http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html

from caneman@clnk.com Fri Mar 10 10:55:20 2000

(Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with
SMTP id com; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:52:08 -0600

"Rod Makers List Serve" Subject: Re: Ferrule Material

Darrell,Before you read this, understand that I am not trying to beat you
todeath with numbers, but being an engineer by nature, I look at things
frommechanical advantage/disadvantage points when I hear of a new idea
orinnovation... so don't take this wrong, but I did a little tinkering aroundlast
nite in the shop just to see what making the kind of tip over buttjoint you
suggest would involve.  Now, read it with a smile, and don't takeanything as a
flame here, it is just my point of view backed by a littlemeasuring, weighing
and calculating.I understand your point about wanting to see if something can
be donethat hasn't, and to a certain extent, I understand wanting to try
thingsnew, and that many of traditionalist (and I guess I am one to a
certainextent) don't want to hear about anything new being tried.  My point
is,that ferrules are cheap, and making a ferrule on a lathe is more
cost/timeeffective than trying to make a tapered fit bamboo "joint" on a
rod.  Yourpoint did get me curious, and I tried to set down and do a little
numbercrunching, and I think if you will do the same, you can see that the
castingcharacteristics of a rod with a tapered bamboo joint/ferrule would
bemuchmore affected than you think it would.  The taper would have to
bedrastically altered, especially in the first 10 inches aft of the joint.  Ithink
your wieght concerns over the nickel silver ferrules would beinsignificant. 
The amount of cane that would have to be added wouldweighmore than a set
of ferrules with walls 0.0175" thick (typical of a Super Ztype ferrule).
Considering the stress, shear and strain values of bamboocompared to that
of 18% nickel silver, the bamboo would have to be about8.5times as thick to
have the same effective strength as the Nickel silverferrules... that would
make a typical joint have to be almost .30" largerthan a traditional NS ferrule
joint, plus, since you have to taper up tothis joint, then, even if you do it very
rapidly, lets say you have a 2.5"area over which the "swell" is developed then
allow an inch for thetaperedfit on the butt end of it, then you have added a
piece of bamboo thatweighs6.4 grams... an 11/64ths Super Z type ferrule
weighs 5.0 grams (notguessingat these, weighed on my triple beam scales,
both ferrules and bamboo...andI did take a piece of scrap end cut 
from a blank, basically straight sandedon my belt sander, 
from a 1/2d inch section down to a .250d over the areawhere the swell would
have to put when planed or milled in, drilled theendof the scrap with a 1/8"
bit and used a violin peg reamer to ream out atapered hole in the end for a
butt section to go into... didn't take long, Ihave plenty of scrap!  LOL)  so you
are, actually not removing weight bygetting rid of the NS ferrule, but adding
weight. Note that the actualdimensions of my little test piece is about .050"
smaller than what wouldberequired to have the same strength as a NS
ferrule, so the weight wouldprobably be an couple of tenths of a gram more.
This much differencewoulddefinitely require more "meat" in the butt section
which adds more weighttothe overall rod.  Pretty much, it would be like
putting the weight of a17/64ths superZ ferrule on a 4 weight rod.  That is a
lot of difference.And again, I must reiterate aesthetics.  You have a rod with
a tip sectionthat would be, normally, relatively small at it's thickest point,
lets say.162 on my 6' 2wt, at its largest point, that now has a swell in it
that, inorder to be strong and reliable, that would now have to be swelled up
to.462... That is a half inch lump in the middle of an otherwise
steamlineddelicate rod... that normally weighs 48.5 grams (just finished one
so itwasconvenient to weigh the 2 wt) or 1.7 ounces, that now has at least
1.4gramsmore at the ferrule location(the bamboo of the butt has to fill the
taperedhole, so that would add another 2 grams to the joint) and (just
estimatinghere) probably another 4 grams added overall in the butt section
to add thematerial necessary to make up for the heavier ferrule, adding a
total of atleast 5.4 grams to the overall weight of the rod, making it over .2
ouncesheavier than a NS ferruled rod.As far as the power fiber issue, I do
have to disagree on that.  I havebuilt over 200 rods to day, and restored God
knows how many.  I tried thisconcept of removing outer material 
from a rod to change its castingcharacteristics on older 9 footers in making
them into 6 footers for otherpeople, and my experience is that the rods cast
like shit when you starttaking off very much of the outer layers.  The inner
layer of cane is pithand has no grain... that is all the power fibers are is the
grain of thegrass, and without those, the grass (cane) loses a lot of
thecharacteristics that make it what it is...You have done a lot of things and
posted them on this list that are veryinteresting, very good, very innovative,
and I appreciate that, but I failto see where there would be any advantage to
an innovation that wouldmake arod bulkier and heavier for the sake of saving
the cost of a set offerrules.One final note, if you are going try this, I would
like to suggest thatyou contact a Luthiers supply house and get a violin peg
shave (like a veryaccurate pencil sharpener) and a tapered reamer built for
violin pegs.  Thiswould give you as perfect a fit as possible on your tapered
joint.  I have aset, and if I remember right, they only cost about 30 each and I
thinkInternational Violin Supply (you can find them somewhere on the
net)carriesthem.

OK, Now I have a brain cramp and need more coffee!  *S*

Later,Bob

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Re: Ferrule Material

I think you have the wrong idea about my experimentsin rod building. It isn't
to make a rod to sell for$1000.00. Mostly it is to see if it can be done.People
making cane rods are so tradition bound, andeveryone is so afraid to do
something different becauseit might not be accepted by other cane rod
people thatnothing innovative ever gets tried.

Swelling the butt end of a tip section can't bedone over short enoughof a
physical area to NOT have a noticable effect thestress curve and theway the
rod casts.

Even if this does have a noticeable effect on the stresscurve, well then,
adjust the taper to compensate!

Well, now you have to turndown the tip end of the butt section to go inside it,
so unless younearlydouble the dimension of the butt end of the tip, then you
are going tohaveto turn the majority of the power fibers off of the end of
the buttsectionto get it to fit inside the tip...

As I have said before - "power fibers" at least whatmost people call "power
fibers" (the layer of tinyfibers right under the enamel) are highly overrated.I
have made rods where I planed away all the "powerfibers" and the rod casts
fine. It is not a softnoodle, it does not break at the touch of a feather,it
casts and fishes just fine.

And no, the taper isn't massive to compensate for theadded weight.
Remember we are getting rid of the weightof the metal ferrule, and even
more bamboo for the swelled sectiondoesn'tweigh as much as the metal.

Darryl

from cattanac@wmis.net Fri Mar 10 11:11:05 2000

mail4.wmis.net (8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id

Subject: Re: Taper alteration

The problem that you will hit is forshortening a taper is that the
naturalcompression pushes the shift dimensions off of the normal 5"
centers - sosome 'fudging' is needed

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Re: Taper alteration

Ernie,Is that length with the rod sections joined?  Joining the sections
iskindof standard when measuring.Shortening the taper by 11 inches is quite
a bit.  You're going from7'7"to 6'8" if I read you right.  I would plug the orignal
taper into Hexrodandshorten it with the computer.  But be aware that any
rod shortened nearlyafoot will be different than the original.

Harry

What is the correct way of shortening a 5 weight taper 
from 91 inchesto80inches and what effects would it have on the completed
rod?  The roddesignis given as a 7.5 foot rod but it's actual measured length
is 91 inches.

from Neil126@aol.com Fri Mar 10 11:20:27 2000

Subject: Planing Form Input

I would be interested if anyone has hadexperience with the Munro "Hex"
MasterSignature series of planing forms?

As I do not want to cause a great discussionon this subject, private
responces will workjust fine.

Thank you in advance for your input.

Neil Swanson

from rsgould@cmc.net Fri Mar 10 12:19:38 2000

Subject: Re: is this good cane?

Hi Gary,I think Harry's resonse was right on. Remember too, that culms are
usuallystraightened somewhat before they are shipped to us and that it's
possiblesome damage may have occurred in that process.Ray----- Original
Message -----

Subject: is this good cane?

folks,

i was straightening a piece of newly split cane last night. while holdinganode
over the heat gun, and applying my usual amount of (semi gentle)pressure,
the piece broke off, about a quarter inch 
from the node. breakwas clean and straight, rather than having the brush-
like effect offiberson each side. i've made two rods on the same heat gun
setting, samemethods, &c., without having seen such a phenom before. any
commentsonthequality of the culm? i seem to recall seeing a picture of a
similar breakin a book somewhere, and reading that it indicated a poor culm,
but idon'tremember where. tks, glm--------------------gary mischcdr, usn (ret.)

from rsgould@cmc.net Fri Mar 10 12:26:06 2000

Subject: Re: Taper alteration

Hi Ernie,If you would like to send me the existing taper of the rod in 5"
incrementsalong with the line size you plan to use and an indication of
whether or notthere is any broken or damaged pieces, I'd be glad to run a
computeranalysis for you and give you a recommendation.Ray----- Original
Message -----

Subject: Taper alteration

What is the correct way of shortening a 5 weight taper 
from 91 inchesto80inches and what effects would it have on the completed
rod?  The roddesignis given as a 7.5 foot rod but it's actual measured length
is 91 inches.Ernie Harrison

from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Fri Mar 10 13:00:10 2000

Subject: RE: Humidity and Finishes

Right. And if there was any doubt that rods adjust to ambient
humidityregardless of finish, the recent posts on shrinking and growing
ferrulesshould dispell them. If the bamboo inside a ferrule can change in
watercontent, as they clearly do, the same must certainly happen in the rest
ofthe rod.

That being the case, I can't think of any reason the waterproofness of
afinish would matter.

BK

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Re: Humidity and Finishes

As far as water vapor (ambient humidity) passage through a film of
finishisconcerned, it is: 1) inevitable; 2) unable to distinguish between
enteringor exiting; 3) constantly occuring over a rate of time that depends
upontype of finish and thickness of film

cheers, Bill-----------------------------------------------------Click here for Free
Video!!http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/

----- Original Message ----- 

mcdowellc@lanecc.edu>

RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu>

Subject: Humidity and Finishes

While we're on this subject I have a question for those that have read upon
this subject in the woodworking magazines or elsewhere.   Do thevarious
finishes differ in terms of how much total moisture is ever allowed to re-
enter the rod or do they really only differ in the rate of time ittakes 

Also, do the finishes that provide a slower rate of ambiant moistureentry, in
turn, provide a slower rate of ambiant moisture exiting the rod?  

Thanks,Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu 

from ernie2@pacbell.net Fri Mar 10 13:10:54 2000

sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8)with SMTP id  for

Subject: Re: Taper alteration

I guess my confusion was caused by my misunderstanding of what
pointsreallyare in a rod taper.  I was reading them as inches, but it seems
they mustbejust points along the rod length and can vary as far as actual
length ininches is concerned.  Example: a 90" rod that has 80 points in it's
taperwould have a point value equal to 1.125" and a 90" rod with 90 points
init's taper would have a point value of 1".  Is this correct?Ernie Harrison

from DNHayashida@aol.com Fri Mar 10 13:48:50 2000

Subject: Re: Ferrule Material

Bob,You are Right! I am Wrong! WHAT ever was I thinking??!!This tip over butt
ferrule is going in the trash can right now!!!

Next time I think of something new I'll clear it withyou first!

Thank you for setting me on the "Right Path".

Darryl

from brewer@teleport.com Fri Mar 10 14:03:53 2000

"hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAAc9t_s_; Fri Mar 10
12:03:492000

Subject: Re: Planing Form Input

I have one and am very satisfied. You should know that I have planed out
5rods so far, so I'm no expert. I had no problems with Jon. Everything
wasasrepresented.

-Randy Brewer

----- Original Message -----

Subject: Planing Form Input

I would be interested if anyone has hadexperience with the Munro "Hex"
MasterSignature series of planing forms?

As I do not want to cause a great discussionon this subject, private
responces will workjust fine.

Thank you in advance for your input.

Neil Swanson

from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Mar 10 14:06:31 2000

Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:06:09 -0800

Subject: Re: Taper alteration

Ernie,No, you had it right the first time, but I think I can help.  Many of
thepublished tapers seem to be 10" or so shorter than the actual rod length.
Thelast 10 inches is usually not measured because it is under the grip and
thereelseat.  We usually assume that the measurements under the cork and
reelseat arethe same as the largest measurement.  To convert that 80
inchmeasurement into arod of 90 inches, just use the same measurement at
80", 85", and 90". Thatshould do the trick.

0 - .0705 - .078etc,75 - .31880 - .335One can fairly safely assume that the
measurements at 85 and 90inches willalso be .335.

Hope this helps,Harry

Ernie Harrison wrote:

I guess my confusion was caused by my misunderstanding of what
pointsreallyare in a rod taper.  I was reading them as inches, but it seems
they mustbejust points along the rod length and can vary as far as actual
length ininches is concerned.  Example: a 90" rod that has 80 points in it's
taperwould have a point value equal to 1.125" and a 90" rod with 90 points
init's taper would have a point value of 1".  Is this correct?Ernie Harrison

--Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/

from dannyt@frisurf.no Fri Mar 10 15:30:55 2000

(MET)

Subject: Re: Taper alteration

boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3035658476_23245_MIME_Part"

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does
notunderstandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3035658476_23245_MIME_Part

To all...

Is the same happening if You lenghten it as well, I mean will it differentmuch 
from the original?

regardsdanny------>--------work 

From: Harry Boyd 

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:22:11 -0600

Cc: Rodmakers Subject: Re: Taper alteration

Ernie,Is that length with the rod sections joined?  Joining the sections is
kindof standard when measuring.Shortening the taper by 11 inches is quite a
bit.  You're going 
from  7'7"to 6'8" if I read you right.  I would plug the orignal taper into
Hexrod andshorten it with the computer.  But be aware that any rod
shortenednearly afoot will be different than the original.

Harry

--MS_Mac_OE_3035658476_23245_MIME_Part

Re: Taper alteration

To all...

