Sat, 25 Aug 2001 20:35:38 -0400 claiming to be "oemcomputer" 2001 "Rodmakers discussion group" Subject: Re: Best tips? I agree. tom----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Best tips? Tom, I think that we alreadt need to change the name to NASTI. NodeAppreciation Society, Throughly International. I think that NASTI is a neater name for thisDick Fuhrman ----- Original Message -----From: "Jojo DeLancier" Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 3:12 PMSubject: Re: Best tips? LOL! I wanna' join! See the node,Be the node. M-D Hello all, I'm sorry but I strongly disagree that vice straightening isdetrimentaltocane. I guess if you REALLY crank down on it, yes you'll do somedamage.But over extending a piece of cane with your hands when straighteningwillalso do damage.I still don't get the node hassle. I don't find this a nerve rackingpartof the process. I'm on a mission to clear the reputation of the node.Nodes are your friends. Be not afraid of the node. Tom Ausfeld , president of N.A.S. (Node Appreciation Society)rochester, ny ----- Original Message -----From: Max Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 4:19 PMSubject: Re: Best tips? All, Much of the "stress" of straightening nodes might be relieved ifyou: 1) reduce the dimensions of your strips as much as possible beforeheatstraightening:2) realize that straightening nodes should not be thought ofas a "once and done" task--repeated heating while the dimensionsarestilllarge can damage a node unnecessarily;3) even the most troublesome nodes can be straightened quicklyandeffortlessly after the planing is underway--all the way up untilthefinal020" Do not use a vice to press nodes, as vices cannot recognizeplasticity,orhow much pressure may be "too much." Learn to work with yourhands.Theyare capable of learning what a vice cannot. Bill san, I completely agree with your opinion about vising nodes.I still believe that the node is stiffer than internodal part whenitisnatural.Pressing and repeated heat treating will weaken the node very much,Ibelieve. This is one of my methods of straightening nodes, adjacent nodesafterplaning is started; especially for a dimple at adjacent node. Prepare a brass or NS (or any) round bar stock with around 0.78diarmeter,2-3 inches long.Turn it on the lathe using threading byte (60deg. point byte).Just make two or three straight V channels (not a thread) aroundthemiddlepart of the bar stock with different depths (for a tip and a buttstrip),each V channel is apart about 0.4" to each other.Ask SWMBO to use her clothes iron. Put the bar stock on the flattable.Put a node (dimple) part of a triangle strip to be straighten, intheappropriate depth of V channel of the bar stock with enamel sideup.Put the well heated iron on the dimple and move the iron forward andbackuntil the dimple part is well heated. The enamel side of thedimplewillbe aligned (straighten) with the sole of the iron. manner.The completed strip tend to bent at the node since adjacent dimpleisstraightened. Then put the strip in the V channel of planing formandpress with clothes iron from enamel side of the strip to straightenthebend.Though this is not perfect, it works sometimes.Using heat and hand is of-course quicker than this. Max from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Sat Aug 25 19:54:07 2001 f7Q0s6Z00356 Sat, 25 Aug 2001 20:52:29 -0400 claiming to be "oemcomputer" 2001 Subject: Re: Best tips? All, I didn't mean to sound argumentitive with the node pressing thing, nor did Imean to sound like a know it all. I was merely trying to point out the wayI do it and why I do it. There is no RIGHT way. There are quite few oflist members who have yet to build a rod and read every word and formopinions. The amount of information is overwhelming. If I see somethingthat doesn't jive with my line of thinking, I'll speak up. If I'm wrong,I'll stand corrected. Everybody learns, ideas are exchanged and sometimeseven added upon. This is the great thing about rod building, you can do ityour own way, and if your rod throws a loop and catches fish, who reallycares if your pressed your nodes or not. Regards, Tom, Pres. NASTI ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Best tips? I am not sure that this qualifies me for membership of this illustrioussociety but my tip to newbies is not to worry about nodes and all the jigs devicesI have most of them in the corner of my garage along with water troughsforsoaking, flattened vice etc. I see two problems with flattening nodes by pressure. The first is that itinvolves heating a section of the rod and most likely giving it somedifferent characteristics then the rest of the section. I am not too sureabout this. The second , and more important reason is that regardless ofhowcareful or what technique you use every now and then a slight crack isheardwhen pressing nodes. This can be certain to happen when you only have 6strips for a rod section and no matching spares. After trying lots of different techniques to flatten nodes I now do notbother with pressing. I file the nodes almost flat before splitting theculmas per Wayne C. book . After splitting I straighten any major kinks in thestrips, or reject the kinked strips if I have enough spares, but do notbother about wide bends or curves. I form the rough triangles and heattreat, then sand flat the node areas and the enamel side before finalplanning. This was good enough for some of the rod makers such as Hardy ,and the Garrison video shows him filing down the nodes after heattreating.It may not give "invisible" nodes , but is much easier for newbies andsomelike me who have been making rods for a while. Ian K----- Original Message -----From: "Dick & Kathy Fuhrman" Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 9:11 AMSubject: Re: Best tips? Tom, I think that we alreadt need to change the name to NASTI. NodeAppreciation Society, Throughly International. I think that NASTI is a neater name for thisDick Fuhrman from sallred@mindspring.com Sat Aug 25 20:54:00 2001 f7Q1rxZ01751 Subject: Dickerson 6611 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Could someone point me to a source for a 6611 taper? I have not been =able to locate one in any of the usual place I look. Thanks,Scott Allred Could someone point me to a source for= look. Thanks,ScottAllred from rsgould@cmc.net Sat Aug 25 20:54:34 2001 f7Q1sYZ01831 Subject: Re: Quad planing form Hi Rick,Think about it this way: the 90 degree groove is really only used to polishoff the enamel while the strip cutting is done with a left hand 45 degreegroove with one leg vertical and one right hand 45 degree groove with oneleg vertical. Tain't easy !Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Quad planing form Is there any advice an experienced list member could give to me onmaking steel planing forms for quads? I have an idea that I couldsquare up two sets of bars and use a 90* cutting tool to cut the leftand right grooved bars, but I can't find the 90* bit, nor am I sure thatI could mate the bars up in anything other than single pairs. In otherwords, how could I true up two sets of bars, drill and tap them, thenswap bars to make the 90* groove. I don't think I could drill and tapthem that precisely that they would mate up with anything but theoriginal partnered bar. Am I overanalyzing this or are there any tipsthat one could give to help me feel more assured about this method? Rick C. from SBDunn@aol.com Sat Aug 25 23:57:25 2001 f7Q4vOZ04594 (25512) Subject: Re: Grooving the final planing form I find this interesting because I am in the middle of rehabing some of the very first Bootstrap forms. I have already filed the top and bottom of the forms until they are flat. What I planned on doing next was to epoxy the triangular file to a flat block of some type, color the surfaces of the grooves in the forms with a marker, open the forms, and then file one side of the groove until all of the color is gone from the side of the groove. Then I will do the same to the other side. I would have the flat block riding on both side of the form, but only filing on one side at a time. What do you guys think? groove becomes too deep), I plan on disassembling the forms and filing the surfaces that touch each other until the groove is back to an acceptable depth. I hope I have stated this clearly. Regards, Steve. I find this interestingbecause I am in the middle of rehabing some of the bottom of the What I planned on doing next was to epoxy the triangular file to a flatblock with a marker, open the forms, and then file one side of the groove until all of thecolor the other but only the groove becomes too deep), I plan on disassembling the forms and filingthe surfaces that touch each other until the groove is back to anacceptable depth. I hope I have stated this clearly. Regards, Steve. from Pfdad@aol.com Sun Aug 26 07:40:45 2001 f7QCeiZ08600 Subject: Degree symbol Hello List: postings, e.g. 60*, try holding down the ALT key and then typing 248 on keypad and letting go of the ALT key. You should get the real degreesymbol=. Not a biggie, but hope this helps. Phil FentressMemphis TN Hello List: postings, e.g. 60*, try holding down the ALT key and then typing 248 degr=ee symbol < Phil FentressMemphis TN from dickay@alltel.net Sun Aug 26 08:00:14 2001 f7QD0DZ08892 srv.alltel.net Sun, 26 Aug 2001 08:00:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Grooving the final planing form This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Steve, If you do it that way how will you match the bottom of the =groove? In other words you could have one side of the form deeper than =the other side. This may cause the strip to set incorrectly in the form =and you would not have true 60=B0 strips. (See Phil a good degree sign) =I think that you need to file both sides at the same time and then file =the top or bottom of the forms to get the depth that you need.Dick Fuhrman Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 11:57 PMSubject: Re: Grooving the final planing form I find this interesting because I am in the middle of rehabing some of = very first Bootstrap forms. I have already filed the top and bottom = What I planned on doing next was to epoxy the triangular file to a = of some type, color the surfaces of the grooves in the forms with a = open the forms, and then file one side of the groove until all of the = is gone from the side of the groove. Then I will do the same to the = side. I would have the flat block riding on both side of the form, = groove becomes too deep), I plan on disassembling the forms and filing = surfaces that touch each other until the groove is back to an = file the top or bottom of the forms to get the depth that you =need.Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- SBDunn@aol.com Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001= PMSubject: Re: Grooving the final = formI findthis = because I am in the middle of rehabing some of the very first = the grooves in the forms with a marker, open the forms, and then = side of the groove until all of the color is gone from the side of = have the flat block riding on both side of the form, but only = it take a lot of filing to get a true 60* groove (i.e the groove = too deep), I plan on disassembling the forms and filing the = I hope I have stated this clearly. Regards, = from jbbamboo47@yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 09:54:08 2001 f7QEs7Z10500 2001 07:54:08 PDT Subject: Re: Dickerson 6611 --- Scott & Marta Allred wrote:Could someone point me to a source for a 6611 taper?I have not been able to locate one in any of theusual place I look. Thanks,Scott Allredyes in the lovely reed by jack howell on page 45. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ from cmj@post11.tele.dk Sun Aug 26 10:20:30 2001 f7QFKSZ10974 +0200 Subject: Going up and down This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Gents Browsing Ray Gould=B4s "Constructing Canerods" I just readQuote"What becomes obvious when looking at the graph higher line size is shift the whole curve upwards 0.005" to0.006" Unquote. Reading this I simply had to activate Hexrod - my favouriteprogramme for tweeking rod tapers, to see if the same resultscould be obtained here. he answer is no. According to Hexroda change of line size results in a change of 0,010" to 0,012"in the across flats dimension at most stations of a taper. Is my beliefin Wayne C=B4s nifty piece of software unfounded? Now, both Ray and Wayne C. are gents that I hold in high esteemas very skilled rodmakers - but they seem to disagree on thisone. So all of You guys who have converted tapers to and fro, pleasetell us about Your experiences. This one need to be solved - ifa solution can be found. regards, Carsten Jorgensen Gents Browsing Ray Gould=B4s "Constructing= readQuote"What becomes obvious whenlooking = graph go to the nexthigher line size is shift the whole = 0.005" to0.006" Unquote. Reading this I simply had to activate = favouriteprogramme for tweeking rod tapers, to= same resultscould be obtained here. he answer is = to Hexroda change of line size results in a = to 0,012"in the across flats dimension at most = taper. Is my beliefin Wayne C=B4s nifty piece of unfounded? Now, both Ray and Wayne C. are gents= high esteemas very skilled rodmakers - but they = disagree on thisone. So all of You guys who have converted = fro, pleasetell us about Your experiences. This = solved - ifa solution can be found. regards, Carsten =Jorgensen from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 10:36:46 2001 f7QFajZ11320 IAA10005; Subject: Re: Best Tips-straight sections This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Mike, I am using Epon. You simply take a rag damp with white vinegar and rub =the blank down. This will remove the glue from the outside of the blank. =It does not interfere with the glue binding the splines. Adam Vigil Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 7:51 AMSubject: Re: Best Tips-straight sections How do you prevent the section from sticking to the form and your = Mike, I am using Epon. You simply take a rag = white vinegar and rub the blank down. This will remove the glue from the = splines. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- MasjC1@aol.com Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001= AMSubject: Re: Best Tips-straight = sectionsAdam, How do you prevent the section from = to the form and your compression bar? Mark from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 10:57:55 2001 f7QFvsZ11813 IAA02348; Subject: Re: Going up and down This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Carsten, Bob Milward also goes for the .005-.006 in step it up to the next line =size. Adam Vigil Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 8:26 AMSubject: Going up and down Gents Browsing Ray Gould=B4s "Constructing Canerods" I just readQuote"What becomes obvious when looking at the graph higher line size is shift the whole curve upwards 0.005" to0.006" Unquote. Reading this I simply had to activate Hexrod - my favouriteprogramme for tweeking rod tapers, to see if the same resultscould be obtained here. he answer is no. According to Hexroda change of line size results in a change of 0,010" to 0,012"in the across flats dimension at most stations of a taper. Is my =beliefin Wayne C=B4s nifty piece of software unfounded? Now, both Ray and Wayne C. are gents that I hold in high esteemas very skilled rodmakers - but they seem to disagree on thisone. So all of You guys who have converted tapers to and fro, pleasetell us about Your experiences. This one need to be solved - ifa solution can be found. regards, Carsten Jorgensen Carsten, Bob Milward also goes for the .005-.006= up to the next line size. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- J=F8rgensen Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 = AMSubject: Going up and =down Gents Browsing Ray Gould=B4s "Constructing= just readQuote"What becomes obvious when = graph go to the nexthigher line size is shift the whole = 0.005" to0.006" Unquote. Reading this I simply had to activate = favouriteprogramme for tweeking rod tapers,to = same resultscould be obtained here. he answer is = According to Hexroda change of line size results in a = 0,010" to 0,012"in the across flats dimension at most= a taper. Is my beliefin Wayne C=B4s nifty piece of = unfounded? Now, both Ray and Wayne C. are gents= in high esteemas very skilled rodmakers - but they = disagree on thisone. So all of You guys who have converted= and fro, pleasetell us about Your experiences. This = be solved - ifa solution can befound. regards, Jorgensen from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 11:42:39 2001 f7QGgcZ12602 JAA24664 Subject: NASTI This is a multi-part message in MIME format. A little while ago the question was put " Why do guys make nodeless = I think the name N.A.S.T.I for your organization answers that question =quite accurately. But I think N.A.S.T.I really should stand for "Node Are Still Truly =Irritating" "To Node, or not to Node: that is the question: / Whether 't is nobler =in the mind to suffer / The Node and it outrageous irritation" Bet you did not know that Shakespeare was a cane rod maker. Adam Vigil I think the name N.A.S.T.I for your = answers that question quite accurately. But I think N.A.S.T.I really should = Are Still Truly Irritating" "To Node, or not to = question: / Whether 't is nobler in the mind to suffer / The Node and it = outrageous irritation" Bet you did not know that Shakespeare= rod maker. AdamVigil from rmcelvain@uswest.net Sun Aug 26 13:49:58 2001 f7QInvZ14957 (63.230.4.174) Subject: Glueing Rubber Butt Caps I'm sorry but this is not about bamboo, I say this in advance withapologies to all. I built a spey rod and used quick-set epoxy to glue the grip in place. Theepoxy did not bond to the rubber butt cap. Can anyone suggest a betteradhesive? Thanks in advance. I tried building a 12 foot spey rod but the heavy butt section was afailure. I had large glue line gaps at several nodes where the strips wereso stiff that binding would not compress the slight curve left afterstraightening. Also the butt section had the heft and weight of a shovelhandle. I am not done, I may try again, I still have the mid and tipsections. Thanks, Bob McElvain from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Sun Aug 26 14:29:59 2001 f7QJTvZ15929 Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:29:57 +0100 Subject: Re: Glueing Rubber Butt Caps Never ever use quick set epoxy......it's quite useless !Use slow set epoxy ( 24hr plus cure time ) and make sure the butt cap isa tight fit before gluing.Epoxy adhesives require a really tight fit andwithout this their bond strength is never realised.........Paul Bob McElvain wrote: I'm sorry but this is not about bamboo, I say this in advance withapologies to all. I built a spey rod and used quick-set epoxy to glue the grip in place. Theepoxy did not bond to the rubber butt cap. Can anyone suggest a betteradhesive? Thanks in advance. I tried building a 12 foot spey rod but the heavy butt section was afailure. I had large glue line gaps at several nodes where the strips wereso stiff that binding would not compress the slight curve left afterstraightening. Also the butt section had the heft and weight of a shovelhandle. I am not done, I may try again, I still have the mid and tipsections. Thanks, Bob McElvain from jojo@ipa.net Sun Aug 26 18:07:40 2001 f7QN7eZ20268 Subject: Re: Degree symbol This is a multi-part message in MIME format. One may also hold the right Alt key, the right or left Shift key, and =press the colon/semi-colon key to get a =B0 symbol. M-D postings, e.g. 60*, try holding down the ALT key and then typing 248 = keypad and letting go of the ALT key. You should get the real degree = One may also hold the= M-D Pfdad@aol.com try holding down the ALT key and then typing 248 on the keypad and = Memphis TN from jojo@ipa.net Sun Aug 26 18:24:50 2001 f7QNOnZ20840 Subject: Re: NASTI This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Adam, This will be your only warning! This type of denigration of the node =will no longer be tolerated. Please take heed. Just because you're not =paranoid doesn't mean we're not watching you. Signed, The anonymous defenders of the Node from NASTI A little while ago the question was put " Why do guys make nodeless = I think the name N.A.S.T.I for your organization answers that question =quite accurately. But I think N.A.S.T.I really should stand for "Node Are Still Truly =Irritating" "To Node, or not to Node: that is the question: / Whether 't is nobler =in the mind to suffer / The Node and it outrageous irritation" Bet you did not know that Shakespeare was a cane rod maker. Adam Vigil Adam, This will be your only = type of denigration of the node will no longer be tolerated. Please take = you. Signed, The anonymousdefenders = from NASTI Vigil I think the name N.A.S.T.I for your = answers that question quite accurately. But I think N.A.S.T.I really should = "Node Are Still Truly Irritating" "To Node, or not to= the question: / Whether 't is nobler in the mind to suffer / The Node = outrageous irritation" Bet you did not know thatShakespeare = rod maker. Adam =Vigil from ajthramer@hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 19:44:05 2001 f7R0i4Z22210 Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:44:01 -0700 Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:44:01 GMT Subject: Re: Glueing Rubber Butt Caps FILETIME=[5D4827B0:01C12E91] PliobondA.J. From: "Bob McElvain" Subject: Glueing Rubber Butt CapsDate: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:51:11 -0600 I'm sorry but this is not about bamboo, I say this in advance withapologies to all. I built a spey rod and used quick-set epoxy to glue the grip in place. Theepoxy did not bond to the rubber butt cap. Can anyone suggest a betteradhesive? Thanks in advance. I tried building a 12 foot spey rod but the heavy butt section was afailure. I had large glue line gaps at several nodes where the strips wereso stiff that binding would not compress the slight curve left afterstraightening. Also the butt section had the heft and weight of a shovelhandle. I am not done, I may try again, I still have the mid and tipsections. Thanks, Bob McElvain _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from Nodewrrior@aol.com Sun Aug 26 20:03:19 2001 f7R13JZ22789 Subject: To clean handles I tried a new idea for cleaning a dirty cork handle today, and it seems to work really well. I've reinvented the wheel a few times on the list, so it's probably nothing new...Rather than use a harsh detergent, I tried Murphy's oil soap. It cleaned up really nicely, still some darkness in the pits, but I like the idea that it is less likely to strip moisture from the cork. The rod was one of my early ones and therefore only a few years old. But I'd be interested to know how it works it on a vintage handle. Rob Hoffhines from bamboorods@saber.net Sun Aug 26 20:46:30 2001 f7R1kTZ23780 Subject: Bill Harms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Probably already mentioned on the list, but congratulations to Bill for =his work being featured in a national magazine. Very fine work, Bill.Regards,Chris Raine Probably already mentioned on the= Regards,Chris =Raine from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Aug 26 21:16:06 2001 f7R2G5Z24753 (authenticated) Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:09:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Bill Harms --------------9E9F442E281BB10D1922E184 Chris, Tell us more. Which national magazine? I'd like toread the article or at least look at the pictures.... And congratulations in advance, Bill! Harry Chris Raine wrote: Probably already mentioned on the list, butcongratulations to Bill for his work being featured in anational magazine. Very fine work, Bill. --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------9E9F442E281BB10D1922E184 Chris, I'd like to read the article or at least look at the pictures.... Chris Raine wrote: already mentioned on the list, but congratulations to Bill for his work Bill.--"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..." -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------9E9F442E281BB10D1922E184-- from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sun Aug 26 22:07:40 2001 f7R37dZ26073 Subject: Re: To clean handles Definitely. It is the best I've tried so far. It also is good for generalgrime removal so that you can asses the condition of a rod without damageto a less than stable varnish finish. -DougAt 09:03 PM 8/26/01 EDT, Nodewrrior@aol.com wrote:I tried a new idea for cleaning a dirty cork handle today, and it seems to work really well. I've reinvented the wheel a few times on the list, so it's probably nothing new...Rather than use a harsh detergent, I tried Murphy's oil soap. It cleaned up really nicely, still some darkness in the pits, but I like the idea that it is less likely to strip moisture from the cork. The rod was one of my early ones and therefore only a few years old. But I'd be interested to know howit works it on a vintage handle. Rob Hoffhines from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 22:38:31 2001 f7R3cUZ27085 UAA20706; Subject: Re: Best Tips-straight sections This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Dave, Nope, wipe it down with white vinegar right out of the binder. Roll a =1/2" thick piece of plywood over the blank several times to get it =straight, apply pressure with my thumb along each flat to remove any =twist. Place in preset form and give it a couple strip with the ole =thumb again and place the bar on top and walk away. I check it every 30 =min or so and flip in the form. With Epon you have several hours to work =with it. If there are any persistent twist I place a quick clamp at one =end of the blank and take the twist out, then place another clamp at the = The whole procedure takes minutes to do. Credit for this idea goes to Carol Connor of Canada. I had to look that =up! Adam Vigil Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 1:34 PMSubject: Re: Best Tips-straight sections Adam,Is the string off the blank when you rub it down?Dave-----Original Message-----From: Adam Vigil Date: Sunday, August 26, 2001 10:37 AMSubject: Re: Best Tips-straight sections Mike, I am using Epon. You simply take a rag damp with white vinegar and =rub the blank down. This will remove the glue from the outside of the =blank. It does not interfere with the glue binding the splines. Adam Vigil Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 7:51 AMSubject: Re: Best Tips-straight sections How do you prevent the section from sticking to the form and your = Dave, Nope, wipe it down with white vinegar = the binder. Roll a 1/2" thick piece of plywood over the blank several = get it straight, apply pressure with my thumb along each flat to remove = twist. Place in preset form and give it a couple strip with the ole = and place the bar on top and walk away. I check it every 30 min or so = in the form. With Epon you have several hours to work with it. If there = persistent twist I place a quick clamp at one end of the blank and take = twist out, then place another clamp at the other end of the twist. And = bar on the rest of the blank. The whole procedure takes minutes do. = Canada. I had to look that up! Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Norling ; MasjC1@aol.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 = PMSubject: Re: Best Tips-straight = sections Adam,Is the= blank when you rub it down?Dave -----Original = MasjC1@aol.com <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sunday, August 26, 2001 10:37 AMSubject: Re: Tips-straight sectionsMike, I am using Epon. You simply take a = with white vinegar and rub the blank down. This will remove the glue = the outside of the blank. It does not interfere with the glue = splines. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- = Sent: Saturday, August 25, = AMSubject: Re: Best = sectionsAdam, How do you prevent thesection = Cole = from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 22:44:25 2001 f7R3iOZ27388 UAA09695 Subject: JC Boegeman This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Anyone have any experince with the microlathe from JC Boegeman? The guy=in the planning form ads. Adam Vigil Anyone have any experince with the = JC Boegeman? The guy in the planning form ads. AdamVigil from bob@downandacross.com Mon Aug 27 07:37:43 2001 f7RCbgZ04272 Aug 2001 08:38:06 -0400 Subject: Degree symbol tip f7RCbhZ04273 60Ÿ , 90ŸWow, that was neat. from gjm80301@yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 10:07:52 2001 f7RF7pZ10560 2001 08:07:53 PDT Subject: Shrinkage of soaked strips Hi folks, I just rough-planed my first soaked butt strips a couple of days agoand getting ready to work on the mids and trying to decide how tosize them. I was wondering what shrinkage to really expect. I don'twant to just over- estimate. I know the the figure of 20% has been discussed. So far, with twodays of drying, my butt strips are only down about 4%. What have yousoakers experienced? Thanks Jerry __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ from lblove@omniglobal.net Mon Aug 27 10:11:06 2001 f7RFB5Z10910 Subject: RE: Glueing Rubber Butt Caps Or 3M super weatherstrip cement,the yellow stuff Brad -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Glueing Rubber Butt Caps PliobondA.J. From: "Bob McElvain" Subject: Glueing Rubber Butt CapsDate: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:51:11 -0600 I'm sorry but this is not about bamboo, I say this in advance withapologies to all. I built a spey rod and used quick-set epoxy to glue the grip in place. Theepoxy did not bond to the rubber butt cap. Can anyone suggest a betteradhesive? Thanks in advance. I tried building a 12 foot spey rod but the heavy butt section was afailure. I had large glue line gaps at several nodes where the strips wereso stiff that binding would not compress the slight curve left afterstraightening. Also the butt section had the heft and weight of a shovelhandle. I am not done, I may try again, I still have the mid and tipsections. Thanks, Bob McElvain _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Aug 27 10:34:51 2001 f7RFYoZ12544 Subject: Re: Worthy Questions Wayne,I've been flaming cane for many years now plus heat treating at 275 degrees far. for 25-30 min. I have a 71/2' for a 5wf flamed rod that I made 10 years ago and it has caught around 5000 trout up to 20". I've repaired it twice after falling once and poking it into tree branches another time, It's action has stayed the same with a short period in my oven at 150* f. 2years ago I consider Milward's fear of flaming damage to be somewhat overblown.If anyone has any other experiences I'd like to hear 'em.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Aug 27 10:34:52 2001 f7RFYpZ12545 Subject: Re: Getting bored Ralph.I've been keying my rods to wf line wgts. I find that a wf5 takes a dt6 to get a similar action. Just this old bird's observation-could be I need to learn to cast.Regards,Hank. from bhoy551@earthlink.net Mon Aug 27 10:53:02 2001 f7RFr1Z13898 Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:52:54 -0400 Subject: Lathe tooling? FILETIME=[558498E0:01C12F10] OK, guys. I'm on the verge of ordering a 7X12 lathe from grizzley (before their summer sale ends) I intend to use it for basic grip and ferruling operations, but would like to eventually make ferrules and reelseat hardware. Any suggestions as to the tooling I should get to start? I figure I'll need a tailstock chucka couple of turning bits--It takes 3/8" bits.a cutoff bar (Grizzley only sells bars down to 1/2" -- will this fit a 3/8" tool holder? What series and sizes of collets will I need for ferrules, say 12 thru 16/64? I am an absolute novice, but I've done a lot of reading on the various lathe sites about the capabilities and limitations of these machines. Any advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated. Bill Hoy from gjm80301@yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 13:31:11 2001 f7RIVAZ21336 2001 11:31:12 PDT Subject: Re: Shrinkage of soaked strips Hi Harry, I'm trying to figure out how big I need to make the roughed-outstrips wet to achieve my target when they are then dried. Forexample, I want the strips for the mid sections of 2 rods I'm doingto end up with a height of .171 (width of .197). What should I planeto, wet, that will end up at .171 after drying and heat-treating? IfI went with the 20% shrinkage #, I would need strips of .214 height(.247 width) and that seems really big. If no one has taken a hard look, what I'll do is measure and marksome raw strips, soak them, and re-measure to see how much theybloated. The strips that shrank 4% were huge butt strips and soaked more wehn dried. Jerry Jerry--- Harry Boyd wrote:Jerry, I'm not clear what "shrinkage" you mean.... Are you talkingaboutshrinking due to water absorption during the soaking? Or shrinkingduringheat treating that will actually change the residual moisturecontent of thebamboo? I soak my strips, rough plane to 60* triangles, heat at approx200*F for2-3 hours, then heat treat at 375*F for a chosen time. All is donein thesame day. The soaked strips lose almost all the water theyabsorped within2 hours of being removed from the tub. Then I final plane, etc. I suspect that you've accomplished all the shrinkage possible from airdrying. The additional shrinking comes only as you heat treat. Hope this helps,Harry Jerry Madigan wrote: Hi folks, I just rough-planed my first soaked butt strips a couple of daysagoand getting ready to work on the mids and trying to decide how tosize them. I was wondering what shrinkage to really expect. Idon'twant to just over- estimate. I know the the figure of 20% has been discussed. So far, withtwodays of drying, my butt strips are only down about 4%. What haveyousoakers experienced? Thanks Jerry __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo!Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ from gjm80301@yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 14:20:26 2001 f7RJKPZ24330 2001 12:20:17 PDT Subject: Re: Shrinkage of soaked strips Tony, Actually, the 20% shrinkage quoted by some sounded very large to meand the anecdotal evidence that I have seen so far says it is toobig. I'll bet that when they said 20%, that was meant to includethree things: 1. The shrinkage caused by drying soaked, bloated strips (that lookslike 5% to me now) 2. The shrinkage you get anyway by heat-treating "dry" strips - thebinding thread definitely loosens up 3. The oversize you need to leave for final planing. Adding all of those up, the 20% sounds more reasonable - you just usea straight .030 for that. Thanks, Jerry --- Tony Spezio wrote:Jerry,I started soaking after much deliberating a whilewith my 4 Th. rod. I willnever go back to dry planing. I am approaching rod50 now.This what I do. If it works for you have at it.I Soak the sticks for about 4 days. Straighten,Flatten and bevel the 60* all at one time. I havea home made 60* hand beveler that can take .030 ona pass. I straighten and bevel two strips then twomore till I have all 18 done. This takes about1:45 . from the 60* beveler I go right to theplaning form and hand plane to about .030 oversize. I just eyeball the oversize. These stripsare still wet. I then bind them with the pith sideout and put them in the oven at about 190 to 200F.When I don't see any more water vapor coming out Iremove the bundles, open and re-bind with theenamel side out. Go right to heat treat, 375*F for12 minuets, six and six. These are blond rods.Come out with a nice honey color. from there, Iscrape the enamel, finish the taper and glue. Cando this all in a 4 hour session. I pace myself soI can heat treat, plane the taper and glue in onesession. That way, I don't need to worry aboutmoisture entering. I live 50' from the river. IfI don't do it all in one session I hang the wetbundles and dry them the next day and finish withgluing the blank.I know this may not answer your question on howmuch oversize to leave the strips but I have nothad any go undersize. The final dry planning takes from five to seven minuets a strip. I plane till Istart to scrape metal. Then finish off scrapingwith single edge razor blade. The longest time inthis procedure is the four days of soaking. I havebeen able to start in the morning and have a blankglued up my mid afternoon.Crappy blanks, heck no, very seldom do I see asign of a glue line and the blanks come out within.002. Heck, I'm not perfectGetting back to the oversize, I plane the wetstrip in the form till I see a definite taper, Ithink if I would go about six or seven more passeson each side I would probably start to hit metal.I really don't think there is much shrinkage asyou would expect.Did not intend to rave on this long, Just wasamaized at the difference in wet and dry planing.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Jerry Madigan wrote: Hi folks, I just rough-planed my first soaked butt strips a couple of daysagoand getting ready to work on the mids and trying to decide how tosize them. I was wondering what shrinkage to really expect. Idon'twant to just over- estimate. I know the the figure of 20% has been discussed. So far, withtwodays of drying, my butt strips are only down about 4%. What haveyousoakers experienced? Thanks Jerry __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo!Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Aug 27 15:20:23 2001 f7RKKNZ27946 f7RKKMN29754;Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:20:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Shrinkage of soaked strips Jerry,I don't think the final planing wet, is done by anyone. That would be realtricky. The final planing I do is after the strips are dry and heat treated. Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Jerry Madigan wrote: Tony, Actually, the 20% shrinkage quoted by some sounded very large to meand the anecdotal evidence that I have seen so far says it is toobig. I'll bet that when they said 20%, that was meant to includethree things: 1. The shrinkage caused by drying soaked, bloated strips (that lookslike 5% to me now) 2. The shrinkage you get anyway by heat-treating "dry" strips - thebinding thread definitely loosens up 3. The oversize you need to leave for final planing. Adding all of those up, the 20% sounds more reasonable - you just usea straight .030 for that. Thanks, Jerry --- Tony Spezio wrote:Jerry,I started soaking after much deliberating a whilewith my 4 Th. rod. I willnever go back to dry planing. I am approaching rod50 now.This what I do. If it works for you have at it.I Soak the sticks for about 4 days. Straighten,Flatten and bevel the 60* all at one time. I havea home made 60* hand beveler that can take .030 ona pass. I straighten and bevel two strips then twomore till I have all 18 done. This takes about1:45 . from the 60* beveler I go right to theplaning form and hand plane to about .030 oversize. I just eyeball the oversize. These stripsare still wet. I then bind them with the pith sideout and put them in the oven at about 190 to 200F.When I don't see any more water vapor coming out Iremove the bundles, open and re-bind with theenamel side out. Go right to heat treat, 375*F for12 minuets, six and six. These are blond rods.Come out with a nice honey color. from there, Iscrape the enamel, finish the taper and glue. Cando this all in a 4 hour session. I pace myself soI can heat treat, plane the taper and glue in onesession. That way, I don't need to worry aboutmoisture entering. I live 50' from the river. IfI don't do it all in one session I hang the wetbundles and dry them the next day and finish withgluing the blank.I know this may not answer your question on howmuch oversize to leave the strips but I have nothad any go undersize. The final dry planning takes from five to seven minuets a strip. I plane till Istart to scrape metal. Then finish off scrapingwith single edge razor blade. The longest time inthis procedure is the four days of soaking. I havebeen able to start in the morning and have a blankglued up my mid afternoon.Crappy blanks, heck no, very seldom do I see asign of a glue line and the blanks come out within.002. Heck, I'm not perfectGetting back to the oversize, I plane the wetstrip in the form till I see a definite taper, Ithink if I would go about six or seven more passeson each side I would probably start to hit metal.I really don't think there is much shrinkage asyou would expect.Did not intend to rave on this long, Just wasamaized at the difference in wet and dry planing.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Jerry Madigan wrote: Hi folks, I just rough-planed my first soaked butt strips a couple of daysagoand getting ready to work on the mids and trying to decide how tosize them. I was wondering what shrinkage to really expect. Idon'twant to just over- estimate. I know the the figure of 20% has been discussed. So far, withtwodays of drying, my butt strips are only down about 4%. What haveyousoakers experienced? Thanks Jerry __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo!Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 27 15:35:49 2001 f7RKZmZ29001 ;Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:35:45 +0000 Subject: Re: Bill Harms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Yes congratulations from me also and how about the article in Fly Fish =America titled "Raising Cane in Pennsylvania about Tom Whittle. Very =fine article about another very fine rodbuilder.Cheers Bill and Tom. Jack Yes congratulations from me also and = article in Fly Fish America titled "Raising Cane in Pennsylvania about = Whittle. Very fine article about another very fine =rodbuilder.Cheers Bill and Tom. Jack from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 27 15:38:16 2001 f7RKcFZ29290 ;Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:38:11 +0000 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip I don't know why but I can't seem to get my computer to do this neat trick. Jack from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Aug 27 15:49:40 2001 f7RKndZ00241 f7RKndN01751;Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:49:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip You are not alone. I went back to the *.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Jacques Follweiler wrote: I don't know why but I can't seem to get my computer to do this neat trick. Jack from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Aug 27 15:52:49 2001 f7RKqmZ00539 0400 Subject: Re:Lathe tooling This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I just purchased a central machinery lathe 7 x 10. from harbor and it appears to be able to do every thing I would need it =for.It has threading capability so you can single point threads for reel =seats.Looks like I'll be able to do inserts on it too, along with ferrules and =cork grips.I think the only tooling I'd need is a knurling tool and a drill chuck = drilling. Some other things you might need, would be reamers ,boring =bar andhigh speed turning bits. And of course drill bits.I got my lathe for $369.00 (no stock in harbor (disclaimer):)Of course a four jaw chuck and a magnetic indicator base comes in handy.You should already have a indicator and a fish tail.If you don't mind me asking how much is the grizzly?Tony Miller BODY {BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Bill I just purchased a central machinery lathe 7 x 10. from harbor and it appears to be able to do every thing I would = for.It has threading capability so you can single point threads for = seats.Looks like I'll be able to do inserts on it too, along with = cork grips.I think the only tooling I'd need is a knurling tool and a drill = center bar andhigh speed turning bits. And of course drill bits. (disclaimer):) = handy.You should already have a indicator and a fish tail.If you don't mind me asking how much is the grizzly?Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from lblan@provide.net Mon Aug 27 16:05:29 2001 f7RL5SZ01599 Subject: RE: Glueing Rubber Butt Caps http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Egad... the yellow death! It'll never come off! Larry Blan Or 3M super weatherstrip cement,the yellow stuff Brad -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 7:44 PM Subject: Re: Glueing Rubber Butt Caps PliobondA.J. From: "Bob McElvain" Subject: Glueing Rubber Butt CapsDate: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:51:11 -0600 I'm sorry but this is not about bamboo, I say this in advance withapologies to all. I built a spey rod and used quick-set epoxy to glue the grip in place. The epoxy did not bond to the rubber butt cap. Can anyone suggest a betteradhesive? Thanks in advance. I tried building a 12 foot spey rod but the heavy butt section was afailure. I had large glue line gaps at several nodes where the strips were so stiff that binding would not compress the slight curve left afterstraightening. Also the butt section had the heft and weight of a shovel handle. I am not done, I may try again, I still have the mid and tipsections. Thanks, Bob McElvain _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp http://www.provide.net from anglport@con2.com Mon Aug 27 16:14:13 2001 f7RLECZ02333 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip Shall I tell them or do you want to Martin?Art----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip You are not alone. I went back to the *.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Jacques Follweiler wrote: I don't know why but I can't seem to get my computer to do this neattrick. Jack from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Mon Aug 27 16:27:24 2001 f7RLRMZ03428 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip ALT+0176 Hold down the alt key and type 0176 on the keypad. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip Shall I tell them or do you want to Martin?Art----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Spezio" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 4:52 PMSubject: Re: Degree symbol tip You are not alone. I went back to the *.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Jacques Follweiler wrote: I don't know why but I can't seem to get my computer to do this neattrick. Jack from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Aug 27 16:37:04 2001 f7RLb3Z04001 (authenticated) Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:29:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip What's wrong with my simple "*"? Harry Art Port wrote: Shall I tell them or do you want to Martin?Art from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Mon Aug 27 17:02:14 2001 f7RM2CZ05521 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip That's like saying "what's wrong with graphite" :-) ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip What's wrong with my simple "*"? Harry Art Port wrote: Shall I tell them or do you want to Martin?Art from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Aug 27 17:14:28 2001 f7RMEQZ06166 0400 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip This is a multi-part message in MIME format. jewelers magnifier and then double hauls 70' of line on them just to = And you wonder what's wrong with 60* when you can have 60=B0. :)just kidding around :)Tony Miller BODY {BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Harry You do realize you are talking to a group who inspects rods with a = jewelers magnifier and then double hauls 70' of line on them just = sure all that detail can hold up to a pounding. And you wonder what's wrong with 60* when you can have 60=B0. =:)just kidding around :)Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from anglport@con2.com Mon Aug 27 17:55:30 2001 f7RMtTZ07644 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip Harry,Martin-Darrell graciously told me last night my problem stemmed from nothaving my keyboard set to "international"English. I reset it via hisinstructions and now I can also make umlauts, tildes, and accent acutes(Dang, he never showed me how to do an accent grave!).I don't know all the ramifications of this change (one is that"open-quote"signs don't show up unless you space-bar before the initialletter of the quote, at least if it's a vowel; see? €) so I'm loath tosuggest you do it. It involves Start-Settings- Control Panel-Keyboard, thenselecting Language and double-clicking on the English in the window. Thatallows you to alter it between English 101, English Dvorak, several othersand English International.Once you do that, Alt+Shift+: gives Ÿ (as Mr. Gates says: Ta Dah!!)Art ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip What's wrong with my simple "*"? Harry Art Port wrote: Shall I tell them or do you want to Martin?Art from beadman@mac.com Mon Aug 27 18:55:10 2001 f7RNt9Z09128 0700 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip f7RNtAZ09129 At 6:54 PM -0400 , 8/27/01, Art Port wrote about Re: Degree symbol tip Once you do that, Alt+Shift+: gives Ÿ (as Mr. Gates says: Ta Dah!!) Excellent description, Art. For those out there with Macintosh computers, it's basically the same thing. Inside of typing "shift-8" to get the asterisk (*), merely type "shift-option-8" and get the degree symbol (Ÿ). Claude from HomeyDKlown@att.net Mon Aug 27 19:07:19 2001 f7S07IZ09510 ;Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:07:10 +0000 Subject: RE: Degree symbol tip Don't worry, Jack. You're not alone. Computers rarely do what you want 'em to. They do what you tell 'em! In myexperience it's usually NOT the same thing! Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip I don't know why but I can't seem to get my computer to do this neat trick. Jack from Lazybee45@aol.com Mon Aug 27 19:07:19 2001 f7S07IZ09511 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net In a message dated 8/27/01 4:28:15 PM Central Daylight Time, pmgoodwin@earthlink.net writes: Where do you find out about this stuff?????mark from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 27 19:08:05 2001 f7S084Z09720 ;Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:08:01 +0000 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip Art:Works every time just like I told you.Ÿ Jack from anglport@con2.com Mon Aug 27 19:15:57 2001 f7S0FuZ10378 ,Cc: , Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Just find the right guy to ask! As is usual with these infernal =contraptions, as soon as M-D admitted he was using Outlook Express, I =had some other questions for him (which, of course, he knew the answers =to!) Ya jes gotta ax! 8^)Art ; Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip pmgoodwin@earthlink.net writes: ALT+0176 Where do you find out about this stuff?????mark Just find the right guy to = usual with these infernal contraptions, as soon as M-D admitted he was = Outlook Express, I had some other questions for him (which, of course, = the answers to!) Ya jes gotta ax! 8^)Art ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 8:05 =PMSubject: Re: Degree symbol =tip down the = from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Aug 27 19:42:58 2001 f7S0gvZ11187 27 Aug 2001 17:42:51 PDT Subject: john long does anyone one have john long's phone number handy? iwas planning on calling him tonite and have misplacedthe number. timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messengerhttp://phonecard.yahoo.com/ from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Mon Aug 27 19:43:18 2001 f7S0hHZ11214 Subject: test trying new email set up- please ignore from thogan@rochester.rr.com Mon Aug 27 19:54:50 2001 f7S0soZ11885 f7S0qHg25849 Subject: section alignment Does anyone know a way to mark (probably the ferrules) in such a way thatwhen putting the rod together, the guides all line up without visuallychecking them. I have a few graphite rods, in which there is large dot onthe male and female ferrules that mark the alignment spot.ThanksTaylor from edriddle@mindspring.com Mon Aug 27 19:59:35 2001 f7S0xYZ12158 Subject: Wayne's Video This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Please advise a source for Wayne C's Video.Thanks .Ed Please advise a source for Wayne Video.Thanks .Ed from caneman@clnk.com Mon Aug 27 20:16:05 2001 f7S1G5Z12772 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: section alignment Taylor,That was a practice of old by putting dimples in the ferrules called"Witness Marks". I have never done it, but it should be easy to do. Justbe sure you don't dimple the barrell of the female so that it interfereswith the female to male fit. Probably easier to jig up, use a good centerdrill and make a small dimple on the male below the fitted part and on thewelt on the female.I'm sure there are better ways to do it... chime in guys!!! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: section alignment Does anyone know a way to mark (probably the ferrules) in such a way thatwhen putting the rod together, the guides all line up without visuallychecking them. I have a few graphite rods, in which there is large dot onthe male and female ferrules that mark the alignment spot.ThanksTaylor from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Aug 27 20:47:34 2001 f7S1lYZ13783 (authenticated) Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:40:42 -0700 Subject: Re: Wayne's Video --------------DAD6737A7AF06651DB6FEAF2 Ed, Might try Darrell Lee. Or even Wayne himself. Harry Ed Riddle wrote: Please advise a source for Wayne C's Video.Thanks . --------------DAD6737A7AF06651DB6FEAF2 Ed, Ed Riddle wrote:Please advise asource for Wayne C's Video.Thanks. --------------DAD6737A7AF06651DB6FEAF2-- from irish-george@chartermi.net Mon Aug 27 21:43:10 2001 f7S2h9Z15308 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip You need to take off "Num Lock" in order for the ALT+four_digit_code towork. Most CMOS Set-ups default to booting with "Num Lock" on...you havetoset them to do differently or simply turn it off when you need it off. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip I don't know why but I can't seem to get my computer to do this neattrick. Jack from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Mon Aug 27 21:45:31 2001 f7S2jUZ15549 Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:43:59 -0400 claiming to be "oemcomputer" 2001 Subject: Re: section alignment I suppose if the male ferrule was in the lathe and you dragged a sharp toolin your tool post that was on center across the slide portion leaving a"scratch", deep enough that when final fitting your ferrule you won't sandit away. I don't think it would interfere with anything or effect fit.Something similar can be done on the female, but instead of on the barrel,maybe the face of the welt were it wouldn't so conspicuous and look like ascratch.Taylor, if you'd like to try, I'll whip you up a set of ferrules with theabove modification and you can be the guinea pig. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: section alignment Taylor,That was a practice of old by putting dimples in the ferrules called"Witness Marks". I have never done it, but it should be easy to do. Justbe sure you don't dimple the barrell of the female so that it interfereswith the female to male fit. Probably easier to jig up, use a good centerdrill and make a small dimple on the male below the fitted part and on thewelt on the female.I'm sure there are better ways to do it... chime in guys!!! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: "taylor hogan" Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 7:52 PMSubject: section alignment Does anyone know a way to mark (probably the ferrules) in such a waythatwhen putting the rod together, the guides all line up without visuallychecking them. I have a few graphite rods, in which there is large dotonthe male and female ferrules that mark the alignment spot.ThanksTaylor from irish-george@chartermi.net Mon Aug 27 21:48:04 2001 f7S2m3Z15811 ,, Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip Go to Programs->Accessories->System Tools->Character Map to find outthefour digit code for any ASCII character. from there, you can also copy andpaste the symbol...that is ANOTHER way to get in a degree symbol. George ----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip In a message dated 8/27/01 4:28:15 PM Central Daylight Time,pmgoodwin@earthlink.net writes: ALT+0176 Hold down the alt key and type 0176 on the keypad. Where do you find out about this stuff?????mark from channer@frontier.net Mon Aug 27 22:16:25 2001 f7S3GPZ16803 Subject: Re: section alignment Taylor;I jsut refished a fairly nice old unmarked rod that had some very prettybrass ferrules on it that had witness marks. The marks were just abovethe slide part of the male and just under the welt on the female andthey looked like they were made by just barely drilling the surface ofthe metal with a drill bit, the hole just went deep enough for the edgeto be defined.John taylor hogan wrote: Does anyone know a way to mark (probably the ferrules) in such a way thatwhen putting the rod together, the guides all line up without visuallychecking them. I have a few graphite rods, in which there is large dot onthe male and female ferrules that mark the alignment spot.ThanksTaylor from rodwrapp@swbell.net Mon Aug 27 22:22:30 2001 f7S3MTZ17143 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Degree Symbol This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Both codes work for me hold alt and 248 but it only works for me if I =use the numbers on the side.. It wont work if I use the numbers on top ==B0 =B0... Thanks Dave Both codes work for me hold alt and248 = works for me if I use the numbers on the side.. It wont work if I use = Dave from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Mon Aug 27 22:32:14 2001 f7S3WDZ17622 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip ----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip In a message dated 8/27/01 4:28:15 PM Central Daylight Time,pmgoodwin@earthlink.net writes: ALT+0176 Hold down the alt key and type 0176 on the keypad. Where do you find out about this stuff?????mark from the start menu I selected HELP. from the index tab I typed "special" inthe window. The second result was special characters. Clicked on that andgot a help window. step 1 was to click here to open special character map. Ispotted the degree symbol in the middle and clicked on it. In the lowerright hand corner of the character map it tells the key sequence to get thatcharacter. Paul from rextutor@about.com Mon Aug 27 22:58:31 2001 f7S3wUZ18577 (NPlex 5.5.029) Subject: Re: Wayne's Video Available through Angler's Art, Angler'sWorkshop and Cabela's see Book Sellers page athttp://www.artistree.com/SplitCaneLibrary/videos.htm Sign up fora free About Email account at http://About.com from saweiss@flash.net Mon Aug 27 23:44:50 2001 f7S4inZ19699 f7S4igx112442 Subject: Re: Degree symbol tip Organization: Prodigy Internet Me eitherSteve I don't know why but I can't seem to get my computer to do this neattrick. Jack from jojo@ipa.net Mon Aug 27 23:48:35 2001 f7S4mYZ19955 Subject: Re: Glueing Rubber Butt Caps Also known as Gorilla Snot. M-D Or 3M super weatherstrip cement,the yellow stuff Brad From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu PliobondA.J. From: "Bob McElvain" SNIPI built a spey rod and used quick-set epoxy to glue the grip in place.Theepoxy did not bond to the rubber butt cap. Can anyone suggest a betteradhesive? Thanks in advance. Thanks, Bob McElvain from jojo@ipa.net Mon Aug 27 23:48:37 2001 f7S4maZ19962 Subject: Re: Bill Harms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Congratulations, Bill. What mag? Where? When? M-D Probably already mentioned on the list, but congratulations to Bill = Bill.Regards,Chris Raine Congratulations, Bill. = Where? When? M-D Probably already mentioned onthe = Regards, Raine from caneman@clnk.com Tue Aug 28 02:51:31 2001 f7S7pUZ23772 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:17:07 -0500 Subject: Chinese Paynes Okie dokie guys... I don't know who this is that is promoting these thingsand I certainly hope I don't step on any toes with this post, but I don'trecognize the email address, so I hope I don't, but you have got to seethis!!! Go to http://www.thehomepool.com/cpain/cpain101.html and checkoutthe PAIN 101... supposedly in the style of Payne. Piece of junk... excusemy harshness, but it is!!! Do what the page says... check out the wraps...I mean, my eyes are getting bad in my old age, but if I ever wrap like that,then you guys need to tell me to retire! Look over the ferrules... Looklike they were blackened in a hot fireplace! And the cane??? Look at thepicture of the hook keeper... did these guys enjoy the use of sandpaper, orwhat???????????? These powerfibers have more lace than a French hookerspanties!OK... had to get that out of my system! Hope I didn't kick anyonesteeth in with this one, but I just had to post on this!!! ... but, youknow how us Okie rednecks are! We do call a cat a cat and a turd a turd...and these, my friends, are turds! Later,Sleepy Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from caneman@clnk.com Tue Aug 28 03:03:17 2001 f7S83HZ24074 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:28:54 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Your rods Sorry, couldn't help myself. Had to send this out to the email addy on thatwebsite. I guess I'm getting to be a curmudgeon more as I age! Later,Bob Greyfox.Sir, I don't know who you are, but you need to take a long, hard lookat other conventional >rodmakers rods, not only American, butcontemporarymakers from many other countries, >before making the assertion that yourrods are the "best quality" as stated in your website >immediately after thefourth image on the page. After attending 2 shows, 2 conclaves and 2rodmakers gatherings in the past year, I can assure you that the quality ofthe rods and the >hardware do not even compare to that mostcontemporaryrodmakers. As a matter of fact,your quality, especially of your wraps and hardware, doesn't even compareto that of most >beginning makers rods that I've seen. Regards,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from splitcane@t-online.de Tue Aug 28 04:22:52 2001 f7S9MpZ24927 fwd01.sul.t-online.com Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes They look worse than my first ever rod and that was japanese junk in thesixties. Even my first rod I did in 1985 with wooden forms looked better andwhothe hell is Grey Fox?Michael Bob Nunley schrieb: Okie dokie guys... I don't know who this is that is promoting these thingsand I certainly hope I don't step on any toes with this post, but I don'trecognize the email address, so I hope I don't, but you have got to seethis!!! Go to http://www.thehomepool.com/cpain/cpain101.html and checkoutthe PAIN 101... supposedly in the style of Payne. Piece of junk... excusemy harshness, but it is!!! Do what the page says... check out the wraps...I mean, my eyes are getting bad in my old age, but if I ever wrap like that,then you guys need to tell me to retire! Look over the ferrules... Looklike they were blackened in a hot fireplace! And the cane??? Look at thepicture of the hook keeper... did these guys enjoy the use of sandpaper, orwhat???????????? These powerfibers have more lace than a Frenchhookerspanties!OK... had to get that out of my system! Hope I didn't kick anyonesteeth in with this one, but I just had to post on this!!! ... but, youknow how us Okie rednecks are! We do call a cat a cat and a turd a turd...and these, my friends, are turds! Later,Sleepy Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from petermckean@netspace.net.au Tue Aug 28 05:41:27 2001 f7SAfPZ25759 f7SAfEf32637; Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes Bob After having looked at the "Pain" site, I have only one serious question. The price is quoted at 650. 650 what, exactly? Yak turds? Totally amazed, Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: Chinese Paynes Okie dokie guys... I don't know who this is that is promoting these thingsand I certainly hope I don't step on any toes with this post, but I don'trecognize the email address, so I hope I don't, but you have got to seethis!!! Go to http://www.thehomepool.com/cpain/cpain101.html and checkoutthe PAIN 101... supposedly in the style of Payne. Piece of junk... excusemy harshness, but it is!!! Do what the page says... check out thewraps...I mean, my eyes are getting bad in my old age, but if I ever wrap likethat,then you guys need to tell me to retire! Look over the ferrules... Looklike they were blackened in a hot fireplace! And the cane??? Look atthepicture of the hook keeper... did these guys enjoy the use of sandpaper,orwhat???????????? These powerfibers have more lace than a Frenchhookerspanties!OK... had to get that out of my system! Hope I didn't kick anyonesteeth in with this one, but I just had to post on this!!! ... but, youknow how us Okie rednecks are! We do call a cat a cat and a turd aturd...and these, my friends, are turds! Later,Sleepy Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from dickay@alltel.net Tue Aug 28 06:02:58 2001 f7SB2vZ26212 srv.alltel.net Tue, 28 Aug 2001 06:02:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes Peter, Greyfox hasn't figured out how to use the character table on hiscomputer yet to be able to insert the necessary symbols like a degreesymbolor dollar sign or yen sign. Who ever built that rod has not held or lookedat a modern cane rod.Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes Bob After having looked at the "Pain" site, I have only one seriousquestion. The price is quoted at 650. 650 what, exactly? Yak turds? Totally amazed, Peter----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 5:49 PMSubject: Chinese Paynes Okie dokie guys... I don't know who this is that is promoting thesethingsand I certainly hope I don't step on any toes with this post, but Idon'trecognize the email address, so I hope I don't, but you have got to seethis!!! Go to http://www.thehomepool.com/cpain/cpain101.html andcheckoutthe PAIN 101... supposedly in the style of Payne. Piece of junk...excusemy harshness, but it is!!! Do what the page says... check out thewraps...I mean, my eyes are getting bad in my old age, but if I ever wrap likethat,then you guys need to tell me to retire! Look over the ferrules... Looklike they were blackened in a hot fireplace! And the cane??? Look atthepicture of the hook keeper... did these guys enjoy the use of sandpaper,orwhat???????????? These powerfibers have more lace than a Frenchhookerspanties!OK... had to get that out of my system! Hope I didn't kick anyonesteeth in with this one, but I just had to post on this!!! ... but, youknow how us Okie rednecks are! We do call a cat a cat and a turd aturd...and these, my friends, are turds! Later,Sleepy Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from petermckean@netspace.net.au Tue Aug 28 06:04:17 2001 f7SB4GZ26376 f7SB4Cf38403; Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes The fox is grey, the rods are crappy;The style doesn't make me happy.There is a hint , a sniff, of GerkeAnd making things a tad more murkyA certain man above the borderMaking perfect rods to order,And all remember, dopes and scholars,Costing under 300 dollars!( Not heard of now for quite a while,And doesn't that just make you smile)Perception reels, and really funnilyI sit in sweet accord with Nunley !The things are really quite fantastic,But given our ethics of elastic,Who knows what twenty years may bring-"Grey Fox" may be the coming thingAnd "Payne" to "Pain" may change - a pity;If craftsmanship becomes this shitty! Peter ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes They look worse than my first ever rod and that was japanese junk in thesixties. Even my first rod I did in 1985 with wooden forms looked betterand whothe hell is Grey Fox?Michael Bob Nunley schrieb: Okie dokie guys... I don't know who this is that is promoting thesethingsand I certainly hope I don't step on any toes with this post, but Idon'trecognize the email address, so I hope I don't, but you have got to seethis!!! Go to http://www.thehomepool.com/cpain/cpain101.html andcheckoutthe PAIN 101... supposedly in the style of Payne. Piece of junk...excusemy harshness, but it is!!! Do what the page says... check out thewraps...I mean, my eyes are getting bad in my old age, but if I ever wrap likethat,then you guys need to tell me to retire! Look over the ferrules... Looklike they were blackened in a hot fireplace! And the cane??? Look atthepicture of the hook keeper... did these guys enjoy the use of sandpaper,orwhat???????????? These powerfibers have more lace than a Frenchhookerspanties!OK... had to get that out of my system! Hope I didn't kick anyonesteeth in with this one, but I just had to post on this!!! ... but, youknow how us Okie rednecks are! We do call a cat a cat and a turd aturd...and these, my friends, are turds! Later,Sleepy Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from harms1@pa.net Tue Aug 28 06:33:49 2001 f7SBXmZ26903 Subject: Re: Bill Harms Thanks for the kind words. The article is in the current issue of "SportingClassics." cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Bill Harms Congratulations, Bill. What mag? Where? When? M-D Probably already mentioned on the list, but congratulations to Bill forhis work being featured in a national magazine. Very fine work, Bill.Regards,Chris Raine from harms1@pa.net Tue Aug 28 06:43:55 2001 f7SBhtZ27205 Subject: Re: section alignment Taylor, Assemble the rod to your satisfaction, and then use your finest drill bit toput a tiny "dimple" in the bezel ring of the female. While aligned, do thesame for the shoulder of the males. Put a pin-size spot of red (or anycolor) in the dkimples. Allow to dry and then laquer or varnish theferrule. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: section alignment Does anyone know a way to mark (probably the ferrules) in such a way thatwhen putting the rod together, the guides all line up without visuallychecking them. I have a few graphite rods, in which there is large dot onthe male and female ferrules that mark the alignment spot.ThanksTaylor from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Tue Aug 28 08:33:14 2001 f7SDXDZ29865 Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:34:23 -0400 Subject: RE: Chinese Paynes HI Bob, Who are these guys! I have not seen something this bad since a guy walkedinto my shop and show me his quote "restoration work". Is this the greatAsian challenge to the production market. This web page should be used asanexample on what it should not be. Well just my two cents, take care, Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker -----Original Message----- Subject: Chinese Paynes Okie dokie guys... I don't know who this is that is promoting these thingsand I certainly hope I don't step on any toes with this post, but I don'trecognize the email address, so I hope I don't, but you have got to seethis!!! Go to http://www.thehomepool.com/cpain/cpain101.html and checkoutthe PAIN 101... supposedly in the style of Payne. Piece of junk... excusemy harshness, but it is!!! Do what the page says... check out the wraps...I mean, my eyes are getting bad in my old age, but if I ever wrap like that,then you guys need to tell me to retire! Look over the ferrules... Looklike they were blackened in a hot fireplace! And the cane??? Look at thepicture of the hook keeper... did these guys enjoy the use of sandpaper, orwhat???????????? These powerfibers have more lace than a French hookerspanties!OK... had to get that out of my system! Hope I didn't kick anyonesteeth in with this one, but I just had to post on this!!! ... but, youknow how us Okie rednecks are! We do call a cat a cat and a turd a turd...and these, my friends, are turds! Later,Sleepy Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Aug 28 08:43:14 2001 f7SDhDZ00604 GAA25970; Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes I think their own website sums it up in their own words "these C.Pains don'thave the look and feel of quality" They said it not me! Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Chinese Paynes Okie dokie guys... I don't know who this is that is promoting these thingsand I certainly hope I don't step on any toes with this post, but I don'trecognize the email address, so I hope I don't, but you have got to seethis!!! Go to http://www.thehomepool.com/cpain/cpain101.html and checkoutthe PAIN 101... supposedly in the style of Payne. Piece of junk... excusemy harshness, but it is!!! Do what the page says... check out thewraps...I mean, my eyes are getting bad in my old age, but if I ever wrap likethat,then you guys need to tell me to retire! Look over the ferrules... Looklike they were blackened in a hot fireplace! And the cane??? Look atthepicture of the hook keeper... did these guys enjoy the use of sandpaper,orwhat???????????? These powerfibers have more lace than a Frenchhookerspanties!OK... had to get that out of my system! Hope I didn't kick anyonesteeth in with this one, but I just had to post on this!!! ... but, youknow how us Okie rednecks are! We do call a cat a cat and a turd aturd...and these, my friends, are turds! Later,Sleepy Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Tue Aug 28 08:48:09 2001 f7SDm8Z00976 0400 Subject: Chinese paynes info: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Here is the web info for anybody who wants to join the great Asian rush.Annual Commercial Membership: $100. per year. Allows full listing ofproducts and services. There is a separate access section of the Network,available only to commercial members. The present criteria for commercialmembership is 40% of your income should come from the fly fishing industry.Registration as above. Full time guides, flytyers and rod-builders mayqualify for special Commercail Membership pricing- inqure. Fly Fishing NetworkArden Drive, Drawer CAmawalk, NY 10501(914) 245 6647 Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Aug 28 09:23:22 2001 f7SENLZ03122 (authenticated) Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:15:31 -0700 Subject: Re: Chinese paynes info: Y'all, Isn't there more than one way to skin a cat? I completely agree, thephotos Bob directed us towards arereally bad examples of craftsmanship. But I have also begun to hear somevery nice reports on rods andblanks coming out of China. One member of this list asked me to evaluate ablank he got from China, and I'mexpecting it in the mail any day now. from what that list-member says, thisis a good quality blank. Weshall see.Guess I'm trying to say let's be careful not to dismiss all Chinese rods androdmakers just on thepictured examples. I've seen another websitehttp://go2.163.com/bamboofishing offering Chinese rods for$195 and blanks for $115. Although I can't tell much from the fuzzypictures, I cannot compete with thoseprices, can you? If their quality is even close to decent, they will eventuallygain a big share of themarket. If the rods aren't decent yet, let's wait 2 years. I bet they improve. And that will ultimatelyforce us to improve also. Harry Tim Doughty wrote: --Harry Boyd "Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from rmoon@ida.net Tue Aug 28 09:24:03 2001 f7SEO2Z03251 0000 Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes I think their own website sums it up in their own words "theseC.Pains don'thave the look and feel of quality" They said it not me! Adam Adam, Let's be fair; you took that statement out of context, so it isyours not theirs. To me they are a "PAIN," and they said that not me>Ralph from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Tue Aug 28 09:49:49 2001 f7SEnnZ04860 0400 Subject: Witness Marks This is a multi-part message in MIME format. In shop we use a center drill in a drill press. Start by placing shortpieces of scrap blank stock into the ends of ferrules to support ferrule fortouch drilling. Putting the ferrule together and placing in a machine vicelower the drill press and lock it just above the ferrule set. Using thec/drill as an alignment tool center female serration first, than center maleserration and seat male ferrule far enough to support light drilling forwitness marks. Once centers are found use cross feed to make marks. Youwillfind that your alignment will be right on every time. Take care, Tim. P.S.make two wraps of masking tape on ferrule so that the vise doesn't leavemarks. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Aug 28 09:58:40 2001 f7SEwdZ05409 Subject: Re: Chinese paynes info: Like all things in the market place, competition keeps us all on our toes and trying to improve. I, for one do not worry about someone getting a share of the market place. The buying public has to find out about them and the guys who will buy their stuff will be the K Mart shopper and not the clientel we have the tendency to cater to. I was talking to a guy on a job site awhile back and he just raved about the stuff he got for flyfishing from Big K and how he did not see why anyone would buy one of my rods or anyone else who sold rods for what we need and deserve. Just like when I sell a gun that I build. I get inquiries every day about my guns and a lot of the lookers arer after the thompson Center guns and not what I have to offer. My guns areas close to authentic reproductions as I can get with my skill and the other store bought guns are not even close to be an authentic reproduction of any known antique gun.Bret Like all things in the market place, competition keeps us all on ourtoes and a share of and the guys who will buy their stuff will be the K Mart shopper and not the clientelwe awhile back and he just raved about the stuff he got for flyfishing from Big Kand how he did not see why anyone would buy one of my rods or anyone elsewho gun that I build. I get inquiries every day about my guns and a lot of the lookersarer guns are as close to authentic reproductions as I can get with my skill and the other store bought guns are not even close to be an authentic reproductionof any known antique gun.Bret from bamboorods@saber.net Tue Aug 28 10:09:14 2001 f7SF9DZ06035 Subject: Chinese Pains This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Obviously, G.G.'s business' holdings have gone world-wide. Obviously, G.G.'s business' holdings= world-wide. from bamboorods@saber.net Tue Aug 28 10:12:54 2001 f7SFCrZ06344 Subject: Choice of topics This is a multi-part message in MIME format. And isn't too bad that the Pacific Rim rodmaker will probably get more =postings than Bill Harms!Chris And isn't too bad that the Pacific= will probably get more postings than Bill Harms!Chris from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Aug 28 15:57:38 2001 f7SKvbZ22792 f7SKvco12418 Subject: glue thickness This is a multi-part message in MIME format. In taking measurements on rods we are always sure to allow for the =varnish. But what are we allowing for the glue? Using Epon and with my =binder the glue adds .002 in the measurement of the blank. across the =flats. What are others allowing for different types of glue? Obviously if you =glue up and your measurements are exactly on, the spline is actually = So what is everyone allowing for glue thickness? Adam Vigil In taking measurements on rods we are= to allow for the varnish. But what are we allowing for the glue? Using = with my binder the glue adds .002 in the measurement of the blank. = flats. What are others allowing for different= glue? Obviously if you glue up and your measurements are exactly on, the = is actually slightly less then it should be . So what is everyone allowing for thickness? AdamVigil from fiveside@net-gate.com Tue Aug 28 18:36:12 2001 f7SNaBZ28728 Subject: Re: glue thickness This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 4:58 PMSubject: glue thickness In taking measurements on rods we are always sure to allow for the =varnish. But what are we allowing for the glue? Using Epon and with my =binder the glue adds .002 in the measurement of the blank. across the =flats. What are others allowing for different types of glue? Obviously if you =glue up and your measurements are exactly on, the spline is actually = So what is everyone allowing for glue thickness? Adam Vigil Hi Adam and All,You are exactly right and you raise the 64K$ question. What do =makers do about dimentional glue buildup? It's likely that many just =ignore it. But it could be a topic of conversation in this quiet(?) = ----- Original Message ----- Vigil Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001= PMSubject: glue thickness In taking measurements on rods weare = to allow for the varnish. But what are we allowing for the glue? Using = and with my binder the glue adds .002 in the measurement of the blank. = the flats. What are others allowing for = glue? Obviously if you glue up and your measurements are exactly on, = spline is actually slightly less then it should be . So what is everyone allowing for glue = thickness? Adam Vigil Hi Adam and All, It's likely that many just ignore it. But it could be a topic of = from HomeyDKlown@att.net Tue Aug 28 18:40:44 2001 f7SNehZ29022 ;Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:40:40 +0000 Subject: RE: glue thickness This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Adam, I never did allow for glue. I think the trick is in the overall slope ofthe taper as opposed to absolute measurement. But what do I know? I'm arelative newbie too but my rods cast OK and the trout don't seem to knowthedifference. Dennis-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 4:58 PM Subject: glue thickness In taking measurements on rods we are always sure to allow for thevarnish. But what are we allowing for the glue? Using Epon and with mybinder the glue adds .002 in the measurement of the blank. across the flats. What are others allowing for different types of glue? Obviously if youglue up and your measurements are exactly on, the spline is actuallyslightly less then it should be . So what is everyone allowing for glue thickness? Adam Vigil Adam, relative newbie too but my rods cast OK and the trout don't seem to know = Dennis VigilSent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 4:58 thicknessIn taking measurements on rods weare = to allow for the varnish. But what are we allowing for the glue? Using = and with my binder the glue adds .002 in the measurement of the blank. = the flats. What are others allowing for = glue? Obviously if you glue up and your measurements are exactly on, = spline is actually slightly less then it should be . So what is everyone allowing for glue = thickness? Adam =Vigil from irish-george@chartermi.net Tue Aug 28 19:57:39 2001 f7T0vcZ00871 , Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes Or, even a decent quality rod of ANY era. George ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes Peter, Greyfox hasn't figured out how to use the character table on hiscomputer yet to be able to insert the necessary symbols like a degreesymbolor dollar sign or yen sign. Who ever built that rod has not held orlookedat a modern cane rod.Dick Fuhrman from DNHayashida@aol.com Tue Aug 28 20:03:55 2001 f7T13sZ01207 Subject: Silk line on eBay Since so many people emailed me about silk lines I got from ebay, check out item #1184241644 I'm fairly sure that is a silk line on the