185...what would be the optimum time and temperature for heat setting =this glue? Thanks,losey Hi all, I'm looking for a little advice...I am = rod blank using URAC 185...what would be the optimum time and = heat setting this glue? Thanks,losey from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Jun 21 09:18:08 2001 f5LEI8Z19957 HAA06075; Subject: Re: Old Plane Blades I would agree it is a type of hand planning. I have no issues with that. ButI do know there are others who differentiate between handplanning andmilling. I recently read about this same issue in one of the old issues ofthe Bamboo magazine. I know some can be sensitive about the semantics sotokeep the peace I call a mill a mill. I personally cant wait to get ahandmill and start making some quads and pents. Cutting twice the amountata time is almost to good to be true. Adam----- Original Message ----- Vigil' Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades a handmill is hand planing, the difference is that the plane has twoblades and cuts both sides at one pass. Twice as therapeutic! Patrick W. Coffey from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 21 09:22:28 2001 f5LEMSZ20241 Subject: Re: Tip /Warning Hi Mark,Are you still active in RC models. I've got several but I have been inactive fora spell. My brother is an active modeler. In a couple of years when I retire, Iwill probably pick it up again...between rods. Good suggestion, I haven't been doing that with the epoxy. I'll have to testthe GolfSmith epoxy and see if it will thin with heat. No, all epoxy will not thin with heat. The (some of) the 5 minute variety will"clabber" when you heat them. When building, I saturate the firewall sectionof the model with epoxy and heat it to watery consistency. Did that with 5minute epoxy once. Big mistake. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.comLazybee45@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 6/20/01 4:36:12 PM Central Daylight Time, flyfish@defnet.com writes: I have used Devcon for stuff like this too, but my FAVORITE is SIG! They make a couple of different versions, from 5 minute to 30 minute and the mixture varies too. but each has clear instructions. Get it from Hobby Shops. SIG is a model airplane manufacturing company from Montezuma Iowaand has a first rate reputation. My ONLY interest in this is the huge amount of money I have "invested" in SIG models, plans, parts, wood, glue, etc etc etc over the years! Also, HAzel is a nice person. I spent a rainy afternoon sitting under the wing of her Clipped wing Piper Cub on a Fathers Day one year during the annual "fly in" with her and a couple of other model airplane people. But I digress! Tip here. Put the epoxy on, slip the piece on and use a heat gun to gently heat the area, allowing the epoxy to turn "watery" and flow. This will help it to flow into all the tiny crevices and voids and give you better grip. I suppose that this will work with any epoxy. This helps speed the furing as well. Use alcohol to clean up any excess drips. mark from jerryy@webtv.net Thu Jun 21 09:46:06 2001 f5LEk5Z21185 (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id HAA28798; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:46:00 - ETAsAhQpKCGY6/KvBjaghe6O8OgMQV0dSQIUShXfsO0nbVn9AmOHhOFLORyQuMM= Subject: Re: Tip /Warning -0400 I have been using the slow cure Sig epoxy on my ferrules for yearswithout a failure. This is the 2:1 mix. Set them in my lathe with asmall chip of wood and press on with the tailstock and leave itovernight. Regards, Jerry Young from dryfly@erols.com Thu Jun 21 09:46:48 2001 f5LEkmZ21290 ([208.58.202.30] helo=erols.com) Subject: Re: heat setting URAC I put the glued blank into my heat gun oven for an hour at 175 degreesand then put it in my drying cabinet overnight. Even after heating theblank in the oven I always wait 24 hours before I remove the string andstart sanding. Bob Douglas Losey wrote: Hi all, I'm looking for a little advice...I am gluing up a rod blankusing URAC 185...what would be the optimum time and temperature forheat setting this glue?Thanks,losey from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 21 09:47:33 2001 f5LElXZ21461 Subject: Fwd: undersized ferrules k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:I posted this a year or two ago but for the new list members: If you find you have over sanded and have an undersized male ferrule, youmight try this. Go to an aquarium store and purchase a small bag ofreptile/amphibian sand. It's the very fine sand. Now you need a steel rodjust smaller in diameter than the inside of the male ferrule. Make sure bothends of the steel rod are square and flat on the end. You only need a pieceabout 2 or 3 inches long. Now fill the ferrule about 2/3 with the fine sand;enough to fill the section that will fit inside the female. Now place the closedend of the ferrule on a solid surface. An oak block should work well. Placethe rod into the ferrule and seat it on the sand. Now tap the rod with a smallhammer. Gently, a lot of small "pecks" is better than one big "whack". Thesand spreads the force of the hammer and causes it to swell. Hit it to hardand you can deform the ferrule but if you are gentle, you can bring it to justthe right diameter. Regards, Onis k5vkq@ix.netcom.com from sniderja@email.uc.edu Thu Jun 21 10:07:58 2001 f5LF7wZ22507 Subject: Re: use of Devcon 5 minute epoxy, etc. Several of you have recently discussed the use of Devcon epoxy for gluingferrules. I believe that Chris Bogart discussed/recommended using Devcon 5minute epoxy a few years ago(a search through the archives supports this).Perhaps he could enlighten us as to his success/failure with the latterover this period of time. I have a dozen or so early rods ferruled with thelatter and they have held up fine for the past 4-5 years or so. These rodsare fished a good 250 days a year (if not more), although I recentlychanged to Pliobond. Chris, are you out there?Jerry Snider At 09:54 PM 06/20/2001 -0400, Bob Williams wrote:I agree Accraglas (available from Brownells) is the way to go, I've used itever since John Zimny recommened it at the Carlisle gathering a few yearsback, never a problem. Bob----- Original Message -----From: "channer" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 8:02 PMSubject: Re: Tip/Warning Guys;If you are going to use an epoxy glue for ferrules, don't use anythingyou can buy at the hardware store , specially if it says Devcon anywhereon the package, you'll be sorry someday. Accraglas Gel(green box) willbond them as close to permanently as 2 different materials can get. Iwould imagine that the golf shaft formula's will work well,too. Everyferrule I ever glued with a Devcon product failed. We are dealing with 2different materials with different rates of expansion and contraction,so we need an adhesive with a bit of flexibility, otherwise, when themetal moves, the bond is broken.John from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Thu Jun 21 10:14:36 2001 f5LFEZZ22926 pri.pacificare.com 2001 15:16:37 UT (Tumbleweed ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:14:29 -0700 Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades Actually it's not. The way the cutter inserts are configured, the cuttingaction is more like scraping than cutting. One of the reasons chips at thenodes aren't a problem. Also, the effort to push the planing unit through acut is greater than taking a cut with a hand plane.Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 6:04 AM Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades a handmill is hand planing, the difference is that the plane has twoblades and cuts both sides at one pass. Twice as therapeutic! Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Thu Jun 21 10:23:42 2001 f5LFNfZ23484 pri.pacificare.com 2001 15:25:44 UT (Tumbleweed ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:23:35 -0700 Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades I can see I wasn't too clear in my reply. I agree it is hand planing, but Idon't get the "therapeutic" satisfaction out of Morgan Handmilling than I doregular hand planing.Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:14 AM Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades Actually it's not. The way the cutter inserts are configured, the cuttingaction is more like scraping than cutting. One of the reasons chips at thenodes aren't a problem. Also, the effort to push the planing unit throughacut is greater than taking a cut with a hand plane.Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 6:04 AM Vigil'Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades a handmill is hand planing, the difference is that the plane has twoblades and cuts both sides at one pass. Twice as therapeutic! Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from dryfly@erols.com Thu Jun 21 10:24:36 2001 f5LFOZZ23607 ([208.58.202.30] helo=erols.com) Subject: Re: use of Devcon 5 minute epoxy, etc. Jerry you're my new hero, 250 days fishing a year! Jealous Bob ;-) Jerry Snider wrote: Several of you have recently discussed the use of Devcon epoxy for gluingferrules. I believe that Chris Bogart discussed/recommended using Devcon5minute epoxy a few years ago(a search through the archives supportsthis).Perhaps he could enlighten us as to his success/failure with the latterover this period of time. I have a dozen or so early rods ferruled with thelatter and they have held up fine for the past 4-5 years or so. These rodsare fished a good 250 days a year (if not more), although I recentlychanged to Pliobond. Chris, are you out there?Jerry Snider At 09:54 PM 06/20/2001 -0400, Bob Williams wrote:I agree Accraglas (available from Brownells) is the way to go, I've used itever since John Zimny recommened it at the Carlisle gathering a fewyearsback, never a problem. Bob----- Original Message -----From: "channer" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 8:02 PMSubject: Re: Tip/Warning Guys;If you are going to use an epoxy glue for ferrules, don't use anythingyou can buy at the hardware store , specially if it says Devconanywhereon the package, you'll be sorry someday. Accraglas Gel(green box) willbond them as close to permanently as 2 different materials can get. Iwould imagine that the golf shaft formula's will work well,too. Everyferrule I ever glued with a Devcon product failed. We are dealing with 2different materials with different rates of expansion and contraction,so we need an adhesive with a bit of flexibility, otherwise, when themetal moves, the bond is broken.John from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Thu Jun 21 10:38:08 2001 f5LFc7Z24215 Subject: Re: heat setting URAC Thanks Bob, Let me ask another question....do you place the glued blank in your ovenimmediately after gluing and wrapping or do you let it first cure at roomtemperature?.... losey----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: heat setting URAC I put the glued blank into my heat gun oven for an hour at 175 degreesand then put it in my drying cabinet overnight. Even after heating theblank in the oven I always wait 24 hours before I remove the string andstart sanding. Bob Douglas Losey wrote: Hi all, I'm looking for a little advice...I am gluing up a rod blankusing URAC 185...what would be the optimum time and temperature forheat setting this glue?Thanks,losey from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Jun 21 10:44:18 2001 f5LFiHZ24532 IAA25956 IAA08477 (5.5.2650.21) "'Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com'" Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades actually the cutting edge on a scraper is a micro plane blade and cutsthrough the fibers, if it's blunt then it tears through the fiber and does notleave a smooth surface. Scrapers edges are rolled with a burnished and ifyou magnify them you will see that it is a wedge, like a plane blade, that ispushed through the fibers. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:14 AM Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades Actually it's not. The way the cutter inserts are configured, the cuttingaction is more like scraping than cutting. One of the reasons chips at thenodes aren't a problem. Also, the effort to push the planing unit through acut is greater than taking a cut with a hand plane.Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 6:04 AM Vigil'Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades a handmill is hand planing, the difference is that the plane has twoblades and cuts both sides at one pass. Twice as therapeutic! Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Thu Jun 21 10:56:51 2001 f5LFuoZ25335 pri.pacificare.com 2001 15:58:52 UT (Tumbleweed ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:56:43 -0700 Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades Which brings a question to my mind.....I wonder what would happen if I tried burnishing the edges of the cutterinserts?Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:44 AM Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades actually the cutting edge on a scraper is a micro plane blade and cutsthrough the fibers, if it's blunt then it tears through the fiber and doesnot leave a smooth surface. Scrapers edges are rolled with a burnished andif you magnify them you will see that it is a wedge, like a plane blade,that is pushed through the fibers. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:14 AM Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades Actually it's not. The way the cutter inserts are configured, thecuttingaction is more like scraping than cutting. One of the reasons chips atthenodes aren't a problem. Also, the effort to push the planing unitthrough acut is greater than taking a cut with a hand plane.Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 6:04 AM 'AdamVigil'Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades a handmill is hand planing, the difference is that the plane has twoblades and cuts both sides at one pass. Twice as therapeutic! Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from dryfly@erols.com Thu Jun 21 11:07:24 2001 f5LG7NZ25869 ([208.58.202.30] helo=erols.com) Subject: Re: heat setting URAC Doug URAC sets up fairly quickly. After I glue a section, I wipe it down with awet sponge to remove any excess surface glue, then hang the glued sectionona hook until all sections are glued up. I quickly sponge the excess glue offthe binder before I roll the sections between two boards and straighten themas best possible, then into the oven. from putting the first glued sectionthrough the binder and the whole blank into the oven is less an hour.However, in some cases when I'm gluing up more than one rod I wait until theyare all glued and straightened before I put them in the oven. I think youhave some flexibility with the timing, the oven really just accelerates thedrying time. Its not like you have to get them in the oven a minute aftergluing. Bob Douglas Losey wrote: Thanks Bob, Let me ask another question....do you place the glued blank in your ovenimmediately after gluing and wrapping or do you let it first cure at roomtemperature?.... losey----- Original Message -----From: "Robert S Williams" Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 10:48 AMSubject: Re: heat setting URAC I put the glued blank into my heat gun oven for an hour at 175 degreesand then put it in my drying cabinet overnight. Even after heating theblank in the oven I always wait 24 hours before I remove the string andstart sanding. Bob Douglas Losey wrote: Hi all, I'm looking for a little advice...I am gluing up a rod blankusing URAC 185...what would be the optimum time and temperature forheat setting this glue?Thanks,losey from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Jun 21 11:47:06 2001 f5LGl5Z27835 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I'm totally convinced Devcon(5 min) is a good product to use for =ferrules. But this subject has sparked some interest for me because we =currently discuss glues on the list and I here alot about delamination =problems.I never could figure out why someone could use a glue with success and =while another uses it with no success.I started looking into this more and more. I called some epoxy =manufactures. I was told that epoxy resins are allbasically the same chemically. (with the exception ofheat set epoxies). I asked them about different brands and if it would =make more sense to use one brand over another. (I was talking to a =chemist, not a sales person)They said it would not make a difference for the type of application I =was using it for.(rodmaking) So I stillWondered why delamination happens. So I ran my own test. Found out that =almost any glue will fail past its shear point. But I was still confused =because it was not likely that all these people pushed their rods past =this point. So the question remained. I looked toward temperature =changes. Here again most of us are pretty conscious of this. The only =thing I could think it might be is that people were heat curing non heat =curing epoxies. Once again not likely, we are all too meticulous about = Ever had two ferrules stick so bad you couldn't pull them apart. When =you laminate the idea is to get all the air out. Otherwise you would not =have to bind. Anyone work in a metal shop? When you try to pick upa piece of thin flat metal that is laying on a another with oil in =between its hard to do. Air lock is part of the reason laminating works. =So if your ruffing yourstrips and glue joints up, your creating micro air pockets. Ruffing =materiel up should only be use for glue joints that cannot have the air =pushed out of them. My strips are planned smooth and I never ruff up =glue joints. All these joints are (i.e. ferrules ,strips) are laminate =joints. When you heat a ferrule up to loosen itup the metal expands (along with softening the glue)and you break the air lock. The glue itself is not the soul factor in =the bonding. You can be as meticulous asyou want to be in preparation ,but if you prep it wrongit won't matter. Preparation is everything ,and type of glue is a small =factor( between Epoxies) I don't mean all glues. Its a common Human =fault, If the ferrule pulls off, it must have been the glue, it could =not have been anything I did. Ha Ha Ha If ferrules are coming off on =you, better to look at these factors :Bad fit(since we can't really bind a ferrule,only the tabs) best to have =a fit that you have to apply pressure to squeeze the air out. Make sure =you have a smooth, clean surface so the glue can flow between the two =surfaces( via capillary attraction). No commercial interest in Devcon =LOL . Ever seen some one glue plastic PVC up and forget to get all the =little burrs off and they don't use the cleaner and use sand paper =instead, then forget to turn it a quarter to get rid of the air. Then =the wonder why it leaked. Just a theoryTony Miller I'm totally convinced Devcon(5 = product to use for ferrules. But this subject has sparked some interest = delamination problems.I never could figure out why someone = success.I started looking into this more and = allbasically the same chemically. (with the= ofheat set epoxies). I asked them about= brands and if it would make more sense to use one brand over another. (I = talking to a chemist, not a sales person)They said it would not make adifference = type of application I was using it for.(rodmaking) So I =stillWondered why delamination happens. = my own test. Found out that almost any glue will fail past its shear = I was still confused because it was not likely that all these people = temperature changes. Here again most of us are pretty conscious of this. = Ever had two ferrules stick so bad you= pull them apart. When you laminate the idea is to get all the air out. = you would not have to bind. Anyone work in a metal shop? When you try to = up = a another with oil in between its hard to do. Air lock is part of the = laminating works. So if your ruffing yourstrips and glue joints up, your creating= pockets. Ruffing materiel up should only be use for glue joints that = up glue joints. All these joints are (i.e. ferrules ,strips) are = joints. When you heat a ferrule up to loosen itup the metal expands (along with = glue)and you break the air lock. The glue = the soul factor in the bonding. You can be as meticulous asyou want to be in preparation ,but if = wrongit won't matter. Preparation is = Its a common Human fault, If the ferrule pulls off, it must have been = Bad fit(since we can't really bind a = the tabs) best to have a fit that you have to apply pressure to squeeze = out. Make sure you have a smooth, clean surface so the glue can flow = two surfaces( via capillary attraction). No commercial interest in = little burrs off and they don't use the cleaner and use sand paper = forget to turn it a quarter to get rid of the air. Then the wonder why = leaked. Just a theoryTony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com Thu Jun 21 11:57:39 2001 f5LGvcZ28414 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:57:41 -0400 2001 -0400 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:55:04 -0400 Subject: Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond adhesives for ferrules Any opinions on Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond? The place that has Anchor Bondhassomething else I need and I would rather not pay shipping to 2 places ifAnchor Bond is adequate. Thx..Andy from Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com Thu Jun 21 12:05:08 2001 f5LH57Z28852 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:05:14 -0400 2001 -0400 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:02:45 -0400 Subject: RE: Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond adhesives for ferrules Also, if I do still end up going with the Acraglas, do you guys recommendadding atomized metal to the Acraglas? Apparently you can add differentmaterials. According to the Brownells site: Atomized (finely powdered) metals can be added to ACRAGLAS GEL toincreaseboth tensile and compression strength along with increased impactresistance. -----Original Message----- Subject: Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond adhesives for ferrules Any opinions on Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond? The place that has Anchor Bondhassomething else I need and I would rather not pay shipping to 2 places ifAnchor Bond is adequate. Thx..Andy from Grayson.Davis@valpo.edu Thu Jun 21 12:27:54 2001 f5LHRrZ29725 Subject: hints for N.C. fishing?/joke? Gentlemen, North Carolina is a mid-July destination for me. Naturally, I'd like to hear the list's wisdom on some fishing spots to try. On my honor as a former gentleman of the south (I am now standing and my right hand is placed over my heart), I promise never to denigrate the delights of Dixie. I expect to enjoy every feature of the business week I spend in Raleigh, but, I'd enjoy it more if I could conveniently fish in the evenings. Is there a nearby pond or lake that you recommend for an evening diversion of brim and bass? I'll bring my float tube. Is there a flyshop nearby that I should check out? A side trip to Boone is also likely. I'm not a fan of fast and deep water; I prefer picturesque surroundings to "trophy-sized" opportunities. Have you any favorites in that area you wish to share? Rude jibe directed at yankees follows:The yankee tourist entered a bar in NawLeans. As he wet his whistle, he complained about how sinful the city was, "Why, there's a hooker on every street corner!" A local patron rejoined, "Ther wuz two, 'till them yankees stahted comin' down and marryin' em."------ -----------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from rmoon@ida.net Thu Jun 21 13:18:41 2001 f5LIIeZ01950 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Tony Adhesives are fickle. I have had to catastrophicdelaminations with URAC, and refuse to even look at it anymore, but I see a number of first rate rod makers using it,including I think, Bob Nunley. I have seen a delaminationof resorcinol, although I personally have not had anyproblems, (One of my favorites) I have seen a adelamination with SIG Epoxy and one with Rod builders epoxy,but never any with Epon heat setting epoxy. I have not seenany failures with Titebond II. I have had ferrule failureswith every epoxy I have used, and I can assure you I payattention to the fitting and preparation of my ferrules. Ihave never had a failure with Urethane Bond. It is my ownunsubstantiated opinion that epoxies are not suitable asferrule cement since they dry to had and temperature changedifferentials between metal and wood will break the bond,despite roughing or not roughingRalph P. S. I might add that devcon has given me more troublethan any other. To each his own I guess if you are using itsuccessfully. from jvswan@earthlink.net Thu Jun 21 13:39:53 2001 f5LIdqZ03504 (63.225.233.56) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Hi Ralph, Considering your opinion means a lot to many of us, are you going to tell uswhat you use to cement the ferrules? Have you been using resorcinol for your strips? Or Epon? Jason On 6/21/01 12:08 PM, "Ralph W Moon" wrote: Tony Adhesives are fickle. I have had to catastrophicdelaminations with URAC, and refuse to even look at it anymore, but I see a number of first rate rod makers using it,including I think, Bob Nunley. I have seen a delaminationof resorcinol, although I personally have not had anyproblems, (One of my favorites) I have seen a adelamination with SIG Epoxy and one with Rod builders epoxy,but never any with Epon heat setting epoxy. I have not seenany failures with Titebond II. I have had ferrule failureswith every epoxy I have used, and I can assure you I payattention to the fitting and preparation of my ferrules. Ihave never had a failure with Urethane Bond. It is my ownunsubstantiated opinion that epoxies are not suitable asferrule cement since they dry to had and temperature changedifferentials between metal and wood will break the bond,despite roughing or not roughingRalph P. S. I might add that devcon has given me more troublethan any other. To each his own I guess if you are using itsuccessfully. from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Jun 21 13:41:35 2001 f5LIfZZ03705 Subject: Re:Use of Devcon/now Urethane This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Ralph are you referring to tight bond 2I picked a dried piece off my bottle andit is very flexible. It even stretches. I would imagine itwould serve the same purpose as epoxy with a little more flexibility. =I'll have to try it. Is that the kind you use? I use this on my Grips = Tony Miller Ralph are you referring to tight 2 andit is very flexible. It even stretches. = imagine itwould serve the same purpose asepoxy = on my bottle. It is waterproof however. TonyMiller from sniderja@email.uc.edu Thu Jun 21 14:12:10 2001 f5LJC9Z05189 Subject: Re:Use of Devcon/now Urethane Is Titebond II waterPROOF or simply water resistant?J. SniderAt 02:39 PM 06/21/2001 -0400, Tony Miller wrote: Ralph are you referring to tight bond 2I picked a dried piece off my bottle andit is very flexible. It even stretches. I would imagine itwould serve the same purpose as epoxy with a little more flexibility. I'llhave to try it. Is that the kind you use? I use this on my Grips for aflexible bond ,but is says nothing about metal on my bottle. It is waterproofhowever. Tony Miller from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Thu Jun 21 14:47:56 2001 f5LJlsZ06393 MAA10730; Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Ralph,As I am ready to glue up my first blank you're response to Tony re: URACdelaminations has not exactly inspired a great deal of confidence. The threebooks which amount to my apprenticeship in rodmaking do not mention SIG,Epon, or Titebond II, could you give me more info on these adhesives...? thanks,losey----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Tony Adhesives are fickle. I have had to catastrophicdelaminations with URAC, and refuse to even look at it anymore, but I see a number of first rate rod makers using it,including I think, Bob Nunley. I have seen a delaminationof resorcinol, although I personally have not had anyproblems, (One of my favorites) I have seen a adelamination with SIG Epoxy and one with Rod builders epoxy,but never any with Epon heat setting epoxy. I have not seenany failures with Titebond II. I have had ferrule failureswith every epoxy I have used, and I can assure you I payattention to the fitting and preparation of my ferrules. Ihave never had a failure with Urethane Bond. It is my ownunsubstantiated opinion that epoxies are not suitable asferrule cement since they dry to had and temperature changedifferentials between metal and wood will break the bond,despite roughing or not roughingRalph P. S. I might add that devcon has given me more troublethan any other. To each his own I guess if you are using itsuccessfully. from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Jun 21 14:48:47 2001 f5LJmiZ06506 Subject: Called Tightbond This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I called the tight bond company and told them some of the applications I = 1. I asked if tight bond was stronger(having higher shear strength) for = 2. I asked if tight bond was recommended for metal to bamboo. Answer No = 3. I asked if it could be used for bamboo to bamboo Answer Yes =(recommended tightbond PU) not Tightbond 2 (he said both would work but =PU stronger)also both good for cork/wood to bamboo.He also told me that tightbond has a low shock resistance. He said if =you hit it against something it comes apart easily. He did however think =tight bond was more flexible than epoxy.1-800-347-GLUE (tightbond) call for yourself,don't take my word on it.Your right Jerry it is water resistant not water proof. My mistake.Tony Miller I called the tight bondcompany = them some of the applications I was considering using their glue for. = what they said. = 2. I asked if tight bond was = 3. I asked if it could be used= to bamboo Answer Yes (recommended tightbond PU) not Tightbond 2 (he said= would work but PU stronger)also both good for cork/wood to =bamboo.He also told me that = low shock resistance. He said if you hit it against something it comes = epoxy.1-800-347-GLUE (tightbond)call = not water proof. My mistake.