Is the same happening if You lenghten it as well, I mean will it different =much 
from the original?

regardsdanny

Danny Twang

section=s is kind

into Hexrod and

shortene=d nearly a

--MS_Mac_OE_3035658476_23245_MIME_Part--

from nobler@satx.rr.com Fri Mar 10 17:19:32 2000

SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19);Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:20:18 -0600

Subject: Re: Humidity and Finishes

Now that I think of it, I have an unfinished extra tip to my PHY #11Parabolic,
that split the male ferrule, just sitting in its case. It wouldstill fit the female
though !

GMA----- Original Message -----

Subject: RE: Humidity and Finishes

Right. And if there was any doubt that rods adjust to ambient
humidityregardless of finish, the recent posts on shrinking and growing
ferrulesshould dispell them. If the bamboo inside a ferrule can change in
watercontent, as they clearly do, the same must certainly happen in the
restofthe rod.

That being the case, I can't think of any reason the waterproofness of
afinish would matter.

BK

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 7:58 AM

Subject: Re: Humidity and Finishes

As far as water vapor (ambient humidity) passage through a film
offinishisconcerned, it is: 1) inevitable; 2) unable to distinguish between
enteringor exiting; 3) constantly occuring over a rate of time that depends
upontype of finish and thickness of film

cheers, Bill-----------------------------------------------------Click here for Free
Video!!http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/

----- Original Message -----From: "CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL"
mcdowellc@lanecc.edu>

RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu>Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 9:04
PMSubject: Humidity and Finishes

While we're on this subject I have a question for those that have
readuponthis subject in the woodworking magazines or elsewhere.   Do
thevariousfinishes differ in terms of how much total moisture is ever allowed
tore-enter the rod or do they really only differ in the rate of time ittakes

Also, do the finishes that provide a slower rate of ambiant moistureentry,in
turn, provide a slower rate of ambiant moisture exiting the rod?

Thanks,Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu

from rafick@3riversweb.net Fri Mar 10 17:39:25 2000

0000

Subject: re.BFR

I have been thinking about all the comments about the BFR mag.Instead of
writing it off as a lost cause, wouldn't it be in the bestinterest of all cane
rodmakers to see the idea succeed.?What can we do to help bring this
about.? I don't know any details of theproblems other than the obvious
$$$$$$ involved with putting out apublication such as this,(high quality) not a
lot I can do about that.Any suggestions welcome.

Rick

R.A.Fick Bamboo FlyrodsThe best rods are being made
today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/

from harms1@prodigy.net Fri Mar 10 18:32:00 2000

Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:31:44 -0500

Subject: Re: Stain??

boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0058_01BF8AC7.32D04C20"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BF8AC7.32D04C20

Well that's true of most anniline dyes, but there are some that do not =fade. 
Moreover, if one uses a good exterior-grade varnish (spar or =poly), these
usually have the needed UV filters in the formula.

cheers, Bill

-----------------------------------------------------Click here for Free
Video!!http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/

Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 9:44 AMSubject: Re: Stain??

The only problem with aniline dye is that it fades easily in sun =light, due the
ultra-violet. A sun blocker is required to stop this.

GMA

Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 8:03 AMSubject: Re: Stain??

You might want to try the aniline dyes, as these are not stains, as =such. 
Stains gain their effect by depositing micro-particles of color =onto (and
amongst) the surface grain, whereas dyes have no such =particles, so the
thin liquid will sink right into the wood surface.  =

to add that I have not tried to dye bamboo.

cheers, Bill-----------------------------------------------------Click here for Free
Video!!http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/

From: "CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL" 

Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 3:37 PMSubject: re: Stain??

A long time ago I tried staining a bamboo blank.  I used the =

In my opinion it didn't work very well.  The bamboo was so =

didn't want to retain the color, and when I would wipe the excess =

after allowing it to sit for a while, the color would wipe away =

tried to leave it on a little thicker and the result was that it =

to dry.  I realize these problems may be specific to the product I =

Chris

---------- Original Text ----------

From: "John Hewitt" , on 3/9/00 12:16 PM:

To All,Just curious, has anyone ever used stain on a raw blank? =Or isthe
only way to get color to heat treat or flame? What are the =plussesand or
drawbacks to staining bamboo?John

------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BF8AC7.32D04C20

Well that's trueof =

exterior-grade varnish (spar or poly), these usually have the needed UV =

in the formula.

Bill

-----------------------------------------------------Clickhere =

Free Video!!http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/

----- Original Message ----- 

nobler 

=

Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 =

AMSubject: Re: Stain??

The only problem with aniline dye is that it fades easily in sun =

due the ultra-violet. A sun blocker is required to stop this.

GMA

----- Original Message ----- 

HARMS 

=

Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 =

AMSubject: Re: Stain??

You might wantto =

effect by depositing micro-particles of color onto =

to add that I =

to dye bamboo.

Bill-------------------------------------------------

here for Free Video!!http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/----- Original=

From: =

Sent: Thursday,=

2000 3:37 PM

Stain??

A =

it on a little thicker and the result was that it didn't want =

Just curious, has anyone ever used stain on a raw blank? Or =

only way to get color to heat treat or flame? What are the =

------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BF8AC7.32D04C20--

from anglport@con2.com Fri Mar 10 21:42:29 2000

(SMTPD32-5.05) id A03926C6008C; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 22:40:41 -0500

Subject: RE: Humidity and Finishes

All,As I'm sure John Channer and several others on the list will
confirm,woodpanles like tabletops are supposed to be finished on both sides
so that theconstant movement of the wood doesn't cause them to cup due
to one sideabsorbing more moisture than the other. Not because one side
WILL absorband the other WON'T, but because they'll do it at different rates.
This isalso the reason that fully-finished panels are left to "float" in
theframes of doors and carcases of bureaus etc. I have read this,
disbelievedit, and personally confirmed it! Not on more than one piece,
thankfully; IAM trainable!The stuff doesn't ever DIE! (I know, we're talking
grass and not wood,but......) It's in constant movement as the seasons and
ambienttemperatures and humidities change. I suspect all we ever do is fit
thecane so that its natural swelling and shrinking is narrowed enough so
it"lives" within the ferrule without shrivelling away 
from the inner surfaceor expanding so much it destroys its "confinement".I
have built many pieces of furniture with varnish finishes whichwillstand a
sweating ice-filled glass standing and dripping on the surface allnight and not
show ill effects, but those same surfaces will change sizeorshape 
from August to Feb every lousy year.I must admit, I was surprised to read
that Fine Woodworking articleawhileback on the benefits of immersing in wax
over a good varnishing, but thebest we can do, I think, is to slow the
absorption/release rate enough soit doesn't gallop back and forth like an
overeager puppy!No scotch rings on my rods (but some on my planing
forms),Art

At 12:59 PM 03/10/2000 -0600, Kling, Barry W. wrote:

Right. And if there was any doubt that rods adjust to ambient
humidityregardless of finish, the recent posts on shrinking and growing
ferrulesshould dispell them. If the bamboo inside a ferrule can change in
watercontent, as they clearly do, the same must certainly happen in the rest
ofthe rod.

That being the case, I can't think of any reason the waterproofness of
afinish would matter.

BK

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 7:58 AM

Subject: Re: Humidity and Finishes

As far as water vapor (ambient humidity) passage through a film offinish
isconcerned, it is: 1) inevitable; 2) unable to distinguish between enteringor
exiting; 3) constantly occuring over a rate of time that depends upontype of
finish and thickness of film

cheers, Bill-----------------------------------------------------Click here for Free
Video!!http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/

----- Original Message ----- From: "CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL"
mcdowellc@lanecc.edu>

RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu>Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 9:04
PMSubject: Humidity and Finishes

While we're on this subject I have a question for those that have read upon
this subject in the woodworking magazines or elsewhere.   Do thevarious
finishes differ in terms of how much total moisture is ever allowed to re-
enter the rod or do they really only differ in the rate of time ittakes 

Also, do the finishes that provide a slower rate of ambiant moistureentry, in
turn, provide a slower rate of ambiant moisture exiting the rod?  

Thanks,Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu 

from stpete@netten.net Fri Mar 10 22:15:14 2000

Fri, 10 Mar 2000 22:19:54 -0600

Subject: Reply to BFR - rant warning! do not read if easily offended.

Rick, 

Of course it would be in our interest to see it succeed!!  But is this alabor of
love? OR, does the publisher expect to make a profit?  Why doesthe publisher
not send out a notice of his problems and what he is doingto correct them -
he obviously has some major ones.  Customers areusually understanding if
they are dealt with honestly.  At this point,however, it seems the most
insurmountable obstacle for the future ofthis magazine is the one he is
creating with the ill will generated byboth his failure to meet obligations AND
his silence.  I was quick tosend the check for the charter subscription, but I'll
be hanged if I amgoing to support an entity that doesn't have the courtesy to
let thecustomer know what is going on.  Why should they have to rely on
goodpeople like you, Darryl, Bret, and Ralph to stick up for them?  Whycan't
they send a monthly e-mail to this list and let the group knowwhat is going
on?

I learned to build rods as many of this list did.  I had a book andsomehow
found this group.  I've learned more 
from the good people ofthis list than I have 
from the BFR.  Too bad.  There is just not enoughinterest to make it go I'm
afraid.  Fact is, it is probably moreimportant to professional rod builders and
collectors than it is to theaverage Joe rodbuilder on this list.  I'm sorry if Mr.
Metcalf is havinga rough go of it.  I don't sense that he cares one way or the
otherabout the customer.  After all the late issues and the public
postingshere and on VFS about "what is happening with BFR?", the only word
Ihave heard 
from Mr. Metcalf is that it is time for me to renew.  I ammore than willing to
pay for the magazine, but I feel it is time to letthis go and move on.

Rick C.

R.A.Fick wrote:

I have been thinking about all the comments about the BFR mag.Instead of
writing it off as a lost cause, wouldn't it be in the bestinterest of all cane
rodmakers to see the idea succeed.?What can we do to help bring this
about.? I don't know any details of theproblems other than the obvious
$$$$$$ involved with putting out apublication such as this,(high quality) not a
lot I can do about that.Any suggestions welcome.

Rick

R.A.Fick Bamboo FlyrodsThe best rods are being made
today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/

from paul.blakley@dtn.ntl.com Sat Mar 11 04:17:20 2000

helo=dtn.ntl.com)

Subject: Re: Reply to BFR - rant warning! do not read if easily offended.

Rick C,

Agreed........Paul B

"Rick C." wrote:

Rick,

Of course it would be in our interest to see it succeed!!  But is this alabor of
love? OR, does the publisher expect to make a profit?  Why doesthe publisher
not send out a notice of his problems and what he is doingto correct them -
he obviously has some major ones.  Customers areusually understanding if
they are dealt with honestly.  At this point,however, it seems the most
insurmountable obstacle for the future ofthis magazine is the one he is
creating with the ill will generated byboth his failure to meet obligations AND
his silence.  I was quick tosend the check for the charter subscription, but I'll
be hanged if I amgoing to support an entity that doesn't have the courtesy to
let thecustomer know what is going on.  Why should they have to rely on
goodpeople like you, Darryl, Bret, and Ralph to stick up for them?  Whycan't
they send a monthly e-mail to this list and let the group knowwhat is going
on?

I learned to build rods as many of this list did.  I had a book andsomehow
found this group.  I've learned more 
from the good people ofthis list than I have 
from the BFR.  Too bad.  There is just not enoughinterest to make it go I'm
afraid.  Fact is, it is probably moreimportant to professional rod builders and
collectors than it is to theaverage Joe rodbuilder on this list.  I'm sorry if Mr.
Metcalf is havinga rough go of it.  I don't sense that he cares one way or the
otherabout the customer.  After all the late issues and the public
postingshere and on VFS about "what is happening with BFR?", the only word
Ihave heard 
from Mr. Metcalf is that it is time for me to renew.  I ammore than willing to
pay for the magazine, but I feel it is time to letthis go and move on.

Rick C.

R.A.Fick wrote:

I have been thinking about all the comments about the BFR mag.Instead of
writing it off as a lost cause, wouldn't it be in the bestinterest of all cane
rodmakers to see the idea succeed.?What can we do to help bring this
about.? I don't know any details oftheproblems other than the obvious $$$$$$
involved with putting out apublication such as this,(high quality) not a lot I
can do about that.Any suggestions welcome.

Rick

R.A.Fick Bamboo FlyrodsThe best rods are being made
today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/

from nobler@satx.rr.com Sat Mar 11 07:21:05 2000

SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:21:34 -0600

Subject: Re: Reply to BFR - rant warning! do not read if easily offended.

This is the main thing..........silence ! If we were given any encouragementthat
he will fill orders even, I think most would ride it out with him. Youmay be
correct Rick, about the volume not being enough to support it, butwith
today's fly fishing population, it's hard to believe there's not enoughinterest.

I ordered the back issues, because I found the one issue so interesting,
andwas prepared to send another check for a new subscription, until I
neverreceived the back issues !

GMA----- Original Message -----

Subject: Reply to BFR - rant warning! do not read if easily offended.

Rick,

Of course it would be in our interest to see it succeed!!  But is this alabor of
love? OR, does the publisher expect to make a profit?  Why doesthe publisher
not send out a notice of his problems and what he is doingto correct them -
he obviously has some major ones.  Customers areusually understanding if
they are dealt with honestly.  At this point,however, it seems the most
insurmountable obstacle for the future ofthis magazine is the one he is
creating with the ill will generated byboth his failure to meet obligations AND
his silence.  I was quick tosend the check for the charter subscription, but I'll
be hanged if I amgoing to support an entity that doesn't have the courtesy to
let thecustomer know what is going on.  Why should they have to rely on
goodpeople like you, Darryl, Bret, and Ralph to stick up for them?  Whycan't
they send a monthly e-mail to this list and let the group knowwhat is going
on?

I learned to build rods as many of this list did.  I had a book andsomehow
found this group.  I've learned more 
from the good people ofthis list than I have 
from the BFR.  Too bad.  There is just not enoughinterest to make it go I'm
afraid.  Fact is, it is probably moreimportant to professional rod builders and
collectors than it is to theaverage Joe rodbuilder on this list.  I'm sorry if Mr.
Metcalf is havinga rough go of it.  I don't sense that he cares one way or the
otherabout the customer.  After all the late issues and the public
postingshere and on VFS about "what is happening with BFR?", the only word
Ihave heard 
from Mr. Metcalf is that it is time for me to renew.  I ammore than willing to
pay for the magazine, but I feel it is time to letthis go and move on.

