from rkrees@mcn.net Sun Jul 1 07:02:13 2001 f61C2CZ18083 Subject: Slow List? aOI donêt believe that I have ever seen this list this slow is everyone gonefishing or has my serverbooted me againRon from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Sun Jul 1 08:29:03 2001 f61DT2Z19247 Subject: New Powerfibers Online Checked the Powerfibers site last night and saw that Bob has uploaded thelatest version of Powerfibers online magazine. Bob has done another great job! Joe=================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Sun Jul 1 09:15:26 2001 f61EFPZ19764 Sun, 1 Jul 2001 15:15:23 +0100 Subject: Re: New Powerfibers Online The 'magazine'goes from strength to strength, well done all...... Bamboo Joe wrote: Checked the Powerfibers site last night and saw that Bob has uploaded thelatest version of Powerfibers online magazine. Bob has done another great job! Joe=================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". from bob@downandacross.com Sun Jul 1 09:24:32 2001 f61EOVZ20014 Subject: Re: New Powerfibers Online Thanks Paul and Joe. "We" appreciate that. This magazine is a collaboration, I just lay it out and gather the stuff.Best regards,Bob At 03:13 PM 7/1/2001 +0100, you wrote:The 'magazine'goes from strength to strength, well done all...... Bamboo Joe wrote: Checked the Powerfibers site last night and saw that Bob has uploadedthelatest version of Powerfibers online magazine. Bob has done another great job! Joe=================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". from setissma@email.msn.com Sun Jul 1 11:12:56 2001 f61GCtZ21290 Sun, 1 Jul 2001 09:12:48 -0700 Subject: nodeless question FILETIME=[AC1FA360:01C10248] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodeless =construction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write down =whether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would it =matter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences with these = Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a = about nodeless construction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot = write down whether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, = it matter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences with = products for nodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and = this. Jeff =Schaeffer from saweiss@flash.net Sun Jul 1 11:25:10 2001 f61GPAZ22146 f61GP5l107028;Sun, 1 Jul 2001 12:25:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Slow List? Organization: Prodigy Internet Still here. Silent but vigilant.Steve I donêt believe that I have ever seen this list this slow is everyone gonefishing or has my serverbooted me againRon from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Jul 1 11:46:02 2001 f61Gk1Z22577 Sun, 1 Jul 2001 13:45:16 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: nodeless question --------------5293ED1BCFC492FFDECD24F9 Jeff,I believe Chris's web site has a complete set of detailed instructions onbuilding nodeless,Shawn setissma wrote: At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodelessconstruction.However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write down whether he gluedsplineswith Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would it matter? I would welcome some about personal experiences with these products for nodeless construction.Chris,maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer --------------5293ED1BCFC492FFDECD24F9 Jeff, has a complete set of detailed instructions on building nodeless, Shawnsetissma wrote: AtGreyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodeless construction.However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write down whether he gluedsplines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would it matter? I would welcomesome ideas about personal experiences with these products for nodeless Schaeffer --------------5293ED1BCFC492FFDECD24F9-- from bluefin_1999@yahoo.com Sun Jul 1 12:02:26 2001 f61H2PZ22891 2001 10:02:25 PDT Subject: Re: nodeless question That is all I have used..BUT I am FAR from an expertyet....can we get some input from the "Masters" please? Also can you use Titebond for everything ? This I havenot tried.... Regards, BF--- setissma wrote:At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminarabout nodeless construction. However, in lookingover my notes, I forgot to write down whether heglued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also,would it matter? I would welcome some ideas aboutpersonal experiences with these products fornodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarifythis. Jeff Schaeffer __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from DNHayashida@aol.com Sun Jul 1 12:39:28 2001 f61HdRZ23602 Subject: Re: nodeless question I use Tiebond II Extend, it's water resistant. Do not use for ferrules. Everything else - yes. Including wraps, where it works like a color preserver, but it imparts a blotchy mottled appearance.Darryl In a message dated 7/1/01 10:02:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bluefin_1999@yahoo.com writes: Also can you use Titebond for everything ? This I havenot tried.... I use Tiebond II Extend, it's water resistant. Do not use for ferrules. Everything else - yes. Including wraps, where it works like a color preserver, but it imparts a blotchy mottled appearance.Darryl In a message dated 7/1/01 10:02:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bluefin_1999@yahoo.com writes: Also can youuse Titebond for everything ? This I havenot tried.... from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Sun Jul 1 12:45:46 2001 f61HjjZ23826 Subject: Re: nodeless question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day 2000, he was using =Titebond II for demo rods, and Hide Glue for his for sale rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf joints. I did however =buy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips up. Did =notice that the liquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than the =Titebond II. Someone was telling me that the liquid hide glue is not as =good as the ground hide glue. Joe Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:17 PMSubject: nodeless question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodeless =construction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write down =whether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would it =matter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences with these = Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day = rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf = did however buy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips = Did notice that the liquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than = good as the ground hide glue. Joe other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message ----- setissma Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 = PMSubject: nodeless =question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a = about nodeless construction. However, in looking over my notes, I = write down whether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. = it matter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences with = products for nodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and = this. Schaeffer from sats@gte.net Sun Jul 1 14:37:24 2001 f61JbNZ25181 Subject: 7 1/2 3p 3wt? What's a good taper for a person who's been throwing graphite or glass allhislife? Fairly fast but with a little "life" in it, if you know what i mean?---- ------------------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/sats from horsesho@ptd.net Sun Jul 1 17:12:17 2001 f61MCGZ26818 Subject: Re: 7 1/2 3p 3wt? If your willing to go to a #4 the 7 1/2' 3pc. Granger can't be beat. A #4 willdoeverything a #2 or 3 will do and more. Marty Terry Kirkpatrick wrote: What's a good taper for a person who's been throwing graphite or glass allhislife? Fairly fast but with a little "life" in it, if you know what i mean?---- ------------------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/sats from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Jul 1 17:27:33 2001 f61MRXZ27191 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Original guide spacing Payne 97 Anyone have the original guide spacing of a Payne 97? Any othercomments about the"Original" rods appearance would be greatly appreciated., TIA, Shawn from splitcane@home.com Sun Jul 1 18:06:04 2001 f61N63Z28002 ;Sun, 1 Jul 2001 16:05:58 -0700 Subject: Re: New Powerfibers Online My hat is off to Bob and the crew... Another fine addition to the library,they just keep getting better... The knowledge, effort and sacrifice of there personal time is greatlyappreciated... Thanks, Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ;-) Dear friends:The July 2001 issue of Power Fibers is now available for download.http://www.powerfibers.com Thanks for your continued support, and I look forward to your feedback. Bob Maulucci from Mark_Dyba@hotmail.com Sun Jul 1 22:06:06 2001 f62366Z00528 Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:05:52 -0700 Subject: Lon Blauvelt FILETIME=[E7705CB0:01C102A3] I have lost the e-mail address of Lon, can someone provide me with it. Thanks, Mark----- Original Message ----- Subject: Original guide spacing Payne 97 Anyone have the original guide spacing of a Payne 97? Any othercomments about the"Original" rods appearance would be greatly appreciated., TIA, Shawn from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Sun Jul 1 22:29:01 2001 f623T0Z00899 Sun, 1 Jul 2001 23:28:58 -0400 Subject: Reconditioning Cork Grips A friend called today and indicated he had two rods one a restored Grangerand the other an old Fenwick fiberglass that the cork handles are becomingdry and deteriorating. Wanted to know what he could put on the cork to helppreserve it. I didn't have a good answer but told him I knew who to ask. Anybody have any ideas on how to treat the cork to preserve it? ThanksTim Wilhelm from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Jul 1 22:34:10 2001 f623Y9Z01108 Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:34:04 -0700 Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips Tim,I've heard of putting a drop or two baby oil on one's hands then lightlymassaging the oil into the grip. I've never done it myself, but I have heard ofit... Harry Tim Wilhelm wrote: Anybody have any ideas on how to treat the cork to preserve it? --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from Nodewrrior@aol.com Sun Jul 1 22:37:53 2001 f623brZ01299 Subject: Re: 7 1/2 3p 3wt? Let me help you eliminate a GREAT little taper. The Fred Divine in the Jack Howell book is wonderful, but on the delicate side of mellow. Although I wouln't say it is slow by any means, I certainly can't call it fast. I've made one of them for a guy and am finally getting around to making one forme Rob Hoffhines from horsesho@ptd.net Mon Jul 2 05:12:18 2001 f62ACIZ04780 sender ) Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips Hey Harry, Stop talking dirty! Marty Harry Boyd wrote: Tim,I've heard of putting a drop or two baby oil on one's hands then lightlymassaging the oil into the grip. I've never done it myself, but I have heardofit... Harry Tim Wilhelm wrote: Anybody have any ideas on how to treat the cork to preserve it? --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from dannyt@frisurf.no Mon Jul 2 05:24:27 2001 f62AOQZ05135 (MET DST)User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh- Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips :-) From: none Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 06:10:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips Hey Harry, Stop talking dirty! Marty Harry Boyd wrote: Tim,I've heard of putting a drop or two baby oil on one's hands then lightlymassaging the oil into the grip. I've never done it myself, but I have heardofit... Harry Tim Wilhelm wrote: Anybody have any ideas on how to treat the cork to preserve it? --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Jul 2 05:54:27 2001 f62AsPZ05677 f62ArsS34478; Subject: Re: nodeless question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Payne 101. If you like them a wee bit fast, this one is lovely. Peter Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:44 AMSubject: Re: nodeless question When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day 2000, he was using =Titebond II for demo rods, and Hide Glue for his for sale rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf joints. I did however =buy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips up. Did =notice that the liquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than the =Titebond II. Someone was telling me that the liquid hide glue is not as =good as the ground hide glue. Joe = Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:17 PMSubject: nodeless question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodeless =construction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write down =whether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would it =matter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences with these = Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer Payne 101. If you like them a wee bit = one is lovely. Peter ----- Original Message ----- Joe rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 =3:44 AMSubject: Re: nodeless =question When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day = rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf = I did however buy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three = is not as good as the ground hide glue. Joe = East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one hand and a cigar in = other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message ----- setissma Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 = PMSubject: nodeless =question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a = seminar about nodeless construction. However, in looking over my = forgot to write down whether he glued splines with Titebond, or = Also, would it matter? I would welcome some ideas about personal = with these products for nodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and = clarify this. Schaeffer from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Jul 2 05:58:44 2001 f62AwgZ05890 f62AwaS34857; Subject: Re: nodeless question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. OOOOPS! Wrong answer, wrong question. That was meant as an answer to Terry =Kirkpatrick. The reply that goes with YOUR note is this one - why does anyone use =hide glue these days? Not that I think they shouldn't; it's just that I =would have thought that they were a bit passe. Peter Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:44 AMSubject: Re: nodeless question When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day 2000, he was using =Titebond II for demo rods, and Hide Glue for his for sale rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf joints. I did however =buy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips up. Did =notice that the liquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than the =Titebond II. Someone was telling me that the liquid hide glue is not as =good as the ground hide glue. Joe = Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:17 PMSubject: nodeless question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodeless =construction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write down =whether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would it =matter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences with these = Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer OOOOPS! Wrong answer, wrong question. Thatwas = answer to Terry Kirkpatrick. The reply that goes with YOUR note = passe. Peter ----- Original Message ----- Joe rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 =3:44 AMSubject: Re: nodeless =question When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day = rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf = I did however buy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three = is not as good as the ground hide glue. Joe = East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one hand and a cigar in = other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message ----- setissma Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 = PMSubject: nodeless =question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a = seminar about nodeless construction. However, in looking over my = forgot to write down whether he glued splines with Titebond, or = Also, would it matter? I would welcome some ideas about personal = with these products for nodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and = clarify this. Schaeffer from bassmeister_2000@yahoo.com Mon Jul 2 06:30:20 2001 f62BUJZ06281 2001 04:30:19 PDT Subject: Re: Lon Blauvelt --- Mark Dyba wrote:I have lost the e-mail address of Lon, can someone provide mewith it. Thanks, MarkHi Mark,I don't think Mr. Blauvelt does e-mail, although he had enoughforesight to maintain a web presence. Contact us by Phone or Mail:Lon Blauvelt 15 Town Landing Road Falmouth, Maine 04105 1-207-781-5235 The above was clipped from that site.Best,joe =====Joe MulveyNashua, NH -- USA __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Mon Jul 2 07:29:39 2001 f62CTdZ06872 Subject: Re: Lon Blauvelt f62CTdZ06873 Here it is: bamboosfly@aol.com John K.-----Original Message----- rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Subject: Lon Blauvelt I have lost the e-mail address of Lon, can someone provide me with it. Thanks, Mark----- Original Message -----From: Shawn Pineo Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 4:31 PMSubject: Original guide spacing Payne 97 Anyone have the original guide spacing of a Payne 97? Any othercomments about the"Original" rods appearance would be greatly appreciated., TIA, Shawn from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Jul 2 09:45:56 2001 f62EjtZ10519 Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Tim mixing it with some warm water. Then take a SOFTtooth brush and lightly brush the cork. Then rinse the cork grip under =some cold water. This will clean itup and give the grip some moisture. Caution DO NOT USE DISH SOAP OR ANY =OTHER KIND OF SOAP! Only powdered laundry soap. DO NOT SCRUB =HARD(lightly only). Don't make it a paste just mix the soap in the =water(25% soap75% water). Dry with a paper towel and let air dry for a =few minutes. And make sure you let your friend do it! Ha Ha Ha ha.Tony Miller TimTry taking laundry soap (the powdered= mixing it with some warm water. Then= SOFTtooth brush and lightly brush the cork.= itup and give the grip some moisture. = USE DISH SOAP OR ANY OTHER KIND OF SOAP! Only powdered laundry soap. DO= SCRUB HARD(lightly only). Don't make it a paste just mix the soap in the = water(25% soap75% water). Dry with a paper towel and let air dry for a = minutes. And make sure you let your friend do it! Ha Ha Ha =ha.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from jmpio@nhbm.com Mon Jul 2 09:50:44 2001 f62EohZ10837 Subject: RE: Newbee wants help. There is hardly anybody at all in the Artesia area, what makes you thinkthere's gonna be a rodmaker? Just kidding, I hope the potential studentfinds a mentor, but that is sure a tough place to try to find one. -----Original Message----- Subject: Newbee wants help. Is there anyone in the Artesia N.M. area thatwould help someone get started.Contact me off list.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Mon Jul 2 10:07:23 2001 f62F7MZ11568 Subject: Re: Newbee wants help. Don't say that...I'm being transferred to Artesia....I am hoping there isnot a shortage of trout as well as people....----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Newbee wants help. There is hardly anybody at all in the Artesia area, what makes you thinkthere's gonna be a rodmaker? Just kidding, I hope the potential studentfinds a mentor, but that is sure a tough place to try to find one. -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 4:55 PM Subject: Newbee wants help. Is there anyone in the Artesia N.M. area thatwould help someone get started.Contact me off list.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from parataper@hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 10:27:07 2001 f62FR7Z12399 Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:26:54 -0700 HTTP; Mon, 02 Jul 2001 15:26:54 GMT FILETIME=[6C97B610:01C1030B] Hi all, MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Jul 2 12:01:37 2001 f62H1aZ15871 0400From: "Tony Miller" Subject: Re:Reconditioning Cork Grips This is a multi-part message in MIME format. One more thing.Someone has brought this to my attention.So I will clarify.In Tim's case the grip sounded to be unsaveable.So I suggested a Soft Brush and a very light touch. This has produced =excellent results on some restorations that had almost unsaveable grips. =However I do NOT recommend this approach damage the cork . You must use a very light touch. For grips that are =slightly soiled I suggest using your hands and not a brush. If the grip =is really bad go ahead and usea soft brush lightly. If it still doesn't work then cork replacement =should be considered.I hope this clarifies the process, I took it for granted that all were =thinking the grip was reallybad. I would not want some one ruining a good grip because they took a =brush to it. Tim's gripsounded like they were considering replacement.And I thought this would be a good last ditch attempt. It has saved some =grips for me.Tony Miller One morething.Someone has brought this to attention.So I willclarify.In Tim's case the gripsounded = unsaveable.So I suggested a Soft Brushand = light touch. This has produced excellent results on some restorations = approach you scrub too hard you will damage the cork . You must use a very light = If the grip is really bad go ahead and usea soft brush lightly. If it = work then cork replacement should be considered.I hope this clarifies the = it for granted that all were thinking the grip was really some = a good grip because they took a brush to it. Tim's gripsounded like they were = replacement.And I thought this would be a= ditch attempt. It has saved some grips for me.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Jul 2 12:50:53 2001 f62HoqZ17170 KAA20644 KAA07273 (5.5.2650.21) "'petermckean@netspace.net.au'" Subject: RE: nodeless question very very very strong joint and has to be soaked in water for a looooooooongtime before it fails. Stradavarie violins have stood up for hundreds of yearsin all sorts of humidities and are still together. It can be made waterresistant and takes about 300 lbs. per square inch to pull apart. The liquid islousy but the old stuff is great. Used it every day for 8 years when I was aluthier. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 4:56 AM Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: nodeless question OOOOPS! Wrong answer, wrong question. That was meant as an answer to TerryKirkpatrick. The reply that goes with YOUR note is this one - why does anyone use hideglue these days? Not that I think they shouldn't; it's just that I would havethought that they were a bit passe. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Bamboo Joe Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:44 AMSubject: Re: nodeless question When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day 2000, he was usingTitebond II for demo rods, and Hide Glue for his for sale rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf joints. I did however buysome Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips up. Did notice that theliquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than the Titebond II. Someonewas telling me that the liquid hide glue is not as good as the ground hide glue. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one hand and a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message ----- From: setissma Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:17 PMSubject: nodeless question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodelessconstruction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write downwhether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would it matter? Iwould welcome some ideas about personal experiences with these products Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer from lblove@omniglobal.net Mon Jul 2 13:06:08 2001 f62I67Z17846 , Subject: RE: Newbee wants help. But they have a great spring creek withreally big rainbows over there...Artesia is not too bad, you could be transferred to Hobbs or Lovington :^)Tony,The student in question may wish to contactthe Mesilla Valley Flyfishers Club for a possible contact. If you want the address I can send it your way. laterBrad -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Newbee wants help. Don't say that...I'm being transferred to Artesia....I am hoping there isnot a shortage of trout as well as people....----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Newbee wants help. There is hardly anybody at all in the Artesia area, what makes you thinkthere's gonna be a rodmaker? Just kidding, I hope the potential studentfinds a mentor, but that is sure a tough place to try to find one. -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 4:55 PM Subject: Newbee wants help. Is there anyone in the Artesia N.M. area thatwould help someone get started.Contact me off list.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from GRNMTRODS@aol.com Mon Jul 2 13:30:46 2001 f62IUkZ18742 Subject: Rod taper List Does anyone have a taper for the Driggs River special////////????????........... Does any one have an opinion on the rod? thank you ,Jim List Does anyone have a taper for the Driggs River special////////????????........... Does any one have an opinion on the rod? thank you ,Jim from harms1@pa.net Mon Jul 2 15:35:17 2001 f62KZGZ22949 Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips Tony and others, Could someone explain what the issue is here? Are you simply wondering howto clean up a dirty grip, or is there some special consideration inrestoring an old grip that is vulnerable somehow? Either way, what problemsdoes cork suffer that I don't know about, such that only one kind of soapshould be used for cleaning? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips TimTry taking laundry soap (the powdered kind) andmixing it with some warm water. Then take a SOFTtooth brush and lightly brush the cork. Then rinse the cork grip under somecold water. This will clean itup and give the grip some moisture. Caution DO NOT USE DISH SOAP OR ANYOTHER KIND OF SOAP! Only powdered laundry soap. DO NOT SCRUBHARD(lightlyonly). Don't make it a paste just mix the soap in the water(25% soap75%water). Dry with a paper towel and let air dry for a few minutes. And makesure you let your friend do it! Ha Ha Ha ha.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from harms1@pa.net Mon Jul 2 15:39:40 2001 f62KddZ23292 Subject: Re: nodeless question Apparently, hide glue will also break down under boiling water. So forthose of you who want to use it on your rods, you'll probably want to try toavoid placing your rods in boiling water. Patrick, can't one still buy the good, old stuff in powder (or pulverized)form some of the specialty woodworker catalogues like Constantine? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: nodeless question very very very strong joint and has to be soaked in water for alooooooooong time before it fails. Stradavarie violins have stood up forhundreds of years in all sorts of humidities and are still together. It canbe made water resistant and takes about 300 lbs. per square inch to pullapart. The liquid is lousy but the old stuff is great. Used it every day for8 years when I was a luthier. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 4:56 AM Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: nodeless question OOOOPS! Wrong answer, wrong question. That was meant as an answer to TerryKirkpatrick. The reply that goes with YOUR note is this one - why does anyone usehide glue these days? Not that I think they shouldn't; it's just that Iwould have thought that they were a bit passe. Peter ----- Original Message -----From: Bamboo Joe Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:44 AMSubject: Re: nodeless question When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day 2000, he was usingTitebond II for demo rods, and Hide Glue for his for sale rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf joints. I did howeverbuy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips up. Did noticethat the liquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than the TitebondII. Someone was telling me that the liquid hide glue is not as good as theground hide glue. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message -----From: setissma Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:17 PMSubject: nodeless question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodelessconstruction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write downwhether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would itmatter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences with theseproducts for nodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer from bob@downandacross.com Mon Jul 2 15:40:39 2001 f62KeXZ23440 Subject: Re: Rod taper --=====================_736686==_.ALT HI Jim:Try here:http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/Tapers/hexrod- archive.html#young The Driggs River (Wayne's post) is definitely my favorite hex rod so far, the Sir D a pretty close second.Bob At 02:30 PM 7/2/2001 -0400, GRNMTRODS@aol.com wrote:List Does anyone have a taper for the Driggs Riverspecial////////????????........... Does any one have an opinion on the rod? thank you ,Jim --=====================_736686==_.ALT HI Jim:Tryhere:http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/Tapers/hexrod- archive.html#youngThe Driggs River (Wayne's post) is definitely my favorite hex rod so far,the Sir D a pretty close second.BobAt 02:30 PM 7/2/2001 - 0400, GRNMTRODS@aol.com wrote:List Does anyone have a taper for the Driggs River special////////????????........... Does any one have an opinion on the rod? thank you , Jim --=====================_736686==_.ALT-- from caneman@clnk.com Mon Jul 2 16:37:02 2001 f62Lb1Z25725 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: nodeless question Bill and other's interested. You can still buy true hide glue at LuthierSupply Houses. Interntional Lutheirs Supply of Tulsa keeps it, as doesInternational Violin, Luthiers Merchantile and about any other. I stillhave some in the cabinet, but don't know what I'll ever use it for now! Later,Bob Patrick, can't one still buy the good, old stuff in powder (or pulverized)form some of the specialty woodworker catalogues like Constantine? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Cc: "Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 1:50 PMSubject: RE: nodeless question very very very strong joint and has to be soaked in water for alooooooooong time before it fails. Stradavarie violins have stood up forhundreds of years in all sorts of humidities and are still together. Itcanbe made water resistant and takes about 300 lbs. per square inch to pullapart. The liquid is lousy but the old stuff is great. Used it every dayfor8 years when I was a luthier. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 4:56 AM Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: nodeless question OOOOPS! Wrong answer, wrong question. That was meant as an answer to TerryKirkpatrick. The reply that goes with YOUR note is this one - why does anyone usehide glue these days? Not that I think they shouldn't; it's just that Iwould have thought that they were a bit passe. Peter ----- Original Message -----From: Bamboo Joe Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:44 AMSubject: Re: nodeless question When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day 2000, he was usingTitebond II for demo rods, and Hide Glue for his for sale rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf joints. I did howeverbuy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips up. Did noticethat the liquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than the TitebondII. Someone was telling me that the liquid hide glue is not as good astheground hide glue. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message -----From: setissma Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:17 PMSubject: nodeless question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodelessconstruction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write downwhether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would itmatter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences with theseproducts for nodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer from jmpio@nhbm.com Mon Jul 2 16:55:14 2001 f62LtDZ26360 Subject: RE: nodeless question Hide glue (the real stuff) is also usually available from woodworking supplyplaces. It is frequently used in restoration work. As I've alwaysunderstood it, hide glue had just a few disadvantages over modern glues.First was that it needed to be heated, this was inconvenient and a firehazard. Second it was not as strong as one would like for building thingslike chairs. Third, it was subject to problems with heat and moisture. Ofthese, I'd say only the last is a real disadvantage for rodmakers. Thefirst, inconvenience, is not really a disadvantage when compared to theinconveniences we will put up with with our high-tech epoxies (difficultmixing, glue failures from improper mixing, volatile fumes, short shelflife). And the second (strength), I'm not sure that rods face the same KINDof stresses as furniture, and I'd be willing to bet that those antique rodsthat delaminated, the delamination had a lot more to do with heat (beingleft in cars) than they did with spontaneous or stress-related glue failure. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: nodeless question Bill and other's interested. You can still buy true hide glue at LuthierSupply Houses. Interntional Lutheirs Supply of Tulsa keeps it, as doesInternational Violin, Luthiers Merchantile and about any other. I stillhave some in the cabinet, but don't know what I'll ever use it for now! Later,Bob Patrick, can't one still buy the good, old stuff in powder (or pulverized)form some of the specialty woodworker catalogues like Constantine? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Cc: "Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 1:50 PMSubject: RE: nodeless question very very very strong joint and has to be soaked in water for alooooooooong time before it fails. Stradavarie violins have stood up forhundreds of years in all sorts of humidities and are still together. Itcanbe made water resistant and takes about 300 lbs. per square inch to pullapart. The liquid is lousy but the old stuff is great. Used it every dayfor8 years when I was a luthier. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 4:56 AM Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: nodeless question OOOOPS! Wrong answer, wrong question. That was meant as an answer to TerryKirkpatrick. The reply that goes with YOUR note is this one - why does anyone usehide glue these days? Not that I think they shouldn't; it's just that Iwould have thought that they were a bit passe. Peter ----- Original Message -----From: Bamboo Joe Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:44 AMSubject: Re: nodeless question When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day 2000, he was usingTitebond II for demo rods, and Hide Glue for his for sale rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf joints. I did howeverbuy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips up. Did noticethat the liquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than the TitebondII. Someone was telling me that the liquid hide glue is not as good astheground hide glue. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message -----From: setissma Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:17 PMSubject: nodeless question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodelessconstruction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write downwhether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would itmatter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences with theseproducts for nodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Jul 2 17:02:16 2001 f62M2FZ26674 Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Well here are some things to consider.Not are cork grips are equal. (especially on Trade rods)They used Cork sheet, Cork rings of varying quality,cork composite, Cork cut in the opposite direction.So you can see that this may effect how you might clean a grip because =of varying textures and quality.Not to mention Different glues. I have found that if you use a dish soap =or a degreasing type soap that it just doesn't work. Here's why. The =soap has something in it that takes longer to break down in water. What =you end up with is a cork grip that is permanently blackened and slimy. =Ask me how I know this LOL.All I know is that laundry soap has something in it thatcuts fish slime (real good) and it leaves no residue, andrinses easily. Here again I only mean powdered soap.Liquid laundry soap won't work either. Maybe it is because powder =dissolves easier or something . I can't really say for sure. I just know =it works for me.best regardsTony Miller consider.Not are cork grips are equal. = rods)They used Cork sheet, Cork rings = quality,cork composite, Cork cut in theopposite = direction.So you can see that this may effecthow = clean a grip because of varying textures and quality.Not to mention Different glues. I have= if you use a dish soap or a degreasing type soap that it just doesn't = Here's why. The soap has something in it that takes longer to break down = water. What you end up with is a cork grip that is permanently blackened = slimy. Ask me how I know this LOL.All I know is that laundry soap has = it thatcuts fish slime (real good) and it = residue, andrinses easily. Here again I only mean = soap.Liquid laundry soap won't work either. = because powder dissolves easier or something . I can't really say for = just know it works for me.best regardsTony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from jojo@ipa.net Mon Jul 2 18:07:57 2001 f62N7uZ28078 Subject: Re: nodeless question Anything that has the ability to grip glass and rip out shards as it drieshas to be plenty strong. I used to do this making glue chipped signs -- anold, almost forgotten method. Gee, does this mean I need to break out theglue pot and the granules? M-D very very very strong joint and has to be soaked in water for alooooooooong time before it fails. Stradavarie violins have stood up forhundreds of years in all sorts of humidities and are still together. It canbe made water resistant and takes about 300 lbs. per square inch to pullapart. The liquid is lousy but the old stuff is great. Used it every day for8 years when I was a luthier. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- OOOOPS! Wrong answer, wrong question. That was meant as an answer to TerryKirkpatrick. The reply that goes with YOUR note is this one - why does anyone usehide glue these days? Not that I think they shouldn't; it's just that Iwould have thought that they were a bit passe. Peter From: Bamboo Joe When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day 2000, he was usingTitebond II for demo rods, and Hide Glue for his for sale rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf joints. I did howeverbuy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips up. Did noticethat the liquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than the TitebondII. Someone was telling me that the liquid hide glue is not as good as theground hide glue. Joe From: setissma Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:17 PMSubject: nodeless question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodelessconstruction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write downwhether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would itmatter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences with theseproducts for nodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer from harms1@pa.net Mon Jul 2 18:55:05 2001 f62Nt4Z28769 Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips All, No doubt Tony's use of laundry soap is successful, and I can see why onewould need to take care with old and fragile cork. But, aside from theability to cut through grease, slime, and other crud, isn't the realconsideration with old grips simply to avoid improper abrasives? I haven't given this issue a lot of consideration, but in the past, I havesimply used a sponge and kitchen-spray products like Simple Green, 409,Clorox Clean-Up, etc.--no abrasives at all. All of these have worked well done with this thread. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips Well here are some things to consider.Not are cork grips are equal. (especially on Trade rods)They used Cork sheet, Cork rings of varying quality,cork composite, Cork cut in the opposite direction.So you can see that this may effect how you might clean a grip because ofvarying textures and quality.Not to mention Different glues. I have found that if you use a dish soap ora degreasing type soap that it just doesn't work. Here's why. The soap hassomething in it that takes longer to break down in water. What you end upwith is a cork grip that is permanently blackened and slimy. Ask me how Iknow this LOL.All I know is that laundry soap has something in it thatcuts fish slime (real good) and it leaves no residue, andrinses easily. Here again I only mean powdered soap.Liquid laundry soap won't work either. Maybe it is because powder dissolveseasier or something . I can't really say for sure. I just know it works forme.best regardsTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from jczimny@dol.net Mon Jul 2 19:20:11 2001 f630KAZ29182 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: nodeless question Properly applied hide glue is a lot more water resistant than you'd think. It isstronger in tensil strength and shear strength than the PVA's you can buy inthehardware store.John Z from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Jul 2 19:37:09 2001 f630b7Z29722 Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Lets not get confused here.I'm Not saying to use an abrasive.The only time you need to use an abrasive is if you want to change the =shape of the cork.Those products you are using will work too.I'm just saying I've had grips that a simple washing would not take all =the gunk off. So I used a very softtooth brush to help it along. My hands would probably be more abrasive = from the calluses from planning.If you can't get dirt off your hands what do you dojust hope it wears off. that's a joke don't take any offense to it.And lets just say you get overzealous about using a soft brush and you =somehow wear a spot, just sand a thousands or two off the grip. Are you =worried thatsome big time collector will say "hey, there is a thousands worth of =cork missing from this grip". pristine you probably should do nothing at all to it.Just one mans thoughtsNo offense intended.Tony Miller Lets not get confusedhere. abrasive.The only time you need to use an = you want to change the shape of the cork.Those products you are using will too.I'm just saying I've had grips that a = softtooth brush to help it along. My hands = probably be more abrasive from the calluses from planning.If you can't get dirt off your hands = dojust hope it wears off. that's a joke = any offense to it.And lets just say you get overzealous = the grip. Are you worried thatsome big time collector will say "hey, = thousands worth of cork missing from this grip".Not likely. And not to mention that if = that pristine you probably should do nothing= it.Just one mansthoughtsNo offense intended.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from ctn45555@centurytel.net Mon Jul 2 20:00:01 2001 f63100Z00175 f630xw721279 Organization: Smith & Boyd Subject: 2 coats or 3? I am in the throes of dip varnishing my first rod (spar urethane). Iused steel wool to degloss the first coat and 1200 grit sandpaper totouch-up any dust spots. The rod is a Paul Young Midge taper. The secondcoat turned out really nice. I am considering staying with just 2 coats.My concern is that A.) I don't want to dampen the action of the rod,and, B.) Things have gone so well to this point that I don't want totempt fate. That said, if the rod really needs 3 coats then that's whatI will do. My question is, is there anything wrong with 2 coats of polyon a light trout rod? Will I affect the quality of the rod by notputting on a 3rd coat? Cosmetics at this point (2nd coat) are fine to myeye. As always, any advice is greatly appreciated, Chad S. Boyd from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Jul 2 20:36:26 2001 f631aQZ00716 SAA01125; Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Well maybe this is heresy, What I have used to clean cork is Simple Green. Spray it with diluted =simply green rub in, wait a couple of minutes and rinse with H2O. The =cork comes out clean and no damage. Adam Vigil Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:00 PMSubject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips Well here are some things to consider.Not are cork grips are equal. (especially on Trade rods) Well maybe this isheresy, What I have used to clean cork is = Spray it with diluted simply green rub in, wait a couple of minutes and = with H2O. The cork comes out clean and no damage. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 =3:00 PMSubject: Re: Reconditioning = Grips consider.Not are cork grips are equal. = Trade rods) from channer@frontier.net Mon Jul 2 21:19:43 2001 f632JgZ01619 Subject: Re: 2 coats or 3? Chad;It's YOUR rod, finish it however you please! If 2 coats is good enuf foryou, then ,by G, it will just have to be good enuf for the rest of us. Iuse spar varnish and that's all I put on, and all I will put on. Thereare no entries in the Book of Standards for bamboo fly rods, invent yourown.John Amy & Chad wrote: I am in the throes of dip varnishing my first rod (spar urethane). Iused steel wool to degloss the first coat and 1200 grit sandpaper totouch-up any dust spots. The rod is a Paul Young Midge taper. The secondcoat turned out really nice. I am considering staying with just 2 coats.My concern is that A.) I don't want to dampen the action of the rod,and, B.) Things have gone so well to this point that I don't want totempt fate. That said, if the rod really needs 3 coats then that's whatI will do. My question is, is there anything wrong with 2 coats of polyon a light trout rod? Will I affect the quality of the rod by notputting on a 3rd coat? Cosmetics at this point (2nd coat) are fine to myeye. As always, any advice is greatly appreciated, Chad S. Boyd from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Jul 2 21:26:51 2001 f632QoZ01881 Subject: Re: nodeless question But isn't there two kinds of hideglue? The one we want comes in powderform and must be mixed, we do not want the premixed if I am not mistaken. JohnZ. your input please.Bret in powder form and must be mixed, we do not want the premixed if I am not mistaken. your input please.Bret from robertgkope@home.com Mon Jul 2 23:18:13 2001 f634ICZ03360 femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: Re: nodeless question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Bret, It's much more complicated than that. Hide glues (ignoring the liquid =stuff) come from different animal hides so you can get different hide =glues depending on the species of animal the hide came from. You can =also get it in granular or ground form. Better hide glues from luthier =supply places are also available in different gram strengths. In =general, a higher gram strength glue is stronger, but has a shorter =working time before it sets, and it can set in seconds because it is =essentially a gelatin, and gels as it cools. For maximum strength this =gelled structure should not be disturbed as the glue dries. You can =extend the working time by mixing it thinner or by adding urea to it, =but either of these also makes it weaker. And, whoever made the comment about it not being strong enough for =chairs, furniture recovered from Egyptian tombs was glued up with hide =glue, and those joints are still intact after thousands of years. -- Robert Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 7:24 PMSubject: Re: nodeless question But isn't there two kinds of hideglue? The one we want comes in = and must be mixed, we do not want the premixed if I am not mistaken. = Bret, It's much more complicated than = glues (ignoring the liquid stuff) come from different animal hides so = get different hide glues depending on the species of animal the hide = shorter working time before it sets, and it can set in seconds because = essentially a gelatin, and gels as it cools. For maximum strength this = And, whoever made the comment aboutit = years. -- Robert ----- Original Message ----- Grhghlndr@aol.com Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 =7:24 PMSubject: Re: nodeless =questionBut isn't= your input please. Bret = from bob@downandacross.com Mon Jul 2 23:30:10 2001 f634U8Z03674 Subject: Re: power fibers --=====================_30059196==_.ALT Thanks so much. I wish we could come out more often also, but we need to maintain quality over quantity. Having set our goal of four issues a year has helped us to not miss one yet, and to have good topics. Thanks forreading.Bob At 11:37 PM 7/2/2001 -0400, you wrote:I too think that the Power Fibers is GREAT. I have gotten alot of great info from it. Just wish it came out more often. I really like Tony's dip tube. It will fit my space. Thanks to all who write in the Power Fiber --=====================_30059196==_.ALT Thanks so much. I wish we could come out more often also, but we need tomaintain quality over quantity. Having set our goal of four issues a yearhas helped us to not miss one yet, and to have good topics. Thanks forreading.BobAt 11:37 PM 7/2/2001 -0400, you wrote:I toothink that the Power Fibers is GREAT. more often. Thanks to all who write in the Power Fiber from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Tue Jul 307:51:29 2001 f63CpSZ08637 2001 05:51:25 PDT Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips This is not exactly the same issue but related. I havea half-dozen preformed grips that I got off of ebaythat are probably 20-30 years old but in as- newcondition. The problem is, they seem to be a littledry and consequently a little brittle. Is thereanything that will restore some of the suppleness? Thanks,Bill Walters --- Tony Miller wrote:Well here are some things to consider.Not are cork grips are equal. (especially on Traderods)They used Cork sheet, Cork rings of varying quality,cork composite, Cork cut in the opposite direction.So you can see that this may effect how you mightclean a grip because of varying textures andquality.Not to mention Different glues. I have found that ifyou use a dish soap or a degreasing type soap thatit just doesn't work. Here's why. The soap hassomething in it that takes longer to break down inwater. What you end up with is a cork grip that ispermanently blackened and slimy. Ask me how I knowthis LOL.All I know is that laundry soap has something in itthatcuts fish slime (real good) and it leaves noresidue, andrinses easily. Here again I only mean powdered soap.Liquid laundry soap won't work either. Maybe it isbecause powder dissolves easier or something . Ican't really say for sure. I just know it works forme.best regardsTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from dmaurer@hasbro.com Tue Jul 3 08:57:50 2001 f63DvoZ10947 "'Adam Vigil'" Subject: RE: Reconditioning Cork Grips More heresy, I've had good luck with Goo Gone and a soft rag. It's citrus based so itprobably leaves a little lemon oil on the cork which may have the samebenefits that baby oil does. Dave Maurer ----------From: Adam Vigil Sent: Monday, July 2, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips Well maybe this is heresy, What I have used to clean cork is Simple Green. Spray it with dilutedsimply green rub in, wait a couple of minutes and rinse with H2O. The corkcomes out clean and no damage. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Miller Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:00 PMSubject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips Well here are some things to consider.Not are cork grips are equal. (especially on Trade rods) from jmpio@nhbm.com Tue Jul 3 09:32:01 2001 f63EW0Z12175 Subject: RE: nodeless question This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. And, whoever made the comment about it not being strong enough forchairs,furniture recovered from Egyptian tombs was > glued up with hide glue, andthose joints are still intact after thousands of years. I made that comment, and I'd have to add that those Egyptian chairs havenotheld anyone's tuckus during those thousands of years (unless you buy intothe whole Egyptian life in the afterlife theory and believe those Pharoahsare down there partying). The fact is that most modern furniture makersleft the hide glue behind because it doesn't stand up as well to thestresses that furniture joints tend to see, wracking being the main problem.As I pointed out in my original post, that may or may not be relevant torodmaking, and I would suspect is not relevant to the luthiers who certainlyhope their instruments will not be twisted around their axes. The originalpoint I made was simply that hide glue has been mainly left behind by thefurniture industry and for a variety of good reasons, but that should notnecessarily matter to rodmakers. comment about it Egyptian those joints are still intact after thousands ofyears.I made that comment, and I'd have to addthat those of The because it doesn't stand up as well to the stresses that furniture jointstend original post, that may or may not be relevant to rodmaking, and I would suspect isnot relevant to the luthiers who certainly hope their instruments will not be hide glue has been mainly left behind by the furniture industry and for a variety of good reasons, but that should not necessarily matter to rodmakers. from jczimny@dol.net Tue Jul 3 10:40:11 2001 f63FeBZ15043 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: nodeless question --------------FF3E4A3007D2C6DDB853FADA Correct. No premixed. Either the pearl or the granulated. Thepearl is better.JohnZ Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: But isn't there two kinds of hideglue? The one we want comesin powder formand must be mixed, we do not want the premixed if I am notmistaken. John Z.your input please.Bret --------------FF3E4A3007D2C6DDB853FADA Correct. No premixed. Either the pearl or the granulated. The pearl isbetter.JohnZGrhghlndr@aol.com wrote:But isn't formand must be mixed, we do your inputplease.Bret --------------FF3E4A3007D2C6DDB853FADA-- from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Tue Jul 3 11:05:51 2001 f63G5oZ16111 2001 09:05:50 PDT Subject: Hexrod Conversion question Hi, I ran a proven taper (Don Andersen's 7'9",5wt)through Hexrod and changed only the line weight, to a4wt, holding the stresses constant. Can I trust thenumbers with a straight-forward conversion like thisor will I need to tweak them in some way? I know thatI've read that Hexrod is good starting point but oftenthe numbers need to be tweaked. Just want to be surebefore I put all this work into it. Don't have quitethe amount of free time to experiment the way otherlist members do. Thanks. Bill Walters __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from caneman@clnk.com Tue Jul 3 11:20:08 2001 f63GK7Z17035 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: nodeless question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I used hide glue assembling and repairing many violins before I =found out I could go broke faster as a rodmaker than as a luthier. For =the application in instrument making, hide glue was MORE than strong =enough to give even hundreds of years of service. This is evidenced by =the existense of great instruments by Stradivarius, Guarnari, Stainer =and many others and of my pride and joy, an 1898 Martin 2-18 Guitar, =which was assembled with hide glue.As for its usefullness as a rodmaking adhesive? Keep in mind that =Pinky Gillum used hide glue on his rods. There are many very fishable =Gillum rods out there today, even though I don't know if I'd take a =$20,000 rod and beat it around the way I do my own. On the other hand, =I've had the honor of repairing 2 Gillum rods. Both had delaminations =in the tip section, which I promptly fired up the glue pot and repaired =with hide glue, although it was a race to get the repairs glued and =bound before the glue started to set. I understand now from one of the =listmembers that there are ways to decelarate the curing of hide glue =without thinning or adding water or whatever (use of a particular light =spectrum), but I didn't know that as there was no need when assembling a =violin with it. It may work well as a rod adhesive and would probably =certainly work well as a tip top and ferrule adhesive for those that pin =their ferrules, even though Ferrultite and some of the others out there =are much easier to work with and do just as good a job, BUT, why even =worry about it. Hide glue was used in instruments of the past because =it was THE glue of the time. I used hide glue on my violins for two =reasons. First, when you're selling someone a $2000 violin, they want =it glued up and built just like a Strat of the early 1700's. Not true of =modern cane rods and thier owners... they want something they can put =into service with as little care and maintenance as possible. Second =reason, ease of disassembly if I screwed it up. Removing an improperly =set violin neck is easy with hide glue (at one time had a steam =generator that would push steam through a needle you could insert =through a drilled hole), but would be near impossible to disassemble =with some of the modern (relative term) glues such as Nyatex, Epon, =URAC, Resorcinol, etc. At the very least you would break, crack or burn =the devil out of something trying to get it apart.I guess my point is, sure, hide glue was used on many of the older =classic rods, including rods made by H.S. Gillum, but we don't have to =worry about taking apart our rods to reassemble them if we screw up. =After all, the bamboo is cheap, especially compared to a fine piece of =backwood for an instrument (I once paid over $300 for one of the finest =pieces of fiddleback maple instrument back blanks I'd ever seen), so we =just throw it in the tomato stake pile and build another section. The =adhesives we have today are fantastic compared to hide glue... the =working time is wonderful, the waterproof/resistant qualities are great =and the durability is fantastic. Even though my good friend Ralph Moon =hates it (with good reason on his part), give me URAC or give me death! =*S*I'll keep my bag of hide glue around in case I ever find the need to =repair a cracked violin top but for the rods, I'll stick with the modern =adhesives. Later,Bob Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 9:34 AMSubject: RE: nodeless question And, whoever made the comment about it not being strong enough for =chairs, furniture recovered from Egyptian tombs was > glued up with hide =glue, and those joints are still intact after thousands of years. I made that comment, and I'd have to add that those Egyptian chairs =have not held anyone's tuckus during those thousands of years (unless =you buy into the whole Egyptian life in the afterlife theory and believe =those Pharoahs are down there partying). The fact is that most modern =furniture makers left the hide glue behind because it doesn't stand up =as well to the stresses that furniture joints tend to see, wracking =being the main problem. As I pointed out in my original post, that may =or may not be relevant to rodmaking, and I would suspect is not relevant =to the luthiers who certainly hope their instruments will not be twisted =around their axes. The original point I made was simply that hide glue =has been mainly left behind by the furniture industry and for a variety =of good reasons, but that should not necessarily matter to rodmakers. many violins before I found out I could go broke faster as a rodmaker = There are many very fishable Gillum rods out there today, even though I = know if I'd take a $20,000 rod and beat it around the way I do my = delaminations in the tip section, which I promptly fired up the glue pot = repaired with hide glue, although it was a race to get the repairs glued = listmembers that there are ways to decelarate the curing of hide glue = thinning or adding water or whatever (use of a particular light = didn't know that as there was no need when assembling a violin with = may work well as a rod adhesive and would probably certainly work well = Ferrultite and some of the others out there are much easier to work with = $2000 violin, they want it glued up and built just like a Strat of the = something they can put into service with as little care and maintenance = Removing an improperly set violin neck is easy with hide glue (at one = steam generator that would push steam through a needle you could insert = a drilled hole), but would be near impossible to disassemble with some = of something trying to get it apart. used on many of the older classic rods, including rods made by H.S. = we don't have to worry about taking apart our rods to reassemble them if = piece of backwood for an instrument (I once paid over $300 for one of = pieces of fiddleback maple instrument back blanks I'd ever seen), so we = we have today are fantastic compared to hide glue... the working time is = wonderful, the waterproof/resistant qualities are great and the = reason on his part), give me URAC or give me death! *S*I'll keep my bag of hide glue around in case I ever = the modern adhesives. Later,Bob ----- Original Message ----- jmpio@nhbm.com Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 = AMSubject: RE: nodeless =question and = joints are still intact after thousands of =years.I made that comment, and I'd have toadd = because it doesn't stand up as well to the stresses that furniture = original post, that may or may not be relevant to rodmaking, and I = suspect is not relevant to the luthiers who certainly hope their = simply that hide glue has been mainly left behind by the furniture = and for a variety of good reasons, but that should not necessarily = =rodmakers. from rmoon@ida.net Tue Jul 3 11:47:16 2001 f63GlFZ18066 Subject: [Fwd: eBay item 1161076020 (Ends Jul-05-01 111959 PDT ) - RalphMoon 7'4 Blank Bamboo] This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 29798345047155DBBFA5F9B8 Hey I know that advertissing is frowned upon, but I finally made it bigtime on ebay. Incidentally, the rod was not made by Frank Gift. I madeit for Frank Ralph --------------29798345047155DBBFA5F9B8 (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.21 1997/08/10) Mon Jul 2 15:45:06 2001) (63.227.57.156) Subject: eBay item 1161076020 (Ends Jul-05-01 111959 PDT ) - Ralph Moon7'4 Blank Bamboo See http://www.impsec.org/email-tools/procmail-security.html This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi Ralph: Sorry for the 'Mr. Moon'. Just an old midwestern habit. :-) Here's a link to the rod on eBay. I'd be curious to know if you recognizethe blanks and components. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1161076020&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=994357199&indexURL=0&rd=1 I'd love to take you up on your offer for guidance on rod building. My wifeand I are building a house down near the Arkansas River in central Colorado.The only thing I'm insisting on is a large workshop. ( With everything elseshe has planned I use those two magic words 'yes Dear'. ) So in time I'llhave the space to build some rods. Now, for the tools, time and talent... Take care, Dave (Ends Jul-05-01 111959 PDT ) - Ralph Moon 7'4 Blank Bamboo Fly Rod - GREAT!.url" Jul-05-01 111959 PDT ) - Ralph Moon 7'4 Blank Bamboo Fly Rod - GREAT!.url" [DEFAULT] [InternetShortcut] --------------29798345047155DBBFA5F9B8-- from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Jul 3 11:49:11 2001 f63GnAZ18261 Subject: Re: Hexrod Conversion question Bill, Be especially watchful of how the taper changes at the tip (0 and 5 inch stations). Sometimes Hexrod will reducethese too much when going to a lower lineweight. Itsa problem in the math somewhere. Anyway compare what Hexrodsays with some other 4wts of similar length and make surethese dimensions are reasonable.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Bill Walters wrote: Hi, I ran a proven taper (Don Andersen's 7'9",5wt)through Hexrod and changed only the line weight, to a4wt, holding the stresses constant. Can I trust thenumbers with a straight-forward conversion like thisor will I need to tweak them in some way? I know thatI've read that Hexrod is good starting point but oftenthe numbers need to be tweaked. Just want to be surebefore I put all this work into it. Don't have quitethe amount of free time to experiment the way otherlist members do. Thanks. Bill Walters __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from Mark_Dyba@hotmail.com Tue Jul 3 13:12:27 2001 f63ICQZ20417 Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:12:21 -0700 Subject: Re: [Binder weights FILETIME=[B447D950:01C103EB] Dear friends,How much weight should I use when binding a rod. As you can tell I amworking on my first rod. Also is there a relationship between weight amountsand the type of adhesive used for binding.