15:24:35 -0500 Subject: spey taper I am looking for any tapers for 12 to 15 foot spey rods. from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Wed Feb 23 14:31:04 2000 0500 Subject: texas fishing Forgive me for going a bit off subject. I'm going to be attending aconference in Austin, TX the first week of April and, although my time isscheduled pretty tightly, I might be able to grab a few hours for piscinefoolery. Anybody know what kind of fishing there is in that neighborhoodthat time of year, if any? from wiljette@nmia.com Wed Feb 23 15:21:39 2000 via sendmail with smtp (Smail-3.2.0.106 1999-Mar-31 #3 built 1999-Apr-19) Subject: Re: cork grip source Darin: Try Angler's Workshop at http://www.anglersworkshop.com. I havenofinancial interest in the company. They sell excellent products at fairprices and their service is outstanding.They have a wide range of corkringsand grips. Will Jette ----- Original Message ----- Subject: cork grip source Good morning, Does anyone have a source for cork grips or cork rings? Thanks,Darin Law from channer1@rmi.net Wed Feb 23 20:41:50 2000 Subject: test is there anybody in there? from ernie2@pacbell.net Wed Feb 23 20:49:35 2000 sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8)with SMTP id for Subject: Mating brass ferrules I have read how some nickel silver ferrules need to be fitted to each other.Do chrome plated brass ferrules need this procedure? If so how is it donewithout damaging the chrome?Ernie Harrison from cadams46@juno.com Wed Feb 23 21:16:32 2000 22:15:22 EST Subject: Re:Mating Brass Ferrules Ernie, I assume your talking about the lower cost brass ferrules. Most oftheguys on here who have used them including me say they aren't worth thetime, use quality ones in the first place and you'll be happier. Anywayall the crome plated ferrules I've ever seen come fitted, no matingrequired.C.R. Adams I have read how some nickel silver ferrules need to be fitted to eachother.Do chrome plated brass ferrules need this procedure? If so how is itdonewithout damaging the chrome?Ernie Harrison from caneman@clnk.com Wed Feb 23 21:58:20 2000 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com for ;Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:55:21 -0600 Subject: Brass Ferrules??? This has been bouncing around in my mind for several days, so I gotta ask.Why do we use Nickel Silver for ferrule material. This is, I understand,the standard among American Rodmakers, but there are some veryreputableEuropean rodmakers that use brass. After all, basically, Nickel silver is"almost" brass, and looking at Data sheets on Nickel and "Cartridge Brass",the stresses and hardness, while not exactly matched, are reasonableclose.I know that a lot of the old production rods that used brass (nickel orchrome plated) ferrules ended up cracked, but I have a rod here that I amabout to restore that has brass spiked ferrules, is close to 100 years oldand this thing is tight and right and the fit is still great on theferrules.I have never used anything but Nickel Silver, but only because that iswhat I learned to use. Is Cartridge Brass just as good? Is there a reasonthat Nickel Silver (aka White Brass) is used other than aesthetics? Bob from flytyr@southshore.com Wed Feb 23 22:09:02 2000 0600 Subject: Re: Mating Brass Ferrules I have to agree to that 100%. Had bad luck with the cheap brass ferrule onRod # 1. Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Chase R Adams wrote: Ernie,I assume your talking about the lower cost brass ferrules. Most oftheguys on here who have used them including me say they aren't worth thetime, use quality ones in the first place and you'll be happier. Anywayall the crome plated ferrules I've ever seen come fitted, no matingrequired.C.R. Adams I have read how some nickel silver ferrules need to be fitted to eachother.Do chrome plated brass ferrules need this procedure? If so how is itdonewithout damaging the chrome?Ernie Harrison from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Feb 23 23:27:59 2000 E-Mail VirusWallNT); Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:09:26 +0800 (5.5.2650.21) Rod Makers List Serve Subject: RE: Brass Ferrules??? Hi Bob, I've been led to believe that nickel silver is renowned for not sticking toitself and is very resistant to corrosion. Past that, I don't know. Mike -----Original Message----- This has been bouncing around in my mind for several days.Is there a reason that Nickel Silver (aka White Brass) is used other thanaesthetics? Bob from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Feb 24 01:04:36 2000 Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:04:19 +0800 Subject: Re: Brass Ferrules??? I think it's an American thing. NS always looks shiny whereas the yellowbrass and bronzes will start looking tarnished after a while unless youprevent it by coating it or buffing from time to time.I know the red coloured bronze ferrules look very nice, just like a newlyminted "copper" coin. NS is a type of bronze and cartridge cases are alsobronze not brass.I've heard NS sort of self lubricates but I'm not to sure about that. Tony At 09:56 PM 2/23/00 -0600, Bob Nunley wrote:This has been bouncing around in my mind for several days, so I gotta ask.Why do we use Nickel Silver for ferrule material. This is, I understand,the standard among American Rodmakers, but there are some veryreputableEuropean rodmakers that use brass. After all, basically, Nickel silver is"almost" brass, and looking at Data sheets on Nickel and "CartridgeBrass",the stresses and hardness, while not exactly matched, are reasonableclose.I know that a lot of the old production rods that used brass (nickel orchrome plated) ferrules ended up cracked, but I have a rod here that I amabout to restore that has brass spiked ferrules, is close to 100 years oldand this thing is tight and right and the fit is still great on theferrules.I have never used anything but Nickel Silver, but only because that iswhat I learned to use. Is Cartridge Brass just as good? Is there a reasonthat Nickel Silver (aka White Brass) is used other than aesthetics? Bob /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Feb 24 01:21:12 2000 Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:20:53 +0800 Subject: Re: Brass Ferrules??? Something else that comes to mind is brass is death on a stick if you useit in a critical situation in a marine enviroment. It can look perfectly okbut fail due to either or both fatigue and corrosion. I can remember goingto unfasten a brass nut on a boat and the nut looked ok but just crumbledwhen I used a spanner on it. There are many horror stories about boatshaving brass fittings fail where as bronze of the right type outlastscivilisations. Possibly brass ferrules crack with use for much the samereasons brass fittings fail on boats, ie. fatigue and or corrosion.As I mentioned before NS is a type of bright bronze. So if you likeferrules to remain bright and shiny NS is the perfect choice. Tony At 03:13 PM 2/24/00 +0800, Tony Young wrote:I think it's an American thing. NS always looks shiny whereas the yellowbrass and bronzes will start looking tarnished after a while unless youprevent it by coating it or buffing from time to time.I know the red coloured bronze ferrules look very nice, just like a newlyminted "copper" coin. NS is a type of bronze and cartridge cases are alsobronze not brass.I've heard NS sort of self lubricates but I'm not to sure about that. Tony At 09:56 PM 2/23/00 -0600, Bob Nunley wrote:This has been bouncing around in my mind for several days, so I gottaask.Why do we use Nickel Silver for ferrule material. This is, I understand,the standard among American Rodmakers, but there are some veryreputableEuropean rodmakers that use brass. After all, basically, Nickel silver is"almost" brass, and looking at Data sheets on Nickel and "CartridgeBrass",the stresses and hardness, while not exactly matched, are reasonableclose.I know that a lot of the old production rods that used brass (nickel orchrome plated) ferrules ended up cracked, but I have a rod here that I amabout to restore that has brass spiked ferrules, is close to 100 years oldand this thing is tight and right and the fit is still great on theferrules.I have never used anything but Nickel Silver, but only because that iswhat I learned to use. Is Cartridge Brass just as good? Is there areasonthat Nickel Silver (aka White Brass) is used other than aesthetics? Bob /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Feb 24 01:24:29 2000 Subject: Re: Mating brass ferrules Chrome plated brass ferrules, as others have commented, are usuallyfittedalready. If you try to reduce the outside diameter of a plated brassferrules by polishing it you'll find you'll quickly go through the chromeand expose the brass. If however it should occur that the ferrule fit isloose the female OD can be carefully compressed to obtain a proper fit.Please note too that there are some pretty good bronze ferrules that havebeen furnished in the past on some rods such as Winston. These are notchrome plated and can be fitted just like the nickel silver ferrules.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Mating brass ferrules I have read how some nickel silver ferrules need to be fitted to eachother.Do chrome plated brass ferrules need this procedure? If so how is itdonewithout damaging the chrome?Ernie Harrison from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Feb 24 01:32:37 2000 Subject: Re: Brass Ferrules??? Hi Bob,Nickel silver not only looks nicer than brass but it is corrosion resistantand stronger. I've seen many many chrome plated brass ferrules that havecracked longitudinally, or bent or broken or corroded. That's somethingthatis a rare occurence with nickel silver.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Brass Ferrules??? This has been bouncing around in my mind for several days, so I gottaask.Why do we use Nickel Silver for ferrule material. This is, I understand,the standard among American Rodmakers, but there are some veryreputableEuropean rodmakers that use brass. After all, basically, Nickel silver is"almost" brass, and looking at Data sheets on Nickel and "CartridgeBrass",the stresses and hardness, while not exactly matched, are reasonableclose.I know that a lot of the old production rods that used brass (nickelorchrome plated) ferrules ended up cracked, but I have a rod here that I amabout to restore that has brass spiked ferrules, is close to 100 years oldand this thing is tight and right and the fit is still great on theferrules.I have never used anything but Nickel Silver, but only because that iswhat I learned to use. Is Cartridge Brass just as good? Is there areasonthat Nickel Silver (aka White Brass) is used other than aesthetics? Bob from mschaffer@mindspring.com Thu Feb 24 03:20:50 2000 Subject: What's up? Guys,I haven't gotten very many emails from the List lately, and was justwondering if I was having a problem at this end, or was the List especiallyquiet lately? Mike from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Feb 24 06:09:07 2000 Subject: swelled butts? I was wondering, on swelled butt rods what do you do about the reelseat and grip? Do you leave the huge butt and go with big holes in thecork and a large reel seat to cover or was it common to turn that areadown some? Shawn from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Feb 24 06:16:18 2000 Subject: Heat tempering I am confused about this heat treating thing. I make mostly flamed rodswhich I leave way oversize out of initial planing. Some say that heattempering after flaming isn't really necessary except to relax thestrips others say cook it same as if it were blonde. What gives. Add tothat that I am in Canada and often it doesn't say whether the temp is incelsius or farenheihgt.Anyone have a general rule of thumb? Shawn from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu Feb 24 06:28:44 2000 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19);Thu, 24 Feb 2000 06:18:18 -0600 Subject: Re: Brass Ferrules??? from what I know about "machine shop" metallurgy, the addition of nickeltothe basic brass formula, gives much better corrosion resistance. yetretainsits "free machining" characteristics. I have FG rods, fitted with brassSuper Z's, that I bought in the 1960's. After an almost 20 year lay off, allI had to do is clean these ferrules, and they are still tight. Had they beenstored near our Texas coast, where the saline content is at least 4 xhigherthan say, Fla., it would have been a different story. Nickel itself is a tough material to machine, and is one of the mainingredients of stainless steel, i.e. Iconel. etc.. The N.S. is just the bestcompromise, for easier machining vs, long life without corrosion. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Brass Ferrules??? This has been bouncing around in my mind for several days, so I gottaask.Why do we use Nickel Silver for ferrule material. This is, I understand,the standard among American Rodmakers, but there are some veryreputableEuropean rodmakers that use brass. After all, basically, Nickel silver is"almost" brass, and looking at Data sheets on Nickel and "CartridgeBrass",the stresses and hardness, while not exactly matched, are reasonableclose.I know that a lot of the old production rods that used brass (nickelorchrome plated) ferrules ended up cracked, but I have a rod here that I amabout to restore that has brass spiked ferrules, is close to 100 years oldand this thing is tight and right and the fit is still great on theferrules.I have never used anything but Nickel Silver, but only because that iswhat I learned to use. Is Cartridge Brass just as good? Is there areasonthat Nickel Silver (aka White Brass) is used other than aesthetics? Bob from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Feb 24 06:37:04 2000 0400 Subject: Re: Heat tempering I forgot to add that I use a vertical heat gun type oven like the one onFrank's page. :^0 ShawnShawn Pineo wrote: I am confused about this heat treating thing. I make mostly flamed rodswhich I leave way oversize out of initial planing. Some say that heattempering after flaming isn't really necessary except to relax thestrips others say cook it same as if it were blonde. What gives. Add tothat that I am in Canada and often it doesn't say whether the temp is incelsius or farenheihgt.Anyone have a general rule of thumb? Shawn from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Feb 24 07:07:58 2000 Subject: Re: swelled butts? Hi Shawn,I turn the bamboo down under the reel seat to fit the wood insert bore. Theeffect of the swelled butt in the rod action takes place from the cork gripforward.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: swelled butts? I was wondering, on swelled butt rods what do you do about the reelseat and grip? Do you leave the huge butt and go with big holes in thecork and a large reel seat to cover or was it common to turn that areadown some? Shawn from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Feb 24 07:18:55 2000 Subject: Re: Brass Ferrules??? In a message dated 2/24/0 12:33:41 PM, nobler@satx.rr.com writes: I believe bronze would also work fine. The brasses are just not as toughand won't give the service life. The failures that Tony observes in salt water are caused by the fact that the zinc can leach out of the brass,particularly if stray electrical currents are present in the salt water, a common condition around a boat. In effect, you are left with a copper sponge that will fail with any stress. That would not be a problem in a ferrule, but fatigue life would. I would stay away from brass, but consider one of the bronzes if you like that color. They also have the "greasy" quality, which is why they are used in bearings. from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Feb 24 07:20:15 2000 Subject: Re: Heat tempering Hi Shawn,Heat treating after flaming probably isn't necessary if the strips are madequickly after the flaming and if the strips are kept in a warm dryatmosphere to maintain the dryness. It won't hurt the strips to heat treatthem in your oven again after planing, however. The studies I've seen showthat the moisture level in cane as it comes to us is about 12-13%. Heattreating can drive it down to zero or close to it and then the cane takes onmoisture from the room conditions and goes back up to about 6% or so. Youwant to glue the rod when the moisture level is in the 5-6% range.