Rick C.

R.A.Fick wrote:

I have been thinking about all the comments about the BFR mag.Instead of
writing it off as a lost cause, wouldn't it be in the bestinterest of all cane
rodmakers to see the idea succeed.?What can we do to help bring this
about.? I don't know any details oftheproblems other than the obvious $$$$$$
involved with putting out apublication such as this,(high quality) not a lot I
can do about that.Any suggestions welcome.

Rick

R.A.Fick Bamboo FlyrodsThe best rods are being made
today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/

from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sat Mar 11 07:46:32 2000

Subject: Re: Turnaround for REC components

I've had the same experience that Ray has had-all good.Hank.

from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sat Mar 11 07:48:55 2000

Subject: Re: tapers

Frank and Jerry,Just a short note to thank you both for your excellent work.
While I haven't used everything available that you've developed for the
rodmakers (I'm still graphing my tapers to design or alter them-some will
never seethe light of day again :) ), what I have used has been
great.Regards,Hank.

from ernie2@pacbell.net Sat Mar 11 09:09:38 2000

sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8)with SMTP id  for

Subject: Re: Taper alteration

Thanks to every one who responded to my question, My problem was
thatsometapers did not include the part under the grip and reel seat and did
notstate this.Ernie Harrison

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Re: Taper alteration

Hi Ernie,If you would like to send me the existing taper of the rod in
5"incrementsalong with the line size you plan to use and an indication of
whether ornotthere is any broken or damaged pieces, I'd be glad to run a
computeranalysis for you and give you a recommendation.Ray----- Original
Message -----From: Ernie Harrison 

Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 7:03 AMSubject: Taper alteration

What is the correct way of shortening a 5 weight taper 
from 91 inchesto80inches and what effects would it have on the completed
rod?  The roddesignis given as a 7.5 foot rod but it's actual measured length
is 91 inches.Ernie Harrison

from oossg@vbe.com Sat Mar 11 09:51:10 2000

Subject: Re: re.BFR

boundary="------------F5A9B217A9B5D68AB99AC930"

--------------F5A9B217A9B5D68AB99AC930

RickI agree with you that we should want to see this mag succeed.  I sent e-
mailto the BFR  and offered to send a self addressed STAMPED envelope to
sendmethe latest edition.I never received any reply.  Very disappointed.Scott

"R.A.Fick" wrote:

I have been thinking about all the comments about the BFR mag.Instead of
writing it off as a lost cause, wouldn't it be in the bestinterest of all cane
rodmakers to see the idea succeed.?What can we do to help bring this
about.? I don't know any details of theproblems other than the obvious
$$$$$$ involved with putting out apublication such as this,(high quality) not a
lot I can do about that.Any suggestions welcome.

Rick

R.A.Fick Bamboo FlyrodsThe best rods are being made
today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/

--------------F5A9B217A9B5D68AB99AC930

Rick

STAMPEDenvelope to send me the latest edition.

Scott"R.A.Fick" wrote:I have been thinking about all the comments aboutthe
BFR mag.Instead of writing it off as a lost cause, wouldn't it be in the
bestinterest of all cane rodmakers to see the idea succeed.?What can we do
to help bring this about.? I don't know any detailsof theproblems other than
the obvious $$$$$$ involved with putting out apublication such as this,(high
quality) not a lot I can do about that.Any suggestions welcome.RickR.A.Fick
Bamboo FlyrodsThe best rods are being made
today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/

--------------F5A9B217A9B5D68AB99AC930--

from ggwillia@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 11 10:41:13 2000

Subject: South Bend Reel Seat

I'm looking for a South Bend reel seat manufactured during the 50'sand 60's
if anyone has one they'd like to sell. Thanks.

from paul.blakley@dtn.ntl.com Sat Mar 11 11:40:52 2000

helo=dtn.ntl.com)

Mar 2000 17:33:16 +0000

Subject: Abercrombie & Fitch Hardy Banty Rods

Can anyone on the list supply me with a taper for the Hardy 4'4" BantyRod
they produced for the New York sporting goods store Abercrombie andFitch
?Any other details about this particular model would also be
appreciated.Hardy's have one of these rods in there museum in Alnwick,
England butall attempts to get an inspection of the rod or details released
havebeen unsuccesful.

Many thanks......Paul B

from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Mar 11 13:49:08 2000

Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:48:35 -0400

Subject: Re: Abercrombie & Fitch Hardy Banty Rods

I would also like to see that. ThanksShawn Pineo

paul.blakley@dtn.ntl.com wrote:

Can anyone on the list supply me with a taper for the Hardy 4'4" BantyRod
they produced for the New York sporting goods store AbercrombieandFitch
?Any other details about this particular model would also be
appreciated.Hardy's have one of these rods in there museum in Alnwick,
England butall attempts to get an inspection of the rod or details released
havebeen unsuccesful.

Many thanks......Paul B

from chris@artistree.com Sat Mar 11 13:54:10 2000

Subject: Re: South Bend Reel Seat

This is just an idea...well...actually I did do it once. I used a SouthBend Reel
Seat off one of their fiberglass rods as replacement. Workedout well.--
Regards,

Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com

Gary Williams wrote:

I'm looking for a South Bend reel seat manufactured during the 50'sand 60's
if anyone has one they'd like to sell. Thanks.

from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sat Mar 11 14:40:56 2000

Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8)with SMTP id 
forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:39:53

Subject: Guide placement

I'm just finishing an F.E. Thomas, 6'8" 3 wt 
from Howell's book. Wouldanyone have a decent guide placement for such a
rod?

Thanks in advance,

Richard

from saweiss@flash.net Sat Mar 11 15:04:03 2000

Subject: Re: is this good cane?

Gary,The ones that I've broken like that, I've overheated. If the strip
isotherwise worthy, You can scarf repair it as though it were a
nodelesssplice.Steve

i was straightening a piece of newly split cane last night. while holdinganode
over the heat gun, and applying my usual amount of (semi gentle)pressure,
the piece broke off, about a quarter inch 
from the node. breakwas clean and straight, rather than having the brush-
like effect offiberson each side. i've made two rods on the same heat gun
setting, samemethods, &c., without having seen such a phenom before. any
commentsonthequality of the culm? i seem to recall seeing a picture of a
similar breakin a book somewhere, and reading that it indicated a poor culm,
but idon'tremember where. tks, glm--------------------gary mischcdr, usn (ret.)

from dannyt@frisurf.no Sat Mar 11 15:23:03 2000

(MET)

Subject: PHY Princess

Does anybody on the list have the taper for the PHY Princess?I've search the
archive but couldn't find it....

TIAdanny

------>--------work 

from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sat Mar 11 16:48:24 2000

Subject: RE: Ferrule Material

Bob - 

With a similar no-flame disclaimer......my Dad is also an engineer and Ilove him
very much. But one of the things I've learned about engineers isthat in the
absence of empirical testing they can come up with a very niceexplanation,
complete with math, for whatever seems likely to them. Theelegance and
plausibility of the explanation has little relationship to itscorrectness.
Sometimes engineers even prefer their reasoning to reality.Inresponse to
this my father coined one of my favorite expressions. When hewould be out
on the testing range in New Mexico or somewhere like that(hewas in
aerospace) and something went wrong and the engineers couldn'tunderstand
it, they often called it a random failure. The next timesomething worked, my
father would say it didn't mean a damn thing, andwhenthey asked why he'd
explain it was just a random success.

So my conclusion is.....don't be so sure until it is tested in the realworld. 

Barry

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Re: Ferrule Material

Darrell,Before you read this, understand that I am not trying to beat you
todeath with numbers, but being an engineer by nature, I look at
thingsfrommechanical advantage/disadvantage points when I hear of a new
idea orinnovation... so don't take this wrong, but I did a little
tinkeringaroundlast nite in the shop just to see what making the kind of tip
over buttjoint you suggest would involve.  Now, read it with a smile, and
don'ttakeanything as a flame here, it is just my point of view backed by a
littlemeasuring, weighing and calculating.I understand your point about
wanting to see if something can bedonethat hasn't, and to a certain extent, I
understand wanting to try thingsnew, and that many of traditionalist (and I
guess I am one to a certainextent) don't want to hear about anything new
being tried.  My point is,that ferrules are cheap, and making a ferrule on a
lathe is morecost/timeeffective than trying to make a tapered fit bamboo
"joint" on a rod.Yourpoint did get me curious, and I tried to set down and do a
little numbercrunching, and I think if you will do the same, you can see that
thecastingcharacteristics of a rod with a tapered bamboo joint/ferrule would
bemuchmore affected than you think it would.  The taper would have to
bedrastically altered, especially in the first 10 inches aft of the joint.Ithink
your wieght concerns over the nickel silver ferrules would beinsignificant. 
The amount of cane that would have to be added wouldweighmore than a set
of ferrules with walls 0.0175" thick (typical of a SuperZtype ferrule).
Considering the stress, shear and strain values of bamboocompared to that
of 18% nickel silver, the bamboo would have to be about8.5times as thick to
have the same effective strength as the Nickel silverferrules... that would
make a typical joint have to be almost .30"largerthan a traditional NS ferrule
joint, plus, since you have to taper up tothis joint, then, even if you do it very
rapidly, lets say you have a2.5"area over which the "swell" is developed then
allow an inch for thetaperedfit on the butt end of it, then you have added a
piece of bamboo thatweighs6.4 grams... an 11/64ths Super Z type ferrule
weighs 5.0 grams (notguessingat these, weighed on my triple beam scales,
both ferrules and bamboo...andI did take a piece of scrap end cut 
from a blank, basically straightsandedon my belt sander, 
from a 1/2d inch section down to a .250d over theareawhere the swell would
have to put when planed or milled in, drilled theendof the scrap with a 1/8"
bit and used a violin peg reamer to ream out atapered hole in the end for a
butt section to go into... didn't takelong, Ihave plenty of scrap!  LOL)  so you
are, actually not removing weight bygetting rid of the NS ferrule, but adding
weight. Note that the actualdimensions of my little test piece is about .050"
smaller than whatwould berequired to have the same strength as a NS
ferrule, so the weight wouldprobably be an couple of tenths of a gram more.
This much differencewoulddefinitely require more "meat" in the butt section
which adds moreweight tothe overall rod.  Pretty much, it would be like
putting the weight of a17/64ths superZ ferrule on a 4 weight rod.  That is a
lot of difference.And again, I must reiterate aesthetics.  You have a rod with
a tipsectionthat would be, normally, relatively small at it's thickest point,
letssay.162 on my 6' 2wt, at its largest point, that now has a swell in itthat,
inorder to be strong and reliable, that would now have to be swelled up
to.462... That is a half inch lump in the middle of an
otherwisesteamlineddelicate rod... that normally weighs 48.5 grams (just
finished one so itwasconvenient to weigh the 2 wt) or 1.7 ounces, that now
has at least 1.4gramsmore at the ferrule location(the bamboo of the butt
has to fill thetaperedhole, so that would add another 2 grams to the joint)
and (justestimatinghere) probably another 4 grams added overall in the butt
section to addthematerial necessary to make up for the heavier ferrule,
adding a total ofatleast 5.4 grams to the overall weight of the rod, making it
over .2ouncesheavier than a NS ferruled rod.As far as the power fiber issue,
I do have to disagree on that.  Ihavebuilt over 200 rods to day, and restored
God knows how many.  I triedthisconcept of removing outer material 
from a rod to change its castingcharacteristics on older 9 footers in making
them into 6 footers forotherpeople, and my experience is that the rods cast
like shit when you starttaking off very much of the outer layers.  The inner
layer of cane ispithand has no grain... that is all the power fibers are is the
grain of thegrass, and without those, the grass (cane) loses a lot of
thecharacteristics that make it what it is...You have done a lot of things and
posted them on this list that areveryinteresting, very good, very innovative,
and I appreciate that, but Ifailto see where there would be any advantage to
an innovation that wouldmake arod bulkier and heavier for the sake of saving
the cost of a set offerrules.One final note, if you are going try this, I would
like to suggestthatyou contact a Luthiers supply house and get a violin peg
shave (like averyaccurate pencil sharpener) and a tapered reamer built for
violin pegs.Thiswould give you as perfect a fit as possible on your tapered
joint.  Ihave aset, and if I remember right, they only cost about 30 each and I
thinkInternational Violin Supply (you can find them somewhere on the
net)carriesthem.

OK, Now I have a brain cramp and need more coffee!  *S*

Later,Bob

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Re: Ferrule Material

I think you have the wrong idea about my experimentsin rod building. It isn't
to make a rod to sell for$1000.00. Mostly it is to see if it can be done.People
making cane rods are so tradition bound, andeveryone is so afraid to do
something different becauseit might not be accepted by other cane rod
people thatnothing innovative ever gets tried.

Swelling the butt end of a tip section can't bedone over short enoughof a
physical area to NOT have a noticable effect thestress curve and theway the
rod casts.

Even if this does have a noticeable effect on the stresscurve, well then,
adjust the taper to compensate!

Well, now you have to turndown the tip end of the butt section to go inside it,
so unless younearlydouble the dimension of the butt end of the tip, then you
are goingtohaveto turn the majority of the power fibers off of the end of the
buttsectionto get it to fit inside the tip...

As I have said before - "power fibers" at least whatmost people call "power
fibers" (the layer of tinyfibers right under the enamel) are highly overrated.I
have made rods where I planed away all the "powerfibers" and the rod casts
fine. It is not a softnoodle, it does not break at the touch of a feather,it
casts and fishes just fine.

And no, the taper isn't massive to compensate for theadded weight.
Remember we are getting rid of the weightof the metal ferrule, and even
more bamboo for the swelled sectiondoesn'tweigh as much as the metal.