reel, but check out the bottom picture. The greyish spots on the line is most probably rot and the line would probably break easily.Darryl Sinceso many people emailed me about silk lines I got from ebay, check out but check out the bottom picture. The greyish spots on the line is most probablyrot and the line would probably break easily.Darryl from irish-george@chartermi.net Tue Aug 28 20:09:33 2001 f7T19WZ01686 Subject: Re: Chinese paynes info: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. As long as they don't actually get good and flood the market with =counterfeit Paynes, Halsteads, Gillums, Garrisons, Dickersons, etc., =etc. George Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:57 AMSubject: Re: Chinese paynes info: Like all things in the market place, competition keeps us all on our = trying to improve. I, for one do not worry about someone getting a = the market place. The buying public has to find out about them and = who will buy their stuff will be the K Mart shopper and not the = have the tendency to cater to. I was talking to a guy on a job site = back and he just raved about the stuff he got for flyfishing from Big = how he did not see why anyone would buy one of my rods or anyone else = sold rods for what we need and deserve. Just like when I sell a gun = build. I get inquiries every day about my guns and a lot of the = after the thompson Center guns and not what I have to offer. My guns = close to authentic reproductions as I can get with my skill and the = store bought guns are not even close to be an authentic reproduction = As long as they don't actually get good= the market with counterfeit Paynes, Halsteads, Gillums, Garrisons, = etc., etc. George ----- Original Message ----- Grhghlndr@aol.com Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001= AMSubject: Re: Chinese paynes =info:Like all = market place, competition keeps us all on our toes and trying to = will buy their stuff will be the K Mart shopper and not the clientel = awhile back and he just raved about the stuff he got for = Big K and how he did not see why anyone would buy one of my rods = sell a gun that I build. I get inquiries every day about my guns = of the lookers arer after the thompson Center guns and not what I = with my skill and the other store bought guns are not even close = from sallred@mindspring.com Tue Aug 28 20:18:40 2001 f7T1IdZ02237 Subject: technique for preparing nodes This is a multi-part message in MIME format. On the last rod I did, I used a different technique for prepping the =nodes. I split the strips first, and then dressed the nodes themselves =on the individual strips. To do that I used a stationary 1" belt =sander. I took off the ridge on the enamel side and dressed the area =pretty flat. I also took off some of the back side of the strip which =allowed the node to be pressed flat without compressing it too much. Does anyone else use this technique or does anyone see any problems it =would cause. It seems to work pretty good on the last rod with the =exception of 1 strip I messed up do to inattention. Scott Allred much.Does anyone else use this technique or does anyone see any problems = 1 strip I messed up do to inattention.Scott Allred from bmaulucci@adelphia.net Tue Aug 28 20:50:42 2001 f7T1ofZ03789 Subject: RE: technique for preparing nodes This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi Scott:That is a fairly good method. It is similar to what you can see GlennBrackett do in the Winston Waters video, except that he flattens them withadisc sander. I think that if you keep the enamel side on, take off thebakeside (like you describe), and then press and straighten while flatteningthe node with the notched vise jaws (to put the lip into), you will love theresults even more. Then there is so little to file off it is scary. I justdid two tips worth of strips in the shop this way, and they are great.Here's what I did:1. Plane the pith side flat.2. File the pith side under where the nodal bump is. I have a rounded filethat creates a small dish shape (gives somewhere for the node to displaceto).3. Heat the node as usual.4. Straighten side to side with Ray Gould's node press. (Just built thisweekend). It is great. I do it quickly and I think about the sides of thepress I am going to use while I am heating the strip.5. Immediately put the lip of the node into the notch in my bench vise andpress.6. Leave it in there while I heat up the next strip.Warning: If you heat the nodes again in any way before glue up, be preparedto press them straight again. I am going to heat treat the strips beforehand from now on. Last week I had four great strips that went right back tocrud when I heat treated before final planing. (Watch the Digger video, heheats the whole culm before even splitting).Works for me,Bob-----Original Message- ----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu AllredSent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 9:18 PM Subject: technique for preparing nodes On the last rod I did, I used a different technique for prepping thenodes. I split the strips first, and then dressed the nodes themselves onthe individual strips. To do that I used a stationary 1" belt sander. Itook off the ridge on the enamel side and dressed the area pretty flat. Ialso took off some of the back side of the strip which allowed the node tobe pressed flat without compressing it too much. Does anyone else use this technique or does anyone see any problems itwould cause. It seems to work pretty good on the last rod with theexception of 1 strip I messed up do to inattention. Scott Allred Scott:That = good method. It is similar to what you can see Glenn Brackett do in the = Waters video, except that he flattens them with a disc sander. I think = you keep the enamel side on, take off the bakeside (like you describe), = press and straighten while flattening the node with the notched vise = put the lip into), you will love the results even more. Then there is so = this way, and they are great. Here's what I did:1. = side flat.2. = side under where the nodal bump is. I have a rounded file that creates a = dish shape (gives somewhere for the node to displace =to).3. = usual.4. = to side with Ray Gould's node press. (Just built this weekend). It is = do it quickly and I think about the sides of the press I am going to use = am heating the strip.5. = press.6. = while I heat up the next strip. the nodes again in any way before glue up, be prepared to press them = again. I am going to heat treat the strips before hand from now on. Last = had four great strips that went right back to crud when I heat treated = final planing. (Watch the Digger video, he heats the whole culm before = splitting).Works = me,Bob AllredSent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 9:18 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: technique for nodes On the last rod I did, I used a different technique for prepping = much.Does anyone else use this technique or does anyone see any problems = exception of 1 strip I messed up do to inattention.Scott Allred from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Tue Aug 28 20:51:10 2001 f7T1p9Z03921 Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:50:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Silk line on eBay This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Two others that you might check out are #1182991030 and # 1183790528. I've been watching the reels since it was mentioned on the list and have =bought one reel. We'll see what I get. You know the pull cord on the =lawn mower is starting to wear. I may have bought a replacement for it. =LOL It is awfully tough to figure out what might be silk or what size it =might be. Quite frankly I might save money by buying a new line. Any =tips on how to identify lines from the pictures on Ebay? Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 9:03 PMSubject: Silk line on eBay Since so many people emailed me about silk lines I got from ebay, = item #1184241644 I'm fairly sure that is a silk line on the reel, but = out the bottom picture. The greyish spots on the line is most probably = Two others that you might check outare = and # 1183790528. I've been watching the reels since it = It is awfully tough to figure out what = Ebay? ----- Original Message ----- DNHayashida@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001= PMSubject: Silk line on =eBay many people emailed me about silk lines I got from ebay, check out = out the bottom picture. The greyish spots on the line is most = from rsgould@cmc.net Tue Aug 28 21:23:39 2001 f7T2NcZ05527 Subject: Re: glue thickness This is a multi-part message in MIME format. An interesting question. I allow for a glue layer thickness of 0.001" =and on a hex rod this means the "d" thickness across the flats will be =increased on the glued up rod by 0.004".Ray Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 1:58 PMSubject: glue thickness In taking measurements on rods we are always sure to allow for the =varnish. But what are we allowing for the glue? Using Epon and with my =binder the glue adds .002 in the measurement of the blank. across the =flats. What are others allowing for different types of glue? Obviously if you =glue up and your measurements are exactly on, the spline is actually = So what is everyone allowing for glue thickness? Adam Vigil An interesting question. I allow for a = thickness of 0.001" and on a hex rod this means the "d" thickness across = flats will be increased on the glued up rod by 0.004".Ray ----- Original Message ----- Vigil Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001= PMSubject: glue thickness In taking measurements on rods weare = glue? Using = and with my binder the glue adds .002 in the measurement of the blank. = the flats. What are others allowing for = glue? Obviously if you glue up and your measurements are exactly on, = spline is actually slightly less then it should be . So what is everyone allowing for glue = thickness? Adam =Vigil from channer@frontier.net Tue Aug 28 21:48:42 2001 f7T2mgZ06919 Subject: Re: glue thickness Adam;I don't allow anything for glue. When we use tapers obtained bymeasuring old rods, generally we are imitating rods made for silk linesand I think the extra thickness on my finished rod sections allows themto be more useful with modern lines. Obviously, the few tapers outthere that are taken directly from the original makers nnotes don'tcount, they had about the same increase in size then that we do now. Themain thing that I have noticed is that Urac with the walnut flourcatalyst will make your rod sections much fatter than Eppn will.John from timklein@qwest.net Tue Aug 28 21:59:01 2001 f7T2x0Z07600 (63.229.224.201) "Rod Makers List Serve" Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes Guys, I was pretty sure I'd seen a signature line on some list messages thatwere signed GreyFox. I searched the archives and found many posts from Frank Paul that had"GreyFox" after his name. I doubt he's connected with this in any way (aWHOIS search came up with a different name as the owner of the domainname),but I went ahead and sent him a message to give him a chance to respond.Unfortunately, the e-mail address he used previously on the list bounced. Does anyone have a good e-mail address for Frank Paul? If he's the GreyFoxof this website, he may be able to shed some light on these rods. If not,I'm sure he'd like a chance to clear his name. I apologize if someone has already pointed this out, or if Frank Paul hasalready replied. I get my messages once a day in digest format, so I won'tknow if there were replies until tomorrow.---Tim ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Chinese Paynes Okie dokie guys... I don't know who this is that is promoting these thingsand I certainly hope I don't step on any toes with this post, but I don'trecognize the email address, so I hope I don't, but you have got to seethis!!! Go to http://www.thehomepool.com/cpain/cpain101.html and checkoutthe PAIN 101... supposedly in the style of Payne. Piece of junk... excusemy harshness, but it is!!! Do what the page says... check out thewraps...I mean, my eyes are getting bad in my old age, but if I ever wrap likethat,then you guys need to tell me to retire! Look over the ferrules... Looklike they were blackened in a hot fireplace! And the cane??? Look atthepicture of the hook keeper... did these guys enjoy the use of sandpaper,orwhat???????????? These powerfibers have more lace than a Frenchhookerspanties!OK... had to get that out of my system! Hope I didn't kick anyonesteeth in with this one, but I just had to post on this!!! ... but, youknow how us Okie rednecks are! We do call a cat a cat and a turd aturd...and these, my friends, are turds! Later,Sleepy Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from flytyr@southshore.com Tue Aug 28 22:22:30 2001 f7T3MTZ08870 f7T3MSc22836;Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:22:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes I was going to stay out of this. Gray Fox is Alan Lui that owns and operates"FLY BUY" a flyfishing and tying materials operation out of New York.He also happens to be a good friend of mine. Have tied a many shows withhim.The rods may be junk but Alan is a pretty straight guy with good prices onwhathe sells.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tim Klein wrote: Guys, I was pretty sure I'd seen a signature line on some list messagesthatwere signed GreyFox. I searched the archives and found many posts from Frank Paul that had"GreyFox" after his name. I doubt he's connected with this in any way (aWHOIS search came up with a different name as the owner of the domainname),but I went ahead and sent him a message to give him a chance to respond.Unfortunately, the e-mail address he used previously on the list bounced. Does anyone have a good e-mail address for Frank Paul? If he's theGreyFoxof this website, he may be able to shed some light on these rods. If not,I'm sure he'd like a chance to clear his name. I apologize if someone has already pointed this out, or if Frank Paul hasalready replied. I get my messages once a day in digest format, so I won'tknow if there were replies until tomorrow.---Tim ----- Original Message -----From: Bob Nunley Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 1:49 AMSubject: Chinese Paynes Okie dokie guys... I don't know who this is that is promoting these thingsand I certainly hope I don't step on any toes with this post, but I don'trecognize the email address, so I hope I don't, but you have got to seethis!!! Go to http://www.thehomepool.com/cpain/cpain101.html andcheckoutthe PAIN 101... supposedly in the style of Payne. Piece of junk... excusemy harshness, but it is!!! Do what the page says... check out thewraps...I mean, my eyes are getting bad in my old age, but if I ever wrap likethat,then you guys need to tell me to retire! Look over the ferrules... Looklike they were blackened in a hot fireplace! And the cane??? Look atthepicture of the hook keeper... did these guys enjoy the use of sandpaper,orwhat???????????? These powerfibers have more lace than a Frenchhookerspanties!OK... had to get that out of my system! Hope I didn't kick anyonesteeth in with this one, but I just had to post on this!!! ... but, youknow how us Okie rednecks are! We do call a cat a cat and a turd aturd...and these, my friends, are turds! Later,Sleepy Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from bamboorods@saber.net Tue Aug 28 23:19:07 2001 f7T4J6Z11555 Subject: Bill Harms Article This is a multi-part message in MIME format. FYI: "Sporting Classics" Sept/Oct 2001 issue has an article titled, "A =Bamboo Birthday". Bill Harms has his 6 1/2 footer featured. Quote from =article: "The desire to own a fine bamboo rod is such a common thread =among flyfishermen that is really needs no elaboration." Tom Davis. =Nuff said.Chris Sept/Oct 2001 issue has an article titled, "A Bamboo = "The desire to own a fine bamboo rod is such a common thread said.Chris from mgjanik@yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 23:19:24 2001 f7T4JNZ11613 28 Aug 2001 21:19:17 PDT Subject: Stuff for sale...Thanks! 999058757=:8368" --0-1538565701-999058757=:8368 I want to say thanks for the interest, the stuff I had went fast. If you live inthe Kalamazoo, MI area and are willing to come here, I also have a homemadedrying cabinet, heat gun oven, and some A and B (mostly A) cane that I wouldbe interested in selling. Please contact me off list at miangler@yahoo.com ifyou are interested. Mike ---------------------------------Do You Yahoo!?Make international calls for as low as $0.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger.--0-1538565701-999058757=:8368 you live in the Kalamazoo, MI area and are willing to come here, I also have ahomemade drying cabinet, heat gun oven, and some A and B (mostly A) list at miangler@yahoo.com ifyou are interested.MikeDo You Yahoo!?Make international calls for aslow as $0.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger.--0- 1538565701-999058757=:8368-- from splitcane@t-online.de Wed Aug 29 05:08:59 2001 f7TA8vZ19682 fwd05.sul.t-online.com rodsupstream@exploremaine.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Chinese paynes info: I'ld say they wo'nt flood the market for long. Nobody is proud to own aforgery "something" but to own a custom made rod from one of the greatguys here in the list is an other (better) storyMichaelirish-george schrieb: Aslong as they don't actually get good and flood the market with counterfeitPaynes, Halsteads, Gillums, Garrisons, Dickersons, etc., ----- Original Message ----- From:Grhghlndr@aol.com ; rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 200110:57AM Subject: Re: Chinese paynesinfo: market place, competition keeps us all on our toes and I, for one do not worry about someone getting a share of The buying public has to find out about them and the guyswho will buy their stuffwill be the K Mart shopper and not the clientel wehave the tendency to cater back and he just ravedaboutthe stuff he got for flyfishing from Big K andhow he did not see whyanyonewould buy one of my rods or anyone else whosold rods for what we need build. I get inquiries everyday about my guns and a lot of the lookers arerafter the thompson Center close to authenticreproductionsas I can get with my skill and the otherstore bought guns are noteven close to be an authentic reproduction of anyknown antiquegun.Bret from ttalsma@macatawa.org Wed Aug 29 06:56:44 2001 f7TBuhZ21122 Subject: Tips Site Just to let you know, I've updated the tips site to make it easier toread. This will be an ongoing project, so feel free to send me tips asyou think about it. I think I'll start categorizing the tips to makeit easier to navigate. If you have any suggestions, let me know. The address is: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/index.html-- Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from bob@downandacross.com Wed Aug 29 08:31:52 2001 f7TDVpZ23909 Subject: RE: Tips Site Nice Job Todd, I like it. (Thanks for the plug also)Bob from oandc@email.msn.com Wed Aug 29 11:39:37 2001 f7TGdaZ11098 Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:39:31 -0700 Subject: Braided line FILETIME=[2DCB29A0:01C130A9] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Just curious,How did the braided nylon lines perform compared to others? ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.274 / Virus Database: 144 - Release Date: 8/23/01 Just curious,How did the braided nylon lines perform= others? ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = Virus Database: 144 - Release Date:8/23/01 from jeremy@goflyfishing.com Wed Aug 29 11:52:44 2001 f7TGqiZ11953 JAA26222 Subject: Sweet Dipping/Drying Cabinet but.. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I just got a new dipping/drying cabinet made for the shop and dipped a =rod section today and when it came out it had a couple of bare spot near =the butt that will be under the grip. The rest of the finish is perfect =on the first dunking. Should I remove all the finish and start over, or =wait til the first coat dries and lightly sand the areas where the =finish didn't stick. I suspect a little residue from cleaning tape off =the blank is the culprit. Jeremy Nevada City Anglers I just got a new dipping/drying cabinet = the shop and dipped a rod section today and when it came out it had a = start over, or wait til the first coat dries and lightly sand the areas = the blank is the culprit. Jeremy Nevada City =Anglers from RHOLDER@SMURFIT.COM Wed Aug 29 13:09:47 2001 f7TI9kZ15697 Subject: Rod Stress Grapghs Hello all, The last couple of days I have been contemplating the couple of rods I built. The tapers were recommended by many other builders that they were goodrods to begin with. So now that they are complete I have been thinking of mynext project and which rod I wanted to build. So the fist step I took was tolook and the many tapers that are listed on both the Rodmakers web site andthe Hexrod web site and the stress curve graphs. Well after looking at a lotof the different rods and their graphs, I started wondering what therelationship of the stress curve graph and the rods performance would be. Then I realized that I am looking at the graphs but not really totallyunderstanding what I am looking at. So I then sat down and read thedocument "Hexrod Explained" by W. Cattanach several times. The documentsure explained how the math was derived for the graphs. But still afterreading the document I find my self asking the same questions that I hadbefore. How can you somewha!t judge a rods fundamental performance by looking at the stress graph? I doknow that there are many factors that can alter a rod performance like typeof glue used, heat treating, varnish, the cane itself, etc. Also I dounderstand that the end result of the rod to a builders may feel just right tohim, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it feels right for another builder. But putting all the other variables aside and getting down to the basics, cananyone help explain to me what I am looking for in the graphs and how thataffect a rods performance? Thanks in advance to all whom may reply to thisemail. Robert HolderHome email: b2g@jps.net Work email: rholder@smurfit.com from DNHayashida@aol.com Wed Aug 29 13:50:19 2001 f7TIoJZ17600 (14379) Subject: Re: Silk line on eBay What size it is is a problem, but for $10 or $20 any silk line is a bargain.Darryl In a message dated 8/28/01 6:51:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, twilhelm@occasionalrod.com writes:Two others that you might check out are #1182991030 and #1183790528. I've been watching the reels since it was mentioned on the list and have bought one reel. We'll see what I get. You know the pull cord on the lawn mower is starting to wear. I may have bought a replacement for it. LOL It is awfully tough to figure out what might be silk or what size it might be. Quite frankly I might save money by buying a new line. Any tips on how to identify lines from the pictures on Ebay? Tim What size it is is a problem, but for $10 or $20 any silk line is a bargain.Darryl In a message dated 8/28/01 6:51:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, twilhelm@occasionalrod.com writes:Two others that you might check out are #1182991030 and #1183790528. I've been watching the reels since it was mentioned on the list and have cord on the lawn It is awfully tough to figure out what might be silk or what size it might how to identify lines from the pictures on Ebay? from splitcane@t-online.de Wed Aug 29 14:05:41 2001 f7TJ5eZ18560 fwd07.sul.t-online.com Subject: Re: Sweet Dipping/Drying Cabinet but.. silicon could be the reason and that means imho remove all and clean theblank/ better clean it twiceregardsMichaelJeremy Gray schrieb: Ijust got a new dipping/drying cabinet made for the shop and dipped a rodsection today and when it came out it had a couple of bare spot near the or wait til the first coat dries and lightly sand the areas where the finish City Anglers from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Aug 29 14:15:04 2001 f7TJF3Z19212 f7TJEsW11347; Subject: Re: Tips Site Todd, Great Job on the site Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Tips Site Just to let you know, I've updated the tips site to make it easier toread. This will be an ongoing project, so feel free to send me tips asyou think about it. I think I'll start categorizing the tips to makeit easier to navigate. If you have any suggestions, let me know. The address is: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/index.html-- Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Aug 29 14:20:25 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f7TJKOZ19627 (5.5.2653.19) Rodmakers discussion group Subject: RE: NASTI This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Just tell me where to send all my nodes. I don't have any other use for themsince I don't have a woodstove. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: NASTI Adam, This will be your only warning! This type of denigration of the node will nolonger be tolerated. Please take heed. Just because you're not paranoiddoesn't mean we're not watching you. Signed, The anonymous defenders of the Node from NASTI A little while ago the question was put " Why do guys make nodeless rods?" I think the name N.A.S.T.I for your organization answers that question quiteaccurately. But I think N.A.S.T.I really should stand for "Node Are Still TrulyIrritating" "To Node, or not to Node: that is the question: / Whether 't is nobler inthe mind to suffer / The Node and it outrageous irritation" Bet you did not know that Shakespeare was a cane rod maker. Adam Vigil Just tell me where to send all my nodes. I don't have any other use for them sinceI don't have a woodstove. Barry -----Original Message-----From: Jojo DeLancier NASTI Adam, This will be your onlywarning! This type of denigration of the node will no longer be tolerated. Please take heed. Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean we're not watching you. Signed, The anonymous defendersof the Node from NASTI From: Adam Vigil put I think the name N.A.S.T.I for your organization answers that question quite accurately. But I think N.A.S.T.I really should stand for "Node Are Still Truly Irritating" "To Node, or not to Node:that is the question: / Whether 't is nobler in the mind to suffer / The Node and it outrageous irritation" Bet you did not know that Shakespearewas a cane rod maker. Adam Vigil from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 29 15:01:50 2001 f7TK1nZ21885 QAA18672; Subject: Re: Rod Stress Grapghs Hi Robert,I'll tell you what they told me when I asked the same question. There justisn't a short cut. You have to go to gatherings, visit places where you cancast bamboo rods, study the curves of the rods you cast and work it outover time. It's finally coming together a bit for me but it is still rather fuzzyand is likely to stay that way since I get to cast a selection of rods just oncea year, at SRG. Best regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com RHOLDER@SMURFIT.COM wrote:Hello all, The last couple of days I have been contemplating the couple of rods I built. The tapers were recommended by many other builders that they were goodrods to begin with. So now that they are complete I have been thinking of mynext project and which rod I wanted to build. So the fist step I took was tolook and the many tapers that are listed on both the Rodmakers web site andthe Hexrod web site and the stress curve graphs. Well after looking at a lotof the different rods and their graphs, I started wondering what therelationship of the stress curve graph and the rods performance would be. Then I realized that I am looking at the graphs but not really totallyunderstanding what I am looking at. So I then sat down and read thedocument "Hexrod Explained" by W. Cattanach several times. The documentsure explained how the math was derived for the graphs. But still afterreading the document I find my self asking the same questions that I hadbefore. How can you somewha!!!!t judge a rods fundamental performance by looking at the stress graph? I doknow that there are many factors that can alter a rod performance like typeof glue used, heat treating, varnish, the cane itself, etc. Also I dounderstand that the end result of the rod to a builders may feel just right tohim, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it feels right for another builder. But putting all the other variables aside and getting down to the basics, cananyone help explain to me what I am looking for in the graphs and how thataffect a rods performance? Thanks in advance to all whom may reply to thisemail. Robert HolderHome email: b2g@jps.net Work email: rholder@smurfit.com from jojo@ipa.net Wed Aug 29 16:27:55 2001 f7TLRsZ26102 Subject: Re: NASTI This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Not only is Barry barbarous, but he's a heathenistic pagan whose =children were all born barefoot, as well. Worse still, Barry the =Barbarian is now in a fine kettle of doo. Those bumps in the night =you'll hear won't be the cat either, Barry. }8^0> Mr. Kling,How dare you forbid the nodes their intended purpose in life. Once an =intregral part of the culm, til you, with saw in hand..oh the horror... =I can't go on..... NASTI Just tell me where to send all my nodes. I don't have any other use = Barry Adam, This will be your only warning! This type of denigration of the =node will no longer be tolerated. Please take heed. Just because you're =not paranoid doesn't mean we're not watching you. Signed, The anonymous defenders of the Node from NASTI A little while ago the question was put " Why do guys make = I think the name N.A.S.T.I for your organization answers that =question quite accurately. But I think N.A.S.T.I really should stand for "Node Are Still =Truly Irritating" "To Node, or not to Node: that is the question: / Whether 't is =nobler in the mind to suffer / The Node and it outrageous irritation" Bet you did not know that Shakespeare was a cane rod maker. Adam Vigil Not only is = well. Worse still, Barry the Barbarian is now in a fine kettle of doo. = and Tom Ausfeld Mr. Kling,How dare you forbid the nodes their intended = the horror... I can't go on..... NASTI ----- Original Message ----- Kling, Barry W. = Just tell me where to send all my nodes. I don't have any = Barry Adam, This will be your = This type of denigration of the node will no longer be tolerated. = take heed. Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean we're not = watching you. Signed, The anonymous = Node from NASTI Vigil I think the name N.A.S.T.I for = organization answers that question quite =accurately. But I think N.A.S.T.I really = "To Node, or = that is the question: / Whether 't is nobler in the mind to = Node and it outrageous irritation" Bet you did not know that = cane rod maker. =Vigil from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Aug 29 16:37:02 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f7TLb2Z26929 (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs Dear Friends: I want to begin by thanking all of you who shared advice on solving mynodeless scarf problems, I'm trying various solutions. I know some experienced members of the list will disagree with me, but in my(admittedly few) years of rodmaking I have found a simple taper graph (withflat-to-flat measurement on the vertical axis and distance from the tip in 5inch intervals on the horizontal) to be much more useful than the stressgraphs produced by hexrod or Garrison's math. When looking at a simple taper graph, it is easy for me to imagine thestress of a cast moving from the tip down the shaft. In sections of theshaft that increase in size at a steady rate (which is to say, becomesstronger at a steady rate as you move down from the tip), increasing stresson the rod will produce a smooth curve in the shaft. Where a section of theshaft increases at a slower rate (that is, where there is a flatter sectionof the line on the graph) the rod will bend more at that point than it wouldhave in a rod where the line had continued to increase at a steady rate.This will be what some have called a "hinge" in the rod, though that'salways seemed a rather drastic description to me. If, instead, the shaft thickness increases at a more rapid rate, making asteeper section of the line, this shows an area of the shaft that isbecoming stiffer at a more rapid rate and will have more resistance tobending than the adjacent areas. (Ferrules can be modeled by showing a"bump" in the curve, which is to say a stiffer area, at the ferrulelocation.) Some rods, like most of Garrison's, have a straight-line taper after thefirst few inches. Some rods have a flat spot at two different places in thetaper -- one about a third of the way down, and one about two thirds or moredown from the tip. These rods tend to respond mainly with the top third ofthe rod in short gentle casts, but when more line and stronger castingmotions are used the bottom portion gets into the act and provides the kindof power seen in so-called parabolic. Granger and Phillipson rods usuallyhave tapers of this sort. A rod with a long low hump from tip to butt, except for a flatter spot justabove the grip, is generally called "parabolic." With this sort of rod youcan't readily make gentle short casts that engage only the tip section(because the tip doesn't tend to bend independently from the rest of theshaft), but the rod excels on long casts that flex deep into the buttsection, bringing the power of the whole shaft fully into play. In other words, the relationship between the look of a taper graph and therod's performance is relatively straightforward. Not that you can telleverything about a rod from the graph. You can't take an 8.5' Phillipsontaper and simply shrink it to 7 feet. I'm just saying that the kind ofknowledge available from a stress chart is available from the graph in amuch simpler and more straightforward way. Some argue that, unlike simple taper charts, stress charts help youdetermine whether your taper will over-stress a particular section of thebamboo. But the literal stresses shown in the charts are arbitrary (asMilward has shown) and don't reflect real world stresses. They are not evenclose. If Milward is right, stress charts are what I call scientistic. Theyare really just a judgment call, dressed up in a coat of numbers andformulas that make them seem scienterrific. If you've used stress curveslong enough that you can relate the look of the curve to performance, Isuppose they're as good as anything else. But I've never heard anyconvincing argument for their superiority to simple taper curves -- except the stresses shown are so wildly incorrect, the ability of Hexrod tomeaningfully "convert" a taper from one size to another based on stresses isquestionable, too. That is why I asked a few weeks ago, and ask again now, whether anyone canconvincingly challenge Milward's findings that the stresses in theHexrod(Garrison) charts have no relation to reality. Unless Milward iswrong, Hexrod/Garrison stress charts are a very indirect, unnecessarilycomplicated, and in an important sense a misleading way to describe a flyrod taper. And don't forget -- the fact that engineers have trouble modeling somethingin math doesn't mean that thing is somehow beyond practical understanding.Sometimes a simple graphic approach is more useful than one based oncalculus, even for engineers. IMHO, of course. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Rod Stress Grapghs Hi Robert,I'll tell you what they told me when I asked the same question. There justisn't a short cut. You have to go to gatherings, visit places where you cancast bamboo rods, study the curves of the rods you cast and work it outovertime. It's finally coming together a bit for me but it is still ratherfuzzy and is likely to stay that way since I get to cast a selection of rodsjust once a year, at SRG. Best regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com RHOLDER@SMURFIT.COM wrote:Hello all, The last couple of days I have been contemplating the couple of rods Ibuilt. The tapers were recommended by many other builders that they weregood rods to begin with. So now that they are complete I have been thinkingof my next project and which rod I wanted to build. So the fist step I tookwas to look and the many tapers that are listed on both the Rodmakers website and the Hexrod web site and the stress curve graphs. Well afterlooking at a lot of the different rods and their graphs, I started wonderingwhat the relationship of the stress curve graph and the rods performancewould be. Then I realized that I am looking at the graphs but not reallytotally understanding what I am looking at. So I then sat down and read thedocument "Hexrod Explained" by W. Cattanach several times. The documentsure explained how the math was derived for the graphs. But still afterreading the document I find my self asking the same questions that I hadbefore. How can you somewha!!!!t judge a rods fundamental performance by looking at the stress graph? I doknow that there are many factors that can alter a rod performance like typeof glue used, heat treating, varnish, the cane itself, etc. Also I dounderstand that the end result of the rod to a builders may feel just rightto him, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it feels right for anotherbuilder. But putting all the other variables aside and getting down to thebasics, can anyone help explain to me what I am looking for in the graphsand how that affect a rods performance? Thanks in advance to all whommayreply to this email. Robert HolderHome email: b2g@jps.net Work email: rholder@smurfit.com from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Aug 29 16:39:02 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f7TLd2Z27167 (5.5.2653.19) Rodmakers discussion group Subject: RE: NASTI This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Actually I make my children gnaw the nodes out of the culms in order to earnthe slimy gruel on which they subsist. B. the B. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: NASTI Not only is Barry barbarous, but he's a heathenistic pagan whose childrenwere all born barefoot, as well. Worse still, Barry the Barbarian is now ina fine kettle of doo. Those bumps in the night you'll hear won't be the cateither, Barry. }8^0> Mr. Kling,How dare you forbid the nodes their intended purpose in life. Once anintregral part of the culm, til you, with saw in hand..oh the horror... Ican't go on.....you sir are a barbarian. NASTI ----- Original Message ----- Just tell me where to send all my nodes. I don't have any other use for themsince I don't have a woodstove. Barry Adam, This will be your only warning! This type of denigration of the node will nolonger be tolerated. Please take heed. Just because you're not paranoiddoesn't mean we're not watching you. Signed, The anonymous defenders of the Node from NASTI A little while ago the question was put " Why do guys make nodeless rods?" I think the name N.A.S.T.I for your organization answers that question quiteaccurately. But I think N.A.S.T.I really should stand for "Node Are Still TrulyIrritating" "To Node, or not to Node: that is the question: / Whether 't is nobler inthe mind to suffer / The Node and it outrageous irritation" Bet you did not know that Shakespeare was a cane rod maker. Adam Vigil Actually I make my children gnaw the nodes out of the culms in order B. the B. -----Original Message-----From: Jojo DeLancier NASTINot only is From: Jill and Tom Ausfeld Mr. Kling,How dare you forbid the nodes their intended purposein hand..oh the horror... I can't go on..... NASTI ----- Original Message ----- From: Kling, Barry W. Just tell me where to send all my nodes. I don't have any otheruse Barry Adam, This will be your only warning! This type of denigration of the node will no longer be tolerated. Please take heed. Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean we're not watching you. Signed, The anonymousdefenders of the Node from NASTI From: Adam Vigil was I think the name N.A.S.T.I for your organization answers that question quite accurately. But I think N.A.S.T.I really shouldstand "To Node, or not toNode: that is the question: / Whether 't is nobler in the mind to suffer / The Node and it outrageous irritation" Bet you did not know thatShakespeare was a cane rod maker. Adam Vigil from bmaulucci@adelphia.net Wed Aug 29 17:52:06 2001 f7TMq5Z15468 Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs Hi Barry and listers:I agree with your take on this. I wanted to add that I find the taperdiscussions in Ray Gould's book and Per Brandin's from The Bamboo Fly RodMagazine to be the most helpful in terms of change in taper, etc.... A lastsource, the Herter's Guide to Split Cane Rodbuilding (maybe not the exacttitle, but it's here somewhere) has a short little section that makes sensetoo.The thing I have never understood (forgive my ignorance) is...if thedimensions dictate the stresses the rod will undergo, why not just use thedimensions all along instead of confusing yourself with stress basednumbers. I mean, I can understand that .005 will dictate a line weightchange in a rod, but I am not good at slinging 6 digit rod stress numbersaround. Garrison's math is arbitrary and is used to give a standard or basis DISCLAIMER: I write this all despite thinking that Wayne Cattanach's talk onstress graphs at Grayrock was fantastic. He makes sense to me, and Irealized in hearing him discuss the graphs that they do serve a purpose. Ijust cannot get used to the numbers that they generate. I like thinking interms of .001"Okay, rant mode off,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs Dear Friends: I want to begin by thanking all of you who shared advice on solving mynodeless scarf problems, I'm trying various solutions. I know some experienced members of the list will disagree with me, but in my(admittedly few) years of rodmaking I have found a simple taper graph (withflat-to-flat measurement on the vertical axis and distance from the tip in 5inch intervals on the horizontal) to be much more useful than the stressgraphs produced by hexrod or Garrison's math. When looking at a simple taper graph, it is easy for me to imagine thestress of a cast moving from the tip down the shaft. In sections of theshaft that increase in size at a steady rate (which is to say, becomesstronger at a steady rate as you move down from the tip), increasing stresson the rod will produce a smooth curve in the shaft. Where a section of theshaft increases at a slower rate (that is, where there is a flatter sectionof the line on the graph) the rod will bend more at that point than it wouldhave in a rod where the line had continued to increase at a steady rate.This will be what some have called a "hinge" in the rod, though that'salways seemed a rather drastic description to me. If, instead, the shaft thickness increases at a more rapid rate, making asteeper section of the line, this shows an area of the shaft that isbecoming stiffer at a more rapid rate and will have more resistance tobending than the adjacent areas. (Ferrules can be modeled by showing a"bump" in the curve, which is to say a stiffer area, at the ferrulelocation.) Some rods, like most of Garrison's, have a straight-line taper after thefirst few inches. Some rods have a flat spot at two different places in thetaper -- one about a third of the way down, and one about two thirds or moredown from the tip. These rods tend to respond mainly with the top third ofthe rod in short gentle casts, but when more line and stronger castingmotions are used the bottom portion gets into the act and provides the kindof power seen in so-called parabolic. Granger and Phillipson rods usuallyhave tapers of this sort. A rod with a long low hump from tip to butt, except for a flatter spot justabove the grip, is generally called "parabolic." With this sort of rod youcan't readily make gentle short casts that engage only the tip section(because the tip doesn't tend to bend independently from the rest of theshaft), but the rod excels on long casts that flex deep into the buttsection, bringing the power of the whole shaft fully into play. In other words, the relationship between the look of a taper graph and therod's performance is relatively straightforward. Not that you can telleverything about a rod from the graph. You can't take an 8.5' Phillipsontaper and simply shrink it to 7 feet. I'm just saying that the kind ofknowledge available from a stress chart is available from the graph in amuch simpler and more straightforward way. Some argue that, unlike simple taper charts, stress charts help youdetermine whether your taper will over-stress a particular section of thebamboo. But the literal stresses shown in the charts are arbitrary (asMilward has shown) and don't reflect real world stresses. They are not evenclose. If Milward is right, stress charts are what I call scientistic. Theyare really just a judgment call, dressed up in a coat of numbers andformulas that make them seem scienterrific. If you've used stress curveslong enough that you can relate the look of the curve to performance, Isuppose they're as good as anything else. But I've never heard anyconvincing argument for their superiority to simple taper curves -- except the stresses shown are so wildly incorrect, the ability of Hexrod tomeaningfully "convert" a taper from one size to another based on stresses isquestionable, too. That is why I asked a few weeks ago, and ask again now, whether anyone canconvincingly challenge Milward's findings that the stresses in theHexrod(Garrison) charts have no relation to reality. Unless Milward iswrong, Hexrod/Garrison stress charts are a very indirect, unnecessarilycomplicated, and in an important sense a misleading way to describe a flyrod taper. And don't forget -- the fact that engineers have trouble modeling somethingin math doesn't mean that thing is somehow beyond practical understanding.Sometimes a simple graphic approach is more useful than one based oncalculus, even for engineers. IMHO, of course. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Rod Stress Grapghs Hi Robert,I'll tell you what they told me when I asked the same question. There justisn't a short cut. You have to go to gatherings, visit places where you cancast bamboo rods, study the curves of the rods you cast and work it outovertime. It's finally coming together a bit for me but it is still ratherfuzzy and is likely to stay that way since I get to cast a selection of rodsjust once a year, at SRG. Best regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com RHOLDER@SMURFIT.COM wrote:Hello all, The last couple of days I have been contemplating the couple of rods Ibuilt. The tapers were recommended by many other builders that they weregood rods to begin with. So now that they are complete I have been thinkingof my next project and which rod I wanted to build. So the fist step I tookwas to look and the many tapers that are listed on both the Rodmakers website and the Hexrod web site and the stress curve graphs. Well afterlooking at a lot of the different rods and their graphs, I started wonderingwhat the relationship of the stress curve graph and the rods performancewould be. Then I realized that I am looking at the graphs but not reallytotally understanding what I am looking at. So I then sat down and read thedocument "Hexrod Explained" by W. Cattanach several times. The documentsure explained how the math was derived for the graphs. But still afterreading the document I find my self asking the same questions that I hadbefore. How can you somewha!!!!t judge a rods fundamental performance by looking at the stress graph? I doknow that there are many factors that can alter a rod performance like typeof glue used, heat treating, varnish, the cane itself, etc. Also I dounderstand that the end result of the rod to a builders may feel just rightto him, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it feels right for anotherbuilder. But putting all the other variables aside and getting down to thebasics, can anyone help explain to me what I am looking for in the graphsand how that affect a rods performance? Thanks in advance to all whommayreply to this email. Robert HolderHome email: b2g@jps.netWork email: rholder@smurfit.com from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Wed Aug 29 18:14:22 2001 f7TNELZ16353 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs Barry -- I cannot vouch for the validity of the equations that Garrison came up withto describe stresses in a rod blank when loaded. The problem I see is thatthe dynamics of casting create ever-changing loads with time and personalcasting style. The complicated equations that may be applicable to mycasting stroke would not be the same equations appropriate for any othercaster on earth. Then add in things like line tapers, length of line out,wind resistance of the rod, shooting line or not, hauling or not, etc., andyou have truly an unsolvable problem. Too many unknowns, and they'rechanging every millisecond. Phillips book really only addresses staticloading by an assumed mass, which may be adequate, if not theoreticallycorrect. But if you COULD write good stress distribution equations, they would be themost useful thing you could use to design rods for a particular purpose.And it would still take human interpretation and understanding to know howto apply the results to real world. Although considerably easier to model,it can be seen that hollow tubular rod construction (as in carbon fiber) canbe remarkably consistent from rod to rod. These rods are NOT designed bytrial and error any more. They are a direct result of sophisticatedcomputer modelling of stress profiles. Generally, most rods of a particularrod series are identifiable in terms of "feel". So if you like oneparticular weight/length, chances are good that you may like others in theseries. You could think of a maker's taper preferencing as his "series". Alas, the perfect fly rod to delight all mankind may never be realized.Also, MHO -- TAM Barry K wrote:Some argue that, unlike simple taper charts, stress charts help youdetermine whether your taper will over-stress a particular section of thebamboo. But the literal stresses shown in the charts are arbitrary (asMilward has shown) and don't reflect real world stresses. They are not evenclose. If Milward is right, stress charts are what I call scientistic. Theyare really just a judgment call, dressed up in a coat of numbers andformulas that make them seem scienterrific. If you've used stress curveslong enough that you can relate the look of the curve to performance, Isuppose they're as good as anything else. But I've never heard anyconvincing argument for their superiority to simple taper curves -- except the stresses shown are so wildly incorrect, the ability of Hexrod tomeaningfully "convert" a taper from one size to another based on stresses isquestionable, too. That is why I asked a few weeks ago, and ask again now, whether anyone canconvincingly challenge Milward's findings that the stresses in theHexrod(Garrison) charts have no relation to reality. Unless Milward iswrong, Hexrod/Garrison stress charts are a very indirect, unnecessarilycomplicated, and in an important sense a misleading way to describe a flyrod taper. And don't forget -- the fact that engineers have trouble modeling somethingin math doesn't mean that thing is somehow beyond practical understanding.Sometimes a simple graphic approach is more useful than one based oncalculus, even for engineers. IMHO, of course. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Rod Stress Grapghs Hi Robert,I'll tell you what they told me when I asked the same question. There justisn't a short cut. You have to go to gatherings, visit places where you cancast bamboo rods, study the curves of the rods you cast and work it outovertime. It's finally coming together a bit for me but it is still ratherfuzzy and is likely to stay that way since I get to cast a selection of rodsjust once a year, at SRG. Best regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com RHOLDER@SMURFIT.COM wrote:Hello all, The last couple of days I have been contemplating the couple of rods Ibuilt. The tapers were recommended by many other builders that they weregood rods to begin with. So now that they are complete I have been thinkingof my next project and which rod I wanted to build. So the fist step I tookwas to look and the many tapers that are listed on both the Rodmakers website and the Hexrod web site and the stress curve graphs. Well afterlooking at a lot of the different rods and their graphs, I started wonderingwhat the relationship of the stress curve graph and the rods performancewould be. Then I realized that I am looking at the graphs but not reallytotally understanding what I am looking at. So I then sat down and read thedocument "Hexrod Explained" by W. Cattanach several times. The documentsure explained how the math was derived for the graphs. But still afterreading the document I find my self asking the same questions that I hadbefore. How can you somewha!!!!t judge a rods fundamental performance by looking at the stress graph? I doknow that there are many factors that can alter a rod performance like typeof glue used, heat treating, varnish, the cane itself, etc. Also I dounderstand that the end result of the rod to a builders may feel just rightto him, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it feels right for anotherbuilder. But putting all the other variables aside and getting down to thebasics, can anyone help explain to me what I am looking for in the graphsand how that affect a rods performance? Thanks in advance to all whommayreply to this email. Robert HolderHome email: b2g@jps.net Work email: rholder@smurfit.com from thogan@rochester.rr.com Wed Aug 29 18:14:55 2001 f7TNEtZ16455 f7TNDmJ00976 Subject: Stress Graphs and N rays This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Barry et. al. I applaud you for coming out of the closet so to speak and say that theemperor has no clothes. It has always been my opinion that stress graphsalone can do little to predict the action of a rod. I make my case not =onwhat I will call sloppy math, which it is, but for the lack of =informationwhich is incorporated into the graph. At best it can determine the =stress atgiven points along the rod. But this alone will not predict how the rodacts. Each piece of bamboo off the culm is different, the way we plane, =theway temper must make some rather drastic changes in the stiffness of =eachsection.I would prefer a model whereby we could determine prior to making the =rod,how will the rod vibrate. If I hold one end of the rod still, and flex =thetip end down a constant distance, then let go, how long will it take for =therod to dampen to where the tip is virtually motionless. I suspect thisnumber predicts much more about the "action" of the rod than the stressgraph. At one time I thought it might be valuable for everyone to =measuretheir tapers and make the above test. from all the rods made, surely wecould do some curve fitting to the enourmous amount data, to predict howfuture rods will act. If equal tapered rods have different frequencies, =thenthere must be more to the equation than the taper.I know some great rods have been made using the stress graph approach, =butthis alone does not validate the model. Guys this is voodoo, it is thearcanum of our hobby, It is what differentiates us from the graphite =boys.Speaking of graphite boys, the Orvis guys for a long time have =characterizedtheir rods by the degree which they flex. It has something to do with =wherethe flex in the rod starts and by how much. They will not divulge theirformula for grading their rods, but wouldn't it be nice if prior to =buildinga rod you could predict if I pulled down on the tip with a certain =force,what would the curve in the rod be. That would mean more to me than a =stressgraph.Ok enough, off my engineering soap box. Taylor Barry et. al.I applaud you for coming = closet so to speak and say that theemperor has no clothes. It has = been my opinion that stress graphsalone can do little to predict the = of a rod. I make my case not onwhat I will call sloppy math, which = but for the lack of informationwhich is incorporated into the graph. = it can determine the stress atgiven points along the rod. But this = will not predict how the rodacts. Each piece of bamboo off the culm = different, the way we plane, theway temper must make some rather = changes in the stiffness of eachsection.I would prefer a model = we could determine prior to making the rod,how will the rod vibrate. = hold one end of the rod still, and flex thetip end down a constant = then let go, how long will it take for therod to dampen to where the = virtually motionless. I suspect thisnumber predicts much more about = "action" of the rod than the stressgraph. At one time I thought it = valuable for everyone to measuretheir tapers and make the above = all the rods made, surely wecould do some curve fitting to the = amount data, to predict howfuture rods will act. If equal tapered = different frequencies, thenthere must be more to the equation than = taper.I know some great rods have been made using the stress graph = butthis alone does not validate the model. Guys this is voodoo, it = thearcanum of our hobby, It is what differentiates us from the = characterizedtheir rods by the degree which they flex. It has = do with wherethe flex in the rod starts and by how much. They will = divulge theirformula for grading their rods, but wouldn't it be nice = prior to buildinga rod you could predict if I pulled down on the tip = certain force,what would the curve in the rod be. That would mean = box.Taylor from blitzenrods@yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 19:04:54 2001 f7U04rZ18149 Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:04:49 PDT Subject: Stress Graphs I look at stress graphs as a general guideline to thetype of action, not to predict the exact personalityof a rod. If the graph has a steep decline throughoutit's length then I would predict it is tip actionedand faster. If it has a shallow decline then I wouldpredict it leans more toward medium action and fullerflexing. If it has a U shaped stress graph then Iwould predict it may have a parabolic action with moreflex into the handle then others. This just gives ageneral idea to start with. If you make the rod andcast it, then you can decide how all the othervariables play into it. That's how I look at thewhole stress graph thing, and no matter how crappy therod turns out I can always fall back on the statement,"Somewhere in the world is a caster who would thinkthis is the ultimate rod, I just have to find them". Chris __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!Messengerhttp://im.yahoo.com from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed Aug 29 20:17:58 2001 f7U1HuZ19926 UAA14574 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 Subject: Re: Rod Stress Grapghs I feel a little like Terry Ackland saying this, but... Anyone who wants to understand what stress curves say, should start and maybe an introductory engineering book as a reference. Thinkcarefully about the stress components as you calculate them. curve and which are ignored. Then you can decide for yourself whether stress curves are useful or not, in building flyrods. Computers make it too easy to go click-click-click and get some numbersand believe they are the whole truth. They are not. But neither arethey meaningless. ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from oakmere@carol.net Wed Aug 29 20:46:49 2001 f7U1kmZ21464 [216.215.134.55] (may be forged)) f7U1khv29569 Subject: RE: GreyFox Hey Guys: I use the moniker GreyFox but I am NOT the guy who made that s****! rod. Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work); 864-656-7471oakmere@carol.net (home); 864-882-0077 from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 20:52:32 2001 f7U1qVZ21923 Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:52:27 -0700 Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:52:27 GMT Subject: Re: Sweet Dipping/Drying Cabinet but.. FILETIME=[6BFAC850:01C130F6] Hello Jeremy: under the sun to get rid of the problem and eventually figured it out. If you'll with varnish, changed the cleaner to artist grade mineral spirits, changedextraction rates, garded against silicone, made sure I didn't use steel wool soas to contaminate the rod and several other technique's, to no avail. When Ifinally thinned the varnish, the problem was gone. Hope this helps youout. and dipped a rod section today and when it came out it had a couple of barespot near the butt that will be under the grip. The rest of the finish isperfect on the first dunking. Should I remove all the finish and start over, orwait til the first coat dries and lightly sand the areas where the finish didn'tstick. I suspect a little residue from cleaning tape off the blank is the culprit. Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Wed Aug 29 20:54:27 2001 f7U1sQZ22130 Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:54:22 -0700 Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:54:21 GMT Subject: Re: Sweet Dipping/Drying Cabinet but.. FILETIME=[B05C94B0:01C130F6] Hello Jeremy: under the sun to get rid of the problem and eventually figured it out. If you'll with varnish, changed the cleaner to artist grade mineral spirits, changedextraction rates, garded against silicone, made sure I didn't use steel wool soas to contaminate the rod and several other technique's, to no avail. When Ifinally thinned the varnish, the problem was gone. Hope this helps youout. and dipped a rod section today and when it came out it had a couple of barespot near the butt that will be under the grip. The rest of the finish isperfect on the first dunking. Should I remove all the finish and start over, orwait til the first coat dries and lightly sand the areas where the finish didn'tstick. I suspect a little residue from cleaning tape off the blank is the culprit. Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from timklein@qwest.net Wed Aug 29 22:00:59 2001 f7U30wZ25347 (63.229.224.184) Subject: FYI - Chinese Paynes I've received more than a half a dozen messages from people upset with meand my earlier post. One from Allan Liu (the "GreyFox" who is advertisingthese rods), and the rest from people who know Mr. Liu or Mr. Frank. All I've got to say to these people is: Did you even read my message before you decided to act like completeassholes? disparaging comments about the rods in question, I made NO disparagingcomments about the person selling them, and I made NO disparagingcommentsabout the person who might have been wrongly implicated as the personselling these rods. I simply remembered seeing the handle "GreyFox" in some list messages, so Iwent back to the archives and searched out who that person was. I tried tomake them aware of the messages being posted in case they were no longeronthe list. The message bounced so I inquired whether anyone knew the"GreyFox" who posted here. In my message I specifically said: "I doubt he's connected with this in any way (a WHOIS search came up with adifferent name as the owner of the domain name)" Seems pretty clear to me, so friends of Mr. Frank can climb off my ass now. Mr. Liu went so far as to question my intelligence, though that's a bit ofthe pot calling the kettle black since I made no statement whatsoever aboutthe rods in question. Get a life people.---Tim from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Aug 29 22:15:51 2001 f7U3FoZ26378 ([209.178.136.99] helo=g2t8c9) Subject: a simple tip for todds site This is a multi-part message in MIME format. 1. A great tip is to make a Medved beveler and make your untapered 60* =strips2. To help maintain a level plane, start it off level. The way I do this =is to place the rear of the plane on top of the form and the toe on the =end of the cane. I know my plane is flat and my form is flat. When the =blade contacts the cane it is exactly parallel to the form. Lift the =rear of the plane from the form and keep it level and move forward. = I am currently working on being able to mount a small bubble level to =the plane. This will insure a level plane is kept level on those late =nights. Adam Vigil 1. A great tip is to make a Medved = your untapered 60* strips2. To help maintain a level plane, = level. The way I do this is to place the rear of the plane on top of the = and the toe on the end of the cane. I know my plane is flat and my form = the rear of the plane from the form and keep it level and move forward. = I am currently working on being able to= small bubble level to the plane. This will insure a level plane is kept = those late nights. AdamVigil from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Aug 29 22:59:31 2001 f7U3xUZ28266 ([209.178.136.99] helo=g2t8c9) Subject: Re: FYI - Chinese Paynes Tim, I read your post and it was clear to me. It always amazes me who people onthe list react to some posts. It is as if they quite do not understand whatthey read. It is like watching a game of "Telephone" online. from what I got out of your message was: You went to China hunting for aGreyfox only to find the hunting was bad so you bought a Payne rod that wasmade by a chinese man and it was the best looking rod east of the HenryFork. At least thats what I read from your post. All I know is that I am upsetyou did not send back a case of those rods to distribute to those guys who Some guys need to relax. Best Regards, Tim just ignore those guys Adam VigilP.S. for those who did not get it I was being saracstic...duh!----- Original Message ----- Subject: FYI - Chinese Paynes I've received more than a half a dozen messages from people upset withmeand my earlier post. One from Allan Liu (the "GreyFox" who is advertisingthese rods), and the rest from people who know Mr. Liu or Mr. Frank. All I've got to say to these people is: Did you even read my message before you decided to act like completeassholes? disparaging comments about the rods in question, I made NO disparagingcomments about the person selling them, and I made NO disparagingcommentsabout the person who might have been wrongly implicated as the personselling these rods. I simply remembered seeing the handle "GreyFox" in some list messages, soIwent back to the archives and searched out who that person was. I tried tomake them aware of the messages being posted in case they were nolongeronthe list. The message bounced so I inquired whether anyone knew the"GreyFox" who posted here. In my message I specifically said: "I doubt he's connected with this in any way (a WHOIS search came up withadifferent name as the owner of the domain name)" Seems pretty clear to me, so friends of Mr. Frank can climb off my assnow. Mr. Liu went so far as to question my intelligence, though that's a bit ofthe pot calling the kettle black since I made no statement whatsoeveraboutthe rods in question. Get a life people.---Tim from caneman@clnk.com Wed Aug 29 23:33:19 2001 f7U4XHZ29721 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Chinese Paynes-- Long and argumentative... so don't read if youdon't have the time... Gentlemen,First off, this website was pointed out to me by Hans Weilenmann, a verywell respected collector of fine cane rods and one of the most respected flytyers in existance. He pointed it out because he was quite frankly ratherappauled that something like that would show up on a website and be called"the best"... he also pointed it out, because he knows how I feel aboutshoddy workmanship on cane rods. Nothing hurts us more, as rodmakers,than RODLOOKS LIKE????", thinking in the back of their mind, "no way I'm payingtwice the price of a Sage for a custom rod, then...". Hans knew I would goballistic and I'm sure he sat back and laughed as he pressed the SEND buttonand sent the URL my way, knowing exactly how I would react!NOW!!! I would like to publicly apologize to Tim Klein... If I hadn'tgone off on a rant about those ludicrous rods, then Tim wouldn't have madehis very appropriate post and whoever it was that fired off at him would nothave done so.I apparently didn't understand Tim's post, as I read it that he hadsearched and found Franks moniker to be Grey Fox, but I understood it toalso say that he had researched and said that he doubted the lists "GreyFox"was the same as the one on the site... re-read his original email and see ifthat isn't correct. If that is correct, then anyone reading the postentirely, would have no reason whatsoever to be upset with Tim... Just incase there was something in invisible ink in there that I missed then Iguess to be on the safe side, I'll go ahead and say "Tim... You're a jerk!"*S* Just kidding Tim! :^)As for Mr. Liu questioning Tim's intelligence... well, I don't know Mr.Liu and understand from Tony S. that he's a nice guy and is well respectedin the fly tying end of the business... being a nice guy and a goodsupplier, and probably a much better flytier than most, doesn't qualify himto question a rodmakers intelligence when it comes to quality of rods, andif he wishes to do so, then he is more than welcome to question MINE! Timsaid nothing in his email about the rods on that website... nothing good,nothing bad... I was the one that commented on their quality, or lackthereof. So, whoever is being so kind as to forward Tims email to Mr. Liu,feel free to forward this one. If he feels like an exchange with me, tryingto convince me that I am of questionable intelligence or "unknowing" ofthings concerning cane rods, then tell him to bring along about a monthssupply of Sack Lunches, cause he's gonna be there for awhile... May be evenlonger if he cares to try to convince me that the rods on that site are,indeed, THE BEST!Friends of Frank... before you start on me, I emailed frank offlist, ina laughing manner, and told him I knew one of this crew (the list) wouldn'tmake and sell anything like that and call it the best... Frank has had a lotof good input on this list, and I enjoy his presence... hope he sticksaround for a long time. And Frank, hope you saw the humor in the email I Friends of Mr. Liu... Fire away at me if you want to, but don't comeunarmed... he may be a nice guy, but that doesn't mean he knows squataboutbamboo fly rods. Considering the claims on his website of the "Pain" rodbeing the "best", I feel quite sure he doesn't. That doesn't mean hedoesn't deserve respect in other areas of the flyfishing world, just that hehasn't earned mine so far as his opinion of what a quality bamboo fly rodmay be. I was told by one of the list members that these were perfectlymachined rods, no glue lines, exacting tapers... Okie dokie... I'll buythat, but that is only the mechanics of making a rod... not the essence ofit. Detail work, the time it takes to turn a pile of imported grass, rawnickel, cork and silk into a true thing of beauty AND a funtional tool atthe same time, is the essence... that, without a doubt, escapes the makersof the rods I see on that website. His website invited viewers to "Look atthe glue lines, inspect the wraps." I did inspect the pictures of the wrapsand you all read what I thought! No need to go farther with that... As forthe glue lines, OK, I'll agree.. in the pics, great glue lines, no apparentgaps, no visible flaws... folks, give me a week and I can train a raw boned,inexperienced, wet behind the ears teenager to put a rod together withoutglue lines... I know, as MY 14 year old just glued up his first section of arod (his very first try and it is near flawless) this past weekend and it isnothing short of top quality workmanship (the old man is proud of hisefforts, if you couldn't tell!). I do doubt however that my 14 year old, onwrapping his first rod when he completes it, will even DARE to think aboutputting up a website with pictures of his wraps and call them "The Best" andI can assure you, with me standing over his shoulder, this kids first rodwill have MUCH higher quality wraps than the "C. Pain" rods do... Again, aquote from his website. "Using the finest fittings, these C.Pains don'thave the look and feel of quality. They are best quality." Hmmmm... Well,again, all you have to do is look at the pictures he provided. Thoseferrules are pretty rough... the tip top definitly not of SnakeBrand or H&Hquality... 'nuf said. In my opinion, the hardware is very lacking... exceptthe reel seats, they look pretty nice!Now, those of you in the mood to fire away on someone, fire away on me.Tim did nothing to deserve the reprimands that he got from a few and hecertainly did nothing to solicit a questioning of his intelligenceconcerning rodmaking from someone who, to my knowledge, has neverpushed aplane across a piece of cane. I could be mistaken about that... justguessing, but I can't imagine that if he had ever made a cane rod, that he'dshower the Pains with such high praise.Again, Tim, I'm sorry that you got the brunt of this. My sincereapologies for causing you any unnecessary problems. Regards,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: FYI - Chinese Paynes I've received more than a half a dozen messages from people upset withmeand my earlier post. One from Allan Liu (the "GreyFox" who is advertisingthese rods), and the rest from people who know Mr. Liu or Mr. Frank. All I've got to say to these people is: Did you even read my message before you decided to act like completeassholes? disparaging comments about the rods in question, I made NO disparagingcomments about the person selling them, and I made NO disparagingcommentsabout the person who might have been wrongly implicated as the personselling these rods. I simply remembered seeing the handle "GreyFox" in some list messages, soIwent back to the archives and searched out who that person was. I tried tomake them aware of the messages being posted in case they were nolongeronthe list. The message bounced so I inquired whether anyone knew the"GreyFox" who posted here. In my message I specifically said: "I doubt he's connected with this in any way (a WHOIS search came up withadifferent name as the owner of the domain name)" Seems pretty clear to me, so friends of Mr. Frank can climb off my assnow. Mr. Liu went so far as to question my intelligence, though that's a bit ofthe pot calling the kettle black since I made no statement whatsoeveraboutthe rods in question. Get a life people.---Tim from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Aug 30 00:22:11 2001 f7U5MBZ01930 Subject: Re: FYI- Chinese Paynes This is a multi-part message in MIME format. TimWelcome to the jungle man!I agree with Adam And you DID NOT make any statement about the rod.You know myself being a veteran of the Gehrke wars, and not having anybamboo Zen, only lawyer skills, I tried to stay out of this last fire.But I just can't keep my mouth shut. I really tried hard not to write =anything about those rods. LOLHow do you compete, if your not allowed to compete?Bob was right and he is allowed to speak his mind.We live in a country with free trade and a constitutional right to free =speech.He DID NOT slander the guy. Man, I know my rods get looked over hard and = I'd rather have someone say it is crap, than to whisper it to his buddy.How else will you know how to correct the mistakes?I think that not only should you want ,but you should ask for an honest =opinionof your rods. Alot of you guys can attest to the fact that I do this.If your afraid of the results, than you won't improve.Ever heard "practice makes perfect" (it's wrong )"practices makes =permanent"You practice it wrong and you will keep doing it wrong.Tony MillerChief Defender of the Faith BODY {BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} TimWelcome to the jungle man!I agree with Adam And you DID NOT make any statement about the rod.You know myself being a veteran of the Gehrke wars, and not any fire.But I just can't keep my mouth shut. I really tried hard not to = anything about those rods. LOLHow do you compete, if your not allowed to compete?Bob was right and he is allowed to speak his mind.We live in a country with free trade and a constitutional right to = speech. hard and buddy.How else will you know how to correct the mistakes?I think that not only should you want ,but you should ask for an = opinion this.If your afraid of the results, than you won't improve.Ever permanent" Tony MillerChief Defender of the Faithwww.homestead.com/= from timklein@qwest.net Thu Aug 30 00:32:00 2001 f7U5VxZ02622 (63.225.241.233) Subject: Re: Chinese Paynes-- Long and argumentative... so don't read if youdon't have the time... Bob wrote: I would like to publicly apologize to Tim Klein... If I hadn'tgone off on a rant about those ludicrous rods, then Tim wouldn't havemade his very appropriate post and whoever it was that fired off athim would not have done so. Think nothing of it Bob. The mistake was theirs, not yours. When someone puts a statement like "Look at the glue lines, inspect thewraps" under pictures of rod details, it seems to me that he's asking for anassessment. You gave one, so don't even apologize for the initial post. Your credentials as a builder are well known here. If Mr. Liu was smart,he'd be asking for feedback from you and some of the other builders on thislist. (of course, now I'm questioning HIS intelligence) ... to be on the safe side, I'll go ahead and say "Tim... You're a jerk!" HEY! I resemble that remark! *S* Just kidding Tim! :^) (ooops! Nevermind.) Maybe even longer if he cares to try to convince me that the rodson that site are, indeed, THE BEST! Maybe they really are Bob. Maybe it's just his photographer who sucks? (then again, maybe not) Tim said nothing in his email about the rods on that website... nothinggood, nothing bad... Well, now I've gone and done it... (at least I'll deserve the replies this time) ---Tim from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Aug 30 00:40:59 2001 f7U5exZ03103 Subject: Bob very cool! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. That was very ,very cool. rod making community.You stood by your word and didn't let someone else hang.Tony Miller BODY {BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Bob That was very ,very cool.I mean it man.:) rod making community.You stood by your word and didn't let someone else hang.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from timklein@qwest.net Thu Aug 30 02:32:58 2001 f7U7WvZ05510 (63.225.241.233) "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: FYI - Chinese Paynes You wrote: You went to China hunting for a Greyfox only to find the hunting wasbad so you bought a Payne rod that was made by a chinese man andit was the best looking rod east of the Henry Fork. Well I'm glad SOMEBODY actually read my post and understood what the hell Iwas trying to say! Adam - I wish I hadn't been taking a sip of hot coffee as I read your reply.Milk's one thing, but hot coffee isn't something you want squirting out yournose while laughing. (anyone know how to clean snot and coffee from a keyboard?)---Tim from mschaffer@mindspring.com Thu Aug 30 06:27:18 2001 f7UBRHZ07506 Subject: Tip fpr Todd's site This is a multi-part message in MIME format. The following tip is not my idea, but it is something to take careful =note of: Laundry fabric softeners all contain silicone therefore any cloths, shop =rags, etc. which will come into contact with your rod or any surfaces =the rod will contact should NEVER be exposed to laundry softeners. All = shop rags get washed eventually, that's OK, they just don't get exposed =to softeners. The reason for this is that silicone will mess up the = Mike The following tip is not my idea, but = something to take careful note of: Laundry fabric softeners all contain = therefore any cloths, shop rags, etc. which will come into contact with = shop rags get washed eventually, that's= Mike from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Thu Aug 30 06:50:13 2001 f7UBoDZ07990 Subject: RE: FYI - Chinese Paynes SNOT and Coffee won't hurt the keyboard, but the "sugar cane" will do it in. If it's not that bad water and a hair dryer - If it's an Apple keyboard theybrag that you can submerge them in water. Pete -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: FYI - Chinese Paynes You wrote: You went to China hunting for a Greyfox only to find the hunting wasbad so you bought a Payne rod that was made by a chinese man andit was the best looking rod east of the Henry Fork. Well I'm glad SOMEBODY actually read my post and understood what the hell Iwas trying to say! Adam - I wish I hadn't been taking a sip of hot coffee as I read your reply.Milk's one thing, but hot coffee isn't something you want squirting out yournose while laughing. (anyone know how to clean snot and coffee from a keyboard?)---Tim from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Aug 30 07:47:24 2001 f7UClNZ09081 Subject: Re: FYI - Chinese Paynes/ENOUGH IS ENOUGH OK guys time for me to chime in here. We have about beaten this horse to death. The next person who even thinks about adding another post aboutthis Chinese sh-t on here think twice. We do not need any more on this post. Back to rod building questions and answers. OH YEH next time someone sees something like this site on the web leave it there because I for one do not care to SEE, READ, or HEAR about someone's sh-t rods. And one other thing, you guys who take it upon yourselves to BLAST one of us on and off the list keep that to yourself and DO NOT go BLASTING someone here who hasprobably given more to the list than some of the rest could ever hope to. After this post any post that has the Chinese Paynes will go to the trash pile for recycle, so if you have something to say to me about this post CHANGE the heading dudes or it will not be read. And think twice before you slam me in your post because I have not had my Coca cola yet today. OK guys nuff said you all have a "Great day," YUCK, I hate that expression. Bret this horse to post about this someone sees something like this site on the web leave it there because I for one donot other thing, you guys who take it upon yourselves to BLAST one of us on and off thelist keep that to yourself and DO NOT go BLASTING someone here who hasprobably given more to the list than some of the rest could ever hope to. post any post that has the Chinese Paynes will go to the trash pile for recycle, so if you have something to say to me about this post CHANGEthe slam me in guys nuff said Bret from beadman@mac.com Thu Aug 30 07:51:03 2001 f7UCp3Z09262 Subject: RE: FYI - Chinese Paynes Water maybe, but not much else, Pete. I set down a glass of good microbrew next to my iMac keyboard one evening, but failed to notice I set it on a pencil. When I let go of the glass, it dumped about 6 ounces of beer onto the keyboard. I immediately hit the surge protector power switch, unplugged the keyboard, and took it into the bathroom where I thoroughly rinsed it in clean water. Then used the hairdryer on "air only" setting (no heat) to dry it out. After it was dry, I gave it an additional 24 hours of drying time, then plugged it back in. Deader than a door nail... Fortunately, CompUSA was only 4 miles away. Claude At 7:48 AM -0400 on 8/30/01, Peter Van Schaack wrote about RE: FYI - Chinese Paynes SNOT and Coffee won't hurt the keyboard, but the "sugar cane" will do it in. If it's not that bad water and a hair dryer - If it's an Apple keyboard theybrag that you can submerge them in water. Pete -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 3:32 AM Subject: Re: FYI - Chinese Paynes You wrote: You went to China hunting for a Greyfox only to find the hunting wasbad so you bought a Payne rod that was made by a chinese man andit was the best looking rod east of the Henry Fork. Well I'm glad SOMEBODY actually read my post and understood what the hell Iwas trying to say! Adam - I wish I hadn't been taking a sip of hot coffee as I read your reply.Milk's one thing, but hot coffee isn't something you want squirting out yournose while laughing. (anyone know how to clean snot and coffee from a keyboard?)