Subject: Re: Titebond II glue George:Does the Pro Bond foam like the Gorilla Glue does? I have not used the GG week, that the foaming action can get messy though if it foams out of the reel seat cavity.Are these glues the same thing?Bob At 08:30 AM 5/21/00 -0500, you wrote: poly-u yet. It has a nice working time, sets fairly fast, and it's hard tosee any glue line. So far I've used it to re-glue separated and brokensections, in restoration, setting ferrules and reel seats, as well asrepairing cork grips. GMA Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun May 21 09:10:55 2000 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Sun, 21 May 2000 08:57:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Titebond II glue Yes the ProBond does foam, due to water being its catalyst. You alwayswetthe surfaces before applying the glue. I find that most of the foamingoccurs within the first 20 min. or so, and wiping it away does no harm tothe joints. The reel seat I installed had a "breather hole", and all thefoaming exited there. I just wiped it away, and it stopped after about 15min's.. When gluing up separations, I double wrapped, and wiped away the foaminguntil it stopped. I then let them set over night. The next day, I removedthe wrapping cord, and after 24 hours, any excess scraped away easily. Abroken butt section of a Heddon casting rod is virtually invisible, afterscraping and a light sanding. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Titebond II glue George:Does the Pro Bond foam like the Gorilla Glue does? I have not used the GG week, that the foaming action can get messy though if it foams out ofthereel seat cavity.Are these glues the same thing?Bob At 08:30 AM 5/21/00 -0500, you wrote: poly-u yet. It has a nice working time, sets fairly fast, and it's hardtosee any glue line. So far I've used it to re-glue separated and brokensections, in restoration, setting ferrules and reel seats, as well asrepairing cork grips. GMA Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from bob@downandacross.com Sun May 21 11:18:48 2000 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: Polishing Poly Finishes I picked up some 3M Perfect-It polish today and want to use it to polish some rods done in MinWax Helmsmen poly spar varnish. I wonder:1. Will the finish dull? How do I keep it uniform if it does?2. How long does the finish have to set first? I will try on a rod several months old first, but I have some freshly varnished rods in the drying cabinet as I write. (89* or so).3. Any tips? Thanks,Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sun May 21 11:22:07 2000 Subject: Re: Titebond II glue Bob, On restorations I like the "foaming" for setting ferrules. It tends toexpand the glue and fill the small voids that unavoidably form when youreset a ferrule on a station that is worn and abused. Like GMA says, thestuff works wonders in repairs of delams as well. -Doug At 09:52 AM 5/21/2000 -0400, bob maulucci wrote:George:Does the Pro Bond foam like the Gorilla Glue does? I have not used the GG week, that the foaming action can get messy though if it foams out of the reel seat cavity.Are these glues the same thing?Bob At 08:30 AM 5/21/00 -0500, you wrote: poly-u yet. It has a nice working time, sets fairly fast, and it's hard tosee any glue line. So far I've used it to re-glue separated and brokensections, in restoration, setting ferrules and reel seats, as well asrepairing cork grips. GMA Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun May 21 11:54:09 2000 Subject: Re: Polishing Poly Finishes In a message dated 5/21/0 4:23:12 PM, bob@downandacross.com writes: Bob - I have used the stuff on tung oil spar only, but I think your results will be similar. The stuff produces a bright polish. You can sand away any defects with 2000 grit paper, and then polish the section back to glossand blend it in with the rest of the finish. It's good stuff.I usually wait at least two weeks. from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun May 21 11:55:13 2000 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Sun, 21 May 2000 11:56:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Polishing Poly Finishes I plan to try polishing poly-u soon, but haven't yet. If Gorham's SilverPolish won't do it, I know of nothing with a finer grit. I'm going to wait acouple of weeks min. before I try it. If I can even find real "old style" spar varnish again, I'll wait at least amonth, with it drying at an elevated temp. ! My PHY's, done in the early'50's are still perfect. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Polishing Poly Finishes I picked up some 3M Perfect-It polish today and want to use it to polishsome rods done in MinWax Helmsmen poly spar varnish. I wonder:1. Will the finish dull? How do I keep it uniform if it does?2. How long does the finish have to set first? I will try on a rod severalmonths old first, but I have some freshly varnished rods in the dryingcabinet as I write. (89* or so).3. Any tips? Thanks,Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from DNHayashida@aol.com Sun May 21 12:42:39 2000 Subject: Soaking a culm before splitting Tried soaking a culm before splitting, hoping that it might help inkeeping a split straight. It didn't. Did keep the number of splintersdown though.Darryl from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Sun May 21 12:49:26 2000 Subject: Re: ******WARNING NEW VIRUS****** 4CFFA7AC170310FE5701E8E8" --------------4CFFA7AC170310FE5701E8E8 Update.... The new name is VBS_NEWLOVE.A danny Martin Jensen wrote: This virus can change the subject name and the attachment name. Itpicks a name from the infected users recent documents list so everymachine it infects can send the virus along with a new name. MartinJensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu TwangSent: Friday, May 19, 2000 2:06 AM Subject: ******WARNING NEW VIRUS******A new virus have arrived! It is similar to ILOVEYOU, but more powerful. The wormspreads itself via the address book,and it send itself to all an the book. The subject is "Servus Alter!" and the name of the virusis "South Park" danny --------------4CFFA7AC170310FE5701E8E8 Update.... The new name is VBS_NEWLOVE.A danny Martin Jensen wrote: virus can change the subject name and the attachment name. It picks aname from the infected users recent documents list so every machine it infectscan send the virus along with a new Jensen -----OriginalMessage-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf OfDanny TwangSent: Friday, May 19,20002:06 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject:******WARNING NEWVIRUS******A new virus have arrived! It is similar to ILOVEYOU, but more powerful. The worm spreads itselfvia the address book,and it send itself to all an the book. virus is "South Park" danny --------------4CFFA7AC170310FE5701E8E8-- from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Sun May 21 12:52:08 2000 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: A Question in Theory What about the damp You get in the blank.....? danny Seth Steinzor wrote: I would have to say that the main source of crookedness is bamboo, justasin furniture-making the main source of warping is wood. Its inherent inthematerial. If you handle it properly you minimize the problem. By theway,I just discovered that heating your glued blank over a steaming teakettlewhile applying gentle but firm corrective pressure is a great way toremovelong twists and sweeps. About 30 seconds of this and then remove itfromthe steam and hold it while it cools and presto - nice and straight. Makesme wonder why I bothered buying a heat gun. -----Original Message-----From: BambooRods@aol.com [SMTP:BambooRods@aol.com]Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 11:07 PM Subject: A Question in Theory Straightening! What is the main source of "crooked" sections? Is thelargest villain the binder? If we make sections that are planedproperlydoes the problem arise with inconsistent pressure on glace? Poorlyhungafter wrap? Thoughts? from Kmnoon@aol.com Sun May 21 13:20:34 2000 Subject: Help Hi, Thomas Penrose suggested I contact you. My brother has a cane rod that needs a new ferrule joint. He lent it outand it was returned jammed and broken. The rod has the following markings. Sewell N.Dutton and SonGreenfield, MassGenuine Tonkin1200 I am not fish or work on fishing equipment (my forte is restoring old firearms) so I need to turn to others for this project. If anyone can suggest someone to do the work I would appreciate the info. Thanks Kevin from Dean_Burrill@McAfee.com Sun May 21 14:06:19 2000 21 11:37:18 2000 -0700 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: Mystery rod Don,You've received good advice here, this rod is probably not a Divine,though it could be easily mistaken for one. (Notice I didn't close the doorof possibility completely as Divines continue to surpise me in theirvariety.) In addition to the points Bob Nunley brought up, Divines rarelyhave a winding check...only two models that I know of used one. To see agood close-up of Divine ferrules and reel seats, check my site atwww.burrill-ltd.com/divine. The typical wood real seat used by Divinehastwo distinct step ups to the grip, and as stated they are mortised so thereis not a foot pocket as on your rod. As Mr. Easton mentioned, EVERY post1900 Divine rod has a serial number stamped on the reel seat somewhere.Your rod has Perfection tip tops which first appear on Divines around1923,so the serial number would most likely begin with an R followed by 4numbers. They can be difficult to see at times so look carefully. The onlyexception to this rule that I've found are the Beaty reel seats. These wereall metal reel seats that Granger fans would recognize immediately. Thetypical Granger internal screw uplocking seat is almost an exact copy.There is also a scan of a Beaty on the site mentioned. I guess we haven't helped you much in identifying your rod, but itwas very fun to discuss. If your rod does have a serial number...would yoube interested in selling?? ;^) -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Mystery rod Don,Looking at the ferrules, I would say they are definitely Divineferrules, much like the model he started using in the mid 19"teens". Thegaudy signature wraps and the excess of intermediates is also typical of aFred Divine rod. Only thing that has me puzzled is that I can't find, inany of my books, reel seat hardware like is used on this rod. It is veryreminiscent of the Beaty reel seats, which Divine used, but not quite likeany of his I have seen... That doesn't mean it isn't a divine reel seathardware, but if it is, it's just some that I have never come across. Therope knurling you described, and what I can tell of it in the picture, isn'ttypical of Divine. He did do a lot of rope knurling on his reelseathardware, but usually the hardware was rounded, not squared in the areaknurled, and typically, the band was much longer than on this rod. The reelseat filler? Yep, that also is very Divine-ish. He commonly turned anincreased diameter on his reel seat fillers. Only problem I have with thisfiller is that every Divine wood reel seat I have ever seen was mortised.Not saying that he never made an unmortised wood filler, but I have justnever seen one, and can't find any reference to one.One last thing... The cork grip. Definitely not typical of a Divinerod. He did make many rods with full wells, most were cigar, but everydivine rod I have ever seen with a wood filler where the filler was turnedlarger at the grip end, the grip was turned down to meet blend into thewoodfiller.My conclusion.... Hell if I know! That was lots of help, huh. I wouldguess that you might have a Divine rod that has had the reelseat & gripreplaced on it. Later,Bob-----Original Message----- Subject: Mystery rod Folks, Want to help me with ID'ing this rod? I can't match it with any of myproduction rod knowledge. The reelseat is not like any Montague, Heddon,H-I,South Bend or Granger that I've ever seen. Take a look the last rod on my (new ) site --> http://hometown.aol.com/canerods/Donhome.html Thanks, Don Burns PS - If anyone is attending Grayrock and needs parts for a rodrestoration,let me know and I'll bring some "stuff". from RMargiotta@aol.com Sun May 21 15:14:06 2000 Subject: Re: Payne #214 Parabolic Taper Marty: The 7'9" Parabolic came in two sizes: a 3 3/4 oz. and a 4 1/8 oz. Do you know which one this is? Also, where exactly is the "00" buttmeasurement on the taper you provided. Thanks. --Rich from petermckean@netspace.net.au Sun May 21 17:54:12 2000 Subject: Dickerson 8015 Guide & Guide Special boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFC3CA.AB0F9B00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFC3CA.AB0F9B00 I am building a rod for my 21 year old son, who may not use it very =much, but could well try it against Northern Australian saltwater =species if he uses it at all.It would appear when catering to that age =group that some genital mirroring is necessary if they are to accept a =rod; so something powerful, heavy and stiff would seem to be a given.Does anyone have any experience of the 2 Dickerson rods mentioned here. =I had pretty well decided on the guide special, but looking at the =tapers and the stress curves makes me wonder whether the Guide may not=be the better rod, and not sacrifice any of the brute force.Peter ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFC3CA.AB0F9B00 I am building a rod for my 21 year old= saltwater species if he uses it at all.It would appear when catering to = group that some genital mirroring is necessary if they are to accept a = something powerful, heavy and stiff would seem to be a =given.Does anyone have any experience of the= rods mentioned here. I had pretty well decided on the guide special, but = at the tapers and the stress curves makes me wonder whether the Guide = the better rod, and not sacrifice any of the brute force.Peter ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFC3CA.AB0F9B00-- from horsesho@ptd.net Sun May 21 18:10:03 2000 0000 (204.186.33.5) Subject: Re: Payne #214 Parabolic Taper Hi Rich, The hanging tag says 4oz. Station 00 on the butt section wastaken as close to the female ferruleas possible. The rod had a couple missing wraps so I miked at those pointsand on the varnish right adjacentto it and the varnish at those points was .003" thick so I deducted thatmeasurment from my readings. Thereadings are an average across three flats which on a Payne are prettymuch within .001". Best, Marty Marty: The 7'9" Parabolic came in two sizes: a 3 3/4 oz. and a 4 1/8 oz. Do youknow which one this is? Also, where exactly is the "00" buttmeasurement onthe taper you provided. Thanks. --Rich from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun May 21 18:16:15 2000 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Sun, 21 May 2000 18:17:23 -0500 Subject: Cross rod numbering I have two Cross single builts, and one has a number near the butt ferrule,that is partly faint. Does anyone know how these rods were numbered ?Unlikethe Double Built's from So. Bend, these have nothing near the grip, to tellwhat they are, or line size. The number looks like it might be 8652, or8252, but the first two are very faint. Anyone have any data on these ?Therod is just under 9', at 8'- 11.5", and the tips are full length. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Dickerson 8015 Guide & Guide Special I am building a rod for my 21 year old son, who may not use it very much,but could well try it against Northern Australian saltwater species if heuses it at all.It would appear when catering to that age group that somegenital mirroring is necessary if they are to accept a rod; so somethingpowerful, heavy and stiff would seem to be a given.Does anyone have any experience of the 2 Dickerson rods mentioned here. Ihad pretty well decided on the guide special, but looking at the tapers andthe stress curves makes me wonder whether the Guide may not be thebetterrod, and not sacrifice any of the brute force.Peter from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun May 21 18:20:57 2000 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Sun, 21 May 2000 18:22:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Dickerson 8015 Guide & Guide Special I'd go with the PHY Texas General, or his Parabolic #11. I have a #11, andcan supply the measurements. It's a 9.5', while the T.G. was 8.5'. The T.G.is in the archives as a 9.5', but the two I had were both 8.5'. GMA GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Dickerson 8015 Guide & Guide Special I am building a rod for my 21 year old son, who may not use it very much,but could well try it against Northern Australian saltwater species if heuses it at all.It would appear when catering to that age group that somegenital mirroring is necessary if they are to accept a rod; so somethingpowerful, heavy and stiff would seem to be a given.Does anyone have any experience of the 2 Dickerson rods mentioned here. Ihad pretty well decided on the guide special, but looking at the tapers andthe stress curves makes me wonder whether the Guide may not be thebetterrod, and not sacrifice any of the brute force.Peter from hartzell@easystreet.com Sun May 21 19:11:46 2000 RAA09800 Subject: B.B. Beegle Anyone:I would be interested in knowing more about a rodmaker namer B.B.Beegle who made a 7'- 4 weight rod for the Trout Unlimited 25thAnniversary auction that sold for circa 600 dollars? Any info would beappreciatedEd Hartzell from darrell@rockclimbing.org Sun May 21 20:11:16 2000 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: Folsum #1615 (Heddon)Wraps Most of the #14's I've seen have a rolled welt and the #20's hand a betterHW design. But with private label rods, anything is possible. Darrell-----Original Message----- Easton Subject: Re: Folsum #1615 (Heddon)Wraps At 10:16 AM 5/19/2000 EDT, Canerods@aol.com wrote:The #1515 is listed in the Sinclair Heddon book as being the same as aHeddon#14 and sold for $15. Heddon #14's have chinese red wraps with/withoutblacktipping depending upon mfg. era. Some #14's had wood reelseats. I assume that a #1615 is of the same quality level, but don't see itlisted. Don Burns Don, Looking at Sinclairs book I pegged this as being a #20 but with bright NSRW ferrules instead of the GM NS HW feuurles on the #20. Except for theferrules this rod looks a lot like my #34 Peerless. It is a 9' 2F and castsa #5-6 Wulff TT like a champ! Thanks,-DougDoug EastonTonawanda, NY from channer1@rmi.net Sun May 21 21:04:27 2000 Subject: Re: Polishing Poly Finishes TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 5/21/0 4:23:12 PM, bob@downandacross.com writes: some rods done in MinWax Helmsmen poly spar varnish. >> Bob - I have used the stuff on tung oil spar only, but I think your resultswill be similar. The stuff produces a bright polish. You can sand awayanydefects with 2000 grit paper, and then polish the section back to glossandblend it in with the rest of the finish. It's good stuff.I usually wait at least two weeks. Tom(and Bob);I use Perfect-It II rubbing compound on Man-O-War and it works great, Ionly wait 3 days, that seems to be long enough, I haven't had anyproblems yet. I have found that if you dip after the guides are wrappedand you have to get a blemish off a wrap, then you need to follow therubbing compound with Finese-It II Machine polish. Rubbing out wrapsleaves them almost frosty looking and dull, the machine polish wil bringback the freshly-dipped shine .John from channer1@rmi.net Sun May 21 21:04:33 2000 Subject: 8'6" 4 wt. Guys;Well, the fly shop has got me into it this time! They took a n order foran 8'6" 4 wt. for me, without bothering to ask if I could make onefirst. Unfortunately, I don't have a taper for one of these, if anyonehas one they could reccommend, I would sure appreciate it. I wouldrather make a proven taper than experiment on a customer's rod. Thanks abunch in advance John from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Sun May 21 21:39:30 2000 E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 22 May 200010:34:54 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) Subject: RE: Titebond II glue Hi Marty,I have two nodeless rods on which I used Titebond II for thescarf joints although the completed splines are glued up with Resourcinol.They are holding up OK so far. The only change I plan on making to my rodconstruction is to make side to side scarfs instead of top to bottom as Ihave so far. Best regards Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: Titebond II glue Hi all, Anybody out there using Titebond II wood glue to glue upsplines. I have been using URAC for 12 years and would like to try theTitebond II "slow set" on the next rod.I would like to know how it hasheld up.Looking for a non toxic glue alternative. Best, Marty from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sun May 21 22:44:03 2000 Subject: RE: Water content of bamboo No one on this list (at least during the two years or so I've been aregular) has produced anything other than personal opinion on this issue.That includes those like me who think the moisture issue is overblown.Butwe DO have the experience of using very crisp rods made from soakedstrips,or finished with a non-waterproof finish. If moisture was as important asitis claimed, we would all have regular experiences with limp rods, becauseeven well varnished rods gradually adjust to ambient moisture. This wouldbeespecially common in places like Missouri, where I live. Well, that's myopinion, but there are others who disagree. My point has been that there isno cause for self-righteousness (as in "I'd never try such a thing becauseI'm too good a craftsman") in the absence of systematic data, which noneofus have. -----Original Message----- Subject: Water content of bamboo I would really like to know whether there is any substance to therecurrentworries about moisture content of bamboo at various stages of processing.I have just started soaking cane for the rough preliminary planing stage,and am amazed at the time and effort it saves. My wife's father, who alsomakes his own rods, is appalled - he won't even leave his pieces out in theshed after planing, but lovingly carries them inside where it's warm sotheydon't acquire any moisture! I mean, this stuff is designed to move water,and surely we can never desiccate it to any accurate level, so how fussy istoo fussy?Peter from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sun May 21 22:44:06 2000 Subject: RE: Titebond II glue Here's what I know after limited experience. I've been using Titebond IIExtend (the slow stuff) on the 15 or so rods I've made so far. My onlyproblems involved scarf joints (I do nodeless rods) where the seambetweenthe pieces was visible. Sometimes you can see the joint because of slightdifference in color from one piece to another, but I'm talking about avisible dark line along the joint. I've had no other trouble, and thatincludes systematically breaking up two early rods to test the joints. Thebamboo broke before the glue joints (both in the scarf joints and thelongitudinal joints between splines), except for the condition mentionedabove. I've fished a couple of these rods pretty hard. I can't tell you howthey'll compare in 20 or 30 years to resorcinol, but titelbond is notexactly an untested new glue so I feel OK. I also know that some veryexperienced professional makers use it. -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 2:41 PM Subject: Re: Titebond II glue In a message dated 5/19/00 5:49:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time,horsesho@ptd.net writes: Hi all, Anybody out there using Titebond II wood glue toglue upsplines. I have been using URAC for 12 years and wouldlike to try theTitebond II "slow set" on the next rod.I would like toknow how it hasheld up.Looking for a non toxic glue alternative. Best,Marty Marty, I've used normal Titebond II for scarf repair joints and ithas held up quite well - as long as I don't squeeze all the glue out of thejoint when overwrapping with the string. Drying time is very fast and I don't know if I could glueall six strips of a fullllength section and wrap before setup. Can't help youwith the slow set stuff - haven't used it. Don Burns from briansr@point-net.com Sun May 21 22:53:14 2000 Subject: penta question Hi Bill ,Richard and any penta buildersIf I have a penta rod that mics out @ .17 at the ferrule station would yousuggest using a size 11 ferrule or round off corners and THEN mic theblank.Checked the archives and came up zero .TIA Brian from timklein@uswest.net Mon May 22 00:05:09 2000 Subject: Re: Titebond II glue A couple of quick questions: Wetting the surface? Do you mean you're wetting your strips immediatelybefore gluing and binding? Second - What is the heat tolerance of ProBond and Gorilla Glue type P.U.?Have you heat straightened glued blanks? Last - What is the heat tolerance of Titebond II? I know that the originalTitebond and other wood glues were very heat sensitive. Do regularTitebondII and the slow set formulation hold up O.K. to heat?---Tim "I'm proud to pay taxes in the United States; the only thing is, I could bejust as proud for half the money"- Arthur Godfrey ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Titebond II glue Yes the ProBond does foam, due to water being its catalyst. You alwayswetthe surfaces before applying the glue. I find that most of the foamingoccurs within the first 20 min. or so, and wiping it away does no harm tothe joints. The reel seat I installed had a "breather hole", and all thefoaming exited there. I just wiped it away, and it stopped after about 15min's.. When gluing up separations, I double wrapped, and wiped away thefoaminguntil it stopped. I then let them set over night. The next day, I removedthe wrapping cord, and after 24 hours, any excess scraped away easily. Abroken butt section of a Heddon casting rod is virtually invisible, afterscraping and a light sanding. GMA from rp43640@online-club.de Mon May 22 05:07:21 2000 Mon, 22 May 2000 12:06:38 +0200 (METDST) Subject: Re: Dickerson 8015 Guide & Guide Special I have the measurements of an #11 and unfortunately do not recall where Igotit from. But the length was given as 9'4.Would be nice to compare your measurements against it. Christian nobler wrote: I'd go with the PHY Texas General, or his Parabolic #11. I have a #11, andcan supply the measurements. It's a 9.5', while the T.G. was 8.5'. The T.G.is in the archives as a 9.5', but the two I had were both 8.5'. GMA GMA----- Original Message -----From: "petermckean" Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 5:49 PMSubject: Dickerson 8015 Guide & Guide Special I am building a rod for my 21 year old son, who may not use it very much,but could well try it against Northern Australian saltwater species if heuses it at all.It would appear when catering to that age group that somegenital mirroring is necessary if they are to accept a rod; so somethingpowerful, heavy and stiff would seem to be a given.Does anyone have any experience of the 2 Dickerson rods mentioned here.Ihad pretty well decided on the guide special, but looking at the tapersandthe stress curves makes me wonder whether the Guide may not be thebetterrod, and not sacrifice any of the brute force.Peter from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon May 22 05:47:12 2000 Mon, 22 May 2000 07:46:40 -0300 Subject: Re: 8'6" 4 wt. John,I have searched through my tapers and I don't have much in the orderof a 8'6" 4wt. I did find a Dickerson 8615 8'6" for 3wt and a LeonardTournament 8'0" 3pc for 3wt I am sure they would both handle a 4wtthough.The only other one that comes close is the Payne 200 8'0" for a 4 wt. Youcould stretch it using hexrod but if you were going to do that there areseveral other rods that would qualify. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.Most tapers I have for that length are at least 5 wt. Shawn channer wrote: Guys;Well, the fly shop has got me into it this time! They took a n order foran 8'6" 4 wt. for me, without bothering to ask if I could make onefirst. Unfortunately, I don't have a taper for one of these, if anyonehas one they could reccommend, I would sure appreciate it. I wouldrather make a proven taper than experiment on a customer's rod. Thanksabunch in advanceJohn from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue May 23 17:38:39 2000 e4NMcc110922 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Tue, 23 May 2000 17:25:24 -0500 Subject: Re: dressing ferrules I've now made a couple of ferrules, and I got them to fit pretty well,before installing them on the rod. I use a lap to get the male to the finalfit. I have a photo of how the lap looks if any would like to see it. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: dressing ferrules DarrinI just mounted a set the other day and it seemed like I had the sametrouble. You just have to be patient. When they do fit they do it sosneaky that they scare you and it is too easy to overdo it by gettingimpatient. I would avoid the 800 grit though. It is a little toomuch. I do some of my ferrule dressing by using a cloth wheel andjeweler's rouge. This is a dicey technique. The wheel can grab the rodshaft out of your hand and break it before you get up in the morning.Secondly you have to be careful and not build any grooves and hills onthe ferrule. Still it does a nice job. Be patient!!!Ralph from caneman@clnk.com Tue May 23 18:44:06 2000 e4NNi6112706 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com for ;Tue, 23 May 2000 18:39:50 -0500 Subject: Who Made It??? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A2_01BFC4E6.932EC020" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A2_01BFC4E6.932EC020 OK List,Who is the quad rod expert on the list? I just aquired a quad that =is a flamed rod, 3/2 8'10", No serial number, no makers name, but does =have "Featherweight" inked on the butt section. Look at these pictures =of it and see if maybe one of our list quad rodders made it or if =someone knows who did. I know absolutely nothing about the quads so any=help is appreciated. Pics are at =http://members.clnk.com/caneman/quadrod.htm Actually, kinda hope it's Thanks in advance,Bob ------=_NextPart_000_00A2_01BFC4E6.932EC020 OK List, aquired a quad that is a flamed rod, 3/2 8'10", No serial number, = name, but does have "Featherweight" inked on the butt = Look at these pictures of it and see if maybe one of our list quad = Actually, kinda hope it's by one of our list members... Thanks in advance,Bob ------=_NextPart_000_00A2_01BFC4E6.932EC020-- from CAIrvinerods@aol.com Tue May 23 19:10:57 2000 e4O0Av113316 Subject: 8' 6" for a 4 John, Here is the taper I promised. This is from Wayne cattanach. Works great.Tip Butt0 .075 45 .2025 .083 50 .21110 .098 55.21815 .113 60 .22920 .127 65 .23925 .141 70 .24530 .156 75 .25635 .169 80 .26840 .187 85 .27945 .202 90 .28850 .211 92-102 .288 HOPE YOU LIKE IT. Tight Lines, Chuck from ernie2@pacbell.net Tue May 23 19:27:34 2000 e4O0RX113857 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: Re: CP ferrules How do you get the ferrules to fit snug again after you remove thechrome?Ernie ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: CP ferrules I strip chrome most every day with muratic acid mixed 50/50 withwater. Itwill not affect brass at all, but really "gets after" chrome. I'd hold theferrule vertically in the solution, until it is cleaned down to brass. Dothis outside, and it fumes allot.GMA from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue May 23 19:48:02 2000 e4O0lu114247 Tue, 23 May 2000 21:47:50 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Who Made It??? boundary="------------469F3A4DC28AB6B51E229D9A" --------------469F3A4DC28AB6B51E229D9A Bob,I'm just speculating here but you might have a rod built by thelate John Irgens of Wisconsin. I'm no expert on the rod but it looks alot like the Irgens that I was looking at on E bay some time ago. I hadthe pictures saved somewhere but haven't been able to locate them. Thereare a few guys on here with Irgens rods so maybe they can correct me/back me on this one?Hope this is of some help, Shawn Bob Nunley wrote: OK List, Who is the quad rod expert on the list? I just aquired aquad that is a flamed rod, 3/2 8'10", No serial number, no makersname, but does have "Featherweight" inked on the butt section. Lookat these pictures of it and see if maybe one of our list quad roddersmade it or if someone knows who did. I know absolutely nothing aboutthe quads so any help is appreciated. Pics are athttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/quadrod.htm Actually, kinda hope it's --------------469F3A4DC28AB6B51E229D9A Bob, herebut you might have a rod built by the late John Irgens of Wisconsin. I'mno expert on the rod but it looks a lot like the Irgens that I was lookingat on E bay some time ago. I had the pictures saved somewhere but haven'tbeen able to locate them. There are a few guys on here with Irgens rodsso maybe they can correct me/ back me on this one? Hope this is of some help, ShawnBob Nunley wrote: flamed rod, 3/2 8'10", No serial number, no makers name, but does have of it and see if maybe one of our list quad rodders made it or if someone http://members.clnk.com/caneman/quadrod.htm --------------469F3A4DC28AB6B51E229D9A-- from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue May 23 19:56:14 2000 e4O0uE114497 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Reading, Pennsylvania Hi all,I will be flying from Nova Scotia, Canada to Reading, Pa.first week of June on temporary duty. I might just have a bit of sparetime and would like to fish a bit and visit Russ Gooding at GoldenWitch, George Mauer and any other people/places I can squeeze in. Idon't know the area, can someone tell me what the closest hot spotswould be and how close I would be to these people? Any othersuggestions.Thanks,Shawn Pineo from bob@downandacross.com Tue May 23 20:09:04 2000 e4O193114864 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: Bob's Quad Bob N.,How does that thing cast? The style looks familiar. I think Shawn may be right with his guess. Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from Rcolo@ix.netcom.com Tue May 23 20:18:44 2000 e4O1Ih115198 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Who Made It??? 9945072A752CDA77E022B4B7" --------------9945072A752CDA77E022B4B7 Hi Bob,Don't think it's John's. His light rods are very light like a leonardand the red wraps are more blood red. The one I have also has fittings from Bellinger. My quad has the wood rounded at the ferrule and a muchmore modern design at the handle. This looks like a older rod. I havea few Edwards quads and they are not similar also. Good luck....Rich Shawn Pineo wrote: Bob,I'm just speculating here but you might have a rod built bythe late John Irgens of Wisconsin. I'm no expert on the rod but itlooks a lot like the Irgens that I was looking at on E bay some timeago. I had the pictures saved somewhere but haven't been able tolocate them. There are a few guys on here with Irgens rods so maybethey can correct me/ back me on this one?Hope this is of some help, Shawn Bob Nunley wrote: OK List, Who is the quad rod expert on the list? I just aquireda quad that is a flamed rod, 3/2 8'10", No serial number, no makersname, but does have "Featherweight" inked on the butt section. Lookat these pictures of it and see if maybe one of our list quadrodders made it or if someone knows who did. I know absolutelynothing about the quads so any help is appreciated. Pics are athttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/quadrod.htm Actually, kinda hopeit's by one of our list members... Thanks in advance,Bob --------------9945072A752CDA77E022B4B7 Hi Bob, like Shawn Pineo wrote: herebut you might have a rod built by the late John Irgens of Wisconsin. I'mno expert on the rod but it looks a lot like the Irgens that I was lookingat on E bay some time ago. I had the pictures saved somewhere but haven'tbeen able to locate them. There are a few guys on here with Irgens rodsso maybe they can correct me/ back me on this one? Hope this is of some help, Shawn Bob Nunley wrote: flamed rod, 3/2 8'10", No serial number, no makers name, but does have of it and see if maybe one of our list quad rodders made it or if someone help http://members.clnk.com/caneman/quadrod.htmActually, kinda hope it's by one of our list members... Thanks inadvance,Bob --------------9945072A752CDA77E022B4B7-- from edriddle@mindspring.com Tue May 23 20:38:59 2000 e4O1cw115695 VAA06351; "Rodmakers" , Subject: Re: CP ferrules Good point Ernie, guess I'll limit removal to the non-fitting portion sincethat's the area that will benefit from the cosmetic redo and it won'tinterfere with the fit. Marty mentioned this as well.Thanks to all.Ed-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: CP ferrules How do you get the ferrules to fit snug again after you remove thechrome?Ernie ----- Original Message -----From: "nobler" Subject: Re: CP ferrules I strip chrome most every day with muratic acid mixed 50/50 withwater.Itwill not affect brass at all, but really "gets after" chrome. I'd holdtheferrule vertically in the solution, until it is cleaned down to brass. Dothis outside, and it fumes allot.GMA from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue May 23 20:46:16 2000 e4O1kG115917 "Kling, Barry W." Subject: RE: Water content of bamboo Tony -- Maybe the US Forest Svc tests showed that the woods were the samehardnessat the **same moisture content**. If that's the case, it's still possiblethat the heat treatment reduces the wood's tendency to absorb moisture(andsoften) compared to non-treated wood. Then of course we're using agrass....Do you have any idea where to find the USFS study? Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Water content of bamboo That's a good question. About two years back I suggested heating anddryingbeyond normaly possible at normal atmospheric temps like oven heattreatingcaused some kind of chemical change to take place that was basicaly nonreversable meaning even if the bamboo bacame wet again, once it driedoutit regained it's hardened "tempered" properties I used the example ofprehistoric people charing wooden spear points.I felt quite happy with this line of thought until John Zimney camealongand wrote that the US Forrest Service I believe, ran tests and foundthatthe application of heat in no way hardens wood beyond whatever hardnessitwould achieve by just naturaly drying.Now, if this is so, then why do non heat treated rods tend to take aset?If moisture can re enter the bamboo which it must in time the moisturecontent has to reach about the same levels bamboo not ever heat treatedwould be yet rods go for years and years without ill effect. So what'sthestory? Tony At 10:43 PM 5/21/00 -0500, Kling, Barry W. wrote:No one on this list (at least during the two years or so I've been aregular) has produced anything other than personal opinion on thisissue.That includes those like me who think the moisture issue is overblown.Butwe DO have the experience of using very crisp rods made from soakedstrips,or finished with a non-waterproof finish. If moisture was as importantas itis claimed, we would all have regular experiences with limp rods,becauseeven well varnished rods gradually adjust to ambient moisture. Thiswould beespecially common in places like Missouri, where I live. Well, that'smyopinion, but there are others who disagree. My point has been thatthere isno cause for self-righteousness (as in "I'd never try such a thingbecauseI'm too good a craftsman") in the absence of systematic data, whichnone ofus have. -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 5:09 AM Subject: Water content of bamboo I would really like to know whether there is any substance to therecurrentworries about moisture content of bamboo at various stages ofprocessing.I have just started soaking cane for the rough preliminary planingstage,and am amazed at the time and effort it saves. My wife's father, whoalsomakes his own rods, is appalled - he won't even leave his pieces out intheshed after planing, but lovingly carries them inside where it's warm sotheydon't acquire any moisture! I mean, this stuff is designed to movewater,and surely we can never desiccate it to any accurate level, so howfussy istoo fussy?Peter /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'. " - Yoda ('The Empire Strikes Back') /*************************************************************************/ from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue May 23 20:55:04 2000 e4O1t3116344 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Tue, 23 May 2000 20:41:45 -0500 "Ernie Harrison" ,"Rodmakers" Subject: Re: CP ferrules Yes, a plastic plug would seal off the inside of the female, and a goodplastic tape will protect the male mating surface. GMA----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Re: CP ferrules Good point Ernie, guess I'll limit removal to the non-fitting portionsincethat's the area that will benefit from the cosmetic redo and it won'tinterfere with the fit. Marty mentioned this as well.Thanks to all.Ed-----Original Message-----From: Ernie Harrison Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 7:27 PMSubject: Re: CP ferrules How do you get the ferrules to fit snug again after you remove thechrome?Ernie ----- Original Message -----From: "nobler" Subject: Re: CP ferrules I strip chrome most every day with muratic acid mixed 50/50 withwater.Itwill not affect brass at all, but really "gets after" chrome. I'd holdtheferrule vertically in the solution, until it is cleaned down to brass.Dothis outside, and it fumes allot.GMA from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue May 23 22:21:07 2000 e4O3L6117540 Tue, 23 May 2000 20:21:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Another Sad Day in GrayRock Wayne,Though I don't know Frank, I do know those who think highly of him. Pleaseassure his family that they are in our prayers. Harry Wayne Cattanach wrote: As I type this to share with those that know him - Frank Love - akaTheLove Bug lays comatose in the ICU of St Mary's hospital in GrayRock - heisbeing kept alive by several machines allowing time for his family togatheraround him - Frank had several massive heart attacks early this pastweekend - and his wishes were that he would not be maintained. So in afewshort hours Frank's destiny will be placed solely in God's hands. Rodmakersgather in GrayRock - the opening night picnic was always held at Frank'splace - the Whispering Pines Campgrounds - just down the dusty trailcalledFilo Drive - located along the Manistee RiverI will keep everyone posted --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from CAIrvinerods@aol.com Tue May 23 23:13:45 2000 e4O4Di118266 Subject: Rod ID Have a friend who has a James Reed rod with three tips, all seem to be ofa different taper. All have ring guides. I know that a Reed had a patent for ferrules but do not a James Reed, maybe a W. H. Reed 1885. Any ideas?Chuck from stpete@netten.net Tue May 23 23:52:00 2000 e4O4q0118828 Organization: none Subject: Got another phone call This is not serious rodmaking stuff, but I thought it a bit humorous. The guys at the local fly shop know I make rods. Every once in a whilethey have a good customer interested in rodmaking. I had given the OKto the two knowledgeable employees to give my name and number out,WITHDISCRETION, to people who were seriously interested in rodmaking. Afterall, when I got the fever to build, I had tried to talk with the one guyin town (at the time) who I heard was making his own rods. The guy wasstone cold silent. So, I made my rods - alone - with just this list,Wayne's book and The Book to guide me (thank you all so much!) The most recent phone call I got was from a guy who had cut a length ofsmall diameter cane from a neighbor's yard, dried it out over thesummer, wrapped guides on it and gave it a reel seat. No bull. AND, hewouldn't shut up. He just kept on and on about why this should work,and how it seemed to him... ARGHH! I wished him luck and told him wewere definitely on different tracks regarding rodmaking. Needless tosay, I went and had a talk with the guys at the shop. I have a standingoffer to conduct a one night lecture/demo on basic rodbuilding at theshop. They have yet to take me up on it, but no more calls have comein. Thinking back on my call to the stone cold silent maker, I must havebeen the guy who called directly after the cane pole wrapper. Rick from stpete@netten.net Wed May 24 00:10:44 2000 e4O5Ah119287 0500 Organization: none Subject: Rod/Taper Descriptions: Favorites One of the most difficult phases of rodmaking for me is deciding whichtaper I will make next. I know that the list regularly gets requests as the Southern Rodmakers Gathering (SRG) for the ability to try otherstapers and even some real, authentic classics. But for the most part, Ikind of rely on the 'word of mouth' on this list. I recall the "Top Twenty Five" taper discussion last year and thought itvery helpful. I'd like to start a variation of that discussion. Instead of just listing our favorite rod(s), why not describe the actionand best qualities of your favorite, or just an interesting rod that youlike. Such a discussion could be enormously helpful to those in thethroes of taper selection dilemas. I'll start it off. BTW, let's put the rod action in the subject line. Rick from stpete@netten.net Wed May 24 00:22:59 2000 e4O5Mw119565 0500 Organization: none Subject: Favorites: Payne 101 This is a rod that has been recommended by myself and by Harry Boyd onmore than one occassion. The Payne 101 is a 7'6", 5 wt rod. DennisHigham was gracious enough to share the taper with the list and I havecast his original Payne 101 at the SRG99. The original and the rod Imade were extremely similar in action. The 101 is a relatively fast rod. It has a smooth action that worksquite effectively into the butt of the rod as the casts get longer. This rod would be an excellent transition rod from graphite to bamboo. The Payne 101 is my current rod of choice when fishing the MidSouthtailwaters. I can throw a nice open loop when nymphing with weightedflies. It will throw a tight loop when needed. It fishes dries welland midges adequately. And it will throw a weighted bugger withauthority on those days that I get desperate for a fish. I'm likely toneed and use all of the above on my home waters in a days fishing. The 101 handles casts well from 15' to 60'. As you need more distance,it just keeps working the rod deeper and deeper into the butt and seemsto have an endless reserve of power. Rick C. from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Wed May 24 02:34:28 2000 e4O7YQ121235 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Oils`n hardner was A Question in Theory No secrets.... I got a test from a friend, working at a wood shop, the oil is made for hardwoodfloor. Its anatural product. I dont know what kind of hardner, but the oils is Chinesewood-,linseed-,sitrus oils. I called up the distrubutur, and he`s going to send me somemore testsand info. I`ll come back with more info and results of my test. regardsdanny Coffey, Patrick W wrote: what kind oils with what kind of hardeners if you don't mind telling. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Wed May 24 03:12:31 2000 e4O8CU121666 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Silk line varnish (Was: Reed Curry) I have no possibility to get tung oil nor Formby`s here in Norway, atleast have not had any luckso far.Will it be possible to use linseed oil instead of tung oil, and if,should it be boiled or raw? TIAdanny Before I tried Formby's (which works great) I tried mixing my ownsilk line varnish. After many different formulations, I had goodresults with 1/3 deodorized tupintine, 1/3 tung oil, and 1/3polyurethane varnish.Darryl from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Wed May 24 03:26:11 2000 e4O8QA121867 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Silk line varnish (Was: Reed Curry) BTW: What is "deodorized turpentine", is it natural or syntheticturpentine? TIAdanny DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: Before I tried Formby's (which works great) I tried mixing my ownsilk line varnish. After many different formulations, I had goodresults with 1/3 deodorized tupintine, 1/3 tung oil, and 1/3polyurethane varnish.Darryl from horsesho@ptd.net Wed May 24 05:14:52 2000 e4OAEp123109 0000 (204.186.33.26) Organization: ProLog Subject: Re: Who Made It??? Bob Nunley wrote: OK List,Who is the quad rod expert on the list? I just aquired a quadthat is a flamed rod, 3/2 8'10", No serial number, no makers name, butdoes have "Featherweight" inked on the butt section. Look at thesepictures of it and see if maybe one of our list quad rodders made itor if someone knows who did. I know absolutely nothing about thequads so any help is appreciated. Pics are athttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/quadrod.htm Actually, kinda hope it's Thanks in advance,Bob Hi Bob, I feel that rod is an Edwards Quadrate. I feel it was a 9'erthat was shortened , a new reel seat installed (featherweght was a seatmanufacturer) and some what appears to be miss matched ferrules. Marty from caneman@clnk.com Wed May 24 06:08:26 2000 e4OB8P124121 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com; Wed, 24 May 2000 06:04:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Got another phone call Richard,most of what I get are sales calls... Like "Hey, I've got some canegrowing in my back yard, and I'll sell it to you cheap.." or "I've got aclassic rod I'm selling for $750 and thought you might be interested. It'sa beautiful rod, a Mayflower and even has a wooden box..." and even once,"If I bring you the bamboo I got down in the river bottoms could you makemea rod out of it for a hundred or so..." The cane pole wrapper would be arefreshing break! *S* Later,Bob-----Original Message----- Subject: Got another phone call This is not serious rodmaking stuff, but I thought it a bit humorous. The guys at the local fly shop know I make rods. Every once in a whilethey have a good customer interested in rodmaking. I had given the OKto the two knowledgeable employees to give my name and number out,WITHDISCRETION, to people who were seriously interested in rodmaking. Afterall, when I got the fever to build, I had tried to talk with the one guyin town (at the time) who I heard was making his own rods. The guy wasstone cold silent. So, I made my rods - alone - with just this list,Wayne's book and The Book to guide me (thank you all so much!) The most recent phone call I got was from a guy who had cut a length ofsmall diameter cane from a neighbor's yard, dried it out over thesummer, wrapped guides on it and gave it a reel seat. No bull. AND, hewouldn't shut up. He just kept on and on about why this should work,and how it seemed to him... ARGHH! I wished him luck and told him wewere definitely on different tracks regarding rodmaking. Needless tosay, I went and had a talk with the guys at the shop. I have a standingoffer to conduct a one night lecture/demo on basic rodbuilding at theshop. They have yet to take me up on it, but no more calls have comein. Thinking back on my call to the stone cold silent maker, I must havebeen the guy who called directly after the cane pole wrapper. Rick from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Wed May 24 08:32:17 2000 e4ODWG126886 ,"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Oils`n hardner was A Question in Theory I`ll tell You all about it when I`ll get the info + and tried it out ona rod.At the moment all I know is what I've written, got the oil in a unmarkedbottle.... I do not know if its available abroad. regardsdanny Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: Thanks, Danny. Would be interested to hear about it. Best regards, Richard Tyree from jczimny@dol.net Wed May 24 08:57:24 2000 e4ODvN127803 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Silk line varnish (Was: Reed Curry) Use boiled linseed oil and add a little cobalt drier. You can get cobaltdrier at an art supply store.John Z Danny Twang wrote: I have no possibility to get tung oil nor Formby`s here in Norway, atleast have not had any luckso far.Will it be possible to use linseed oil instead of tung oil, and if,should it be boiled or raw? TIAdanny Before I tried Formby's (which works great) I tried mixing my ownsilk line varnish. After many different formulations, I had goodresults with 1/3 deodorized tupintine, 1/3 tung oil, and 1/3polyurethane varnish.Darryl from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Wed May 24 09:03:33 2000 e4OE3W128119 Subject: Shellac and varnish While watching my sections get pulled out of the varnish I started to readthe label on the Varmor R10 can. In the instructions it said: Never apply over shellac, sanding sealer, laquer sealer or over dirt... A few weeks back there was a discussion of shellac and french polish on abamboo rod. It doesn't sound like a base coat of shellac is a good idea. Paul from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Wed May 24 09:11:54 2000 e4OEBs128542 Subject: dip tip boundary="----=_NextPart_000_054A_01BFC569.0BF29B30" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_054A_01BFC569.0BF29B30 I built a dipping setup over the weekend. I used the 4rpm drying motor =that Cabellas sells to pull the sections out. I found that an acid brush =fits over the shaft on the motor and provides plenty of capacity of the =line (I used an old flyline). This setup extracted the section at =3-3/4"/min. Paul ------=_NextPart_000_054A_01BFC569.0BF29B30 I built a dipping setup over the = the 4rpm drying motor that Cabellas sells to pull the sections out. I = an acid brush fits over the shaft on the motor and provides plenty of = of the line (I used an old flyline). This setup extracted the section at = 3-3/4"/min. Paul ------=_NextPart_000_054A_01BFC569.0BF29B30-- from DNHayashida@aol.com Wed May 24 09:35:15 2000 e4OEZE129616 Subject: Using Stress Curves Stress curves are well worth the effort to learn forrodmaking, but first let me warn you that if you areexpecting the stress curve to look like the stresscurve in the Garrison - Charmichael book, it won't.Garrison drew an idealized stress curve, then triedto derive taper diameters from that. Basically he hadto use successive approximations starting from a straight taper and going through his calculations 2 to3 times to get his taper. He never (at least in thebook) went the other way, taking the resulting taperand calculated a stress curve straight from it. Once you begin to understand stress curves, many thingsbecome possible. You can profile an existing rod. You can measure a rod,then from the shape of the stress curve you can make afairly good guess as to what the action will be. To dothis you must have quite a few rods, actually cast themand look at their stress curves. You can design a new rod. With your knowledge of stresscurves and the resulting actions of the rods learned from the above step, you can design any length rod inany line weight and in as many pieces as you want, andget any action, slow, fast, parabolic or any other thatyou might have learned from casting a rod and lookingat it's stress curve. You can lengthen or shorten a rod and preserve the casting action. You can make the same rod for different line weights. You can make the same rod in different number of pieces.If you have a favorite rod that you want to take back-packing, just design it with the same stress curve, butin 4, 5, or ? pieces. Stress curves are a very useful tool, and can take yourrodmaking from just copying other people's tapers todesigning your own. Darryl from ernie2@pacbell.net Wed May 24 10:28:21 2000 e4OFSK109490 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: Re: Got another phone call Richard,I used to fish in the ocean with a 10 foot cane pole with taped on rodguides and reel. Made a heck of a good casting pole. Perhaps you shouldsee how well his pole casts a fly line. :-)Ernie ----- Original Message ----- The most recent phone call I got was from a guy who had cut a length ofsmall diameter cane from a neighbor's yard, dried it out over thesummer, wrapped guides on it and gave it a reel seat. No bull. AND, hewouldn't shut up. He just kept on and on about why this should work,and how it seemed to him... ARGHH! I wished him luck and told him wewere definitely on different tracks regarding rodmaking. Needless tosay, I went and had a talk with the guys at the shop. I have a standingoffer to conduct a one night lecture/demo on basic rodbuilding at theshop. They have yet to take me up on it, but no more calls have comein. Rick from kbuch@mail.stlnet.com Wed May 24 10:44:33 2000 e4OFiX110717 Subject: Re: Using Stress Curves Darryl, I have been interested in this topic, but do not know where to begin.Could you point me in a direction for resources so I can begin studyingup on stress curves? Regards, Kevin from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed May 24 11:13:40 2000 e4OGDb113508 Thu, 25 May 2000 00:13:32 +0800 Thu, 25 May 2000 00:13:27 +0800 Subject: Re: steam bending Rodmakers David, just reading this makes sence. Kiln dried wood was considered worse thanuseless and the non dried wood we used was probably not right off the sawas itwere but still not really what you'd call dried either but there's nosaying itwouldn't have worked better if it was a little more dry though I think thespecies of timber being used may have more than a little to do with that.I've also been thinking about how quickly steamed wood dried and it didseem tobe bone dry faster after being steamed than off cuts from the same piecethatweren't steamed. I guess all the heat held in the wood from steamingdrivesouta lot more moisture than goes in, in the form of steam. Still, I'd be a little careful of this guy if he's a boat builder. There was apopular saying used by cabinet makers working as boat builders at theyard Idid my time that went "cabinet makers work to the nearest 32nd whileboatbuilder's are happy to within the nearest boat" :-) Tony At 12:43 PM 5/22/00 -0400, David W. Smith, Ph.D. wrote: Tony, Yes, the man who wrote the article was a boatbuilder/restorer. Hearguesthat green wood is little better than kiln-dried wood when it comes tobending. It the kiln-dried situation, the entire piece of wood (fibers andcells) are dry and it is difficult to get the heat into the wood (you areagain correct, we're talking some large pieces, relative to bamboo).Recall,that the argument goes "the steam/moisture is used simply to transmittheheat because it is more efficient in carrying heat than air/dry heat. So,kiln-dried wood is both different (the fibers "solidify"/"temper") and apoorer conductor of heat (no moisture to carry it, so less efficient). He likewise argues that green wood is not the best (counterintuitiveindeed) wood for bending because, while you might get the heat ineasier/moreefficiently because of all the water, the cellular spaces are filled withwater (which can't compress with the added bending stresses) and cancauseeruption of the cell wall/fibers when the wood is bent, therebyweakeningthewood. I should remember this by now, but I seem to recall him suggesting awater content of ~20-24% as ideal for bending. dws. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'. " - Yoda ('The Empire Strikes Back') /*************************************************************************/ from briansr@point-net.com Wed May 24 11:33:07 2000 e4OGX6115973 0400 Subject: terrific news from Norway Organization: Hi folksThought I'd pass this on.Two guys on the Bjora caught fish of 19.5 and15.7kilos today and yesterday one of them caught a fish of 14 + kilos !!!Here in Quebec water is incredibly high stillCheers brian from DNHayashida@aol.com Wed May 24 11:34:45 2000 e4OGYi116113 Subject: Re: Using Stress Curves You should get Wayne's program - Hexrod. Where to getit was just discussed on this list, and get about 6 to10 bamboo rods. Or, as my case, since I had no accessto any bamboo rods, make them. Using the program, plotthe stress curves, and cast the rods. Get or make different types of rods. Fast, slow, parabolic. It might be better to look at the stress curves first andpick out rods that have markedly different stresscurves. Become intimately familiar with the way theycast and their stress curves. This is the only way I know of to learn about stress curves and how to applythem to rods. If you want to learn how to calculate stress curves,the Garrison - Charmichael book is where it all started. Darryl from BambooRods@aol.com Wed May 24 11:58:02 2000 e4OGw1117233 Subject: Using heat on Blonde Rods to Straighten Am ready to straighten my first (and more than likely my only) blonde rod. I am very happy with things so far but... Any advise on avoidingdiscoloration to the blank when using a heat gun to straighten? As pretty as it is Iwould hate to have brown sections or even sections that are darker.Doug hall from horsesho@ptd.net Wed May 24 12:22:44 2000 e4OHMh118380 0000 (204.186.33.228) Organization: ProLog Subject: Re: Using heat on Blonde Rods to Straighten BambooRods@aol.com wrote: Am ready to straighten my first (and more than likely my only) blonderod. Iam very happy with things so far but... Any advise on avoidingdiscolorationto the blank when using a heat gun to straighten? As pretty as it is Iwouldhate to have brown sections or even sections that are darker.Doug hallHi Doug, Never let it get hot enough to discolor! Always straighten barehanded with your fingers close to the spot that has to be made straightand roll the rod over the heat gun(like an old German cabinet maker oncetold me,"your fingers will heal but not the cabinet (rod)" The fibers inthe rod will soften way before the cane will darken. Good Luck, Marty from ernie2@pacbell.net Wed May 24 12:35:51 2000 e4OHZp118974 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: Re: Using Stress Curves Darryl,That was a very interesting discourse on stress curves. I hope you willtell us how you use them to change the line weight of an existing taper.Ernie ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Using Stress Curves Stress curves are well worth the effort to learn forrodmaking, but first let me warn you that if you areexpecting the stress curve to look like the stresscurve in the Garrison - Charmichael book, it won't.Garrison drew an idealized stress curve, then triedto derive taper diameters from that. Basically he hadto use successive approximations starting from astraight taper and going through his calculations 2 to3 times to