from live2huntfish@yahoo.com Sat Mar 10 18:05:17 2001 f2B05Fe26892 (216.241.172.21) Subject: Heddon Black Beauty Hello All, I have a Heddon Black Beauty (model 17) that could use a new reel seatspacer, butt cap, and hardware. If anyone knows where I could get one Iwould appreciate the information. Thanks,Al Rittlive2huntfish@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from piscator@macatawa.org Sat Mar 10 18:31:34 2001 f2B0VXe27311 "Rodmakers" Subject: Payne Parabolics This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0A999.1FAD10A0 Greetings, Will someone share the tapers for Jim Payne's Parapolics? I think he = Also, for all those I talked to about the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo in =Southfield, SWMBO's schedule changed at work, so I can't go. %^( I think she did it on purpose so's I can't have any fun. Brian ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0A999.1FAD10A0 Greetings, Will someone share thetapers = Also, for all those I talked = Midwest Fly Fishing Expo in Southfield, SWMBO's schedule changed at = = I can't have any fun. Brian ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0A999.1FAD10A0-- from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sat Mar 10 19:00:33 2001 (may be forged)) f2B10We27842 (5.5.2653.19) "'rodmakers '" Subject: RE: Tempering: was HT Ovens Rick -- That is one of the most informative and interesting posts I've seen in along time. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Tempering: was HT Ovens Guys (and gals), I have often wanted to jump in to the discussions on tempering cane andthe physical and chemical changes which may or may not occur with heattreating. I'm still not sure that I have much to offer but let me tellyou what I do know. My better half is a chemical engineer and has been employed for the last23 years with a company that processes raw plant fibers into specializedcellulose materials for industrial, food and paper manufacturer's. Hercompany's cellulose interests are with cotton fibers, softwood pulps,and hardwood pulps. Bamboo is a plant which has a very high percentageof cellulose compared to many plants. As you probably already know, thewoody parts of plants is composed almost entirely of two materials: 1)cellulose, the relatively long chained fibers and 2) lignin, which actsmuch like a glue holding the cellulose fibers together. Buckeye'sbusiness is primarily geared to chemically and physically cooking thewood pulps in order to break the lignin- cellulose bonds in the woodchips to refine cellulose for other products. Heating wood chips alters the properties of the lignin and causes some'cross-linking' of the cellulose fibers. I am convinced that heatingbamboo does more than drive out moisture. We are most likely alteringthe bonds of the cellulose chains themselves. Just the right amount ofheat and we increase the cross-linking between cellulose chains. Toomuch and we begin to break the bonds and possible destroy the integrityof the chains themselves. Don't ask me the magic temperature and time. I've asked my wife and shestarts throwing in so many factors and lignin types and celluloselengths that I gave up long ago of getting any kind of real answer fromher. After all, her job has been 23 years of full time work to find themagic answers for her own cellulose problems. What we are left with is to find the answers on our own. I don't havethe time, but the tempering study done by Lloyd Cross available athttp://members.home.net/fishoregon/cane/temper.html or through the linkat Gordon Johnson's page located athttp://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml is a start. I think Mr.Cross leaves out many of the chemical changes caused by heat treatingand focuses on the carbonizing effect which gives us the change incoloration. I am convinced there is much more going on such as changesin chemical bonds between actual cellulose fiber chains. We may neverknow. Who would fund such a study? My position has been to believe that some amount of temperatureincreases the bonds between cellulose fibers and therefore the rigidityof the bamboo and the resistance to sets, but that too much breaks thebonds down. Trial and error. I heat treat and hope it is not too much. A final word about Ammonia Browntoning. You know that many 'plastics'such as screwdriver handles are actually cellulose. Yes, if you takepure cellulose, dissolve it in Sulfuric solutions, then regenerate thefibers through another chemical bath, you can get cellulose fibers whichare cross linked in all sorts of directions and form a solid 'plastic'.Think of rayon, cellophane, sausage casings, etc. All celluloseregenerated solids. Ammonia Browntoning may cause some of this andcrosslink fibers as well. Something to think about. Rick C. from mrmac@tcimet.net Sat Mar 10 19:22:49 2001 f2B1Mme28291 Subject: Southfield show Got to escape for a while today and made the Southfield show for acouple hours. I was quite pleasantly surprised at how many bamboo rodsI was able to look at. Tony Miller is there with the flamed rattanwrapped rod; Ron Barch and John Z; Don Schroeder; Bob Summer; to namejust some that come quick to mind. Saw THE rod. On the cover ofRodmaker magazine about a year ago there was a Darryl Whitehead rod withfull spiff engraved ferrules. It was there (or one just like it), aswell as a second DW rod which was engraved and blackened. Both werepretty special. Some nice quads were at the same booth. Saw one rodwith what I think was a handle done from the cedar bark idea. So,there's plenty of goodies if you look around some. If anyone's thinkingof makin' it tomorrow, you should - there's some real nice rods toreview. Oh, yah, there was all that other "stuff", too, as well as some of thosefunny round rods. ;-) regards, mac from ctn45555@centurytel.net Sat Mar 10 20:21:12 2001 f2B2LBe28969 f2B2L8G01801 Organization: Smith & Boyd Subject: ferrule problems I just finished putting the ferrules on my first rod. The tip sectionswent great-dead on straight to my eye. The butt section ferrule has aslight bend. Glued it with Devcon 2-ton so would rather not try to takeit off. This is my first rod, but I'll venture a guess that rod actionwill not be noticably impaired. My question is, should I apply some heatand try to straighten it? If I mount the sections together, with thebend facing up, it's not really noticable, so I'm tempted to leave italone. Any suggestions or thoughts on the matter would be greatlyappreciated. Thanks in advance, Chad S. Boyd from lblan@provide.net Sat Mar 10 20:50:51 2001 f2B2ope29708 Subject: RE: Another Pantone Trick This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0A9AC.356BCC20 If you have an airbrush, you can use it to do touchup with Pantone pens.Make an adapter to hold the pen tip in front of the nozzle, or simple holdit there, and let the airstream blow the ink out of the tip - no streaks!. Iwatched our illustrator at work using them to amazing effect on hisdrawings. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 4:31 PM Subject: Coloring bamboo rod sections All, Some time back Chris McDowell told me about using Minwax stain sticks, amagic marker-like device, to match replacement bamboo rod sections. I'vealsoused the stain on scarf repaired areas to match the coloring. Greg Hall, a fellow that I've done some scarf repairs wanted to experimentwith other methods since the minwax stain didn't penetrate well and hecameup with using Pantone pens. Don Burns PS - Greg's method is somewhat loosely quoted below: ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0A9AC.356BCC20 have an airbrush, you can use it to do touchup with Pantone pens. Make = adapter to hold the pen tip in front of the nozzle, or simple hold it = let the airstream blow the ink out of the tip - no streaks!. I watched = drawings. Larry Blan Canerods@aol.comSent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 Coloring = Some time back Chris McDowell told me about using Minwax stain= a magic marker-like device, to match replacement bamboo rod = also used the stain on scarf repaired areas to match the coloring. = Greg Hall, a fellow that I've done some scarf repairs wanted = experiment with other methods since the minwax stain didn't = and he came up with using Pantone pens. Don Burns = Greg's method is somewhat loosely quoted below: <<Of= you can pass on the Pantone Pen method. But first, a few = 1. I have only done this with Pantone brand pens so I don't = other permanent type marker pens will work. Pantone pens are = in art supply stores and sometimes in fly shops. 2. Make = your cane surface is clean and free of any residual finishes such = varnish etc.. 3. You should always experiment or practice on a = or pieces of the same or similar cane you want to stain. This = sealing the stain with spar etc. In other words familiarize = it thoroughly before you do it on the actual rod. 4. Seal = stained area with spar varnish that has not been thinned with = spirits. I just warmed it a little. I have not tried anything other = spar to seal the area. So other materials, shellac or polyurethane = may work but I haven't yet tried them. The basic thing is = cautious and be sure that this will work for you and that you know = get the desired effect. I used a Pantone Pen and let it sit = and then rubbed lightly with 4/0 steel wool. It seems that the ink = penetrated very well and doesn't seem affected by the spar. Color = ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0A9AC.356BCC20-- from darrell@rockclimbing.org Sat Mar 10 21:02:23 2001 f2B32Ne00112 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) Subject: RE: Dickerson info Hi Alan, With your permission, I'd like to add your pics to my photo gallery page ofmy website at www.vfish.net/gallery.htm Would you mind? If anyone else would like to have their pics published in my gallery page,please send them to me... I've neglected this page for a long time. Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Dickerson info Shawn, This is in response to a couple postings you made to the list. First, yourequested pictures of Dickerson rods, I have attached pictures of 4 rods. from top to bottom, 1)A Dickerson 861711, 2)A Dickerson 901812restored byJim Schaff, 3) A Dickerson 8014 built by Jim Schaff using a blank made byL.L. Dickerson and components from the Dickerson shop, 4) ACommemorativeDickerson 7613 taper by Jim Schaff. Jim did this rod from new cane,components from the Dickerson shop and planed the blank on the Dickersonforms. Jim bought Dickerson's shop from Tim Bedford, who bought outDickerson, and later teamed with Jerry Stein on the book "Dickerson, the Manand His Rods". I think it's safe to assume that Jim's work accuratelymatches the work of Dickerson as closely as is possible so I think thepictures are representative, even though all the work is not originalDickerson. You also requested guide spacing info for a 7613 so I measuredmine. Again, this was a rod built by Jim Schaff, but my guess would be thatit's pretty accurate. In any case, I've fished it quite a bit and it's apleasure so the guide spacing must be appropriate whether it matches theoriginal or not. from tip toward butt the measurements were: 4", 9-5/8",15-1/4", 21-1/4", 27-1/2", 34-1/4", 41-1/4", 43-3/4", 54-1/8", and 63-5/8".I only included a couple pictures because of file size. If there issomething specific you would like to see, let me know and I can try to getit. Al Rittlive2huntfish@yahoo.com from BambooRods@aol.com Sat Mar 10 22:42:45 2001 f2B4ghe01285 Subject: Gathering Info for Alex To All,Alex Huber (maker from Austria) was wanting to make it to the Grayrock Gathering but due to his schedule will not be able to attend. He will be able to come to the US within the next year or less and wanted to know what other gatherings he could attend. Could those in the know post dates for other gatherings. As he is currently not subscribed to the list I am copying him on this email so respondents should "reply to all". TIADoug Hall from miangler@yahoo.com Sun Mar 11 00:04:41 2001 f2B64fe02742 2001 22:04:43 PST Subject: binder question/taper request Hello again! I have decided to build a binder! Does anyone have asuggestion on what I should use for the blank cradlesand where I can obtain the right sized wheel for themain crank. I need to know where to buy these things,I do not have the tools necessary to turn my own.Also, a while ago on ebay I saw a Lee Wulf rod basedon the one he used in his bush plane days that was a 6footer he used for salmon fishing. Does anyone havethe taper! Just an interest of mine. Well, progresscontinues on my rod making work area! Thanks for allthe help! Especially to Mac and Winston! Mike =====http://miangler.homestead.com/home.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Mar 11 07:12:15 2001 f2BDCDe06304 hme0.telusplanet.net Sun, 11 Mar 2001 06:12:09 -0700 Subject: Re: Tempering Rick, I read with real interest your comments. The testing I've done revealed: - Heating a raw culm causes the check split to open suggesting a reductionin either volatile oils/moisture and a compaction of the remaining fibers.The means that we should get "more bounce for the oz." in treated cane.- A raw strip planes very easily and as the temperature/time of thetempered strip was increased the plane seems to take more effort to pushthrough the cane.