---Tim from dmanders@telusplanet.net Thu Aug 30 07:53:28 2001 f7UCrRZ09506 Thu, 30 Aug 2001 06:53:21 -0600 Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs + some additional thoughts Barry et al, In graphing there is one more thing that sheds light on just where the rodaction will take place.If you graph the difference between the stations, the "flat" spots,parabolic droops and other non-linear taper changes become readilyapparent.Further, depending on rod length, the working length of the rod divided bythe change from tip to the end of the working length will yield a change of0.012">0.016"/5" of rod length. Rods in the 0.016"/5" rate of change tendto be fast whereas rods in the 0.012"/5" of rod length will be slow. Thesenumbers are of course modified for rods of extreme lengths, either long orshort. regards, Don At 04:36 PM 8/29/01 -0500, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Dear Friends: I want to begin by thanking all of you who shared advice on solving mynodeless scarf problems, I'm trying various solutions. I know some experienced members of the list will disagree with me, but inmy(admittedly few) years of rodmaking I have found a simple taper graph (withflat-to-flat measurement on the vertical axis and distance from the tip in 5inch intervals on the horizontal) to be much more useful than the stressgraphs produced by hexrod or Garrison's math. When looking at a simple taper graph, it is easy for me to imagine thestress of a cast moving from the tip down the shaft. In sections of theshaft that increase in size at a steady rate (which is to say, becomesstronger at a steady rate as you move down from the tip), increasingstresson the rod will produce a smooth curve in the shaft. Where a section of theshaft increases at a slower rate (that is, where there is a flatter sectionof the line on the graph) the rod will bend more at that point than it wouldhave in a rod where the line had continued to increase at a steady rate.This will be what some have called a "hinge" in the rod, though that'salways seemed a rather drastic description to me. If, instead, the shaft thickness increases at a more rapid rate, making asteeper section of the line, this shows an area of the shaft that isbecoming stiffer at a more rapid rate and will have more resistance tobending than the adjacent areas. (Ferrules can be modeled by showing a"bump" in the curve, which is to say a stiffer area, at the ferrulelocation.) Some rods, like most of Garrison's, have a straight-line taper after thefirst few inches. Some rods have a flat spot at two different places in thetaper -- one about a third of the way down, and one about two thirds ormoredown from the tip. These rods tend to respond mainly with the top third ofthe rod in short gentle casts, but when more line and stronger castingmotions are used the bottom portion gets into the act and provides thekindof power seen in so-called parabolic. Granger and Phillipson rods usuallyhave tapers of this sort. A rod with a long low hump from tip to butt, except for a flatter spot justabove the grip, is generally called "parabolic." With this sort of rod youcan't readily make gentle short casts that engage only the tip section(because the tip doesn't tend to bend independently from the rest of theshaft), but the rod excels on long casts that flex deep into the buttsection, bringing the power of the whole shaft fully into play. In other words, the relationship between the look of a taper graph and therod's performance is relatively straightforward. Not that you can telleverything about a rod from the graph. You can't take an 8.5' Phillipsontaper and simply shrink it to 7 feet. I'm just saying that the kind ofknowledge available from a stress chart is available from the graph in amuch simpler and more straightforward way. Some argue that, unlike simple taper charts, stress charts help youdetermine whether your taper will over-stress a particular section of thebamboo. But the literal stresses shown in the charts are arbitrary (asMilward has shown) and don't reflect real world stresses. They are not evenclose. If Milward is right, stress charts are what I call scientistic. Theyare really just a judgment call, dressed up in a coat of numbers andformulas that make them seem scienterrific. If you've used stress curveslong enough that you can relate the look of the curve to performance, Isuppose they're as good as anything else. But I've never heard anyconvincing argument for their superiority to simple taper curves -- except ifthe stresses shown are so wildly incorrect, the ability of Hexrod tomeaningfully "convert" a taper from one size to another based on stressesisquestionable, too. That is why I asked a few weeks ago, and ask again now, whether anyonecanconvincingly challenge Milward's findings that the stresses in theHexrod(Garrison) charts have no relation to reality. Unless Milward iswrong, Hexrod/Garrison stress charts are a very indirect, unnecessarilycomplicated, and in an important sense a misleading way to describe a flyrod taper. And don't forget -- the fact that engineers have trouble modelingsomethingin math doesn't mean that thing is somehow beyond practicalunderstanding.Sometimes a simple graphic approach is more useful than one based oncalculus, even for engineers. IMHO, of course. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 3:02 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Rod Stress Grapghs Hi Robert,I'll tell you what they told me when I asked the same question. There justisn't a short cut. You have to go to gatherings, visit places where you cancast bamboo rods, study the curves of the rods you cast and work it outovertime. It's finally coming together a bit for me but it is still ratherfuzzy and is likely to stay that way since I get to cast a selection of rodsjust once a year, at SRG. Best regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com RHOLDER@SMURFIT.COM wrote:Hello all, The last couple of days I have been contemplating the couple of rods Ibuilt. The tapers were recommended by many other builders that theyweregood rods to begin with. So now that they are complete I have been thinkingof my next project and which rod I wanted to build. So the fist step I tookwas to look and the many tapers that are listed on both the Rodmakers website and the Hexrod web site and the stress curve graphs. Well afterlooking at a lot of the different rods and their graphs, I started wonderingwhat the relationship of the stress curve graph and the rods performancewould be. Then I realized that I am looking at the graphs but not reallytotally understanding what I am looking at. So I then sat down and read thedocument "Hexrod Explained" by W. Cattanach several times. The documentsure explained how the math was derived for the graphs. But still afterreading the document I find my self asking the same questions that I hadbefore. How can you somewha!!!!t judge a rods fundamental performance by looking at the stress graph? Idoknow that there are many factors that can alter a rod performance liketypeof glue used, heat treating, varnish, the cane itself, etc. Also I dounderstand that the end result of the rod to a builders may feel just rightto him, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it feels right for anotherbuilder. But putting all the other variables aside and getting down to thebasics, can anyone help explain to me what I am looking for in the graphsand how that affect a rods performance? Thanks in advance to all whommayreply to this email. Robert HolderHome email: b2g@jps.net Work email: rholder@smurfit.com from anglport@con2.com Thu Aug 30 07:54:02 2001 f7UCs2Z09588 Subject: Re: a simple tip for todds site This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Along those same lines, Jack Howell in The Lovely Reed points out =that standing a mirror at the end of your form will accomplish the =levelling of the plane ( and in a continuing way, not just at start-off =I might add, as "leaning into" the planing action often changes the =plane's attitude with respect to the form) and says that that bit of =insight is worth the price of his book. I had had some problems with the =plane drifting off-level and it certainly helped me! Do it for a very =short while and your wrist "learns" the correct feel holding the plane.Also, I don't recall seeing this recently, but before I had access =to Chris Bogart's excellent "tuning" article for the Garrison Binder =(http://www.canerod.com/Tools/Index.html), I found adding 3' lengths of =1/2" EMT (essentially plated steel used for running wires in NY City's =anally retentive electrical codes) greatly helped with twists and bends = leaving the binder. You need to use a 3/8"dowell with a wad of tissue =and vinegar to flush them with after the wrapping ( or you'll soon have =metal- enclosed rods of Epon instead of tubes *G*), but that's a small =price to pay for the help they provide.Art Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 11:11 PMSubject: a simple tip for todds site 1. A great tip is to make a Medved beveler and make your untapered 60* =strips2. To help maintain a level plane, start it off level. The way I do =this is to place the rear of the plane on top of the form and the toe on =the end of the cane. I know my plane is flat and my form is flat. When =the blade contacts the cane it is exactly parallel to the form. Lift the =rear of the plane from the form and keep it level and move forward. = I am currently working on being able to mount a small bubble level to =the plane. This will insure a level plane is kept level on those late =nights. Adam Vigil = Howell in The Lovely Reed points out that standing a mirror at = your form will accomplish the levelling of the plane ( and in a = not just at start-off I might add, as "leaning into" the planing action = changes the plane's attitude with respect to the form) and says that = insight is worth the price of his book. I had had some problems with the = drifting off-level and it certainly helped me! Do it for a very short = your wrist "learns" the correct feel holding the plane. = recently, but before I had access to Chris Bogart's excellent "tuning" = running wires in NY City's anally retentive electrical codes) greatly = in the air when leaving the binder. You need to use a 3/8"dowell with a = tissue and vinegar to flush them with after the wrapping ( or you'll = metal-enclosed rods of Epon instead of tubes *G*), but that's a small = pay for the help they provide.Art ----- Original Message ----- Vigil Sent: Wednesday, August 29, = PMSubject: a simple tip for todds = site 1. A great tip is to make a Medved = make your untapered 60* strips2. To help maintain a level plane, = level. The way I do this is to place the rear of the plane on top of = and the toe on the end of the cane. I know my plane is flat and my = form. Lift the rear of the plane from the form and keep it level and = I am currently working on being able = small bubble level to the plane. This will insure a level plane is = on those late nights. Adam =Vigil from patrick.w.coffey@Boeing.com Thu Aug 30 08:40:01 2001 f7UDe0Z11875 IAA01522 GAA10104 f7UDdrw12841 (5.5.2650.21) Subject: plastic rods Last night on OLN they were giving out rewards for outdoor gear and thewinner of the flyrod category was a Sage 590. They showed some poor guycasting it and my heart went out to him having to work so hard with his"FAST" action rod, to get enough line out to make a decent cast. Oh wellsome peoples children never ever learn. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Aug 30 09:06:50 2001 f7UE6nZ12919 f7UE6nc01283 Subject: Off list message about the Rods I received an off list message that I am not happyabout.It stated that I ran to my friend and told himabout the bad things said about his rods.Lets get this clear, I in no way contacted Allanabout this.If you notice Allan's replies were also to thelist, in order to post on the list you have to bea member of the list and receive the messagesposted. from that I gather he did receive all theposted messages.Nuf Said I don't need this crap.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from bamboorods@saber.net Thu Aug 30 09:15:49 2001 f7UEFmZ13513 Subject: Bishop Gathering This is a multi-part message in MIME format. TIA,Chris Can anyone give me the website = TIA,Chris from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Aug 30 09:41:10 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f7UEf9Z14892 (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Rod Stress Grapghs Frank - I did exactly what you suggest, and I agree with Milward that theyare arbitrary and do not accurately estimate the actual stressesexperienced analysis except for variations on one of two themes - "Garrison is great" or"you'd understand if you were smart enough." Neither of these approachesanswers the question. Garrison is (was) great, some of us are plenty smartand experienced enough to understand Garrison's approach, and no one hasyettaken up the challenge. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Rod Stress Grapghs I feel a little like Terry Ackland saying this, but... Anyone who wants to understand what stress curves say, should start and maybe an introductory engineering book as a reference. Thinkcarefully about the stress components as you calculate them. curve and which are ignored. Then you can decide for yourself whether stress curves are useful or not, in building flyrods. Computers make it too easy to go click-click-click and get some numbersand believe they are the whole truth. They are not. But neither arethey meaningless. ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Aug 30 09:41:13 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f7UEfCZ14905 (5.5.2653.19) KlingB@health.missouri.edu, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs + some additional thoughts Good points, thanks for sharing them....Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs + some additional thoughts Barry et al, In graphing there is one more thing that sheds light on just where the rodaction will take place.If you graph the difference between the stations, the "flat" spots,parabolic droops and other non-linear taper changes become readilyapparent.Further, depending on rod length, the working length of the rod divided bythe change from tip to the end of the working length will yield a change of0.012">0.016"/5" of rod length. Rods in the 0.016"/5" rate of change tendto be fast whereas rods in the 0.012"/5" of rod length will be slow. Thesenumbers are of course modified for rods of extreme lengths, either long orshort. regards, Don At 04:36 PM 8/29/01 -0500, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Dear Friends: I want to begin by thanking all of you who shared advice on solving mynodeless scarf problems, I'm trying various solutions. I know some experienced members of the list will disagree with me, but inmy(admittedly few) years of rodmaking I have found a simple taper graph (withflat-to-flat measurement on the vertical axis and distance from the tip in5inch intervals on the horizontal) to be much more useful than the stressgraphs produced by hexrod or Garrison's math. When looking at a simple taper graph, it is easy for me to imagine thestress of a cast moving from the tip down the shaft. In sections of theshaft that increase in size at a steady rate (which is to say, becomesstronger at a steady rate as you move down from the tip), increasingstresson the rod will produce a smooth curve in the shaft. Where a section of theshaft increases at a slower rate (that is, where there is a flatter sectionof the line on the graph) the rod will bend more at that point than itwouldhave in a rod where the line had continued to increase at a steady rate.This will be what some have called a "hinge" in the rod, though that'salways seemed a rather drastic description to me. If, instead, the shaft thickness increases at a more rapid rate, making asteeper section of the line, this shows an area of the shaft that isbecoming stiffer at a more rapid rate and will have more resistance tobending than the adjacent areas. (Ferrules can be modeled by showing a"bump" in the curve, which is to say a stiffer area, at the ferrulelocation.) Some rods, like most of Garrison's, have a straight-line taper after thefirst few inches. Some rods have a flat spot at two different places in thetaper -- one about a third of the way down, and one about two thirds ormoredown from the tip. These rods tend to respond mainly with the top third ofthe rod in short gentle casts, but when more line and stronger castingmotions are used the bottom portion gets into the act and provides thekindof power seen in so-called parabolic. Granger and Phillipson rods usuallyhave tapers of this sort. A rod with a long low hump from tip to butt, except for a flatter spot justabove the grip, is generally called "parabolic." With this sort of rod youcan't readily make gentle short casts that engage only the tip section(because the tip doesn't tend to bend independently from the rest of theshaft), but the rod excels on long casts that flex deep into the buttsection, bringing the power of the whole shaft fully into play. In other words, the relationship between the look of a taper graph and therod's performance is relatively straightforward. Not that you can telleverything about a rod from the graph. You can't take an 8.5' Phillipsontaper and simply shrink it to 7 feet. I'm just saying that the kind ofknowledge available from a stress chart is available from the graph in amuch simpler and more straightforward way. Some argue that, unlike simple taper charts, stress charts help youdetermine whether your taper will over-stress a particular section of thebamboo. But the literal stresses shown in the charts are arbitrary (asMilward has shown) and don't reflect real world stresses. They are not evenclose. If Milward is right, stress charts are what I call scientistic. Theyare really just a judgment call, dressed up in a coat of numbers andformulas that make them seem scienterrific. If you've used stress curveslong enough that you can relate the look of the curve to performance, Isuppose they're as good as anything else. But I've never heard anyconvincing argument for their superiority to simple taper curves -- except ifthe stresses shown are so wildly incorrect, the ability of Hexrod tomeaningfully "convert" a taper from one size to another based on stressesisquestionable, too. That is why I asked a few weeks ago, and ask again now, whether anyonecanconvincingly challenge Milward's findings that the stresses in theHexrod(Garrison) charts have no relation to reality. Unless Milward iswrong, Hexrod/Garrison stress charts are a very indirect, unnecessarilycomplicated, and in an important sense a misleading way to describe a flyrod taper. And don't forget -- the fact that engineers have trouble modelingsomethingin math doesn't mean that thing is somehow beyond practicalunderstanding.Sometimes a simple graphic approach is more useful than one based oncalculus, even for engineers. IMHO, of course. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 3:02 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Rod Stress Grapghs Hi Robert,I'll tell you what they told me when I asked the same question. There justisn't a short cut. You have to go to gatherings, visit places where youcancast bamboo rods, study the curves of the rods you cast and work it outovertime. It's finally coming together a bit for me but it is still ratherfuzzy and is likely to stay that way since I get to cast a selection ofrodsjust once a year, at SRG. Best regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com RHOLDER@SMURFIT.COM wrote:Hello all, The last couple of days I have been contemplating the couple of rods Ibuilt. The tapers were recommended by many other builders that theyweregood rods to begin with. So now that they are complete I have beenthinkingof my next project and which rod I wanted to build. So the fist step Itookwas to look and the many tapers that are listed on both the Rodmakers website and the Hexrod web site and the stress curve graphs. Well afterlooking at a lot of the different rods and their graphs, I startedwonderingwhat the relationship of the stress curve graph and the rods performancewould be. Then I realized that I am looking at the graphs but not reallytotally understanding what I am looking at. So I then sat down and readthedocument "Hexrod Explained" by W. Cattanach several times. The documentsure explained how the math was derived for the graphs. But still afterreading the document I find my self asking the same questions that I hadbefore. How can you somewha!!!!t judge a rods fundamental performance by looking at the stress graph? Idoknow that there are many factors that can alter a rod performance liketypeof glue used, heat treating, varnish, the cane itself, etc. Also I dounderstand that the end result of the rod to a builders may feel just rightto him, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it feels right for anotherbuilder. But putting all the other variables aside and getting down to thebasics, can anyone help explain to me what I am looking for in the graphsand how that affect a rods performance? Thanks in advance to all whommayreply to this email. Robert HolderHome email: b2g@jps.net Work email: rholder@smurfit.com from patrick.w.coffey@Boeing.com Thu Aug 30 10:07:36 2001 f7UF7ZZ16470 KAA14514; IAA06914; f7UF7Ww27477; (5.5.2650.21) "'flytyr@southshore.com'" Subject: RE: Off list message about the Rods did I miss something, Haven't seen any posting from Alan Lui come throughmycomputer from the list. Not doubting you just interested in what he had tosay. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:08 AM Subject: Off list message about the Rods I received an off list message that I am not happyabout.It stated that I ran to my friend and told himabout the bad things said about his rods.Lets get this clear, I in no way contacted Allanabout this.If you notice Allan's replies were also to thelist, in order to post on the list you have to bea member of the list and receive the messagesposted. from that I gather he did receive all theposted messages.Nuf Said I don't need this crap.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from rodwrapp@swbell.net Thu Aug 30 11:30:15 2001 f7UGUEZ20565 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Re: Off list message about the Rods I have not seen Alan Lui post anything.. This is weird because seems like Ionly see half of a discusion .. Sometimes I read the Emails and I feel likewhere the Subject?? Thanks dave----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Off list message about the Rods did I miss something, Haven't seen any posting from Alan Lui come throughmycomputer from the list. Not doubting you just interested in what he had tosay. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:08 AM Subject: Off list message about the Rods I received an off list message that I am not happyabout.It stated that I ran to my friend and told himabout the bad things said about his rods.Lets get this clear, I in no way contacted Allanabout this.If you notice Allan's replies were also to thelist, in order to post on the list you have to bea member of the list and receive the messagesposted. from that I gather he did receive all theposted messages.Nuf Said I don't need this crap.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from rodwrapp@swbell.net Thu Aug 30 11:34:49 2001 f7UGYmZ20937 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Tips This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Before I dip a rod I wipe down with denatured Alchol, then I wipe down withmineral Spirits, then I take my chese cloth and tack rod down, then Dip.. Ihave had no problems yet... Thanks Dave Before I dip a rod I wipe down with denatured cloth Dave from rextutor@about.com Thu Aug 30 12:02:56 2001 f7UH2tZ22387 (NPlex 5.5.029) 2001 09:55:34 -0700 Subject: sanding fine tips breakage. taper seems more consistent and there is no scaring of the cane, that is there are no visible lines because I am using 150 grit. I have more control of the actual size and the pressure is light so I don't it. I do have a scraper but it is a plane that breaks these tiny tips, too . I do alot better with the larger tapers. I am building a it cheating ?(LOL) I know someone sells sanding blocks but how are they used ? What grit ? Sign up fora free About Email account at http://About.com from harms1@pa.net Thu Aug 30 12:23:03 2001 f7UHN2Z23628 Subject: Re: sanding fine tips Rex, Nothing wrong with sanding, if you can make it work. I have often used mylittle 6" mill file for troublesome node areas that don't want to planenicely, and I would trust the flatness of its surface over that of blockedsandpaper. But wait. Why are you having trouble planing down to .035? Really, youought to be able to plane down to absolutely ANY thickness withoutdifficulty--even right out to a feather edge. Thickness itself shouldn't bean issue. Something else is going wrong. At the risk of being insulting, I'm wondering if perhaps your plane iron istruly sharp. Or, again, maybe you are trying to take too much off in thefinal passes. (A shaving of .002"- .004" is a great plenty, and less isbetter). Or, perhaps the throat of your plane needs to be adjusted to itsnarrowest opening. Also, I might add that for the final .010" I have always shifted over to mylittle Lie-Nelson bronze plane. It is small, has a great iron, and the"feel" of it in my hand is almost like touching the cane itself. You canreally sense how the plane is moving through the cane. Also, with a freshlysharpened iron, precise shavings of nearly .001" are possible. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: sanding fine tips I have tried and tried to plane down to .035 with alot of breakage.I decided to try sanding after I plane down to around .045. Thetaper seems more consistent and there is no scaring of the cane, thatis there are no visible lines because I am using 150 grit. I havemore control of the actual size and the pressure is light so I don'tbreak it. I don't see this solution in my books. I may have missedit. I do have a scraper but it is a plane that breaks these tinytips, too . I do alot better with the larger tapers. I am building athree section and have never had to go so small. Do some of you moreexperienced guys see a problem with sanding instead of planing ? Isit cheating ?(LOL) I know someone sells sanding blocks but how arethey used ? What grit ? Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Aug 30 12:38:09 2001 f7UHc9Z24720 MAA13364 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 Subject: RE: Rod Stress Grapghs Barry, Milward's _Analysis_ shows that, as you state, Garrison's stress calculations do not represent what goes on in a rod during casting. I don't recall anyone objecting to this. I don't. He is correct.We went over this last month. Milward's _Broader Conclusion_ seem to be that Garrison's stresscalculations are therefore not useful in rod design. I happen to disagree with this. The Garrison stress numbers are real stresses within the rod. If the total stress is comprised of a static part and a dynamic (casting) part, the Garrison numbers are the static part. I think its valuable to know this one piece of the whole. To me that's better than knowing no pieces. I think we are arguing over whether the Garrison stress numbersmeasure 0% or 5% or 10% of what is going on in the rod. Maybe we should be discussing what the other 90+% looks like. Milward gives us some pictures and that is a place to start. Its interesting how Milward has gored a lot of our personal oxen. I hear the price of flamed rods are sinking like a clouser minnow :- )......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Frank - I did exactly what you suggest, and I agree with Milward that theyare arbitrary and do not accurately estimate the actual stressesexperienced analysis except for variations on one of two themes - "Garrison is great"or"you'd understand if you were smart enough." Neither of these approachesanswers the question. Garrison is (was) great, some of us are plentysmartand experienced enough to understand Garrison's approach, and no one hasyettaken up the challenge. Barry from gjm80301@yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 13:05:07 2001 f7UI56Z26691 Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:05:04 PDT Subject: RE: Rod Stress Grapghs Still flaming and looking at those stress numbers here. I agree with you Frank. We have along way to go, but let's use whatwe "got" for now. I can understand the folks getting used to and liking a simple graph,but I fell that the stress curves do go one step further in makingcomparisons across rods. I pressed Wayne at Grayrock about how hecombined tapers and that is when he went into some detail about howhe really usues the stress numbers - to define character. Thatanswer helped in making two things clear: how you might start to goabout it and that there clearly is art involved here and not allscience. Next question will be: do we really want to get to where it'sentirely scientific? Jerry --- Frank Stetzer wrote:Barry, Milward's _Analysis_ shows that, as you state, Garrison's stress calculations do not represent what goes on in a rod during casting. I don't recall anyone objecting to this. I don't. He is correct.We went over this last month. Milward's _Broader Conclusion_ seem to be that Garrison's stresscalculations are therefore not useful in rod design. I happen to disagree with this. The Garrison stress numbers are real stresses within the rod. If the total stress is comprised of a static part and a dynamic (casting) part, the Garrison numbers are the staticpart. I think its valuable to know this one piece of the whole. To methat's better than knowing no pieces. I think we are arguing over whether the Garrison stress numbersmeasure 0% or 5% or 10% of what is going on in the rod. Maybe we should be discussing what the other 90+% looks like. Milward gives us some pictures and that is a place to start. Its interesting how Milward has gored a lot of our personal oxen. I hear the price of flamed rods are sinking like a clouser minnow:-) ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade isbetterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry VanDyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Frank - I did exactly what you suggest, and I agree with Milwardthat theyare arbitrary and do not accurately estimate the actual stressesexperienced Milward'sanalysis except for variations on one of two themes - "Garrisonis great" or"you'd understand if you were smart enough." Neither of theseapproachesanswers the question. Garrison is (was) great, some of us areplenty smartand experienced enough to understand Garrison's approach, and noone has yettaken up the challenge. Barry __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!Messengerhttp://im.yahoo.com from Kengorific@aol.com Thu Aug 30 13:10:31 2001 f7UIAUZ27255 Subject: need help with spar varnish I used Helmsman spar urethane on my first two rods with good results. NowI decided to try a true spar varnish on my current project and am having problems. I used McCoskey Marine Spar Varnish (#7509 Gloss) straight from the can, I used the 'film canister' dip method on blanks that were pre- finished with one coat of tung oil during construction. The label says it will dry to touch in 6 hours, 24 hours for a light sanding between coats. I let the blanks dry overnight, the first problem I noticed were some drips and wrinkles in the finish. The finishe after 24 hrs was way to soft (still tacky) for sanding. Now after 5 days of drying I find that they still gum up a 500 grit wet/dry paper. HELP! What did I do wrong? And what is the best way to procede from here? Questions for the more experienced... 1) How long should it take for true spar to dry between sandings?2) Would thinning the varnish with mineral spirits eliminate the drips and wrinkles?3) Would heating the finish help?4) Should I be wet sanding between coats?5) Can I fix this finish or should I just strip it with citrus solvewnt and start over, maybe go back to the urethane?6) I would prefere a semi-gloss or matte finish, can I add something to the spar varnish to change the finish gloss? from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Thu Aug 30 13:29:24 2001 f7UITNZ28842 Subject: Re: need help with spar varnish Go back to the poly! Joseph A Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith Rd.Portageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 Go back to the poly! www.geneseevalleyrods.com Portageville,NY 14536 from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 13:31:02 2001 f7UIV1Z29104 Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:31:02 PDT Subject: Re: need help with spar varnish DON'T FIX IT IF IT WORKS! TIMOTHY :-)--- Kengorific@aol.com wrote:I used Helmsman spar urethane on my first two rodswith good results. Now I decided to try a true spar varnish on my currentproject and am having problems. I used McCoskey Marine Spar Varnish (#7509 Gloss)straight from the can, I used the 'film canister' dip method on blanks thatwere pre- finished with one coat of tung oil during construction. The labelsays it will dry to touch in 6 hours, 24 hours for a light sanding between coats.I let the blanks dry overnight, the first problem I noticed were somedrips and wrinkles in the finish. The finishe after 24 hrs was way to soft(still tacky) for sanding. Now after 5 days of drying I find that they stillgum up a 500 grit wet/dry paper. HELP! What did I do wrong? And what is thebest way to procede from here? Questions for the more experienced... 1) How long should it take for true spar to drybetween sandings?2) Would thinning the varnish with mineral spiritseliminate the drips and wrinkles?3) Would heating the finish help?4) Should I be wet sanding between coats?5) Can I fix this finish or should I just strip itwith citrus solvewnt and start over, maybe go back to the urethane?6) I would prefere a semi-gloss or matte finish,can I add something to the spar varnish to change the finish gloss? ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!Messengerhttp://im.yahoo.com from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Aug 30 13:32:31 2001 f7UIWUZ29391 Subject: Re:need help with spar varnish This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Don't give up the varnish yet.First, yes, you need to thin the varnish. What you are experiencing is humidity problems.I live in a real humid place, so I made a drying cabinet.Not to dry the varnish quicker ,but to solve humidity problem.And it seems to work.I dip my rods,so I'm not sure what you mean by the film canister method.I would strip the rod with a mild stripper and start over.that sticky varnish will take a month to dry.Don't wet sand, dry sand.If you want a matte finish don't varnish at all and apply a low gloss =tung oil.Several coats with and 3m pad in-between coatsJust my 2 centsTony Miller BODY {BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Don't give up the varnish yet.First, yes, you need to thin the varnish.my varnish dries in 24 hours. What you are experiencing is humidity problems. cabinet.Not to dry the varnish quicker ,but to solve humidity =problem.And it seems to work. method.I would strip the rod with a mild stripper and start over.that sticky varnish will take a month to dry.Don't wet sand, dry sand.If you want a matte finish don't varnish at all and apply a low = oil. Just my 2 centsTony Millerwww.homestead.com/= from Canerods@aol.com Thu Aug 30 14:00:52 2001 f7UJ0pZ01538 Subject: Re: Bishop Gathering Chris, I'm in the process of moving it to a new location - AOL's website building software sucks! By moving it to a "real" host, i can update it offline and make lots of additions that AOL made too hard. I'm tucking it away in a back corner of my laptop support website, so the url might seem a little screwy. URL: http://www.orphanlaptops.com/id81.htm There will be a link to it from the old site soon too. Don Burns Chris, I'm in the process of moving it to a new location - AOL's website building software sucks! By moving it to a "real" host, i can update it offline and make lots of additions that AOL made too hard. I'm tucking it away in a back corner of my laptop support website, sothe url URL: http://www.orphanlaptops.com/id81.htm There will be a link to it from the old site soon too. Don Burns from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Thu Aug 30 14:17:56 2001 f7UJHtZ02594 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Stress Graphs and N rays Howdy Taylor -- The Orvis flex rating system is not a secret. Don Phillips describes itsomewhat in his Technology book on page 93. And Orvis themselves put theequation to calculate their flex index in their catalogs for a couple yearswhen they first came out with the concept (what five or six years ago?). Ican go back and see if I can find an old catalog. It was not all thatcomplicated, although I can't say that I discerned any theoretical logicbehind the equation..... Why do you feel that dampening rate is the most important descriptiveparameter of a rod blank in terms of casting characteristic? I have somevery slow and soft rods that damp immediately, and also some quite stiffrods that seem to never quit moving until you lay them down. Seems to methat the method described by Phillips on page 95, figure 10-4 would be themost useful toward numerically indexing rods by action. You ask below"wouldn't it be nice if prior to building a rod you could predict if Ipulled down on the tip with a certain force, what would the curve in the rodbe". This approach suggested by Milward would do precisely that. TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: Stress Graphs and N rays Barry et. al. I applaud you for coming out of the closet so to speak and say that theemperor has no clothes. It has always been my opinion that stress graphsalone can do little to predict the action of a rod. I make my case not onwhat I will call sloppy math, which it is, but for the lack of informationwhich is incorporated into the graph. At best it can determine the stress atgiven points along the rod. But this alone will not predict how the rodacts. Each piece of bamboo off the culm is different, the way we plane, theway temper must make some rather drastic changes in the stiffness of eachsection.I would prefer a model whereby we could determine prior to making the rod,how will the rod vibrate. If I hold one end of the rod still, and flex thetip end down a constant distance, then let go, how long will it take for therod to dampen to where the tip is virtually motionless. I suspect thisnumber predicts much more about the "action" of the rod than the stressgraph. At one time I thought it might be valuable for everyone to measuretheir tapers and make the above test. from all the rods made, surely wecould do some curve fitting to the enourmous amount data, to predict howfuture rods will act. If equal tapered rods have different frequencies, thenthere must be more to the equation than the taper.I know some great rods have been made using the stress graph approach,butthis alone does not validate the model. Guys this is voodoo, it is thearcanum of our hobby, It is what differentiates us from the graphite boys.Speaking of graphite boys, the Orvis guys for a long time have characterizedtheir rods by the degree which they flex. It has something to do with wherethe flex in the rod starts and by how much. They will not divulge theirformula for grading their rods, but wouldn't it be nice if prior to buildinga rod you could predict if I pulled down on the tip with a certain force,what would the curve in the rod be. That would mean more to me than astressgraph.Ok enough, off my engineering soap box. Taylor from caneman@clnk.com Thu Aug 30 14:30:51 2001 f7UJUoZ03328 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:56:01 -0500 Subject: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! I have to agree with Frank on this... Even though I hold Bob M. in thehighest esteem, I think the stress calculations are VERY useful. No, theydon't tell you what is going on in a rod during casting, but they are veryhelpful in rod design. Before I knew how to use a computer to do the work,I developed my own tapers... did I rely solely on Garrison's calculations?NO, but I did use them extensively.Now, here is where I'm going to upset a few. I know this is going tosound "uppity" from an old man, but once you have seen and stress graphedenough rods, you will see a corelation between rod action and the stressgraph. That corelation is NOT direct, BUT, it is very helpful indetermining how a rod will react in a casting or fishing situation. However,once you understand that a hump here, a dip there or flat spot somewhereelse in a stress graph relates to the "real life" reactions of the rodduring casting, then you begin to see how the stress graph relates to it'scasting characteristics. DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU HAVE TOBESMARTER TO SEE USE IN A STRESS GRAPH, ONLY THAT FOR "ME", IT IS EASIERTOPREDICT A RODS REAL LIFE CHARACTERISTICS USING THE STRESS GRAPH TOESTIMATETHE BENDING MOMENTS IN A ROD!I spent many a night and day, months on end, crunching numbers to get astress graph lined out for the tapers I now use. Wasn't easy and a lot ofrods ended up getting the ferrules and hardware pulled off of them andbecame fillers for the 40 gallon trash barrel can at the end of the bench.In other words, garrisons calculations are NOT absolute, and there isnothing in the world that you can punch in (in my opinion) and come out withthe perfect rod, but they are usable tool that allowed me to develop closeto 30 rod tapers without building 10 of each to see how they'd work in reallife... yep, there were times that I built 3 or 4 of a model before I got itright, but I felt like that was a pretty low number compared to what itwould have been if I hadn't had Garrisons formulae at my disposal. Oh, andthere were also times that the first rod build by manipulating a stressgraph came out exactly as I hoped it would... the first time!Conclusion, building an understanding of stress graphs is a great toolwhen trying to design rods, but it is not an absolute... additionalconclusion, You don't have to become smarter to understand stress graphs,just cast a lot of rods, graph them and in your mind build a corelationbetween the real life casting characteristics of the rod, and the shapes ofthe stress graphs. It took me years to build that corelation in my mind.Stress graphs are an absolute by any means, but still a very useful tool.Of course this is just my opinion, and, as Dennis Miller says, "I couldbe wrong". Later,Bob ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Rod Stress Grapghs Barry, Milward's _Analysis_ shows that, as you state, Garrison's stresscalculations do not represent what goes on in a rod during casting.I don't recall anyone objecting to this. I don't. He is correct.We went over this last month. Milward's _Broader Conclusion_ seem to be that Garrison's stresscalculations are therefore not useful in rod design. I happen todisagree with this. The Garrison stress numbers are real stresseswithin the rod. If the total stress is comprised of a static partand a dynamic (casting) part, the Garrison numbers are the static part.I think its valuable to know this one piece of the whole. To me that'sbetter than knowing no pieces. I think we are arguing over whether the Garrison stress numbersmeasure 0% or 5% or 10% of what is going on in the rod. Maybe weshould be discussing what the other 90+% looks like. Milward givesus some pictures and that is a place to start. Its interesting how Milward has gored a lot of our personal oxen.I hear the price of flamed rods are sinking like a clouser minnow :- )......