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Heat tempering I am confused about this heat treating thing. I make mostly flamed rodswhich I leave way oversize out of initial planing. Some say that heattempering after flaming isn't really necessary except to relax thestrips others say cook it same as if it were blonde. What gives. Add tothat that I am in Canada and often it doesn't say whether the temp is incelsius or farenheihgt.Anyone have a general rule of thumb? Shawn from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Feb 24 07:50:27 2000 Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:49:42 +0800 Subject: Re: Brass Ferrules??? Actually this is an interesting subject. I took a few minitues to dig outmy old Materials Of Engineering book and read cartridge cases are indeedbrass made of about 70% copper and the rest zinc. Sorry for writing beforethese were bronze.It's the zinc content that causes the problems with brass in a marineenviroment.Anybody around boats would know of zinc sacrifical annodes whichmagicalydisolve as time goes by.It seems that in order to get enough "toughness" too much zinc is neededwhich hardens the alloy in such a way it is prone to fatigue so brassrequires annealing to remain workable. Rifle cartridges after many firingsloose their annealing and split.I admit I glossed over a lot to come to that conclusion but that seems thegist of it.This seems to just make brass a bad choice in the long run for anythinghaving cyclic stress such as a ferrule. Bronzes are made of copper and tin as well as lots of other metalsdepending on what you want to do with it. The tin is more "noble" than zincso doesn't corrode nearly as quickly. Nickel has about the same mass as copper so an alloy including nickel isabout as heavy as pure copper. Nickel also has similer charistics to iron in that it has high tensilestrength, a high modulus of elasticity and a high resistance to elongation.It's also reasonably resistant to corrosion in water and the atmosphere.Monel is about 65% nickel and 35% copper and various other metals for theremainder.It only takes 5% nickel and the remainder copper to make the alloy look"silver" and this is the mixture used in Australian 5, 10 & 20 cent coins,probably the same most everywhere else too.NS being mostly copper, tin and nickel then would have a great deal ofthings going for it. The nickel in NS would seem to indicate NS ferruleswould be less prone to belling in the female than a bronze with no orlittle nickel due to it's tensile strength and resistance to elongation. All up, you'd be hard pressed to find a beter alloy to use when youconsider all the good points and add it's reasonably easy to work anddoesn't cost an arm and a leg. Monel is prob the only alloy I can think ofthat may have better working charistics but it does cost an arm and a legand is hard to work.The old boys made a good choice. Tony At 06:30 AM 2/24/00 -0600, nobler wrote: from what I know about "machine shop" metallurgy, the addition ofnickel tothe basic brass formula, gives much better corrosion resistance. yetretainsits "free machining" characteristics. I have FG rods, fitted with brassSuper Z's, that I bought in the 1960's. After an almost 20 year lay off, allI had to do is clean these ferrules, and they are still tight. Had they beenstored near our Texas coast, where the saline content is at least 4 xhigherthan say, Fla., it would have been a different story. Nickel itself is a tough material to machine, and is one of the mainingredients of stainless steel, i.e. Iconel. etc.. The N.S. is just the bestcompromise, for easier machining vs, long life without corrosion. GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 9:56 PMSubject: Brass Ferrules??? This has been bouncing around in my mind for several days, so I gottaask.Why do we use Nickel Silver for ferrule material. This is, I understand,the standard among American Rodmakers, but there are some veryreputableEuropean rodmakers that use brass. After all, basically, Nickel silver is"almost" brass, and looking at Data sheets on Nickel and "CartridgeBrass",the stresses and hardness, while not exactly matched, are reasonableclose.I know that a lot of the old production rods that used brass (nickelorchrome plated) ferrules ended up cracked, but I have a rod here that Iamabout to restore that has brass spiked ferrules, is close to 100 yearsoldand this thing is tight and right and the fit is still great on theferrules.I have never used anything but Nickel Silver, but only because that iswhat I learned to use. Is Cartridge Brass just as good? Is there areasonthat Nickel Silver (aka White Brass) is used other than aesthetics? Bob /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from morten@flash.net Thu Feb 24 07:56:06 2000 Subject: Re: texas fishing Seth,Contact Joe Robinson at the Austin Angler, 312 1/2 Congress Ave. 512-4724553. Joe is a true expert fishing the area. The store is also worth avisit.Morten-- 3119 Georgia Pine Dr.Spring, TX 77373(281) 353 5725http://www.flash.net/~morten from webandersen@webtv.net Thu Feb 24 09:26:51 2000 223.iap.bryant.webtv.net ESMTP id C5212619D 223.iap.bryant.webtv.net(8.8.8-wtv-e/mt.gso.26Feb98) id HAA16763; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 07:26:48 - ETAuAhUAnLvV7OZCT//LiOYKjQw91nzIp2YCFQCJsH0DBRm0UpCXFqAVBbokWAGsYg== Subject: Nickle Silver Does anybody know where to buy 18% NS bar?Have tried Busby Metals and Corey Steel. They both say they only carry12% bar/ TIA, Webb from scan.oest@post.tele.dk Thu Feb 24 09:38:00 2000 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP +0100 Subject: Sv: Brass Ferrules some months ago I restored a spey rod, british built, from 1908. Theferrules were brassand stil had a close fit. I've seen lots of old, european rods with brassferrules - noproblems. Theoretically I agree NS is more hard-wearing. In the real world it isdifferent: brassseems to do OK. So if You, like me, like that deep shine from an old brass ferrule, go forthand makethem. A polishing once a year will keep them nice. regards, Carsten from ECKTOR_66@YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 24 12:34:59 2000 2000 10:38:58 PST Subject: Heat tolerance of Titebond II My first nodeless rod is bound and on the bench andneeds a bit of straightening... hopefully this problemwill be minimized on subsequent nodeless rods, butright now I'm faced with trying to straighten theblank. The splices are glued with Titebond II... theblank glued with Epon. Should I risk splice failures or live with a slight sweep in the tip section? I'd really like to avoid splice failures at thispoint! Thanks in advance. Eck__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.http://im.yahoo.com from rmoon@ida.net Thu Feb 24 13:20:19 2000 0000 Subject: Re: Heat tolerance of Titebond II boundary="------------D5473C4AD08DD66D4D61A610" --------------D5473C4AD08DD66D4D61A610 Leave Your heatgun alone. It is too hot. Get an alcohol burner. Usethose precision thermometers on the end of your hands. Any time therod is too hot to touch you have. heated it too much. Keep thetemperature of the rod at a comfortable heat on your fingers. andreheat numerous times. Remember you are not trying to sear the steak,you want it to cook all the way through. It may take an hour to do thework, but don't be impatient Titebond II is ok under thoseconditions. Still you should probably practice on somethingnon-critical. Ralph --------------D5473C4AD08DD66D4D61A610 comfortable numerous non-critical.Ralph --------------D5473C4AD08DD66D4D61A610-- from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Feb 24 14:55:05 2000 Subject: RE: Heat tolerance of Titebond II (for both scarfs and sections). I've had good luck straightening them overmy wife's 1200 watt hand held hair dryer. The sections have been fairlystraight but I have had to take a bit of a curve out of a butt section -- noproblem. Tips of course are easier. I believe it's easier to avoidoverheating with a hairdryer than a shop-style heat gun. The hot-fingerstest works for me, too. B. Kling -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Heat tolerance of Titebond II Leave Your heatgun alone. It is too hot. Get an alcohol burner. Use thoseprecision thermometers on the end of your hands. Any time the rod is toohot to touch you have. heated it too much. Keep the temperature of therod at a comfortable heat on your fingers. and reheat numerous times.Remember you are not trying to sear the steak, you want it to cook all theway through. It may take an hour to do the work, but don't be impatientTitebond II is ok under those conditions. Still you should probablypractice on something non-critical. Ralph from watson@cape-consult.co.uk Thu Feb 24 16:12:29 2000 Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:12:13 GMT Subject: Re: Brass Ferrules??? I restore rods in the UK and the majority (80%-90%) of those that I seehavebrass ferrules. Very few of them have ferrule problems, remaining a goodtight fit. All of my own coarse rods have brass ferrules includingAllcocks, Constables, Priory and others. I have seen B. James, Davenport &Fordham, Sharpe's of Aberdeen, Chapman's etc all with brass and they arefine after many, many years of use. It is certainly true that NS is thebetter material but the availability is, and was, an issue. The mainproblem with brass is its propensity to split up the ferrule from the topofthe cut where the tangs are made - so the split appears from under thewhipping. The cure for this is to drill a very, very tiny hole (use medicaldrills) at the top of the cut which inhibits crack propogation and is arecognised engineering procedure for this. (Equally if you have a split inmetal and are unable to effect an immediate repair the cracking can besuccessfully stopped using a similar method - I have done it a number oftimes on Grand Prix racing yacht masts and prevented failure until the endof the regatta when the proper repair could be done).Tim. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Brass Ferrules??? Actually this is an interesting subject. I took a few minitues to dig outmy old Materials Of Engineering book and read cartridge cases are indeedbrass made of about 70% copper and the rest zinc. Sorry for writingbeforethese were bronze.It's the zinc content that causes the problems with brass in a marineenviroment.Anybody around boats would know of zinc sacrifical annodes whichmagicalydisolve as time goes by.It seems that in order to get enough "toughness" too much zinc is neededwhich hardens the alloy in such a way it is prone to fatigue so brassrequires annealing to remain workable. Rifle cartridges after manyfiringsloose their annealing and split.I admit I glossed over a lot to come to that conclusion but that seemsthegist of it.This seems to just make brass a bad choice in the long run for anythinghaving cyclic stress such as a ferrule. Bronzes are made of copper and tin as well as lots of other metalsdepending on what you want to do with it. The tin is more "noble" thanzincso doesn't corrode nearly as quickly. Nickel has about the same mass as copper so an alloy including nickel isabout as heavy as pure copper.Nickel also has similer charistics to iron in that it has high tensilestrength, a high modulus of elasticity and a high resistance toelongation.It's also reasonably resistant to corrosion in water and the atmosphere.Monel is about 65% nickel and 35% copper and various other metals fortheremainder.It only takes 5% nickel and the remainder copper to make the alloy look"silver" and this is the mixture used in Australian 5, 10 & 20 cent coins,probably the same most everywhere else too.NS being mostly copper, tin and nickel then would have a great deal ofthings going for it. The nickel in NS would seem to indicate NS ferruleswould be less prone to belling in the female than a bronze with no orlittle nickel due to it's tensile strength and resistance to elongation. All up, you'd be hard pressed to find a beter alloy to use when youconsider all the good points and add it's reasonably easy to work anddoesn't cost an arm and a leg. Monel is prob the only alloy I can think ofthat may have better working charistics but it does cost an arm and alegand is hard to work.The old boys made a good choice. Tony At 06:30 AM 2/24/00 -0600, nobler wrote: from what I know about "machine shop" metallurgy, the addition ofnickeltothe basic brass formula, gives much better corrosion resistance. yetretainsits "free machining" characteristics. I have FG rods, fitted with brassSuper Z's, that I bought in the 1960's. After an almost 20 year lay off,allI had to do is clean these ferrules, and they are still tight. Had theybeenstored near our Texas coast, where the saline content is at least 4 xhigherthan say, Fla., it would have been a different story. Nickel itself is a tough material to machine, and is one of the mainingredients of stainless steel, i.e. Iconel. etc.. The N.S. is just thebestcompromise, for easier machining vs, long life without corrosion. GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 9:56 PMSubject: Brass Ferrules??? This has been bouncing around in my mind for several days, so I gottaask.Why do we use Nickel Silver for ferrule material. This is, Iunderstand,the standard among American Rodmakers, but there are some veryreputableEuropean rodmakers that use brass. After all, basically, Nickel silveris"almost" brass, and looking at Data sheets on Nickel and "CartridgeBrass",the stresses and hardness, while not exactly matched, are reasonableclose.I know that a lot of the old production rods that used brass(nickelorchrome plated) ferrules ended up cracked, but I have a rod here that Iamabout to restore that has brass spiked ferrules, is close to 100 yearsoldand this thing is tight and right and the fit is still great on theferrules.I have never used anything but Nickel Silver, but only because thatiswhat I learned to use. Is Cartridge Brass just as good? Is there areasonthat Nickel Silver (aka White Brass) is used other than aesthetics? Bob /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Feb 24 18:56:40 2000 Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:56:28 -0500 Subject: Re: swelled butts? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0072_01BF7F01.36198440" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BF7F01.36198440 I like to reduce the diameter of the swelled butt, beginning immediately =behind the first cork ring. I turn the stick down to about 3/8" and =extend this diameter right on back to the end of the reel seat. I am =eager to get rid of useless weight, and especially so right in the grip = cheers, Bill Subject: Re: swelled butts? Hi Shawn,I turn the bamboo down under the reel seat to fit the wood insert =bore. Theeffect of the swelled butt in the rod action takes place from the cork =gripforward.Ray----- Original Message -----From: Shawn Pineo Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 4:01 AMSubject: swelled butts? I was wondering, on swelled butt rods what do you do about the reelseat and grip? Do you leave the huge butt and go with big holes in =thecork and a large reel seat to cover or was it common to turn that =areadown some? Shawn ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BF7F01.36198440 Shawn, I liketo = diameter of the swelled butt, beginning immediately behind the first = kills the crispness of a rod's action. cheers, = Original Message ----- From: Ray Gould = 24, = = and grip? Do you leave the huge butt and go with big holes in = ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BF7F01.36198440-- from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Thu Feb 24 19:03:52 2000 E-Mail VirusWallNT); Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:00:36 +0800 (5.5.2650.21) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Heat tolerance of Titebond II Yahooo!!! Another nodeless builder. God, I can hardly believe it. Wecometo the dark side Eric Canewalker. Ralph is right Eric. Titebond II is pretty touchy stuff when it comes toheat tolerence. I straightened the rough strips on my first rod before Ibegan planing, even though I found out afterwards that this is notnecessary. I wore leather gloves and performed the operation over atoaster(Tony Young's idea) which is ideal because you have a long narrow strip ofheat which you can control by moving the item being treated closer orfurther away. There is a VERY fine line between enough heat to straightenbamboo and that required to make Titebond II fail. On the spliced stripsone joint gave way with virtually no warning. I felt a slight slipping andbingo, I was the not so proud owner of one failed scarf joint. The spliceswere cleaned up and reglued and the finished rod has been thoroughly fieldtested. No problems so far.I had cause to scarf a complete hex section onto the butt of anotherrod which had the scarfs joined with Titebond II and the blank glued upwithResourcinol. I used Resourcinol for this job and ended up with aslightbend in the blank (only three or four degrees) just ahead of wherethehandgrip was going to stop. Being worried about the Titebond II scarfs, Idid a sort of giant guide wrap with lacemaking thread that covered theentire section to be straightened and fired up the trusty toaster. Again,no problem so far.I'd say that fairly gentle heating over a prolonged period is theway to go. Good luck. Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: Heat tolerance of Titebond II My first nodeless rod is bound and on the bench andneeds a bit of straightening... hopefully this problemwill be minimized on subsequent nodeless rods, butright now I'm faced with trying to straighten theblank. The splices are glued with Titebond II... theblank glued with Epon. Should I risk splice failures or live with a slight sweep in the tip section? I'd really like to avoid splice failures at thispoint! Thanks in advance. Eck__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.http://im.yahoo.com from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu Feb 24 19:48:21 2000 Subject: Re: Nickle Silver Webb,The only place that you can get 18% N/S bar, is fromSheffield's Knife makers supply, in Fla. But, they only carry itin small sizes. 1/4 in.-3/16in. ,etc. I have looked for many years Bar stock from Busby for years, to make real seats, windingchecks, even large ferrules for Spey Rods. I finally gave up looking stock. Also, I don't think you have ever tried to bore 18% barstock. This stuff is extremely hard and over heats like titanium.It's not easy to work with. It's not like working with 18% tubing. Dave LeClair http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu Feb 24 20:16:45 2000 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19);Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:05:33 -0600 Subject: Re: Nickle Silver I found 18% N.S. at Texas Knife Makers, in Houston, but they only have3/16", and 1/4" too. The price was decent though. I found a company inGalveston, Tex., that had the correct 18% listed, but they never came backwith pricing, on rod stock. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Nickle Silver Webb,The only place that you can get 18% N/S bar, is fromSheffield's Knife makers supply, in Fla. But, they only carry itin small sizes. 1/4 in.-3/16in. ,etc. I have looked for many years Bar stock from Busby for years, to make real seats, windingchecks, even large ferrules for Spey Rods. I finally gave up looking stock. Also, I don't think you have ever tried to bore 18% barstock. This stuff is extremely hard and over heats like titanium.It's not easy to work with. It's not like working with 18% tubing. Dave LeClair http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from martinjensen@home.com Thu Feb 24 21:00:38 2000 (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP ;Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:00:34 -0800 Subject: RE: Heat tolerance of Titebond II You might consider placing the guides on the blank so as to minimize thecurve. It's not perfect but you do have 6 locations to choose from. I don'tnormally use this method to locate my guides but I would probablyconsiderit depending on the conditions. This sounds like one of those conditionswhere I might just consider it. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Heat tolerance of Titebond II My first nodeless rod is bound and on the bench andneeds a bit of straightening... hopefully this problemwill be minimized on subsequent nodeless rods, butright now I'm faced with trying to straighten theblank. The splices are glued with Titebond II... theblank glued with Epon. Should I risk splice failures or live with a slight sweep in the tip section? I'd really like to avoid splice failures at thispoint! Thanks in advance. Eck__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.http://im.yahoo.com from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Thu Feb 24 22:23:07 2000 Subject: Texas fishing Seth-I'll second Morten's suggestion. I've visited the Austin Angler...niceguys. They'll know what's available in the area and they carry bamboo rodstoo. Dennis from mrmac@tcimet.net Thu Feb 24 23:09:49 2000 (envelope- from mrmac@tcimet.net) Subject: Re: Nickle Silver What about titanium as a ferrule material? Although it sounds like itmight be difficult to work with, wouldn't it have many of the desirableproperties of good stuff for a ferrule - strong, lightweight, and corrosionresistant? Is it *real* hard to work with? mac LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: Webb,The only place that you can get 18% N/S bar, is fromSheffield's Knife makers supply, in Fla. But, they only carry itin small sizes. 1/4 in.-3/16in. ,etc. I have looked for many years Bar stock from Busby for years, to make real seats, windingchecks, even large ferrules for Spey Rods. I finally gave up looking stock. Also, I don't think you have ever tried to bore 18% barstock. This stuff is extremely hard and over heats like titanium.It's not easy to work with. It's not like working with 18% tubing. Dave LeClair http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Fri Feb 25 00:42:45 2000 Subject: rod builders directory Hi, Occasionally I hear of people looking for a good bamboo rod. Since I amstill working on my first I'll pass. I there a directory of the "qualified" rod builders I can point people to?I was just chatting with someone who just returned a rod he had got froma"production bamboo company" and he is looking for a real bamboo rod. Paul from destinycon@mindspring.com Fri Feb 25 07:03:45 2000 Subject: Re: Nickle Silver As I told Webb yesterday, Specialty Steel at:has C75200-rounds listed in stockupto 6". Their minimum order is $350.00. If anyone is ordering in reel seatsizes please include me. Thanks.Gary H. At 08:47 PM 2/24/00 EST, LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote:Webb,The only place that you can get 18% N/S bar, is fromSheffield's Knife makers supply, in Fla. But, they only carry itin small sizes. 1/4 in.-3/16in. ,etc. I have looked for many years Bar stock from Busby for years, to make real seats, windingchecks, even large ferrules for Spey Rods. I finally gave up looking stock. Also, I don't think you have ever tried to bore 18% barstock. This stuff is extremely hard and over heats like titanium.It's not easy to work with. It's not like working with 18% tubing. Dave LeClair http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html Laura J. Heidt Destiny Consultants404.286-0527 phone from nobler@satx.rr.com Fri Feb 25 07:34:40 2000 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19);Fri, 25 Feb 2000 07:35:22 -0600 Subject: Re: rod builders directory Rodmakers has a good list. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: rod builders directory Hi, Occasionally I hear of people looking for a good bamboo rod. Since I amstill working on my first I'll pass. I there a directory of the "qualified" rod builders I can point people to?I was just chatting with someone who just returned a rod he had got from a"production bamboo company" and he is looking for a real bamboo rod. Paul from nobler@satx.rr.com Fri Feb 25 07:43:54 2000 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19);Fri, 25 Feb 2000 07:44:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Nickle Silver Titanium is a terrific mat'l., and we have high performance 2- cycleenginesrunning at over 30,000 rpm's using this metal for crankshafts, andconnecting rods ! However, it work hardens very quickly, requiring tools from carbide to diamond, to cut it properly. Just for ref. a diamond turning tool costs over $200, and a 3/16" dia. endmill is around $370 ! I feel pretty safe in saying the reason we see failures in the rolled weltfemale ferrules, made from chrome plated brass, are due to thin walleddrawntubing. The Super Z ferrules I have are machined from raw brass stock,thicker walled, and have the advantage of some work hardening from themachining operations. What a shame they are no longer made, as my localtackle shop had the for less than $5/pair, back in the 1960's, and I'venever had one fail. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Nickle Silver What about titanium as a ferrule material? Although it sounds like itmight be difficult to work with, wouldn't it have many of the desirableproperties of good stuff for a ferrule - strong, lightweight, andcorrosionresistant? Is it *real* hard to work with? mac LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: Webb,The only place that you can get 18% N/S bar, is fromSheffield's Knife makers supply, in Fla. But, they only carry itin small sizes. 1/4 in.-3/16in. ,etc. I have looked for many years Bar stock from Busby for years, to make real seats, windingchecks, even large ferrules for Spey Rods. I finally gave up looking stock. Also, I don't think you have ever tried to bore 18% barstock. This stuff is extremely hard and over heats like titanium.It's not easy to work with. It's not like working with 18% tubing. Dave LeClair http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Feb 25 08:38:00 2000 Fri, 25 Feb 2000 06:37:40 -0800 Subject: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Paul,There is a relatively new organization known as the "Custom RodmakersGuild." For more information, see this link: http://www.rodguild.com/Whilethat organization is primarily graphite centered, at least some bamboorodmakers attended their first Conclave last weekend. I am not a member,yet,and was not able to attend the Conclave.We have batted around the idea of a Guild on this list before. Yourquestion makes me wonder if the time is right for some discussion of thebenefits of Guild membership? Are any of you folks members of theGuild? Ifso, would you mind sharing your thoughts? Did any of you on the listattendthe Conclave? Give Demo's? What are your thoughts? Thanks,Harry Paul Goodwin wrote: Hi, Occasionally I hear of people looking for a good bamboo rod. Since I amstill working on my first I'll pass. I there a directory of the "qualified" rod builders I can point people to?I was just chatting with someone who just returned a rod he had got from a"production bamboo company" and he is looking for a real bamboo rod. Paul --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Fri Feb 25 08:54:48 2000 Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:54:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Harry,why not start one just for Bamboo guys! There are certainly enoughbuilders to fill one.Shawn Harry Boyd wrote: Paul,There is a relatively new organization known as the "CustomRodmakersGuild." For more information, see this link: http://www.rodguild.com/Whilethat organization is primarily graphite centered, at least some bamboorodmakers attended their first Conclave last weekend. I am not amember, yet,and was not able to attend the Conclave.We have batted around the idea of a Guild on this list before. Yourquestion makes me wonder if the time is right for some discussion ofthebenefits of Guild membership? Are any of you folks members of theGuild? Ifso, would you mind sharing your thoughts? Did any of you on the listattendthe Conclave? Give Demo's? What are your thoughts? Thanks,Harry Paul Goodwin wrote: Hi, Occasionally I hear of people looking for a good bamboo rod. Since I amstill working on my first I'll pass. I there a directory of the "qualified" rod builders I can point people to?I was just chatting with someone who just returned a rod he had got from a"production bamboo company" and he is looking for a real bamboo rod. Paul --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from caneman@clnk.com Fri Feb 25 09:22:35 2000 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:19:37 -0600 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Harry,I checked into the Guild once. I don't know. Seems to me, that if youwant to pay a fee then you can join the guild and be "reputable". A "guild"would not be a bad idea at all, if there were some qualifications for beinga member and being listed, other than just paying a fee. I know a couple of"rodmakers" that are members of the guild (not cane scrapers... plasticpeople), and some are good, some are just riding the guild list while theylearn how to assemble composite rods. I think the Guild has set it'smembership high enough that it intends to keep all but the professionalrodmakers out, however, references, or any other evidence that one istrulya rodmaker, are not required. That, in my opinion, kind of compromises theintegrity of the list.I would like to see a good rodmakers guild, but what would qualify oneto be a member? Quite frankly, I would like to see a cane rodmakers guild,dedicated to our craft. I just don't want to see an organization whereANYONE can join and get his or her name on a list of Rodmakers. What,though, would be the determining factor(s) of whether one was really arodmaker or not? Back to the coffee pot!Bob-----Original Message----- Subject: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Paul,There is a relatively new organization known as the "CustomRodmakersGuild." For more information, see this link: http://www.rodguild.com/Whilethat organization is primarily graphite centered, at least some bamboorodmakers attended their