- A raw strip will yield long and continous shavings whereas when the caneis "over-tempered", the shavings seem to break off. This suggests thelignin has been profoundly changed. These shavings seems to have electricproperties and want to stick to the plane.- The strips I tested were selected from the same culm, planed aftertreatment [ except for the un-tempered one ] - Testing was done to check for oscillation [ damping of the cane after thecast was delivered ], set and initial strength. There seemed to be littlecorrelation between the results with the un-tempered cane about midwaythrough the pack in test results.Folks use a variety of ovens, heat sources from propane torches tobarbecues, electric heat guns and the like. Most of them stick with themethod they prefer suggesting it works for them. Do any of the methodsmakesense, that's where I'm stumped. My test results suggest otherwise. But,I've invested a sack of bucks and a lot of time not to temper + thecollective wisdom of the builders past all say that I should continue totemper.God, I hope someone figures this out quick - the whole subject has beendriving me crazy for years.Maybe Bob Milward has got it figured - I sure hope so. Hate to see all thetime builders have used on tempering wasted if it doesn't do anything. catch ya' Don At 11:31 AM 3/10/01 -0500, Rick Crenshaw wrote:Guys (and gals), I have often wanted to jump in to the discussions on tempering cane andthe physical and chemical changes which may or may not occur with heattreating. I'm still not sure that I have much to offer but let me tellyou what I do know. My better half is a chemical engineer and has been employed for the last23 years with a company that processes raw plant fibers into specializedcellulose materials for industrial, food and paper manufacturer's. Hercompany's cellulose interests are with cotton fibers, softwood pulps,and hardwood pulps. Bamboo is a plant which has a very high percentageof cellulose compared to many plants. As you probably already know, thewoody parts of plants is composed almost entirely of two materials: 1)cellulose, the relatively long chained fibers and 2) lignin, which actsmuch like a glue holding the cellulose fibers together. Buckeye'sbusiness is primarily geared to chemically and physically cooking thewood pulps in order to break the lignin- cellulose bonds in the woodchips to refine cellulose for other products. Heating wood chips alters the properties of the lignin and causes some'cross-linking' of the cellulose fibers. I am convinced that heatingbamboo does more than drive out moisture. We are most likely alteringthe bonds of the cellulose chains themselves. Just the right amount ofheat and we increase the cross-linking between cellulose chains. Toomuch and we begin to break the bonds and possible destroy the integrityof the chains themselves. Don't ask me the magic temperature and time. I've asked my wife and shestarts throwing in so many factors and lignin types and celluloselengths that I gave up long ago of getting any kind of real answer fromher. After all, her job has been 23 years of full time work to find themagic answers for her own cellulose problems. What we are left with is to find the answers on our own. I don't havethe time, but the tempering study done by Lloyd Cross available athttp://members.home.net/fishoregon/cane/temper.html or through thelinkat Gordon Johnson's page located athttp://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml is a start. I think Mr.Cross leaves out many of the chemical changes caused by heat treatingand focuses on the carbonizing effect which gives us the change incoloration. I am convinced there is much more going on such as changesin chemical bonds between actual cellulose fiber chains. We may neverknow. Who would fund such a study? My position has been to believe that some amount of temperatureincreases the bonds between cellulose fibers and therefore the rigidityof the bamboo and the resistance to sets, but that too much breaks thebonds down. Trial and error. I heat treat and hope it is not too much. A final word about Ammonia Browntoning. You know that many 'plastics'such as screwdriver handles are actually cellulose. Yes, if you takepure cellulose, dissolve it in Sulfuric solutions, then regenerate thefibers through another chemical bath, you can get cellulose fibers whichare cross linked in all sorts of directions and form a solid 'plastic'.Think of rayon, cellophane, sausage casings, etc. All celluloseregenerated solids. Ammonia Browntoning may cause some of this andcrosslink fibers as well. Something to think about. Rick C. from dickay@alltel.net Sun Mar 11 08:04:06 2001 f2BE45e06917 Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:04:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Pack rods Jim, In the archives you'll find a 4', 2 piece, 4wt. by A.J. Thramer. Itseems that this might make an excellent Pack Rod.Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Pack rods The last 2 rods I made are a Payne #98 7'#4 in 3 pc. and a Young Midge6'3" #4 also in 3 pc. Love 'em! Marty Okay, I know I'm getting ahead of myself here. Haven't finished thefirstrod, and I'm already thinking about the second. I do a lot ofbackpackingwhere I fish small streams. I've always wanted a really small pack rod,Ieven seriously considered a 5-piece Winston 8' graph**e rod lastsummer.What I really want is a 7' 3-4 wt, 3 piece. My question is, on a rodthatshort, it seems that using two ferrules would have a couple ofundesirablecharacteristics, excess weight slowing the rod, and two significant flatspots. Is anyone building short 3-piece rods and how do they cast? from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Mar 11 08:12:20 2001 f2BECKe07334 "rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Silk Line maintenance Chris,While both lines may improve from a break-in period, the Phoenix is quitefishable, and pleasant to cast, right out of the box. The Thebault, bycontrast, isvery stiff and can't be immediately fished.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Chris Bogart wrote: Chris The truth is both lines need a break in period - just likea pair of jeans - you need a couple of good days of hard fishingto make the lines soft and smooth. Once you have done thisthen they need minor maintaince - best rule is to dress the linewhen you go out - take a break after 4 hours - let line drywhile you take the break and redress the line for the rest ofthe day - no problems at all. I am currently fishing some linesthat are over 50 years old with no problems - can you saythat about your plastic lines? Chris from stpete@netten.net Sun Mar 11 11:09:00 2001 f2BH8we09304 Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:12:40 -0600 Subject: Re: Tempering Don, That's the kind of testing that will lead to the results we need. It wassuggested that I fund research through the National Science Foundation. Goodsuggestion, but I don't have the time or experience to do the research. Itwould be cool to get a grant to buy the ovens, cane, electron microscope,gaschromatograph, various tensile strength, tear strength, resiliency testmachines and , in effect, fund a whole climate controlled lab to find theanswers. I think that in the end, just our homebrewed testing will tell uswhat we need to know. One thing to think about. Before doing any work on wood chips, my wife'splantmakes sure that the chips are all in the same 'condition'. In other words,they are soaked, tumbled, dried, etc. so that they come out the samepercentmoisture, density, etc. In the past, makers have recommended a specificheattreatment for all raw cane. But perhaps the moisture content and otherconditions of the cane BEFORE heat treating are an important factor.Considering local and seasonal humidity and temperature, what works best inDenver, CO may not be the optimum heat treating regimen in New Orleans,LA. BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes and removeshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much of theremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will never rehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moisture asitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture content to agreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Rick, I read with real interest your comments. The testing I've done revealed: - Heating a raw culm causes the check split to open suggesting a reductionin either volatile oils/moisture and a compaction of the remaining fibers.The means that we should get "more bounce for the oz." in treated cane.- A raw strip planes very easily and as the temperature/time of thetempered strip was increased the plane seems to take more effort to pushthrough the cane.- A raw strip will yield long and continous shavings whereas when the caneis "over-tempered", the shavings seem to break off. This suggests thelignin has been profoundly changed. These shavings seems to have electricproperties and want to stick to the plane.- The strips I tested were selected from the same culm, planed aftertreatment [ except for the un-tempered one ]- Testing was done to check for oscillation [ damping of the cane after thecast was delivered ], set and initial strength. There seemed to be littlecorrelation between the results with the un-tempered cane about midwaythrough the pack in test results.Folks use a variety of ovens, heat sources from propane torches tobarbecues, electric heat guns and the like. Most of them stick with themethod they prefer suggesting it works for them. Do any of the methodsmakesense, that's where I'm stumped. My test results suggest otherwise. But,I've invested a sack of bucks and a lot of time not to temper + thecollective wisdom of the builders past all say that I should continue totemper.God, I hope someone figures this out quick - the whole subject has beendriving me crazy for years.Maybe Bob Milward has got it figured - I sure hope so. Hate to see all thetime builders have used on tempering wasted if it doesn't do anything. catch ya' Don from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sun Mar 11 11:23:49 2001 f2BHNme09609 JAA09628 (5.5.2650.21) "'stpete@netten.net'" Subject: RE: Tempering Bob Millward has already done that and presented a lot of his findings atCorbett Lake last year and will be publishing a book shortly. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 8:07 AM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: Tempering Don, That's the kind of testing that will lead to the results we need. It wassuggested that I fund research through the National Science Foundation. Goodsuggestion, but I don't have the time or experience to do the research. Itwould be cool to get a grant to buy the ovens, cane, electron microscope,gaschromatograph, various tensile strength, tear strength, resiliency testmachines and , in effect, fund a whole climate controlled lab to find theanswers. I think that in the end, just our homebrewed testing will tell uswhat we need to know. One thing to think about. Before doing any work on wood chips, my wife'splantmakes sure that the chips are all in the same 'condition'. In other words,they are soaked, tumbled, dried, etc. so that they come out the samepercentmoisture, density, etc. In the past, makers have recommended a specificheattreatment for all raw cane. But perhaps the moisture content and otherconditions of the cane BEFORE heat treating are an important factor.Considering local and seasonal humidity and temperature, what works bestinDenver, CO may not be the optimum heat treating regimen in New Orleans,LA. BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes and removeshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much of theremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will never rehydrateatambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moistureas itdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture content toagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Rick, I read with real interest your comments. The testing I've done revealed: - Heating a raw culm causes the check split to open suggesting areductionin either volatile oils/moisture and a compaction of the remaining fibers.The means that we should get "more bounce for the oz." in treated cane.- A raw strip planes very easily and as the temperature/time of thetempered strip was increased the plane seems to take more effort topushthrough the cane.- A raw strip will yield long and continous shavings whereas when thecaneis "over-tempered", the shavings seem to break off. This suggests thelignin has been profoundly changed. These shavings seems to haveelectricproperties and want to stick to the plane.