from live2huntfish@yahoo.com Sat Mar 10 18:05:17 2001 f2B05Fe26892 (216.241.172.21) Subject: Heddon Black Beauty Hello All, I have a Heddon Black Beauty (model 17) that could use a new reel seatspacer, butt cap, and hardware. If anyone knows where I could get one Iwould appreciate the information. Thanks,Al Rittlive2huntfish@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from piscator@macatawa.org Sat Mar 10 18:31:34 2001 f2B0VXe27311 "Rodmakers" Subject: Payne Parabolics This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0A999.1FAD10A0 Greetings, Will someone share the tapers for Jim Payne's Parapolics? I think he = Also, for all those I talked to about the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo in =Southfield, SWMBO's schedule changed at work, so I can't go. %^( I think she did it on purpose so's I can't have any fun. Brian ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0A999.1FAD10A0 Greetings, Will someone share thetapers = Also, for all those I talked = Midwest Fly Fishing Expo in Southfield, SWMBO's schedule changed at = = I can't have any fun. Brian ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0A999.1FAD10A0-- from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sat Mar 10 19:00:33 2001 (may be forged)) f2B10We27842 (5.5.2653.19) "'rodmakers '" Subject: RE: Tempering: was HT Ovens Rick -- That is one of the most informative and interesting posts I've seen in along time. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Tempering: was HT Ovens Guys (and gals), I have often wanted to jump in to the discussions on tempering cane andthe physical and chemical changes which may or may not occur with heattreating. I'm still not sure that I have much to offer but let me tellyou what I do know. My better half is a chemical engineer and has been employed for the last23 years with a company that processes raw plant fibers into specializedcellulose materials for industrial, food and paper manufacturer's. Hercompany's cellulose interests are with cotton fibers, softwood pulps,and hardwood pulps. Bamboo is a plant which has a very high percentageof cellulose compared to many plants. As you probably already know, thewoody parts of plants is composed almost entirely of two materials: 1)cellulose, the relatively long chained fibers and 2) lignin, which actsmuch like a glue holding the cellulose fibers together. Buckeye'sbusiness is primarily geared to chemically and physically cooking thewood pulps in order to break the lignin- cellulose bonds in the woodchips to refine cellulose for other products. Heating wood chips alters the properties of the lignin and causes some'cross-linking' of the cellulose fibers. I am convinced that heatingbamboo does more than drive out moisture. We are most likely alteringthe bonds of the cellulose chains themselves. Just the right amount ofheat and we increase the cross-linking between cellulose chains. Toomuch and we begin to break the bonds and possible destroy the integrityof the chains themselves. Don't ask me the magic temperature and time. I've asked my wife and shestarts throwing in so many factors and lignin types and celluloselengths that I gave up long ago of getting any kind of real answer fromher. After all, her job has been 23 years of full time work to find themagic answers for her own cellulose problems. What we are left with is to find the answers on our own. I don't havethe time, but the tempering study done by Lloyd Cross available athttp://members.home.net/fishoregon/cane/temper.html or through the linkat Gordon Johnson's page located athttp://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml is a start. I think Mr.Cross leaves out many of the chemical changes caused by heat treatingand focuses on the carbonizing effect which gives us the change incoloration. I am convinced there is much more going on such as changesin chemical bonds between actual cellulose fiber chains. We may neverknow. Who would fund such a study? My position has been to believe that some amount of temperatureincreases the bonds between cellulose fibers and therefore the rigidityof the bamboo and the resistance to sets, but that too much breaks thebonds down. Trial and error. I heat treat and hope it is not too much. A final word about Ammonia Browntoning. You know that many 'plastics'such as screwdriver handles are actually cellulose. Yes, if you takepure cellulose, dissolve it in Sulfuric solutions, then regenerate thefibers through another chemical bath, you can get cellulose fibers whichare cross linked in all sorts of directions and form a solid 'plastic'.Think of rayon, cellophane, sausage casings, etc. All celluloseregenerated solids. Ammonia Browntoning may cause some of this andcrosslink fibers as well. Something to think about. Rick C. from mrmac@tcimet.net Sat Mar 10 19:22:49 2001 f2B1Mme28291 Subject: Southfield show Got to escape for a while today and made the Southfield show for acouple hours. I was quite pleasantly surprised at how many bamboo rodsI was able to look at. Tony Miller is there with the flamed rattanwrapped rod; Ron Barch and John Z; Don Schroeder; Bob Summer; to namejust some that come quick to mind. Saw THE rod. On the cover ofRodmaker magazine about a year ago there was a Darryl Whitehead rod withfull spiff engraved ferrules. It was there (or one just like it), aswell as a second DW rod which was engraved and blackened. Both werepretty special. Some nice quads were at the same booth. Saw one rodwith what I think was a handle done from the cedar bark idea. So,there's plenty of goodies if you look around some. If anyone's thinkingof makin' it tomorrow, you should - there's some real nice rods toreview. Oh, yah, there was all that other "stuff", too, as well as some of thosefunny round rods. ;-) regards, mac from ctn45555@centurytel.net Sat Mar 10 20:21:12 2001 f2B2LBe28969 f2B2L8G01801 Organization: Smith & Boyd Subject: ferrule problems I just finished putting the ferrules on my first rod. The tip sectionswent great-dead on straight to my eye. The butt section ferrule has aslight bend. Glued it with Devcon 2-ton so would rather not try to takeit off. This is my first rod, but I'll venture a guess that rod actionwill not be noticably impaired. My question is, should I apply some heatand try to straighten it? If I mount the sections together, with thebend facing up, it's not really noticable, so I'm tempted to leave italone. Any suggestions or thoughts on the matter would be greatlyappreciated. Thanks in advance, Chad S. Boyd from lblan@provide.net Sat Mar 10 20:50:51 2001 f2B2ope29708 Subject: RE: Another Pantone Trick This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0A9AC.356BCC20 If you have an airbrush, you can use it to do touchup with Pantone pens.Make an adapter to hold the pen tip in front of the nozzle, or simple holdit there, and let the airstream blow the ink out of the tip - no streaks!. Iwatched our illustrator at work using them to amazing effect on hisdrawings. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 4:31 PM Subject: Coloring bamboo rod sections All, Some time back Chris McDowell told me about using Minwax stain sticks, amagic marker-like device, to match replacement bamboo rod sections. I'vealsoused the stain on scarf repaired areas to match the coloring. Greg Hall, a fellow that I've done some scarf repairs wanted to experimentwith other methods since the minwax stain didn't penetrate well and hecameup with using Pantone pens. Don Burns PS - Greg's method is somewhat loosely quoted below: ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0A9AC.356BCC20 have an airbrush, you can use it to do touchup with Pantone pens. Make = adapter to hold the pen tip in front of the nozzle, or simple hold it = let the airstream blow the ink out of the tip - no streaks!. I watched = drawings. Larry Blan Canerods@aol.comSent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 Coloring = Some time back Chris McDowell told me about using Minwax stain= a magic marker-like device, to match replacement bamboo rod = also used the stain on scarf repaired areas to match the coloring. = Greg Hall, a fellow that I've done some scarf repairs wanted = experiment with other methods since the minwax stain didn't = and he came up with using Pantone pens. Don Burns = Greg's method is somewhat loosely quoted below: <<Of= you can pass on the Pantone Pen method. But first, a few = 1. I have only done this with Pantone brand pens so I don't = other permanent type marker pens will work. Pantone pens are = in art supply stores and sometimes in fly shops. 2. Make = your cane surface is clean and free of any residual finishes such = varnish etc.. 3. You should always experiment or practice on a = or pieces of the same or similar cane you want to stain. This = sealing the stain with spar etc. In other words familiarize = it thoroughly before you do it on the actual rod. 4. Seal = stained area with spar varnish that has not been thinned with = spirits. I just warmed it a little. I have not tried anything other = spar to seal the area. So other materials, shellac or polyurethane = may work but I haven't yet tried them. The basic thing is = cautious and be sure that this will work for you and that you know = get the desired effect. I used a Pantone Pen and let it sit = and then rubbed lightly with 4/0 steel wool. It seems that the ink = penetrated very well and doesn't seem affected by the spar. Color = ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0A9AC.356BCC20-- from darrell@rockclimbing.org Sat Mar 10 21:02:23 2001 f2B32Ne00112 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) Subject: RE: Dickerson info Hi Alan, With your permission, I'd like to add your pics to my photo gallery page ofmy website at www.vfish.net/gallery.htm Would you mind? If anyone else would like to have their pics published in my gallery page,please send them to me... I've neglected this page for a long time. Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Dickerson info Shawn, This is in response to a couple postings you made to the list. First, yourequested pictures of Dickerson rods, I have attached pictures of 4 rods. from top to bottom, 1)A Dickerson 861711, 2)A Dickerson 901812restored byJim Schaff, 3) A Dickerson 8014 built by Jim Schaff using a blank made byL.L. Dickerson and components from the Dickerson shop, 4) ACommemorativeDickerson 7613 taper by Jim Schaff. Jim did this rod from new cane,components from the Dickerson shop and planed the blank on the Dickersonforms. Jim bought Dickerson's shop from Tim Bedford, who bought outDickerson, and later teamed with Jerry Stein on the book "Dickerson, the Manand His Rods". I think it's safe to assume that Jim's work accuratelymatches the work of Dickerson as closely as is possible so I think thepictures are representative, even though all the work is not originalDickerson. You also requested guide spacing info for a 7613 so I measuredmine. Again, this was a rod built by Jim Schaff, but my guess would be thatit's pretty accurate. In any case, I've fished it quite a bit and it's apleasure so the guide spacing must be appropriate whether it matches theoriginal or not. from tip toward butt the measurements were: 4", 9-5/8",15-1/4", 21-1/4", 27-1/2", 34-1/4", 41-1/4", 43-3/4", 54-1/8", and 63-5/8".I only included a couple pictures because of file size. If there issomething specific you would like to see, let me know and I can try to getit. Al Rittlive2huntfish@yahoo.com from BambooRods@aol.com Sat Mar 10 22:42:45 2001 f2B4ghe01285 Subject: Gathering Info for Alex To All,Alex Huber (maker from Austria) was wanting to make it to the Grayrock Gathering but due to his schedule will not be able to attend. He will be able to come to the US within the next year or less and wanted to know what other gatherings he could attend. Could those in the know post dates for other gatherings. As he is currently not subscribed to the list I am copying him on this email so respondents should "reply to all". TIADoug Hall from miangler@yahoo.com Sun Mar 11 00:04:41 2001 f2B64fe02742 2001 22:04:43 PST Subject: binder question/taper request Hello again! I have decided to build a binder! Does anyone have asuggestion on what I should use for the blank cradlesand where I can obtain the right sized wheel for themain crank. I need to know where to buy these things,I do not have the tools necessary to turn my own.Also, a while ago on ebay I saw a Lee Wulf rod basedon the one he used in his bush plane days that was a 6footer he used for salmon fishing. Does anyone havethe taper! Just an interest of mine. Well, progresscontinues on my rod making work area! Thanks for allthe help! Especially to Mac and Winston! Mike =====http://miangler.homestead.com/home.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Mar 11 07:12:15 2001 f2BDCDe06304 hme0.telusplanet.net Sun, 11 Mar 2001 06:12:09 -0700 Subject: Re: Tempering Rick, I read with real interest your comments. The testing I've done revealed: - Heating a raw culm causes the check split to open suggesting a reductionin either volatile oils/moisture and a compaction of the remaining fibers.The means that we should get "more bounce for the oz." in treated cane.- A raw strip planes very easily and as the temperature/time of thetempered strip was increased the plane seems to take more effort to pushthrough the cane.- A raw strip will yield long and continous shavings whereas when the caneis "over-tempered", the shavings seem to break off. This suggests thelignin has been profoundly changed. These shavings seems to have electricproperties and want to stick to the plane.- The strips I tested were selected from the same culm, planed aftertreatment [ except for the un-tempered one ] - Testing was done to check for oscillation [ damping of the cane after thecast was delivered ], set and initial strength. There seemed to be littlecorrelation between the results with the un-tempered cane about midwaythrough the pack in test results.Folks use a variety of ovens, heat sources from propane torches tobarbecues, electric heat guns and the like. Most of them stick with themethod they prefer suggesting it works for them. Do any of the methodsmakesense, that's where I'm stumped. My test results suggest otherwise. But,I've invested a sack of bucks and a lot of time not to temper + thecollective wisdom of the builders past all say that I should continue totemper.God, I hope someone figures this out quick - the whole subject has beendriving me crazy for years.Maybe Bob Milward has got it figured - I sure hope so. Hate to see all thetime builders have used on tempering wasted if it doesn't do anything. catch ya' Don At 11:31 AM 3/10/01 -0500, Rick Crenshaw wrote:Guys (and gals), I have often wanted to jump in to the discussions on tempering cane andthe physical and chemical changes which may or may not occur with heattreating. I'm still not sure that I have much to offer but let me tellyou what I do know. My better half is a chemical engineer and has been employed for the last23 years with a company that processes raw plant fibers into specializedcellulose materials for industrial, food and paper manufacturer's. Hercompany's cellulose interests are with cotton fibers, softwood pulps,and hardwood pulps. Bamboo is a plant which has a very high percentageof cellulose compared to many plants. As you probably already know, thewoody parts of plants is composed almost entirely of two materials: 1)cellulose, the relatively long chained fibers and 2) lignin, which actsmuch like a glue holding the cellulose fibers together. Buckeye'sbusiness is primarily geared to chemically and physically cooking thewood pulps in order to break the lignin- cellulose bonds in the woodchips to refine cellulose for other products. Heating wood chips alters the properties of the lignin and causes some'cross-linking' of the cellulose fibers. I am convinced that heatingbamboo does more than drive out moisture. We are most likely alteringthe bonds of the cellulose chains themselves. Just the right amount ofheat and we increase the cross-linking between cellulose chains. Toomuch and we begin to break the bonds and possible destroy the integrityof the chains themselves. Don't ask me the magic temperature and time. I've asked my wife and shestarts throwing in so many factors and lignin types and celluloselengths that I gave up long ago of getting any kind of real answer fromher. After all, her job has been 23 years of full time work to find themagic answers for her own cellulose problems. What we are left with is to find the answers on our own. I don't havethe time, but the tempering study done by Lloyd Cross available athttp://members.home.net/fishoregon/cane/temper.html or through thelinkat Gordon Johnson's page located athttp://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml is a start. I think Mr.Cross leaves out many of the chemical changes caused by heat treatingand focuses on the carbonizing effect which gives us the change incoloration. I am convinced there is much more going on such as changesin chemical bonds between actual cellulose fiber chains. We may neverknow. Who would fund such a study? My position has been to believe that some amount of temperatureincreases the bonds between cellulose fibers and therefore the rigidityof the bamboo and the resistance to sets, but that too much breaks thebonds down. Trial and error. I heat treat and hope it is not too much. A final word about Ammonia Browntoning. You know that many 'plastics'such as screwdriver handles are actually cellulose. Yes, if you takepure cellulose, dissolve it in Sulfuric solutions, then regenerate thefibers through another chemical bath, you can get cellulose fibers whichare cross linked in all sorts of directions and form a solid 'plastic'.Think of rayon, cellophane, sausage casings, etc. All celluloseregenerated solids. Ammonia Browntoning may cause some of this andcrosslink fibers as well. Something to think about. Rick C. from dickay@alltel.net Sun Mar 11 08:04:06 2001 f2BE45e06917 Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:04:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Pack rods Jim, In the archives you'll find a 4', 2 piece, 4wt. by A.J. Thramer. Itseems that this might make an excellent Pack Rod.Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Pack rods The last 2 rods I made are a Payne #98 7'#4 in 3 pc. and a Young Midge6'3" #4 also in 3 pc. Love 'em! Marty Okay, I know I'm getting ahead of myself here. Haven't finished thefirstrod, and I'm already thinking about the second. I do a lot ofbackpackingwhere I fish small streams. I've always wanted a really small pack rod,Ieven seriously considered a 5-piece Winston 8' graph**e rod lastsummer.What I really want is a 7' 3-4 wt, 3 piece. My question is, on a rodthatshort, it seems that using two ferrules would have a couple ofundesirablecharacteristics, excess weight slowing the rod, and two significant flatspots. Is anyone building short 3-piece rods and how do they cast? from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Mar 11 08:12:20 2001 f2BECKe07334 "rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Silk Line maintenance Chris,While both lines may improve from a break-in period, the Phoenix is quitefishable, and pleasant to cast, right out of the box. The Thebault, bycontrast, isvery stiff and can't be immediately fished.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Chris Bogart wrote: Chris The truth is both lines need a break in period - just likea pair of jeans - you need a couple of good days of hard fishingto make the lines soft and smooth. Once you have done thisthen they need minor maintaince - best rule is to dress the linewhen you go out - take a break after 4 hours - let line drywhile you take the break and redress the line for the rest ofthe day - no problems at all. I am currently fishing some linesthat are over 50 years old with no problems - can you saythat about your plastic lines? Chris from stpete@netten.net Sun Mar 11 11:09:00 2001 f2BH8we09304 Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:12:40 -0600 Subject: Re: Tempering Don, That's the kind of testing that will lead to the results we need. It wassuggested that I fund research through the National Science Foundation. Goodsuggestion, but I don't have the time or experience to do the research. Itwould be cool to get a grant to buy the ovens, cane, electron microscope,gaschromatograph, various tensile strength, tear strength, resiliency testmachines and , in effect, fund a whole climate controlled lab to find theanswers. I think that in the end, just our homebrewed testing will tell uswhat we need to know. One thing to think about. Before doing any work on wood chips, my wife'splantmakes sure that the chips are all in the same 'condition'. In other words,they are soaked, tumbled, dried, etc. so that they come out the samepercentmoisture, density, etc. In the past, makers have recommended a specificheattreatment for all raw cane. But perhaps the moisture content and otherconditions of the cane BEFORE heat treating are an important factor.Considering local and seasonal humidity and temperature, what works best inDenver, CO may not be the optimum heat treating regimen in New Orleans,LA. BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes and removeshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much of theremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will never rehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moisture asitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture content to agreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Rick, I read with real interest your comments. The testing I've done revealed: - Heating a raw culm causes the check split to open suggesting a reductionin either volatile oils/moisture and a compaction of the remaining fibers.The means that we should get "more bounce for the oz." in treated cane.- A raw strip planes very easily and as the temperature/time of thetempered strip was increased the plane seems to take more effort to pushthrough the cane.- A raw strip will yield long and continous shavings whereas when the caneis "over-tempered", the shavings seem to break off. This suggests thelignin has been profoundly changed. These shavings seems to have electricproperties and want to stick to the plane.- The strips I tested were selected from the same culm, planed aftertreatment [ except for the un-tempered one ]- Testing was done to check for oscillation [ damping of the cane after thecast was delivered ], set and initial strength. There seemed to be littlecorrelation between the results with the un-tempered cane about midwaythrough the pack in test results.Folks use a variety of ovens, heat sources from propane torches tobarbecues, electric heat guns and the like. Most of them stick with themethod they prefer suggesting it works for them. Do any of the methodsmakesense, that's where I'm stumped. My test results suggest otherwise. But,I've invested a sack of bucks and a lot of time not to temper + thecollective wisdom of the builders past all say that I should continue totemper.God, I hope someone figures this out quick - the whole subject has beendriving me crazy for years.Maybe Bob Milward has got it figured - I sure hope so. Hate to see all thetime builders have used on tempering wasted if it doesn't do anything. catch ya' Don from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sun Mar 11 11:23:49 2001 f2BHNme09609 JAA09628 (5.5.2650.21) "'stpete@netten.net'" Subject: RE: Tempering Bob Millward has already done that and presented a lot of his findings atCorbett Lake last year and will be publishing a book shortly. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 8:07 AM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering Don, That's the kind of testing that will lead to the results we need. It wassuggested that I fund research through the National Science Foundation. Goodsuggestion, but I don't have the time or experience to do the research. Itwould be cool to get a grant to buy the ovens, cane, electron microscope,gaschromatograph, various tensile strength, tear strength, resiliency testmachines and , in effect, fund a whole climate controlled lab to find theanswers. I think that in the end, just our homebrewed testing will tell uswhat we need to know. One thing to think about. Before doing any work on wood chips, my wife'splantmakes sure that the chips are all in the same 'condition'. In other words,they are soaked, tumbled, dried, etc. so that they come out the samepercentmoisture, density, etc. In the past, makers have recommended a specificheattreatment for all raw cane. But perhaps the moisture content and otherconditions of the cane BEFORE heat treating are an important factor.Considering local and seasonal humidity and temperature, what works bestinDenver, CO may not be the optimum heat treating regimen in New Orleans,LA. BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes and removeshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much of theremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will never rehydrateatambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moistureas itdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture content toagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Rick, I read with real interest your comments. The testing I've done revealed: - Heating a raw culm causes the check split to open suggesting areductionin either volatile oils/moisture and a compaction of the remaining fibers.The means that we should get "more bounce for the oz." in treated cane.- A raw strip planes very easily and as the temperature/time of thetempered strip was increased the plane seems to take more effort topushthrough the cane.- A raw strip will yield long and continous shavings whereas when thecaneis "over-tempered", the shavings seem to break off. This suggests thelignin has been profoundly changed. These shavings seems to haveelectricproperties and want to stick to the plane.- The strips I tested were selected from the same culm, planed aftertreatment [ except for the un-tempered one ]- Testing was done to check for oscillation [ damping of the cane afterthecast was delivered ], set and initial strength. There seemed to be littlecorrelation between the results with the un-tempered cane about midwaythrough the pack in test results.Folks use a variety of ovens, heat sources from propane torches tobarbecues, electric heat guns and the like. Most of them stick with themethod they prefer suggesting it works for them. Do any of the methodsmakesense, that's where I'm stumped. My test results suggest otherwise.But,I've invested a sack of bucks and a lot of time not to temper + thecollective wisdom of the builders past all say that I should continue totemper.God, I hope someone figures this out quick - the whole subject has been> driving me crazy for years.Maybe Bob Milward has got it figured - I sure hope so. Hate to see all thetime builders have used on tempering wasted if it doesn't do anything. catch ya' Don from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Mar 11 12:00:29 2001 f2BI0Re10171 Subject: Re: Tempering rodmakers BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes and removeshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much of theremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moistureas itdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture content to agreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood. Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's been heatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and that is"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) the USForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and they foundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually see inthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nice countrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sunday offso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down the trackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow I gotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the point isheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 years todevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically to thecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you as thescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hard toplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection compared witha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as it couldbefore the difference should be noticeable. TonyAV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igive express permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward this message. /*************************************************************************/ from DEMARALON@aol.com Sun Mar 11 12:22:58 2001 f2BIMve10574 Subject: Re: Gathering Info for Alex rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Perhaps Alex could make the Roscoe, NY gathering in the Catskills on September 7, 8, 9, 2001. Then there is the Southern Rod Gathering in Mountain Home, Arkansas in late October. He might want to visit their website, http://www.curro.net/srg99/ for more information. Harry Boydwas and is the driving force of this gathering. For what it is worth I found his website - http://www.canerods.com/srg.htm - very interesting. Eileen Demarest from cmj@post11.tele.dk Sun Mar 11 12:50:24 2001 f2BIoNe11133 +0100 Subject: Sv: Tempering f2BIoOe11134 Tony wrote (snipped) It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection compared witha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as it couldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Usually I dont overcook my bamboo, but using my "Pipe of Fire" makes thebamboovery dark. After heattreating I split and then soak the strips for wetstraigthening. My experience is that the bamboo litterally dries while looking at it, and Icannot detect any difference when compared to the bamboo that is heattreated,but not yet soaked. In short: flamed bamboo is not influenced by being soaked and dried. regards,carsten from oborge@mwt.net Sun Mar 11 16:41:32 2001 f2BMfVe13737 Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I have donethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. It floatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float better andlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message----- McDowell Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebault lines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Mar 11 17:11:28 2001 f2BNBSe14257 Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:11:28 -0500 (5.0.2195;1) Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Olaf I am not offended. Someone needs to carry the torch I passed Reed the following: Plastic Lines are as good as they get right out ofthe box and they go down hill from there. Silk lines onlyget better with fishing and age. Chris On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:41:24 -0600, Olaf Borge wrote: Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I have donethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. It floatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float better andlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu McDowellSent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebault lines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from HomeyDKlown@att.net Sun Mar 11 17:53:11 2001 f2BNrAe14891 ;Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:53:03 +0000 Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Olaf, No offense taken. It's good to hear "the word" from those who really know. Thanks, Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I have donethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. It floatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float better andlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message----- McDowell Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebault lines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun Mar 11 17:54:34 2001 f2BNsXe15015 Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:44:33 -0600 "rodmakers" Subject: Re: Tempering What a great discussion ! All I can add to it is with balsa wood, we knowthat soaking it in ammonia destroys much of the lignum (lignin ?) and thebalsa is never as strong as before. I mention this only because of theammonia treatment to cane some use.GMA from sniderja@email.uc.edu Sun Mar 11 18:49:31 2001 f2C0nUe15942 Subject: Re: Tempering "rodmakers" Lignin is correct for the cementing compound in wood fibers and relatedcells. It is derived from lignum, the latin word for wood. Occasionally itis incorrectly transliterated. At 06:02 PM 03/11/2001 -0600, nobler wrote:What a great discussion ! All I can add to it is with balsa wood, we knowthat soaking it in ammonia destroys much of the lignum (lignin ?) and thebalsa is never as strong as before. I mention this only because of theammonia treatment to cane some use.GMA from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sun Mar 11 19:24:19 2001 (may be forged)) f2C1OIe16548 (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with the importanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heat tempering reducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition to the factthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard stories of rodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this was becausetheywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough related that agiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree of tempering (orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do with sugars in thebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes. So it'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause much color changecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heating thatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this is addressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with the list a wiseold saying - hard won ignorance is the most persistent kind. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Tempering BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much of theremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moistureasitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture content to agreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood. Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's been heatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and that is"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) the USForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and they foundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually see inthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nice countrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sunday offso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down the trackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow I gotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the point isheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 years todevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically to thecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you as thescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hard toplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection compared witha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as it couldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony/*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igive express permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward this message. /*************************************************************************/ from Rcolo@ix.netcom.com Sun Mar 11 19:28:25 2001 f2C1SPe16739 Subject: Re: Silk Line maintenance Olaf....keep up the good work. Just cast my first silk line on the snow3 hours ago. Can't wait to get in the water......Rich P.S. Shouldbe perfect for the 6' one piece T@T taper I had sent along Dennis Haftel wrote: Olaf, No offense taken. It's good to hear "the word" from those who really know. Thanks, Dennis -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 5:41 PM Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I have donethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. It floatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float better andlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu McDowellSent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebaultlines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from cadams46@juno.com Sun Mar 11 20:09:01 2001 f2C290e17549 21:08:40 EST Subject: Re: binder question/taper request Mike,I'd suggest a farm and ranch store. I've found they carry all sorts ofgreat things for binders. If you have a Cal Ranch Store, or CountryGeneral or something. They had a great supply of pullies and such. As cradels. Hope that helps.Sincerely,C.R. Adams from dnorl@qwest.net Sun Mar 11 20:39:04 2001 f2C2d3e18180 0000 (63.228.46.245) Subject: Re: Silk Line maintenance Keep us posted Olaf, I'll put a worm on my tounge and wait with baitedbreathDave-----Original Message----- rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I havedonethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. Itfloatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float betterandlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu McDowellSent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebaultlines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from mtbrown@sprynet.com Sun Mar 11 21:55:40 2001 f2C3tbe19399; ,"and Collecting" Subject: Re: RODMAKERS digest 290 HI All: Do any of you know of any bamboo rodmakers in Houston TX. I aminterested in spending some time with someone experienced in the art in myarea.Mike----- Original Message ----- ;"and Collecting" ;"and Collecting" Subject: RODMAKERS digest 290 RODMAKERS Digest 290 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Coloring bamboo rod sections 2) RE: Dickerson info 3) Heddon Black Beauty 4) Payne Parabolics 5) RE: Tempering: was HT Ovens 6) Southfield show 7) ferrule problems 8) RE: Another Pantone Trick 9) RE: Dickerson info 10) Gathering Info for Alex 11) binder question/taper request 12) Re: Tempering 13) Re: Pack rods 14) Re: Silk Line maintenance 15) Re: Tempering 16) RE: Tempering 17) Re: Tempering 18) Re: Gathering Info for Alex 19) Sv: Tempering from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun Mar 11 22:10:58 2001 f2C4Ave19681 Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:01:03 -0600 Subject: Re: Tempering If anything I think the "ring of fire" was/is an aid to preserving the cane.My PHY's are over 40 years old, and still perfect. Just one guys opinion.GMA from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Mar 11 23:01:10 2001 f2C51Ae20678 hme0.telusplanet.net Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:01:05 -0700 Subject: Re: Tempering Tony, Here is a copy of the message that I sent Rick a moment ago addressing thesame issue. Somebody and I really sorry I can't remember who, tempered and rehydratethe cane over a couple of weeks or months or years. I just can't rememberthe test. Do recall the result though. Tempered cane would not return tothe moisture content of previously untempered cane. The cane sunk to 0%androse only to 6>8% whereas before tempering it was 12% as I recall it. Seemslike the inter-spacial areas wouldn't allow the moisture to intrude again.Whether this matters spit or not depends on the test used to determinestrength/oscillation/set I previously described. As Patrick Coffey mentioned, Bob Milward replicated the testing I've donepreviously. His results and conclusions should be in his new book. Whetherhis conclusions are the same as mine are unknown. Others, however, havebasically found that untempered cane may/may not preform as well astempered cane which is the same conclusion that I found and has baffled mesince.What must be remembered is that whether we temper or not, flame or notdoesn't really matter much if the performance of the finished rod isunaffected by either tempering or flaming. regards, Don At 02:01 AM 3/12/01 +0800, Tony Young wrote:BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes and removeshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much oftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moistureas itdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture content toagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood. Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's been heatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and that is"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) the USForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually see inthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nice countrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down the trackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow I gotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the point isheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically to thecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you as thescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hard toplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection compared witha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as it couldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony/*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igive express permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Mar 12 00:07:55 2001 f2C67se22057 Subject: Re: Tempering Hi Don and all,I recall the same info coming to us at one of our early Corbett lakeworkshops. I believe it was from Jess Wells who was a violin maker fromOregon I think. The test showed that the cane started out at 12-13% , wasdriven down to zero, and returned to 6% or so.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tempering Tony, Here is a copy of the message that I sent Rick a moment ago addressingthesame issue. Somebody and I really sorry I can't remember who, tempered and rehydratethe cane over a couple of weeks or months or years. I just can'trememberthe test. Do recall the result though. Tempered cane would not return tothe moisture content of previously untempered cane. The cane sunk to 0%androse only to 6>8% whereas before tempering it was 12% as I recall it.Seemslike the inter-spacial areas wouldn't allow the moisture to intrude again.Whether this matters spit or not depends on the test used to determinestrength/oscillation/set I previously described. As Patrick Coffey mentioned, Bob Milward replicated the testing I've donepreviously. His results and conclusions should be in his new book. Whetherhis conclusions are the same as mine are unknown. Others, however, havebasically found that untempered cane may/may not preform as well astempered cane which is the same conclusion that I found and has baffledmesince.What must be remembered is that whether we temper or not, flame or notdoesn't really matter much if the performance of the finished rod isunaffected by either tempering or flaming. regards, Don At 02:01 AM 3/12/01 +0800, Tony Young wrote:BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much oftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as muchmoistureas itdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture contentto agreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood.Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's beenheatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and thatis"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) theUSForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually seeinthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nicecountrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down thetrackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow Igotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the pointisheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically tothecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you asthescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hardtoplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection comparedwitha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as itcouldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igiveexpress permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Mon Mar 12 05:46:50 2001 f2CBkne25945 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:46:47 -0500 Subject: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Some great threads on ovens and tempering lately. A lot of thoughtprovoking information but as always if I think too much I get confused. There is no single (or should that read simple) answer to the question I amgoing to pose since everyone tempers/heat treats differently but here goes. I built a Cattanach style oven and how long should one heat treat theirstrips? There has been some variance in the times mentioned in previous posts.Someone said they were using their kitchen oven and "baking" for 20minutes,the books seem to say around 7.5 minutes. Maybe the answer can't beexpressed in minutes due to the variance in methods but is there a test oran observation us first timers can use to determine when done? Thanks again for your helpTim from dutcher@email.msn.com Mon Mar 12 07:24:09 2001 f2CDO9e27005 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:24:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners That is a great question, Tim. I am still a bit confused as to what weare trying to accomplish here. 1. Are we trying to reduce the moisturecontent only, in the cane? Which in my mind would mean using an oven withlower temperatures with exhausted convection air and longer time so as todehydrate the cane.. 2. Are we trying to temper the cane i. e., change thephysical properties by using high temperature? I can see that lowering the moisture content of the cane is a definiteplus in my way of thinking. And, I tend to go along with tempering the cane.The question I have is, are we not talking about two completely separateissues here? It seems to me by going straight to high temperature wouldcause the moisture to boil out there by causing cellular damage. I do notbelieve this would cause a noticeable weakness as much as it would cause aninconsistency in the overall strength of the cane. The moisture trying toescape the cane at high temperature will take the path of least resistancethere by further weakening the natural weak spots in the cane. However,heattreating a dehydrated cane would be more likely to produce an improved andconsistent rod and the results should be repeatable. Regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message -----From: Tim Wilhelm Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:43 AMSubject: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Some great threads on ovens and tempering lately. A lot of thoughtprovoking information but as always if I think too much I get confused. There is no single (or should that read simple) answer to the question Iamgoing to pose since everyone tempers/heat treats differently but heregoes. I built a Cattanach style oven and how long should one heat treat theirstrips? There has been some variance in the times mentioned in previous posts.Someone said they were using their kitchen oven and "baking" for 20minutes,the books seem to say around 7.5 minutes. Maybe the answer can't beexpressed in minutes due to the variance in methods but is there a test oran observation us first timers can use to determine when done? Thanks again for your helpTim from brookie@frii.com Mon Mar 12 07:28:25 2001 f2CDSOe27213 Subject: Back on Rodmakers to Lurk and Learn Hello again to the canemakers *g*, I took a break from the List when all that virus attachment activity was occurring some months ago. Some of us that have cane rods (and other valued flyfishing toys) have to be very prudent in our 'other' spending just because of our love and participating fully in flyfishing. For me ? That means no high-end PC. Every possibility that something may happen to Betsy here is a worry. I'm looking forward to the banter on the List, looking much more towards the pre-runoff in Colorado. There is a magic 3-4 weeks when the ice melts from the streams and banks, just before the screaming melt down from the high mountains. A time when the bows, browns and brookies are raveneous. Our weather -has- been warm, the streams and cricks ARE melting, and I shall be out this week. Really looking forward to the higher altitude areas melting ... Have a fellow Rodmaker coming through from East Coast, through northern Colorado on his way to the west coast. If the weather will cooperate, we'll get out this coming weekend. from Colorado then, good to be back...Sue from dlrivers@metrocast.net Mon Mar 12 07:48:24 2001 f2CDmNe27647 Subject: wooden planing forms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0AAD1.6A43F820 I'm about to attempt my first rod and will build my own form. Is there =any reason a router can't be use to cut the groove? Also does anyone =out there hand bind their glued up strips? Since I plan on making only =a few rods for myself and as gifts to friends (I hope ) I don't know if =a binder is a convenience or a requirement. Thanks to all who respondDave ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0AAD1.6A43F820 I'm about to attempt my first rod= Since I plan on making only a few rods for myself and as gifts to = to all who respondDave ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0AAD1.6A43F820-- from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Mon Mar 12 07:59:51 2001 f2CDxoe28067 Subject: Re: wooden planing forms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C0AAD2.FA85CA20 Hi Dave, I made my rough planing forms out of oak boards that I ran through myroutertable with a 60 degree bit. I made several depths for tips, butts anddifferent rod sizes. It only took a few minutes on each one and I haven'thad a problem. Just use a hard wood like oak or maple. I've rough planed anumber of rods already on mine without a problem. hope this helps. John K.-----Original Message-----From: DlRivers Date: Monday, March 12, 2001 8:49 AMSubject: wooden planing forms I'm about to attempt my first rod and will build my own form. Is thereany reason a router can't be use to cut the groove? Also does anyone outthere hand bind their glued up strips? Since I plan on making only a fewrods for myself and as gifts to friends (I hope ) I don't know if a binderis a convenience or a requirement. Thanks to all who respondDave ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C0AAD2.FA85CA20 Hi Dave, I made my rough planing forms out of oak boardsthat = problem. hope this helps. John K. -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Monday, March 12, 2001 8:49 AMSubject: woodenplaning = formsI'm about to attempt my first = Dave ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C0AAD2.FA85CA20-- from rmoon@ida.net Mon Mar 12 08:42:48 2001 f2CEgle29920 Subject: Re: wooden planing forms --------------01897BFB30D598B35BD6038E DaveI hope that you don't take this amiss. My personal feelingis that if you intend to build bamboo rods, you should stickto good equipment and proved methods. 1. You can not getgood accuracy on a wooden planing form. Take it from me, Ibuilt my first on wood and it took something like threetimes as long to do it (time spent in laboriously mikingevery pass of the plane.) If cost is a factor, make yourown, there are several good papers written on how to do it.2. I will to my dying day maintain that no one can handwrap a bamboo rod and attain the pressure needed to get agood blue bond. Since the wrapping thread is applied bypassing under the driving cord which exerts tremendouspressure the section is assured of a good bond. If you tryto wrap by hand, the binding cord will break at only a tinyfraction of the force achieved in a wrapping implement.Again if cost is a factor build you own. Mine cost about$10 and three or four hours to build and I have used it fornearly thirty years. Finally study (don't just read) one ofthe several fine books on making a rod. Certainly Garrisonand Cattanach, but there is much to be gained in Maurer'sbook and Ray Goulds and The Lovely Cane. Finally if youcan find someone experienced talk with him. I think that you will be very disappointed if you approachrod building in the manner you describe. Do it the best youcan with the best you find of materials and equipment. Don'skimp. Then you will be truly satisfied and proud of yourresults. Ralph --------------01897BFB30D598B35BD6038E Dave that if you intend to build bamboo rods, you should stick to good equipment wooden something like three times as long to do it (time spent in laboriously will to my dying day maintain that no one can hand wrap a bamboo rod and wrappingthread is applied by passing under the driving cord which exerts tremendous Garrisonand Cattanach, but there is much to be gained in Maurer's book and Ray can find someone experienced talk with him.I think that you will be very disappointed if you approach rod building be truly satisfied and proud of your results.Ralph --------------01897BFB30D598B35BD6038E-- from cathcreek@hotmail.com Mon Mar 12 08:47:43 2001 f2CElge00232 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:47:39 -0800 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:47:39 GMT Subject: Re: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners FILETIME=[62AB77F0:01C0AB03] Not sure if I am beating a dead horse. I do what Ralph Moon suggested once on the list (thanks Ralph). I turn my cane every 2 minutes and I wait until the smell is right. Hard to describe what that right smell is, but it is definitely there. I believe the oven is doing both moisture removal and tempering and I set my oven at about 350 or 370. That usually meansbetween 10 and 12 minutes (depends on if I am doing two sections at once or only one). I do get more heat applied to the middle and have not noticed a difference or a problem related to this. I also flame my cane prior to splitting and I think this has a big impact on the action (new thread?) Most of my heat/tempering/flaming techniques come from Waynes firstbook (Thanks Wayne). Not sure if I have helped or not. Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com From: "Richard R. Dutcher" Subject: Re: Tempering - Practical Information for beginnersDate: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:24:56 -0800 That is a great question, Tim. I am still a bit confused as to what weare trying to accomplish here. 1. Are we trying to reduce the moisturecontent only, in the cane? Which in my mind would mean using an oven withlower temperatures with exhausted convection air and longer time so as todehydrate the cane.. 2. Are we trying to temper the cane i. e., change thephysical properties by using high temperature? I can see that lowering the moisture content of the cane is a definiteplus in my way of thinking. And, I tend to go along with tempering the cane.The question I have is, are we not talking about two completely separateissues here? It seems to me by going straight to high temperature wouldcause the moisture to boil out there by causing cellular damage. I do notbelieve this would cause a noticeable weakness as much as it would causeaninconsistency in the overall strength of the cane. The moisture trying toescape the cane at high temperature will take the path of least resistancethere by further weakening the natural weak spots in the cane. However, heattreating a dehydrated cane would be more likely to produce an improved andconsistent rod and the results should be repeatable. Regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message -----From: Tim Wilhelm Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:43 AMSubject: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Some great threads on ovens and tempering lately. A lot of thoughtprovoking information but as always if I think too much I get confused. There is no single (or should that read simple) answer to the question Iamgoing to pose since everyone tempers/heat treats differently but heregoes. I built a Cattanach style oven and how long should one heat treat theirstrips? There has been some variance in the times mentioned in previous posts.Someone said they were using their kitchen oven and "baking" for 20minutes,the books seem to say around 7.5 minutes. Maybe the answer can't beexpressed in minutes due to the variance in methods but is there a test oran observation us first timers can use to determine when done? Thanks again for your helpTim _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Mon Mar 12 09:04:17 2001 f2CF4Ge01147 Subject: Re: wooden planing forms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01C0AADB.F8DD8240 Oops- I assumed he was talking about ROUGH forms!!!! I would only do therough stuff on wood- and then go to the steel forms for tapering!!!!!!!!!!! John K.-----Original Message-----From: Ralph W Moon Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:44 AMSubject: Re: wooden planing forms DaveI hope that you don't take this amiss. My personal feeling is that ifyou intend to build bamboo rods, you should stick to good equipment andproved methods. 1. You can not get good accuracy on a wooden planingform.Take it from me, I built my first on wood and it took something like threetimes as long to do it (time spent in laboriously miking every pass of theplane.) If cost is a factor, make your own, there are several good paperswritten on how to do it. 2. I will to my dying day maintain that no onecan hand wrap a bamboo rod and attain the pressure needed to get a goodbluebond. Since the wrapping thread is applied by passing under the drivingcord which exerts tremendous pressure the section is assured of a goodbond.If you try to wrap by hand, the binding cord will break at only a tinyfraction of the force achieved in a wrapping implement. Again if cost is afactor build you own. Mine cost about $10 and three or four hours to buildand I have used it for nearly thirty years. Finally study (don't just read)one of the several fine books on making a rod. Certainly Garrison andCattanach, but there is much to be gained in Maurer's book and Ray Gouldsand The Lovely Cane. Finally if you can find someone experienced talkwith him. I think that you will be very disappointed if you approach rod buildingin the manner you describe. Do it the best you can with the best you findof materials and equipment. Don' skimp. Then you will be truly satisfiedand proud of your results. Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01C0AADB.F8DD8240 Oops- I assumed he was talkingabout = John K. -----Original = dlrivers@metrocast.net = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Monday, March 12, 2001 9:44 AMSubject: Re: wooden = is that if you intend to build bamboo rods, you should stick to good = and it took something like three times as long to do it (time spent = your own, there are several good papers written on how to do = wrapping thread is applied by passing under the driving cord which = to wrap by hand, the binding cord will break at only a tiny fraction = Garrison and Cattanach, but there is much to be gained in Maurer's = I think that you will be very disappointed if you approach rod = Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01C0AADB.F8DD8240-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 12 09:22:54 2001 f2CFMre02243 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:22:41 -0800 Subject: Re: RODMAKERS digest 290 Mike,Here are a few:Morten Lovstad Kurt Loup Mark Petrie Troy Miller Mark Cole is also in Houston, but I don't have Mark's email address handy. Hope this helps,Harry Boyd Mike and Melissa Brown wrote: HI All: Do any of you know of any bamboo rodmakers in Houston TX. I aminterested in spending some time with someone experienced in the art inmyarea.Mike----- Original Message -----From: ;;"and Collecting" ;"and Collecting" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 3:00 PMSubject: RODMAKERS digest 290 RODMAKERS Digest 290 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Coloring bamboo rod sections 2) RE: Dickerson info 3) Heddon Black Beauty 4) Payne Parabolics 5) RE: Tempering: was HT Ovens 6) Southfield show 7) ferrule problems 8) RE: Another Pantone Trick 9) RE: Dickerson info 10) Gathering Info for Alex 11) binder question/taper request 12) Re: Tempering 13) Re: Pack rods 14) Re: Silk Line maintenance 15) Re: Tempering 16) RE: Tempering 17) Re: Tempering 18) Re: Gathering Info for Alex 19) Sv: Tempering --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from rmoon@ida.net Mon Mar 12 09:25:29 2001 f2CFPSe02457 0000 Subject: Re: wooden planing forms --------------086A52E85C06F48DA7AC1FC9 John Kenealy wrote: Oops- I assumed he was talking about ROUGH forms!!!! Iwould only do the rough stuff on wood- and then go to thesteel forms for tapering!!!!!!!!!!! John K. John, I guess I made an assumption as well. If so Iapologize. Actually I do use a number of wooden formsmyself, but only to hold the strip after it is shaped. Inever do any planing on the wooden forms. I made myself ashort adjustable metal roughing form that does a better job Ralph --------------086A52E85C06F48DA7AC1FC9 John Kenealy wrote:Oops- rough stuff on wood- and then go to the steel forms for K. Actually I do use a number of wooden forms myself, but only to hold the I made myself a short adjustable metal roughing form that does a betterjob for me.Ralph --------------086A52E85C06F48DA7AC1FC9-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 12 09:44:49 2001 f2CFime03334 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:44:43 -0800 Subject: Re: wooden planing forms --------------5DFAEC46B0CF58644A4B353A Dave,I seriously doubt that you will ever get a router set upaccurately enough to cut a groove which tapers .001" perinch. That seems to be the most common rate of depthincrease on forms today. Using the instructions on TomPenrose's page, or in one of the many good rod making books,you can taper the groove with a file or a lathe tool. Inwooden forms, you will probably get it right on your secondor third try. I did!I only use wooden final planing forms for especiallysmall tip sections these days. But they do work okay. AsRalph has mentioned, they are definitely slower. I thinkthe wood has enough "give" in it that it spreads a littleand makes it hard to remove the last few thousandths of aninch. should do a really nice job. Be sure you have surfaces veryflat before cutting the groove with the router and you'll beokay. I made my first binder before building my first rod.But it took me several rods worth of effort to get it tunedcorrectly. In the interim, I bound several bundles ofstrips by hand. The biggest problem for me was that myhands constantly cramped up on me while trying to turn thestrips under pressure. I built a new binder over theweekend. Probably took me less than 8 hours total. AndI've got less than $10 invested in it. A decent bindermakes things much, much simpler. It's possible, in myopinion, to get decent results binding by hand. But I don'twant to do it again. Harry DlRivers wrote: I'm about to attempt my first rod and will build my ownform. Is there any reason a router can't be use to cutthe groove? Also does anyone out there hand bind theirglued up strips? Since I plan on making only a few rods if a binder is a convenience or a requirement. Thanks toall who respondDave --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------5DFAEC46B0CF58644A4B353A Dave, That seems to be the most common rate of depth increase on forms Using the instructions on Tom Penrose's page, or in one of the many good In wooden forms, you will probably get it right on your second or third "give" in it that it spreads a little and makes it hard to remove the lastfew thousandths of an inch. the very flat before cutting the groove with the router and you'll be okay. problem for me was that my hands constantly cramped up on me while trying DlRivers wrote: about only a few rods for myself and as gifts to friends (I hope ) I don't know respondDave --Harry Boyd"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." --------------5DFAEC46B0CF58644A4B353A-- from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Mon Mar 12 09:58:02 2001 f2CFw2e03940 0500 Subject: Say it isn't SO! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0AAE3.6BCBF280 Dear Rick, "Discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. How dare you use that seven-letter word on this list, are you suggestingthat there is plastic in cane? If this is the case be prepared to bediscredited, this secrete can never be let out given what is said about theround plastic boys.Written with tongue in cheek. Take care Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRodmaker ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0AAE3.6BCBF280 Normal0DocumentEmail =0=0 Dear Rick, "Discussing this with my wife again, sheassures me that lignin is considered a 'plastic'. How dare you use that seven-letter word on =thislist, are you suggesting that there is plastic in cane? If this is the =case beprepared to be discredited, this secrete can never be let out given what =issaid about the round plastic boys. Written with tongue in cheek. Take care =Tim. Signature" Upstream =Always, Tim Doughty Rodmaker ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0AAE3.6BCBF280-- from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Mar 12 10:00:55 2001 f2CG0se04229 HAA10215 (5.5.2650.21) "'rmoon@ida.net'" Subject: RE: wooden planing forms Colorado bootstrap has a steel rough planing form for $65. No interest blabla bla...... Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:18 AM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: wooden planing forms John Kenealy wrote: Oops- I assumed he was talking about ROUGH forms!!!! I would only dothe rough stuff on wood- and then go to the steel forms for tapering!!!!!!!!!!!John K. John, I guess I made an assumption as well. If so I apologize. Actually I douse a number of wooden forms myself, but only to hold the strip after it isshaped. I never do any planing on the wooden forms. I made myself a shortadjustable metal roughing form that does a better job for me. Ralph from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon Mar 12 10:53:26 2001 f2CGrPe06630 with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:53:04 -0800 Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance f2CGrPe06631 Hi Olaf, Chris B. and Reed, Thanks very much for the information. My initial post had to do with thebreak in period for each of the silk fly lines you have available. I didn't intendto imply that silk wasn't worth the trouble as I've cast a silk line and amalready sold on it's virtues. from reading your site it sounded like theThebault's break in period was much more significant then the Phoenix. Iunderstood it to be a treatment every hour for the first 20 to 30 hours offishing. I misunderstood and I'm glad I asked the question now. Olaf, pleasepost your impressions of the Thebault line as you use them this year. Iappreciate your feedback. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu"Olaf Borge" 03/11/01 02:41PM >>>Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I have donethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. It floatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float better andlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.com Mail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.net Phone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message----- McDowell Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebault lines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from canerod@mwt.net Mon Mar 12 12:19:10 2001 f2CIJ5e09901 Subject: light tapers I'm looking for some short rod tapers I can't find and was wondering ifanyone would care to post them and any opinions on any or all of them.I've never even heard the Orvis taper mentioned in passing, let alonecritiquing a rod that has actually been cast. By the way there is aBarnes book on e-bay now, (no interest, etc.).The rods are: Payne 95 &96, and Orvis 5'9" Ultra Light. Thank you all for many enjoyable hoursreading and learning, knowledge unavailable anywhere else. This list isgreat! tia. Phil Rundhaugen (see you in Grayrock) from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Mar 12 13:42:29 2001 f2CJgSe13276 Subject: Re: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Hi Tim and all,I'd hate to admit how many strips I've ruined by experomenting and overcooking the living daylights out of them. And once they're spoiled there'sno going back. I've settled on 11 minutes at 350 degrees turning the stripsoften as does Ralph Moon.Ray Gould----- Original Message ----- Subject: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Some great threads on ovens and tempering lately. A lot of thoughtprovoking information but as always if I think too much I get confused. There is no single (or should that read simple) answer to the question Iamgoing to pose since everyone tempers/heat treats differently but heregoes. I built a Cattanach style oven and how long should one heat treat theirstrips? There has been some variance in the times mentioned in previous posts.Someone said they were using their kitchen oven and "baking" for 20minutes,the books seem to say around 7.5 minutes. Maybe the answer can't beexpressed in minutes due to the variance in methods but is there a test oran observation us first timers can use to determine when done? Thanks again for your helpTim from ddeloach@pcisys.net Mon Mar 12 14:29:45 2001 f2CKTie15725 env- from (ddeloach@pcisys.net) Subject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six or seven coats of tung oil. Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and still casts the same. Lots ofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many days of fishing through therain. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. This first rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked and turned tan-ish. Kinda lookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rod is not "fast" but as I saidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years of hard use. Still can lay 50' ona beaver pond without a sound. from setissma@email.msn.com Mon Mar 12 15:22:41 2001 f2CLMee18582 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:22:36 -0800 Subject: Re: binder question/taper request FILETIME=[8FBA0680:01C0AB3A] You can make the cradles with just a hacksaw and a file. Purchase a foot of3" x 3" thin-walled aluminum stock. It is square in cross section, andhollow in the middle. You should be able to find it at any metal supplier.Cut a one inch piece, then cut it down the middle. That will give you two smooth rough edges with sandpaper. The binder will perform better if both cradles are as identical as possible.I learned this the hard way. As for the crank pulley, that probably requires a power tool. You can cut itwith a router, bandsaw, or a hole cutting bit in a drill press. For yourother pulleys, use the ball bearing wheels sold for the bottom of slidingglass patio doors. Available at any hardware store. and metal sleeves over all bolts to maintain an exact distance from thebinder plate. Also, you may need to spend quite a bit of time tuning yourbinder to find the optimal setup. Good luck! Jeff Schaeffer ----- Original Message ----- Subject: binder question/taper request Hello again! I have decided to build a binder! Does anyone have asuggestion on what I should use for the blank cradlesand where I can obtain the right sized wheel for themain crank. I need to know where to buy these things,I do not have the tools necessary to turn my own.Also, a while ago on ebay I saw a Lee Wulf rod basedon the one he used in his bush plane days that was a 6footer he used for salmon fishing. Does anyone havethe taper! Just an interest of mine. Well, progresscontinues on my rod making work area! Thanks for allthe help! Especially to Mac and Winston! Mike =====http://miangler.homestead.com/home.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Mar 12 15:42:02 2001 f2CLg1e19460 Subject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me say that data presented at ourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish is far superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moisture resistance. So I've been using itall along. I can now cite an example of its effectiveness. A friend who hadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in the wilderness of B.C. He had thefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. When he reached camp the firstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out of the case he was carrying itin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 days later floating in a streamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had been immersed for 3days. Heasked me to have a look at it later and I could see no problem with the canebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So I cleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a few years), dipped the rod anothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay to this day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- - Subject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six or seven coats of tung oil. Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and still casts the same. Lots ofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many days of fishing through therain. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. This first rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked and turned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rod is not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years of hard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Mar 12 15:50:41 2001 f2CLoZe19952 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:49:56 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: binder question/taper request Mike, andthey worked fine,dirt cheap,and easy to adjust too. I still use it from time totime!There are pictures, and instructions on www.shawnsbamboopage.eboard.comShawn Mike Janik wrote: Hello again! I have decided to build a binder! Does anyone have asuggestion on what I should use for the blank cradlesand where I can obtain the right sized wheel for themain crank. I need to know where to buy these things,I do not have the tools necessary to turn my own.Also, a while ago on ebay I saw a Lee Wulf rod basedon the one he used in his bush plane days that was a 6footer he used for salmon fishing. Does anyone havethe taper! Just an interest of mine. Well, progresscontinues on my rod making work area! Thanks for allthe help! Especially to Mac and Winston! Mike =====http://miangler.homestead.com/home.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from stpete@netten.net Mon Mar 12 15:52:02 2001Received: from f2CLq1e20100 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:55:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Richard, I tend to agree completely that both moisture removal and tempering areimportant. More than that, the best results most likely occur when theformerprecedes the latter in a controlled process. That's why I heat treat usingthePowell method in my heat gun oven (or as close as I can given the limitationsofmy oven) with the exception that I cut the 375 temperature time to 7 to 10minutes. I do this because I think Mr. Powell may have heat treated entireculms. I heat treat the split strips after flaming, splitting, and roughing thestrips. I have lost more than one batch to overcooking, however. You mustbecareful with smaller rod sections. Here is a post from the archives (Coffey, P., 1998) which explains it all. Rick C. Tue Jan 13 10:10:48 1998From:"Coffey, Patrick W"Subject:heat treating I just finished reading the dissertation on heat treating athttp://home.att.net/~ldcross3/temper.htmand it made me think that the heat treating formula that Walton Powellgave me is probably right on; 250 degrees for 1 1/2-2 hours300 degrees for 1 hour375-400 degrees for 30 minutes his feelings are that the first one to two hours drives out most of themoisture without turning the moisture to steam and rupturing the cellwalls and the next temperature setting and time removes the rest of thewater and starts the chemical changes and the last temperature and timesetting completes the moisture removal, chemical change and color andslightly carbonized the cane.the more I read and try seems to point that Mr. Powell was right intelling me that his heat treating results in a rod that doesn't take aset and ends up with the color of honey and is the right stiffness forthe rods that he builds. I have never had the opportunity to try or fishwith one of Walton Powells rods in that he retired from the businessquite a while ago and I just haven't known anybody who owned one. Readthe dissertation at that web page and see what you think-- not that I'mtrying to open the heat treating can of worms again--but maybe we canlearn something from somebody new and somebody who was in thebusiness Patrick "Richard R. Dutcher" wrote: That is a great question, Tim. I am still a bit confused as to what weare trying to accomplish here. 1. Are we trying to reduce the moisturecontent only, in the cane? Which in my mind would mean using an oven withlower temperatures with exhausted convection air and longer time so as todehydrate the cane.. 2. Are we trying to temper the cane i. e., change thephysical properties by using high temperature? I can see that lowering the moisture content of the cane is a definiteplus in my way of thinking. And, I tend to go along with tempering the cane.The question I have is, are we not talking about two completely separateissues here? It seems to me by going straight to high temperature wouldcause the moisture to boil out there by causing cellular damage. I do notbelieve this would cause a noticeable weakness as much as it would causeaninconsistency in the overall strength of the cane. The moisture trying toescape the cane at high temperature will take the path of least resistancethere by further weakening the natural weak spots in the cane. However,heattreating a dehydrated cane would be more likely to produce an improvedandconsistent rod and the results should be repeatable. Regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message -----From: Tim Wilhelm Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:43 AMSubject: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Some great threads on ovens and tempering lately. A lot of thoughtprovoking information but as always if I think too much I get confused. There is no single (or should that read simple) answer to the question Iamgoing to pose since everyone tempers/heat treats differently but heregoes. I built a Cattanach style oven and how long should one heat treat theirstrips? There has been some variance in the times mentioned in previous posts.Someone said they were using their kitchen oven and "baking" for 20minutes,the books seem to say around 7.5 minutes. Maybe the answer can't beexpressed in minutes due to the variance in methods but is there a testoran observation us first timers can use to determine when done? Thanks again for your helpTim from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Mar 12 16:11:47 2001 f2CMBje20978 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:11:06 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Rattan Grips --------------326B500258228F2AFE6C74D1 Tony or anyone else,do you soak the rattan before winding or what? Is therattan wound over itself or just butted up turn after turn?? I would love tohear adetailed procedure for this.Got some rattan and I'm thinking I might do my Dickerson 6611 gripmaybe????Shawn Tony Miller wrote: Thanks for the all the kind words guys.I will try to answer all thequestions.Firstthe rattan is a 2.25mm chair cane.Second I wrapped it over cork.I triedbalsa andit works,but it is much harder to work with.I hold the ends down withmasking tapeand sewing pins.I think the trick is to glue the end wait till its dry then gluethe rest.I was going for a sort of aged look so I used a alcohollamp to molttherattan. I have seen the kane klassicrattan grip but wanted to do somethingsimilarbut notexactly the same. I think he burns the rattan before he wraps it. Idid itafter. Giving it a similar look but a little different. I was trying to matchthemolted look on my rod.I use spar varnish on my rods, but for the rattangrip(only)Iused a spar urethane. I feel that the grip will get allot ofwear and varnishmightnot hold up over the long haul, on the grip.I did not put the red thread inbetweenbut I might try it next time. All in all it was not an easy task.I experimentedallot. I will be showing this rod at the Southfield show.I used silk wraps. Iknowit is hard to see in the pictures,but did you guys notice the English twistsnakeguides I made?TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.htmlflyfish@defnet.com --------------326B500258228F2AFE6C74D1 Tony or anyone else, do you soak the rattan before winding or what? Is the rattan wound overitself or just butted up turn after turn?? I would love to hear a detailedprocedure for this. thinking I might do my Dickerson 6611 grip maybe???? ShawnTony Miller wrote: Thanks will try to answer all the questions.Firstthe rattan is a 2.25mm chair cane.SecondI wrapped it over cork.Itried balsa and it works,but it is much harder to workwith.Ihold the ends down with masking tape and sewing pins.Ithink the trick is to glue the end wait till its dry then glue therest.Iwas going for a sort of aged look so I used a alcohollampto molt the rattan. I have seen the kane klassicrattangrip but wanted to do something similar but notexactlythe same. I think he burns the rattan before he wraps it. I did it after.Giving it a similar look but a little different. I was trying to matchthe molted look on my rod.Iuse spar varnish on my rods, but for the rattangrip(only)Iused a spar urethane. I feel that the grip will get allotofwearand varnish might not hold up over the long haul, on the grip.I did notput the red thread in between but I might try it next time. All in allit was not an easy task.I experimented allot. I will be showing this rodat the Southfield show.Iused silk wraps. I know it is hard to see in the pictures,butdid you guys notice the English twist snake guides Imade?TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.htmlflyfish@defnet.com --------------326B500258228F2AFE6C74D1-- from pumpkin10@prodigy.net Mon Mar 12 16:24:00 2001 f2CMNxe21593 f2CMNwX250170;Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:23:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Tempering RayWhat brand of polyurethane are you useing, I am using Helmsman sparvarnish, but Thinking about changing to polyurethane,Tony Larson----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me say that data presented atourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish is far superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moisture resistance. So I've been usingitall along. I can now cite an example of its effectiveness. A friend whohadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in the wilderness of B.C. He hadthefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. When he reached camp thefirstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out of the case he was carryingitin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 days later floating in astreamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had been immersed for 3days. Heasked me to have a look at it later and I could see no problem with thecanebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So I cleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a few years), dipped the rodanothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay to this day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- -From: "Don DeLoach" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:29 PMSubject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes maybewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six or seven coats of tung oil.Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and still casts the same. Lotsofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many days of fishing throughtherain. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing andwaterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. This first rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked and turned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rod is not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years of hard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Mar 12 16:32:02 2001 f2CMW1e22011 2001 14:32:03 PST Subject: Re: Tempering tony, i thot helmssman spar was polyurethane. that iswhat i use also. i see now it says urethane. still,isn't that poly? itimothy --- DARLENE URBANSKI wrote:RayWhat brand of polyurethane are you useing, I amusing Helmsman sparvarnish, but Thinking about changing topolyurethane,Tony Larson----- Original Message -----From: Ray Gould Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:41 PMSubject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me saythat data presented atourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish isfar superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moistureresistance. So I've been usingitall along. I can now cite an example of itseffectiveness. A friend whohadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in thewilderness of B.C. He hadthefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. Whenhe reached camp thefirstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out ofthe case he was carryingitin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 dayslater floating in astreamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had beenimmersed for 3days. Heasked me to have a look at it later and I couldsee no problem with thecanebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So Icleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a fewyears), dipped the rodanothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay tothis day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- -From: "Don DeLoach" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:29 PMSubject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough toprevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern aboutwaterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six orseven coats of tung oil.Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and stillcasts the same. Lots ofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many daysof fishing through therain. It would be worth knowing the extent to whichcolor change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changesrelated to flexing andwaterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. Thisfirst rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked andturned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rodis not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years ofhard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from jvswan@earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 16:46:47 2001 f2CMkke22812 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Tempering Tony, Minwax makes a Helmsman brand spar urethane that I have used to refinish acouple of rods. It is perhaps better than typical furniture gradepolyurethane because it also protects against UV damage. Not that anyonewould leave a nice bamboo rod outside in the bright sunlight for any lengthof time... It is not as clear, though. Has a bit of a tint to it whichwill show up on a blonde rod but not on rods with any kind of color. Jason Swan From: "DARLENE URBANSKI" Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:10:55 -0600 Cc: Subject: Re: Tempering RayWhat brand of polyurethane are you useing, I am using Helmsman sparvarnish, but Thinking about changing to polyurethane,Tony Larson----- Original Message -----From: Ray Gould Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:41 PMSubject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me say that data presented atourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish is far superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moisture resistance. So I've been usingitall along. I can now cite an example of its effectiveness. A friend whohadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in the wilderness of B.C. He hadthefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. When he reached camp thefirstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out of the case he was carryingitin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 days later floating in astreamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had been immersed for 3days.Heasked me to have a look at it later and I could see no problem with thecanebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So I cleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a few years), dipped the rodanothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay to this day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- -From: "Don DeLoach" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:29 PMSubject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes maybewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six or seven coats of tung oil.Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and still casts the same. Lotsofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many days of fishing throughtherain. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing andwaterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. This first rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked and turned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rod is not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years of hard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. from pumpkin10@prodigy.net Mon Mar 12 17:10:37 2001 f2CNAae23773 f2CNAZU127678;Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:10:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Tempering TimYour right my can says urethane also, not polyurethane i do not knowthe difference, I usedMcCloskey man o war marine spar varnish on my first10rods, Helmsman on last two, McCloskey gives a better looking finish to me,Still want to try a good polyurethane,Thanks Tony Larson----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tempering tony, i thot helmssman spar was polyurethane. that iswhat i use also. i see now it says urethane. still,isn't that poly? itimothy --- DARLENE URBANSKI wrote:RayWhat brand of polyurethane are you useing, I amusing Helmsman sparvarnish, but Thinking about changing topolyurethane,Tony Larson----- Original Message -----From: Ray Gould Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:41 PMSubject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me saythat data presented atourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish isfar superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moistureresistance. So I've been usingitall along. I can now cite an example of itseffectiveness. A friend whohadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in thewilderness of B.C. He hadthefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. Whenhe reached camp thefirstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out ofthe case he was carryingitin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 dayslater floating in astreamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had beenimmersed for 3days. Heasked me to have a look at it later and I couldsee no problem with thecanebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So Icleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a fewyears), dipped the rodanothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay tothis day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- -From: "Don DeLoach" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:29 PMSubject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough toprevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern aboutwaterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six orseven coats of tung oil.Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and stillcasts the same. Lots ofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many daysof fishing through therain. It would be worth knowing the extent to whichcolor change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changesrelated to flexing andwaterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. Thisfirst rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked andturned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rodis not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years ofhard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Mar 12 17:14:15 2001 f2CNEEe23971 Subject: Southfeild Show This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0AABB.4B7A81E0 I'd like to say thanks to all the guys from list whostopped by my booth this weekend at the show.Why didn't you guys all buy a rod? HA HA LOLI enjoyed meeting all of you.Hope to see you all soon at the next event, hopefully in Grayling. I'm =gonna have some pictures of the show on mysite in a week or so. I forgot to take a picture of everyone.I was so involved with the show. But I managed to catch a few of you =guys. Thanks to all of you who gave me a few trade secrets and rod parts = Tony Miller ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0AABB.4B7A81E0 I'd like to say thanks to all the guys = whostopped by my booth this weekend atthe = show.Why didn't you guys all buy a rod? HA = LOLI enjoyed meeting all of =you.Hope to see you all soon at the next = mysite in a week or so. I forgot to take = everyone.I was so involved with the show. But I = catch a few of you guys. Thanks to all of you who gave me a few trade = and rod parts (you know who you are). Sincerely TonyMiller ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0AABB.4B7A81E0-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 12 18:18:25 2001 f2D0IOe25263 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:18:20 -0800 Subject: Re: Rattan Grips Shawn,Here's a pretty thorough summary of the way Al Medvedmakes these grips.http://www.curro.net/srg2000/medved.html My thanks to Charlie Curro for putting this together. Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: do you soak the rattan before winding or what? Is therattan wound over itself or just butted up turn afterturn?? I would love to hear a detailed procedure for this. Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from jojo@ipa.net Mon Mar 12 18:42:48 2001 f2D0gke25823 Subject: Re: Tempering - Long Having considered what little evidence exists, and drawing upon my ownexperiences, the following occurs to me based upon my own observations. 1. Moisture removal from the bamboo, while desirable, is but a sideeffect to the heat treating process and is not the whole point. 2. We bend, press, cajole, and otherwise cause the strips to conform toour own desires of straightness and flatness. In so doing we have causedwhat essentially amount to stress risers throughout the strip. By roughplaning, tightly binding, and heat treating it seems that what we are doingis allowing the cane to stress relieve itself along the linear plane inaccordance with the bound bundle. I've noticed that if I do all that I canto get the bound bundle as straight as I can, wonder of wonders I havestraight strips ready for final planing. I get very little node reversalduring the heat treating process, and suppose this is due to the methodemployed for pressing them. 3. Given that Don Andersen's findings regarding the properties thatreally matter, i.e., the action of the finished strip, demonstrate that moreis not better, in fact less is best, it seems that there should be anoptimum time/temp that allows the strips max. moisture removal, enoughtime to stress relieve, and to somewhat shrink on the cellular level,without causing the strips to become too brittle, orto not have enough memory and elasticity. 4. Lloyd Cross' treatise on the heat treating of bamboo leaves littledoubt that higher temp/shorter time results in more moisture and volatileoil removal, andhigher carbonization. His testing did not focus on the issue of effect onthe action of the strip, as did Don Andersen's. There still remains thequestion of what, ifany, damage might have been done to the strip by the abrupt removal of themoisture at higher temps. 5. I have no idea at what temperature the lignin actually becomesplastic, but amquite sure it is above, or right around 325Ÿ. Yes, the strips will work attemperatures below this, but I bet you may have noticed that your nodeswantto pop back on you, and your dog legs want to return to their originalposition. I can readily tell by looking at the strips reaction to beingpressed whether I have sufficiently heated it. 6. It is readily noticed that raw cane planes much easier, in long smoothcurls, than does a strip at, say 375Ÿ for 14 minutes. I do believe that dueto some sort of re-polarization, the clinging of the curls to the plane isin fact static in origin. 7. I have recently played with different exposure times to bundledstrips. The highest exposure time resulted in the curls coming off in smallbroken chips, with the sound quite like that of a large zipper, while theshorter exposure strips planed nearly as well as raw cane.Interesting that the higher exposed strips, while seeming to have a muchstiffer nature, i.e. a higher tensile and compressive strength, in fact donot have thefatigue resistance of the lower exposed strips. This would seem to be inaccordance with Don's findings. There seems to be no benefit to the longerexposure times, with the possible exception of greater moisture removal,andpossibly causing a reduction in the absorbent capabilities of the strips.This, however, would seem to come at a price. I didn't conduct any sort ofscientific analysis that could be qualified but am relying solely on my ownobservation. 8. Recently I soaked some strips overnight in water prior tostraightening, as is my practice. I pressed the nodes, straightened thekinks, then decided to see what might happen upon putting them back in thewater overnight. They appeared to remain unchanged. I reheated the nodestosee if they would rebound, and sure enough they did but not to their formerstate. I was able to easily repress them back to where I had them before.They stayed in position from then on, even through the heat treatingprocess. So, my conclusion is that the whole purpose of heat treating is to allow thecane to stress relieve, or align, itself along the linear plane, and as adesired sidebenefit the removal of moisture. Perhaps some irreversible change to thecellular structure in order to reduce the percentage of adsorption is alsodesirable. It will be interesting to read the findingsof John Bokstrom, and how, or if, they correlate to those of Don Andersen.Assuming, it just seems to me that there is an optimum level oftemperature/time at which we should be looking. The chemistry is intriguing,as is the overall effect of change experienced in the heat treating, but thepart that counts, the strip's moisture content, its resistance toadsorption, its action and resistance to set, is what is paramount, Ibelieve. It just may be that there has to be some compromise of fatigueresistance in order to accommodate a lower moisture content, and a lesseradsorption rate.Your thoughts? M-D from rafick@3riversweb.net Mon Mar 12 18:45:30 2001 f2D0jTe26001 0000 Subject: e-mail Hello All Would someone please point me to Dennis Bertram's e-mail, or Dennis, if yourthere would you e-mail me. ThanksRick from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Mar 12 18:57:26 2001 f2D0vOe26373 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:30:33 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Rattan Grips Harry, Tony, and all,thanks. That clarifies things allot!Shawn Harry Boyd wrote: Shawn,Here's a pretty thorough summary of the way Al Medvedmakes these grips.http://www.curro.net/srg2000/medved.html My thanks to Charlie Curro for putting this together. Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: do you soak the rattan before winding or what? Is therattan wound over itself or just butted up turn afterturn?? I would love to hear a detailed procedure for this. Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from harms1@pa.net Mon Mar 12 19:04:25 2001 f2D14Oe26682 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:04:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Tempering All, Moisture in cane (as in wood) is of two kinds, "bound" water and "free"water. The former is trapped, in a sense, within the cell structure and isalso called "inter-cellular" moisture. The latter is distributed freelybetween the cells and is called "intra-cellular" moisture. Heat treating the cane will drive out both types of moisture, as it willalso alter the nature of the resins (in some fashion we are not entirelycertain of) surrounding the dryed-out cells. The value of heat treating ourcane is, then, is that once the bound moisture is driven from theinter-cellular structures, it cannot be re-absorbed at some later date, asthe cell structure itself has been toughened (perhaps polymerized-- or wemight say, cross-linked). On the other hand, intra-cellular moisture ("freewater") will indeed re-enter the cane upon every available opportunity. Agood dunking in the water, fishing in the rain, and, yes, even changes inambient humidy will all provide occasions for the cane to re-absorb freemoisture. Apart from aesthetic reasons, this is why we apply a good finish to ourrods. That said, we should also note that there is not a finishing materialavailable in God's world that can prevent moisture (water vapor or humidity) from passing through that film. But this works both ways, folks. Just asmoisture can enter a varnished rod on its own, so will it leave on its ownwhen ambient humidity allows for it to do so. We can dry a rod out asodden rod once again and restore its action by slowly removing the "freemoisture." As to "protection," then, we have to realize that this can never be morethan a relative term. We can have pretty good protection against moisturemigration, and we can have very little protection. What we CANNOT have,however, is anything even vaguely approaching a "seal". As it happens, the best protection comes from two coats of a highpolyurethane (additional coats add little). Next best is three coats ofslightly thinned, alkyd, spar varnish. Third in line (but not very close tothe first two), come the various "rubbing oils," with tung providing betterprotection than linseed. Actually, these rubbing-oil finishes are not pureoils at all, but are already polymerized in some fashion, and also maycontain dryers, resins or alkyds). Offering the very least protection(indeed, nearly negligible) are the pure oil finishes. Lastly, we need to put another myth to rest. Wax adds nothing as far aspreventing the passage of water vapor is concerned. Sorry, folks. Wax willprotect your finish, to be sure, and will help to keep your rod in nicecondition, but it does nothing to help with potential moisture migration. So, the bottom line is that any cane rod is vulnerable to becoming "loggy" from built-up moisture. After choosing our finish, the only truly importantcontribution we can make is to be certain that we take care of our rods.Avoid using the same rod repeatedly; dry your rods thoroughly after use;never, never store a rod in its tube, and; do not allow a rod to remainexposed to humid conditions for long periods of time. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with the importanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heat tempering reducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition to the factthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard stories of rodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this was becausetheywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough related that agiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree of tempering(orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do with sugars inthebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes. So it'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause much colorchangecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heating thatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this isaddressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with the list awiseold saying - hard won ignorance is the most persistent kind. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:02 PM Cc: Don & Sandy Andersen; rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much oftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moistureasitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture contenttoagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood.Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's been heatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and thatis"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) the USForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually see inthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nicecountrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down thetrackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow I gotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the point isheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically to thecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you as thescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hard toplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection compared witha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as itcouldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igiveexpress permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Mon Mar 12 20:01:22 2001 f2D21Ke27571 Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:59:13 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: wooden planing forms Hi Dave,I've hand bound my rods so far and had no problem other than amild spiral twist to the blank on the first couple. This was easilycorrected before the glue set up and, by being careful, I haven't had theproblem since. I wouldn't mind building a two string, counter-rotatingbinder but it'll have to wait until I've completed another counter-rotatinggadget I'm working on. Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: wooden planing forms I'm about to attempt my first rod and will build my own form. Is there anyreason a router can't be use to cut the groove? Also does anyone out therehand bind their glued up strips? Since I plan on making only a few rods formyself and as gifts to friends (I hope ) I don't know if a binder is aconvenience or a requirement. Thanks to all who respondDave from ddeloach@pcisys.net Mon Mar 12 20:24:29 2001 f2D2OSe28121 env- from (ddeloach@pcisys.net) Subject: Tung vs Spar A query:Has anyone done an empirical test of two identical rods, same taper andfromthe same culm, the only difference being one is oil rubbed and onevarnished?I'd be interested to know if the oiled rod seems slower or if over anappreciable amt of time it has slowed or otherwise suffered ill effects fromnot being "sealed" by a varnish or poly finish. Curious Don ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tempering All, Moisture in cane (as in wood) is of two kinds, "bound" water and "free"water. The former is trapped, in a sense, within the cell structure andisalso called "inter-cellular" moisture. The latter is distributed freelybetween the cells and is called "intra-cellular" moisture. Heat treating the cane will drive out both types of moisture, as it willalso alter the nature of the resins (in some fashion we are not entirelycertain of) surrounding the dryed-out cells. The value of heat treatingourcane is, then, is that once the bound moisture is driven from theinter-cellular structures, it cannot be re-absorbed at some later date,asthe cell structure itself has been toughened (perhaps polymerized--or wemight say, cross-linked). On the other hand, intra-cellular moisture("freewater") will indeed re-enter the cane upon every available opportunity. Agood dunking in the water, fishing in the rain, and, yes, even changes inambient humidy will all provide occasions for the cane to re-absorb freemoisture. Apart from aesthetic reasons, this is why we apply a good finish to ourrods. That said, we should also note that there is not a finishingmaterialavailable in God's world that can prevent moisture (water vapor orhumidity) from passing through that film. But this works both ways, folks. Just asmoisture can enter a varnished rod on its own, so will it leave on its ownwhen ambient humidity allows for it to do so. We can dry a rod out asodden rod once again and restore its action by slowly removing the "freemoisture." As to "protection," then, we have to realize that this can never be morethan a relative term. We can have pretty good protection againstmoisturemigration, and we can have very little protection. What we CANNOT have,however, is anything even vaguely approaching a "seal". As it happens, the best protection comes from two coats of a highpolyurethane (additional coats add little). Next best is three coats ofslightly thinned, alkyd, spar varnish. Third in line (but not very closetothe first two), come the various "rubbing oils," with tung providingbetterprotection than linseed. Actually, these rubbing-oil finishes are notpureoils at all, but are already polymerized in some fashion, and also maycontain dryers, resins or alkyds). Offering the very least protection(indeed, nearly negligible) are the pure oil finishes. Lastly, we need to put another myth to rest. Wax adds nothing as far aspreventing the passage of water vapor is concerned. Sorry, folks. Waxwillprotect your finish, to be sure, and will help to keep your rod in nicecondition, but it does nothing to help with potential moisture migration. So, the bottom line is that any cane rod is vulnerable to becoming "loggy" from built-up moisture. After choosing our finish, the only trulyimportantcontribution we can make is to be certain that we take care of our rods.Avoid using the same rod repeatedly; dry your rods thoroughly after use;never, never store a rod in its tube, and; do not allow a rod to remainexposed to humid conditions for long periods of time. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Kling, Barry W." Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 8:24 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with theimportanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heat temperingreducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition to thefactthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard stories of rodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this wasbecausetheywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough related that agiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree of tempering(orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do with sugars inthebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes. So it'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause much colorchangecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heating thatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this isaddressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with the list awiseold saying - hard won ignorance is the most persistent kind. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:02 PM Cc: Don & Sandy Andersen; rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much oftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as muchmoistureasitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture contenttoagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood hasbeenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood.Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's beenheatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and thatis"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) theUSForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually seeinthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Land> >which is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nicecountrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and letallthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down thetrackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow Igotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few thingslikespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the pointisheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared partisground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinoussmellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically tothecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it'saone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you asthescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hardtoplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seemtohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection comparedwitha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as itcouldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right lawsIgiveexpress permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from horsesho@ptd.net Mon Mar 12 20:27:17 2001 f2D2RGe28301 0000 0000 Subject: Re: light tapers Phillip, The Orvis 5/9 Utralite taper follows. This along with the 5'Mitey-Mite are my favorite Orvis tapers(but I'm a small rod guy). They bothare a joy to cast. The 5/9 has a med. to med./slow action which is nice ina short rod.Interesting that orvis combined the tip section of a 61/2'Deluxe with the butt of a 5' Mitey-Mite to come up with the 5/9 Ultralite.So the tip of this rod is 39 3/4" and the butt 30 3/4". Good Luck, MartyOrvis 5/9 Ultralite 5'9" #3/40 .075"05 .09210 .10515 .11720 .13025 .13530 .14035 .15040 .16245 .18850 .20355 .22460 .24565 .24570 .245 Philip Rundhaugen wrote: I'm looking for some short rod tapers I can't find and was wondering ifanyone would care to post them and any opinions on any or all of them.I've never even heard the Orvis taper mentioned in passing, let alonecritiquing a rod that has actually been cast. By the way there is aBarnes book on e-bay now, (no interest, etc.).The rods are: Payne 95 &96, and Orvis 5'9" Ultra Light. Thank you all for many enjoyable hoursreading and learning, knowledge unavailable anywhere else. This list isgreat! tia. Phil Rundhaugen (see you in Grayrock) from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Mar 12 20:32:24 2001 f2D2WOe28559 rodmakers Subject: Re: Tung vs Spar Don,If they are both waxed often, I'll bet you would find no difference. Just asimple coat of wax will do more than any varnish, IMHO, (and from data onthesubject that this list has seen, occasionally).Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Don DeLoach wrote: A query:Has anyone done an empirical test of two identical rods, same taper andfromthe same culm, the only difference being one is oil rubbed and onevarnished?I'd be interested to know if the oiled rod seems slower or if over anappreciable amt of time it has slowed or otherwise suffered ill effectsfromnot being "sealed" by a varnish or poly finish. Curious Don -- from ddeloach@pcisys.net Mon Mar 12 20:47:31 2001 f2D2lUe28942 env- from (ddeloach@pcisys.net) Subject: Re: Tung vs Spar What kind of wax, how often, etc? I've never felt the need to wax my rods.I always felt the dry climate of Colorado took care of moisture protectionautomatically (of course I wipe down my rods thoroughly before tubing). If they are both waxed often, I'll bet you would find no difference.Just asimple coat of wax will do more than any varnish, IMHO, (and from data onthe from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Mar 12 20:54:56 2001 f2D2ste29356 Subject: Re: Tung vs Spar avyoung@iinet.net.au In a message dated 3/13/1 2:25:25 AM, ddeloach@pcisys.net writes: Don - What Bill has said is exactly correct, IMHO. An oil finished rod will exchange moisture with the air faster than a varnished one. If you take the rods to Louisiana, the oil finished rod will get slow faster, but they will eventually be the same. If you take the rods to the desert, the oil finished rod will become quicker, but the varnished rod will eventually catch up.I also feel that heat treating reduces the ability of cane to hold moisture. I did some experiments years ago, but the results were not as dramatic as those Don mentioned, with reductions in the 5% range. I got 2-3%, which is still fairly significant. It took about 2 months after heat treatment for the moisture content to stabilize. It would be interesting to see if there really is an optimum heat treat. Personally, I doubt it, based on working on a lot of great old rods that were treated in a bunch of different ways, but I'm willing to listen. from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Mar 12 21:02:14 2001 f2D32De29703 Subject: Re: Rattan Grips This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C0AB26.E2E5ECC0 Hi to all,Regarding the rattan grips: yes I soak the rattan before winding it on =and butt the wraps one against the next. There's a book titled "The =Caners Handbook" which may be helpful in a general way as it is really =aimed at doing chairs and wicker furniture.Ray Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:14 PMSubject: Re: Rattan Grips do you soak the rattan before winding =or what? Is the rattan wound over itself or just butted up turn after = Got some rattan and I'm thinking I might do my Dickerson 6611 = = Thanks for the all the kind words guys.I will try to answer all the =questions.First the rattan is a 2.25mm chair cane.Second I wrapped it =over cork.I tried balsa and it works,but it is much harder to work =with.I hold the ends down with masking tape and sewing pins.I think the =trick is to glue the end wait till its dry then glue the rest.I was =going for a sort of aged look so I used a alcohollamp to molt the =rattan. I have seen the kane klassicrattan grip but wanted to do =something similar but notexactly the same. I think he burns the rattan =before he wraps it. I did it after. Giving it a similar look but a =little different. I was trying to match the molted look on my rod.I use =spar varnish on my rods, but for the rattan grip(only)I used a spar =urethane. I feel that the grip will get allot ofwear and varnish might =not hold up over the long haul, on the grip.I did not put the red thread =in between but I might try it next time. All in all it was not an easy =task.I experimented allot. I will be showing this rod at the Southfield =show.I used silk wraps. I know it is hard to see in the pictures,but did =you guys notice the English twist snake guides I made?Tony =Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.htmlflyfish@defnet.com ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C0AB26.E2E5ECC0 Hi to all,Regarding the rattan grips: yes I soak = before winding it on and butt the wraps one against the next. There's a = titled "The Caners Handbook" which may be helpful in a general way as it = really aimed at doing chairs and wicker furniture.Ray ----- Original Message ----- Shawn Pineo Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 = PMSubject: Re: Rattan Grips = do you soak the rattan before winding or what? Is the rattan wound = or just butted up turn after turn?? I would love to hear a detailed = = Thanks for the all the kind words= guys.I will try to= the questions.First = balsa and it works,but it is much harder to work =with.I hold the ends down with masking tape = pins.I think the = glue the end wait till its dry then glue the =rest.I was going for a sort of aged look so = alcohollamp tomolt = notexactly the = burns the rattan before he wraps it. I did it after. Giving it a = look but a little different. I was trying to match the molted look = rod.I use spar = rods, but for the rattan grip(only)I used a spar urethane. I feel that the grip will get = ofwear andvarnish = hold up over the long haul, on the grip.I did not put the red thread = between but I might try it next time. All in all it was not an easy = show.I used silk= Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.htmlflyfish@defnet.com ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C0AB26.E2E5ECC0-- from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Mar 12 21:05:33 2001 f2D35Ve29876 Subject: Re: Tung vs Spar Don,I use Butcher's Wax (bowling alley grade), others swear by Bri-Wax orRenaissance... and Wayne has his own recipe.I only apply wax once a month or so for rods I'm fishing often. BTW, wax isalso good protection for the varnish against DEET.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Don DeLoach wrote: What kind of wax, how often, etc? I've never felt the need to wax my rods.I always felt the dry climate of Colorado took care of moisture protectionautomatically (of course I wipe down my rods thoroughly before tubing). If they are both waxed often, I'll bet you would find no difference.Just asimple coat of wax will do more than any varnish, IMHO, (and from dataonthe -- from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Mar 12 21:22:42 2001 f2D3Mfe00377 Subject: Re: Tempering - Long Hi to all,The conclusion that the purpose of heat treating is to stress relieve thecane is very important and one that should not be overlooked. I notice thatafter a bound set of strips are removed from the oven and then allowed tocool in a straight position that they will almost always be quite straightwhen the binding twine is removed.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tempering - Long Having considered what little evidence exists, and drawing upon my ownexperiences, the following occurs to me based upon my own observations. 1. Moisture removal from the bamboo, while desirable, is but a sideeffect to the heat treating process and is not the whole point. 2. We bend, press, cajole, and otherwise cause the strips to conform toour own desires of straightness and flatness. In so doing we have causedwhat essentially amount to stress risers throughout the strip. By roughplaning, tightly binding, and heat treating it seems that what we aredoingis allowing the cane to stress relieve itself along the linear plane inaccordance with the bound bundle. I've noticed that if I do all that I canto get the bound bundle as straight as I can, wonder of wonders I havestraight strips ready for final planing. I get very little node reversalduring the heat treating process, and suppose this is due to the methodemployed for pressing them. 3. Given that Don Andersen's findings regarding the properties thatreally matter, i.e., the action of the finished strip, demonstrate thatmoreis not better, in fact less is best, it seems that there should be anoptimum time/temp that allows the strips max. moisture removal, enoughtime to stress relieve, and to somewhat shrink on the cellular level,without causing the strips to become too brittle, orto not have enough memory and elasticity. 4. Lloyd Cross' treatise on the heat treating of bamboo leaves littledoubt that higher temp/shorter time results in more moisture and volatileoil removal, andhigher carbonization. His testing did not focus on the issue of effect onthe action of the strip, as did Don Andersen's. There still remains thequestion of what, ifany, damage might have been done to the strip by the abrupt removal ofthemoisture at higher temps. 5. I have no idea at what temperature the lignin actually becomesplastic, but amquite sure it is above, or right around 325Ÿ. Yes, the strips will work attemperatures below this, but I bet you may have noticed that your nodeswantto pop back on you, and your dog legs want to return to their originalposition. I can readily tell by looking at the strips reaction to beingpressed whether I have sufficiently heated it. 6. It is readily noticed that raw cane planes much easier, in longsmoothcurls, than does a strip at, say 375Ÿ for 14 minutes. I do believe thatdueto some sort of re-polarization, the clinging of the curls to the plane isin fact static in origin. 7. I have recently played with different exposure times to bundledstrips. The highest exposure time resulted in the curls coming off insmallbroken chips, with the sound quite like that of a large zipper, while theshorter exposure strips planed nearly as well as raw cane.Interesting that the higher exposed strips, while seeming to have a muchstiffer nature, i.e. a higher tensile and compressive strength, in fact donot have thefatigue resistance of the lower exposed strips. This would seem to be inaccordance with Don's findings. There seems to be no benefit to the longerexposure times, with the possible exception of greater moisture removal,andpossibly causing a reduction in the absorbent capabilities of the strips.This, however, would seem to come at a price. I didn't conduct any sort ofscientific analysis that could be qualified but am relying solely on myownobservation. 8. Recently I soaked some strips overnight in water prior tostraightening, as is my practice. I pressed the nodes, straightened thekinks, then decided to see what might happen upon putting them back inthewater overnight. They appeared to remain unchanged. I reheated the nodestosee if they would rebound, and sure enough they did but not to theirformerstate. I was able to easily repress them back to where I had them before.They stayed in position from then on, even through the heat treatingprocess. So, my conclusion is that the whole purpose of heat treating is to allowthecane to stress relieve, or align, itself along the linear plane, and as adesired sidebenefit the removal of moisture. Perhaps some irreversible change to thecellular structure in order to reduce the percentage of adsorption is alsodesirable. It will be interesting to read the findingsof John Bokstrom, and how, or if, they correlate to those of Don Andersen.Assuming, it just seems to me that there is an optimum level oftemperature/time at which we should be looking. The chemistry isintriguing,as is the overall effect of change experienced in the heat treating, butthepart that counts, the strip's moisture content, its resistance toadsorption, its action and resistance to set, is what is paramount, Ibelieve. It just may be that there has to be some compromise of fatigueresistance in order to accommodate a lower moisture content, and alesseradsorption rate.Your thoughts? M-D from djk762@earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 21:54:08 2001 f2D3s7e01079 TAA28782 Subject: Tung oil and ? Rodmakers- Is pure tung oil used on hand-rubbed rods?What recipes are you hand rubbed guys using?Does anyone know what the Powell's and Tony Maslan used on their rods?I have cast some Maslan E.C. Powells that have been fished hard.They are straight and fast. -David Kashuba. from channer@frontier.net Tue Mar 13 07:00:09 2001 f2DD08e06984 Subject: Anton Udwary Anton;If you are on this list, please e-mail me.John from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Mar 13 13:37:59 2001 f2DJbwe20883 2001 11:38:00 PST Subject: slow day, eh?! slow day ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from caneman@clnk.com Tue Mar 13 13:48:05 2001 f2DJm4e21498 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: slow day, eh?! yup... lol -----Original Message----- Subject: slow day, eh?! slow day ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from jmpio@nhbm.com Tue Mar 13 14:30:36 2001 f2DKUZe23369 Subject: Binder Construction Picked up some hardware today to attempt construction of a Garrison- stylebinder. I've read Chris Bogart's article on tuning the binder, and had afew questions. 1. Is anyone aware of any other on-line articles or FAQs on binderconstruction? 2. If I understand correctly, and this makes sense to me, the bottom of therod holders and all of the pulleys/guides should be in the same plane. Isthis correct? 3. Overall size of the binder seems to be primarily a matter of personalpreference, and perhaps a slight matter of ease of use in that a longerassembly will allow one to put rod holders farther out. Any other factorsto consider in deciding on size? 4. The current consensus seems to be that nylon cord is a reasonablechoice Thanks in advance. JamesP from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Mar 13 15:26:10 2001 (may be forged)) f2DLQAe25604 (5.5.2653.19) rodmakers Subject: RE: Tempering Ray -- With all respect for your tremendous knowledge of bamboo rods....this is agood example of the way anecdotes often lead us to the things we alreadybelieved. Some of us have suggested that well tempered bamboo doesn'tneedmuch protection from moisture because it won't absorb much. I'd even saythat varnish (especially after being fished for a few years) can't providereal protection from long term exposure to moisture (like living in a humidclimate or being in the water for a few days). Suppose for a moment I'mcorrect (odd as that may seem....). You would have had the very same result.Your experience proved that the rod didn't suffer from being in the water,but doesn't speak to whether the varnish kept the water out or whether thevarnish failed (to some degree) but it didn't matter because the bamboodidn't absorb much. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me say that data presented at ourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish is far superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moisture resistance. So I've been using itall along. I can now cite an example of its effectiveness. A friend who hadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in the wilderness of B.C. He had thefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. When he reached camp the firstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out of the case he was carrying itin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 days later floating in a streamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had been immersed for 3days. Heasked me to have a look at it later and I could see no problem with the canebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So I cleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a few years), dipped the rod anothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay to this day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- - Subject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six or seven coats of tung oil. Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and still casts the same. Lots ofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many days of fishing through therain. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. This first rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked and turned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rod is not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years of hard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. from stpete@netten.net Tue Mar 13 15:49:01 2001 f2DLmxe26611 Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:52:25 -0600 rodmakers Subject: Re: Tempering - DISCLAIMER Barring some earth shattering news or information about heat treating andtempering cane, this will be my final post on the subject for a while - especially as you now know all that I have ever come up with on the subject. BUT - lest some unfortunate soul be further misguided by anything which Imighthave intended to say, let me clarify: I said that well-tempered cane will most likely never absorb AS MUCH wateras itwould prior to tempering. I DID NOT say that tempered cane would notabsorbany water. There is a huge difference. Do not think that tempered caneneedsno moisture protection. I believe that would be a huge mistake. Water canALWAYS find a way in to almost every material - especially ones which wouldsustain the most damage from it. Rick C. "Kling, Barry W." wrote: Ray -- With all respect for your tremendous knowledge of bamboo rods....this is agood example of the way anecdotes often lead us to the things we alreadybelieved. Some of us have suggested that well tempered bamboo doesn'tneedmuch protection from moisture because it won't absorb much. I'd even saythat varnish (especially after being fished for a few years) can't providereal protection from long term exposure to moisture (like living in a humidclimate or being in the water for a few days). Suppose for a moment I'mcorrect (odd as that may seem....). You would have had the very sameresult.Your experience proved that the rod didn't suffer from being in the water,but doesn't speak to whether the varnish kept the water out or whetherthevarnish failed (to some degree) but it didn't matter because the bamboodidn't absorb much. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me say that data presented atourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish is far superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moisture resistance. So I've been using itall along. I can now cite an example of its effectiveness. A friend who hadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in the wilderness of B.C. He hadthefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. When he reached camp thefirstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out of the case he was carryingitin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 days later floating in a streamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had been immersed for 3days. Heasked me to have a look at it later and I could see no problem with the canebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So I cleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a few years), dipped the rod anothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay to this day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- -From: "Don DeLoach" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:29 PMSubject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes maybewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six or seven coats of tung oil. Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and still casts the same. Lotsofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many days of fishing throughtherain. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing andwaterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. This first rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked and turned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rod is not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years of hard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Mar 13 15:49:48 2001 (may be forged)) f2DLnle26774 (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Tempering Bill -- I appreciate what you say about no varnish being truly waterproof for long.I'm sure you're right that tempered cane re-absorbs some water, no matterwhat the coating. What I'm not convinced of is whether this matters - -whether a well tempered rod actually changes in action due to this kind ofabsorption/redrying. So far I haven't seen that. I recently fished with unvarnished rods (2 different rods of very differentlengths, varnish on wraps only) in various states of moistness. I fishedwith them soon after varnishing the wraps and then hanging them in a dryingcloset over night at 160 deg F. I got them wet while fishing in an all dayrain. I dried them out again in the drying closet. I let them sit in a moistmidwestern basement for a few weeks. Through all these changes I couldn'ttell any gross difference in action, though of course there may have beenslight differences measurable in a lab. They were made from bambootempered onthe wraps. I'm not saying there aren't any rods that soften due to moisture and returnto better action when dried. I've read credible accounts of such things. Butso far my experience suggests this may not have been due to a bad finish,but perhaps to incompletely tempered bamboo. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Tempering All, Moisture in cane (as in wood) is of two kinds, "bound" water and "free"water. The former is trapped, in a sense, within the cell structure and isalso called "inter-cellular" moisture. The latter is distributed freelybetween the cells and is called "intra-cellular" moisture. Heat treating the cane will drive out both types of moisture, as it willalso alter the nature of the resins (in some fashion we are not entirelycertain of) surrounding the dryed-out cells. The value of heat treating ourcane is, then, is that once the bound moisture is driven from theinter-cellular structures, it cannot be re-absorbed at some later date, asthe cell structure itself has been toughened (perhaps polymerized-- or wemight say, cross-linked). On the other hand, intra-cellular moisture ("freewater") will indeed re-enter the cane upon every available opportunity. Agood dunking in the water, fishing in the rain, and, yes, even changes inambient humidy will all provide occasions for the cane to re-absorb freemoisture. Apart from aesthetic reasons, this is why we apply a good finish to ourrods. That said, we should also note that there is not a finishing materialavailable in God's world that can prevent moisture (water vapor or humidity) from passing through that film. But this works both ways, folks. Just asmoisture can enter a varnished rod on its own, so will it leave on its ownwhen ambient humidity allows for it to do so. We can dry a rod out asodden rod once again and restore its action by slowly removing the "freemoisture." As to "protection," then, we have to realize that this can never be morethan a relative term. We can have pretty good protection against moisturemigration, and we can have very little protection. What we CANNOT have,however, is anything even vaguely approaching a "seal". As it happens, the best protection comes from two coats of a highpolyurethane (additional coats add little). Next best is three coats ofslightly thinned, alkyd, spar varnish. Third in line (but not very close tothe first two), come the various "rubbing oils," with tung providing betterprotection than linseed. Actually, these rubbing-oil finishes are not pureoils at all, but are already polymerized in some fashion, and also maycontain dryers, resins or alkyds). Offering the very least protection(indeed, nearly negligible) are the pure oil finishes. Lastly, we need to put another myth to rest. Wax adds nothing as far aspreventing the passage of water vapor is concerned. Sorry, folks. Wax willprotect your finish, to be sure, and will help to keep your rod in nicecondition, but it does nothing to help with potential moisture migration. So, the bottom line is that any cane rod is vulnerable to becoming "loggy" from built-up moisture. After choosing our finish, the only truly importantcontribution we can make is to be certain that we take care of our rods.Avoid using the same rod repeatedly; dry your rods thoroughly after use;never, never store a rod in its tube, and; do not allow a rod to remainexposed to humid conditions for long periods of time. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with the importanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heat tempering reducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition to the factthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard stories of rodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this was becausetheywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough related that agiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree of tempering(orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do with sugars inthebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes. So it'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause much colorchangecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heating thatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this isaddressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with the list awiseold saying - hard won ignorance is the most persistent kind. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:02 PM Cc: Don & Sandy Andersen; rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much oftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moistureasitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture contenttoagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood.Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's been heatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and thatis"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) the USForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually see inthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nicecountrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down thetrackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow I gotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the point isheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically to thecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you as thescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hard toplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection compared witha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as itcouldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igiveexpress permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from Lazybee45@aol.com Tue Mar 13 16:00:36 2001 f2DM0Ze27522 Subject: Re: slow day, eh?! RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu Yeah, probably all out fishing! In a message dated 3/13/01 1:48:37 PM Central Standard Time,caneman@clnk.com writes: Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:38 PMSubject: slow day, eh?! slow day ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" _______________ >> "The learned are not wise, and the wise are not learned" Lao Tzu from caneman@clnk.com Tue Mar 13 16:24:56 2001 f2DMOte28775 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) "Rod Makers List Serve" Subject: Re: Tempering I've been watching this thread with some interest and would like tointerject a little experience that happened to me last year. Had a 7' 5 wt,of mine, took it to the river. Well, as you all know, I'm not the pictureof grace and I fell (unusual, huh? *S*) and broke the first snake up fromthe stripper. I fished it like that for the day, went home with it thatnight, cut the wraps off of that area, rewrapped a new snake in place, put acouple of coats of varnish on the wraps, and when those dried, but it backin the tube. Next time I went fishing with it, I noticed a slight kickwhere I had repaired the wrap. Again, just fished it, and put just a touchof heat to it and fixed the kick that night at home. Third time out, samething happened again! Rod would take a very sharp set at that point andONLY at that point, where the guide had been broken, and I could slightlyheat and straighten it and it would be fine until I got it out of the houseagain (very low humidity in this house) and on the water.What I finally did was got out the 10X glass, looked it over and thevarnish had not filled in around the feet where they go under the guide (myfault, I didn't put enough on them) and the ONLY thing I could figure out,is that moisture was re-entering the cane at that point. Sat and wonderedwhat to do... I decided to put that puppy in my heat treating oven at lowtemp on and stew it for awhile, so I did... can't remember the temp or thetime, but just for arguments sake, lets say 200 degrees for 30 minutes.After it cooled, it was still straight, so I put it on the turner and put 3or four coats of varnish on the wraps then dipped the section, just to makesure that the rod wasn't gaining any more moisture through the gaps I left.Guess what... that rod probably caught 200 plus fish and never, EVERtook any sort of a set or kink in that area again. This may not be empiricalevidence, it may not be scientific, and there may be another explanationthat someone can come up with as to WHY it took a set only where the guidehad been replaced and was not properly sealed, AND to why it never tookevenso much micro set in that very same place after I low temp cooked the caneto dry it and properly sealed it with varnish then redipped the section. Ifyou got an explanation, I'll listen, but right now, from my point, goodvarnish not only makes a rod look good, it makes a rod STAY good... andstraight...I'll admit that varnish is completely impervious to moisture... thenagain, NOTHING is, not even our ever so wondeful water"proof" epoxies andglues that we use to put these things together, HOWEVER, they do holdmoisture exchange down to so low of a level, that if the rod isn't left onthe water or in the water for a greatly extended period of time... whatamount of time, I don't know, but I do know that if it isn't sealed, eventhough the cane will not pick up a very large percentage of moistureoverall, it did seem obvious in this particular case that moisturereentering the cane at one specific point only, made a great deal ofdifference and showed what to me, was a grave problem! Varnish Does Matter!Just my opinion... Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Tempering Bill -- I appreciate what you say about no varnish being truly waterproof for long.I'm sure you're right that tempered cane re-absorbs some water, no matterwhat the coating. What I'm not convinced of is whether this matters - -whether a well tempered rod actually changes in action due to this kind ofabsorption/redrying. So far I haven't seen that. I recently fished with unvarnished rods (2 different rods of very differentlengths, varnish on wraps only) in various states of moistness. I fishedwith them soon after varnishing the wraps and then hanging them in adryingcloset over night at 160 deg F. I got them wet while fishing in an all dayrain. I dried them out again in the drying closet. I let them sit in amoistmidwestern basement for a few weeks. Through all these changes I couldn'ttell any gross difference in action, though of course there may have beenslight differences measurable in a lab. They were made from bambootempered onthe wraps. I'm not saying there aren't any rods that soften due to moisture and returnto better action when dried. I've read credible accounts of such things.Butso far my experience suggests this may not have been due to a bad finish,but perhaps to incompletely tempered bamboo. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:02 PM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering All, Moisture in cane (as in wood) is of two kinds, "bound" water and "free"water. The former is trapped, in a sense, within the cell structure and isalso called "inter-cellular" moisture. The latter is distributed freelybetween the cells and is called "intra-cellular" moisture. Heat treating the cane will drive out both types of moisture, as it willalso alter the nature of the resins (in some fashion we are not entirelycertain of) surrounding the dryed-out cells. The value of heat treatingourcane is, then, is that once the bound moisture is driven from theinter-cellular structures, it cannot be re-absorbed at some later date, asthe cell structure itself has been toughened (perhaps polymerized-- or wemight say, cross-linked). On the other hand, intra-cellular moisture("freewater") will indeed re-enter the cane upon every available opportunity. Agood dunking in the water, fishing in the rain, and, yes, even changesin>ambient humidy will all provide occasions for the cane to re- absorb freemoisture. Apart from aesthetic reasons, this is why we apply a good finish to ourrods. That said, we should also note that there is not a finishingmaterialavailable in God's world that can prevent moisture (water vapor orhumidity) from passing through that film. But this works both ways, folks. Just asmoisture can enter a varnished rod on its own, so will it leave on its ownwhen ambient humidity allows for it to do so. We can dry a rod out asodden rod once again and restore its action by slowly removing the "freemoisture." As to "protection," then, we have to realize that this can never be morethan a relative term. We can have pretty good protection against moisturemigration, and we can have very little protection. What we CANNOT have,however, is anything even vaguely approaching a "seal". As it happens, the best protection comes from two coats of a highpolyurethane (additional coats add little). Next best is three coats ofslightly thinned, alkyd, spar varnish. Third in line (but not very closetothe first two), come the various "rubbing oils," with tung providing betterprotection than linseed. Actually, these rubbing-oil finishes are not pureoils at all, but are already polymerized in some fashion, and also maycontain dryers, resins or alkyds). Offering the very least protection(indeed, nearly negligible) are the pure oil finishes. Lastly, we need to put another myth to rest. Wax adds nothing as far aspreventing the passage of water vapor is concerned. Sorry, folks. Waxwillprotect your finish, to be sure, and will help to keep your rod in nicecondition, but it does nothing to help with potential moisture migration. So, the bottom line is that any cane rod is vulnerable to becoming "loggy" from built-up moisture. After choosing our finish, the only trulyimportantcontribution we can make is to be certain that we take care of our rods.Avoid using the same rod repeatedly; dry your rods thoroughly after use;never, never store a rod in its tube, and; do not allow a rod to remainexposed to humid conditions for long periods of time. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Kling, Barry W." Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 8:24 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with theimportanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heat temperingreducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition to the factthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard stories of rodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this was becausetheywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough related that agiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree of tempering(orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do with sugars inthebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes. So it'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause much colorchangecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heating thatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this isaddressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with the list awiseold saying - hard won ignorance is the most persistent kind. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:02 PM Cc: Don & Sandy Andersen; rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much oftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as muchmoistureasitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture contenttoagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood.Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's beenheatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and thatis"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) theUSForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually seeinthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nicecountrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down thetrackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow Igotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the pointisheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically tothecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you asthescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hardtoplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection comparedwitha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as itcouldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igiveexpress permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from gjm80301@yahoo.com Tue Mar 13 16:32:50 2001 f2DMWne29299 2001 14:32:51 PST Subject: RE: Tempering I read with interest the comments about heat-treating for moderateperiods at 375 degrees. In my oven, if left the strips in there morethan about 12 minutes at 375, I would start getting charcoal. Myoven is large and has a fan with electronic controls, so it dropslittle when I open the door. Catanach's regimen of 7-8 minutes seemsto work for me. Yes, I have cooked some strips pretty good. That's how I know. Just my 2 cents. Jerry --- "Kling, Barry W." wrote: Bill -- I appreciate what you say about no varnish being truly waterproof I'm sure you're right that tempered cane re-absorbs some water, nomatterwhat the coating. What I'm not convinced of is whether this matters--whether a well tempered rod actually changes in action due to thiskind ofabsorption/redrying. So far I haven't seen that. I recently fished with unvarnished rods (2 different rods of verydifferentlengths, varnish on wraps only) in various states of moistness. Ifishedwith them soon after varnishing the wraps and then hanging them ina dryingcloset over night at 160 deg F. I got them wet while fishing in anall dayrain. I dried them out again in the drying closet. I let them sitin a moistmidwestern basement for a few weeks. Through all these changes Icouldn'ttell any gross difference in action, though of course there mayhave beenslight differences measurable in a lab. They were made from bambootempered them was onthe wraps. I'm not saying there aren't any rods that soften due to moistureand returnto better action when dried. I've read credible accounts of suchthings. Butso far my experience suggests this may not have been due to a badfinish,but perhaps to incompletely tempered bamboo. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:02 PM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering All, Moisture in cane (as in wood) is of two kinds, "bound" water and"free"water. The former is trapped, in a sense, within the cellstructure and isalso called "inter-cellular" moisture. The latter is distributedfreelybetween the cells and is called "intra-cellular" moisture. Heat treating the cane will drive out both types of moisture, as itwillalso alter the nature of the resins (in some fashion we are notentirelycertain of) surrounding the dryed-out cells. The value of heattreating ourcane is, then, is that once the bound moisture is driven from theinter-cellular structures, it cannot be re-absorbed at some laterdate, asthe cell structure itself has been toughened (perhapspolymerized--or wemight say, cross-linked). On the other hand, intra-cellularmoisture ("freewater") will indeed re-enter the cane upon every availableopportunity. Agood dunking in the water, fishing in the rain, and, yes, evenchanges inambient humidy will all provide occasions for the cane to re-absorbfreemoisture. Apart from aesthetic reasons, this is why we apply a good finish toourrods. That said, we should also note that there is not a finishingmaterialavailable in God's world that can prevent moisture (water vapor orhumidity) from passing through that film. But this works both ways, folks. Just asmoisture can enter a varnished rod on its own, so will it leave onits ownwhen ambient humidity allows for it to do so. We can dry a rodout asodden rod once again and restore its action by slowly removing the"freemoisture." As to "protection," then, we have to realize that this can never bemorethan a relative term. We can have pretty good protection againstmoisturemigration, and we can have very little protection. What we CANNOThave,however, is anything even vaguely approaching a "seal". As it happens, the best protection comes from two coats of a highpolyurethane (additional coats add little). Next best is threecoats ofslightly thinned, alkyd, spar varnish. Third in line (but not veryclose tothe first two), come the various "rubbing oils," with tungproviding betterprotection than linseed. Actually, these rubbing-oil finishes arenot pureoils at all, but are already polymerized in some fashion, and alsomaycontain dryers, resins or alkyds). Offering the very leastprotection(indeed, nearly negligible) are the pure oil finishes. Lastly, we need to put another myth to rest. Wax adds nothing asfar aspreventing the passage of water vapor is concerned. Sorry, folks. Wax willprotect your finish, to be sure, and will help to keep your rod innicecondition, but it does nothing to help with potential moisturemigration. So, the bottom line is that any cane rod is vulnerable to becoming"loggy" from built-up moisture. After choosing our finish, the only trulyimportantcontribution we can make is to be certain that we take care of ourrods.Avoid using the same rod repeatedly; dry your rods thoroughly afteruse;never, never store a rod in its tube, and; do not allow a rod toremainexposed to humid conditions for long periods of time. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Kling, Barry W." Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 8:24 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with theimportanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heattempering reducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition tothe factthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishesmay bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard storiesof rodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this wasbecause theywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexingand waterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough relatedthat agiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree oftempering(orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do withsugars inthebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes.So it'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause muchcolorchangecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heatingthatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this isaddressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with thelist === message truncated === __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Mar 13 18:28:30 2001 (may be forged)) f2E0STe02259 (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Tempering I'm pretty sure this was karma, not physics. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Tempering I've been watching this thread with some interest and would like tointerject a little experience that happened to me last year. Had a 7' 5 wt,of mine, took it to the river. Well, as you all know, I'm not the pictureof grace and I fell (unusual, huh? *S*) and broke the first snake up fromthe stripper. I fished it like that for the day, went home with it thatnight, cut the wraps off of that area, rewrapped a new snake in place, put acouple of coats of varnish on the wraps, and when those dried, but it backin the tube. Next time I went fishing with it, I noticed a slight kickwhere I had repaired the wrap. Again, just fished it, and put just a touchof heat to it and fixed the kick that night at home. Third time out, samething happened again! Rod would take a very sharp set at that point andONLY at that point, where the guide had been broken, and I could slightlyheat and straighten it and it would be fine until I got it out of the houseagain (very low humidity in this house) and on the water.What I finally did was got out the 10X glass, looked it over and thevarnish had not filled in around the feet where they go under the guide (myfault, I didn't put enough on them) and the ONLY thing I could figure out,is that moisture was re-entering the cane at that point. Sat and wonderedwhat to do... I decided to put that puppy in my heat treating oven at lowtemp on and stew it for awhile, so I did... can't remember the temp or thetime, but just for arguments sake, lets say 200 degrees for 30 minutes.After it cooled, it was still straight, so I put it on the turner and put 3or four coats of varnish on the wraps then dipped the section, just to makesure that the rod wasn't gaining any more moisture through the gaps I left.Guess what... that rod probably caught 200 plus fish and never, EVERtook any sort of a set or kink in that area again. This may not be empiricalevidence, it may not be scientific, and there may be another explanationthat someone can come up with as to WHY it took a set only where the guidehad been replaced and was not properly sealed, AND to why it never tookevenso much micro set in that very same place after I low temp cooked the caneto dry it and properly sealed it with varnish then redipped the section. Ifyou got an explanation, I'll listen, but right now, from my point, goodvarnish not only makes a rod look good, it makes a rod STAY good... andstraight...I'll admit that varnish is completely impervious to moisture... thenagain, NOTHING is, not even our ever so wondeful water"proof" epoxies andglues that we use to put these things together, HOWEVER, they do holdmoisture exchange down to so low of a level, that if the rod isn't left onthe water or in the water for a greatly extended period of time... whatamount of time, I don't know, but I do know that if it isn't sealed, eventhough the cane will not pick up a very large percentage of moistureoverall, it did seem obvious in this particular case that moisturereentering the cane at one specific point only, made a great deal ofdifference and showed what to me, was a grave problem! Varnish Does Matter!Just my opinion... Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Tempering Bill -- I appreciate what you say about no varnish being truly waterproof for long.I'm sure you're right that tempered cane re-absorbs some water, no matterwhat the coating. What I'm not convinced of is whether this matters - -whether a well tempered rod actually changes in action due to this kind ofabsorption/redrying. So far I haven't seen that. I recently fished with unvarnished rods (2 different rods of very differentlengths, varnish on wraps only) in various states of moistness. I fishedwith them soon after varnishing the wraps and then hanging them in adryingcloset over night at 160 deg F. I got them wet while fishing in an all dayrain. I dried them out again in the drying closet. I let them sit in amoistmidwestern basement for a few weeks. Through all these changes I couldn'ttell any gross difference in action, though of course there may have beenslight differences measurable in a lab. They were made from bambootempered onthe wraps. I'm not saying there aren't any rods that soften due to moisture and returnto better action when dried. I've read credible accounts of such things.Butso far my experience suggests this may not have been due to a bad finish,but perhaps to incompletely tempered bamboo. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:02 PM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering All, Moisture in cane (as in wood) is of two kinds, "bound" water and "free"water. The former is trapped, in a sense, within the cell structure and isalso called "inter-cellular" moisture. The latter is distributed freelybetween the cells and is called "intra-cellular" moisture. Heat treating the cane will drive out both types of moisture, as it willalso alter the nature of the resins (in some fashion we are not entirelycertain of) surrounding the dryed-out cells. The value of heat treatingourcane is, then, is that once the bound moisture is driven from theinter-cellular structures, it cannot be re-absorbed at some later date, asthe cell structure itself has been toughened (perhaps polymerized-- or wemight say, cross-linked). On the other hand, intra-cellular moisture("freewater") will indeed re-enter the cane upon every available opportunity. Agood dunking in the water, fishing in the rain, and, yes, even changes inambient humidy will all provide occasions for the cane to re-absorb freemoisture. Apart from aesthetic reasons, this is why we apply a good finish to ourrods. That said, we should also note that there is not a finishingmaterialavailable in God's world that can prevent moisture (water vapor orhumidity) from passing through that film. But this works both ways, folks. Just asmoisture can enter a varnished rod on its own, so will it leave on its ownwhen ambient humidity allows for it to do so. We can dry a rod out asodden rod once again and restore its action by slowly removing the "freemoisture." As to "protection," then, we have to realize that this can never be morethan a relative term. We can have pretty good protection against moisturemigration, and we can have very little protection. What we CANNOT have,however, is anything even vaguely approaching a "seal". As it happens, the best protection comes from two coats of a highpolyurethane (additional coats add little). Next best is three coats ofslightly thinned, alkyd, spar varnish. Third in line (but not very closetothe first two), come the various "rubbing oils," with tung providing betterprotection than linseed. Actually, these rubbing-oil finishes are not pureoils at all, but are already polymerized in some fashion, and also maycontain dryers, resins or alkyds). Offering the very least protection(indeed, nearly negligible) are the pure oil finishes. Lastly, we need to put another myth to rest. Wax adds nothing as far aspreventing the passage of water vapor is concerned. Sorry, folks. Waxwillprotect your finish, to be sure, and will help to keep your rod in nicecondition, but it does nothing to help with potential moisture migration. So, the bottom line is that any cane rod is vulnerable to becoming "loggy" from built-up moisture. After choosing our finish, the only trulyimportantcontribution we can make is to be certain that we take care of our rods.Avoid using the same rod repeatedly; dry your rods thoroughly after use;never, never store a rod in its tube, and; do not allow a rod to remainexposed to humid conditions for long periods of time. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Kling, Barry W." Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 8:24 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with theimportanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heat temperingreducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition to the factthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard stories of rodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this was becausetheywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough related that agiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree of tempering(orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do with sugars inthebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes. So it'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause much colorchangecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heating thatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this isaddressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with the list awiseold saying - hard won ignorance is the most persistent kind. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:02 PM Cc: Don & Sandy Andersen; rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much oftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as muchmoistureasitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture contenttoagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood.Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's beenheatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and thatis"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) theUSForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually seeinthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nicecountrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down thetrackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow Igotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the pointisheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically tothecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you asthescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hardtoplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection comparedwitha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as itcouldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igiveexpress permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from mrmac@tcimet.net Tue Mar 13 18:31:22 2001 f2E0VMe02452 Subject: hookkeepers Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. Does everyone use them?What type do you guys like - strap and ring, or what? If'n I wanted toget by cheap and dirty, what kind of homebrew might do the trick well?hmmmm? Only on #4, and it doesn't have one yet. I've used the strap and ringapproach (gets all clogged up when dipping), and the English hook tenderthingys that are "fixed", and it's not bad, but isn't all goodness andlight, either. Bought a cute folding Fuji in a moment of confusion.(it would REALLY get varnish gunked, and besides, it seems to be more Maybe there's a better mousetrap?...... regards, all - mac from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Mar 13 19:27:55 2001 f2E1Rte03597 with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:26:49 -0800 Subject: Re: hookkeepers f2E1Rte03598 Hi Ralph, I only use the strap and ring style on some rods, although I suspect mostfishers probably don't want hookkeepers at all. As far as dipping goes, use a straight pin through the ring and into the corkto suspend it away from the blank. Submerge the butt until the hookkeeperis sitting a couple inches above the varnish level then using a cheap throwaway brush, varnish the wraps around the hookkeeper just like you alreadydid a few times prior to dipping. Apply less varnish on the area above wherethe strap and ring sits so it doesn't drip onto the strap/ring, but let thevarnish from the five other flats drip down. Then lower the rod until the ringis just above the varnish level. Allow the brushed varnish to slough down intothe tube and then continue withdrawing the rod at whatever rate you use. This avoids getting any varnish on the strap/ring and also makes for a cleanvarnish line where the cork or winding check meets the hookkeeper wrap.This all assumes you place your hookkeeper close to the cork. If you place itdown the blank a ways, it wouldn't work. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu Ralph MacKenzie 03/13/01 04:29PM >>>Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. Does everyone use them?What type do you guys like - strap and ring, or what? If'n I wanted toget by cheap and dirty, what kind of homebrew might do the trick well?hmmmm? Only on #4, and it doesn't have one yet. I've used the strap and ringapproach (gets all clogged up when dipping), and the English hook tenderthingys that are "fixed", and it's not bad, but isn't all goodness andlight, either. Bought a cute folding Fuji in a moment of confusion.(it would REALLY get varnish gunked, and besides, it seems to be more Maybe there's a better mousetrap?...... regards, all - mac from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Mar 13 19:29:26 2001 f2E1TPe03740 Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:29:21 -0800 Subject: Re: hookkeepers Mac,I don't use hook keepers. Either I like Garrison's reasoning or I'mjust lazy or I stuck a hook in my hand once. I don't really remember... How 'bout the rest of y'all?? Harry Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from goodaple@tcac.net Tue Mar 13 19:37:48 2001 f2E1ble04001 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 licensed1ebd4f8b91132ed01cf0e3e933da025) 0600 Subject: Some bike ridin n rod building guy Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C0ABF5.749171C0 Hey Bob N.) Cool Bob. Randall G. Now THAT IS GOOD =advertisement!!!!. Rockin. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C0ABF5.749171C0 Hey Bob N.< who was that guy in the= Rockin. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C0ABF5.749171C0-- from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Mar 13 19:39:36 2001 f2E1dZe04161 0000 0000 Subject: Re: hookkeepers Ralph, I don't like hookeepers and can't understand why anyone would putsuch a useless piece of hardware on a rod. When a fisherman uses ahookeeperto lets say change fishing locations the loop or knot at the leader/lineconnection is reeled into the tiptop guide and down a snake or two dependingon the rod / leader length. Now when the fisherman wants to make a cast heunhooks the fly and fights with the line to get the knot out of the guides.The way I do it is to wrap the leader/line around the back of the reel andhook the fly on the stripper guide or the next snake. The knot stays out ofthe tiptop ready for the next cast. But, to each his own! Marty Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. Does everyone use them?What type do you guys like - strap and ring, or what? If'n I wanted toget by cheap and dirty, what kind of homebrew might do the trick well?hmmmm? Only on #4, and it doesn't have one yet. I've used the strap and ringapproach (gets all clogged up when dipping), and the English hook tenderthingys that are "fixed", and it's not bad, but isn't all goodness andlight, either. Bought a cute folding Fuji in a moment of confusion.(it would REALLY get varnish gunked, and besides, it seems to be more Maybe there's a better mousetrap?...... regards, all - mac from harms1@pa.net Tue Mar 13 19:40:20 2001 f2E1eJe04318 Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:40:10 -0500 "Rod Makers List Serve" Subject: Re: Tempering Bob, I believe your experience bears out, almost to the letter, what I wasclaiming. Good varnish DOES matter, and especially uniformly appliedvarnish. Whatever moisture creeps into (and out of) the rod, let it beuniform, and let it happen slowly. The slow and gentle oven treatment yougave the rod re- juvinated it, and the varnish you applied ensured that themoisture migration would be minimized as much as possible for the future. I did not mean to claim in my previous email that, since we can't obtainperfect protection against water, we needn't consider our varnish as beinganything more than a matter of cosmetics. On the contrary, it is exactlybecause the protection afforded by various finishes is imperfect that weneed to consider very carefully what we use and how it is applied. We need to know that our rods can and will absorb moisture, and we need toknow what we can do about that. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tempering I've been watching this thread with some interest and would like tointerject a little experience that happened to me last year. Had a 7' 5wt,of mine, took it to the river. Well, as you all know, I'm not the pictureof grace and I fell (unusual, huh? *S*) and broke the first snake up fromthe stripper. I fished it like that for the day, went home with it thatnight, cut the wraps off of that area, rewrapped a new snake in place, putacouple of coats of varnish on the wraps, and when those dried, but it backin the tube. Next time I went fishing with it, I noticed a slight kickwhere I had repaired the wrap. Again, just fished it, and put just atouchof heat to it and fixed the kick that night at home. Third time out, samething happened again! Rod would take a very sharp set at that point andONLY at that point, where the guide had been broken, and I could slightlyheat and straighten it and it would be fine until I got it out of thehouseagain (very low humidity in this house) and on the water.What I finally did was got out the 10X glass, looked it over and thevarnish had not filled in around the feet where they go under the guide(myfault, I didn't put enough on them) and the ONLY thing I could figure out,is that moisture was re-entering the cane at that point. Sat andwonderedwhat to do... I decided to put that puppy in my heat treating oven at lowtemp on and stew it for awhile, so I did... can't remember the temp or thetime, but just for arguments sake, lets say 200 degrees for 30 minutes.After it cooled, it was still straight, so I put it on the turner and put3or four coats of varnish on the wraps then dipped the section, just tomakesure that the rod wasn't gaining any more moisture through the gaps Ileft.Guess what... that rod probably caught 200 plus fish and never, EVERtook any sort of a set or kink in that area again. This may not beempiricalevidence, it may not be scientific, and there may be another explanationthat someone can come up with as to WHY it took a set only where theguidehad been replaced and was not properly sealed, AND to why it never tookevenso much micro set in that very same place after I low temp cooked thecaneto dry it and properly sealed it with varnish then redipped the section.Ifyou got an explanation, I'll listen, but right now, from my point, goodvarnish not only makes a rod look good, it makes a rod STAY good... andstraight...I'll admit that varnish is completely impervious to moisture... thenagain, NOTHING is, not even our ever so wondeful water"proof" epoxies andglues that we use to put these things together, HOWEVER, they do holdmoisture exchange down to so low of a level, that if the rod isn't left onthe water or in the water for a greatly extended period of time... whatamount of time, I don't know, but I do know that if it isn't sealed, eventhough the cane will not pick up a very large percentage of moistureoverall, it did seem obvious in this particular case that moisturereentering the cane at one specific point only, made a great deal ofdifference and showed what to me, was a grave problem! Varnish Does Matter!Just my opinion... Bob -----Original Message-----From: Kling, Barry W. Cc: rodmakers Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 3:51 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Bill -- I appreciate what you say about no varnish being truly waterproof forlong.I'm sure you're right that tempered cane re-absorbs some water, nomatterwhat the coating. What I'm not convinced of is whether this matters --whether a well tempered rod actually changes in action due to this kindofabsorption/redrying. So far I haven't seen that. I recently fished with unvarnished rods (2 different rods of verydifferentlengths, varnish on wraps only) in various states of moistness. I fishedwith them soon after varnishing the wraps and then hanging them in adryingcloset over night at 160 deg F. I got them wet while fishing in an alldayrain. I dried them out again in the drying closet. I let them sit in amoistmidwestern basement for a few weeks. Through all these changes Icouldn'ttell any gross difference in action, though of course there may have beenslight differences measurable in a lab. They were made from bambootempered wasonthe wraps. I'm not saying there aren't any rods that soften due to moisture andreturnto better action when dried. I've read credible accounts of such things.Butso far my experience suggests this may not have been due to a badfinish,but perhaps to incompletely tempered bamboo. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:02 PM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering All, Moisture in cane (as in wood) is of two kinds, "bound" water and "free"water. The former is trapped, in a sense, within the cell structure andisalso called "inter-cellular" moisture. The latter is distributed freelybetween the cells and is called "intra-cellular" moisture. Heat treating the cane will drive out both types of moisture, as it willalso alter the nature of the resins (in some fashion we are not entirelycertain of) surrounding the dryed-out cells. The value of heat treatingourcane is, then, is that once the bound moisture is driven from theinter-cellular structures, it cannot be re-absorbed at some later date,asthe cell structure itself has been toughened (perhaps polymerized--or wemight say, cross-linked). On the other hand, intra-cellular moisture("freewater") will indeed re-enter the cane upon every available opportunity.Agood dunking in the water, fishing in the rain, and, yes, even changes inambient humidy will all provide occasions for the cane to re-absorb freemoisture. Apart from aesthetic reasons, this is why we apply a good finish to ourrods. That said, we should also note that there is not a finishingmaterialavailable in God's world that can prevent moisture (water vapor orhumidity) from passing through that film. But this works both ways, folks. Justasmoisture can enter a varnished rod on its own, so will it leave on itsownwhen ambient humidity allows for it to do so. We can dry a rod out asodden rod once again and restore its action by slowly removing the "freemoisture." As to "protection," then, we have to realize that this can never be morethan a relative term. We can have pretty good protection againstmoisturemigration, and we can have very little protection. What we CANNOT have,however, is anything even vaguely approaching a "seal". As it happens, the best protection comes from two coats of a highpolyurethane (additional coats add little). Next best is three coats ofslightly thinned, alkyd, spar varnish. Third in line (but not very closetothe first two), come the various "rubbing oils," with tung providingbetterprotection than linseed. Actually, these rubbing-oil finishes are notpureoils at all, but are already polymerized in some fashion, and also maycontain dryers, resins or alkyds). Offering the very least protection(indeed, nearly negligible) are the pure oil finishes. Lastly, we need to put another myth to rest. Wax adds nothing as far aspreventing the passage of water vapor is concerned. Sorry, folks. Waxwillprotect your finish, to be sure, and will help to keep your rod in nicecondition, but it does nothing to help with potential moisture migration. So, the bottom line is that any cane rod is vulnerable to becoming"loggy" from built-up moisture. After choosing our finish, the only trulyimportantcontribution we can make is to be certain that we take care of our rods.Avoid using the same rod repeatedly; dry your rods thoroughly after use;never, never store a rod in its tube, and; do not allow a rod to remainexposed to humid conditions for long periods of time. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Kling, Barry W." Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 8:24 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with theimportanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heat temperingreducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition to thefactthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes maybewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard stories ofrodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this wasbecausetheywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing andwaterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough related thatagiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree oftempering(orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do with sugars inthebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes. Soit'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause much colorchangecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heating thatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this isaddressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with the list awiseold saying - hard won ignorance is the most persistent kind. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:02 PM Cc: Don & Sandy Andersen; rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing muchoftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as muchmoistureasitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisturecontenttoagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treatingisand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood hasbeenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood.Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's beenheatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heatingandallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past andthatis"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people haveprettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) theUSForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually seeinthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in thetopend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nicecountrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had everySundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and letallthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down thetrackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow Igotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few thingslikespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the pointisheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared partisground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and doisabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't havelignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinoussmellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically tothecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it'saone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is alotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you asthescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hardtoplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seemtohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soakitover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection comparedwitha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as itcouldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right lawsIgiveexpress permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from oakmere@carol.net Tue Mar 13 19:49:03 2001 f2E1n2e04677 Subject: RE: Bamboo Fishish Ray Gould and others: I have been using the P&L R10 varane that Ray Gould recommends and find itexcellent. I have now used it for both bamboo and graphite. It provides anexcellent finish for the rod and the wraps in my opinion. Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutbeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work); 864-656-7471oakmere@carol.net (home); 864-882-0077 from setissma@email.msn.com Tue Mar 13 19:56:25 2001 f2E1uPe05096 Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:56:21 -0800 Subject: Medved Beveler- big trouble FILETIME=[F83BD040:01C0AC29] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I am in the process of building a Medved Beveler. Trouble is, I ran a =few test pieces of cane through it, and the end result was flying =splinters. I thought that my router bit was sharp (it was almost new), =but am somewhat dismayed by the results I am getting. While there are =some obvious things I need to do, like strengthen the hold downs and =sharpen up the bit, has anyone had any experience tuning up a Beveler? I =am open to suggestions, other than "get out your plane and rough form". =I would like to make this work. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2E8DB.11295B00 I am in the process of building a = Trouble is, I ran a few test pieces of cane through it, and the end = flying splinters. I thought that my router bit was sharp (it was almost = but am somewhat dismayed by the results I am getting. While there are = obvious things I need to do, like strengthen the hold downs and sharpen = suggestions, other than "get out your plane and rough form". I would = make this work. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2E8DB.11295B00-- from harms1@pa.net Tue Mar 13 20:11:15 2001 f2E2BEe05601 Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:10:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Tung vs Spar Don, I'm not certain that one could control such an experiment adequately. Itwould be interesting, indeed, to discover if such potential differecesexist, but unless both rods were exposed and then measured in precisely might be relevant. The question you seem to be asking is "will the two rods absorb and releasemoisture in such a fashion as to create differences in their ability tocast?" I predict that the answer would be a qualified "yes." But, thatanswer would depend a great deal on which day you happened to choose to"test" the two rods. Were both rods recently subjected to water? And/or humidity after exposure to moisture? How much time has passed and whathavebeen the atmospheric conditions since the rods were last used? Are we inthe midst of a hot, wet summer or is it a cool, dry winter? There are just so many variables. The well varnished rod will take on andrelease moisture very slowly. The rubbed finish of pure tung oil will bothtake on and release moisture rather more quickly. That's about as much asyou can depend upon. How much these differences will actually affect theactions of the two rods on any given day, I think, is a matter ofunpredictability. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Tung vs Spar A query:Has anyone done an empirical test of two identical rods, same taper andfromthe same culm, the only difference being one is oil rubbed and onevarnished?I'd be interested to know if the oiled rod seems slower or if over anappreciable amt of time it has slowed or otherwise suffered ill effectsfromnot being "sealed" by a varnish or poly finish. Curious Don ----- Original Message -----From: WILLIAM HARMS Cc: rodmakers Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:02 PMSubject: Re: Tempering All, Moisture in cane (as in wood) is of two kinds, "bound" water and "free"water. The former is trapped, in a sense, within the cell structure andisalso called "inter-cellular" moisture. The latter is distributed freelybetween the cells and is called "intra-cellular" moisture. Heat treating the cane will drive out both types of moisture, as it willalso alter the nature of the resins (in some fashion we are not entirelycertain of) surrounding the dryed-out cells. The value of heat treatingourcane is, then, is that once the bound moisture is driven from theinter-cellular structures, it cannot be re-absorbed at some later date,asthe cell structure itself has been toughened (perhaps polymerized--or wemight say, cross-linked). On the other hand, intra-cellular moisture("freewater") will indeed re-enter the cane upon every available opportunity.Agood dunking in the water, fishing in the rain, and, yes, even changesinambient humidy will all provide occasions for the cane to re-absorb freemoisture. Apart from aesthetic reasons, this is why we apply a good finish to ourrods. That said, we should also note that there is not a finishingmaterialavailable in God's world that can prevent moisture (water vapor orhumidity) from passing through that film. But this works both ways, folks. Justasmoisture can enter a varnished rod on its own, so will it leave on itsownwhen ambient humidity allows for it to do so. We can dry a rod out asodden rod once again and restore its action by slowly removing the"freemoisture." As to "protection," then, we have to realize that this can never be morethan a relative term. We can have pretty good protection againstmoisturemigration, and we can have very little protection. What we CANNOThave,however, is anything even vaguely approaching a "seal". As it happens, the best protection comes from two coats of a highpolyurethane (additional coats add little). Next best is three coats ofslightly thinned, alkyd, spar varnish. Third in line (but not veryclosetothe first two), come the various "rubbing oils," with tung providingbetterprotection than linseed. Actually, these rubbing-oil finishes are notpureoils at all, but are already polymerized in some fashion, and also maycontain dryers, resins or alkyds). Offering the very least protection(indeed, nearly negligible) are the pure oil finishes. Lastly, we need to put another myth to rest. Wax adds nothing as far aspreventing the passage of water vapor is concerned. Sorry, folks. Waxwillprotect your finish, to be sure, and will help to keep your rod in nicecondition, but it does nothing to help with potential moisturemigration. So, the bottom line is that any cane rod is vulnerable to becoming"loggy" from built-up moisture. After choosing our finish, the only trulyimportantcontribution we can make is to be certain that we take care of our rods.Avoid using the same rod repeatedly; dry your rods thoroughly after use;never, never store a rod in its tube, and; do not allow a rod to remainexposed to humid conditions for long periods of time. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Kling, Barry W." Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 8:24 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with theimportanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heat temperingreducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition to thefactthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes maybewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard stories ofrodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this wasbecausetheywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing andwaterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough related thatagiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree oftempering(orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do with sugarsinthebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes. Soit'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause much colorchangecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heating thatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this isaddressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with the list awiseold saying - hard won ignorance is the most persistent kind. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:02 PM Cc: Don & Sandy Andersen; rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that ligninisconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing muchoftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as muchmoistureasitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisturecontenttoagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treatingisand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood hasbeenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood.Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's beenheatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heatingandallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic socallinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accuratedescription. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past andthatis"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people haveprettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to hardenthem.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think)theUSForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actuallyseeinthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in thetopend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nicecountrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had everySundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and letallthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down thetrackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow Igotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few thingslikespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but thepointisheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared partisground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and doisabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing aspearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't havelignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinoussmellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically tothecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence thatit'saone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is alotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you asthescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planingiteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only veryhardtoplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seemtohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks upstatic from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with rawbamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become alittleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soakitover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection comparedwitha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as itcouldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy rightlawsIgiveexpress permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Tue Mar 13 20:28:12 2001 f2E2SBe06086 Subject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0AC04.AD27FEA0 A man after my own heart!!!! I've been playing around with the same thing.I've gone through a lot of practice cane!! The key, I think, is to keep thesplines held down tight against the form so you don't have "chatter." Whenthe spline starts to chatter as it goes through- it makes the 4th of Julylook like a dud!! A sharp blade will help also(make sure that you usecarbide tips). I'm still in the R & D part of my beveler evolution, and have beenhand-planing my rough cuts- I'm glad that I'm getting better(read faster) atthat, since my beveler is working better in theory than practice!!! John K.-----Original Message-----From: setissma Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:57 PMSubject: Medved Beveler- big trouble I am in the process of building a Medved Beveler. Trouble is, I ran afew test pieces of cane through it, and the end result was flying splinters.I thought that my router bit was sharp (it was almost new), but amsomewhatdismayed by the results I am getting. While there are some obvious things Ineed to do, like strengthen the hold downs and sharpen up the bit, hasanyone had any experience tuning up a Beveler? I am open to suggestions,other than "get out your plane and rough form". I would like to make thiswork. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0AC04.AD27FEA0 A man after my own chatter as it goes through- it makes the 4th of July look like a = sharp blade will help also(make sure that you use carbide =tips). I'm still in the R & D part of my beveler = have been hand-planing my rough cuts- I'm glad that I'm getting = practice!!! John K. -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:57 PMSubject: Medved = troubleI am in the process of building a = Beveler. Trouble is, I ran a few test pieces of cane through it, and = result was flying splinters. I thought that my router bit was sharp = almost new), but am somewhat dismayed by the results I am getting. = there are some obvious things I need to do, like strengthen the hold = and sharpen up the bit, has anyone had any experience tuning up a = am open to suggestions, other than "get out your plane and = form". I would like to make this work. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0AC04.AD27FEA0-- from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Tue Mar 13 20:34:08 2001 f2E2Y8e06428 Subject: Re: hookkeepers f2E2Y8e06429 Harry, I'm with you- I like Garrison's reasoning-I and other's that I know have gottenstuck, on occasion. Also- with small rods, it is a pain to have the leaderhalfway up the rod. I like to pass the leader around the reel and hook the flyon one of the guides. Just 30 years of fly fishing experience speaking here. John K.-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: hookkeepers Mac,I don't use hook keepers. Either I like Garrison's reasoning or I'mjust lazy or I stuck a hook in my hand once. I don't really remember... How 'bout the rest of y'all?? Harry Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from harms1@pa.net Tue Mar 13 20:43:33 2001 f2E2hVe06858 Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:43:21 -0500 "RodMakers List \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: Tempering Well, I believe in karma. But I'm not convinced that karma applies to flyrods. I think the properties of fly rods are probably governed byprinciples of physics--though we may not know which ones. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Tempering I'm pretty sure this was karma, not physics. -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 4:22 PM Subject: Re: Tempering I've been watching this thread with some interest and would like tointerject a little experience that happened to me last year. Had a 7' 5wt,of mine, took it to the river. Well, as you all know, I'm not the pictureof grace and I fell (unusual, huh? *S*) and broke the first snake up fromthe stripper. I fished it like that for the day, went home with it thatnight, cut the wraps off of that area, rewrapped a new snake in place, putacouple of coats of varnish on the wraps, and when those dried, but it backin the tube. Next time I went fishing with it, I noticed a slight kickwhere I had repaired the wrap. Again, just fished it, and put just atouchof heat to it and fixed the kick that night at home. Third time out, samething happened again! Rod would take a very sharp set at that point andONLY at that point, where the guide had been broken, and I could slightlyheat and straighten it and it would be fine until I got it out of thehouseagain (very low humidity in this house) and on the water.What I finally did was got out the 10X glass, looked it over and thevarnish had not filled in around the feet where they go under the guide(myfault, I didn't put enough on them) and the ONLY thing I could figure out,is that moisture was re-entering the cane at that point. Sat andwonderedwhat to do... I decided to put that puppy in my heat treating oven at lowtemp on and stew it for awhile, so I did... can't remember the temp or thetime, but just for arguments sake, lets say 200 degrees for 30 minutes.After it cooled, it was still straight, so I put it on the turner and put3or four coats of varnish on the wraps then dipped the section, just tomakesure that the rod wasn't gaining any more moisture through the gaps Ileft.Guess what... that rod probably caught 200 plus fish and never, EVERtook any sort of a set or kink in that area again. This may not beempiricalevidence, it may not be scientific, and there may be another explanationthat someone can come up with as to WHY it took a set only where theguidehad been replaced and was not properly sealed, AND to why it never tookevenso much micro set in that very same place after I low temp cooked thecaneto dry it and properly sealed it with varnish then redipped the section.Ifyou got an explanation, I'll listen, but right now, from my point, goodvarnish not only makes a rod look good, it makes a rod STAY good... andstraight...I'll admit that varnish is completely impervious to moisture... thenagain, NOTHING is, not even our ever so wondeful water"proof" epoxies andglues that we use to put these things together, HOWEVER, they do holdmoisture exchange down to so low of a level, that if the rod isn't left onthe water or in the water for a greatly extended period of time... whatamount of time, I don't know, but I do know that if it isn't sealed, eventhough the cane will not pick up a very large percentage of moistureoverall, it did seem obvious in this particular case that moisturereentering the cane at one specific point only, made a great deal ofdifference and showed what to me, was a grave problem! Varnish Does Matter!Just my opinion... Bob -----Original Message-----From: Kling, Barry W. Cc: rodmakers Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 3:51 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Bill -- I appreciate what you say about no varnish being truly waterproof forlong.I'm sure you're right that tempered cane re-absorbs some water, nomatterwhat the coating. What I'm not convinced of is whether this matters --whether a well tempered rod actually changes in action due to this kindofabsorption/redrying. So far I haven't seen that. I recently fished with unvarnished rods (2 different rods of verydifferentlengths, varnish on wraps only) in various states of moistness. I fishedwith them soon after varnishing the wraps and then hanging them in adryingcloset over night at 160 deg F. I got them wet while fishing in an alldayrain. I dried them out again in the drying closet. I let them sit in amoistmidwestern basement for a few weeks. Through all these changes Icouldn'ttell any gross difference in action, though of course there may have beenslight differences measurable in a lab. They were made from bambootempered wasonthe wraps. I'm not saying there aren't any rods that soften due to moisture andreturnto better action when dried. I've read credible accounts of such things.Butso far my experience suggests this may not have been due to a badfinish,but perhaps to incompletely tempered bamboo. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:02 PM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering All, Moisture in cane (as in wood) is of two kinds, "bound" water and "free"water. The former is trapped, in a sense, within the cell structure andisalso called "inter-cellular" moisture. The latter is distributed freelybetween the cells and is called "intra-cellular" moisture. Heat treating the cane will drive out both types of moisture, as it willalso alter the nature of the resins (in some fashion we are not entirelycertain of) surrounding the dryed-out cells. The value of heat treatingourcane is, then, is that once the bound moisture is driven from theinter-cellular structures, it cannot be re-absorbed at some later date,asthe cell structure itself has been toughened (perhaps polymerized--or wemight say, cross-linked). On the other hand, intra-cellular moisture("freewater") will indeed re-enter the cane upon every available opportunity.Agood dunking in the water, fishing in the rain, and, yes, even changes inambient humidy will all provide occasions for the cane to re-absorb freemoisture. Apart from aesthetic reasons, this is why we apply a good finish to ourrods. That said, we should also note that there is not a finishingmaterialavailable in God's world that can prevent moisture (water vapor orhumidity) from passing through that film. But this works both ways, folks. Justasmoisture can enter a varnished rod on its own, so will it leave on itsownwhen ambient humidity allows for it to do so. We can dry a rod out asodden rod once again and restore its action by slowly removing the "freemoisture." As to "protection," then, we have to realize that this can never be morethan a relative term. We can have pretty good protection againstmoisturemigration, and we can have very little protection. What we CANNOT have,however, is anything even vaguely approaching a "seal". As it happens, the best protection comes from two coats of a highpolyurethane (additional coats add little). Next best is three coats ofslightly thinned, alkyd, spar varnish. Third in line (but not very closetothe first two), come the various "rubbing oils," with tung providingbetterprotection than linseed. Actually, these rubbing-oil finishes are notpureoils at all, but are already polymerized in some fashion, and also maycontain dryers, resins or alkyds). Offering the very least protection(indeed, nearly negligible) are the pure oil finishes. Lastly, we need to put another myth to rest. Wax adds nothing as far aspreventing the passage of water vapor is concerned. Sorry, folks. Waxwillprotect your finish, to be sure, and will help to keep your rod in nicecondition, but it does nothing to help with potential moisture migration. So, the bottom line is that any cane rod is vulnerable to becoming"loggy" from built-up moisture. After choosing our finish, the only trulyimportantcontribution we can make is to be certain that we take care of our rods.Avoid using the same rod repeatedly; dry your rods thoroughly after use;never, never store a rod in its tube, and; do not allow a rod to remainexposed to humid conditions for long periods of time. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Kling, Barry W." Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 8:24 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with theimportanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heat temperingreducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition to thefactthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes maybewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard stories ofrodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this wasbecausetheywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing andwaterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough related thatagiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree oftempering(orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do with sugars inthebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes. Soit'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause much colorchangecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heating thatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this isaddressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with the list awiseold saying - hard won ignorance is the most persistent kind. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:02 PM Cc: Don & Sandy Andersen; rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing muchoftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as muchmoistureasitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisturecontenttoagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treatingisand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood hasbeenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood.Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's beenheatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heatingandallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past andthatis"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people haveprettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) theUSForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually seeinthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in thetopend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nicecountrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had everySundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and letallthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down thetrackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow Igotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few thingslikespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the pointisheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared partisground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and doisabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't havelignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinoussmellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically tothecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it'saone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is alotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you asthescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hardtoplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seemtohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soakitover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection comparedwitha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as itcouldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right lawsIgiveexpress permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from johnsabina@home.com Tue Mar 13 20:46:20 2001 f2E2kKe07036 ;Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:46:17 -0800 Subject: Re: ferrule problems Chad: That is how I did my first rod -- put the bend up and proceed. It workedfine. My issue wasn't a bend in the cane but a slightly crooked ferrule.Just be more careful next time when you roll the rod before the glue dries. JJS----- Original Message ----- Subject: ferrule problems I just finished putting the ferrules on my first rod. The tip sectionswent great-dead on straight to my eye. The butt section ferrule has aslight bend. Glued it with Devcon 2-ton so would rather not try to takeit off. This is my first rod, but I'll venture a guess that rod actionwill not be noticably impaired. My question is, should I apply some heatand try to straighten it? If I mount the sections together, with thebend facing up, it's not really noticable, so I'm tempted to leave italone. Any suggestions or thoughts on the matter would be greatlyappreciated. Thanks in advance, Chad S. Boyd from caneman@clnk.com Tue Mar 13 20:48:30 2001 f2E2mTe07235 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: hookkeepers no hook keepers here... what are the guides for... at least that way thehook is away from your fingers! -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: hookkeepers Mac,I don't use hook keepers. Either I like Garrison's reasoning or I'mjust lazy or I stuck a hook in my hand once. I don't really remember... How 'bout the rest of y'all?? Harry Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from channer@frontier.net Tue Mar 13 21:05:01 2001 f2E350e07985 Subject: Re: hookkeepers Ralph;I use a strap and ring, the other kinds don't look right on a bamboo rod tome and as far as I am concerned, a rod looks incomplete without one, thosewho don't like it, don't have to use it. As opinionated as I am getting, I'mbeginning to think I might make a rodmaker someday.John Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. Does everyone use them?What type do you guys like - strap and ring, or what? If'n I wanted toget by cheap and dirty, what kind of homebrew might do the trick well?hmmmm? Only on #4, and it doesn't have one yet. I've used the strap and ringapproach (gets all clogged up when dipping), and the English hook tenderthingys that are "fixed", and it's not bad, but isn't all goodness andlight, either. Bought a cute folding Fuji in a moment of confusion.