Darryl

from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Mar 11 17:01:11 2000

Subject: Thanks

I would just like to thank everyone who sent positive counters to thenegative
"FERTILIZER" I received 
from a couple of  people this past weekabout franken tools. Everyone is
entitled to their opinion I guess ;^)I have a lot of fun with these tools and the
funny comments andquestions they produce. Hopefully once things die down
a bit (do theyever really die down?) after this sportsman's show I will try to
updatethe page a bit and maybe even finally get my web page done.Thanks
again,Shawn

from caneman@clnk.com Sat Mar 11 17:32:00 2000

(Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with
SMTP id com; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:28:45 -0600

"Rod Makers List Serve" Subject: Re: Ferrule Material

Barry,I understand what you are saying and by no means take it as a
flame,andI wasn't telling Darryl not to try it, as a matter of fact, I even
suggestedwhere he could get the proper tools to make the taper fit he wants
tomake,as precise as would be necessary.You are right, it's my nature I
guess to make assumptions based onempirical evidence (math, measuring
and weighing of the pieces, etc.) andtheory and not so much on testing.  My
point is, if I am going to design anew and improved duck, and I do all the
calculations build some of theparts, do the math and measurements, then I
put all the parts and figuresonpaper, scaled carefully, and it looks more like
an elephant than a duck,then I am not going to build.  Especially when I have a
shop full ofperfectly good "traditional" duck parts.  Darryl was right to
wonder, andshould continue on to build this if he so desires.  Nothing wrong
with that,and I would like to see what it turns out like and how well it
functions asopposed to a traditional rod.  Darryl took my message as being
degrading,while, if he had read it completely, he would have seen that he
sparked mycuriosity so much that I DID make a tapered section of bamboo
with ataperedhole in it, much like I understood his "over the butt" ferrule idea
torepresent, and after weighing it found it to be heavier than a NS
ferrule.Only difference was that when I built the bamboo "ferrule" to see if it
hadany merit, I relied on known properties and values and not on merely
"letmetry it this way".   As one who is obviously educated in the sciences, I
feelsure you understand my approach.To be honest, now I wish I hadn't
screwed with it at all.  Darryl gothis feelings hurt because either I disagreed
with the validity of his idea,or because of the comment I made about
removing the power fibers 
from acanerod (not sure which one yanked his chain, but obviously one of
them did),and my goal was definitely not to hurt his feelings, rather was to
showhimand anyone else on the list what I found out using a somewhat
scientificapproach to "paper testing" his idea.  If he hadn't been so overly
sensitiveand so obviously offended that someone might challenge his idea,
then hecould have written "Bob, do you mind telling me more about what you
did?Howlong was the piece you measured? What kind of scales did you use? 
Do youthink there is a different way of doing this?"  Instead, he chose to
fireback at me in a tone that was obviously smarta$$, not only to me but
toeveryone else on the list.I still say, however, that if he tries this and it
works, I'll be thefirst one in line to say "Darryl, I was WRONG!!!", but still think,
even onthe long chance that it does work, it is still going to be an ugly
joint...Another concern I had about it was the tapered joint... a taper fit
isgreat for compression or for rational strength... no good at all for
theshear stresses and strains caused by casting.  Again, NO test here, but
canjust picture two false casts, and then the tip going out into the current.

Later,Bob-----Original Message-----

Subject: RE: Ferrule Material

Bob -

With a similar no-flame disclaimer......my Dad is also an engineer and Ilove him
very much. But one of the things I've learned about engineers isthat in the
absence of empirical testing they can come up with a veryniceexplanation,
complete with math, for whatever seems likely to them. Theelegance and
plausibility of the explanation has little relationship to itscorrectness.
Sometimes engineers even prefer their reasoning to reality.Inresponse to
this my father coined one of my favorite expressions. Whenhewould be out
on the testing range in New Mexico or somewhere like that(hewas in
aerospace) and something went wrong and the engineers couldn'tunderstand
it, they often called it a random failure. The next timesomething worked, my
father would say it didn't mean a damn thing, andwhenthey asked why he'd
explain it was just a random success.

So my conclusion is.....don't be so sure until it is tested in the realworld.

Barry

-----Original Message-----From: Bob Nunley

Sent: 3/10/00 10:54 AMSubject: Re: Ferrule Material

Darrell,Before you read this, understand that I am not trying to beat you
todeath with numbers, but being an engineer by nature, I look at
thingsfrommechanical advantage/disadvantage points when I hear of a new
idea orinnovation... so don't take this wrong, but I did a little
tinkeringaroundlast nite in the shop just to see what making the kind of tip
over buttjoint you suggest would involve.  Now, read it with a smile, and
don'ttakeanything as a flame here, it is just my point of view backed by a
littlemeasuring, weighing and calculating.I understand your point about
wanting to see if something can bedonethat hasn't, and to a certain extent, I
understand wanting to try thingsnew, and that many of traditionalist (and I
guess I am one to a certainextent) don't want to hear about anything new
being tried.  My point is,that ferrules are cheap, and making a ferrule on a
lathe is morecost/timeeffective than trying to make a tapered fit bamboo
"joint" on a rod.Yourpoint did get me curious, and I tried to set down and do a
little numbercrunching, and I think if you will do the same, you can see that
thecastingcharacteristics of a rod with a tapered bamboo joint/ferrule would
bemuchmore affected than you think it would.  The taper would have to
bedrastically altered, especially in the first 10 inches aft of the joint.Ithink
your wieght concerns over the nickel silver ferrules would beinsignificant. 
The amount of cane that would have to be added wouldweighmore than a set
of ferrules with walls 0.0175" thick (typical of a SuperZtype ferrule).
Considering the stress, shear and strain values of bamboocompared to that
of 18% nickel silver, the bamboo would have to be about8.5times as thick to
have the same effective strength as the Nickel silverferrules... that would
make a typical joint have to be almost .30"largerthan a traditional NS ferrule
joint, plus, since you have to taper up tothis joint, then, even if you do it very
rapidly, lets say you have a2.5"area over which the "swell" is developed then
allow an inch for thetaperedfit on the butt end of it, then you have added a
piece of bamboo thatweighs6.4 grams... an 11/64ths Super Z type ferrule
weighs 5.0 grams (notguessingat these, weighed on my triple beam scales,
both ferrules and bamboo...andI did take a piece of scrap end cut 
from a blank, basically straightsandedon my belt sander, 
from a 1/2d inch section down to a .250d over theareawhere the swell would
have to put when planed or milled in, drilled theendof the scrap with a 1/8"
bit and used a violin peg reamer to ream out atapered hole in the end for a
butt section to go into... didn't takelong, Ihave plenty of scrap!  LOL)  so you
are, actually not removing weight bygetting rid of the NS ferrule, but adding
weight. Note that the actualdimensions of my little test piece is about .050"
smaller than whatwould berequired to have the same strength as a NS
ferrule, so the weight wouldprobably be an couple of tenths of a gram more.
This much differencewoulddefinitely require more "meat" in the butt section
which adds moreweight tothe overall rod.  Pretty much, it would be like
putting the weight of a17/64ths superZ ferrule on a 4 weight rod.  That is a
lot of difference.And again, I must reiterate aesthetics.  You have a rod with
a tipsectionthat would be, normally, relatively small at it's thickest point,
letssay.162 on my 6' 2wt, at its largest point, that now has a swell in itthat,
inorder to be strong and reliable, that would now have to be swelled up
to.462... That is a half inch lump in the middle of an
otherwisesteamlineddelicate rod... that normally weighs 48.5 grams (just
finished one so itwasconvenient to weigh the 2 wt) or 1.7 ounces, that now
has at least 1.4gramsmore at the ferrule location(the bamboo of the butt
has to fill thetaperedhole, so that would add another 2 grams to the joint)
and (justestimatinghere) probably another 4 grams added overall in the butt
section to addthematerial necessary to make up for the heavier ferrule,
adding a total ofatleast 5.4 grams to the overall weight of the rod, making it
over .2ouncesheavier than a NS ferruled rod.As far as the power fiber issue,
I do have to disagree on that.  Ihavebuilt over 200 rods to day, and restored
God knows how many.  I triedthisconcept of removing outer material 
from a rod to change its castingcharacteristics on older 9 footers in making
them into 6 footers forotherpeople, and my experience is that the rods cast
like shit when you starttaking off very much of the outer layers.  The inner
layer of cane ispithand has no grain... that is all the power fibers are is the
grain of thegrass, and without those, the grass (cane) loses a lot of
thecharacteristics that make it what it is...You have done a lot of things and
posted them on this list that areveryinteresting, very good, very innovative,
and I appreciate that, but Ifailto see where there would be any advantage to
an innovation that wouldmake arod bulkier and heavier for the sake of saving
the cost of a set offerrules.One final note, if you are going try this, I would
like to suggestthatyou contact a Luthiers supply house and get a violin peg
shave (like averyaccurate pencil sharpener) and a tapered reamer built for
violin pegs.Thiswould give you as perfect a fit as possible on your tapered
joint.  Ihave aset, and if I remember right, they only cost about 30 each and I
thinkInternational Violin Supply (you can find them somewhere on the
net)carriesthem.

OK, Now I have a brain cramp and need more coffee!  *S*

Later,Bob

-----Original Message-----From: DNHayashida@aol.com 

Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 9:40 AMSubject: Re: Ferrule Material

I think you have the wrong idea about my experimentsin rod building. It isn't
to make a rod to sell for$1000.00. Mostly it is to see if it can be done.People
making cane rods are so tradition bound, andeveryone is so afraid to do
something different becauseit might not be accepted by other cane rod
people thatnothing innovative ever gets tried.

Swelling the butt end of a tip section can't bedone over short enoughof a
physical area to NOT have a noticable effect thestress curve and theway the
rod casts.

Even if this does have a noticeable effect on the stresscurve, well then,
adjust the taper to compensate!

Well, now you have to turndown the tip end of the butt section to go inside it,
so unless younearlydouble the dimension of the butt end of the tip, then you
are goingtohaveto turn the majority of the power fibers off of the end of the
buttsectionto get it to fit inside the tip...

As I have said before - "power fibers" at least whatmost people call "power
fibers" (the layer of tinyfibers right under the enamel) are highly overrated.I
have made rods where I planed away all the "powerfibers" and the rod casts
fine. It is not a softnoodle, it does not break at the touch of a feather,it
casts and fishes just fine.

And no, the taper isn't massive to compensate for theadded weight.
Remember we are getting rid of the weightof the metal ferrule, and even
more bamboo for the swelled sectiondoesn'tweigh as much as the metal.

Darryl

from caneman@clnk.com Sat Mar 11 17:41:56 2000

(Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with
SMTP id com for ;Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:38:45 -0600

Subject: correction to post

boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF8B80.EA10AF60"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF8B80.EA10AF60

on the last post I made

great for compression or for rational strengthshould have beengreat for
compression or for rotational strength

Bob

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF8B80.EA10AF60

on the last post I made

compression or for rational strength

should have been

strength

Bob

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF8B80.EA10AF60--

from mschaffer@mindspring.com Sat Mar 11 20:52:16 2000

Subject: John Bokstrom's splitting technique

Hey gang,I just finished splitting for another rod, this time using John
Bokstrom'stechnique and if you haven't tried it, you should! I've split a couple
ofdifferent ways, and this method yielded the greatest number of strips
andthe easiest splitting I've yet done ( not that I'm Mr. Experience by
anymeans).Being that this next rod is to be another blond rod, and having had
muchohassls the last time I split for a blond rod, I tried something
different.This time prior to splitting I heated the culm sections to 250
degrees for10 minutes to drive off some of the moisture, then started
splitting.  Iused this temp because I figured that it would be low enough not
to impartmuch, if any, color change, yet be high enough to drive off some of
theinternal moisture, thus better splitting. It seemed to work out the way
Ihad hoped, and using John's method,  I've had an enjoyable
splittingsession.Now, if someone would send me John's email address, I would
like tocontacthim privately.Thanks guys,

Mike

from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sat Mar 11 20:58:32 2000

Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8)with SMTP id 
forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:58:27

Subject: Guide placement

I spent a good part of this evening trying to work out a good guideplacement
scheme for my F.E. Thomas 6'8" 3 wt taper. The closest ready-madeguide
placement I could find was in Garrison's book, for his 6'9" taper.There were
two things I didn't like about this placement, however. Thestripping guide was
only 22 3/4 inches 
from the butt a bit close I feel.Also, Garrison uses 9 guides for this this
fairly short rod. Jack Howellhas a chart for a 6'6" guide placement in his book
that uses one less guideand places the ferrule guide on the tip section rather
than the butt.Pretty neat idea but I still needed to do some adjustments for
my slightlylonger taper.

I then remembered Wayne's Guide program that came on the Hexrod
disk.Whata great tool!! Using Wayne's program, I quickly came up with a
guideplacement which looks pretty good. Since this rod is quite popular, here
isthe guide placement I came up with. Perhaps this will save someone a
fewhours work.

tip top5 1/810 13/1617233038 1/2 (just above ferrule)

46 5/855 5/16 (stripping guide 24 7/16 
from butt)

If anyone knows the actual guide placement on this rod, I'd love to knowit.

Thanks, Wayne, for a really useful tool.

Richard

from stpete@netten.net Sat Mar 11 21:27:20 2000

Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:32:06 -0600

Subject: Re: Guide placement

Thanks, Richard!  I just split out strips for that taper this veryevening. 
Saved me some time and I appreciate it.

Rick C.

Richard Nantel wrote:

I spent a good part of this evening trying to work out a good guideplacement
scheme for my F.E. Thomas 6'8" 3 wt taper. The closest ready-madeguide
placement I could find was in Garrison's book, for his 6'9" taper.There were
two things I didn't like about this placement, however. Thestripping guide was
only 22 3/4 inches 
from the butt a bit close I feel.Also, Garrison uses 9 guides for this this
fairly short rod. Jack Howellhas a chart for a 6'6" guide placement in his book
that uses one lessguideand places the ferrule guide on the tip section rather
than the butt.Pretty neat idea but I still needed to do some adjustments for
myslightlylonger taper.