- The strips I tested were selected from the same culm, planed aftertreatment [ except for the un-tempered one ]- Testing was done to check for oscillation [ damping of the cane afterthecast was delivered ], set and initial strength. There seemed to be littlecorrelation between the results with the un-tempered cane about midwaythrough the pack in test results.Folks use a variety of ovens, heat sources from propane torches tobarbecues, electric heat guns and the like. Most of them stick with themethod they prefer suggesting it works for them. Do any of the methodsmakesense, that's where I'm stumped. My test results suggest otherwise.But,I've invested a sack of bucks and a lot of time not to temper + thecollective wisdom of the builders past all say that I should continue totemper.God, I hope someone figures this out quick - the whole subject has been> driving me crazy for years.Maybe Bob Milward has got it figured - I sure hope so. Hate to see all thetime builders have used on tempering wasted if it doesn't do anything. catch ya' Don from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Mar 11 12:00:29 2001 f2BI0Re10171 Subject: Re: Tempering rodmakers BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes and removeshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much of theremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moistureas itdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture content to agreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood. Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's been heatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and that is"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) the USForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and they foundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually see inthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nice countrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sunday offso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down the trackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow I gotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the point isheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 years todevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically to thecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you as thescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hard toplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection compared witha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as it couldbefore the difference should be noticeable. TonyAV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igive express permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward this message. /*************************************************************************/ from DEMARALON@aol.com Sun Mar 11 12:22:58 2001 f2BIMve10574 Subject: Re: Gathering Info for Alex rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Perhaps Alex could make the Roscoe, NY gathering in the Catskills on September 7, 8, 9, 2001. Then there is the Southern Rod Gathering in Mountain Home, Arkansas in late October. He might want to visit their website, http://www.curro.net/srg99/ for more information. Harry Boydwas and is the driving force of this gathering. For what it is worth I found his website - http://www.canerods.com/srg.htm - very interesting. Eileen Demarest from cmj@post11.tele.dk Sun Mar 11 12:50:24 2001 f2BIoNe11133 +0100 Subject: Sv: Tempering f2BIoOe11134 Tony wrote (snipped) It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection compared witha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as it couldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Usually I dont overcook my bamboo, but using my "Pipe of Fire" makes thebamboovery dark. After heattreating I split and then soak the strips for wetstraigthening. My experience is that the bamboo litterally dries while looking at it, and Icannot detect any difference when compared to the bamboo that is heattreated,but not yet soaked. In short: flamed bamboo is not influenced by being soaked and dried. regards,carsten from oborge@mwt.net Sun Mar 11 16:41:32 2001 f2BMfVe13737 Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I have donethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. It floatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float better andlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message----- McDowell Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebault lines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Mar 11 17:11:28 2001 f2BNBSe14257 Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:11:28 -0500 (5.0.2195;1) Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Olaf I am not offended. Someone needs to carry the torch I passed Reed the following: Plastic Lines are as good as they get right out ofthe box and they go down hill from there. Silk lines onlyget better with fishing and age. Chris On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:41:24 -0600, Olaf Borge wrote: Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I have donethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. It floatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float better andlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu McDowellSent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebault lines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from HomeyDKlown@att.net Sun Mar 11 17:53:11 2001 f2BNrAe14891 ;Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:53:03 +0000 Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Olaf, No offense taken. It's good to hear "the word" from those who really know. Thanks, Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I have donethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. It floatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float better andlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message----- McDowell Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebault lines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun Mar 11 17:54:34 2001 f2BNsXe15015 Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:44:33 -0600 "rodmakers" Subject: Re: Tempering What a great discussion ! All I can add to it is with balsa wood, we knowthat soaking it in ammonia destroys much of the lignum (lignin ?) and thebalsa is never as strong as before. I mention this only because of theammonia treatment to cane some use.GMA from sniderja@email.uc.edu Sun Mar 11 18:49:31 2001 f2C0nUe15942 Subject: Re: Tempering "rodmakers" Lignin is correct for the cementing compound in wood fibers and relatedcells. It is derived from lignum, the latin word for wood. Occasionally itis incorrectly transliterated. At 06:02 PM 03/11/2001 -0600, nobler wrote:What a great discussion ! All I can add to it is with balsa wood, we knowthat soaking it in ammonia destroys much of the lignum (lignin ?) and thebalsa is never as strong as before. I mention this only because of theammonia treatment to cane some use.GMA from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sun Mar 11 19:24:19 2001 (may be forged)) f2C1OIe16548 (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Tempering Another implication of this line of thinking has to do with the importanceof so-called waterproof finishes. Seems likely that heat tempering reducesthe capacity of the bamboo to absorb water. That, in addition to the factthat no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. I've heard stories of rodsthat became noodles from too much moisture - perhaps this was becausetheywere not adequately tempered, rather than from bad varnish. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. It's possible that the two are closely enough related that agiven shade of bamboo indicates a fairly predictable degree of tempering (orover-tempering). But the color change probably has to do with sugars in thebamboo rather than the molecules involved in structural changes. So it'salso possible that long slow heating insufficient to cause much color changecould produce the other necessary changes, or that quick heating thatchanges the color doesn't do much useful tempering. Hope this is addressedin the upcoming publications mentioned in an earlier post. Certain aspects of this discussion inspire me to share with the list a wiseold saying - hard won ignorance is the most persistent kind. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Tempering BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much of theremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moistureasitdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture content to agreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood. Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's been heatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and that is"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) the USForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and they foundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually see inthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nice countrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sunday offso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down the trackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow I gotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the point isheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 years todevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically to thecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you as thescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hard toplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection compared witha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as it couldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony/*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igive express permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward this message. /*************************************************************************/ from Rcolo@ix.netcom.com Sun Mar 11 19:28:25 2001 f2C1SPe16739 Subject: Re: Silk Line maintenance Olaf....keep up the good work. Just cast my first silk line on the snow3 hours ago. Can't wait to get in the water......Rich P.S. Shouldbe perfect for the 6' one piece T@T taper I had sent along Dennis Haftel wrote: Olaf, No offense taken. It's good to hear "the word" from those who really know. Thanks, Dennis -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 5:41 PM Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I have donethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. It floatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float better andlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu McDowellSent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebaultlines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from cadams46@juno.com Sun Mar 11 20:09:01 2001 f2C290e17549 21:08:40 EST Subject: Re: binder question/taper request Mike,I'd suggest a farm and ranch store. I've found they carry all sorts ofgreat things for binders. If you have a Cal Ranch Store, or CountryGeneral or something. They had a great supply of pullies and such. As cradels. Hope that helps.Sincerely,C.R. Adams from dnorl@qwest.net Sun Mar 11 20:39:04 2001 f2C2d3e18180 0000 (63.228.46.245) Subject: Re: Silk Line maintenance Keep us posted Olaf, I'll put a worm on my tounge and wait with baitedbreathDave-----Original Message----- rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I havedonethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. Itfloatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float betterandlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.comMail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.netPhone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu McDowellSent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebaultlines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from mtbrown@sprynet.com Sun Mar 11 21:55:40 2001 f2C3tbe19399; ,"and Collecting" Subject: Re: RODMAKERS digest 290 HI All: Do any of you know of any bamboo rodmakers in Houston TX. I aminterested in spending some time with someone experienced in the art in myarea.Mike----- Original Message ----- ;"and Collecting" ;"and Collecting" Subject: RODMAKERS digest 290 RODMAKERS Digest 290 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Coloring bamboo rod sections 2) RE: Dickerson info 3) Heddon Black Beauty 4) Payne Parabolics 5) RE: Tempering: was HT Ovens 6) Southfield show 7) ferrule problems 8) RE: Another Pantone Trick 9) RE: Dickerson info 10) Gathering Info for Alex 11) binder question/taper request 12) Re: Tempering 13) Re: Pack rods 14) Re: Silk Line maintenance 15) Re: Tempering 16) RE: Tempering 17) Re: Tempering 18) Re: Gathering Info for Alex 19) Sv: Tempering from nobler@satx.rr.com Sun Mar 11 22:10:58 2001 f2C4Ave19681 Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:01:03 -0600 Subject: Re: Tempering If anything I think the "ring of fire" was/is an aid to preserving the cane.My PHY's are over 40 years old, and still perfect. Just one guys opinion.GMA from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Mar 11 23:01:10 2001 f2C51Ae20678 hme0.telusplanet.net Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:01:05 -0700 Subject: Re: Tempering Tony, Here is a copy of the message that I sent Rick a moment ago addressing thesame issue. Somebody and I really sorry I can't remember who, tempered and rehydratethe cane over a couple of weeks or months or years. I just can't rememberthe test. Do recall the result though. Tempered cane would not return tothe moisture content of previously untempered cane. The cane sunk to 0%androse only to 6>8% whereas before tempering it was 12% as I recall it. Seemslike the inter-spacial areas wouldn't allow the moisture to intrude again.Whether this matters spit or not depends on the test used to determinestrength/oscillation/set I previously described. As Patrick Coffey mentioned, Bob Milward replicated the testing I've donepreviously. His results and conclusions should be in his new book. Whetherhis conclusions are the same as mine are unknown. Others, however, havebasically found that untempered cane may/may not preform as well astempered cane which is the same conclusion that I found and has baffled mesince.What must be remembered is that whether we temper or not, flame or notdoesn't really matter much if the performance of the finished rod isunaffected by either tempering or flaming. regards, Don At 02:01 AM 3/12/01 +0800, Tony Young wrote:BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes and removeshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much oftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as much moistureas itdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture content toagreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood. Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's been heatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and that is"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) the USForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually see inthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nice countrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down the trackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow I gotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the point isheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically to thecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you as thescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hard toplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection compared witha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as it couldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony/*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igive express permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Mar 12 00:07:55 2001 f2C67se22057 Subject: Re: Tempering Hi Don and all,I recall the same info coming to us at one of our early Corbett lakeworkshops. I believe it was from Jess Wells who was a violin maker fromOregon I think. The test showed that the cane started out at 12-13% , wasdriven down to zero, and returned to 6% or so.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tempering Tony, Here is a copy of the message that I sent Rick a moment ago addressingthesame issue. Somebody and I really sorry I can't remember who, tempered and rehydratethe cane over a couple of weeks or months or years. I just can'trememberthe test. Do recall the result though. Tempered cane would not return tothe moisture content of previously untempered cane. The cane sunk to 0%androse only to 6>8% whereas before tempering it was 12% as I recall it.Seemslike the inter-spacial areas wouldn't allow the moisture to intrude again.Whether this matters spit or not depends on the test used to determinestrength/oscillation/set I previously described. As Patrick Coffey mentioned, Bob Milward replicated the testing I've donepreviously. His results and conclusions should be in his new book. Whetherhis conclusions are the same as mine are unknown. Others, however, havebasically found that untempered cane may/may not preform as well astempered cane which is the same conclusion that I found and has baffledmesince.What must be remembered is that whether we temper or not, flame or notdoesn't really matter much if the performance of the finished rod isunaffected by either tempering or flaming. regards, Don At 02:01 AM 3/12/01 +0800, Tony Young wrote:BTW, discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. Heating the lignin materials, vaporizes andremoveshydroxil groups (water and water based materials) crystalizing much oftheremaining material. Much of that crystalized material will neverrehydrate atambient temperatures meaning the cane will never hold as muchmoistureas itdid before. So tempering will permanently reduce the moisture contentto agreat extent. Sounds important to me. Rick This is exactly what I think is the significant part of heat treating isand I think this for three reasons.When heat bending wood either dry or with steam once the wood has beenbentthere is no going back. Trying to modify the bend will break the wood.Whenthe wood is broken the change in the cell structure where it's beenheatedis obvious and it never becomes as saturated again as before heating andallowed to dry or cool.When everything is going well hot wet wood is indeed plastic so callinglignum plastic under certain conditions is a very accurate description. The second reason is one I've mentioned on the list in the past and thatis"cave men" and Aborigines and other hunter gatherer people have prettymuchalways heated the business ends of their spears in fire to harden them.When I mentioned this before it was said on the list that (I think) theUSForest service tested the hardening effects of heat on wood and theyfoundit had no permanent effect but that is counter to what you actually seeinthe field. There are groups of Aborigines still more or less doing thehunter gathering thing for at least some parts of their lives in the topend of Australia particularly in the Northern Territory in Arnham Landwhich is what you'd call a reservation except it's pretty damn nicecountrywith some truly huge Barrumndi that are something else to catch.I worked in Arnham Land for a few months and I usually had every Sundayoffso I'd take my "Covered Wagon" Land Cruiser to the local camp and let allthe kids pile into and on top of the vehicle and we'd bounce down thetrackto the (crock infested) river chased by a hundred or so dogs. Anyhow Igotto know all these people pretty well and they showed me a few things likespear making and all that. They straighten a spear by heating it andbending it in the fork of a tree till it's arrow straight but the pointisheated too charing it for about a foot. The outer and very chared part isground away by rubbing the point against a rock.Now these guys live simply to say the least but what they have and do isabsolutely necessary to live and no more and they have had 40,000 yearstodevelop this life style into an art form so if they say charing a spearhardens the point I'm pretty inclined to believe them. This of course may mean nothing at all *if* bamboo doesn't have lignum. The third reason is when you heat treat bamboo there is resinous smellingsmoke. Driving this out of the bamboo must do something chemically tothecells which appears to be the case and seems to have evidence that it's aone way thing. Don mentioned in a post just before this one that heated bamboo is a lotharder to plane than raw bamboo as any nodeless maker can tell you asthescarfs are cut after heat treating, soaking the bamboo makes planing iteasier still. Don also mentioned over done bamboo is not only very hardtoplane and that the swarf is "chips" or very short curls and these seem tohave electrical properties. I think it's so dry it just picks up static from the plane passing over it but this doesn't happen with raw bamboo.If these well done strips are left for a few weeks they become a littleeasier to plane but never get as easy to plane as raw bamboo.It would be an interesting experiment to over cook some bamboo, soak itover night or a week, let it dry then test it for deflection comparedwitha raw strip. If the cooked bamboo is unable to take up moisture as itcouldbefore the difference should be noticeable. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A man who works with his hands is a laborer.A man who works with his hands and brain is a craftsman.A man who works with his hands and brain and heart is an artist. As required in accordance with new draconian Australian copy right laws Igiveexpress permission for anybody so wishing to copy or forward thismessage. /*************************************************************************/ from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Mon Mar 12 05:46:50 2001 f2CBkne25945 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:46:47 -0500 Subject: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Some great threads on ovens and tempering lately. A lot of thoughtprovoking information but as always if I think too much I get confused. There is no single (or should that read simple) answer to the question I amgoing to pose since everyone tempers/heat treats differently but here goes. I built a Cattanach style oven and how long should one heat treat theirstrips? There has been some variance in the times mentioned in previous posts.Someone said they were using their kitchen oven and "baking" for 20minutes,the books seem to say around 7.5 minutes. Maybe the answer can't beexpressed in minutes due to the variance in methods but is there a test oran observation us first timers can use to determine when done? Thanks again for your helpTim from dutcher@email.msn.com Mon Mar 12 07:24:09 2001 f2CDO9e27005 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:24:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners That is a great question, Tim. I am still a bit confused as to what weare trying to accomplish here. 1. Are we trying to reduce the moisturecontent only, in the cane? Which in my mind would mean using an oven withlower temperatures with exhausted convection air and longer time so as todehydrate the cane.. 2. Are we trying to temper the cane i. e., change thephysical properties by using high temperature? I can see that lowering the moisture content of the cane is a definiteplus in my way of thinking. And, I tend to go along with tempering the cane.The question I have is, are we not talking about two completely separateissues here? It seems to me by going straight to high temperature wouldcause the moisture to boil out there by causing cellular damage. I do notbelieve this would cause a noticeable weakness as much as it would cause aninconsistency in the overall strength of the cane. The moisture trying toescape the cane at high temperature will take the path of least resistancethere by further weakening the natural weak spots in the cane. However,heattreating a dehydrated cane would be more likely to produce an improved andconsistent rod and the results should be repeatable. Regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message -----From: Tim Wilhelm Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:43 AMSubject: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Some great threads on ovens and tempering lately. A lot of thoughtprovoking information but as always if I think too much I get confused. There is no single (or should that read simple) answer to the question Iamgoing to pose since everyone tempers/heat treats differently but heregoes. I built a Cattanach style oven and how long should one heat treat theirstrips? There has been some variance in the times mentioned in previous posts.Someone said they were using their kitchen oven and "baking" for 20minutes,the books seem to say around 7.5 minutes. Maybe the answer can't beexpressed in minutes due to the variance in methods but is there a test oran observation us first timers can use to determine when done? Thanks again for your helpTim from brookie@frii.com Mon Mar 12 07:28:25 2001 f2CDSOe27213 Subject: Back on Rodmakers to Lurk and Learn Hello again to the canemakers *g*, I took a break from the List when all that virus attachment activity was occurring some months ago. Some of us that have cane rods (and other valued flyfishing toys) have to be very prudent in our 'other' spending just because of our love and participating fully in flyfishing. For me ? That means no high-end PC. Every possibility that something may happen to Betsy here is a worry. I'm looking forward to the banter on the List, looking much more towards the pre-runoff in Colorado. There is a magic 3-4 weeks when the ice melts from the streams and banks, just before the screaming melt down from the high mountains. A time when the bows, browns and brookies are raveneous. Our weather -has- been warm, the streams and cricks ARE melting, and I shall be out this week. Really looking forward to the higher altitude areas melting ... Have a fellow Rodmaker coming through from East Coast, through northern Colorado on his way to the west coast. If the weather will cooperate, we'll get out this coming weekend. from Colorado then, good to be back...Sue from dlrivers@metrocast.net Mon Mar 12 07:48:24 2001 f2CDmNe27647 Subject: wooden planing forms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0AAD1.6A43F820 I'm about to attempt my first rod and will build my own form. Is there =any reason a router can't be use to cut the groove? Also does anyone =out there hand bind their glued up strips? Since I plan on making only =a few rods for myself and as gifts to friends (I hope ) I don't know if =a binder is a convenience or a requirement. Thanks to all who respondDave ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0AAD1.6A43F820 I'm about to attempt my first rod= Since I plan on making only a few rods for myself and as gifts to = to all who respondDave ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0AAD1.6A43F820-- from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Mon Mar 12 07:59:51 2001 f2CDxoe28067 Subject: Re: wooden planing forms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C0AAD2.FA85CA20 Hi Dave, I made my rough planing forms out of oak boards that I ran through myroutertable with a 60 degree bit. I made several depths for tips, butts anddifferent rod sizes. It only took a few minutes on each one and I haven'thad a problem. Just use a hard wood like oak or maple. I've rough planed anumber of rods already on mine without a problem. hope this helps. John K.