first Conclave last weekend. I am not amember,yet,and was not able to attend the Conclave.We have batted around the idea of a Guild on this list before. Yourquestion makes me wonder if the time is right for some discussion of thebenefits of Guild membership? Are any of you folks members of theGuild?Ifso, would you mind sharing your thoughts? Did any of you on the listattendthe Conclave? Give Demo's? What are your thoughts? Thanks,Harry Paul Goodwin wrote: Hi, Occasionally I hear of people looking for a good bamboo rod. Since I amstill working on my first I'll pass. I there a directory of the "qualified" rod builders I can point peopleto?I was just chatting with someone who just returned a rod he had gotfroma"production bamboo company" and he is looking for a real bamboo rod. Paul --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from jmulvey@mis1.ci.newton.ma.us Fri Feb 25 09:31:15 2000 25 Feb 100 10:32:04 EST EST Subject: Old Rod Help Hi All,A friend of a friend has a pair of old Philipson rods - they look like very old fiberglass in a shade of brown that at first, suggests a bamboo rod. One is labeled S76 HDH 3 3/4 oz Fly Rod The other is a casting rod: POWR CAST Lures to 1/2 OZ Does anyone have a ballpark value for these? I'd like to be able to tell this nice gentleman whether or not he should let his grandchildren use them! Thanks so much,Joe Mulvey from rmoon@ida.net Fri Feb 25 09:47:20 2000 0000 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Just my opinion, but I do not like the idea of any sort of guild. Ifeel, for example, that I have achieved a state of contentment for myabilities, and I would resent very much anyone trying to decide if Iqualified for a guild or what. I know my peers and respect them, but Ican tell you that there are some things I do better than anybody(besides shoot off my mouth), and some things I do a terrible jog of. Ifail to see any advantages to belonging to such a guild. For sure wedon't need to band together for trade protection. I can see a number ofnegative factors. Someone, somewhere and sometimes is going to see theguild as a personl form of power and begin to attempt to control the wayits members perform. I want none of that., I have seen it many timesbefore. Those of us who are rodmakers know what is going on out there,and if someone does not, then he should work to learn. Ralph from michael@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 25 09:59:27 2000 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Harry sayeth... There is a relatively new organization known as the "CustomRodmakersGuild." For more information, see this link: http://www.rodguild.com/Whilethat organization is primarily graphite centered, at least some bamboorodmakers attended their first Conclave last weekend. I am not amember,yet,and was not able to attend the Conclave.We have batted around the idea of a Guild on this list before. Yourquestion makes me wonder if the time is right for some discussion of thebenefits of Guild membership? Are any of you folks members of theGuild? Ifso, would you mind sharing your thoughts? Did any of you on the listattendthe Conclave? Give Demo's? What are your thoughts? I for one, don't really know what it means to be part of a Guild, in thisday and age. Wasn't it, in medieval times, when technical knowledge wasclosely guarded, that guilds were created. If a person was grantedadmission to a guild, he too could then learn the secrets of the trade. In today's world, I *think* being a member of a guilds says that you aresupposed to be technically competent, and potential customers can feelconfident in purchasing from you. Do you really think this is a fact? Doyou think customers in today's world really look at such things? How canit be governed? What benefits could one realistically expect from being amember? We already have many conclaves in the form of RodmakersGatherings. I am very interested in hearing others thoughts on this also, though itjust seems to me that we are in fact, already a Guild... Mike - lots of questions, not many answers - BiondoSt. Louis, MO from brewer@teleport.com Fri Feb 25 10:31:35 2000 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAAJ0Bm7_; Fri Feb 2508:31:27 2000 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild I agree with Mike. I'm not sure it matters much as this group does seemlikea guild already. That being said, I do like the idea of a bamboo-only guild. It also might benice for bamboo rod buyers to have some way of buying with moreconfidence from unknown makers, and could be helpful to those of us that are newmakers. Anyway, it would have to operate on the honor system, but thisgroupseems very honorable to me. I don't support any mechanism that allows for the 'power trip' problemthatRalph mentions. He's on the mark about that. The man that taught me once said that you don't really have a completeunderstanding until your 100th rod or so and I think he might be rightaboutthat. He's been correct about everything so far! Oh well, 97 more to go. One obvious qualification for guild membership that comes to mind issuccessfully constructing a bamboo rod. Maybe making 10 [or insert yourfavorite number here!] would be a more appropriate level for guildmembership, if the purpose is to identify some level of competency. Perhaps there could be other levels of recognition in the "guild", such asmaking your 100th rod or ... -Randy from rafick@3riversweb.net Fri Feb 25 10:32:47 2000 0000 Subject: re.guild Mike sayeth: I for one, don't really know what it means to be part of a Guild. Seems to me that a guild is a union, in the case of the actors guild a trueunion, if your an actor, and you want to work, you belong to the guild.It is about control, I used to know a pilot who flew aerobatic and oldfighter aircraft for movies, he_ had_ to be a member of the guild, neversawhis face on film, didn't matter, no guild no work. itjust seems to me that we are in fact, already a Guild... I agree, loosely formed, minimal "control" but take a look at the rodmakerssite. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ from eestlow@srminc.com Fri Feb 25 11:12:33 2000 Subject: Re: re.guild |November 23, 1999) at02/25/2000 11:14:14 AM I suspect it is indeed about control, as Rick says. Frankly, control is anillusion. When it is attempted, all kinds of things go wrong. It is calledthe revenge of unintended consequences. Look at what has emerged naturally out of many people's good will andhardwork. This list ( from Mike Biondo's efforts, among others), the gatherings( from the efforts of people like Harry Boyd and Wayne Cattanach, and ofcourse many others), and the general good spirited help for oft- repeatedquestions (said repetition unknown to the asker, of course). Do we reallywant to attempt to control that? I submit that less is more. Fewer rules will make for a freer flow ofinformation and ideas. A guild will mean rules. If we say one must maketenrods to become a member, someone will pump out ten junk rods just tobelong. Then, we'll need rules and judges and a system for determining thequality of the ten rods submitted for membership qualification. It willescalate from there. There is the old Latin admonition, caveat emptor -buyer beware. Seems to have worked for the most part up to this point inhistory. My suspicion is that this loose federation of makers and wannabees (ofwhich I remain one, much to my chagrin) is the direct result of frustrationat the secrecy that has been practiced in the past with respect not only torodmaking, but fishing in general, and fly fishing in particular. A spiritof cooperation and free flowing information has emerged to counter thatcontrol. A guild will work against that spirit. Respectfully,-Ed Estlow "R.A.Fick" cc:Sent by: Subject: re.guildowner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri 02/25/2000 10:31AMPlease respond torafick Mike sayeth: I for one, don't really know what it means to be part of a Guild. Seems to me that a guild is a union, in the case of the actors guild a trueunion, if your an actor, and you want to work, you belong to the guild.It is about control, I used to know a pilot who flew aerobatic and oldfighter aircraft for movies, he_ had_ to be a member of the guild, neversawhis face on film, didn't matter, no guild no work. itjust seems to me that we are in fact, already a Guild... I agree, loosely formed, minimal "control" but take a look at the rodmakerssite. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ from anglport@con2.com Fri Feb 25 11:53:38 2000 (SMTPD32-5.05) id A131DC7028C; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:51:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Maybe like Firestone, or was it Sears, we could all become "Mr.Goodplanes"?Art At 09:59 AM 02/25/2000 -0600, Mike Biondo wrote:Harry sayeth... There is a relatively new organization known as the "CustomRodmakersGuild." For more information, see this link: http://www.rodguild.com/Whilethat organization is primarily graphite centered, at least some bamboorodmakers attended their first Conclave last weekend. I am not amember,yet,and was not able to attend the Conclave.We have batted around the idea of a Guild on this list before. Yourquestion makes me wonder if the time is right for some discussion ofthebenefits of Guild membership? Are any of you folks members of theGuild?Ifso, would you mind sharing your thoughts? Did any of you on the listattendthe Conclave? Give Demo's? What are your thoughts? I for one, don't really know what it means to be part of a Guild, in thisday and age. Wasn't it, in medieval times, when technical knowledge wasclosely guarded, that guilds were created. If a person was grantedadmission to a guild, he too could then learn the secrets of the trade. In today's world, I *think* being a member of a guilds says that you aresupposed to be technically competent, and potential customers can feelconfident in purchasing from you. Do you really think this is a fact? Doyou think customers in today's world really look at such things? How canit be governed? What benefits could one realistically expect from beingamember? We already have many conclaves in the form of RodmakersGatherings. I am very interested in hearing others thoughts on this also, though itjust seems to me that we are in fact, already a Guild... Mike - lots of questions, not many answers - BiondoSt. Louis, MO from rsgould@cmc.net Fri Feb 25 12:01:37 2000 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Hi Mike,The idea of a "guild" really makes me pause. The purposes of a guild are toassure high quality (set standards), certify members and act as a referralservice. The rod builders I know locally, through workshops and throughthisrodmakers list each have built their own reputations and developed theirownareas of expertise and skill levels. I suppose there is the "prestige" thingthat some might get from belonging to a guild but others might get shutoutand feel it's more like a closed shop. And what about the newcomers?What'sreally important to me is that we share what we know and what we havelearned with others whether that person is a newcomer to the craft or anexperienced craftsperson. People will judge us by what we do and how weact.So my belief is that I would not want to form nor join a guild. It smacks of"elitism". In fact I think it might better be called "Gilding".Ray Gould----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Harry sayeth... There is a relatively new organization known as the "CustomRodmakersGuild." For more information, see this link: http://www.rodguild.com/Whilethat organization is primarily graphite centered, at least some bamboorodmakers attended their first Conclave last weekend. I am not amember,yet,and was not able to attend the Conclave.We have batted around the idea of a Guild on this list before. Yourquestion makes me wonder if the time is right for some discussion ofthebenefits of Guild membership? Are any of you folks members of theGuild?Ifso, would you mind sharing your thoughts? Did any of you on the listattendthe Conclave? Give Demo's? What are your thoughts? I for one, don't really know what it means to be part of a Guild, in thisday and age. Wasn't it, in medieval times, when technical knowledge wasclosely guarded, that guilds were created. If a person was grantedadmission to a guild, he too could then learn the secrets of the trade. In today's world, I *think* being a member of a guilds says that you aresupposed to be technically competent, and potential customers can feelconfident in purchasing from you. Do you really think this is a fact? Doyou think customers in today's world really look at such things? Howcanit be governed? What benefits could one realistically expect from beingamember? We already have many conclaves in the form of RodmakersGatherings. I am very interested in hearing others thoughts on this also, though itjust seems to me that we are in fact, already a Guild... Mike - lots of questions, not many answers - BiondoSt. Louis, MO from jfreeman@cyberport.com Fri Feb 25 12:06:18 2000 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) All, I'm not a member of the Guild, but I did start subscribing to RodMakerMagazine, which is loosely associated with the Guild. I can say that someofthe subscribers to the mag., which has been aimed at graphite, were a bitmiffed with the additions of the bamboo section by Russ Gooding. I thinkthose issues had been solved and done well with the support of the editor.Ipurchased all of the back issues, and, while I haven't tried the techniques,there have been some excellent articles with good crossover topics. Ithinkboth natural and synthetic builders could benefit from the synergy. Speaking for myself, I was in hopes that Bamboo Mag would become aviableforum for bamboo builders. That may not happen, and it's been my thoughtsthat RodMakers might become that resource. We'll see. As for the Guild, their purpose is as any guild - promote and support themembers in their commercial endeavors and become a focal point wherepurchasers can find the members. The tariff is a bit high for hobbyist butcertainly not for full commercial. Interesting concept - guild forrodmaking. Just my $.02. Jim----- Original Message ----- Subject: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Paul,There is a relatively new organization known as the "CustomRodmakersGuild." For more information, see this link: http://www.rodguild.com/Whilethat organization is primarily graphite centered, at least some bamboorodmakers attended their first Conclave last weekend. I am not amember,yet,and was not able to attend the Conclave.We have batted around the idea of a Guild on this list before. Yourquestion makes me wonder if the time is right for some discussion ofthebenefits of Guild membership? Are any of you folks members of theGuild?Ifso, would you mind sharing your thoughts? Did any of you on the listattendthe Conclave? Give Demo's? What are your thoughts? Thanks,Harry Paul Goodwin wrote: Hi, Occasionally I hear of people looking for a good bamboo rod. Since I amstill working on my first I'll pass. I there a directory of the "qualified" rod builders I can point peopleto?I was just chatting with someone who just returned a rod he had gotfroma"production bamboo company" and he is looking for a real bamboo rod. Paul --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from cfreaner@hq.nasa.gov Fri Feb 25 12:14:06 2000 Subject: Metric Planing Forms? Just out of curiosity, have any of you European rodmakers made your own planing forms, or had them made for you, using the metric system? Claude from cmj@post11.tele.dk Fri Feb 25 12:50:17 2000 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP +0100 Subject: Sv: Metric Planing Forms? ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: Claude Freaner Til: Sendt: 25. februar 2000 19:13Emne: Metric Planing Forms? Just out of curiosity, have any of you European rodmakers made your own planing forms, or had them made for you, using the metric system? Claude I think most of the danish rodmakers, (myself included) have solely formswithadjustability for every 5 inches, but use the metric system for adjustingto the tapers.I don't know about the englishmen, but I assume the rest of us uses themetric system, infact I have never heard otherwise. regards,Carsten from rp43640@online-club.de Fri Feb 25 15:09:59 2000 Fri, 25 Feb 2000 22:09:37 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Metric Planing Forms? Claude,I am in Germany having three sets of forms two of them were made byfriends in Denmark (one after Garrison the other push pull) and one inGermany (push pull) all using the 5 inch increments.I know of another german rodbuilder (unfortunately he quit rodbuilding infavour of salmon fishing) who had his made using the metric system (10cmincrements) as far as I know some french builders use the metric systemtoo. Christian Claude Freaner schrieb: Just out of curiosity, have any of you European rodmakers made yourown planing forms, or had them made for you, using the metric system? Claude from anglport@con2.com Fri Feb 25 16:12:31 2000 (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADC31399028C; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:10:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) "The tariff is a bit high for hobbyist butcertainly not for full commercial. " Not to put too fine a point on it....who here is "full commercial"? Terry,you interested in this? I saw that "tariff"; it seemed a WHOPPER to me! Art from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Feb 25 17:17:18 2000 Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:16:59 -0800 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Bob, from what I know of the current Guild, there are at least someguidelinesother than paying your money. One must correctly locate the spine of arod.One must mount a reel seat. One must wrap a guide or two. Or somethinglikethat.If there are guidelines for bamboo makers, I don't know about them. Maybeone could be asked to submit a rod for evaluation? Who would evaluate it-- notme!! Although I've seen a couple of really bad modern bamboo rods, it hasonlybeen a couple. All the rods I've seen at our Gatherings were good. Theworstone there was better than most old trade rods. Harry Bob Nunley wrote: Harry,I checked into the Guild once. I don't know. Seems to me, that if youwant to pay a fee then you can join the guild and be "reputable". A "guild"would not be a bad idea at all, if there were some qualifications forbeinga member and being listed, other than just paying a fee. I know a coupleof"rodmakers" that are members of the guild (not cane scrapers... plasticpeople), and some are good, some are just riding the guild list while theylearn how to assemble composite rods. I think the Guild has set it'smembership high enough that it intends to keep all but the professionalrodmakers out, however, references, or any other evidence that one istrulya rodmaker, are not required. That, in my opinion, kind of compromisestheintegrity of the list.I would like to see a good rodmakers guild, but what would qualify oneto be a member? Quite frankly, I would like to see a cane rodmakersguild,dedicated to our craft. I just don't want to see an organization whereANYONE can join and get his or her name on a list of Rodmakers. What,though, would be the determining factor(s) of whether one was really arodmaker or not? Back to the coffee pot!Bob-----Original Message-----From: Harry Boyd Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, February 25, 2000 8:36 AMSubject: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Paul,There is a relatively new organization known as the "CustomRodmakersGuild." For more information, see this link: http://www.rodguild.com/Whilethat organization is primarily graphite centered, at least some bamboorodmakers attended their first Conclave last weekend. I am not amember,yet,and was not able to attend the Conclave.We have batted around the idea of a Guild on this list before. Yourquestion makes me wonder if the time is right for some discussion ofthebenefits of Guild membership? Are any of you folks members of theGuild?Ifso, would you mind sharing your thoughts? Did any of you on the listattendthe Conclave? Give Demo's? What are your thoughts? Thanks,Harry Paul Goodwin wrote: Hi, Occasionally I hear of people looking for a good bamboo rod. Since I amstill working on my first I'll pass. I there a directory of the "qualified" rod builders I can point peopleto?I was just chatting with someone who just returned a rod he had gotfroma"production bamboo company" and he is looking for a real bamboo rod. Paul --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Feb 25 17:17:56 2000 Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:17:39 -0800 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Ralph,I didn't mean to say I was advocating the Guild, just thinking ithad some merit. Some things immediately come to mind. First is thepowerof the group in purchasing advertising. Second is referrals, what broughtthis thread about in the first place. Third is the opportunity to buy thecomponents we need at wholesale costs. I know, many of us already buywholesale, but a guy who makes two or three rods a year has to stretchhisbudget to meet minimum wholesale orders.One of the great things about our "gatherings" is the opportunity tolearn from others. I've only been to two, but learned more than I couldhave imagined at both. Not only did I learn about actually making rods, Ilearned some things about people. And all of us can stand to learn moreabout people, right?The "power" issue is a big potential pitfall for a guild. But theneat thing is, almost all of us trust one another. Just a few weeks ago, Iput together a joint order for components that came to over $3000 from16different listmembers. My point is, we often trust each other with ourmoney, and that's a lot of trust! Harry Ralph W Moon wrote: Just my opinion, but I do not like the idea of any sort of guild. Ifeel, for example, that I have achieved a state of contentment for myabilities, and I would resent very much anyone trying to decide if Iqualified for a guild or what. I know my peers and respect them, but Ican tell you that there are some things I do better than anybody(besides shoot off my mouth), and some things I do a terrible jog of. Ifail to see any advantages to belonging to such a guild. For sure wedon't need to band together for trade protection. I can see a number ofnegative factors. Someone, somewhere and sometimes is going to seetheguild as a personl form of power and begin to attempt to control the wayits members perform. I want none of that., I have seen it many timesbefore. Those of us who are rodmakers know what is going on out there,and if someone does not, then he should work to learn. Ralph --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Feb 25 17:18:35 2000 Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:18:26 -0800 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Mike,You're right, of course - in many ways we do function as a loose knitsortof guild. I know I have recommended several members of this list topotentialbuyers, especially for restoration work. Sometimes I think that's evenmoretechnical than building a rod from scratch.But you know, there are a number of good rodmakers on this list towhomI've never pointed anyone. Why? Not because their rods aren't good, butbecausethey don't post much on the list, or they haven't made it to one of thegatherings, or I don't know them personally. As one of the heavier posterstothis list, almost everyone here at least knows my name. That got me atleast onereferral a few months ago. But there are lots of builders on here withmoreexperience and better rods than mine. In that respect my chiefqualification isthat I can type, and can often construct a grammatically correct sentence.Maybe it's time to get back to my original question: Did anyone go totheGuild Conclave? What are your thoughts? Harry Mike Biondo wrote: In today's world, I *think* being a member of a guilds says that you aresupposed to be technically competent, and potential customers can feelconfident in purchasing from you. Do you really think this is a fact? Doyou think customers in today's world really look at such things? Howcanit be governed? What benefits could one realistically expect from beingamember? We already have many conclaves in the form of RodmakersGatherings. I am very interested in hearing others thoughts on this also, though itjust seems to me that we are in fact, already a Guild... Mike - lots of questions, not many answers - BiondoSt. Louis, MO --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Feb 25 17:23:40 2000 Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:23:20 -0800 17:21:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Wayne,So those issues haven't been resolved yet. Maybe they shouldn't be.Perhaps more than any one individual you have brought us together andformedthis loose knit Confederation (notice the good "Suthen" word). Like lots ofothers, I am grateful. But I do wonder if together we could take a goodthingand improve it.Oh, it's 85* F here in Louisiana. I worked in the shop all day in justa t-shirt. Turned the AC on just before I left. Next Wed - Sat, I've got anSRG "planning meeting" in the works. I'll think about y'all while I'mpullingon one of those big rainbows! Harry0 Wayne Cattanach wrote: The original newsleter for bamboo rodmakers = was called the BambooRodmakers Guild - some by 'The Sparse Grey Hackle' - the same issuesthatare being discussed here - wer the topics in 1946 as well - justdifferentfaces Hey - It's 63 degrees in Michigan in Feb - started the A/c units in 6buildings this morning - WILD-----Original Message-----From: Mike Biondo Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, February 25, 2000 11:07 AMSubject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Harry sayeth... There is a relatively new organization known as the "CustomRodmakersGuild." For more information, see this link: http://www.rodguild.com/Whilethat organization is primarily graphite centered, at least some bamboorodmakers attended their first Conclave last weekend. I am not amember,yet,and was not able to attend the Conclave.We have batted around the idea of a Guild on this list before. Yourquestion makes me wonder if the time is right for some discussion ofthebenefits of Guild membership? Are any of you folks members of theGuild?Ifso, would you mind sharing your thoughts? Did any of you on the listattendthe Conclave? Give Demo's? What are your thoughts? I for one, don't really know what it means to be part of a Guild, in thisday and age. Wasn't it, in medieval times, when technical knowledgewasclosely guarded, that guilds were created. If a person was grantedadmission to a guild, he too could then learn the secrets of the trade. In today's world, I *think* being a member of a guilds says that you aresupposed to be technically competent, and potential customers can feelconfident in purchasing from you. Do you really think this is a fact? Doyou think customers in today's world really look at such things? Howcanit be governed? What benefits could one realistically expect from beinga member? We already have many conclaves in the form of RodmakersGatherings. I am very interested in hearing others thoughts on this also, though itjust seems to me that we are in fact, already a Guild... Mike - lots of questions, not many answers - BiondoSt. Louis, MO --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Feb 25 17:26:54 2000 Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:26:41 -0800 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Jim,Like you, I get the magazine, and have learned a bunch. Aren't thetiesyou mentioned between the magazine and the guild more of a mutualadmirationsociety than even a loose tie?Who knows - maybe all this talk of a guild just reinforces the goodthing we've got going here on Rodmakers Listserv...... Harry from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Feb 25 17:35:47 2000 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Ed,I agree, if a guild results in control, and less information, it is a bad But what if that's not the case? What if a guild opens the channels ofinfomationevefarther? What if a guild makes it simpler for wannabe's to becomerodmakers? Anyguild Iwould be a part of would certainly work towards those two goals. Harry from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Fri Feb 25 18:11:00 2000 Subject: Quad forms Does anyone know if a quad form follows the same taper in dimensions asbuilding a hex form except 90 * instead of 60* ? If it is a differentpattern does someone out there have a pattern for quad forms?Shawn from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Feb 25 18:19:30 2000 Subject: Epoxy Remover A while back someone mentioned a Epoxy Remover orsomething like that. I thought I saved the messagebut can't find it now.Any help will be appreciated.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Feb 25 18:38:06 2000 Subject: Re: Quad forms In a message dated 2/26/0 12:11:50 AM, nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.cawrites: Shawn - The short answer to that is NO. If you look at the geometry youwill see that even though the section depth of a quad is shallower than a hex, when you turn a quad strip on edge it is wider than a hex strip. Therefore you should make the quad forms a bit deeper. It is all simple geometry, butI don't have the number in my head anymore. If you want I will dig out the stuff Bill Fink worked out some years ago and post it. Quad strips are apain to plane compared to hex or penta strips. They are so narrow they want to wiggle in the form and mess up the angles. The form should be deep enoughto give good support. from wiljette@nmia.com Fri Feb 25 18:53:33 2000 via sendmail with smtp (Smail-3.2.0.106 1999-Mar-31 #3 built 1999-Apr-19) Subject: Re: Epoxy Remover Tony: Try acetone. It works for me for cleanup prior to the epoxy settingup. Will----- Original Message ----- Subject: Epoxy Remover A while back someone mentioned a Epoxy Remover orsomething like that. I thought I saved the messagebut can't find it now.Any help will be appreciated.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from bob@downandacross.com Fri Feb 25 18:57:07 2000 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: snake guides order Could anyone who got in on Chris Smith's snake guide order contact me off list? I haven't been able to get hold of him, and I am wondering if the order went in. Did his e-mail change?thanks,Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from sniderja@email.uc.edu Fri Feb 25 19:29:07 2000 Subject: Re: Epoxy Remover Try the following web site:http://www.omgems.com/jewel/adhesives/hughes_associates_adhesives.htm I believe that the brand name of the product is ATTACK.J. Snider At 05:56 PM 02/25/2000 -0700, William Jette wrote:Tony: Try acetone. It works for me for cleanup prior to the epoxy settingup. Will----- Original Message -----From: Tony Spezio Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 5:15 PMSubject: Epoxy Remover A while back someone mentioned a Epoxy Remover orsomething like that. I thought I saved the messagebut can't find it now.Any help will be appreciated.