I then remembered Wayne's Guide program that came on the Hexrod
disk.Whata great tool!! Using Wayne's program, I quickly came up with a
guideplacement which looks pretty good. Since this rod is quite popular,
hereisthe guide placement I came up with. Perhaps this will save someone
afewhours work.

tip top5 1/810 13/1617233038 1/2 (just above ferrule)

46 5/855 5/16 (stripping guide 24 7/16 
from butt)

If anyone knows the actual guide placement on this rod, I'd love to knowit.

Thanks, Wayne, for a really useful tool.

Richard

from ldavis@coweblink.net Sat Mar 11 22:35:12 2000

COWEBLINK1(MailMax 3.064) with ESMTP id14877310 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000
21:34:37-0700 MST

Subject: Wayne's Guide Program

I then remembered Wayne's Guide program that came on the Hexrod disk

Is the program available anyplace else?

Lowell DavisWinter Park Colorado

from nobler@satx.rr.com Sat Mar 11 22:55:54 2000

SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Sat, 11 Mar 2000 22:45:01 -0600

Subject: Re: John Bokstrom's splitting technique

Can anyone send a copy of this technique, or where to find it ? I thought
Irecalled saving it, but NOT !

Thanks,

GMA----- Original Message -----

Subject: John Bokstrom's splitting technique

Hey gang,I just finished splitting for another rod, this time using John
Bokstrom'stechnique and if you haven't tried it, you should! I've split a couple
ofdifferent ways, and this method yielded the greatest number of
stripsandthe easiest splitting I've yet done ( not that I'm Mr. Experience by
anymeans).Being that this next rod is to be another blond rod, and having had
muchohassls the last time I split for a blond rod, I tried something
different.This time prior to splitting I heated the culm sections to 250
degreesfor10 minutes to drive off some of the moisture, then started
splitting.  Iused this temp because I figured that it would be low enough not
toimpartmuch, if any, color change, yet be high enough to drive off some of
theinternal moisture, thus better splitting. It seemed to work out the way
Ihad hoped, and using John's method,  I've had an enjoyable
splittingsession.Now, if someone would send me John's email address, I would
like tocontacthim privately.Thanks guys,

Mike

from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sat Mar 11 23:25:38 2000

Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:25:30 -0800

Subject: Re: John Bokstrom's splitting technique

George,

John's technique is on Frank Neunemann's (sp?) page.  There's a link to it

from Rodmakers.Harry

nobler wrote:

Can anyone send a copy of this technique, or where to find it ? I thought
Irecalled saving it, but NOT !

--Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/

from saweiss@flash.net Sat Mar 11 23:25:53 2000

Subject: Re: Abercrombie & Fitch Hardy Banty Rods

Per a message 
from Ray Gould:The Hardy A&F Banty 4'-4" x 2pc x 1 ounce rod:0 = 0,070, 5
= 0.088, 10 = 0.107, 15 = 0.0.119, 20 = 0.133, 25 = 0.146. 30= 0.175,35 =
0.182, 40 = 0.190, 45 = 0.205 (estimate under cork).

These dimensions were taken on unvarnished cane.

I would also like to see that. ThanksShawn Pineo

paul.blakley@dtn.ntl.com wrote:

Can anyone on the list supply me with a taper for the Hardy 4'4" BantyRod
they produced for the New York sporting goods store AbercrombieandFitch
?Any other details about this particular model would also
beappreciated.Hardy's have one of these rods in there museum in Alnwick,
England butall attempts to get an inspection of the rod or details released
havebeen unsuccesful.

Many thanks......Paul B

from mrmac@tcimet.net Sun Mar 12 05:22:18 2000

(envelope-
from mrmac@tcimet.net)

Subject: Varmor R10

OK, finally I got the "right stuff", the R10, 
from my not so localsupplier.  Opened the can this morning in eager
anticipation of it'swonders and was somewhat surprised to see that it was
not clear, butrather, had a lot of suspended flakey sorta stuff and also what
lookedlike a lot of "dust" type particulate matter floating all around in it.

Help!  Is this the normal appearance for R10, or do I have a bad quart?

Thanks, once again, for your comments and help.

mac

from rsgould@cmc.net Sun Mar 12 08:55:01 2000

Subject: Re: Varmor R10

Hi Ralph,I had the same experience on a recent order of R-10 and returned
the cantothe supplier who then replaced it at no charge. The replacement
was clearasis normal and works perfectly as it has for so many years.Ray----
- Original Message -----

Subject: Varmor R10

OK, finally I got the "right stuff", the R10, 
from my not so localsupplier.  Opened the can this morning in eager
anticipation of it'swonders and was somewhat surprised to see that it was
not clear, butrather, had a lot of suspended flakey sorta stuff and also what
lookedlike a lot of "dust" type particulate matter floating all around in it.

Help!  Is this the normal appearance for R10, or do I have a bad quart?

Thanks, once again, for your comments and help.

mac

from stpete@netten.net Sun Mar 12 09:12:13 2000

Subject: [Fwd: BFR might make me eat some of my words]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------57C15214F0D

This message never showed up on my e-mail, though I'm getting
othersmessages.   I'm sending it again.  Sorry if it is a duplicate. Or ifMike
has decided to delete this for breaking some rule regardingcommercialism.

Rick

--------------57C15214F0D

Subject: BFR might make me eat some of my words

Well, I received an e-mail 
from the BAMBOO FLY ROD today!  It was quitepositive, but didn't let me in on
the status of the magazine's viabilityor the possible ship dates.  I have asked
them to consider sending aninformative notice of such to this list.  I don't
know what constraintsthey feel that they have with such discussions in this
or any otherforum, but I think that it would go a long way in restoring the
faith oftheir customers in the magazine.

Rick Crenshaw

--------------57C15214F0D--

from horsesho@ptd.net Sun Mar 12 09:22:59 2000

0000

(204.186.33.105)

Subject: Re: Varmor R10

Ray Gould wrote:

Hi Ralph,I had the same experience on a recent order of R-10 and returned
the cantothe supplier who then replaced it at no charge. The replacement
wasclear asis normal and works perfectly as it has for so many years.Ray----
- Original Message -----From: Ralph MacKenzie 

Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 3:21 AMSubject: Varmor R10

OK, finally I got the "right stuff", the R10, 
from my not so localsupplier.  Opened the can this morning in eager
anticipation of it'swonders and was somewhat surprised to see that it was
not clear, butrather, had a lot of suspended flakey sorta stuff and also what
lookedlike a lot of "dust" type particulate matter floating all around in it.

Help!  Is this the normal appearance for R10, or do I have a bad quart?

Thanks, once again, for your comments and help.

mac

I had the same problem. I bought 2 qts and one qt was clear and one hadthe
problem you spoke of. Istrained the qt and had no problems. Marty

from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sun Mar 12 09:44:11 2000

Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8)with SMTP id 
forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 10:33:15

Subject: RE: BFR might make me eat some of my words

Only list members can post to the list so perhaps ask BFR to send thenotice
to you and you can then forward it to the list.

Richard

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 7:50 PM

Subject: BFR might make me eat some of my words

Well, I received an e-mail 
from the BAMBOO FLY ROD today!  Itwas quitepositive, but didn't let me in on
the status of themagazine's viabilityor the possible ship dates.  I have asked
them to consider sending aninformative notice of such to this list.  I don't
know whatconstraintsthey feel that they have with such discussions in this
or any otherforum, but I think that it would go a long way in restoringthe
faith oftheir customers in the magazine.

Rick Crenshaw

from tlongair@home.com Sun Mar 12 13:33:14 2000

(InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP

0800

Subject: heat treating

Hi all,Thanks for your recipes for heat treating. Now I have a problem, my
heat gun setup didn't work as well aspreviously and over 1 1/2 feet of the
strips Max temperatures of 400degrees for 5 - 7 minutes was achieved. The
cane over this area turned adarker colour.  My problem is, this section
doesn't plane as well as thelighter area and the shavings are crumbly and
dry.  The strips seem tobend in a U without breaking. Is there a way to
determine if the stripsare overheated?  Should I take a chance and finish the
rod or cut mylosses and begin again?  Thanks.

Terry Longair

from martinjensen@home.com Sun Mar 12 14:29:09 2000

(InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP

Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:29:07 -0800

Subject: RE: heat treating

I like a destructive test. A test to the death so to speak. Take a"over-
heated" strip and an unheated strip 
from the same culm and bendthemuntil breaking. Do they both feel the same
when they break? Don't have aspare spline? Are the splines long enough so
that you can sacrifice a bitoff of one end? Start by breaking a bunch of the
scrap strips that you(must)  have. Breaking them is a really good way to feel
the strength ofthebamboo and also so you get the "feel" of what you are
working with.If the spline just snaps in half, then it is junk. If it is keep
breaking itso that you will get the feel of bad vs. good.If it breaks like the
unheated stuff, then go for it and build a rod. If itends up being crap (unlikely
but it is possible) you haven't really wastedanything. You have just refined
your overall rod building skills. Kind of awin win situation. Again, if it just
breaks, I wouldn't bother building withit. I would use it for break testing. This
is really important I think.IMHO 
from my experience, 
from what you have described, I'm betting thatyourbamboo is good. when you
temper the bamboo, it will plane a little harderand as you have described.
Remember, it is not as soft as it once was.Now if you just heat treated a
section of 1.5 ft, well you are going to havesome interesting action there in
addition to most likely a noticeable colordifference. All in all though, I
wouldn't let just that one factor stop me

from proceeding.Martin Jensen

-----Original Message-----

Subject: heat treating

Hi all,Thanks for your recipes for heat treating.Now I have a problem, my
heat gun setup didn't work as well aspreviously and over 1 1/2 feet of the
strips Max temperatures of 400degrees for 5 - 7 minutes was achieved. The
cane over this area turned adarker colour.  My problem is, this section
doesn't plane as well as thelighter area and the shavings are crumbly and
dry.  The strips seem tobend in a U without breaking. Is there a way to
determine if the stripsare overheated?  Should I take a chance and finish the
rod or cut mylosses and begin again?  Thanks.

Terry Longair

from dannyt@frisurf.no Sun Mar 12 15:09:54 2000

Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:55:28 +0100 (MET)

Subject: Re: heat treating

RodmakersList 

On my second rod, I experinced tha same thing, forgot to turn the
heatgundown when the oven was ready. Same result, the upper halv of the
canewasmuch darker. I also had problem planning it, but took it as
aplanningpractice, glued up the splines and tryed the U-bend test. The
rodbroke in two, and I noticed a very strange feeling in the cane. It was
justlike the fibres slided inside the rod, and the brake had long fibres justlike
a brush. Just my experince for what its worth.....

danny------>--------work 

From: "Martin Jensen" 

Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:28:50 -0800

Subject: RE: heat treating

I like a destructive test. A test to the death so to speak. Take a"over-
heated" strip and an unheated strip 
from the same culm and bendthemuntil breaking. Do they both feel the same
when they break? Don't have aspare spline? Are the splines long enough so
that you can sacrifice a bitoff of one end? Start by breaking a bunch of the
scrap strips that you(must)  have. Breaking them is a really good way to feel
the strength ofthebamboo and also so you get the "feel" of what you are
working with.If the spline just snaps in half, then it is junk. If it is keep
breaking itso that you will get the feel of bad vs. good.If it breaks like the
unheated stuff, then go for it and build a rod. If itends up being crap (unlikely
but it is possible) you haven't really wastedanything. You have just refined
your overall rod building skills. Kind of awin win situation. Again, if it just
breaks, I wouldn't bother buildingwithit. I would use it for break testing. This
is really important I think.IMHO 
from my experience, 
from what you have described, I'm betting thatyourbamboo is good. when you
temper the bamboo, it will plane a littleharderand as you have described.
Remember, it is not as soft as it once was.Now if you just heat treated a
section of 1.5 ft, well you are going tohavesome interesting action there in
addition to most likely a noticeablecolordifference. All in all though, I wouldn't
let just that one factor stop me

from proceeding.Martin Jensen

-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu

Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 11:31 AM

Subject: heat treating

Hi all,Thanks for your recipes for heat treating.Now I have a problem, my
heat gun setup didn't work as well aspreviously and over 1 1/2 feet of the
strips Max temperatures of 400degrees for 5 - 7 minutes was achieved. The
cane over this area turned adarker colour.  My problem is, this section
doesn't plane as well as thelighter area and the shavings are crumbly and
dry.  The strips seem tobend in a U without breaking. Is there a way to
determine if the stripsare overheated?  Should I take a chance and finish the
rod or cut mylosses and begin again?  Thanks.

Terry Longair

from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sun Mar 12 15:43:12 2000

Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8)with SMTP id 
forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:42:33

placement

My apologies. I made a couple of typos in the guide placements in myprevious
e-mail. Here is the actual placement 
from Cattanach's Guideprogram for a 6'8" taper:

tip top5 1/810 13/161723 5/830 13/1638 1/2 (just above ferrule)

46 5/855 5/16 (stripping guide 24 7/16 
from butt)

Richard-----Original Message-----

Subject: Guide placement

I spent a good part of this evening trying to work out a good guideplacement
scheme for my F.E. Thomas 6'8" 3 wt taper. The closest ready-madeguide
placement I could find was in Garrison's book, for his 6'9" taper.There were
two things I didn't like about this placement, however. Thestripping guide was
only 22 3/4 inches 
from the butt a bit close I feel.Also, Garrison uses 9 guides for this this
fairly short rod. Jack Howellhas a chart for a 6'6" guide placement in his book
that uses one less guideand places the ferrule guide on the tip section rather
than the butt.Pretty neat idea but I still needed to do some adjustments for
my slightlylonger taper.

I then remembered Wayne's Guide program that came on the Hexrod
disk.Whata great tool!! Using Wayne's program, I quickly came up with a
guideplacement which looks pretty good. Since this rod is quite popular, here
isthe guide placement I came up with. Perhaps this will save someone a
fewhours work.

tip top5 1/810 13/1617233038 1/2 (just above ferrule)

46 5/855 5/16 (stripping guide 24 7/16 
from butt)

If anyone knows the actual guide placement on this rod, I'd love to knowit.

Thanks, Wayne, for a really useful tool.