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Jun 21 15:03:56 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f5LK3tZ07271 (5.5.2653.19) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Called Tightbond This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. A search of the archives will show that there have been extensivediscussions of various glues in the last 2 or 3 years on the list. TitebondII, when compared spec-to-spec with other glues, does not sound great, but anumber of prolific rod makers have used it for years without anyproblems.Others feel differently. It's tough to sort it all out, and the onlythingI've been able to conclude (as an amateur trying to make sense of it all) isthat any of the common rodmaking glues can be used successfully, so longasone attends carefully to mixing instructions, temperature, surfacepreparations, curing practices, etc. Just the opinion of one listobserver.... Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Called Tightbond I called the tight bond company and told them some of the applications I wasconsidering using their glue for. this is what they said. 1. I asked if tight bond was stronger(having higher shear strength) forlaminating than epoxy? Answer No 2. I asked if tight bond was recommended for metal to bamboo. Answer No(only porous to porous joints) 3. I asked if it could be used for bamboo to bamboo Answer Yes(recommendedtightbond PU) not Tightbond 2 (he said both would work but PU stronger)alsoboth good for cork/wood to bamboo.He also told me that tightbond has a low shock resistance. He said if youhit it against something it comes apart easily. He did however think tightbond was more flexible than epoxy.1-800-347-GLUE (tightbond) call for yourself,don't take my word on it.Your right Jerry it is water resistant not water proof. My mistake.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html A search of the archives will show that there have been extensive discussionsof various glues in the last 2 or 3 years on the list. Titebond II, when compared spec-to-spec with other glues, does not sound great, but a number of prolific rod makers have used it for years without any problems. Others feeldifferently. It's tough to sort it all out, and the only thing I've been able to conclude (as an amateur trying to make sense of it all) is that any of the commonrodmaking glues can be used successfully, so long as one attends carefully to mixing instructions, temperature, surface preparations, curing practices, etc. Justthe opinion of one list observer.... Barry -----Original Message-----From: Tony Miller 2:46 Called TightbondI called the tight bond companyand told them some of the applications I was considering using their glue for. this is what they said. Answer No 2. I asked if tight bond wasrecommended 3. I asked if it could be used forbamboo to bamboo Answer Yes (recommended tightbond PU) not Tightbond 2 (hesaid both would work but PU stronger)also both good for cork/wood to bamboo.He also told me that low shock resistance. He said if you hit it against something it comes apart easily. He did however think tight bond was more flexible than epoxy.1-800- 347-GLUE (tightbond) call resistant not water proof. My mistake.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from ajthramer@hotmail.com Thu Jun 21 15:15:12 2001 f5LKFBZ07854 Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:15:02 -0700 Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:15:02 GMT Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy FILETIME=[DA52BF90:01C0FA8E] I have used URAC for about 600 rods and have not had a delam. All but about 75 of those have been air cured. The 75 were heat set. I still heat set the glue if I need a blank done in a hurry otherwise I let it air cure(70*+) for 36 hours. I tried epoxy on the ferrules and had some failures with both 5min and 2ton and the Garrison mix that is in his book. Some failures not being acceptable I now use ferrule cement and a pin. J. Zimney has written that URAC needs some moisture in the cane to set up properly and I havewondered if the current trend toward heated and chemical dry boxes that attempt to keep the cane absolutely dry might have something to do with it. Wayne C. being the initial proponent of the dry boxes I note that he uses epoxy that would not be affected by the ultra dry cane. Perhaps an unhappy mixing of methods? The ferrule problem with epoxy has me baffled as I know somethat have had no problem with it but it gave me nothing but grief. I have been accused of not preparing the ferrules properly but I can assue you they were prepped to list standards.A.J. From: "Douglas Losey" CC: Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min EpoxyDate: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:46:48 -0400 Ralph,As I am ready to glue up my first blank you're response to Tony re: URACdelaminations has not exactly inspired a great deal of confidence. The threebooks which amount to my apprenticeship in rodmaking do not mention SIG,Epon, or Titebond II, could you give me more info on these adhesives...? thanks,losey----- Original Message -----From: "Ralph W Moon" Cc: Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 2:08 PMSubject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Tony Adhesives are fickle. I have had to catastrophicdelaminations with URAC, and refuse to even look at it anymore, but I see a number of first rate rod makers using it,including I think, Bob Nunley. I have seen a delaminationof resorcinol, although I personally have not had anyproblems, (One of my favorites) I have seen a adelamination with SIG Epoxy and one with Rod builders epoxy,but never any with Epon heat setting epoxy. I have not seenany failures with Titebond II. I have had ferrule failureswith every epoxy I have used, and I can assure you I payattention to the fitting and preparation of my ferrules. Ihave never had a failure with Urethane Bond. It is my ownunsubstantiated opinion that epoxies are not suitable asferrule cement since they dry to had and temperature changedifferentials between metal and wood will break the bond,despite roughing or not roughingRalph P. S. I might add that devcon has given me more troublethan any other. To each his own I guess if you are using itsuccessfully. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from horsesho@ptd.net Thu Jun 21 17:03:19 2001 f5LM3IZ10943 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy I have been using Urac for 12 years and any problem I have seen withdelaminations have been because of the age of the glue in the can. Eventhough after 6 months the glue is still liguid, when compared to a freshcan the 6 month old stuff is considerably thicker. It is best not to useglue older than 6 months unless stored in a freezer. And I don't thinkit's a good idea to store it in a freezer that stores your food. Marty Ralph W Moon wrote: Tony Adhesives are fickle. I have had to catastrophicdelaminations with URAC, and refuse to even look at it anymore, but I see a number of first rate rod makers using it,including I think, Bob Nunley. I have seen a delaminationof resorcinol, although I personally have not had anyproblems, (One of my favorites) I have seen a adelamination with SIG Epoxy and one with Rod builders epoxy,but never any with Epon heat setting epoxy. I have not seenany failures with Titebond II. I have had ferrule failureswith every epoxy I have used, and I can assure you I payattention to the fitting and preparation of my ferrules. Ihave never had a failure with Urethane Bond. It is my ownunsubstantiated opinion that epoxies are not suitable asferrule cement since they dry to had and temperature changedifferentials between metal and wood will break the bond,despite roughing or not roughingRalph P. S. I might add that devcon has given me more troublethan any other. To each his own I guess if you are using itsuccessfully. from rmoon@ida.net Thu Jun 21 17:19:24 2001 f5LMJOZ11415 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Marty, I have been told that by others, and I have no doubt it is true,but I still had two rods glued with URAC, the day after I got the stuff inthe mail and on a nice warm sunny summer day, and both delaminatedcompletely with about the second cast. Now if I cannot depend on gettingfresh material from the supplier and, if I have to throw 80% out because Idon't build rods fast enough I am double damned if I think it is any good.I know that a lot of rod makers swear by it, but I assure you I wouldn't usethe stuff if it were free and I was paid $100 for every rod I glued. It no****** good.Ralph none wrote: I have been using Urac for 12 years and any problem I have seen withdelaminations have been because of the age of the glue in the can. Eventhough after 6 months the glue is still liguid, when compared to a freshcan the 6 month old stuff is considerably thicker. It is best not to useglue older than 6 months unless stored in a freezer. And I don't thinkit's a good idea to store it in a freezer that stores your food. Marty Ralph W Moon wrote: Tony Adhesives are fickle. I have had to catastrophicdelaminations with URAC, and refuse to even look at it anymore, but I see a number of first rate rod makers using it,including I think, Bob Nunley. I have seen a delaminationof resorcinol, although I personally have not had anyproblems, (One of my favorites) I have seen a adelamination with SIG Epoxy and one with Rod builders epoxy,but never any with Epon heat setting epoxy. I have not seenany failures with Titebond II. I have had ferrule failureswith every epoxy I have used, and I can assure you I payattention to the fitting and preparation of my ferrules. Ihave never had a failure with Urethane Bond. It is my ownunsubstantiated opinion that epoxies are not suitable asferrule cement since they dry to had and temperature changedifferentials between metal and wood will break the bond,despite roughing or not roughingRalph P. S. I might add that devcon has given me more troublethan any other. To each his own I guess if you are using itsuccessfully. from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Thu Jun 21 17:44:57 2001 f5LMiuZ11976 pri.pacificare.com 2001 22:46:59 UT (Tumbleweed ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:44:49 -0700 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy I had the same problem also. The only glue I have had fail is URAC. Tiptotally fell apart at the glue lines. The glue was bought off the shelf, noexpiration date anywhere on the container. Now if the shelf life of URAC isso important why isn't an expiration date printed on the container?Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 3:20 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Marty, I have been told that by others, and I have no doubt it is true,but I still had two rods glued with URAC, the day after I got the stuff inthe mail and on a nice warm sunny summer day, and both delaminatedcompletely with about the second cast. Now if I cannot depend on gettingfresh material from the supplier and, if I have to throw 80% out because Idon't build rods fast enough I am double damned if I think it is anygood.I know that a lot of rod makers swear by it, but I assure you I wouldn'tusethe stuff if it were free and I was paid $100 for every rod I glued. Itno****** good.Ralph none wrote: I have been using Urac for 12 years and any problem I have seen withdelaminations have been because of the age of the glue in the can. Eventhough after 6 months the glue is still liguid, when compared to a freshcan the 6 month old stuff is considerably thicker. It is best not to useglue older than 6 months unless stored in a freezer. And I don't thinkit's a good idea to store it in a freezer that stores your food. Marty Ralph W Moon wrote: Tony Adhesives are fickle. I have had to catastrophicdelaminations with URAC, and refuse to even look at it anymore, but I see a number of first rate rod makers using it,including I think, Bob Nunley. I have seen a delaminationof resorcinol, although I personally have not had anyproblems, (One of my favorites) I have seen a adelamination with SIG Epoxy and one with Rod builders epoxy,but never any with Epon heat setting epoxy. I have not seenany failures with Titebond II. I have had ferrule failureswith every epoxy I have used, and I can assure you I payattention to the fitting and preparation of my ferrules. Ihave never had a failure with Urethane Bond. It is my ownunsubstantiated opinion that epoxies are not suitable asferrule cement since they dry to had and temperature changedifferentials between metal and wood will break the bond,despite roughing or not roughingRalph P. S. I might add that devcon has given me more troublethan any other. To each his own I guess if you are using itsuccessfully. from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Jun 21 18:33:04 2001 f5LNX2Z12652 Subject: Re:Epoxy This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Remember that we all do not bind our rods the same way, and we don't =plane the cane the same way , and we don't even apply the glue the same =way ,or cure the glue the same way. These are all factors which could =change the out come.It's just like when my wife keeps rambling onabout here knee's and I've tuned here outOuch! she just hit me and said "she's talking about her needs, not her =knee's."Tony Miller Remember that we all do not= the same way, and we don't plane the cane the same way , and we don't = It's just like when my wife = onabout here knee's and I've = outOuch! she just hit me and said= talking about her needs, not her knee's."Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from teekay35@interlynx.net Thu Jun 21 19:22:40 2001 f5M0MdZ13370 9AFAFBEF9 Subject: Glue I have used a canadian product, Casco CRH5 resin glue on the last 60 or 70rods. None have delaminated to the best of my knowledge. According to theCasco technician, CRH5 is much like Borden's L100. or URAC 185 except thatCRH5 cures to an undetectable clear glue line. The technician also saidthat normal production life is about 3 months at 70 degrees F. and thatshelf life doubles for every 10 degree drop in temperature, so at 40 degreesits good for two years. If the resin starts to get "lumpy" then its time toget rid of it. Unfortunately, CRH5 is only sold in large quantities. I getmine from an architectural plywood manufacturer where it is used to glueveneer to solid cores. The veneer panels are held under pressure by heatedplattens at 250 degrees for 4 minutes and are then ready for shipping. Iplace my glued and bound rod sections in an oven heated to 200 degrees F.and leave oven and sections to cool down to room temperature, about anhour.After one hour you can safely remove the string , scrape and sand. from cathcreek@hotmail.com Thu Jun 21 19:23:48 2001 f5M0NlZ13481 Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:23:38 -0700 Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:23:37 GMT Subject: Nashville rodmakers? FILETIME=[94F82660:01C0FAB1] Just back from Montana-thanks to everyone who offered suggestions and my appologies to Jim in Kalispel as I only got about 15 minutes of fishing time in while I was there. Jim, I will get back there again and will make a point to get some fihsing time in with you. Anyway, looks like I am off to Nashville next month and was wondering if it worth even bringing a rod with me, or if there are any list members from there. ok, back to glue discussion.... Rob Clarke _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from martinj@aa.net Thu Jun 21 21:46:55 2001 f5M2ksZ14932 Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:46:52 -0700 Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades do you think you could even burnish carbide? I think it might be a bit toohard or brittle. I do know you can't get it as sharp as regular steel. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades Which brings a question to my mind.....I wonder what would happen if I tried burnishing the edges of the cutterinserts?Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:44 AM Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades actually the cutting edge on a scraper is a micro plane blade and cutsthrough the fibers, if it's blunt then it tears through the fiber and doesnot leave a smooth surface. Scrapers edges are rolled with a burnished andif you magnify them you will see that it is a wedge, like a plane blade,that is pushed through the fibers. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:14 AM Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades Actually it's not. The way the cutter inserts are configured, thecuttingaction is more like scraping than cutting. One of the reasons chips atthenodes aren't a problem. Also, the effort to push the planing unitthrough acut is greater than taking a cut with a hand plane.Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 6:04 AM 'AdamVigil'Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades a handmill is hand planing, the difference is that the plane has twoblades and cuts both sides at one pass. Twice as therapeutic! Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Jun 21 23:30:42 2001 f5M4UfZ16473 VAA06957; Subject: Re: undersized ferrules Great Idea, this one is going into file for future reference. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Fwd: undersized ferrules k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:I posted this a year or two ago but for the new list members: If you find you have over sanded and have an undersized male ferrule, youmight try this. Go to an aquarium store and purchase a small bag ofreptile/amphibian sand. It's the very fine sand. Now you need a steel rodjust smaller in diameter than the inside of the male ferrule. Make sureboth ends of the steel rod are square and flat on the end. You only need apiece about 2 or 3 inches long. Now fill the ferrule about 2/3 with thefine sand; enough to fill the section that will fit inside the female. Nowplace the closed end of the ferrule on a solid surface. An oak block shouldwork well. Place the rod into the ferrule and seat it on the sand. Now tapthe rod with a small hammer. Gently, a lot of small "pecks" is better thanone big "whack". The sand spreads the force of the hammer and causes it toswell. Hit it to hard and you can deform the ferrule but if you are gentle,you can bring it to just the right diameter. Regards, Onis k5vkq@ix.netcom.com from Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com Fri Jun 22 08:16:30 2001 f5MDGTZ21030 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:16:31 -0400 2001 -0400 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:13:58 -0400 Subject: RE: Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond adhesives for ferrules Sorry for the persistence, but I just wanted to ask again if anyone has usedAnchor Bond for ferrules, and how it compares to Acraglas. Anotherquestionis if I use Acraglas, should I use any additives (atomized metals forinstance)? Oh, ok, one more question...how about using Epon (which I alreadyhave) for ferrules? Thanks, Andy -----Original Message----- Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com Subject: RE: Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond adhesives for ferrules Also, if I do still end up going with the Acraglas, do you guys recommendadding atomized metal to the Acraglas? Apparently you can add differentmaterials. According to the Brownells site: Atomized (finely powdered) metals can be added to ACRAGLAS GEL toincreaseboth tensile and compression strength along with increased impactresistance. -----Original Message----- Subject: Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond adhesives for ferrules Any opinions on Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond? The place that has Anchor Bondhassomething else I need and I would rather not pay shipping to 2 places ifAnchor Bond is adequate. Thx..Andy from lblove@omniglobal.net Fri Jun 22 08:48:51 2001 f5MDmoZ23029 Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades Howdy all, You will not be able to "burnish" a carbide insert, like you would be ableto do with a steel blade. Also carbidecomes in so many grades and substratesthat one would have to do some researchon which of the current grades wouldbe most suited for your needs. Thereis a German firm that manufacturescarbide inserts for wood working applications, and yes they can get their edges as keen as any razor or other cutter I have ever seen.Also as a general rule Tin coated insertsare duller then an uncoated inserts.The edge must be broke for the Tin to stick to the edge. Ticn coated insertscan be resharpened after the coating processso the edge is sharper then a Tin coated insertand stronger then a uncoated insert. laterBrad -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Old Plane Blades do you think you could even burnish carbide? I think it might be a bit toohard or brittle. I do know you can't get it as sharp as regular steel. Martin Jensen from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Jun 22 09:18:15 2001 f5MEIEZ24450 HAA02453 Subject: impregnating This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Question: Has thompson water seal been tried for impregnation? Are their any = Second question: Cane can be impregnated with pressure only or does a vacuum have to be =pulled on it first? Adam Question: Has thompson water seal been tried impregnation? Are their any negative effects in using it on cane? = Second question: Cane can be impregnated with pressure= a vacuum have to be pulled on it first? Adam from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 22 09:33:24 2001 f5MEXNZ25134 KAA24746; Subject: Re: impregnating As far as I know, you can do it either way. I use pressure but have beenintending to also use a vacuum (whenever I get a-round-tuit ie. make avacuum pump. REgards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Cane can be impregnated with pressure only or does a vacuum have to be pulled on it first? from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Fri Jun 22 10:24:15 2001 f5MFOEZ27020 pri.pacificare.com 2001 15:26:17 UT (Tumbleweed ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:22:21 -0700 Subject: RE: impregnating This is where I have had some experience, having once worked in a petroleumtesting lab where we used to do rock saturation tests. You will get the mostcomplete saturation by putting your material under a vacuum first,introducing your saturant while still under a vacuum, releasing the vacuumslowly, then putting it under pressure. If you try to saturate by onlyapplying pressure, the air inside compresses while under pressure, but whenthe pressure is released the air expands again pushing the saturant backout. This may not be a bad thing for bamboo, considering that weight is afactor also.Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 7:33 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: impregnating As far as I know, you can do it either way. I use pressure but have beenintending to also use a vacuum (whenever I get a-round-tuit ie. make avacuum pump. REgards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Cane can be impregnated with pressure only or does a vacuum have to be pulled on it first? from Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com Fri Jun 22 11:02:27 2001 f5MG2RZ28814 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:02:27 -0400 2001 -0400 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:59:52 -0400 Subject: RE: undersized ferrules Very creative! Got any ideas for when the male is already glued on? I don'twant to deform the female at all since the other male is fine, so I don'twant to crimp the female or anything like that. A very thin coating ofsomething on the male that dries really hard might do it...but I haven'tfound the right stuff yet. I tried rustoleum and then lightly sanded it andI no longer have a tick in the ferrule, but I think this is verytemporary...I know, I could just replace the male with the problem... Andy -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: undersized ferrules Great Idea, this one is going into file for future reference. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Fwd: undersized ferrules k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:I posted this a year or two ago but for the new list members: If you find you have over sanded and have an undersized male ferrule, youmight try this. Go to an aquarium store and purchase a small bag ofreptile/amphibian sand. It's the very fine sand. Now you need a steel rodjust smaller in diameter than the inside of the male ferrule. Make sureboth ends of the steel rod are square and flat on the end. You only need apiece about 2 or 3 inches long. Now fill the ferrule about 2/3 with thefine sand; enough to fill the section that will fit inside the female. Nowplace the closed end of the ferrule on a solid surface. An oak block shouldwork well. Place the rod into the ferrule and seat it on the sand. Now tapthe rod with a small hammer. Gently, a lot of small "pecks" is better thanone big "whack". The sand spreads the force of the hammer and causes it toswell. Hit it to hard and you can deform the ferrule but if you are gentle,you can bring it to just the right diameter. Regards, Onis k5vkq@ix.netcom.