from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Oct 8 08:23:54 2001 f98DNr412693 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:23:53 -0500 (authenticated) Mon, 8 Oct 2001 06:23:37 -0700 Subject: Re: Peter Hayes --------------77B473D0BE6E58015DAB5CA1 Peter, Funny you should win converts, or at least quiet bamboocritics, with a Payne 101. Those Sage rods I mentioned in apost last evening were the SLT series. They are a mediumbrown, wrapped brown and gold in a Payne-like scheme. My friend Russell was outside casting one of my Payne101's. One of his pals was standing a few feet away castinga Sage SLT 9' 4 weight. As Russell was thoroughly testingmy rod, his partner started to notice the tight loops andquick response. Soon both of them, along with a thirdgentleman, were enjoying the pleasures of cane rods. What was really fun was putting that same 101 in thehands of Custom Rod Builders Guild Board Member Don Morton.Don is notoriously critical of all bamboo rods. He saysnone of 'em cast worth a flip. Though I didn't convert himto cane, I did get him to admit that the Payne 101 was adamn fine rod. Harry Peter McKean wrote: Thought that you might be interested to see this. I lent acouple of rods to Peter Hayes on Sunday to play with. Idon't know if you know of Peter, but he is an Australiandistance and accuracy casting champion, a member of asuccessful Australian World Championship Team, and runs avery successful guiding business here, as well as asuccession of casting clinics. Peter habitually refers tobamboo rods as "Dirty old wooden rods", but seems to havebeen favourably influenced by the Payne 101. Peter THEATTACHMENT IS OK -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------77B473D0BE6E58015DAB5CA1 Peter, wrapped brown and gold in a Payne-like scheme. Payne them, along with a third gentleman, were enjoying the pleasures of canerods. Don to admit that the Payne 101 was a damn fine rod. Peter McKean wrote: Thoughtthat you might be interested to see this. I lent a couple of rods to PeterHayes on Sunday to play with. I don't know if you know of Peter, but heis an Australian distance and accuracy casting champion, a member of asuccessful Australian World Championship Team, and runs a very successfulguiding business here, as well as a succession of casting habitually refers to bamboo rods as "Dirty old wooden rods", but seemsto have been favourably influenced by the Payne ATTACHMENT IS OK -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------77B473D0BE6E58015DAB5CA1-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 8 08:40:11 2001 f98DeA413596 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:40:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content Ron,thanks for the tips on what to read but I have found the more "rodmaking" Iread the more confused I get! I found Garrison heavy going and I wouldnever have made a rod if I had stuck to his recipe! from what I gather, the most recent "how to books" contain even moretheorizing and technicalness.I am not a research scientist, but then again, I do not need to know themolecular make up of horse shit to recognize it when I smell it!Simply, Terry Ron Grantham wrote: Sorry, I should have said that Milward's research included discussionswith Dr. Iain Taylor, Professor of Botany, and Douglas Justice, M.Sc.,Curator of Collections and Research Scientist, both at the University ofBritish Columbia. They're probably educated enough.You might also want to take a look at pages 4 & 5, The Planing Form,Issue Number 66, Nov/Dec 2000 for my heat treating test.Ron ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 6:25 PMSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content I think we must be careful about using the word research because most ofusdo not have the education, training or equipment to carry out meaningfulresearch.The best us basement technologist can expect is to try differenttechniques,whether it be time/temp and/or apparatus and to note the results and usewhat we find to be a benefit.I have dragged out an old Planing Form (1990) and an interesting articlewriten by Don Andersen and his experiments on heat treating. He detailedhismethod and results and what he thought was the best time/temp withoutmentioning what was happening at the molecular level!Thems were simple days!Terry,I'll scan you a copy Adam.Ron Grantham wrote: Bill -You are quite correct. BTW - according to Bob Milward's research, yourso called "matrix" is known as sclerenchyma.One of my rods was being used by an experienced steelheader who later"lost" the rod in a northern British Columbia river while trying a very difficult wade, just above a canyon. His feet were swept out frombeneath him and he had to release the rod and wading staff in order that he could swim to shore, or else drown.The rod was found a month later, one mile downstream, having tumbledthrough a canyon and three sets of rapids. It was totally saturated with water, and the varnish and bright metal parts were scoured by sand andgravel.Three months later the rod had dried out and the action was as good asnew. I built a replacement and compared it with the original and therewas little difference, if any.No matter how you apply the varnish, dipping being the best, it willstill allow moisture to penetrate through to the bamboo, however slowly. Proper baking to eliminate the "free" water is the best we can do,considering that we are dealing with a natural product. ----- Original Message -----From: WILLIAM HARMS Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 10:15 AMSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content All, It is good practice to remove as much moisture as is practical duringthebuilding stages and prior to varnishing. After that, however, itdoesn'tmatter very much what you try to do. Bamboo, like other natural, woody-fibered materials, will take on andrelease moisture constantly throughout the life of the rod, as thematerialis always trying to maintain (or reach) an equilibrium with whatever the theambient humidity may be. It really makes little sense to become "hyper" about super-drying ablankprior to varnishing, because even AFTER varnishing, the process ofmoistureabsorption and release will continue. Varnish (depending upon itsproperties) greatly retards this process, but nothing can eliminate it. I have tried before to explain what "water" is in bamboo, although that wasseveral years ago. Perhaps it's time again. There are two kinds ofmoisture in woody-fibered materials: "bound" water and "free" water.Theformer is found WITHIN the fibrous cell structures ("green" wood), while thelatter is found BETWEEN and AMIDST the fibrous cell structures. Inbamboo,there is a sort of "matrix" that separates the so-called power- fibersfromone another, and here is where the free moisture principally resides.(Another good reason for selecting cane with the densest layer of power fibers.) "Bound" moisture in bamboo can be driven out of the fibrous structuresthrough the aging and heat-treating process. Once bound moisture isdrivenout of the fibrous cell sturctures, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that itwillreturn, as those cell structures have become altered somehow, and theresinswithin will have become condensed and "solidified." That part of thedryingprocess can't really be reversed--much like scrambling an egg. "Free" moisture in bamboo can also be driven out through the processesofaging and heat-treating. But "free" moisture (whether in the form ofambient humidity or actual water), unfortunately, is also free tore- enterthe myriad "spaces" between fibrous cells. It enters most quickly bywicking through the ends of cane strips, but moisture also entersslowlyeven through the sides of the cane, and even through the protectivevarnish. In the end, perhaps the best advise is to be certain you are using thebestcane you can select, that your heat-treating has been adequate, that you build under conditions as free from humidity as possible, and that your varnish (or poly) has been built up to at least two good coats.Worryingmore than that is to worry about elements that can have little, if any, effect upon the rod's ability to do what it was designed to do. Bamboo, after that, will do what it will do. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Wayne Kifer" Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 11:13 AMSubject: Optimum moisture content Gentlemen,While it is understood that the moisture content of a finished rod will affect it's action as well as it's tendency to take a set, what is notclearis exactly what that moisture content should be. A search of thearchivesproduced discussions on this topic but I didn't find a consensus ofopinionon this matter. Moisture content can be readily controlled prior to and during the building process by storing the cane in a 90Ÿ drying room or cabinet maintained at the appropriate moisture content. This can be done with the use of a dehumidifier and/or a humidifier and/or a wet/dry bulb tomonitor the moisture content in the storage environment. Thisunderstood,what would be the optimum moisture content of a finished rod? All input would be appreciated.Thanks in advance for the help.Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 from caneman@clnk.com Mon Oct 8 08:48:47 2001 f98Dmk414160 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:48:46 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:13:41 -0500 Subject: Conclave and People Speaking of Cane Rods and converts... Those of you that missed the =Southern Council Conclave this past weekend, sure did miss a lot of fine =Canies from the list, there... Harry, Tony, Skip, John Scarborough, =Dave, Leo (and that other kid... can't remember his name, but I call him =Rumplestiltskin). I'm sure there were others, but I was rushing just to =see everyone, and sorry if I didn't mention your name in this mail. =Even saw my latest student there with his first blank (he did OK for a =rookie). Also lots of non-making fishers of cane! I was only there for =one day, and hated to leave, but there was 20 pounds of boiled shrimp =(corn and taters boiled with the shrimp), crawfish, smoked brisket & =Italian sausage, and several tubs of beer (and a few quart Mason jars of =some strange clear liquid) waiting for me in Southeast Oklahoma along =with friends who rode their bikes in from all over the south, and I had =to head back. Even though I did have a great time at the annual =Bar-B-Que, I sure wish it and the Conclave wouldn't have been on the =same weekend. There was ONE really good thing that happened at the =Conclave... Harry finally got rid of all those plastic rods! LOL Was great to see you all... looking forward to SRG in 3 weeks! Bob Speaking of Cane Rods and converts... Those of you = the Southern Council Conclave this past weekend, sure did miss a lot of = see everyone, and sorry if I didn't mention your name in this = saw my latest student there with his first blank (he did OK for a = and hated to leave, but there was 20 pounds of boiled shrimp (corn and = and several tubs of beer (and a few quart Mason jars of some strange = their bikes in from all over the south, and I had to head = good thing that happened at the Conclave... Harry finally got rid of all = plastic rods! LOL Was great to see you all... looking forward to SRG = weeks! Bob from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Oct 8 08:51:18 2001 f98DpH414458 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:51:17 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Dickerson favor?? Hi all,hope everyone (Canadian) is enjoying their long Thanksgiving weekend.I have a favor to ask of the list could someone who has a scanner andacopy of "Dickerson, The man and his rods" scan the cover and e-mail it to meOFF LISTplease. I'm looking for a high quality scan at about actual size (of the book)orabove 5"x 7" type size if its a large book, 200 to 300 dpi as a jpg. I will postassoon as someone sends it so everybody isn't wasting time.TIA,Shawn from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Mon Oct 8 10:05:01 2001 f98F4x418285 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:05:00 -0500 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:04:58 -0700 Subject: Delaware.... Hi all, I will be working in Dover, Delaware through January and wonder if any =rodmakers/flyfishers are in the area...? thanks,losey Hi all, I will be working in Dover, Delaware = January and wonder if any rodmakers/flyfishers are in the =area...? thanks,losey from rextutor@about.com Mon Oct 8 10:06:59 2001 f98F6w418602 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:06:58 -0500 (NPlex 5.5.029) 2001 08:00:11 -0700 Subject: Heddon Question I am looking for specific researched restore info on a heddon rod. I have Micheal Sinclairs handbook on rod restoration. I know he has a Heddon book. Does this book have specifics to models like the restoration handbook ? Does it mention type of stripper and other components ? silk color ? Has anyone heard of a another resource or book on verified specifics on heddon rods ?TIA Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com from bob@downandacross.com Mon Oct 8 10:11:49 2001 f98FBm419192 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:11:48 -0500 Subject: RE: Dickerson favor?? Try Stein's website. There is a pic there. If that is not good, I could scan fishing).Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Dickerson favor?? Hi all,hope everyone (Canadian) is enjoying their long Thanksgivingweekend.I have a favor to ask of the list could someone who has a scannerand acopy of "Dickerson, The man and his rods" scan the cover and e-mail it to meOFF LISTplease. I'm looking for a high quality scan at about actual size (of thebook) orabove 5"x 7" type size if its a large book, 200 to 300 dpi as a jpg. I willpost assoon as someone sends it so everybody isn't wasting time.TIA,Shawn from bob@downandacross.com Mon Oct 8 10:16:32 2001 f98FGV419624 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:16:31 -0500 Oct 2001 11:17:03 -0400 Subject: Dickerson cover from Stein's site http://www.classicbambooflyrods.com/Full_size_book.html Bob Maulucci 218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716- 867-0523 cellularhttp://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com from Welafong@aol.com Mon Oct 8 11:09:40 2001 f98G9d423234 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:09:39 -0500 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:09:31 -0400 Subject: (no subject) does anyone have bob milward e-mail address thank you does anyone have bobmilward e-mail address from bob@downandacross.com Mon Oct 8 12:58:28 2001 f98HwQ429154 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:58:26 -0500 Subject: RE: Milward e-mail bob milward does not have one that I know of.Bob Maulucci-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: (no subject) does anyone have bob milward e-mail address thank you milward does not have one that I know of. Maulucci Welafong@aol.comSent: Monday, October 08, 2001 = you from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Oct 8 13:05:51 2001 f98I5o429657 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:05:51 -0500 (authenticated) Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:05:41 -0700 Subject: Re: (no subject) --------------DE140280CC2818BD8D0BA903 Welafong@aol.com wrote: does anyone have bob milward e-mail address thank you I don't think Bob does the email thing...Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------DE140280CC2818BD8D0BA903 Welafong@aol.com wrote: anyone have bob milward e-mail address thank you I don't think Bob does the email thing... --Harry Boyd --------------DE140280CC2818BD8D0BA903-- from jbbamboo47@yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 15:11:18 2001 f98KBH405465 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:11:17 -0500 Mon, 08 Oct 2001 13:11:20 PDT Subject: taper anyone have ataper for garrison 6-6ft rod __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just$8.95/month.http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 from ttalsma@macatawa.org Mon Oct 8 15:14:04 2001 f98KE3405839 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:14:03 -0500 id ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:08:07 -0400 id TH24NLP4; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:08:05 -0400 Subject: Tip & Source Archive All, I've added a few tips to the archive. Also, I've added a TON of sourcesto the source listing. Check it out and give me some feedback! Ihaven't gotten through all of my searches, so I'll be adding morelater. Also, please let me know if I need to add any categories. Comeon guys (and gals), help me out. I've only heard from a few of you sofar.-- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htm genealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm >Fromatlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 15:16:48 2001 Received: from f98KGl406074 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 References:Subject: Re: Warning/Mark's reply Date: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Tony Millet? I dont know anyTony Millet. Sounds like a nice guy though...hehe ----- Original Message ---- - ; Sent: Monday,October 08, 2001 12:58 AM Subject: Re: Warning/Mark's reply In a message dated 10/7/01 8:04:30 PM Central Daylight Time,atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: foot in his mouth with the mob of rodbuilders chasing him with hanging ropes and pitch forks. That one would be Tony Miller...LOL Arrrgh, I tried to change the background and couldn't! Anyhooo! Ya Know,this whole mistaken identity thing is easy to do. Why? because we almostnever "really" meet. I have MET Tony Millet, gone fishing with him (Yes I am sure this time!) The rest of you guys I "KNOW" from your e-mails but nofaces. Darn shame in one way, but really great in others. Heck, Where else could I meet and speak with people from Austrailia, England, Israel, Canada and on and on! Even my DDAD finally got a 'puter! I think the sun may godark next! mark from ttalsma@macatawa.org Mon Oct 8 15:18:05 2001 f98KI4406225 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:18:04 -0500 id ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:12:12 -0400 id TH24NLP8; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:12:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Tip & Source Archive Whoops, The address is in my signature. Todd Talsma wrote: All, I've added a few tips to the archive. Also, I've added a TON of sourcesto the source listing. Check it out and give me some feedback! Ihaven't gotten through all of my searches, so I'll be adding morelater. Also, please let me know if I need to add any categories. Comeon guys (and gals), help me out. I've only heard from a few of you sofar.--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htm genealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm >Fromjbbamboo47@yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 15:29:16 2001 Received: from f98KTF407124 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 Received: from [141.210.14.241] by web11704.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Oct rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN anyone have a taper forgarrison model 212__________________________________________________ Do YouYahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just$8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 >Fromdmanders@telusplanet.net Mon Oct 8 15:37:34 2001 Received: from priv- f98KbX407955 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 02:38:40 - , "Adam Vigil" From: Don &Sandy Andersen Subject: Re: What is heattreating for? Cc: , , References: dmanders@telusplanet.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Bill,After my heat treating experiments some years ago I was just plainconfused. from the results there seemed to be no real logical answer.Certainly one strip didn't get a whole lot better than others. And if I canremember right, the untreated test strip fell into about the middle of thepack. Do I heat treat - Yes - no reason why - Certainly others are convincedof the advantages. Just gotta see the experiments they went through todetermine the validity of their claims. Still, there is enough ballyhoo not toignore the fact that there might just be something to the whole heattreatment thing. Till someone comes up with a reason, I guess on this one Iflow with the pack. regards, Don At 09:01 AM 10/8/01 -0400, WILLIAMHARMS wrote: Tony, Complicating our uncertainties on the issue of heat-treating, I would addthat none of my rods have undergone heat-treating. Nor did any of thosethat were built by Vince Marinaro. I can't report on all the rods I have built since the 1970s, because theyare dispersed all over the place. But of those I know of, none has taken aset that is any different from heat-treated rods that have also seen harduse. A couple of my rods from the '70s I still use regularly, and even theyare still relatively straight (as are all of Vince's rods). I own an oven, but I have never used it. This is not because I am in anyway opposed to heat-treating, but only because I haven't become convincedofthe need for it. I am certainly open to more information, but on theevidence of the many rods I have built, heat-treating doesn't seem tomatter. I should add at this point, however, that I do take considerable care toheat- straighten all my strips prior to (and even during) planing--removingboth the kinks in the nodes and also the long sweeps between. So, it ispossible that this may have the same practical effect as a more methodicalregimen of heat-treating. Additionally, in the past five years I have begun to lightly flame all myculms prior to splitting. This, too (in addition to straightening), maycombine to produce the same effect as might an oven. "I just don't know" would have to describe my present state of mind. In anycase, it appears to me that all the dogma we hear on one side and the otherjust may not be as urgent as the various proponents would have us think.More accurate on the benefits of heat-treating, perhaps, would simply be toconclude for the present: "Well, it all depends... ." I think we stilldon't really understand much of this with the certainty we might claim. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:59 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? Sorry, pushed the send before I finished.What I wanted to say was Thanks Terry, I agree moisture will re enter therod after heat treating but something else is going on too. There are anawful lot of heat treated varnished rods kicking about that don't have sets and work pretty well.I understand you saying impregnated rods will handle really bad moist/wetconditions but so will a varnished rod during fishing and you have toassume a certain amount of care is taken after fishing like not putting the rod into a wet sleeve and thrown into a boat's bilge for eg.I don't understand why there seems to be something happening after heattreating but observation does suggest it. Tony from jvswan@earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 15:53:15 2001 f98KrE411742 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:53:14 -0500 (63.225.232.210) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Subject: Re: Tip & Source Archive Todd, The web site looks great. You certainly have compiled a great list ofsources. I've bookmarked it, and will be back before long. One thing I would like to see on this site, though, is a Contraptionssection. Is that possible? We could post peoples Frankenstein tools.Binders, drip tubes, ovens, what have you. I found it really invaluablewhen I was able to look at a drawing instead of try to figure it out from aconversation. Anyway, I would be happy to reproduce in line art any handdrawn illustrations along with the comments that people would like to sendin. My first suggestion would be Bob Milward's binder, if he is agreeable.I would also like to see the Medved beveler and a "drip," not dip, tubedesign. As I say, if anyone would like to contribute these suggestions, Iwould be happy to help out and turn them into line art drawings that may bea little easier to read and print. Good job, Todd. I, for one, appreciate the effort. Jason Swan On 10/8/01 2:11 PM, "Todd Talsma" wrote: All, I've added a few tips to the archive. Also, I've added a TON of sourcesto the source listing. Check it out and give me some feedback! Ihaven't gotten through all of my searches, so I'll be adding morelater. Also, please let me know if I need to add any categories. Comeon guys (and gals), help me out. I've only heard from a few of you sofar. from bob@downandacross.com Mon Oct 8 16:07:50 2001 f98L7n416032 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:07:49 -0500 Subject: RE: (no subject) That's probably why he builds so many rods and does so many experiments!Bob Maulucci-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 2:03 PM Subject: Re: (no subject) Welafong@aol.com wrote:does anyone have bob milward e-mail address thank you I don't think Bob does the email thing...Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church Maulucci BoydSent: Monday, October 08, 2001 2:03 Welafong@aol.comCc: = thank youI don't think Bob does the email thing... = from bob@downandacross.com Mon Oct 8 16:07:53 2001 f98L7q416053 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:07:52 -0500 Subject: RE: taper Garrison 212 8' Trout 14/64 ferrule, 4.4 tip guide. In thousandths from the0 point to 96"0 .0725 .08310 .10415 .12220 .13625 .14930 .16235 .17540 .18745 .20050 .21255 .22760 .23965 .25370 .26675 .28080 .29585 .330 (at 85.5")96 .340 Best regards, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: taper anyone have a taper for garrison model 212 __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just$8.95/month.http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 from dannyt@frisurf.no Mon Oct 8 16:13:18 2001 f98LDF417858 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:13:16 -0500 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 23:13:08 +0200(MET DST)User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: taper Here You go James..................danny http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/garrison/g193.html from dannyt@frisurf.no Mon Oct 8 16:14:24 2001 f98LEM418338 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:14:22 -0500 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 23:14:16 +0200(MET DST)User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: taper .....and here...............danny http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/garrison/g212.html and after You can try this: http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/ from caneman@clnk.com Mon Oct 8 16:32:27 2001 f98LWQ423534 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:32:26 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? OK, I heat treat and I did quite a bit of testing years ago to decide whattemps, what dwell time, etc... I've been hesitant to post this, because thiswas all done 10 years ago when a discussion between me and another makercame up about whether there were any real advantages to heat treating, andsince I didn't keep the numbers, and back then, there was no reason to, Ijust stuck with what I found gave the best (or what in my opinion the bestqualities were) and stayed there.This all occurred when I worked for Owens Corning Corp. We had someneat little toys in our binder lab and QC lab that I played with in my sparetime. One was an extremely accurate electric oven and I used it to heattreat strips at different temps and for different times. I also had acontrol group of strips from the same culm that were not heat treated. Ihad several strips, can't remember how many, but probably 10 or so of eachtemp/time combination and the same number of untreated strips. I doremember that all of the strips were about a foot long and each had a nodein it (also was a big disussion about whether nodes were the weakest part ofthe cane). Got then all treated and sorted then went to the QC lab... wehad a neat little toy there called an Instron. Boy, what a dandy. It wouldmeasure the breaking strength of any material that you could make a set ofjaws to hold. Made the jaws in our fab shop on the mill.In any case, I put half of the strips from each group on the Instron,mounting them end to end and wrote down the value at which they failed(Thiswas a massive machine and I think could have tested the shear strength of aPickup Truck if you could have figured out a way to mount it in the jaws). Ithen put the other half on and measured the value at which they would split(side to side... tedious mounting them, but got it done). What I found wasthat low temp, long dwell time was the worst of the group. The second worstwas the untreated strips. I really can't remember where all the othergroups fell except for two (wasn't important... I was just looking for thebest group as compared to the control group). Blonde strips treated at375-385 for 12 minutes were remarkable stronger in both directions thananyof the other strips and Flamed strips at the same temperature/timeperformedvery closely to the blonde strips. That was all I needed to know, andsomewhere along the way, the numbers just got thrown out with one of themany junkpiles I've cleaned out since.Now, I did NOT wait a few weeks for the moisture to re-enter and trythem again, so what Terry says may well be true, that once the moisturere-enters the cane, they will revert to the same characteristics asuntreated cane, but I do know that every since then, I've set my heattreating regimen according to those results and haven't had any problems atall with breakage or sets. And, like those that don't heat treat, I'llcontinue to do what I do until someone comes up with properly done research(hopefully with more varied groups than I had), done under correctconditions, that disproves what my "less than complete" experiment did.I'll be happy to do this again and record it all if someone has a$50,000 instron they can loan me for a few weeks! *S* Oh, and I'd need anoven like that sample oven in our binder lab... I'm sure we could pick upone like that for only the price of 20 or so fine fly rods. That is onething that makes my little test of years ago not so reliable, I did NOT usethe oven I use now, I used one that is more accurate than any of us have inour shops.Seriously, if someone has access to an Instron, I'd be more than happyto set up test conditions that would give you reliable results with theproper number of control and experimental groups. That would give me achance to put some of that education I paid for to use for something! *S* Ifeel sure that the entire list would be interested in seeing the finalresults, but beware, in order to do this right, it will take time, andmultiple tests with strips from a different culm on each test, allow formoisture re-entry and retest, etc., etc., etc... In other words, it would bea long row to hoe, but would definitely give answers to everyones concernsover heat treating.I do have to agree with Terry that the experiments we do ("me" includedin "we") are generally NOT sufficient to gather reliable results. First, inorder to gain reliable results, you must have control groups to compare yourexperimental groups to. Also, "feel" is not a good measure ofcharacteristics. We must have an instrument capable of making qualityreliable measurements for comparason and those type of instruments, suchasthe Instron, are generally extremely expensive. Finally, just a few isn'tenough. You must have enough of each sample to insure repeatability, enterresults in a database of some sort, even if it's only a spreadsheet, and getaverage performance for each set of samples. One flamed, one blonde, oneheat treated, one charcoaled, will not work... you would have to have 50flamed, 50 blonde, 50 at 300 deg/30 minutes, 50 at 300 for an hour, and soon and so on and so on. Research like this is very time consuming andcoming up with the equipment to do it would be VERY expensive.ONE LAST THING... when the Instron was torturing these strips pullingthem from end to end... not one of them broke at the node. Later,Bob ----- Original Message ----- ; "Adam Vigil" Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? Bill, After my heat treating experiments some years ago I was just plainconfused. from the results there seemed to be no real logical answer.Certainly one strip didn't get a whole lot better than others. And if I can remember right, the untreated test strip fell into about the middle of thepack.Do I heat treat - Yes - no reason why - Certainly others are convinced ofthe advantages. Just gotta see the experiments they went through todetermine the validity of their claims. Still, there is enough ballyhoo not to ignore the fact that there might just be something to the whole heattreatment thing.Till someone comes up with a reason, I guess on this one I flow with the pack. regards, Don At 09:01 AM 10/8/01 -0400, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Tony, Complicating our uncertainties on the issue of heat-treating, I would addthat none of my rods have undergone heat-treating. Nor did any ofthosethat were built by Vince Marinaro. I can't report on all the rods I have built since the 1970s, because theyare dispersed all over the place. But of those I know of, none has taken a set that is any different from heat-treated rods that have also seen harduse. A couple of my rods from the '70s I still use regularly, and even they are still relatively straight (as are all of Vince's rods). I own an oven, but I have never used it. This is not because I am in anyway opposed to heat-treating, but only because I haven't becomeconvinced of the need for it. I am certainly open to more information, but on theevidence of the many rods I have built, heat-treating doesn't seem tomatter. I should add at this point, however, that I do take considerable care toheat- straighten all my strips prior to (and even during) planing--removing both the kinks in the nodes and also the long sweeps between. So, it ispossible that this may have the same practical effect as a more methodical regimen of heat-treating. Additionally, in the past five years I have begun to lightly flame all myculms prior to splitting. This, too (in addition to straightening), maycombine to produce the same effect as might an oven. "I just don't know" would have to describe my present state of mind. In any case, it appears to me that all the dogma we hear on one side and the other just may not be as urgent as the various proponents would have us think.More accurate on the benefits of heat-treating, perhaps, would simply be to conclude for the present: "Well, it all depends... ." I think we stilldon't really understand much of this with the certainty we might claim. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:59 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? Sorry, pushed the send before I finished.What I wanted to say was Thanks Terry, I agree moisture will re enter the rod after heat treating but something else is going on too. There are an awful lot of heat treated varnished rods kicking about that don't have sets and work pretty well.I understand you saying impregnated rods will handle really bad moist/wet conditions but so will a varnished rod during fishing and you have toassume a certain amount of care is taken after fishing like not putting the rod into a wet sleeve and thrown into a boat's bilge for eg.I don't understand why there seems to be something happening afterheattreating but observation does suggest it. Tony from channer@frontier.net Mon Oct 8 18:11:43 2001 f98NBe417988 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:11:41 -0500 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:20:05 -0600 Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? Bob;Sounds like you covered everything that I'm interested in, thanks fordoing all the work for me! I have thought all along that the oldcompanies, such as Leeonard, Payne, Dickerson, et al, all heat treatedtheir rods, and they had the time, materials and motivation to do allthe testing, if they thought it was worth doing, then that's good enough Goes to show that if you want to know something, go to those whose nextmeal depends on it.John Bob Nunley wrote: OK, I heat treat and I did quite a bit of testing years ago to decide whattemps, what dwell time, etc... I've been hesitant to post this, because thiswas all done 10 years ago when a discussion between me and anothermakercame up about whether there were any real advantages to heat treating,andsince I didn't keep the numbers, and back then, there was no reason to, Ijust stuck with what I found gave the best (or what in my opinion the bestqualities were) and stayed there.This all occurred when I worked for Owens Corning Corp. We had someneat little toys in our binder lab and QC lab that I played with in my sparetime. One was an extremely accurate electric oven and I used it to heattreat strips at different temps and for different times. I also had acontrol group of strips from the same culm that were not heat treated. Ihad several strips, can't remember how many, but probably 10 or so ofeachtemp/time combination and the same number of untreated strips. I doremember that all of the strips were about a foot long and each had a nodein it (also was a big disussion about whether nodes were the weakest partofthe cane). Got then all treated and sorted then went to the QC lab... wehad a neat little toy there called an Instron. Boy, what a dandy. It would measure the breaking strength of any material that you could make a set ofjaws to hold. Made the jaws in our fab shop on the mill.In any case, I put half of the strips from each group on the Instron,mounting them end to end and wrote down the value at which they failed(Thiswas a massive machine and I think could have tested the shear strength ofaPickup Truck if you could have figured out a way to mount it in the jaws). Ithen put the other half on and measured the value at which they would split(side to side... tedious mounting them, but got it done). What I found wasthat low temp, long dwell time was the worst of the group. The secondworstwas the untreated strips. I really can't remember where all the othergroups fell except for two (wasn't important... I was just looking for thebest group as compared to the control group). Blonde strips treated at375-385 for 12 minutes were remarkable stronger in both directions thananyof the other strips and Flamed strips at the same temperature/timeperformedvery closely to the blonde strips. That was all I needed to know, andsomewhere along the way, the numbers just got thrown out with one of themany junkpiles I've cleaned out since.Now, I did NOT wait a few weeks for the moisture to re-enter and trythem again, so what Terry says may well be true, that once the moisturere-enters the cane, they will revert to the same characteristics asuntreated cane, but I do know that every since then, I've set my heattreating regimen according to those results and haven't had any problemsatall with breakage or sets. And, like those that don't heat treat, I'llcontinue to do what I do until someone comes up with properly doneresearch(hopefully with more varied groups than I had), done under correctconditions, that disproves what my "less than complete" experiment did.I'll be happy to do this again and record it all if someone has a$50,000 instron they can loan me for a few weeks! *S* Oh, and I'd need anoven like that sample oven in our binder lab... I'm sure we could pick upone like that for only the price of 20 or so fine fly rods. That is onething that makes my little test of years ago not so reliable, I did NOT usethe oven I use now, I used one that is more accurate than any of us have inour shops.Seriously, if someone has access to an Instron, I'd be more than happyto set up test conditions that would give you reliable results with theproper number of control and experimental groups. That would give me achance to put some of that education I paid for to use for something! *S* Ifeel sure that the entire list would be interested in seeing the finalresults, but beware, in order to do this right, it will take time, andmultiple tests with strips from a different culm on each test, allow formoisture re-entry and retest, etc., etc., etc... In other words, it would bea long row to hoe, but would definitely give answers to everyones concernsover heat treating.I do have to agree with Terry that the experiments we do ("me" includedin "we") are generally NOT sufficient to gather reliable results. First, inorder to gain reliable results, you must have control groups to compareyourexperimental groups to. Also, "feel" is not a good measure ofcharacteristics. We must have an instrument capable of making qualityreliable measurements for comparason and those type of instruments,such asthe Instron, are generally extremely expensive. Finally, just a few isn'tenough. You must have enough of each sample to insure repeatability,enterresults in a database of some sort, even if it's only a spreadsheet, and getaverage performance for each set of samples. One flamed, one blonde,oneheat treated, one charcoaled, will not work... you would have to have 50flamed, 50 blonde, 50 at 300 deg/30 minutes, 50 at 300 for an hour, andsoon and so on and so on. Research like this is very time consuming andcoming up with the equipment to do it would be VERY expensive.ONE LAST THING... when the Instron was torturing these strips pullingthem from end to end... not one of them broke at the node. Later,Bob ----- Original Message -----From: "Don & Sandy Andersen" ; "Adam Vigil" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 3:38 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? Bill, After my heat treating experiments some years ago I was just plainconfused. from the results there seemed to be no real logical answer.Certainly one strip didn't get a whole lot better than others. And if I can remember right, the untreated test strip fell into about the middle ofthepack.Do I heat treat - Yes - no reason why - Certainly others are convinced ofthe advantages. Just gotta see the experiments they went through todetermine the validity of their claims. Still, there is enough ballyhoo not to ignore the fact that there might just be something to the whole heattreatment thing.Till someone comes up with a reason, I guess on this one I flow with the pack. regards, Don At 09:01 AM 10/8/01 -0400, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Tony, Complicating our uncertainties on the issue of heat-treating, I would addthat none of my rods have undergone heat-treating. Nor did any ofthosethat were built by Vince Marinaro. I can't report on all the rods I have built since the 1970s, because theyare dispersed all over the place. But of those I know of, none has taken a set that is any different from heat-treated rods that have also seenharduse. A couple of my rods from the '70s I still use regularly, and even they are still relatively straight (as are all of Vince's rods). I own an oven, but I have never used it. This is not because I am in anyway opposed to heat-treating, but only because I haven't becomeconvinced of the need for it. I am certainly open to more information, but on theevidence of the many rods I have built, heat-treating doesn't seem tomatter. I should add at this point, however, that I do take considerable care toheat- straighten all my strips prior to (and even during) planing--removing both the kinks in the nodes and also the long sweeps between. So, it ispossible that this may have the same practical effect as a more methodical regimen of heat-treating. Additionally, in the past five years I have begun to lightly flame all myculms prior to splitting. This, too (in addition to straightening), maycombine to produce the same effect as might an oven. "I just don't know" would have to describe my present state of mind. In any case, it appears to me that all the dogma we hear on one side and the other just may not be as urgent as the various proponents would have usthink.More accurate on the benefits of heat-treating, perhaps, would simplybe to conclude for the present: "Well, it all depends... ." I think we stilldon't really understand much of this with the certainty we might claim. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:59 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? Sorry, pushed the send before I finished.What I wanted to say was Thanks Terry, I agree moisture will re enter the rod after heat treating but something else is going on too. There are an awful lot of heat treated varnished rods kicking about that don't have sets and work pretty well.I understand you saying impregnated rods will handle really bad moist/wet conditions but so will a varnished rod during fishing and you have toassume a certain amount of care is taken after fishing like notputting the rod into a wet sleeve and thrown into a boat's bilge for eg.I don't understand why there seems to be something happening afterheattreating but observation does suggest it. Tony from rodwrapp@swbell.net Mon Oct 8 18:25:47 2001 f98NPk421484 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:25:46 -0500 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Re: A new tip I dip my rods about every 6-12 hours and i have had no problems with orangepeel.. Thanks dave----- Original Message ----- From: taylor hogan Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 7:47 PMSubject: Re: A new tip I put dripping wet rod right into a drying cabinet warmed with a light bulb to90F, and never had a problem with orange peel. I have smoked a few fromdrips on the bulb, but thats a whole other story. I wonder what we dodifferent?----- Original Message ----- From: John Long Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 6:31 PMSubject: Re: A new tip I'd like to warn you about a using a drying chamber and Helmsman. Don'tput a wet rod into a warm or hot chamber because it will orange peel. Wait8-12 hrs. Just another voice of experience speaking here....... ----- Original Message -----From: jmpio@nhbm.com Subject: A new tip Came up with another tip that I wish someone had shared with me when Iwasstarting out (hell, I'm still just starting out). The tip is, for a betterfinish let your varnish fully dry between coats. My habit had always beento allow 24 hours or so between a coat and steelwooling (is that a verb?)and a new coat. Having had a very busy week, I allowed the last coat onthe current rod to cure for 5 days before taking up the rod again lastnight. I found that with the more fully cured varnish (I use Helmsman) itwas easier to slice off fuzzies and drips, the steel wool could cut moreevenly leavaing a smoother more satiny texture, and the next coat wentonmuch better over this smother more satiny texture. So cure thatvarnishbefore prepping for the next coat. Since I'm far too human to wait 5 days between every coat, I think I'llbuild a drying cabinet this weekend to get a better cure in a day or two. James M. Piotrowski have had ----- Original Message ----- From: taylor hogan Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 7:47 PMSubject: Re: A new tip I put dripping wet rod right into a drying cabinet warmed with a light bulb to 90F, and never had a problem with orange peel. I have smoked a few from drips on the bulb, but thats a whole other story. I wonder what we do different? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Long Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 6:31 PMSubject: Re: A new tip I'd like to warn you about a using a drying chamber and chamber ----- Original Message -----From: jmpio@nhbm.comSent: Friday, October 05, 200110:33 AM Subject: A new tip with me when I wasstarting out (hell, I'm still just starting so between a coat and steelwooling (is that a verb?)and a new current rod to cure for 5 days before taking up the rod again use Helmsman) itwas easier to slice off fuzzies and drips, the steelwool could cut moreevenly leavaing a smoother more satiny texture, andthe next coat went onmuch better over this smother more satiny coat.Since I'm far too human to wait 5 days between everycoat, I think I'llbuild a drying cabinet this weekend to get a better cure in a day or two.James M. Piotrowski from harms1@pa.net Mon Oct 8 18:29:16 2001 f98NTF422508 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:29:15 -0500 , Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? Bob, Good job, both as to the information you gathered and the caveats aboutfuture research. Under the circumstances, I can see why you might havebeenreluctant to share your experiment. We have all become pretty sceptical ofone another on this heat-treating issue. Everybody has a story to tell, andof course, each of them is "gospel" (well, of course, MY stories are,anyhow). I found myself in the midst of an interesting reaction as I read the resultsof your experiment. I was mainly interested to see just how I was going tovindicate MY method of building. It was easy. First, I "decided" that mymethod of heat-straightening is sufficient to qualify as heat- treating.That was ok for awhile, until I read that the flame-treated cane producedamong the best two of your experimental strips. So then I pitched my tentin THAT camp. And now I feel justified in concluding that only MY way isthe best. Interesting, huh? It just goes to show how vulnerable we are to our ownlittle predilections and prejudices. We convince ourselves that what wewant to see is what's really there. Sometimes I think that our "evidence"is a little like a bunch of guys sitting around a bar arguing about whichpickup is better, the Ford, the Dodge or the Chevy. I sure wish we had the time and the money to research these issues as theyreally deserve, but it's way beyond me. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? OK, I heat treat and I did quite a bit of testing years ago to decide whattemps, what dwell time, etc... I've been hesitant to post this, because this was all done 10 years ago when a discussion between me and anothermakercame up about whether there were any real advantages to heat treating,andsince I didn't keep the numbers, and back then, there was no reason to, Ijust stuck with what I found gave the best (or what in my opinion the bestqualities were) and stayed there.This all occurred when I worked for Owens Corning Corp. We had someneat little toys in our binder lab and QC lab that I played with in my spare time. One was an extremely accurate electric oven and I used it to heattreat strips at different temps and for different times. I also had acontrol group of strips from the same culm that were not heat treated. Ihad several strips, can't remember how many, but probably 10 or so ofeachtemp/time combination and the same number of untreated strips. I doremember that all of the strips were about a foot long and each had a nodein it (also was a big disussion about whether nodes were the weakest part of the cane). Got then all treated and sorted then went to the QC lab... wehad a neat little toy there called an Instron. Boy, what a dandy. It would measure the breaking strength of any material that you could make a setofjaws to hold. Made the jaws in our fab shop on the mill.In any case, I put half of the strips from each group on the Instron,mounting them end to end and wrote down the value at which they failed (This was a massive machine and I think could have tested the shear strength of a Pickup Truck if you could have figured out a way to mount it in the jaws). I then put the other half on and measured the value at which they would split (side to side... tedious mounting them, but got it done). What I found was that low temp, long dwell time was the worst of the group. The second worst was the untreated strips. I really can't remember where all the othergroups fell except for two (wasn't important... I was just looking for thebest group as compared to the control group). Blonde strips treated at375-385 for 12 minutes were remarkable stronger in both directions than any of the other strips and Flamed strips at the same temperature/time performed very closely to the blonde strips. That was all I needed to know, andsomewhere along the way, the numbers just got thrown out with one of themany junkpiles I've cleaned out since.Now, I did NOT wait a few weeks for the moisture to re-enter and trythem again, so what Terry says may well be true, that once the moisturere-enters the cane, they will revert to the same characteristics asuntreated cane, but I do know that every since then, I've set my heattreating regimen according to those results and haven't had any problems at all with breakage or sets. And, like those that don't heat treat, I'llcontinue to do what I do until someone comes up with properly done research (hopefully with more varied groups than I had), done under correctconditions, that disproves what my "less than complete" experiment did.I'll be happy to do this again and record it all if someone has a$50,000 instron they can loan me for a few weeks! *S* Oh, and I'd need anoven like that sample oven in our binder lab... I'm sure we could pick upone like that for only the price of 20 or so fine fly rods. That is onething that makes my little test of years ago not so reliable, I did NOT use the oven I use now, I used one that is more accurate than any of us have in our shops.Seriously, if someone has access to an Instron, I'd be more than happyto set up test conditions that would give you reliable results with theproper number of control and experimental groups. That would give me achance to put some of that education I paid for to use for something! *S* I feel sure that the entire list would be interested in seeing the finalresults, but beware, in order to do this right, it will take time, andmultiple tests with strips from a different culm on each test, allow formoisture re-entry and retest, etc., etc., etc... In other words, it would be a long row to hoe, but would definitely give answers to everyones concernsover heat treating.I do have to agree with Terry that the experiments we do ("me" included in "we") are generally NOT sufficient to gather reliable results. First, in order to gain reliable results, you must have control groups to compare your experimental groups to. Also, "feel" is not a good measure ofcharacteristics. We must have an instrument capable of making qualityreliable measurements for comparason and those type of instruments,such as the Instron, are generally extremely expensive. Finally, just a few isn'tenough. You must have enough of each sample to insure repeatability, enter results in a database of some sort, even if it's only a spreadsheet, and get average performance for each set of samples. One flamed, one blonde,oneheat treated, one charcoaled, will not work... you would have to have 50flamed, 50 blonde, 50 at 300 deg/30 minutes, 50 at 300 for an hour, andsoon and so on and so on. Research like this is very time consuming andcoming up with the equipment to do it would be VERY expensive.ONE LAST THING... when the Instron was torturing these strips pullingthem from end to end... not one of them broke at the node. Later,Bob ----- Original Message -----From: "Don & Sandy Andersen" ; "Adam Vigil" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 3:38 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? Bill, After my heat treating experiments some years ago I was just plainconfused. from the results there seemed to be no real logical answer.Certainly one strip didn't get a whole lot better than others. And if I can remember right, the untreated test strip fell into about the middle of the pack.Do I heat treat - Yes - no reason why - Certainly others are convinced of the advantages. Just gotta see the experiments they went through todetermine the validity of their claims. Still, there is enough ballyhoo not to ignore the fact that there might just be something to the whole heattreatment thing.Till someone comes up with a reason, I guess on this one I flow with the pack. regards, Don At 09:01 AM 10/8/01 -0400, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Tony, Complicating our uncertainties on the issue of heat-treating, I would add that none of my rods have undergone heat-treating. Nor did any of those that were built by Vince Marinaro. I can't report on all the rods I have built since the 1970s, because they are dispersed all over the place. But of those I know of, none has taken a set that is any different from heat-treated rods that have also seen hard use. A couple of my rods from the '70s I still use regularly, and even they are still relatively straight (as are all of Vince's rods). I own an oven, but I have never used it. This is not because I am in any way opposed to heat-treating, but only because I haven't become convinced of the need for it. I am certainly open to more information, but on theevidence of the many rods I have built, heat-treating doesn't seem tomatter. I should add at this point, however, that I do take considerable care to heat-straighten all my strips prior to (and even during) planing--removing both the kinks in the nodes and also the long sweeps between. So, it is possible that this may have the same practical effect as a more methodical regimen of heat-treating. Additionally, in the past five years I have begun to lightly flame all my culms prior to splitting. This, too (in addition to straightening), may combine to produce the same effect as might an oven. "I just don't know" would have to describe my present state of mind. In any case, it appears to me that all the dogma we hear on one side and the other just may not be as urgent as the various proponents would have us think. More accurate on the benefits of heat-treating, perhaps, would simply be to conclude for the present: "Well, it all depends... ." I think we stilldon't really understand much of this with the certainty we might claim. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:59 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? Sorry, pushed the send before I finished.What I wanted to say was Thanks Terry, I agree moisture will re enter the rod after heat treating but something else is going on too. There are an awful lot of heat treated varnished rods kicking about that don't have sets and work pretty well.I understand you saying impregnated rods will handle really bad moist/wet conditions but so will a varnished rod during fishing and you have toassume a certain amount of care is taken after fishing like not putting the rod into a wet sleeve and thrown into a boat's bilge for eg.I don't understand why there seems to be something happening after heat treating but observation does suggest it. Tony from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Oct 8 19:03:02 2001 f99030400492 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 19:03:00 -0500 Rodmakers Subject: Re: Tip & Source Archive If Larry's out there he may be able to help out (if he wanted) with a digital pic of an extraction contraption using a threaded rod and regular small motor. Larry's is a piece of art and mine is very Heath Robertson.I have a pic but it's an overall one of the whole scene with Larry showing it and not any help when it comes to seeing how it works but it may beuseful. Tony At 02:53 PM 10/8/01 -0600, Jason Swan wrote: Todd, The web site looks great. You certainly have compiled a great list ofsources. I've bookmarked it, and will be back before long. One thing I would like to see on this site, though, is a Contraptionssection. Is that possible? We could post peoples Frankenstein tools.Binders, drip tubes, ovens, what have you. I found it really invaluablewhen I was able to look at a drawing instead of try to figure it out from aconversation. Anyway, I would be happy to reproduce in line art any handdrawn illustrations along with the comments that people would like to sendin. My first suggestion would be Bob Milward's binder, if he is agreeable.I would also like to see the Medved beveler and a "drip," not dip, tubedesign. As I say, if anyone would like to contribute these suggestions, Iwould be happy to help out and turn them into line art drawings that may bea little easier to read and print. Good job, Todd. I, for one, appreciate the effort. Jason Swan On 10/8/01 2:11 PM, "Todd Talsma" wrote: All, I've added a few tips to the archive. Also, I've added a TON of sourcesto the source listing. Check it out and give me some feedback! Ihaven't gotten through all of my searches, so I'll be adding morelater. Also, please let me know if I need to add any categories. Comeon guys (and gals), help me out. I've only heard from a few of you sofar. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from rextutor@about.com Mon Oct 8 20:14:07 2001 f991E7415676 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:14:07 -0500 (NPlex 5.5.029) Subject: Re: Tip & Source Archive The tip and source archive is awsome .GREAT JOB !!!Sign up fora free About Email account at http://About.com from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Mon Oct 8 20:57:24 2001 f991vL418222 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:57:22 -0500 Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:56:15 +0800 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:56:15 +0800 Rodmakers Subject: RE: Carsten Congratulations Carsten, and thanks for posting the pic Danny. I've justreturned from a week of solid fishing which only resulted in one smallrainbow (13" - 14") I've already had a cry on Tony Young's shoulder aboutit so I should be back to normal soon : ) Stay luckyMike -----Original Message----- Subject: Carsten I know its against the rule, but at the moment I don`t have any web site touse, and the attachment is pretty small AND SAFE.Anyway I think You all will enjoy seeing our Danish friend Carsten with thefish of his life cought in Norway. Its at least 50cm and are taken on hisbeautyful "Force" later,danny;-) from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 8 21:22:24 2001 f992MN419039 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:22:23 -0500 (may be forged)) Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? Bill,now that is very, very interesting.If you glue up strips at the the average moisture content of, say 7% it willnot warp as much a heat treated strips glued up at 2%, right? The heattreatedrod will be at its straightest during the dry winter months, unless a finishcanbe applied to prevent the the cane reaching equilibrium.I can remember stripping down an old English rod and the rich Heat treatedcolour was in fact applied and scraping away left a very pale stick.Terry WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Tony, Complicating our uncertainties on the issue of heat-treating, I would addthat none of my rods have undergone heat-treating. Nor did any of thosethat were built by Vince Marinaro. I can't report on all the rods I have built since the 1970s, because theyare dispersed all over the place. But of those I know of, none has taken aset that is any different from heat-treated rods that have also seen harduse. A couple of my rods from the '70s I still use regularly, and even theyare still relatively straight (as are all of Vince's rods). I own an oven, but I have never used it. This is not because I am in anyway opposed to heat-treating, but only because I haven't become convincedofthe need for it. I am certainly open to more information, but on theevidence of the many rods I have built, heat-treating doesn't seem tomatter. I should add at this point, however, that I do take considerable care toheat- straighten all my strips prior to (and even during) planing--removingboth the kinks in the nodes and also the long sweeps between. So, it ispossible that this may have the same practical effect as a moremethodicalregimen of heat-treating. Additionally, in the past five years I have begun to lightly flame all myculms prior to splitting. This, too (in addition to straightening), maycombine to produce the same effect as might an oven. "I just don't know" would have to describe my present state of mind. In anycase, it appears to me that all the dogma we hear on one side and theotherjust may not be as urgent as the various proponents would have us think.More accurate on the benefits of heat-treating, perhaps, would simply betoconclude for the present: "Well, it all depends... ." I think we stilldon't really understand much of this with the certainty we might claim. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:59 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? Sorry, pushed the send before I finished.What I wanted to say was Thanks Terry, I agree moisture will re entertherod after heat treating but something else is going on too. There are anawful lot of heat treated varnished rods kicking about that don't have sets and work pretty well.I understand you saying impregnated rods will handle really badmoist/wetconditions but so will a varnished rod during fishing and you have toassume a certain amount of care is taken after fishing like not putting the rod into a wet sleeve and thrown into a boat's bilge for eg.I don't understand why there seems to be something happening afterheattreating but observation does suggest it. Tony from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Mon Oct 8 21:33:37 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f992Xa419577 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:33:36 -0500 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:33:40 -0500 Subject: RE: WARNING non rodmaking apropos our flap with Trepidation Actually I'm trying to get my wife to the person my dog thinks I am when hetries to hump my leg. But let's not go there. Tony is right, this is a really fine group. I participate in a lot of listsand this is the best in remembering we're here to help one another. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: WARNING non rodmaking apropos our flap with Trepidation I think we are all trying to be the person our dog thinks we are.Dave----- Original Message----- Subject: WARNING non rodmaking apropos our flap with Trepidation I wonder if anybody has noticed this list is pretty friendly? I know thereare the occasional dummy spits but it's a pretty good place to betemporally speaking.I'll answer my own question and say yes this has been noticed and I'll alsoventure a reason for this. I think it's not the subject matter though wemay like to believe that is the case but I believe the reason forfriendliness is we all expect to some day meet each other so we give eachother the respect we all deserve as human beings in a small group. Tony At 10:59 PM 10/6/01 -0400, Art Port wrote: Guys,I got this a few days ago and didn't think the use of bandwidth would be right, but the longer I thought about it the more I thought I should offerit for your enjoyment after all the c**p we dealt with last month. I thinkit says a lot more about the way Canadians and Americans get along thanthose other interchanges. If I've wasted your time, I apologize, but I hope you'll be uplifted instead.Art*************************************************************************/ from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Mon Oct 8 21:33:47 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f992Xk419626 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:33:46 -0500 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:33:50 -0500 Subject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content I should probably keep quiet, but.... from all I've seen and read, there aretwo purposes for heat treating. One is to remove moisture. But that istemporary to some degree. By far the more important purpose is to actuallychange the structure of the bamboo so that the parts of the bamboo thataremost critical to a rod's action are no longer made limp when exposed towater. Milward's book suggests this occurs when the cane (not just thesurface) darkens slightly. Too much darkening can actually damage thefibers(though perhapd not critically if not taken too far) This doesn't mean nowater is absorbed by such a rod, though I believe most well designed testsshow it's less than for untreated bamboo. But it means that whatever wateris absorbed after tempering, it doesn't change the action very much, if atall. I don't think this is much of a mystery. Other listers have commented thatit's well known that woods change internal structure when heat tempered.Milward's book goes a long way toward proving it for bambboo. And we allknow two critical facts - no finish can keep a rod from absorbing watereventually (and we even have heard extreme examples like rods recoveredafter being awash for weeks) and most rods in spite of this don't varyperceptibly when they are fished on a humid Midwestern pond and then a highdry mountain stream, after plenty of time to gradually accommodate toambient humidity. Granted, there are rods that are "heat treated" but not enough to changethestructure. These are the ones that act like wet noodles when wet and thenbehave when dry. No mystery in that - it simply means they were neveradequately tempered to the extent that the internal structure changed. I don't mean to sound like there's no mystery to any of this, but the basicpractical question of why we do it and what we're trying to accomplish is, Ibelieve, fairly well answered. Flame away! Barry -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm sorry I have to put words in your mouth with this statement.To reiterate, what exactly, is heat treating for? For the statedobjectives that I have heard, it doesn't really sound like an option. Ifheat treating really does remove moisture and result in a stiffer cane,and a slight weight reduction, are you saying that there are rods tobuild out there where these characteristics are not desired or required?Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm not certain there is a better or worse way of doing all this it'sjust that the different methods give different results and you need to experiment and see what you like.Once you see what you like do it the same way every time, there are alot of methods you just need to choose one. Tony At 10:07 AM 10/7/01 -0700, Wayne Kifer wrote: My understanding is that we should definitely heat treat but I'm leaning toward a lengthily seasoning to slowly lower the moisture content to under 6%. from everything I've learned from the wisdom on the list this will create a stronger strip. The task would seem to be to control the reintroduction of moisture in the finished rod. The jury still seems to be out on how to accomplish this. At least those in the know aren't giving up their secrets. Wayne :^)----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:54 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Sure sounds like maybe we shouldn't be heat treating eh? Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu] On Behalf Of Wayne KiferSent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Fw: Optimum moisture content I would think it would be an indication of equal stresses, and accordingly strength, throughout the length of the strip. Definitely desirable. Wayne----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:32 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Do you think that the bending in a smoother curve would be desirable? Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu] On Behalf Of Coffey, Patrick WSent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:18 AM oandc@email.msn.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content there is a difference between air drying and kiln drying (heat treating). I have a piece of bamboo D. Holbrook gave me in 1970 that was never heat treated and it is just as stiff as the ones that I heat treat except it seems to bend in a smoother curve. My boss at the violin shop told me it was like making Jell-O in either a icebox or the oven, they both come out at Jell-O but are totally different in texture. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:48 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content This heat treating stuff really is a strange one isn't it? Terry says no matter what coating you use if the rod is left with a wet rag in a tube it'll become spaghetti. The US dept of Forrestry (or whatever it's name is) say heating wood in no way hardens it so even though spear points used by ancient cultures seem very hard after carbonising there isn't a scientific reason to expect this even though I've lived around people who do still live the old ways and their spear points _look_ and _feel_ harder than they were before carbonising them in fires and if the spear gets wet the point always seems to get hard again upon drying. Aboriginals of Australia have a reputation what canbe a savage place to live so if they've been carbonising spear points for 40,000 years I think it's worth noting. Then again you can drive the moisture out by vacuum or even steam. If you steam heat timber for bending you'll have a different texture to the wood after steaming it than before and if you use kiln dried timber it'll behave differently to naturaly dried timber. Using green wood is normallybest but in any case you usually don't get two chances at bending using steam. If you don't get it first time you'll normally break the laminate next time you try. You also notice that broken laminates that have been steamed have a different texture beyond simply raised grain, break differently (they will normally break along the grain in a more pronouncedmanner) and are drier than the sister laminates that have not been steamed. If you heat treat bamboo before planing as you normally would when making nodeless rods it's a _lot_ harder to plane than if you plane the bamboo "green" or even wet as you do when making the rod normally and this is thecase even if the bamboo is left for months after being heat treated which suggests to me heat treating does do something which is irreversible. It'sjust too difficult for me to believe the cells and chemicals making up thebamboo aren't permanently altered by heating so it would be veryinteresting indeed to compare drying by heat and vacuum as the vacuum wouldnot alter the chemicals or not in the say way though the cells would be ruptured.Just compare freeze dried ice cream you can buy for backpacking with what you'd get if you tried drying ice cream in an oven. It's a different operation. The bamboo does become useless when wet but once it dries again I'd think it would go back to the way it was after heat treating and not as it was before heat treating. As an aside, when a rod is impregnated is it done by vacuum followed pressurized then the addition of the media or pressurized with the media? Tony At 06:26 AM 10/7/01 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: A pressure chamber is of little value, what you need is a vacuum chamber. Driving whatever glop you prefer into the blank takes only about 10-15 minutes at 30"hg vacuum. That way the rod is not soaked through and it is not as heavy. I always tried to get in to about .006-.008" deep. As an aside the chamber would be an excellent way to run an experiment to see what percentage of the improvement due to heat treating can be attributed to the heating and polymerization and how much is due to the simple drying out of the cane. An hour or two in the vacuum tank will dry the cane out without heat. Hot dog! What a can of worms! A.J. From: "Wayne Kifer" Subject: Optimum moisture contentDate: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:14:09 -0700 I understand that the only way to prevent moisture gain in a rod would beto impregnate the glued sections prior to applying the finish. Exotic woods and other materials such as mastodon ivory, and dear and elk antler slabs used for knife handles are impregnated under pressure. Might not an acceptable result be obtained if the sections were dried to less than 6Ÿ moisture content and heated in a vacuum to expand the cell structure to enhance absorption of a sealing compound introduced into the vacuum chamber? A much less expensive setup to build than a pressure chamber I would think. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Oct 8 21:43:26 2001 f992hQ420317 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:43:26 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Dickerson favor?? Thanks everyone, got what I needed,Shawn Shawn Pineo wrote: Hi all,hope everyone (Canadian) is enjoying their long Thanksgiving weekend.I have a favor to ask of the list could someone who has a scanner and acopy of "Dickerson, The man and his rods" scan the cover and e-mail it tome OFF LISTplease. I'm looking for a high quality scan at about actual size (of the book)orabove 5"x 7" type size if its a large book, 200 to 300 dpi as a jpg. I willpost assoon as someone sends it so everybody isn't wasting time.TIA,Shawn from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 8 21:44:21 2001 f992iK420506 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:44:20 -0500 (may be forged)) for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:44:18 -0400 Subject: Santa Bin Laden? Help,Whenever Bin Laden's face appears on the tv my 2 year old grandsonpoints at the screen and excitedly says, "Santa, Santa".How should I handle this because he might be disappointed when henotices nxt month that jolly old St. Nick down at the mail is notcarring an AK47 ?Terry from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Oct 8 22:01:25 2001 f9931O421231 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:01:24 -0500 (authenticated) Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:01:08 -0700 Subject: Re: Santa Bin Laden? Terry, ROFLMAO!! Very good one! I have no ideas for you. Harry "T. Ackland" wrote: Help,Whenever Bin Laden's face appears on the tv my 2 year old grandsonpoints at the screen and excitedly says, "Santa, Santa".How should I handle this because he might be disappointed when henotices nxt month that jolly old St. Nick down at the mail is notcarring an AK47 ?Terry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from JNL123141@msn.com Mon Oct 8 22:41:58 2001 f993fv422247 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:41:57 -0500 Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:41:56 -0700 Subject: Heat treating. FILETIME=[57B67BD0:01C15074] Does anyone out there have access to a really good microscope? Why not c=ut some strips at a shallow angle (similar to a scarf joint) on two sides=and look at the fiber and fiber bonding cell structure before and after =heat treating at various times and temps? Maybe that would show some cel=lure structure/density changes and then check them again at various moist= Like Bob Nunley said, its easy to get crazy about this and eat up a lot o=f time. What a project for a botony grad student in a university setting= Just my $.02 worth. Incidently, I cook at 375 for 10-12 min. when I'm do=ing a blond rod- for whatever that info is worth. Doesanyone ou= s=trips at a shallow angle (similar to a scarf joint) on two sides and look= so= va= Nunley said, its easy to get crazy about this and eat up a lot of time.&= t 375 for 10-12 min. when I'm doing a blond rod- for whatever that info i= from flyfishr@istar.ca Tue Oct 9 01:03:40 2001 f9963d425579 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 01:03:39 -0500 helo=flyfishr) id 15qpzj-0000gE-00; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 02:03:59 -0400 Terry -As John Bokstrom often sez: the first thing you need to build bamboorods is a shovel for all the crap that's out there. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content Ron,thanks for the tips on what to read but I have found the more"rodmaking" Iread the more confused I get! I found Garrison heavy going and I wouldnever have made a rod if I had stuck to his recipe! from what I gather, the most recent "how to books" contain even more theorizing and technicalness.I am not a research scientist, but then again, I do not need to know themolecular make up of horse shit to recognize it when I smell it!Simply, Terry Ron Grantham wrote: Sorry, I should have said that Milward's research included discussionswith Dr. Iain Taylor, Professor of Botany, and Douglas Justice, M.Sc.,Curator of Collections and Research Scientist, both at the University of British Columbia. They're probably educated enough.You might also want to take a look at pages 4 & 5, The Planing Form,Issue Number 66, Nov/Dec 2000 for my heat treating test.Ron ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 6:25 PMSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content I think we must be careful about using the word research because most of usdo not have the education, training or equipment to carry out meaningful research.The best us basement technologist can expect is to try differenttechniques,whether it be time/temp and/or apparatus and to note the results and use what we find to be a benefit.I have dragged out an old Planing Form (1990) and an interesting article writen by Don Andersen and his experiments on heat treating. He detailed hismethod and results and what he thought was the best time/temp withoutmentioning what was happening at the molecular level!Thems were simple days!Terry,I'll scan you a copy Adam.Ron Grantham wrote: Bill -You are quite correct. BTW - according to Bob Milward's research, your so called "matrix" is known as sclerenchyma.One of my rods was being used by an experienced steelheader who later "lost" the rod in a northern British Columbia river while trying a very difficult wade, just above a canyon. His feet were swept out frombeneath him and he had to release the rod and wading staff in order that he could swim to shore, or else drown.The rod was found a month later, one mile downstream, having tumbledthrough a canyon and three sets of rapids. It was totally saturated with water, and the varnish and bright metal parts were scoured by sand and gravel.Three months later the rod had dried out and the action was as good as new. I built a replacement and compared it with the original and there was little difference, if any.No matter how you apply the varnish, dipping being the best, it willstill allow moisture to penetrate through to the bamboo, however slowly. Proper baking to eliminate the "free" water is the best we can do,considering that we are dealing with a natural product. ----- Original Message -----From: WILLIAM HARMS Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 10:15 AMSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content All, It is good practice to remove as much moisture as is practical during thebuilding stages and prior to varnishing. After that, however, itdoesn'tmatter very much what you try to do. Bamboo, like other natural, woody-fibered materials, will take on and release moisture constantly throughout the life of the rod, as thematerialis always trying to maintain (or reach) an equilibrium with whatever the theambient humidity may be. It really makes little sense to become "hyper" about super-drying ablankprior to varnishing, because even AFTER varnishing, the process ofmoistureabsorption and release will continue. Varnish (depending upon itsproperties) greatly retards this process, but nothing can eliminate it. I have tried before to explain what "water" is in bamboo, although that wasseveral years ago. Perhaps it's time again. There are two kinds ofmoisture in woody-fibered materials: "bound" water and "free" water.Theformer is found WITHIN the fibrous cell structures ("green" wood), while thelatter is found BETWEEN and AMIDST the fibrous cell structures. Inbamboo,there is a sort of "matrix" that separates the so-called power-fibers fromone another, and here is where the free moisture principally resides. (Another good reason for selecting cane with the densest layer of power fibers.) "Bound" moisture in bamboo can be driven out of the fibrous structures through the aging and heat-treating process. Once bound moisture isdrivenout of the fibrous cell sturctures, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that itwillreturn, as those cell structures have become altered somehow, and the resinswithin will have become condensed and "solidified." That part of the dryingprocess can't really be reversed--much like scrambling an egg. "Free" moisture in bamboo can also be driven out through the processes ofaging and heat-treating. But "free" moisture (whether in the form of ambient humidity or actual water), unfortunately, is also free tore-enterthe myriad "spaces" between fibrous cells. It enters most quickly by wicking through the ends of cane strips, but moisture also entersslowlyeven through the sides of the cane, and even through the protectivevarnish. In the end, perhaps the best advise is to be certain you are using the bestcane you can select, that your heat-treating has been adequate, that you build under conditions as free from humidity as possible, and that your varnish (or poly) has been built up to at least two good coats.Worryingmore than that is to worry about elements that can have little, if any, effect upon the rod's ability to do what it was designed to do. Bamboo, after that, will do what it will do. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Wayne Kifer" Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 11:13 AMSubject: Optimum moisture content Gentlemen,While it is understood that the moisture content of a finished rod will affect it's action as well as it's tendency to take a set, what is not clearis exactly what that moisture content should be. A search of thearchivesproduced discussions on this topic but I didn't find a consensus ofopinionon this matter. Moisture content can be readily controlled prior to and during the building process by storing the cane in a 90Ÿ drying room or cabinet maintained at the appropriate moisture content. This can be done with the use of a dehumidifier and/or a humidifier and/or a wet/dry bulb tomonitor the moisture content in the storage environment. Thisunderstood,what would be the optimum moisture content of a finished rod? All input would be appreciated.Thanks in advance for the help.Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Oct 9 01:08:23 2001 f9968M425868 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 01:08:22 -0500 helo=g2t8c9) id 15qq3w-0006Rh-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 08 Oct 2001 23:08:20 -0700 Subject: More on heat I one day would like to see a rod that had no heat treatment. No hot air gun to straighten nodesNo alcohol lampNo heat setting glue in an ovenNo flamingNo color changing of the cane due to any heat whatsoever. If you do any of these procedures guess what? You are heat treating. Heat treatment still confuses some because they have not found the =answer to the question they are asking. True all cane may not need to be =heat treated by us. But the fact remains to have consistent results in =any endeavor you must work from a fairly constant starting point. Or =results will vary because the starting point never is in the same place. We do not know the history over the years of the cane we receive, how =it was stored, where it was stored or what temperature it was exposed to =in its long travel over from China. All cane is not equal and we do not =know what the state of the bamboo is that others have. For all we know =some of us may have cane that sat closer to the campfire in the village =and is therefore been heat treated unknowingly. We just do not know. I =have spent more years in labs in institutions of higher learning then I =care to remember so figuring out how to remove variables is not that =difficult. And it is easier then ignoring them. Variable-Moisture: remove it by dryingDry Cane is now the starting point: heat treat to achieve a desired =characteristic. Lignin will plastize in the 300's and then resolidify =when cooled giving a stiffer piece of cane with less intrAcellular =moisture. IntErcellular moisture still will vary depending on the =environment. The moisture between the cells(intercellular) travels back =and fourth from the cane to the environment (breathing). The moisture =within the cells (intracellular) is the stuff that if remains will = I do not need a lab to tell me when mine plane is sharp, or when my gun =shoots straight or if one piece of cane is stiffer then another. Testing =only needs to meet the criteria in which the object will be used. We =painstakingly measure in .001's only to shrug our shoulders when it =comes to heat treating? More then enough information is out there now to =get a handle on this heat treating thing. Any newbie can read trials = If some have found heat treatment to have no value, well then I guess =that is why this is craft and not a science. Shoot... I met a lady the =other day who believed man never walked on the moon and she thought NASA=was a big waste of time to her because it had no effect on her life! Go =figure Adam Vigil I one day would like to see a rod that = treatment. No hot air gun to straighten =nodesNo alcohol lamp ovenNo flamingNo color changing of the cane due to = whatsoever. If you do any of these proceduresguess = are heat treating. Heat treatment still confuses = they have not found the answer to the question they are asking. True all = may not need to be heat treated by us. But the fact remains to have = results in any endeavor you must work from a fairly constant starting = place. = the cane we receive, how it was stored, where it was stored or what = it was exposed to in its long travel over from China. All cane is not = we do not know what the state of the bamboo is that others have. For all = village and is therefore been heat treated unknowingly. We just do not = have spent more years in labs in institutions of higher learning then I = remember so figuring out how to remove variables is not that difficult. = is easier then ignoring them. Variable-Moisture: remove it by =dryingDry Cane is now the starting point: = achieve a desired characteristic. Lignin will plastize in the 300's and = resolidify when cooled giving a stiffer piece of cane with less = moisture. IntErcellular moisture still will vary depending on the = the cane to the environment (breathing). The moisture within the = noodle like. I do not need a lab to tell me when = sharp, or when my gun shoots straight or if one piece of cane is stiffer = another. Testing only needs to meet the criteria in which the object = used. We painstakingly measure in .001's only to shrug our shoulders = comes to heat treating? More then enough information is out there now to = handle on this heat treating thing. Any newbie can read trials done by = Anderson, Milward and others to know where to start. If some have found heat treatment to = well then I guess that is why this is craft and not a science. Shoot... = lady the other day who believed man never walked on the moon and she = NASA was a big waste of time to her because it had no effect on her = Go figure AdamVigil from flyfishr@istar.ca Tue Oct 9 01:11:53 2001 f996Bq426104 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 01:11:52 -0500 helo=flyfishr) id 15qq7i-00013y-00; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 02:12:14 -0400 Subject: Re: (no subject) Bob Milward doesn't have a computer and is not on the 'net.His phone # is 604-985-0860. Subject: (no subject) = Bob Milward doesn't have a computer and is not on the 'net.His phone # is 604-985-0860. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 = AMSubject: (no subject)doesanyone = = you from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Tue Oct 9 01:25:58 2001 f996Pt426551 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 01:25:56 -0500 Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:23:58 +0800 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:23:58 +0800 "T. Ackland" Subject: Trout on shovel Speaking of shovels, I went for a drive through some forestry roadswith my sister's boyfriend who used to drive log trucks in this particulararea. He showed me a bridge where the road crossed a stream about twentyfeet wide and two to three feet deep. Apparently his crew were having "smoko" (morning tea break) on thebank next to the bridge when somebody noticed some large trout cruisingamong the pylons. The boss, who was obviously in the wrong vocation,positioned himself among the bridge struts and, after a few minutes,managedto belt a large trout on the head with a long-handled shovel. Gary admitted that the technique lacked a little finesse, but thiswas forgiven as the crew enjoyed a fine 20" plus brown trout for lunch thatday. Knowing my passion for bamboo rods, Gary did point out that the shovelhandle was constructed from wood, not graphite [:)] Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content Terry -As John Bokstrom often sez: the first thing you need to build bamboorods is a shovel for all the crap that's out there. from DNHayashida@aol.com Tue Oct 9 01:40:30 2001 f996eS427081 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 01:40:28 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 02:40:26 -0400 Subject: Re: More on heat In a message dated 10/8/01 11:09:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: I one day would like to see a rod that had no heat treatment. I made one about 5 years ago. The list had this very discussion back then, and I believed whoever it was that said cane needs no heat treatment. The result was the floppiest, slowest rod I have ever seen. It brought new meaning to the word "Noodle". It took a set and held it practically forever. Interestingly it eventually straightened out if left alone for a few hours. I have a nice set of fly tying tools with hex bamboo handles now....Darryl Hayashida In amessage dated 10/8/01 11:09:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,atlasc1@earthlink.net writes:I one day wouldlike to see a rod that had no heat treatment. I made one about 5 years ago. The list had this very discussion backthen, and I believed whoever it was that said cane needs no heat treatment.The result was the floppiest, slowest rod I have ever seen. It brought newmeaning to the word "Noodle". It took a set and held it practically forever.Interestingly it eventually straightened out if left alone for a few hours. Ihave a nice set of fly tying tools with hex bamboo handles now....Darryl Hayashida from homes-sold@home.com Tue Oct 9 06:33:37 2001 f99BXb429984 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 06:33:37 -0500 femail40.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Tue, 9 Oct 2001 04:33:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Tip & Source Archive Todd,Great job!!! I like the idea that someone suggested about pictures ordrawings when appropriate if everyone would keep the bit size down so thatstorage wouldn't become a problem, sometimes a picture is worth a thousandwords.Congratulation on a job well done.Don I've added a few tips to the archive. Also, I've added a TON of sourcesto the source listing. Check it out and give me some feedback from jfreeman@cyberport.com Tue Oct 9 06:41:10 2001 f99Bf9400351 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 06:41:09 -0500 mail.cyberport.com Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content I think you guys are talking about the SP's and SP+'s (+'s not madeanymore). They have a swelled butt, so to speak. More progressive than theRPL's. Ji----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content That's a good point. Were these rods green? I ask because a couple of years ago I cast a Sage (I think it was a Sage) which was green. It was 7' #4 and cast great, I was fishing for squid with it believe it or not. I reallyliked it because it was actually a decent action. Should have taken morenotice but how much notice does a squid fishing fly rod deserve?The pattern was orange chinelle wrapped around a trebble thin at the endsand thick in the middle made of three longshank hooks. And yes, I admit it, it was fun. Tony At 05:17 PM 10/7/01 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote: Martin Jensen wrote: The Graphite rod makers in there effortto get everyone to be able to cast 150 ft have forced fast action rodson the market. They "tell" people what a "good" rod feels like then goabout producing it. Most people fall for the sales pitch and go out and buy fast action rods. There are very few medium and slow action graphite rods on the market. -- Friends,If you have not yet tried the newest models of Sage graphite rods, you owe it to yourself to do so. I cast a couple of them at a show yesterday, and they really are nice casting rods. In fact, I liked both the 4 and 6weights quite a bit. I didn't cast any other graphite rods, and evenmanaged to sell the very last graphite rods I owned, so don't think I'mbecoming a traitor. But these were some of the best casting graphite rods I ever tried. Harry Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from dnorl@qwest.net Tue Oct 9 06:46:35 2001 f99BkZ400661 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 06:46:35 -0500 (63.228.47.228) " " , " " Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content Why do we have to defend our love of bamboo for fishing poles by denyingtheattributes of other materials?Dave-----Original Message----- fbcwin@3g.quik.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: RE: Optimum moisture content Sounds right. Pretty nice rod to cast, a lot like the (hate to say it butit's true) Sir D and a few people mentioned the same. Tony At 10:38 PM 10/7/01 -0700, Martin Jensen wrote: I think I remember seeing some Sage Green colored rods. There weremaybethere mid lever grade rods? I'm not sure but that seems to be what Iremember. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 10:18 PM Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content That's a good point. Were these rods green? I ask because a couple ofyearsago I cast a Sage (I think it was a Sage) which was green. It was 7' #4andcast great, I was fishing for squid with it believe it or not. I reallyliked it because it was actually a decent action. Should have taken more notice but how much notice does a squid fishing fly rod deserve? Thepattern was orange chinelle wrapped around a trebble thin at the endsand thick in the middle made of three longshank hooks. And yes, I admitit,it was fun. Tony At 05:17 PM 10/7/01 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote: Martin Jensen wrote: The Graphite rod makers in there effortto get everyone to be able to cast 150 ft have forced fast actionrods on the market. They "tell" people what a "good" rod feels likethen go about producing it. Most people fall for the sales pitch and go out and buy fast action rods. There are very few medium and slowaction graphite rods on the market. -- Friends,If you have not yet tried the newest models of Sage graphite rods, you owe it to yourself to do so. I cast a couple of them at a showyesterday, and they really are nice casting rods. In fact, I likedboth the 4 and 6 weights quite a bit. I didn't cast any other graphite rods, and even managed to sell the very last graphite rods I owned, sodon't think I'm becoming a traitor. But these were some of the bestcasting graphite rods I ever tried. Harry Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from ttalsma@macatawa.org Tue Oct 9 07:10:33 2001 f99CAW401198 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:10:32 -0500 id ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:04:39 -0400 id TH24NLW3; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:04:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Tip & Source Archive I've had a few references to the pictures and drawings. If people wantto send the pictures to me, that's fine. I've got a high speedconnection here at work and I can manipulate the size of the pictures aswell. Fire away guys. Don Schneider wrote: Todd,Great job!!! I like the idea that someone suggested about pictures ordrawings when appropriate if everyone would keep the bit size down so thatstorage wouldn't become a problem, sometimes a picture is worth athousandwords.Congratulation on a job well done.Don From: "Todd Talsma"I've added a few tips to the archive. Also, I've added a TON of sourcesto the source listing. Check it out and give me some feedback -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htm genealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm >Fromdannyt@frisurf.no Tue Oct 9 07:42:20 2001 Received: from f99CgJ401887 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 Oct 2001 14:39:30 +0200 Received: from tekn_pc (PC215.pd.no f99CdTV24731 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 200114:39:29 +0200 Message-Id:Date: Tue, 09 Oct Subject: Re: Carsten X-Mailer: Opera 5.12 build 932 X- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Sorry for pissing You off likethat, but c`mon on it was only 60KB. You obviously have no problem sendingme +17MB....... danny Dear Sir, Thank you for the picture. Although it took nearly one hour to downloadsince I couldn't get more than a 96K connection last night it was interesting to see. I would like to share with you the program I use for editing, mail,browsing, etc. It is called EMACS and is a freeware program from the freesoftware foundation. Enjoy. Paul ----- Original Message -----From: dannyt Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 9:25 AMSubject: Carsten I know its against the rule, but at the moment I don`t have any web siteto use, and the attachment is pretty small AND SAFE. Anyway I think You all will enjoy seeing our Danish friend Carsten withthe fish of his life cought in Norway. Its at least 50cm and are taken onhis beautyful "Force" later, danny;-) from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Tue Oct 9 07:54:19 2001 f99CsI402274 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:54:18 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:54:20 -0400 Subject: Test Please excuse the bandwidth, but I've been having all sorts of problems with email lately. JohnK from harms1@pa.net Tue Oct 9 08:04:59 2001 f99D4w402795 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:04:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content Terry, You got that right! But, of course, that would not include my opinions. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content Terry -As John Bokstrom often sez: the first thing you need to build bamboorods is a shovel for all the crap that's out there. ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 6:42 AMSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content Ron,thanks for the tips on what to read but I have found the more"rodmaking" Iread the more confused I get! I found Garrison heavy going and I wouldnever have made a rod if I had stuck to his recipe! from what I gather, the most recent "how to books" contain even more theorizing and technicalness.I am not a research scientist, but then again, I do not need to know themolecular make up of horse shit to recognize it when I smell it!Simply, Terry Ron Grantham wrote: Sorry, I should have said that Milward's research included discussionswith Dr. Iain Taylor, Professor of Botany, and Douglas Justice, M.Sc.,Curator of Collections and Research Scientist, both at the University of British Columbia. They're probably educated enough.You might also want to take a look at pages 4 & 5, The Planing Form,Issue Number 66, Nov/Dec 2000 for my heat treating test.Ron ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 6:25 PMSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content I think we must be careful about using the word research because most of usdo not have the education, training or equipment to carry out meaningful research.The best us basement technologist can expect is to try differenttechniques,whether it be time/temp and/or apparatus and to note the results and use what we find to be a benefit.I have dragged out an old Planing Form (1990) and an interesting article writen by Don Andersen and his experiments on heat treating. He detailed hismethod and results and what he thought was the best time/temp withoutmentioning what was happening at the molecular level!Thems were simple days!Terry,I'll scan you a copy Adam.Ron Grantham wrote: Bill -You are quite correct. BTW - according to Bob Milward's research, your so called "matrix" is known as sclerenchyma.One of my rods was being used by an experienced steelheader who later "lost" the rod in a northern British Columbia river while trying a very difficult wade, just above a canyon. His feet were swept out frombeneath him and he had to release the rod and wading staff in order that he could swim to shore, or else drown.The rod was found a month later, one mile downstream, having tumbledthrough a canyon and three sets of rapids. It was totally saturated with water, and the varnish and bright metal parts were scoured by sand and gravel.Three months later the rod had dried out and the action was as good as new. I built a replacement and compared it with the original and there was little difference, if any.No matter how you apply the varnish, dipping being the best, it willstill allow moisture to penetrate through to the bamboo, however slowly. Proper baking to eliminate the "free" water is the best we can do,considering that we are dealing with a natural product. ----- Original Message -----From: WILLIAM HARMS Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 10:15 AMSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content All, It is good practice to remove as much moisture as is practical during thebuilding stages and prior to varnishing. After that, however, itdoesn'tmatter very much what you try to do. Bamboo, like other natural, woody-fibered materials, will take on and release moisture constantly throughout the life of the rod, as thematerialis always trying to maintain (or reach) an equilibrium with whatever the theambient humidity may be. It really makes little sense to become "hyper" about super-drying ablankprior to varnishing, because even AFTER varnishing, the process ofmoistureabsorption and release will continue. Varnish (depending upon itsproperties) greatly retards this process, but nothing can eliminate it. I have tried before to explain what "water" is in bamboo, although that wasseveral years ago. Perhaps it's time again. There are two kinds ofmoisture in woody-fibered materials: "bound" water and "free" water.Theformer is found WITHIN the fibrous cell structures ("green" wood), while thelatter is found BETWEEN and AMIDST the fibrous cell structures. Inbamboo,there is a sort of "matrix" that separates the so-called power-fibers fromone another, and here is where the free moisture principally resides. (Another good reason for selecting cane with the densest layer of power fibers.) "Bound" moisture in bamboo can be driven out of the fibrous structures through the aging and heat-treating process. Once bound moisture isdrivenout of the fibrous cell sturctures, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that itwillreturn, as those cell structures have become altered somehow, and the resinswithin will have become condensed and "solidified." That part of the dryingprocess can't really be reversed--much like scrambling an egg. "Free" moisture in bamboo can also be driven out through the processes ofaging and heat-treating. But "free" moisture (whether in the form of ambient humidity or actual water), unfortunately, is also free tore-enterthe myriad "spaces" between fibrous cells. It enters most quickly by wicking through the ends of cane strips, but moisture also entersslowlyeven through the sides of the cane, and even through the protectivevarnish. In the end, perhaps the best advise is to be certain you are using the bestcane you can select, that your heat-treating has been adequate, that you build under conditions as free from humidity as possible, and that your varnish (or poly) has been built up to at least two good coats.Worryingmore than that is to worry about elements that can have little, if any, effect upon the rod's ability to do what it was designed to do. Bamboo, after that, will do what it will do. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Wayne Kifer" Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 11:13 AMSubject: Optimum moisture content Gentlemen,While it is understood that the moisture content of a finished rod will affect it's action as well as it's tendency to take a set, what is not clearis exactly what that moisture content should be. A search of thearchivesproduced discussions on this topic but I didn't find a consensus ofopinionon this matter. Moisture content can be readily controlled prior to and during the building process by storing the cane in a 90Ÿ drying room or cabinet maintained at the appropriate moisture content. This can be done with the use of a dehumidifier and/or a humidifier and/or a wet/dry bulb tomonitor the moisture content in the storage environment. Thisunderstood,what would be the optimum moisture content of a finished rod? All input would be appreciated.Thanks in advance for the help.Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 from canazon@mindspring.com Tue Oct 9 08:38:28 2001 f99DcR404339 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:38:27 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:38:27 -0400 Subject: re: trout on shovel michael,would your friend be willing to share the longhandle taper?if not, how bout some of that "tea".mike michael, = willing to share the longhandle taper? "tea". mike from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 9 08:50:05 2001 f99Do4405022 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:50:04 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:50:03 -0400 Subject: Re: trout on shovel I wonder, do Psylocibin mushrooms, from which "tea" might be made, grow =in Australia and New Zealand? M-D michael,would your friend be willing to share the longhandle taper?if not, how bout some of that "tea".mike I wonder, do Psylocibin= Zealand? M-D canazon michael, = willing to share the longhandle taper? "tea". mike from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Tue Oct 9 09:05:02 2001 f99E52405800 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:05:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Test Thanks Bob, It is with email, in general. I've got some sort of corruption in the operating system and it is choking the poor squirrel to death!!! I've got a new computer coming in about a week and am just hoping to hold on untilthen. Thanks again, John K At 08:04 AM 10/9/01 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote: Came through here, John... Is it problems with Rodmakers Listserv or withemail in general. Later,Bob PS: Hell, don't worry about the bandwidth. I've gotten so many pictures onthe list in the past few days, that a one line test is a refreshing break!*S* R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: "John Kenealy" Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 8:00 AMSubject: Test Please excuse the bandwidth, but I've been having all sorts of problemswith email lately. JohnK from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Oct 9 09:10:04 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f99EA4406173 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:10:04 -0500 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:10:08 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Santa Bin Laden? He's two years old and it's time to tell him the truth. Sit him down andexplain that all the Santa stuff about an old man in a beard is for littlekids, but he's big enough now to know that Santa is actually a marketingexecutive in an Italian suit. Hug him (your grandson, not Santa) for me. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Santa Bin Laden? Help,Whenever Bin Laden's face appears on the tv my 2 year old grandsonpoints at the screen and excitedly says, "Santa, Santa".How should I handle this because he might be disappointed when henotices nxt month that jolly old St. Nick down at the mail is notcarring an AK47 ?Terry from dnorl@qwest.net Tue Oct 9 10:37:59 2001 f99Fbv409988 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:37:58 -0500 (63.228.46.250) Subject: Re: Carsten What am I missing here with all the talk of inserts. Why don't the peoplejust x it out if they don't want to be bothered? Sounds like hitting yourfinger with a hammer and blaming the hammer to me. Am I missingsomething?Dave----- Original Message----- Subject: Re: Carsten Sorry for pissing You off like that, but c`mon on it was only 60KB. You obviously have no problem sending me +17MB....... danny Dear Sir, Thank you for the picture. Although it took nearly one hour to downloadsince I couldn't get more than a 96K connection last night it was interesting to see. I would like to share with you the program I use for editing, mail,browsing, etc. It is called EMACS and is a freeware program from the free software foundation. Enjoy. Paul ----- Original Message -----From: dannyt Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 9:25 AMSubject: Carsten I know its against the rule, but at the moment I don`t have any web site to use, and the attachment is pretty small AND SAFE. Anyway I think You all will enjoy seeing our Danish friend Carsten with the fish of his life cought in Norway. Its at least 50cm and are taken on his beautyful "Force" later, danny;-) from mibrooks@monacohr.com Tue Oct 9 10:38:46 2001 f99Fcj410099 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:38:45 -0500 Subject: HexRod for palmtop p.c. Does anyone out there know if HexRod or other good rod design software hasbeen ported/written for the handheld p.c.? (Mine is a Compaq iPAQ.) Ithought I saw something about such a program on a web site when I was"surfing" but haven't been able to locate it. MikeB from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 9 10:53:11 2001 f99FrA411193 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:53:10 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:52:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Santa Bin Laden My 13yr old daughter grew up knowing what an AK47was, because I have one hanging on the wall in my living room. I taught = here how to shoot a 22 rifle at age 7(along with safety) I'm NOT a gun =freak , but do believe we have the right to own them. My advise would be =careful explanation.I took an other than typical approach when my daughter was little. We =never put things up high (chemicals, fragile's, T.V.controllers etc...) =like most parents do. We Explained and corrected. Result was not saying =NO NO NO NO and doing nothing, like I see so many new parents doing =these days. Now my daughter is 13 (8thgrade) and very well behaved, = So what I'm saying is never hide anything from your children,and that =includes the truth, Maybe you'll get lucky and they won't hide things = from you when they get older.It's all about trust. Maybe my experience will help you Terry:))I know its tough to raise kids.:)) www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html My 13yr old daughter grew up knowing = AK47 on = my living room. I taught here how to shoot a 22 rifle at age 7(along = = corrected. Result was not saying NO NO NO NO and doing nothing, = Teacher's say she is college bound So what I'm saying is never hide = children,and that includes the truth, Maybe you'll get lucky and they = things from you when they get older.It's all about trust. Maybe my = I know its tough to raise =kids.:)) www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from lblan@provide.net Tue Oct 9 11:04:20 2001 f99G4J411976 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:04:19 -0500 with HTTP id 1960031 for ; Tue, 09 Oct2001 12:04:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Carsten Dave; some people are bothered by the length of time ittakes to download attachments. Personally, I just go grab acup of coffee. With the events we have witnessed in theworld the last couple of weeks, this is a rather silly thingto get into a pissing contest over. Larry Blan On Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:25:38 -0500"Dave Norling" wrote: What am I missing here with all the talk of inserts. Whydon't the peoplejust x it out if they don't want to be bothered? Soundslike hitting yourfinger with a hammer and blaming the hammer to me. Am Imissing something?Dave----- Original Message-----From: danny twang Date: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 7:43 AMSubject: Re: Carsten Sorry for pissing You off like that, but c`mon on it was only 60KB. Youobviously have no problem sending me +17MB....... danny Dear Sir, Thank you for the picture. Although it took nearly one hour to download since I couldn't get more than a 96K connection last night it was interesting to see. I would like to share with you the program I use for editing, mail, browsing, etc. It is called EMACS and is a freeware program from thefree software foundation. Enjoy. Paul ----- Original Message -----From: dannyt Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 9:25 AMSubject: Carsten I know its against the rule, but at the moment I don`t have any website to use, and the attachment is pretty small AND SAFE. Anyway I think You all will enjoy seeing our Danish friend Carstenwith the fish of his life cought in Norway. Its at least 50cm and aretaken on his beautyful "Force" later, danny;-) from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 9 11:11:47 2001 f99GBk412532 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:11:46 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:11:47 -0400 Subject: Re:Trout on shovel Now they are gonna have to add new regulations in the fishing regs for =shovel fishing. You know like only: spadehead shovels may be used =(Absolutely no flathead shovels)Only handles 3ft in length,Trout my only be struck with a full swing, =any one caught using weighted shovels or sledge hammers will be fined. =LOLTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Now they are gonna have to add new = the fishing regs for shovel fishing. You know like only: spadehead = be used (Absolutely no flathead =shovels)Only handles 3ft in length,Trout my = with a full swing, any one caught using weighted shovels or sledge = be fined. LOLTony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Oct 9 11:17:18 2001 f99GHH413074 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:17:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Trout on shovel Last time I went fishing with Tony Miller I wondered what that shovel was for. When asked he just grinned and said "never mind." LOLBret Last time I went fishing Bret from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 9 11:32:24 2001 f99GWM414118 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:32:22 -0500 Subject: Re: trout on shovel Magic mushies, sure are.There is a town called Nimbin right on the border of Queensland and New South Wales deep in the rain forrest. You may have seen with your kids/grand kids a Disney cartoon/move about fairys (with wings) buzzing around Mt Warning. This is the Mt Warning and Fern Gully in the cartoon, very alternative though in the way a lot of old hippies when they prostitute their principals go very comsumer it's gone upmarket. In fact I mentioned salvaging some wood from a rain forest that was being clear felled on list the other day. The jobs created cutting the timber down only lasted a bit longer than the top soil did when the timber was carted away.But you still see every day naked people obviously drink "tea" and smoking bang while walking in the town streets telling people the Hare Krishnas singing on the other side of the road are weird. Tony At 08:48 AM 10/9/01 -0500, Jojo DeLancier wrote: I wonder, do Psylocibin mushrooms, from which "tea" might be made, growin Australia and New Zealand? M-DFrom: mike canazon michael,would your friend be willing to share the longhandle taper?if not, how bout some of that "tea".mike /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 9 11:37:49 2001 f99Gbl414632 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:37:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Santa Bin Laden? f99Gbn414633 Try telling the poor kid the truth about Santa. He's a Coka~Cola marketing invention that took on a life of it's own. At 10:46 PM 10/8/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Help,Whenever Bin Laden's face appears on the tv my 2 year old grandsonpoints at the screen and excitedly says, "Santa, Santa".How should I handle this because he might be disappointed when henotices nxt month that jolly old St. Nick down at the mail is notcarring an AK47 ?Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Oct 9 11:49:48 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f99Gnm415517 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:49:48 -0500 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:49:48 -0500 Subject: RE: Trout on shovel this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. What about the guy I met on the banks of the Yellowstone near Billings,using a .44 pistol. He'd shoot down into the water (I'm not clear on themethod behind his aim and timing) and sometimes a stunned but unwoundedsucker would surface nearby. He'd snag it and chuckle and open another canof beer. Not sure if the suckers are edible or just gave him a warm personalfeeling. Would this work on trout? I know it's illegal in many places toactually shoot them in the water, but are there rules against stunning themwith large pistols? If so, I'm joining the nearest right wing militia group. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re:Trout on shovel Now they are gonna have to add new regulations in the fishing regs forshovel fishing. You know like only: spadehead shovels may be used(Absolutely no flathead shovels)Only handles 3ft in length,Trout my only be struck with a full swing, anyone caught using weighted shovels or sledge hammers will be fined. LOLTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html------ What about the guy I met on the banks of the Yellowstone near Billings, using a .44 pistol. He'd shoot down into the water (I'm not clear on themethod behind his aim and timing) and sometimes a stunned but unwounded suckerwould surface nearby. He'd snag it and chuckle and open another can of beer. Notsure if the suckers are edible or just gave him a warm personal feeling. Would this work on trout? I know it's illegal in many places to actually shoot them in the water, but are there rules against stunning them with large pistols? If so, I'm joining the nearest right wing militia group. -----Original Message-----From: Tony Miller 11:12 Re:Trout on shovelNow they are gonna have to add newregulations in the fishing regs for shovel fishing. You know like only: spadehead shovelsmay be used (Absolutely no flathead shovels)Only handles 3ft in length,Trout my only be struck with a full swing, any one caught using weighted shovels or sledge hammers will be fined. LOLTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 9 11:51:29 2001 f99GpT415826 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:51:29 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:51:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Trout on shovel LOL My secrets out Bret, Now I'm gonna have to start making Rattan =griped shovels he he he:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html LOL My secrets out Bret, Now I'm gonna= start making Rattan griped shovels he he he:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 9 11:53:53 2001 f99Grp416241 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:53:51 -0500 Subject: Re:Trout on shovel At least you'd be properly armed to discus the situation with a fishing inspector though I guess they's sooner or later make their rounds in a front end loader. Tony At 12:12 PM 10/9/01 -0400, Tony Miller wrote: Now they are gonna have to add new regulations in the fishing regs for shovel fishing. You know like only: spadehead shovels may be used (Absolutely no flathead shovels)Only handles 3ft in length,Trout my only be struck with a full swing, any one caught using weighted shovels or sledge hammers will be fined. LOLTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 9 11:57:45 2001 f99Gvh416718 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:57:44 -0500 Subject: RE: Trout on shovel Illegal in _many_ places??? The shovel jobbie was highly illegal and I'll bet he never even had a licence. a warm personal feeling. Would this work on trout? I know it's illegal in many places to actually shoot them in the water, but are there rules against stunning them with large pistols? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Oct 9 11:59:34 2001 f99GxX417004 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:59:34 -0500 oandc@email.msn.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Trout on shovel Michael,I would have prefered if your buddy had practiced wack and release. I haveforwarded your posting on to shovelmakers.Terry Roberts, Michael wrote: Speaking of shovels, I went for a drive through some forestry roadswith my sister's boyfriend who used to drive log trucks in this particulararea. He showed me a bridge where the road crossed a stream abouttwentyfeet wide and two to three feet deep.Apparently his crew were having "smoko" (morning tea break) on thebank next to the bridge when somebody noticed some large trout cruisingamong the pylons. The boss, who was obviously in the wrong vocation,positioned himself among the bridge struts and, after a few minutes,managedto belt a large trout on the head with a long-handled shovel.Gary admitted that the technique lacked a little finesse, but thiswas forgiven as the crew enjoyed a fine 20" plus brown trout for lunch thatday. Knowing my passion for bamboo rods, Gary did point out that theshovelhandle was constructed from wood, not graphite [:)] Mike -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2001 14:00 Cc: harms1@pa.net; oandc@email.msn.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content Terry -As John Bokstrom often sez: the first thing you need to build bamboorods is a shovel for all the crap that's out there. from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 9 12:10:29 2001 f99HAT417807 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:10:29 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:10:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Trout on shovel I can see him and his buddy and one saying "hey do you think I should =get a license before I whack this trout on the head"Whack and release LOL I can't stop laughing! that was goodTerry:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html I can see him and his buddy and one = head"Whack and release LOL I can't stop = was goodTerry:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from mibrooks@monacohr.com Tue Oct 9 12:18:28 2001 f99HIR418309 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:18:27 -0500 Subject: unsubscribe Please remove my name from the rod maker's list serve. People with toomuchtime on their hands sending this kind of worthless garbage is a waste of mytime and your resources. Sadly, it is not possible to police what could havebeen a valuable resource. It is being wrecked for everyone. Mike Brooks -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Trout on shovel I can see him and his buddy and one saying "hey do you think I should geta license before I whack this trout on the head"Whack and release LOL I can't stop laughing! that was goodTerry:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html on their hands sending this kind of worthless garbage is a waste of my = your resources. Sadly, it is not possible to police what could have been = valuable resource. It is being wrecked for everyone. Brooks MillerSent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:11 = shovelI can see him and his buddy and one = head"Whack and release LOL I can't stop = was goodTerry:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 9 12:25:06 2001 f99HP4418915 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:25:05 -0500 Subject: Re: unsubscribe If you just wanted to be force fed what needs to be learned as a craft is it was the wrong place and I wish you luck in your rush to find wisdom in hermetically sealed packages cut up in bit sized peices.bye bye At 10:18 AM 10/9/01 -0700, Mike Brooks wrote: Please remove my name from the rod maker's list serve. People with too much time on their hands sending this kind of worthless garbage is a waste of my time and your resources. Sadly, it is not possible to police what could have been a valuable resource. It is being wrecked for everyone. Mike Brooks -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of Tony MillerSent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Trout on shovel I can see him and his buddy and one saying "hey do you think I should get a license before I whack this trout on the head"Whack and release LOL I can't stop laughing! that was goodTerry:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from jmpio@nhbm.com Tue Oct 9 12:27:00 2001 f99HQx419208 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:26:59 -0500 id ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:30:35 -0600 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: unsubscribe Frankly, I had to agree with Mr. Brooks that the "shovel" thread had reachedthe point it more appropriately belonged in a chat room. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: unsubscribe If you just wanted to be force fed what needs to be learned as a craft is it was the wrong place and I wish you luck in your rush to find wisdom in hermetically sealed packages cut up in bit sized peices.bye bye At 10:18 AM 10/9/01 -0700, Mike Brooks wrote: Please remove my name from the rod maker's list serve. People with too much time on their hands sending this kind of worthless garbage is a waste of my time and your resources. Sadly, it is not possible to police what could have been a valuable resource. It is being wrecked for everyone. Mike Brooks -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of Tony MillerSent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Trout on shovel I can see him and his buddy and one saying "hey do you think I should get a license before I whack this trout on the head"Whack and release LOL I can't stop laughing! that was goodTerry:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop /home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from ajthramer@hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 12:48:15 2001 f99HmD420100 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:48:13 -0500 Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:48:12 -0700 Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:48:11 GMT Subject: Heat and Moisture etc FILETIME=[909C3450:01C150EA] from a more historical point of view, do you think that any of the production builders of years past would have heat treated their cane if there was not some reason for it? When you are trying to save 8 cents on fittings I don't think you would overlook the time and trouble of heat treating if it were not playing some needed role in cane constuction. The only piece of real information that has come out of this thread has been Darryl H. real test of what happens, results that are backed up by years of empirical results from the last hundred years of using Tonkin cane. I am primarily interested in what works.A.J. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 9 12:57:12 2001 f99HvC420756 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:57:12 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:57:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Unsubscribe Mike ,Dude I'm so sick of hearing that.I contribute alot to the list. And yes once in awhile I get lost in =rederick. So Just try to lighten up.If you don't think you are getting anything from all these fine makers =on the list to once in a while deal with a little fun posts. Man what a =boring life.And before every one starts firing up and taking sides,,just remember =most all here have posted non rodmaking posts at one time or another. so =lets just let it go. Please this has been done to death. We can't get =into it everytime one personcomplains alittle. I'm gonna try to add a chat room to my webpage to =help this situation out. So I do understand we get out of hand once in a =while, but it aint that bad.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html that.I contribute alot to the list. And yes = awhile I get lost in rederick. So Just try to lighten up.If you don't think you are getting = posts. Man what a boring life.And before every one starts firing up = sides,,just remember most all here have posted non rodmaking posts at = or another. so lets just let it go. Please this has been done to death. = get into it everytime one personcomplains alittle. I'm gonna try to add = to my webpage to help this situation out. So I do understand we get out = once in a while, but it aint that bad.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jvswan@earthlink.net Tue Oct 9 13:02:00 2001 f99I20421123 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:02:00 -0500 (63.225.232.210) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108Subject: Rodbuilders community Mike and all, One thing that should be considered when participating on this list, or anyother, is that the people and the communications that are represented arepart of a community. It is an on-line community, to be sure, but verysimilar to clubs and other organizations where people get together and talkface to face. The people "with too much time on their hands" recognize thisas not only a repository of knowledge, but a social opportunity for peoplewho share common values and skills, who are widely dispersed and are notlikely to meet in person, at least not in this lifetime. Having said that, while I too find myself wondering why some messages areposted to the list when I personally feel that they would be better sentprivately, I have to admit that I have found wisdom and increasedunderstanding from some posts that have seemed irrelevant. Mostimportantly, this list is not for individuals, but for everybody, andsometimes individuals must make concessions to others for the well being ofthe community. Besides, our emails come with subject lines. It takes me agrand total of 10 seconds to delete a list of 20 or so emails with subjectsthat I don't find interesting. Finally, for those of us who are novices or otherwise interested in gainingexperience and knowledge about rod building, there is still no betterresource for finding answers to questions and general skills and methodsinformation. Regardless of the flotsam that sometimes surfaces on the list,these people are the best in the business and are WILLING to share valuableinsight and information that has taken many of them a lifetime of practiceand effort. Try walking in to a commercial establishment (say T&T or Scott)and asking them about some of their processes or tapers. What will youget?A wall. I am sorry that you cannot see the value in this community, Mike. It isreally a living and adaptable source of knowledge that you would do well toretain it in your email. I hope you will be able to get past thediscussions that don't interest you and maintain your presence with us. Youmay find that it is more useful that you think. Jason Swan On 10/9/01 11:18 AM, "Mike Brooks" wrote: Please remove my name from the rod maker's list serve. People with toomuchtime on their hands sending this kind of worthless garbage is a waste ofmytime and your resources. Sadly, it is not possible to police what could havebeen a valuable resource. It is being wrecked for everyone. Mike Brooks -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Trout on shovel I can see him and his buddy and one saying "hey do you think I should get alicense before I whack this trout on the head"Whack and release LOL I can't stop laughing! that was goodTerry:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from harms1@pa.net Tue Oct 9 13:33:32 2001 f99IXV422701 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:33:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Heat and Moisture etc Well, to each, his own. For me, I've never cottoned much to the "faith ofour fathers" line of persuasion. There were many things our predecesors did(both in and out of the rodbuilding industry) that weren't necessarily forthe best. I'd rather keep my ears open, if that's ok. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Heat and Moisture etc from a more historical point of view, do you think that any of theproduction builders of years past would have heat treated their cane ifthere was not some reason for it? When you are trying to save 8 cents onfittings I don't think you would overlook the time and trouble of heattreating if it were not playing some needed role in cane constuction. Theonly piece of real information that has come out of this thread has beenDarryl H. real test of what happens, results that are backed up by years of empirical results from the last hundred years of using Tonkin cane. I amprimarily interested in what works.A.J. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from lblan@provide.net Tue Oct 9 13:37:46 2001 f99Ibk422974 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:37:46 -0500 with HTTP id 1970769 for ; Tue, 09 Oct2001 14:37:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Rodbuilders community Jason, I have met many, many of the rodmakers on this listvia the gatherings. This is true for a good many of us, weknow each other as people, not just a name on a list. Iconsider many of the folks here to be personal friends, justa bit farther removed than my next door neighbor! Not aflame, your post was spot on other than this. Larry Blan On Tue, 09 Oct 2001 12:02:04 -0600"Jason Swan" wrote: Mike and all, One thing that should be considered when participating onthis list, or anyother, is that the people and the communications that arerepresented arepart of a community. It is an on-line community, to besure, but verysimilar to clubs and other organizations where people gettogether and talkface to face. The people "with too much time on theirhands" recognize thisas not only a repository of knowledge, but a socialopportunity for peoplewho share common values and skills, who are widelydispersed and are notlikely to meet in person, at least not in this lifetime. Having said that, while I too find myself wondering whysome messages areposted to the list when I personally feel that they wouldbe better sentprivately, I have to admit that I have found wisdom andincreasedunderstanding from some posts that have seemedirrelevant. Mostimportantly, this list is not for individuals, but foreverybody, andsometimes individuals must make concessions to others forthe well being ofthe community. Besides, our emails come with subjectlines. It takes me agrand total of 10 seconds to delete a list of 20 or soemails with subjectsthat I don't find interesting. Finally, for those of us who are novices or otherwiseinterested in gainingexperience and knowledge about rod building, there isstill no betterresource for finding answers to questions and generalskills and methodsinformation. Regardless of the flotsam that sometimessurfaces on the list,these people are the best in the business and are WILLINGto share valuableinsight and information that has taken many of them alifetime of practiceand effort. Try walking in to a commercial establishment(say T&T or Scott)and asking them about some of their processes or tapers.What will you get?A wall. I am sorry that you cannot see the value in thiscommunity, Mike. It isreally a living and adaptable source of knowledge thatyou would do well toretain it in your email. I hope you will be able to getpast thediscussions that don't interest you and maintain yourpresence with us. Youmay find that it is more useful that you think. Jason Swan On 10/9/01 11:18 AM, "Mike Brooks"wrote: Please remove my name from the rod maker's list serve. People with too much time on their hands sending this kind of worthless garbage is a waste of my time and your resources. Sadly, it is not possible to police what could have been a valuable resource. It is being wrecked for everyone. Mike Brooks -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tony Miller Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Trout on shovel I can see him and his buddy and one saying "hey do you think I should get a license before I whack this trout on the head"Whack and release LOL I can't stop laughing! that was good Terry:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Oct 9 14:32:31 2001 f99JWV425578 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:32:31 -0500 AF43911E42 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:32:15 -0400 Subject: Heat treating I'm convinced that heat treating makes a difference to rod action. I'vemade the same rod taper/configuration in both blond and heat treatedversions and the actions were definitely different. Many years ago when Ifirst got into this craft I experimented with 18" lengths of cane, somewith nodes, some without. These were planed to a uniform width, measuredwith the mic's, and the size written on the cane. These were heat treatedin my kitchen oven at various temperature and time combinations. Otherthancolor change, the most striking change was a decrease in cross section of upto 10%, ie, the cane shrank an amount equal to one line size! Clearly thebamboo was now denser and stiffer than before treating. After measuring Ibroke each section in half with my hands to determine relative strength.The more aggressively heated sections tended to break in long fine splintersdown to the lowest layer of power fibres. My current practice is to flame the raw culm with a turbo torch propane in arandom pattern so as to get a "turtle shell" look. I like the look of thisin a finished rod. The second heat treat is done in my oven at 350 F. forup to 20 min. before final planing to size. Thin tip sections get less timebecause they "cook" much faster, so I remove the bound sections, flip themend to end and watch for color change Tips may be in the oven up to 10min., butts up to 20 min. depending on observed color. I have two digitalthermometers monitoring temps, so I know within a few degrees what the"real" temp is. A final heat treat is done when gluing. The glued andbound sections are placed in the oven at 225F. and allowed to cool to roomtemp. I've probably made over a 100 rods with this approach and I'm convinced thateach step makes a difference to rod action.I admit that this all very judgemental and intuitive, but the results speak from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 9 14:51:30 2001 f99JpU427133 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:51:30 -0500 (authenticated) for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:51:15 -0700 Subject: List blessings (Tom Smithwick) Friends, I stopped at home for just a minute before going tolunch today. Two wonderful surprises awaited me, via theUSPS. First, a fellow from Minnesota whom I've never met from cocobolo to lilac. His note said, "If you like them,use them. If you don't like them, send them back." That'sall. Where else would you find that sort of spirit? Manythanks to whoever sent them. They were anonymous. No name,just an address. The second, and greatest surprise was a long, triangularbox. I've been around rodmaking long enough to recognizethe shape and style, and it always makes me smile. Enclosed were two rods from Tom Smithwick. First was aspiral version of the Grand Experiment rod, which Tom isloaning to the upcoming Southern Rodmakers Gathering. It'sa wonderful rod, as I proved by wasting my lunch hour out inthe yard with the rod. It has neat resorcinol-like gluelines, a dark reel seat, blued ferrules, and dark reddishbrown wraps. And, of course, the fascinating spiral twist.How does it cast? Loading it up with a 5 weight line seemedthe most natural thing in the world. Let's just say thatit's on my very short list of really wonderful rods. Second was a PMQ, or poor man's quad. This is afascinating looking little two piece rod, made from only twostrips of bamboo. The nodeless scarfs are strongly evidentwith the Resorcinol. It came in a wonderful 5 sidedhardwood tube (TOM - if you'd like to sell a few of thosetubes, let me know!!!) It's really a fascinating littlerod. I haven't cast it yet because I couldn't remember whatline Tom told me it liked best. My guess is about a 3weight. All that to say this: I have never met Tom Smithwick.I wouldn't know him if he walked up to me. He has no reasonwhatsoever to trust me other than the relationship we havedeveloped through email over this list. In the past He hashelped me with tapers, with sharpening, and with other ideastoo numerous to mention. But we've never met. He sent metwo rods obviously worth $1000 +. May never meet in person,but he's a real friend to rodmakers one and all. That's what this list is about. Thanks Tom,Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from mschaffer@mindspring.com Tue Oct 9 15:13:20 2001 f99KDJ428694 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:13:19 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:13:22 -0400 Subject: Agate stripper guides and plastic line Guys,I was just wondering if anyone has tried using 1/2 of a DT line knotted =to the backing on a rod with an agate stripper? I'm asking because the =strippers I've seen either have what appears to be a very small hole, or =if the hole is big enough (for say a WF line) the guide itself looks =too large. Any comments, ideas? I will one of these days get hold of a =silk line, but at the moment it's not economically feasible. Thanks, Mike (the 'Doc' version ) Guys,I was just wondering if anyone has = of a DT line knotted to the backing on a rod with an agate = asking because the strippers I've seen either have what appears to be a = it's not economically feasible. Thanks, ) from jon_burningham@yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 15:28:31 2001 f99KSU429637 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:28:30 -0500 Oct 2001 13:28:29 PDT Subject: Planing form question for a newbie Hello all! This is my very first time posting, and I admit that Iam the newest of newbies. In fact, I have not yetmade a bamboo rod, or even fished with one for thatmatter. I have fished plastics for about 8 years, andI confess that I kind of like the two that I have--flyfishing is fun in my book regardless of the material. I saltwater fish for tuna as well, so I fish forwhatever is fun. In any case, I have recently purchased and readthrough (more like studied) Garrison and Cattanach. Iread that people recommend other books as beingbetter, and I will likely get them also. I wasplanning on buying many of my tools, but then decidedto make my planing forms. Which brings me to my question..... I have studied the method and layouts that areavailable in the books that I have as well as thoseavailable on Thomas Penrose's website. None of themseamed to be ideal in my mind, so I mixed and matchedthe configurations to get what I wanted. I should addhere that I haven't made them yet, I am only layingthem out at this point. At first look I thought thatit would be better if the planing forms were widerthan those that I saw. So, I drew out a set using 1"X 1 1/2" bar stock. But when I went to price thedowel pins and shoulder bolts for this, I thoughtagain. Currently, I am considering making them from1" X 1" stock. Ok, now for my question for real.... Is there any benefit to having wider planing forms? Or is there a reason that I should keep them smallerlike those I see on Thomas Penrose's website (3/4" X3/4" stock)? Thanks in advance for any replies. No worriesreplying in techinical terms as I have a Masters inEngineering. Oh, while I am at it, I have another question. Arethere any rod maker meetings in Southern California(I'm in San Diego)? Or maybe a rod maker that youknow of in San Diego that would be willing to show mea trick from time to time? That's all for now, Jon Burningham __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 9 15:49:07 2001 f99Kn5400742 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:49:06 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:49:07 -0400 Subject: Re:Planning form question JonI made my own forms and I used 3/4" by 3/4"square stock. Now I wish I would have used 1" by 1''I'm notorious for nicking my blocks on the edge.I think if I would have made them a 1/2 " wider overall it would have =avoided some of this. That would have made them almost as wide as the =sole of the plane. But keep in mind,It's more weight, more drilling, more to file. And my set almost broke =my back draw filing them. But they are very accurate none the less. But =looking back I just might by my next set. LOL But as I have said before =making them is likened to being able to making a rod.so it comes down to choice ,but it will not affect the planning function =if the forms are a little wider.the V groove and surface flatness are the critical things.Perpendicularly of the V groove and the surface also important. Width of =the forms , not that important.You will at least want them 3/4" thick though to allow for the rod to be =set in the groove and not touch the bolts and pins.Hope this helps. www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html JonI made my own forms and I used 3/4" 3/4"square stock. Now I wish I would have = 1''I'm notorious for nicking my blocks on = edge. = wider overall it would have avoided some of this. That would have made = mind,It's more weight, more drilling, more = my set almost broke my back draw filing them. But they are very accurate = the less. But looking back I just might by my next set. LOL But as I = before making them is likened to being able to making a =rod.so it comes down to choice ,but it will = the planning function if the forms are a little wider. flatness = critical things.Perpendicularly of the V groove and the= also important. Width of the forms , not that important.You will at least want them 3/4" thick = pins.Hope this helps.Tony = www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Oct 9 16:03:17 2001 f99L3H401872 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:03:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Trout on shovel A lump on the head is illegal, but a hole in the lip is ok?Terry Tony Young wrote: Illegal in _many_ places??? The shovel jobbie was highly illegal and I'llbet he never even had a licence. a warm personal feeling. Would this work on trout? I know it's illegal inmany places to actually shoot them in the water, but are there rulesagainst stunning them with large pistols? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from sniderja@email.uc.edu Tue Oct 9 16:52:09 2001 f99Lq8405463 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:52:08 -0500 Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:59:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line Mike, I use half-length DT lines on my short rods all the time. These =have agate/agateen guides (some of one, some of the other) and have =suffered no problems. I usually nail knot the backing to the fly line =then coat with Pliobond.These rods are 4-5 wts.J. Snider Subject: Agate stripper guides and plastic line Guys,I was just wondering if anyone has tried using 1/2 of a DT line =knotted to the backing on a rod with an agate stripper? I'm asking =because the strippers I've seen either have what appears to be a very =small hole, or if the hole is big enough (for say a WF line) the guide =itself looks too large. Any comments, ideas? I will one of these days =get hold of a silk line, but at the moment it's not economically =feasible. Thanks, Mike (the 'Doc' version ) Mike, I use half-length DT = short rods all the time. These have agate/agateen guides (some of one, = the other) and have suffered no problems. I usually nail knot the = fly line then coat with Pliobond.These rods are 4-5 =wts.J. Snider ----- Original Message ----- shaffer = Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001= PMSubject: Agate stripper guides = plastic line Guys,I was just wondering if anyone has = 1/2 of a DT line knotted to the backing on a rod with an agate = I'm asking because the strippers I've seen either have what appears to = very small hole, or if the hole is big enough (for say a WF line) the = it's not economically feasible. Thanks, ) from rzimmerman@kcds.net Tue Oct 9 16:52:42 2001 f99Lqf405584 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:52:41 -0500 be forged)) for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:52:42 -0500 Subject: RE: unsubscribe I rarely contribute to the list, however, I always read the list ofsubjects. Some days I am quite bored with just the regular rod minutia andgo right by those posts. I personally thought the shovel episode has beenquite humorous, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with a little digressiononce in a while. There's enough trouble and travail in the world now tomake a nonrodmaking thread a welcome respite, even at the risk ofoffendingcertain iindividuals.Thanks for posting it!Randy Zimmerman from bob@downandacross.com Tue Oct 9 17:10:09 2001 f99MA8406901 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:10:08 -0500 Subject: RE: List blessings (Tom Smithwick) Another twist in the "who's Santa Claus" thread. -----Original Message----- Subject: List blessings (Tom Smithwick) Friends, I stopped at home for just a minute before going tolunch today. Two wonderful surprises awaited me, via theUSPS. First, a fellow from Minnesota whom I've never met from cocobolo to lilac. His note said, "If you like them,use them. If you don't like them, send them back." That'sall. Where else would you find that sort of spirit? Manythanks to whoever sent them. They were anonymous. No name,just an address. The second, and greatest surprise was a long, triangularbox. I've been around rodmaking long enough to recognizethe shape and style, and it always makes me smile. Enclosed were two rods from Tom Smithwick. First was aspiral version of the Grand Experiment rod, which Tom isloaning to the upcoming Southern Rodmakers Gathering. It'sa wonderful rod, as I proved by wasting my lunch hour out inthe yard with the rod. It has neat resorcinol-like gluelines, a dark reel seat, blued ferrules, and dark reddishbrown wraps. And, of course, the fascinating spiral twist.How does it cast? Loading it up with a 5 weight line seemedthe most natural thing in the world. Let's just say thatit's on my very short list of really wonderful rods. Second was a PMQ, or poor man's quad. This is afascinating looking little two piece rod, made from only twostrips of bamboo. The nodeless scarfs are strongly evidentwith the Resorcinol. It came in a wonderful 5 sidedhardwood tube (TOM - if you'd like to sell a few of thosetubes, let me know!!!) It's really a fascinating littlerod. I haven't cast it yet because I couldn't remember whatline Tom told me it liked best. My guess is about a 3weight. All that to say this: I have never met Tom Smithwick.I wouldn't know him if he walked up to me. He has no reasonwhatsoever to trust me other than the relationship we havedeveloped through email over this list. In the past He hashelped me with tapers, with sharpening, and with other ideastoo numerous to mention. But we've never met. He sent metwo rods obviously worth $1000 +. May never meet in person,but he's a real friend to rodmakers one and all. That's what this list is about. Thanks Tom,Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Oct 9 17:20:35 2001 f99MKY407568 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:20:35 -0500 v4.1.40/v4164. . Clean. Processed in 0.943628 secs); 09 Oct 200122:15:13 -0000 Subject: Re: unsubscribe --------------90EE04EEFED5A9269EF3FD3B Lighten up! What your delete button doesn't work? Marty Mike Brooks wrote: Please remove my name from the rod maker's list serve. People with toomuch time on their hands sending this kind of worthless garbage is awaste of my time and your resources. Sadly, it is not possible topolice what could have been a valuable resource. It is being wrecked -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu MillerSent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Trout on shovel I can see him and his buddy and one saying "hey do you thinkI should get a license before I whack this trout on thehead"Whack and release LOL I can't stop laughing! that wasgoodTerry:))TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html --------------90EE04EEFED5A9269EF3FD3B Lighten up! What your delete button doesn't work? MartyMike Brooks wrote: Pleaseremove my name from the rod maker's list serve. People with too much timeon their hands sending this kind of worthless garbage is a waste of mytime and your resources. Sadly, it is not possible to police what couldhave been a valuable resource. It is being wrecked foreveryone.MikeBrooks -----OriginalMessage-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of TonyMillerSent: Tuesday, October09,2001 10:11 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Trout onshovel I can see him and his buddy and one saying"hey do you think I should get a license before I whack this trout on thehead"Whack and releaseLOLI can't stop laughing! that was goodTerry:))TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html --------------90EE04EEFED5A9269EF3FD3B-- from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Oct 9 17:33:26 2001 f99MXP408248 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:33:25 -0500 PAA07094; Subject: Re: Santa Bin Laden? No Bin Laden is not Santa Clause. He is Satan Claws----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Santa Bin Laden? He's two years old and it's time to tell him the truth. Sit him down andexplain that all the Santa stuff about an old man in a beard is for littlekids, but he's big enough now to know that Santa is actually a marketingexecutive in an Italian suit. Hug him (your grandson, not Santa) for me. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 9:46 PM Subject: Santa Bin Laden? Help,Whenever Bin Laden's face appears on the tv my 2 year old grandsonpoints at the screen and excitedly says, "Santa, Santa".How should I handle this because he might be disappointed when henotices nxt month that jolly old St. Nick down at the mail is notcarring an AK47 ?Terry from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Oct 9 17:35:26 2001 f99MZP408472 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:35:25 -0500 (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4164. . Clean. Processed in 0.708085 secs); 09 Oct 200122:31:55 -0000 Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie Hi Joe, I see no reason to make the forms any wider than 3/4"x3/4" barstock. The one I made years ago I made from Brass bars. In my opinionit's much easier to machine (as I did with hand tools) and no botherwith rust. Also it seems more flexible for a greater ability to makelarger station to station dimension changes (ie. Swelled butts). Marty Jon Burningham wrote: Hello all! This is my very first time posting, and I admit that Iam the newest of newbies. In fact, I have not yetmade a bamboo rod, or even fished with one for thatmatter. I have fished plastics for about 8 years, andI confess that I kind of like the two that I have--flyfishing is fun in my book regardless of the material.I saltwater fish for tuna as well, so I fish forwhatever is fun. In any case, I have recently purchased and readthrough (more like studied) Garrison and Cattanach. Iread that people recommend other books as beingbetter, and I will likely get them also. I wasplanning on buying many of my tools, but then decidedto make my planing forms. Which brings me to my question..... I have studied the method and layouts that areavailable in the books that I have as well as thoseavailable on Thomas Penrose's website. None of themseamed to be ideal in my mind, so I mixed and matchedthe configurations to get what I wanted. I should addhere that I haven't made them yet, I am only layingthem out at this point. At first look I thought thatit would be better if the planing forms were widerthan those that I saw. So, I drew out a set using 1"X 1 1/2" bar stock. But when I went to price thedowel pins and shoulder bolts for this, I thoughtagain. Currently, I am considering making them from1" X 1" stock. Ok, now for my question for real.... Is there any benefit to having wider planing forms?Or is there a reason that I should keep them smallerlike those I see on Thomas Penrose's website (3/4" X3/4" stock)? Thanks in advance for any replies. No worriesreplying in techinical terms as I have a Masters inEngineering. Oh, while I am at it, I have another question. Arethere any rod maker meetings in Southern California(I'm in San Diego)? Or maybe a rod maker that youknow of in San Diego that would be willing to show mea trick from time to time? That's all for now, Jon Burningham __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from jeremy@goflyfishing.com Tue Oct 9 17:39:21 2001 f99MdK408745 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:39:20 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:39:23 -0400 Subject: Payne 200-L Taper I have a customer looking for a Payne 200-L taper. He says it is a lightervariation of the Payne 200. If anyone has this taper or know of it'swhereabouts, please let me know. Thanks. from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Oct 9 17:40:54 2001 f99Mer408986 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:40:53 -0500 Subject: RE: List blessings (Tom Smithwick) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Harry - I'm happy to support your gathering in some small way, and hope you will all have a great time. It's my humble way of giving a bit back to all those who have helped me over the years. If you had attended as many ofthe gatherings as I have and observed the kind of people who organize and attend them, you would know why I have no trepidation about sending a couple rodson a 1000 mile ride. Actually, I suspect you already know.PS - The PMQ is a pretty zippy 4 weight. from Vtbamboo@cs.com Tue Oct 9 17:45:11 2001 f99MjA409372 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:45:10 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:44:46 -0400 Subject: Ferrule Sizing Help! How much drop at the ferrule stations is too much for Super Z Style Ferrules? Butt ferrule station measures .218, which I figure for a size 14 ferrule. Tip (Or male end) ferrule station measures .210. Do I need to order Step Downs? I would rather not get involved with building the tip station up with bamboo slivers, or thread (As I've read in some books) since the rod is sanded and has one coat of finish on it already. I Help! How much drop atthe ferrule stations is too much for Super Z Style Ferrules? Butt ferrulestation measures .218, which I figure for a size 14 ferrule. Tip (Or male end)ferrule station measures .210. Do I need to order Step Downs? I would rathernot get involved with building the tip station up with bamboo slivers, orthread (As I've read in some books) since the rod is sanded and has one coatof finish on it already. I from harms1@pa.net Tue Oct 9 18:15:33 2001 f99NFV410561 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:15:32 -0500 Subject: Re: List blessings (Tom Smithwick) Harry, You're right about Tom Smithwick. He is surely the best among the best. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: List blessings (Tom Smithwick) Friends, I stopped at home for just a minute before going tolunch today. Two wonderful surprises awaited me, via theUSPS. First, a fellow from Minnesota whom I've never metsent me 14 turning blanks for making reel seats, everything from cocobolo to lilac. His note said, "If you like them,use them. If you don't like them, send them back." That'sall. Where else would you find that sort of spirit? Manythanks to whoever sent them. They were anonymous. No name,just an address. The second, and greatest surprise was a long, triangularbox. I've been around rodmaking long enough to recognizethe shape and style, and it always makes me smile. Enclosed were two rods from Tom Smithwick. First was aspiral version of the Grand Experiment rod, which Tom isloaning to the upcoming Southern Rodmakers Gathering. It'sa wonderful rod, as I proved by wasting my lunch hour out inthe yard with the rod. It has neat resorcinol-like gluelines, a dark reel seat, blued ferrules, and dark reddishbrown wraps. And, of course, the fascinating spiral twist.How does it cast? Loading it up with a 5 weight line seemedthe most natural thing in the world. Let's just say thatit's on my very short list of really wonderful rods. Second was a PMQ, or poor man's quad. This is afascinating looking little two piece rod, made from only twostrips of bamboo. The nodeless scarfs are strongly evidentwith the Resorcinol. It came in a wonderful 5 sidedhardwood tube (TOM - if you'd like to sell a few of thosetubes, let me know!!!) It's really a fascinating littlerod. I haven't cast it yet because I couldn't remember whatline Tom told me it liked best. My guess is about a 3weight. All that to say this: I have never met Tom Smithwick.I wouldn't know him if he walked up to me. He has no reasonwhatsoever to trust me other than the relationship we havedeveloped through email over this list. In the past He hashelped me with tapers, with sharpening, and with other ideastoo numerous to mention. But we've never met. He sent metwo rods obviously worth $1000 +. May never meet in person,but he's a real friend to rodmakers one and all. That's what this list is about. Thanks Tom,Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Oct 9 18:23:41 2001 f99NNe411018 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:23:40 -0500 Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:23:39 -0700 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line FILETIME=[6D91ABA0:01C15119] I have been using 1/2 DT lines up to 6 wt. for some time now but never w=ith agateen guides but I would like to comment about your connection to t=he backing. I was never happy with the transition connection to the back=ing or trying to shoot the backing. I now use 30 lb. Poly Shoot from Air=Flo. The stuff is great and has no memory. I strip about 3" of the fly =line coating off and nail knot the fly line to the Poly Shoot. I only us=e 50 ft. of Poly Shoot and am really satisfied. The 30 lb. has a nice si= ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line Mike, I use half-length DT lines on my short rods all the time. These hav=e agate/agateen guides (some of one, some of the other) and havesuffered=no problems. I usually nail knot the backing to the fly line then coat w=ith Pliobond.These rods are 4-5 wts.J. Snider Subject: Agate stripper guides and plastic line Guys,I was just wondering if anyone has tried using 1/2 of a DT line knotted t=o the backing on a rod with an agate stripper? I'm asking because the st=rippers I've seen either have what appears to be a very small hole, or if=the hole is big enough (for say a WF line) the guide itself looks too l=arge. Any comments, ideas? I will one of these days get hold of a silk li=ne, but at the moment it's not economically feasible. Thanks, Mike (the 'Doc' version ) I have been using 1/2 DT lines up to 6 wt= =with the transition connection to the backing or trying to shoot the back= ----- Original Message ----- From: JerrySn= October = mschaff= use half-length DT lines on my short rods all the time. These have agate=/agateen guides (some of one, some of the other) and have suffered no pro=blems. I usually nail knot the backing to the fly line then coat with Pli=obond. These rods=are 4-5 wts. J. = plast=ic line Guys, I was just wondering ifanyone =has tried using 1/2 of a DT line knotted to the backing on a rod with an = ave what appears to be a very small hole, or if the hole is big enough (f= deas? I will one of these days gethol= 'Doc'=version ) from briansr@point-net.com Tue Oct 9 18:33:23 2001 f99NXM411589 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:33:22 -0500 Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:52:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Trout on shovel Terry !!!!???Yep, a hole in the lip IS OK .Without you wouldn't be applying a razor sharpblade to those poor pieces of grass :~)Cheers Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Trout on shovel A lump on the head is illegal, but a hole in the lip is ok?Terry Tony Young wrote: Illegal in _many_ places??? The shovel jobbie was highly illegal and I'll bet he never even had a licence. a warm personal feeling. Would this work on trout? I know it's illegal in many places to actually shoot them in the water, but are there rulesagainst stunning them with large pistols? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Oct 9 18:41:28 2001 f99NfR412084 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:41:27 -0500 Subject: Re: unsubscribe D88DFC1C108237AAE359638F" --------------D88DFC1C108237AAE359638F Mike,I often unsubscribe, dont be so melodramatic, just do it and put yourhand in your pocket and get a book and/or video. There are too manyopinionated bastards on the list all doing things the best way whichmakes things confusing for a newcomer.If you are guided by one guy and his book you have at least a startingpoint and can develop your own style.The list has been going for 5 years, do you honestly think that cane rodmaking can be that difficult.Terry Mike Brooks wrote: Please remove my name from the rod maker's list serve. People withtoo much time on their hands sending this kind of worthless garbage isa waste of my time and your resources. Sadly, it is not possible topolice what could have been a valuable resource. It is being wrecked -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu MillerSent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Trout on shovelI can see him and his buddy and one saying "hey do you thinkI should get a license before I whack this trout on thehead"Whack and release LOL I can't stop laughing! that wasgoodTerry:))TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html --------------D88DFC1C108237AAE359638F Mike,I often unsubscribe, dont be so melodramatic, just do it and put yourhand in your pocket and get a book and/or video. There are too manyopinionatedbastards on the list all doing things the best way which makes thingsconfusing If you are guided by one guy and his book you have at least a startingpoint and can develop your own style.The list has been going for 5 years, do you honestly think that canerod making can be that difficult.Terry Mike Brooks wrote: Pleaseremove my name from the rod maker's list serve. People with too much timeon their hands sending this kind of worthless garbage is a waste of mytime and your resources. Sadly, it is not possible to police what couldhave been a valuable resource. It is being wrecked foreveryone.MikeBrooks -----OriginalMessage-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of TonyMillerSent: Tuesday,October 09,2001 10:11 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Trout onshovelI can see him and his buddy and onesaying"hey do you think I should get a license before I whack this trout on thehead"Whack andrelease LOLI can't stop laughing! that was goodTerry:))TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html --------------D88DFC1C108237AAE359638F-- from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 9 18:49:45 2001 f99Nni412590 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:49:44 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:49:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line Mike, You could always use the CA glue trick to adhere the backing inside the =fly line, then put a drop on the junction and it makes a nice, smooth =transition. No knots to even consider. M-D Guys,I was just wondering if anyone has tried using 1/2 of a DT line =knotted to the backing on a rod with an agate stripper? I'm asking =because the strippers I've seen either have what appears to be a very =small hole, or if the hole is big enough (for say a WF line) the guide =itself looks too large. Any comments, ideas? I will one of these days =get hold of a silk line, but at the moment it's not economically =feasible. Thanks, Mike (the 'Doc' version ) Mike, You could always usethe = trick to adhere the backing inside the fly line, then put a drop on the = consider. M-D shaffer Guys,I was just wondering if anyone has = 1/2 of a DT line knotted to the backing on a rod with an agate = I'm asking because the strippers I've seen either have what appears to = very small hole, or if the hole is big enough (for say a WF line) the = it's not economically feasible. Thanks, ) from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 9 19:00:53 2001 f9A00q413240 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:00:52 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:00:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie Jon, Were I to make new forms I would use the 1" x 1". The extra width of theforms will give you more support for the plane, though it is not needed, butthe extra depth will allow you to make some rods with really large diameterbutts, if you so choose. Because of the shoulder bolts I used in my 3/4" x3/4"forms, I could only get butt diameters of .368. across the flats. M-D Hello all! BIG SNIP Currently, I am considering making them from1" X 1" stock. Ok, now for my question for real.... Is there any benefit to having wider planing forms?Or is there a reason that I should keep them smallerlike those I see on Thomas Penrose's website (3/4" X3/4" stock)? MORE SNIPPING That's all for now, Jon Burningham from bob@downandacross.com Tue Oct 9 19:01:34 2001 f9A01X413364 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:01:33 -0500 "Rodmakers List-serv" Subject: RE: List blessings (Tom Smithwick) Yes, he is. At the Catskills Tom unloaded a whole bunch of stuff to showjust me. I learned a lot in the short time I got to hang out with him. Tomis a true gentleman.And Harry, you should not be surprised that someone would send you a rod.Your reputation (minister or not) is tops.The spiral rods are real treats. I don't know if that is the one I havecast, but I can tell you one thing...I am the brand new owner of a $125 copyof Lambuth's book. One day....Best regards, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: List blessings (Tom Smithwick) Harry, You're right about Tom Smithwick. He is surely the best among the best. cheers, Bill from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 9 19:03:58 2001 f9A03v413712 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:03:57 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:03:58 -0400 Subject: test/delete test/ deletewww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} test/ deletewww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from caneman@clnk.com Tue Oct 9 19:43:58 2001 f9A0hv415471 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:43:57 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Just curious, what kind of taper are you building that has that much =jump at the ferrule station.Assuming you're giving us the flat to flat measurements, then your =butt ferrule dimension is .218 or 13.95/64ths and your tip ferrule =station dimension is .210, or 13.44/64ths, so the sz 14 ferrule should =work on both ends pretty well. You may not have full contact with the =cane, but if you just touch off the corners on the .210 end you should =be able to get a tight fit (I like to fit my ferrules to the cane with =full contact if possible, but if not, still like them so tight that I =have to pull them off with a ferrule puller), and take the .218 end down =almost to the flats.Even if you went with a stepdown, you're not going to have a full =contact fit on the big end of the male ferrule. a 14 ferrule even in =stepdown, is still bored 14/64ths up to the stepdown. Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Subject: Ferrule Sizing Help! How much drop at the ferrule stations is too much for Super Z =Style Ferrules? Butt ferrule station measures .218, which I figure for a =size 14 ferrule. Tip (Or male end) ferrule station measures .210. Do I =need to order Step Downs? I would rather not get involved with building =the tip station up with bamboo slivers, or thread (As I've read in some =books) since the rod is sanded and has one coat of finish on it already. = Just curious, what kind of taper are you building = that much jump at the ferrule station. = flat measurements, then your butt ferrule dimension is .218 or = your tip ferrule station dimension is .210, or 13.44/64ths, so the sz 14 = be able to get a tight fit (I like to fit my ferrules to the cane with = contact if possible, but if not, still like them so tight that I have to = them off with a ferrule puller), and take the .218 end down almost to = flats. stepdown, = not going to have a full contact fit on the big end of the male = stepdown. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001= PMSubject: Ferrule SizingHelp! How= the ferrule stations is too much for Super Z Style Ferrules? Butt = station measures .218, which I figure for a size 14 ferrule. Tip (Or = ferrule station measures .210. Do I need to order Step Downs? I would = not get involved with building the tip station up with bamboo slivers, = thread (As I've read in some books) since the rod is sanded and has = of finish on it already. I from caneman@clnk.com Tue Oct 9 19:54:36 2001 f9A0sZ415830 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:54:36 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Ferrule Sizing That last email didn't sound too convincing once I read it... so lets =talk numbers. a 14/64ths ferrule has a bore of 0.21875. a near perfect =fit for your butt section once you round the corners off of the section. =Your tip section ferrule station measures 0.210 flat to flat, so your =apex to apex measurement in that same area should be in the neighborhood =of 0.238, so you would be taking 0.010 off of each corner to get a tight =fit for your tip ferrule station to the size 14 ferrule. This would =leave you "almost" half of the surface area of the cane at the tip =section ferrule station in contact with the inside of the male ferrule. =You should be just fine using a sz 14. If it spooks you too much, pin = Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Subject: Ferrule Sizing Help! How much drop at the ferrule stations is too much for Super Z =Style Ferrules? Butt ferrule station measures .218, which I figure for a =size 14 ferrule. Tip (Or male end) ferrule station measures .210. Do I =need to order Step Downs? I would rather not get involved with building =the tip station up with bamboo slivers, or thread (As I've read in some =books) since the rod is sanded and has one coat of finish on it already. = That last email didn't sound too convincing once I = be = neighborhood of 0.238, so you would be taking 0.010 off of each corner = Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001= PMSubject: Ferrule SizingHelp! How= the ferrule stations is too much for Super Z Style Ferrules? Butt = station measures .218, which I figure for a size 14 ferrule. Tip (Or = ferrule station measures .210. Do I need to order Step Downs? I would = not get involved with building the tip station up with bamboo slivers, = thread (As I've read in some books) since the rod is sanded and has = of finish on it already. I from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 19:55:30 2001 f9A0tT416005 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:55:29 -0500 Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:55:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie FILETIME=[3C977310:01C15126] People like the larger forms because they have less tendency to shift on thebench, and they are probably less sensitive to temperature changes. I thinkthat the slimmer bars are often used because they are easier to drill andtap, especially if one is using a hand held drill and not a press. Lessexpensive as well. Jeff from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Tue Oct 9 21:09:11 2001 f9A29B417776 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:09:11 -0500 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:48:45 -0500 Subject: RE: Planing form question for a newbie Hi Jon -- I'm also a newbie, but following this list for over a year. A great placeto be, for sure. I'm currently making my forms from 1" square bar. The bolts and dowelsthatI purchased cost me 37 dollars with our company "discount". I am making 6foot long forms, so not only are there longer bolts to consider, but twoextra stations. There are several downers to the bars that I started with, and could hit youas well. 1. As you are filing your bars flat, you have 2" worth of metal to even up,33% more than if you used the 3/4" keystock.2. The bars are 1026, harder than necessary. I should have purchased mildsteel which would have been easier to hand work.3. The bars lived on a rack outdoors for several years, and the pittingpresent has required a WHOLE LOT of hours with file in hand. Thissquaring/flattening phase is not all that fun. The first 20 hours were, butnot any more.4. These buggers are HEAVY in a serious sense. The extra rigidity isprobably not necessary, as your plane is going to follow the top of theforms even if they are slightly bowed. Your strips should stay on dimensionunless you have some serious doglegs or other obvious geometrical flaws. I think the only way I am going to finish these forms is to take them to oneof our 3rd party machine shops and have them surface ground to a 32 RMSfinish, and then hand finish it from there. Then all I'll have to do is tomake the tapered grooves on each side. I've procrastinated way too long onthis project, and I need to just get them done so the real fun can start. -----Original Message----- Subject: Planing form question for a newbie Hello all! This is my very first time posting, and I admit that Iam the newest of newbies. In fact, I have not yetmade a bamboo rod, or even fished with one for thatmatter. I have fished plastics for about 8 years, andI confess that I kind of like the two that I have--flyfishing is fun in my book regardless of the material. I saltwater fish for tuna as well, so I fish forwhatever is fun. In any case, I have recently purchased and readthrough (more like studied) Garrison and Cattanach. Iread that people recommend other books as beingbetter, and I will likely get them also. I wasplanning on buying many of my tools, but then decidedto make my planing forms. Which brings me to my question..... I have studied the method and layouts that areavailable in the books that I have as well as thoseavailable on Thomas Penrose's website. None of themseamed to be ideal in my mind, so I mixed and matchedthe configurations to get what I wanted. I should addhere that I haven't made them yet, I am only layingthem out at this point. At first look I thought thatit would be better if the planing forms were widerthan those that I saw. So, I drew out a set using 1"X 1 1/2" bar stock. But when I went to price thedowel pins and shoulder bolts for this, I thoughtagain. Currently, I am considering making them from1" X 1" stock. Ok, now for my question for real.... Is there any benefit to having wider planing forms? Or is there a reason that I should keep them smallerlike those I see on Thomas Penrose's website (3/4" X3/4" stock)? Thanks in advance for any replies. No worriesreplying in techinical terms as I have a Masters inEngineering. Oh, while I am at it, I have another question. Arethere any rod maker meetings in Southern California(I'm in San Diego)? Or maybe a rod maker that youknow of in San Diego that would be willing to show mea trick from time to time? That's all for now, Jon Burningham __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from channer@frontier.net Tue Oct 9 22:05:27 2001 f9A35Q419318 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:05:26 -0500 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:14:08 -0600 Subject: re: planing forms Jon;Making your own forms, while surely is proof of your commitment, is alsosome serious drudgery. I would recomend that you make your first set outof maple, 3/4"x3/4", it will go much quicker, be just as useable and notwear you out to the point that your sick of the whole thing before youeven start. If you are reasonably careful with your final planingtheywill last quite q while before you have to re-surface them and by thattime you will know if you want to continue making rods or not. If you goon, then make a set out of steel, or buy a set. Or you could start rightout with a block plane with a groove in the sole, in which case yourwooden forms will last indefinietly.John(btw, I made 7 rods on the wooden forms I made, then another dozen and ahalf on the steel ones I made and now use a set that I bought) from seanmcs@iprimus.com.au Tue Oct 9 22:50:33 2001 f9A3oV420594 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:50:32 -0500 Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:50:32 +1000 Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line FILETIME=[B5E747A0:01C1513E] MD: Could you please unpack that glue trick? Thanks. Sean Jojo DeLancier wrote: Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)Encoding: quoted-printable from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Tue Oct 9 23:11:28 2001 f9A4BQ421458 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:11:26 -0500 Subject: Re: List blessings (Tom Smithwick) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Harry,If that is the spiral rod I cast at the Catkills Gathering I know why you spent your lunch hour casting instead of eating. Man, that rod casts great! Joseph A Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith Rd.Portageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 Harry, that is the spiral rod I cast at the Catkills Gathering I know why you spentyour lunch hour casting instead of eating. Man, that rod casts great! www.geneseevalleyrods.com Portageville,NY 14536 from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 9 23:21:22 2001 f9A4LL422075 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:21:21 -0500 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:21:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line Here is what I posted off-list to another list member. Nunley has pointedout to me that CA's are damaging to fly lines, and I had heard that fromother sources. I believe that the type of CA may have something to do withthis, and therefore use only the ZAP adhesive recommended by Umpqua. Intheyears since I've been using the CA to attach backing and leader I've neverhad a failure, nor notice any cracking of the line, crazing, etc. I gothrough a couple of leaders in a year, so it may be that I'm cutting awayany damaged portions of the line before they have a chance to causeproblems. I get put into the backing several times a year, but still havenot noticed anything amiss with the connection, and have not had anyfailures there, either. Umpqua sells a kit to do this, among other things. It is called something like "The Dave Whitlock Splicing Kit." You can do it yourself, though thekit makes it easier. You'll need a small needle, with an eye large enough through which to passyour backing. Push the needle up into the fly line approx. 3/8" to 1/2",then exit it out the side of the line. Don't push it all the way out,though. Run the backing through the needle, but only enough to keep it fromslipping back out, then pull the needle and backing all the way out the holein the side of the line. You'll need approx. 2" outside the side of theline. Now apply only ZAP brand CA to the backing, only on the area that willbe inside the fly line and leaving quite a bit of excess glue, then quicklypull the saturated section of backing into the fly line. It will then bestuck. Cut off the excess line, on the side of the fly line, flush with theline itself. Then pull the backing and the line simultaneously, so that theend of the backing will be drawn into the fly line. Apply a small drop tothe hole where the backing exited the side of the line, then a small drop onthe end of the line, onto the backing, so that you have a smooth transition.You're done. 1/2" from the end, and exit it through the end. Thread the tippet end ofyour leader into the needle, and exit it from the fly line. Pull your leaderthrough the fly line until you have approx. 2" remaining out the side of theline. Now take some sandpaper and rough-up the leader, just in the area thatwill be inside the fly line. Apply the ZAP just as before, then pull theleader into the fly line. Cut the leader at an angle, then tug the line andleader, causing the leader end to disappear inside the fly line. Add a dropof glue to the hole in the side of the line, and a drop on the end of theline and leader, so that you have a smooth transition. You're done. Hope that is explained well enough. M-D MD: Could you please unpack that glue trick? Thanks. Sean from paul@lifeware.com Tue Oct 9 23:28:31 2001 f9A4SU422536 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:28:30 -0500 c0mailgw05.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.029) (NPlex 5.5.029) "Rod Makers List Serve" , Subject: RE: What is heat treating for? Bill, Does Dodge make a pickup? I wasn't aware of that. - Paul -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? Bob, Good job, both as to the information you gathered and the caveats aboutfuture research. Under the circumstances, I can see why you might havebeenreluctant to share your experiment. We have all become pretty sceptical ofone another on this heat-treating issue. Everybody has a story to tell, andof course, each of them is "gospel" (well, of course, MY stories are,anyhow). I found myself in the midst of an interesting reaction as I read the resultsof your experiment. I was mainly interested to see just how I was going tovindicate MY method of building. It was easy. First, I "decided" that mymethod of heat-straightening is sufficient to qualify as heat- treating.That was ok for awhile, until I read that the flame-treated cane producedamong the best two of your experimental strips. So then I pitched my tentin THAT camp. And now I feel justified in concluding that only MY way isthe best. Interesting, huh? It just goes to show how vulnerable we are to our ownlittle predilections and prejudices. We convince ourselves that what wewant to see is what's really there. Sometimes I think that our "evidence"is a little like a bunch of guys sitting around a bar arguing about whichpickup is better, the Ford, the Dodge or the Chevy. I sure wish we had the time and the money to research these issues as theyreally deserve, but it's way beyond me. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? OK, I heat treat and I did quite a bit of testing years ago to decide whattemps, what dwell time, etc... I've been hesitant to post this, because this was all done 10 years ago when a discussion between me and anothermakercame up about whether there were any real advantages to heat treating,andsince I didn't keep the numbers, and back then, there was no reason to, Ijust stuck with what I found gave the best (or what in my opinion the bestqualities were) and stayed there.This all occurred when I worked for Owens Corning Corp. We had someneat little toys in our binder lab and QC lab that I played with in my spare time. One was an extremely accurate electric oven and I used it to heattreat strips at different temps and for different times. I also had acontrol group of strips from the same culm that were not heat treated. Ihad several strips, can't remember how many, but probably 10 or so ofeachtemp/time combination and the same number of untreated strips. I doremember that all of the strips were about a foot long and each had a nodein it (also was a big disussion about whether nodes were the weakest part of the cane). Got then all treated and sorted then went to the QC lab... wehad a neat little toy there called an Instron. Boy, what a dandy. It would measure the breaking strength of any material that you could make a setofjaws to hold. Made the jaws in our fab shop on the mill.In any case, I put half of the strips from each group on the Instron,mounting them end to end and wrote down the value at which they failed (This was a massive machine and I think could have tested the shear strength of a Pickup Truck if you could have figured out a way to mount it in the jaws). I then put the other half on and measured the value at which they would split (side to side... tedious mounting them, but got it done). What I found was that low temp, long dwell time was the worst of the group. The second worst was the untreated strips. I really can't remember where all the othergroups fell except for two (wasn't important... I was just looking for thebest group as compared to the control group). Blonde strips treated at375-385 for 12 minutes were remarkable stronger in both directions than any of the other strips and Flamed strips at the same temperature/time performed very closely to the blonde strips. That was all I needed to know, andsomewhere along the way, the numbers just got thrown out with one of themany junkpiles I've cleaned out since.Now, I did NOT wait a few weeks for the moisture to re-enter and trythem again, so what Terry says may well be true, that once the moisturere-enters the cane, they will revert to the same characteristics asuntreated cane, but I do know that every since then, I've set my heattreating regimen according to those results and haven't had any problems at all with breakage or sets. And, like those that don't heat treat, I'llcontinue to do what I do until someone comes up with properly done research (hopefully with more varied groups than I had), done under correctconditions, that disproves what my "less than complete" experiment did.I'll be happy to do this again and record it all if someone has a$50,000 instron they can loan me for a few weeks! *S* Oh, and I'd need anoven like that sample oven in our binder lab... I'm sure we could pick upone like that for only the price of 20 or so fine fly rods. That is onething that makes my little test of years ago not so reliable, I did NOT use the oven I use now, I used one that is more accurate than any of us have in our shops.Seriously, if someone has access to an Instron, I'd be more than happyto set up test conditions that would give you reliable results with theproper number of control and experimental groups. That would give me achance to put some of that education I paid for to use for something! *S* I feel sure that the entire list would be interested in seeing the finalresults, but beware, in order to do this right, it will take time, andmultiple tests with strips from a different culm on each test, allow formoisture re-entry and retest, etc., etc., etc... In other words, it would be a long row to hoe, but would definitely give answers to everyones concernsover heat treating.I do have to agree with Terry that the experiments we do ("me" included in "we") are generally NOT sufficient to gather reliable results. First, in order to gain reliable results, you must have control groups to compare your experimental groups to. Also, "feel" is not a good measure ofcharacteristics. We must have an instrument capable of making qualityreliable measurements for comparason and those type of instruments,such as the Instron, are generally extremely expensive. Finally, just a few isn'tenough. You must have enough of each sample to insure repeatability, enter results in a database of some sort, even if it's only a spreadsheet, and get average performance for each set of samples. One flamed, one blonde,oneheat treated, one charcoaled, will not work... you would have to have 50flamed, 50 blonde, 50 at 300 deg/30 minutes, 50 at 300 for an hour, andsoon and so on and so on. Research like this is very time consuming andcoming up with the equipment to do it would be VERY expensive.ONE LAST THING... when the Instron was torturing these strips pullingthem from end to end... not one of them broke at the node. Later,Bob ----- Original Message -----From: "Don & Sandy Andersen" ; "Adam Vigil" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 3:38 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? Bill, After my heat treating experiments some years ago I was just plainconfused. from the results there seemed to be no real logical answer.Certainly one strip didn't get a whole lot better than others. And if I can remember right, the untreated test strip fell into about the middle of the pack.Do I heat treat - Yes - no reason why - Certainly others are convinced of the advantages. Just gotta see the experiments they went through todetermine the validity of their claims. Still, there is enough ballyhoo not to ignore the fact that there might just be something to the whole heattreatment thing.Till someone comes up with a reason, I guess on this one I flow with the pack. regards, Don At 09:01 AM 10/8/01 -0400, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Tony, Complicating our uncertainties on the issue of heat-treating, I would add that none of my rods have undergone heat-treating. Nor did any of those that were built by Vince Marinaro. I can't report on all the rods I have built since the 1970s, because they are dispersed all over the place. But of those I know of, none has taken a set that is any different from heat-treated rods that have also seen hard use. A couple of my rods from the '70s I still use regularly, and even they are still relatively straight (as are all of Vince's rods). I own an oven, but I have never used it. This is not because I am in any way opposed to heat-treating, but only because I haven't become convinced of the need for it. I am certainly open to more information, but on theevidence of the many rods I have built, heat-treating doesn't seem tomatter. I should add at this point, however, that I do take considerable care to heat-straighten all my strips prior to (and even during) planing--removing both the kinks in the nodes and also the long sweeps between. So, it is possible that this may have the same practical effect as a more methodical regimen of heat-treating. Additionally, in the past five years I have begun to lightly flame all my culms prior to splitting. This, too (in addition to straightening), may combine to produce the same effect as might an oven. "I just don't know" would have to describe my present state of mind. In any case, it appears to me that all the dogma we hear on one side and the other just may not be as urgent as the various proponents would have us think. More accurate on the benefits of heat-treating, perhaps, would simply be to conclude for the present: "Well, it all depends... ." I think we stilldon't really understand much of this with the certainty we might claim. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:59 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? Sorry, pushed the send before I finished.What I wanted to say was Thanks Terry, I agree moisture will re enter the rod after heat treating but something else is going on too. There are an awful lot of heat treated varnished rods kicking about that don't have sets and work pretty well.I understand you saying impregnated rods will handle really bad moist/wet conditions but so will a varnished rod during fishing and you have toassume a certain amount of care is taken after fishing like not putting the rod into a wet sleeve and thrown into a boat's bilge for eg.I don't understand why there seems to be something happening after heat treating but observation does suggest it. Tony from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Oct 9 23:36:52 2001 f9A4aq423027 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:36:52 -0500 ([209.178.136.195] helo=g2t8c9) id 15rB71-0001SH-00; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 21:36:55 -0700 Subject: Re: Heat treating Ted, Thanks for the input. I found that the times and temp you are using werewhat I like also. It is amazing that cane can act so consistently whentreated the same. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Heat treating I'm convinced that heat treating makes a difference to rod action. I'vemade the same rod taper/configuration in both blond and heat treatedversions and the actions were definitely different. Many years ago when Ifirst got into this craft I experimented with 18" lengths of cane, somewith nodes, some without. These were planed to a uniform width,measuredwith the mic's, and the size written on the cane. These were heat treatedin my kitchen oven at various temperature and time combinations. Other than color change, the most striking change was a decrease in cross section of up to 10%, ie, the cane shrank an amount equal to one line size! Clearly thebamboo was now denser and stiffer than before treating. After measuringIbroke each section in half with my hands to determine relative strength.The more aggressively heated sections tended to break in long fine splinters down to the lowest layer of power fibres. My current practice is to flame the raw culm with a turbo torch propane in a random pattern so as to get a "turtle shell" look. I like the look of this in a finished rod. The second heat treat is done in my oven at 350 F. forup to 20 min. before final planing to size. Thin tip sections get less time because they "cook" much faster, so I remove the bound sections, flipthemend to end and watch for color change Tips may be in the oven up to 10min., butts up to 20 min. depending on observed color. I have two digitalthermometers monitoring temps, so I know within a few degrees what the"real" temp is. A final heat treat is done when gluing. The glued andbound sections are placed in the oven at 225F. and allowed to cool to roomtemp. I've probably made over a 100 rods with this approach and I'm convinced that each step makes a difference to rod action.I admit that this all very judgemental and intuitive, but the results speak from seanmcs@iprimus.com.au Tue Oct 9 23:42:31 2001 f9A4gT423419 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:42:30 -0500 Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:42:29 +1000 Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line FILETIME=[F886C660:01C15145] MD: Thanks. Not sure this will work with silk, though. I lean towards aneedle knot for that with a bit of wader repair to seal it. sean Jojo DeLancier wrote: Here is what I posted off-list to another list member. Nunley has pointedout to me that CA's are damaging to fly lines, and I had heard that fromother sources. I believe that the type of CA may have something to do withthis, and therefore use only the ZAP adhesive recommended by Umpqua. Intheyears since I've been using the CA to attach backing and leader I've neverhad a failure, nor notice any cracking of the line, crazing, etc. I gothrough a couple of leaders in a year, so it may be that I'm cutting awayany damaged portions of the line before they have a chance to causeproblems. I get put into the backing several times a year, but still havenot noticed anything amiss with the connection, and have not had anyfailures there, either. Umpqua sells a kit to do this, among other things. It is called something like "The Dave Whitlock Splicing Kit." You can do it yourself, though thekit makes it easier. You'll need a small needle, with an eye large enough through which to passyour backing. Push the needle up into the fly line approx. 3/8" to 1/2",then exit it out the side of the line. Don't push it all the way out,though. Run the backing through the needle, but only enough to keep itfromslipping back out, then pull the needle and backing all the way out the holein the side of the line. You'll need approx. 2" outside the side of theline. Now apply only ZAP brand CA to the backing, only on the area that willbe inside the fly line and leaving quite a bit of excess glue, then quicklypull the saturated section of backing into the fly line. It will then bestuck. Cut off the excess line, on the side of the fly line, flush with theline itself. Then pull the backing and the line simultaneously, so that theend of the backing will be drawn into the fly line. Apply a small drop tothe hole where the backing exited the side of the line, then a small drop onthe end of the line, onto the backing, so that you have a smooth transition.You're done. 1/2" from the end, and exit it through the end. Thread the tippet end ofyour leader into the needle, and exit it from the fly line. Pull your leaderthrough the fly line until you have approx. 2" remaining out the side of theline. Now take some sandpaper and rough-up the leader, just in the areathatwill be inside the fly line. Apply the ZAP just as before, then pull theleader into the fly line. Cut the leader at an angle, then tug the line andleader, causing the leader end to disappear inside the fly line. Add a dropof glue to the hole in the side of the line, and a drop on the end of theline and leader, so that you have a smooth transition. You're done. Hope that is explained well enough. M-D From: "Sean McSharry" MD: Could you please unpack that glue trick? Thanks. Sean from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Oct 9 23:47:27 2001 f9A4lQ423796 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:47:26 -0500 ([209.178.136.195] helo=g2t8c9) id 15rBHF-0002IN-00; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 21:47:29 -0700 Subject: Re: List blessings (Tom Smithwick) Harry, I feel the same about alot of you guys. People make rods and socializing isnormal in all clubs, federations, league and so forth. But when it is timeto get the meeting started we get down to business. I here a few complainabout the side bar converstations that occur, but I do not hear anycomplaints that questions are not being answered. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it does it make asound? If a question is asked on Rodmakers but no one is there because of boredom,does it get answered? about the list in the search engine and see what they have contributed. Itis amazingly unremarkable. Adam Vigil PS- Great Western gathering in Bishop CA. Oct 20&21. Be there or be square----- Original Message ----- Subject: List blessings (Tom Smithwick) Friends, I stopped at home for just a minute before going tolunch today. Two wonderful surprises awaited me, via theUSPS. First, a fellow from Minnesota whom I've never metsent me 14 turning blanks for making reel seats, everything from cocobolo to lilac. His note said, "If you like them,use them. If you don't like them, send them back." That'sall. Where else would you find that sort of spirit? Manythanks to whoever sent them. They were anonymous. No name,just an address. The second, and greatest surprise was a long, triangularbox. I've been around rodmaking long enough to recognizethe shape and style, and it always makes me smile. Enclosed were two rods from Tom Smithwick. First was aspiral version of the Grand Experiment rod, which Tom isloaning to the upcoming Southern Rodmakers Gathering. It'sa wonderful rod, as I proved by wasting my lunch hour out inthe yard with the rod. It has neat resorcinol-like gluelines, a dark reel seat, blued ferrules, and dark reddishbrown wraps. And, of course, the fascinating spiral twist.How does it cast? Loading it up with a 5 weight line seemedthe most natural thing in the world. Let's just say thatit's on my very short list of really wonderful rods. Second was a PMQ, or poor man's quad. This is afascinating looking little two piece rod, made from only twostrips of bamboo. The nodeless scarfs are strongly evidentwith the Resorcinol. It came in a wonderful 5 sidedhardwood tube (TOM - if you'd like to sell a few of thosetubes, let me know!!!) It's really a fascinating littlerod. I haven't cast it yet because I couldn't remember whatline Tom told me it liked best. My guess is about a 3weight. All that to say this: I have never met Tom Smithwick.I wouldn't know him if he walked up to me. He has no reasonwhatsoever to trust me other than the relationship we havedeveloped through email over this list. In the past He hashelped me with tapers, with sharpening, and with other ideastoo numerous to mention. But we've never met. He sent metwo rods obviously worth $1000 +. May never meet in person,but he's a real friend to rodmakers one and all. That's what this list is about. Thanks Tom,Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 9 23:51:15 2001 f9A4pE424168 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:51:14 -0500 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:51:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line Sean, Might be tough with silk, though I have thought to try it, just haven'tgotten around to it. Braided leaders and Pliobond work well on the businessend, though. M-D MD: Thanks. Not sure this will work with silk, though. I lean towards aneedle knot for that with a bit of wader repair to seal it. sean Jojo DeLancier wrote: Here is what I posted off-list to another list member. Nunley has pointed out to me that CA's are damaging to fly lines, and I had heard that fromother sources. I believe that the type of CA may have something to do with this, and therefore use only the ZAP adhesive recommended by Umpqua.In the years since I've been using the CA to attach backing and leader I've never had a failure, nor notice any cracking of the line, crazing, etc. I gothrough a couple of leaders in a year, so it may be that I'm cutting away any damaged portions of the line before they have a chance to causeproblems. I get put into the backing several times a year, but still have not noticed anything amiss with the connection, and have not had anyfailures there, either. Umpqua sells a kit to do this, among other things. It is called something like "The Dave Whitlock Splicing Kit." You can do it yourself, though the kit makes it easier. You'll need a small needle, with an eye large enough through which to pass your backing. Push the needle up into the fly line approx. 3/8" to 1/2",then exit it out the side of the line. Don't push it all the way out,though. Run the backing through the needle, but only enough to keep it from slipping back out, then pull the needle and backing all the way out the hole in the side of the line. You'll need approx. 2" outside the side of theline. Now apply only ZAP brand CA to the backing, only on the area that will be inside the fly line and leaving quite a bit of excess glue, then quickly pull the saturated section of backing into the fly line. It will then bestuck. Cut off the excess line, on the side of the fly line, flush with the line itself. Then pull the backing and the line simultaneously, so that the end of the backing will be drawn into the fly line. Apply a small drop to the hole where the backing exited the side of the line, then a small drop on the end of the line, onto the backing, so that you have a smooth transition. You're done. 1/2" from the end, and exit it through the end. Thread the tippet end ofyour leader into the needle, and exit it from the fly line. Pull your leader through the fly line until you have approx. 2" remaining out the side of the line. Now take some sandpaper and rough-up the leader, just in the area that will be inside the fly line. Apply the ZAP just as before, then pull theleader into the fly line. Cut the leader at an angle, then tug the line and leader, causing the leader end to disappear inside the fly line. Add a drop of glue to the hole in the side of the line, and a drop on the end of the line and leader, so that you have a smooth transition. You're done. Hope that is explained well enough. M-D From: "Sean McSharry" MD: Could you please unpack that glue trick? Thanks. Sean from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Oct 9 23:53:19 2001 f9A4rI424438 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:53:18 -0500 ([209.178.136.195] helo=g2t8c9) id 15rBMv-0006aA-00; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 21:53:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie Jon, Blessed is he who makes his own forms. I chickened out and bought mine. Asto gatherings we have one coming up on October 20&21 in Bishop. Check outhttp://www.orphanlaptops.com/gw2001.htm There are a couple of us upnorth from you in Chino and Montclair. We will be in Bishop. You can email meanytime and if I do not know what you want. I know a lot of guys on thislist that do. Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Planing form question for a newbie Hello all! This is my very first time posting, and I admit that Iam the newest of newbies. In fact, I have not yetmade a bamboo rod, or even fished with one for thatmatter. I have fished plastics for about 8 years, andI confess that I kind of like the two that I have--flyfishing is fun in my book regardless of the material.I saltwater fish for tuna as well, so I fish forwhatever is fun. In any case, I have recently purchased and readthrough (more like studied) Garrison and Cattanach. Iread that people recommend other books as beingbetter, and I will likely get them also. I wasplanning on buying many of my tools, but then decidedto make my planing forms. Which brings me to my question..... I have studied the method and layouts that areavailable in the books that I have as well as thoseavailable on Thomas Penrose's website. None of themseamed to be ideal in my mind, so I mixed and matchedthe configurations to get what I wanted. I should addhere that I haven't made them yet, I am only layingthem out at this point. At first look I thought thatit would be better if the planing forms were widerthan those that I saw. So, I drew out a set using 1"X 1 1/2" bar stock. But when I went to price thedowel pins and shoulder bolts for this, I thoughtagain. Currently, I am considering making them from1" X 1" stock. Ok, now for my question for real.... Is there any benefit to having wider planing forms?Or is there a reason that I should keep them smallerlike those I see on Thomas Penrose's website (3/4" X3/4" stock)? Thanks in advance for any replies. No worriesreplying in techinical terms as I have a Masters inEngineering. Oh, while I am at it, I have another question. Arethere any rod maker meetings in Southern California(I'm in San Diego)? Or maybe a rod maker that youknow of in San Diego that would be willing to show mea trick from time to time? That's all for now, Jon Burningham __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Oct 10 00:09:34 2001 f9A59X425371 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:09:33 - ([209.178.136.195] helo=g2t8c9) id 15rBcf-0002Uc-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 22:09:37 -0700 Subject: mike brooks, unsubscribe All,I think we have a prankster on the list. Maybe it is the same guy who =did the WTC posting awhile back. When I emailed Mike Brooks this is what =I got back from my server. A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of itsrecipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed: mibrooks@monachor.comunrouteable mail domain "monachor.com" Me thinks we have a little stinker in our midst who changes email =addresses then sits back and laughs as we respond to his little post. Adam Vigil All, Maybe it is the same guy who did the WTC posting awhile back. When I = Mike Brooks this is what I got back from my server. A message that you sent could not be = one or more of itsrecipients. This is a permanent error. The = unrouteable mail domain "monachor.com" Me thinks we have a little stinker in = changes email addresses then sits back and laughs as we respond to his = post. Adam =Vigil from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Wed Oct 10 00:46:32 2001 f9A5kU426900 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:46:31 - Wed, 10 Oct 2001 06:46:33 +0100 Subject: Re: mike brooks, unsubscribe Adam,I know of at last one provider of dummy e-mail addresses which allowsone to send a spoof message to anyone.This could well indeed be the casehere and as previously......Paul Adam Vigil wrote: All,I think we have a prankster on the list. Maybe it is the same guy whodid the WTC posting awhile back. When I emailed Mike Brooks this iswhat I got back from my server. A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of itsrecipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es)failed: mibrooks@monachor.comunrouteable mail domain "monachor.com" Me thinks we have a little stinker in our midst who changes emailaddresses then sits back and laughs as we respond to his little post. Adam Vigil from martinrjensen@home.com Wed Oct 10 00:53:41 2001 f9A5rf427483 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:53:41 - femail45.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:53:40 -0700 , Subject: RE: Optimum moisture content That name sounds familiar Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Freeman Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content I think you guys are talking about the SP's and SP+'s (+'s not madeanymore). They have a swelled butt, so to speak. More progressive thanthe RPL's. Ji----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content That's a good point. Were these rods green? I ask because a couple of years ago I cast a Sage (I think it was a Sage) which was green. It was 7' #4 and cast great, I was fishing for squid with it believe it or not. I really liked it because it was actually a decent action. Should have taken more notice but how much notice does a squid fishing fly rod deserve? The pattern was orange chinelle wrapped around a trebble thin at the ends and thick in the middle made of three longshank hooks. And yes, I admit it, it was fun. Tony At 05:17 PM 10/7/01 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote: Martin Jensen wrote: The Graphite rod makers in there effortto get everyone to be able to cast 150 ft have forced fast action rods on the market. They "tell" people what a "good" rod feels like then go about producing it. Most people fall for the sales pitch and go out and buy fast action rods. There are very few medium and slow action graphite rods on the market. -- Friends,If you have not yet tried the newest models of Sage graphite rods, you owe it to yourself to do so. I cast a couple of them at a show yesterday, and they really are nice casting rods. In fact, I liked both the 4 and 6 weights quite a bit. I didn't cast any other graphite rods, and even managed to sell the very last graphite rods I owned, so don't think I'm becoming a traitor. But these were some of the best casting graphite rods I ever tried. Harry Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from martinrjensen@home.com Wed Oct 10 00:55:32 2001 f9A5tW427739 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:55:32 - femail48.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:55:31 -0700 Subject: RE: Trout on shovel Sucker or Squaw fish. If it's a squaw fish there might be a bounty onthem. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Trout on shovel What about the guy I met on the banks of the Yellowstone near Billings,using a .44 pistol. He'd shoot down into the water (I'm not clear on themethod behind his aim and timing) and sometimes a stunned but unwoundedsucker would surface nearby. He'd snag it and chuckle and open anothercan of beer. Not sure if the suckers are edible or just gave him a warmpersonal feeling. Would this work on trout? I know it's illegal in manyplaces to actually shoot them in the water, but are there rules againststunning them with large pistols? If so, I'm joining the nearest rightwing militia group. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re:Trout on shovel Now they are gonna have to add new regulations in the fishing regs forshovel fishing. You know like only: spadehead shovels may be used(Absolutely no flathead shovels)Only handles 3ft in length,Trout my only be struck with a full swing,any one caught using weighted shovels or sledge hammers will be fined.LOLTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Message them. Jensen -----Original Message----- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = On Behalf Of Kling, Barry W.Sent: Tuesday, October= rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: = on shovel using a .44 pistol. He'd shoot down into the water (I'm not clear on = method behind his aim and timing) and sometimes a stunned but = would surface nearby. He'd snag it and chuckle and open another can of = Not sure if the suckers are edible or just gave him a warm personal = Would this work on trout? I know it's illegal in many places to = them in the water, but are there rules against stunning them with = group. = shovelNow they are gonna have to add new = in the fishing regs for shovel fishing. You know like only: = shovels)Only handles 3ft in length,Trout my = struck with a full swing, any one caught using weighted shovels or = hammers will be fined. LOLTony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 01:00:07 2001 f9A605428151 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:00:06 - "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: re: planing forms Take a look at my page, there are instructions on making adjustable wooden forms that I'm still using and a few others have made. If you take care making them they'll work just fine for a long time. They cost about $40 and take about 4hrs to make. Tony At 09:07 PM 10/9/01 -0600, channer wrote: Jon;Making your own forms, while surely is proof of your commitment, is alsosome serious drudgery. I would recomend that you make your first set outof maple, 3/4"x3/4", it will go much quicker, be just as useable and notwear you out to the point that your sick of the whole thing before youeven start. If you are reasonably careful with your final planingtheywill last quite q while before you have to re-surface them and by thattime you will know if you want to continue making rods or not. If you goon, then make a set out of steel, or buy a set. Or you could start rightout with a block plane with a groove in the sole, in which case yourwooden forms will last indefinietly.John(btw, I made 7 rods on the wooden forms I made, then another dozen and ahalf on the steel ones I made and now use a set that I bought) /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from martinrjensen@home.com Wed Oct 10 01:02:38 2001 f9A62b428439 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:02:37 - femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: All you never wanted to know about attachments... 00000000F2232753D79B9B4CB1D4AEDD92EA0DFEA4354E00 Most email apps allow you to set your program to stop attachments if you sodesire. The people who can't handle getting attachments should investigatetheir email applications and see if they can set it as such. I mean thisbitch about attachments will slow them down for a bit but you are not goingto stop them, so why not set your app to stop them. As I said most appsallow for this sort of thing. Check it out. Martin Jensen name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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 from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Oct 10 01:05:38 2001 f9A65c428772 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:05:38 - Subject: Re: Optimum moisture content avyoung@iinet.net.au,fbcwin@3g.quik.