get his taper. He never (at least in thebook) went the other way, taking the resulting taperand calculated a stress curve straight from it. Once you begin to understand stress curves, many thingsbecome possible. You can profile an existing rod. You can measure a rod,then from the shape of the stress curve you can make afairly good guess as to what the action will be. To dothis you must have quite a few rods, actually cast themand look at their stress curves. You can design a new rod. With your knowledge of stresscurves and the resulting actions of the rods learned from the above step, you can design any length rod inany line weight and in as many pieces as you want, andget any action, slow, fast, parabolic or any other thatyou might have learned from casting a rod and lookingat it's stress curve. You can lengthen or shorten a rod and preserve thecasting action. You can make the same rod for different line weights. You can make the same rod in different number of pieces.If you have a favorite rod that you want to take back-packing, just design it with the same stress curve, butin 4, 5, or ? pieces. Stress curves are a very useful tool, and can take yourrodmaking from just copying other people's tapers todesigning your own. Darryl from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed May 24 12:38:46 2000 e4OHch119133 Thu, 25 May 2000 01:38:36 +0800 Subject: Re: Using heat on Blonde Rods to Straighten Doug,just take it easy and it wont darken the bamboo. Tony At 12:56 PM 5/24/00 -0400, BambooRods@aol.com wrote:Am ready to straighten my first (and more than likely my only) blonderod.I am very happy with things so far but... Any advise on avoidingdiscoloration to the blank when using a heat gun to straighten? As pretty as it is Iwould hate to have brown sections or even sections that are darker.Doug hall /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'. " - Yoda ('The Empire Strikes Back') /*************************************************************************/ from DNHayashida@aol.com Wed May 24 13:42:42 2000 e4OIgf121169 Subject: Re: Using Stress Curves The short answer is simple. Change the line weight andkeep the stress values the same. The longer answer isthis could somewhat more of a problem because if thesoftware you are using doesn't allow you to enter stressnumbers, you have to tweak the diameters until you getthe same stress values.Darryl Subject: Using Stress Curves Stress curves are well worth the effort to learn forrodmaking, but first let me warn you that if you areexpecting the stress curve to look like the stresscurve in the Garrison - Charmichael book, it won't.Garrison drew an idealized stress curve, then triedto derive taper diameters from that. Basically he hadto use successive approximations starting from astraight taper and going through his calculations 2 to3 times to get his taper. He never (at least in thebook) went the other way, taking the resulting taper> and calculated astress curve straight from it. Once you begin to understand stress curves, many thingsbecome possible. You can profile an existing rod. You can measure a rod,then from the shape of the stress curve you can make afairly good guess as to what the action will be. To dothis you must have quite a few rods, actually cast themand look at their stress curves. You can design a new rod. With your knowledge of stresscurves and the resulting actions of the rods learned from the above step, you can design any length rod inany line weight and in as many pieces as you want, andget any action, slow, fast, parabolic or any other thatyou might have learned from casting a rod and lookingat it's stress curve. You can lengthen or shorten a rod and preserve thecasting action. You can make the same rod for different line weights. You can make the same rod in different number of pieces.If you have a favorite rod that you want to take back-packing, just design it with the same stress curve, butin 4, 5, or ? pieces. Stress curves are a very useful tool, and can take yourrodmaking from just copying other people's tapers todesigning your own. Darryl from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Wed May 24 13:47:19 2000 e4OIlH121428 12:03:25 PDT Subject: Re: Using Stress Curves I've used Frank Stetzers web interface to the Hexrod program which isfound in the software tab at the Rodmakers website. It will allow you to do allof the things mentioned, change line wts. while retaining same stress values, lengthen, shorten, etc. Chris---------- Original Text ---------- The short answer is simple. Change the line weight andkeep the stress values the same. The longer answer isthis could somewhat more of a problem because if thesoftware you are using doesn't allow you to enter stressnumbers, you have to tweak the diameters until you getthe same stress values.Darryl Subject: Using Stress Curves Stress curves are well worth the effort to learn forrodmaking, but first let me warn you that if you areexpecting the stress curve to look like the stresscurve in the Garrison - Charmichael book, it won't.Garrison drew an idealized stress curve, then triedto derive taper diameters from that. Basically he hadto use successive approximations starting from astraight taper and going through his calculations 2 to3 times to get his taper. He never (at least in thebook) went the other way, taking the resulting taperand calculated a stress curve straight from it. Once you begin to understand stress curves, many thingsbecome possible. You can profile an existing rod. You can measure a rod,then from the shape of the stress curve you can make afairly good guess as to what the action will be. To dothis you must have quite a few rods, actually cast themand look at their stress curves. You can design a new rod. With your knowledge of stresscurves and the resulting actions of the rods learned from the above step, you can design any length rod inany line weight and in as many pieces as you want, andget any action, slow, fast, parabolic or any other thatyou might have learned from casting a rod and lookingat it's stress curve. You can lengthen or shorten a rod and preserve thecasting action. You can make the same rod for different line weights. You can make the same rod in different number of pieces.If you have a favorite rod that you want to take back-packing, just design it with the same stress curve, butin 4, 5, or ? pieces. Stress curves are a very useful tool, and can take yourrodmaking from just copying other people's tapers todesigning your own. Darryl from nobler@satx.rr.com Wed May 24 17:37:43 2000 e4OMbg110545 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Wed, 24 May 2000 17:24:40 -0500 Subject: Re: terrific news from Norway I assume these were salmon ? GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: terrific news from Norway Hi folksThought I'd pass this on.Two guys on the Bjora caught fish of 19.5 and15.7kilos today and yesterday one of them caught a fish of 14 + kilos !!!Here in Quebec water is incredibly high stillCheers brian from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed May 24 18:36:00 2000 e4ONZx111630 (SMTPD32-6.00) id A86E113A007E; Wed, 24 May 2000 19:40:30 -0400 Subject: Contest winner and answer Quite a number of people had the correct answer to the question:"Who originated the Double Haul?"The answer was Marvin K. Hedge. from Ernest Schwiebert's 1978 TROUT:.."...working consistently beyond sixty feet demands more than thesingle haul, which existed in the rule book of fly casting for more thana century before the remarkable double haul was unveiled ininternational competition in 1938. .........It had been germinating inthe work of several Pacific Coast tournament casters for a dozen years,along with a series ofexperiments with radical line tapers. It was probably Marvin Hedge whofirst worked out a rudimentary double haul in response to his ownweight-forward line theories, since it was Hedge who first unveiled itin competition. " ---[Note: I've also seen it documented as firstdemonstrated by Hedge in the 1934 National Championship.] Due to the omission of the noun "cast", I also accepted as valid entriesthose who described the haulage of things other than line. (Cleverlads.)The winner, drawn at random from all correct answers, was RickCrenshaw. A new contest for a silk line starts immediately. The line will be anew-in-box Newton Streamline Silk line "E" L5I (must have been made inthe sixties) amber in color. It will need some TLC, but will make a niceline.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from briansr@point-net.com Wed May 24 21:01:11 2000 e4P21A113639 forged)) Wed, 24 May 2000 22:01:08 -0400 Subject: Re: terrific news from Norway Organization: YEP http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/d142187.htmand enjoy !!!!Cheers Brian ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: terrific news from Norway I assume these were salmon ? GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Brian Sturrock" Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 11:32 AMSubject: terrific news from Norway Hi folksThought I'd pass this on.Two guys on the Bjora caught fish of 19.5 and15.7kilos today and yesterday one of them caught a fish of 14 + kilos !!!Here in Quebec water is incredibly high stillCheers brian from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed May 24 21:10:35 2000 e4P2AZ113915 "'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu '" Subject: RE: Using Stress Curves Darryl -- Great post. I've experienced many of the benefits you described usingsimplegraphs, with the flat-to-flat measurement on the y axis and distance fromthe tip on the x. I can relate the shape of the line to rod characteristicsetc. Is there some way in which a stress curve is more useful than thesesimple graphs? Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Using Stress Curves Stress curves are well worth the effort to learn forrodmaking, but first let me warn you that if you areexpecting the stress curve to look like the stresscurve in the Garrison - Charmichael book, it won't.Garrison drew an idealized stress curve, then triedto derive taper diameters from that. Basically he hadto use successive approximations starting from a straight taper and going through his calculations 2 to3 times to get his taper. He never (at least in thebook) went the other way, taking the resulting taperand calculated a stress curve straight from it. Once you begin to understand stress curves, many thingsbecome possible. You can profile an existing rod. You can measure a rod,then from the shape of the stress curve you can make afairly good guess as to what the action will be. To dothis you must have quite a few rods, actually cast themand look at their stress curves. You can design a new rod. With your knowledge of stresscurves and the resulting actions of the rods learned from the above step, you can design any length rod inany line weight and in as many pieces as you want, andget any action, slow, fast, parabolic or any other thatyou might have learned from casting a rod and lookingat it's stress curve. You can lengthen or shorten a rod and preserve the casting action. You can make the same rod for different line weights. You can make the same rod in different number of pieces.If you have a favorite rod that you want to take back-packing, just design it with the same stress curve, butin 4, 5, or ? pieces. Stress curves are a very useful tool, and can take yourrodmaking from just copying other people's tapers todesigning your own. Darryl from cattanac@wmis.net Wed May 24 22:01:55 2000 e4P31s114680 mail4.wmis.net (8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id Subject: Re: Using Stress Curves Yes - A stress curve is very useful. Perhaps the most important amongthem is that it (or rather) the stress numbers allows duplication of actionin different line weight rods - example - reduce a 6 weight rod taper to a4weight rod taper - by the application of a different tip impact number from DNHayashida@aol.com Thu May 25 00:13:38 2000 e4P5Db116611 Subject: Re: Using Stress Curves graph is useful. It all boils down to whatever works for you since you arethe one making your rod.Darryl Great post. I've experienced many of the benefits you described usingsimplegraphs, with the flat-to-flat measurement on the y axis and distancefromthe tip on the x. I can relate the shape of the line to rod characteristicsetc. Is there some way in which a stress curve is more useful than thesesimple graphs? from tcreech@neo.rr.com Thu May 25 00:32:08 2000 e4P5W6117065 Subject: Varnish drying time boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01BFC5E8.DCF9B4A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BFC5E8.DCF9B4A0 I just completed my first refinishing of a bamboo rod (last varnish dip =was Monday).How long should I wait before stringing this baby up? Thanks! Tom Creech ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BFC5E8.DCF9B4A0 I just completed my first refinishing of a bamboo = varnish dip was Monday).How long should I wait before stringing this up? Thanks! Tom Creech ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BFC5E8.DCF9B4A0-- from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Thu May 25 01:01:19 2000 e4P61H117576 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Shellac and varnish I've used shellac before dipping in Polyurethane on a couple of rods. Thevarnish seems to stickwell to the rods. I been speaking to several professionals painter/restorerabout this issue,and they all say shellac is a good base for any varnish............ I've not "french polish", but simply applied thin shellac with a rag, notsureif it makes anydifferent to make the varnish melt together. Off course You shall never apply any finish on dirt or wax..... regardsdanny Paul Goodwin wrote: While watching my sections get pulled out of the varnish I started toreadthe label on the Varmor R10 can. In the instructions it said: Never apply over shellac, sanding sealer, laquer sealer or over dirt... A few weeks back there was a discussion of shellac and french polish onabamboo rod. It doesn't sound like a base coat of shellac is a good idea. Paul from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Thu May 25 01:23:39 2000 e4P6Nc117940 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: terrific news from Norway These salmon was taken on wobbler on a plastic rod UHHHH!!! BTW How come You know about this, are You norwegian or leser du norsk...? danny Brian Sturrock wrote: YEP http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/d142187.htmand enjoy !!!!Cheers Brian ----- Original Message -----From: nobler Sent: 24 mai, 2000 18:40Subject: Re: terrific news from Norway I assume these were salmon ? GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Brian Sturrock" Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 11:32 AMSubject: terrific news from Norway Hi folksThought I'd pass this on.Two guys on the Bjora caught fish of 19.5and15.7kilos today and yesterday one of them caught a fish of 14 + kilos !!!Here in Quebec water is incredibly high stillCheers brian from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Thu May 25 02:24:01 2000 e4P7O0118770 Subject: Re: Silk line varnish (Was: Reed Curry) John, Do You mean only boiled linseed oil with drier, or 50/50 with PU varnish?Or1/3 oil, 1/3 PUand 1/3 terpentine? TIAdanny J. C. Zimny wrote: Use boiled linseed oil and add a little cobalt drier. You can get cobaltdrier at an art supply store.John Z from grau@buchlang.com Thu May 25 03:26:19 2000 e4P8QI119611 (MET DST) Subject: Flip Ring Guides/Hook keeper? source for these? Wha`t about using this "loose ring guides, are theyexisting in different sizes and know someone a source? Regards & thanks Stefan from grau@buchlang.com Thu May 25 03:49:52 2000 e4P8np120003 (MET DST) Subject: Loose-/Flip ring guides Part Two Sorry - i mean using todays folding hook keepers as replacement part for loose ring guides.. Stefan Grau schrieb: source for these? Wha`t about using this "loose ring guides, are theyexisting in different sizes and know someone a source? Regards & thanks Stefan --Lang Info AccessDatenbanken - CD Rom - InternetliteraturInternet: http://www.buchlang.com/infoaccess/Stefan GrauInformation ConsultantMènzgraben 2CH-3011 Berne/SwitzerlandPhone: 031 310 84 84direct phone: ++41 ( 0 ) 31 310 84 78fax: 310 84 94ausgenommen:Montag vormittag,Dienstag nachmittagMittwoch ganzer Tag---------------------------------------------------------------Sicherheits-Hinweis: Diese elektronische Post ist nur fèr den oder die Empf€nger, welchein der Adress-Zeile genannt werden bestimmt!Falls Sie nicht zu diesen gehåren, verståsst jede- unerlaubte Kopie,- unerlaubte Weiterleitung,- unerlaubte Kenntnisnahme, auch vermutlich oeffentlicher Inhalte,- und unerlaubte Verbreitung der enthaltenen Nachricht(en),sowie jeder anderer unautorisierte Gebrauch gegen geltendes Recht. Falls Sie nicht zu den in der Adresszeile genannten Empf€nger(n)gehåren,so bitten wir Sie um Kontaktnahme des Absenders und Zerstårungder betreffenden Daten von Ihrem Computer._________________________________________ Security-Note: The information transmitted is intended only for the personor entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidentialand/or privileged material.Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, ortaking of any action in reliance upon, this information bypersons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.If you received this in error, please contact the sender and deletethe material from any computer. from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Thu May 25 04:12:32 2000 e4P9CU120482 Subject: Oil/Varnish finish Anybody tried to use linseed oil, spar- or PU varnish as a finish onrod? Anyway, I'm going to mix up some, to a silk line restoring, going to tryit on a piece of cane..... regardsdanny from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu May 25 04:45:46 2000 e4P9jh120988 Thu, 25 May 2000 17:45:25 +0800 Subject: Re: Shellac and varnish "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Could be something specific to that varnish/poly because shellac isnormally considered a good wood grain filler to use prior to applying thevarnish. Tony At 08:02 AM 5/25/00 +0200, Danny Twang wrote:I've used shellac before dipping in Polyurethane on a couple of rods. Thevarnish seems to stickwell to the rods. I been speaking to several professionalspainter/restorerabout this issue,and they all say shellac is a good base for any varnish............ I've not "french polish", but simply applied thin shellac with a rag, notsureif it makes anydifferent to make the varnish melt together. Off course You shall never apply any finish on dirt or wax..... regardsdanny Paul Goodwin wrote: While watching my sections get pulled out of the varnish I started toreadthe label on the Varmor R10 can. In the instructions it said: Never apply over shellac, sanding sealer, laquer sealer or over dirt... A few weeks back there was a discussion of shellac and french polishon abamboo rod. It doesn't sound like a base coat of shellac is a good idea. Paul /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'. " - Yoda ('The Empire Strikes Back') /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu May 25 04:48:08 2000 e4P9m5121114 Thu, 25 May 2000 17:49:05 +0800 Subject: Re: terrific news from Norway Must be fed on steroid laced pellets!Just kidding. Tony At 10:00 PM 5/24/00 -0400, Brian Sturrock wrote:YEP http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/d142187.htmand enjoy !!!!Cheers Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: nobler Sent: 24 mai, 2000 18:40Subject: Re: terrific news from Norway I assume these were salmon ? GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Brian Sturrock" Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 11:32 AMSubject: terrific news from Norway Hi folksThought I'd pass this on.Two guys on the Bjora caught fish of 19.5 and15.7kilos today and yesterday one of them caught a fish of 14 + kilos !!!Here in Quebec water is incredibly high stillCheers brian /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'. " - Yoda ('The Empire Strikes Back') /*************************************************************************/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu May 25 05:15:53 2000 e4PAFr121588 Thu, 25 May 2000 07:15:47 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Flip Ring Guides/Hook keeper? Stefan,you might try russ over at Golden Witch, I get my NS ring andstrap keepers from him and he has an assortment of sizes if I remembercorrectly. He may even have the originals because he sometimes hasclassic components.Keep your eye open on e bay too, you may be able to buy an oldrod with them and strip it. If I see any I'll keep you in mind.ShawnStefan Grau wrote: source for these? Wha`t about using this "loose ring guides, are theyexisting in different sizes and know someone a source? Regards & thanks Stefan from petermckean@netspace.net.au Thu May 25 06:57:30 2000 e4PBvS123010 Subject: Polyurethane Organization: vet boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFC693.91AEAFE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFC693.91AEAFE0 About the only problem I don't see, Tony, is "fisheyes", and now that =someone has told me about them I guess I will have them too!I dip in a poly tube, withdrawing at about 1.5' per minute, in my =garage, which is tantamount to being in the open, except that the half =closed door tends to channel the insects more directly to the 5' of =bamboo flypaper on which I am working.Until the great explosive expose, I used degrease the section with =ether* and dip immediately; temperature is between 18 and 24 degrees, =and I will no longer dip in the winter, as the couple of rods I tried to =do last winter I had to strip right back and do again. I do each repeat =at 24 hours without sanding between coats unless something vile has =occurred. It seems to me that the stuff is still soft enough at 24 hours =that it is very hard to do anything except strip down and start again. =Even if you are delicate with 1000 or 1500 paper, you still get a mess, =so I don't do it.I use total 3 coats on the tips and 3 or 4 on the butt. It looks pretty =slick to begin with, but I leave them a couple of months to dry, and =somehow they look better then, though why this should be I don't know.Any help? ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFC693.91AEAFE0 About the only problem I don't see, = "fisheyes", and now that someone has told me about them I guess I will = too!I dip in a poly tube, withdrawing at = minute, in my garage, which is tantamount to being in the open, except = bamboo flypaper on which I am working.Until the great explosive expose, I = the section with ether* and dip immediately; temperature is between 18 = each repeat at 24 hours without sanding between coats unless something = occurred. It seems to me that the stuff is still soft enough at 24 hours = is very hard to do anything except strip down and start again. Even if = it.I use total 3 coats on the tips and 3 = butt. It looks pretty slick to begin with, but I leave them a couple of = to dry, and somehow they look better then, though why this should be I = know.Any help? ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BFC693.91AEAFE0-- from petermckean@netspace.net.au Thu May 25 07:11:23 2000 e4PCBL123280 Subject: Poly varnish Organization: vet boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0074_01BFC695.840E0000" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BFC695.840E0000 Oops, forgot the asterisk in my previous!Obviously I will not be using any more ether to degrease and clean =sections, so can anyone tell me what would be best, please.I am thinking either denatured alcohol or artists' vegetable turpentine.Peter ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BFC695.840E0000 previous!Obviously I will not be using any more= please.I am thinking either denatured alcohol= vegetable turpentine.Peter ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BFC695.840E0000-- from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu May 25 08:08:06 2000 e4PD85124459 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Thu, 25 May 2000 08:09:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Varnish drying time I stripped wraps I didn't like this week, on a rod done about 3-4 weeksago.The varnish was still soft a gooey around the guides ! GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Varnish drying time I just completed my first refinishing of a bamboo rod (last varnish dipwasMonday).How long should I wait before stringing this baby up? Thanks! Tom Creech from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Thu May 25 08:18:33 2000 e4PDIW125095 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP ;Thu, 25 May 2000 13:18:26 +0000 Subject: Re: Contest winner and answer(Double Haul-Marvin Hedge) developed by another fellow (Mooch Abrams?) who taught it to MarvinHedge.Both were local boys and Mooch was injured (auto accident?) causing damageto right shoulder and arm, cutting his competetive casting career short. Hekept on fishing however and the double haul helped him overcome theinjuryand keep him on the stream. He "coached" local casters including MikeKennedy who was a competitive caster in his own right. This was relatedtome in the mid 70s (75-76) by the late Mike Kennedy who was kind enoughtoshow me how they double hauled in the "old days". Ed Hartzell may haveheard some of the same stories...Ed are you out there? Kennedy, Abrams and Hedge were all part of the crew that hung out at theoldHoneyman Hardware store in Portland during the 30s-40s and used acastingplatform that existed at the time on the Willamette River at the foot ofYamhill Street. The current casting pond at Westmoreland Park inPortlandwas built during that era to host a national casting competition....... reed curry wrote: Quite a number of people had the correct answer to the question:"Who originated the Double Haul?"The answer was Marvin K. Hedge. from Ernest Schwiebert's 1978 TROUT:.."...working consistently beyond sixty feet demands more than thesingle haul, which existed in the rule book of fly casting for more thana century before the remarkable double haul was unveiled ininternational competition in 1938. .........It had been germinating inthe work of several Pacific Coast tournament casters for a dozen years,along with a series ofexperiments with radical line tapers. It was probably Marvin Hedge whofirst worked out a rudimentary double haul in response to his ownweight-forward line theories, since it was Hedge who first unveiled itin competition. " ---[Note: I've also seen it documented as firstdemonstrated by Hedge in the 1934 National Championship.] Due to the omission of the noun "cast", I also accepted as valid entriesthose who described the haulage of things other than line. (Cleverlads.)The winner, drawn at random from all correct answers, was RickCrenshaw. A new contest for a silk line starts immediately. The line will be anew-in-box Newton Streamline Silk line "E" L5I (must have been made inthe sixties) amber in color. It will need some TLC, but will make a niceline.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ --Mike LeitheiserLake Oswego, Oregon "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu May 25 08:20:47 2000 e4PDKk125233 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Thu, 25 May 2000 08:21:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Flip Ring Guides/Hook keeper? Hello Shawn, It seems your Canadian Customs is increasing their position as the "heavy"in most anything coming into your country from the U.S. ! I made ashipmentMay 5, via air mail, and its still not delivered. Insured for $250, andmarked as, "repaired and returned to owner", at a charge of $31.50, itseemsto have just gone away to never-never land ! In thinking about this problem, it seems having a friend close to a bordercrossing, to mail to on the U.S. side, may offer a solution. They could takeit across, and mail it in Canada ! The small extra postage would far offsetthe long wait and duty ! GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Flip Ring Guides/Hook keeper? Stefan,you might try russ over at Golden Witch, I get my NS ring andstrap keepers from him and he has an assortment of sizes if I remembercorrectly. He may even have the originals because he sometimes hasclassic components.Keep your eye open on e bay too, you may be able to buy an oldrod with them and strip it. If I see any I'll keep you in mind.ShawnStefan Grau wrote: source for these? Wha`t about using this "loose ring guides, are theyexisting in different sizes and know someone a source? Regards & thanks Stefan from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu May 25 08:27:25 2000 e4PDRO125564 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Thu, 25 May 2000 08:28:32 -0500 "'RODMAKERS'" Subject: Re: Poly varnish Living in such cold country does have its disadvantages I guess ! Our 38degC. + summers do have some good sides, when it comes to faster drying !Anyway, most any alcohol is a very dry media, and will remove oils, etc.,well, with safety. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Poly varnish Oops, forgot the asterisk in my previous!Obviously I will not be using any more ether to degrease and cleansections,so can anyone tell me what would be best, please.I am thinking either denatured alcohol or artists' vegetable turpentine.Peter from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Thu May 25 08:57:09 2000 e4PDv8126842 Subject: Valspar Hello to all,I am thinking of trying Valspar on my next test rod, anyone using this please give me the pros &cons.T.I.AJoe from jmpio@nhbm.com Thu May 25 09:02:25 2000 e4PE2O127171 (5.0.1459.74) Subject: RE: Polyurethane The reason your rod is looking even better a month later is that thepoly is still curing. Cure time is significantly extended by yourpractice of recoating before the previous coat is completely cured.I've been using poly on wood for several years, and it almost alwaystakes at least a couple weeks before it reaches maximum hardness. Ifyou do multiple coats as you describe, it takes even longer. The timeto cure is also affected by temperature and humidity (thus all thediscussions and use of drying cabinets). Personally, I believe that along slow cure gives the best finish, as long as you can keep the bugsand dust out of it, and avoid the temptation to play with it in theinterim. -----Original Message-----From: petermckean [SMTP:petermckean@netspace.net.au]Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 5:53 AM Subject: Polyurethane About the only problem I don't see, Tony, is "fisheyes", and now thatsomeone has told me about them I guess I will have them too!I dip in a poly tube, withdrawing at about 1.5' per minute, in mygarage, which is tantamount to being in the open, except that the halfclosed door tends to channel the insects more directly to the 5' ofbamboo flypaper on which I am working.Until the great explosive expose, I used degrease the section withether* and dip immediately; temperature is between 18 and 24 degrees,and I will no longer dip in the winter, as the couple of rods I triedto do last winter I had to strip right back and do again. I do eachrepeat at 24 hours without sanding between coats unless something vilehas occurred. It seems to me that the stuff is still soft enough at 24hours that it is very hard to do anything except strip down and startagain. Even if you are delicate with 1000 or 1500 paper, you still geta mess, so I don't do it.I use total 3 coats on the tips and 3 or 4 on the butt. It lookspretty slick to begin with, but I leave them a couple of months todry, and somehow they look better then, though why this should be Idon't know.Any help?Peter from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu May 25 09:43:46 2000 e4PEhj128714 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Thu, 25 May 2000 09:30:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Valspar As stated earlier, Valspar was our standard down here, in Texas, but itappears to have been changed by EPA restrictions, like so many others. Ihaven't tried spraying it with an air brush yet, but will soon. It stillseems to work well, but was tach free on wraps much quicker than the oldstuff. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Valspar Hello to all,I am thinking of trying Valspar on my next test rod, anyoneusing this please give me the pros &cons.T.I.AJoe from caneman@clnk.com Thu May 25 11:58:04 2000 e4PGw3103515 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com; Thu, 25 May 2000 11:53:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Polyurethane Gonna mix technologies here. A friend of mine paints custom motorcyclesandeach coat (there are several, just the way we recoat our rods) is allowedtodry at 100 degrees for 24 hours, then put in an oven and heat cured at 150degrees for 30 minutes. When the mulitple coats are finished, it's readytogo, no long term cure time like we are experiencing with multiple coats.Will this work with poly's or varnishes? Anyone do anything like this? Iput mine in a heated drying cabinet, but nothing like this. Bob-----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Polyurethane The reason your rod is looking even better a month later is that thepoly is still curing. Cure time is significantly extended by yourpractice of recoating before the previous coat is completely cured.I've been using poly on wood for several years, and it almost alwaystakes at least a couple weeks before it reaches maximum hardness. Ifyou do multiple coats as you describe, it takes even longer. The timeto cure is also affected by temperature and humidity (thus all thediscussions and use of drying cabinets). Personally, I believe that along slow cure gives the best finish, as long as you can keep the bugsand dust out of it, and avoid the temptation to play with it in theinterim. -----Original Message-----From: petermckean [SMTP:petermckean@netspace.net.au]Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 5:53 AM Subject: Polyurethane About the only problem I don't see, Tony, is "fisheyes", and now thatsomeone has told me about them I guess I will have them too!I dip in a poly tube, withdrawing at about 1.5' per minute, in mygarage, which is tantamount to being in the open, except that the halfclosed door tends to channel the insects more directly to the 5' ofbamboo flypaper on which I am working.Until the great explosive expose, I used degrease the section withether* and dip immediately; temperature is between 18 and 24 degrees,and I will no longer dip in the winter, as the couple of rods I triedto do last winter I had to strip right back and do again. I do eachrepeat at 24 hours without sanding between coats unless something vilehas occurred. It seems to me that the stuff is still soft enough at 24hours that it is very hard to do anything except strip down and startagain. Even if you are delicate with 1000 or 1500 paper, you still geta mess, so I don't do it.I use total 3 coats on the tips and 3 or 4 on the butt. It lookspretty slick to begin with, but I leave them a couple of months todry, and somehow they look better then, though why this should be Idon't know.Any help?Peter from jmpio@nhbm.com Thu May 25 12:12:22 2000 e4PHCL103975 (5.0.1459.74) Subject: RE: Polyurethane I think the answer may be both "yes" and "no". First, the "yes" part.A thin coat of poly placed in a 100 degree environment with very lowhumidity, will be quite close to completely cured in 24 hours, and,based purely on my own experience, will be over 99% cured in 48 hours.So using a very warm, dry cabinet will definitely speed up the process.Doing so presents a different set of problems, however, caused by thediffering chemistry of paints and varnishes. Poly, when cured, creates a cross-linked polymer, in which the moleculesform multiple chemical bonds to the adjacent molecules. This makes foran extremely durable finish, poly's best characteristic. But it is alsowhy poly is difficult to repair, and why wood finishers do a lightsanding between coats. A new coat placed on top of a cured coat willnot form a chemical bond between coats. This is because the first coatis linked to itself, but it does not dissolve in order to link to thenew coat. The light sanding creates crevices and scratches which allowthe formation of a mechanical bond between coats. Without themechanical bond, the second coat may flake off of the first coat whenthe finished item is subjected to stress (e.g., casting). The problemis partially solved, without sanding, by recoating before the first coathas completely cured, thus allowing both mechanical and chemical bondingto occur. The risk here is that you may leave brush marks in thepartially cured first coat, though they will usually be invisible underthe new coat. So while a warm, dry cabinet will speed curing, it creates a new problemwhich can be overcome with a light buffing with 0000 steel wool betweencoats. But while heat and dryness will speed curing, there is apractical limit to how fast the chemical reaction that creates thecross-linked structure can occur. This is not so with paints, whichdon't generally create a polymer at all. When most paints dry, they aredoing just that, drying. The solvents are evaporating, leaving behindthe pigment and solids that make up the finished coating. No chemicalvoodoo going on. The limitation in both cases is how fast can thesolvents be made to evaporate without effecting the othercharacteristics of the finish. I think the speed with which paint canbe made to dry is very different from the speed with which the chemicalcross linking can be made to occur. free to correct me. This is all based on a very few books on finishingandfinish chemistry I read several years ago. -----Original Message-----From: Bob Nunley [SMTP:caneman@clnk.com]Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Polyurethane Gonna mix technologies here. A friend of mine paints custommotorcycles andeach coat (there are several, just the way we recoat our rods) isallowed todry at 100 degrees for 24 hours, then put in an oven and heat cured at150degrees for 30 minutes. When the mulitple coats are finished, it'sready togo, no long term cure time like we are experiencing with multiplecoats.Will this work with poly's or varnishes? Anyone do anything likethis? Iput mine in a heated drying cabinet, but nothing like this. Bob-----Original Message-----From: James Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 8:58 AMSubject: RE: Polyurethane The reason your rod is looking even better a month later is that thepoly is still curing. Cure time is significantly extended by yourpractice of recoating before the previous coat is completely cured.I've been using poly on wood for several years, and it almost alwaystakes at least a couple weeks before it reaches maximum hardness. Ifyou do multiple coats as you describe, it takes even longer. The timeto cure is also affected by temperature and humidity (thus all thediscussions and use of drying cabinets). Personally, I believe that along slow cure gives the best finish, as long as you can keep the bugsand dust out of it, and avoid the temptation to play with it in theinterim. -----Original Message-----From: petermckean [SMTP:petermckean@netspace.net.au]Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 5:53 AM Subject: Polyurethane About the only problem I don't see, Tony, is "fisheyes", and nowthatsomeone has told me about them I guess I will have them too!I dip in a poly tube, withdrawing at about 1.5' per minute, in mygarage, which is tantamount to being in the open, except that thehalfclosed door tends to channel the insects more directly to the 5' ofbamboo flypaper on which I am working.Until the great explosive expose, I used degrease the section withether* and dip immediately; temperature is between 18 and 24degrees,and I will no longer dip in the winter, as the couple of rods Itriedto do last winter I had to strip right back and do again. I do eachrepeat at 24 hours without sanding between coats unless somethingvilehas occurred. It seems to me that the stuff is still soft enough at24hours that it is very hard to do anything except strip down andstartagain. Even if you are delicate with 1000 or 1500 paper, you stillgeta mess, so I don't do it.I use total 3 coats on the tips and 3 or 4 on the butt. It lookspretty slick to begin with, but I leave them a couple of months todry, and somehow they look better then, though why this should be Idon't know.Any help?Peter from tklein@amgen.com Thu May 25 12:26:09 2000 e4PHQ8104672 smtp.amgen.com via smap (V4.2) (5.5.2448.0) Subject: Titebond website family of glue products: http://www.titebond.com Specifications for the products recently discussed here are available,including the extended set Titebond II (look under Cabinet shop glues) ---Timx11512 from DNHayashida@aol.com Thu May 25 12:27:35 2000 e4PHRZ104718 Subject: Rod Handling I would like to broach a subject that I have not seen come up in thecontext of fly fishing rods, that is howa rod handles. I have seen things that almost touch on the subject, but notquite in the depth that I think itdeserves. The Orvis catalog has a tiny little illustration showing whatthey call leveraged weight as opposedto actual weight of a rod. I think this is correct, and far reaching init’s implications if it wasfully understood. Rods I have used fishing or cast that have felt light in my hand were notnecessarily actually light, but dueto the rod itself or the reel on the rod being heavier, balanced somewhereon the grip. I could actuallybalance the rod horizontally on my fingertip, and my fingertip wassomewhere on the cork of the grip. Theserods felt light and fast. Rods that felt heavy, even slow and ponderous(this even included some plastic rods)had a balance point far forward of the grip. I think this is why Pfluger reels have their fans, especially bamboo rodusers. They are generally heavier andwill counter-balance a rod more than the ultra lightweight modern reelswill. Testing this idea, I took an 8 1/2 foot Phillipson impregnated bamboo rod,and with an Orvis Battenkill reel(one of the heavier reels), I started wrapping lead tape around the reelseat. When the rod balanced somewhereon the handle it felt more like a 7 foot rod. The feeling of a rod beingheavy is due to the leverage of therod and having to fight it when reversing the weight back and forth duringcasting. But, the big wad of leadaround the reel seat would be hard to duplicate when making a bamboo rod.Swelled butts? Lead tape under thereel seat? Try it. Counterbalance your rod so that the point of balance is on thehandle and see if your roddoesn’t feel lighter when you cast it when it is actually heavierwith the extra weight.Darryl from jmpio@nhbm.com Thu May 25 12:33:43 2000 e4PHXg105140 (5.0.1459.74) Subject: RE: Rod Handling In another forum, someone recently suggested using lead core line forthis purpose. Figure out how much of it you need to attain the feel youwant, then add it to the reel-end of your backing. This doesn't makesnese if you use one reel for multiple rods, but might be good if youhave a dedicated setup that you use a lot. Also, don't some of the oldPglueger's have a way to add weight to the center of the arbor? -----Original Message-----From: DNHayashida@aol.com [SMTP:DNHayashida@aol.com]Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 11:27 AM Subject: Rod Handling I would like to broach a subject that I have not seen come up in thecontext of fly fishing rods, that is how a rod handles. I have seenthings that almost touch on the subject, but not quite in the depththat I think it deserves. The Orvis catalog has a tiny littleillustration showing what they call leveraged weight as opposed toactual weight of a rod. I think this is correct, and far reaching init’s implications if it was fully understood. Rods I have used fishing or cast that have felt light in my hand werenot necessarily actually light, but due to the rod itself or the reelon the rod being heavier, balanced somewhere on the grip. I couldactually balance the rod horizontally on my fingertip, and myfingertip was somewhere on the cork of the grip. These rods felt lightand fast. Rods that felt heavy, even slow and ponderous (this evenincluded some plastic rods) had a balance point far forward of thegrip. I think this is why Pfluger reels have their fans, especially bamboorod users. They are generally heavier and will counter-balance a rodmore than the ultra lightweight modern reels will. Testing this idea, I took an 8 1/2 foot Phillipson impregnated bamboorod, and with an Orvis Battenkill reel (one of the heavier reels), Istarted wrapping lead tape around the reel seat. When the rod balancedsomewhere on the handle it felt more like a 7 foot rod. The feeling ofa rod being heavy is due to the leverage of the rod and having tofight it when reversing the weight back and forth during casting. But,the big wad of lead around the reel seat would be hard to duplicatewhen making a bamboo rod. Swelled butts? Lead tape under the reelseat? Try it. Counterbalance your rod so that the point of balance is on thehandle and see if your rod doesn’t feel lighter when you cast itwhen it is actually heavier with the extra weight.Darryl from earsdws@duke.edu Thu May 25 12:48:30 2000 e4PHmT105633 NAA08112; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Duke University MedicalCenter Subject: Re: Rod Handling Darryl,They're right on target. I spent several days a year or so ago on the SanJuan, fishing a 5wt Hardy CC deFrance. I thought I was going to die towards the end of each day, myforearm was throbbing from trying tokeep the tip up (my jerk "plastic rod companion chuckled for the wholeweek). While not esthetically pleasing(given the rod), I found my old heavy Pflueger the best "fit." Since thattime, I have purchased a couple ofheavier, old reels to further balance the rods. For the other, newerbamboo rods I've purchased, I always fita few reelsfirst to make sure the rods will be serviceable (one of prime criteria atthis point).dws. DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: I would like to broach a subject that I have not seen come up in thecontext of fly fishing rods, that ishow a rod handles. I have seen things that almost touch on the subject, butnot quite in the depth that Ithink it deserves. The Orvis catalog has a tiny little illustration showingwhat they call leveraged weight asopposed to actual weight of a rod. I think this is correct, and far reachingin it’s implications if itwas fully understood. Rods I have used fishing or cast that have felt light in my hand were notnecessarily actually light, butdue to the rod itself or the reel on the rod being heavier, balancedsomewhere on the grip. I could actuallybalance the rod horizontally on my fingertip, and my fingertip wassomewhere on the cork of the grip. Theserods felt light and fast. Rods that felt heavy, even slow and ponderous(this even included some plastic rods)had a balance point far forward of the grip. I think this is why Pfluger reels have their fans, especially bamboo rodusers. They are generally heavierand will counter-balance a rod more than the ultra lightweight modernreels will. Testing this idea, I took an 8 1/2 foot Phillipson impregnated bamboorod, and with an Orvis Battenkill reel(one of the heavier reels), I started wrapping lead tape around the reelseat. When the rod balanced somewhereon the handle it felt more like a 7 foot rod. The feeling of a rod beingheavy is due to the leverage of therod and having to fight it when reversing the weight back and forth duringcasting. But, the big wad of leadaround the reel seat would be hard to duplicate when making a bamboo rod.Swelled butts? Lead tape under thereel seat? Try it. Counterbalance your rod so that the point of balance is on thehandle and see if your roddoesn’t feel lighter when you cast it when it is actually heavierwith the extra weight.Darryl from caneman@clnk.com Thu May 25 12:48:31 2000 e4PHmU105638 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com; Thu, 25 May 2000 12:44:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Rod Handling Good point. Just by coincidence, I just finished my "Tarpon/steelhead" rodnot long ago. I put a 14 inch handle, reel seat, then a 4" fighting butt onit. Almost like a two handed rod, but the handle being more forward onthisrod, makes it a pleasure to cast. It's a 9' 9 wt and is no effort at all tocast this thing. When I first started it (this is the heaviest rod I haveEVER built), I honestly thought. "Oh, this will be OK for sight casting,but sure wouldn't want to cast it all day long", but it turned out to be alot less effort to cast and handle than I anticipated. Maybe it's becauseof the accidental balance I put in it by using a long forward grip and the4" fighting butt. Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Rod Handling I would like to broach a subject that I have not seen come up in thecontext of fly fishing rods, that is how a rod handles. I have seen thingsthat almost touch on the subject, but not quite in the depth that I think itdeserves. The Orvis catalog has a tiny little illustration showing whattheycall leveraged weight as opposed to actual weight of a rod. I think this iscorrect, and far reaching in it’s implications if it was fullyunderstood. Rods I have used fishing or cast that have felt light in my hand were notnecessarily actually light, but due to the rod itself or the reel on the rodbeing heavier, balanced somewhere on the grip. I could actually balancetherod horizontally on my fingertip, and my fingertip was somewhere on thecorkof the grip. These rods felt light and fast. Rods that felt heavy, even slowand ponderous (this even included some plastic rods) had a balance pointfarforward of the grip. I think this is why Pfluger reels have their fans, especially bamboo rodusers. They are generally heavier and will counter-balance a rod more thanthe ultra lightweight modern reels will. Testing this idea, I took an 8 1/2 foot Phillipson impregnated bamboorod,and with an Orvis Battenkill reel (one of the heavier reels), I startedwrapping lead tape around the reel seat. When the rod balanced somewhereonthe handle it felt more like a 7 foot rod. The feeling of a rod being heavyis due to the leverage of the rod and having to fight it when reversing theweight back and forth during casting. But, the big wad of lead around thereel seat would be hard to duplicate when making a bamboo rod. Swelledbutts? Lead tape under the reel seat? Try it. Counterbalance your rod so that the point of balance is on thehandle and see if your rod doesn’t feel lighter when you cast itwhenit is actually heavier with the extra weight.Darryl from oossg@vbe.com Thu May 25 13:34:42 2000 e4PIYf107545 (envelope- from oossg@vbe.com) Organization: Oshkosh Office Systems, Inc. Subject: Three Letters List, I'm a little slow on picking up what some of these mean? GMATIABTWMight be others I haven't seen yet? Scott from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu May 25 13:49:01 2000 e4PIn0108033 (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id NAA08622 for (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id NAA30821 for Subject: Re: Three Letters Here's a web site with all the major acronyms: http://www.tangled.com/acronyms.htm ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 25 May 2000, Scott Grady wrote: List, I'm a little slow on picking up what some of these mean? GMATIABTWMight be others I haven't seen yet? Scott from sniderja@email.uc.edu Thu May 25 14:44:45 2000 e4PJij109542 Subject: Re: Rod Handling Darryl, you have discovered the reason why up to about 35 years ago thereusually were discussions in most references (books, magazines) re a"balanced outfit" with the rod/reel combo balancing at least in front ofthe grip, but usually somewhere back on the grip. Indeed, many a friendlyargument was held regarding just where a rod/reel should "balance." Manyfly fishers did wrap strips of lead around the reel spool. Couldn't do itwith the old automatics (brim and bass days) but the automatic reels wereusually more than heavy enough to balance an 8'6" bass rod.J. Snider At 01:27 PM 05/25/2000 -0400, DNHayashida@aol.com wrote:I would like to broach a subject that I have not seen come up in thecontext of fly fishing rods, that is how a rod handles. I have seen things that almost touch on the subject, but not quite in the depth that I think it deserves. The Orvis catalog has a tiny little illustration showing whatthey call leveraged weight as opposed to actual weight of a rod. I think this is correct, and far reaching in it’s implications if it was fully understood. Rods I have used fishing or cast that have felt light in my hand were not necessarily actually light, but due to the rod itself or the reel on the rod being heavier, balanced somewhere on the grip. I could actually balancethe rod horizontally on my fingertip, and my fingertip was somewhere on thecork of the grip. These rods felt light and fast. Rods that felt heavy, even slow and ponderous (this even included some plastic rods) had a balance pointfar forward of the grip. I think this is why Pfluger reels have their fans, especially bamboo rod users. They are generally heavier and will counter-balance a rod morethan the ultra lightweight modern reels will. Testing this idea, I took an 8 1/2 foot Phillipson impregnated bamboorod, and with an Orvis Battenkill reel (one of the heavier reels), I started wrapping lead tape around the reel seat. When the rod balancedsomewhere on the handle it felt more like a 7 foot rod. The feeling of a rod being heavy is due to the leverage of the rod and having to fight it when reversing the weight back and forth during casting. But, the big wad of lead around the reel seat would be hard to duplicate when making a bamboo rod. Swelled butts? Lead tape under the reel seat? Try it. Counterbalance your rod so that the point of balance is on the handle and see if your rod doesn’t feel lighter when you cast itwhen it is actually heavier with the extra weight.Darryl from caneman@clnk.com Thu May 25 14:55:43 2000 e4PJth109948 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com for ;Thu, 25 May 2000 14:51:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Rod Handling List,Let me correct myself. When I spouted out those numbers on the griplength of the Tarpon rod a bit ago, I was just working off the top of myhead and unintentionally mislead you. The total length of all cork on therod is 14 1/2", not a 14 inch forward handle, and I had forgotten how I hadit distributed, too. The forward part of the grip is 8 3/8" and thefighting butt is 6 1/8".Regardless, Darryl's post got me curious so I got the rod out, mountedthe large loop reel with line on it that I will use for this rod, pivotedthe rod on the edge of a chair just forward of the reel on the grip and putthe tip top on the triple beam scales. What I came up with was aleveragedweight at the tip top of .94 ounces. I was curious as to how this comparedwith my other rods with the reels that I use on them, and here is what Icame up with. First on the list is the rod I was writing about above. Rod Total Wt without reel Tipweight/pivoted9' 9wt 7.0 oz0.94 oz8' 5wt 5.3 oz0.66 oz7' 4wt 3.9 oz0.41 oz6'9" 3wt (swelled butt) 4.0 oz 0.39 oz6'2wt 2.3 oz0.33 oz As you can see, all of the rods were pretty light out on the tip top,with the deviation being from 9.75% of total wt to 14.34%. I think thateven the heaviest rod at 0.94 ounces is comfortable, but what if I hadn'thad that fighting butt on the 9ft 9 wt. Well, it can't be extremelyaccurate because of the extended lenght of the grip, but I did tape the reelto the fighting butt, where it would normally be mounted, and weighed offofthe tip top the same way as before and the difference is massive. Tip topweight went from .94 ounces to 1.48 ounces. Now that could wear on anelbowover a days casting! Thoughts? Later,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Rod Handling I would like to broach a subject that I have not seen come up in thecontext of fly fishing rods, that is how a rod handles. I have seen thingsthat almost touch on the subject, but not quite in the depth that I think itdeserves. The Orvis catalog has a tiny little illustration showing whattheycall leveraged weight as opposed to actual weight of a rod. I think this iscorrect, and far reaching in it’s implications if it was fullyunderstood. Rods I have used fishing or cast that have felt light in my hand were notnecessarily actually light, but due to the rod itself or the reel on the rodbeing heavier, balanced somewhere on the grip. I could actually balancetherod horizontally on my fingertip, and my fingertip was somewhere on thecorkof the grip. These rods felt light and fast. Rods that felt heavy, even slowand ponderous (this even included some plastic rods) had a balance pointfarforward of the grip. I think this is why Pfluger reels have their fans, especially bamboo rodusers. They are generally heavier and will counter-balance a rod more thanthe ultra lightweight modern reels will. Testing this idea, I took an 8 1/2 foot Phillipson impregnated bamboorod,and with an Orvis Battenkill reel (one of the heavier reels), I startedwrapping lead tape around the reel seat. When the rod balanced somewhereonthe handle it felt more like a 7 foot rod. The feeling of a rod being heavyis due to the leverage of the rod and having to fight it when reversing theweight back and forth during casting. But, the big wad of lead around thereel seat would be hard to duplicate when making a bamboo rod. Swelledbutts? Lead tape under the reel seat? Try it. Counterbalance your rod so that the point of balance is on thehandle and see if your rod doesn’t feel lighter when you cast itwhenit is actually heavier with the extra weight.Darryl from caneman@clnk.com Thu May 25 15:06:32 2000 e4PK6V110443 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com for ;Thu, 25 May 2000 15:02:13 -0500 Subject: Fw: Rod Handling Boy, that came out a jumbled up mess on my end. Looked so neat andorganized when I sent it from here. Let me try again... here is the tableI tried to list, each line is the rod, rods total weight and tip topleveraged weight with the rod pivoted just forward of the reel, in thatorder 9' 9wt 7.0 oz 0.94 oz8' 5wt 5.3 oz 0.66 oz7' 4wt 3.9 oz 0.41 oz6'9" 3wt 4.0 oz 0.39 oz6'2wt 2.3 oz 0.33 oz There, easier to read that way. Later,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Rod Handling List,Let me correct myself. When I spouted out those numbers on the griplength of the Tarpon rod a bit ago, I was just working off the top of myhead and unintentionally mislead you. The total length of all cork on therod is 14 1/2", not a 14 inch forward handle, and I had forgotten how Ihadit distributed, too. The forward part of the grip is 8 3/8" and thefighting butt is 6 1/8".Regardless, Darryl's post got me curious so I got the rod out, mountedthe large loop reel with line on it that I will use for this rod, pivotedthe rod on the edge of a chair just forward of the reel on the grip and putthe tip top on the triple beam scales. What I came up with was aleveragedweight at the tip top of .94 ounces. I was curious as to how thiscomparedwith my other rods with the reels that I use on them, and here is what Icame up with. First on the list is the rod I was writing about above. Rod Total Wt without reel Tipweight/pivoted9' 9wt 7.0 oz0.94 oz8' 5wt 5.3 oz0.66 oz7' 4wt 3.9 oz0.41 oz6'9" 3wt (swelled butt) 4.0 oz 0.39 oz6'2wt 2.3 oz0.33 oz As you can see, all of the rods were pretty light out on the tip top,with the deviation being from 9.75% of total wt to 14.34%. I think thateven the heaviest rod at 0.94 ounces is comfortable, but what if I hadn'thad that fighting butt on the 9ft 9 wt. Well, it can't be extremelyaccurate because of the extended lenght of the grip, but I did tape thereelto the fighting butt, where it would normally be mounted, and weighedoffofthe tip top the same way as before and the difference is massive. Tip topweight went from .94 ounces to 1.48 ounces. Now that could wear on anelbowover a days casting! Thoughts? Later,Bob -----Original Message-----From: DNHayashida@aol.com Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 12:25 PMSubject: Rod Handling I would like to broach a subject that I have not seen come up in thecontext of fly fishing rods, that is how a rod handles. I have seen thingsthat almost touch on the subject, but not quite in the depth that I thinkitdeserves. The Orvis catalog has a tiny little illustration showing whattheycall leveraged weight as opposed to actual weight of a rod. I think this iscorrect, and far reaching in it’s implications if it was fullyunderstood. Rods I have used fishing or cast that have felt light in my hand were notnecessarily actually light, but due to the rod itself or the reel on therodbeing heavier, balanced somewhere on the grip. I could actually balancetherod horizontally on my fingertip, and my fingertip was somewhere on thecorkof the grip. These rods felt light and fast. Rods that felt heavy, evenslowand ponderous (this even included some plastic rods) had a balance pointfarforward of the grip. I think this is why Pfluger reels have their fans, especially bamboo rodusers. They are generally heavier and will counter-balance a rod morethanthe ultra lightweight modern reels will. Testing this idea, I took an 8 1/2 foot Phillipson impregnated bamboorod,and with an Orvis Battenkill reel (one of the heavier reels), I startedwrapping lead tape around the reel seat. When the rod balancedsomewhere onthe handle it felt more like a 7 foot rod. The feeling of a rod being heavyis due to the leverage of the rod and having to fight it when reversing theweight back and forth during casting. But, the big wad of lead around thereel seat would be hard to duplicate when making a bamboo rod. Swelledbutts? Lead tape under the reel seat? Try it. Counterbalance your rod so that the point of balance is on thehandle and see if your rod doesn’t feel lighter when you cast itwhenit is actually heavier with the extra weight.Darryl from bob@downandacross.com Thu May 25 15:41:52 2000 e4PKfq111714 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: Re: Three Letters GMA is George. He is not really an acronym.Bob At 01:49 PM 5/25/00 -0500, you wrote:Here's a web site with all the major acronyms: http://www.tangled.com/acronyms.htm ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 25 May 2000, Scott Grady wrote: List, I'm a little slow on picking up what some of these mean? GMATIABTWMight be