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Jun 22 11:20:49 2001 f5MGKmZ00107 JAA23947 Subject: impregnating cane This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I know this topic has been tossed around before but I would like some =clarification. Is it necessary to draw a vacuum on the cane to =impregnate it successfully? Can a high pressure alone be used instead =(up to 800psi)? I want to know if I need to hunt down a vacuum or if I =can just use compressed air from a scuba tank? Just wondering... Adam = vacuum on the cane to impregnate it successfully? Can a high pressure = used instead (up to 800psi)? I want to know if I need to hunt down a = wondering... Adam from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Jun 22 11:26:40 2001 f5MGQdZ00639 JAA22126; Subject: Re: impregnating cane This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Sorry for this, I sent this several days ago and it just showed up now. I dont know why Adam Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 5:14 PMSubject: impregnating cane I know this topic has been tossed around before but I would like some =clarification. Is it necessary to draw a vacuum on the cane to =impregnate it successfully? Can a high pressure alone be used instead =(up to 800psi)? I want to know if I need to hunt down a vacuum or if I =can just use compressed air from a scuba tank? Just wondering... Adam Sorry for this, I sent this several days ago and it = now. I dont know why Adam ----- Original Message ----- Vigil Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 =5:14 PMSubject: impregnating =cane vacuum on the cane to impregnate it successfully? Can a high pressure = used instead (up to 800psi)? I want to know if I need to hunt down a = wondering... Adam from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Fri Jun 22 11:48:50 2001 f5MGmnZ01756 pri.pacificare.com 2001 16:50:52 UT (Tumbleweed ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:48:00 -0700 Subject: RE: impregnating cane I have successfully impregnated bamboo with polyurethane varnish with justavacuum, but my vacuum pump is a laboratory pump that supposedly draws a1micron vacuum - thats near absolute for any practical purposes. There areother factors in saturating any porous medium. Capillary action, which willbe a big factor with bamboo, and wetting - wether the bamboo is oil or waterwet, and what the base of your impregnation fluid is. If your bamboo isabsolutely dry (internally as well as externally) it's wetting propertieswill be neutral - that is whatever the fluid is introduced will get wickedin - capillary action. If there is any water left inside the bamboo (it grewusing water), an oil based impregnation fluid will be repelled. The question I have though, is why would we want to impregnate a bamboorod?It adds a lot of weight to the rod and affects it's casting characteristics-makes it slower.Darryl from cfreaner@hq.nasa.gov Fri Jun 22 11:58:22 2001 f5MGwLZ02267 Subject: RE: impregnating cane At 9:46 AM -0700 on 6/22/01, Hayashida Darryl wrote about RE:impregnating cane I have successfully impregnated bamboo with polyurethane varnish with justavacuum, but my vacuum pump is a laboratory pump that supposedly drawsa 1micron vacuum - thats near absolute for any practical purposes. There areother factors in saturating any porous medium. Capillary action, which willbe a big factor with bamboo, and wetting - wether the bamboo is oil orwaterwet, and what the base of your impregnation fluid is. If your bamboo isabsolutely dry (internally as well as externally) it's wetting propertieswill be neutral - that is whatever the fluid is introduced will get wickedin - capillary action. If there is any water left inside the bamboo (it grewusing water), an oil based impregnation fluid will be repelled. The question I have though, is why would we want to impregnate a bamboorod?It adds a lot of weight to the rod and affects it's casting characteristics-makes it slower.Darryl Darryl: how about impregnating with just a small amount of pressure inch or so impregnated, but not the entire porous core of the rod? If sufficient experimentation were done to determine the controlled amount of time/pressure needed, would something like this (just the outer .002) affect the casting action or weight all that much? Would it help protect the rod from moisture better than just dipping or brushing on the varnish? Claude from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Fri Jun 22 12:05:35 2001 f5MH5YZ02645 pri.pacificare.com 2001 17:07:37 UT (Tumbleweed ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:05:28 -0700 Subject: RE: impregnating cane Well...If you think about it, that's probably what is happening when you dipvarnish rods. People use various ways to reduce the viscosity of the varnish- heat or thinners. When they do that the varnish penetrates into thebambooat least a little bit.Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 9:58 AM Subject: RE: impregnating cane At 9:46 AM -0700 on 6/22/01, Hayashida Darryl wrote about RE:impregnatingcane I have successfully impregnated bamboo with polyurethane varnish withjust avacuum, but my vacuum pump is a laboratory pump that supposedlydraws a 1micron vacuum - thats near absolute for any practical purposes. Thereareother factors in saturating any porous medium. Capillary action, whichwillbe a big factor with bamboo, and wetting - wether the bamboo is oil orwaterwet, and what the base of your impregnation fluid is. If your bamboo isabsolutely dry (internally as well as externally) it's wettingpropertieswill be neutral - that is whatever the fluid is introduced will getwickedin - capillary action. If there is any water left inside the bamboo (itgrewusing water), an oil based impregnation fluid will be repelled. The question I have though, is why would we want to impregnate a bamboorod?It adds a lot of weight to the rod and affects it's castingcharacteristics-makes it slower.Darryl Darryl: how about impregnating with just a small amount of pressure inch or so impregnated, but not the entire porous core of the rod? If sufficient experimentation were done to determine the controlled amount of time/pressure needed, would something like this (just the outer .002) affect the casting action or weight all that much? Would it help protect the rod from moisture better than just dipping or brushing on the varnish? Claude from beadman@mac.com Fri Jun 22 12:21:50 2001 f5MHLnZ03109 Subject: RE: impregnating cane At 10:03 AM -0700 on 6/22/01, Hayashida Darryl wrote about RE: impregnating cane Well...If you think about it, that's probably what is happening when you dipvarnish rods. People use various ways to reduce the viscosity of thevarnish- heat or thinners. When they do that the varnish penetrates into thebambooat least a little bit.Darryl Good point - I hadn't thought of it in that respect. Based on that then, several thinned coats to allow soaking into the near-surface pores would be much better than a single unthinned coat for a long-term moisture barrier...which is why a lot of you dip several times... Thanks,Claude from andy@w-link.net Fri Jun 22 13:16:21 2001 f5MIGKZ04684 Subject: A Bamboo Movie (solicitation) Gentlemen, Please pardon the post here but I felt this an appropriate place for mymessage. I've been working on producing a documentary movie which shows thetransition of a bamboo culm from a living plant into a finished flyrod.This has been a year long process up to now. As we are moving toward ourpotential filming dates, we've lost two of our main financial supporters. Ihave an excellent group of people involved here and we would love tocomplete this project. This is not a movie about building a bamboo flyrodbut the story of transformation; how the principle of a commodity farm cropis, through the hands of a dozen impassioned players, recreated and utilizedas a mystical piece of art. Anyone interested in investing in this project, please contact me directly Cordially, Andy RoyerThe Bamboo Broker206.463.1273www.bamboobroker.com from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 22 13:51:28 2001 Subject: RE: undersized ferrules I haven't tried this but it is non destructive so... If the fit is nearly there(sounds like it may be), try dissolving some shaved carnuba wax in somenaptha (lighter fluis). paint a little on the ferrule and let it dry. You mightadd a little beeswax if the carnuba wax will not stick. You'll have to repreatit regularly but again, it is non destructive. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com wrote:Very creative! Got any ideas for when the male is already glued on? I don'twant to deform the female at all since the other male is fine, so I don'twant to crimp the female or anything like that. A very thin coating ofsomething on the male that dries really hard might do it...but I haven'tfound the right stuff yet. I tried rustoleum and then lightly sanded it andI no longer have a tick in the ferrule, but I think this is verytemporary...I know, I could just replace the male with the problem... Andy -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: undersized ferrules Great Idea, this one is going into file for future reference. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Fwd: undersized ferrules k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:I posted this a year or two ago but for the new list members: If you find you have over sanded and have an undersized male ferrule, youmight try this. Go to an aquarium store and purchase a small bag ofreptile/amphibian sand. It's the very fine sand. Now you need a steel rodjust smaller in diameter than the inside of the male ferrule. Make sureboth ends of the steel rod are square and flat on the end. You only need apiece about 2 or 3 inches long. Now fill the ferrule about 2/3 with thefine sand; enough to fill the section that will fit inside the female. Nowplace the closed end of the ferrule on a solid surface. An oak block shouldwork well. Place the rod into the ferrule and seat it on the sand. Now tapthe rod with a small hammer. Gently, a lot of small "pecks" is better thanone big "whack". The sand spreads the force of the hammer and causes it toswell. Hit it to hard and you can deform the ferrule but if you are gentle,you can bring it to just the right diameter. Regards, Onis k5vkq@ix.netcom.com from fiveside@net-gate.com Fri Jun 22 14:14:18 2001 f5MJEHZ06632 Subject: Re: use of Devcon 5 minute epoxy, etc. Several of you have recently discussed the use of Devcon epoxy for gluingferrules. I believe that Chris Bogart discussed/recommended using Devcon5minute epoxy a few years ago(a search through the archives supportsthis).Perhaps he could enlighten us as to his success/failure with the latterover this period of time. I have a dozen or so early rods ferruled with thelatter and they have held up fine for the past 4-5 years or so. These rodsare fished a good 250 days a year (if not more), although I recentlychanged to Pliobond. Chris, are you out there?Jerry Snider Hi Jerry and All, First it was Reid's Ferruleflex (anyone remember Reid's?) and since thenWeldwood flammable contact cement which seems a bit tougher thanPliobond seems a good choice since it remains flexible which is a property we arelooking for. Bill PS It also works great for attaching new felt soles. from vfish@vFish.net Fri Jun 22 14:15:53 2001 f5MJFqZ06797 Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:15:51 -0500 Subject: RE: Milward book This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Bob, Your book has been shipped yesterday as well as everyone else who orderedthem from me. (I've only replied on list since Bob posted on list) I've read about 60 pages so far... Very technical so far... many interestingconclusions so far... Darrellwww.vfish.net/Milward-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 2:06 PM Subject: Milward book Just wondered if anyone has seen the book yet? I am very excited to getmine, and I am awaiting its arrival. Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com716.836.8297 Bob, from me. only replied on list since Bob posted on list) conclusions so far... Darrellwww.vfish.net/Milward MaulucciSent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 2:06 bookJust wondered if anyone has seen the book = I am very excited to get mine, and I am awaiting its =arrival. from iank@ts.co.nz Fri Jun 22 14:31:17 2001 f5MJVFZ07393 Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:28:23 +1200 Subject: Re: impregnating cane My experience is related to treating very large timber beams, in a chamber30 metres long and 3 metres in diameter, for protection against white antsetc. These professional treatment plant use the vacuum, then flood, thenpressure, arrangement. These plants work on the theory of providing a thin skin penetration andconsider any penetration beyond about 1/4 inch an expensive waste ofvaluable chemical. The same principal should apply to cane rods, a thinlayer of penetration is all that is required, sort of varnish layer insidethe rod rather then outside. Moisture content is very important for this technique. Too much moistureandit inhibits the vacuum process , too little and you start to get " cellfailures" in the timber. You need to work between 10 and 14% moisturecontent.That may not apply to a more dense timber ( grass) like bamboo . Ian----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: impregnating cane At 10:03 AM -0700 on 6/22/01, Hayashida Darryl wrote about RE:impregnating cane Well...If you think about it, that's probably what is happening when you dipvarnish rods. People use various ways to reduce the viscosity of thevarnish- heat or thinners. When they do that the varnish penetrates into thebambooat least a little bit.Darryl Good point - I hadn't thought of it in that respect. Based on thatthen, several thinned coats to allow soaking into the near-surfacepores would be much better than a single unthinned coat for along-term moisture barrier...which is why a lot of you dip severaltimes... Thanks,Claude from fiveside@net-gate.com Fri Jun 22 14:39:37 2001 f5MJdaZ07827 Subject: Impregnation To the List,Aside from the aspects dealt with by Doctor Ruth, I seem to recall that inthe early days of cane rod impregnation, bakelite was used for the purposesof eliminating the need for varnish, but mainly to permit milling thefinished blanks to final dimensions, power fibers bedamned. It made onetough rod, but indeed heavy and slow. And relatively low cost. Can any oneconfirm this? Bill from RMargiotta@aol.com Fri Jun 22 15:39:00 2001 f5MKd0Z09557 Subject: Re: Impregnation According to the book that Dick Spurr and Jordna's wife did on Wes Jordan, there is a statement by Wes saying the Orvis bakelite impregnation adds 9% weight to the rod. According to the Garrison book, a coat of polyurethane adds 15 grains of weight (0.031 oz.). (This was a blanket statement without regard to rod size.) Assuming you start with cane that weighs 2 oz, impregnation would add 0.18 oz. and varnishing with 3 coats would add 0.09 oz. If all of this is true, that doesn't seem like a lot of extra weight on a finished rod. I have no idea about the power fiber milling/sanding. And my Orivs rods are anything but slow -- they tend to be on the fast side. --Rich from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Jun 22 16:36:54 2001 f5MLarZ11255 Subject: Re: undersized ferrules You can deform the male in a 3 jaw chuck. I have never done it but haveheard ofa few guys doing it. By slightly crimping in the male at the jaw points itpushes out slightly in between the jaw points. As always mark the points ofcontact and go slowly. Marty Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com wrote: Very creative! Got any ideas for when the male is already glued on? I don'twant to deform the female at all since the other male is fine, so I don'twant to crimp the female or anything like that. A very thin coating ofsomething on the male that dries really hard might do it...but I haven'tfound the right stuff yet. I tried rustoleum and then lightly sanded it andI no longer have a tick in the ferrule, but I think this is verytemporary...I know, I could just replace the male with the problem... Andy -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:35 AM Subject: Re: undersized ferrules Great Idea, this one is going into file for future reference. Adam----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 7:47 AMSubject: Fwd: undersized ferrules k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:I posted this a year or two ago but for the new list members: If you find you have over sanded and have an undersized male ferrule,youmight try this. Go to an aquarium store and purchase a small bag ofreptile/amphibian sand. It's the very fine sand. Now you need a steel rodjust smaller in diameter than the inside of the male ferrule. Make sureboth ends of the steel rod are square and flat on the end. You only need apiece about 2 or 3 inches long. Now fill the ferrule about 2/3 with thefine sand; enough to fill the section that will fit inside the female. Nowplace the closed end of the ferrule on a solid surface. An oak block shouldwork well. Place the rod into the ferrule and seat it on the sand. Now tapthe rod with a small hammer. Gently, a lot of small "pecks" is better thanone big "whack". The sand spreads the force of the hammer and causes ittoswell. Hit it to hard and you can deform the ferrule but if you are gentle,you can bring it to just the right diameter. Regards, Onis k5vkq@ix.netcom.com from teekay35@interlynx.net Fri Jun 22 17:24:42 2001 f5MMOfZ12369 Subject: Re: impregnating cane Back in the late 50's or early 60's I toured the Orvis plant in Manchester,VT. Unless my memory fails me, I'm sure that the cane sections wereplacedin a trough of impregnating liquid for several days. No pressure wasapplied. Also, doesn't the Herter book on rodmaking describe the patent from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Fri Jun 22 17:36:12 2001 f5MMaBZ12722 [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: impregnating cane I toured the Orvis cane shop in 1989 with my wife (yes, it was on ourhoneymoon -- how romantic, eh?). We were told that the sections werebathed mention of vacuum or pressure. They said that they still use Bakelite, butthat it was "modified". Big surprise there.... Good memory, Ted! TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: impregnating cane Back in the late 50's or early 60's I toured the Orvis plant in Manchester,VT. Unless my memory fails me, I'm sure that the cane sections wereplacedin a trough of impregnating liquid for several days. No pressure wasapplied. Also, doesn't the Herter book on rodmaking describe the patent from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 17:39:06 2001 f5MMd5Z12880 2001 15:39:05 PDT Subject: RE: undersized ferrules a thin coat of super glue works. it isn't permenantbut it lasts a long time. timothy --- Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com wrote:Very creative! Got any ideas for when the male isalready glued on? I don'twant to deform the female at all since the othermale is fine, so I don'twant to crimp the female or anything like that. Avery thin coating ofsomething on the male that dries really hard mightdo it...but I haven'tfound the right stuff yet. I tried rustoleum andthen lightly sanded it andI no longer have a tick in the ferrule, but I thinkthis is verytemporary...I know, I could just replace the malewith the problem... Andy -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Of Adam VigilSent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:35 AM Subject: Re: undersized ferrules Great Idea, this one is going into file for futurereference. Adam----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 7:47 AMSubject: Fwd: undersized ferrules k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:I posted this a year or two ago but for the newlist members: If you find you have over sanded and have anundersized male ferrule, youmight try this. Go to an aquarium store andpurchase a small bag ofreptile/amphibian sand. It's the very fine sand. Now you need a steel rodjust smaller in diameter than the inside of the maleferrule. Make sureboth ends of the steel rod are square and flat onthe end. You only need apiece about 2 or 3 inches long. Now fill theferrule about 2/3 with thefine sand; enough to fill the section that will fitinside the female. Nowplace the closed end of the ferrule on a solidsurface. An oak block shouldwork well. Place the rod into the ferrule and seatit on the sand. Now tapthe rod with a small hammer. Gently, a lot of small"pecks" is better thanone big "whack". The sand spreads the force of thehammer and causes it toswell. Hit it to hard and you can deform theferrule but if you are gentle,you can bring it to just the right diameter. Regards, Onis k5vkq@ix.netcom.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Jun 22 17:44:39 2001 f5MMicZ13078 PAA19434 Subject: Why impregnate? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Good question Darryl, The finishes that are currently used are fantastic. With me it is the =process of getting the cane impregnated and being able to finish a rod =in various methods is what draws me in. Years ago I knew a man that was rather well known in the custom archery =buisness. He created wonderful hand crafted bows and rifle stocks. His =name is Norm Richards, if if remember correctly. Anyway the way his =finish a bow was he would set it into a light cabinet and let the lights =heat it up to open up the wood. As the bow was heated he would then =spray his finish onto the bow and let it remain for awhile in the light =then he would turn the lights off and let the bow cool down. I rember =him telling me this is how he got finish into the wood. His finish work = Would heating up the blank with lights under the boiling point of H2O( =212F) and then applying finish provide a surface impregnation whichs =adds little weight? This seems to be similar to what Terry Acklund =claims about the characteristics of his impregnation on his rods. Adam Good question Darryl, The finishes that are currently used = being able to finish a rod in various methods is what draws me =in. = known in the custom archery buisness. He created wonderful hand crafted = the way his finish a bow was he would set it into a light cabinet and = then he would turn the lights off and let the bow cool down. I rember = superb. Would heating up the blank with lights = impregnation whichs adds little weight? This seems to be similar to what = rods. Adam from wer_education@yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 18:16:48 2001 f5MNGlZ13688 2001 16:16:46 PDT Subject: Form Problems Thanks for taking the time to look over my question. Iam a novice. My name is Ed. I have read the list servea little on someone else's PC and I have access to one direction.I had an oak final planning form but the screwsstripped and it can't close with any accuracy. Anyhints on a avoiding this ? Also could someone suggestwhat to do to redo the threads ? I finished planningone section and got stuck . The 10th position won'tclose under 60/1000s. I did try epoxy , weld epoxyand putty in the holds and re tapped them. No helpthey are still stripped. So make a metal one might be answer but I havepurchased some metal bars 6 ft to make a metalplanning form but the edges are round. When I putclamps on them they are 50/ 1000 deep already on theinside edges. I haven't even started to cut the 60degree V so I need to join them. I have checked with 2 local metal shops and they want more to square themthan new bootstraps. I don't have a mill or access toone just some basic work working tools ( lathe , drillpress, sander, router etc). Any work arounds thatyou know of would be appreciated .thanks,ED __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from channer@frontier.net Fri Jun 22 18:54:47 2001 f5MNslZ14268 Subject: Re: Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond adhesives for ferrules Andy;I don't know about Anchor Bond, but Accraglas Gel works very well. It isdesigned to be a bit flexible, so it can give a bit when the metal movesmore than the bamboo. I don't think Epon is meant to bond metal andwood, but don't take my word for, there is a site for Epon somewhere onthe web, go there and email thier tech support and they will tell youwhat you need to know.John Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com wrote: Sorry for the persistence, but I just wanted to ask again if anyone hasusedAnchor Bond for ferrules, and how it compares to Acraglas. Anotherquestionis if I use Acraglas, should I use any additives (atomized metals forinstance)? Oh, ok, one more question...how about using Epon (which Ialreadyhave) for ferrules? Thanks, Andy -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.comSent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 1:02 PM Subject: RE: Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond adhesives for ferrules Also, if I do still end up going with the Acraglas, do you guys recommendadding atomized metal to the Acraglas? Apparently you can add differentmaterials. According to the Brownells site: Atomized (finely powdered) metals can be added to ACRAGLAS GEL toincreaseboth tensile and compression strength along with increased impactresistance. -----Original Message-----From: Harsanyi, AndrewSent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 12:53 PM Subject: Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond adhesives for ferrules Any opinions on Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond? The place that has Anchor Bondhassomething else I need and I would rather not pay shipping to 2 places ifAnchor Bond is adequate. Thx..Andy from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Jun 22 20:29:48 2001 f5N1TmZ15475 SAA26133; Subject: Re: Form Problems Check out http://www.cybercom.net/~bconner/planeform.html also get the book Best of the planning form. I got mine fromhttp://vfish.net/books.htm It will show you how to make aluminum angleplanning forms for cheap. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Form Problems Thanks for taking the time to look over my question. Iam a novice. My name is Ed. I have read the list servea little on someone else's PC and I have access to one direction.I had an oak final planning form but the screwsstripped and it can't close with any accuracy. Anyhints on a avoiding this ? Also could someone suggestwhat to do to redo the threads ? I finished planningone section and got stuck . The 10th position won'tclose under 60/1000s. I did try epoxy , weld epoxyand putty in the holds and re tapped them. No helpthey are still stripped.So make a metal one might be answer but I havepurchased some metal bars 6 ft to make a metalplanning form but the edges are round. When I putclamps on them they are 50/ 1000 deep already on theinside edges. I haven't even started to cut the 60degree V so I need to join them. I have checked with2 local metal shops and they want more to square themthan new bootstraps. I don't have a mill or access toone just some basic work working tools ( lathe , drillpress, sander, router etc). Any work arounds thatyou know of would be appreciated .thanks,ED __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Jun 22 21:12:03 2001 f5N2C3Z16228 Subject: Re: undersized ferrules In a message dated 06/22/2001 12:03:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com writes: Andy,The best way to take care of your undersizedmale, would be to nickel plate it and refit it. That's the way I fix them here in my shop. You may be able to find a jeweler locallythat does plating and see if he would nickel plate it for you. Dave LeClair http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from hartzell@easystreet.com Fri Jun 22 22:25:26 2001 f5N3PQZ17442 f5N3PAe23390; Subject: Re: Form Problems Rich,It is possible to make or buy inserts that are threaded that youcould drill for and glue into the wooden forms. A file works on meralto reduce the edge radius. Draw file it until you get as far down asyou need to.Ed Hartzell Rich McGaughey wrote: Thanks for taking the time to look over my question. Iam a novice. My name is Ed. I have read the list servea little on someone else's PC and I have access to one direction.I had an oak final planning form but the screwsstripped and it can't close with any accuracy. Anyhints on a avoiding this ? Also could someone suggestwhat to do to redo the threads ? I finished planningone section and got stuck . The 10th position won'tclose under 60/1000s. I did try epoxy , weld epoxyand putty in the holds and re tapped them. No helpthey are still stripped.So make a metal one might be answer but I havepurchased some metal bars 6 ft to make a metalplanning form but the edges are round. When I putclamps on them they are 50/ 1000 deep already on theinside edges. I haven't even started to cut the 60degree V so I need to join them. I have checked with2 local metal shops and they want more to square themthan new bootstraps. I don't have a mill or access toone just some basic work working tools ( lathe , drillpress, sander, router etc). Any work arounds thatyou know of would be appreciated .thanks,ED __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from jojo@ipa.net Fri Jun 22 23:16:39 2001 f5N4GcZ18061 Subject: Re: impregnating cane Typically, we are dealing with less than 2% moisture content on heat treatedbamboo. This could be good or bad depending upon the medium used forimpregnation. 