Richard

from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Sun Mar 12 16:01:51 2000

(InterMail vM.4.01.02.31a 201-229-119-114) with ESMTP

+0000

Subject: Darkening chromed steel

This may have been covered a while ago, but here goes.  I have allblackened
hardware for a particular rod, all except the tip top, thatis.  I need a method
for blackening hard chrome on the guide.  Is thereanything aside 
from the pen trick?  I did that and it doesn't look toobad (I'll use it if I have
to), but I'm sure it's not as durable as achemical corrosion blackening
process.

Any ideas out there?

TIA,

Dennis

from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Mar 12 16:57:02 2000

Subject: Re: Darkening chromed steel

In a message dated 3/12/0 10:08:10 PM,
HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.netwrites:

from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun Mar 12 16:59:16 2000

Subject: Re: Darkening chromed steel

In a message dated 03/12/2000 5:08:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net writes:

Dennis,There is nothing you can do chemically, todarken hard chrome. Believe
me, I've tried them all.

Dave LeClair

http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html

from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Sun Mar 12 17:20:26 2000

(InterMail vM.4.01.02.31a 201-229-119-114) with ESMTP

;Sun, 12 Mar 2000 23:19:53 +0000

Subject: Re: Darkening chromed steel

Tom,

You're absolutely right.  I have a bottle of Dave LeClair's Payne sol'nand a
bottle of Birchwood Casey's Brass Black and niether of themworked.  After
they both failed (I kind of expected them to) I had at itwith an old petri dish
marker that I "borrowed" 
from my microbiologydays.  It doesn't look all that bad.

Next time I'll order more black tip tops.  

Live and learn...  

Dennis

TSmithwick@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 3/12/0 10:08:10 PM,
HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.netwrites:

I am afraid you have a problem. I think you will find the chromeimperviousto
any chemical treatment, and paint won't stick well to it either. I havehad
good luck with the commercially available black chrome tip tops.They areeven
a reasonable match for the old style snake guides. I would suggestyouorder
some of them.

from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun Mar 12 17:21:41 2000

SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Sun, 12 Mar 2000 17:21:53 -0600

Subject: Re: Darkening chromed steel

The only way to even get epoxy to stick to chrome, is to etch it withmuratic
acid. This acid will remove all the chrome, if left in it very long,but swabbing
with it, using a Q-tip, just might work. A black chrome topwould be much
better.

GMA----- Original Message -----

Subject: Re: Darkening chromed steel

In a message dated 3/12/0 10:08:10 PM,
HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.netwrites:

I am afraid you have a problem. I think you will find the chromeimperviousto
any chemical treatment, and paint won't stick well to it either. I havehad
good luck with the commercially available black chrome tip tops.Theyareeven
a reasonable match for the old style snake guides. I would suggestyouorder
some of them.

from djfinch@sprintmail.com Mon Mar 13 08:22:33 2000

Subject: test delete now

from dickay@alltel.net Mon Mar 13 10:34:10 2000

KAA09727

Subject: Test

boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF8CD6.BAE7B2E0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF8CD6.BAE7B2E0

Am I on?  It seems awfully quite!

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF8CD6.BAE7B2E0

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF8CD6.BAE7B2E0--

from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Mon Mar 13 10:47:15 2000

Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:44:39 -0600

R8.30.00.7)

Subject: Unbinding the bound (Nyatex and thread removal)

A while back someone posted about removing the binding thread 
from a Nyatex glued section and then rebinding the section. Wayne
subsequently posted that he had tried it and it worked great. I saved those
posts, took them home for my notebook and SHMBO tossed it outat some
point (can't find it in the archives). So, I just tried this- glued up a butt
section with Nyatex and pulled off the thread about 16 hours later and
rebound it to be heat tempered later. The question is- Is this the best time
to pull the thread or should I do it either earlier or later after gluing? The
thread came off OK with a little resistance, I'm just not sure how the tip will
respond to the same handling. Anyone know what the optimal way to
approach this in the Nyatex glued section is?Thanks for any info.Jon
McAnulty

from yves@dancris.com Mon Mar 13 12:33:58 2000

[208.201.203.128] (may be forged))

Subject: Binding

List:  I recall reading a posting 
from Dave LeClair that mentioned bindingglued up rods without a binder.  I
believe that there was also somethingabout using an old Penn bait casting
reel for tensioning.  Has anyone gotsome tips about using this procedure -
any "pitfalls"?  Dave - do you stilldo it this way?  Thanks, Dave LaT.

from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 13 14:47:27 2000

Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:47:19 -0800

Subject: Re: Unbinding the bound (Nyatex and thread removal)

mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu wrote:

I'm just not sure how the tip will respond to the samehandling. Anyone know
what the optimal way to approach this in theNyatex glued section is?Thanks
for any info.Jon McAnulty

Jon,I think Richard Tyree made the original post, and I may have followedup
on it.  If the times you tried worked, then stick with them.  As soon as Ibind
the blank, I wash it down with white vinegar.  Doing so removes about80%of
the excess glue.  The next day (8-16 hours) I remove the originalbindingcord,
and carefully wash down the bare blank with vinegar again. 
Thissecondwashing removes almost all the remaining excess glue.  I then re-
bind, andheatset the glue.I don't know that this is the "optimal way to
approach this" as youwrote, but it is a good way.  Be careful with the glued
blank during thesecondwashing and binding, and you should be okay.

Harry--Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/

from saltwein@swbell.net Mon Mar 13 16:41:02 2000

(Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8)with ESMTP id  for

Subject: Franken tools

I have been planing to make a drying/drawing booth, to put a drawn polyfinish
on my strips and dry them. I have several notebooks full of plansand three or
four materials list.

Today, inspired by the Franktool posts, I made one 
from cardboard,viscuine, duct tape, and a one foot square of luan paneling. It
workslike a charm, is light as a feather and breaks down. All materials
wereon hand.

Regards, SteveIndependence, MO

from saltwein@swbell.net Mon Mar 13 16:52:35 2000

(Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8)with ESMTP id  for

Subject: Chan Bamboo Report

I received my shipment of bamboo 
from Cary Chan today.

This will make the fourth source for some 24 sticks of bamboo that Ihave
purchased. I mention this to give some background to my report;least some
imagine I have much more experience.

The ten culms are a golden brown color, and straight with no evidence
ofscorching to straighten. Several culms have a few leaf node areas
andthere is the normal scarring and water marks. No growers marks.

The culms are between 1-7/8 inch to 2-1/2 inches, with most falling inthe
two inch range. They have good heft and power fiber with no visiblesign of
worm damage or mold. Of the ten culms only two had any randomsplitting,
and it was minimal.

Viewing the ten culms, laid out on a workbench, after putting the dryingsplit
in them, brought a huge smile to my face. This compares favorablywith any
cane I have bought and I wouldn't mind having the rafters fullof it.

Still looking for that exceptional, flawless culm.

Regards, SteveIndependence, MO

from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 13 17:47:53 2000

(InterMail vM.4.01.02.31a 201-229-119-114) with ESMTP

;Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:47:20 +0000

"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Unbinding the bound (Nyatex and
thread removal)

Jon,

I glue with Epon.  After the glue is set (~24 hours) I just pull thestring off.  It
comes off in a single strand.  Then I sand the glueresidue off with a sanding
block loaded with 220 grit wet/dry paper.  Iwould suggest sanding the string
and excess glue off with the block ifyou can't just pull it off.  

Dennis

mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu wrote:

A while back someone posted about removing the binding thread
fromaNyatex glued section and then rebinding the section.
Waynesubsequently posted that he had tried it and it worked great. I
savedthose posts, took them home for my notebook and SHMBO tossed it
outatsome point (can't find it in the archives). So, I just tried this-glued up a
butt section with Nyatex and pulled off the thread about 16hours later and
rebound it to be heat tempered later. The question is-Is this the best time to
pull the thread or should I do it eitherearlier or later after gluing? The thread
came off OK with a littleresistance, I'm just not sure how the tip will respond
to the samehandling. Anyone know what the optimal way to approach this in
theNyatex glued section is?Thanks for any info.Jon McAnulty

from lblove@cableone.net Mon Mar 13 19:23:35 2000

Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11);Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:22:51 -0700

Subject: 4' 4" banty rod

boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8D21.158D9260"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8D21.158D9260

Should I put a #8 stripping guide on a 4'4" 4 wt. rod(which should =throw 5
wt. do to .003 oversize) on this rod, or should I use a large =snake guide as
the Hardy Banty's had?  This is not a rod of beauty as =this is my first rod
that will be finished and will more than likely be =used for "perch jerkin" over
the next few months.  Also would a 5" long =handle be about right?  Any
smaller and my hand will not fit on the =grip.

Brad

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8D21.158D9260

Hello guy, 

guide =

4 wt. rod(which should throw 5 wt. do to .003 oversize) on this rod, or =

beauty as this is my first rod that will be finished and will more than =

grip.

TIA Brad

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8D21.158D9260--

from dickay@alltel.net Mon Mar 13 19:26:37 2000

TAA11863;

Subject: Re: Unbinding the bound (Nyatex and thread removal)

Jon,

Are these the posts that you are talking about.

from Jerry Foster 1/26/98 4:42 PM

Tom,  I think several of us are using Nyatex, but the issue can get
awfullypolitical if it wasn't specifically tested.. by the way, I've found that ifI
re-roll (?) the glued blanks on fresh paper about and hr. or so aftergluing, I
can unwrap the binding thread 24/4 at the 16 hr mark whout muchproblem,
makes sanding a little easier, don't have to file.RegardsJerry

from Wayne Cattanach 1/26/98 5:14 PM

Tom -   Yes there are many makers using Nyatex glue - If you missed
itthereis now a method of rebinding the glued strips at 16-24 hour air
drying(temperature dependant) - before thermo steeing - this allows the
threadbeing removed after heat curing and solves the need to file or sand
thethread off.

Hope that this helps.  I save some of these for future reference too.

Dick Fuhrman----- Original Message -----

Subject: Unbinding the bound (Nyatex and thread removal)

A while back someone posted about removing the binding thread
fromaNyatex glued section and then rebinding the section.
Waynesubsequently posted that he had tried it and it worked great. I
savedthose posts, took them home for my notebook and SHMBO tossed it
outatsome point (can't find it in the archives). So, I just tried this-glued up a
butt section with Nyatex and pulled off the thread about16hours later and
rebound it to be heat tempered later. The questionis-Is this the best time to
pull the thread or should I do it eitherearlier or later after gluing? The thread
came off OK with a littleresistance, I'm just not sure how the tip will respond
to the samehandling. Anyone know what the optimal way to approach this in
theNyatex glued section is?Thanks for any info.Jon McAnulty

from tonkin@xtn.net Mon Mar 13 19:32:37 2000

Subject: Watauga River Tragedy

Please excuse the non rod message here but, I thought as fisherman,y'all
might want to know about this recent tragedy that has befallen theWatauga
River here in East Tennessee.On Feb. 25th a fire at the North American
Rayon Plant in Elizabethton,TN has allegedly contributed to a massive fishkill
on the greattailwater known as the Watuga River! It is estimated that
34,000 troutwere killed as a result of the fire. A Tennessee Wildlife
ResourcesAgency trout biologist as stated that "The Watauga River below
the NARplant is somewhere between completely dead and almost dead."It is
tragic that such a great river has been delivered such a knock outpunch!-- ---
--------------------------------------------------Click here for Free
Video!!http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/

from cattanac@wmis.net Mon Mar 13 22:49:40 2000

mail4.wmis.net (8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP idXAA28958 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000
23:49:37

Subject: Re: Unbinding the bound (Nyatex and thread removal)

The History -well I suspect that I am the one that can take the blame for the
Nyatexglue - I saw it originally used to glue the flocking in the window rails
forthe auto industry - My good friend used it in his plastic plant. the
processis a continuous run situation - 
from the plastics extruder the warmplasticis sprayed on the track and then
the flocking is applied and stood on endwith a High voltage DC field and then
the glue is dried in a 75 foot lighttunnel that is about 325 degrees. The glue
will stay uncured for an 8 hourshift in the mixing pot but is complete dried at
the end of the lighttunnel. I thought it would be worth a try for rods - that
was some 15yearsago.The down fall of using the glue is that you must think
throw away withevery thing it comes in comtact with - or most everything -
and for yearsIwould leave the original binding thread in place when the glue
was heatset.Believe me it was not a fun job filing the thread 
from delicate tipsections. Then a couple of years ago Al Medved hinted that
he didn't havethat problem - and when I quizzed him further - he said he was
completelyremoving the binding thread before the thermal setting. But he
allowed afull 24 hours of air drying before he thermal set the rod.Well - I
gave it a try during a rod making clas one time - but onlyallowed the rod
section to air dry for 12 hours before removing thebindingthread - NOT a
pretty story - so a compromise was devised - at the end of16hours air the
original binding thread was removed and fresh threadapplied.After the
sections were heat treated the fresh thread zipped right off andsurface
cleaning was a snap copmpared to before - So if there is thanks tobe handed
out here - it should go to Al -And another little trick which isn't directly
related but close is theuse of a Bic lighter to retouch flamed areas that get
too light. The flameof the lighter isn't used to reflame the surface - but
instead the flamed isdampened with the rod section to cause it to deposit
soot on the surfacewhich can be spread with the fing to blend it into the tone
that is desired.To cause the flame to damped - place the surface of the rod
section intotheflame about half way up the flame - it will stop the plune
effect of theflame 
from drawing oxygen for combustion and leaves a sooty deposit.

from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 13 23:16:25 2000

Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:16:18 -0800

Subject: Re: Unbinding the bound (Nyatex and thread removal)

Thanks Wayne.  I guess I didn't remember who first mentionedremovingthe
string then rebinding before heat setting.  I should have suspected you.

