will lie in a layeron top of the varnish to keep the oxygen out. At 10:13 PM 4/10/00, Onis Cogburn wrote:Since the jelling is due to reactionto the atmosphere, one way to =reducethe jelling is to remove theatmosphere. After I ordered my Epon =fromMiller-Stephenson, they sentme a box of other goodies. One was a =can ofAero-Duster; Tetrafluroethane but propane or butane lighter fluid =wouldprobably alsowork. I have been inverting the can to spray enough of =theliquid into myvarnish container, a half gallon glass jug. It has =stoppedthe jelling. Hopethis helps. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 09:45 PM 4/10/00 -0400, Ralph MacKenzie wrote:Boy - AMEN to *that*problem! My first spar, Pratt & Lambert R7, =got thicklike jello across thetop - maybe an inch thick or so, (and the =remainder inthe can as well). Ithinned it with paint thinner, and that seemed =to hold the littlebottles that I keep aside for wraps got jelled across the top,=including theone with thinner. Mixed about 50/50 with a different=manufacturer's spar(AceHardware) and some mineral spirits. The resultseemed to be = well andstaying liquid, but I had some other contamination problems with=little"grits" in my finish, so I filtered through a paper coffee filter. =After top inthe tube, *again*. I have now really laced it =with boththinner andmineral spirits. It's probably a little too thin, but =Ifigured Ican build up withmultiple coats easier than wrestle with the jelly =at thispoint. I have not had similar problems with my other tube that has =polyurethaneinit. Seemed to be a lot easier to work with, but if there's a magic = bullet ofsome kind to prevent the jelling, I'll be very interested, too, =sinceI'dlikethe option of either. TIA, here too. mac Ed Riddle wrote: I use a Drip Tube and have been recently been storing the Spar in=adiscarded (plastic?)gallon milk container. Prior to first use, a=couplemonths ago, I thinned it 10% with mineral spirits. Today, I found =thatithas thickened up and has some "globs" in it. I added more =mineralspiritsand filtered with a conical paper paint filter and that seemed to =workforthe moment. Any suggestions on how I might better preserve =unusedportionbased on what I'm doing now?Thanks in advance.Ed Some hobby shops carry nitrogen gas in spray cans. It is = put a dry layer of gas, on top of the model engine fuel, that remains in = plastic bottle. Te brand name of the producer is =Powermaster. GMA ----- Original Message ----- Bill =Hoy edriddle@mindspring.com Cc: Rodmakers Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 = PM VarnishI have also heard that the canned air that = cheaper than bloxigen and I would assume safer than = = jelling is due to reaction to the atmosphere, one way to = = AMEN = have not had similar problems with my other tube that has polyurethane= = filtered with a conical paper paint filter and that seemed to work = from dpfitch@collins.rockwell.com Tue Apr 11 09:42:58 2000 gatekeeper.collins.rockwell.com via smap (V4.2) 5-20-1999)) id 862568BE.0050C0C2 ;Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:42:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Need help fast This morning's list has allot of talk about fisheyes and gases topreventgelling of varnish. When I got my EPON, I also got the goody box ofothersupplies. After sanding the 3rd coat on a couple of blanks, I used oneoftheaerosols to blow sanding dust from around the guides/wraps. Next diphad lotsof fisheyes, mostlyin/around the guides/wraps. Sanded everything downagain,thoroughlywashed the blanks with premium paint thinner, used a tackcloth, anddippedagain. Fisheyes gone. Beautiful finish. Later, an "expert" told me that most aerosols contain some amountofsilicon- -trace amounts. With this in mind, I might not use theaerosolsthatcome with Epon (or others) as an "inert" barrier above myvarnish. DPF "PMG" on 04/11/2000 09:01:00 AM Please respond to pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Need help fast Tell your friend it a new and very expensive process and he's getting itforfree. Seriously, is this a new can of finish? did you thin it withsomethingdifferent,maybe accidently. Try using the finish on a scrap pieceand see if you getthesame results. was there any silcon used recently inyour shop or home. I suspect you are going to have to strip it and start with all new varnish,etc. Paul ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Need help fast Friends,I'm finishing out a rod for a friend, and need somehelp quickly. I'musing Pittsburgh Paints 77-5 polyurethanevarnish. I've now got five coats onthe entire rod. Thefinish is showing some real problems with "fish- eyes,"andI'm not sure what to do about it.Someone is sure to mention problemswith silicone,and I don't think that is the problem. The only way thatsiliconecould have been introduced is through the siliconcarbide sandpaper. I'm usingthe same finish, same types ofrags, and so on that I have used successfullyin the past.I wet-sanded the first two coats almost completelyaway with1000 grit sandpaper. The fisheyes first appearedafter the third coat. Iwet-sanded that coat very smoothwith 2000 grit. Even more fisheyes. Same thing after thefourth coat. Fisheyes are worse than ever.What I need from you great people is a solution.How do I get rid of the problem????? Harry--Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from bhoy@inmind.com Tue Apr 11 10:44:11 2000 0400 Subject: Varnish: sources & recommendations All this traffic about varnishes is very timely for me. I have been having adevil of a time finding a source for varmor or man 'o war spar. I used minwaxhelmsman thinned 20 percent for my first rod and it is not acceptable, toothick even with thinning and too plasticky looking. So I tried to find some varmor poly or spar varnish. Here's what I foundout. Pratt and Lambert is apparently not interested in selling their products. Ispent days finding a fairly local dealer, which included a library search of thethomas register and a half-dozen phone calls to cleveland, P&L's home base. Ifinally found the dealer list in the R&D(!) department. Customer serviceapparently does not exist at P&L. Called the dealer, and they won't order from them any more because P&L won't ship anything less than a case lotand won't take returns. I have not been able to find a dealer in thecommonwealth of virginia who will order from P&L. The dealer also told me that McCloskey doesn't make marine spar varnishanymore because of environmental regulations. He thought that no US companymakes marine spar any more. McCloskey recommends the regular spar. Thewarehouse has 11 half-pints of marine spar for $5.50 a pop. My questions: 1). Where do you folks get varmor? Is there a mailorder source foresotericfinishes out there? 2). Is there a readily available alternative to varmor with the samecharacteristics? 3). If not, should I go with spar varnish instead? Is regular spar acceptablesince I can't find marine spar? 4). I hope to build a drip tube system for finishing, but I've surmised thattraditional spar doesn't work as well as poly for this. Am I mistaken? 5). Would I be crazy to use tung oil? I know it's not supposed to be verywater proof, but I really like the look of tung finishes: very thin and theypolish to an elegant luster. Is there a spar or poly that has this same look? As an aside, I've found a source for clear pvc tubing from Mcmaster-Carr (do a clear pvc search) for drip tubes. They have manydifferent diameters from 1/2 inch to 2 inch (I think). What's the smallest diameter I can getaway with? Does anybody have the formula for determining how muchvarnishthe different diameters would require? Thanks in advance. I know there are a lot of questions, but this is vexing meno end. Bill Hoy from dickay@alltel.net Tue Apr 11 10:58:40 2000 KAA15017 Subject: Re: Preserving Spar Varnish Ed, Get rid of the plastic milk container also. Those containers =are notimpervious to air. That's one of the reasons that they put an =expirationdate on (Plastic) bottled water and other products bottled in =plastic. Any good contractors paint store should be able to sell you metal =paintcans in gallon and quart sizes. Then use some of the other =suggestionsprovided ( Bloxygen, Marbles, Inverting the can for storage, = I would be very careful with the Propane or Butane. Just remember =thatthese gasses are heavier than air and tend to puddle and are very=explosive. A low source of ignition will set them off ( Water Heater, =GasDryer (I've heard of Electric Dryers doing it also)). So be =carefull withthese and be sure to label the can "For Use in Well =Ventilated Areas(Outside?) Only."Dick Fuhrman Ed Riddle wrote: I use a Drip Tube and have been recently been storing the Spar in a=discarded (plastic?)gallon milk container. expiration date on (Plastic) bottled water and other products = plastic. Any good contractors paint store should be able to sell = suggestions provided ( Bloxygen, Marbles, Inverting the can for = Nitrogen.) that these gasses are heavier than air and tend to puddle and are = carefull with these and be sure to label the can "For Use in = Dick Fuhrman =container.< from steve@hamiltonrods.com Tue Apr 11 11:01:42 2000 Service Version 5.5.2448.0) Subject: Re: Varnish: sources & recommendations I had a similar experience. If enough folks complain to P&L, they'll listenIthink. I recommend everyone callto complain :) The number is 1-800-289-7728, I believe. Bill, I live in NC and finally found a dealer who was willing to order a caseofVarmor R10 even though I onlyneeded one gallon. Interestingly, I'll be in theWashington DC area nextweek. Specifically, I'll be in theHerndon area. Are youclose enough to Herndon that you could come pick upa can if I bring you one?Let meknow and I'll check to see if the dealer has any left. I really have liked R10 (heated in a drip or dip tube) so far. It driesfasterthan I thought it would and hasa nice luster. --Steve ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Varnish: sources & recommendations All this traffic about varnishes is very timely for me. I have been having adevil of a time finding a source for varmor or man 'o war spar. I used minwaxhelmsman thinned 20 percent for my first rod and it is not acceptable, toothick even with thinning and too plasticky looking. from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Apr 11 11:37:55 2000 Subject: Re: modified Smithwick In a message dated 4/11/0 1:39:46 PM, sniderja@email.uc.edu writes: Jerry - I think you will be fine with the 6 foot version. If you left the tip aloneit will stay a 5 weight, I think. BUT, I would not go much fartherthan this withthe taper. It was designed as a short rod, and I believe it to be a poor modelto be scaled up into something longer or heavier. from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Apr 11 11:55:52 2000 Subject: silicon vs silicone Guys - Not to be a nitpicker, but there seems to be some confusion. Silicon isa glasslike mineral ( element, actually) and won't hurt your finish. Silicone is awidely used lubricant that has an insidious way of showingup where you don'texpect it. from freaner@home.com Tue Apr 11 12:01:16 2000 Subject: Re: Varnish: sources & recommendations At 11:36 PM -0400 on 4/11/00, Bill Hoy wrote about Varnish: sources &recommendations As an aside, I've found a source for clear pvc tubing from Mcmaster-Carr (do a clear pvc search) for drip tubes. They have manydifferent diameters from 1/2 inch to 2 inch (I think). What's the smallest diameter I can getaway with? Does anybody have the formula for determining how muchvarnish the different diameters would require? The formula is Pi R squared H divided by 33.6 to convert inch measurementsto pints of stuff. Another way of expressing it is 3.14 * (inside diameter) * (inside diameter)/4 * height / 33.6 =pintsexample: 3.14 * 2 in. * 2 in. /4 * 48 in. / 33.6 = 4.5 pints[a 2 inch tube4 feet long holds 4.5 pints.] in metric measurements this same formula is 3.14 * (inside diameter in cm) * (inside diameter in cm)/4 * (height in cm)/1000 = liters Claude from DNHayashida@aol.com Tue Apr 11 14:49:01 2000 Subject: Re: silicon vs silicone Good point! But, the original poster that started thisthread seemed to beasking if the silicon carbide fromhis sandpaper was causing the fisheyes. It isas yousay - Silicon (no e on the end) even in abrasive formdoes not causefisheyes. Silicone (e on the end) does.To the original poster - Did you testcast the rod, orclean a flyline before you applied a coat of varnish?Mostflyline cleaners have silicone in them.Darryl Guys - Not to be a nitpicker, but there seems to be some confusion.Silicon isa glasslike mineral ( element, actually) and won't hurt your finish. Silicone is awidely used lubricant that has an insidious way of showingup where you don'texpect it. from bhoy@inmind.com Tue Apr 11 15:13:41 2000 Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:03:14 -0400 Subject: Re: silicon vs silicone Um, pardon me for ignorance, but what is a fisheye? I don't think I've everseen this phenomenon. Does it occur on poly or spar or both. I'm still tryingto decide what kind of finish I should use. Thanks,Bill Hoy At 03:48 PM 4/11/00, DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: Good point! But, the original poster that started thisthread seemed to beasking if the silicon carbide fromhis sandpaper was causing the fisheyes. It isas yousay - Silicon (no e on the end) even in abrasive formdoes not causefisheyes. Silicone (e on the end) does.To the original poster - Did you testcast the rod, orclean a flyline before you applied a coat of varnish?Mostflyline cleaners have silicone in them.Darryl Guys - Not to be a nitpicker, but there seems to be some confusion. Siliconisa glasslike mineral ( element, actually) and won't hurt your finish.Silicone is awidely used lubricant that has an insidious way of showing upwhere you don'texpect it. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Tue Apr 11 15:15:46 2000 NAA07956 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: silicon vs silicone what we found that caused the fish eyes in the varnish at the shop Iworkedat was the sterates (SP?) in theno load sand paper and we found that out from an article in fine woodworking. Once we quit using no load wehad no fisheye problems and we had tried everything else, fish eyeremover etc., andthis is the only thingthat eliminated them Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 Subject: Re: silicon vs silicone Good point! But, the original poster that started thisthread seemed to beasking if the silicon carbide fromhis sandpaper was causing the fisheyes. It isas yousay - Silicon (no e on the end) even in abrasive formdoes not causefisheyes. Silicone (e on the end) does.To the original poster - Did you testcast the rod, orclean a flyline before you applied a coat of varnish?Mostflyline cleaners have silicone in them.Darryl Guys - Not to be a nitpicker, but there seems to be some confusion.Silicon isa glasslike mineral ( element, actually) and won't hurt your finish. Silicone is awidely used lubricant that has an insidious way ofshowing up where you don'texpect it. from ejdrexler@hotmail.com Tue Apr 11 15:19:20 2000 Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:18:42 PDT Subject: Re: German Rodmakers Hey Stuart,go ahead, how can I help you? I'm a bavarian rodmaker based inSalzburg, Austria. Best E.J. Drexler Subject: German RodmakersDate: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:44:21 +0200 Are there any German rodmakers on the list? I need to get some help finding a few things here in Germany (Or Europeas awhole - perhaps some British rodmakers could help). Also has any body here tried the Tonkin Cane from Centre Cane CompanyinU.K ? I know that they are somehow connectedto Andy Royer and I waswondering if it is the same cane just shipped to theU.K for sale inEurope or is it a completely seperate setup? Thanks Stuart ______________________________________________________GetYour Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from rmoon@ida.net Tue Apr 11 16:27:44 2000 Subject: Re: silicon vs silicone Patrick, I have been using no load paper for at least 15 years. Neverhad afish eye problem. It may be that I used that paper only on rawcane, not onany varnish coat. I have liked it, because I can use alittle coarser grit forfaster sanding and still end up with a babybottom smooth finish. I have beenusing 280 grit. I know I heard aboutthe stearate problem, but never havinghad any trouble I disregarded it. But then I am the guy who never used Urac without a failure . I can'tfigure itout.Ralph from rmoon@ida.net Tue Apr 11 16:46:18 2000 0000 Subject: Re: silicon vs silicone You might be wise to examine your solvents. Many companys sellrecycledsolvents that may contain contaminents (silicone) from prior use. Alsofish eye retarders have been known as the trojan horsethat spreadsfisheyes. Ralph from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Apr 11 17:03:29 2000 Subject: Re: silicon vs silicone Darryl, Tom -- I think I'm the original poster. To answer Darryl's question - no, Ididn't testcast this rod. And to respond to Tom - yes, I was completelyignorant aboutthe differences between silicon and silicone.Still don't know what my varnishproblem is, but I've gotten LOTS ofhelpful suggestions. That's one thing thatmakes this list so helpful. Iappreciate every single suggestion, even thosethat I've already thoughtabout.Someone took a few minutes of their precioustime to try to help me. Andthat'ssomething to be grateful for. So thankseveryone for your help!! Harry DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: To the original poster - Did you test cast the rod, orclean a flyline before youapplied a coat of varnish?Most flyline cleaners have silicone in them.Darryl Guys - Not to be a nitpicker, but there seems to be some confusion.Siliconisa glasslike mineral ( element, actually) and won't hurt your finish.Silicone is awidely used lubricant that has an insidious way ofshowing upwhere you don'texpect it. from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Apr 11 17:09:09 2000 Subject: Re: silicon vs silicone Let me clarify this silica vs, silicone thing a bit further. I am not a =chemist,but these two elements are far apart in what they are. The = glass- like element, that is used for items from abrasives, to aluminum =alloys used in high performance engines, andother aircraft, auto, =etc.,parts. If fish eyes appear after sanding with sucha product, then =it's some other foreign element being introduced. Silicone is a type of lubricant, and the two have zero relationship in =thisapplication. It also doesn't mix with normal petroleum, and other =paintrelated products. GMA Patrick, I have been using no load paper for at least 15 years. =Neverhad afish eye problem. It may be that I used that paper only on rawcane, not onany varnish coat. I have liked it, because I can use alittle coarser grit forfaster sanding and still end up with a babybottom smooth finish. I have beenusing 280 grit. I know I heard =aboutthe stearate problem, but never havinghad any trouble I disregarded =it. But then I am the guy who never used Urac without a failure . I can'tfigure itout.Ralph Let me clarify this silica vs, silicone thing a bit = not a chemist, but these two elements are far apart in what they are. = silica, is a glass- like element, that is used for items from abrasives,= aluminum alloys used in high performance engines, and other aircraft, = etc.,parts. If fish eyes appear after sanding with such a product, then = some other foreign element being introduced. Silicone is a type of lubricant, and the two have zero = in this application. It also doesn't mix with normal petroleum, and = related products. GMA ----- Original Message ----- Ralph W =Moon April 11, 2000 = AMSubject: Re: silicon vs =silicone any trouble I disregarded it.But then I am the guy who never = out.Ralph from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Apr 11 17:26:12 2000 15:28:53 PDT Subject: Re: silicon vs. silicone The American Heritage Dictionary includes in its definition of silicone,that itis an ingredient in, among other things, adhesives, protective coatings, andpaints. You don't suppose..............it's a marketing conspiracy. They put itin our adhesives and paints and then we keep buying more andmore new cansof finish to overcome the problem. I guess that isn't very funny........sorry. Chris from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Apr 11 17:37:21 2000 Subject: Re: silicon vs. silicone There are so many modifications to many elements, to make them=compatible with other medias, there's no accounting for the numbers.The=main thing is that silicone is far different form the silica's used for=abrasives, etc.. GMA The American Heritage Dictionary includes in its definition of = it is an ingredient in, among other things, adhesives, protective = and paints. You don't suppose..............it's a marketing = They put it in our adhesives and paints and then we keep buying more = new cans of finish to overcome the problem. I guess that isn't very funny........sorry. Chris There are so many modifications to many elements, tomake = compatible with other medias, there's no accounting for the numbers. The= thing is that silicone is far different form the silica's used for = etc.. GMA ----- Original Message ----- MCDOWELL = PMSubject: Re: silicon vs. =siliconeThe American Heritage Dictionary includesin its = adhesives and paints and then we keep buying more and more new = funny........sorry.Chris from rmoon@ida.net Tue Apr 11 18:05:43 2000 0000 DNHayashida@aol.comSubject: Re: silicon vs silicone I thought that we had determined that it was the stearates used inthemanufacture of no load sandpaper that caused the fish eyes. . Silicaasyou pointed out is relatively inert, and I am sure no one wasthinking that itwas silica that was causing the fish eyes.Ralph from cadams46@juno.com Tue Apr 11 18:16:32 2000 19:15:58 EDT Subject: vacation Sorry to bother the list with this but my eyes went blurry lookingthrough allthe help commands. Would someone please tell me what thecommand forgoing off the list temporally and then what the commandwillbe for gettingback on the list afterwards. Thank-youSincerely,C.R. Adams from channer1@rmi.net Tue Apr 11 18:26:09 2000 Subject: Re: Varnish: sources & recommendations Bill;Regular ol' Man-O-War works just fine, and should be no problem in adriptype set-up(I use a dip tube). Just get the lid on the can quickand either keepthe level to the top, or turn the can over for storageas Bret suggested. Ican't help you with a source for Varmor, out herein Durango I considermyself lucky to get Man-O-War, both the lumberyards here and 1 of the 3paint stores and the hardware store all carryit. If you are going to go with anoil finish, I would reccommendTrue-Oil or an oil-varnish like Formby's and keepit waxed, oils aren'tvery good at stopping water vapor. I have had good luckon furniturewith Minwax Antique Oil Finish, but haven't tried it on a rod, I kindoflike high gloss varnish myself. With any finish, whether it is varnishorpaint, the higher the gloss, the better the weather protection.John Bill Hoy wrote: All this traffic about varnishes is very timely for me. I have been havingadevil of a time finding a source for varmor or man 'o war spar. I usedminwaxhelmsman thinned 20 percent for my first rod and it is notacceptable, toothick even with thinning and too plasticky looking. So I tried to find some varmor poly or spar varnish. Here's what I foundout. Pratt and Lambert is apparently not interested in selling theirproducts.Ispent days finding a fairly local dealer, which included a librarysearchof the thomas register and a half-dozen phone calls to cleveland,P&L'shome base. I finally found the dealer list in the R&D(!)department.Customer service apparently does not exist at P&L. Called thedealer, andthey won't order from them any more because P&L won't ship anythinglessthan a case lot andwon't take returns. I have not been able to find adealer in the commonwealthof virginia who will order from P&L. The dealer also told me that McCloskey doesn't make marine sparvarnishanymore because of environmental regulations. He thought that noUScompanymakes marine spar any more. McCloskey recommends the regularspar.Thewarehouse has 11 half-pints of marine spar for $5.50 a pop. My questions: 1). Where do you folks get varmor? Is there a mailorder sourceforesotericfinishes out there? 2). Is there a readily available alternative to varmor with thesamecharacteristics? 3). If not, should I go with spar varnish instead? Is regular sparacceptablesince I can't find marine spar? 4). I hope to build a drip tube system for finishing, but I've surmisedthattraditional spar doesn't work as well as poly for this. Am Imistaken? 5). Would I be crazy to use tung oil? I know it's not supposed to be verywaterproof, but I really like the look of tung finishes: very thin andthey polish to anelegant luster. Is there a spar or poly that has thissame look? As an aside, I've found a source for clear pvc tubing from Mcmaster-Carr(do a clear pvc search) for drip tubes. They have manydifferentdiameters from 1/2 inch to 2 inch (I think). What's the smallest diameter I can getawaywith? Does anybody have the formula for determining how muchvarnishthedifferent diameters would require? Thanks in advance. I know there are a lot of questions, but this is vexingmeno end. Bill Hoy from Paradise52@aol.com Tue Apr 11 18:29:23 2000 Subject: Re: RE: Preserving Spar Varnish I'm new here, but I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents! A woodworking teacher Iused to work with told me to breath into a can of paint prior to sealing it up. Isuppose you could give it a try.Mark from rsgould@cmc.net Tue Apr 11 18:36:10 2000 Subject: Re: Varnish: sources & recommendations Hi Bill and others,Here's some info on where to get Pratt and Lambert R- 10gloss varnish. Tobecertain, I just finished talking to them on the telephone.This varnish maybe ordered from: Daly's Home Decorating Center, 3525Stoneway North,Seattle, WA 98103, telephone (206) 633-4200, Fax no.(206) 632-2565.Theirweb site is under construction. The varnish can bebought in gallons or inquarts. The price is about $53/ gal or $18/qt and theycharge $7.50 forshipping a quart. They have a little in stock now, will get it from thePratt and Lambert distribution center in Las Vegas. Also asadditional infothey have the R-11 satin varmor in stock. It's a great varnishand I highlyrecommend it.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Varnish: sources & recommendations All this traffic about varnishes is very timely for me. I have been havingadevil of a time finding a source for varmor or man 'o war spar. I usedminwaxhelmsman thinned 20 percent for my first rod and it is notacceptable, toothick even with thinning and too plasticky looking. So I tried to find some varmor poly or spar varnish. Here's what I foundout. Pratt and Lambert is apparently not interested in selling theirproducts.Ispent days finding a fairly local dealer, which included a librarysearchof the thomas register and a half-dozen phone calls to cleveland,P&L'shome base. I finally found the dealer list in the R&D(!)department.Customer service apparently does not exist at P&L. Called thedealer, andthey won't order from them any more because P&L won't ship anythinglessthan a case lot andwon't take returns. I have not been able to find adealer in the commonwealthof virginia who will order from P&L. The dealer also told me that McCloskey doesn't make marine sparvarnishanymore because of environmental regulations. He thought that noUScompanymakes marine spar any more. McCloskey recommends the regularspar.Thewarehouse has 11 half-pints of marine spar for $5.50 a pop. My questions: 1). Where do you folks get varmor? Is there a mailorder sourceforesotericfinishes out there? 2). Is there a readily available alternative to varmor with thesamecharacteristics? 3). If not, should I go with spar varnish instead? Is regular sparacceptablesince I can't find marine spar? 4). I hope to build a drip tube system for finishing, but I've surmisedthattraditional spar doesn't work as well as poly for this. Am Imistaken? 5). Would I be crazy to use tung oil? I know it's not supposed to be verywaterproof, but I really like the look of tung finishes: very thin andthey polish to anelegant luster. Is there a spar or poly that has thissame look? As an aside, I've found a source for clear pvc tubing from Mcmaster-Carr(do a clear pvc search) for drip tubes. They have manydifferentdiameters from 1/2 inch to 2 inch (I think). What's the smallest diameter I can getawaywith? Does anybody have the formula for determining how muchvarnishthedifferent diameters would require? Thanks in advance. I know there are a lot of questions, but this is vexingmeno end. Bill Hoy from tfinger@services.state.mo.us Tue Apr 11 18:38:54 2000 Subject: Re: silicon vs. silicone This is certainly more than anyone needs to know to build rods, but Silicon (chemical symbol Si) is an element. It is one of the most abundantelements on earth, but never occurs in nature without being chemicallycombined with something. Silica is silicon dioxide (SiO2), a very abundant compound found as quartz,sand, opal, etc. Most glass is primarily this stuff. Silicon carbide is anothercompound that is a very hard abrasive. Silicones are a wide variety of polymers made of chains of Si atoms withother elements attached. (Si, like carbon, has the ability to form polymers). Like many carbon-based polymers, silicones are used as lubricants, plastics,electrical insulators, etc. I don't believe any silicones occur in nature, but I'mnot sure of this. Some of the silicones are what you want to keep away from finishes. Silicon itself doesn't occur in nature, and the only finishingproblems you'd have with silica or silicon carbide would be grit. I don't knowanything about stearates or other substances that might be used as glues tohold the abrasive to the sandpaper. Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us from edriddle@mindspring.com Tue Apr 11 19:09:10 2000 Subject: Spar Preservation Thanks to all for the feedback. FYI, I'm using Behlen's W. W. Restoration Varnish which I ordered fromGarrettWade Co. Only spar I've tried, so can't compare to others, but I'msatisfiedwith it, ...it's high gloss and relatively clear.Ed from RMargiotta@aol.com Tue Apr 11 19:25:28 2000 Subject: Fwd: Varnish: sources & recommendations Bill: What method did you use to apply the spar urethane. I have it unthinned inmy one of my dip (not drip) tubes an it works just fine. Withdrawal rateisabout 3"/minute. I didn't thin it because it already seemed pretty thincompared to the Man-o-war in the other tube, which is thinned at about15%. The coats go on thin and even, but I will admit it looks "plasticy", as youobserve. I haven't used Varmor but suspect it will also look "plasticy" as well-- comments anyone? Formby's isn't an oil/varnish, just a highly thinned (mineral spirits, I suspect)interior tung oil varnish. It dries to a film just like any other varnish, exceptyou need a lot more coats. I have used in on rods and itworks fine -- you canlay on coat in a just a few minutes with a lint free cloth. You have to be verycareful the top coat unless you plan to polish. It also dries fast since it is sohighly thinned. However, you can thin out any varnish and do the same. I'drecommend starting out with a 50-50 mixand then increasing the varnishproportion until it won't lay out smoothanymore. Man-o-war can be purchased mail order from O-Gee Paints in FL: http://www.o-geepaint.com/ --Rich 19:40:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Varnish: sources & recommendations Bill;Regular ol' Man-O-War works just fine, and should be no problem in adriptype set-up(I use a dip tube). Just get the lid on the can quickand either keepthe level to the top, or turn the can over for storageas Bret suggested. Ican't help you with a source for Varmor, out herein Durango I considermyself lucky to get Man-O-War, both the lumberyards here and 1 of the 3paint stores and the hardware store all carryit. If you are going to go with anoil finish, I would reccommendTrue-Oil or an oil-varnish like Formby's and keepit waxed, oils aren'tvery good at stopping water vapor. I have had good luckon furniturewith Minwax Antique Oil Finish, but haven't tried it on a rod, I kindoflike high gloss varnish myself. With any finish, whether it is varnishorpaint, the higher the gloss, the better the weather protection.John Bill Hoy wrote: All this traffic about varnishes is very timely for me. I have been havingadevil of a time finding a source for varmor or man 'o war spar. I usedminwaxhelmsman thinned 20 percent for my first rod and it is notacceptable, toothick even with thinning and too plasticky looking. So I tried to find some varmor poly or spar varnish. Here's what I foundout. Pratt and Lambert is apparently not interested in selling theirproducts.Ispent days finding a fairly local dealer, which included a librarysearchof the thomas register and a half-dozen phone calls to cleveland,P&L'shome base. I finally found the dealer list in the R&D(!)department.Customer service apparently does not exist at P&L. Called thedealer, andthey won't order from them any more because P&L won't ship anythinglessthan a case lot andwon't take returns. I have not been able to find adealer in the commonwealthof virginia who will order from P&L. The dealer also told me that McCloskey doesn't make marine sparvarnishanymore because of environmental regulations. He thought that noUScompanymakes marine spar any more. McCloskey recommends the regularspar.Thewarehouse has 11 half-pints of marine spar for $5.50 a pop. My questions: 1). Where do you folks get varmor? Is there a mailorder sourceforesotericfinishes out there? 2). Is there a readily available alternative to varmor with thesamecharacteristics? 3). If not, should I go with spar varnish instead? Is regular sparacceptablesince I can't find marine spar? 4). I hope to build a drip tube system for finishing, but I've surmisedthattraditional spar doesn't work as well as poly for this. Am Imistaken? 5). Would I be crazy to use tung oil? I know it's not supposed to be verywaterproof, but I really like the look of tung finishes: very thin andthey polish to anelegant luster. Is there a spar or poly that has thissame look? As an aside, I've found a source for clear pvc tubing from Mcmaster-Carr(do a clear pvc search) for drip tubes. They have manydifferentdiameters from 1/2 inch to 2 inch (I think). What's the smallest diameter I can getawaywith? Does anybody have the formula for determining how muchvarnishthedifferent diameters would require? Thanks in advance. I know there are a lot of questions, but this is vexingmeno end. Bill Hoy from freaner@home.com Tue Apr 11 19:48:21 2000 ;Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:48:19 -0700 Subject: Re: vacation At 5:16 PM -0600 , 4/11/00, cadams46@juno.com wrote aboutvacationSorry to bother the list with this but my eyes went blurrylookingthrough all the help commands. Would someone please tell me whatthecommand for going off the list temporally and then what thecommandwillbe for getting back on the list afterwards. Thank- youSincerely,C.R. Adams send the message to LISTPROC@mail.wustl.edu SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE ----- To resume delivery of RODMAKERS mail: send the message to LISTPROC@mail.wustl.edu SET RODMAKERS MAIL ACK ----Have a nice vacation!Claude from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Tue Apr 11 20:03:00 2000 ;Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:02:28 +0000 Subject: Re: Preserving Spar Varnish Mark, Since you only assimilate 1/4 of the oxygen you inhale, you return quitea bitof molecular oxygen in your exhaled breath. That's why CPRworks. Unfortunately, it's also why you'd still introduce it into thevarnish. Dennis Paradise52@aol.com wrote: I'm new here, but I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents! A woodworkingteacher Iusedto work with told me to breath into a can of paint prior to sealingitup. Isuppose you could give it a try.Mark from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Apr 11 20:15:36 2000 Subject: Re: Varnish: sources & recommendations I don't recommend an oil finish for anything that will be exposed to theelements. I use oil finishes on my guns and they are not I repeat are notwater resistant. Stick to the varnishes and polys.Bret from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Apr 11 20:17:13 2000 Subject: Re: RE: Preserving Spar Varnish Mark, I think that guy must have been telling you to inhale into the canbecause exhaling wont get you anywhere but at least inhaling will get youhigh.Bret from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 11 20:37:47 2000 VAA04959; Subject: Re: silicon vs. silicone Here's an interesting piece of trivia. If you take some of this silicone,as inaquarium cementor silicone sealer aka bath tube cauking and subjectit to theheat of a hobby ceramic kiln (temperature of about 2000 degreesF, it turnsinto pretty white sand! Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 05:39 PM 4/11/00 -0500, nobler wrote:There are so many modificationsto many elements, to make them compatible with other medias, there's noaccounting for the numbers. Themain thing is that silicone is far differentform the silica's used forabrasives, etc.. GMA ----- Original Message ----- Tuesday, April 11, 2000 5:28 PM Subject: Re: silicon vs. silicone TheAmerican Heritage Dictionary includes in its definition of silicone,thatadhesives, protective coatings, They put it in our adhesives and paints and then we keep buyingmoreandmore new cans of finish to overcome the problem. I guess that isn't very funny........sorry. Chris from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Apr 11 21:42:27 2000 Subject: ammonium chloride I have found a supplier here in Nova Scotia for ammonium chloride toreplacethe Urac hardener. I have to buy it in a 1 kg box though (only$18, so I don'tmind). The question I have is, how do I know if thisis the rightstuff?Someone on here mentioned "Regent grade", is that a brand name oraquality level? When I asked what form it was in they said it is granularjustabove powder but big enough particles to see. Is this what I wantor should itbe finer? Shawn from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Apr 11 21:52:41 2000 Subject: Re: ammonium chloride I think the word is reagent grade, which is pretty chemically pure. I =knownothing about this material, and could use some instruction too. =Does it alsocome in liquid form ? GMA I have found a supplier here in Nova Scotia for ammonium chloride toreplacethe Urac hardener. I have to buy it in a 1 kg box though (only$18, so I don'tmind). The question I have is, how do I know if thisis the rightstuff?Someone on here mentioned "Regent grade", is that a brand name oraquality level? When I asked what form it was in they said it is =granularjustabove powder but big enough particles to see. Is this what I wantor should itbe finer? Shawn I think the word is reagent grade, which is pretty = I know nothing about this material, and could use some instruction too. = also come in liquid form ? GMA ----- Original Message ----- Shawn Pineo = PMSubject: ammonium =chlorideI have found a supplier here in Nova Scotia chloride toreplace the Urac hardener. I have to buy it in a 1 kg = though (only$18, so I don't mind). The question I have is, how do = know if thisis the right stuff?Someone on here mentioned = grade", is that a brand name or aquality level? When I asked what = was in they said it is granularjust above powder but big enough = finer?Shawn from jczimny@dol.net Tue Apr 11 22:15:38 2000 Subject: Re: ammonium chloride Shawn,You don't need reagent grade for catalyst. You don't need ultra purityforthis application. Dissolve it in a little water.John Z from bhoy@inmind.com Tue Apr 11 22:20:36 2000 Subject: Re: Fwd: Varnish: sources & recommendations I used the varnish-in-a-film-can method recommended recently byShawnPineo (I think) Drill out the bottom of the film can, stretch a latexglove over the bottom, prick a pinhole in the latex and s-l-o-w-l-y lower thecontraption down the blank. It works, but it's tedious. (Hint, pee BEFORE youstart a blank) I still got some runs. I used a heating pad to keep the varnishvery warm. Even though the varnish itself seemed very thin, to my eye, itseemed to go on thick, even with a very slow (1/2 hour per section)application. I just don't like the plasticky look you get from most popular gloss polys. What I gather from comments about varmor, ithas a more traditional luster and it hasother properties that rodmakers like in terms of application and durability. I know there have been discussions about traditional spar vs. poly, but whatdo the experts out there recommend for a beginner with VERY traditionalleanings? Sixty or seventy bucks a gallon delivered makes this more than justan idle decision for someone who's saving up for a bale of good cane. Bill Hoy At 08:24 PM 4/11/00 -0400, RMargiotta@aol.com wrote:Bill: What method did you use to apply the spar urethane. I have it unthinnedinmyone of my dip (not drip) tubes an it works just fine. Withdrawal rateisabout3"/minute. I didn't thin it because it already seemed pretty thincompared tothe Man-o-war in the other tube, which is thinned at about15%.The coats goon thin and even, but I will admit it looks "plasticy", as youobserve. I haven'tused Varmor but suspect it will also look "plasticy" aswell -- commentsanyone? Formby's isn't an oil/varnish, just a highly thinned (mineral spirits, Isuspect)interior tung oil varnish. It dries to a film just like any othervarnish, exceptyou need a lot more coats. I have used in on rods and itworks fine -- you canlay on coat in a just a few minutes with a lint freecloth. You have to be verycareful the top coat unless you plan to polish.It also dries fast since it is sohighly thinned. However, you can thin outany varnish and do the same. I'drecommend starting out with a 50-50mix andthen increasing the varnishproportion until it won't lay out smoothanymore. Man-o-war can be purchased mail order from O-Gee Paints in FL: http://www.o-geepaint.com/ --RichReturn-Path: Received: from rly-yh05.mx.aol.com (rly-yh05.mail.aol.com 19:40:42 -0400 0500 0600 Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-gatewaynet (Win98; I)X-Accept-Language: enX- Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Bill;Regular ol' Man-O-War works just fine, and should be no problem in adriptype set-up(I use a dip tube). Just get the lid on the can quickand either keepthe level to the top, or turn the can over for storageas Bret suggested. Ican't help you with a source for Varmor, out herein Durango I considermyself lucky to get Man-O-War, both the lumberyards here and 1 of the 3paint stores and the hardware store all carryit. If you are going to go with anoil finish, I would reccommendTrue-Oil or an oil-varnish like Formby's and keepit waxed, oils aren'tvery good at stopping water vapor. I have had good luckon furniturewith Minwax Antique Oil Finish, but haven't tried it on a rod, I kindoflike high gloss varnish myself. With any finish, whether it is varnishorpaint, the higher the gloss, the better the weather protection.John Bill Hoy wrote: All this traffic about varnishes is very timely for me. I have beenhavingadevil of a time finding a source for varmor or man 'o war spar. I usedminwaxhelmsman thinned 20 percent for my first rod and it is notacceptable, toothick even with thinning and too plasticky looking. So I tried to find some varmor poly or spar varnish. Here's what I found out. Pratt and Lambert is apparently not interested in selling theirproducts.Ispent days finding a fairly local dealer, which included a library searchof thethomas register and a half-dozen phone calls to cleveland, P&L'shome base. Ifinally found the dealer list in the R&D(!) department.Customer serviceapparently does not exist at P&L. Called the dealer,andthey won't order from them any more because P&L won't ship anythinglessthan a case lot andwon't take returns. I have not been able to find adealer in the commonwealthof virginia who will order from P&L. The dealer also told me that McCloskey doesn't make marine sparvarnishanymore because of environmental regulations. He thought that noUScompanymakes marine spar any more. McCloskey recommends the regularspar.Thewarehouse has 11 half-pints of marine spar for $5.50 a pop. My questions: 1). Where do you folks get varmor? Is there a mailorder sourceforesotericfinishes out there? 2). Is there a readily available alternative to varmor with thesamecharacteristics? 3). If not, should I go with spar varnish instead? Is regular sparacceptablesince I can't find marine spar? 4). I hope to build a drip tube system for finishing, but I've surmisedthattraditional spar doesn't work as well as poly for this. Am Imistaken? 5). Would I be crazy to use tung oil? I know it's not supposed to be verywaterproof, but I really like the look of tung finishes: very thin andthey polish to anelegant luster. Is there a spar or poly that has thissame look? As an aside, I've found a source for clear pvc tubing from Mcmaster-Carr(do a clear pvc search) for drip tubes. They have manydifferentdiameters from 1/2 inch to 2 inch (I think). What's the smallest diameter I cangetawaywith? Does anybody have the formula for determining how muchvarnishthedifferent diameters would require? Thanks in advance. I know there are a lot of questions, but this isvexingmeno end. Bill Hoy from Jerrymorton@email.msn.com Tue Apr 11 22:22:59 2000 Subject: Preserving finishing materials Another old trick is to add glass marbles to the can until the air in thecan isreduced to a minimum. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Apr 12 00:32:24 2000 Subject: Re: Need help fast Here's tonight's results for anyone who is interested: Went to Wally World and bought a new container of mineral spirits, andanewroll of shop towels (the blue paper ones). On the advice of alistmember, Icarefully sanded down the butt section of the rod, usingverylight pressure,and regular (not no-load) sandpaper. I cleaned the heck outof the sectionwith the new mineral spirits, and a new paper towel off ofanew roll.Again onthe advice of a listmember, I dripped about a half- teaspoonof the new, highpriced mineral spirits ($3/pint) on top of the PittsburghPaints 77-5polyurethane. I carefully removed all dust, and rigged thesection fordipping.The results were astounding. Before, on the same butt section, Ihadexactly twenty fish-eyes. Once I got the section about halfway out ofthevarnish, I carefully examined it with a flashlight. This time, therearehundreds of fish-eyes! So I yanked the section out, and wiped it downwithmineral spirits to get the newly applied varnish off. Here's my thinking: The problem isn't in the mineral spirits - it'sa newcontainer. It isn't in the towels - a new roll. It may be that Ineed to get thesection really dry, with a rag, before dipping it. I mayalso need to clean allthe mineral spirits off with alcohol, or ammonia, oranother cleaner.But I thinkthe culprit is probably my dip tube. This is newvarnish, in a new tube. Maybe,without realizing it, I somehowcontaminatedthe tube with oil or wax or somesort of lubricant. My plan for tomorrow is to try again - with either a new tube andnew poly, orwith an oil based spar varnish. Does anyone know what kindofresults I canexpect with spar varnish over well sanded polyurethane?All comments,suggestions, and brilliant ideas are welcome. And Idon't blame you forsnickering. If this weren't happening to me, it wouldbe funny. :-) Harry --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 12 04:02:38 2000 Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:02:05 -0300 Subject: Re: Fwd: Varnish: sources & recommendations Bill,it's an amazing method isn't it? I cannot take credit for it though,Ionlyimprovised the film can part. I cut the whole bottom off my filmcans.What kind of poly do you use? I think that the reason some guysaregetting a"plasticy" look is that they aren't quite thinned enough and aretrying toput toomany coats on. I don't think you need as many coats as withvarnish.I just put my spar urethane in the heating cabinet while I'mgettingtheblank ready.Which brings up another topic, I am going to put theblank in the dryingcabinet to for awhile from now on before varnishing. I think that this hastwobenefits: 1) becausethe blank and varnish/poly are the same temp I thinkit willproduce an evenbetter finish.2) It will take out any excess moisture right at that last minute. Anyopinions? ShawnP.S. If you stick with the film can and practice, not only will yourrunsgoaway but the price of your varnish if you do switch will drop to about$10. Bill Hoy wrote: I used the varnish-in-a-film-can method recommended recently byShawnPineo(I think) Drill out the bottom of the film can, stretch a latex gloveoverthe bottom, prick a pinhole in the latex and s-l-o-w-l-y lowerthecontraption down the blank. It works, but it's tedious. (Hint, peeBEFOREyou start a blank) I still got some runs. I used a heating pad to keepthe varnish very warm. Even though the varnish itself seemed verythin,tomy eye, it seemed to go on thick, even with a very slow (1/2 hourpersection) application. I just don't like the plasticky look you get frommostpopular gloss polys. What I gather from comments about varmor, ithasa more traditional luster and it hasother properties that rodmakers likein terms of application and durability. I know there have been discussions about traditional spar vs. poly, butwhatdo the experts out there recommend for a beginner with VERYtraditionalleanings? Sixty or seventy bucks a gallon delivered makesthismore than justan idle decision for someone who's saving up for a bale ofgood cane. Bill Hoy At 08:24 PM 4/11/00 -0400, RMargiotta@aol.com wrote:Bill: What method did you use to apply the spar urethane. I have it unthinnedinmyone of my dip (not drip) tubes an it works just fine. Withdrawalrate isabout3"/minute. I didn't thin it because it already seemed pretty thincompared tothe Man-o-war in the other tube, which is thinned at about15%.The coats goon thin and even, but I will admit it looks "plasticy", asyouobserve. I haven'tused Varmor but suspect it will also look "plasticy"aswell -- commentsanyone? Formby's isn't an oil/varnish, just a highly thinned (mineral spirits, Isuspect)interior tung oil varnish. It dries to a film just like any othervarnish, exceptyou need a lot more coats. I have used in on rods and itworks fine -- you canlay on coat in a just a few minutes with a lintfreecloth. You have to be verycareful the top coat unless you plan to polish.It also dries fast since it is sohighly thinned. However, you can thinoutany varnish and do the same. I'drecommend starting out with a 50-50mix andthen increasing the varnishproportion until it won't lay out smoothanymore. Man-o-war can be purchased mail order from O-Gee Paints in FL: http://www.o-geepaint.com/ --RichReturn-Path: Received: from rly-yh05.mx.aol.com (rly-yh05.mail.aol.com 19:40:42 -0400 0500 0600 Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-gatewaynet (Win98; I)X-Accept-Language: enX- Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Bill;Regular ol' Man-O-War works just fine, and should be no problem in adriptype set-up(I use a dip tube). Just get the lid on the can quickand either keepthe level to the top, or turn the can over for storageas Bret suggested. Ican't help you with a source for Varmor, out herein Durango I considermyself lucky to get Man-O-War, both the lumberyards here and 1 of the 3paint stores and the hardware store all carryit. If you are going to go with anoil finish, I would reccommendTrue-Oil or an oil-varnish like Formby's and keepit waxed, oils aren'tvery good at stopping water vapor. I have had good luckon furniturewith Minwax Antique Oil Finish, but haven't tried it on a rod, I kindoflike high gloss varnish myself. With any finish, whether it is varnishorpaint, the higher the gloss, the better the weather protection.John Bill Hoy wrote: All this traffic about varnishes is very timely for me. I have beenhavingadevil of a time finding a source for varmor or man 'o war spar. Iusedminwaxhelmsman thinned 20 percent for my first rod and it is notacceptable, toothick even with thinning and too plasticky looking. So I tried to find some varmor poly or spar varnish. Here's what Ifound out. Pratt and Lambert is apparently not interested in selling theirproducts.Ispent days finding a fairly local dealer, which included a librarysearchof thethomas register and a half-dozen phone calls to cleveland,P&L'shome base. Ifinally found the dealer list in the R&D(!) department.Customer serviceapparently does not exist at P&L. Called the dealer,andthey won't order from them any more because P&L won't ship anythinglessthan a case lot andwon't take returns. I have not been able to find adealer in the commonwealthof virginia who will order from P&L. The dealer also told me that McCloskey doesn't make marine sparvarnishanymore because of environmental regulations. He thought that noUScompanymakes marine spar any more. McCloskey recommends the regularspar.Thewarehouse has 11 half-pints of marine spar for $5.50 a pop. My questions: 1). Where do you folks get varmor? Is there a mailorder sourceforesotericfinishes out there? 2). Is there a readily available alternative to varmor with thesamecharacteristics? 3). If not, should I go with spar varnish instead? Is regular sparacceptablesince I can't find marine spar? 4). I hope to build a drip tube system for finishing, but I've surmisedthattraditional spar doesn't work as well as poly for this. Am Imistaken? 5). Would I be crazy to use tung oil? I know it's not supposed to beverywaterproof, but I really like the look of tung finishes: very thin andthey polish to anelegant luster. Is there a spar or poly that has thissame look? As an aside, I've found a source for clear pvc tubing from Mcmaster-Carr(do a clear pvc search) for drip tubes. They have manydifferentdiameters from 1/2 inch to 2 inch (I think). What's the smallest diameter I cangetawaywith? Does anybody have the formula for determining howmuch varnishthedifferent diameters would require? Thanks in advance. I know there are a lot of questions, but this isvexingmeno end. Bill Hoy from wbinn@michiana.org Wed Apr 12 07:17:31 2000 Subject: Re: Need help fast Harry,I've only had a fisheye problem once, but this is what I changed inmyprocess to correct it. I had used mineral spirits and paper towels tocleanbefore dipping. I switched to isopropyl alcohol and computerscreencleaningpaper cloths and wash my hands before starting. I take careto allow thesections to dry thoroughly before dipping. That doesn't take longas thealcohol evaporates fast.The theory was the mineral spirits containedsomekind of oil and I probably wasn't allowing the section to drycompletelybefore I dropped it into the tank. Haven't had a re- occurancesince.Winston Binney from nobler@satx.rr.com Wed Apr 12 07:41:16 2000 Subject: Re: Need help fast Based on past experiences, I'm inclined to believe it's the mineral =spirits.The solution itself seems "oily" to me. I'd just try wiping =down with acetone,or MEK, while wearing fresh latex gloves, then go =straight into the drip tubeabout 5 - min. after the wipe down, to allow = I've used a couple of brands of poly-u, on engine parts, spraying it =over afreshly dried enamel surface, with never a problem. All my PHY =rods aredone in Valspar Marine type varnish, so I have no experience to =draw on withit on rods. They are close to 50 years old now, and still =perfect, for abrushed on surface. GMA Here's tonight's results for anyone who is interested: Went to Wally World and bought a new container of mineral spirits, =andanew roll of shop towels (the blue paper ones). On the advice ofalistmember, I carefully sanded down the butt section of the rod, using=verylight pressure, and regular (not no-load) sandpaper. I cleaned the=heck outof the section with the new mineral spirits, and a new paper toweloff =of anew roll.Again on the advice of a listmember, I dripped about a=half-teaspoonof the new, high priced mineral spirits ($3/pint) on top of the=PittsburghPaints 77-5 polyurethane. I carefully removed all dust, andrigged =thesection for dipping.The results were astounding. Before, on thesame butt =section, Ihad exactly twenty fish-eyes. Once I got the sectionabout halfway =out ofthe varnish, I carefully examined it with a flashlight. This time, =thereare hundreds of fish-eyes! So I yanked the section out, andwiped it =downwith mineral spirits to get the newly applied varnish off. Here's my thinking: The problem isn't in the mineral spirits =- it'sa newcontainer. It isn't in the towels - a new roll. It may be =that Ineed to getthe section really dry, with a rag, before dipping it. I =mayalso need to cleanall the mineral spirits off with alcohol, or =ammonia, oranother cleaner.But Ithink the culprit is probably my dip tube. This is newvarnish, in a new tube. Maybe, without realizing it, I somehow =contaminatedthe tube with oil or waxor some sort of lubricant. My plan for tomorrow is to try again - with either a new tube =andnew poly,or with an oil based spar varnish. Does anyone know what =kind ofresults Ican expect with spar varnish over well sanded polyurethane?All comments,suggestions, and brilliant ideas are welcome. =And Idon't blame you forsnickering. If this weren't happening to me, it =wouldbe funny. :-) Harry --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ Based on past experiences, I'm inclined to believe it's the = spirits. The solution itself seems "oily" to me. I'd just try wiping = the drip tube about 5 - min. after the wipe down, to allow all the MEK, = evaporate. I've used a couple of brands of poly-u, on engine parts, = it over a freshly dried enamel surface, with never a problem. All my PHY = are done in Valspar Marine type varnish, so I have no experience to draw = it on rods. They are close to 50 years old now, and still perfect, for a = on surface. GMA ----- Original Message ----- Harry = = AMSubject: Re: Need help =fast = container of mineral spirits, and anew roll of shop towels (the = butt section of the rod, using verylight pressure, and regular = listmember, I dripped about a half-teaspoonof the new, high priced = spirits ($3/pint) on top of the PittsburghPaints 77-5 = that Ineed to get the section really dry, with a rag, before = = Maybe, without realizing it, I somehow contaminatedthe tube with = = Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorod=s.eboard.com/ from nobler@satx.rr.com Wed Apr 12 07:45:08 2000 Subject: Re: Fwd: Varnish: sources & recommendations Applying either a finish or epoxy glues onto a warm or even hot surface,=tends to help the penetration. Continued heating will make the product=bubble of course, but as the hot/warm surface cools down, the finish=seems to be "pulled" into the surface better. GMA & recommendations Bill,it's an amazing method isn't it? I cannot take credit for it =though, Ionlyimprovised the film can part. I cut the whole bottom off my filmcans.What kind of poly do you use? I think that the reason some guys =aregetting a"plasticy" look is that they aren't quite thinned enough and are=trying to put toomany coats on. I don't think you need as many coats aswith varnish.I just put my spar urethane in the heating cabinet while I'm=getting theblank ready.Which brings up another topic, I am going to put theblank in =the dryingcabinet to for awhile from now on before varnishing. I think that this =has twobenefits: 1)because the blank and varnish/poly are the same temp I =think it willproducean even better finish.2) It will take out any excess moisture right at thatlast =minute. Anyopinions? ShawnP.S. If you stick with the film can and practice, not only will =your runsgoaway but the price of your varnish if you do switch will drop to about =$10. Bill Hoy wrote: I used the varnish-in-a-film-can method recommended recently by =ShawnPineo(I think) Drill out the bottom of the film can, stretch a latex =gloveoverthe bottom, prick a pinhole in the latex and s-l-o-w-l-y lowerthecontraption down the blank. It works, but it's tedious. (Hint, pee=BEFOREyou start a blank) I still got some runs. I used a heating pad to =keepthe varnish very warm. Even though the varnish itself seemed very=thin, tomy eye, it seemed to go on thick, even with a very slow (1/2 hour=persection) application. I just don't like the plasticky look you get=frommost popular gloss polys. What I gather from comments about varmor, =it hasa more traditional luster and it hasother properties that rodmakers =likein terms of application and durability. I know there have been discussions about traditional spar vs. poly, =butwhatdo the experts out there recommend for a beginner with VERYtraditionalleanings? Sixty or seventy bucks a gallon delivered =makes thismore thanjust an idle decision for someone who's saving up for a =bale ofgood cane. Bill Hoy At 08:24 PM 4/11/00 -0400, RMargiotta@aol.com wrote:Bill: What method did you use to apply the spar urethane. I have it =unthinnedinmy one of my dip (not drip) tubes an it works just fine. =Withdrawal rateisabout 3"/minute. I didn't thin it because it already seemed pretty=thincompared to the Man-o-war in the other tube, which is thinned at=about 15%.The coats go on thin and even, but I will admit it looks="plasticy", as youobserve. I haven't used Varmor but suspect it will alsolook ="plasticy" aswell -- comments anyone? Formby's isn't an oil/varnish, just a highly thinned (mineral =spirits, Isuspect)interior tung oil varnish. It dries to a film just like =any othervarnish, exceptyou need a lot more coats. I have used in on rods =and itworks fine -- youcan lay on coat in a just a few minutes with a =lint freecloth. You have to bevery careful the top coat unless you plan to =polish.It also dries fast since itis so highly thinned. However, you can =thin outany varnish and do the same. I'd recommend starting out with a =50-50 mix andthen increasing the varnishproportion until it won't lay out =smooth anymore. Man-o-war can be purchased mail order from O-Gee Paints in FL: http://www.o-geepaint.com/ --RichReturn-Path: Received: from rly-yh05.mx.aol.com (rly-yh05.mail.aol.com = 200019:40:42 -0400 0400 18:26:07 -0500 17:26:04 -0600 Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-gatewaynet (Win98; I)X-Accept-Language: enX- Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Bill;Regular ol' Man-O-War works just fine, and should be no problem in =adriptype set-up(I use a dip tube). Just get the lid on the can =quickand eitherkeep the level to the top, or turn the can over for =storageas Bretsuggested. I can't help you with a source for Varmor, out =herein Durango Iconsider myself lucky to get Man-O-War, both the =lumberyards here and 1of the 3 paint stores and the hardware store all =carryit. If you are going togo with an oil finish, I would reccommendTrue-Oil or an oil-varnish likeFormby's and keep it waxed, oils =aren'tvery good at stopping water vapor. Ihave had good luck on =furniturewith Minwax Antique Oil Finish, but haven'ttried it on a rod, I =kind oflike high gloss varnish myself. With any finish,whether it is =varnishor paint, the higher the gloss, the better the weatherprotection.John Bill Hoy wrote: All this traffic about varnishes is very timely for me. I have =been havingadevil of a time finding a source for varmor or man 'o war =spar. Iusedminwax helmsman thinned 20 percent for my first rod and it is=notacceptable, too thick even with thinning and too plasticky =looking. So I tried to find some varmor poly or spar varnish. Here's what =Ifound out. Pratt and Lambert is apparently not interested in selling their =products.Ispent days finding a fairly local dealer, which included a =library searchofthe thomas register and a half-dozen phone calls to =cleveland, P&L'shomebase. I finally found the dealer list in the R&D(!) =department.Customerservice apparently does not exist at P&L. Called the =dealer, andthey won'torder from them any more because P&L won't ship =anything lessthan a case lotand won't take returns. I have not been able to =find adealer in thecommonwealth of virginia who will order from P&L. The dealer also told me that McCloskey doesn't make marine spar =varnishanymore because of environmental regulations. He thought that no US=companymakes marine spar any more. McCloskey recommends the regular=spar. Thewarehouse has 11 half-pints of marine spar for $5.50 a pop. My questions: 1). Where do you folks get varmor? Is there a mailorder source = finishes out there? 