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Frank - I did exactly what you suggest, and I agree with Milward thattheyare arbitrary and do not accurately estimate the actual stressesexperienced analysis except for variations on one of two themes - "Garrison isgreat" or"you'd understand if you were smart enough." Neither of theseapproachesanswers the question. Garrison is (was) great, some of us are plentysmartand experienced enough to understand Garrison's approach, and no onehasyettaken up the challenge. Barry from caneman@clnk.com Thu Aug 30 14:34:24 2001 f7UJYNZ03661 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: sanding fine tips Rex,I don't consistently have a problem with breaking tips with the plane,of course, when using the planing form, I keep at least three good sharpplanes ready at all times and if I feel one getting even the least bit dull,I switch planes.. now, in rodmaking, keep in mind that dull will still besharp enough to shave with, just not sharp enough to keep it from hanging upin the cane. I have tapers that go down to .048 finished dimension, sowe're talking about a strip that's planed to .024". One thing to note, wheni get down close, I tweek the plane so that I'm taking off shavings that youcould read a newspaper through... thinner is better at that point, and thesharp plane shouldn't break a tip strip when taking off less than athousandths of an inch.Back to your concern... nope, sanding isn't cheating. Any way you arecomfortable getting a strip to final specs is OK as far as I'm concerned.The only concern I would have is that it would seem that the sandpaper, evenon a sanding block, might "curl" a bit over the edges, not giving you a 100%contact surface between strips, therefore not giving you 100% of thepossible glue strength in the joint. On the other hand, most of the greatProduction makers of the past and present that used milling machinesundercut their cane slightly in order to eliminate any possibility of gluelines, so they weren't getting 100% , but those rods are holding up tofishing after decades of use, so this apparently doesn't present a problem.The only difference I could see between an intentional undercut andincidental miscut by sanding is that the undercut is consistent and that theouter edges of the strips do have good contact, whereas an accidental oversanding of the edges of the flats may cause a very slight glue line.... butthen again, maybe it won't! I guess if you're sanding all the way down toyour forms, then the flat would truly come out flat. Only way that shouldbe a concern, now that I think of it, is if you were stopping a thousandthsor so above the forms... I used to do that early on with the grooved planes,but it was too much trouble... everything goes all the way down to the formsthese days. Or the mill anvil, depending on how my arthritis is doing on aparticular day.As far as the sanding blocks, I NOW use one that I got from Bret Reiter,and even though it is simple, it is a DANDY and is the perfect size for arodmaker. Large enough to do major resanding, yet small enough that youcancorner it to the cane and see what your taking off as you use it. I don'tknow if Bret's still providing these, but if he is, they're well worthhaving. Mine has two main uses... 1. pesky nodes... I'd rather sand apesky node than scrape it. 2. finish fitting of strips... when I get allthe strips planed, I tape them together and check the strip to strip fit allthe way down the section. I mark any places that look like potentialproblems (ie, gluelines) and lightly sand with 600 grit to a good fit. Thisusually involves only taking a half a thousandths or so off of a flat over a1/4" or so area, so this little sanding block is perfect for that.Got a little carried away with the answer... I have a tendancy to dothat, sometimes... well, OK all the time!!!! In any case, not cheating...do what you feel comfortable with and enjoy the rods. Later,Bob I have tried and tried to plane down to .035 with alot of breakage.I decided to try sanding after I plane down to around .045. Thetaper seems more consistent and there is no scaring of the cane, thatis there are no visible lines because I am using 150 grit. I havemore control of the actual size and the pressure is light so I don'tbreak it. I don't see this solution in my books. I may have missedit. I do have a scraper but it is a plane that breaks these tinytips, too . I do alot better with the larger tapers. I am building athree section and have never had to go so small. Do some of you moreexperienced guys see a problem with sanding instead of planing ? Isit cheating ?(LOL) I know someone sells sanding blocks but how arethey used ? What grit ? Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Aug 30 15:19:59 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f7UKJwZ07489 (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Rod Stress Grapghs Frank - As often happens when "cheerful comrades" disagree I think we areansweringdifferent questions. I was talking mainly about the usefulness of stresscurves vs taper charts in understanding and predicting the nature of a rod.Sorry if my enthusiasm blurred that. Granting that the Garrison approachgives good info on static stress, there are still a lot of us who look atstress curves and wonder how they relate to real-world rod behavior. That'swhere I think some of us (generally those with more experience, unlike me)have gotten used to the stress curves, while others remain confused. I'msimply arguing that for all practical purposes the taper graphs are just asgood or better as a way to understand how a given taper will behave - notthat either method addresses all the important factors. But I still wonder some times what the "experts" see in stress curves thatI'm missing (in terms of the question I'm trying to answer), and unless I'vemissed it I still haven't heard anyone address that in a way that respondsto Milward's critique. Tight lines and wiggly curves - Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Rod Stress Grapghs Barry, Milward's _Analysis_ shows that, as you state, Garrison's stress calculations do not represent what goes on in a rod during casting. I don't recall anyone objecting to this. I don't. He is correct.We went over this last month. Milward's _Broader Conclusion_ seem to be that Garrison's stresscalculations are therefore not useful in rod design. I happen to disagree with this. The Garrison stress numbers are real stresses within the rod. If the total stress is comprised of a static part and a dynamic (casting) part, the Garrison numbers are the static part. I think its valuable to know this one piece of the whole. To me that's better than knowing no pieces. I think we are arguing over whether the Garrison stress numbersmeasure 0% or 5% or 10% of what is going on in the rod. Maybe we should be discussing what the other 90+% looks like. Milward gives us some pictures and that is a place to start. Its interesting how Milward has gored a lot of our personal oxen. I hear the price of flamed rods are sinking like a clouser minnow :- )......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Frank - I did exactly what you suggest, and I agree with Milward that theyare arbitrary and do not accurately estimate the actual stressesexperienced analysis except for variations on one of two themes - "Garrison is great"or"you'd understand if you were smart enough." Neither of these approachesanswers the question. Garrison is (was) great, some of us are plentysmartand experienced enough to understand Garrison's approach, and no one hasyettaken up the challenge. Barry from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Aug 30 15:20:02 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f7UKK1Z07514 (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! Bob - If you've used stress curves enough that you now intuitively grasp theconnection between the curves and the real rods, I have no quarrel with that(as I said earlier). But as you point out it takes a lot of experience. Ifit produces a deeper level of understanding, it's worth the trouble. But Ican't see that it does, and I'm not alone. A lot of people don't see theconnection. I'm trying to get someone to tell me just what they get fromstress curves that taper graphs can't show. I don't want to reduce everything to science, but the stress curves ARE amathematical model, so it's not unreasonable to expect an understandableexplanation of their value compared to a simpler mathematical model, whichis what a taper graph is. Those who answer by saying in effect "you can'ttake the mystery out of craftsmanship" are in a funny position when themystery they're cherishing consists of differential calculus, even if it is50 years old. And any explanation that cannot get around the Milwardanalysis won't cut it. The List will be happy to hear that I'll shut up about this soon, I justwanted to see if the Milward analysis might stimulate someone to articulatesomething I may be missing in the Garrison approach. I have only good willtoward those who get good results from Hexrod, whether or not I'meventuallyable to understand it. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! I have to agree with Frank on this... Even though I hold Bob M. in thehighest esteem, I think the stress calculations are VERY useful. No, theydon't tell you what is going on in a rod during casting, but they are veryhelpful in rod design. Before I knew how to use a computer to do the work,I developed my own tapers... did I rely solely on Garrison's calculations?NO, but I did use them extensively.Now, here is where I'm going to upset a few. I know this is going tosound "uppity" from an old man, but once you have seen and stress graphedenough rods, you will see a corelation between rod action and the stressgraph. That corelation is NOT direct, BUT, it is very helpful indetermining how a rod will react in a casting or fishing situation. However,once you understand that a hump here, a dip there or flat spot somewhereelse in a stress graph relates to the "real life" reactions of the rodduring casting, then you begin to see how the stress graph relates to it'scasting characteristics. DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU HAVE TOBESMARTER TO SEE USE IN A STRESS GRAPH, ONLY THAT FOR "ME", IT IS EASIERTOPREDICT A RODS REAL LIFE CHARACTERISTICS USING THE STRESS GRAPH TOESTIMATETHE BENDING MOMENTS IN A ROD!I spent many a night and day, months on end, crunching numbers to get astress graph lined out for the tapers I now use. Wasn't easy and a lot ofrods ended up getting the ferrules and hardware pulled off of them andbecame fillers for the 40 gallon trash barrel can at the end of the bench.In other words, garrisons calculations are NOT absolute, and there isnothing in the world that you can punch in (in my opinion) and come out withthe perfect rod, but they are usable tool that allowed me to develop closeto 30 rod tapers without building 10 of each to see how they'd work in reallife... yep, there were times that I built 3 or 4 of a model before I got itright, but I felt like that was a pretty low number compared to what itwould have been if I hadn't had Garrisons formulae at my disposal. Oh, andthere were also times that the first rod build by manipulating a stressgraph came out exactly as I hoped it would... the first time!Conclusion, building an understanding of stress graphs is a great toolwhen trying to design rods, but it is not an absolute... additionalconclusion, You don't have to become smarter to understand stress graphs,just cast a lot of rods, graph them and in your mind build a corelationbetween the real life casting characteristics of the rod, and the shapes ofthe stress graphs. It took me years to build that corelation in my mind.Stress graphs are an absolute by any means, but still a very useful tool.Of course this is just my opinion, and, as Dennis Miller says, "I couldbe wrong". Later,Bob ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Rod Stress Grapghs Barry, Milward's _Analysis_ shows that, as you state, Garrison's stresscalculations do not represent what goes on in a rod during casting.I don't recall anyone objecting to this. I don't. He is correct.We went over this last month. Milward's _Broader Conclusion_ seem to be that Garrison's stresscalculations are therefore not useful in rod design. I happen todisagree with this. The Garrison stress numbers are real stresseswithin the rod. If the total stress is comprised of a static partand a dynamic (casting) part, the Garrison numbers are the static part.I think its valuable to know this one piece of the whole. To me that'sbetter than knowing no pieces. I think we are arguing over whether the Garrison stress numbersmeasure 0% or 5% or 10% of what is going on in the rod. Maybe weshould be discussing what the other 90+% looks like. Milward givesus some pictures and that is a place to start. Its interesting how Milward has gored a lot of our personal oxen.I hear the price of flamed rods are sinking like a clouser minnow :- )......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Frank - I did exactly what you suggest, and I agree with Milward thattheyare arbitrary and do not accurately estimate the actual stressesexperienced analysis except for variations on one of two themes - "Garrison isgreat" or"you'd understand if you were smart enough." Neither of theseapproachesanswers the question. Garrison is (was) great, some of us are plentysmartand experienced enough to understand Garrison's approach, and no onehasyettaken up the challenge. Barry from bob@downandacross.com Thu Aug 30 15:27:50 2001 f7UKRnZ09767 Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! Thank you Bob, I must say that from casting your rods at Grayrock you knowyour stuff. You are one of the guys I look to for the right answers.I guess that stress curves seem strange(maybe redundant is a better word)tome for two reasons. 1. I don't try to capture the feel of a 6'3" Midge intoa 7'6" rod or make changes in length. I could see how using stresses wouldmake sense here. You could capture and compare different sized rods. 2. Idon't see why if the diameter determines the stress at any given point, whydoes the stress value matter? I think in terms of rise as Don Andersondescribed in his post. I think in terms of oncrease over each 5 inchstation. I guess that if I knew what the stress numbers meant, I would usethem more. As Jerry said, Waynes talk at Grayrock was awesome, and Iunderstand general rod character based on the curves.I guess my sticking point is, I can see .001 if I hold my calipers to thelight. And although I cannot believe how small it is, I know that it isreal. When I look at the stress numbers, they hurt my head. The curves arenot a problem. If I tried to figure out Garrison's math with a calculatorand paper, I would lose the rest of my hair. God bless you math guys. I lovemath, but I am not good at thinking in that way. I remember during HighSchool trigonometry thinking, "I have no idea how to get that answer, but Iknow how to figure out this one? How are they similar?" In related talk, I met Tom Ausfield today for the first time and cast his7'6" "Classic Taper" rod. He uses stress curves and designed this rod with afantastic pleasing feel. I liked it a lot. BUT, we also talked about how theold timers (Not you Bob) thought in terms of 64s. Best regards, Bob Maulucci -----Original Message----- Subject: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! I have to agree with Frank on this... Even though I hold Bob M. in thehighest esteem, I think the stress calculations are VERY useful. No, theydon't tell you what is going on in a rod during casting, but they are veryhelpful in rod design. Before I knew how to use a computer to do the work,I developed my own tapers... did I rely solely on Garrison's calculations?NO, but I did use them extensively.Now, here is where I'm going to upset a few. I know this is going tosound "uppity" from an old man, but once you have seen and stress graphedenough rods, you will see a corelation between rod action and the stressgraph. That corelation is NOT direct, BUT, it is very helpful indetermining how a rod will react in a casting or fishing situation. However,once you understand that a hump here, a dip there or flat spot somewhereelse in a stress graph relates to the "real life" reactions of the rodduring casting, then you begin to see how the stress graph relates to it'scasting characteristics. DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU HAVE TOBESMARTER TO SEE USE IN A STRESS GRAPH, ONLY THAT FOR "ME", IT IS EASIERTOPREDICT A RODS REAL LIFE CHARACTERISTICS USING THE STRESS GRAPH TOESTIMATETHE BENDING MOMENTS IN A ROD!I spent many a night and day, months on end, crunching numbers to get astress graph lined out for the tapers I now use. Wasn't easy and a lot ofrods ended up getting the ferrules and hardware pulled off of them andbecame fillers for the 40 gallon trash barrel can at the end of the bench.In other words, garrisons calculations are NOT absolute, and there isnothing in the world that you can punch in (in my opinion) and come out withthe perfect rod, but they are usable tool that allowed me to develop closeto 30 rod tapers without building 10 of each to see how they'd work in reallife... yep, there were times that I built 3 or 4 of a model before I got itright, but I felt like that was a pretty low number compared to what itwould have been if I hadn't had Garrisons formulae at my disposal. Oh, andthere were also times that the first rod build by manipulating a stressgraph came out exactly as I hoped it would... the first time!Conclusion, building an understanding of stress graphs is a great toolwhen trying to design rods, but it is not an absolute... additionalconclusion, You don't have to become smarter to understand stress graphs,just cast a lot of rods, graph them and in your mind build a corelationbetween the real life casting characteristics of the rod, and the shapes ofthe stress graphs. It took me years to build that corelation in my mind.Stress graphs are an absolute by any means, but still a very useful tool.Of course this is just my opinion, and, as Dennis Miller says, "I couldbe wrong". Later,Bob ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Rod Stress Grapghs Barry, Milward's _Analysis_ shows that, as you state, Garrison's stresscalculations do not represent what goes on in a rod during casting.I don't recall anyone objecting to this. I don't. He is correct.We went over this last month. Milward's _Broader Conclusion_ seem to be that Garrison's stresscalculations are therefore not useful in rod design. I happen todisagree with this. The Garrison stress numbers are real stresseswithin the rod. If the total stress is comprised of a static partand a dynamic (casting) part, the Garrison numbers are the static part.I think its valuable to know this one piece of the whole. To me that'sbetter than knowing no pieces. I think we are arguing over whether the Garrison stress numbersmeasure 0% or 5% or 10% of what is going on in the rod. Maybe weshould be discussing what the other 90+% looks like. Milward givesus some pictures and that is a place to start. Its interesting how Milward has gored a lot of our personal oxen.I hear the price of flamed rods are sinking like a clouser minnow :- )......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Frank - I did exactly what you suggest, and I agree with Milward thattheyare arbitrary and do not accurately estimate the actual stressesexperienced analysis except for variations on one of two themes - "Garrison isgreat" or"you'd understand if you were smart enough." Neither of theseapproachesanswers the question. Garrison is (was) great, some of us are plentysmartand experienced enough to understand Garrison's approach, and no onehasyettaken up the challenge. Barry from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Aug 30 15:31:35 2001 f7UKVYZ10528 Subject: Re: Rod Stress Grapghs Hi to all,I can still remember the pain of going through the complete long handcalculations of thickness calculations on the first couple of rods I builtsome 23 years ago. Each required 23 pages of hand calculations. I do believethe procedure is valid and uses good engineering principles. I felt thatwhat I was sure of when finished was that the rod would not be overstressed. What is also obvious is that there are many extenuatingcircumstances that must also be taken into account such as anomalies in thematerial, reduction of strength by removing power fibers, high stress pointsat the ferrule shoulders depending on how it's done, over- stressing duringstraightening and node pressing, static conditions vs dynamic conditions andthe like. In the prediction of rod action I believe it's much easier to lookat a plot of thickness vs. position along the rod. It really shows up whencomparing a typical Paul Young taper with others.Ray Gould---- - Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Rod Stress Grapghs I feel a little like Terry Ackland saying this, but... Anyone who wants to understand what stress curves say, should start and maybe an introductory engineering book as a reference. Thinkcarefully about the stress components as you calculate them. curve and which are ignored. Then you can decide for yourselfwhether stress curves are useful or not, in building flyrods. Computers make it too easy to go click-click-click and get some numbersand believe they are the whole truth. They are not. But neither arethey meaningless.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Thu Aug 30 16:08:15 2001 f7UL8EZ16519 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) Rod Makers List Serve Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! Y'all know that I am not an expert on the design or construction of canerods (yet). I say that up front. But as I have discussed with Bob N.before, sometimes a simple analogy goes a long way. Let's talk about cars.Fast cars. Let's say that it is easy to measure the cubic inches of enginedisplacement, and it becomes convention to judge about how fast a car"should" be based on this number. People become accustomed to this, andtheracing world is a happy place. But then some innovative people starttweaking their engines, and they end up with faster cars than thoseuntweaked ones with the same displacement. So no longer is a simplecomparison possible based on displacement. Years go by, and William Dyno realizes that there is a way to measure theactual power output from a given engine, irrespective of displacement. Andthis number is truly a better predictor of how fast the car might be, thanjust using simple engine displacement. Now the guys who have been usingdisplacement all these years don't like Bill or his dynamometer machinemuch, as his method isn't comfortable to them. So they continue talkingdisplacement, even though horsepower tells more of the story. They use theargument that there are too many other variables that can't be considered --like transmission/differential gearing, and weight distribution of thevehicle, and how well the suspension keeps the tires in contact with theasphalt -- to bother using horsepower as an indicator. They stay withdisplacement. That's where we are. We use a simple indicator that requires much more"considering" than another more representative parameter available to us.It'd be great if we had a dynamometer that could measure the brake HP ofourrods, but we don't. Doesn't mean that we should ignore the benefit ofGarrison's math, just because it may be incomplete or not totally"accurate". And I can't say that I fully agree with the equations as theystand. They seem better than the alternative, and casting Bob's rods makesme a believer in his methods. Respectfully -- TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! Bob - If you've used stress curves enough that you now intuitively grasp theconnection between the curves and the real rods, I have no quarrel with that(as I said earlier). But as you point out it takes a lot of experience. Ifit produces a deeper level of understanding, it's worth the trouble. But Ican't see that it does, and I'm not alone. A lot of people don't see theconnection. I'm trying to get someone to tell me just what they get fromstress curves that taper graphs can't show. I don't want to reduce everything to science, but the stress curves ARE amathematical model, so it's not unreasonable to expect an understandableexplanation of their value compared to a simpler mathematical model, whichis what a taper graph is. Those who answer by saying in effect "you can'ttake the mystery out of craftsmanship" are in a funny position when themystery they're cherishing consists of differential calculus, even if it is50 years old. And any explanation that cannot get around the Milwardanalysis won't cut it. The List will be happy to hear that I'll shut up about this soon, I justwanted to see if the Milward analysis might stimulate someone to articulatesomething I may be missing in the Garrison approach. I have only good willtoward those who get good results from Hexrod, whether or not I'meventuallyable to understand it. Barry from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Aug 30 16:31:23 2001 f7ULVMZ17622 QAA10687 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! What Garrison stress curves tell us, that dimension curves cannot,is the effect of a change at one point in a rod (eg beefing upor reducing a section, adding or removing a ferrule etc) onanother point. The stress at point A depends not just juston the dimension of the rod at A but on the weight of everything from A on to the tip, and its distance from A. Its like "The12 Days of Christmas" song. You get that day plus everything thatcomes before it. I'd be interested in knowing if plastic rod makers have more advanced engineering models, that capture the dynamic part of casting with the rod loading and unloading. These models couldbe used for good as well asevil.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Kling, Barry W. wrote, among other things: I don't want to reduce everything to science, but the stress curves ARE amathematical model, so it's not unreasonable to expect an understandableexplanation of their value compared to a simpler mathematical model,whichis what a taper graph is. from bamboorods@saber.net Thu Aug 30 18:02:45 2001 f7UN2iZ21161 Subject: Pearsalls Gossamer Silk for Sale This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Please contact me off list: 120 spools of Java Brown 120 Spools of =Salmon (Royal Hunt) Bargain pricing.Apologies for the crass commercialism.Chris = pricing. commercialism.Chris from dnorl@qwest.net Thu Aug 30 18:07:28 2001 f7UN7RZ21502 0000 (63.228.47.207) Subject: Bret Reiter This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Bret,Are You still making sanding blocks?Dave Norling Bret, blocks?Dave =Norling from goodaple@tcac.net Thu Aug 30 18:10:50 2001 f7UNAnZ21770 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 licensedd72657b95c070b1853187e4f5a0d6a7) Subject: Southern Gathering and a question. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Harry, Are you out there...........? Do you have alist of the attendees =of the gathering that you could send me? I was just wondering about who =will be attending. NOW the question. Could someone post a compiled list =of maker vs typical node pattern they used? I was working on a new rod =just now and realized I don't have or know the answer to this question =and it would be nice to have as a reference. Thanks in advance. = Harry, Are you out there...........? Do = alist of the attendees of the gathering that you could send me? I was = post a compiled list of maker vs typical node pattern they used? I was = on a new rod just now and realized I don't have or know the answer to = from rextutor@about.com Thu Aug 30 18:15:20 2001 f7UNFJZ22070 (NPlex 5.5.029) 2001 16:07:57 -0700 Subject: Re: Bret Reiter DitoSign up fora free About Email account at http://About.com from MasjC1@aol.com Thu Aug 30 18:38:39 2001 f7UNccZ22976 (25714); Subject: Re: need help with spar varnish I've used this varnish on the last four rods with no problems. It usually is dry to the touch in less than 24 hours. Perhaps the problem is in an incompatibility between the tung oil and the varnish. Have you tried it without the tung oil? Dip a strip and see what happens. Mark Cole I've used this varnish on thelast four rods with no problems. It usually is dry to the touch in less than 24 hours. Perhaps the problem is in an incompatibility between the tung oil and the varnish. Have you tried it without the tung oil? Dip a strip and see what happens. Mark Cole from bob@downandacross.com Thu Aug 30 18:46:52 2001 f7UNkpZ23383 Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs--I looked again Okay, here's pie in my face. I realize that when I made my argument againststress curves I did not come off as clearly as I intended. I realize thatthe difference between stress graphs and dimensional data is that thestressgraphs take into account the "meat" of the rod at the given length fromwhere the load is. Thus .060 and .120 dimensions are only relevant to eachother in their relation to the tip. How far away are they might be found from the tip is what is important in a stress graph, not the fact that .120is twice as big. It's just that if I was trying to design a rod fromstresses, I would have to start with a known rod. Since I would not knowwhat to put in for stress values, I would be guessing. BUT, if I wanted totweak a quad I have been working on, I may just try to take off a littlehere and add a little there.I think that the online Hexrod (and of course the original) is great to login rods, and look at the graphs. But for designing a rod, I like the inputfactors that the Bokstrom program uses, and I like Claude's spreadsheet forconverting rods from 4 to 6 to 5, etc....Personally, I would like to learn more about straight tapers, such as theone's Mr. Woolman builds.Your empirical servant,Bob M. from oakmere@carol.net Thu Aug 30 18:59:30 2001 f7UNxTZ23948 [216.215.133.167] (may be forged)) f7UNxMG26824 Subject: RE: Whatever and GreyFox Hi Tim and others: First the name is Frank Paul - not Mr. Frank. There are Pauls and there areFranks but this one is Frank Paul. First I believe that Alan Liu who iswell known in the bamboo business goes by Grey Fox. That is different thanGreyFox. I suggest that this is kept straight. Anyway, there is no ego problem at this end that got damaged, only that Idid not want associated with the quality rod issue that was beingdiscussed. Thanks to all the guys who came to my defense. Best, Frank Frank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work); 864-656-7471oakmere@carol.net (home); 864-882-0077 from dpeaston@wzrd.com Thu Aug 30 19:43:35 2001 f7V0hYZ25666 Subject: Re: need help with spar varnish Yes, I think I have seen this with Poly as well. Some "antique oils" canretard the drying of the varnish, particularly if they are notcompleteley dry themselves. Thinners with higher boiling hydrocarbonslike kerosineare used to redard the drying of oil based finishes. -Doug At 07:38 PM 8/30/01 EDT, MasjC1@aol.com wrote: Tahomaffff,8080,0000I'veused this varnish on the last four rods with no problems. It usually is dry to the touch in less than 24 hours. Perhaps the problem is in an incompatibility between the tung oil and the varnish. Have you tried it without the tung oil? Dip a strip and see what happens. MarkColearial arial from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 19:55:21 2001 f7V0tKZ26280 30 Aug 2001 17:55:18 PDT Subject: Re: need help with spar varnish I'm familiar with the film cannister method. IMHO,Okin a pinch but handrubbed or brushed actually willyield better results, takes longer though. Problem is,everybody's in a rush. Few questions, did you warm upthe varnish first and did you change the varnishbetween sections, being sure that the fresh stuff came from the heated pot? The problem with the filmcannister method usually shows itself in the fact thatthe coat will go on a little thicker than with dippingunless you thin it. Better to do it more than oncewith each coat coming out fine than to have anunsatisfactory coat that either live with if its yourown rod or strip and put twice as much work into ifits for someone else. Just my 2 cents worth. Bill Walters--- Kengorific@aol.com wrote:I used Helmsman spar urethane on my first two rodswith good results. Now I decided to try a true spar varnish on my currentproject and am having problems. I used McCoskey Marine Spar Varnish (#7509 Gloss)straight from the can, I used the 'film canister' dip method on blanks thatwere pre- finished with one coat of tung oil during construction. The labelsays it will dry to touch in 6 hours, 24 hours for a light sanding between coats.I let the blanks dry overnight, the first problem I noticed were somedrips and wrinkles in the finish. The finishe after 24 hrs was way to soft(still tacky) for sanding. Now after 5 days of drying I find that they stillgum up a 500 grit wet/dry paper. HELP! What did I do wrong? And what is thebest way to procede from here? Questions for the more experienced... 1) How long should it take for true spar to drybetween sandings?2) Would thinning the varnish with mineral spiritseliminate the drips and wrinkles?3) Would heating the finish help?4) Should I be wet sanding between coats?5) Can I fix this finish or should I just strip itwith citrus solvewnt and start over, maybe go back to the urethane?6) I would prefere a semi-gloss or matte finish,can I add something to the spar varnish to change the finish gloss? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!Messengerhttp://im.yahoo.com from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Aug 30 19:58:53 2001 f7V0wmZ26591 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:55:32 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: FYI - Chinese Paynes Claude,tsk, tsk tsk!!! Wasting good beer like that. That's border line alcoholabuse!;^)Seriously though, when I was younger (and rowdier??) I saw a close friendofmine, standing minding his own business, get sucker-punched by a guy at aparty. Myfriend fell down, proceeded to get up and pound the living crap out of the guythentake a nice long swig of his beer.... all without spilling a single drop of thegolden grail!! Almost wanted to drop to the ground and proclaim that "I wasn'tworthy!"Here'sto the beer! Shawn Claude Freaner wrote: Water maybe, but not much else, Pete. I set down a glass of goodmicrobrew next to my iMac keyboard one evening, but failed to noticeI set it on a pencil. When I let go of the glass, it dumped about 6ounces of beer onto the keyboard. I immediately hit the surgeprotector power switch, unplugged the keyboard, and took it into thebathroom where I thoroughly rinsed it in clean water. Then used thehairdryer on "air only" setting (no heat) to dry it out. After itwas dry, I gave it an additional 24 hours of drying time, thenplugged it back in. Deader than a door nail... Fortunately, CompUSAwas only 4 miles away. Claude At 7:48 AM -0400 on 8/30/01, Peter Van Schaack wrote about RE: FYI - Chinese Paynes SNOT and Coffee won't hurt the keyboard, but the "sugar cane" will do itin. If it's not that bad water and a hair dryer - If it's an Apple keyboard theybrag that you can submerge them in water. Pete -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 3:32 AM Subject: Re: FYI - Chinese Paynes You wrote: You went to China hunting for a Greyfox only to find the hunting wasbad so you bought a Payne rod that was made by a chinese man andit was the best looking rod east of the Henry Fork. Well I'm glad SOMEBODY actually read my post and understood what thehell Iwas trying to say! Adam - I wish I hadn't been taking a sip of hot coffee as I read your reply.Milk's one thing, but hot coffee isn't something you want squirting outyournose while laughing. (anyone know how to clean snot and coffee from a keyboard?)---Tim from rmoon@ida.net Thu Aug 30 20:10:40 2001 f7V1AdZ27374 0000 Subject: Re: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! Thanks BobI have been trying to figure out how to say it, and you beat me to it.I think that the correlation between the stress curve and the rod actionis simply experience. I think it also helps if you look at it with the Ralph from Mark_Dyba@hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 21:02:44 2001 f7V22hZ29474 Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:02:39 -0700 Subject: hooks FILETIME=[03429970:01C131C1] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi all,I just returned from my annual fishing trip to the Yellowstone park =area. Fishing was good but the water conditions, due to the drought, =were bad.My question to all is this, is anyone else having trouble with =Tiemco hooks? I hooked 3 good fish and lost everyone of them using =Tiemco. I sharpened the hooks but no change in results. I then went back =to my old Mustads and didn't loose another fish.Mark Hi all,I just returned from my annual fishing = Yellowstone park area. Fishing was good but the water conditions, due to = drought, were bad.My question to all is this, is anyone else having = Tiemco hooks? I hooked 3 good fish and lost everyone of them using = sharpened the hooks but no change in results. I then went back to my old = Mark from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Thu Aug 30 21:25:22 2001 f7V2PLZ00639 Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:25:16 -0700 claiming to be "oemcomputer" 2001 Subject: Re: need help with spar varnish Questions for the more experienced... 1) How long should it take for true spar to dry between sandings?I wait a week, I probabl;y don't have to wait that long, but I do out ofsuperstition. 2) Would thinning the varnish with mineral spirits eliminate the dripsandwrinkles?Don't know, intuitively I'd say yes, speed is also a factor. I thin mine10% (i use man-o-war). If its thick, I would just go slower on thewithdrawl. I think my withdrawl rate is about 4" per minute. 3) Would heating the finish help?i would not go this route. If you have any small pockets in your glue joint,the air will heat up and expand and give you a bubble. 