from bob@downandacross.com Sun Jun 11 15:32:47 2000 e5BKWlG15744 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: silk lines and $150 rods Wondering here what happened to all the old line making gear. Where did the Cortland and US Line Co stuff go? out there. That is not an accurate price at all. I am working out a few refinements on components and tapers to use best with the silk lines I have on the way. The smaller size Snake Brand guides are a starting point.Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from mikeg@micronet.net Sun Jun 11 16:02:06 2000 e5BL25G16192 (EudoraInternet Mail Server 2.2.2); Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:02:11 -0800User- Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Multi-Tip Rod I am considering buying a 7' 3-piece 2-tip 3 weight rod. I want an allpurpose rod that will make short casts as well as normal.I would prefer not to use a 4-weight line for short casts. Some onerecommended using a heavier tip (tip #2) for short casts so the rod wouldload with a short line. I have heard of 2 tip rods with a dry fly/ wet flytip, but never a normal/short distance casting tip. Can anyone let me knowif this is a good idea. from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jun 11 16:07:34 2000 e5BL7XG16368 (SMTPD32-6.00) id A0B72CAA00AC; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:12:23 -0400 Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods Bob,Cortland has 16 silk line machines sitting idle, including one on loan tothe Catskill FF Museum.As for the $250 silk line price, he probably took that from the article Iwrote on silk lines. That figure comes from the 1998 price listed byBelvoirdale.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ bob maulucci wrote: Wondering here what happened to all the old line making gear. Where didtheCortland and US Line Co stuff go? out there. That is not an accurate price at all. I am working out a fewrefinements on components and tapers to use best with the silk lines Ihaveon the way. The smaller size Snake Brand guides are a starting point.Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from wlwalter@bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 11 16:16:16 2000 e5BLGGG16566 Subject: Chris bogart's website Anyone have the address for Chris Bogart's Website? from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jun 11 16:22:12 2000 e5BLMCG16743 (SMTPD32-6.00) id A4232CD700AC; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:26:59 -0400 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: A Challenge issued by J. Castwell - Line guide drag Shawn,While it is true that double tapers were more popular during the silk era,there were plenty of WF tapers, including some extremely complex tapersdesigned for specific load distances with specific rod actions. Come toGrayrock and try out some very impressive lines.I don't think you can find a PVC line which tapers down to .020" ("I"). Thestandard tip diamater for PVC seems to be .037" or thereabouts. Even then,thethin PVC sinks.BTW - for a $250-$330 silk line tryhttp://www.belvoirdale.com/silklines.html. This is $60-$140 more than someother dealers.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Shawn Pineo wrote: Also,most popular lines of old were DT , and I think most rods werebuilt accordingly (there are most likely exceptions and I'm no expert).Alot of people today use WF lines which once past the shooting part puts youback to a smaller diameter line, perhaps even smaller than silk in somecases.The other option of course is to use larger/better quality guides.I prefer to use small higher quality ones myself and still manage to castmore than a USEABLE distance of line. All a matter of personal taste. Shawn Pineo from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jun 11 16:30:59 2000 e5BLUwG17017 (SMTPD32-6.00) id A635B21800DA; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:35:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Chris bogart's website Bill,Chris has two websites. Try http://www.shentel.net/canerod/ and alsohttp://www.canerod.com/.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Bill Walters wrote: Anyone have the address for Chris Bogart's Website? from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jun 11 16:37:00 2000 e5BLaxG17255 (SMTPD32-6.00) id A79EFC4600E6; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:41:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4 Richard,While I don't think Darrel's suggestions will cut modern varnishes (I'vetried all three) we omitted one unhealthy compound that is sold freely forapplication on the skin... 100% DEET. This will take the varnish off a rod, itshould probably work on the lines, and keep them mosquito free, too.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Richard Nantel wrote: Gents, Thanks for suggestions on how to remove modern varnish from my silklines.This conversation regarding chemical safety has been an eye opener. I know nothing of chemical toxicity. Assuming that denatured alcohol,mineral spirits, MEK, and laquer thinner all do the job, which would be thesafest? Thanks in advanced, Richard would-rather-fish-plastic-lines-than-get-poisoned Nantel from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun Jun 11 16:50:06 2000 e5BLo5G17555 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:51:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4 Hmmm, I wonder if the Citristrip will remove it ? GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4 Richard,While I don't think Darrel's suggestions will cut modern varnishes(I'vetried all three) we omitted one unhealthy compound that is sold freely forapplication on the skin... 100% DEET. This will take the varnish off arod, itshould probably work on the lines, and keep them mosquito free, too.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Richard Nantel wrote: Gents, Thanks for suggestions on how to remove modern varnish from my silklines.This conversation regarding chemical safety has been an eye opener. I know nothing of chemical toxicity. Assuming that denatured alcohol,mineral spirits, MEK, and laquer thinner all do the job, which would bethesafest? Thanks in advanced, Richard would-rather-fish-plastic-lines-than-get-poisoned Nantel from bob@downandacross.com Sun Jun 11 16:57:59 2000 e5BLvwG17779 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods Hi Reed:What are these machines like? Are they gigantic?Thanks,Bob At 05:05 PM 6/11/00 -0400, you wrote:Bob,Cortland has 16 silk line machines sitting idle, including one on loan tothe Catskill FF Museum. Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun Jun 11 16:58:19 2000 e5BLwIG17847 Subject: Re: Engraved buttcaps Alec,When I want a butt cap engraved, I take it to the mall.They have a shop in there, that does engraving with a computerengraver. They do brass plaques, trophies, etc. I would thinkmost large malls would have a shop that does engraving. It's notthat expensive to get done, either. Dave http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jun 11 17:00:02 2000 e5BM01G18020 (SMTPD32-6.00) id ACFDB9F200F0; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:04:45 -0400 richard.nantel@videotron.ca,"Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) All,Since we are on this topic... I am not ready to give any credibility togovernmentassessments of chemicals as health hazards. Governments do not serve theinterests ofthe people, nor have they ever; they serve those who empower them. village inNova Scotia. One night we were awakened by firemen knocking on the door. Awarehouse,near the center of town, that was used by the local grain and feed company of pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers, etc. was on fire, and toxic smoke andfumes(they used plenty of water on the fire, creating a toxic stew that killed everyfishin the river, etc.) were drifting the 200 yards toward our house. The entiretown wasevacuated. Dow and Dupont had lawyers flown in within hours. Every lawyer inthewestern end of the province was put on retainer by the chemical companies.The newsmedia did a virtual blackout of coverage, so as not to impact tourism oragriculture.After three days the feds ordered the emergency ended and "allowed" usback into ourhomes with a one page warning not to let children play outside without fullcoverageof head, arms, legs (it was summer), to wash all walls, floors, ceilings, etc..Thedioxins found in the milk of cows five miles away was not a problem, the dairywouldmix that milk with safe milk, etc.So, four days later, children were playing on the pile of sand used to divertthetoxic flow toward the river, while thirty feet away Dow techs were vaccing upsoilwhile wearing bio-hazard suits and bottled air.I could narrate other personal instances of the validity of governmentwarningsbut one of my hands is glowing and making the screen hard to read. : )Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun Jun 11 17:38:44 2000 e5BMchG18651 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:38:31 -0500 Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods This makes you wonder what it would take to get them to crank up, and makesome more silk, or other similar material lines ? GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods Bob,Cortland has 16 silk line machines sitting idle, including one on loantothe Catskill FF Museum.As for the $250 silk line price, he probably took that from thearticle Iwrote on silk lines. That figure comes from the 1998 price listed byBelvoirdale.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ bob maulucci wrote: Wondering here what happened to all the old line making gear. Where didtheCortland and US Line Co stuff go? areout there. That is not an accurate price at all. I am working out a fewrefinements on components and tapers to use best with the silk lines Ihaveon the way. The smaller size Snake Brand guides are a starting point.Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Sun Jun 11 17:40:39 2000 e5BMecG18758 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with SMTP ;Sun, 11 Jun 2000 22:40:33 +0000 Subject: Re: A Challenge issued by J. Castwell I thought the great George whats-his-name was already making rods forunder$200. All we need now are the $50 silk lines. Jack -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: A Challenge issued by J. Castwell Reed,Thank you for pointing out J. Castewells challenge. I feel soguilty, ripping off my customers, what was I thinking!I am going to set to work right away to answer his challengeand build that $150 bamboo fly rod........that is as soon as I canlocate a culm of premium bamboo for $4.00 , a quality reel seat for$2.50 , NS ferrules for $5.00 , scarce A+ cork for.01 a ring, a top of the line rod tube/bag for $3.00, best qualityguides, silk thread, and varnish for pocket change, If J could help melocate those components I would be greatly indebted and would be morethan happy to build him a rod!!!Oh and maybe he could transport us all back to a era where mytime is worth$1.00 or so an hour (and my family could actually live on my $40.00 aweek pay check) that would help too!But I suppose then I could never afford to buy all the toolsnesassary for rod building.Has J been frozen in a block of ice for 50 years or something???You can't even buy a good graphite rod(does such a creature exist ?) for$150 and i guarantee there is not 1/20 the amount of work or cost ofmaterials in it. Not to mention the blood, sweat, tears and bit of soulthat it would lack!Even if someone didn't charge for their time, a rod like thiswould be double that price! I wish we could live in this fantasy worldthat J has created. Perhaps he is hoping someone will meet his challengeso he can buy the rod! ;^) Shawn PIneo reed curry wrote: All,I just noticed an interesting article.http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/bamboo/--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Jun 11 17:54:52 2000 e5BMsqG19013 Sun, 11 Jun 2000 19:54:47 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Multi-Tip Rod Mike,that is the good part of our craft, almost anything is possible! Ihave even seen 3 pc rods with 2 mids and 2-4 tips giving a range of about 4oreven 5 different wts. This is essentially the same as in close and out far.Also you can make a rod better in close or out far by varying the linewt or taper (WF/DT....ect.)P.S. I believe it is the other way around...for short casts andmaking the rod load faster you would want the smaller tip. Someone pleasecorrect me if I am wrong?Hope this helps! Shawn Pineo Mike George wrote: I am considering buying a 7' 3-piece 2-tip 3 weight rod. I want an allpurpose rod that will make short casts as well as normal.I would prefer not to use a 4-weight line for short casts. Some onerecommended using a heavier tip (tip #2) for short casts so the rod wouldload with a short line. I have heard of 2 tip rods with a dry fly/ wet flytip, but never a normal/short distance casting tip. Can anyone let me knowif this is a good idea. from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Jun 11 18:05:04 2000 e5BN53G19244 Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:04:58 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: JC's "challenge" Ralph,hey great idea! Why don't you guys all come up here to NovaScotia to visit?? Maybe a rod gathering.......mmmmmmmm! OK now, wewouldn'twant to scare off all the graphite gang here. All those guys running aroundwith them there funny lookin wooden sticks! ;^)Leave the big clubs home boys, the short, light rod rules here American Shad!That might not be a bad idea! I wonder if I was to organizesomething like that, how many out there would come?? Food for thought! Shawn Pineo Ralph W Moon wrote: Shawn I came on a little strong. Sorry. I got to thinking that one of themain points I raised was that most of us do not build rods to accomodatesilk lines, and I guess that actually we do. Wouldn't it be great ifwe didn't have to communicate through the internet?Ralph from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Jun 11 18:11:24 2000 e5BNBNG19463 Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:11:18 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: A Challenge issued by J. Castwell Actually I was visiting Georges site today and I think he has raised his price,I think that the cheapest he has is around $500 which is still an unbelievableprice especially considering the overhead he must have!Shawn Pineo Jacques Follweiler wrote: I thought the great George whats-his-name was already making rods forunder$200. All we need now are the $50 silk lines. Jack -----Original Message-----From: Shawn Pineo Cc: Rodmakers Listserv Date: Sunday, June 11, 2000 7:59 AMSubject: Re: A Challenge issued by J. Castwell Reed,Thank you for pointing out J. Castewells challenge. I feel soguilty, ripping off my customers, what was I thinking!I am going to set to work right away to answer his challengeand build that $150 bamboo fly rod........that is as soon as I canlocate a culm of premium bamboo for $4.00 , a quality reel seat for$2.50 , NS ferrules for $5.00 , scarce A+ cork for.01 a ring, a top of the line rod tube/bag for $3.00, best qualityguides, silk thread, and varnish for pocket change, If J could help melocate those components I would be greatly indebted and would be morethan happy to build him a rod!!!Oh and maybe he could transport us all back to a era where mytime is worth$1.00 or so an hour (and my family could actually live on my $40.00 aweek pay check) that would help too!But I suppose then I could never afford to buy all the toolsnesassary for rod building.Has J been frozen in a block of ice for 50 years or something???You can't even buy a good graphite rod(does such a creature exist ?) for$150 and i guarantee there is not 1/20 the amount of work or cost ofmaterials in it. Not to mention the blood, sweat, tears and bit of soulthat it would lack!Even if someone didn't charge for their time, a rod like thiswould be double that price! I wish we could live in this fantasy worldthat J has created. Perhaps he is hoping someone will meet his challengeso he can buy the rod! ;^) Shawn PIneo reed curry wrote: All,I just noticed an interesting article.http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/bamboo/--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Jun 11 18:21:26 2000 e5BNLPG19692 Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:21:19 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods "Douglas P. Easton" ,"Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) Ironically George it is these same Govt.' agencies who usually make theworst of the messes and allow them to happen.As far as the model glue, in all my years of model building I never noticedany side effects...side effects...side effects....side effects....what was Isaying??? Where am I?;^) ;^) ;^)Shawn Pineonobler wrote: I don't take any of these various chemicals lightly, nor do I speak withless than over 60 years of using many of them ! The description givenhere,could just as easily apply to gasoline ! I don't of any massive movement toeliminate this vital fluid. It fact these organizations have managed tocontaminate with this "oxygenated" gas, much worse that the smog it wassupposed to help curtail. It won't be long before we see these foul fuelsrevert back to much cleaner fuels, more like they used to be ! The pure facts are that in order to perpetuate their jobs, thesegovernmentagencies have created false panic, when proper use, and common sensebeliedthe need ! The result of these agency's actions, funded by our tax dollars, haveeliminated some products entirely, and greatly affected the quality ofmanyothers ! I stand by my statements, and claims in the first posting, as I have usedthousands of gallons of many flammable liquids, with not one even closecall, in all these years ! The user simply must use discretion in how theyare used ! Here in Texas, they locked up all spray paint, so teenagerscouldn't sniff it. They also banned the sale of model airplane cement forthe same reason. All the while, they could buy a gallon of many thinners,that could do a many times more damage ! What I'm speaking of here, is accepting responsibility for your own actions,and the return to using good old "horse sense" ! This is a vote for lessgovernment in our lives, and to stop trying to get something for nothing ! GMA ----- Original Message -----From: "Douglas P. Easton" Cc: "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 12:13 PMSubject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) All, Let's get this straight. We need to have our facts together when wediscusschemical safety and environmental regulations. Both Lee and George arenotentirely correct in their assessment of MEK safety issues. The best waytofind out about these things is to visit the web sites of OSHA EPA,chemicalmanufacturers and University Chemical Safety Departments. I amprovidingthe following URLS RE: MEK National Academy of Sciences (OSHA) USA Guidelines FOR USE: http://www.osha- slc.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/ethylamylketone/recognition.html Canadian OSHA: http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/mek/health_mek.html MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheet) for MEK from Manufacturer: http://chem- courses.ucsd.edu/CoursePages/Uglabs/MSDS/methyl.ethyl.ketone.- fisher.html Environmental concerns: http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/2butanon.html My interpretation:1. MEK is NOT a known or suspected carcinogen (it may cause birthdefects).2. MEK is a serious neurotoxin and can make you very sick at highexposurelevels3. MEK is a SERIOUS fire hazard4. MEK is a potential skin irritant5. MEK is acutely toxic on ingestion6. MEK must be used with proper ventilation (if you use a fan it should beEXPLOSION PROOF).7. You should protect your skin from contact (use appropriate gloves).6. Do not use MEK when a safer solvent might do.7. Find a means for recycling your MEK waste PLEASE NOTE:There are some groups who feel that MEK is carcinogenic and teratogenicandhas caused this sort of harm in the workplace. I can not say whethertheyare correct or not. I can only say that they are in the minority. Emergency Overview ( from J.F. Baker Site)--------------------------DANGER! EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. VAPOR MAYCAUSE FLASHFIRE. HARMFUL OR FATAL IFSWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN.AFFECTSCENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM.CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. J.T. Baker SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for yourconvenience) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------Health Rating: 2 - ModerateFlammability Rating: 4 - Extreme (Flammable)Reactivity Rating: 2 - ModerateContact Rating: 2 - ModerateLab Protective Equip: GOGGLES; LAB COAT; VENT HOOD; PROPERGLOVES;CLASS B EXTINGUISHERStorage Color Code: Red (Flammable) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- Potential Health Effects---------------------------------- Inhalation:Causes irritation to the nose and throat. Concentrations above theTLVmay cause headache, dizziness, nausea, shortness of breath, andvomiting.Higher concentrations may cause central nervous system depressionandunconsciousness.Ingestion:May produce abdominal pain, nausea. Aspiration into lungs canproducesevere lung damage and is a medical emergency. Other symptomsexpectedto parallel inhalation.Skin Contact:Causes irritation to skin. Symptoms include redness, itching, andpain. May be absorbed through the skin with possible systemic effects.Eye Contact:Vapors are irritating to the eyes. Splashes can produce painfulirritation and eye damage.Chronic Exposure:Prolonged skin contact may defat the skin and produce dermatitis.Chronic exposure may cause central nervous system effects.Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems or impairedrespiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of thesubstance. Regards, -Doug Easton At 10:40 AM 6/11/2000 -0500, nobler wrote:The EPA has listed so many chemicals that are dangerous to yourhealth,it'sat the point of being down right silly. Many of these "banned" chemicalsarebased on using them in a closed environment, at a ratio that wouldamounttoa rat drinking them in drum quantities ! I used to buy MEK in 55 gal.drums! You don't inhale the fumes, nor take a bath in it. However the EPAbasessuch rulings on an unsupervised child having access to them ! It's allpartof this insurance crazy/lawsuit world we have ! Between them, and the"treehuggers", we soon will have nothing left but water based sub-parproducts! Just look what has happened to our old spar varnishes ! GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Lee Freeman" Cc: "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 3:36 AMSubject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4 Hey Fellas, I don't mean to be a doomsayer, but MEK has been PROVEN to be aseriouscarcinogenic and was barred some years ago from use in, as oneinstance,military electronics. The Feds will close down any plant still usingthatstuff. It is absorbed through the skin and is quite dangerous. DO NOTfoolwith this stuff! I know its a great solvent, as were a few otherbannedsolvents like carbon tetrachloride, but the damage to your body won'thelpyou enjoy that nice silk line. When working with solvents of any sort,don't forget you rubber gloves and the nice open and well ventilatedspaceto work in. Lee Freeman from yves@hwy97.net Sun Jun 11 19:15:49 2000 e5C0FmG20343 (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.2.0) with SMTP id ;Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:15:47 -0700 Subject: Re: A Challenge issued by J. Castwell Well Shawn, I'm looking at a Hardy catalog for 1958-59. It lists the C.C.De France 9' 2-piece, 1 top, rod at L10/19 - i.e., about $55 (purchase taxa couple of pounds extra). At that time, I was living in Quebec (on$300/mo) and felt that this was an unwarranted extravagance. I ended uppurchasing a Milwards Flymaster (9', 2-piece, 2 tops) for L14 (refMilwards 1960 catalog, perhaps $70). So, you don't have to go back to1960. Anyway, Im not sure that I made the right decision. Dave At 11:35 AM 6/11/00 -0400, Shawn Pineo wrote:George,I wonder, just how many years ago would you have to go back togetthe kind of quality JC is talking about for $150 ??I mean we aren't talking about South Bend or Heddon type qualityhere. It would have to be a Young, Payne, or the sort. When I think backto whenI was young the extent of my bamboo savvy was South Bend, so I havenothing togauge prices on a time line.Perhaps someone out there has some old adds or knowledge ofthis andcould give us a list of Quality rods around $150 and the rough date it wasavailable at that price? It sounds like it would be informative and a bit offun!Shawn Pineo nobler wrote: Shawn the era you are speaking of meant $40/month, was good pay !When Iwasa kid, you could go see Tom Mix, and get a Baby Ruth, for 6 cents, andtherewas a Green Hornet serial too ! Everything is relative ! GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Shawn Pineo" Cc: "Rodmakers Listserv" Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 7:54 AMSubject: Re: A Challenge issued by J. Castwell Reed,Thank you for pointing out J. Castewells challenge. I feel soguilty, ripping off my customers, what was I thinking!I am going to set to work right away to answer his challengeand build that $150 bamboo fly rod........that is as soon as I canlocate a culm of premium bamboo for $4.00 , a quality reel seat for$2.50 , NS ferrules for $5.00 , scarce A+ cork for.01 a ring, a top of the line rod tube/bag for $3.00, best qualityguides, silk thread, and varnish for pocket change, If J could help melocate those components I would be greatly indebted and would be morethan happy to build him a rod!!!Oh and maybe he could transport us all back to a era where mytime is worth$1.00 or so an hour (and my family could actually live on my $40.00 aweek pay check) that would help too!But I suppose then I could never afford to buy all the toolsnesassary for rod building.Has J been frozen in a block of ice for 50 years or something???You can't even buy a good graphite rod(does such a creature exist ?)for$150 and i guarantee there is not 1/20 the amount of work or cost ofmaterials in it. Not to mention the blood, sweat, tears and bit of soulthat it would lack!Even if someone didn't charge for their time, a rod like thiswould be double that price! I wish we could live in this fantasy worldthat J has created. Perhaps he is hoping someone will meet hischallengeso he can buy the rod! ;^) Shawn PIneo reed curry wrote: All,I just noticed an interesting article.http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/bamboo/--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun Jun 11 19:29:41 2000 e5C0TeG20586 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Sun, 11 Jun 2000 19:30:43 -0500 "Douglas P. Easton" ,"Rodmakers \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) Yes, I've been using model cement, and dopes, and epoxies of all kinds,since 1937. I've sprayed dopes in a closed garage, and blown the over-sprayout of my nose for a week. Never so much as a sore throat ! When you dostupid things, like sticking your head in a plastic bag, so all oxygen isdeprived, that's a totally different matter. Now, here in Texas, we can no longer buy acrylic lacquer for auto painting !I'd really like to know what basis they used for messing with our old sparvarnishes ! My can of Valspar, purchased recently, sets dust free in about 2hours ! That's a far cry from the original, that took far longer. GMA----- Original Message ----- "Douglas P. Easton" ; "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) Ironically George it is these same Govt.' agencies who usually maketheworst of the messes and allow them to happen.As far as the model glue, in all my years of model building I nevernoticedany side effects...side effects...side effects....side effects....what wasIsaying??? Where am I?;^) ;^) ;^)Shawn Pineonobler wrote: I don't take any of these various chemicals lightly, nor do I speak withless than over 60 years of using many of them ! The description givenhere,could just as easily apply to gasoline ! I don't of any massive movementtoeliminate this vital fluid. It fact these organizations have managed tocontaminate with this "oxygenated" gas, much worse that the smog itwassupposed to help curtail. It won't be long before we see these foulfuelsrevert back to much cleaner fuels, more like they used to be ! The pure facts are that in order to perpetuate their jobs, thesegovernmentagencies have created false panic, when proper use, and common sensebeliedthe need ! The result of these agency's actions, funded by our tax dollars, haveeliminated some products entirely, and greatly affected the quality ofmanyothers ! I stand by my statements, and claims in the first posting, as I haveusedthousands of gallons of many flammable liquids, with not one even closecall, in all these years ! The user simply must use discretion in howtheyare used ! Here in Texas, they locked up all spray paint, so teenagerscouldn't sniff it. They also banned the sale of model airplane cementforthe same reason. All the while, they could buy a gallon of manythinners,that could do a many times more damage ! What I'm speaking of here, is accepting responsibility for your ownactions,and the return to using good old "horse sense" ! This is a vote for lessgovernment in our lives, and to stop trying to get something for nothing! GMA ----- Original Message -----From: "Douglas P. Easton" Cc: "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 12:13 PMSubject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) All, Let's get this straight. We need to have our facts together when wediscusschemical safety and environmental regulations. Both Lee and Georgearenotentirely correct in their assessment of MEK safety issues. The bestway tofind out about these things is to visit the web sites of OSHA EPA,chemicalmanufacturers and University Chemical Safety Departments. I amprovidingthe following URLS RE: MEK National Academy of Sciences (OSHA) USA Guidelines FOR USE: http://www.osha- slc.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/ethylamylketone/recognition.html Canadian OSHA: http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/mek/health_mek.html MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheet) for MEK from Manufacturer: http://chem- courses.ucsd.edu/CoursePages/Uglabs/MSDS/methyl.ethyl.ketone.- fisher.html Environmental concerns: http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/2butanon.html My interpretation:1. MEK is NOT a known or suspected carcinogen (it may cause birthdefects).2. MEK is a serious neurotoxin and can make you very sick at highexposurelevels3. MEK is a SERIOUS fire hazard4. MEK is a potential skin irritant5. MEK is acutely toxic on ingestion6. MEK must be used with proper ventilation (if you use a fan itshould beEXPLOSION PROOF).7. You should protect your skin from contact (use appropriate gloves).6. Do not use MEK when a safer solvent might do.7. Find a means for recycling your MEK waste PLEASE NOTE:There are some groups who feel that MEK is carcinogenic andteratogenicandhas caused this sort of harm in the workplace. I can not say whethertheyare correct or not. I can only say that they are in the minority. Emergency Overview ( from J.F. Baker Site)--------------------------DANGER! EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. VAPOR MAYCAUSEFLASHFIRE. HARMFUL OR FATAL IFSWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN.AFFECTSCENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM.CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. J.T. Baker SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for yourconvenience) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------Health Rating: 2 - ModerateFlammability Rating: 4 - Extreme (Flammable)Reactivity Rating: 2 - ModerateContact Rating: 2 - ModerateLab Protective Equip: GOGGLES; LAB COAT; VENT HOOD; PROPERGLOVES;CLASS B EXTINGUISHERStorage Color Code: Red (Flammable) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- Potential Health Effects---------------------------------- Inhalation:Causes irritation to the nose and throat. Concentrations abovetheTLVmay cause headache, dizziness, nausea, shortness of breath, andvomiting.Higher concentrations may cause central nervous systemdepressionandunconsciousness.Ingestion:May produce abdominal pain, nausea. Aspiration into lungs canproducesevere lung damage and is a medical emergency. Other symptomsexpectedto parallel inhalation.Skin Contact:Causes irritation to skin. Symptoms include redness, itching, andpain. May be absorbed through the skin with possible systemic effects.Eye Contact:Vapors are irritating to the eyes. Splashes can produce painfulirritation and eye damage.Chronic Exposure:Prolonged skin contact may defat the skin and produce dermatitis.Chronic exposure may cause central nervous system effects.Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems orimpairedrespiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of thesubstance. Regards, -Doug Easton At 10:40 AM 6/11/2000 -0500, nobler wrote:The EPA has listed so many chemicals that are dangerous to yourhealth,it'sat the point of being down right silly. Many of these "banned"chemicalsarebased on using them in a closed environment, at a ratio that wouldamounttoa rat drinking them in drum quantities ! I used to buy MEK in 55 gal.drums! You don't inhale the fumes, nor take a bath in it. However the EPAbasessuch rulings on an unsupervised child having access to them ! It'sallpartof this insurance crazy/lawsuit world we have ! Between them, andthe"treehuggers", we soon will have nothing left but water based sub-parproducts! Just look what has happened to our old spar varnishes ! GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Lee Freeman" Cc: "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 3:36 AMSubject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4 Hey Fellas, I don't mean to be a doomsayer, but MEK has been PROVEN to be aseriouscarcinogenic and was barred some years ago from use in, as oneinstance,military electronics. The Feds will close down any plant stillusingthatstuff. It is absorbed through the skin and is quite dangerous. DONOTfoolwith this stuff! I know its a great solvent, as were a few otherbannedsolvents like carbon tetrachloride, but the damage to your bodywon'thelpyou enjoy that nice silk line. When working with solvents of anysort,don't forget you rubber gloves and the nice open and wellventilatedspaceto work in. Lee Freeman from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jun 11 20:24:22 2000 e5C1OLG21163 (SMTPD32-6.00) id ACE6BBD700F0; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:29:10 -0400 Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods Bob,They look like ropemaking machines and are not larger then you couldcarry inyour pickup. They support 16 threads.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ bob maulucci wrote: Hi Reed:What are these machines like? Are they gigantic?Thanks,Bob At 05:05 PM 6/11/00 -0400, you wrote:Bob,Cortland has 16 silk line machines sitting idle, including one on loan tothe Catskill FF Museum. Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun Jun 11 20:46:26 2000 e5C1kPG21507 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:32:42 -0500 Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk lines again ? GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods Bob,They look like ropemaking machines and are not larger then you couldcarry inyour pickup. They support 16 threads.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ bob maulucci wrote: Hi Reed:What are these machines like? Are they gigantic?Thanks,Bob At 05:05 PM 6/11/00 -0400, you wrote:Bob,Cortland has 16 silk line machines sitting idle, including one onloan tothe Catskill FF Museum. Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from bh887@lafn.org Sun Jun 11 21:22:12 2000 e5C2MBG22010 (envelope- from bh887@lafn.org) "Douglas P. Easton" ,"Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) Guys, Well, I guess we sort of touched one off, huh? Seems many of us havecommonbackgrounds. I too build and fly model aircraft, have used dope, all mannerof glues and cements, and epoxies for most of my life and I too starteddoing this in 1937. Okay, now all that was not said to impress. It was saidto qualify. The list of ill effects put on the list by Doug (I believe itwas he) was frightening, to say the least. Yeah, I agree that Governmentknows less than half of what it speaks to, and the tests the labs conductedare totally suspect, and if you don't sniff model cement it is harmless,except for the little patches that dry on your fingers, and who the heckwants government in our hobbies anyway, and it has never hurt me and I'veused it most of my life. And you know what? That isn't the point at all!The point is, given the suspicions raised by these tests and statements, AREYOU WILLING TO TAKE THE CHANCE? Lee----- Original Message ----- Douglas P. Easton ; Rodmakers (E-mail) Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) Yes, I've been using model cement, and dopes, and epoxies of all kinds,>since 1937. I've sprayed dopes in a closed garage, and blown theover-sprayout of my nose for a week. Never so much as a sore throat ! When you dostupid things, like sticking your head in a plastic bag, so all oxygen isdeprived, that's a totally different matter. Now, here in Texas, we can no longer buy acrylic lacquer for auto painting!I'd really like to know what basis they used for messing with our old sparvarnishes ! My can of Valspar, purchased recently, sets dust free in about2hours ! That's a far cry from the original, that took far longer. GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Shawn Pineo" Cc: ; ; ;"Douglas P. Easton" ; "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 7:17 PMSubject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) Ironically George it is these same Govt.' agencies who usually maketheworst of the messes and allow them to happen.As far as the model glue, in all my years of model building I nevernoticedany side effects...side effects...side effects....side effects....whatwasIsaying??? Where am I?;^) ;^) ;^)Shawn Pineonobler wrote: I don't take any of these various chemicals lightly, nor do I speakwithless than over 60 years of using many of them ! The description givenhere,could just as easily apply to gasoline ! I don't of any massivemovementtoeliminate this vital fluid. It fact these organizations have managedtocontaminate with this "oxygenated" gas, much worse that the smog itwassupposed to help curtail. It won't be long before we see these foulfuelsrevert back to much cleaner fuels, more like they used to be ! The pure facts are that in order to perpetuate their jobs, thesegovernmentagencies have created false panic, when proper use, and commonsensebeliedthe need ! The result of these agency's actions, funded by our tax dollars, haveeliminated some products entirely, and greatly affected the quality ofmanyothers ! I stand by my statements, and claims in the first posting, as I haveusedthousands of gallons of many flammable liquids, with not one evenclosecall, in all these years ! The user simply must use discretion in howtheyare used ! Here in Texas, they locked up all spray paint, so teenagerscouldn't sniff it. They also banned the sale of model airplane cementforthe same reason. All the while, they could buy a gallon of manythinners,that could do a many times more damage ! What I'm speaking of here, is accepting responsibility for your ownactions,and the return to using good old "horse sense" ! This is a vote forlessgovernment in our lives, and to stop trying to get something fornothing! GMA ----- Original Message -----From: "Douglas P. Easton" Cc: "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 12:13 PMSubject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) All, Let's get this straight. We need to have our facts together when wediscusschemical safety and environmental regulations. Both Lee and Georgearenotentirely correct in their assessment of MEK safety issues. The bestway tofind out about these things is to visit the web sites of OSHA EPA,chemicalmanufacturers and University Chemical Safety Departments. I amprovidingthe following URLS RE: MEK National Academy of Sciences (OSHA) USA Guidelines FOR USE: http://www.osha- slc.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/ethylamylketone/recognition.html Canadian OSHA: http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/mek/health_mek.html MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheet) for MEK from Manufacturer: http://chem- courses.ucsd.edu/CoursePages/Uglabs/MSDS/methyl.ethyl.ketone.- fisher.html Environmental concerns: http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/2butanon.html My interpretation:1. MEK is NOT a known or suspected carcinogen (it may cause birthdefects).2. MEK is a serious neurotoxin and can make you very sick at highexposurelevels3. MEK is a SERIOUS fire hazard4. MEK is a potential skin irritant5. MEK is acutely toxic on ingestion6. MEK must be used with proper ventilation (if you use a fan itshould beEXPLOSION PROOF).7. You should protect your skin from contact (use appropriategloves).6. Do not use MEK when a safer solvent might do.7. Find a means for recycling your MEK waste PLEASE NOTE:There are some groups who feel that MEK is carcinogenic andteratogenicandhas caused this sort of harm in the workplace. I can not say whethertheyare correct or not. I can only say that they are in the minority. Emergency Overview ( from J.F. Baker Site)--------------------------DANGER! EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. VAPOR MAYCAUSEFLASHFIRE. HARMFUL OR FATAL IFSWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN.AFFECTSCENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM.CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. J.T. Baker SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for yourconvenience) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------Health Rating: 2 - ModerateFlammability Rating: 4 - Extreme (Flammable)Reactivity Rating: 2 - ModerateContact Rating: 2 - ModerateLab Protective Equip: GOGGLES; LAB COAT; VENT HOOD; PROPERGLOVES;CLASS B EXTINGUISHERStorage Color Code: Red (Flammable) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- Potential Health Effects---------------------------------- Inhalation:Causes irritation to the nose and throat. Concentrations abovetheTLVmay cause headache, dizziness, nausea, shortness of breath, andvomiting.Higher concentrations may cause central nervous systemdepressionandunconsciousness.Ingestion:May produce abdominal pain, nausea. Aspiration into lungs canproducesevere lung damage and is a medical emergency. Other symptomsexpectedto parallel inhalation.Skin Contact:Causes irritation to skin. Symptoms include redness, itching,andpain. May be absorbed through the skin with possible systemiceffects.Eye Contact:Vapors are irritating to the eyes. Splashes can produce painfulirritation and eye damage.Chronic Exposure:Prolonged skin contact may defat the skin and producedermatitis.Chronic exposure may cause central nervous system effects.Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems orimpairedrespiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects ofthesubstance. Regards, -Doug Easton At 10:40 AM 6/11/2000 -0500, nobler wrote:The EPA has listed so many chemicals that are dangerous to yourhealth,it'sat the point of being down right silly. Many of these "banned"chemicalsarebased on using them in a closed environment, at a ratio that wouldamounttoa rat drinking them in drum quantities ! I used to buy MEK in 55gal.drums! You don't inhale the fumes, nor take a bath in it. However theEPAbasessuch rulings on an unsupervised child having access to them ! It'sallpartof this insurance crazy/lawsuit world we have ! Between them, andthe"treehuggers", we soon will have nothing left but water based sub-parproducts! Just look what has happened to our old spar varnishes ! GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Lee Freeman" Cc: "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 3:36 AMSubject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4 Hey Fellas, I don't mean to be a doomsayer, but MEK has been PROVEN to be aseriouscarcinogenic and was barred some years ago from use in, as oneinstance,military electronics. The Feds will close down any plant stillusingthatstuff. It is absorbed through the skin and is quite dangerous.DONOTfoolwith this stuff! I know its a great solvent, as were a few otherbannedsolvents like carbon tetrachloride, but the damage to your bodywon'thelpyou enjoy that nice silk line. When working with solvents of anysort,don't forget you rubber gloves and the nice open and wellventilatedspaceto work in. Lee Freeman from ajthramer@hotmail.com Sun Jun 11 21:28:43 2000 e5C2SgG22197 Sun, 11 Jun 2000 19:28:38 PDT Subject: $500 RODS I have been making a $500(retail) rod for the last five years. Not too hard to do but there is no time for 'custom' work. They are all built to a standard pattern and I offer only four models. I build them four at a time to cut the time to set up for each operation. I was curious when George tried to do the same thing, he admited that the only rods that would sell about $5-600 after that. I think that he underestimated how cantankerous bamboo is to work with. After seeing a few of them the result was dissapointing. No matter what the price the angling public won't accept junk, there is no lomger a market for the cheaper factory built type of rod. There is however a healthy market for quality production rods(ie: Heddon, Granger, Phillipson...)A builder has to address the challenge that interests him, alot of one at a time, perfect works of art seems to be the main focus now but those rods always had a limited market. George had a good idea but his lack of experience with bamboo and his somewhat contrary nature hampered him. To build a good base ofknowlegable buyers for high end cane I think that more builders might want to address the challenge of high quality production work. Without that I don't know where the high end market will incubate their future customer base.A.J.Thramer________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Jun 11 21:33:40 2000 e5C2XeG22366 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Taper boundary="------------9F94D51F4160AA915DD5781B" --------------9F94D51F4160AA915DD5781B I sent this back a while ago and i think the list was having problems atthat time and it never made it through so I'm re sending it. Hope itgets some responses this time. Also if anyone has any penta tapers feelfree to send those to me! TIA Hey guys,while looking through a book tonight I found an articlewhich contained a taper for a Penta rod that I believe might have beenwritten by Claude M Kreider? The taper doesn't appear to be in his bookthough.It is supposed to be a strong 5 sided rod at 8'0" It doesn't say what wtit is for but the ferrule is a 14/64 so I'm going to guess that it is I'll post it here and maybe someone will recognize thetaper and be able to give us some info on the rod. The taper is on6"stations. If anyone builds it let me know how it goes. BUTT TIP0 .360 .2356 .360 .22012 .360 .20018 .340 .18024 .320 .16030 .295 .14036 .275 .12042 .250 .09548 .235 .075 Hopefully this rings a bell with someone out there. Enjoy, Shawn --------------9F94D51F4160AA915DD5781B I sent this back a while ago and i think the list was having problems atthat time and it never made it through so I'm re sending it. Hope it getssome responses this time. Also if anyone has any penta tapers feel freeto send those to me! TIAHey guys, while looking through a book tonight I found an article which containeda taper for a Penta rod that I believe might have been written by ClaudeM Kreider? The taper doesn't appear to be in his book though.It is supposed to be a strong 5 sided rod at 8'0" It doesn't say whatwt it is for but the ferrule is a 14/64 so I'm going to guess that it is I'll post it here and maybe someone will recognize the taper and be ableto give us some info on the rod. The taper is on 6"stations. If anyonebuilds it let me know how it goes. TIP .235 .220 .200 .180 .160 .140 .120 .095 .075Hopefully this rings a bell with someone out there. Enjoy, Shawn --------------9F94D51F4160AA915DD5781B-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun Jun 11 21:52:36 2000 e5C2qZG22706 Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS)BOOOOOM!!! rcurry@ttlc.net,richard.nantel@videotron.ca List,Be really careful when you use MEK or any of the HOT solvents. A number of years back there was a lady in the neighborhood who used to strip furniture and refinish it. One day she was cleaning stripper off a piece with MEK (laquer thinner) and she had the furnace fire up (she was doing this in her basement) BOOOOMMM she killed herself from the explosion and hadextensive burns all over her body. I was a fireman at this time and it was one of the worst things I ever witnessed. GUYS BE CAREFUL WITH THESE THINGSADEQUATE VENTILATION AND EXPLOSION PROOF FANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!Bret from channer1@rmi.net Sun Jun 11 21:59:00 2000 e5C2wxG22892 Subject: Re: JC's "challenge" Ralph W Moon wrote: John,I am glad that at least one person on the rod list can read. It seemsobvious that most cannot. I have never read such a mishmash of halftruths, distortions even outright lies. Jim's purpose was to lamentthat we do not have an equivalent to the older rod and silk line feelwith today's Graphite rods and fluffy lines. He further makes thepoint that the majority of modern rod makers are contributing to thisloss by continuing to propagate rod tapers a half century old. Oldrods and modern lines do not mix, and just because someone canrecreate a PHY taper does not mean that it will perform like the samerod with a silk line. The challenge that Jim makes is to in some waymake a modern cane rod silk line combination without charging $2000 challenged any body to make a $150 rod. He is astute enough to knowthat that is not possible. What he is asking in effect is if all ofus dumb bamboo rod makers are so smart why are we using old taperswith modern lines. Why not design rods to use a silk line, create ademand, and give back something that is missing from fly fishing.Give it up fellows. Read the article before you attack it, then onlyif you are man enough face up to the challenger instead of carpingbehind his back.Better still answer his challenge: "How many rodmakers are makingcane rods for silk lines????" Ralph Ralph;I think that inadvertently, all of us who use the old tapers are makingrods for silk lines. Personally, I see no reason to re-invent the wheel,and I don't have the time or production machinery necessary to endlesslyexperiment with tapers, so I use the ones that are available and thankmy lucky stars that they are out there for me to use. BTW, my thanks toPHY, Leonard,Payne, Garrison,et al, for all their hard work and devotionto their art, without them I would just be making tapered tomato stakes.John from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun Jun 11 22:00:22 2000 e5C30LG23002 Subject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4/rubber gloves Le,Unless you wear the really heavy gloves like for wood stripping the solvents will go thru anyway. The thin surgical types are useless to stop the solvent from penetrating.Bret from darrell@rockclimbing.org Sun Jun 11 22:55:59 2000 e5C3twG23939 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: Slik line bonanza part 4/rubber gloves richard.nantel@videotron.ca Importance: Normal Use the blue Nitrile gloves, they are resistant to most solvents, unlike thelatex gloves that disintergrate upon contact with most of the solvents weuse... Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4/rubber gloves Le,Unless you wear the really heavy gloves like for wood stripping the solventswill go thru anyway. The thin surgical types are useless to stop thesolvent from penetrating.Bret from stpete@netten.net Sun Jun 11 23:01:26 2000 e5C41QG24164 Subject: Old Braided Nylon Fly lines List, I have found and stripped 4 old braided nylon fly lines which I havemanaged to collect with some silk lines. Out of 7 lines found, 4 werenylon, 3 were silk, two of which I think are useable. Question, should I just shelve the nylon lines? Or are they worthfinishing? Rick C. from thardy@foxinternet.net Mon Jun 12 01:12:20 2000 e5C6CJG25981 mailsite.foxinternet.net(Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.2.2) with ESMTP idfor;Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:09:35 -0700User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh- Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Mr. Thramer, $500 rods Fantastic to hear from A.J. Thramer again. I was just about to give up onthis list. Tom Hardy from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Jun 12 04:59:51 2000 e5C9xmG28838 Subject: Shawn Pineo Organization: vet boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B1_01BFD4A8.02F702C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01BFD4A8.02F702C0 I think that one of the really great things about this list is that you =get some really good advice from people who know what they're talking =about; It is only common sense to listen to the warnings.Good one, Shawn! Well said!Peter ------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01BFD4A8.02F702C0 I think that one of the really great = this list is that you get some really good advice from people who know = warnings.Good one, Shawn! Well =said!Peter ------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01BFD4A8.02F702C0-- from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Jun 12 06:02:17 2000 e5CB2FG29891 Subject: Phillipson Smuggler Organization: vet boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0152_01BFD4B0.BE315560" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0152_01BFD4B0.BE315560 I have a Phillipson Smuggler which someone has done a tip swap on, and =replaced a broken(?) tip with a tip section from a very different =Farlow's rod cut down.I would like to make a replacement tip for the rod; does anybody know =the figures for the Smuggler, please.Peter ------=_NextPart_000_0152_01BFD4B0.BE315560 I have a Phillipson Smuggler which = a tip swap on, and replaced a broken(?) tip with a tip section from a = different Farlow's rod cut down.I would like to make a replacement tip = does anybody know the figures for the Smuggler, please.Peter ------=_NextPart_000_0152_01BFD4B0.BE315560-- from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Jun 12 06:26:12 2000 e5CBQBG00518 Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:26:06 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4/rubber gloves Not sure, but I think the nitrile ones will work. Check with a safety supplyplace they carry gloves for most chemicals!Shawn Pineo Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Le,Unless you wear the really heavy gloves like for wood stripping the solventswill go thru anyway. The thin surgical types are useless to stop thesolvent from penetrating.Bret from lars32@gateway.net Mon Jun 12 07:55:15 2000 e5CCtEG01913 Subject: Re: JC's "challenge" boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0052_01BFD444.E9AF2EE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BFD444.E9AF2EE0 What ever happened to "live and let live?"Dave N.-----Original Message----- From: Ralph W Moon Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Sunday, June 11, 2000 12:48 PMSubject: Re: JC's "challenge" I am glad that at least one person on the rod list can read. It =seems obvious that most cannot. I have never read such a mishmash of =half truths, distortions even outright lies. Jim's purpose was to =lament that we do not have an equivalent to the older rod and silk line =feel with today's Graphite rods and fluffy lines. He further makes the =point that the majority of modern rod makers are contributing to this =loss by continuing to propagate rod tapers a half century old. Old rods =and modern lines do not mix, and just because someone can recreate a PHY =taper does not mean that it will perform like the same rod with a silk =line. The challenge that Jim makes is to in some way make a modern cane =rod silk line combination without charging $2000 for the rod and $250 = $150 rod. He is astute enough to know that that is not possible. What =he is asking in effect is if all of us dumb bamboo rod makers are so =smart why are we using old tapers with modern lines. Why not design =rods to use a silk line, create a demand, and give back something that =is missing from fly fishing. Give it up fellows. Read the article =before you attack it, then only if you are man enough face up to the = Better still answer his challenge: "How many rodmakers are making = ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BFD444.E9AF2EE0 What ever happened to "liveand = live?"Dave N. -----Original = =rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= "challenge"John, I am glad that= equivalent to the older rod and silk line feel with today's Graphite = modern rod makers are contributing to this loss by continuing to = and just because someone can recreate a PHY taper does not mean that = makes is to in some way make a modern cane rod silk line combination = nowhere in the article challenged any body to make a = he is asking in effect is if all of us dumb bamboo rod makers are so = rods to use a silk line, create a demand, and give back something = challenger instead of carping behind his back. Better still = ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BFD444.E9AF2EE0-- from nobler@satx.rr.com Mon Jun 12 08:04:41 2000 e5CD4eG02243 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:05:56 -0500 , Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS)BOOOOOM!!! We had a rash of home explosions here, back in the 1960's and '70's. A goodhousewife would try to get her hubby's work clothes really clean, by pouringgasoline in the washing machine. It's pretty clear what happened when sheturned the machine on ! Using common sense with anything, is primary ! GMA----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS)BOOOOOM!!! List,Be really careful when you use MEK or any of the HOT solvents. A numberofyears back there was a lady in the neighborhood who used to stripfurnitureand refinish it. One day she was cleaning stripper off a piece with MEK(laquer thinner) and she had the furnace fire up (she was doing this inherbasement) BOOOOMMM she killed herself from the explosion and hadextensiveburns all over her body. I was a fireman at this time and it was one oftheworst things I ever witnessed. GUYS BE CAREFUL WITH THESE THINGSADEQUATEVENTILATION AND EXPLOSION PROOF FANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!Bret from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Jun 12 08:14:27 2000 e5CDEQG02894 Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) Tony Spezio wrote: I guess I will pipe in here,I have worked with aircraft most of my life. Started at age 16 and left theindustry in 1990 at age 60. My specialty was dope and fabric work on lightaircraft and was around the MEK stuff before all the warnings. I amsuffering from it now with shortness of breath and other things. George is rightaboutusing it with extreme care but when we were using it it was just part of thejoband no precautions were taken. Guys, it is too late for me, but avoid itentirely if you can.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Lee Freeman wrote: Guys, Well, I guess we sort of touched one off, huh? Seems many of us havecommonbackgrounds. I too build and fly model aircraft, have used dope, allmannerof glues and cements, and epoxies for most of my life and I too starteddoing this in 1937. Okay, now all that was not said to impress. It wassaidto qualify. The list of ill effects put on the list by Doug (I believe itwas he) was frightening, to say the least. Yeah, I agree thatGovernmentknows less than half of what it speaks to, and the tests the labsconductedare totally suspect, and if you don't sniff model cement it is harmless,except for the little patches that dry on your fingers, and who the heckwants government in our hobbies anyway, and it has never hurt me andI'veused it most of my life. And you know what? That isn't the point at all!The point is, given the suspicions raised by these tests and statements,AREYOU WILLING TO TAKE THE CHANCE? Lee----- Original Message -----From: nobler Cc: ; ;;Douglas P. Easton ; Rodmakers (E-mail) Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 5:32 PMSubject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) Yes, I've been using model cement, and dopes, and epoxies of all kinds,since 1937. I've sprayed dopes in a closed garage, and blown theover-sprayout of my nose for a week. Never so much as a sore throat ! When youdostupid things, like sticking your head in a plastic bag, so all oxygen isdeprived, that's a totally different matter. Now, here in Texas, we can no longer buy acrylic lacquer for autopainting!I'd really like to know what basis they used for messing with our oldsparvarnishes ! My can of Valspar, purchased recently, sets dust free inabout2hours ! That's a far cry from the original, that took far longer. GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Shawn Pineo" Cc: ; ;;"Douglas P. Easton" ; "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 7:17 PMSubject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) Ironically George it is these same Govt.' agencies who usually maketheworst of the messes and allow them to happen.As far as the model glue, in all my years of model building I nevernoticedany side effects...side effects...side effects....side effects....whatwasIsaying??? Where am I?;^) ;^) ;^)Shawn Pineonobler wrote: I don't take any of these various chemicals lightly, nor do I speakwithless than over 60 years of using many of them ! The descriptiongivenhere,could just as easily apply to gasoline ! I don't of any massivemovementtoeliminate this vital fluid. It fact these organizations have managedtocontaminate with this "oxygenated" gas, much worse that thesmog itwassupposed to help curtail. It won't be long before we see these foulfuelsrevert back to much cleaner fuels, more like they used to be ! The pure facts are that in order to perpetuate their jobs, thesegovernmentagencies have created false panic, when proper use, and commonsensebeliedthe need ! The result of these agency's actions, funded by our tax dollars,haveeliminated some products entirely, and greatly affected the qualityofmanyothers ! I stand by my statements, and claims in the first posting, as I haveusedthousands of gallons of many flammable liquids, with not one evenclosecall, in all these years ! The user simply must use discretion in howtheyare used ! Here in Texas, they locked up all spray paint, soteenagerscouldn't sniff it. They also banned the sale of model airplanecementforthe same reason. All the while, they could buy a gallon of manythinners,that could do a many times more damage ! What I'm speaking of here, is accepting responsibility for your ownactions,and the return to using good old "horse sense" ! This is a vote forlessgovernment in our lives, and to stop trying to get something fornothing! GMA ----- Original Message -----From: "Douglas P. Easton" Cc: "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 12:13 PMSubject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS) All, Let's get this straight. We need to have our facts together whenwediscusschemical safety and environmental regulations. Both Lee andGeorgearenotentirely correct in their assessment of MEK safety issues. Thebestway tofind out about these things is to visit the web sites of OSHA EPA,chemicalmanufacturers and University Chemical Safety Departments. Iamprovidingthe following URLS RE: MEK National Academy of Sciences (OSHA) USA Guidelines FOR USE: http://www.osha- slc.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/ethylamylketone/recognition.html Canadian OSHA: http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/mek/health_mek.html MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheet) for MEK from Manufacturer: http://chem- courses.ucsd.edu/CoursePages/Uglabs/MSDS/methyl.ethyl.ketone.- fisher.html Environmental concerns: http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/2butanon.html My interpretation:1. MEK is NOT a known or suspected carcinogen (it may causebirthdefects).2. MEK is a serious neurotoxin and can make you very sick at highexposurelevels3. MEK is a SERIOUS fire hazard4. MEK is a potential skin irritant5. MEK is acutely toxic on ingestion6. MEK must be used with proper ventilation (if you use a fan itshould beEXPLOSION PROOF).7. You should protect your skin from contact (use appropriategloves).6. Do not use MEK when a safer solvent might do.7. Find a means for recycling your MEK waste PLEASE NOTE:There are some groups who feel that MEK is carcinogenic andteratogenicandhas caused this sort of harm in the workplace. I can not saywhethertheyare correct or not. I can only say that they are in the minority. Emergency Overview ( from J.F. Baker Site)--------------------------DANGER! EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. VAPORMAY CAUSEFLASHFIRE. HARMFUL OR FATAL IFSWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGHSKIN. AFFECTSCENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM.CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. J.T. Baker SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for yourconvenience) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------Health Rating: 2 - ModerateFlammability Rating: 4 - Extreme (Flammable)Reactivity Rating: 2 - ModerateContact Rating: 2 - ModerateLab Protective Equip: GOGGLES; LAB COAT; VENT HOOD;PROPERGLOVES;CLASS B EXTINGUISHERStorage Color Code: Red (Flammable) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- Potential Health Effects---------------------------------- Inhalation:Causes irritation to the nose and throat. ConcentrationsabovetheTLVmay cause headache, dizziness, nausea, shortness of breath, andvomiting.Higher concentrations may cause central nervous systemdepressionandunconsciousness.Ingestion:May produce abdominal pain, nausea. Aspiration into lungs canproducesevere lung damage and is a medical emergency. Othersymptomsexpectedto parallel inhalation.Skin Contact:Causes irritation to skin. Symptoms include redness, itching,andpain. May be absorbed through the skin with possible systemiceffects.Eye Contact:Vapors are irritating to the eyes. Splashes can producepainfulirritation and eye damage.Chronic Exposure:Prolonged skin contact may defat the skin and producedermatitis.Chronic exposure may cause central nervous system effects.Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems orimpairedrespiratory function may be more susceptible to the effectsofthesubstance. Regards, -Doug Easton At 10:40 AM 6/11/2000 -0500, nobler wrote:The EPA has listed so many chemicals that are dangerous toyourhealth,it'sat the point of being down right silly. Many of these "banned"chemicalsarebased on using them in a closed environment, at a ratio thatwouldamounttoa rat drinking them in drum quantities ! I used to buy MEK in 55gal.drums! You don't inhale the fumes, nor take a bath in it. However theEPAbasessuch rulings on an unsupervised child having access to them !It'sallpartof this insurance crazy/lawsuit world we have ! Between them,andthe"treehuggers", we soon will have nothing left but water based sub-parproducts! Just look what has happened to our old spar varnishes ! GMA----- Original Message -----From: "Lee Freeman" Cc: "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 3:36 AMSubject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4 Hey Fellas, I don't mean to be a doomsayer, but MEK has been PROVEN tobe aseriouscarcinogenic and was barred some years ago from use in, asoneinstance,military electronics. The Feds will close down any plant stillusingthatstuff. It is absorbed through the skin and is quite dangerous.DONOTfoolwith this stuff! I know its a great solvent, as were a fewotherbannedsolvents like carbon tetrachloride, but the damage to yourbodywon'thelpyou enjoy that nice silk line. When working with solvents ofanysort,don't forget you rubber gloves and the nice open and wellventilatedspaceto work in. Lee Freeman from nobler@satx.rr.com Mon Jun 12 08:17:57 2000 e5CDHuG03075 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:19:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4/rubber gloves Gloves can cause an even worse condition, in that a small cut in them, willallow the solvent inside, and you'll really get chemically burned badly !You must have very heavy, industrial chemical protectant gloves, if you mustexpose your hands to it. I've used hundreds of gallons of MEK, etc., andlearned early on ! You also use out in open air, NOT indoors ! GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4/rubber gloves Le,Unless you wear the really heavy gloves like for wood stripping thesolventswill go thru anyway. The thin surgical types are useless to stop thesolvent from penetrating.Bret from jwt4639@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Mon Jun 12 08:44:49 2000 e5CDimG04076 with ESMTPA id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:44:45 EDT Subject: Wooden Planing forms Drilled the holes for my wooden planing forms and have made one mistakethat I need advice on. I messed up on one of the push holes and need toknow if I can redrill it at a point not directly on the same line as thepull hole, or can I drill a hole a little higher and get adequateresults ? Jim Tefft from jwt4639@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Mon Jun 12 08:55:47 2000 e5CDtkG04576 with ESMTPA id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:55:46 EDT Subject: New Tapers for New Lines As a beginning rodmaker this is an interesting topic for me.I know about the various caches of old tapers on the list and in books.Are the new tapers being kept close to the vest or has there been somedocumentation ? I have been out of touch with the measuring, drilling, turning etc for anumber of years but the laying out of my wooden forms brought back howmuch I missed that type of tinkering. Glad I have a patient wife causeall that was done in her kitchen on the kitchen counter which currentlyis the available work space. Jim T from Canerods@aol.com Mon Jun 12 09:01:33 2000 e5CE1XG04901 Subject: Re: $500 RODS In a message dated 6/11/00 7:29:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ajthramer@hotmail.com writes: AJ,With the price of shorter old production rods heading for the $1,000range (Granger, Heddon and Phillipson - Leonard heading for the $2,000 range),your $500 rod is a bargain! Oops, I shouldn't say that until after I can afford to buy one! Of course, many of the the old production rods weren't all that bad casting, but a modern rod, like yours, is light-years ahead in fit and finish. I've told many people in my FF club that if they really wanted to buy a bamboo rod to look to a modern maker and don't mess around with a 9'0" flea market fixer- upper. Our club holds raffles at each monthly meeting - a rod, a reel and misc. others items are raffled off. Some are donated, others are purchased forthe raffle. Not enough money flows in monthly for a bamboo rod, but at theannual BBQ/picnic/auction lot's of items go for hundreds of dollars. If someone interested in marketing a low-cost rod offered FF clubs a discounted $500 or less rod as an auction piece for their annual club money- raiser function, he'd be busy all year round. IMHO, Don Burns from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Jun 12 10:42:50 2000 e5CFgnG08693 Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:42:40 -0700 Organization: First Baptist Church Subject: Re: Wooden Planing forms boundary="------------3685ED6860455F433168FA60" --------------3685ED6860455F433168FA60 Jim Tefft wrote: Drilled the holes for my wooden planing forms and have made one mistakethat I need advice on. I messed up on one of the push holes and need toknow if I can redrill it at a point not directly on the same line as thepull hole, or can I drill a hole a little higher and get adequateresults ? Jim Tefft Jim,If you drill the hole higher, there might be a chance that the pushingwould skew the angle of the forms. You might move it a little farther tothe side of the push screw.On my steel forms, I broke a tap off in one of the last push holes.Rather than starting over again, I just moved to the other side of the pushhole, and drilled another. Seems to work fine. Pat's rod was made on thoseforms. Original push Pull New push----- 5 inches ------- push pull--- etc.() O() () O Does this make sense? Harry --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ --------------3685ED6860455F433168FA60 Jim Tefft wrote:Drilled the holes for my wooden planing forms andhave made one mistakethat I need advice on. I messed up on one of the push holes and needtoknow if I can redrill it at a point not directly on the same line asthepull hole, or can I drill a hole a little higher and get adequateresults ?Jim Tefft Jim, it a little farther to the side of the push screw. pull --- etc. O --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ --------------3685ED6860455F433168FA60-- from dhaftel@att.com Mon Jun 12 11:53:56 2000 e5CGrtG11205 MAA15598; (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) (5.5.2650.21) "'RODMAKERS'" Subject: RE: Phillipson Smuggler Peter, You can find the taper in Frank Stetzer's Hexrod archives at:http://www.uwm.edu/cgi-bin/stetzer/hexrod-c.pl Good luck, Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: Phillipson Smuggler I have a Phillipson Smuggler which someone has done a tip swap on, andreplaced a broken(?) tip with a tip section from a very different Farlow'srod cut down.I would like to make a replacement tip for the rod; does anybody know thefigures for the Smuggler, please.Peter from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Jun 12 12:24:28 2000 e5CHORG12256 Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: Slik line bonanza part 4: UPDATE "'Rodmakers (E-mail)'" Importance: Normal Thank you to all who responded to my post about removing new varnish fromasilk line. The discussions about health concerns were intersting andeducational. I had decided to try MEK, following the health precautionssuggested by list members. When I arrived at the hardware store, I found aproduct called: Safest Stripper by 3M. According to the label, it worksbest on lacquers and varnishes. It requires no ventilation, it is notflammable, no gloves are required. Based on it's appearance, I'd say theactive ingredient is yogurt. They do say to avoid getting it in your eyes,though. So, I left a line soaking in it for half an hour, then passed it through aclean cloth and voila! the varnish is gone. I immersed the line in waterafter to rinse it clean. Seems to have done the trick. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 1:36 PM Subject: Slik line bonanza part 4 As some of you may remember, I came across eight nice silklines recently.I used Reed Curry's excellent baking soda and water techniqueto restorethem. Since I was unable to find tung varnish here, I decidedto mix my ownout of spar varnish and tung oil. I'm not happy with theresults so ordereda quart of Tung Varnish from Woodworker's Supply. I'vedecided to removethe finish I applied, once again using Reed's baking sodamethod. Problemis, the finish no longer comes off using this method. I letthe line soak suggestions? Thanks, Richard from piscator@crosswinds.net Mon Jun 12 13:49:57 2000 e5CInuG15641 (envelope- from piscator@crosswinds.net) Subject: Re: $500 RODS I think Bob Summers has a good take on this. He sells his rods and alsovariousgrades of old rods from South Bend on up. There's something for everypricerange, he's turning inventory and generating cash, and when his customesareready to make the jump to a custom rod he's right there ready to help them. Not that I'll ever be the rod maker Bob is, but I enjoy working on restorationwork because of the practice I get in a lot of skills I'll always need to getbetter at, like wrapping and varnishing. It also gives me a built in excuseto buy a rod that I know I won't keep, but still covet. "It's 'inventory,'Dear, I'm not buying this to fish with, just to sell." Brian I have been making a $500(retail) rod for the last five years. Not too hard to do but there is no time for 'custom' work. They are all built to a standard pattern and I offer only four models. I build them four at a time to cut the time to set up for each operation. I was curious when George tried to do the same thing, he admited that the only rods that would sell about $5-600 after that. I think that he underestimated how cantankerous bamboo is to work with. After seeing a few of them the result was dissapointing. No matter what the price the angling public won't accept junk, there is no lomger a market for the cheaper factory built type of rod. There is however a healthy market for quality production rods(ie: Heddon, Granger, Phillipson...)A builder has to address the challenge that interests him, alot of one at a time, perfect works of art seems to be the main focus now but those rods always had a limited market. George had a good idea but his lack of experience with bamboo and his somewhat contrary nature hampered him. To build a good base ofknowlegable buyers for high end cane I think that more builders might want to address the challenge of high quality production work. Without that I don't know where the high end market will incubate their future customer base.A.J.Thramer________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com from anglport@con2.com Mon Jun 12 14:04:52 2000 e5CJ4qG16426 ESMTP(SMTPD32-6.00) id A2379E202BA; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:55:51 -0400 bh887@lafn.org,rcurry@ttlc.net, richard.nantel@videotron.ca Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS)BOOOOOM!!! I can't remember where I read it, but I paid attention because my father-in- law had a SERIOUS heart condition and was stripping paint at the time, but I DID read that MEK was a real threat to people with potential heart attacks in their future. I wish I could be more specific, but if you have any heart problems, PLEASE check this out before using the junk!Art At 10:51 PM 06/11/2000 -0400, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:List,Be really careful when you use MEK or any of the HOT solvents. A numberofyears back there was a lady in the neighborhood who used to strip furnitureand refinish it. One day she was cleaning stripper off a piece with MEK(laquer thinner) and she had the furnace fire up (she was doing this in herbasement) BOOOOMMM she killed herself from the explosion and hadextensiveburns all over her body. I was a fireman at this time and it was one of theworst things I ever witnessed. GUYS BE CAREFUL WITH THESE THINGSADEQUATEVENTILATION AND EXPLOSION PROOF FANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!Bret from darrell@rockclimbing.org Mon Jun 12 14:11:09 2000 e5CJB8G16770 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: Safest Stripper - Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart "'Rodmakers (E-mail)'" Importance: Normal That stuff is the greatest... It's great for stripping varnish on rods forrestoration... I goop some on a rod, wrap the sections in plastic so it doesn't evaporateand let is sit an hour or so and the varnish usually comes off with oneapplication, unless it's got a lot of thick coats then a second applicationis sometimes needed... Good tip on the silk lines, I'll have to try it... Just finished adding the AFTMA conversion chart for silk fly lines one ofthe listers posted awhile back. I reformated it and added it to my website.Here's the page, please check it out to see if I made any bungles... www.vfish.net/silklinechart.htm Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Slik line bonanza part 4: UPDATE Thank you to all who responded to my post about removing new varnish fromasilk line. The discussions about health concerns were intersting andeducational. I had decided to try MEK, following the health precautionssuggested by list members. When I arrived at the hardware store, I found aproduct called: Safest Stripper by 3M. According to the label, it worksbest on lacquers and varnishes. It requires no ventilation, it is notflammable, no gloves are required. Based on it's appearance, I'd say theactive ingredient is yogurt. They do say to avoid getting it in your eyes,though. So, I left a line soaking in it for half an hour, then passed it through aclean cloth and voila! the varnish is gone. I immersed the line in waterafter to rinse it clean. Seems to have done the trick. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 1:36 PM Subject: Slik line bonanza part 4 As some of you may remember, I came across eight nice silklines recently.I used Reed Curry's excellent baking soda and water techniqueto restorethem. Since I was unable to find tung varnish here, I decidedto mix my ownout of spar varnish and tung oil. I'm not happy with theresults so ordereda quart of Tung Varnish from Woodworker's Supply. I'vedecided to removethe finish I applied, once again using Reed's baking sodamethod. Problemis, the finish no longer comes off using this method. I letthe line soak suggestions? Thanks, Richard from caneman@clnk.com Mon Jun 12 14:13:09 2000 e5CJD8G16888 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:08:33 -0500 , , , Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS)BOOOOOM!!! Boy, isn't it funny how all this info comes out a couple of decades aftereveryone gets soaked in this stuff! When I was in the Air Force, we cleanedM61-A1 barrels in MEK. Geez, we practically took a bath in this stuff 3 or4 times a week. Of course, that was before it was anything dangerous.Well, considering my blatant exposure to it, and my family history ofheart disease, then I guess I can say "To hell with this diet!!!" run to theGrocery store, get a couple of pounds of strawberries, some shortcake andacart full of whipped cream, cause I figure I'm gonna die anyways, prettysoon, now! Oh, Being of sound mine (questionable), I leave my planing formsto Harry, My scraper to Art and my beer recipe to Mike B. "To live healthy is to die healthy" ....some dead guy... Later,Bob :^)-----Original Message----- ; nobler@satx.rr.com ;bh887@lafn.org; rcurry@ttlc.net ;richard.nantel@videotron.ca Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS)BOOOOOM!!! I can't remember where I read it, but I paid attention because myfather-in- law had a SERIOUS heart condition and was stripping paint at thetime, but I DID read that MEK was a real threat to people with potentialheart attacks in their future. I wish I could be more specific, but if youhave any heart problems, PLEASE check this out before using the junk!Art At 10:51 PM 06/11/2000 -0400, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:List,Be really careful when you use MEK or any of the HOT solvents. A numberofyears back there was a lady in the neighborhood who used to stripfurnitureand refinish it. One day she was cleaning stripper off a piece with MEK(laquer thinner) and she had the furnace fire up (she was doing this inherbasement) BOOOOMMM she killed herself from the explosion and hadextensiveburns all over her body. I was a fireman at this time and it was one oftheworst things I ever witnessed. GUYS BE CAREFUL WITH THESE THINGSADEQUATEVENTILATION AND EXPLOSION PROOF FANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!Bret from caneman@clnk.com Mon Jun 12 14:17:23 2000 e5CJHMG17108 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:12:48 -0500 "'Rodmakers (E-mail)'" Subject: Re: Safest Stripper - Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart On GMA's advice, (I think it was you George) I used Citristrip to strip acouple of old rods. The stuff did a good job and was nice to have the shopsmell like orange peels instead of Aircraft stripper. Bob-----Original Message----- (E-mail)' Subject: Safest Stripper - Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart That stuff is the greatest... It's great for stripping varnish on rods forrestoration... I goop some on a rod, wrap the sections in plastic so it doesn't evaporateand let is sit an hour or so and the varnish usually comes off with oneapplication, unless it's got a lot of thick coats then a second applicationis sometimes needed... Good tip on the silk lines, I'll have to try it... Just finished adding the AFTMA conversion chart for silk fly lines one ofthe listers posted awhile back. I reformated it and added it to my website.Here's the page, please check it out to see if I made any bungles... www.vfish.net/silklinechart.htm Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: RE: Slik line bonanza part 4: UPDATE Thank you to all who responded to my post about removing new varnish from asilk line. The discussions about health concerns were intersting andeducational. I had decided to try MEK, following the health precautionssuggested by list members. When I arrived at the hardware store, I found aproduct called: Safest Stripper by 3M. According to the label, it worksbest on lacquers and varnishes. It requires no ventilation, it is notflammable, no gloves are required. Based on it's appearance, I'd say theactive ingredient is yogurt. They do say to avoid getting it in your eyes,though. So, I left a line soaking in it for half an hour, then passed it through aclean cloth and voila! the varnish is gone. I immersed the line in waterafter to rinse it clean. Seems to have done the trick. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 1:36 PM Subject: Slik line bonanza part 4 As some of you may remember, I came across eight nice silklines recently.I used Reed Curry's excellent baking soda and water techniqueto restorethem. Since I was unable to find tung varnish here, I decidedto mix my ownout of spar varnish and tung oil. I'm not happy with theresults so ordereda quart of Tung Varnish from Woodworker's Supply. I'vedecided to removethe finish I applied, once again using Reed's baking sodamethod. Problemis, the finish no longer comes off using this method. I letthe line soak suggestions? Thanks, Richard from steve@hamiltonrods.com Mon Jun 12 14:18:22 2000 e5CJILG17239 codemarine.209.170.128.193 with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet MailService Version 5.5.2448.0) Subject: Attic as a rod "closet"? e5CJIMG17240 I live in a very humid climate. As such, I'm worried about moisture creepinginto my rods over time. I have been storing my rods in the trunk of my car intheir rod tubes with the caps off. I had one test rod that I stored "naked"(not inside anything) on my garage workbench. That rod now easily takes aset when fishing, but that might be due to incorrect heat treating duringconstruction rather than reentrant moisture. I'd like to store my rods in a warm dry rod closet. My plan has always been tobuy a storage closet and put a space heater in the bottom of it and a coupleof vent holes in the top. Anyone else done that successfully? However, warm isn't hard to acheive around here--it's the dry that's difficultto get. I went up into my attic the other day an it was certainly warm enough(around 115 degrees F), but I'm not sure about the humidity--it felt dry butwho knows. What I'm considering doing instead of building a closet is hangingthe rod bags up in the attic and perhaps putting a bucket of DampRidbeneath them. Would that work? Any advice? --Steve from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Jun 12 14:27:09 2000 e5CJR8G17700 Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: Slik line bonanza part 4: UPDATE Importance: Normal It seems your common sense has exceeded the collective wisdomand sidetracksof this group . :)) Common sense? You over estimate my abilities my friend. I knew nothing ofthis product and tried it purely because it was at eye level on a shelf andit had a catchy name. Glad I found it, though. I've just stripped threelines and it worked beautifully. Richard from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Jun 12 15:13:23 2000 e5CKDMG19438 Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:13:17 -0700 Organization: First Baptist Church Subject: Re: Attic as a rod "closet"? Steve Zimmerman wrote: What I'm considering doing instead of building a closet is hanging the rodbags up in the attic and perhaps putting a bucket of DampRid beneath them.Would that work? Steve,Some of the heating & a/c guys on here can tell you more than I can, but Iremember Wayne C. telling me that to effectively remove humidity, you haveto raise the ambient temperature by a certain number of degrees for eachpercentage point of humidity. To remove any moisture from bamboo downhere in Louisiana, I had to get the temperature up to 145*F in the high heatand humidity of the summer. Attic temperatures hereroutinely reach 180-210*F in summer, so that may be a good solution.Far simpler, though, is just storing the rods in a piece of pvc pipe alongwith some silica gel dessicant. Harry--"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Jun 12 15:16:26 2000 e5CKGPG19590 Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:16:22 -0700 Organization: First Baptist Church Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS)BOOOOOM!!! Bob Nunley wrote: .....cause I figure I'm gonna die anyways, pretty soon, now! Oh, Being ofsound mine (questionable), I leave my planing forms to Harry, My scrapertoArt and my beer recipe to Mike B. Bob,To hell with your forms. I already got forms. I want your Harley!!! LMAO,Harry --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Jun 12 15:44:23 2000 e5CKiNG20504 Subject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS)BOOOOOM!!! Art,You might of answered a question that has not been able to be answered. Ihad twoheart attacks in 1988 and they could find no physical reason for me havingthem.Will have to talk to my cardiologist about the MEK.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Art Port wrote: I can't remember where I read it, but I paid attention because myfather-in- law had a SERIOUS heart condition and was stripping paint at thetime, but I DID read that MEK was a real threat to people with potentialheart attacks in their future. I wish I could be more specific, but if youhave any heart problems, PLEASE check this out before using the junk!Art At 10:51 PM 06/11/2000 -0400, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:List,Be really careful when you use MEK or any of the HOT solvents. A numberofyears back there was a lady in the neighborhood who used to stripfurnitureand refinish it. One day she was cleaning stripper off a piece with MEK(laquer thinner) and she had the furnace fire up (she was doing this in herbasement) BOOOOMMM she killed herself from the explosion and hadextensiveburns all over her body. I was a fireman at this time and it was one of theworst things I ever witnessed. GUYS BE CAREFUL WITH THESE THINGSADEQUATEVENTILATION AND EXPLOSION PROOF FANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!Bret from fiveside@net-gate.com Mon Jun 12 16:14:57 2000 e5CLEuG21505 Subject: Re: Taper Hi Shawn,As you can tell from my address I have a strong interest in pentas and thebest tapers that I developed are for a 7'3'' wt 4 and a 7'6'' wt 5. Theserods are fairly fast action to suit my fishing style and have safe stresslevels. If you are interested I will be happy to send them.When specifying penta tapers it is important to specify which of the threerelated diameters you are dealing with. There is the measured diameter(it'snot really a diameter) that you can mike, the inner diameter which you use I sent this back a while ago and i think the list was having problems atthat time and it never made it through so I'm re sending it. Hope itgets some responses this time. Also if anyone has any penta tapers feelfree to send those to me! TIA Hey guys,while looking through a book tonight I found an articlewhich contained a taper for a Penta rod that I believe might have beenwritten by Claude M Kreider? The taper doesn't appear to be in his bookthough.It is supposed to be a strong 5 sided rod at 8'0" It doesn't say what wtit is for but the ferrule is a 14/64 so I'm going to guess that it is I'll post it here and maybe someone will recognize thetaper and be able to give us some info on the rod. The taper is on6"stations. If anyone builds it let me know how it goes. BUTT TIP0 .360 .2356 .360 .22012 .360 .20018 .340 .18024 .320 .16030 .295 .14036 .275 .12042 .250 .09548 .235 .075 Hopefully this rings a bell with someone out there. Enjoy, Shawn I sent this back a while ago and i think the list was having problems atthat time and it never made it through so I'm re sending it. Hope it getssome responses this time. Also if anyone has any penta tapers feel freeto send those to me! TIAHey guys, while looking through a book tonight I found an article which containeda taper for a Penta rod that I believe might have been written by ClaudeM Kreider? The taper doesn't appear to be in his book though.It is supposed to be a strong 5 sided rod at 8'0" It doesn't say whatwt it is for but the ferrule is a 14/64 so I'm going to guess that it is I'll post it here and maybe someone will recognize the taper and be ableto give us some info on the rod. The taper is on 6"stations. If anyonebuilds it let me know how it goes. TIP .235 .220 .200 .180 .160 .140 .120 .095 .075Hopefully this rings a bell with someone out there. Enjoy, Shawn from bh887@lafn.org Mon Jun 12 16:26:58 2000 e5CLQvG21962 (envelope- from bh887@lafn.org) "'Rodmakers (E-mail)'" Subject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4: UPDATE That's the same stuff Sinclair recommends in his book. Nice to hear itworks so well. Lee----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Slik line bonanza part 4: UPDATE Thank you to all who responded to my post about removing new varnishfromasilk line. The discussions about health concerns were intersting andeducational. I had decided to try MEK, following the health precautionssuggested by list members. When I arrived at the hardware store, I found aproduct called: Safest Stripper by 3M. According to the label, it worksbest on lacquers and varnishes. It requires no ventilation, it is notflammable, no gloves are required. Based on it's appearance, I'd say theactive ingredient is yogurt. They do say to avoid getting it in your eyes,though. So, I left a line soaking in it for half an hour, then passed it through aclean cloth and voila! the varnish is gone. I immersed the line in waterafter to rinse it clean. Seems to have done the trick. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 1:36 PM Subject: Slik line bonanza part 4 As some of you may remember, I came across eight nice silklines recently.I used Reed Curry's excellent baking soda and water techniqueto restorethem. Since I was unable to find tung varnish here, I decidedto mix my ownout of spar varnish and tung oil. I'm not happy with theresults so ordereda quart of Tung Varnish from Woodworker's Supply. I'vedecided to removethe finish I applied, once again using Reed's baking sodamethod. Problemis, the finish no longer comes off using this method. I letthe line soak suggestions? Thanks, Richard from DNHayashida@aol.com Mon Jun 12 16:32:51 2000 e5CLWoG22408 Subject: Re: Orvis braided leaders on level silk lines I tried the candle stub on the Orvis braided leader, but I wasn't too taken byit. The wax left little white flakes on the leader, and when I tried to rub themin most of the time I just wiped them off. So, I tried beeswax. It's a lotsofter and stickier than candle wax. Beeswax works quite well, it even leavesa nice slick surface after rubbing it in a bit. The leader floats quite well. Idon't know how long the floatability will last, I guess I will find out on my nextfishing trip.Darryl from nobler@satx.rr.com Mon Jun 12 16:56:01 2000 e5CLu0G23394 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:42:23 -0500 "'Rodmakers \(E-mail\)'" Subject: Re: Slik line bonanza part 4: UPDATE This is one of the strippers Mike Sinclair uses. Gentle stuff ! GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Slik line bonanza part 4: UPDATE Thank you to all who responded to my post about removing new varnishfromasilk line. The discussions about health concerns were intersting andeducational. I had decided to try MEK, following the health precautionssuggested by list members. When I arrived at the hardware store, I found aproduct called: Safest Stripper by 3M. According to the label, it worksbest on lacquers and varnishes. It requires no ventilation, it is notflammable, no gloves are required. Based on it's appearance, I'd say theactive ingredient is yogurt. They do say to avoid getting it in your eyes,though. So, I left a line soaking in it for half an hour, then passed it through aclean cloth and voila! the varnish is gone. I immersed the line in waterafter to rinse it clean. Seems to have done the trick. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 1:36 PM Subject: Slik line bonanza part 4 As some of you may remember, I came across eight nice silklines recently.I used Reed Curry's excellent baking soda and water techniqueto restorethem. Since I was unable to find tung varnish here, I decidedto mix my ownout of spar varnish and tung oil. I'm not happy with theresults so ordereda quart of Tung Varnish from Woodworker's Supply. I'vedecided to removethe finish I applied, once again using Reed's baking sodamethod. Problemis, the finish no longer comes off using this method. I letthe line soak suggestions? Thanks, Richard from nobler@satx.rr.com Mon Jun 12 17:06:23 2000 e5CM6MG23766 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:52:40 -0500 ,"'Rodmakers \(E-mail\)'" Subject: Re: Safest Stripper - Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart I got the first Citristrip, sort of like Richard, just saw it had no badstuff and tried it, as I couldn't find the Safest Stripper. My wife laterfound it, and I've tried both. The Citristrip works faster, but both do agood job, and are safe. GMA----- Original Message ----- (E-mail)'" Subject: Re: Safest Stripper - Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart On GMA's advice, (I think it was you George) I used Citristrip to strip acouple of old rods. The stuff did a good job and was nice to have theshopsmell like orange peels instead of Aircraft stripper. Bob-----Original Message-----From: Darrell A. Lee 'Rodmakers(E-mail)' Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 2:06 PMSubject: Safest Stripper - Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart That stuff is the greatest... It's great for stripping varnish on rodsforrestoration... I goop some on a rod, wrap the sections in plastic so it doesn'tevaporateand let is sit an hour or so and the varnish usually comes off with oneapplication, unless it's got a lot of thick coats then a secondapplicationis sometimes needed... Good tip on the silk lines, I'll have to try it... Just finished adding the AFTMA conversion chart for silk fly lines one ofthe listers posted awhile back. I reformated it and added it to mywebsite.Here's the page, please check it out to see if I made any bungles... www.vfish.net/silklinechart.htm Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: RE: Slik line bonanza part 4: UPDATE Thank you to all who responded to my post about removing new varnishfromasilk line. The discussions about health concerns were intersting andeducational. I had decided to try MEK, following the health precautionssuggested by list members. When I arrived at the hardware store, I foundaproduct called: Safest Stripper by 3M. According to the label, it worksbest on lacquers and varnishes. It requires no ventilation, it is notflammable, no gloves are required. Based on it's appearance, I'd say theactive ingredient is yogurt. They do say to avoid getting it in youreyes,though. So, I left a line soaking in it for half an hour, then passed it throughaclean cloth and voila! the varnish is gone. I immersed the line in waterafter to rinse it clean. Seems to have done the trick. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu NantelSent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 1:36 PM Subject: Slik line bonanza part 4 As some of you may remember, I came across eight nice silklines recently.I used Reed Curry's excellent baking soda and water techniqueto restorethem. Since I was unable to find tung varnish here, I decidedto mix my ownout of spar varnish and tung oil. I'm not happy with theresults so ordereda quart of Tung Varnish from Woodworker's Supply. I'vedecided to removethe finish I applied, once again using Reed's baking sodamethod. Problemis, the finish no longer comes off using this method. I letthe line soak suggestions? Thanks, Richard from nobler@satx.rr.com Mon Jun 12 17:08:43 2000 e5CM8gG23932 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:55:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Attic as a rod "closet"? I just keep mine in an A/C house, in a dark closet, and never put one upuntil it's had several days to dry, after fishing. No problems so far. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Attic as a rod "closet"? I live in a very humid climate. As such, I'm worried about moisturecreeping into my rods over time. I have been storing my rods in the trunk ofmy car in their rod tubes with the caps off. I had one test rod that Istored "naked" (not inside anything) on my garage workbench. That rod noweasily takes a set when fishing, but that might be due to incorrect heattreating during construction rather than reentrant moisture. I'd like to store my rods in a warm dry rod closet. My plan has alwaysbeen to buy a storage closet and put a space heater in the bottom of it anda couple of vent holes in the top. Anyone else done that successfully? However, warm isn't hard to acheive around here--it's the dry that'sdifficult to get. I went up into my attic the other day an it was certainlywarm enough (around 115 degrees F), but I'm not sure about the humidity--itfelt dry but who knows. What I'm considering doing instead of building acloset is hanging the rod bags up in the attic and perhaps putting a bucketof DampRid beneath them. Would that work? Any advice? --Steve from caneman@clnk.com Mon Jun 12 17:27:48 2000 e5CMRlG24610 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com for ;Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:23:13 -0500 Subject: Tip Top needs... Hardy boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0168_01BFD493.7CD9E900" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0168_01BFD493.7CD9E900 List,Would anyone happen to have a source for a Hardy Tip top, from Who =Know's what era. The tip top I am missing appears to be NS with a clear =glass insert. If anyone thinks they may have a match for me, email me =off list and I'll try to send you an image of it so we can see if what =you have matches. I need this to complete a restoration, so PLEASE if =you have a junk box, look through it. Thanks,Bob ------=_NextPart_000_0168_01BFD493.7CD9E900 List, = email me off list and I'll try to send you an image of it so we can see = have a junk box, look through it. Thanks,Bob ------=_NextPart_000_0168_01BFD493.7CD9E900-- from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Jun 12 18:06:05 2000 e5CN65G25432 (SMTPD32-6.00) id AE045A7300E8; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:11:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Orvis braided leaders on level silk lines Darryl,I've found that it floats for several trips. I guess that depends ontemperature.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: I tried the candle stub on the Orvis braided leader, but I wasn't too taken them in most of the time I just wiped them off. So, I tried beeswax. It's a lotsofter and stickier than candle wax. Beeswax works quite well, it even leavesa nice slick surface after rubbing it in a bit. The leader floats quite well. Idon't know how long the floatability will last, I guess I will find out on my nextfishing trip.Darryl from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Jun 12 18:16:36 2000 e5CNGZG25624 (SMTPD32-6.00) id A0687247007C; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:21:12 -0400 "'Rodmakers (E-mail)'" Subject: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart Darrell,I find the chart is similar to many others, it tries to compare somethingbased purely on weight to something based purely on diameter. This is akin toassuming that Michael Jordan should play for the Green Bay Packers, basedonweight. We should probably use Specific Gravity, ala, J.A.K.I use an HCF on a five weight, a GAF on a six wt., an HEH on a four weight,etc.How do you convert a Hedge taper which has a 24' front taper?Tremendous variation also in varnish weight, braid pattern, etc. Use ofsuch a chart would only lead people to conclude that either their rod is atfault, or their line, when they get a mismatch. Just a thought.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ "Darrell A. Lee" wrote: Just finished adding the AFTMA conversion chart for silk fly lines one ofthe listers posted awhile back. I reformated it and added it to my website.Here's the page, please check it out to see if I made any bungles... www.vfish.net/silklinechart.htm Darrellwww.vfish.net from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Jun 12 18:45:48 2000 e5CNjgG26085 Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:45:22 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods nobler@satx.rr.com, bh887@lafn.org, rcurry@ttlc.net,richard.nantel@videotron.ca, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS)BOOOOOM!!! Bob,is there a Harley there with my name on it?? ;^)Shawn Pineo Bob Nunley wrote: Boy, isn't it funny how all this info comes out a couple of decades aftereveryone gets soaked in this stuff! When I was in the Air Force, wecleanedM61-A1 barrels in MEK. Geez, we practically took a bath in this stuff 3 or4 times a week. Of course, that was before it was anything dangerous.Well, considering my blatant exposure to it, and my family history ofheart disease, then I guess I can say "To hell with this diet!!!" run to theGrocery store, get a couple of pounds of strawberries, some shortcakeand acart full of whipped cream, cause I figure I'm gonna die anyways, prettysoon, now! Oh, Being of sound mine (questionable), I leave my planing formsto Harry, My scraper to Art and my beer recipe to Mike B. "To live healthy is to die healthy" ....some dead guy... Later,Bob :^)-----Original Message-----From: Art Port ; nobler@satx.rr.com ;bh887@lafn.org; rcurry@ttlc.net ;richard.nantel@videotron.ca Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 2:00 PMSubject: Re: Silk line bonanza part 4 (MEK HAZARDS)BOOOOOM!!! I can't remember where I read it, but I paid attention because myfather-in- law had a SERIOUS heart condition and was stripping paint at thetime, but I DID read that MEK was a real threat to people with potentialheart attacks in their future. I wish I could be more specific, but if youhave any heart problems, PLEASE check this out before using the junk!Art At 10:51 PM 06/11/2000 -0400, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:List,Be really careful when you use MEK or any of the HOT solvents. Anumberofyears back there was a lady in the neighborhood who used to stripfurnitureand refinish it. One day she was cleaning stripper off a piece with MEK(laquer thinner) and she had the furnace fire up (she was doing this inherbasement) BOOOOMMM she killed herself from the explosion and hadextensiveburns all over her body. I was a fireman at this time and it was one oftheworst things I ever witnessed. GUYS BE CAREFUL WITH THESE THINGSADEQUATEVENTILATION AND EXPLOSION PROOF FANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!Bret from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Jun 12 18:52:31 2000 e5CNqUG26297 Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:52:12 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Taper Bill,thanks. I will keep that in mind. I never even noticed it before but bothKreider's book and the article only state the one dimension so I'm not surewhich dimension he is talking about.I would love any penta tapers you could provide.ShawnPineo Bill Fink wrote: Hi Shawn,As you can tell from my address I have a strong interest in pentas and thebest tapers that I developed are for a 7'3'' wt 4 and a 7'6'' wt 5. Theserods are fairly fast action to suit my fishing style and have safe stresslevels. If you are interested I will be happy to send them.When specifying penta tapers it is important to specify which of thethreerelated diameters you are dealing with. There is the measureddiameter(it'snot really a diameter) that you can mike, the inner diameter which you use I sent this back a while ago and i think the list was having problems atthat time and it never made it through so I'm re sending it. Hope itgets some responses this time. Also if anyone has any penta tapers feelfree to send those to me! TIA Hey guys,while looking through a book tonight I found an articlewhich contained a taper for a Penta rod that I believe might have beenwritten by Claude M Kreider? The taper doesn't appear to be in his bookthough.It is supposed to be a strong 5 sided rod at 8'0" It doesn't say what wtit is for but the ferrule is a 14/64 so I'm going to guess that it is I'll post it here and maybe someone will recognize thetaper and be able to give us some info on the rod. The taper is on6"stations. If anyone builds it let me know how it goes. BUTT TIP0 .360 .2356 .360 .22012 .360 .20018 .340 .18024 .320 .16030 .295 .14036 .275 .12042 .250 .09548 .235 .075 Hopefully this rings a bell with someone out there. Enjoy, Shawn I sent this back a while ago and i think the list was having problems atthat time and it never made it through so I'm re sending it. Hope it getssome responses this time. Also if anyone has any penta tapers feel freeto send those to me! TIAHey guys, while looking through a book tonight I found an article which containeda taper for a Penta rod that I believe might have been written by ClaudeM Kreider? The taper doesn't appear to be in his book though.It is supposed to be a strong 5 sided rod at 8'0" It doesn't say whatwt it is for but the ferrule is a 14/64 so I'm going to guess that it is I'll post it here and maybe someone will recognize the taper and be ableto give us some info on the rod. The taper is on 6"stations. If anyonebuilds it let me know how it goes. TIP .235 .220 .200 .180 .160 .140 .120 .095 .075Hopefully this rings a bell with someone out there. Enjoy, Shawn from nobler@satx.rr.com Mon Jun 12 19:21:53 2000 e5D0LqG26751 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:23:07 -0500 "'Rodmakers \(E-mail\)'" Subject: Re: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart Reed, weren't all the early lines from silk, based or rated by a weight perso many feet of a certain diameter ? While the larger plastic lines arelighter per diameter, isn't it the weight that's past the tip that does theloading for proper balance ? Are the plastic lines graded, lets say as a "C", for their weight/diameter,(arbitrary, or "X" amount of feet) or by the diameter it takes to equal theweight of a "C" line in silk ? What I'm getting at, is that one brand of WF-5, may weigh more than thesameline in another brand ??? This can get expensive, unless you have a largeselection of similar lines. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart Darrell,I find the chart is similar to many others, it tries to comparesomethingbased purely on weight to something based purely on diameter. This is akintoassuming that Michael Jordan should play for the Green Bay Packers, basedonweight. We should probably use Specific Gravity, ala, J.A.K.I use an HCF on a five weight, a GAF on a six wt., an HEH on a fourweight,etc.How do you convert a Hedge taper which has a 24' front taper?Tremendous variation also in varnish weight, braid pattern, etc. Useofsuch a chart would only lead people to conclude that either their rod isatfault, or their line, when they get a mismatch. Just a thought.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ "Darrell A. Lee" wrote: Just finished adding the AFTMA conversion chart for silk fly lines oneofthe listers posted awhile back. I reformated it and added it to mywebsite.Here's the page, please check it out to see if I made any bungles... www.vfish.net/silklinechart.htm Darrellwww.vfish.net from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Mon Jun 12 20:46:13 2000 e5D1kAG27835 Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:42:36 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) RodMakers Subject: RE: Attic as a rod "closet"? Hi Steve,I'd be inclined to hang the rods in a heated drying cabinet for afew days and then store them in a pvc tube with some silica gel. Make surethe end caps seal really well. Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: Attic as a rod "closet"? I live in a very humid climate. As such, I'm worried about moisture creepinginto my rods over time. I have been storing my rods in the trunk of my carin their rod tubes with the caps off. I had one test rod that I stored"naked" (not inside anything) on my garage workbench. That rod now easilytakes a set when fishing, but that might be due to incorrect heat treatingduring construction rather than reentrant moisture. I'd like to store my rods in a warm dry rod closet. My plan has always beento buy a storage closet and put a space heater in the bottom of it and acouple of vent holes in the top. Anyone else done that successfully? However, warm isn't hard to acheive around here--it's the dry that'sdifficult to get. I went up into my attic the other day an it was certainlywarm enough (around 115 degrees F), but I'm not sure about the humidity--itfelt dry but who knows. What I'm considering doing instead of building acloset is hanging the rod bags up in the attic and perhaps putting a bucketof DampRid beneath them. Would that work? Any advice? --Steve from Canerods@aol.com Tue Jun 13 01:59:54 2000 e5D6xsG01518 Subject: Re: Safest Stripper - Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 6/12/00 12:11:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, darrell@rockclimbing.org writes: I believe it's Papaya - same stuff as in meat tenderizer. Just joking. It does work well. Don Burns from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Tue Jun 13 02:55:21 2000 e5D7tJG02028 Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:52:49 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) Subject: Cortland silk line braiding machines Reed,I think it was you who mentioned a couple of days ago that Cortlandhad several silk line braiding machines "lying around". Do you have any be very interested if they had a "fire sale" on them.I must also congratulate you on your great web page too. Damnedfine effort !! Best regards Mike from bassmeister_2000@yahoo.com Tue Jun 13 08:36:51 2000 e5DDaoG06466 2000 06:36:46 PDT Subject: re: Attic Hi all,I just came across this and figfured I'd pass it on. Drieriteis a product made by a co. in Ohio. It eliminates moisture to-100 degrees F. The card I got in the mail shows differentcontainers with varying thicknesses of grains. Send of fax for afree catalog.W.A. Hammond Drierite Co.PO Box 460Xenia, OH 45385Phone 937-376-2927Fax 937-376-1977Of course there's no affiliation between me and them. I'venever even been to Ohio! Also, in regard to the short thread about musical instruments. My son takes sax lessons every Sat. I usually hang out at theshop and read whatever is lying around. The reeds used in windinstruments are very big business with the best cane for thispurpose being grown in France. One catalog showed the entireprocess with excellent pix and descriptions. Very interesting!regards,Joe =====Joe MulveyStoneham, MAwww.mulvey.eboard.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!http://photos.yahoo.com from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Jun 13 09:02:18 2000 e5DE2HG07389 (SMTPD32-6.00) id AFF246FD008C; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:06:42 -0400 "'Rodmakers (E-mail)'" Subject: Re: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart boundary="------------8C18B4DB2BAEBD6A9E0AF3F4" --------------8C18B4DB2BAEBD6A9E0AF3F4 George,See below in italics, underlined.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: Reed, weren't all the early lines from silk, based or rated by a weight perso many feet of a certain diameter ? Alas, no. They were only rated by diameter. And the English used a differentscale than the U.S., so an English Halford line (long one of the most popularover here) of size H was closer to an American G. Hardy used an evendifferentscale and their C would be our E. While the larger plastic lines arelighter per diameter, isn't it the weight that's past the tip that does theloading for proper balance ? Correct, however, air resistance plays a significant role in casting. Thus athin, dense line will cast much more easily than a larger diameter line of thesame weight. Are the plastic lines graded, lets say as a "C", for their weight/diameter,(arbitrary, or "X" amount of feet) or by the diameter it takes to equal theweight of a "C" line in silk ? I don't quite understand. The modern AFTMA system is based soley upon theweightof the first 30' of line, exclusive of any level line before the taper. Theyshould have, IMHO, adopted a method that gave the weight/volume of thefirst30'. But they may have sondiered that too restrictive. What I'm getting at, is that one brand of WF-5, may weigh more than thesameline in another brand ??? This can get expensive, unless you have a largeselection of similar lines. All WF5 should weigh the same amount +/- a small percentage. But, becauseonemay be more dense than another, they will not cast the same. GMA----- Original Message -----From: "reed curry" Cc: ; "'Rodmakers (E-mail)'" Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:14 PMSubject: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart Darrell,I find the chart is similar to many others, it tries to comparesomethingbased purely on weight to something based purely on diameter. This isakintoassuming that Michael Jordan should play for the Green Bay Packers,basedonweight. We should probably use Specific Gravity, ala, J.A.K.I use an HCF on a five weight, a GAF on a six wt., an HEH on a fourweight,etc.How do you convert a Hedge taper which has a 24' front taper?Tremendous variation also in varnish weight, braid pattern, etc. Useofsuch a chart would only lead people to conclude that either their rod isatfault, or their line, when they get a mismatch. Just a thought.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ "Darrell A. Lee" wrote: Just finished adding the AFTMA conversion chart for silk fly lines oneofthe listers posted awhile back. I reformated it and added it to mywebsite.Here's the page, please check it out to see if I made any bungles... www.vfish.net/silklinechart.htm Darrellwww.vfish.net --------------8C18B4DB2BAEBD6A9E0AF3F4 George, --Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote:Reed, weren't all the early lines from silk, basedor rated by a weight perso many feet of a certain diameter ?Alas, no. They were only rated by diameter. And the English useda different scale than the U.S., so an English Halford line (long one ofthe most popular over here) of size H was closer to an American G. Hardyused an even different scale and their C would be our E.While the larger plastic lines arelighter per diameter, isn't it the weight that's past the tip thatdoes theloading for proper balance ?Correct, however, air resistance plays a significant role in casting.Thus a thin, dense line will cast much more easily than a larger diameterline of the same weight. Are the plastic lines graded, lets say as a "C", for their weight/diameter,(arbitrary, or "X" amount of feet) or by the diameter it takes to equaltheweight of a "C" line in silk ? I don't quite understand. The modern AFTMA system is based soleyupon the weight of the first 30' of line, exclusive of any level line beforethe taper. They should have, IMHO, adopted a method that gave theweight/volumeof the first 30'. But they may have sondiered that too restrictive. What I'm getting at, is that one brand of WF-5, may weigh more thanthe same have a largeselection of similar lines. All WF5 should weigh the same amount +/- a small percentage. But,because one may be more dense than another, they will not cast thesame. GMA----- Original Message -----From: "reed curry" <rcurry@ttlc.net> Cc: <richard.nantel@videotron.ca>; "'Rodmakers (E- mail)'"<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:14 PMSubject: Silk Fly Line AFTMA ChartDarrell, it tries to comparesomethingbased purely on weight to something based purely on diameter. Thisis akintoassuming that Michael Jordan should play for the Green Bay Packers,basedonweight. We should probably use Specific Gravity, ala, J.A.K. six wt., an HEH on a fourweight,etc. hasa 24' front taper? weight,braid pattern, etc. Useofsuch a chart would only lead people to conclude that either theirrod isatfault, or their line, when they get a mismatch. Just a thought.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ "Darrell A. Lee" wrote: Just finished adding the AFTMA conversion chart for silk fly linesoneofthe listers posted awhile back. I reformated it and added it tomywebsite.Here's the page, please check it out to see if I made any bungles... www.vfish.net/silklinechart.htm Darrellwww.vfish.net --------------8C18B4DB2BAEBD6A9E0AF3F4-- from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Jun 13 09:14:46 2000 e5DEEjG08195 (SMTPD32-6.00) id A2E15A690106; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:19:13 -0400 Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George,Through an intermediary, some of us enquired about getting one of themachines. There was a lack of response.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk lines again ? GMA from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Jun 13 09:32:40 2000 e5DEWdG08786 Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:32:34 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods Is there a way of sending Cortland a sort of online petition/show ofinterest from all of us? That might spur at least a limited production run?Perhaps someone with a little more computer savvy than I could answer this. Shawn Pineo reed curry wrote: George,Through an intermediary, some of us enquired about getting one of themachines. There was a lack of response.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk lines again ? GMA from darrell@rockclimbing.org Tue Jun 13 10:38:49 2000 e5DFcmG10620 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart Importance: Normal Reed, Lately, I have been asked how to determine the line weights several times,so I copied Danny T.'s post of a couple of months ago that had this chartlisted. The chart is good if someone has a unused vintage silk line that hasthe line weight listed so they can get a rough idea as to the approximateline weight... Certainly the chart can only be a STARTING POINT, but it's astart. I did put a disclaimer at the bottom of the chart so that hopefully peoplewill not take the chart as gospel. If you have a formula, I'd be happy to add it to the chart... but as youpointed out, with the wide variances in taper design, construction, weight,varnish, finish, I don't believe any one formula would be entirelyaccurate... As with plastic lines today, people have to cast the rod and line togetherand experiment in order to find what works best for the line, rod, castingstyle, etc. plus all the intangible factors... Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message----- Subject: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart Darrell,I find the chart is similar to many others, it tries to comparesomethingbased purely on weight to something based purely on diameter. This is akintoassuming that Michael Jordan should play for the Green Bay Packers, basedonweight. We should probably use Specific Gravity, ala, J.A.K.I use an HCF on a five weight, a GAF on a six wt., an HEH on a fourweight,etc.How do you convert a Hedge taper which has a 24' front taper?Tremendous variation also in varnish weight, braid pattern, etc. Use ofsuch a chart would only lead people to conclude that either their rod is atfault, or their line, when they get a mismatch. Just a thought.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ "Darrell A. Lee" wrote: Just finished adding the AFTMA conversion chart for silk fly lines one ofthe listers posted awhile back. I reformated it and added it to mywebsite.Here's the page, please check it out to see if I made any bungles... www.vfish.net/silklinechart.htm Darrellwww.vfish.net from tklein@amgen.com Tue Jun 13 11:17:40 2000 e5DGHdG12031 smtp.amgen.com via smap (V4.2) Subject: Reeds - was RE: Attic Isn't it Jack Howell who mentioned in his book that he came to rod buildingthrough reed making?---Timx11512 ----------From: Joe Mulvey[SMTP:bassmeister_2000@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 7:36 AM Subject: re: Attic Hi all,I just came across this and figfured I'd pass it on. Drieriteis a product made by a co. in Ohio. It eliminates moisture to-100 degrees F. The card I got in the mail shows differentcontainers with varying thicknesses of grains. Send of fax for afree catalog.W.A. Hammond Drierite Co.PO Box 460Xenia, OH 45385Phone 937-376-2927Fax 937-376-1977Of course there's no affiliation between me and them. I'venever even been to Ohio! Also, in regard to the short thread about musical instruments. My son takes sax lessons every Sat. I usually hang out at theshop and read whatever is lying around. The reeds used in windinstruments are very big business with the best cane for thispurpose being grown in France. One catalog showed the entireprocess with excellent pix and descriptions. Very interesting!regards,Joe =====Joe MulveyStoneham, MAwww.mulvey.eboard.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!http://photos.yahoo.com from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Jun 13 11:27:38 2000 e5DGRQG12493 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Math quiz Here's a good one for all you math experts. What is the formula forconverting "flat to flat dimensions" to "apex to apex dimensions". I amspeaking of hexes of course.I could pull out some rods and the mic and start doing somecalculating, but I wanted to see if anyone out there has a simpleformula. Funny the things the human wonders about when running onminimal sleep! Shawn Pineo from Canerods@aol.com Tue Jun 13 11:31:27 2000 e5DGUGG12754 Subject: Where to stay in Grayling? All, My 1st time to Grayrock - where does everyone else stay? Don Burns from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Tue Jun 13 12:02:53 2000 e5DH2qG14245 Subject: Re: Math quiz divide by the sine of 60* So if you have a flat to flat of .100 the apex to apex would be .1/.8660 =.1154 Paul ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Math quiz Here's a good one for all you math experts. What is the formula forconverting "flat to flat dimensions" to "apex to apex dimensions". I amspeaking of hexes of course.I could pull out some rods and the mic and start doing somecalculating, but I wanted to see if anyone out there has a simpleformula. Funny the things the human wonders about when running onminimal sleep! Shawn Pineo from tklein@amgen.com Tue Jun 13 12:26:23 2000 e5DHQMG14936 smtp.amgen.com via smap (V4.2) Subject: RE: Math quiz The sine of 60 degrees (on an equilateral triangle) will give you the heightof that triangle divided by length of an edge: sine 60 = height/edge length so... to solve for the edge length the formula would be: edge length = height/sine 60 since both edge length and height are doubled on a blank, we can simplycalculate as follows: apex to apex = flat to flat / sine 60 e.g. - .125 flat to flat: .125/.866 = .14434 apex to apex ---Timx11512 ----------From: nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca[SMTP:nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca] Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 11:23 AM Subject: Math quiz Here's a good one for all you math experts. What is the formula forconverting "flat to flat dimensions" to "apex to apex dimensions". I amspeaking of hexes of course.I could pull out some rods and the mic and start doing somecalculating, but I wanted to see if anyone out there has a simpleformula. Funny the things the human wonders about when running onminimal sleep! Shawn Pineo from jfoster@gte.net Tue Jun 13 13:06:47 2000 e5DI6kG16159 Subject: Re: Math quiz creator="4D4F5353" Hi Don the Aquarama is a good place but i think they are full for the weekend try http://www.grayling-mi.com/lodging.shtml good luck Jerry from mbiondo@wuacn.wustl.edu Tue Jun 13 14:24:51 2000 e5DJOnG18602 Subject: Re: Where to stay in Grayling? Don seez... My 1st time to Grayrock - where does everyone else stay? Jerry already mentioned Aquarama. You also might want to check with Chris Bogart. Last year, Chris had thecabins at Whispering Pines campgrounds set aside for the Rodmakers. Don'tknow if there is any cabins left though... Mike- from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Jun 13 14:24:56 2000 e5DJOtG18609 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:11:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Reeds - was RE: Attic There's an article in the BOTHPF, by a reed maker in France, who also makescane rods. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Reeds - was RE: Attic Isn't it Jack Howell who mentioned in his book that he came to rodbuildingthrough reed making?---Timx11512 ----------From: Joe Mulvey[SMTP:bassmeister_2000@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 7:36 AM Subject: re: Attic Hi all,I just came across this and figfured I'd pass it on. Drieriteis a product made by a co. in Ohio. It eliminates moisture to-100 degrees F. The card I got in the mail shows differentcontainers with varying thicknesses of grains. Send of fax for afree catalog.W.A. Hammond Drierite Co.PO Box 460Xenia, OH 45385Phone 937-376-2927Fax 937-376-1977Of course there's no affiliation between me and them. I'venever even been to Ohio! Also, in regard to the short thread about musical instruments.My son takes sax lessons every Sat. I usually hang out at theshop and read whatever is lying around. The reeds used in windinstruments are very big business with the best cane for thispurpose being grown in France. One catalog showed the entireprocess with excellent pix and descriptions. Very interesting!regards,Joe =====Joe MulveyStoneham, MAwww.mulvey.eboard.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!http://photos.yahoo.com from darrell@rockclimbing.org Tue Jun 13 15:44:37 2000 e5DKiaG20725 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: Where to stay in Grayling? rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Importance: Normal Don, Ya wanna borrow a tent??? Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Where to stay in Grayling? Don seez... My 1st time to Grayrock - where does everyone else stay? Jerry already mentioned Aquarama. You also might want to check with Chris Bogart. Last year, Chris had thecabins at Whispering Pines campgrounds set aside for the Rodmakers. Don'tknow if there is any cabins left though... Mike- from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Jun 13 15:52:04 2000 e5DKq3G21006 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:38:26 -0500 Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods My thought was that if enough would order at least one silk line, or even 2or 3 that would fit their needs, then combined with a commercial venture alarge enough order could be generated to make it feasible to make themagain! I'm thinking perhaps a firm that is respected, such as Golden Witch, were tobe interested, a constant supply of silk lines could be seen again, but at amuch more reasonable price. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George,Through an intermediary, some of us enquired about getting one of themachines. There was a lack of response.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk lines again ? GMA from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Jun 13 15:58:08 2000 e5DKw7G21241 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:44:32 -0500 "'Rodmakers \(E-mail\)'" Subject: Re: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart Of course I understand about the line drag in the air, and the largerdiameters having much more of it. What bothers me, is I have a number of plastic lines, in the same "rated"sizes, that do not load the same rod the same ! Both the timing, and turnover need adjustment to your rhythm when casting them ! They are not allthesame make, or brand ! Someday, when I have time, I will get out and measure each taper, for lengthand diameter. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart George,See below in italics, underlined.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: Reed, weren't all the early lines from silk, based or rated by a weightperso many feet of a certain diameter ? Alas, no. They were only rated by diameter. And the English used adifferentscale than the U.S., so an English Halford line (long one of the mostpopularover here) of size H was closer to an American G. Hardy used an evendifferentscale and their C would be our E. While the larger plastic lines arelighter per diameter, isn't it the weight that's past the tip that doestheloading for proper balance ? Correct, however, air resistance plays a significant role in casting. Thusathin, dense line will cast much more easily than a larger diameter line ofthesame weight. Are the plastic lines graded, lets say as a "C", for theirweight/diameter,(arbitrary, or "X" amount of feet) or by the diameter it takes to equaltheweight of a "C" line in silk ? I don't quite understand. The modern AFTMA system is based soley upontheweightof the first 30' of line, exclusive of any level line before the taper.Theyshould have, IMHO, adopted a method that gave the weight/volume of thefirst30'. But they may have sondiered that too restrictive. What I'm getting at, is that one brand of WF-5, may weigh more than thesameline in another brand ??? This can get expensive, unless you have alargeselection of similar lines. All WF5 should weigh the same amount +/- a small percentage. But,becauseonemay be more dense than another, they will not cast the same. GMA----- Original Message -----From: "reed curry" Cc: ; "'Rodmakers (E-mail)'" Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:14 PMSubject: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart Darrell,I find the chart is similar to many others, it tries to comparesomethingbased purely on weight to something based purely on diameter. This isakintoassuming that Michael Jordan should play for the Green Bay Packers,basedonweight. We should probably use Specific Gravity, ala, J.A.K.I use an HCF on a five weight, a GAF on a six wt., an HEH on afourweight,etc.How do you convert a Hedge taper which has a 24' front taper?Tremendous variation also in varnish weight, braid pattern, etc.Useofsuch a chart would only lead people to conclude that either their rodisatfault, or their line, when they get a mismatch. Just a thought.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ "Darrell A. Lee" wrote: Just finished adding the AFTMA conversion chart for silk fly linesoneofthe listers posted awhile back. I reformated it and added it to mywebsite.Here's the page, please check it out to see if I made any bungles... www.vfish.net/silklinechart.htm Darrellwww.vfish.net from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 13 17:06:36 2000 e5DM6ZG22897 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP ;Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:06:31 +0000 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George, I'd be up for at LEAST one line, maybe more. Especially at a"reasonable" price. But at $250.00 to $300.00 apiece?? Aye Carramba! At even half that it's still too rich for my heavily sweetened blood! Let's keep the thoughts flowing... Dennis nobler wrote: My thought was that if enough would order at least one silk line, or even 2or 3 that would fit their needs, then combined with a commercial venture alarge enough order could be generated to make it feasible to make themagain! I'm thinking perhaps a firm that is respected, such as Golden Witch, weretobe interested, a constant supply of silk lines could be seen again, but at amuch more reasonable price. GMA----- Original Message -----From: "reed curry" Cc: "bob maulucci" ; Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 9:12 AMSubject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George,Through an intermediary, some of us enquired about getting one ofthemachines. There was a lack of response.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk lines again ? GMA from Canerods@aol.com Tue Jun 13 17:56:56 2000 e5DMutG23883 Subject: Penta tip scarf repair! All, I took in a penta rod from a fellow FF club member, the rod had belonged to an old fishing buddy and was left to the club member in the friend's estate. The rod wasn't in fishable shape - one tip was broken at the ferrule and the other tip was delaminated above the ferrule. (about a 6" delamination) Plus the rod had light mildew or other dark spots on the varnish. The club member just wanted it fixed up and said that it wouldn't be fished. I've cleaned the mildew off and it doesn't seem to be coming back. I fixed the delamination too. Well, I couldn't find a penta tip piece to scarf to the broken tip and so I scarfed on an oversized piece of hex-rod tip. Then I filed and filed .... the result isn't too bad! Dave LeClair made up a nice replacement ferrule for the tip and it's mounted too. Of course, the wrap main color is Granger Green - try finding that! Darrell Lee to the rescue! Now I just need to find a size 3 or size 4 black English snake guide - one more pain-in-the-butt item! So much for a simple rod restoration! Don Burns from bob@downandacross.com Tue Jun 13 19:01:27 2000 e5E01QG24958 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George and list: Some of you guys (and gals) know I am awaiting 30+ lines from Phoenix from a buy I organized from this list. Almost all orders were for line sizes 3, 4, and 5 and all but 3 were double tapers. Hell, if Cortland or SA will make a bonefish or a musky taper, why not try rejuvenating the silk line? (How many Musky lines can they sell?) I bet there are enough serious trout fishermen who would at least try it. If a market was not out there, I am sure Winston and T&T would have closed their cane shops up a long time ago. It is up to the best of the independent builders like Jeff Wagner and others to bring the pleasure of silk lines back. Phoenix is a wonderful company, who will deal with anyone willing to make the investment. I would not organize another big buy because in the future, it will take money out of the serious rod builder's pockets. This is a hobby for me, I want Mike and Jeff and the others to succeed. I would encourage other national and regional makers to get a dealership and see who wants these lines. I am just going to keep enough on hand to help sell rods. I know that someone who fires up one of my rods with a silk line will be stunned. If I can get a customer a line at a good price, he will buy it. The other thing I am doing now is getting some old lines together to refinish and sell with rods. If I can spend $10 bucks and an hour or two to refinish a line that will best suite the classic tapers I have been making, I would be a fool not to. Why shouldn't Cortland or someone else want to get a piece of that market? If Mike Brooks at Phoenix can only make 600 lines a year, why is Cortland not trying to pick up the slack or trying to get those 600 line sales? I am surprised that big business has stayed out this long. Surely they know what's up. Hell, I talked to a guy at the local Orvis shop the other day, and he knew all about Phoenix lines. He never even touched a cane rod until this spring. I had thought that only this list knew about this kind of stuff. The cane rod and silk line people are out there. There is a market if you really look for it. I just hope that the independent, small guys can hold on for as long as they can before someone with serious capital catcheson. Sorry for ranting, but I am working on a master's class paper on equitable funding in education. I am reading too much Jonathan Kozol. "Down with anything big! Even if it is the government." Best regards,Bob However, the negative in all this, is of course is the over $100/ ea. price.Volume is the name of this game, and the question here, is how many onthislist and their contacts, could we raise orders from ? How many sizes wouldbe ordered ? Could, or would all be satisfied with one or two level linesizes ? Would all take a basic size of a DT ? And the biggest one of all, is what volume would it take for Cortland toproduce them at under $100 ? from all I gather here, most have leaned more toward rods under 7'- 6",andsome to under 5' ! Would the dominant size(s) be mostly for E, or F levels,or would it be a DT ? Most of you live in cold water, i.e. trout or salmonwaters, I would imagine. I'm just throwing out questions, that seem pertinent, to see if thepossibility is even remote. Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 13 19:03:56 2000 e5E03tG25123 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP ;Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:03:51 +0000 "'Rodmakers (E-mail)'" Subject: Re: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart Weighed lots and lots of plastic lines several years ago, before themanufacturers had as many "models" as they do now. Issue gets a littlecomplicated cause if you review the AFTMA ratings you will note that there isafair tolerance range for a given line weight. In weighing the lines, it wasapparent that each manufacturer had a different philosophy on how to dealwiththe tolerance for a given line weight....perhaps the accuracy of qualitycontrolfunction entered into the picture in some cases as well. We found thatMaker"A" was consistently at the high end of the tolerance for a given line weightand Maker "B" would consistently be at the low end. Due to the consistancyofthe results we concluded that a conscious decision was made by each Maker. Inother cases, where lines of a given weight would be all over the allowabletolerance range we concluded that the Makers objective was either to rejectasfew lines as possible in the QC process and/or their manufacturing processwasn't capable of maintaining the consistancy achieved by the "A" and "B"Makers. nobler wrote: Of course I understand about the line drag in the air, and the largerdiameters having much more of it. What bothers me, is I have a number of plastic lines, in the same "rated"sizes, that do not load the same rod the same ! Both the timing, and turnover need adjustment to your rhythm when casting them ! They are not allthesame make, or brand ! Someday, when I have time, I will get out and measure each taper, forlengthand diameter. GMA --Mike LeitheiserLake Oswego, Oregon "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Jun 13 19:11:15 2000 e5E0BEG25310 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:57:35 -0500 Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods It's been all the talk about silk, that made me think the same thing Bob ! GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George and list: Some of you guys (and gals) know I am awaiting 30+ lines from Phoenixfroma buy I organized from this list. Almost all orders were for line sizes 3,4, and 5 and all but 3 were double tapers. Hell, if Cortland or SA willmake a bonefish or a musky taper, why not try rejuvenating the silk line?(How many Musky lines can they sell?) I bet there are enough serious troutfishermen who would at least try it. If a market was not out there, I amsure Winston and T&T would have closed their cane shops up a long timeago.It is up to the best of the independent builders like Jeff Wagner andothers to bring the pleasure of silk lines back. Phoenix is a wonderful company, who will deal with anyone willing to makethe investment. I would not organize another big buy because in thefuture,it will take money out of the serious rod builder's pockets. This is ahobby for me, I want Mike and Jeff and the others to succeed. I wouldencourage other national and regional makers to get a dealership and seewho wants these lines. I am just going to keep enough on hand to help sellrods. I know that someone who fires up one of my rods with a silk linewillbe stunned. If I can get a customer a line at a good price, he will buyit.The other thing I am doing now is getting some old lines together torefinish and sell with rods. If I can spend $10 bucks and an hour or twotorefinish a line that will best suite the classic tapers I have beenmaking,I would be a fool not to. Why shouldn't Cortland or someone else want to get a piece of thatmarket?If Mike Brooks at Phoenix can only make 600 lines a year, why is Cortlandnot trying to pick up the slack or trying to get those 600 line sales? Iamsurprised that big business has stayed out this long. Surely they knowwhat's up. Hell, I talked to a guy at the local Orvis shop the other day,and he knew all about Phoenix lines. He never even touched a cane roduntilthis spring. I had thought that only this list knew about this kind ofstuff. The cane rod and silk line people are out there. There is a marketif you really look for it. I just hope that the independent, small guyscanhold on for as long as they can before someone with serious capitalcatches on. Sorry for ranting, but I am working on a master's class paper on equitablefunding in education. I am reading too much Jonathan Kozol. "Down withanything big! Even if it is the government." Best regards,Bob However, the negative in all this, is of course is the over $100/ ea.price.Volume is the name of this game, and the question here, is how many onthislist and their contacts, could we raise orders from ? How many sizeswouldbe ordered ? Could, or would all be satisfied with one or two level linesizes ? Would all take a basic size of a DT ? And the biggest one of all, is what volume would it take for Cortland toproduce them at under $100 ? from all I gather here, most have leaned more toward rods under 7'- 6",andsome to under 5' ! Would the dominant size(s) be mostly for E, or Flevels,or would it be a DT ? Most of you live in cold water, i.e. trout orsalmonwaters, I would imagine. I'm just throwing out questions, that seem pertinent, to see if thepossibility is even remote. Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from wlwalter@bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 13 19:16:55 2000 e5E0GsG25524 Subject: Scarfing I have a tip that is about 40-50% delaminated and 6 inches short. Wouldit be better to take the tip completely apart and scarf new cane ontoeach strip or do a massive scarf on the tip and and inject glue into theseperations? If I take the tip apart the rest of the way and do thescarfing on each piece, how would I scarf an already triangulated strip?I know about the theory behind scarfing each strip for a nodeless rodbut my understanding is that is done when the strips are stillrelatively square. In glueing the scarf/scarfs has anyone ever triedusing an epoxy, like flexcoat? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Bill Walters from bh887@lafn.org Tue Jun 13 19:36:06 2000 e5E0a6G25984 (envelope- from bh887@lafn.org) Subject: Re: Math quiz Maybe I'm nuts but.... We are talking about an equilateral..all sides EQUAL..triangle. If you wantthe distance from one apex to the opposite apex, double the width of theflat, since the width of the flat is equal to the length of the side fromthe flat to to center of the rod and doubling that gives you the other half.Assuming you have a perfect hex, that is. Lee ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Math quiz Here's a good one for all you math experts. What is the formula forconverting "flat to flat dimensions" to "apex to apex dimensions". I amspeaking of hexes of course.I could pull out some rods and the mic and start doing somecalculating, but I wanted to see if anyone out there has a simpleformula. Funny the things the human wonders about when running onminimal sleep! Shawn Pineo from ajthramer@hotmail.com Tue Jun 13 19:41:23 2000 e5E0fMG26314 Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:41:18 PDT Subject: silk line In one of my recent talks with Russ at Goldenwitch he said he was pursuing a source for silk lines at the current moment. I don't know how much help a corporate approach(as it relates to fly fishing equipment) would be to decrease the cost of silk lines. There is about a tenfold increase in price from cost of manufacture(including labor costs) to retail. Since this ratio seems to hold for both rods and lines I would question how much we would be helped. Then things that occur to corporate manufacturers might creep in, shorter staple silk or inferior varnishes for instance. In the craft type of FF industry that we engage in we tolerate much narrower margins, indeed near starvation at times to work at the craft that we think is important. I think that Noel is likely doing the same thing. We must also face the reality that as a 'force' in the FF industry we are a flyspeck on the wall. Sure we get pandered to with the occasional print article about the 'lost art' of cane when in reality the current cane makers as a whole present the largest and most varied talent pool ever. The average quality of a modern cane rod has never been surpassed. Even rods fromsome of the old masters would be looked upon as an amateur effort in the current marketplace. I hpoe this does come across as a rant because it is not, just some observations and conclusions that I have come to in the last 16 years building these darn wood fish poles:) A.J.Thramer________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Jun 13 19:48:06 2000 e5E0m5G26594 17:52:00 PDT Subject: Re: Math quiz "since the width of the flat is equal to the length of the side fromthe flat to to center " That's not actually a correct statement. Some others provided a formula of flat to flat measurement divided by sine of 60 degrees, and that seems towork. Chris---------- Original Text ---------- Maybe I'm nuts but.... We are talking about an equilateral..all sides EQUAL..triangle. If you wantthe distance from one apex to the opposite apex, double the width of theflat, since the width of the flat is equal to the length of the side fromthe flat to to center of the rod and doubling that gives you the other half.Assuming you have a perfect hex, that is. Lee ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Math quiz Here's a good one for all you math experts. What is the formula forconverting "flat to flat dimensions" to "apex to apex dimensions". I amspeaking of hexes of course.I could pull out some rods and the mic and start doing somecalculating, but I wanted to see if anyone out there has a simpleformula. Funny the things the human wonders about when running onminimal sleep! Shawn Pineo from timklein@uswest.net Tue Jun 13 19:56:54 2000 e5E0urG26794 (63.225.240.173) Subject: Re: Math quiz Actually, it doesn't. Try drawing an equilateral triangle. Now draw a line from the top point tothe base (the triangles' "Height"). If you measure the height, then measure the length of a side, you'll see aslight difference. This relationship between angles and side lengths is solved using thetrigonometric functions. ---Tim "I'm proud to pay taxes in the United States; the only thing is, I could bejust as proud for half the money"- Arthur Godfrey----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Math quiz Maybe I'm nuts but.... We are talking about an equilateral..all sides EQUAL..triangle. If youwantthe distance from one apex to the opposite apex, double the width of theflat, since the width of the flat is equal to the length of the side fromthe flat to to center of the rod and doubling that gives you the otherhalf.Assuming you have a perfect hex, that is. Lee ----- Original Message -----From: Shawn Pineo Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 10:23 AMSubject: Math quiz Here's a good one for all you math experts. What is the formula forconverting "flat to flat dimensions" to "apex to apex dimensions". I amspeaking of hexes of course.I could pull out some rods and the mic and start doing somecalculating, but I wanted to see if anyone out there has a simpleformula. Funny the things the human wonders about when running onminimal sleep! Shawn Pineo from oakmere@carol.net Tue Jun 13 19:59:35 2000 e5E0xYG26930 Subject: RE: Math Relation Hi Shawn: Here is the relationship for a hex rod. D = diameter of circumscribed circlef = distance across flats D = f / .866 for a Hex Rod The general relationship for any polygon is R = r / cosine (360 deg / 2 n ) where n is the number of polygon sides; r is the line from the center ofthe polygon normal to a side; and R is the radius of the circumscribed circle. Reference: Survey of Applicable Mathematics, MIT Press Hope this helps. Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFox2932 North Bayshore DriveSeneca, SC 29672Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Rt 44, Waterville, PAfwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work)oakmere@carol.net (home) from yves@hwy97.net Tue Jun 13 20:02:51 2000 e5E12oG27108 (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.2.0) with SMTP id ;Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:02:51 -0700 Subject: Re: Penta tip scarf repair! I recently purchased some Granger Green thread from Angler's Workshop -their color 161. They have both A and 3/0. Their web site iswww.anglersworkshop.com. This silk thread is from Japan. At 06:56 PM 6/13/00 EDT, Canerods@aol.com wrote:All, I took in a penta rod from a fellow FF club member, the rod had belonged to an old fishing buddy and was left to the club member in the friend's estate. The rod wasn't in fishable shape - one tip was broken at the ferrule and the other tip was delaminated above the ferrule. (about a 6" delamination) Plus the rod had light mildew or other dark spots on the varnish. The clubmember just wanted it fixed up and said that it wouldn't be fished. I've cleaned the mildew off and it doesn't seem to be coming back. I fixed the delamination too. Well, I couldn't find a penta tip piece to scarf to the broken tip and so I scarfed on an oversized piece of hex-rod tip. Then I filed and filed ....the result isn't too bad! Dave LeClair made up a nice replacement ferrule for the tip and it'smounted too. Of course, the wrap main color is Granger Green - try finding that! Darrell Lee to the rescue! Now I just need to find a size 3 or size 4 black English snake guide - one more pain-in-the-butt item! So much for a simple rod restoration! Don Burns from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Jun 13 20:13:10 2000 e5E1D9G27441 (SMTPD32-6.00) id AD3474C900E4; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:17:40 -0400 "'Rodmakers (E-mail)'" Subject: Re: Silk Fly Line AFTMA Chart George,If only it were so simple. Besides the taper and diameter, you also havethecore size and the formulation of the plastic. Some lines are constructed tobestiffer than average for specific applications; on the other hand, I onceboughtan Intermediate line (the only way to get a really thin line) which was sorubbery it clung to the guides like flypaper to a fly.The line industry has made every attempt to provide a line for everypossible application... within the scope of their material. But matching a lineto a rod is still trial and error. One of the things Bogart and I enjoy atGrayling is "tuning" rods with different lines. Its amazing to have a sleepy rodsuddenly come alive.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: Of course I understand about the line drag in the air, and the largerdiameters having much more of it. What bothers me, is I have a number of plastic lines, in the same "rated"sizes, that do not load the same rod the same ! Both the timing, and turnover need adjustment to your rhythm when casting them ! They are not allthesame make, or brand ! Someday, when I have time, I will get out and measure each taper, forlengthand diameter. GMA from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Jun 13 20:18:39 2000 e5E1IcG27626 Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:18:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Scarfing Bill,Although I'm a long way from an expert on repairs, I would suggest thatyou do this in two steps: First, repair the delaminated section byre-gluing and binding. Use a good glue like URAC, or a proven epoxy likeNyatex or Shell Epon. Flex-coat probably won't work well at all. After theglue has dried completely, remove the string and carefully sand away anyexcess glue, being careful not to sand into the bamboo itself. The secondstep is scarfing a replacement section on to the newly repaired section. Ithink several of the current books have sections on making scarf repairs.You can either make a new section to scarf, or try to match dimensions andcoloration with a piece from a spare tip section. I've got a few old tipslying around, so if you need some possible scarfing material, let me know. Harry BoydBill Walters wrote: I have a tip that is about 40-50% delaminated and 6 inches short. Wouldit be better to take the tip completely apart and scarf new cane ontoeach strip or do a massive scarf on the tip and and inject glue into theseperations? If I take the tip apart the rest of the way and do thescarfing on each piece, how would I scarf an already triangulated strip?I know about the theory behind scarfing each strip for a nodeless rodbut my understanding is that is done when the strips are stillrelatively square. In glueing the scarf/scarfs has anyone ever triedusing an epoxy, like flexcoat? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Bill Walters --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Jun 13 20:26:02 2000 e5E1Q2G27891 Subject: Re: silk line Well said, A.J. (or is it Allen?)I hope Russ is able to get something going on silk lines. I like doingbusiness with him. In fact, I placed a small order with him today for just over$100 worth of stuff. I know that there are times when I could save a buckortwo by shopping around, but I feel that those of us in this craft need tosupport one another any time we can.I live in a small town in North Louisiana, in the Mississippi RiverDelta. Small businesses are dropping like flies around here. Real populationdecreases about 5% per year. The rural/agricultural way of life is quicklydisappearing. The only way to slow it down is buy locally, to keep the Wallyworld's from pressuring out the Mom and Pop places. (Oops, my turn torant...)Supporting those who cater to our obsession is a good idea, IMHO. Harry Boyd Allen Thramer wrote: In one of my recent talks with Russ at Goldenwitch he said he was pursuingasource for silk lines at the current moment. --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Jun 13 20:27:15 2000 e5E1REG28001 18:31:11 PDT Subject: Re: Math quiz Sorry Lee, Your statement "is" correct after I look at it again. The problem is that the length of a side is typically not known as readily as the flat to flat dimension when measureing a glued up rod with dial calipers which is probably what he's doing in order to fit a winding check or reelseat. Chris---------- Original Text ---------- 5:51 PM: "since the width of the flat is equal to the length of the side fromthe flat to to center " That's not actually a correct statement. Some others provided a formula of flat to flat measurement divided by sine of 60 degrees, and that seems towork. Chris---------- Original Text ---------- Maybe I'm nuts but.... We are talking about an equilateral..all sides EQUAL..triangle. If you wantthe distance from one apex to the opposite apex, double the width of theflat, since the width of the flat is equal to the length of the side fromthe flat to to center of the rod and doubling that gives you the other half.Assuming you have a perfect hex, that is. Lee ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Math quiz Here's a good one for all you math experts. What is the formula forconverting "flat to flat dimensions" to "apex to apex dimensions". I amspeaking of hexes of course.I could pull out some rods and the mic and start doing somecalculating, but I wanted to see if anyone out there has a simpleformula. Funny the things the human wonders about when running onminimal sleep! Shawn Pineo from channer1@rmi.net Tue Jun 13 21:07:40 2000 e5E27dG28589 Subject: Re: Math quiz Tim Klein wrote: Actually, it doesn't. Try drawing an equilateral triangle. Now draw a line from the top point tothe base (the triangles' "Height"). If you measure the height, then measure the length of a side, you'll see aslight difference. This relationship between angles and side lengths is solved using thetrigonometric functions. ---Tim Tim;O.K. for you guys that understand trig or have a scientifc calculator,what about those of us who don't? I have a feet/inch calculator for theconstruction trades and I can use it to find out the same thing. I enterthe height of the strip as the rise and the pitch as 60d, then use thediagonal key to tell me the width of the flat, x2 gives you the width ofthe rod at that point from point to point. All of which is prettyuseless, I have never found any good reason to know this dimension, ifyou are fitting ferrules or tip tops, use the flat to flat measurement,use the next whole size, or half size in the case of tip tops, and roundoff the corners until it fits. If you need to buy a winding check anduse a hex tool to make it fit, use the flat to flat measurement in frontof the grip and multiply by 66.667, that will give you a number X,x/64ths is the size check to buy. I think I recall reading in some bookor another that the formula for outside diameter of a hexagon is theacross flats number (inside diameter)times 1.16John from channer1@rmi.net Tue Jun 13 21:12:56 2000 e5E2CtG28807 Subject: Re: Penta tip scarf repair! David La Touche wrote: I recently purchased some Granger Green thread from Angler's Workshop -their color 161. They have both A and 3/0. Their web site iswww.anglersworkshop.com. This silk thread is from Japan. One minor problem Dave, it is not quite the same color, the original is noticably more gold than the new stuff. Darrell Lee sent me some of theoriginal stock he has and it is different.John from richjez@enteract.com Tue Jun 13 22:27:59 2000 e5E3RwG29769 (envelope- from richjez@enteract.com) Subject: Re: Where to stay in Grayling? boundary="=====================_7570586==_.ALT" --=====================_7570586==_.ALT Many stay at Aqurama, I understand that there is going to be a group staying at the campgrounds. Penrods has nice cabins with kitchenettes. I am staying at Woodland. They take pets. Unfortunately I had to put down my dog last Friday. The Grayling chamber of commerce has a web site listing all of the hotels. The Cedar is poor. I have a partial listing below,Rich Jezioro Aquarama Motor Lodge, I-75 Business Loop South, adjacent to Exit 254;(517) 348-5405 or 1-800-818-2511. 43 rooms; push-button phones; continental breakfast; 12-15 person conference room; air conditioning; cable TV; easy access to restaurants, golf, skiing, snowmobiling, fishing; quality accommodations at budget rates; all major credit cardsaccepted; AAA approved; 24 non-smoking rooms. AuSable Motel offers comfortable, clean, affordable rooms with some efficiencies. Air conditioned, direct dial phones, some rooms with refrigerators; all major credit cards accepted. Located on I-75 Business Loop North, Northbound exit #254, Southbound exit #256, (517)348-2825 Cedar Motel, 606 N. James Street, Grayling; (517) 348-5884. Located on I- 75 Business Loop, so we're conveniently located for all there is to see and do in Grayling. Small ten unit motel with color cable TV with HBO, air conditioning, direct dial heat, and tub andshower combinations in every room. Friendly, clean and affordable. Open year 'round with VISA, MasterCard, American Express and Discover cards accepted. Pets are allowed in some rooms. Days Inn of Grayling; (517) 344-0204; Toll-Free 1-800-DAYS-INN. Offers 65 rooms, 3 suites. Some jacuzzis, group rates, under 18 stay free. HBO, Cinemax, free continental breakfast and coffee available anytime. Conference room, salesperson rooms with lazy boys, desks, modems. Restaurant-lounge-entertainment nearby. Welcome to SPRING! Blossoms are out. Why don't you get out & smell Springs aroma in Northern MichiganWe have vacancies!! Gates AuSable Lodge, on the banks of the AuSable River, 7 miles east of Grayling, has 16 attractively appointed motel rooms each with a river view. Private dining room featuring homemade soups, breads, pies and dinner specials. Flyfishing pro shop specializing in custom fly patterns, quality equipment, and a full time guide service. Open April through October. 471 Stephan Bridge Road; Grayling, MI 49738. (517) 348-8462.Ask about golf, canoe, and casino packages. Brunch every Sunday, only$8.95. Grayling Holiday Inn is a friendly, family oriented motel/convention center. 151 guest rooms; bridal executive suite; pets allowed in some rooms; holidome features pool, sauna, whirlpool, children's pool, play area, etc.; meeting, banquet rooms; Crawford Station Restaurant, children's menu; Speakeasy Saloon, live entertainment; ski shop, ski/snowmobile trails from the door; packages (September - June), group rates. 2650 S.Business Loop, P.O. Box 473, Grayling, MI 49738; 1-800-292-9055 or (517) 348- 7611. Hospitality House Motel offers 63 rooms in a country setting, and features The Irongate Restaurant, indoor heated pool and whirlpool; HBO and Jacuzzis; room service, gameroom; all major credit cards accepted, group rates; all rooms air conditioned, direct dial phones, mircrowaves & refrigerators; VCR some rooms, 3 room honeymoon suite with fireplace, family Jacuzzi suite, non- smoking rooms available. Located on I-75 Business Loop North, Exit #254 Northbound, Exit #256 Southbgound. (517) 348-8900 1-800-722- 4151. North Country Lodge, Carl and Judy Craft, your hosts, invite you to Grayling and the North country. We have 24 units to offer you, ranging from economy to deluxe get-away suites. Jacuzzi's in some rooms. Accepts petsin some rooms. I-75 Business Loop, Grayling, MI 49735; (517) 348-8471; Toll Free 1-800-475-6300. Pointe North of Grayling is a unique "country inn" style motel. Each room is individually decorated, and we have non-smoking rooms. Pets are allowed in some rooms. An enclosed hallway with collectables and memorabilia from many guests leads to the office where morning coffee and donuts await. Along with double beds, one may choose queen or king, or sleep in the comfort of a water bed. AT&T phones, cable TV with HBO, air conditioning, refrigerators & kitchenettes available. Call Adrian Andrews. (517) 348- 5950. River Country Motor Lodge, Cozy rooms and cabin in country setting. Microwaves & refrigerators in all doubles. Kitchenettes available. Play area for little ones with picnic area. Coffee, cable, HBO, direct-dial phones, air conditioning. Next to snowmobile trails.Heated garage for snowmobiler's use. Reasonable rates, open year 'round. 275 North I-75 Business Loop; Grayling, MI 49738; (517) 348-8619; Toll Free 1-800-733-7396. Shoppenagons Inn, 103 Michigan Avenue, under the wind generator; (517) 348-6071. Walking distance to downtown shopping; victorian suites; dining room, lounge, banquet and meeting rooms; cable TV, direct dial phones; open year 'round; reasonable rates; close to skiing, snowmobiling; Fine dining/casual attire, dinner specials seven days per week; all sports enthusiasts welcome. VISA, MasterCard and Discover cards accepted. Super 8 Motel of Grayling offering quality economy lodging in a unique country setting, with direct access to many types of major state trails. Conveniently located to Camp Grayling, golfing, canoeing, and 4 seasons of outdoor fun. Easy on/off ramp, exit 251 off I-75. Motel has truck stop across street for truck & trailer parking, 24 hour desk, meeting areas, guest laundry and serves continental breakfast, groups welcome. All roomshavequeen or king size beds, remote control TV, HBO and n/c local phone. Jacuzzi suites available. Pets are allowed in some rooms. For toll free reservations phone Superline at 1-800-800-8000 or our front desk at (517) 348-8888. Walk-ins always welcome. Warbler's Way Inn, I-75 Business Loop 4 blocks from downtown. Attractive, clean rooms with Regular, Queen, King, smoking and non-smoking rooms. Pets are allowed in some rooms. Within walking distance to shopping, adjacent to restaurants and snowmobile trail. We also offer Air conditioning, Direct Dial Phones, Color Cable TV, with Remotes and Morning Coffee. Please call us at (517) 348-4541, Fax (517) 348- 4641 Western Trails Motel, 1 1/2 miles west of Grayling in a country setting. 33 newly decorated, air conditioned and individually heated rooms. Have a family cookout in our large yard and bring your ORV's and snowmobilesand try one of the trails leaving directly from our motel. Pets are allowed in some rooms. Outdoor enthusiasts and military welcome. (517) 348-7681. Woodland Motel, North I-75 Business Loop, Grayling, MI. (517) 348-9094. Enjoy privacy in wooded, scenic surroundings. Out-door cooking area. All types of rooms, kitchenettes, cabin that sleeps six. Honeymoon suites with large whirlpool tubs, rooms with queen size beds and remote control TVs. Cable & HBO. Direct dial phones. Extra clean quality rooms at reasonable rates. Open year 'round. Pets are allowed in some rooms. 1-800- WOOD818 for reservations. Wyandotte Lodge Inc., on the scenic AuSable River. Located at McMastersville, MI, 16 miles east of Grayling on M-72, then 4 1/2 miles north on F-97. We offer rooms in the Lodge, 5 housekeeping cabins overlooking the river, canoe service, and food service in the Lodge all at reasonable rates. Call (517) 348-8354. Mailing address: 1320 McMasters Bridge Rd., McMastersville (Grayling), MI 49738. At 11:30 AM 6/13/00, Canerods@aol.com wrote:All, My 1st time to Grayrock - where does everyone else stay? Don Burns *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro@/||/____/||_________________________________________||/\))):> > ))):>-- =====================_7570586==_.ALT Many stay at Aqurama, I understand that there is going tobea group staying at the campgrounds. Penrods has nice cabins withkitchenettes. I am staying at Woodland. They take pets. Unfortunately Ihad to put down my dog last Friday. The Grayling chamber of commerce has a web site listing all of thehotels. The Cedar is poor. I have a partial listing below,Rich Jezioro Aquarama Motor Lodge, I-75 Business Loop South, adjacent to Exit 254;(517) 348-5405 or 1-800-818-2511. 43 rooms; push-button phones;continental breakfast; 12-15 person conference room; air conditioning;cable TV; easy access to restaurants, golf, skiing, snowmobiling,fishing; quality accommodations at budget rates; all major creditcardsaccepted; AAA approved; 24 non-smoking rooms. AuSable Motel offers comfortable, clean, affordable rooms with someefficiencies. Air conditioned, direct dial phones, some rooms withrefrigerators; all major credit cards accepted. Located on I-75 BusinessLoop North, Northbound exit #254, Southbound exit #256, (517)348-2825 Cedar Motel, 606 N. James Street, Grayling; (517) 348-5884. Located onI-75 Business Loop, so we're conveniently located for all there is to seeand do in Grayling. Small ten unit motel with color cable TV with HBO,air conditioning, direct dial heat, and tub andshower combinations in every room. Friendly, clean and affordable. Openyear 'round with VISA, MasterCard, American Express and Discover cardsaccepted. Pets are allowed in some rooms. Days Inn of Grayling; (517) 344-0204; Toll-Free 1-800-DAYS-INN. Offers 65rooms, 3 suites. Some jacuzzis, group rates, under 18 stay free. HBO,Cinemax, free continental breakfast and coffee available anytime.Conference room, salesperson rooms with lazy boys, desks, modems. Blossomsare out. Why don't you get out & smell Springs aroma in NorthernMichiganWe have vacancies!! Gates AuSable Lodge, on the banks of the AuSable River, 7 miles east ofGrayling, has 16 attractively appointed motel rooms each with a riverview. Private dining room featuring homemade soups, breads, pies anddinner specials. Flyfishing pro shop specializing in custom fly patterns,quality equipment, and a full time guide service. Open April throughOctober. 471 Stephan Bridge Road; Grayling, MI 49738. (517) 348-8462. Ask about golf, canoe, and casino packages. Brunch every Sunday, only$8.95. Grayling Holiday Inn is a friendly, family oriented motel/conventioncenter. 151 guest rooms; bridal executive suite; pets allowed in somerooms; holidome features pool, sauna, whirlpool, children's pool, playarea, etc.; meeting, banquet rooms; Crawford Station Restaurant,children's menu; Speakeasy Saloon, live entertainment; ski shop,ski/snowmobile trails from the door; packages (September - June), grouprates. 2650 S.Business Loop, P.O. Box 473, Grayling, MI 49738; 1-800-292-9055 or (517)348-7611. Hospitality House Motel offers 63 rooms in a country setting, andfeatures The Irongate Restaurant, indoor heated pool and whirlpool; HBOand Jacuzzis; room service, gameroom; all major credit cards accepted, mircrowaves & refrigerators; VCR some rooms, 3 room honeymoonsuitewith fireplace, family Jacuzzi suite, non- smoking rooms available.Located on I-75 Business Loop North, Exit #254 Northbound, Exit #256 Grayling and the North country. We have 24 units to offer you, ranging from economy to deluxe get-away suites. Jacuzzi's in some rooms. Acceptspets in some rooms. I-75 Business Loop, Grayling, MI 49735; (517)348-8471; Toll Free 1-800-475-6300. Pointe North of Grayling is a unique "country inn" style motel.Each room is individually decorated, and we have non-smoking rooms. Petsare allowed in some rooms. An enclosed hallway with collectables andmemorabilia from many guests leads to the office where morning coffee anddonuts await. Along with double beds, one may choose queen or king, orsleep in the comfort of a water bed. AT&T phones, cable TV with HBO,air conditioning, refrigerators & kitchenettes available. Call AdrianAndrews. (517) 348-5950. River Country Motor Lodge, Cozy rooms and cabin in country setting.Microwaves & refrigerators in all doubles. Kitchenettes available.Play area for little ones with picnic area. Coffee, cable, HBO,direct- dial phones, air conditioning. Next to snowmobile trails.Heated garage for snowmobiler's use. Reasonable rates, open year 'round.275 North I-75 Business Loop; Grayling, MI 49738; (517) 348-8619; TollFree 1-800-733- 7396. Shoppenagons Inn, 103 Michigan Avenue, under the wind generator; (517)348-6071. Walking distance to downtown shopping; victorian suites; diningroom, lounge, banquet and meeting rooms; cable TV, direct dial phones;open year 'round; reasonable rates; close to skiing, snowmobiling; Finedining/casual attire, dinner specials seven days per week; all sportsenthusiasts welcome. VISA, MasterCard and Discover cards accepted. Super 8 Motel of Grayling offering quality economy lodging in a uniquecountry setting, with direct access to many types of major state trails.Conveniently located to Camp Grayling, golfing, canoeing, and 4 seasonsof outdoor fun. Easy on/off ramp, exit 251 off I-75. Motel has truck stopacross street for truck & trailer parking, 24 hour desk, meetingareas, guest laundry and serves continental breakfast, groups welcome.All rooms havequeen or king size beds, remote control TV, HBO and n/c local phone.Jacuzzi suites available. Pets are allowed in some rooms. For toll freereservations phone Superline at 1-800-800-8000 or our front desk at (517)348-8888. Walk-ins always welcome. Warbler's Way Inn, I-75 Business Loop 4 blocks from downtown. Attractive,clean rooms with Regular, Queen, King, smoking and non-smoking rooms.Pets are allowed in some rooms. Within walking distance to shopping,adjacent to restaurants and snowmobile trail. We also offer Airconditioning, Direct Dial Phones, Color Cable TV, with Remotes andMorning Coffee. Please call us at (517) 348-4541, Fax (517) 348- 4641 Western Trails Motel, 1 1/2 miles west of Grayling in a country setting.33 newly decorated, air conditioned and individually heated rooms. Have afamily cookout in our large yard and bring your ORV's andsnowmobilesand try one of the trails leaving directly from our motel. Pets areallowed in some rooms. Outdoor enthusiasts and military welcome. (517)348-7681. Woodland Motel, North I-75 Business Loop, Grayling, MI. (517) 348- 9094.Enjoy privacy in wooded, scenic surroundings. Out-door cooking area. Alltypes of rooms, kitchenettes, cabin that sleeps six. suites with large whirlpool tubs, rooms with queen size beds and remotecontrol TVs. Cable & HBO. Direct dial phones. Extra clean qualityrooms at reasonable rates. Open year 'round. Pets are allowed in somerooms. 1-800-WOOD818 for reservations. Wyandotte Lodge Inc., on the scenic AuSable River. Located atMcMastersville, MI, 16 miles east of Grayling on M-72, then 4 1/2 milesnorth on F-97. We offer rooms in the Lodge, 5 housekeeping overlooking the river, canoe service, and food service in the Lodge allat reasonable rates. Call (517) 348-8354. Mailing address: 1320 McMastersBridge Rd., McMastersville (Grayling), MI 49738. At 11:30 AM 6/13/00, Canerods@aol.com wrote:All, My 1st time to Grayrock - where does everyone else stay? Don Burns *_____________ ___________________) @/ ||/ ____/||_________________________________________ p;/\ ; / bsp; --=====================_7570586==_.ALT-- from timklein@uswest.net Tue Jun 13 22:39:54 2000 e5E3drG00047 (63.225.241.151) Subject: Re: Math quiz The 1.16 number works fine for the following reason: Since we're working with an equilateral triangle, the formula always usesthe sine of 60 degrees. The sine of 60 degrees is .866 plus change. Thats where the divide the flat to flat measurement by .866 comes from. Dividing by .866 is the approximately the same as multiplying a number by1.16 because1 divided by .866 = ~1.16 ---Tim "I'm proud to pay taxes in the United States; the only thing is, I could bejust as proud for half the money"- Arthur Godfrey----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Math quiz Tim Klein wrote: Actually, it doesn't. Try drawing an equilateral triangle. Now draw a line from the top pointtothe base (the triangles' "Height"). If you measure the height, then measure the length of a side, you'll seeaslight difference. This relationship between angles and side lengths is solved using thetrigonometric functions. ---Tim Tim;O.K. for you guys that understand trig or have a scientifc calculator,what about those of us who don't? I have a feet/inch calculator for theconstruction trades and I can use it to find out the same thing. I enterthe height of the strip as the rise and the pitch as 60d, then use thediagonal key to tell me the width of the flat, x2 gives you the width ofthe rod at that point from point to point. All of which is prettyuseless, I have never found any good reason to know this dimension, ifyou are fitting ferrules or tip tops, use the flat to flat measurement,use the next whole size, or half size in the case of tip tops, and roundoff the corners until it fits. If you need to buy a winding check anduse a hex tool to make it fit, use the flat to flat measurement in frontof the grip and multiply by 66.667, that will give you a number X,x/64ths is the size check to buy. I think I recall reading in some bookor another that the formula for outside diameter of a hexagon is theacross flats number (inside diameter)times 1.16John from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Tue Jun 13 23:03:19 2000 e5E43HG00481 Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:01:32 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) "Roberts, Michael","'RODMAKERS'" Subject: RE: Cortland silk line braiding machines I've been researching silk line manufacture for nearly a year now and cantell you with some authority that there is precious little informationavailableon the "how to" aspect of braiding a silk line. On the up sidethough, I am in contact with a certain gentleman who has plans for abraiding machine (lost in the filing at present) which he reckons could beput together by any reasonably competent handyman type. Surely, asrodmakers, we should qualify don't you think? With all the silk line talklately I just couldn't stop myself from pestering him with another email If I was in your shoes Bob (only 2-3 hours from Cortland) I'd be down theretomorrow to annoy the hell out of them until they either sold or gave me abraiding machine just to get rid of me. It's not generally in my nature butI could learn to be a real pain in the arse for that sort of incentive.I've got access to good quality silk thread in various diameters and enoughinformation on finishing to feel confident about turning out a functionalsilk line shortly after I get my hands on the above mentioned plans. If Ican get that far, writing a book will be the easy part !! Best regards Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Cortland silk line braiding machines I looked for contact info for Cortland the other day after the original postand found none. They only want sales off their site. A letter might getthrownaway with such a crazy request. I would be interested too in getting amachineif they were for sale, and they are only 2-3 hours from me.Is there any info on how the whole process is done. Could one make a rig athome and make a line? It would be a great topic for a book or researchproject. Best regards,Bob Reed,I think it was you who mentioned a couple of days ago that Cortlandhad several silk line braiding machines "lying around". Do you have any be very interested if they had a "fire sale" on them.I must also congratulate you on your great web page too. Damnedfine effort !! Best regards Mike ====================================================================Brought to you by BuffNEThttp://www.buffnet.net from ajthramer@hotmail.com Wed Jun 14 00:32:29 2000 e5E5WSG02568 Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:32:24 PDT Subject: Bamboo and the press Now that I'm back I can't seem to shut up......Concerning the workings of the press.... In my dealings with the FF press in the late 80's (naive at best) I had thought that all in the business would be treated with an equal hand. Absolutely not true. Although if all builders would quit their 'real' jobs and produce cane at full speed we would not be able to dent the sales figures of the plastic rod mfg's, they guard their territory jealously through the bloated advertising that they are able to purchase. FF is not immune to the old addage that money talks. A fair test of fishing qualities between the two materials will never be done. The ignorant idea that casting distance is the overriding and only criteria of a rod has been deeply ingrained in the newer generation of FF men. My problem is that I firmly believe that bamboo delivers higher quality fishing performance and experience. Their was some talk about forming a bamboo guild so that we could cooperate and dispel many of the myths about bamboo, I am so tired of explaining that cane CAN be used with weighted flies, you need a heavier reel to balance them and they don't break at the slightest provocation that I am running out of breath, I briefly thought about writing a short pamphlet about the use, care and truth od cane but I don't think I possess the required polish.(maybe someone else?) About the guild idea ,I think the consensus was that we were too cranky as a group to ever cooperate on anything. To return to the original thread, it is immpossible to compete with the multi page full color "feel good" ads. I at first thought we would have to break through the predjudice against and misinformation about cane and we most likely still do, but the larger problem is to be taken seriously by the FF press and that won't happen with the way the large companies muscle us aside. (perhaps with the current administrations profligate use of the anti-trust laws...).A.J.Thramer________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com from timklein@uswest.net Wed Jun 14 01:00:00 2000 e5E5xxG03000 (63.225.240.211) Subject: Re: Math quiz Apologies Lee, After re-reading your earlier message, I see that I misunderstood what youwere suggesting. I see now that you proposed measuring across a single flat,not flat to flat across the section. While you are indeed correct, it's pretty difficult to measure the width ofa flat on an assembled section accurately. I'd say a quick calculation ofyour flat to flat measurement divided by .866 is probably both easier andmore accurate. Shawn's original question was how do you convert from one to the othermathematically. As a bamboo rod maker, I would investigate, calculate,graph, and grapple mightily with the problem until I came up with thecorrect answer within a thousandth of an inch. Your average, everyday, normal man would simply take the measuring deviceheused to measure the flat to flat dimension and measure apex to apex. (but then your average, everyday, normal man simply fishes with graphite) I think I used this line once before but... We're bamboo rodmakers. We don't do anything the easy way if we can helpit! (hmmm... sounds like I need to work that into a new sig line) ---Tim "I'm a bamboo rodmaker, and I don't do anything the easy way if I can helpit!" ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Math quiz Tim, I fail to see where the height of the triangle comes into the equation atall. Certainly the height, which is NOT a side, would have a slightlydifferent dimension. But as long as we deal with an equilateral triangle,Imaintain my statement is correct. The width of the flat must be equal tothe length of the glued side. Double that dimension and you have thedistance from the apex to the opposite apex. Lee from timklein@uswest.net Wed Jun 14 03:19:19 2000 e5E8JHG04397 (63.225.127.241) Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press (Apologies in advance for this long winded reply. It's late and I got on aroll...) I certainly won't argue with you about the FF media and manufacturers(though, I'd add fly shops to your list as well). Current perceptions are aninteresting question though. I'm not sure people are as swayed by thegraphite propaganda as you might believe. Keep in mind, John Gierach sells ahell of a lot of fishing books. He's helped to dispel many of the mythsabout bamboo, and I think he's contributed quite a bit to the resurgence inbamboo popularity. I think a healthy number, if not the majority, of flyfisherman would kill to get their hands on good bamboo rods. They're in thedark though, about how and where they can do that. My evidence is only anecdotal, but everywhere I go, people stop me to look,touch, and talk about the rods I'm using. When I used to fish plastic, I might get the occasional question about what brand I wasstringing up, but nothing else. It was only at the car while gearing up andrarely resulted in more than a passing comment. Now that I fish cane though, I almost dread the sight of another fisherman(well, I always dread other fisherman because I'm anti-social and I know hejust tromped through the hole I'm planning to fish. This is a different kindof dread) Nearly without fail, people stop me to look, touch, and talk aboutmy bamboo rod. They ooh and ahhh, they stroke it lovingly, and they wiggleit around hoping that I'll offer to let them cast it (this is starting tosound a little pornographic, isn't it?). They stop me at the car, along thetrail, they tromp through the water to see what I'm fishing. I had a guy afew weeks back just sit on the bank for 20 or 30 minutes watching me. I'mnot much of a caster (or fisherman, for that matter), and I got a littleself conscious. I decided to move downstream a little to get away from thegentleman (I thought he might be waiting for me to vacate his favorite spotor something), and I nodded at him as I approached the bank. It turned outhe was waiting politely to question me about the bamboo rod. Sure, I meet graphite diehards too. Their questions are different; How farcan you cast that thing? etc.. For the most part though, they're just asinterested and can see themselves owning one someday too. The point is, I think most fly fisherman know that bamboo is the ultimate intheir sport of choice. They all talk about wanting one, and only rarely askabout perceived shortcomings. Many mention that they understand bamboois"slower", but if you ask them what they think that means, most can't tellyou (Interestingly enough, people with Winston rods always seem to know,andI'm often told that their reason for selecting Winston is because of thisslower action. Several Winston owners have told me they bought the rodbecause they were told by salesmen that it's supposed to cast more like abamboo rod!) So why won't people who pay $600.00 for a Winston pony up a couple ofhundred more for the real thing? In my opinion, there's two main reasons: 1. The price myth - In nearly all of these streamside discussions, thefisherman believes that bamboo rods start at $1200 to $1500 and only goup from there. They are stunned to find out that brand new, beautiful, highquality rods are available in the $500 to $800 range! 2. Readily available or demo Bamboo rods - The most common question I'masked is, "Where did you get it?". People just don't know where to findbamboo rods...especially, NEW bamboo rods. Let me use my experiences as an example. After fly fishing for a couple ofyears, I started looking around for better rods. I tried to find info aboutbamboo, but all I found in fly shops were beat up old Shakespeare's and thelike. I'm in Colorado, where there is certainly no shortage of fly shops,but there sure aren't many that can (or are willing to) tell you anythingabout bamboo. They'll point you to Scott, Winston, Orvis, Thomas & Thomas,etc. who all show them in their catalogs but with their $2000.00 price tag,I could have bought 3 or 4 top of the line graphite rods! Sure, there are afew local makers around here, but is a fly shop likely to point you and your$500.00 out the door to the rodmaker down the street? Not likely! (I'd liketo think that the shop where I now regularly shop would, but not a singleone did at the time). It's really no wonder the price bugaboo hangs overbamboo. In addition, there wasn't a single new bamboo rod available to cast in anyof the dozen or so shops I tried. Sure, a couple of shops offered to pullthe old 10 footers off the wall for me, but only to show me that the bamboowasn't what I wanted. So, I said to myself, let me get this straight. I've got to shell out$2,000.00 sight unseen, to get my name on a list that should get me my rodin 6 weeks to 4 months? Or... I can try out a dozen different high end graphite rods, decide which one Ilike most, write a check for a quarter of the bamboo price and walk out thedoor with my rod in hand (along with a new fly line thrown in for free in mycase). The choice was pretty simple. I didn't choose graphite over bamboo due tothe "fragile" myth and I didn't care about the "distance" myth. In my case,it happened that it wasn't even about the "cost" myth (I was spending anunexpected bonus). All that mattered to me was that Orvis, et. al. wantedmeto risk my money sight unseen on some sort of "risky scheme"! Until bamboo rods are available to cast in fly shops, they will be a verysmall niche market. If they become available to cast, the market would growbut would still be limited by a lack of immediate availability. The webshows a lot of potential for helping kill the price myths, but I stillbelieve most people want to touch and try a rod before they buy. Rodmakersneed to work their own deals with their local flyshops (I'm sure manyalready do), if they really want to see gains in bamboo rod use. Once bamboogains popularity, some large company will come along with their massproduced rods and drive most of the lower end hand planers out of business,but there will always be a market for beautifully handcrafted custom rods from the well known makers. They'll get big bucks for their rods, andeveryone will be fishing bamboo...(except me, and maybe a few of you whowill be making Greenheart rods). Maybe being a niche market isn't so bad after all. ---Tim "I'm a bamboo rodmaker, and I don't do anything the easy way if I can helpit!" ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Bamboo and the press Now that I'm back I can't seem to shut up......Concerning the workings of the press.... In my dealings with the FF press in the late 80's (naive at best) I hadthought that all in the business would be treated with an equal hand.Absolutely not true. Although if all builders would quit their 'real' jobsand produce cane at full speed we would not be able to dent the salesfigures of the plastic rod mfg's, they guard their territory jealouslythrough the bloated advertising that they are able to purchase. FF is notimmune to the old addage that money talks. A fair test of fishingqualitiesbetween the two materials will never be done. The ignorant idea thatcastingdistance is the overriding and only criteria of a rod has been deeplyingrained in the newer generation of FF men. My problem is that I firmlybelieve that bamboo delivers higher quality fishing performance andexperience. Their was some talk about forming a bamboo guild so that wecould cooperate and dispel many of the myths about bamboo, I am so tiredofexplaining that cane CAN be used with weighted flies, you need a heavierreel to balance them and they don't break at the slightest provocationthatI am running out of breath, I briefly thought about writing a shortpamphletabout the use, care and truth od cane but I don't think I possess therequired polish.(maybe someone else?) About the guild idea ,I think theconsensus was that we were too cranky as a group to ever cooperate onanything. To return to the original thread, it is immpossible to compete with themulti page full color "feel good" ads. I at first thought we would have tobreak through the predjudice against and misinformation about cane andwemost likely still do, but the larger problem is to be taken seriously bytheFF press and that won't happen with the way the large companies muscleusaside. (perhaps with the current administrations profligate use of theanti-trust laws...).A.J.Thramer ________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com from jkcerise@rof.net Wed Jun 14 03:31:02 2000 e5E8V1G04678 Subject: Heddon refinish questions To the list,After lurking here for about a hundred years and soaking up as much aspossible for a non caner to soak up, (I get the impression that us plasticsbuilders must have plastic in our noggins!!) I have taken in a cane rod tobe refinished. Now I realize that I should have been paying a lot moreattention!! The peice in question is a Heddon #14 9'-2F-HDH or E withTHOROBRED written on the opposite flat from the size markings. It hasobviously been refinished with something that didn't dry well. Sort oflooks like it was a bit wet when it was dipped into the roadbase gravel!!To top that off it was obviously wet when it went back into the originalbag. Red silk(?) windings, black ferrules, plastic reel seat with aTan/light tan marbled appearance. A bit dark but not terribly so, justslightly darker than the old South Bend on my office wall. (My first flyrod!!) Cork is in pretty good shape and won't need any work to make itpassable. My question is, am I in over my head? (I know, if ya have toask, you are!!!) Wondering as well, if I refinish the thing for my buddy,am I going to destroy the value and what is the real value of the old girl.She has two tips, identical as far as my unpracticed eye can tell, both ofwhich have the same bubbly rough finish as the rest of the rod. General procedures?? Sand, Strip, what chemicals, what grit/type ofpaper, I need a few how to guidelines to follow to keep me on the righttrack or seriously, would this rod be better left alone or put into thehands if one of you experts out there. Talk to me about general pricing aswell, the rod belongs to a self described "Old Fart" and I respect that aswell. If it were MY rod, I'd have no problem taking this on as it wouldthen be MY loss IF,,,,,,,,,. BUT is is not mine and it is "Great UncleMartin's favorite rod", so to speak. No need to ask but here goes, Anygood advice??? Keep it straight and don't think for a second that you allare gonna hurt my feelin's. The truth, I can deal with, flattery or BSwill surely get me in big trouble with the "O.F." LOL!!! As for me I've been building (I know, ASSEMBLING!!) plastic rods for afewyears but this is my first venture into the world of real wood other thanthe finish job on that old 'first rod'. (Well, *I* think it loooks prettygood, but then again I'm no real judge of Bamboo Craftsmanship, bein' aplastics sort of guy, now, am I??) Offer your opinions freely and openly as they have been requested withagenerous bit of awe on my part, I truly respect the tremendous work of youcaners!! Where else could I get the honest, open, sort of advice I'masking for here? If my hat's on bass-ackwards, say it! Respectfully, JohnJohn K. CeriseColorado Custom Rods1205 CoRd 111Carbondale, CO 81623970-963-2795jkcerise@rof.net from nobler@satx.rr.com Wed Jun 14 04:01:50 2000 e5E91nG05058 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35);Wed, 14 Jun 2000 03:48:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Heddon refinish questions Just get some Safest Strip, or Citristrip, at your DIY store. Brush on acoat, let it sit 15 min. and start GENTLY wiping off the old varnish, withpaper towels. Omit the wraps, if they are nice, at first. If they are shot,clean it all. One or two coats will lift all the old stuff off, and take youto bare cane. You can scrape lightly for any small amount left, with theback if an Xacto blade, or utility knife blade. Just be gentle. If you have to re-wrap, make a diagram of all details, as you'll not be ableto recall once all is off. The rest is pretty straight forward. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Heddon refinish questions To the list,After lurking here for about a hundred years and soaking up as much aspossible for a non caner to soak up, (I get the impression that usplasticsbuilders must have plastic in our noggins!!) I have taken in a cane rod tobe refinished. Now I realize that I should have been paying a lot moreattention!! The peice in question is a Heddon #14 9'-2F-HDH or E withTHOROBRED written on the opposite flat from the size markings. It hasobviously been refinished with something that didn't dry well. Sort oflooks like it was a bit wet when it was dipped into the roadbase gravel!!To top that off it was obviously wet when it went back into the originalbag. Red silk(?) windings, black ferrules, plastic reel seat with aTan/light tan marbled appearance. A bit dark but not terribly so, justslightly darker than the old South Bend on my office wall. (My first flyrod!!) Cork is in pretty good shape and won't need any work to make itpassable. My question is, am I in over my head? (I know, if ya have toask, you are!!!) Wondering as well, if I refinish the thing for my buddy,am I going to destroy the value and what is the real value of the oldgirl.She has two tips, identical as far as my unpracticed eye can tell, bothofwhich have the same bubbly rough finish as the rest of the rod.General procedures?? Sand, Strip, what chemicals, what grit/type ofpaper, I need a few how to guidelines to follow to keep me on the righttrack or seriously, would this rod be better left alone or put into thehands if one of you experts out there. Talk to me about general pricingaswell, the rod belongs to a self described "Old Fart" and I respect that aswell. If it were MY rod, I'd have no problem taking this on as it wouldthen be MY loss IF,,,,,,,,,. BUT is is not mine and it is "Great UncleMartin's favorite rod", so to speak. No need to ask but here goes, Anygood advice??? Keep it straight and don't think for a second that you allare gonna hurt my feelin's. The truth, I can deal with, flattery or BSwill surely get me in big trouble with the "O.F." LOL!!!As for me I've been building (I know, ASSEMBLING!!) plastic rods for a fewyears but this is my first venture into the world of real wood other thanthe finish job on that old 'first rod'. (Well, *I* think it loooksprettygood, but then again I'm no real judge of Bamboo Craftsmanship, bein' aplastics sort of guy, now, am I??)Offer your opinions freely and openly as they have been requested with agenerous bit of awe on my part, I truly respect the tremendous work ofyoucaners!! Where else could I get the honest, open, sort of advice I'masking for here? If my hat's on bass-ackwards, say it! Respectfully, JohnJohn K. CeriseColorado Custom Rods1205 CoRd 111Carbondale, CO 81623970-963-2795jkcerise@rof.net from horsesho@ptd.net Wed Jun 14 06:09:20 2000 e5EB9JG06034 (204.186.33.22) Organization: ProLog Subject: Re: Heddon refinish questions Hi John, Take some computer paper , lay it out and map the wraps andguides etc. Use stripper to take off the old varnish but stay away fromthe writing on the shaft. Here you will have to polish the old varnishdown (when you recoat with new varnish you may have to add some stain tothe varnish in the butt area to blend the color so the change is not todrastic). If the silk is sound you can remove just the varnish includingthe varnish on the silk but my guess is that the silk is very weak andshould be removed. As far as pricing goes , 9' Heddons except highgrade models (#35,#50 #1000 )are worth only a couple hundred bucks andrefinishing should reflect that especially your first one. Marty To the list,After lurking here for about a hundred years and soaking up as muchaspossible for a non caner to soak up, (I get the impression that us plasticsbuilders must have plastic in our noggins!!) I have taken in a cane rod tobe refinished. Now I realize that I should have been paying a lot moreattention!! The peice in question is a Heddon #14 9'-2F-HDH or E withTHOROBRED written on the opposite flat from the size markings. It hasobviously been refinished with something that didn't dry well. Sort oflooks like it was a bit wet when it was dipped into the roadbase gravel!!To top that off it was obviously wet when it went back into the originalbag. Red silk(?) windings, black ferrules, plastic reel seat with aTan/light tan marbled appearance. A bit dark but not terribly so, justslightly darker than the old South Bend on my office wall. (My first flyrod!!) Cork is in pretty good shape and won't need any work to make itpassable. My question is, am I in over my head? (I know, if ya have toask, you are!!!) Wondering as well, if I refinish the thing for my buddy,am I going to destroy the value and what is the real value of the old girl.She has two tips, identical as far as my unpracticed eye can tell, both ofwhich have the same bubbly rough finish as the rest of the rod.General procedures?? Sand, Strip, what chemicals, what grit/type ofpaper, I need a few how to guidelines to follow to keep me on the righttrack or seriously, would this rod be better left alone or put into thehands if one of you experts out there. Talk to me about general pricing aswell, the rod belongs to a self described "Old Fart" and I respect that aswell. If it were MY rod, I'd have no problem taking this on as it wouldthen be MY loss IF,,,,,,,,,. BUT is is not mine and it is "Great UncleMartin's favorite rod", so to speak. No need to ask but here goes, Anygood advice??? Keep it straight and don't think for a second that you allare gonna hurt my feelin's. The truth, I can deal with, flattery or BSwill surely get me in big trouble with the "O.F." LOL!!!As for me I've been building (I know, ASSEMBLING!!) plastic rods for afewyears but this is my first venture into the world of real wood other thanthe finish job on that old 'first rod'. (Well, *I* think it loooks prettygood, but then again I'm no real judge of Bamboo Craftsmanship, bein' aplastics sort of guy, now, am I??)Offer your opinions freely and openly as they have been requestedwith agenerous bit of awe on my part, I truly respect the tremendous work ofyoucaners!! Where else could I get the honest, open, sort of advice I'masking for here? If my hat's on bass-ackwards, say it! Respectfully, JohnJohn K. CeriseColorado Custom Rods1205 CoRd 111Carbondale, CO 81623970-963-2795jkcerise@rof.net from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Jun 14 08:37:44 2000 e5EDbhG08682 Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:37:39 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press Tim and AJ,very well put, both of you! I strongly believe we and wealone are ambassadors of our craft. We as a collective could never competewiththe graphite giants, nor do I believe we should even try! We are a differentbreed of fisherman and we cater to people who seek an alternative.When people ask me "what makes your fancy bamboo rod somuchbetter than my rod" I just simply reply.......Nothing! What does make it betteris the whole fishing experience better IMHO. I think that the rod is actuallybetter too, but I don't like to hurt their feelings.When people ask me " isn't that bamboo stuff really fragile" Iask them if they have ever gotten a scratch on their graphite rod andwatched itshatter into a billion pieces.When they say that bamboo is expensive, I have a hard timedisputing that, especially here in Canada, but what I do say is that a wellmaintained cane rodis a heirloom that can be passed to your children and grandchildren andactuallymight be worth something when the next breed of graphite is released twomonths from now!Shawn Pineo Tim Klein wrote: (Apologies in advance for this long winded reply. It's late and I got on aroll...) I certainly won't argue with you about the FF media and manufacturers(though, I'd add fly shops to your list as well). Current perceptions are aninteresting question though. I'm not sure people are as swayed by thegraphite propaganda as you might believe. Keep in mind, John Gierach sellsahell of a lot of fishing books. He's helped to dispel many of the mythsabout bamboo, and I think he's contributed quite a bit to the resurgence inbamboo popularity. I think a healthy number, if not the majority, of flyfisherman would kill to get their hands on good bamboo rods. They're in thedark though, about how and where they can do that. My evidence is only anecdotal, but everywhere I go, people stop me to look,touch, and talk about the rods I'm using. When I used to fish plastic, I might get the occasional question about what brand I wasstringing up, but nothing else. It was only at the car while gearing up andrarely resulted in more than a passing comment. Now that I fish cane though, I almost dread the sight of another fisherman(well, I always dread other fisherman because I'm anti-social and I know hejust tromped through the hole I'm planning to fish. This is a different kindof dread) Nearly without fail, people stop me to look, touch, and talk aboutmy bamboo rod. They ooh and ahhh, they stroke it lovingly, and they wiggleit around hoping that I'll offer to let them cast it (this is starting tosound a little pornographic, isn't it?). They stop me at the car, along thetrail, they tromp through the water to see what I'm fishing. I had a guy afew weeks back just sit on the bank for 20 or 30 minutes watching me. I'mnot much of a caster (or fisherman, for that matter), and I got a littleself conscious. I decided to move downstream a little to get away from thegentleman (I thought he might be waiting for me to vacate his favoritespotor something), and I nodded at him as I approached the bank. It turned outhe was waiting politely to question me about the bamboo rod. Sure, I meet graphite diehards too. Their questions are different; How farcan you cast that thing? etc.. For the most part though, they're just asinterested and can see themselves owning one someday too. The point is, I think most fly fisherman know that bamboo is the ultimate intheir sport of choice. They all talk about wanting one, and only rarely askabout perceived shortcomings. Many mention that they understand bamboois"slower", but if you ask them what they think that means, most can't tellyou (Interestingly enough, people with Winston rods always seem to know,andI'm often told that their reason for selecting Winston is because of thisslower action. Several Winston owners have told me they bought the rodbecause they were told by salesmen that it's supposed to cast more like abamboo rod!) So why won't people who pay $600.00 for a Winston pony up a couple ofhundred more for the real thing? In my opinion, there's two main reasons: 1. The price myth - In nearly all of these streamside discussions, thefisherman believes that bamboo rods start at $1200 to $1500 and only goup from there. They are stunned to find out that brand new, beautiful, highquality rods are available in the $500 to $800 range! 2. Readily available or demo Bamboo rods - The most common question I'masked is, "Where did you get it?". People just don't know where to findbamboo rods...especially, NEW bamboo rods. Let me use my experiences as an example. After fly fishing for a couple ofyears, I started looking around for better rods. I tried to find info aboutbamboo, but all I found in fly shops were beat up old Shakespeare's and thelike. I'm in Colorado, where there is certainly no shortage of fly shops,but there sure aren't many that can (or are willing to) tell you anythingabout bamboo. They'll point you to Scott, Winston, Orvis, Thomas &Thomas,etc. who all show them in their catalogs but with their $2000.00 price tag,I could have bought 3 or 4 top of the line graphite rods! Sure, there are afew local makers around here, but is a fly shop likely to point you and your$500.00 out the door to the rodmaker down the street? Not likely! (I'd liketo think that the shop where I now regularly shop would, but not a singleone did at the time). It's really no wonder the price bugaboo hangs overbamboo. In addition, there wasn't a single new bamboo rod available to cast in anyof the dozen or so shops I tried. Sure, a couple of shops offered to pullthe old 10 footers off the wall for me, but only to show me that thebamboowasn't what I wanted. So, I said to myself, let me get this straight. I've got to shell out$2,000.00 sight unseen, to get my name on a list that should get me myrodin 6 weeks to 4 months? Or... I can try out a dozen different high end graphite rods, decide which one Ilike most, write a check for a quarter of the bamboo price and walk out thedoor with my rod in hand (along with a new fly line thrown in for free in mycase). The choice was pretty simple. I didn't choose graphite over bamboo due tothe "fragile" myth and I didn't care about the "distance" myth. In my case,it happened that it wasn't even about the "cost" myth (I was spending anunexpected bonus). All that mattered to me was that Orvis, et. al. wantedmeto risk my money sight unseen on some sort of "risky scheme"! Until bamboo rods are available to cast in fly shops, they will be a verysmall niche market. If they become available to cast, the market wouldgrowbut would still be limited by a lack of immediate availability. The webshows a lot of potential for helping kill the price myths, but I stillbelieve most people want to touch and try a rod before they buy.Rodmakersneed to work their own deals with their local flyshops (I'm sure manyalready do), if they really want to see gains in bamboo rod use. Oncebamboogains popularity, some large company will come along with their massproduced rods and drive most of the lower end hand planers out ofbusiness,but there will always be a market for beautifully handcrafted custom rods from the well known makers. They'll get big bucks for their rods, andeveryone will be fishing bamboo...(except me, and maybe a few of you whowill be making Greenheart rods). Maybe being a niche market isn't so bad after all. ---Tim "I'm a bamboo rodmaker, and I don't do anything the easy way if I can helpit!" ----- Original Message -----From: Allen Thramer Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 11:32 PMSubject: Bamboo and the press Now that I'm back I can't seem to shut up......Concerning the workings of the press.... In my dealings with the FF press in the late 80's (naive at best) I hadthought that all in the business would be treated with an equal hand.Absolutely not true. Although if all builders would quit their 'real' jobsand produce cane at full speed we would not be able to dent the salesfigures of the plastic rod mfg's, they guard their territory jealouslythrough the bloated advertising that they are able to purchase. FF is notimmune to the old addage that money talks. A fair test of fishingqualitiesbetween the two materials will never be done. The ignorant idea thatcastingdistance is the overriding and only criteria of a rod has been deeplyingrained in the newer generation of FF men. My problem is that I firmlybelieve that bamboo delivers higher quality fishing performance andexperience. Their was some talk about forming a bamboo guild so that wecould cooperate and dispel many of the myths about bamboo, I am sotiredofexplaining that cane CAN be used with weighted flies, you need a heavierreel to balance them and they don't break at the slightest provocationthatI am running out of breath, I briefly thought about writing a shortpamphletabout the use, care and truth od cane but I don't think I possess therequired polish.(maybe someone else?) About the guild idea ,I think theconsensus was that we were too cranky as a group to ever cooperate onanything. To return to the original thread, it is immpossible to compete with themulti page full color "feel good" ads. I at first thought we would have tobreak through the predjudice against and misinformation about cane andwemost likely still do, but the larger problem is to be taken seriously bytheFF press and that won't happen with the way the large companies muscleusaside. (perhaps with the current administrations profligate use of theanti-trust laws...).A.J.Thramer ________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail athttp://www.hotmail.com from darrell@rockclimbing.org Wed Jun 14 10:06:10 2000 e5EF6AG13140 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: Penta tip scarf repair! Importance: Normal Hey Don, I have Dave's Snakemaker... I can make one of the english guides for you...but, I'll let you flatten the feet... Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message----- Subject: Penta tip scarf repair! All, I took in a penta rod from a fellow FF club member, the rod had belonged toan old fishing buddy and was left to the club member in the friend's estate.The rod wasn't in fishable shape - one tip was broken at the ferrule and theother tip was delaminated above the ferrule. (about a 6" delamination) Plusthe rod had light mildew or other dark spots on the varnish. The club memberjust wanted it fixed up and said that it wouldn't be fished. I've cleaned the mildew off and it doesn't seem to be coming back. I fixed the delamination too. Well, I couldn't find a penta tip piece to scarf to the broken tip and so Iscarfed on an oversized piece of hex-rod tip. Then I filed and filed ....theresult isn't too bad! Dave LeClair made up a nice replacement ferrule for the tip and it's mountedtoo. Of course, the wrap main color is Granger Green - try finding that! DarrellLee to the rescue! Now I just need to find a size 3 or size 4 black English snake guide - onemore pain-in-the-butt item! So much for a simple rod restoration! Don Burns from darrell@rockclimbing.org Wed Jun 14 10:28:17 2000 e5EFSHG13786 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods Importance: Normal RE: Silk lines for less - Supply and demand... apparently the demandoutstrips the supply (3 month waiting time) so a line maker would not needor be willing to make them cheap, if they can sell them for $150-200. Whysell them for $75 when people will pay $200? If people won't buy them atthat price, then the maker would have to lower the price, but until their isan excess supply, the makers would not need to lower prices... ECON 101 Side note... I was at Marriotts last week and a wealthy foreign buyer who knew NOTHINGabout cane rods or even flyfishing, walked into Marriotts and bought themost expensive T&T cane rod, hard rubber reel, lines and all the trimmingsto turn him into a fly fisherman... from my inquiring ears, he'd never flyfished before and was all too happy to plunk down about $3,000+ for his toyswithout batting an eye. He wouldn't even look at the cheapo bamboo rods(refinished grossly overpriced $500 Montague rods) or the graphite rods...he simply wanted the most expensive toys in the store! He'll probably fishit once or twice but he'll get his money's worth by having a new toy to bragabout at the local watering hole, black tie charity ball or cocktail partyto impress the other beemer boys... It was interesting watching the saleslady (an expert flytier and caster)keep a straight face while loading up this mark... Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods My thought was that if enough would order at least one silk line, or even 2or 3 that would fit their needs, then combined with a commercial venture alarge enough order could be generated to make it feasible to make themagain! I'm thinking perhaps a firm that is respected, such as Golden Witch, were tobe interested, a constant supply of silk lines could be seen again, but at amuch more reasonable price. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George,Through an intermediary, some of us enquired about getting one of themachines. There was a lack of response.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk lines again ? GMA from tomchandler@apexweb.com Wed Jun 14 10:34:16 2000 e5EFYFG14087 Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:31:52 -0400 ESMTP(SMTPD32-6.00) id A6243A8D00C6; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:35:00 - 0400 Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press (long) It is great to have AJ back. As someone who doesn't build these things but does fish them 99.5% of thetime, I wanted to echo what AJ said and add to it a bit; I keep hearing( from people I run into on the river, on the Internet, and in the FF mags)that bamboo is pretty and nostalgic but that it suffers horribly in terms of*performance* when compared to graphite. I guess if your bag is line speed then bamboo does suffer, but since Idefine performance as a delicate presentation -- and having enough timewhile the cast is unrolling to get in a mend or two -- I think cane has the"performance" edge. Unfortunately it's like AJ said -- the guys with thebig ad budgets (and all the field reps) can cast the debate in whateverterms they wish, and since they want you to believe that higher line speedsare what counts, it's always going to be an uphill battle to talk cane withpeople who are convinced I use it because I'm a nostalgia freak. Finally, as a rod buyer, I have share my two glaring frustrations trying tobuy cane rods today. First, it's rare that you can test cast these thingsbefore you buy them. Even the bamboo freaks I know find tapers they like bycasting new rods that have come into their circle of friends -- I eventuallyget to cast a fair number of rods, but most graphite users (who don't haveany friends with bamboo) never do. These things aren't on the racks in mostshops, and when I run into people on the river they seem afraid to evenwiggle my bamboo rod, much less cast it. Second, as someone who fishes 8'-9' rods almost exclusively (the lengthsmost graphite users believe are the most 'useful'), it's hard to find anybuilders who have mucked around trying to develop the cosmic 8.5' 5wt rod.More often than not I'll talk to someone on the phone who will wax rhapsodicabout the 6'4" 3wt they spent years perfecting, but ask them about an 8.5'5wt and after a moment's silence they'll recall they might have an old taperwritten on the back of an envelope somewhere, and that they'd build it forme but they have no idea how it might cast. One builder has really gone out of his way to try and develop the 'perfect'longer rod for me, but most people aren't as lucky as I was when I stumbledonto him. So while a lot of graphite users may have an interest in a cane rod, theyprobably can't find one to test cast, and if they do, it could well besomething that's largely unsuited to day-in, day-out fishing. Please realize that I am not condemming the cane rod bulding trade; I knowthat even the guys who build rods to sell do it more for the satsifactionthan the money (so you can frankly build whatever you damn well please), butI did want to point out the difficulties I've encountered from thestandpoint of someone who fishes these things because I think they'reprettydamned effective fishing tools -- not because I wish to impress atstreamside. Thanks for making it this far... 8-) Tom Chandler ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Bamboo and the press Now that I'm back I can't seem to shut up......Concerning the workings of the press.... In my dealings with the FF press in the late 80's (naive at best) I hadthought that all in the business would be treated with an equal hand.Absolutely not true. Although if all builders would quit their 'real' jobsand produce cane at full speed we would not be able to dent the salesfigures of the plastic rod mfg's, they guard their territory jealouslythrough the bloated advertising that they are able to purchase. FF is notimmune to the old addage that money talks. A fair test of fishingqualitiesbetween the two materials will never be done. The ignorant idea thatcastingdistance is the overriding and only criteria of a rod has been deeplyingrained in the newer generation of FF men. My problem is that I firmlybelieve that bamboo delivers higher quality fishing performance andexperience. Their was some talk about forming a bamboo guild so that wecould cooperate and dispel many of the myths about bamboo, I am so tiredofexplaining that cane CAN be used with weighted flies, you need a heavierreel to balance them and they don't break at the slightest provocationthatI am running out of breath, I briefly thought about writing a shortpamphletabout the use, care and truth od cane but I don't think I possess therequired polish.(maybe someone else?) About the guild idea ,I think theconsensus was that we were too cranky as a group to ever cooperate onanything. To return to the original thread, it is immpossible to compete with themulti page full color "feel good" ads. I at first thought we would have tobreak through the predjudice against and misinformation about cane andwemost likely still do, but the larger problem is to be taken seriously bytheFF press and that won't happen with the way the large companies muscleusaside. (perhaps with the current administrations profligate use of theanti-trust laws...).A.J.Thramer ________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com from jmpio@nhbm.com Wed Jun 14 10:34:56 2000 e5EFYtG14193 Subject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods Remember, those "marks" help keep our favorite flyshops in business. Afew more folks with money to burn like that could really help the shopskeep margins down. They also boost the demand for cane rods. Maybe weneed to be encouraging the idea that if you want the absolute best, whenmoney is no object, then a $2,000 cane rod is the way to go. That willalmost certainly help drive up the market for those $600 to $1400 rodsthat most of the guys on this list are building. Montague? If so, please tell me how, I've got a couple I'd love totrade in for one decent rod. :-) -----Original Message-----From: Darrell A. Lee [SMTP:darrell@rockclimbing.org]Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:25 AM Cc: bob maulucci; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods RE: Silk lines for less - Supply and demand... apparently the demandoutstrips the supply (3 month waiting time) so a line maker would notneedor be willing to make them cheap, if they can sell them for $150- 200.Whysell them for $75 when people will pay $200? If people won't buy thematthat price, then the maker would have to lower the price, but untiltheir isan excess supply, the makers would not need to lower prices... ECON101 Side note... I was at Marriotts last week and a wealthy foreign buyer who knewNOTHINGabout cane rods or even flyfishing, walked into Marriotts and boughtthemost expensive T&T cane rod, hard rubber reel, lines and all thetrimmingsto turn him into a fly fisherman... from my inquiring ears, he'd neverflyfished before and was all too happy to plunk down about $3,000+ forhis toyswithout batting an eye. He wouldn't even look at the cheapo bamboorods(refinished grossly overpriced $500 Montague rods) or the graphiterods...he simply wanted the most expensive toys in the store! He'll probablyfishit once or twice but he'll get his money's worth by having a new toyto bragabout at the local watering hole, black tie charity ball or cocktailpartyto impress the other beemer boys... It was interesting watching the saleslady (an expert flytier andcaster)keep a straight face while loading up this mark... Darrell -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 1:56 PM Cc: bob maulucci; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods My thought was that if enough would order at least one silk line, oreven 2or 3 that would fit their needs, then combined with a commercialventure alarge enough order could be generated to make it feasible to make themagain! I'm thinking perhaps a firm that is respected, such as Golden Witch,were tobe interested, a constant supply of silk lines could be seen again,but at amuch more reasonable price. GMA----- Original Message -----From: "reed curry" Cc: "bob maulucci" ; Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 9:12 AMSubject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George,Through an intermediary, some of us enquired about getting oneof themachines. There was a lack of response.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk linesagain ? GMA from darrell@rockclimbing.org Wed Jun 14 10:49:37 2000 e5EFnaG14715 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: Penta tip scarf repair! Importance: Normal That stuff Anglers workshop sells is called Granger Green, but I've triedthat stuff and it doesn't look anything like the original thread oncefinished... Finished, it looks like olive drab, not the bright/brilliantyellowish/green that it should look. I tried using 4 different colorpreservers, 3 different varnishes and nearly every combination of each andwasted about 5-10 hours trying to make that thread work without success... In the end, I gave up, used that thread and sold the rod out of disgust for1/2 the value it would have sold for if I had found the correct thread...Just before shipping out the rod, I came across some vintage stock of Rice'ssilk and it is a perfect match to the original thread! I was SUPER BUMMED!!! My point, is do a test wrap for yourself with that silk before you wrap allthe wraps to check to see if it is satisfactory for you... Restorations cansometimes be very frustrating trying to match the thread... Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Penta tip scarf repair! I recently purchased some Granger Green thread from Angler's Workshop -their color 161. They have both A and 3/0. Their web site iswww.anglersworkshop.com. This silk thread is from Japan. At 06:56 PM 6/13/00 EDT, Canerods@aol.com wrote:All, I took in a penta rod from a fellow FF club member, the rod had belonged toan old fishing buddy and was left to the club member in the friend'sestate.The rod wasn't in fishable shape - one tip was broken at the ferrule andtheother tip was delaminated above the ferrule. (about a 6" delamination) Plusthe rod had light mildew or other dark spots on the varnish. The clubmemberjust wanted it fixed up and said that it wouldn't be fished. I've cleaned the mildew off and it doesn't seem to be coming back. I fixed the delamination too. Well, I couldn't find a penta tip piece to scarf to the broken tip and so Iscarfed on an oversized piece of hex-rod tip. Then I filed and filed ....theresult isn't too bad! Dave LeClair made up a nice replacement ferrule for the tip and it'smountedtoo. Of course, the wrap main color is Granger Green - try finding that! DarrellLee to the rescue! Now I just need to find a size 3 or size 4 black English snake guide - onemore pain-in-the-butt item! So much for a simple rod restoration! Don Burns from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Wed Jun 14 10:51:30 2000 e5EFpTG14832 8:55:36 PDT John, Refinishing this particular rod will not lower it's value. Retain the writing. Cover it with masking tape while using the stripper, and generally keep the stripper away from the covered area. I would stay away from any kind of sandpaper entirely. You could use 0000 steel wool to scrub off any stubborn varnish residue once the bulk of the finish is off. Heddon rods often show the soft alligatored varnish that you mention. Someone once suggested to me that it was the solvents in the varnish that re activated the finish when stored for long periods of time in a closed container. Maybe heat promotes it. I don't know except it is prolific in Heddon rods. Red silk "Chinese Red" I think it is referred to as in the Anglers Workshop YLI Japanese silk chart. Use 3/0 for the tips and A at the ferrules and butt, or use 3/0 over the whole thing if the ferrule fit is smooth. 3/0 black silk for the tipping. Preserve the silk to get the best match. Usually the #14 Thorobred (I've always wondered why it was spelled this way, a play on thoroughbred I guess) had black lacquered ferrules rather then oxidized. I use spray on black lacquer applied in a couple of thin coats after smoothing it all down with 0000 steel wool. Don't re-paint the ferrules unless they are nicked up badly and the finish is worn away. It should be a good rod to start on, and as you go along, keep asking this list your questions. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu---------- Original Text ---------- To the list,After lurking here for about a hundred years and soaking up as much aspossible for a non caner to soak up, (I get the impression that us plasticsbuilders must have plastic in our noggins!!) I have taken in a cane rod tobe refinished. Now I realize that I should have been paying a lot moreattention!! The peice in question is a Heddon #14 9'-2F-HDH or E withTHOROBRED written on the opposite flat from the size markings. It hasobviously been refinished with something that didn't dry well. Sort oflooks like it was a bit wet when it was dipped into the roadbase gravel!!To top that off it was obviously wet when it went back into the originalbag. Red silk(?) windings, black ferrules, plastic reel seat with aTan/light tan marbled appearance. A bit dark but not terribly so, justslightly darker than the old South Bend on my office wall. (My first flyrod!!) Cork is in pretty good shape and won't need any work to make itpassable. My question is, am I in over my head? (I know, if ya have toask, you are!!!) Wondering as well, if I refinish the thing for my buddy,am I going to destroy the value and what is the real value of the old girl.She has two tips, identical as far as my unpracticed eye can tell, both ofwhich have the same bubbly rough finish as the rest of the rod. General procedures?? Sand, Strip, what chemicals, what grit/type ofpaper, I need a few how to guidelines to follow to keep me on the righttrack or seriously, would this rod be better left alone or put into thehands if one of you experts out there. Talk to me about general pricing aswell, the rod belongs to a self described "Old Fart" and I respect that aswell. If it were MY rod, I'd have no problem taking this on as it wouldthen be MY loss IF,,,,,,,,,. BUT is is not mine and it is "Great UncleMartin's favorite rod", so to speak. No need to ask but here goes, Anygood advice??? Keep it straight and don't think for a second that you allare gonna hurt my feelin's. The truth, I can deal with, flattery or BSwill surely get me in big trouble with the "O.F." LOL!!! As for me I've been building (I know, ASSEMBLING!!) plastic rods for afewyears but this is my first venture into the world of real wood other thanthe finish job on that old 'first rod'. (Well, *I* think it loooks prettygood, but then again I'm no real judge of Bamboo Craftsmanship, bein' aplastics sort of guy, now, am I??) Offer your opinions freely and openly as they have been requested withagenerous bit of awe on my part, I truly respect the tremendous work of youcaners!! Where else could I get the honest, open, sort of advice I'masking for here? If my hat's on bass-ackwards, say it! Respectfully, JohnJohn K. CeriseColorado Custom Rods1205 CoRd 111Carbondale, CO 81623970-963-2795jkcerise@rof.net from rmoon@ida.net Wed Jun 14 10:55:21 2000 e5EFtJG15074 Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press Well SaidRalph from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Jun 14 11:34:26 2000 e5EGYPG16356 ajthramer@hotmail.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Bamboo and the press (long) These are great posts, and they got me thinking about the way some groupsband together to advertise their common product, rather than individualbusinesses. You see this a lot from food producers -- ads for Milk but not Certainly we can't match the big companies, but we might be able to bandtogether to buy some half or full page ads addressing some of the excellentpoints you've made -- bamboo is not fragile, bamboo is better for the 90% ofyour casts that are short, etc. Would members of this list subscribe to sucha thing? If there's significant interest I'll check out the ad rates. As fordesign, I'm pretty sure I could get our graphic artist at my office to helpout, though there's probably a lot of design talent among list members, too. Barry Kling -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press (long) It is great to have AJ back. As someone who doesn't build these things but does fish them 99.5% of thetime, I wanted to echo what AJ said and add to it a bit; I keep hearing( from people I run into on the river, on the Internet, and in the FF mags)that bamboo is pretty and nostalgic but that it suffers horribly in terms of*performance* when compared to graphite. I guess if your bag is line speed then bamboo does suffer, but since Idefine performance as a delicate presentation -- and having enough timewhile the cast is unrolling to get in a mend or two -- I think cane has the"performance" edge. Unfortunately it's like AJ said -- the guys with thebig ad budgets (and all the field reps) can cast the debate in whateverterms they wish, and since they want you to believe that higher line speedsare what counts, it's always going to be an uphill battle to talk cane withpeople who are convinced I use it because I'm a nostalgia freak. Finally, as a rod buyer, I have share my two glaring frustrations trying tobuy cane rods today. First, it's rare that you can test cast these thingsbefore you buy them. Even the bamboo freaks I know find tapers they like bycasting new rods that have come into their circle of friends -- I eventuallyget to cast a fair number of rods, but most graphite users (who don't haveany friends with bamboo) never do. These things aren't on the racks in mostshops, and when I run into people on the river they seem afraid to evenwiggle my bamboo rod, much less cast it. Second, as someone who fishes 8'-9' rods almost exclusively (the lengthsmost graphite users believe are the most 'useful'), it's hard to find anybuilders who have mucked around trying to develop the cosmic 8.5' 5wt rod.More often than not I'll talk to someone on the phone who will wax rhapsodicabout the 6'4" 3wt they spent years perfecting, but ask them about an 8.5'5wt and after a moment's silence they'll recall they might have an old taperwritten on the back of an envelope somewhere, and that they'd build it forme but they have no idea how it might cast. One builder has really gone out of his way to try and develop the 'perfect'longer rod for me, but most people aren't as lucky as I was when I stumbledonto him. So while a lot of graphite users may have an interest in a cane rod, theyprobably can't find one to test cast, and if they do, it could well besomething that's largely unsuited to day-in, day-out fishing. Please realize that I am not condemming the cane rod bulding trade; I knowthat even the guys who build rods to sell do it more for the satsifactionthan the money (so you can frankly build whatever you damn well please), butI did want to point out the difficulties I've encountered from thestandpoint of someone who fishes these things because I think they'reprettydamned effective fishing tools -- not because I wish to impress atstreamside. Thanks for making it this far... 8-) Tom Chandler ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Bamboo and the press Now that I'm back I can't seem to shut up......Concerning the workings of the press.... In my dealings with the FF press in the late 80's (naive at best) I hadthought that all in the business would be treated with an equal hand.Absolutely not true. Although if all builders would quit their 'real' jobsand produce cane at full speed we would not be able to dent the salesfigures of the plastic rod mfg's, they guard their territory jealouslythrough the bloated advertising that they are able to purchase. FF is notimmune to the old addage that money talks. A fair test of fishingqualitiesbetween the two materials will never be done. The ignorant idea thatcastingdistance is the overriding and only criteria of a rod has been deeplyingrained in the newer generation of FF men. My problem is that I firmlybelieve that bamboo delivers higher quality fishing performance andexperience. Their was some talk about forming a bamboo guild so that wecould cooperate and dispel many of the myths about bamboo, I am so tiredofexplaining that cane CAN be used with weighted flies, you need a heavierreel to balance them and they don't break at the slightest provocationthatI am running out of breath, I briefly thought about writing a shortpamphletabout the use, care and truth od cane but I don't think I possess therequired polish.(maybe someone else?) About the guild idea ,I think theconsensus was that we were too cranky as a group to ever cooperate onanything. To return to the original thread, it is immpossible to compete with themulti page full color "feel good" ads. I at first thought we would have tobreak through the predjudice against and misinformation about cane andwemost likely still do, but the larger problem is to be taken seriously bytheFF press and that won't happen with the way the large companies muscleusaside. (perhaps with the current administrations profligate use of theanti-trust laws...).A.J.Thramer ________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Wed Jun 14 11:53:28 2000 e5EGrRG17265 9:57:36 PDT Subject: RE: Bamboo and the press (long) I agree, the subject matter today is very good. Keep it coming. It might also be interesting to take a poll of those who sell rods and ask them if they are suffering from lack of sales. Not just the makers on this listserv, but all known makers. If they all have a waiting list, then paying for advertising may not be of interest to them. They couldn't supply the increased demand anyway. If advertising increased knowledge, interest, and sales then there would need to be more readily available rods from these small time makers to answerthe demand, otherwise those that would really benefit from the increased advertising would be the larger companies who could fire up the assembly lines and increase production of there own rods at a reduced price. I think some of you have already said this, I'm just adding my thoughts. higher end graphite flyrods that are sold in a year? Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu---------- Original Text ---------- These are great posts, and they got me thinking about the way some groupsband together to advertise their common product, rather than individualbusinesses. You see this a lot from food producers -- ads for Milk but not Certainly we can't match the big companies, but we might be able to bandtogether to buy some half or full page ads addressing some of the excellentpoints you've made -- bamboo is not fragile, bamboo is better for the 90% ofyour casts that are short, etc. Would members of this list subscribe to sucha thing? If there's significant interest I'll check out the ad rates. As fordesign, I'm pretty sure I could get our graphic artist at my office to helpout, though there's probably a lot of design talent among list members, too. Barry Kling -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press (long) It is great to have AJ back. As someone who doesn't build these things but does fish them 99.5% of thetime, I wanted to echo what AJ said and add to it a bit; I keep hearing( from people I run into on the river, on the Internet, and in the FF mags)that bamboo is pretty and nostalgic but that it suffers horribly in terms of*performance* when compared to graphite. I guess if your bag is line speed then bamboo does suffer, but since Idefine performance as a delicate presentation -- and having enough timewhile the cast is unrolling to get in a mend or two -- I think cane has the"performance" edge. Unfortunately it's like AJ said -- the guys with thebig ad budgets (and all the field reps) can cast the debate in whateverterms they wish, and since they want you to believe that higher line speedsare what counts, it's always going to be an uphill battle to talk cane withpeople who are convinced I use it because I'm a nostalgia freak. Finally, as a rod buyer, I have share my two glaring frustrations trying tobuy cane rods today. First, it's rare that you can test cast these thingsbefore you buy them. Even the bamboo freaks I know find tapers they like bycasting new rods that have come into their circle of friends -- I eventuallyget to cast a fair number of rods, but most graphite users (who don't haveany friends with bamboo) never do. These things aren't on the racks in mostshops, and when I run into people on the river they seem afraid to evenwiggle my bamboo rod, much less cast it. Second, as someone who fishes 8'-9' rods almost exclusively (the lengthsmost graphite users believe are the most 'useful'), it's hard to find anybuilders who have mucked around trying to develop the cosmic 8.5' 5wt rod.More often than not I'll talk to someone on the phone who will wax rhapsodicabout the 6'4" 3wt they spent years perfecting, but ask them about an 8.5'5wt and after a moment's silence they'll recall they might have an old taperwritten on the back of an envelope somewhere, and that they'd build it forme but they have no idea how it might cast. One builder has really gone out of his way to try and develop the 'perfect'longer rod for me, but most people aren't as lucky as I was when I stumbledonto him. So while a lot of graphite users may have an interest in a cane rod, theyprobably can't find one to test cast, and if they do, it could well besomething that's largely unsuited to day-in, day-out fishing. Please realize that I am not condemming the cane rod bulding trade; I knowthat even the guys who build rods to sell do it more for the satsifactionthan the money (so you can frankly build whatever you damn well please), butI did want to point out the difficulties I've encountered from thestandpoint of someone who fishes these things because I think they'reprettydamned effective fishing tools -- not because I wish to impress atstreamside. Thanks for making it this far... 8-) Tom Chandler ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Bamboo and the press Now that I'm back I can't seem to shut up......Concerning the workings of the press.... In my dealings with the FF press in the late 80's (naive at best) I hadthought that all in the business would be treated with an equal hand.Absolutely not true. Although if all builders would quit their 'real' jobsand produce cane at full speed we would not be able to dent the salesfigures of the plastic rod mfg's, they guard their territory jealouslythrough the bloated advertising that they are able to purchase. FF is notimmune to the old addage that money talks. A fair test of fishingqualitiesbetween the two materials will never be done. The ignorant idea thatcastingdistance is the overriding and only criteria of a rod has been deeplyingrained in the newer generation of FF men. My problem is that I firmlybelieve that bamboo delivers higher quality fishing performance andexperience. Their was some talk about forming a bamboo guild so that wecould cooperate and dispel many of the myths about bamboo, I am so tiredofexplaining that cane CAN be used with weighted flies, you need a heavierreel to balance them and they don't break at the slightest provocationthatI am running out of breath, I briefly thought about writing a shortpamphletabout the use, care and truth od cane but I don't think I possess therequired polish.(maybe someone else?) About the guild idea ,I think theconsensus was that we were too cranky as a group to ever cooperate onanything. To return to the original thread, it is immpossible to compete with themulti page full color "feel good" ads. I at first thought we would have tobreak through the predjudice against and misinformation about cane andwemost likely still do, but the larger problem is to be taken seriously bytheFF press and that won't happen with the way the large companies muscleusaside. (perhaps with the current administrations profligate use of theanti-trust laws...).A.J.Thramer ________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com from Dean_Burrill@mcafee.com Wed Jun 14 12:18:14 2000 e5EHIDG18000 Subject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods from the little research I've been able to do on the topic it appears goodsilk lines have always been expensive. I looked through some catalogreproductions I've got. In 1919 a premium quality silk line was $6 to $8dollars! In 1931 Hardy's charged 23 lbs. for their premium line...you couldbuy a Perfect reel for 42 lbs. These are staggeringly high prices and areprobably higher relative to average income than the current $175. Another thing to remember is the Phoenix lines are not cranked out onmachines at a thousand feet per minute. For the most part they are a handmade hand finished product. I have not affiliation with the mentioned product, I'm just trying tojustify the price to myself so I can buy one with a clear conscience. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods RE: Silk lines for less - Supply and demand... apparently the demandoutstrips the supply (3 month waiting time) so a line maker would not needor be willing to make them cheap, if they can sell them for $150-200. Whysell them for $75 when people will pay $200? If people won't buy them atthat price, then the maker would have to lower the price, but until their isan excess supply, the makers would not need to lower prices... ECON 101 Side note... I was at Marriotts last week and a wealthy foreign buyer who knew NOTHINGabout cane rods or even flyfishing, walked into Marriotts and bought themost expensive T&T cane rod, hard rubber reel, lines and all the trimmingsto turn him into a fly fisherman... from my inquiring ears, he'd never flyfished before and was all too happy to plunk down about $3,000+ for his toyswithout batting an eye. He wouldn't even look at the cheapo bamboo rods(refinished grossly overpriced $500 Montague rods) or the graphite rods...he simply wanted the most expensive toys in the store! He'll probably fishit once or twice but he'll get his money's worth by having a new toy to bragabout at the local watering hole, black tie charity ball or cocktail partyto impress the other beemer boys... It was interesting watching the saleslady (an expert flytier and caster)keep a straight face while loading up this mark... Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods My thought was that if enough would order at least one silk line, or even 2or 3 that would fit their needs, then combined with a commercial venture alarge enough order could be generated to make it feasible to make themagain! I'm thinking perhaps a firm that is respected, such as Golden Witch, were tobe interested, a constant supply of silk lines could be seen again, but at amuch more reasonable price. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George,Through an intermediary, some of us enquired about getting one of themachines. There was a lack of response.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk lines again ? GMA from tomchandler@apexweb.com Wed Jun 14 13:09:47 2000 e5EI9kG19737 Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:05:59 -0400 ESMTP(SMTPD32-6.00) id AA9529300108; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:10:29 - 0400 Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press (long) Chris: If advertising increased knowledge, interest, and sales then there wouldneedto be more readily available rods from these small time makers to answerthedemand, otherwise those that would really benefit from the increasedadvertising would be the larger companies who could fire up the assemblylines and increase production of there own rods at a reduced price. Ithinksome of you have already said this, I'm just adding my thoughts. As someone who has spent a great deal of the last 15 years in the ad game,I'd have to honestly say ads from a "cane rod" industry association wouldlikely not help the situation in the long run, and the media costs in thisindustry are frankly pretty high. A much better -- and cheaper -- bet lieswith an effective PR game (i.e. -- one John Gierach is worth years worth ofglossy magazine ads). This is one reason I've lamented the passing of theBBFR magazine. A few more articles in the mainstream industry rags wouldprobably stimulate demand far beyond the ability of most hobbyist buildersto match it. At the risk of repeating what Chris just said, as a buyer, I think talk ofincreasing demand for rods is moot until there is more production capacityavailable. For example, I know that James Beasley (near Nashville) couldprobably sell 50 of his wonderfully fishable modified Perfectionist rods peryear (he's so sick of building the thing he's turning away orders), but thatwill simply never happen unless he perfects his own mill or contracts withsomeone else who already has. It's great to hear that AJ is back at building full time, but I'm willing tobet that an article or two in the mainstream mags would max out his abilityto meet demand. As for hand-planing, I watched Mark Ruhe's waiting periodgo from 4-6 weeks to nine months based on the effect of a BBFR article, acouple mentions in dealer catalogs, and some positive postings on theInternet. And while Mike Clark builds a nice rod, it's hard to imagine thatmost new cane rod users would want to wait three years for one of his rods,John Gierach or not. If enough production capacity were available, I think an industryassociation could easily stimulate demand for the rods through editorialchannels along with a few special events, like a "cast a bamboo rod today"booth at some of the bigger sporting shows. Still, in an industry dominated many strides forward. This is not a comdemnation (I'm actually pretty happywith the idea that I can talk directly to the builder about my rod asopposed to buying whatever taper Sage decides I need), but I do think weshould be realistic about growing demand in a market where very little room Thanks again for listening. Since I don't build, I appreciate this chanceto contribute... 8-) Tight lines,Tom Chandler from darrell@rockclimbing.org Wed Jun 14 13:50:56 2000 e5EIojG21067 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: $500 Montagues Importance: Normal Well, they keep trying... but actually they are poorly refinished Monty'sand other low grade rods on consignment. He's also got a few banty rods hewants $350-450 for... but, they would only sell to someone with absolutelyno knowledge and a big wallet... They've been sitting there for a year ortwo so I don't know if anybody's ever bitten on those junkers... He relabelsthem with his name on the rods... Remember, a seller can ASK any price...but the buyers determine the true value... Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods Remember, those "marks" help keep our favorite flyshops in business. Afew more folks with money to burn like that could really help the shopskeep margins down. They also boost the demand for cane rods. Maybe weneed to be encouraging the idea that if you want the absolute best, whenmoney is no object, then a $2,000 cane rod is the way to go. That willalmost certainly help drive up the market for those $600 to $1400 rodsthat most of the guys on this list are building. Montague? If so, please tell me how, I've got a couple I'd love totrade in for one decent rod. :-) -----Original Message-----From: Darrell A. Lee [SMTP:darrell@rockclimbing.org]Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:25 AM Cc: bob maulucci; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods RE: Silk lines for less - Supply and demand... apparently the demandoutstrips the supply (3 month waiting time) so a line maker would notneedor be willing to make them cheap, if they can sell them for $150- 200.Whysell them for $75 when people will pay $200? If people won't buy thematthat price, then the maker would have to lower the price, but untiltheir isan excess supply, the makers would not need to lower prices... ECON101 Side note... I was at Marriotts last week and a wealthy foreign buyer who knewNOTHINGabout cane rods or even flyfishing, walked into Marriotts and boughtthemost expensive T&T cane rod, hard rubber reel, lines and all thetrimmingsto turn him into a fly fisherman... from my inquiring ears, he'd neverflyfished before and was all too happy to plunk down about $3,000+ forhis toyswithout batting an eye. He wouldn't even look at the cheapo bamboorods(refinished grossly overpriced $500 Montague rods) or the graphiterods...he simply wanted the most expensive toys in the store! He'll probablyfishit once or twice but he'll get his money's worth by having a new toyto bragabout at the local watering hole, black tie charity ball or cocktailpartyto impress the other beemer boys... It was interesting watching the saleslady (an expert flytier andcaster)keep a straight face while loading up this mark... Darrell -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 1:56 PM Cc: bob maulucci; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods My thought was that if enough would order at least one silk line, oreven 2or 3 that would fit their needs, then combined with a commercialventure alarge enough order could be generated to make it feasible to make themagain! I'm thinking perhaps a firm that is respected, such as Golden Witch,were tobe interested, a constant supply of silk lines could be seen again,but at amuch more reasonable price. GMA----- Original Message -----From: "reed curry" Cc: "bob maulucci" ; Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 9:12 AMSubject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George,Through an intermediary, some of us enquired about getting oneof themachines. There was a lack of response.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk linesagain ? GMA from DNHayashida@aol.com Wed Jun 14 14:01:28 2000 e5EJ1SG21482 2000 15:01:19 -0400 Subject: Re: $500 Montagues Marriott's is close by my house, I go there often. The refinished cane rodsare very bad. Lumpy varnish, bad wraps, sets. But, they are right outside thenew bamboo rod case, and those are going for $1800 to $3500. Maybe theygain value through osmosis.Darryl (not Darrell) from darrell@rockclimbing.org Wed Jun 14 14:02:07 2000 e5EJ25G21563 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods Importance: Normal That's right... I have a 30's catalog where you could buy a Goodwin GrangerSpecial 7.5' 3/2 (on sale, regularly priced at $14.75) for $9.75, or thebottom grade H-I for 95 cents... yet a Ashaway silk line would cost you$10.00... So in today's dollars... silk lines are truly a bargain! Darrell BTW, Dean, I have a EC Powell that has no writing on the shaft, it is a 9'2/2 that weights only 4.2 oz. At that light weight, I presume it is aHollowbuilt and feels like a trout weight rod... It has the EC Powell markedreel seat and has the original tube and rayon bag. The tube was mailed toBrocks in Bishop in 1953... Since I know you own a few of these rods, canyou tell me how to determine if this is a hollowbuilt? -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods from the little research I've been able to do on the topic it appears goodsilk lines have always been expensive. I looked through some catalogreproductions I've got. In 1919 a premium quality silk line was $6 to $8dollars! In 1931 Hardy's charged 23 lbs. for their premium line...you couldbuy a Perfect reel for 42 lbs. These are staggeringly high prices and areprobably higher relative to average income than the current $175. Another thing to remember is the Phoenix lines are not cranked out onmachines at a thousand feet per minute. For the most part they are a handmade hand finished product. I have not affiliation with the mentioned product, I'm just trying tojustify the price to myself so I can buy one with a clear conscience. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods RE: Silk lines for less - Supply and demand... apparently the demandoutstrips the supply (3 month waiting time) so a line maker would not needor be willing to make them cheap, if they can sell them for $150-200. Whysell them for $75 when people will pay $200? If people won't buy them atthat price, then the maker would have to lower the price, but until their isan excess supply, the makers would not need to lower prices... ECON 101 Side note... I was at Marriotts last week and a wealthy foreign buyer who knew NOTHINGabout cane rods or even flyfishing, walked into Marriotts and bought themost expensive T&T cane rod, hard rubber reel, lines and all the trimmingsto turn him into a fly fisherman... from my inquiring ears, he'd never flyfished before and was all too happy to plunk down about $3,000+ for his toyswithout batting an eye. He wouldn't even look at the cheapo bamboo rods(refinished grossly overpriced $500 Montague rods) or the graphite rods...he simply wanted the most expensive toys in the store! He'll probably fishit once or twice but he'll get his money's worth by having a new toy to bragabout at the local watering hole, black tie charity ball or cocktail partyto impress the other beemer boys... It was interesting watching the saleslady (an expert flytier and caster)keep a straight face while loading up this mark... Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods My thought was that if enough would order at least one silk line, or even 2or 3 that would fit their needs, then combined with a commercial venture alarge enough order could be generated to make it feasible to make themagain! I'm thinking perhaps a firm that is respected, such as Golden Witch, were tobe interested, a constant supply of silk lines could be seen again, but at amuch more reasonable price. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George,Through an intermediary, some of us enquired about getting one of themachines. There was a lack of response.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk lines again ? GMA from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Wed Jun 14 14:02:44 2000 e5EJ2hG21678 12:06:54 PDT Subject: re: $500 Montagues That's funny Darrell. I have a few of those mid/tip banties. Someday I would like to walk into an all bamboo fly shop with a variety of bamboo rods from several makers. Under the glass counter I would like to see a Abu Garcia graphite rod with a $1000 price tag on it, and plastic over the grip, just for conversation purposes. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu---------- Original Text ---------- Well, they keep trying... but actually they are poorly refinished Monty'sand other low grade rods on consignment. He's also got a few banty rods hewants $350-450 for... but, they would only sell to someone with absolutelyno knowledge and a big wallet... They've been sitting there for a year ortwo so I don't know if anybody's ever bitten on those junkers... He relabelsthem with his name on the rods... Remember, a seller can ASK any price...but the buyers determine the true value... Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods Remember, those "marks" help keep our favorite flyshops in business. Afew more folks with money to burn like that could really help the shopskeep margins down. They also boost the demand for cane rods. Maybe weneed to be encouraging the idea that if you want the absolute best, whenmoney is no object, then a $2,000 cane rod is the way to go. That willalmost certainly help drive up the market for those $600 to $1400 rodsthat most of the guys on this list are building. Montague? If so, please tell me how, I've got a couple I'd love totrade in for one decent rod. :-) -----Original Message-----From: Darrell A. Lee [SMTP:darrell@rockclimbing.org]Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:25 AM Cc: bob maulucci; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods RE: Silk lines for less - Supply and demand... apparently the demandoutstrips the supply (3 month waiting time) so a line maker would notneedor be willing to make them cheap, if they can sell them for $150- 200.Whysell them for $75 when people will pay $200? If people won't buy thematthat price, then the maker would have to lower the price, but untiltheir isan excess supply, the makers would not need to lower prices... ECON101 Side note... I was at Marriotts last week and a wealthy foreign buyer who knewNOTHINGabout cane rods or even flyfishing, walked into Marriotts and boughtthemost expensive T&T cane rod, hard rubber reel, lines and all thetrimmingsto turn him into a fly fisherman... from my inquiring ears, he'd neverflyfished before and was all too happy to plunk down about $3,000+ forhis toyswithout batting an eye. He wouldn't even look at the cheapo bamboorods(refinished grossly overpriced $500 Montague rods) or the graphiterods...he simply wanted the most expensive toys in the store! He'll probablyfishit once or twice but he'll get his money's worth by having a new toyto bragabout at the local watering hole, black tie charity ball or cocktailpartyto impress the other beemer boys... It was interesting watching the saleslady (an expert flytier andcaster)keep a straight face while loading up this mark... Darrell -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 1:56 PM Cc: bob maulucci; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods My thought was that if enough would order at least one silk line, oreven 2or 3 that would fit their needs, then combined with a commercialventure alarge enough order could be generated to make it feasible to make themagain! I'm thinking perhaps a firm that is respected, such as Golden Witch,were tobe interested, a constant supply of silk lines could be seen again,but at amuch more reasonable price. GMA----- Original Message -----From: "reed curry" Cc: "bob maulucci" ; Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 9:12 AMSubject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George,Through an intermediary, some of us enquired about getting oneof themachines. There was a lack of response.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk linesagain ? GMA from Canerods@aol.com Wed Jun 14 14:16:39 2000 e5EJGcG22724 Subject: Re: $500 Montagues In a message dated 6/14/00 12:03:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mcdowellc@lanecc.edu writes: Chris, These aren't 6' banty rods - some are single tip 9' rods wrapped in purple or other bright colors. At least the rods on the racks - not the ones under glass. Most are labeled at $400.00. Maker and model vary and some do haveNS ferrules. The varnish is a bit better than a "Bastard", but not much better. I undestand that the refinisher has sold over 100 of them! Don Burns from darrell@rockclimbing.org Wed Jun 14 15:19:25 2000 e5EKJOG24621 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: $500 Montagues Importance: Normal Well, I didn't mention the nylon wraps and aluminum hardware on the reelseats either... Darrell -----Original Message----- DNHayashida@aol.com Subject: Re: $500 Montagues Marriott's is close by my house, I go there often. The refinished cane rodsare very bad. Lumpy varnish, bad wraps, sets. But, they are right outsidethe new bamboo rod case, and those are going for $1800 to $3500. Maybetheygain value through osmosis.Darryl (not Darrell) from Canerods@aol.com Wed Jun 14 17:22:35 2000 e5EMMPG28526 Subject: Re: Heddon refinish questions John, Don't get any of the strippers near the metal bits. Use denatured alcohol or acetone (read cautions on the cans) to "strip" near the metal. Use 0000 steelwool to slowly remove the nasty brown varnish over the Heddonsignature. Don't go for perfection - leaving extra varnish vs removal of the writing, is best, IMHO. Try using 0000 steelwool on all the varnish before striping the rod. You might be able to smooth out the old varnish and then overcaot with a light coat of new varnish. Michael Sinclair wrote a decent book - his "Bamboo Rod RestorationHandbook" and there's a new edition of Stuart Kirkfield's "The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod" too. The former book is best if you plan on refinishing many rods and need wrap details, the later book if you just want the procedures. Both are excellent. Don Burns from Canerods@aol.com Wed Jun 14 17:26:14 2000 e5EMQDG28732 Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press In a message dated 6/14/00 1:20:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, timklein@uswest.net writes: Very good point. Time to "salt the mine" with a not-for-sale demo rods at some larger tackle shops? Don Burns from Canerods@aol.com Wed Jun 14 17:36:52 2000 e5EMapG29252 Subject: Re: Scarfing I'd just scarf a new piece onto the end of the reglued tip and be done with it. Reglue the tip BEFORE you strip it. Else you'll have a big problem getting the stripper out of the glue lines. Don Burns from Canerods@aol.com Wed Jun 14 17:40:24 2000 e5EMeOG29411 Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press The lack of market awareness is a good reason to see that TBFR gets up and running again! Or Mark, gather your feces in one location! (Get your $hit together!) Don Burns from wlwalter@bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 14 18:46:51 2000 e5ENkoG00856 Subject: 3 pc into 2 pc Hey, has anybody ever tried converting a 3 pc into a 2 pc? I have aUnion Hardware thats in bad shape (much of it delaminating) and I'mthinking of just taking it completely apart and with scarfs andretapering converting the 8 1/2' rod into a 2-pc 7-footer. Figure itwould be good practice for a number of things and I might get somethingfishable in the bargain. If anyone has tried this please e-mail me withsome of the problems you ran into. Thanks. Bill Walters from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Wed Jun 14 19:10:17 2000 e5F0AHG01314 17:14:32 PDT Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press That's true, but I wonder if the reason you don't see demo bamboo rods inthe fly shops (the ones I've visited) is because most (not all) bamboo rodmakers are reactionary. They make rods to order, and when the list gets longerthey speed up and when the list gets short they either slow down or they make consignment rods for bamboo rod dealers. You could put a few rods in a flyshop or for roughly the same fees you could send it to a bamboo roddealer who will likely sell it far quicker then a local flyshop. Volume is still the key ingredient. If some makers/companies could pump out a few hundred rods a year, or more, then we might start to see someshowing up as floor models in the fly shops which would generate knowledge and interest to the general flyfishing public and then demand would continue rising.....(assumption on my part). Pretty soon we might see a smaller scale Granger or Heddon type company with machinery and assembly linetechniques coming back into existence to some degree. Six or eight workers combining their efforts (Perhaps even part time in addition to another job to start with) to produce high volume and decent quality at desirable prices. Only some rodmakers would be interested in this course. Many are die hard hand planers and could never deal in high volume, and why should they? As long as the volume is low, the prices stay high and there isn't any need to make a few hundred rods a year. I'm just regurgitating what I've heard and what I've thought about, so noone take offense to any of my rambling please. Most of you know more than I do on this subject, but it's interesting so I'm throwing my thoughts in the mix. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu------------------Original text In a message dated 6/14/00 1:20:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, timklein@uswest.net writes: Very good point. Time to "salt the mine" with a not-for-sale demo rods at some larger tackle shops? Don Burns from yves@hwy97.net Wed Jun 14 19:28:50 2000 e5F0SoG01699 (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.2.0) with SMTP id ;Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:28:51 -0700 Subject: Re: Penta tip scarf repair! Thanks John. Fortunately I don't have to match the color. Just liked thecolor. Dave At 08:13 PM 6/13/00 -0600, channer wrote: David La Touche wrote: I recently purchased some Granger Green thread from Angler's Workshop-their color 161. They have both A and 3/0. Their web site iswww.anglersworkshop.com. This silk thread is from Japan. One minor problem Dave, it is not quite the same color, the original is noticably more gold than the new stuff. Darrell Lee sent me some of theoriginal stock he has and it is different.John from yves@hwy97.net Wed Jun 14 19:42:44 2000 e5F0ghG02001 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.2.0) with SMTP id ;Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:42:45 -0700 Canerods@aol.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: RE: Penta tip scarf repair! Darrell: Thanks for the info. Fortunately, I'm not using the thread for arestoration. You're right - it does look like olive drab. Dave At 08:45 AM 6/14/00 -0700, Darrell A. Lee wrote:That stuff Anglers workshop sells is called Granger Green, but I've triedthat stuff and it doesn't look anything like the original thread oncefinished... Finished, it looks like olive drab, not the bright/brilliantyellowish/green that it should look. I tried using 4 different colorpreservers, 3 different varnishes and nearly every combination of each andwasted about 5-10 hours trying to make that thread work withoutsuccess... In the end, I gave up, used that thread and sold the rod out of disgust for1/2 the value it would have sold for if I had found the correct thread...Just before shipping out the rod, I came across some vintage stock ofRice'ssilk and it is a perfect match to the original thread! I was SUPER BUMMED!!! My point, is do a test wrap for yourself with that silk before you wrap allthe wraps to check to see if it is satisfactory for you... Restorations cansometimes be very frustrating trying to match the thread... Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 11:21 PM Subject: Re: Penta tip scarf repair! I recently purchased some Granger Green thread from Angler's Workshop -their color 161. They have both A and 3/0. Their web site iswww.anglersworkshop.com. This silk thread is from Japan. At 06:56 PM 6/13/00 EDT, Canerods@aol.com wrote:All, I took in a penta rod from a fellow FF club member, the rod had belongedtoan old fishing buddy and was left to the club member in the friend'sestate.The rod wasn't in fishable shape - one tip was broken at the ferrule andtheother tip was delaminated above the ferrule. (about a 6" delamination)Plusthe rod had light mildew or other dark spots on the varnish. The clubmemberjust wanted it fixed up and said that it wouldn't be fished. I've cleaned the mildew off and it doesn't seem to be coming back. I fixed the delamination too. Well, I couldn't find a penta tip piece to scarf to the broken tip and so Iscarfed on an oversized piece of hex-rod tip. Then I filed and filed ....theresult isn't too bad! Dave LeClair made up a nice replacement ferrule for the tip and it'smountedtoo. Of course, the wrap main color is Granger Green - try finding that! DarrellLee to the rescue! Now I just need to find a size 3 or size 4 black English snake guide - onemore pain-in-the-butt item! So much for a simple rod restoration! Don Burns from darrell@rockclimbing.org Wed Jun 14 19:46:37 2000 e5F0kaG02185 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: Leonard 9.5' 3/2 Tournament parts rod Importance: Normal GADS! I just received 3 HL Leonard rods and in the ebay description itcasually mentioned that one of the rods had some damage to each of the rodsections... I emailed the seller for more info and his reply was, see ad... Just got the rods and that particular one looks like my cousin Bruce Lee(joke) gave it a kung fu chop and every section is broken nearly completelythru and the aluminum tip case was pinched closed and then straightened...JEEZ, I sure get tired of sellers that don't accurately describe thecondition... I get so ticked off at some of these sellers!!! End of rant... Anybody wanna buy some hardware for a 9.5' 3/2 Tournament Leonardrod??? I think I'll add a vintage rod salvage yard to my web site... Darrell Leewww.vfish.net from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Wed Jun 14 20:38:46 2000 e5F1cjG03225 SAA18762; Subject: Re: Leonard 9.5' 3/2 Tournament parts rod Auction rule #1 Check the testosterone at the door. If someone wants topayto much for an item you don't have to beat him. Ebay Rule #1 don't bid on anything that doesn't have a picture. Ebay Rule #2 save the pictures incase they switch rods. Ebay Rule # 3 There aren't any bargains to be had. See rule #1. Paul ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Leonard 9.5' 3/2 Tournament parts rod GADS! I just received 3 HL Leonard rods and in the ebay description itcasually mentioned that one of the rods had some damage to each of therodsections... I emailed the seller for more info and his reply was, seead... Just got the rods and that particular one looks like my cousin Bruce Lee(joke) gave it a kung fu chop and every section is broken nearlycompletelythru and the aluminum tip case was pinched closed and then straightened...JEEZ, I sure get tired of sellers that don't accurately describe thecondition... I get so ticked off at some of these sellers!!! End of rant... Anybody wanna buy some hardware for a 9.5' 3/2 Tournament Leonardrod??? I think I'll add a vintage rod salvage yard to my web site... Darrell Leewww.vfish.net from Canerods@aol.com Wed Jun 14 20:40:37 2000 e5F1eaG03362 Subject: Re: Leonard 9.5' 3/2 Tournament parts rod In a message dated 6/14/00 5:47:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, darrell@rockclimbing.org writes: Got any hubcaps for a 1951 Heddon? That would be a good idea - a "I need" and a "I have" list would be great. Don Burns from Canerods@aol.com Wed Jun 14 20:43:19 2000 e5F1hIG03518 Subject: Re: Penta tip scarf repair! In a message dated 6/14/00 5:43:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,yves@hwy97.net writes: Dave, "Real" Granger Green is a a yellowish green (lime green) and nothing else looks like it. Don Burns from Canerods@aol.com Wed Jun 14 20:48:19 2000 e5F1mIG03702 Subject: Re: Leonard 9.5' 3/2 Tournament parts rod rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 6/14/00 6:39:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pmgoodwin@earthlink.net writes: Paul, So true. Change Rule #2 to read "... that doesn't have a picture or the has a blurry picture." Rule #4 - Always review the seller's feedback rating before bidding too. Don Burns from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Jun 14 21:28:13 2000 e5F2SBG04298 Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:04:55 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) nobler@satx.rr.com, reed curry Subject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods Hi Darrell,call me a stupid romantic philanthropist if you like, but ifI can actually get to the stage where I can turn out a decent silk line,I'll happily sell them to people for enough to cover my costs with a littleleft over for my trouble. I'll never retire on the proceeds but I'll havehad a lot of fun and made some like minded people a little bit happier Ihope. I must rush off and straighten my halo now. Best regards Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: silk lines and $150 rods RE: Silk lines for less - Supply and demand... apparently the demandoutstrips the supply (3 month waiting time) so a line maker would not needor be willing to make them cheap, if they can sell them for $150-200. Whysell them for $75 when people will pay $200? If people won't buy them atthat price, then the maker would have to lower the price, but until their isan excess supply, the makers would not need to lower prices... ECON 101 Side note... I was at Marriotts last week and a wealthy foreign buyer who knew NOTHINGabout cane rods or even flyfishing, walked into Marriotts and bought themost expensive T&T cane rod, hard rubber reel, lines and all the trimmingsto turn him into a fly fisherman... from my inquiring ears, he'd never flyfished before and was all too happy to plunk down about $3,000+ for his toyswithout batting an eye. He wouldn't even look at the cheapo bamboo rods(refinished grossly overpriced $500 Montague rods) or the graphite rods...he simply wanted the most expensive toys in the store! He'll probably fishit once or twice but he'll get his money's worth by having a new toy to bragabout at the local watering hole, black tie charity ball or cocktail partyto impress the other beemer boys... It was interesting watching the saleslady (an expert flytier and caster)keep a straight face while loading up this mark... Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods My thought was that if enough would order at least one silk line, or even 2or 3 that would fit their needs, then combined with a commercial venture alarge enough order could be generated to make it feasible to make themagain! I'm thinking perhaps a firm that is respected, such as Golden Witch, were tobe interested, a constant supply of silk lines could be seen again, but at amuch more reasonable price. GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods George,Through an intermediary, some of us enquired about getting one of themachines. There was a lack of response.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ nobler wrote: I gotta' ask Reed, have you asked them about making silk lines again ? GMA from channer1@rmi.net Wed Jun 14 21:52:34 2000 e5F2qYG04817 Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: That's true, but I wonder if the reason you don't see demo bamboo rods inthefly shops (the ones I've visited) is because most (not all) bamboorodmakersare reactionary. They make rods to order, and when the list gets longertheyspeed up and when the list gets short they either slow down or they makeconsignment rods for bamboo rod dealers. You could put a few rods in aflyshop or for roughly the same fees you could send it to a bamboo roddealerwho will likely sell it far quicker then a local flyshop. Volume is still the key ingredient. If some makers/companies could pumpouta few hundred rods a year, or more, then we might start to see someshowingup as floor models in the fly shops which would generate knowledge andinterest to the general flyfishing public and then demand would continuerising.....(assumption on my part). Pretty soon we might see a smallerscaleGranger or Heddon type company with machinery and assembly linetechniquescoming back into existence to some degree. Six or eight workerscombiningtheir efforts (Perhaps even part time in addition to another job to startwith) to produce high volume and decent quality at desirable prices. Only some rodmakers would be interested in this course. Many are die hardhand planers and could never deal in high volume, and why should they? Aslong as the volume is low, the prices stay high and there isn't any need tomake a few hundred rods a year. I'm just regurgitating what I've heard and what I've thought about, so noonetake offense to any of my rambling please. Most of you know more than Idoon this subject, but it's interesting so I'm throwing my thoughts in the mix. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu Chris;I sell most of my rods thru the local flyshop, I sent one to a dealer afew years ago and while it was there, it just sat in his storeroomgeting dusty. I had him send it back to me after 3 months and no saleand put it in the rack in the shop in town. It took about a month tosell and in that month I got orders for 3 other rods from it. Sincethen, if I have a rod in the store, it will sell at least one other rod S.O.L., besides, the shop only gets 20% instead of the 30% most of thedealers get. In the last 2 seasons, I haven't had a rod sit in the shop wrap on the grip and tell the shop to let anyone who wants to try itout(properly supervised, of course), so i guess anything I have there isa demo rod. In my area, it seems that a rod that casts well and isfinished nicely will sell itself( call the paramedics, I think I justbroke my arm patting myself on the back) when people see that they don'thave to cough up the price of a new car for one. We really should allwrite John Gierach a thank-you note, I am convinced that if it weren't John from mstevens@ptdprolog.net Wed Jun 14 21:56:32 2000 e5F2uVG05005 (204.186.1.193) Subject: Re: silk lines and $150 rods I have scanned a picture of a special machine for braiding tapered flylines. Access to my server is out at the moment so if someone wants me tosend them a 240K scan for uploading elsewhere let me know. The picture is from a 1946 Gladding line catalog. I also have a scan of a 1938 Ashaway linesize chart with diagrams of the various tapers of silk fly lines. I will also scan some material from a Rainbow Lines booklet with a longcasting article by Marvin Hedge with diagrams of the Hedge tapers. Mike Michael StevensRR 1 Box 307C Effort PA 18330 610 681 5670 http://www.mikestevens.com http://www.OldTackle.com mstevens@ptdprolog.net Collector of Heddon Bamboo rodsJ.A. Coxe baitcasting reelsHeddon River Runt Spooks Maker of Fine Sights for Antique Single Shot TargetRifles from esavage@parkerduryee.com Wed Jun 14 22:12:11 2000 e5F3CAG05318 Subject: FW: Leonard 9.5' 3/2 Tournament parts rod Paul: Your auction bidding rules make sense and should probably be engraved ineach bidder's conscience. However, on one auction I broke at least two ofthose rules, as well as the additional valid rule (suggested by anothercontributor) to check out the seller's feedback (which I could not do inthis case since there was none), and still was totally satisfied. It was aVFS auction (where, based upon my experience, the integrity of sellers ishigher than on eBay or Yahoo, even though the percentage of auctionswithoutphotos seems much higher on VFS than on eBay or Yahoo) for a 7-1/2 foot,2-tip Hardy bamboo rod and new Hardy Bougle 3" reel, with a new 4 wt linethrown in, and the seller was all the way in Alaska. This was by far mylargest Internet auction purchase, and I was having second thoughts when inthe closing moments of the auction I upped the leading bid of $574 byanother $10. I won, and still had concerns until the package arrived. Theitems were every bit as good as described - even better; the rod was in nearmint condition and casts like a dream. I know that I very well may havelucked out, and I suspect that the only reason I won the auction at theprice I did was because there was only a description without any picture.Based upon what I have seen other Hardy bamboo rods in mediocre conditionsgo for at auction, I a convinced a got a very good deal (though certainlynot a steal - unless you compare it to the $500 Montagues that some of youhave been speaking of). I have also bought two other bamboo rods on eBay (one a Bristol and one ano- name 5'), both of which had photos. Although certain other shortcomingsof the rods were listed in the auction descriptions (such as a missingguide/eye or two and a mild set), conspicuous by its absence from thedescriptions was any reference to the substantial - on one of the twoBristol tips, almost complete - delamination which I discovered when therods arrived. And the sellers in each of those instances had good ratings,so even ratings and photos can't provide much security. Fortunately, Ididn't spend much money on either of those rods and now I have someprojects. In fact, it was those projects (as well as a couple of others)that led me to search the web for bamboo rod making/restoring sites, whichsearch led me to the Rodmakers site and this "chat room." Yes, I'm a realneophyte, and I'll be looking to all of you for quite a bit of help, once Ifinally get organized. For now I feel like I'm just eavesdropping andsoaking up little pieces of your collective wisdom - for which I thank youall. Ed Savage [esavage@parkerduryee.com] -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Leonard 9.5' 3/2 Tournament parts rod Auction rule #1 Check the testosterone at the door. If someone wants topayto much for an item you don't have to beat him. Ebay Rule #1 don't bid on anything that doesn't have a picture. Ebay Rule #2 save the pictures incase they switch rods. Ebay Rule # 3 There aren't any bargains to be had. See rule #1. Paul ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Leonard 9.5' 3/2 Tournament parts rod GADS! I just received 3 HL Leonard rods and in the ebay description itcasually mentioned that one of the rods had some damage to each of therodsections... I emailed the seller for more info and his reply was, seead... Just got the rods and that particular one looks like my cousin Bruce Lee(joke) gave it a kung fu chop and every section is broken nearlycompletelythru and the aluminum tip case was pinched closed and then straightened...JEEZ, I sure get tired of sellers that don't accurately describe thecondition... I get so ticked off at some of these sellers!!! End of rant... Anybody wanna buy some hardware for a 9.5' 3/2 Tournament Leonardrod??? I think I'll add a vintage rod salvage yard to my web site... Darrell Leewww.vfish.net from jojo@ipa.net Wed Jun 14 22:35:44 2000 e5F3ZhG05855 Subject: Re: Math quiz Tim, Yeah, never do anything the easy way. I mean, it is just too easy to takethe flat-to-flat measurement and multiply by 1.1547 to get the apex-to- apexmeasurement. All this trig stuff has reawakened my annoyance with allthingsmathematical. Said annoyance having been brought about by an acute Minorinthe subject. Martin-Darrell ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Math quiz BIG SNIPI think I used this line once before but... We're bamboo rodmakers. We don't do anything the easy way if we can helpit! (hmmm... sounds like I need to work that into a new sig line) ---Tim "I'm a bamboo rodmaker, and I don't do anything the easy way if I can helpit!" ----- Original Message -----From: Lee Freeman Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 11:16 PMSubject: Re: Math quiz Tim, I fail to see where the height of the triangle comes into the equationatall. Certainly the height, which is NOT a side, would have a slightlydifferent dimension. But as long as we deal with an equilateraltriangle,Imaintain my statement is correct. The width of the flat must be equaltothe length of the glued side. Double that dimension and you have thedistance from the apex to the opposite apex. Lee from timklein@uswest.net Wed Jun 14 22:57:23 2000 e5F3vNG06274 (63.225.127.109) Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press Pretty soon we might see a smaller scaleGranger or Heddon type company with machinery and assembly linetechniquescoming back into existence to some degree. Six or eight workerscombiningtheir efforts (Perhaps even part time in addition to another job to startwith) to produce high volume and decent quality at desirable prices. I think it's far more likely that someone would start a small rod shop withthe promise of high quality rods at reasonable prices, but instead, delivera mediocre (at best) rod that has a price tag at or near that of the lowerpriced high quality hand planed rods. (BASTARDS!) It seems to me that there isn't enough competition yet to justify reasonablypriced production rods. If you're going to go to the trouble of starting upa production scale bamboo rod shop, why would you price them on the lowend?Your only real competition would be the Orvis's, Winston's, etc.. Beat theirprices and stock the rods in shops and I believe you've got a market. It's not until there are a couple of these type operations (and anassociated market for bamboo), that someone else would need to use lowerpricing as a competitive tactic. Only some rodmakers would be interested in this course. Many are die hardhand planers and could never deal in high volume, and why should they? Aslong as the volume is low, the prices stay high and there isn't any needto make a few hundred rods a year. I agree. Do we really want bamboo to be as popular as graphite? I certainlydon't. I'm younger than some on the list, and I never fished when bamboo was thenorm. I'm proud of the fact that I didn't succumb to the "distance"mentality and that I went to the time and effort to investigate bamboo. Itwas a tough road and I don't feel like GIVING my hard fought discovery away.I believe that bamboo is superior, and that anyone who seriouslyinvestigates bamboo will eventually realize that fact. When they finallyreach that realization, they will pay a little more for a hand craftedbamboo rod because they know it's worth it. Assembly line plastic is cheap,craftsmanship is not. ---Tim "I'm a bamboo rodmaker, and I don't do anything the easy way if I can helpit!" from bh887@lafn.org Wed Jun 14 23:15:31 2000 e5F4FVG06613 forged)) (envelope- from bh887@lafn.org) Subject: Re: Leonard 9.5' 3/2 Tournament parts rod Darrell, If it was not accurately described, get your money back and/or make use ofthe remedies available to you on eBay. I too am disgusted with the baddescriptions some of these sellers try to get away with.Don't let them do it! BTW, the floss was terrific!Lee----- Original Message ----- Subject: Leonard 9.5' 3/2 Tournament parts rod GADS! I just received 3 HL Leonard rods and in the ebay description itcasually mentioned that one of the rods had some damage to each of therodsections... I emailed the seller for more info and his reply was, seead... Just got the rods and that particular one looks like my cousin Bruce Lee(joke) gave it a kung fu chop and every section is broken nearlycompletelythru and the aluminum tip case was pinched closed and then straightened...JEEZ, I sure get tired of sellers that don't accurately describe thecondition... I get so ticked off at some of these sellers!!! End of rant... Anybody wanna buy some hardware for a 9.5' 3/2 Tournament Leonardrod??? I think I'll add a vintage rod salvage yard to my web site... Darrell Leewww.vfish.net from timklein@uswest.net Wed Jun 14 23:29:54 2000 e5F4TrG06943 (63.225.127.109) Subject: Speaking of e-bay... WOW! There's a Dickerson 8014 listed that's up to $3550.00! http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350839952 That even beats an eerily mint condition Leonard I saw a couple of weeks ago(the seller described it as "time warp" condition). Nearly 16 hours to go for those of you with 4 or 5 g's burning a hole inyour pocket... ---Tim "I'm a bamboo rodmaker, and I don't do anything the easy way if I can helpit!" from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Jun 15 01:34:17 2000 e5F6YHG08494 23:38:37 PDT Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press I don't think Gehrke is a good example because as he said himself, he wasbrand new to bamboo rod making. His first efforts shouldn't be the basis forwhat's possible in volume production. If he were to keep at it over time,improve on the cosmetics, get the price up a little higher where it needs tobe, and keep a cool head, he could probably do great. He must want tosucceed, or else he is one strange bird having invested that much time andmoney into it. Give someone like A.J. Thramer a production facility and two or three fulltime skilled rodmakers and I bet things could get rolling. I'm encouraged by what John Channer said regarding his sells through a localflyshop. None of the fly shops I've visited in Oregon have more than a singlenew bamboo rod in stock, and three out of four of those were high end($2000+), behind glass, and not intended to actually be cast by anyone. Asthe owners said, they are there so that the typical customer can feelcomfortable spending only $500-$700 on a high end graphite. Also, I didn't mean to imply "cheap" when I said "desirable" price. If the rodswere readily available in shops and therefore generated interest andknowledge of the virtues of bamboo, then demand would increase even for$800-$900 production rods (in my opinion). I think the market for cheap bamboo rods is probably smaller then themarket for intermediate priced rods, once a majority of fly fishers learn thetruth about bamboo rods. That they don't break when bent, that they don'thave to cost $2000, and that slower can be better. I bet a poll would reveal that the majority of graphite fly fishers do not havea clue that a hexagon bamboo rod is comprised of six equilateral and taperedtriangles joined together. Just that little bit of knowledge will get them pastthe sticker shock in most cases. All that hot air....I could have made a rod instead. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press Pretty soon we might see a smaller scaleGranger or Heddon type company with machinery and assembly linetechniquescoming back into existence to some degree. Six or eight workerscombiningtheir efforts (Perhaps even part time in addition to another job to startwith) to produce high volume and decent quality at desirable prices. I think it's far more likely that someone would start a small rod shop withthe promise of high quality rods at reasonable prices, but instead, delivera mediocre (at best) rod that has a price tag at or near that of the lowerpriced high quality hand planed rods. (BASTARDS!) It seems to me that there isn't enough competition yet to justify reasonablypriced production rods. If you're going to go to the trouble of starting upa production scale bamboo rod shop, why would you price them on the lowend?Your only real competition would be the Orvis's, Winston's, etc.. Beat theirprices and stock the rods in shops and I believe you've got a market. It's not until there are a couple of these type operations (and anassociated market for bamboo), that someone else would need to use lowerpricing as a competitive tactic. Only some rodmakers would be interested in this course. Many are die hardhand planers and could never deal in high volume, and why should they? Aslong as the volume is low, the prices stay high and there isn't any needtomake a few hundred rods a year. I agree. Do we really want bamboo to be as popular as graphite? I certainlydon't. I'm younger than some on the list, and I never fished when bamboo was thenorm. I'm proud of the fact that I didn't succumb to the "distance"mentality and that I went to the time and effort to investigate bamboo. Itwas a tough road and I don't feel like GIVING my hard fought discovery away.I believe that bamboo is superior, and that anyone who seriouslyinvestigates bamboo will eventually realize that fact. When they finallyreach that realization, they will pay a little more for a hand craftedbamboo rod because they know it's worth it. Assembly line plastic is cheap,craftsmanship is not. ---Tim "I'm a bamboo rodmaker, and I don't do anything the easy way if I can helpit!" from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Jun 15 01:40:26 2000 e5F6ePG08648 23:44:45 PDT Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press One more thing. Are the Orvis and Winston rods really production rodsanymore? How many do they sell in a year? My feeling is that if they aremaking 75 rods a year then they are no more production oriented thenseveral independent makers out there. Let's see a company or cooperativedo 300-500 rods per year. That will get them on the shelves of some of theflyshops and generate education and demand for bamboo. Chris - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press Pretty soon we might see a smaller scaleGranger or Heddon type company with machinery and assembly linetechniquescoming back into existence to some degree. Six or eight workerscombiningtheir efforts (Perhaps even part time in addition to another job to startwith) to produce high volume and decent quality at desirable prices. I think it's far more likely that someone would start a small rod shop withthe promise of high quality rods at reasonable prices, but instead, delivera mediocre (at best) rod that has a price tag at or near that of the lowerpriced high quality hand planed rods. (BASTARDS!) It seems to me that there isn't enough competition yet to justify reasonablypriced production rods. If you're going to go to the trouble of starting upa production scale bamboo rod shop, why would you price them on the lowend?Your only real competition would be the Orvis's, Winston's, etc.. Beat theirprices and stock the rods in shops and I believe you've got a market. It's not until there are a couple of these type operations (and anassociated market for bamboo), that someone else would need to use lowerpricing as a competitive tactic. Only some rodmakers would be interested in this course. Many are die hardhand planers and could never deal in high volume, and why should they? Aslong as the volume is low, the prices stay high and there isn't any needtomake a few hundred rods a year. I agree. Do we really want bamboo to be as popular as graphite? I certainlydon't. I'm younger than some on the list, and I never fished when bamboo was thenorm. I'm proud of the fact that I didn't succumb to the "distance"mentality and that I went to the time and effort to investigate bamboo. Itwas a tough road and I don't feel like GIVING my hard fought discovery away.I believe that bamboo is superior, and that anyone who seriouslyinvestigates bamboo will eventually realize that fact. When they finallyreach that realization, they will pay a little more for a hand craftedbamboo rod because they know it's worth it. Assembly line plastic is cheap,craftsmanship is not. ---Tim "I'm a bamboo rodmaker, and I don't do anything the easy way if I can helpit!" from horsesho@ptd.net Thu Jun 15 05:25:58 2000 e5FAPvG10773 (204.186.33.12) Organization: ProLog Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press I know Thomas & Thomas has a production of about 60 (organic ones)rodsa year and I would guess Winston to be about the same. Orvis may be evenlower due to the price of used ones in ex. cond. Not really productionnumbers!. Marty One more thing. Are the Orvis and Winston rods really production rodsanymore? How many do they sell in a year? My feeling is that if they aremaking 75 rods a year then they are no more production oriented thenseveral independent makers out there. Let's see a company or cooperativedo 300-500 rods per year. That will get them on the shelves of some of theflyshops and generate education and demand for bamboo. Chris - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - - -From: "Tim Klein" Subject: Re: Bamboo and the pressDate: 06/14/00 20:45 Pretty soon we might see a smaller scaleGranger or Heddon type company with machinery and assembly linetechniquescoming back into existence to some degree. Six or eight workerscombiningtheir efforts (Perhaps even part time in addition to another job to startwith) to produce high volume and decent quality at desirable prices. I think it's far more likely that someone would start a small rod shop withthe promise of high quality rods at reasonable prices, but instead, delivera mediocre (at best) rod that has a price tag at or near that of the lowerpriced high quality hand planed rods. (BASTARDS!) It seems to me that there isn't enough competition yet to justifyreasonablypriced production rods. If you're going to go to the trouble of starting upa production scale bamboo rod shop, why would you price them on the lowend?Your only real competition would be the Orvis's, Winston's, etc.. Beat theirprices and stock the rods in shops and I believe you've got a market. It's not until there are a couple of these type operations (and anassociated market for bamboo), that someone else would need to uselowerpricing as a competitive tactic. Only some rodmakers would be interested in this course. Many are diehardhand planers and could never deal in high volume, and why should they? Aslong as the volume is low, the prices stay high and there isn't any needtomake a few hundred rods a year. I agree. Do we really want bamboo to be as popular as graphite? I certainlydon't. I'm younger than some on the list, and I never fished when bamboo was thenorm. I'm proud of the fact that I didn't succumb to the "distance"mentality and that I went to the time and effort to investigate bamboo. Itwas a tough road and I don't feel like GIVING my hard fought discoveryaway.I believe that bamboo is superior, and that anyone who seriouslyinvestigates bamboo will eventually realize that fact. When they finallyreach that realization, they will pay a little more for a hand craftedbamboo rod because they know it's worth it. Assembly line plastic is cheap,craftsmanship is not. ---Tim "I'm a bamboo rodmaker, and I don't do anything the easy way if I can helpit!" from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Thu Jun 15 08:11:31 2000 e5FDBUG12830 0400 Subject: RE: Bamboo and the press Has anybody tried peddling cane rods at craft fairs? I don't meanthe kind of craft fair where the Elderly Ladies Auxiliary sells itscrocheted doilies - I mean juried fairs where serious craftspeople sell highend stuff. Cabinet- makers, potters, weavers, jewelers, leatherworkers, etc.Why not rodmakers? -----Original Message-----From: Canerods@aol.com [SMTP:Canerods@aol.com]Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press In a message dated 6/14/00 1:20:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, timklein@uswest.net writes: verysmall niche market. If they become available to cast, the market wouldgrowbut would still be limited by a lack of immediate availability. The webshows a lot of potential for helping kill the price myths, but I stillbelieve most people want to touch and try a rod before they buy.Rodmakersneed to work their own deals with their local flyshops (I'm sure manyalready do), if they really want to see gains in bamboo rod use. >> Very good point. Time to "salt the mine" with a not-for-sale demo rods at some largertackle shops? Don Burns from mstevens@ptdprolog.net Thu Jun 15 09:11:09 2000 e5FEB8G14577 (204.186.1.197) Subject: silk line info Hi, the line size chart here are the URLs: http://mikestevens.com/tackle/gladdingline.jpg http://mikestevens.com/tackle/ashawaylines.jpg If you want to use these pics on a website I would appreciate credit and alink to http://www.OldTackle.com Mike Michael StevensRR 1 Box 307C Effort PA 18330 610 681 5670 http://www.mikestevens.com http://www.OldTackle.com mstevens@ptdprolog.net Heddon catalogs on CD-ROM Collector of Heddon Bamboo rodsJ.A. Coxe baitcasting reelsHeddon River Runt Spooks Maker of Fine Sights for Antique Single Shot TargetRifles from earsdws@duke.edu Thu Jun 15 10:41:07 2000 e5FFf6G22908 LAA20755; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Duke University Medical Center Subject: simple question. Where would you all recommend as a source for 6/0 silk for wrappingguides and ferules?Thanks, dws. from jmpio@nhbm.com Thu Jun 15 10:43:12 2000 e5FFhCG23136 Subject: RE: simple question. I just ordered silk from Goldenwitch, some Pearsall's Naples. Servicewas fast, easy, and the price was reasonable. I'll order from themagain. -----Original Message-----From: David W. Smith, Ph.D. [SMTP:earsdws@duke.edu]Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 9:46 AM Subject: simple question. Where would you all recommend as a source for 6/0 silk for wrappingguides and ferules?Thanks, dws. from earsdws@duke.edu Thu Jun 15 10:46:54 2000 e5FFkrG23370 LAA21082; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Duke University Medical Center Subject: Re: simple question. One more question, some talk of 6/0 for best results. Other opinions?dws. "David W. Smith, Ph.D." wrote: Where would you all recommend as a source for 6/0 silk for wrappingguides and ferules?Thanks, dws. from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Jun 15 10:51:22 2000 e5FFpLG23635 Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:51:17 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: simple question. David,If you are in the U.S. I would recommend ordering Pearsalls from Russ at Golden Witch, he is very good to deal with! Or if you likecontact me off list and I can recommend another good source in Canadathat might save you some cash with the exchange rate and allShawn Pineo. "David W. Smith, Ph.D." wrote: Where would you all recommend as a source for 6/0 silk for wrappingguides and ferules?Thanks, dws. from earsdws@duke.edu Thu Jun 15 11:08:54 2000 e5FG8rG24399 MAA22402; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Duke University Medical Center Subject: and yet another question... What is the unit of measurement for tip tops? i.e., what are 3.5, 4.0,4.5, etc referring to (mm?)