Harry

Wayne Cattanach wrote:

The History -well I suspect that I am the one that can take the blame for
theNyatexglue - I saw it originally used to glue the flocking in the window
railsforthe auto industry - My good friend used it in his plastic plant.
theprocessis a continuous run situation - 
from the plastics extruder the warmplasticis sprayed on the track and then
the flocking is applied and stood on endwith a High voltage DC field and then
the glue is dried in a 75 foot lighttunnel that is about 325 degrees. The glue
will stay uncured for an 8hourshift in the mixing pot but is complete dried at
the end of the lighttunnel. I thought it would be worth a try for rods - that
was some 15yearsago.The down fall of using the glue is that you must think
throw awaywithevery thing it comes in comtact with - or most everything -
and foryears Iwould leave the original binding thread in place when the glue
was heatset.Believe me it was not a fun job filing the thread 
from delicate tipsections. Then a couple of years ago Al Medved hinted that
he didn't havethat problem - and when I quizzed him further - he said he
wascompletelyremoving the binding thread before the thermal setting. But
he allowed afull 24 hours of air drying before he thermal set the rod.Well - I
gave it a try during a rod making clas one time - but onlyallowed the rod
section to air dry for 12 hours before removing thebindingthread - NOT a
pretty story - so a compromise was devised - at the endof 16hours air the
original binding thread was removed and fresh threadapplied.After the
sections were heat treated the fresh thread zipped right offandsurface
cleaning was a snap copmpared to before - So if there is thankstobe handed
out here - it should go to Al -And another little trick which isn't directly
related but close is theuse of a Bic lighter to retouch flamed areas that get
too light. The flameof the lighter isn't used to reflame the surface - but
instead the flamedisdampened with the rod section to cause it to deposit
soot on the surfacewhich can be spread with the fing to blend it into the tone
that isdesired.To cause the flame to damped - place the surface of the rod
section intotheflame about half way up the flame - it will stop the plune
effect of theflame 
from drawing oxygen for combustion and leaves a sooty deposit.

--Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/

from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Mar 14 05:14:21 2000

0000

(204.186.33.18)

Subject: Re: 4' 4" banty rod

Bradley Love wrote:

Hello guy,Should I put a #8 stripping guide on a 4'4" 4 wt. rod(which
shouldthrow 5 wt. do to .003 oversize) on this rod, or should I use a
largesnake guide as the Hardy Banty's had?  This is not a rod of beauty
asthis is my first rod that will be finished and will more than likelybe used for
"perch jerkin" over the next few months.  Also would a 5"long handle be about
right?  Any smaller and my hand will not fit onthe grip.

TIABradIf it will throw a #5 I would put a #8  stripper preferrably carbide ora
chrome plated casting guide. Also I believe the old attage "little rodlittle
grip". 41/2" grip will look much better than a 5". It may feelsmall at first but
you will get used to it. I have some old orvis rodsthat have 4" grips. Marty

from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Tue Mar 14 05:57:51 2000

(HELO localhost)

Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:56:06 +0100

munin.funn.no(Data Fellows SMTPRS 2.04) with ESMTP id;Tue, 14 Mar 2000
12:57:28 +0100

Subject: Unwanted moisture

To all....

I have a un varnished blank, that have been in my workshop for a coupleof
months.Today I had a look at it, and when I bend the rod, its staying
bend`ed.Is this because the bamboo has taken  moisture 
from the environment?

Is it possible to put it in the heater again, and get rid of theunwanted
moisture? The rod has been glued with PU, it can take about100*C without
any problem. Or is the rod only suitable for a blackboardpointer.......

TIAdanny

from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Mar 14 07:20:52 2000

Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8)with SMTP id 
forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:16:57

Subject: RE: Unwanted moisture

If I recall, in recent discussions about finishing rods, a few list memberscame
to the conclusion that the type of finish or whether the rod isfinished at all
doesn't make any difference to its ability to excludemoisture. And yet we
continue to hear stories such as this one, where thecane has obviously
become  full of humidity. How do we explain this?

Richard

-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 7:06 AM

Subject: Unwanted moisture

To all....

I have a un varnished blank, that have been in my workshop

of months.Today I had a look at it, and when I bend the rod, itsstaying
bend`ed.Is this because the bamboo has taken  moisture 
from the environment?

Is it possible to put it in the heater again, and get rid of theunwanted
moisture? The rod has been glued with PU, it can take about100*C without
any problem. Or is the rod only suitable for ablackboardpointer.......

TIAdanny

from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Tue Mar 14 07:39:51 2000

(HELO localhost)

Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:38:19 +0100

munin.funn.no(Data Fellows SMTPRS 2.04) with ESMTP id;Tue, 14 Mar 2000
14:39:44 +0100

"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Unwanted moisture

No question about it, this got to affect the cane. The blank had crisp
actionwhen i put it away.My workshop is constant heated to 20-24*C, its in
my basement though,but itsdry like the rest of my house.

regardsdanny

Richard Nantel wrote:

If I recall, in recent discussions about finishing rods, a few listmemberscame
to the conclusion that the type of finish or whether the rod isfinished at all
doesn't make any difference to its ability to excludemoisture. And yet we
continue to hear stories such as this one, wherethecane has obviously
become  full of humidity. How do we explain this?

Richard

-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 7:06 AM

Subject: Unwanted moisture

To all....

I have a un varnished blank, that have been in my workshop

of months.Today I had a look at it, and when I bend the rod, itsstaying
bend`ed.Is this because the bamboo has taken  moisture 
from the environment?

Is it possible to put it in the heater again, and get rid of theunwanted
moisture? The rod has been glued with PU, it can take about100*C without
any problem. Or is the rod only suitable for ablackboardpointer.......

TIAdanny

from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Mar 14 07:51:12 2000

Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8)with SMTP id 
forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:41:00

Subject: RE: Unwanted moisture

rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu

Frankly, Danny, I suspect finish matters a lot which is why I nowimpregnate
my rods.

Richard

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 8:49 AM

Subject: Re: Unwanted moisture

No question about it, this got to affect the cane. The blankhad crisp
actionwhen i put it away.My workshop is constant heated to 20-24*C, its in
my basementthough, but itsdry like the rest of my house.

regardsdanny

Richard Nantel wrote:

If I recall, in recent discussions about finishing rods, afew list memberscame
to the conclusion that the type of finish or whether the rod isfinished at all
doesn't make any difference to its abilityto excludemoisture. And yet we
continue to hear stories such as thisone, where thecane has obviously
become  full of humidity. How do we explain this?

Richard

-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu

TwangSent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 7:06 AM

Subject: Unwanted moisture

To all....

I have a un varnished blank, that have been in my workshop

of months.Today I had a look at it, and when I bend the rod, itsstaying
bend`ed.Is this because the bamboo has taken  moisture 
from theenvironment?

Is it possible to put it in the heater again, and get rid of theunwanted
moisture? The rod has been glued with PU, it cantake about100*C without
any problem. Or is the rod only suitable for ablackboardpointer.......

TIAdanny

from mschaffer@mindspring.com Tue Mar 14 08:18:26 2000

Subject: Explaination of stress curves wanted

boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF8D95.C2B8D5C0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF8D95.C2B8D5C0

Guys,Does anyone know of a site where I could read a good explaination of
=stress curves that is written for the non-engineer?

Thanks,

Mike

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF8D95.C2B8D5C0

Guys,Does anyone know of a site where I =

non-engineer?

Thanks,

Mike

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF8D95.C2B8D5C0--

from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Mar 14 08:20:38 2000

Subject: Re: RE: Unwanted moisture

rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu

In a message dated 3/14/0 1:26:09 PM, richard.nantel@videotron.cawrites:

Richard - I think you may have misunderstood what people were saying. No
finish on a rod would be a disaster. It would allow the cane to easily exchange
moisture with the air, and in the typical temperate zone climate where most
of us live, you would have a big humidity spike in the summer,and a drying
effect in the heated indoor air of winter. No finish will stop the moisture
exchange, but any reasonable one will slow the process enough to eliminate
the seasonal spikes and give you a moisture content reasonably close to the
average for your climate. The good news for Danny is that moisture is not
fatal, and if he puts the rod in a drying cabinet, he is back in business. I
suspect his basement is the culprit. My own rods are always stored in a
heated space in winter, and air conditioned in summer.To give you an idea of
how much moisture can be reabsorbed and thendriven off, I once
straightened flamed strips by the Bokstrom soaking method.The strips
became so pliable, I believe I could have tied them in a knot. Amonth later I
glued up the rod, never having done anything special to dry the strips. The
rod is an ultra crisp caster, that has never taken a set.Another thought for
Danny. If your basement is indeed dry, you may nothave enough heat
treatment into the strips. If that is the case, even areasonable moisture
content may be enough to allow the rod to take a set. I wouldstill build the
rod. A couple of my early rods are probably in that category, but still fish
well

from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Tue Mar 14 08:37:43 2000

(HELO localhost)

Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:36:01 +0100

munin.funn.no(Data Fellows SMTPRS 2.04) with ESMTP id;Tue, 14 Mar 2000
15:37:18 +0100

"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Unwanted moisture

Tom,

The cane was heat treated to a medium brown color, airflow oven 180*C

minutes, and the flamed to get the dark brown stripes. So I think it
wastreatedall right, but maybe the environment is more humid than I want to
think......

danny

TSmithwick@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 3/14/0 1:26:09 PM, richard.nantel@videotron.cawrites:

Richard - I think you may have misunderstood what people were
saying.Nofinish on a rod would be a disaster. It would allow the cane to
easilyexchange moisture with the air, and in the typical temperate
zoneclimatewhere most of us live, you would have a big humidity spike in
thesummer, anda drying effect in the heated indoor air of winter. No finish
will stop themoisture exchange, but any reasonable one will slow the process
enoughtoeliminate the seasonal spikes and give you a moisture
contentreasonablyclose to the average for your climate. The good news for
Danny is thatmoisture is not fatal, and if he puts the rod in a drying cabinet,
he isbackin business. I suspect his basement is the culprit. My own rods
arealwaysstored in a heated space in winter, and air conditioned in
summer.To give you an idea of how much moisture can be reabsorbed and
thendrivenoff, I once straightened flamed strips by the Bokstrom soaking
method.Thestrips became so pliable, I believe I could have tied them in a knot.
Amonthlater I glued up the rod, never having done anything special to dry
thestrips. The rod is an ultra crisp caster, that has never taken a
set.Another thought for Danny. If your basement is indeed dry, you may
nothaveenough heat treatment into the strips. If that is the case, even
areasonablemoisture content may be enough to allow the rod to take a set. I
wouldstillbuild the rod. A couple of my early rods are probably in that
category, butstill fish well

from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Mar 14 09:07:05 2000

"'danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no '","'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu '"
Subject: RE: Unwanted moisture

Richard -- 

How do you know the problem is just moisture? If that were the
case,everyrod with tung oil finish (I'd say all rods, but I think most agree that
thiswould be true for tung-oiled rods) should exhibit the same behavior
inmoistenvironments -- which they do not. Neither do all unvarnished blanks
thatsit around a while, even in rainy weather here in Missouri -- I can attestto
that. Moisture might be a factor (for example, if the rod is notadequately
heat treated) but there are obviously other factors andwaterproof varnish is
apparently not a decisive one. I'm not saying I KNOWthe explanation -- but not
knowing is where we're at. It's better to realizethat than to hold onto
explanations that clearly don't explain what we see.

I guess I should mention why I care about this. It think it's excellent todo
something because it's traditional and feels/looks right -- and thatshould be
enough. But when a technical explanation is added to apreferenceof that
sort, the implication is that those failing to use the advocatedmethod are
poorer craftspeople. On technical (rather than aesthetic orhistoric) matters
I feel it's better to be clear about what we know andwhatwe don't. There's a
lot we don't.

Thanks for the therapy, I feel better now....

Barry

-----Original Message-----

Subject: RE: Unwanted moisture

If I recall, in recent discussions about finishing rods, a few listmemberscame
to the conclusion that the type of finish or whether the rod isfinished at all
doesn't make any difference to its ability to excludemoisture. And yet we
continue to hear stories such as this one, wherethecane has obviously
become  full of humidity. How do we explain this?

Richard

-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 7:06 AM

Subject: Unwanted moisture

To all....

I have a un varnished blank, that have been in my workshop

of months.Today I had a look at it, and when I bend the rod, itsstaying
bend`ed.Is this because the bamboo has taken  moisture 
from the environment?

Is it possible to put it in the heater again, and get rid of theunwanted
moisture? The rod has been glued with PU, it can take about100*C without
any problem. Or is the rod only suitable for ablackboardpointer.......

TIAdanny

from FlyfishT@aol.com Tue Mar 14 09:07:18 2000

Subject: Re:  Re: Unwanted moisture

Danny,

I had this problem with my third rod, I believe anyway. I was using URAC glue. I
just stripped the varnish and reheated at 375F. I had no problemwith glue
failure.TOM

from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Mar 14 09:23:52 2000

Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:23:43 -0800

Subject: Re: Explaination of stress curves wanted

boundary="------------B389A82789117DC6C59D5A32"

--------------B389A82789117DC6C59D5A32

michael wrote:

Guys,Does anyone know of a site where I could read a good explainationof
stress curves that is written for the non-engineer? Thanks,

Mike,The following explanation was written by Darryl Hayashida and postedto
the list a few years ago.  It has helped me and many others.  I'msure Darryl
won't mind me re-posting it to the list.

Harry----------------In it's most basic use a stress curve shows you how
closea split cane rod is to breaking with the weight and lengthof line you
specified. Garrison believed 200,000 ouncesper square inch was a good, safe
upper level. In realityyou can go up to 220,000 or 230,000 without any
problems.Garrison himself went up to 220,000 on his lighter rods.Garrison
believed that below the 140,000 point the bamboostopped flexing.

As you get deeper into stress curves you can begin to pick out
certaincharacteristics that tell you what kind of action the rod has, or
willhaveif it hasn't been made yet. A Garrison rod, which I consider to be
slow,

has a well rounded "hump" near the tip and a fairly slow drop off as itgoes
towards the handle. Let's see if I can do this with ASCII art.

||             *  *|          *           *     *|         *                          *     *|        *                                         
*      *|       *                                                            **|      *|     *|    *|   *| 
*_*______________________________________________

The rod that I'm always raving about, the Cattanach 7' 0"4 wt, I consider to
be fairly fast. It has a stress curve like this:

||             *|          *     *|         *          *|        *                 *|       *                      
*|      *                                *                         *|     *                                       
*     *     ***     *|    *|   *| 
*_*______________________________________________

The blip near the handle is the Cattanach hinge, and it greatlyenhances roll
casting. Don't forget to  put it in. I did and the rodI made was a terrible roll
caster. It isn't as necessary on longerrods, but on shorter rods it's definitely
needed.