----- Original Message ----- Mark Subject: [Fwd: eBay item 1161076020 (Ends Jul-05-01 111959 PDT ) - RalphMoon 7'4Blank Bamboo] Hey I know that advertissing is frowned upon, but I finally made it bigtime on ebay. Incidentally, the rod was not made by Frank Gift. I madeit for Frank Ralph from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Tue Jul 3 13:24:30 2001 f63IOTZ21083 Tue, 3 Jul 2001 14:23:38 -0400 claiming to be "oemcomputer" Subject: Re: 2 coats or 3? Chad, Its the thickness, not the number of coats , that matters, as varnishthickness and speed of withdrawl have an effect on the thickness. Acoupleof thousanths is all you need. (that's per flat, .005" overall diameter). Good lucktom ausfeldRochester, NY ----- Original Message ----- Subject: 2 coats or 3? I am in the throes of dip varnishing my first rod (spar urethane). Iused steel wool to degloss the first coat and 1200 grit sandpaper totouch-up any dust spots. The rod is a Paul Young Midge taper. The secondcoat turned out really nice. I am considering staying with just 2 coats.My concern is that A.) I don't want to dampen the action of the rod,and, B.) Things have gone so well to this point that I don't want totempt fate. That said, if the rod really needs 3 coats then that's whatI will do. My question is, is there anything wrong with 2 coats of polyon a light trout rod? Will I affect the quality of the rod by notputting on a 3rd coat? Cosmetics at this point (2nd coat) are fine to myeye. As always, any advice is greatly appreciated, Chad S. Boyd from DNHayashida@aol.com Tue Jul 3 14:19:26 2001 f63JJPZ23228 Subject: Bench Planes for rough planing A couple of weeks ago I was given a couple bench planes. After trying them out I find that it is easier to rough plane with a small bench plane. I was given a Union No.2 ( I first thought it was a No.3 the writing was crudded over and I thought the top sweep of the 2 was a 3), and a huge Stanley 605. In the size system I am talking about a 2 (about 7 inches long, 1.75 wide) is smaller than a 3 (about 8.5 inches long) and Stanley had what they called their Bedrock series where all the numbers started with 60x, so the 605would be a 5 size. I find the 2 to be the perfect size for rough planing for my hand size (small). But the 2 size is quite rare. Stanley stopped making them a long time ago. Lie-Nielsen makes a 2 size, but it is $235.00. Stanley still makes a 3 size, so they can still be bought fairly cheaply. Rodmakers with larger hands might do okay with a 3 size. If you happen to find a 2 or 3 size bench plane at a swap meet or old tool store, buy it and give it a try. I think you will like it for rough planing. A Stanley No.2 will cost anywhere from a couple hundred to a couplethousand, but a No.3 should be reasonable. A new one costs around $60.00 Darryl Acouple of weeks ago I was given a couple bench planes. After trying them out I find that it is easier to rough plane with a small bench plane. I was given a Union No.2 ( I first thought it was a No.3 the writing wascrudded over and I thought the top sweep of the 2 was a 3), and a huge Stanley605. In the size system I am talking about a 2 (about 7 inches long, 1.75wide) is smaller than a 3 (about 8.5 inches long) and Stanley had what theycalled their Bedrock series where all the numbers started with 60x, so the605 would be a 5 size. I find the 2 to be the perfect size for rough planing for my hand size (small). But the 2 size is quite rare. Stanley stopped making them along time ago. Lie-Nielsen makes a 2 size, but it is $235.00. Stanley stillmakes a 3 size, so they can still be bought fairly cheaply. Rodmakers withlarger hands might do okay with a 3 size. If you happen to find a 2 or 3 size bench plane at a swap meet or oldtool store, buy it and give it a try. I think you will like it for rough planing. A Stanley No.2 will cost anywhere from a couple hundred to a couplethousand, but a No.3 should be reasonable. A new one costs around $60.00 Darryl from jmpio@nhbm.com Tue Jul 3 14:29:28 2001 f63JTRZ23647 Subject: RE: Bench Planes for rough planing This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I'm not surprised that you find a bench plane actually planes more easily,it is designed for with the grain planing, while the block planes werereally designed for end grain planing and for their small size and easyportability. The angle of attack is generally steeper with the bench planesreducing the tendency to dig in. The problem, as you have nicely described,is the size of the bench planes, most of them are too large for one-handedoperation. The numbering system does not refer directly to sizes, butrather to models. What you have is a Model 2, Model 3, etc. are an enormous variety out there. A number of small (very small)manufacturers are starting to reproduce or create new models of infillplanes. These are planes constructed with both steel and wood parts thatlack the easy adjustability of the modern block planes but are designed toachieve other goals, such as smoothing difficult figured woods. A coupleof gentleman in Arkansas are making beautiful wood bodied planes that arereported to be better than anything Stanley ever dreamed of making. Ifanyone has a bunch of extra cash and would like to play around with, I meanconduct scientific experiments with different planes, I could point you to anumber of makers that create exquisite tools. -----Original Message----- Subject: Bench Planes for rough planing A couple of weeks ago I was given a couple bench planes. After trying them out I find that it is easier to rough plane with a small bench plane. I was given a Union No.2 ( I first thought it was a No.3 the writing was crudded over and I thought the top sweep of the 2 was a 3), and a huge Stanley 605. In the size system I am talking about a 2 (about 7 inches long, 1.75 wide)is smaller than a 3 (about 8.5 inches long) and Stanley had what they called their Bedrock series where all the numbers started with 60x, so the 605would be a 5 size. I find the 2 to be the perfect size for rough planing for my hand size (small). But the 2 size is quite rare. Stanley stopped making them a long time ago. Lie-Nielsen makes a 2 size, but it is $235.00. Stanley still makes a 3 size, so they can still be bought fairly cheaply. Rodmakers with larger hands might do okay with a 3 size. If you happen to find a 2 or 3 size bench plane at a swap meet or old tool store, buy it and give it a try. I think you will like it for rough planing. A Stanley No.2 will cost anywhere from a couple hundred to a couplethousand, but a No.3 should be reasonable. A new one costs around $60.00 Darryl I'm not surprised that you find a bench plane actually planes more easily, it is designed for with the grain planing, while the block planes were reallydesigned angle of attack is generally steeper with the bench planes reducing thetendency The numbering system does not refer directly to sizes, but rather to What you have is a Model 2, Model 3, etc. people that would really like to experiment with different planes there are an manufacturers are planes constructed with both steel and wood parts that lack the easy adjustability of the modern block planes but are designed to achieve other gentleman in Arkansas are making beautiful wood bodied planes that arereported anyone has a bunch of extra cash and would like to play around with, I mean conduct scientific experiments with different planes, I could point you to a number of makers that create exquisite tools. -----Original Message-----From: DNHayashida@aol.com 1:19 Bench Planes planes. After trying them out I find that it is easier to rough plane with asmall bench plane. I was given a Union No.2 ( I first thought it was a No.3 the writing was crudded over and I thought the top sweep of the 2 was a3), and a huge Stanley 605. In the size system I am talking about a 2(about 7 inches long, 1.75 wide) is smaller than a 3 (about 8.5 inches long) and Stanley had what they called their Bedrock series where all thenumbers started with 60x, so the 605 would be a 5 size. I find the 2to be the perfect size for rough planing for my hand size (small). But the 2 size is quite rare. Stanley stopped making them a long time ago. Lie-Nielsen makes a 2 size, but it is $235.00. Stanley still makes a 3 size, so they can still be bought fairly cheaply. Rodmakers with larger hands might do okay with a 3 size. If you happen to find a 2or 3 size bench plane at a swap meet or old tool store, buy it and give it a try. I think you will like it for rough planing. A Stanley No.2 will cost anywhere from a couple hundred to a couple thousand, but a No.3should be reasonable. A new one costs around $60.00 Darryl from H2ODOC781@aol.com Tue Jul 3 15:06:13 2001 f63K6CZ24935 Subject: rod appraisal Good Afternoon! As is generally the case, what once wasn't important now is. Can you steer me towards some sites or perhaps yourselves that can help in appraisingsome rods and reels. I am desperately trying to convince a friend that has purchased an old farm house and out buildings that the fish paraphernalia he has discovered are junk and best left to someone else (me) to dispose of, so he can attend to more important matters. He seems convinced that the numbers 1896, and1903 are not just model numbers. Seriously though, I would like to help him determine what he has. I'll be out visiting him over the 4th. Thanks to all of you for the wisdom you share and the encouragement you give!!!It has helped me tremendously as I plug away on my first rod. Ben C. JarvisLogan UTh2odoc781@aol.com Good Afternoon! you steer me towards some sites or perhaps yourselves that can help inappraising some rods and reels. I am desperately trying to convince a friend that has purchased an oldfarm house and out buildings that the fish paraphernalia he has discoveredare junk and best left to someone else (me) to dispose of, so he can attendto 1896, and 1903 are not just model numbers. Seriously though, I would like to help him determine what he has. out visiting him over the 4th. Thanks to all of you for the wisdom you share and the encouragementyou give!!!It has helped me tremendously as I plug away on my first rod. Ben C. JarvisLogan UTh2odoc781@aol.com from ctn45555@centurytel.net Tue Jul 3 15:35:47 2001 f63KZkZ26005 f63KZgU15843 Organization: Smith & Boyd Subject: 2 or 3 coats? Thanks very much to all that have responded (on and off list) to myqueries regarding finish technique. This advice has prevented manywould be errors on my part and I am very happy with the rod. I'm goingto stick with 2 coats. By the way, how long should a poly finish dryprior to fishing (spar urethane)? I have been told several days to aweek depending on drying conditions. That makes sense to me, but others(e.g. George Maurer) call for up to 3 months dry time before use. Whatgives? Thanks again, Chad Boyd from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Jul 3 17:08:07 2001 f63M86Z28848 Subject: Sir D? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I made the 7' 4wt. out of Wayne C's book, is that the taperthat everyone calls the Sir D or is that a different taper?Tony Miller I made the 7' 4wt. out ofWayne = is that the taperthat everyone calls = is that a different taper?Tony =Miller from flytyr@southshore.com Tue Jul 3 17:21:31 2001 f63MLUZ29315 f63MLIK21603 Subject: Re: Sir D? Tony,The Sir D is Wayne's taper with .002 added atstation 5, 10, 15. The rest is the same, This is agreat little rod and I have made no less than tenof them.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony Miller wrote: I made the 7' 4wt. out of Wayne C's book, isthat the taperthat everyone calls the Sir D oris that a different taper?Tony Miller from 4hammock@bellsouth.net Tue Jul 3 18:20:00 2001 f63NJxZ00235 Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:20:44 -0400 Subject: removing from list? how do you remove yourself from this mailing list? ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Hexrod Conversion question Bill, Be especially watchful of how the taper changes at the tip (0 and 5 inch stations). Sometimes Hexrod will reducethese too much when going to a lower lineweight. Itsa problem in the math somewhere. Anyway compare what Hexrodsays with some other 4wts of similar length and make surethese dimensions are reasonable.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Bill Walters wrote: Hi, I ran a proven taper (Don Andersen's 7'9",5wt)through Hexrod and changed only the line weight, to a4wt, holding the stresses constant. Can I trust thenumbers with a straight-forward conversion like thisor will I need to tweak them in some way? I know thatI've read that Hexrod is good starting point but oftenthe numbers need to be tweaked. Just want to be surebefore I put all this work into it. Don't have quitethe amount of free time to experiment the way otherlist members do. Thanks. Bill Walters __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from seanmcs@iprimus.com.au Tue Jul 3 18:36:19 2001 f63NaIZ00621 Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:36:13 +1000 "'Adam Vigil'" Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips FILETIME=[F28E41E0:01C10418] Hi; I mention that I have had acceptable results more or less using thesuggestion in "The Book" page 216 first edition. However I do not botherwith Clorox; just using the household cleaner, rubbed in gently by hand,and rinsed in lukewarm water. Our local brand is Jif, but it is probablythe same as Ajax or Comet. I leave it on about a minute while the activecleansing agent dissolves the grease, then rinse. You could be fishingwith it right away. Best. Sean "Maurer, David" wrote: More heresy, I've had good luck with Goo Gone and a soft rag. It's citrus based so itprobably leaves a little lemon oil on the cork which may have the samebenefits that baby oil does. Dave Maurer ----------From: Adam Vigil Sent: Monday, July 2, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips Well maybe this is heresy, What I have used to clean cork is Simple Green. Spray it with dilutedsimply green rub in, wait a couple of minutes and rinse with H2O. Thecorkcomes out clean and no damage. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Tony Miller Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:00 PMSubject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips Well here are some things to consider.Not are cork grips are equal. (especially on Trade rods) from seanmcs@iprimus.com.au Tue Jul 3 18:48:56 2001 f63NmoZ00998 Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:48:45 +1000 Subject: Re: nodeless question FILETIME=[B2B65880:01C1041A] Hi: I have some hide glue granules bought in England some years ago.They are about the size of corn kernels. Is that granule or pearl? Also, with hide glue, how do you clean up after binding? Is it with warmwater. I mean in the string initially, but also to finish after thestring is off, and how long in the string for safety. The point is, Ihappily fish a couple of rods from the early 1920s, and their glue isfine as far as I am concerned, and why not try hide for a reproductionof such earlier rods. Thanks. Sean "J. C. Zimny" wrote: Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)Encoding: 7bit from jczimny@dol.net Tue Jul 3 19:05:16 2001 f6405FZ01425 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: nodeless question That's probably pearl.Make sure that you keep it warm while binding. You can wipe some off with adamp, warm cloth. Sand or scrape after the string is off. I think that 12 to24 hours at 70F is sufficient.Indeed. Why not.John Z Sean Mc Sharry wrote: Hi: I have some hide glue granules bought in England some years ago.They are about the size of corn kernels. Is that granule or pearl? Also, with hide glue, how do you clean up after binding? Is it with warmwater. I mean in the string initially, but also to finish after thestring is off, and how long in the string for safety. The point is, Ihappily fish a couple of rods from the early 1920s, and their glue isfine as far as I am concerned, and why not try hide for a reproductionof such earlier rods. Thanks. Sean "J. C. Zimny" wrote: Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)Encoding: 7bit from jczimny@dol.net Tue Jul 3 19:15:16 2001 f640FFZ01682 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Catskills Gathering List,The Catskills 2001 Gathering information has been posted. It isat this address: http://www.canerod.com/Gatherings/Index.html The Gathering will be on September 8&9. I hope to see you there. John Z from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 3 20:27:15 2001 f641REZ02735 ;Wed, 4 Jul 2001 01:27:06 +0000 "'Adam Vigil'" Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips Sean:I too have had good results with Comet however I wouldn't recommend usingiton old cork. Works well on a good cork grip. Jack from RMargiotta@aol.com Tue Jul 3 20:39:53 2001 f641dqZ03262 Subject: Re: Reconditioning Cork Grips I use a strong solution of Murphy's Oil Soap and warm water and rub with my hands to clean old dirty grips. Murphy's is safe for wood, leather, and vinyl, so I figure it's OK for cork, which is bark. (Works good on fly lines as well.) I occasionally will use Soft Scrub cleanser, but only sparingly and with my hands. Baby oil, which is fragranced mineral oil, should be a good treatment for actual reconditioning. Mineral oil is commonly used on wood cutting boards and knife handles to fight excessive drying. I haven't used it on cork, but it should work OK. It may darken the cork slightly, though, so use it sparingly. --Rich from MasjC1@aol.com Tue Jul 3 21:13:31 2001 f642DUZ03799 Subject: Re: Rod taper Jim, My first rod was the Sir D. I liked it a lot but, last summer I fished with the Driggs and found it to be more versatile. The para like taper allowed me to fish close in like the Sir D but also had more distance, at least for my style of casting. I'm currently attempting to convert to a three piece to facilitate backpacking. Mark Cole Jim, My first rod was the Sir D. I liked it a lot but, last summer I fished with the Driggs and found it to be more versatile. The para like taper allowedme to fish close in like the Sir D but also had more distance, at least formy style of casting. I'm currently attempting to convert to a three piece to facilitate backpacking. Mark Cole from stpete@netten.net Tue Jul 3 23:54:03 2001 f644s2Z05541 Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:53:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Rod taper Mark, Keep me posted on the success you find converting the Driggs to a 3 pc.The Driggs River Special has indeed become my favorite rod and it wouldbe convenient indeed in a 3 pc configuration. I have considered doingthe conversion but have been tied up with lots of travel and otherchores. Rick Crenshaw MasjC1@aol.com wrote: Jim, My first rod was the Sir D. I liked it a lot but, last summer I fishedwiththe Driggs and found it to be more versatile. The para like taperallowed meto fish close in like the Sir D but also had more distance, at least style of casting. I'm currently attempting to convert to a three piecetofacilitate backpacking. Mark Cole from Callum.Ross@macquarie.com.au Wed Jul 4 00:00:24 2001 f6450MZ05786 f644vU706064 Subject: RE: Rod taper I've seen the Driggs referred to as a 4 and a 5 weight. What do the peoplewho fish it think? Thanks, Callum Ross. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Rod taper Mark, Keep me posted on the success you find converting the Driggs to a 3 pc.The Driggs River Special has indeed become my favorite rod and it wouldbe convenient indeed in a 3 pc configuration. I have considered doingthe conversion but have been tied up with lots of travel and otherchores. Rick Crenshaw MasjC1@aol.com wrote: Jim, My first rod was the Sir D. I liked it a lot but, last summer I fishedwiththe Driggs and found it to be more versatile. The para like taperallowed meto fish close in like the Sir D but also had more distance, at least style of casting. I'm currently attempting to convert to a three piecetofacilitate backpacking. Mark Cole from dannyt@frisurf.no Wed Jul 4 00:42:15 2001 f645gEZ06417 Wed, 4 Jul 2001 07:42:12 +0200 Wed, 4 Jul 2001 07:42:11 +0200 Subject: Re: Rod taper Last winter I made a 3 piece, 3wt version of the Driggs. I converted thetaper in Hexrod, and used the numbers straight out of it. My fishing buddyclaims it is the best rod I ever made.... As for the "original" Driggs I use a DT4. regardsdanny from bh887@lafn.org Wed Jul 4 01:19:23 2001 f646JMZ06903 Subject: Re: Bench Planes for rough planing This is a multi-part message in MIME format. As sort of a parallel question to the bench plane, has anyone any =information on the Stanley 9 1/4? Yeah, I though it was a peculiar 9 =1/2 until I cleaned the side plate to find it is a 9 1/4. Nice little =plane, but I never heard of the 9 1/4. Still needs tuning, and I sure =got it reasonable, but I am curious. Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 12:32 PMSubject: RE: Bench Planes for rough planing I'm not surprised that you find a bench plane actually planes more =easily, it is designed for with the grain planing, while the block =planes were really designed for end grain planing and for their small =size and easy portability. The angle of attack is generally steeper =with the bench planes reducing the tendency to dig in. The problem, as =you have nicely described, is the size of the bench planes, most of them =are too large for one-handed operation. The numbering system does not =refer directly to sizes, but rather to models. What you have is a Model =2, Model 3, etc. there are an enormous variety out there. A number of small (very small) =manufacturers are starting to reproduce or create new models of infill =planes. These are planes constructed with both steel and wood parts =that lack the easy adjustability of the modern block planes but are =designed to achieve other goals, such as smoothing difficult figured =woods. A couple of gentleman in Arkansas are making beautiful wood =bodied planes that are reported to be better than anything Stanley ever =dreamed of making. If anyone has a bunch of extra cash and would like =to play around with, I mean conduct scientific experiments with =different planes, I could point you to a number of makers that create =exquisite tools.-----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 1:19 PM Subject: Bench Planes for rough planing A couple of weeks ago I was given a couple bench planes. After = out I find that it is easier to rough plane with a small bench = given a Union No.2 ( I first thought it was a No.3 the writing was = over and I thought the top sweep of the 2 was a 3), and a huge = In the size system I am talking about a 2 (about 7 inches long, 1.75 = smaller than a 3 (about 8.5 inches long) and Stanley had what they = their Bedrock series where all the numbers started with 60x, so the = I find the 2 to be the perfect size for rough planing for my hand = (small). But the 2 size is quite rare. Stanley stopped making them a = time ago. Lie-Nielsen makes a 2 size, but it is $235.00. Stanley = a 3 size, so they can still be bought fairly cheaply. Rodmakers with = If you happen to find a 2 or 3 size bench plane at a swap meet or = store, buy it and give it a try. I think you will like it for rough = A Stanley No.2 will cost anywhere from a couple hundred to a couple = As sort of a parallel question to the bench plane, = got it reasonable, but I am curious. ----- Original Message ----- jmpio@nhbm.com Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 = PMSubject: RE: Bench Planes for = planing not surprised that you find a bench plane actually planes more easily, = designed for with the grain planing, while the block planes were = described, is the size of the bench planes, most of them are too large = etc. people that would really like to experiment with different planes = are planes constructed with both steel and wood parts that lack the = adjustability of the modern block planes but are designed to achieve = gentleman in Arkansas are making beautiful wood bodied planes that are = around with, I mean conduct scientific experiments with different = tools. -----Original Message-----From: = = Bench = planes. After trying them out I find that it is easier to rough = with a small bench plane. I was given a Union No.2 ( I first = was a No.3 the writing was crudded over and I thought the top = the 2 was a 3), and a huge Stanley 605. In the size system I am = about a 2 (about 7 inches long, 1.75 wide) is smaller than a 3 = 8.5 inches long) and Stanley had what they called their Bedrock = where all the numbers started with 60x, so the 605 would be a 5 = I find the 2 to be the perfect size for rough planing for my = size (small). But the 2 size is quite rare. Stanley stopped = a long time ago. Lie-Nielsen makes a 2 size, but it is $235.00. = still makes a 3 size, so they can still be bought fairly = Rodmakers with larger hands might do okay with a 3 size. = store, buy it and give it a try. I think you will like it for = planing. A Stanley No.2 will cost anywhere from a couple hundred = couple thousand, but a No.3 should be reasonable. A new one = $60.00 Darryl = from danny.twang@pd.no Wed Jul 4 01:21:09 2001 f646L8Z07071 Subject: Re: Bench Planes for rough planing This is a multi-part message in MIME format. My mentor use a bench plane for all his planing, from rough to =final.......... My mentor use a bench plane for all his= from rough to final.......... from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Jul 4 02:51:38 2001 f647paZ08085 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Something you need to remember with resorcinol and UF glues is they haveshelf lives starting from the day the stuff is packaged, once the packageis opened the shelf life reduces faster still. I've had problems with resorcinol not curing properly in cold weather evenif left for a very long time though people have told me they've done thesame without problems.In either case it's worth testing a new batch by gluing and breaking somewood to ensure the glueline doesn't fail and doing this from time to timeto make sure all's well.Sooner or later the glueline will fail then deep six the remains. Tony At 12:08 PM 6/21/01 -0600, Ralph W Moon wrote:Tony Adhesives are fickle. I have had to catastrophicdelaminations with URAC, and refuse to even look at it anymore, but I see a number of first rate rod makers using it,including I think, Bob Nunley. I have seen a delaminationof resorcinol, although I personally have not had anyproblems, (One of my favorites) I have seen a adelamination with SIG Epoxy and one with Rod builders epoxy,but never any with Epon heat setting epoxy. I have not seenany failures with Titebond II. I have had ferrule failureswith every epoxy I have used, and I can assure you I payattention to the fitting and preparation of my ferrules. Ihave never had a failure with Urethane Bond. It is my ownunsubstantiated opinion that epoxies are not suitable asferrule cement since they dry to had and temperature changedifferentials between metal and wood will break the bond,despite roughing or not roughingRalph P. S. I might add that devcon has given me more troublethan any other. To each his own I guess if you are using itsuccessfully. /**************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The only dif between kids and grown ups is sooner or later everyonelearns to not pick yer nose and scratch ya bum in public Paul Hogan back when he was really funny/**************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Jul 4 07:17:26 2001 f64CHPZ10379 Wed, 4 Jul 2001 05:17:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Bench Planes for rough planing --------------F160D7F1375967FC512E2CB7 Hi Lee,I got a 9 1/4 off of eBay a few weeks ago. This onedoesn't have an adjustable throat. Otherwise, it's almost I think it will be fine for rough planing, but withoutthe throat adjustment I won't use it for anything precise. Harry Lee Freeman wrote: As sort of a parallel question to the bench plane, hasanyone any information on the Stanley 9 1/4? Yeah, Ithough it was a peculiar 9 1/2 until I cleaned the sideplate to find it is a 9 1/4. Nice little plane, but Inever heard of the 9 1/4. Still needs tuning, and I suregot it reasonable, but I am curious. Lee ----- Original Message -----From: jmpio@nhbm.com rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 12:32 PMSubject: RE: Bench Planes for rough planingI'm not surprised that you find a bench planeactually planes more easily, it is designed forwith the grain planing, while the block planeswere really designed for end grain planing and angle of attack is generally steeper with thebench planes reducing the tendency to dig in.The problem, as you have nicely described, isthe size of the bench planes, most of them aretoo large for one-handed operation. Thenumbering system does not refer directly tosizes, but rather to models. What you have is aModel 2, Model 3, etc.For people that wouldreally like to experiment with different planesthere are an enormous variety out there. Anumber of small (very small) manufacturers arestarting to reproduce or create new models ofinfill planes. These are planes constructedwith both steel and wood parts that lack theeasy adjustability of the modern block planesbut are designed to achieve other goals, suchas smoothing difficult figured woods. A coupleof gentleman in Arkansas are making beautifulwood bodied planes that are reported to bebetter than anything Stanley ever dreamed ofmaking. If anyone has a bunch of extra cash andwould like to play around with, I mean conductscientific experiments with different planes, Icould point you to a number of makers thatcreate exquisite tools. -----Original Message-----From: DNHayashida@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 1:19 PM Subject: Bench Planes for roughplaning A couple of weeks ago I was given acouple bench planes. After trying them out I find that it is easier to roughplane with a small bench plane. I wasgiven a Union No.2 ( I first thoughtit was a No.3 the writing was cruddedover and I thought the top sweep ofthe 2 was a 3), and a huge Stanley605.In the size system I am talking abouta 2 (about 7 inches long, 1.75 wide)issmaller than a 3 (about 8.5 incheslong) and Stanley had what they called their Bedrock series where all thenumbers started with 60x, so the 605wouldbe a 5 size. I find the 2 to be the perfect size (small). But the 2 size is quite rare.Stanley stopped making them a longtime ago. Lie-Nielsen makes a 2 size,but it is $235.00. Stanley still makes a 3 size, so they can still be boughtfairly cheaply. Rodmakers with largerhands might do okay with a 3 size. If you happen to find a 2 or 3 sizebench plane at a swap meet or old tool store, buy it and give it a try. Ithink you will like it for roughplaning.A Stanley No.2 will cost anywhere froma couple hundred to a couple thousand, but a No.3 should be reasonable. A newone costs around $60.00 Darryl --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------F160D7F1375967FC512E2CB7 Hi Lee, the throat adjustment I won't use it for anything precise. Lee Freeman wrote: As sort of a parallelquestion to the bench plane, has anyone any information on the Stanley ----- Original Message ----- From:jmpio@nhbm.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 12:32PM Subject: RE: Bench Planes for roughplaning not surprised that you find a bench plane actually planes more easily,it is designed for with the grain planing, while the block planes werereally designed for end grain planing and for their small size and easy nicely described, is the size of the bench planes, most of them are too 2, Model 3, etc.Forpeople that would really like to experiment with different planes there manufacturers are starting to reproduce or create new models of infill that lack the easy adjustability of the modern block planes but are designed A couple of gentleman in Arkansas are making beautiful wood bodied planesthat are reported to be better than anything Stanley ever dreamed of If anyone has a bunch of extra cash and would like to play around with,I mean conduct scientific experiments with different planes, I could pointyou to a number of makers that create exquisitetools. -----OriginalMessage-----From:DNHayashida@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 03,20011:19 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Bench Planes forrough planing A coupleof weeks ago I was given a couple bench planes. After tryingthemoutI find that it is easier to rough plane with a small bench plane. Iwasgivena Union No.2 ( I first thought it was a No.3 the writing wascruddedoverand I thought the top sweep of the 2 was a 3), and a huge Stanley605.Inthe size system I am talking about a 2 (about 7 inches long, 1.75 wide)issmallerthan a 3 (about 8.5 inches long) and Stanley had what theycalledtheirBedrock series where all the numbers started with 60x, so the 605wouldbea 5 size.I findthe 2 to be the perfect size for rough planing for my handsize(small).But the 2 size is quite rare. Stanley stopped making them alongtimeago. Lie-Nielsen makes a 2 size, but it is $235.00. Stanley stillmakesa3 size, so they can still be bought fairly cheaply. Rodmakers withlargerhandsmight do okay with a 3 size.Ifyou happen to find a 2 or 3 size bench plane at a swap meet or oldtoolstore,buy it and give it a try. I think you will like it for roughplaning.AStanley No.2 will cost anywhere from a couple hundred to a couplethousand,buta No.3 should be reasonable. A new one costs around$60.00Darryl --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------F160D7F1375967FC512E2CB7-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Jul 4 07:46:46 2001 f64CkjZ10758 Subject: Re: Bench Planes for rough planing I have a 9 1/4 that I use for ruff planing only and it works great for the initial work. As a lark I tried to plane to finish on one strip and the results were not the best for accuracy. It is older and has a great blade in it not like the newer planes maybe this makes a difference.Bret I have a 9 1/4 that I use for ruff planing only and it works great forthe the great blade in it not like the newer planes maybe this makes a difference.Bret from bob@downandacross.com Wed Jul 4 08:39:58 2001 f64DdvZ12004 Subject: RE: Rod taper I can only answer this based on the Driggs rod I fish with consistency. I have made other Driggs but have only cast them a few times. The way mine came out (and still my main fishing rod two years later), it uses a DT4 just fine. It is great with silk, and a $19 Air Cell line works great.All cane rods seem to cast a variety of line weights well, depending on length of cast and other features.Best regards,Bob At 02:59 PM 7/4/2001 +1000, you wrote:I've seen the Driggs referred to as a 4 and a 5 weight. What do the people who fish it think? Thanks, Callum Ross. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, 4 July 2001 2:48 PM Cc: GRNMTRODS@aol.com; RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Rod taper Mark, Keep me posted on the success you find converting the Driggs to a 3 pc.The Driggs River Special has indeed become my favorite rod and it wouldbe convenient indeed in a 3 pc configuration. I have considered doingthe conversion but have been tied up with lots of travel and otherchores. Rick Crenshaw MasjC1@aol.com wrote: Jim, My first rod was the Sir D. I liked it a lot but, last summer I fishedwiththe Driggs and found it to be more versatile. The para like taperallowed meto fish close in like the Sir D but also had more distance, at least style of casting. I'm currently attempting to convert to a three piecetofacilitate backpacking. Mark Cole from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Jul 4 11:04:33 2001 f64G4WZ13734 Subject: Re: Experiment This is a multi-part message in MIME format. AdamI'd first like to say Very well done indeed!It is very refreshing ,to me, to see someone takean approach to an issue as you have done.Instead of the usual " Well that's the way I've done it for years and =I'm not gonna change now approach" No offense intended toward any one =person here.You have succeeded in proving what I have long suspected,but could not prove. That there is definitely an "over doing it" to heat =treating. And while scientifically there might be other factors, =statistically (using real world methods) you have proven a point. I love =it when someone goes the extra mile! I've taken Statistics and =Communications and Statistically it makes sense to me.On the communications side , you made a statement and supported it with =fact. Not opinion. While opinions can also be a good thing. I think that =we have to step back once and awhile and review facts. Kudos' on your =effort and for bringing a tired subject new life. Debate on.Tony Miller AdamI'd first like to say Very well= indeed!It is very refreshing ,to me,= someone takean approach to an issue asyou = done.Instead of the usual " Well = I've done it for years and I'm not gonna change now approach" No offense = intended toward any one person here.You have succeeded inproving = long suspected,but could not prove. Thatthere = there might be other factors, statistically (using real world methods) = me.On the communications side ,= statement and supported it with fact. Not opinion. While opinions can = good thing. I think that we have to step back once and awhile and review = on.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from rmoon@ida.net Wed Jul 4 11:15:13 2001 f64GFCZ14044 Subject: Re: Experiment --------------B410FA03BF2084FAA84B389D Did i miss something? What experiment? Tony Miller wrote: AdamI'd first like to say Very well done indeed!It is very refreshing,to me, to see someone takean approach to an issue as you havedone.Instead of the usual " Well that's the way I've done it for yearsand I'm not gonna change now approach" No offense intended toward anyone person here.You have succeeded in proving what I have longsuspected,but could not prove. That there is definitely an "over doingit" to heat treating. And while scientifically there might be otherfactors, statistically (using real world methods) you have proven apoint. I love it when someone goes the extra mile! I've takenStatistics and Communications and Statistically it makes sense tome.On the communications side , you made a statement and supported itwith fact. Not opinion. While opinions can also be a good thing. Ithink that we have to step back once and awhile and review facts.Kudos' on your effort and for bringing a tired subject new life.Debate on.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html --------------B410FA03BF2084FAA84B389D Tony Miller wrote:-->AdamI'dfirst like to say Very well done indeed!Itis very refreshing ,to me, to see someone takeanapproach to an issue as you have done.Insteadof the usual " Well that's the way I've done it for years and I'm not gonnachange now approach" No offense intended toward any one personhere.Youhave succeeded in proving what I have long suspected,butcould not prove. That there is definitely an "over doing it" to heat treating.And while scientifically there might be other factors, statistically (usingreal world methods) you have proven a point. I love it when someone goesthe extra mile! I've taken Statistics and Communications and Statisticallyit makes sense to me.Onthe communications side , you made a statement and supported it with fact.Not opinion. While opinions can also be a good thing. I think that we haveto step back once and awhile and review facts. Kudos' on your effort and Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html --------------B410FA03BF2084FAA84B389D-- from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Jul 4 11:16:38 2001 f64GGcZ14278 Subject: Re: Experiment This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I'd also like to add that you have shown that thereis also a matter of under doing it too.Tony Miller I'd also like to add that you = that thereis also a matter of underdoing = too.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from dpeaston@wzrd.com Wed Jul 4 11:52:21 2001 f64GqKZ14941 Subject: Re: Experiment Adam, Could you re-post I didn't get it either. Thanks, -Doug Garamond MTAdamI'dfirst liketo say Very well done indeed!It is very refreshing ,to me, to see someonetakean approach to an issue as you have done.Instead of the usual " Wellthat's the way I've done it for years and I'm not gonna change nowapproach" No offense intended toward any one person here.You havesucceeded in proving what I have long suspected,but could not prove. Thatthere is definitely an "over doing it" to heat treating. And whilescientifically there might be other factors, statistically (using realworld methods) you have proven a point. I love it when someone goes theextra mile! I've taken Statistics and Communications and Statistically itmakes sense to me.On the communications side , you made a statement andsupported it with fact. Not opinion. While opinions can also be a goodthing. I think that we have to step back once and awhile and reviewfacts. Kudos' on your effort and for bringing a tired subject new life.Debate on.TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bamb=ooshop/home.html from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Jul 4 13:40:38 2001 f64IebZ16439 Wed, 4 Jul 2001 15:39:37 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Rod taper Actually what makes the Driggs such a good rod is the fact that it is soversatile.It will cast numerous line types and sizes (I have heard of people using up to6 wt)in all kinds of different casting situations. Hey, and its a PHYoung to boot! Shawn Downandacross Rods wrote: I can only answer this based on the Driggs rod I fish with consistency. Ihave made other Driggs but have only cast them a few times. The wayminecame out (and still my main fishing rod two years later), it uses a DT4just fine. It is great with silk, and a $19 Air Cell line works great.All cane rods seem to cast a variety of line weights well, depending onlength of cast and other features.Best regards,Bob At 02:59 PM 7/4/2001 +1000, you wrote:I've seen the Driggs referred to as a 4 and a 5 weight. What do the peoplewho fish it think? Thanks, Callum Ross. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, 4 July 2001 2:48 PM Cc: GRNMTRODS@aol.com; RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Rod taper Mark, Keep me posted on the success you find converting the Driggs to a 3 pc.The Driggs River Special has indeed become my favorite rod and it wouldbe convenient indeed in a 3 pc configuration. I have considered doingthe conversion but have been tied up with lots of travel and otherchores. Rick Crenshaw MasjC1@aol.com wrote: Jim, My first rod was the Sir D. I liked it a lot but, last summer I fishedwiththe Driggs and found it to be more versatile. The para like taperallowed meto fish close in like the Sir D but also had more distance, at least style of casting. I'm currently attempting to convert to a three piecetofacilitate backpacking. Mark Cole from MasjC1@aol.com Wed Jul 4 15:29:12 2001 f64KTBZ17902 Subject: Re: Rod taper Callum, I use a DT 4 wt and like it just fine. Mark Cole Callum, I use a DT 4 wt and like it just fine. Mark Cole from teekay35@interlynx.net Wed Jul 4 16:19:06 2001 f64LJ6Z18476 "Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: nodeless question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Vince Marinaro told me that he used rabbit hide glue on his rods. Vince Marinaro told me that he used = glue on his rods. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Jul 4 18:31:49 2001 f64NVlZ20090 Subject: Re: use of devcon 5 min Epoxy Mime-Version: 1.0 Not too sure of which Tony is in question here but.....I've never used URAC but I do use Borden liquid UF which is liquid for boththe resin and hardener and I like it a lot, I'd have thought they were moreor less the same thing though. I've used it for laminating frames for myboat as well as some rods though I'm sort of torn between this and Epon.I'm a bit sensitised to epoxy and hate the mess which is the only reason Idon't use it exclusively for everything. more faith in it than any other glue BUT everything does need to be right.Nothing like seeing a spar with those beautful purple lines to give a warmfeeling of well being when it comes to timber masts and spars. old glue or too low a temp for propper curing. Tony At 03:46 PM 6/21/01 -0400, Douglas Losey wrote:Ralph,As I am ready to glue up my first blank you're response to Tony re: URACdelaminations has not exactly inspired a great deal of confidence. The threebooks which amount to my apprenticeship in rodmaking do not mention SIG,Epon, or Titebond II, could you give me more info on these adhesives...? thanks,losey /**************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The only dif between kids and grown ups is sooner or later everyonelearns to not pick yer nose and scratch ya bum in public Paul Hogan back when he was really funny/**************************************************************************/ from bob@downandacross.com Wed Jul 4 19:08:41 2001 f6508eZ20620 Subject: Re: Catskills Gathering Dear John and list:Where are the recommended places to stay? Roscoe Motel?Thanks,Bob HWeAt 08:29 PM 7/3/2001 -0400, J. C. Zimny wrote:List,The Catskills 2001 Gathering information has been posted. It isat this address: http://www.canerod.com/Gatherings/Index.html The Gathering will be on September 8&9. I hope to see you there. John Z from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Jul 4 19:32:08 2001 f650W6Z21029 Subject: Re: Sir D? There is quite a lot of confusion in the naming of this rod. The Sir D isthe original as per the first WC book. It's a long story but the modifiedtaper is the actually the Sir D with the DH modification. Either one is a great taper. Tony At 05:23 PM 7/3/01 -0500, Tony Spezio wrote:Tony,The Sir D is Wayne's taper with .002 added atstation 5, 10, 15. The rest is the same, This is agreat little rod and I have made no less than tenof them.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony Miller wrote: I made the 7' 4wt. out of Wayne C's book, isthat the taperthat everyone calls the Sir D oris that a different taper?Tony Miller /**************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The only dif between kids and grown ups is sooner or later everyonelearns to not pick yer nose and scratch ya bum in public Paul Hogan back when he was really funny/**************************************************************************/ from harms1@pa.net Wed Jul 4 20:00:56 2001 f6510tZ21426 Subject: Re: Catskills Gathering Tried to get a reservation at the Roscoe Motel just today. Too late. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Catskills Gathering Dear John and list:Where are the recommended places to stay? Roscoe Motel?Thanks,Bob HWeAt 08:29 PM 7/3/2001 -0400, J. C. Zimny wrote:List,The Catskills 2001 Gathering information has been posted. It isat this address: http://www.canerod.com/Gatherings/Index.html The Gathering will be on September 8&9. I hope to see you there. John Z from harms1@pa.net Wed Jul 4 20:06:00 2001 f65160Z21672 "Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: nodeless question Apparently he did up until the seventies. At that time we both switched togood ol' Elmer's Carpenters' Glue. Titebond II wasn't around yet. Butthose old "Elmer's" rods are still going strong. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: nodeless question Vince Marinaro told me that he used rabbit hide glue on his rods. from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Wed Jul 4 20:54:28 2001 f651sRZ22212 Subject: Appalachia..... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi All,I am wondering if there are any rodmakers gatherings in the Appalachia =region....? Thanks,losey Hi All,I am wondering if there are any = gatherings in the Appalachia region....? Thanks,losey from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Wed Jul 4 21:39:46 2001 f652djZ22975 "rodmakers" Subject: Re: Appalachia..... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Where are you in Appalachia? Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 9:53 PMSubject: Appalachia..... Hi All,I am wondering if there are any rodmakers gatherings in the Appalachia =region....? Thanks,losey Where are you in Appalachia? other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message ----- Douglas Losey Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001= PMSubject: Appalachia..... Hi All,I am wondering if there are any = gatherings in the Appalachia region....? Thanks,losey from jczimny@dol.net Wed Jul 4 22:00:14 2001 f6530DZ23306 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: Catskills Gathering Yes. The Roscoe Motel is the preferred placed. The last that I heardwas that it was completely booked. Most of the fun is centered there.All are invited. There are other motels in town.John Downandacross Rods wrote: Dear John and list:Where are the recommended places to stay? Roscoe Motel?Thanks,Bob HWeAt 08:29 PM 7/3/2001 -0400, J. C. Zimny wrote:List,The Catskills 2001 Gathering information has been posted. It isat this address: http://www.canerod.com/Gatherings/Index.html The Gathering will be on September 8&9. I hope to see you there. John Z from bob@downandacross.com Wed Jul 4 22:54:59 2001 f653swZ24706 Jul 2001 23:53:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Catskills Gathering The baxter had doubles left, $75 a night. 607-498-5811. I got one for Friday and Saturday only. If someone wants to split it. First come first served. This includes breakfast (redundant from gathering but still okay) and drinks (beers, etc...) I was told. Bob from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Thu Jul 5 07:30:30 2001 f65CUTZ29383 Subject: What do you Know? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi List, I place and order with Bob Venneri for N/S tubing and was told that it wouldship Wednesday, June 20. My check in payment was cashed on 6/15 and tothisdate the tubing has not shown up. I have sent him e-mail to inquire but todate I have not heard from him. Have any of you dealt with him before andwhat was your experience? Sorry to use this forum for this. Take care, Tim. Upstream Always Tim DoughtyRodmaker Normal0DocumentEmail Hi List, I place and order with Bob Venneri for N/S tubing and was told =that itwould ship Wednesday, June20. My check in payment was cashed on 6/15 and to this date the tubing =has notshown up. I have sent him e-mail to inquire but to date I have not heard =fromhim. Have any of you dealt with him before and what was your experience? =Sorryto use this forum for this. Take care, Tim. =A0AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail =Signature" Upstream =Always Tim Doughty Rodmaker from rkrees@mcn.net Thu Jul 5 08:02:22 2001 f65D2LZ29902 "Rodmakers Info" Subject: Re: What do you Know? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I also placed a order for the same tubing plus extra directly from his =site and my check has cleared as well. For the past few days I have been =trying to e-mail him with no reply. I have never done business with Bob =before but would have to believe that there is a problem there =stoneware. In general I hold all on this list with high regard and have =been in several group purchases before all with outstanding results. If =someone has any information on this I would like to hear from them also. Ron I also placed a order for the same tubing plus extra directly from = and my check has cleared as well. For the past few days I have been = e-mail him with no reply. I have never done business with Bob before but = have to believe that there is a problem there stoneware. In general I = on this list with high regard and have been in several group purchases = all with outstanding results. If someone has any information on this I = like to hear from them also.Ron from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jul 5 08:03:30 2001 f65D3TZ29998 Thu, 5 Jul 2001 06:02:22 -0700 Subject: Re: What do you Know? --------------528CA51B0816D137AA918754 Tim,Bob responds well to phone calls. The # is on hiswebsite. You should have no problems at all once you talkto Bob on the phone, although his small staff and highdemand can sometimes cause things to move a little slowly. Harry Tim Doughty wrote: I place and order with Bob Venneri for N/S tubing --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------528CA51B0816D137AA918754 Tim, to Bob on the phone, although his small staff and high demand cansometimescause things to move a little slowly. Tim Doughty wrote: Iplace and order with Bob Venneri for N/Stubing --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------528CA51B0816D137AA918754-- from rvenneri@ulster.net Thu Jul 5 08:20:36 2001 f65DKZZ01040 Organization: Venneri's Custom Components Subject: Re: What do you Know? Tim Doughty wrote: Hi List, I place and order with Bob Venneri for N/S tubing and was told that itwould ship Wednesday, June 20. My check in payment was cashed on 6/15and to this date the tubing has not shown up. I have sent him e-mailto inquire but to date I have not heard from him. Have any of youdealt with him before and what was your experience? Sorry to use thisforum for this. Take care, Tim. Upstream Always Tim Doughty Rodmaker To all who ordered tubing, I had a crash on my computer and had to take it in to the shop. I amnow checking me email at another computer. I also in the middle of thishave been on Vacation. I am sorry for the delays in shipping the tubingbut this was more work than I expected. I will as soon as I get mycomputer back on fri start sending again. I am sorry if I caused anyinconvience to any one. I intended on sending out the tubing before Ileft on Vacation but due to the crash it did not happen. Sometimesthings don,t go as planed. Best RegardsBob V from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Thu Jul 5 09:05:18 2001 f65E5HZ02357 Subject: What do you know? Heard from Bob V. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I just got an e-mail from Bob and he apparently had and computer cash andvacation that put him behind on shipping the n/s orders. My intent was tosee what Bob's history was so I could known which way to proceed, in no waydid I want or intent to question his reputation or honesty in this matter.Had Bob keep me informed as to his troubles this would of not happen. I would like to thank the list members who responded to my inquiry, takecare, Tim. Upstream Always Tim DoughtyRodmaker Normal0DocumentEmail I just got an e-mail from Bob and he apparently had and computer =cashand vacation that put him behind on shipping the n/s orders. My intent =was tosee what Bob=92s history was so I could known which way to proceed, in =no way didI want or intent to question his reputation or honesty in this matter. =Had Bobkeep me informed as to his troubles this would of not =happen. I would like to thank the list members who responded to my =inquiry, takecare, Tim. =A0AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail =Signature" Upstream =Always Tim Doughty Rodmaker from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Thu Jul 5 09:29:45 2001 f65ETiZ03193 Subject: Meeting rodmakers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi all, As a newbie I am always interested in meeting other rodmakers, =especially experienced rodmakers, and the last couple of days I have =watched the list re: gatherings.... I would like to share an interesting =story...I'll preface the story with some logistics....my permanent home is in =Colorado, although my job requires I live out of state for extensive =periods...currently I am based in Huntington West Virginia.......on a weekend trip home to Colorado last month I stopped in to visit =rodmaker Mike Clark....Mike was busy with two customers, one of which =was just standing listening to Mike and the other fellow talking =rodmaking. While waiting I struck up a conversation with the quiet one =and during our conversation I find that these two were rodmakers from =Huntington out in Colorado on vacation and happened to stop in at =Mike's. Very interesting, traveling 2000 miles to find a =rodmaker/neighbor. losey Hi all, As a newbie I am always interested in = rodmakers, especially experienced rodmakers, and the last couple of days = watched the list re: gatherings.... I would like to share an interesting = story... logistics....my permanent home is in Colorado, although my job requires = out of state for extensive periods...currently I am based in Huntington = Virginia.......on a weekend trip home to Colorado = stopped in to visit rodmaker Mike Clark....Mike was busy with two = of which was just standing listening to Mike and the other fellow = rodmaking. While waiting I struck up a conversation with the quiet one = during our conversation I find that these two were rodmakers from = in Colorado on vacation and happened to stop in at Mike's. Very = traveling 2000 miles to find a rodmaker/neighbor. losey from caneman@clnk.com Thu Jul 5 09:38:30 2001 f65EcTZ03582 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: What do you Know? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Tim,I've had several dealings with Bob and he is a top notch =businessman. NEVER had any problem with ordering from him whether it be =reel seats or router bits to make my own reel seats or just free advice = from him. Regards,BobR.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 7:32 AMSubject: What do you Know? Hi List, I place and order with Bob Venneri for N/S tubing and was told that it =would ship Wednesday, June 20. My check in payment was cashed on 6/15 =and to this date the tubing has not shown up. I have sent him e-mail to =inquire but to date I have not heard from him. Have any of you dealt =with him before and what was your experience? Sorry to use this forum = Upstream Always Tim Doughty Rodmaker Normal0DocumentEmail @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in =1.25in; mso- header-margin: .5in; mso-footer-margin: .5in; =mso-paper-source: 0; }P.MsoNormal {FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso- fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}LI.MsoNormal {FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}DIV.MsoNormal {FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}P.MsoAutoSig {FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso- pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}LI.MsoAutoSig {FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font- family: "Times New Roman"}DIV.MsoAutoSig {FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}SPAN.EmailStyle15 {COLOR: black; mso-style-type: personal-compose; mso-ansi-font-size: =10.0pt; mso- ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; =mso-bidi-font-family: Arial}DIV.Section1 {page: Section1} Tim, whether it be reel seats or router bits to make my own reel seats or = advice from him. Regards,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Tim Doughty Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 = AMSubject: What do you =Know? List, place and order with Bob Venneri for N/S tubing and was told that it = June 20. My check in payment was cashed on 6/15 and to this date the = has not shown up. I have sent him e-mail to inquire but to date I have = heard from him. Have any of you dealt with him before and what was = Tim. =A0AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail =Signature" Upstream =Always TimDoughtyRodmaker from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Jul 5 09:42:34 2001 f65EgXZ03895 Subject: Re: Meeting Rodmakers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. with other rodmakers. In his travels he sudden realizes that home is not =as far away as he has suspected.Enter Doug, what Doug doesn't realize is that Just joking Doug, you know me ha ha haTony Miller Enter a man, who is = converse with other rodmakers. In his= sudden realizes that home is not as far away as he has =suspected.Enter Doug, what Dougdoesn't = that = Just joking Doug, you knowme = haTony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from caneman@clnk.com Thu Jul 5 09:43:37 2001 f65EhbZ03973 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) "rodmakers" Subject: Re: Meeting rodmakers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Just goes to show you... you meet the best people loafing around cane =shops! *S* Bob Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 9:28 AMSubject: Meeting rodmakers Hi all, As a newbie I am always interested in meeting other rodmakers, =especially experienced rodmakers, and the last couple of days I have =watched the list re: gatherings.... I would like to share an interesting =story...I'll preface the story with some logistics....my permanent home is in =Colorado, although my job requires I live out of state for extensive =periods...currently I am based in Huntington West Virginia.......on a weekend trip home to Colorado last month I stopped in to visit =rodmaker Mike Clark....Mike was busy with two customers, one of which =was just standing listening to Mike and the other fellow talking =rodmaking. While waiting I struck up a conversation with the quiet one =and during our conversation I find that these two were rodmakers from =Huntington out in Colorado on vacation and happened to stop in at =Mike's. Very interesting, traveling 2000 miles to find a =rodmaker/neighbor. losey Just goes to show you... you meet the best people = around cane shops! *S* Bob ----- Original Message ----- Douglas Losey Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 = AMSubject: Meeting =rodmakers Hi all, As a newbie I am always interested in= other rodmakers, especially experienced rodmakers, and the last couple = interesting story... logistics....my permanent home is in Colorado, although my job = out of state for extensive periods...currently I am based in = Virginia.......on a weekend trip home to Colorado= I stopped in to visit rodmaker Mike Clark....Mike was busy with two = one of which was just standing listening to Mike and the other fellow = rodmaking. While waiting I struck up a conversation with the quiet one = during our conversation I find that these two were rodmakers from = interesting, traveling 2000 miles to find a =rodmaker/neighbor. losey from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Jul 5 09:57:25 2001 f65EvPZ04767 JAA21557 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:57:24 - Subject: Re: Experiment Like others I didn't get the first piece of this thread.Or maybe it wasn't intended for the list. But either wayI'd be interested in any experimental results on heat treating. I just ruined a culm with the "pipe of fire", cooking it for a little too long in spots.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Jul 5 10:16:31 2001 f65FGUZ06191 IAA13156 IAA07117 (5.5.2650.21) jcbyrd@direct-pest.com, petermckean@netspace.net.au,"'WILLIAM HARMS'" Subject: RE: nodeless questionDate: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:16:17 -0700 yah it's still available. I use one of those contact lens boilers that I get atvalue village for about a buck, I put a reostat (splng?) on the chord and abably botle inside on a piece of coiled up coat hanger to suspend it in thewater and then take it up to 150 degrees and mark the spot. ---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 1:38 PM petermckean@netspace.net.auCc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: nodeless question Apparently, hide glue will also break down under boiling water. So forthose of you who want to use it on your rods, you'll probably want to try toavoid placing your rods in boiling water. Patrick, can't one still buy the good, old stuff in powder (or pulverized)form some of the specialty woodworker catalogues like Constantine? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Cc: "Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 1:50 PMSubject: RE: nodeless question very very very strong joint and has to be soaked in water for alooooooooong time before it fails. Stradavarie violins have stood up forhundreds of years in all sorts of humidities and are still together. It canbe made water resistant and takes about 300 lbs. per square inch to pullapart. The liquid is lousy but the old stuff is great. Used it every day for8 years when I was a luthier. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 4:56 AM Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: nodeless question OOOOPS! Wrong answer, wrong question. That was meant as an answer to TerryKirkpatrick. The reply that goes with YOUR note is this one - why does anyone usehide glue these days? Not that I think they shouldn't; it's just that Iwould have thought that they were a bit passe. Peter ----- Original Message -----From: Bamboo Joe Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:44 AMSubject: Re: nodeless question When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day 2000, he was usingTitebond II for demo rods, and Hide Glue for his for sale rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf joints. I did howeverbuy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips up. Did noticethat the liquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than the TitebondII. Someone was telling me that the liquid hide glue is not as good as theground hide glue. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message -----From: setissma Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:17 PMSubject: nodeless question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodelessconstruction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write downwhether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would itmatter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences with theseproducts for nodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Jul 5 10:23:01 2001 f65FN0Z06566 IAA22316 IAA19581 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: nodeless question all of the old antique furniture is/was glued with hide glue. The glue isextremely strong, 300 lbs. per square inch to pull apart and can be madewater resistant. It's not that difficult to work with and it is the onlyreversible, one doesn't have to plane down to new wood to reglue, that existstoday.---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 2:58 PM Subject: RE: nodeless question Hide glue (the real stuff) is also usually available from woodworking supplyplaces. It is frequently used in restoration work. As I've alwaysunderstood it, hide glue had just a few disadvantages over modern glues.First was that it needed to be heated, this was inconvenient and a firehazard. Second it was not as strong as one would like for building thingslike chairs. Third, it was subject to problems with heat and moisture. Ofthese, I'd say only the last is a real disadvantage for rodmakers. Thefirst, inconvenience, is not really a disadvantage when compared to theinconveniences we will put up with with our high-tech epoxies (difficultmixing, glue failures from improper mixing, volatile fumes, short shelflife). And the second (strength), I'm not sure that rods face the sameKINDof stresses as furniture, and I'd be willing to bet that those antique rodsthat delaminated, the delamination had a lot more to do with heat (beingleft in cars) than they did with spontaneous or stress-related glue failure. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:32 PM Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: nodeless question Bill and other's interested. You can still buy true hide glue at LuthierSupply Houses. Interntional Lutheirs Supply of Tulsa keeps it, as doesInternational Violin, Luthiers Merchantile and about any other. I stillhave some in the cabinet, but don't know what I'll ever use it for now! Later,Bob Patrick, can't one still buy the good, old stuff in powder (or pulverized)form some of the specialty woodworker catalogues like Constantine? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Cc: "Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 1:50 PMSubject: RE: nodeless question very very very strong joint and has to be soaked in water for alooooooooong time before it fails. Stradavarie violins have stood up forhundreds of years in all sorts of humidities and are still together. Itcanbe made water resistant and takes about 300 lbs. per square inch to pullapart. The liquid is lousy but the old stuff is great. Used it every dayfor8 years when I was a luthier. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 4:56 AM Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: nodeless question OOOOPS! Wrong answer, wrong question. That was meant as an answer toTerryKirkpatrick. The reply that goes with YOUR note is this one - why does anyoneusehide glue these days? Not that I think they shouldn't; it's just that Iwould have thought that they were a bit passe. Peter ----- Original Message -----From: Bamboo Joe Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:44 AMSubject: Re: nodeless question When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day 2000, he was usingTitebond II for demo rods, and Hide Glue for his for sale rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf joints. I did howeverbuy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips up. Did noticethat the liquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than the TitebondII. Someone was telling me that the liquid hide glue is not as good astheground hide glue. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message -----From: setissma Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:17 PMSubject: nodeless question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodelessconstruction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write downwhether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would itmatter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences withtheseproducts for nodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Thu Jul 5 10:33:11 2001 f65FXBZ07086 Subject: Re: Meeting Rodmakers This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Tony, I knew I had entered the twilight zone...2 seconds after I placed my =first glued up blank in the binder.....lol..... losey Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 9:44 AMSubject: Re: Meeting Rodmakers with other rodmakers. In his travels he sudden realizes that home is =not as far away as he has suspected.Enter Doug, what Doug doesn't realize is that Just joking Doug, you know me ha ha haTony Miller Tony, I knew I had entered the twilight = after I placed my first glued up blank in the =binder.....lol..... losey ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 = AMSubject: Re: Meeting =Rodmakers Enter a man, who is = converse with other rodmakers. In his= sudden realizes that home is not as far away as he has =suspected.Enter Doug, what Dougdoesn't = that in = Just joking Doug, you knowme = haTony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Jul 5 10:35:07 2001 f65FZ6Z07248 IAA07756 IAA22894 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: nodeless question never ever ever use liquid. there is may type, some made from cattle andhorses, some made from fish skin, some made from rabbit (secondstrongest) and the strongest made from the skin of a poisonous frog fromsouth America. ---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 7:24 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: nodeless question But isn't there two kinds of hideglue? The one we want comes in powderform and must be mixed, we do not want the premixed if I am not mistaken. John Z. your input please. Bret from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Jul 5 10:36:50 2001 f65FanZ07481 IAA10333 IAA00994 (5.5.2650.21) "'robertgkope@home.com'" Subject: RE: nodeless question you generally have about 5-15 minutes assembly time. ---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:23 PM Subject: Re: nodeless question Bret, It's much more complicated than that. Hide glues (ignoring the liquid stuff)come from different animal hides so you can get different hide gluesdepending on the species of animal the hide came from. You can also get it ingranular or ground form. Better hide glues from luthier supply places arealso available in different gram strengths. In general, a higher gramstrength glue is stronger, but has a shorter working time before it sets, andit can set in seconds because it is essentially a gelatin, and gels as it cools. glue dries. You can extend the working time by mixing it thinner or by addingurea to it, but either of these also makes it weaker. And, whoever made the comment about it not being strong enough forchairs, furniture recovered from Egyptian tombs was glued up with hide glue,and those joints are still intact after thousands of years. -- Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: Grhghlndr@aol.com Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 7:24 PMSubject: Re: nodeless question But isn't there two kinds of hideglue? The one we want comes inpowder form and must be mixed, we do not want the premixed if I am not mistaken. John Z. your input please. Bret from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Jul 5 10:44:13 2001 f65FiCZ08083 IAA17032 IAA00137 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: nodeless question furniture makers switched to the new glues only because they are lesscomplicated to deal with! Hide glue is much stronger and holds up extremelywell to racking, I have 100+ year old furniture that I sit on and use on a dailybasis and the glue hold superbly. Upright basses are glued with it and theyare constantly moving (vibrating) whiled being play and rarely if ever haveglue failure. the furniture industry left is behind for the same reason res.glue was left behind- the new glues come in a handy applicator bottle and usecan buy if off the shelf, you dont have to soak, mix or heat to use. ---------- Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 7:34 AM Subject: RE: nodeless question And, whoever made the comment about it not being strong enough glue, and those joints are still intact after thousands of years. I made that comment, and I'd have to add that those Egyptian chairshave not held anyone's tuckus during those thousands of years (unless youbuy into the whole Egyptian life in the afterlife theory and believe thosePharoahs are down there partying). The fact is that most modern furnituremakers left the hide glue behind because it doesn't stand up as well to thestresses that furniture joints tend to see, wracking being the main problem. As I pointed out in my original post, that may or may not be relevant torodmaking, and I would suspect is not relevant to the luthiers who certainlyhope their instruments will not be twisted around their axes. The originalpoint I made was simply that hide glue has been mainly left behind by thefurniture industry and for a variety of good reasons, but that should notnecessarily matter to rodmakers. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Jul 5 12:13:29 2001 f65HDSZ11520 KAA26633 Subject: stamping This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I am interesting in having a stamp made for marking reel seats. Where =could I find such a tool? Adam Vigil I am interesting in having a stamp made= reel seats. Where could I find such a tool? AdamVigil from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Jul 5 13:27:07 2001 f65IR6Z14338 LAA10963 LAA20937 0700 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: test from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Jul 5 13:43:29 2001 f65IhSZ14911 f65IhQK10872 Subject: Re: Sir D? In regards to the Sir D.I have had several replies off list that seem to be correcting me on what Iposted, so I will post this to the list being that this came on the list.No offense to you Tony.I know this is Wayne's taper that was slightly modified.I think that is what my post says. I in no way had intended to relay any thingdifferent.Please reread the post. It does say it is Wayne's taper that was modified atstation 5,10 and 15.I would be glad to know what the problem is, if any with the way I posted.I think it is one of the best tapers I have made so far.Not upset, just want to know why the messages I am getting, telling me whatIthought I had already posted.If for some unknown reason I stepped on someone's toes I apologize. I stilldon't know what is in my post to get replies off list that seem to be sayingthesame thing I said in the post.If I am taking this a personal thing then I am taking it the wrong way. I amjust surprised at the off list messages when I normally don't get replies onother things I post.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony Young wrote: There is quite a lot of confusion in the naming of this rod. The Sir D isthe original as per the first WC book. It's a long story but the modifiedtaper is the actually the Sir D with the DH modification.Either one is a great taper. Tony At 05:23 PM 7/3/01 -0500, Tony Spezio wrote:Tony,The Sir D is Wayne's taper with .002 added atstation 5, 10, 15. The rest is the same, This is agreat little rod and I have made no less than tenof them.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony Miller wrote: I made the 7' 4wt. out of Wayne C's book, isthat the taperthat everyone calls the Sir D oris that a different taper?Tony Miller /**************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The only dif between kids and grown ups is sooner or later everyonelearns to not pick yer nose and scratch ya bum in public Paul Hogan back when he was really funny /**************************************************************************/ from teekay35@interlynx.net Thu Jul 5 14:30:30 2001 f65JUTZ16712 Subject: Re: stamping This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I had a stamp made much like the one described in Cattenach's book. It =was made by a local tool and die shop (Hamilton, Ontario, Can.) that =specializes in marking and stamping dies. Cost about $175 Cdn several =years ago. Look in the yellow pages under stamping or marking dies, or =call a tool and die shop and ask who does this kind of work. = (Hamilton, Ontario, Can.) that specializes in marking and stamping = stamping or marking dies, or call a tool and die shop and ask who does = of work. from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Jul 5 15:05:01 2001 f65K50Z17825 Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:04:14 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: What do you Know? --------------E70396965D27080FFF2DC259 Hi Tim,You have no worries with Robert ("Bob"), sometimes he runs a littlebehind, but with good reason..... his work is always in demand(quality alwaysis).I have dealt with him for quite a while now and I'm sure he'll takecareof you,Shawn Tim Doughty wrote: Hi List, I place and order with Bob Venneri for N/S tubing and was told that it wouldship Wednesday, June 20. My check in payment was cashed on 6/15 and tothis datethe tubing has not shown up. I have sent him e-mail to inquire but to date Ihavenot heard from him. Have any of you dealt with him before and what wasyourexperience? Sorry to use this forum for this. Take care, Tim. Upstream Always Tim Doughty Rodmaker --------------E70396965D27080FFF2DC259 Hi Tim, You have no worries with Robert ("Bob"), sometimes he runs a little behind,but with good reason..... his work is always in demand(quality always is). I have dealt with him for quite a while now and I'm sure he'll take careof you, ShawnTim Doughty wrote: Normal0DocumentEmail HiList, Iplace and order with Bob Venneri for N/S tubing and was told that it would June 20. My check in payment was cashed on 6/15 and to this date thetubinghas not shown up. I have sent him e-mail to inquire but to date I havenot heard from him. Have any of you dealt with him before and what wasyour experience? Sorry to use this forum for this. Take care,Tim. AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mailSignature" UpstreamAlways TimDoughty Rodmaker --------------E70396965D27080FFF2DC259-- from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Thu Jul 5 15:13:17 2001 f65KDGZ18327 pri.pacificare.com (Tumbleweed ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:12:45 -0700 Subject: RE: Sir D? Wow, I can't imagine someone getting bent out of shape over this.Here is the story:Several years a go I helped an English chap with a problem he was havingwith some aspect of his rodmaking. He was so grateful he "knighted" me "SirDarryl". At the same time I was raving about Wayne Cattanach's 7' 4wt 2piece. Wayne himself started calling it the "Sir Darryl Favorite". Later, asI became more knowledgable with stress curves I didn't like the way thestresses went so high at the 5, 10, and 15 inch stations, so I added .002 tothose diameters. I consider the change so minor that it doesn't deserve tobe called a different taper. I consider Wayne's taper to be Wayne's taper - period. I take no credit for any part of it. He just liked calling it the"Sir D" taper.Darryl -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Sir D? In regards to the Sir D.I have had several replies off list that seem to be correcting me on whatIposted, so I will post this to the list being that this came on the list.No offense to you Tony.I know this is Wayne's taper that was slightly modified.I think that is what my post says. I in no way had intended to relay anythingdifferent.Please reread the post. It does say it is Wayne's taper that was modifiedatstation 5,10 and 15.I would be glad to know what the problem is, if any with the way I posted.I think it is one of the best tapers I have made so far.Not upset, just want to know why the messages I am getting, telling mewhat Ithought I had already posted.If for some unknown reason I stepped on someone's toes I apologize. Istilldon't know what is in my post to get replies off list that seem to besaying thesame thing I said in the post.If I am taking this a personal thing then I am taking it the wrong way. Iamjust surprised at the off list messages when I normally don't get repliesonother things I post.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony Young wrote: There is quite a lot of confusion in the naming of this rod. The Sir Disthe original as per the first WC book. It's a long story but themodifiedtaper is the actually the Sir D with the DH modification.Either one is a great taper. Tony At 05:23 PM 7/3/01 -0500, Tony Spezio wrote:Tony,The Sir D is Wayne's taper with .002 added atstation 5, 10, 15. The rest is the same, This is agreat little rod and I have made no less than tenof them.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony Miller wrote: I made the 7' 4wt. out of Wayne C's book, isthat the taperthat everyone calls the Sir D oris that a different taper?Tony Miller /**************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The only dif between kids and grown ups is sooner or later everyonelearns to not pick yer nose and scratch ya bum in public Paul Hogan back when he was really funny /**************************************************************************/ This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Jul 5 17:21:20 2001 f65MLJZ25445 PAA00509 Subject: Heat Treating Trial- findings- attached experiment delete if notwanted This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I have completed a heat treating trial on tonkin bamboo. Six different =methods were employed. I have distributed the experiment to various =rodmakers for review. from those that have responded it has been given =the thumbs up. I only released the report after it was reviewed.It has =been attached because many have requested it. I hope you find it informative and useful, Adam Vigil I have completed a heat treating trial = bamboo. Six different methods were employed. I have distributed the = to various rodmakers for review. from those that have responded it has = given the thumbs up. I only released the report after it was reviewed.It = been attached because many have requested it.>Fromharms1@pa.net Thu Jul 5 17:49:14 2001 f65MnDZ26199 , Subject: Re: What do you Know? Bob Venneri is a first class guy, who will treat you fairly and provide atruly first rate product. Something very much out of the ordinary musthavehappened, because Bob would never short-change any of us. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: What do you Know? Tim,I've had several dealings with Bob and he is a top notch businessman.NEVER had any problem with ordering from him whether it be reel seats orrouter bits to make my own reel seats or just free advice from him. Regards,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: Tim Doughty Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 7:32 AMSubject: What do you Know? Hi List, I place and order with Bob Venneri for N/S tubing and was told that itwould ship Wednesday, June 20. My check in payment was cashed on 6/15and tothis date the tubing has not shown up. I have sent him e-mail to inquire butto date I have not heard from him. Have any of you dealt with him before andwhat was your experience? Sorry to use this forum for this. Take care, Tim. Upstream Always Tim Doughty Rodmaker from raby@greenvillenc.com Thu Jul 5 17:49:27 2001 f65MnQZ26231 Subject: HONING GUIDE This is a multi-part message in MIME format. CAN ANYONE ADVISE WHERE I CAN PURCHASE A HONING GUIDE FOR A BLOCKPLANE = CAN ANYONE ADVISE WHERE I CAN= from hartzell@easystreet.com Thu Jul 5 17:53:09 2001 f65Mr8Z26657 Subject: Walt.Powell AllJohn Eustice just informed me that Walton Powell died veryrecently. Funeral this weekend. One of the last of the old group weloved so well.Ed Hartzell from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jul 5 18:24:39 2001 f65NOcZ27730 Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:24:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Sir D? Darryl,Thanks for taking the time to tell the whole story. You're a class act,Harry Hayashida Darryl wrote: Wow, I can't imagine someone getting bent out of shape over this.Here is the story: from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jul 5 18:27:24 2001 f65NRNZ27967 Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:27:15 -0700 Subject: Re: HONING GUIDE --------------B0A13F67883B6FC0624335B8 Al,Might want to turn your Caps Lock off. Some folks thinkthat all capitals in email is akin to shouting in face toface conversation. Give Lea Valley tools a shot at the Honing Guide. Ilike theirs best of the several I have tried. Harry Boyd Alvin & Sandy Raby wrote: CAN ANYONE ADVISE WHERE I CAN PURCHASE A HONING GUIDE FORA BLOCK PLANE BLADE.THANK YOU, AL --------------B0A13F67883B6FC0624335B8 Al, Somefolks think that all capitals in email is akin to shouting in face to faceconversation. I like theirs best of the several I have tried. Alvin & Sandy Raby wrote: ANYONEADVISE WHERE I CAN PURCHASE A HONING GUIDE FOR A BLOCK PLANEBLADE.THANKYOU, AL --------------B0A13F67883B6FC0624335B8-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Jul 5 18:50:54 2001 f65NorZ28502 Subject: Re: What do you Know? rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I have had great dealings with BV and I can assure you that he is very busy sometimes and possibly like some of us does not get to his mail for a long bit of time. Give Bob a call and I can most assuredly promise that you will receive an answer that way.Bret I have had great dealings with BV and I can assure you that he is verybusy sometimes and possibly like some of us does not get to his mail for along you will receive an answer that way.Bret from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Jul 5 19:12:53 2001 f660CqZ28887 Subject: Re: What do you Know? rodsupstream@exploremaine.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler) passing away. I for one will miss him on the list and I hope everyone who had contact with him will drop his family a line and offer their condolences. I had the pleasure of talking to him many times on the phone and I can only say that he was one cool guy.( Moment of silence). I hope you all offer him the same in his memory.Bret I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler)passing had contact with him will drop his family a line and offer their condolences. had the pleasure of talking to him many times on the phone and I canonly say that he was one cool guy.( memory.Bret from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jul 5 19:13:09 2001 f660D8Z28971 Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:13:01 -0700 Subject: Re: Walt.Powell Ed,I'm very sorry to hear of Walton Powell's passing on. As you said,there aren't many from that old school left among us. Should any of yoube able to make the funeral services, please pass along to the familythe prayers, regrets and best wishes of rodmakers everywhere. Harry Boyd Ed Hartzell wrote: AllJohn Eustice just informed me that Walton Powell died veryrecently. Funeral this weekend. One of the last of the old group weloved so well.Ed Hartzell --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Thu Jul 5 19:13:32 2001 f660DVZ29054 Subject: FW: What do you know? Heard from Bob V. REPOST This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Upstream Always Tim DoughtyRodmaker -----Original Message----- Subject: What do you know? Heard from Bob V. I just got an e-mail from Bob and he apparently had and computer cash andvacation that put him behind on shipping the n/s orders. My intent was tosee what Bob's history was so I could known which way to proceed, in no waydid I want or intent to question his reputation or honesty in this matter.Had Bob keep me informed as to his troubles this would of not happen. I would like to thank the list members who responded to my inquiry, takecare, Tim. Upstream Always Tim DoughtyRodmaker Normal0DocumentEmail =A0AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail =Signature" Upstream =Always Tim Doughty Rodmaker -----Original Message-----From:owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Thursday, July 05,=200110:07 AM Subject: What do you =know? Heard from Bob V. I just got an e-mail from Bob and he apparently had and computer =cashand vacation that put him behind on shipping the n/s orders. My intent =was tosee what Bob=92s history was so I could known which way to proceed, in =no way didI want or intent to question his reputation or honesty in this matter. =Had Bobkeep me informed as to his troubles this would of not =happen. I would like to thank the list members who responded to my =inquiry, takecare, Tim. =A0AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail =Signature" Upstream =Always Tim Doughty Rodmaker from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jul 5 19:18:21 2001 f660IKZ29458 Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:18:13 -0700 Subject: Re: What do you Know? --------------EF2FB31E4B3324BD95A12C40 No Bret,I didn't get the note. George Aldrich was one of thefew real world class characters I knew. Some of you mightnot be aware that in model airplane circles he was at leastas famous as Everett Garrison is to rodmakers. I mentionedthat I knew him to a radio controlled airplane freak friend,and you would have thought that I should have removed theshoes from my feet.George attended our Southern Rodmakers Gathering lastyear. Shortly afterwards he discovered that he wassuffering from cancer. In our last correspondence Georgeimplied that he had the cancer whipped.Goes to show that time is short for all of us. I putone of the Steamer Trunk selection stickers on my car thatsays, "Life's Short -- Fish Wood." Maybe there are someother things we ought to do as well in the face of life'sshortness...Should you have any contact with George's family, pleasepass along my condolences. Harry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George(Nobler) passingaway. --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------EF2FB31E4B3324BD95A12C40 No Bret, not be aware that in model airplane circles he was at least as famous as a radio controlled airplane freak friend, and you would have thought thatI should have removed the shoes from my feet. Gathering the cancer whipped. I put one of the Steamer Trunk selection stickers on my car that says, ought to do as well in the face of life's shortness... please pass along my condolences. Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:I amsurethat you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler)passingaway.--"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------EF2FB31E4B3324BD95A12C40-- from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Jul 5 19:44:28 2001 f660iQZ29907 Thu, 5 Jul 2001 21:43:34 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: What do you Know? --------------B705DCB34254ECF54AF166EC Is something going on on the list?? Apparently I am not getting several ofthesemessages. This is the first I heard of George's passing, a real shame! Pleasesend mycondolences,Shawn Harry Boyd wrote: No Bret,I didn't get the note. George Aldrich was one of the few real world classcharacters I knew. Some of you might not be aware that in model airplanecircleshe was at least as famous as Everett Garrison is to rodmakers. Imentioned that Iknew him to a radio controlled airplane freak friend, and you would havethoughtthat I should have removed the shoes from my feet.George attended our Southern Rodmakers Gathering last year. Shortlyafterwardshe discovered that he was suffering from cancer. In our lastcorrespondence Georgeimplied that he had the cancer whipped.Goes to show that time is short for all of us. I put one of the SteamerTrunkselection stickers on my car that says, "Life's Short -- Fish Wood." Maybethereare some other things we ought to do as well in the face of life'sshortness...Should you have any contact with George's family, please pass along mycondolences. Harry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler)passingaway. --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------B705DCB34254ECF54AF166EC Is something going on on the list?? Apparently I am not getting severalof these messages. This is the first I heard of George's passing, a realshame! Please send my condolences, ShawnHarry Boyd wrote:No Bret, not be aware that in model airplane circles he was at least as famous as a radio controlled airplane freak friend, and you would have thought thatI should have removed the shoes from my feet. Gathering hadthe cancer whipped. I put one of the Steamer Trunk selection stickers on my car that says, ought to do as well in the face of life's shortness... please pass along my condolences. Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:I amsurethat you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler)passingaway.--"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------B705DCB34254ECF54AF166EC-- from bob@downandacross.com Thu Jul 5 19:50:04 2001 f660o2Z00305 Subject: Re: What do you Know? --=====================_21864854==_.ALT Bret , Harry, and guys:I missed that bit also. I had some great correspondence with George, and he was one of the most helpful guys I have ever met. I am sorry that I never got to meet him in person, he was charming and so darn intelligent it was scary. He really helped out my machining quite a bit.If you guys get a contact number/info, I would like to have it passed on. Thanks very much,Bob At 07:15 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:No Bret,I didn't get the note. George Aldrich was one of the few real world class characters I knew. Some of you might not be aware that in model airplane circles he was at least as famous as Everett Garrison is to rodmakers. I mentioned that I knew him to a radio controlled airplane freak friend, and you would have thought that I should have removed the shoes from my feet.George attended our Southern Rodmakers Gathering last year. Shortly afterwards he discovered that he was suffering from cancer. In our last correspondence George implied that he had the cancer whipped.Goes to show that time is short for all of us. I put one of the Steamer Trunk selection stickers on my car that says, "Life's Short -- Fish Wood." Maybe there are some other things we ought to do as well in the face of life's shortness...Should you have any contact with George's family, please pass along my condolences. Harry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler)passingaway.--"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."- - Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --=====================_21864854==_.ALT Bret , Harry, and guys:I missed that bit also. I had some great correspondence with George, andhe was one of the most helpful guys I have ever met. I am sorry that Inever got to meet him in person, he was charming and so darn intelligentit was scary. He really helped out my machining quite a bit. If you guys get a contact number/info, I would like to have it passed on.Thanks very much,BobAt 07:15 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:No Bret, be aware that in model airplane circles he was at least as famous as radio controlled airplane freak friend, and you would have thought that Ishould have removed the shoes from my feet. last cancer whipped. put one of the Steamer Trunk selection stickers on my car that says, things we ought to do as well in the face of life's shortness... please pass along my condolences. Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: I am surethat you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler) passing away.-- "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." -Bamboo Rods -- Our --=====================_21864854==_.ALT-- from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Jul 5 20:45:23 2001 f661jNZ01011 f661jLK26082 Subject: Re: What do you Know? I had not heard about this . I was waiting forGeorge to reply to a message I sent him last week. What a shock.I spent the week before the SRG with George in myshop making the Para 15 blank for him. George alsobought all my old gas sparkplug model engines Ihad had for years. I can't believe what I justread.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Harry Boyd wrote: No Bret,I didn't get the note. George Aldrich wasone of the few real world class characters Iknew. Some of you might not be aware that inmodel airplane circles he was at least as famousas Everett Garrison is to rodmakers. Imentioned that I knew him to a radio controlledairplane freak friend, and you would havethought that I should have removed the shoes from my feet.George attended our Southern RodmakersGathering last year. Shortly afterwards hediscovered that he was suffering from cancer.In our last correspondence George implied thathe had the cancer whipped.Goes to show that time is short for all ofus. I put one of the Steamer Trunk selectionstickers on my car that says, "Life's Short --Fish Wood." Maybe there are some other thingswe ought to do as well in the face of life'sshortness...Should you have any contact with George'sfamily, please pass along my condolences. Harry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: I am sure that you all got the recent postingabout George (Nobler) passingaway. --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from rmoon@ida.net Thu Jul 5 20:48:06 2001 f661m6Z01164 Subject: Re: What do you Know? --------------56DF715C36FDCF7159A7EB0C I'd like to add my sentiments to those of others. I only knew \Georgethrough the rod list. We didn't always agree, but I never found himanything other than a perfect gentleman. I shall miss him! Ralph Harry Boyd wrote: No Bret,I didn't get the note. George Aldrich was one of the few realworld class characters I knew. Some of you might not be aware that inmodel airplane circles he was at least as famous as Everett Garrisonis to rodmakers. I mentioned that I knew him to a radio controlledairplane freak friend, and you would have thought that I should haveremoved the shoes from my feet.George attended our Southern Rodmakers Gathering last year.Shortly afterwards he discovered that he was suffering from cancer.In our last correspondence George implied that he had the cancerwhipped.Goes to show that time is short for all of us. I put one of theSteamer Trunk selection stickers on my car that says, "Life's Short -- Fish Wood." Maybe there are some other things we ought to do as wellin the face of life's shortness...Should you have any contact with George's family, please passalong my condolences. Harry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler)passingaway. --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------56DF715C36FDCF7159A7EB0C RalphHarry Boyd wrote:No Bret, not be aware that in model airplane circles he was at least as famous as a radio controlled airplane freak friend, and you would have thought thatI should have removed the shoes from my feet. Gathering the cancer whipped. I put one of the Steamer Trunk selection stickers on my car that says, ought to do as well in the face of life's shortness... please pass along my condolences. Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:I amsurethat you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler)passingaway.--"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------56DF715C36FDCF7159A7EB0C-- from jojo@ipa.net Thu Jul 5 20:52:59 2001 f661qwZ01464 Subject: Bob's Book Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and read BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta' people,afraid to step on some toes? Excuse me, but Bob did that for you. Now comeon, surely this book must have raised as many questions with you, as it haswith me. Anybody have a clue as to what the optimum time/temp might beforheat treating/drying? After seeing the data, will any of you ever flameanother rod? Still think you can keep your blanks from adsorbing intoequilibrium, when the strips probably did that as you were planing them, notto mention that if you dried the blank in a drying cabinet, then took it outto dress the ferrule stations, you re-aquified it all over again. Seems thatthis is an effort in futility, unless you are working in a controlledenvironment. And what about the analysis of what makes good cane? Bluebuttcane might be better but is smaller in diameter. Ever try to make a 7 wt.and have the strips flat on the enamel side using the mid- cut?Come on people, open up! M-D from bob@downandacross.com Thu Jul 5 21:05:44 2001 f6625hZ01798 Subject: Re: Bob's Book M-DI reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers, and I think it is a great book. How does that song go, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, and you don't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob for doing all these and more. SO much for the old ways.One question I have raised by the book is what is the recommended way to stain cane if you heat treat and want a darker appearance? I tried some MinWax stain today, and it seems to be ineffective on light oven baked cane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote:Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and read BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta' people,afraid to step on some toes? Excuse me, but Bob did that for you. Nowcomeon, surely this book must have raised as many questions with you, as it haswith me. Anybody have a clue as to what the optimum time/temp might beforheat treating/drying? After seeing the data, will any of you ever flameanother rod? Still think you can keep your blanks from adsorbing intoequilibrium, when the strips probably did that as you were planing them, notto mention that if you dried the blank in a drying cabinet, then took it outto dress the ferrule stations, you re-aquified it all over again. Seems thatthis is an effort in futility, unless you are working in a controlledenvironment. And what about the analysis of what makes good cane? Bluebuttcane might be better but is smaller in diameter. Ever try to make a 7 wt.and have the strips flat on the enamel side using the mid- cut?Come on people, open up! M-D from lblan@provide.net Thu Jul 5 21:07:07 2001 f66276Z01986 Subject: RE: What do you Know? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Like many others, my only contact with George was via the list. Over thepast couple of years, we've had several series of notes back and forth aboutYoung rods. George was a wealth of information, and a true pleasure tocorrespond with.Larry Blan-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 8:05 PM rodsupstream@exploremaine.com;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: What do you Know? I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler)passingaway. I for one will miss him on the list and I hope everyone who hadcontact with him will drop his family a line and offer their condolences.Ihad the pleasure of talking to him many times on the phone and I can onlysaythat he was one cool guy.( Moment of silence). I hope you all offer him the same in his memory.Bret many others, my only contact with George was via the list. Over the past = of years, we've had several series of notes back and forth about Young = with. Blan Grhghlndr@aol.comSent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 rodsupstream@exploremaine.com; = Re: What do you Know?I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George = everyone who had contact with him will drop his family a line and = on the phone and I can only say that he was one cool guy.( = Bret from lblan@provide.net Thu Jul 5 21:10:38 2001 f662AbZ02236 Subject: RE: Bob's Book Good point(s). BTW... I'll be happy to take all of those old, worthlessflamed rods off everyone's hands. -----Original Message----- Subject: Bob's Book Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and read BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta' people,afraid to step on some toes? Excuse me, but Bob did that for you. Now comeon, surely this book must have raised as many questions with you, as it haswith me. Anybody have a clue as to what the optimum time/temp might beforheat treating/drying? After seeing the data, will any of you ever flameanother rod? Still think you can keep your blanks from adsorbing intoequilibrium, when the strips probably did that as you were planing them, notto mention that if you dried the blank in a drying cabinet, then took it outto dress the ferrule stations, you re-aquified it all over again. Seems thatthis is an effort in futility, unless you are working in a controlledenvironment. And what about the analysis of what makes good cane? Bluebuttcane might be better but is smaller in diameter. Ever try to make a 7 wt.and have the strips flat on the enamel side using the mid- cut?Come on people, open up! M-D from seanmcs@iprimus.com.au Thu Jul 5 21:14:59 2001 f662EwZ02507 Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:14:51 +1000 Subject: Re: Walt.Powell FILETIME=[70C5E910:01C105C1] Hello: I want to add that Walt Powell was a real gent. He made me a rodthat got its two tips broken in transit, and while they were reset,obviously the rod was 1" short. Later the guy called me from California,to Europe, and insisted on making me a second rod, free, any design ofmy choice. I still have it and value it much. Sean Harry Boyd wrote: Ed,I'm very sorry to hear of Walton Powell's passing on. As you said,there aren't many from that old school left among us. Should any of yoube able to make the funeral services, please pass along to the familythe prayers, regrets and best wishes of rodmakers everywhere. Harry Boyd Ed Hartzell wrote: AllJohn Eustice just informed me that Walton Powell died veryrecently. Funeral this weekend. One of the last of the old group weloved so well.Ed Hartzell --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Jul 5 21:30:50 2001 f662UnZ02899 TAA15142 Subject: Heat treating cane trial This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Everyone, I have a heat treating of cane experiment I have finished. I have sent =it for review to many well known members on the list and they have given =it a thumbs up. I tried to send it to the list as an attachment, but it =did not seem to post to many people. If you are interested in receiving =a copy I will send you one. It also looks like it will be published in =the October Powerfibers. Best Regards, Adam Vigil I have a heat treating of cane = finished. I have sent it for review to many well known members on the = they have given it a thumbs up. I tried to send it to the list as an = but it did not seem to post to many people. If you are interested in = copy I will send you one. It also looks like it will be published in the = Powerfibers. Best Regards, AdamVigil from jojo@ipa.net Thu Jul 5 21:32:39 2001 f662WdZ03051 Subject: Re: Bob's Book LOL, too. You always crack me up, Bob. Remember we had a small discussionabout this at Sowbug? At the time I only knew what Bob had told me, and hadnone of the data behind it. I, too, have always preferred flamed rods. In ashort, "Any darkening of the bamboo colour represents loss of both tensileand flexural strength, due to degradation of cellulose fibre." With flamingthis seems to stem from the destruction of surface layer strength, which isthe most important. Good idea on your new book. Might you call it "Bob's Bumblings" instead?There's no telling how many of those books Mr. Brunsell has sold. You go,girl! (Stop the camera, please.) M-D LOL, Guess I'll have to get this book and read it M-D! Someone had toldmethat it went against a lot of conventional thinking, and in the samebreathsaid I would probably like it, since I did the same! I haven't evenorderedthe book... what is the deal with flaming cane? Give me a quick synopsisofthat subject, as flamed rods are my favorite and not just for theappearance! Later,Bob PS: btw, I'm writing a book also, but NOT a rodmaking book... compilingallthe "Bob Happenings" into one big lump... should be published by the endofthe year, just depends on some things. May put a first edition out myselfin a "printshop" form, much like old man Brunsell's book. Before I can dothat, I need to find out how to get an ISBN number and Library of Congressnumber assigned.R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm From: "Jojo DeLancier" Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and read BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes? from jojo@ipa.net Thu Jul 5 21:35:23 2001 f662ZLZ03284 Subject: Re: Bob's Book Yep, I read it Bob. Good write up, and issue, as usual. In my usually notsohumble opinion, this book is the most important technical work ever doneonbamboo and its use in fly rods. Hell, I think it is the only technicalworkever done, for that matter.I've been trying different things to achieve the darker look but am stillsearching. One of the things Bob mentioned is that the older rods haddarkened. Probably so since I'm guessing that in the varnishes they usedthe oil was primarily linseed, which darkens with age. M-D From: "Downandacross Rods" M-DI reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers, and I think it is a greatbook.How does that song go, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spitinto the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, and youdon't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob for doing all these and more.SOmuch for the old ways.One question I have raised by the book is what is the recommended waytostain cane if you heat treat and want a darker appearance? I tried someMinWax stain today, and it seems to be ineffective on light oven bakedcane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote:Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and readBobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes? Excuse me, but Bob did that for you. Nowcomeon, surely this book must have raised as many questions with you, as ithaswith me. Anybody have a clue as to what the optimum time/temp mightbeforheat treating/drying? After seeing the data, will any of you ever flameanother rod? Still think you can keep your blanks from adsorbing intoequilibrium, when the strips probably did that as you were planingthem,notto mention that if you dried the blank in a drying cabinet, then tookitoutto dress the ferrule stations, you re-aquified it all over again. Seemsthatthis is an effort in futility, unless you are working in a controlledenvironment. And what about the analysis of what makes good cane?Bluebuttcane might be better but is smaller in diameter. Ever try to make a 7wt.and have the strips flat on the enamel side using the mid- cut?Come on people, open up! M-D from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jul 5 21:44:20 2001 f662iJZ03654 Subject: Which Reamers? Friends,I'm attempting a few ferrules for the first time, andwill have to purchase reamers to do the close work. Wouldyou suggest straight fluted reamers or spiral fluted reamers difference? Thanks in advance,Harry --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Jul 5 21:49:55 2001 f662nsZ03911 Subject: Fwd: Notice to Friends/Nobler List,Here is the post I received from George's family. I am sure they would appreciate any messages sent by members of the list. Please be sure andtell them you knew George form the list.Bret -0400 Thu, 05 Jul 2001 15:28:04 -0400 f65JOQu3006862;Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:24:26 -0500 "Arthur Adamisin" , ,"Coffey, Patrick W" ,"Bob Dixon" , ,,,"Scott Riese" , "De F Hill" ,"Bret Reiter" , ,"Neil Alleyn" ,"Karen Hollingsworth" ,"'Goran Olsson'" ,"Bob Lipscomb" , ,"Ralph Tenny" , "Gloria Lotz",, "Brian Horrocks",, ,"John Kelinske" ,"Brian \(work\) Gardner" ,,, ,, ,"Jim Barkdull" ,"'Peter Germann'" , ,"Eric J. Viglione" , "Ken Croft" ,, "Jim Simpson" ,"Andrew Coholic" ,"Russ Bates" , ,"Tandy C. Walker" ,,,"'Rene' & Monique Berger'" , Subject: Notice to Friends Dear Friends, We wish to thank you for all the beautiful notes you have sent toGeorge over the past several weeks and days. Your kindness has meant somuch to us all. George passed away peacefully yesterday afternoon, July 4,2001, surrounded by his family and friends. Arrangements are being madefora memorial service here in San Antonio for Monday July 9th at 2:00 pm attheSt. Andrew Presbyterian Church. Another memorial service will be held inMuncie, Indiana at the AMA in honor of a lifetime dedicated to the modelairplane organization.Again, thank you for all your well wishes. George's battle with cancerwas difficult but your kindness brought him strength. We do request that inlieu of flowers, that donations be made in George's name to the AMA's YouthOrganization to help keep his passion for modeling alive for futuregenerations. Sincerely,The family of George M. Aldrich from bob@downandacross.com Thu Jul 5 21:57:47 2001 f662vjZ04192 Subject: Re: Which Reamers? Hi Harry:GMA suggested straight fluted. That's what I have used, and they work well. I am no expert though. I need to get some blind hole laps now to really get a nice pop.Bob At 09:41 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Friends,I'm attempting a few ferrules for the first time, andwill have to purchase reamers to do the close work. Wouldyou suggest straight fluted reamers or spiral fluted reamers difference? Thanks in advance,Harry --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from channer@frontier.net Thu Jul 5 22:06:02 2001 f66361Z04705 Subject: Re: HONING GUIDE Alvin;Grizzly, Garrett-Wade, Japan Woodworker, Harbor-Freight, etc,etc,etc.Any good tool store will have several different makesJohn Alvin & Sandy Raby wrote: CAN ANYONE ADVISE WHERE I CAN PURCHASE A HONING GUIDE FOR A BLOCKPLANE BLADE.THANK YOU, AL from channer@frontier.net Thu Jul 5 22:15:07 2001 f663F6Z05273 Subject: Re: Bob's Book Bob;Bamboo is too dense to absorb oil stains, they don't open the "grain"Try an aniline dye, they are mixed with water or alcohol. Or tint thevarnish. An oil stain would have to be brushed or wiped on the bamboo,then not rubbed off as you would with wood, makes it look muddy. BTW,read both your review and the book, got it the other day and read it inone nite, lots of good stuff, Bob worked real hard to amass all thisdata. I will probably still flame my rods, maybe not as dark, butmedium, but I will bake at a lower temp for a longer time, if I botherat all, it's pretty dry down here in the 4 Corners anyway, and about150f in the attic space of my shop most days.John Downandacross Rods wrote: M-DI reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers, and I think it is a great book.How does that song go, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spitinto the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, and youdon't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob for doing all these and more. SOmuch for the old ways.One question I have raised by the book is what is the recommended way tostain cane if you heat treat and want a darker appearance? I tried someMinWax stain today, and it seems to be ineffective on light oven bakedcane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote:Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and read BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes? Excuse me, but Bob did that for you. Nowcomeon, surely this book must have raised as many questions with you, as ithaswith me. Anybody have a clue as to what the optimum time/temp mightbe forheat treating/drying? After seeing the data, will any of you ever flameanother rod? Still think you can keep your blanks from adsorbing intoequilibrium, when the strips probably did that as you were planing them,notto mention that if you dried the blank in a drying cabinet, then took it outto dress the ferrule stations, you re-aquified it all over again. Seems thatthis is an effort in futility, unless you are working in a controlledenvironment. And what about the analysis of what makes good cane? Bluebuttcane might be better but is smaller in diameter. Ever try to make a 7 wt.and have the strips flat on the enamel side using the mid- cut?Come on people, open up! M-D from jojo@ipa.net Thu Jul 5 22:25:38 2001 f663PcZ05579 Subject: Re: Bob's Book John, I had thought of adding some universal color to the varnish in an effort totint it. I'm sure this would work, if one could find a suitable colorcombination, which shouldn't be that hard considering the availability ofcolors, scanners, and the local hardware store with their color mixer. Theonly thing that gives pause is that the colors do nothing to add to thevarnish coat. They are merely taking up space, and I'm not sure what, if anydetrimental effect this might have on the integrity of the coats, and the UVhindrance. The latest thing I've tried has been spirit stains. Still trying to get whatI want. M-D Bob;Bamboo is too dense to absorb oil stains, they don't open the "grain"Try an aniline dye, they are mixed with water or alcohol. Or tint thevarnish. An oil stain would have to be brushed or wiped on the bamboo,then not rubbed off as you would with wood, makes it look muddy. BTW,read both your review and the book, got it the other day and read it inone nite, lots of good stuff, Bob worked real hard to amass all thisdata. I will probably still flame my rods, maybe not as dark, butmedium, but I will bake at a lower temp for a longer time, if I botherat all, it's pretty dry down here in the 4 Corners anyway, and about150f in the attic space of my shop most days.John Downandacross Rods wrote: M-DI reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers, and I think it is a greatbook.How does that song go, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spitinto the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, and youdon't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob for doing all these and more.SOmuch for the old ways.One question I have raised by the book is what is the recommended waytostain cane if you heat treat and want a darker appearance? I tried someMinWax stain today, and it seems to be ineffective on light oven bakedcane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote:Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and readBobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes? from channer@frontier.net Thu Jul 5 22:27:54 2001 f663RsZ05792 Subject: Re: Heat Treating Trial- findings- attached experiment delete if not wanted Adam; Adam;Very interesting and informative, thank you. John Adam Vigil wrote: I have completed a heat treating trial on tonkin bamboo. Six differentmethods were employed. I have distributed the experiment to variousrodmakers for review. from those that have responded it has been giventhe thumbs up. I only released the report after it was reviewed.It hasbeen attached because many have requested it. I hope you find it informative and useful, Adam Vigil from irish-george@chartermi.net Thu Jul 5 22:29:32 2001 f663TVZ05988 23:29:29 -0400 Subject: Archives??? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I've been off the list for quite some time and would like to catch up a =bit. Is anyone keeping the archives after Feb. 2000? Thanks in advance,George Bourke (now about 60% settled in MI) I've been off the list for quite some = 2000? Thanks in advance,George Bourke (now about 60% settledin = MI) from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Jul 5 22:47:35 2001 f663lYZ06457 Subject: Flyfisherman Magazines Does anyone know where I can get rid of my collection of old FFM? I have them almost complete from the beginning to about early 1990s.Bret Does anyone know where I can get rid of my collection of old FFM? them almost complete from the beginning to about early 1990s.Bret from utzerath@execpc.com Thu Jul 5 22:48:30 2001 f663mTZ06583 f663odV40585; f663g6K12837; Subject: Re: Bob's Book OK Martin, I'll say it. I agree with almost everything Bob has concluded about thematerial science of Tonkin cane; it is consistent with every substantivestudy I've read and everything I've observed. It is more remarkable in thatit represents so many years of Bob's own research that came together intodefinitive conclusions. It should give every rodmaker comfort to know he is dealing with materialsand methods that will yield a consistently predictable product. In otherwords, the seemingly thousands of variables that we fear influences ourworkare reduced to only the culm selection and the dimensions, assuming wefollow the usual rules elsewhere. But we sort of knew that all along; else,we wouldn't have been faithfully reproducing classic tapers expecting toduplicate their casting characteristics. I'll point out just two relatively minor problems I noted that might provokesome discussion: 1. Node strength and modulus does not seem to be lessthaninternodal values according to many reports. 2. The computed stress atthemaximum curvature during the haul seems to be close to or to exceed theelastic limit of the material. Why is the cane not damaged more often underthese normal casting conditions? That said, I think we have a new bible. Jim U ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Bob's Book Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and read BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes from Lazybee45@aol.com Thu Jul 5 23:05:21 2001 f6645LZ07105 Subject: Re: What do you Know? rodsupstream@exploremaine.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 7/5/01 7:13:21 PM Central Daylight Time,Grhghlndr@aol.com writes: He will be missed in two of my major hobbies! darn!mark from ddeloach@pcisys.net Thu Jul 5 23:14:09 2001 f664E8Z07363 env- from (ddeloach@pcisys.net) Subject: Re: What do you Know? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. George was indeed a great guy, damn knowledgeable about almost =everything, especially PHY rods and in particular model aviation. aviation. He was past vice-president and current associate vice =president of the Academy of Model Aeronautics, the governing body of =model aviation in the United States. He was also a master machinist, =model engine designer and prolific engine collector. But perhaps his =greatest claim to fame is his revered control-line aerobatics model =design,the "Nobler" circa 1951. The Nobler was the prototype for the =modern stunt model of today, and probably the most recognizable of all =old-time stunters. It was an instant classic and remains so to this =day.Tens of thousands were built, starting with the first run of kits in =1957. George himself flew his Noblers to many competition wins. In recent years George had become very well known in free-flight model =circles; this is where I knew him from originally. I remember him as one =of the true old masters, helping out the annoyingly eager little kid =asking tons of questions at the flying field. Of course it turns out I =was learning from the best. Time passed and we lost touch, then he and I =happened upon each other on the rodmakers list last year when I saw his =initials GMA and the unmistakable "nobler" name in his e-mail address. =We quickly got reacquainted, reminiscing about two decades of model =flying together. And to think he was also a fly-fisherman and cane head =too--I thought, what a cool way to find old friends--the two of us = To George--light breezes and rising fish always--Don DeLoach P.S. For those of you interested in seeing George's famous Nobler...http://www.brodak.com/nobler.htm George was indeed a great guy, damn = aviation. the giants of model aviation. He was past vice-president and current = vice president of the Academy of Model Aeronautics, the governing body = aviation in the United States. He was also a master machinist, model = designer and prolific engine collector. But perhaps his greatest claim = is his revered control-line aerobatics model design, the "Nobler" circa = The Nobler was the prototype for the modern stunt model of today, and = and remains so to this day.Tens of thousands were built, starting with = run of kits in 1957. George himself flew his Noblers to many competition = wins. In recent years George had becomevery = in free-flight model circles; this is where I knew him from = remember him as one of the true old masters, helping out = eager little kid asking tons of questions at the flying field. Of course = turns out I was learning from the best. Time passed and we lost touch, = and I happened upon each other on the rodmakers list last year when I = initials GMA and the unmistakable "nobler" name in his e-mail address. = together. And to think he was also a fly-fisherman and cane head too--I = what a cool way to find old friends--the two of us sharing equally = To George--light breezes and rising = always--Don DeLoach P.S. For those of you interested in = famous Nobler... m from rmoon@ida.net Thu Jul 5 23:26:48 2001 f664QlZ07755 Subject: Re: Walt.Powell First if this is a duplicate message please forgive me. It didn't show upon my mail. The following was sent to me by Marty Seldon of the FFF. Waltdied last Sunday:Walton Powell Passed Away this weekend.Walton "Walt" Powell 1914 - 2001 Rest In Peace A gentlemen, superb fly fisherman, and rod builder thatcontinued and extended the tradition established by hisfather E.C. Powell. E.C. Powell was a well known Californiabamboo rod maker that established The Powell RodCompany in 1910. Powell Family c/oPress PowellThe Chico Fly Shop1154 W 8th Ave.Chico, CA 95926-3126530-345-9983 Ralph Harry Boyd wrote: Ed,I'm very sorry to hear of Walton Powell's passing on. As you said,there aren't many from that old school left among us. Should any of yoube able to make the funeral services, please pass along to the familythe prayers, regrets and best wishes of rodmakers everywhere. Harry Boyd from jojo@ipa.net Thu Jul 5 23:26:58 2001 f664QvZ07807 Subject: Re: Bob's Book I see that you are a man of refinement and conviction, Jim. ;o)There is so much to glean from this book that I think I discover a new pearlevery time I re-read it. The only thing that bothers me about it is that Ihave more questions than I ever had. I think Bob has cleverly set us up forthe sequel. Only, I don't want to wait another two years.The test to determine the validity of the assertion of less strength in thenode versus the internodal areas would seem to be straight forward. I needto go back and re-read some parts and see if he has covered this in thesamemanner in which I am thinking, or if I'm even in the ballpark with what I'mthinking.Ditto for the exceeding of the elastic limits. I need to re-read it and seeif there is something for me to try and grasp.Anyone else have any thoughts regarding these items, or others? M-D OK Martin, I'll say it. I agree with almost everything Bob has concluded about thematerial science of Tonkin cane; it is consistent with every substantivestudy I've read and everything I've observed. It is more remarkable inthatit represents so many years of Bob's own research that came togetherintodefinitive conclusions. It should give every rodmaker comfort to know he is dealing with materialsand methods that will yield a consistently predictable product. In otherwords, the seemingly thousands of variables that we fear influences ourworkare reduced to only the culm selection and the dimensions, assuming wefollow the usual rules elsewhere. But we sort of knew that all along;else,we wouldn't have been faithfully reproducing classic tapers expecting toduplicate their casting characteristics. I'll point out just two relatively minor problems I noted that mightprovokesome discussion: 1. Node strength and modulus does not seem to be lessthaninternodal values according to many reports. 2. The computed stress atthemaximum curvature during the haul seems to be close to or to exceed theelastic limit of the material. Why is the cane not damaged more oftenunderthese normal casting conditions? That said, I think we have a new bible. Jim U From: "Jojo DeLancier" Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and read BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes from bh887@lafn.org Thu Jul 5 23:45:01 2001 f664j0Z08700 Subject: Re: Flyfisherman Magazines This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Bret, Don't know, but have several suggestions. Your local library.Sell 'em on eBay in several year increments.Donate them to local hospitals or nursing homesSell 'em in bunches at swap meets, yard sales, or garage sales. And if any of these work, let me know. I have some straight runs of =magazines going back to 1946! Lee Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 8:47 PMSubject: Flyfisherman Magazines Does anyone know where I can get rid of my collection of old FFM? I = Bret, Don't know, but have several =suggestions. Your local library.Sell 'em on eBay in several year =increments.Donate them to local hospitals or nursing =homes = sales. straight runs of magazines going back to 1946! Lee ----- Original Message ----- Grhghlndr@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 = PMSubject: Flyfisherman =MagazinesDoesanyone = from ajthramer@hotmail.com Fri Jul 6 02:35:28 2001 f667ZSZ10677 Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:35:22 -0700 Fri, 06 Jul 2001 07:35:21 GMT Subject: Books and Cane FILETIME=[36C107E0:01C105EE] Haven't read the book and I should wait but... I read the review in PF and lost interest as soon as I came to the part about flaming, temps and all. It simply goes against my own emperical experience with alot of actual rods. I wonder if there is not an additional element that is missing. I had the intuition about the moisture content reentering and never have bothered with drying boxes or indeed even the passing fashion of retempering the cane after glue up. I have tried to glean what I could from the techniques of the old masters , they built rods day after day for many years, if there was a significant problem it would be readily apparent by now what those errors were. Of course I still use ferrule cement and a pin and like leonard pattern ferrules :) Could it be that I am already a dinosaur? Passing into the mists as onr of the uninformed codgers who simply won't learn? Head in the sand? Geegads now I'll have to add another book to the library.A.J.Thramer_________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from utzerath@execpc.com Fri Jul 6 06:10:20 2001 f66BAKZ12442 f66BCbV86168; f66B6x853902; Subject: Re: Bob's Book Less refined than convicted, Martin, Most of the questions that Bob's work raised, at least those of a functionalnature, were already answered in material science 001. Bob filled in mostof the missing data. He did not rehash the prior art as much as he suppliedhis own original contributions. I, for one, am planning to devote some timethis winter to revisiting some of my pet ideas about static load testing ofcane rods knowing what I know now-but that's another topic. The issues about about rod coloration and adhesives are less important, tome, because they have been successfully dealt with by many others. Ideasabout tools and methods will always abound; that's what makes this so muchfun. Jim U ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Bob's Book I see that you are a man of refinement and conviction, Jim. ;o)There is so much to glean from this book that I think I discover a newpearlevery time I re-read it. The only thing that bothers me about it is that Ihave more questions than I ever had. I think Bob has cleverly set us upforthe sequel. Only, I don't want to wait another two years.The test to determine the validity of the assertion of less strength inthenode versus the internodal areas would seem to be straight forward. I needto go back and re-read some parts and see if he has covered this in thesamemanner in which I am thinking, or if I'm even in the ballpark with whatI'mthinking.Ditto for the exceeding of the elastic limits. I need to re-read it andseeif there is something for me to try and grasp.Anyone else have any thoughts regarding these items, or others? M-D from p.h.e@frisurf.no Fri Jul 6 06:32:47 2001 f66BWkZ12743 (MET DST) Subject: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE from bassmeister_2000@yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 06:36:36 2001 f66BaZZ12946 06 Jul 2001 04:36:35 PDT Subject: Word for the day Rodmakers,I am also on a word for the day list to help me be all I can be.8-). The word for today seems so appropriate for us all, yetI've never heard the word mentioned in conversation. suberic (soo-BEHR-ik) adjectiveOf or pertaining to cork. [ from French suberique, from Latin suber, cork.]"Chufa de Valencia: Tuber of the species Cyperus esculentus.This comes in various shapes and sizes, has a thin outer skin,suberic tissue and a high fat and sugar content." Source: AReport from British Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food. http://www.maff.gov.uk/foodrin/foodname/fruitveg/spain/chufa.htm Have a great weekend,Joe =====Joe MulveyNashua, NH -- USA __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from bhoy551@earthlink.net Fri Jul 6 07:35:18 2001 f66CZHZ13908 Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:35:20 -0400 Subject: Re: HONING GUIDE FILETIME=[1E6E6E60:01C10618] Hi, AL, I've used the guide by Lee Valley/Veritas and it's very good. Only problem is it's very difficult to keep the blade square to the guide, you have to do it by eye. I prefer the $12 Japanese jobs that grip the blade along its length rather than with a top-mounted screw. If you want to put a micro bevel, just put thin sheet of metal or plastic under the wheel for the last few strokes. That'll raise the blade for a microbevel. Be sure to flatten your stones frequently with on-the-stone guides. I use a coarse diamond hone for getting the first angle and flattening my water stones and a combination 800-2000 grit for polishing. Good luck,Bill At 09:06 PM 7/5/2001 -0600, channer wrote:Alvin;Grizzly, Garrett-Wade, Japan Woodworker, Harbor-Freight, etc,etc,etc.Any good tool store will have several different makesJohn Alvin & Sandy Raby wrote: CAN ANYONE ADVISE WHERE I CAN PURCHASE A HONING GUIDE FOR ABLOCKPLANE BLADE.THANK YOU, AL from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Fri Jul 6 07:41:45 2001 f66CfiZ14220 HAA16217 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:41:40 - Subject: Re: Bob's Book I just received Bob's book yesterday and have only read the firstchapter. Seems I'll have to relegate the Pipe of Fire to the corner of the basement where I keep the orphaned contraptions. Too badit was a lot of fun. After trying a couple kind of dyes and stains on a rod, I settledon a Pantone marker, Color 490-T. Its easy to move the color aroundand even it up with a rag and some alcohol. ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from bhoy551@earthlink.net Fri Jul 6 07:46:11 2001 f66CkAZ14462 Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:46:24 -0400 rodsupstream@exploremaine.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: What do you Know? FILETIME=[AA69E420:01C10619] I'm extremely saddened by this news. I only knew George from the list, but he was extremely helpful to me as a novice offlist. He will be missed. Bill At 08:05 PM 7/5/2001 -0400, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler) passingaway. I for one will miss him on the list and I hope everyone who hadcontact with him will drop his family a line and offer their condolences. Ihad the pleasure of talking to him many times on the phone and I can onlysaythat he was one cool guy.( Moment of silence). I hope you all offer him the same in his memory.Bret from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Jul 6 08:18:53 2001 f66DIpZ15245 f66DIoK19018 Subject: Re: Which Reamers? I would like to see the replies posted on the list, I aminterested in this also.Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Harry Boyd wrote: Friends,I'm attempting a few ferrules for the first time, andwill have to purchase reamers to do the close work. Wouldyou suggest straight fluted reamers or spiral fluted reamers difference? Thanks in advance,Harry --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Jul 6 08:34:44 2001 f66DYhZ16632 Subject: Re: Books and Cane This is a multi-part message in MIME format. AllenI too ,have not read the the book yet, But through thelist I am getting a sense of what the contents are.And like you, I am raising an eyebrow. Not really disputing the work.. =Just wondering. Like you , I wondered about moisture reentry ,and I =don't heat temp after gluing(not needed with the glue I use).I do flame =and I heat set the strips to straighten. I do use a drying box(only =because it is really humid here) so I use it to dry the finish, not =speed the process. But what gets me is we see info on heat treating and =info against heat treating. Both look to be correct, but could it be =that they are both correct. The only difference being thatthe rod performs different. I like you, am wondering why rods are not =breaking all over the place. I know people heat treat. Some, much more =than I do on my rods. So what gives with all this? Once again I do think =there is definitely such a thing as (Over heat treating).Maybe Bob, in his wisdom, noticed that alot of the makers were stepping =the heat treating up and up and up.A blind man could have seen that LOL. You know if some is good than even =more is better, and even morebetter than that.LOL So I agree with you. But I'll go out on a limb and =say some(heat treating) is good, but I think you need minimal to do the =job. When man invented fire he couldn't just make a small one ,it had to =be a big one(hence the ring of fire). I invented the Wind tunnel cyclone =furnace of fire LOL but I thought you all would not be ready for that. = Best RegardsTony Miller AllenI too ,have not read the the = through thelist I am getting a sense of = contents are.And like you, I am raising an = really disputing the work.. Just wondering. Like you , I wondered about = reentry ,and I don't heat temp after gluing(not needed with the = the finish, not speed the process. But what gets me is we see info on = treating and info against heat treating. Both look to be correct, but = thatthe rod performs different. I= treating).Maybe Bob, in his wisdom, = up.A blind man could have seen= morebetter than = a big one(hence the ring of fire). I invented the Wind tunnel cyclone = Best RegardsTony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Fri Jul 6 08:43:43 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f66DhgZ17050 (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Heat treating cane trial This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Adam -- Thanks so much for doing this. It seems consistent with the results inMilward's new book.... Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Heat treating cane trial Everyone, I have a heat treating of cane experiment I have finished. I have sent it thumbs up. I tried to send it to the list as an attachment, but it did notseem to post to many people. If you are interested in receiving a copy Iwill send you one. It also looks like it will be published in the OctoberPowerfibers. Best Regards, Adam Vigil Adam -- Thanks so much for doing this. It seems consistent with the results in Milward's new book.... Barry -----Original Message-----From: Adam Vigil 9:35 Heat treating cane trial I have a heat treating of cane experiment Ihave finished. I have sent it for review to many well known members on the listand they have given it a thumbs up. I tried to send it to the list as an attachment, but it did not seem to post to many people. If you areinterested in receiving a copy I will send you one. It also looks like it will be published in the October Powerfibers. Best Regards, AdamVigil from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Jul 6 08:52:07 2001 f66Dq6Z17520 f66DpxK23145;Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:52:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Flyfisherman Magazines Can't remember the name of the place in Michiganthat does buy old runs. I will be trying tocontact them myself. Have bought from them yearsago. Don't see their ads anymore. I have someback to the 40's that I would like to dispose of.Will try to find the name.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Lee Freeman wrote: Bret, Don't know, but have severalsuggestions. Your local library.Sell 'em on eBayin several year increments.Donate them to localhospitals or nursing homesSell 'em in bunches atswap meets, yard sales, or garage sales. And ifany of these work, let me know. I have somestraight runs of magazines going back to1946! Lee ----- Original Message -----From: Grhghlndr@aol.com rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 8:47 PMSubject: Flyfisherman MagazinesDoes anyone know where I can get ridof my collection of old FFM? I havethem almost complete from thebeginning to about early 1990s.Bret from GRNMTRODS@aol.com Fri Jul 6 08:53:00 2001 f66DqxZ17678 Subject: Bob Nunley-------- Bamboo ferrules Hello Bob, I'm playing with your bamboo ferrules. And ..... I've got a few questions. I've read and reread your article in power fibers. How much do you lap the ferrule onto the butt section ? Do you make the male end about as long as a standard male ferrule? Thats it for now. Thanks a lot ,Jim in Vermont Hello Bob, I'm playing with your bamboo ferrules. And ..... I've got a few questions. I've read and reread your article in power fibers. How much do you lapthe ferrule onto the butt section ? Do you make the male end about as longas a standard male ferrule? Thats it for now. Thanks a lot ,Jim in Vermont from DCURTIS@satx.rr.com Fri Jul 6 08:55:10 2001 f66Dt9Z17961 f66Dt4u3021305 Subject: Re: What do you Know? I'm sorry to here about George. I just moved to San Antonio last year andI'm starting to gather stuff up to start my first rod. I've been readingthe list for about six months and just emailed George, when I saw that helived in San Antonio, the other day to see if we could talk about bamboo. Inever got a reply and now I know why. I wish I would have had the chance tomeet him. My thoughts are with his family. Darrin Curtis In a message dated 7/5/01 7:13:21 PM Central Daylight Time,Grhghlndr@aol.comwrites: passingaway >> He will be missed in two of my major hobbies! darn!mark from tfbinn@mindspring.com Fri Jul 6 09:00:56 2001 f66E0sZ18342 Subject: Re: Flyfisherman Magazines I think it's Highwood books in Traverse City.Winston Binney from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Fri Jul 6 09:08:15 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f66E8EZ18671 (5.5.2653.19) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Books and Cane Allen -- I read the book last night and I think its message on flaming is a bit morecomplicated than the summaries I've seen. My understanding ( from the book--not that I'm an expert rodmaker like you) is that dark flaming does reducethe strength of the darkest fibers, but that those are typically just at thesurface. If the flaming is done in a way that effectively heat- treats theunderlying fibers the net strength of the strip may be adequate. But hepointed out that flaming is relatively uncontrolled and, in some people'shands, could result in weakened dark outer fibers and untempered underlyingfibers, which would not be a good combination. The strength data suggest tome that there is some margin of safety in a well made strip, which isconsistent with the obvious fact that there are many flamed/darkened rodsthat cast well and last a long time. Finally, the book didn't attempt toaddress ideas like the possibility that a combination of brittle but stiffsurface fibers and flexible but stronger underlying fibers could produce adesirable action. As the book says, issues like this, along with majorquestions about basics like glue effects, leave lots of material for futurestudies. In my field (public health) there's a lot of emphasis on having the data, soBob's book is a breath of fresh air to me. But in my field there is alsounending discussion of what the data mean. Bob's findings will increase, notsuppress, the lively discussions we have. But I think it will improve themto the extent we help each other understand what available data mean, andEQUALLY IMPORTANT what we really don't yet know conclusively. There's stillplenty of room for personal preferences and diverse opinions. Just one reader's ideas.... Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Books and Cane Haven't read the book and I should wait but... I read the review in PF and lost interest as soon as I came to the part about flaming, temps and all. It simply goes against my own emperical experience with alot of actual rods. I wonder if there is not an additional element that is missing. I had the intuition about the moisture content reentering and never have bothered with drying boxes or indeed even the passing fashion of retempering the cane after glue up. I have tried to glean what I could from the techniques of the old masters , they built rods day after day for many years, if there was a significant problem it would be readily apparent by now what those errors were. Of course I still use ferrule cement and a pin and like leonard pattern ferrules :) Could it be that I am already a dinosaur? Passing into the mists as onr of the uninformed codgers who simply won't learn? Head in the sand? Geegads now I'll have to add another book to the library.A.J.Thramer_________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 6 09:39:16 2001 f66EdFZ20116 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: HONING GUIDE I use a piece of glass to do the same thing. About twice the length of thewaterstone and about 4" wide (came from the top of an unused 10 galaquarium). I lay the waterstone on the glass and before and duringsharpening I scrub the glass with the waterstone. The waterstone quickly"frosts" the glass and the glass does the same thing as the diamond hone. Inaddition I no longer use the Nag..? stone on the waterstone. I've been usingthis for a couple of years and the waterstone stays perfectly flat. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Be sure to flatten your stones frequently with on-the-stone guides. I use a coarse diamond hone for getting the first angle and flattening my water stones and a combination 800-2000 grit for polishing. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jul 6 09:51:10 2001 f66Ep9Z20650 HAA11342 HAA24291 (5.5.2650.21) "'bob@downandacross.com'" Subject: RE: Bob's Book Ray Gould stains his cane with amonia in his oven like furniture makers turnred oak into the color everybody loves by fuming with ammonia, it reactswith the tannin in the wood. ---------- Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 7:05 PM Subject: Re: Bob's Book M-DI reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers, and I think it is a great book. How does that song go, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, and you don't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob for doing all these and more. SO much for the old ways.One question I have raised by the book is what is the recommended way to stain cane if you heat treat and want a darker appearance? I tried some MinWax stain today, and it seems to be ineffective on light oven bakedcane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote:Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and read BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes? Excuse me, but Bob did that for you. Nowcomeon, surely this book must have raised as many questions with you, as ithaswith me. Anybody have a clue as to what the optimum time/temp mightbe forheat treating/drying? After seeing the data, will any of you ever flameanother rod? Still think you can keep your blanks from adsorbing intoequilibrium, when the strips probably did that as you were planing them,notto mention that if you dried the blank in a drying cabinet, then took it outto dress the ferrule stations, you re-aquified it all over again. Seems thatthis is an effort in futility, unless you are working in a controlledenvironment. And what about the analysis of what makes good cane? Bluebuttcane might be better but is smaller in diameter. Ever try to make a 7 wt.and have the strips flat on the enamel side using the mid- cut?Come on people, open up! M-D from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jul 6 10:02:31 2001 f66F2UZ21161 IAA24695 IAA02795 (5.5.2650.21) "'jojo@ipa.net'" Subject: RE: Bob's Book Bob told us at corbett lake last year that he had come to the conclusion thatGarrisons node spacing was the way to go as each node was then surrounded ---------- Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 9:04 PM Subject: Re: Bob's Book I see that you are a man of refinement and conviction, Jim. ;o)There is so much to glean from this book that I think I discover a new pearlevery time I re-read it. The only thing that bothers me about it is that Ihave more questions than I ever had. I think Bob has cleverly set us up forthe sequel. Only, I don't want to wait another two years.The test to determine the validity of the assertion of less strength in thenode versus the internodal areas would seem to be straight forward. I needto go back and re-read some parts and see if he has covered this in thesamemanner in which I am thinking, or if I'm even in the ballpark with what I'mthinking.Ditto for the exceeding of the elastic limits. I need to re-read it and seeif there is something for me to try and grasp.Anyone else have any thoughts regarding these items, or others? M-D From: "Jim Utzerath" OK Martin, I'll say it. I agree with almost everything Bob has concluded about thematerial science of Tonkin cane; it is consistent with every substantivestudy I've read and everything I've observed. It is more remarkable inthatit represents so many years of Bob's own research that came togetherintodefinitive conclusions. It should give every rodmaker comfort to know he is dealing withmaterialsand methods that will yield a consistently predictable product. In otherwords, the seemingly thousands of variables that we fear influences ourworkare reduced to only the culm selection and the dimensions, assuming wefollow the usual rules elsewhere. But we sort of knew that all along;else,we wouldn't have been faithfully reproducing classic tapers expecting toduplicate their casting characteristics. I'll point out just two relatively minor problems I noted that mightprovokesome discussion: 1. Node strength and modulus does not seem to belessthaninternodal values according to many reports. 2. The computed stressatthemaximum curvature during the haul seems to be close to or to exceedtheelastic limit of the material. Why is the cane not damaged more oftenunderthese normal casting conditions? That said, I think we have a new bible. Jim U From: "Jojo DeLancier" Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and readBobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes from jojo@ipa.net Fri Jul 6 10:13:47 2001 f66FDlZ21722 Subject: Re: Bob's Book Ammonia toning is one of the major no-no's listed in Milward's book. M-D Ray Gould stains his cane with amonia in his oven like furniture makersturn red oak into the color everybody loves by fuming with ammonia, itreacts with the tannin in the wood. ---------- M-DI reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers, and I think it is a greatbook.How does that song go, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spitinto the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, and youdon't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob for doing all these and more.SOmuch for the old ways.One question I have raised by the book is what is the recommended waytostain cane if you heat treat and want a darker appearance? I tried someMinWax stain today, and it seems to be ineffective on light oven bakedcane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote:Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and readBobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes?M-D from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jul 6 10:14:10 2001 f66FE9Z21823 IAA08667 IAA12473 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: Books and Cane CRENluthiers discovered years ago that air drying is far superior to kilndrying. It's like making jello in both a oven and a ice box, either way its jellobut totally different in outcome. when you cook anything you change it forever. Kiln dried wood machines and breaks and bends very very differentthan air dried. I suspect that the old rodmakers to a large extent, due to theamount of cane that they had on hand, air dried their stock before the maderods out of them. One of the first thing I was taught about wood is that ittakes one year of drying for each inch of thickness but will reabsorb a lot ofthe moisture back in 24 for ours out of the kiln. ---------- Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Books and Cane AllenI too ,have not read the the book yet, But through thelist I am getting a sense of what the contents are.And like you, I am raising an eyebrow. Not really disputing the work.. Justwondering. Like you , I wondered about moisture reentry ,and I don't heattemp after gluing(not needed with the glue I use).I do flame and I heat set thestrips to straighten. I do use a drying box(only because it is really humidhere) so I use it to dry the finish, not speed the process. But what gets meis we see info on heat treating and info against heat treating. Both look to becorrect, but could it be that they are both correct. The only difference beingthatthe rod performs different. I like you, am wondering why rods are notbreaking all over the place. I know people heat treat. Some, much more than Ido on my rods. So what gives with all this? Once again I do think there isdefinitely such a thing as (Over heat treating).Maybe Bob, in his wisdom, noticed that alot of the makers were steppingthe heat treating up and up and up.A blind man could have seen that LOL. You know if some is good than evenmore is better, and even morebetter than that.LOL So I agree with you. But I'll go out on a limb and saysome(heat treating) is good, but I think you need minimal to do the job. Whenman invented fire he couldn't just make a small one ,it had to be a bigone(hence the ring of fire). I invented the Wind tunnel cyclone furnace of fireLOL but I thought you all would not be ready for that. I'll bet some one willemail me for the plans. Best RegardsTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from jojo@ipa.net Fri Jul 6 10:17:21 2001 f66FHKZ22184 Subject: Re: Bob's Book I've always thought that, but never had anything to rely upon for adefinitive conclusion. I still don't know that the assertion of nodes beingweaker is valid; see Jim's post below.Thanks Patrick for the contributions. M-D Bob told us at corbett lake last year that he had come to the conclusionthat Garrisons node spacing was the way to go as each node was thensurrounded by 5 strips with no nodes at that station of the rod. ---------- The test to determine the validity of the assertion of less strength inthenode versus the internodal areas would seem to be straight forward. Ineedto go back and re-read some parts and see if he has covered this in thesamemanner in which I am thinking, or if I'm even in the ballpark with whatI'mthinking.Ditto for the exceeding of the elastic limits. I need to re-read it andseeif there is something for me to try and grasp.Anyone else have any thoughts regarding these items, or others? M-D From: "Jim Utzerath" OK Martin, I'll say it. I agree with almost everything Bob has concluded aboutthematerial science of Tonkin cane; it is consistent with everysubstantivestudy I've read and everything I've observed. It is more remarkableinthatit represents so many years of Bob's own research that cametogetherintodefinitive conclusions. I'll point out just two relatively minor problems I noted that mightprovokesome discussion: 1. Node strength and modulus does not seem to belessthaninternodal values according to many reports. 2. The computed stressatthemaximum curvature during the haul seems to be close to or to exceedtheelastic limit of the material. Why is the cane not damaged more oftenunderthese normal casting conditions? That said, I think we have a new bible. Jim U From: "Jojo DeLancier" Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and readBobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jul 6 10:21:58 2001 f66FLvZ22517 IAA18663 IAA20769 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: Books and Cane bob tested all levels of heat treating from very quick times and low temps allthe way up to long times and high temps, and testing in the labs at Californiauniversities revealed that damage and degradation was taking place. ---------- Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Books and Cane AllenI too ,have not read the the book yet, But through thelist I am getting a sense of what the contents are.And like you, I am raising an eyebrow. Not really disputing the work.. Justwondering. Like you , I wondered about moisture reentry ,and I don't heattemp after gluing(not needed with the glue I use).I do flame and I heat set thestrips to straighten. I do use a drying box(only because it is really humidhere) so I use it to dry the finish, not speed the process. But what gets meis we see info on heat treating and info against heat treating. Both look to becorrect, but could it be that they are both correct. The only difference beingthatthe rod performs different. I like you, am wondering why rods are notbreaking all over the place. I know people heat treat. Some, much more than Ido on my rods. So what gives with all this? Once again I do think there isdefinitely such a thing as (Over heat treating).Maybe Bob, in his wisdom, noticed that alot of the makers were steppingthe heat treating up and up and up.A blind man could have seen that LOL. You know if some is good than evenmore is better, and even morebetter than that.LOL So I agree with you. But I'll go out on a limb and saysome(heat treating) is good, but I think you need minimal to do the job. Whenman invented fire he couldn't just make a small one ,it had to be a bigone(hence the ring of fire). I invented the Wind tunnel cyclone furnace of fireLOL but I thought you all would not be ready for that. I'll bet some one willemail me for the plans. Best RegardsTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Jul 6 10:23:39 2001 f66FNcZ22728 f66FNax01170 Subject: Re: Flyfisherman Magazines Yep,That is it.Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Trish & Winston Binney wrote: I think it's Highwood books in Traverse City.Winston Binney from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jul 6 10:26:24 2001 f66FQNZ22981 IAA24396 IAA24144 (5.5.2650.21) "'jojo@ipa.net'" Subject: RE: Bob's Book personally I think that the nodes are stronger. In bending a strip till it breaks,it's the parts between the nodes that break long before the nodes do. ---------- Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 7:54 AM Subject: Re: Bob's Book I've always thought that, but never had anything to rely upon for adefinitive conclusion. I still don't know that the assertion of nodes beingweaker is valid; see Jim's post below.Thanks Patrick for the contributions. M-D From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Bob told us at corbett lake last year that he had come to the conclusionthat Garrisons node spacing was the way to go as each node was thensurrounded by 5 strips with no nodes at that station of the rod. ---------- The test to determine the validity of the assertion of less strength inthenode versus the internodal areas would seem to be straight forward. Ineedto go back and re-read some parts and see if he has covered this inthesamemanner in which I am thinking, or if I'm even in the ballpark with whatI'mthinking.Ditto for the exceeding of the elastic limits. I need to re-read it andseeif there is something for me to try and grasp.Anyone else have any thoughts regarding these items, or others? M-D From: "Jim Utzerath" OK Martin, I'll say it. I agree with almost everything Bob has concluded aboutthematerial science of Tonkin cane; it is consistent with everysubstantivestudy I've read and everything I've observed. It is more remarkableinthatit represents so many years of Bob's own research that cametogetherintodefinitive conclusions. I'll point out just two relatively minor problems I noted that mightprovokesome discussion: 1. Node strength and modulus does not seem to belessthaninternodal values according to many reports. 2. The computedstressatthemaximum curvature during the haul seems to be close to or toexceedtheelastic limit of the material. Why is the cane not damaged moreoftenunderthese normal casting conditions? That said, I think we have a new bible. Jim U From: "Jojo DeLancier" Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered andreadBobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it.Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Fri Jul 6 10:36:01 2001 f66Fa0Z23667 Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:35:56 +0100 rodsupstream@exploremaine.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: What do you Know? Although I never met George I have had several e-mail correspondenceswith him these last two years.The news for me as come as a big shock as the last time we 'spoke' wasonly four weeks ago when he was just going into chemo.....I have lost agood friend.......be at peace George...........Paul Bill Hoy wrote: I'm extremely saddened by this news. I only knew George from the list, buthe was extremely helpful to me as a novice offlist. He will be missed. Bill At 08:05 PM 7/5/2001 -0400, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler)passingaway. I for one will miss him on the list and I hope everyone who hadcontact with him will drop his family a line and offer their condolences. Ihad the pleasure of talking to him many times on the phone and I can onlysaythat he was one cool guy.( Moment of silence). I hope you all offer him the same in his memory.Bret from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Jul 6 10:50:17 2001 f66FoGZ24432 f66FoFx04454 Subject: Re: Flyfisherman Magazines Just found out he is retiring .Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony Spezio wrote: Yep,That is it.Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Trish & Winston Binney wrote: I think it's Highwood books in Traverse City.Winston Binney from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Fri Jul 6 10:51:20 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f66FpJZ24588 (5.5.2653.19) and Collecting Subject: RE: Bob's Book Actually what he said in the book is that its effects are unknown, so he'llstay away from it. He didn't provide any data on its effects. BK -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Bob's Book Ammonia toning is one of the major no-no's listed in Milward's book. M-D Ray Gould stains his cane with amonia in his oven like furniture makersturn red oak into the color everybody loves by fuming with ammonia, itreacts with the tannin in the wood. ---------- M-DI reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers, and I think it is a greatbook.How does that song go, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spitinto the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, and youdon't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob for doing all these and more.SOmuch for the old ways.One question I have raised by the book is what is the recommended waytostain cane if you heat treat and want a darker appearance? I tried someMinWax stain today, and it seems to be ineffective on light oven bakedcane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote:Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and readBobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes?M-D from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Jul 6 11:32:25 2001 f66GWPZ26309 JAA05914; Subject: Re: Books and Cane This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Tony, In the trial I did I came to the conclusion that with the methods I =tested all could make rods. They may have different characteristics but =are fishable rods none the less. Yes to much heat treatment does damage =the cane but then again so does planning, sanding, scraping. While =academically heat can damage cane I suspect that there is a area where =it does not change the cane beyond its intended use for rods. While = What the cane may lose in flaming in regards to strength it may gain in =glue up and in the shape of the rod be it quad, hex and pent. Testing =strips gives us information on strips only and may provide clues in what =we want from a rod. To actually test heat treatment on rods we need =several rods made from the same culm or Identical culms. They need to be =heat treated exactly, have the exact specs., have the same amount of =glue etc. You get the idea. Then we need to bend the hell out of the = I think we have seen enough rods to know a "single strip does not a rod =make". And a fly rod is greater then the sum of its parts. So for those =like Allen Thramer who loves the flamed cane it is with good reason. =Real world experience tells us flaming rods work just fine. I believe it =is because they are still well with the accepted range for what we use =them for. Now flaming cane to use in scaffolding might be another =matter. Best Regards, Adam Vigil Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:34 AMSubject: Re: Books and Cane AllenI too ,have not read the the book yet, But through thelist I am getting a sense of what the contents are.And like you, I am raising an eyebrow. Not really disputing the work.. =Just wondering. Like you , I wondered about moisture reentry ,and I =don't heat temp after gluing(not needed with the glue I use).I do flame =and I heat set the strips to straighten. I do use a drying box(only =because it is really humid here) so I use it to dry the finish, not =speed the process. But what gets me is we see info on heat treating and =info against heat treating. Both look to be correct, but could it be =that they are both correct. The only difference being thatthe rod performs different. I like you, am wondering why rods are not =breaking all over the place. I know people heat treat. Some, much more =than I do on my rods. So what gives with all this? Once again I do think =there is definitely such a thing as (Over heat treating).Maybe Bob, in his wisdom, noticed that alot of the makers were =stepping the heat treating up and up and up.A blind man could have seen that LOL. You know if some is good than =even more is better, and even morebetter than that.LOL So I agree with you. But I'll go out on a limb =and say some(heat treating) is good, but I think you need minimal to do =the job. When man invented fire he couldn't just make a small one ,it =had to be a big one(hence the ring of fire). I invented the Wind tunnel =cyclone furnace of fire LOL but I thought you all would not be ready for = Best RegardsTony Miller Tony, that with the methods I tested all could make rods. They may have = characteristics but are fishable rods none the less. Yes to much heat = does damage the cane but then again so does planning, sanding, = where it does not change the cane beyond its intended use for rods. = What the cane may lose in flaming in = strength it may gain in glue up and in the shape of the rod be it quad, = clues in what we want from a rod. To actually test heat treatment on = need several rods made from the same culm or Identical culms. They need = heat treated exactly, have the exact specs., have the same amount of = You get the idea. Then we need to bend the hell out of the rods and = which eliminate as many variable as possible. I think we have seen enough rods to = strip does not a rod make". And a fly rod is greater then the sum of its = with good reason. Real world experience tells us flaming rods work just = believe it is because they are still well with the accepted range for = matter. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 =6:34 AMSubject: Re: Books and =Cane AllenI too ,have not read the the= But through thelist I am getting a sense of= contents are.And like you, I am raising an= Not really disputing the work.. Just wondering. Like you , I wondered = moisture reentry ,and I don't heat temp after gluing(not needed with = me is we see info on heat treating and info against heat treating. = the rod performs different.I = this? Once again I do think there is definitely such a thing as (Over = treating).Maybe Bob, in his and up.A blind man could have seen= morebetter than = to be a big one(hence the ring of fire). I invented the Wind tunnel = BestRegardsTony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from brianbli@yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 11:36:32 2001 f66GaWZ26571 Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:36:31 PDT Subject: Test Posting __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jul 6 12:04:56 2001 f66H4tZ27609 KAA24756 KAA11255 (5.5.2650.21) "'Adam Vigil'" Subject: RE: Books and Cane a rods strength is that of the sum of the whole, any weakening of any partweakens the whole. Maybe he's right and that if we didn't heat treat till wechanged the color of the cane and/or if we didn't flame, we could build rodsof the action we like only with thinner tapers. Who knows. ---------- Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Re: Books and Cane Tony, In the trial I did I came to the conclusion that with the methods I tested allcould make rods. They may have different characteristics but are fishablerods none the less. Yes to much heat treatment does damage the cane butthen again so does planning, sanding, scraping. While academically heat candamage cane I suspect that there is a area where it does not change thecane beyond its intended use for rods. While testing strips of cane is onething actually testing rods is another. What the cane may lose in flaming in regards to strength it may gain inglue up and in the shape of the rod be it quad, hex and pent. Testing stripsgives us information on strips only and may provide clues in what we want from a rod. To actually test heat treatment on rods we need several rodsmade from the same culm or Identical culms. They need to be heat treatedexactly, have the exact specs., have the same amount of glue etc. You getthe idea. Then we need to bend the hell out of the rods and perform testwhich eliminate as many variable as possible. I think we have seen enough rods to know a "single strip does not a rodmake". And a fly rod is greater then the sum of its parts. So for those likeAllen Thramer who loves the flamed cane it is with good reason. Real worldexperience tells us flaming rods work just fine. I believe it is because theyare still well with the accepted range for what we use them for. Now flamingcane to use in scaffolding might be another matter. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Miller Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:34 AMSubject: Re: Books and Cane AllenI too ,have not read the the book yet, But through thelist I am getting a sense of what the contents are.And like you, I am raising an eyebrow. Not really disputing the work..Just wondering. Like you , I wondered about moisture reentry ,and I don'theat temp after gluing(not needed with the glue I use).I do flame and I heatset the strips to straighten. I do use a drying box(only because it is reallyhumid here) so I use it to dry the finish, not speed the process. But whatgets me is we see info on heat treating and info against heat treating. Bothlook to be correct, but could it be that they are both correct. The onlydifference being thatthe rod performs different. I like you, am wondering why rods are notbreaking all over the place. I know people heat treat. Some, much more than Ido on my rods. So what gives with all this? Once again I do think there isdefinitely such a thing as (Over heat treating).Maybe Bob, in his wisdom, noticed that alot of the makers werestepping the heat treating up and up and up.A blind man could have seen that LOL. You know if some is good thaneven more is better, and even morebetter than that.LOL So I agree with you. But I'll go out on a limb andsay some(heat treating) is good, but I think you need minimal to do the job.When man invented fire he couldn't just make a small one ,it had to be a bigone(hence the ring of fire). I invented the Wind tunnel cyclone furnace of fireLOL but I thought you all would not be ready for that. I'll bet some one willemail me for the plans. Best RegardsTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 12:53:41 2001 f66HreZ29223 06 Jul 2001 10:53:36 PDT Subject: 6 weight Rods Recently started redoing a project rod that I thoughtwas a 4/5 wt. but when I got to the point I could testcast it, it takes a WF6 better. To any of the guysthat build for customers, do you ever get any calls lightweight 6 (considering its a 3-piece) thatbalances with a Pflueger and was thinking of buildinga couple of two-piece copies but not sure of thereception for a 6-weight, even such a light andversatile one. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Jul 6 14:32:39 2001 f66JWcZ01956 Subject: Jerry Madigan Grayrock Pics Friends,Just took a look at Jerry Madigan's pictures fromGrayrock on a CD. Thank you Jerry for sending them!! Now Iregret even more that I wasn't able to attend. Maybe nextyear, Harry --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from bob@downandacross.com Fri Jul 6 14:50:21 2001 f66JoKZ02827 Jul 2001 15:50:34 -0400 Subject: Beveller for sale --=====================_90289122==_.ALT Hi friends:I have a Bellinger Roughing and Tapering Beveller that I would like to sell. It has 60 and 90 degree cutters with little use on them. The whole unit is only 2-3 months old. It is almost new. New cost is $1900, and Russ at GW says it should command about $1675 in its current state of newness.I have only run about 5 rods worth of strips through it, mostly with the 90* cutters.I would be glad to pay the shipping of both the mill and the tapering forms. Instructions included, of course.It is a great machine, but I am doing so limited a run of rods, it is not getting the good use it deserves. Since I am not selling this commercially so to speak and since many guys out there could use good tools, I hope this is okay. I would be willing to take a check or Pay Pal.Thanks, Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com716.836.8297-- =====================_90289122==_.ALT Hi friends:I have a Bellinger Roughing and Tapering Beveller that I would like tosell. It has 60 and 90 degree cutters with little use on them. The wholeunit is only 2-3 months old. It is almost new. New cost is $1900, andRuss at GW says it should command about $1675 in its current state of mostly with the 90* cutters.I would be glad to pay the shipping of both the mill and the taperingforms. Instructions included, of course.It is a great machine, but I am doing so limited a run of rods, it is notgetting the good use it deserves. Since I am not selling thiscommercially so to speak and since many guys out there could use goodtools, I hope this is okay. I would be willing to take a check or PayPal.Thanks, Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com716.836.8297 --=====================_90289122==_.ALT-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Jul 6 16:15:15 2001 f66LFEZ06112 Subject: Re: Flyfisherman Magazines rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I tried them in Traverse City and they told me they were not buyingmagazines anymore.Bret I tried them in Traverse City and they told me they were not buyingmagazines anymore.Bret from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Jul 6 16:32:32 2001 f66LWVZ06675 Subject: Marble slabs rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I came across two slabs of marble today on a jobsite and I brought themhome. Anyone near by my area interested in one? I came across two slabs of marble today on a jobsite and I broughtthem home. from ChristopherO@epicimaging.com Fri Jul 6 16:59:12 2001 f66LxBZ07396 rodmakers Subject: RE: 6 weight Rods my favorite rod, rod number two, is a 7'6" six weight. it's the PHY marthamarie, medium fast semi-parabolic. i've caught everything from blue gillsto steelhead on it, and it's still going fine after five years of very hardfishing. food for thought.chris. -----Original Message----- Subject: 6 weight Rods Recently started redoing a project rod that I thoughtwas a 4/5 wt. but when I got to the point I could testcast it, it takes a WF6 better. To any of the guysthat build for customers, do you ever get any calls lightweight 6 (considering its a 3-piece) thatbalances with a Pflueger and was thinking of buildinga couple of two-piece copies but not sure of thereception for a 6-weight, even such a light andversatile one. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Jul 6 17:10:29 2001 f66MATZ08186 sender ) Subject: Re: Bob's Book none wrote: I don't know, ammonia toning seemed to work just fine for Granger andHeddon.The first thing I learned when I started doing this madness 15 years ago isthatyou can't believe everything you read in print. Especially pertaining torodmaking. Marty Jojo DeLancier wrote: Ammonia toning is one of the major no-no's listed in Milward's book. M-D From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Ray Gould stains his cane with amonia in his oven like furniture makersturn red oak into the color everybody loves by fuming with ammonia, itreacts with the tannin in the wood. ---------- M-DI reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers, and I think it is a greatbook.How does that song go, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don'tspitinto the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, andyoudon't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob for doing all these andmore.SOmuch for the old ways.One question I have raised by the book is what is the recommendedway tostain cane if you heat treat and want a darker appearance? I triedsomeMinWax stain today, and it seems to be ineffective on light ovenbakedcane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote:Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered andread BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it.Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes?M-D from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 17:30:56 2001 f66MUtZ08708 Fri, 06 Jul 2001 15:30:55 PDT Subject: Re: 6 weight Rods Sorry, thought it was assumed we were talking bamboohere. Yes, the rod was originally an 8-footer. Wasjust testing an assumption I've been living under,that 6wt. cane rods just weren't in any demand,regardless of length. Bill W. --- Davesrods wrote:I take it your are talking bamboo?? The demand is and above make good 6wt rods.. Thanks Dave----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Walters" Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 12:53 PMSubject: 6 weight Rods Recently started redoing a project rod that Ithoughtwas a 4/5 wt. but when I got to the point I couldtestcast it, it takes a WF6 better. To any of the guysthat build for customers, do you ever get anycalls lightweight 6 (considering its a 3-piece) thatbalances with a Pflueger and was thinking ofbuildinga couple of two-piece copies but not sure of thereception for a 6-weight, even such a light andversatile one. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 17:33:30 2001 f66MXTZ08886 Fri, 06 Jul 2001 15:33:28 PDT Subject: Re: Jerry Madigan Grayrock Pics I'll second that. Jerry sent me a copy of the picturesas well and looks like it was definitely a 'rocking'(pun intended) good time. Thanks a bunch Jerry for thepics. Bill Walters--- Harry Boyd wrote:Friends,Just took a look at Jerry Madigan's picturesfromGrayrock on a CD. Thank you Jerry for sendingthem!! Now Iregret even more that I wasn't able to attend. Maybe nextyear, Harry --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from caneman@clnk.com Fri Jul 6 18:02:27 2001 f66N2QZ09532 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Jerry Madigan Grayrock Pics Uh, Since my good friend Jerry is sending these all over the place... let'smake it clear that I was NOT checking out "John Z's Goods"... I was merelycomparing our beer bellies!Seriously, it was a great Gathering, and wish all of you couuld havemade it! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Jerry Madigan Grayrock Pics I'll second that. Jerry sent me a copy of the picturesas well and looks like it was definitely a 'rocking'(pun intended) good time. Thanks a bunch Jerry for thepics. Bill Walters--- Harry Boyd wrote:Friends,Just took a look at Jerry Madigan's picturesfromGrayrock on a CD. Thank you Jerry for sendingthem!! Now Iregret even more that I wasn't able to attend.Maybe nextyear, Harry --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Jul 6 18:16:15 2001 f66NGEZ09833 Subject: Re: Gray rock pics This is a multi-part message in MIME format. How do you get this CD?Can you only get it from Jerry?Can anyone email a copy so I can down load it or is it too long.Tony Miller How do you get thisCD?Can you only get it from =Jerry? = or is it too long.TonyMiller from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 18:25:53 2001 f66NPpZ10184 Fri, 06 Jul 2001 16:25:51 PDT Subject: Re: Bob Milward's Book A couple of years ago I pitched an idea for atechnical article on classic makers rods and theiractions to a fellow cane addict, his reply was to besure that I wasn't taking away any of the magic.With everything I've seen so far about Bob's book, andits dispelling of certain myths through analysis,seems that cane should not be able to do what we'reasking of it. As good a definition of magic as I canthink of. Bill W. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Fri Jul 6 18:33:53 2001 f66NXrZ10484 Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:33:08 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: nodeless question While picking up a new center gauge today I swung around to the glue isle(it's right next to the metal lathes/milling machines, AHHHH!) to pick up anew bottle of Titebond PU I spotted Titebond liquid Hide glue in a bottle, saysit is not for exterior use (no surprise). Not sure if it is a new product Shawn "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: all of the old antique furniture is/was glued with hide glue. The glue isextremely strong, 300 lbs. per square inch to pull apart and can be madewater resistant. It's not that difficult to work with and it is the onlyreversible, one doesn't have to plane down to new wood to reglue, that existstoday.---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 2:58 PM Subject: RE: nodeless question Hide glue (the real stuff) is also usually available from woodworkingsupplyplaces. It is frequently used in restoration work. As I've alwaysunderstood it, hide glue had just a few disadvantages over modern glues.First was that it needed to be heated, this was inconvenient and a firehazard. Second it was not as strong as one would like for building thingslike chairs. Third, it was subject to problems with heat and moisture. Ofthese, I'd say only the last is a real disadvantage for rodmakers. Thefirst, inconvenience, is not really a disadvantage when compared to theinconveniences we will put up with with our high-tech epoxies (difficultmixing, glue failures from improper mixing, volatile fumes, short shelflife). And the second (strength), I'm not sure that rods face the sameKIND> > of stresses as furniture, and I'd be willing to bet that those antiquerodsthat delaminated, the delamination had a lot more to do with heat (beingleft in cars) than they did with spontaneous or stress-related gluefailure. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:32 PM Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: nodeless question Bill and other's interested. You can still buy true hide glue at LuthierSupply Houses. Interntional Lutheirs Supply of Tulsa keeps it, as doesInternational Violin, Luthiers Merchantile and about any other. I stillhave some in the cabinet, but don't know what I'll ever use it for now! Later,Bob Patrick, can't one still buy the good, old stuff in powder (or pulverized)form some of the specialty woodworker catalogues like Constantine? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Cc: "Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 1:50 PMSubject: RE: nodeless question very very very strong joint and has to be soaked in water for alooooooooong time before it fails. Stradavarie violins have stood upforhundreds of years in all sorts of humidities and are still together. Itcanbe made water resistant and takes about 300 lbs. per square inch topullapart. The liquid is lousy but the old stuff is great. Used it every dayfor8 years when I was a luthier. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 4:56 AM Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: nodeless question OOOOPS! Wrong answer, wrong question. That was meant as an answer toTerryKirkpatrick. The reply that goes with YOUR note is this one - why does anyoneusehide glue these days? Not that I think they shouldn't; it's just that Iwould have thought that they were a bit passe. Peter ----- Original Message -----From: Bamboo Joe Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:44 AMSubject: Re: nodeless question When I visited Chris at his shop on Memorial Day 2000, he wasusingTitebond II for demo rods, and Hide Glue for his for sale rods. I personally am using Titebond II for my scarf joints. I did howeverbuy some Liquid Hide Glue and used it to glue three strips up. Didnoticethat the liquid hide glue takes lot longer time to setup than theTitebondII. Someone was telling me that the liquid hide glue is not as good astheground hide glue. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in onehandand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message -----From: setissma Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:17 PMSubject: nodeless question At Greyrock, Chris Bogart did a wonderful seminar about nodelessconstruction. However, in looking over my notes, I forgot to write downwhether he glued splines with Titebond, or Titebond II. Also, would itmatter? I would welcome some ideas about personal experiences withtheseproducts for nodeless construction. Chris, maybe you are out there and could clarify this. Jeff Schaeffer from DNHayashida@aol.com Fri Jul 6 18:53:24 2001 f66NrOZ10975 Subject: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) Funny we should be talking about ammonia toning. I just tried a series of tests to ammonia tone a few rods. First I tried putting a blank rod in a tube and taped a bottle of household ammonia to one end, sealing the other end. That worked, but it took about 10 days to get any appreciable darkening. Then I tried heating the bottle with a heat gun (use a glass bottle), and that darkened the rod in a couple hours, and when I took the rod out of the tube I noticed the ammonia had condensed on the rod, making it wet with ammonia. Figuring I had already done any damage that could be done, I poured straight ammonia in the tube and let it soak overnight. That turned the rod a very dark even brown. After 3 days in my drying cabinet I can't tell it apart from any other rod I made as far as the action is concerned. I mean it doesn't take a set or is any softer or slower that I can tell, and it is a nice even dark brown, just like the Heddons I was trying to imitate. One word of caution though - the ammonia fumes from your drying cabinet are pretty intense.Darryl In a message dated 7/6/01 3:11:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,horsesho@ptd.net writes:none wrote: I don't know, ammonia toning seemed to work just fine for Granger and Heddon.The first thing I learned when I started doing this madness 15 years ago is thatyou can't believe everything you read in print. Especially pertaining torodmaking. Marty Jojo DeLancier wrote: Ammonia toning is one of the major no-no's listed in Milward's book. M-D From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Ray Gould stains his cane with amonia in his oven like furniture makersturn red oak into the color everybody loves by fuming with ammonia, itreacts with the tannin in the wood. ---------- M-DI reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers, and I think it is a greatbook.How does that song go, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, youdon't spitinto the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, and youdon't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob for doing all these and more.SOmuch for the old ways.One question I have raised by the book is what is the recommended way tostain cane if you heat treat and want a darker appearance? I tried someMinWax stain today, and it seems to be ineffective on light oven bakedcane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote:Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered and read BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes?M-D Funny we should be talking about ammonia toning. I just tried a series of tests to ammonia tone a few rods. First I tried putting a blank rod in a tube and taped a bottle of household ammonia to one end, sealing the other end. That worked, but it tookabout 10 days to get any appreciable darkening. Then I tried heating the bottlewith a heat gun (use a glass bottle), and that darkened the rod in a couplehours, and when I took the rod out of the tube I noticed the ammonia hadcondensed on the rod, making it wet with ammonia. Figuring I had already done any damage that could be done, I poured straight ammonia in the tube andlet it soak overnight. That turned the rod a very dark even brown. After 3days in my drying cabinet I can't tell it apart from any other rod I made as faras the action is concerned. I mean it doesn't take a set or is any softer or slower that I can tell, and it is a nice even dark brown, just like the Heddons I was trying to imitate. One word of caution though - theammonia fumes from your drying cabinet are pretty intense.Darryl In a message dated 7/6/01 3:11:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,horsesho@ptd.net writes:none wrote: and Heddon. years ago is that to book. furniture makers ammonia, it is a great Superman's cape, you don't spit old Lone Ranger, and you all these and more. recommended way to appearance? I tried some on light oven baked wrote: who've ordered and read Bob about it. Whatsamatta' from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Jul 6 18:57:25 2001 f66NvOZ11222 Subject: Books and cane This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I think that there is one issue in heat treating and that iswhat kind of oven you use. Possibly the oven evens out the heat applied =to the rod from the flaming process( just a theory) Therefore there is = quality oven it makes the cane heat more evenly thus reducingover heated spots. I know Bret from the list and his ovens are the =nicest I've seen yet. No commercial interest bla bla bla.Tony Miller I think that there is one issue in heat = and that iswhat kind of oven you use. Possibly the= if you have a quality oven it makes the cane heatmore = thus reducingover heated spots. I know Bret fromthe = bla bla.Tony Miller from richjez@enteract.com Fri Jul 6 20:00:23 2001 f6710NZ11975 Subject: Re: Gray rock pics --=====================_396196==_.ALT Tony,Give me your address and I'll mail you the CD. Jerry asked us to copy and forward if possible. I'll do my part.Rich Jezioro At 06:13 PM 7/6/01, Tony Miller wrote:How do you get this CD?Can you only get it from Jerry?Can anyone email a copy so I can down load it or is it too long.Tony Miller *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro@/||/____/||_________________________________________||/\))):> > ))):> --=====================_396196==_.ALT Tony,Give me your address and I'll mail you the CD. Jerry asked us to copy andforward if possible. I'll do my part.Rich Jezioro At 06:13 PM 7/6/01, Tony Miller wrote:How do you get this CD?Can you only get it from Jerry?Can anyone email a copy so I can down load it or is it too long.Tony Miller *_____________ ___________________) @/ ||/ ____/||_________________________________________ p;/\ ; / bsp; --=====================_396196==_.ALT-- from bob@downandacross.com Fri Jul 6 20:14:36 2001 f671EYZ12253 Subject: Re: Gray rock pics I would be happy to forward mine too, if anyone else needs the copy Jerry Bob At 07:58 PM 7/6/2001 -0500, Rich Jezioro wrote:Tony,Give me your address and I'll mail you the CD. Jerry asked us to copy and forward if possible. I'll do my part.Rich Jezioro from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Jul 6 20:22:27 2001 f671MQZ12503 f671MOx00619;Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:22:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) My experience with ammonia toning was not toogood.I made a blank for a friend and did some toningwith Ammonium carbonate that darkened it some.When I saw the finished rod it had some real baddark glue lines. There were no glue lines when heleft with the blank.He told me he darkened it more by doing just whatyou said you did with ammonia and sunlight. Theonly thing that I can figure was the ammonia fumesreacted with the Elmer's Carpenter Glue I wasusing at that time. It had no effect on the rod now. He did another that I glued with Epon and nolines on that one. The ammonia may have someeffect on some glues.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: Funny we should be talking about ammonia toning.I just tried a series oftests to ammonia tone a few rods. First I tried putting a blank rod in a tube andtaped a bottle of householdammonia to one end, sealing the other end. Thatworked, but it took about 10days to get any appreciable darkening. Then Itried heating the bottle with aheat gun (use a glass bottle), and that darkenedthe rod in a couple hours,and when I took the rod out of the tube Inoticed the ammonia had condensedon the rod, making it wet with ammonia. FiguringI had already done anydamage that could be done, I poured straightammonia in the tube and let itsoak overnight. That turned the rod a very darkeven brown. After 3 days inmy drying cabinet I can't tell it apart from anyother rod I made as far asthe action is concerned. I mean it doesn't takea set or is any softer orslower that I can tell, and it is a nice evendark brown, just like theHeddons I was trying to imitate. One word ofcaution though - the ammoniafumes from your drying cabinet are prettyintense.Darryl In a message dated 7/6/01 3:11:08 PM PacificDaylight Time, horsesho@ptd.netwrites: none wrote: I don't know, ammonia toning seemed to workjust fine for Granger andHeddon.The first thing I learned when I starteddoing this madness 15 years agois thatyou can't believe everything you read inprint. Especially pertaining torodmaking. Marty Jojo DeLancier wrote: Ammonia toning is one of the major no-no'slisted in Milward's book. M-D From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Ray Gould stains his cane with amonia inhis oven like furnituremakersturn red oak into the color everybodyloves by fuming with ammonia, itreacts with the tannin in the wood. ---------- From: Downandacross M-DI reviewed it in the latest PowerFibers, and I think it is a greatbook.How does that song go, "You don't tugon Superman's cape, you don'tspitinto the wind, you don't pull themask off the old Lone Ranger,and youdon't mess around with Jim." Long liveBob for doing all these andmore.SOmuch for the old ways.One question I have raised by the bookis what is the recommendedway tostain cane if you heat treat and wanta darker appearance? I triedsomeMinWax stain today, and it seems to beineffective on light ovenbakedcane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, JojoDeLancier wrote:Okay, I know there have been severalpeople who've ordered andread BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody istalking about it.Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes?M- D from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Jul 6 20:25:09 2001 f671P8Z12705 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: 6 weight Rods Bill,I have 6 weight rods in many lengths (8'-10'). They are excellent for large streams and/or large flies. Fishing streamers, you would really want a medium action 6wt.Several older writers felt that an 8'6" 6wt was the best all-around rod Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Bill Walters wrote: Recently started redoing a project rod that I thoughtwas a 4/5 wt. but when I got to the point I could testcast it, it takes a WF6 better. To any of the guysthat build for customers, do you ever get any calls lightweight 6 (considering its a 3-piece) thatbalances with a Pflueger and was thinking of buildinga couple of two-piece copies but not sure of thereception for a 6-weight, even such a light andversatile one. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from channer@frontier.net Fri Jul 6 21:00:37 2001 f6720aZ13134 Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) Darryl;Where did you get the straight ammonia? I tried household ammonia, all Igot after 3 days in the hot Colorado summer sun was a sickly yellow.John from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 6 21:02:11 2001 f6722BZ13298 ;Sat, 7 Jul 2001 02:02:05 +0000 , Subject: Re: Gray rock pics I also have a copy that I would be glad to forward. Jack from caneman@clnk.com Fri Jul 6 21:25:03 2001 f672P2Z13706 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) John,Just a little warning... you won't find straight ammonia and if you doit will promptly kill you. Most household ammonia is very weak, most aremuch less than 3% ammonia. What I used when I tried it was 6% ammonia...talked a friend in paper mill into bringing me a gallon... let me tell you,at 6%, if you spill even so much as a half a cup of it in the shop, it willtake your breath away and leave you trying to find your way out of the roomwith tear filled eyes.Don't use a particular brand called "Parson's". My opinion, it is oneof the weakest, so far as ammonia content and takes forever to ammoniatonea rod. Go to an industrial cleaning supply house. They MAY have a strongermix than the local grocery store does. Best bet is to hit a chemical supplyhouse or industrial supply that deals in chemicals. Try something on theorder of 5 or 6% ammonia, but be very careful with this stuff. It will tonea rod in a very short amount of time, BUT... IT IS DANGEROUS. The ammoniawe used to use in our process when I worked for Owens Corning wasn't muchstronger than this. A spill of less than 20 gallons in a 90,000 square footfacility caused nausea, severe eye irration on those in one end of theplant, and the fumes were so strong, the line was shut down and the plantevacuated. Later,Bob----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) Darryl;Where did you get the straight ammonia? I tried household ammonia, all Igot after 3 days in the hot Colorado summer sun was a sickly yellow.John from eamlee@email.msn.com Fri Jul 6 21:26:53 2001 f672QqZ13900 Fri, 6 Jul 2001 19:26:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) FILETIME=[478940D0:01C1068C] These are my thoughts, although I have not goten around to it yet. Ilive in Syarcuse and Stickley Furniture is about 3 miles from me. Those ofyou who are familiar with their history will know that they are famous fortheir arts and crafts-mission style furniture. Back in the day when throwingfumes into the air was an afterthought, they would "fume" the furniture withammonia under large tents. It does wonders on quarter sawn white oak andanyother sort of wood with appreciable amounts of tanins in it.They were not, however, using the stuff from underneath the kitchensink. They used the nasty stuff, 25-30 %. You can get this anywhere theysell blueprint/drafting supplies. (They use it in the blueprint machines)Let me take the time to say this now, THIS IS DANGEROUS!!!!! Norm Abrahmdoesn't even mess with it! The fumes will knock you on your a--! Your eyeswill bleed and and your lungs will implode. Well, maybe not that serious,but close. Don't get it on your skin either.Anyhow, I was wondering what would happen if you roughed out strips andfumed them BEFORE you heat treat. Then procede as you normally would. Thefuming process would take no time at all with the strong ammonia, minutestomaybe a couple of hours. You would cook out any moisture in the heattreating, and, God willing weather permitting, you'd wind up with a prettysharp looking stick ol' Gustav Stickley the 3rd would be proud of. Maybe Ishould give it a shot seeing as how everyone seems to be in the mood forexperimentation and I have agallon of this stuff sitting in the garage rightnow..Here is a link to an article on fuming.http://www.taunton.com/fw/features/techniques/fuming/1.htmHope this helps kids. Eamon Lee from DNHayashida@aol.com Fri Jul 6 21:31:43 2001 f672VgZ14125 Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) I used household ammonia. Like I said, it took 10 days using the fumemethod. Pouring the ammonia in the tube with the blank submerged in it overnight is what did the dark brown color.Darryl In a message dated 7/6/01 7:01:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, channer@frontier.net writes:Darryl;Where did you get the straight ammonia? I tried household ammonia, all Igot after 3 days in the hot Colorado summer sun was a sickly yellow.John I used household ammonia. Like I said, it took 10 days using the fumemethod. Pouring the ammonia in the tube with the blank submerged in itovernight is what did the dark brown color.Darryl In a message dated 7/6/01 7:01:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, channer@frontier.net writes:Darryl;Where did you get the straight ammonia? I tried household ammonia, allIgot after 3 days in the hot Colorado summer sun was a sickly yellow.John from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Fri Jul 6 21:32:28 2001 f672WRZ14239 Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) I found some strong ammonia at a Blueprint supply house. I don't know the actual percent but this stuff is STRONG Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one hand and a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) Darryl;Where did you get the straight ammonia? I tried household ammonia, all Igot after 3 days in the hot Colorado summer sun was a sickly yellow.John from rextutor@about.com Fri Jul 6 21:38:51 2001 f672cpZ14520 (NPlex 5.5.029) bh887@lafn.org, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Flyfisherman Magazines Have you considered selling your magazineson eBay ?Sign up fora free About Email account at http://About.com from Troutgetter@aol.com Fri Jul 6 21:41:44 2001 f672fhZ14708 Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) In a message dated 7/6/2001 7:27:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eamlee@email.msn.com writes: Anyhow, I was wondering what would happen if you roughed out stripsandfumed them BEFORE you heat treat. Then procede as you normally would.Thefuming process would take no time at all with the strong ammonia, minutestomaybe a couple of hours. You would cook out any moisture in the heattreating, and, God willing weather permitting, you'd wind up with a pretty Hi All,It's been a little while since I re-read Wayne's first book, but as I remember Wayne placed chunks of ammonia (carbamate maybe?) in his ovenwhile tempering. I seem to remember something about ... "doing this outside".I've never tried the ammonia trick, but it sounds like fun.Best to all,Mike Shay In a message dated7/6/2001 7:27:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eamlee@email.msn.com writes: roughed out strips andfumed them BEFORE you heat treat. Then procede as you normallywould. Thefuming process would take no time at all with the strong ammonia,minutes tomaybe a couple of hours. You would cook out any moisture in the heattreating, and, God willing weather permitting, you'd wind up with aprettysharp looking stick ol' Gustav Stickley the 3rd would be proud of. Hi All,It's been a little while since I re-read Wayne's first book, but as I remember Wayne placed chunks of ammonia (carbamate maybe?) in hisoven while tempering. I seem to remember something about ... "doing this outside".I've never tried the ammonia trick, but it sounds like fun.Best to all,Mike Shay from bob@downandacross.com Fri Jul 6 21:43:31 2001 f672hHZ14892 Jul 2001 22:41:44 -0400 Subject: Block planes too. --=====================_115004485==_.ALT Thanks for the fuming article, I found another one to be interesting...http://www.taunton.com/fw/features/tools/blockplanes/1.htm Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com716.836.8297-- =====================_115004485==_.ALT Thanks for the fuming article, I found another one to beinteresting...http://www.taunton.com/fw/features/tools/blockplanes/1.htm Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com716.836.8297 --=====================_115004485==_.ALT-- from jojo@ipa.net Fri Jul 6 21:45:19 2001 f672jIZ15073 Subject: Re: Bob's Book Ever notice how brittle the cane is on one of those, particularly in theferrule area, compared to unadulterated cane? Of course, I don't think theyever expected to have their rods out there 50 yr.. after the fact, either.It seems to me that all of this is a matter of degrees. Maybe something is"bad" from a scientific standpoint, but is it really so "bad" that rodscan't continue to be made a certain way? Perhaps these rods won't beoptimum, but they will catch fish, and provide their owners with years ofuse, nonetheless. M-D I don't know, ammonia toning seemed to work just fine for Granger andHeddon.The first thing I learned when I started doing this madness 15 years agois thatyou can't believe everything you read in print. Especially pertaining torodmaking. Marty Jojo DeLancier wrote: Ammonia toning is one of the major no-no's listed in Milward's book. M-D From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Ray Gould stains his cane with amonia in his oven like furnituremakersturn red oak into the color everybody loves by fuming with ammonia, itreacts with the tannin in the wood. ---------- M-DI reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers, and I think it is a greatbook.How does that song go, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don'tspitinto the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, andyoudon't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob for doing all these andmore.SOmuch for the old ways.One question I have raised by the book is what is the recommendedway tostain cane if you heat treat and want a darker appearance? I triedsomeMinWax stain today, and it seems to be ineffective on light ovenbakedcane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote:Okay, I know there have been several people who've ordered andreadBobMilward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it.Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes?M-D from jojo@ipa.net Fri Jul 6 22:10:16 2001 f673AFZ15547 Subject: Router-type Milling Machine For Sale Ladies and Gents, Should any be interested, I have for sale a router-type milling machine thatis a cross between a Medved style and a Milward style. If you areinterested, please contact me Off List. M-D from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Jul 6 22:15:54 2001 f673FrZ15770 Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) I had an experience with some ammonia used for mirror resilvering when Iwas a kid. A guy who did this thought it was funny to accidentally pass the stuff under your nose when you were doing something where you werebreathing hard, such as lifting something to watch you have your breath taken away. I actually burned the nasal passages in my nose and upper bronchial passagesas well when he pulled this on me,(the asshole). I had to go to a Med Point facility for treatment. Guys if you get some of this be VERY careful with it as it is POTENT.Bret I had an experience with some ammonia used for mirror resilveringwhen I was pass the stuff under your nose when you were doing something where you werebreathing hard, such as lifting something to watch you have your breath taken actually burned the nasal passages in my nose and upper bronchialpassages as well when he pulled this on me,(the asshole). I had to go to a Med Point careful with it as it is POTENT.Bret from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Jul 6 22:52:39 2001 f673qcZ16229 UAA08239 Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Everybody, Remember Ammonia can cause some deadly gas. It should never be introduce=to other chemicals. I do not know if heating it in an oven is safe. =Ammonia gas can decompose at high temperatures forming very flammable=hydrogen and toxic nitrogen dioxide. I do not think the amount being =used is an issue in rod making but just be aware and be cautious. Best Regards, Adam Vigil Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 7:41 PMSubject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) Anyhow, I was wondering what would happen if you roughed out = fumed them BEFORE you heat treat. Then procede as you normally = fuming process would take no time at all with the strong ammonia, = maybe a couple of hours. You would cook out any moisture in the heat = treating, and, God willing weather permitting, you'd wind up with a = remember Wayne placed chunks of ammonia (carbamate maybe?) in hisoven = tempering. I seem to remember something about ... "doing this = Everybody, Remember Ammonia can cause somedeadly = should never be introduce to other chemicals. I do not know if heating = oven is safe. Ammonia gas can decompose at high temperatures forming = flammable hydrogen and toxic nitrogen dioxide. I do not think the amount = used is an issue in rod making but just be aware and be =cautious. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Troutgetter@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 =7:41 PMSubject: Re: Ammonia Toning = Book)In a = 7/6/2001 7:27:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eamlee@email.msn.com would = if you roughed out strips and fumed them BEFORE you heat treat. = procede as you normally would. The fuming process would take no = all with the strong ammonia, minutes to maybe a couple of hours. = would cook out any moisture in the heat treating, and, God = weather permitting, you'd wind up with a pretty sharp looking = Gustav Stickley the 3rd would be proud of. Hi = It's been a little while since I re-read Wayne's first book, but = remember Wayne placed chunks of ammonia (carbamate maybe?) inhis = while tempering. I seem to remember something about ... "doing = outside". I've never tried the ammonia trick, but it sounds like = Best to all, Mike Shay = from caneman@clnk.com Fri Jul 6 23:10:50 2001 f674AoZ16529 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:38:04 -0500 Subject: Sanding Block List,First... NO FINANCIAL INTEREST WHATSOEVER, but... When I was atGrayrock, I got one of Bret's Sanding Blocks that a few of you got a fewweeks back. I had a chance to use it for the first time today and I lovedit. Very simple, easy to load with paper, fits the hand very well and issmall enough that you can see what you're doing and not "oversand" an area.I never did care much for the rubber sanding blocks and had always boughtcheap wooden blocks from Wal mart, but they were really too big and nomatter which way you turned them, they obscured your view of what youweresanding on... these do not. I don't know if Bret is going to make any moreof these, but if he does, you might consider talking to him about gettingone.Okie Dokie... off to pack my saddlebags for the Hairy Leg to Memphistomorrow... for those of you that aren't familiar with my biker lifestyle,"Hairy Leg" is what we call a road trip on the Motorcycles that is MENONLY... and Nope, we won't be going to the Opera or Ballet while we'rethere!!! *S* See you all in a couple of days! Bob from horsesho@ptd.net Sat Jul 7 06:38:53 2001 f67BcrZ19867 sender ) Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) none wrote: The liquid ammonia you want to use is the stuff used for making blueprints.It is available at a printer or printing supply. Be carefull , it is muchstronger than household ammonia. Marty channer wrote: Darryl;Where did you get the straight ammonia? I tried household ammonia, all Igot after 3 days in the hot Colorado summer sun was a sickly yellow.John from Dennishigham@cs.com Sat Jul 7 08:45:15 2001 f67DjFZ20767 Subject: Re: nodeless question Shawn,re. Titebond hide glue.It's not new. I glued up a rod with it 4 or 5 years ago. It worked great....Tacked up so fast I almost didn't get it thru the binder . When heating it to straighten I heard a sound like a tiny little zipper....all 6 strips delminated. Don't use the bottle stuff if you're going to use hide stick with the granules and a hot pot. Dennis from gjm80301@yahoo.com Sat Jul 7 10:41:42 2001 f67FffZ22202 Jul 2001 08:41:41 PDT Subject: Fwd: Re: 6 weight Rods As usual, Reed has some good wisdom on this subject. Since switching to bamboo, I have found myself moving up in lineweight and still having a superior presentation. A six-weight wouldbe a very good everyday rod for medium to large streams out here. Chris Bogart's Dickerson is the best rod I have cast - it's a 8'6" 6weight. I would never have expected that. Jerry --- Reed Curry wrote:Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 21:26:52 -0400From: Reed Curry CC: rodmakers Subject: Re: 6 weight Rods Bill,I have 6 weight rods in many lengths (8'-10'). They are excellent large streams and/or large flies. Fishing streamers, you wouldreally want a medium action 6wt.Several older writers felt that an 8'6" 6wt was the bestall-around rod Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Bill Walters wrote: Recently started redoing a project rod that I thoughtwas a 4/5 wt. but when I got to the point I could testcast it, it takes a WF6 better. To any of the guysthat build for customers, do you ever get any calls lightweight 6 (considering its a 3-piece) thatbalances with a Pflueger and was thinking of buildinga couple of two-piece copies but not sure of thereception for a 6-weight, even such a light andversatile one. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from gjm80301@yahoo.com Sat Jul 7 10:52:29 2001 f67FqSZ22477 Jul 2001 08:52:27 PDT Subject: Fishing gods forgvie me..... I violated 20% of the TenCommandments last night Bob Nunley is not allowed to read this. I left rising fish and wished that the trail along the stream were100 yards instead of a mile. I was fishing the "Big" Thompson in Rocky Mountian National Park anda storm came through about 6:15. There was lightning, so I settleddown in low spot by the stream until it settled down. Around 6:45,the lightning had been gone for about 10 minutes and the light rainwas in the process of stopping. It had gotten quite dark with thecloud cover. I stood up and saw a movement in the brush to my left at about 20yards. It looked like lion color. Then I saw the silouhette ofmovement behind some fir trees, silent a sd slow, still at about 20yards, but moving around me. I cussed the sucker out, lost sight of him and crossed thestill-swollen stream, giving me a clear line of sight. Didn't seehim again and fumbled the 75 yards back to the trail (falling twice)and hustled the mile back to the car, making plenty of noise andwithing the car were closer. Nunley, don't worry. Lightning, lions and grizzly bears are not that bad. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from bob@downandacross.com Sat Jul 7 12:20:54 2001 f67HKqZ23561 Jul 2001 13:21:07 -0400 Subject: Eastkoyfly@aol.com --=====================_3157647==_.ALT Joe:Glad you are going with me. I got a call from some people today and I said that Sue was going so I could wait for the right guy to go with (you). Glad you called when you did. Please don't tell anyone you are going with me til we go. I did not want to hurt anyone's feelings, but I did not want to go with a loser either. Figured it would be better to say that my wife was going for now, and then choose a room mate after I had more guys to choose from. You helped solve that problem.Hope to see you soon, and I am very sorry to hear about your grandmother. Take care, Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com716.836.8297-- =====================_3157647==_.ALT Joe:Glad you are going with me. I got a call from some people today and Isaid that Sue was going so I could wait for the right guy to go with(you). Glad you called when you did. Please don't tell anyone you aregoing with me til we go. I did not want to hurt anyone's feelings, but Idid not want to go with a loser either. Figured it would be better to saythat my wife was going for now, and then choose a room mate after I hadmore guys to choose from. You helped solve that problem.Hope to see you soon, and I am very sorry to hear about your grandmother.Take care, Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com716.836.8297 --=====================_3157647==_.ALT-- from bob@downandacross.com Sat Jul 7 12:24:40 2001 f67HOdZ23774 Jul 2001 13:24:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Eastkoyfly@aol.com GUYS, THAT WAS NOT INTENDED TO MAKE THE LIST. IT'S A LONG STORY, I AMSORRY. from bob@downandacross.com Sat Jul 7 13:17:16 2001 f67IHEZ24463 Subject: My indiscretion Yes, I have done it again. Open mouth, insert foot. I have had this guy (on the list sometimes) being a total pain in the ass to me, and he had the nerve to ask if he could come since I was paying for the room, he could afford the price of the gathering. The language was a bit strong because Joe and I are such good pals. I am sorry to drag Joe and you all (the list) into this. I have also hurt several good people's feelings in the process that I did not intend to, and I have apologized to them individually. If the spendthrift is out there, so be it.I will take my leave of the list and you all now. See you sometime soon.Bob from hartzell@easystreet.com Sat Jul 7 13:32:52 2001 f67IWpZ24777 Subject: Ammonia Toning All,The liquid ammonia that is really strong is ammonium hydroxide. Itmay be obtained at a chemical supply house. It must be used with greatcaution. It is used in the furniture trade to darken oak (make itgolden). The process is to set a small dsh of it in an enclosed spaceand leave it with the oak over night. Some people put a candle underthe pot of ammonia to speed up the conversion to gas. Not recommended.Be very careful.Ammonium Carbonate is in the form of crystals and also may beobtained from chemical supply houses. It is not cheap. It may be usedin a small oven or pipe with the granules spread out along the rodstrips. I do this before glueing. The ammonium carbonate goes to gaswithout forming a liquid when heat is applied to the pipe with a torch.About 180 degree F will do it. Gasses form and depending upon how muchyou use and how hot you get it they will tone the cane Furtherinformation about techniques can be found in Kreider's little book onrod making This is the safest and best way to get cane dark.. AmmoniumCarbonate is also used by bakers. Try a bakers supply house for smallquantitiesEd from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sat Jul 7 14:26:40 2001 f67JQdZ25534 07 Jul 2001 12:26:39 PDT Subject: Re: Eastkoyfly@aol.com gee! bob, this reminds me of a story my granddad useto tell..... but i forgot which one. timothy :-) --- Downandacross Rods wrote:GUYS, THAT WAS NOT INTENDED TO MAKE THE LIST. IT'S ALONG STORY, I AM SORRY. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Sat Jul 7 14:37:12 2001 f67JbBZ25846 Sat, 7 Jul 2001 15:37:41 -0400 Subject: RE: Open mouth: Dear Bob, We allllllllllll have these moments of grace, I for one tend to do it on aweekly basis. Take care, Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRodmaker -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Eastkoyfly@aol.com gee! bob, this reminds me of a story my granddad useto tell..... but i forgot which one. timothy :-) --- Downandacross Rods wrote:GUYS, THAT WAS NOT INTENDED TO MAKE THE LIST. IT'S ALONG STORY, I AM SORRY. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from jojo@ipa.net Sat Jul 7 15:35:53 2001 f67KZqZ26479 Subject: Re: Sanding Block Oh, Bob. Come now. Surely you will be attending the Platinum Plus ballet? M-D List,First... NO FINANCIAL INTEREST WHATSOEVER, but... When I was atGrayrock, I got one of Bret's Sanding Blocks that a few of you got a fewweeks back. I had a chance to use it for the first time today and I lovedit. Very simple, easy to load with paper, fits the hand very well and issmall enough that you can see what you're doing and not "oversand" anarea.I never did care much for the rubber sanding blocks and had always boughtcheap wooden blocks from Wal mart, but they were really too big and nomatter which way you turned them, they obscured your view of what youweresanding on... these do not. I don't know if Bret is going to make anymoreof these, but if he does, you might consider talking to him about gettingone.Okie Dokie... off to pack my saddlebags for the Hairy Leg to Memphistomorrow... for those of you that aren't familiar with my biker lifestyle,"Hairy Leg" is what we call a road trip on the Motorcycles that is MENONLY... and Nope, we won't be going to the Opera or Ballet while we'rethere!!! *S* See you all in a couple of days! Bob from lblove@omniglobal.net Sat Jul 7 17:11:19 2001 f67MBIZ27456 Subject: George, was RE: What do you Know? To all, I must have missed the news over the past week or so,I've been in and out for the last 3 weeks...George was very neat, I have had the pleasure ofmeeting him a few times. I had numerous dealingswith him concerning airplanes and cane rods and he wasalways helpful. He was great with my two boys,never once told them to put anything down in theshop(he encouraged them to pick stuff up)."If they break it, we can fix it" is whathe use to tell me. George was known near and far,here in the state of Texas. I really enjoyed gettingto see his rod collection and some of the trickshe used in his refinishing of rods.I take great pleasure knowingthat I got to meet him and be his friend. sincerelyBrad ps if you need his address I can provide itto anyone who needs it. -----Original Message----- rodsupstream@exploremaine.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: What do you Know? Although I never met George I have had several e-mail correspondenceswith him these last two years.The news for me as come as a big shock as the last time we 'spoke' wasonly four weeks ago when he was just going into chemo.....I have lost agood friend.......be at peace George...........Paul Bill Hoy wrote: I'm extremely saddened by this news. I only knew George from the list, buthe was extremely helpful to me as a novice offlist. He will be missed. Bill At 08:05 PM 7/5/2001 -0400, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler)passingaway. I for one will miss him on the list and I hope everyone who hadcontact with him will drop his family a line and offer their condolences.Ihad the pleasure of talking to him many times on the phone and I can onlysaythat he was one cool guy.( Moment of silence). I hope you all offer him the same in his memory.Bret from DNHayashida@aol.com Sat Jul 7 17:53:11 2001 f67MrAZ28013 Subject: Hock A2 cryogenic plane blades I have been happy with my Hock plane blades, and I really think Ron Hock knows his stuff. So, when he came out with a new plane blade made from a different steel and started selling them commercially, I took some interest. The steel is called A2, and he has them cryogenically treated. That is some tempering process that involves temperatures down to -340 degrees F. You can't sharpen the new blades any sharper than his old blades, but the edge stays sharp quite a bit longer. You still need to resharpen if you hit your steel forms accidentally. I would say that the A2 blades stay sharp about50% longer. Maybe not enough to go and replace all your old Hock blades, but if you are looking for a new blade, I would recommend getting the A2 blades above his old blades.Darryl I have knows his stuff. So, when he came out with a new plane blade made from a different steel and started selling them commercially, I took someinterest. The steel is called A2, and he has them cryogenically treated. That issome tempering process that involves temperatures down to -340 degrees F.You can't sharpen the new blades any sharper than his old blades, but theedge stays sharp quite a bit longer. You still need to resharpen if you hit your steel forms accidentally. I would say that the A2 blades stay sharpabout 50% longer. Maybe not enough to go and replace all your old Hock blades, butif you are looking for a new blade, I would recommend getting the A2blades above his old blades.Darryl from teekay35@interlynx.net Sat Jul 7 18:43:39 2001 f67NhcZ28693 Subject: Re: Hock A2 cryogenic plane blades This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Lee Valley "Veritas" planes have A2 blades. I've been using the Veritas =block plane for nearly two years and it has become my favourite for = A tool maker friend and beginning rod maker has made several blades from =high speed steel and has given me one to try. I haven't been able to =give it a fair trial (ie, 18 finished splines), but on the one spline I =did, the cutting was clean, effortless and free of tears or chipss. =Theoretically, it should stay sharp longer. Lee Valley "Veritas" planes have A2 = I've been using the Veritas block plane for nearly two years and it has = A tool maker friend and beginning rod = splines), but on the one spline I did, the cutting was clean, effortless = longer. from teekay35@interlynx.net Sat Jul 7 18:48:41 2001 f67NmeZ28859 A249911DEC Subject: Rod Gatherings Some time in the last year someone posted a list of Bamboo Rod Gatheringdates and locations. If anyone has this, would you please send me the linkor a copy.Thanks in advance. from rvenneri@ulster.net Sat Jul 7 19:28:09 2001 f680S8Z29373 Organization: Venneri's Custom Components Subject: Re: What do you know? Heard from Bob V. Tim Doughty wrote: I just got an e-mail from Bob and he apparently had and computer cashand vacation that put him behind on shipping the n/s orders. My intentwas to see what Bob's history was so I could known which way toproceed, in no way did I want or intent to question his reputation orhonesty in this matter. Had Bob keep me informed as to his troublesthis would of not happen. I would like to thank the list members who responded to my inquiry,take care, Tim. Upstream Always Tim Doughty Rodmaker Hi Guys,Well Im back and ready to go. Tim I received your phone call and I willtry to call you on Sun or Mon. Thanks to everyone for there patience.Vacation was good had lots of time to fish and relax. Now its back towork. I will start shipping tubing again on Mon. Its also good to havemy computer back. Whew!!!! sure is a lot of mail to go thru. http://www.ulster.net/~rvenneri/index.html Best RegardsBob VVenneri's21 Chuck Hill RdSaugerties NY 12477845 246 5882http://www.ulster.net/~rvenneri/index.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Jul 7 20:40:57 2001 f681etZ00027 Subject: Re: George, was RE: What do you Know? George wanted something from me a while back. A few days after he askedforit somebody from Melbourne phoned me and asked for my address so hecouldsend payment for George so he could try to repay all the favours George haddone for him over the years. We got to talking and the guy told me ofGeorge's endevours here in Australia re. model aircraft where according tothis guy in Melb George was worshiped.I know George and I had quite a few private postings mainly about PHY and Ican tell you all that George was a gent and will be missed all over the world. Tony At 05:07 PM 7/7/01 -0500, Bradley Love wrote:To all, I must have missed the news over the past week or so,I've been in and out for the last 3 weeks...George was very neat, I have had the pleasure ofmeeting him a few times. I had numerous dealingswith him concerning airplanes and cane rods and he wasalways helpful. He was great with my two boys,never once told them to put anything down in theshop(he encouraged them to pick stuff up)."If they break it, we can fix it" is whathe use to tell me. George was known near and far,here in the state of Texas. I really enjoyed gettingto see his rod collection and some of the trickshe used in his refinishing of rods.I take great pleasure knowingthat I got to meet him and be his friend. sincerelyBrad ps if you need his address I can provide itto anyone who needs it. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:34 AM Cc: Grhghlndr@aol.com; fbcwin@3g.quik.com;rodsupstream@exploremaine.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: What do you Know? Although I never met George I have had several e-mail correspondenceswith him these last two years.The news for me as come as a big shock as the last time we 'spoke' wasonly four weeks ago when he was just going into chemo.....I have lost agood friend.......be at peace George...........Paul Bill Hoy wrote: I'm extremely saddened by this news. I only knew George from the list,buthe was extremely helpful to me as a novice offlist. He will be missed. Bill At 08:05 PM 7/5/2001 -0400, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:I am sure that you all got the recent posting about George (Nobler)passingaway. I for one will miss him on the list and I hope everyone who hadcontact with him will drop his family a line and offer their condolences.Ihad the pleasure of talking to him many times on the phone and I canonlysaythat he was one cool guy.( Moment of silence). I hope you all offer him the same in his memory.Bret /**************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The only dif between kids and grown ups is sooner or later everyonelearns to not pick yer nose and scratch ya bum in public Paul Hogan back when he was really funny/**************************************************************************/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Jul 7 21:10:17 2001 f682AGZ00440 Sat, 7 Jul 2001 23:09:32 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods jmpio@nhbm.comSubject: Re: nodeless question Thanks Dennis,I have no intentions of using it, I'm quite pleased with theglue I use now. Just found it strange I hadn't noticed it on the shelf before,thought i had everything on the Busy Bee store shelves memorized ;^) andhad seensome recent discussion of hide glue.Shawn Dennishigham@cs.com wrote: Shawn,re. Titebond hide glue.It's not new. I glued up a rod with it 4 or 5 years ago. It workedgreat....Tacked up so fast I almost didn't get it thru the binder . Whenheating it to straighten I heard a sound like a tiny little zipper....all 6strips delminated. Don't use the bottle stuff if you're going to use hidestick with the granules and a hot pot. Dennis from rodwrapp@swbell.net Sat Jul 7 22:15:55 2001 f683FsZ01221 (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) Subject: Wanted Planeing forms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Im just starting and I am looking for used tools forsale, so if anybody =has any let me know.. Also I would like a list of people whom make =planeing forms.. Thanks Dave Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:50 PMSubject: Beveller for sale Hi friends:I have a Bellinger Roughing and Tapering Beveller that I would like to =sell. It has 60 and 90 degree cutters with little use on them. The whole =unit is only 2-3 months old. It is almost new. New cost is $1900, and =Russ at GW says it should command about $1675 in its current state of =newness. I have only run about 5 rods worth of strips through it, =mostly with the 90* cutters.I would be glad to pay the shipping of both the mill and the tapering =forms. Instructions included, of course.It is a great machine, but I am doing so limited a run of rods, it is =not getting the good use it deserves. Since I am not selling this =commercially so to speak and since many guys out there could use good =tools, I hope this is okay. I would be willing to take a check or Pay =Pal.Thanks, Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com Im just starting and I am looking for = forsale, so if anybody has any let me know.. Also I would like a list of = ----- Original Message ----- Maulucci Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 =2:50 PMSubject: Beveller for =saleHi friends:I have a Bellinger Roughing and Tapering = Beveller that I would like to sell. It has 60 and 90 degree cutters = little use on them. The whole unit is only 2-3 months old. It is = New cost is $1900, and Russ at GW says it should command about $1675 = through it, mostly with the 90* cutters.I would be glad to pay the = shipping of both the mill and the tapering forms. Instructions = course.It is a great machine, but I am doing so limited a run of = commercially so to speak and since many guys out there could use good = Pal.Thanks, from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Sun Jul 8 10:29:44 2001 f68FThZ07046 Sun, 08 Jul 2001 08:29:43 PDT Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) Darryl,What glue did you use with the rod that was soaked inAmmonia? Bill W.--- DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: Funny we should be talking about ammonia toning. Ijust tried a series of tests to ammonia tone a few rods. First I tried putting a blank rod in a tube andtaped a bottle of household ammonia to one end, sealing the other end. Thatworked, but it took about 10 days to get any appreciable darkening. Then I triedheating the bottle with a heat gun (use a glass bottle), and that darkened therod in a couple hours, and when I took the rod out of the tube I noticedthe ammonia had condensed on the rod, making it wet with ammonia. Figuring Ihad already done any damage that could be done, I poured straight ammoniain the tube and let it soak overnight. That turned the rod a very dark evenbrown. After 3 days in my drying cabinet I can't tell it apart from anyother rod I made as far as the action is concerned. I mean it doesn't take aset or is any softer or slower that I can tell, and it is a nice even darkbrown, just like the Heddons I was trying to imitate. One word of cautionthough - the ammonia fumes from your drying cabinet are pretty intense.Darryl In a message dated 7/6/01 3:11:08 PM PacificDaylight Time, horsesho@ptd.net writes:none wrote: I don't know, ammonia toning seemed to work justfine for Granger and Heddon.The first thing I learned when I started doingthis madness 15 years ago is thatyou can't believe everything you read in print.Especially pertaining torodmaking. Marty Jojo DeLancier wrote: Ammonia toning is one of the major no-no'slisted in Milward's book. M-D From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Ray Gould stains his cane with amonia in hisoven like furniture makersturn red oak into the color everybody loves byfuming with ammonia, itreacts with the tannin in the wood. ---------- From: Downandacross M-DI reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers,and I think it is a greatbook.How does that song go, "You don't tug onSuperman's cape, you don't spitinto the wind, you don't pull the maskoff the old Lone Ranger, and youdon't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob more.SOmuch for the old ways.One question I have raised by the book iswhat is the recommended way tostain cane if you heat treat and want adarker appearance? I tried someMinWax stain today, and it seems to beineffective on light oven bakedcane.Thanks for starting this thread,Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancierwrote:Okay, I know there have been severalpeople who've ordered and read BobMilward's new book and yet, nobody istalking about it. Whatsamatta'people,afraid to step on some toes?M-D __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from DCURTIS@satx.rr.com Sun Jul 8 10:40:29 2001 f68FeSZ07310 f68FeIu3024258 Subject: Re: Wanted Planeing forms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Dave, I'm also starting out, but I'm more interested in getting with someone =and talking about bamboo rods. If anyone is near San Antonio and =wouldn't mined me stopping by please let me know. I currently have =several of the books recommended by several of the web sites out there =and I have read them all at least once. I plan on making my own forms, =unless a deal I could not refuse would come along. My goal is to be =able to start by December of this year (I currently have an Air Force =class I have to finish up, so it is eating up a lot of my current time). =Also, Dave if you would email me off list I'll send you the web sites I =have that have planning forms for sale. I remember that about a month =back someone gave a "quality grouping" of the forms out there. Darrin Curtisdcurtis@satx.rr.com Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 10:11 PMSubject: Wanted Planeing forms Im just starting and I am looking for used tools forsale, so if =anybody has any let me know.. Also I would like a list of people whom =make planeing forms.. Thanks Dave Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:50 PMSubject: Beveller for sale Hi friends:I have a Bellinger Roughing and Tapering Beveller that I would like =to sell. It has 60 and 90 degree cutters with little use on them. The =whole unit is only 2-3 months old. It is almost new. New cost is $1900, =and Russ at GW says it should command about $1675 in its current state =of newness. I have only run about 5 rods worth of strips through it, =mostly with the 90* cutters.I would be glad to pay the shipping of both the mill and the =tapering forms. Instructions included, of course.It is a great machine, but I am doing so limited a run of rods, it =is not getting the good use it deserves. Since I am not selling this =commercially so to speak and since many guys out there could use good =tools, I hope this is okay. I would be willing to take a check or Pay =Pal.Thanks, Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com Dave, I'm = out, but I'm more interested in getting with someone and talking about = grouping" of the forms out there. Darrin Curtisdcurtis@satx.rr.comSan Antonio, TX ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 = PMSubject: Wanted Planeing =forms Im just starting and I am looking for = forsale, so if anybody has any let me know.. Also I would like a list = Dave ----- Original Message ----- Maulucci Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 = PMSubject: Beveller for =saleHi friends:I have a Bellinger Roughing and = Beveller that I would like to sell. It has 60 and 90 degree cutters = little use on them. The whole unit is only 2-3 months old. It is = New cost is $1900, and Russ at GW says it should command about $1675= through it, mostly with the 90* cutters.I would be glad to pay = shipping of both the mill and the tapering forms. Instructions = course.It is a great machine, but I am doing so limited a run of = it is not getting the good use it deserves. Since I am not selling = commercially so to speak and since many guys out there could use = Pal.Thanks, from Mark_Dyba@hotmail.com Sun Jul 8 17:29:53 2001 f68MTnZ11901 Sun, 8 Jul 2001 15:29:43 -0700 Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning FILETIME=[7C6CF400:01C107FD] Has anyone tried Bichromate of Potash as a toning agent?Mark----- Original Message ----- Subject: Ammonia Toning All,The liquid ammonia that is really strong is ammonium hydroxide. Itmay be obtained at a chemical supply house. It must be used with greatcaution. It is used in the furniture trade to darken oak (make itgolden). The process is to set a small dsh of it in an enclosed spaceand leave it with the oak over night. Some people put a candle underthe pot of ammonia to speed up the conversion to gas. Not recommended.Be very careful.Ammonium Carbonate is in the form of crystals and also may beobtained from chemical supply houses. It is not cheap. It may be usedin a small oven or pipe with the granules spread out along the rodstrips. I do this before glueing. The ammonium carbonate goes to gaswithout forming a liquid when heat is applied to the pipe with a torch.About 180 degree F will do it. Gasses form and depending upon how muchyou use and how hot you get it they will tone the cane Furtherinformation about techniques can be found in Kreider's little book onrod making This is the safest and best way to get cane dark.. AmmoniumCarbonate is also used by bakers. Try a bakers supply house for smallquantitiesEd from iank@ts.co.nz Sun Jul 8 21:22:45 2001 f692MhZ15387 Subject: the old craftsmen Seeing the list is rather quiet at the moment I thought I might mention thatI picked up an old 12' English salmon rod on the weekend. The age isprobably around early 1900's . The interesting feature , and the reason I bought it , is the intermediatebindings. They are about 1/8 inch apart on the tips widening to 1/4" apartat the butt. 259 intermediates on the tip and over 700 intermediates on therod! It also has a steel centre! Fortunately it is in very good condition and only needs one of the ferrulebindings to be redone. Interestingly the rod is very slow in action , judged moves back to the straight position and stops. Ian from rjwlawed@msn.com Mon Jul 9 01:16:57 2001 f696GuZ18992 Sun, 8 Jul 2001 23:16:51 -0700 Subject: new guy FILETIME=[BE378A30:01C1083E] hello all,just got my list confirmation, sure did enjoy browsing around there.=well,i'm just getting back into flyfishing after aprox. 12 years of socc=er.little league,football, boy and girl scouts etc,etc.need i say more! l=iving in central wis. makes getting to where the fish should be fairly e=asy but getting them on the reel a bit more work.i've just put the last coat of spar on a 7-4 3pc 4wt that was con=verted from a rather whippy(.360 at the check, .074 at the tip) 9 ft no n=ame that was tip short by six inches at the ferrule(at least i assume, by=the .074 at the tip) . i believe it was a south bend by the grip and sea=t.there are lot's of them around this area in antuiqe shops and auctions.=i took a bit off each end of the mid and moved the grip/ seat up the rod=so that all three pieces are the same lenght. it came cheap and was a go=od chance to see if i could rewrap/ refinsh a bamboo rod decently with wh=at i knew from 25 years in the cabinet building trade as well as test my =intuition about the "wiggle". the result was better than i thought i'd ge=t.after stripping it to bare wood, it got a new seat, grip and guides=. with the guides relocated and just temporarilly wrapped on for a test r=un the 4 wtf line worked best out of 4,5 and 6. the project was targeted = of " can't see'm unless you're looking for'em booboos, is great. i have =to thank all the knowledgeable people on this and a few other sights for =the bassis of my courage to dive into this, never having delved into rod =building of any sort before.i've always had a burning desire to have a cane rod but never had th=e opportunity to gather information as easily as on this site. little bit=s of info about modifying rods like i did just don't appear in the books =at the library or book store.i know one thing for sure, it's awful hard to look at my plastic rods=now.!!i'm hooked. i built a dipping fixture and a guide wrapping fixture= he planing forms.i have a very good friend in the gun building trade that=owes me a house worth of kudos.my next project will be the forms, wrapper and heat treating oven.one point of intrest....having used planes and scrapers for a good par=t of my life i can see the need of a scraper that is more than just the n=ormal flat piece of steel i usually use. i am presently worling on a conv=ersion for a stanely 9-1/2 that will turn it into a scraper. i will keep =you informed and will make plans available when i get things worked out.i do have a couple of questions to start things off..... i just got a=1rpm. motor from a friend and was wondering if that is too slow for a dr=ying fixture, i see that most of them are in the 3-5 rpm range.secondly, =on the rod i just finished, in an attempt to "modernize" the process of s=ealing wraps i gave them a very light coat of flex-coat by putting it on,=letting it soak in good then wiping it off so that all that there was is =what the wraps will hold. then just before it was fully cured i very ligh=tly wiped it with acetone which took the gloss off. the spar should hang =on to this very well.i learned this when requested to in-lay a silver coi=n into the dash board of a very old chris craft speed boat. there are now=eight coats of spar over that coin and no sign of separation, and this b=oat is used daily all summer long. has anyone tried this and what are you=r thoughts on using epoxy on the wraps?. i would again like to thank all forthe information made available t=o everyony on this site and hope that i can some day contribute as well..=............ron ward hello enjoy browsing around there. well,i'm just getting back into flyfishing a=fter aprox. 12 years of soccer.little league,football, boy and girl scout=s etc,etc.need i say more! living in central wis. makes getting to where =the fish should be fairly easy but getting them on the reel a bit more w= put =the last coat of spar on a 7-4 3pc 4wt that was converted from a rather w= short by six inches at the ferrule(at least i assume, by the .074 at the =tip) . i believe it was a south bend by the grip and seat.there are lot's=of them around this area in antuiqe shops and auctions. i took a bit off=each end of the mid and moved the grip/ seat up the rod so that all thre=e pieces are the same lenght. it came cheap and was a good chance to see =if i could rewrap/ refinsh a bamboo rod decently with what i knew from 25=years in the cabinet building trade as well as test my intuition about t=he "wiggle". the result was better than i thought i'd get. &nb= seat, grip and guides. with the guides relocated and just temporarilly w= the finish , with just a couple of " can't see'm unless you're looking f=or'em booboos, is great. i have to thank all the knowledgeable people on =this and a few other sights for the bassis of my courage to dive into thi=s, never having delved into rod building of any sort before. &= od but never had the opportunity to gather information as easily as on th=is site. little bits of info about modifying rods like i did just don't a= nbsp; i know one thing for sure, it's awful hard to look at my plastic ro=ds now.!!i'm hooked. i built a dipping fixture and a guide wrapping fixtu=re for this rod,and already sent one of my 9-1/2's out to be relieved for=the planing forms.i have a very good friend in the gun building trade th= next p=roject will be the forms, wrapper and heat treating oven. &nbs= od part of my life i can see the need of a scraper that is more than just=the normal flat piece of steel i usually use. i am presently worling on =a conversion for a stanely 9-1/2 that will turn it into a scraper. i will=keep you informed and will make plans available when i get things worked= hings off..... i just got a 1rpm. motor from a friend and was wondering i=f that is too slow for a drying fixture, i see that most of them are in t=he 3-5 rpm range.secondly, on the rod i just finished, in an attempt to "=modernize" the process of sealing wraps i gave them a very light coat of =flex-coat by putting it on,letting it soak in good then wiping it off so =that all that there was is what the wraps will hold. then just before it =was fully cured i very lightly wiped it with acetone which took the gloss=off. the spar should hang on to this very well.i learned this when reque=sted to in-lay a silver coin into the dash board of a very old chris craf=t speed boat. there are now eight coats of spar over that coin and no sig=n of separation, and this boat is used daily all summer long. has anyone =tried this and what are your thoughts on using epoxy on the wraps?.&n= n made available to everyony on this site and hope that i can some day co=ntribute as well..............ron ward from DNHayashida@aol.com Mon Jul 9 01:29:52 2001 f696TpZ19285 Subject: Re: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) In a message dated 7/8/01 8:30:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, wlwalter77us@yahoo.com writes: Tiebond II ExtendDarryl Darryl,What glue did you use with the rod that was soaked inAmmonia? Bill W. In amessage dated 7/8/01 8:30:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, wlwalter77us@yahoo.com writes: Tiebond II ExtendDarryl Darryl,What glue did you use with the rod that was soaked inAmmonia? Bill W. from jojo@ipa.net Mon Jul 9 02:05:53 2001 f6975qZ19752 Subject: For Lee Freeman. Sorry, Folks. Lee, I tried to respond to your mail tonight but the response kept gettingbounced. Apparently my ISP uses an open relay, thus allowing spammers freerein, and your ISP has mine blocked. This must be something new. I havewritten my ISP about it and we'll see what comes of it. I'll re-send you theresponse as I am able. Just wanted you to know I wasn't ignoring you. Martin-Darrell from stuart.rod@gmx.de Mon Jul 9 02:16:06 2001 f697G5Z20015 (149.225.68.169) Subject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last night andremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read last week aboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at their ends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water to exitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterproof theculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treating andthen instead of having to force the water all the way along the stripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a test ofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be used and thiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundaries asstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findings thatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult for water totravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straightened it andpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transport abilities ofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain places betweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rod later. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in the basementworking on a rod. Stuart from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Jul 9 04:39:14 2001 f699dDZ21561 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Leonard 38 ACM I know I'm probably wasting my breath, but does anyone have the originalguidespacing for a Leonard 38 ACM ???Shawn from horsesho@ptd.net Mon Jul 9 05:00:41 2001 f69A0eZ21886 sender ) Subject: Leonard 37H 61/2' #4 Hi, Does anyone have the taper for the Leonard 37H 6 1/2' #4. Thanks,Marty from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Jul 9 05:19:18 2001 f69AJIZ22226 Subject: Re: New Guy This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Welcome aboard Ron!If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.Tony Miller Welcome aboard Ron!If you have any questions, don't = ask.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Jul 9 08:44:11 2001 f69DiBZ26256 IAA16995 GAA14365 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: RE: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) ray gould uses ammonium carbonate to color cane darker than blond. Heplaces the ammonium on a tray in his oven and heat treats as normal. Hesays the carbonate goes from a solid to a gas with out going through a liquidstage and that the carbonate penetrates the cane and makes it harder. ---------- Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 4:53 PM Subject: Ammonia Toning (Was: Bob's Book) Funny we should be talking about ammonia toning. I just tried a series of tests to ammonia tone a few rods. First I tried putting a blank rod in a tube and taped a bottle of household ammonia to one end, sealing the other end. That worked, but it took about10 days to get any appreciable darkening. Then I tried heating the bottle witha heat gun (use a glass bottle), and that darkened the rod in a couple hours, and when I took the rod out of the tube I noticed the ammonia hadcondensed on the rod, making it wet with ammonia. Figuring I had already done any damage that could be done, I poured straight ammonia in the tube and let it soak overnight. That turned the rod a very dark even brown. After 3 daysin my drying cabinet I can't tell it apart from any other rod I made as far as the action is concerned. I mean it doesn't take a set or is any softer or slower that I can tell, and it is a nice even dark brown, just like the Heddons I was trying to imitate. One word of caution though - the ammonia fumes from your drying cabinet are pretty intense. Darryl In a message dated 7/6/01 3:11:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,horsesho@ptd.net writes: none wrote: I don't know, ammonia toning seemed to work just fine for Grangerand Heddon. The first thing I learned when I started doing this madness 15 yearsago is that you can't believe everything you read in print. Especially pertaining to rodmaking. Marty Jojo DeLancier wrote: Ammonia toning is one of the major no-no's listed in Milward's book. M-D From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Ray Gould stains his cane with amonia in his oven like furniture makers turn red oak into the color everybody loves by fuming withammonia, it reacts with the tannin in the wood. ---------- M-D I reviewed it in the latest Power Fibers, and I think it is a great book. How does that song go, "You don't tug on Superman's cape, youdon't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, and you don't mess around with Jim." Long live Bob for doing all theseand more. SO much for the old ways. One question I have raised by the book is what is therecommended way to stain cane if you heat treat and want a darker appearance? Itried some MinWax stain today, and it seems to be ineffective on lightoven baked cane. Thanks for starting this thread, Bob At 08:31 PM 7/5/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote: Okay, I know there have been several people who've orderedand read Bob Milward's new book and yet, nobody is talking about it. Whatsamatta' people, afraid to step on some toes? M-D from harms1@pa.net Mon Jul 9 10:05:26 2001 f69F5QZ29464 Subject: Re: Leonard 37H 61/2' #4 You may get several versions of this rod taper, depending upon the "vintage"of the sample. Like so many other makers, Leonard seemed always to be"tweaking" the numbers, so seemingly similar rods with the same modelnumber are often quite different. I have a 37H and so does one of my good friends. What these rods have incommon is that they are both 6 1/2 feet, and that's about it. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Leonard 37H 61/2' #4 Hi, Does anyone have the taper for the Leonard 37H 6 1/2' #4. Thanks,Marty from jmpio@nhbm.com Mon Jul 9 10:29:14 2001 f69FTDZ00601 Subject: Plane Tune-Up I am currently using a new Stanley 9-1/2. I've got the plane well- tunedoverall, except for one problem. There is a lot of slop in thedepth- adjustment, this is slop (about 1/16-1/8") between the depthadjustment nut and the adjustment lever (in other words the opening in thelever is 1/16 or so wider than the width of the nut). Does anyone have amethod for fixing this? from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Jul 9 11:47:30 2001 f69GlTZ03998 Subject: Re: Plane Tune -Up This is a multi-part message in MIME format. OK I'll try and tackle this one.The slop in the adjustment of the blade is normal.I'll try to explain. It would be easier to show you but that's not =possible. If you have every run any machinery like a lathe or a milling =machine. The first thing you notice is that there is slop in the slides. =Not side to side but front to back. But yet it can still make cuts to =within a tenths (.0001) machinist tenths.so how does it do it ? well , the dial gauge is adjustable and what you =do is always back it out and then start forward makinga cut and zero in from the datum. To put it in plane terms:you simply back the cutter (i.e.the plane blade out) then move it =forward taking up the slack, see if it makes a cut and then move it =forward again if it doesn't. Once it makes the cut you want just make =sure forward pressure stays on the screw adjustment. What this does is =let you know where you are.If you were to back the adjustment up, your backing it up into the slop =so when you go forward again it will not be the same amount of cut as if =you were to have just keep forward pressure on it. So what I'm trying to =say is if you make to deep of a cut you should back it out and start =over. Not try to back it up alittle and then go forward again. Because =you have lost your datum(0 point or starting point) in the slop and =there is no telling where your at. Now its really not as complicated as =I'mmaking it sound, but if you want to make accurate cuts (withina .001) with a sloppy tool, this is what you must do. If you go out and =buy a new one you will find it is just as sloppy.What makes a plane accurate is the screw thread and the base not the =precision of the slide. I hope I didn't confuse the issue for you. If =anyone can put this in simpler terms feel free to do so. If you wanted =to get real technical you could figure out how many threads per inch are =in the adjustment screw and calculate how much of a turn on the screw is =in terms of thousands, but that is going over the deep end a little for =such a basic tool. Forward pressure is the solution to your problem.just remember once you back it up you have to start over to find the =starting point. After awhile you will get the feel of the slop and you =won't need to do this anymore. I hope this helped.email me off list if you would like further explanation or you cancall me at (419)782-5752Tony Miller OK I'll try and tackle this =one.The slop in the adjustment of the blade= normal.I'll try to explain. It would be easier = lathe or a milling machine. The first thing you notice is that there is = the slides. Not side to side but front to back. But yet it can still = to within a tenths (.0001) machinist tenths.so how does it do it ? well , the dial = makinga cut and zero in from the datum. Toput = plane terms:you simply back the cutter (i.e.the = out) then move it forward taking up the slack, see if it makes a cut and = move it forward again if it doesn't. Once it makes the cut you want just = sure forward pressure stays on the screw adjustment. What this does is = know where you are.If you were to back the adjustment up,= backing it up into the slop so when you go forward again it will not be = amount of cut as if you were to have just keep forward pressure on it. = I'm trying to say is if you make to deep of a cut you should back it out = start over. Not try to back it up alittle and then go forward again. = have lost your datum(0 point or starting point) in the slop and there is = telling where your at. Now its really not as complicated as =I'mmaking it sound, but if you want tomake = cuts (withina .001) with a sloppy tool, this is what= sloppy.What makes a plane accurate is thescrew = = in simpler terms feel free to do so. If you wanted to get real technical = could figure out how many threads per inch are in the adjustment screw = calculate how much of a turn on the screw is in terms of thousands, but = going over the deep end a little for such a basic tool. Forward pressure = solution to your problem.just remember once you back it up you= start over to find the starting point. After awhile you will get the = slop and you won't need to do this anymore. I hope this =helped.email me off list if you would like = explanation or you cancall me at (419)782-5752Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Jul 9 12:29:23 2001 f69HTMZ05416 KAA09215; Subject: Re: Heat treating Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules and can exitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reaches its boilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culm and exitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily through the tubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actually removing theenamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in fact remove thewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from the heat and it mayactually protect it from damage during the heat treating process. When itcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just above boiling, andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes to heattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350* and underanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) gives the resultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last night andremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read last weekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at their ends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water to exitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterproof theculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treating andthen instead of having to force the water all the way along the stripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a test ofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be used and thiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundaries asstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findings thatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult for water totravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straightened it andpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transport abilities ofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain places betweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rod later. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in the basementworking on a rod. Stuart from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Mon Jul 9 12:51:53 2001 f69HppZ06271 Mon, 09 Jul 2001 10:51:48 PDT Subject: Bleached Cork Rings Just bought some cork rings off of Ebay and when Ireceived them I thought that there was some kind ofchemical contamination in the rings and when Icontacted the seller was told that these were bleachedrings that had been bleached in Portugal and that thiswas a common practice. Anyone familiar with this andare these rings that I should be using? Thanks,Bill W. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Jul 9 13:11:24 2001 f69IBNZ06971 LAA23465 LAA17789 (5.5.2650.21) "'Adam Vigil'" Subject: RE: Heat treating Bamboo like wood looses 90% of it moisture through the end grain and usesmedullarie rays to transfer the moisture outward towards the enamel. Toslow down the drying of wood/bamboo, the end grain is sealed and thematerial surface drys which prevents checking to a large extent. The violinshop I worked at supplied wood to builders all over the world, we cut up greenlogs and air-dried the wood, as kiln drying cooked the life out of it. we sealedthe end grain with paraffin and paint thinner mix and just about completelyeliminated checking, I've done the same thing with my culms, and aside fromthe drying split they've hardly checked at all compare the the uncoatedculms. I talked to Walt Powell a few years ago and he told me that they heatto 200 degree for a few hours to get the moisture out before they raisedthe temp up to 350 by steps. They felt that if you heated above boilingtemperature the moisture turned to steam and tended to rupture the cellwalls and that by kee!!ping the temp below boiling that most of the moisture could be driven out without damaging the cells. I tried this on the last culm I heat treated themoisture ran out of the end grain, Bob Milward had came to the sameconclusion. ---------- Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Heat treating Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules and can exitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reaches its boilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culm and exitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily through the tubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actually removing theenamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in fact remove thewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from the heat and itmayactually protect it from damage during the heat treating process. When itcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just above boiling, andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes to heattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350* and underanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) gives the resultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Stuart Moultrie Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 12:23 AMSubject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last night andremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read last weekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at their ends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water to exitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterproof theculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treating andthen instead of having to force the water all the way along the stripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a test ofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be used and thiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundaries asstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findings thatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult for water totravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straightened it andpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transport abilities ofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain places betweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rod later. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in the basementworking on a rod. Stuart from bhoy551@earthlink.net Mon Jul 9 13:12:17 2001 f69ICGZ07099 Mon, 9 Jul 2001 14:12:31 -0400 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Heat treating FILETIME=[B896A890:01C108A2] Adam, I have questions about the temperature for drying. My concern is that raising the temp above boiling might cause damage to the power fibers and connecting tissue as the vapor tries to escape. My practice has been to dry this leave too much free water in the cane? I soak my strips for planing the untapered triangle before heat treating. Bill At 08:40 AM 7/11/2001 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote:Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules and can exitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reaches its boilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culm and exitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily through the tubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actually removing theenamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in fact remove thewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from the heat and itmayactually protect it from damage during the heat treating process. When itcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just above boiling, andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes to heattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350* and underanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) gives the resultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Stuart Moultrie Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 12:23 AMSubject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last night andremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read last weekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at their ends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water to exitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterproof theculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treating andthen instead of having to force the water all the way along the stripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a test ofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be used and thiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundaries asstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findings thatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult for water totravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straightened it andpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transport abilities ofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain places betweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rod later. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in the basementworking on a rod. Stuart from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Jul 9 14:03:34 2001 f69J3XZ12792 Mon, 9 Jul 2001 16:02:46 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Leonard 37H 61/2' #4 Marty,I found the same thing when trying to decide "which" 38ACM taper Iwasgoing to use. The tapers vary to the point that the rods cannot even beencompared.I have that taper I think so I'll see if I can find it (them) and get back to you, Shawn WILLIAM HARMS wrote: You may get several versions of this rod taper, depending upon the"vintage"of the sample. Like so many other makers, Leonard seemed always to be"tweaking" the numbers, so seemingly similar rods with the same modelnumber are often quite different. I have a 37H and so does one of my good friends. What these rods have incommon is that they are both 6 1/2 feet, and that's about it. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "none" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 5:59 AMSubject: Leonard 37H 61/2' #4 Hi, Does anyone have the taper for the Leonard 37H 6 1/2' #4. Thanks,Marty from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Jul 9 14:15:46 2001 f69JFjZ16346 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: A question???? Just curious, has anyone noticed a drastic upswing in the amount of spamtheyhave been receiving lately??? I have several e mail accounts that don't seemto havechanged but this account I use pretty much just for the list and I have seenmorespam here in the past few weeks than I have ever gotten total to this time.Shawn from lblan@provide.net Mon Jul 9 14:24:24 2001 f69JONZ18815 Subject: Re: A question???? http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Shawn; I guard this account zealously. I seldom receive spam, although I havegotten a couple of them in the last two weeks or so. One of them, I was ableto track to a catalog request I made long ago, the other was true spam. So...no, I have not seen a noticeable increase that I can or would attribute to thelist. My other accounts... well, spam is why I have them! Larry Blan Just curious, has anyone noticed a drastic upswing in the amount ofspamtheyhave been receiving lately??? I have several e mail accounts that don'tseemto havechanged but this account I use pretty much just for the list and I have seenmorespam here in the past few weeks than I have ever gotten total to this time. Shawn http://www.provide.net from caneman@clnk.com Mon Jul 9 15:01:38 2001 f69K1bZ29705 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Leonard 37H 61/2' #4 Actually, this is my only email account and I get so much spam and junk thatI wouldn't notice any increase. Bob Subject: Re: Leonard 37H 61/2' #4 Marty,I found the same thing when trying to decide "which" 38ACMtaper I wasgoing to use. The tapers vary to the point that the rods cannot even beencompared.I have that taper I think so I'll see if I can find it (them) and get backto you, Shawn WILLIAM HARMS wrote: You may get several versions of this rod taper, depending upon the"vintage"of the sample. Like so many other makers, Leonard seemed always to be"tweaking" the numbers, so seemingly similar rods with the same modelnumber are often quite different. I have a 37H and so does one of my good friends. What these rods haveincommon is that they are both 6 1/2 feet, and that's about it. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "none" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 5:59 AMSubject: Leonard 37H 61/2' #4 Hi, Does anyone have the taper for the Leonard 37H 6 1/2' #4.Thanks,Marty from GRNMTRODS@aol.com Mon Jul 9 15:31:33 2001 f69KVWZ08369 Subject: ammonia toning HELLO EVERYONE, Looking for an alternate way to darken bamboo is great. But what happens to the glue after all this soaking ,fumming and dabbing? Do you remember all the hide glued items in the pyramids? Whats wrong with doing it the way it was originally done ? My rods aren't breaking from flamming or heat treating. I would like to see some one that is more knowledgeable than my self , tell me what kind of chemical reaction is happening between the glues we areusing and the ammonia. Wondering,Jim HELLO EVERYONE, Looking for an alternate way to darken bamboo is great. But whathappens to the glue after all this soaking ,fumming and dabbing? Do you remember all the hide glued items in the pyramids? Whats wrongwith doing it the way it was originally done ? My rods aren't breaking from flamming or heat treating. I would like to see some one that is more knowledgeable than my self ,tell me what kind of chemical reaction is happening between the glues weare using and the ammonia. Wondering,Jim from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Jul 9 15:54:50 2001 f69KsnZ14932 NAA29187; "Bill Hoy" Subject: Re: Heat treating Bill, The temperature of 225* is enough to drive off the water out of a culm anddry it. The test I ran were breakage and bending test. When the strip isdryed only at 225* the would not break until extreme pressure and bendingoccured. A lower temp would also provide a similiar result. The oven is setat 225* the temp in the strip is acutally going to be lower until it reachesequilibrium with the oven. There has been alot of talk on damaging the cane.Well the matter of fact is we damage it when we cut it from the ground, dryit, heat treat it,flame it, plane it and sand it. The key is to keep thedamage within an acceptable range to where it still provide us with the flyrod we expect. There are thousands of rods out there that are heat treatedand work perfectly for their intended purposes. And yet they are damaged.Makes you think....hmm? Best regards, Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Heat treating Adam, I have questions about the temperature for drying. My concern is thatraising the temp above boiling might cause damage to the power fibers andconnecting tissue as the vapor tries to escape. My practice has been todry this leave too much free water in the cane? I soak my strips for planingthe untapered triangle before heat treating. Bill At 08:40 AM 7/11/2001 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote:Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules and can exitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reaches its boilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culm and exitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily through the tubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actually removing the enamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in fact remove thewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from the heat and itmayactually protect it from damage during the heat treating process. When itcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just above boiling, andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes to heattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350* and underanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) gives the resultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Stuart Moultrie Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 12:23 AMSubject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last night andremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read last weekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at their ends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water to exitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterproof theculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treating andthen instead of having to force the water all the way along the stripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a test ofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be used andthiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundaries asstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findings thatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult for water totravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straightened it andpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transport abilities ofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain places betweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rod later. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in the basementworking on a rod. Stuart from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Mon Jul 9 16:14:21 2001 f69LEKZ20711 Subject: Re: A question???? Shawn: I have noticed a considerable increase in spam lately, but I did make aboo-boo when I promoted my website with one of those "off the shelve"submission programs. It seems that this one (promising over 1000submissions) sent my information to these FFA sites (Free For All). Theonly thing to come out of it is constant spam from the owners of these FFAsites. My gosh how many MLM people are there out there? Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life".----- Original Message ----- Subject: A question???? Just curious, has anyone noticed a drastic upswing in the amount ofspam theyhave been receiving lately??? I have several e mail accounts that don'tseem to havechanged but this account I use pretty much just for the list and I haveseen morespam here in the past few weeks than I have ever gotten total to thistime.Shawn from rcolo@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul 9 16:23:03 2001 f69LN2Z23376 Subject: Re: A question???? Yes Shawn, I have noticed a definite increase.....Rich-----Original Message----- Subject: A question???? Just curious, has anyone noticed a drastic upswing in the amount ofspam theyhave been receiving lately??? I have several e mail accounts that don'tseem to havechanged but this account I use pretty much just for the list and I haveseen more>spam here in the past few weeks than I have ever gotten total tothis time.Shawn from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Jul 9 16:44:12 2001 f69LiBZ29380 Subject: Fwd: AMA address Here is George's wife's address and the address for the AMA if anyone needs it.Bret Here is George's wife's address and the address for the AMA ifanyone needs it.Bret -0400 Sun, 08 Jul 2001 17:05:28 -0400 f68L5Qu3023999 Subject: Re: AMA address Dear Bert, Thank you for your kind note I have printed out a copy for my mother,George's wife, your thoughts are much appreciated. The addresses yourequested are as follows: Academy of Modeling Aeronautics5161 E. Memorial Dr.Muncie, IN 47302Attn: Joyce Hager Mrs. George (Julie) Aldrich12822 TarrytownSan Antonio, Texas 78233 Sincerely, Debbie from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Mon Jul 9 17:13:04 2001 f69MD3Z07324 Subject: Re: A question???? [snip] My gosh how many MLM people are there out there? it's directly proportional to the number of phone calls you get at dinnertime trying to sell you new windows, siding or the latest and greatestcredit card. Paul Hmmmm. telemarketing for bamboo fly rods??? from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Jul 9 17:28:01 2001 f69MS0Z10794 PAA03279; "rodmakers" Subject: Re: Heat treating Patrick, Good ole Walt, he would know. I agree rising the temp to much above 200*could be detrimental to the cane. The 225* used in my trial did not weakenthe cane in any way that a would matter to rod making and I doubtmicrospcopicall either. The test strips that were dry but not heat treatedbent to 75 to 85* for a 10" strip. In a very green culm, mine were not, theH20 leaving rapidly possibly would rupture the cells to a point it had anegative impact on the cane. This should be tested.I am not saying 200* isnt a good temp to use, it is just 225* also had nonegative impact. As to rupturing the cells in cane this can be true but Ispeculate that by the time the cane reaches 225* most of the moisture hasalready left. There is no rupturing of the pith or power fibres where theH20 exited at that temp. The cell walls are also damaged in cane when it is sanded, planned, flamed,bent, dried, glued, straightend, spliced and compressed. Through usingtests that are relative to the way the cane will be used an average standardwill start to appear. Are we damaging cane as we make rods? Yes we are!Butas long as it is within a certain parameter the cane is still functional forour purposes. As one member of the list so appropriatley pointed out " Iwill take all those damaged flamed cane rods off of everybodies hands!" When I did the heat treating trial it was to clarify to myself what wasactually needed to achieve an appropritate heat treatment. Basically Iwanted to clear away the opinions and get down to the facts. I found anaccepatable time an temp for heat treating but is it the most appropriate?I dont know, after a few more trials I think I will have more answers. WhatI do know for a fact is a varitey of heat treatments will result indifferant actions and characteristics for the same cane. Some of those rodswill be "damaged" cellularly but will still be excellent functional fly rodsbecause their damage is within a range that is accepatable. Do not get me wrong I want cane with the least amount of damage possible.But part of being a creator of cane rods is we make decisions based uponwhat we wish as the end result. And the fact of the matter not all of us aregoing to end up wanting to use the exact same heat treatment due todifferant effects will be wanted. "Sometime you hurt the one you love" and so it seems it is no differant forcane. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- 'AdamVigil' Subject: RE: Heat treating Bamboo like wood looses 90% of it moisture through the end grain and usesmedullarie rays to transfer the moisture outward towards the enamel. Toslowdown the drying of wood/bamboo, the end grain is sealed and the materialsurface drys which prevents checking to a large extent. The violin shop Iworked at supplied wood to builders all over the world, we cut up green logsand air-dried the wood, as kiln drying cooked the life out of it. we sealedthe end grain with paraffin and paint thinner mix and just about completelyeliminated checking, I've done the same thing with my culms, and aside fromthe drying split they've hardly checked at all compare the the uncoatedculms. I talked to Walt Powell a few years ago and he told me that theyheat to 200 degree for a few hours to get the moisture out before theyraised the temp up to 350 by steps. They felt that if you heated aboveboiling temperature the moisture turned to steam and tended to rupture thecell walls and that by kee!!ping the temp below boiling that most of the moisture could be driven outwithout damaging the cells. I tried this on the last culm I heat treated themoisture ran out of the end grain, Bob Milward had came to the sameconclusion. ---------- Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Heat treating Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules and can exitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reaches itsboilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culm and exitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily through thetubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actually removing theenamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in fact remove thewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from the heat and itmayactually protect it from damage during the heat treating process. Whenitcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just above boiling,andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes to heattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350* andunderanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) gives theresultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Stuart Moultrie Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 12:23 AMSubject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last night andremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read last weekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at their ends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water to exitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterproof theculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treating andthen instead of having to force the water all the way along the stripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a test ofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be used andthiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundaries asstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findings thatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult for water totravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straightened it andpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transport abilities ofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain places betweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rod later. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in the basementworking on a rod. Stuart from horsesho@ptd.net Mon Jul 9 17:43:36 2001 f69MhaZ14475 sender ) Subject: Re: Leonard 37H 61/2' #4 none wrote: Hi Bob & List, The ACM series is much softer than the 37H. I just found outthat a local friend of mine has one for sale on Ebay. I'll grab the mike andgopay him a visit before it's gone. Once I get it I will pop it on thelist.Thanks, Marty Bob Nunley wrote: Marty,Chris McDowell posted this a couple of months ago. I think this may bewhat you're looking for. Later,Bob Shawn, Here is an ACM taper I measured a couple years ago. It is a 6 1/2' 2 pc.I'll list the three measurements, and both tips. I've not been able to makethe rod because quite simply the tip dimensions are too tiny for myforms.These measurements were taken over varnish which I estimated at .004"totalso I would take .002" off of each strip dimension. Chris 1" .042,.043,.044 .042,.043,.0465" .055,.057,.058 .053,.054,.05510" .070,.071,guide .071,.073,guide15" .088,.088,.089 .086,.088,.09020" .107,.107,.108 .101,.101,.10125" .114,.114,.116 .110,.110,.11230" .129,.131,.132 .123,.124,.12435" .134,.136,.136 .132,.133,.13541" .149,.149,.14945" .163,.163,.16350" .178,.179,.18155" .198,.198,.19960" .215,.218,.21965" .224,.228,.22868" .241,.244,.244 Swell begins70" about .310 (hookkeeper wrap here) from SBDunn@aol.com Mon Jul 9 18:04:24 2001 f69N4NZ17451 Subject: Re: Plane Tune-Up Just a few days ago someone (Bob Nunley I think???) posted a link to an article on Fine WoodWorking Magazines web site about planes that told howto fix this very problem. In a nutshell, they use a vice to close the opening (slightly) that the screw rides in. Regards, Steve. PS - There were two separate links posted. The first was about fuming the next about planes. You want the second. Just a few days agosomeone (Bob Nunley I think???) posted a link to an article on Fine WoodWorking Magazines web site about planes that toldhow to opening (slightly) that the screw rides in. Regards, Steve. fuming the from jfoster@gte.net Mon Jul 9 19:21:09 2001 f6A0L8Z03460 Subject: accounts since we seem to be into technicalities lately....rodmakers is NOT an account.. your @ is your account(s).. spam wouldonly come thru the list with the list address, has not happened in 4-5years...or someone could have liberated our names from the listproc, butyou wouldn't know so you couldn't possibly blame it on the list jerry from iank@ts.co.nz Mon Jul 9 19:53:31 2001 f6A0rSZ09953 Subject: Re: accounts What Jerry says makes sense to me. I have not had any spam via rodmakers. Ian ----- Original Message ----- Subject: accounts since we seem to be into technicalities lately....rodmakers is NOT an account.. your @ is your account(s).. spam wouldonly come thru the list with the list address, has not happened in 4-5years...or someone could have liberated our names from the listproc, butyou wouldn't know so you couldn't possibly blame it on the list jerry from beadman@mac.com Mon Jul 9 20:05:12 2001 f6A15BZ12189 Subject: Anti-Spam, was: A question???? 1217395394==_ma============" --============_-1217395394==_ma============ At 5:13 PM -0400 , 7/9/01, Bamboo Joe wrote about Re: A question????Shawn: I have noticed a considerable increase in spam lately, but I did make aboo-boo when I promoted my website with one of those "off the shelve"submission programs. It seems that this one (promising over 1000submissions) sent my information to these FFA sites (Free For All). Theonly thing to come out of it is constant spam from the owners of these FFAsites. bit of code that I include at the bottom of all of my web pages that allegedly holds down on the amount of spam. It's supposed to make it difficult for a spammer's search engine to find your email address, but still allows others to contact you. All you have to do is copy the code into your web page HTML, and change the email address items to your own email address... Claude --------- -freeware// Linktext is the text you want folks to see and click upon.// email1 & email2 are the text on either side of your email address's @ sign. var linktext = "Email Me!";var email1 = "freaner";var email2 = "home.com"; document.write("" +linktext + "")//--> --============_-1217395394==_ma============ Anti-Spam, was: A question????At 5:13 PM -0400 , 7/9/01, Bamboo Joe wrote about Re: Aquestion???? make a the shelve" 1000 these FFA here's a bit of code that I include at the bottom of all of my web supposed to make it difficult for a spammer's search engine to find you have to do is copy the code into your web page HTML, and changethe email address items to your own email address... Claude --------- <!--// SpamProof Mail Script 1.0 by Joseph McLean // Linktext is the text you want folks to see and click upon.// email1 & email2 are the text on either side of your emailaddress's @ sign. var linktext = "Email Me!";var email1 ="freaner";var email2 ="home.com"; document.write("<a href=" + "mail" + + --============_-1217395394==_ma============-- from setissma@email.msn.com Mon Jul 9 20:06:12 2001 f6A16BZ12469 Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:06:06 -0700 Subject: removing old finishes FILETIME=[7FE5D2C0:01C108DC] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. When this absolutely must be done, how should it be done? Is there a =specific way to do it, or does everyone reach for the can of commercial =remover? Jeff Schaeffer When this absolutely must be done, how= of commercial remover? Jeff =Schaeffer from jojo@ipa.net Mon Jul 9 20:28:04 2001 f6A1S3Z16911 Subject: Metalworking Link Hey, guys. Here's a great page for metalworking links of all types. Thisshould help those with lathes, milling equipment, and those who are looking http://www.metalwork.0catch.com/list.htm M-D from horsesho@ptd.net Mon Jul 9 21:18:45 2001 f6A2IjZ26580 Subject: Re: removing old finishes --------------B2563BB75F794370DE1370FF I use a liquid varnish stripper that cleans up with mineral spirits notwater. I map the guides and wraps on computer paper.I remove the silkwith a razor knife , put on disposible latex gloves, use a naturalbristle brush and going in one direction only put the stripper on. Waita few minutes and run a parer towel down the blank. Repeat until youremoved ALL varnish (3-4 times depending on how old the finish is).Saturate a paper towel in mineral spirits and complete the final wipedown. Let dry, rub with #0000 steel wool and rub on a base coat of tungoil varnish with your fingers as thin as possible. Now you are ready torewrap and finish the rod.I have also had luck removing just the varnish and leaving the orig.silk if it is in good condition. Same process just be more gentle.Marty setissma wrote: When this absolutely must be done, how should it be done? Is there aspecific way to do it, or does everyone reach for the can ofcommercial remover? Jeff Schaeffer --------------B2563BB75F794370DE1370FF I use a liquid varnish stripper that cleans up with mineral spirits notwater. I map the guides and wraps on computer paper.I remove the silk witha razor knife , put on disposible latex gloves, use a natural bristle brushand going in one direction only put the stripper on. Wait a few minutes varnish (3-4 times depending on how old the finish is). Saturate a papertowel in mineral spirits and complete the final wipe down. Let dry, rubwith #0000 steel wool and rub on a base coat of tung oil varnish with yourfingers as thin as possible. Now you are ready to rewrap and finish therod.I have also had luck removing just the varnish and leaving the orig.silk if it is in good condition. Same process just be more gentle.Martysetissma wrote: Whenthis absolutely must be done, how should it be done? Is there a specificway to do it, or does everyone reach for the can of commercial Schaeffer --------------B2563BB75F794370DE1370FF-- from robertgkope@home.com Tue Jul 10 00:04:13 2001 f6A54CZ04551 femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:04:07 -0700 Subject: Re: Bleached Cork Rings I don't know if it's standard practice, but I bought 100 rings about a twoyears ago from Anglers Workshop that were not bleached. They apologizedforthe fact that the rings were unbleached, but I preferred them that way. Thelast batch I bought from them about six months ago were bleached, and Iwastold that was the only way they could get them. The bleaching only affectsthe surface and there's nothing wrong with the cork. It looks perfectlynormal once you turn the grip down. -- Robert Kope----- Original Message ----- Subject: Bleached Cork Rings Just bought some cork rings off of Ebay and when Ireceived them I thought that there was some kind ofchemical contamination in the rings and when Icontacted the seller was told that these were bleachedrings that had been bleached in Portugal and that thiswas a common practice. Anyone familiar with this andare these rings that I should be using? Thanks,Bill W. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from bh887@lafn.org Tue Jul 10 00:49:24 2001 f6A5nNZ05253 forged)) Subject: Re: AMA address This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Just to keep records reasonably straight, the full title of AMA is The =Academy of Model Aeronautics. Lee Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 2:43 PMSubject: Fwd: AMA address Here is George's wife's address and the address for the AMA if anyone = Just to keep records reasonably straight, the full = AMA is The Academy of Model Aeronautics. Lee ----- Original Message ----- Grhghlndr@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 =2:43 PMSubject: Fwd: AMAaddressHere is = address and the address for the AMA if anyone needs it. = from utzerath@execpc.com Tue Jul 10 05:47:53 2001 f6AAlqZ07985 f6AABA681774; f6AAdOK87230; Subject: Re: Bleached Cork Rings Bill, It's purely cosmetic. Angler's Workshop tends to sell their "flor" gradethat way. I didn't care for the look. The white color only goes about1/16" deep so you get light accent rings at each glue line plus you can'tsee the cork color till after you sand; so you can't grade the color shadesif you want to avoid darker rings next to lighter ones. After a few yearsof use, it all looks the same anyway. Jim U ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Bleached Cork Rings Just bought some cork rings off of Ebay and when Ireceived them I thought that there was some kind ofchemical contamination in the rings and when Icontacted the seller was told that these were bleachedrings that had been bleached in Portugal and that thiswas a common practice. Anyone familiar with this andare these rings that I should be using? Thanks,Bill W. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from jfreeman@cyberport.com Tue Jul 10 06:50:34 2001 f6ABoXZ08519 mail.cyberport.com ,, "rodmakers" Subject: Re: Heat treating Guys, Don't we want a little damage? I mean, if you're trying to get a fast actionrod, don't you want a little damage to the fibers, which results in morestiffness? Aren't we really trying to find the balance point? I think thatheat treating to 350* or certainly 375* does cause a bit of brittleness,but the spine comes up too. If you get good life from a rod (how manytreated this way are out there - thousands?) and a good action, does thedamage amount to anything? Jim----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Heat treating Patrick, Good ole Walt, he would know. I agree rising the temp to much above 200*could be detrimental to the cane. The 225* used in my trial did not weakenthe cane in any way that a would matter to rod making and I doubtmicrospcopicall either. The test strips that were dry but not heat treatedbent to 75 to 85* for a 10" strip. In a very green culm, mine were not,theH20 leaving rapidly possibly would rupture the cells to a point it had anegative impact on the cane. This should be tested.I am not saying 200* isnt a good temp to use, it is just 225* also had nonegative impact. As to rupturing the cells in cane this can be true but Ispeculate that by the time the cane reaches 225* most of the moisturehasalready left. There is no rupturing of the pith or power fibres where theH20 exited at that temp. The cell walls are also damaged in cane when it is sanded, planned,flamed,bent, dried, glued, straightend, spliced and compressed. Through usingtests that are relative to the way the cane will be used an averagestandardwill start to appear. Are we damaging cane as we make rods? Yes we are!Butas long as it is within a certain parameter the cane is still functionalforour purposes. As one member of the list so appropriatley pointed out " Iwill take all those damaged flamed cane rods off of everybodies hands!" When I did the heat treating trial it was to clarify to myself what wasactually needed to achieve an appropritate heat treatment. Basically Iwanted to clear away the opinions and get down to the facts. I found anaccepatable time an temp for heat treating but is it the most appropriate?I dont know, after a few more trials I think I will have more answers.WhatI do know for a fact is a varitey of heat treatments will result indifferant actions and characteristics for the same cane. Some of thoserodswill be "damaged" cellularly but will still be excellent functional flyrodsbecause their damage is within a range that is accepatable. Do not get me wrong I want cane with the least amount of damage possible.But part of being a creator of cane rods is we make decisions based uponwhat we wish as the end result. And the fact of the matter not all of usaregoing to end up wanting to use the exact same heat treatment due todifferant effects will be wanted. "Sometime you hurt the one you love" and so it seems it is no differantforcane. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Coffey, Patrick W 'AdamVigil' Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 11:11 AMSubject: RE: Heat treating Bamboo like wood looses 90% of it moisture through the end grain andusesmedullarie rays to transfer the moisture outward towards the enamel. Toslowdown the drying of wood/bamboo, the end grain is sealed and the materialsurface drys which prevents checking to a large extent. The violin shop Iworked at supplied wood to builders all over the world, we cut up greenlogsand air-dried the wood, as kiln drying cooked the life out of it. wesealedthe end grain with paraffin and paint thinner mix and just aboutcompletelyeliminated checking, I've done the same thing with my culms, and asidefromthe drying split they've hardly checked at all compare the the uncoatedculms. I talked to Walt Powell a few years ago and he told me that theyheat to 200 degree for a few hours to get the moisture out before theyraised the temp up to 350 by steps. They felt that if you heated aboveboiling temperature the moisture turned to steam and tended to rupturethecell walls and that by kee!!ping the temp below boiling that most of the moisture could be drivenoutwithout damaging the cells. I tried this on the last culm I heat treatedthemoisture ran out of the end grain, Bob Milward had came to the sameconclusion. ---------- Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Heat treating Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules and canexitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reaches itsboilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culm andexitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily through thetubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actually removingtheenamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in fact removethewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from the heat anditmayactually protect it from damage during the heat treating process.Whenitcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just above boiling,andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes to heattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350* andunderanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) gives theresultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Stuart Moultrie Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 12:23 AMSubject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last night andremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read last weekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at theirends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water to exitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterproof theculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treating andthen instead of having to force the water all the way along thestripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a test ofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be used andthiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundaries asstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findings thatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult for water totravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straightened itandpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transport abilitiesofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain placesbetweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rod later. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in the basementworking on a rod. Stuart from anglport@con2.com Tue Jul 10 07:28:28 2001 f6ACSSZ09066 Subject: Re: Metalworking Link Yoicks!That's sure a load of potentially useful sites!!!Thanks,Art At 08:08 PM 07/09/2001 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote:Hey, guys. Here's a great page for metalworking links of all types. Thisshould help those with lathes, milling equipment, and those who are looking http://www.metalwork.0catch.com/list.htm M-D from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Tue Jul 10 08:02:37 2001 f6AD2aZ09847 Subject: Shipping To Japan Does any one know the best and cheapest way to ship rods to Japan? Alsodoes anyone know what EMS postal sevice is? T.I.A Joseph A Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith RdPortageville,NY 14536 716-493-2637 from bob@downandacross.com Tue Jul 10 08:28:53 2001 f6ADSqZ10961 Subject: Re: Shipping To Japan Burlington At 09:02 AM 7/10/2001 -0400, Eastkoyfly@aol.com wrote:Does any one know the best and cheapest way to ship rods to Japan? Alsodoesanyone know what EMS postal sevice is? T.I.A Joseph A Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith RdPortageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Jul 10 09:06:23 2001 f6AE6MZ12449 HAA03286; , "rodmakers" Subject: Re: Heat treating Jim, Yes you are right. That is the point I am trying to make. Drying in the200's then heat treating 300-375 is going to give differant resultsdepending upon the time and temp combination. And dont forget aboutflammingall that black stuff and dark brown stuff is damaged cane. But guess what?it seems to be withing an acceptable range of damage for our intended use.The purpose of doing heat trials is to let us know how the cane reacts andthis allows us to choose the affect we desire. Knowing the reaction of caneto flaming and heat treatment allow us to control what we are doing. Best Regards, Adam Vigil-----Original Message ----- ; rodmakers Subject: Re: Heat treating Guys, Don't we want a little damage? I mean, if you're trying to get a fastactionrod, don't you want a little damage to the fibers, which results in morestiffness? Aren't we really trying to find the balance point? I think thatheat treating to 350* or certainly 375* does cause a bit of brittleness,but the spine comes up too. If you get good life from a rod (how manytreated this way are out there - thousands?) and a good action, does thedamage amount to anything? Jim from caneman@clnk.com Tue Jul 10 09:18:16 2001 f6AEIFZ13032 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Shipping To Japan Joe,I've sent several rods that direction and always use US Mail. I shipAir Mail insured and it usually takes between 4 and 7 days for a rod to getto Japan. Insurance is more expensive, but service is dependable. I alwayspack the rod tubes inside Sch. 40 PVC to ship. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Shipping To Japan Does any one know the best and cheapest way to ship rods to Japan? Alsodoesanyone know what EMS postal sevice is? T.I.A Joseph A Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith RdPortageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 from BarbRain@aol.com Tue Jul 10 09:23:10 2001 f6AEN9Z13319 Subject: Re: Heat treating Patrick.Coffey@pss.boeing.com, stuart.rod@gmx.de,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Food for thought: A couple of years ago I heat treated a batch of bamboo in my convection oven for 2 hours at @ 250, an additional hour at 325 and then because the color was not dark enough, another hour at 400. Thetemperatures were verified with a probe type thermometer. Needless to say, the color of the bamboo was a very deep brown such as French Walnut. The strips wereglued as a nodeless 5" 4wt. The attempt to spiral the rod was a failure becausethe jig allowed about half the rod to unwind before the Epon set. One day when a non-believer questioned the strength of bamboo, I grabbed the 5" section and bent it into a full circle. The tip touched the butt momentarily! It not only did not break but the next day it was stright. Encouraged I sanded it to a round shape to hide the partiol twist and taped some guides on for a trial cast. It really was A-OK. The rod was finished with salvage components and givin to a friend who fishes it often. Since that time several rods were built using the 400 degree treatment to obtain a darker color. Alternating light and dark strips makes a nice contrast. There has not been a failure or a set. Another observation is that these rod are not wimps. Where does that leave me in this debate? I like the color. George Rainville Food for thought: my convection oven for 2 hours at @ 250, an additional hour at 325 andthen because the color was not dark enough, another hour at 400. Thetemperatures were verified with a probe type thermometer. Needless to say, thecolor of the bamboo was a very deep brown such as French Walnut. The stripswere glued as a nodeless 5" 4wt. The attempt to spiral the rod was a failurebecause the jig allowed about half the rod to unwind before the Epon set. One daywhen a non-believer questioned the strength of bamboo, I grabbed the 5"section and bent it into a full circle. The tip touched the butt momentarily! It notonly did not break but the next day it was stright. Encouraged I sanded it toa round shape to hide the partiol twist and taped some guides on for atrial cast. It really was A-OK. The rod was finished with salvage componentsand givin to a friend who fishes it often. Since that time several rods were built using the 400 degree treatment to obtain a darker color.Alternating light and dark strips makes a nice contrast. There has not been afailure or a set. Another observation is that these rod are not wimps. Where doesthat leave me in this debate? I like the color. George Rainville from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Jul 10 09:50:30 2001 f6AEoTZ15134 Subject: Re:Shipping to Japan This is a multi-part message in MIME format. JoeI don't know if this helps, but I shipped a Restoration to Chinaonce. And I used the U.S. Post office. It wasn't cheap .with insurance it ran me $27.00 ( the rod was only insured for $300) But =it got to China within a week and I considered that fast . The guy wrote =me and said it arrived safely. Although I ship rods in PVC tubes. Maybe =that helps.Tony Miller Restoration to Chinaonce. And I used the U.S. Post = wasn't cheap .with insurance it ran me $27.00 ( the = PVC tubes. Maybe that helps.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from cmj@post11.tele.dk Tue Jul 10 10:44:09 2001 f6AFi8Z18022 +0200 Subject: Sv: Heat treating This is a multi-part message in MIME format. George wrote, Where does that leave me in this debate? I like the color. George = Well George, Ill tell You where it leaves You: Right there with the rest =of us who fordecades have made thousands of rods which were flamed, turned out to be =fast andsurely did not break when fished. Anyone who wants a report on the effects of flaming cane should read Don =Andersensreport on heattreating, of nov/dec 1990 issue of the Planing form. In =this he concludes, and without thepermission of Don (sory Don): Cane tempered with an open flame to a =medium browncolor seemed to be the best in all tests. Yep, thats what he found out doing oscillation and deflection tests. = So who is right, and who is wrong? I=B4ll be darned if I know. What I do =know is thati flame the cane because it makes the rod more steely, faster - simply abetter rod. Do I damage the cane? I dont know if damage is the right =word. I knowI change the properties of the cane, as it is flamed. Through that =change I believeit becomes a better rawmaterial for rodmaking. So did PHY and a score of =other rodmakers. So George, go on heattreating Your rods to your fancy. This is one =occasion where regards Carsten Jorgensen George wrote, = Where does that leave me in this = Well George, Ill tell You where it = Right there with the rest of us who fordecades have made thousands of rods= flamed, turned out to be fast andsurely did not break when =fished. Anyone who wants a report on the = cane should read Don Andersensreport on heattreating, of nov/dec1990 = the Planing form. In this he concludes, and without thepermission of Don (sory Don): Cane = open flame to a medium brown tests. Yep, thats what he found out doing = So who is right, and who is wrong? = if I know. What I do know is thati flame the cane because it makes the = steely, faster - simply abetter rod. Do I damage the cane? I = damage is the right word. I knowI change the properties of the cane, as= flamed. Through that change I believeit becomes a better rawmaterial for = did PHY and a score of other rodmakers. So George, go on heattreating Yourrods = fancy. This is one occasion wheregentlemen should not prefer blondes. = regards Carsten =Jorgensen from eamlee@email.msn.com Tue Jul 10 10:44:53 2001 f6AFipZ18104 Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:44:35 -0700 Subject: Oven Wiring With 24" Elements from GW FILETIME=[3892BCF0:01C10957] OK I'm still stumped. I bought 2 24" elements from Golden Witch and I am still unsure as to how towire them. Russ told me that he sold a number of these elements (24" micastrip heaters) and I am hoping that someone on the list has them too andcould tell me how they wired them. I'll lay out the specs again for those thet are not familiar; The elements are 24" long, 120V each and 750 watts. I bought a supposedlyuniversal thermostat for an I electric oven, I assume, and I noticed it israted for 240V. It also says on the t-stat, "17amp (non-ind) bake, and15amp(non-ind) Broil." It also has 6 leads coming from it, L1, L2, PL, BKE1,BRL2, COM3 and the temp probe. What wire goes where? The paperwork thatcomes with it is not fit for a layman, me, to figure out. What do Ido!!!!???? The folks at the appliance store look at me like I'm a schmuckand don't want to give me the time of day. To top it all off, my productionis halted until I make this oven and I would like to experiment with heattreating as all of the latest discussion has got me fired up. No punintended. Do I have the wrong t-stat? If the elements are rated at 120V and the t- statis rated at 240V, what circuit do I use? If the t-stat is wrong, which onedo I need? I'm sorry to take up the bandwidth, but I have tried to figurethis out using the resources I have at hand and I still got nadda. Pleasehelp me O' Great Authors of My Cane Rod Making-ness. TIA,Eamon Lee from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Tue Jul 10 10:45:32 2001 f6AFjVZ18260 IAA18957 IAA01936 (5.5.2650.21) stuart.rod@gmx.de,rodmakers ,"'Adam Vigil'" Subject: RE: Heat treating The only part of the cane that is damaged during planing and sanding is thesurface, same as working wood, the interior fibers are unaffected by this.When it is heated and bent or straightened it's not damaged as all we aredoing is relaxing the molecular bond between the power fibers and allowingthem to straighten out and then lock in their new position with out damagingthem. ---------- Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Heat treating Patrick, Good ole Walt, he would know. I agree rising the temp to much above 200*could be detrimental to the cane. The 225* used in my trial did not weakenthe cane in any way that a would matter to rod making and I doubtmicrospcopicall either. The test strips that were dry but not heat treatedbent to 75 to 85* for a 10" strip. In a very green culm, mine were not, theH20 leaving rapidly possibly would rupture the cells to a point it had anegative impact on the cane. This should be tested.I am not saying 200* isnt a good temp to use, it is just 225* also had nonegative impact. As to rupturing the cells in cane this can be true but Ispeculate that by the time the cane reaches 225* most of the moisturehasalready left. There is no rupturing of the pith or power fibres where theH20 exited at that temp. The cell walls are also damaged in cane when it is sanded, planned, flamed,bent, dried, glued, straightend, spliced and compressed. Through usingtests that are relative to the way the cane will be used an averagestandardwill start to appear. Are we damaging cane as we make rods? Yes we are!Butas long as it is within a certain parameter the cane is still functional forour purposes. As one member of the list so appropriatley pointed out " Iwill take all those damaged flamed cane rods off of everybodies hands!" When I did the heat treating trial it was to clarify to myself what wasactually needed to achieve an appropritate heat treatment. Basically Iwanted to clear away the opinions and get down to the facts. I found anaccepatable time an temp for heat treating but is it the most appropriate?I dont know, after a few more trials I think I will have more answers. WhatI do know for a fact is a varitey of heat treatments will result indifferant actions and characteristics for the same cane. Some of thoserodswill be "damaged" cellularly but will still be excellent functional fly rodsbecause their damage is within a range that is accepatable. Do not get me wrong I want cane with the least amount of damage possible.But part of being a creator of cane rods is we make decisions based uponwhat we wish as the end result. And the fact of the matter not all of usaregoing to end up wanting to use the exact same heat treatment due todifferant effects will be wanted. "Sometime you hurt the one you love" and so it seems it is no differant forcane. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Coffey, Patrick W 'AdamVigil' Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 11:11 AMSubject: RE: Heat treating Bamboo like wood looses 90% of it moisture through the end grain andusesmedullarie rays to transfer the moisture outward towards the enamel. Toslowdown the drying of wood/bamboo, the end grain is sealed and the materialsurface drys which prevents checking to a large extent. The violin shop Iworked at supplied wood to builders all over the world, we cut up green logsand air-dried the wood, as kiln drying cooked the life out of it. we sealedthe end grain with paraffin and paint thinner mix and just aboutcompletely> eliminated checking, I've done the same thing with my culms, and asidefromthe drying split they've hardly checked at all compare the the uncoatedculms. I talked to Walt Powell a few years ago and he told me that theyheat to 200 degree for a few hours to get the moisture out before theyraised the temp up to 350 by steps. They felt that if you heated aboveboiling temperature the moisture turned to steam and tended to rupturethecell walls and that by kee!!ping the temp below boiling that most of the moisture could be driven outwithout damaging the cells. I tried this on the last culm I heat treated themoisture ran out of the end grain, Bob Milward had came to the sameconclusion. ---------- Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Heat treating Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules and canexitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reaches itsboilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culm and exitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily through thetubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actually removing theenamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in fact remove thewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from the heat anditmayactually protect it from damage during the heat treating process.Whenitcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just above boiling,andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes to heattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350* andunderanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) gives theresultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Stuart Moultrie Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 12:23 AMSubject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last night andremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read last weekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at their ends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water to exitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterproof theculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treating andthen instead of having to force the water all the way along the stripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a test ofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be used andthiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundaries asstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findings thatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult for water totravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straightened itandpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transport abilitiesofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain placesbetweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rod later. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in the basementworking on a rod. Stuart from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Jul 10 10:55:58 2001 f6AFtvZ18932 10 Jul 2001 08:55:52 PDT Subject: Re: Sv: Heat treating So who is right, and who is wrong? i think we're all wrong! my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. i'm notmowing the yard, painting the house working the extrajob or doing any of the things an adult should beconcerned. i am assuming this probably applies to rodbuilding also. :-) timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Tue Jul 10 11:02:06 2001 f6AG25Z19388 JAA13330 JAA10352 (5.5.2650.21) "Coffey, Patrick W" ,stuart.rod@gmx.de,rodmakers ,"'Jim & Sallyann Freeman'" Subject: RE: Heat treating I'm like everybody else, I'm not crazy about blonde rods and just have toaccept what I'm doing to the medium to attain the results I want. I think fromwhat Bob talked to me about at corbette lake last year was being able to getthat result with as little fiber damage as possible. ---------- Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 4:57 AM rodmakersSubject: Re: Heat treating Guys, Don't we want a little damage? I mean, if you're trying to get a fast actionrod, don't you want a little damage to the fibers, which results in morestiffness? Aren't we really trying to find the balance point? I think thatheat treating to 350* or certainly 375* does cause a bit of brittleness,but the spine comes up too. If you get good life from a rod (how manytreated this way are out there - thousands?) and a good action, does thedamage amount to anything? Jim----- Original Message -----From: Adam Vigil Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 4:39 PMSubject: Re: Heat treating Patrick, Good ole Walt, he would know. I agree rising the temp to much above200*could be detrimental to the cane. The 225* used in my trial did notweakenthe cane in any way that a would matter to rod making and I doubtmicrospcopicall either. The test strips that were dry but not heattreatedbent to 75 to 85* for a 10" strip. In a very green culm, mine were not,theH20 leaving rapidly possibly would rupture the cells to a point it had anegative impact on the cane. This should be tested.I am not saying 200* isnt a good temp to use, it is just 225* also had nonegative impact. As to rupturing the cells in cane this can be true but Ispeculate that by the time the cane reaches 225* most of the moisturehasalready left. There is no rupturing of the pith or power fibres where theH20 exited at that temp. The cell walls are also damaged in cane when it is sanded, planned,flamed,bent, dried, glued, straightend, spliced and compressed. Through usingtests that are relative to the way the cane will be used an averagestandardwill start to appear. Are we damaging cane as we make rods? Yes weare!Butas long as it is within a certain parameter the cane is still functionalforour purposes. As one member of the list so appropriatley pointed out " Iwill take all those damaged flamed cane rods off of everybodies hands!" When I did the heat treating trial it was to clarify to myself what wasactually needed to achieve an appropritate heat treatment. Basically Iwanted to clear away the opinions and get down to the facts. I found anaccepatable time an temp for heat treating but is it the mostappropriate?I dont know, after a few more trials I think I will have more answers.WhatI do know for a fact is a varitey of heat treatments will result indifferant actions and characteristics for the same cane. Some of thoserodswill be "damaged" cellularly but will still be excellent functional flyrodsbecause their damage is within a range that is accepatable. Do not get me wrong I want cane with the least amount of damagepossible.But part of being a creator of cane rods is we make decisions based uponwhat we wish as the end result. And the fact of the matter not all of usaregoing to end up wanting to use the exact same heat treatment due todifferant effects will be wanted. "Sometime you hurt the one you love" and so it seems it is no differantforcane. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----> From: Coffey, Patrick W 'AdamVigil' Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 11:11 AMSubject: RE: Heat treating Bamboo like wood looses 90% of it moisture through the end grain andusesmedullarie rays to transfer the moisture outward towards the enamel.Toslowdown the drying of wood/bamboo, the end grain is sealed and thematerialsurface drys which prevents checking to a large extent. The violin shop Iworked at supplied wood to builders all over the world, we cut up greenlogsand air-dried the wood, as kiln drying cooked the life out of it. wesealedthe end grain with paraffin and paint thinner mix and just aboutcompletelyeliminated checking, I've done the same thing with my culms, and asidefromthe drying split they've hardly checked at all compare the the uncoatedculms. I talked to Walt Powell a few years ago and he told me that theyheat to 200 degree for a few hours to get the moisture out before theyraised the temp up to 350 by steps. They felt that if you heated aboveboiling temperature the moisture turned to steam and tended to rupturethecell walls and that by kee!!ping the temp below boiling that most of the moisture could be drivenoutwithout damaging the cells. I tried this on the last culm I heat treatedthemoisture ran out of the end grain, Bob Milward had came to the sameconclusion. ---------- Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Heat treating Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules and canexitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reaches itsboilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culm andexitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily through thetubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actually removingtheenamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in fact removethewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from the heatanditmayactually protect it from damage during the heat treating process.Whenitcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just above boiling,andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes to heattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350* andunderanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) gives theresultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Stuart Moultrie Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 12:23 AMSubject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last night andremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read lastweekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at theirends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water toexitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterprooftheculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treatingandthen instead of having to force the water all the way along thestripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a test ofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be used and> thiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundaries asstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findings thatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult for water totravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straightened itandpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transportabilitiesofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain placesbetweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rodlater. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in the basementworking on a rod. Stuart from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Jul 10 11:02:15 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f6AG2EZ19427 (5.5.2653.19) cmj@post11.tele.dk,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Sv: Heat treating I hope he didn't instill that attitude into his daughter! -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Sv: Heat treating So who is right, and who is wrong? i think we're all wrong! my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. i'm notmowing the yard, painting the house working the extrajob or doing any of the things an adult should beconcerned. i am assuming this probably applies to rodbuilding also. :-) timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from Canerods@aol.com Tue Jul 10 11:43:08 2001 f6AGh7Z21214 Subject: Rodmakers Gathering All, Plan on attending the 2001 Great Western Rodmakers Gathering Is Bishop,CA during the weekend of October 20th & 21st. I think most people will also be there on the 19th. Chuck Irvine will again host the group at his workshop and a small fee of $10 will be collected to cover soft drinks and other expenses. If you can make please send an email to me at: Greatwestern2001@aol.com Updated information will be posted at: http://hometown.aol.com/greatwestern2001/index.html Don Burns All, Plan on attending the 2001 Great Western Rodmakers Gathering IsBishop, CA during the weekend of October 20th & 21st. I think most peoplewill also be there on the 19th. Chuck Irvine will again host the group at his workshop and a small fee of$10 will be collected to cover soft drinks and other expenses. If you can make please send an email to me at: http://hometown.aol.com/greatwestern2001/index.html Don Burns from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Tue Jul 10 13:28:11 2001 f6AISAZ24580 Subject: Re: Oven Wiring With 24" Elements from GW Eamon,If you have a continuity tester, attach a test lead to the Tstat lead L1"attach the other test lead to Tstat lead "BKE" set the Tstat at"off"....when you you raise the Tstat temp setting you should readcontinuity...if so...connect your power lead to L1 and BKE1 to your stripheaters, connect your strip heater neutral terminal to the neutral in yourpower source. Cap/tape all remaining tstat leads. losey----- Original Message ----- Subject: Oven Wiring With 24" Elements from GW OK I'm still stumped. I bought 2 24" elements from Golden Witch and I am still unsure as to howtowire them. Russ told me that he sold a number of these elements (24"micastrip heaters) and I am hoping that someone on the list has them too andcould tell me how they wired them. I'll lay out the specs again for those thet are not familiar; The elements are 24" long, 120V each and 750 watts. I bought asupposedlyuniversal thermostat for an I electric oven, I assume, and I noticed it israted for 240V. It also says on the t-stat, "17amp (non-ind) bake, and15amp(non-ind) Broil." It also has 6 leads coming from it, L1, L2, PL, BKE1,BRL2, COM3 and the temp probe. What wire goes where? The paperworkthatcomes with it is not fit for a layman, me, to figure out. What do Ido!!!!???? The folks at the appliance store look at me like I'm a schmuckand don't want to give me the time of day. To top it all off, myproductionis halted until I make this oven and I would like to experiment with heattreating as all of the latest discussion has got me fired up. No punintended. Do I have the wrong t-stat? If the elements are rated at 120V and thet- statis rated at 240V, what circuit do I use? If the t-stat is wrong, which onedo I need? I'm sorry to take up the bandwidth, but I have tried to figurethis out using the resources I have at hand and I still got nadda. Pleasehelp me O' Great Authors of My Cane Rod Making-ness. TIA,Eamon Lee from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Jul 10 13:49:28 2001 f6AInRZ25626 LAA05722; Subject: Re: Heat treating This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Carsten, My point exactly. It is one thing to say the cane is damaged and another =to say it is not desired in a fly rod. By manipulating the =characteristics of a fly rod we achieve what we desire. Even if it mean =putting a torch to it. Adam Vigil Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 8:48 AMSubject: Sv: Heat treating George wrote, Where does that leave me in this debate? I like the color. George = Well George, Ill tell You where it leaves You: Right there with the =rest of us who fordecades have made thousands of rods which were flamed, turned out to =be fast andsurely did not break when fished. Anyone who wants a report on the effects of flaming cane should read =Don Andersensreport on heattreating, of nov/dec 1990 issue of the Planing form. In =this he concludes, and without thepermission of Don (sory Don): Cane tempered with an open flame to a =medium browncolor seemed to be the best in all tests. Yep, thats what he found out doing oscillation and deflection tests. = So who is right, and who is wrong? I=B4ll be darned if I know. What I =do know is thati flame the cane because it makes the rod more steely, faster - simply =abetter rod. Do I damage the cane? I dont know if damage is the right =word. I knowI change the properties of the cane, as it is flamed. Through that =change I believeit becomes a better rawmaterial for rodmaking. So did PHY and a score =of other rodmakers. So George, go on heattreating Your rods to your fancy. This is one =occasion where regards Carsten Jorgensen Carsten, My point exactly. It is one thing to = is damaged and another to say it is not desired in a fly rod. By = the characteristics of a fly rod we achieve what we desire. Even if it = putting a torch to it. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- J=F8rgensen Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 = AMSubject: Sv: Heat =treating George wrote, = Where does that leave me in this = Well George, Ill tell You where it = Right there with the rest of us who fordecades have made thousands of rods= flamed, turned out to be fast andsurely did not break when =fished. Anyone who wants a report on the = flaming cane should read Don Andersensreport on heattreating, of nov/dec = the Planing form. In this he concludes, and without thepermission of Don (sory Don): Cane = an open flame to a medium brown tests. Yep, thats what he found out doing = So who is right, and who is wrong? = if I know. What I do know is thati flame the cane because it makes the= steely, faster - simply abetter rod. Do I damage the cane? I = damage is the right word. I knowI change the properties of the cane, = flamed. Through that change I believeit becomes a better rawmaterial for = did PHY and a score of other rodmakers. So George, go on heattreating Your = fancy. This is one occasion wheregentlemen should not prefer regards Jorgensen from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Jul 10 13:49:29 2001 f6AInSZ25631 LAA05335; , , Subject: Re: Heat treating This is a multi-part message in MIME format. George, I like that story. It makes a good point. While the strips may have =broken indivdually as a rod with glue, taper and structural =reinforcement it survived. Adam Vigil Patrick.Coffey@pss.boeing.com ; stuart.rod@gmx.de ; = Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 7:22 AMSubject: Re: Heat treating Food for thought: A couple of years ago I heat treated a batch of = my convection oven for 2 hours at @ 250, an additional hour at 325 and = because the color was not dark enough, another hour at 400. The = were verified with a probe type thermometer. Needless to say, the = the bamboo was a very deep brown such as French Walnut. The strips = as a nodeless 5" 4wt. The attempt to spiral the rod was a failure = jig allowed about half the rod to unwind before the Epon set. One day = non-believer questioned the strength of bamboo, I grabbed the 5" = bent it into a full circle. The tip touched the butt momentarily! It = did not break but the next day it was stright. Encouraged I sanded it = round shape to hide the partiol twist and taped some guides on for a = cast. It really was A-OK. The rod was finished with salvage components = givin to a friend who fishes it often. Since that time several rods = built using the 400 degree treatment to obtain a darker color. = light and dark strips makes a nice contrast. There has not been a = a set. Another observation is that these rod are not wimps. Where does = I like that story. It makes a good = strips may have broken indivdually as a rod with glue, taper and = reinforcement it survived. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 = AMSubject: Re: Heat =treatingFood for= convection oven for 2 hours at @ 250, an additional hour at 325 and = temperatures were verified with a probe type thermometer. Needless= the color of the bamboo was a very deep brown such as French = strips were glued as a nodeless 5" 4wt. The attempt to spiral the = a failure because the jig allowed about half the rod to unwind = Epon set. One day when a non-believer questioned the strength of = grabbed the 5" section and bent it into a full circle. The tip = butt momentarily! It not only did not break but the next day it = stright. Encouraged I sanded it to a round shape to hide the = and taped some guides on for a trial cast. It really was A-OK. The = finished with salvage components and givin to a friend who fishes = often. Since that time several rods were built using the 400 = treatment to obtain a darker color. Alternating light and dark = makes a nice contrast. There has not been a failure or a set. = observation is that these rod are not wimps. Where does that leave = this debate? I like the color. George Rainville = from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Jul 10 13:49:42 2001 f6AInfZ25682 LAA05871; ,"rodmakers" Subject: Re: Heat treating Patrick, You are right. But by removing the natural moisture from the cane it bydefinition has been damaged. The cane is dead. All damage is not adverse attention microscopically we get tunnel vision and lose what we are tryingto achieve macroscopically. Best Regards, Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- ;rodmakers ; 'Adam Vigil' Subject: RE: Heat treating The only part of the cane that is damaged during planing and sanding isthe surface, same as working wood, the interior fibers are unaffected bythis. When it is heated and bent or straightened it's not damaged as all weare doing is relaxing the molecular bond between the power fibers andallowing them to straighten out and then lock in their new position with outdamaging them. ---------- Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Heat treating Patrick, Good ole Walt, he would know. I agree rising the temp to much above200*could be detrimental to the cane. The 225* used in my trial did notweakenthe cane in any way that a would matter to rod making and I doubtmicrospcopicall either. The test strips that were dry but not heattreatedbent to 75 to 85* for a 10" strip. In a very green culm, mine were not,theH20 leaving rapidly possibly would rupture the cells to a point it had anegative impact on the cane. This should be tested.I am not saying 200* isnt a good temp to use, it is just 225* also hadnonegative impact. As to rupturing the cells in cane this can be true butIspeculate that by the time the cane reaches 225* most of the moisturehasalready left. There is no rupturing of the pith or power fibres wheretheH20 exited at that temp. The cell walls are also damaged in cane when it is sanded, planned,flamed,bent, dried, glued, straightend, spliced and compressed. Through usingtests that are relative to the way the cane will be used an averagestandardwill start to appear. Are we damaging cane as we make rods? Yes weare!Butas long as it is within a certain parameter the cane is still functionalforour purposes. As one member of the list so appropriatley pointed out " Iwill take all those damaged flamed cane rods off of everybodies hands!" When I did the heat treating trial it was to clarify to myself what wasactually needed to achieve an appropritate heat treatment. Basically Iwanted to clear away the opinions and get down to the facts. I found anaccepatable time an temp for heat treating but is it the mostappropriate?I dont know, after a few more trials I think I will have more answers.WhatI do know for a fact is a varitey of heat treatments will result indifferant actions and characteristics for the same cane. Some of thoserodswill be "damaged" cellularly but will still be excellent functional flyrodsbecause their damage is within a range that is accepatable. Do not get me wrong I want cane with the least amount of damagepossible.But part of being a creator of cane rods is we make decisions based uponwhat we wish as the end result. And the fact of the matter not all of usaregoing to end up wanting to use the exact same heat treatment due todifferant effects will be wanted. "Sometime you hurt the one you love" and so it seems it is no differantforcane. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Coffey, Patrick W 'AdamVigil' Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 11:11 AMSubject: RE: Heat treating Bamboo like wood looses 90% of it moisture through the end grain andusesmedullarie rays to transfer the moisture outward towards the enamel.Toslowdown the drying of wood/bamboo, the end grain is sealed and thematerialsurface drys which prevents checking to a large extent. The violin shopIworked at supplied wood to builders all over the world, we cut up greenlogsand air-dried the wood, as kiln drying cooked the life out of it. wesealedthe end grain with paraffin and paint thinner mix and just aboutcompletely>eliminated checking, I've done the same thing with my culms, and asidefromthe drying split they've hardly checked at all compare the the uncoatedculms. I talked to Walt Powell a few years ago and he told me that theyheat to 200 degree for a few hours to get the moisture out before theyraised the temp up to 350 by steps. They felt that if you heated aboveboiling temperature the moisture turned to steam and tended to rupturethecell walls and that by kee!!ping the temp below boiling that most of the moisture could be drivenoutwithout damaging the cells. I tried this on the last culm I heat treatedthemoisture ran out of the end grain, Bob Milward had came to the sameconclusion. ---------- Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Heat treating Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules and canexitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reaches itsboilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culm andexitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily through thetubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actually removingtheenamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in fact removethewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from the heatand itmayactually protect it from damage during the heat treating process.Whenitcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just aboveboiling,andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes to heattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350* andunderanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) gives theresultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Stuart Moultrie Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 12:23 AMSubject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last nightandremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read lastweekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at theirends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water toexitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterprooftheculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treatingandthen instead of having to force the water all the way along thestripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a testofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be used andthiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundaries asstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findingsthatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult for watertotravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straightened itandpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transportabilities ofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain placesbetweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rodlater. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in thebasementworking on a rod. Stuart from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Jul 10 13:55:39 2001 f6AItcZ26312 10 Jul 2001 11:55:38 PDT Subject: RE: Sv: Heat treating "rod 'akers" i ruined her too, now! :-) timothy --- "Kling, Barry W." wrote: I hope he didn't instill that attitude into hisdaughter! -----Original Message-----From: timothy troester Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Sv: Heat treating So who is right, and who is wrong? i think we're all wrong! my future father-in-lawtoldme the other day that a man who has time to fish isaman that isn't taking care of his business. i'm notmowing the yard, painting the house working theextrajob or doing any of the things an adult should beconcerned. i am assuming this probably applies torodbuilding also. :-) timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Jul 10 16:27:16 2001 f6ALRFZ03402 Subject: Marble slabs rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu OK here goes. I now have 6 marble slabs in my possession because they tore out some more today and gave them to me. Let me know if anyone wantsthem and Wayne if you are willing to come my way on the way to SRMG I will givethem to you to take down and give them away. GUYS these are TOTALLYFREE to anyone who wants them.Bret because they tore anyone wants them and Wayne if you are willing to come my way on the way to SRMG I willgive TOTALLY FREE to anyone who wants them.Bret from caneman@clnk.com Tue Jul 10 17:28:48 2001 f6AMSlZ04793 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) , Subject: Re: Sv: Heat treating my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. Personally, I feel a man who doesn't have time to fish, is taking care oftoo much and missing the pleasures in life... and without pleasure, what ISlife??? Are we put here to toil 24/7... Uh... for those of you of thatparticular faith, didn't Jesus take a day off and go fishing with John,Peter, and some of the other apostles... of course it stormed while theywere there, but even He went fishing and if I remember correctly, it relaxedhim so much that he fell asleep in one of the apostles McKenzie DriftBoats... sure hope the future father in law doesn't think he takes care ofbusiness better than Jesus! *S* Just kidding of course, and mean no insultor offense to anyone. Later,Bob my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. from fiveside@net-gate.com Tue Jul 10 18:11:53 2001 f6ANBqZ05599 Subject: Heat Treat & Toning To The List,What a wonderful discussion. Throw in a few other subjects like tapers andgeometry in a friendly, open way and you have what this list is all about.It's my secret hope that we never really get all these answers. This maywell be the greatest charm of our craft. We must appreciate and veryseriously consider the strong technical contributions of Milward, Phillips,Mauer, Histand, Garrison and others. But as very few of us will ever changethe way we are now doing things, the List motto should be: It Performs ForMe. Bill from channer@frontier.net Tue Jul 10 18:15:46 2001 f6ANFkZ05811 Subject: Re: Sv: Heat treating Tim;Your future father in law sounds like a barrel of laughs. Even Godrested on the 7th day.John timothy troester wrote: So who is right, and who is wrong? i think we're all wrong! my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. i'm notmowing the yard, painting the house working the extrajob or doing any of the things an adult should beconcerned. i am assuming this probably applies to rodbuilding also. :-) timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from lblan@provide.net Tue Jul 10 18:39:27 2001 f6ANdRZ06263 Subject: RE: Heat Treat & Toning Bill; "It Performs for Me" indeed! You are doing serious damage to mycampaign to gather up all those flawed, unworthy flamed rods! :) -----Original Message----- Subject: Heat Treat & Toning To The List,What a wonderful discussion. Throw in a few other subjects like tapers andgeometry in a friendly, open way and you have what this list is all about.It's my secret hope that we never really get all these answers. This maywell be the greatest charm of our craft. We must appreciate and veryseriously consider the strong technical contributions of Milward, Phillips,Mauer, Histand, Garrison and others. But as very few of us will ever changethe way we are now doing things, the List motto should be: It Performs ForMe. Bill from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Jul 10 18:39:57 2001 f6ANdtZ06348 Subject: Re: Sv: Heat treating I'd blame his parents. my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Windows NT crashed.I am the Blue Screen of Death.No one hears your screams. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from GordonKoppin@aol.com Tue Jul 10 18:40:25 2001 f6ANeOZ06447 2001 19:40:07 -0400 Subject: RE: Sv: Heat treating , Aamen to that thought. It may be a long time between fishing trips unlessyour fiancee has a differnt view or likes to fish. Good Luck Tim.Gordon In a message dated Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:02:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,"Kling, Barry W." writes: So who is right, and who is wrong? i think we're all wrong! my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. i'm notmowing the yard, painting the house working the extrajob or doing any of the things an adult should beconcerned. i am assuming this probably applies to rodbuilding also. :-) timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ..Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from mbiondo@wuacn.wustl.edu Tue Jul 10 18:40:39 2001 f6ANecZ06485 Subject: Re: Heat Treat & Toning Bill seez.. What a wonderful discussion. Throw in a few other subjects liketapers and geometry in a friendly, open way and you have what this list is all about. ...But as very few of us will ever change the way we are now doingthings, the List motto should be: It Performs For Me. Very well said Bill! Mike - It performs for me :-) - BiondoSt. Louis, MO from jojo@ipa.net Tue Jul 10 18:50:31 2001 f6ANoUZ07061 Subject: Re: Heat treating Jim,I chose your post at random from which to respond. Guys, Undoubtedly many rods have been made using different methods of heattreatment, and these rods have withstood years of use, however virtually allof the information to date has been by empirical observation, and most ofthe conventional wisdom is predicated upon this. There are many good pointsbeing made in this thread. Obviously, having merely flamed a culm does not a"bad" rod make, but is it the best rod that can be produced? Is it reallystiffer? Does it really have the flexibility to be a superb fly rod, or hasit been degraded to a point of compromise? We, myself included, tend tothink of cane that has been heat treated as being stronger, stiffer. This,arguably, is due to the moisture loss, but is it really stronger/stiffersimply because it was "heat treated"? I don't think so.Yes, I think we havecaused an irreversible change in the cane that results in the strip beingmore evenly stressed throughout its length, but I also think we are in error certain heat treatment method that it is somehow better for a fly rod. Ithink we all will be surprised at the results from John Long's GrandExperiment once he publishes the findings. Won't we, John?One of the things we seemed to have forgotten in this thread is one of lossof flexibility, and resilience. Ron Grantham's testing conclusively provesthat one particular heat treating regimen resulted in a loss of resilience.Don Andersen's tests proved much the same thing, over a wider range. Ibelieve it was Don who first attempted to make some sense of all this. Hisresults have been verified by several others. Adam Vigil's testing added anew twist to it all, the drying aspect. All of these tests have one thing incommon and that is they all tested only strips of bamboo. One of the thingsthat Bob Milward quickly found when doing his testing was that there wasconsiderable difference between strips and a rod section. Everythingchanged. For this he had to develop completely new criteria with which totest.What we are hoping to arrive at here is one of optimal condition, and thatis but part of the value of Milward's data. While there are many truths heldhere in this thread, it becomes a little hard to refute hard data with mereempiricism, and this thread should not degrade into a defense of thismethod, or that. How can anyone rationally argue that a flamed rod is betterthan one that has had an optimum heat treating/drying regimen, when wenowknow just how detrimental flaming is, or extreme heat treating for thatmatter? Yes, I do believe that it is all a matter of degrees, or how much istoo much, and of course no one seems to know what constitutes an optimumheat treating/drying regimen. And what about ammonia toning? The effectsofammonia on cellulose are well documented. Don't know that this differs forbamboo, or why it would. Bob Milward didn't write much in his book regardingthis as he didn't have the data with regards to bamboo in order to defendhis own observations, though those observations are right in line with thedata as it regards wood.We all build rods to suit ourselves, or at least I hope we do, andundoubtedly will continue to do so, and should, but at least we need torefrain from the temerity of supposing that "our" method is better when thedata clearly shows that it is not. Shouldn't we be attempting to improveupon the groundwork that has been laid, as Adam is doing, and leave thesuppositions of the past in the past? If the old ways prove to be best thenwe'll glean them, otherwise they should fade into the footnotes of bamboorodmaking. Sometimes I think that TA is right about "us" when he wrote oncethat we never discussed anything new, only a rehash of the same things thathave been done for the last 50 years, and that nobody had done anything newin bamboo rods in the last twenty years. Well, here's our chance. M-D Guys, Don't we want a little damage? I mean, if you're trying to get a fastactionrod, don't you want a little damage to the fibers, which results in morestiffness? Aren't we really trying to find the balance point? I think thatheat treating to 350* or certainly 375* does cause a bit of brittleness,but the spine comes up too. If you get good life from a rod (how manytreated this way are out there - thousands?) and a good action, does thedamage amount to anything? Jim----- Original Message -----From: Adam Vigil Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 4:39 PMSubject: Re: Heat treating Patrick, Good ole Walt, he would know. I agree rising the temp to much above200*could be detrimental to the cane. The 225* used in my trial did notweakenthe cane in any way that a would matter to rod making and I doubtmicrospcopicall either. The test strips that were dry but not heattreatedbent to 75 to 85* for a 10" strip. In a very green culm, mine were not,theH20 leaving rapidly possibly would rupture the cells to a point it had anegative impact on the cane. This should be tested.I am not saying 200* isnt a good temp to use, it is just 225* also hadnonegative impact. As to rupturing the cells in cane this can be true butIspeculate that by the time the cane reaches 225* most of the moisturehasalready left. There is no rupturing of the pith or power fibres wheretheH20 exited at that temp. The cell walls are also damaged in cane when it is sanded, planned,flamed,bent, dried, glued, straightend, spliced and compressed. Through usingtests that are relative to the way the cane will be used an averagestandardwill start to appear. Are we damaging cane as we make rods? Yes weare!Butas long as it is within a certain parameter the cane is still functionalforour purposes. As one member of the list so appropriatley pointed out " Iwill take all those damaged flamed cane rods off of everybodies hands!" When I did the heat treating trial it was to clarify to myself what wasactually needed to achieve an appropritate heat treatment. Basically Iwanted to clear away the opinions and get down to the facts. I found anaccepatable time an temp for heat treating but is it the mostappropriate?I dont know, after a few more trials I think I will have more answers.WhatI do know for a fact is a varitey of heat treatments will result indifferant actions and characteristics for the same cane. Some of thoserodswill be "damaged" cellularly but will still be excellent functional flyrodsbecause their damage is within a range that is accepatable. Do not get me wrong I want cane with the least amount of damagepossible.But part of being a creator of cane rods is we make decisions based uponwhat we wish as the end result. And the fact of the matter not all of usaregoing to end up wanting to use the exact same heat treatment due todifferant effects will be wanted. "Sometime you hurt the one you love" and so it seems it is no differantforcane. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Coffey, Patrick W 'AdamVigil' Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 11:11 AMSubject: RE: Heat treating Bamboo like wood looses 90% of it moisture through the end grain andusesmedullarie rays to transfer the moisture outward towards the enamel.Toslowdown the drying of wood/bamboo, the end grain is sealed and thematerialsurface drys which prevents checking to a large extent. The violin shopIworked at supplied wood to builders all over the world, we cut up greenlogsand air-dried the wood, as kiln drying cooked the life out of it. wesealedthe end grain with paraffin and paint thinner mix and just aboutcompletelyeliminated checking, I've done the same thing with my culms, and asidefromthe drying split they've hardly checked at all compare the the uncoatedculms. I talked to Walt Powell a few years ago and he told me that theyheat to 200 degree for a few hours to get the moisture out before theyraised the temp up to 350 by steps. They felt that if you heated aboveboiling temperature the moisture turned to steam and tended to rupturethecell walls and that by kee!!ping the temp below boiling that most of the moisture could be drivenoutwithout damaging the cells. I tried this on the last culm I heat treatedthemoisture ran out of the end grain, Bob Milward had came to the sameconclusion. ---------- Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Heat treating Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules and canexitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reaches itsboilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culm andexitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily through thetubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actually removingtheenamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in fact removethewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from the heatanditmayactually protect it from damage during the heat treating process.Whenitcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just aboveboiling,andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes to heattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350* andunderanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) gives theresultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Stuart Moultrie Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 12:23 AMSubject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last nightandremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read lastweekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at theirends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water toexitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterprooftheculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treatingandthen instead of having to force the water all the way along thestripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a testofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be used andthiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundaries asstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findingsthatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult for watertotravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straightened itandpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transportabilitiesofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain placesbetweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rodlater. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in thebasementworking on a rod. Stuart from splitcane@home.com Tue Jul 10 19:17:45 2001 f6B0HiZ07641 ;Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:17:38 -0700 Subject: Re: A question???? Hi All... Most mail programs have "rules" you can set to delete Spamautomatically...Mine is Outlook Express and under "tools", "message rules", "mail" then youcreate and name a "mail Rules" file. You can add key words from the Spamyoureceive like, "100% Free" "To Be Removed" and the such, words that wouldnotbe in your regular mail. As the Spam comes in I pick out key words fromthemto add to my "mail rules" file, after a week or so you will eliminate 99.9%of the Spam sent to you. Every once in a while I check my "Delete Mail" fileto see if there is anything interesting... Take Care, Dave ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: A question???? Shawn: I have noticed a considerable increase in spam lately, but I did make aboo-boo when I promoted my website with one of those "off the shelve"submission programs. It seems that this one (promising over 1000submissions) sent my information to these FFA sites (Free For All). Theonly thing to come out of it is constant spam from the owners of theseFFAsites. My gosh how many MLM people are there out there? Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life".----- Original Message -----From: "Shawn Pineo" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 4:19 PMSubject: A question???? Just curious, has anyone noticed a drastic upswing in the amount ofspam theyhave been receiving lately??? I have several e mail accounts that don'tseem to havechanged but this account I use pretty much just for the list and I haveseen morespam here in the past few weeks than I have ever gotten total to thistime.Shawn from Lazybee45@aol.com Tue Jul 10 19:34:51 2001 f6B0YpZ07977 Subject: Re: A question???? nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca,rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu In a message dated 7/9/01 5:13:45 PM Central Daylight Time, pmgoodwin@earthlink.net writes: HAH! in our area we have caller ID with the blocking function. If a person calls who has their number unavailable or blocked, it will say"you MUST mark from anglport@con2.com Tue Jul 10 19:38:25 2001 f6B0cOZ08176 Subject: Re: A question???? Thanks Dave,I bet you never find anything do you?This comes at a great time for me as my kids just gave me a cuttingedgeDell and I'm going to be using Outlook Express and such for the first time.I'd never been able to figure out how spam filters work. Your examples didthe trick.As for the discussion on heat treating, I just throw my cane in thefurnace and make a slurry of the ashes in Epon. Hey, it performs for me!!!!Seeya tomorrow Bill,Art At 05:55 PM 07/10/2001 -0600, Dave Collyer wrote:Hi All... Most mail programs have "rules" you can set to delete Spamautomatically...Mine is Outlook Express and under "tools", "message rules", "mail" then youcreate and name a "mail Rules" file. You can add key words from the Spamyoureceive like, "100% Free" "To Be Removed" and the such, words that wouldnotbe in your regular mail. As the Spam comes in I pick out key words fromthemto add to my "mail rules" file, after a week or so you will eliminate 99.9%of the Spam sent to you. Every once in a while I check my "Delete Mail" fileto see if there is anything interesting... Take Care, Dave ----- Original Message -----From: "Bamboo Joe" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 3:13 PMSubject: Re: A question???? Shawn: I have noticed a considerable increase in spam lately, but I did make aboo-boo when I promoted my website with one of those "off the shelve"submission programs. It seems that this one (promising over 1000submissions) sent my information to these FFA sites (Free For All). Theonly thing to come out of it is constant spam from the owners of theseFFAsites. My gosh how many MLM people are there out there? Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life".----- Original Message -----From: "Shawn Pineo" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 4:19 PMSubject: A question???? Just curious, has anyone noticed a drastic upswing in the amount ofspam theyhave been receiving lately??? I have several e mail accounts that don'tseem to havechanged but this account I use pretty much just for the list and I haveseen morespam here in the past few weeks than I have ever gotten total to thistime.Shawn from splitcane@home.com Tue Jul 10 19:40:36 2001 f6B0eZZ08372 ;Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:40:28 -0700 Subject: Re: ammonia toning This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi All... One think I have not read in this thread about "Ammonia =Toning" is using a strong tea on the cane to enhance the darking without =a lethal dose of ammonia, tea is high in tannin and will darken the cane =much faster with less ammonia... Any Feedback? Take Care, Dave Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 2:31 PMSubject: ammonia toning Looking for an alternate way to darken bamboo is great. But what = Do you remember all the hide glued items in the pyramids? Whats wrong = doing it the way it was originally done ? My rods aren't breaking from = I would like to see some one that is more knowledgeable than my self , = me what kind of chemical reaction is happening between the glues we = Hi All... One think I have not read in this thread = "Ammonia Toning" is using a strong tea on the cane to enhance the = without a lethal dose of ammonia, tea is high in tannin and will darken = much faster with less ammonia... Any Feedback? Take Care, Dave ----- Original Message ----- GRNMTRODS@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 =2:31 PMSubject: ammonia toningHELLO = Looking for an alternate way to darken bamboo is great. But = Do you remember all the hide glued items in the pyramids? = with doing it the way it was originally done ? My rods aren't = from flamming or heat treating. I would like to see some = is more knowledgeable than my self , tell me what kind of chemical = reaction is happening between the glues we are using and the = Wondering, Jim from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Jul 10 19:43:21 2001 f6B0hKZ08557 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: I have an idea! Here is what I'm working on guys and I ask only for your help. It was an have been slowly working away at that was recently re-ignited during aconversationwith Harry Boyd.I am going to try and build a collection of classic rod pictures. I realizethat I can't accomplish this over night, or on my own. I have a fair amountstartedThink of it.... a data base or CD rom that has pictures of classic (andcontemporary) rods and as much pertinent info as I can gather, organized bybuilder,type, and size.Here is what I want from everyone;1)Digital images of rods, 4x6 @ 300 dpi or more, preferably but notnecessarily (format doesn't really matter( jpeg, psd or bmp will be fine aslong asthey are PC, I manipulate images for a living) please include as much info aspossible about the rod and try to keep different angles of the same rodtogether so Ican group them accordingly. Don't worry about the file size, I have DSL anddon'tmind the wait.or2)Actual photos, any size. If you rather, send negatives or slides,(Icanmake prints and return the negs to you.3) Historical shots of famous people fishing, builders building, goodstories and so on. Once again, try to include as much pertinent info aspossible.4)Shots of decals on rods/bags/tubes5)other things you might think are useful to us, perhaps specific rodbuilding tools or a shot of you on your favorite stream with your favoritebamboorod, you or someone building a rod? This may take me some time,(this could be huge) but all that participatewill beamazed, I hope, at what we can put together as a collective. I will set a goalofnext year to do all this(I will TRY!!). What I figured is that when I am done I willburn everything to disk(s) and send them off to various rod gatherings fordistribution. The info could be used for tons of things, even Power Pointdemos atgatherings!Please make sure we are not breaking any copyright laws when sendingmephotos and if possible, give credit to the photographer :^)I am working on a few friends to bring their rods into my studio atwork tograb some good pictures as well. A friend here restores rods and is keepinghis eyesout for models(rods)!-Please put "rod photos" in the subject line if e mailing me pics:nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca -if snail mailing, please e mail me with "rod pics" in subject line priorto sending through the mail. I will be very careful with anything you send mebut Icannot be responsible for the postal service. That's why I encourage copiesbe sentinstead of originals unless you are very brave.Shawn Pineo,New Scotland Fly Rods,20 Melrose Cr.,Eastern Passage,Nova Scotia,Canada,B3G 1N6 If you would like to phone me, (902) 461-0510 but please remember I amin theeastern time zone.With all your help I hope to build a "virtual bamboo museum". Feel free togive me your opinions,TIA,Shawn from Troutgetter@aol.com Tue Jul 10 20:12:32 2001 f6B1CVZ09069 Subject: Re: Rodmakers Gathering Don,Thanks for the dates. I planning on going and will probably stay at the campground at Pleasant Valley on north side of the river. Thanks again,Mike Don,Thanks for the dates. I planning on going and will probably stay at the campground at Pleasant Valley on north side of the river. Thanks again,Mike from jczimny@dol.net Tue Jul 10 20:25:21 2001 f6B1PKZ09529 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: Heat Treat & Toning Any latin scholars out there who can make it sound classic? John Z Bill Fink wrote: To The List,What a wonderful discussion. Throw in a few other subjects like tapersandgeometry in a friendly, open way and you have what this list is all about.It's my secret hope that we never really get all these answers. This maywell be the greatest charm of our craft. We must appreciate and veryseriously consider the strong technical contributions of Milward, Phillips,Mauer, Histand, Garrison and others. But as very few of us will ever changethe way we are now doing things, the List motto should be: It Performs ForMe. Bill from jczimny@dol.net Tue Jul 10 20:30:13 2001 f6B1UCZ09766 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: ammonia toning Good idea. This is properly called a "mordant". I've used it onwood to no apparent adverse effect.John Z Dave Collyer wrote: Hi All... One think I have not read in this thread about"Ammonia Toning" is using a strong tea on the cane to enhancethe darking without a lethal dose of ammonia, tea is high intannin and will darken the cane much faster with lessammonia... Any Feedback? Take Care, Dave ----- Original Message -----From: GRNMTRODS@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 2:31 PMSubject: ammonia toningHELLO EVERYONE, Looking for an alternate way to darken bamboo isgreat. But what happens tothe glue after all this soaking ,fumming anddabbing? Do you remember all the hide glued items in thepyramids? Whats wrong withdoing it the way it was originally done ? My rodsaren't breaking fromflamming or heat treating. I would like to see some one that is moreknowledgeable than my self , tellme what kind of chemical reaction is happeningbetween the glues we are usingand the ammonia. Wondering,Jim from mrc@mars.plala.or.jp Tue Jul 10 20:30:19 2001 f6B1UIZ09771 Subject: Re: Shipping To Japan Hi Joseph san, Does any one know the best and cheapest way to ship rods to Japan? Alsodoesanyone know what EMS postal sevice is? T.I.A EMS is the service of government post office to deliver the parcel to thedestination, especially internationally. It stands for Express MailingService and is like UPS or FEDEX. Max from Dean_Burrill@mcafee.com Tue Jul 10 20:34:10 2001 f6B1Y9Z10173 Tue Jul 10 18:35:48 2001 -0700 (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Shipping To Japan I've used USPS International Express several times. A typical rod costsabout $25, gets there in 3 or 4 days, and that price includes the first $500of insurance. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Shipping To Japan Hi Joseph san, Does any one know the best and cheapest way to ship rods to Japan? Alsodoesanyone know what EMS postal sevice is? T.I.A EMS is the service of government post office to deliver the parcel to thedestination, especially internationally. It stands for Express MailingService and is like UPS or FEDEX. Max from ddeloach@pcisys.net Tue Jul 10 20:40:15 2001 f6B1eFZ10470 env- from (ddeloach@pcisys.net) Subject: Re: I have an idea! Great idea! I have a feww pics I will round up and send you. Don't forget tosurf ebay--lots of pics there of rods for sale. good luckDon ----- Original Message ----- Subject: I have an idea! Here is what I'm working on guys and I ask only for your help. It wasan idea Ihave been slowly working away at that was recently re-ignited during aconversationwith Harry Boyd.I am going to try and build a collection of classic rod pictures.I realizethat I can't accomplish this over night, or on my own. I have a fairamount startedThink of it.... a data base or CD rom that has pictures of classic(andcontemporary) rods and as much pertinent info as I can gather, organized type, and size.Here is what I want from everyone;1)Digital images of rods, 4x6 @ 300 dpi or more, preferably butnotnecessarily (format doesn't really matter( jpeg, psd or bmp will be fineas long asthey are PC, I manipulate images for a living) please include as much infoaspossible about the rod and try to keep different angles of the same rodtogether so Ican group them accordingly. Don't worry about the file size, I have DSLand don'tmind the wait.or2)Actual photos, any size. If you rather, send negatives orslides,(I canmake prints and return the negs to you.3) Historical shots of famous people fishing, buildersbuilding, goodstories and so on. Once again, try to include as much pertinent info aspossible.4)Shots of decals on rods/bags/tubes5)other things you might think are useful to us, perhapsspecific rodbuilding tools or a shot of you on your favorite stream with your favoritebamboorod, you or someone building a rod? This may take me some time,(this could be huge) but all thatparticipate will beamazed, I hope, at what we can put together as a collective. I will set agoal ofnext year to do all this(I will TRY!!). What I figured is that when I amdone I willburn everything to disk(s) and send them off to various rod gatherings fordistribution. The info could be used for tons of things, even Power Pointdemos atgatherings!Please make sure we are not breaking any copyright laws whensending mephotos and if possible, give credit to the photographer :^)I am working on a few friends to bring their rods into my studioat work tograb some good pictures as well. A friend here restores rods and iskeeping his eyesout for models(rods)!-Please put "rod photos" in the subject line if e mailing mepics:nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca -if snail mailing, please e mail me with "rod pics" in subjectline priorto sending through the mail. I will be very careful with anything you sendme but Icannot be responsible for the postal service. That's why I encouragecopies be sentinstead of originals unless you are very brave.Shawn Pineo,New Scotland Fly Rods,20 Melrose Cr.,Eastern Passage,Nova Scotia,Canada,B3G 1N6 If you would like to phone me, (902) 461-0510 but please remember Iam in theeastern time zone.With all your help I hope to build a "virtual bamboo museum". Feelfree togive me your opinions,TIA,Shawn from harms1@pa.net Tue Jul 10 20:52:45 2001 f6B1qiZ10964 ,, Subject: Re: Sv: Heat treating All, "A man who has time to fish is a man that isn't taking care of hisbusiness."Well, YEAH! Wouldn't that be the point? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Re: Sv: Heat treating my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. Personally, I feel a man who doesn't have time to fish, is taking care oftoo much and missing the pleasures in life... and without pleasure, whatISlife??? Are we put here to toil 24/7... Uh... for those of you of thatparticular faith, didn't Jesus take a day off and go fishing with John,Peter, and some of the other apostles... of course it stormed while theywere there, but even He went fishing and if I remember correctly, itrelaxedhim so much that he fell asleep in one of the apostles McKenzie DriftBoats... sure hope the future father in law doesn't think he takes care ofbusiness better than Jesus! *S* Just kidding of course, and mean noinsultor offense to anyone. Later,Bob my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. from Troutgetter@aol.com Tue Jul 10 20:55:30 2001 f6B1tUZ11204 Subject: Re: Metalworking Link In a message dated 7/9/2001 6:28:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jojo@ipa.net writes: Awsome!Mike In a message dated7/9/2001 6:28:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jojo@ipa.net writes: http://www.metalwork.0catch.com/list.htm Awsome!Mike from flyrod@pop.digisys.net Tue Jul 10 21:23:53 2001 f6B2NqZ11869 Subject: Re: (none) What the ? Jim from splitcane@home.com Tue Jul 10 21:24:23 2001 f6B2OMZ11940 ;Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:24:15 -0700 "Rodmakers" ,"Bill Hoy" Subject: Re: Heat treating Hi All... I look at heat treating cane like tempering steel, you have togive a little to get a little. There is no doubt that untreated or lowtemperature treated cane is more flexible, much as mild steel is softer andmore flexible. I do not plain with mild steel and I do not cast with awillow, so tempering is a must. Flaming cane to bring out the desired "life"and enhance the coloring has been an excepted and proven method for a longtime, as in life moderation is the answer... Take Care, Dave ----- Original Message ----- "BillHoy" Subject: Re: Heat treating Bill, The temperature of 225* is enough to drive off the water out of a culmanddry it. The test I ran were breakage and bending test. When the strip isdryed only at 225* the would not break until extreme pressure and bendingoccured. from rmoon@ida.net Tue Jul 10 21:33:33 2001 f6B2XWZ12296 Subject: Re: Heat treating Where everyone is going with this topic puzzles me, but I think that everyonehas the right slant. Heat treating , whatever it does to the cane chemicallyand physically, does impart a more responsive feel. But I am reminded of theemphasis that our colleagues who make carbon fiber rods place on modulusofelasticity. It seems that each year each manufacturer tries to increase theMOEof his rods. Now you all know that a rod must bend to project the line. Thepoint where it fails to bend is the end of its usefulness in fly casting. Iremember the first 2 wt Orvis (thank heaven withdrawn almost as fast as itwasconceived.) I ever cast was at the Orvis Shop in San Francisco. It hadattainedthe epitome of MOE and after exaggerated double hauling I was able to gettheline out about 30 ft. But I was exhausted in doing so.Cane can never achieve the MOE that graphite can, and I don't think that weshould go too far in making rods stiffer and stiffer. A slow parabolic tapercan cast the line with more velocity and with LESS effort than your ultrastiffburned rods. I like tham blonde and I like them flamed and I like themtemperedjust up to the color change point. The point is: what do I want from that rod? I certainly have no wish to denigrate the efforts of any rodmaker to try tocometo grips with heat treating, but I question if there is any one answer.Certainly there are empirical results of testing that are in opposition, but Ihave a sneaking suspicion that there may truth on each side. Ralph from rmoon@ida.net Tue Jul 10 22:02:29 2001 f6B32SZ12833 Subject: Re: I have an idea! Shawn Pineo wrote: Here is what I'm working on guys and I ask only for your help. It was an have been slowly working away at that was recently re-ignited during aconversationwith Harry Boyd.I am going to try and build a collection of classic rod pictures. Irealizethat I can't accomplish this over night, or on my own. I have a fair amountstartedThink of it.... a data base or CD rom that has pictures of classic (andcontemporary) rods and as much pertinent info as I can gather, organized type, and size.Here is what I want from everyone;1)Digital images of rods, 4x6 @ 300 dpi or more, preferably but notnecessarily (format doesn't really matter( jpeg, psd or bmp will be fine aslong asthey are PC, I manipulate images for a living) please include as much info aspossible about the rod and try to keep different angles of the same rodtogether so Ican group them accordingly. Don't worry about the file size, I have DSL anddon'tmind the wait.or2)Actual photos, any size. If you rather, send negatives or slides,(Icanmake prints and return the negs to you.3) Historical shots of famous people fishing, builders building, goodstories and so on. Once again, try to include as much pertinent info aspossible.4)Shots of decals on rods/bags/tubes5)other things you might think are useful to us, perhaps specificrodbuilding tools or a shot of you on your favorite stream with your favoritebamboorod, you or someone building a rod? This may take me some time,(this could be huge) but all that participatewill beamazed, I hope, at what we can put together as a collective. I will set a goalofnext year to do all this(I will TRY!!). What I figured is that when I am done Iwillburn everything to disk(s) and send them off to various rod gatherings fordistribution. The info could be used for tons of things, even Power Pointdemos atgatherings!Please make sure we are not breaking any copyright laws whensending mephotos and if possible, give credit to the photographer :^)I am working on a few friends to bring their rods into my studio atwork tograb some good pictures as well. A friend here restores rods and iskeeping his eyesout for models(rods)!-Please put "rod photos" in the subject line if e mailing me pics:nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca -if snail mailing, please e mail me with "rod pics" in subject line priorto sending through the mail. I will be very careful with anything you sendme but Icannot be responsible for the postal service. That's why I encourage copiesbe sentinstead of originals unless you are very brave.Shawn Pineo,New Scotland Fly Rods,20 Melrose Cr.,Eastern Passage,Nova Scotia,Canada,B3G 1N6 If you would like to phone me, (902) 461-0510 but please remember Iam in theeastern time zone.With all your help I hope to build a "virtual bamboo museum". Feel freetogive me your opinions,TIA,Shawn from rmoon@ida.net Tue Jul 10 22:10:23 2001 f6B3AMZ13163 Subject: Re: I have an idea! Sorry Shawn and all, I didn't mean to just forward Shawn's message to thelist. I merelywish to applaud his action and hope that he gets some help. It is a Herculeantask. Somestuff coming from me Shawn Ralph from richjez@enteract.com Tue Jul 10 22:10:29 2001 f6B3ATZ13182 nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca, rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Subject: Re: A question???? --=====================_5282435==_.ALT The only trouble with caller Id blocking is that professionals like teachers, some police, i am a school social worker, doctors, and others at times work form home. We don't necessary want our home numbers availableto clients so we block them. Do you want those calls?Not trying to flams, just another perspective.Rich Jezioro At 07:34 PM 7/10/01, Lazybee45@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 7/9/01 5:13:45 PM Central Daylight Time,pmgoodwin@earthlink.net writes: time trying to sell you new windows, siding or the latest and greatestcredit card. Paul >> HAH! in our area we have caller ID with the blocking function. If a personcalls who has their number unavailable or blocked, it will say"you MUST mark *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro@/||/____/||_________________________________________||/\))):> > ))):> --=====================_5282435==_.ALT The only trouble with caller Id blocking is thatprofessionals like teachers, some police, i am a school social worker,doctors, and others at times work form home. We don't necessary want our those calls?Not trying to flams, just another perspective.Rich Jezioro At 07:34 PM 7/10/01, Lazybee45@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 7/9/01 5:13:45 PMCentralDaylight Time, pmgoodwin@earthlink.net writes: << it's directly proportional to the number of phone calls you getat dinner greatest calls who has their number unavailable or blocked, it will say"youMUST thing I think!mark *_____________ ___________________) @/ ||/ ____/||_________________________________________ p;/\ ; bsp; --=====================_5282435==_.ALT-- from jojo@ipa.net Tue Jul 10 22:12:55 2001 f6B3CtZ13441 Subject: Re: Heat treating And I think you are correct. When wood is brought into the kiln there is nospecific regimen. Each loading is constantly monitored and adjustments aremadeas necessary. Of course, they are using sophisticated, multi-million dollarkilns, and this becomes a little problematic for the lowly bamboo rodmaker.The point is that nothing is ever the same, yet we seem to be relegated todoing the best we can with what we have, and I don't know at all that it isnecessary to be *that* precise. Each culm is different, this we know, but wetreat them the same when it comes to the heat treating regimen. Does itmatter? Who knows?Along the vein of wood kilns: When the load is first introduced into thekiln, the first thing done is not to crank up the heat, but to saturate thewood with moisture at 100% RH for several days. Isn't this similar to whatthose of us who soak our strips do? M-D From: "Ralph Moon" I certainly have no wish to denigrate the efforts of any rodmaker to tryto cometo grips with heat treating, but I question if there is any one answer.Certainly there are empirical results of testing that are in opposition,but I have a sneaking suspicion that there may truth on each side. Ralph from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Jul 10 22:27:40 2001 f6B3RdZ13864 UAA12838; Subject: Re: Heat treating M-D, Bingo.This topic has been enjoyable and the friendly discussion is stimulating.Lets keep the ball rolling. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Heat treating Jim,I chose your post at random from which to respond. Guys, Undoubtedly many rods have been made using different methods of heattreatment, and these rods have withstood years of use, however virtuallyallof the information to date has been by empirical observation, and most ofthe conventional wisdom is predicated upon this. There are many goodpointsbeing made in this thread. Obviously, having merely flamed a culm does nota"bad" rod make, but is it the best rod that can be produced? Is it reallystiffer? Does it really have the flexibility to be a superb fly rod, orhasit been degraded to a point of compromise? We, myself included, tend tothink of cane that has been heat treated as being stronger, stiffer. This,arguably, is due to the moisture loss, but is it really stronger/stiffersimply because it was "heat treated"? I don't think so.Yes, I think wehavecaused an irreversible change in the cane that results in the strip beingmore evenly stressed throughout its length, but I also think we are inerror certain heat treatment method that it is somehow better for a fly rod. Ithink we all will be surprised at the results from John Long's GrandExperiment once he publishes the findings. Won't we, John?One of the things we seemed to have forgotten in this thread is one oflossof flexibility, and resilience. Ron Grantham's testing conclusively provesthat one particular heat treating regimen resulted in a loss ofresilience.Don Andersen's tests proved much the same thing, over a wider range. Ibelieve it was Don who first attempted to make some sense of all this. Hisresults have been verified by several others. Adam Vigil's testing added anew twist to it all, the drying aspect. All of these tests have one thingincommon and that is they all tested only strips of bamboo. One of thethingsthat Bob Milward quickly found when doing his testing was that there wasconsiderable difference between strips and a rod section. Everythingchanged. For this he had to develop completely new criteria with which totest.What we are hoping to arrive at here is one of optimal condition, and thatis but part of the value of Milward's data. While there are many truthsheldhere in this thread, it becomes a little hard to refute hard data withmereempiricism, and this thread should not degrade into a defense of thismethod, or that. How can anyone rationally argue that a flamed rod isbetterthan one that has had an optimum heat treating/drying regimen, when wenowknow just how detrimental flaming is, or extreme heat treating for thatmatter? Yes, I do believe that it is all a matter of degrees, or how muchistoo much, and of course no one seems to know what constitutes anoptimumheat treating/drying regimen. And what about ammonia toning? Theeffectsofammonia on cellulose are well documented. Don't know that this differs forbamboo, or why it would. Bob Milward didn't write much in his bookregardingthis as he didn't have the data with regards to bamboo in order to defendhis own observations, though those observations are right in line with thedata as it regards wood.We all build rods to suit ourselves, or at least I hope we do, andundoubtedly will continue to do so, and should, but at least we need torefrain from the temerity of supposing that "our" method is better whenthedata clearly shows that it is not. Shouldn't we be attempting to improveupon the groundwork that has been laid, as Adam is doing, and leave thesuppositions of the past in the past? If the old ways prove to be bestthenwe'll glean them, otherwise they should fade into the footnotes of bamboorodmaking. Sometimes I think that TA is right about "us" when he wroteoncethat we never discussed anything new, only a rehash of the same thingsthathave been done for the last 50 years, and that nobody had done anythingnewin bamboo rods in the last twenty years. Well, here's our chance. M-D From: "Jim & Sallyann Freeman" Guys, Don't we want a little damage? I mean, if you're trying to get a fastactionrod, don't you want a little damage to the fibers, which results in morestiffness? Aren't we really trying to find the balance point? I thinkthatheat treating to 350* or certainly 375* does cause a bit ofbrittleness,but the spine comes up too. If you get good life from a rod (how manytreated this way are out there - thousands?) and a good action, does thedamage amount to anything? Jim----- Original Message -----From: Adam Vigil rodmakers Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 4:39 PMSubject: Re: Heat treating Patrick, Good ole Walt, he would know. I agree rising the temp to much above200*could be detrimental to the cane. The 225* used in my trial did notweakenthe cane in any way that a would matter to rod making and I doubtmicrospcopicall either. The test strips that were dry but not heattreatedbent to 75 to 85* for a 10" strip. In a very green culm, mine werenot,theH20 leaving rapidly possibly would rupture the cells to a point it hadanegative impact on the cane. This should be tested.I am not saying 200* isnt a good temp to use, it is just 225* also hadnonegative impact. As to rupturing the cells in cane this can be truebutIspeculate that by the time the cane reaches 225* most of themoisturehasalready left. There is no rupturing of the pith or power fibres wheretheH20 exited at that temp. The cell walls are also damaged in cane when it is sanded, planned,flamed,bent, dried, glued, straightend, spliced and compressed. Throughusingtests that are relative to the way the cane will be used an averagestandardwill start to appear. Are we damaging cane as we make rods? Yes weare!Butas long as it is within a certain parameter the cane is stillfunctionalforour purposes. As one member of the list so appropriatley pointed out "Iwill take all those damaged flamed cane rods off of everybodieshands!" When I did the heat treating trial it was to clarify to myself whatwasactually needed to achieve an appropritate heat treatment. BasicallyIwanted to clear away the opinions and get down to the facts. I foundanaccepatable time an temp for heat treating but is it the mostappropriate?I dont know, after a few more trials I think I will have more answers.WhatI do know for a fact is a varitey of heat treatments will result indifferant actions and characteristics for the same cane. Some ofthoserodswill be "damaged" cellularly but will still be excellent functionalflyrodsbecause their damage is within a range that is accepatable. Do not get me wrong I want cane with the least amount of damagepossible.But part of being a creator of cane rods is we make decisions baseduponwhat we wish as the end result. And the fact of the matter not all ofusaregoing to end up wanting to use the exact same heat treatment due todifferant effects will be wanted. "Sometime you hurt the one you love" and so it seems it is nodifferantforcane. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Coffey, Patrick W 'AdamVigil' Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 11:11 AMSubject: RE: Heat treating Bamboo like wood looses 90% of it moisture through the end grainandusesmedullarie rays to transfer the moisture outward towards the enamel.Toslowdown the drying of wood/bamboo, the end grain is sealed and thematerialsurface drys which prevents checking to a large extent. The violinshopIworked at supplied wood to builders all over the world, we cut upgreenlogsand air-dried the wood, as kiln drying cooked the life out of it. wesealedthe end grain with paraffin and paint thinner mix and just aboutcompletelyeliminated checking, I've done the same thing with my culms, and asidefromthe drying split they've hardly checked at all compare the theuncoatedculms. I talked to Walt Powell a few years ago and he told me thattheyheat to 200 degree for a few hours to get the moisture out beforetheyraised the temp up to 350 by steps. They felt that if you heated aboveboiling temperature the moisture turned to steam and tended torupturethecell walls and that by kee!!ping the temp below boiling that most of the moisture could bedrivenoutwithout damaging the cells. I tried this on the last culm I heattreatedthemoisture ran out of the end grain, Bob Milward had came to the sameconclusion. ---------- Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Heat treating Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules and canexitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reaches itsboilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culm andexitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily through thetubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actuallyremovingtheenamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in factremovethewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from the heatanditmayactually protect it from damage during the heat treating process.Whenitcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just aboveboiling,andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes toheattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350*andunderanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) gives theresultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Stuart Moultrie Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 12:23 AMSubject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results last nightandremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I read lastweekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting at theirends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want water toexitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose to waterprooftheculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heat treatingandthen instead of having to force the water all the way along thestripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do a testofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be usedandthiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundariesasstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with his findingsthatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult forwatertotravel up the strip to the ends after we have heat straighteneditandpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transportabilitiesofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain placesbetweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rodlater. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in thebasementworking on a rod. Stuart from rodwrapp@swbell.net Tue Jul 10 23:00:08 2001 f6B407Z14446 (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) Subject: Heddon This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Have any of you guys seen a Heddon #10 with a bronze colored reelseat?? =I have pics of it just email me and I will send one. Thanks Dave Have any of you guys seen a Heddon#10 = from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Tue Jul 10 23:06:47 2001 f6B46kZ14670 f6B46cn17568 Subject: Heat treating future father-in-law my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. My condolences. My father-in-law and I _went_ fishing. He dunked wormsand I threw muddlers at the lily pads as they exploded in bass andpickeral fury. And I remember there was that bluefish/bass blitz weshared just outside of Moriches Inlet. He has since passed and I misshim. Regards, BobFly Suppliesaflyshop.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Jul 10 23:50:55 2001 f6B4osZ15383 VAA25034 Subject: Cowboy Church This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Cowboy Church is how I describe fishing on Sunday. So when I am absent = from church I just tell them I was at cowboy church. They just look at =me an shrug. Big sky, cools stream and waving your hands toward heaven. =Sounds like a cowboys Church to me Adam Vigil Cowboy Church is how I describe fishing= So when I am absent from church I just tell them I was at cowboy church. = just look at me an shrug. Big sky, cools stream and waving your hands = heaven. Sounds like a cowboys Church to me AdamVigil from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Jul 10 23:50:56 2001 f6B4otZ15388 VAA25124 Subject: Medved Beveller This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Just finished my beveller. It is kind of the Frankenstein version. I =must of done something right because it works great! The people at home =depot thought I was deranged wandering the isle looking for parts that =had nothing to do with their original purpose. One thing I did was take =precision wheels for drawers and put them on my hold downs. My wrist are =going to thank me. Adam Vigil Just finished my beveller. It is kind = Frankenstein version. I must of done something right because it works = people at home depot thought I was deranged wandering the isle looking = that had nothing to do with their original purpose. One thing I did was = precision wheels for drawers and put them on my hold downs. My wrist are = to thank me. AdamVigil from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Wed Jul 11 01:27:08 2001 f6B6R7Z16955 10 Jul 2001 23:27:01 PDT Subject: Re: Heat Treat & Toning bill, i heard a program today with issac stearn in itand he said that he never new a great musician thatdidn't think he had something to learn. maybe that isone of the masters secrets in any craft. timothy --- Bill Fink wrote:To The List,What a wonderful discussion. Throw in a few othersubjects like tapers andgeometry in a friendly, open way and you have whatthis list is all about.It's my secret hope that we never really get allthese answers. This maywell be the greatest charm of our craft. We mustappreciate and veryseriously consider the strong technicalcontributions of Milward, Phillips,Mauer, Histand, Garrison and others. But as very fewof us will ever changethe way we are now doing things, the List mottoshould be: It Performs ForMe. Bill ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Jul 11 05:01:47 2001 f6BA1lZ19023 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: I have an idea! I have had lots of people say that they don't have pictures yet but thatthey see alot of classic rods and could start taking pictures. The most commonquestion is "what doI take pictures of?"If possible get an overall picture of the rod (bag and tube could beincluded), aclose shot of the butt end of the rod (reel seat, grip, winding check, hookkeeper andwhat not, you could also include the butt of the tips in this shot) Next tryand get ashot of the ferrules. Anything else that really stands out on the rod,perhaps the decalor writing on the shaft. whoowns/owned it, Serial number, whether the rod is original or not ,any otherparticularsabout the rod, guide spacings would be another GREAT bonus.If the picture isn't the best or doesn't have all these details don't sweatit, sendthem along, maybe I'll create a low res section to put those ones in.I hope this helps out,Shawn Shawn Pineo wrote: Here is what I'm working on guys and I ask only for your help. It was an have been slowly working away at that was recently re-ignited during aconversationwith Harry Boyd.I am going to try and build a collection of classic rod pictures. Irealizethat I can't accomplish this over night, or on my own. I have a fair amountstartedThink of it.... a data base or CD rom that has pictures of classic (andcontemporary) rods and as much pertinent info as I can gather, organized type, and size. from horsesho@ptd.net Wed Jul 11 05:26:52 2001 f6BAQpZ19335 sender ) Subject: Re: Heat treating I was on a fishing trip with an Ex. Leonard employee and when he found out Iheattreated at 320 degrees he about flipped. Being a typical old time SOBrodmaker hewould not tell me exactly how they did it at Leonard. All he would tell me isthatthey started heat treating just before leaving on Friday and stopped whentheyreturned to the shop on Monday morning. He would not tell me exact time ortemp. Myguess is 175-200F for 3 days. Marty PS. I don't really believe oldtimerodmaker areSOB's Ralph Moon wrote: Where everyone is going with this topic puzzles me, but I think thateveryonehas the right slant. Heat treating , whatever it does to the canechemicallyand physically, does impart a more responsive feel. But I am reminded oftheemphasis that our colleagues who make carbon fiber rods place on modulusofelasticity. It seems that each year each manufacturer tries to increasethe MOEof his rods. Now you all know that a rod must bend to project the line. Thepoint where it fails to bend is the end of its usefulness in fly casting. Iremember the first 2 wt Orvis (thank heaven withdrawn almost as fast asit wasconceived.) I ever cast was at the Orvis Shop in San Francisco. It hadattainedthe epitome of MOE and after exaggerated double hauling I was able to gettheline out about 30 ft. But I was exhausted in doing so.Cane can never achieve the MOE that graphite can, and I don't think thatweshould go too far in making rods stiffer and stiffer. A slow parabolic tapercan cast the line with more velocity and with LESS effort than your ultrastiffburned rods. I like tham blonde and I like them flamed and I like themtemperedjust up to the color change point. The point is: what do I want from thatrod? I certainly have no wish to denigrate the efforts of any rodmaker to try tocometo grips with heat treating, but I question if there is any one answer.Certainly there are empirical results of testing that are in opposition, but Ihave a sneaking suspicion that there may truth on each side. Ralph from splitcane@home.com Wed Jul 11 06:53:04 2001 f6BBr3Z20255 ;Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:52:49 -0700 Subject: Re: ammonia toning Hi John, I did not know they had a special product for this purpose, but itmake since... Is it available at fine wood working stores and dose it comein different mixes for different shades of colors? Take Care, Dave ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: ammonia toning Good idea. This is properly called a "mordant". I've used it onwood to no apparent adverse effect.John Z Dave Collyer wrote: Hi All... One think I have not read in this thread about"Ammonia Toning" is using a strong tea on the cane to enhancethe darking without a lethal dose of ammonia, tea is high intannin and will darken the cane much faster with lessammonia... Any Feedback? Take Care, Dave from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Jul 11 08:19:20 2001 f6BDJJZ21999 Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:17:40 -0700 Subject: Re: I have an idea! Shawn,Wonderful idea, and thanks for being willing to take this on. Put me down of the CD(s). Perhaps I missed it in the original post, but I'm assuming youare onlyinterested in "classic" rods. Is that correct? If so, then you certainly wantto make aproviso for those current makers whose rods will someday be classics. There are plentyof them on this list, from Wayne to Ralph to Bob to AJ to Bill to ,,,, well, youget the Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: Here is what I'm working on guys and I ask only for your help. It was an have been slowly working away at that was recently re-ignited during aconversationwith Harry Boyd. --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Jul 11 08:31:07 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f6BDV7Z22442 (5.5.2653.19) rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: A question???? When the slurry sets, it's called graphite, isn't it? -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: A question???? Thanks Dave,I bet you never find anything do you?This comes at a great time for me as my kids just gave me a cuttingedgeDell and I'm going to be using Outlook Express and such for the first time.I'd never been able to figure out how spam filters work. Your examples didthe trick.As for the discussion on heat treating, I just throw my cane in thefurnace and make a slurry of the ashes in Epon. Hey, it performs for me!!!!Seeya tomorrow Bill,Art At 05:55 PM 07/10/2001 -0600, Dave Collyer wrote:Hi All... Most mail programs have "rules" you can set to delete Spamautomatically...Mine is Outlook Express and under "tools", "message rules", "mail" then youcreate and name a "mail Rules" file. You can add key words from the Spamyoureceive like, "100% Free" "To Be Removed" and the such, words that wouldnotbe in your regular mail. As the Spam comes in I pick out key words fromthemto add to my "mail rules" file, after a week or so you will eliminate 99.9%of the Spam sent to you. Every once in a while I check my "Delete Mail"fileto see if there is anything interesting... Take Care, Dave ----- Original Message -----From: "Bamboo Joe" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 3:13 PMSubject: Re: A question???? Shawn: I have noticed a considerable increase in spam lately, but I did make aboo-boo when I promoted my website with one of those "off the shelve"submission programs. It seems that this one (promising over 1000submissions) sent my information to these FFA sites (Free For All). Theonly thing to come out of it is constant spam from the owners of theseFFAsites. My gosh how many MLM people are there out there? Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life".----- Original Message -----From: "Shawn Pineo" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 4:19 PMSubject: A question???? Just curious, has anyone noticed a drastic upswing in the amount ofspam theyhave been receiving lately??? I have several e mail accounts that don'tseem to havechanged but this account I use pretty much just for the list and I haveseen morespam here in the past few weeks than I have ever gotten total to thistime.Shawn from splitcane@home.com Wed Jul 11 09:09:32 2001 f6BE9VZ23738 ;Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:09:24 -0700 Subject: Re: A question???? Hi Art, If you need help setting up your mail rules in outlook express,follow these instructions... Click "Help" on your top tool bar and a drop down menu will appear... Click "contents and index" Click "search" Type in "mail rules" 11 topics will appear, the forth one is the one you want ( create rules formail messages ) but the other 10 topics are helpful also like block a senderor domain ;-) Take Care, Dave ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: A question???? Thanks Dave,I bet you never find anything do you?This comes at a great time for me as my kids just gave me a cutting edgeDell and I'm going to be using Outlook Express and such for the firsttime.I'd never been able to figure out how spam filters work. Your examples didthe trick.As for the discussion on heat treating, I just throw my cane in thefurnace and make a slurry of the ashes in Epon. Hey, it performs forme!!!!Seeya tomorrow Bill,Art At 05:55 PM 07/10/2001 -0600, Dave Collyer wrote:Hi All... Most mail programs have "rules" you can set to delete Spamautomatically...Mine is Outlook Express and under "tools", "message rules", "mail" thenyoucreate and name a "mail Rules" file. You can add key words from the Spamyoureceive like, "100% Free" "To Be Removed" and the such, words that wouldnotbe in your regular mail. As the Spam comes in I pick out key words fromthemto add to my "mail rules" file, after a week or so you will eliminate99.9%of the Spam sent to you. Every once in a while I check my "Delete Mail"fileto see if there is anything interesting... Take Care, Dave ----- Original Message -----From: "Bamboo Joe" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 3:13 PMSubject: Re: A question???? Shawn: I have noticed a considerable increase in spam lately, but I did make aboo-boo when I promoted my website with one of those "off the shelve"submission programs. It seems that this one (promising over 1000submissions) sent my information to these FFA sites (Free For All).Theonly thing to come out of it is constant spam from the owners of theseFFAsites. My gosh how many MLM people are there out there? Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life".----- Original Message -----From: "Shawn Pineo" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 4:19 PMSubject: A question???? Just curious, has anyone noticed a drastic upswing in the amountofspam theyhave been receiving lately??? I have several e mail accounts thatdon'tseem to havechanged but this account I use pretty much just for the list and Ihaveseen morespam here in the past few weeks than I have ever gotten total to thistime.Shawn from jmpio@nhbm.com Wed Jul 11 09:14:07 2001 f6BEE6Z24016 Subject: RE: Medved Beveller This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I've been thinking of building a beveller, but one of the things stopping meis that in Boise, Idaho it is hard to find industrial supplies of any kind,or even what I would consider (as a former Cleveland Ohio resident) a reallygood hardware store. It's as if there isn't a single machinist/millwrightin the entire city. I was finally able to build a working binder only aftersomeone explained that I could use a garage door pully from HD as a drivewheel, and sliding door parts from HD for the other pullies. I know that Iwould really appreciate a rundown/description on how you went about findingat HD the various parts needed for the beveller. For instance, drawerwheels, what part of the store were they in how did you use them. How didyou assemble the depth adjuster, from what parts. What did you use for themain face plate of the beveller. Things like that. You know, someone should write a book (maybe a pamphlet) on where in HD toscrounge the various items needed for rod making. Binder parts, dip/driptube parts, beveller parts, etc. -----Original Message----- Subject: Medved Beveller Just finished my beveller. It is kind of the Frankenstein version. I must ofdone something right because it works great! The people at home depotthought I was deranged wandering the isle looking for parts that had nothingto do with their original purpose. One thing I did was take precision wheels Adam Vigil I've been thinking of building a beveller, but one of the things stopping me is that in Boise, Idaho it is hard to find industrial supplies of any kind, or even what I would consider (as a former Cleveland Ohio resident) a really good hardware explained that I could use a garage door pully from HD as a drive wheel, and really appreciate a rundown/description on how you went about finding at HDthe what assemble face plate of the beveller. Things like that. You know, someone should write a book (maybe a pamphlet) on where in HD toscrounge parts, beveller parts, etc. -----Original Message-----From: Adam Vigil rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Medved BevellerJust finished my beveller. It is kind of the Frankenstein version. I must of done something right because it worksgreat! The people at home depot thought I was deranged wandering the isle looking parts that had nothing to do with their original purpose. One thing I did was take precision wheels for drawers and put them on my hold downs. My wristare going to thank me. AdamVigil from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed Jul 11 10:06:37 2001 f6BF6WZ27341 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Buying Sunshine - was re: a Question Charles Elliott in his book "Gone Fishing'" ( a good read) tells the story of two brothers, one a conscientious and highly successful businessman, the other a small-town storekeeper who "would never amount to anything". The storekeeper would close shop at the slightest provocation and take his family on a fishing trip -- he called this "Buying Sunshine" and it was one of life's treasures that he would never do without, though it was purchased at the cost of many more material rewards. Personally, I find that Buying Sunshine is one of the best things we can do for ourselves and our families. This is where we learn about each other and the nature of life. The rest of our daily lives can be spent on brute survival... at whatever comfort level we are offered.-- Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Wed Jul 11 10:11:59 2001 f6BFBwZ27789 (bhihdcimc02.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.35] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Buying Sunshine - was re: a Question Y'know, this is what I love the most about this list. Of course I learnabout rodmaking, like I was expecting to, but the human perspectives thatare offered like this from Reed, and Adam's cowboy church, are priceless.Please continue with the "Soup for the Flyfisher's Soul"....... TAM : ) -----Original Message----- Subject: Buying Sunshine - was re: a Question Charles Elliott in his book "Gone Fishing'" ( a good read) tells the story of two brothers, one a conscientious and highly successful businessman, the other a small-town storekeeper who "would never amount to anything". The storekeeper would close shop at the slightest provocation and take his family on a fishing trip -- he called this "Buying Sunshine" and it was one of life's treasures that he would never do without, though it was purchased at the cost of many more material rewards. Personally, I find that Buying Sunshine is one of the best things we can do for ourselves and our families. This is where we learn about each other and the nature of life. The rest of our daily lives can be spent on brute survival... at whatever comfort level we are offered.-- Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from Canerods@aol.com Wed Jul 11 10:16:52 2001 f6BFGpZ28153 Subject: Re: A question???? In a message dated 7/11/01 7:10:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, splitcane@home.com writes: Hi Art, If you need help setting up your mail rules in outlook express,follow these instructions... Click "Help" on your top tool bar and a drop down menu will appear... Click "contents and index" Click "search" Type in "mail rules" 11 topics will appear, the forth one is the one you want ( create rules formail messages ) but the other 10 topics are helpful also like block a senderor domain ;-) Take Care, Dave Typical MS way of hiding something important where only by knowing that it exists that you can find it in the first place. dgb In a message dated7/11/01 7:10:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, splitcane@home.com writes: Hi Art, If youneed help setting up your mail rules in outlook express,follow these instructions... Click "Help" on your top tool bar and a drop down menu will appear... Click "contents and index" Click "search" Type in "mail rules" 11 topics will appear, the forth one is the one you want ( create rulesformail messages ) but the other 10 topics are helpful also like block asenderor domain ;-) Take Care, Dave Typical MS way of hiding something important where only by knowingthat it exists that you can find it in the first place. dgb from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Jul 11 11:00:35 2001 f6BG0ZZ00417 Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:00:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Buying Sunshine - was re: a Question Reed, What's a trout fisherman like me doing stuck in Louisiana? I've askedthat question a thousand times. Louisiana is one of only three States inthe US with no coldwater fishery. Zero. There's even a trout stream or twoin Alabama. We've got plenty of other piscivorious (sp) pursuits in Cajuncountry, but no trout. I usually manage 8-12 coldwater trips, 2-7 days eachtrip, a year. Between those trips I pacify myself with the local fare,mostly largemouth, bluegill, and crappie. Thinking about it, every time I go out in the shop, every time I plane alittle cane, or polish a little varnish, I'm buying sunshine. Coldwatermagic. I suspect I'm not alone in that feeling. Good words,Harry Reed Curry wrote: Charles Elliott in his book "Gone Fishing'" ( a good read) tells thestory of two brothers, one a conscientious and highly successfulbusinessman, the other a small-town storekeeper who "would never amountto anything". The storekeeper would close shop at the slightestprovocation and take his family on a fishing trip -- he called this"Buying Sunshine" and it was one of life's treasures that he would neverdo without, though it was purchased at the cost of many more materialrewards. Personally, I find that Buying Sunshine is one of the best things we cando for ourselves and our families. This is where we learn about eachother and the nature of life. The rest of our daily lives can be spenton brute survival... at whatever comfort level we are offered.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from anglport@con2.com Wed Jul 11 13:13:27 2001 f6BIDQZ05421 rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Subject: RE: A question???? You found me out!Art At 08:30 AM 07/11/2001 -0500, Kling, Barry W. wrote: When the slurry sets, it's called graphite, isn't it? -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 7:40 PM Subject: Re: A question???? Thanks Dave,I bet you never find anything do you?This comes at a great time for me as my kids just gave me a cuttingedgeDell and I'm going to be using Outlook Express and such for the first time.I'd never been able to figure out how spam filters work. Your examples didthe trick.As for the discussion on heat treating, I just throw my cane in thefurnace and make a slurry of the ashes in Epon. Hey, it performs for me!!!!Seeya tomorrow Bill,Art At 05:55 PM 07/10/2001 -0600, Dave Collyer wrote:Hi All... Most mail programs have "rules" you can set to delete Spamautomatically...Mine is Outlook Express and under "tools", "message rules", "mail" then youcreate and name a "mail Rules" file. You can add key words from the Spamyoureceive like, "100% Free" "To Be Removed" and the such, words that wouldnotbe in your regular mail. As the Spam comes in I pick out key words fromthemto add to my "mail rules" file, after a week or so you will eliminate 99.9%of the Spam sent to you. Every once in a while I check my "Delete Mail"fileto see if there is anything interesting... Take Care, Dave ----- Original Message -----From: "Bamboo Joe" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 3:13 PMSubject: Re: A question???? Shawn: I have noticed a considerable increase in spam lately, but I did make aboo-boo when I promoted my website with one of those "off the shelve"submission programs. It seems that this one (promising over 1000submissions) sent my information to these FFA sites (Free For All). Theonly thing to come out of it is constant spam from the owners of theseFFAsites. My gosh how many MLM people are there out there? Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life".----- Original Message -----From: "Shawn Pineo" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 4:19 PMSubject: A question???? Just curious, has anyone noticed a drastic upswing in the amount ofspam theyhave been receiving lately??? I have several e mail accounts that don'tseem to havechanged but this account I use pretty much just for the list and I haveseen morespam here in the past few weeks than I have ever gotten total to thistime.Shawn from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Jul 11 13:15:14 2001 f6BIFDZ05634 "and Collecting" Subject: Re: Heat treating Hi All,One important issue left out of the heat treating discussion is thecustomer. Many folks seem to like the appearance of a flamed rod or abrowntoned rod. Thus what sells gets made.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Heat treating M-D, Bingo.This topic has been enjoyable and the friendly discussion is stimulating.Lets keep the ball rolling. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 4:31 PMSubject: Re: Heat treating Jim,I chose your post at random from which to respond. Guys, Undoubtedly many rods have been made using different methods of heattreatment, and these rods have withstood years of use, howevervirtuallyallof the information to date has been by empirical observation, and mostofthe conventional wisdom is predicated upon this. There are many goodpointsbeing made in this thread. Obviously, having merely flamed a culm doesnota"bad" rod make, but is it the best rod that can be produced? Is itreallystiffer? Does it really have the flexibility to be a superb fly rod, orhasit been degraded to a point of compromise? We, myself included, tend tothink of cane that has been heat treated as being stronger, stiffer.This,arguably, is due to the moisture loss, but is it really stronger/stiffersimply because it was "heat treated"? I don't think so.Yes, I think wehavecaused an irreversible change in the cane that results in the stripbeingmore evenly stressed throughout its length, but I also think we are inerror acertain heat treatment method that it is somehow better for a fly rod. Ithink we all will be surprised at the results from John Long's GrandExperiment once he publishes the findings. Won't we, John?One of the things we seemed to have forgotten in this thread is one oflossof flexibility, and resilience. Ron Grantham's testing conclusivelyprovesthat one particular heat treating regimen resulted in a loss ofresilience.Don Andersen's tests proved much the same thing, over a wider range. Ibelieve it was Don who first attempted to make some sense of all this.Hisresults have been verified by several others. Adam Vigil's testing addedanew twist to it all, the drying aspect. All of these tests have onethingincommon and that is they all tested only strips of bamboo. One of thethingsthat Bob Milward quickly found when doing his testing was that there wasconsiderable difference between strips and a rod section. Everythingchanged. For this he had to develop completely new criteria with whichtotest.What we are hoping to arrive at here is one of optimal condition, andthatis but part of the value of Milward's data. While there are many truthsheldhere in this thread, it becomes a little hard to refute hard data withmereempiricism, and this thread should not degrade into a defense of thismethod, or that. How can anyone rationally argue that a flamed rod isbetterthan one that has had an optimum heat treating/drying regimen, when wenowknow just how detrimental flaming is, or extreme heat treating for thatmatter? Yes, I do believe that it is all a matter of degrees, or howmuchistoo much, and of course no one seems to know what constitutes anoptimumheat treating/drying regimen. And what about ammonia toning? Theeffectsofammonia on cellulose are well documented. Don't know that this differsforbamboo, or why it would. Bob Milward didn't write much in his bookregardingthis as he didn't have the data with regards to bamboo in order todefendhis own observations, though those observations are right in line withthedata as it regards wood.We all build rods to suit ourselves, or at least I hope we do, andundoubtedly will continue to do so, and should, but at least we need torefrain from the temerity of supposing that "our" method is better whenthedata clearly shows that it is not. Shouldn't we be attempting to improveupon the groundwork that has been laid, as Adam is doing, and leave thesuppositions of the past in the past? If the old ways prove to be bestthenwe'll glean them, otherwise they should fade into the footnotes ofbamboorodmaking. Sometimes I think that TA is right about "us" when he wroteoncethat we never discussed anything new, only a rehash of the same thingsthathave been done for the last 50 years, and that nobody had done anythingnewin bamboo rods in the last twenty years. Well, here's our chance. M-D From: "Jim & Sallyann Freeman" Guys, Don't we want a little damage? I mean, if you're trying to get a fastactionrod, don't you want a little damage to the fibers, which results inmorestiffness? Aren't we really trying to find the balance point? I thinkthatheat treating to 350* or certainly 375* does cause a bit ofbrittleness,but the spine comes up too. If you get good life from a rod (how manytreated this way are out there - thousands?) and a good action, doesthedamage amount to anything? Jim----- Original Message -----From: Adam Vigil rodmakers Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 4:39 PMSubject: Re: Heat treating Patrick, Good ole Walt, he would know. I agree rising the temp to muchabove200*could be detrimental to the cane. The 225* used in my trial did notweakenthe cane in any way that a would matter to rod making and I doubtmicrospcopicall either. The test strips that were dry but not heattreatedbent to 75 to 85* for a 10" strip. In a very green culm, mine werenot,theH20 leaving rapidly possibly would rupture the cells to a point ithadanegative impact on the cane. This should be tested.I am not saying 200* isnt a good temp to use, it is just 225* alsohadnonegative impact. As to rupturing the cells in cane this can be truebutIspeculate that by the time the cane reaches 225* most of themoisturehasalready left. There is no rupturing of the pith or power fibreswheretheH20 exited at that temp. The cell walls are also damaged in cane when it is sanded, planned,flamed,bent, dried, glued, straightend, spliced and compressed. Throughusingtests that are relative to the way the cane will be used an averagestandardwill start to appear. Are we damaging cane as we make rods? Yes weare!Butas long as it is within a certain parameter the cane is stillfunctionalforour purposes. As one member of the list so appropriatley pointed out"Iwill take all those damaged flamed cane rods off of everybodieshands!" When I did the heat treating trial it was to clarify to myself whatwasactually needed to achieve an appropritate heat treatment.BasicallyIwanted to clear away the opinions and get down to the facts. I foundanaccepatable time an temp for heat treating but is it the mostappropriate?I dont know, after a few more trials I think I will have moreanswers.WhatI do know for a fact is a varitey of heat treatments will result indifferant actions and characteristics for the same cane. Some ofthoserodswill be "damaged" cellularly but will still be excellent functionalflyrodsbecause their damage is within a range that is accepatable. Do not get me wrong I want cane with the least amount of damagepossible.But part of being a creator of cane rods is we make decisions baseduponwhat we wish as the end result. And the fact of the matter not allofusaregoing to end up wanting to use the exact same heat treatment duetodifferant effects will be wanted. "Sometime you hurt the one you love" and so it seems it is nodifferantforcane. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Coffey, Patrick W ;'AdamVigil' Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 11:11 AMSubject: RE: Heat treating Bamboo like wood looses 90% of it moisture through the end grainandusesmedullarie rays to transfer the moisture outward towards theenamel.Toslowdown the drying of wood/bamboo, the end grain is sealed and thematerialsurface drys which prevents checking to a large extent. The violinshopIworked at supplied wood to builders all over the world, we cut upgreenlogsand air-dried the wood, as kiln drying cooked the life out of it. wesealedthe end grain with paraffin and paint thinner mix and just aboutcompletelyeliminated checking, I've done the same thing with my culms, andasidefromthe drying split they've hardly checked at all compare the theuncoatedculms. I talked to Walt Powell a few years ago and he told me thattheyheat to 200 degree for a few hours to get the moisture out beforetheyraised the temp up to 350 by steps. They felt that if you heatedaboveboiling temperature the moisture turned to steam and tended torupturethecell walls and that by kee!!ping the temp below boiling that most of the moisture could bedrivenoutwithout damaging the cells. I tried this on the last culm I heattreatedthemoisture ran out of the end grain, Bob Milward had came to the sameconclusion. ---------- Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Heat treating Stuart, Good observation. Water does travel up the culm in tubules andcanexitthrough this route also. The water in a culm when it reachesitsboilingpoint will turn to gas and pass through the tissue of the culmandexitthroughout the culm. It may exit the culm more easily throughthetubulesbut it will eventually leave throughout the strip. Actuallyremovingtheenamel before drying and heat treating the culm will in factremovethewater quicker but the enamel also acts as a barrier from theheatanditmayactually protect it from damage during the heat treatingprocess.Whenitcomes to drying from the culm I believe low temp, just aboveboiling,andlong times 1-2 hours at least will do the job. When it comes toheattreating from what I have observed I would keep the temp 350*andunderanduse test strips to find what temp and time(under 30 min) givestheresultyou want from that paticular culm. Best Regards, Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Stuart Moultrie Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 12:23 AMSubject: Heat treating I was reading Adam Vigil's heat treating test results lastnightandremembered Bob Milwards comments in his book that I readlastweekaboutwater travelling up the strips being heated and exiting attheirends.It would make sense to me that Bamboo would not want watertoexitthrough the enamel, the enamel is there I suppose towaterprooftheculm. Why don't we just take the enamel off before heattreatingandthen instead of having to force the water all the way alongthestripsand out of the end it would just evaporate through the now nonwaterproof surface. I do not have the possibilities to do atestofthis, but I would think that a lower temperature could be usedandthiswould keep our strips well within the colour change boundariesasstipulated in Bob Milwards book (if you agree with hisfindingsthatis). Now that I have reread this mail; would it be difficult forwatertotravel up the strip to the ends after we have heatstraighteneditandpressed the nodes, perhaps destroying the water transportabilitiesofthe strip in the process?Perhaps water becomes trapped in the strips in certain placesbetweenenamel and damaged "pipes" causing a weaker point in the rodlater. Or is this all just old hat and should I have stayed in thebasementworking on a rod. Stuart from Mark_Dyba@hotmail.com Wed Jul 11 13:29:43 2001 f6BITgZ06754 Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:29:28 -0700 Subject: floss FILETIME=[6BAACFC0:01C10A37] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Does any member have a source for Pearsall's silk floss. My old supply =is about gone and I need to tie a few flies for a trip to the rockies.Thanks, Mark Does any member have a source for = trip to the rockies. Mark from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed Jul 11 13:38:12 2001 f6BIcCZ07506 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: floss Mark,Try www.huntersangling.com. I buy mine there.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Mark Dyba wrote: Does any member have a source for Pearsall's silk floss. My old supply is about gone and I need to tie a few flies for a trip to the rockies. Thanks, Mark -- from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Jul 11 14:11:27 2001 f6BJBQZ09215 Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:08:46 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: I have an idea! Harry and all,sorry, I must not of been clear in my original message,although theemphasis was on classics I would love to add pictures of contemporaryrods/builders into themixture.I really believe this an important project, as we know classicrods forresearch are becoming more and more scarce, unfortunately even modernrod builders and theircreations become scarce just as quickly, look how many great guys we'velost off the list inthe past year.Go ahead guys send what you think will benefit the craft, if Istart to getoverwhelmed or bogged down I'll let you know,Shawn Harry Boyd wrote: Shawn,Wonderful idea, and thanks for being willing to take this on. Put medown for a copyof the CD(s). Perhaps I missed it in the original post, but I'm assuming youare onlyinterested in "classic" rods. Is that correct? If so, then you certainlywant to make aproviso for those current makers whose rods will someday be classics. There are plentyof them on this list, from Wayne to Ralph to Bob to AJ to Bill to ,,,, well,you get the Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: Here is what I'm working on guys and I ask only for your help. It was an have been slowly working away at that was recently re-ignited during aconversationwith Harry Boyd. --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from oandc@msn.com Wed Jul 11 14:32:07 2001 f6BJW7Z10168 Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:30:49 -0700 Subject: Splitting Bamboo FILETIME=[FDD0C6E0:01C10A3F] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hello all, in contemplating the splitting process I envisioned a jig for =scoring the bamboo culm through the enamal using a fine blade prior to =splitting. I'm sure this is not a noval idea and would appreciate =feedback as to the pros and cons. Thanks, Wayne Hello all, in contemplating the = envisioned a jig for scoring the bamboo culm through the enamal using a = blade prior to splitting. I'm sure this is not a noval idea and would = feedback as to the pros and cons. Thanks, =Wayne from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Jul 11 14:38:53 2001 f6BJcqZ10588 Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:37:47 -0700 Subject: Re: I have an idea! Shawn,Thanks for the clarification. Okay guys, send Shawn some pictures. Fromthis list, thefollowing rod makers jump to mind, and excuse me in advance for not thinkingof the many I haveoverlooked. John ZimnyRay GouldGeorge BarnesWayne CattanachBill FinkBob NunleyHank WoolmanDave LeClairStuart KirkfieldRob HoffhinesJoe PerrigoChris BogartEd HartzellAJ ThramerRalph Moon All of the above makers have made and are making siginificantcontributions to this art andcraft. Their rods should be included. Again, I'm sure I have forgotten somewho should beincluded. Such is always the danger when you name names. Maybe other list members are fortunate enough to own rods by one ormore of these makers andwould be willing to photograph them and document them for posterity. Doingso would be aninvaluable service to the rest of us. Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: Harry and all,sorry, I must not of been clear in my original message,although theemphasis was on classics I would love to add pictures of contemporaryrods/builders into themixture. --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from sats@gte.net Wed Jul 11 15:37:16 2001 f6BKbFZ13071 Subject: Re: I have an idea! ... Their rods should be included. if they don't want to send the rod to Shawn, they can send them to me!!! ----------------------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/sats from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Jul 11 16:23:24 2001 f6BLNNZ14913 Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:23:11 -0700 Subject: Re: I have an idea! Shawn,Thanks for the clarification. Okay guys, let's send Shawn some pictures. from this list,the following rod makers jump to mind, and excuse me in advance for notthinking of the many Ihave surely overlooked. George BarnesWayne CattanachRay GouldBill FinkJohn ZimnyBob NunleyHank WoolmanDave LeClairStuart KirkfieldRob HoffhinesJoe PerrigoChris BogartEd HartzellAJ ThramerRalph Moon All of the above makers have made and/or are making siginificantcontributions to this artand craft. Their rods should be included. Again, I'm sure I have forgottensome who should beincluded. Such is always the danger when you name names. Maybe other list members are fortunate enough to own rods by one ormore of these makers andwould be willing to photograph them and document them for posterity. Doingso would be aninvaluable service to the rest of us. Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: Harry and all,sorry, I must not of been clear in my original message,although theemphasis was on classics I would love to add pictures of contemporaryrods/builders into themixture. --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from jvswan@earthlink.net Wed Jul 11 16:56:32 2001 f6BLuVZ16028 (63.225.232.169) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108Subject: Fishing Idaho Hi all, I will be heading up to central Idaho to drive a support vehicle for abicycle tour next week. Our days are usually done by 4 PM at the latest, soI hope to spend the rest of the time fishing. Is there anyone on the list that might like to hook up to go fishing? Or,is there anyone on the list that can offer any suggestions about where tofish and what to use. Of course, I have consulted with Silver CreekOutfitters to get fly patterns, but I would really love any individualinformation that I could get. Each night of the ride we will be staying in a different place. So, this iswhere we will be, and where I will like to find some fishing. If anyonelive in or around these places, I would be grateful for some company on thewater. Mon, July 16 - FairfieldTues, July 17 - KetchumWed, July 18 - StanleyThur, July 19 - LowmanFri, July 20 - Emmet Go ahead and email me off list if you want to go fishing, or if you couldpoint me in the right direction. Thanks in advance, Jason Swan(435) 752-8676 from splitcane@home.com Wed Jul 11 16:59:08 2001 f6BLx8Z16215 ;Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:59:06 -0700 Subject: Re: Heat Treat & Toning I'm no scholar, but here's one: "piscator-non-solum-piscatur" "there is more to fishing then catching fish" Take Care, Dave ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Heat Treat & Toning Any latin scholars out there who can make it sound classic? John Z from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Jul 11 17:40:10 2001 f6BMe9Z17216 PAA16799 Subject: Things that make me go Hmmm? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Recieved Bob Milwards book today. Already have 60 pages under my belt. =It is interesting to see some of the similarties in our findings. To =tell you the truth even though methods varied somewhat the findings are =closely similiar. Tonkin is a very wonderful material for rods and the =material seems to act very consistent when tested by differant =researchers. Second thought. In Mildwards book he makes some interesting claims about =nodes. He states that "nodes proved to be 10%-15% less stiff in strip =test and at least 7% softer in full-section test." This is something =that surprised me. I know from testing nodes are not the weakest part of =a strip when bent to maximum. But in terms of taking a set it appears =that the nodes will tend to take a set first. Being I have only made =nodeless I have no idea if this is the case for general rod making. Lets =have some feedback especially from those who have made rods both ways. =FYI he also reccomends 2x2 staggering of nodes. So what is the feeling of those of us who craft with Gods Grass? Are =nodes a possible reason for some of the sets we are getting? Adam Vigil today. = have 60 pages under my belt. It is interesting to see some of the = the findings are closely similiar. Tonkin is a very wonderful material = researchers. Second thought. In Mildwards book he = interesting claims about nodes. He states that "nodes proved to be = stiff in strip test and at least 7% softer in full-section test." This = something that surprised me. I know from testing nodes are not the = of a strip when bent to maximum. But in terms of taking a set it appears = the nodes will tend to take a set first. Being I have only made nodeless = no idea if this is the case for general rod making. Lets have some = especially from those who have made rods both ways. FYI he also = staggering of nodes. So what is the feeling of those of us = getting? AdamVigil from utzerath@execpc.com Wed Jul 11 18:53:45 2001 f6BNriZ18684 f6BNrW836311; f6BNneS37184; Subject: Re: Things that make me go Hmmm? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Adam, I suggested to Bob some months ago that perhaps his thin strip technique =was crosscutting a lot of fibers in the node area; thus, giving him low =readings. To his credit he avoids speculating on things his data =doesn't directly support. But I found no bending modulus change at the =node either. I did not measure burst modulus so I nothing to say about =that. I concluded that nodes may only be a problem when the rod diameter gets =down around .12" or so. I like to do tip sections nodeless as a result. =But I like the look of nodes on (Bob forgive me) flamed cane. Jim U Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 5:15 PMSubject: Things that make me go Hmmm? Recieved Bob Milwards book today. Already have 60 pages under my =belt. It is interesting to see some of the similarties in our findings. =To tell you the truth even though methods varied somewhat the findings =are closely similiar. Tonkin is a very wonderful material for rods and =the material seems to act very consistent when tested by differant =researchers. Second thought. In Mildwards book he makes some interesting claims =about nodes. He states that "nodes proved to be 10%-15% less stiff in =strip test and at least 7% softer in full-section test." This is =something that surprised me. I know from testing nodes are not the =weakest part of a strip when bent to maximum. But in terms of taking a =set it appears that the nodes will tend to take a set first. Being I =have only made nodeless I have no idea if this is the case for general =rod making. Lets have some feedback especially from those who have made=rods both ways. FYI he also reccomends 2x2 staggering of nodes. So what is the feeling of those of us who craft with Gods Grass? Are =nodes a possible reason for some of the sets we are getting? Adam Vigil Adam, I suggested to Bob some months ago that perhaps his= technique was crosscutting a lot of fibers in the node area; thus, = that. cane. Jim U ----- Original Message ----- Vigil Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001= PMSubject: Things that make me go= Hmmm? have 60 pages under my belt. It is interesting to see some of the = somewhat the findings are closely similiar. Tonkin is a very wonderful = material for rods and the material seems to act very consistent when = differant researchers. Second thought. In Mildwards book he= interesting claims about nodes. He states that "nodes proved to be = less stiff in strip test and at least 7% softer in full-section test." = something that surprised me. I know from testing nodes are not the = part of a strip when bent to maximum. But in terms of taking a set it = that the nodes will tend to take a set first. Being I have only made = I have no idea if this is the case for general rod making. Lets have = feedback especially from those who have made rods both ways. FYI he = reccomends 2x2 staggering of nodes. So what is the feeling of those of us = getting? Adam =Vigil from anglport@con2.com Wed Jul 11 19:55:29 2001 f6C0tTZ19710 Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Wayne,My guess is you'll have nice scoremarks right down the middle of the =split strips. I don't think you're going to get it to split right along =the scores no matter how hard you try.My $.02Art Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 3:32 PMSubject: Splitting Bamboo Hello all, in contemplating the splitting process I envisioned a jig = to splitting. I'm sure this is not a noval idea and would appreciate =feedback as to the pros and cons. Thanks, Wayne Wayne, scoremarks right down the middle of the split strips. I don't think = try.My $.02Art ----- Original Message ----- oandc = Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001= PMSubject: Splitting Bamboo Hello all, in contemplating the = I envisioned a jig for scoring the bamboo culm through the enamal = appreciate feedback as to the pros and cons. Wayne from horsesho@ptd.net Wed Jul 11 21:53:03 2001 f6C2r3Z21560 Subject: Leonard #37H 6 1/2' 2/2 DT4 Hi Here is the Leonard #37H I just took measurements of. It has a fairlyfast Dry Fly action. Measured over varnish. Deduct .004. Enjoy , Marty Butt Tip00 .185" .06405 .196 .08010 .216 .10615 .232 .11620 .245 .13425 .257 .14530 .285 .15935 .16739 .176 guide spacing Butt Tip2 1/2" 4 7/8"9 1/4 10 1/817 3/8 1622 1/82834 3" seat , 51/2" grip from flytyr@southshore.com Wed Jul 11 22:02:03 2001 f6C323Z21852 f6C31vo05410 Subject: Getting the Snow White again Anybody getting the Snow White message againTrying to pin it down.It has to be coming from one of the lists I am on. Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from teekay35@interlynx.net Wed Jul 11 23:09:46 2001 f6C49kZ22990 Subject: Re: Things that make me go Hmmm? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I've noticed that when heat straightening glued up sections the "kinks" =are almost always on or near a node. I haven't kept a log of the =freqency of this, but it has to have some relevance. I've noticed that when heat = relevance. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Jul 11 23:48:03 2001 f6C4m3Z23690 VAA29645; Subject: Re: Medved Beveller This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I took a router table and set in on its side and mounted everything to =it. Works like a charm...maybe I should go buy a lottery ticket. Adam Vigil Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 5:12 PMSubject: Re: Medved Beveller I made my beveler using one piece of steel plate from a metal supply =place. My guess is that a wood face would have worked almost as well. =The rest came from ACE hardware. Of course, there was a "Medved Beveler-=big trouble" thread that later appeared on the list, but it worked out = There were times when I thought that I would never get a rod done =because it took foreverto assemble the tools and materials. It taught me patience, and turned =out to be half the fun. Of course, it was not as cool as watching your =first rod come out of the dip tank, which It might be fun to start a "how I did it" thread. Jeff Schaeffer I took a router table and set in on its = mounted everything to it. Works like a charm...maybe I should go buy a = ticket. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Setissma Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 =5:12 PMSubject: Re: Medved =Beveller I made my beveler using one piece of = from a metal supply place. My guess is that a wood face would have = almost as well. The rest came from ACE hardware. Of course, there was = "Medved Beveler- big trouble" thread that later appeared on the list, = worked out in the end. There were times when I thought that= never get a rod done because it took foreverto assemble the tools and materials. = patience, and turned out to be half the fun. Of course, it was not as = watching your first rod come out of the dip tank, whichmine is doing right now as we It might be fun to start a "how I did = thread. Schaeffer from ctn45555@centurytel.net Wed Jul 11 23:49:35 2001 f6C4nYZ23837 f6C4nUO26215 Organization: Smith & Boyd Subject: Polishing Poly I'm currently sanding a few dust specs on my first rod (poly finish).I'm polishing those areas with 3M Perfect It II. The polished areasnearly match the sheen of the unpolished but not quite. Any tricks here?In searching the archives it seems that some have used a machine polishafter the 3M product. How does that work? Thanks in advance for your help, Chad Boyd from bambooneophyte@hotmail.com Thu Jul 12 02:36:44 2001 f6C7ahZ25506 Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:36:33 -0700 Subject: Fw: Sv: Heat treating FILETIME=[5FBE8E90:01C10AA5] Timothy: I wonder if your future father-in-law is aware of the old BabylonianProverb that "The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hoursspent in fishing." Maybe he is concerned that if you spend too much time insuch pursuits you will outlive his daughter. I think your finest hours will be when you have shared with your son(s) anddaughter(s) the joys of fishing and your father-in-law has to take up thesport in order to spend time with them. Best of luck to you all, Ed Savage (a/k/a bambooneophyte@hotmail.com] ----- Original Message -----From: timothy troester Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 11:55 AMSubject: Re: Sv: Heat treating So who is right, and who is wrong? i think we're all wrong! my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. i'm notmowing the yard, painting the house working the extrajob or doing any of the things an adult should beconcerned. i am assuming this probably applies to rodbuilding also. :-) timothy from bambooneophyte@hotmail.com Thu Jul 12 02:51:36 2001 f6C7paZ25820 Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:51:26 -0700 Subject: Fw: Sv: Heat treating FILETIME=[73E8FE30:01C10AA7] Timothy: I wonder if your future father-in-law is aware of the old Babylonian Proverbthat "The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent infishing." Maybe he is concerned that if you spend too much time in suchpursuits you will outlive his daughter. I think your finest hours will be when you have shared with your son(s) anddaughter(s) the joys of fishing and your father-in-law has to take up thesport in order to spend time with them. Best of luck to you all, Ed Savage (a/k/a bambooneophyte@hotmail.com] ----- Original Message -----From: timothy troester Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 11:55 AMSubject: Re: Sv: Heat treating So who is right, and who is wrong? i think we're all wrong! my future father-in-law toldme the other day that a man who has time to fish is aman that isn't taking care of his business. i'm notmowing the yard, painting the house working the extrajob or doing any of the things an adult should beconcerned. i am assuming this probably applies to rodbuilding also. :-) timothy from bambooneophyte@hotmail.com Thu Jul 12 03:28:33 2001 f6C8SWZ26303 Thu, 12 Jul 2001 01:28:26 -0700 Subject: Re: undersized ferrules FILETIME=[9EFA21D0:01C10AAC] Andrew: I believe I saw a solution to this question on another site about 9 monthsago, and it is similar to the solution Onis provided. Merely tap lightly(but repeatedly, as needed) on the bottom of the male ferrule with ahammer.This supposedly compresses the male ferrule slightly, thereby squashing itlength- wise and increasing the diameter/circumference of the ferrule,creating a tighter fit. Best of luck, Ed Savage (a/k/a bambooneophyte@hotmail.com] ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: undersized ferrules Very creative! Got any ideas for when the male is already glued on? Idon'twant to deform the female at all since the other male is fine, so I don'twant to crimp the female or anything like that. A very thin coating ofsomething on the male that dries really hard might do it...but I haven'tfound the right stuff yet. I tried rustoleum and then lightly sanded itandI no longer have a tick in the ferrule, but I think this is verytemporary...I know, I could just replace the male with the problem... Andy -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:35 AM Subject: Re: undersized ferrules Great Idea, this one is going into file for future reference. Adam----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 7:47 AMSubject: Fwd: undersized ferrules k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:I posted this a year or two ago but for the new list members: If you find you have over sanded and have an undersized male ferrule,youmight try this. Go to an aquarium store and purchase a small bag ofreptile/amphibian sand. It's the very fine sand. Now you need a steelrodjust smaller in diameter than the inside of the male ferrule. Make sureboth ends of the steel rod are square and flat on the end. You only needapiece about 2 or 3 inches long. Now fill the ferrule about 2/3 with thefine sand; enough to fill the section that will fit inside the female.Nowplace the closed end of the ferrule on a solid surface. An oak blockshouldwork well. Place the rod into the ferrule and seat it on the sand. Nowtapthe rod with a small hammer. Gently, a lot of small "pecks" is betterthanone big "whack". The sand spreads the force of the hammer and causes ittoswell. Hit it to hard and you can deform the ferrule but if you aregentle,you can bring it to just the right diameter. Regards, Onis k5vkq@ix.netcom.com from horsesho@ptd.net Thu Jul 12 05:42:28 2001 f6CAgRZ27398 Subject: Re: Leonard #37H 6 1/2' 2/2 DT4 TEST! none wrote: Hi Here is the Leonard #37H I just took measurements of. It has a fairlyfast Dry Fly action. Measured over varnish. Deduct .004. Enjoy , Marty Butt Tip00 .185" .06405 .196 .08010 .216 .10615 .232 .11620 .245 .13425 .257 .14530 .285 .15935 .16739 .176 guide spacing Butt Tip2 1/2" 4 7/8"9 1/4 10 1/817 3/8 1622 1/82834 3" seat , 51/2" grip from dnorl@qwest.net Thu Jul 12 06:20:25 2001 f6CBKPZ27840 (63.228.45.86) Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo This is a multi-part message in MIME format. At Greyrock ,Ted Barhardt showed his splitting method using a ceramic =tile cutter pliers (edge cutting nipper) He marked it using a jig made =using a pencil and split from the edge of the culm instead of always =spiltting in the middle. They came out ok but it does not tempt me to =vary from the procedure that has evolved into the method Bob Nunley =demonstrates. Using this method my splits are so easy and controlable I =don't know what could be done to improve them (settling for whats =already there is probably why I never come up with anything new myself. =Thank goodness for the list)Dave Norling -----Original Message-----From: Art Port Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 7:56 PMSubject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Wayne,My guess is you'll have nice scoremarks right down the middle of =the split strips. I don't think you're going to get it to split right =along the scores no matter how hard you try.My $.02Art Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 3:32 PMSubject: Splitting Bamboo Hello all, in contemplating the splitting process I envisioned a =jig for scoring the bamboo culm through the enamal using a fine blade =prior to splitting. I'm sure this is not a noval idea and would =appreciate feedback as to the pros and cons. Thanks, Wayne At Greyrock ,Ted Barhardt showedhis = method using a ceramic tile cutter pliers (edge cutting nipper) He = using a jig made using a pencil and split from the edge of the culm = demonstrates. Using this method my splits are so easy and controlable I = know what could be done to improve them (settling for whats already = probably why I never come up with anything new myself. Thank goodness = list)Dave =Norling -----Original = <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Wednesday, July 11, 2001 7:56 PMSubject: Re: = BambooWayne, scoremarks right down the middle of the split strips. I don't think = going to get it to split right along the scores no matter how hard = try.My $.02Art ----- Original Message ----- = oandc = Sent: Wednesday, July 11, = PMSubject: Splitting =Bamboo Hello all, in contemplating the = process I envisioned a jig for scoring the bamboo culm through = enamal using a fine blade prior to splitting. I'm sure this is = cons. Wayne from channer@frontier.net Thu Jul 12 06:53:42 2001 f6CBrfZ28315 Subject: Re: Polishing Poly Chad;You must use the Finesse It II Machine Polish after the Perfect It tobring back the high gloss, and it does work. If you rub hard enuf andlong snuf, you won't be able to find where you have polished it.John Amy & Chad wrote: I'm currently sanding a few dust specs on my first rod (poly finish).I'm polishing those areas with 3M Perfect It II. The polished areasnearly match the sheen of the unpolished but not quite. Any tricks here?In searching the archives it seems that some have used a machine polishafter the 3M product. How does that work? Thanks in advance for your help, Chad Boyd from ddeloach@pcisys.net Thu Jul 12 09:36:02 2001 f6CEZwZ02309 env- from (ddeloach@pcisys.net) Subject: Re: I have an idea! What about Jon Parker.And--I don't think Stuart Kirkfield is a maker, just a restorer...could bewrong though.DD----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: I have an idea! Shawn,Thanks for the clarification. Okay guys, let's send Shawn somepictures. from this list,the following rod makers jump to mind, and excuse me in advance for notthinking of the many Ihave surely overlooked. George BarnesWayne CattanachRay GouldBill FinkJohn ZimnyBob NunleyHank WoolmanDave LeClairStuart KirkfieldRob HoffhinesJoe PerrigoChris BogartEd HartzellAJ ThramerRalph Moon All of the above makers have made and/or are making siginificantcontributions to this artand craft. Their rods should be included. Again, I'm sure I haveforgotten some who should beincluded. Such is always the danger when you name names. Maybe other list members are fortunate enough to own rods by one ormore of these makers andwould be willing to photograph them and document them for posterity.Doing so would be aninvaluable service to the rest of us. Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: Harry and all,sorry, I must not of been clear in my originalmessage, although theemphasis was on classics I would love to add pictures of contemporaryrods/builders into themixture. --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from oandc@msn.com Thu Jul 12 09:46:17 2001 f6CEkGZ02804 Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:45:55 -0700 Subject: Local makers FILETIME=[5B8AD8B0:01C10AE1] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hello again all, Thanks for your input on splitting. I am interested in =locating experienced makers near Coos Bay, Oregon. I believe many of the =questions I have would be best addresses by watching. If there is anyone =out there who is close and doesn' mind someone looking over their =sholder, let me know. I enjoy the learning process and always appreciate =watching a craftsman at work. Thanks again,Wayne Hello again all, Thanks for your input = splitting. I am interested in locating experienced makers near Coos Bay, = I believe many of the questions I have would be best addresses by = there is anyone out there who is close and doesn' mind someone looking = their sholder, let me know. I enjoy the learning process and always = watching a craftsman at work. Thanks again,Wayne from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Jul 12 15:38:06 2001 f6CKc5Z14671 f6CKc4Y17735 Subject: Replies to Snow White Here is the tally so far today.Of ten replies, six got the Snow White message andfour said they did not get any.One person got it several times last week.None of these people are on any other lists I amon.I was told how to block it and did so. Let' see ifthat works for me.Thanks for the replies.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from rodwrapp@swbell.net Thu Jul 12 15:40:51 2001 f6CKeoZ14893 (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) Subject: Book This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Is the Bob Milward book worth getting?? Thanks Dave Is the Bob Milward book worth = from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Jul 12 17:40:34 2001 f6CMeXZ18721 PAA22801; Subject: Re: Book This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Dave, My review of Bob Milwards Book is "Damn that was a great book" I just finished the book today and I just got it yesterday. He covers =alot of material that is not found any where else. Getting his book and =just implementing some of his ideas or by better understanding cane, =rods in the future will have a little something extra. I suggest you =get it now that way you keep from kicking yourself years from now =wishing you had got it "back when". There are few "good deals" in what =we do. I consider the best deals are when you make your own equipment =and the other is Milward book. Best $30 I ever spent. If it were a =college text it would cost $80. Adam Vigil Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 1:34 PMSubject: Book Is the Bob Milward book worth getting?? Thanks Dave Dave, My review of Bob Milwards Book is"Damn = great book" I just finished the book today and I = yesterday. He covers alot of material that is not found any where = understanding cane, rods in the future will have a little = years from now wishing you had got it "back when". There are few "good = what we do. I consider the best deals are when you make your own = and the other is Milward book. Best $30 I ever spent. If it were a = it would cost $80. Adam Vigil Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 = PMSubject: Book Is the Bob Milward book worth = from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Jul 12 17:43:28 2001 f6CMhRZ18941 Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu All this talk again about splitting methods has got me wondering if anyone does it the way I do. I screw a 2X4 to my bench and drive an old screwdriver into the 2X4. I start my initial split as usual and then I put it around the round shaft part of the screwdriver and then I push the cane towards the SD and being that it is round the bamboo just slides along and is very controllable and my splits come out to almost perfect size each time. The individual strips do not vary by more than a 1/16. Since using this method I never get wopperjawed strips any more. Tony Miller has seen my before and after strips and he can attest to the accuracy of this method.Bret All this talk again about splitting methods has got me wondering ifanyone screwdriver around the round shaft part of the screwdriver and then I push the cane towardsthe SD and being that it is round the bamboo just slides along and is very controllable and my splits come out to almost perfect size each time. this method I before and after strips and he can attest to the accuracy of this method.Bret from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Jul 12 18:52:47 2001 f6CNqiZ19928 Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Yep, YepThat's the way I do it now.Works great.Tony Miller Yep, YepThat's the way I do itnow.Works great.TonyMiller from jczimny@dol.net Thu Jul 12 19:00:16 2001 f6D00FZ20241 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: Book Yes. Most definately.JohnZ Davesrods wrote: Is the Bob Milward book worth getting?? Thanks Dave from ChristopherO@epicimaging.com Thu Jul 12 19:07:07 2001 f6D076Z20472 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Splitting Bamboo This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. i do things similarly, but different.my method of splitting is an amalgam of meny methods, including johnbokstrom's, bob nunley's, and whoever it was on the list said they stuck thestrips in a vice to help control the length of the split. from bostrom i use his idea of measuring the cane for rod length beforesplitting (sometimes, though more often i just split assuming an 8 1/2 footrod legth, since i don't make any longer than that), and of using thesharpest paring knife with the thinnest blade that i can find (i have ahenkel, $399 at target). this is inserted into the bench vice, with onlyabout 1-2 inches of the blade protruding. the end of the culm is placedagainst the knife edge, where one wants to start the split, then tapped witha wooden mallet to get the split started. next i take the culm section and hold it in front of me, enamelled sidetowards me. i stick a phillips head screw driver shaft into the split (thtype of screw driver doesn't matter, all you need is a hard - chromed steel-shaft with a handle to help you control things), with the shaftperpendicular to the enamel. it's important to always stay perpendicular sothat the edges of the strips are squared, rather than skewed, and to keepthe split from "walking". the screw driver handle is in my right hand fingers, my left index fingercurled over the shaft in front of the cane for control. the screwdriver isslowly pushed towards the floor, driving the split in front of it. if thesplit starts to "walk" to one side, keep the skinny side of the spiltparallel to the un-split section, and pull the "fat" strip laterally.the split will naturally walk back to the center (i've split strips evenlyin two that were less than .100 to start with). if you want more control, place the cane to be split in the bench vice at anode. pull the screw driver shaft toward the vice to achieve the split,which will only go up to the clamped area. this is particularly helpful ifyou have a stubborn node that you think is going to be a problem (if youclamp just past the node, the split will go through the node and stop whereyou're clamped - "no whoops! that went to far"). using the screw driver shaft as a fulcrum or splitting wedge is much easieron my fingers than trying to pull the strips apart with brute force(especially when doing halves or quarter culms). it also lets you split 32 tip strips out faster than you can believe, veryevenly sized, with no discards. hope this helps someone. if it's not clear enough, let me know and i'll tryto better explain whichever part doesn't make sense. chris O -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Splitting Bamboo All this talk again about splitting methods has got me wondering if anyone does it the way I do. I screw a 2X4 to my bench and drive an oldscrewdriver into the 2X4. I start my initial split as usual and then I put it aroundthe round shaft part of the screwdriver and then I push the cane towards the SD and being that it is round the bamboo just slides along and is very controllable and my splits come out to almost perfect size each time. The individual strips do not vary by more than a 1/16. Since using this methodI never get wopperjawed strips any more. Tony Miller has seen my before and after strips and he can attest to the accuracy of this method. Bret i do things similarly, but different.my method of splitting is an amalgam of meny methods, including johnbokstrom's, bob nunley's, and whoever it was on the list said they stuck the strips in a vice to help control the length of the split. from bostrom i use his idea of measuring the cane for rod length before splitting (sometimes, though more often i just split assuming an 8 1/2 foot rod legth, since i don't make any longer than that), and of using the sharpest paringknife with the thinnest blade that i can find (i have a henkel, $399 at this is inserted into the bench vice, with only about 1-2 inches of the blade one wants to start the split, then tapped with a wooden mallet to get thesplit started. next i take the culm section and hold it in front of me, enamelled side towards screw driver doesn't matter, all you need is a hard - chromed steel- shaftwith a handle to help you control things), with the shaft perpendicular to the enamel. it's important to always stay perpendicular so that the edges of the strips are squared, rather than skewed, and to keep the split from "walking". the screw driver handle is in my right hand fingers, my left index finger curled slowly pushed towards the floor, driving the split in front of it. if the split starts to "walk" to one side, keep the skinny side of the spilt parallel to the un-split section, and pull the "fat" strip laterally.the split will naturally walk back to the center (i've split strips evenly in two that were less than .100 to start with). if you want more control, place the cane to be split in the bench vice at a pull the screw driver shaft toward the vice to achieve the split, which will only go up to the clamped area. this is particularly helpful if you have a stubborn node that you think is going to be a problem (if you clamp just past the node, the split will go through the node and stop where you're clamped - "no whoops! that went to far"). using the screw driver shaft as a fulcrum or splitting wedge is much easier on my fingers than trying to pull the strips apart with brute force (especially when doing halves or quarter culms). it also lets you split 32 tip strips out faster than you can believe, very evenly sized, with no discards. hope better explain whichever part doesn't make sense. chris O -----Original Message-----From: Grhghlndr@aol.com 3:43 oandc@msn.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Splitting BambooAll this talk again about splitting methods has got me wondering if anyonedoes it around the round shaft part of the screwdriver and then I push thecane towards the SD and being that it is round the bamboo just slides alongand is very controllable and my splits come out to almost perfect sizeeach more. attest to the accuracy of this method. Bret from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Jul 12 20:01:47 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f6D11kZ21307 (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Book This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. If you are satisfied doing everything the way someone else told you to, justbecause they had a plausible sounding reason or because it is "traditional"(which probably means it dates all the way back to the prehistoric mastersworking in the 1930s), don't get the book. If you like making up your ownmind, based on information rather than custom, you need this book. In my humble opinion. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Book Is the Bob Milward book worth getting?? Thanks Dave 0DocumentEmail I=f you aresatisfied doing everything the way someone else told you to, just =because theyhad a plausible sounding reason or because it is =“traditional” (which probablymeans it dates all the way back to the prehistoric masters working in =the 1930s),don’t get the book. If you like making up your own mind, based on =informationrather than custom, you need this =book. I=n myhumble opinion. B=arry -----OriginalMessage-----From: Davesrods Sent: Thursday, July 12,=2001 3:35PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: =Book Is the Dave= from martinj@aa.net Thu Jul 12 20:31:53 2001 f6D1VqZ21788 Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:35:21 -0700 Subject: RE: undersized ferrules There is no possible way that this method will NOT produce a bell shapedmale ferrule! This may tighten it up (temporarily) but will be more likelyto produce rocking (and a ferrule that needs total replacement) in the nearfuture. If you want to "squash" it out you could use a smooth jawed chucklike on a lathe. I suppose if you could find one, a large drill motor chuckcould work, though I have never seen one. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: undersized ferrules Andrew: I believe I saw a solution to this question on another site about 9 monthsago, and it is similar to the solution Onis provided. Merely tap lightly(but repeatedly, as needed) on the bottom of the male ferrule with ahammer.This supposedly compresses the male ferrule slightly, thereby squashing itlength- wise and increasing the diameter/circumference of the ferrule,creating a tighter fit. Best of luck, Ed Savage (a/k/a bambooneophyte@hotmail.com] ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: undersized ferrules Very creative! Got any ideas for when the male is already glued on? Idon'twant to deform the female at all since the other male is fine, so I don'twant to crimp the female or anything like that. A very thin coating ofsomething on the male that dries really hard might do it...but I haven'tfound the right stuff yet. I tried rustoleum and then lightly sanded itandI no longer have a tick in the ferrule, but I think this is verytemporary...I know, I could just replace the male with the problem... Andy -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:35 AM Subject: Re: undersized ferrules Great Idea, this one is going into file for future reference. Adam----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 7:47 AMSubject: Fwd: undersized ferrules k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:I posted this a year or two ago but for the new list members: If you find you have over sanded and have an undersized male ferrule,youmight try this. Go to an aquarium store and purchase a small bag ofreptile/amphibian sand. It's the very fine sand. Now you need a steelrodjust smaller in diameter than the inside of the male ferrule. Make sureboth ends of the steel rod are square and flat on the end. You only needapiece about 2 or 3 inches long. Now fill the ferrule about 2/3 with thefine sand; enough to fill the section that will fit inside the female.Nowplace the closed end of the ferrule on a solid surface. An oak blockshouldwork well. Place the rod into the ferrule and seat it on the sand. Nowtapthe rod with a small hammer. Gently, a lot of small "pecks" is betterthanone big "whack". The sand spreads the force of the hammer and causes ittoswell. Hit it to hard and you can deform the ferrule but if you aregentle,you can bring it to just the right diameter. Regards, Onis k5vkq@ix.netcom.com from raby@greenvillenc.com Thu Jul 12 21:14:00 2001 f6D2E0Z22444 Subject: lengths This is a multi-part message in MIME format. What are the pros and cons of a 5ft planing form compared to a 6ft form, =and if you were getting started, in rodmaking, which length would you = What are the pros and cons of a5ft = compared to a 6ft form, and if you were getting started, in rodmaking, = from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Jul 12 21:33:37 2001 f6D2XaZ22773 TAA04327; Subject: Re: lengths This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Both are fine. If the price is the same the 6ft will give more =flexibility. A 5' form will be just fine for, well just about =everything.Just dive in an get the one that is available. Adam Vigil Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:19 PMSubject: lengths What are the pros and cons of a 5ft planing form compared to a 6ft =form, and if you were getting started, in rodmaking, which length would = Both are fine. If the price is the same = will give more flexibility. A 5' form will be just fine for, well just = everything. available. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Sandy Raby Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 = PMSubject: lengths What are the pros and cons of a= form compared to a 6ft form, and if you were getting started, in = from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jul 12 21:38:53 2001 f6D2cqZ22967 Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:37:40 -0700 Subject: Re: lengths --------------843E991A3BF21001F4FB8BC4 Alvin and Sandy,I personally chose 72" forms instead of 60". Myreasoning was that building my forms that way would allow side and the smallest stations on the butt side. In theory,that should help provide a little more support when planingout small butt sections and "normal" sized mid sections. Intheory. In reality, as long as your forms are well made, Idon't think the length makes much difference except to thosewho make one piece rods. Harry Boyd Alvin & Sandy Raby wrote: What are the pros and cons of a 5ft planing form comparedto a 6ft form, and if you were getting started, inrodmaking, which length would you choose.thanks --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------843E991A3BF21001F4FB8BC4 Alvin and Sandy, My reasoning was that building my forms that way would allow for a slightoverlap between the largest stations on the tip side and the smalleststations support when planing out small butt sections and "normal" sized mid think the length makes much difference except to those who make one piecerods. Alvin & Sandy Raby wrote: arethe pros and cons of a 5ft planing form compared to a 6ft form, and ifyou were getting started, in rodmaking, which length would youchoose.thanks --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------843E991A3BF21001F4FB8BC4-- from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Jul 12 21:42:36 2001 f6D2gaZ23152 f6D2gYY31535 Subject: Re: lengths My homemade form is only 51" and I have made 8'rods on it.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Alvin & Sandy Raby wrote: What are the pros and cons of a 5ft planingform compared to a 6ft form, and if you weregetting started, in rodmaking, which lengthwould you choose.thanks from timklein@qwest.net Thu Jul 12 22:06:37 2001 f6D36aZ23540 (63.229.224.91) Subject: Re: Getting the Snow White again Tony Spezio wrote: Anybody getting the Snow White message againTrying to pin it down.It has to be coming from one of the lists I am on. Tony - I can tell you that it definitely isn't coming THROUGH the list. Ihave my mail set to digest, so it all comes in one e-mail with eachindividual e-mail attached. None of these individual e-mails havesnow-white. I'm pretty convinced that it's someone ON the list who is sending it outthough (probably not on purpose, but who knows?). Whenever someone asksabout it here, I've usually received it about the same time. The only otherlist to which I'm subscribed is Tom's hand-mill list and I was gettingsnow-white sent to me fairly regularly before I joined there. I generally get very little junk mail at my address, so I doubt it's acoincidence that I seem to get it around the same time as others on THISlist. It's probably someone who we've both corresponded with at one time oranother, who innocently added us to their address book during theconversation. FYI everyone - My kid downloaded a variant of the Love Letter virus a monthor so ago and, somehow, Norton Antivirus missed the virus at download(autoprotect was on and my definitions were up to date) and missed it againwhen I ran a full system scan (VBS files were included in the list of filesto scan). It wasn't until I scanned the actual virus script file itself thatNorton recognized it. I've cleaned up my system, but I was so afraid I'daccidentally pass it on that I deleted my address book before I logged ontothe internet again. I'm not using address book at all until I receive areply from Norton about what might have happened. Good luck with the battle! ---Tim from saweiss@flash.net Thu Jul 12 23:20:20 2001 f6D4KJZ24502 f6D4KHP33868 Subject: Re: lengths Organization: Prodigy Internet This is a multi-part message in MIME format. The only difference the form length would make is in how long a section =you want to plane. This would probably only matter in the planing of =one-piece rods.SteveWhat are the pros and cons of a 5ft planing form compared to a 6ft =form, and if you were getting started, in rodmaking, which length would = The only difference the form length would make is in how long a section you want to plane. This= probably only matter in the planing of one-piece rods.Steve What are the pros and cons of a= form compared to a 6ft form, and if you were getting started, in = from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Jul 13 05:28:24 2001 f6DASNZ27687 sender ) Subject: Re: lengths --------------82A1D5385FCF466B8324FA9E none wrote: The "pro's" are the ability to make 6' 1 pc. rods. The "con's", itcosts more. I would go with the 6'er. Marty Alvin & Sandy Raby wrote: What are the pros and cons of a 5ft planing form compared to a 6ftform, and if you were getting started, in rodmaking, which lengthwould you choose.thanks --------------82A1D5385FCF466B8324FA9E none wrote:The "pro's" are the ability to make 6' 1 pc. rods.The "con's", it costs more. I would go with the 6'er. MartyAlvin & Sandy Raby wrote: arethe pros and cons of a 5ft planing form compared to a 6ft form, and ifyou were getting started, in rodmaking, which length would youchoose.thanks --------------82A1D5385FCF466B8324FA9E-- from jfreeman@cyberport.com Fri Jul 13 06:55:34 2001 f6DBtXZ28730 mail.cyberport.com Subject: Re: Heat treating catching big fish, they just don't make 'em fast enough. Maybe even rollinga long, fat garden hackle down under a bush every now and then. I was tyingsome size 6 dry stones for the Orange Asher hatch on the Rio Grande lastweek and thinking that I needed some real spine to throw these any distance.BIG, NASTY, UGLY - now, that's my kind of fishing. Throw those light dry-flyrods away. If it ain't fast; it ain't worth a damn. Jim----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Heat treating Where everyone is going with this topic puzzles me, but I think thateveryonehas the right slant. Heat treating , whatever it does to the canechemicallyand physically, does impart a more responsive feel. But I am reminded oftheemphasis that our colleagues who make carbon fiber rods place on modulusofelasticity. It seems that each year each manufacturer tries to increasethe MOEof his rods. Now you all know that a rod must bend to project the line.Thepoint where it fails to bend is the end of its usefulness in fly casting.Iremember the first 2 wt Orvis (thank heaven withdrawn almost as fast asitwasconceived.) I ever cast was at the Orvis Shop in San Francisco. It hadattainedthe epitome of MOE and after exaggerated double hauling I was able to gettheline out about 30 ft. But I was exhausted in doing so.Cane can never achieve the MOE that graphite can, and I don't think thatweshould go too far in making rods stiffer and stiffer. A slow parabolictapercan cast the line with more velocity and with LESS effort than your ultrastiffburned rods. I like tham blonde and I like them flamed and I like themtemperedjust up to the color change point. The point is: what do I want from thatrod? I certainly have no wish to denigrate the efforts of any rodmaker to tryto cometo grips with heat treating, but I question if there is any one answer.Certainly there are empirical results of testing that are in opposition,but Ihave a sneaking suspicion that there may truth on each side. Ralph from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Fri Jul 13 09:02:55 2001 f6DE2sZ02293 Subject: Re: Heat treating your fishing sounds like my last date...... losey----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Heat treating andcatching big fish, they just don't make 'em fast enough. Maybe evenrollinga long, fat garden hackle down under a bush every now and then. I wastyingsome size 6 dry stones for the Orange Asher hatch on the Rio Grande lastweek and thinking that I needed some real spine to throw these anydistance.BIG, NASTY, UGLY - now, that's my kind of fishing. Throw those lightdry-flyrods away. If it ain't fast; it ain't worth a damn. Jim----- Original Message -----From: Ralph Moon Cc: and Collecting Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 8:33 PMSubject: Re: Heat treating Where everyone is going with this topic puzzles me, but I think thateveryonehas the right slant. Heat treating , whatever it does to the canechemicallyand physically, does impart a more responsive feel. But I am remindedoftheemphasis that our colleagues who make carbon fiber rods place onmodulusofelasticity. It seems that each year each manufacturer tries to increasethe MOEof his rods. Now you all know that a rod must bend to project the line.Thepoint where it fails to bend is the end of its usefulness in flycasting.Iremember the first 2 wt Orvis (thank heaven withdrawn almost as fastasitwasconceived.) I ever cast was at the Orvis Shop in San Francisco. It hadattainedthe epitome of MOE and after exaggerated double hauling I was able togettheline out about 30 ft. But I was exhausted in doing so.Cane can never achieve the MOE that graphite can, and I don't thinkthatweshould go too far in making rods stiffer and stiffer. A slow parabolictapercan cast the line with more velocity and with LESS effort than yourultrastiffburned rods. I like tham blonde and I like them flamed and I like themtemperedjust up to the color change point. The point is: what do I want fromthatrod? I certainly have no wish to denigrate the efforts of any rodmaker to tryto cometo grips with heat treating, but I question if there is any one answer.Certainly there are empirical results of testing that are in opposition,but Ihave a sneaking suspicion that there may truth on each side. Ralph from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Fri Jul 13 09:22:39 2001 f6DEMcZ03449 13 Jul 2001 07:22:34 PDT Subject: Re: Heat treating Sounds like you might need some pratice reading thewater first. :wrote:your fishing sounds like my last date...... losey----- Original Message -----From: "Jim & Sallyann Freeman" Cc: "and Collecting" Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 8:02 AMSubject: Re: Heat treating nymphs, dredging bottom, andcatching big fish, they just don't make 'em fastenough. Maybe evenrollinga long, fat garden hackle down under a bush everynow and then. I wastyingsome size 6 dry stones for the Orange Asher hatchon the Rio Grande lastweek and thinking that I needed some real spine tothrow these anydistance.BIG, NASTY, UGLY - now, that's my kind of fishing.Throw those lightdry-flyrods away. If it ain't fast; it ain't worth adamn. Jim----- Original Message -----From: Ralph Moon Cc: and Collecting Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 8:33 PMSubject: Re: Heat treating Where everyone is going with this topic puzzlesme, but I think thateveryonehas the right slant. Heat treating , whateverit does to the canechemicallyand physically, does impart a more responsivefeel. But I am remindedoftheemphasis that our colleagues who make carbonfiber rods place on modulusofelasticity. It seems that each year eachmanufacturer tries to increasethe MOEof his rods. Now you all know that a rod mustbend to project the line.Thepoint where it fails to bend is the end of itsusefulness in flycasting.Iremember the first 2 wt Orvis (thank heavenwithdrawn almost as fast asitwasconceived.) I ever cast was at the Orvis Shop inSan Francisco. It hadattainedthe epitome of MOE and after exaggerated doublehauling I was able togettheline out about 30 ft. But I was exhausted indoing so.Cane can never achieve the MOE that graphitecan, and I don't thinkthatweshould go too far in making rods stiffer andstiffer. A slow parabolictapercan cast the line with more velocity and withLESS effort than yourultrastiffburned rods. I like tham blonde and I like themflamed and I like themtemperedjust up to the color change point. The pointis: what do I want fromthatrod? I certainly have no wish to denigrate theefforts of any rodmaker to tryto cometo grips with heat treating, but I question ifthere is any one answer.Certainly there are empirical results of testingthat are in opposition,but Ihave a sneaking suspicion that there may truthon each side. Ralph __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mailhttp://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ from rsgould@cmc.net Fri Jul 13 13:20:37 2001 f6DIKaZ12416 Subject: Re: lengths This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi Alvin and Sandy,The 5ft form is a little easier and lighter to carry around for =demonstration purposes. However they probably cost about the same and =the 6ft form gives more flexibility as to making long rods and more room =to slide the strips endways in the form. I highly recommend that the 6ft =form be used.Ray Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:19 PMSubject: lengths What are the pros and cons of a 5ft planing form compared to a 6ft =form, and if you were getting started, in rodmaking, which length would = Hi Alvin and Sandy,The 5ft form is a little easier and = carry around for demonstration purposes. However they probably cost = same and the 6ft form gives more flexibility as to making long rods and = room to slide the strips endways in the form. I highly recommend that = form be used.Ray ----- Original Message ----- Sandy Raby Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 = PMSubject: lengths What are the pros and cons of a= form compared to a 6ft form, and if you were getting started, in = from homes-sold@home.com Fri Jul 13 13:37:57 2001 f6DIbvZ13187 femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: South Bend Model 24-9 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I have a SB model 24 9' 3 section with 2 tips. HCH or C Other than a =cracked mid section male ferrule it looks to be in fair shape. I don't =know if I should repair it or hang it on the wall. I assume someone =could dupe the ferrule but I'm not sure I could find a matching thread, =looks like some kind of herring bone pattern wrap. Any info on the rod =or suggestions appreciated.Don I have a SB model 24 9' 3 section with = hang it on the wall. I assume someone could dupe the ferrule but I'm not = could find a matching thread, looks like some kind of herring bone = Any info on the rod or suggestions appreciated.Don from rsgould@cmc.net Fri Jul 13 14:27:05 2001 f6DJR4Z14842 Subject: old dog new trick This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi all,I've just returned from the last of my spring fishing trips to the lakes =of British Columbia and I've learned a new (to me)fly fishing technique = chironomid and the technique is to use a floating fly line with a leader =about as long as the water is deep in the place where you are anchored. =The fly is weighted and sinks after it is cast. It is the retrieved very =very slowly. Naturally the best rod to use is a cane rod 8 to 81/2 ft =long with a sensitive tip. I'm amazed at how effective this method is =and it's fun too although casting a fly with a 15ft or 20ft leader is a =challenge. There are two real wizards at perfecting this technique, =Brian Chan and Phillip Rowley both of whom live in B.C. and each of them =has published an excellent book describing the method and the flies.I have no idea if this method is used elsewhere, but it surely works in =B.C.Ray Hi all,I've just returned from the last of my = fishing trips to the lakes of British Columbia and I've learned a new = fishing technique for catching those lovely Kamloops trout. The fly used = called a chironomid and the technique is to use a floating fly line with = leader about as long as the water is deep in the place where you are = The fly is weighted and sinks after it is cast. It is the retrieved very = slowly. Naturally the best rod to use is a cane rod 8 to 81/2 ft long = sensitive tip. I'm amazed at how effective this method is and it's fun = although casting a fly with a 15ft or 20ft leader is a = two real wizards at perfecting this technique, Brian Chan and Phillip = both of whom live in B.C. and each of them has published an excellent = describing the method and the flies.I have no idea if this method is used = but it surely works in B.C.Ray from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Jul 13 15:31:27 2001 f6DKVQZ17222 f6DKV7Y09903;Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:31:07 -0500 "Flytyer@direct-pest.com" ,"tri-fly@listserv.oit.unc.edu" ,"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Anybody from Kingsport Got a message from one of my East Coast fly tyingbuddies that just moved to Kingsport Tn. Anyoneclose that might like to contact him.He is a real good tyer and is wanting someone totie with and fish with.Contact me off listTony FlyTyr@southshore.com from Canerods@aol.com Fri Jul 13 15:35:38 2001 f6DKZbZ17509 Subject: Re: I have an idea! In a message dated 7/11/01 2:24:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, fbcwin@3g.quik.com writes: Shawn,Thanks for the clarification. Okay guys, let's send Shawn some pictures. from this list,the following rod makers jump to mind, and excuse me in advance for not thinking of the many Ihave surely overlooked. George BarnesWayne CattanachRay GouldBill FinkJohn ZimnyBob NunleyHank WoolmanDave LeClairStuart KirkfieldRob HoffhinesJoe PerrigoChris BogartEd HartzellAJ ThramerRalph Moon Chris McDowellTom SmithwickChuck IrvineMike ShawJon Parker dgb In a message dated7/11/01 2:24:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, fbcwin@3g.quik.com writes: Shawn, let's send Shawn some the following rod makers jump to mind, and excuse me in advance fornot thinking of the many Ihave surely overlooked. George BarnesWayne CattanachRay GouldBill FinkJohn ZimnyBob NunleyHank WoolmanDave LeClairStuart KirkfieldRob HoffhinesJoe PerrigoChris BogartEd HartzellAJ ThramerRalph Moon Chris McDowellTom SmithwickChuck IrvineMike ShawJon Parker dgb from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Fri Jul 13 15:40:41 2001 f6DKeeZ17873 Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:40:37 -0700 claiming to be "oemcomputer" Subject: Re: lengths This is a multi-part message in MIME format. The cost to the forms is in the machining, not the steel. I would go =longer than shorter. You never know if you're going to get into =building one pieces. RegardsTom AusfeldRochester, NY Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:19 PMSubject: lengths What are the pros and cons of a 5ft planing form compared to a 6ft =form, and if you were getting started, in rodmaking, which length would = The cost to the forms is in the machining, not going to get into building one pieces. RegardsTom AusfeldRochester, NY ----- Original Message ----- & Sandy Raby = Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 = PMSubject: lengths What are the pros and cons ofa = form compared to a 6ft form, and if you were getting started, in = from Canerods@aol.com Fri Jul 13 15:53:41 2001 f6DKreZ18432 Subject: Bob McElvain ?? Bob, I tried to reply to you regarding the Bishop rodmakers gathering, but my email comes back to me with a message that your email address is non- existant. Don Burns Bob, I tried to reply to you regarding the Bishop rodmakers gathering, butmy email comes back to me with a message that your email address is non-existant. Don Burns from rextutor@about.com Fri Jul 13 16:05:23 2001 f6DL5MZ18951 (NPlex 5.5.029) 14:00:00 -0700 Subject: Oven Melt down. I was so pleased to finally get the thermostat to talk to the mica strip on my bamboo oven. I ran it for about 30 minutes to test with a meat thermometer to just get a feel for the temperatures it would reach. The thermometer is rough but I would estimate accurate within 50 degrees. When I stopped it, it read 375. But the problem is the insulation just dissipated. The door had a hole in it. Basically it was a level 3 disaster. There was never open flames or smoke , nor was the odor all that bad. It was out in the garage and I have a fan So I have the wrong insulation , right ? What should I use ? It appears to be compressed fiberglass , new from the hardware store. It looks like what you would put in the wall to keep a building plastic level . It had a foil backing .TIASign up fora free About Email account at http://About.com from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Fri Jul 13 17:28:17 2001 f6DMSGZ21190 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) Subject: Exotic Woods I just got a notice from Grizzly that they are having a sale on exotic woodssuch as cocobolo, lacewood, and bocote. I'm not to the point of needingany reel seat fillers yet, but thought maybe someone on the list might care.Supposedly the details are on their website www.grizzly.com but I have notgone to check it out. No financial interest, etc..... TAM from e.estlow@worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 13 17:38:29 2001 f6DMcSZ21483 Subject: Carmichael/Garrison Video List: I seem to remember a thread a while back that discussed, among other things, a video of the documentary that Hoagy Carmichael did of Ev Garrison at work. Is this video generally available? If so, where might I order it? Thanks for any information you can provide. Please respond off-list if you feel it's more appropriate. Best regards,-Ed Estlow from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Jul 13 17:44:26 2001 f6DMiPZ21706 Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:44:16 -0700 Subject: Re: I have an idea! --------------030280DCD81031E2C3D36BC1 Don, You're right, of course. Each of those fellows shouldbe added to the list. My apologies to these and any othersI have mistakenly omitted. Harry Canerods@aol.com wrote: Chris McDowellTom SmithwickChuck IrvineMike ShawJon Parker dgb --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------030280DCD81031E2C3D36BC1 Don, I have mistakenly omitted. Canerods@aol.com wrote:ChrisMcDowellTomSmithwickChuck IrvineMike ShawJon Parker dgb --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." -- Bamboo Rods --