10% - 12% moisture content would be the equilibrium moisturecontent for most of the US. SNIP Moisture content is very important for this technique. Too much moistureandit inhibits the vacuum process , too little and you start to get " cellfailures" in the timber. You need to work between 10 and 14% moisturecontent.That may not apply to a more dense timber ( grass) like bamboo . Ian from jojo@ipa.net Fri Jun 22 23:18:34 2001 f5N4IYZ18205 Subject: Re: Impregnation Bakelite resin was used in the original Orvis/Wes Jordan impregnationprocess. M-D To the List,Aside from the aspects dealt with by Doctor Ruth, I seem to recall thatinthe early days of cane rod impregnation, bakelite was used for thepurposesof eliminating the need for varnish, but mainly to permit milling thefinished blanks to final dimensions, power fibers bedamned. It made onetough rod, but indeed heavy and slow. And relatively low cost. Can any oneconfirm this? Bill from RMargiotta@aol.com Sat Jun 23 06:35:47 2001 f5NBZkZ21598 Subject: Fwd: impregnating cane --part1_11b.b3630f.2865d90f_boundary --part1_11b.b3630f.2865d90f_boundary Full-name: RMargiotta Subject: Re: impregnating cane I believe the Orvis method is to fully saturate the cane with the liquid resin (many days involved -- not sure how many), then to bake off the liquid at a relatively low temperature. This leaves the resin imbedded in the interstitial spaces, effectively leaving no place for moisture to go even if it were to penetrate. As far as longevity, there is no doubt that this method has works and works very well. Look at all the older Orvis's available (50+ years) on the lists and their generally excellent condition. (The varnish on the wraps may have wilted but the cane is intact.) I will also say it's hard to find an Orvis section with a set. Whether or not you like their castability is another matter, subject to personal taste. --Rich --part1_11b.b3630f.2865d90f_boundary-- from wer_education@yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 09:23:00 2001 f5NEMxZ24487 Jun 2001 07:22:59 PDT Subject: Planning Forms Qustion #2 Ian Kearney , Alain , Ed Hartzell , Lazybee45@aol.com, Troutgetter@aol.com , Adam Vigil , channer , andTony Spezio . Thanks for all your advice and comments on theplanning forms. I have Bruce Connors info. Mac ( my friend who ownsthe PC ) printed it for me and I used it to make theforms. He lets me borrow his books and he hasGarrison , W. Cannach ( SP ?) , The Beautiful Reed and others . He just got the Best of Planning Formand I will try to look at that for some ideas. The wooden forms:I am going to the Lowes today to look for somethreaded inserts the appropriate size, or T nuts How are dowel pins used to keep the alignment ? Isthat the same as a set screw ? The metal forms: I am pretty sure they are cold Rolled Steel. Ipurchased them from Rio Grandee Rebar. I said coldrolled steel so much that they were tired of hearingit. What I am saying is I find it hard to imaginethat I have to take off 40 to 50 / 1000s with a file .Is that right ? And I will check to see that I havea mill file but my file didn't seem to take much off (like less than 1/ 1000 !). I have not been able tofind any other source of cold rolled steel , wherewould you look ? How much should 2 -6 foot lengthscost ? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from trpgo@msn.com Sat Jun 23 11:11:33 2001 f5NGBWZ25862 Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:11:23 -0700 Subject: Stanley plane FILETIME=[25964050:01C0FBFF] I just picked up a Stanley block plane from a garage sale with an adjusta=ble mouth and has a model number of"SW" It seems to be in good condition. Has anyone heard of or used the plane? Tom I justpicked =up a Stanley block plane from a garage sale with an adjustable mouth and = condit= from homes-sold@home.com Sat Jun 23 12:31:09 2001 f5NHV8Z27712 femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com 0700 Subject: Titebond ll & Titebond PU type="multipart/alternative"; This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Looking at the spec sheets for the two I found it interesting to compare =the Application Guidelines and Bond Strength. The first thing that =caught my eye was the required clamping pressure, that seems like a =bunch. The second thing was the difference in loss of strength and % of =wood failure at 150* over night. Could these be possible causes of our =delaminating problems? My conclusion: These products are so good that =when we don't follow the guidelines to the letter we get away with it =most of the time. Let the flames begin! Titebond PUApplication Guidelines Application temperature Above 50=B0F.Assembly time after glue application 20-25 minutes (70=B0F./50%RH)Required clamping pressureEnough to bring joints tightly together = 100-150 psi for softwoods, 125-175 psi for medium woods and =175-250 psi for hardwoods).Cleanup Mineral spirits while glue is wet. Scrape or sand off =dried excess. Bond Strength ASTM D-905 Application Guidelines Application temperature Above 55=B0F.Assembly time after glue application 5 minutes (70=B0F./50%RH)Required clamping pressure Enough to bring joints tightly together =(generally, 100-150 psi for softwoods, 125-175 psi for medium woods and =175-250 psi for hardwoods)Cleanup Damp cloth while glue is wet. Scrape off dried excess. Bond Strength ASTM D-905 Looking at the spec sheets for the two= first thing that caught my eye was the required clamping pressure, that = like a bunch. The second thing was the difference in loss of strength = delaminating problems? My conclusion: These products are so good that = time. Let the flames begin! Titebond PU Application =Guidelines temperature Above =50=B0F.Assembly time after glue =application 20-25 minutes =(70=B0F./50%RH)Required clampingpressureEnough to bring joints tightly together = 30-80 psi for HPL, 100-150 psi for softwoods, 125-175 psi for = woods and 175-250 psi for hardwoods).Cleanup Mineral spirits while glue is wet. Scrape = dried excess. Bond Strength ASTM = Maple) Temperature psi% = Failure Room =Temperature3,500+60 150=B0F. =Overnight3,000+50 ll Application =Guidelines temperature Above =55=B0F.Assembly time after glue application =5 minutes(70=B0F./50%RH)Required clamping pressure Enough to bring joints tightly together = 100-150 psi for softwoods, 125-175 psi for medium woods and = Damp cloth= wet. Scrape off dried excess. Bond Strength ASTM = Maple) Temperature psi% = Failure Room =Temperature3,75072 150=B0F. =Overnight1,7506 name="clear.gif" Content-Location: http://www.titebond.com/images/clear.gif R0lGODlhAgACAID/AMDAwAAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAACAAIAAAIChFEAOw== from timklein@qwest.net Sat Jun 23 15:49:29 2001 f5NKnTZ00337 (63.225.241.220) Subject: Re: Titebond ll & Titebond PU Don Schneider wrote: My conclusion: These products are so good that when we don't follow theguidelines to the letterwe get away with it most of the time. I certainly won't argue with you about that. When I started out I bound mysections by hand and can guarantee you that my clamping pressure not onlyvaried from section to section, it varied inch by inch! (as tired as my hands got, I'd have to guess that one end of each section Idid was half the tension of the end where I started!) Still though, I've never had a failure. A few years ago, I glued up a test section with Titebond II that I submergedin water for a couple weeks, slowly dried it over the next two weeks, thenflexed the living hell out of it.....no delamination. Mike Clark told me that one of the reasons he uses Titebond II is because ofhow well thin layers and chunks of dried glue, submerged in water for daysat a time, held up in his tests. My only complaint is the relatively short working time. I know there's aslow drying formula, but I haven't tried it out yet. Does anyone here haveany experience with it? I know Titebond II isn't the most exotic thing out there (which seems to goagainst many a rodmakers creedo of making everything as difficult andesoteric as possible), but I figure if it's good enough for some of the bestknown rodmakers of today, then it's plenty good enough for me. ---Tim from DNHayashida@aol.com Sat Jun 23 16:26:21 2001 f5NLQLZ01096 Subject: Re: Titebond ll & Titebond PU --part1_e5.820bbe7.28666378_boundary I have used Titebond II Extend for about a year now (maybe two - the memory isn't what it used to be), no problems at all including putting glued sections in an oven at 200 degrees for two hours due to some residual tendency to take a set. It came out perfect and hasn't failed yet. I get it at www.woodcraft.com.Darryl In a message dated 6/23/01 1:50:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, timklein@qwest.net writes:My only complaint is the relatively short working time. I know there's aslow drying formula, but I haven't tried it out yet. Does anyone here haveany experience with it? --part1_e5.820bbe7.28666378_boundary I haveused Titebond II Extend for about a year now (maybe two - the memory isn't what it used to be), no problems at all including putting glued sections in an oven at 200 degrees for two hours due to some residual tendency to take a set. It came out perfect and hasn't failed yet. I getit at www.woodcraft.com.Darryl In a message dated 6/23/01 1:50:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, timklein@qwest.net writes:My only complaint is the relatively short working time. I know there's aslow drying formula, but I haven't tried it out yet. Does anyone herehaveany experience with it? --part1_e5.820bbe7.28666378_boundary-- from gjm80301@yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 18:19:00 2001 f5NNJ0Z02757 2001 16:18:59 PDT Subject: Sitting In O'hare with a four-hour delay and loving it Only because I'm on my way home after a great three days in Grayrock. Thanks to everyone there. Yes, those rods by Jeff Wagner and Al Meved are, in fact, thatbeautiful. Get a look at Jim Bureau's also. I've got 64 digital pictures I took that I can snailmail on a CD forthose interested. Just send me your address. They take up about 42meg, so the CD is the best way to see them. Jerry __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Sat Jun 23 19:39:17 2001 f5O0dHZ03728 Subject: Re: Titebond ll & Titebond PU This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Darryl: I use Titebond to glue scarf joints on my rods, but tried the 200 degree = turned a dark brown. Joe Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 5:26 PMSubject: Re: Titebond ll & Titebond PU I have used Titebond II Extend for about a year now (maybe two - the = tendency to take a set. It came out perfect and hasn't failed yet. I = My only complaint is the relatively short working time. I know = slow drying formula, but I haven't tried it out yet. Does anyone = Darryl: I use Titebond to glue scarf joints on my rods, but = 200 degree for two hours to set the Nyatex that I used to glue = joints turned a dark brown. Joe other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message ----- DNHayashida@aol.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 = PMSubject: Re: Titebond ll & = PU used Titebond II Extend for about a year now (maybe two - the memory = what it used to be), no problems at all including putting glued = in an oven at 200 degrees for two hours due to some residual = take a set. It came out perfect and hasn't failed yet. I get it at =www.woodcraft.com.Darryl = message dated 6/23/01 1:50:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, = writes: My only complaint is the relatively short working time. = there's a slow drying formula, but I haven't tried it out yet. = anyone here have any experience with it? from ctn45555@centurytel.net Sat Jun 23 20:55:17 2001 f5O1tGZ04952 f5O1tEK13156 Organization: Smith & Boyd Subject: sanding and drying time At long last I am ready to dip my first rod. I am using Minwax Helmsmanspar urethane. There are two points I am unclear on: 1.) How long should the sections dry between successive coats(the can says 6 hours)?2.) Should I sand between all coats, or just before the final(third) coat? Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for your help, Chad from horsesho@ptd.net Sat Jun 23 20:59:59 2001 f5O1xxZ05138 Subject: Re: Titebond ll & Titebond PU --------------98093854F153EE8D34F43B72 Hi Darryl, This is the water based Titebond II extend wood glue you aretalking about isn't it? I always wanted to try it but after talking to aTech from the company I was told the strength of the glue diminishesrapidly as temps approach 200degrees F.I remember stopping in at the Winston Bamboo shop a few years ago. Theywere gluing up strips with this white water based glue that smelled justlike Elmers white glue. Glenn Brackett told me it was similar but hedidn't tell me any more. Marty DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: I have used Titebond II Extend for about a year now (maybe two - thememoryisn't what it used to be), no problems at all including putting gluedsections in an oven at 200 degrees for two hours due to some residualtendency to take a set. It came out perfect and hasn't failed yet. Iget itat www.woodcraft.com.Darryl In a message dated 6/23/01 1:50:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,timklein@qwest.net writes: My only complaint is the relatively short working time. I knowthere's aslow drying formula, but I haven't tried it out yet. Does anyonehere haveany experience with it? --------------98093854F153EE8D34F43B72 Hi Darryl, This is the water based Titebond II extend wood glue you aretalking about isn't it? I always wanted to try it but after talking toa Tech from the company I was told the strength of the glue diminishes ago. They were gluing up strips with this white water based glue that smelledjust like Elmers white glue. Glenn Brackett told me it was similar buthe didn't tell me any more. MartyDNHayashida@aol.com wrote:Ihave used Titebond II Extend for about a year now (maybe two - thememoryisn'twhat it used to be), no problems at all including puttinggluedsectionsin an oven at 200 degrees for two hours due to someresidualtendencyto take a set. It came out perfect and hasn't failed yet. I getitatwww.woodcraft.com.DarrylIna message dated 6/23/01 1:50:05 PM Pacific DaylightTime,timklein@qwest.netwrites:Myonly complaint is the relatively short working time. I know there'saslow dryingformula, but I haven't tried it out yet. Does anyone herehaveanyexperiencewith it? --------------98093854F153EE8D34F43B72-- from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sat Jun 23 21:04:06 2001 f5O245Z05372 Subject: Re: sanding and drying time In a message dated 06/23/2001 9:55:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ctn45555@centurytel.net writes: Hi Chad, I sand the first coat and the second coat,after drying 24 hours between coats. Dave http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from flytyr@southshore.com Sat Jun 23 22:09:34 2001 f5O39YZ06207 f5O39Qb09074;Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:09:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Titebond ll & Titebond PU Exterior Carpenters Glue on my first 12 rods. Theyare all still ticking. Rod # 1 has taken over 300fish and has been soaked several times. It is overtwo years old now.I switched to Epon because it seemed the thing todo. When asked what glue do you use it raiseseyebrows when you say Elmers.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com none wrote: Hi Darryl, This is the water based Titebond IIextend wood glue you are talking about isn't it?I always wanted to try it but after talking to aTech from the company I was told the strength ofthe glue diminishes rapidly as temps approach200degrees F.I remember stopping in at the Winston Bambooshop a few years ago. They were gluing up stripswith this white water based glue that smelledjust like Elmers white glue. Glenn Brackett toldme it was similar but he didn't tell me anymore. Marty DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: I have used Titebond II Extend for about ayear now (maybe two - the memoryisn't what it used to be), no problems at allincluding putting gluedsections in an oven at 200 degrees for twohours due to some residualtendency to take a set. It came out perfectand hasn't failed yet. I get itat www.woodcraft.com.Darryl In a message dated 6/23/01 1:50:05 PM PacificDaylight Time,timklein@qwest.net writes: My only complaint is the relatively shortworking time. I know there's aslow drying formula, but I haven't tried itout yet. Does anyone here haveany experience with it? from DNHayashida@aol.com Sat Jun 23 22:44:31 2001 f5O3iVZ06855 Subject: Re: Titebond ll & Titebond PU --part1_70.c15603f.2866bc1a_boundary We have come across something similar on this list before. Some people say they heat treat at 375 F for 30 minutes, but when I try it I get little charred pieces. All I can guess is different ovens types or tempmeasurement, who knows?Darryl In a message dated 6/23/01 5:39:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jcbyrd@direct-pest.com writes:Darryl: I use Titebond to glue scarf joints on my rods, but tried the 200 degree turned a dark brown. Joe --part1_70.c15603f.2866bc1a_boundary We have come across something similar on this list before. Some peoplesay they heat treat at 375 F for 30 minutes, but when I try it I get little charred pieces. All I can guess is different ovens types or tempmeasurement, who knows?Darryl In a message dated 6/23/01 5:39:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jcbyrd@direct-pest.com writes:Darryl: I use Titebond to glue scarf joints on my rods, but tried the 200 degree joints turned a dark brown. Joe --part1_70.c15603f.2866bc1a_boundary-- from DNHayashida@aol.com Sat Jun 23 22:52:30 2001 f5O3qTZ07096 Subject: Re: Titebond ll & Titebond PU --part1_37.16ea03eb.2866bdf4_boundary I've tried Elmers, and I've tried Carpenters glue. They work just fine. Remember the "old masters" used hide glue and that isn't even close to waterproof. The varnish should keep water away from the glue in any case.P.S. The only failure with gluing strips I've ever had was with URAC. Darryl In a message dated 6/23/01 7:00:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,horsesho@ptd.net writes:Hi Darryl, This is the water based Titebond II extend wood glue you are talking about isn't it? I always wanted to try it but after talking to a Tech from the company I was told the strength of the glue diminishes rapidly as temps approach 200degrees F. I remember stopping in at the Winston Bamboo shop a few years ago. They were gluing up strips with this white water based glue that smelled just like Elmers white glue. Glenn Brackett told me it was similar but he didn't tell me any more. Marty --part1_37.16ea03eb.2866bdf4_boundary I've tried Elmers, and I've tried Carpenters glue. They work just fine. Remember the "old masters" used hide glue and that isn't even close to waterproof. The varnish should keep water away from the glue in anycase.P.S. The only failure with gluing strips I've ever had was with URAC. Darryl In a message dated 6/23/01 7:00:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,horsesho@ptd.net writes:Hi Darryl, This isthe water based Titebond II extend wood glue you are talking about isn't it? I always wanted to try it but after talking to a Tech from the company I was told the strength of the glue diminishes I remember stopping in at the Winston Bamboo shop a few years ago.They were gluing up strips with this white water based glue that smelled just like Elmers white glue. Glenn Brackett told me it was similar but hedidn't tell me any more. Marty --part1_37.16ea03eb.2866bdf4_boundary-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sat Jun 23 23:04:04 2001 f5O444Z07386 Subject: Excess ferrule glue Hi folks,Just cleaned the glue out from between the serrations ona couple of rods worth of ferrules. My procedure scares me,and I'm looking for suggestions. I taper and crown theferrules, then install and wrap. After 24-36 hours, Iremove the string, and begin the process of cleaning theglue from between the ferrules. I carefully use a finepointed x-acto knife to make a little slice in the glue,tracing around the ferrule tabs. Then I carefully scratchmost of the glue away with a bodkin. Finally, a little workwith steel wool cleans everything up. Only problem is, one slip and I've got a gash in thebamboo, or a scratch in the ferrule, or a bloody finger.There has to be a better way. All suggestions appreciated. Harry--"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from martinj@aa.net Sun Jun 24 00:34:21 2001 f5O5YJZ08650 Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:34:02 -0700 Subject: RE: Titebond ll & Titebond PU Sounds like you used an "alphetic" glue. I would expect that it would be atleast the equal and almost for sure better than, the old hide glues. I havenot used this "yellow" Elmer's glue to build a rod, but I would not behesitant to use it. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Titebond ll & Titebond PU Exterior Carpenters Glue on my first 12 rods. Theyare all still ticking. Rod # 1 has taken over 300fish and has been soaked several times. It is overtwo years old now.I switched to Epon because it seemed the thing todo. When asked what glue do you use it raiseseyebrows when you say Elmers.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com none wrote: Hi Darryl, This is the water based Titebond IIextend wood glue you are talking about isn't it?I always wanted to try it but after talking to aTech from the company I was told the strength ofthe glue diminishes rapidly as temps approach200degrees F.I remember stopping in at the Winston Bambooshop a few years ago. They were gluing up stripswith this white water based glue that smelledjust like Elmers white glue. Glenn Brackett toldme it was similar but he didn't tell me anymore. Marty DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: I have used Titebond II Extend for about ayear now (maybe two - the memoryisn't what it used to be), no problems at allincluding putting gluedsections in an oven at 200 degrees for twohours due to some residualtendency to take a set. It came out perfectand hasn't failed yet. I get itat www.woodcraft.com.Darryl In a message dated 6/23/01 1:50:05 PM PacificDaylight Time,timklein@qwest.net writes: My only complaint is the relatively shortworking time. I know there's aslow drying formula, but I haven't tried itout yet. Does anyone here haveany experience with it? from horsesho@ptd.net Sun Jun 24 05:19:15 2001 f5OAJEZ10579 sender ) Subject: Re: sanding and drying time Chad, I would let them dry 24 hours between coats. I would hit them withsteel wool between coats but would sand them just before to the final coat.You can sand instead of steel wool between coats but I like to use steelwool to degloss as it is much faster. When you sand prior to the last coatyou want to spend some time to get the poly perfectly smooth. Marty Amy & Chad wrote: At long last I am ready to dip my first rod. I am using Minwax Helmsmanspar urethane. There are two points I am unclear on: 1.) How long should the sections dry between successive coats(the can says 6 hours)?2.) Should I sand between all coats, or just before the final(third) coat? Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for your help, Chad from flytyr@southshore.com Sun Jun 24 06:26:10 2001 f5OBQ9Z11292 f5OBQ8b04328 Subject: Re: Titebond ll & Titebond PU My oven is on the money and if I was to heat treat strips. I find for my purposes on a blond rod, 12minuets total works just fine. The 7 minuets is okon a flamed rod.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: We have come across something similar on thislist before. Some people saythey heat treat at 375 F for 30 minutes, butwhen I try it I get littlecharred pieces. All I can guess is differentovens types or temp measurement,who knows?Darryl In a message dated 6/23/01 5:39:32 PM PacificDaylight Time,jcbyrd@direct- pest.com writes: Darryl: I use Titebond to glue scarf joints on myrods, but tried the 200 degree glue with. Scarf jointsturned a dark brown. Joe from MasjC1@aol.com Sun Jun 24 10:45:53 2001 f5OFjqZ14548 Subject: Re: Excess ferrule glue --part1_3d.d78fe7a.2867651c_boundary Harry, I do the same thing with dental tools. No problems so far. Mark Cole --part1_3d.d78fe7a.2867651c_boundary Harry, I do the same thing with dental tools. No problems so far. Mark Cole --part1_3d.d78fe7a.2867651c_boundary-- from bhoy551@earthlink.net Sun Jun 24 12:30:19 2001 f5OHUIZ15942 KAA20974; Subject: Re: Stanley plane Hi, Tom, The SW (or Sweetheart) symbol was a logo for the entire Stanley works, not a model designation. The heart was in honor of William Hart, company chairman who was associated with Stanley for more than 60 years. SW stood 1934 in favor of the familiar notched rectangle. Sweetheart planes are much sought after as good users and collectibles. If yours is a high angle plane ( the adjustment wheel on high angle planes is parallel to the sole, low angle wheels are set at an angle facing toward the front) it's probably either a 9 1/2 (japanned pressure plate released instruments for rodbuilding. I use 'em both. Bill Hoy At 12:09 PM 6/23/01, Tom Peters wrote:I just picked up a Stanley block plane from a garage sale with an adjustable mouth and has a model number of"SW" It seems to be in good condition. Has anyone heard of or used the plane? Tom from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Sun Jun 24 14:34:53 2001 f5OJYpZ17515 Subject: Re: Excess ferrule glue Harry: I always clean up the ferrule real good with Mineral Spirits prior tobinding with binding cord. Never have to clean out between the serrations. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life".----- Original Message ----- Subject: Excess ferrule glue Hi folks,Just cleaned the glue out from between the serrations ona couple of rods worth of ferrules. My procedure scares me,and I'm looking for suggestions. I taper and crown theferrules, then install and wrap. After 24-36 hours, Iremove the string, and begin the process of cleaning theglue from between the ferrules. I carefully use a finepointed x-acto knife to make a little slice in the glue,tracing around the ferrule tabs. Then I carefully scratchmost of the glue away with a bodkin. Finally, a little workwith steel wool cleans everything up. Only problem is, one slip and I've got a gash in thebamboo, or a scratch in the ferrule, or a bloody finger.There has to be a better way. All suggestions appreciated. Harry--"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Jun 24 19:13:40 2001 f5P0DdZ19829 RAA04599 Subject: test delete This is a multi-part message in MIME format. from teekay35@interlynx.net Sun Jun 24 20:48:28 2001 f5P1mRZ21018 Subject: Re: Excess ferrule glue Harry, I wipe the excess glue off the ferrules before binding them. Afterthe epoxy is dried, I lightly scrape any excess glue that may have squeezedout in binding, then lightly polish with steel wool by stroking in onedirection. I make no attempt to remove any epoxy that is in the ferruleslits. from CCGGLOBAL@aol.com Sun Jun 24 21:20:27 2001 f5P2KQZ21482 Subject: GrayRock Gathering Rodmakers: GrayRock Gathering 2001 was a real success, Thanks goes toall of the staff who worked so hard to make the GrayRock Gathering anenjoyable learning experience. I also want to thank all of the Rodmakers who were so helpful and gave freely their advice and rodmaking tips. Rodmaking Gatherings are a souce of inspiration to make rods and a real opportunity to make lasting friendships, both of which I could not make the next rodwithout. See everyone at the Southern Rodmakers Gathering ! Best Regards ! Bill Campbell :e-mail : ccgglobal@aol.com from homes-sold@home.com Sun Jun 24 22:09:46 2001 f5P39jZ22188 femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:09:39 -0700 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Excess ferrule glue Harry, I think Ted has a point, just wipe off the excess before binding. Youeven have time to bind and un-bind and wipe off and bind again if you wish.As I understand it, the purpose of the serration's is to distribute theabrupt stresses where the ferrule and bamboo meet over a wider area. AsMartha would say "This is a good thing." The natural setup of the epoxy,provided there is not an excessive amount, is going to round off thetransition of the epoxy and ferrule, so why scrape and possibly cause sharpedges that may damage the winding? ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Excess ferrule glue Harry, I wipe the excess glue off the ferrules before binding them. Afterthe epoxy is dried, I lightly scrape any excess glue that may have squeezedout in binding, then lightly polish with steel wool by stroking in onedirection. I make no attempt to remove any epoxy that is in the ferruleslits. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Jun 24 23:10:35 2001 f5P4AZZ23019 Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:10:30 -0700 Subject: Re: Excess ferrule glue Ted,I can see your point, especially with a glue that dries hard as glass likemost epoxies. But using the Urethane Bond, the glue remains somewhatrubberyand flexible, never really getting hard. Also, if you don't scrape it out,then it will discolor the wraps you put over the ferrules. (Ask me how Ilearned that one) When wet, Urethane Bond can be cleaned up with mineralspirits -- perhaps the mineral spirits in the varnish thins the glue justenough to let it mess things up??? Harry Ted wrote: Harry, I wipe the excess glue off the ferrules before binding them. Afterthe epoxy is dried, I lightly scrape any excess glue that may have squeezedout in binding, then lightly polish with steel wool by stroking in onedirection. I make no attempt to remove any epoxy that is in the ferruleslits. --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Jun 24 23:13:43 2001 f5P4DgZ23212 Subject: Re: Excess ferrule glue Don,To give a stupid answer to a good question, the reason I scrape all thatstuff out is that I usually wrap the ferrules in white silk, which goes clearwhen varnished. The glue between the serrations is plainly visible, and uglyasmy brother's wife... :-)Not to mention the problems I mentioned in my reply to Ted. Thanks,HarryDon Schneider wrote: The natural setup of the epoxy, provided there is not an excessive amount,isgoing to round off the transition of the epoxy and ferrule, so why scrapeandpossibly cause sharp edges that may damage the winding? --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from danny.twang@pd.no Mon Jun 25 02:21:36 2001 f5P7LYZ25741 +0200 +0200 Subject: Spinning Rod taper This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi ListAnyone having a 12`6" taper for 30-100g lures?TIAdanny Hi ListAnyone having a 12`6" taper for 30-100g = lures?TIAdanny from sniderja@email.uc.edu Mon Jun 25 07:36:49 2001 f5PCanZ28410 Subject: 2/3 wt tapers Sorry, for piggy-backing on Danny's message, but have been havingproblems ingetting a message out. After almost 40 years of being away from seriousbluegill fishing, I have recently rediscovered this avenue and have becometotally enamored with it--especially when they run 9-11", no one else on theponds, etc. Would like to make a bamboo rod for the latter for next year,preferably in the 2/3 wt range. I have great respect for St. Wayne'stapers,and he lists a 7'9" 2/3 wt that looks promising. Has anyone had anyexperience with this taper? Other possible suggestions you might be willingto share? TIA Jerry Snider from bob@downandacross.com Mon Jun 25 08:41:18 2001 f5PDfHZ00709 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: 2/3 wt tapers --=====================_49742439==_.ALT Jerry:You really cannot beat the light weight rods by Bob Nunley. His small tapers are awesome.Bob At 08:39 AM 6/25/2001 -0400, Jerry Snider wrote: Sorry, for piggy-backing on Danny's message, but have been having problems ingetting a message out. After almost 40 years of being away fromseriousbluegill fishing, I have recently rediscovered this avenue and have becometotally enamored with it--especially when they run 9-11", no one else on theponds, etc. Would like to make a bamboo rod for the latter for next year,preferably in the 2/3 wt range. I have great respect for St. Wayne's tapers,and he lists a 7'9" 2/3 wt that looks promising. Has anyone had anyexperience with this taper? Other possible suggestions you might be willingto share? TIA Jerry Snider Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com716.836.8297-- =====================_49742439==_.ALT Jerry:You really cannot beat the light weight rods by Bob Nunley. His smalltapers are awesome.BobAt 08:39 AM 6/25/2001 -0400, Jerry Snider wrote: problems in serious become one else on the year, tapers, any might be willing Jerry Snider Bob Maulucci> from flyfish@defnet.com MonJun 25 09:23:26 2001 f5PENPZ02230 Subject: Greyrock This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Just got back from Greyrock. What a great time!Being my first time to this event , I just had to say and fun to hang out with people. Too many to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for being a rodmaker was thinning or =no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha ha ha!Tony Miller Just got back from Greyrock. What a = time!Being my first time to this event , I = saysomething about it. There were a alotof = talented = list.I learned one of the prerequisites for = rodmaker was thinning or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha ha =ha!Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from dannyt@frisurf.no Mon Jun 25 09:26:00 2001 f5PEPxZ02486 +0200 +0200 Subject: Re: Greyrock This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:22 PMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. What a great time!Being my first time to this event , I just had to say and fun to hang out with people. Too many to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for being a rodmaker was thinning =or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha ha ha!Tony Miller ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 =4:22 PMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. What a= time!Being my first time to this event , I = to saysomething about it. There were a alot= talented = to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for= ha!Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from dannyt@frisurf.no Mon Jun 25 09:27:43 2001 f5PERgZ02782 +0200 +0200 Subject: Re: Greyrock This is a multi-part message in MIME format. No ponytails???danny Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:22 PMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. What a great time!Being my first time to this event , I just had to say and fun to hang out with people. Too many to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for being a rodmaker was thinning =or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha ha ha!Tony Miller No ponytails???danny ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 =4:22 PMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. What a= time!Being my first time to this event , I = to saysomething about it. There were a alot= talented = to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for= ha!Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Jun 25 09:39:16 2001 f5PEdGZ03471 Subject: Re: Greyrock This is a multi-part message in MIME format. A few ponytails. But I didn't see under the hats. LOLTony Miller A few ponytails. But I didn't see under= LOLTony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from dryfly@erols.com Mon Jun 25 10:19:26 2001 f5PFJPZ05216 ([208.58.202.242] helo=erols.com) Subject: Grayrock Were there any new equipment debuts or demonstrations made at Grayrockthat us low life, working, non-attenders missed but should know about? Was there a demonstration of the Morgan Handmill? If so, I'd like tohear from any previous skeptics, I'm considering one and would like tohear the opinions. Thanks and sorry I missed it.Bob from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Jun 25 10:29:20 2001 f5PFTJZ05689 Subject: Re:Grayrock This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I arrived Fri.. night so I only was able to attend Saturdays =demonstrations. I didn't get to see the hand mill. But I saw an =interesting demo on Bark Grips. Tony Miller I arrived Fri.. night so I only was able = Saturdays demonstrations. I didn't get to see the hand mill. But I saw = interesting demo on Bark Grips.As an alternative to Cork or Rattan. = Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Jun 25 10:35:05 2001 f5PFZ3Z06040 Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:34:07 -0700 Subject: Re: Greyrock --------------1F7F8B3EA84C21325FEA5076 Tony Miller wrote: I learned one of the prerequisites for being a rodmakerwas thinning or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha ha ha! Guess it's a good thing I couldn't go.... Since I have afull head of hair, there's no way I would have fit in! :-) Deep in denial, and still paying full price for my monthlyhaircuts...Harry[Working the crowd] --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------1F7F8B3EA84C21325FEA5076 --------------2AF23B2DFEFF3D1B50F334D3 I learned one of theprerequisites ha ha! Deep in denial, and still paying full price for my monthly haircuts...Harry> from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Mon Jun 25 12:27:02 2001 f5PHR1Z10256 Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:26:48 -0700 HTTP; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:26:48 GMT Subject: Jim Christensen FILETIME=[03A73870:01C0FD9C] Would Jim Christensen from Vermont please E-mail me. I lost your E-mail address.Jim Bu- reau_________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Jun 25 13:25:15 2001 f5PIPFZ12463 f5PIPAb22204 Subject: Re: Greyrock I was almost blinded by a flash when the photocame up. You don't suppose it might be the brightspot ahead of the hair line.LOL Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Harry Boyd wrote: Tony Miller wrote: I learned one of the prerequisites for being arodmaker was thinning or no hair LOL. So I fitright in. ha ha ha! Guess it's a good thing I couldn't go....Since I have a full head of hair, there's no wayI would have fit in! :-) Deep in denial, and still paying full price formy monthly haircuts...Harry[Working the crowd] --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from Mark_Dyba@hotmail.com Mon Jun 25 14:04:59 2001 f5PJ4wZ14183 Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:04:41 -0700 Subject: Greyrock FILETIME=[B012DB20:01C0FDA9] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. How was the fishing?Mark How was the fishing?Mark from bob@downandacross.com Mon Jun 25 14:25:59 2001 f5PJPvZ16338 Subject: Re: Greyrock --=====================_70422330==_.ALT A shaved head and a bald head are not the same! At 10:22 AM 6/25/2001 -0400, Tony Miller wrote:Just got back from Greyrock. What a great time!Being my first time to this event , I just had to saysomething about it. There were a alot of very talentedand fun to hang out with people. Too many to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for being a rodmaker was thinning or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha ha ha!Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com716.836.8297-- =====================_70422330==_.ALT A shaved head and a bald head are not the same! At 10:22 AM 6/25/2001 - 0400, Tony Miller wrote:Just gotback from Greyrock. What a great time!Being my first time to this event , I just hadto saysomething about it. There were a alot of verytalented and fun to hang out with people. Too many tolist.I learned one of the prerequisites for being arodmaker was thinning or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha haha!Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com716.836.8297 --=====================_70422330==_.ALT-- from caneman@clnk.com Mon Jun 25 15:21:20 2001 f5PKLKZ01670 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Have to agree with Allen on the URAC. I've glued every rod I have ever madewith URAC and never a delam. I've twisted a few blanks to splinters in thelathe (we won't discuss how many) but the glue joint never fails. It's thebamboo between the seams that comes apart.I also never heat treat the URAC. I let it set in string for 3 daysbefore I take it out and have never had a problem with it.As for the ferrules. I tried several different epoxies over the pastyears and the best, most failsafe method I've used to date is to pin theferrules. Doesn't matter what you use then, as long as you have a goodbamboo to metal fit and the pin in place... the ferrules aren't goinganywhere.Just got back from Grayrock! A great time had by all. Only problem isthat it didn't last long enough. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy I have used URAC for about 600 rods and have not had a delam. All butabout75 of those have been air cured. The 75 were heat set. I still heat settheglue if I need a blank done in a hurry otherwise I let it air cure(70*+)for36 hours. I tried epoxy on the ferrules and had some failures with both5minand 2ton and the Garrison mix that is in his book. Some failures not beingacceptable I now use ferrule cement and a pin. J. Zimney has written thatURAC needs some moisture in the cane to set up properly and I havewonderedif the current trend toward heated and chemical dry boxes that attempt tokeep the cane absolutely dry might have something to do with it. Wayne C.being the initial proponent of the dry boxes I note that he uses epoxythatwould not be affected by the ultra dry cane. Perhaps an unhappy mixing ofmethods? The ferrule problem with epoxy has me baffled as I know somethathave had no problem with it but it gave me nothing but grief. I have beenaccused of not preparing the ferrules properly but I can assue you theywereprepped to list standards.A.J. From: "Douglas Losey" CC: Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min EpoxyDate: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:46:48 -0400 Ralph,As I am ready to glue up my first blank you're response to Tony re: URACdelaminations has not exactly inspired a great deal of confidence. Thethreebooks which amount to my apprenticeship in rodmaking do not mentionSIG,Epon, or Titebond II, could you give me more info on these adhesives...? thanks,losey----- Original Message -----From: "Ralph W Moon" Cc: Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 2:08 PMSubject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Tony Adhesives are fickle. I have had to catastrophicdelaminations with URAC, and refuse to even look at it anymore, but I see a number of first rate rod makers using it,including I think, Bob Nunley. I have seen a delaminationof resorcinol, although I personally have not had anyproblems, (One of my favorites) I have seen a adelamination with SIG Epoxy and one with Rod builders epoxy,but never any with Epon heat setting epoxy. I have not seenany failures with Titebond II. I have had ferrule failureswith every epoxy I have used, and I can assure you I payattention to the fitting and preparation of my ferrules. Ihave never had a failure with Urethane Bond. It is my ownunsubstantiated opinion that epoxies are not suitable asferrule cement since they dry to had and temperature changedifferentials between metal and wood will break the bond,despite roughing or not roughingRalph P. S. I might add that devcon has given me more troublethan any other. To each his own I guess if you are using itsuccessfully. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from caneman@clnk.com Mon Jun 25 15:48:15 2001 f5PKmEZ09368 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Greyrock This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Sorry Danny. Jeff Wagner was the only bearer of ponytails among the =rodmakers. I cut mine off about 3 months ago! Clean Cut Bob! -----------------------------------------------No ponytails??? danny Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:22 PMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. What a great time!Being my first time to this event , I just had to say and fun to hang out with people. Too many to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for being a rodmaker was thinning =or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha ha ha!Tony Miller = ago! Clean Cut Bob! ----------------------------------------------- ponytails??? danny ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 = PMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. Whata = time!Being my first time to this event , = to saysomething about it. There were a = talented and fun to hang out = to list.I learned one of the prerequisites = ha!Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from dannyt@frisurf.no Mon Jun 25 15:50:10 2001 f5PKo9Z09991 Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:50:08 +0200 Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:50:07 +0200 Subject: Re: Greyrock This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Did You cut it or was it cought in the lath:-? danny Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 10:44 PMSubject: Re: Greyrock Sorry Danny. Jeff Wagner was the only bearer of ponytails among the =rodmakers. I cut mine off about 3 months ago! Clean Cut Bob! -----------------------------------------------No ponytails??? danny Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:22 PMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. What a great time!Being my first time to this event , I just had to say and fun to hang out with people. Too many to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for being a rodmaker was =thinning or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha ha ha!Tony Miller Did You cut it or was it cought in lath:-? danny ----- Original Message ----- Bob =Nunley Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 = PMSubject: Re: Greyrock bearer = ago! Clean Cut Bob! ----------------------------------------------- ponytails??? danny ----- Original Message ----- = Miller Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 = PMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. What= time!Being my first time to this event = had to saysomething about it. There were a = very talented and fun to hang out = many to list.I learned one of the prerequisites = ha!Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= = from caneman@clnk.com Mon Jun 25 15:56:06 2001 f5PKu5Z11687 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) "dannyt" Subject: Re: Greyrock This is a multi-part message in MIME format. LOL Actually cut it! Believe it or not, for once I showed up at a =rodmakers gathering, show, seminar, whatever... with NO FRESH WOUNDS!!!! =Was pretty proud of myself. Only fell down once and that was getting =out of the river in the silt! (Shaeffer helped me up before I sank to =china) Later,BobR.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:58 PMSubject: Re: Greyrock Did You cut it or was it cought in the lath:-? danny Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 10:44 PMSubject: Re: Greyrock Sorry Danny. Jeff Wagner was the only bearer of ponytails among the =rodmakers. I cut mine off about 3 months ago! Clean Cut Bob! -----------------------------------------------No ponytails??? danny Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:22 PMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. What a great time!Being my first time to this event , I just had to say and fun to hang out with people. Too many to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for being a rodmaker was =thinning or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha ha ha!Tony Miller showed up at a rodmakers gathering, show, seminar, whatever... with NO = was getting out of the river in the silt! (Shaeffer helped me up before = to china) Later,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- dannyt Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 =3:58 PMSubject: Re: Greyrock Did You cut it or was it cought in = lath:-? danny ----- Original Message ----- Bob = Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 = PMSubject: Re: Greyrock ago! Clean Cut Bob! ----------------------------------------------- ponytails??? danny ----- Original Message ----- = Miller Sent: Monday, June 25, = PMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. = time!Being my first time to this = had to saysomething about it. There were a= very talented and fun to hang out = many to list.I learned one of the = being a rodmaker was thinning or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. = ha!Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= = from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Mon Jun 25 16:26:25 2001 f5PLQOZ20061 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Thanks all for responding...i used the URAC, actually CR585 from GoldenWitch,....I gotta tell ya tho.....gluing up the first rod is almost enoughto go back to building graphite rods...it probably looked to an untrainedeye an awful lot like clown school during the process.....but it is out ofthe binds and sanded down and has a seal coat of tung oil...and it does'ntlook to bad.... i f I make it to next years Gathering..do I have to cut my pony tail...? losey...----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Have to agree with Allen on the URAC. I've glued every rod I have evermadewith URAC and never a delam. I've twisted a few blanks to splinters inthelathe (we won't discuss how many) but the glue joint never fails. It'sthebamboo between the seams that comes apart.I also never heat treat the URAC. I let it set in string for 3 daysbefore I take it out and have never had a problem with it.As for the ferrules. I tried several different epoxies over the pastyears and the best, most failsafe method I've used to date is to pin theferrules. Doesn't matter what you use then, as long as you have a goodbamboo to metal fit and the pin in place... the ferrules aren't goinganywhere.Just got back from Grayrock! A great time had by all. Only problemisthat it didn't last long enough. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: "Allen Thramer" Cc: Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 3:15 PMSubject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy I have used URAC for about 600 rods and have not had a delam. All butabout75 of those have been air cured. The 75 were heat set. I still heat settheglue if I need a blank done in a hurry otherwise I let it air cure(70*+)for36 hours. I tried epoxy on the ferrules and had some failures with both5minand 2ton and the Garrison mix that is in his book. Some failures notbeingacceptable I now use ferrule cement and a pin. J. Zimney has writtenthatURAC needs some moisture in the cane to set up properly and I havewonderedif the current trend toward heated and chemical dry boxes that attempttokeep the cane absolutely dry might have something to do with it. WayneC.being the initial proponent of the dry boxes I note that he uses epoxythatwould not be affected by the ultra dry cane. Perhaps an unhappy mixingofmethods? The ferrule problem with epoxy has me baffled as I know somethathave had no problem with it but it gave me nothing but grief. I havebeenaccused of not preparing the ferrules properly but I can assue you theywereprepped to list standards.A.J. From: "Douglas Losey" CC: Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min EpoxyDate: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:46:48 -0400 Ralph,As I am ready to glue up my first blank you're response to Tony re:URACdelaminations has not exactly inspired a great deal of confidence. Thethreebooks which amount to my apprenticeship in rodmaking do not mentionSIG,Epon, or Titebond II, could you give me more info on theseadhesives...? thanks,losey----- Original Message -----From: "Ralph W Moon" Cc: Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 2:08 PMSubject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Tony Adhesives are fickle. I have had to catastrophicdelaminations with URAC, and refuse to even look at it anymore, but I see a number of first rate rod makers using it,including I think, Bob Nunley. I have seen a delaminationof resorcinol, although I personally have not had anyproblems, (One of my favorites) I have seen a adelamination with SIG Epoxy and one with Rod builders epoxy,but never any with Epon heat setting epoxy. I have not seenany failures with Titebond II. I have had ferrule failureswith every epoxy I have used, and I can assure you I payattention to the fitting and preparation of my ferrules. Ihave never had a failure with Urethane Bond. It is my ownunsubstantiated opinion that epoxies are not suitable asferrule cement since they dry to had and temperature changedifferentials between metal and wood will break the bond,despite roughing or not roughingRalph P. S. I might add that devcon has given me more troublethan any other. To each his own I guess if you are using itsuccessfully. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from thogan@rochester.rr.com Mon Jun 25 17:00:30 2001 f5PM0TZ29146 f5PLx8f03129 Subject: Coats of Varnish What's the consensus on the number of coats of varnish/poly that oneshoulduse? from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Mon Jun 25 17:05:06 2001 f5PM55Z00454 Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:04:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Greyrock This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Tony, Some wear hats and the rest of us just play the cards we're dealt! :^) I'll second your comments, one of the finest groups of people that I =have ever come across. Just got back home to NC and the two days spent =in Grayling were well worth the 4 days spent behind the wheel. See you guys again at SRG. RegardsTim Wilhelm Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 10:22 AMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. What a great time!Being my first time to this event , I just had to say and fun to hang out with people. Too many to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for being a rodmaker was thinning =or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha ha ha!Tony Miller Tony, us = I'll second your comments, one of the = wheel. See you guys again atSRG. RegardsTim Wilhelm ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 = AMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. What a= time!Being my first time to this event , I = to saysomething about it. There were a alot= talented = to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for= ha!Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Jun 25 17:06:26 2001 f5PM6PZ00862 Subject: Don't cut the pony tail! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Doug don't cut the pony tail yet.As long as you keep building rods, the hair will naturally fall out LOLTony Miller P.S. glad to hear your rod came out OK! Doug don't cut the pony tail =yet.As long as you keep building rods, the = naturally fall out LOLTony Millerwww.homestead.com/= OK! from jteft@frontiernet.net Mon Jun 25 18:25:32 2001 f5PNPVZ16516 Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:24:51 -0400 claiming to be "oemcomputer" 2001 Subject: Mike "Doc' Shaffer This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Everyone,Just finished talking to Cherie Mike 'Doc' Shaffer's wife. Mike was =discharged from the hospital on Saturday Jun 23, 2001. I imagine the =poor lady who is currently in his room is going bonkers over the strange =men calling looking for him.Doc is staying at his mothers (kids always return home)for the time =being as he can not be more than 10 miles from the hospital. Cherie said =she would try and get an email out on thursday with an update. Till then =he is doing fine and is out.Jim Tefft Everyone,Just finished talking to Cherie Mike 'Doc' Shaffer's = the poor lady who is currently in his room is going bonkers over the = calling looking for him.Doc is staying at his mothers (kids always return = time being as he can not be more than 10 miles from the hospital. Cherie = she would try and get an email out on thursday with an update. Till then = doing fine and is out.Jim Tefft from caneman@clnk.com Mon Jun 25 19:03:27 2001 f5Q03QZ24700 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Nah, I'll probably grow mine back before then anyways! *S* i f I make it to next years Gathering..do I have to cut my pony tail...? losey... from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Jun 25 19:35:53 2001 f5Q0ZrZ01608 f5Q0Zpb02430 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy now pony tails Bob,How are we going to know you without a pony tail.I will have to learn to read names on name tags.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Bob Nunley wrote: Nah, I'll probably grow mine back before then anyways! *S* i f I make it to next years Gathering..do I have to cut my pony tail...? losey... from Troutgetter@aol.com Mon Jun 25 20:14:53 2001 f5Q1EqZ09971 Subject: Re: 2/3 wt tapers --part1_108.1c10168.28693bde_boundary In a message dated 6/25/2001 5:37:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sniderja@email.uc.edu writes: Would like to make a bamboo rod for the latter for next year,preferably in the 2/3 wt range. I have great respect for St. Wayne's tapers,and he lists a 7'9" 2/3 wt that looks promising. Has anyone had anyexperience with this taper? Jerry,I have built quite a few of Wayne's 7'9" 2/3. I LOVE that rod! The rod's I have built require at least 15' of line out the tip before it loads well, but has good reach and mends line nicely. I use on small streams mostly and the Lower Owen's and Hot Creek are about as big as it gets for me and the rod works well for me there. Mike in sunny So Cal --part1_108.1c10168.28693bde_boundary In a message dated6/25/2001 5:37:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sniderja@email.uc.edu writes: Would like tomake a bamboo rod for the latter for next year, Wayne's tapers, any Jerry,I have built quite a few of Wayne's 7'9" 2/3. I LOVE that rod! The rod's I have built require at least 15' of line out the tip before it loads well, but has good reach and mends line nicely. I use on small streams mostly andthe Lower Owen's and Hot Creek are about as big as it gets for me and therod works well for me there. Mike in sunny So Cal --part1_108.1c10168.28693bde_boundary-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Jun 25 20:25:10 2001 f5Q1PAZ11903 Subject: Re: Greyrock --part1_e4.16e216ac.28693e69_boundary Yeh, he looked respectable too. Nunley that is.Bret --part1_e4.16e216ac.28693e69_boundary Yeh, he looked respectable too. Nunley that is.Bret --part1_e4.16e216ac.28693e69_boundary-- from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Mon Jun 25 20:30:37 2001 f5Q1UaZ13183 claiming to be "oemcomputer" 2001 Subject: Re: Greyrock This is a multi-part message in MIME format. God made a few perfect heads, then covered the rest with hair... Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 6:02 PMSubject: Re: Greyrock Tony, Some wear hats and the rest of us just play the cards we're dealt! =:^) I'll second your comments, one of the finest groups of people that I =have ever come across. Just got back home to NC and the two days spent =in Grayling were well worth the 4 days spent behind the wheel. See you guys again at SRG. RegardsTim Wilhelm Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 10:22 AMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. What a great time!Being my first time to this event , I just had to say and fun to hang out with people. Too many to list.I learned one of the prerequisites for being a rodmaker was thinning =or no hair LOL. So I fit right in. ha ha ha!Tony Miller God made a few perfect heads, then covered the rest= hair... ----- Original Message ----- Tim Wilhelm Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 =6:02 PMSubject: Re: Greyrock Tony, = I'll second your comments, one of the= and the two days spent in Grayling were well worth the 4 days spent = wheel. See you guys again at =SRG. RegardsTim Wilhelm ----- Original Message ----- =Sent: Monday, June 25,2001 = AMSubject: Greyrock Just got back from Greyrock. Whata = time!Being my first time to this event , = to saysomething about it. There were a = talented and fun to hang out = to list.I learned one of the prerequisites = ha!Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Mon Jun 25 20:33:54 2001 f5Q1XrZ13988 Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:33:21 -0400 claiming to be "oemcomputer" 2001 Subject: Re: Coats of Varnish Taylor, I think a better question would be: What is the optimum thickness of finishon a rod? I would say a couple thousanths. Tom AusfeldRochester, NY. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Coats of Varnish What's the consensus on the number of coats of varnish/poly that oneshoulduse? from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Jun 25 20:35:45 2001 f5Q1ZiZ14510 Subject: Re: Greyrock --part1_12e.81e9a0.286940e6_boundary Greyrock was great as all have said. Met some guys who I only knew from on the list and renewed some old acquaintances. John Zimny was there and didan incredible talk on finishes and Jeff Wagner gave a great talk on ferrules. I finish that really looked nice and is quick. For all who missed you missed a fantastic time and fellowship. I hope all who did attend made it home with no mishaps, especially B Nunley as we all know he is just a little accident prone.OH YEH cast some great rods too, Bob Maulucci had a quad that would punch out line like it was shot from a gun, and Tony Miller had a quad that really layed out as accurate a cast as anyone could want. Bob Nunley's rods were incredible as well, cast too many others to comment on but these really stuck out for me.Bret (with a sore back) TM knows why. --part1_12e.81e9a0.286940e6_boundary knew from on there and did an incredible talk on finishes and Jeff Wagner gave a great talk on automotive missed a home with no mishaps, especially B Nunley as we all know he is just a little accident prone. too, Bob Maulucci had a quad that would punch out line like it was shot from a gun, and Tony Miller had a quadthat Nunley's rods were incredible as well, cast too many others to comment on but thesereally stuck out for me.Bret (with a sore back) TM knows why. --part1_12e.81e9a0.286940e6_boundary-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Jun 25 20:37:12 2001 f5Q1bBZ14721 Subject: Re: 2/3 wt tapers rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu --part1_d8.82c98fe.2869413f_boundary If you want a 5 footer try Bob Nunley's 5,' 2 wght.Bret --part1_d8.82c98fe.2869413f_boundary If you want a 5 footer try Bob Nunley's 5,' 2 wght.Bret --part1_d8.82c98fe.2869413f_boundary-- from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Mon Jun 25 20:40:45 2001 f5Q1ehZ15540 Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:40:07 -0400 claiming to be "oemcomputer" 2001 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy and ferrule pinning Bob Nunley wrote:I've twisted a few blanks to splinters in thelathe (we won't discuss how many) I thought I was the only one who did that, the words that came out of mymouth even surprised me. Regarding pinning, don't the majority of ferrule failures occur whendisassembling the rod?? If so, doesn't pinning just make the repair thatmuch more difficult? Regards, Tom Ausfeld from GRNMTRODS@aol.com Mon Jun 25 21:12:53 2001 f5Q2CqZ22096 Subject: Hair, Long ,beautiful hair --part1_30.16c1924e.2869499a_boundary Gentlemen, Maybe it's the chemicals that we use to build these long, beautiful rods that causes a thinning effect on our hair......... Jim --part1_30.16c1924e.2869499a_boundary Gentlemen, Maybe it's the chemicals that we use to build these long, beautiful rodsthat causes a thinning effect on our hair......... Jim --part1_30.16c1924e.2869499a_boundary-- from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Jun 25 23:14:18 2001 f5Q4EHZ14362 VAA08136 Subject: Re: Hair, Long ,beautiful hair This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hair is like Gold, Those who lack it try to hoard it as much as possible ie:comb overs Those who have it spend it freely ie: Flat tops and crew cuts Life is funny that way Adam Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 7:12 PMSubject: Hair, Long ,beautiful hair Maybe it's the chemicals that we use to build these long, beautiful = Hair is like Gold, Those who lack it try to hoard it as = possible ie:comb overs Those who have it spend it freely ie: = crew cuts Life is funny that way Adam ----- Original Message ----- GRNMTRODS@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 =7:12 PMSubject: Hair, Long ,beautiful =hair Maybe it's the chemicals that we use to build these long, = rods that causes a thinning effect on our hair......... = from dpeaston@wzrd.com Tue Jun 26 06:00:07 2001 f5QB06Z18499 Subject: Grayrock Many thanks to all those involved in Grayrock 2001(Mike B., Wayne C.,Troutbums, Fisheads and the many rod makers who demonstrated, explainedandchallenged us. Two nearly full days of "hands on" with Wayne ( sorry aboutthose nicks in your forms)pushed me over the edge. I am splitting for myfirst rod this weekend. -Doug ____________(____________|===========================o/ 0 \ / | \__/ \ / Douglas Easton | \ / |\____/ Dpeaston@wzrd.com | |* from bob@downandacross.com Tue Jun 26 07:39:27 2001 f5QCdQZ19554 Subject: Re: Grayrock Great Doug. Let me know if you need any tools. Are you going to build a Granger? I bet you are. Thanks for letting me cast the Aristocrat. I would never have known how nice the Grangers were. They are great.Bob At 06:58 AM 6/26/2001 -0400, Douglas P. Easton wrote: Many thanks to all those involved in Grayrock 2001(Mike B., Wayne C.,Troutbums, Fisheads and the many rod makers who demonstrated,explained andchallenged us. Two nearly full days of "hands on" with Wayne ( sorry aboutthose nicks in your forms)pushed me over the edge. I am splitting for myfirst rod this weekend. -Doug ____________(____________|===========================o/ 0 \ / |\__/ \ / Douglas Easton |\ / |\____/ Dpeaston@wzrd.com ||* from homeydklown@att.net Tue Jun 26 07:55:32 2001 f5QCtWZ20002 ;Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:55:27 +0000 Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:55:26 +0000 Subject: OT, Canada weather Hi folks, Sorry to use up bandwidth for this, but do any of our Canadian friends know of a website where I can get local weather information for Newboro, Ontario? I'll be driving up there late Thursday night for a Friday morning arrival and would like to know what I'm in for when I get there. My friends and I will be fishing on Newboro Lake for pike and bass, mostly with a Dawn Holbrook rod that I didn't have completed in time for last year's trip. I hope to hang a few toothy critters on it this year. I'll let y'all know how we do. Thanks, Dennis from bob@downandacross.com Tue Jun 26 08:08:32 2001 f5QD8VZ20372 Subject: Re: OT, Canada weather HI Dennis:I usually use weather.com or weatherunderground.com, but I could not find newboro in either. It will give Canada listings, but you may need to find a closer "bigger" city.Best regards,Bob At 12:55 PM 6/26/2001 +0000, homeydklown@att.net wrote:Hi folks, Sorry to use up bandwidth for this, but do any of ourCanadian friends know of a website where I can get localweather information for Newboro, Ontario? I'll bedriving up there late Thursday night for a Fridaymorning arrival and would like to know what I'm in forwhen I get there. My friends and I will be fishing onNewboro Lake for pike and bass, mostly with a DawnHolbrook rod that I didn't have completed in time forlast year's trip. I hope to hang a few toothy critterson it this year. I'll let y'all know how we do. Thanks, Dennis from dannyt@frisurf.no Tue Jun 26 08:47:24 2001 f5QDlMZ22301 Subject: Heddon This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Anyone built/cast the Heddon #50 President 8`6" # 6? I`m looking for a =rod for those huge brows in big rivers, all input is appreciated. Thanks,danny Anyone built/cast the Heddon #50 = 6? I`m looking for a rod for those huge brows in big rivers, = appreciated. Thanks,danny from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Jun 26 10:40:24 2001 f5QFeOZ27261 Subject: Re: OT, Canada weather Try for all Canadian weather reports. Theseare updated hourly and usually have a five day forecast. from homes-sold@home.com Tue Jun 26 11:08:54 2001 f5QG8rZ28540 femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com 0700 Subject: Banff, Alberta This is a multi-part message in MIME format. On my way to float fish the Bow end of this week. Any advise on flies = Don On my way to float fish the Bow end of= Any advise on flies etc. much appreciated. Don from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Jun 26 11:42:07 2001 f5QGg6Z29721 Subject: Re: Banff, Alberta This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I've fished the Bow a few times. I would wait and get the guide's =advise on flies, and fish them or use them as models for tying. = from lblove@omniglobal.net Tue Jun 26 12:13:01 2001 f5QHD0Z00827 Subject: RE: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy and ferrule pinning a few questions on pinningWhen pinning, what size of wire is used? does it vary with ferrule size? also does the pin go thru both walls of the ferrule of just one? tiaBrad -----Original Message----- Ausfeld Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy and ferrule pinning Bob Nunley wrote:I've twisted a few blanks to splinters in thelathe (we won't discuss how many) I thought I was the only one who did that, the words that came out of mymouth even surprised me. Regarding pinning, don't the majority of ferrule failures occur whendisassembling the rod?? If so, doesn't pinning just make the repair thatmuch more difficult? Regards, Tom Ausfeld from homes-sold@home.com Tue Jun 26 12:24:49 2001 f5QHOnZ01341 femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:24:43 -0700 Subject: Re: Banff, Alberta This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Thanks guys. I'm of to get some hooks since I only fish for Steelhead & =Salmon in the NW, I don't think 0/5's will work. Its going to be a long =pleasant night at the tying bench.Thanks again, Don Subject: Banff, Alberta On my way to float fish the Bow end of this week. Any advise on flies = Don Thanks guys. I'm of to get some hooks= bench.Thanks again, Don From:Don= Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:14 AMSubject: Banff, Alberta On my way to float fish the Bow end of= Any advise on flies etc. much appreciated. Don from bob@downandacross.com Tue Jun 26 14:27:33 2001 f5QJRVZ06313 , Subject: Ferrule pinning According to Jeff Wagner's excellent demo at Grayrock on ferrule mounting and pinning, he uses one size wire, and he goes through one side and out the other. The ferrules are attached with Ferrulite melt glue. The pins are placed just above the serration section on the male and the female. Listening to Jeff, I am convinced that he has thought long and hard about this, and it is the best manner possible. The wire and other things can be had through him I believe, at http://www.wagnerrods.com. Of course, there are others that have the supplies too, and I would encourage you to get them from whomever you feel most comfortable with. However, knowing thathe uses this technique, it makes sense to ask him.Best regards,Bob At 12:09 PM 6/26/2001 -0500, Bradley Love wrote:a few questions on pinningWhen pinning, what size of wireis used? does it vary with ferrule size? also does the pin go thru both walls ofthe ferrule of just one? tiaBrad from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Jun 26 14:44:37 2001 f5QJiaZ07255 , , Subject: Re: Ferrule pinning You can get nickle silver pinning wire from a jewellery equipmentwholesaler. You will also need to get the same diameter number drill. from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Jun 26 15:14:54 2001 f5QKErZ08678 Subject: Re: Ferrule pinning In years past all rods were pinned through the male slide in male ferrules. Ithink this is so to keep the pin away from the serrated end of the ferrulewhich could weaken the cane at that point thus causing a fracture. Bypinningjust below/above the serrations it would make ferrule replacement mucheasier.Marty Downandacross Rods wrote: According to Jeff Wagner's excellent demo at Grayrock on ferrulemountingand pinning, he uses one size wire, and he goes through one side and outthe other. The ferrules are attached with Ferrulite melt glue. The pins areplaced just above the serration section on the male and the female.Listening to Jeff, I am convinced that he has thought long and hard aboutthis, and it is the best manner possible. The wire and other things can behad through him I believe, at http://www.wagnerrods.com. Of course, thereare others that have the supplies too, and I would encourage you to getthem from whomever you feel most comfortable with. However, knowingthat heuses this technique, it makes sense to ask him.Best regards,Bob At 12:09 PM 6/26/2001 -0500, Bradley Love wrote:a few questions on pinningWhen pinning, what size of wireis used? does it vary with ferrule size? also does the pin go thru both walls ofthe ferrule of just one? tiaBrad from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Jun 26 15:54:36 2001 f5QKsZZ10328 Subject: Re: Ferrule pinning Ted,If other folks are as ham-fisted as I am, it might be a good idea tosuggest buying more than one drill. I've broken several trying to drillout the pins on old reel seat caps. If I remember correctly (doubtful) thestandard pinning wire is .040", and the drill bit is .039" or a #60 drill. Harry Ted wrote: You can get nickle silver pinning wire from a jewellery equipmentwholesaler. You will also need to get the same diameter number drill. --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Tue Jun 26 17:48:39 2001 f5QMmcZ13642 Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:48:32 -0400 Subject: Staggering for PHY Perfectionist I had decided my first rod would be built with the taper for theperfectionist. One of the things I had hoped to accomplish at Grayrock wasto cast and thanks to Dave Norling that got checked off the list. Looking in the information I have on the perfectionist I can't seem to findwhat type of staggering PHY used. Can someone help me out with this? BTW, I also cast someone's Payne 98 and that may well be my second rod. ThanksTim Wilhelm from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Jun 26 17:54:06 2001 f5QMs5Z13903 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Staggering for PHY Perfectionist Tim, I just pulled out my PHY built "Midge" and the nodes are staggered 2/2.Marty Tim Wilhelm wrote: I had decided my first rod would be built with the taper for theperfectionist. One of the things I had hoped to accomplish at Grayrock wasto cast and thanks to Dave Norling that got checked off the list. Looking in the information I have on the perfectionist I can't seem to findwhat type of staggering PHY used. Can someone help me out with this? BTW, I also cast someone's Payne 98 and that may well be my second rod. ThanksTim Wilhelm from jojo@ipa.net Tue Jun 26 18:23:35 2001 f5QNNZZ14648 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy now pony tails Tony, Just because Bob made it up to Grayrock sans scars does not mean he willremain scar-free. You'll know him by the multiple contusions andlacerations. M-D Bob,How are we going to know you without a pony tail.I will have to learn to read names on name tags.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Bob Nunley wrote: Nah, I'll probably grow mine back before then anyways! *S* i f I make it to next years Gathering..do I have to cut my ponytail...? losey... from flytyr@southshore.com Tue Jun 26 18:50:26 2001 f5QNoQZ15477 f5QNoPA17829 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy now pony tails Had not thought about that. Have to keep in in mind. Come to think about it,I have not seen Bob without a band aid on his face or head. Of course, Ionly see him a few times a year.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Jojo DeLancier wrote: Tony, Just because Bob made it up to Grayrock sans scars does not mean he willremain scar-free. You'll know him by the multiple contusions andlacerations. M-DFrom: "Tony Spezio" Bob,How are we going to know you without a pony tail.I will have to learn to read names on name tags.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Bob Nunley wrote: Nah, I'll probably grow mine back before then anyways! *S* i f I make it to next years Gathering..do I have to cut my ponytail...? losey... from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Tue Jun 26 19:06:25 2001 f5R06OZ15805 pri.pacificare.com 2001 00:08:29 UT (Tumbleweed ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:06:17 -0700 Subject: Transparent PVC Pipe http://www.mcmaster.comSearch for "transparent pipe". They have both Schedule 40 and Schedule 80.Schedule 80 would be a bit of overkill for a drip tank though.Haven't used it myself, just saw it as I searched for a pipe threader.Darryl This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from HomeyDKlown@att.net Tue Jun 26 19:10:51 2001 f5R0AoZ16011 +0000 Subject: RE: OT, Canada weather Thanks to everyone who responded. It looks as though I'll be facing typicalfishing conditions, partly cloudy, chance of rain, not at work, loving everyminute of it! Thanks again, Dennis -----Original Message----- homeydklown@att.net Subject: OT, Canada weather Hi folks, Sorry to use up bandwidth for this, but do any of ourCanadian friends know of a website where I can get localweather information for Newboro, Ontario? I'll bedriving up there late Thursday night for a Fridaymorning arrival and would like to know what I'm in forwhen I get there. My friends and I will be fishing onNewboro Lake for pike and bass, mostly with a DawnHolbrook rod that I didn't have completed in time forlast year's trip. I hope to hang a few toothy critterson it this year. I'll let y'all know how we do. Thanks, Dennis from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 26 19:58:32 2001 f5R0wWZ16892 Subject: Re: Hair, Long ,beautiful hair The Lord is goodThe Lord is fairTo some he gave brainsTo the others he gave hair Best regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Adam Vigil wrote: Hair is like Gold, Those who lack it try to hoard it as much as possible ie:comb overs Those who have it spend it freely ie: Flat tops and crew cuts Life is funny that way Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: GRNMTRODS@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 7:12 PMSubject: Hair, Long ,beautiful hairGentlemen, Maybe it's the chemicals that we use to build these long, beautiful rodsthat causes a thinning effect on our hair......... Jim from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 20:47:59 2001 f5R1lwZ17686 2001 18:47:58 PDT What is the oldest Polyurethane finish out there? Bythat, I mean how long is the longest anyone has fisheda rod with a Polyurethane finish? I got my hands on arod, not long ago that had obviously been finishedwith Poly, probably not a great grade of Poly but Polynone-the-less. It had grown brittle and didn't takemuch to take it off. from the looks of things it wasprobably on the rod 10 to 15 years. Just curious toknow if anyone has done any studies on the longevityof Polyurethane, is it going to last at least as longas a good Spar, 30-40 years? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Wed Jun 27 00:12:48 2001 f5R5ClZ21297 Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:12:39 +0100 Subject: Re: The oldest 'Poly' rod I have is from the late sixties and is still goingstrong ........ Bill Walters wrote: What is the oldest Polyurethane finish out there? Bythat, I mean how long is the longest anyone has fisheda rod with a Polyurethane finish? I got my hands on arod, not long ago that had obviously been finishedwith Poly, probably not a great grade of Poly but Polynone-the-less. It had grown brittle and didn't takemuch to take it off. from the looks of things it wasprobably on the rod 10 to 15 years. Just curious toknow if anyone has done any studies on the longevityof Polyurethane, is it going to last at least as longas a good Spar, 30-40 years? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from ajthramer@hotmail.com Wed Jun 27 01:30:10 2001 f5R6U9Z22482 Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:29:56 -0700 Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:29:56 GMT Subject: pinning & wire FILETIME=[955162A0:01C0FED2] The standard wire is 20 gauge about .039. I have used 22g for the last 5 years or so and have used 24g on #10 and smaller tip ferrules. Future restorers will no doubt take my name in vain :) I started in the late 80's pinning just above the serrations but stopped for reasons already mentioned and now pin through the male slide on swiss ferrules and just below the slide on leonard ferrules to lock the two pieces of tubing together, no I haven't had any problems but it is free insurance. I pin the two parts of the female swiss ferrule together for the same reasonA.J._________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from harms1@pa.net Wed Jun 27 06:08:42 2001 f5RB8fZ24453 Subject: Re: Bill, I built my first rod in 1974 and used polyurethane finish (Minwax, HighGloss). The rod is a 7 1/2 foot, two-piece for a 5 weight line.Miraculously, the rod turned out to be a good one, so I have been using itquite regularly ever since. The finish is scuffed a little here and there,but not because of any failure in the finish itself. Otherwise, it stillappears to be in excellent condition. I have never used anything but polyurethane since, although I have switchedback and forth among several products--preferring, I guess, the Minwax,although I'm not quite sure why. Also, I have never applied the finish withthe dip method, since I always brush. This is neither better nor worse thandipping; it's just the method I prefer because that's what I learned to do. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- What is the oldest Polyurethane finish out there? Bythat, I mean how long is the longest anyone has fisheda rod with a Polyurethane finish? I got my hands on arod, not long ago that had obviously been finishedwith Poly, probably not a great grade of Poly but Polynone-the-less. It had grown brittle and didn't takemuch to take it off. from the looks of things it wasprobably on the rod 10 to 15 years. Just curious toknow if anyone has done any studies on the longevityof Polyurethane, is it going to last at least as longas a good Spar, 30-40 years? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from parataper@hotmail.com Wed Jun 27 07:18:29 2001 f5RCISZ25222 Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:18:23 -0700 HTTP; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:18:23 GMT OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2001 12:18:23.0336 (UTC)FILETIME=[42941680:01C0FF03] MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from jmpio@nhbm.com Wed Jun 27 09:22:28 2001 f5REMRZ29102 Subject: RE: Hair, Long ,beautiful hair What I've always wondered about rodmakers is not how much hair is on theirheads, but whether there is any trend as to arm hair. I admit that I testthe sharpness of my plane irons by shaving hair off my left arm. As aresult I have somewhat spotty coverage on that arm. At a rodmakersgathering do you see lots of bald arms? -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Hair, Long ,beautiful hair The Lord is goodThe Lord is fairTo some he gave brainsTo the others he gave hair Best regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Adam Vigil wrote: Hair is like Gold, Those who lack it try to hoard it as much as possible ie:comb overs Those who have it spend it freely ie: Flat tops and crew cuts Life is funny that way Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: GRNMTRODS@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 7:12 PMSubject: Hair, Long ,beautiful hairGentlemen, Maybe it's the chemicals that we use to build these long, beautiful rodsthat causes a thinning effect on our hair......... Jim from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Jun 27 15:15:01 2001 f5RKF0Z11141 NAA12168 Subject: Medved Beveler This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I am in the process of making a Medved Beveller. I am at the point of =making the forms. I see one form is to square off the strip and the =other is a 60 degree form. My question is why would I use a form to =square the strips? When I split there is an angle on the strip. Why =wouldn't you just use a primary form ,ala. W. Cattanach, and then a 60 =form for the beveller? If that is done for hand planning why does it =change for the beveller? Adam I am in the process of making a Medved= am at the point of making the forms. I see one form is to square off the = and the other is a 60 degree form. My question is why would I use a form = wouldn't you just use a primary form ,ala. W. Cattanach, and then a 60 = the beveller? If that is done for hand planning why does it change for = beveller? Adam from caneman@clnk.com Wed Jun 27 15:44:08 2001 f5RKi7Z12766 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:10:49 -0500 Subject: Charlie Curro Charlie,Please email me offlist. Need some info and can't find your email addyanywhere. Thanks,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from johnh@structuralsystemsinc.com Wed Jun 27 16:05:28 2001 f5RL5RZ14083 Subject: Varnish / Poly / Epoxy This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hello all; I am still stuck on the starting line for building a cane rod- so my =experiance in the subject is vastly limited. I have been watching the =discussions on poly v.s spar for finishes and epoxies vs other adhesives = 1.) Spar Vs Poly: I just finished building a drift boat and ended up =asking many of the same kinds of questions- the drift boat group says to =avoid poly and use spar varnish as a finish coat (over an epoxy base) - =because spar is more flexible than poly and will be less likely to fail =when the boat flexes- for what it is worth 2.) epoxy: The instructions that came with the structural epoxy say to =avoid tight clamping> epoxy works better with a degree of thickness to =work with. IIRC the book asked for about a 1 mm gap when joining woods. =I wonder if a tightly fit ferule would result in too little epoxy to = John HightowerNewbie at large Hello all; watching the discussions on poly v.s spar for finishes and epoxies vs = observations: and ended up asking many of the same kinds of questions- the drift boat = says to avoid poly and use spar varnish as a finish coat (over an epoxy = because spar is more flexible than poly and will be less likely to fail = boat flexes- for what it is worth 2.) epoxy: The instructions that came with the = thickness to work with. IIRC the book asked for about a 1 mm gap when = John HightowerNewbie at large from Dennishigham@cs.com Wed Jun 27 16:18:05 2001 f5RLI5Z14650 Subject: Re: Medved Beveler Adam,Al builds nodeless, by having all his strips the same diameter gluing up the splices is easier, neater (square beveler form). You don't need to use the primary form ala Cattanach to hand form the angles first just run the split strips thru the 60 degree form on the beveler and don't take too much off on each pass. Run all your strips thru then adjust the form up a little swap the strips and run them thru to cut the other side, repeat until you have 60 degree beveled strips. Dennis from bob@downandacross.com Wed Jun 27 20:05:41 2001 f5S15eZ18778 Subject: Re: Medved Beveler --=====================_20244267==_.ALT HI Adam:Using the squaring form is helpful when straightening the nodes. It will give you squared off edges to press in the vise to remove bends in dog legged strips.Just a word of note, you might also want to look at the ingeneous bevellers in Bob Milward's new book. The first one he shows in the back of his new book would probably be even easier to make.Best regards,Bob At 01:19 PM 6/27/2001 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote:I am in the process of making a Medved Beveller. I am at the point of making the forms. I see one form is to square off the strip and the other is a 60 degree form. My question is why would I use a form to square the strips? When I split there is an angle on the strip. Why wouldn't you just use a primary form ,ala. W. Cattanach, and then a 60 form for the beveller? If that is done for hand planning why does it change for the beveller? Adam --=====================_20244267==_.ALT HI Adam:Using the squaring form is helpful when straightening the nodes. It willgive you squared off edges to press in the vise to remove bends in doglegged strips. Just a word of note, you might also want to look at the ingeneousbevellers in Bob Milward's new book. The first one he shows in the backof his new book would probably be even easier to make. Best regards,Bob At 01:19 PM 6/27/2001 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote:I am inthe process of making a Medved Beveller. I am at the point of making theforms. I see one form is to square off the strip and the other is a 60 strips? When I split there is an angle on the strip. Why wouldn't youjust use a primary form ,ala. W. Cattanach, and then a 60 form for thebeveller? If that is done for hand planning why does it change for thebeveller? Adam --=====================_20244267==_.ALT-- from setissma@email.msn.com Wed Jun 27 21:11:25 2001 f5S2BOZ19576 Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:11:14 -0700 Subject: Which mini-lathe FILETIME=[9C2E1230:01C0FF77] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. would want? Thanks, Jeff Schaeffer see opinions on the list, but perhaps we could make an exception. = mini-lathe do you prefer, and Why? I am considering adding one to my = primarily for ferrules and handles, but would like to turn some reel = and inserts in the future. I am leaning toward a sherline because of = portability and they have accessory packages. But if I knew more = mini-lathes, is there another one I would = Schaeffer from channer@frontier.net Wed Jun 27 22:01:35 2001 f5S31YZ20222 Subject: Re: Which mini-lathe Jeff;I have a Grizzly 7"x12" mini lathe that is a scaled down version of alarge metal lathe. Cuts threads, has change gears, 4 way tool post, 3jaw chuck, .8" hole thru spindle, was accurate right out of the box andcost around $500.00. I suppose it is portable, but it does weigh 80lbs,which may deter some. It will comfortably do grips and reel seatinserts, and is also accurate enough to make ferrules and reel seathardware, if and when I ever get around to it. No connection, blah,blahblah.John setissma wrote: I hardly ever see opinions on the list, but perhaps we could make anexception. Which mini-lathe do you prefer, and Why? I am consideringadding one to my shop, primarily for ferrules and handles, but wouldlike to turn some reel seats and inserts in the future. I am leaningtoward a sherline because of its portability and they have accessorypackages. But if I knew more about mini- lathes, is there another one I would want? Thanks, Jeff Schaeffer from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Wed Jun 27 22:12:01 2001 f5S3C0Z20462 Subject: Re: Which mini-lathe This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi all...I too have been considering a mini-lathe for metal working and would =love to see some opinion/recommendations.... thanks,losey Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 10:15 PMSubject: Which mini-lathe packages. But if I knew more about mini-lathes, is there another one I = would want? Thanks, Jeff Schaeffer Hi all...I too have been considering a = working and would love to see some =opinion/recommendations.... thanks,losey ----- Original Message ----- setissma Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001= PMSubject: Which mini-lathe see opinions on the list, but perhaps we could make an exception. = mini-lathe do you prefer, and Why? I am considering adding one to = primarily for ferrules and handles, but would like to turn some = and inserts in the future. I am leaning toward a sherline because = portability and they have accessory packages. But if I knew more = mini-lathes, is there another one I would = Schaeffer from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Jun 27 22:12:38 2001 f5S3CcZ20509 UAA03619; Subject: Re: Which mini-lathe This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Jeff, Check this out http://www.mini-lathe.com/home.htm and this =http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/alath.htm. I also am in the market for a =lathe. Maker Mike Shay has this mini lathe and likes it but says it =needs a longer bed to do longer projects. Adam Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 7:15 PMSubject: Which mini-lathe packages. But if I knew more about mini-lathes, is there another one I = would want? Thanks, Jeff Schaeffer Jeff, Check this out http://www.mini-lathe.com/hom= this http://www.cctrap.com/~= I also am in the market for a lathe. Maker Mike Shay has this mini lathe = likes it but says it needs a longer bed to do longer =projects. Adam ----- Original Message ----- setissma Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001= PMSubject: Which mini-lathe see opinions on the list, but perhaps we could make an exception. = mini-lathe do you prefer, and Why? I am considering adding one to = primarily for ferrules and handles, but would like to turn some = and inserts in the future. I am leaning toward a sherline because = portability and they have accessory packages. But if I knew more = mini-lathes, is there another one I would = Schaeffer from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Jun 27 23:57:55 2001 f5S4vtZ21897 VAA04709 Subject: How many? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Showed a patient of mine a rod I just have completed. He asked me a =very good question. "How many people are there making rods in the USA? I =told him probably around four to five hundred makers. I really have no =clue. Does anyone else? Lets see what the consensus is. Adam Vigil = completed. He asked me a very good question. "How many people are there = is. AdamVigil from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 00:03:25 2001 f5S53OZ22139 2001 22:03:23 PDT Subject: Re: How many? adam, 3 years ago i heard ron barch say there wereless than 100 that had ever made a rod. ron might havea better idea than most. i am assuming the number hasgrown since then. timothy --- Adam Vigil wrote:Showed a patient of mine a rod I just havecompleted. He asked me a very good question. "Howmany people are there making rods in the USA? I toldhim probably around four to five hundred makers. Ireally have no clue. Does anyone else? Lets see whatthe consensus is. Adam Vigil ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from martinj@aa.net Thu Jun 28 00:06:01 2001 f5S560Z22297 Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:09:46 -0700 Subject: RE: How many? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. My guess, and it really would be a guess , would be more like 2000. I don'tknow how you would find out though. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: How many? Showed a patient of mine a rod I just have completed. He asked me a verygood question. "How many people are there making rods in the USA? I toldhimprobably around four to five hundred makers. I really have no clue. Doesanyone else? Lets see what the consensus is. Adam Vigil 0DocumentEmail My=guess,and it really would be a guess , would be more like 2000. I don’t =know how youwould find out though. Signature" MartinJensen -----OriginalMessage-----From:owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Wednesday, June27, =200110:03 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: How =many? a patient of mine a rod I just have completed. He asked me a very goodquestion. "How many people are there making rods in the USA? I told =him clue. Doesanyone else? Lets see what the consensus is. AdamVigil from Nodewrrior@aol.com Thu Jun 28 00:33:03 2001 f5S5X3Z22974 Subject: Re: Which mini-lathe I can whole heartedly recommend keeping your eyes out or a used Atlas- Craftsman. I love mine, it has the nice heavy bearings in the stock and a longer bed for all sorts of other projects. I saw somebody on the list was selling on a few weeks or months ago...Rob Hoffhines from horsesho@ptd.net Thu Jun 28 05:11:19 2001 f5SABIZ25627 sender ) Subject: Re: Which mini-lathe I have a Carba-Tech mini wood lathe for grips and seat spacers and a Grizzlymini metal lathe for ferrule stations and metal work. I also have a fullsize Grizzly wood lathe that pretty much just sits there. Marty channer wrote: Jeff;I have a Grizzly 7"x12" mini lathe that is a scaled down version of alarge metal lathe. Cuts threads, has change gears, 4 way tool post, 3jaw chuck, .8" hole thru spindle, was accurate right out of the box andcost around $500.00. I suppose it is portable, but it does weigh 80lbs,which may deter some. It will comfortably do grips and reel seatinserts, and is also accurate enough to make ferrules and reel seathardware, if and when I ever get around to it. No connection, blah,blahblah.John setissma wrote: I hardly ever see opinions on the list, but perhaps we could make anexception. Which mini-lathe do you prefer, and Why? I am consideringadding one to my shop, primarily for ferrules and handles, but wouldlike to turn some reel seats and inserts in the future. I am leaningtoward a sherline because of its portability and they have accessorypackages. But if I knew more about mini- lathes, is there another one I would want? Thanks, Jeff Schaeffer from horsesho@ptd.net Thu Jun 28 05:15:13 2001 f5SAFCZ25777 sender ) Subject: Re: How many? --------------0C08A7907CCBCABBE9FFDC4E I would say it's more like 4000-5000 rod makers. Marty Adam Vigil wrote: Showed a patient of mine a rod I just have completed. He asked me avery good question. "How many people are there making rods in the USA?I told him probably around four to five hundred makers. I really haveno clue. Does anyone else? Lets see what the consensus is. Adam Vigil --------------0C08A7907CCBCABBE9FFDC4E I would say it's more like 4000-5000 rod makers. MartyAdam Vigil wrote: a patient of mine a rod I just have completed. He asked me a very goodquestion. "How many people are there making rods in the USA? I told him Does anyone else? Lets see what the consensus Vigil --------------0C08A7907CCBCABBE9FFDC4E-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jun 28 08:07:00 2001 f5SD6xZ28619 Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:06:53 -0700 Subject: Re: How many? --------------E9063EA05552DA7235CD01B5 Adam,Last I checked there were about 500 members of thislist. A strong percentage of those folks (30% - 50%??) lovebamboo rods, but haven't made them yet. I know there aremany, many more makers not on this list. I'd say yournumbers aren't too far off. My guess would be somewherebetween 500 - 1000 makers. Harry Adam Vigil wrote: Showed a patient of mine a rod I just have completed. Heasked me a very good question. "How many people are theremaking rods in the USA? I told him probably around fourto five hundred makers. I really have no clue. Does anyoneelse? Lets see what the consensus is. Adam Vigil --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------E9063EA05552DA7235CD01B5 Adam, this My guess would be somewhere between 500 - 1000 makers. Adam Vigil wrote: a patient of mine a rod I just have completed. He asked me a very goodquestion. "How many people are there making rods in the USA? I told him Does anyone else? Lets see what the consensus Vigil --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------E9063EA05552DA7235CD01B5-- from if6were9@bellsouth.net Thu Jun 28 10:28:43 2001 f5SFShZ03583 ;Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:42:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Which mini-lathe While not exactly a mini, the Jet 9 X 20 is an excellent small lathe.The cost is reasonable, and tooling and accessories are plentiful andrelatively inexpensive. from Dennishigham@cs.com Thu Jun 28 13:31:28 2001 f5SIVRZ06499 Subject: Re: Acraglas vs. Anchor Bond adhesives for ferrules Andy,I've never used Anchor Bond but I've been using Acraglas Gel for 4 or 5 years. I've never had a problem. I know of other rodmakers using Acraglasand I know of no failures. I'd be curious to know if anyone on the list has ever had a failure w/ Acraglas.I don't add any metals. I don't know of anyone has tried Epon to glue ferrules. Dennis from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 13:47:40 2001 f5SIldZ07923 IAA11726 Subject: Ron Barch This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I am looking to get some back issues of the planning form. Does Ron =Barch have an email address? Snail mail is just to slow. Adam I am looking to get some back issues of= planning form. Does Ron Barch have an email address? Snail mail is just = slow. Adam from mbiondo@wuacn.wustl.edu Thu Jun 28 13:52:41 2001 f5SIqeZ08150 Subject: Grayrock2001 Charlie Curro has added several pages of photo from the Grayrock2001 Rodmakers Gathering. Check out the craziness: http://www.curro.net/tbbbq7 Also this year, we had Grayrock2001 commemorative coffee mugs made up with proceeds going to conservation efforts in the area. We have a few mugs left. If anyone would be interested in one you can check them out at: http://www.curro.net/grayrock2001 Mike- from rmoon@ida.net Thu Jun 28 15:15:09 2001 f5SKF8Z10856 Subject: Re: Ferrule pinning Harry, I have mentioned this before, but ,maybe a repeat is in order. Numberedtwist steel drills are toio flexible to depend on for pinning work. I use both short and quite sturdy, and can be had in a number of sizes andconfiguration.Have you got a Dentist Friend? If so they willo most likely be free, but evenif you have to buy them it is worthwhile.Ralph Harry Boyd wrote: Ted,If other folks are as ham-fisted as I am, it might be a good idea tosuggest buying more than one drill. I've broken several trying to drillout the pins on old reel seat caps. If I remember correctly (doubtful) thestandard pinning wire is .040", and the drill bit is .039" or a #60 drill. Harry Ted wrote: You can get nickle silver pinning wire from a jewellery equipmentwholesaler. You will also need to get the same diameter number drill. --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from DragonflyMAE@aol.com Thu Jun 28 15:25:22 2001 f5SKPLZ11227 Subject: Milward book --part1_25.175013de.286c6f7a_boundary I know that this has been discussed, already but I would like to know where I could find Milwards book?Thanks to all Matthew --part1_25.175013de.286c6f7a_boundary I know that this hasbeen discussed, already but I would like to know where I could find Milwards book? Matthew --part1_25.175013de.286c6f7a_boundary-- from BambooRods@aol.com Thu Jun 28 15:26:26 2001 f5SKQPZ11275 Subject: Hollow Fluting A question to the list, when hollow fluting a rod, should the approach be to be very specific on how much is taken off. Should the exact same amount be removed from each strip? Basically the question is whether or not uneven removal impacts the taper. Would it create unnatural splines etc. How will it effect the taper? TIADoug from ChristopherO@epicimaging.com Thu Jun 28 15:56:30 2001 f5SKuTZ12237 Subject: RE: How many? 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. harold demerest, at the last NW rodmakers 2000 meeting, said that hethinksthere's between 600-800 rodmakers in the USA. chris -----Original Message----- Subject: How many? Showed a patient of mine a rod I just have completed. He asked me a verygood question. "How many people are there making rods in the USA? I toldhimprobably around four to five hundred makers. I really have no clue. Doesanyone else? Lets see what the consensus is. Adam Vigil harold demerest, at the last NW rodmakers 2000 meeting, said that he thinksthere's between 600-800 rodmakers in the USA. chris -----Original Message-----From: Adam Vigil 2001 10:03 How many? have completed. He asked me a very good question. "How many people are theremaking makers. I really have no clue. Does anyone else? Lets see what the consensus is. AdamVigil from GRNMTRODS@aol.com Thu Jun 28 16:35:23 2001 f5SLZLZ13537 Subject: Need a proven rod taper --part1_10c.1f537e8.286cfd10_boundary List, If anyone has a good taper design for;8 foot , 3 piece, 6 or 7 weight with a fast action . I would appreciate it if you could share it with me. Thanks,Jim in Vermont --part1_10c.1f537e8.286cfd10_boundary List, If anyone has a good taper design for;8 foot , 3 piece, 6 or 7 weight fast action . I would appreciate it if you could share it with me. Thanks,Jim in Vermont --part1_10c.1f537e8.286cfd10_boundary-- from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Thu Jun 28 17:31:48 2001 f5SMVlZ14718 Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:31:44 +0100 Subject: Re: How many? Adam,Here in the UK we have between 20 - 40 rodmakers.Quite a few of these however have never MADE a bamboo rod......theyassemble components on blanks made by others and then often pass themoff as being made by themselves!........Paul Harry Boyd wrote: Adam,Last I checked there were about 500 members of this list. Astrong percentage of those folks (30% - 50%??) love bamboo rods, buthaven't made them yet. I know there are many, many more makers not onthis list. I'd say your numbers aren't too far off. My guess wouldbe somewhere between 500 - 1000 makers. Harry Adam Vigil wrote: Showed a patient of mine a rod I just have completed. He asked me avery good question. "How many people are there making rods in theUSA? I told him probably around four to five hundred makers. Ireally have no clue. Does anyone else? Lets see what the consensusis. Adam Vigil --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Thu Jun 28 18:38:05 2001 f5SNc4Z15475 Subject: Test-please delete This is a multi-part message in MIME format. from stoltz10@home.com Thu Jun 28 20:20:02 2001 f5T1K1Z16325 femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com 0700 Subject: test please delete This is a multi-part message in MIME format. from cdn@ticon.net Thu Jun 28 20:32:46 2001 f5T1WkZ16418 (216.145.217.204) Subject: url for brownells Hi list;anybody know the url for brownells?thanks. Ned from Troutgetter@aol.com Thu Jun 28 21:17:14 2001 f5T2HDZ19507 Subject: Re: Which mini-lathe rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu --part1_34.1724febb.286d3f1e_boundary In a message dated 6/27/2001 8:21:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: Jeff, Check this out http://www.mini-lathe.com/home.htm and this http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/alath.htm. I also am in the market lathe. Maker Mike Shay has this mini lathe and likes it but says it needs a longer bed to do longer projects. Adam Adam, Jeff, First, I had the honor of having Adam stop by my shop last weekend. Living in SoCal, it was great to learn of another maker only miles from me! Although Adam stopped by around 1:00pm beer o'clock had already started for me andso, I am only partially responsible for what I may have said. That said, Adam, you are welcome at the shop anytime, I really enjoyed talking to someone who knew bamboo. Second, I have the little Harbor Freight 7X10. It's a good little lathe and if there wasn't another choice, would buy another. I have been able to modify the little contraption to be able to turn grips with the reel seat already mounted for a good friend, and though I haven't made ferrules, or reel seat hardware, I have heard from others that it does just fine. If I were to buy another lathe, I would look for an old Atlas, or South Bend as well. But DO check out the grizzly. from what I've read, at least as good of quality as the H-F and a longer bed for about the same amount of cash. Mike (cripes it's hot) Shay --part1_34.1724febb.286d3f1e_boundary In a message dated6/27/2001 8:21:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: Jeff, Check this out http://www.mini-lathe.com/home.htm and this http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/alath.htm. I also am in themarket for a lathe. Maker Mike Shay has this mini lathe and likes it but says it needsa longer bed to do longer projects. Adam Adam, Jeff, First, I had the honor of having Adam stop by my shop last weekend.Living in SoCal, it was great to learn of another maker only miles from me! Adam stopped by around 1:00pm beer o'clock had already started forme and so, I am only partially responsible for what I may have said. That said,Adam, you are welcome at the shop anytime, I really enjoyed talking tosomeone who knew bamboo. Second, I have the little Harbor Freight 7X10. It's a good little lathe and if there wasn't another choice, would buy another. I have been able tomodify the little contraption to be able to turn grips with the reel seat already mounted for a good friend, and though I haven't made ferrules, or reelseat hardware, I have heard from others that it does just fine. If I were tobuy another lathe, I would look for an old Atlas, or South Bend as well. ButDO check out the grizzly. from what I've read, at least as good of qualityas the H-F and a longer bed for about the same amount of cash. Mike (cripes it's hot) Shay --part1_34.1724febb.286d3f1e_boundary-- from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu Jun 28 21:20:45 2001 f5T2KiZ19914 Subject: Re: url for brownells In a message dated 06/28/2001 10:16:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cdn@ticon.net writes: www.brownells.com http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 21:33:19 2001 f5T2XIZ20277 TAA21551 Subject: Maker or Builder This is a multi-part message in MIME format. from the many emails I have received from makers of renown it appears =the consensus is there are at least 500 and up to 1000 makers. This is =includes those who have actually laid a hand plane to cane and "made" a =rod. These numbers include hobbyist, part time makers up to = The numbers become fuzzy when talking about "makers" due to some ="builders" taking on the title of maker. I have met a few people who =restore rods and are up front about it. But IMHO if a rod is built on =someone else's split cane blank it was assembled and not made by the =person. In my years of flyfishing I have met some who claim to be =flyfishermen. When I get excited to have a local comrade reality sets =in when they tell me they flyfish with a fly, mono, bobber and a bait =pole. Technically they are fishing with a fly but it no way matches the =skill and experience of a flyfisherman. I believe making a rod is laying =hand to plane, plane to cane. I can not say what others are it is not my =place. I though am a maker. Adam Vigil from the many emails I have received = renown it appears the consensus is there are at least 500 and up to 1000 = This is includes those who have actually laid a hand plane to cane and = rod. These numbers include hobbyist, part time makers up to = = it no way matches the skill and experience of a flyfisherman. I believe = rod is laying hand to plane, plane to cane. I can not say what others = not my place. I though am a maker. AdamVigil from bob@downandacross.com Thu Jun 28 22:03:17 2001 f5T33GZ20956 Subject: Re: Ron Barch --=====================_20352891==_.ALT "Ronald J. Barch" At 08:53 AM 6/28/2001 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote:I am looking to get some back issues of the planning form. Does Ron Barch have an email address? Snail mail is just to slow. Adam Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com --=====================_20352891==_.ALT At 08:53 AM 6/28/2001 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote:I amlooking to get some back issues of the planning form. Does Ron Barch havean email address? Snail mail is just to slow. Adam Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com --=====================_20352891==_.ALT-- from jmpio@nhbm.com Fri Jun 29 08:52:06 2001 f5TDq4Z29768 Subject: RE: Maker or Builder This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I would have to agree that there is a distinction between builders andmakers. In fact, a European friend who loves both graphite and cane rods,when I asked if he "built" rods (at the time I was merely a "builder" ofgraphite rods) respodned that he had "finished" a few rods, including cane.His use of the word "finish" did not signify merely that he applied varnishto cane (though he has done that), he also used the term to apply to the actof wrapping guides and installing hardware, regardless of type of blank. Ifound that to be a very honest and quite precise answer. But you'll neverknow how many "builders" "makers" and "finishers" there are unless youdefine the terms carefully and do some kind of survey. Given the smallmarket of rodmakers (as we here on the list use the term), we all owe extrathanks to those risk-taking entrepreneurs who have decided to make somekindof living by trying to supply us with the tools and materials we need. Youknow who they are. -----Original Message----- Subject: Maker or Builder from the many emails I have received from makers of renown it appearstheconsensus is there are at least 500 and up to 1000 makers. This is includesthose who have actually laid a hand plane to cane and "made" a rod. Thesenumbers include hobbyist, part time makers up to professional. The numbers become fuzzy when talking about "makers" due to some"builders"taking on the title of maker. I have met a few people who restore rods andare up front about it. But IMHO if a rod is built on someone else's splitcane blank it was assembled and not made by the person. In my years offlyfishing I have met some who claim to be flyfishermen. When I get excitedto have a local comrade reality sets in when they tell me they flyfish witha fly, mono, bobber and a bait pole. Technically they are fishing with a flybut it no way matches the skill and experience of a flyfisherman. I believemaking a rod is laying hand to plane, plane to cane. I can not say whatothers are it is not my place. I though am a maker. Adam Vigil I would have to agree that there is a distinction between builders and rods, when I asked if he "built" rods (at the time I was merely a "builder" of graphite rods) respodned that he had "finished" a few rods, including varnish to cane (though he has done that), he also used the term to apply tothe act of wrapping guides and installing hardware, regardless of type of But you'll never know how many "builders" "makers" and "finishers" there are Given the small market of rodmakers (as we here on the list use the term), we allowe extra thanks to those risk-taking entrepreneurs who have decided to makesome kind of living by trying to supply us with the tools and materials we -----Original Message-----From: Adam Vigil 8:38 Maker or Builder from the many emails I have received frommakers of renown it appears the consensus is there are at least 500 and up to1000 makers. This is includes those who have actually laid a hand plane to caneand "made" a rod. These numbers include hobbyist, part time makers up to professional. talking about met of flyfishing I have met some who claim to be flyfishermen. When I get excitedto they are fishing with a fly but it no way matches the skill and experience of a flyfisherman. I believe making a rod is laying hand to plane, plane to cane. I can not say what others are it is not my place. I though am a maker. AdamVigil from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Jun 29 09:24:35 2001 f5TEOYZ01453 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: Maker or Builder Adam,First, I am not a maker, but then by your definition "hand to plane, plane to cane" , neither was Jim Payne or Leon Thomas. Indeed, none of the workmen in the Thomas shop, the sawyer, the beveler, the gluer, the ferruler, or the women who wrapped, would meet your criteria, yet mysteriously, wonderful rods flowed from their collective hands. I hope someday, should I live so long, to be a rodbuilder half as worthy.