4) Should I be wet sanding between coats?I one coat, wet sand with 2000 grit paper glued to popsicle sticks; Thenpolish. Your goal is for 0.004" of total thickness, if you can get thatwith one dip then why do more. Some dip, sand it all off leaving varinishin the small holes as filler then re-dip. Seems too much work for me. Anymore finish is over kill. 5) Can I fix this finish or should I just strip it with citrus solvewntandstart over, maybe go back to the urethane?If you had good luck with poly, you shouldn't have changed. If it works foryou there is no reason you should change. Even if one of us "experts" tellsyou to. 6) I would prefere a semi-gloss or matte finish, can I add something tothespar varnish to change the finish gloss?Got me... You've reached my level of incompetence... Since you had goodluck with Helmsman, use their satin or semi. Good luck, hope this helps...tom from Troutgetter@aol.com Thu Aug 30 22:12:11 2001 f7V3CAZ02811 (17084); Subject: Re: need help with spar varnish Ken(gorific) This has been booted around a few times.I had a problem similar to yours and I found at the time, the the fix was easy. I have always dipped in man 'o war wwith good results. When I built a new tube and filled it with new varnish, I had exactly your problem! It seems that the good ole USA has mandated that McKloskeys along withothers change their formulation to conform to "clean air standards". The "old" formulatations of 'o war (sorry to all who remember pre '73 or so) has more volatile materials than the current formulation. I dumped the 'new' brand and found a couple of quarts of the old type replace the old, and after sanding all the old stuff off the blanks, re-dipped and all came out fine! So if you can't find any of the last formulation (look for the can with the checkered side panels as opposed to the can with the solid red label) there are additives that can be added to the new varnish. In a pinch, just add a GOOD grade of thinner. Do Burns told me of a product that others areadding. (unfortunately, I can't remember the name! Don! help me here!) All in all, you need more thinners (volitiles) I really hope this helps, it fixed my problems. Mike Shay Ken(gorific) This has been booted around a few times.I had a problem similar to yours and I found at the time, the the fix was easy. I have always dipped in man 'o war wwith good results. When I built a new tube and filled it with new varnish, I had exactly your problem! It seems that the good ole USA has mandated that McKloskeys alongwith others change their formulation to conform to "clean air standards". The "old" formulatations of 'o war (sorry to all who remember pre '73 or so) hasmore volatile materials than the current formulation. I dumped the 'new' brand and found a couple of quarts of the old typereplace the old, and after sanding all the old stuff off the blanks, re-dipped and all came out fine! So if you can't find any of the last formulation (look for the can withthe label) there are additives that can be added to the new varnish. In a pinch, just adda others are adding. (unfortunately, I can't remember the name! Don! help me here!) All in all, you need more thinners (volitiles) I really hope this helps, it fixed my problems. Mike Shay from Pfdad@aol.com Thu Aug 30 22:39:52 2001 f7V3dpZ04129 Subject: Steam bending Hello List:Has anyone tried steam bending of the node areas; it should temporarily soften the fibers. A steaming jig could be something as simple as a kettle on the stove or a more specialized thing such as propane fired fish cook pot, etc. It would require a small fixture to keep the piece straight whilst cooling. Phil FentressMemphis TN Hello List: temporarily a kettle on the stove or a more specialized thing such as propane fired fish cookpot, whilst cooling. Phil FentressMemphis TN from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Thu Aug 30 22:42:37 2001 f7V3gaZ04403 claiming to be "oemcomputer" 2001 Subject: Re: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! All,Here is my suggestion to newbies wanting to unlock the secret of stessgraphs and the like. Build a couple of rods with known tapers (fromarchives), say all 5 wts, all same length, preferebly dractisally differentactions. Graph their stresses, put on a line and cast them all and makea correlation with whats on paper to what you are feeling. Then it maycome to you. It worked for me. I came up with decent tapers this way, I'msure they have been done before, but its nice to know I came up with it. regardstom ----- Original Message -----From: Bob Nunley Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 3:28 PMSubject: Rod Stress Graphs-- Discertation length reply!!!! I have to agree with Frank on this... Even though I hold Bob M. in thehighest esteem, I think the stress calculations are VERY useful. No,theydon't tell you what is going on in a rod during casting, but they areveryhelpful in rod design. Before I knew how to use a computer to do thework,I developed my own tapers... did I rely solely on Garrison'scalculations?NO, but I did use them extensively.Now, here is where I'm going to upset a few. I know this is goingtosound "uppity" from an old man, but once you have seen and stressgraphedenough rods, you will see a corelation between rod action and the stressgraph. That corelation is NOT direct, BUT, it is very helpful indetermining how a rod will react in a casting or fishing situation.However,once you understand that a hump here, a dip there or flat spotsomewhereelse in a stress graph relates to the "real life" reactions of the rodduring casting, then you begin to see how the stress graph relates toit'scasting characteristics. DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU HAVETOBESMARTER TO SEE USE IN A STRESS GRAPH, ONLY THAT FOR "ME", IT ISEASIERTOPREDICT A RODS REAL LIFE CHARACTERISTICS USING THE STRESS GRAPHTOESTIMATETHE BENDING MOMENTS IN A ROD!I spent many a night and day, months on end, crunching numbers togetastress graph lined out for the tapers I now use. Wasn't easy and a lotofrods ended up getting the ferrules and hardware pulled off of them andbecame fillers for the 40 gallon trash barrel can at the end of thebench.In other words, garrisons calculations are NOT absolute, and there isnothing in the world that you can punch in (in my opinion) and come outwiththe perfect rod, but they are usable tool that allowed me to developcloseto 30 rod tapers without building 10 of each to see how they'd work inreallife... yep, there were times that I built 3 or 4 of a model before Igotitright, but I felt like that was a pretty low number compared to what itwould have been if I hadn't had Garrisons formulae at my disposal. Oh,andthere were also times that the first rod build by manipulating a stressgraph came out exactly as I hoped it would... the first time!Conclusion, building an understanding of stress graphs is a greattoolwhen trying to design rods, but it is not an absolute... additionalconclusion, You don't have to become smarter to understand stressgraphs,just cast a lot of rods, graph them and in your mind build a corelationbetween the real life casting characteristics of the rod, and the shapesofthe stress graphs. It took me years to build that corelation in mymind.Stress graphs are an absolute by any means, but still a very usefultool.Of course this is just my opinion, and, as Dennis Miller says, "Icouldbe wrong". Later,Bob ----- Original Message -----From: "Frank Stetzer" Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 12:38 PMSubject: RE: Rod Stress Grapghs Barry, Milward's _Analysis_ shows that, as you state, Garrison's stresscalculations do not represent what goes on in a rod during casting.I don't recall anyone objecting to this. I don't. He is correct.We went over this last month. Milward's _Broader Conclusion_ seem to be that Garrison's stresscalculations are therefore not useful in rod design. I happen todisagree with this. The Garrison stress numbers are real stresseswithin the rod. If the total stress is comprised of a static partand a dynamic (casting) part, the Garrison numbers are the staticpart.I think its valuable to know this one piece of the whole. To me that'sbetter than knowing no pieces. I think we are arguing over whether the Garrison stress numbersmeasure 0% or 5% or 10% of what is going on in the rod. Maybe weshould be discussing what the other 90+% looks like. Milward givesus some pictures and that is a place to start. Its interesting how Milward has gored a lot of our personal oxen.I hear the price of flamed rods are sinking like a clouser minnow :- )......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Frank - I did exactly what you suggest, and I agree with Milwardthattheyare arbitrary and do not accurately estimate the actual stressesexperienced analysis except for variations on one of two themes - "Garrison isgreat" or"you'd understand if you were smart enough." Neither of theseapproachesanswers the question. Garrison is (was) great, some of us are plentysmartand experienced enough to understand Garrison's approach, and noonehasyettaken up the challenge. Barry from Pfdad@aol.com Thu Aug 30 22:46:38 2001 f7V3kbZ04743 Subject: Checking the filed groove Hello List:There is a technique used by moldmakers of plastic injection molds and die= blocks to determine cavity shape as their work progresses. They keep asmal= amount of modeling clay handy which they press into the cavity and thenpull= check the evenness of 60=B0 groove filing as it progresses. You would beab= to check a few inches at a time to see that the groove bottoms are evenfrom= not dry out. Phil FentressMemphis TN Hello List: mold= ke= amount of modeling clay handy which they press into the cavity and us= wo= to check a few inches at a time to see that the groove bottoms are not dry out. Phil FentressMemphis TN from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Aug 30 23:53:21 2001 f7V4rJZ07708 Subject: RE: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! There may be people around who can use stress curves in a major way to develop tapers but for the most part the use of them is to look at them as if they are tools for defining the character of the rod. It's pretty tricky to look at a set of taper numbers and know if the rod is parabolic Basically just as a set of scales can be used to find the weight of metal two cubes of the same dimension, one of iron and one of copper.Say you don't know what the metals are. I'm not using true relative figures between iron and copper it's just an eg.You have the dimensions but it's hard to know anything about them such as density until you weigh them but it's a one way street because if you wanted to alter the weight of the iron cube so it becomes half way between the iron as it is originally and copper but keep it a cube you can't just shave a bit off one face, the whole lump needs to be redefined but the scales wont be any use in doing that, all they can do is show the weight of the thing. To do this you'd find the weight, get the volume, work out the metals are, *find the volume required to make a perfect cube of iron the weight required* and make it. It's the means of defining the required numbers to get the desired outcome in a fishing rod that's missing here, you could do this with a static cube or beam of wood but because a rod's dynamic it's this missing maths that causes the problem.Like scales for weighing something the actual number used to define the stress at a specific point (weight in the case of scales) isn't very important provided it's all the same unit of measurement, it can be pounds, kilo grams, ergs, horse power, inches, mm etc but what is important is it provides a level playing field for use in comparing different objects.Somebody could tell you one cube weighed 20 lb while the other was 5kg for eg, you can convert to kg or lb so you have all kg or all lb, it wont affect the outcome. If you don't convert the problem is complicated. The Garrison maths makes all tapers oranges as it were for comparison sake.The numbers (stress) don't actually mean anything in isolation in practice but do in comparison. Say we have a diving board.Say the diving board is 2" ( approx 50mm) thickSay the weight required to break this diving board is 100 lbs (about 50kg) not a very strong diving board I agree.Say we call this breaking point the Broken & Shattered factor or the BS factor of 1 (or 100, or 0 it doesn't really matter as long as it's the same in every case that is 100lbs will break 2") It *could* have been called a stress factor.What is the BS factor if you placed 50lbs on it? (0.5)What is the BS factor if you placed 75lbs on it? (0.75)What is the BS factor if you placed 100lbs on it?(1.0)What is the BS factor if you placed 101lbs on it? (1.0) Now, say the diving board is 1" thickWhat is the BS factor if you placed 25lbs on it? (0.5)What is the BS factor if you placed 50lbs on it? (1.0)What is the BS factor if you placed 51lbs on it? (1.0) It also goes the other way.Keep the weight at 50lb and vary the thickness of the beam. .5" beam BS factor = 1.0 = catastrophic flex1" beam BS factor = 1.0 = catastrophic flex1.5" beam BS factor = 0.75 = lots of flex2" beam BS factor = 0.5 = some flexetc until there is no flex at all. As can be seen, once the max BS factor has been reached it still can only go to 1 because it's broken. The beam will flex all the way from nothing to broken depending on the force acting upon it but still show the same BS factor regardless of changes of either weight or thickness provided one factor remains constant. If my daughter stood on a 2" thick beam it would not flex much (BS factor = .5), my son would make it flex a lot (BS factor = .75) while I would break it (BS factor = 1.0) the moment I stood on it because I'm well over the 100lb limit. Imagine we wanted a diving board with a special character, it flexes in the middle more than at the ends.The board is 2" at the ends and 1" in the middle. To keep it simple pretend the max BS factor can be reached without actually breaking the board AND the factor is based on specific points of the board NOT the board overall.The board BS graph would using 50lbs as the weight be 0.5, 1.0, 0.5 A parabolic diving board. Weird concept. Now say the board was 2" at one end, 1.5" in the middle and 1" at the end, using the same 50lb the graph would be 0.5, 0.75, 1.0.A progressive diving board. In the case of the parabolic board the stress in use wouldn't really be .05 at the far end because it would flex so much in the middle. To get the end of the board to 0.5 you'd need to use a different dimension of less than 2" but what dimension? And, is it better to alter the mid section to get this 0.5 factor than reduce the end or do both?This is where it becomes tricky because in practice altering dimensions along the beam will affect the beam overall and while BS factors are good these dimensions in practice along the whole length overall once you begin altering them..... I don't think.Provided you're looking at each point in isolation in a static manner to use for comparing tapers it's no problem and that's why using stress curves to compare rods works fine. Garrison maths (or a scale) provide a means of relating varied tapers (or iron and copper the case of scales) to each other so you can do something with the result and as long as that's understood it works very well. You probably can't really design a taper from scratch using Garrison maths any more than you can wire up a grocer's scales to a CNC mill and expect to get a perfect cube from a lump of iron that must weigh a certain amount without something in between the scales and the CNC mill like software to do the job. The maths between the factors that make a fishing rod and the Garrison maths is missing. Possibly a bad explanation but my point is the scales like the stress curves are a means of showing what is and are not particularly good at developing what you may want.To do that you need a whole different set of tools. I know I've taken HUGE liberties with the maths here but it's the concept I have tried to convey as I understand (?) it. Tony Bob - If you've used stress curves enough that you now intuitively grasp theconnection between the curves and the real rods, I have no quarrel withthat(as I said earlier). But as you point out it takes a lot of experience. Ifit produces a deeper level of understanding, it's worth the trouble. But Ican't see that it does, and I'm not alone. A lot of people don't see theconnection. I'm trying to get someone to tell me just what they get fromstress curves that taper graphs can't show. I don't want to reduce everything to science, but the stress curves ARE amathematical model, so it's not unreasonable to expect an understandableexplanation of their value compared to a simpler mathematical model, whichis what a taper graph is. Those who answer by saying in effect "you can'ttake the mystery out of craftsmanship" are in a funny position when themystery they're cherishing consists of differential calculus, even if it is50 years old. And any explanation that cannot get around the Milwardanalysis won't cut it. The List will be happy to hear that I'll shut up about this soon, I justwanted to see if the Milward analysis might stimulate someone to articulatesomething I may be missing in the Garrison approach. I have only good willtoward those who get good results from Hexrod, whether or not I'meventuallyable to understand it. Barry from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Aug 31 00:18:25 2001 f7V5INZ09161 Subject: Re: hooks Tiemco hooks are very popular with the salt water fish murderers out here because they are often single trip use hooks as they are lost in a break off or simply not used again next trip for whatever reason.The points are I believe acid etched so no problem when used on bigger hooks which are protected with a hunk of bait but I'm told in smaller ones the etching can be a bit savage and over do it a bit. In the case of fly hooks the point is easily broken during use.I used some flys tied by a friend using Tiemco hooks and did find myself cutting off a lot of flys due to broken points. My own fault for lousy casting Iknow but there you have it. Tony At 08:56 PM 8/30/01 -0700, Mark Dyba wrote:Hi all,I just returned from my annual fishing trip to the Yellowstone park area. Fishing was good but the water conditions, due to the drought, were bad.My question to all is this, is anyone else having trouble with Tiemco hooks? I hooked 3 good fish and lost everyone of them using Tiemco. I sharpened the hooks but no change in results. I then went back to my old Mustads and didn't loose another fish.Mark /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Aug 31 00:26:44 2001 f7V5QhZ09718 WAA04387 Subject: Tiemco This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Maybe you got a bad batch. I use Tiemco from 22 - 14 and have found them =to be very strong and needle sharp. I also use mustad they are good but =can straighten out using small hooks(20,22) on large fish. Shoot sometimes when the fishing is fast and furious landing and =releasing fish is very time consuming and sometimes it is a blast to =hook and play them then do a long distance release. Just use barbless =hooks and throw some slack into the line and Off he goes! Time to catch =another. Adam Maybe you got a bad batch. I useTiemco = 14 and have found them to be very strong and needle sharp. I also use = large fish. Shoot sometimes when the fishing is = furious landing and releasing fish is very time consuming and sometimes = blast to hook and play them then do a long distance release. Just = barbless hooks and throw some slack into the line and Off he goes! Time = another. Adam from caneman@clnk.com Fri Aug 31 01:01:50 2001 f7V61nZ11198 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: hooks This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Mark,I tried every hook on the market years ago... now my hook book is =filled with only two kinds of hooks. Mustads and a quickly dwindling =supply of Fenwick Barbless hooks. Fenwick quit making their fine =quality fly hooks, so I use nothing but Mustad these days. Quite =simply, IMHO, the best performing hook on the market. No financial =interest, btw. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 10:56 PMSubject: hooks Hi all,I just returned from my annual fishing trip to the Yellowstone park =area. Fishing was good but the water conditions, due to the drought, =were bad.My question to all is this, is anyone else having trouble with =Tiemco hooks? I hooked 3 good fish and lost everyone of them using =Tiemco. I sharpened the hooks but no change in results. I then went back =to my old Mustads and didn't loose another fish.Mark Mark, = Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Dyba =Sent: Thursday, August30, 2001 = PMSubject: hooks Hi all,I just returned from my annual = the Yellowstone park area. Fishing was good but the water conditions, = the drought, were bad.My question to all is this, is anyone else = trouble with Tiemco hooks? I hooked 3 good fish and lost everyone of = using Tiemco. I sharpened the hooks but no change in results. I then = Mark from caneman@clnk.com Fri Aug 31 01:04:25 2001 f7V64OZ11472 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: need help with spar varnish Don't add anything to the varnish. Just polish down the the finish youdesire. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: need help with spar varnish Questions for the more experienced... 1) How long should it take for true spar to dry between sandings?I wait a week, I probabl;y don't have to wait that long, but I do out ofsuperstition. 2) Would thinning the varnish with mineral spirits eliminate the dripsandwrinkles?Don't know, intuitively I'd say yes, speed is also a factor. I thin mine10% (i use man-o-war). If its thick, I would just go slower on thewithdrawl. I think my withdrawl rate is about 4" per minute. 3) Would heating the finish help?i would not go this route. If you have any small pockets in your gluejoint,the air will heat up and expand and give you a bubble. 4) Should I be wet sanding between coats?I one coat, wet sand with 2000 grit paper glued to popsicle sticks; Thenpolish. Your goal is for 0.004" of total thickness, if you can get thatwith one dip then why do more. Some dip, sand it all off leaving varinishin the small holes as filler then re-dip. Seems too much work for me.Anymore finish is over kill. 5) Can I fix this finish or should I just strip it with citrus solvewntandstart over, maybe go back to the urethane?If you had good luck with poly, you shouldn't have changed. If it worksforyou there is no reason you should change. Even if one of us "experts"tellsyou to. 6) I would prefere a semi-gloss or matte finish, can I add something tothespar varnish to change the finish gloss?Got me... You've reached my level of incompetence... Since you had goodluck with Helmsman, use their satin or semi. Good luck, hope this helps...tom from caneman@clnk.com Fri Aug 31 01:05:28 2001 f7V65SZ11621 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: need help with spar varnish 6) I would prefere a semi-gloss or matte finish, can I add something tothespar varnish to change the finish gloss? Don't add anything to the varnish. Just polish down the the finish youdesire. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: "Jill and Tom Ausfeld" Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 9:27 PMSubject: Re: need help with spar varnish Questions for the more experienced... 1) How long should it take for true spar to dry between sandings?I wait a week, I probabl;y don't have to wait that long, but I do out ofsuperstition. 2) Would thinning the varnish with mineral spirits eliminate thedripsandwrinkles?Don't know, intuitively I'd say yes, speed is also a factor. I thinmine10% (i use man-o-war). If its thick, I would just go slower on thewithdrawl. I think my withdrawl rate is about 4" per minute. 3) Would heating the finish help?i would not go this route. If you have any small pockets in your gluejoint,the air will heat up and expand and give you a bubble. 4) Should I be wet sanding between coats?I one coat, wet sand with 2000 grit paper glued to popsicle sticks;Thenpolish. Your goal is for 0.004" of total thickness, if you can get thatwith one dip then why do more. Some dip, sand it all off leavingvarinishin the small holes as filler then re-dip. Seems too much work for me.Anymore finish is over kill. 5) Can I fix this finish or should I just strip it with citrussolvewntandstart over, maybe go back to the urethane?If you had good luck with poly, you shouldn't have changed. If it worksforyou there is no reason you should change. Even if one of us "experts"tellsyou to. 6) I would prefere a semi-gloss or matte finish, can I add somethingtothespar varnish to change the finish gloss?Got me... You've reached my level of incompetence... Since you had goodluck with Helmsman, use their satin or semi. Good luck, hope this helps...tom from earsdws@duke.edu Fri Aug 31 06:28:33 2001 f7VBSWZ16436 HAA11540; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Div. of Otolaryngology-Head andNeck Surgery, Subject: Re: Steam bending --------------8C049BC0E9E73550D180AEA9 Yes, (as well as the splines) it is much easier/faster because of themore efficient transfer of the heat...no scorching either (for those ofus who do not care for the appearance of cane ala flambe). Just watchyour fingers, the steam doesn't really care where it transfers the heatto...dws. Pfdad@aol.com wrote: Hello List:Has anyone tried steam bending of the node areas; it shouldtemporarilysoften the fibers. A steaming jig could be something as simple as akettleon the stove or a more specialized thing such as propane fired fishcook pot,etc. It would require a small fixture to keep the piece straightwhilstcooling. Phil FentressMemphis TN --------------8C049BC0E9E73550D180AEA9 Yes, (as well as the splines) it is much easier/faster because of the moreefficient transfer of the heat...no scorching either (for those of us who watchyour fingers, the steam doesn't really care where it transfers the heatto...dws.Pfdad@aol.com wrote:HelloList: steambending of the node areas; it should temporarily A steaming jig could be something as simple as a kettleon the stove or a morespecializedthing such as propane fired fish cook pot, a small fixture to keep the piece straight whilstcooling.Phil FentressMemphisTN --------------8C049BC0E9E73550D180AEA9-- from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Fri Aug 31 06:47:34 2001 f7VBlWZ16911 Fri, 31 Aug 2001 04:47:09 -0700 claiming to be "oemcomputer" 2001 Subject: Re: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! All,Here is my suggestion to newbies wanting to unlock the secret of stessgraphs and the like. Build a couple of rods with known tapers (fromarchives), say all 5 wts, all same length, preferebly dractisally differentactions. Graph their stresses, put on a line on and cast them all and makea correlation with whats on paper to what they are feeling. Then it maycome to you. It worked for me. I came up with decent tapers this way, I'msure they have been done before, but its nice to know I came up with it. regardstom ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! I have to agree with Frank on this... Even though I hold Bob M. in thehighest esteem, I think the stress calculations are VERY useful. No, theydon't tell you what is going on in a rod during casting, but they are veryhelpful in rod design. Before I knew how to use a computer to do thework,I developed my own tapers... did I rely solely on Garrison's calculations?NO, but I did use them extensively.Now, here is where I'm going to upset a few. I know this is going tosound "uppity" from an old man, but once you have seen and stressgraphedenough rods, you will see a corelation between rod action and the stressgraph. That corelation is NOT direct, BUT, it is very helpful indetermining how a rod will react in a casting or fishing situation.However,once you understand that a hump here, a dip there or flat spot somewhereelse in a stress graph relates to the "real life" reactions of the rodduring casting, then you begin to see how the stress graph relates to it'scasting characteristics. DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU HAVE TOBESMARTER TO SEE USE IN A STRESS GRAPH, ONLY THAT FOR "ME", IT ISEASIER TOPREDICT A RODS REAL LIFE CHARACTERISTICS USING THE STRESS GRAPHTOESTIMATETHE BENDING MOMENTS IN A ROD!I spent many a night and day, months on end, crunching numbers to getastress graph lined out for the tapers I now use. Wasn't easy and a lot ofrods ended up getting the ferrules and hardware pulled off of them andbecame fillers for the 40 gallon trash barrel can at the end of the bench.In other words, garrisons calculations are NOT absolute, and there isnothing in the world that you can punch in (in my opinion) and come outwiththe perfect rod, but they are usable tool that allowed me to develop closeto 30 rod tapers without building 10 of each to see how they'd work inreallife... yep, there were times that I built 3 or 4 of a model before I gotitright, but I felt like that was a pretty low number compared to what itwould have been if I hadn't had Garrisons formulae at my disposal. Oh,andthere were also times that the first rod build by manipulating a stressgraph came out exactly as I hoped it would... the first time!Conclusion, building an understanding of stress graphs is a great toolwhen trying to design rods, but it is not an absolute... additionalconclusion, You don't have to become smarter to understand stressgraphs,just cast a lot of rods, graph them and in your mind build a corelationbetween the real life casting characteristics of the rod, and the shapesofthe stress graphs. It took me years to build that corelation in my mind.Stress graphs are an absolute by any means, but still a very useful tool.Of course this is just my opinion, and, as Dennis Miller says, "Icouldbe wrong". Later,Bob ----- Original Message -----From: "Frank Stetzer" Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 12:38 PMSubject: RE: Rod Stress Grapghs Barry, Milward's _Analysis_ shows that, as you state, Garrison's stresscalculations do not represent what goes on in a rod during casting.I don't recall anyone objecting to this. I don't. He is correct.We went over this last month. Milward's _Broader Conclusion_ seem to be that Garrison's stresscalculations are therefore not useful in rod design. I happen todisagree with this. The Garrison stress numbers are real stresseswithin the rod. If the total stress is comprised of a static partand a dynamic (casting) part, the Garrison numbers are the static part.I think its valuable to know this one piece of the whole. To me that'sbetter than knowing no pieces. I think we are arguing over whether the Garrison stress numbersmeasure 0% or 5% or 10% of what is going on in the rod. Maybe weshould be discussing what the other 90+% looks like. Milward givesus some pictures and that is a place to start. Its interesting how Milward has gored a lot of our personal oxen.I hear the price of flamed rods are sinking like a clouser minnow :- )......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Frank - I did exactly what you suggest, and I agree with Milward thattheyare arbitrary and do not accurately estimate the actual stressesexperienced analysis except for variations on one of two themes - "Garrison isgreat" or"you'd understand if you were smart enough." Neither of theseapproachesanswers the question. Garrison is (was) great, some of us are plentysmartand experienced enough to understand Garrison's approach, and no onehasyettaken up the challenge. Barry from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Aug 31 07:12:39 2001 f7VCCbZ17668 Subject: Re: Steam bending Do you find the nodes wanting to pop back out after everything has dried out? Also, do you soak your strips or just the nodes before pressing? Tony At 07:27 AM 8/31/01 -0400, David W. Smith, Ph.D. wrote:Yes, (as well as the splines) it is much easier/faster because of the more efficient transfer of the heat...no scorching either (for those of us who do not care for the appearance of cane ala flambe). Just watch your fingers, the steam doesn't really care where it transfers the heat to...dws. Pfdad@aol.com wrote:Hello List:Has anyone tried steam bending of the node areas; it should temporarilysoften the fibers. A steaming jig could be something as simple as a kettleon the stove or a more specialized thing such as propane fired fish cook pot,etc. It would require a small fixture to keep the piece straight whilstcooling. Phil FentressMemphis TN /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Fri Aug 31 07:15:27 2001 f7VCFQZ17912 +0000 Subject: Interesting Rod Hello All, Came across an interesting rod yesterday. It is a Crestline (yellowlabel) and says Japan at the bottom of the label. Not a bad quality rod,as Japanese rods go. The interesting part is the handle has female ferrule in both ends, inorder to spin the reel seet. This accomodates the heavy spin tip or themid and tip on the fly rod variation. The rod is complete. I have neverseen one of these before. Comments? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from earsdws@duke.edu Fri Aug 31 07:23:51 2001 f7VCNoZ18173 IAA13319; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Div. of Otolaryngology-Head andNeck Surgery, Subject: Re: Steam bending --------------58B0A5446987D4BF212A2896 Tony,I don't see (at least not bad enough to recall) them popping back out. Thething I do notice is how much faster the bending goes, the moisture/steam issimply a much more effective vehicle for transferring heat, as comparedwithair. In fact, steam is frequently used to dry wood (look carefully at theinsideof the spout of your tea kettle as it steams away...bone dry). This seems tobea rather significant misconception with many cane builders that steam(moisturein this form) is anathema. It's not. Like many cane guys, that's what Ithoughtuntil I read a long discourse from a wooden boat builder in Classic Boatingmagazine.dws. Tony Young wrote: Do you find the nodes wanting to pop back out after everything has driedout? Also, do you soak your strips or just the nodes before pressing? Tony At 07:27 AM 8/31/01 -0400, David W. Smith, Ph.D. wrote:Yes, (as well as the splines) it is much easier/faster because of the moreefficient transfer of the heat...no scorching either (for those of us whodo not care for the appearance of cane ala flambe). Just watch yourfingers, the steam doesn't really care where it transfers the heat to...dws. Pfdad@aol.com wrote:Hello List:Has anyone tried steam bending of the node areas; it shouldtemporarilysoften the fibers. A steaming jig could be something as simple as akettleon the stove or a more specialized thing such as propane fired fish cookpot,etc. It would require a small fixture to keep the piece straight whilstcooling. Phil FentressMemphis TN /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ --------------58B0A5446987D4BF212A2896 Tony, bending goes, the moisture/steam is simply a much more effective vehicle frequentlyused to dry wood (look carefully at the inside of the spout of your tea significantmisconception with many cane builders that steam (moisture in this form) thoughtuntil I read a long discourse from a wooden boat builder in ClassicBoating magazine.dws.Tony Young wrote:Do you find the nodes wanting to pop back out aftereverything has driedout? Also, do you soak your strips or just the nodes before pressing?TonyAt 07:27 AM 8/31/01 -0400, David W. Smith, Ph.D. wrote:Yes, (as well as the splines) it is much easier/faster because ofthe moreefficient transfer of the heat...no scorching either (for those ofus who yourfingers, the steam doesn't really care where it transfers the heatto...dws. Pfdad@aol.com wrote:Hello List: temporarily as a kettleon the stove or a more specialized thing such as propane fired fishcookpot, whilstcooling. Phil FentressMemphis TN /*************************************************************************/AV Young www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ --------------58B0A5446987D4BF212A2896-- from rsgould@cmc.net Fri Aug 31 07:28:16 2001 f7VCSFZ18493 Subject: Re: hooks This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi all,I'm particularly fond of the Tiemco model #200 hook. It has a straight =eye which I believe gives the fly a better action in the water than a =turned down eye. It also strong and has a small barb easily pinched down =to make it barbless. And for tying chironomids that have a bead head =it's easy to get the bead over the barb and up to the eye of the hook. I =find them very strong yet light weight and ideal for those Kamloops =trout. Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 8:56 PMSubject: hooks Hi all,I just returned from my annual fishing trip to the Yellowstone park =area. Fishing was good but the water conditions, due to the drought, =were bad.My question to all is this, is anyone else having trouble with =Tiemco hooks? I hooked 3 good fish and lost everyone of them using =Tiemco. I sharpened the hooks but no change in results. I then went back =to my old Mustads and didn't loose another fish.Mark Hi all,I'm particularly fond of the Tiemco = hook. It has a straight eye which I believe gives the fly a better = water than a turned down eye. It also strong and has a small barb easily = down to make it barbless. And for tying chironomids that have a bead = easy to get the bead over the barb and up to the eye of the hook. I find = very strong yet light weight and ideal for those Kamloops =trout.Ray----- Original Message -----= Dyba = Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001= PMSubject: hooks Hi all,I just returned from my annual = the Yellowstone park area. Fishing was good but the water conditions, = the drought, were bad.My question to all is this, is anyone else = trouble with Tiemco hooks? I hooked 3 good fish and lost everyone of = using Tiemco. I sharpened the hooks but no change in results. I then = Mark from dnorl@qwest.net Fri Aug 31 07:59:27 2001 f7VCxQZ19196 0000 (63.228.46.66) Subject: Re: Steam bending This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Trying to figure out what a steam set up for myself would be. What does =yours look like? Seems like it would be a good alternative to soaking.Dave Norling-----Original Message-----From: David W. Smith, Ph.D. Cc: Pfdad@aol.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Friday, August 31, 2001 7:24 AMSubject: Re: Steam bending I don't see (at least not bad enough to recall) them popping =back out. The thing I do notice is how much faster the bending goes, =the moisture/steam is simply a much more effective vehicle for =transferring heat, as compared with air. In fact, steam is frequently =used to dry wood (look carefully at the inside of the spout of your tea =kettle as it steams away...bone dry). This seems to be a rather =significant misconception with many cane builders that steam (moisture =in this form) is anathema. It's not. Like many cane guys, that's what =I thought until I read a long discourse from a wooden boat builder in = Do you find the nodes wanting to pop back out after everything = out? Also, do you soak your strips or just the nodes before = Yes, (as well as the splines) it is much easier/faster because = efficient transfer of the heat...no scorching either (for those = do not care for the appearance of cane ala flambe). Just watch = fingers, the steam doesn't really care where it transfers the = Has anyone tried steam bending of the node areas; it should = soften the fibers. A steaming jig could be something as = on the stove or a more specialized thing such as propane fired = etc. It would require a small fixture to keep the piece = =/***********************************************************************= And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt = With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and = =/***********************************************************************=**/ Trying to figure out what a steam set up for myself= soaking.Dave Norling -----Original = = <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Friday, August 31, 2001 7:24 AMSubject: Re: see = notice is how much faster the bending goes, the moisture/steam is = discourse from a wooden boat builder in Classic Boating = Do you find the nodes wanting to pop back = after everything has dried out? Also, do you soak your = At 07:27 AM 8/31/01 -0400, David W. Smith, Ph.D. wrote: = (as well as the splines) it is much easier/faster because of the = Has anyone tried steam bending of the node areas; it should = = hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt me = they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste, = = *********/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Aug 31 08:24:49 2001 f7VDOlZ20367 Subject: Re: Steam bending David,steam is great stuff for bending that's for sure. Are you soaking the whole strip and using a hot air gun to make the steam from the water in the soaked strip or are you putting steam over the nodes? Tony At 08:23 AM 8/31/01 -0400, David W. Smith, Ph.D. wrote:Tony,I don't see (at least not bad enough to recall) them popping back out. The thing I do notice is how much faster the bending goes, the moisture/steam is simply a much more effective vehicle for transferring heat, as compared with air. In fact, steam is frequently used to dry wood (look carefully at the inside of the spout of your tea kettle as it steams away...bone dry). This seems to be a rather significant misconception with many cane builders that steam (moisture in this form) is anathema. It's not. Like many cane guys, that's what I thought until I read a long discourse from a wooden boat builder in Classic Boating magazine.dws. Tony Young wrote:Do you find the nodes wanting to pop back out after everything has driedout? Also, do you soak your strips or just the nodes before pressing? Tony At 07:27 AM 8/31/01 -0400, David W. Smith, Ph.D. wrote:Yes, (as well as the splines) it is much easier/faster because of themoreefficient transfer of the heat...no scorching either (for those of us whodo not care for the appearance of cane ala flambe). Just watch yourfingers, the steam doesn't really care where it transfers the heat to...dws. Pfdad@aol.com wrote:Hello List:Has anyone tried steam bending of the node areas; it shouldtemporarilysoften the fibers. A steaming jig could be something as simple as a kettleon the stove or a more specialized thing such as propane fired fishcookpot,etc. It would require a small fixture to keep the piece straight whilstcooling. Phil FentressMemphis TN /*********************************************************************** **/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from gjm80301@yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 08:25:55 2001 f7VDPsZ20548 Fri, 31 Aug 2001 06:25:55 PDT Subject: Re: hooks A little more info. The Tiemco 200R is the heqvier. nymoh version. the "old" 200 that is lighter is now the 2312, I think. I use it --- Ray Gould wrote:Hi all,I'm particularly fond of the Tiemco model #200 hook. It has astraight eye which I believe gives the fly a better action in thewater than a turned down eye. It also strong and has a small barbeasily pinched down to make it barbless. And for tying chironomidsthat have a bead head it's easy to get the bead over the barb andup to the eye of the hook. I find them very strong yet light weightand ideal for those Kamloops trout.Ray----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Dyba Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 8:56 PMSubject: hooks Hi all,I just returned from my annual fishing trip to the Yellowstonepark area. Fishing was good but the water conditions, due to thedrought, were bad.My question to all is this, is anyone else havingtrouble with Tiemco hooks? I hooked 3 good fish and lost everyoneof them using Tiemco. I sharpened the hooks but no change inresults. I then went back to my old Mustads and didn't looseanother fish.Mark __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!Messengerhttp://im.yahoo.com from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 31 09:40:42 2001 f7VEefZ23416 Subject: Re: Steam bending Here's what I did. I bought a Presto pressure cooker and made anattachment to mount in place of the steam control on the pot. My reasoningwas the higher the pressure, the higher the steam temperature. Theattachment had a chamber 3" long by 3/4" in diameter that allowed the nodearea to be steamed. I had a pressure guage mounted on the attachment so Icould monitor the pressure. I ran the thing at 20 lb. of pressure. I tested iton several lots of bamboo and in the end deemed it a failure. When all wassaid and done, the hot air gun was faster and easier to use. SWMBO is nowusing the pot to cook beans and I bought a better hot air gun. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Pfdad@aol.com wrote:Hello List:Has anyone tried steam bending of the node areas; it should temporarily soften the fibers. A steaming jig could be something as simple as a kettle on the stove or a more specialized thing such as propane fired fish cookpot, etc. It would require a small fixture to keep the piece straight whilst cooling. Phil FentressMemphis TN from earsdws@duke.edu Fri Aug 31 09:47:52 2001 f7VElpZ23817 KAA29765; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Div. of Otolaryngology-Head andNeck Surgery, Subject: quad conversion for PHY midge 6' 4" anyone? Anyone have a conversion for the PHY midge, 6'4" 4 wt hex to a quad?Love the rod, would like to try it in a quadrate.Thanks in advance, dws. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Aug 31 10:02:28 2001 f7VF2QZ24602 Subject: Re: Steam bending I know bamboo isn't wood but when steam bending wood what you want isWET steam, dry steam isn't very good. May not be an issue with bamboo especially in the dimensions were using but maybe worth thinking about Tony At 10:40 AM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Here's what I did. I bought a Presto pressure cooker and made an attachment to mount in place of the steam control on the pot. My reasoning was the higher the pressure, the higher the steam temperature. The attachment had a chamber 3" long by 3/4" in diameter that allowed the node area to be steamed. I had a pressure guage mounted on the attachment so I could monitor the pressure. I ran the thing at 20 lb. of pressure. I tested it on several lots of bamboo and in the end deemed it a failure. When all was said and done, the hot air gun was faster and easier to use. SWMBO is now using the pot to cook beans and I bought a better hot air gun. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from gjm80301@yahoo.com Fri Aug 31 10:06:43 2001 f7VF6gZ24901 Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:06:43 PDT Subject: Bloating/shrinkage of soaked strips : Data My question earlier in the week generated some good responses, but nosrong opinions about how much strips bloat when soaked or shrink whenre-dried. I decided to experimant with some of the strips I'm now working on. I took 4 good-sized strips (ranging from .206 to .278), marked thewidth measurement after splitting on three spots on each and startedsoaking. I re-measured every 12 hours for 3 days. The experimant isover, because they were straightenend and roughed last night. Here are the results: I'll give the % increae in width for the least growth, average andmost growth at each point. 12 hours 1.1%, 3.3%, 4.9% 24 hours 1.8%, 3.8%, 5.8% 36 hours 3.2%, 5.0%, 7.0% 48 hours 4.1%, 5.5%, 7.8% 60 hours 4.1%, 6.0%, 7.8% 72 hours 4.5%, 6.4%, 7.8% __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!Messengerhttp://im.yahoo.com from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Fri Aug 31 10:51:32 2001 f7VFpVZ27480 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) Subject: RE: Checking the filed groove f7VFpVZ27483 Phil -- I've done this on my homemade V-block (pseudo-equivalent to the famousWaara). We have an inspection process here at our machine shop which weaffectionately refer to as "pouring a puddle". It is a two part mixturethat is kinda like an epoxy, but non-adhering to the surface that itcontacts. And it doesn't really pour, it's more like warm silly putty forthe first three or four minutes. Then it "sets up" about like a hard rubberball. We slice it off in a cross section and then put the sample under anoptical comparator (calibrated projection measuring device) to verifyangles, linear measurements, parallel-ness, etc. Great to have at yerdisposal, that's for sure! Let me know if you have anything of strangedimensions or configuration that you need measured, and I may be able tohelp. TAM----- Original Message----- Subject: Checking the filed groove Hello List: There is a technique used by moldmakers of plastic injection molds and die blocks to determine cavity shape as their work progresses. They keep asmall amount of modeling clay handy which they press into the cavity and then pull out to examine the resultant imparted shape. This clay might be used to check the evenness of 60Ÿ groove filing as it progresses. You would be able to check a few inches at a time to see that the groove bottoms are evenfrom one steel bar of a pair to the other. There are plasticized clays that do not dry out. Phil Fentress Memphis TN from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 31 11:44:47 2001 f7VGikZ29750 Subject: Re: Steam bending Ok, I'll show my ignorance! What's the difference between "dry" and "wet"steam? The method I was working with is the relationship between pressureand boiling point. It seemed plenty "wet"! By heating water in a closedccntainer, the water initially boils at the atmospheric pressure. Byrestricting the escaping steam, the pressure in the container will increaseraising the boiling point/steam temperature. By monitoring the pressure,you control the temperature. I felt the system became to slow andcumbersom and downright dangerous for higher pressure and temperature. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote:I know bamboo isn't wood but when steam bending wood what you want isWET steam, dry steam isn't very good. May not be an issue with bamboo especially in the dimensions were using but maybe worth thinking about Tony At 10:40 AM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Here's what I did. I bought a Presto pressure cooker and made an attachment to mount in place of the steam control on the pot. My reasoning was the higher the pressure, the higher the steam temperature. The attachment had a chamber 3" long by 3/4" in diameter that allowed the node area to be steamed. I had a pressure guage mounted on the attachment so I could monitor the pressure. I ran the thing at 20 lb. of pressure. I tested it on several lots of bamboo and in the end deemed it a failure. When all was said and done, the hot air gun was faster and easier to use. SWMBO is now using the pot to cook beans and I bought a better hot air gun. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Aug 31 11:50:00 2001 f7VGnwZ00180 Subject: Re: Steam bending I've never tried to make "dry" steam but I think it's what you'd get if the steam was made under pressure any greater than normal atmosphericpressure. Tony At 12:44 PM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Ok, I'll show my ignorance! What's the difference between "dry" and "wet" steam? The method I was working with is the relationship betweenpressure and boiling point. It seemed plenty "wet"! By heating water in a closed ccntainer, the water initially boils at the atmospheric pressure. By restricting the escaping steam, the pressure in the container will increase raising the boiling point/steam temperature. By monitoring the pressure, you control the temperature. I felt the system became to slow and cumbersom and downright dangerous for higher pressure andtemperature. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote:I know bamboo isn't wood but when steam bending wood what you want isWETsteam, dry steam isn't very good. May not be an issue with bambooespecially in the dimensions were using but maybe worth thinking about Tony At 10:40 AM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Here's what I did. I bought a Presto pressure cooker and made anattachment to mount in place of the steam control on the pot. Myreasoning was the higher the pressure, the higher the steamtemperature. The attachment had a chamber 3" long by 3/4" in diameterthat allowed the node area to be steamed. I had a pressure guagemountedon the attachment so I could monitor the pressure. I ran the thing at 20lb. of pressure. I tested it on several lots of bamboo and in the enddeemed it a failure. When all was said and done, the hot air gun wasfaster and easier to use. SWMBO is now using the pot to cook beans and Ibought a better hot air gun. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from bhoy551@earthlink.net Fri Aug 31 11:55:51 2001 f7VGtoZ00650 Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:55:46 -0400 groove FILETIME=[C7B31240:01C1323D] f7VGtpZ00651 Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:55:34 -0400 From: Bill Hoy Subject: RE: Checking the filed groove My wife is a dentist. She's promised to get me some of the stuff they use to mold dentures. It doesn't shrink as it cures and doesn't adhere to the metal. We once used to repair a crack in a box turtle's shell. Bill At 10:51 AM 8/31/2001 -0500, you wrote:Phil -- I've done this on my homemade V-block (pseudo-equivalent to the famousWaara). We have an inspection process here at our machine shop whichweaffectionately refer to as "pouring a puddle". It is a two part mixturethat is kinda like an epoxy, but non-adhering to the surface that itcontacts. And it doesn't really pour, it's more like warm silly putty forthe first three or four minutes. Then it "sets up" about like a hard rubberball. We slice it off in a cross section and then put the sample under anoptical comparator (calibrated projection measuring device) to verifyangles, linear measurements, parallel-ness, etc. Great to have at yerdisposal, that's for sure! Let me know if you have anything of strangedimensions or configuration that you need measured, and I may be able tohelp. TAM----- Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 10:47 PM Subject: Checking the filed groove Hello List:There is a technique used by moldmakers of plastic injection molds anddieblocks to determine cavity shape as their work progresses. They keep asmallamount of modeling clay handy which they press into the cavity and thenpull out to examine the resultant imparted shape. This clay might be used tocheck the evenness of 60Ÿ groove filing as it progresses. You would beable to check a few inches at a time to see that the groove bottoms are evenfrom one steel bar of a pair to the other. There are plasticized clays that donot dry out. Phil FentressMemphis TN from beadman@mac.com Fri Aug 31 12:59:00 2001 f7VHwxZ02998 Subject: Re: Steam bending f7VHx0Z02999 At 12:54 AM +0800 on 9/1/01, Tony Young wrote about Re: Steam bending I've never tried to make "dry" steam but I think it's what you'd get if the steam was made under pressure any greater than normal atmospheric pressure. If I still remember what I was supposed to have learned back in the days when I was a Navy officer, the principal difference is that you can see "wet" steam, and you can't see "dry" steam; the "dry" is also hotter. A Navy boiler heats water in tubes, under pressure (600 PSI), until it boils. The steam is led away and then routed through another series of tubes where the steam itself is heated even more. This becomes "superheated" steam and his a much higher energy content. from there, it is sent to the turbines, etc. The sailors who worked on the steam plant used to test repaired flange joints in the steam lines with an ordinary broom by waving the broom around the outside of the flange; if the straw bristles suddenly fell off the broom, you had found a leak. A pinhole leak would cut right through the broom handle... It all depends on how hot you need the steam to be to soften the cane. At sea level, boiling water and the wet steam from it, is basically around 212Ÿ F. If that's hot enough, then just put a tea kettle on a hot plate on the bench and hold the node over the steam jet coming out of the kettle. If that's not hot enough, then you'd need to rig up a superheater for the steam. A quick and dirty way would be to use that pressure cooker. Leave the safety value alone on it. Drill a hole through the lid (you want the pressure gauge to stay on the lid), and attach a length of copper tubing to the lid. Bend the copper tubing into a fairly tight coil (you'll only need a few loops), and then bend the end upward at a convenient angle for the escaping steam. Put a fitting on the end of it to reduce the end down to a very small hole for the steam jet to come out of. Support the copper coils on some sort of metal stands next to the pressure cooker, and arrange for a heat source to apply directly to the copper coils. A propane torch would probably work, or even your heat gun. To operate, put water in the pressure cooker, put the lid on, and bring to a boil. Once steam starts to come out the nozzle at the end of the copper tubing, light off the superheater heat source and put it on the coils of copper to add additional heat energy to the steam. Make sure the steam pressure does not exceed the pressure cooker's manufacturer's specifications. Shortly, you notice the steam coming from the hole is next to invisible. DO NOT GET ANY PART OF YOUR BODY NEAR THIS NOZZLE. WEAR LEATHER GLOVES, SAFETY GOGGLES AND LONG SLEEVES. The superheated steam will heat cane (or anything else) quickly; in fact, it will cook human flesh that gets too near it. Like most hot things, this can be really dangerous if you aren't careful, observe all safety precautions, test your safety valves, etc. If you decide to build one of these, or something similar, go to your local library and read up on the subjects of steam power, superheated steam, etc. Or, you could just use the hot air gun or an alcohol lamp to directly heat the nodes. Personally, I'd give the tea kettle a try first Claude from rsgould@cmc.net Fri Aug 31 13:14:18 2001 f7VIEHZ03866 Subject: Re: Interesting Rod Hi all,The Crestline is familiar to me as well. I worked on one in 1983 . It was an8'-6" x 3pc with a reversible reel seat. I did notice the dubious qualityand scarcity of guides on this rod. It had only 2 guides on the tip section, 2 on the mid section and 1 on the butt section.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Interesting Rod Hello All, Came across an interesting rod yesterday. It is a Crestline (yellowlabel) and says Japan at the bottom of the label. Not a bad quality rod,as Japanese rods go. The interesting part is the handle has female ferrule in both ends, inorder to spin the reel seet. This accomodates the heavy spin tip or themid and tip on the fly rod variation. The rod is complete. I have neverseen one of these before. Comments? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from bamboorods@saber.net Fri Aug 31 13:15:31 2001 f7VIFUZ04092 Subject: Fw: Steam bending DON'T TRY THIS!!! DON'T DO THE MOD TO THE PRESSURE COOKER.-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Steam bending At 12:54 AM +0800 on 9/1/01, Tony Young wrote about Re: Steam bending I've never tried to make "dry" steam but I think it's what you'd getif the steam was made under pressure any greater than normalatmospheric pressure. If I still remember what I was supposed to have learned back in thedays when I was a Navy officer, the principal difference is that youcan see "wet" steam, and you can't see "dry" steam; the "dry" is alsohotter. A Navy boiler heats water in tubes, under pressure (600PSI), until it boils. The steam is led away and then routed throughanother series of tubes where the steam itself is heated even more.This becomes "superheated" steam and his a much higher energycontent. from there, it is sent to the turbines, etc. The sailors who worked on the steam plant used to test repairedflange joints in the steam lines with an ordinary broom by waving thebroom around the outside of the flange; if the straw bristlessuddenly fell off the broom, you had found a leak. A pinhole leakwould cut right through the broom handle... It all depends on how hot you need the steam to be to soften thecane. At sea level, boiling water and the wet steam from it, isbasically around 212Ÿ F. If that's hot enough, then just put a teakettle on a hot plate on the bench and hold the node over the steamjet coming out of the kettle. If that's not hot enough, then you'dneed to rig up a superheater for the steam. A quick and dirty waywould be to use that pressure cooker. Leave the safety value aloneon it. Drill a hole through the lid (you want the pressure gauge tostay on the lid), and attach a length of copper tubing to the lid.Bend the copper tubing into a fairly tight coil (you'll only need afew loops), and then bend the end upward at a convenient angle forthe escaping steam. Put a fitting on the end of it to reduce the enddown to a very small hole for the steam jet to come out of. Supportthe copper coils on some sort of metal stands next to the pressurecooker, and arrange for a heat source to apply directly to the coppercoils. A propane torch would probably work, or even your heat gun. To operate, put water in the pressure cooker, put the lid on, andbring to a boil. Once steam starts to come out the nozzle at the endof the copper tubing, light off the superheater heat source and putit on the coils of copper to add additional heat energy to the steam.Make sure the steam pressure does not exceed the pressure cooker'smanufacturer's specifications. Shortly, you notice the steam coming from the hole is next to invisible. DO NOT GET ANY PART OF YOUR BODYNEAR THIS NOZZLE. WEAR LEATHER GLOVES, SAFETY GOGGLES AND LONGSLEEVES. The superheated steam will heat cane (or anything else)quickly; in fact, it will cook human flesh that gets too near it. Like most hot things, this can be really dangerous if you aren'tcareful, observe all safety precautions, test your safety valves,etc. If you decide to build one of these, or something similar, goto your local library and read up on the subjects of steam power,superheated steam, etc. Or, you could just use the hot air gun or analcohol lamp to directly heat the nodes. Personally, I'd give thetea kettle a try first Claude from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Fri Aug 31 14:03:33 2001 f7VJ3XZ06487 OAA14194 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:03:31 Subject: Re: Steam bending I tried a teakettle with a short piece of radiator hose, leadingto a small (6x8x1 inch) lidded box, which held 4 strips with thenode in question getting blasted by the steam. Apparently it wasnot hot enough to soften the node. The contraption went into myunsuccessful jig pile. Raised the humidity in the basement, though. I average about 4 failed jigs and gizmos for every rod I complete.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from splitcane@t-online.de Fri Aug 31 14:24:20 2001 f7VJOJZ07572 fwd01.sul.t-online.com Subject: Re: Interesting Rod I had one of them in the sixties and as a young lad who just startedflyfishin was very proud of it but after casting a season the rod was bended(propably japanese cane). And as all multipurpouse rods (at this time) verycheap. I wouldn't buy it again (if your rod is of the same brand) becaus ofthe pioor material and they are machined.Just my private little memories :)regardsMichael Steve Trauthwein schrieb: Hello All, Came across an interesting rod yesterday. It is a Crestline (yellowlabel) and says Japan at the bottom of the label. Not a bad quality rod,as Japanese rods go. The interesting part is the handle has female ferrule in both ends, inorder to spin the reel seet. This accomodates the heavy spin tip or themid and tip on the fly rod variation. The rod is complete. I have neverseen one of these before. Comments? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 31 14:55:58 2001 f7VJtvZ11913 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Steam bending Then I made dry steam? What's wet steam? Made at atmospheric pressure? High (above 100 degree C) would be made by heating steam made at normalatmospheric pressure? And steam made this way at lets say, 200 degree C,would have different properties from 200 degree C steam generated underpressure? Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote:I've never tried to make "dry" steam but I think it's what you'd get if thesteam was made under pressure any greater than normal atmosphericpressure. Tony At 12:44 PM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Ok, I'll show my ignorance! What's the difference between "dry" and "wet" steam? The method I was working with is the relationship betweenpressure and boiling point. It seemed plenty "wet"! By heating water in a closed ccntainer, the water initially boils at the atmospheric pressure. By restricting the escaping steam, the pressure in the container will increase raising the boiling point/steam temperature. By monitoring the pressure, you control the temperature. I felt the system became to slow and cumbersom and downright dangerous for higher pressure andtemperature. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote:I know bamboo isn't wood but when steam bending wood what you want isWETsteam, dry steam isn't very good. May not be an issue with bambooespecially in the dimensions were using but maybe worth thinking about Tony At 10:40 AM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Here's what I did. I bought a Presto pressure cooker and made anattachment to mount in place of the steam control on the pot. Myreasoning was the higher the pressure, the higher the steamtemperature. The attachment had a chamber 3" long by 3/4" in diameterthat allowed the node area to be steamed. I had a pressure guagemountedon the attachment so I could monitor the pressure. I ran the thing at 20lb. of pressure. I tested it on several lots of bamboo and in the enddeemed it a failure. When all was said and done, the hot air gun wasfaster and easier to use. SWMBO is now using the pot to cook beans and Ibought a better hot air gun. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from jvswan@earthlink.net Fri Aug 31 15:14:28 2001 f7VKERZ16750 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Subject: Binder question Hey all, I was wondering how many of you use the more common Garrison style binderand how many use the Milward four spool binder. For those that use theGarrison, how do you minimize the twist during the first pass through thebinder? How does that binder handle fine tip sections? What sort of binding cord doyou use? Thanks, Jason from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 31 15:18:50 2001 f7VKInZ18046 Subject: Re: Steam bending Ok. Just a matter of semantics. It is MHO that the 212 degree Ftemperature is insufficient to produce the "softning" seen when using a hotair gun. I was aware of the dangers of high temperature steam. Theexperiment was to find out if the steam temperature necessary to softenthe resin could be obtained from a pressure vessel and at whattemperature/pressure. What I found, I didn't like so I terminated theexperiment. It's very hard to find a process more simple than "pull switchand wait". Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com If I still remember what I was supposed to have learned back in the days when I was a Navy officer, the principal difference is that you can see "wet" steam, and you can't see "dry" steam; the "dry" is also hotter. from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 31 16:05:51 2001 f7VL5oZ29195 Subject: Re: Binder question Hi Jason,I use a Milward style binder. I tweak it before I start to minimize the "jerking"about. I bind with cotton quilting thread. The binder is driven by a drill andcontrolled by a SCR speed control. I need to build another and refine some ofthe thread tensioning but it handles the tips with no problems. When I buildanother binder it will be of the same type. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com jvswan@earthlink.net wrote:Hey all,I was wondering how many of you use the more common Garrison style binderand how many use the Milward four spool binder. For those that use theGarrison, how do you minimize the twist during the first pass through thebinder? How does that binder handle fine tip sections? What sort of binding cord doyou use? Thanks, Jason from bamboorods@saber.net Fri Aug 31 17:35:08 2001 f7VMZ7Z16258 Subject: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Website shows several issues from last year available. Have not seen =any mags in fly shops. Anyone read winter 2000 mag?Thanks,Chris Website shows several issues from last year = mag?Thanks,Chris from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Fri Aug 31 18:13:23 2001 f7VNDMZ17266 Sat, 1 Sep 2001 00:13:18 +0100 Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine The website also infers an allegiance with the UK Rodmakers which itcertainly hasn't............I am also still awaiting a response to my numerous e-mails and teleconsof 12 months previous ?..........PaulNote; this topic is always good for stirring up the ranks ! Chris Raine wrote: Website shows several issues from last year available. Have not seenany mags in fly shops. Anyone read winter 2000 mag?Thanks,Chris from Canerods@aol.com Fri Aug 31 19:36:26 2001 f810aPZ18875 Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine I have a Heddon #14 tip that I scarfed for Mark Metcalf (editor and co-owner BFR) and haven't been able to deliver due to no way to contact - my recent emails have gone unanswered. Two earlier attempts to meet with Mark weremet with "I'll be out of town and I will contact you next week" blow offs. Heck, I wasn't asking for any money for the tip repair, as I was going to write a tip scarf article for BFR mag. and Mark provided this tip to use in the article. Don Burns I have a Heddon #14 tipthat I scarfed for Mark Metcalf (editor and co-owner BFR) and haven't been able to deliver due to no way to contact - myrecent emails have gone unanswered. Two earlier attempts to meet with Markwere met with "I'll be out of town and I will contact you next week" blow offs. Heck, I wasn't asking for any money for the tip repair, as I was going to write a tip scarf article for BFR mag. and Mark provided this tip to usein the article. Don Burns from dstreight@yarcom.com Fri Aug 31 19:53:16 2001 f810rFZ19368 0700 (141.156.142.77) -0700 Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine I just ordered some back issues and paid with PayPal (before you guysstarted questioning the viability of the mag and site!!!). PayPal seems tothink the site is active and I noticed that the copywrite has changed tolist 2001 now as well. Sure hope I see some magazines for my money... David A. Streight from channer@frontier.net Fri Aug 31 20:24:40 2001 f811OdZ20043 Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine Will you guys give it up already, TBFRMagazine is dead meat, defunct, nolonger exists, except maybe in some fevered imaginations.John "David A. Streight" wrote: I just ordered some back issues and paid with PayPal (before you guysstarted questioning the viability of the mag and site!!!). PayPal seems tothink the site is active and I noticed that the copywrite has changed tolist 2001 now as well. Sure hope I see some magazines for my money... David A. Streight from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Aug 31 20:25:00 2001 f811OxZ20117 Subject: Re: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! In a message dated 08/31/2001 12:54:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, avyoung@iinet.net.au writes: Tony, very good. I like the way you explained the stressgraphs, etc., using a diving board. But, in my case, if the divingboard breaks, what do I do, I can't swim. All kidding aside, I think it was very good! Dave L http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from DCURTIS@satx.rr.com Fri Aug 31 20:30:22 2001 f811ULZ20506 f811c3XD011771;Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:38:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine I ordered all the back issues of Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine and paid by PayPal.Yes, I did get the magazines. Darrin CurtisSan Antonio TX ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine I just ordered some back issues and paid with PayPal (before you guysstarted questioning the viability of the mag and site!!!). PayPal seemstothink the site is active and I noticed that the copywrite has changed tolist 2001 now as well. Sure hope I see some magazines for my money... David A. Streight from bamboorods@saber.net Fri Aug 31 20:30:42 2001 f811UfZ20583 Subject: Yes, the Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine has a current website This is a multi-part message in MIME format. BFRM is on the net at http://www.thebambooflyrod.com/ It looks current =based on a Winter 2000 magazine offered for sale, as well as a 2001 =copywrite. Hence my question: Has anyone seen this magazine at a fly =shop?Regards,Chris It looks current based on a Winter 2000 magazine offered for sale, as = a fly shop?Regards,Chris from bamboorods@saber.net Fri Aug 31 20:31:33 2001 f811VWZ20810 Subject: And This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Ralph is also soliciting help for a 2002 symposion. That is pretty =current. Ralph is also soliciting help for a = from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Aug 31 20:35:29 2001 f811ZSZ21255 (authenticated) Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:28:24 -0700 Rod Makers List Serve Subject: Re: Rod Stress Graphs--Discertation length reply!!!! Wow Tony, I acutally understand what you're trying to say!! I must be spendingwaaayyyy too much time fooling with both computers and bamboo rods. Thanks for taking the time to give the explanation. Harry Tony Young wrote: There may be people around who can use stress curves in a major way todevelop tapers but for the most part the use of them is to look at them asif they are tools for defining the character of the rod. It's prettytricky to look at a set of taper numbers and know if the rod is parabolic --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Aug 31 20:36:46 2001 f811akZ21457 (authenticated) Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:29:55 -0700 Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine David, Good luck on your purchase, but I'll be surprised if you see any magazines.Not to pick on you in any way, but this might be a good time to encouragenewcomers to the list to at least scan the archives for subjects thatinterestthem. Now that we have a new BFRM thread started, I'm just hopeful we willnotstart another GG or TA thread! Welcome to the list, David. You'll find lots of information here. Some ofit is good. All of it is worth at least as much as you pay for it. Heck some ofthe information is worth twice what it costs! All joking aside, this list hasbecome a big part of the daily routines of a few hundred pretty good souls. Gladto have you aboard. Harry "David A. Streight" wrote: Sure hope I see some magazines for my money... --"Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing..."-- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Aug 31 21:33:46 2001 f812XjZ23096 Subject: Re: Stress graphs/help! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. I'm confused about all this stress graph stuff.Are you guys trying to figure out when a rod will breakor do you think that knowing where it will break will some how allow you =to make a rod that will cast better.If that is the case, why don't we just have one taper with a maximumstrength to failure rate? Such as, thin per station that wont allow =failure.I think that even if you come up with the perfect taper or rod the next =guy down the line will not like the way it casts to him, so it then =becomes a not so perfect taper. Am I looking at it wrong? Or is all the =stress graph stuff just taking apart the machine to see how the machine =works.(Sort of a back engineering).Tony MillerThe half a** astronaut BODY {BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} I'm confused about all this stress graph stuff.Are you guys trying to figure out when a rod will breakor do you think that knowing where it will break will some how = make a rod that will cast better.If that is the case, why don't we just have one taper with a =maximumstrength to failure rate? Such as, thin per station that wont allow = failure.I think that even if you come up with the perfect taper or rod the = down the line will not like the way it casts to him, so it then becomes = just taking apart the machine to see how the machine works.(Sort of a = engineering).Tony MillerThe half a** astronautwww.homestead.com/= from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Aug 31 22:04:27 2001 f8134PZ24353 Subject: Re: Steam bending rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Onis,all I know about steam is it's dangerous at normal atmospheric pressure and bloody dangerous the more pressure it's under. I've read steam is actually invisible and what you see is water vapor being transported by it, apparently the more pressure the steam is under the less you see it so I guess high pressure steam carries very little water so that would be dry. Steam made at 1 atmosphere is at the other end of the scale, is visible so I guess it's carrying a lot of water and is wet. Water boils at 100c at sea level and less so the higher up you go. Once the water boils it can't get any hotter unless it's under pressure like in a pressure cooker or boiler so as long as you boil without pressure the steam would be wet. An extra bonus of not using pressure is you wont be creating a bomb. Tony At 03:55 PM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Then I made dry steam? What's wet steam? Made at atmospheric pressure? High (above 100 degree C) would be made by heating steammade at normal atmospheric pressure? And steam made this way at lets say,200 degree C, would have different properties from 200 degree C steam generated under pressure? Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote:I've never tried to make "dry" steam but I think it's what you'd get if the steam was made under pressure any greater than normal atmosphericpressure. Tony At 12:44 PM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Ok, I'll show my ignorance! What's the difference between "dry" and "wet"steam? The method I was working with is the relationship betweenpressureand boiling point. It seemed plenty "wet"! By heating water in a closedccntainer, the water initially boils at the atmospheric pressure. Byrestricting the escaping steam, the pressure in the container willincrease raising the boiling point/steam temperature. By monitoring thepressure, you control the temperature. I felt the system became to slowand cumbersom and downright dangerous for higher pressure andtemperature. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote:I know bamboo isn't wood but when steam bending wood what you wantis WETsteam, dry steam isn't very good. May not be an issue with bambooespecially in the dimensions were using but maybe worth thinking about Tony At 10:40 AM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Here's what I did. I bought a Presto pressure cooker and made anattachment to mount in place of the steam control on the pot. Myreasoning was the higher the pressure, the higher the steamtemperature. The attachment had a chamber 3" long by 3/4" indiameterthat allowed the node area to be steamed. I had a pressure guagemountedon the attachment so I could monitor the pressure. I ran the thing at20lb. of pressure. I tested it on several lots of bamboo and in the enddeemed it a failure. When all was said and done, the hot air gun wasfaster and easier to use. SWMBO is now using the pot to cook beansand Ibought a better hot air gun. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 31 23:14:24 2001 f814ENZ26743 Subject: Re: Steam bending Hi Tony. That's what threw me. Actually, steam is steam. It is just the gaseous state of water. As a gas, it is colorless and odorless. It's temperature is what makes it so dangerous. As you say, even at normal boiling it can cause some really bad burns. However it looked like it might provide a way to straighten and press nodes better. Unfortunately, it looked to me like it needed a temperature of 300F or better and at that temperature, I really didn't want to mess with the (as you said) potential bomb. Heating steam at normal atmospheric pressure gets around the bomb but comp[licates the logistics so I dropped it. Best regartds,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 11:08 AM 9/1/01 +0800, Tony Young wrote:Onis,all I know about steam is it's dangerous at normal atmospheric pressure and bloody dangerous the more pressure it's under. I've read steam is actually invisible and what you see is water vapor being transported by it, apparently the more pressure the steam is under the less you see it so I guess high pressure steam carries very little water so that would be dry. Steam made at 1 atmosphere is at the other end of the scale, is visible so I guess it's carrying a lot of water and is wet. Water boils at 100c at sea level and less so the higher up you go. Once the water boils it can't get any hotter unless it's under pressure like in a pressure cooker or boiler so as long as you boil without pressure the steam would be wet. An extra bonus of not using pressure is you wont be creating a bomb. Tony At 03:55 PM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Then I made dry steam? What's wet steam? Made at atmospheric pressure? High (above 100 degree C) would be made by heating steammade at normal atmospheric pressure? And steam made this way at lets say,200 degree C, would have different properties from 200 degree C steam generated under pressure? Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote:I've never tried to make "dry" steam but I think it's what you'd get if the steam was made under pressure any greater than normalatmospheric pressure. Tony At 12:44 PM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Ok, I'll show my ignorance! What's the difference between "dry" and"wet"steam? The method I was working with is the relationship betweenpressureand boiling point. It seemed plenty "wet"! By heating water in a closedccntainer, the water initially boils at the atmospheric pressure. Byrestricting the escaping steam, the pressure in the container willincrease raising the boiling point/steam temperature. By monitoring thepressure, you control the temperature. I felt the system became toslowand cumbersom and downright dangerous for higher pressure andtemperature. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote:I know bamboo isn't wood but when steam bending wood what youwant is WETsteam, dry steam isn't very good. May not be an issue with bambooespecially in the dimensions were using but maybe worth thinking about Tony At 10:40 AM 8/31/01 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Here's what I did. I bought a Presto pressure cooker and made anattachment to mount in place of the steam control on the pot. Myreasoning was the higher the pressure, the higher the steamtemperature. The attachment had a chamber 3" long by 3/4" indiameterthat allowed the node area to be steamed. I had a pressure guagemountedon the attachment so I could monitor the pressure. I ran the thing at20lb. of pressure. I tested it on several lots of bamboo and in the enddeemed it a failure. When all was said and done, the hot air gun wasfaster and easier to use. SWMBO is now using the pot to cook beansand Ibought a better hot air gun. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/