-----Original Message-----From: DlRivers Date: Monday, March 12, 2001 8:49 AMSubject: wooden planing forms I'm about to attempt my first rod and will build my own form. Is thereany reason a router can't be use to cut the groove? Also does anyone outthere hand bind their glued up strips? Since I plan on making only a fewrods for myself and as gifts to friends (I hope ) I don't know if a binderis a convenience or a requirement. Thanks to all who respondDave ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C0AAD2.FA85CA20 Hi Dave, I made my rough planing forms out of oak boardsthat = problem. hope this helps. John K. -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Monday, March 12, 2001 8:49 AMSubject: woodenplaning = formsI'm about to attempt my first = Dave ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C0AAD2.FA85CA20-- from rmoon@ida.net Mon Mar 12 08:42:48 2001 f2CEgle29920 Subject: Re: wooden planing forms --------------01897BFB30D598B35BD6038E DaveI hope that you don't take this amiss. My personal feelingis that if you intend to build bamboo rods, you should stickto good equipment and proved methods. 1. You can not getgood accuracy on a wooden planing form. Take it from me, Ibuilt my first on wood and it took something like threetimes as long to do it (time spent in laboriously mikingevery pass of the plane.) If cost is a factor, make yourown, there are several good papers written on how to do it.2. I will to my dying day maintain that no one can handwrap a bamboo rod and attain the pressure needed to get agood blue bond. Since the wrapping thread is applied bypassing under the driving cord which exerts tremendouspressure the section is assured of a good bond. If you tryto wrap by hand, the binding cord will break at only a tinyfraction of the force achieved in a wrapping implement.Again if cost is a factor build you own. Mine cost about$10 and three or four hours to build and I have used it fornearly thirty years. Finally study (don't just read) one ofthe several fine books on making a rod. Certainly Garrisonand Cattanach, but there is much to be gained in Maurer'sbook and Ray Goulds and The Lovely Cane. Finally if youcan find someone experienced talk with him. I think that you will be very disappointed if you approachrod building in the manner you describe. Do it the best youcan with the best you find of materials and equipment. Don'skimp. Then you will be truly satisfied and proud of yourresults. Ralph --------------01897BFB30D598B35BD6038E Dave that if you intend to build bamboo rods, you should stick to good equipment wooden something like three times as long to do it (time spent in laboriously will to my dying day maintain that no one can hand wrap a bamboo rod and wrappingthread is applied by passing under the driving cord which exerts tremendous Garrisonand Cattanach, but there is much to be gained in Maurer's book and Ray can find someone experienced talk with him.I think that you will be very disappointed if you approach rod building be truly satisfied and proud of your results.Ralph --------------01897BFB30D598B35BD6038E-- from cathcreek@hotmail.com Mon Mar 12 08:47:43 2001 f2CElge00232 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:47:39 -0800 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:47:39 GMT Subject: Re: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners FILETIME=[62AB77F0:01C0AB03] Not sure if I am beating a dead horse. I do what Ralph Moon suggested once on the list (thanks Ralph). I turn my cane every 2 minutes and I wait until the smell is right. Hard to describe what that right smell is, but it is definitely there. I believe the oven is doing both moisture removal and tempering and I set my oven at about 350 or 370. That usually meansbetween 10 and 12 minutes (depends on if I am doing two sections at once or only one). I do get more heat applied to the middle and have not noticed a difference or a problem related to this. I also flame my cane prior to splitting and I think this has a big impact on the action (new thread?) Most of my heat/tempering/flaming techniques come from Waynes firstbook (Thanks Wayne). Not sure if I have helped or not. Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com From: "Richard R. Dutcher" Subject: Re: Tempering - Practical Information for beginnersDate: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:24:56 -0800 That is a great question, Tim. I am still a bit confused as to what weare trying to accomplish here. 1. Are we trying to reduce the moisturecontent only, in the cane? Which in my mind would mean using an oven withlower temperatures with exhausted convection air and longer time so as todehydrate the cane.. 2. Are we trying to temper the cane i. e., change thephysical properties by using high temperature? I can see that lowering the moisture content of the cane is a definiteplus in my way of thinking. And, I tend to go along with tempering the cane.The question I have is, are we not talking about two completely separateissues here? It seems to me by going straight to high temperature wouldcause the moisture to boil out there by causing cellular damage. I do notbelieve this would cause a noticeable weakness as much as it would causeaninconsistency in the overall strength of the cane. The moisture trying toescape the cane at high temperature will take the path of least resistancethere by further weakening the natural weak spots in the cane. However, heattreating a dehydrated cane would be more likely to produce an improved andconsistent rod and the results should be repeatable. Regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message -----From: Tim Wilhelm Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:43 AMSubject: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Some great threads on ovens and tempering lately. A lot of thoughtprovoking information but as always if I think too much I get confused. There is no single (or should that read simple) answer to the question Iamgoing to pose since everyone tempers/heat treats differently but heregoes. I built a Cattanach style oven and how long should one heat treat theirstrips? There has been some variance in the times mentioned in previous posts.Someone said they were using their kitchen oven and "baking" for 20minutes,the books seem to say around 7.5 minutes. Maybe the answer can't beexpressed in minutes due to the variance in methods but is there a test oran observation us first timers can use to determine when done? Thanks again for your helpTim _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Mon Mar 12 09:04:17 2001 f2CF4Ge01147 Subject: Re: wooden planing forms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01C0AADB.F8DD8240 Oops- I assumed he was talking about ROUGH forms!!!! I would only do therough stuff on wood- and then go to the steel forms for tapering!!!!!!!!!!! John K.-----Original Message-----From: Ralph W Moon Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:44 AMSubject: Re: wooden planing forms DaveI hope that you don't take this amiss. My personal feeling is that ifyou intend to build bamboo rods, you should stick to good equipment andproved methods. 1. You can not get good accuracy on a wooden planingform.Take it from me, I built my first on wood and it took something like threetimes as long to do it (time spent in laboriously miking every pass of theplane.) If cost is a factor, make your own, there are several good paperswritten on how to do it. 2. I will to my dying day maintain that no onecan hand wrap a bamboo rod and attain the pressure needed to get a goodbluebond. Since the wrapping thread is applied by passing under the drivingcord which exerts tremendous pressure the section is assured of a goodbond.If you try to wrap by hand, the binding cord will break at only a tinyfraction of the force achieved in a wrapping implement. Again if cost is afactor build you own. Mine cost about $10 and three or four hours to buildand I have used it for nearly thirty years. Finally study (don't just read)one of the several fine books on making a rod. Certainly Garrison andCattanach, but there is much to be gained in Maurer's book and Ray Gouldsand The Lovely Cane. Finally if you can find someone experienced talkwith him. I think that you will be very disappointed if you approach rod buildingin the manner you describe. Do it the best you can with the best you findof materials and equipment. Don' skimp. Then you will be truly satisfiedand proud of your results. Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01C0AADB.F8DD8240 Oops- I assumed he was talkingabout = John K. -----Original = dlrivers@metrocast.net = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Monday, March 12, 2001 9:44 AMSubject: Re: wooden = is that if you intend to build bamboo rods, you should stick to good = and it took something like three times as long to do it (time spent = your own, there are several good papers written on how to do = wrapping thread is applied by passing under the driving cord which = to wrap by hand, the binding cord will break at only a tiny fraction = Garrison and Cattanach, but there is much to be gained in Maurer's = I think that you will be very disappointed if you approach rod = Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01C0AADB.F8DD8240-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 12 09:22:54 2001 f2CFMre02243 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:22:41 -0800 Subject: Re: RODMAKERS digest 290 Mike,Here are a few:Morten Lovstad Kurt Loup Mark Petrie Troy Miller Mark Cole is also in Houston, but I don't have Mark's email address handy. Hope this helps,Harry Boyd Mike and Melissa Brown wrote: HI All: Do any of you know of any bamboo rodmakers in Houston TX. I aminterested in spending some time with someone experienced in the art inmyarea.Mike----- Original Message -----From: ;;"and Collecting" ;"and Collecting" Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 3:00 PMSubject: RODMAKERS digest 290 RODMAKERS Digest 290 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Coloring bamboo rod sections 2) RE: Dickerson info 3) Heddon Black Beauty 4) Payne Parabolics 5) RE: Tempering: was HT Ovens 6) Southfield show 7) ferrule problems 8) RE: Another Pantone Trick 9) RE: Dickerson info 10) Gathering Info for Alex 11) binder question/taper request 12) Re: Tempering 13) Re: Pack rods 14) Re: Silk Line maintenance 15) Re: Tempering 16) RE: Tempering 17) Re: Tempering 18) Re: Gathering Info for Alex 19) Sv: Tempering --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from rmoon@ida.net Mon Mar 12 09:25:29 2001 f2CFPSe02457 0000 Subject: Re: wooden planing forms --------------086A52E85C06F48DA7AC1FC9 John Kenealy wrote: Oops- I assumed he was talking about ROUGH forms!!!! Iwould only do the rough stuff on wood- and then go to thesteel forms for tapering!!!!!!!!!!! John K. John, I guess I made an assumption as well. If so Iapologize. Actually I do use a number of wooden formsmyself, but only to hold the strip after it is shaped. Inever do any planing on the wooden forms. I made myself ashort adjustable metal roughing form that does a better job Ralph --------------086A52E85C06F48DA7AC1FC9 John Kenealy wrote:Oops- rough stuff on wood- and then go to the steel forms for K. Actually I do use a number of wooden forms myself, but only to hold the I made myself a short adjustable metal roughing form that does a betterjob for me.Ralph --------------086A52E85C06F48DA7AC1FC9-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 12 09:44:49 2001 f2CFime03334 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:44:43 -0800 Subject: Re: wooden planing forms --------------5DFAEC46B0CF58644A4B353A Dave,I seriously doubt that you will ever get a router set upaccurately enough to cut a groove which tapers .001" perinch. That seems to be the most common rate of depthincrease on forms today. Using the instructions on TomPenrose's page, or in one of the many good rod making books,you can taper the groove with a file or a lathe tool. Inwooden forms, you will probably get it right on your secondor third try. I did!I only use wooden final planing forms for especiallysmall tip sections these days. But they do work okay. AsRalph has mentioned, they are definitely slower. I thinkthe wood has enough "give" in it that it spreads a littleand makes it hard to remove the last few thousandths of aninch. should do a really nice job. Be sure you have surfaces veryflat before cutting the groove with the router and you'll beokay. I made my first binder before building my first rod.But it took me several rods worth of effort to get it tunedcorrectly. In the interim, I bound several bundles ofstrips by hand. The biggest problem for me was that myhands constantly cramped up on me while trying to turn thestrips under pressure. I built a new binder over theweekend. Probably took me less than 8 hours total. AndI've got less than $10 invested in it. A decent bindermakes things much, much simpler. It's possible, in myopinion, to get decent results binding by hand. But I don'twant to do it again. Harry DlRivers wrote: I'm about to attempt my first rod and will build my ownform. Is there any reason a router can't be use to cutthe groove? Also does anyone out there hand bind theirglued up strips? Since I plan on making only a few rods if a binder is a convenience or a requirement. Thanks toall who respondDave --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------5DFAEC46B0CF58644A4B353A Dave, That seems to be the most common rate of depth increase on forms Using the instructions on Tom Penrose's page, or in one of the many good In wooden forms, you will probably get it right on your second or third "give" in it that it spreads a little and makes it hard to remove the lastfew thousandths of an inch. the very flat before cutting the groove with the router and you'll be okay. problem for me was that my hands constantly cramped up on me while trying DlRivers wrote: about only a few rods for myself and as gifts to friends (I hope ) I don't know respondDave --Harry Boyd"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." --------------5DFAEC46B0CF58644A4B353A-- from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Mon Mar 12 09:58:02 2001 f2CFw2e03940 0500 Subject: Say it isn't SO! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0AAE3.6BCBF280 Dear Rick, "Discussing this with my wife again, she assures me that lignin isconsidered a 'plastic'. How dare you use that seven-letter word on this list, are you suggestingthat there is plastic in cane? If this is the case be prepared to bediscredited, this secrete can never be let out given what is said about theround plastic boys.Written with tongue in cheek. Take care Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRodmaker ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0AAE3.6BCBF280 Normal0DocumentEmail =0=0 Dear Rick, "Discussing this with my wife again, sheassures me that lignin is considered a 'plastic'. How dare you use that seven-letter word on =thislist, are you suggesting that there is plastic in cane? If this is the =case beprepared to be discredited, this secrete can never be let out given what =issaid about the round plastic boys. Written with tongue in cheek. Take care =Tim. Signature" Upstream =Always, Tim Doughty Rodmaker ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0AAE3.6BCBF280-- from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Mar 12 10:00:55 2001 f2CG0se04229 HAA10215 (5.5.2650.21) "'rmoon@ida.net'" Subject: RE: wooden planing forms Colorado bootstrap has a steel rough planing form for $65. No interest blabla bla...... Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:18 AM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: wooden planing forms John Kenealy wrote: Oops- I assumed he was talking about ROUGH forms!!!! I would only dothe rough stuff on wood- and then go to the steel forms for tapering!!!!!!!!!!!John K. John, I guess I made an assumption as well. If so I apologize. Actually I douse a number of wooden forms myself, but only to hold the strip after it isshaped. I never do any planing on the wooden forms. I made myself a shortadjustable metal roughing form that does a better job for me. Ralph from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon Mar 12 10:53:26 2001 f2CGrPe06630 with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:53:04 -0800 Subject: RE: Silk Line maintenance f2CGrPe06631 Hi Olaf, Chris B. and Reed, Thanks very much for the information. My initial post had to do with thebreak in period for each of the silk fly lines you have available. I didn't intendto imply that silk wasn't worth the trouble as I've cast a silk line and amalready sold on it's virtues. from reading your site it sounded like theThebault's break in period was much more significant then the Phoenix. Iunderstood it to be a treatment every hour for the first 20 to 30 hours offishing. I misunderstood and I'm glad I asked the question now. Olaf, pleasepost your impressions of the Thebault line as you use them this year. Iappreciate your feedback. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu"Olaf Borge" 03/11/01 02:41PM >>>Chris,The initial Thebault break-in period, that is the treating of the line withthe floatant provided, so it will be soft and not crack the finish, takes3 to 5, 10 minute sessions treating the line with the floatant. I have donethis several times and it is not burdensome. I have fished a Thebault line briefly at the end of last season. I was abroken- in demo sample provided by Mr. Thebault for me to test. I did nothave to treat it every hour and I only applied the dressing once. It floatedfine for the several, two to three hour, sessions I fished it last fall. Phoenix lines require no break-in because the finish is fairly pliable whenit is new. It does soften up a little after it has been fished for severalhours. The phoenix lines should have Mucilin applied before each fishing outing.It will not harm the line not to treat it but it will surly float better andlonger. I have not treated my Phoenix line each time I fished and havelittle problem with floatation. However I am not one who fishes eight hoursstraight! I will concentrate on fishing Thebault lines this season and will keep youinformed on the maintenance. I have a financial interest in this, I hope no one is offended. Olaf BorgeSilk fly lines bought and soldE6907 Monument Rock RoadFranklin Township Vernon County WisconsinURL: www.silkflylines.com Mail: P.O. Box 361 Viroqua, Wisconsin 54665Email: oborge@mwt.net Phone: 608-675-3509 Fax: 608-675-3681 -----Original Message----- McDowell Subject: Silk Line maintenance Reed, Very nice web site your son developed. For me, subtle elegance wins everytime when compared against whistles and bells. I was reading the maintenance portion of the Phoenix and the Thebault lines. The Thebault line seems to need a fairly time consuming break in period,greasing the line about every hour for the first 20-30 hours of fishing andneeding to be dry before applying dressing. Then every 3-4 hrs. of fishingthereafter another treatment. The Phoenix line recommends the red Mucilin once a day without a break inperiod. Does anyone know if this is just a difference in the manufacturing processand/or Phoenix lines are pre-treated prior to packaging? Thanks. Chris from canerod@mwt.net Mon Mar 12 12:19:10 2001 f2CIJ5e09901 Subject: light tapers I'm looking for some short rod tapers I can't find and was wondering ifanyone would care to post them and any opinions on any or all of them.I've never even heard the Orvis taper mentioned in passing, let alonecritiquing a rod that has actually been cast. By the way there is aBarnes book on e-bay now, (no interest, etc.).The rods are: Payne 95 &96, and Orvis 5'9" Ultra Light. Thank you all for many enjoyable hoursreading and learning, knowledge unavailable anywhere else. This list isgreat! tia. Phil Rundhaugen (see you in Grayrock) from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Mar 12 13:42:29 2001 f2CJgSe13276 Subject: Re: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Hi Tim and all,I'd hate to admit how many strips I've ruined by experomenting and overcooking the living daylights out of them. And once they're spoiled there'sno going back. I've settled on 11 minutes at 350 degrees turning the stripsoften as does Ralph Moon.Ray Gould----- Original Message ----- Subject: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Some great threads on ovens and tempering lately. A lot of thoughtprovoking information but as always if I think too much I get confused. There is no single (or should that read simple) answer to the question Iamgoing to pose since everyone tempers/heat treats differently but heregoes. I built a Cattanach style oven and how long should one heat treat theirstrips? There has been some variance in the times mentioned in previous posts.Someone said they were using their kitchen oven and "baking" for 20minutes,the books seem to say around 7.5 minutes. Maybe the answer can't beexpressed in minutes due to the variance in methods but is there a test oran observation us first timers can use to determine when done? Thanks again for your helpTim from ddeloach@pcisys.net Mon Mar 12 14:29:45 2001 f2CKTie15725 env- from (ddeloach@pcisys.net) Subject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six or seven coats of tung oil. Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and still casts the same. Lots ofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many days of fishing through therain. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. This first rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked and turned tan-ish. Kinda lookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rod is not "fast" but as I saidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years of hard use. Still can lay 50' ona beaver pond without a sound. from setissma@email.msn.com Mon Mar 12 15:22:41 2001 f2CLMee18582 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:22:36 -0800 Subject: Re: binder question/taper request FILETIME=[8FBA0680:01C0AB3A] You can make the cradles with just a hacksaw and a file. Purchase a foot of3" x 3" thin-walled aluminum stock. It is square in cross section, andhollow in the middle. You should be able to find it at any metal supplier.Cut a one inch piece, then cut it down the middle. That will give you two smooth rough edges with sandpaper. The binder will perform better if both cradles are as identical as possible.I learned this the hard way. As for the crank pulley, that probably requires a power tool. You can cut itwith a router, bandsaw, or a hole cutting bit in a drill press. For yourother pulleys, use the ball bearing wheels sold for the bottom of slidingglass patio doors. Available at any hardware store. and metal sleeves over all bolts to maintain an exact distance from thebinder plate. Also, you may need to spend quite a bit of time tuning yourbinder to find the optimal setup. Good luck! Jeff Schaeffer ----- Original Message ----- Subject: binder question/taper request Hello again! I have decided to build a binder! Does anyone have asuggestion on what I should use for the blank cradlesand where I can obtain the right sized wheel for themain crank. I need to know where to buy these things,I do not have the tools necessary to turn my own.Also, a while ago on ebay I saw a Lee Wulf rod basedon the one he used in his bush plane days that was a 6footer he used for salmon fishing. Does anyone havethe taper! Just an interest of mine. Well, progresscontinues on my rod making work area! Thanks for allthe help! Especially to Mac and Winston! Mike =====http://miangler.homestead.com/home.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Mar 12 15:42:02 2001 f2CLg1e19460 Subject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me say that data presented at ourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish is far superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moisture resistance. So I've been using itall along. I can now cite an example of its effectiveness. A friend who hadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in the wilderness of B.C. He had thefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. When he reached camp the firstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out of the case he was carrying itin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 days later floating in a streamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had been immersed for 3days. Heasked me to have a look at it later and I could see no problem with the canebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So I cleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a few years), dipped the rod anothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay to this day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- - Subject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six or seven coats of tung oil. Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and still casts the same. Lots ofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many days of fishing through therain. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in the bamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing and waterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. This first rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked and turned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rod is not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years of hard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Mar 12 15:50:41 2001 f2CLoZe19952 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:49:56 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: binder question/taper request Mike, andthey worked fine,dirt cheap,and easy to adjust too. I still use it from time totime!There are pictures, and instructions on www.shawnsbamboopage.eboard.comShawn Mike Janik wrote: Hello again! I have decided to build a binder! Does anyone have asuggestion on what I should use for the blank cradlesand where I can obtain the right sized wheel for themain crank. I need to know where to buy these things,I do not have the tools necessary to turn my own.Also, a while ago on ebay I saw a Lee Wulf rod basedon the one he used in his bush plane days that was a 6footer he used for salmon fishing. Does anyone havethe taper! Just an interest of mine. Well, progresscontinues on my rod making work area! Thanks for allthe help! Especially to Mac and Winston! Mike =====http://miangler.homestead.com/home.