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Adam Vigil wrote: from the many emails I have received from makers of renown it appears the consensus is there are at least 500 and up to 1000 makers. This is includes those who have actually laid a hand plane to cane and "made" a rod. These numbers include hobbyist, part time makers up to professional. The numbers become fuzzy when talking about "makers" due to some "builders" taking on the title of maker. I have met a few people who restore rods and are up front about it. But IMHO if a rod is built on someone else's split cane blank it was assembled and not made by the person. In my years of flyfishing I have met some who claim to be flyfishermen. When I get excited to have a local comrade reality sets in when they tell me they flyfish with a fly, mono, bobber and a bait pole. Technically they are fishing with a fly but it no way matches the skill and experience of a flyfisherman. I believe making a rod is laying hand to plane, plane to cane. I can not say what others are it is not my place. I though am a maker. Adam Vigil -- from e.estlow@worldnet.att.net Fri Jun 29 09:34:13 2001 f5TEYCZ02153 +0000 Subject: FW: Hollow Fluting Uneven removal of material from the inside of the rod section will cause an irregular moment of inertia, thus section modulus, and will affect the structural properties of the rod. That is, the bending, energy loading, etc., in essence, what you are calling "the taper." This effect will be less than removing the same amount of material from the exterior of the rod, due to the material in question being closer to the neutral axis (centerline) of the rod. So yes, be sure to remove as close to the exact same amount from each strip as you can. Ed Estlow New Frontiers InternationalMapping the Future (612) 986-2029e.estlow@att.net -----Original Message----- Subject: Hollow Fluting A question to the list, when hollow fluting a rod, should the approach be tobe very specific on how much is taken off. Should the exact same amount be removed from each strip? Basically the question is whether or not unevenremoval impacts the taper. Would it create unnatural splines etc. How willit effect the taper? TIADoug from wer_education@yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 09:57:57 2001 f5TEvuZ03393 2001 07:57:56 PDT Subject: Re: Which mini-lathe Please be aware of my and many other's experience withHarbor Freights poor customer service. I purhcased awood lathe which the tool rest broke after 5 mintesuse. It took 6 months , many phone calls and emails toget my money back. The price sounded good at 100 butwas not worth it. I like the Sherline that a friend ofmine has. He makes ferrules and reel seats. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from jmpio@nhbm.com Fri Jun 29 10:00:56 2001 f5TF0tZ03605 Subject: 2 Problems OK, this is probably a really simple question, but since I was up planingand gluing well after midnight last night, my foggy brain can't figure itout. I had a problem in planing which then may or may not have resulted ina problem in the glued up sections. While planing tip sections for a 7' 4wt 3 piece I kept ending up with f**edup tips. I would be planing along merrily, everything going great. When Igot down to about the last 20 or 30 thousandths things would start goinghorribly awry. In the top 1.5-2 inches of the tip sections my trianglewould go totally askew. I would pick it up, check it with an angle guageand all would be fine, then I'd plane that last bit and end up with what wasnearly a right triangle (the nearly right angle being formed between theenamel side and the left side as you look at the top of the spline). Inother words the tip end of the spline would look something like this: !_\ .The nearly vertical side would be much shorter than either the enamel sideor the other planed side which were nearly equal in length. This happenedto 8 out of 12 splines, but it only effected the top 1.5-2 inches. On onlyone of those splines I was able to correct it by planing off the last 10-20thousandths from (if my brain remembers correctly) the vertical side only.On others this attempt failed. I went ahead and glued it up, hoping that Iwould have enough excess cane at the top to trim off this area (that's goingto work for one tip, but the other I'm going to be trimming below the firstmeasured tip station). I'm not sure if the problem is (1) forms with amessed up groove at the tip, the forms are homemade from maple and Icouldhave messed up the groove, or I may have had incidental planing from theform tops that affected one side more than the other, or (2) bad planingtechnique, I use a 9-1/2, no training wheels, and I run the plane skewed tothe spline (better slicing action that way, IMO), I also use the factoryiron but I resharpen frequently and sharpness didn't seem to have any effecton the problem. Well since this is so long, I'll address my second problem in a separatepost. from jmpio@nhbm.com Fri Jun 29 10:04:26 2001 f5TF4PZ03908 Subject: 2nd Problem In a word: gluelines. Too many, too big. I plane down to within a fewthousandths, then use a hand scraper for the rest which on the last rod gaveme very smooth splines which glued up nicely. Was looking at the rod Iglued up last night, lots of glue lines. I cannot honestly remember (thisis only my 2nd rod) whether the glue lines are more visible now (just out ofthe string and not yet scraped clean of enamel an excess glue) than theywill be after scraping and finishing. Did I just get sloppy this time, oram I overreacting to the fresh out of the string appearance? Be honest, Ican take it. :)) from jmpio@nhbm.com Fri Jun 29 10:07:36 2001 f5TF7ZZ04223 Subject: Since I'm taking up bandwidth Since I'm already bothering you good people, one last thing. My tip issupposed to measure .073 which calculates to 4.67 64ths. Would you usea4.5 or a 5 tiptop? from if6were9@bellsouth.net Fri Jun 29 11:21:15 2001 f5TGLFZ08108 Subject: Logan 10" lathe for sale --------------D0778B9E515F8E742FDCDC22 In light of the recent postings to the list regarding lathes, I thoughtthis would be of interest to some of the members.eBay item 1609997778 (Ends Jul- 02-01 22:27:54 PDT ) - Logan 10" MetalLathe for metal and woodI don't know the seller, I was just searching ebay to get an idea ofwhat to ask for a couple of wood lathes I'm getting rid of and this cameup in my search. --------------D0778B9E515F8E742FDCDC22 In light of the recent postings to the list regarding lathes, I thoughtthis would be of interest to some of the members.eBayitem 1609997778 (Ends Jul-02- 01 22:27:54 PDT ) - Logan 10" Metal Lathe I don't know the seller, I was just searching ebay to get an idea ofwhat to ask for a couple of wood lathes I'm getting rid of and this cameup in my search. --------------D0778B9E515F8E742FDCDC22-- from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 29 11:44:37 2001 f5TGiaZ09342 Subject: Re: 2 Problems In my case, the problem seems to be the cane. A twist in a strip pulls theenamel side up and the plane cuts more on one side producing an angle lessthan 60 degrees. The smaller this angle, the narrower the strip is on theside opposite this angle (WRT the other sides). The narrow angle also resultsin an excessive width of one adjacent side. The wide side aggrevates theproblem in that this side has greater resistance to the plane resulting inadditional cane twist resulting in a wider side that causes ...When I see thisoccuring, I plane the bamboo at the narrow angle. This results in having foursides but no long side to cause the cane to twist. It will usually planecorrectluy now if you make the next few strokes carefully. The problemusually starts with the rough planing so watch for it then. The earlier youdetect it, the easier it is to fix. Hope this helps. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com jmpio@nhbm.com wrote:OK, this is probably a really simple question, but since I was up planingand gluing well after midnight last night, my foggy brain can't figure itout. I had a problem in planing which then may or may not have resulted ina problem in the glued up sections. While planing tip sections for a 7' 4wt 3 piece I kept ending up with f**edup tips. I would be planing along merrily, everything going great. When Igot down to about the last 20 or 30 thousandths things would start goinghorribly awry. In the top 1.5-2 inches of the tip sections my trianglewould go totally askew. I would pick it up, check it with an angle guageand all would be fine, then I'd plane that last bit and end up with what wasnearly a right triangle (the nearly right angle being formed between theenamel side and the left side as you look at the top of the spline). Inother words the tip end of the spline would look something like this: !_\ .The nearly vertical side would be much shorter than either the enamel sideor the other planed side which were nearly equal in length. This happenedto 8 out of 12 splines, but it only effected the top 1.5-2 inches. On onlyone of those splines I was able to correct it by planing off the last 10-20thousandths from (if my brain remembers correctly) the vertical side only.On others this attempt failed. I went ahead and glued it up, hoping that Iwould have enough excess cane at the top to trim off this area (that's goingto work for one tip, but the other I'm going to be trimming below the firstmeasured tip station). I'm not sure if the problem is (1) forms with amessed up groove at the tip, the forms are homemade from maple and Icouldhave messed up the groove, or I may have had incidental planing from theform tops that affected one side more than the other, or (2) bad planingtechnique, I use a 9-1/2, no training wheels, and I run the plane skewed tothe spline (better slicing action that way, IMO), I also use the factoryiron but I resharpen frequently and sharpness didn't seem to have any effecton the problem. Well since this is so long, I'll address my second problem in a separatepost. from caneman@clnk.com Fri Jun 29 11:47:39 2001 f5TGldZ09664 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Since I'm taking up bandwidth James,No need to panic. Sounds like you have some common problems here thatare easy to cure.Problem #1 Out of Whack strips: Go ahead and check your forms to besure, but I doubt that is your problem. Planing can be a bit trickysometimes and I've seen this happen to a lot of people on their first coupleof rods, so I feel that it's probably something to do with your planingtechnique. My opinion, the most likely thing causing this is too muchpressure on the plane. Don't press the plane down into the form. Just gripit lightly and let the weight of the plane and the sharp blade do all thework. All you need do is guide the plane down the strip, not push the planedownwards into the strip to make the cut. Pushing the plane can make thestrip "climb" out of the groove in your forms and will give you an unevencut. Don't be discouraged, as I feel that everyone out there, unless theywere born with cane splinters in their fingers, has probably done exactlywhat you've done here. I know I have, and I've seen people get them so farout of shape that they were nearly like a paper thin flat on the tip whenthey got the strip finished. You'll eventually get a "feel" for the stripsand know exactly what they're doing in the forms, but in the meantime,alternate sides on those final passes taking pass, turning the strip, takinganother pass. If your fingers or wrist start to get fatigued, then you'reholding the plane too tight and pressing down too hard. Contrary to popularbelief, planing is not a difficult task. I have a degenerative bonedisease, which affects my hands, wrists and elbows and can still hand planewithout hurting too bad. Hold that plane like it's covered with spikes.The plane and the strip are both delicate things... use "kid gloves".Problem #2 Glue Lines: Before you panic about the glue lines, sand downthe sections and see what they look like. Many were the times that I roughscraped the glue and string off of a section and thought "Well, this one'sfuel for the incinerator!" then got the excess glue sanded off to find agreat section underneath all the mess. One thing I think you shouuld do,and you may be doing already, is to tape up each section and inspect it forfit. After all my strips are final planed, I use 1/4" masking tape and tapethe section together, placing a ring of tape about every six inches or so,with all strips in the proper sequence. Between the tape squeeze the stripstogether with your fingers, inspecting every millimeter of every joint toinsure that you don't have any "gaps". If a gap is there, then you can beassured a glue line will be there too. These will usually be almostindiscernable, but they do sometimes pop up. When they do, mark the areawith a pencil on the enamel side. Once you inspect the entire section andget all places marked (hopefully only one or two, or even better yet NONE!)then you can put the faulty strip back in the forms and "clean up" the area,either with a scraper, or you can do as I do, sand the effected areaslightly with a block sander and 1500 grit sandpaper. Normally, only a halfa thousandths or so will take care of what would turn out to be a gapingglue line on a finished section, and that half a thousandths is NOT going tohave a noticable effect on your finished rod, so far as action and feel areconcerned. Once they bad spots are scraped or sanded, tape the sectionstogether again and recheck not only the areas you repaired, but the rest ofthe sections fit also. This, if done patiently and properly, should cureany glue line problems you have, assuming your forms are true.#3. Well, personally, I would use the 4.5 tip top and take a wire guagedrill in a pen vise and ream it out to as close to the needed dimension as Icould. You're only talking about drilling it out about 0.003 thousandths,so it will only take a few seconds to do that. Before you go to that muchtrouble, try several 4.5's and 5's from your supply. I frequently find a4.5 that's a little big or a five that is a little small, so you're likelyto find one that will fit it without drilling. Hope this helps...Later,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Since I'm taking up bandwidth Since I'm already bothering you good people, one last thing. My tip issupposed to measure .073 which calculates to 4.67 64ths. Would youusea4.5 or a 5 tiptop? from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 29 11:50:48 2001 f5TGolZ10026 MAA19837; Subject: Re: 2nd Problem Check for debris on your gluing table. Glue lines can be caused by somethingas small as a human hair getting between the strips. Also watch those loosepower fibers. Chances are debris is the problem. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com jmpio@nhbm.com wrote:In a word: gluelines. Too many, too big. I plane down to within a fewthousandths, then use a hand scraper for the rest which on the last rod gaveme very smooth splines which glued up nicely. Was looking at the rod Iglued up last night, lots of glue lines. I cannot honestly remember (thisis only my 2nd rod) whether the glue lines are more visible now (just out ofthe string and not yet scraped clean of enamel an excess glue) than theywill be after scraping and finishing. Did I just get sloppy this time, oram I overreacting to the fresh out of the string appearance? Be honest, Ican take it. :)) from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 12:06:51 2001 f5TH6oZ10946 KAA17326; Subject: Re: 2 Problems Take a close look at your forms. They just might need a tune up. In someforms the planing surface is not parallel. You might have this in your formsat the tips. On my forms I took a sharpie marker and colored both flats. Ithen took a flat file and slowly pulled it over the forms. If the ink is notremove even and equal chances are the forms are not true. You can continueuntil the ink is equally removed to true up the form. Slow and steady. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: 2 Problems In the top 1.5-2 inches of the tip sections my trianglewould go totally askew. from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 29 13:44:27 2001 f5TIiQZ16202 Subject: iron vs bronze I was getting ready to order a LN scraper plane and I noticed they make themboth of iron and bronze. Any suggestions as to which is better? Thanks. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from cathcreek@hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 14:20:15 2001 f5TJKEZ17832 Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:20:09 -0700 Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:20:09 GMT rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Which mini-lathe FILETIME=[82E50810:01C100D0] I have the Grizz 7X12 and I like it very much. I have turned cork, reel seat hardware and am working on my first set of ferrules right now. Can't overstate how important good cutting tools are, but it has been a good machine for me so far. Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com From: Troutgetter@aol.com rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Which mini-latheDate: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 22:17:02 EDT In a message dated 6/27/2001 8:21:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: Jeff, Check this out HREF="http://www.mini- lathe.com/home.htm">http://www.mini-lathe.com/home.htm and this http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/alath.htm. I also am in themarket lathe. Maker Mike Shay has this mini lathe and likes it but says it needs alonger bed to do longer projects. Adam Adam, Jeff, First, I had the honor of having Adam stop by my shop last weekend. Living inSoCal, it was great to learn of another maker only miles from me! AlthoughAdam stopped by around 1:00pm beer o'clock had already started for meand so,I am only partially responsible for what I may have said. That said, Adam,you are welcome at the shop anytime, I really enjoyed talking to someone whoknew bamboo. Second, I have the little Harbor Freight 7X10. It's a good little lathe andif there wasn't another choice, would buy another. I have been able to modifythe little contraption to be able to turn grips with the reel seat alreadymounted for a good friend, and though I haven't made ferrules, or reel seathardware, I have heard from others that it does just fine. If I were to buyanother lathe, I would look for an old Atlas, or South Bend as well. But DOcheck out the grizzly. from what I've read, at least as good of quality asthe H-F and a longer bed for about the same amount of cash. Mike (cripes it's hot) Shay _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 29 17:49:56 2001 f5TMntZ23905 Subject: Re: iron vs bronze Thanks guys. I think I will order the iron one. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from Dennishigham@cs.com Fri Jun 29 18:34:56 2001 f5TNYuZ24826 Subject: Re: Hollow Fluting Doug,I'd say if you don't want any surprises take the same amount off all strips. I had an interesting discussion with Per Brandon about 6 years ago...Per mentioned that no one had investigated the effects of separate internal tapers in hollow built rods. Adjusting the thickness of wall sections to affect flex. If you flex a hollow built section it deforms into an oval...how about thicker walls in some strips to minimize the deformation?. Would the rod be or feel faster??I'd say keep them all the same unless you want to explore new territory :-)Dennis from jerryy@webtv.net Fri Jun 29 18:50:08 2001 f5TNo7Z25174 (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id QAA21302; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:50:06 - ETAtAhR3yg0ZzPBR+p3TgadCl7NQulMNpgIVAJoTaSgNhj2DRsq8DS4Srq0ay0gP rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Hollow Fluting EDT Dennis - When I did the 10 wt. salmon rod the hollow section was cutwith the taper set in the Morgan mill. The mid and the butt thicknesswas different but it was maintained the wole length of the section. TomMorgans hollowing cutter made it easy and used a point mike to checkafter each pass of the cutter. Regards, Jerry Young from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Jun 29 20:25:01 2001 f5U1P1Z26240 f5U1Oxi08979 Subject: Re: 2 Problems I have had this start to happen to me. If I have a wide strip that I try toplane on the small part of the form, the strip will tend to twist while planing.The remedy I found is to move the strip to the larger part or to the butt sideand plane till a good triangle is established. Then move up to the small part ofthe form. I have not had a bad tip section doing this. If I had continuedplaning I would of had a flat side.I now start the small end in the wide part of the form and move up as it getssmaller.A twist in the strip will also give you this problem.Hope this helps.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com jmpio@nhbm.com wrote: OK, this is probably a really simple question, but since I was up planingand gluing well after midnight last night, my foggy brain can't figure itout. I had a problem in planing which then may or may not have resulted ina problem in the glued up sections. While planing tip sections for a 7' 4wt 3 piece I kept ending up with f**edup tips. I would be planing along merrily, everything going great. When Igot down to about the last 20 or 30 thousandths things would start goinghorribly awry. In the top 1.5-2 inches of the tip sections my trianglewould go totally askew. I would pick it up, check it with an angle guageand all would be fine, then I'd plane that last bit and end up with what wasnearly a right triangle (the nearly right angle being formed between theenamel side and the left side as you look at the top of the spline). Inother words the tip end of the spline would look something like this: !_\ .The nearly vertical side would be much shorter than either the enamel sideor the other planed side which were nearly equal in length. This happenedto 8 out of 12 splines, but it only effected the top 1.5-2 inches. On onlyone of those splines I was able to correct it by planing off the last 10-20thousandths from (if my brain remembers correctly) the vertical side only.On others this attempt failed. I went ahead and glued it up, hoping that Iwould have enough excess cane at the top to trim off this area (that'sgoingto work for one tip, but the other I'm going to be trimming below the firstmeasured tip station). I'm not sure if the problem is (1) forms with amessed up groove at the tip, the forms are homemade from maple and Icouldhave messed up the groove, or I may have had incidental planing from theform tops that affected one side more than the other, or (2) bad planingtechnique, I use a 9-1/2, no training wheels, and I run the plane skewed tothe spline (better slicing action that way, IMO), I also use the factoryiron but I resharpen frequently and sharpness didn't seem to have anyeffecton the problem. Well since this is so long, I'll address my second problem in a separatepost. from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Jun 29 20:34:53 2001 f5U1YqZ26495 Subject: Re: Since I'm taking up bandwidth I always use a tip top that fits over the cane without removing any material. Ifeel this is very important and is the reason so many classics have 1/2"shorttips. Marty jmpio@nhbm.com wrote: Since I'm already bothering you good people, one last thing. My tip issupposed to measure .073 which calculates to 4.67 64ths. Would youuse a4.5 or a 5 tiptop? from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Jun 29 20:44:25 2001 f5U1iOZ26696 f5U1iNi11230 Subject: Re: 2nd Problem I am no expert but glue lines do happen. I made the first 12 rods on myhomemadeforms without any sign of glue lines. Rod # 13 was made on a store boughtformalong with # 14 and 15. 13 14 and 15 all had glue lines in the same place. Itturned out to be the form. In places it was not 60*. I was able to clean it upand it is ok now. On rod 16 I started using Epon and a 4 string binder. I hadglue lines. Found I did not have enough tension on the binder for the thickglue. Tightened up on the spools and no more glue lines.One thing I do is after I plane all that I can take off, I use single edge razorblades to scrape down to the metal on the form. This makes all the stripsthesame size. The one side is moved down the form a bit and scraped. The othersideis then moved up to the final size and scraped.After getting the initial taper the enamel side is scraped flat before finaltaper is done.This may not be conventional, it is the way I do it and do get real nice blanks. I am approaching 50 rods and blanks now, have had about 7 with glue lines.Not abad average I think.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com jmpio@nhbm.com wrote: In a word: gluelines. Too many, too big. I plane down to within a fewthousandths, then use a hand scraper for the rest which on the last rodgaveme very smooth splines which glued up nicely. Was looking at the rod Iglued up last night, lots of glue lines. I cannot honestly remember (thisis only my 2nd rod) whether the glue lines are more visible now (just out ofthe string and not yet scraped clean of enamel an excess glue) than theywill be after scraping and finishing. Did I just get sloppy this time, oram I overreacting to the fresh out of the string appearance? Be honest, Ican take it. :)) from wer_education@yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 11:32:06 2001 f5UGW6Z06809 Jun 2001 09:32:02 PDT Subject: forms Thanks again to all who answered my forms questions. Idid finally get some cold rolled steel and found itlooks very different. The metal I had was curved atthe edges and unusable. I am loosing use of this computer but I have a friendwho reads the list and prints things for mesometimes. thanks again __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from flytyr@southshore.com Sat Jun 30 17:53:08 2001 f5UMr7Z11040 f5UMr6i09621 Subject: Newbee wants help. Is there anyone in the Artesia N.M. area thatwould help someone get started.Contact me off list.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from bob@downandacross.com Sat Jun 30 21:23:50 2001 f612NnZ13337 Subject: Power Fibers July 2001 --=====================_35182966==_.ALT Dear friends:The July 2001 issue of Power Fibers is now available for download. http://www.powerfibers.com Thanks for your continued support, and I look forward to your feedback. Bob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.com, the online magazine for bamboo rodmaking 218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbmaulucci@adelphia.netbob@downandacross.com --=====================_35182966==_.ALT Dear friends:The July 2001 issue of Power Fibers is now available for download.http://www.powerfibers.comThanks for your continued support, and I look forward to yourfeedback. Bob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.com,the online magazine for bamboo rodmaking218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellular bmaulucci@adelphia.netbob@downandacross.com --=====================_35182966==_.ALT-- from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Jun 30 21:56:46 2001 f612ujZ13812 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Payne "Highland" taper Hi all,as I'm currently working on several blonde Payne rods (my firstblondes) Ifigured I would revisit Payne's beautiful web page and spotted a rod thatcaught myattention when it was first re-introduced a year or more ago, "The Highland".My question is, "was the Highland a grade or an actual taper, in itselfdifferent than the 97, 98 and so on"?? I know it was cheaper to competewith theMills rods from Leonard but were they built on existing tapers or did theyhavetheir own style??I even think I'm going to wrap one of these rods in the moss greentipped redHighland scheme. Any info on this rod other than the stuff provided on theirweb pagewould be appreciated.