?Thanks, dws. from caneman@clnk.com Thu Jun 15 11:19:08 2000 e5FGJ8G24830 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:14:32 -0500 Subject: Re: simple question. Goldenwitch... Russ sells Pearsall's 6/0 silk in some classic colors. I useit and love it. Bob-----Original Message----- Subject: simple question. Where would you all recommend as a source for 6/0 silk for wrappingguides and ferules?Thanks, dws. from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Jun 15 11:20:08 2000 e5FGK7G24930 Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:20:03 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: and yet another question... David,if you measure the thickness of your tip at the end and multiplythat # by 64.Take that size and round to the nearest half or whole number. I prefer toround up, others might go down.That is the number you must order e.g.. 4.0,4.5 ..... Shawn Pineo "David W. Smith, Ph.D." wrote: What is the unit of measurement for tip tops? i.e., what are 3.5, 4.0,4.5, etc referring to (mm?)?Thanks, dws. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jun 15 11:24:39 2000 e5FGOcG25219 Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:24:21 -0700 Organization: First Baptist Church Subject: Re: and yet another question... "David W. Smith, Ph.D." wrote: What is the unit of measurement for tip tops? i.e., what are 3.5, 4.0,4.5, etc referring to (mm?)?Thanks, dws. David,The unit of measurement is 64ths of an inch. An easy way to go is buyone of the little plastic gauges from Cabela's or AnglersWorkshop.Otherwise, measure with your calipers and convert to 64ths for aroughestimate. Harry --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from rmoon@ida.net Thu Jun 15 11:58:36 2000 e5FGwYG26376 Subject: measure After 30 years of rodmaking, I finally bought a dial caliper. I havealways used a micrometer. After having tried the caliper, I find that Istill prefer my mic. The caliper seems ok for large and roughapproximations, but I seriously question its accuracy. That is if I amusing it correctly, and I may not be. I seem to see that the majorityare using calipers. Can anyone convince me they are a better instrument Ralph from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Thu Jun 15 12:36:15 2000 e5FHaDG27641 Subject: Re: measure I have always used caliper, both dial- and digital calipers. I also have amicrometer,but never used it. Do You use it with the flat anvil, or have You made onewith 60*grove? regardsdanny Ralph W Moon wrote: After 30 years of rodmaking, I finally bought a dial caliper. I havealways used a micrometer. After having tried the caliper, I find that Istill prefer my mic. The caliper seems ok for large and roughapproximations, but I seriously question its accuracy. That is if I amusing it correctly, and I may not be. I seem to see that the majorityare using calipers. Can anyone convince me they are a better instrument Ralph from Oozakgpt@aol.com Thu Jun 15 13:40:27 2000 e5FIeQG00497 Subject: Sick to my stomach Just stopped in at my local metal fabrication shop for some brackets for my binding machine.Salesman was surprised that I was building bamboo rods.Tells me that he just threw away 4 rod's he bought in the 40-50's while cleaning his shed.They were in original tubes and cloth's,as well as good shape.When asked why he threw them away he said,"I thought they were worthless."Just goes to show how ignorant the public is about our craft and I wonder whatwas lost forever.Anybody feel like picking through some trash?? Greg T. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jun 15 13:45:06 2000 e5FIj5G00776 Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:45:02 -0700 Organization: First Baptist Church Subject: Re: Sick to my stomach Oozakgpt@aol.com wrote: Just stopped in at my local metal fabrication shop for some brackets formybinding machine.Salesman was surprised that I was building bamboorods.Tellsme that he just threw away 4 rod's he bought in the 40- 50's while cleaninghis shed.They were in original tubes and cloth's,as well as good shape.Whenasked why he threw them away he said,"I thought they wereworthless."Justgoes to show how ignorant the public is about our craft and I wonder whatwaslost forever.Anybody feel like picking through some trash?? Greg T. Greg,How long did it take you to get to the local "sanitary landfill" to look Harry Boyd --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from destinycon@mindspring.com Thu Jun 15 13:57:03 2000 e5FIv3G01181 Subject: Re: measure At 10:58 AM 6/15/00 -0600, Ralph W Moon wrote:After 30 years of rodmaking, I finally bought a dial caliper. I havealways used a micrometer. After having tried the caliper, I find that Istill prefer my mic. The caliper seems ok for large and roughapproximations, but I seriously question its accuracy. That is if I amusing it correctly, and I may not be. I seem to see that the majorityare using calipers. Can anyone convince me they are a better instrument Ralph Ralph,No, you are correct, they are not better for rod making or any otherprecision measuring. Calipers are not as accurate, if you want a correctmeasurement with repeatablity a micrometer is the only answer. Micrometersmeasure to a tenth, my digital Brown and Sharpe caliper only measures to ahalf thou. with a + or - half thou. repeatablity factor, not to mentionuser error, and in my case it's much greater with a caliper than amicrometer. That means you can be off more than a .001" and think you'redead nuts. Plus a micrometer can take much more use/abuse than a caliperand stay calibrated. It's only my opionion, after quite a few years ofusing both, but I think calipers are just the lazy-way-out. Best regards,Gary H. from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Thu Jun 15 15:08:27 2000 e5FK8PG03983 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id IAA26851; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:08:12 +1200 Subject: Re: measure Ralph, I have little doubt at all that the most usefull tool I have bought/made inrodmaking is the digital readout caliper I have. I do have a dial caliperand like you I consider them to be rather crude but the digital readoutcaliper is really great to use. They are worth the extra cost . Mine is acheaper Asian model but appears to be very accurate, and certainly moreaccurate then my ability to plane precisely . regards Ian Kearney At 10:58 AM 15/06/00 -0600, Ralph W Moon wrote:After 30 years of rodmaking, I finally bought a dial caliper. I havealways used a micrometer. After having tried the caliper, I find that Istill prefer my mic. The caliper seems ok for large and roughapproximations, but I seriously question its accuracy. That is if I amusing it correctly, and I may not be. I seem to see that the majorityare using calipers. Can anyone convince me they are a better instrument Ralph from Canerods@aol.com Thu Jun 15 15:19:27 2000 e5FKJRG04528 Subject: Ebay Rules ... was Re: Leonard 9.5' 3/2 Tournament parts rod The UPS man was just here trying to deliever an eBay rod - or the empty shipping container that supposedly once contained an 8'6" Granger Premier. This rod was bid on and won from a seller that had "lost" an 8'6" Heddon #20 that I had won. The fellow told me that he lost several rods in the past few weeks - all UPS shipped. I don't much care, but either he's the worst packer or the Lansing UPS guys are all fishing cane rods. Don Burns from truckin@deltech.net Thu Jun 15 15:51:41 2000 e5FKpeG05931 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-55121U2500L250S0V35)with ESMTP id net for ;Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:51:41 -0500 Subject: ebay Always intersting to read the ebay horror stories.. however good thingsdo happen. Just this morning I took delivery of a Horrocks-IbbottsonGovernor and it was much finer than described by the seller . I took itout to the little pond bhind thye house and susprise it looks a fineline, straight and true ... this from a rod that has a practicallyfactory fresh appearance about it Besies tthat the cane is still suppleand lll Limber. ps... i got it for a low bid off ebay. from tfinger@services.state.mo.us Thu Jun 15 16:13:18 2000 e5FLDIG06760 Comments: Authenticated sender is Organization: Missouri House of Representatives Subject: Qualities of Bamboo The recent discussion of advertising, availability of demo rods, the qualities of bamboo, etc., prompts me to describe the following experience. I think it relates to that discussion in some ways... Last week, after suffering a long period of guilt over not being able to take my 12-year old son fishing enough, I took a day off from work to spend with him on a local warmwater stream. I selected the stream gravel bars with lots of backcast room. Most of his fishing experience had been with a spinning rod, although he had caught a few fish on flies and had put some time in lawn casting an old (and quite nice, actually) Cortland fiberglass rod. After he had caught a couple dozen fish on his spinning rod, I turned him loose with one of my bamboo rods. After a few gentle reminders to slow down and wait on the backcast, I was amazed to watch him develop a feel for the timing of the rod. Within a few minutes he was making accurate 40' casts, catching fish, and having a blast (so was I, watching), and I honestly believe that a lot of it had to do with the sensitivity of bamboo. I could literally watch his hand sense the rod loading and react accordingly, and I don't really think that can be as easily done with the currently popularhigh-line-speed-staccato-whiplash-graphite- rambo-rod casting style. Now of course, I have an exceptional son :-))), but, that aside, the experience really brought home to me the exceptional nature of cane as a rodbuilding material. For those wishing to market bamboo, figuring out a way to package what I witnessed that day will do it. I should also add that the rod in question was one of my bass rods, a 40-year old, 8', 7 wt., balanced with a Hardy St. Aidan, and my 12-year old didn't think it was the least bit heavy... Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us from yves@hwy97.net Thu Jun 15 16:25:10 2000 e5FLP9G07170 (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.2.0) with SMTP id ;Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:25:11 -0700 Subject: RE: Bamboo and the press we could wear knee breeches and aprons! At 09:15 AM 6/15/00 -0400, Seth Steinzor wrote:Has anybody tried peddling cane rods at craft fairs? I don't meanthe kind of craft fair where the Elderly Ladies Auxiliary sells itscrocheted doilies - I mean juried fairs where serious craftspeople sell highend stuff. Cabinet-makers, potters, weavers, jewelers, leatherworkers,etc.Why not rodmakers? -----Original Message-----From: Canerods@aol.com [SMTP:Canerods@aol.com]Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press In a message dated 6/14/00 1:20:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, timklein@uswest.net writes: verysmall niche market. If they become available to cast, the market wouldgrowbut would still be limited by a lack of immediate availability. The webshows a lot of potential for helping kill the price myths, but I stillbelieve most people want to touch and try a rod before they buy.Rodmakersneed to work their own deals with their local flyshops (I'm sure manyalready do), if they really want to see gains in bamboo rod use. >> Very good point. Time to "salt the mine" with a not-for-sale demo rods at some largertackle shops? Don Burns from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Jun 15 16:59:22 2000 e5FLxLG08321 Subject: Inexpensive ferrules List,Quite awhile back we had a discussion about inexpensive ferrules and whereto buy them. Can anyone on the list remember where it was. I am putting together a couple of Banty's and don't want to use Super Z's or anything like that. Bret from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Jun 15 17:06:44 2000 e5FM6hG08632 Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:06:39 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Inexpensive ferrules Bret,Tony Young's ferrules are nice and very inexpensive, especially for youAmericans. THe American/ Australian exchange rate is as good as theAmerican/Canadian.Shawn Pineo Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: List,Quite awhile back we had a discussion about inexpensive ferrules and wheretobuy them. Can anyone on the list remember where it was. I am puttingtogether a couple of Banty's and don't want to use Super Z's or anythinglikethat.Bret from alec@antiquarianbooks.net Thu Jun 15 17:11:01 2000 e5FMB1G08949 helo=stans.tiac.net) Subject: Best Bass rod taper? Hey Folks, I would appreciate any opinions on bass rod tapers - Particularly 7/8weights. Do you have a favorite? What would you suggest? Thanks in advance! Alec Alec Stansell, Antiquarian Books16 Howland LaneWellfleet Massachusetts 02667USAwww.antiquarianbooks.netemail:alec@antiquarianbooks.netA member of Massachusetts and Rhode Island Antiquarian BooksellersAssociation from channer1@rmi.net Thu Jun 15 17:19:27 2000 e5FMJQG09467 Subject: Re: simple question. "David W. Smith, Ph.D." wrote: One more question, some talk of 6/0 for best results. Other opinions?dws. "David W. Smith, Ph.D." wrote: Where would you all recommend as a source for 6/0 silk for wrappingguides and ferules?Thanks, dws.David;I tried Gossamer, and didn't get along with it at all. I have muchbetter results with 3/0(size 100).John from channer1@rmi.net Thu Jun 15 17:27:08 2000 e5FMR7G09801 Subject: Re: Best Bass rod taper? Alec Stansell wrote: Hey Folks,I would appreciate any opinions on bass rod tapers - Particularly 7/8weights. Do you have a favorite? What would you suggest? Thanks in advance! AlecAlec;There are a couple of Heddon 2 1/2F tapers in Frank Stetzer's WebInterface to Hexrod Taper Archive, they are fine 7 wt. bass rodsJohn Alec Stansell, Antiquarian Books16 Howland LaneWellfleet Massachusetts 02667USAwww.antiquarianbooks.netemail:alec@antiquarianbooks.netA member of Massachusetts and Rhode Island Antiquarian BooksellersAssociation from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 15 17:47:24 2000 e5FMlOG10439 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP +0000 Subject: Re: simple question. John, et al., Try the Naples. It's much easier to work with and looks great whenvarnished. Dennis channer wrote: "David W. Smith, Ph.D." wrote: One more question, some talk of 6/0 for best results. Other opinions?dws. "David W. Smith, Ph.D." wrote: Where would you all recommend as a source for 6/0 silk for wrappingguides and ferules?Thanks, dws.David;I tried Gossamer, and didn't get along with it at all. I have muchbetter results with 3/0(size 100).John from cmj@post11.tele.dk Thu Jun 15 18:04:48 2000 e5FN4lG10968 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Tony Youngs Website e5FN4mG10969 I seem to be unable to find Tony Young's website.Can anyone help? Tony, are You there? regards, Carsten Jorgensen from stpete@netten.net Thu Jun 15 18:19:09 2000 e5FNJ8G11260 Subject: Slippery sliding with DynaGlide! While ordering some green rouge for my Smithwick sharpener, I ordered acan of DynaGlide to try out. I remember John Zimny mentioning theproduct as something which might prevent rusting of forms without usingoil. DynaGlide is paraffin based. While planing, I recalled DarrylH.'s recommendation of using a carnuba waxed plane sole to really makethe work go easier. So I sprayed the sole of the plane along with thetip of the blade. WOW!!! It's amazing how much less effort there is toplaning! Anyone else use this product? The label states that there is notransfer of the paraffin from tool to wood. The one question which Isuppose will be answered soon is whether the DynaGlide treated plane andblade will interfere with adhesion of the bamboo strips (I use Epon).Wish me luck! Rick C. from lblove@cableone.net Thu Jun 15 18:23:01 2000 e5FNN0G11435 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.447.44);Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:22:59 -0700 Subject: Re: measure I second Gary's comments about a micrometer.Calipers get you close,close counts in tossing hand grenadesand playing horseshoes...NOT ROD MAKING... just my opinionBrad ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: measure At 10:58 AM 6/15/00 -0600, Ralph W Moon wrote:After 30 years of rodmaking, I finally bought a dial caliper. I havealways used a micrometer. After having tried the caliper, I find that Istill prefer my mic. The caliper seems ok for large and roughapproximations, but I seriously question its accuracy. That is if I amusing it correctly, and I may not be. I seem to see that the majorityare using calipers. Can anyone convince me they are a better instrument Ralph Ralph,No, you are correct, they are not better for rod making or any otherprecision measuring. Calipers are not as accurate, if you want a correctmeasurement with repeatablity a micrometer is the only answer.Micrometersmeasure to a tenth, my digital Brown and Sharpe caliper only measures toahalf thou. with a + or - half thou. repeatablity factor, not to mentionuser error, and in my case it's much greater with a caliper than amicrometer. That means you can be off more than a .001" and thinkyou'redead nuts. Plus a micrometer can take much more use/abuse than acaliperand stay calibrated. It's only my opionion, after quite a few years ofusing both, but I think calipers are just the lazy-way-out.Best regards,Gary H. from lblove@cableone.net Thu Jun 15 18:29:23 2000 e5FNTMG11657 SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.447.44);Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:29:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Slippery sliding with DynaGlide! Rick,If you are worried about the wax, wipe the splines down with a goodclean solvent.Denatured alcohol would be my first choice.laterBrad ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Slippery sliding with DynaGlide! While ordering some green rouge for my Smithwick sharpener, I ordered acan of DynaGlide to try out. I remember John Zimny mentioning theproduct as something which might prevent rusting of forms without usingoil. DynaGlide is paraffin based. While planing, I recalled DarrylH.'s recommendation of using a carnuba waxed plane sole to really makethe work go easier. So I sprayed the sole of the plane along with thetip of the blade. WOW!!! It's amazing how much less effort there is toplaning! Anyone else use this product? The label states that there is notransfer of the paraffin from tool to wood. The one question which Isuppose will be answered soon is whether the DynaGlide treated plane andblade will interfere with adhesion of the bamboo strips (I use Epon).Wish me luck! Rick C. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jun 15 18:34:08 2000 e5FNY7G11833 Subject: Re: measure Bradley, Gary, Ralph....I agree, in theory. A micrometer is going to be consistently moreaccurate than a dial caliper.But we use dial indicator depth gauges to set home-made forms, and wethen take several thousandths of an inch of cane off with each pass of theplane. Our goal is to get strips that measure out equal to the nearestthousandth, not the nearest tenth. I do well to get within .001". Never wouldI think about trying to get to .0001".My digital caliper (cheapo bought from Lea Valley) measures accuratelyto within .0005". It is completely reliable. I've done some rather crudeexperiments to check it, and it is dead on. I can measure the same piece ofone-quarter inch drill stock 100 times, and still get the same measurement,100times It measures out to 0.2495, the exact same measurement I get withmyStarrett micrometer. That's plenty good enough for making rods.On the other hand, I've got a couple of sets of dial calipers. Youcan't even get them to return to the same zero consistently. Harry Bradley Love wrote: I second Gary's comments about a micrometer.Calipers get you close,close counts in tossing hand grenadesand playing horseshoes...NOT ROD MAKING... just my opinionBrad ----- Original Message -----From: Heidt Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 2:07 PMSubject: Re: measure At 10:58 AM 6/15/00 -0600, Ralph W Moon wrote:After 30 years of rodmaking, I finally bought a dial caliper. I havealways used a micrometer. After having tried the caliper, I find that Istill prefer my mic. The caliper seems ok for large and roughapproximations, but I seriously question its accuracy. That is if I amusing it correctly, and I may not be. I seem to see that the majorityare using calipers. Can anyone convince me they are a betterinstrument Ralph Ralph,No, you are correct, they are not better for rod making or any otherprecision measuring. Calipers are not as accurate, if you want a correctmeasurement with repeatablity a micrometer is the only answer.Micrometersmeasure to a tenth, my digital Brown and Sharpe caliper only measuresto ahalf thou. with a + or - half thou. repeatablity factor, not to mentionuser error, and in my case it's much greater with a caliper than amicrometer. That means you can be off more than a .001" and thinkyou'redead nuts. Plus a micrometer can take much more use/abuse than acaliperand stay calibrated. It's only my opionion, after quite a few years ofusing both, but I think calipers are just the lazy-way-out.Best regards,Gary H. --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Jun 15 18:35:21 2000 e5FNZKG11935 Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:35:16 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Tony Youngs Website Carsten,Tony's site http://members.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Shawn Pineo Carsten Jorgensen wrote: I seem to be unable to find Tony Young's website.Can anyone help? Tony, are You there? regards, Carsten Jorgensen from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Jun 15 18:37:15 2000 e5FNb9G12061 Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:37:04 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: measure I concur with Harry!Shawn Pineo Harry Boyd wrote: Bradley, Gary, Ralph....I agree, in theory. A micrometer is going to be consistently moreaccurate than a dial caliper.But we use dial indicator depth gauges to set home-made forms, andwethen take several thousandths of an inch of cane off with each pass of theplane. Our goal is to get strips that measure out equal to the nearestthousandth, not the nearest tenth. I do well to get within .001". NeverwouldI think about trying to get to .0001".My digital caliper (cheapo bought from Lea Valley) measuresaccuratelyto within .0005". It is completely reliable. I've done some rather crudeexperiments to check it, and it is dead on. I can measure the same pieceofone-quarter inch drill stock 100 times, and still get the samemeasurement, 100times It measures out to 0.2495, the exact same measurement I get withmyStarrett micrometer. That's plenty good enough for making rods.On the other hand, I've got a couple of sets of dial calipers. Youcan't even get them to return to the same zero consistently. Harry Bradley Love wrote: I second Gary's comments about a micrometer.Calipers get you close,close counts in tossing hand grenadesand playing horseshoes...NOT ROD MAKING... just my opinionBrad ----- Original Message -----From: Heidt Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 2:07 PMSubject: Re: measure At 10:58 AM 6/15/00 -0600, Ralph W Moon wrote:After 30 years of rodmaking, I finally bought a dial caliper. I havealways used a micrometer. After having tried the caliper, I find that Istill prefer my mic. The caliper seems ok for large and roughapproximations, but I seriously question its accuracy. That is if I amusing it correctly, and I may not be. I seem to see that the majorityare using calipers. Can anyone convince me they are a betterinstrument Ralph Ralph,No, you are correct, they are not better for rod making or any otherprecision measuring. Calipers are not as accurate, if you want acorrectmeasurement with repeatablity a micrometer is the only answer.Micrometersmeasure to a tenth, my digital Brown and Sharpe caliper only measuresto ahalf thou. with a + or - half thou. repeatablity factor, not to mentionuser error, and in my case it's much greater with a caliper than amicrometer. That means you can be off more than a .001" and thinkyou'redead nuts. Plus a micrometer can take much more use/abuse than acaliperand stay calibrated. It's only my opionion, after quite a few years ofusing both, but I think calipers are just the lazy-way-out.Best regards,Gary H. --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from bob@downandacross.com Thu Jun 15 18:39:16 2000 e5FNdFG12205 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: Re: Tony Youngs Website e5FNdGG12206 Carsten:I think Tony is away for a week or two. Maybe to Grayrock? Here's his web address:http://members.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.htmlBob At 01:05 AM 6/16/00 +0200, you wrote:I seem to be unable to find Tony Young's website.Can anyone help? Tony, are You there? regards, Carsten Jorgensen Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 15 18:51:42 2000 e5FNpfG12627 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP ;Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:51:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Slippery sliding with DynaGlide! Rick, I use Epon too. Please post your results. BTW... Where'd you get therouge and DG?? TIA, Dennis Rick Crenshaw wrote: While ordering some green rouge for my Smithwick sharpener, I ordered acan of DynaGlide to try out. I remember John Zimny mentioning theproduct as something which might prevent rusting of forms without usingoil. DynaGlide is paraffin based. While planing, I recalled DarrylH.'s recommendation of using a carnuba waxed plane sole to really makethe work go easier. So I sprayed the sole of the plane along with thetip of the blade. WOW!!! It's amazing how much less effort there is toplaning! Anyone else use this product? The label states that there is notransfer of the paraffin from tool to wood. The one question which Isuppose will be answered soon is whether the DynaGlide treated plane andblade will interfere with adhesion of the bamboo strips (I use Epon).Wish me luck! Rick C. from ajthramer@hotmail.com Thu Jun 15 18:53:38 2000 e5FNrbG12703 Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:53:34 PDT Subject: Re: Qualities of Bamboo From: "Terry Finger" Subject: Qualities of BambooDate: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:18:01 +0000 The recent discussion of advertising, availability of demo rods,the qualities of bamboo, etc., prompts me to describe the followingexperience. I think it relates to that discussion in some ways... Last week, after suffering a long period of guilt over not being ableto take my 12-year old son fishing enough, I took a day off from workto spend with him on a local warmwater stream. I selected the stream gravel bars with lots of backcast room. Most of his fishing experience had been with a spinning rod,although he had caught a few fish on flies and had put some time inlawn casting an old (and quite nice, actually) Cortland fiberglassrod. After he had caught a couple dozen fish on his spinning rod, Iturned him loose with one of my bamboo rods. After a few gentlereminders to slow down and wait on the backcast, I was amazed towatch him develop a feel for the timing of the rod. Within a fewminutes he was making accurate 40' casts, catching fish, and having ablast (so was I, watching), and I honestly believe that a lot of ithad to do with the sensitivity of bamboo. I could literally watchhis hand sense the rod loading and react accordingly, and I don'treally think that can be as easily done with the currently popularhigh-line-speed-staccato-whiplash-graphite- rambo-rod casting style.Now of course, I have an exceptional son :-))), but, that aside, theexperience really brought home to me the exceptional natureof cane as a rodbuilding material. For those wishing to marketbamboo, figuring out a way to package what I witnessed that daywill do it. I should also add that the rod in question was one of my bass rods, a40-year old, 8', 7 wt., balanced with a Hardy St. Aidan, and my12-year old didn't think it was the least bit heavy... Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us I taught a casting clinic for the local Boy Scout Jamboree two weeks ago, with both plastic and cane rods. It quickly was evident that the boys learned much faster on the cane rods.A.J.________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com from darrell@rockclimbing.org Thu Jun 15 18:55:46 2000 e5FNtjG12829 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: simple question. Importance: Normal My fav is the 00 silk thread which was used by most of the classic rodmakers... www.vfish.net/silkpage1.htmwww.vfish.net/silkchart.htm The gossamer 6/0 is very fine thread, takes longer to wrap and is moredifficult for me to use. Of the Pearsalls, I prefer the Naples (4/0). Darrell -----Original Message----- Ph.D. Subject: Re: simple question. One more question, some talk of 6/0 for best results. Other opinions?dws. "David W. Smith, Ph.D." wrote: Where would you all recommend as a source for 6/0 silk for wrappingguides and ferules?Thanks, dws. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Jun 15 19:11:55 2000 e5G0BtG13299 Subject: Re: Tony Youngs Website List,Tony is floating around the USA right now getting ready to go to Greyrock. He is probably in Chicago at a friends house. He is supposed to call me here in the next few days to make plans to get together.Bret from eharrison241@earthlink.net Thu Jun 15 19:15:15 2000 e5G0FFG13529 RAA06694 Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press That's a great idea! You should get a few rod makers together and rent abooth at the Sportsman's Expo. You could build a rod in the booth duringthe Expo. and sell raffle tickets for the rod you were making. I bet youcould draw some real crowds. Give them your business cards and takeorders a booth near the casting platform so if someone wanted to try a rod theycould. I rented a booth several years ago when they held the Expo. in theMosconi Center in San Francisco and it wasn't too expensive. If you splitthe cost between a few rodmakers it would be very reasonable. Don't forgetthe knee breeches and aprons. :-)Ernie Harrison ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Bamboo and the press we could wear knee breeches and aprons! At 09:15 AM 6/15/00 -0400, Seth Steinzor wrote:Has anybody tried peddling cane rods at craft fairs? I don't meanthe kind of craft fair where the Elderly Ladies Auxiliary sells itscrocheted doilies - I mean juried fairs where serious craftspeople sellhighend stuff. Cabinet-makers, potters, weavers, jewelers, leatherworkers,etc.Why not rodmakers? -----Original Message-----From: Canerods@aol.com [SMTP:Canerods@aol.com]Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press In a message dated 6/14/00 1:20:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,timklein@uswest.net writes: verysmall niche market. If they become available to cast, the market wouldgrowbut would still be limited by a lack of immediate availability. Thewebshows a lot of potential for helping kill the price myths, but I stillbelieve most people want to touch and try a rod before they buy.Rodmakersneed to work their own deals with their local flyshops (I'm sure manyalready do), if they really want to see gains in bamboo rod use. >> Very good point. Time to "salt the mine" with a not-for-sale demo rods at some largertackleshops? Don Burns from DNHayashida@aol.com Thu Jun 15 19:17:36 2000 e5G0HaG13687 Subject: Re: Slippery sliding with DynaGlide! I also wax all the sliding surfaces of my Morgan Handmill.Darryl I recalled DarrylH.'s recommendation of using a carnuba waxed plane sole to really makethe work go easier. from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 15 19:40:44 2000 e5G0ehG14087 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP ;Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:40:39 +0000 Subject: Re: measure Ralph, I think it is what you are used to. I bought a dial caliper when I firststarted making rods and used it for a couple of years. I find now that Iam reaching for my micometer more and more often. I am actually morecomfortable with it with the years of use in the tool room. Regards, Steve Ralph W Moon wrote: After 30 years of rodmaking, I finally bought a dial caliper. I havealways used a micrometer. After having tried the caliper, I find that Istill prefer my mic. The caliper seems ok for large and roughapproximations, but I seriously question its accuracy. That is if I amusing it correctly, and I may not be. I seem to see that the majorityare using calipers. Can anyone convince me they are a better instrument Ralph from RMargiotta@aol.com Thu Jun 15 19:44:09 2000 e5G0i8G14248 Subject: Fwd: simple question. boundary="part1_50.6c32cd2.267ad246_boundary" --part1_50.6c32cd2.267ad246_boundary --part1_50.6c32cd2.267ad246_boundary Full-name: RMargiotta Subject: Re: simple question. This issue of thread sizes is confusing. It's complicated because you can't get an accurate reading with a micrometer/caliper because silk is so compressible. But I've found the Naples silk to be comparable in size to 2/0 (based strictly on subjective use, not measurements). Also, the Gossamer I have seems to be slightly thinner than the YLI 3/0, but nowhere near a true 6/0. Has anyone else had this experience? So, my ranking, in descending diameters would be: 1. Size 50 or A (Belding Corticelli, which us marked "A" and Tire, Kinkame, and YLI, which are marked "50", all seem to be roughly the same size)2. Naples or 2/03. 3/0 (YLI the most widely available)4. Gossamer I have found the 3/0 and Gossamer hard to use for wraps on butt sections where gaps and overwraps are very likely. Naples is the best compromise mortals like me. --Rich --part1_50.6c32cd2.267ad246_boundary-- from truckin@deltech.net Thu Jun 15 19:46:49 2000 e5G0kmG14399 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-55121U2500L250S0V35)with ESMTP id net for ;Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:46:48 -0500 Subject: hand planes In a book on fine furniture woodwork I read from the library, one of theworkers tells how it pays to "true" a new hand plane before using it forwork. Take a flat sheet of glass, put a nice sized glop of grindingcompound on the surface, take the blade out of the plane and work thebottom of the plane in planing motions over the glop smeared surfaceusing light pressure. After a while you will see that the plane hashigh spots and dips that, through repeated smoothing can be trued. Hewrote that all planes have some uneveness in their planing surface. from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Jun 15 20:08:54 2000 e5G18rG15212 Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:08:49 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: hand planes James,you are very much on the money except I was always told to leavethe blade in, but not protruding.Shawn Pineo "Arledge, James" wrote: In a book on fine furniture woodwork I read from the library, one of theworkers tells how it pays to "true" a new hand plane before using it forwork. Take a flat sheet of glass, put a nice sized glop of grindingcompound on the surface, take the blade out of the plane and work thebottom of the plane in planing motions over the glop smeared surfaceusing light pressure. After a while you will see that the plane hashigh spots and dips that, through repeated smoothing can be trued. Hewrote that all planes have some uneveness in their planing surface. from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 15 20:28:55 2000 e5G1SsG15643 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP ;Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:28:51 +0000 Subject: Re: hand planes James, As Shawn says, your right on the money with truing your planes. I tookthe blade out of mine though, and instead of glop (is that a technicalterm?) I used 400, then 600, then 1000 grit wet/dry paper, soakedthoroughly with water. Then I hit them with the heat gun at the lowsetting to dry. You don't really need to go all the way out to 1000 grit. I'm justobsessive/compulsive (read as have no life). Dennis PS: I noticed that my Record 9 1/2 was flat and true right out of thepackage. Anyone else notice this??? Arledge, James wrote: In a book on fine furniture woodwork I read from the library, one of theworkers tells how it pays to "true" a new hand plane before using it forwork. Take a flat sheet of glass, put a nice sized glop of grindingcompound on the surface, take the blade out of the plane and work thebottom of the plane in planing motions over the glop smeared surfaceusing light pressure. After a while you will see that the plane hashigh spots and dips that, through repeated smoothing can be trued. Hewrote that all planes have some uneveness in their planing surface. from stpete@netten.net Thu Jun 15 21:46:57 2000 e5G2kvG17376 Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:39:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Slippery sliding with DynaGlide! I got them through Japan Woodworker ( http://www.japanwoodworker.com ). Theyare pricey, but their catalog has some of the finest woodworking tools in theworld and is a pleasure to peruse. You might find the items cheaperelsewhere. Also, Harry Boyd recommends that diamond paste works verywell,especially on the carbide tipped blades that he prefers. Rick C. Dennis Haftel wrote: Rick, I use Epon too. Please post your results. BTW... Where'd you get therouge and DG?? TIA, Dennis Rick Crenshaw wrote: While ordering some green rouge for my Smithwick sharpener, I orderedacan of DynaGlide to try out. I remember John Zimny mentioning theproduct as something which might prevent rusting of forms withoutusingoil. DynaGlide is paraffin based. While planing, I recalled DarrylH.'s recommendation of using a carnuba waxed plane sole to really makethe work go easier. So I sprayed the sole of the plane along with thetip of the blade. WOW!!! It's amazing how much less effort there is toplaning! Anyone else use this product? The label states that there is notransfer of the paraffin from tool to wood. The one question which Isuppose will be answered soon is whether the DynaGlide treated plane andblade will interfere with adhesion of the bamboo strips (I use Epon).Wish me luck! Rick C. from channer1@rmi.net Thu Jun 15 22:06:26 2000 e5G36PG17765 Subject: Re: simple question. Dennis Haftel wrote: John, et al., Try the Naples. It's much easier to work with and looks great whenvarnished. Dennis Dennis;Tried Naples,too. It seems wound real tight and I couldn't get it toflatten out very well. I like 3/0 from YLI the best of all the kinds Ihave used. Ya pays yer money and takes yer choiceJohn from channer1@rmi.net Thu Jun 15 22:17:44 2000 e5G3HhG18017 Subject: Re: Slippery sliding with DynaGlide! Rick Crenshaw wrote: I got them through Japan Woodworker ( http://www.japanwoodworker.com). Theyare pricey, but their catalog has some of the finest woodworking tools intheworld and is a pleasure to peruse. You might find the items cheaperelsewhere. Also, Harry Boyd recommends that diamond paste works verywell,especially on the carbide tipped blades that he prefers. Rick C. You guys might also want to check out the Imperial Micron sand paperthey sell. I have used it for years on Corian countertops and it's thenuts for bamboo rod making. I can clean the enamel off an entire rodwith one piece in a rubber sanding block and get all the glue off withanother. I use 60 micron for these jobs( i don't remember the gritequivalent, around 320 maybe) and polish with 30 micron(600?). A brassbristle brush will clean the paper when it loads up.John from Nodewrrior@aol.com Thu Jun 15 23:50:06 2000 e5G4o5G19600 Subject: Re: Best Bass rod taper? I've been using my Paul Young "Boat Rod" whose taper is in the StetzerHexrod archive. It's an 8' 2pc 6/7 wt. I like the shorter length over most 9' in the 6/7 range. She really picks up line well, has great line speed and is solid enouth to take a pretty good thrashing. And is just the thing for a float trip for which it is designed! Rob Hoffhines PS: there is also a PHY "Texas General" I submitted awhile back. It is actually an 8'6" 7/8, I think Mr Stetzer has corrected my goof from 8'. Interestingly, the exact rod I miked in a shop is up for auction on Ebay. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Jun 16 00:03:46 2000 e5G53jG19922 Subject: Re: and yet another question... Previously I wrote: Otherwise, measure with your calipers and convert to 64ths for a roughestimate. I wrote: Otherwise, measure with your calipers and convert to 64ths for a roughestimate. Friends,Two listers have called my hand on the statement above. I did not inany way mean this as a belittling statement. All kidding aside, I intended no digs at all, subtle or otherwise. What I meant was that the measurement atthe tip is flat to flat, and the largest measurement is obviously apex toapex. Also, I've found that tiptops aren't all created equal. I've got apile of #4's that are much more like #3.75's. When you get a number withyourcaliper, it gets you close enough to know where to start trying to find tipsthat fit correctly without rounding off the corners of the bamboo.Sorry if I said something that appears to be belittling. I promiseyou, it wasn't my intention. Harry --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Jun 16 00:29:12 2000 e5G5TBG20273 Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press Ernie,Another rodmaker and I did something very similar. We were each askedtodemonstrate rodmaking at a fairly localized flyfishing meeting and decided towork together. About 400 people attended. Before the show we workedtogetherand built a rod. During the show, we demo'ed various aspects of buildingrods.We sold chances on the rod we built together. Although it didn't do as well aswe hoped, we made a few dollars on it for one of our favorite causes.The other rodmaker involved doesn't sell his rods. I sold one at the show,and one a few weeks later. Also picked up two orders for rods as a result ofthat show. Doing demonstrations on how cane rods are made has helped mesellseveral rods in the last couple of years. I do it because I enjoy it, and itbrings new people into the craft. But the fringe benefit of selling a rod nowand then helps pay the expenses.Oh yeah, one more thing..... I wore Levi's and an Orvis shirt -- no kneebreeches or aprons. :-) Harry Ernie Harrison wrote: That's a great idea! You should get a few rod makers together and rent abooth at the Sportsman's Expo. Don't forget the knee breeches and aprons. :-)Ernie Harrison ----- Original Message -----From: "David La Touche" Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 2:24 PMSubject: RE: Bamboo and the press we could wear knee breeches and aprons! At 09:15 AM 6/15/00 -0400, Seth Steinzor wrote:Has anybody tried peddling cane rods at craft fairs? I don't meanthe kind of craft fair where the Elderly Ladies Auxiliary sells itscrocheted doilies - I mean juried fairs where serious craftspeople sellhighend stuff. Cabinet-makers, potters, weavers, jewelers,leatherworkers,etc.Why not rodmakers? -----Original Message-----From: Canerods@aol.com [SMTP:Canerods@aol.com]Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Bamboo and the press In a message dated 6/14/00 1:20:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,timklein@uswest.net writes: verysmall niche market. If they become available to cast, the marketwouldgrowbut would still be limited by a lack of immediate availability. Thewebshows a lot of potential for helping kill the price myths, but I stillbelieve most people want to touch and try a rod before they buy.Rodmakersneed to work their own deals with their local flyshops (I'm sure manyalready do), if they really want to see gains in bamboo rod use. >> Very good point. Time to "salt the mine" with a not-for-sale demo rods at some largertackleshops? Don Burns --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from timklein@uswest.net Fri Jun 16 01:36:29 2000 e5G6aSG21040 Subject: Re: and yet another question... Sorry Harry, I just thought you were being clever with Ralph's commentsabout calipers being less accurate than a micrometer. You comments coincided nicely with his and I just thought... (I guess that'll teach me to think) ---Tim "I'm a bamboo rodmaker, and I don't do anything the easy way if I can helpit!" ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: and yet another question... Previously I wrote: Otherwise, measure with your calipers and convert to 64ths for aroughestimate. I wrote: Otherwise, measure with your calipers and convert to 64ths for aroughestimate. Friends,Two listers have called my hand on the statement above. I did notinany way mean this as a belittling statement. All kidding aside, Iintended no digs at all, subtle or otherwise. What I meant was that the measurementatthe tip is flat to flat, and the largest measurement is obviously apex toapex. Also, I've found that tiptops aren't all created equal. I've got apile of #4's that are much more like #3.75's. When you get a number withyourcaliper, it gets you close enough to know where to start trying to findtipsthat fit correctly without rounding off the corners of the bamboo.Sorry if I said something that appears to be belittling. Ipromiseyou, it wasn't my intention. Harry --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from mep@mint.net Fri Jun 16 04:06:45 2000 e5G96iG22395 Fri, 16 Jun 2000 05:06:41 -0400 Subject: Re: hand planes This is true for most planes. The Lie-Nielson planes I use are machined flatand square at the factory for a woodworking process called shooting.Basically using the plane like a jointer. If you have these planes don'ttrue them, you can't do a better job by hand than they do at the factory. Ifyou buy their planes ask if the model is dead flat. If it's not they wouldprobably do it for you custom. I learned the hard way! They were kind enoughto repair my tuning. Mike "Arledge, James" wrote: In a book on fine furniture woodwork I read from the library, one of theworkers tells how it pays to "true" a new hand plane before using it forwork. Take a flat sheet of glass, put a nice sized glop of grindingcompound on the surface, take the blade out of the plane and work thebottom of the plane in planing motions over the glop smeared surfaceusing light pressure. After a while you will see that the plane hashigh spots and dips that, through repeated smoothing can be trued. Hewrote that all planes have some uneveness in their planing surface. from mep@mint.net Fri Jun 16 04:09:06 2000 e5G995G22509 Fri, 16 Jun 2000 05:09:04 -0400 Subject: Re: hand planes The blade holding device will bow out the sole. Yes it needs to be in if youdo this.If you lay a straight edge along the sole with the blade out afterit's trued it won't be flat. Learned this the hard way as well! Mike Dennis Haftel wrote: James, As Shawn says, your right on the money with truing your planes. I tookthe blade out of mine though, and instead of glop (is that a technicalterm?) I used 400, then 600, then 1000 grit wet/dry paper, soakedthoroughly with water. Then I hit them with the heat gun at the lowsetting to dry. You don't really need to go all the way out to 1000 grit. I'm justobsessive/compulsive (read as have no life). Dennis PS: I noticed that my Record 9 1/2 was flat and true right out of thepackage. Anyone else notice this??? Arledge, James wrote: In a book on fine furniture woodwork I read from the library, one of theworkers tells how it pays to "true" a new hand plane before using it forwork. Take a flat sheet of glass, put a nice sized glop of grindingcompound on the surface, take the blade out of the plane and work thebottom of the plane in planing motions over the glop smeared surfaceusing light pressure. After a while you will see that the plane hashigh spots and dips that, through repeated smoothing can be trued. Hewrote that all planes have some uneveness in their planing surface. from danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no Fri Jun 16 04:53:34 2000 e5G9rVG23000 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Qualities of Bamboo When I started fishing 3 years ago, I bought a 9` #5-6 graphite rod. Inever figured out the castingproperly. Actually I wanted to buy me a cane rod, but the salesman in theshop, said it was not forbeginners.......A couple of months later I got the opportunity to buy a 7` #3 Chapmancane rod. It has this verydeeeep british action. With this sensitive rod I start understand the artof casting. I could feel theline, and my casting begun to improve. I could lay out more line withthis little rod, than the longgraphite ones..... regardsdanny from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Fri Jun 16 05:27:34 2000 e5GARVG23519 with SMTP (MDaemon.v3.1.0.T) Subject: Re: Slippery sliding with DynaGlide! Where did you order the DynaGlide from? While ordering some green rouge for my Smithwick sharpener, I ordered acan of DynaGlide to try out. I remember John Zimny mentioning theproduct as something which might prevent rusting of forms without usingoil. DynaGlide is paraffin based. While planing, I recalled DarrylH.'s recommendation of using a carnuba waxed plane sole to really makethe work go easier. So I sprayed the sole of the plane along with thetip of the blade. WOW!!! It's amazing how much less effort there is toplaning! from petermckean@netspace.net.au Fri Jun 16 05:53:26 2000 e5GArOG23937 Subject: Silk lines Organization: vet boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00F1_01BFD7D4.269E2440" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01BFD7D4.269E2440 MikeHave been offline a few days, so have missed the drift of the silk line =stuff until tonight, and note with interest the thing about Cortland & =their manufacturing gear.I'm going to run this flag up to get the comments. Sort of lateral =thinking dept - Question1 - Does the manufacture of a silk line differ =in any substantial way from the knitting of a silk sock?Except the obvious, of course, size and length - and please, no jokes =about feet!If there is no essential difference, then possibly small knitting =factories might be interested in one-off orders in their slow periods. I =don't know about North America, but there are quite a few of these about =in Australia, including one at least in this town.Question 2 - if you can knit a tube (sock) on a domestic knitting =machine, can you knit a fly line?Anybody know about that?Peter ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01BFD7D4.269E2440 MikeHave been offline a few days, so have = drift of the silk line stuff until tonight, and note with interest the = about Cortland & their manufacturing gear.I'm going to run this flag up to get = Sort of lateral thinking dept - Question1 - Does the manufacture of a = differ in any substantial way from the knitting of a silk =sock?Except the obvious, of course, size and= and please, no jokes about feet!If there is no essential difference, = small knitting factories might be interested in one-off orders in their = periods. I don't know about North America, but there are quite a few of = about in Australia, including one at least in this town.Question 2 - if you can knit a tube = domestic knitting machine, can you knit a fly line?Anybody know aboutthat?Peter ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01BFD7D4.269E2440-- from stpete@netten.net Fri Jun 16 07:01:55 2000 e5GC1tG24881 Fri, 16 Jun 2000 06:54:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Silk lines Peter, I ran a quick search on braiding machines. There are severalmanufacturers of braiding machines and many contract braiders outthere. I did not inquire as to the expense of a machine or the price ofcustom braiding. I do know from my years of experience as a plantmanager in a custom sewing/fabricating plant, that few, if any would beinterested in small lot jobs unless the profit margin was extremelyhigh. The operator training time, the set up time, the QC training makesmall jobs unattractive to most facilities geared to orders of 100 grosslots. Also, getting a tapered line would require special attentionduring the braiding process, I would imagine - stopping to add threadsat stages and then eliminate threads later to get the taper. I'd think it would be better to build a braiding machine. Wish I couldfind an old patent. I tried to search for one without success. Anyonehave experience there? Can someone point me in the right direction? Rick C. petermckean wrote: MikeHave been offline a few days, so have missed the drift of the silkline stuff until tonight, and note with interest the thing aboutCortland & their manufacturing gear.I'm going to run this flag up toget the comments. Sort of lateral thinking dept - Question1 - Does themanufacture of a silk line differ in any substantial way from theknitting of a silk sock?Except the obvious, of course, size and length- and please, no jokes about feet!If there is no essential difference,then possibly small knitting factories might be interested in one- offorders in their slow periods. I don't know about North America, butthere are quite a few of these about in Australia, including one atleast in this town.Question 2 - if you can knit a tube (sock) on adomestic knitting machine, can you knit a fly line?Anybody know aboutthat?Peter from mrmac@tcimet.net Fri Jun 16 07:46:13 2000 e5GCkCG25811 FAA00710; "'RODMAKERS'" Subject: Re: Silk lines I also looked for old patents after seeing that the Gladding tapered linemachine in the pictures that Mike Stevens posted was stated to be patented.The problem is that the online USPTO database only has current patents, andI would expect the patent on the Gladding machine is certainly expired bynow. I have asked our "intellectual property wizard" here at work how onemight obtain copies for an expired patent, complicated by not knowing it'snumber, and have not heard back from him yet. When I have moreinformationon either the process or maybe even the patent number, I'll be glad to shareit. I did find some references in the rodmaker's list archive to braidingand braiding machines from several years ago, but they came up incidentallyin my www search and I've not yet gone back to do a full archive search fromthe old list discussions to see if any specifics might be uncovered there. Re: contract braiding, the best shot I thought of was that the round typeshoelaces seem to be of the same type or very similar braid, are round, andare small diameter. Perhaps one of the mfgs involved in them might bepursuaded to try a run at a level line in silk? I suspect, as you indicate,the economics would not be attractive at either end of the deal, though.Doesn't seem to me that knitting machines would produce the same effectthatbraiding does, but.....? Maybe Peter's on to something here! "down under"? ;-) best regards, mac Rick Crenshaw wrote: Peter, I ran a quick search on braiding machines. There are severalmanufacturers of braiding machines and many contract braiders outthere. I did not inquire as to the expense of a machine or the price ofcustom braiding. I do know from my years of experience as a plantmanager in a custom sewing/fabricating plant, that few, if any would beinterested in small lot jobs unless the profit margin was extremelyhigh. The operator training time, the set up time, the QC training makesmall jobs unattractive to most facilities geared to orders of 100 grosslots. Also, getting a tapered line would require special attentionduring the braiding process, I would imagine - stopping to add threadsat stages and then eliminate threads later to get the taper. I'd think it would be better to build a braiding machine. Wish I couldfind an old patent. I tried to search for one without success. Anyonehave experience there? Can someone point me in the right direction? Rick C. petermckean wrote: MikeHave been offline a few days, so have missed the drift of the silkline stuff until tonight, and note with interest the thing aboutCortland & their manufacturing gear.I'm going to run this flag up toget the comments. Sort of lateral thinking dept - Question1 - Does themanufacture of a silk line differ in any substantial way from theknitting of a silk sock?Except the obvious, of course, size and length- and please, no jokes about feet!If there is no essential difference,then possibly small knitting factories might be interested in one- offorders in their slow periods. I don't know about North America, butthere are quite a few of these about in Australia, including one atleast in this town.Question 2 - if you can knit a tube (sock) on adomestic knitting machine, can you knit a fly line?Anybody know aboutthat?Peter from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Fri Jun 16 08:35:10 2000 e5GDZAG27120 IAA03907 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:35:12 - (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id IAA22328 for ; Subject: Re: Silk lines I think this was mentioned once in the discussion, but one barrierto people trying silk lines is the (perceived?) high maintenance.What about braiding lines out of some syntethic rather than silk?There are zillions of manmade fibers and something must be suitable. I remember reading how Geirach gave up on silk lines after the crickets ate it during a streamside siesta. Thats the kind ofworry that keeps me away from silk. I don't need any more high maintenance stuff.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from Canerods@aol.com Fri Jun 16 09:07:17 2000 e5GE7GG28585 Subject: Re: and yet another question... In a message dated 6/15/00 10:04:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, fbcwin@3g.quik.com writes: Ah, Harry we know what you "really" meant. Just joking. I agree, you can sometimes go through a dozen tiptops (same size) before finding one thatfits properly. Don Burns from bhoy@inmind.com Fri Jun 16 09:13:48 2000 e5GEDlG29228 Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:55:16 -0400 Subject: Re: measure I have several problems with my digital calipers. I agree that you can get consistent results measuring rod stock, but when your are measiuiring triangles, a lot of variables creep in. Even a slight angle to the anvils will throw the readings off. The anvils of the micrometer hold the bamboo more securely IMO and there is more surface area to hold the bamboosquare. I've found that knowing what pressure to use to close the jaws is even more of a problem for me. It's very easy to crush the fibers, leading to an inaccurate and unrepeatable reading. The ratchet release on my micrometer puts light pressure on the piece to be measured that is consistent and never crushes the tips of my triangles. When the calibrated pressure is reached, the spindle keeps on spinning, but the ratchet doesn't allow the anvils to close any further. I expected the micrometer to be slower that the caliper, but with practice, it's almost as fast. I love my little mic! All that being said, most people seem to be able to get fast accurate readings from calipers, as witnessed by the number of quality rods being produced. I'm still having problems getting oversized blanks, even when I measure to the 1,000th and even tend to under size my strips. But that's another topic. Bill Hoy I thought At 07:27 PM 6/15/00, Harry Boyd wrote:Bradley, Gary, Ralph....I agree, in theory. A micrometer is going to be consistently moreaccurate than a dial caliper.But we use dial indicator depth gauges to set home-made forms, andwethen take several thousandths of an inch of cane off with each pass of theplane. Our goal is to get strips that measure out equal to the nearestthousandth, not the nearest tenth. I do well to get within .001". Never wouldI think about trying to get to .0001".My digital caliper (cheapo bought from Lea Valley) measures accuratelyto within .0005". It is completely reliable. I've done some rather crudeexperiments to check it, and it is dead on. I can measure the same piece ofone-quarter inch drill stock 100 times, and still get the same measurement, 100times It measures out to 0.2495, the exact same measurement I get withmyStarrett micrometer. That's plenty good enough for making rods.On the other hand, I've got a couple of sets of dial calipers. Youcan't even get them to return to the same zero consistently. Harry Bradley Love wrote: I second Gary's comments about a micrometer.Calipers get you close,close counts in tossing hand grenadesand playing horseshoes...NOT ROD MAKING... just my opinionBrad ----- Original Message -----From: Heidt Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 2:07 PMSubject: Re: measure At 10:58 AM 6/15/00 -0600, Ralph W Moon wrote:After 30 years of rodmaking, I finally bought a dial caliper. I havealways used a micrometer. After having tried the caliper, I find that Istill prefer my mic. The caliper seems ok for large and roughapproximations, but I seriously question its accuracy. That is if I amusing it correctly, and I may not be. I seem to see that the majorityare using calipers. Can anyone convince me they are a betterinstrument Ralph Ralph,No, you are correct, they are not better for rod making or any otherprecision measuring. Calipers are not as accurate, if you want acorrectmeasurement with repeatablity a micrometer is the only answer.Micrometersmeasure to a tenth, my digital Brown and Sharpe caliper only measures to ahalf thou. with a + or - half thou. repeatablity factor, not to mentionuser error, and in my case it's much greater with a caliper than amicrometer. That means you can be off more than a .001" and thinkyou'redead nuts. Plus a micrometer can take much more use/abuse than acaliperand stay calibrated. It's only my opionion, after quite a few years ofusing both, but I think calipers are just the lazy-way-out.Best regards,Gary H. --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from jmpio@nhbm.com Fri Jun 16 09:15:47 2000 e5GEFlG29431 Subject: RE: Qualities of Bamboo We may be on to something here. My father in law just started FFing ayear ago, and hasn't done very much of it at that. But when he showedup for a visit, I put one of my graphite rods in his hands and he wascasting it pretty well for someone who has done very little casting. Ithink it is because his rod, which he hadn't brought, is an oldslow-action fiberglass. the one problem he had was timing the forewardcast, and I think it may have been because he couldn't feel the stiffgraphite loading. He did eve better when I let him use my Winston (whowouldn't?), but he wasn't willing to touch my cane even after I told himhow little I'd spent on it. Someone ought to talk to some castinginstructors about whether they've found it is easier to teach castingwith slower action rods. If it is, then what better way could there beto teach people the value of cane rods than to have their firstexperiences start with one. -----Original Message-----From: Danny Twang [SMTP:danny.twang@porsgrunnsdagblad.no]Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 12:59 AM Subject: Re: Qualities of Bamboo When I started fishing 3 years ago, I bought a 9` #5-6 graphite rod. Inever figured out the castingproperly. Actually I wanted to buy me a cane rod, but the salesman intheshop, said it was not forbeginners.......A couple of months later I got the opportunity to buy a 7` #3 Chapmancane rod. It has this verydeeeep british action. With this sensitive rod I start understand theartof casting. I could feel theline, and my casting begun to improve. I could lay out more line withthis little rod, than the longgraphite ones..... regardsdanny from eharrison241@earthlink.net Fri Jun 16 10:28:45 2000 e5GFSjG02452 IAA14577 Subject: Re: Silk lines Ralph,I don't understand why you want a copy of the patent, but first you needto find a Patent Library, they are in various cities. Then look throughreams of Index Books for different categories the item you are looking formay have been patented under. It is an inexact science because there aremany categories it could have been patented be under. Once you find it goto the Patent Books and look up the patent number. There will be a drawingof the item, the date, the patent number and who patented it. It is usuallynot enough information to build a copy from.Ernie ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Silk lines I also looked for old patents after seeing that the Gladding tapered linemachine in the pictures that Mike Stevens posted was stated to bepatented.The problem is that the online USPTO database only has current patents,andI would expect the patent on the Gladding machine is certainly expired bynow. I have asked our "intellectual property wizard" here at work how onemight obtain copies for an expired patent, complicated by not knowing it'snumber, and have not heard back from him yet. When I have moreinformationon either the process or maybe even the patent number, I'll be glad toshareit. I did find some references in the rodmaker's list archive to braidingand braiding machines from several years ago, but they came upincidentallyin my www search and I've not yet gone back to do a full archive searchfromthe old list discussions to see if any specifics might be uncovered there. Re: contract braiding, the best shot I thought of was that the round typeshoelaces seem to be of the same type or very similar braid, are round,andare small diameter. Perhaps one of the mfgs involved in them might bepursuaded to try a run at a level line in silk? I suspect, as youindicate,the economics would not be attractive at either end of the deal, though.Doesn't seem to me that knitting machines would produce the same effectthatbraiding does, but.....? Maybe Peter's on to something here! "down under"? ;-) best regards, mac Rick Crenshaw wrote: Peter, I ran a quick search on braiding machines. There are severalmanufacturers of braiding machines and many contract braiders outthere. I did not inquire as to the expense of a machine or the price ofcustom braiding. I do know from my years of experience as a plantmanager in a custom sewing/fabricating plant, that few, if any would beinterested in small lot jobs unless the profit margin was extremelyhigh. The operator training time, the set up time, the QC training makesmall jobs unattractive to most facilities geared to orders of 100 grosslots. Also, getting a tapered line would require special attentionduring the braiding process, I would imagine - stopping to add threadsat stages and then eliminate threads later to get the taper. I'd think it would be better to build a braiding machine. Wish I couldfind an old patent. I tried to search for one without success. Anyonehave experience there? Can someone point me in the right direction? Rick C. petermckean wrote: MikeHave been offline a few days, so have missed the drift of the silkline stuff until tonight, and note with interest the thing aboutCortland & their manufacturing gear.I'm going to run this flag up toget the comments. Sort of lateral thinking dept - Question1 - Does themanufacture of a silk line differ in any substantial way from theknitting of a silk sock?Except the obvious, of course, size and length- and please, no jokes about feet!If there is no essential difference,then possibly small knitting factories might be interested in one- offorders in their slow periods. I don't know about North America, butthere are quite a few of these about in Australia, including one atleast in this town.Question 2 - if you can knit a tube (sock) on adomestic knitting machine, can you knit a fly line?Anybody know aboutthat?Peter from stpete@netten.net Fri Jun 16 11:12:08 2000 e5GGC7G05216 Subject: DynaGlide Before you all rush out to buy a new can of DynaGlide, be forewarnedthat I had to wipe down the forms and the sole of the plane this morningafter planing two rod sections. Seems I may have been a little tooenthusiastic in my application and I saw some slight build up of 'wax'at the top of the forms. It doesn't get into the groove, because I onlytreated the sole of the plane, NOT the forms. The build up wiped offwith a clean rag quite easily. Just the same, I'll be doing my finalpasses with my UNTREATED Stanley 60-1/2. Rick C. from mevans@acxiom.com Fri Jun 16 11:35:51 2000 e5GGZnG06844 (router,SLMail V4.1 (BETA 3)); Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:42:20 -0500 3)) with SMTP (router,SLMail V3.2); Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:31:37 -0500 (204.107.111.23::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Fri, 16 Jun 200011:31:36 -0500 popmail.conway.acxiom.com ; Fri Jun 16 11:31:36 2000 -0500 (5.5.2650.21) "'RODMAKERS'" Subject: RE: Silk lines - Patent Searches I got this from our wizard (patent attorney) passed it on to Rick this A.M. _______ I'm afraid there's no really good answer. There are free places to search Patent and Trademark Offices website at http://www.uspto.gov/ has asearchable patent database for which there is no charge, but I should warnyou that it's not very user-friendly. IBM has a great patent site athttp://www.patents.ibm.com/ibm.html that is also free. I would look in oneof these places first. You can also manually search patents at the They have all of thepatents going backas far as they go (there was a fire sometime in the early 1800's, so many ofthe earliest patents are gone forever). The current system is onmicrofiche, so it's labor-intensive to do a search. Also, if you're notused to searching using the patent office's class/subclass system, it's veryeasy to overlook something. On the plus side, the librarians over there aregreat and will be happy to help you do your search. The library is planningto upgrade to a CD-ROM system soon. The manual search in the patent office is the best search in my opinion;they have everything in hard copy so it's easy to search, and there areseveral firms that make their living doing nothing else so they know thesystem well. If you want to go that route, you'll probably spend between$400-$500 on the search. I can recommend a firm to do that kind of search -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Silk lines I also looked for old patents after seeing that the Gladding tapered linemachine in the pictures that Mike Stevens posted was stated to be patented.The problem is that the online USPTO database only has current patents, andI would expect the patent on the Gladding machine is certainly expired bynow. I have asked our "intellectual property wizard" here at work how onemight obtain copies for an expired patent, ... clipped from sf_saez@email.msn.com Fri Jun 16 13:16:40 2000 e5GIGdG09446 Microsoft SMTPSVC;Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:16:20 -0700 Subject: RE: Silk lines - Patent Searches Importance: Normal If you have a patent number, it cost around $3 per patent to get a copy ofthe patent from the US Patent Office (USPTO). You must sign up for aUSPTOaccount and go through the somewhat arcane process of ordering a copy ofthepatent. If you have the number and don't want to go through the USPTOlearning curve, just email me offline and I'll get a copy for you. Without the patent number, the method (and expense) that Mark outlined areprobably the only way to find it. It may be easier (and cheaper) to contactthe modern day South Bend company (they "consumed" Gladding a long timeago), to see if you can get them go into the company records and dig up thebraiding machine patent number. from the few patents I've seen, it would bevery difficult to recreate the machine being patented. It seems patentsdescribes mostly techniques, processes and general specifications. You won'tfind a blueprint of the machine in the patent copy. On another but related topic, I was surprised to find that the planning formthat all we hand planners use, was patented in 1983 by Giordano Catalano. Idon't know if or where he fits into the history rod making but I've neverheard of him until I found his patent. The patent number is 4,405,002 incase you want a number to play around with in the various patent databasesmentioned by Mark. The Ultimate Bamboo Fly Rod Library web site alsohas a list of interesting patents. -----Original Message----- Evans Subject: RE: Silk lines - Patent Searches I got this from our wizard (patent attorney) passed it on to Rick this A.M._______ I'm afraid there's no really good answer. There are free places to search Patent and Trademark Offices website at http://www.uspto.gov/ has asearchable patent database for which there is no charge, but I should warnyou that it's not very user-friendly. IBM has a great patent site athttp://www.patents.ibm.com/ibm.html that is also free. I would look in oneof these places first. You can also manually search patents at the They have all of thepatents going backas far as they go (there was a fire sometime in the early 1800's, so many ofthe earliest patents are gone forever). The current system is onmicrofiche, so it's labor-intensive to do a search. Also, if you're notused to searching using the patent office's class/subclass system, it's veryeasy to overlook something. On the plus side, the librarians over there aregreat and will be happy to help you do your search. The library is planningto upgrade to a CD-ROM system soon. The manual search in the patent office is the best search in my opinion;they have everything in hard copy so it's easy to search, and there areseveral firms that make their living doing nothing else so they know thesystem well. If you want to go that route, you'll probably spend between$400-$500 on the search. I can recommend a firm to do that kind of search -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Silk lines I also looked for old patents after seeing that the Gladding tapered linemachine in the pictures that Mike Stevens posted was stated to be patented.The problem is that the online USPTO database only has current patents, andI would expect the patent on the Gladding machine is certainly expired bynow. I have asked our "intellectual property wizard" here at work how onemight obtain copies for an expired patent, ... clipped from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Jun 16 13:30:53 2000 e5GIUqG09903 Subject: Re: Silk lines - Patent Searches Guys,I'm not trying to start a fight here, but are we re-inventing theEdsel? With apologies in advance to Reed and other silk line enthusiasts, justbecause Mr. Castwell yearns for an old silk line and a wonder rod to cast it,I'm not sure that it's a good idea.Most rods cast pretty darn well with modern lines. Today's best linesare virtually maintenance free. My cold water fishing is limited to about 25days each year. I usually tie on my first fly by flashlight in the morning, andtake the rod down by the headlights after dark. The only times I stop inbetween are for bathroom/coffee breaks, and maybe a quick lunch. I'm notsure Iwant to spend a significant percentage of my fishing time drying and treatinglines.I was introduced to the joys of silk lines at the Southern RodmakersGathering in 1998. Dennis Higham let me try one of his on a rod I built. It wasmelodic and interesting. I've picked up a few off eBay in the interim, but justas novelties, not as a serious part of my fishing. Other than their smallerdiameter, and perhaps their higher float, I'm not sure what the advantagesaresupposed to be. Harry --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from mevans@acxiom.com Fri Jun 16 13:54:30 2000 e5GIsTG10789 (router,SLMail V4.1 (BETA 3)); Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:01:04 -0500 3)) with SMTP (router,SLMail V3.2); Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:50:56 -0500 (204.107.111.23::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Fri, 16 Jun 200013:50:56 -0500 popmail.conway.acxiom.com ; Fri Jun 16 13:50:55 2000 -0500 (5.5.2650.21) "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Silk lines - Patent Searches I suspect you're right - probably not worth the effort. We've submitted a couple of applications recently and were advised to disclose only enough information to enforce against infringement, but not enough to duplicate the product The drawings have to meet some standards, but that seems to be more for presentation than content. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Silk lines - Patent Searches ... from the few patents I've seen, it would bevery difficult to recreate the machine being patented. ... from piscator@crosswinds.net Fri Jun 16 14:09:12 2000 e5GJ9BG11337 (envelope- from piscator@crosswinds.net) Subject: Re: DynaGlide Just use paste wax, or I use Boeshield sprayed on a rag and rubbed onto theplanesole or forms. Brian Before you all rush out to buy a new can of DynaGlide, be forewarnedthat I had to wipe down the forms and the sole of the plane this morningafter planing two rod sections. Seems I may have been a little tooenthusiastic in my application and I saw some slight build up of 'wax'at the top of the forms. It doesn't get into the groove, because I onlytreated the sole of the plane, NOT the forms. The build up wiped offwith a clean rag quite easily. Just the same, I'll be doing my finalpasses with my UNTREATED Stanley 60-1/2. Rick C. from mbiondo@wuacn.wustl.edu Fri Jun 16 16:41:26 2000 e5GLfPG15991 Subject: Heading to Grayling!!! Hello folks... I'll be heading up to Graying Monday morning for the RODMAKERS Gathering.I will be away from email for the entire next week. Hopefully the listwill be running without problems while I'm away. If anyone hassubscription problems, I'll be happy to deal with them upon my return, orCo-Listguy Jerry Ballard could probably help also. Looking forward to seeing some of you in Grayling... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from Canerods@aol.com Fri Jun 16 17:25:04 2000 e5GMP3G16844 Subject: FWD:bamboo question Posted to FF@ list-serv: from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Jun 16 19:57:36 2000 e5H0vaG19510 (SMTPD32-6.00) id AE1485FE0114; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:02:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Silk lines - (now) not for all anglers Harry,Good point. I, personally, don't find the extra care (reversing a DT inmidday)all that painful, but my fishing pace would be considered lethargic, comparedtomany anglers. Few who have tried silk lines will deny the extra performance --easier casting, higher floating -- but these must be traded off for somecare, e.g.,drying it at days end and dressing it at dawn. The equation is against silk forsome.Perhaps because my work world is composed of 90 minute commutes and20 hour airflights, I prefer to do my fishing the way I did as a kid, slow and easy. Thefishwill wait. For me, anything that slows me down is a help, not a hinderance.But allof this is quality fishing time, even while dressing a silk line, to me.What it boils down to is "One Man's Meat...". A silk line is not a panacea,and,as Harry pointed out, it could be just an annoyance to some fishermen.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Harry Boyd wrote: Guys,I'm not trying to start a fight here, but are we re-inventing theEdsel? With apologies in advance to Reed and other silk line enthusiasts,justbecause Mr. Castwell yearns for an old silk line and a wonder rod to cast it,I'm not sure that it's a good idea.Most rods cast pretty darn well with modern lines. Today's best linesare virtually maintenance free. My cold water fishing is limited to about 25days each year. I usually tie on my first fly by flashlight in the morning,andtake the rod down by the headlights after dark. The only times I stop inbetween are for bathroom/coffee breaks, and maybe a quick lunch. I'mnot sure Iwant to spend a significant percentage of my fishing time drying andtreatinglines.I was introduced to the joys of silk lines at the Southern RodmakersGathering in 1998. Dennis Higham let me try one of his on a rod I built. Itwasmelodic and interesting. I've picked up a few off eBay in the interim, butjustas novelties, not as a serious part of my fishing. Other than their smallerdiameter, and perhaps their higher float, I'm not sure what the advantagesaresupposed to be. Harry --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Jun 16 19:58:58 2000 e5H0wvG19626 (SMTPD32-6.00) id AE664227006E; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:03:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Heading to Grayling!!! Mike,I'm on my way. See you at Spike's.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Mike Biondo wrote: Hello folks... I'll be heading up to Graying Monday morning for the RODMAKERS Gathering.I will be away from email for the entire next week. Hopefully the listwill be running without problems while I'm away. If anyone hassubscription problems, I'll be happy to deal with them upon my return, orCo-Listguy Jerry Ballard could probably help also. Looking forward to seeing some of you in Grayling... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy -- from Canerods@aol.com Fri Jun 16 20:15:12 2000 e5H1FBG19935 Subject: Re: bamboo question HEY GUYS - notice the forwarded subject line!!!! This isn't my post - Please reread the post - I forwarded a post that was on FF@ - see senders email address in the quoted posting. OR I'll sell you cane - but you won't like the price. Don Burns from bob@downandacross.com Fri Jun 16 20:18:47 2000 e5H1IlG20121 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: Re: Silk lines - (now) not for all anglers I see both Harry and Reed's points on this issue.I think that even if I have the limited amount of time to fish that I am now experiencing, that dressing a silk line before leaving and putting it on the line winder to dry when I return, are two of those little things that I can sneak in when I have to be near the house. Just like with building, it will give me a way to keep touch with the fishing I am missing because of work, family, whatever.I like the casting and hooking qualities so far. I enjoy the peaceful rhythm of the line as it passes by. If the fad wears off, I will have enjoyed the fun while it lasted. Heck, I don't catch that many fish anymore anyways!Best regards,Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.combob@downandacross.com from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Jun 16 21:06:02 2000 e5H261G20743 Subject: Re: silk line Hey, A. J.,They's ain't wood, They's grass.Regards,Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Jun 16 21:06:02 2000 e5H262G20747 Subject: RE: Qualities of Bamboo To all,When one of our students or clients has trouble casting their FRP rod we often let 'em use one of our cane rods and they seem to get a better feeland then cast their own rod better. We've been doing this for some time.Cheers,Hank and Marcia WoolmanP.S. Hope to see some of you at Greyrock. from esavage@parkerduryee.com Fri Jun 16 21:33:20 2000 e5H2XHG21221 Subject: eBay Auction In Which You Might Be Interested Based upon what I have read, this probably wouldn't be your first or second(or, maybe, even tenth) choice for a book on building a bamboo rod, but inskimming the eBay offerings I came across a book in which some of you maybeinterested. Its description is as follows:Fundamentals Of Building A Bamboo Fly Rod. By George Maurer & Bernard P.Elser. Countryman, Woodstock, 1998 1st Ed., 255 pages, photos & drawings.Published at $50.00 - Very Fine in a Very Fine dust jacket. Buyer pays $4.00domestic shipping & handling- Insurance is extra based on final price. NewYork residents please add 8.5% sales tax. Its ebay auction number is Item #356135535.And, no, I am not the one auctioning off this book or have any direct orindirect interest in it - just thought some of you might be interested.Ed Savage [esavage@parkerduryee.com] from esavage@parkerduryee.com Fri Jun 16 22:12:04 2000 e5H3C4G21667 Subject: eBay Auction In Which You Might Be Interested Just a further follow-up from looking over other offerings on eBay from thesame seller who was offering that other book on constructing bamboo rod -that seller is offering four other books in which some of you might beinterested. They are as follows:Item #359516534 - Constructing Cane Rods: secrets of the bamboo fly rod.ByRay Gould. Amato, Portland, 1998 1st Ed., 84 pages, color photos, charts &drawings. Published at $39.95 - Very Fine condition. Item #359519448 - The Lovely Reed: An enthusiast's guide to buildingbamboofly rods. By Jack Howell. Pruett, Boulder, 1998 1st Ed., 191 pages, photos,drawings. Covers everything one needs to know about rod building, includingsetting up a proper workshop, procuring essential tools & materials,selecting bamboo, treating & caring, repairs, etc... - Published at $50.00 -Very Fine in a Very Fine dust jacket. Item #359521817 - Amateur Rodmaking. By Perry D. Frazer. Macmillan, NY,19141st ed., 220 pages, illustrated. Very Good condition. Item #359523766 - Classic Bamboo Rodmakers: past & present. By DickSpurr.Centennial, Grand Junction, 1992 1st paperback Ed., 96 pages, photos.Wraps(softbound). Very Fine condition. And, no, I am not the one auctioning off any of these books or have anydirect or indirect interest in any of them - just thought some of you mightbe interested.Ed Savage [esavage@parkerduryee.com] from stpete@netten.net Fri Jun 16 22:25:54 2000 e5H3PrG21877 Subject: Carbide tipped irons/brazing Guys (and any ladies present), is there anyone who could tell me how togo about brazing carbide tips on plane irons. I found some C-2 carbidestock at J&L. Is this the right stuff? How would I go about cuttingthe stuff to length (I can order the right thickness and width)? How doI braze it on the irons? If any of you mechanical minded persons couldrespond, I'd be very appreciative. Rick C. from Troutgetter@aol.com Fri Jun 16 22:35:44 2000 e5H3ZhG22093 Subject: SoCal Makers Are there any, many southern California rodmakers who might be temptedinto something that could be financially interesting? If so, please contact me off list, this could be fun!Mike ShayMike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CA from bh887@lafn.org Fri Jun 16 22:43:28 2000 e5H3hRG22276 forged)) (envelope- from bh887@lafn.org) Subject: Re: Silk lines - Patent Searches HI guys, I have been reading the set on braiding silk lines and the subsequent quest (Expensive!) Know you couldn't do that from the patent drawings, patentattorneys wouldn't let you, if the machine was patented in the first place.But if you are serious about it, I suggest you look in a Thomas guide forbraiding equipment under electronic suppliers. It is still being made andanyone with a cable TV set uses some of the product in the cable..the co-axbraid is done on braiding machines. It is a matter of setup as to thedenseness of the braid and the tension on the wires (threads), etc. Maybesome of the present users of such equipment have some equipment forsale/lease, or know firms looking for contract orders, etc. The things aretough to set up, may require extensive modification to adapt to silkthreads, and where do you go for the silk threads in length and quantity?Seems to me there was a reason to go to synthetics in the first place. Idon't quite see the advantages of silk, and it seems to me we are proceedingsteadily into the past. But I would still buy a few in case I am wrong! Lee----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Silk lines - Patent Searches Guys,I'm not trying to start a fight here, but are we re-inventing theEdsel? With apologies in advance to Reed and other silk line enthusiasts,justbecause Mr. Castwell yearns for an old silk line and a wonder rod to castit,I'm not sure that it's a good idea.Most rods cast pretty darn well with modern lines. Today's bestlinesare virtually maintenance free. My cold water fishing is limited to about25days each year. I usually tie on my first fly by flashlight in themorning, andtake the rod down by the headlights after dark. The only times I stop inbetween are for bathroom/coffee breaks, and maybe a quick lunch. I'mnotsure Iwant to spend a significant percentage of my fishing time drying andtreatinglines.I was introduced to the joys of silk lines at the SouthernRodmakersGathering in 1998. Dennis Higham let me try one of his on a rod I built.It wasmelodic and interesting. I've picked up a few off eBay in the interim,but justas novelties, not as a serious part of my fishing. Other than theirsmallerdiameter, and perhaps their higher float, I'm not sure what the advantagesaresupposed to be. Harry --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from Canerods@aol.com Fri Jun 16 23:10:40 2000 e5H4AeG22746 Subject: READ this if you are interested in this bamboo----was: ...Re: bambooquestion Guys, The poster of the original old bamboo message posted it to FF@list-serv andhas no idea that rodmakers exists. Me, myself and I (Don Burns - not the original poster) posted it to rodmakers. If you want to email him (see orignal post for HIS address) then do so. This is a public notice that the guy can't hear you if you post me or rodmakers!!!!!!!!! Don B. In a message dated 6/16/00 6:48:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca writes: from richjez@enteract.com Sat Jun 17 06:58:46 2000 e5HBwjG26436 (envelope- from richjez@enteract.com) Subject: Re: Heading to Grayling!!! boundary="=====================_976436==_.ALT" --=====================_976436==_.ALT I'am leaving this morning with a couple of stops in between. See you folks wed. Save a few for me, don't drink them all.Rich Jezioro At 07:56 PM 6/16/00, reed curry wrote:Mike,I'm on my way. See you at Spike's.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Mike Biondo wrote: Hello folks... I'll be heading up to Graying Monday morning for the RODMAKERSGathering.I will be away from email for the entire next week. Hopefully the listwill be running without problems while I'm away. If anyone hassubscription problems, I'll be happy to deal with them upon my return, orCo-Listguy Jerry Ballard could probably help also. Looking forward to seeing some of you in Grayling... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy -- *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro@/||/____/||_________________________________________||/\))):> > ))):>--=====================_976436==_.ALT I'am leaving this morning with a couple of stops in between.See you folks wed. Save a few for me, don't drink them all. Rich Jezioro At 07:56 PM 6/16/00, reed curry wrote:Mike, Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Mike Biondo wrote: Gathering. the list has return, or -- *_____________ ___________________) @/ ||/ ____/||_________________________________________ p;/\ ; / bsp; --=====================_976436==_.ALT-- from eharrison241@earthlink.net Sat Jun 17 09:26:36 2000 e5HEQZG28939 HAA06399 Subject: Re: Silk lines - Patent Searches A patent protects the inventor from having someone make and use the itemcommercially, it does not prevent them from making or using it for theirpersonal use. Patent attorneys obtain patents for people, if some oneinfringes on your patent you must take them to court and prove it. A patentattorney may be used to argue your case for you. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Silk lines - Patent Searches HI guys, I have been reading the set on braiding silk lines and the subsequentquest (Expensive!) Know you couldn't do that from the patent drawings, patentattorneys wouldn't let you, if the machine was patented in the firstplace.But if you are serious about it, I suggest you look in a Thomas guide forbraiding equipment under electronic suppliers. It is still being made andanyone with a cable TV set uses some of the product in the cable..theco-axbraid is done on braiding machines. It is a matter of setup as to thedenseness of the braid and the tension on the wires (threads), etc. Maybesome of the present users of such equipment have some equipment forsale/lease, or know firms looking for contract orders, etc. The thingsaretough to set up, may require extensive modification to adapt to silkthreads, and where do you go for the silk threads in length and quantity?Seems to me there was a reason to go to synthetics in the first place. Idon't quite see the advantages of silk, and it seems to me we areproceedingsteadily into the past. But I would still buy a few in case I am wrong! Lee from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sat Jun 17 11:42:48 2000 e5HGglG00389 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Silk lines - Patent Searches I am just curious. What sort of silk thread does one use to braid a lineand how many yards of thread are there in a yard of say E line? What sortof money are we talking here and what sources are available? -Doug ____________(____________|===========================o/ 0 \ / | \__/ \ / Douglas Easton | \ / |\____/ Dpeaston@wzrd.com | |* from darrell@rockclimbing.org Sat Jun 17 13:12:38 2000 e5HICbG01652 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: Silk lines - Patent Searches Rodmakers Importance: Normal Patent lawsuits are a joke! The party with the most money will win... Mybrother designed and patented the first roof rack for the Explorers andJeeps and the big companies copied his design. He has 4 patents. He sued andran out of money after spending about a 1/2 million dollars defending hispatents against a multibillion dollar corporation who copied his design...Of course, the lawyer fees put him out of business as they wouldn't take hiscase on contingency... They kept telling him he'd win a multimillion dollaraward so he kept pumping money in... I don't think any of the silk fly line patents are still in force, but ifthey are, I doubt that the patent holders would want to spend the bucksenforcing a patent on a product they no longer sell and consider to be avery small niche market. Still, if one was find patents in effect, probablythe best course of action might be to pay a small royalty to the patentholder and have them share their technology and expertise if they still haveit... A layman's opinion... Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Silk lines - Patent Searches A patent protects the inventor from having someone make and use the itemcommercially, it does not prevent them from making or using it for theirpersonal use. Patent attorneys obtain patents for people, if some oneinfringes on your patent you must take them to court and prove it. A patentattorney may be used to argue your case for you. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Silk lines - Patent Searches HI guys, I have been reading the set on braiding silk lines and the subsequentquest (Expensive!) Know you couldn't do that from the patent drawings, patentattorneys wouldn't let you, if the machine was patented in the firstplace.But if you are serious about it, I suggest you look in a Thomas guide forbraiding equipment under electronic suppliers. It is still being made andanyone with a cable TV set uses some of the product in the cable..theco-axbraid is done on braiding machines. It is a matter of setup as to thedenseness of the braid and the tension on the wires (threads), etc. Maybesome of the present users of such equipment have some equipment forsale/lease, or know firms looking for contract orders, etc. The thingsaretough to set up, may require extensive modification to adapt to silkthreads, and where do you go for the silk threads in length and quantity?Seems to me there was a reason to go to synthetics in the first place. Idon't quite see the advantages of silk, and it seems to me we areproceedingsteadily into the past. But I would still buy a few in case I am wrong! Lee from darrell@rockclimbing.org Sat Jun 17 13:12:45 2000 e5HICiG01676 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9)with SMTP id for Subject: RE: Heading to Grayling!!! boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01BFD84C.BA88B9E0"Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BFD84C.BA88B9E0 I'm jealous... have fun all you grayrock attendees! Darrellwww.vfish.net-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 5:01 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Heading to Grayling!!! I'am leaving this morning with a couple of stops in between. See you folkswed. Save a few for me, don't drink them all.Rich Jezioro At 07:56 PM 6/16/00, reed curry wrote: Mike,I'm on my way. See you at Spike's.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Mike Biondo wrote: Hello folks... I'll be heading up to Graying Monday morning for the RODMAKERSGathering.I will be away from email for the entire next week. Hopefully thelistwill be running without problems while I'm away. If anyone hassubscription problems, I'll be happy to deal with them upon my return,orCo-Listguy Jerry Ballard could probably help also. Looking forward to seeing some of you in Grayling... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy -- *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro@/||/____/||_________________________________________||/\))):> > >))):> ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BFD84C.BA88B9E0 jealous... have fun all you grayrock attendees! Darrellwww.vfish.net JezioroSent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 5:01 Grayling!!!I'am leaving this = couple of stops in between. See you folks wed. Save a few for me, = them all. Rich JezioroAt 07:56 PM 6/16/00, reed curry =wrote: = you at Spike's.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/Mike = subscription problems, I'll be happy to deal with them upon my = = = = ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BFD84C.BA88B9E0-- from bh887@lafn.org Sat Jun 17 14:22:58 2000 e5HJMvG02585 forged)) (envelope- from bh887@lafn.org) "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Silk lines - Patent Searches Sorry guys, I expressed myself poorly when I referred to patent attorneysnot letting you..... What I meant to convey is that no patent attorney Iever ran into would condone the description of a product or process in sothorough a manner that a third party could easily reproduce the product orprocess from the patent description. Obviously, I'm an engineer, not anattorney, who might have learned to write more clearly had I taken a courseor two in law...or maybe even plain English! Lee----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Silk lines - Patent Searches A patent protects the inventor from having someone make and use theitemcommercially, it does not prevent them from making or using it for theirpersonal use. Patent attorneys obtain patents for people, if some oneinfringes on your patent you must take them to court and prove it. Apatentattorney may be used to argue your case for you. ----- Original Message -----From: "Lee Freeman" Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 8:46 PMSubject: Re: Silk lines - Patent Searches HI guys, I have been reading the set on braiding silk lines and the subsequentquest (Expensive!) Know you couldn't do that from the patent drawings, patentattorneys wouldn't let you, if the machine was patented in the firstplace.But if you are serious about it, I suggest you look in a Thomas guideforbraiding equipment under electronic suppliers. It is still being madeandanyone with a cable TV set uses some of the product in the cable..theco-axbraid is done on braiding machines. It is a matter of setup as to thedenseness of the braid and the tension on the wires (threads), etc.Maybesome of the present users of such equipment have some equipment forsale/lease, or know firms looking for contract orders, etc. The thingsaretough to set up, may require extensive modification to adapt to silkthreads, and where do you go for the silk threads in length andquantity?Seems to me there was a reason to go to synthetics in the first place.Idon't quite see the advantages of silk, and it seems to me we areproceedingsteadily into the past. But I would still buy a few in case I am wrong! Lee from dpvbkjs@somtel.com Sat Jun 17 16:50:15 2000 e5HLoEG04087 Subject: RE: Heading to Grayling!!! ... have fun all you grayrock attendees! Darrellwww.vfish.net Thanks! We're leaving for Michigan on Monday! David and Kathy from oborge@mwt.net Sat Jun 17 20:54:50 2000 e5I1snG05948