2). Is there a readily available alternative to varmor with the=samecharacteristics? 3). If not, should I go with spar varnish instead? Is regular =sparacceptablesince I can't find marine spar? 4). I hope to build a drip tube system for finishing, but I've =surmisedthattraditional spar doesn't work as well as poly for this. Am =I mistaken? 5). Would I be crazy to use tung oil? I know it's not supposed =to beverywater proof, but I really like the look of tung finishes: very =thin andtheypolish to an elegant luster. Is there a spar or poly that =has thissame look? As an aside, I've found a source for clear pvc tubing from =Mcmaster-Carr(do a clear pvc search) for drip tubes. They have manydifferent =diameters from 1/2 inch to 2 inch (I think). What's the smallest diameter =I cangetaway with? Does anybody have the formula for determining how =muchvarnishthe different diameters would require? Thanks in advance. I know there are a lot of questions, but this =is vexingmeno end. Bill Hoy Applying either a finish or epoxy glues onto a warm or even= surface, tends to help the penetration. Continued heating will make the = bubble of course, but as the hot/warm surface cools down, the finish = "pulled" into the surface better. GMA ----- Original Message ----- Shawn Pineo AMSubject: Re: Fwd: Varnish: = recommendations amazing = isn't it? I cannot take credit for it though, I onlyimprovised the = = that the reason some guys are getting a"plasticy" look is that = quite thinned enough and are trying to put toomany coats on. I = you need as many coats as with = = topic, I am going to put the blank in the dryingcabinet to for = now on before varnishing. I think that this has twobenefits: 1) = the blank and varnish/poly are the same temp I think it = you = with the film can and practice, not only will your runs goaway but = price of your varnish if you do switch will drop to about = recommended = popular gloss polys. What I gather from comments about varmor, it = there have been discussions about traditional spar vs. poly, = = = <owner-rodmakers@wugate.w= = 2000 = <38F3B535.497DFFCF@rmi.net&g= rodmakers@wugate.w= = paint, the higher the gloss, the better the weather = than a case lot and won't take returns. I have not been able to find = = makes marine spar any more. McCloskey recommends the regular spar. = = I be crazy to use tung oil? I know it's not supposed to be = Hoy from sniderja@email.uc.edu Wed Apr 12 07:54:34 2000 Subject: reel seat inserts With the thread on rod finishes, is it appropriate to ask those of youwhomake your own wood reel seat inserts (or purchase unfinishedinserts)whattype(s) of finishes you use? Especially finishes used forinserts usingring or ring/cap type hardware, since these types tend to "dent& scratch"more so than uplocking/downlocking reel seats. I have beenturning a fewcocobolo inserts recently, and the wood seems to be quite oilyandfinisheswon't dry. Am tempted to simply wax the freshly turned insertand leave itat that. Comments?TIAJerry Snider from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Apr 12 08:12:18 2000 Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:12:11 -0700 Subject: Re: reel seat inserts Jerry,I've made a few cocobolo inserts. As hard and dense as that wood is,nofinish is really necessary. Try buffing the inserts with white rouge andasoft buffing wheel. The results are nice.Harry Jerry Snider wrote: With the thread on rod finishes, is it appropriate to ask those of youwhomake your own wood reel seat inserts (or purchase unfinishedinserts)whattype(s) of finishes you use? Especially finishes used forinserts usingring or ring/cap type hardware, since these types tend to "dent&scratch"more so than uplocking/downlocking reel seats. I have been turninga fewcocobolo inserts recently, and the wood seems to be quite oilyandfinisheswon't dry. Am tempted to simply wax the freshly turned insertand leaveitat that. Comments?TIAJerry Snider --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from Canerods@aol.com Wed Apr 12 08:18:40 2000 Subject: Re: Thanks for the help In a message dated 4/11/00 11:06:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,turtles@bright.net writes: Hi guys. Thanks for your replies and information about my rod. I believewhatI have is an Abbey-Imbrie, and I've been told it's either made byMontague orHeddon. Also, the reel seat has been replaced with a nicenickel silver one. Probably the old one had a Bakelite seat that broke. The guides have been reset or rewrapped. Sometime down the road,itmightbe a refinishing project for me to try. It casts nice, for a production rod! Thanks again, Jimmy Jimmy, Some Heddons came with NS reelseats. There's a sliding band seat and ascrewlock seat that were original equipment on earlier Heddons. Some seats are marked with "Heddon" on the buttcap, but manyweren'tmarked. Don Burns from RMargiotta@aol.com Wed Apr 12 08:18:54 2000 Subject: Re: reel seat inserts I haven't tried it, but teak oil is the traditional finish for oily woods likecocobola. --Rich from tball@sault.com Wed Apr 12 09:18:22 2000 0000 (206.152.252.101) Subject: Catt 6'3" 3wt I have made this rod in a nodeless version. I lays out a nice tippet. I preferthis rod tho for a 4wt. It really throws a nice line and willput out whateverlength is needed. Lots of luck. Tom from Trout Lake from DNHayashida@aol.com Wed Apr 12 09:54:39 2000 Subject: Sanding Enamel Sorry guys I did it again. Someone wrote to measking about when I sand offthe enamel when Iuse the Morgan hand mill, and it got deleted ina mass emaildeletion. I am hoping he will seethis on the list. The anvils on the Morgan hand mill are slightlyconcave from side to side on the top to accommodatethe curved surface of theoutside of the bamboostrip, so I guess Tom intended that strips beplanedwith the enamel on. Some rod makers say the stringand glue come offeasier if there is enamel left on,so clearly their technique is to sand theenamel offafter glue up. If you are a regular reader of thislist you will recallthat I don't hold "power fibers"(the thin layer of very small longitudinalfibersright under the enamel) in as high regard as someothers. My techniqueis to plane and scrape the enamelside flat of each spline during roughing. Thebumpsat the nodes are gone, I don't need to press them,and the strips aregenerally straighter when planing.Another benefit is the bamboo looks a lotbetterbecause most blemishes on the cane are just on thesurface. Try this - plane, scrape or sand a strip on the enamelside. Take a lot off, say.005 to .010. Sand it, andvarnish it. When dry, study it and get familiarwiththe appearance, notice how the fibers feather in andout. Then go to a flyshop that carries the major canerod brands and look at them close up. It isapparentto me that all of the major brands of cane rod makersplane, scrapeor sand off a lot of the enamel side oftheir rods, for them it's probably forappearance. This is why I put "heft" of a culm at the top of mycriteria for a good culm.Since I scrape off a lot ofthe enamel side, depth of fibers is the mostimportantto me. Darryl from leroyt@involved.com Wed Apr 12 09:54:54 2000 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35)with Subject: RE: Need help fast As someone else stated about mineral thinner not a good choice forwhatweare going to do with it, except for clean up.On a suggestion from an older painter am using VM&P Naphtha. Use issparingly as it will speedup the drying process. The VM&P is a closertolerance thinner.I use acetone,to clean after sanding, a tack cloth before dipping, and weardisposable glovesduring.Good Luck,Leroy.... -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Need help fast Here's tonight's results for anyone who is interested: Went to Wally World and bought a new container of mineralspirits, and anewroll of shop towels (the blue paper ones). On the advice of alistmember, Icarefully sanded down the butt section of the rod,using verylight pressure,and regular (not no-load) sandpaper. I cleanedthe heck outof the sectionwith the new mineral spirits, and a new papertowel off of anew roll.Again onthe advice of a listmember, I dripped about ahalf-teaspoonof the new, highpriced mineral spirits ($3/pint) on top of the PittsburghPaints 77- 5polyurethane. I carefully removed all dust, and rigged thesection fordipping.The results were astounding. Before, on the same butt section, Ihadexactly twenty fish-eyes. Once I got the section about halfway outofthevarnish, I carefully examined it with a flashlight. This time, therearehundreds of fish-eyes! So I yanked the section out, and wiped itdownwithmineral spirits to get the newly applied varnish off. Here's my thinking: The problem isn't in the mineralspirits - it'sa newcontainer. It isn't in the towels - a new roll. It may be that Ineed to get thesection really dry, with a rag, before dipping it. I mayalso need to clean allthe mineral spirits off with alcohol, orammonia, oranother cleaner.But I thinkthe culprit is probably my dip tube. This is newvarnish, in a new tube. Maybe,without realizing it, I somehowcontaminatedthe tube with oil or wax or somesort of lubricant. My plan for tomorrow is to try again - with either a new tube andnew poly, orwith an oil based spar varnish. Does anyone knowwhat kind ofresults I canexpect with spar varnish over well sanded polyurethane?All comments,suggestions, and brilliant ideas are welcome. And Idon't blame you forsnickering. If this weren't happening to me, it wouldbe funny. :-) Harry --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from oossg@vbe.com Wed Apr 12 10:13:41 2000 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Need help fast Harry,I may be out of my sphere of knowledge, but could the problemhaveanything todo with not stirring the varnish in the tube? It seems to meyou said thefirstdips went ok, but later ones did not. Adding mineral spiritsto the top ofthedip tube might seem to make it worse if the problem ismixing? $.02.Scott Harry Boyd wrote: Here's tonight's results for anyone who is interested: Went to Wally World and bought a new container of mineral spirits,and anewroll of shop towels (the blue paper ones). On the advice of alistmember, Icarefully sanded down the butt section of the rod, usingverylight pressure,and regular (not no-load) sandpaper. I cleaned the heckoutof the sectionwith the new mineral spirits, and a new paper towel offof anew roll.Again onthe advice of a listmember, I dripped about a half-teaspoonof the new, highpriced mineral spirits ($3/pint) on top of the PittsburghPaints 77- 5polyurethane. I carefully removed all dust, and rigged thesection fordipping.The results were astounding. Before, on the same butt section, Ihadexactly twenty fish-eyes. Once I got the section about halfway outofthevarnish, I carefully examined it with a flashlight. This time, therearehundreds of fish-eyes! So I yanked the section out, and wiped itdownwithmineral spirits to get the newly applied varnish off. Here's my thinking: The problem isn't in the mineral spirits - it'sa newcontainer. It isn't in the towels - a new roll. It may be that Ineed to get thesection really dry, with a rag, before dipping it. I mayalso need to clean allthe mineral spirits off with alcohol, or ammonia,oranother cleaner.But I thinkthe culprit is probably my dip tube. This is newvarnish, in a new tube. Maybe,without realizing it, I somehowcontaminatedthe tube with oil or wax or somesort of lubricant. My plan for tomorrow is to try again - with either a new tube andnew poly, orwith an oil based spar varnish. Does anyone know what kindofresults I canexpect with spar varnish over well sanded polyurethane?All comments,suggestions, and brilliant ideas are welcome. And Idon't blame you forsnickering. If this weren't happening to me, it wouldbe funny. :-) Harry --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com Wed Apr 12 10:54:18 2000 0400 Subject: RE: Need help fast I use an aerosal as well. It is a product claimed to have noingredients otherthan air. The can is old and rusty but still works.I think it was from a computer supply house for use on circuit boardsand keyboards andsuch (sorry I don't have the name handy, but can getit if people areinterested). I have used this, with and without awipe down with mineralspirits, in either order (making sure the blankis completely dry beforedipping) and never had fisheye problems(knock on cane). I used MinwaxHelmsman and Man o War spar, both atfull strength... -----Original Message----- dpfitch@collins.rockwell.com Subject: Re: Need help fast This morning's list has allot of talk about fisheyes and gases topreventgellingof varnish. When I got my EPON, I also got the goody box ofothersupplies. After sanding the 3rd coat on a couple of blanks, I usedone of theaerosols toblow sanding dust from around the guides/wraps. Next diphad lotsof fisheyes, mostlyin/around the guides/wraps. Sanded everythingdown again,thoroughlywashed the blanks with premium paint thinner, used a tackcloth, anddippedagain. Fisheyes gone. Beautiful finish. Later, an "expert" told me that most aerosols contain some amountofsilicon- -trace amounts. With this in mind, I might not use theaerosolsthatcome with Epon (or others) as an "inert" barrier above my varnish. DPF "PMG" on 04/11/2000 09:01:00 AM Please respond to pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Need help fast Tell your friend it a new and very expensive process and he's gettingitforfree. Seriously, is this a new can of finish? did you thin it withsomethingdifferent,maybe accidently. Try using the finish on a scrap pieceand see if yougetthesame results. was there any silcon used recently in yourshop or home. I suspect you are going to have to strip it and start with all newvarnish,etc. Paul ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Need help fast Friends,I'm finishing out a rod for a friend, and