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu You know I have to brag about my kid. The new CD Soundtrack For aGeneration was released today. Media Play in So. Bend, IN. did a CD release party and the band sold just in this one venue over 300 CDs in a little over 2 hours. Other stores in the area called Media Play asking how many CDs they had because they had sold out of their stock early in the day and Media Play had to turn them down from buying any of theirs because they were runningshort themselves. The boys are off to CBGBs in New York City to play a show tomorrow night. Anyone on the list who likes good rock and roll music you should pick up this CD. Hey I know it is little self promotion of my kid but he told me if he gets rich and becomes a millionaire he will retire me. I really would like to be able to get some more fishing in than I do. LOL.Bret You know I have to brag stores in the area called Media Play asking how many CDs they had becausethey had sold out of their stock early in the day and Media Play had to turnthem down from buying any of theirs because they were running short of my kid but he told me if he gets rich and becomes a millionaire he will than I do. LOL. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 01:13:59 2001 f9A6Dv429347 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:13:57 - Subject: Re: All you never wanted to know about attachments... The hassle here is I do want attachments when they are wanted like for work aren't just pics it's docs also.Personally I think there are certain rules of etiquette, try not to fart in a lift, switch off your mobile phone at the opera, say please and thank you and don't send attachments to a list serv. Tony At 11:01 PM 10/9/01 -0700, Martin Jensen wrote: Most email apps allow you to set your program to stop attachments if yousodesire. The people who can't handle getting attachments should investigatetheir email applications and see if they can set it as such. I mean thisbitch about attachments will slow them down for a bit but you are not goingto stop them, so why not set your app to stop them. As I said most appsallow for this sort of thing. Check it out. Martin Jensen /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 01:18:46 2001 f9A6Ii429785 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:18:44 - Subject: Re: unsubscribe Terry,you should consider using as your sig the line you used a couple of yearsback."Buy the bloody book and learn the hard way like we all did"Says it all really then fall back on the list with questions once you've actually touched a plane to cane. Tony At 07:43 PM 10/9/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Mike,I often unsubscribe, dont be so melodramatic, just do it and put your hand in your pocket and get a book and/or video. There are too many opinionated bastards on the list all doing things the best way which makes things confusing for a newcomer.If you are guided by one guy and his book you have at least a starting point and can develop your own style.The list has been going for 5 years, do you honestly think that cane rod making can be that difficult.Terry Mike Brooks wrote: Please remove my name from the rod maker's list serve. People with too much time on their hands sending this kind of worthless garbage is a waste of my time and your resources. Sadly, it is not possible to police what could have been a valuable resource. It is being wrecked for everyone.Mike Brooks-----Original Message-- --- Behalf Of Tony MillerSent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Trout on shovelI can see him and his buddy and one saying "hey do you think I should get a license before I whack this trout on the head"Whack and release LOL I can't stop laughing! that was goodTerry:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 01:21:14 2001 f9A6LB400220 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:21:12 - rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie Not sure if everybody else is seeing this but who ever wrote this message has no name in the return?I've wanted to write off list but never have a valid address to send to. Tony At 06:32 PM 10/9/01 -0400, none wrote: Hi Joe, I see no reason to make the forms any wider than 3/4"x3/4" barstock. The one I made years ago I made from Brass bars. In my opinionit's much easier to machine (as I did with hand tools) and no botherwith rust. Also it seems more flexible for a greater ability to makelarger station to station dimension changes (ie. Swelled butts). Marty from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 01:31:50 2001 f9A6Vl401061 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:31:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line I'll give this a go, I normally use the inchworm over the line with wiping (I've become VERY paranoid about loosing lines when I had one head for Africa when the nail knot stripped the line to the core). Always worth trying a new method.Anybody out there using those plastic cucumber shaped things you use to connect the leader to the line with using a knot the get constricted inside the device?They _look_ good and I'm using them now and haven't had problems but haven't had anything of any size to try them out yet. Tony MD: Thanks. Not sure this will work with silk, though. I lean towards aneedle knot for that with a bit of wader repair to seal it. sean Jojo DeLancier wrote: Here is what I posted off-list to another list member. Nunley has pointedout to me that CA's are damaging to fly lines, and I had heard that fromother sources. I believe that the type of CA may have something to dowiththis, and therefore use only the ZAP adhesive recommended by Umpqua.In theyears since I've been using the CA to attach backing and leader I've neverhad a failure, nor notice any cracking of the line, crazing, etc. I gothrough a couple of leaders in a year, so it may be that I'm cutting awayany damaged portions of the line before they have a chance to causeproblems. I get put into the backing several times a year, but still havenot noticed anything amiss with the connection, and have not had anyfailures there, either. ************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from seanmcs@iprimus.com.au Wed Oct 10 03:13:28 2001 f9A8DQ402646 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:13:26 -0500 Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:13:25 +1000 Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line FILETIME=[6FB09460:01C15163] Tony: Yes, I have used those line connectors. One did pull out - theline end. The risk with them is to leave them on and not renew the knotat least annually particularly on the line end. Also, for older rods,say with tip top guides with an agate insert; the damn thing gets stuckif you wind the line in at too acute an angle. No problem to be havingif you are serious about landing a large one. So I have given up onthem. If anyone wants my small supply of connectors, let me know! Sean Tony Young wrote: I'll give this a go, I normally use the inchworm over the line with wiping(I've become VERY paranoid about loosing lines when I had one head forAfrica when the nail knot stripped the line to the core). Always worthtrying a new method.Anybody out there using those plastic cucumber shaped things you use toconnect the leader to the line with using a knot the get constricted insidethe device?They _look_ good and I'm using them now and haven't had problems buthaven't had anything of any size to try them out yet. Tony MD: Thanks. Not sure this will work with silk, though. I lean towards aneedle knot for that with a bit of wader repair to seal it. sean Jojo DeLancier wrote: Here is what I posted off-list to another list member. Nunley haspointedout to me that CA's are damaging to fly lines, and I had heard thatfromother sources. I believe that the type of CA may have something to dowiththis, and therefore use only the ZAP adhesive recommended byUmpqua. In theyears since I've been using the CA to attach backing and leader I'veneverhad a failure, nor notice any cracking of the line, crazing, etc. I gothrough a couple of leaders in a year, so it may be that I'm cuttingawayany damaged portions of the line before they have a chance to causeproblems. I get put into the backing several times a year, but still havenot noticed anything amiss with the connection, and have not had anyfailures there, either. ************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 10 05:07:40 2001 f9AA7e403731 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 05:07:40 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: mike brooks, unsubscribe Paul, and others,Just wrote Adam a few minutes ago to let him know that Mike Brooks is areal person. I have communicated with him offlist and he is "apprenticing",so to speak, under Al Bellinger and Daryll Whitehead. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: mike brooks, unsubscribe Adam,I know of at last one provider of dummy e-mail addresses which allowsone to send a spoof message to anyone.This could well indeed be the casehere and as previously......Paul Adam Vigil wrote: All,I think we have a prankster on the list. Maybe it is the same guy whodid the WTC posting awhile back. When I emailed Mike Brooks this iswhat I got back from my server. A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of itsrecipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es)failed: mibrooks@monachor.comunrouteable mail domain "monachor.com" Me thinks we have a little stinker in our midst who changes emailaddresses then sits back and laughs as we respond to his little post. Adam Vigil from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Oct 10 06:09:45 2001 f9AB9i404647 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 06:09:45 - Subject: Re: Trout on shovel rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Here in the Indiana/Michigan region of the Greta Lakes I have seen guys down in the streams with pitch forks spearing salmon and steelhead. Last year there were 5 Mexican migrant workers arrested for doing this in a tributary to the St. Joseph River.Bret Here in theIndiana/Michigan region of the Greta Lakes I have seen guys down in the there were 5 Mexican migrant workers arrested for doing this in a tributaryto the St. Joseph River.Bret from dickay@alltel.net Wed Oct 10 07:52:12 2001 f9ACqB406902 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 07:52:11 - srv.alltel.net Wed, 10 Oct 2001 07:52:07 -0500 "Rod Makers List Serve" , Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? Paul, Don't talk about my 1996 Turbocharged One-Ton Dually Ram 3500 5Speedlike that! If you do I'll sic the TurboDiesel Registry on you. Mine gets12 MPG on the highway pulling my 29" 8500 Lbs Fifth Wheel Trailer at 70MPH.Try that with a gas guzzler. "Grab Life by the Horns" Or "If you can'tDodge it, Ram It"Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: RE: What is heat treating for? Bill, Does Dodge make a pickup? I wasn't aware of that. - Paul -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 6:26 PM Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? Bob, Good job, both as to the information you gathered and the caveats aboutfuture research. Under the circumstances, I can see why you might have been reluctant to share your experiment. We have all become pretty sceptical of one another on this heat-treating issue. Everybody has a story to tell, and of course, each of them is "gospel" (well, of course, MY stories are,anyhow). I found myself in the midst of an interesting reaction as I read the results of your experiment. I was mainly interested to see just how I was going to vindicate MY method of building. It was easy. First, I "decided" that mymethod of heat-straightening is sufficient to qualify as heat- treating.That was ok for awhile, until I read that the flame-treated cane producedamong the best two of your experimental strips. So then I pitched my tentin THAT camp. And now I feel justified in concluding that only MY way isthe best. Interesting, huh? It just goes to show how vulnerable we are to our ownlittle predilections and prejudices. We convince ourselves that what wewant to see is what's really there. Sometimes I think that our "evidence"is a little like a bunch of guys sitting around a bar arguing about whichpickup is better, the Ford, the Dodge or the Chevy. I sure wish we had the time and the money to research these issues astheyreally deserve, but it's way beyond me. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 5:27 PMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? OK, I heat treat and I did quite a bit of testing years ago to decide what temps, what dwell time, etc... I've been hesitant to post this, because this was all done 10 years ago when a discussion between me and anothermakercame up about whether there were any real advantages to heat treating, and since I didn't keep the numbers, and back then, there was no reason to, I just stuck with what I found gave the best (or what in my opinion the best qualities were) and stayed there.This all occurred when I worked for Owens Corning Corp. We had someneat little toys in our binder lab and QC lab that I played with in my spare time. One was an extremely accurate electric oven and I used it to heattreat strips at different temps and for different times. I also had acontrol group of strips from the same culm that were not heat treated. I had several strips, can't remember how many, but probably 10 or so of each temp/time combination and the same number of untreated strips. I doremember that all of the strips were about a foot long and each had a node in it (also was a big disussion about whether nodes were the weakest part of the cane). Got then all treated and sorted then went to the QC lab... we had a neat little toy there called an Instron. Boy, what a dandy. It would measure the breaking strength of any material that you could make aset of jaws to hold. Made the jaws in our fab shop on the mill.In any case, I put half of the strips from each group on the Instron, mounting them end to end and wrote down the value at which they failed (This was a massive machine and I think could have tested the shear strength of a Pickup Truck if you could have figured out a way to mount it in the jaws). I then put the other half on and measured the value at which they would split (side to side... tedious mounting them, but got it done). What I found was that low temp, long dwell time was the worst of the group. The second worst was the untreated strips. I really can't remember where all the othergroups fell except for two (wasn't important... I was just looking for the best group as compared to the control group). Blonde strips treated at375- 385 for 12 minutes were remarkable stronger in both directionsthan any of the other strips and Flamed strips at the same temperature/time performed very closely to the blonde strips. That was all I needed to know, andsomewhere along the way, the numbers just got thrown out with one ofthemany junkpiles I've cleaned out since.Now, I did NOT wait a few weeks for the moisture to re-enter and trythem again, so what Terry says may well be true, that once the moisturere-enters the cane, they will revert to the same characteristics asuntreated cane, but I do know that every since then, I've set my heattreating regimen according to those results and haven't had anyproblems at all with breakage or sets. And, like those that don't heat treat, I'llcontinue to do what I do until someone comes up with properly done research (hopefully with more varied groups than I had), done under correctconditions, that disproves what my "less than complete" experiment did.I'll be happy to do this again and record it all if someone has a$50,000 instron they can loan me for a few weeks! *S* Oh, and I'd need an oven like that sample oven in our binder lab... I'm sure we could pick up one like that for only the price of 20 or so fine fly rods. That is onething that makes my little test of years ago not so reliable, I did NOT use the oven I use now, I used one that is more accurate than any of us have in our shops.Seriously, if someone has access to an Instron, I'd be more than happy to set up test conditions that would give you reliable results with theproper number of control and experimental groups. That would give me achance to put some of that education I paid for to use for something! *S* I feel sure that the entire list would be interested in seeing the finalresults, but beware, in order to do this right, it will take time, andmultiple tests with strips from a different culm on each test, allow formoisture re-entry and retest, etc., etc., etc... In other words, it would be a long row to hoe, but would definitely give answers to everyones concerns over heat treating.I do have to agree with Terry that the experiments we do ("me" included in "we") are generally NOT sufficient to gather reliable results. First, in order to gain reliable results, you must have control groups to compare your experimental groups to. Also, "feel" is not a good measure ofcharacteristics. We must have an instrument capable of making qualityreliable measurements for comparason and those type of instruments,such as the Instron, are generally extremely expensive. Finally, just a few isn't enough. You must have enough of each sample to insure repeatability, enter results in a database of some sort, even if it's only a spreadsheet, and get average performance for each set of samples. One flamed, one blonde, one heat treated, one charcoaled, will not work... you would have to have 50flamed, 50 blonde, 50 at 300 deg/30 minutes, 50 at 300 for an hour,and so on and so on and so on. Research like this is very time consuming andcoming up with the equipment to do it would be VERY expensive.ONE LAST THING... when the Instron was torturing these strips pulling them from end to end... not one of them broke at the node. Later,Bob ----- Original Message -----From: "Don & Sandy Andersen" ; "Adam Vigil" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 3:38 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? Bill, After my heat treating experiments some years ago I was just plainconfused. from the results there seemed to be no real logical answer.Certainly one strip didn't get a whole lot better than others. And if I can remember right, the untreated test strip fell into about the middle of the pack.Do I heat treat - Yes - no reason why - Certainly others are convinced of the advantages. Just gotta see the experiments they went through todetermine the validity of their claims. Still, there is enough ballyhoo not to ignore the fact that there might just be something to the whole heat treatment thing.Till someone comes up with a reason, I guess on this one I flow with the pack. regards, Don At 09:01 AM 10/8/01 -0400, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Tony, Complicating our uncertainties on the issue of heat-treating, I would add that none of my rods have undergone heat-treating. Nor did any of those that were built by Vince Marinaro. I can't report on all the rods I have built since the 1970s, because they are dispersed all over the place. But of those I know of, none has taken a set that is any different from heat-treated rods that have also seen hard use. A couple of my rods from the '70s I still use regularly, and even they are still relatively straight (as are all of Vince's rods). I own an oven, but I have never used it. This is not because I am in any way opposed to heat-treating, but only because I haven't become convinced of the need for it. I am certainly open to more information, but on theevidence of the many rods I have built, heat-treating doesn't seem tomatter. I should add at this point, however, that I do take considerable care to heat-straighten all my strips prior to (and even during) planing--removing both the kinks in the nodes and also the long sweeps between. So, it is possible that this may have the same practical effect as a more methodical regimen of heat-treating. Additionally, in the past five years I have begun to lightly flame all my culms prior to splitting. This, too (in addition to straightening), may combine to produce the same effect as might an oven. "I just don't know" would have to describe my present state of mind. In any case, it appears to me that all the dogma we hear on one side and the other just may not be as urgent as the various proponents would have us think. More accurate on the benefits of heat-treating, perhaps, would simply be to conclude for the present: "Well, it all depends... ." I think we still don't really understand much of this with the certainty we might claim. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:59 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for? Sorry, pushed the send before I finished.What I wanted to say was Thanks Terry, I agree moisture will re enter the rod after heat treating but something else is going on too. There are an awful lot of heat treated varnished rods kicking about that don't have sets and work pretty well.I understand you saying impregnated rods will handle really bad moist/wet conditions but so will a varnished rod during fishing and you have to assume a certain amount of care is taken after fishing like not putting the rod into a wet sleeve and thrown into a boat's bilge for eg.I don't understand why there seems to be something happeningafter heat treating but observation does suggest it. Tony from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 10 08:05:59 2001 f9AD5x407536 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:05:59 - oandc@email.msn.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Trout on shovel 3B0734134C2E7DEF7F007CA7" --------------3B0734134C2E7DEF7F007CA7 Bret.I would think that shovel fishing requires more skill than fly fishingand is probably less of a strain on the resource because not as muchwater can be covered.Terry,PS. An all wood Maltster's shovel for the purist? Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Here in the Indiana/Michigan region of the Greta Lakes I have seenguys down in the streams with pitch forks spearing salmon andsteelhead. Last year there were 5 Mexican migrant workers arrested Bret --------------3B0734134C2E7DEF7F007CA7 Bret.I would think that shovel fishing requires more skill than fly fishingand is probably less of a strain on the resource because not as much watercan be covered.Terry,PS. An all wood Maltster's shovel for the purist? Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:Here inthe Indiana/Michigan region of the Greta Lakes I have seen guys down in year there were 5 Mexican migrant workers arrested for doing this in atributary to the St. Joseph River.Bret --------------3B0734134C2E7DEF7F007CA7-- from pcollin@rochester.rr.com Wed Oct 10 08:28:12 2001 f9ADSB408880 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:28:11 - f9ADQrH00584; ,, Subject: Re: Trout on shovel Since this thread just won't die, I must tell my story of shame. In the =summer of '91 I was working in the mountains of the Santa Fe national =forest in New Mexico, as a timber cruiser. We camped for a week or 2 at =a time. There was a high mountain lake full of cutthroats near our =camp. Fresh fish appealed to my partner and I more than the noodles and =other non-perishables that had become our staples. So one day I did a =harvest from the lake. The cutthroats were all in the 8 to 10 inch =range, and I assailed them with little dries with delight. I kept =hearing spashings in the shallows, which I assumed were from a mink. =Well, after a while a giant cutthroat, maybe 22 inches or so, swam right =past me in 6 inches of water. I couldn't believe it. I was a novice =fly fisher then, and the tiny dries seemed silly to tempt such a big =fish with. I craved the meat - more from the one fish than I had on my =entire stringer. So I sought to stone it. I picked up a fist sized =rock, tiptoed close to it. There was only an inch or 2 of water over =its back. I let fly and missed. A funny thing happened. The fish =swirled away from the bank, then swam back in and resumed its course in =the shallows, parralel to the shore. I tried again. I must have flung =3 or 4 rocks at that fish before it disappeared. Now, this behavior =must seem like the most crude thing a fly fisher could do. Having done =it, though, I will say this: anybody who is capable of killing a trout =with a rock should be entitled to it. It is far more challenging than =tempting it with a dry fly! Peter Collin Subject: Re: Trout on shovel I would think that shovel fishing requires more skill than fly fishing =and is probably less of a strain on the resource because not as much = Here in the Indiana/Michigan region of the Greta Lakes I have seen =guys down in the streams with pitch forks spearing salmon and steelhead. =Last year there were 5 Mexican migrant workers arrested for doing this = Bret Since this thread just won't die, I = while a giant cutthroat, maybe 22 inches or so, swam right past me in 6 = bank, then swam back in and resumed its course in the shallows, parralel = fly! Peter Collin ----- Original Message ----- T.= Cc: Michael.Roberts@health.w= ; flyfishr@istar.ca ; harms1@pa.net ; oandc@email.msn.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Wednesday, October 10, = AMSubject: Re: Trout on =shovelBret. I would think that shovel fishing requires = than fly fishing and is probably less of a strain on the resource = as much water can be covered. Terry, PS. An all wood = Grhghlndr@aol.com Indiana/Michigan region of the Greta Lakes I have seen guys down in = there were 5 Mexican migrant workers arrested for doing this in a = from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 08:34:02 2001 f9ADY0409284 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:34:00 - Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie Hi Marty,I mention this because your name always appears as "none " on my newly installed Eudora 51 client but you are the only person I ever saw this happen with, I was basically seeing if anybody else was seeing the same thing meaning Eudora 51 has an issue or maybe your email doesn't have the return name set. It was just a question I'm not suggesting you are the masked Canadian email trouble maker or anything like that. [:-)] Thanks to all who responded. Tony At 05:31 AM 10/10/01 -0400, you wrote: Hi Tony, I do not know why there is not a name in the address but I did notdo it on purpose. My Email address is there though horsesho@ptdprolog.net. Best, Marty Tony Young wrote: Not sure if everybody else is seeing this but who ever wrote thismessagehas no name in the return?I've wanted to write off list but never have a valid address to send to. Tony At 06:32 PM 10/9/01 -0400, none wrote: Hi Joe, I see no reason to make the forms any wider than 3/4"x3/4" barstock. The one I made years ago I made from Brass bars. In my opinionit's much easier to machine (as I did with hand tools) and no botherwith rust. Also it seems more flexible for a greater ability to makelarger station to station dimension changes (ie. Swelled butts). Marty /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from beadman@mac.com Wed Oct 10 09:17:02 2001 f9AEH1410904 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:17:01 - for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:15:09 - Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie I just went back and looked in my email trash folder (Eudora 4.3), and the address was "Marty " up until March 6, 2001, and beginning March 12, 2001, the address changed to "none ". Marty, this may be something simple to change in your email applications preferences. In Eudora and Netscape, it's very easy. Did you change email applicatons, or maybe update one, back March? Claude At 9:38 PM +0800 on 10/10/01, Tony Young wrote about Re: Planing form question for a newbie Hi Marty,I mention this because your name always appears as "none " on my newly installed Eudora 51 client but you are the only person I ever saw this happen with, I was basically seeing if anybody else was seeing the same thing meaning Eudora 51 has an issue or maybe your email doesn't have the return name set. It was just a question I'm not suggesting you are the masked Canadian email trouble maker or anything like that. [:-)] Thanks to all who responded. Tony At 05:31 AM 10/10/01 -0400, you wrote: Hi Tony, I do not know why there is not a name in the address but I did notdo it on purpose. My Email address is there thoughhorsesho@ptdprolog.net . Best, Marty Tony Young wrote: Not sure if everybody else is seeing this but who ever wrote thismessagehas no name in the return?I've wanted to write off list but never have a valid address to send to. Tony At 06:32 PM 10/9/01 -0400, none wrote:Hi Joe, I see no reason to make the forms any wider than 3/4"x3/4"barstock. The one I made years ago I made from Brass bars. In my opinionit's much easier to machine (as I did with hand tools) and no botherwith rust. Also it seems more flexible for a greater ability to makelarger station to station dimension changes (ie. Swelled butts). Marty /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from baconrod@gsmrinc.com Wed Oct 10 09:25:16 2001 f9AEPF411427 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:25:15 - Subject: Re: Payne 200-L Taper Jeremy.I have the taper for the Payne 200L. If you want it I will send It to you. The 200L is a 3/4 wtg It was made several ways, one using a slow taper butt and fast tip, the other using both fast butt and tip. What does your customer want.Best Hal. from RHOLDER@SMURFIT.COM Wed Oct 10 09:32:31 2001 f9AEWU411961 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:32:30 - id ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:32:36 -0500 Subject: Rod Maker ID To all that can help, I call upon the list for some help. This morning I was talking to a friendabout fishing and rod building and he asked a question that I didn't have ananswer for. So to help him and myself included I want to turn his questionover to you all. My friend wanted to know who was the well known rodbuilder from Jackson Hole, Wyoming is that build approx. 100 special rodsthat were signed by Rulon Gardner the Wrestling Gold Medallist. Thenauctioned off these rods for several thousand dollars each for a charitythey were working with. That is his question so list, fire away and see ifwe can come up with an answer. Also if you could feel me in with betterdetails then the sketchy ones I have it would be appreciated. Robert HolderWork email: rholder@smurfit.com Home email:b2g@jps.net > from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Oct 1012:16:18 2001 f9AHGH420880 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:16:17 - Subject: Media Play or Best Buy/ Not rod related of course rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Someone on the list told me awhile back that they worked for one of these places. Would you contact me off list please?Thanks,Bret Someone on the list told contact me off list please?Thanks,Bret from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Oct 10 12:43:46 2001 f9AHhj422768 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:43:45 - for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:43:25 - Subject: Fwd: FW: Afghan TV Guide MAILINZD39-1010132403; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:24:03 -0400 Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:23:23 -0400 with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:19:05 -0500 ,, , ,, ,, ,, Subject: Fwd: FW: Afghan TV Guide by hcri.org; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:11:09 -0500 id ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:15:21 -0400 RobertVerbanac@aol.com, Rimwreck@aol.com,Susan.Townes@LibertyMutual.comSubject: FW: Afghan TV Guide -----Original Message-----From: Robert_G_Mattoon@AtlanticMutual.com Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:06 PM Cc: Stacey.DeVries@LibertyMutual.comSubject: Afghan TV Guide Robert MattoonAtlantic Mutual Insurance800-444-2856, ext. 703Robert_G_Mattoon@AtlanticMutual.com----- Forwarded by Robert G Mattoon/Atlantic Companies on 10/10/200101:05PM----- "Salter, Sean" haxis.com> ,Robert G Mattoon/AtlanticCompanies@Atlantic Companies, 10/10/2001 "Chuckles (E-mail)", "Danielle 11:39 AM Hagan (E-mail)", "Drew Griffin (E-mail)", "Freedom (E-mail)" ,"Fricker (E-mail)" ,"John Kirkland (E-mail)" ,"John Weaverling (E-mail)", "Kerry Daly (E-mail)", "Mark McGowan (E-mail)", "Matt Benc (E-mail)", "'mccurdy@mindspring.com'" , "RyanKilleen (E-mail)" , "ScottCarlisle (E-mail)" , "ScottJohnson (E-mail)" , "TimKelly (E-mail)" cc: Subject: Afghan TV Guide -- Afghan TV GuideMONDAYS: 8:00 "Husseinfeld"8:30 "Mad About Everything"9:00 "Suddenly Sanctions"9:30 "The Brian Benben Bin Laden Show"10:00 "Allah McBeal"TUESDAYS:7:30 "Wheel of Terror and Fortune"8:30 "The Price is Right If Usama Says Its Right"9:00 "Children Are Forbidden from Saying The Darndest Things"9:30 "Afganistans Wackiest Public Execution Bloopers"10:00 "Buffy The Yankee Imperialist Dog Slayer"WEDNESDAYS:8:00 "U.S. Military Secrets Revealed"8:30 "When Northern Alliance Attacks"9:00 "Two Guys, a Girl, and a Pita Bread"9:30 "Just Shoot Everyone"10:00 "Veilwatch"THURSDAYS:8:00 "Matima Loves Chachi"8:30 "M*U*S*T*A*S*H"9:00 "Veronica's Closet Full of Long, Black, Shapeless Dresses and Veils" 9:30 "My Two Baghdads"10:00 "Diagnosis: Heresy"FRIDAYS:7:00 "Judge Laden"8:30 "Funniest Super 8 Home Movies"9:00 "Captured Northern Alliance Rebels Say the Darndest Things"9:30 "Achmed's Creek"10:00 "No-witness News" from oandc@email.msn.com Wed Oct 10 14:06:51 2001 f9AJ6o426309 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:06:50 - Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:06:10 -0700 Subject: Bluing forms? FILETIME=[9FF42BE0:01C151BE] I'm just finishing my forms and am contemplating a rust retardant =coating. Input appreciated. Thanks,Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 I'm just finishing my forms and am = rust retardant coating. Input appreciated. Thanks,Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = Virus Database: 150 - Release Date:9/25/01 from DNHayashida@aol.com Wed Oct 10 14:32:20 2001 f9AJWJ427854 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:32:19 - for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:32:10 - Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? Since my post about making the unheat treated rod I've been getting emails from several people asking about how I heat treat my bamboo and why.Instead of writing the same thing over and over I think it might be better to put it on the list for all to see. I did a series of experiments with heat treating, all the way from no heat treatment at all up to triple flaming a culm and making a rod out of it. You see all the experiments on single strips or sections of strips are fine to give us an idea of where to start, but my reasoning is "How does it perform as a rod?" The heat treatment I settled on is flaming. I flame the inside pith side of a half culm and then wire brush away the charcoaled pith. All I ever have left to make a rod is the what I call power fibers, but I know "power fibers" means different things to different people. Does this damage the (power) fibers? Probably yes - but I would much rather have a dry fly rod that is stiff and springy that (maybe) lasts half as long as a rod that is soft and slow because it wasn't heat treated as much (I do have a couple nymphing/soft hackle rods that are purposely made to beslow). If my rods give out on me 25 years from now instead of lasting 50 or 100 years, that's fine, I'll just make new ones. I'll probably have made new ones in the meantime anyway. One of the advantages of making them yourself. Darryl Hayashida Sincemy post about making the unheat treated rod I've been getting emails fromseveral people asking about how I heat treat my bamboo and why. Instead ofwriting the same thing over and over I think it might be better to put it onthe list for all to see. I did a series of experiments with heat treating, all the way from noheat treatment at all up to triple flaming a culm and making a rod out of it.You see all the experiments on single strips or sections of strips are fine togive us an idea of where to start, but my reasoning is "How does it performas a rod?" The heat treatment I settled on is flaming. I flame the inside pith sideof a half culm and then wire brush away the charcoaled pith. All I ever haveleft to make a rod is the what I call power fibers, but I know "power fibers"means different things to different people. Does this damage the (power) fibers? Probably yes - but I would muchrather have a dry fly rod that is stiff and springy that (maybe) lasts half aslong as a rod that is soft and slow because it wasn't heat treated as much (Ido have a couple nymphing/soft hackle rods that are purposely made to beslow). If my rods give out on me 25 years from now instead of lasting 50 or100 years, that's fine, I'll just make new ones. I'll probably have made newones in the meantime anyway. One of the advantages of making themyourself. Darryl Hayashida from jteft@frontiernet.net Wed Oct 10 14:55:40 2001 232.frontiernet.net [66.133.130.232] (may be forged)) f9AJte429298 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:55:40 - sender ) Subject: Fiberglass Rod Can anyone tell me where I might get line wt info on a H-I Model 1220 =81/2 ft 3pc Fiber Rod ?Thanks ! Can anyone tell me where I might get line wt info on = Thanks ! from oandc@email.msn.com Wed Oct 10 15:25:11 2001 f9AKPA401039 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:25:10 - Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:24:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie FILETIME=[8FBE3C10:01C151C9] Are we having fun yet? I'm just finishing my forms. I've made them from =1" x3/4" cold rolled steel. Someone not to long ago estimated 40 hours, =maybemore, to make steel forms. I believe I've spent closer to sixty 60 hours =onmine. Filing the grooves seemed to take longer than surfacing. I'm down =to 3or 4 thousands on the grooves and will finish with a triangle stone. Ifanyone out there knows a source for a good accurate one let me know. As =tomaking your own forms, I definitely recommend it. I started knowing I =wouldlove making bamboo rods. Accordingly, I do not mind the time spent =makingthe forms. For someone less sure, I now clearly see this as an =appropriateexercise in determining the patience necessary for the craft. Maybe also =alittle like paying your dues. I'm now considering a second set of 6'expanded butt forms out of 3/4" x 3/4" stock. I may graduate to an =expensiveset down the line but for a guy like me, it would be hard to replace thesatisfaction of building my first rods with tools I also built. One =questionI have at this point is coating or bluing the forms to retard rust. I =wouldwelcome input from those in the know on the subject.Wayne----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Planing form question for a newbie Hi Jon -- I'm also a newbie, but following this list for over a year. A great = place to be, for sure. I'm currently making my forms from 1" square bar. The bolts and = dowelsthat I purchased cost me 37 dollars with our company "discount". I am = making 6 foot long forms, so not only are there longer bolts to consider, but = two extra stations. There are several downers to the bars that I started with, and could = hityou as well. 1. As you are filing your bars flat, you have 2" worth of metal to = evenup, 33% more than if you used the 3/4" keystock.2. The bars are 1026, harder than necessary. I should have purchased = mild steel which would have been easier to hand work.3. The bars lived on a rack outdoors for several years, and the = pitting present has required a WHOLE LOT of hours with file in hand. Thissquaring/flattening phase is not all that fun. The first 20 hours = were,but not any more.4. These buggers are HEAVY in a serious sense. The extra rigidity isprobably not necessary, as your plane is going to follow the top of = the forms even if they are slightly bowed. Your strips should stay on dimension unless you have some serious doglegs or other obvious geometrical = flaws. I think the only way I am going to finish these forms is to take them = toone of our 3rd party machine shops and have them surface ground to a 32 = RMS finish, and then hand finish it from there. Then all I'll have to do = isto make the tapered grooves on each side. I've procrastinated way too = longon this project, and I need to just get them done so the real fun can = start. -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 3:28 PM Subject: Planing form question for a newbie Hello all! This is my very first time posting, and I admit that Iam the newest of newbies. In fact, I have not yetmade a bamboo rod, or even fished with one for thatmatter. I have fished plastics for about 8 years, andI confess that I kind of like the two that I have--flyfishing is fun in my book regardless of the material.I saltwater fish for tuna as well, so I fish forwhatever is fun. In any case, I have recently purchased and readthrough (more like studied) Garrison and Cattanach. Iread that people recommend other books as beingbetter, and I will likely get them also. I wasplanning on buying many of my tools, but then decidedto make my planing forms. Which brings me to my question..... I have studied the method and layouts that areavailable in the books that I have as well as thoseavailable on Thomas Penrose's website. None of themseamed to be ideal in my mind, so I mixed and matchedthe configurations to get what I wanted. I should addhere that I haven't made them yet, I am only layingthem out at this point. At first look I thought thatit would be better if the planing forms were widerthan those that I saw. So, I drew out a set using 1"X 1 1/2" bar stock. But when I went to price thedowel pins and shoulder bolts for this, I thoughtagain. Currently, I am considering making them from1" X 1" stock. Ok, now for my question for real.... Is there any benefit to having wider planing forms?Or is there a reason that I should keep them smallerlike those I see on Thomas Penrose's website (3/4" X3/4" stock)? Thanks in advance for any replies. No worriesreplying in techinical terms as I have a Masters inEngineering. Oh, while I am at it, I have another question. Arethere any rod maker meetings in Southern California(I'm in San Diego)? Or maybe a rod maker that youknow of in San Diego that would be willing to show mea trick from time to time? That's all for now, Jon Burningham __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 Are we having fun yet? I'm just finishing my forms. I've made them = x3/4" cold rolled steel. Someone not to long ago estimated 40 hours, = maybemore, to make steel forms. I believe I've spent closer to sixty = hours onmine. Filing the grooves seemed to take longer than = down to 3or 4 thousands on the grooves and will finish with a = stone. Ifanyone out there knows a source for a good accurate one let = know. As tomaking your own forms, I definitely recommend it. I = knowing I wouldlove making bamboo rods. Accordingly, I do not mind = spent makingthe forms. For someone less sure, I now clearly see this = appropriateexercise in determining the patience necessary for the = Maybe also alittle like paying your dues. I'm now considering a = of 6'expanded butt forms out of 3/4" x 3/4" stock. I may graduate to = expensiveset down the line but for a guy like me, it would be hard = replace thesatisfaction of building my first rods with tools I also = One questionI have at this point is coating or bluing the forms to = subject.Wayne----- Original Message -----From: "Miller, =Troy" <Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.c= "Rodmakers" <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, October 09, 2001 6:57 PMSubject: RE: Planing form question= = = = and I need to just get them done so the real fun can = Which = seamed = mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 from Kengorific@aol.com Wed Oct 10 16:52:18 2001 f9ALqH405160 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:52:17 - for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:51:58 - Subject: winston taper My favorite rod maker among the 'plastic' rods by far is Winston. I own a 3wt LT 5pc rod and really like how it flexes well into the lower sections. I have never had the oportunity to play with the bamboo rods that this fine company makes. Does anyone on the list have experience with Winstonbamboo? Does anyone have a taper for a 3,4 or 5 wt rod they would share with me? from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Wed Oct 10 17:00:13 2001 f9AM0C405777 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:00:12 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:50:59 -0500 Subject: RE: Bluing forms? Wayne -- I have been putting Boeshield on them since I started filing them, and no"new" rust is apparent. When you look at the forms that the pros are using,they are slightly oxidized on the outside faces (where the bolts are), andon the inside faces between the grooves. The top and bottom surfaces staypretty shiny as the sole of the plane rides on those surfaces constantly. If you finish up a rod and then plan to take a break, I would treat theforms as I would a gun to be stored. Wipe all the fingerprints off, thenapply a protectant of some sort. I never rely on the bluing to keep my guns from rusting long term. It's there to protect the metal during use. Theoil keeps moisture from oxidizing the metal over the long term in storage.The concept of storing in your boiler room or next to the water heater is agood one. The humidity level will be relatively low in these heated areas.MHO -- TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: Bluing forms? I'm just finishing my forms and am contemplating a rust retardant coating.Input appreciated. Thanks,Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system ( http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 from horsesho@ptd.net Wed Oct 10 17:22:41 2001 f9AMMe406638 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:22:40 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4164. . Clean. Processed in 0.697653 secs); 10 Oct 200122:22:43 -0000 Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie I will fix it. Sorry to get everybody "worked up"! Marty Claude Freaner wrote: I just went back and looked in my email trash folder (Eudora 4.3),and the address was "Marty " up until March 6,2001, and beginning March 12, 2001, the address changed to "none". Marty, this may be something simple to changein your email applications preferences. In Eudora and Netscape, it'svery easy. Did you change email applicatons, or maybe update one,back March? Claude At 9:38 PM +0800 on 10/10/01, Tony Young wrote about Re: Planing formquestion for a newbie Hi Marty,I mention this because your name always appears as "none " on mynewly installed Eudora 51 client but you are the only person I eversaw this happen with, I was basically seeing if anybody else wasseeing the same thing meaning Eudora 51 has an issue or maybe youremail doesn't have the return name set. It was just a question I'mnot suggesting you are the masked Canadian email trouble maker oranything like that. [:-)] Thanks to all who responded. Tony At 05:31 AM 10/10/01 -0400, you wrote: Hi Tony, I do not know why there is not a name in the address but I didnotdo it on purpose. My Email address is there thoughhorsesho@ptdprolog.net . Best, Marty Tony Young wrote: Not sure if everybody else is seeing this but who ever wrote thismessagehas no name in the return?I've wanted to write off list but never have a valid address to send to. Tony At 06:32 PM 10/9/01 -0400, none wrote:Hi Joe, I see no reason to make the forms any wider than 3/4"x3/4"barstock. The one I made years ago I made from Brass bars. In myopinionit's much easier to machine (as I did with hand tools) and no botherwith rust. Also it seems more flexible for a greater ability to makelarger station to station dimension changes (ie. Swelled butts). Marty /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 10 17:32:28 2001 f9AMWR407304 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:32:27 - for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:32:20 - Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie Wayne, I got my stone from McMaster-Carr. All of them I've ever seen are made = which I suspect is the norm. Triangle files, on the other hand seem to =be normally un-equilateral. M-D SNIP I'm down to 3 or 4 thousands on the grooves and will finish with a =triangle stone. If AND SNIP AGAIN Wayne Wayne, I got my stone from = fortunately it was dead-on 60=B0, which I suspect is the norm. Triangle = the other hand seem to be normally un-equilateral. M-D SNIP I'm down to 3 or 4 thousands on the grooves and will finish with = triangle stone. Ifanyone out there knows a source for a good = let me know. AND SNIP AGAIN Wayne from oandc@email.msn.com Wed Oct 10 17:42:09 2001 f9AMg9407839 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:42:09 - Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:41:29 -0700 Subject: Fw: Bluing forms? FILETIME=[B3D76FA0:01C151DC] I have considered chrome. Ray Gould suggests it in his book. Do you know =offhand what the thickness of the chrome plating? I would imagine one =would have to take the grooves down an equal amount to compensate or =refile the grooves afterward. Ideas?Wayne Subject: Re: Bluing forms? Several folks in the Los Angeles Area have had theirs hard-chromed. = ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 I have considered chrome. Ray Gould = his book. Do you know offhand what the thickness of the chrome plating? = imagine one would have to take the grooves down an equal amount to = refile the grooves afterward. Ideas?Wayne From: Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 1:55 PMSubject: Re: Bluing forms? Several folks in the = chromed they are not very shiny. Chris ---Outgoing= certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: =9/25/01 from oandc@email.msn.com Wed Oct 10 18:03:05 2001 f9AN34408673 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:03:04 - Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:03:11 -0700 Subject: Fw: Planing form question for a newbie FILETIME=[BC406C20:01C151DF] Thanks for the input,I'll check with McMaster-Carr, assuming they have a web site, if I can't =find a Norton locally. My files were not exactly dead on so I left the =grooves about 4 thousands short of finished. That should leave enough to =correct with the stone by the time I get to the finished depth. I'm new =to triangle stones. Is there a preferred size to request? Thanks again, Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie Wayne, I got my stone from McMaster-Carr. All of them I've ever seen are made = which I suspect is the norm. Triangle files, on the other hand seem to =be normally un-equilateral. M-D SNIP I'm down to 3 or 4 thousands on the grooves and will finish with a =triangle stone. If AND SNIP AGAIN Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 Thanks for the input,I'll check with McMaster-Carr, assuming= web site, if I can't find a Norton locally. My files were not exactly = I'm new to triangle stones. Is there a preferred size to request? Thanks = again, From:Jojo DeLancier = Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 3:31 PMSubject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie Wayne, I got my stone from = fortunately it was dead-on 60=B0, which I suspect is the norm. Triangle = the other hand seem to be normally un-equilateral. M-D SNIP I'm down to 3 or 4 thousands on the grooves and will finish with = triangle stone. Ifanyone out there knows a source for a good = let me know. AND SNIP AGAIN Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = 9/25/01 from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 10 18:10:20 2001 f9ANAJ409144 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:10:19 - (authenticated) Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:10:07 -0700 Subject: Re: Bluing forms? "Miller, Troy" wrote: If you finish up a rod and then plan to take a break, I would treat theforms as I would a gun to be stored. Wipe all the fingerprints off, thenapply a protectant of some sort. I never rely on the bluing to keep myguns from rusting long term. It's there to protect the metal during use. Theoil keeps moisture from oxidizing the metal over the long term in storage.The concept of storing in your boiler room or next to the water heater is agood one. The humidity level will be relatively low in these heated areas. Wayne,Troy's advise on storage makes sense to me. I suspect that bluing oroxidizing the forms would not last long. My forms tend to get nicked upprettygood, and the process of re-surfacing that I do after 6-8 rods woulddefinitelytake off all the bluing. Guess I'm low-tech 'cause I just use good ole 3 in 1 oil on mine. Well, atleast I have good intentions of using it. Most of the time, I just let them getrusty and sand them down a little!! The hundreds of folks who saw mine thisweekend at the Southern FFF Conclave can attest to more than a few rustspots.But they still make good fishin' poles. Harry--Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 10 18:29:43 2001 f9ANTg409915 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:29:43 - Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Barry,I once had a rod returned to me by Codella because a customer said it wassoft.The guy had the rod for a couple of years and had not complained before. Ichecked it out and it was amazing, I could have tied it in a knot. This wascaneheat treated @ 375F for .75hr! I tried to dry it out but I ended up making anew rod.I did not think too much on how the rod became so soft, I was justembarrassedand wanted to fix it as soon as possible.I put the new rod in the tube and when I slipped the rod into the mailing tube Inoticed that the brass cap on the bottom of the aluminium tube was blackandcorroded as if it had been in water for a long time.I called up the owner of the rod and we talked about how the rod was storedandwhen I suggested that the rod had been in water he started to stutter like abastard.The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a cap thatsomehowhad water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was juststored ina very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid westIf I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sent it backto him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing topreventmoisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry Kling, Barry W. wrote: I should probably keep quiet, but.... from all I've seen and read, there aretwo purposes for heat treating. One is to remove moisture. But that istemporary to some degree. By far the more important purpose is toactuallychange the structure of the bamboo so that the parts of the bamboo thataremost critical to a rod's action are no longer made limp when exposed towater. Milward's book suggests this occurs when the cane (not just thesurface) darkens slightly. Too much darkening can actually damage thefibers(though perhapd not critically if not taken too far) This doesn't mean nowater is absorbed by such a rod, though I believe most well designed testsshow it's less than for untreated bamboo. But it means that whateverwateris absorbed after tempering, it doesn't change the action very much, if atall. I don't think this is much of a mystery. Other listers have commented thatit's well known that woods change internal structure when heat tempered.Milward's book goes a long way toward proving it for bambboo. And we allknow two critical facts - no finish can keep a rod from absorbing watereventually (and we even have heard extreme examples like rods recoveredafter being awash for weeks) and most rods in spite of this don't varyperceptibly when they are fished on a humid Midwestern pond and then ahighdry mountain stream, after plenty of time to gradually accommodate toambient humidity. Granted, there are rods that are "heat treated" but not enough to changethestructure. These are the ones that act like wet noodles when wet and thenbehave when dry. No mystery in that - it simply means they were neveradequately tempered to the extent that the internal structure changed. I don't mean to sound like there's no mystery to any of this, but the basicpractical question of why we do it and what we're trying to accomplish is, Ibelieve, fairly well answered. Flame away! Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 1:06 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm sorry I have to put words in your mouth with this statement.To reiterate, what exactly, is heat treating for? For the statedobjectives that I have heard, it doesn't really sound like an option. Ifheat treating really does remove moisture and result in a stiffer cane,and a slight weight reduction, are you saying that there are rods tobuild out there where these characteristics are not desired or required?Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm not certain there is a better or worse way of doing all this it'sjustthat the different methods give different results and you need toexperiment and see what you like.Once you see what you like do it the same way every time, there are alotof methods you just need to choose one. Tony At 10:07 AM 10/7/01 -0700, Wayne Kifer wrote: My understanding is that we should definitely heat treat but I'mleaning toward a lengthily seasoning to slowly lower the moisturecontent to under 6%. from everything I've learned from the wisdom onthe list this will create a stronger strip. The task would seem to beto control the reintroduction of moisture in the finished rod. The jury still seems to be out on how to accomplish this. At least those in theknow aren't giving up their secrets. Wayne :^)----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:54 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Sure sounds like maybe we shouldn't be heat treating eh? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Fw: Optimum moisture content I would think it would be an indication of equal stresses, andaccordingly strength, throughout the length of the strip. Definitelydesirable. Wayne----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:32 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Do you think that the bending in a smoother curve would bedesirable? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Patrick WSent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:18 AM oandc@email.msn.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content there is a difference between air drying and kiln drying (heattreating). I have a piece of bamboo D. Holbrook gave me in 1970 that was never heat treated and it is just as stiff as the ones that Iheat treat except it seems to bend in a smoother curve. My boss at theviolin shop told me it was like making Jell-O in either a icebox orthe oven, they both come out at Jell-O but are totally different intexture. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:48 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content This heat treating stuff really is a strange one isn't it? Terrysays no matter what coating you use if the rod is left with a wet rag in atube it'll become spaghetti. The US dept of Forrestry (or whatever it's name is) say heating wood in no way hardens it so even though spear points used by ancientcultures seem very hard after carbonising there isn't a scientific reason toexpect this even though I've lived around people who do still livethe old ways and their spear points _look_ and _feel_ harder thanthey were before carbonising them in fires and if the spear gets wet the point always seems to get hard again upon drying. Aboriginals of Australia have a reputation what canbe a savage place to live so if they've been carbonising spearpoints for 40,000 years I think it's worth noting. Then again you can drive the moisture out by vacuum or even steam. If you steam heat timber for bending you'll have a different texture to the wood after steaming it than before and if you use kiln driedtimber it'll behave differently to naturaly dried timber. Usinggreen wood is normallybest but in any case you usually don't get two chances at bending using steam. If you don't get it first time you'll normally break the laminate next time you try. You also notice that broken laminates that havebeen steamed have a different texture beyond simply raised grain,break differently (they will normally break along the grain in amore pronouncedmanner) and are drier than the sister laminates that have not beensteamed. If you heat treat bamboo before planing as you normally would whenmaking nodeless rods it's a _lot_ harder to plane than if you planethe bamboo "green" or even wet as you do when making the rodnormally and this is thecase even if the bamboo is left for months after being heat treatedwhich suggests to me heat treating does do something which isirreversible. It'sjust too difficult for me to believe the cells and chemicals making up thebamboo aren't permanently altered by heating so it would be veryinteresting indeed to compare drying by heat and vacuum as the vacuum wouldnot alter the chemicals or not in the say way though the cells would be ruptured.Just compare freeze dried ice cream you can buy for backpacking with what you'd get if you tried drying ice cream in an oven. It's adifferent operation. The bamboo does become useless when wet but once it dries again I'dthink it would go back to the way it was after heat treating and not as it was before heat treating. As an aside, when a rod is impregnated is it done by vacuum followed pressurized then the addition of the media or pressurized with themedia? Tony At 06:26 AM 10/7/01 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: A pressure chamber is of little value, what you need is a vacuumchamber. Driving whatever glop you prefer into the blank takes only about 10-15 minutes at 30"hg vacuum. That way the rod is notsoaked through and it is not as heavy. I always tried to get in to about .006-.008" deep. As an aside the chamber would be an excellent way to run anexperiment to see what percentage of the improvement due to heattreating can be attributed to the heating and polymerization andhow much is due to the simple drying out of the cane. An hour or two in the vacuum tankwill dry the cane out without heat. Hot dog! What a can of worms! A.J. From: "Wayne Kifer" Subject: Optimum moisture contentDate: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:14:09 -0700 I understand that the only way to prevent moisture gain in a rodwould beto impregnate the glued sections prior to applying the finish.Exotic woods and other materials such as mastodon ivory, and dearand elk antler slabs used for knife handles are impregnated under pressure. Might not an acceptable result be obtained if the sections were dried to lessthan 6Ÿ moisture content and heated in a vacuum to expand the cellstructure to enhance absorption of a sealing compound introduced into thevacuum chamber? A much less expensive setup to build than apressure chamber I would think. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 18:33:53 2001 f9ANXp410208 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:33:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line Sean,Whoa, too bad. They looked pretty good because I thought they'd be less inclined to foul when using a v long leader with a big one on. Thanks but no thanks on the offer [:-)] Tony At 06:15 PM 10/10/01 +1000, Sean McSharry wrote: Tony: Yes, I have used those line connectors. One did pull out - theline end. The risk with them is to leave them on and not renew the knotat least annually particularly on the line end. Also, for older rods,say with tip top guides with an agate insert; the damn thing gets stuckif you wind the line in at too acute an angle. No problem to be havingif you are serious about landing a large one. So I have given up onthem. If anyone wants my small supply of connectors, let me know! Sean Tony Young wrote: I'll give this a go, I normally use the inchworm over the line with wiping(I've become VERY paranoid about loosing lines when I had one head forAfrica when the nail knot stripped the line to the core). Always worthtrying a new method.Anybody out there using those plastic cucumber shaped things you usetoconnect the leader to the line with using a knot the get constricted insidethe device?They _look_ good and I'm using them now and haven't had problems buthaven't had anything of any size to try them out yet. Tony MD: Thanks. Not sure this will work with silk, though. I lean towards aneedle knot for that with a bit of wader repair to seal it. sean Jojo DeLancier wrote: Here is what I posted off-list to another list member. Nunley has pointed out to me that CA's are damaging to fly lines, and I had heard that from other sources. I believe that the type of CA may have something to do with this, and therefore use only the ZAP adhesive recommended by Umpqua. In the years since I've been using the CA to attach backing and leader I've never had a failure, nor notice any cracking of the line, crazing, etc. I gothrough a couple of leaders in a year, so it may be that I'm cutting away any damaged portions of the line before they have a chance to causeproblems. I get put into the backing several times a year, but still have not noticed anything amiss with the connection, and have not had anyfailures there, either. ************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 18:34:01 2001 f9ANXx410245 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:33:59 - Subject: Re: Trout on shovel ,, If you're out there Ian, what do you think would happen to you if you were caught doing any of this or shooting a trout in NZ ? Tony At 09:30 AM 10/10/01 -0400, Peter A. Collin wrote: Since this thread just won't die, I must tell my story of shame. In the summer of '91 I was working in the mountains of the Santa Fe national forest in New Mexico, as a timber cruiser. We camped for a week or 2 at a time. There was a high mountain lake full of cutthroats near our camp. Fresh fish appealed to my partner and I more than the noodles and other non-perishables that had become our staples. So one day I did a harvest from the lake. The cutthroats were all in the 8 to 10 inch range, and I assailed them with little dries with delight. I kept hearing spashings in the shallows, which I assumed were from a mink. Well, after a while a giant cutthroat, maybe 22 inches or so, swam right past me in 6 inches of water. I couldn't believe it. I was a novice fly fisher then, and the tiny dries seemed silly to tempt such a big fish with. I craved the meat - more from the one fish than I had on my entire stringer. So I sought to stone it. I picked up a fist sized rock, tiptoed close to it. There was only an inch or 2 of water over its back. I let fly and missed. A funny thing happened. The fish swirled away from the bank, then swam back in and resumed its course in the shallows, parralel to the shore. I tried again. I must have flung 3 or 4 rocks at that fish before it disappeared. Now, this behavior must seem like the most crude thing a fly fisher could do. Having done it, though, I will say this: anybody who is capable of killing a trout with a rock should be entitled to it. It is far more challenging than tempting it with a dry fly! Peter Collin----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au >; flyfishr@istar.ca ; harms1@pa.net ; oandc@email.msn.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 9:07 AMSubject: Re: Trout on shovel Bret.I would think that shovel fishing requires more skill than fly fishing and is probably less of a strain on the resource because not as much water can be covered.Terry,PS. An all wood Maltster's shovel for the purist? Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Here in the Indiana/Michigan region of the Greta Lakes I have seen guys down in the streams with pitch forks spearing salmon and steelhead. Last year there were 5 Mexican migrant workers arrested for doing this in a tributary to the St. Joseph River.Bret /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from dpeaston@wzrd.com Wed Oct 10 18:47:01 2001 f9ANl0411036 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:47:00 - for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:47:03 - for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:47:01 - Subject: re: planing forms Jon, Tony's plan is really elegant and allows you to make "push-pull" forms. Theonly thing that I changed from his instructions is to make a 60* scrapertool from a center gage and to follow the instructions on Thomas Penrose'ssite for making the groove. I just didn't feel competent to hold a jackplane to a precise 30*. -Doug At 02:04 PM 10/10/01 +0800, Tony Young wrote: Take a look at my page, there are instructions on making adjustable wooden forms that I'm still using and a few others have made. If you take care making them they'll work just fine for a long time. They cost about $40 and take about 4hrs to make. Tony At 09:07 PM 10/9/01 -0600, channer wrote: Jon;Making your own forms, while surely is proof of your commitment, is alsosome serious drudgery. I would recomend that you make your first set outof maple, 3/4"x3/4", it will go much quicker, be just as useable and notwear you out to the point that your sick of the whole thing before youeven start. If you are reasonably careful with your final planingtheywill last quite q while before you have to re-surface them and by thattime you will know if you want to continue making rods or not. If you goon, then make a set out of steel, or buy a set. Or you could start rightout with a block plane with a groove in the sole, in which case yourwooden forms will last indefinietly.John(btw, I made 7 rods on the wooden forms I made, then another dozen and ahalf on the steel ones I made and now use a set that I bought) /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 10 19:17:17 2001 f9B0HH412344 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:17:17 -0500 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:17:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Terry, My understanding of what the books refer to is that bamboo, once heattreated to a point of chemical change, can never hold the amount ofintercellular moisture it once did. Free moisture, however, as in yourexample, is readily re-absorbed by the cane. I have done that test myself.Bamboo, whether heat treated or not, will adsorb into equilibrium with theatmosphere, though the amount of absorption will vary, depending upon theamount of chemical change that was induced. M-D SNIP The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a cap that somehow had water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was just stored in a very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid westIf I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sent it back to him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing to prevent moisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Oct 10 19:17:53 2001 f9B0Hq412458 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:17:52 - Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content In a message dated 10/10/1 11:31:20 PM, hexagon@odyssee.net writes: Terry - I never interpreted anything said on this subject to say that heat treated cane won't reabsorb any water. In normal atsmopheric conditions, it just doesn't reabsorb as much, and I doubt that the difference is more thana few percent. If you insist on storing a rod in a steam bath, or under water, maybe the same thing doesn't happen, or maybe it does. When you saturatethe stuff, and the moisture content is in the 50% or more range, whatdifference does a couple percent make? Either way you could tie the rod in a knot. Should this kind of misfortune befall anyone, the worst thing you can do is try to dry the rod quickly. The outer portion of the cane will dry out and shrink, causing splits because the core of the rod will still be wet and swollen. Let the rod slowly dry out in a basement, or maybe even in a plastic bag.. from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 10 19:28:15 2001 f9B0SE413330 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:28:14 - (may be forged)) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content TomI tried drying it out slowly, I tried turning up the heat and I could not get therod back to how it was. Did not notice any splitting.Terry TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/10/1 11:31:20 PM, hexagon@odyssee.net writes: prevent moisture penetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate. >> Terry - I never interpreted anything said on this subject to say that heattreated cane won't reabsorb any water. In normal atsmopheric conditions,itjust doesn't reabsorb as much, and I doubt that the difference is morethan afew percent. If you insist on storing a rod in a steam bath, or under water,maybe the same thing doesn't happen, or maybe it does. When yousaturate thestuff, and the moisture content is in the 50% or more range, whatdifferencedoes a couple percent make? Either way you could tie the rod in a knot.Should this kind of misfortune befall anyone, the worst thing you can do istry to dry the rod quickly. The outer portion of the cane will dry out andshrink, causingsplits because the core of the rod will still be wet and swollen. Let the rodslowly dry out in a basement, or maybe even in a plastic bag.. from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 10 19:40:36 2001 f9B0eZ414316 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:40:35 -0500 (may be forged)) Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content JoJo,you will have to explain the chemical changes that may or may not take placewhen cane is heat treated, I have just never noticed any of this!The only changes I have noticed is in perhaps the pithy part of the cane whichgets brittle and difficult to plane when freshly heat treated.Terry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Terry, My understanding of what the books refer to is that bamboo, once heattreated to a point of chemical change, can never hold the amount ofintercellular moisture it once did. Free moisture, however, as in yourexample, is readily re-absorbed by the cane. I have done that test myself.Bamboo, whether heat treated or not, will adsorb into equilibrium with theatmosphere, though the amount of absorption will vary, depending upon theamount of chemical change that was induced. M-D From: "T. Ackland" SNIP The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a cap that somehow had water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was just stored in a very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid westIf I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sent it back to him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing to prevent moisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry from jbbamboo47@yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 19:41:29 2001 f9B0fS414501 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:41:28 - Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:41:31 PDT Subject: 212 thanks to all for the 212 taper jim bailey __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 19:42:53 2001 f9B0gp414777 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:42:51 - "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: re: planing forms Doug's right, this is a better way to do it. When I wrote the instructions I forgot most people wouldn't have a plane with a 24" sole (I make my own planes) which allows you to make the bevel in about 3 or 4 passes on each side failing that the scraper idea is the way to go but even then the forms could be made in a few hrs.They work well though and worth a try. Tony At 07:46 PM 10/10/01 -0400, Douglas P. Easton wrote: Jon, Tony's plan is really elegant and allows you to make "push-pull" forms. Theonly thing that I changed from his instructions is to make a 60* scrapertool from a center gage and to follow the instructions on Thomas Penrose'ssite for making the groove. I just didn't feel competent to hold a jackplane to a precise 30*. -Doug At 02:04 PM 10/10/01 +0800, Tony Young wrote: Take a look at my page, there are instructions on making adjustablewoodenforms that I'm still using and a few others have made. If you take caremaking them they'll work just fine for a long time. They cost about $40andtake about 4hrs to make. Tony At 09:07 PM 10/9/01 -0600, channer wrote: Jon;Making your own forms, while surely is proof of your commitment, isalsosome serious drudgery. I would recomend that you make your first setoutof maple, 3/4"x3/4", it will go much quicker, be just as useable and notwear you out to the point that your sick of the whole thing before youeven start. If you are reasonably careful with your final planingtheywill last quite q while before you have to re-surface them and by thattime you will know if you want to continue making rods or not. If you goon, then make a set out of steel, or buy a set. Or you could start rightout with a block plane with a groove in the sole, in which case yourwooden forms will last indefinietly.John(btw, I made 7 rods on the wooden forms I made, then another dozenand ahalf on the steel ones I made and now use a set that I bought) /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from jbbamboo47@yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 19:47:41 2001 f9B0le415329 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:47:40 - Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:47:43 PDT Subject: taper does anyone have 6-6 ft taper for a garrison? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Oct 10 19:53:02 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9B0r1415728 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:53:01 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:52:57 -0500 Subject: RE: winston taper My feelings exactly. I tried last year to get Winston to share their tapersbut they wouldn't. I guess I can't blame them. Anyway I've never cast one oftheir bamboo rods and would love to see some tapers if anyone has any, orhas a rod they'd be willing to mic. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: winston taper My favorite rod maker among the 'plastic' rods by far is Winston. I own a3wt LT 5pc rod and really like how it flexes well into the lower sections.I have never had the oportunity to play with the bamboo rods that this finecompany makes. Does anyone on the list have experience with Winstonbamboo?Does anyone have a taper for a 3,4 or 5 wt rod they would share with me? from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Oct 10 19:53:04 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9B0r3415735 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:53:03 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:53:01 -0500 Subject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content Terry - I can see how you would interpret it that way, but I believe you've drawn abroader conclusion than the experience warrants, especially since some ofthose books seem to be based on real experience, too. Here's an explanationthat could account for your story without concluding that heat treatment isuseless. Suppose heat treating changes the structure of the bamboo in such a waythatsome of the tissues no longer absorb water readily, and in ways that make astrip stiffer and stronger. It may also enhance its tendency to dampvibration, though I haven't seen anything systematic on that. But anyway, itchanges the structure in ways that make it better for making rods.Relatively short term exposure to very wet conditions will not make such arod into a noodle (as many people's experience attests), though I'm not sureit would have no effect at all. Even being in damp Midwestern air for weeksat a time here in Missouri doesn't make it soft. But if someone stores a rodin a saturated atmosphere, perhaps also with heat, for long enough, it'spossible for the structures in the bamboo (including those that had beenaltered by heat) to begin to break down due to long term swelling or eventhe action of bacteria. I'll bet that tube stank when he opened it. Anyway,it's perfectly consistent to think that heat treating makes bamboo better the bamboo in ways that made it useless and limp. to heat and might explain the occasional rod that seems an exception to therule (not that this applies to your instance, since I'm sure the rod wasfine when you shipped it out). Barry PS As far as I'm concerned, anyone who can't take a little shovel- fishingaction along with discussions like this one, and like the others I've seenlately on basic issues like making forms and the minimum gear needed tomakerods - well, it just gives me one more good idea about where to shove ashovel. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Barry,I once had a rod returned to me by Codella because a customer said it wassoft.The guy had the rod for a couple of years and had not complained before. Ichecked it out and it was amazing, I could have tied it in a knot. This wascaneheat treated @ 375F for .75hr! I tried to dry it out but I ended up makinganew rod.I did not think too much on how the rod became so soft, I was justembarrassedand wanted to fix it as soon as possible.I put the new rod in the tube and when I slipped the rod into the mailingtube Inoticed that the brass cap on the bottom of the aluminium tube was blackandcorroded as if it had been in water for a long time.I called up the owner of the rod and we talked about how the rod was storedandwhen I suggested that the rod had been in water he started to stutter like abastard.The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a cap thatsomehowhad water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was juststored ina very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid westIf I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sent itbackto him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing topreventmoisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry Kling, Barry W. wrote: I should probably keep quiet, but.... from all I've seen and read, there are two purposes for heat treating. One is to remove moisture. But that istemporary to some degree. By far the more important purpose is toactuallychange the structure of the bamboo so that the parts of the bamboo that are most critical to a rod's action are no longer made limp when exposed towater. Milward's book suggests this occurs when the cane (not just thesurface) darkens slightly. Too much darkening can actually damage the fibers (though perhapd not critically if not taken too far) This doesn't mean nowater is absorbed by such a rod, though I believe most well designed testsshow it's less than for untreated bamboo. But it means that whateverwateris absorbed after tempering, it doesn't change the action very much, if atall. I don't think this is much of a mystery. Other listers have commented thatit's well known that woods change internal structure when heat tempered.Milward's book goes a long way toward proving it for bambboo. And we allknow two critical facts - no finish can keep a rod from absorbing watereventually (and we even have heard extreme examples like rods recoveredafter being awash for weeks) and most rods in spite of this don't varyperceptibly when they are fished on a humid Midwestern pond and then a high dry mountain stream, after plenty of time to gradually accommodate toambient humidity. Granted, there are rods that are "heat treated" but not enough to change the structure. These are the ones that act like wet noodles when wet and thenbehave when dry. No mystery in that - it simply means they were neveradequately tempered to the extent that the internal structure changed. I don't mean to sound like there's no mystery to any of this, but the basic practical question of why we do it and what we're trying to accomplish is, I believe, fairly well answered. Flame away! Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 1:06 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm sorry I have to put words in your mouth with this statement.To reiterate, what exactly, is heat treating for? For the statedobjectives that I have heard, it doesn't really sound like an option. Ifheat treating really does remove moisture and result in a stiffer cane,and a slight weight reduction, are you saying that there are rods tobuild out there where these characteristics are not desired or required?Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm not certain there is a better or worse way of doing all this it'sjustthat the different methods give different results and you need toexperiment and see what you like.Once you see what you like do it the same way every time, there are alotof methods you just need to choose one. Tony At 10:07 AM 10/7/01 -0700, Wayne Kifer wrote: My understanding is that we should definitely heat treat but I'mleaning toward a lengthily seasoning to slowly lower the moisturecontent to under 6%. from everything I've learned from the wisdom onthe list this will create a stronger strip. The task would seem to beto control the reintroduction of moisture in the finished rod. The jury still seems to be out on how to accomplish this. At least those in theknow aren't giving up their secrets. Wayne :^)----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:54 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Sure sounds like maybe we shouldn't be heat treating eh? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Fw: Optimum moisture content I would think it would be an indication of equal stresses, andaccordingly strength, throughout the length of the strip. Definitelydesirable. Wayne----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:32 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Do you think that the bending in a smoother curve would bedesirable? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Patrick WSent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:18 AM oandc@email.msn.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content there is a difference between air drying and kiln drying (heattreating). I have a piece of bamboo D. Holbrook gave me in 1970 that was never heat treated and it is just as stiff as the ones that Iheat treat except it seems to bend in a smoother curve. My boss at theviolin shop told me it was like making Jell-O in either a icebox orthe oven, they both come out at Jell-O but are totally different intexture. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:48 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content This heat treating stuff really is a strange one isn't it? Terrysays no matter what coating you use if the rod is left with a wet rag in atube it'll become spaghetti. The US dept of Forrestry (or whatever it's name is) say heating wood in no way hardens it so even though spear points used by ancientcultures seem very hard after carbonising there isn't a scientific reason toexpect this even though I've lived around people who do still livethe old ways and their spear points _look_ and _feel_ harder thanthey were before carbonising them in fires and if the spear gets wet the point always seems to get hard again upon drying. Aboriginals of Australia have a reputation what canbe a savage place to live so if they've been carbonising spearpoints for 40,000 years I think it's worth noting. Then again you can drive the moisture out by vacuum or even steam. If you steam heat timber for bending you'll have a different texture to the wood after steaming it than before and if you use kiln driedtimber it'll behave differently to naturaly dried timber. Usinggreen wood is normallybest but in any case you usually don't get two chances at bending using steam. If you don't get it first time you'll normally break the laminate next time you try. You also notice that broken laminates that havebeen steamed have a different texture beyond simply raised grain,break differently (they will normally break along the grain in amore pronouncedmanner) and are drier than the sister laminates that have not beensteamed. If you heat treat bamboo before planing as you normally would whenmaking nodeless rods it's a _lot_ harder to plane than if you planethe bamboo "green" or even wet as you do when making the rodnormally and this is thecase even if the bamboo is left for months after being heat treatedwhich suggests to me heat treating does do something which isirreversible. It'sjust too difficult for me to believe the cells and chemicals making up thebamboo aren't permanently altered by heating so it would be veryinteresting indeed to compare drying by heat and vacuum as the vacuum wouldnot alter the chemicals or not in the say way though the cells would be ruptured.Just compare freeze dried ice cream you can buy for backpacking with what you'd get if you tried drying ice cream in an oven. It's adifferent operation. The bamboo does become useless when wet but once it dries again I'dthink it would go back to the way it was after heat treating and not as it was before heat treating. As an aside, when a rod is impregnated is it done by vacuum followed pressurized then the addition of the media or pressurized with themedia? Tony At 06:26 AM 10/7/01 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: A pressure chamber is of little value, what you need is a vacuumchamber. Driving whatever glop you prefer into the blank takes only about 10-15 minutes at 30"hg vacuum. That way the rod is notsoaked through and it is not as heavy. I always tried to get in to about .006-.008" deep. As an aside the chamber would be an excellent way to run anexperiment to see what percentage of the improvement due to heattreating can be attributed to the heating and polymerization andhow much is due to the simple drying out of the cane. An hour or two in the vacuum tankwill dry the cane out without heat. Hot dog! What a can of worms! A.J. From: "Wayne Kifer" Subject: Optimum moisture contentDate: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:14:09 -0700 I understand that the only way to prevent moisture gain in a rodwould beto impregnate the glued sections prior to applying the finish.Exotic woods and other materials such as mastodon ivory, and dearand elk antler slabs used for knife handles are impregnated under pressure. Might not an acceptable result be obtained if the sections were dried to lessthan 6Ÿ moisture content and heated in a vacuum to expand the cellstructure to enhance absorption of a sealing compound introduced into thevacuum chamber? A much less expensive setup to build than apressure chamber I would think. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from iank@ts.co.nz Wed Oct 10 19:56:16 2001 f9B0uE416236 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:56:14 - Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:58:21 +1300 , ,, Subject: Re: Trout on shovel Tony, Every time I have thrown a rock at a trout is in frustration as it hasrefused to consider the fine array of flies I have offered it. Half the timeit has vanished like a rocket, I have certainly never seen a "two stone"fish. The other half of the time it has stayed there, because it was a bitof wood or weed swinging gently in the current ! Ian----- Original Message ----- ; ; Subject: Re: Trout on shovel If you're out there Ian, what do you think would happen to you if you werecaught doing any of this or shooting a trout in NZ ? Tony At 09:30 AM 10/10/01 -0400, Peter A. Collin wrote: Since this thread just won't die, I must tell my story of shame. In thesummer of '91 I was working in the mountains of the Santa Fe nationalforest in New Mexico, as a timber cruiser. We camped for a week or 2 at a time. There was a high mountain lake full of cutthroats near ourcamp. Fresh fish appealed to my partner and I more than the noodles andother non- perishables that had become our staples. So one day I did aharvest from the lake. The cutthroats were all in the 8 to 10 inch range, and I assailed them with little dries with delight. I kept hearingspashings in the shallows, which I assumed were from a mink. Well, aftera while a giant cutthroat, maybe 22 inches or so, swam right past me in 6inches of water. I couldn't believe it. I was a novice fly fisher then,and the tiny dries seemed silly to tempt such a big fish with. I cravedthe meat - more from the one fish than I had on my entire stringer. So Isought to stone it. I picked up a fist sized rock, tiptoed close toit. There was only an inch or 2 of water over its back. I let fly andmissed. A funny thing happened. The fish swirled away from the bank,then swam back in and resumed its course in the shallows, parralel to theshore. I tried again. I must have flung 3 or 4 rocks at that fish before it disappeared. Now, this behavior must seem like the most crude thing afly fisher could do. Having done it, though, I will say this: anybodywho is capable of killing a trout with a rock should be entitled toit. It is far more challenging than tempting it with a dry fly! Peter Collin----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au; flyfishr@istar.ca ;harms1@pa.net ;oandc@email.msn.com ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 9:07 AMSubject: Re: Trout on shovel Bret.I would think that shovel fishing requires more skill than fly fishing and is probably less of a strain on the resource because not as much water can be covered.Terry,PS. An all wood Maltster's shovel for the purist? Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Here in the Indiana/Michigan region of the Greta Lakes I have seen guys down in the streams with pitch forks spearing salmon and steelhead. Last year there were 5 Mexican migrant workers arrested for doing this in atributary to the St. Joseph River.Bret /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 19:57:55 2001 f9B0vq416513 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:57:53 - Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content f9B0vs416514 You've got to admit though Terry this is strange and bizarre almost bordering on cruel treatment for any rod. Tony At 07:31 PM 10/10/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Barry,I once had a rod returned to me by Codella because a customer said it was soft.The guy had the rod for a couple of years and had not complained before. Ichecked it out and it was amazing, I could have tied it in a knot. This was caneheat treated @ 375F for .75hr! I tried to dry it out but I ended up making anew rod.I did not think too much on how the rod became so soft, I was justembarrassedand wanted to fix it as soon as possible.I put the new rod in the tube and when I slipped the rod into the mailing tube Inoticed that the brass cap on the bottom of the aluminium tube was blackandcorroded as if it had been in water for a long time.I called up the owner of the rod and we talked about how the rod was stored andwhen I suggested that the rod had been in water he started to stutter like abastard.The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a cap thatsomehowhad water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was just stored ina very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid westIf I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sent it backto him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing to preventmoisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry Kling, Barry W. wrote: I should probably keep quiet, but.... from all I've seen and read, there aretwo purposes for heat treating. One is to remove moisture. But that istemporary to some degree. By far the more important purpose is toactuallychange the structure of the bamboo so that the parts of the bamboothat aremost critical to a rod's action are no longer made limp when exposed towater. Milward's book suggests this occurs when the cane (not just thesurface) darkens slightly. Too much darkening can actually damage the fibers (though perhapd not critically if not taken too far) This doesn't mean nowater is absorbed by such a rod, though I believe most well designedtestsshow it's less than for untreated bamboo. But it means that whateverwateris absorbed after tempering, it doesn't change the action very much, ifatall. I don't think this is much of a mystery. Other listers have commentedthatit's well known that woods change internal structure when heattempered.Milward's book goes a long way toward proving it for bambboo. And we allknow two critical facts - no finish can keep a rod from absorbing watereventually (and we even have heard extreme examples like rodsrecoveredafter being awash for weeks) and most rods in spite of this don't varyperceptibly when they are fished on a humid Midwestern pond and then ahighdry mountain stream, after plenty of time to gradually accommodate toambient humidity. Granted, there are rods that are "heat treated" but not enough to change the structure. These are the ones that act like wet noodles when wet andthenbehave when dry. No mystery in that - it simply means they were neveradequately tempered to the extent that the internal structure changed. I don't mean to sound like there's no mystery to any of this, but thebasicpractical question of why we do it and what we're trying to accomplish is, I believe, fairly well answered. Flame away! Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 1:06 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm sorry I have to put words in your mouth with this statement.To reiterate, what exactly, is heat treating for? For the statedobjectives that I have heard, it doesn't really sound like an option. Ifheat treating really does remove moisture and result in a stiffer cane,and a slight weight reduction, are you saying that there are rods tobuild out there where these characteristics are not desired or required?Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm not certain there is a better or worse way of doing all this it'sjustthat the different methods give different results and you need toexperiment and see what you like.Once you see what you like do it the same way every time, there are alotof methods you just need to choose one. Tony At 10:07 AM 10/7/01 -0700, Wayne Kifer wrote: My understanding is that we should definitely heat treat but I'mleaning toward a lengthily seasoning to slowly lower the moisturecontent to under 6%. from everything I've learned from the wisdom onthe list this will create a stronger strip. The task would seem to beto control the reintroduction of moisture in the finished rod. The jury still seems to be out on how to accomplish this. At least those in theknow aren't giving up their secrets. Wayne :^)----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:54 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Sure sounds like maybe we shouldn't be heat treating eh? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Fw: Optimum moisture content I would think it would be an indication of equal stresses, andaccordingly strength, throughout the length of the strip. Definitelydesirable. Wayne----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:32 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Do you think that the bending in a smoother curve would bedesirable? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Patrick WSent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:18 AM oandc@email.msn.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content there is a difference between air drying and kiln drying (heattreating). I have a piece of bamboo D. Holbrook gave me in 1970 that was never heat treated and it is just as stiff as the ones that Iheat treat except it seems to bend in a smoother curve. My boss at theviolin shop told me it was like making Jell-O in either a icebox orthe oven, they both come out at Jell-O but are totally different intexture. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:48 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content This heat treating stuff really is a strange one isn't it? Terrysays no matter what coating you use if the rod is left with a wet rag in atube it'll become spaghetti. The US dept of Forrestry (or whatever it's name is) say heating wood in no way hardens it so even though spear points used by ancientcultures seem very hard after carbonising there isn't a scientific reason toexpect this even though I've lived around people who do still livethe old ways and their spear points _look_ and _feel_ harder thanthey were before carbonising them in fires and if the spear gets wet the point always seems to get hard again upon drying. Aboriginals of Australia have a reputation what canbe a savage place to live so if they've been carbonising spearpoints for 40,000 years I think it's worth noting. Then again you can drive the moisture out by vacuum or even steam. If you steam heat timber for bending you'll have a different texture to the wood after steaming it than before and if you use kiln driedtimber it'll behave differently to naturaly dried timber. Usinggreen wood is normallybest but in any case you usually don't get two chances at bending using steam. If you don't get it first time you'll normally break the laminate next time you try. You also notice that broken laminates that havebeen steamed have a different texture beyond simply raised grain,break differently (they will normally break along the grain in amore pronouncedmanner) and are drier than the sister laminates that have not beensteamed. If you heat treat bamboo before planing as you normally would whenmaking nodeless rods it's a _lot_ harder to plane than if you planethe bamboo "green" or even wet as you do when making the rodnormally and this is thecase even if the bamboo is left for months after being heat treatedwhich suggests to me heat treating does do something which isirreversible. It'sjust too difficult for me to believe the cells and chemicals making up thebamboo aren't permanently altered by heating so it would be veryinteresting indeed to compare drying by heat and vacuum as the vacuum wouldnot alter the chemicals or not in the say way though the cells would be ruptured.Just compare freeze dried ice cream you can buy for backpackingwith what you'd get if you tried drying ice cream in an oven. It's adifferent operation. The bamboo does become useless when wet but once it dries again I'dthink it would go back to the way it was after heat treating and not as it was before heat treating. As an aside, when a rod is impregnated is it done by vacuum followed pressurized then the addition of the media or pressurized with themedia? Tony At 06:26 AM 10/7/01 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: A pressure chamber is of little value, what you need is a vacuumchamber. Driving whatever glop you prefer into the blank takes only about 10-15 minutes at 30"hg vacuum. That way the rod is notsoaked through and it is not as heavy. I always tried to get in to about .006-.008" deep. As an aside the chamber would be an excellent way to run anexperiment to see what percentage of the improvement due to heattreating can be attributed to the heating and polymerization andhow much is due to the simple drying out of the cane. An hour or two in the vacuum tankwill dry the cane out without heat. Hot dog! What a can of worms! A.J. From: "Wayne Kifer" Subject: Optimum moisture contentDate: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:14:09 -0700 I understand that the only way to prevent moisture gain in a rodwould beto impregnate the glued sections prior to applying the finish.Exotic woods and other materials such as mastodon ivory, anddearand elk antler slabs used for knife handles are impregnated under pressure.Might not an acceptable result be obtained if the sections were dried to lessthan 6Ÿ moisture content and heated in a vacuum to expand the cellstructure to enhance absorption of a sealing compound introduced into thevacuum chamber? A much less expensive setup to build than apressure chamber I would think. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 10 20:08:31 2001 f9B18U417387 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:08:30 - (may be forged)) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Tom,the rod itself was not in contact with water. The rod was in the tube andstoredin another container with a cap that had water inside. It was the humiditythatgot to the cane.I do not read rodmaking books so I am not up with the latest technicaldescoveries.The example I gave was an observation of an event that happened to me andled meto draw certain conclusions. Make of it what you will. TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/10/1 11:31:20 PM, hexagon@odyssee.net writes: prevent moisture penetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate. >> Terry - I never interpreted anything said on this subject to say that heattreated cane won't reabsorb any water. In normal atsmopheric conditions,itjust doesn't reabsorb as much, and I doubt that the difference is morethan afew percent. If you insist on storing a rod in a steam bath, or under water,maybe the same thing doesn't happen, or maybe it does. When yousaturate thestuff, and the moisture content is in the 50% or more range, whatdifferencedoes a couple percent make? Either way you could tie the rod in a knot.Should this kind of misfortune befall anyone, the worst thing you can do istry to dry the rod quickly. The outer portion of the cane will dry out andshrink, causingsplits because the core of the rod will still be wet and swollen. Let the rodslowly dry out in a basement, or maybe even in a plastic bag.. from oandc@email.msn.com Wed Oct 10 20:10:10 2001 f9B1A9417616 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:10:10 - Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:09:28 -0700 Subject: Fw: Planing form question for a newbie FILETIME=[60ABE210:01C151F1] I did a search on the McMaster site and found a variety of triangle =stones to 6" and in a variety of grits under the headings stones, =sharpening stones, then abrasive files. Thanks for the lead.Wayne :^)) Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie www.mcmaster.com I have only seen one physical size, and one grit, too. =I want to say mine was approx. 4" long x =BD" on each side. Let me know =what you find. M-D Subject: Fw: Planing form question for a newbie Thanks for the input,I'll check with McMaster-Carr, assuming they have a web site, if I =can't find a Norton locally. My files were not exactly dead on so I left =the grooves about 4 thousands short of finished. That should leave =enough to correct with the stone by the time I get to the finished =depth. I'm new to triangle stones. Is there a preferred size to request? =Thanks again, Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie Wayne, I got my stone from McMaster-Carr. All of them I've ever seen are made = which I suspect is the norm. Triangle files, on the other hand seem to =be normally un-equilateral. M-D SNIP I'm down to 3 or 4 thousands on the grooves and will finish with a =triangle stone. Ifanyone out there knows a source for a good accurate one let me know. = AND SNIP AGAIN Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 I did a search on the McMaster site and= variety of triangle stones to 6" and in a variety of grits under the = lead.Wayne :^)) From:Jojo DeLancier = Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:11 PMSubject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie only = physical size, and one grit, too. I want to say mine was approx. 4" = =BD" on each side. Let me know what you find. M-D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, October 10, = PMSubject: Fw: Planing form = newbie Thanks for the input,I'll check with McMaster-Carr, = a web site, if I can't find a Norton locally. My files were not = on so I left the grooves about 4 thousands short of = depth. I'm new to triangle stones. Is there a preferred size to = Thanks again, From:Jojo DeLancier = Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 3:31 PMSubject: Re: Planing form question for a =newbie Wayne, I got my stone from = All of them I've ever seen are made by Norton. I only ordered one, and = fortunately it was dead-on 60=B0, which I suspect is the norm. = on the other hand seem to be normally =un-equilateral. M-D Kifer SNIP I'm down to 3 or 4 thousands on the grooves and will finish = triangle stone. Ifanyone out there knows a source for a good = one let me know. AND SNIP AGAIN Wayne ---Outgoing mail is = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = 9/25/01 from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 10 20:15:08 2001 f9B1F8418101 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:15:08 -0500 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:15:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Terry, Increase in ash content, indicative of carbonizationDecrease in volatile oilsPlasticizing and subsequent solidification of ligninRemoval of hydrating water from the cellular structure, resulting inshrinkage, weight loss, increased stiffness due to the tighter meshing ofthe cellulose layersCaramelization of polysaccharides Information taken from accepted theories of cellulose science, and thescientific testing done by Milward, Cross, and myself (unpublished). M-D ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content JoJo,you will have to explain the chemical changes that may or may not take place when cane is heat treated, I have just never noticed any of this!The only changes I have noticed is in perhaps the pithy part of the cane which gets brittle and difficult to plane when freshly heat treated.Terry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Terry, My understanding of what the books refer to is that bamboo, once heattreated to a point of chemical change, can never hold the amount ofintercellular moisture it once did. Free moisture, however, as in yourexample, is readily re-absorbed by the cane. I have done that test myself. Bamboo, whether heat treated or not, will adsorb into equilibrium with the atmosphere, though the amount of absorption will vary, depending upon the amount of chemical change that was induced. M-D From: "T. Ackland" SNIP The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a cap that somehow had water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was just stored in a very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid west If I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have it back to him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing to prevent moisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry from bob@downandacross.com Wed Oct 10 20:18:39 2001 f9B1Id418476 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:18:39 - Subject: RE: winston taper from the list, I believe they were posted by that unknown bandit guy, Marty.(As I look through my tapers here, I have noticed that Marty has been soextremely generous with stuff that has come through his hands. Thanks,Marty!)Good luck on these, I have not built either yet.Bob Here are the tapers. I think these rods were refered to as"leetle fellers".6' 2pc. #3 Winston measured over varnish deduct .003"Tip Butt00 .070" .170"05 .079 .17710 .092 .19015 .105 .20320 .118 .21925 .132 .23330 .145 .245 at 26 3/4" start of grip35 .158 under grip6" grip, 3 1/2" cap & ring seat W/ cork spacer. Medium action rod.Guide spacing 5", 9 7/8", 15 7/8" 23", 30 1/2", 38 3/4", 47" 7' 2pc. #4 Winston measured over varnish deduct .003"Tip Butt00 .065" .185"05 .076 .20110 .096 .21715 .113 .22620 .126 .24425 .138 .26030 .150 .28235 .164 .288 at 34" start of grip40 .182 under grip 5" grip, 3 1/2" cap & ring seat W/ cork spacer. med. fast actionrod.guide spacing, 4", 8", 12 3/4", 18 1/4", 24 1/4",32" ,40", 47 5/8",56". -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: winston taper My feelings exactly. I tried last year to get Winston to share their tapersbut they wouldn't. I guess I can't blame them. Anyway I've never cast one oftheir bamboo rods and would love to see some tapers if anyone has any, orhas a rod they'd be willing to mic. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: winston taper My favorite rod maker among the 'plastic' rods by far is Winston. I own a3wt LT 5pc rod and really like how it flexes well into the lower sections.I have never had the oportunity to play with the bamboo rods that this finecompany makes. Does anyone on the list have experience with Winstonbamboo?Does anyone have a taper for a 3,4 or 5 wt rod they would share with me? from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 10 20:21:36 2001 f9B1LZ418804 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:21:35 - (may be forged)) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Tony,I would never have replaced the rod if I had noticed the the green 1/8inwaterlineon the bottom of the tube. The rod was in good condition visually and thesack waslike new, no mildew or smell. What else can I say?Terry Tony Young wrote: You've got to admit though Terry this is strange and bizarre almostbordering on cruel treatment for any rod. Tony At 07:31 PM 10/10/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Barry,I once had a rod returned to me by Codella because a customer said itwassoft.The guy had the rod for a couple of years and had not complained before.Ichecked it out and it was amazing, I could have tied it in a knot. Thiswas caneheat treated @ 375F for .75hr! I tried to dry it out but I ended up makinganew rod.I did not think too much on how the rod became so soft, I was justembarrassedand wanted to fix it as soon as possible.I put the new rod in the tube and when I slipped the rod into the mailingtube Inoticed that the brass cap on the bottom of the aluminium tube was blackandcorroded as if it had been in water for a long time.I called up the owner of the rod and we talked about how the rod wasstored andwhen I suggested that the rod had been in water he started to stutterlike abastard.The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a cap thatsomehowhad water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was juststored ina very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid westIf I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sentit backto him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing topreventmoisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry Kling, Barry W. wrote: I should probably keep quiet, but.... from all I've seen and read, therearetwo purposes for heat treating. One is to remove moisture. But that istemporary to some degree. By far the more important purpose is toactuallychange the structure of the bamboo so that the parts of the bamboothat aremost critical to a rod's action are no longer made limp when exposed towater. Milward's book suggests this occurs when the cane (not just thesurface) darkens slightly. Too much darkening can actually damage the fibers (though perhapd not critically if not taken too far) This doesn't meannowater is absorbed by such a rod, though I believe most well designedtestsshow it's less than for untreated bamboo. But it means that whateverwateris absorbed after tempering, it doesn't change the action very much, ifatall. I don't think this is much of a mystery. Other listers have commentedthatit's well known that woods change internal structure when heattempered.Milward's book goes a long way toward proving it for bambboo. And weallknow two critical facts - no finish can keep a rod from absorbing watereventually (and we even have heard extreme examples like rodsrecoveredafter being awash for weeks) and most rods in spite of this don't varyperceptibly when they are fished on a humid Midwestern pond and thena highdry mountain stream, after plenty of time to gradually accommodatetoambient humidity. Granted, there are rods that are "heat treated" but not enough to change the structure. These are the ones that act like wet noodles when wet andthenbehave when dry. No mystery in that - it simply means they were neveradequately tempered to the extent that the internal structurechanged. I don't mean to sound like there's no mystery to any of this, but thebasicpractical question of why we do it and what we're trying to accomplish is, I believe, fairly well answered. Flame away! Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 1:06 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm sorry I have to put words in your mouth with this statement.To reiterate, what exactly, is heat treating for? For the statedobjectives that I have heard, it doesn't really sound like an option. Ifheat treating really does remove moisture and result in a stiffer cane,and a slight weight reduction, are you saying that there are rods tobuild out there where these characteristics are not desired orrequired?Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm not certain there is a better or worse way of doing all this it'sjustthat the different methods give different results and you need toexperiment and see what you like.Once you see what you like do it the same way every time, there are alotof methods you just need to choose one. Tony At 10:07 AM 10/7/01 -0700, Wayne Kifer wrote: My understanding is that we should definitely heat treat but I'mleaning toward a lengthily seasoning to slowly lower the moisturecontent to under 6%. from everything I've learned from the wisdomonthe list this will create a stronger strip. The task would seem to beto control the reintroduction of moisture in the finished rod. The jury still seems to be out on how to accomplish this. At least those in theknow aren't giving up their secrets. Wayne :^)----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:54 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Sure sounds like maybe we shouldn't be heat treating eh? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu KiferSent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Fw: Optimum moisture content I would think it would be an indication of equal stresses, andaccordingly strength, throughout the length of the strip. Definitelydesirable. Wayne----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:32 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Do you think that the bending in a smoother curve would bedesirable? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Patrick WSent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:18 AM oandc@email.msn.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content there is a difference between air drying and kiln drying (heattreating). I have a piece of bamboo D. Holbrook gave me in 1970that was never heat treated and it is just as stiff as the ones that Iheat treat except it seems to bend in a smoother curve. My boss at theviolin shop told me it was like making Jell-O in either a icebox orthe oven, they both come out at Jell-O but are totally different intexture. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:48 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content This heat treating stuff really is a strange one isn't it? Terrysays no matter what coating you use if the rod is left with a wet rag in atube it'll become spaghetti. The US dept of Forrestry (or whatever it's name is) say heatingwood in no way hardens it so even though spear points used by ancientcultures seem very hard after carbonising there isn't a scientific reason toexpect this even though I've lived around people who do still livethe old ways and their spear points _look_ and _feel_ harder thanthey were before carbonising them in fires and if the spear getswet the point always seems to get hard again upon drying. Aboriginalsof Australia have a reputation what canbe a savage place to live so if they've been carbonising spearpoints for 40,000 years I think it's worth noting. Then again you can drive the moisture out by vacuum or evensteam. If you steam heat timber for bending you'll have a differenttexture to the wood after steaming it than before and if you use kiln driedtimber it'll behave differently to naturaly dried timber. Usinggreen wood is normallybest but in any case you usually don't get two chances at bending using steam. If you don't get it first time you'll normally break the laminate next time you try. You also notice that broken laminates that havebeen steamed have a different texture beyond simply raised grain,break differently (they will normally break along the grain in amore pronouncedmanner) and are drier than the sister laminates that have not beensteamed. If you heat treat bamboo before planing as you normally wouldwhenmaking nodeless rods it's a _lot_ harder to plane than if you planethe bamboo "green" or even wet as you do when making the rodnormally and this is thecase even if the bamboo is left for months after being heattreatedwhich suggests to me heat treating does do something which isirreversible. It'sjust too difficult for me to believe the cells and chemicals making up thebamboo aren't permanently altered by heating so it would be veryinteresting indeed to compare drying by heat and vacuum as the vacuum wouldnot alter the chemicals or not in the say way though the cells would be ruptured.Just compare freeze dried ice cream you can buy for backpackingwith what you'd get if you tried drying ice cream in an oven. It's adifferent operation. The bamboo does become useless when wet but once it dries againI'dthink it would go back to the way it was after heat treating and not as it was before heat treating. As an aside, when a rod is impregnated is it done by vacuumfollowed pressurized then the addition of the media or pressurized with themedia? Tony At 06:26 AM 10/7/01 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: A pressure chamber is of little value, what you need is a vacuumchamber. Driving whatever glop you prefer into the blank takesonly about 10-15 minutes at 30"hg vacuum. That way the rod is notsoaked through and it is not as heavy. I always tried to get in to about .006-.008" deep. As an aside the chamber would be an excellent way to run anexperiment to see what percentage of the improvement due toheattreating can be attributed to the heating and polymerization andhow much is due to the simple drying out of the cane. An hour or two in the vacuum tankwill dry the cane out without heat. Hot dog! What a can of worms! A.J. From: "Wayne Kifer" Subject: Optimum moisture contentDate: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:14:09 -0700 I understand that the only way to prevent moisture gain in a rodwould beto impregnate the glued sections prior to applying the finish.Exotic woods and other materials such as mastodon ivory, anddearand elk antler slabs used for knife handles are impregnated under pressure.Might not an acceptable result be obtained if the sections were dried to lessthan 6Ÿ moisture content and heated in a vacuum to expand the cellstructure to enhance absorption of a sealing compound introduced into thevacuum chamber? A much less expensive setup to build than apressure chamber I would think. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date:9/25/01 _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Oct 10 20:30:00 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9B1Tx419586 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:29:59 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:30:02 -0500 Tony Young martinrjensen@home.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content Well I suppose we can only beat on this horse for so long, but I'll betthere's substantial agreement regarding the shovels. -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Tony,I would never have replaced the rod if I had noticed the the green 1/8inwaterlineon the bottom of the tube. The rod was in good condition visually and thesack waslike new, no mildew or smell. What else can I say?Terry Tony Young wrote: You've got to admit though Terry this is strange and bizarre almostbordering on cruel treatment for any rod. Tony At 07:31 PM 10/10/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Barry,I once had a rod returned to me by Codella because a customer said itwassoft.The guy had the rod for a couple of years and had not complained before. I checked it out and it was amazing, I could have tied it in a knot. Thiswas caneheat treated @ 375F for .75hr! I tried to dry it out but I ended up making a new rod.I did not think too much on how the rod became so soft, I was just embarrassed and wanted to fix it as soon as possible.I put the new rod in the tube and when I slipped the rod into the mailingtube Inoticed that the brass cap on the bottom of the aluminium tube was black and corroded as if it had been in water for a long time.I called up the owner of the rod and we talked about how the rod wasstored andwhen I suggested that the rod had been in water he started to stutter like a bastard.The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a cap that somehow had water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was juststored ina very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid westIf I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sentit backto him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing topreventmoisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry Kling, Barry W. wrote: I should probably keep quiet, but.... from all I've seen and read, there are two purposes for heat treating. One is to remove moisture. But that istemporary to some degree. By far the more important purpose is to actually change the structure of the bamboo so that the parts of the bamboo that are most critical to a rod's action are no longer made limp when exposed to water. Milward's book suggests this occurs when the cane (not just thesurface) darkens slightly. Too much darkening can actually damage the fibers (though perhapd not critically if not taken too far) This doesn't mean no water is absorbed by such a rod, though I believe most well designed tests show it's less than for untreated bamboo. But it means that whatever water is absorbed after tempering, it doesn't change the action very much, if at all. I don't think this is much of a mystery. Other listers have commented that it's well known that woods change internal structure when heat tempered. Milward's book goes a long way toward proving it for bambboo. And we all know two critical facts - no finish can keep a rod from absorbing water eventually (and we even have heard extreme examples like rods recovered after being awash for weeks) and most rods in spite of this don't varyperceptibly when they are fished on a humid Midwestern pond and thena high dry mountain stream, after plenty of time to gradually accommodatetoambient humidity. Granted, there are rods that are "heat treated" but not enough to change the structure. These are the ones that act like wet noodles when wet and then behave when dry. No mystery in that - it simply means they were neveradequately tempered to the extent that the internal structurechanged. I don't mean to sound like there's no mystery to any of this, but the basic practical question of why we do it and what we're trying to accomplish is, I believe, fairly well answered. Flame away! Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 1:06 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm sorry I have to put words in your mouth with this statement.To reiterate, what exactly, is heat treating for? For the statedobjectives that I have heard, it doesn't really sound like an option. If heat treating really does remove moisture and result in a stiffer cane, and a slight weight reduction, are you saying that there are rods tobuild out there where these characteristics are not desired or required? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm not certain there is a better or worse way of doing all this it'sjustthat the different methods give different results and you need toexperiment and see what you like.Once you see what you like do it the same way every time, there are alotof methods you just need to choose one. Tony At 10:07 AM 10/7/01 -0700, Wayne Kifer wrote: My understanding is that we should definitely heat treat but I'mleaning toward a lengthily seasoning to slowly lower the moisturecontent to under 6%. from everything I've learned from the wisdomonthe list this will create a stronger strip. The task would seem to beto control the reintroduction of moisture in the finished rod. The jury still seems to be out on how to accomplish this. At least those in the know aren't giving up their secrets. Wayne :^)----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Jensen" Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:54 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Sure sounds like maybe we shouldn't be heat treating eh? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu KiferSent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Fw: Optimum moisture content I would think it would be an indication of equal stresses, andaccordingly strength, throughout the length of the strip. Definitelydesirable. Wayne----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:32 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Do you think that the bending in a smoother curve would bedesirable? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Patrick WSent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:18 AM oandc@email.msn.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content there is a difference between air drying and kiln drying (heattreating). I have a piece of bamboo D. Holbrook gave me in 1970 that was never heat treated and it is just as stiff as the ones that Iheat treat except it seems to bend in a smoother curve. My boss at theviolin shop told me it was like making Jell-O in either a icebox or the oven, they both come out at Jell-O but are totally different in texture. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:48 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content This heat treating stuff really is a strange one isn't it? Terrysays no matter what coating you use if the rod is left with a wet rag in atube it'll become spaghetti. The US dept of Forrestry (or whatever it's name is) say heating wood in no way hardens it so even though spear points used by ancientcultures seem very hard after carbonising there isn't a scientific reason toexpect this even though I've lived around people who do still livethe old ways and their spear points _look_ and _feel_ harder thanthey were before carbonising them in fires and if the spear gets wet the point always seems to get hard again upon drying. Aboriginals of Australia have a reputation what canbe a savage place to live so if they've been carbonising spearpoints for 40,000 years I think it's worth noting. Then again you can drive the moisture out by vacuum or evensteam. If you steam heat timber for bending you'll have a different texture to the wood after steaming it than before and if you use kiln dried timber it'll behave differently to naturaly dried timber. Usinggreen wood is normallybest but in any case you usually don't get two chances at bending using steam. If you don't get it first time you'll normally break the laminate next time you try. You also notice that broken laminates that havebeen steamed have a different texture beyond simply raised grain,break differently (they will normally break along the grain in amore pronouncedmanner) and are drier than the sister laminates that have not beensteamed. If you heat treat bamboo before planing as you normally wouldwhenmaking nodeless rods it's a _lot_ harder to plane than if you plane the bamboo "green" or even wet as you do when making the rodnormally and this is thecase even if the bamboo is left for months after being heat treated which suggests to me heat treating does do something which isirreversible. It'sjust too difficult for me to believe the cells and chemicals making up thebamboo aren't permanently altered by heating so it would be veryinteresting indeed to compare drying by heat and vacuum as the vacuum wouldnot alter the chemicals or not in the say way though the cells would be ruptured.Just compare freeze dried ice cream you can buy for backpacking with what you'd get if you tried drying ice cream in an oven. It's adifferent operation. The bamboo does become useless when wet but once it dries again I'd think it would go back to the way it was after heat treating and not as it was before heat treating. As an aside, when a rod is impregnated is it done by vacuum followed pressurized then the addition of the media or pressurized with themedia? Tony At 06:26 AM 10/7/01 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: A pressure chamber is of little value, what you need is a vacuumchamber. Driving whatever glop you prefer into the blank takes only about 10-15 minutes at 30"hg vacuum. That way the rod is not soaked through and it is not as heavy. I always tried to get in to about .006-.008" deep. As an aside the chamber would be an excellent way to run anexperiment to see what percentage of the improvement due toheattreating can be attributed to the heating and polymerization andhow much is due to the simple drying out of the cane. An hour or two in the vacuum tankwill dry the cane out without heat. Hot dog! What a can of worms! A.J. From: "Wayne Kifer" Subject: Optimum moisture contentDate: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:14:09 -0700 I understand that the only way to prevent moisture gain in a rodwould beto impregnate the glued sections prior to applying the finish.Exotic woods and other materials such as mastodon ivory, and dear and elk antler slabs used for knife handles are impregnated under pressure. Might not an acceptable result be obtained if the sections were dried to lessthan 6Ÿ moisture content and heated in a vacuum to expand the cellstructure to enhance absorption of a sealing compound introduced into thevacuum chamber? A much less expensive setup to build than apressure chamber I would think. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date:9/25/01 _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /******************************************************************* ******/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /******************************************************************* ******/ ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 /*********************************************************************** **/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*********************************************************************** **/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 10 20:30:32 2001 f9B1UV419735 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:30:31 -0500 (may be forged)) Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content The removal of hydrating water, which is the most important, is reversibleandthe rest is debatable.Terry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Terry, Increase in ash content, indicative of carbonizationDecrease in volatile oilsPlasticizing and subsequent solidification of ligninRemoval of hydrating water from the cellular structure, resulting inshrinkage, weight loss, increased stiffness due to the tighter meshing ofthe cellulose layersCaramelization of polysaccharides Information taken from accepted theories of cellulose science, and thescientific testing done by Milward, Cross, and myself (unpublished). M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Cc: "Rodmakers discussion group" Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 7:42 PMSubject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content JoJo,you will have to explain the chemical changes that may or may not take place when cane is heat treated, I have just never noticed any of this!The only changes I have noticed is in perhaps the pithy part of the cane which gets brittle and difficult to plane when freshly heat treated.Terry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Terry, My understanding of what the books refer to is that bamboo, once heattreated to a point of chemical change, can never hold the amount ofintercellular moisture it once did. Free moisture, however, as in yourexample, is readily re-absorbed by the cane. I have done that test myself. Bamboo, whether heat treated or not, will adsorb into equilibrium with the atmosphere, though the amount of absorption will vary, depending upon the amount of chemical change that was induced. M-D From: "T. Ackland" SNIP The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a capthat somehow had water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it wasjust stored in a very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid west If I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sent it back to him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing to prevent moisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 10 20:40:50 2001 f9B1eo420505 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:40:50 -0500 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:40:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content If you say so. M-D The removal of hydrating water, which is the most important, is reversible and the rest is debatable.Terry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Terry, Increase in ash content, indicative of carbonizationDecrease in volatile oilsPlasticizing and subsequent solidification of ligninRemoval of hydrating water from the cellular structure, resulting inshrinkage, weight loss, increased stiffness due to the tighter meshing of the cellulose layersCaramelization of polysaccharides Information taken from accepted theories of cellulose science, and thescientific testing done by Milward, Cross, and myself (unpublished). M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Cc: "Rodmakers discussion group" Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 7:42 PMSubject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content JoJo,you will have to explain the chemical changes that may or may not take place when cane is heat treated, I have just never noticed any of this!The only changes I have noticed is in perhaps the pithy part of the cane which gets brittle and difficult to plane when freshly heat treated.Terry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Terry, My understanding of what the books refer to is that bamboo, once heat treated to a point of chemical change, can never hold the amount ofintercellular moisture it once did. Free moisture, however, as in your example, is readily re-absorbed by the cane. I have done that test myself. Bamboo, whether heat treated or not, will adsorb into equilibrium with the atmosphere, though the amount of absorption will vary, depending upon the amount of chemical change that was induced. M-D From: "T. Ackland" SNIP The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a cap that somehow had water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was just stored in a very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid west If I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sent it back to him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing to prevent moisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Oct 10 21:12:07 2001 f9B2C1422156 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:12:01 - Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:11:11 +0800 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:11:11 +0800 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Bluing forms? Hi Wayne,I'm pretty sure the thickness of chrome plating is measuredin microns, so I don't think you'd have to bother making allowances for it.Mike -----Original Message----- I have considered chrome. Ray Gould suggests it in his book. Do you knowoffhand what the thickness of the chrome plating? I would imagine one wouldhave to take the grooves down an equal amount to compensate or refile thegrooves afterward. Ideas?Wayne from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Wed Oct 10 21:12:28 2001 f9B2CR422183 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:12:27 - Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:12:24 -0700 Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content FILETIME=[2AEF8A60:01C151FA] I apologize, but I have to weigh in on this subject. The issue of heattreating and moisture re-absorption was resolved for me with my first rod.After I bound the strips for heat treating, and noticed that if I flexed thebundle it would stay flexed. After heat treating, it straightened out with asnappiness that was readily apparent. Now, when I got into rodmaking I gotthe idea that I should build five rods at a time, because this would give mea lot of practice with the basics (Didn't work- classic beginners mistakeson three in a row before I wised up). However, what it did provide was abunch of bundled heat treated strips that were laying around the basement examinethem later, they were back to their original softness. Put back in the oven,and they became snappy again. This would occur without even approachingtherecommended 325-375 F temps I have seen recommended for blond cane.The nextrod I flamed. Same thing as before, but after many weeks the strips retainedtheir snappiness. They got softer through time, but you could tell it was anentirely different effect. I do not claim to know what aspect of this is dueto simple dessication, and what results from some chemical or physicalalteration of the bamboo. All I know is that my own observations wereconsistent with what everyone else has generally observed. My experience did convince me that it was important to keep rods as dry aspossible. I run a de-humidifier, and my glued up blanks are stored in anairtight tube with dessicant. They stay there whenever I am not working onthem. I am certain they absorb some moisture whenever they are out of thebox, but I can at least try to minimize moisture re-entry until they get acoat of finish. Jeff from KEVINL2067@aol.com Wed Oct 10 21:19:10 2001 f9B2JA422820 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:19:10 - for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:19:05 - Subject: unsubscribe from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Wed Oct 10 21:20:25 2001 f9B2KO423065 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:20:24 - Subject: RE: winston taper I have a friend who is a Winston dealer. I will see him next week. Let me know what rods you want mic'ed and I'll see if i can persuade him to let me take a peek if he has the particular rods in stock. On another note- I am a Scott Dealer and I like the powr-ply(G-series) rods. they are much slower than the typical graphite rods and have plenty of power. When I get a moment, I'd like to convert the tapers top cane and graph the stresses. Could be interesting.... John K At 07:52 PM 10/10/01 -0500, Kling, Barry W. wrote: My feelings exactly. I tried last year to get Winston to share their tapersbut they wouldn't. I guess I can't blame them. Anyway I've never cast one oftheir bamboo rods and would love to see some tapers if anyone has any, orhas a rod they'd be willing to mic. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:52 PM Subject: winston taper My favorite rod maker among the 'plastic' rods by far is Winston. I own a3wt LT 5pc rod and really like how it flexes well into the lower sections.I have never had the oportunity to play with the bamboo rods that this finecompany makes. Does anyone on the list have experience with Winstonbamboo?Does anyone have a taper for a 3,4 or 5 wt rod they would share with me? from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Oct 10 21:32:06 2001 f9B2W4424035 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:32:05 -0500 TAA01263; Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line Tony,Are you talking about the football looking like plastic connectors? If so Idid a little experiment with them last season. They worked great. I pulledon them really hard and they would not break. Then one day "POP" off itcame. The plastic just broke out of the blue. To bad I really did like thembut they do break on big fish... because it wouldnt be funny if they brokeon small ones. Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line I'll give this a go, I normally use the inchworm over the line with wiping(I've become VERY paranoid about loosing lines when I had one head forAfrica when the nail knot stripped the line to the core). Always worthtrying a new method.Anybody out there using those plastic cucumber shaped things you use toconnect the leader to the line with using a knot the get constricted inside the device?They _look_ good and I'm using them now and haven't had problems buthaven't had anything of any size to try them out yet. Tony MD: Thanks. Not sure this will work with silk, though. I lean towards aneedle knot for that with a bit of wader repair to seal it. sean Jojo DeLancier wrote: Here is what I posted off-list to another list member. Nunley has pointed out to me that CA's are damaging to fly lines, and I had heard that from other sources. I believe that the type of CA may have something to do with this, and therefore use only the ZAP adhesive recommended byUmpqua. In the years since I've been using the CA to attach backing and leader I've never had a failure, nor notice any cracking of the line, crazing, etc. I gothrough a couple of leaders in a year, so it may be that I'm cutting away any damaged portions of the line before they have a chance to causeproblems. I get put into the backing several times a year, but still have not noticed anything amiss with the connection, and have not had anyfailures there, either. ************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 10 21:37:25 2001 f9B2bO424579 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:37:24 - (authenticated) Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:37:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Terry, Since you freely confess your unwillingness to read and discuss the meritsofother folks findings (scientific or not), you are forced to rely only on yourownfeelings and findings. Much scientific work has been done to prove yourconclusions are wrong. Yet you seem to insist on promoting the same tiredold propound the shortsightedness of those who are unwilling to learn forthemselves.And I seem to remember that you harp on others not to repeat the same oldtiredfindings of Garrison, Cattanach, and others. If real evidence doesn'tconvinceyou, you are guilty of that which you accuse others of doing, my friend. Rather than spend time and energy promoting those same ideas with abunch ofus who don't know anything about building rods (including me -- I've only builtabout 50 rods), take a day or two to read through Bob Milward's book. I'll beglad to loan you my copy, just forward your mailing address. I think youmight besurprised to learn what in-depth experimentation has actually been done. Forthatmatter, come on down to SRG and hear Martin Darrell Odom (jojo) talk aboutsome ofhis preliminary findings. Check the archives for some of the work of AdamVigil.No one is re-hashing Garrison/Carmichael here. This is good stuff based onsoundthinking and hard work. What you seem to be touting is the same old stuffyouwere saying two years ago. Most of us have moved past that. You shouldtoo. Guess I'm just trying to say that you're just plain wrong. The removal ofhydrating water is NOT completely reversible. The rest is not debatableeither.Real live tests prove it. Harry PS - I know better than to get into this, but just couldn't overcome thetemptation :-)) "T. Ackland" wrote: The removal of hydrating water, which is the most important, is reversibleandthe rest is debatable. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 21:49:38 2001 f9B2na425353 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:49:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line They're the ones. I've had a few people respond to this thanks everyone and all have said they work great till they don't so I guess I'll keep doing what I am with backing loops or just plain nail knots. Tony At 05:55 PM 10/10/01 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote: Tony,Are you talking about the football looking like plastic connectors? If so Idid a little experiment with them last season. They worked great. I pulledon them really hard and they would not break. Then one day "POP" off itcame. The plastic just broke out of the blue. To bad I really did like thembut they do break on big fish... because it wouldnt be funny if they brokeon small ones. Adam Vigil----- Original Message -----From: Tony Young Cc: Rodmakers discussion group Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 11:36 PMSubject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line I'll give this a go, I normally use the inchworm over the line with wiping(I've become VERY paranoid about loosing lines when I had one head forAfrica when the nail knot stripped the line to the core). Always worthtrying a new method.Anybody out there using those plastic cucumber shaped things you usetoconnect the leader to the line with using a knot the get constricted inside the device?They _look_ good and I'm using them now and haven't had problems buthaven't had anything of any size to try them out yet. Tony MD: Thanks. Not sure this will work with silk, though. I lean towards aneedle knot for that with a bit of wader repair to seal it. sean Jojo DeLancier wrote: Here is what I posted off-list to another list member. Nunley has pointed out to me that CA's are damaging to fly lines, and I had heard that from other sources. I believe that the type of CA may have something todo with this, and therefore use only the ZAP adhesive recommended byUmpqua. In the years since I've been using the CA to attach backing and leader I've never had a failure, nor notice any cracking of the line, crazing, etc. I gothrough a couple of leaders in a year, so it may be that I'm cutting away any damaged portions of the line before they have a chance to causeproblems. I get put into the backing several times a year, but still have not noticed anything amiss with the connection, and have not had anyfailures there, either. ************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Oct 10 21:59:04 2001 f9B2x3426023 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:59:03 - TAA05939 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:59:04 - Subject: Wet Bad, Dry Good Terry A. makes a good point. Discussing what cane should do and what it =actually does is the enigma. I know what I have observed and come to a =conclusion, from this I make decisions. Now Terry has had experiences =unique unto himself and so he does things his way, and so it should be. =I have never seen a rod go noodle before. I would think it is due to =reabsorption of moisture, makes sense. What also makes sense is if that =moisture cane reenter the cane it should be able to be removed by a =reverse process...drying. Upon drying the rod it still remained a noodle. What would cause that? =Moisture present cane soft, moisture driven off cane stiff. Seems =logical. Terry drying that rod resulted in it still being a noodle, but =shouldn't it have been stiff? What could have caused the cane to remain =in such a state if it had been dried? We soak strips until saturated to plane and then dry them. They return =to a rigid state upon drying. Maybe something other then moisture can =cause cane to become soft. Maybe we think Terry's rod became soft by moisture only because it is =the only cause we are familiar with. Could there be another?Any thoughts? Adam Vigil Terry A. makes a good point. Discussing= should do and what it actually does is the enigma. I know what I have = experiences unique unto himself and so he does things his way, and so it = reabsorption of moisture, makes sense. What also makes sense is if that = process...drying. Upon drying the rod it still remained a = What would cause that? Moisture present cane soft, moisture driven off = stiff. Seems logical. Terry drying that rod resulted in it still being a = but shouldn't it have been stiff? What could have caused the cane to = such a state if it had been dried? We soak strips until saturated to plane= dry them. They return to a rigid state upon drying. Maybe something = moisture can cause cane to become soft. Maybe we think Terry's rod becamesoft = another?Any thoughts? AdamVigil from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 22:01:00 2001 f9B30w426301 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:00:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content I don't think so. The cell structure has altered and chemically the mechanisms used to transport moisture have also been altered. You'd really expect the degree of moisture that is possible to be re absorbed in normal conditions would be reduced and also possibly the speed it's expelled after the moisture levels have lowered.You can smell and see the volatile oils during heat treating so there can be no doubt at all something is happening chemically.This is pretty much what I'd always though was happening but like I've written I'm not a biologist nor chemist so the exact why of it has escaped me apart from the smell, you can't mistake that for nothing taking place chemically.Tony At 09:32 PM 10/10/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: The removal of hydrating water, which is the most important, is reversibleandthe rest is debatable.Terry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Terry, Increase in ash content, indicative of carbonizationDecrease in volatile oilsPlasticizing and subsequent solidification of ligninRemoval of hydrating water from the cellular structure, resulting inshrinkage, weight loss, increased stiffness due to the tighter meshing ofthe cellulose layersCaramelization of polysaccharides Information taken from accepted theories of cellulose science, and thescientific testing done by Milward, Cross, and myself (unpublished). M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Cc: "Rodmakers discussion group" Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 7:42 PMSubject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content JoJo,you will have to explain the chemical changes that may or may not take place when cane is heat treated, I have just never noticed any of this!The only changes I have noticed is in perhaps the pithy part of the cane which gets brittle and difficult to plane when freshly heat treated.Terry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Terry, My understanding of what the books refer to is that bamboo, onceheattreated to a point of chemical change, can never hold the amount ofintercellular moisture it once did. Free moisture, however, as in yourexample, is readily re-absorbed by the cane. I have done that test myself. Bamboo, whether heat treated or not, will adsorb into equilibriumwith the atmosphere, though the amount of absorption will vary, dependingupon the amount of chemical change that was induced. M-D From: "T. Ackland" SNIP The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a capthat somehow had water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was just stored in a very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid west If I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sent it back to him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating doesnothing to prevent moisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 10 22:09:43 2001 f9B39f426983 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:09:42 - Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Fear alone. No doubt about it. At 08:00 PM 10/10/01 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote: Terry A. makes a good point. Discussing what cane should do and what it actually does is the enigma. I know what I have observed and come to a conclusion, from this I make decisions. Now Terry has had experiences unique unto himself and so he does things his way, and so it should be. I have never seen a rod go noodle before. I would think it is due to reabsorption of moisture, makes sense. What also makes sense is if that moisture cane reenter the cane it should be able to be removed by a reverse process...drying. Upon drying the rod it still remained a noodle. What would cause that? Moisture present cane soft, moisture driven off cane stiff. Seems logical. Terry drying that rod resulted in it still being a noodle, but shouldn't it have been stiff? What could have caused the cane to remain in such a state if it had been dried? We soak strips until saturated to plane and then dry them. They return to a rigid state upon drying. Maybe something other then moisture can cause cane to become soft. Maybe we think Terry's rod became soft by moisture only because it is the only cause we are familiar with. Could there be another?Any thoughts? Adam Vigil /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from shane_person@telus.net Wed Oct 10 22:25:28 2001 f9B3PL427922 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:25:22 - Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:21:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Fw: Planing form question for a newbie Wayne, make out with the triangle stones Shane I did a search on the McMaster site and found a variety of triangle stonesto 6" and in a >variety of grits under the headings stones, sharpeningstones, then abrasive files. from briansr@point-net.com Wed Oct 10 22:30:06 2001 f9B3U6428374 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:30:06 - for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:48:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Afgani TV Guide How about the new hide and seek game played over there"Where's Bin Laden been?" How about the new hide and seek game played there"Where's Bin Laden been?" from martinrjensen@home.com Wed Oct 10 23:16:58 2001 f9B4Gv400537 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:16:57 - femail47.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:16:59 -0700 Subject: RE: All you never wanted to know about attachments... I totally understand your point. Since I have a cable modem and candownload several meg's with hardly a notice, this problem really doesn'tapply to me. I was thinking about alternatives for other people though.I think that the best way is to not send attachments (to this list) atall as "someone" is guaranteed to have a problem with them and the wayemail works, once you start downloading messages, you are pretty muchstuck until it finishes. I really like using the free sites to uploadpictures. Using rules as I have stated is still a good way to manageemail and I figured that some people may not know about this. NOTE: I read where a 60 KB attachment took 45 minutes for someone todownload the other day. That is really small and I have a bit of aproblem swallowing that one. I mean, I've written messages bigger thanthat. There are people at work that have a "signature file" larger thanthat! Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: All you never wanted to know about attachments... The hassle here is I do want attachments when they are wanted like forwork They're aren't just pics it's docs also.Personally I think there are certain rules of etiquette, try not to fartin a lift, switch off your mobile phone at the opera, say please and thankyou and don't send attachments to a list serv. Tony At 11:01 PM 10/9/01 -0700, Martin Jensen wrote: Most email apps allow you to set your program to stop attachments if you so desire. The people who can't handle getting attachments should investigate their email applications and see if they can set it as such. I mean this bitch about attachments will slow them down for a bit but you are not going to stop them, so why not set your app to stop them. As I said most apps allow for this sort of thing. Check it out. Martin Jensen /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from mgjanik@yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 23:19:42 2001 f9B4Jf400825 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:19:41 - Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:19:38 PDT Subject: Phillipson Pacemaker Dry Fly Special 1002773978=:80167" --0-1091248254-1002773978=:80167 I have a pristine Phillipson Pacemaker Dry Fly Special 8.5 HDH 3/2 allsections full length, great ferrules, original bag and tube with beautifulvarnish. Except for the soiled grip, you'd think the rod was fished maybeonly 5 or 6 times. I am selling this rod and anyone interested in purchasing itcan contact me at miangler@yahoo.com . This one has definate collectorpotential and is in original "un-refinished" condition. Thanks, Mike ---------------------------------Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.--0-1091248254-1002773978=:80167 I have a pristine Phillipson Pacemaker Dry Fly Special 8.5 HDH 3/2 allsections full length, great ferrules, original bag and tube with beautiful This one has definate collector potential and is in original "un-refinished" Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.--0-1091248254- 1002773978=:80167-- from petermckean@netspace.net.au Thu Oct 11 03:27:33 2001 f9B8RL406679 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:27:21 - f9B8QuT72786; Subject: Re: Trout on shovel So, stoneflies; what's wrong with that? Petr Subject: Re: Trout on shovel Since this thread just won't die, I must tell my story of shame. In =the summer of '91 I was working in the mountains of the Santa Fe =national forest in New Mexico, as a timber cruiser. We camped for a =week or 2 at a time. There was a high mountain lake full of cutthroats =near our camp. Fresh fish appealed to my partner and I more than the =noodles and other non-perishables that had become our staples. So one =day I did a harvest from the lake. The cutthroats were all in the 8 to =10 inch range, and I assailed them with little dries with delight. I =kept hearing spashings in the shallows, which I assumed were from a =mink. Well, after a while a giant cutthroat, maybe 22 inches or so, =swam right past me in 6 inches of water. I couldn't believe it. I was =a novice fly fisher then, and the tiny dries seemed silly to tempt such =a big fish with. I craved the meat - more from the one fish than I had =on my entire stringer. So I sought to stone it. I picked up a fist =sized rock, tiptoed close to it. There was only an inch or 2 of water =over its back. I let fly and missed. A funny thing happened. The fish =swirled away from the bank, then swam back in and resumed its course in =the shallows, parralel to the shore. I tried again. I must have flung =3 or 4 rocks at that fish before it disappeared. Now, this behavior =must seem like the most crude thing a fly fisher could do. Having done =it, though, I will say this: anybody who is capable of killing a trout =with a rock should be entitled to it. It is far more challenging than =tempting it with a dry fly! Peter Collin Subject: Re: Trout on shovel I would think that shovel fishing requires more skill than fly =fishing and is probably less of a strain on the resource because not as = Here in the Indiana/Michigan region of the Greta Lakes I have seen =guys down in the streams with pitch forks spearing salmon and steelhead. =Last year there were 5 Mexican migrant workers arrested for doing this = Bret that? Petr ----- Original Message ----- A. Collin Cc: Michael.Roberts@health.w= ; flyfishr@istar.ca ; harms1@pa.net ; oandc@email.msn.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Thursday, October 11, = AMSubject: Re: Trout on =shovel Since this thread just won't die, I = than the noodles and other non-perishables that had become our = 8 to 10 inch range, and I assailed them with little dries with = novice fly fisher then, and the tiny dries seemed silly to tempt such = swirled away from the bank, then swam back in and resumed its course = tempting it with a dry fly! Peter Collin ----- Original Message ----- Ackland Cc: Michael.Roberts@health.w= ; flyfishr@istar.ca ; harms1@pa.net ; oandc@email.msn.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Wednesday, October 10, = AMSubject: Re: Trout on =shovelBret. I would think that shovel fishing requires = skill than fly fishing and is probably less of a strain on the = because not as much water can be covered. Terry, PS. An all = Grhghlndr@aol.comwrote: = the Indiana/Michigan region of the Greta Lakes I have seen guys = year there were 5 Mexican migrant workers arrested for doing this = from chrisjk@bigpond.com Thu Oct 11 03:38:27 2001 f9B8cQ407008 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:38:26 - mailin3.email.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with Oct 2001 18:44:43 +1000 V2.9k 8335/314526); 11 Oct 2001 18:44:43 Subject: Unsubscribe Please remove me from list Chris Kriekenbeek. Please remove list Kriekenbeek. from petermckean@netspace.net.au Thu Oct 11 03:55:28 2001 f9B8tQ407350 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:55:26 - f9B8swT78134; Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? Daryl darker rods. Covers up a few of the cosmetic blemishes in the cane, too; =bamboo costs A$100 a culm over here, and it makes me weep tears of pure=blood to have to discard strips that are perfectly sound just because =they have a few brown smudges on them. And you do get a bit tired of =having ALL your personal rods look like they have Ebola Zaire. Until recently, I have always given them a second heat treatment in my =bamboo oven after initial planing. For a long time I used give them this =second treatment in a wood-fired brick baker's oven that a local =patisserie was happy to let me use. It was a sort of classy way to treat =bamboo, having a cup of coffee and some scrolls while the bamboo toasted =in a 150 year-old brick oven. But I decided to build my own. As far as =I know, my oven is accurate, though not to the stage of paranoia. I =always had a satisfactory result using both methods. planing without the second heating. I felt guilty about it for a while, =but you know, I am still happy with the results - in fact, I can't tell =the difference. I will say that I heat pretty comprehensively with the flame burner, and =the liquid fairly foams out of the culms while I am doing it; I start in =the middle and move out sequentially to both ends. I guess I consider =that I am heat treating my bamboo, but am always given a little bit of =pause every time I read one of the posts on this list that emphasise the =absolute need for the total accuracy of the heat applied. Any comments? I mean,,just how accurate can I be with a gas flame and an =eyeball? Peter Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? Since my post about making the unheat treated rod I've been getting =emails from several people asking about how I heat treat my bamboo and =why. Instead of writing the same thing over and over I think it might be = I did a series of experiments with heat treating, all the way from no =heat treatment at all up to triple flaming a culm and making a rod out =of it. You see all the experiments on single strips or sections of =strips are fine to give us an idea of where to start, but my reasoning = The heat treatment I settled on is flaming. I flame the inside pith =side of a half culm and then wire brush away the charcoaled pith. All I =ever have left to make a rod is the what I call power fibers, but I know = Does this damage the (power) fibers? Probably yes - but I would much =rather have a dry fly rod that is stiff and springy that (maybe) lasts =half as long as a rod that is soft and slow because it wasn't heat =treated as much (I do have a couple nymphing/soft hackle rods that are =purposely made to be slow). If my rods give out on me 25 years from now =instead of lasting 50 or 100 years, that's fine, I'll just make new =ones. I'll probably have made new ones in the meantime anyway. One of = Daryl blemishes in the cane, too; bamboo costs A$100 a culm over here, and it = weep tears of pure blood to have to discard strips that are perfectly = = Zaire. second heat treatment in my bamboo oven after initial planing. For a = used give them this second treatment in a wood-fired brick baker's = way to treat bamboo, having a cup of coffee and some scrolls while the = methods. directly to final planing without the second heating. I felt guilty = tell the difference. I will say that I heat pretty = the flame burner, and the liquid fairly foams out of the culms = doing it; I start in the middle and move out sequentially to both ends. = the absolute need for the total accuracy of the heat =applied. Any comments? I mean,,just howaccurate = with a gas flame and an eyeball? Peter ----- Original Message ----- DNHayashida@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 11, = AMSubject: Re: What is heat = for? post about making the unheat treated rod I've been getting emails from = people asking about how I heat treat my bamboo and why. Instead of = same thing over and over I think it might be better to put it on the = all to see. I did a series of experiments with heat treating, = way from no heat treatment at all up to triple flaming a culm and = out of it. You see all the experiments on single strips or sections of = are fine to give us an idea of where to start, but my reasoning is = it perform as a rod?" The heat treatment I settled on is = flame the inside pith side of a half culm and then wire brush away the = charcoaled pith. All I ever have left to make a rod is the what I call = fibers, but I know "power fibers" means different things to different = Does this damage the (power) fibers? Probably yes - but I = rather have a dry fly rod that is stiff and springy that (maybe) lasts = long as a rod that is soft and slow because it wasn't heat treated as = do have a couple nymphing/soft hackle rods that are purposely made to = slow). If my rods give out on me 25 years from now instead of lasting = 100 years, that's fine, I'll just make new ones. I'll probably have = ones in the meantime anyway. One of the advantages of making them = Darryl Hayashida from petermckean@netspace.net.au Thu Oct 11 04:05:04 2001 f9B953407702 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:05:03 - f9B950T80017; Subject: Re: winston taper Hello! Hello! Hello! Do we have yet another covey here of "tight- lippedwankers"? Martin? Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: winston taper My feelings exactly. I tried last year to get Winston to share their tapers but they wouldn't. I guess I can't blame them. Anyway I've never cast one of their bamboo rods and would love to see some tapers if anyone has any, orhas a rod they'd be willing to mic. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:52 PM Subject: winston taper My favorite rod maker among the 'plastic' rods by far is Winston. I own a3wt LT 5pc rod and really like how it flexes well into the lower sections.I have never had the oportunity to play with the bamboo rods that this fine company makes. Does anyone on the list have experience with Winston bamboo? Does anyone have a taper for a 3,4 or 5 wt rod they would share with me? from petermckean@netspace.net.au Thu Oct 11 04:31:19 2001 f9B9VI408145 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:31:18 - f9B9VGT83911; Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Hello again, Tony I really don't know whether Martin has got it technically right, but hestates his case so elegantly that I am not about to dispute it; BUT, itdoesn't seem to me that it is necessary to assume chemical changes takeplace in any of his examples save "caramelisation" and "carbonisation" - allthe other things are probably physical changes. My understanding of the processes by which water is moved up plant stemsisthat there are basically two different processes working in mutual support;(a) while the organism is living, there are active osmotic gradientsmaintained at the cost of energy expenditure by the cells. This processnecessarily ceases on death of the organism, as the required energy issupplied as a result of metabolic processes which are a function of life (b)capillary action. Obviously, heat treating can effectively terminate both processes (as aninteresting aside, this is probably why some people burn the stems of cutflowers to prolong their vase life; it stops the processes of nutrientmovement up the stem, and thereby slows metabolic degradation of theflower), but I don't think that either depends on chemical change. I would be a more willing convert to the doctrine of heat treating if only Icould ever find any great degree of consensus about the parameters of theprocess. No three authors agree, and the discrepancies are quiteconsiderable! Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Fear alone. No doubt about it. At 08:00 PM 10/10/01 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote: Terry A. makes a good point. Discussing what cane should do and what itactually does is the enigma. I know what I have observed and come to aconclusion, from this I make decisions. Now Terry has had experiencesunique unto himself and so he does things his way, and so it should be. I have never seen a rod go noodle before. I would think it is due toreabsorption of moisture, makes sense. What also makes sense is if thatmoisture cane reenter the cane it should be able to be removed by areverse process...drying. Upon drying the rod it still remained a noodle. What would cause that?Moisture present cane soft, moisture driven off cane stiff. Seems logical. Terry drying that rod resulted in it still being a noodle, but shouldn'tit have been stiff? What could have caused the cane to remain in such astate if it had been dried? We soak strips until saturated to plane and then dry them. They return toa rigid state upon drying. Maybe something other then moisture can causecane to become soft. Maybe we think Terry's rod became soft by moisture only because it istheonly cause we are familiar with. Could there be another?Any thoughts? Adam Vigil /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from chrisjk@bigpond.com Thu Oct 11 04:42:51 2001 (may be forged)) f9B9gn408470 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:42:50 - ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:49:11 +1000 V2.9k 8335/375823); 11 Oct 2001 19:49:11 Subject: unsubscribe Please arrangeChris Kriekenbeek Please =arrangeChris =Kriekenbeek from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Oct 11 05:37:11 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9BAbA409169 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 05:37:10 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 05:37:13 -0500 "'avyoung@iinet.net.au '" Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good Peter -- You wrote "I would be a more willing convert to the doctrine of heattreating if only I could ever find any great degree of consensus about theparameters of the process. No three authors agree, and the discrepanciesarequite considerable!" I don't think the many methods of heating you read about are as diverse asit may seem, or have anything to do with the value of heat treating. Forexample, I roast eight or ten nodeless culm sections (NOT split strips, butthe unsplit and half-round pieces of whole culms left after the nodes aresawed out) at 375F for longer than most people roast their bamboo, rotatingthem regularly. But that's a few pounds of bamboo in a relatively smallkitchen oven and I do it until it reaches a slightly darker color thanbefore cooking and has a characteristic smell (which others have reported).Turns out that's about the same result Millwards's work suggests in termsofcolor change. (We call that a Random Success where I work, which makes iteasier to consider our screwups Random Failures.) But most people areroasting very thin strips bound together in a few thin sections. Seemsnatural from my experience as an amateur (but daily) cook that cooking timewould be very different. Flaming is harder to control but those who reportconsistent success seem to use methods that are able to heat all the powerfibers, not just the very surface. As in cooking food, a recipe for cookingpounds of something involves much more time and energy than for the samething in very tiny (several ounce) quantities. This reminds me of cooking asparagus. (Most things remind me of food.) Ifyou have four pots of boiling water of 2, 4, 6 and 8 quarts, and you haveasparagus ranging from the thinnest to the thickest edible stalks, and youput varying numbers of stalks into these pots, you have a lot of possiblecombinations of cooking time for the same result. But if you know how crispor tender you want them to end up, you can figure out a fairly regularprocedure for any given combination. If you're cooking for a family of 6 andhave three pounds of thick stalks, it will be way different from cooking afew thin strips for just you and your skinny girlfriend to eat with yoursushi. But of course, for some reason, some asparagus just takes a littlelonger to get tender than other stalks of the same size, all else beingequal. That will always be true of a vegetable like bamboo, too. So there seems to be good evidence that our recipes should produce at leasta slight darkening, with the darkest end of the acceptable range lessclearly defined. There are lots of ways to get there, but that's the natureof being a grass chef. These variations in no way indicate that the rawgrass is the same as the cooked, but are typical of all cooking. I hope allyou housewife rodmakers out there will back me up. IMHO. Barry from horsesho@ptd.net Thu Oct 11 05:37:55 2001 f9BAbs409285 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 05:37:55 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4164. . Clean. Processed in 0.434935 secs); 11 Oct 200110:33:32 -0000 sender ) Subject: another Winston taper from the "Phantom Rodmaker" Here is another Winston cane taper. This is a fine casting 7 1/2' #5rod with a medium to medium fast action. All Winston rods weather Cane,Graphite or Glass (older glass not that new 8' 3pc. rod) are finecasting rods. Measured over varnish deduct .004 Winston 7 1/2' #5 2/2 (Montana Made) TIP BUTT00 .076" .200"05 .092 .20710 .105 .22115 .119 .23520 .135 .25225 .146 .26530 .155 .28335 .166 .30040 .184 ( .302 @ 35 3/4" start of grip) 45 .190 Guide spacing from TT / 4 1/2" , 9 3/8 , 15 1/2 , 21 3/4 , 28 3/4 ,35 7/8, 43 , 51 1/4 , 60 (stripper) 3 1/2" C&R seat W/ 6' Cork gripGood Luck,Marty DeSapioAge 45, ht. 5' 11," wt. 215 , eyes brn, hair gray,occupation builder /contractor, married W/ 3 children from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 11 05:56:12 2001 f9BAuB409874 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 05:56:11 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good BarryAs a single man, which I could back you up on the cooking part, Barry,but with the occasional exception of Shrimp Creole, Crawfish Etouffe,Gumbo,Jambalaya and other such southern delights, Pizza Hut and WarehouseWillie'sSteak House & Saloon do most of my cooking (McDonalds when the kids arehere, but I don't really consider that food!)! Well, I do make theoccasional Stuffed Mushroom, and ribs that are so good you can put one ontop your head and your tongue will beat your brains out trying to get ataste...Only thing I could add is that you gotta cook your shrimp til it changescolor... guess bamboo is the same. Just, like shrimp, don't overcook it, orit aint worth a damn. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good Peter -- You wrote "I would be a more willing convert to the doctrine of heattreating if only I could ever find any great degree of consensus about theparameters of the process. No three authors agree, and the discrepancies are quite considerable!" I don't think the many methods of heating you read about are as diverse asit may seem, or have anything to do with the value of heat treating. Forexample, I roast eight or ten nodeless culm sections (NOT split strips, but the unsplit and half-round pieces of whole culms left after the nodes aresawed out) at 375F for longer than most people roast their bamboo, rotating them regularly. But that's a few pounds of bamboo in a relatively smallkitchen oven and I do it until it reaches a slightly darker color thanbefore cooking and has a characteristic smell (which others have reported). Turns out that's about the same result Millwards's work suggests in terms of color change. (We call that a Random Success where I work, which makes iteasier to consider our screwups Random Failures.) But most people areroasting very thin strips bound together in a few thin sections. Seemsnatural from my experience as an amateur (but daily) cook that cooking time would be very different. Flaming is harder to control but those who reportconsistent success seem to use methods that are able to heat all thepowerfibers, not just the very surface. As in cooking food, a recipe for cooking pounds of something involves much more time and energy than for thesamething in very tiny (several ounce) quantities. This reminds me of cooking asparagus. (Most things remind me of food.) Ifyou have four pots of boiling water of 2, 4, 6 and 8 quarts, and you haveasparagus ranging from the thinnest to the thickest edible stalks, and youput varying numbers of stalks into these pots, you have a lot of possiblecombinations of cooking time for the same result. But if you know how crisp or tender you want them to end up, you can figure out a fairly regularprocedure for any given combination. If you're cooking for a family of 6 and have three pounds of thick stalks, it will be way different from cooking afew thin strips for just you and your skinny girlfriend to eat with yoursushi. But of course, for some reason, some asparagus just takes a littlelonger to get tender than other stalks of the same size, all else beingequal. That will always be true of a vegetable like bamboo, too. So there seems to be good evidence that our recipes should produce at least a slight darkening, with the darkest end of the acceptable range lessclearly defined. There are lots of ways to get there, but that's the nature of being a grass chef. These variations in no way indicate that the rawgrass is the same as the cooked, but are typical of all cooking. I hope all you housewife rodmakers out there will back me up. IMHO. Barry from dickay@alltel.net Thu Oct 11 07:48:44 2001 f9BCmh411525 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:48:43 - srv.alltel.net Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:48:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Bluing forms? Wayne, Actually, good Chrome plating is a three step process. It is Copper,then Nickel, and then Chrome. But as Mike suggests it can be very thin. Ihave seen planing forrms stored in a sock similiar to a rod bag. The sockhad been sprayed with WD-40. Remember that WD-40 claims to displacemoisture. I would think that I would want to wipe down forms stored thisway with alcohol prior to use to remove any oil or mineral spirits to keepit off the cane so that glue and the finish would stick. Awhile back therewas a similiar discussion on this and Butchers wax was suggested. Also sameproblem. I'm like Harry. A little sand paper every now and then.Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Bluing forms? Hi Wayne,I'm pretty sure the thickness of chrome plating is measured in microns, so I don't think you'd have to bother making allowances for it. Mike -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2001 6:43 I have considered chrome. Ray Gould suggests it in his book. Do you knowoffhand what the thickness of the chrome plating? I would imagine one would have to take the grooves down an equal amount to compensate or refilethegrooves afterward. Ideas?Wayne from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 11 08:17:05 2001 f9BDH4412408 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:17:04 - Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Harry,Sorry, but I have never found anything that is irreversible in heat treatingand I amnot looking for "technical" explanations of what should be happening.I just state what I have observed. I am not charging for it so I feel no need todefend it.Why did Orvis produce impregnated rods and many contemporary rodmakersoffer similarproducts if heat treating did the business.I like the colour heat treatment produces but the same "snap" can beproduced in avacuum chamber without heat. Yes, I do have a vacuum chamber and a hivacpump.I have cooked cane in a vacuum and found by accident that it still works evenwhenalmost black. I have experimented with impregnating by both vac andpressure. This iswith rod length strips and glued up blanks, not french fry size pieces.I am a cynical bugger and would rather find out for myself whenever possiblethan toparrotRember that guy with the beard, Canadian I think, that said that everythingwith amicrochip would stop running at midnight 2000 and hardly anyone disputedhim?Terry Harry Boyd wrote: Terry, Since you freely confess your unwillingness to read and discuss the meritsofother folks findings (scientific or not), you are forced to rely only on yourownfeelings and findings. Much scientific work has been done to prove yourconclusions are wrong. Yet you seem to insist on promoting the same tiredold repeatedlypropound the shortsightedness of those who are unwilling to learn forthemselves.And I seem to remember that you harp on others not to repeat the sameold tiredfindings of Garrison, Cattanach, and others. If real evidence doesn'tconvinceyou, you are guilty of that which you accuse others of doing, my friend. Rather than spend time and energy promoting those same ideas with abunch ofus who don't know anything about building rods (including me -- I've onlybuiltabout 50 rods), take a day or two to read through Bob Milward's book. I'llbeglad to loan you my copy, just forward your mailing address. I think youmight besurprised to learn what in-depth experimentation has actually been done. matter, come on down to SRG and hear Martin Darrell Odom (jojo) talkabout some ofhis preliminary findings. Check the archives for some of the work of AdamVigil.No one is re-hashing Garrison/Carmichael here. This is good stuff based onsoundthinking and hard work. What you seem to be touting is the same old stuffyouwere saying two years ago. Most of us have moved past that. You shouldtoo. Guess I'm just trying to say that you're just plain wrong. The removal ofhydrating water is NOT completely reversible. The rest is not debatableeither.Real live tests prove it. Harry PS - I know better than to get into this, but just couldn't overcome thetemptation :-)) "T. Ackland" wrote: The removal of hydrating water, which is the most important, isreversible andthe rest is debatable. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from lblove@omniglobal.net Thu Oct 11 08:28:07 2001 f9BDS7413425 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:28:07 - "'oandc@email.msn.com'" ,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Bluing forms? f9BDS7413426 Hello all, The thickness will depend on the process thatis used to deposit the chrome. Some of the processesare electroless some are electro based. The stuff thatyou want "hard chromed" is deposited over a thin layerof copper, this stuff must be machined down to finish size after the plating process. You will need a surface grinder to machine this stuff down on a set of forms.All the hard chrome that I know of is electro plated. The other stuff is what the engineers call "flash chrome" which is just a layer approx. .0002" -.0004" thickness to the side. This stuff comes back looking nice and not needing any additional machining(it will show machining marks thru the chrome, because of the lack of depth and lack of secondary machining).The flash chrome is usually put on "cheap" parts to increasethe service life of the part or keep it from rusting in service. Black oxide finish is an option that could be done at any decentaircraft manufactoring based company. I am pretty sure they wouldbe glad to see anybody show up with any kind of work right now,the list of furloughed aircraft workers just keeps growing as the days go by...but on a upside, I can fish when its not raining out see you on the streamBrad *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/11/01 at 10:11 AM Roberts, Michael wrote: Hi Wayne,I'm pretty sure the thickness of chrome plating is measuredin microns, so I don't think you'd have to bother making allowances for it.Mike -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2001 6:43 I have considered chrome. Ray Gould suggests it in his book. Do you knowoffhand what the thickness of the chrome plating? I would imagine onewouldhave to take the grooves down an equal amount to compensate or refile thegrooves afterward. Ideas?Wayne from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 11 08:32:24 2001 f9BDWO413819 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:32:24 - Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? FD8370BE95D7D57C372A4839" --------------FD8370BE95D7D57C372A4839 Peter,Len Codella, who seem to know a litle about bamboo mentioned to me oncethat flaming was first used during the cane embargo co cover upblemishes in what cane they had left.This seems like a reasonable explantion knowing the fact that these oldguy were craftsmen rather that todays rodmakers/scientists.Terry Peter McKean wrote: Daryl For various reasons, I flame my rods; mainly because I likethe look of darker rods. Covers up a few of the cosmetic blemishes inthe cane, too; bamboo costs A$100 a culm over here, and it makes meweep tears of pure blood to have to discard strips that are perfectlysound just because they have a few brown smudges on them. And you doget a bit tired of having ALL your personal rods look like they haveEbola Zaire. Until recently, I have always given them a second heattreatment in my bamboo oven after initial planing. For a long time Iused give them this second treatment in a wood- fired brick baker'soven that a local patisserie was happy to let me use. It was a sortof classy way to treat bamboo, having a cup of coffee and some scrollswhile the bamboo toasted in a 150 year-old brick oven. But I decidedto build my own. As far as I know, my oven is accurate, though not tothe stage of paranoia. I always had a satisfactory result using bothmethods. For the last few rods, though, I have just gone on directlyto final planing without the second heating. I felt guilty about it fact, I can't tell the difference. I will say that I heat prettycomprehensively with the flame burner, and the liquid fairly foams outof the culms while I am doing it; I start in the middle and move outsequentially to both ends. I guess I consider that I am heat treatingmy bamboo, but am always given a little bit of pause every time I readone of the posts on this list that emphasise the absolute need for thetotal accuracy of the heat applied. Any comments? I mean,,just howaccurate can I be with a gas flame and an eyeball? Peter ----- Original Message -----From: DNHayashida@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 6:32 AMSubject: Re: What is heat treating for?Since my post about making the unheat treated rod I've beengetting emails from several people asking about how I heattreat my bamboo and why. Instead of writing the same thingover and over I think it might be better to put it on thelist for all to see. I did a series of experiments with heat treating, all theway from no heat treatment at all up to triple flaming aculm and making a rod out of it. You see all the experimentson single strips or sections of strips are fine to give usan idea of where to start, but my reasoning is "How does itperform as a rod?" The heat treatment I settled on is flaming. I flame theinside pith side of a half culm and then wire brush away thecharcoaled pith. All I ever have left to make a rod is thewhat I call power fibers, but I know "power fibers" meansdifferent things to different people. Does this damage the (power) fibers? Probably yes - but Iwould much rather have a dry fly rod that is stiff andspringy that (maybe) lasts half as long as a rod that issoft and slow because it wasn't heat treated as much (I dohave a couple nymphing/soft hackle rods that are purposelymade to be slow). If my rods give out on me 25 years fromnow instead of lasting 50 or 100 years, that's fine, I'lljust make new ones. I'll probably have made new ones in themeantime anyway. One of the advantages of making themyourself. Darryl Hayashida --------------FD8370BE95D7D57C372A4839 Peter,Len Codella, who seem to know a litle about bamboo mentioned to meonce that flaming was first used during the cane embargo co cover upblemishesin what cane they had left.This seems like a reasonable explantion knowing the fact that theseold guy were craftsmen rather that todays rodmakers/scientists.Terry Peter McKean wrote: various reasons, I flame my rods; mainly because I like the look of darkerrods. Covers up a few of the cosmetic blemishes in the cane, too; bamboocosts A$100 a culm over here, and it makes me weep tears of pure bloodto have to discard strips that are perfectly sound just because they havea few brown smudges on them. And you do get a bit tired of havingALLyour personal rods look like they have Ebola recently, I have always given them a second heat treatment in my bamboooven after initial planing. For a long time I used give them this second was happy to let me use. It was a sort of classy way to treat bamboo, havinga cup of coffee and some scrolls while the bamboo toasted in a 150 year-old my oven is accurate, though not to the stage of paranoia. I always had the last few rods, though, I have just gone on directly to final planingwithout the second heating. I felt guilty about it for a while, but youknow, I am still happy with the results - in fact, I can't tell the will say that I heat pretty comprehensively with the flame burner, andthe liquid fairly foams out of the culms while I am doing it; I start inthe middle and move out sequentially to both ends. I guess I consider thatI am heat treating my bamboo, but am always given a little bit of pauseevery time I read one of the posts on this list that emphasise the absoluteneed for the total accuracy of the heat comments? I mean,,just how accurate can I be with a gas flame and an ----- Original Message ----- From:DNHayashida@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 11, 20016:32AM Subject: Re: What is heat treatingfor? my post about making the unheat treated rod I've been getting emails fromseveral people asking about how I heat treat my bamboo and why. Insteadof writing the same thing over and over I think it might be better to putit on the list for all to see. I dida series of experiments with heat treating, all the way from no heattreatmentat all up to triple flaming a culm and making a rod out of it. You seeall the experiments on single strips or sections of strips are fine togive us an idea of where to start, but my reasoning is "How does it performas a rod?" Theheat treatment I settled on is flaming. I flame the inside pith side ofa half culm and then wire brush away the charcoaled pith. All I ever haveleft to make a rod is the what I call power fibers, but I know "power fibers"means different things to different people. Doesthis damage the (power) fibers? Probably yes - but I would much ratherhave a dry fly rod that is stiff and springy that (maybe) lasts half aslong as a rod that is soft and slow because it wasn't heat treated as much(I do have a couple nymphing/soft hackle rods that are purposely made tobe slow). If my rods give out on me 25 years from now instead of lasting50 or 100 years, that's fine, I'll just make new ones. I'll probably havemade new ones in the meantime anyway. One of the advantages of makingthemyourself. DarrylHayashida --------------FD8370BE95D7D57C372A4839-- from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Thu Oct 11 08:45:58 2001 f9BDju414521 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:45:56 - IAA20186; GAA25964; f9BDjdm08026; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:45:39 -0700 "T. Ackland" Subject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content isn't that like saying that if you kiln dry wood that it changes so that itwont absorb and dry out in relation to the humidity in the air? If thetissue absorbed moisture in the first place heat treating wont stop that from happening, that's the nature of the material. Bamboo may not be woodbut it acts and reacts just like it and has the same binding substancebetween the tubes. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content Terry - I can see how you would interpret it that way, but I believe you've drawn abroader conclusion than the experience warrants, especially since some ofthose books seem to be based on real experience, too. Here's an explanationthat could account for your story without concluding that heat treatment isuseless. Suppose heat treating changes the structure of the bamboo in such a waythatsome of the tissues no longer absorb water readily, and in ways that make astrip stiffer and stronger. It may also enhance its tendency to dampvibration, though I haven't seen anything systematic on that. But anyway, itchanges the structure in ways that make it better for making rods.Relatively short term exposure to very wet conditions will not make such arod into a noodle (as many people's experience attests), though I'm not sureit would have no effect at all. Even being in damp Midwestern air for weeksat a time here in Missouri doesn't make it soft. But if someone stores a rodin a saturated atmosphere, perhaps also with heat, for long enough, it'spossible for the structures in the bamboo (including those that had beenaltered by heat) to begin to break down due to long term swelling or eventhe action of bacteria. I'll bet that tube stank when he opened it. Anyway,it's perfectly consistent to think that heat treating makes bamboo better the bamboo in ways that made it useless and limp. to heat and might explain the occasional rod that seems an exception to therule (not that this applies to your instance, since I'm sure the rod wasfine when you shipped it out). Barry PS As far as I'm concerned, anyone who can't take a little shovel- fishingaction along with discussions like this one, and like the others I've seenlately on basic issues like making forms and the minimum gear needed tomakerods - well, it just gives me one more good idea about where to shove ashovel. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Barry,I once had a rod returned to me by Codella because a customer said it wassoft.The guy had the rod for a couple of years and had not complained before. Ichecked it out and it was amazing, I could have tied it in a knot. This wascaneheat treated @ 375F for .75hr! I tried to dry it out but I ended up makinganew rod.I did not think too much on how the rod became so soft, I was justembarrassedand wanted to fix it as soon as possible.I put the new rod in the tube and when I slipped the rod into the mailingtube Inoticed that the brass cap on the bottom of the aluminium tube was blackandcorroded as if it had been in water for a long time.I called up the owner of the rod and we talked about how the rod was storedandwhen I suggested that the rod had been in water he started to stutter like abastard.The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a cap thatsomehowhad water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was juststored ina very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid westIf I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sent itbackto him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing topreventmoisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry Kling, Barry W. wrote: I should probably keep quiet, but.... from all I've seen and read, there are two purposes for heat treating. One is to remove moisture. But that istemporary to some degree. By far the more important purpose is toactuallychange the structure of the bamboo so that the parts of the bamboo that are most critical to a rod's action are no longer made limp when exposed towater. Milward's book suggests this occurs when the cane (not just thesurface) darkens slightly. Too much darkening can actually damage the fibers (though perhapd not critically if not taken too far) This doesn't mean nowater is absorbed by such a rod, though I believe most well designed testsshow it's less than for untreated bamboo. But it means that whateverwateris absorbed after tempering, it doesn't change the action very much, if atall. I don't think this is much of a mystery. Other listers have commented thatit's well known that woods change internal structure when heat tempered.Milward's book goes a long way toward proving it for bambboo. And we allknow two critical facts - no finish can keep a rod from absorbing watereventually (and we even have heard extreme examples like rods recoveredafter being awash for weeks) and most rods in spite of this don't varyperceptibly when they are fished on a humid Midwestern pond and then a high dry mountain stream, after plenty of time to gradually accommodate toambient humidity. Granted, there are rods that are "heat treated" but not enough to change the structure. These are the ones that act like wet noodles when wet and thenbehave when dry. No mystery in that - it simply means they were neveradequately tempered to the extent that the internal structure changed. I don't mean to sound like there's no mystery to any of this, but the basic practical question of why we do it and what we're trying to accomplish is, I believe, fairly well answered. Flame away! Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 1:06 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm sorry I have to put words in your mouth with this statement.To reiterate, what exactly, is heat treating for? For the statedobjectives that I have heard, it doesn't really sound like an option. Ifheat treating really does remove moisture and result in a stiffer cane,and a slight weight reduction, are you saying that there are rods tobuild out there where these characteristics are not desired or required?Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm not certain there is a better or worse way of doing all this it'sjustthat the different methods give different results and you need toexperiment and see what you like.Once you see what you like do it the same way every time, there are alotof methods you just need to choose one. Tony At 10:07 AM 10/7/01 -0700, Wayne Kifer wrote: My understanding is that we should definitely heat treat but I'mleaning toward a lengthily seasoning to slowly lower the moisturecontent to under 6%. from everything I've learned from the wisdom onthe list this will create a stronger strip. The task would seem to beto control the reintroduction of moisture in the finished rod. The jury still seems to be out on how to accomplish this. At least those in theknow aren't giving up their secrets. Wayne :^)----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:54 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Sure sounds like maybe we shouldn't be heat treating eh? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Fw: Optimum moisture content I would think it would be an indication of equal stresses, andaccordingly strength, throughout the length of the strip. Definitelydesirable. Wayne----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:32 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Do you think that the bending in a smoother curve would bedesirable? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Patrick WSent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:18 AM oandc@email.msn.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content there is a difference between air drying and kiln drying (heattreating). I have a piece of bamboo D. Holbrook gave me in 1970 that was never heat treated and it is just as stiff as the ones that Iheat treat except it seems to bend in a smoother curve. My boss at theviolin shop told me it was like making Jell-O in either a icebox orthe oven, they both come out at Jell-O but are totally different intexture. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:48 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content This heat treating stuff really is a strange one isn't it? Terrysays no matter what coating you use if the rod is left with a wet rag in atube it'll become spaghetti. The US dept of Forrestry (or whatever it's name is) say heating wood in no way hardens it so even though spear points used by ancientcultures seem very hard after carbonising there isn't a scientific reason toexpect this even though I've lived around people who do still livethe old ways and their spear points _look_ and _feel_ harder thanthey were before carbonising them in fires and if the spear gets wet the point always seems to get hard again upon drying. Aboriginals of Australia have a reputation what canbe a savage place to live so if they've been carbonising spearpoints for 40,000 years I think it's worth noting. Then again you can drive the moisture out by vacuum or even steam. If you steam heat timber for bending you'll have a different texture to the wood after steaming it than before and if you use kiln driedtimber it'll behave differently to naturaly dried timber. Usinggreen wood is normallybest but in any case you usually don't get two chances at bending using steam. If you don't get it first time you'll normally break the laminate next time you try. You also notice that broken laminates that havebeen steamed have a different texture beyond simply raised grain,break differently (they will normally break along the grain in amore pronouncedmanner) and are drier than the sister laminates that have not beensteamed. If you heat treat bamboo before planing as you normally would whenmaking nodeless rods it's a _lot_ harder to plane than if you planethe bamboo "green" or even wet as you do when making the rodnormally and this is thecase even if the bamboo is left for months after being heat treatedwhich suggests to me heat treating does do something which isirreversible. It'sjust too difficult for me to believe the cells and chemicals making up thebamboo aren't permanently altered by heating so it would be veryinteresting indeed to compare drying by heat and vacuum as the vacuum wouldnot alter the chemicals or not in the say way though the cells would be ruptured.Just compare freeze dried ice cream you can buy for backpacking with what you'd get if you tried drying ice cream in an oven. It's adifferent operation. The bamboo does become useless when wet but once it dries again I'dthink it would go back to the way it was after heat treating and not as it was before heat treating. As an aside, when a rod is impregnated is it done by vacuum followed pressurized then the addition of the media or pressurized with themedia? Tony At 06:26 AM 10/7/01 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: A pressure chamber is of little value, what you need is a vacuumchamber. Driving whatever glop you prefer into the blank takes only about 10-15 minutes at 30"hg vacuum. That way the rod is notsoaked through and it is not as heavy. I always tried to get in to about .006-.008" deep. As an aside the chamber would be an excellent way to run anexperiment to see what percentage of the improvement due to heattreating can be attributed to the heating and polymerization andhow much is due to the simple drying out of the cane. An hour or two in the vacuum tankwill dry the cane out without heat. Hot dog! What a can of worms! A.J. From: "Wayne Kifer" Subject: Optimum moisture contentDate: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:14:09 -0700 I understand that the only way to prevent moisture gain in a rodwould beto impregnate the glued sections prior to applying the finish.Exotic woods and other materials such as mastodon ivory, and dearand elk antler slabs used for knife handles are impregnated under pressure. Might not an acceptable result be obtained if the sections were dried to lessthan 6Ÿ moisture content and heated in a vacuum to expand the cellstructure to enhance absorption of a sealing compound introduced into thevacuum chamber? A much less expensive setup to build than apressure chamber I would think. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Thu Oct 11 08:46:30 2001 f9BDkS414633 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:46:29 - GAA09059; GAA26395; f9BDkKm09163; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:46:21 -0700 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content I think that you are right on with your comments about water reabsorbtion.In that aspect I think, just my opinion, that bamboo is like wood- a bundleof hollow tubes that absorb and give off moisture no mater what you dothem.The key is keeping them in a dry environment when not in use. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content TomI tried drying it out slowly, I tried turning up the heat and I could notget therod back to how it was. Did not notice any splitting.Terry TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/10/1 11:31:20 PM, hexagon@odyssee.net writes: prevent moisture penetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate. >> Terry - I never interpreted anything said on this subject to say that heattreated cane won't reabsorb any water. In normal atsmopheric conditions, it just doesn't reabsorb as much, and I doubt that the difference is more than a few percent. If you insist on storing a rod in a steam bath, or under water, maybe the same thing doesn't happen, or maybe it does. When yousaturate the stuff, and the moisture content is in the 50% or more range, what difference does a couple percent make? Either way you could tie the rod in a knot.Should this kind of misfortune befall anyone, the worst thing you can do is try to dry the rod quickly. The outer portion of the cane will dry out andshrink, causingsplits because the core of the rod will still be wet and swollen. Let the rod slowly dry out in a basement, or maybe even in a plastic bag.. from lblove@omniglobal.net Thu Oct 11 09:00:15 2001 f9BE0E415507 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:00:14 - Subject: Re: Planing form question for a newbie f9BE0F415509 Just a thought,I moved the centerline of the holes 1mmor .040" off center of the 3/4" barstock centerline.This allows for .440" flat to flat in the buttsection. Just make sure you drag the deep groove in the correct side of the material. I felt thatthe extra room was worth the try. Brad *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/9/01 at 6:59 PM Jojo DeLancier wrote: Jon, Were I to make new forms I would use the 1" x 1". The extra width of theforms will give you more support for the plane, though it is not needed,butthe extra depth will allow you to make some rods with really large diameterbutts, if you so choose. Because of the shoulder bolts I used in my 3/4" x3/4"forms, I could only get butt diameters of .368. across the flats. M-D From: "Jon Burningham" Hello all! BIG SNIP Currently, I am considering making them from1" X 1" stock. Ok, now for my question for real.... Is there any benefit to having wider planing forms?Or is there a reason that I should keep them smallerlike those I see on Thomas Penrose's website (3/4" X3/4" stock)? MORE SNIPPING That's all for now, Jon Burningham from cfreaner@hq.nasa.gov Thu Oct 11 09:11:01 2001 f9BEB0416169 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:11:00 - for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:09:01 - Subject: Hide Glue I was looking for something else, and happened to notice this place carries Hide Glue. I know nothing about the product and have no financial dealings with the company - just providing information. http://www.hideandfur.com/inventory/79900004.html Claude from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Thu Oct 11 09:41:19 2001 f9BEfI417691 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:41:18 - Subject: Re: What is heat treating for? This is a quote from the web page of the Paul H. Young Rod Co.This company have 3 generations experience of rodmaking.I believe that counts for something: "We believe that the tempering of the cane is one of the most critical = operations in the making of a truly fine rod. If not done properly, = rod does not have the strength and power that it is capable of. " As some of You might have noticed, I am a paraholic withan urge to flame - cane that is. I could not imagineto make a rod without heattreating it in my "Pipe of Fire" Still I must admit that years ago I made a rod which turnedout to be a noodle. I still have it, and it is still a noodle.It was flamed, in fact done like any other rod, and still....It is kept in my office, so it is kept in a dry environment.I simply cannot imagine why this one rod turned outas a noodle, but well, so many things in life I cant figure out. regards, carsten This is a quote from the web page of = Young Rod Co.This company have 3 generations = rodmaking.I believe that counts for =something: "We believe that the tempering of the cane= the most critical operations in the making of a truly fine = done properly, the rod does not have the strength and power = capable of. " As some of You might have noticed, I am a = with an urge to flame - cane that is. I could = imagineto make a rod without heattreating it in my= Fire" Still I must admit that years ago I made a = turnedout to be a noodle. I still have it, and it = a noodle.It was flamed, in fact done like any other = still....It is kept in my office, so it is kept in a = environment.I simply cannot imagine why this one rod = outas a noodle, but well, so many things in = figure out. regards, carsten from jojo@ipa.net Thu Oct 11 09:52:20 2001 f9BEqG418712 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:52:19 -0500 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:52:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Peter, The removal of water is a chemical change, one that can, given the rightconditions precedent, prevent other chemical/physical changes future, andyou are heat treating if you are flaming. Merely subjecting anything toheat, per se, will not result in irreversible changes, but given enough timeand temp will reduce bamboo/wood to charcoal, which is an irreversiblechange. M-D Hello again, Tony I really don't know whether Martin has got it technically right, but hestates his case so elegantly that I am not about to dispute it; BUT, itdoesn't seem to me that it is necessary to assume chemical changes takeplace in any of his examples save "caramelisation" and "carbonisation" - all the other things are probably physical changes. BIG SNIP I would be a more willing convert to the doctrine of heat treating if only I could ever find any great degree of consensus about the parameters oftheprocess. No three authors agree, and the discrepancies are quiteconsiderable! Peter from paul@lifeware.com Thu Oct 11 11:15:54 2001 f9BGFs423804 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:15:54 - c0mailgw08.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.029) (NPlex 5.5.015) Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good, Crisp Excellent! While we're on the subject of wet and dry, let me ask this question. I madea rod a couple of years ago that's not as crisp as it use to be. It's not anoodle by any means, but just doesn't have that "fresh out of the shop"feeling that it use to have. I'm attributing it to moisture re-entry. Thequestion I ask is, can this finished rod be restored to its originalcrispness through a little heat? Can it be returned to the oven at a lowerheat without damaging the glue or finish? And if so, will it help? What arethe times and temps? The rod is made with Epon and finished with Poly. Iknow I've read of other people doing this, but can find it the archives. Paul York BarryAs a single man, which I could back you up on the cooking part, Barry,but with the occasional exception of Shrimp Creole, Crawfish Etouffe,Gumbo,Jambalaya and other such southern delights, Pizza Hut and WarehouseWillie'sSteak House & Saloon do most of my cooking (McDonalds when the kids arehere, but I don't really consider that food!)! Well, I do make theoccasional Stuffed Mushroom, and ribs that are so good you can put one ontop your head and your tongue will beat your brains out trying to get ataste...Only thing I could add is that you gotta cook your shrimp til it changescolor... guess bamboo is the same. Just, like shrimp, don't overcook it, orit aint worth a damn. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good Peter -- You wrote "I would be a more willing convert to the doctrine of heattreating if only I could ever find any great degree of consensus about theparameters of the process. No three authors agree, and the discrepancies are quite considerable!" I don't think the many methods of heating you read about are as diverse asit may seem, or have anything to do with the value of heat treating. Forexample, I roast eight or ten nodeless culm sections (NOT split strips, but the unsplit and half-round pieces of whole culms left after the nodes aresawed out) at 375F for longer than most people roast their bamboo, rotating them regularly. But that's a few pounds of bamboo in a relatively smallkitchen oven and I do it until it reaches a slightly darker color thanbefore cooking and has a characteristic smell (which others have reported). Turns out that's about the same result Millwards's work suggests in terms of color change. (We call that a Random Success where I work, which makes iteasier to consider our screwups Random Failures.) But most people areroasting very thin strips bound together in a few thin sections. Seemsnatural from my experience as an amateur (but daily) cook that cooking time would be very different. Flaming is harder to control but those who reportconsistent success seem to use methods that are able to heat all thepowerfibers, not just the very surface. As in cooking food, a recipe for cooking pounds of something involves much more time and energy than for thesamething in very tiny (several ounce) quantities. This reminds me of cooking asparagus. (Most things remind me of food.) Ifyou have four pots of boiling water of 2, 4, 6 and 8 quarts, and you haveasparagus ranging from the thinnest to the thickest edible stalks, and youput varying numbers of stalks into these pots, you have a lot of possiblecombinations of cooking time for the same result. But if you know how crisp or tender you want them to end up, you can figure out a fairly regularprocedure for any given combination. If you're cooking for a family of 6 and have three pounds of thick stalks, it will be way different from cooking afew thin strips for just you and your skinny girlfriend to eat with yoursushi. But of course, for some reason, some asparagus just takes a littlelonger to get tender than other stalks of the same size, all else beingequal. That will always be true of a vegetable like bamboo, too. So there seems to be good evidence that our recipes should produce at least a slight darkening, with the darkest end of the acceptable range lessclearly defined. There are lots of ways to get there, but that's the nature of being a grass chef. These variations in no way indicate that the rawgrass is the same as the cooked, but are typical of all cooking. I hope all you housewife rodmakers out there will back me up. IMHO. Barry from oandc@email.msn.com Thu Oct 11 11:17:35 2001 f9BGHY424017 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:17:34 - Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:16:54 -0700 Subject: Seasoning cane FILETIME=[24886D60:01C15270] All,Along the same line as heat-treating and moisture, I would be interested =in opinions on the merits of aged cane as opposed to unseasoned. I think =everyone agrees that the hardness of the strips relates directly to the =rods action. We know that over a good number of years wood can become a =good deal harder. Could this likewise apply to cane fibers. I believe I =recall someone recently stating that an aged culm he used displayed =superior properties. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 All,Along the same line as heat-treating = I would be interested in opinions on the merits of aged cane as opposed = unseasoned. I think everyone agrees that the hardness of the strips = fibers. I believe I recall someone recently stating that an aged culm he = displayed superior properties. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = Virus Database: 150 - Release Date:9/25/01 from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Oct 11 11:35:38 2001 f9BGZa425765 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:35:37 - JAA22533 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:35:38 - Subject: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage The discussion on the changes whether they are chemical or physical may =need a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending, splitting, planning, breaking, =sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to initiate a change for instance such =as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical changes that are utilized in =rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat changes the lignin from a =solid to a liquid, cane cools, and back into a solid(plastinization) due =result in physical changes such as stiffness, rigidity and a increase in =memory. Once again for the archives: Chemically bound H20 within the cell =structure must be removed by heat which results in a permanent change to=the cell because of degradation. Now the free H2O is inbetween the cells and is not bound. Drying will =drive off this moisture but moisture will reenter the cane and occupy =this space until it reaches equilibrium with its environment. For this =reason a water resistant finish is applied to slow down the reabsorption =of H2O that is not chemical bound to the cells. Now a new question when does your cane reach equilibrium in your shop? =And should we care? Upon heat treating cane it shrinks agreed? Letting =it set out in the shop the cane will increase in size due to the =reabsorption of some moisture. It will continue to do so until it =reaches equilibrium with the surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for the cane in our shop to come to =equilibrium. And during this 2 week period the cane has increased in =size .003-.004. Lets pretend this is a unknown to us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension and on day 15 we plane another 6 =strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips had not reached equilibrium =and may be become a larger dimension then the last 6 strips that were =planned. Maybe this can account for some of the reasons there are dimensional =differences in tips or strips in finished rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips to size quickly after heat treating =and get them glued and finished before the cane can reach equilibrium. =Or maybe we should wait and let the cane reach equilibrium before =planning is started? Any thoughts or experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started thinking about this, so lets blame him = are chemical or physical may need a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending, = planning, breaking, sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to = change for instance such as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical changes = are utilized in rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat changes = due result in physical changes such as stiffness, rigidity and a = memory. Once again for the archives: Chemically= within the cell structure must be removed by heat which results in a = change to the cell because of degradation. the = is not bound. Drying will drive off this moisture but moisture will = cells. Now a new question when does yourcane = shrinks agreed? Letting it set out in the shop the cane will increase in = due to the reabsorption of some moisture. It will continue to do so = reaches equilibrium with the surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for the = increased in size .003-.004. Lets pretend this is a unknown to =us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension= 15 we plane another 6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips had not = that were planned. Maybe this can account for some of the= rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips to = quickly after heat treating and get them glued and finished before the = reach equilibrium. Or maybe we should wait and let the cane reach = before planning is started? Any thoughts or =experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started = this, so lets blame him for my verbose post!LOL from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Oct 11 11:39:45 2001 f9BGdj426227 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:39:45 -0500 f9BGdZP20455; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:39:35 -0500 Rodmakers discussion group Subject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line I never did get Tony's message about this connector.Lost several leaders and bass bugs when they did just what you said they did.Had them break after using them several times.Still have some in a "junk" box.