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from stpete@netten.net Mon Mar 12 15:52:02 2001Received: from f2CLq1e20100 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:55:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Richard, I tend to agree completely that both moisture removal and tempering areimportant. More than that, the best results most likely occur when theformerprecedes the latter in a controlled process. That's why I heat treat usingthePowell method in my heat gun oven (or as close as I can given the limitationsofmy oven) with the exception that I cut the 375 temperature time to 7 to 10minutes. I do this because I think Mr. Powell may have heat treated entireculms. I heat treat the split strips after flaming, splitting, and roughing thestrips. I have lost more than one batch to overcooking, however. You mustbecareful with smaller rod sections. Here is a post from the archives (Coffey, P., 1998) which explains it all. Rick C. Tue Jan 13 10:10:48 1998From:"Coffey, Patrick W"Subject:heat treating I just finished reading the dissertation on heat treating athttp://home.att.net/~ldcross3/temper.htmand it made me think that the heat treating formula that Walton Powellgave me is probably right on; 250 degrees for 1 1/2-2 hours300 degrees for 1 hour375-400 degrees for 30 minutes his feelings are that the first one to two hours drives out most of themoisture without turning the moisture to steam and rupturing the cellwalls and the next temperature setting and time removes the rest of thewater and starts the chemical changes and the last temperature and timesetting completes the moisture removal, chemical change and color andslightly carbonized the cane.the more I read and try seems to point that Mr. Powell was right intelling me that his heat treating results in a rod that doesn't take aset and ends up with the color of honey and is the right stiffness forthe rods that he builds. I have never had the opportunity to try or fishwith one of Walton Powells rods in that he retired from the businessquite a while ago and I just haven't known anybody who owned one. Readthe dissertation at that web page and see what you think-- not that I'mtrying to open the heat treating can of worms again--but maybe we canlearn something from somebody new and somebody who was in thebusiness Patrick "Richard R. Dutcher" wrote: That is a great question, Tim. I am still a bit confused as to what weare trying to accomplish here. 1. Are we trying to reduce the moisturecontent only, in the cane? Which in my mind would mean using an oven withlower temperatures with exhausted convection air and longer time so as todehydrate the cane.. 2. Are we trying to temper the cane i. e., change thephysical properties by using high temperature? I can see that lowering the moisture content of the cane is a definiteplus in my way of thinking. And, I tend to go along with tempering the cane.The question I have is, are we not talking about two completely separateissues here? It seems to me by going straight to high temperature wouldcause the moisture to boil out there by causing cellular damage. I do notbelieve this would cause a noticeable weakness as much as it would causeaninconsistency in the overall strength of the cane. The moisture trying toescape the cane at high temperature will take the path of least resistancethere by further weakening the natural weak spots in the cane. However,heattreating a dehydrated cane would be more likely to produce an improvedandconsistent rod and the results should be repeatable. Regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message -----From: Tim Wilhelm Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:43 AMSubject: Tempering - Practical Information for beginners Some great threads on ovens and tempering lately. A lot of thoughtprovoking information but as always if I think too much I get confused. There is no single (or should that read simple) answer to the question Iamgoing to pose since everyone tempers/heat treats differently but heregoes. I built a Cattanach style oven and how long should one heat treat theirstrips? There has been some variance in the times mentioned in previous posts.Someone said they were using their kitchen oven and "baking" for 20minutes,the books seem to say around 7.5 minutes. Maybe the answer can't beexpressed in minutes due to the variance in methods but is there a testoran observation us first timers can use to determine when done? Thanks again for your helpTim from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Mar 12 16:11:47 2001 f2CMBje20978 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:11:06 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Rattan Grips --------------326B500258228F2AFE6C74D1 Tony or anyone else,do you soak the rattan before winding or what? Is therattan wound over itself or just butted up turn after turn?? I would love tohear adetailed procedure for this.Got some rattan and I'm thinking I might do my Dickerson 6611 gripmaybe????Shawn Tony Miller wrote: Thanks for the all the kind words guys.I will try to answer all thequestions.Firstthe rattan is a 2.25mm chair cane.Second I wrapped it over cork.I triedbalsa andit works,but it is much harder to work with.I hold the ends down withmasking tapeand sewing pins.I think the trick is to glue the end wait till its dry then gluethe rest.I was going for a sort of aged look so I used a alcohollamp to molttherattan. I have seen the kane klassicrattan grip but wanted to do somethingsimilarbut notexactly the same. I think he burns the rattan before he wraps it. Idid itafter. Giving it a similar look but a little different. I was trying to matchthemolted look on my rod.I use spar varnish on my rods, but for the rattangrip(only)Iused a spar urethane. I feel that the grip will get allot ofwear and varnishmightnot hold up over the long haul, on the grip.I did not put the red thread inbetweenbut I might try it next time. All in all it was not an easy task.I experimentedallot. I will be showing this rod at the Southfield show.I used silk wraps. Iknowit is hard to see in the pictures,but did you guys notice the English twistsnakeguides I made?TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.htmlflyfish@defnet.com --------------326B500258228F2AFE6C74D1 Tony or anyone else, do you soak the rattan before winding or what? Is the rattan wound overitself or just butted up turn after turn?? I would love to hear a detailedprocedure for this. thinking I might do my Dickerson 6611 grip maybe???? ShawnTony Miller wrote: Thanks will try to answer all the questions.Firstthe rattan is a 2.25mm chair cane.SecondI wrapped it over cork.Itried balsa and it works,but it is much harder to workwith.Ihold the ends down with masking tape and sewing pins.Ithink the trick is to glue the end wait till its dry then glue therest.Iwas going for a sort of aged look so I used a alcohollampto molt the rattan. I have seen the kane klassicrattangrip but wanted to do something similar but notexactlythe same. I think he burns the rattan before he wraps it. I did it after.Giving it a similar look but a little different. I was trying to matchthe molted look on my rod.Iuse spar varnish on my rods, but for the rattangrip(only)Iused a spar urethane. I feel that the grip will get allotofwearand varnish might not hold up over the long haul, on the grip.I did notput the red thread in between but I might try it next time. All in allit was not an easy task.I experimented allot. I will be showing this rodat the Southfield show.Iused silk wraps. I know it is hard to see in the pictures,butdid you guys notice the English twist snake guides Imade?TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.htmlflyfish@defnet.com --------------326B500258228F2AFE6C74D1-- from pumpkin10@prodigy.net Mon Mar 12 16:24:00 2001 f2CMNxe21593 f2CMNwX250170;Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:23:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Tempering RayWhat brand of polyurethane are you useing, I am using Helmsman sparvarnish, but Thinking about changing to polyurethane,Tony Larson----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me say that data presented atourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish is far superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moisture resistance. So I've been usingitall along. I can now cite an example of its effectiveness. A friend whohadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in the wilderness of B.C. He hadthefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. When he reached camp thefirstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out of the case he was carryingitin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 days later floating in astreamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had been immersed for 3days. Heasked me to have a look at it later and I could see no problem with thecanebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So I cleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a few years), dipped the rodanothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay to this day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- -From: "Don DeLoach" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:29 PMSubject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes maybewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six or seven coats of tung oil.Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and still casts the same. Lotsofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many days of fishing throughtherain. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing andwaterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. This first rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked and turned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rod is not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years of hard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Mar 12 16:32:02 2001 f2CMW1e22011 2001 14:32:03 PST Subject: Re: Tempering tony, i thot helmssman spar was polyurethane. that iswhat i use also. i see now it says urethane. still,isn't that poly? itimothy --- DARLENE URBANSKI wrote:RayWhat brand of polyurethane are you useing, I amusing Helmsman sparvarnish, but Thinking about changing topolyurethane,Tony Larson----- Original Message -----From: Ray Gould Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:41 PMSubject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me saythat data presented atourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish isfar superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moistureresistance. So I've been usingitall along. I can now cite an example of itseffectiveness. A friend whohadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in thewilderness of B.C. He hadthefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. Whenhe reached camp thefirstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out ofthe case he was carryingitin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 dayslater floating in astreamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had beenimmersed for 3days. Heasked me to have a look at it later and I couldsee no problem with thecanebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So Icleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a fewyears), dipped the rodanothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay tothis day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- -From: "Don DeLoach" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:29 PMSubject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough toprevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern aboutwaterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six orseven coats of tung oil.Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and stillcasts the same. Lots ofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many daysof fishing through therain. It would be worth knowing the extent to whichcolor change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changesrelated to flexing andwaterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. Thisfirst rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked andturned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rodis not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years ofhard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from jvswan@earthlink.net Mon Mar 12 16:46:47 2001 f2CMkke22812 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Tempering Tony, Minwax makes a Helmsman brand spar urethane that I have used to refinish acouple of rods. It is perhaps better than typical furniture gradepolyurethane because it also protects against UV damage. Not that anyonewould leave a nice bamboo rod outside in the bright sunlight for any lengthof time... It is not as clear, though. Has a bit of a tint to it whichwill show up on a blonde rod but not on rods with any kind of color. Jason Swan From: "DARLENE URBANSKI" Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:10:55 -0600 Cc: Subject: Re: Tempering RayWhat brand of polyurethane are you useing, I am using Helmsman sparvarnish, but Thinking about changing to polyurethane,Tony Larson----- Original Message -----From: Ray Gould Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:41 PMSubject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me say that data presented atourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish is far superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moisture resistance. So I've been usingitall along. I can now cite an example of its effectiveness. A friend whohadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in the wilderness of B.C. He hadthefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. When he reached camp thefirstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out of the case he was carryingitin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 days later floating in astreamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had been immersed for 3days.Heasked me to have a look at it later and I could see no problem with thecanebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So I cleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a few years), dipped the rodanothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay to this day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- -From: "Don DeLoach" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:29 PMSubject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough to prevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern about waterproof finishes maybewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six or seven coats of tung oil.Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and still casts the same. Lotsofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many days of fishing throughtherain. It would be worth knowing the extent to which color change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changes related to flexing andwaterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. This first rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked and turned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rod is not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years of hard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. from pumpkin10@prodigy.net Mon Mar 12 17:10:37 2001 f2CNAae23773 f2CNAZU127678;Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:10:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Tempering TimYour right my can says urethane also, not polyurethane i do not knowthe difference, I usedMcCloskey man o war marine spar varnish on my first10rods, Helmsman on last two, McCloskey gives a better looking finish to me,Still want to try a good polyurethane,Thanks Tony Larson----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tempering tony, i thot helmssman spar was polyurethane. that iswhat i use also. i see now it says urethane. still,isn't that poly? itimothy --- DARLENE URBANSKI wrote:RayWhat brand of polyurethane are you useing, I amusing Helmsman sparvarnish, but Thinking about changing topolyurethane,Tony Larson----- Original Message -----From: Ray Gould Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:41 PMSubject: Re: Tempering Hi to all,In regards to water resistant finishes let me saythat data presented atourworkshops indicates that Polyurethane varnish isfar superior to tung oiland many other varnishes for its moistureresistance. So I've been usingitall along. I can now cite an example of itseffectiveness. A friend whohadone of my rods went on a back pack trip in thewilderness of B.C. He hadthefly rod strapped to the outside of his pack. Whenhe reached camp thefirstday he discovered that the rod had fallen out ofthe case he was carryingitin and was thus missing. He found the rod 3 dayslater floating in astreamthey had forded on the way in. So the rod had beenimmersed for 3days. Heasked me to have a look at it later and I couldsee no problem with thecanebut it did have a discolored cork grip. So Icleaned up the cork, polishedup the varnish (it had been fished for a fewyears), dipped the rodanothercoat and returned it to him. It's still okay tothis day. And I'm stillputting my money with polyurethane varnish.Ray----- Original Message ---- -From: "Don DeLoach" Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:29 PMSubject: Re: Tempering that no varnish is really waterproof enough toprevent gradualaccommodationto ambient humidity, suggests concern aboutwaterproof finishes may bewasted effort. How about that, Tung oil fans. My first rod (early 97) was a 6'6" 3w, six orseven coats of tung oil.Ithas seen four summers of very hard use and stillcasts the same. Lots ofexposure to Rocky Mt thunderstorms and many daysof fishing through therain. It would be worth knowing the extent to whichcolor change in thebamboocorrelates with chemical/structural changesrelated to flexing andwaterabsorption. This is a very curiuous thing to me also. Thisfirst rod of mine is"blonde", though it was a little overcooked andturned tan-ish. Kindalookslike Granger browntoning. In any event, the rodis not "fast" but as Isaidit hasn't gotten any softer in four years ofhard use. Still can lay 50'ona beaver pond without a sound. ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.http://auctions.yahoo.com/ from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Mar 12 17:14:15 2001 f2CNEEe23971 Subject: Southfeild Show This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0AABB.4B7A81E0 I'd like to say thanks to all the guys from list whostopped by my booth this weekend at the show.Why didn't you guys all buy a rod? HA HA LOLI enjoyed meeting all of you.Hope to see you all soon at the next event, hopefully in Grayling. I'm =gonna have some pictures of the show on mysite in a week or so. I forgot to take a picture of everyone.I was so involved with the show. But I managed to catch a few of you =guys. Thanks to all of you who gave me a few trade secrets and rod parts = Tony Miller ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0AABB.4B7A81E0 I'd like to say thanks to all the guys = whostopped by my booth this weekend atthe = show.Why didn't you guys all buy a rod? HA = LOLI enjoyed meeting all of =you.Hope to see you all soon at the next = mysite in a week or so. I forgot to take = everyone.I was so involved with the show. But I = catch a few of you guys. Thanks to all of you who gave me a few trade = and rod parts (you know who you are). Sincerely TonyMiller ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0AABB.4B7A81E0-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 12 18:18:25 2001 f2D0IOe25263 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:18:20 -0800 Subject: Re: Rattan Grips Shawn,Here's a pretty thorough summary of the way Al Medvedmakes these grips.http://www.curro.net/srg2000/medved.html My thanks to Charlie Curro for putting this together. Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: do you soak the rattan before winding or what? Is therattan wound over itself or just butted up turn afterturn?? I would love to hear a detailed procedure for this. Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from jojo@ipa.net Mon Mar 12 18:42:48 2001 f2D0gke25823 Subject: Re: Tempering - Long Having considered what little evidence exists, and drawing upon my ownexperiences, the following occurs to me based upon my own observations. 1. Moisture removal from the bamboo, while desirable, is but a sideeffect to the heat treating process and is not the whole point. 2. We bend, press, cajole, and otherwise cause the strips to conform toour own desires of straightness and flatness. In so doing we have causedwhat essentially amount to stress risers throughout the strip. By roughplaning, tightly binding, and heat treating it seems that what we are doingis allowing the cane to stress relieve itself along the linear plane inaccordance with the bound bundle. I've noticed that if I do all that I canto get the bound bundle as straight as I can, wonder of wonders I havestraight strips ready for final planing. I get very little node reversalduring the heat treating process, and suppose this is due to the methodemployed for pressing them. 3. Given that Don Andersen's findings regarding the properties thatreally matter, i.e., the action of the finished strip, demonstrate that moreis not better, in fact less is best, it seems that there should be anoptimum time/temp that allows the strips max. moisture removal, enoughtime to stress relieve, and to somewhat shrink on the cellular level,without causing the strips to become too brittle, orto not have enough memory and elasticity. 4. Lloyd Cross' treatise on the heat treating of bamboo leaves littledoubt that higher temp/shorter time results in more moisture and volatileoil removal, andhigher carbonization. His testing did not focus on the issue of effect onthe action of the strip, as did Don Andersen's. There still remains thequestion of what, ifany, damage might have been done to the strip by the abrupt removal of themoisture at higher temps. 5. I have no idea at what temperature the lignin actually becomesplastic, but amquite sure it is above, or right around 325Ÿ. Yes, the strips will work attemperatures below this, but I bet you may have noticed that your nodeswantto pop back on you, and your dog legs want to return to their originalposition. I can readily tell by looking at the strips reaction to beingpressed whether I have sufficiently heated it. 6. It is readily noticed that raw cane planes much easier, in long smoothcurls, than does a strip at, say 375Ÿ for 14 minutes. I do believe that dueto some sort of re-polarization, the clinging of the curls to the plane isin fact static in origin. 7. I have recently played with different exposure times to bundledstrips. The highest exposure time resulted in the curls coming off in smallbroken chips, with the sound quite like that of a large zipper, while theshorter exposure strips planed nearly as well as raw cane.Interesting that the higher exposed strips, while seeming to have a muchstiffer nature, i.e. a higher tensile and compressive strength, in fact donot have thefatigue resistance of the lower exposed strips. This would seem to be inaccordance with Don's findings. There seems to be no benefit to the longerexposure times, with the possible exception of greater moisture removal,andpossibly causing a reduction in the absorbent capabilities of the strips.This, however, would seem to come at a price. I didn't conduct any sort ofscientific analysis that could be qualified but am relying solely on my ownobservation. 8. Recently I soaked some strips overnight in water prior tostraightening, as is my practice. I pressed the nodes, straightened thekinks, then decided to see what might happen upon putting them back in thewater overnight. They appeared to remain unchanged. I reheated the nodestosee if they would rebound, and sure enough they did but not to their formerstate. I was able to easily repress them back to where I had them before.They stayed in position from then on, even through the heat treatingprocess. So, my conclusion is that the whole purpose of heat treating is to allow thecane to stress relieve, or align, itself along the linear plane, and as adesired sidebenefit the removal of moisture. Perhaps some irreversible change to thecellular structure in order to reduce the percentage of adsorption is alsodesirable. It will be interesting to read the findingsof John Bokstrom, and how, or if, they correlate to those of Don Andersen.Assuming, it just seems to me that there is an optimum level oftemperature/time at which we should be looking. The chemistry is intriguing,as is the overall effect of change experienced in the heat treating, but thepart that counts, the strip's moisture content, its resistance toadsorption, its action and resistance to set, is what is paramount, Ibelieve. It just may be that there has to be some compromise of fatigueresistance in order to accommodate a lower moisture content, and a lesseradsorption rate.Your thoughts? M-D from rafick@3riversweb.net Mon Mar 12 18:45:30 2001 f2D0jTe26001 0000 Subject: e-mail Hello All Would someone please point me to Dennis Bertram's e-mail, or Dennis, if yourthere would you e-mail me. ThanksRick from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Mar 12 18:57:26 2001 f2D0vOe26373 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:30:33 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Rattan Grips Harry, Tony, and all,thanks. That clarifies things allot!Shawn Harry Boyd wrote: Shawn,Here's a pretty thorough summary of the way Al Medvedmakes these grips.http://www.curro.net/srg2000/medved.html My thanks to Charlie Curro for putting this together. Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: do you soak the rattan before winding or what? Is therattan wound over itself or just butted up turn afterturn?? I would love to hear a detailed procedure for this. Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from harms1@pa.net Mon Mar 12 19:04:25 2001 f2D14Oe26682 Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:04:12 -0500 Su