A Paul Young Para 15, what is described as a parabolic actionlooks like this:

||             *  *                             *  *|          *         *                       *        *|        
*             *                 *            *|        *                  *           *                *|      
*                        *  *                       *|      *|     *|    *|   *| 
*_*______________________________________________

Looking at this rod, and never having cast one, I would guessthat it would feel
fairly slow, due to the enhanced bending nearthe handle, but able to throw a
lot of line, due to the stiff midsection. I would also guess that it could roll
cast really well.

There are as many variations of stress curves as there arerodmakers. This
covers the slow, fast and parabolic actions.

Sir Darryl

--------------B389A82789117DC6C59D5A32

michael wrote:Guys,Doesanyone know of a site where I could read a good
explaination of stress

Mike,

list.Harry----------------In it's most basic use a stress curve shows you how
closea split cane rod is to breaking with the weight and lengthof line you
specified. Garrison believed 200,000 ouncesper square inch was a good, safe
upper level. In realityyou can go up to 220,000 or 230,000 without any
problems.Garrison himself went up to 220,000 on his lighter rods.Garrison
believed that below the 140,000 point the bamboostopped flexing.As you get
deeper into stress curves you can beginto pick out certaincharacteristics
that tell you what kind of action the rod has, or willhaveif it hasn't been made
yet. A Garrison rod, which I consider to beslow,has a well rounded "hump"
near the tip and a fairly slow drop off asitgoes towards the handle. Let's see
if I can do this with ASCII art.|

*

_*______________________________________________

The rod that I'm always raving about, the Cattanach 7' 0"4 wt, I consider to
be fairly fast. It has a stress curve like this:|

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

_*______________________________________________

The blip near the handle is the Cattanach hinge, and it greatly

rodI made was a terrible roll caster. It isn't as necessary on longerrods, but
on shorter rods it's definitely needed.A Paul Young Para 15, what is
described as a parabolic actionlooks like this:|

*

*

*

_*______________________________________________

Looking at this rod, and never having cast one, I would guessthat it would feel
fairly slow, due to the enhanced bending nearthe handle, but able to throw a
lot of line, due to the stiff midsection. I would also guess that it could roll
cast really well.There are as many variations of stress curves as there
arerodmakers. This covers the slow, fast and parabolic actions.Sir Darryl

--------------B389A82789117DC6C59D5A32--

from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Mar 14 09:41:54 2000

Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:41:48 -0800

rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Addditional Alaska Trip information

Friends,A few weeks ago I asked for advice on an Alaska trip this
summer.Several of you, notably Jim McGrath and Dave Barron and others,
were ofmuch help.  Our plans have firmed up, and I need a little more
specifichelp.We arrive in Anchorage on July 3, and fly out the next day for
4days of fishing on the Talachulitna River.  There we expect to catchKings,
Rainbows, and Grayling.  We return to Anchorage on July 7, wherewe pick up
the third member of our party.We have rented an RV for the next seven
days and plan to makeour way down the Kenai Peninsula.  That's where I need
some advice.What fishing should we be sure to include in the Kenai leg of our
trip?We think we would like to catch fish other than Kings on this part ofthe
trip?  What towns should we visit?  Which River(s)? should we fish?Are there
areas that are closed to specific types of fishing during thattime?  What
species can we look for?  Should we hire guides, and if so,would you make
recommendations?  Are there specific campgrounds weshould stay in or
avoid?  And the list of questions goes on an on.To those of you on the
Rodmakers list, I apologize for the non-rodmaking specific tenor of this post. 
Having the collective wisdom ofthese lists available is priceless.  Thanks in
advance for all yourhelp.

Harry Boyd

--Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/

from cmj@post11.tele.dk Tue Mar 14 10:44:29 2000

(InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP

+0100

Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Georg__Maurer=B4s_e-mail_address?=

Anyone have an e-mail address for Georg Maurer?Please respond off-line

George, if You are there, please write me.

Carsten Jorgensen

cmj@post11.tele.dk 

from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Mar 14 11:08:15 2000

Subject: Fwd: Unbinding the bound (Nyatex and thread removal)

boundary="part1_6e.1531f4d.25ffcbdc_boundary"

--part1_6e.1531f4d.25ffcbdc_boundary

In a message dated 3/13/00 2:48:34 PM Central Standard Time,
fbcwin@3g.quik.com writes:

Harry:  Nope, wasn't me.  As far as I knew, Wayne originated the idea. Those
Nyatex fumes getting to you?  :>)

Best,

Richard

--part1_6e.1531f4d.25ffcbdc_boundary

15:48:34 -0500

rly-za05.mx.aol.com (v69.17) with ESMTP; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:48:14-0500

Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:47:19 -0800

Subject: Re: Unbinding the bound (Nyatex and thread removal)

mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu wrote:

I'm just not sure how the tip will respond to the samehandling. Anyone know
what the optimal way to approach this in theNyatex glued section is?Thanks
for any info.Jon McAnulty

Jon,I think Richard Tyree made the original post, and I may have followedup
on it.  If the times you tried worked, then stick with them.  As soon as Ibind
the blank, I wash it down with white vinegar.  Doing so removes about80%of
the excess glue.  The next day (8-16 hours) I remove the originalbindingcord,
and carefully wash down the bare blank with vinegar again. 
Thissecondwashing removes almost all the remaining excess glue.  I then re-
bind, andheatset the glue.I don't know that this is the "optimal way to
approach this" as youwrote, but it is a good way.  Be careful with the glued
blank during thesecondwashing and binding, and you should be okay.

Harry--Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/

--part1_6e.1531f4d.25ffcbdc_boundary--

from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Tue Mar 14 11:38:21 2000

Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:35:50 -0600

R8.30.00.7)

Subject: Sean Maran's splitting method

--simple boundary

A while back Richard Nantel posted a method of splitting that Sean Maranhad
showed him. Well, I finally used up the shards, splinters, wedges andwhatnot
that were the result of my first splitting attempts and needed to split anew
culm. I used Sean's technique and the results were an incredibleimprovement
over using the knife freehand. After perfectly splitting the first quarterculm 

marks on every node at 0.20 inch intervals around the circumference of the
culm(tip section culm). I was able to hit almost every pencil mark dead-on
with the advancing split. It was like shooting targets. In some pieces as I split
Iendedup with 3 strips so I could not split it in half as described. However,
itwas easy if I held the thicker strip with my other fingers and extended
theindex finger further down on the thick strip to gain some leverage. This
allowedme tobend both strips (the thick and thin one) to the same amount of
deflectioneven though the thick strip was much stiffer and still drive the
split to eithersideas needed.Anyway, I thought I'd post this experience and
say thanks, splitting is no longer the stuff of nightmares for me. ;-)Jon 

--simple boundary

15:48:34 -0500

rly-za05.mx.aol.com (v69.17) with ESMTP; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:48:14-0500

Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:47:19 -0800

Subject: Re: Unbinding the bound (Nyatex and thread removal)

mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu wrote:

I'm just not sure how the tip will respond to the samehandling. Anyone know
what the optimal way to approach this in theNyatex glued section is?Thanks
for any info.Jon McAnulty

Jon,I think Richard Tyree made the original post, and I may have followedup
on it.  If the times you tried worked, then stick with them.  As soon as Ibind
the blank, I wash it down with white vinegar.  Doing so removes about80%of
the excess glue.  The next day (8-16 hours) I remove the originalbindingcord,
and carefully wash down the bare blank with vinegar again. 
Thissecondwashing removes almost all the remaining excess glue.  I then re-
bind, andheatset the glue.I don't know that this is the "optimal way to
approach this" as youwrote, but it is a good way.  Be careful with the glued
blank during thesecondwashing and binding, and you should be okay.

Harry--Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/

--simple boundary--

from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Tue Mar 14 13:15:08 2000

Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:12:36 -0600

R8.30.00.7)

Subject: Re[2]: Unbinding the bound (Nyatex and thread removal) 

Harry,Just to be sure I understand you- are you saying you are able to take
off the excess Nyatex with the vinegar or are you using some other
adhesive?Cheers.Jon

from Oozakgpt@aol.com Tue Mar 14 14:33:49 2000

Subject: Where to find shoulder bolts

Having a hard time finding shoulder bolts for my planing forms.Cananybody
help?

from caneman@clnk.com Tue Mar 14 14:46:38 2000

(Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with
SMTP id com; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:43:23 -0600

Subject: Re: Where to find shoulder bolts

Most hardware stores have them.  If noone in your area carries them
thentryEnco  at 1-800-USE-ENCO.  I got a sales flyer 
from them in the mail todaythat has a fairly wide selection of shoulder bolts
in it.  On the same pagethey have the precision ground dowel pins (almost like
a form builderspage*S*)Later,Bob-----Original Message-----

Subject: Where to find shoulder bolts

Having a hard time finding shoulder bolts for my planing
forms.Cananybodyhelp?

from rsgould@cmc.net Tue Mar 14 14:47:04 2000

Subject: Re: Unwanted moisture

Hi Danny,After reading your posting I feel obligated to tell this true story.
Just afew years ago a friend of mine went on a back packing trip with his
familyin the wilds of British Columbia armed with a bamboo fly rod I had
madeforhim in 1980. It was an 8ft x 2pc x 6wt glued up with Urac 185
andfinishedwith Varmor R-10 varnish. During the hike into the lake where
they wouldcamp for 3 days the rod slipped out of it's rod case unbeknownst
to themandfell into a small stream they had forded. When they hiked out 3
days laterthey found the rod and brought it to me to "fix" since it had been
laying inthe water all that time. You talk about absorbing water, this rod sure
hadits opportunity. What I did with the rod was to put it in my rod dryer
forseveral days at 100F and then polished up the cork, polished up the
varnisha bit and recoated it with one coat of Varmor R-10. The rod was fine.
Itretained it's action, remained straight and is still in service today.I'm not
sure this will help you solve the dilemma you have with your rodblank but it
does point out to me the moisture resisting qualities of a goodvarnish.Ray----
- Original Message -----

Subject: Unwanted moisture

To all....

I have a un varnished blank, that have been in my workshop for a coupleof
months.Today I had a look at it, and when I bend the rod, its staying
bend`ed.Is this because the bamboo has taken  moisture 
from the environment?

Is it possible to put it in the heater again, and get rid of theunwanted
moisture? The rod has been glued with PU, it can take about100*C without
any problem. Or is the rod only suitable for a blackboardpointer.......

TIAdanny

from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Mar 14 15:12:03 2000

13:14:45 PST

Subject: Humidity vs. Water

Water in solid form, ice, wouldn't penetrate a bamboo rod finish, so iswater
in liquid form also less able to penetrate a good bamboo rod finish then water
in vapor form?  If this is true then it would help explain why wewant some
kind of finish on our rods to better protect them 
from liquid watereven if water in vapor form is able to eventually penetrate
to some particular level over time.

Chris

from dannyt@frisurf.no Tue Mar 14 16:17:08 2000

(MET)

Subject: Re: Unwanted moisture

Thanks folks for all Your help on this issue.

I put the rod in my airflow oven for 15 minutes, and its back in business.I'm
getting my varnish ready now:-)

danny ------>--------work 

from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Mar 14 16:25:53 2000

Subject: Re: Unwanted moisture

In a message dated 3/14/0 2:39:14 PM,
danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.nowrites:

That should be enough heat treatment. If the stuff was crisp and is nowlimp,
moisture must be the culprit. If you have access to an accurate scale,
carefully weigh the sections. Then go to a drying regimen, when you aredone
weigh the strips again. If they are lighter, the missing weight is water,and
you can figure out what percent moisture you drove out. I use a reloader's
grain scale for this purpose. You might also try weighing an extra strip after
you heat treat it, and then weigh it every week for a couple months.It is
interesting to watch the water return.

from rcurry@webryders.com Tue Mar 14 16:46:14 2000

mamabear.webryders.net(Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 593-
58620U1000L100S0V35)with ESMTP id net; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:49:30 -
0500

"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Unwanted moisture

Danny,I've seen this happen to glued sections that had been fine in a
workshop

years and were then set standing butt down on the concrete floor for
twomonths.They would hold any bend. Some careful drying and they were
crisp again.Methinks the cane wicks moisture 
from the concrete.Best regards,Reed

Danny Twang wrote:

Tom,

The cane was heat treated to a medium brown color, airflow oven 180*C

minutes, and the flamed to get the dark brown stripes. So I think it
wastreatedall right, but maybe the environment is more humid than I want
tothink......

danny

TSmithwick@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 3/14/0 1:26:09 PM, richard.nantel@videotron.cawrites:

Richard - I think you may have misunderstood what people were
saying.Nofinish on a rod would be a disaster. It would allow the cane to
easilyexchange moisture with the air, and in the typical temperate
zoneclimatewhere most of us live, you would have a big humidity spike in
thesummer, anda drying effect in the heated indoor air of winter. No finish
will stopthemoisture exchange, but any reasonable one will slow the
processenough toeliminate the seasonal spikes and give you a moisture
contentreasonablyclose to the average for your climate. The good news for
Danny is thatmoisture is not fatal, and if he puts the rod in a drying cabinet,
he isbackin business. I suspect his basement is the culprit. My own rods
arealwaysstored in a heated space in winter, and air conditioned in
summer.To give you an idea of how much moisture can be reabsorbed and
thendrivenoff, I once straightened flamed strips by the Bokstrom soaking
method.Thestrips became so pliable, I believe I could have tied them in a knot.
Amonthlater I glued up the rod, never having done anything special to dry
thestrips. The rod is an ultra crisp caster, that has never taken a
set.Another thought for Danny. If your basement is indeed dry, you may
nothaveenough heat treatment into the strips. If that is the case, even
areasonablemoisture content may be enough to allow the rod to take a set. I
wouldstillbuild the rod. A couple of my early rods are probably in that
category,butstill fish well

from jlintvet@erols.com Tue Mar 14 17:49:16 2000

([207.172.55.79] helo=compaq)

Subject: Re: W