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Feb 25 19:54:06 2000 Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:55:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Epoxy Remover I did not mention that the glue has set up. Denatured alcohol works good ifthe epoxy has not cured.Thanks for the reply.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com William Jette wrote: Tony: Try acetone. It works for me for cleanup prior to the epoxy settingup. Will----- Original Message -----From: Tony Spezio Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 5:15 PMSubject: Epoxy Remover A while back someone mentioned a Epoxy Remover orsomething like that. I thought I saved the messagebut can't find it now.Any help will be appreciated.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from nobler@satx.rr.com Fri Feb 25 20:30:19 2000 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19);Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:30:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Old Rod Help The early FG versions of these rods were spoken of very highly, inreferencebooks. While I never felt they were the equal of Sila Flex, they were ratedhighly. Certainly worth keeping. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Old Rod Help Hi All,A friend of a friend has a pair of old Philipson rods - they look likevery old fiberglass in a shade of brown that at first, suggests abamboo rod. One is labeled S76 HDH 3 3/4 oz Fly Rod The other is a casting rod: POWR CAST Lures to 1/2 OZ Does anyone have a ballpark value for these? I'd like to be able totell this nice gentleman whether or not he should let hisgrandchildren use them! Thanks so much,Joe Mulvey from channer1@rmi.net Fri Feb 25 21:03:43 2000 Subject: Re: Epoxy Remover Tony Spezio wrote: I did not mention that the glue has set up. Denatured alcohol works goodifthe epoxy has not cured.Thanks for the reply.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony;If it has set up on the rod, then you are stuck sanding it off.I don'tthink I would use something like Attack on a glued rod, I would beafraid that it would also attck the glue joints.John from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Fri Feb 25 21:08:27 2000 Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:07:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Quad forms Tom,that would be great! I am really suprised at how little info there isout there on quads. I am slowly starting to get some quad tapers roundedup andam trying to find any info I can on them much the same as when I firststartedlooking for info on building bamboo rods 3 years ago. No one ever claimedthis iseasy! Up until recently I was under the impression that quads were fasterthanhexes. Someone set me straight on that last week! It sucks not havingother rodbuilders near here.We are all very lucky to have a network of builders hereonline!Thanks,Shawn TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/26/0 12:11:50 AM, nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.cawrites: building a hex form except 90 * >> Shawn - The short answer to that is NO. If you look at the geometry youwillsee that even though the section depth of a quad is shallower than a hex,when you turn a quad strip on edge it is wider than a hex strip. Thereforeyou should make the quad forms a bit deeper. It is all simple geometry,but Idon't have the number in my head anymore. If you want I will dig out thestuff Bill Fink worked out some years ago and post it. Quad strips are apainto plane compared to hex or penta strips. They are so narrow they wanttowiggle in the form and mess up the angles. The form should be deepenough togive good support. from morten@flash.net Fri Feb 25 23:23:26 2000 Subject: Re: Quad forms Quad forms.I have lately been working on making quads on my milling machine. Themachine is a blend of Al Medved and Bob Milwards milling machines withmodifications of my own.The major change between my setup and Bob Milwards is that my formsareadjustable like in a conventional planing form.I made the tapered groove .002" per inch for the tip section and .001"per inch for the butt section. This was done to give maximum support forthe cane. (Most tips have a faster taper than the butt sections.) The groove IS deeper than on a hex form.On a quad the enamel side of a strip equals the flat to flat diameterof the rod. The strip is supported in the form at a 45* angle, and thevertical side is one of the pith sides. This pith side is the depth ofthe form. I found this depth by using the formula; a squared + b squared = csquared in a right angeled triangle. c is the dia of the rod, i.e. thewith of the strip. Hence the depth of the form is the root of 1/2 csquared.Example: On a Garrison 201 @ 50" the depth is; (Diameter=.201) .201 squared=.040, divided by 2=.020, the root of .020=.142 . The depthof the form at this point is .142. (The depth in a hex form at the samepoint would be .101)I hope this helps the quad mystery.If I made some errors I have to blame the Famous Grouse.Morten 3119 Georgia Pine Dr.Spring, TX 77373(281) 353 5725http://www.flash.net/~morten from kbuch@mail.stlnet.com Fri Feb 25 23:28:01 2000 Subject: New Aspiring Rodbuilder Does anyone on this list live in the greater St. Louis area? I wouldlike to speak to someone about building bamboo rods and have a multitudeof questions on how to get started. Thanks in advance and any help is greatly appreciated. Kevin BuchananKirkwood, MO from flash@gds.co.za Sat Feb 26 02:59:11 2000 be forged)) [216.5.6.234] (may beforged)) Subject: Converting to Metric? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0066_01BF8043.B9B56420" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01BF8043.B9B56420 What is the best way of converting rod tapers to metric ? I need a =formula or somethingplease help? ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01BF8043.B9B56420 What is the best way ofconverting = metric ? I need a formula or somethingplease =help? ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01BF8043.B9B56420-- from rp43640@online-club.de Sat Feb 26 05:15:21 2000 Sat, 26 Feb 2000 12:14:31 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Converting to Metric? Herman,one thing you can try is to search on the internet for metric convertersthere a quite a few out there for converting nearly everything. 1 foot = 304.8 mm1 inch = 25.4 mm so just multiply with these numbers,to convert vom foot to inch multiply with 12 Christian Herman schrieb: What is the best way of converting rod tapers to metric ? I need aformula or somethingplease help? from caneman@clnk.com Sat Feb 26 06:19:56 2000 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com for ;Sat, 26 Feb 2000 06:16:58 -0600 Subject: HELP!!! boundary="----=_NextPart_000_09E2_01BF8021.36800960" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_09E2_01BF8021.36800960 EVERYONE!!!If you happen to see anyone that has a set of 6" station push pull =planing forms and a set of 5" station differential screw forms for sale, =let me know. Left my shop overhead door open for a few while I ran to =the store for a pack of cigs, and someone relieved me of them. The have = Thanks,Bob R.L. "Bob" Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Bamboo Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ------=_NextPart_000_09E2_01BF8021.36800960 EVERYONE!!! station push pull planing forms and a set of 5" station = = Thanks,Bob Rodsht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ------=_NextPart_000_09E2_01BF8021.36800960-- from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Feb 26 06:42:06 2000 Sat, 26 Feb 2000 08:41:32 -0400 Subject: Re: HELP!!! boundary="------------74813C778B45641815EBB335" --------------74813C778B45641815EBB335 Bob,that's terrible! Are you sure its not one of your buds playing apractical joke? If not, I think we should hunt this individual down andgive him a good public "caning", who's with me? ;^) Sorry Bob, that'snot really a joking matter but I couldn't resist. I can't believesomeone would do that. If I lived closer you would be more than welcometo use my forms. I hope they show up! Keep us posted, Shawn Bob Nunley wrote: EVERYONE!!! If you happen to see anyone that has a set of 6"station push pull planing forms and a set of 5" station differentialscrew forms for sale, let me know. Left my shop overhead door open relieved me of them. The have "RLN" stamped in the butt end of bothsets of forms. Thanks,BobR.L. "Bob" Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Bamboo Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm --------------74813C778B45641815EBB335 Bob, sure its not one of your buds playing a practical joke? If not, I thinkwe should hunt this individual down and give him a good public "caning", I couldn't resist. I can't believe someone would do that. If I lived closeryou would be more than welcome to use my forms. I hope they show up!Keepus posted, ShawnBob Nunley wrote: you happen to see anyone that has a set of 6" station push pull planingforms and a set of 5" station differential screw forms for sale, let me "RLN" stamped in the butt end of both sets of Custom Split Bamboo Fly Rods http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm --------------74813C778B45641815EBB335-- from nobler@satx.rr.com Sat Feb 26 06:53:40 2000 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19);Sat, 26 Feb 2000 06:54:07 -0600 Subject: Re: Converting to Metric? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF8026.6BF51680" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF8026.6BF51680 One millimeter is =3D to .03937". Radio Shack sells a neat little =calculator with conversions from inch to metric, and reverse, for about =$15. GMA Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 2:24 AMSubject: Converting to Metric? What is the best way of converting rod tapers to metric ? I need a =formula or somethingplease help? ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF8026.6BF51680 One millimeter is =3D to .03937". Radio Shack sells a neat little = with conversions from inch to metric, and reverse, for about $15. GMA ----- Original Message ----- Herman= Sent: Saturday, February 26, = AMSubject: Converting to =Metric? What is the best way ofconverting = to metric ? I need a formula or somethingplease =help? ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF8026.6BF51680-- from caneman@clnk.com Sat Feb 26 06:55:54 2000 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com for ;Sat, 26 Feb 2000 06:52:55 -0600 Subject: Fw: HELP!!! boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0A18_01BF8026.3C1847C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0A18_01BF8026.3C1847C0 Joe, Shawn,Thanks... fortunately, I have another set that I can use, but sure =will miss these. Not too many people have a use for planing forms, so =maybe they'll pop up... Hope so. -----Original Message-----From: Shawn Pineo Cc: Rod Makers List Serve Date: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:38 AMSubject: Re: HELP!!! that's terrible! Are you sure its not one of your buds =playing a practical joke? If not, I think we should hunt this individual =down and give him a good public "caning", who's with me? ;^) Sorry Bob, =that's not really a joking matter but I couldn't resist. I can't believe =someone would do that. If I lived closer you would be more than welcome = = EVERYONE!!! If you happen to see anyone that has a set of 6" =station push pull planing forms and a set of 5" station differential =screw forms for sale, let me know. Left my shop overhead door open for =a few while I ran to the store for a pack of cigs, and someone relieved =me of them. The have "RLN" stamped in the butt end of both sets of = http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0A18_01BF8026.3C1847C0 Joe, Shawn, have a use for planing forms, so maybe they'll pop up... Hope =so. -----Original = Shawn Pineo <nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca&g= caneman@clnk.com = Makers List Serve <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= its not one of your buds playing a practical joke? If not, I think = hunt this individual down and give him a good public = couldn't resist. I can't believe someone would do that. If I lived = you would be more than welcome to use my forms. I hope they show up!= = of 6" station push pull planing forms and a set of 5" = overhead door open for a few while I ran to the store for a pack = stamped in the butt end of both sets of = Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0A18_01BF8026.3C1847C0-- from jlintvet@erols.com Sat Feb 26 07:59:29 2000 ([207.172.79.243]helo=compaq) Subject: Re: Heat tolerance of Titebond II I don't believe you will have a problem working a small curve or twist outof a section. Go slow, low heat, and use your bare hands. Luckily Ihaven't had to do it very many times, but when I have, if my hands startgetting to the point where I want to put the bamboo down I know I amgettingit too hot. Option 2) You could put the bend on the opposite side of the guides. Jon M. Lintvet1007 W. Franklin St. #3Richmond, VA 23220(804) 340-1848 ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Heat tolerance of Titebond II You might consider placing the guides on the blank so as to minimize thecurve. It's not perfect but you do have 6 locations to choose from. Idon'tnormally use this method to locate my guides but I would probablyconsiderit depending on the conditions. This sounds like one of those conditionswhere I might just consider it. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 10:39 AM Subject: Heat tolerance of Titebond II My first nodeless rod is bound and on the bench andneeds a bit of straightening... hopefully this problemwill be minimized on subsequent nodeless rods, butright now I'm faced with trying to straighten theblank. The splices are glued with Titebond II... theblank glued with Epon. Should I risk splice failures or live with a slight sweep in the tip section? I'd really like to avoid splice failures at thispoint! Thanks in advance. Eck__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.http://im.yahoo.com from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Feb 26 10:14:36 2000 Subject: Re: Quad forms Shawn - When Bill Fink and I made quad forms a long time ago, Bill workedout the following numbers:If you convert the forms in the Garrison book, (depth X .93 X 1.4) you get .040 to .156 on the tip form, and .082 to .191 on the butt forms. Some have suggested that the Garrison formula is a bit too steep if you are making midge rods. What we wound up going with was .040 to .100 for the tips,and .082 to .142 for the butt.If you take 1/2 the thickness of a quad and multiply it by 1.4, you will be close to the form setting you need at that point. Look over your tapers and build the forms accordingly. from darrell@rockclimbing.org Sat Feb 26 11:19:18 2000 sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: HELP!!! boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF803A.73694300" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF803A.73694300 Sorry to hear that Bob... Guess smoking can also be hazardous to your pocketbook.... 8^) Darrellwww.bamboorods.homepage.com PS Seriously, I hope you catch that, no good, blinking, crook... if he's alist subscriber... show some remorse and return them...