(it would REALLY get varnish gunked, and besides, it seems to be more Maybe there's a better mousetrap?...... regards, all - mac from tfbinn@mindspring.com Tue Mar 13 21:15:58 2001 f2E3Fve08405 Subject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AC0B.48FF9120 Jeff,Make sure you aren't trying to cut too much cane off at one time. You =have to adjust the bed so just a little material is taken off at a pass. =Then adjust the bed up a little, flip the strip and pass it through =again. Keep doing this; small adjustments, flipping the strip, until it =(they-since you'll end up running all your strips through at one =setting) are down to the size you want.While this process takes a little =longer, trying to take too big a bite results in the situation you =describe.Good Luck. They do work well.Winston Binney ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AC0B.48FF9120 Jeff,Make sure you aren't trying to cut too= taken off at a pass. Then adjust the bed up a little, flip the strip and = through again. Keep doing this; small adjustments, flipping the strip, = (they-since you'll end up running all your strips through at one = to take too big a bite results in the situation you =describe.Good Luck. They do work =well.Winston =Binney ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AC0B.48FF9120-- from goodaple@tcac.net Tue Mar 13 21:26:44 2001 f2E3Qhe08836 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 licensed1ebd4f8b91132ed01cf0e3e933da025) 0600 Subject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C0AC04.AB106940 I made the same type of beveler and had the typical issues. I bought a =high quality carbide router bit which helped and tightened the =holddowns. I also tend to try to take less material off in a single pass =and increased the number of passes which helped alot. I also added a =sidebox connection to hook up my shop vac to help reduce the flying =material issue. Also a person could add a top cover above the bit to =reduce flying material. Overall I like mine very much. I just make sure =to keep the blades very sharp and don't try to take too much material in =a pass. Goodluck, Randall R. Gregory NW AR. Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:29 PMSubject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble A man after my own heart!!!! I've been playing around with the same =thing. I've gone through a lot of practice cane!! The key, I think, is =to keep the splines held down tight against the form so you don't have ="chatter." When the spline starts to chatter as it goes through- it =makes the 4th of July look like a dud!! A sharp blade will help =also(make sure that you use carbide tips). I'm still in the R & D part of my beveler evolution, and have been =hand- planing my rough cuts- I'm glad that I'm getting better(read =faster) at that, since my beveler is working better in theory than =practice!!! John K.-----Original Message-----From: setissma Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:57 PMSubject: Medved Beveler- big trouble I am in the process of building a Medved Beveler. Trouble is, I ran =a few test pieces of cane through it, and the end result was flying =splinters. I thought that my router bit was sharp (it was almost new), =but am somewhat dismayed by the results I am getting. While there are =some obvious things I need to do, like strengthen the hold downs and =sharpen up the bit, has anyone had any experience tuning up a Beveler? I =am open to suggestions, other than "get out your plane and rough form". =I would like to make this work. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C0AC04.AB106940 I made the same type of beveler andhad = issues. I bought a high quality carbide router bit which helped and = the holddowns. I also tend to try to take less material off in a single = increased the number of passes which helped alot. I also added a sidebox = connection to hook up my shop vac to help reduce the flying material = a person could add a top cover above the bit to reduce flying material. = I like mine very much. I just make sure to keep the blades very sharp = try to take too much material in a pass. Goodluck, Randall R. Gregory NW = AR. ----- Original Message ----- John Kenealy Cc: Rodmakers Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 = PMSubject: Re: Medved Beveler- = trouble A man after my own blade will help also(make sure that you use carbide =tips). I'm still in the R & D part of my beveler = have been hand-planing my rough cuts- I'm glad that I'm getting = practice!!! John K. -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:57 PMSubject: Medved = troubleI am in the process of building a = Beveler. Trouble is, I ran a few test pieces of cane through it, and = result was flying splinters. I thought that my router bit was sharp = almost new), but am somewhat dismayed by the results I am getting. = there are some obvious things I need to do, like strengthen the hold = and sharpen up the bit, has anyone had any experience tuning up a = am open to suggestions, other than "get out your plane and rough = would like to make this work. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C0AC04.AB106940-- from goodaple@tcac.net Tue Mar 13 21:32:07 2001 f2E3W7e09070 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 licensed1ebd4f8b91132ed01cf0e3e933da025) 0600 Subject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C0AC05.6ECE4640 I forgot to mention that you could also change the springs on your hold =downs. A tighter spring would helpreduce the chatter as another member =mentioned and would however result in requiring a little more feed =pressure. Randall G. Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:29 PMSubject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble I made the same type of beveler and had the typical issues. I bought a =high quality carbide router bit which helped and tightened the =holddowns. I also tend to try to take less material off in a single pass =and increased the number of passes which helped alot. I also added a =sidebox connection to hook up my shop vac to help reduce the flying =material issue. Also a person could add a top cover above the bit to =reduce flying material. Overall I like mine very much. I just make sure =to keep the blades very sharp and don't try to take too much material in =a pass. Goodluck, Randall R. Gregory NW AR. Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:29 PMSubject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble A man after my own heart!!!! I've been playing around with the same =thing. I've gone through a lot of practice cane!! The key, I think, is =to keep the splines held down tight against the form so you don't have ="chatter." When the spline starts to chatter as it goes through- it =makes the 4th of July look like a dud!! A sharp blade will help =also(make sure that you use carbide tips). I'm still in the R & D part of my beveler evolution, and have been =hand- planing my rough cuts- I'm glad that I'm getting better(read =faster) at that, since my beveler is working better in theory than =practice!!! John K.-----Original Message-----From: setissma Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:57 PMSubject: Medved Beveler- big trouble I am in the process of building a Medved Beveler. Trouble is, I =ran a few test pieces of cane through it, and the end result was flying =splinters. I thought that my router bit was sharp (it was almost new), =but am somewhat dismayed by the results I am getting. While there are =some obvious things I need to do, like strengthen the hold downs and =sharpen up the bit, has anyone had any experience tuning up a Beveler? I =am open to suggestions, other than "get out your plane and rough form". =I would like to make this work. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C0AC05.6ECE4640 I forgot to mention that you could also= springs on your hold downs. A tighter spring would helpreduce the = another member mentioned and would however result in requiring a little = feed pressure. Randall G. ----- Original Message ----- Randall= Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 = PMSubject: Re: Medved Beveler- = trouble I made the same type of beveler and = typical issues. I bought a high quality carbide router bit which = tightened the holddowns. I also tend to try to take less material off = single pass and increased the number of passes which helped alot. I = a sidebox connection to hook up my shop vac to help reduce the flying = issue. Also a person could add a top cover above the bit to reduce = the = very sharp and don't try to take too much material in a pass. = Randall R. Gregory NW AR. ----- Original Message ----- John Kenealy Cc: Rodmakers Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001= PMSubject: Re: Medved Beveler- = trouble A man after my own = starts to chatter as it goes through- it makes the 4th of July look = tips). I'm still in the R & D part of my beveler = better(read faster) at that, since my beveler is working better in = than practice!!! John K. -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:57 PMSubject: Medved = troubleI am in the process of building a = Beveler. Trouble is, I ran a few test pieces of cane through it, = end result was flying splinters. I thought that my router bit was = (it was almost new), but am somewhat dismayed by the results I am = While there are some obvious things I need to do, like strengthen = downs and sharpen up the bit, has anyone had any experience tuning = Beveler? I am open to suggestions, other than "get out your plane = rough form". I would like to make this work. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C0AC05.6ECE4640-- from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Mar 13 21:33:54 2001 f2E3Xse09238 Subject: Winners This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0ABA8.9BC1D200 weekend and entered the rod raffles.I have posted the winners on my web site.Click on the red button to see the winners.If you didn't enter, just delete this message. Tony Miller ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0ABA8.9BC1D200 booth thisweekend and entered the rod =raffles.I have posted the winners on my site. winners. message.Thanks Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0ABA8.9BC1D200-- from HomeyDKlown@att.net Tue Mar 13 21:34:30 2001 f2E3YUe09357 ;Wed, 14 Mar 2001 03:34:27 +0000 Subject: RE: hookkeepers Marty, The only problem I can see with that method is that you could nick theleader with the hook point without even knowing it until that monster trouthits your fly and turns abruptly. At that point it's all over! SNAP! Byebye fish! Ask me how I know... Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: hookkeepers Ralph, I don't like hookeepers and can't understand why anyone would putsuch a useless piece of hardware on a rod. When a fisherman uses ahookeeperto lets say change fishing locations the loop or knot at the leader/lineconnection is reeled into the tiptop guide and down a snake or two dependingon the rod / leader length. Now when the fisherman wants to make a cast heunhooks the fly and fights with the line to get the knot out of the guides.The way I do it is to wrap the leader/line around the back of the reel andhook the fly on the stripper guide or the next snake. The knot stays out ofthe tiptop ready for the next cast. But, to each his own! Marty Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. Does everyone use them?What type do you guys like - strap and ring, or what? If'n I wanted toget by cheap and dirty, what kind of homebrew might do the trick well?hmmmm? Only on #4, and it doesn't have one yet. I've used the strap and ringapproach (gets all clogged up when dipping), and the English hook tenderthingys that are "fixed", and it's not bad, but isn't all goodness andlight, either. Bought a cute folding Fuji in a moment of confusion.(it would REALLY get varnish gunked, and besides, it seems to be more Maybe there's a better mousetrap?...... regards, all - mac from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Mar 13 21:47:02 2001 f2E3l1e09851 Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:47:00 -0800 Subject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble Randall, and other Router Beveler fans, How many passes are we talking about? Say starting withnice, straight, 1/4" strips, are we talking a half-dozentrips through, or a dozen, or a hundred? Just curious, Harry Randall Gregory wrote: I forgot to mention that you could also change the springson your hold downs. A tighter spring would helpreduce thechatter as another member mentioned and would howeverresult in requiring a little more feed pressure. RandallG. --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from richjez@enteract.com Tue Mar 13 21:47:05 2001 f2E3l5e09862 Subject: Lathe Parts --=====================_5276375==_.ALT OK, I got a wood lathe. The school's wood shop wad one they weren't using. You don't want to know the price. :-)))) If fact I doubled the asking price. It is an old Atlas.The front of the tailstock is broke. The bearings are shot but it came with new bearings that I need to install. It needs a chuck. The business manager thinks he can fix the tailstock by using a pipe cap onit. Does anyone know what I am getting into replacing the bearings? Also, any suggestions on where to get a 3 jay chuck. Maybe a tailstock if the fix doesn't work. Thanks Rich Jezioro*________________________________)// Rich Jezioro@/||/____/||_________________________________________||/\))):> > ))):>-- =====================_5276375==_.ALT OK, I got a wood lathe. The school's wood shop wad one theyweren't using. You don't want to know the price. :-)))) If fact I doubledthe asking price. It is an old Atlas.The front of the tailstock is broke. The bearings areshot but it came with new bearings that I need to install. It needs achuck. The business manager thinks he can fix the tailstock by using a pipe capon it. Does anyone know what I am getting into replacing the bearings? Also, anysuggestions on where to get a 3 jay chuck. Maybe a tailstock if the fixdoesn't work. Thanks Rich Jezioro *_____________ ___________________) @/ ||/ ____/||_________________________________________ p;/\ ; / bsp; --=====================_5276375==_.ALT-- from goodaple@tcac.net Tue Mar 13 21:53:41 2001 f2E3ree10235 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 licensed1ebd4f8b91132ed01cf0e3e933da025) 0600 Subject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble Organization: Harry, Just guessing because I have never really counted but I would say Iaverage 4-5 passes. Not too many really. Of course how thick you split yourstrips into makes a big difference as well. The thicker the strip the morepasses obviously. I don't try to rush the process but I rough out a rod in(GUESSING) about a half hour. These strips are usually close to final taperon one end. (Not REAL close) but a definite time saver. Randall G. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble Randall, and other Router Beveler fans, How many passes are we talking about? Say starting withnice, straight, 1/4" strips, are we talking a half-dozentrips through, or a dozen, or a hundred? Just curious, Harry Randall Gregory wrote: I forgot to mention that you could also change the springson your hold downs. A tighter spring would helpreduce thechatter as another member mentioned and would howeverresult in requiring a little more feed pressure. RandallG. --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Tue Mar 13 21:56:07 2001 f2E3u7e10473 f2E3u9N08605 Subject: Cortland Bamboo Does anyone own a Cortland Bamboo? 6'6", maybe, impregnated. Pleaseemail off list. Thanks, Bob from goodaple@tcac.net Tue Mar 13 22:00:29 2001 f2E40Se10706 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 licensed1ebd4f8b91132ed01cf0e3e933da025) 0600 Subject: Re: Lathe Parts Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C0AC09.64B46140 Try Clausing Industrial or Blue ridge Mountain. I beleive they have =websites. Regretfully I don't have them quickly available. I know they =have 3 jaw chuck for metal lathes. For a wood lathe maybe a Nova chuck =would work? Try Woodcraft.WWW.woodcraft.com Good luck, RandallGregory Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:54 PMSubject: Lathe Parts OK, I got a wood lathe. The school's wood shop wad one they weren't =using. You don't want to know the price. :-)))) If fact I doubled the = It is an old Atlas.The front of the tailstock is broke. The bearings =are shot but it came with new bearings that I need to install. It needs =a chuck. The business manager thinks he can fix the tailstock by using a pipe =cap on it. Does anyone know what I am getting into replacing the bearings? Also, =any suggestions on where to get a 3 jay chuck. Maybe a tailstock if the =fix doesn't work. Thanks Rich Jezioro*________________________________)/ @/||/____/||_________________________________________ ))):> > = ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C0AC09.64B46140 Try Clausing Industrial or Blue ridge = beleive they have websites. Regretfully I don't have them quickly = know they have 3 jaw chuck for metal lathes. For a wood lathe maybe a = Gregory ----- Original Message ----- Jezioro Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 = PMSubject: Lathe PartsOK, I got a wood lathe. The school's = one they weren't using. You don't want to know the price. :-)))) If = tailstock is broke. The bearings are shot but it came with new = need to install. It needs a chuck.The business manager thinks = fix the tailstock by using a pipe cap on it.Does anyone know = getting into replacing the bearings? Also, any suggestions on where to = = = = ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C0AC09.64B46140-- from cadams46@juno.com Tue Mar 13 22:02:01 2001 f2E420e10965 23:00:57 EST Subject: Re:hookkeepers I personally like hookkeepers. I've used the ring and strap model andthe U shaped type, but I really prefer the single foot snake guides. Ithink they look pretty good and I really like to have one. I didconsider Garrison's drawback but I have yet to stab my self and besidesup here we usuall use size 14 or so. Just my opinion.Sincerely,C.R. Adams P.S. is anyone going to be at Doug Miller's Sports expo at the SouthtownExpo center in Salt Lake this week? Just curious. from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Mar 13 22:05:22 2001 f2E45Le11229 2001 20:05:24 PST Subject: Re: hookkeepers don't use them. timothy --- Ralph MacKenzie wrote:Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. Doeseveryone use them? ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Mar 13 22:16:04 2001 f2E4G3e11747 2001 20:16:06 PST Subject: Re: hookkeepers "rod 'akers" ralph, i mean, i don't use them. if you like them youuse them. like rodney said "....looks good on youtho'!" contrary to what it may seem at times, there are nobamboo police. timothy --- Ralph MacKenzie wrote:OK. I won't! ;-))) Seems to be the consensus of"the pros". I don'tthink I'll worry too much about nicking a leader. I'm never luckyenough to get anything on big enough to break it,even if it were.hahahahahaha thanks, mac timothy troester wrote: don't use them. timothy --- Ralph MacKenzie wrote:Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. Doeseveryone use them? ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at greatprices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Mar 13 22:19:10 2001 f2E4J9e11980 2001 20:19:08 PST Subject: Re: Tempering william, you are an einstein! you hit the nail righton the head! yep yep yep! timothy --- WILLIAM HARMS wrote:Well, I believe in karma. But I'm not convincedthat karma applies to flyrods. I think the properties of fly rods areprobably governed byprinciples of physics--though we may not know whichones. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Kling, Barry W." Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:28 PMSubject: RE: Tempering I'm pretty sure this was karma, not physics. -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 4:22 PM ServeSubject: Re: Tempering I've been watching this thread with someinterest and would like tointerject a little experience that happened to melast year. Had a 7' 5wt,of mine, took it to the river. Well, as you allknow, I'm not the pictureof grace and I fell (unusual, huh? *S*) and brokethe first snake up fromthe stripper. I fished it like that for the day,went home with it thatnight, cut the wraps off of that area, rewrapped anew snake in place, putacouple of coats of varnish on the wraps, and whenthose dried, but it backin the tube. Next time I went fishing with it, Inoticed a slight kickwhere I had repaired the wrap. Again, just fishedit, and put just atouchof heat to it and fixed the kick that night athome. Third time out, samething happened again! Rod would take a very sharpset at that point andONLY at that point, where the guide had beenbroken, and I could slightlyheat and straighten it and it would be fine untilI got it out of thehouseagain (very low humidity in this house) and on thewater.What I finally did was got out the 10X glass,looked it over and thevarnish had not filled in around the feet wherethey go under the guide(myfault, I didn't put enough on them) and the ONLYthing I could figure out,is that moisture was re-entering the cane at thatpoint. Sat andwonderedwhat to do... I decided to put that puppy in myheat treating oven at lowtemp on and stew it for awhile, so I did... can'tremember the temp or thetime, but just for arguments sake, lets say 200degrees for 30 minutes.After it cooled, it was still straight, so I putit on the turner and put3or four coats of varnish on the wraps then dippedthe section, just tomakesure that the rod wasn't gaining any more moisturethrough the gaps Ileft.Guess what... that rod probably caught 200plus fish and never, EVERtook any sort of a set or kink in that area again.This may not beempiricalevidence, it may not be scientific, and there maybe another explanationthat someone can come up with as to WHY it took aset only where the guidehad been replaced and was not properly sealed, ANDto why it never tookevenso much micro set in that very same place after Ilow temp cooked the caneto dry it and properly sealed it with varnish thenredipped the section.Ifyou got an explanation, I'll listen, but rightnow, from my point, goodvarnish not only makes a rod look good, it makes arod STAY good... andstraight...I'll admit that varnish is completelyimpervious to moisture... thenagain, NOTHING is, not even our ever so wondefulwater"proof" epoxies andglues that we use to put these things together,HOWEVER, they do holdmoisture exchange down to so low of a level, thatif the rod isn't left onthe water or in the water for a greatly extendedperiod of time... whatamount of time, I don't know, but I do know thatif it isn't sealed, eventhough the cane will not pick up a very largepercentage of moistureoverall, it did seem obvious in this particularcase that moisturereentering the cane at one specific point only,made a great deal ofdifference and showed what to me, was a graveproblem! Varnish Does Matter!Just my opinion... Bob -----Original Message-----From: Kling, Barry W. Cc: rodmakers Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 3:51 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Bill -- I appreciate what you say about no varnish beingtruly waterproof forlong.I'm sure you're right that tempered canere-absorbs some water, no matterwhat the coating. What I'm not convinced of iswhether this matters --whether a well tempered rod actually changes inaction due to this kindofabsorption/redrying. So far I haven't seen that. I recently fished with unvarnished rods (2different rods of verydifferentlengths, varnish on wraps only) in various statesof moistness. I fishedwith them soon after varnishing the wraps andthen hanging them in adryingcloset over night at 160 deg F. I got them wetwhile fishing in an alldayrain. I dried them out again in the dryingcloset. I let them sit in amoistmidwestern basement for a few weeks. Through allthese changes I couldn'ttell any gross difference in action, though ofcourse there may have beenslight differences measurable in a lab. They weremade from bambootempered only varnish on them wasonthe wraps. I'm not saying there aren't any rods that softendue to moisture andreturnto better action when dried. I've read credibleaccounts of such things.Butso far my experience suggests this may not havebeen due to a bad finish,but perhaps to incompletely tempered bamboo. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:02 PM avyoung@iinet.net.au === message truncated === ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Mar 13 22:26:11 2001 f2E4QAe12401 Subject: Re: hookkeepers John,I agree with you. I like the way the strap and ring hookkeeper looks on a rod. It has that traditional appeal. Now I said i liked the look but I do not use my hookkeepers to hold any flies. I wrap the leader around the reel and stick the fly on one of the lower guides, depending on the size of the fly. You will never get a size 24-28 midge on that stripping guide.Bret from piscator@macatawa.org Tue Mar 13 22:43:03 2001 f2E4h3e12888 Subject: Re: hookkeepers I'm with Harry on this. Unless someone begs, I leave 'em off. Brian from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Tue Mar 13 22:50:30 2001 f2E4oSe13189 Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:49:55 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) fbcwin@3g.quik.com,mrmac@tcimet.net Subject: RE: hookkeepers I thought trout were born with mouths so we didn't need hook-keepers : )Mike from piscator@macatawa.org Tue Mar 13 23:04:17 2001 f2E54Ge13615 "RodMakers List \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: Tempering Fly rods and other fun -n -funky things are not Karmic, and physics onlyapplies around the edges. These things are possesed of "WA," which is foundin all things not possessed of a karma for reasons I can't guess at, onlyaccept. I think a portion of our Chi is invested in these things we make,and the residual Chi is manifested as "WA." A rod that is particularlysweet is said to be possessed of good WA. A bad one has no WA, and so on. Trust me, some friends and I worked this all out in college back in the'70's during several periods of enhanced consciousness that involved wearingLittle Kings boxes for hats and various other elements I'm not at liberty togo into here. "WA" covers it all. Brian from saweiss@flash.net Tue Mar 13 23:44:17 2001 f2E5iGe14962 f2E5iH3165190 0500 Subject: Re: hookkeepers Organization: Prodigy Internet Right on, John! When you become a real pain in the ass, then maybe you caneven be a nationally famous rodmaker.Steve Ralph;I use a strap and ring, the other kinds don't look right on a bamboo rodtome and as far as I am concerned, a rod looks incomplete without one, thosewho don't like it, don't have to use it. As opinionated as I am getting,I'mbeginning to think I might make a rodmaker someday.John from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Mar 14 00:09:58 2001 f2E69ve16029 Subject: Re: hookkeepers Hello to all,What really drives me to using hook keepers is to provide a natural place tokeep the fly so that the owner won't stick it in the cork and ruin aperfectly good high quality handle like I've seen done so often. Now havingsaid that I do prefer the traditional ring and strap. It helps to place thekeeper one flat off from being in line with the reel seat so that the flyline does not hang up on it while casting. Then too I think the appearanceis best when the full thread wrap is used under the keeper so there is nothread gap between the two ends of the strap. This also makes the ringstandstraight out but can be folded down if desired. I dip the rod including thekeeper and blow off the varnish film with a squeeze bulb when it comes upout of the varnish. If the ring is loose under the strap a needle or pin canbe used to hold it away from the rod during the finishing. I believe it addsa nice touch and customers seem to like it.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: hookkeepers Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. Does everyone use them?What type do you guys like - strap and ring, or what? If'n I wanted toget by cheap and dirty, what kind of homebrew might do the trick well?hmmmm? Only on #4, and it doesn't have one yet. I've used the strap and ringapproach (gets all clogged up when dipping), and the English hook tenderthingys that are "fixed", and it's not bad, but isn't all goodness andlight, either. Bought a cute folding Fuji in a moment of confusion.(it would REALLY get varnish gunked, and besides, it seems to be more Maybe there's a better mousetrap?...... regards, all - mac from ajthramer@hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 02:06:02 2001 f2E861e19674 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:05:58 -0800 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:05:58 GMT Subject: Re: hookkeepers FILETIME=[9A181760:01C0AC5D] I always put one on the rod, never use one myself though. I use a strap and ring (closed), a homemade version of the English hook tender sometimes and my favorite, a homemade version of John Weir's pin and ring.A.J.Thramer Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. Does everyone use them?What type do you guys like - strap and ring, or what? If'n I wanted toget by cheap and dirty, what kind of homebrew might do the trick well?hmmmm? Only on #4, and it doesn't have one yet. I've used the strap and ringapproach (gets all clogged up when dipping), and the English hook tenderthingys that are "fixed", and it's not bad, but isn't all goodness andlight, either. Bought a cute folding Fuji in a moment of confusion.(it would REALLY get varnish gunked, and besides, it seems to be more Maybe there's a better mousetrap?...... regards, all - mac _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from CALucker@aol.com Wed Mar 14 03:04:44 2001 f2E94he21092 Subject: Re: hookkeepers If I use a hookkeeper at all it is the FE Thomas style floppy NS ring attached to the forecheck by a loop of NS wire.Chris Lucker from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Mar 14 04:53:52 2001 f2EArpe23644 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: RE: Medved Beveler- big trouble This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 8EC89B12E0EB21EBAE19C1F7 --------------8EC89B12E0EB21EBAE19C1F7 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble --------------CDD46285D25F52B0596C8DFC Jeff,check the rotation of your router bit. The bit should bite down on thebamboonot lift and tear when you feed it in, I had to change the direction of feed onmyMedved beveller when I built it, which also means changing the slope of thefeedtray. I believe Al said he had changed the feed direction from the planstoo??? Thereare pictures with detailed notes of what I did to mineon....www.shawnsbamboopage.eboard.comSharp bits, not taking too much on each pass, and smooth constantfeed speedhelp. I don't find excessive spring pressure to be of any benefit though withstraight, well pressed strips. Don't give up, Al has designed a very good toolhere,just needs some tweaking and practice by the sounds of things.Harry, to answer your question, I take anywhere from 5-10 passes perstripdepending on my rod taper. I leave a fudge factor for hand planing after anda coupleinches of extra bamboo on each end as you will get some tearing at the tailend asthe bamboo comes out of the feed table and the router bit lifts the fibres.Hope this helps,Shawnsetissma wrote: I am in the process of building a Medved Beveler. Trouble is, I ran a fewtestpieces of cane through it, and the end result was flying splinters. I thoughtthatmy router bit was sharp (it was almost new), but am somewhat dismayed results I am getting. While there are some obvious things I need to do, likestrengthen the hold downs and sharpen up the bit, has anyone had anyexperiencetuning up a Beveler? I am open to suggestions, other than "get out yourplane andrough form". I would like to make this work. Jeff --------------CDD46285D25F52B0596C8DFC Jeff, routerbit. The bit should bite down on the bamboo not lift and tear when youfeed it in, I had to change the direction of feed on my Medved bevellerwhen I built it, which also means changing the slope of the feed tray.I believe Al said he had changed the feed direction from the plans too???There are pictures with detailed notes of what I did to mine www.shawnsbamboopage.eboard.com takingtoo much on each pass, and smooth constant feed speed help. I don't findexcessive spring pressure to be of any benefit though with straight, pressed strips. Don't give up, Al has designed a very good tool here, justneeds some tweaking and practice by the sounds of things. yourquestion, I take anywhere from 5-10 passes per strip depending on my rodtaper. I leave a fudge factor for hand planing after and a couple inchesof extra bamboo on each end as you will get some tearing at the tail endas the bamboo comes out of the feed table and the router bit lifts thefibres. Shawnsetissma wrote: Iam in the process of building a Medved Beveler. Trouble is, I ran a fewtest pieces of cane through it, and the end result was flying splinters.I thought that my router bit was sharp (it was almost new), but amsomewhatdismayed by the results I am getting. While there are some obvious thingsI need to do, like strengthen the hold downs and sharpen up the bit, hasanyone had any experience tuning up a Beveler? I am open to suggestions,other than "get out your plane and rough form". I would like to make this --------------CDD46285D25F52B0596C8DFC-- --------------8EC89B12E0EB21EBAE19C1F7-- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Mar 14 06:10:24 2001 f2ECALe25416 Subject: planes and sharpening. I just took a look at Wooden Boat #158 which is either the current or lastissue and saw an article on hand planes and sharpening.The part about planes wont be that exciting because it's mainly related tojointer and bench planes but there is an article on sharpening and this isworth a look.The technique uses a very flat section of MDF and diamond paste. Lookspretty interesting to me. The article is only small so you should be ableto browse it easily enough in the news stand without any worry. Tony/*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igive express permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward this message. /*************************************************************************/ from brigade@ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 14 06:47:54 2001 f2EClre26456 Subject: Silk Fly Lines Several weeks ago I was discussing silk lines with a local Colorado rodbuilder and he told me that he had been contacted by Cortland reps on acouple of occassions this last winter regarding Cortland re-entering thesilk line market. They still have the machinery from the past when theymadesilk lines. The word is they will bring out two different gradesof line. Outrider from bamboo@pa.net Wed Mar 14 07:15:57 2001 f2EDFue27083 0500 Subject: One Piece Rod This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C0AC60.8910EE80 Would the gentleman who provided me with the T&T one piece 6' taper be =so kind as to send it to me again as I got a little happy with the =delete button this morning. Thanks Bill ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C0AC60.8910EE80 Would the gentleman who provided me = T&T one piece 6' taper be so kind as to send it to me again as I got = Bill ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C0AC60.8910EE80-- from danny.twang@pd.no Wed Mar 14 07:15:59 2001 f2EDFve27087 +0100 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; m18)Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines Why don't we start a massive request for silklines from them.....................danny Daniel Sedergren wrote:Severalweeks ago I was discussing silk lines with a local Colorado rodbuilder andhe told me that he had been contacted by Cortland reps on acouple ofoccassions this last winter regarding Cortland re- entering thesilk linemarket. They still have the machinery from the past when theymadesilk lines. The word is they will bring out two different gradesofline.Outrider from fquinchat@locl.net Wed Mar 14 07:56:13 2001 f2EDuCe28014 Subject: Fw: e-mail Anyone in the Chicago area that would be interested in doing a seminar onApril 7 should check out the link below. I can't make it. Dennis-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: e-mail Hello Dennis Jerry Drake gave your name(and mine) to the dupage rivers fly tiers, theywould like to have a bamboo rodmaking seminar during their show.The show is on april 7 and I cannot make it.Are you interested? no money involved but they will supply a booth.If not, do you know anyone who would be? http://www.dupageriversflytyers.org/DRIFTFrame01.html Rick from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Wed Mar 14 08:35:08 2001 f2EEZ7e29542 Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0AC6A.39EE4000 I'm a Cortland dealer- I'll talk to my sales rep about it and see what I canfind out. John K.-----Original Message-----From: Danny Twang Cc: Rod Makers List Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 8:17 AMSubject: Re: Silk Fly Lines Why don't we start a massive request for silk lines fromthem.....................danny Daniel Sedergren wrote: Several weeks ago I was discussing silk lines with a local Coloradorodbuilder and he told me that he had been contacted by Cortland reps onacouple of occassions this last winter regarding Cortland re-enteringthesilk line market. They still have the machinery from the past whentheymade silk lines. The word is they will bring out two different gradesofline.Outrider ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0AC6A.39EE4000 I'm a Cortland dealer- I'll talk to = about it and see what I can find out. John K. -----Original = Makers List <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Wednesday, March 14, 2001 8:17 AMSubject: Re: Silk = LinesWhy don't we start a massive request for= lines from them.....................dannyDaniel Sedergren =wrote:Several weeks ago I was discussing silk lines with a =local Colorado rodbuilder and he told me that he had been contacted = regarding Cortland re-entering thesilk line market. They still have =the machinery from the past when theymade silk lines. The word is =they will bring out two different gradesof =line.Outrider ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0AC6A.39EE4000-- from dannyt@frisurf.no Wed Mar 14 08:42:27 2001 f2EEgQe00032 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:42:09 +0100 (MET)User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook- Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines Rodmakers This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does notunderstandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3067429320_13914_MIME_Part I couldnt find any e-mail address, so I've posted a letter today........danny Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines I'm a Cortland dealer- I'll talk to my sales rep about it and see what I canfind out. John K.-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines Why don't we start a massive request for silk lines fromthem.....................danny Daniel Sedergren wrote:Several weeks ago I was discussing silk lines with a local Colorado rodbuilder and he told me that he had been contacted by Cortland reps on acouple of occassions this last winter regarding Cortland re-entering thesilk line market. They still have the machinery from the past when theymade silk lines. The word is they will bring out two different gradesof line. Outrider --MS_Mac_OE_3067429320_13914_MIME_Part Re: Silk Fly Lines I couldnt find any e-mail address, so I've posted a letter today........danny From: "John Kenealy"<mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:36:20 -0500 Cc: "Rod Makers List" Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines I'm a Cortland dealer- I'll talk to my salesrep=about it and see what I can find out. John K.-----Original Messa=ge----- Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 8:17 AMSubject: Re: Silk Fly Lines Why don't we start a massive request forsilk li=nes from them.....................danny Daniel Sedergren wrote:Several weeks ago I was discussing silk lines with a local Colo=rado rod on=acouple of occassions this last winter regarding Cortland re-entering the ey of line. Outrider --MS_Mac_OE_3067429320_13914_MIME_Part-- from jmpio@nhbm.com Wed Mar 14 08:51:04 2001 f2EEp3e00563 Subject: RE: hookkeepers I like the strap and ring type. I don't dip so that's not a problem for me.But since I don't have a local source for them, I occasionally use thelittle "suitcase handle" type, though I despise them for their aesthetics.I have a small (1/0 size) single foot guide left over from a plastic rod,and I am thinking of using it as a hook keeper, just to try a differentlook. -----Original Message----- Subject: hookkeepers Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. Does everyone use them?What type do you guys like - strap and ring, or what? If'n I wanted toget by cheap and dirty, what kind of homebrew might do the trick well?hmmmm? Only on #4, and it doesn't have one yet. I've used the strap and ringapproach (gets all clogged up when dipping), and the English hook tenderthingys that are "fixed", and it's not bad, but isn't all goodness andlight, either. Bought a cute folding Fuji in a moment of confusion.(it would REALLY get varnish gunked, and besides, it seems to be more Maybe there's a better mousetrap?...... regards, all - mac from nobler@satx.rr.com Wed Mar 14 08:52:25 2001 f2EEqJe00723 Subject: Re:hookkeepers Ring and strap type for me, and cost no object,GMA from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Mar 14 08:52:27 2001 (may be forged)) f2EEqRe00732 (5.5.2653.19) "RodMakers List (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Tempering All I can say is that you're a lousy Hindu. Actually that was just my jokingway of agreeing that the complexity of our questions (especially that ofNunley's survival past childhood) is presently beyond me. I think all I'mreally saying is that it's fine to have unanswered questions and even betterto recognize them as such. It's great when people enjoy observing rodmakingtradition, then there are some who like to discover things for themselves,and most of us do some of both. After all, most of our ancient traditions inbamboo rodmaking are only a few decades old and the most "traditional"adhesives in common use were developed at about the time of the ManhattanProject. Premature certainty is bad manners or even worse. -----Original Message----- (E-mail)Subject: Re: Tempering Well, I believe in karma. But I'm not convinced that karma applies to flyrods. I think the properties of fly rods are probably governed byprinciples of physics--though we may not know which ones. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Tempering I'm pretty sure this was karma, not physics. -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 4:22 PM Subject: Re: Tempering I've been watching this thread with some interest and would like tointerject a little experience that happened to me last year. Had a 7' 5wt,of mine, took it to the river. Well, as you all know, I'm not the pictureof grace and I fell (unusual, huh? *S*) and broke the first snake up fromthe stripper. I fished it like that for the day, went home with it thatnight, cut the wraps off of that area, rewrapped a new snake in place, putacouple of coats of varnish on the wraps, and when those dried, but it backin the tube. Next time I went fishing with it, I noticed a slight kickwhere I had repaired the wrap. Again, just fished it, and put just atouchof heat to it and fixed the kick that night at home. Third time out, samething happened again! Rod would take a very sharp set at that point andONLY at that point, where the guide had been broken, and I could slightlyheat and straighten it and it would be fine until I got it out of thehouseagain (very low humidity in this house) and on the water.What I finally did was got out the 10X glass, looked it over and thevarnish had not filled in around the feet where they go under the guide(myfault, I didn't put enough on them) and the ONLY thing I could figure out,is that moisture was re-entering the cane at that point. Sat andwonderedwhat to do... I decided to put that puppy in my heat treating oven at lowtemp on and stew it for awhile, so I did... can't remember the temp or thetime, but just for arguments sake, lets say 200 degrees for 30 minutes.After it cooled, it was still straight, so I put it on the turner and put3or four coats of varnish on the wraps then dipped the section, just tomakesure that the rod wasn't gaining any more moisture through the gaps Ileft.Guess what... that rod probably caught 200 plus fish and never, EVERtook any sort of a set or kink in that area again. This may not beempiricalevidence, it may not be scientific, and there may be another explanationthat someone can come up with as to WHY it took a set only where theguidehad been replaced and was not properly sealed, AND to why it never tookevenso much micro set in that very same place after I low temp cooked thecaneto dry it and properly sealed it with varnish then redipped the section.Ifyou got an explanation, I'll listen, but right now, from my point, goodvarnish not only makes a rod look good, it makes a rod STAY good... andstraight...I'll admit that varnish is completely impervious to moisture... thenagain, NOTHING is, not even our ever so wondeful water"proof" epoxies andglues that we use to put these things together, HOWEVER, they do holdmoisture exchange down to so low of a level, that if the rod isn't left onthe water or in the water for a greatly extended period of time... whatamount of time, I don't know, but I do know that if it isn't sealed, eventhough the cane will not pick up a very large percentage of moistureoverall, it did seem obvious in this particular case that moisturereentering the cane at one specific point only, made a great deal ofdifference and showed what to me, was a grave problem! Varnish Does Matter!Just my opinion... Bob -----Original Message-----From: Kling, Barry W. Cc: rodmakers Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 3:51 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Bill -- I appreciate what you say about no varnish being truly waterproof forlong.I'm sure you're right that tempered cane re-absorbs some water, nomatterwhat the coating. What I'm not convinced of is whether this matters --whether a well tempered rod actually changes in action due to this kindofabsorption/redrying. So far I haven't seen that. I recently fished with unvarnished rods (2 different rods of verydifferentlengths, varnish on wraps only) in various states of moistness. I fishedwith them soon after varnishing the wraps and then hanging them in adryingcloset over night at 160 deg F. I got them wet while fishing in an alldayrain. I dried them out again in the drying closet. I let them sit in amoistmidwestern basement for a few weeks. Through all these changes Icouldn'ttell any gross difference in action, though of course there may have beenslight differences measurable in a lab. They were made from bambootempered wasonthe wraps. I'm not saying there aren't any rods that soften due to moisture andreturnto better action when dried. I've read credible accounts of such things.Butso far my experience suggests this may not have been due to a badfinish,but perhaps to incompletely tempered bamboo. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:02 PM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering All, Moisture in cane (as in wood) is of two kinds, "bound" water and "free"water. The former is trapped, in a sense, within the cell structure andisalso called "inter-cellular" moisture. The latter is distributed freelybetween the cells and is called "intra-cellular" moisture. Heat treating the cane will drive out both types of moisture, as it willalso alter the nature of the resins (in some fashion we are not entirelycertain of) surrounding the dryed-out cells. The value of heat treatingourcane is, then, is that once the bound moisture is driven from theinter-cellular structures, it cannot be re-absorbed at some later date,asthe cell structure itself has been toughened (perhaps polymerized--or wemight say, cross-linked). On the other hand, intra-cellular moisture("freewater") will indeed re-enter the cane upon every available opportunity.Agood dunking in the water, fishing in the rain, and, yes, even changes inambient humidy will all provide occasions for the cane to re-absorb freemoisture. Apart from aesthetic reasons, this is why we apply a good finish to ourrods. That said, we should also note that there is not a finishingmaterialavailable in God's world that can prevent moisture (water vapor orhumidity) from passing through that film. But this works both ways, folks. Justasmoisture can enter a varnished rod on its own, so will it leave on itsownwhen ambient humidity allows for it to do so. We can dry a rod out asodden rod once again and restore its action by slowly removing the "freemoisture." As to "protection," then, we have to realize that this can never be morethan a relative term. We can have pretty good protection againstmoisturemigration, and we can have very little protection. What we CANNOT have,however, is anything even vaguely approaching a "seal". As it happens, the best protection comes from two coats of a highpolyurethane (additional coats add little). Next best is three coats ofslightly thinned, alkyd, spar varnish. Third in line (but not very closetothe first two), come the various "rubbing oils," with tung providingbetterprotection than linseed. Actually, these rubbing-oil finishes are notpureoils at all, but are already polymerized in some fashion, and also maycontain dryers, resins or alkyds). Offering the very least protection(indeed, nearly negligible) are the pure oil finishes. Lastly, we need to put another myth to rest. Wax adds nothing as far aspreventing the passage of water vapor is concerned. Sorry, folks. Waxwillprotect your finish, to be sure, and will help to keep your rod in nicecondition, but it does nothing to help with potential moisture migration. So, the bottom line is that any cane rod is vulnerable to becoming"loggy" from built-up moisture. After choosing our finish, the only trulyimportantcontribution we can make is to be certain that we take care of our rods.Avoid using the same rod repeatedly; dry your rods thoroughly after use;never, never store a rod in its tube, and; do not allow a rod to remainexposed to humid conditions for long periods of time. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Kling, Barry W." Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 8:24 PMSubject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with theimportanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heat temperingreducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition to thefactthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes maybewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard stories ofrodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this wasbecausetheywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing andwaterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough related thatagiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree oftempering(orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do with sugars inthebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes. Soit'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause much colorchangecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heating thatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this isaddressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with the list awiseold saying - hard won ignorance is the most persistent kind. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:02 PM Cc: Don & Sandy Andersen; rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing muchoftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as muchmoistureasitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisturecontenttoagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treatingisand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood hasbeenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood.Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's beenheatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heatingandallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past andthatis"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people haveprettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) theUSForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually seeinthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in thetopend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nicecountrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had everySundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and letallthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down thetrackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow Igotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few thingslikespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the pointisheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared partisground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and doisabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't havelignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinoussmellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically tothecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it'saone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is alotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you asthescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hardtoplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seemtohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soakitover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection comparedwitha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as itcouldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right lawsIgiveexpress permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from nobler@satx.rr.com Wed Mar 14 09:23:36 2001 f2EFNZe03187 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:12:57 -0600 "RodMakers List \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: Tempering After all this discussion, there seems little mystery that PHY proved manyyears ago, that his flame tempering of the culm made a marked difference.Later those with the back ground found that the lignin was fused in thecane, that changed its structure's bonding internally. Some comments thatPHY also gave a 15 min. burst of heat to roughed strips at 380 deg. F., havealso been expressed. I do recall a particular letter from Paul, stating that he had proved tohimself that his method was superior to all else he had tried. GMA from jmpio@nhbm.com Wed Mar 14 09:38:06 2001 f2EFc5e03929 Subject: Spline Placement Since the debate on tempering didn't get quite hot enough (yes, that was abad joke), I thought I'd ask another question sure to get some folks firedup. How many of you actually go through the Garrison gymnastics involved inspline placement? In other words, do you actually care whether the splinesare placed in the finished rod in the same relative position as they weresplit from the culm? Whether you do or you don't, do you think it actuallymatters? from zimmer@adams.net Wed Mar 14 10:06:21 2001 f2EG6Ke05058 Subject: Re: Tempering This is a discussion perfectly fitted to an evening at a Rodmakers gatheringwhilst quaffing a Cornelius keg full of my "Better than GuinessStout-Guiness stout brew" which also requires Karma (and no recipe...thatwould ruin the uncertainty of it all!). I thank you as I think I havelearned something...Randy Gnarly and twisty Bamboo splines full ofcantankerous and willful nodes...I love it so!RANDY ZIMMERMANzimmer@adams.netZIMMERMAN BROS., INC. SINCE 1915http://www.zimmermanbros.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Wed Mar 14 10:09:02 2001 f2EG91e05262 2001 08:09:03 PST Subject: Re: Spline Placement i do this probably95% of the time. i have made somerods for myself where i have mixed them all up.timothy --- jmpio@nhbm.com wrote:Since the debate on tempering didn't get quite hotenough (yes, that was abad joke), I thought I'd ask another question sureto get some folks firedup. How many of you actually go through theGarrison gymnastics involved inspline placement? In other words, do you actuallycare whether the splinesare placed in the finished rod in the same relativeposition as they weresplit from the culm? Whether you do or you don't,do you think it actuallymatters? ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from caneman@clnk.com Wed Mar 14 10:11:38 2001 f2EGBbe05517 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:11:38 -0600 Subject: Fw: Spline Placement My opinion. Strip arrangment is important to me, ONLY because the nodesdon't run a perfect circle around a culm. I don't particularly line up sixstrips that were side by side on the culm, rather, i go through the splits,pick out my best strips, match them to each other for node alignment.Problem with just picking an six for a section and going with it is that ifa node ring runs out a half an inch round the culm (I've seen them that badand worse) then there's no way you can get a get all your nodes aligned,especially if usuing a 3x3 method where you can see the aligmenment moreeasily. Make sense?Most likely, the strips that are side by side give you the bestalignment, but then again, some are not usable, due to worm holes,blemishes, node defects, etc., so many times it is impossible to get 6 side proper... Of course if you spiral or random stagger, makes on difference... Just my opinion, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Spline Placement Since the debate on tempering didn't get quite hot enough (yes, that was abad joke), I thought I'd ask another question sure to get some folks firedup. How many of you actually go through the Garrison gymnastics involvedinspline placement? In other words, do you actually care whether the splinesare placed in the finished rod in the same relative position as they weresplit from the culm? Whether you do or you don't, do you think it actuallymatters? from parataper@hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 10:31:39 2001 f2EGVce06478 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:31:35 -0800 HTTP; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:31:35 GMT FILETIME=[3C5D10C0:01C0ACA4] Hi, Is anyone familiar with the Dickerson 8015's castability/action as built from the posting in the archives. It seems like a 15 ferrule/.094 tip is a little light/heavy for a 7wt@70 ft. I am wanting to build a bass/light saltwater rod where I can install a swelled but, and don't won't to add one to a PHY parabolic or semi-parabolic, although I prefer that action. A long 7/short 8 would be ideal for my use. Another taper sugeation would be welcomed. I won't be casting too large or too heavy of a fly, and I am a very competent caster, if that helps. If I decide on the 8015, do I need to subtract for varnish from the taper, it didn't say. Thanks, Mark_________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Mar 14 10:40:13 2001 f2EGeCe07010 IAA27829 0800 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: Tempering sounds like way to much waky tabaky in the 70's. Been there and done it andat the and came to some great conclusion that made no sense later on. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:07 PM RodMakers List (E-mail)Subject: Re: Tempering Fly rods and other fun -n -funky things are not Karmic, and physics onlyapplies around the edges. These things are possesed of "WA," which isfoundin all things not possessed of a karma for reasons I can't guess at, onlyaccept. I think a portion of our Chi is invested in these things we make,and the residual Chi is manifested as "WA." A rod that is particularlysweet is said to be possessed of good WA. A bad one has no WA, and soon. Trust me, some friends and I worked this all out in college back in the'70's during several periods of enhanced consciousness that involvedwearingLittle Kings boxes for hats and various other elements I'm not at liberty togo into here. "WA" covers it all. Brian from dutcher@email.msn.com Wed Mar 14 12:34:22 2001 f2EIYHe11132 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:34:13 -0800 Subject: Cortland Silk Line Campagne This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C0AC72.69781320 FYI, The Cortland web site is www.cortlandline.com. The company does not listan e-mail address however, their postal address is as follows.Cortland Line CompanyPO Box 55883736 Kellogg RoadCortland, New York 13045-5588 If there is an interest in bringing back silk lines on a larger scalesand hopefully at a competitive price level I believe it would be beneficialto voice our individual support of such an enterprise. Regards, Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C0AC72.69781320 name="Richard R. Dutcher.vcf" filename="Richard R. Dutcher.vcf" BEGIN:VCARDVERSION:2.1N:Dutcher;Richard;R.FN:Richard R. DutcherNICKNAME:DickORG:Trumpet Methodology, Inc.TEL;WORK;VOICE:206- 660-1705ADR;WORK:;;P. O. Box 349;Brinnon;Washington;98320- 0349;USALABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P. O. Box349=3D0D=3D0ABrinnon, =Washington 98320- 0349=3D0D=3D0AUSAURL:URL:http://www.geckotech.com/dutcherEMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:dutcher@msn.comREV:20010314T183455ZEND:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C0AC72.69781320-- from fiveside@net-gate.com Wed Mar 14 13:21:50 2001 f2EJLne13183 Subject: new Subject To the ListJust to talk about something other than tempering for a while, let me askabout a subject that has sometimes been troublesome when I'm careless.Whatare your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure nice clean, crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill from jerryy@webtv.net Wed Mar 14 13:30:17 2001 f2EJUGe13662 (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id LAA24470; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:30:16 - ETAsAhRBCKAzuq8v+JiToclP/Dgu3I+w9QIUNnLZSEfB9j9ztAGQMDEcfFz8JJk= Subject: Re: new Subject Bill - I always use an Exacto fine blade razor saw with their miter box.Doesn't tear up the ends and they are square. Regards, Jerry Young from anglport@con2.com Wed Mar 14 13:36:02 2001 f2EJZue14108 Subject: Re: new Subject Bill,I use the finest saw that X-acto makes. I cut each flat a bit and thensawthrough the rest of the way. I built a small "miter-box" (actually just an"L" shaped pair of small boards) and use that to hold and steady the rod.The end snaps off with a bit of a "teat" on it, but at least there's nosplintering.Seeya soon,Art At 02:18 PM 03/14/2001 -0500, Bill Fink wrote:To the ListJust to talk about something other than tempering for a while, let me askabout a subject that has sometimes been troublesome when I'm careless.Whatare your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure nice clean, crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 14 13:48:15 2001 f2EJmEe14791 Subject: Re: Lathe Parts Try Grizzley. They have chucks and a selection of back plates and adaptersto fit virtually all wood lathes. Go to www.grizzley.com. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com richjez@enteract.com wrote: OK, I got a wood lathe. The school's wood shop wad one theyweren't using. You don't want to know the price. :-)))) If fact I doubledthe asking price. It is an old Atlas.The front of the tailstock is broke. The bearings areshot but it came with new bearings that I need to install. It needs achuck. The business manager thinks he can fix the tailstock by using a pipe capon it. Does anyone know what I am getting into replacing the bearings? Also, anysuggestions on where to get a 3 jay chuck. Maybe a tailstock if the fixdoesn't work. Thanks Rich Jezioro *_____________ ___________________) / / Rich Jezioro @/ ||/ ____/||_________________________________________ || /\ ))):> ))):> from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 14 14:04:08 2001 f2EK47e15592 Subject: Re: new Subject I use a Dremmel tool with a cutoff disk(not a saw, a disk; one of those thatcomes 36 to a box). Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com fiveside@net-gate.com wrote:To the ListJust to talk about something other than tempering for a while, let me askabout a subject that has sometimes been troublesome when I'm careless.Whatare your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure nice clean, crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill from dryfly@erols.com Wed Mar 14 14:11:54 2001 f2EKBse15960 ([207.172.207.117] helo=erols.com) Subject: Re: new Subject Good discussion topic. I use a fine Dozuki saw for ferrule station and butt cuts but use a smalltriangle file for tip top cuts. Since the tops of the tips are much harder tohold while trying to get a saw started, I use the file. It is very easy to useand there is little to no chance of splintering the cane. I haven't yet gotthe nerve to do cutting on a lathe which I assume would provide the squarestcuts for ferrule stations Bob Bill Fink wrote: To the ListJust to talk about something other than tempering for a while, let me askabout a subject that has sometimes been troublesome when I'm careless.Whatare your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure nice clean, crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Mar 14 14:44:26 2001 f2EKiPe17228 Subject: Re: new Subject Bill,I use a fine toothed saw that I got with an Exacto set many years ago. It does a real nice job, if you remember to not try and saw completely from one side. Never did it but i had afriend try it that way. Nice splintering.Bret from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Mar 14 14:56:35 2001 f2EKuYe17809 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:56:31 -0800 Subject: Re: new Subject Hi Bill,Like Onis, I use a Dremel tool. But I use one of the larger, heavy dutycut-off disks. I find that they last several times as long as the smallerdisks. The cut is clean as a whistle. In fact, the little Dremel tool I ownis 23 years old, and one of the handiest gadgets in my shop. I reach for itall the time. Harry Bill Fink wrote: To the ListWhat are your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure niceclean,crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed Mar 14 14:56:49 2001 f2EKume17882 OAA18654 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 Subject: Re: new Subject I made a couple little cutoff boards (woodworkers have a name forthem, which I disremember), about 6x8 inches, with a lip onthe front edge that hooks on the bench and a fence at the backthat you hold the cane against. One has a fence at 120 deg forglued blanks and the other a fence at 60 deg for cutting individual strips.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from nobler@satx.rr.com Wed Mar 14 15:04:12 2001 f2EL47e18759 Subject: Re: new Subject I use a tool from the model airplane business called a Zona Saw. It's verysharp, and thin, and cuts very cleanly. Far better than a Xacto, etc..GMA from nobler@satx.rr.com Wed Mar 14 15:09:03 2001 f2EL92e19199 f2EKwQUd014620;Wed, 14 Mar 2001 14:58:26 -0600 Subject: Re: new Subject Don't lose that old Dremel Harry ! The crud they make now won't last a fullyear, if you use it much. Stall the weak motor 3 or 4 times, and thevariable speed unit burns out, as it only has a 1 Amp capacity ! Those old 2 ball bearing Dremel units weren't too bad, as I used them in themachine shop, and got by with only 3 a year. GMA from dannyt@frisurf.no Wed Mar 14 15:13:22 2001 f2ELDLe19593 +0100 (MET)User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh- Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: new Subject I use a fine jewelry saw........danny From: Frank Stetzer Subject: Re: new Subject I made a couple little cutoff boards (woodworkers have a name forthem, which I disremember), about 6x8 inches, with a lip onthe front edge that hooks on the bench and a fence at the backthat you hold the cane against. One has a fence at 120 deg forglued blanks and the other a fence at 60 deg for cuttingindividual strips.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from dannyt@frisurf.no Wed Mar 14 15:14:10 2001 f2ELE9e19732 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:14:04 +0100 (MET)User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook- Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne I used they snail mail address.......danny From: "Richard R. Dutcher" Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:34:56 -0800 Subject: Cortland Silk Line Campagne FYI, The Cortland web site is www.cortlandline.com. The company does not listan e-mail address however, their postal address is as follows.Cortland Line CompanyPO Box 55883736 Kellogg RoadCortland, New York 13045-5588 If there is an interest in bringing back silk lines on a larger scalesand hopefully at a competitive price level I believe it would be beneficialto voice our individual support of such an enterprise. Regards, Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com from atlflyfishing@mindspring.com Wed Mar 14 15:31:35 2001 f2ELVWe20605 Subject: rod making good afternoon ladies and gents I am new to the list, and after many years of making those other kinds offly rods I am now ready to start making some real fly rods. Some of youkind folks have supplied me with some of the equipment and tools and I amlooking foward to using them. Some help needed in these areas. I am in the process of building my forms(past life tool engineer JM Tull Steel) and I will finish tapping tonight. Iam going to make swell butt forms and would like some ideas about theamountof groove width for these forms. Also have purchsed two stanley 9.5 andhock blades. Does any one have experience with the new A2 Hock blades thatwould sway me from sharpening them per instructions that came with themandwhat is the scoop on rodmaker grooves on the planes. I have trued and tunedbut have not heard alot of discussion on merits of the groove, but i stillhave a lot of the archives to go yet. Thanks in advance Rickatlflyfishing@mindsping.com from stpete@netten.net Wed Mar 14 15:34:47 2001 f2ELYje20753 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:38:25 -0600 Subject: Re: hookkeepers No hookkeepers on my fishing poles. R.C. Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. Does everyone use them?What type do you guys like - strap and ring, or what? If'n I wanted toget by cheap and dirty, what kind of homebrew might do the trick well?hmmmm? Only on #4, and it doesn't have one yet. I've used the strap and ringapproach (gets all clogged up when dipping), and the English hook tenderthingys that are "fixed", and it's not bad, but isn't all goodness andlight, either. Bought a cute folding Fuji in a moment of confusion.(it would REALLY get varnish gunked, and besides, it seems to be more Maybe there's a better mousetrap?...... regards, all - mac from dannyt@frisurf.no Wed Mar 14 15:56:02 2001 f2ELu1e21673 +0100 (MET)User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh- Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: time for a new thread Hi all, Just to be clear, this is acctually not a new thread, it has been coverbefore..... but I did a test tonight. I took my standard iron from my Record91/2 and retempered it.I'm all new to this, but I gave it a try. here is what I did: I heated theiron to a nice red color (remember to turn of all ambient lights) imerged itinto a small cup of ordinary machine oil to cool of. Then I re sharpen itand tried it on some scrap piece of cane. Whow did that made a different!!!The iron against the cane start singing to me, like the brand new A2 iron Igot from Hock. Got me wonder if the investment was worth the $..... My advice is: If You have a spare iron, try it! You can't do much wrong onthis one, just be careful not to get the steel turn blue when heated..... regardsdanny from horsesho@ptd.net Wed Mar 14 16:08:20 2001 f2EM8Je22270 0000 Subject: Re: One Piece Rod --------------E17C3B1FEDA565E1DD8E7DBC Please send it to me also. Marty Bill Taylor wrote: Would the gentleman who provided me with the T&T one piece 6' taper beso kind as to send it to me again as I got a little happy with thedelete button this morning. Thanks Bill --------------E17C3B1FEDA565E1DD8E7DBC Please send it to me also. MartyBill Taylor wrote: Wouldthe gentleman who provided me with the T&T one piece 6' taper be sokind as to send it to me again as I got a little happy with the deletebutton this morning. Thanks Bill --------------E17C3B1FEDA565E1DD8E7DBC-- from horsesho@ptd.net Wed Mar 14 16:09:25 2001 f2EM9Oe22367 0000 Subject: Re: new Subject none wrote: I use a fine tooth Hacksaw for every thing except tips. For tips I rollthem with an Exacto knife. Marty Bill Fink wrote: To the ListJust to talk about something other than tempering for a while, let measkabout a subject that has sometimes been troublesome when I'm careless.Whatare your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure nice clean,crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill from Dennishigham@cs.com Wed Mar 14 16:17:44 2001 f2EMHhe22912 Subject: Re: light tapers Phil-Here's the Payne 95. I got this from Carlos Santos about three years ago. Carlos measures a rod with the tip of each section = to zero rather than in 5" increments with the rod assembled.The rod was measured over varnish.I've not built this so I have no opinion as to its action. The Payne catalogs only describe it as a 6', DT3 or 4 wt. Payne 95, 6', 2 piece, DT 3/4 wt Tip 0 = .048, 5 = .060, 10 = .075, 15 = .096, 20 = .104, 25 = .118, 30 = .122, 35 = .126 Butt 0 = .130, 5 = .138, 10 = .160, 15 = .173, 20 = .183, 25 = .201, 28 = .239 grip. I'm not sure how Carlos got the zero measurement on the butt since thatwould be under the ferrule. I'd guess that the .130 was at the base of the female ferrule with the assumption that the measurement would be constant underthe ferrule before the ferrule station was turned down ??? I don't have the 96 but would love to have it. Best, Dennis from dannyt@frisurf.no Wed Mar 14 16:26:31 2001 f2EMQUe23253 +0100 (MET)User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh- Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: One Piece Rod This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does notunderstandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3067457177_242322_MIME_Part Make it simple, post it to the List:-)danny Subject: Re: One Piece Rod Please send it to me also. Marty Bill Taylor wrote: Would the gentleman who provided me with the T&T one piece 6' taper be sokind as to send it to me again as I got a little happy with the deletebutton this morning. Thanks Bill --MS_Mac_OE_3067457177_242322_MIME_Part Re: One Piece Rod Make it simple, post it to the List:-)danny Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:08:51 -0500 Subject: Re: One Piece Rod Please send it to me also. Marty Bill Taylor wrote: Would thegentleman who provi=ded me with the T&T one piece 6' taper be so kind as to send it to meag=ain as I got a little happy with the delete button this morning. Thanks Bill= --MS_Mac_OE_3067457177_242322_MIME_Part-- from oborge@mwt.net Wed Mar 14 17:56:13 2001 f2ENuCe25834 Subject: FW: T@T 6' one Piece List,Richard sent this to me in Feb. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message----- Subject: T@T 6' one Piece Hi Olaf,Hope everything is well. I finally have that 6' one piece I promisedyou. Rich 1" .0645" .07510" .08815" .10320" .11425" .12730" .14035" .15040" .16045" .172 50" .18755" .19560" .213 Guides 53/4,113/4,18,241/2,311/8,381/4,461/2 from Rcolo@ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 14 18:26:41 2001 f2F0Qee26563 Subject: Re: FW: T@T 6' one Piece Thank you Olaf....Rich Olaf Borge wrote: List,Richard sent this to me in Feb. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 7:37 PM Subject: T@T 6' one Piece Hi Olaf,Hope everything is well. I finally have that 6' one piece I promisedyou. Rich 1" .0645" .07510" .08815" .10320" .11425" .12730" .14035" .15040" .16045" .17250" .18755" .19560" .213 Guides 53/4,113/4,18,241/2,311/8,381/4,461/2 from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Mar 14 18:27:55 2001 f2F0Rse26690 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:27:53 -0800 Subject: Re: rod making Okay Rick, here goes. First of all, welcome to the list. As you can see from our discussionslately, new ideas keep us going. We look forward to some wisdom from areal-life tool engineer. Before you cut an extra-wide groove in your forms for swelled butts, youmight want to try making a rod or two. I find that my standard forms can bepersuaded to open plenty wide enough for swelled butts. With a littlecreativeplacement of the strip in the forms, I can make the swell longer or shorter. I really don't remember the sharpening instructions that come with Hockblades, but will offer this as a suggestion. Start with 30* - 35* and astraight bevel. As you become more and more familiar with the tools,experimenta little to see what you like best. I keep my irons sharpened with a straightbevel (well, slightly hollow ground, actually) at approx. 36*. As for grooves in the planes, some like 'em, some don't. I have onegroovedplane and 3 ungrooved planes. I use the grooved plane to knock off about90% ofthe cane. I then remove the final few thousandths with a flat soled plane. One person's opionions. Hope it helps, Harry --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from Lazybee45@aol.com Wed Mar 14 19:00:26 2001 f2F10Qe27495 Subject: Re: One Piece Rod In a message dated 3/14/01 4:09:03 PM Central Standard Time,horsesho@ptd.net writes: Would the gentleman who provided me with the T&T one piece 6' taper beso kind as to send it to me again as I got a little happy with thedelete button this morning. Thanks Bill Ah GOD, me too please! I am a sucker for rod tapers!!mark "The learned are not wise, and the wise are not learned" Lao Tzu from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 14 19:20:51 2001 f2F1Koe28056 Subject: Re: new Subject I must use mine even more than you Harry. I've worn out 4 in that time. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 02:55 PM 3/14/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote:Hi Bill,Like Onis, I use a Dremel tool. But I use one of the larger, heavy dutycut-off disks. I find that they last several times as long as the smallerdisks. The cut is clean as a whistle. In fact, the little Dremel tool I ownis 23 years old, and one of the handiest gadgets in my shop. I reach for itall the time. Harry Bill Fink wrote: To the ListWhat are your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure niceclean,crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 14 19:23:34 2001 f2F1NXe28235 Subject: Re: new Subject I abdicate! I thought I was King of wearing out Dremmels. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 03:17 PM 3/14/01 -0600, nobler wrote:Don't lose that old Dremel Harry ! The crud they make now won't last a fullyear, if you use it much. Stall the weak motor 3 or 4 times, and thevariable speed unit burns out, as it only has a 1 Amp capacity ! Those old 2 ball bearing Dremel units weren't too bad, as I used them in themachine shop, and got by with only 3 a year. GMA from jojo@ipa.net Wed Mar 14 19:48:53 2001 f2F1mre28878 Subject: Re: Spline Placement I look at the butt end of the culm section, note that there is consistentdepth of fibers, and try to take all six strips from that section. Whensplit I number them 1-6, then stagger them Chevy 6. Now they're all screwedup. I think the important part was to have that consistency of depth. M-D Since the debate on tempering didn't get quite hot enough (yes, that was abad joke), I thought I'd ask another question sure to get some folks firedup. How many of you actually go through the Garrison gymnastics involvedinspline placement? In other words, do you actually care whether thesplinesare placed in the finished rod in the same relative position as they weresplit from the culm? Whether you do or you don't, do you think itactuallymatters? from le_moucheux@hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 19:51:12 2001 f2F1pBe29031 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:51:09 -0800 Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:51:09 GMT Subject: Re: new Subject FILETIME=[68136AE0:01C0ACF2] I use a band saw with a very fine blade. I roll the blank slightly while cutting and it does a great clean cut. From: fiveside@net-gate.com (Bill Fink) Subject: new Subject To the ListJust to talk about something other than tempering for a while, let me askabout a subject that has sometimes been troublesome when I'm careless.Whatare your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure nice clean, crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill _________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. from jojo@ipa.net Wed Mar 14 19:54:15 2001 f2F1sEe29240 Subject: Re: Medved Beveler- big trouble This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_092F_01C0ACBF.561631C0 Jeff, I'm thinking you are taking too big a bite per pass. Another suggestion: =Use a carbide router bit. It will outlast a HSS maybe 20-1.I still am not climb cutting my strips. Yes, if I take too big a bite =the strip will try to splinter. Since I have roller bearings for the =hold-downs, the splinter is stopped at that point and I can continue =without problems. M-D I am in the process of building a Medved Beveler. Trouble is, I ran a =few test pieces of cane through it, and the end result was flying =splinters. I thought that my router bit was sharp (it was almost new), =but am somewhat dismayed by the results I am getting. While there are =some obvious things I need to do, like strengthen the hold downs and =sharpen up the bit, has anyone had any experience tuning up a Beveler? I =am open to suggestions, other than "get out your plane and rough form". =I would like to make this work. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_092F_01C0ACBF.561631C0 Jeff, are = big a bite per pass. Another suggestion: Use a carbide router bit. It = outlast a HSS maybe 20-1.I still am not climb = strips. Yes, if I take too big a bite the strip will try to splinter. = have roller bearings for the hold-downs, the splinter is stopped at that = and I can continue without problems. M-D setissma I am in the process of building a = Trouble is, I ran a few test pieces of cane through it, and the end = flying splinters. I thought that my router bit was sharp (it was = but am somewhat dismayed by the results I am getting. While there are = obvious things I need to do, like strengthen the hold downs and = suggestions, other than "get out your plane and rough form". I would = make this work. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_092F_01C0ACBF.561631C0-- from jojo@ipa.net Wed Mar 14 20:00:06 2001 f2F205e29455 Subject: Re: Lathe Parts This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0943_01C0ACC0.26B0E780 Rich, You might consult with Bob Nunley, AKA Mr. Sluggo, about how not to =assault yourself whilst attempting the bearing change. He has experience =in these matters. ;o) M-D OK, I got a wood lathe. The school's wood shop wad one they weren't =using. You don't want to know the price. :-)))) If fact I doubled the = It is an old Atlas.The front of the tailstock is broke. The bearings =are shot but it came with new bearings that I need to install. It needs =a chuck. The business manager thinks he can fix the tailstock by using a pipe =cap on it. Does anyone know what I am getting into replacing the bearings? Also, =any suggestions on where to get a 3 jay chuck. Maybe a tailstock if the =fix doesn't work. Thanks Rich Jezioro*________________________________)/ @/||/____/||_________________________________________ ))):> > = ------=_NextPart_000_0943_01C0ACC0.26B0E780 Rich, You might consult with= AKA Mr. Sluggo, about how not to assault yourself whilst attempting the = change. He has experience in these matters. ;o) M-D Jezioro OK, I got a wood lathe. The school's wood shop wad one they = using. You don't want to know the price. :-)))) If fact I doubled the = price. It is an old Atlas.The front of the tailstock is broke. = bearings are shot but it came with new bearings that I need to = needs a chuck.The business manager thinks he can fix the = using a pipe cap on it.Does anyone know what I am getting into = replacing the bearings? Also, any suggestions on where to get a 3 jay = Maybe a tailstock if the fix doesn't = = = ------=_NextPart_000_0943_01C0ACC0.26B0E780-- from setissma@email.msn.com Wed Mar 14 21:15:16 2001 f2F3FFe00951 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:15:13 -0800 Subject: Medved Beveler solutions FILETIME=[26920BB0:01C0ACFE] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0ACD5.6C0EE1A0 Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I strengthened the =hold-downs, tapered the strips, and tried taking less material. =Tonight's test strips went through in fine style, with no flying =splinters. It tapered the square test strips with a smooth edge and no =chattering. I will definitely practice squaring and "creating the =triangle" before I try and make a rod with it, but things are looking =up. In gratitude, I will bring ice cold beer to the Grayling, MI gathering =this summer. Thanks again, Jeff Schaeffer ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0ACD5.6C0EE1A0 Thank you all for your thoughtful = strengthened the hold-downs, tapered the strips, and tried taking less = Tonight's test strips went through in fine style, with no flying = tapered the square test strips with a smooth edge and no chattering. I = definitely practice squaring and "creating the triangle" before I try = rod with it, but things are looking up. This a great group, and I am glad I = In gratitude, I will bring ice cold = Thanks again, Jeff =Schaeffer ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0ACD5.6C0EE1A0-- from dutcher@email.msn.com Wed Mar 14 22:29:24 2001 f2F4TNe02067 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:29:21 -0800 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:28:57 -0800 Subject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne FILETIME=[81884930:01C0AD08] Thank you, Brian. I have sent my two cents worth to Cortland. Regards, Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Creek Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 4:55 PMSubject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne Try info@cortlandline.com I got this from their cordage division web page. Brian from dutcher@email.msn.com Wed Mar 14 22:38:15 2001 f2F4cFe02335 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:38:12 -0800 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:37:38 -0800 Subject: Re: Lathe Parts FILETIME=[BE41AD20:01C0AD09] Mr. Sluggo? Jeez Louise, M-D. Is there no respect for the lame andafflicted? Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 5:51 PMSubject: Re: Lathe Parts Rich, You might consult with Bob Nunley, AKA Mr. Sluggo, about how not toassault yourself whilst attempting the bearing change. He has experience inthese matters. ;o) M-DFrom: Rich Jezioro OK, I got a wood lathe. The school's wood shop wad one they weren'tusing. You don't want to know the price. :-)))) If fact I doubled the askingprice. It is an old Atlas.The front of the tailstock is broke. The bearings areshot but it came with new bearings that I need to install. It needs a chuck. The business manager thinks he can fix the tailstock by using a pipe capon it. Does anyone know what I am getting into replacing the bearings? Also,any suggestions on where to get a 3 jay chuck. Maybe a tailstock if the fixdoesn't work. Thanks Rich Jezioro*________________________________)// Rich Jezioro@/||/____/||_________________________________________||/\))):> > >))):> from caneman@clnk.com Wed Mar 14 23:04:54 2001 f2F54se02947 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:05:07 -0600 Subject: Fw: Lathe Parts Well then I'm just not going to tell you guys about running into the beam atthe Nature Center with the same broken orbit... you'll just have to hear it from someone else! Sluggo -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Lathe Parts Mr. Sluggo? Jeez Louise, M-D. Is there no respect for the lame andafflicted? from ajthramer@hotmail.com Thu Mar 15 01:02:02 2001 f2F721e04959 Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:01:55 -0800 Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:01:55 GMT rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: new Subject FILETIME=[D1F4EBC0:01C0AD1D] I've got to second the Zona saw, sharp, cheap and they outlast X-Acto by a long ways. They do wear out though. I don't know how it is possible to build a rod without the assistance of a good hobby shop.A.J.Thramer From: "nobler" Subject: Re: new SubjectDate: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:12:20 -0600 I use a tool from the model airplane business called a Zona Saw. It's verysharp, and thin, and cuts very cleanly. Far better than a Xacto, etc..GMA _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from petermckean@netspace.net.au Thu Mar 15 05:04:18 2001 f2FB4Ge07249 f2FB4B000723; Subject: Re: Spline Placement Bob With all the arguments that I have heard about strip selection, the mostconvincing to a one-at-a-time rodmaker like me is the one you have raised.If you use strips that are from the same region of the culm, it makes itjust so much easier to arrange the nodes in the blank, no matter, really,what system of staggering one uses. I have now built three rods with"left-overs", and while they are fine, they were not easy rods in which toarrange the nodes - and to me at least, the random mixture limits one to theuse of the loose Payne stagger.Nothing wrong with that, but I prefer the 2X2 arrangement, given my'druthers.Peter- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Fw: Spline Placement My opinion. Strip arrangment is important to me, ONLY because the nodesdon't run a perfect circle around a culm. I don't particularly line upsixstrips that were side by side on the culm, rather, i go through thesplits,pick out my best strips, match them to each other for node alignment.Problem with just picking an six for a section and going with it is thatifa node ring runs out a half an inch round the culm (I've seen them thatbadand worse) then there's no way you can get a get all your nodes aligned,especially if usuing a 3x3 method where you can see the aligmenment moreeasily. Make sense?Most likely, the strips that are side by side give you the bestalignment, but then again, some are not usable, due to worm holes,blemishes, node defects, etc., so many times it is impossible to get 6side proper... Of course if you spiral or random stagger, makes ondifference... Just my opinion, Bob -----Original Message-----From: jmpio@nhbm.com Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 9:38 AMSubject: Spline Placement Since the debate on tempering didn't get quite hot enough (yes, that wasabad joke), I thought I'd ask another question sure to get some folksfiredup. How many of you actually go through the Garrison gymnasticsinvolvedinspline placement? In other words, do you actually care whether thesplinesare placed in the finished rod in the same relative position as they weresplit from the culm? Whether you do or you don't, do you think itactuallymatters? from dr.matro@airmail.net Thu Mar 15 08:23:22 2001 f2FENMe10035 sender: Organization: KC Graphics Subject: Re: Fw: Lathe Parts Yo, Sluggo Rumor has it Rev. Boyd'll be flogging the LMF for the next few days. You going down? Ken Cole ps...how's the head? KC from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu Mar 15 09:53:02 2001 f2FFr1e13329 , , Subject: Re: new Subject Us old modelers learned the hard way Al !GMA from dutcher@email.msn.com Thu Mar 15 10:29:54 2001 f2FGTme14896 Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:29:46 -0800 Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:29:45 -0800 Subject: Cortland Silk Line Campagne FILETIME=[260869E0:01C0AD6D] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C0AD2A.37593A00 Hello All, Yesterday I sent an e-mail to Cortland. Below is a copy of my messageand their rapid response. I have heard a rumor that Cortland is entertaining the possibility ofmanufacturing silk fly lines. I, for one, would be most supportive of thisventure. There are some wonderful synthetic lines on the market today but,nothing has ever compared to silk lines. Please, bring them back. Regards,Dick Dear Mr. Dutcher, Thank you for your e-mail requesting information. We appreciate you takingthe time to write to us regarding silk fly lines. Unfortunately, theCortland Line Company is not making a silk fly line at this time. Again, thank you for contacting the Cortland Line Company, Inc. Sincerely,Nancy L. StoutSales/Marketing DepartmentCortland Line Company, Inc.3736 Kellogg Road, PO Box 5588Cortland, NY 13045Phone: (607) 756- 2851Fax: (607) 753-8835 Cortland Line Company, Inc.http://www.cortlandline.com I think we need to keep knocking at their door. Please, send a briefmessage to let them know what we want. Thank you everyone. Best regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C0AD2A.37593A00 name="Richard R. Dutcher.vcf" filename="Richard R. Dutcher.vcf" BEGIN:VCARDVERSION:2.1N:Dutcher;Richard;R.FN:Richard R. DutcherNICKNAME:DickORG:Trumpet Methodology, Inc.TEL;WORK;VOICE:206- 660-1705ADR;WORK:;;P. O. Box 349;Brinnon;Washington;98320- 0349;USALABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P. O. Box349=3D0D=3D0ABrinnon, =Washington 98320- 0349=3D0D=3D0AUSAURL:URL:http://www.geckotech.com/dutcherEMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:dutcher@msn.comREV:20010315T163039ZEND:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C0AD2A.37593A00-- from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu Mar 15 11:02:58 2001 f2FH2qe16501 f2FH2slS010911;Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:02:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne Any company worth its salt will do allot of marketing research before theymake such a move back to silk lines. Cortland has survived to long to justjump off into a risky venture, where volume must count, or price prevails ! GMA from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Mar 15 11:12:45 2001 f2FHCie17061 2001 09:12:47 PST Subject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne gma, if they did do the research they wouldn'tnecessarily let us know about it. market research nowdays is done in a back room by eggheads that havelittle or know experience with the product. we canalways hope tho'. timothy --- nobler wrote:Any company worth its salt will do allot ofmarketing research before theymake such a move back to silk lines. Cortland hassurvived to long to justjump off into a risky venture, where volume mustcount, or price prevails ! GMA ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from jcole10@juno.com Thu Mar 15 11:28:49 2001 f2FHSme17796 12:28:36 EST UNSCRIBE RODMAKERS from dati@selway.umt.edu Thu Mar 15 11:40:25 2001 f2FHeOe18440 Subject: Everett Garrison Can anyone on the list point me to a copy of Everett Garrison's "A MastersGuide to Building a Bamboo Flyrod". Thanks,Darin Law ******************************* Darin J. Law **** School of Forestry **** University of Montana **** Missoula, MT 59812 **** **** (406) 243-2472 ******************************* from CALucker@aol.com Thu Mar 15 12:19:21 2001 f2FIJKe20310 Subject: Re: Everett Garrison My Brother has one -- a first edition I had Hoagy sign when we were consumating a rod deal twenty years ago. There is no insription, just Hoagy's autograph. My brother's name is Craig Lucker. He is in Edmonds (just north of Seattle).Craig's phone number is (425) 771-6153. He is not a rod builder -- he never got the bug. He is looking for $100.Chris Lucker from dutcher@email.msn.com Thu Mar 15 13:16:08 2001 f2FJG7e22242 Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:16:05 -0800 Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:16:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne FILETIME=[621697B0:01C0AD84] GMA, I am not in disagreement with what you say but, I am not sure what yourpoint is. Why not voice a desire to a manufacture? After all we are theconsumers.Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message -----From: nobler Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 9:11 AMSubject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne Any company worth its salt will do allot of marketing research before theymake such a move back to silk lines. Cortland has survived to long to justjump off into a risky venture, where volume must count, or price prevails! GMA from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Mar 15 14:05:18 2001 f2FK5He24223 2001 12:05:20 PST Subject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne richard, i did email cortland! and i did talk to acouple of people by telephone and they were strangelyevasive so maybe the rumor has some validity. theywill not comment on something like market research fora new product. if they say they have no plans atpresent we should not be dishearted or interpret thatas a negative comment. i also talked to s/a and i hadalready talked to cortland last fall. i was notraining onions on anyones parade. sorry! timothy --- "Richard R. Dutcher" wrote:GMA, I am not in disagreement with what you say but,I am not sure what yourpoint is. Why not voice a desire to a manufacture?After all we are theconsumers.Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message -----From: nobler Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 9:11 AMSubject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne Any company worth its salt will do allot ofmarketing research before theymake such a move back to silk lines. Cortland hassurvived to long to justjump off into a risky venture, where volume mustcount, or price prevails! GMA ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu Mar 15 14:31:53 2001 f2FKVqe25495 f2FKVsUd004516;Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:31:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Everett Garrison I got mine from a mail order book supplier @$75. last year. Try most any ofthe web sites for books.GMA from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu Mar 15 14:34:40 2001 f2FKYde25706 f2FKYeUd005038;Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:34:40 -0600 Subject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne Oh, I meant no criticism at all, only to be patient with expectations. Whoknows what could happen if enough respond ?GMA from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Mar 15 15:56:02 2001 f2FLtve29105 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: I'm off to the races! Well, it's that time of year again all! The annual Sportsman's show hereinNova Scotia and I'm off to "compete" in the fly casting tournament.Last year I showed up with my 7' 6" 4/5 wt Perfectionist and didremarkablywell against the 9' 6-7 wt locals. Quite a round of chuckles from the crowdwhen Ipulled it out of it's case, compared to the huge graphite Goliaths I wassurroundedby!This year I'll push my luck even farther with my tiny 6' 3" 2 wt 3pc SirD!!!Can't wait to hear the hush come over the crowd. I may not win (especiallywith mycasting talent.... or lack of??) but I WILL let them know that bamboo will not bekicked around!! Who's with me??? Oh yeah... I forgot you all are 1000's ofmilesaway. ;^)Oh well off I go to fight my battle against big graphite guns! If all elsefails I can use my rod as a rapier in a pinch if I get cornered by the bullies. Itake you all along with me, wish me luck,talk later when I get home,Shawn from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Mar 15 16:04:35 2001 f2FM4Ye29503 Subject: Re: new Subject Hi all,I cut off the blanks using a hack saw equipped with a fine tooth blade. Thesecret is to cut only half way thru and then turn the piece 180 degrees andcut off the rest. Polish the ends up with a grinding wheel.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: new Subject To the ListJust to talk about something other than tempering for a while, let measkabout a subject that has sometimes been troublesome when I'm careless.Whatare your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure nice clean,crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill from cathcreek@hotmail.com Thu Mar 15 16:21:43 2001 f2FMLge00588 Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:21:40 -0800 Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:21:39 GMT Subject: harbor freight mini lathe FILETIME=[4EA2BD20:01C0AD9E] Getting ready to order the 7 X 10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. Anyone have any comments on this if they have any experiences with it. I looked at the archives and saw that Terry liked it after he tightened it up. I appreciate any comments. Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from goodaple@tcac.net Thu Mar 15 16:38:22 2001 f2FMcLe01445 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 licensed1ebd4f8b91132ed01cf0e3e933da025) 0600 Subject: Re: I'm off to the races! Organization: Show'em how it's done Shawn. Good luck. Let us know how it goes. Randall G.NW AR. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: I'm off to the races! Well, it's that time of year again all! The annual Sportsman's showhere inNova Scotia and I'm off to "compete" in the fly casting tournament.Last year I showed up with my 7' 6" 4/5 wt Perfectionist and didremarkablywell against the 9' 6-7 wt locals. Quite a round of chuckles from thecrowd when Ipulled it out of it's case, compared to the huge graphite Goliaths I wassurroundedby!This year I'll push my luck even farther with my tiny 6' 3" 2 wt3pc Sir D!!!Can't wait to hear the hush come over the crowd. I may not win (especiallywith mycasting talent.... or lack of??) but I WILL let them know that bamboo willnot bekicked around!! Who's with me??? Oh yeah... I forgot you all are 1000's ofmilesaway. ;^)Oh well off I go to fight my battle against big graphite guns! Ifall elsefails I can use my rod as a rapier in a pinch if I get cornered by thebullies. Itake you all along with me, wish me luck,talk later when I get home, Shawn from bmaulucci@adelphia.net Thu Mar 15 17:36:52 2001 f2FNape03355 ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:36:19 -0500 Subject: test sorry, please deleteBob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbmaulucci@adelphia.netbob@downandacross.com from brigade@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 15 17:38:14 2001 f2FNcDe03478 Subject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne You will notice the words, "at this time," in the response received fromCortland. I believe that they are doing market research, and that's exactlywhy they have been talking to major bamboo fly rod makers. The individual Ireceived the original information from already carries two brands of silk linesin his shop so he would be someone with direct knowledge of the market, atleast in this area of Colorado. As an aside, he told me an anecdote concerning a very well known bamboo flyfisher and an experience he had with silk fly lines. This individual had beenfishing a silk line and took a break to air the line and grab a bite of lunch.The line was unspooled and layed across some tall grass. After lunch, theindividual decided on taking a short nap. He awoke sometime later todiscoverthat silk fly lines are on a grasshoppers "desirable snack list." Regards,Outrider "Richard R. Dutcher" wrote: Hello All, Yesterday I sent an e-mail to Cortland. Below is a copy of my messageand their rapid response. I have heard a rumor that Cortland is entertaining the possibility ofmanufacturing silk fly lines. I, for one, would be most supportive of thisventure. There are some wonderful synthetic lines on the market todaybut,nothing has ever compared to silk lines. Please, bring them back. Regards,Dick Dear Mr. Dutcher, Thank you for your e-mail requesting information. We appreciate youtakingthe time to write to us regarding silk fly lines. Unfortunately, theCortland Line Company is not making a silk fly line at this time. Again, thank you for contacting the Cortland Line Company, Inc. Sincerely,Nancy L. StoutSales/Marketing DepartmentCortland Line Company, Inc.3736 Kellogg Road, PO Box 5588Cortland, NY 13045Phone: (607) 756- 2851Fax: (607) 753-8835 Cortland Line Company, Inc.http://www.cortlandline.com I think we need to keep knocking at their door. Please, send a briefmessage to let them know what we want. Thank you everyone. Best regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Mar 15 17:50:27 2001 f2FNoQe03912 Subject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne It is a true story. The well known flyfisher told me about it a while back.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Daniel Sedergren wrote: You will notice the words, "at this time," in the response received fromCortland. I believe that they are doing market research, and that's exactlywhy they have been talking to major bamboo fly rod makers. The individualIreceived the original information from already carries two brands of silklinesin his shop so he would be someone with direct knowledge of the market, atleast in this area of Colorado. As an aside, he told me an anecdote concerning a very well known bambooflyfisher and an experience he had with silk fly lines. This individual had beenfishing a silk line and took a break to air the line and grab a bite of lunch.The line was unspooled and layed across some tall grass. After lunch, theindividual decided on taking a short nap. He awoke sometime later todiscoverthat silk fly lines are on a grasshoppers "desirable snack list." Regards,Outrider "Richard R. Dutcher" wrote: Hello All, Yesterday I sent an e-mail to Cortland. Below is a copy of my messageand their rapid response. I have heard a rumor that Cortland is entertaining the possibility ofmanufacturing silk fly lines. I, for one, would be most supportive of thisventure. There are some wonderful synthetic lines on the market todaybut,nothing has ever compared to silk lines. Please, bring them back. Regards,Dick Dear Mr. Dutcher, Thank you for your e-mail requesting information. We appreciate youtakingthe time to write to us regarding silk fly lines. Unfortunately, theCortland Line Company is not making a silk fly line at this time. Again, thank you for contacting the Cortland Line Company, Inc. Sincerely,Nancy L. StoutSales/Marketing DepartmentCortland Line Company, Inc.3736 Kellogg Road, PO Box 5588Cortland, NY 13045Phone: (607) 756- 2851Fax: (607) 753-8835 Cortland Line Company, Inc.http://www.cortlandline.com I think we need to keep knocking at their door. Please, send a briefmessage to let them know what we want. Thank you everyone. Best regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com from channer@frontier.net Thu Mar 15 17:52:42 2001 f2FNqfe04067 Subject: Re: harbor freight mini lathe Robert;You might want to re-think that, 10" between centers is before you add anylivecenter or drill chuck. I got the 7x12 from Grizzly and it will just do a 6"grip with 3 1/2" out for the reel seat, that's all I need, but I think 10" mightnot be enough.John Robert Clarke wrote: Getting ready to order the 7 X 10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. Anyonehave any comments on this if they have any experiences with it. I lookedatthe archives and saw that Terry liked it after he tightened it up. Iappreciate any comments. Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from fiveside@net-gate.com Thu Mar 15 18:04:47 2001 f2G04ke04617 Subject: Point of Interest To the List,This may be a point of interest. Hope it doesn't take too much bandwidthto explain:Dan Neuschafer and I, after our great 2-strip nodeless screwup, decided todo it right this time, with nodes, that is. But Dan and I are nodelessfreaks without a long oven so we prevailed on Tom Smithwick to use his. Weeach split out the necessary strips with a spare for each section, direct from the culm to the oven. All went well. It's a nice reliable oven and tempcycle. We got the whiff of fumes and just a bit of color change, as always.Then we went home to heat straighten and hell broke loose again (pardon meDr. Boyd). I had node breakage on 3 of the 6 strips, and Dan independentlyhad about the same. We never saw this before. But of course we never heattreated before straightening before. Anybody else have any experiencesalongthese lines? Bill from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 15 18:07:04 2001 f2G073e04803 Subject: Re: Lathe Parts I see you still have this penchant for abusing yourself. You haven't soughtthat professional help yet, have you?How was the fishing at Mtn. Fork today? M-D Well then I'm just not going to tell you guys about running into the beamatthe Nature Center with the same broken orbit... you'll just have to hearit from someone else! Sluggo From: Richard R. Dutcher Mr. Sluggo? Jeez Louise, M-D. Is there no respect for the lame andafflicted? from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 15 18:10:50 2001 f2G0Aoe05059 Subject: Re: Cortland Silk Line Campagne Dick, That was a non-response. Hell, we all know they are not *making* silk linesat this time. They are definitely hiding the fact that they intend to do soin the future, or at least are considering it. M-D Hello All, Yesterday I sent an e-mail to Cortland. Below is a copy of my messageand their rapid response. I have heard a rumor that Cortland is entertaining the possibility ofmanufacturing silk fly lines. I, for one, would be most supportive of thisventure. There are some wonderful synthetic lines on the market todaybut,nothing has ever compared to silk lines. Please, bring them back. Regards,Dick Dear Mr. Dutcher, Thank you for your e-mail requesting information. We appreciate youtakingthe time to write to us regarding silk fly lines. Unfortunately, theCortland Line Company is not making a silk fly line at this time. Again, thank you for contacting the Cortland Line Company, Inc. Sincerely,Nancy L. StoutSales/Marketing DepartmentCortland Line Company, Inc.3736 Kellogg Road, PO Box 5588Cortland, NY 13045Phone: (607) 756- 2851Fax: (607) 753-8835 Cortland Line Company, Inc.http://www.cortlandline.com I think we need to keep knocking at their door. Please, send a briefmessage to let them know what we want. Thank you everyone. Best regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 15 18:19:58 2001 f2G0Jse05428 Subject: Re: Everett Garrison Try www.alldirect.com They've usually got good prices. ( Yes, of course Iown the company. ;^ ) M-D I got mine from a mail order book supplier @$75. last year. Try most anyofthe web sites for books.GMA from MasjC1@aol.com Thu Mar 15 19:06:09 2001 f2G169e06767 Subject: Re: Point of Interest --part1_ce.120222c6.27e2c0da_boundary I had this problem several years ago, strips breaking at the nodes. They broke clean without any of the long power fiber splinters. After consulting the list I concluded that I was using excessive heat in straightening. After I backed off on the heat I had no more problems.....at least not that problem. Mark Cole --part1_ce.120222c6.27e2c0da_boundary I had this problem several years ago, stripsbreaking at the nodes. They broke clean without any of the long power fiber splinters. Afterconsulting the list I concluded that I was using excessive heat in straightening.After I backed off on the heat I had no more problems.....at least not thatproblem. Mark Cole --part1_ce.120222c6.27e2c0da_boundary-- from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu Mar 15 19:15:10 2001 f2G1FAe07117 f2G1F9Ud020784;Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:15:09 -0600 Subject: Re: harbor freight mini lathe In the long run, a 9" metal lathe is about minimum. As soon as you learnjust a little, you will surely find the need for more lathe ! Been there, and done that !GMA from nobler@satx.rr.com Thu Mar 15 19:17:07 2001 f2G1H6e07250 f2G1H8lS030155;Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:17:08 -0600 Subject: Re: Everett Garrison Also www.Amazon.com !GMA from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 15 20:08:12 2001 f2G28Ae08519 Subject: For the Newbies, Wannabies, and Anyone Else (Long, but what else isnew?) Folks, In talking with Tony Spezio off List, he made a point that I think ispertinent. Some of us on this List, certainly me, enjoy the hows and whys,we revel in the details, and enjoy making complicated pieces of equipment.That is well and good, but I can see where all of this could lead someonenew to the List, or to rodmaking, to believe that this was all necessary tomaking a bamboo fly rod; that one must understand chemical changesundergone by bamboo, know all there is to know about finishes, have aninnate understanding of taper mechanics, be able to assess a rod'scharacteristics by a mere glance at a stress graph, and have $ 5,000 worthof tools, all this before ever contemplating the crafting of a rod. The meretask of making a rod seems daunting enough without all the otherobfuscations. It is enough to make one think twice. Well, forget about itall -- for now.Making a bamboo rod is not an especially difficult thing. To be sure thereare a number of steps involved, and with so many steps a great number ofopportunities to mess something up exists. That is just part of it. Thebiggest hurdle is just going ahead and doing it -- one step at a time. Thereis more than enough help available, both on and off List, to make it allquite simple and straightforward, without the need for $ 10,000 dollar ovens(mine, if I counted my time). There are a lot of talented, knowledgeable,and sharing people who inhabit this List, and most do not mind answeringquestions, but you have to ask them first. Don't be surprised that you askthree people and get three different answers. Look for the commonality inthe answers, decide for yourself which to follow, or do it your own way. Inthe beginning, you will do things as you are told by others, assuming theyknow what they are talking about. That's fine. This is how you learn. Youmay/will find that what they said doesn't work for you. Find another way, ormake up your own. There are some excellent books on the subject that, moreor less, guide you through every step. Ray Gould and Wayne Cattanach onthisList have both authored books. (If I've left anyone out, please forgive me.)Having a rod that you made is the end result, but you should enjoy thegetting there. Rodmaking is not about instant gratification, that is unlessyou enjoy each step.Those of us who dwell on the minutiae should perhaps remember that noteveryone else shares our enthusiasm, and might never come to the world offishing bamboo because of it. This is not to say that we should not discusssuch things, but only to be mindful of those who may not have theappreciation, or are overwhelmed as it is, and endeavor to help them intheir beginnings. If not for the help and patience of others I could neverhave made the first rod. (Thanks Rick, Harry, and Bob.) M-D from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 15 20:11:11 2001 f2G2BAe08688 Subject: Re: light tapers HEEEHEEEE. I have the Payne 96 taper. Ninny nanny boo boo. If you asknicely, and repeatedly, I may deign to post it. };^)> M-D I don't have the 96 but would love to have it. Best, Dennis from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Mar 15 20:44:27 2001 f2G2iPe09450 Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:43:42 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: new Subject Bill,you won't believe this, but when I first started out I was using one ofthosefine lazer cut kitchen steak knives to cut my ends in the lathe. sounds funnybut itsure cut clean... like a steak!Now an exacto or razor saw.Shawn Bill Fink wrote: To the ListJust to talk about something other than tempering for a while, let me askabout a subject that has sometimes been troublesome when I'm careless.Whatare your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure nice clean, crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill from robert.kope@prodigy.net Thu Mar 15 20:51:59 2001 f2G2pwe09697 f2G2pwJ40750;Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:51:58 -0500 Subject: Re: harbor freight mini lathe Robert, I have one and it's perfectly adequate for ferrule stations and grips, aslong as you don't want to do rods with fighting butts. You can accomodategrips up to about 7 inches turned on the blank by simply wrapping the buttend of the blank with masking tape to build up the diameter and then runningthe Morse taper of the tailstock up over the taped end of the butt. I think you could readily make reel seats with it, though I'm not sure minehas the accuracy to turn ferrules, and I haven't attempted either yet. I'mno machinist, but I can tell that mine would definitely require some tuningto turn ferrules. My father is a machinist and he thinks that Chinesemachine tools are a great value, but they must be disassembled andreassembled carefully in order to get acceptable accuracy. I'm perfectly happy with mine, and really get a kick out of how it looksjust like a "real lathe". However, if you have aspirations for makingferrules, reels, or anything else ambitious, you should get a larger lathe. -- Robert Kope ----- Original Message ----- Subject: harbor freight mini lathe Getting ready to order the 7 X 10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. Anyonehave any comments on this if they have any experiences with it. I lookedatthe archives and saw that Terry liked it after he tightened it up. Iappreciate any comments. Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Mar 15 20:57:38 2001 f2G2vbe09923 Subject: Re: For the Newbies, Wannabies, and Anyone Else (Long, but whatelse is new?) Ya Ya Ya - I know this is reflective of the ol' fart that I am - but atone point in time bamboo rodmaking was sort of a lonely place - there wasn'tan internet or gatherings and all the other support mechism that has grownover the years. The basement cave was more of a alone place - and answerswere scarce at time. Which is why you can hear the several answers for thesame question - we each worked out differing solutions to the same end. Andit wasn't a matter of money either - there just weren't. I know that as eachof us have come to this there is the anxiousness of finishing that firstrod - but several of us can vividly remember leaving the basement shop -shutting the light off on some unresolved issue and NOT being able to run tothe computer for that assuring reinforcement that awaits here. Out of it allthere is one thing that is abiding - when you watch the swirl of water asyou release that first fish on a rod that you have made yourself - I hopethat dimension of this never diminishes . . .Enjoy the adventure ! from bmaulucci@adelphia.net Thu Mar 15 21:04:59 2001 f2G34ve10200 Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:03:42 -0500 "and Collecting" Subject: Re: For the Newbies, Wannabies, and Anyone Else (Long, butwhat else is new?) The real answers lie in the shop and in that swirl. Sometimes it is easy to forget that.Bob At 09:58 PM 3/15/2001 -0500, Wayne Cattanach wrote:Ya Ya Ya - I know this is reflective of the ol' fart that I am - but atone point in time bamboo rodmaking was sort of a lonely place - therewasn'tan internet or gatherings and all the other support mechism that has grownover the years. The basement cave was more of a alone place - andanswerswere scarce at time. Which is why you can hear the several answers for thesame question - we each worked out differing solutions to the same end. Andit wasn't a matter of money either - there just weren't. I know that as eachof us have come to this there is the anxiousness of finishing that firstrod - but several of us can vividly remember leaving the basement shop -shutting the light off on some unresolved issue and NOT being able to run tothe computer for that assuring reinforcement that awaits here. Out of itallthere is one thing that is abiding - when you watch the swirl of water asyou release that first fish on a rod that you have made yourself - I hopethat dimension of this never diminishes . . .Enjoy the adventure ! Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Mar 15 21:09:03 2001 f2G392e10430 Subject: Re: new Subject Two tools - a surgeons scalpel and a mini hack saw - the scalpel is used forjust the tips and is used with down pressure as the rod section is rolled - scoring or cutting its way to the center - the mini hack saw is about 6" inlength and found often in the plumbing supply places - the blade is 24 tpi - with it each flat is cut to center and then the section indexed for the nextcut to center - the reason you want the last cut of each to happen at thecenter instead of the edge is so that you don't get tearout on the edgepower fibers from martinj@aa.net Thu Mar 15 21:28:20 2001 f2G3SJe10976 Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:28:18 -0800 Subject: RE: new Subject.... Really, a new subject - varnish (P&L R10) Hey Ray,I just got a new gallon of Varmor R10 and dipped a rod in it. It seemsdifferent. I'm wondering if they may have changed the formula like I haveheard other varnish manufactures have done? Seems thinner. This waspurchased just a week ago or so. Any experience with a new can of varnish?My last can of it was purchased close to 2 years ago and just was startingto thicken a bit. I thinned it down for one last rod which turned out fine(in an expected fashion), and then dumped it in favor of this new gallon. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: new Subject Hi all,I cut off the blanks using a hack saw equipped with a fine tooth blade. Thesecret is to cut only half way thru and then turn the piece 180 degrees andcut off the rest. Polish the ends up with a grinding wheel.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: new Subject To the ListJust to talk about something other than tempering for a while, let measkabout a subject that has sometimes been troublesome when I'm careless.Whatare your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure nice clean,crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill from Troutgetter@aol.com Thu Mar 15 21:39:32 2001Received: from imo- f2G3dVe11331 Subject: Re: harbor freight mini lathe --part1_df.11c23a6d.27e2e4c2_boundary Robert,I've owned a H-F mini for years now and all the negative things written about it's size is true. That said, my experience with it is the same as Robert Kope's. It's a nice little lathe and with a little creativity I think will do most things you might like to get done including ferrules. There are a few other lathes in the price range that others swear by. I don't regret buying mine but I do wish it had a longer bed Have fun,Mike --part1_df.11c23a6d.27e2e4c2_boundary Robert,I've owned a H-F mini for years now and all the negative things writtenabout it's size is true. That said, my experience with it is the same as Robert Kope's. It's anice little lathe and with a little creativity I think will do most things you might like to get done including ferrules. There are a few other lathes in the price range that others swear by. Idon't regret buying mine but I do wish it had a longer bed Have fun,Mike --part1_df.11c23a6d.27e2e4c2_boundary-- from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 15 21:44:21 2001 f2G3iKe11593 Subject: Re: harbor freight mini lathe Hi Robert. I've had a 7x10 for going on 3 years. I make ferrules, real seats, real seat inserts, handles, and a bunch of other stuff. I wouldn't trade mine for anything; well, maybe one of Grizzley's 7x12's. The extra couple of inches would be nice but not necessary for flyrod building. It gets tight drilling real seat inserts but I use screw machine length bits to start and finish with regular length so I really don't know if I would fork over the extra $100+ for the extra two inches. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 10:21 PM 3/15/01 +0000, Robert Clarke wrote: Getting ready to order the 7 X 10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. Anyone have any comments on this if they have any experiences with it. I looked at the archives and saw that Terry liked it after he tightened it up. I appreciate any comments. Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Mar 15 21:56:56 2001 f2G3ute11910 Subject: Re: For the Newbies, Wannabies, and Anyone Else (Long, but whatelse is new?) After being intimidated for almost ten years I made my first rod in a week.I had my forms drilled and tapped for years and could not find anyone to millthe groove.One evening while talking to Wayne when he was in here in Arkansas he said"whydon't you do it yourself." That was the push I needed. Three evenings latermyforms were ready to use. If it had not been for Wayne that evening I wouldprobably would still be waiting for someone to be milling my forms. This iswhatwe need is encouragement.Thanks Wayne for the push you gave me. That is all I needed to get on theball.BTW I am an old fart too but I have you beat. Will be 71 next week.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Wayne Cattanach wrote: Ya Ya Ya - I know this is reflective of the ol' fart that I am - but atone point in time bamboo rodmaking was sort of a lonely place - therewasn'tan internet or gatherings and all the other support mechism that hasgrownover the years. The basement cave was more of a alone place - andanswerswere scarce at time. Which is why you can hear the several answers forthesame question - we each worked out differing solutions to the same end. Andit wasn't a matter of money either - there just weren't. I know that aseachof us have come to this there is the anxiousness of finishing that firstrod - but several of us can vividly remember leaving the basement shop -shutting the light off on some unresolved issue and NOT being able to runtothe computer for that assuring reinforcement that awaits here. Out of itallthere is one thing that is abiding - when you watch the swirl of water asyou release that first fish on a rod that you have made yourself - I hopethat dimension of this never diminishes . . .Enjoy the adventure ! from timklein@qwest.net Thu Mar 15 22:35:08 2001 f2G4Z7e13014 (63.225.127.211) Subject: Re: new Subject I use a tool from the model airplane business called a Zona Saw. It's verysharp, and thin, and cuts very cleanly. Far better than a Xacto, etc..GMA I've got kind of a funny story about a Zona saw. I use an exacto saw blade that I've had laying around forever. No matter howcareful I was with it though, I always seemed to get just a little bit oftearout. Someone suggested I try cutting blanks on the lathe at slow speed.It was a little scary at first, but it works great and that's how I've doneit ever since. When I finally decided the blade was too dull to use any longer, I ran downto the local hobby shop to pick up a new one. The didn't have the exactoblade but they gave me one of Zonas and told me it would fit my handle justfine. I took it home and sure enough it fit perfectly. The next time I needed to trim up a section I chucked it up like normal,turned down the speed, and placed the blade to the blank. It hummed andsputtered but didn't do much cutting. The thing looked and felt razor sharp,but it just didn't want to cut. I turned up the speed and finally managed apretty ragged, semi-charred cut, but I was extremely disappointed with thispiece of crap! I threw the thing in my junk drawer, bought a new exactoblade and things have been fine ever since. About a month ago, I needed to cut a small piece of wood to use on my kid'sscience fair display. Neatness wasn't an issue and I didn't want to mess upmy good exacto blade, so I dug the Zona blade out of the junk drawer andmounted it to my handle. Imagine my surprise to find out that the Zonablades are "pull" saws rather than "push" saws like the exacto! Sometimes my stupidity just amazes me. ---Tim from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 15 23:00:33 2001 f2G50We13728 Subject: Payne 96 Due to an overwhelming number of whinings and other assorted pitifulpleas, and since I'm not mean and heartless like the thousands of denizensof this List who have the Para 16 taper and won't share it, here you havethe Payne 96. This taper was provided me months ago by Rich Colo, takenfroma rod he owned. The provided guide spacing didn't seem to add up for me, butI tried to figure it out as best I could. I assume the numbers are overvarnish, but don't know. Rich? I had to extrapolate certain numbers fromsome measurements not being at 5" intervals due to the guides. Jim Payne 961950's6'6" 2 pc. 4 wt.10/64 Ferrule (I'd use an 11/64th. Did these things have step ferrules?)Grip: 5" CigarReel seat: 4", All corkOriginal GuideSpacing0" 0.057 3 7/8"5" 0.074 7 1/2"10" 0.091 11 1/2"15" 0.106 18 1/2"20" 0.119 25 3/4"25" 0.135 33 1/4"30" 0.148 45"35" 0.16040" 0.16845" 0.17850" 0.19655" 0.21460" 0.23265" 0.25270" 0.29475" 0.29478" 0.294 I'd use 0.312 for the last 3" of the butt, but hey, that's me. M-D from ctn45555@centurytel.net Thu Mar 15 23:05:24 2001 f2G55Ne13936 f2G557S25698 Organization: Smith & Boyd Subject: Ferrules revisited First of all thanks to all who replied to my query on how to straightenferrule stations. Ferrule station is now straight. I've now a question about section length. Currently wrapping my firstrod (PY midge taper). Just discovered a problem. When I cut my sectionsto length, I did not account for the length of the female ferrule (i.e.both sections were cut to the same length, minus tiptop, moisture plug,and reel seat cap adjustments). I misread my mannual and thought thatwas the right way to do it. I did use truncated ferrules so thedifference in length between but and tip sections is just under one halfof an inch. Will this cause problems (other than minor adjustments whenmaking the rod bag)? Seems to me that the only difference will be thatwith my cuts, the mated ferrules will be about one half inch closer tothe tip section than normal, and that this, if anything, would slightlyincrease speed of the rod. What would be the argument for measuring rodsection lenght to the end of the female ferrule instead of where thebutt section "stops" within the ferrule? BTW, the rod has a verypleasing medium/med-fast action. Seems to have turned out great. Cantwait to cast/fish it. from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Mar 15 23:11:17 2001 f2G5BFe14234 2001 21:01:41 PST Subject: Re: light tapers pretty pretty please! --- Jojo DeLancier wrote:HEEEHEEEE. I have the Payne 96 taper. Ninny nannyboo boo. If you asknicely, and repeatedly, I may deign to post it. };^)> M-D From: I don't have the 96 but would love to have it. Best, Dennis ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from robert.kope@prodigy.net Thu Mar 15 23:28:34 2001 f2G5SXe14737 f2G5SY197836 Subject: Re: Spline Placement Peter, You must make quads ;^). I also prefer 2x2x2 node staggering and try tousestrips that grew adjacent to each other on opposite sides of a rod. I dothis partly for the same reason you and Bob cite, but also for a couple ofadditional reasons. Garrison recommended placing strips in a rod in the same orientationrelative to each other in which they grew. I think this was one thing hewas wrong about. I've noticed that bamboo culms often have one side withgreater wall thickness and power fibers that the opposite side. Most plantswill respond to stresses, like prevailing winds or growth that is notperfectly vertical, by growing one side of the plant stronger that theother. If strips from such a culm are placed in the same orientation inwhich they grew, you can wind up with a stronger strip opposite a weakerstrip, resulting in a more pronounced spine. Placing adjacent stripsopposite in a rod will minimize this tendency by assuring that stripsopposite each other in the rod have similar power fibers. Another consideration if you use 2x2x2 staggering is that bamboo does notgrow straight; like most grasses, it grows with alternate branching. Ifyou look carefully at the grain in a culm you will notice that it grows in azig- zag pattern in the plane of the branches (aka "leaf nodes" if they arepresent). Strips from the sides of the culm where branches grew tend toneed less straightening, but more flattening, than strips grownperpendicular to the branches. Strips from opposite sides of the culm tendto kink in the same direction at nodes when they are placed pith sidestogether. Since there is a tendency for kinks to return afterstraightening, if these strips are placed opposite each other in a rod, eachwill reinforce the other's natural tendency and the finished rod will tendto kink in the same direction both strips originally did. However if stripsgrown adjacent to each other are placed opposite each other in the rod,their natural tendencies will cancel each other out. This is also aconsideration with 3x3 staggering, but not with Garrison, spiral, or randomstaggering. I don't think any of this makes much difference in how a rod fishes, butthere's so much more to bamboo rods than just fishing them. -- Robert Kope ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Spline Placement Bob With all the arguments that I have heard about strip selection, the mostconvincing to a one-at-a-time rodmaker like me is the one you have raised.If you use strips that are from the same region of the culm, it makes itjust so much easier to arrange the nodes in the blank, no matter, really,what system of staggering one uses. I have now built three rods with"left-overs", and while they are fine, they were not easy rods in which toarrange the nodes - and to me at least, the random mixture limits one totheuse of the loose Payne stagger.Nothing wrong with that, but I prefer the 2X2 arrangement, given my'druthers.Peter- ---- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 3:08 AMSubject: Fw: Spline Placement My opinion. Strip arrangment is important to me, ONLY because thenodesdon't run a perfect circle around a culm. I don't particularly line upsixstrips that were side by side on the culm, rather, i go through thesplits,pick out my best strips, match them to each other for node alignment.Problem with just picking an six for a section and going with it is thatifa node ring runs out a half an inch round the culm (I've seen them thatbadand worse) then there's no way you can get a get all your nodes aligned,especially if usuing a 3x3 method where you can see the aligmenmentmoreeasily. Make sense?Most likely, the strips that are side by side give you the bestalignment, but then again, some are not usable, due to worm holes,blemishes, node defects, etc., so many times it is impossible to get 6side proper... Of course if you spiral or random stagger, makes ondifference... Just my opinion, Bob -----Original Message-----From: jmpio@nhbm.com Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 9:38 AMSubject: Spline Placement Since the debate on tempering didn't get quite hot enough (yes, thatwasabad joke), I thought I'd ask another question sure to get some folksfiredup. How many of you actually go through the Garrison gymnasticsinvolvedinspline placement? In other words, do you actually care whether thesplinesare placed in the finished rod in the same relative position as theyweresplit from the culm? Whether you do or you don't, do you think itactuallymatters? from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Fri Mar 16 05:29:31 2001 f2GBTUe18684 Subject: Re: For the Newbies, Wannabies, and Anyone Else (Long, but whatelse is new?) f2GBTVe18685 As a newbie with 1 rod under my belt(I mean I have made 1 bamboo rod sofar), and 2 more in the works, I can't say enough how helpful everyone hasbeen. The thing that I find that I'm enjoying as much as the banter andinformation is the sense of "community." It seems that in this "digitalworld," as people get more and more connected electronically, they get moredisconnected on a personal and community level. I am looking forward tomaking gatherings and actually meeting people on the list who have been sohelpful and putting faces with names and email addresses. Thank you all, John K.-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: For the Newbies, Wannabies, and Anyone Else (Long, but whatelse is new?) Ya Ya Ya - I know this is reflective of the ol' fart that I am - but atone point in time bamboo rodmaking was sort of a lonely place - therewasn'tan internet or gatherings and all the other support mechism that has grownover the years. The basement cave was more of a alone place - andanswerswere scarce at time. Which is why you can hear the several answers for thesame question - we each worked out differing solutions to the same end. Andit wasn't a matter of money either - there just weren't. I know that as eachof us have come to this there is the anxiousness of finishing that firstrod - but several of us can vividly remember leaving the basement shop -shutting the light off on some unresolved issue and NOT being able to run tothe computer for that assuring reinforcement that awaits here. Out of itallthere is one thing that is abiding - when you watch the swirl of water asyou release that first fish on a rod that you have made yourself - I hopethat dimension of this never diminishes . . .Enjoy the adventure ! from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Mar 16 05:34:49 2001 f2GBYme19018 0000 sender ) Subject: Re: new Subject.... Really, a new subject - varnish (P&L R10) Martin, I know here in NJ the Varmor formula is different to conform tostricter clean air standards. That is why I go across the river to PA and buythe original formula. Marty Martin Jensen wrote: Hey Ray,I just got a new gallon of Varmor R10 and dipped a rod in it. It seemsdifferent. I'm wondering if they may have changed the formula like I haveheard other varnish manufactures have done? Seems thinner. This waspurchased just a week ago or so. Any experience with a new can ofvarnish?My last can of it was purchased close to 2 years ago and just was startingto thicken a bit. I thinned it down for one last rod which turned out fine(in an expected fashion), and then dumped it in favor of this new gallon. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 2:04 PM Subject: Re: new Subject Hi all,I cut off the blanks using a hack saw equipped with a fine tooth blade. Thesecret is to cut only half way thru and then turn the piece 180 degreesandcut off the rest. Polish the ends up with a grinding wheel.Ray----- Original Message -----From: "Bill Fink" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 11:18 AMSubject: new Subject To the ListJust to talk about something other than tempering for a while, let measkabout a subject that has sometimes been troublesome when I'm careless.Whatare your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure nice clean,crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill from bmaulucci@adelphia.net Fri Mar 16 05:59:04 2001 f2GBx3e19519 ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 06:58:33 -0500 Subject: List question Hi Guys:As an experiment, I logged on to the list with one of my free accounts. The in box was full.I have missed tons of messages at my regular account from the list, and I seem to get bumped regularly. Any ideas on how to fix this. Does the list automatically throw you off if it cannot deliver to you? Thanks,Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com from jczimny@dol.net Fri Mar 16 08:10:19 2001 f2GEAIe21348 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: new Subject.... Really, a new subject - varnish (P&L R10) Generally speaking, the varnish companys simply add less thinners when theyhaveto comply with a more stringent VOC regulation.John Z none wrote: Martin, I know here in NJ the Varmor formula is different to conform tostricter clean air standards. That is why I go across the river to PA andbuythe original formula. Marty Martin Jensen wrote: Hey Ray,I just got a new gallon of Varmor R10 and dipped a rod in it. It seemsdifferent. I'm wondering if they may have changed the formula like I haveheard other varnish manufactures have done? Seems thinner. This waspurchased just a week ago or so. Any experience with a new can ofvarnish?My last can of it was purchased close to 2 years ago and just wasstartingto thicken a bit. I thinned it down for one last rod which turned out fine(in an expected fashion), and then dumped it in favor of this new gallon. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 2:04 PM Subject: Re: new Subject Hi all,I cut off the blanks using a hack saw equipped with a fine tooth blade.Thesecret is to cut only half way thru and then turn the piece 180 degreesandcut off the rest. Polish the ends up with a grinding wheel.Ray----- Original Message -----From: "Bill Fink" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 11:18 AMSubject: new Subject To the ListJust to talk about something other than tempering for a while, let measkabout a subject that has sometimes been troublesome when I'mcareless.Whatare your preferred tools (saws?) and techniques to assure nice clean,crispand precise cutoffs on completed blanks? Thanks. Bill from parataper@hotmail.com Fri Mar 16 08:14:49 2001 f2GEEne21612 Fri, 16 Mar 2001 06:14:46 -0800 HTTP; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:14:46 GMT Subject: Fwd: RE: FILETIME=[74761D00:01C0AE23] This is what Cortland sent me. Doesn't sound promising. MP From: NANCY STOUT Subject: RE:Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 9:08:43 Dear Mr. Petrie, Thank you for your e-mail regarding silk fly lines. At this time, we are not looking into the possibility of making a silk fly line. We will forward your e- mail on to our Marketing Department. If we ever do decide to produce a silk fly line, we will let you know. Again, thank you for contacting the Cortland Line Company, Inc. Sincerely,Nancy L. StoutSales/Marketing DepartmentCortland Line Company, Inc.3736 Kellogg Road, PO Box 5588Cortland, NY 13045Phone: (607) 756- 2851Fax: (607) 753-8835 Cortland Line Company, Inc.http://www.cortlandline.com -----Original Message-----From: mark petrieSent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 1:33 PM Subject: Hi, I'm sure by this point you are receiving quite a few inquiries as tothe future production of silk lines. Although you do not currently producesuch a line, is it feasible or possible for you to do so, or that you might?I believe there would be a world wide market for such a line. MP_________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from Ralf.Ladda@t-online.de Fri Mar 16 09:13:02 2001 f2GFD0e24416 fwd07.sul.t-online.com Subject: Wood Fillers Hi everybody, I'm fixing to turn my own wood fillers for reel seats on my Proxonlathe. Are there standard lengths and standard diameters for woodfillers depending on the rod length or rod weight? Thanks for the help in advance! Ralf from Germany from rmoon@ida.net Fri Mar 16 09:27:36 2001 f2GFRZe25390 0000 Subject: Re: For the Newbies, Wannabies, and Anyone Else (Long, but whatelse is new?) --------------17E31210F2565E14DD85DF60 Come on Tony, you don't even get to the bottom of the old fart class. Youranecdote is really right on. I wrote an article once that I kept around foryears.One day I was talking with Gary LaFontaine, and he said why don't you send itto apublisher? I did and received a phone call from the publisher informing methatthey wished to publish the article. It boils down to just do it. If you do itwrong what have you lost --not much--but you have gained a great deal byseeing whatdidn't work. Tony Spezio wrote: After being intimidated for almost ten years I made my first rod in a week.I had my forms drilled and tapped for years and could not find anyone tomillthe groove.One evening while talking to Wayne when he was in here in Arkansas he said"whydon't you do it yourself." That was the push I needed. Three evenings latermyforms were ready to use. If it had not been for Wayne that evening I wouldprobably would still be waiting for someone to be milling my forms. This iswhatwe need is encouragement.Thanks Wayne for the push you gave me. That is all I needed to get on theball.BTW I am an old fart too but I have you beat. Will be 71 next week.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Wayne Cattanach wrote: Ya Ya Ya - I know this is reflective of the ol' fart that I am - but atone point in time bamboo rodmaking was sort of a lonely place - therewasn'tan internet or gatherings and all the other support mechism that hasgrownover the years. The basement cave was more of a alone place - andanswerswere scarce at time. Which is why you can hear the several answers forthesame question - we each worked out differing solutions to the same end. Andit wasn't a matter of money either - there just weren't. I know that aseachof us have come to this there is the anxiousness of finishing that firstrod - but several of us can vividly remember leaving the basement shop -shutting the light off on some unresolved issue and NOT being able to runtothe computer for that assuring reinforcement that awaits here. Out of itallthere is one thing that is abiding - when you watch the swirl of water asyou release that first fish on a rod that you have made yourself - I hopethat dimension of this never diminishes . . .Enjoy the adventure ! --------------17E31210F2565E14DD85DF60 Come on Tony, you don't even get to the bottom of the old fart LaFontaine, a phone call from the publisher informing me that they wished to publish what have you lost --not much--but you have gained a great deal by seeingwhat didn't work.Tony Spezio wrote:After being intimidated for almost ten years I mademy first rod in a week.I had my forms drilled and tapped for years and could not find anyoneto millthe groove.One evening while talking to Wayne when he was in here in Arkansashe said "why evenings later myforms were ready to use. If it had not been for Wayne that eveningI wouldprobably would still be waiting for someone to be milling my forms.This is whatwe need is encouragement.Thanks Wayne for the push you gave me. That is all I needed to geton the ball.BTW I am an old fart too but I have you beat. Will be 71 next week. Wayne Cattanach wrote: ol' fart that I am - but atone point in time bamboo rodmaking was sort of a lonely place - therewasn'tan internet or gatherings and all the other support mechism thathas grownover the years. The basement cave was more of a alone place - andanswerswere scarce at time. Which is why you can hear the several answers same question - we each worked out differing solutions to the same it wasn't a matter of money either - there just weren't. I know thatas eachof us have come to this there is the anxiousness of finishing thatfirstrod - but several of us can vividly remember leaving the basementshop -shutting the light off on some unresolved issue and NOT being ableto run tothe computer for that assuring reinforcement that awaits here. Outof it all of water asyou release that first fish on a rod that you have made yourself- I hopethat dimension of this never diminishes . . .Enjoy the adventure! --------------17E31210F2565E14DD85DF60-- from jmpio@nhbm.com Fri Mar 16 09:31:47 2001 f2GFVje25688 Subject: tapers A lot of tapers have been floating through the list recently. Is anyonecapturing these and putting them in the taper archive? Or do I need tostart my own taper notebook? from bmaulucci@adelphia.net Fri Mar 16 09:51:22 2001 f2GFpLe26634 Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:44:15 -0500 Subject: Re: tapers You should get a giant three ring binder, a 3 hole punch, and print them out. That's what I do, then I put them into Joe Byrd's program for safe keeping. Others may use Excel or MS Works.Bob At 08:34 AM 3/16/2001 -0700, jmpio@nhbm.com wrote:A lot of tapers have been floating through the list recently. Is anyonecapturing these and putting them in the taper archive? Or do I need tostart my own taper notebook? Bob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbmaulucci@adelphia.netbob@downandacross.com from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Fri Mar 16 10:28:43 2001 f2GGSge28661 Subject: Re: tapers I don't think there is an official taper list. Jerry Foster keepshis on the Rodmakers page, according to his own time and interestand criteria, and I keep mine on the Hexrod page. I limit my archive to classic ("old") rods from the list, and tapers get addedonly every few months, as time permits. If you like tapers you should keep your own archive. Computers crash,people crash, stuff happens.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 jmpio@nhbm.com wrote: A lot of tapers have been floating through the list recently. Is anyonecapturing these and putting them in the taper archive? Or do I need tostart my own taper notebook? from Canerods@aol.com Fri Mar 16 10:37:04 2001 f2GGb3e29094 Subject: Re: harbor freight mini lathe --part1_8e.1284a0f9.27e39ab2_boundary In a message dated 3/15/01 2:22:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, cathcreek@hotmail.com writes: Getting ready to order the 7 X 10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. Anyone have any comments on this if they have any experiences with it. I looked at the archives and saw that Terry liked it after he tightened it up. I appreciate any comments. Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com Robert, I've been looking at this lathe too and I believe Grizzly might be selling a 7x14 version of the same machine. Don Burns --part1_8e.1284a0f9.27e39ab2_boundary In a message dated3/15/01 2:22:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, cathcreek@hotmail.com writes: Getting ready to order the 7 X 10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. looked at the archives and saw that Terry liked it after he tightened it up. appreciate any comments. Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com Robert, I've been looking at this lathe too and I believe Grizzly might be selling a 7x14 version of the same machine. Don Burns --part1_8e.1284a0f9.27e39ab2_boundary-- from Canerods@aol.com Fri Mar 16 11:44:18 2001 f2GHiHe01964 Subject: Re: harbor freight mini lathe --part1_79.11a29d4e.27e3aa29_boundary Anyone interested in this lathe should look at: http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/alath.htm There's links from this site to an users group and some other 7x10 related sites. Don Burns --part1_79.11a29d4e.27e3aa29_boundary Anyone interested inthis lathe should look at: http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/alath.htm There's links from this site to an users group and some other 7x10related sites. Don Burns --part1_79.11a29d4e.27e3aa29_boundary-- from sats@gte.net Fri Mar 16 14:05:25 2001 f2GK5Oe05793 Subject: big fish on little rod. Last Sunday afternoon I visited a "Net" friend over in Orlando. We'dplaned to fish a river at a state park but he found it was littered with canoesand suggested we go to a pond not to far from his house(Never mind where.) We launched the canoe and he guided while I fished. It was a very smallpond, maybe only an acre or so, so I figured bream. I took my 6 1/2 ft 4wt.bamboo rod. After catching several bream (One of which actually too line -- andturnedout to be only 5 in long) and several fly changes, my friend, Jerry, suggestedIchange back to a red bead head wooly booger that I'd been using earlier. Irealized all the fly changes had eaten up my 4lb. tippet. The only thing I hadwith me was 6wt. (as we shall see, God was smiling on me.) After a few casts the line went tight. Nice bream. It headed out and Istarted putting a little pressure on it, trying to get it in so I could releaseit. When it felt the pressure the fish took off like a rocket at the cape!This was No BREAM! After about 4 or 5 minutes, I finally landed a 4 to 4 1/2lb. large mouth bass! This on a rebuilt 6 1/2 ft 4wt. bamboo rod. So the next time someone starts telling you about how bamboo isn't verystrongtell them you know a guy in Florida that takes bass up to 4 1/2lb. on them.... ----------------------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/sats from fiveside@net-gate.com Fri Mar 16 14:11:06 2001 f2GKB6e06098 Subject: Frustration To the List,Let me ask, am I the only guy who can absolutely never get through toCustomer Service at Harbor Freight? Bill from rcolo@ix.netcom.com Fri Mar 16 14:26:23 2001 f2GKQNe06850 Subject: Re: Frustration Don't know about Harbor freight Bill but sent a vintage Edward"s quad out toRay Gould 2 day, last friday UPS....He still hasn't got it. I have hadit with UPS...Too many screw ups.....Rich-----Original Message----- Subject: Frustration To the List,Let me ask, am I the only guy who can absolutely never get through toCustomer Service at Harbor Freight? Bill from DragonflyMAE@aol.com Fri Mar 16 14:53:38 2001 f2GKrbe07932 Subject: wooden rods --part1_ac.11fb2aaf.27e3d73f_boundary Does any one know were I might fin wooden rod sections? I've been asked to restore an old Farlow for a friend, and both tips are broken with the parts missing. This rod will probably go over a mantle or something. Any info would be a great help.Thank youMatthew --part1_ac.11fb2aaf.27e3d73f_boundary Does any one know were restore an old Farlow for a friend, and both tips are broken with theparts would be a great help. --part1_ac.11fb2aaf.27e3d73f_boundary-- from ajthramer@hotmail.com Fri Mar 16 15:16:20 2001 f2GLGJe08984 Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:16:17 -0800 Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:16:17 GMT Subject: Re: Ferrules revisited FILETIME=[56F29070:01C0AE5E] Seems like I remember Hardy used to do that on purposeA.J. From: Amy & Chad Subject: Ferrules revisitedDate: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:13:43 -0800 First of all thanks to all who replied to my query on how to straightenferrule stations. Ferrule station is now straight. I've now a question about section length. Currently wrapping my firstrod (PY midge taper). Just discovered a problem. When I cut my sectionsto length, I did not account for the length of the female ferrule (i.e.both sections were cut to the same length, minus tiptop, moisture plug,and reel seat cap adjustments). I misread my mannual and thought thatwas the right way to do it. I did use truncated ferrules so thedifference in length between but and tip sections is just under one halfof an inch. Will this cause problems (other than minor adjustments whenmaking the rod bag)? Seems to me that the only difference will be thatwith my cuts, the mated ferrules will be about one half inch closer tothe tip section than normal, and that this, if anything, would slightlyincrease speed of the rod. What would be the argument for measuring rodsection lenght to the end of the female ferrule instead of where thebutt section "stops" within the ferrule? BTW, the rod has a verypleasing medium/med-fast action. Seems to have turned out great. Cantwait to cast/fish it. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Mar 16 15:46:48 2001 f2GLkle09942 2001 13:40:26 PST Subject: mud season? all, i just recieved an email from "hook and hackle"titled 'mud season specials'. issn't it the truth?this time of the year i will get out of our mirkystrams and be cleaner than if i had walked the bank.actually it would be impossible to stand on most bankswithout leaving a butt print. i have a whole group ofteenage boys i have met over the winter that want tolearn how to flyfish. they will walk the river bankswith me and talk about conservation and insects andplants and laugh with intrest at my stories then askwhen we can all get together again. i don't think ilook like a grandpa yet. it is a wonder. i rememberand old man that took me to the woods and watched mefish and told me stories. those days have alot ofimpact on me yet. we flyfishermen and rod buildersare among the most blessed individuals. it has beensaid that with blessings come responsibilities. iwould encourage you all to be on the look out foryoung people to introduce to fishing. it could be thatthe most important thing we do with the rest of ourlives will be to take that one boy fishing. timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" "Here comes that dreamer!" they said to each other. "Come now, let's killhim....then we'll see what comes of his dreams." - Gen 37:19 __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from jmpio@nhbm.com Fri Mar 16 16:31:03 2001 f2GMV2e12176 Frustration I didn't know there was any customer service at Harbor Freight. -----Original Message----- Subject: Frustration To the List,Let me ask, am I the only guy who can absolutely never get through toCustomer Service at Harbor Freight? Bill from chris_wohlford@yahoo.com Fri Mar 16 16:39:06 2001 f2GMd5e12665 2001 14:39:08 PST Subject: RE: Frustration They have absolutly the WORST customer service I'veever seen. Been that way for years. Great prices...butI guess there is another price to pay. Chris --- jmpio@nhbm.com wrote:I didn't know there was any customer service atHarbor Freight. -----Original Message-----From: fiveside@net-gate.com Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 1:08 PM Subject: Frustration To the List,Let me ask, am I the only guy who can absolutelynever get through toCustomer Service at Harbor Freight? Bill __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Mar 16 16:40:43 2001 f2GMege12906 Subject: Re: mud season? Timothy,Well put. I have taught many a young person how to flyfish and showed them the ins and outs of a stream. One of the greatest rewards is when you run into some of these kids years later and they remember you and tell you how much of an impact you made on them in the early stages of flyfishing. It is fun to watch them (some have become adults by now) and see what theyhave become as fishermen and women in later years. What a blessing, I have told many of them when they have asked me how they can ever repay me, " thisis a gift that God gave me, the abilty to learn things well, and all I expect for payment is to just help someone else and pass it on". So many have told me that when they have asked someone for help thatthe reply that they got alot was,"I payed big bucks for an Orvis school to learn this and you can do the same". What a shame. Guys pass on the knowledgeand it will come back threefold. everyone on this list is lucky that we were given the ability and desire to enter such a rewarding sport.Bret from martinj@aa.net Fri Mar 16 16:56:12 2001 f2GMuBe13561 Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:56:11 -0800 Subject: RE: Ferrules revisited I have a hard time imagining that one half inch in the location of theferrule would have ANY difference other than esthetics. Even the rod bagshould not be made to so close a fit, that it could not accommodate thisdifference. I measure my cuts so that the finished rod sections (minus theferrule plug) are the same length. If there is going to be a difference, Iwould try to make the butt section longer by about a quarter inch or so, nomore.Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Ferrules revisited Seems like I remember Hardy used to do that on purposeA.J. From: Amy & Chad Subject: Ferrules revisitedDate: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:13:43 -0800 First of all thanks to all who replied to my query on how to straightenferrule stations. Ferrule station is now straight. I've now a question about section length. Currently wrapping my firstrod (PY midge taper). Just discovered a problem. When I cut my sectionsto length, I did not account for the length of the female ferrule (i.e.both sections were cut to the same length, minus tiptop, moisture plug,and reel seat cap adjustments). I misread my mannual and thought thatwas the right way to do it. I did use truncated ferrules so thedifference in length between but and tip sections is just under one halfof an inch. Will this cause problems (other than minor adjustments whenmaking the rod bag)? Seems to me that the only difference will be thatwith my cuts, the mated ferrules will be about one half inch closer tothe tip section than normal, and that this, if anything, would slightlyincrease speed of the rod. What would be the argument for measuring rodsection lenght to the end of the female ferrule instead of where thebutt section "stops" within the ferrule? BTW, the rod has a verypleasing medium/med-fast action. Seems to have turned out great. Cantwait to cast/fish it. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from martinj@aa.net Fri Mar 16 16:59:18 2001 f2GMxHe13774 Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:58:47 -0800 Subject: RE: tapers Yes. And yes Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: tapers A lot of tapers have been floating through the list recently. Is anyonecapturing these and putting them in the taper archive? Or do I need tostart my own taper notebook? from goodaple@tcac.net Fri Mar 16 17:00:29 2001 f2GN0Se13964 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 licensed1ebd4f8b91132ed01cf0e3e933da025) 0600 Subject: Re: Frustration Organization: Being in retail and covering a very large area I have found that there aresome methods to improve the service in this sort of a situation. One wouldbe to (with the individuals permission) forward the messages concerningtheir service to their higher execs. Most companies look to retain futurebusiness by providing good service. I would think that the execs would takethe need of providing better service as a serious impact on future sales. I(personally) would not make my purchase from them based on this alone.Whena rare situation with service comes to my level my first comment is "Whatwill help us to keep you as a customer?" Service in alot of cases is justnot what it used to be is it? Forwarding these messages on second thoughtmay not be in the interest of all individuals but going directly to thesource without naming other individuals would make them open their eyespossibly.It appears others from the list have made purchases from them inthe past and one would think they would want to keep that business fromgoing elsewhere as well as well as maintaining their "word of mouth"reputation. Good luck to you all, Randall R. Gregory NW AR. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Frustration I didn't know there was any customer service at Harbor Freight. -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 1:08 PM Subject: Frustration To the List,Let me ask, am I the only guy who can absolutely never get through toCustomer Service at Harbor Freight? Bill from nobler@satx.rr.com Fri Mar 16 17:14:33 2001 f2GNEWe14664 f2GNEZUd021791;Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:14:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Frustration No way ! H.F. is famous for the big stall ! I got fed up !GMA from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Mar 16 17:32:04 2001 f2GNW3e15163 Subject: Re: Wood Fillers In a message dated 03/16/2001 10:13:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ralf.Ladda@t-online.de writes: Hi Ralf,Most slide band type reel seats have a filleraround 3 1/2 in. long and are turned to around .650in. diameter Dave L. http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from nobler@satx.rr.com Fri Mar 16 17:39:46 2001 f2GNdje15445 f2GNdlUd026476;Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:39:47 -0600 Subject: Re: List question My cable service went down a couple of weeks ago for 2 entire days ! I lostmany messages, and got dropped from Rodmakers too. It seems any serverproblem gets you dropped pretty quick ! GMA from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Mar 16 18:24:54 2001 f2H0Ore16478 Subject: Re: Frustration I get through about 99% of the time. There are times I have to wait on holdbut I have always been treated well. Have not had any problems that werenot resolved in a short time. Maybe I am lucky.HF Customer Service # for those that don't have it. 1 800 444 3353 Thequicker way to get them is 1 805 388 2000.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Bill Fink wrote: To the List,Let me ask, am I the only guy who can absolutely never get through toCustomer Service at Harbor Freight? Bill from fiveside@net-gate.com Fri Mar 16 18:29:27 2001 f2H0TLe16665 Subject: Less Frustration To the List,Thanks for reinforcing my view of Harbor Freight Customer Service. Let metell you how I did finally get results. I called my credit card bank tocancel a bad HF charge. Next thing I knew I was in a 3 way conversation withChase Bank and the HF Presidential Assistant. When Chase Bank spoke theylistened. As they say on this list - it worked for me. Bill from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Mar 16 18:56:08 2001 f2H0u8e17213 Subject: Re: Less Frustration I guess I must of been lucky.I returned a lathe, and several other things at different times and the creditwas always on my next CC bill. Now that I have said that my next transactionmaybe a dud.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Bill Fink wrote: To the List,Thanks for reinforcing my view of Harbor Freight Customer Service. Letmetell you how I did finally get results. I called my credit card bank tocancel a bad HF charge. Next thing I knew I was in a 3 way conversationwithChase Bank and the HF Presidential Assistant. When Chase Bank spoketheylistened. As they say on this list - it worked for me. Bill from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Fri Mar 16 19:53:02 2001 f2H1que18278 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: I'm off to the races! Well all, latest update! After the second round of the casting tournament Iam tied into thefinals but I am pleased with the performance of the little rod against the BIGguns. Iswear there was a guy there I'm guessing he must have been using a 9.5 to10 foot salmonrod and he weighed over 300 pounds, made me look like a kid with a switch inmy hand!!Got lots of "oohs and ahhs", "What kinda rods that"?, and "Where did yaget it??"type questions.I must admit my casting in the first round sucked! I was landing short ofthetarget by about a foot. The announcer, sounding like he actually knew whathe wastalking about when I fell short of the first and second target, said " Ohhhthose shortlittle 2 wt rods just aren't made to cast any distance with accuracy". Theother castinginstructor quickly pointed out that I had been the only one to hit the fartarget andactually false cast past the end of the pool without any effort. I was amazedat howfast and furious the graphite guys seemed to be working their rods to getthe line out.I can't see how I ever used to find that relaxing??I redeemed myself in the second round as I got warmed up and got used tothe rod. Ishould find out tomorrow if I make the finals on Sunday. Once again I was theonlybamboo in the whole sportsman show and it drew lots of interest. Even if Igeteliminated now I take great joy in showing the big graphite guys that therewill alwaysbe a guy with a little bamboo stick right there beside them! Maybe next yearI'll take aPayne Canadian Canoe, watch em run then! IN YOUR FACE PLASTIC FREAKS!!!!Bamboo rules HAHA HA! More later, Shawn from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Mar 16 20:00:26 2001 f2H20Pe18517 VAA12389; "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Less Frustration I've not had any problems with Harbor Freight either. But then, I do most of my communication by email (hate the phone). Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 06:58 PM 3/16/01 -0600, Tony Spezio wrote:I guess I must of been lucky.I returned a lathe, and several other things at different times and thecreditwas always on my next CC bill. Now that I have said that my next transaction maybe a dud.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Bill Fink wrote: To the List,Thanks for reinforcing my view of Harbor Freight Customer Service.Let metell you how I did finally get results. I called my credit card bank tocancel a bad HF charge. Next thing I knew I was in a 3 way conversation withChase Bank and the HF Presidential Assistant. When Chase Bank spoketheylistened. As they say on this list - it worked for me. Bill from bmaulucci@adelphia.net Fri Mar 16 20:04:40 2001 f2H24de18779 Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:04:14 -0500 Subject: Re: I'm off to the races! Yeah, the Payne should kill em dead. Or a Dickerson 8015 Guide Special.Just don't let that 300 lb guy punk you off. Good luck,Bob At 09:55 PM 3/16/2001 -0500, Shawn Pineo wrote: Well all, latest update! After the second round of the casting tournament I am tied get me into thefinals but I am pleased with the performance of the little rod against the BIG guns. Iswear there was a guy there I'm guessing he must have been using a 9.5 to 10 foot salmonrod and he weighed over 300 pounds, made me look like a kid with a switch in my hand!!Got lots of "oohs and ahhs", "What kinda rods that"?, and "Where did ya get it??"type questions.I must admit my casting in the first round sucked! I was landing short of thetarget by about a foot. The announcer, sounding like he actually knew what he wastalking about when I fell short of the first and second target, said " Ohhh those shortlittle 2 wt rods just aren't made to cast any distance with accuracy". The other castinginstructor quickly pointed out that I had been the only one to hit the far target andactually false cast past the end of the pool without any effort. I was amazed at howfast and furious the graphite guys seemed to be working their rods to get the line out.I can't see how I ever used to find that relaxing??I redeemed myself in the second round as I got warmed up and got used to the rod. Ishould find out tomorrow if I make the finals on Sunday. Once again I was the onlybamboo in the whole sportsman show and it drew lots of interest. Even if Igeteliminated now I take great joy in showing the big graphite guys that there will alwaysbe a guy with a little bamboo stick right there beside them! Maybe next year I'll take aPayne Canadian Canoe, watch em run then! IN YOUR FACE PLASTIC FREAKS!!!! Bamboo rules HAHA HA! More later, Shawn Bob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbmaulucci@adelphia.netbob@downandacross.com from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Fri Mar 16 20:50:44 2001 f2H2oge19626 Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:50:03 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: harbor freight mini lathe --------------2917FCC3D7CAD2E24B804CF7 Don,thanks for the link! Awesome page and it is very informative! Shawn Canerods@aol.com wrote: Anyone interested in this lathe should look at: http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/alath.htm There's links from this site to an users group and some other 7x10 relatedsites. Don Burns --------------2917FCC3D7CAD2E24B804CF7 Don, Awesomepage and it is very informative! ShawnCanerods@aol.com wrote:Anyoneinterested in this lathe should look at:http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/alath.htmThere's links from this siteto an users group and some other 7x10 relatedsites.DonBurns --------------2917FCC3D7CAD2E24B804CF7-- from darrell@rockclimbing.org Fri Mar 16 21:56:28 2001 f2H3uRe20585 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) Subject: RE: hookkeepers mrmac@tcimet.net trick... I've seen a lot of them with the bottom cork all chewed up fromhooks. Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: hookkeepers Harry, I'm with you- I like Garrison's reasoning-I and other's that I know havegotten stuck, on occasion. Also- with small rods, it is a pain to have theleader halfway up the rod. I like to pass the leader around the reel andhook the fly on one of the guides. Just 30 years of fly fishing experiencespeaking here. John K.-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: hookkeepers Mac,I don't use hook keepers. Either I like Garrison's reasoning or I'mjust lazy or I stuck a hook in my hand once. I don't really remember... How 'bout the rest of y'all?? Harry Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Mar 16 21:57:58 2001 f2H3vwe20711 Subject: Re:I'm off to the races! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C0AE07.97F69E60 Way to Go!Go Get um!Tony Miller ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C0AE07.97F69E60 Shawn Way to Go!Go Get um!TonyMiller ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C0AE07.97F69E60-- from darrell@rockclimbing.org Fri Mar 16 22:21:35 2001 f2H4LYe21186 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) Subject: RE: tapers I have been putting in several in the Bamboo Rod Taper Database Forum at http://pub1.ezboard.com/fanglerscollectiblesbamboorodtaperdatabase I don't always get all the tapers from the list so if people want to addmore, please do! It's simply a free form and I just cut and paste thepertinent info into the message box. All tapers are welcome to be added.This does not require any maintainence on my part (GOOD). Please post your favorite taper there! Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message----- Subject: tapers A lot of tapers have been floating through the list recently. Is anyonecapturing these and putting them in the taper archive? Or do I need tostart my own taper notebook? from cadams46@juno.com Fri Mar 16 23:04:55 2001 f2H54te22060 00:03:43 EST Subject: Dip Motor I am just building my dip tank system and I have an old grill spit motorthat I had used in my previous attempt to finish a fly rod while it wasturning. Anyway the motor goes slow but not slow enough and I reallydon't want to mess with figuring some way to gear it down. Can I attachthe motor to a dimmer switch? Is there any reason this wouldn't work? And will it shorten the life of my motor? Thanks a bunch guys.C.R. Adams from martinj@aa.net Sat Mar 17 00:46:43 2001 f2H6kge23535 Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:46:43 -0800 Subject: RE: Dip Motor I did a little research on this and I don't think you can slow this type ofmotor down. I found that mine turned about twice as fast as I wanted so Iconnected a small spool to a large spool. The motor turned the large spooland the small spool wound up the line for the dip tube. I used spools thatwere exactly 1/2 the circumference of each other. This cut the speed inhalf. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- cadams46@juno.com Subject: Dip Motor I am just building my dip tank system and I have an old grill spit motorthat I had used in my previous attempt to finish a fly rod while it wasturning. Anyway the motor goes slow but not slow enough and I reallydon't want to mess with figuring some way to gear it down. Can I attachthe motor to a dimmer switch? Is there any reason this wouldn't work?And will it shorten the life of my motor? Thanks a bunch guys.C.R. Adams from timklein@qwest.net Sat Mar 17 02:22:26 2001 f2H8MPe25261 (63.225.127.201) Subject: Re: Frustration Bill Fink wrote: Let me ask, am I the only guy who can absolutely never get through toCustomer Service at Harbor Freight? Harbor Freight? Customer Service? (never thought of using those two words together in a sentence) With the talk of the 7x10 mini lathe going on now, I just thought I'd passalong the experience of a friend who has now been waiting nearly nine months (Don't worry too much for him though. He's just keeping the order out there The only success I've had with Harbor Freight is by returning the item forreplacement. The store here in Denver is very aware of the replacement partproblem and will usually take stuff back LONG after they probably should. Ifyou're dealing with them by mail-order though, I'm not sure there's a goodway to work around the service issue. My last (and final) order from Harbor Freight consisted of a half dozen orso items from their website that totaled up to around $40.00. I decided togo ahead and save myself the long drive to Denver and placed the onlineorder despite their $5.95 handling charge. All of the items were backordered except for the .99 cent pack of copingsawblades. My credit card was charged $5.95 for handling, $2.95 for shipping,and the .99 cents for the blades. $9.89! What a bargain! To top it off theyautomatically canceled each of the other items rather than backorderingthemsince they were each below their backorder dollar limit. I waited on hold for nearly 45 minutes to finally get a very generous offerof a .99 cent refund if I wanted to return the blades. Sorry, shipping andhandling aren't refundable, and I'd have to pay the shipping to return theblades! Kindly, they also offered to waive the $5.95 handling charge foreach of the items that weren't available, but I'd have to keep checking backwith them to find out when they came in since the items didn't meet theirbackorder limit. No, they couldn't waive the $5.95 for an equivalent item,only for the items on this order that were non-backorderable. I should have known better since I am a strong believer that you "get whatyou pay for". (Oh...except for the $9.89 coping saw blades. They were the worst pieces ofcrap I've ever seen. The first two broke within seconds of starting to usethem. The rest I threw away) ---Tim from timklein@qwest.net Sat Mar 17 02:29:50 2001 f2H8Tne25515 (63.225.127.201) Subject: Re: For the Newbies, Wannabies, and Anyone Else (Long, but whatelse is new?) Tony wrote: After being intimidated for almost ten years I made my first rod in aweek.I had my forms drilled and tapped for years and could not find anyone tomillthe groove. Wow! 10 years? I thought MY first rod took a long time! (After people inspected my first rod, they inevitably inquired how long ittook to make. "Oh, 5 years or so" I'd reply. For some reason, not manypeople asked me to make them a rod in those days) ---Tim from timklein@qwest.net Sat Mar 17 02:36:31 2001 f2H8aUe25778 (63.225.127.201) Subject: Re: List question Bob, I had the same problem a couple of times so I finally set my mail to"digest". This way I know I'm getting every message and it should be veryeasy to tell if you've been bumped since there's one message per day. Having said that though, I've never been bumped while my mail has been setto "digest"---Tim ----- Original Message ----- Subject: List question Hi Guys:As an experiment, I logged on to the list with one of my free accounts.Thein box was full.I have missed tons of messages at my regular account from the list, and Iseem to get bumped regularly. Any ideas on how to fix this. Does the listautomatically throw you off if it cannot deliver to you? Thanks,Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com from anglport@con2.com Sat Mar 17 05:23:39 2001 f2HBNce27115 Subject: Re: Dip Motor C.R.I fashioned a square wooden plug with a nail sticking out of it toforce-fit into the square hole. The nail becomes the take-up spool. If youfind a nail (or dowel) the right size, that'll slow it to exactly the speedyou want. I did have to glue a detergent-bottle spout (conical shaped) tothe back of the nail to prevent the string climbing the wooden plug, butthat seemed a small enough price to pay. It's cheap and easy enough to trybefore going to heroic measures!Art At 10:07 PM 03/16/2001 -0700, cadams46@juno.com wrote:I am just building my dip tank system and I have an old grill spit motorthat I had used in my previous attempt to finish a fly rod while it wasturning. Anyway the motor goes slow but not slow enough and I reallydon't want to mess with figuring some way to gear it down. Can I attachthe motor to a dimmer switch? Is there any reason this wouldn't work? And will it shorten the life of my motor? Thanks a bunch guys.C.R. Adams from stpete@netten.net Sat Mar 17 06:24:37 2001 f2HCOae27769 Sat, 17 Mar 2001 06:28:12 -0600 Subject: Re: Dip Motor This is a simple fix. Here's what I did (upon a recommendation from thislist years ago): instead of using a single pulley attached to the ceiling,use a double pulley up high and then a single pulley where you attach to therod. Remember your simple machines lessons in grade school? You'll bepulling twice as much string to lift the same height. Cuts the rate inhalf. Rick C. cadams46@juno.com wrote: I am just building my dip tank system and I have an old grill spit motorthat I had used in my previous attempt to finish a fly rod while it wasturning. Anyway the motor goes slow but not slow enough and I reallydon't want to mess with figuring some way to gear it down. Can I attachthe motor to a dimmer switch? Is there any reason this wouldn't work?And will it shorten the life of my motor? Thanks a bunch guys.C.R. Adams from mrmac@tcimet.net Sat Mar 17 06:49:49 2001 f2HCnme28151 Subject: cork burl I'm thinking of doing a handle in cork burl (I think it's called).Anyone know if it is as durable as regular cork? Is it "real" cork or acomposite of some type? Thanks again - mac from flytyr@southshore.com Sat Mar 17 07:12:35 2001 f2HDCYe28729 Subject: Re: For the Newbies, Wannabies, and Anyone Else (Long, but whatelse is new?) It was not the rod that took that long to make it was getting over theintimidation that took so long.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tim Klein wrote: Tony wrote: After being intimidated for almost ten years I made my first rod in aweek.I had my forms drilled and tapped for years and could not find anyone tomillthe groove. Wow! 10 years? I thought MY first rod took a long time! (After people inspected my first rod, they inevitably inquired how long ittook to make. "Oh, 5 years or so" I'd reply. For some reason, not manypeople asked me to make them a rod in those days) ---Tim from rmoon@ida.net Sat Mar 17 09:07:43 2001 f2HF7ge01620 Subject: FFF Bamboo Rod Symposium I am taking a little space to request the help of all rodmakers. The Federation of Flyfishers has asked me toconduct a Bamboo Rod Symposium for the 2002 Conclave to beheld in August 2002. I have the option of one or two days.I have attended gatherings at Merritt, and I have followedwith interest reports on gatherings in other locations. Itappears to me that each and everyone has been successful andwelcomed by all rodmakers. As some may know, I conductedthe Symposium held in Idaho Falls at the 1999 Conclave, andwhile I think the format was well received, I am reallyinterested in doing a super Symposium in 2002. First: I really know just what it is that you want to seeand do at the symposium. I don't care how zany it may be, Ireally want suggestions. (They call it brainstorming)Second, I could really use help in the planning andexecution of the symposium. I don't want to sound negative,but my health has left a great deal to be desired the lastfew years, and superman that I am, I just can't do it all.Please HELP me. You can send you responses directly to meat rmoon@ida.net. I promise to respond to all of you Rakph from saweiss@flash.net Sat Mar 17 10:30:02 2001 f2HGU1e03315 f2HGU2J86226;Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:30:02 -0500 Subject: Re: cork burl Organization: Prodigy Internet Mac,I have used it but not my bamboo rods. Its OK for heavier plastic rods. Ithink that it's non-traditional and too heavy for my split cane rods. It isa composite of ground cork and some kind of rubbery binder. Some peopleusea ring or two to dress up the end of a grip.Steve I'm thinking of doing a handle in cork burl (I think it's called).Anyone know if it is as durable as regular cork? Is it "real" cork or acomposite of some type? Thanks again - mac from GriffinJohn@msn.com Sat Mar 17 11:25:17 2001 f2HHPFe04064 Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:25:13 -0800 Subject: Re: Dip Motor =_NextPart_001_0000_01C0AEDE.10B5DA60" FILETIME=[39B61500:01C0AF07] ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C0AEDE.10B5DA60 CR: Speed of an induction (AC) motor is a function of line frequency (eg, 60 =Hz), gearing - if any - and the number of poles or windings; not voltage =or current. To change speed, a variable frequency drive (VFD) is required=. These are more expensive than just buying the correct speed timing moto=r in the first place. DC or universal (brush AC) motors offer more speed variability, but tend =to be either more expensive, or specialized application (eg, Dremel motor=). Cheap 120 VAC timing motors (ie; induction gear motors) can be had so eas=ily that its hardly worth messing with rotisserie motors and the like. Ch=eck Boston Gear, or do a web search: you'll find dozens of sources. John ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Dip Motor I am just building my dip tank system and I have an old grill spit motorthat I had used in my previous attempt to finish a fly rod while it wasturning. Anyway the motor goes slow but not slow enough and I reallydon't want to mess with figuring some way to gear it down. Can I attachthe motor to a dimmer switch? Is there any reason this wouldn't work?And will it shorten the life of my motor? Thanks a bunch guys.C.R. AdamsGet your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C0AEDE.10B5DA60 CR: r windings; not voltage or current. To change speed, a variable frequency=drive (VFD) is required. These are more expensive than just buying the c= d to be either more expensive, or specialized application (eg, Dremel mot= induct=ion gear motors) can be had so easily that its hardly worth messing with =rotisserie motors and the like. Check Boston Gear, or do a web search: yo= John ==----- Original Message ----- From= I = re= t= nks a bunch guys.C.R. AdamsGet your FREE download of MSNExplo=rer at http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C0AEDE.10B5DA60-- from BambooRods@aol.com Sat Mar 17 13:09:02 2001 f2HJ91e05776 Subject: Dean Turner? Anyone familiar with a maker named Dean Turner. A friend has knowssomeone that has several spinning rods of his (bamboo of course). from canerod@mwt.net Sat Mar 17 14:03:58 2001 f2HK3ve06588 f2HK3xw01053 Subject: Everett Garrison There is a first issue on e-bay #1417326693 that is still ratherinexpensive.( no financial interest etc.) Now that I've done it, whatis protocol concerning announcing this sort of thing? While I have nopersonal interest in this, perhaps someone else on the list does, and Ihave now thrown a monkey wrench in it for him/her. If someone,(mr. listguy Mike?) would address this I would be grateful as I'm constantlyrunning onto things on e-bay that other list members are looking for,and I don't know if I should post it. Sorry for the bandwith but I'mcurious. Tight lines & God Bless to all, Phil from lblan@provide.net Sat Mar 17 15:01:43 2001 f2HL1ge07564 Subject: RE: Everett Garrison So do I, and I'll bet any number of other people do as well. I've alwaysconsidered it socially unacceptable for a couple of reasons: someone heremay be bidding on the item, and do you really want to wade through anotherdozen or two posts that may or may not be of interest to you? I think apersonal note to the interested party would be more appropriate, as opposedto a post to the listserve. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 3:08 PM Subject: Everett Garrison There is a first issue on e-bay #1417326693 that is still ratherinexpensive.( no financial interest etc.) Now that I've done it, whatis protocol concerning announcing this sort of thing? While I have nopersonal interest in this, perhaps someone else on the list does, and Ihave now thrown a monkey wrench in it for him/her. If someone,(mr. listguy Mike?) would address this I would be grateful as I'm constantlyrunning onto things on e-bay that other list members are looking for,and I don't know if I should post it. Sorry for the bandwith but I'mcurious. Tight lines & God Bless to all, Phil from bh887@lafn.org Sat Mar 17 15:07:30 2001 f2HL7Te07749 "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: Dip Motor This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C0AEE3.C2F7C1C0 Well said, John. Adding the dimmer switch to the motor will also =increase the heat generated to dangerous levels. Equals motor burn out. =I use synchronous motors...old clocking drives...which run at speeds of =1 to six rpm. Solves the gearing problem easily. Lee Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 9:30 AMSubject: Re: Dip Motor CR: Speed of an induction (AC) motor is a function of line frequency (eg, =60 Hz), gearing - if any - and the number of poles or windings; not =voltage or current. To change speed, a variable frequency drive (VFD) is =required. These are more expensive than just buying the correct speed =timing motor in the first place. DC or universal (brush AC) motors offer more speed variability, but =tend to be either more expensive, or specialized application (eg, Dremel =motor). Cheap 120 VAC timing motors (ie; induction gear motors) can be had so =easily that its hardly worth messing with rotisserie motors and the =like. Check Boston Gear, or do a web search: you'll find dozens of =sources. John ----- Original Message -----From: cadams46@juno.comSent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 12:07 AM Subject: Dip Motor I am just building my dip tank system and I have an old grill spit =motorthat I had used in my previous attempt to finish a fly rod while it =wasturning. Anyway the motor goes slow but not slow enough and I =reallydon't want to mess with figuring some way to gear it down. Can I =attachthe motor to a dimmer switch? Is there any reason this wouldn't =work?And will it shorten the life of my motor? Thanks a bunch guys.C.R. Adams -------------------------------------------------------------------------=-----Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C0AEE3.C2F7C1C0 the motor will also increase the heat generated to dangerous = easily. Lee ----- Original Message ----- Griffin Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001= AMSubject: Re: Dip Motor CR: Speed of an induction (AC) motor is a function of line frequency = or current. To change speed, a variable frequency drive (VFD) is = These are more expensive than just buying the correct speed timing = the first place. DC or universal (brush AC) motors offer more speed variability, = motor). Cheap 120 VAC timing motors (ie; induction gear motors) can be = easily that its hardly worth messing with rotisserie motors and the = Check Boston Gear, or do a web search: you'll find dozens of =sources. John ----- Original Message ----- 12:07 AM I am just building my dip tank system and I have an = spit motorthat I had used in my previous attempt to finish a fly = enough and I reallydon't want to mess with figuring some way to = Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C0AEE3.C2F7C1C0-- from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sat Mar 17 15:35:12 2001 f2HLZBe08267 NAA02383 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: Everett Garrison I personally, see nothing wrong with posting it to the list as I am sure thatthere is more than one person, me included, that would be interested! Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 12:07 PM Subject: Everett Garrison There is a first issue on e-bay #1417326693 that is still ratherinexpensive.( no financial interest etc.) Now that I've done it, whatis protocol concerning announcing this sort of thing? While I have nopersonal interest in this, perhaps someone else on the list does, and Ihave now thrown a monkey wrench in it for him/her. If someone,(mr. listguy Mike?) would address this I would be grateful as I'm constantlyrunning onto things on e-bay that other list members are looking for,and I don't know if I should post it. Sorry for the bandwith but I'mcurious. Tight lines & God Bless to all, Phil from jojo@ipa.net Sat Mar 17 16:36:45 2001 f2HMaie09230 Subject: Re: Frustration Folks, When confronted with this type of buttheadedness, and one has paid with acredit card, there is one term worthy of remembrance: CHARGEBACK. Thecardholder prevails, and retailers almost never win on these things. It has beensaid that if one buys a ticket, room, etc. on Priceline.com that one isstuck. Not true. Chargeback. I wouldn't want anyone to get ideas about usingsuch a thing for nefarious and fraudulent purposes, but for legitimategripes, crappy merchandise, or just the general run-around -- Chargeback. M-D Bill Fink wrote: Let me ask, am I the only guy who can absolutely never get through toCustomer Service at Harbor Freight? Harbor Freight? Customer Service? (never thought of using those two words together in a sentence) With the talk of the 7x10 mini lathe going on now, I just thought I'd passalong the experience of a friend who has now been waiting nearly ninemonths (Don't worry too much for him though. He's just keeping the order outthere The only success I've had with Harbor Freight is by returning the item forreplacement. The store here in Denver is very aware of the replacementpartproblem and will usually take stuff back LONG after they probably should.Ifyou're dealing with them by mail-order though, I'm not sure there's a goodway to work around the service issue. My last (and final) order from Harbor Freight consisted of a half dozen orso items from their website that totaled up to around $40.00. I decided togo ahead and save myself the long drive to Denver and placed the onlineorder despite their $5.95 handling charge. All of the items were backordered except for the .99 cent pack of copingsawblades. My credit card was charged $5.95 for handling, $2.95 for shipping,and the .99 cents for the blades. $9.89! What a bargain! To top it offtheyautomatically canceled each of the other items rather than backorderingthemsince they were each below their backorder dollar limit. I waited on hold for nearly 45 minutes to finally get a very generousofferof a .99 cent refund if I wanted to return the blades. Sorry, shipping andhandling aren't refundable, and I'd have to pay the shipping to return theblades! Kindly, they also offered to waive the $5.95 handling charge foreach of the items that weren't available, but I'd have to keep checkingbackwith them to find out when they came in since the items didn't meet theirbackorder limit. No, they couldn't waive the $5.95 for an equivalent item,only for the items on this order that were non-backorderable. I should have known better since I am a strong believer that you "get whatyou pay for". (Oh...except for the $9.89 coping saw blades. They were the worst piecesofcrap I've ever seen. The first two broke within seconds of starting to usethem. The rest I threw away) ---Tim from bamboorods@siskiyou.net Sat Mar 17 19:16:31 2001 f2I1GUe10919 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-64293U2500L250S0V35) Sat, 17 Mar 2001 17:05:47 -0800 Subject: Amber linseed finish This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0AF06.009B0D80 Has anyone any recent, actual experience with the amber alchemy finishes =on wraps? This is the stuff sold by Russ and also its manufacturer. =Does this combat the tiny bubbles that SOMETIMES find themselves =trapped in the silk?Thanks,Chris ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0AF06.009B0D80 Has anyone any recent, actual = Thanks,Chris ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0AF06.009B0D80-- from jeichenlaub@loudoun.com Sat Mar 17 19:49:56 2001 f2I1nte11592 Subject: 16/64 Ferrules This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AF26.10D841C0 I received two sets of 16/64 ferrules and I can not find a taper that I =want to make. Does anyone have a taper or two that they like for a = ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AF26.10D841C0 I received two sets of 16/64 ferrules = they like for a 16/64. Thanks Joe E ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AF26.10D841C0-- from customrodbuilder@att.net Sat Mar 17 22:48:12 2001 f2I4mCe13519 mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net +0000 Subject: Planing Form & Binder Source This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0AF23.8EF34E40 Hello, Just starting to put together some tools for rod building. Could someone =point me in the direction of a source for planing forms and binders. Thanks for the help. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0AF23.8EF34E40 Hello, Just starting to put together some = forms and binders. Thanks for the help. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0AF23.8EF34E40-- from goodaple@tcac.net Sat Mar 17 23:23:54 2001 f2I5Nre14014 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 licensed1ebd4f8b91132ed01cf0e3e933da025) 0600 Subject: Re: Planing Form & Binder Source Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0AF39.B8E53680 Try Russ Gooding at Goldenwitch or Colorado Bootstrap. Email me tomorrow=to remind me and I'll look up their web addresses for you. As far as the =binder goes, they are relatively easy to make. There is a good =description/plan in The Lovely Reed by Jack Howell. A great book for the =beginner. Also check out Wayne Cattanach's book. Both wonderfull books = heard were very good. Also in interest of other form builders their are =others available, hopefully some can come to mind of other list members =and they will post them for you. Keep in mind that you can always make =your own forms. Good luck, Randall Gregory NW AR. Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 9:48 PMSubject: Planing Form & Binder Source Hello, Just starting to put together some tools for rod building. Could =someone point me in the direction of a source for planing forms and =binders. Thanks for the help. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0AF39.B8E53680 Try Russ Gooding at Goldenwitch or = Bootstrap. Email me tomorrow to remind me and I'll look up their web = good description/plan in The Lovely Reed by Jack Howell. A great book = beginner. Also check out Wayne Cattanach's book. Both wonderfull books = beginners and skilled makers. Other books are available which I have = very good. Also in interest of other form builders their are others = hopefully some can come to mind of other list members and they will post = Randall Gregory NW AR. ----- Original Message ----- Jim Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001= PMSubject: Planing Form & = Source Hello, Just starting to put together some = forms and binders. Thanks for the help. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0AF39.B8E53680-- from cadams46@juno.com Sun Mar 18 00:38:01 2001 f2I6c0e14931 01:37:47 EST Subject: dip motors Well thanks again guys. The wealth of knowledge here and no doubt yearsof answering the same one hundred questions has really made this list agreat asset. I did try the motor with a dimmer switch just to see whatit'd do and it did seem to heat up quickly. Regardless it sounds likemost people get away with a small shaft and regular speed.Spent most of today digging a 3" hole in my basement floor. I hadhopedto get it 48" deep but I gave up at 24". That was as deep as my armcould reach and the large serving spoon I was digging with wasn't lookingto good. Thanks againbest wished,C.R. Adams from ajthramer@hotmail.com Sun Mar 18 02:02:22 2001 f2I82Le15845 Sun, 18 Mar 2001 00:02:19 -0800 Sun, 18 Mar 2001 08:02:18 GMT fbcwin@3g.quik.com, mrmac@tcimet.net Subject: RE: hookkeepers FILETIME=[C1184890:01C0AF81] I think it is also because alot of granger rods were true 'work rods'. Perhaps owned by an even higher percentage of 'bohemians' who didn't know any better. :) My first rod was a Granger A.J. From: Darrell Lee mrmac@tcimet.netCC: rodmakers Subject: RE: hookkeepersDate: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:55:33 -0800 trick... I've seen a lot of them with the bottom cork all chewed up fromhooks. Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 6:35 PM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: hookkeepers Harry, I'm with you- I like Garrison's reasoning-I and other's that I know havegotten stuck, on occasion. Also- with small rods, it is a pain to have theleader halfway up the rod. I like to pass the leader around the reel andhook the fly on one of the guides. Just 30 years of fly fishing experiencespeaking here. John K.-----Original Message-----From: Harry Boyd Cc: rodmakers Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:30 PMSubject: Re: hookkeepers Mac,I don't use hook keepers. Either I like Garrison's reasoning or I'mjust lazy or I stuck a hook in my hand once. I don't really remember... How 'bout the rest of y'all?? Harry Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Hey guys, how about a new thread - hookkeepers - they haven't beenrattled around much before, I don't think. --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from petermckean@netspace.net.au Sun Mar 18 03:33:01 2001 f2I9Wxe16705 f2I9Wr094850; Subject: Re: dip motors Did you ever watch that movie about the bloke who dug out of a penitentiarywith a geologist's hammer? Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: dip motors Well thanks again guys. The wealth of knowledge here and no doubt yearsof answering the same one hundred questions has really made this list agreat asset. I did try the motor with a dimmer switch just to see whatit'd do and it did seem to heat up quickly. Regardless it sounds likemost people get away with a small shaft and regular speed.Spent most of today digging a 3" hole in my basement floor. I had hopedto get it 48" deep but I gave up at 24". That was as deep as my armcould reach and the large serving spoon I was digging with wasn't lookingto good. Thanks againbest wished,C.R. Adams from dickay@alltel.net Sun Mar 18 06:42:29 2001 f2ICgSe18203 srv.alltel.net Sun, 18 Mar 2001 06:42:30 -0600 Subject: Re: dip motors The "Shawshank Redemption" wasn't it? Good movie. He really set thatwarden up for a fall. And provided for his friend.Dick Fuhrman If fishing is religion, Fly Fishing is high church.Tom Brokaw. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: dip motors Did you ever watch that movie about the bloke who dug out of apenitentiarywith a geologist's hammer? Peter----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 5:41 PMSubject: dip motors Well thanks again guys. The wealth of knowledge here and no doubtyearsof answering the same one hundred questions has really made this list agreat asset. I did try the motor with a dimmer switch just to see whatit'd do and it did seem to heat up quickly. Regardless it sounds likemost people get away with a small shaft and regular speed.Spent most of today digging a 3" hole in my basement floor. I had hopedto get it 48" deep but I gave up at 24". That was as deep as my armcould reach and the large serving spoon I was digging with wasn'tlookingto good. Thanks againbest wished,C.R. Adams from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Sun Mar 18 06:52:48 2001 f2ICqle18442 Subject: Re: Planing Form & Binder Source This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C0AF80.A4183B20 Try Lon Blauvelt in Falmouth, Maine. He has a link on the Rodmakers site. John K.-----Original Message-----From: Jim Date: Saturday, March 17, 2001 11:49 PMSubject: Planing Form & Binder Source Hello, Just starting to put together some tools for rod building. Could someonepoint me in the direction of a source for planing forms and binders. Thanks for the help. JIM ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C0AF80.A4183B20 Try Lon Blauvelt in Falmouth, = has a link on the Rodmakers site. John K. -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Saturday, March 17, 2001 11:49 PMSubject: Planing = Binder SourceHello, Just starting to put together some = planing forms and binders. Thanks for the help. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C0AF80.A4183B20-- from setissma@email.msn.com Sun Mar 18 07:12:24 2001 f2IDCNe18778 Sun, 18 Mar 2001 05:12:20 -0800 Subject: Re: Planing Form & Binder Source FILETIME=[10B3DD80:01C0AFAD] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C0AF84.548F5F80 I got most of my tools from Jeff Wagner, in Parma Ohio. Good stuff that =saved me a great deal of time. He and his wife also graciously gave a =significant amount of their time to answer my questions, and their =advice helped me get through some rough spots as I was starting out. I believe their web site is wagnerrods.com, or something like that. But build your own forms and binders. It is an essential part of the =experience and you need to go through as much pain and suffering as I =did. Jeff Schaeffer Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 7:54 AMSubject: Re: Planing Form & Binder Source Try Lon Blauvelt in Falmouth, Maine. He has a link on the Rodmakers =site. John K.-----Original Message-----From: Jim Date: Saturday, March 17, 2001 11:49 PMSubject: Planing Form & Binder Source Hello, Just starting to put together some tools for rod building. Could =someone point me in the direction of a source for planing forms and =binders. Thanks for the help. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C0AF84.548F5F80 I got most of my tools from Jeff = Ohio. Good stuff that saved me a great deal of time. He and his wife = and their advice helped me get through some rough spots as I was = out. I believe their web site is = something like that. But build your own forms and binders. = essential part of the experience and you need to go through as much pain = suffering as I did. Jeff Schaeffer ----- Original Message ----- John Kenealy = =; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 = AMSubject: Re: Planing Form &= Source Try Lon Blauvelt in Falmouth, = has a link on the Rodmakers site. John K. -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Saturday, March 17, 2001 11:49 PMSubject: Planing = Binder SourceHello, Just starting to put together some = planing forms and binders. Thanks for the help. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C0AF84.548F5F80-- from utzerath@execpc.com Sun Mar 18 09:21:59 2001 f2IFLxe20711 f2IFM2r44424; f2IFM0078260; Subject: Re: cork burl mac, There is such a thing as "real" cork burl sold in slabs by someone inCalifornia (if I recall), but I've not used any personally. The burl youget from Anglers Workshop et al. is a chunky brown composition that I triedwith a dark green graphite blank. It is quite a bit harder to the touch,and the sandpaper, than is natural cork. The slight increse in weight isn'tobjectionable. I didn't like the color much either (sort of grimy looking),but it might be OK as an accent ring on a heavily flamed rod. It seems verydurable. Years ago some of the guys on the VFS board talked about chunkscoming out. I think it depends on who makes it. What I have been looking for a source of the finer-grained, gray corkcomposite that is often used on fighting butts. Anyone know? TIA & TLJim U ----- Original Message ----- Subject: cork burl I'm thinking of doing a handle in cork burl (I think it's called).Anyone know if it is as durable as regular cork? Is it "real" cork or acomposite of some type? Thanks again - mac from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 18 09:38:46 2001 f2IFcje21047 HAA06107 Subject: $330 bastard? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AF7F.C24CE2E0 I have been reading the archives and came across the the topic of the =Bastard bamboo rod. I went to his sight and read his archives on his =ordeal in making bamboo rods. Well suffice it to say, he spent over =$150,000, had to rebuild his mills several times, brought in =professionals to help and consult him and wanted $4,400 for his first =rod. He now sells his rods for $600-$830 and with and extra tip and no =rod case. Isn't it Ironic, the God of the High grass must fish with =bamboo and it isn't a Bastard either. I wonder if he still says he can =build a rod just as good as a T&T for $150 or if rodmakers charge to =much? ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AF7F.C24CE2E0 I have been reading the archives and = the the topic of the Bastard bamboo rod. I went to his sight and read = archives on his ordeal in making bamboo rods. Well suffice it to say, he = over $150,000, had to rebuild his mills several times, brought in = to help and consult him and wanted $4,400 for his first rod. He now = rods for $600-$830 and with and extra tip and no rod case. Isn't it = T&T for $150 or if rodmakers charge to =much? ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0AF7F.C24CE2E0-- from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Sun Mar 18 09:44:55 2001 f2IFise21330 Subject: Re: $330 bastard? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0370_01C0AF98.764161A0 Let's not go there... again Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 10:48 AMSubject: $330 bastard? I have been reading the archives and came across the the topic of the =Bastard bamboo rod. I went to his sight and read his archives on his =ordeal in making bamboo rods. Well suffice it to say, he spent over =$150,000, had to rebuild his mills several times, brought in =professionals to help and consult him and wanted $4,400 for his first =rod. He now sells his rods for $600-$830 and with and extra tip and no =rod case. Isn't it Ironic, the God of the High grass must fish with =bamboo and it isn't a Bastard either. I wonder if he still says he can =build a rod just as good as a T&T for $150 or if rodmakers charge to =much? ------=_NextPart_000_0370_01C0AF98.764161A0 Let's not go there... =again ----- Original Message ----- Vigil Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 = AMSubject: $330 bastard? I have been reading the archives and = the the topic of the Bastard bamboo rod. I went to his sight and read = archives on his ordeal in making bamboo rods. Well suffice it to say, = professionals to help and consult him and wanted $4,400 for his first = now sells his rods for $600-$830 and with and extra tip and no rod = it Ironic, the God of the High grass must fish with bamboo and it = much? ------=_NextPart_000_0370_01C0AF98.764161A0-- from caneman@clnk.com Sun Mar 18 10:20:57 2001 f2IGKue21933 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:21:11 -0600 Subject: Shop Visitor Well, today seems a bit boring, guys... Why? Nothing to do! Oh, theweather's great, the fishing would be good if it wasn't the weekend and Iwouldn't have to shoot or cut my way into the river, but fishing isn'twhat's on my mind.I remember a few months back there was a thread about burnout. Whatdoyou do when you get burned out a bit. Well, usually I fish, or I read, or Ijust step back and think about why I started doing this to begin with andthe "fire" comes back.Yesterday, I found an entirely new cure for mild burnout. Troy Millerof the list, came up from Houston to visit, bring the plane irons he hasbeen working on (very nice work, by the way) and see exactly what goes onaround this place in a normal day. I hope he wasn't too overwhelmed. Whenyou walk in the front door of the house, you are immediately greeted by aGray Wolf/Siberian Husky Hybrid who runs straight at you, not viciously, butthinking that all humans have one purpose on earth, and that is to love her!Immediately after that, met by a 6'4" man with a pony tail and a fresh lathedent on his forehead...When you look around the first room in the house, there's no doubtyou're in a flyfishers/rodmakers house... Rodmaking books covered in dust ina makeshift bookshelf setting next to a fly tying table, a round rack with10 or 12 cane rods in it, flyfishing, fly tying books laying on every table,a Mounted Whitetail deer's head on the wall... with more cane rods hangingacross the antlers. Several taper sheets laying on top of the entertainmentcenter, flanked by little flyfishing collectables.Going into the kitchen from that room, you'll see a rack full of rodtubes, with new tubes, old tubes, classic rods, etc., in it. The firstthing you see in the kitchen table is a glass topped table. OH, I don't eatthere... the big maroon recliner is better suited for that That glass toptable is where I sharpen plane blades and wrap my rods. The kitchenitself... well, one cabinet is nothing but flyfishing pictures, silk thread,special items people have given me related to cane rods or flyfishing... andthe biggie... you absolutely CANNOT miss the 40" x 50" Michael Simons workof art "The Brown Trout" that is the centerpiece of my living room...Out the door of the kitchen is the shop. Nasty, disorganized, bambooshavings and dust everywhere... the famous mankiller lathe on a bench,boxeshanging on the wall with unfinished reel seat hardware, the Harley sittingbetween the shop fridge and the heat treating oven, pontoon boat stored indisarray on top of the table saw (also a mankiller... Have scars to proveit). Typical of what a small town looks like after a tornado.OK, got the picture... You see what this young man sees when he walksthrough the door. NOT what you might call a "habitat" for a normal humanbeing, but the ideal habitat for an old balding biker that happens to make afly rod or two.Troy came with the impression that we'd talk a little cane, plane on astrip or two to test out the plane blades he made and maybe break for lunch,talk some more. Well, the best laid plans of mice and men, blah, blah,blah... He rolled in at about 9:30 or so and the talking part only lastedabout an hour, and I just couldn't stand it anymore. To see someone excitedabout cane rods as he was, fueled something inside of me that I haven't feltin awhile. Don't get me wrong, I love making cane rods, but that "tingle"disappears sometimes, and this visit proved shortly that the tingle wasstill inside.I couldn't stand it anymore. Out to the shop we went. I showed himsplitting, straightening, pressing... I didn't just show him, I guess Ishould say, I showed him HOW, and let him take my spot at the workbenchandget a feel for what he's about to jump into. At first, I thought, "We'llpress and straighten a couple of strips and you can get the feel of workingthe cane a little bit..." Well, the next thing I know, we have 6 stripslaying on the bench, straightened, pressed, roughed and ready to bind forheat treating. What the hell... let's fire up the oven. A little more talkabout cane, it's properties, the forms, flyfishing in general, took up the