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Adam Vigil wrote: Tony,Are you talking about the football looking like plastic connectors? If so Idid a little experiment with them last season. They worked great. I pulledon them really hard and they would not break. Then one day "POP" off itcame. The plastic just broke out of the blue. To bad I really did like thembut they do break on big fish... because it wouldnt be funny if they brokeon small ones. Adam Vigil----- Original Message -----From: Tony Young Cc: Rodmakers discussion group Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 11:36 PMSubject: Re: Agate stripper guides and plastic line I'll give this a go, I normally use the inchworm over the line with wiping(I've become VERY paranoid about loosing lines when I had one head forAfrica when the nail knot stripped the line to the core). Always worthtrying a new method.Anybody out there using those plastic cucumber shaped things you usetoconnect the leader to the line with using a knot the get constricted inside the device?They _look_ good and I'm using them now and haven't had problems buthaven't had anything of any size to try them out yet. Tony from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Oct 11 12:18:58 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9BHIw400720 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:18:58 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:18:57 -0500 Subject: RE: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. This whole line of discussion, which I enjoy (especially when I try tochange Terry's mind knowing it won't work but he'll come up with aninteresting response), reminds me of the situation in US health care. Thereare a lot of unanswered questions that could make a big difference topatients, but the ones that tend to get studied are the ones the treatmentof which would probably involve something someone could sell (usually adrug, sometimes a device). Sometimes the gov't funds studies of thefinancially unpromising questions, but many remain unstudied. We really havea lot of researchable questions about bamboo here, but it would take a lotof time and some money to study them. If only someone stood to make a lotofmoney selling bamboo ovens we could ask them to fund it. Terry, have youever thought of putting out a line of 72" long microwave bamboo ovens withavailable optional flaming attachments? Much simpler than a final millingmachine. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage The discussion on the changes whether they are chemical or physical mayneed a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending, splitting, planning, breaking, sandingand so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to initiate a change for instance such asheat or ammonia would be 2 chemical changes that are utilized in rodmaking.Chemical changes such as when heat changes the lignin from a solid to aliquid, cane cools, and back into a solid(plastinization) due result inphysical changes such as stiffness, rigidity and a increase in memory. Once again for the archives: Chemically bound H20 within the cell structuremust be removed by heat which results in a permanent change to the cellbecause of degradation. Now the free H2O is inbetween the cells and is not bound. Drying will driveoff this moisture but moisture will reenter the cane and occupy this spaceuntil it reaches equilibrium with its environment. For this reason a waterresistant finish is applied to slow down the reabsorption of H2O that is notchemical bound to the cells. Now a new question when does your cane reach equilibrium in your shop? Andshould we care? Upon heat treating cane it shrinks agreed? Letting it setout in the shop the cane will increase in size due to the reabsorption ofsome moisture. It will continue to do so until it reaches equilibrium withthe surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for the cane in our shop to come toequilibrium. And during this 2 week period the cane has increased in size.003-.004. Lets pretend this is a unknown to us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension and on day 15 we plane another 6strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips had not reached equilibrium andmay be become a larger dimension then the last 6 strips that were planned. Maybe this can account for some of the reasons there are dimensionaldifferences in tips or strips in finished rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips to size quickly after heat treating andget them glued and finished before the cane can reach equilibrium. Or maybewe should wait and let the cane reach equilibrium before planning isstarted? Any thoughts or experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started thinking about this, so lets blame him formy verbose post!LOL This whole line of discussion, which I enjoy (especially when I try to change Terry's mind knowing it won't work but he'll come up with an interesting are a lot of unanswered questions that could make a big difference to patients,but the ones that tend to get studied are the ones the treatment of which would sometimes a device). Sometimes the gov't funds studies of the financially unpromising questions, but many remain unstudied. We really have a lot of researchable questions about bamboo here, but it would take a lot of time and somemoney to study them. If only someone stood to make a lot of money selling bambooovens we could ask them to fund it. Terry, have you ever thought of putting out a lineof 72" long microwave bamboo ovens with available optional flamingattachments? Much simpler than a final milling machine. Barry -----Original Message-----From: Adam Vigil 2001 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage whether they are chemical or physical may need a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending, splitting, planning, breaking, sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to initiatea change for instance such as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical changesthat are utilized in rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat changes the solid(plastinization) due result in physical changes such as stiffness, rigidity and a increase in memory. Once again for the archives: Chemicallybound H20 within the cell structure must be removed by heat which results in apermanent change to the cell because of degradation. cells and is not bound. Drying will drive off this moisture but moisture will reenter the cane and occupy this space until it reaches equilibrium with its slow down the reabsorption of H2O that is not chemical bound to the cells. Now a new question when does your canereach cane it shrinks agreed? Letting it set out in the shop the cane will increase in size due to the reabsorption of some moisture. It will continue to do so until it reaches equilibrium with the surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for the canein cane has increased in size .003-.004. Lets pretend this is a unknown to us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension andon day 15 we plane another 6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips hadnot last 6 strips that were planned. Maybe this can account for some of thereasons there are dimensional differences in tips or strips in finished rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips to size quickly after heat treating and get them glued and finished before the cane can reach equilibrium. Or maybe we should wait and let the cane reach equilibrium before planning is started? Any thoughts or experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started thinkingabout this, so lets blame him for my verbose post!LOL from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 11 12:26:52 2001 f9BHQp401986 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:26:52 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage Adam,I don't give mine a chance to reach equilibrium after they're rough =milled. I bind them, heat treat them then immediately put them in a =tube with dessicant in it. I take them out, plane them to dimension, =put them back in the tube until it's time glue them up. The URAC does a =pretty good job of sealing them until it's cured. I sand them, put them =in the tube... fit the ferrules, put them in the tube... THEN I put the =first coat of finish on them. At that point, while I realize varnish or =poly won't completely stop moisture exchange, I feel confident that the =finish will slow the moisture from re-entering the cane and don't worry = Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Subject: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage The discussion on the changes whether they are chemical or physical =may need a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending, splitting, planning, breaking, =sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to initiate a change for instance =such as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical changes that are utilized in =rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat changes the lignin from a =solid to a liquid, cane cools, and back into a solid(plastinization) due =result in physical changes such as stiffness, rigidity and a increase in =memory. Once again for the archives: Chemically bound H20 within the cell =structure must be removed by heat which results in a permanent change to=the cell because of degradation. Now the free H2O is inbetween the cells and is not bound. Drying will =drive off this moisture but moisture will reenter the cane and occupy =this space until it reaches equilibrium with its environment. For this =reason a water resistant finish is applied to slow down the reabsorption =of H2O that is not chemical bound to the cells. Now a new question when does your cane reach equilibrium in your shop? =And should we care? Upon heat treating cane it shrinks agreed? Letting =it set out in the shop the cane will increase in size due to the =reabsorption of some moisture. It will continue to do so until it =reaches equilibrium with the surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for the cane in our shop to come to =equilibrium. And during this 2 week period the cane has increased in =size .003-.004. Lets pretend this is a unknown to us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension and on day 15 we plane another =6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips had not reached equilibrium =and may be become a larger dimension then the last 6 strips that were =planned. Maybe this can account for some of the reasons there are dimensional =differences in tips or strips in finished rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips to size quickly after heat =treating and get them glued and finished before the cane can reach =equilibrium. Or maybe we should wait and let the cane reach equilibrium =before planning is started? Any thoughts or experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started thinking about this, so lets blame =him for my verbose post!LOL Adam, plane them to dimension, put them back in the tube until it's time glue = while I realize varnish or poly won't completely stop moisture exchange, = confident that the finish will slow the moisture from re-entering the = Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Vigil Sent: Thursday, October 11, = AMSubject: Changes chemical and = and shrinkage are chemical or physical may need a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending, = planning, breaking, sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to = change for instance such as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical = are utilized in rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat changes = solid(plastinization) due result in physical changes such as = rigidity and a increase in memory. Once again for the archives: = within the cell structure must be removed by heat which results in a = change to the cell because of degradation. is not bound. Drying will drive off this moisture but moisture will = cells. Now a new question when does your = shrinks agreed? Letting it set out in the shop the cane will increase = due to the reabsorption of some moisture. It will continue to do so = reaches equilibrium with the surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for = us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to = day 15 we plane another 6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips = strips that were planned. Maybe this can account for some of = rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips = quickly after heat treating and get them glued and finished before the = equilibrium before planning is started? Any thoughts or =experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started = this, so lets blame him for my verbose post!LOL from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Thu Oct 11 13:02:28 2001 f9BI2Q404973 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:02:27 - Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:02:28 +0200 Subject: Re: Seasoning cane Back in the sixties my cane-mentor Hans together with a bunch of =like- mindedfellows bought an unspecified no. of bales of cane from a company, whomany years before had imported them from China. I am lucky to have beenpermitted to buy a couple of these bales and so I have a stock of = aquired from another source. This year I had the opportunity to try planing some bamboo, fairly =recentlyharvested. My experience is that cane improves with age. The very old bamboois VERY hard compared to the fresh bamboo. The "middle aged" bamboois in-between. I do not think that any kind of heattreating or impregnating could make =the freshcane as hard and steely as the very old cane I have. I have been promised another couple of bales of the very old cane, and regards, carsten Subject: Seasoning cane All,Along the same line as heat-treating and moisture, I would be interested in opinions on the merits of aged cane as opposed to =unseasoned. I think everyone agrees that the hardness of the strips =relates directly to the rods action. We know that over a good number of =years wood can become a good deal harder. Could this likewise apply to =cane fibers. I believe I recall someone recently stating that an aged =culm he used displayed superior properties. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 Back in the sixties my cane-mentorHans = with a bunch of like-mindedfellows bought an unspecified no. of = from a company, whomany years before had imported them= am lucky to have beenpermitted to buy a couple of these = have a stock of cane,probably some 50 years old. Furthermore I havea = is some 20 years old, aquired from another =source. This year I had the opportunity to try = bamboo, fairly recentlyharvested. My experience is that cane improves = very old bamboois VERY hard compared to the fresh = "middle aged" bamboois in-between. I do not think that any kind of = impregnating could make the freshcane as hard and steely as the very old= have. I have been promised another couple of= very old cane, andNO, I am not going to depart with one = regards, carsten ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, = PMSubject: Seasoning cane All,Along the same line as heat-treating = moisture, I would be interested in opinions on the merits of aged cane = opposed to unseasoned. I think everyone agrees that the hardness of = cane fibers. I believe I recall someone recently stating that an aged = used displayed superior properties. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = 9/25/01 from bamboorods@saber.net Thu Oct 11 13:07:16 2001 f9BI7F405389 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:07:15 - for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:07:13 - Subject: dessicant Which leads us to the question: at what point does the bag of dessicant =in the tube release its moisture to the dryer bamboo? Which leads us to the question: at= bamboo? from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Thu Oct 11 13:09:20 2001 f9BI9G405674 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:09:17 - Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:09:19 +0200 Subject: Re: dessicant It does not provided You dry it in Your microwave oven from time to =time. regards, carsten Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 8:06 PMSubject: dessicant Which leads us to the question: at what point does the bag of =dessicant in the tube release its moisture to the dryer bamboo? It does not provided You dry it in Your = oven from time to time. regards, carsten ----- Original Message ----- Raine Sent: Thursday, October 11, = PMSubject: dessicant Which leads us to the question: at= does the bag of dessicant in the tube release its moisture to the = bamboo? from anglport@con2.com Thu Oct 11 13:22:49 2001 f9BIMm406805 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:22:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good M-D,I think, if I remember my HS chemistry, that water removal is a physicalchange, no different from pouring it out of a vase or squeezing it out of asponge. The other outcomes of heating may be chemical in nature, but notthat one, I think.It may be more trouble than doing that, but it is perfectly analogous. Art ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Peter, The removal of water is a chemical change, one that can, given the rightconditions precedent, prevent other chemical/physical changes future, andyou are heat treating if you are flaming. Merely subjecting anything toheat, per se, will not result in irreversible changes, but given enough time and temp will reduce bamboo/wood to charcoal, which is an irreversiblechange. M-D From: "Peter McKean" Hello again, Tony I really don't know whether Martin has got it technically right, but hestates his case so elegantly that I am not about to dispute it; BUT, itdoesn't seem to me that it is necessary to assume chemical changestakeplace in any of his examples save "caramelisation" and "carbonisation" - all the other things are probably physical changes. BIG SNIP I would be a more willing convert to the doctrine of heat treating if only I could ever find any great degree of consensus about the parameters of the process. No three authors agree, and the discrepancies are quiteconsiderable! Peter from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Oct 11 13:41:18 2001 f9BIfH408353 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:41:17 - NAA20544 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good 3 random thoughts on all this: One reason why a damp rod is more limp, is just that its heavier. We have all seen culms that had some mold growing on the inside.One effect of heat treating MAY be to kill the mold spores andother little buggers which COULD, if the finished rod reachedcertain conditions of temperature and humidity, start to grow again and gradually turn the rod into CO2 or whatever they do.That kind of damage would be permanent, even after the rod dried out again. I've forgot the 3rd thought already. Its hell getting old.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from fiveside@net-gate.com Thu Oct 11 14:30:11 2001 f9BJU8412589 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:30:08 - Subject: Heavy Traffic To the ListTrying to cope with the traffic lately suggests that the fishing =season must be winding down. But in both hemispheres?? Bill To the List Bill from jojo@ipa.net Thu Oct 11 14:30:13 2001 f9BJUC412596 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:30:12 -0500 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:30:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Art, What I wrote was predicated upon those certain conditions precedent, andyes, merely removing moisture itself is a physical change, but the removalof intercellular moisture alters an ability for certain chemical changes tooccur, or recur, thus the shrinkage seen in bamboo is a physicallymeasurable quantity, but along with that shrinkage goes chemical changesthat are irreversible, at least as it pertains to a bamboo rod. Freezedrying is an example of an irreversible process, one that even thoughmoisture may be introduced again, will never produce the same results asbefore the drying. Let's say we have hydrogen peroxide, H2O2, now if weremove water, H20, from the peroxide have we not both physically andchemically changed the composition? Merely adding back water to theremaining molecules of oxygen will not produce hydrogen peroxide again. Todo so would require a specific set of conditions. M-D M-D,I think, if I remember my HS chemistry, that water removal is a physical change, no different from pouring it out of a vase or squeezing it out of a sponge. The other outcomes of heating may be chemical in nature, but notthat one, I think.It may be more trouble than doing that, but it is perfectly analogous. Art From: "Jojo DeLancier" Peter, The removal of water is a chemical change, one that can, given the rightconditions precedent, prevent other chemical/physical changes future, and you are heat treating if you are flaming. Merely subjecting anything toheat, per se, will not result in irreversible changes, but given enough time and temp will reduce bamboo/wood to charcoal, which is an irreversiblechange. M-D From: "Peter McKean" Hello again, Tony I really don't know whether Martin has got it technically right, but he states his case so elegantly that I am not about to dispute it; BUT, it doesn't seem to me that it is necessary to assume chemical changes take place in any of his examples save "caramelisation" and "carbonisation" - all the other things are probably physical changes. BIG SNIP I would be a more willing convert to the doctrine of heat treating if only I could ever find any great degree of consensus about the parametersof the process. No three authors agree, and the discrepancies are quiteconsiderable! Peter from jmpio@nhbm.com Thu Oct 11 14:42:41 2001 f9BJgf413841 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:42:41 -0500 id ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:46:17 -0600 Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good You guys are starting to sound like 13 year olds talking about sex. Beforeyou argue about whether something is physical or chemical, shouldn't wefirst know how the folks who work in those fields define the two terms?Shouldn't we note that chemistry is often described as one of the "physicalsciences?" Shouldn't we also note that the last 50 years of research hasdemonstrated that the divisions between the sciences are more semanticthanempirical? Perhaps we could also note that the methods and effects ofremoving or inserting certain elements from molecules is a major fieldwithin chemistry (Such as M-D's example of removing the water fromperoxide), but so is the process of mixing and/or removing various moleculesto create useful compounds without introducing what M-D would call a"chemical" change. Whether it's chemistry or physics (if that distinctionmatters) is irrelevant, especially in a conversation among a bunch of canerod makers who are (for the most part) neither chemists nor physicists. Possibly an important question: M-D, do we in fact know that intercellular(or did you mean intracellular) moisture is removed that it cannot reenter?----- Original Message----- Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Art, What I wrote was predicated upon those certain conditions precedent, andyes, merely removing moisture itself is a physical change, but the removalof intercellular moisture alters an ability for certain chemical changes tooccur, or recur, thus the shrinkage seen in bamboo is a physicallymeasurable quantity, but along with that shrinkage goes chemical changesthat are irreversible, at least as it pertains to a bamboo rod. Freezedrying is an example of an irreversible process, one that even thoughmoisture may be introduced again, will never produce the same results asbefore the drying. Let's say we have hydrogen peroxide, H2O2, now if weremove water, H20, from the peroxide have we not both physically andchemically changed the composition? Merely adding back water to theremaining molecules of oxygen will not produce hydrogen peroxide again. Todo so would require a specific set of conditions. M-D M-D,I think, if I remember my HS chemistry, that water removal is a physical change, no different from pouring it out of a vase or squeezing it out of a sponge. The other outcomes of heating may be chemical in nature, but notthat one, I think.It may be more trouble than doing that, but it is perfectly analogous. Art From: "Jojo DeLancier" Peter, The removal of water is a chemical change, one that can, given the rightconditions precedent, prevent other chemical/physical changes future, and you are heat treating if you are flaming. Merely subjecting anything toheat, per se, will not result in irreversible changes, but given enough time and temp will reduce bamboo/wood to charcoal, which is an irreversiblechange. M-D From: "Peter McKean" Hello again, Tony I really don't know whether Martin has got it technically right, but he states his case so elegantly that I am not about to dispute it; BUT, it doesn't seem to me that it is necessary to assume chemical changes take place in any of his examples save "caramelisation" and "carbonisation" - all the other things are probably physical changes. BIG SNIP I would be a more willing convert to the doctrine of heat treating if only I could ever find any great degree of consensus about the parametersof the process. No three authors agree, and the discrepancies are quiteconsiderable! Peter from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 11 14:42:58 2001 f9BJgw413906 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:42:58 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: dessicant When it turns Blue... or Red, depending on the brand than it is full of =moisture and won't hold anymore. Unless heated, it will NOT release =it's moisture. This stuff is so cheap that there's no excuse for not =changing the dessicant out every couple of rods. For a very small =amount of money, you can insure that it never has a chance to reach it's =saturation point. Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:06 PMSubject: dessicant Which leads us to the question: at what point does the bag of =dessicant in the tube release its moisture to the dryer bamboo? When it turns Blue... or Red, depending on the brand = amount of money, you can insure that it never has a chance to reach it's = saturation point. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Raine Sent: Thursday, October 11, = PMSubject: dessicant Which leads us to the question: at= does the bag of dessicant in the tube release its moisture to the = bamboo? from oandc@email.msn.com Thu Oct 11 14:47:35 2001 f9BJlY414571 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:47:34 - Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:46:44 -0700 Subject: Fw: Seasoning cane FILETIME=[75477C10:01C1528D] Charsten and all,Your experiences with aged cane corresponds with what I understand =occurs with aged wood. One is wood and one is a grass but they seem to =share more than a somewhat similar cell structure. The immediate =question that comes to my mind is what is occurring over the years to =induce this hardening. One possible partial explanation might be the =yearly changes in temperature from hot to cold to hot over many years. =I'm curious if anyone has experimented with a regime of heat treating =and cold treating to induce a tighter cellular structure. This has =proven effective in other materials at least suggesting that cell =structure can be strengthened by heat and cold. Flame away. Indecently, I don't blame you for not opening the door to sharing your =aged cane. By the end of the day you wouldn't have any left. ;^))Wayne Subject: Re: Seasoning cane Back in the sixties my cane-mentor Hans together with a bunch of =like- mindedfellows bought an unspecified no. of bales of cane from a company, whomany years before had imported them from China. I am lucky to have beenpermitted to buy a couple of these bales and so I have a stock of = aquired from another source. This year I had the opportunity to try planing some bamboo, fairly =recentlyharvested. My experience is that cane improves with age. The very old bamboois VERY hard compared to the fresh bamboo. The "middle aged" bamboois in-between. I do not think that any kind of heattreating or impregnating could make =the freshcane as hard and steely as the very old cane I have. I have been promised another couple of bales of the very old cane, and regards, carsten Subject: Seasoning cane All,Along the same line as heat-treating and moisture, I would be =interested in opinions on the merits of aged cane as opposed to =unseasoned. I think everyone agrees that the hardness of the strips =relates directly to the rods action. We know that over a good number of =years wood can become a good deal harder. Could this likewise apply to =cane fibers. I believe I recall someone recently stating that an aged =culm he used displayed superior properties. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 Charsten and all,Your experiences with aged cane = what I understand occurs with aged wood. One is wood and one is a grass = seem to share more than a somewhat similar cell structure. The immediate = question that comes to my mind is what is occurring over the years to = this hardening. One possible partial explanation might be the yearly = temperature from hot to cold to hot over many years. I'm curious if = experimented with a regime of heat treating and cold treating to induce = tighter cellular structure. This has proven effective in other materials = least suggesting that cell structure can be strengthened by heat and = away. Indecently, I don't blame you for not = door to sharing your aged cane. By the end of the day you wouldn't have = left. ;^))Wayne From: J=F8rgensen Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 11:10 AMSubject: Re: Seasoning cane Back in the sixties my cane-mentorHans = with a bunch of like-mindedfellows bought an unspecified no. of = from a company, whomany years before had imported them= am lucky to have beenpermitted to buy a couple of these = have a stock of cane,probably some 50 years old. Furthermore I havea = is some 20 years old, aquired from another =source. This year I had the opportunity to try = bamboo, fairly recentlyharvested. My experience is that cane improves = very old bamboois VERY hard compared to the fresh = "middle aged" bamboois in-between. I do not think that any kind of = impregnating could make the freshcane as hard and steely as the very old= have. I have been promised another couple of= very old cane, andNO, I am not going to depart with one = regards, carsten ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, = PMSubject: Seasoning cane All,Along the same line as heat-treating = moisture, I would be interested in opinions on the merits of aged cane = opposed to unseasoned. I think everyone agrees that the hardness of = cane fibers. I believe I recall someone recently stating that an aged = used displayed superior properties. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = 9/25/01 from oandc@email.msn.com Thu Oct 11 15:08:51 2001 f9BK8o415933 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:08:50 - Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:08:08 -0700 Subject: Fw: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage FILETIME=[727B0E40:01C15290] Interesting concept Barry.I don't know about the microwave part but and interesting heat treating =oven might be constructed using propane for both heat and flaming. Sort =of on the lines of a gas broiler. An overhead inline set of propane =nozzles with the rod sections mounted below in one or more chucks turned = thermostat and thermal glass door to monitor temp and color. Sounds like =another marketable rodbuilding gadget to me. ;^)Wayne Subject: RE: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage This whole line of discussion, which I enjoy (especially when I try to =change Terry's mind knowing it won't work but he'll come up with an =interesting response), reminds me of the situation in US health care. =There are a lot of unanswered questions that could make a big difference =to patients, but the ones that tend to get studied are the ones the =treatment of which would probably involve something someone could sell =(usually a drug, sometimes a device). Sometimes the gov't funds studies =of the financially unpromising questions, but many remain unstudied. We =really have a lot of researchable questions about bamboo here, but it =would take a lot of time and some money to study them. If only someone =stood to make a lot of money selling bamboo ovens we could ask them to =fund it. Terry, have you ever thought of putting out a line of 72" long =microwave bamboo ovens with available optional flaming attachments? Much=simpler than a final milling machine. Barry-----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 11:38 AM Subject: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage The discussion on the changes whether they are chemical or physical =may need a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending, splitting, planning, breaking, =sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to initiate a change for instance =such as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical changes that are utilized in =rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat changes the lignin from a =solid to a liquid, cane cools, and back into a solid(plastinization) due =result in physical changes such as stiffness, rigidity and a increase in =memory. Once again for the archives: Chemically bound H20 within the cell =structure must be removed by heat which results in a permanent change to=the cell because of degradation. Now the free H2O is inbetween the cells and is not bound. Drying will =drive off this moisture but moisture will reenter the cane and occupy =this space until it reaches equilibrium with its environment. For this =reason a water resistant finish is applied to slow down the reabsorption =of H2O that is not chemical bound to the cells. Now a new question when does your cane reach equilibrium in your shop? =And should we care? Upon heat treating cane it shrinks agreed? Letting =it set out in the shop the cane will increase in size due to the =reabsorption of some moisture. It will continue to do so until it =reaches equilibrium with the surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for the cane in our shop to come to =equilibrium. And during this 2 week period the cane has increased in =size .003-.004. Lets pretend this is a unknown to us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension and on day 15 we plane another =6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips had not reached equilibrium =and may be become a larger dimension then the last 6 strips that were =planned. Maybe this can account for some of the reasons there are dimensional =differences in tips or strips in finished rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips to size quickly after heat =treating and get them glued and finished before the cane can reach =equilibrium. Or maybe we should wait and let the cane reach equilibrium =before planning is started? Any thoughts or experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started thinking about this, so lets blame =him for my verbose post!LOL ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 Interesting conceptBarry.I don't know about the microwave part= interesting heat treating oven might be constructed using propane for = and flaming. Sort of on the lines of a gas broiler. An overhead inline = with oven thermostat and thermal glass door to monitor temp and color. = like another marketable rodbuilding gadget to me. ;^)Wayne From: Barry W. Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:18 AM shrinkage whole line of discussion, which I enjoy (especially when I try to change = lot of unanswered questions that could make a big difference to = the ones that tend to get studied are the ones the treatment of which = device). Sometimes the gov't funds studies of the financially = questions, but many remain unstudied. We really have a lot of = questions about bamboo here, but it would take a lot of time and some = study them. If only someone stood to make a lot of money selling bamboo = could ask them to fund it. Terry, have you ever thought of putting out a = 72" long microwave bamboo ovens with available optional flaming = Much simpler than a final milling machine. Barry rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: = chemical and physical, and shrinkage are chemical or physical may need a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending, = planning, breaking, sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to = change for instance such as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical = are utilized in rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat changes = solid(plastinization) due result in physical changes such as = rigidity and a increase in memory. Once again for the archives: = within the cell structure must be removed by heat which results in a = change to the cell because of degradation. is not bound. Drying will drive off this moisture but moisture will = cells. Now a new question when does your = shrinks agreed? Letting it set out in the shop the cane will increase = due to the reabsorption of some moisture. It will continue to do so = reaches equilibrium with the surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for = us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to = day 15 we plane another 6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips = strips that were planned. Maybe this can account for some of = rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips = quickly after heat treating and get them glued and finished before the = equilibrium before planning is started? Any thoughts or =experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started = this, so lets blame him for my verbose post!LOL ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = 9/25/01 from jmpio@nhbm.com Thu Oct 11 15:12:52 2001 f9BKCp416296 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:12:51 - id ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:16:27 -0600 Subject: RE: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Wayne, that does sound like a marketable gadget. I'm aware of a very fewplaces/individuals from which one can acquire a working oven for heattreating sections. They are very expensive, in part, I think , because theyare all mica strip ovens with expensive hardware. A 5 foot long,propane-powered toaster oven (glass door and all) could probably be builtdam cheap. Now we just need to talk Proctor-Silex, Sunbeam or Ronco intomanufacturing it :))) -----Original Message----- Subject: Fw: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage Interesting concept Barry.I don't know about the microwave part but and interesting heat treating ovenmight be constructed using propane for both heat and flaming. Sort of onthelines of a gas broiler. An overhead inline set of propane nozzles with therod sections mounted below in one or more chucks turned by a small,possiblyvariable speed, motor. Complete with oven thermostat and thermal glassdoorto monitor temp and color. Sounds like another marketable rodbuildinggadgetto me. ;^)Wayne----- Original Message - ---- ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent:Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:18 AMSubject: RE: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage This whole line of discussion, which I enjoy (especially when I try tochange Terry's mind knowing it won't work but he'll come up with aninteresting response), reminds me of the situation in US health care. Thereare a lot of unanswered questions that could make a big difference topatients, but the ones that tend to get studied are the ones the treatmentof which would probably involve something someone could sell (usually adrug, sometimes a device). Sometimes the gov't funds studies of thefinancially unpromising questions, but many remain unstudied. We really havea lot of researchable questions about bamboo here, but it would take a lotof time and some money to study them. If only someone stood to make a lotofmoney selling bamboo ovens we could ask them to fund it. Terry, have youever thought of putting out a line of 72" long microwave bamboo ovens withavailable optional flaming attachments? Much simpler than a final millingmachine. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage The discussion on the changes whether they are chemical or physical mayneed a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending, splitting, planning, breaking, sandingand so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to initiate a change for instance such asheat or ammonia would be 2 chemical changes that are utilized in rodmaking.Chemical changes such as when heat changes the lignin from a solid to aliquid, cane cools, and back into a solid(plastinization) due result inphysical changes such as stiffness, rigidity and a increase in memory. Once again for the archives: Chemically bound H20 within the cell structuremust be removed by heat which results in a permanent change to the cellbecause of degradation. Now the free H2O is inbetween the cells and is not bound. Drying will driveoff this moisture but moisture will reenter the cane and occupy this spaceuntil it reaches equilibrium with its environment. For this reason a waterresistant finish is applied to slow down the reabsorption of H2O that is notchemical bound to the cells. Now a new question when does your cane reach equilibrium in your shop? Andshould we care? Upon heat treating cane it shrinks agreed? Letting it setout in the shop the cane will increase in size due to the reabsorption ofsome moisture. It will continue to do so until it reaches equilibrium withthe surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for the cane in our shop to come toequilibrium. And during this 2 week period the cane has increased in size.003-.004. Lets pretend this is a unknown to us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension and on day 15 we plane another 6strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips had not reached equilibrium andmay be become a larger dimension then the last 6 strips that were planned. Maybe this can account for some of the reasons there are dimensionaldifferences in tips or strips in finished rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips to size quickly after heat treating andget them glued and finished before the cane can reach equilibrium. Or maybewe should wait and let the cane reach equilibrium before planning isstarted? Any thoughts or experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started thinking about this, so lets blame him formy verbose post!LOL ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system ( http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 Wayne, places/individuals from which one can acquire a working oven for heattreating all powered Now we just need to talk Proctor-Silex, Sunbeam or Ronco into manufacturing it :))) -----Original Message-----From: Wayne Kifer 2001 2:10 Fw: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkageInteresting concept Barry.I don't know about the microwave part butand interesting heat treating oven might be constructed using propane for both heat and flaming. Sort of on the lines of a gas broiler. An overhead inline Complete with oven thermostat and thermal glass door to monitor temp and color.Sounds like another marketable rodbuilding gadget to me. ;^)Wayne----- Original Message ----- From: Kling, Barry W. Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:18 AMSubject: RE: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage This whole line of discussion, which I enjoy (especially when I try to change Terry's mind knowing it won't work but he'll come up with an interesting are a lot of unanswered questions that could make a big difference to patients, but the ones that tend to get studied are the ones the treatment of which sometimes a device). Sometimes the gov't funds studies of the financially unpromising questions, but many remain unstudied. We really have a lot of researchable questions about bamboo here, but it would take a lot of timeand some money to study them. If only someone stood to make a lot of moneyselling bamboo ovens we could ask them to fund it. Terry, have you ever thoughtof putting out a line of 72" long microwave bamboo ovens with availableoptional flaming attachments? Much simpler than a final milling machine. Barry -----Original Message-----From: Adam Vigil 2001 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage whether they are chemical or physical may need a littleclarification. Physical changes would be bending, splitting, planning, breaking, sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to initiatea change for instance such as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical changesthat are utilized in rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat changesthe solid(plastinization) due result in physical changes such as stiffness, rigidity and a increase in memory. Once again for the archives: Chemicallybound H20 within the cell structure must be removed by heat which results in a permanent change to the cell because of degradation. cells and is not bound. Drying will drive off this moisture but moisture will reenter the cane and occupy this space until it reaches equilibrium with its slow down the reabsorption of H2O that is not chemical bound to the cells. Now a new question when does your canereach cane it shrinks agreed? Letting it set out in the shop the cane will increase in size due to the reabsorption of some moisture. It will continue to do so until it reaches equilibrium with the surroundingenvironment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for the canein cane has increased in size .003-.004. Lets pretend this is a unknown to us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension andon day 15 we plane another 6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips hadnot last 6 strips that were planned. Maybe this can account for some of thereasons there are dimensional differences in tips or strips in finished rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips to size quickly after heat treating and get them glued and finished before thecane can reach equilibrium. Or maybe we should wait and let the cane reach equilibrium before planning is started? Any thoughts or experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started thinkingabout this, so lets blame him for my verbose post!LOL ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 from bhoy551@earthlink.net Thu Oct 11 15:23:45 2001 f9BKNi416991 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:23:44 - Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:23:29 -0400 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: dessicant FILETIME=[974EA0E0:01C15292] Hey, Bob, So, where do you get yours? All the sources I've seen are dead links. I finally got some US military spec bags from American Science and Surplus. Not silica gel, it's clay. Bill At 02:41 PM 10/11/2001 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote: When it turns Blue... or Red, depending on the brand than it is full of moisture and won't hold anymore. Unless heated, it will NOT release it's moisture. This stuff is so cheap that there's no excuse for not changing the dessicant out every couple of rods. For a very small amount of money, you can insure that it never has a chance to reach it's saturation point. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: Chris Raine Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:06 PMSubject: dessicant Which leads us to the question: at what point does the bag of dessicant in the tube release its moisture to the dryer bamboo? from paul@lifeware.com Thu Oct 11 15:24:06 2001 f9BKO5417090 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:24:05 - c0mailgw03.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.029) 2001 13:15:58 -0700 (NPlex 5.5.029) 2001 13:15:58 -0700 Subject: Changing a rods action? While we're on the subject of wet and dry, let me ask this question. I madea rod a couple of years ago that's not as crisp as it use to be. It's not anoodle by any means, but just doesn't have that "fresh out of the shop"feeling that it use to have. I'm attributing it to moisture re-entry. Thequestion I ask is, can this finished rod be restored to its originalcrispness through a little heat? Can it be returned to the oven at a lowerheat without damaging the glue or finish? And if so, will it help? What arethe times and temps? The rod is made with Epon and finished with Poly. Iknow I've read of other people doing this, but can find it the archives. Paul York Peter -- You wrote "I would be a more willing convert to the doctrine of heattreating if only I could ever find any great degree of consensus about theparameters of the process. No three authors agree, and the discrepancies are quite considerable!" I don't think the many methods of heating you read about are as diverse asit may seem, or have anything to do with the value of heat treating. Forexample, I roast eight or ten nodeless culm sections (NOT split strips, but the unsplit and half-round pieces of whole culms left after the nodes aresawed out) at 375F for longer than most people roast their bamboo, rotating them regularly. But that's a few pounds of bamboo in a relatively smallkitchen oven and I do it until it reaches a slightly darker color thanbefore cooking and has a characteristic smell (which others have reported). Turns out that's about the same result Millwards's work suggests in terms of color change. (We call that a Random Success where I work, which makes iteasier to consider our screwups Random Failures.) But most people areroasting very thin strips bound together in a few thin sections. Seemsnatural from my experience as an amateur (but daily) cook that cooking time would be very different. Flaming is harder to control but those who reportconsistent success seem to use methods that are able to heat all thepowerfibers, not just the very surface. As in cooking food, a recipe for cooking pounds of something involves much more time and energy than for thesamething in very tiny (several ounce) quantities. This reminds me of cooking asparagus. (Most things remind me of food.) Ifyou have four pots of boiling water of 2, 4, 6 and 8 quarts, and you haveasparagus ranging from the thinnest to the thickest edible stalks, and youput varying numbers of stalks into these pots, you have a lot of possiblecombinations of cooking time for the same result. But if you know how crisp or tender you want them to end up, you can figure out a fairly regularprocedure for any given combination. If you're cooking for a family of 6 and have three pounds of thick stalks, it will be way different from cooking afew thin strips for just you and your skinny girlfriend to eat with yoursushi. But of course, for some reason, some asparagus just takes a littlelonger to get tender than other stalks of the same size, all else beingequal. That will always be true of a vegetable like bamboo, too. So there seems to be good evidence that our recipes should produce at least a slight darkening, with the darkest end of the acceptable range lessclearly defined. There are lots of ways to get there, but that's the nature of being a grass chef. These variations in no way indicate that the rawgrass is the same as the cooked, but are typical of all cooking. I hope all you housewife rodmakers out there will back me up. IMHO. Barry from oandc@email.msn.com Thu Oct 11 15:25:26 2001 f9BKPP417441 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:25:25 - Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:24:42 -0700 Subject: Fw: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage FILETIME=[C2DB9D80:01C15292] I think I might go with that guy on the tube, Ron Popiel or something, =that sells the oven for roasting turkeys etc. He already has the basic = gas and be ready to go. Shall I suggest it to him or would you like the =honors? :))) Subject: RE: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage Wayne, that does sound like a marketable gadget. I'm aware of a very =few places/individuals from which one can acquire a working oven for =heat treating sections. They are very expensive, in part, I think , =because they are all mica strip ovens with expensive hardware. A 5 foot =long, propane-powered toaster oven (glass door and all) could probably =be built dam cheap. Now we just need to talk Proctor-Silex, Sunbeam or =Ronco into manufacturing it :)))----- Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:10 PM Subject: Fw: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage Interesting concept Barry.I don't know about the microwave part but and interesting heat =treating oven might be constructed using propane for both heat and =flaming. Sort of on the lines of a gas broiler. An overhead inline set =of propane nozzles with the rod sections mounted below in one or more =chucks turned by a small, possibly variable speed, motor. Complete with =oven thermostat and thermal glass door to monitor temp and color. Sounds=like another marketable rodbuilding gadget to me. ;^)Wayne Subject: RE: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage This whole line of discussion, which I enjoy (especially when I try to =change Terry's mind knowing it won't work but he'll come up with an =interesting response), reminds me of the situation in US health care. =There are a lot of unanswered questions that could make a big difference =to patients, but the ones that tend to get studied are the ones the =treatment of which would probably involve something someone could sell =(usually a drug, sometimes a device). Sometimes the gov't funds studies =of the financially unpromising questions, but many remain unstudied. We =really have a lot of researchable questions about bamboo here, but it =would take a lot of time and some money to study them. If only someone =stood to make a lot of money selling bamboo ovens we could ask them to =fund it. Terry, have you ever thought of putting out a line of 72" long =microwave bamboo ovens with available optional flaming attachments? Much=simpler than a final milling machine. Barry-----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 11:38 AM Subject: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage The discussion on the changes whether they are chemical or physical =may need a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending, splitting, planning, breaking, =sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to initiate a change for instance =such as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical changes that are utilized in =rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat changes the lignin from a =solid to a liquid, cane cools, and back into a solid(plastinization) due =result in physical changes such as stiffness, rigidity and a increase in =memory. Once again for the archives: Chemically bound H20 within the cell =structure must be removed by heat which results in a permanent change to=the cell because of degradation. Now the free H2O is inbetween the cells and is not bound. Drying =will drive off this moisture but moisture will reenter the cane and =occupy this space until it reaches equilibrium with its environment. = reabsorption of H2O that is not chemical bound to the cells. Now a new question when does your cane reach equilibrium in your =shop? And should we care? Upon heat treating cane it shrinks agreed? =Letting it set out in the shop the cane will increase in size due to the =reabsorption of some moisture. It will continue to do so until it =reaches equilibrium with the surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for the cane in our shop to come to =equilibrium. And during this 2 week period the cane has increased in =size .003-.004. Lets pretend this is a unknown to us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension and on day 15 we plane =another 6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips had not reached =equilibrium and may be become a larger dimension then the last 6 strips =that were planned. Maybe this can account for some of the reasons there are dimensional =differences in tips or strips in finished rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips to size quickly after heat =treating and get them glued and finished before the cane can reach =equilibrium. Or maybe we should wait and let the cane reach equilibrium =before planning is started? Any thoughts or experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started thinking about this, so lets blame =him for my verbose post!LOL ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 I think I might go with that guy on the = Popiel or something, that sells the oven for roasting turkeys etc. He = has the basic idea and could simply build a longer one and equip it for = or map gas and be ready to go. Shall I suggest it to him or would you = honors? :))) From:jmpio@nhbm.com = Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:16 PM shrinkage places/individuals from which one can acquire a working oven for heat = toaster oven (glass door and all) could probably be built dam = we just need to talk Proctor-Silex, Sunbeam or Ronco into manufacturing = :))) Fw: = chemical and physical, and shrinkageInteresting concept =Barry.I don't know about the microwave part= interesting heat treating oven might be constructed using propane for = heat and flaming. Sort of on the lines of a gas broiler. An overhead = with oven thermostat and thermal glass door to monitor temp and color. = like another marketable rodbuilding gadget to me. ;^)Wayne From:Kling, Barry W. Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:18 AM shrinkage whole line of discussion, which I enjoy (especially when I try to = Terry's mind knowing it won't work but he'll come up with an = a lot of unanswered questions that could make a big difference to = but the ones that tend to get studied are the ones the treatment of = sometimes a device). Sometimes the gov't funds studies of the = unpromising questions, but many remain unstudied. We really have a lot = researchable questions about bamboo here, but it would take a lot of = some money to study them. If only someone stood to make a lot of money= bamboo ovens we could ask them to fund it. Terry, have you ever = putting out a line of 72" long microwave bamboo ovens with available = machine. Barry = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: = chemical and physical, and shrinkage they are chemical or physical may need a little =clarification. Physical changes would be bending, = planning, breaking, sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to = change for instance such as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical = are utilized in rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat = solid(plastinization) due result in physical changes such as = rigidity and a increase in memory. Once again for the archives: = H20 within the cell structure must be removed by heat which results = permanent change to the cell because of degradation. and is not bound. Drying will drive off this moisture but moisture = reenter the cane and occupy this space until it reaches equilibrium = cells. Now a new question when does your = it shrinks agreed? Letting it set out in the shop the cane will = size due to the reabsorption of some moisture. It will continue to = until it reaches equilibrium with the surrounding =environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for = cane has increased in size .003-.004. Lets pretend this is a unknown = us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to = day 15 we plane another 6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips = 6 strips that were planned. Maybe this can account for some of = rods.Maybe it is better to get the = quickly after heat treating and get them glued and finished before = can reach equilibrium. Or maybe we should wait and let the cane = equilibrium before planning is started? Any thoughts or =experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started = this, so lets blame him for my verbose post!LOL ---Outgoing mail is = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = 9/25/01 from oandc@email.msn.com Thu Oct 11 15:39:12 2001 f9BKdA418552 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:39:11 - Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:39:16 -0700 Subject: Fw: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage FILETIME=[CBFE6990:01C15294] Yea, I can see it now. The "Bountiful Barbecue Broiler". He could =manufacture it for large picnic gatherings and family reunions with =spits for meats. We could then modify it with a chuck for our own use. =What a concept. Got to be a winner. Subject: RE: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage You go ahead, I can't wait to see the infomercial.-----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:27 PM Subject: Fw: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage I think I might go with that guy on the tube, Ron Popiel or something, =that sells the oven for roasting turkeys etc. He already has the basic = gas and be ready to go. Shall I suggest it to him or would you like the =honors? :))) Subject: RE: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage Wayne, that does sound like a marketable gadget. I'm aware of a very =few places/individuals from which one can acquire a working oven for =heat treating sections. They are very expensive, in part, I think , =because they are all mica strip ovens with expensive hardware. A 5 foot =long, propane-powered toaster oven (glass door and all) could probably =be built dam cheap. Now we just need to talk Proctor-Silex, Sunbeam or =Ronco into manufacturing it :)))----- Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:10 PM Subject: Fw: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage Interesting concept Barry.I don't know about the microwave part but and interesting heat =treating oven might be constructed using propane for both heat and =flaming. Sort of on the lines of a gas broiler. An overhead inline set =of propane nozzles with the rod sections mounted below in one or more =chucks turned by a small, possibly variable speed, motor. Complete with =oven thermostat and thermal glass door to monitor temp and color. Sounds=like another marketable rodbuilding gadget to me. ;^)Wayne Subject: RE: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage This whole line of discussion, which I enjoy (especially when I try =to change Terry's mind knowing it won't work but he'll come up with an =interesting response), reminds me of the situation in US health care. =There are a lot of unanswered questions that could make a big difference =to patients, but the ones that tend to get studied are the ones the =treatment of which would probably involve something someone could sell =(usually a drug, sometimes a device). Sometimes the gov't funds studies =of the financially unpromising questions, but many remain unstudied. We =really have a lot of researchable questions about bamboo here, but it =would take a lot of time and some money to study them. If only someone =stood to make a lot of money selling bamboo ovens we could ask them to =fund it. Terry, have you ever thought of putting out a line of 72" long =microwave bamboo ovens with available optional flaming attachments? Much=simpler than a final milling machine. Barry-----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 11:38 AM Subject: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage The discussion on the changes whether they are chemical or =physical may need a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending, splitting, planning, breaking, =sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction to initiate a change for instance =such as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical changes that are utilized in =rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat changes the lignin from a =solid to a liquid, cane cools, and back into a solid(plastinization) due =result in physical changes such as stiffness, rigidity and a increase in =memory. Once again for the archives: Chemically bound H20 within the cell =structure must be removed by heat which results in a permanent change to=the cell because of degradation. Now the free H2O is inbetween the cells and is not bound. Drying =will drive off this moisture but moisture will reenter the cane and =occupy this space until it reaches equilibrium with its environment. = reabsorption of H2O that is not chemical bound to the cells. Now a new question when does your cane reach equilibrium in your =shop? And should we care? Upon heat treating cane it shrinks agreed? =Letting it set out in the shop the cane will increase in size due to the =reabsorption of some moisture. It will continue to do so until it =reaches equilibrium with the surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for the cane in our shop to come =to equilibrium. And during this 2 week period the cane has increased in =size .003-.004. Lets pretend this is a unknown to us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension and on day 15 we plane =another 6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips had not reached =equilibrium and may be become a larger dimension then the last 6 strips =that were planned. Maybe this can account for some of the reasons there are =dimensional differences in tips or strips in finished rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips to size quickly after heat =treating and get them glued and finished before the cane can reach =equilibrium. Or maybe we should wait and let the cane reach equilibrium =before planning is started? Any thoughts or experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started thinking about this, so lets =blame him for my verbose post!LOL ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 Yea, I can see it now. The "Bountiful = Broiler". He could manufacture it for large picnic gatherings and family = reunions with spits for meats. We could then modify it with a chuck for = use. What a concept. Got to be a winner. From:jmpio@nhbm.com = Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:31 PM shrinkage Fw: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkageI think I might go with that guy on = Popiel or something, that sells the oven for roasting turkeys etc. He = has the basic idea and could simply build a longer one and equip it = propane or map gas and be ready to go. Shall I suggest it to him or = like the honors? :))) From:jmpio@nhbm.com Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:16 PM shrinkage Wayne, that does sound like a expensive, in part, I think , because they are all mica strip ovens = :))) = Fw: = chemical and physical, and shrinkageInteresting concept =Barry.I don't know about the microwave = interesting heat treating oven might be constructed using propane = heat and flaming. Sort of on the lines of a gas broiler. An overhead = set of propane nozzles with the rod sections mounted below = with oven thermostat and thermal glass door to monitor temp and = Sounds like another marketable rodbuilding gadget to me. =;^)Wayne From:=Kling, Barry W. = Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:18 AM shrinkage This whole line of discussion, which I enjoy (especially = to change Terry's mind knowing it won't work but he'll come up with = difference to patients, but the ones that tend to get studied are = sell (usually a drug, sometimes a device). Sometimes the gov't funds = of the financially unpromising questions, but many remain unstudied. = really have a lot of researchable questions about bamboo here, but = take a lot of time and some money to study them. If only someone = make a lot of money selling bamboo ovens we could ask them to fund = Terry, have you ever thought of putting out a line of 72" long = bamboo ovens with available optional flaming attachments? Much = a final milling machine. Barry Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage clarification. Physical changes would be = planning, breaking, sanding and so on.Chemical changes need a reaction = a change for instance such as heat or ammonia would be 2 chemical = that are utilized in rodmaking. Chemical changes such as when heat = solid(plastinization) due result in physical changes such as = rigidity and a increase in memory. Once again for the archives: = H20 within the cell structure must be removed by heat which = permanent change to the cell because of degradation. and is not bound. Drying will drive off this moisture but moisture = reenter the cane and occupy this space until it reaches = to slow down the reabsorption of H2O that is not chemical bound to = cells. Now a new question when does your = cane it shrinks agreed? Letting it set out in the shop the cane = increase in size due to the reabsorption of some moisture. It will = continue to do so until it reaches equilibrium with the = environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days = the cane has increased in size .003-.004. Lets pretend this is a = to us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to = on day 15 we plane another 6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 = then the last 6 strips that were planned. Maybe this can account for some = reasons there are dimensional differences in tips or strips in = rods.Maybe it is better to get the = quickly after heat treating and get them glued and finished before = cane can reach equilibrium. Or maybe we should wait and let the = equilibrium before planning is started? Any thoughts or =experience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started = about this, so lets blame him for my verbose post!LOL ---Outgoing mail is = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = =9/25/01= from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Oct 11 15:58:28 2001 f9BKwR421331 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:58:27 - f9BKjqX03289; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:45:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage Adam,I fully agree with this. That is one reason Iheat treat, final taper and glue all in the sameday. Hang the glued sections for 18-20 hours,scrape residual glue, heat set, final scrape andapply a sealer as soon as I can.I am still new to rodmaking, have only made justover 50 rods and blanks, I guess I have beenlucky not getting a soft rod. I also soak mystrips before beveling, somtimes for as much forfive days.I do dry them in the oven before heat treating,I don't know if this adds to heat treating ornot. I am satisfied with the way my rods turnout.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.comAdam Vigil wrote:Maybe it is better to get thestrips to size quickly after heat treating andget them glued and finished before the cane canreach equilibrium. Or maybe we should wait andlet the cane reach equilibrium before planningis started? Any thoughts or experience? AdamVigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started thinkingabout this, so lets blame him for my verbosepost!LOL from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Thu Oct 11 16:03:08 2001 f9BL37422505 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:03:07 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:53:10 -0500 Subject: RE: Bluing forms? Ok, one last lashing on the dead horse.... Can anyone tell me why it matters if the thickness of the chrome was even.010", so long as it is uniform? You are going to use your dial indicatorto set the spread on the bars, just like you would if they were unplated,eh? The spread is the spread, in my mind. The only thing I would worryabout is whether the thickness was drastically inconsistent. I would takemy indicator, and smoothly slide it down the entire length of my forms (nogap between bars), to be sure that my taper was smooth between stations.Then I would check each station, to be sure that the taper per inch was perspec. If it is, I'd call it good. That makes a point, I suppose. Before I would send my bars off to beplated, I'd make darn sure that my grooves were as perfect as I could getthem. Not just "good enough"... TAM -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Bluing forms? Hello all, The thickness will depend on the process thatis used to deposit the chrome. Some of the processesare electroless some are electro based. The stuff thatyou want "hard chromed" is deposited over a thin layerof copper, this stuff must be machined down to finish size after the plating process. You will need a surface grinder to machine this stuff down on a set of forms.All the hard chrome that I know of is electro plated. The other stuff is what the engineers call "flash chrome" which is just a layer approx. .0002" -.0004" thickness to the side. This stuff comes back looking nice and not needing any additional machining(it will show machining marks thru the chrome, because of the lack of depth and lack of secondary machining).The flash chrome is usually put on "cheap" parts to increasethe service life of the part or keep it from rusting in service. Black oxide finish is an option that could be done at any decentaircraft manufactoring based company. I am pretty sure they wouldbe glad to see anybody show up with any kind of work right now,the list of furloughed aircraft workers just keeps growing as the days go by...but on a upside, I can fish when its not raining out see you on the streamBrad from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Oct 11 16:49:55 2001 f9BLnr403964 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:49:54 - for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:49:51 -0400 Subject: Swelled butts /cedar strips Ok here's the big question.I'm looking into doing the cedar strips thing, to make swelledbutts.Now this must be the most guarded secret in bamboo making.I looked in the archives and there is very , very little on the subject.And what I have found on the subject, has proven to be incorrect.i.e.the suggested method will not work.The suggested method is to just form cedar strips in a 60=B0 form.This cannot work because the flats are parallel to each other when you =form a hex shape . So anyone care to share the secret. I think I know =what shape it needs to be, but I need more info on the jig to make the =strips. Can anyone send me pics off line of a rod they have done this =way? or maybe a pic of the jig. Any suggestions would be appreciated.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Ok here's the big =question.I'm looking into doing the cedar strips = make swelledbutts.Now this must be the most guarded = making.I looked in the archives and there is = very little on the subject. proven to be incorrect. work.The suggested method is to just form = This cannot work because the flats are= appreciated.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Thu Oct 11 16:56:15 2001 f9BLuF405600 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:56:15 - OAA17059; QAA10274; f9BLuAm20061; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:34:16 -0700 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Seasoning cane this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I suspect that like wood there are chemical changes going on such as = from short chain to long chain molecules, that is something that only =time does not heat. Luthiers found that out through trial and error =with wood, whether or not the same thing is going in cane takes someone =to test in a lab. -----Original Message----- Subject: Fw: Seasoning cane Charsten and all,Your experiences with aged cane corresponds with what I understand =occurs with aged wood. One is wood and one is a grass but they seem to =share more than a somewhat similar cell structure. The immediate =question that comes to my mind is what is occurring over the years to =induce this hardening. One possible partial explanation might be the =yearly changes in temperature from hot to cold to hot over many years. =I'm curious if anyone has experimented with a regime of heat treating =and cold treating to induce a tighter cellular structure. This has =proven effective in other materials at least suggesting that cell =structure can be strengthened by heat and cold. Flame away. Indecently, I don't blame you for not opening the door to sharing your =aged cane. By the end of the day you wouldn't have any left. ;^))Wayne Subject: Re: Seasoning cane Back in the sixties my cane-mentor Hans together with a bunch of =like- mindedfellows bought an unspecified no. of bales of cane from a company, whomany years before had imported them from China. I am lucky to have beenpermitted to buy a couple of these bales and so I have a stock of = some 50 years old. Furthermore I have a bale that is some 20 years old, = aquired from another source. This year I had the opportunity to try planing some bamboo, fairly =recentlyharvested. My experience is that cane improves with age. The very old bamboois VERY hard compared to the fresh bamboo. The "middle aged" bamboois in-between. I do not think that any kind of heattreating or impregnating could make =the freshcane as hard and steely as the very old cane I have. I have been promised another couple of bales of the very old cane, and regards, carsten Subject: Seasoning cane All,Along the same line as heat-treating and moisture, I would be =interested in opinions on the merits of aged cane as opposed to =unseasoned. I think everyone agrees that the hardness of the strips =relates directly to the rods action. We know that over a good number of =years wood can become a good deal harder. Could this likewise apply to =cane fibers. I believe I recall someone recently stating that an aged =culm he used displayed superior properties. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system ( http://www.grisoft.com =).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 short chain to long chain molecules, that is something that only time = heat. Luthiers found that out through trial and error with wood, = lab. Patrick W.Coffey =AOG Incident Repair Planning =Phone: 425-234-2901 = Fw: = caneCharsten and all,Your experiences with aged cane = what I understand occurs with aged wood. One is wood and one is a = they seem to share more than a somewhat similar cell structure. The = question that comes to my mind is what is occurring over the years to = this hardening. One possible partial explanation might be the yearly = in temperature from hot to cold to hot over many years. I'm curious = has experimented with a regime of heat treating and cold treating to = tighter cellular structure. This has proven effective in other = least suggesting that cell structure can be strengthened by heat and = Flame away. Indecently, I don't blame you for = door to sharing your aged cane. By the end of the day you wouldn't = left. ;^))Wayne From: J=F8rgensen Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 11:10 AMSubject: Re: Seasoning cane Back in the sixties my cane-mentor = with a bunch of like-mindedfellows bought an unspecified no. of = cane from a company, whomany years before had imported them= am lucky to have beenpermitted to buy a couple of these = have a stock of cane,probably some 50 years old. Furthermore I = is some 20 years old, aquired from another =source. This year I had the opportunity to = some bamboo, fairly recentlyharvested. My experience is that cane improves = very old bamboois VERY hard compared to the fresh = "middle aged" bamboois in-between. I do not think that any kind of = impregnating could make the freshcane as hard and steely as the very = have. I have been promised another couple = the very old cane, andNO, I am not going to depart with = culm. regards, carsten ----- Original Message ----- Kifer = Sent: Thursday, October 11, = PMSubject: Seasoning =cane All,Along the same line as = moisture, I would be interested in opinions on the merits of aged = opposed to unseasoned. I think everyone agrees that the hardness of = likewise apply to cane fibers. I believe I recall someone recently = that an aged culm he used displayed superior properties. Any = this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version:= 9/25/01 from jteft@frontiernet.net Thu Oct 11 17:15:59 2001 [66.133.130.238] (may be forged)) f9BMFw410087 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:15:58 - sender ) , Subject: Re: Seasoning cane Carsten, Sounds like some of those culms are about almost as old as me. It's good =to hear something seems to get better with age..:-)Jim T Subject: Re: Seasoning cane Back in the sixties my cane-mentor Hans together with a bunch of =like- mindedfellows bought an unspecified no. of bales of cane from a company, whomany years before had imported them from China. I am lucky to have =beenpermitted to buy a couple of these bales and so I have a stock of = some 50 years old. Furthermore I have a bale that is some 20 years = aquired from another source. This year I had the opportunity to try planing some bamboo, fairly =recentlyharvested. My experience is that cane improves with age. The very old bamboois VERY hard compared to the fresh bamboo. The "middle aged" bamboois in-between. I do not think that any kind of heattreating or impregnating could =make the freshcane as hard and steely as the very old cane I have. I have been promised another couple of bales of the very old cane, and regards, carsten Subject: Seasoning cane All,Along the same line as heat-treating and moisture, I would be =interested in opinions on the merits of aged cane as opposed to =unseasoned. I think everyone agrees that the hardness of the strips =relates directly to the rods action. We know that over a good number of =years wood can become a good deal harder. Could this likewise apply to =cane fibers. I believe I recall someone recently stating that an aged =culm he used displayed superior properties. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 Carsten, Sounds like some of those culms are about almost as= It's good to hear something seems to get better with =age..:-)Jim T ----- Original Message ----- Carsten J=F8rgensen = Sent: Thursday, October 11, = PMSubject: Re: Seasoning =cane Back in the sixties my cane-mentor = with a bunch of like-mindedfellows bought an unspecified no. of = cane from a company, whomany years before had imported them= am lucky to have beenpermitted to buy a couple of these = have a stock of cane,probably some 50 years old. Furthermore I have= is some 20 years old, aquired from another =source. This year I had the opportunity to = some bamboo, fairly recentlyharvested. My experience is that cane improves = very old bamboois VERY hard compared to the fresh = "middle aged" bamboois in-between. I do not think that any kind of = impregnating could make the freshcane as hard and steely as the very = have. I have been promised another couple = the very old cane, andNO, I am not going to depart with one = culm. regards, carsten ----- Original Message ----- Kifer Sent: Thursday, October 11, = PMSubject: Seasoning cane All,Along the same line as = moisture, I would be interested in opinions on the merits of aged = opposed to unseasoned. I think everyone agrees that the hardness of = likewise apply to cane fibers. I believe I recall someone recently = that an aged culm he used displayed superior properties. Any = this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = 9/25/01 from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Thu Oct 11 17:27:06 2001 f9BMR5412552 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:27:05 -0500 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:17:41 -0500 Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good I think the distinction between bound water and free water is important. Ananalogy. If you had a chemical solution (by definition, different from asuspension) of sugar in water, then boiled off the water phase, you wouldhave a liquid sugar left in the bottom of the pan (assuming you are abovethe melting point of the sugar). If you allowed the sugar to solidify (bycooling), it would be dense and dehydrated. Now if you re-introduce water,the water would only be able to re-enter by dissolving the solid mass ofsugar. This is possible, because water dissolves sugar. Let's say you have a different mixture, a plastic with (covalently) boundwater in the molecular structure. Now introduce heat to both melt theplastic and drive off the water molecules, so you are left with only theplastic molecules. Let this cool into a solid mass. Reintroduction ofwater to the system will not result in the plastic being dissolved by thewater. The plastic is not "soluble" in water. How did the water get boundto the plastic molecules in the first place? It was a chemical reactionwhich required some energy to initiate. Once the reaction has taken place,then it is stable until something breaks the bonds. In this case, boilingit broke the bonds. I think that is what is going on with heat treating(but can offer no proof).We agree that we drive off a great deal of moisture from the little tubes,which can readily be re-absorbed by capillary action (what most people referto as "wicking"). But we also drive off water that was bound to thelignins, which will never re-bond to the lignins. Rick Crenshaw has a greatresource locally available -- Rick, could you ask her if this is the case?Your posts last year have given the clearest picture so far for me.... TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good You guys are starting to sound like 13 year olds talking about sex. Beforeyou argue about whether something is physical or chemical, shouldn't wefirst know how the folks who work in those fields define the two terms?Shouldn't we note that chemistry is often described as one of the "physicalsciences?" Shouldn't we also note that the last 50 years of research hasdemonstrated that the divisions between the sciences are more semanticthanempirical? Perhaps we could also note that the methods and effects ofremoving or inserting certain elements from molecules is a major fieldwithin chemistry (Such as M-D's example of removing the water fromperoxide), but so is the process of mixing and/or removing various moleculesto create useful compounds without introducing what M-D would call a"chemical" change. Whether it's chemistry or physics (if that distinctionmatters) is irrelevant, especially in a conversation among a bunch of canerod makers who are (for the most part) neither chemists nor physicists. Possibly an important question: M-D, do we in fact know that intercellular(or did you mean intracellular) moisture is removed that it cannot reenter? -----Original Message----- from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 11 17:56:01 2001 f9BMu0415229 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:56:00 - Subject: Re: Changes chemical and physical, and shrinkage 41AA310ED1BB22D1D36A9762" --------------41AA310ED1BB22D1D36A9762 Adam,I think the term free and bound water only applies to wood. We have allseen the photomicrographs of wood structure that appear to be more holesthan wood and it is possible to see this with very low power optics upto a point. Cane on the other hand is different, it grows like a flowerstem straight up, by, I have read, as much 3 ft per day. Trees grow uponly at the top and out at the bottom . A branch on a tree 6 ft from theground will always be 6 ft from the ground no matter how high it grows.The archives are good source of information but is it reliable? I thinkthat is up to the individual to judge.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: The discussion on the changes whether they are chemical or physicalmay need a little clarification. Physical changes would be bending,splitting, planning, breaking, sanding and so on.Chemical changes needa reaction to initiate a change for instance such as heat or ammoniawould be 2 chemical changes that are utilized in rodmaking. Chemicalchanges such as when heat changes the lignin from a solid to a liquid,cane cools, and back into a solid(plastinization) due result inphysical changes such as stiffness, rigidity and a increase inmemory. Once again for the archives: Chemically bound H20 within thecell structure must be removed by heat which results in a permanentchange to the cell because of degradation. Now the free H2O isinbetween the cells and is not bound. Drying will drive off thismoisture but moisture will reenter the cane and occupy this spaceuntil it reaches equilibrium with its environment. For this reason awater resistant finish is applied to slow down the reabsorption of H2Othat is not chemical bound to the cells. Now a new question when doesyour cane reach equilibrium in your shop? And should we care? Uponheat treating cane it shrinks agreed? Letting it set out in the shopthe cane will increase in size due to the reabsorption of somemoisture. It will continue to do so until it reaches equilibrium withthe surrounding environment. Lets just say it takes 14 days for thecane in our shop to come to equilibrium. And during this 2 weekperiod the cane has increased in size .003-.004. Lets pretend this isa unknown to us.On day 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension and on day 15we plane another 6 strip for the same rod. The first 6 strips had notreached equilibrium and may be become a larger dimension then thelast 6 strips that were planned. Maybe this can account for some ofthe reasons there are dimensional differences in tips or strips infinished rods.Maybe it is better to get the strips to size quicklyafter heat treating and get them glued and finished before the canecan reach equilibrium. Or maybe we should wait and let the cane reachequilibrium before planning is started? Any thoughts orexperience? Adam Vigil P.S. Ron Granthom got me started thinking aboutthis, so lets blame him for my verbose post!LOL --------------41AA310ED1BB22D1D36A9762 Adam,I think the term free and bound water only applies to wood. We haveall seen the photomicrographs of wood structure that appear to be moreholes than wood and it is possible to see this with very low power opticsup to a point. Cane on the other hand is different, it grows like a flowerstem straight up, by, I have read, as much 3 ft per day. Trees grow uponly at the top and out at the bottom . A branch on a tree 6 ft from theground will always be 6 ft from the ground no matter how high it grows.The archives are good source of information but is it reliable? I thinkthat is up to the individual to judge.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: discussion on the changes whether they are chemical or physical may need changes would be bending, splitting, planning, breaking, sanding and soon.Chemical changesneeda reaction to initiate a change for instance such as heat or ammonia wouldbe 2 chemical changes that are utilized in rodmaking. Chemical changessuch as when heat changes the lignin from a solid to a liquid, cane cools,and back into a solid(plastinization) due result in physical changes suchas stiffness, rigidity and a increase in again for the archives: Chemically bound H20 within the cell structuremust be removed by heat which results in a permanent change to the cell the free H2O is inbetween the cells and is not bound. Drying will driveoff this moisture but moisture will reenter the cane and occupy this space a water resistant finish is applied to slow down the reabsorption of H2O a new question when does your cane reach equilibrium in your shop? And it set out in the shop the cane will increase in size due to the reabsorptionof some moisture. It will continue to do so until it reaches equilibrium equilibrium.And during this 2 week period the cane has increased in size .003- .004.Lets pretend this is a unknown to us.Onday 5 we plane 6 strips to dimension and on day 15 we plane another 6 strip this can account for some of the reasons there are dimensional differencesin tips or strips in finished rods.Maybeit is better to get the strips to size quickly after heat treating andget them glued and finished before the cane can reach equilibrium. Or maybewe should wait and let the cane reach equilibrium before planning is Granthomgot me started thinking about this, so lets blame him for my verbose --------------41AA310ED1BB22D1D36A9762-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 11 18:13:20 2001 f9BNDK416056 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:13:20 - rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Patrick,it is all about getting published and coming up with something different fromthe last guy.There, I've said it, Terry Coffey, Patrick W wrote: isn't that like saying that if you kiln dry wood that it changes so that itwont absorb and dry out in relation to the humidity in the air? If thetissue absorbed moisture in the first place heat treating wont stop that from happening, that's the nature of the material. Bamboo may not bewoodbut it acts and reacts just like it and has the same binding substancebetween the tubes. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 5:53 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content Terry - I can see how you would interpret it that way, but I believe you've drawn abroader conclusion than the experience warrants, especially since some ofthose books seem to be based on real experience, too. Here's anexplanationthat could account for your story without concluding that heat treatmentisuseless. Suppose heat treating changes the structure of the bamboo in such a waythatsome of the tissues no longer absorb water readily, and in ways that makeastrip stiffer and stronger. It may also enhance its tendency to dampvibration, though I haven't seen anything systematic on that. But anyway,itchanges the structure in ways that make it better for making rods.Relatively short term exposure to very wet conditions will not make such arod into a noodle (as many people's experience attests), though I'm notsureit would have no effect at all. Even being in damp Midwestern air for weeksat a time here in Missouri doesn't make it soft. But if someone stores arodin a saturated atmosphere, perhaps also with heat, for long enough, it'spossible for the structures in the bamboo (including those that had beenaltered by heat) to begin to break down due to long term swelling or eventhe action of bacteria. I'll bet that tube stank when he opened it. Anyway,it's perfectly consistent to think that heat treating makes bamboo better changethe bamboo in ways that made it useless and limp. to heat and might explain the occasional rod that seems an exception totherule (not that this applies to your instance, since I'm sure the rod wasfine when you shipped it out). Barry PS As far as I'm concerned, anyone who can't take a little shovel- fishingaction along with discussions like this one, and like the others I've seenlately on basic issues like making forms and the minimum gear needed tomakerods - well, it just gives me one more good idea about where to shove ashovel. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:32 PM Cc: martinrjensen@home.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content Barry,I once had a rod returned to me by Codella because a customer said it wassoft.The guy had the rod for a couple of years and had not complained before. Ichecked it out and it was amazing, I could have tied it in a knot. This wascaneheat treated @ 375F for .75hr! I tried to dry it out but I ended up makinganew rod.I did not think too much on how the rod became so soft, I was justembarrassedand wanted to fix it as soon as possible.I put the new rod in the tube and when I slipped the rod into the mailingtube Inoticed that the brass cap on the bottom of the aluminium tube was blackandcorroded as if it had been in water for a long time.I called up the owner of the rod and we talked about how the rod wasstoredandwhen I suggested that the rod had been in water he started to stutter likeabastard.The rod was kept in his basement in a metal container with a cap thatsomehowhad water in the bottom of it. The rod had no water marks, it was juststored ina very wet atmosphere. I think his was after the floods in the mid westIf I had not destroyed the rod in trying to dry it out I would have sent itbackto him for not looking after it but he ended up with a new rod.This has been proof, to me at least, that heat treating does nothing topreventmoisturepenetration and all the books saying otherwise are inaccurate.Terry Kling, Barry W. wrote: I should probably keep quiet, but.... from all I've seen and read, there are two purposes for heat treating. One is to remove moisture. But that istemporary to some degree. By far the more important purpose is toactuallychange the structure of the bamboo so that the parts of the bamboothat are most critical to a rod's action are no longer made limp when exposed towater. Milward's book suggests this occurs when the cane (not just thesurface) darkens slightly. Too much darkening can actually damage the fibers (though perhapd not critically if not taken too far) This doesn't mean nowater is absorbed by such a rod, though I believe most well designedtestsshow it's less than for untreated bamboo. But it means that whateverwateris absorbed after tempering, it doesn't change the action very much, ifatall. I don't think this is much of a mystery. Other listers have commentedthatit's well known that woods change internal structure when heattempered.Milward's book goes a long way toward proving it for bambboo. And we allknow two critical facts - no finish can keep a rod from absorbing watereventually (and we even have heard extreme examples like rodsrecoveredafter being awash for weeks) and most rods in spite of this don't varyperceptibly when they are fished on a humid Midwestern pond and then a high dry mountain stream, after plenty of time to gradually accommodate toambient humidity. Granted, there are rods that are "heat treated" but not enough tochange the structure. These are the ones that act like wet noodles when wet andthenbehave when dry. No mystery in that - it simply means they were neveradequately tempered to the extent that the internal structure changed. I don't mean to sound like there's no mystery to any of this, but the basic practical question of why we do it and what we're trying to accomplish is, I believe, fairly well answered. Flame away! Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 1:06 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm sorry I have to put words in your mouth with this statement.To reiterate, what exactly, is heat treating for? For the statedobjectives that I have heard, it doesn't really sound like an option. Ifheat treating really does remove moisture and result in a stiffer cane,and a slight weight reduction, are you saying that there are rods tobuild out there where these characteristics are not desired or required?Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Optimum moisture content I'm not certain there is a better or worse way of doing all this it'sjustthat the different methods give different results and you need toexperiment and see what you like.Once you see what you like do it the same way every time, there are alotof methods you just need to choose one. Tony At 10:07 AM 10/7/01 -0700, Wayne Kifer wrote: My understanding is that we should definitely heat treat but I'mleaning toward a lengthily seasoning to slowly lower the moisturecontent to under 6%. from everything I've learned from the wisdom onthe list this will create a stronger strip. The task would seem to beto control the reintroduction of moisture in the finished rod. The jury still seems to be out on how to accomplish this. At least those in theknow aren't giving up their secrets. Wayne :^)----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:54 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Sure sounds like maybe we shouldn't be heat treating eh? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Fw: Optimum moisture content I would think it would be an indication of equal stresses, andaccordingly strength, throughout the length of the strip. Definitelydesirable. Wayne----- Original Message -----From: "Martin Jensen" ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:32 AMSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content Do you think that the bending in a smoother curve would bedesirable? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Patrick WSent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:18 AM oandc@email.msn.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Optimum moisture content there is a difference between air drying and kiln drying (heattreating). I have a piece of bamboo D. Holbrook gave me in 1970 that was never heat treated and it is just as stiff as the ones that Iheat treat except it seems to bend in a smoother curve. My boss at theviolin shop told me it was like making Jell-O in either a icebox orthe oven, they both come out at Jell-O but are totally different intexture. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:48 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Optimum moisture content This heat treating stuff really is a strange one isn't it? Terrysays no matter what coating you use if the rod is left with a wet rag in atube it'll become spaghetti. The US dept of Forrestry (or whatever it's name is) say heating wood in no way hardens it so even though spear points used by ancientcultures seem very hard after carbonising there isn't a scientific reason toexpect this even though I've lived around people who do still livethe old ways and their spear points _look_ and _feel_ harder thanthey were before carbonising them in fires and if the spear gets wet the point always seems to get hard again upon drying. Aboriginals of Australia have a reputation what canbe a savage place to live so if they've been carbonising spearpoints for 40,000 years I think it's worth noting. Then again you can drive the moisture out by vacuum or even steam. If you steam heat timber for bending you'll have a different texture to the wood after steaming it than before and if you use kiln driedtimber it'll behave differently to naturaly dried timber. Usinggreen wood is normallybest but in any case you usually don't get two chances at bending using steam. If you don't get it first time you'll normally break the laminate next time you try. You also notice that broken laminates that havebeen steamed have a different texture beyond simply raised grain,break differently (they will normally break along the grain in amore pronouncedmanner) and are drier than the sister laminates that have not beensteamed. If you heat treat bamboo before planing as you normally would whenmaking nodeless rods it's a _lot_ harder to plane than if you planethe bamboo "green" or even wet as you do when making the rodnormally and this is thecase even if the bamboo is left for months after being heat treatedwhich suggests to me heat treating does do something which isirreversible. It'sjust too difficult for me to believe the cells and chemicals making up thebamboo aren't permanently altered by heating so it would be veryinteresting indeed to compare drying by heat and vacuum as the vacuum wouldnot alter the chemicals or not in the say way though the cells would be ruptured.Just compare freeze dried ice cream you can buy for backpackingwith what you'd get if you tried drying ice cream in an oven. It's adifferent operation. The bamboo does become useless when wet but once it dries again I'dthink it would go back to the way it was after heat treating and not as it was before heat treating. As an aside, when a rod is impregnated is it done by vacuum followed pressurized then the addition of the media or pressurized with themedia? Tony At 06:26 AM 10/7/01 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: A pressure chamber is of little value, what you need is a vacuumchamber. Driving whatever glop you prefer into the blank takes only about 10-15 minutes at 30"hg vacuum. That way the rod is notsoaked through and it is not as heavy. I always tried to get in to about .006-.008" deep. As an aside the chamber would be an excellent way to run anexperiment to see what percentage of the improvement due to heattreating can be attributed to the heating and polymerization andhow much is due to the simple drying out of the cane. An hour or two in the vacuum tankwill dry the cane out without heat. Hot dog! What a can of worms! A.J. From: "Wayne Kifer" Subject: Optimum moisture contentDate: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:14:09 -0700 I understand that the only way to prevent moisture gain in a rodwould beto impregnate the glued sections prior to applying the finish.Exotic woods and other materials such as mastodon ivory, anddearand elk antler slabs used for knife handles are impregnated under pressure.Might not an acceptable result be obtained if the sections were dried to lessthan 6Ÿ moisture content and heated in a vacuum to expand the cellstructure to enhance absorption of a sealing compound introduced into thevacuum chamber? A much less expensive setup to build than apressure chamber I would think. Any thoughts on this?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from jojo@ipa.net Thu Oct 11 18:19:19 2001 f9BNJI416549 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:19:18 -0500 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:19:17 -0400 Subject: Re: dessicant Bill, Got some from McMaster-Carr, www.mcmaster.com Wasn't really cheap butthen,nothing from McMaster is. M-D Hey, Bob, So, where do you get yours? All the sources I've seen are dead links. Ifinally got some US military spec bags from American Science and Surplus.Not silica gel, it's clay. Bill At 02:41 PM 10/11/2001 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote: When it turns Blue... or Red, depending on the brand than it is full ofmoisture and won't hold anymore. Unless heated, it will NOT release it'smoisture. This stuff is so cheap that there's no excuse for not changingthe dessicant out every couple of rods. For a very small amount of money, you can insure that it never has a chance to reach it's saturation point. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods http://membe rs.