need somehelp quickly. I'musing Pittsburgh Paints 77-5 polyurethanevarnish. I've now got five coats onthe entire rod. Thefinish is showing some real problems with "fish- eyes,"andI'm not sure what to do about it.Someone is sure to mention problemswith silicone,and I don't think that is the problem. The only way thatsiliconecould have been introduced is through the siliconcarbide sandpaper. I'm usingthe same finish, same types ofrags, and so on that I have used successfullyin the past.I wet-sanded the first two coats almost completelyaway with1000 grit sandpaper. The fisheyes first appearedafter the third coat. Iwet-sanded that coat very smoothwith 2000 grit. Even more fisheyes. Same thing after thefourth coat. Fisheyes are worse than ever.What I need from you great people is a solution.How do I get rid of the problem????? Harry--Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from dpizza@access1.net Wed Apr 12 11:03:29 2000 Subject: Re: Sanding Enamel List and Darryl, If I build nodeless and manage to plane the feather-edge of my scarvesto0.008, Can I just add 0.008 to my taper and plan on removing thatmuchwhenI sand away the enamel ?? I am currently working on my first two rods and would considermyself"wetbehind the ears" so I hope this question isn't a "dumb question". TIA David-----Original Message----- Subject: Sanding Enamel Sorry guys I did it again. Someone wrote to measking about when I sand offthe enamel when Iuse the Morgan hand mill, and it got deleted ina mass emaildeletion. I am hoping he will seethis on the list. The anvils on the Morgan hand mill are slightlyconcave from side to side on the top to accommodatethe curved surface of theoutside of the bamboostrip, so I guess Tom intended that strips beplanedwith the enamel on. Some rod makers say the stringand glue come offeasier if there is enamel left on,so clearly their technique is to sand theenamel offafter glue up. If you are a regular reader of thislist you will recallthat I don't hold "power fibers"(the thin layer of very small longitudinalfibersright under the enamel) in as high regard as someothers. My techniqueis to plane and scrape the enamelside flat of each spline during roughing. Thebumpsat the nodes are gone, I don't need to press them,and the strips aregenerally straighter when planing.Another benefit is the bamboo looks a lotbetterbecause most blemishes on the cane are just on thesurface. Try this - plane, scrape or sand a strip on the enamelside. Take a lot off, say.005 to .010. Sand it, andvarnish it. When dry, study it and get familiarwiththe appearance, notice how the fibers feather in andout. Then go to a flyshop that carries the major canerod brands and look at them close up. It isapparentto me that all of the major brands of cane rod makersplane, scrapeor sand off a lot of the enamel side oftheir rods, for them it's probably forappearance. This is why I put "heft" of a culm at the top of mycriteria for a good culm.Since I scrape off a lot ofthe enamel side, depth of fibers is the mostimportantto me. Darryl from DNHayashida@aol.com Wed Apr 12 11:03:55 2000 Subject: Re: Need help fast What kind of dip tube do you have? I recall Waynehaving a fisheye problemwhen he made a copper diptube. Apparently the soldering flux from solderingon the end cap contaminated the varnish.Darryl from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Apr 12 11:06:09 2000 Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:05:50 -0700 Subject: More on fisheyes (was Re: Need help fast) Eureka!! I've found the problem!! Just got off the phone with Don Mills of Pittsburgh Paints, and hewas lotsofhelp. First of all, they don't make PPG 77-5 any longer, so if any ofyoulikethat product you better buy up all you can right away. As oflastSeptember,regulations changed and no product with that much VOC(volatile organiccompounds?)can be sold. He recommended a product byOlympic that's used for bartops, andtable tops and such. Doesn't sound likesomething I'll try.Second, and more importantly - it looks like I got a bad canofpoly-varnish. I stirred and stirred, and the stuff isn't clear, butrathercloudy.Don said the product should look like a dark beer, ambercolored, but clear. Mineisn't like that. Of course, I would never drink a beer,would I, so I don'treallyknow what it should look like. :-)Don recommended thatI recoat with another product, a PPG 77-4,which Ihappen to have a dip tubefull of. I think I'll give that a shot tonight, aftermaking a new dip tube out ofcopper, PVC, an old funnel, and a partridge ina peartree. Then I'll startsanding again, cleaning with mineral spirits, acetone,naptha, and vinegar. Then I'll tack rag the thing, clean it with air, cleanwith alens brush then a lenscloth, and finally get two little elves fromGreenland, youknow the guys withthe pointy ears, to hold the string while slowly pullingthe rod from the varnish. Seriously -- THANK YOU all for your efforts to help me. TomorrowmorningI'll post my results if anyone is interested! Harry --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Wed Apr 12 11:37:22 2000 9:40:21 PDT Subject: More on fisheyes (was Re: Need help fast) Harry, Watch those partridges in a pear tree. They'll foul a dip tube faster thenanything. I've gone to quail now. And I'm sorry to say, the Greenland elvesare on strike. Contract negotiations fell through. It's been a serious blow torodmaking. We would like to hear how Don's recommendations come out. Thanks. Chris from rmoon@ida.net Wed Apr 12 11:52:34 2000 0000 Subject: Re: reel seat inserts Jerry I have used a product from Behlens called a padding finish. Just alittle dab on a soft cloth and whilethe piece is turning in the lathehold the cloth on it until it is quite warm. Even over Coca Bolo. Isometimes use a hard carnauba wax over thefinish.Ralph from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 12 12:11:04 2000 Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:10:28 -0300 Subject: Re: Sanding Enamel Darryl,I must agree with you. Thanks for saying what some of us wereafraidto say!I think if you have good depth, taking a few fibers, perhapsevenunsightly fibers away isn't going to harm the quality of the rod. Shawn DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: Sorry guys I did it again. Someone wrote to measking about when I sand offthe enamel when Iuse the Morgan hand mill, and it got deleted ina mass emaildeletion. I am hoping he will seethis on the list. The anvils on the Morgan hand mill are slightlyconcave from side to side on the top to accommodatethe curved surface of theoutside of the bamboostrip, so I guess Tom intended that strips beplanedwith the enamel on. Some rod makers say the stringand glue come offeasier if there is enamel left on,so clearly their technique is to sand theenamel offafter glue up. If you are a regular reader of thislist you will recallthat I don't hold "power fibers"(the thin layer of very small longitudinalfibersright under the enamel) in as high regard as someothers. My techniqueis to plane and scrape the enamelside flat of each spline during roughing. Thebumpsat the nodes are gone, I don't need to press them,and the strips aregenerally straighter when planing.Another benefit is the bamboo looks a lotbetterbecause most blemishes on the cane are just on thesurface. Try this - plane, scrape or sand a strip on the enamelside. Take a lot off, say.005 to .010. Sand it, andvarnish it. When dry, study it and get familiarwiththe appearance, notice how the fibers feather in andout. Then go to a flyshop that carries the major canerod brands and look at them close up. It isapparentto me that all of the major brands of cane rod makersplane, scrapeor sand off a lot of the enamel side oftheir rods, for them it's probably forappearance. This is why I put "heft" of a culm at the top of mycriteria for a good culm.Since I scrape off a lot ofthe enamel side, depth of fibers is the mostimportantto me. Darryl from gabriele.moultrie@multimedica.de Wed Apr 12 12:45:42 2000 2000 17:38:41 UT fwproxy.multimedica.de 12 Apr 2000 17:36:42 UT 194.138.18.99 (Norton AntiVirus for InternetEmail Gateways 1.0) ; Wed, 12Apr 2000 09:48:31 0000 (GMT) fwcommunity.multimedica.de 12 Apr 2000 17:36:40 UT Subject: Re: Bamboo Rodmakers Database Program v2.0 Hi Joe Thankyou for a great programm, that must have been a LOT of work.Youmust havehad a lot of help from the people on the list over the years :-) ......as I havelately. One or two "suggestions" bearing in mind that I am a computer user only(Idonot know a thing about them). Is there any way of incorperating Hexrod or something intoyourprogramm,allowing users to view the stress curve as well as themeasurements,making iteasier (for me) to judge how the rod may reactduring casting? I know theprogramm is not there to design rods, but having itall in one place wouldmakesense. Everything is in inches and feet. Fine, but for some of us used to dealinginMillimeters ect. it means converting some of the information becausesometoolsavailable in Europe only have Millimeter markings. Is there a waytochoosebetween Millimeter/Inch readings. Ferrules and Guides are often alsosoldonlywith Millimeter measurements (here). Once again thankyou for a very well "made" programm, it must be agreatfeelingto have paid everything and more back and to have your love foryour wifedisplayed through such a strange medium! ThanksStuart "Joe C. Byrd" wrote: After 7 months of development, Bamboo Rodmakers Database Programv2.0hasbeen released to the General Public. This program will allow youtherodbuilder to keep track of all your tapers, rods, clients, etc. Thisprogram is fully configurable by you, the end user. To get your copy go to http://www.direct-pest.com/brmdp you maydownloadtheprogram from there. Please note that the program is passwordprotected.You willneed to subscribe to our support mailing list to get thepassword.You cansubscribe from the webpage. Once subscribed the system willautomatically send youand email with the password. This program is fully functional, and is shareware. It was developedasshareware as my way of giving something back to therodbuildingcommunitythat has shared so much with me. I want to thank Chris Bogart and the Beta Test team for all theirhelpthesepast months. Thanks Joe =================================================Lost in theHills of East Tennessee with a Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in theother....."What a Great Life" from DNHayashida@aol.com Wed Apr 12 13:02:18 2000 Subject: Re: Sanding Enamel I can't help you there, I've never made a nodeless rod.Maybe I should, just tosee what all this nodeless stuffis all about....Darryl List and Darryl, If I build nodeless and manage to plane the feather-edge of myscarvesto0.008, Can I just add 0.008 to my taper and plan on removing thatmuchwhenI sand away the enamel ?? I am currently working on my first two rods and would considermyself"wetbehind the ears" so I hope this question isn't a "dumb question". TIA David-----Original Message-----From: DNHayashida@aol.com Sorry guys I did it again. Someone wrote to measking about when I sand offthe enamel when Iuse the Morgan hand mill, and it got deleted ina mass emaildeletion. I am hoping he will seethis on the list. The anvils on the Morgan hand mill are slightlyconcave from side to side on the top to accommodatethe curved surface of theoutside of the bamboostrip, so I guess Tom intended that strips beplanedwith the enamel on. Some rod makers say the stringand glue come offeasier if there is enamel left on,so clearly their technique is to sand theenamel offafter glue up. If you are a regular reader of thislist you will recallthat I don't hold "power fibers"(the thin layer of very small longitudinalfibersright under the enamel) in as high regard as someothers. My techniqueis to plane and scrape the enamelside flat of each spline during roughing. Thebumpsat the nodes are gone, I don't need to press them,and the strips aregenerally straighter when planing.Another benefit is the bamboo looks a lotbetterbecause most blemishes on the cane are just on thesurface. Try this - plane, scrape or sand a strip on the enamelside. Take a lot off, say.005 to .010. Sand it, andvarnish it. When dry, study it and get familiarwiththe appearance, notice how the fibers feather in andout. Then go to a flyshop that carries the major canerod brands and look at them close up. It isapparentto me that all of the major brands of cane rod makersplane, scrapeor sand off a lot of the enamel side oftheir rods, for them it's probably forappearance. This is why I put "heft" of a culm at the top of mycriteria for a good culm.Since I scrape off a lot ofthe enamel side, depth of fibers is the mostimportantto me. Darryl from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed Apr 12 13:19:22 2000 Subject: Re: Sanding Enamel David, I don't quite understand your description. It sounds like you aremaking thescarves by planing from the top or bottom of the stripsinstead of the sides of the strips. Ithink that is not the wayto do them. Either that or I'm doing them wrong and you and everyone else isright(wouldn't be the firsttime.)......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than awaterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck",1899. On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, dpizza wrote: List and Darryl, If I build nodeless and manage to plane the feather-edge of myscarvesto0.008, Can I just add 0.008 to my taper and plan on removing thatmuchwhenI sand away the enamel ?? I am currently working on my first two rods and would considermyself"wetbehind the ears" so I hope this question isn't a "dumb question". TIA David from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Wed Apr 12 14:59:37 2000 Subject: Re: Preserving Spar Varnish edriddle@mindspring.com you can also use a straw and blow carbon monoxide from your lungs intothe can, it's a lot cheaper than canned gas. from dhaftel@att.com Wed Apr 12 15:11:43 2000 QAA04220 (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: Preserving Spar Varnish If you're blowing carbon monoxide from your lungs you have biggerproblemsthan lumpy varnish! I think youmeant carbon dioxide. The onlyproblemwith that is that you're also exhalingoxygen. Dennis -----Original Message----- edriddle@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Preserving Spar Varnish you can also use a straw and blow carbon monoxide from your lungs intothe can, it's a lot cheaper than canned gas. from DNHayashida@aol.com Wed Apr 12 15:23:58 2000 Subject: Re: Sanding Enamel I don't know for sure, but I think if I was goingto make a nodeless rod I wouldscarf them top tobottom or inside to outside depending on how youlook at it.Seems like the scafs would be almostinvisible that way.Darryl David, I don't quite understand your description. It sounds like you aremaking thescarves by planing from the top or bottom of the stripsinstead of the sides of the strips. Ithink that is not the wayto do them. Either that or I'm doing them wrong and you and everyone else isright(wouldn't be the firsttime.)......