-----Original Message----- From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:18 AM Subject: HELP!!! EVERYONE!!!If you happen to see anyone that has a set of 6" station push pullplaning forms and a set of 5" station differential screw forms for sale,letme know. Left my shop overhead door open for a few while I ran to thestore stampedin the butt end of both sets of forms. Thanks,Bob R.L. "Bob" Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Bamboo Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF803A.73694300 to hear that Bob... 8^) Darrell PS = you catch that, no good, blinking, crook... if he's a list subscriber... = some remorse and return them... NunleySent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:18 = Makers List ServeSubject: HELP!!!EVERYONE!!! station push pull planing forms and a set of 5" station differential = while I ran to the store for a pack of cigs, and someone relieved me = Thanks,Bob Rodsht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF803A.73694300-- from bob@downandacross.com Sat Feb 26 11:43:00 2000 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: Re: Converting to Metric? boundary="=====================_1421198==_.ALT" --=====================_1421198==_.ALT I did this with a taper from Frank Neunemann's great site: Go to the WWW and do a search for conversions. At http://tqjunior.advanced.org/3804/length.htmlyou can do inches into cm or whatever you want. It is just a simple java applet. I kno wthat Palm Pilots can do them easily. Also, my digital depth gauge will do mm too!Good luck,Bob 10:24 AM 2/26/00 +0200, you wrote:What is the best way of converting rod tapers to metric ? I need aformula or somethingplease help? Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com-- =====================_1421198==_.ALT I did this with a taper from Frank Neunemann's great site: Go to the WWWand do a search for conversions. At http://tqjunior.advanced.org/3804/length.html you can do inches into cm or whatever you want. It is just a simple javaapplet. I knowthat Palm Pilots can do them easily. Also, my digital depth gauge will domm too!Good luck,Bob 10:24 AM 2/26/00 +0200, you wrote:What is the best way ofconverting rod tapers tometric ? I need a formula or somethingplease help? Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.com bob@downandacross.com --=====================_1421198==_.ALT-- from weehughie@home.com Sat Feb 26 12:17:32 2000 (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP ;Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:17:24 -0800 Subject: RE: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) I have been on this list for the past 4 or 5 years. Many of you mightremember me as being labelled the list's 'plastic surgeon' when I operatedWishbone Custom Rods in Grand Valley, Ontario. Although I could neverofferany help or assistance with respect to tapers, culm splitting, planing, orother activities related only to cane rod building, I often took part inthreads involving finishing, cork handles, guide placement, and even somemarketing issues. I believe that I did offer quite a bit to this list, andeven though I have never built a cane rod in my life, my respect for canerod builders is great, and I do know the joy of casting with cane. Some ofyou may even remember the feature I put together about three years ago onthe cane craft at the Resources For Anglers site(http://absolute- sway.com/rfa/Feb98/) which I then turned into somearticleson the flyfishing site at About.com (http://flyfishing.about.com). I attended the Rod Guild conclave last weekend. I posted a review of theprogram on the flyfishing site, which if any of you are interested in,please read. I was very impressed with the quality of the presentationsanddemonstrations that took place, and believe me, Stan Smartt, a canebuilder from south Tennessee did you guys all very well down there. Hispresentation, in my opinion, was one of the highlights of the weekend, andIknow that he certainly got quite a few people interested in the craft. Aswell, Mr. Demarest and his lovely wife were in attendance and broughtalongbamboo culms (which he also offered for sale), as well as put together awonderful display on how Tonkin cane is grown, selected, and harvested.Many of the attendees found this to be a great addition to the conclave. It seems to me that there is little harm that can come when cane rodbuilders in general take advantage of opportunities to promote their craft,whether it be through fellowship of other rod builders who build as youcall, 'plastic' rods, through better marketing arrangements, or eventhroughlearning new things. Lets face it... you can build a rod exactly the sameas one of the 'fathers' of split cane, but still have a rod that is inferiorto someone else who discovers new processes, new ways of doing things,orquestions the 'old way' and discovers something better. As well, as much as I personally respect the skill and craftsmenship thatgoes into a well built cane rod, that should not take anything away fromthecare, love, and skill that goes into a graphite or fibreglass rod made by aproud custom rod builder. Sure, he does not split something that was oncealiving thing. Of course, he does not spend great deals of time planing,gluing, and doing all the other things that you do. But, he is building atool that will end up being the best it can be and his care and pride is noless than yours. I would bet that, believe it or not, he might even be ableto teach you a thing or two about guide spacing, getting a good finish onyour threads, over all aesthetics, rod balance, and many other things otherthan splitting a piece of Tonkin. As far as the 'power' issues that have been brought up in this thread, it ismy understanding from speaking with Tom Greek, the founder of the Guild,that there is certainly no motive on his part to control rod building orweild great amounts of power. His concerns are in the marketing ofcustomrods with the view of being able to show anglers that there are optionsavailable to them other than simply going to the local Wal-Mart, Hardwareshop, or fly shop and buying a rod off the rack. Yes, this option alsoincludes cane rods as well. If your craft is to survive and thrive, many of you will need to sell rods.Perhaps as individuals, you have no need to add existing clients to yourbusiness. But what about others, the talented young man or woman, whocanbuild an awesome and beautiful tool, through your guidance, but simplycannot afford to pay for their skill in the purchase of better equipment,purchase of new cane, or could use the extra money working a part timejobat the local 7-11 rather than spending time building rods for free?Obviously, it is in the craft's interest to promote the business! I thinksome of us are afraid of two things: We are afraid of too many individualsbecoming involved in the craft and We are afraid of too many peoplewantingour rods. Ask yourself what it is you are afraid of? Are you afraid ofcompetition? Well.. the only way to ensure that cane rod building thrives(which of course, if it does, will most likely lower many of yourproductioncosts) is to ensure that others learn to build cane rods. Maybe many ofthese folks, just like many of you on this list, started out with graphite.How to reach those folks? Wouldn't you agree that by promoting the art ofcane crafting, with a man like Stan Smartt at a rod guild conclave is anawesome opportunity? There are millions of anglers in North America. A custom or cane rod isnot however. Convert some of these people to your way of thinking, even ifYOUcannot build the rods for them, and you will be ensuring that your grandchildren and great grand children have choices available to them as far asthe tools they use to fish with. I don't build rods anymore due to family problems a few years ago, whichmade it necessary for me to sell my house. When I moved, I simply had noroom to build any longer. Being at the conclave relit that spark inside me,and of course, I also want to make plans to attend Stan Smartt's week longclasses on cane rod building too. It was nice to find an individual whoclaimed that he learned some things as well, and could also teach us quiteabit too. My 2cents. Ian Scott Mike,You're right, of course - in many ways we do function asa loose knit sortof guild. I know I have recommended several members of this listto potentialbuyers, especially for restoration work. Sometimes I thinkthat's even moretechnical than building a rod from scratch.But you know, there are a number of good rodmakers onthis list to whomI've never pointed anyone. Why? Not because their rods aren'tgood, but becausethey don't post much on the list, or they haven't made it to one of thegatherings, or I don't know them personally. As one of theheavier posters tothis list, almost everyone here at least knows my name. That gotme at least onereferral a few months ago. But there are lots of builders onhere with moreexperience and better rods than mine. In that respect my chiefqualification isthat I can type, and can often construct a grammatically correct Maybe it's time to get back to my original question: Didanyone go to theGuild Conclave? What are your thoughts? Harry Mike Biondo wrote: In today's world, I *think* being a member of a guilds says that you aresupposed to be technically competent, and potential customers can feelconfident in purchasing from you. Do you really think this isa fact? Doyou think customers in today's world really look at suchthings? How canit be governed? What benefits could one realistically expect from being amember? We already have many conclaves in the form ofRodmakers Gatherings. I am very interested in hearing others thoughts on this also, though itjust seems to me that we are in fact, already a Guild... Mike - lots of questions, not many answers - BiondoSt. Louis, MO --Harry Boyd> http://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Feb 26 12:42:09 2000 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" (5.0.2195) Subject: Re: Heat tolerance of Titebond II Martin Titebond will hold fine if you do not try to straighten in one step. Just finesse it a bit at a time. Titebond can take heat - the unplanned experiment I had when myoven thermostat broke and I had smoke billowing out - the strips werecharredand the thermostat that goes to 500 degrees broke. I took the strips outand put the smoldering remains on my deck. The next morning I could bend astripway past a horseshoe shape and on to round until the strip shattered - itwasnot the splices that failed but rather a general failure of the strip -splinters everywhere. Not that was an abusive heat test.I have talked to Custom Pakabout heat and there is agurement within the glue community about if it isorif it isn't as strong after exposure to heat - the jury is out amoung theglue professionals - so . . . . slow a little bit at a time. Chris On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 09:22:01 -0800, Jon Lintvet wrote: I don't believe you will have a problem working a small curve or twist outof a section. Go slow, low heat, and use your bare hands. Luckily Ihaven't had to do it very many times, but when I have, if my hands startgetting to the point where I want to put the bamboo down I know I amgettingit too hot. Option 2) You could put the bend on the opposite side of the guides. Jon M. Lintvet1007 W. Franklin St. #3Richmond, VA 23220(804) 340-1848 ----- Original Message -----From: Martin Jensen Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:00 PMSubject: RE: Heat tolerance of Titebond II You might consider placing the guides on the blank so as to minimizethecurve. It's not perfect but you do have 6 locations to choose from. Idon'tnormally use this method to locate my guides but I would probablyconsiderit depending on the conditions. This sounds like one of those conditionswhere I might just consider it. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 10:39 AM Subject: Heat tolerance of Titebond II My first nodeless rod is bound and on the bench andneeds a bit of straightening... hopefully this problemwill be minimized on subsequent nodeless rods, butright now I'm faced with trying to straighten theblank. The splices are glued with Titebond II... theblank glued with Epon. Should I risk splice failures or live with a slight sweep in the tip section? I'd really like to avoid splice failures at thispoint! Thanks in advance. Eck__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.http://im.yahoo.com from martinjensen@home.com Sat Feb 26 12:58:28 2000 (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP ;Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:58:25 -0800 Subject: RE: HELP!!! boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF8048.5E4F01E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF8048.5E4F01E0 sorry to hear. They will have to be put up for sale. Probably after beingdoctored where you stamp is. I just can't believe a rodbuilder would takethese. Did they take other stuff too?I will keep my eyes and ears open Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:18 AM Subject: HELP!!! EVERYONE!!!If you happen to see anyone that has a set of 6" station push pullplaning forms and a set of 5" station differential screw forms for sale,letme know. Left my shop overhead door open for a few while I ran to thestore stampedin the butt end of both sets of forms. Thanks,Bob R.L. "Bob" Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Bamboo Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF8048.5E4F01E0 to hear. They will have to be put up for sale. Probably after being = where you stamp is. I just can't believe a rodbuilder would take these. = take other stuff too? keep my eyes and ears open Jensen NunleySent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:18 = Makers List ServeSubject: HELP!!!EVERYONE!!! station push pull planing forms and a set of 5" station differential = while I ran to the store for a pack of cigs, and someone relieved me = Thanks,Bob Rodsht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF8048.5E4F01E0-- from bob@downandacross.com Sat Feb 26 13:11:05 2000 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: Driggs I had a beautiful day here in usually cold Buffalo. Up to 65 today. I got a chance to cast the Driggs I made for the first time with guides taped on. With a WF5 it casts with nice punch in the 20-40' range. Good in close and accurate. It was a bit windy, (I was in my small backyard with a lot of lines overhead), so I did not get to try to punch it out to 50-60'. And why bother. I could feel that reserve power it had, though. Everyone who raves about this taper is right on. It is fantastic. I built this one blond and nodeless. I bet it would be great flamed, a bit faster. Thanks to everyone who said this taper was so good. Do some cast nice with a 4wt too?BobBob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from anglport@con2.com Sat Feb 26 13:14:46 2000 (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5C21B8005E; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:13:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Fw: HELP!!! Bob,I sure hope they will! I have a feeling the yahoos that took them haveno or something). I teach 12th year math in HS and my kids have to get TI83s,which are about $90 to $110 and look like Gameboys. I have to tell them toguard against theft because some moron who thinks it's a video game islikely to steal it and pitch it in the garbage