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: Chris Raine Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:06 PMSubject: dessicant Which leads us to the question: at what point does the bag of dessicant in the tube release its moisture to the dryer bamboo? from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 11 18:47:33 2001 f9BNlX417963 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:47:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good I could understand all this if you had gone to China with your rodmakingequipment and chopped down a culm and set to work on it. We are not dealingwithgreen "wood" but cane that has been warehoused and shipped halfway roundtheworld and is not green by the time we get it.Lumber has to dried carefully because it splits and warps and the moisturecontent of dried lumber has to closly match that of the environment ofwhere itwill be used otherwise furniture will split or fall to pieces.I do not think there is any need to worry about free water, unless Demarestfloats the cane up the Hudson! Miller, Troy wrote: I think the distinction between bound water and free water is important. Ananalogy. If you had a chemical solution (by definition, different from asuspension) of sugar in water, then boiled off the water phase, you wouldhave a liquid sugar left in the bottom of the pan (assuming you are abovethe melting point of the sugar). If you allowed the sugar to solidify (bycooling), it would be dense and dehydrated. Now if you re-introduce water,the water would only be able to re-enter by dissolving the solid mass ofsugar. This is possible, because water dissolves sugar. Let's say you have a different mixture, a plastic with (covalently) boundwater in the molecular structure. Now introduce heat to both melt theplastic and drive off the water molecules, so you are left with only theplastic molecules. Let this cool into a solid mass. Reintroduction ofwater to the system will not result in the plastic being dissolved by thewater. The plastic is not "soluble" in water. How did the water get boundto the plastic molecules in the first place? It was a chemical reactionwhich required some energy to initiate. Once the reaction has taken place,then it is stable until something breaks the bonds. In this case, boilingit broke the bonds. I think that is what is going on with heat treating(but can offer no proof).We agree that we drive off a great deal of moisture from the little tubes,which can readily be re-absorbed by capillary action (what most peoplereferto as "wicking"). But we also drive off water that was bound to thelignins, which will never re-bond to the lignins. Rick Crenshaw has a greatresource locally available -- Rick, could you ask her if this is the case?Your posts last year have given the clearest picture so far for me.... TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:46 PM Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good You guys are starting to sound like 13 year olds talking about sex. Beforeyou argue about whether something is physical or chemical, shouldn't wefirst know how the folks who work in those fields define the two terms?Shouldn't we note that chemistry is often described as one of the "physicalsciences?" Shouldn't we also note that the last 50 years of research hasdemonstrated that the divisions between the sciences are more semanticthanempirical? Perhaps we could also note that the methods and effects ofremoving or inserting certain elements from molecules is a major fieldwithin chemistry (Such as M-D's example of removing the water fromperoxide), but so is the process of mixing and/or removing variousmoleculesto create useful compounds without introducing what M-D would call a"chemical" change. Whether it's chemistry or physics (if that distinctionmatters) is irrelevant, especially in a conversation among a bunch of canerod makers who are (for the most part) neither chemists nor physicists. Possibly an important question: M-D, do we in fact know that intercellular(or did you mean intracellular) moisture is removed that it cannot reenter? -----Original Message----- from jojo@ipa.net Thu Oct 11 19:02:55 2001 f9C02s418803 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:02:54 -0500 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:02:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good James, I don't know that my having been a chemist means that I have any usefulinformation. ;o) I wasn't arguing what you have inferred here, nor was I propounding that.The whole idea was predicated upon those certain conditions precedent. Themere migration of water out of the interstices within the bamboo is not achemical reaction, and I never meant to imply otherwise. I've only sought toclarify some of the thinking here. As verbose as I am, it would be even moreso if I didn't try to be brief in these posts, and one of the casualties ofthis brevity is not fully developing an idea, thought, or position. Thatsaid, the mere migration of water from the interstices can have an affect onchemical reactions future, as I stated before. from a standpoint of finished product, you're correct, it doesn't matter tome what is going on within the rod, chemically or physically, but it doesmatter to me when I am trying to understand what is happening, what mightbedone to affect certain outcomes. I am constantly experimenting withchemicals in an effort to induce some reaction or another, whether in caneor metal. Lately, I have been working with a substance that normally wouldnot be thought of in a context with bamboo, as would be varnishes and otherfinishes. It definitely is hydrophobic, and the resulting weight gain isbarely ascertainable on a gram scale. I suppose it should be enough tosimply know that it works, but for me it's not. I want to know why it works,too. My point of whether something was physical or chemical was simply to clarifywhat it is we are talking about. I wasn't arguing, and I don't think Art waseither. He merely pointed out something, which I then tried to clarify. I dothink it important to understand which type of moisture we are discussing,and thus whether the results are physical or chemical. It may not beimportant to everyone, as everyone doesn't give a hoot what happens, theyjust want it to happen. The "I want it now!" vagary of our society. You're right, I think. After I sent one of those posts I realized that Ishould have also used the term "intracellular" along with the intercellularI used. Those are significant distinctions. M-D OK so you were a chemist. That's very good, means you have information that should be useful to us. (I mean that, I intend to pick your brain now that I know). Finishing, for instance, is almost entirely an exercise in applied chemistry. You say a chemical change is "change of a substance into another substance, arguing that the mere migration of intracellular H2O was a "chemical" change rather than a physical one. That doesn't make sense to me. But it also doesn'tmatter to me whether it is chemical or physical, and I really don't think it matters to you. What matters is whether we can induce changes, andmakethem permanent. Whether it is a permanent physical change, or apermanentchemical change does not matter one wit to either the maker or the user, if the change is beneficial and we can control it we will do so. I agree that mathematics may be the only science, though I still feelstrongly that physicsis more than just applied mathematics. I do feelhowever, that you are entirely correct that the other physical sciences are mainly applied physics. Which is why I think it is silly to argue overwhether a change in bamboo is chemical or physical. Of course it isphysical, it has to be physical, otherwise it is only spiritual or imaginary and therefore useless to us. BTW, I actually want to know, did you mean intercellular mositure does notreenter, or intracellular moisture. My understanding was always thatintracellular moisture could be permanently removed, but that intercellular moisture was the problem we were trying to solve with varnish. -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:49 PM Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good James, Do I know, for a fact that either intercellular or intracellular moisturecannot re-enter our bamboo? No, and unless anyone else reading thesewordshas actually done the testing, neither does anyone here. As with all of what we do in life, none of us has all the facts. We rely upon what others tellus, or lead us to believe, and formulate our own opinions from that; thus,garbage in, garbage out. What I was relating is the conventionally accepted theory in wood sciences, theory formulated from actual testing and themeasurement of the results, both quantitatively and qualitatively. This is a little more involved than I did this, and this is what I think based solely upon my empirical observations, which is what 95% of rodmaking is -- theory vs. hypothesis. The difference here being measurable results using standards of measurement. The testing of Cross proved that there were chemical changes implemented in the test substrate. Don't know that his results answeryouroriginal question regarding moisture re-entry, though. There are those onthis List who have quite a bit of experience in the fields of Wood Sciences, and in Botany. Whether they are inclined to input here is another matter. As for definitions: Physical changeA change in the form of a substance, for instance, from solid to liquid orliquid to gas or solid to gas, without changing the chemical composition of the substance. Chemical bonds are not broken in a physical change.Examples: Boiling of water and the melting of ice, or in the case of heattreating bamboo, to steam. Chemical changeThe change of a substance into another substance, by reorganization oftheatoms, i.e. by the making and breaking of chemical bonds. In a chemicalchange a chemical reaction takes place.Examples: Rusting of iron and the decomposition of water, induced by anelectric current, to gaseous hydrogen and gaseous oxygen, or in the case of heat treated bamboo, the carbonization and caramelization, all of whichinvolves oxidation-reduction reactions, including the liberation of waterand other gases. More than just semantics, I would say; but then, biology is appliedchemistry, chemistry is applied physics, physics is applied mathematics.Math being the only pure science, as it were. And, I think it does matter to a bunch of rodmakers whether or not we aretalking about chemical or physical change, as it potentially could make adifference in whether, or not, we are able to continuously maintain thedesired physical characteristics of our rods, through a possible solution of chemically altering the bamboo. BTW, in a former life I was a chemist, not that it reallymatters. I'm just a rodmaker now. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:46 PMSubject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good You guys are starting to sound like 13 year olds talking about sex. Before you argue about whether something is physical or chemical, shouldn't wefirst know how the folks who work in those fields define the two terms?Shouldn't we note that chemistry is often described as one of the "physical sciences?" Shouldn't we also note that the last 50 years of research has demonstrated that the divisions between the sciences are moresemantic than empirical? Perhaps we could also note that the methods and effects ofremoving or inserting certain elements from molecules is a major fieldwithin chemistry (Such as M-D's example of removing the water fromperoxide), but so is the process of mixing and/or removing various molecules to create useful compounds without introducing what M-D would call a"chemical" change. Whether it's chemistry or physics (if that distinction matters) is irrelevant, especially in a conversation among a bunch of cane rod makers who are (for the most part) neither chemists nor physicists. Possibly an important question: M-D, do we in fact know that intercellular (or did you mean intracellular) moisture is removed that it cannot reenter? Art, What I wrote was predicated upon those certain conditions precedent,andyes, merely removing moisture itself is a physical change, but the removal of intercellular moisture alters an ability for certain chemical changes to occur, or recur, thus the shrinkage seen in bamboo is a physicallymeasurable quantity, but along with that shrinkage goes chemicalchangesthat are irreversible, at least as it pertains to a bamboo rod. Freezedrying is an example of an irreversible process, one that even thoughmoisture may be introduced again, will never produce the same resultsasbefore the drying. Let's say we have hydrogen peroxide, H2O2, now if weremove water, H20, from the peroxide have we not both physically andchemically changed the composition? Merely adding back water to theremaining molecules of oxygen will not produce hydrogen peroxide again. To do so would require a specific set of conditions. M-D From: "Art Port" M-D,I think, if I remember my HS chemistry, that water removal is a physical change, no different from pouring it out of a vase or squeezing it out of a sponge. The other outcomes of heating may be chemical in nature, but not that one, I think.It may be more trouble than doing that, but it is perfectly analogous. Art From: "Jojo DeLancier" Peter, The removal of water is a chemical change, one that can, given the right conditions precedent, prevent other chemical/physical changes future, and you are heat treating if you are flaming. Merely subjecting anything to heat, per se, will not result in irreversible changes, but given enough time and temp will reduce bamboo/wood to charcoal, which is an irreversible change. M-D From: "Peter McKean" Hello again, Tony I really don't know whether Martin has got it technically right, but he states his case so elegantly that I am not about to dispute it; BUT, it doesn't seem to me that it is necessary to assume chemicalchanges take place in any of his examples save "caramelisation" and "carbonisation" - all the other things are probably physical changes. BIG SNIP I would be a more willing convert to the doctrine of heat treating if only I could ever find any great degree of consensus about the parameters of the process. No three authors agree, and the discrepancies are quiteconsiderable! Peter from rmcelvain@uswest.net Thu Oct 11 19:10:19 2001 f9C0AJ419342 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:10:19 -0500 (63.230.4.232) Subject: RE: Bluing forms? Old fashioned chrome plating will be several .001s in is very hard and will resist filing and stones, and might damage the use will require the forms to be polished before plating to remove all Just my thoughts, Bob McElvain At 10:11 AM 10/11/2001 +0800, you wrote: sure the=thickness of chrome plating ismeasured know would the from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 11 19:20:48 2001 f9C0Kl420082 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:20:47 - ;Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:20:42 +0000 , "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: dessicant Carsten:How long do you dry the dessicant in the microwave? The reason I am =asking is that my gun safe canisters call for 240* for 3 hours. That =always seemed like a very long time and maybe I can shorten the time =using the microwave. Jack Carsten:How long do you dry the dessicant in = The reason I am asking is that my gun safe canisters call for 240* for 3 = That always seemed like a very long time and maybe I can shorten the = the microwave. Jack from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Oct 11 19:29:37 2001 f9C0Ta420617 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:29:36 -0500 f9C0TYT13516; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:29:34 -0500 Subject: Re: dessicant You can find it in Hobby Lobby or J C Moor's.It is used to dry flowers.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Jojo DeLancier wrote: Bill, Got some from McMaster-Carr, www.mcmaster.com Wasn't really cheapbut then,nothing from McMaster is. M-D From: "Bill Hoy" Hey, Bob, So, where do you get yours? All the sources I've seen are dead links. Ifinally got some US military spec bags from American Science andSurplus.Not silica gel, it's clay. Bill At 02:41 PM 10/11/2001 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote: When it turns Blue... or Red, depending on the brand than it is full ofmoisture and won't hold anymore. Unless heated, it will NOT release it'smoisture. This stuff is so cheap that there's no excuse for notchangingthe dessicant out every couple of rods. For a very small amount of money, you can insure that it never has a chance to reach it's saturation point. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods http://membe rs.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: Chris Raine Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:06 PMSubject: dessicant Which leads us to the question: at what point does the bag of dessicant in the tube release its moisture to the dryer bamboo? from grnmtrods@outdrs.net Thu Oct 11 20:04:00 2001 f9C13x422103 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:03:59 - Subject: Hal Bacon n/s tubing Hal, Today was good to me . In the mail ,I received the ns tubing you said youwould send ...I have even had the opportunity to solder up one of the ringsyou had sent for a sample, to a check. Thank you very much for being so kind\. Hal, if you ever get up to the Burlington area and you would like to try outsome of the local waters, just holler and we'll do it. Thank you very much again,Jim/Vermont P>S> Hal, I could not mail this to your e-mail address. It wouldn't go. from grnmtrods@outdrs.net Thu Oct 11 20:11:05 2001 f9C1B5422580 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:11:05 - Subject: Tony Miller ---swelled butts-cedar Tony, You might try Lon Blauvelt .Ihave seen some of the rods he has done thatway. His e-mail address is on canerod.com He hasn't been very good atanswering any mail lately. I don't know if he is sick or what is going on. Best,Jim /Vermont from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Oct 11 20:12:26 2001 f9C1CQ422792 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:12:26 - SAA15769 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:12:28 - Subject: Spar? or not to Spar? I currently use Varathane 900 for a finish. Looks good easy to use. I =was contemplating on using a spar finish. Any recommendations? I am not =interested in hunting through old hardware store looking for it. =Something currently being produced that can be recommended with the % of=thinning would be appreciated. Adam Vigil recommendations? I am not interested in hunting through old hardware = looking for it. Something currently being produced that can be = the % of thinning would be appreciated. AdamVigil from bamboorods@saber.net Thu Oct 11 21:05:59 2001 f9C25w424393 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:05:58 - for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:05:57 - Subject: Heat treating and moisture control McClure had his own idea. "The pectic compounds which cement plant =cells together are soluble in hot water. Although the culms are =comparatively dry after repeated sunnings, perhaps the water present in =the pectic layer is sufficient, when heated, to cause a softening of =this material which makes possible the slight adjustment between the =tissues necessary in the straightening process."So using McClure's idea, we have at least 2 scenarios with sections that = 1. Moisture will cause bending of the section if heat is applied (hot =car, pressure from sock on rod while in case)2. Pectic compounds are not as hard when moisture is present, giving =credence to noodly rods being moisture- bound.Chris compounds which cement plant cells together are soluble in hot = Although the culms are comparatively dry after repeated sunnings, = water present in the pectic layer is sufficient, when heated, to cause a = softening of this material which makes possible the slight adjustment = the tissues necessary in the straightening process."So using McClure's idea, we haveat = scenarios with sections that contain moisture: 1. Moisture will cause bending of = heat is applied (hot car, pressure from sock on rod while in =case)2. Pectic compounds are not ashard = moisture-bound.Chris from dmanders@telusplanet.net Thu Oct 11 22:07:59 2001 f9C37w425459 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 22:07:58 - Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:07:55 -0600 Carsten =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F8rgensen?=,, "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: desiccant Jack, What you are trying to do is to increase the temperature of the desiccantabove the latent heat of water. [ the point where it changes from a waterto steam ]. It takes a while. I work with natural gas and we dry the gas to -130F dew-point beforeentry to the cryogenic unit. The desiccant absorber requires about 5hours of heat time reaching 450F. Very little water is driven off in thelast hour or so. Don't heat the desiccant to fast. The water moleculeswithin the desiccant bead will expand faster than the ability of thedesiccant to release them resulting in cracking of the desiccant. Thisprocess is loved by Dow Corning. A bed of desiccant is about $ 100,000. regards, Don At 08:20 PM 10/11/01 -0400, Jacques Follweiler wrote: ArialCarsten: How long do you dry the dessicant in the microwave? The reason I amasking is that my gun safe canisters call for 240* for 3 hours. Thatalways seemed like a very long time and maybe I can shorten the timeusing the microwave. ArialJack from JNL123141@msn.com Thu Oct 11 23:29:37 2001 f9C4Ta427387 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:29:37 - Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:29:19 -0700 Subject: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... FILETIME=[75DD7050:01C152D6] To all,While visiting Winston Rod Co. a couple of years ago, I had an interestin=g talk with Glen Bracket. I mentioned that some day I would like to buil=d a few rods in a desert climate where humidity would not be an issue and=I suggested that the rods might be a little more crisp. He really surpr=ised me when he said they have to steam the strips after final tapering o=therwise the glue won't hold if the cane is too dry. (Twin Bridges MT is=high desert country)So here on one hand, most of us try to keep our cane as dry as possible u=ntil at least one coat of finish is applied and on the other hand, it is =necessary to steam before gluing. I seem to remember from readingsomewh=ere that when gluing wood, the optimum moisture content for the glue to h=old is 8%. I know bamboo is a grass, not wood but what are we dealing wi=th here? Are only some types glue sensitive to moisture content? Is any=one out there on the list making rods in a desert climate? Please reply. John Toall, =While visiting Winston Rod Co. a couple of years ago, I had an inter= the =;strips after final tapering otherwise the glue won't hold if the cane is= read= from saweiss@flash.net Fri Oct 12 00:08:21 2001 f9C58K428164 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:08:20 -0500 f9C58Cs181828; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:08:12 -0400 Subject: Re: winston taper Organization: Prodigy Internet Here is a taper for a Winston 7'6" 4-wt Hollobuilt. It was made for NormThompson in 1965. I made this rod for a friend who has the original anddoesn't want to fish with it. I did not hollow the butt, and it's only 1/4oz. heavier than the Winston. A nice smooth medium action that easily castsa DT4 out to 50-60 ft. My friend is a very active flyfisher and has at least100 trips on the rod, probably with over a thousand fish caught on it. Hethinks that it casts better than the original. This may be because not beinghollow, it has a little faster action. Points Dimensions FormPoint 1 .05800 .03000Point 5 .07530 .03865Point 10 .09100 .04650Point 15 .10500 .05350Point 20 .12100 .06150Point 25 .13550 .06875Point 30 .15400 .07800Point 35 .16300 .08250Point 40 .17800 .09000Point 45 .18700 .09450Point 50 .19900 .10050Point 55 .20500 .10350Point 60 .21950 .11075Point 65 .23550 .11875Point 70 .24700 .12450Point 75 .25900 .13050Point 80 .28600 .14400Point 85 .28600 .14400Point 90 .28600 .14400Guide spacing:3 15/16, 7 13/16, 12 5/8, 18 3/8, 24 1/4, 30 1/4, 36 3/8, 43, 50 9/16,59(9 + stripper).The original has a reverse half wells grip that flows right into the corkreel seat and has a down lock ring and cap.Steve My favorite rod maker among the 'plastic' rods by far is Winston. I own a3wt LT 5pc rod and really like how it flexes well into the lower sections. I have never had the oportunity to play with the bamboo rods that this finecompany makes. Does anyone on the list have experience with Winston bamboo? Does anyone have a taper for a 3,4 or 5 wt rod they would share with me? from jczimny@dol.net Fri Oct 12 00:25:16 2001 f9C5PF428675 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:25:15 -0500 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... Almost all non-epoxy glues need 12 to 15% ambient moisture onthe glueing surfaces. The reason for this is that many of theseglues are resins suspended in water. If the substrate is toodry, upon application of the glue, it immediately sucks thewater out of the glue mixture before the resin successfullypenetrates into the substrate.Usually, the resin molecules, nolonger dispersed in the water, kick into a polymer right alongthe line of the substrate. This prevents further penetration ofthe uncured resin. Causing a "fault line". The laminationsusually fail at this point.Winston also moistens their strips before milling.This water leaves the sections very rapidly.JohnZ John Long wrote: To all,While visiting Winston Rod Co. a couple of years ago, Ihad an interesting talk with Glen Bracket. I mentioned thatsome day I would like to build a few rods in a desert climatewhere humidity would not be an issue and I suggested that therods might be a little more crisp. He really surprised mewhen he said they have to steam the strips after finaltapering otherwise the glue won't hold if the cane is toodry. (Twin Bridges MT is high desert country)So here on onehand, most of us try to keep our cane as dry as possible untilat least one coat of finish is applied and on the other hand,it is necessary to steam before gluing. I seem to remember from reading somewhere that when gluing wood, the optimummoisture content for the glue to hold is 8%. I know bamboo isa grass, not wood but what are we dealing with here? Are onlysome types glue sensitive to moisture content? Is anyone outthere on the list making rods in a desert climate? Pleasereply. John from rodwrapp@swbell.net Fri Oct 12 00:46:34 2001 f9C5kX429319 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:46:33 -0500 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Bamboo Magazine I was wondering how a Bamboo Magazine would work.. I had a customer todaythat came into shop and he is a Publisher, and is looking for something rightnow ... I know nothing about this and was wondering what happened to theBamboo Magazine that went belly up.. I just thought this could be a goodoportunity for a new magazine.. Thanks Dave I was wondering how a Bamboo Magazinewould work.. I had a customer today that came into shop and he is a Publisher, and islooking wondering what happened to the Bamboo Magazine that went belly just thought this could be a good oportunity for a new from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Fri Oct 12 01:03:32 2001 f9C63V429785 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:03:32 -0500 Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:03:32 +0100 Subject: Re: Bamboo Magazine AAggggggggggggggggggggggghNot this again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Davesrods wrote: I was wondering how a Bamboo Magazine would work.. I had a customertoday that came into shop and he is a Publisher, and is looking forsomething right now ... I know nothing about this and was wonderingwhat happened to the Bamboo Magazine that went belly up.. I justthought this could be a good oportunity for a new magazine.. ThanksDave from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 01:10:15 2001 f9C6AE400113 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:10:15 -0500 11 Oct 2001 23:10:14 PDT Subject: Re: Bamboo Magazine dave, we have a very good online magazine now. timothy --- "paul.blakley" wrote: AAggggggggggggggggggggggghNot this again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Davesrods wrote: I was wondering how a Bamboo Magazine would work.. I had a customer today that came into shop and he is a Publisher, and is looking for something right now ... I know nothing about this and was wondering what happened to the Bamboo Magazine that went belly up.. I just thought this could be a good oportunity for a new magazine.. Thanks Dave ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Oct 12 05:38:53 2001 f9CAcq402970 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:38:53 -0500 v4.1.40/v4164. . Clean. Processed in 0.56827 secs); 12 Oct 2001 10:33:17-0000 sender ) Subject: Re: Spar? or not to Spar? --------------844A19E271A37615AFEE89C5 In my mind ther is no better spar than Pratt & Lamberts #61 SparVarnish. I thin 10 - 15%. Marty Adam Vigil wrote: I currently use Varathane 900 for a finish. Looks good easy to use. Iwas contemplating on using a spar finish. Any recommendations? I amnot interested in hunting through old hardware store looking for it.Something currently being produced that can be recommended with the %of thinning would be appreciated. Adam Vigil --------------844A19E271A37615AFEE89C5 In my mind ther is no better spar than Pratt & Lamberts #61 SparVarnish.I thin 10 - 15%. MartyAdam Vigil wrote: currently use Varathane 900 for a finish. Looks good easy to use. I wascontemplating on using a spar finish. Any recommendations? I am notinterestedin hunting through old hardware store looking for it. Something currentlybeing produced that can be recommended with the % of thinning would be Vigil --------------844A19E271A37615AFEE89C5-- from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Oct 12 05:48:36 2001 f9CAmZ403252 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:48:36 -0500 (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4164. . Clean. Processed in 0.53992 secs); 12 Oct 200110:43:23 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... When I visited Winston a few years ago they were in the process ofgluing up strips. The glue they used was water based and smelled andlooked just like Elmers white glue. Glen told me it was similar.The last rod I recently glued up I used Titebond Extend water basedglue. I was very impressed with it. I didn't have to wear any gloves andit was very easy to work with. It seems to hold better than my usualUrac. Time will tell.Marty John Long wrote: To all,While visiting Winston Rod Co. a couple of years ago, I had aninteresting talk with Glen Bracket. I mentioned that some day I wouldlike to build a few rods in a desert climate where humidity would notbe an issue and I suggested that the rods might be a little morecrisp. He really surprised me when he said they have to steam thestrips after final tapering otherwise the glue won't hold if the caneis too dry. (Twin Bridges MT is high desert country)So here on onehand, most of us try to keep our cane as dry as possible until atleast one coat of finish is applied and on the other hand, it isnecessary to steam before gluing. I seem to remember from readingsomewhere that when gluing wood, the optimum moisture content for theglue to hold is 8%. I know bamboo is a grass, not wood but what arewe dealing with here? Are only some types glue sensitive to moisturecontent? Is anyone out there on the list making rods in a desertclimate? Please reply. John from channer@frontier.net Fri Oct 12 07:02:09 2001 f9CC29403952 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:02:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... John;I live in Durango,Co, which is way down in the bottom left hand cornerof the state. The humidity here is usually 20% or under, yeah, in themorning or when it's raining it can get higher, but when the sun is outit is dry,dry,dry. I use Epon, so it doesn't seem to affect me much,solvent based glues don't have the too dry problem. I used Urac for awhile, and it was fine with the ammonium chloride catalyst because therewas extra water in the mixture from it and it wet the strips ok., thepodwer catalyst it comes with was way too thivk and went off to fast. Sofar, in 5 years I haven't had any delamination problems with Epon.(knockon wood)John from jerryy@webtv.net Fri Oct 12 07:05:49 2001 f9CC5m404216 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:05:48 -0500 by mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:05:51 -0700 (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id FAA29356; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:05:47 - ETAsAhRdIKxoBg5GbCJm0KzfThm4nYYfTQIUAiaIeU9gjF0owQ644atN2zL/6iM= Subject: Heat treating with ammonia Have some Granger strips ready for the oven. I have only been able tofind pharmacutical grade of ammonia carbonate that is $10 for a small 41/2 oz bottle. Has anybody tried a pan of the 23% ammonia liquid used bottle state there is no flamability hazard. Still searching for thatcarmel color. T.I.A. Jerry Young from bob@downandacross.com Fri Oct 12 07:29:09 2001 f9CCT8404775 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:29:08 -0500 Subject: RE: Bamboo Magazine Thanks Tim. It will be out Monday, heck or high water as they say. It is 40+pages and the guys did a real bang up job as usual.Best regards, Bob Bob Maulucci218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716- 867-0523 cellularhttp://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Bamboo Magazine dave, we have a very good online magazine now.timothy --- "paul.blakley" wrote: AAggggggggggggggggggggggghNot this again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Davesrods wrote: I was wondering how a Bamboo Magazine would work.. I had a customer today that came into shop and he is a Publisher, and is looking for something right now ... I know nothing about this and was wondering what happened to the Bamboo Magazine that went belly up.. I just thought this could be a good oportunity for a new magazine.. Thanks Dave ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from harms1@pa.net Fri Oct 12 07:29:46 2001 f9CCTj404875 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:29:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Troy, I believe your explanation is correct. There are differences, to be sure,between a wood product and a grass product, but there is no difference astothe "bound" moisture and "free" moisture issue.The moisture that is driven out of the lignin structures does not return, asthose particular bundles of cells will have been irreversably altered. This is only ONE issue, however. Terry Ackland is also correct, I believe,when he points out that the cane that reaches us in our shops had alreadygone through considerable natural seasoning or "curing" (much as cutfirewood will have done over a period of a couple years prior to use). Justpossibly, our various techniques of heat-treating our cane only "complete"this process. The OTHER issue, however, is that of the "free" moisture. This can (andwill) re-enter the cane, because it occupies the spaces between and aroundthe "plasticized" lignin structures. While it is possible, under certaincircumstances, that enough of this moisture can be re-absorbed to make aflyrod feel almost as soggy as when the cane was actually "green," it is alsothe case that this form of moisture can be forced out once again-- leavingthe rod as good as it was after the heat-treating. Woodworkers know that once a piece of wood has been properly seasoned,thewood becomes essentially stable (always a relative term, apart from someform of impregnation), and whatever water it is exposed to subsequently caneasily be driven out again without affecting the integrity of the wood.Water can never make a seasoned piece of wood resemble its former "green"state. I recently bought about sixty pieces of ancient maple burl for reel seats.The stump was pulled from a mud-slide on Mt. Ranier a couple years ago, andwhen tested at the University of Oregon, it was found to be nearly 900 yearsold. This wood, although naturally cured through the centuries, has becomethoroughly saturated with water, much as a sponge would have done. Whencutinto slabs and then into blocks, the wood air-dried very quickly, leavingthe essential integrity of the wood entirely intact. We can say foreverthat wood and bamboo are not the same, and while this is true in many ways,the differences do not apply to what has just been discussed. So, we do what we can to "cure" our bamboo. And we do what we can to buildunder low humidity conditions. And we do what we can to ensure a goodfinish on the completed rod. And we do what we can to store our rods in dryconditions. More than this we cannot do, knowing that the rod will foreverremain vulnerable to the natural processes called "breathing." There seems to be little reason for us to get crazy about all these issues,as the common sense we have already accumulated (whether scientificallyunderstood or not) seem to address the issues about as well as we are goingto be able to do. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good I could understand all this if you had gone to China with your rodmakingequipment and chopped down a culm and set to work on it. We are not dealing with green "wood" but cane that has been warehoused and shipped halfwayround the world and is not green by the time we get it.Lumber has to dried carefully because it splits and warps and the moisturecontent of dried lumber has to closly match that of the environment of where it will be used otherwise furniture will split or fall to pieces.I do not think there is any need to worry about free water, unless Demarest floats the cane up the Hudson! Miller, Troy wrote: I think the distinction between bound water and free water is important. An analogy. If you had a chemical solution (by definition, different from a suspension) of sugar in water, then boiled off the water phase, you would have a liquid sugar left in the bottom of the pan (assuming you are above the melting point of the sugar). If you allowed the sugar to solidify (by cooling), it would be dense and dehydrated. Now if you re-introduce water, the water would only be able to re-enter by dissolving the solid mass ofsugar. This is possible, because water dissolves sugar. Let's say you have a different mixture, a plastic with (covalently) bound water in the molecular structure. Now introduce heat to both melt theplastic and drive off the water molecules, so you are left with only theplastic molecules. Let this cool into a solid mass. Reintroduction ofwater to the system will not result in the plastic being dissolved by the water. The plastic is not "soluble" in water. How did the water get bound to the plastic molecules in the first place? It was a chemical reactionwhich required some energy to initiate. Once the reaction has taken place, then it is stable until something breaks the bonds. In this case, boiling it broke the bonds. I think that is what is going on with heat treating(but can offer no proof). We agree that we drive off a great deal of moisture from the little tubes, which can readily be re-absorbed by capillary action (what most people refer to as "wicking"). But we also drive off water that was bound to thelignins, which will never re-bond to the lignins. Rick Crenshaw has a great resource locally available -- Rick, could you ask her if this is the case? Your posts last year have given the clearest picture so far for me.... TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:46 PM Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good You guys are starting to sound like 13 year olds talking about sex. Before you argue about whether something is physical or chemical, shouldn't wefirst know how the folks who work in those fields define the two terms?Shouldn't we note that chemistry is often described as one of the "physical sciences?" Shouldn't we also note that the last 50 years of research has demonstrated that the divisions between the sciences are moresemantic than empirical? Perhaps we could also note that the methods and effects ofremoving or inserting certain elements from molecules is a major fieldwithin chemistry (Such as M-D's example of removing the water fromperoxide), but so is the process of mixing and/or removing various molecules to create useful compounds without introducing what M-D would call a"chemical" change. Whether it's chemistry or physics (if that distinction matters) is irrelevant, especially in a conversation among a bunch of cane rod makers who are (for the most part) neither chemists nor physicists. Possibly an important question: M-D, do we in fact know that intercellular (or did you mean intracellular) moisture is removed that it cannot reenter? -----Original Message----- from bob@downandacross.com Fri Oct 12 07:31:45 2001 f9CCVi405229 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:31:44 -0500 Subject: RE: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... HI Marty:I am looking into Dap Weldwood Plastic Resin. I know several guys who haveused it with good results. I believe it may be the stuff Glenn uses, JoeByrd could shed some light on this.I like the Borden Urac equivelent, but the shelf life is short. I have builta ton of rods since getting the Borden, and I have to throw out half aquart.Best regards, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... When I visited Winston a few years ago they were in the process ofgluing up strips. The glue they used was water based and smelled andlooked just like Elmers white glue. Glen told me it was similar.The last rod I recently glued up I used Titebond Extend water basedglue. I was very impressed with it. I didn't have to wear any gloves andit was very easy to work with. It seems to hold better than my usualUrac. Time will tell.Marty from harms1@pa.net Fri Oct 12 07:42:31 2001 f9CCgT405705 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:42:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... I think there are some glues that rely upon a certain amount of moisture forthe curing process to take place. But there are other glues whose vehicleswill simply be "wicked" away if the surfaces being glued are toodry-- leaving one with a starved joint. John Zimny is the man to ask about this, or Patrick Coffey. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... To all,While visiting Winston Rod Co. a couple of years ago, I had an interestingtalk with Glen Bracket. I mentioned that some day I would like to build afew rods in a desert climate where humidity would not be an issue and Isuggested that the rods might be a little more crisp. He really surprisedme when he said they have to steam the strips after final tapering otherwisethe glue won't hold if the cane is too dry. (Twin Bridges MT is high desertcountry)So here on one hand, most of us try to keep our cane as dry as possibleuntil at least one coat of finish is applied and on the other hand, it isnecessary to steam before gluing. I seem to remember from readingsomewherethat when gluing wood, the optimum moisture content for the glue to hold is8%. I know bamboo is a grass, not wood but what are we dealing with here?Are only some types glue sensitive to moisture content? Is anyone out thereon the list making rods in a desert climate? Please reply. John from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Fri Oct 12 07:55:26 2001 f9CCtQ406197 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:55:26 -0500 Subject: Need some help I have an old cane blank I built - I used 5 minute epoxy forferrules. (Left over from plastic rod building days)Does anyone know of away to remove these epoxied on ferrules? The fit isloose from male to female and I want to replace, if unable to remove anygood suggestions on tightening this connection? Thanks, Peter from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Oct 12 08:08:00 2001 f9CD80406731 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:08:00 -0500 (authenticated) Fri, 12 Oct 2001 06:07:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Need some help Peter, Gentle application of heat (heat gun, alcohol lamp) will break downalmost all 5 minute epoxies. Give the ferrule short bursts of heat in orderto prevent cooking your finish or delaminating the rod sections.Be sure to point the ferrule away from you though. Sometimes heatingthe epoxy forms a gas which propels the ferrule rather violently. Harry Peter Van Schaack wrote: Does anyone know of away to remove these epoxied on ferrules? -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Oct 12 08:10:50 2001 f9CDAn406987 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:10:49 -0500 (authenticated) for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 06:10:39 -0700 Subject: List etiquette Friends, Just a friendly reminder that editing and deleting themajority of the quoted portion of one's replies will greatlyreduce the bulkiness of the archives. It only takes aminute, and should make life easier for Jerry Foster and forthose who will be searching the archives in the future. Not directed at anyone or any particular post...Harry from JNL123141@msn.com Fri Oct 12 08:25:20 2001 f9CDPJ407541 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:25:19 -0500 Fri, 12 Oct 2001 06:25:18 -0700 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: Need some help FILETIME=[55B5D290:01C15321] Try putting one layer of masking tape around the outside of the female fe=rrule then put it in a three jaw lathe chuck and tighten a little. Loos=en and rotate the ferrule 60 deg.and do it again. This is trial error so=go a little at a time but it works. For removing ferrules, I have had t= ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Need some help I have an old cane blank I built - I used 5 minute epoxy forferrules. (Left over from plastic rod building days)Does anyone know of away to remove these epoxied on ferrules? The fit isloose from male to female and I want to replace, if unable to remove anygood suggestions on tightening this connection? Thanks, Peter Tryputting on=e layer of masking tape around the outside of the female ferrule then put= Subject: Need some help&nb=sp;I have an old cane blank I built - I used 5 minute epoxy for=ferrules. (Left over from plastic rod building days)Does anyone know =of away to remove these epoxied on ferrules? The fit isloose from mal=e to female and I want to replace, if unable to remove anygood sugges=tions on tightening thisconnection?Thanks,Peter from JNL123141@msn.com Fri Oct 12 08:39:02 2001 f9CDd1408162 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:39:02 -0500 Fri, 12 Oct 2001 06:39:00 -0700 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... FILETIME=[3FB93E30:01C15323] The glue Winston uses is non toxic-that is their shop policy, they will u=se nothing toxic in their cane rod making as it saves a whole bag of pote=ntial problems. It is a white liquid (looks like Elmer,s white glue) and=it requires a clear liquid to be mixed with it. It is purchased in 5 ga=l. quantities. and has a shelf life (can't remember how long). Glen gave=me some to try but I didn't get to it before it became too old. They mi=x up large batches and use the left overs to coat the shop floors and hav=e to throw away quite a bit of the unused so I imagine the shelf life can='t be more than a year. Anyway, I'm sure if you ask Winston, they will t= ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... HI Marty:I am looking into Dap Weldwood Plastic Resin. I know several guys who hav=eused it with good results. I believe it may be the stuff Glenn uses, JoeByrd could shed some light on this.I like the Borden Urac equivelent, but the shelf life is short. I have bu=ilta ton of rods since getting the Borden, and I have to throw out half aquart.Best regards, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... When I visited Winston a few years ago they were in the process ofgluing up strips. The glue they used was water based and smelled andlooked just like Elmers white glue. Glen told me it was similar.The last rod I recently glued up I used Titebond Extend water basedglue. I was very impressed with it. I didn't have to wear any gloves andit was very easy to work with. It seems to hold better than my usualUrac. Time will tell.Marty The Winston uses is non toxic-that is their shop policy, they will use nothin=g toxic in their cane rod making as it saves a whole bag of potential pro= n 5 gal. quantities. and has a shelf life (can't remember how long). = ----- Original Message ----- From:Downandacross R=od Company Sent: Friday,Oct= ho=rsesho@ptd.net; JNL123141@msn.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Wet, dry, too dry,another= ldwood Plastic Resin. I know several guys who haveused it with good r=esults. I believe it may be the stuff Glenn uses, JoeByrd could shed =some light on this.I like the Borden Urac equivelent, but the shelf l=ife is short. I have builta ton of rods since getting the Borden, and=I have to throw out half aquart.Best regards, Bob-----Or=iginal Message-----From: owner- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of noneSent: Friday,Octob= rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle....When I =visited Winston a few years ago they were in the process ofgluing up =strips. The glue they used was water based and smelled andlooked just= rod I recently glued up I used Titebond Extend water basedglue. I was=very impressed with it. I didn't have to wear any gloves andit was v=ery easy to work with. It seems to hold better than my usualUrac. Tim=e will tell.Marty from JNL123141@msn.com Fri Oct 12 08:58:57 2001 f9CDwu409186 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:58:56 -0500 Fri, 12 Oct 2001 06:58:58 -0700 Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... FILETIME=[0A33BCB0:01C15326] Thanks John,I knew if anyone can clear up this issue, you can. Hope to see you at SR= Thanks from JNL123141@msn.com Fri Oct 12 09:02:55 2001 f9CE2t409775 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:02:55 -0500 Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:02:53 -0700 Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... FILETIME=[960B9A50:01C15326] John,Thanks for the reply. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... John;I live in Durango,Co, which is way down in the bottom left hand cornerof the state. The humidity here is usually 20% or under, yeah, in themorning or when it's raining it can get higher, but when the sun is outit is dry,dry,dry. I use Epon, so it doesn't seem to affect me much,solvent based glues don't have the too dry problem. I used Urac for awhile, and it was fine with the ammonium chloride catalyst because therewas extra water in the mixture from it and it wet the strips ok., thepodwer catalyst it comes with was way too thivk and went off to fast. Sofar, in 5 years I haven't had any delamination problems with Epon.(knockon wood)John = ttom left hand cornerof the state. The humidity here is usually 20% o=r under, yeah, in themorning or when it's raining it can get higher, =but when the sun is outit is dry,dry,dry. I use Epon, so it doesn't s=eem to affect me much,solvent based glues don't have the too dryprob=lem. I used Urac for awhile, and it was fine with the ammonium chlori=de catalyst because therewas extra water in the mixture from it and i=t wet the strips ok., thepodwer catalyst it comes with was way too th=ivk and went off to fast. Sofar, in 5 years I haven't had any delamin=ation problems with Epon.(knockonwood)John from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Fri Oct 12 09:06:03 2001 f9CE62410242 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:06:02 -0500 JAA08615; HAA21260; f9CE5qm07882; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:05:53 -0700 Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good season wood expands across the grain almost 1/8" with the rise in humidityand shrinks with drying. Seasoned wood constantly expands and shrinksacrossthe grain. When building furniture this is a very big consideration Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Woodworkers know that once a piece of wood has been properly seasoned,thewood becomes essentially stable (always a relative term, apart from someform of impregnation), and whatever water it is exposed to subsequently caneasily be driven out again without affecting the integrity of the wood.Water can never make a seasoned piece of wood resemble its former "green"state. I from sats@gte.net Fri Oct 12 11:36:39 2001 f9CGac423410 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:36:38 -0500 ; id LAA28960287 Subject: Re: planing forms Take a look at my page, there are instructions on making adjustable wooden forms that I'm still using and a few others have made. If you take care making them they'll work just fine for a long time. They cost about $40 and take about 4hrs to make. Tony I've built two sets of wooden forms and put 1 x 1/4 in aluminum strips oneachside, top and bottom. I hold the aluminum in place with counter sunk screwssothey're below the surface of the form. Makes the forms fairly stable andkeepsme from digging into the forms surface. Aluminum is both easier and harder to work with. It'll fill a file in nothingflat, and will grab and chatter if you use a 60· tool. (Ask me how I knowthis...) ----------------------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/sats from homes-sold@home.com Fri Oct 12 11:44:13 2001 f9CGiC425134 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:44:12 -0500 femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:44:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Swelled butts /cedar strips Can someone send me pics off line, don't care about the size of the =file, of a rod section built this way? Like Tony, I think I know the =shape the cedar strips need to be but want to know how long the swell =has to be and if the handle ends up being 6 or 12 sided.Thanks in advanceDon Can someone send me pics off line, = the size of the file, of a rod section built this way? Like Tony, I = the shape the cedar strips need to be but want to know how long the = be and if the handle ends up being 6 or 12 sided.Thanks in advanceDon from oandc@email.msn.com Fri Oct 12 11:48:52 2001 f9CGmk425954 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:48:46 -0500 Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:48:02 -0700 Subject: Fw: Seasoning cane FILETIME=[A85C3450:01C1533D] It's just that process of the change of short chain to long chain =molecular structure over time that I'm interested in. That and what ever =else contributes to a more densely packed cellular structure. The what =that's occurring to produce those changes. I wonder if a controlled =amount of compression during heat treatment and maintained through =cooling might not produce favorable results. Anyone tried it? Wayne Subject: RE: Seasoning cane I suspect that like wood there are chemical changes going on such as = from short chain to long chain molecules, that is something that only =time does not heat. . ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 It's just that process of the change of= and what ever else contributes to a more densely packed cellular = amount of compression during heat treatment and maintained through = not produce favorable results. Anyone tried it? Wayne From:Coffey, Patrick W rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:29 PMSubject: RE: Seasoning cane short chain to long chain molecules, that is something that only time = heat. . Patrick W.Coffey =AOG Incident Repair Planning =Phone: 425-234-2901 = ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = 9/25/01 from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Oct 12 11:48:53 2001 f9CGmq425963 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:48:52 -0500 Subject: Re: List etiquette AMEN Harry. I hate when it takes 3 minutes to download an email and it says Thanks. hate when it takes 3 minutes to download an email and it saysThanks. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Oct 12 11:50:19 2001 f9CGoI426256 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:50:18 -0500 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:50:09 -0400 Subject: Fwd: FW: Taliban Press Release... This could be devastating to the economy of the USA This could bedevastating to the economy of the USA MAILINYH410-1012091643; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:16:43 -0400 12 Oct 2001 09:16:27 -0400 with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:12:09 -0500 Subject: Fwd: FW: Taliban Press Release... by hcri.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:04:23 -0500Subject: FW: Taliban Press Release... TMarkham@Memorialsb.org, jeffreyfloyd@hotmail.com, drgad@uswest.net, dhicks6481@hotmail.com, leonard8@peoplepc.com, LGillespie@Olingerindiana.com, ajelks@olingerindiana.com, CLewis@urc.state.in.us, KPope@HCRI.org, BPRICE@FSSA.STATE.IN.US, lschrecongost@olingerindiana.com, NShirling@Olingerindiana.com, Carla_Finney/olingerindiana.com@olingerindiana.com, Nancy_Fulton/olingerindiana.com@olingerindiana.com, Tonya_Green/olingerindiana.com@olingerindiana.com, Corie_Clifton/olingerindiana.com@olingerindiana.com, Charlie_Park/olingerindiana.com@olingerindiana.com, Pat_Raymer/olingerindiana.com@olingerindiana.com, Penni_Sigler/olingerindiana.com@olingerindiana.com, Lynn_Singleton/olingerindiana.com@olingerindiana.com ----- Forwarded by Diana Gadson/olingerindiana.com on 10/11/2001 02:07PM----- "GADSON, , , "RHYMER, O.com> JOYCE A." , "RUSSELL,JOLANDA" , "ALDRIDGE, SCOTT" 10/11/2001 ,"'Mary.D.Frazier@usdoj.gov'" 02:05 PM FW: Taliban Press Release... -----Original Message----- GADSON, MICHELLE Y.; GUIMOND, GLENN E.Subject: FW: Taliban Press Release... -----Original Message----- Subject: Taliban Press Release... Kabul, Afghanistan---September 27, 2001--A shocking development took place today as the rulingmembers of theTalibanheld a press conference threatening the United Statesif its territoryisinvaded. Immigration Czar Mohmammed Ali Momalukestated that the Afghanauthorities "would not hesitate for a moment" to cutoff the US supplyofconvenience store managers. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Oct 12 11:54:14 2001 f9CGsD426755 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:54:13 -0500 Subject: Ferrule order Guys, I got a greater response than anticipated so it is taking me a little longer to get things sorted out as to what I need of each size. Hopefully I will have it done this weekend.Bret Guys, I got a greater response than anticipated so it is taking me a littlelonger to get things sorted out as to what I need of each size. Bret from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 12 12:27:08 2001 f9CHR7428470 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:27:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Fw: Seasoning cane ACBC8884317B225C799649AA" --------------ACBC8884317B225C799649AA STAYPAK is modified wood that has been heated and compressed, could work Wayne Kifer wrote: It's just that process of the change of short chain to long chainmolecular structure over time that I'm interested in. That and whatever else contributes to a more densely packed cellular structure. Thewhat that's occurring to produce those changes. I wonder if acontrolled amount of compression during heat treatment and maintainedthrough cooling might not produce favorable results. Anyone triedit? Wayne----- Original Message ----- From: Coffey, Patrick W October 11, 2001 1:29 PMSubject: RE: Seasoning caneI suspect that like wood there are chemical changes going on such as from short chain to long chain molecules, that is something that onlytime does not heat. . Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date:9/25/01 --------------ACBC8884317B225C799649AA STAYPAK is modified wood that has been heated and compressed, could work Wayne Kifer wrote: It'sjust that process of the change of short chain to long chain molecularstructure over time that I'm interested in. That and what ever elsecontributesto a more densely packed cellular structure. The what that's occurringto produce those changes. I wonder if a controlled amount of compressionduring heat treatment and maintained through cooling might not produce ----- Original Message -----From: Coffey,Patrick W ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSent:Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:29 PMSubject: RE: Seasoningcane suspect that like wood there are chemical changes going on such as fromshort chain to long chain molecules, that is something that only time does Patrick W.CoffeyAOG Incident RepairPlanningPhone: 425-234-2901 425-237-0083M- M/C 61-79 ---Outgoing mail is certified VirusFree.Checked by AVG anti-virus system(http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / VirusDatabase:150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 --------------ACBC8884317B225C799649AA-- from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 12:33:35 2001 f9CHXZ428898 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:33:35 -0500 Oct 2001 10:33:38 PDT Subject: Re: Fw: Seasoning cane T., but bamboo is a grass not a wood, correct? timothy --- "T. Ackland" wrote: STAYPAK is modified wood that has been heated andcompressed, could work Wayne Kifer wrote: It's just that process of the change of short chain to long chain molecular structure over time that I'm interested in. That and what ever else contributes to a more densely packed cellular structure. The what that's occurring to produce those changes. I wonder if a controlled amount of compression during heat treatment and maintained through cooling might not produce favorable results. Anyone tried it? Wayne----- Original Message -----From: Coffey, Patrick W rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:29 PMSubject: RE: Seasoning cane I suspect that like wood there are chemical changes going on such as from short chain to long chain molecules, that is something that only time does not heat. . Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 12 13:06:31 2001 f9CI6U401265 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:06:30 -0500 RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Bill,whatever chemical actions take place when a piece of green cane dries out isneither here nor there. There must be a difference between living and dead (thelast week has left me less sure!).Would there be a difference in a strip of green cane and a strip of heattreatedcane soaked to the same moisture content? Why would we want to know?In the lumber industry "free" water is used to describe the water that is in afreshly cut tree but to some rodmakers it is something completely different.Terry WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Troy, I believe your explanation is correct. There are differences, to be sure,between a wood product and a grass product, but there is no difference astothe "bound" moisture and "free" moisture issue.The moisture that is driven out of the lignin structures does not return, asthose particular bundles of cells will have been irreversably altered. This is only ONE issue, however. Terry Ackland is also correct, I believe,when he points out that the cane that reaches us in our shops had alreadygone through considerable natural seasoning or "curing" (much as cutfirewood will have done over a period of a couple years prior to use). Justpossibly, our various techniques of heat-treating our cane only "complete"this process. The OTHER issue, however, is that of the "free" moisture. This can (andwill) re-enter the cane, because it occupies the spaces between and aroundthe "plasticized" lignin structures. While it is possible, under certaincircumstances, that enough of this moisture can be re-absorbed to make aflyrod feel almost as soggy as when the cane was actually "green," it is alsothe case that this form of moisture can be forced out once again-- leavingthe rod as good as it was after the heat-treating. Woodworkers know that once a piece of wood has been properly seasoned,thewood becomes essentially stable (always a relative term, apart from someform of impregnation), and whatever water it is exposed to subsequentlycaneasily be driven out again without affecting the integrity of the wood.Water can never make a seasoned piece of wood resemble its former"green"state. I recently bought about sixty pieces of ancient maple burl for reel seats.The stump was pulled from a mud-slide on Mt. Ranier a couple years ago,andwhen tested at the University of Oregon, it was found to be nearly 900yearsold. This wood, although naturally cured through the centuries, hasbecomethoroughly saturated with water, much as a sponge would have done. Whencutinto slabs and then into blocks, the wood air-dried very quickly, leavingthe essential integrity of the wood entirely intact. We can say foreverthat wood and bamboo are not the same, and while this is true in manyways,the differences do not apply to what has just been discussed. So, we do what we can to "cure" our bamboo. And we do what we can tobuildunder low humidity conditions. And we do what we can to ensure a goodfinish on the completed rod. And we do what we can to store our rods indryconditions. More than this we cannot do, knowing that the rod will foreverremain vulnerable to the natural processes called "breathing." There seems to be little reason for us to get crazy about all these issues,as the common sense we have already accumulated (whether scientificallyunderstood or not) seem to address the issues about as well as we aregoingto be able to do. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 7:48 PMSubject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good I could understand all this if you had gone to China with your rodmakingequipment and chopped down a culm and set to work on it. We are not dealing with green "wood" but cane that has been warehoused and shipped halfwayround the world and is not green by the time we get it.Lumber has to dried carefully because it splits and warps and themoisturecontent of dried lumber has to closly match that of the environment of where it will be used otherwise furniture will split or fall to pieces.I do not think there is any need to worry about free water, unless Demarest floats the cane up the Hudson! Miller, Troy wrote: I think the distinction between bound water and free water isimportant. An analogy. If you had a chemical solution (by definition, different from a suspension) of sugar in water, then boiled off the water phase, you would have a liquid sugar left in the bottom of the pan (assuming you are above the melting point of the sugar). If you allowed the sugar to solidify (by cooling), it would be dense and dehydrated. Now if you re-introduce water, the water would only be able to re-enter by dissolving the solid mass ofsugar. This is possible, because water dissolves sugar. Let's say you have a different mixture, a plastic with (covalently) bound water in the molecular structure. Now introduce heat to both melt theplastic and drive off the water molecules, so you are left with only theplastic molecules. Let this cool into a solid mass. Reintroduction ofwater to the system will not result in the plastic being dissolved by the water. The plastic is not "soluble" in water. How did the water get bound to the plastic molecules in the first place? It was a chemical reactionwhich required some energy to initiate. Once the reaction has taken place, then it is stable until something breaks the bonds. In this case, boiling it broke the bonds. I think that is what is going on with heat treating(but can offer no proof). We agree that we drive off a great deal of moisture from the little tubes, which can readily be re-absorbed by capillary action (what most people refer to as "wicking"). But we also drive off water that was bound to thelignins, which will never re-bond to the lignins. Rick Crenshaw has a great resource locally available -- Rick, could you ask her if this is the case? Your posts last year have given the clearest picture so far for me.... TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:46 PM Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good You guys are starting to sound like 13 year olds talking about sex. Before you argue about whether something is physical or chemical, shouldn'twefirst know how the folks who work in those fields define the twoterms?Shouldn't we note that chemistry is often described as one of the "physical sciences?" Shouldn't we also note that the last 50 years of research has demonstrated that the divisions between the sciences are moresemantic than empirical? Perhaps we could also note that the methods and effectsofremoving or inserting certain elements from molecules is a major fieldwithin chemistry (Such as M-D's example of removing the water fromperoxide), but so is the process of mixing and/or removing various molecules to create useful compounds without introducing what M-D would call a"chemical" change. Whether it's chemistry or physics (if that distinction matters) is irrelevant, especially in a conversation among a bunch of cane rod makers who are (for the most part) neither chemists norphysicists. Possibly an important question: M-D, do we in fact know that intercellular (or did you mean intracellular) moisture is removed that it cannot reenter? -----Original Message----- from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 12 13:11:15 2001 f9CIBE402486 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:11:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Fw: Seasoning cane It is also mainly cellulose and can be plasticized with heat just aswood. You flatten your nodes don't you? no difference timothy troester wrote: T., but bamboo is a grass not a wood, correct?timothy --- "T. Ackland" wrote: STAYPAK is modified wood that has been heated andcompressed, could work Wayne Kifer wrote: It's just that process of the change of short chain to long chain molecular structure over time that I'm interested in. That and what ever else contributes to a more densely packed cellular structure. The what that's occurring to produce those changes. I wonder if a controlled amount of compression during heat treatment and maintained through cooling might not produce favorable results. Anyone tried it? Wayne----- Original Message -----From: Coffey, Patrick W rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:29 PMSubject: RE: Seasoning cane I suspect that like wood there are chemical changes going on such as from short chain to long chain molecules, that is something that only time does not heat. . Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from oandc@email.msn.com Fri Oct 12 13:17:04 2001 f9CIH3404071 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:17:03 -0500 Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:16:22 -0700 Subject: Heat and compression treatment FILETIME=[FFA13EC0:01C15349] We know we can compress cane under heat. It's used successfully to =compress nodes. We also know that done properly the nodes do not expand =to their previous shape when exposed to moisture. Might this be due at =least in part to the plastizing and resolidification of the lignin =helping maintain the shape of the compressed cells. Complete speculation =on my part. It may not have anything to do with lignin. However, =something is occurring to maintain the nodal compression. Might not the =entire strip benefit from the same treatment. A tighter cellular =structure should result in a stronger strip that is less prone to alter =it's structure due to moisture. Yes? No?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 We know we can compress cane under = resolidification of the lignin helping maintain the shape of the = cells. Complete speculation on my part. It may not have anything to do = lignin. However, something is occurring to maintain the nodal = not the entire strip benefit from the same treatment. A tighter cellular = structure should result in a stronger strip that is less prone to alter = structure due to moisture. Yes? No?Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = Virus Database: 150 - Release Date:9/25/01 from jczimny@dol.net Fri Oct 12 14:25:23 2001 f9CJPM420543 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:25:22 -0500 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: Heat treating with ammonia Jerry,Try a bakery supply outfit. Bakers use it to make their biscuits brown.Much cheaper there.John Jerry Young wrote: Have some Granger strips ready for the oven. I have only been able tofind pharmacutical grade of ammonia carbonate that is $10 for a small 41/2 oz bottle. Has anybody tried a pan of the 23% ammonia liquid used bottle state there is no flamability hazard. Still searching for thatcarmel color. T.I.A. Jerry Young from jczimny@dol.net Fri Oct 12 14:30:08 2001 f9CJU7421703 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:30:07 -0500 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... Glen uses and acid catalyzed Poly vinyl acetate. Weldwood plastic resin isdriedurea formaldehyde resin in walnut flour and an acid salt - usually bariumchloride.John Z Downandacross Rod Company wrote: HI Marty:I am looking into Dap Weldwood Plastic Resin. I know several guys who haveused it with good results. I believe it may be the stuff Glenn uses, JoeByrd could shed some light on this.I like the Borden Urac equivelent, but the shelf life is short. I have builta ton of rods since getting the Borden, and I have to throw out half aquart.Best regards, Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 6:45 AM Subject: Re: Wet, dry, too dry, another wrinkle.... When I visited Winston a few years ago they were in the process ofgluing up strips. The glue they used was water based and smelled andlooked just like Elmers white glue. Glen told me it was similar.The last rod I recently glued up I used Titebond Extend water basedglue. I was very impressed with it. I didn't have to wear any gloves andit was very easy to work with. It seems to hold better than my usualUrac. Time will tell.Marty from lkoeser@ceva.net Fri Oct 12 14:57:31 2001 f9CJvU428089 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:57:30 -0500 Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:57:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Spar? or not to Spar? May I suggest J.E.Moser's Marineshield water based varnish. It's =available from Woddworker's Supply@ 1-800-645-9292. I've had good =results from same. Usual disclaimers. Subject: Spar? or not to Spar? I currently use Varathane 900 for a finish. Looks good easy to use. I =was contemplating on using a spar finish. Any recommendations? I am not =interested in hunting through old hardware store looking for it. =Something currently being produced that can be recommended with the % of=thinning would be appreciated. Adam Vigil May I suggest J.E.Moser's = based varnish. It's available from Woddworker's Supply@ 1-800-645-9292. = ----- Original Message ----- Vigil Sent: Thursday, October 11, = PMSubject: Spar? or not to =Spar? Looks good easy to use. I was contemplating on using a spar finish. = recommendations? I am not interested in hunting through old hardware = looking for it. Something currently being produced that can be = with the % of thinning would be appreciated. Adam =Vigil from rmoon@ida.net Fri Oct 12 15:18:49 2001 f9CKIm403309 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:18:48 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: Fw: Seasoning cane As many on the list know, I have made a number of Spiral Rods. Some two piece and a number of one piece, including a 7 1/2'. One of my rod making friends asked me about them and I told him what i knew and he made at least two. He complained to me that fairly soon after completion, the spiral began to relax. I have never had any problems that way even on some rods 4-5 years old. I have never heard Tom Smithwick mention any problem that way either. I am convinced that it is the heat treating that is responsible for the stability of those rods. When the bamboo is not sufficiently treated, deformation seems to be likely. I would think that those rods that have taken a set playing a fish, or leaning against the wall, or those that have turned wimpy might also suffer from the same problem. I have no proof of my contention, but I am convinced it is right. My feat treating is always uniform, and has been for years. Obviously according to my views it is sufficient.Anyway, i don't care as long as it works. You don't need to know how to make beer to appreciate a good brew.Ralph from hartzell@easystreet.com Fri Oct 12 16:46:34 2001 f9CLkY422718 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:46:34 -0500 f9CKKUv29204 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:20:30 -0700 f9CKKOZ11810; Subject: Re: Heat treating with ammonia Jerry,Try a bakery supply house. What they use it for is beyond me, but Icalled one here in Portland and they had some for sale. Maybe not the samepurity as the chemical houses get, but certainly OK for what we use it for. Ed Jerry Young wrote: Have some Granger strips ready for the oven. I have only been able tofind pharmacutical grade of ammonia carbonate that is $10 for a small 41/2 oz bottle. Has anybody tried a pan of the 23% ammonia liquid used bottle state there is no flamability hazard. Still searching for thatcarmel color. T.I.A. Jerry Young from stpete@netten.net Fri Oct 12 18:21:00 2001 f9CNKx400700 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:20:59 -0500 forged)) for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:26:40 -0500 Subject: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company which makesspecialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following toreport: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants whichare different but the long chains which make up the bulk of thefibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. Thisincludes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbonatoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and boundmoisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of thefree moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can crosslink to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually bycreating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibriummoisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to alower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle* Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils toform the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannotcomment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact thatlignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much likeplastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at anymultimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. from stpete@netten.net Fri Oct 12 18:41:01 2001 f9CNf0401169 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:41:00 -0500 forged)) Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:45:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Troy, Got to this post after I had already put the question to the wife. The post isup by now. She is a vice-president and chemical engineer in productdevelopmentat a cellulose specialty plant. Prior to her position in product development(which changes the fiber properties of the cellulose it processes to suit itscustomers) she was in the research and development department findingnew formsof cellulose for new commercial uses. Her division processes cellulose pulp from cotton linters (the very short fibers left over from the ginned cottonseeds). It is essentially pure cellulose and little lignin. But the otherplants owned by the company and where she has done much work, dealt withsoftwoods which contain much lignin like bamboo does. I'd rely on her trainingand her 24 years in the cellulose industry. If any of you have any specific questions, I'd be more than happy to put themtoher (regarding cellulose and lignins :-))Rick C. "Miller, Troy" wrote: I think the distinction between bound water and free water is important. Ananalogy. If you had a chemical solution (by definition, different from asuspension) of sugar in water, then boiled off the water phase, you wouldhave a liquid sugar left in the bottom of the pan (assuming you are abovethe melting point of the sugar). If you allowed the sugar to solidify (bycooling), it would be dense and dehydrated. Now if you re-introduce water,the water would only be able to re-enter by dissolving the solid mass ofsugar. This is possible, because water dissolves sugar. Let's say you have a different mixture, a plastic with (covalently) boundwater in the molecular structure. Now introduce heat to both melt theplastic and drive off the water molecules, so you are left with only theplastic molecules. Let this cool into a solid mass. Reintroduction ofwater to the system will not result in the plastic being dissolved by thewater. The plastic is not "soluble" in water. How did the water get boundto the plastic molecules in the first place? It was a chemical reactionwhich required some energy to initiate. Once the reaction has taken place,then it is stable until something breaks the bonds. In this case, boilingit broke the bonds. I think that is what is going on with heat treating(but can offer no proof).We agree that we drive off a great deal of moisture from the little tubes,which can readily be re-absorbed by capillary action (what most peoplereferto as "wicking"). But we also drive off water that was bound to thelignins, which will never re-bond to the lignins. Rick Crenshaw has a greatresource locally available -- Rick, could you ask her if this is the case?Your posts last year have given the clearest picture so far for me.... TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:46 PM Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good You guys are starting to sound like 13 year olds talking about sex. Beforeyou argue about whether something is physical or chemical, shouldn't wefirst know how the folks who work in those fields define the two terms?Shouldn't we note that chemistry is often described as one of the "physicalsciences?" Shouldn't we also note that the last 50 years of research hasdemonstrated that the divisions between the sciences are more semanticthanempirical? Perhaps we could also note that the methods and effects ofremoving or inserting certain elements from molecules is a major fieldwithin chemistry (Such as M-D's example of removing the water fromperoxide), but so is the process of mixing and/or removing variousmoleculesto create useful compounds without introducing what M-D would call a"chemical" change. Whether it's chemistry or physics (if that distinctionmatters) is irrelevant, especially in a conversation among a bunch of canerod makers who are (for the most part) neither chemists nor physicists. Possibly an important question: M-D, do we in fact know that intercellular(or did you mean intracellular) moisture is removed that it cannot reenter? -----Original Message----- from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Oct 12 18:45:45 2001 f9CNjj401513 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:45:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Fw: Seasoning cane In a message dated 10/12/1 8:19:19 PM, rmoon@ida.net writes: Ralph - I think you are probably right, but I also would be interested in what type of glue the man used. I have a feeling that glues like Titebond might not hold the spiral as well as Urac or Resourcinol. I see a consistent difference between Urac and resourcinol, with Urac always holding the spiral tighter, but I have never had a rod unwind once it was built. John Zimny suggests that titebond never fully cures, and I would personally not trust it. If the glue creeps the rod might well unwind. from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Fri Oct 12 18:50:51 2001 f9CNoo401813 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:50:50 -0500 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:41:03 -0500 Subject: RE: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Fantasic information, Mr. St. Pete. What I am reading is that there isbound water to be driven off from both the cellulose and the lignin glue.An irreversible process, for all practical purposes. And I am inferringthat, although free water can re-enter the bulk volume at any future point,that the modulus of elasticity has been forever increased at equivalentmoisture contents (when compared to cane that has been low-temp dried ofthefree water only). I don't think this comes as a suprise to most people, butit is good to have supporting evidence from an "expert witness". Thanks forthe insight, and looking forward to seeing you at SRG in a couple weeks! --TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company which makesspecialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following toreport: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants whichare different but the long chains which make up the bulk of thefibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. Thisincludes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbonatoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and boundmoisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of thefree moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can crosslink to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually bycreating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibriummoisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to alower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle* Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils toform the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannotcomment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact thatlignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much likeplastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at anymultimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. from stpete@netten.net Fri Oct 12 19:01:05 2001 f9D014402210 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 19:01:04 -0500 forged)) Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:06:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture You are correct, Sir! Fantasic information, Mr. St. Pete. What I am reading is that there isbound water to be driven off from both the cellulose and the lignin glue.An irreversible process, for all practical purposes. And I am inferringthat, although free water can re-enter the bulk volume at any future point,that the modulus of elasticity has been forever increased at equivalentmoisture contents (when compared to cane that has been low-temp driedof thefree water only). I don't think this comes as a suprise to most people, butit is good to have supporting evidence from an "expert witness". Thanksforthe insight, and looking forward to seeing you at SRG in a couple weeks! --TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 6:17 AM Subject: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company which makesspecialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following toreport: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants whichare different but the long chains which make up the bulk of thefibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. Thisincludes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbonatoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and boundmoisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of thefree moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can crosslink to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually bycreating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibriummoisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to alower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle* Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils toform the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannotcomment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact thatlignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much likeplastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at anymultimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 19:15:35 2001 f9D0FZ402969 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 19:15:35 -0500 Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:15:26 -0700 Subject: Re: Need some help FILETIME=[289EA420:01C1537C] Gentle heat is great, but then stick the ferrule in a cup of ice.Wait about 2 minutes, and it will be as if the epoxy were never there.Scary. Jeff Schaeffer PS: learned this from Jeff Wagner. from jojo@ipa.net Fri Oct 12 19:32:20 2001 f9D0WJ403667 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 19:32:19 -0500 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:32:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture And yet another helpful, enlightening post. Thanks, Rick. M-D Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company which makesspecialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following toreport: from robertgkope@home.com Fri Oct 12 19:32:32 2001 f9D0WV403682 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 19:32:31 -0500 femail31.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: Re: Need some help I found out the same thing recently. You don't even need the ice; just heatit up and let it cool down. It will slide right off. -- Robert Kope----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Need some help Gentle heat is great, but then stick the ferrule in a cup of ice.Wait about 2 minutes, and it will be as if the epoxy were never there.Scary. Jeff Schaeffer PS: learned this from Jeff Wagner. from rmoon@ida.net Fri Oct 12 19:51:25 2001 f9D0pO404721 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 19:51:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: Fw: Seasoning cane Tom I wondered about that myself, but i think one of my spirals was with Titebond II. The rest except for one epoxy were resorcinol. I'll ask my friend what he used and get a little more info as to time etc.Ralph from fquinchat@locl.net Fri Oct 12 20:48:42 2001 f9D1mf406841 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:48:41 -0500 Subject: Reversing strips I have some left over 43" strips with identical node spacing. I'd like touse them to make the butt section of a 7" 2 pc. What's wrong withreversingevery other strip butt for tip? This will give me a perfect 3 x 3 nodepattern. Comments please. Dennis Bertram from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 12 20:59:26 2001 f9D1xP407476 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:59:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Rick,There is no free moisture in the cane by the time we get itTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company which makesspecialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following toreport: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants whichare different but the long chains which make up the bulk of thefibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. Thisincludes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbonatoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and boundmoisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of thefree moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can crosslink to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually bycreating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibriummoisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to alower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle* Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils toform the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannotcomment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact thatlignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much likeplastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at anymultimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. from bob@downandacross.com Fri Oct 12 20:59:41 2001 f9D1xd407492 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:59:40 -0500 Subject: RE: Reversing strips Hi Dennis:I have done it twice before on hex rods (once for a quad), and it workedfine. I checked for a spine just in case, and could not find a real jump.The three-three should balance it out well. I would worry more if it was a9'. Go for it.Best regards, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Reversing strips I have some left over 43" strips with identical node spacing. I'd like touse them to make the butt section of a 7" 2 pc. What's wrong withreversingevery other strip butt for tip? This will give me a perfect 3 x 3 nodepattern. Comments please. Dennis Bertram from DNHayashida@aol.com Fri Oct 12 21:03:45 2001 f9D23j408038 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:03:45 -0500 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 22:03:41 -0400 Subject: 8 and 6 in 1 bamboo rod..... A project I am working on, and I am actually in the planing the cane phase,a 4 piece 8ft. rod that converts into a 6ft 3piece rod (24 inch sections).Before anybody says they have seen this type of rod already, so have I, andthat's the reason I am trying to make my own. The actions always seemed tobe a compromise. I think we can make a convertible rod that is a niceparabolic 8ft rod, and a nice fast action 6ft rod. What I am planning to do is make the 3rd ( from the tip) section the one thatgets taken out. One reason is due to guide placement. On the 8ft rod thehandle section doesn't have any guides on it, so in taking out the 3rdsection I won't have the stripper guide right next to the handle (as inmaking a replaceable handle and taking out the handle section), but intaking out the 3rd section the 6ft rod will have a snake guide as thestripper guide, and to do this the middle ferrule and the handle sectionferrule will have to be the same size. Alternatively, I could make a shortlittle adapter section only a couple inches long that fits between thehandle section and the 2nd section, but I think this approach will lookclunky on the 6ft rod, and I am trying to eliminate having extra pieces thatcan get lost. Okay, so in making the middle ferrule a little larger, and the handlesection ferrule a little smaller (the same size) I get a 8ft parabolic rod(stiff middle section, flexible handle section), and the 6ft rod willbenefit from the thinner handle section (shouldn't be too stiff with weightof the third section gone). On the down side - I will have to fit 1 male side ferrule in to 2 femaleside ferrules. I have never tried this before, and I don't know if ferrulesare machined close enough to be able to do this. What do you all think? Forsomething entirely different, let's turn our thoughts towards making abamboo rod..... A project I am working on, and I am actually in the planing the canephase,a 4 piece 8ft. rod that converts into a 6ft 3piece rod (24 inchsections).Before anybody says they have seen this type of rod already, so have I,andthat's the reason I am trying to make my own. The actions alwaysseemed tobe a compromise. I think we can make a convertible rod that is a niceparabolic 8ft rod, and a nice fast action 6ft rod. What I am planning to do is make the 3rd ( from the tip) section the onethatgets taken out. One reason is due to guide placement. On the 8ft rodthehandle section doesn't have any guides on it, so in taking out the 3rdsection I won't have the stripper guide right next to the handle (as inmaking a replaceable handle and taking out the handle section), but intaking out the 3rd section the 6ft rod will have a snake guide as thestripper guide, and to do this the middle ferrule and the handle sectionferrule will have to be the same size. Alternatively, I could make a shortlittle adapter section only a couple inches long that fits between thehandle section and the 2nd section, but I think this approach will lookclunky on the 6ft rod, and I am trying to eliminate having extra piecesthatcan get lost. Okay, so in making the middle ferrule a little larger, and the handlesection ferrule a little smaller (the same size) I get a 8ft parabolic rod(stiff middle section, flexible handle section), and the 6ft rod willbenefit from the thinner handle section (shouldn't be too stiff withweightof the third section gone). On the down side - I will have to fit 1 male side ferrule in to 2 femaleside ferrules. I have never tried this before, and I don't know if ferrules What do you all think? from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 21:48:56 2001 f9D2mt410138 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:48:55 -0500 Oct 2001 19:48:59 PDT Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture all right guys! in the words of my dad..."a manconvinced against his will is of the same opinionstill! --- "T. Ackland" wrote: Rick,There is no free moisture in the cane by the time weget itTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company which makes specialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following to report: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants which are different but the long chains which make up the bulk of the fibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. This includes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbon atoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units * There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit * Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and bound moisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of the free moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can cross link to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually by creating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibrium moisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to a lower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose * Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle * Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils to form the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannot comment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact that lignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much like plastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at any multimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 21:51:26 2001 f9D2pP410442 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:51:25 -0500 Oct 2001 19:51:29 PDT Subject: Re: Reversing strips i've done it. it works. it was one of the fewvirtually spineless rods i ever built. timothy --- Dennis Bertram wrote: I have some left over 43" strips with identical nodespacing. I'd like touse them to make the butt section of a 7" 2 pc. What's wrong with reversingevery other strip butt for tip? This will give me aperfect 3 x 3 nodepattern. Comments please. Dennis Bertram ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Oct 12 21:53:03 2001 f9D2r2410701 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:53:02 -0500 (authenticated) Fri, 12 Oct 2001 19:52:43 -0700 Subject: Re: 8 and 6 in 1 --------------2F89AD41FD08E552FB20E292 DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: On the down side - I will have to fit 1 male side ferrulein to 2 femaleside ferrules. I have never tried this before, and I don'tknow if ferrulesare machined close enough to be able to do this. Darryl, Might be a good idea to either purchase pre-fittedferrules or fit them yourself before installation. Thatmight save removing a ferrule or two down the road. Soundslike an interesting idea. Please keep us informed on itsprogress. Harry-- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------2F89AD41FD08E552FB20E292 DNHayashida@aol.com wrote:Onthe down side - I will have to fit 1 male side ferrule in to 2femalesideferrules. I have never tried this before, and I don't know ifferrulesare this.Darryl, -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------2F89AD41FD08E552FB20E292-- from stpete@netten.net Fri Oct 12 21:59:22 2001 f9D2xL411243 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:59:21 -0500 forged)) Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:04:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Terry, If you refuse to understand I will not try to convince you otherwise. Rick C. "T. Ackland" wrote: Rick,There is no free moisture in the cane by the time we get itTerry from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Oct 12 22:08:47 2001 f9D38k411778 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 22:08:46 -0500 f9D38dT27436; Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Terry, You are right. There is no free moisture in cane. By the time I get it Ipaid full price. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture There is no free moisture in the cane by the time we get it Terry from martinrjensen@home.com Fri Oct 12 22:52:17 2001 f9D3qG413319 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 22:52:16 -0500 femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:52:10 -0700 Subject: RE: FW: Taliban Press Release... I'm sorry, I have to say that this is entirely inappropriate for thisgroup. (But it was pretty funny!) I guess I have a long way to go to be"politically correct" (thank God!) Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Fwd: FW: Taliban Press Release... This could be devastating to the economy of the USA Message sorry, I have to say that this is entirely inappropriate for this group. = was pretty funny!) I guess I have a long way to go to be "politically = (thank God!) Jensen -----Original Message----- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = On Behalf Of Grhghlndr@aol.comSent: Friday,October = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: = Taliban Press Release...This could be devastating to the economy of the from saweiss@flash.net Fri Oct 12 23:10:14 2001 f9D4AE414039 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:10:14 -0500 f9D4A7k145414; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:10:07 -0400 Subject: Re: winston taper Organization: Prodigy Internet Sorry, I forgot to mention that this is a 2-piece rod and these measurementshave had.006" subtracted for varnish thickness.Steve Hi Steven. Is that measured over varnish or did you already allow for it? Marty "Steven A. Weiss" wrote: Here is a taper for a Winston 7'6" 4-wt Hollobuilt. It was made for Norm Thompson in 1965. I made this rod for a friend who has the original anddoesn't want to fish with it. I did not hollow the butt, and it's only 1/4 oz. heavier than the Winston. A nice smooth medium action that easily casts a DT4 out to 50-60 ft. My friend is a very active flyfisher and has at least 100 trips on the rod, probably with over a thousand fish caught on it. He thinks that it casts better than the original. This may be because not being hollow, it has a little faster action. Points Dimensions FormPoint 1 .05800 .03000Point 5 .07530 .03865Point 10 .09100 .04650Point 15 .10500 .05350Point 20 .12100 .06150Point 25 .13550 .06875Point 30 .15400 .07800Point 35 .16300 .08250Point 40 .17800 .09000Point 45 .18700 .09450Point 50 .19900 .10050Point 55 .20500 .10350Point 60 .21950 .11075Point 65 .23550 .11875Point 70 .24700 .12450Point 75 .25900 .13050Point 80 .28600 .14400Point 85 .28600 .14400Point 90 .28600 .14400Guide spacing:3 15/16, 7 13/16, 12 5/8, 18 3/8, 24 1/4, 30 1/4, 36 3/8, 43, 509/16, 59 (9 + stripper).The original has a reverse half wells grip that flows right into the cork reel seat and has a down lock ring and cap.Steve My favorite rod maker among the 'plastic' rods by far is Winston. I own a 3wt LT 5pc rod and really like how it flexes well into the lower sections. I have never had the oportunity to play with the bamboo rods that this fine company makes. Does anyone on the list have experience withWinston bamboo? Does anyone have a taper for a 3,4 or 5 wt rod they would share with me? from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Fri Oct 12 23:16:30 2001 [66.133.130.238] (may be forged)) f9D4GU414460 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:16:30 -0500 sender ) Subject: Re: 8 and 6 in 1 You could always mount the ferrule "backwards". I have tried swapping =tips between rods on ferrules that I made and they fit OK. But I'm not =sure if I got lucky, I have two 6'6" almost done, I will try those and =see if I can interchange them and will let you know. TomOn the down side - I will have to fit 1 male side ferrule in to 2 = side ferrules. I have never tried this before, and I don't know if = You could always mount the ferrule = try those and see if I can interchange them and will let you =know. TomOn the downside = to fit 1 male side ferrule in to 2 female side ferrules. I have = tried this before, and I don't know if ferrules are machined close = from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Oct 13 05:02:04 2001 f9DA22419643 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 05:02:02 - Subject: Re: planing forms f9DA24419644 Wouldn't the Al make the plane grab?I found the wood alone works perfectly well because you're not really planing it's surface any more than you do a steel set and the more the form is used the better the surface, sort of like mowing a lawn actually. Tony At 12:30 PM 10/12/01 -0400, Terry Kirkpatrick wrote: Take a look at my page, there are instructions on making adjustablewoodenforms that I'm still using and a few others have made. If you take caremaking them they'll work just fine for a long time. They cost about $40andtake about 4hrs to make. Tony I've built two sets of wooden forms and put 1 x 1/4 in aluminum strips oneachside, top and bottom. I hold the aluminum in place with counter sunk screws sothey're below the surface of the form. Makes the forms fairly stable and keepsme from digging into the forms surface. Aluminum is both easier and harder to work with. It'll fill a file in nothingflat, and will grab and chatter if you use a 60· tool. (Ask me how I knowthis...) ----------------------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/sats /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Oct 13 05:02:09 2001 f9DA27419648 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 05:02:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu I'm pretty certain this will go around and round ad nauseam and while it's still fun lets make some points that are given so far as heating it is concerned.A) For better or worse for the bamboo heating it does make it more resilient at least for a while, most think this is a long time but some not so.B) There has to be some chemical alteration of the bamboo during the heating stage for no other reason than you can see and smell the oils being driven out.C) Heating always alters biological cells which when you heat them go somewhere in the range of nonheated to burning depending when you stop applying the heat.D) THere is plenty of evidence that once bamboo has been heated even if it gets wet and useless upon drying it becomes resilient again.E) Heat treated bamboo looks nicer than non heat treated to my eyesanyhow. When Bill Harm wrote the below:I believe your explanation is correct. There are differences, to be sure,between a wood product and a grass product, but there is no difference astothe "bound" moisture and "free" moisture issue.The moisture that is driven out of the lignin structures does not return, asthose particular bundles of cells will have been irreversably altered. He hit right on it. I think when bamboo bends it does so like any other material in that the bamboo on the inside of the bend is compressed while on the out is stretched.I wonder if the fact the moisture (lubricant??) between the lignin structure is never returned is where the difference is?I've mentioned before on list when wood is streamed for bending upon the member becoming dry it's dryer than the other members which have notbeen steamed. I think this is the stream drying the wood. While the wood is most certainly wet when it's being bent the stream disappears pretty fast and you have a dry piece of wood in no time at all. If the wood breaks or hardens up through drying and you discard it you can't help noticing there is a change in almost every aspect of the wood.It never works to try to stream the wood again because it wont become pliable again but will break, normally in a very long angled break rather than the short break wood normally breaks in. from what I can see you can wet the wood surface and also right through but something has happened structurally as well purely due to heat.Bamboo may be different in this but I'm not so sure because it seems to be what that ever the long running structure of the bamboo or what holds it together is that has altered. Tony At 02:07 PM 10/12/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Bill,whatever chemical actions take place when a piece of green cane dries outisneither here nor there. There must be a difference between living and dead ( thelast week has left me less sure!).Would there be a difference in a strip of green cane and a strip of heat treatedcane soaked to the same moisture content? Why would we want to know?In the lumber industry "free" water is used to describe the water that is ina freshly cut tree but to some rodmakers it is something completely different.Terry WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Troy, I believe your explanation is correct. There are differences, to be sure,between a wood product and a grass product, but there is no difference as to the "bound" moisture and "free" moisture issue.The moisture that is driven out of the lignin structures does not return, as those particular bundles of cells will have been irreversably altered. This is only ONE issue, however. Terry Ackland is also correct, I believe,when he points out that the cane that reaches us in our shops hadalreadygone through considerable natural seasoning or "curing" (much as cutfirewood will have done over a period of a couple years prior to use). Just possibly, our various techniques of heat-treating our cane only"complete"this process. The OTHER issue, however, is that of the "free" moisture. This can (andwill) re-enter the cane, because it occupies the spaces between andaroundthe "plasticized" lignin structures. While it is possible, under certaincircumstances, that enough of this moisture can be re-absorbed to make a fly rod feel almost as soggy as when the cane was actually "green," it isalsothe case that this form of moisture can be forced out once again--leavingthe rod as good as it was after the heat-treating. Woodworkers know that once a piece of wood has been properlyseasoned, thewood becomes essentially stable (always a relative term, apart fromsomeform of impregnation), and whatever water it is exposed to subsequentlycaneasily be driven out again without affecting the integrity of the wood.Water can never make a seasoned piece of wood resemble its former"green"state. I recently bought about sixty pieces of ancient maple burl for reel seats.The stump was pulled from a mud-slide on Mt. Ranier a couple years ago,andwhen tested at the University of Oregon, it was found to be nearly 900 years old. This wood, although naturally cured through the centuries, hasbecomethoroughly saturated with water, much as a sponge would have done. When cut into slabs and then into blocks, the wood air-dried very quickly, leavingthe essential integrity of the wood entirely intact. We can say foreverthat wood and bamboo are not the same, and while this is true in manyways,the differences do not apply to what has just been discussed. So, we do what we can to "cure" our bamboo. And we do what we can tobuildunder low humidity conditions. And we do what we can to ensure a goodfinish on the completed rod. And we do what we can to store our rods in dry conditions. More than this we cannot do, knowing that the rod willforeverremain vulnerable to the natural processes called "breathing." There seems to be little reason for us to get crazy about all theseissues,as the common sense we have already accumulated (whetherscientificallyunderstood or not) seem to address the issues about as well as we aregoingto be able to do. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 7:48 PMSubject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good I could understand all this if you had gone to China with your rodmakingequipment and chopped down a culm and set to work on it. We are not dealing with green "wood" but cane that has been warehoused and shipped halfwayround the world and is not green by the time we get it.Lumber has to dried carefully because it splits and warps and the moisture content of dried lumber has to closly match that of the environment of where it will be used otherwise furniture will split or fall to pieces.I do not think there is any need to worry about free water, unless Demarest floats the cane up the Hudson! Miller, Troy wrote: I think the distinction between bound water and free water is important. An analogy. If you had a chemical solution (by definition, different from a suspension) of sugar in water, then boiled off the water phase, you would have a liquid sugar left in the bottom of the pan (assuming you are above the melting point of the sugar). If you allowed the sugar to solidify (by cooling), it would be dense and dehydrated. Now if you re-introduce water, the water would only be able to re-enter by dissolving the solid mass of sugar. This is possible, because water dissolves sugar. Let's say you have a different mixture, a plastic with (covalently) bound water in the molecular structure. Now introduce heat to both melttheplastic and drive off the water molecules, so you are left with only the plastic molecules. Let this cool into a solid mass. Reintroduction ofwater to the system will not result in the plastic being dissolved by the water. The plastic is not "soluble" in water. How did the water get bound to the plastic molecules in the first place? It was a chemical reaction which required some energy to initiate. Once the reaction has taken place, then it is stable until something breaks the bonds. In this case, boiling it broke the bonds. I think that is what is going on with heat treating(but can offer no proof). We agree that we drive off a great deal of moisture from the little tubes, which can readily be re-absorbed by capillary action (what mostpeople refer to as "wicking"). But we also drive off water that was bound to thelignins, which will never re-bond to the lignins. Rick Crenshaw has a great resource locally available -- Rick, could you ask her if this is the case? Your posts last year have given the clearest picture so far for me.... TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:46 PM Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good You guys are starting to sound like 13 year olds talking about sex. Before you argue about whether something is physical or chemical, shouldn'twefirst know how the folks who work in those fields define the twoterms?Shouldn't we note that chemistry is often described as one of the "physical sciences?" Shouldn't we also note that the last 50 years of research has demonstrated that the divisions between the sciences are moresemantic than empirical? Perhaps we could also note that the methods and effectsofremoving or inserting certain elements from molecules is a majorfieldwithin chemistry (Such as M-D's example of removing the water fromperoxide), but so is the process of mixing and/or removing various molecules to create useful compounds without introducing what M-D would call a"chemical" change. Whether it's chemistry or physics (if that distinction matters) is irrelevant, especially in a conversation among a bunch of cane rod makers who are (for the most part) neither chemists norphysicists. Possibly an important question: M-D, do we in fact know that intercellular (or did you mean intracellular) moisture is removed that it cannot reenter? -----Original Message----- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Oct 13 05:02:11 2001 f9DA29419651 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 05:02:09 - Subject: Re: Heavy Traffic Not at all Bill, it's spring here and my son and I just got back from a couple of days fishing a 15 acre dam stocked with about 5,000 rainbows yearlings 18 months back.He caught 5 and was broken off twice and lost 2.I did ok too.Looking forward to summer. Tony At 01:30 PM 10/11/01 -0400, William R. Fink wrote: To the ListTrying to cope with the traffic lately suggests that the fishing season must be winding down. But in both hemispheres?? Bill /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Oct 13 05:34:52 2001 f9DAYo420159 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 05:34:50 - rodmakers Subject: RE: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Yeah, exactly what I meant to say [:-)] Tony Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company which makesspecialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following toreport: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants whichare different but the long chains which make up the bulk of thefibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. Thisincludes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbonatoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and boundmoisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of thefree moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can crosslink to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually bycreating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibriummoisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to alower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle* Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils toform the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannotcomment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact thatlignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much likeplastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at anymultimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Oct 13 07:13:56 2001 f9DCDt420866 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 07:13:55 -0500 RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good Rick,I fail to see the practical similarities between pulp making and rodmakingunless westart to make our own shipping tubes.Hey, now thats an idea?Terry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Troy, Got to this post after I had already put the question to the wife. The postisup by now. She is a vice-president and chemical engineer in productdevelopmentat a cellulose specialty plant. Prior to her position in product development(which changes the fiber properties of the cellulose it processes to suit itscustomers) she was in the research and development department findingnew formsof cellulose for new commercial uses. Her division processes cellulose pulp from cotton linters (the very short fibers left over from the ginned cottonseeds). It is essentially pure cellulose and little lignin. But the otherplants owned by the company and where she has done much work, dealtwithsoftwoods which contain much lignin like bamboo does. I'd rely on hertrainingand her 24 years in the cellulose industry. If any of you have any specific questions, I'd be more than happy to putthem toher (regarding cellulose and lignins :-))Rick C. "Miller, Troy" wrote: I think the distinction between bound water and free water is important. Ananalogy. If you had a chemical solution (by definition, different from asuspension) of sugar in water, then boiled off the water phase, you wouldhave a liquid sugar left in the bottom of the pan (assuming you are abovethe melting point of the sugar). If you allowed the sugar to solidify (bycooling), it would be dense and dehydrated. Now if you re- introducewater,the water would only be able to re-enter by dissolving the solid mass ofsugar. This is possible, because water dissolves sugar. Let's say you have a different mixture, a plastic with (covalently) boundwater in the molecular structure. Now introduce heat to both melt theplastic and drive off the water molecules, so you are left with only theplastic molecules. Let this cool into a solid mass. Reintroduction ofwater to the system will not result in the plastic being dissolved by thewater. The plastic is not "soluble" in water. How did the water get boundto the plastic molecules in the first place? It was a chemical reactionwhich required some energy to initiate. Once the reaction has takenplace,then it is stable until something breaks the bonds. In this case, boilingit broke the bonds. I think that is what is going on with heat treating(but can offer no proof).We agree that we drive off a great deal of moisture from the littletubes,which can readily be re-absorbed by capillary action (what most peoplereferto as "wicking"). But we also drive off water that was bound to thelignins, which will never re-bond to the lignins. Rick Crenshaw has a greatresource locally available -- Rick, could you ask her if this is the case?Your posts last year have given the clearest picture so far for me.... TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:46 PM Subject: RE: Wet Bad, Dry Good You guys are starting to sound like 13 year olds talking about sex. Beforeyou argue about whether something is physical or chemical, shouldn't wefirst know how the folks who work in those fields define the two terms?Shouldn't we note that chemistry is often described as one of the"physicalsciences?" Shouldn't we also note that the last 50 years of researchhasdemonstrated that the divisions between the sciences are moresemantic thanempirical? Perhaps we could also note that the methods and effects ofremoving or inserting certain elements from molecules is a major fieldwithin chemistry (Such as M-D's example of removing the water fromperoxide), but so is the process of mixing and/or removing variousmoleculesto create useful compounds without introducing what M-D would call a"chemical" change. Whether it's chemistry or physics (if that distinctionmatters) is irrelevant, especially in a conversation among a bunch ofcanerod makers who are (for the most part) neither chemists nor physicists. Possibly an important question: M-D, do we in fact know thatintercellular(or did you mean intracellular) moisture is removed that it cannotreenter? -----Original Message----- from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Oct 13 07:44:03 2001 f9DCi1421029 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 07:44:01 - Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Rick,I think you are right, just thinking about infinity makes my brain hurt!Terry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Terry, If you refuse to understand I will not try to convince you otherwise. Rick C. "T. Ackland" wrote: Rick,There is no free moisture in the cane by the time we get itTerry from Lazybee45@aol.com Sat Oct 13 07:47:41 2001 f9DCle421053 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 07:47:40 - Subject: Re: FW: Taliban Press Release... rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 10/12/01 10:52:59 PM Central Daylight Time, martinrjensen@home.com writes: I am sorry too! But HUMOR is ALWAYS appropriate! at least to me!mark from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Oct 13 08:23:25 2001 f9DDNO421487 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:23:24 - Subject: Re: 8 and 6 in 1 Darryl - An interesting project. I assume you are looking for a dual purpose backpack rod, with the 8 footer for big rivers and lakes, and the fast 6 footer for brushy little streams. If I were trying it, I would have made any taper compromises in favor of the 8 footer, and let the 6 footer take careof itself. My theory being that a more or less fast butt on an already fast rod rather have the 8 footer be as good as it can be.I would also forget about an adapter. Ferrules do get stuck, and if the adapter got stuck in the field, you might have a tough time getting it free.I would use the built up ferrule station scheme that a some of us have used to mount oversize round ferrules on quads. Basically you glue cane or hardwood strips to the blank, about 1/4" longer than the ferrule depth. Turn the ferrule station round, and mount the ferrule, then carve and sand the stubs of the strips to get a smooth joint from the blank to the ferrule end. Once covered with thread, this is not all that bad looking. I would definitely use a truncated ferrule to keep weight to a minimum. Use a strong glue for the strips, there is stress involved in this area.As to fitting the ferrules, my choice for an "out of the box" attempt would be REC's uniferrules, which are machined to tight tolerances. In fact, however I doubt that you need to do this blind. If you contact Dan Lanier at REC, Baily Woods at CSE, or Russ Gooding at Goldenwitch, and explain whatyou want to do, I would guess any of them would take a few minutes to select a matched pair for you. My apologies if I left anyone out, these are just the guys that come to mind. from Vtbamboo@cs.com Sat Oct 13 08:32:28 2001 f9DDWS421545 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:32:28 - for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:32:20 - Subject: Stainless Steel / Nickel Silver I repaired a tip on a friends old South Bend Double Built rod which he recently inherited. The reel seat also needed repair & being a machinist he said he would do it himself. He copied the original exactly, only he substituted stainless steel for nickel silver. I was surprised to see how attractive it was, just like polished N.S. The cost per foot for a 1" round was around $7. Does anybody have any experience with S.S?Could Ferrules be made out of it? I forget the alloy number he said it was, but he did say it was non hardenable, and machines like brass.Any info is appreciated. Thanks, Vinnie also needed repair & being a machinist he said he would do it himself. Hecopied the original exactly, only he substituted stainless steel for nickel N.S. The cost per foot for a 1" round was around $7. Does anybody have anyexperience with S.S?Could Ferrules be made out of it? I forget the alloy number he said it Thanks, from stpete@netten.net Sat Oct 13 09:29:21 2001 f9DETK421851 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:29:20 - forged)) Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:35:04 -0500 rodmakers Subject: One more time in layman's terms Patrick, Let me break my post down into layman's terms. According to welldocumented anduniversally accepted cellulose science, air drying alone will not produce, inany significant quantity, the changes to molecular structure which cause thepermanent changes to the properties of cellulose. First let's discuss 'dry'.In our world there is always some moisture in the air and in most organicsubstances to some degree and in some form. Colorado 'dry' still containsambient moisture (humidity is the measure of moisture in the air - I don'tknowof any place on earth where that measures zero). Even well aged andcarefullydried wood and cane contain some moisture. You can drive off all themoisture pulpindustry. In order for the hydroxyl groups in cellulose to be driven off (the boundwater)the molecular bonds must be excited (heat applied) enough to break, reformintowater molecules which are driven off as water vapor, and the resulting 'open'bonds of the cellulose molecule chain reattach (crosslink) with other 'open'bonds along similarly affected chains. (In my post these chains are calledpolymers. All cellulose is long chains of glucose bonded together to formtheselong chains.) The resulting 'crosslinked' polymers (cellulose chains which are nowchemically'tied' together) are stiffer (just like nailing 2x4's together) although theyare more brittle. On top of all this, the lignin in the bamboo (the 'volatile oils', the 'glue',the 'stuff' holding these long cellulose fibers together) can lose bound water,too and crosslink causing them to become more congealed or plasticized. It,too, once changed, will prevent moisture from reentering the structure. Now all of this goes on in degrees, so that depending on heat treatment,different percentages of the cellulose fibers crosslink and differentpercentages of the lignin plasticize. Additionally, there is always some freespace which will allow the capillary action to attract ambient moisture fromtheair or more drastically from being submerged in water. But understand thatonceheat treated to the point of molecular change, it will never - ever- reabsorbasmuch as it would from 'never dried' cellulose. This is my final attempt to explain this phenomenon since I am ill qualified toargue the finer points. Suffice it to say that I consider my wife an expertandthat this information is hardly cutting edge cellulose science, but ratherbasicinformation in the wood and pulp industries. I may have simplified theexplanation to a fault and some chemists, engineers, or other experts mayfindtechnical and linguistic inaccuracies in my wording. But I stand by the basicmechanics of what transpires during the heating of cellulose since I haveenoughchemistry and physical science background to understand the process and itmakesperfectly logical sense to me. If anyone has a specific question which I can put to my spouse, I will be gladto do so and respond as best I can. Don't ask about temperatures and times,because the medium in which the cellulose is found (bamboo - lignins, oils,etc.) is critical to the process and there is no standard that my wife knowsof wellequipped lab with electron microscopes, Instron tensile and tear strengthtesters, gas chromatographs, etc. would be able to determine optimumtreatingregimines for preconditioned bamboo. It would only be a matter ofdetermination, money, and time. One interesting final point. All pulp processing plants begin by conditioningthe material to a set moisture level and 'chip' size. This way they knowwherethey are starting in the production process. Exp. they may chip the wood to1/8" thick X 3/4" X 3/4" pieces, then soak them for several hours to makesurethey are at a certain moisture level. We should have a routine storage andconditioning phase to 'standardize' our bamboo to match our heat treatingregimine - whatever that may be. Rick C. having read this two or three times, at least, there is nothing in thesestatements that says heat treating differs from air drying (low temptdrying) or that heat drying, dries out the bound moisture. They bothchangethe modulus of elasticity and like wood form longer or double chainmolecules, so I guess it's like terry said what ever works for you is thebest method for you. Patrick W. Coffey from robertgkope@home.com Sat Oct 13 10:25:42 2001 f9DFPf422246 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:25:41 - femail34.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: Re: 8 and 6 in 1 I don't expect a problem. You can do some fitting of the females if =they are different. In fitting the females you would work on the looser =of the two instead of the tighter. You can tighten a loose female in a =couple of ways (you could always buy her a couple of drinks ;^). I =think most people chuck it in a lathe and tighten the chuck to slightly =deform the ferrule. I prefer to tap it with a lead ingot while rotating =it, using another lead ingot as an anvil. If you just work slowly and =check your progress frequently, you can tighten a loose ferrule to a =perfect fit without any marring at all. -- Robert Kope On the down side - I will have to fit 1 male side ferrule in to 2 female = side ferrules. I have never tried this before, and I don't know if = Idon't = progress frequently, you can tighten a loose ferrule to a perfect fit = any marring at all. -- Robert =Kope On the down side - I will have to fit 1 male side ferrule in to = female side ferrules. I have never tried this before, and I don't = do you all think? from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Sat Oct 13 10:39:53 2001 f9DFdq422349 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:39:52 - IAA02250 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:35:55 - KAA17047 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:39:54 - f9DFdrm16202 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:39:53 - (5.5.2650.21) id ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:39:53 -0700 Subject: china The company is sending me to Guangzhou (canton) china this coming FridayandI was wondering if anybody knows how far away it is from where our bambooisgrown. I'd like to go have a look for myself. Anybody have anything theywould like me to check on in relation to rod building let me know and if Ihave time I will. I'm going to be there for about 2 weeks. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from bamboorods@saber.net Sat Oct 13 10:44:47 2001 f9DFik422387 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:44:46 - for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:44:48 - Subject: Western Gathering: Bamboo? Jim Reams is going to the Bishop Gathering. He has bamboo for $9.95 a =culm. If there is any interest, I will stop by his house on the way =down, and pick up culms as needed. Sorry for the commercial. Contact =me off- list.Chris Jim Reams is going to the interest, I will stop by his house on the way down, and pick up culms as = off-list.Chris from Troutgetter@aol.com Sat Oct 13 11:00:24 2001 f9DG0N422503 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:00:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Bluing forms? Hi guys! I don't know about everyone else, but, when not in use I store my forms in a capped PVC tube with a nice sized packet of silica gel inside. No rust has ever formed while stored in the tube. Any rust that might have a chance to start when on the bench is usually very easily cleaned off by the "Harry Boyd" method of light sand paper. (I just love the way we give names to all these techniques!) I have always been a little concerned about putting any kind of oil coating on my forms as I was afraid that the bare cane might absorb a little and interfere with gluing process.Best regards,Mike Hi guys! I don't know about everyone else, but, when not in use I store my formsin a capped PVC tube with a nice sized packet of silica gel inside. No rust hasever formed while stored in the tube. Any rust that might have a chance tostart when on the bench is usually very easily cleaned off by the "HarryBoyd" method of light sand paper. (I just love the way we give names to allthese techniques!) I have always been a little concerned about putting anykind of oil coating on my forms as I was afraid that the bare cane mightabsorb a little and interfere with gluing process.Best regards,Mike from JNL123141@msn.com Sat Oct 13 11:45:46 2001 f9DGjj422867 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:45:45 - Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:45:40 -0700 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: Reversing strips FILETIME=[7DD87800:01C15406] ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Reversing strips Do it! There is nothing wrong with that method of node spacing. I will =be a very old man before anyone can convince me it can have an effect on =a rod. ----- Original Message ----- From: timothy troester Sent:Fri= day, October 12, 2001 10:52 PM T=  = t= can convince me it can have an effect on arod.= from boyko@peoplepc.com Sat Oct 13 12:35:01 2001 f9DHZ0423276 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:35:00 - 0700 oemcomputer) (4.54.193.126) -0700 Subject: joining rodmakers Hi" not sure who is going to read this but need help in joining the =rodmakers list. My name is Lew D. Boyko and my e-mail is =boyko@peoplepc.com I have tried several time to join but seem to get =bumped off for some reason. just want to join so please put my e-mail =name on the list. thnanks Lew Hi" not sure who is going to read this = Lew from harms1@pa.net Sat Oct 13 14:06:41 2001 f9DJ6e424922 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:06:40 - Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Terry, No. I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. The free moisture within ourcane will forever be seeking whatever the average ambient humidity may be.We will drive this form of moisture out, temporarily, with our heattreating, but that moisture will forever be trying to return. It is by removing bound moisture (during the same heat treating process)that we obtain the only real control we may have over the ultimate"stiffness" of our cane. This form of moisture cannot return, because thecell structures where it used to "live" will have been altered-- leavingplasticized bundles of lignens, almost devoid of moisture, behind. Free moisture is called "free" because it remains free to enter and to exit(and it always will). On the other hand, the cellular spaces that used tobe occupied by bound moisture can no longer be occupied. Whether bambooorwood, and whether accomplished quickly with heat treating or slowly byaging, this process of driving off the bound water is called "curing," or"seasoning," or "drying." The process does not refer to the amount of freewater that is removed (this always leaves first, and always re- enterslater). It refers, instead, to the bound water that has been driven out andhas left more-or-less permanently altered cell-structures behind. I swear, I don't know what is so confusing about this. This is not thepuzzling part. The puzzling part is the question of what sort of regimen isbest (or necessary?) for curing our bamboo. Now, for pete's sake, let's move on to something else. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Rick,There is no free moisture in the cane by the time we get itTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company which makesspecialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following toreport: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants whichare different but the long chains which make up the bulk of thefibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. Thisincludes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbonatoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and boundmoisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of thefree moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can crosslink to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually bycreating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibriummoisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to alower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle* Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils toform the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannotcomment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact thatlignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much likeplastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at anymultimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. from oandc@email.msn.com Sat Oct 13 18:03:31 2001 f9DN3U406331 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:03:30 - Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:02:50 -0700 Subject: Test FILETIME=[2EF953A0:01C1543B] Testing Testing from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 13 19:31:30 2001 f9E0VU408703 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:31:30 - Subject: test from oandc@email.msn.com Sat Oct 13 20:14:23 2001 f9E1EN409782 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:14:23 - Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:13:43 -0700 Subject: Test FILETIME=[779764F0:01C1544D] ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = Virus Database: 150 - Release Date:9/25/01 from seanmcs@iprimus.com.au Sat Oct 13 21:10:29 2001 f9E2AS410705 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:10:28 - Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:10:27 +1000 Subject: Test FILETIME=[6481DC30:01C15455] from jojo@ipa.net Sat Oct 13 21:18:36 2001 f9E2IZ411002 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:18:35 - for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:18:34 - Subject: Re: Test Hey! All you testy guys go away. No one's home. M-D from beadman@mac.com Sat Oct 13 21:23:14 2001 f9E2ND411262 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:23:13 - Subject: Speaking of Test... ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? I would think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude from jojo@ipa.net Sat Oct 13 21:37:46 2001 f9E2bj411650 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:37:45 - for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:37:48 - Subject: Re: Speaking of Test... Can't say that I have. In an effort to appear ignorant, what/where is theTest? M-D ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? Iwould think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude from boyko@peoplepc.com Sat Oct 13 22:10:28 2001 f9E3AQ412246 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:10:26 - 0700 oemcomputer) (4.4.186.53) -0700 Subject: Re: Test ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Test from splitcane@t-online.de Sat Oct 13 22:26:20 2001 f9E3QJ412577 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:26:19 - id 15sbuv-0000dQ-00; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 05:26:21 +0200 fwd00.sul.t-online.com Subject: Re: Speaking of Test... The test is an excellent River in Great Britain not so easy to get a permt tofish thereMichael Jojo DeLancier schrieb: Can't say that I have. In an effort to appear ignorant, what/where is theTest? M-D ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? Iwould think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude from martinrjensen@home.com Sat Oct 13 22:34:39 2001 f9E3Yc413059 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:34:38 - femail38.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:34:37 -0700 Subject: RE: Speaking of Test... Nice reply. You could have said "It's in England, any fool knows that!",but that would have been a bit testy eh? Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- splitcane@t-online.de Subject: Re: Speaking of Test... The test is an excellent River in Great Britain not so easy to get apermt to fish there Michael Jojo DeLancier schrieb: Can't say that I have. In an effort to appear ignorant, what/where is the Test? M-D ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? I would think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude from seanmcs@iprimus.com.au Sat Oct 13 22:44:35 2001 f9E3iX413495 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:44:34 - Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:44:32 +1000 Subject: Re: Speaking of Test... FILETIME=[8911FC30:01C15462] Claude: It is indeed one way to go... Sean Claude Freaner wrote: ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? Iwould think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude from jojo@ipa.net Sat Oct 13 22:45:22 2001 f9E3jL413644 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:45:21 - for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:45:24 - Subject: Re: Speaking of Test... Yeah, but I would have been excluded because I didn't know that. Now that Ido, I can join the ranks.Testy, testy. ;o) M-D Nice reply. You could have said "It's in England, any fool knows that!",but that would have been a bit testy eh? Martin Jensen The test is an excellent River in Great Britain not so easy to get apermt to fish there Michael Jojo DeLancier schrieb: Can't say that I have. In an effort to appear ignorant, what/where isthe Test? M-D ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? Iwould think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude from shane_person@telus.net Sat Oct 13 23:27:31 2001 f9E4RV414361 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:27:31 - Subject: Re: Speaking of Test... Speaking of ultimate goals, how about this: Fish for salmon on the river Dee at Cairnton with a 12 foot cane rod andsilk line using A.H.E. Wood's greased line method. Shane Claude Freaner wrote: ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? Iwould think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude from splitcane@t-online.de Sat Oct 13 23:55:49 2001 f9E4tm414891 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:55:48 - id 15sdJP-0003M2-02; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 06:55:43 +0200 fwd03.sul.t-online.com Subject: Re: Speaking of Test... Oh please don't test me q;-)Michael Martin Jensen schrieb: Nice reply. You could have said "It's in England, any fool knows that!",but that would have been a bit testy eh? Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu splitcane@t-online.deSent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 8:09 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Speaking of Test... The test is an excellent River in Great Britain not so easy to get apermt to fish there Michael Jojo DeLancier schrieb: Can't say that I have. In an effort to appear ignorant, what/where isthe Test? M-D ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? Iwould think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Sun Oct 14 00:28:16 2001 f9E5SF415548 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 00:28:16 - Sun, 14 Oct 2001 06:28:18 +0100 Subject: Re: Speaking of Test... Permits for the Test are not that difficult to come by .....They are however jolly expensive and for me will represent that once ina lifetime trip .If you already have some extra cash have a look at www.fishingbreaks.co.uk and click on Chalkstreams. Tight lines........Paulsplitcane@t-online.de wrote: The test is an excellent River in Great Britain not so easy to get a permttofish thereMichael Jojo DeLancier schrieb: Can't say that I have. In an effort to appear ignorant, what/where is theTest? M-D ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? Iwould think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 00:33:08 2001 f9E5X7415914 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 00:33:07 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 01:32:37 -0400 Subject: Binder belt idea Thought you guys might like to know this.:))I tried using some old braided nylon line (that I purchased for $6.00 in =an antique store) for a binder belt. I also used a Braided loop =connector(with the loop cut off) to connect the ends. Kinda like a =Chinese finger trap.Now this in itself made a great belt for my binder. I put a small amount = 5 min. epoxy over the braided part to make sure the ends held.But the BIG benefit was (unlike using cotton string for a belt) that thebelt was reusable. I used it on two sections and the belt is still =flexible.Cotton cord or string hardens and you have to make a new belt for every =section. There is some sort of coating on the braided nylon that doesn't =allow it to harden. Also the loop connector makes for a knotless belt =and a very flexible and smooth transition through the binder.I'm getting ready to bind up another section (of a rod) and it seems =like the it's first time I've used it. (just as smooth)Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Thought you guys might like to this.:)) belt. I also used a Braided loop connector(with the loop cut off) to = Now this in itself made a great belt = 5 min. epoxy over the braided part to = ends held.But the BIG benefit was (unlike using = belt was reusable. I used it on two = the belt is still flexible.Cotton cord or string hardens and you= a new belt for every section. There is some sort of coating on the = transition through the binder.I'm getting ready to bind up another = smooth)Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 03:22:19 2001 f9E8MI417297 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 03:22:18 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 04:22:20 -0400 Subject: A revelation It finally hit me, I looked at pictures of power binders for over2 yrs. and I finally get the concept. Of course I'm one of those guyswho could never see the sailing ship in all those paintings (in the =80's)that were just a bunch of dots. LOLAny way, does anyone use one of these binders? And is it worth buildingif I have a Garrison style binder now?I was thinking of building one with a hand crank instead of a motor.Don't really need it to be a power binder , but from what I understandis that these binders offer twist free blanks. Now, I don't have a real =big problem with that,but every once in a while I get a slight twist =which is easily corrected. So is it worth it or am I using dynamite to = so what's the verdict.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html It finally hit me, I looked at pictures = binders for over course I'm one of those guyswho could never see the sailing ship in = paintings (in the 80's)that were just a bunch of dots. =LOLAny way, does anyone use one of these= is it worth buildingif I have a Garrison style binder =now?I was thinking of building one with a = instead of a motor.Don't really need it to be a power = is that these binders offer twist free = I don't have a real big problem with that,but every once in a = slight twist which is easily corrected. So is it worth it or am I using = so what's the verdict.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 14 03:43:31 2001 f9E8hT417651 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 03:43:29 - Subject: Re: A revelation Ian Kearney made one with a crank from lawn mower wheels and a fan beltand a few other things the looked a bit like he picked them up off the road on the way home. The ....device works great. Highly recomended Tony At 04:22 AM 10/14/01 -0400, Tony Miller wrote: It finally hit me, I looked at pictures of power binders for over2 yrs. and I finally get the concept. Of course I'm one of those guyswho could never see the sailing ship in all those paintings (in the 80's)that were just a bunch of dots. LOLAny way, does anyone use one of these binders? And is it worth buildingif I have a Garrison style binder now?I was thinking of building one with a hand crank instead of a motor.Don't really need it to be a power binder , but from what I understandis that these binders offer twist free blanks. Now, I don't have a real big problem with that,but every once in a while I get a slight twist which is easily corrected. So is it worth it or am I using dynamite to find where the trout are holding? Whew! did you see that bubba!so what's the verdict.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Oct 14 07:01:16 2001 f9EC1G423669 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 07:01:16 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:01:10 - Subject: 8 and 6 footer in one Darryl - An interesting project. I assume you are looking for a dual purpose backpack rod, with the 8 footer for big rivers and lakes, and the fast 6 footer for brushy little streams. If I were trying it, I would have made any taper compromises in favor of the 8 footer, and let the 6 footer take careof itself. My theory being that a more or less fast butt on an already fast rod rather have the 8 footer be as good as it can be.I would also forget about an adapter. Ferrules do get stuck, and if the adapter got stuck in the field, you might have a tough time getting it free.I would use the built up ferrule station scheme that a some of us have used to mount oversize round ferrules on quads. Basically you glue cane or hardwood strips to the blank, about 1/4" longer than the ferrule depth. Turn the ferrule station round, and mount the ferrule, then carve and sand the stubs of the strips to get a smooth joint from the blank to the ferrule end. Once covered with thread, this is not all that bad looking. I would definitely use a truncated ferrule to keep weight to a minimum. Use a strong glue for the strips, there is stress involved in this area.As to fitting the ferrules, my choice for an "out of the box" attempt would be REC's uniferrules, which are machined to tight tolerances. In fact, however I doubt that you need to do this blind. If you contact Dan Lanier at REC, Baily Wood at CSE, or Russ Gooding at Goldenwitch, and explain what you want to do, I would guess any of them would take a few minutes to select a matched pair for you. My apologies if I left anyone out, these are just the guys that come to mind. from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 14 07:24:20 2001 f9ECOK424340 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 07:24:20 - Subject: Re: Speaking of Test... This all depends on the colour of your neck so don't get your hopes too high.Terry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Yeah, but I would have been excluded because I didn't know that. Now that Ido, I can join the ranks.Testy, testy. ;o) M-D Nice reply. You could have said "It's in England, any fool knows that!",but that would have been a bit testy eh? Martin Jensen The test is an excellent River in Great Britain not so easy to get apermt to fish there Michael Jojo DeLancier schrieb: Can't say that I have. In an effort to appear ignorant, what/where isthe Test? M-D ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? Iwould think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude from Vtbamboo@cs.com Sun Oct 14 07:39:46 2001 f9ECdj424893 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 07:39:45 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:39:18 - Subject: Stainless Steel / Nickel Silver I repaired a tip on a friends old South Bend Double Built rod which he recently inherited. The reel seat also needed repair & being a machinist he said he would do it himself. He copied the original exactly, only he substituted stainless steel for nickel silver. I was surprised to see how attractive it was, just like polished N.S. The cost per foot for a 1" round was around $7. Does anybody have any experience with S.S?Could Ferrules be made out of it? I forget the alloy number he said it was, but he did say it was non hardenable, and machines like brass.Any info is appreciated. Thanks, Vinnie friends old South Bend Double Built rod which he recently inherited. would do it himself. He copied the original exactly, only he substituted it was, just like polished N.S. The cost per foot for a 1" round was around $7.Does anybody have any experience with S.S?Could Ferrules be made out of it? I forget the alloy number he said it from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 14 07:45:02 2001 f9ECj0425231 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 07:45:01 - Subject: Re: Speaking of Test... It MAY seem as though I'm just stirring the possum a bit here (did you like that?) but are you actually allowed to get to the water yet due to F&M? Serious question. Tony At 08:26 AM 10/14/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: This all depends on the colour of your neck so don't get your hopes too high.Terry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Yeah, but I would have been excluded because I didn't know that. Now thatIdo, I can join the ranks.Testy, testy. ;o) M-D Nice reply. You could have said "It's in England, any fool knows that!",but that would have been a bit testy eh? Martin Jensen The test is an excellent River in Great Britain not so easy to get apermt to fish there Michael Jojo DeLancier schrieb: Can't say that I have. In an effort to appear ignorant, what/where isthe Test? M-D ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? Iwould think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from mrmac@tcimet.net Sun Oct 14 07:45:39 2001 f9ECjc425345 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 07:45:38 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:02:42 - Subject: Much smarter now Having just completed the butt strips to couple Driggs, I now knowseveral new things! 1. You can run yourself silly adjusting the planing form if you don'tthink to check if the tip on your depth gage isn't screwed on tight.*duh* 2. Splinters stick up real nifty when you bend a strip that has wormhole problems "just on the edge, and it's not TOO big....". I've neverseen a strip delaminate quite that way. cool...a porcupine's pinup.sounds kinda neat, too. 3. An air gun oven will do seriously different things to a single stripthan it does to a bundled group. Did you know that you can make theblack go all the way through? mac from flytyr@southshore.com Sun Oct 14 07:52:06 2001 f9ECq5425822 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 07:52:05 - f9ECq8T29601; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 07:52:08 -0500 Subject: Re: A revelation ( Binders) Tony,I assume you mean the 4 string power binder. I useboth types.The Garrison is used for all rough binding, HT andbinding to check the seams before gluing. I alsouse it to bind the wet beveled strips for drying. One reason I use the Garrison for this is I have aspool of thread that will last me the rest of myrod making days. It was cheap. The 4 string powerbinder takes four spools of thread that cost 5.00a spool. I am not cheap, just frugal. The Garrisonis no problem to use, did get some twisting till Ifound the right tension settings. I made somechanges on mine. See the next issue ofPowerfibers. The 4 string was a gift that is why Ihave it. I do all the gluing on the 4 string.The 4 string binder can do a good job of twistingif all four threads are not tensioned the same.The benefits of the 4 string are , no belts tomess with, only have to run the stick through onetime, no unraveling and no half hitches at theend. You get a neat pigtail that makes a greatloop for hanging the stick. You can control thespace between the wraps by controlling the speedyou feed the stick through the wrapper and lessmess to clean up.Both types have their good and bad points. I wouldnot say one is better than the other. I use bothof them.If you make a 4 string, put the tension on thespools and not the thread.This eliminates the four tension devices and is alot easier to set the tension. On mine, chair legslides are used to tension the spools. Works greatand less hassle then making up four tensioners.Cheaper too, there I go again sounding like I amcheap. LOLTony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony Miller wrote: It finally hit me, I looked at pictures of powerbinders for over2 yrs. and I finally get theconcept. Of course I'm one of those guyswhocould never see the sailing ship in all thosepaintings (in the 80's)that were just a bunch ofdots. LOL from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 14 07:52:07 2001 f9ECq6425826 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 07:52:06 - Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture BILL,you have got it arse about face not me.Free water is the water occupying the cell cavities of green wood and is thefirst to dry out leaving what is called the "fiber saturation point". Water loss from the cell cavities does not cause wood to shrinkBound water is the water within the cell walls and the last to leave and thiscauses shrinkage. Bound water is what has to be controlled.I suggest you read The Encyclopedia Of Wood by The Forest Products Lab. Infactany good carpentry book will give you this information because anunderstandingof the behavior of lumber is critical and is usually at the very start.I like to be as accurate as possible because bad information stays in thearchives and can mislead. Terry WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Terry, No. I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. The free moisture within ourcane will forever be seeking whatever the average ambient humidity maybe.We will drive this form of moisture out, temporarily, with our heattreating, but that moisture will forever be trying to return. It is by removing bound moisture (during the same heat treating process)that we obtain the only real control we may have over the ultimate"stiffness" of our cane. This form of moisture cannot return, becausethecell structures where it used to "live" will have been altered-- leavingplasticized bundles of lignens, almost devoid of moisture, behind. Free moisture is called "free" because it remains free to enter and to exit(and it always will). On the other hand, the cellular spaces that used tobe occupied by bound moisture can no longer be occupied. Whether bambooorwood, and whether accomplished quickly with heat treating or slowly byaging, this process of driving off the bound water is called "curing," or"seasoning," or "drying." The process does not refer to the amount of freewater that is removed (this always leaves first, and always re- enterslater). It refers, instead, to the bound water that has been driven out andhas left more-or-less permanently altered cell-structures behind. I swear, I don't know what is so confusing about this. This is not thepuzzling part. The puzzling part is the question of what sort of regimen isbest (or necessary?) for curing our bamboo. Now, for pete's sake, let's move on to something else. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 10:00 PMSubject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Rick,There is no free moisture in the cane by the time we get itTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company whichmakesspecialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following toreport: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants whichare different but the long chains which make up the bulk of thefibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. Thisincludes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbonatoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and boundmoisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of thefree moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can crosslink to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually bycreating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibriummoisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to alower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle* Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils toform the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannotcomment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact thatlignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much likeplastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at anymultimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Oct 14 08:03:13 2001 f9ED3D426565 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:03:13 - Subject: Re: Stainless Steel / Nickel Silver In a message dated 10/14/1 12:40:27 PM, Vtbamboo@cs.com writes: Vinnie - The grade was probably 303, which contains a small ammount ofsulfur to improve the machining characteristics. Stainless is a lot stronger than NS, and also won't tarnish. The downside for ferrules is that it does not have the self lubricating qualities of NS, bronze or brass. I have seen nice looking ferrules made from it, but I would personally fit them slacker than an NS ferrule to avoid sticking problems. from channer@frontier.net Sun Oct 14 08:09:26 2001 f9ED9P426897 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:09:25 - Subject: Re: A revelation ( Binders) Tony;What kind of thread are you using that costs 5 bucks a spool, or shouldI ask what size spools? I buy C&C Button,Carpet&Craft at Wally World fora buck and some change a standard sewing spool and get about 2(maybe 3,can't remember for sure) rods both heat treated and glued out of it. Itglace cotton covered polyester, but I have never had it burn or meltwhen heat treating and I can just stop and get more when I run out,instead of having to wait for OOPS to deliver it.john Tony Spezio wrote: Tony,I assume you mean the 4 string power binder. I useboth types.The Garrison is used for all rough binding, HT andbinding to check the seams before gluing. I alsouse it to bind the wet beveled strips for drying. One reason I use the Garrison for this is I have aspool of thread that will last me the rest of myrod making days. It was cheap. The 4 string powerbinder takes four spools of thread that cost 5.00a spool. I am not cheap, just frugal. The Garrisonis no problem to use, did get some twisting till Ifound the right tension settings. I made somechanges on mine. See the next issue ofPowerfibers. The 4 string was a gift that is why Ihave it. I do all the gluing on the 4 string.The 4 string binder can do a good job of twistingif all four threads are not tensioned the same.The benefits of the 4 string are , no belts tomess with, only have to run the stick through onetime, no unraveling and no half hitches at theend. You get a neat pigtail that makes a greatloop for hanging the stick. You can control thespace between the wraps by controlling the speedyou feed the stick through the wrapper and lessmess to clean up.Both types have their good and bad points. I wouldnot say one is better than the other. I use bothof them.If you make a 4 string, put the tension on thespools and not the thread.This eliminates the four tension devices and is alot easier to set the tension. On mine, chair legslides are used to tension the spools. Works greatand less hassle then making up four tensioners.Cheaper too, there I go again sounding like I amcheap. LOLTony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony Miller wrote: It finally hit me, I looked at pictures of powerbinders for over2 yrs. and I finally get theconcept. Of course I'm one of those guyswhocould never see the sailing ship in all thosepaintings (in the 80's)that were just a bunch ofdots. LOL from stpete@netten.net Sun Oct 14 08:12:45 2001 f9EDCi427180 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:12:44 - forged)) Sun, 14 Oct 2001 07:18:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Just a note to those following this thread. The 'free water' and 'bound water'Terry is referring to is all considered 'free moisture' at the level Bill and I aretalking about. Terry is looking at this on the cellular level. Bill and I arelooking at the molecular level. There is a 'sizable' difference. [:-)] Don'tconfusethe two. Rick "T. Ackland" wrote: BILL,you have got it arse about face not me.Free water is the water occupying the cell cavities of green wood and isthefirst to dry out leaving what is called the "fiber saturation point". Waterloss from the cell cavities does not cause wood to shrinkBound water is the water within the cell walls and the last to leave and thiscauses shrinkage. Bound water is what has to be controlled.I suggest you read The Encyclopedia Of Wood by The Forest Products Lab.In factany good carpentry book will give you this information because anunderstandingof the behavior of lumber is critical and is usually at the very start.I like to be as accurate as possible because bad information stays in thearchives and can mislead. Terry WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Terry, No. I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. The free moisture within ourcane will forever be seeking whatever the average ambient humidity maybe.We will drive this form of moisture out, temporarily, with our heattreating, but that moisture will forever be trying to return. It is by removing bound moisture (during the same heat treating process)that we obtain the only real control we may have over the ultimate"stiffness" of our cane. This form of moisture cannot return, becausethecell structures where it used to "live" will have been altered-- leavingplasticized bundles of lignens, almost devoid of moisture, behind. Free moisture is called "free" because it remains free to enter and toexit(and it always will). On the other hand, the cellular spaces that used tobe occupied by bound moisture can no longer be occupied. Whetherbamboo orwood, and whether accomplished quickly with heat treating or slowly byaging, this process of driving off the bound water is called "curing," or"seasoning," or "drying." The process does not refer to the amount offreewater that is removed (this always leaves first, and always re- enterslater). It refers, instead, to the bound water that has been driven outandhas left more-or-less permanently altered cell-structures behind. I swear, I don't know what is so confusing about this. This is not thepuzzling part. The puzzling part is the question of what sort of regimenisbest (or necessary?) for curing our bamboo. Now, for pete's sake, let's move on to something else. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 10:00 PMSubject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Rick,There is no free moisture in the cane by the time we get itTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company whichmakesspecialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following toreport: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants whichare different but the long chains which make up the bulk of thefibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. Thisincludes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbonatoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and boundmoisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of thefree moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can crosslink to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually bycreating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibriummoisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to alower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle* Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils toform the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannotcomment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact thatlignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much likeplastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at anymultimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 08:15:31 2001 f9EDFU427462 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:15:30 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:15:33 -0400 Subject: Re:SS/NS VinnieHere is the thing.:))Todays makers seem not to eager to step out of the (all ready been done =mode) and that includes my self:)) LOLNow on tools and tooling (no problem) we will get high tech as =possible.But on the rods, well that's another story. We tend to follow the old =masters. At least for the most part. You will notice not to many makers =would use stainless steel. However as a machinist my self, I feel your =theory is correct.:)) Stainless would be a perfect ferrule material. It =looks good ,does not corrode and is easy to machine. (if you have the =right stuff) and it sounds like your friend does. So why don't we use =it?Well think of it like this, Imagine me trying to sell a rod to a =customer.And the customer says "what do you use for the ferrules?" and I say =stainless steel. If he knows anything about cane rods, he is gonna think =something is wrong here. All the good rods have N/S ferrules.Now if your gonna use the rod your self ,I say go for it. If your =selling them,well that's another story. Just my opinion.:)) www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html VinnieHere is the thing.:))Todays makers seem not to eager tostep = (all ready been done mode) and that includes my self:)) LOLNow on tools and tooling (no problem) = But on the rods, well that's another = to follow the old masters. At least for the most part. You will notice = many makers would use stainless steel. However as a machinist my = feel your theory is correct.:)) Stainless would be a perfect ferrule = It looks good ,does not corrode and is easy to machine. (if you have the = it?Well think of it like this, Imagine me = sell a rod to a customer.And the customer says "what do youuse = ferrules?" and I say stainless steel. If he knows anything about cane = ferrules.Now if your gonna use the rod your self= opinion.:)) www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Sun Oct 14 08:27:00 2001 f9EDQx428514 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:26:59 - GAA03957; GAA14030; f9EDQxm25310; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 06:26:59 -0700 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: A revelation this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I have a hand crank milward binder that I was going to put a motor on but itworks so good by hand cranking that I haven't bothered. Puts on 4 bindingsat once. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: A revelation It finally hit me, I looked at pictures of power binders for over2 yrs. and I finally get the concept. Of course I'm one of those guyswho could never see the sailing ship in all those paintings (in the 80's)that were just a bunch of dots. LOLAny way, does anyone use one of these binders? And is it worth buildingif I have a Garrison style binder now?I was thinking of building one with a hand crank instead of a motor.Don't really need it to be a power binder , but from what I understandis that these binders offer twist free blanks. Now, I don't have a real bigproblem with that,but every once in a while I get a slight twist which iseasily corrected. So is it worth it or am I using dynamite to find where thetrout are holding? Whew! did you see that bubba! so what's the verdict.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html------ I have a hand crank milward binder that I was going to put a motor on but it worksso good by hand cranking that I haven't bothered. Puts on 4 bindings at once. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair Planning 61-79 -----Original Message-----From: Tony Miller 1:22 revelationIt finally hit me, I looked at pictures of power binders for over course I'm one of those guyswho could never see the sailing ship in allthose paintings (in the 80's)that were just a bunch of dots.LOLAny way, does anyone use one of thesebinders? And is it worth buildingif I have a Garrison style binder now?I was thinking of building one with a handcrank instead of a motor.Don't really need it to be a power binder , but is that these binders offer twist freeblanks. Now, I don't have a real big problem with that,but every once in a or am I using dynamite to find where the trout are holding? Whew! did yousee so what's the verdict.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Sun Oct 14 08:34:14 2001 f9EDYD429060 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:34:13 - IAA17146; GAA14711; f9EDYDm26301; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 06:34:14 -0700 flyfish@defnet.com Subject: RE: A revelation ( Binders) if you stick a pencil in a variable speed drill motor a empty spool will fiton it and you can load your own spools of the big spool and save a bundle,also walmart has spools of thread a lot cheaper. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: A revelation ( Binders) Tony,I assume you mean the 4 string power binder. I useboth types.The Garrison is used for all rough binding, HT andbinding to check the seams before gluing. I alsouse it to bind the wet beveled strips for drying. One reason I use the Garrison for this is I have aspool of thread that will last me the rest of myrod making days. It was cheap. The 4 string powerbinder takes four spools of thread that cost 5.00a spool. I am not cheap, just frugal. The Garrisonis no problem to use, did get some twisting till Ifound the right tension settings. I made somechanges on mine. See the next issue ofPowerfibers. The 4 string was a gift that is why Ihave it. I do all the gluing on the 4 string.The 4 string binder can do a good job of twistingif all four threads are not tensioned the same.The benefits of the 4 string are , no belts tomess with, only have to run the stick through onetime, no unraveling and no half hitches at theend. You get a neat pigtail that makes a greatloop for hanging the stick. You can control thespace between the wraps by controlling the speedyou feed the stick through the wrapper and lessmess to clean up.Both types have their good and bad points. I wouldnot say one is better than the other. I use bothof them.If you make a 4 string, put the tension on thespools and not the thread.This eliminates the four tension devices and is alot easier to set the tension. On mine, chair legslides are used to tension the spools. Works greatand less hassle then making up four tensioners.Cheaper too, there I go again sounding like I amcheap. LOLTony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony Miller wrote: It finally hit me, I looked at pictures of powerbinders for over2 yrs. and I finally get theconcept. Of course I'm one of those guyswhocould never see the sailing ship in all thosepaintings (in the 80's)that were just a bunch ofdots. LOL from jbbamboo47@yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 09:37:34 2001 f9EEbX400812 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:37:33 - Sun, 14 Oct 2001 07:37:37 PDT Subject: bamboo ferrules made a rod useing bamboo ferrules. there hex inside anout. the fit was fine the problem is after a few caststhey loosen. any ideas. jeb __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from jojo@ipa.net Sun Oct 14 09:39:23 2001 f9EEdM401059 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:39:22 -0500 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:39:22 -0400 Subject: Re:SS/NS Tony, I'm sure there must be SS alloys out there that are not prone to =galling, but my experience with precision fitting the slides on SS 1911 =pistols is that the fit must be quite sloppy, as compared to another =pistol made of blued steel, which I think is 4140. M-D SNIP However as a machinist my self, I feel your theory is correct.:)) =Stainless would be a perfect ferrule material. It looks good ,does not =corrode and is easy to machine. (if you have the right stuff) and it =sounds like your friend does. So why don't we use it? Tony, I'm sure there must beSS = there that are not prone to galling, but my experience with precision = the slides on SS 1911 pistols is that the fit must be quite sloppy, as = 4140. M-D SNIP However as a machinist my = theory is correct.:)) Stainless would be a perfect ferrule material. = good ,does not corrode and is easy to machine. (if you have the right = it? from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 09:52:09 2001 f9EEq8401552 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:52:08 - 14 Oct 2001 07:52:08 PDT Subject: Re: bamboo ferrules at this poibt? duct tape? ha ha yes i know. [:-)] timothy --- james bailey wrote: made a rod useing bamboo ferrules. there hex insideanout. the fit was fine the problem is after a fewcaststhey loosen. any ideas. jeb __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from jojo@ipa.net Sun Oct 14 09:57:25 2001 f9EEvO401835 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:57:24 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:57:28 - Subject: Re: A revelation Same here, though one day I will put a motor and a foot control on it. M-D I have a hand crank milward binder that I was going to put a motor on =but it works so good by hand cranking that I haven't bothered. Puts on 4 =bindings at once. Same here, though oneday = a motor and a foot control on it. M-D Coffey, Patrick W = have a hand crank milward binder that I was going to put a motor on = works so good by hand cranking that I haven't bothered. Puts on 4 = once. from piscator@macatawa.org Sun Oct 14 10:07:58 2001 f9EF7v402158 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:07:57 - Subject: Re: bamboo ferrules Maybe bees wax? I have no experience here, but it works on metal ferrules.. . . Brian from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 10:13:22 2001 f9EFDL402476 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:13:21 - 14 Oct 2001 08:13:25 PDT Subject: Re: bamboo ferrules rodmakers list maybe you could fit a n/s ring around the femaleferrule like is done when the shank splits on a pipe. timothy --- Brian Creek wrote: Maybe bees wax? I have no experience here, but itworks on metal ferrules.. . . Brian ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from flyfishr@istar.ca Sun Oct 14 10:16:08 2001 f9EFG7402698 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:16:07 - helo=flyfishr) id 15sn09-0001UU-00; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:16:30 -0400 Subject: Re: A revelation I installed a sewing machine motor with rubber drive belts and a foot =controller on mine. The belts and pulleys are on the back side. It's a =lot easier to use the binder with two hands on the rod. Subject: Re: A revelation Same here, though one day I will put a motor and a foot control on it. M-D I have a hand crank milward binder that I was going to put a motor =on but it works so good by hand cranking that I haven't bothered. Puts =on 4 bindings at once. I installed a sewing machine motor with rubber drive belts and a = controller on mine. The belts and pulleys are on the back side. It's a = easier to use the binder with two hands on the rod. ----- Original Message ----- Jojo =DeLancier Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 = AMSubject: Re: A revelation Same here, though one= put a motor and a foot control on it. M-D Coffey, Patrick W have a hand crank milward binder that I was going to put a motor on = works so good by hand cranking that I haven't bothered. Puts on 4 = at once. from JNL123141@msn.com Sun Oct 14 10:18:22 2001 f9EFIL402938 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:18:21 - Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:18:20 -0700 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: bamboo ferrules FILETIME=[756B0B70:01C154C3] I would try mixing up some 5 minute epoxy, thinning it with acetone, then=try to rub it in to the cane. Maybe you can get enough penetration to h=arden up the cane. Ask Bob Nunley what he did for his bamboo ferrules. John I would try mixing up some 5 minute epoxy, thinning it with acetone, = John from jojo@ipa.net Sun Oct 14 10:21:01 2001 f9EFL0403216 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:21:00 -0500 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:21:03 -0400 Subject: Re: bamboo ferrules Might a CA adhesive work? It can be applied in layers, then sanded andpolished to the appropriate thickness, or fit, as it were. M-D Maybe bees wax? I have no experience here, but it works on metalferrules. . . . Brian from horsesho@ptd.net Sun Oct 14 10:27:24 2001 f9EFRO403573 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:27:24 - v4.1.40/v4164. . Clean. Processed in 0.720703 secs); 14 Oct 200115:21:36 -0000 Subject: Re: Stainless Steel / Nickel Silver --------------4E8C17B2B6B4450A8E29A4A3 I remember seeing in an old Fly Fisherman magazine an add for SSferrules. I think SS is not as "greasy" as NS so the ferrule may tend tobind. Marty Vtbamboo@cs.com wrote: I repaired a tip on a friends old South Bend Double Built rodwhich he recently inherited. The reel seat also needed repair & beinga machinist he said he would do it himself. He copied the originalexactly, only he substituted stainless steel for nickel silver. I wassurprised to see how attractive it was, just like polished N.S. Thecost per foot for a 1" round was around $7. Does anybody have anyexperience with S.S?Could Ferrules be made out of it? I forget the alloy number he said itwas, but he did say it was non hardenable, and machines like brass.Any info is appreciated. Thanks, Vinnie --------------4E8C17B2B6B4450A8E29A4A3 I remember seeing in an old Fly Fisherman magazine an add for SS ferrules.I think SS is not as "greasy" as NS so the ferrule may tend to bind. MartyVtbamboo@cs.com wrote: Irepaired a tip on a friends old South Bend Double Built rod which he recently he said he would do it himself. He copied the original exactly, only he see how attractive it was, just like polished N.S. The cost per foot fora 1" round was around $7. Does anybody have any experience withS.S?CouldFerrulesbe made out of it? I forget the alloy number he said it was, but he did brass. Any info is appreciated. Thanks, Vinnie --------------4E8C17B2B6B4450A8E29A4A3-- from martinrjensen@home.com Sun Oct 14 10:31:28 2001 f9EFVR403854 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:31:27 - femail47.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:31:31 -0700 Subject: RE: A revelation I have a foot control on mine. I don't use it anymore as I didn't findit necessary. Used it a bit when I first installed it and "thought" itwas useful, but after thinking about it found that it really didn't giveme anything that I needed. I have a switch real close to turn it on andoff. That's real handy. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: A revelation Same here, though one day I will put a motor and a foot control on it. M-D crank milward binder that I was going to put a motor onbut it works so good by hand cranking that I haven't bothered. Puts on 4bindings at once. Message a foot control on mine. I don't use it anymore as I didn't find it = Used it a bit when I first installed it and "thought" it was useful, but = thinking about it found that it really didn't give me anything that I = handy. Jensen -----Original Message----- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = On Behalf Of Jojo DeLancierSent: Sunday, October14, = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: = revelationSame here, though one= put a motor and a foot control on it. M-D Coffey, Patrick W = have a hand crank milward binder that I was going to put a motor on = works so good by hand cranking that I haven't bothered. Puts on 4 = at once. from martinrjensen@home.com Sun Oct 14 10:37:02 2001 f9EFb1404177 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:37:01 - femail25.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:37:01 -0700 Subject: RE: SS/NS If you use SS ferrules, you'll end up sawing your rod in half one day toput it back in the rod case. Stainless has a bad galling problem withoutthe use of lubricants. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re:SS/NS VinnieHere is the thing.:))Todays makers seem not to eager to step out of the (all ready been donemode) and that includes my self:)) LOLNow on tools and tooling (no problem) we will get high tech aspossible.But on the rods, well that's another story. We tend to follow the oldmasters. At least for the most part. You will notice not to many makerswould use stainless steel. However as a machinist my self, I feel yourtheory is correct.:)) Stainless would be a perfect ferrule material. Itlooks good ,does not corrode and is easy to machine. (if you have theright stuff) and it sounds like your friend does. So why don't we useit?Well think of it like this, Imagine me trying to sell a rod to acustomer.And the customer says "what do you use for the ferrules?" and I saystainless steel. If he knows anything about cane rods, he is gonna thinksomething is wrong here. All the good rods have N/S ferrules.Now if your gonna use the rod your self ,I say go for it. If yourselling them,well that's another story. Just my opinion.:))Tony Miller www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Message use SS ferrules, you'll end up sawing your rod in half one day to put it = lubricants. Jensen -----Original Message----- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = On Behalf Of Tony MillerSent: Sunday, October 14, = Re:SS/NSVinnieHere is the thing.:))Todays makers seem not to eager to = the (all ready been done mode) and that includes my self:)) =LOLNow on tools and tooling (no problem) = But on the rods, well that's another = tend to follow the old masters. At least for the most part. You will = not to many makers would use stainless steel. However as a machinist = ferrule material. It looks good ,does not corrode and is easy to = Well think of it like this, Imagine = sell a rod to a customer.And the customer says "what do you = ferrules?" and I say stainless steel. If he knows anything about cane = ferrules.Now if your gonna use the rod your = opinion.:)) www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 14 10:44:36 2001 f9EFiZ404453 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:44:35 - f9EFibT16913; Subject: Re:SS/NS Tony, Winston uses Duronz. How about trying some of that? Adam Subject: Re:SS/NSAnd the customer says "what do you use for the ferrules?" and I say =stainless steel. If he knows anything about cane rods, he is gonna think =something is wrong here. All the good rods have N/S ferrules www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Tony, Winston uses Duronz. How about trying= that? Adam ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 = AMSubject: Re:SS/NSAnd the= "what do you use for the ferrules?" and I say stainless steel. If he = anything about cane rods, he is gonna think something is wrong here. = good rods have N/S ferrules www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from caneman@clnk.com Sun Oct 14 10:57:45 2001 f9EFvi404806 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:57:44 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) ,"RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: bamboo ferrules Plexiglass disolved in Acetone and soak both ferrules in it... getting =geared up for the Winston Cup race... gotta run!!! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 10:18 AMSubject: Re: bamboo ferrules I would try mixing up some 5 minute epoxy, thinning it with acetone, =then try to rub it in to the cane. Maybe you can get enough penetration =to harden up the cane. Ask Bob Nunley what he did for his bamboo =ferrules. John Plexiglass disolved in Acetone and soak both = it... getting geared up for the Winston Cup race... gotta =run!!! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly=Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- John = jbbamboo47@yahoo.com ;RodmakersPost Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 = AMSubject: Re: bamboo =ferrules I would try mixing up some 5 minute epoxy, thinning it with = bamboo ferrules. John from caneman@clnk.com Sun Oct 14 11:01:31 2001 f9EG1U405056 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:01:30 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re:SS/NS Duronz is great stuff... has excellent self lube qualities, machines =easily (do it at slow speeds) needs to be honed inside the female after =reaming... but... it isn't as pretty as NS. Note that winston overwraps = Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Subject: Re:SS/NS Tony, Winston uses Duronz. How about trying some of that? Adam Subject: Re:SS/NSAnd the customer says "what do you use for the ferrules?" and I say =stainless steel. If he knows anything about cane rods, he is gonna think =something is wrong here. All the good rods have N/S ferrules www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Duronz is great stuff... has excellent self lube = machines easily (do it at slow speeds) needs to be honed inside the = Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Vigil Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 = AMSubject: Re:SS/NS Tony, Winston uses Duronz. How about trying= that? Adam ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, October 14, = AMSubject: Re:SS/NSAnd the= "what do you use for the ferrules?" and I say stainless steel. If he = anything about cane rods, he is gonna think something is wrong here. = good rods have N/S ferrules www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jojo@ipa.net Sun Oct 14 11:03:44 2001 f9EG3h405259 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:03:44 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:03:46 - Subject: Re:SS/NS It's not "purty" enough. You can polish it, but it will tarnish badly. =Maybe that's why the thread wrap extends the entire length of the =ferrule? M-D Tony, Winston uses Duronz. How about trying some of that? Adam It's not "purty" enough.= polish it, but it will tarnish badly. Maybe that's why the thread wrap = the entire length of the ferrule? M-D Vigil Tony, Winston uses Duronz. How about trying= that? Adam from martinrjensen@home.com Sun Oct 14 11:10:59 2001 f9EGAw405643 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:10:58 - femail27.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:10:58 -0700 Subject: RE: A revelation Well, it's not a big thing to put a foot control on . I put mine onbecause I had a "perceived" loss of control when I went to turn the uniton and off. I mean, those are the only two times you need to have yourhands off the rod while binding right? Otherwise you are just feedingthe rod into the binder. What I found out was that those two momentswere so small as to be insignificant. I can always leave one hand on therod... Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: A revelation Damn, Martin. Ron comes along and tells me one thing, something thatagreed with my line of thinking, and now here you come and dash it allto the ground. I'm so confused now that I think I'll go build some rods M-D I have a foot control on mine. I don't use it anymore as I didn't findit necessary. Used it a bit when I first installed it and "thought" itwas useful, but after thinking about it found that it really didn't giveme anything that I needed. I have a switch real close to turn it on andoff. That's real handy. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: A revelation Same here, though one day I will put a motor and a foot control on it. M-D crank milward binder that I was going to put a motor onbut it works so good by hand cranking that I haven't bothered. Puts on 4bindings at once. Message it's not a big thing to put a foot control on . I put mine on because I = "perceived" loss of control when I went to turn the unit on and off. I = those are the only two times you need to have your hands off the rod = binding right? Otherwise you are just feeding the rod into the binder. = found out was that those two moments were so small as to be = always leave one hand on the rod... Jensen -----Original Message-----From:Jojo = revelationDamn, Martin. Roncomes = tells me one thing, something that agreed with my line of thinking, = here you come and dash it all to the ground. I'm so confused now that = I'll go build some rods for the day. ;o) M-D have a foot control on mine. I don't use it anymore as I didn't find = necessary. Used it a bit when I first installed it and "thought" it = useful, but after thinking about it found that it really didn't give = anything that I needed. I have a switch real close to turn it on and = That's real handy. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From:=owner-rodmakers@wugate.w= DeLancierSent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 7:50 = revelation Same here, though = will put a motor and a foot control on it. M-D Coffey, Patrick =W I have a hand crank milward binder = going to put a motor on but it works so good by hand cranking = haven't bothered. Puts on 4 bindings at =once.= from jojo@ipa.net Sun Oct 14 11:12:08 2001 f9EGC8405811 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:12:08 -0500 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:12:11 -0400 Subject: Re: bamboo ferrules You got the "trots" again, Bob? M-D ... getting geared up for the Winston Cup race... gotta run!!! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Bob? M-D ... getting geared up for the Winston Cup = run!!! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly= ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from bob@downandacross.com Sun Oct 14 11:18:21 2001 f9EGIK406186 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:18:20 - Subject: RE: bamboo ferrules Hi James:You say they are hex inside and out? I am assuming the male slide and femaleare not round...I would ream the female, making it round inside. Then, buildup the male with splinters of bamboo. Then soak them as John and Bob Nmention, and then turn the male down to fit. I would bet that the tolerancessliding a hex section inside another hex section are not nearly as good asthey would be if round.Best regards, Bob M. -----Original Message----- Subject: bamboo ferrules made a rod useing bamboo ferrules. there hex inside anout. the fit was fine the problem is after a few caststhey loosen. any ideas. jeb __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 11:51:16 2001 f9EGpF406872 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:51:15 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:51:16 -0400 Subject: Dennis Bertram Dennis Bertram stopped by my small shop today.You would be hard pressed to find a nicer or more talentedrodmaker. I really enjoyed my visit with him and was very impressed Thank you Dennis for helping me out.And of course I talked to much and should have listened more.:)) LOLI was really impressed to know that Dennis makes every piece on his rods = from raw material. Most impressive!Dennis you are welcome at my shop anytime.:)) www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Dennis Bertram stopped by my smallshop = today.You would be hard pressed to find a = talentedrodmaker. I really enjoyed my visit = was very impressed Thank you Dennis for helping me =out. have listened more.:)) LOLI was really impressed to know that = every piece on his rods from raw material. Most impressive! anytime.:)) www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from rmoon@ida.net Sun Oct 14 12:26:26 2001 f9EHQP407537 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:26:25 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: SS/NS --------------070205080309030203020500 I used a special bronze alloy that has most of the same characteristics as NS, i am not sure if it is the same that Winston uses, but it makes a nice ferrule. When I mounted the ferrules, I buffed them to a high sheen, aand they looked beautiful. Over the years, they have corroded, but that word is not truly descriptive. Actually what they did was darken gradually and uniformly. They are stunning with the darkend finish on a darker rod.Any interest and I will try to dig up the alloy specs.Ralph Jojo DeLancier wrote: It's not "purty" enough. You can polish it, but it will tarnish badly. Maybe that's why the thread wrap extends the entire length of the ferrule? M-D From: Adam Vigil Tony, Winston uses Duronz. How about trying some of that? Adam --------------070205080309030203020500 I used a special bronze alloy that has most of the same characteristics as nice aand word and rod.Any interest and I will try to dig up the alloy specs.Ralph Jojo DeLancier wrote: It's not "purty" enough.You can polish it, but it will tarnish badly. Maybe that's why the threadwrap extends the entire length of the ferrule? M-D Adam Vigil Tony, Winston uses Duronz. How about tryingsome of that? Adam --------------070205080309030203020500-- from mschaffer@mindspring.com Sun Oct 14 12:26:54 2001 f9EHQr407651 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:26:53 - Subject: Re:SS/NS Never played with duronz before, maybe I can find some and toss it at =the latheSounds interesting.Does anyone know the specs on this alloy?Mike Subject: Re:SS/NS Duronz is great stuff... has excellent self lube qualities, machines =easily (do it at slow speeds) needs to be honed inside the female after =reaming... but... it isn't as pretty as NS. Note that winston overwraps = Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Never played with duronz before, maybe= some and toss it at the latheSounds interesting. alloy?Mike ----- Original Message ----- Bob =Nunley ; flyfish@defnet.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 = AMSubject: Re:SS/NS Duronz is great stuff... has excellent self lube = machines easily (do it at slow speeds) needs to be honed inside the = Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from mschaffer@mindspring.com Sun Oct 14 12:31:48 2001 f9EHVl408032 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:31:47 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:31:50 - Subject: Milward binder Guys,Can anyone point me to a good set of pictures of the 4 string binder? I =can't FF for the time being, so I've got lots of time I can spend in the =shop playing. Like the computer I'm trying to assemble and haven't =managed to blow up YET---a definate first! [;-)] Mike Guys,Can anyone point me to a good set of = to assemble and haven't managed to blow up YET---a definate = ;-)Mike from BarbRain@aol.com Sun Oct 14 12:37:12 2001 f9EHbB408428 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:37:11 - Subject: Re: Stainless Steel / Nickel Silver Another quality of stainless is that it makes a lighter ferrule. George Another quality of from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 12:54:11 2001 f9EHsA409001 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:54:10 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:54:09 -0400 Subject: Re:NS/SS/Bronze Ralph, that seems to be a great idea for ferrules.:))Bronze is used as bushing/bearing material so its wear characteristics =should be excellent. I might add that Lie-Nielson uses it for planes =too.However they use Manganese Bronze. Is that the same as you are using? Is = www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Ralph, that seems to be a great idea = ferrules.:))Bronze is used as bushing/bearing = it for planes too.However they use Manganese Bronze. Is= www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from BarbRain@aol.com Sun Oct 14 12:56:09 2001 f9EHu8409207 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:56:08 - Subject: Re: bamboo ferrules I am glad someone had what it takes to go bamboo with a hex cross section both inside and out. Tell us more........... You can rebulid the male part would be to rub paraffin wax on the male. This will tighten as well as lubricate. Keep the list informed of your progress because there are several people doing similar things. My latest is a tip over butt style made by flaring the bottom of the tip section and drilling a hole to accept the rounded butt section. It makes a very light connection. George Rainville I am glad someone hadwhat it takes to go bamboo with a hex cross section both inside and out. Tell super glue and refiting as original. Another approach would be to rub paraffinwax on the male. This will tighten as well as lubricate. Keep the list informedof your progress because there are several people doing similar things. Mylatest is a tip over butt style made by flaring the bottom of the tip sectionand drilling a hole to accept the rounded butt section. It makes a very light from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 14 13:10:34 2001 f9EIAX409685 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:10:33 - Subject: Re: SS/NS Wouldn't be Si Bronze or Ph Bronze would they? Tony At 11:25 AM 10/14/01 -0600, Ralph Moon wrote: I used a special bronze alloy that has most of the same characteristics as NS, i am not sure if it is the same that Winston uses, but it makes a nice ferrule. When I mounted the ferrules, I buffed them to a high sheen, aand they looked beautiful. Over the years, they have corroded, but that word is not truly descriptive. Actually what they did was darken gradually and uniformly. They are stunning with the darkend finish on a darker rod.Any interest and I will try to dig up the alloy specs.Ralph Jojo DeLancier wrote: /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 14 13:33:14 2001 f9EIXC410470 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:33:12 - Subject: Re:NS/SS/Bronze I just know I'm going to regret this but I really would recommend against using any of the more common, not common and downright exotic bronzes including iconel, monel and even berrelium copper other than NS. I've put quite a lot of time and effort into this subject and more than few ferrules in the bin and have come to the conclusion nothing beats NS. If you wanted the perfect metal it's available already NS is it.You can get a good fit with all the others with more work than NS mainly because they gaul as you file them but they tend to bind after a day's fishing and most are terrible to machine. They look terrific but I don't like them much on the rods I have them on at day's end.In the case of berrelium copper which was actually not too bad if you could handle the cost (great) you also have health problems I'm told.Si Bronze, Iconel and Monel are really no fun to machine and I doubt seriously you could draw the stuff judging on the concertina type rivet gun you need to use to set monel rivets. Ph Bronze (not lb2 which is sintered I think it's called in bearing circles but the real stuff) is ok to machine. This is what we here in Aust used to make 1 & 2 cent coins with before they were withdrawn. I converted $20 into 1 cent coins because I can use them as roves for riveting on my boat, compared with 50 cents a rove it works out well. I think US coins are the same or similar because they look the same freshly minted and also after they oxidize with circulation.I've tried Titanium which was an expensive disaster the Mig it came from didn't deserve, I admit that was because there are techniques I obviously hadn't mastered but why bother? LN uses bronze for planes and scrapers because they are intended as heirlooms as well as tools and Bronze wont rust so in 5,000 years time people will dig LN tools up and wonder how people sufficiently advanced to understand casting techniques well enough to create a tool that was not only functionally perfect but also beautiful to behold could have gone so wrong. Tony At 01:54 PM 10/14/01 -0400, Tony Miller wrote: Ralph, that seems to be a great idea for ferrules.:))Bronze is used as bushing/bearing material so its wear characteristics should be excellent. I might add that Lie-Nielson uses it for planes too.However they use Manganese Bronze. Is that the same as you are using? Is the color more bronze or gold?Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Oct 14 13:40:53 2001 f9EIeq411006 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:40:52 - Subject: Re: SS/NS George raises an interesting point, you can make a lighter ferrule out of stainless. A lot of the weight of a ferrule is in the female, and that is where the strength is needed too. Suppose you made the female out of stainless, and the male out of NS or bronze. I wonder if that would eliminate the galling problem? from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 13:52:01 2001 f9EIq0411732 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:52:00 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:52:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Tom/SS/NS TomThere is a reaction that is well known to An old Navy Hull technician =like myself that is called Electrolysis. It is when two dissimilar =metals make they get a reaction that corrodes the two metal into powder. Now it =might need salt water in the air to speed things along,but I'm sure it =happens at a slower rate without saltwater. And it happens quite fast =too. Especiallybetween ferrous and non-ferrous metals.Tony Y. you work on boats don't you ? have you ever heard of this? www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html TomThere is a reaction that is well known = Navy Hull technician like myself that is called Electrolysis. It is when = dissimilar metals makecontact. Somehow(and I'm no scientist,= they get a reaction that corrodes the = into powder. Now it might need salt water in the air to speed things = I'm sure it happens at a slower rate without saltwater. And it happens = fast too. Especially metals.Tony Y. you work on boats don't you ? = heard of this? www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 14 13:54:14 2001 f9EIsD411975 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:54:13 - Subject: Re: SS/NS You'd think so. In the better blue water rigging screws (turn buckles, or twiddly bits as I've heard them called ) there is a Si Br threaded bush with SS passing through it.These must not fail ever, the consequences could be bad otherwise and turn well for their whole working life. That's not the case with SS/SS rigging screws which will tend to bind sooner or later without a bit of maintenance.I'd still stick with NS though. Tony At 02:40 PM 10/14/01 -0400, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: George raises an interesting point, you can make a lighter ferrule out ofstainless. A lot of the weight of a ferrule is in the female, and that iswhere the strength is needed too. Suppose you made the female out ofstainless, and the male out of NS or bronze. I wonder if that would eliminatethe galling problem? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 14 14:27:35 2001 f9EJRY413618 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:27:34 - MAA04599; Subject: Re: SS/NS Find those specs on what bronze alloy it was. I would like to know. Adam Vigil Subject: Re: SS/NS I used a special bronze alloy that has most of the same =characteristics as NSAny interest and I will try to dig up the alloy =specs.Ralph Ralph, Find those specs on what bronze alloy = would like to know. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Ralph Moon= Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 = AMSubject: Re: SS/NSI used a special bronze alloy that has most of the same = specs.Ralph from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Oct 14 14:32:25 2001 f9EJWO414005 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:32:24 - Subject: Re: Tom/SS/NS Tony - The problem you are referring to is called Galvanic corrosion. The dissimilar metals in a solution cause an electric current between them, just like a battery. The less noble of the metals is corroded away. That is why you see zinc anodes attached to metal objects that get immersed. Zinc is at the bottom end of the "nobility" scale, and gets eaten away first, so the good stuff doesn't get damaged. The metals must be immersed for this to happen. Think about a jacknife. Brass or NS liners and bolsters are used with stainless blades all the time. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 14 14:34:08 2001 f9EJY7414224 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:34:07 - Subject: Re: Tom/SS/NS Hell yes, definitely heard of it, in fact I have nightmares about it but it's only a problem with salt water, fresh water wont be a problem provided you take normal precautions like parting the rod at day's end and not popping the rod back into the tube with a wet sock as company in the bottom There are enough salts in fresh water to cause corrosion if left long enough but rivers and rain etc wont be a problem for normal fishing rod use and care. As far as Electrolysis goes though it's a tricky question when it comes to SS and bronze because the SS can be passive or active depending on the circumstances meaning it could be the SS that corrodes OR the copper based metal be it Si Br or NS or what ever. I guess if the bronze does the corroding it'd be easy to look after but not so the SS which would pit. This may matter because you wouldn't want the passive alloy as the female because it'd be hard to fix up if you had to. As I say though it wont be a problem in fresh water. Don't EVER mix SS and titanium though, I'd avoid it even in fresh water but in salt you wont believe how quickly they corrode each other. Some early titanium non reversing reels came on the market here with the seat mount made from SS. I saw the result in a single week end. The guy who owned it was a tackle shop owner and he was so pissed about it because he waswarned about it he threw it into 100 fathoms. I could have used the line.... As a rule, the more metals used to make the alloy the faster corrosion will take place, also the further the metals are from each other the faster it happens.You'd know the ancients used to relate to metals as being noble or base and it's not a bad way to look at it here. Gold is noble, lead base. Relatively speaking one metal will be more noble than the other. This also applies with in alloys themselves.Brass corrodes very fast in salt water because copper and zinc (noble copper/base zinc) are a long way apart in the metal pecking order and react with each other in the electrolyte of salt water.Actually brass is downright dangerous in salt water because of de-zincification and there has been more than one boat lost due to brass screws etc failing at bad times. Bronze that mighty alloy is copper and tin (noble copper/pretty close to noble tin) mainly which are reasonably close together as metals go in the nobility stakes.There is a whole world of metallurgy I've just glossed over but that's not a bad rule of thumb. The rigging screws I mentioned earlier need a wash and maybe some lanolin every once in a while and they go as long as the rigging then are normally replaced with new rigging but they have a hard life until then. The main thing about these is they wont gall under stress even though they may corrode a little within their life. Tony At 02:52 PM 10/14/01 -0400, Tony Miller wrote: TomThere is a reaction that is well known to An old Navy Hull technician like myself that is called Electrolysis. It is when two dissimilar metals makecontact. Somehow(and I'm no scientist, So don't quote me on this but,)they get a reaction that corrodes the two metal into powder. Now it might need salt water in the air to speed things along,but I'm sure it happens at a slower rate without saltwater. And it happens quite fast too. Especiallybetween ferrous and non-ferrous metals.Tony Y. you work on boats don't you ? have you ever heard of this?Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from beadman@mac.com Sun Oct 14 14:38:12 2001 f9EJcB414661 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:38:11 - Subject: Re: Tom/SS/NS At 3:31 PM -0400 , 10/14/01, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote about Re:Tom/SS/NS Tony - The problem you are referring to is called Galvanic corrosion. Thedissimilar metals in a solution cause an electric current between them, justlike a battery. The less noble of the metals is corroded away. That is whyyou see zinc anodes attached to metal objects that get immersed. Zinc isatthe bottom end of the "nobility" scale, and gets eaten away first, so thegood stuff doesn't get damaged. The metals must be immersed for this tohappen. Think about a jacknife. Brass or NS liners and bolsters are usedwithstainless blades all the time. Revereware pots and pans have a layer of copper bonded to the outside of the stainless steel. Tom - I was just looking at the www.matweb.com site and saw a couple of alloys called "free-machining" brass and bronze. Would one of these be a possibility to prevent the galling? Claude from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 14 14:46:26 2001 f9EJkO415254 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:46:25 - Subject: Re: Tom/SS/NS Be careful of that free machining bronze, it may be that sintered lg2 stuff. Worse than useless for ferrules. Tony At 03:38 PM 10/14/01 -0400, Claude Freaner wrote: At 3:31 PM -0400 , 10/14/01, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote about Re:Tom/SS/NS Tony - The problem you are referring to is called Galvanic corrosion. Thedissimilar metals in a solution cause an electric current between them,justlike a battery. The less noble of the metals is corroded away. That is whyyou see zinc anodes attached to metal objects that get immersed. Zinc isatthe bottom end of the "nobility" scale, and gets eaten away first, so thegood stuff doesn't get damaged. The metals must be immersed for this tohappen. Think about a jacknife. Brass or NS liners and bolsters are usedwithstainless blades all the time. Revereware pots and pans have a layer of copper bonded to the outside of the stainless steel. Tom - I was just looking at the www.matweb.com site and saw a couple of alloys called "free-machining" brass and bronze. Would one of these be a possibility to prevent the galling? Claude /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from rmoon@ida.net Sun Oct 14 14:53:32 2001 f9EJrV415853 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:53:31 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: SS/NS Special Free cutting POhosphor Bronze rod--uns54400 Chemical Composition : CU 87.75%, ZN 4%, Pb 4%, Tin 4%, Phosphorus 0.25% Mechanical properties : Tensile Strength PSI 68,000, Yield Strength psi 57,000, Elongation % in 2" 20, Rockwell Hardness (B) 80 Physical Properties: Density .321, average coefficient of thermal expansion at 68 degrees to 572 degrees F-0.0000096 Fabricating performanceCold forming goodMachining excellent Specifications A.S.T.M B139 Alloy 544Federal QQ-B750S.A.E CA 544 I last bought it at $29.30 for a 3/8 x 36 Beware, that was in 1980 My NS notes are not too complete, but Tensile Strength is about 75,000, yield strength 62,000, elongation about 10% and Hardness 80. Composition si 65% CU, 15% Ni, 20% Zn. I do have specs for the ferrules I madeincluding machining steps, but since they will have to be graphics anyone interested should contact me off list. Please I have only limited time and ask that you don't ask from rmoon@ida.net Sun Oct 14 14:58:55 2001 f9EJws416245 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:58:54 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: Tom/SS/NS --------------050401090802080208010409 Tom, I have to agree with Tony on this. I think what will actually happen though is not any apparant deterioration of the metal,but only barely perceptible one that will freeze the ferrules together. I don't think i would like to try it.Ralph Tony Miller wrote: Tom There is a reaction that is well known to An old Navy Hull technician like myself that is called Electrolysis. It is when two dissimilar metals make contact. Somehow(and I'm no scientist, So don't quote me on this but,) they get a reaction that corrodes the two metal into powder. Now it might need salt water in the air to speed things along,but I'm sure it happens at a slower rate without saltwater. And it happens quite fast too. Especially between ferrous and non-ferrous metals. Tony Y. you work on boats don't you ? have you ever heard of this? Tony Miller www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html > --------------050401090802080208010409 happenthough is not any apparant deterioration of the metal,but only barelyperceptible try it.Ralph Tony Miller wrote: TomThere is a reaction that is well knownto An old Navy Hull technician like myself that is called Electrolysis.It is when two dissimilar metals makecontact. Somehow(and I'm no scientist, they get a reaction that corrodes thetwo metal into powder. Now it might need salt water in the air to speedthings along,but I'm sure it happens at a slower rate without saltwater.And it happens quite fast too. Especiallybetween ferrous and non-ferrous metals.Tony Y. you work on boats don't you ?have you ever heard of this? www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html --------------050401090802080208010409-- from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Oct 14 15:11:49 2001 f9EKBm416919 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:11:48 - Subject: Re: Tom/SS/NS In a message dated 10/14/1 7:51:09 PM, beadman@mac.com writes: I'm not sure Claude, but it seems possible. I kind of think galling won't be a problem period, but don't know that for sure. They might be worth considering for their maching characteristics in any case. The stuff Ralph mentioned is interesting, and I'm going to look into that. from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 16:00:52 2001 f9EL0p418902 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:00:51 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:00:53 -0400 Subject: Devine? It's amazing what is going on at ebay.Item #31015465465 No picture, but read it.I feel sorry for the person who is about to get taken for $98.00or more (in 25 minutes). I hate to see stuff like this going on. [:(] That rod is probably worth a dollar. At best.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html It's amazing what is going on at =ebay. but = it.I feel sorry for the person who is = taken for $98.00 like this going on. :(That rod is probably worth a dollar. At= best.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 16:02:48 2001 f9EL2l419125 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:02:47 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:02:50 -0400 Subject: correction/sorry correction: item # 1015465465www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html 1015465465www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from seanmcs@iprimus.com.au Sun Oct 14 16:25:45 2001 f9ELPi420153 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:25:45 - Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:25:44 +1000 Subject: Re: Speaking of Test... FILETIME=[C8C423F0:01C154F6] Tony: I can't speak for all waters, but some were opened on 18 May thisyear. The last infections were in the North. Sean Tony Young wrote: It MAY seem as though I'm just stirring the possum a bit here (did you likethat?) but are you actually allowed to get to the water yet due to F&M?Serious question. Tony At 08:26 AM 10/14/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: This all depends on the colour of your neck so don't get your hopes toohigh.Terry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Yeah, but I would have been excluded because I didn't know that. Nowthat Ido, I can join the ranks.Testy, testy. ;o) M-D Nice reply. You could have said "It's in England, any fool knows that!",but that would have been a bit testy eh? Martin Jensen The test is an excellent River in Great Britain not so easy to get apermt to fish there Michael Jojo DeLancier schrieb: Can't say that I have. In an effort to appear ignorant, what/whereisthe Test? M-D ...has anyone on the list fished the Test with a bamboo flyrod? Iwould think that is an ultimate goal worth striving for... Claude /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from rsgould@cmc.net Sun Oct 14 16:34:39 2001 f9ELYc420709 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:34:39 - Subject: Re: Stainless Steel / Nickel Silver Hi to all,In response to your question here's some experience with stainless steel =ferrules: I bought and used a number of stainless steel ferrules from a =company called "The Rod and Gun Shop". They were located at 21 Railroad =Ave. in Middleburg, New York 12122. The company was run by Alex Jamieson=and Howard Bartholomew. They produced a line of hex cane rods designed = you this was back in 1979 and the early 80's but I still have one of the =stainless steel ferrules 12/64" in my inventory. I tested the ferrule =and found it to be non-magnetic as is typical of the 300 series =stainless. I don't know which type stainless they used but I've not had =trouble with galling on any of the ferrules of their's that I have used. =But a big word of caution here. Stainless steel is famous for its =galling characteristics so I would not advise using it without extensive =testing to make sure you've found a particular alloy that doesn't ="stick" and there's little to be gained since we know that nickel silver =works so very well.Ray Gould Subject: Stainless Steel / Nickel Silver I repaired a tip on a friends old South Bend Double Built rod =which he recently inherited. The reel seat also needed repair & being a =machinist he said he would do it himself. He copied the original =exactly, only he substituted stainless steel for nickel silver. I was =surprised to see how attractive it was, just like polished N.S. The cost =per foot for a 1" round was around $7. Does anybody have any experience = Could Ferrules be made out of it? I forget the alloy number he said it = = Hi to all,In response to your question here's = with stainless steel ferrules: I bought and used a number of stainless = ferrules from a company called "The Rod and Gun Shop". They were located = Railroad Ave. in Middleburg, New York 12122. The company was run by Alex = Jamieson and Howard Bartholomew. They produced a line of hex cane rods = this was back in 1979 and the early 80's but I still have one of the = steel ferrules 12/64" in my inventory. I tested the ferrule and found it = non-magnetic as is typical of the 300 series stainless. I don't know = stainless they used but I've not had trouble with galling on any of the = of their's that I have used. But a big word of caution here. Stainless = without extensive testing to make sure you've found a particular alloy = doesn't "stick" and there's little to be gained since we know that = works so very well.Ray Gould ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 = AMSubject: Stainless Steel / = Silver also needed repair & being a machinist he said he would do it = copied the original exactly, only he substituted stainless steel for = N.S. The cost per foot for a 1" round was around $7. Does anybody have = experience with S.S? Could Ferrules be made out of it? I forget = number he said it was, but he did say it was non hardenable, and = = = from rsgould@cmc.net Sun Oct 14 16:37:33 2001 f9ELbX421016 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:37:33 - Subject: Re: Stainless Steel / Nickel Silver Another note about stainless: Since the stainless has been identified as =being one of the non-hardenable types it's most likely one of 300 =series. The 400 hundred series is hardenable.Ray Subject: Stainless Steel / Nickel Silver I repaired a tip on a friends old South Bend Double Built rod =which he recently inherited. The reel seat also needed repair & being a =machinist he said he would do it himself. He copied the original =exactly, only he substituted stainless steel for nickel silver. I was =surprised to see how attractive it was, just like polished N.S. The cost =per foot for a 1" round was around $7. Does anybody have any experience = Could Ferrules be made out of it? I forget the alloy number he said it = = Another note about stainless: Since the= has been identified as being one of the non-hardenable types it's most = one of 300 series. The 400 hundred series is hardenable.Ray ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 = AMSubject: Stainless Steel / = Silver also needed repair & being a machinist he said he would do it = copied the original exactly, only he substituted stainless steel for = N.S. The cost per foot for a 1" round was around $7. Does anybody have = experience with S.S? Could Ferrules be made out of it? I forget = number he said it was, but he did say it was non hardenable, and = = = from channer@frontier.net Sun Oct 14 17:00:14 2001 f9EM0E422102 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:00:14 - Subject: Re: SS/NS Here's a thought, why not just use what has been proven towork???????????john from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 17:13:12 2001 f9EMDB422870 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:13:11 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:13:13 -0400 Subject: Re:SS/NS Yes, I think the general consensus is that N/S is the best material for =ferrules and that is definitely what the customer prefers.While other material is fun to think about, I can't see selling a rod = It's just like the difference between using any cane or Tonkin cane.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Yes, I think the general consensus is = prefers.While other material is fun to think = It's just like the difference between = cane or Tonkin cane.