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than awaterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck",1899. On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, dpizza wrote: List and Darryl, If I build nodeless and manage to plane the feather-edge of myscarvesto0.008, Can I just add 0.008 to my taper and plan on removing thatmuchwhenI sand away the enamel ?? I am currently working on my first two rods and would considermyself"wetbehind the ears" so I hope this question isn't a "dumb question". TIA David from paul.blakley@dtn.ntl.com Wed Apr 12 15:37:19 2000 helo=dtn.ntl.com) Subject: Brandreth Rods Has anyone on the list ever seen,owned or heard of rods by G R BrandrethofDerby ,England?If you have, what information have you about them ? Many Thanks........Paul from bob@downandacross.com Wed Apr 12 16:03:12 2000 from bob@downandacross.com) from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: Re: Sanding Enamel --=====================_1372716==_.ALT I think you are right Frank, if I am interpreting you correctly.I make myscarfs from right to left (or left to right) as you look at the strip from the top. I put them in the splice block with the enamel either facingtowards me or away from me. I then plane off one side into a point that corresponds to the spliceblocks rise. from top like this: _________________________________________________________________/////// _/_________________________________________________________________ Does that make sense?Bob At 01:19 PM 4/12/00 -0500, you wrote:David, I don't quite understand your description. It sounds like you aremaking thescarves by planing from the top or bottom of the stripsinstead of the sides of the strips. Ithink that is not the wayto do them. Either that or I'm doing them wrong and you and everyone else isright(wouldn't be the firsttime.)......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than awaterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck",1899. On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, dpizza wrote: List and Darryl, If I build nodeless and manage to plane the feather-edge of myscarvesto0.008, Can I just add 0.008 to my taper and plan on removing thatmuchwhenI sand away the enamel ?? I am currently working on my first two rods and would considermyself"wetbehind the ears" so I hope this question isn't a "dumb question". TIA David BobMaulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com-- =====================_1372716==_.ALT I think you are right Frank, if I am interpreting you correctly.I make myscarfs from right to left (or left to right) as you look at thestrip from the top. I put them in the splice block with the enamel eitherfacingtowards me or away from me. I then plane off one side into a pointthat corresponds to the spliceblocks rise. from top like this: / / / Does that make sense?Bob At 01:19 PM 4/12/00 -0500, you wrote:David, aremaking the scarves by planing from the top or bottom of the strips wayto do them. Either that or I'm doing them wrong and you and everyone else isright(wouldn't be the firsttime.)......................................................................Frank "...a cheerful comrade is better than a waterproof coat and a "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, dpizza wrote: scarves to much when myself "wet question". BobMaulucci==================================================downandacross.com bob@downandacross.com --=====================_1372716==_.ALT-- from bob@downandacross.com Wed Apr 12 16:06:32 2000 from bob@downandacross.com) from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: scarf joints --=====================_1574606==_.ALT If you glue up inside the rod section by planing top to bottom on each stripinstead of left to right (or R to L), you are gluing power fibers to the weakpith part on one of the strips.Wouldn't that make a bad joint? Seems to me inmy two nodeless rods,that the power fiber to power fiber glue up is whatgive the strips theirstrength.My .02, Bob Mauluccidownandacross.combob@downandacross.com-- =====================_1574606==_.ALT If you glue up inside the rod section by planing top to bottomon each stripinstead of left to right (or R to L), you are gluing powerfibers to the weakpith part on one of the strips. Wouldn't that make a bad joint? Seems to mein my two nodelessrods,that the power fiber to power fiber glue up is whatgive the strips theirstrength.My .02, BobMaulucci==================================================downandacross.com bob@downandacross.com --=====================_1574606==_.ALT-- from wiljette@nmia.com Wed Apr 12 16:10:44 2000 (Smail-3.2.0.106 1999-Mar-31 #3 built 1999-Apr-19) Subject: Re: Preserving Spar Varnish Randall: Bloxygen works great for oil based varnish and polyurethane. Igot acan for about $10.00 from Woodworker's Supply (1-800-853-9663).Onecan is enough for over 70quarts. Will Subject: Re: Preserving Spar Varnish There is a product available that you can spray inside the can topreventpremature jelling. I think it is called Bloxygen or something of thesort.Ihave seen it at woodcraft stores but never tried it. I have also hadtheparticle issue and resolved it by thinning and filtering thru an oldpairofpanty hose. Worked alright for me.Good luck, RandallGregory(NWArkansas)----- Original Message -----From: Ralph MacKenzie Spar Varnish Boy - AMEN to *that* problem! My first spar, Pratt & Lambert R7,gotthicklike jello across the top - maybe an inch thick or so, (andtheremainderinthe can as well). I thinned it with paint thinner, and thatseemed tohold littlebottles that I keep aside for wraps got jelled across the top,includingtheone with thinner. Mixed about 50/50 with a differentmanufacturer'sspar(AceHardware) and some mineral spirits. The resultseemed to be workingwellandstaying liquid, but I had some othercontamination problems with little"grits" in my finish, so I filtered through apaper coffee filter.AfterIdid that, the same batch that had been working welljelled over at thetopinthe tube, *again*. I have now really laced itwithboththinner and mineral spirits. It's probably a little too thin, butIfigured Ican build up with multiple coats easier than wrestle with the jellyatthispoint. I have not had similar problems with my other tube that haspolyurethaneinit. Seemed to be a lot easier to work with, but if there's a magicbulletofsomekind to prevent the jelling, I'll be very interested, too, sinceI'dlikethe option ofeither. TIA, here too. mac Ed Riddle wrote: I use a Drip Tube and have been recently been storing the Spar in adiscarded(plastic?)gallon milk container. Prior to first use, acouplemonths ago, Ithinned it 10% with mineral spirits. Today, I found thatithas thickened up andhas some "globs" in it. I added more mineralspiritsand filtered with a conicalpaper paint filter and that seemed to workforthe moment. Any suggestionson how I might better preserve unusedportionbased on what I'm doingnow?Thanks in advance.Ed from dpfitch@collins.rockwell.com Wed Apr 12 16:24:07 2000 gatekeeper.collins.rockwell.com via smap (V4.2) 5-20-1999)) id 862568BF.007582E4 ;Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:23:32 -0500 Subject: RE: Preserving Spar Varnish How I love this list. Enlightenment and entertainment, both for free! DPF "Haftel, Dennis J, CSCIO" on 04/12/2000 03:10:50 PM Please respond to dhaftel@att.com Subject: RE: Preserving Spar Varnish If you're blowing carbon monoxide from your lungs you have biggerproblemsthan lumpy varnish! I think youmeant carbon dioxide. The onlyproblemwith that is that you're also exhalingoxygen. Dennis -----Original Message----- edriddle@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Preserving Spar Varnish you can also use a straw and blow carbon monoxide from your lungs intothecan, it's a lot cheaper than canned gas. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Apr 12 16:54:43 2000 Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:54:35 -0700 "Flyfish @ mailing list" Subject: Tony Spezio --------------45FFA616493C0C8B3BC3B269 Friends,I got the following message from Tony Spezio a few minutes ago.Please keep our old friend Tony and hisfamily in your thoughts orprayers. Thanks,Harry Boyd Harry,I got home from the hospital late yesterday. Shortly after that we got acall that my 11month old greatgrandson in OKC hadfallen and hit his head. We lost him thismorning.I will not be able to travel to be there. Please say a prayer forFrankie.Can't talk more right now.Tony --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ --------------45FFA616493C0C8B3BC3B269 Friends, few thoughts or prayers. I got home from the hospital late yesterday. Shortly after that we got acall that my 11month old greatgrandson in OKC had I will not be able to travel to be there. Please say a prayer for Tony --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ --------------45FFA616493C0C8B3BC3B269-- from petermckean@netspace.net.au Wed Apr 12 17:41:28 2000 IAA26179; Subject: Re: Need help fast What IS a fisheye?Peter Mckean----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Need help fast Harry,I've only had a fisheye problem once, but this is what I changed inmyprocess to correct it. I had used mineral spirits and paper towelstocleanbefore dipping. I switched to isopropyl alcohol and computerscreencleaningpaper cloths and wash my hands before starting. I take careto allow thesections to dry thoroughly before dipping. That doesn't take longas thealcohol evaporates fast.The theory was the mineral spiritscontainedsomekind of oil and I probably wasn't allowing the section to drycompletelybefore I dropped it into the tank. Haven't had a re- occurancesince.Winston Binney from petermckean@netspace.net.au Wed Apr 12 17:41:34 2000 IAA26209; , Subject: Re: Preserving Spar Varnish If you have any significant amount of carbon monoxide in your lungstoblowthrough a straw, then the preservation of life will tend to loom farlargerthan the preservation of spar varnish! :-)peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Preserving Spar Varnish you can also use a straw and blow carbon monoxide from your lungs intothecan, it's a lot cheaper than canned gas. from jmpio@nhbm.com Wed Apr 12 17:48:07 2000 (5.0.1459.74) Subject: RE: Need help fast A fisheye is a flaw in the finish. It looks like a tiny crater thatforms in thewet finish after you have carefully it. When brushing afinish, you will see it,give it another brush stroke, and it will justcome right back. This cycle cango on for ever until the finisherfinally becomes frustrated and shootssomething. -----Original Message-----From: petermckean PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Need help fast What IS a fisheye?Peter Mckean----- Original Message -----From: WinstonBinney Harry,I've only had a fisheye problem once, but this is what I changedinmyprocess to correct it. I had used mineral spirits and papertowelstocleanbefore dipping. I switched to isopropyl alcohol and computerscreencleaningpaper cloths and wash my hands before starting. I take careto allowthesections to dry thoroughly before dipping. That doesn't take longasthealcohol evaporates fast.The theory was the mineral spiritscontainedsomekind of oil and I probably wasn't allowing the section todrycompletelybefore I dropped it into the tank. Haven't had a re- occurancesince.Winston Binney from johnsabina@home.com Wed Apr 12 18:17:43 2000 0700 Subject: Heat Gun Recommendations I am assembling my equipment to begin building cane rods. I am not =findingmuch information on heat guns. What do you folks recommend? =Whatmake? model? features?, etc. John Sabina I am assembling my equipment to= etc. John =Sabina from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 12 18:20:34 2000 0300 Subject: Help to stop bleeding fingers Guys,here is a neat little trick I learned recently that I thoughtmight at leastinterest some on the list. To help stop the strip fromslipping, especially whenhogging off material in the roughing forms andinitial phases of final planing,cut a small strip of double sidedcarpet tape (the real sticky kind) right downinto the "V" and up ontothe sides behind the butt excess. This will give youlittle extra gripyou need. Remember to fold a little tab over at the end to aidinremoval of the tape ;^)Not a big deal but it seems to help!ShawnP.S. I alsowear a latex glove on my left hand! from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Wed Apr 12 18:52:51 2000 forRODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:51:34 Subject: RE: Help to stop bleeding fingers Another way to hold the strip in place is to use a lever-type clamp. Itholdsthe strip so securely that you do not need to touch it with your freehand.You can then focus on handling the plane perfectly level. Taketwo-threepasses, flip the strip, lower the clamp, and take the samenumberon theother side. Also, this allows you to use a larger, two-handed planeif you wish. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Help to stop bleeding fingers Guys,here is a neat little trick I learned recently thatI thoughtmight at leastinterest some on the list. To help stop the strip fromslipping, especially whenhogging off material in theroughing forms andinitial phases of final planing,cut a small strip of double sidedcarpet tape (the real sticky kind) right downinto the "V" and up ontothe sides behind the butt excess. This will give youlittleextra gripyou need. Remember to fold a little tab over at the end to aidinremoval of the tape ;^)Not a big deal but it seems to help!ShawnP.S. I alsowear a latex glove on my left hand! from rmoon@ida.net Wed Apr 12 19:18:29 2000 0000 Subject: Re: Help to stop bleeding fingers Bravo Shawn At last a convert to the latex glove guys. I'll give your carpet tape a try, if you promise not to talk abouthoggin' offwood again in my presence. I try to teach my students thatit is a no-no (i.e.do as I say not as I do!) Ralph from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Apr 12 19:32:30 2000 Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:31:54 -0300 Subject: Re: Help to stop bleeding fingers Er, ahhh, umm did I say hogging? I meant to say ever so gently whispingthosepesky shavings away ;^)Does it count that I get on top my bench, straddlemy forms, and ridemy block plane like one of those engineers on a miniaturetrain in thefinal planing? Or that I get my forehead right down on the bamboostrip soI can get a good eyeball on the level as I go down the strip? ManI'vegotten some wicked cuts to the forehead that way! Sacrifice the bod #:^(Just joking, I love the craft but not quitethat much. Besides you couldget a nasty groin cut that way if that stripever slipped!ShawnRalph W Moonwrote: Bravo Shawn At last a convert to the latex glove guys. I'll give your carpet tape a try, if you promise not to talk abouthoggin' offwood again in my presence. I try to teach my students thatit is a no-no (i.e.do as I say not as I do!) Ralph from oakmere@carol.net Wed Apr 12 19:35:42 2000 Subject: RE: Dip Tubes and Fish Eyes Harry: With the new tube (I assume plastic) often a lubricant is used forextrusionpurposes and it may contain silicone. I would suggest thatmaybeyou have acontaminated tube and need to clean the inside before doing thevarnish. Justa thought while reading the list. FrankFrank Paul, GreyFox2932 North Bayshore DriveSeneca, SC 29672fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work)oakmere@carol.net (home) from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Apr 12 19:50:55 2000 Subject: Re: scarf joints Functionally, I can't see how it makes much difference if you glue splices topto bottom or side to side, but if you glue them top to bottom, you are goingto end up with some seriously ugly glue lines on the rod flats. from martinj@aa.net Wed Apr 12 21:02:40 2000 Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:02:06 -0700 Subject: RE: Help to stop bleeding fingers I used this method after visiting Daryll whitehead for a chat and watchinghimplane a strip. Best trick I ever learned. I elevate the plane form on acouple of2 X 4 blocks so the clamp will fit on the underneath side of thesteel form. Iused to support it in the middle too but I found thatunnecessary after awhile. No more finger cots, no more cut fingers, morecontrol planing, nomore of the "left hand twisted accross the front of meand past the rightarm" either. Amen to that! -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Help to stop bleeding fingers Another way to hold the strip in place is to use a lever-type clamp. Itholdsthe strip so securely that you do not need to touch it with your freehand.You can then focus on handling the plane perfectly level. Taketwo-threepasses, flip the strip, lower the clamp, and take the samenumberon theother side. Also, this allows you to use a larger, two-handed planeif you wish. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Help to stop bleeding fingers Guys,here is a neat little trick I learned recently thatI thoughtmight at leastinterest some on the list. To help stop the strip fromslipping, especially whenhogging off material in theroughing forms andinitial phases of final planing,cut a small strip of double sidedcarpet tape (the real sticky kind) right downinto the "V" and up ontothe sides behind the butt excess. This will give youlittleextra gripyou need. Remember to fold a little tab over at the end to aidinremoval of the tape ;^)Not a big deal but it seems to help!ShawnP.S. I alsowear a latex glove on my left hand! from martinj@aa.net Wed Apr 12 21:12:15 2000 Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:12:08 -0700 Subject: RE: Need help fast You should not need much solder to seal the dip tube cap . If done thatwayyou would never introduce the flux into the path of the varnish. Mycoppertube has served me well for maybe 5 years now. -----Original Message----- DNHayashida@aol.com Subject: Re: Need help fast What kind of dip tube do you have? I recall Waynehaving a fisheye problemwhen he made a copper diptube. Apparently the soldering flux from solderingon the end cap contaminated the varnish.Darryl from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Apr 12 21:14:22 2000 Subject: Re: More on fisheyes (was Re: Need help fast) Harry and Chris,Actually it isn't the partridge but the pear tree that's theproblem. If you could get the partridge to roost in something like a hickory allyour problems would be solved and you wouldn't have to sing the 12 days ofChristmas.Sorry about the above-too much MEK I think.Regards,Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Apr 12 21:15:07 2000 Subject: Re: scarf joints Bob,In planing a scarf joint from inside out and turning the piece to do the other end you would still begluing power fibers to power fibers:__________________ ____________________\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \ \ \ \\_________________ \ \___________________ \ Regards,Hank.P.S. I believe scarfing the joint on its side gives a joint lessstressed than the other way from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Apr 12 22:03:01 2000 E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 13 Apr 200011:01:39 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) Subject: test test from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Apr 12 22:09:22 2000 E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 13 Apr 200011:08:06 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) Subject: FW: Sanding Enamel -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Sanding Enamel Frank,I think David is planing from top to bottom of the strips as I'vedone on the three rods made so far. They work fine.Having said that, I was reading "The Book" a month or twoback andrealised that Garrison used the side to side method. After aninitialmoment of panic during which I expected a lightning strike aspunishmentforheresy, I remembered that my rods hadn't reducedthemselves to kit formsofar and seemed unlikely to in the future. Eithermethod will work althoughI feel that Garrison's may have the edge onstrength. This is more of a gutfeeling than a properly researched opinionthough. As far as surface area although I must confess to being an arts graduate whose ability, oreveninclination, to crunch numbers is severely limited.I think Garrison'smethod makes it easier to get a perfectly leveljoint which I must admit ismore difficult when using top to bottomscarfs.I tend to get a minute lumpwhich has to be sanded flat well before finalplaning begins.Maybe I'll try theside to side method on rod number four and seehow I like it. At the end ofthe day I don't think it matters which methodyou use. The main thing is thatyou enjoy what you're doing, and if itworks for you, so much the better. Regards Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Sanding Enamel David, I don't quite understand your description. It sounds like you aremaking thescarves by planing from the top or bottom of the stripsinstead of the sides of the strips. Ithink that is not the wayto do them. Either that or I'm doing them wrong and you and everyone else isright(wouldn't be the firsttime.)......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than awaterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck",1899. On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, dpizza wrote: List and Darryl, If I build nodeless and manage to plane the feather-edge of myscarvesto0.008, Can I just add 0.008 to my taper and plan on removing thatmuchwhenI sand away the enamel ?? I am currently working on my first two rods and would considermyself"wetbehind the ears" so I hope this question isn't a "dumb question". TIA David from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Apr 12 22:09:44 2000 E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 13 Apr 200011:08:29 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) Subject: FW: scarf joints -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: scarf joints Hi Tom,I glue my top to bottom scarf joints with Titebond II and, providedI'mcareful, they are pretty hard to see on the finished rod. In fact somearedamned near impossible to find although maybe that's my pooreyesight. Having said that, I'm going to try the side to side method on mynext rod justto see if it's any better, and besides, I believe I shouldn'tknock it till I've triedit. It's great fun however you do it. Cheers Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: scarf joints Functionally, I can't see how it makes much difference if you glue splices topto bottom or side to side, but if you glue them top to bottom, you are goingto end up with some seriously ugly glue lines on the rod flats. from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Apr 12 22:10:10 2000 E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 13 Apr 200011:08:55 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) Subject: FW: scarf joints -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: scarf joints Hi Hank,I'm inclined to agree with you. Just don't ask me for ascientificexplanation. It's more of a gut feeling thing. Regards Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: scarf joints Bob,In planing a scarf joint from inside out and turning the piece to do the other end you would still be gluing power fibers to powerfibers:__________________ ____________________\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \ \ \ \\_________________ \ \___________________ \ Regards,Hank.P.S. I believe scarfing the joint on its side gives a joint lessstressed than the other way from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Apr 12 22:35:40 2000 Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:35:33 -0700 Subject: No More Fisheyes! Friends,I can't say that I've figured the problem out forsure, but at least Ihave solved it! Tonight I dipped acoat on the butt section of the problematicrod, and as faras I can tell there are no fisheyes.I changed varnish from PPG 77-5 to 77-4. I boughtnew sandpaper, and new steel wool. Ibought new towels. Icleaned with denatured alcohol instead of mineralspirits.Basically, I changed everything, and the problem went away.As per mypost this morning, my best educated guess is thatI got a bad can ofvarnish.Later, I'll try to solve the original problem. Fornow, I really needed toget a nice looking finish on thisrod so that I can get it to its new owner. Thanks again forall your help. Harry --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Apr 12 22:47:24 2000 E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 13 Apr 200010:06:45 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Sanding Enamel Frank,I think David is planing from top to bottom of the strips as I'vedone on the three rods made so far. They work fine.Having said that, I was reading "The Book" a month or twoback andrealised that Garrison used the side to side method. After aninitialmoment of panic during which I expected a lightning strike aspunishmentforheresy, I remembered that my rods hadn't reducedthemselves to kit formsofar and seemed unlikely to in the future. Eithermethod will work althoughI feel that Garrison's may have the edge onstrength. This is more of a gutfeeling than a properly researched opinionthough. As far as surface area although I must confess to being an arts graduate whose ability, oreveninclination, to crunch numbers is severely limited.I think Garrison'smethod makes it easier to get a perfectly leveljoint which I must admit ismore difficult when using top to bottomscarfs.I tend to get a minute lumpwhich has to be sanded flat well before finalplaning begins.Maybe I'll try theside to side method on rod number four and seehow I like it. At the end ofthe day I don't think it matters which methodyou use. The main thing is thatyou enjoy what you're doing, and if itworks for you, so much the better. Regards Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Sanding Enamel David, I don't quite understand your description. It sounds like you aremaking thescarves by planing from the top or bottom of the stripsinstead of the sides of the strips. Ithink that is not the wayto do them. Either that or I'm doing them wrong and you and everyone else isright(wouldn't be the firsttime.)......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than awaterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck",1899. On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, dpizza wrote: List and Darryl, If I build nodeless and manage to plane the feather-edge of myscarvesto0.008, Can I just add 0.008 to my taper and plan on removing thatmuchwhenI sand away the enamel ?? I am currently working on my first two rods and would considermyself"wetbehind the ears" so I hope this question isn't a "dumb question". TIA David from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Wed Apr 12 22:55:09 2000 Subject: Re: Preserving Spar Varnish O yea! That's my cars exhaust from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Apr 12 23:04:40 2000 E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 13 Apr 200010:53:12 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) bob@downandacross.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: scarfjoints Hi Tom,I glue my top to bottom scarf joints with Titebond II and, providedI'mcareful, they are pretty hard to see on the finished rod. In fact somearedamned near impossible to find although maybe that's my pooreyesight. Having said that, I'm going to try the side to side method on mynext rod justto see if it's any better, and besides, I believe I shouldn'tknock it till I've triedit. It's great fun however you do it. Cheers Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: scarf joints Functionally, I can't see how it makes much difference if you glue splices topto bottom or side to side, but if you glue them top to bottom, you are goingto end up with some seriously ugly glue lines on the rod flats. from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Apr 12 23:06:43 2000 E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 13 Apr 200010:57:32 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: scarf joints Hi Hank,I'm inclined to agree with you. Just don't ask me for ascientificexplanation. It's more of a gut feeling thing. Regards Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: scarf joints Bob,In planing a scarf joint from inside out and turning the piece to do the other end you would still be gluing power fibers to powerfibers:__________________ ____________________\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \ \ \ \\_________________ \ \___________________ \ Regards,Hank.P.S. I believe scarfing the joint on its side gives a joint lessstressed than the other way from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Apr 12 23:28:04 2000 Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:27:54 +0800 Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:27:51 +0800 Subject: Re: casting clubs & Rods as Onboard luggage in Aust & NZ --=====================_15906656==_.ALT Sorry, you ment clubs of people who want to cast rods? When I sawtheheading Ithought I had something to offer as I just returned last night from anemergency trip to Tasmania for the last 7 days where I cast severaloldHardybamboo rods. They were quite clublike but not in the same way :-) Anybody who knew I was going to Tassie and wanted a report, sorry,nothingtoreport. It is the dying few days of the season with a bit of a droughttomakethings worse. I did catch a few fish but the biggest was smaller thethesmallest I caught in NZ. In Tassie the big ones are in lakes and whowantstofish them?Did see a few Tassie Devils though and that's always goodfun. Unless I have to visit family again I'll be flying right over it to NZ forthefishing. Re. rods on airlines and cabbin baggage on Aust flights, forget it. I hatetosay why because of all the fuss I made with the NRA thing I mentionedacoupleof weeks back but the airlines don't want people thinking rod casesarerifles.PLEASE don't give me a hard time on that, I didn't make the rules.Ifound the same with some NZ flights I've made but not all. Seems todependonthe baggage clerk on the day.I use polypipe used for plumbing for my rodsand am yet to have a problem. Tony At 09:16 PM 4/6/00 -0400, you wrote: After Chris's post with a link to the Golden Gate Casting Club, Ihavebeenchecking these clubs and events out. Here's a site with some greatinfo:http://home.att.net/~slowsnap/index.htmI never realized it was so big adeal, although I must say that thereferences to tournaments in BFR didinterest me. (Bought at the flyshop, Iwas not a stiff!) Anyone in NY in a club?BobMaulucci==================================================downandacross.com bob@downandacross.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons instones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_15906656==_.ALT Sorry, you ment clubs of people who want to cast rods? When I sawtheheading I thought I had something to offer as I just returned last night from an emergency trip to Tasmania for the last 7 days where I castseveralold Hardy bamboo rods. They were quite clublike but not in the Anybody who knew I was going to Tassie and wanted a report, sorry,nothingto report. It is the dying few days of the season with a bit of adrought tomake things worse. I did catch a few fish but the biggest wassmaller the thesmallest I caught in NZ. In Tassie the big ones are inlakes and who wants tofish them?Did see a few Tassie Devils though and that's always good fun.Unless I have to visit family again I'll be flying right over it to NZ Re. rods on airlines and cabbin baggage on Aust flights, forget it. Ihate tosay why because of all the fuss I made with the NRA thing Imentioned acouple of weeks back but the airlines don't want peoplethinking rod cases arerifles. PLEASE don't give me a hard time on that,I didn't make the rules.Ifound the same with some NZ flights I've made but not all. Seems todependon the baggage clerk on the day.I use polypipe used for plumbing for my rodsand am yet to have aproblem. Tony At 09:16 PM 4/6/00 -0400, you wrote: After Chris's post with a link to theGoldenGate Casting Club, I have been checking th