when they realize it's not.Good luck,Art At 06:53 AM 02/26/2000 -0600, Bob Nunley wrote:Joe, Shawn, Not too many people have a use for planing forms, somaybe they'll pop up... Hope so. -----Original Message-----From: Cc: Date: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:38 AMSubject: Re: HELP!!! Bob, "" Sorry Bob, that's not really a joking matter but I couldn'tresist. I can't believe someone would do that. If I lived closer youwould be more than welcome to use my forms. I hope they show up! Keepus posted, Shawn Bob Nunley wrote: "" "" "" Nunley, Rodmaker Custom Split Bamboo Fly Rods http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Feb 26 13:22:30 2000 Sun, 27 Feb 2000 03:22:12 +0800 Subject: Re: Driggs I think it's better with a WF#4 Tony At 02:08 PM 2/26/00 -0500, bob maulucci wrote:I had a beautiful day here in usually cold Buffalo. Up to 65 today. I got a chance to cast the Driggs I made for the first time with guides taped on. With a WF5 it casts with nice punch in the 20-40' range. Good in closeand accurate. It was a bit windy, (I was in my small backyard with a lot of lines overhead), so I did not get to try to punch it out to 50-60'. And why bother. I could feel that reserve power it had, though. Everyone whoraves about this taper is right on. It is fantastic. I built this one blond and nodeless. I bet it would be great flamed, a bit faster. Thanks to everyone who said this taper was so good. Do some cast nice with a 4wt too?BobBob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sat Feb 26 14:07:00 2000 Sat, 26 Feb 2000 12:06:31 -0800 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Thanks Ian,You're right of course, Stan is a great guy. And Bamboo rodmakershaveno finer ambassadors than Harold and Eileen Demarest. Thank you for yourinsights into the Guild Conclave. Harry Boyd Ian Scott wrote: I have been on this list for the past 4 or 5 years. Many of you mightremember me as being labelled the list's 'plastic surgeon' when IoperatedWishbone Custom Rods in Grand Valley, Ontario. Although I could neverofferany help or assistance with respect to tapers, culm splitting, planing, orother activities related only to cane rod building, I often took part inthreads involving finishing, cork handles, guide placement, and evensomemarketing issues. I believe that I did offer quite a bit to this list, andeven though I have never built a cane rod in my life, my respect for canerod builders is great, and I do know the joy of casting with cane. Someofyou may even remember the feature I put together about three years agoonthe cane craft at the Resources For Anglers site(http://absolute-sway.com/rfa/Feb98/) which I then turned into somearticleson the flyfishing site at About.com (http://flyfishing.about.com). I attended the Rod Guild conclave last weekend. I posted a review of theprogram on the flyfishing site, which if any of you are interested in,please read. I was very impressed with the quality of the presentationsanddemonstrations that took place, and believe me, Stan Smartt, a canebuilder from south Tennessee did you guys all very well down there. Hispresentation, in my opinion, was one of the highlights of the weekend,and Iknow that he certainly got quite a few people interested in the craft. Aswell, Mr. Demarest and his lovely wife were in attendance and broughtalongbamboo culms (which he also offered for sale), as well as put together awonderful display on how Tonkin cane is grown, selected, and harvested.Many of the attendees found this to be a great addition to the conclave. It seems to me that there is little harm that can come when cane rodbuilders in general take advantage of opportunities to promote theircraft,whether it be through fellowship of other rod builders who build as youcall, 'plastic' rods, through better marketing arrangements, or eventhroughlearning new things. Lets face it... you can build a rod exactly the sameas one of the 'fathers' of split cane, but still have a rod that is inferiorto someone else who discovers new processes, new ways of doing things,orquestions the 'old way' and discovers something better. As well, as much as I personally respect the skill and craftsmenshipthatgoes into a well built cane rod, that should not take anything away fromthecare, love, and skill that goes into a graphite or fibreglass rod made by aproud custom rod builder. Sure, he does not split something that wasonce aliving thing. Of course, he does not spend great deals of time planing,gluing, and doing all the other things that you do. But, he is building atool that will end up being the best it can be and his care and pride is noless than yours. I would bet that, believe it or not, he might even be ableto teach you a thing or two about guide spacing, getting a good finish onyour threads, over all aesthetics, rod balance, and many other thingsotherthan splitting a piece of Tonkin. As far as the 'power' issues that have been brought up in this thread, itismy understanding from speaking with Tom Greek, the founder of theGuild,that there is certainly no motive on his part to control rod building orweild great amounts of power. His concerns are in the marketing ofcustomrods with the view of being able to show anglers that there are optionsavailable to them other than simply going to the local Wal-Mart,Hardwareshop, or fly shop and buying a rod off the rack. Yes, this option alsoincludes cane rods as well. If your craft is to survive and thrive, many of you will need to sell rods.Perhaps as individuals, you have no need to add existing clients to yourbusiness. But what about others, the talented young man or woman, whocanbuild an awesome and beautiful tool, through your guidance, but simplycannot afford to pay for their skill in the purchase of better equipment,purchase of new cane, or could use the extra money working a part timejobat the local 7-11 rather than spending time building rods for free?Obviously, it is in the craft's interest to promote the business! I thinksome of us are afraid of two things: We are afraid of too manyindividualsbecoming involved in the craft and We are afraid of too many peoplewantingour rods. Ask yourself what it is you are afraid of? Are you afraid ofcompetition? Well.. the only way to ensure that cane rod buildingthrives(which of course, if it does, will most likely lower many of yourproductioncosts) is to ensure that others learn to build cane rods. Maybe many ofthese folks, just like many of you on this list, started out with graphite.How to reach those folks? Wouldn't you agree that by promoting the artofcane crafting, with a man like Stan Smartt at a rod guild conclave is anawesome opportunity? There are millions of anglers in North America. A custom or cane rod isnot choice,however. Convert some of these people to your way of thinking, even ifYOUcannot build the rods for them, and you will be ensuring that your grandchildren and great grand children have choices available to them as farasthe tools they use to fish with. I don't build rods anymore due to family problems a few years ago, whichmade it necessary for me to sell my house. When I moved, I simply hadnoroom to build any longer. Being at the conclave relit that spark insideme,and of course, I also want to make plans to attend Stan Smartt's weeklongclasses on cane rod building too. It was nice to find an individual whoclaimed that he learned some things as well, and could also teach usquite abit too. My 2cents. Ian Scott Mike,You're right, of course - in many ways we do function asa loose knit sortof guild. I know I have recommended several members of this listto potentialbuyers, especially for restoration work. Sometimes I thinkthat's even moretechnical than building a rod from scratch.But you know, there are a number of good rodmakers onthis list to whomI've never pointed anyone. Why? Not because their rods aren'tgood, but becausethey don't post much on the list, or they haven't made it to one of thegatherings, or I don't know them personally. As one of theheavier posters tothis list, almost everyone here at least knows my name. That gotme at least onereferral a few months ago. But there are lots of builders onhere with moreexperience and better rods than mine. In that respect my chiefqualification isthat I can type, and can often construct a grammatically correct Maybe it's time to get back to my original question: Didanyone go to theGuild Conclave? What are your thoughts? Harry Mike Biondo wrote: In today's world, I *think* being a member of a guilds says that youaresupposed to be technically competent, and potential customers canfeelconfident in purchasing from you. Do you really think this isa fact? Doyou think customers in today's world really look at suchthings? How canit be governed? What benefits could one realistically expect from being amember? We already have many conclaves in the form ofRodmakers Gatherings. I am very interested in hearing others thoughts on this also, though itjust seems to me that we are in fact, already a Guild... Mike - lots of questions, not many answers - BiondoSt. Louis, MO --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from castafly@gbis.com Sat Feb 26 14:24:18 2000 Subject: Small Lathes--which one?? Fellow rodmakers: I am interested in purchasing a small, hobby-type lathe mainly for rodmaking (including, hopefully, reel seats and ferrules some day). I hearthat some rod makers use Sherline lathes, but I was wondering if anyonehasany feedback on the new Grizzly small lathe (it's in the new Grizzlycatalog What is the best lathe for the money? Any recommendations/cautions would be greatly appreciated, as well asgoodplaces to buy one! Thanks! Jeff from flytyr@southshore.com Sat Feb 26 14:51:59 2000 Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:53:52 -0600 Subject: Re: Small Lathes--which one?? Jeff,Try this site http://www.egroups.com/group/7x10minilathe/There is more information on small lathes than you can imagine.I would look into the 7X12, the 7X10 may just be a little small. Afterbeing onthat list and reading all the pros and cons I decided on a 9x20.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Jeff Ferguson wrote: Fellow rodmakers: I am interested in purchasing a small, hobby-type lathe mainly for rodmaking (including, hopefully, reel seats and ferrules some day). I hearthat some rod makers use Sherline lathes, but I was wondering if anyonehasany feedback on the new Grizzly small lathe (it's in the new Grizzlycatalog ??What is the best lathe for the money? Any recommendations/cautions would be greatly appreciated, as well asgoodplaces to buy one! Thanks! Jeff from bob@downandacross.com Sat Feb 26 15:33:17 2000 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: Re: Small Lathes--which one?? Sherline 4400A at about $650. Great package to make reel seats, turn ferrule stations, make grips, and maybe even ferrules. The wheel driven cutters really add precision. I don't recall the Grizzly ones having that. Let me check, but I like my Sherline.My .02Bob At 12:24 PM 2/26/00 -0800, you wrote:Fellow rodmakers: I am interested in purchasing a small, hobby-type lathe mainly for rodmaking (including, hopefully, reel seats and ferrules some day). I hearthat some rod makers use Sherline lathes, but I was wondering if anyonehasany feedback on the new Grizzly small lathe (it's in the new Grizzlycatalog ??What is the best lathe for the money? Any recommendations/cautions would be greatly appreciated, as well asgoodplaces to buy one! Thanks! Jeff Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from CAIrvinerods@aol.com Sat Feb 26 15:45:52 2000 Subject: Titebond and age Chris, Interesting unplanned experiment, seems I have one or two of those also.My question to you and the group is when are glues like titebond too old. I think that a recent article in Fine Woodworking saidthat you should throw em out after so long but the author never did saywhat was too long, i.e., 1, 2, 3, 4 years? I don't think that any of us want to throw good glue away but you do not want to take a chance either. I know that on my epoxies I just keep flipping the bottles and they seem to work fine and I was told by an epoxy guy that they last a long time. Sowhat goes bad on white glues? Just wondering. Tight Lines to all, Chuck from paul.blakley@dtn.ntl.com Sat Feb 26 15:53:45 2000 helo=dtn.ntl.com) Subject: Re: Quad forms Shawn, To build a quad you need two planing forms.A friend of mine made aninety degree set and it was an absolute failure....the bamboo strips'rock' in the forms and just can't be planned .I would suggest you try to get a copy of The Planing Form News LetterIssue no 36 Nov/Dec 95-Four srip Rod Construction by JohnIrgens.....theirs a good design for quad forms therein......Paul B Shawn Pineo wrote: Does anyone know if a quad form follows the same taper in dimensionsasbuilding a hex form except 90 * instead of 60* ? If it is a differentpattern does someone out there have a pattern for quad forms?Shawn from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Feb 26 16:39:26 2000 (5.0.2195) Subject: Re: Titebond and age Chuck I use a lot of the Titebond and it rarely sits around too long but Iwould suspect when it starts to separate it may be getting old -consideringthe relative inexpensive cost - it is better to be safe than sorry. The ShellEpon seems to have an indefinite shelf life - I would not freeze it oranythinglike that but you should not have to worry about it. Chris On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:45:18 EST, CAIrvinerods@aol.com wrote: Chris, Interesting unplanned experiment, seems I have one or two of those also.My question to you and the group is when are glues like titebond too old. I think that a recent article in Fine Woodworking saidthat you should throw em out after so long but the author never did saywhat was too long, i.e., 1, 2, 3, 4 years? I don't think that any of us want to throw good glue away but you do not want to take a chance either. I know that on my epoxies I just keep flipping the bottles and they seemto work fine and I was told by an epoxy guy that they last a long time. Sowhat goes bad on white glues? Just wondering. Tight Lines to all, Chuck from channer1@rmi.net Sat Feb 26 18:12:33 2000 Subject: Re: Fw: HELP!!! Art Port wrote: Bob,I sure hope they will! I have a feeling the yahoos that took themhave no or something). I teach 12th year math in HS and my kids have to get TI83s,which are about $90 to $110 and look like Gameboys. I have to tell themtoguard against theft because some moron who thinks it's a video game islikely to steal it and pitch it in the garbage when they realize it's not.Good luck,ArtArt;Nobody around the San Juan would know what they were either, except me.Jim and Steve, everyone else fishes plastic. Sorry to hear about yourforms Bob, I hope they turn up.John from jfreeman@cyberport.com Sat Feb 26 18:35:35 2000 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Harry, You could be right - I really don't know for sure. Jim----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Rodmakers Guild (was Re: rod builders directory) Jim,Like you, I get the magazine, and have learned a bunch. Aren'tthe tiesyou mentioned between the magazine and the guild more of a mutualadmirationsociety than even a loose tie?Who knows - maybe all this talk of a guild just reinforces thegoodthing we've got going here on Rodmakers Listserv...... Harry from terrypaulsen@home.com Sat Feb 26 20:41:24 2000 (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP 0800 Subject: ferrule making question I am trying to make