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from channer@frontier.net Sun Oct 14 17:18:26 2001 f9EMIP423262 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:18:25 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:28:05 - Subject: Re: Devine? Tony(and anyone else who gives a s--t);It's DIVINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!jeez, can't anyone spell the name of thiscompany? yeah, Fred made some junk, but he also made some nice rods,too,and generally put a lot more effort into them than most of his era.John Tony Miller wrote: It's amazing what is going on at ebay.Item #31015465465 No picture, but read it.I feel sorry for the person who is about to get taken for $98.00or more (in 25 minutes). I hate to see stuff like this going on. [:(] That rod is probably worth a dollar. At best.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 14 17:28:59 2001 f9EMSw423791 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:28:58 - Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture I am refering to the accepted terminology expressed by The Forest ProductsLab and allthe books I have ever read.Don't try to wriggle out, I am RIGHT and YOU bastards are WRONGTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Just a note to those following this thread. The 'free water' and 'boundwater'Terry is referring to is all considered 'free moisture' at the level Bill and Iaretalking about. Terry is looking at this on the cellular level. Bill and I arelooking at the molecular level. There is a 'sizable' difference. [:-)] Don'tconfusethe two. Rick "T. Ackland" wrote: BILL,you have got it arse about face not me.Free water is the water occupying the cell cavities of green wood and isthefirst to dry out leaving what is called the "fiber saturation point". Waterloss from the cell cavities does not cause wood to shrinkBound water is the water within the cell walls and the last to leave andthiscauses shrinkage. Bound water is what has to be controlled.I suggest you read The Encyclopedia Of Wood by The Forest ProductsLab. In factany good carpentry book will give you this information because anunderstandingof the behavior of lumber is critical and is usually at the very start.I like to be as accurate as possible because bad information stays in thearchives and can mislead. Terry WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Terry, No. I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. The free moisture within ourcane will forever be seeking whatever the average ambient humiditymay be.We will drive this form of moisture out, temporarily, with our heattreating, but that moisture will forever be trying to return. It is by removing bound moisture (during the same heat treatingprocess)that we obtain the only real control we may have over the ultimate"stiffness" of our cane. This form of moisture cannot return,because thecell structures where it used to "live" will have been altered--leavingplasticized bundles of lignens, almost devoid of moisture, behind. Free moisture is called "free" because it remains free to enter and toexit(and it always will). On the other hand, the cellular spaces that used tobe occupied by bound moisture can no longer be occupied. Whetherbamboo orwood, and whether accomplished quickly with heat treating or slowly byaging, this process of driving off the bound water is called "curing," or"seasoning," or "drying." The process does not refer to the amount offreewater that is removed (this always leaves first, and always re- enterslater). It refers, instead, to the bound water that has been driven outandhas left more-or-less permanently altered cell-structures behind. I swear, I don't know what is so confusing about this. This is not thepuzzling part. The puzzling part is the question of what sort ofregimen isbest (or necessary?) for curing our bamboo. Now, for pete's sake, let's move on to something else. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 10:00 PMSubject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Rick,There is no free moisture in the cane by the time we get itTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company whichmakesspecialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following toreport: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants whichare different but the long chains which make up the bulk of thefibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. Thisincludes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbonatoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and boundmoisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all ofthefree moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can crosslink to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually bycreating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibriummoisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to alower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle* Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils toform the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannotcomment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact thatlignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much likeplastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at anymultimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 17:30:16 2001 f9EMUF423989 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:30:15 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:30:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Devine Wow I can't believe I spelled it wrong. Wait a minute yes I can, my =spelling S***S:))Any way I'm not cutting Divine rods Down, I love Divine's they are one =of my favorites and I really don't think they made as much junk as some =would say.:))My point was, how the rod was being sort of misrepresented. But just in case you can'tDevine ,devine ,devine ,devine Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!Just joking man:)) stay good:))Tony Miller www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Wow I can't believe I spelled it wrong. = minute yes I can, my spelling S***S:))Any way I'm not cutting Divine rods = love Divine's they are one of my favorites and I really don't think they = much junk as some would say.:))My point was, how the rod was being = misrepresented.But you will have to excuse my spelling= But just in case youcan'tDevine ,devine ,devine ,devine Ha ha ha= ha ha!!!!!!!!Just joking man:)) stay =good:))Tony Miller www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jbbamboo47@yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 18:23:33 2001 f9ENNW426191 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:23:32 - Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:23:36 PDT Subject: bamboo ferrules thanks to all replys:the female ferrule is on the tipsection my theory was the butt taper would fit betterthis way. also by using a hex fit the idea was tobuild a one piece rod .so would like to use the hexinside if possible. two piece like a one piece.wil trysome suggestions. hex to me is better than a roundferrule maybe or maybe not. your thoughts. jeb __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Oct 14 18:25:48 2001 f9ENPl426502 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:25:47 - Subject: Re: SS/NS In a message dated 10/14/1 10:03:16 PM, channer@frontier.net writes: John - If you had made that argument during the heat treating thread, I would probably agree with you. The fact is, ferrules only "work" in the sense that they will successfully and convienently join the rod sections. In terms of casting, they are awful. Build your favorite taper as a one piece, then tell me how ferrules "work". Anything we can do to get weight or stiffness out of a ferrule seems worthwhile to me. from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 18:30:06 2001 f9ENU6426897 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:30:06 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:30:08 -0400 Subject: Type of wood Can anyone tell me what( wood )would be the most flexible,yet the most least likely to chip or break.Any thoughts? www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Can anyone tell me what( wood )wouldbe = flexible, break.Any thoughts? www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from rextutor@about.com Sun Oct 14 19:04:09 2001 f9F048428187 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:04:09 - (NPlex 5.5.029) Subject: Re: Type of wood Ash then willow gets my vote. Are you making something ? Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 14 19:08:03 2001 f9F082428553 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:08:02 - RAA09037; Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Terry, Was the Forest Products Lab book discussing bamboo? I would like to read itwhat is the title and where can I get a copy? Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture I am refering to the accepted terminology expressed by The ForestProducts Lab and all the books I have ever read.Don't try to wriggle out, I am RIGHT and YOU bastards are WRONGTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Just a note to those following this thread. The 'free water' and 'bound water' Terry is referring to is all considered 'free moisture' at the level Bill and I are talking about. Terry is looking at this on the cellular level. Bill and I are looking at the molecular level. There is a 'sizable' difference. [:-)] Don't confuse the two. Rick "T. Ackland" wrote: BILL,you have got it arse about face not me.Free water is the water occupying the cell cavities of green wood and is the first to dry out leaving what is called the "fiber saturation point". Water loss from the cell cavities does not cause wood to shrinkBound water is the water within the cell walls and the last to leave and this causes shrinkage. Bound water is what has to be controlled.I suggest you read The Encyclopedia Of Wood by The Forest Products Lab. In fact any good carpentry book will give you this information because an understanding of the behavior of lumber is critical and is usually at the very start. I like to be as accurate as possible because bad information stays in the archives and can mislead. Terry WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Terry, No. I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. The free moisture within our cane will forever be seeking whatever the average ambient humidity may be. We will drive this form of moisture out, temporarily, with our heattreating, but that moisture will forever be trying to return. It is by removing bound moisture (during the same heat treating process) that we obtain the only real control we may have over the ultimate"stiffness" of our cane. This form of moisture cannot return, because the cell structures where it used to "live" will have been altered--leaving plasticized bundles of lignens, almost devoid of moisture, behind. Free moisture is called "free" because it remains free to enter and to exit (and it always will). On the other hand, the cellular spaces that used to be occupied by bound moisture can no longer be occupied. Whether bamboo or wood, and whether accomplished quickly with heat treating or slowly by aging, this process of driving off the bound water is called "curing," or "seasoning," or "drying." The process does not refer to the amount of free water that is removed (this always leaves first, and always re-enters later). It refers, instead, to the bound water that has been driven out and has left more-or-less permanently altered cell-structures behind. I swear, I don't know what is so confusing about this. This is not the puzzling part. The puzzling part is the question of what sort of regimen is best (or necessary?) for curing our bamboo. Now, for pete's sake, let's move on to something else. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 10:00 PMSubject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Rick,There is no free moisture in the cane by the time we get itTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company which makes specialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following to report: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants which are different but the long chains which make up the bulk of the fibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. Thisincludes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbon atoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and bound moisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of the free moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can cross link to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually by creating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibrium moisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to a lower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle* Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils to form the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannot comment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact that lignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much like plastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at any multimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Oct 14 19:12:48 2001 f9F0Cl428983 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:12:47 - (authenticated) Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:12:37 -0700 Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture "T. Ackland" wrote: I am refering to the accepted terminology expressed by The ForestProducts Lab and allthe books I have ever read.Don't try to wriggle out, I am RIGHT and YOU bastards are WRONGTerry Aha,There's the Terry we all know and love. This other imposter that washanging aroundalmost had us fooled for a little while. Good to see the real Terry back again. Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from "Marty D. aka \"none" Sun Oct 14 19:24:25 2001 f9F0OO429723 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:24:24 - v4.1.40/v4164. . Clean. Processed in 0.527536 secs); 15 Oct 200100:18:37 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: Devine? Divine made some junk but as you said some are very nice (7 1/2' DivineFairy). I have reset ferrules on 2 Divines in the last couple years. Bothferrule stations were built up with thread. I just picked up an 8'Ambercrombie & Fitch BIC made by Divine that needs a couple tips. I will seeif this one uses a thread spacer. Marty channer wrote: Tony(and anyone else who gives a s--t);It's DIVINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!jeez, can't anyone spell the name of thiscompany? yeah, Fred made some junk, but he also made some nicerods,too,and generally put a lot more effort into them than most of his era.John Tony Miller wrote: It's amazing what is going on at ebay.Item #31015465465 No picture, but read it.I feel sorry for the person who is about to get taken for $98.00or more (in 25 minutes). I hate to see stuff like this going on. [:(] That rod is probably worth a dollar. At best.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from channer@frontier.net Sun Oct 14 19:26:01 2001 f9F0Q0429944 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:26:00 - Subject: Re: SS/NS Tom;Actually, I did. I said something to the effect that the old companiesthat made a living at rodmaking and supported a lot of employees andtheir families all thought that heat treating was worthwhile. They hadthe resources to do the experimenting, so why bother second guessingthem. I have never cast a one piece rod, and frankly, I don't want to,I'm perfectly content the way I am.John(just stuck in a rut) TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/14/1 10:03:16 PM, channer@frontier.net writes: work??????????? >> John - If you had made that argument during the heat treating thread, Iwouldprobably agree with you. The fact is, ferrules only "work" in the sense thatthey will successfully and convienently join the rod sections. In terms ofcasting, they are awful. Build your favorite taper as a one piece, then tellme how ferrules "work".Anything we can do to get weight or stiffness out of a ferrule seemsworthwhile to me. from bob@downandacross.com Sun Oct 14 19:36:31 2001 f9F0aQ400499 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:36:26 - Subject: RE: bamboo ferrules James:Once again, I think the round male slide would work better. It would be acontinuous smooth fit and easier to get a good fit. You could still keepthem hex on the outside.I was thinking about this today...why didn't the Edward's quads have squareslides and female insides. One, they would be harder to fit than round. Two,Maybe the corners would wear down and the fit would change over time. Am Icrazy?As far as bamboo ferrules goes, I see no reason not to do it like the Nunleyway. I think the changes it casues to the taoer are minimal anyway. You arenot going to be removing more than just the corners to make the slide round.Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: bamboo ferrules thanks to all replys:the female ferrule is on the tipsection my theory was the butt taper would fit betterthis way. also by using a hex fit the idea was tobuild a one piece rod .so would like to use the hexinside if possible. two piece like a one piece.wil trysome suggestions. hex to me is better than a roundferrule maybe or maybe not. your thoughts. jeb __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 14 19:39:52 2001 f9F0dp400885 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:39:51 - RAA29080 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:39:55 - Subject: Nickel silver this, Stainless that How about an up to date source as to where to get NS to make ferrules? I =think some of the thought going into using stainless is the readily =available supply. So lets update the archives and have you guys tell us = You know our brothers across the ocean really do not use NS that much on =their fine rods. I believe they are using brass alot and blackening it. Adam Vigil How about an up to date source as to = NS to make ferrules? I think some of the thought going into using = the readily available supply. So lets update the archives and have you = us where to get NS tubing and bar stock. You know our brothers across theocean = not use NS that much on their fine rods. I believe they are using brass = blackening it. AdamVigil from bob@downandacross.com Sun Oct 14 19:45:21 2001 f9F0jK401322 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:45:20 - Subject: RE: Nickel silver this, Stainless that Barstock can be had from Sheffield's Knife Supply in Florida. Very cheap.http://www.sheffieldsupply.com/Tubing? Maybe Chris Bogart has some left.Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 8:42 PM Subject: Nickel silver this, Stainless that How about an up to date source as to where to get NS to make ferrules? Ithink some of the thought going into using stainless is the readilyavailable supply. So lets update the archives and have you guys tell uswhere to get NS tubing and bar stock. You know our brothers across the ocean really do not use NS that much ontheir fine rods. I believe they are using brass alot and blackening it. Adam Vigil Barstock can be had from Sheffield's Knife Supply in Florida. = http://www.sheffieldsupply.com/Tubing? Maybe Chris Bogart has some left. Bob VigilSent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 8:42 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Nickel silver this, = thatHow about an up to date source as to = NS to make ferrules? I think some of the thought going into using = the readily available supply. So lets update the archives and have you = tell us where to get NS tubing and bar stock. You know our brothers across the = not use NS that much on their fine rods. I believe they are using = and blackening it. Adam =Vigil from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 14 19:45:38 2001 f9F0jb401373 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:45:38 - RAA19414 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:45:41 - Subject: water proofing I came across this info read it and lets hear some feedback =http://www.sdsc.edu/tmf/Research/Jeff/LOMWater.html Adam Vigil I came across this info read it and = feedback http://www.s=dsc.edu/tmf/Research/Jeff/LOMWater.html AdamVigil from martinrjensen@home.com Sun Oct 14 19:51:32 2001 f9F0pV401965 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:51:32 - femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:51:31 -0700 Subject: RE: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Glad to see you back Terry. I thought you were sick or something... Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture I am refering to the accepted terminology expressed by The ForestProducts Lab and all the books I have ever read. Don't try to wriggleout, I am RIGHT and YOU bastards are WRONG Terry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Just a note to those following this thread. The 'free water' and 'bound water' Terry is referring to is all considered 'free moisture' at the level Bill and I are talking about. Terry is looking at this on the cellular level. Bill and I are looking at the molecular level. There is a 'sizable' difference. [:-)] Don't confuse the two. Rick "T. Ackland" wrote: BILL,you have got it arse about face not me.Free water is the water occupying the cell cavities of green wood and is the first to dry out leaving what is called the "fiber saturation point". Water loss from the cell cavities does not cause wood to shrink Bound water is the water within the cell walls and the last to leave and this causes shrinkage. Bound water is what has to be controlled. I suggest you read The Encyclopedia Of Wood by The Forest Products Lab. In fact any good carpentry book will give you this information because an understanding of the behavior of lumber is critical and is usually at the very start. I like to be as accurate as possible because bad information stays in the archives and can mislead. Terry WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Terry, No. I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. The free moisture within our cane will forever be seeking whatever the average ambient humidity may be. We will drive this form of moisture out, temporarily, with our heat treating, but that moisture will forever be trying to return. It is by removing bound moisture (during the same heat treating process) that we obtain the only real control we may have over the ultimate "stiffness" of our cane. This form of moisture cannot return, because the cell structures where it used to "live" will have been altered-- leaving plasticized bundles of lignens, almost devoid of moisture, behind. Free moisture is called "free" because it remains free to enter and to exit (and it always will). On the other hand, the cellular spaces that used to be occupied by bound moisture can no longer be occupied. Whether bamboo or wood, and whether accomplished quickly with heat treating or slowly by aging, this process of driving off the bound water is called "curing," or "seasoning," or "drying." The process does not refer to the amount of free water that is removed (this always leaves first, and always re-enters later). It refers, instead, to the bound water that has been driven out and has left more-or- less permanently altered cell-structures behind. I swear, I don't know what is so confusing about this. This is not the puzzling part. The puzzling part is the question of what sort of regimen is best (or necessary?) for curing our bamboo. Now, for pete's sake, let's move on to something else. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 10:00 PMSubject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Rick,There is no free moisture in the cane by the time we get it Terry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a company which makes specialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following toreport: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants which are different but the long chains which make up the bulk of the fibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. This includes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbon atoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and bound moisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of the free moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can cross link to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually by creating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibrium moisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to a lower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle * Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils to form the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannot comment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact that lignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much like plastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at any multimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Sun Oct 14 20:10:51 2001 f9F1Ap402617 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:10:51 - Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:10:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Type of wood FILETIME=[3A9F3B80:01C15516] I would say Osage orange, hickory, ash, or yew. All have been used in =bows. So why is this important? Is there some project we should know about? Jeff I would say Osage orange, hickory, ash,= have been used in bows. So why is this important? Is there some= should know about? Jeff from stoltz10@home.com Sun Oct 14 20:42:34 2001 f9F1gX403337 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:42:33 - femail40.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: Re: Type of wood The other wood that is wonderful for bows and bends nicely is =vine-maple. Tim Subject: Re: Type of wood I would say Osage orange, hickory, ash, or yew. All have been used in =bows. So why is this important? Is there some project we should know about? Jeff The other wood that is wonderful for = nicely is vine-maple. Tim ----- Original Message ----- Schaeffer Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002= PMSubject: Re: Type of wood I would say Osage orange, hickory, = All have been used in bows. So why is this important? Is there = we should know about? Jeff from flytyr@southshore.com Sun Oct 14 20:57:41 2001 f9F1ve403808 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:57:40 - f9F1viT16928 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:57:44 -0500 Subject: 5.00 spools of thread Wow, mention 5.00 spools of thread and get moremessages than anything I have posted before.My binder was made for Metler 500 yd spools ofQuilting thread.I went to the only place in town that I couldorder it.When it came in, it was 4.99 a spool.buying a box of 5 spools. 5.99 each if boughtseparate.That is what you have when you live in a ruralarea.I will refill these spools with the other threadwhen they are empty.Posting this saves me a lot of replies to theother messages. Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from caneman@clnk.com Sun Oct 14 21:07:48 2001 f9F27l404193 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:07:47 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:32:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Type of wood Definitely would say Osage Orange, aka Bois d'arc or as we in the south =call them Horseapple trees. I made a reel seat out of a Bois d'arc root =once... ONLY once. Stuff smokes and throws sparks when it's good and =dry! If you need some, just drive on down and bring a chain saw. I =have a few hundred of them on the farm. Bob Subject: Re: Type of wood I would say Osage orange, hickory, ash, or yew. All have been used in =bows. So why is this important? Is there some project we should know about? Jeff Definitely would say Osage Orange, aka Bois d'arc or= Bob Subject: Re: Type of wood I would say Osage orange, hickory, = All have been used in bows. So why is this important? Is there = we should know about? Jeff from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 14 22:22:30 2001 f9F3MT405759 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:22:30 - for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:22:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Types of wood I think I can answer everybody's question, of what I'm building, in one =postI was thinking with all this talk of ferrules and bamboo ferrules,why =not an exotic wood. I would look cool ,but would it hold up. I assume =since bamboo does that, stabilized wood would work too. And you could =turn it round like a normal ferrule. just curious:)) any thoughts? too =grainy maybeTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html question, of what I'm building, in one postI was thinking with all this talk of = bamboo ferrules,why not an exotic wood. I would look cool ,but would it = I assume since bamboo does that, stabilized wood would work too. And you = turn it round like a normal ferrule. just curious:)) any thoughts? too = maybeTony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 22:47:07 2001 f9F3l6406353 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:47:06 - 14 Oct 2001 20:47:06 PDT Subject: Re: Types of wood i bet that that horse apple wood would hold up! timothy--- Tony Miller wrote: I think I can answer everybody's question, of whatI'm building, in one postI was thinking with all this talk of ferrules andbamboo ferrules,why not an exotic wood. I would lookcool ,but would it hold up. I assume since bamboodoes that, stabilized wood would work too. And youcould turn it round like a normal ferrule. justcurious:)) any thoughts? too grainy maybeTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 14 23:02:26 2001 f9F42O406774 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:02:24 - Subject: Re: Nickel silver this, Stainless that NS for ferrules can be got provided you like getting rod. Doesn't bother me. Tony At 05:42 PM 10/14/01 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote: How about an up to date source as to where to get NS to make ferrules? I think some of the thought going into using stainless is the readily available supply. So lets update the archives and have you guys tell us where to get NS tubing and bar stock. You know our brothers across the ocean really do not use NS that much on their fine rods. I believe they are using brass alot and blackening it. Adam Vigil /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from caneman@clnk.com Sun Oct 14 23:40:33 2001 f9F4eX407519 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:40:33 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:05:10 -0500 Subject: PowerFibers I just finished reading the new issue of PowerFibers www.powerfibers.com .If you haven't downloaded it yet, then this issue is a must to read. It'sfull of fine articles, but there is one that I enjoyed above all the others.It's an article about Tom Morgan.I may be a bit biased (hell, I'm extremely biased, as I count Tom amongmy friends), but if you ever get the chance to go through Manhattan, MT andmeet Tom & Gerri, then don't pass up the chance. You'll never meet finerpeople or more gracious hosts, anywhere you may go. Reading this articlewill give you great insight to what kind of gentleman Tom is, but nothingthat could be written could do justice to the man. He is nothing short ofoutstanding. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from ajthramer@hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 01:53:06 2001 f9F6r5411584 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 01:53:05 - Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:53:04 -0700 Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:53:04 GMT Subject: Re: SS/NS FILETIME=[0A2345C0:01C15546] Oh No! We can't do that, we might get the occasional rod built or something. The wheel must not only be reinvented, it must be dithered about endlessly.A.J. From: channer CC: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: SS/NSDate: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:01:49 -0600 Here's a thought, why not just use what has been proven towork???????????john _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Oct 15 05:18:37 2001 f9FAIa413366 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 05:18:36 - f9FAIZe57536; Subject: Re: bamboo ferrules Am I getting this right - you have made the ferrule hexagonal INSIDE andOUTSIDE ? Wow! Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: bamboo ferrules made a rod useing bamboo ferrules. there hex inside anout. the fit was fine the problem is after a few caststhey loosen. any ideas. jeb __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from harms1@pa.net Mon Oct 15 06:30:07 2001 f9FBU1414406 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:30:06 - Subject: Re: Type of wood I'm wondering about Osage Orange. It grows freely in hedge-rows, both asvery large bushes and small trees, but I don't believe you will find itavailable commercially. Native Americans, I've been told, used it forfashioning ribs in their canoes and also for buildng bows. The wood isextremely dense, with long, springy fibers, and is fairly easy to workbefore it becomes "cured." After that, however, look out! Osage orange,when fully seasoned, is more like rock than wood, and will easily burncutting tools. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Type of wood The other wood that is wonderful for bows and bends nicely is vine-maple. Tim----- Original Message -----From: Jeff Schaeffer Subject: Re: Type of wood I would say Osage orange, hickory, ash, or yew. All have been used inbows. So why is this important? Is there some project we should know about? Jeff from harms1@pa.net Mon Oct 15 06:36:02 2001 f9FBZu414704 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:36:01 - Subject: Re: Type of wood As an afterthought, I am wondering, too, if using a wood for ferrulematerial that is different from bamboo itself might cause problems inretaining a proper fit with the male slide. The issue here might be whetheror not the wood ferrule in question will expand/contract in the sameproportion as the bamboo slide. Probably, one would want to experiment on ascrap,test-piece, subjecting the joint, repeatedly,to high humidity and thento drying conditions. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Type of wood The other wood that is wonderful for bows and bends nicely is vine-maple. Tim----- Original Message -----From: Jeff Schaeffer Subject: Re: Type of wood I would say Osage orange, hickory, ash, or yew. All have been used inbows. So why is this important? Is there some project we should know about? Jeff from harms1@pa.net Mon Oct 15 06:56:18 2001 f9FBuC415177 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:56:17 - Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Terry, Holy Cow! I'm thinking now I'm gonna go straight to Hell for SURE!!! Iwonder if Dante assigned a special circle for us infidels who believe thatdried bundles of lignens can no longer absorb water. Harry Boyd, help me out here! Can you perform last rites? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture I am refering to the accepted terminology expressed by The ForestProducts Lab and all the books I have ever read.Don't try to wriggle out, I am RIGHT and YOU bastards are WRONGTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Just a note to those following this thread. The 'free water' and 'bound water' Terry is referring to is all considered 'free moisture' at the level Bill and I are talking about. Terry is looking at this on the cellular level. Bill and I are looking at the molecular level. There is a 'sizable' difference. [:-)] Don't confuse the two. Rick from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Mon Oct 15 06:57:59 2001 f9FBvw415331 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:57:58 - Subject: RE: Need some help Thanks, Heat worked, it popped off and I was able to replace and repair my rod, Pete -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Need some help heat will break the bond.Steve I have an old cane blank I built - I used 5 minute epoxy forferrules. (Left over from plastic rod building days)Does anyone know of away to remove these epoxied on ferrules? The fit isloose from male to female and I want to replace, if unable to remove anygood suggestions on tightening this connection? Thanks, Peter from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 15 07:24:16 2001 f9FCOG416101 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:24:16 - Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Adam,there are two books to look out for. "Wood as an Engineering Material" and"TheEncyclopedia of Wood", both are basically the same, the former being earlier.They are both about wood, there is no technical information on bamboo, saveforperhaps some issued by basement technologists.There are excellent articles on the behavior of wood and why it behaves so.Indepth discussions on adhesives, impregnating etc. The books are written forengineers and architects not rodmakers, but most of the information is stillpertinent to usCane and wood behave the same regarding moistureTerry Adam Vigil wrote: Terry, Was the Forest Products Lab book discussing bamboo? I would like to readitwhat is the title and where can I get a copy? Adam----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: WILLIAM HARMS ; Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 3:30 PMSubject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture I am refering to the accepted terminology expressed by The ForestProducts Lab and all the books I have ever read.Don't try to wriggle out, I am RIGHT and YOU bastards are WRONGTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Just a note to those following this thread. The 'free water' and 'bound water' Terry is referring to is all considered 'free moisture' at the level Bill and I are talking about. Terry is looking at this on the cellular level. Bill and I are looking at the molecular level. There is a 'sizable' difference. [:-)] Don't confuse the two. Rick "T. Ackland" wrote: BILL,you have got it arse about face not me.Free water is the water occupying the cell cavities of green wood and is the first to dry out leaving what is called the "fiber saturation point". Water loss from the cell cavities does not cause wood to shrinkBound water is the water within the cell walls and the last to leave and this causes shrinkage. Bound water is what has to be controlled.I suggest you read The Encyclopedia Of Wood by The Forest Products Lab. In fact any good carpentry book will give you this information because an understanding of the behavior of lumber is critical and is usually at the very start. I like to be as accurate as possible because bad information stays in the archives and can mislead. Terry WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Terry, No. I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. The free moisture within our cane will forever be seeking whatever the average ambienthumidity may be. We will drive this form of moisture out, temporarily, with our heattreating, but that moisture will forever be trying to return. It is by removing bound moisture (during the same heat treating process) that we obtain the only real control we may have over the ultimate"stiffness" of our cane. This form of moisture cannot return, because the cell structures where it used to "live" will have been altered--leaving plasticized bundles of lignens, almost devoid of moisture, behind. Free moisture is called "free" because it remains free to enter and to exit (and it always will). On the other hand, the cellular spaces that used to be occupied by bound moisture can no longer be occupied. Whether bamboo or wood, and whether accomplished quickly with heat treating orslowly by aging, this process of driving off the bound water is called "curing," or "seasoning," or "drying." The process does not refer to theamount of free water that is removed (this always leaves first, and always re-enters later). It refers, instead, to the bound water that has been driven out and has left more-or-less permanently altered cell-structures behind. I swear, I don't know what is so confusing about this. This is not the puzzling part. The puzzling part is the question of what sort of regimen is best (or necessary?) for curing our bamboo. Now, for pete's sake, let's move on to something else. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 10:00 PMSubject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Rick,There is no free moisture in the cane by the time we get itTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Grilling my chemical engineer wife, who works at a companywhich makes specialty pulps (cotton and wood cellulose), I have the following to report: * Cellulose is cellulose. There are other things in the plants which are different but the long chains which make up the bulk of the fibers in woody plants is very, very similar in form. Thisincludes, wood, cotton, and bamboo.* Cellulose is a polymer composed of Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Carbon atoms arranged in long chains of glucose monomer units* There are three hydroxyl groups per monomer unit* Cellulose holds two types of moisture: free moisture and bound moisture* Heating even in moderate amounts can drive off much or all of the free moisture* When you heat cellulose 'bone dry', the hydroxyl groups can cross link to other hydroxyl groups or other components usually by creating ester linkages with 'double bonds'* It is well known that drying cellulose changes its equilibrium moisture which means once dried, the cellulose equilibrates to a lower moisture level than 'never dried' cellulose* Physically such cellulose becomes stiffer and more brittle* Lignins are the 'glue' which bind the cellulose microfibrils to form the woody structure* Lignins are such heterogenous substances that my wife cannot comment on the lignins found in bamboo other than the fact that lignins can and do crosslink as well when heated becoming much like plastics and will also retard and prevent the reabsorption of water Check it out in any major cellulose chemistry source book or at any multimillion dollar paper and pulp mill processing plant. Good luck. Rick C. from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 15 07:30:22 2001 f9FCUL416499 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:30:21 - Subject: Re: water proofing 0EC674792279947255681834" --------------0EC674792279947255681834 Adam,I think what rodmakers would be interested in is the prevention ofseasonal moisture changes not full water proofing.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: I came across this info read it and lets hear some feedbackhttp://www.sdsc.edu/tmf/Research/Jeff/LOMWater.html Adam Vigil --------------0EC674792279947255681834 Adam,I think what rodmakers would be interested in is the prevention ofseasonal moisture changes not full water proofing.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: I Vigil --------------0EC674792279947255681834-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Oct 15 08:11:16 2001 f9FDBA417651 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:11:11 - (authenticated) Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:10:26 -0700 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Bill, I think the Last Rites I performed on this thread a few days ago should besufficient to cover you. If you're still worried, say a coupla Hail Hoagies,take two aspirin and call me in the morning. Harry PS - I know this isn't PC. I hope none of you take this too seriously. If youdo, I can be persuaded to do exorcisms, and am always willing to pass theplate. WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Terry, Holy Cow! I'm thinking now I'm gonna go straight to Hell for SURE!!! Iwonder if Dante assigned a special circle for us infidels who believe thatdried bundles of lignens can no longer absorb water. Harry Boyd, help me out here! Can you perform last rites? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Cc: "WILLIAM HARMS" ; Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 6:30 PMSubject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture I am refering to the accepted terminology expressed by The ForestProducts Lab and all the books I have ever read.Don't try to wriggle out, I am RIGHT and YOU bastards are WRONGTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Just a note to those following this thread. The 'free water' and 'bound water' Terry is referring to is all considered 'free moisture' at the level Bill and I are talking about. Terry is looking at this on the cellular level. Bill and I are looking at the molecular level. There is a 'sizable' difference. [:-)] Don't confuse the two. Rick -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Oct 15 08:20:12 2001 f9FDKB418427 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:20:11 - (authenticated) for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:20:03 -0700 Subject: Glue thickness Friends, Just wondering about something. I changed to Epon abouttwo or three dozen rods ago, and have no complaints. ButI'm wondering about one thing. I glued another Payne 101over the weekend. Before gluing, I carefully measured everystation. For once, I had it as close to perfect as I canget a rod. The tips were consistently .001" oversize toallow for final sanding, and within .0005" the same flat toflat measurements. Butts were also .001" oversize, andwithin .002" from flat to flat. After gluing and final sanding, everything is stillalmost perfectly consistent, but the strips have "grown" by.004" - .005" Can it be possible that Epon adds that muchto my measurements? Seems to be the only possibleexplanation. Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Mon Oct 15 10:37:09 2001 f9FFb8424605 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:37:09 - Subject: Wrapping tension How much tension do you put on silk thread as you wrap on snake guides?Can you put too much tension on the thread? Pete from baconrod@gsmrinc.com Mon Oct 15 10:48:05 2001 f9FFm4425616 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:48:04 - for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:48:08 - Subject: Payne 200 series --Message-Boundary-2034 Here is the Payne 200 series tapers. These tapers are from rods both measured and built. See attached spread sheet.Best Hal. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Oct 15 10:51:03 2001 f9FFou425986 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:50:57 - Subject: Re: Type of wood The year before last a bloke arrived at the Greyling clubhouse Sunday afternoon to see what he'd just missed after everybody left. I was still there as was Don Burns.The person was a back to basics bower and had an Osage Orange bow in the making as well as one a few years old. The change in colour is significant and the wood is hard.Very interesting timber. He was using a draw knife, spoke shave and pocket knife to make the bow which looked easy to work provided you can use adraw knife which is something worth learning by the way. It _looked_ very closely grained without any knots and only slight figuring. Wish we had it here.It's density dry is about 950 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 177 MPa dry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 13, max crushing strength MPa dry is 85. I have no idea of what you're needing this wood for but what about Lignum- vitae? It's used as bearing blocks and is self lubricating. It's hardness is legendary.Once used some as the bearing block for the tiller of an old schooner. We used a piece of it about 6" round and 5 feet long. Only leading hands were allowed near it with cutting tools because of it's cost. It is expensive but you can get it in quite large sizes still.I have no specs on this other than max crushing strength MPa dry is 79. Interesting and agrees with what Bill said about Osage Orange's hardness by comparison. American White OakIt's density dry is about 750 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 105 MPa dry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 12, max crushing strength MPa dry is 51. American White AshIt's density dry is about 700 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 139 MPa dry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 23, max crushing strength MPa dry is 78. Tony At 07:29 AM 10/15/01 -0400, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: I'm wondering about Osage Orange. It grows freely in hedge-rows, both asvery large bushes and small trees, but I don't believe you will find itavailable commercially. Native Americans, I've been told, used it forfashioning ribs in their canoes and also for buildng bows. The wood isextremely dense, with long, springy fibers, and is fairly easy to workbefore it becomes "cured." After that, however, look out! Osage orange,when fully seasoned, is more like rock than wood, and will easily burncutting tools. cheers, Bill /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from if6were9@bellsouth.net Mon Oct 15 11:43:30 2001 f9FGhT429946 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:43:29 - Subject: Re: Type of wood Osage orange is available from Woodcrafters in both sticks and bowl blanks. itis also a (semi) regular offering on ebay. I've got several chunks and haveturned a couple of inserts from it and it is different looking, but the folksthat picked it out of my stock were very happy with the finished product. Ifanyone is interested, I've got a 6 by 6 by 2 inch chunk I'd be happy to trade. Tony Young wrote: The year before last a bloke arrived at the Greyling clubhouse Sundayafternoon to see what he'd just missed after everybody left. I was stillthere as was Don Burns.The person was a back to basics bower and had an Osage Orange bow in themaking as well as one a few years old. The change in colour is significantand the wood is hard.Very interesting timber. He was using a draw knife, spoke shave andpocketknife to make the bow which looked easy to work provided you can use adrawknife which is something worth learning by the way. It _looked_ veryclosely grained without any knots and only slight figuring. Wish we had ithere.It's density dry is about 950 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 177 MPadry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 13, max crushing strength MPa dry is85. I have no idea of what you're needing this wood for but what aboutLignum- vitae? It's used as bearing blocks and is self lubricating. It'shardness is legendary.Once used some as the bearing block for the tiller of an old schooner. Weused a piece of it about 6" round and 5 feet long. Only leading hands wereallowed near it with cutting tools because of it's cost. It is expensivebut you can get it in quite large sizes still.I have no specs on this other than max crushing strength MPa dry is79. Interesting and agrees with what Bill said about Osage Orange'shardness by comparison. American White OakIt's density dry is about 750 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 105 MPadry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 12, max crushing strength MPa dry is51. American White AshIt's density dry is about 700 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 139 MPadry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 23, max crushing strength MPa dry is78. Tony At 07:29 AM 10/15/01 -0400, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: I'm wondering about Osage Orange. It grows freely in hedge-rows, both asvery large bushes and small trees, but I don't believe you will find itavailable commercially. Native Americans, I've been told, used it forfashioning ribs in their canoes and also for buildng bows. The wood isextremely dense, with long, springy fibers, and is fairly easy to workbefore it becomes "cured." After that, however, look out! Osage orange,when fully seasoned, is more like rock than wood, and will easily burncutting tools. cheers, Bill /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Mon Oct 15 11:54:46 2001 f9FGsj400792 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:54:45 - Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:54:44 +0100 Subject: Re: Type of wood Greenheart and ash were the favourites of the 'old' rodmakers..Paul from alan.grombacher@pioneer.com Mon Oct 15 12:08:33 2001 f9FH8W401650 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:08:32 - rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:08:18 -0400 id ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:08:18 -0500 Subject: RE: Type of wood Hey Folks, Osage orange was used by the First Americans for making bows, tomahawk,clubhandles (and I suppose 1st Canadians too). It was never used for canoeconstruction - think spruce. Spruce is/was a lot easier to work with, it'spliable nature lent itself to be of better use for the planking, ribs, etc.I helped a guy cut/split/build a 3 strand fence from Osage once in Nebraska.If you have spent any time with Osage, you know why it makes a remarkablewood for bows, tool handles, and duck calls. It makes a great fence post,but is hard on cutting tools, and is best worked green if you are makingposts. Birch bark was the favored outer cover, while in some parts of the US - hickory was also used. Hickory was a poor substitute, and wasn't used ifbirch was nearby. Birch bark remained supreme until the advent ofwood/canvas canoes. The fur trade used a combination of wooden boats andbirch bark canoes. Cheers, Alberta Al from stoltz10@home.com Mon Oct 15 12:20:31 2001 f9FHKU402378 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:20:30 - femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: Re: Type of wood I do not know about making ferrules, but I have made several bows. WithOsage you must follow the growth ring in order for the bow not to break. Itseems to me that in making a ferrule you would be violating the growth ringand they to would fail. Another wood that used to be used to make self- bowswas leomon wood and it has no growth rings to violate... just a thought. Tim----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Type of wood Osage orange is available from Woodcrafters in both sticks and bowl blanks. it is also a (semi) regular offering on ebay. I've got several chunks and have turned a couple of inserts from it and it is different looking, but the folks that picked it out of my stock were very happy with the finished product. If anyone is interested, I've got a 6 by 6 by 2 inch chunk I'd be happy to trade. Tony Young wrote: The year before last a bloke arrived at the Greyling clubhouse Sundayafternoon to see what he'd just missed after everybody left. I was stillthere as was Don Burns.The person was a back to basics bower and had an Osage Orange bow inthemaking as well as one a few years old. The change in colour is significant and the wood is hard.Very interesting timber. He was using a draw knife, spoke shave and pocket knife to make the bow which looked easy to work provided you can use a draw knife which is something worth learning by the way. It _looked_ veryclosely grained without any knots and only slight figuring. Wish we had it here.It's density dry is about 950 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 177MPadry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 13, max crushing strength MPa dry is 85. I have no idea of what you're needing this wood for but what aboutLignum- vitae? It's used as bearing blocks and is self lubricating. It'shardness is legendary.Once used some as the bearing block for the tiller of an old schooner. We used a piece of it about 6" round and 5 feet long. Only leading hands were allowed near it with cutting tools because of it's cost. It is expensivebut you can get it in quite large sizes still.I have no specs on this other than max crushing strength MPa dry is79. Interesting and agrees with what Bill said about Osage Orange'shardness by comparison. American White OakIt's density dry is about 750 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 105 MPa dry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 12, max crushing strength MPa dry is 51. American White AshIt's density dry is about 700 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 139 MPa dry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 23, max crushing strength MPa dry is 78. Tony At 07:29 AM 10/15/01 -0400, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: I'm wondering about Osage Orange. It grows freely in hedge-rows, both as very large bushes and small trees, but I don't believe you will find itavailable commercially. Native Americans, I've been told, used it forfashioning ribs in their canoes and also for buildng bows. The wood isextremely dense, with long, springy fibers, and is fairly easy to workbefore it becomes "cured." After that, however, look out! Osage orange, when fully seasoned, is more like rock than wood, and will easily burncutting tools. cheers, Bill /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Oct 15 12:35:01 2001 f9FHYx403459 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:35:00 - Subject: Re: Wet Bad, Dry Good I thought I had a reference for this wet/dry wood stuff packed away somewhere and while looking for the specs re. Osage Orange I found it.The book is called Wood In Australia by Keith Bootle ISBN 0 07 451047 9.It's a very good book which uses many references Terry suggested we all aquatint ourselves with as well laboratory and field work conducted by the CSIRO who is basically the scientific body of Aust, yes, we have one.In the section re. AIR drying of timber there are several references about free and combined water and the difficulty in drying wood these present these problems mainly being splitting, collapse, checking and warping during drying, not really a problem with us with bamboo and are a bit disjointed to be able to relate them here in any meaningful way but there is a graph which shows that after wood has been dried at a high enough temp to drive out the combined water the wood is never able to regain it's ability to hold moisture to the same degree as before because the ambient air moisture is always altering and it changes too quickly for the wood to respond fast enough. It's only a few percent but it does appear that way. Remember this is AIR dried or conventionally kiln dried timber.As I wrote the references are a bit disjointed and the above should be read in conjunction with below. Here and possibly elsewhere there is now a tendency to use high temperature drying. This does two things, obviously it drys the wood but also because of the practice of growing fast growing pine trees on land that used to have hardwoods and which are made to grow even faster by feeding them at gun point with nutrients which kill our trout in run off and cause algae blooms by the way the trees develop savage twists when sawn and dried.The section on high temperature drying is way too long to transcribe here but I will write the bare relative points missing some of the wends and whiles relating to pine in particular and hope Keith doesn't subscribe to this list. /***********************************/Keith sez:If the temp of the wood is heightened AND raised well above boiling point at the stage when it's moisture content is high the various wood components are softened. Lignin, the essential binding material starts to soften at about 90c. /**** comment by me at this pointAt this stage it goes on about keeping the pine restrained so the outcome is gun barrel straight poles. We do the same when we bind the strip In the case of the pine he is referring to in the book the kiln is then allowed to re humidify slowly to prevent sudden cracks.We don't need to do this because of the small cross sections involved.*****/ Back to Keith who sez:The result of this technique means small plantation thinings can be used in structural work (due to the fact they can be made to remain straight, ty)Some reduction of strength may occur but it is not of significance for use in house framing (remember we're talking pine here) /**** comment by me at this pointHere's the bit I like*****/ Back to Keith who sez:Drying at high temperature tends to reduce the hygroscopicity of wood and this improves it's dimensional stability in service. That's about it except it goes on to say this is because the tannins alter, volatile oils alter all of which are non reversible. They can certainly be made wet again but never as wet, just the boring stuff that's been said already. I know bamboo isn't wood but in the respects of the above I think the difference is moot. The point is the structure has been chemically and mechanically altered.Also, the dif between soft woods and hard woods isn't the degree to which it hurts if you are hit in the head with a piece of it, it's the cell structure so saying bamboo isn't wood so the above can't be related to it is almost the same as saying pine (soft wood mostly ) isn't wood either because it's different at a cellular level to oak (hardwood).I've been told, possibly wrongly the "soft" balsa is a hardwood and the "hard" balsa is a soft wood.I'm NOT saying bamboo should be considered wood as well, I'm saying the materials making the three structures up are close enough in their makeup and properties to have parallels which seems to be born out in the field.Anybody with the interest and microscope could easily cut a slide section and see how the cells compare. It'd be interesting to know if bamboo is closer in some ways to either hard wood or soft wood than the woods are to each other. Tony from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Oct 15 12:39:14 2001 f9FHdB403909 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:39:12 - Subject: Re: Type of wood If this is for ferrule making how about apple or European Pear? Tony At 10:12 AM 10/15/01 -0700, Tim Stoltz wrote: I do not know about making ferrules, but I have made several bows. WithOsage you must follow the growth ring in order for the bow not to break. Itseems to me that in making a ferrule you would be violating the growth ringand they to would fail. Another wood that used to be used to make self- bowswas leomon wood and it has no growth rings to violate... just a thought. Tim----- Original Message -----From: "Custom Built Fishing Rods" Cc: Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 9:38 AMSubject: Re: Type of wood Osage orange is available from Woodcrafters in both sticks and bowl blanks. it is also a (semi) regular offering on ebay. I've got several chunks and have turned a couple of inserts from it and it is different looking, but the folks that picked it out of my stock were very happy with the finished product. If anyone is interested, I've got a 6 by 6 by 2 inch chunk I'd be happy to trade. Tony Young wrote: The year before last a bloke arrived at the Greyling clubhouse Sundayafternoon to see what he'd just missed after everybody left. I was stillthere as was Don Burns.The person was a back to basics bower and had an Osage Orange bow inthemaking as well as one a few years old. The change in colour is significant and the wood is hard.Very interesting timber. He was using a draw knife, spoke shave and pocket knife to make the bow which looked easy to work provided you can usea draw knife which is something worth learning by the way. It _looked_ veryclosely grained without any knots and only slight figuring. Wish we had it here.It's density dry is about 950 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 177MPadry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 13, max crushing strength MPadry is 85. I have no idea of what you're needing this wood for but what aboutLignum- vitae? It's used as bearing blocks and is self lubricating. It'shardness is legendary.Once used some as the bearing block for the tiller of an old schooner. We used a piece of it about 6" round and 5 feet long. Only leading hands were allowed near it with cutting tools because of it's cost. It is expensivebut you can get it in quite large sizes still.I have no specs on this other than max crushing strength MPa dry is79. Interesting and agrees with what Bill said about Osage Orange'shardness by comparison. American White OakIt's density dry is about 750 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 105 MPa dry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 12, max crushing strength MPadry is 51. American White AshIt's density dry is about 700 kg/cu meter, modulus of rupture is 139 MPa dry, modulus of elasticity dry GPa is 23, max crushing strength MPadry is 78. Tony At 07:29 AM 10/15/01 -0400, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: I'm wondering about Osage Orange. It grows freely in hedge-rows,both as very large bushes and small trees, but I don't believe you will find itavailable commercially. Native Americans, I've been told, used it forfashioning ribs in their canoes and also for buildng bows. The wood isextremely dense, with long, springy fibers, and is fairly easy to workbefore it becomes "cured." After that, however, look out! Osage orange, when fully seasoned, is more like rock than wood, and will easily burncutting tools. cheers, Bill /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from ttalsma@macatawa.org Mon Oct 15 13:03:40 2001 f9FI3e405239 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:03:40 - id ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:57:41 -0400 id TH24NN9S; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:57:35 -0400 Subject: Silk Thread All, What size silk are all of you using for your wraps? I've made a few changes to the tips site, thanks to all for the binder,beveller, etc photos. Keep them coming!-- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htm genealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm >Fromcaneman@clnk.com Mon Oct 15 13:33:21 2001 Received: from Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:58:00 -0500 Message-ID:From: "Bob Nunley" References:Subject: Re: Silk Thread Date: Mon, MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 caneman@clnk.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENPearsalls Gossamer, which is relatively close to a 6/0. Keep a bottle ofaspirin handy! Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker Custom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ---- - "Rodmakers List" Sent: Monday, October 15,2001 1:00 PM Subject: Silk Thread All, What size silk are all of you using for your wraps? I've made a few changes to the tips site, thanks to all for the binder,beveller, etc photos. Keep them coming!--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from dannyt@frisurf.no Mon Oct 15 13:41:48 2001 f9FIfh407591 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:41:44 - for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:41:36+0200 (MET DST)User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Type of wood I have a knife with a handle made of European plum three, and it is veryhard, good looking too..........danny If this is for ferrule making how about apple or European Pear? Tony from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Oct 15 14:04:49 2001 f9FJ4i408918 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:04:44 - Subject: Re: Type of wood Osage Orange AKA Ironwood Osage Orange AKA from ajthramer@hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 14:05:32 2001 f9FJ5V409040 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:05:31 - Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:05:31 -0700 Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:05:31 GMT Subject: Re: Silk Thread FILETIME=[5C6085D0:01C155AC] Pearsalls Naples, Gossamer for tipping.A.J. From: Todd Talsma Subject: Silk ThreadDate: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:00:37 -0400 All, What size silk are all of you using for your wraps? I've made a few changes to the tips site, thanks to all for the binder,beveller, etc photos. Keep them coming!--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from ajthramer@hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 14:11:22 2001 f9FJBL409629 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:11:21 - Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:11:21 -0700 Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:11:21 GMT Subject: Re: Wrapping tension FILETIME=[2D05E9F0:01C155AD] Too much tension on the silk can make it difficult to get the spar varnish to penetrate. Not immpossible, it just takes more care and a little rubbing to get the varnish to thoroughly saturate the thread.A.J. From: "Peter Van Schaack" Subject: Wrapping tensionDate: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:37:33 -0400 How much tension do you put on silk thread as you wrap on snake guides?Can you put too much tension on the thread? Pete _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from ttalsma@macatawa.org Mon Oct 15 14:22:38 2001 f9FJMc410565 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:22:38 - id ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:16:42 -0400 id TH24NN08; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:16:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Silk Thread At the request of some, I've added a "What's New" page to the tipssite. It will contain links to the changes that have been made to thesite over the last few updates. Thanks to those who reminded me to dothis. Todd Talsma wrote: All, What size silk are all of you using for your wraps? I've made a few changes to the tips site, thanks to all for the binder,beveller, etc photos. Keep them coming!--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htm genealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm >Fromrzimmerman@kcds.net Mon Oct 15 14:49:45 2001 Received: from f9FJni412466 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:49:48 -0500 Message-ID:From: "Randy Zimmerman" Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I have 2 huge Osage Orangetrees hanging over the edges of my house. They are commonly called hedgetrees in this part of the country. Were originally planted by farmers to makefence rows. They are considered a menace now in fallow fields. Are spread bybird and squirrels. The "hedge balls" (fruits) can get quite large! The femaletree at the back of the house has balls that weigh up to 5 or 6 pounds. Theyfall off in the fall (now). In fact, last night we were bombarded by several.Some of them "walk their way down the back deck stairs, sounds like anelephant coming in. at any rate ya'all can come and get all the "hedge" youwant in this part of the world! > from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Mon Oct 1515:10:15 2001 Received: from hotmail.com (f66.law10.hotmail.com Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:10:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.247.66.141] From: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Wrapping tension Date: Mon, 15 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 jbbamboo@hotmail.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENPeter: building graphite rods the tension does matter and you can actually damagethe blank if to much tension is used. When I first started building bamboorods I used a lot of tension on the thread. What this really led to was a overlyslow wrapping process. I think that nearly all builder's started out using quitea bit of tension and as time progressed, they've slowly learned to lighten up abit. This makes the wrapping process go faster as you'll find out that youactually have better control of your hands when using less tension. Tightwraps don't make the guide's stay on better, that's done by the varnish. download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Oct 15 15:11:34 2001 f9FKBX414599 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 , "Rodmakers" 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN HiHarry, The .005" oversize after gluing is what should be expected whetherepon or urac is used. It's easier to understand if you make an enlargeddrawing of the cross section of the rod showing the 6 strips and thethickness of each of the glue layers. Using a glue layer thickness of 0.001it's apparent that the two horizontal joints add 0.001" total to the flat toflat vertical dimension but the two inclined surfaces add 0.002" each to theflat to flat vertical dimension giving a total of 0.005". Ray ----- Original Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 6:19 AMSubject: Glue thickness Friends, Just wondering about something. I changed to Epon abouttwo or three dozen rods ago, and have no complaints. ButI'm wondering about one thing. I glued another Payne 101over the weekend. Before gluing, I carefully measured everystation. For once, I had it as close to perfect as I canget a rod. The tips were consistently .001" oversize toallow for final sanding, and within .0005" the same flat toflat measurements. Butts were also .001" oversize, andwithin .002" from flat to flat. After gluing and final sanding, everything is stillalmost perfectly consistent, but the strips have "grown" by.004" - .005" Can it be possible that Epon adds that muchto my measurements? Seems to be the only possibleexplanation. Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Oct 15 15:18:55 2001 f9FKIs415551 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:18:54 - (authenticated) Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:18:34 -0700 Rodmakers List-serv Subject: Re: Glue thickness Taylor, What a simple, elegant solution. I'll give it a try!! Thanks,Harry taylor hogan wrote: Harry -Why not glue up to pieces of flat material of known thickness? This wouldremove the possibility of gaps or other geometric problems, including, Ihate to say swelling due to moisture absorption. I would be interested inthe result.Periodically checking the thickness could depict if the change happensduring drying. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 15:47:29 2001 f9FKlS417257 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:47:28 - Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:47:25 -0700 Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:47:24 GMT Subject: Re: Glue thickness FILETIME=[9862BBD0:01C155BA] Harry: planing my strips. I don't allow anything for the sanding. A good way to check masking tape. Put the tape on tightly next to each station and then put tapenext to the first tape wraps, leaving enough room to measure the rod at you're doing. Rodmakers Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Oct 15 16:35:46 2001 f9FLZj420030 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:35:45 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: Type of Wood American Hornbeam (ironwood) would be an interesting choice for ferrules. It has a white wood, is very dense, self-lubricating and often used for plane soles, tool handles, etc..-- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ >Fromnsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Oct 15 16:36:54 2001 Received: from f9FLar420205 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:33:22 -0300 Message-ID: Date:Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:40:34 -0400 From: Shawn PineoOrganization: New Scotland Fly Rods X-Mailer: ttalsma@macatawa.org CC: Rodmakers List Subject: Re: Silk Thread References: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Pearsalls Gossamer! ShawnTodd Talsma wrote: All, What size silk are all of you using for your wraps? I've made a few changes to the tips site, thanks to all for the binder,beveller, etc photos. Keep them coming!--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from jmpio@nhbm.com Mon Oct 15 16:39:51 2001 f9FLdo420637 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:39:50 - id ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:43:30 -0600 Subject: RE: Type of Wood The "ironwood" I'm familiar with comes from the desert southwest and is avery dark brown. I don't know the species of tree, but the stuff isincredibly dense, almost poreless, but perhaps a bit brittle. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Type of Wood American Hornbeam (ironwood) would be an interesting choice for ferrules. It has a white wood, is very dense, self-lubricating and often used for plane soles, tool handles, etc..-- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ >Fromrcurry@ttlc.net Mon Oct 15 17:15:26 2001 Received: from serv- f9FMFO422847 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:15:41 -0000 Received: from d-71.man.ttlc.net (HELO ttlc.net) -0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Oct 200118:20:00 -0400 From: Reed Curry User-Agent:Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108 jmpio@nhbm.com, rod Subject: Re: Type ofWood References:Content-Type: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN James, You are thinking ofIronwood (Olneya tesota) which is found only in the Sonoran desert. I wasspeaking of American Hornbeam (Carpinus caroliniana)Common Names:Musclewood, Ironwood, Blue-beech, Water-beech. The word "hornbeam" comes from the words "horn" for "toughness" and "beam" an old English word for"tree" and refers to this tree's very hard, tough, wood." Probably everycountry has a few trees known as "ironwood". I should have stuck toHornbeam or Hophornbeam (though I believe there is also an EnglishHornbeam); I was unaware of the ambiguity of the term Ironwood. Goodcatch, thanks. Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/jmpio@nhbm.com wrote: The "ironwood" I'm familiar with comes from the desert southwest and is avery dark brown. I don't know the species of tree, but the stuff isincredibly dense, almost poreless, but perhaps a bit brittle. from jbbamboo47@yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 17:31:42 2001 f9FMVf423585 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:31:41 - Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:31:45 PDT Subject: Re: bamboo ferrules yes--- Peter McKean wrote: Am I getting this right - you have made the ferrulehexagonal INSIDE andOUTSIDE ? Wow! Peter----- Original Message -----From: "james bailey" Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 1:37 AMSubject: bamboo ferrules made a rod useing bamboo ferrules. there hex inside an out. the fit was fine the problem is after a few casts they loosen. any ideas. jeb __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from channer@frontier.net Mon Oct 15 17:52:56 2001 f9FMqt424628 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:52:55 - for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:02:46 - Subject: Re: Glue thickness Harry;I used to fuss, fume , fret and worry about this, more so when I wasusing Urac and the powder catalyst, it added almost .010 to mymeasurements. I too use Epon, and I gave up worrying about it. I make myblanks a couple inches long at both ends and just measure where I wantthe blank to begin and end. I mostly go for the tip dimension andmeasure down, unless the ferrule station is way off, then I measure backto see what will happen to the tip. I have also taken to waving my heatgun over the strips after I spread glue on them, heat thins the Epondown real fast and makes it penetrate a bit better, also cuts the glueline thickness down. Mostly, my rods come out about .003 over size, Ikind of figure this makes the old silk line tapers more suitable formodern lines. See, you can rationalize any thing you want if you justtry.John Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, Just wondering about something. I changed to Epon abouttwo or three dozen rods ago, and have no complaints. ButI'm wondering about one thing. I glued another Payne 101over the weekend. Before gluing, I carefully measured everystation. For once, I had it as close to perfect as I canget a rod. The tips were consistently .001" oversize toallow for final sanding, and within .0005" the same flat toflat measurements. Butts were also .001" oversize, andwithin .002" from flat to flat. After gluing and final sanding, everything is stillalmost perfectly consistent, but the strips have "grown" by.004" - .005" Can it be possible that Epon adds that muchto my measurements? Seems to be the only possibleexplanation. Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct 15 18:11:58 2001 f9FNBv425365 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:11:57 - ;Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:11:53 +0000 Subject: Re: Type of Wood Reed, when you mentioned plane soles using hard woods such as ironwood, Iwas wondering if anyone on the list is using the small wooden block planesin bamboo rod planing? I see them advertised quite often in good woodworkingcatalogs and you can also purchase plans to make your own. I wonder if theyare too light in weight for our use? Just another thought! Jack from channer@frontier.net Mon Oct 15 18:12:33 2001 f9FNCV425482 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:12:32 - Subject: Re: Silk Thread You guys can all stuff your damn Gossamer, 3/0 for me! I don't mindworking at something, but I like to have something to show for it otherthan a spools worth of 6" pieces of thread.Clunky Fingers John Todd Talsma wrote: All, What size silk are all of you using for your wraps? I've made a few changes to the tips site, thanks to all for the binder,beveller, etc photos. Keep them coming!--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 15 18:33:35 2001 f9FNXY426258 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:33:34 - Subject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture Bill,I am sure you must also believe in Santa so at least be a good boy from nowuntil the 25th.Terry WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Terry, Holy Cow! I'm thinking now I'm gonna go straight to Hell for SURE!!! Iwonder if Dante assigned a special circle for us infidels who believe thatdried bundles of lignens can no longer absorb water. Harry Boyd, help me out here! Can you perform last rites? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Cc: "WILLIAM HARMS" ; Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 6:30 PMSubject: Re: Big Words-A chemical engineer's notes on moisture I am refering to the accepted terminology expressed by The ForestProducts Lab and all the books I have ever read.Don't try to wriggle out, I am RIGHT and YOU bastards are WRONGTerry Rick Crenshaw wrote: Just a note to those following this thread. The 'free water' and 'bound water' Terry is referring to is all considered 'free moisture' at the level Bill and I are talking about. Terry is looking at this on the cellular level. Bill and I are looking at the molecular level. There is a 'sizable' difference. [:-)] Don't confuse the two. Rick from "Marty D. aka \"none" Mon Oct 15 19:09:12 2001 f9G09C427328 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:09:12 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4165. . Clean. Processed in 0.448097 secs); 16 Oct 200100:03:41 -0000 Subject: Re: Silk Thread I like Pearsall's Naples silk for main wraps, Gossamer fpr tipping. Marty Todd Talsma wrote: All, What size silk are all of you using for your wraps? I've made a few changes to the tips site, thanks to all for the binder,beveller, etc photos. Keep them coming!--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from "Marty D. aka \"none" Mon Oct 15 19:29:32 2001 f9G0TW428412 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:29:32 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4165. . Clean. Processed in 0.831819 secs); 16 Oct 200100:24:50 -0000 Subject: Re: Heddon 7.5' --------------83F8312DAB432159B2BAF85F Hi Bret, Here is a Heddon 7' 2/2 #4 taper from a rod marked Jay HarveyLincoln #1. This rod was made by Heddon for the EK Tryon Co. inPhiladephia . I will also send the 6' er as soon as possible. Action isvery similar to the Granger 7'er. Jay Harvey Lincoln #1 7' 2/2 #4 (measuredover varnish deduct .003")Tip Butt00 .065" .195"05 .077 .20110 .091 .21815 .106 .23120 .120 .24925 .139 .25530 .154 .283 start of swell35 .171 .365 @ 33 1/2" start of grip40 .17842 1/2" .180 Guide spacing from TT, 4 1/4", 9 1/4", 15 1/4", 22 1/4", 30 1/4" 391/4", 49 5/8", 61" (stripper)Good luck, Marty Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: I do not remember if I told you thanks for the taper. ThanksBret --------------83F8312DAB432159B2BAF85F Hi Bret, Here is a Heddon 7' 2/2 #4 taper from a rod marked Jay HarveyLincoln #1. This rod was made by Heddon for the EK Tryon Co. in Philadephia. I will also send the 6' er as soon as possible. Action is very similarto the Granger 7'er. Jay Harvey Lincoln #1 7' 2/2 #4 (measured over varnish deduct .003") Butt .195" .201 .218 .231 .249 .255 .365 @ 33 1/2" start of grip .178 39 1/4", 49 5/8", 61" (stripper) Good luck, MartyGrhghlndr@aol.com wrote:I do not Bret --------------83F8312DAB432159B2BAF85F-- from harms1@pa.net Mon Oct 15 20:11:10 2001 f9G1B9400420 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:11:09 - Subject: Re: Silk Thread Todd, I have been using YLI silk ("Fishawk") for the past few years. Size A forthe wraps, and 3/0 for the tipping. It's a tad thicker than the Pearsallcounterparts, but the price is right. You can buy colors in lots of 5spools from the company if you have a tax number, and the spools (for thesame price) are about 20 times larger than those dinky little Pearsalljobbies. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Silk Thread Pearsalls Naples, Gossamer for tipping.A.J. From: Todd Talsma Subject: Silk ThreadDate: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:00:37 -0400 All, What size silk are all of you using for your wraps? I've made a few changes to the tips site, thanks to all for the binder,beveller, etc photos. Keep them coming!--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 20:21:44 2001 f9G1Lh401025 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:21:43 - Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:21:43 -0700 Subject: Re: Type of wood FILETIME=[EA3212F0:01C155E0] osage orange is available from places that sell native american crafts. Itappears to be one of the most common choices for traditional bows.www.nativewayonline.com is one that I know of. Although at 8 bucks a foot,it would be cheaper for me to stick a chain saw in the back of my car anddrive out and visit Bob Nunley's farm. Jeff Schaeffer from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 20:30:36 2001 f9G1Ua401622 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:30:36 - Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:30:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Silk Thread FILETIME=[27A43F90:01C155E2] Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I am crazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, even afterspending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it oroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect when dry,but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilute varnishon my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Any flawsshow up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising whatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrap thatallows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks you forgot toerase. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Oct 15 20:42:41 2001 f9G1ge402283 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:42:40 - f9G1gc429724; Subject: Re: Silk Thread John, I will gladly take all those horrible Gossamer spools off your hands. And Iwont even charge you for the service! [:)] Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Silk Thread You guys can all stuff your damn Gossamer, 3/0 for me! I don't mindworking at something, but I like to have something to show for it otherthan a spools worth of 6" pieces of thread.Clunky Fingers John Todd Talsma wrote: All, What size silk are all of you using for your wraps? I've made a few changes to the tips site, thanks to all for the binder,beveller, etc photos. Keep them coming!--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Oct 15 20:46:33 2001 f9G1kW402643 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:46:32 - f9G1kY419777; "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: Silk Thread Thats spooky, You just describe what I just went through on this Para 15 using Java brownPearsalls. Thanks for the tip Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Silk Thread Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I am crazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, even afterspending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it oroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect when dry, but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilute varnish on my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Any flaws show up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising whatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrap thatallows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks you forgot toerase. from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 20:47:11 2001 f9G1lA402786 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:47:10 - Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:47:10 -0700 Subject: Re: heat treating, big screw up FILETIME=[785C3DA0:01C155E4] OK, I put together a brand new heat gun oven and treated the rought planedbound strips for a Dickerson 6'6" 4 weight. I set the oven at 375, andpoured on the heat from the heat gun for 12 minutes, flipping the stripshalfway through. At this point, I violated my cardinal rule of rodmaking, which is to go bywhat you see, and not what it says in the book. I pulled the strips. Afterthey cooled, I realized that there had been no color change, and no changein flexibility or recoil. I thought hard, and decided to try it again, thistime for 14 minutes, with another flip halfway through. Just a hint ofchange, but the strips are definitely "snappier". The mistake was obvious, I have a slow oven, or need to turn up the heat ifI want times to be short. On both occasions I pulled the strips just asthings were about to get going. The question is can I try a third shot andthis time not pull them out until they darken a bit? Or is this a "quitwhile you are ahead" situation? Jeff Schaeffer from seanmcs@iprimus.com.au Mon Oct 15 20:54:56 2001 f9G1ss403397 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:54:55 - Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:54:54 +1000 Subject: Re: Silk Thread FILETIME=[8D759690:01C155E5] Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away with the need to pull theend of the thread under? In case this sounds like a heresy, I mentionstripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the 1920s, to find that thevery numerous intermediate wraps were not finished (nor started) bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them on over a dab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while the varnish dried. Sean Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I am crazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, even afterspending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it oroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect when dry,but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilute varnishon my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Any flawsshow up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising whatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrap thatallows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks you forgot toerase. from piscator@macatawa.org Mon Oct 15 21:01:02 2001 f9G211403847 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:01:02 - "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Glue thickness Ray, You have just solved one of the great mysteries in the modern world for me,Thank You! Now, do you know where the second sock from every other pair goes to? ;^) Thanks again for a really great (and simple) explaination! Brian from piscator@macatawa.org Mon Oct 15 21:05:35 2001 f9G25Y404231 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:05:34 - Subject: Re: Type of Wood I think hop hornbeam is Ostrya virginiana. Here we call hornbeam ="Muscle Wood" or "Briancreek'sarms wood," interchangably. Brian wood," interchangably. Brian from piscator@macatawa.org Mon Oct 15 21:07:55 2001 f9G27s404552 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:07:54 - Subject: Re: Silk Thread Me too. But YLI 3/0 is also pretty nice for wraps. Don't have theconstitution for gossamar unless I can't find a color in larger size. Brian from piscator@macatawa.org Mon Oct 15 21:10:05 2001 f9G2A4404881 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:10:04 - "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: Silk Thread I use distilled water. Shows flaws and seems to tighten the thread as itdries. Leaves no residue that I've noticed. Brian from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Oct 15 21:11:46 2001 f9G2Bj405146 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:11:45 - f9G2BkT07246; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:11:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Glue thickness John,In the winter my shop gets cold and the glue really thickens up.I heat the glue container before mixing the Epon. It really thins it out.I think your way might be better. Will try it on the next rod.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com channer wrote: Harry;I used to fuss, fume , fret and worry about this, more so when I wasusing Urac and the powder catalyst, it added almost .010 to mymeasurements. I too use Epon, and I gave up worrying about it. I make myblanks a couple inches long at both ends and just measure where I wantthe blank to begin and end. I mostly go for the tip dimension andmeasure down, unless the ferrule station is way off, then I measure backto see what will happen to the tip. I have also taken to waving my heatgun over the strips after I spread glue on them, heat thins the Epondown real fast and makes it penetrate a bit better, also cuts the glueline thickness down. Mostly, my rods come out about .003 over size, Ikind of figure this makes the old silk line tapers more suitable formodern lines. See, you can rationalize any thing you want if you justtry.John Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, Just wondering about something. I changed to Epon abouttwo or three dozen rods ago, and have no complaints. ButI'm wondering about one thing. I glued another Payne 101over the weekend. Before gluing, I carefully measured everystation. For once, I had it as close to perfect as I canget a rod. The tips were consistently .001" oversize toallow for final sanding, and within .0005" the same flat toflat measurements. Butts were also .001" oversize, andwithin .002" from flat to flat. After gluing and final sanding, everything is stillalmost perfectly consistent, but the strips have "grown" by.004" - .005" Can it be possible that Epon adds that muchto my measurements? Seems to be the only possibleexplanation. Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Oct 15 21:14:28 2001 f9G2EQ405438 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:14:26 - Subject: Re: Type of wood stoltz10@home.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu The stuff grows around here like weeds. The stuff grows aroundhere like weeds. from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 21:16:09 2001 f9G2G8405688 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:16:08 - 15 Oct 2001 19:16:11 PDT Subject: Re: Type of Wood rod Ostrya virginiana is the eastern hornbeam carpinuscarliniana the american hornbeam. there are 42 membersin the hornbeam family 8 are hopshornbeams and 34 haveleafy bracts. hhmmmmmm.... timothy --- Brian Creek wrote: I think hop hornbeam is Ostrya virginiana. Here wecall hornbeam "Muscle Wood" or "Briancreek'sarmswood," interchangably. Brian ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 21:20:17 2001 f9G2KG406225 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:20:17 - 15 Oct 2001 19:20:19 PDT Subject: Re: Silk Thread some of the makers of rods in the past coated the areato be wrapped with a sticky substance prior towrapping. i have seen it and have heard it talkedabout. that is all i know. timothy --- Sean McSharry wrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away withthe need to pull theend of the thread under? In case this sounds like aheresy, I mentionstripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the1920s, to find that thevery numerous intermediate wraps were not finished(nor started) bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them onover a dab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while thevarnish dried. Sean Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I am crazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, even after spending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it or overwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect when dry, but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilute varnish on my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Any flaws show up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with the burnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising what can be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrap that allows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks you forgot to erase. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from fquinchat@locl.net Mon Oct 15 21:43:28 2001 f9G2hS407785 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:43:28 - Subject: Re: bamboo ferrules Jim, You must have way too much time on your hands! By the way there is a guyinDenmark who is making hex ferrules, www.fries-rods.dk/bfrods.htm Dennis Bertram -----Original Message----- Subject: bamboo ferrules made a rod useing bamboo ferrules. there hex inside anout. the fit was fine the problem is after a few caststhey loosen. any ideas. jeb __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Mon Oct 15 21:47:54 2001 f9G2lq408205 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:47:53 - Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:47:00 +0800 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:47:00 +0800 Subject: Burnt silk Hi all, I know that you can diferentiate between nylon and silk thread bythe way they respond to being burnt. Does anyone know what cotton does? TIAMike from channer@frontier.net Mon Oct 15 22:04:01 2001 f9G341409226 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:04:01 - for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:13:53 - Subject: Re: Glue thickness Tony;Epon can also be thinned with laquer thinner, but not acetone, even thoit says epoxy thinnewr on the can. epon thinned with acetone will notset up unless heat treated. I tried it once in the summer time, 3 dayslater it was still goo in the cup and the rod was still sticky, heattreated it at 200 for 2 hrs to set it up. No problems ever using laquerthinner, but I do think the heat gun approach works better withouttaking any chances with the composition of the glue. John Tony Spezio wrote: John,In the winter my shop gets cold and the glue really thickens up.I heat the glue container before mixing the Epon. It really thins it out.I think your way might be better. Will try it on the next rod.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com channer wrote: Harry;I used to fuss, fume , fret and worry about this, more so when I wasusing Urac and the powder catalyst, it added almost .010 to mymeasurements. I too use Epon, and I gave up worrying about it. I make myblanks a couple inches long at both ends and just measure where I wantthe blank to begin and end. I mostly go for the tip dimension andmeasure down, unless the ferrule station is way off, then I measure backto see what will happen to the tip. I have also taken to waving my heatgun over the strips after I spread glue on them, heat thins the Epondown real fast and makes it penetrate a bit better, also cuts the glueline thickness down. Mostly, my rods come out about .003 over size, Ikind of figure this makes the old silk line tapers more suitable formodern lines. See, you can rationalize any thing you want if you justtry.John Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, Just wondering about something. I changed to Epon abouttwo or three dozen rods ago, and have no complaints. ButI'm wondering about one thing. I glued another Payne 101over the weekend. Before gluing, I carefully measured everystation. For once, I had it as close to perfect as I canget a rod. The tips were consistently .001" oversize toallow for final sanding, and within .0005" the same flat toflat measurements. Butts were also .001" oversize, andwithin .002" from flat to flat. After gluing and final sanding, everything is stillalmost perfectly consistent, but the strips have "grown" by.004" - .005" Can it be possible that Epon adds that muchto my measurements? Seems to be the only possibleexplanation. Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Oct 15 22:05:38 2001 f9G35c409444 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:05:38 - f9G35c428370; "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: heat treating, big screw up Jeff, Let that oven preheat for 30 minutes. That should do it. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: heat treating, big screw up occasions I pulled the strips just asthings were about to get going. > Jeff Schaeffer from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 15 22:38:58 2001 f9G3cv411199 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:38:57 - Subject: Re: Silk Thread Pearsall Gossamer. Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 02:00 PM 10/15/01 -0400, Todd Talsma wrote: All, What size silk are all of you using for your wraps? I've made a few changes to the tips site, thanks to all for the binder,beveller, etc photos. Keep them coming!--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from bamboo@pa.net Mon Oct 15 22:42:13 2001 f9G3gC411552 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:42:12 - for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:41:11 - Subject: Silk Thread Pearsalls gossamer or naples depending on desired color. I've been =fortunate enough to come across some old spools of Belding Corticelli in =size A and this was some of the best silk I've ever wrapped with.Bill Pearsalls gossamer or naples depending= Belding Corticelli in size A and this was some of the best silk I've = wrapped with.Bill from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Tue Oct 16 01:24:42 2001 f9G6Of417552 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 01:24:41 - Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:24:42 +0100 Rodmakers List Subject: Re: Silk Thread Sean,You have not quite hit the nail on the head !Intermediates are usually one length of thread going from intermediateto intermediate...........the intermediates are then dabbed withvarnish.When this has dried the joining thread is trimmed off beforefinally dipping the rod..............Paul Sean McSharry wrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away with the need to pull theend of the thread under? In case this sounds like a heresy, I mentionstripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the 1920s, to find that thevery numerous intermediate wraps were not finished (nor started) bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them on over a dab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while the varnish dried. Sean Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I am crazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, even afterspending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it oroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect whendry,but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilutevarnishon my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Anyflawsshow up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising whatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrap thatallows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks you forgot toerase. from danny.twang@pd.no Tue Oct 16 01:33:16 2001 f9G6XF418117 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 01:33:15 - for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:28:40+0200 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:28:39+0200 Subject: Re: Silk Thread I`m having problem getting the silk (Gossamer) perfectly clear/tranculent if idilute my varnish (Epifanes) at all. I`m using undiluted heated varnish on the first coat. It is rather thick and I would morelike to us a thinner mixture. What kind of varnishare You using, and does it get clear? danny I keep a bottle of extremely dilute varnish on my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Any flawsshow up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising whatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. from caneman@clnk.com Tue Oct 16 04:51:56 2001 f9G9pt420337 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 04:51:55 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Silk Thread Danny,I use Spar Varnish thinned 30% with Artists Turpentine, unheated, 3 to 4coats, to seal my wraps. They come out perfectly clear. Formerly, I usedunthinned varnish and "thought" they were perfectly clear, until I starteddoing white silk wraps and discovered that there was some faint frosting inthe wraps. With the thinned spar, the white silk completely disappears. Ihad someone at the FFF Conclave ask me if I mounted the guides on oneparticular rod, with epoxy (This rod was wrapped with white silk and redtipping, all Pearsalls Gossamer)... can't get much more clear than that.I think it's also important to emphasize that if you use too much threadtension, the wraps will resist soaking up the varnish. This again, isn't sonoticable with colors, like red, brown, ect., but when you go with whitesilk to get the invisible wraps it becomse painfully obvious.I'll try to take a picture of the wraps and post it on the web latertoday so you can see the results of doing it this way. later,Bob I`m having problem getting the silk (Gossamer) perfectly clear/tranculent if i dilute my varnish (Epifanes) at all. I`m using undiluted heated varnish on the first coat. It is rather thick and I would more like to us a thinner mixture. What kind of varnish are You using, and does it get clear? danny from "Marty D. aka \"none" Tue Oct 16 04:53:32 2001 f9G9rW420511 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 04:53:32 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4165. . Clean. Processed in 0.675734 secs); 16 Oct 200109:49:20 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: Silk Thread That is why I put 1 coat of tung oil varnish (Waterlox)on the entireblank with my fingers as thin as possible prior to wrapping. I let itdry for a few days and rub down with #0000 steel wool before I wrap. Thewrapping goes much easier. Marty timothy troester wrote: some of the makers of rods in the past coated the areato be wrapped with a sticky substance prior towrapping. i have seen it and have heard it talkedabout. that is all i know. timothy --- Sean McSharry wrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away withthe need to pull theend of the thread under? In case this sounds like aheresy, I mentionstripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the1920s, to find that thevery numerous intermediate wraps were not finished(nor started) bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them onover a dab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while thevarnish dried. Sean Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I am crazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, even after spending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it or overwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect when dry, but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilute varnish on my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Any flaws show up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with the burnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising what can be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrap that allows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks you forgot to erase. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from caneman@clnk.com Tue Oct 16 05:17:32 2001 f9GAHW420976 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 05:17:32 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Silk Thread Danny,Here's the url for the image of the clear wraps I said I'd post. Notextremely good photo work, but the best I could do in the kitchen at 5:00am!Pic is at http://members.clnk.com/caneman/clear01.jpg Any light spots yousee are reflections from the flash, not blemishes in the wraps. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Silk Thread I`m having problem getting the silk (Gossamer) perfectly clear/tranculent if i dilute my varnish (Epifanes) at all. I`m using undiluted heated varnish on the first coat. It is rather thick and I would more like to us a thinner mixture. What kind of varnish are You using, and does it get clear? danny I keep a bottle of extremely dilute varnish on my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Any flaws show up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising whatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. from dnorl@qwest.net Tue Oct 16 05:35:54 2001 f9GAZr421463 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 05:35:53 - (63.228.45.208) " " Subject: Re: Wrapping tension Here is something that never would have occured to me.Thanks again AJDave-----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Wrapping tension Too much tension on the silk can make it difficult to get the spar varnishto penetrate. Not immpossible, it just takes more care and a little rubbingto get the varnish to thoroughly saturate the thread.A.J. From: "Peter Van Schaack" Subject: Wrapping tensionDate: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:37:33 -0400 How much tension do you put on silk thread as you wrap on snake guides?Can you put too much tension on the thread? Pete _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 16 05:59:33 2001 f9GAxV421887 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 05:59:31 - Subject: Re: Type of Wood Ha!, you think that's tough? We've got a tree here called Iron BARK. What do you think the wood's like once you're though it? :-)) Tony At 06:20 PM 10/15/01 -0400, Reed Curry wrote: James,You are thinking of Ironwood (Olneya tesota) which is found only in the Sonoran desert. I was speaking of American Hornbeam (Carpinus caroliniana)Common Names: Musclewood, Ironwood, Blue-beech, Water-beech. The word "hornbeam" comes from the words "horn" for "toughness" and "beam" an old English word for "tree" and refers to this tree's very hard, tough, wood."Probably every country has a few trees known as "ironwood". I should have stuck to Hornbeam or Hophornbeam (though I believe there is also an English Hornbeam); I was unaware of the ambiguity of the term Ironwood. Good catch, thanks.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ jmpio@nhbm.com wrote: The "ironwood" I'm familiar with comes from the desert southwest and is avery dark brown. I don't know the species of tree, but the stuff isincredibly dense, almost poreless, but perhaps a bit brittle. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from seanmcs@iprimus.com.au Tue Oct 16 06:22:32 2001 f9GBMT422325 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:22:30 - Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:22:25 +1000 Subject: Re: Silk Thread FILETIME=[D4EB40C0:01C15634] Bob: Beautiful shot. Sean Bob Nunley wrote: Danny,Here's the url for the image of the clear wraps I said I'd post. Notextremely good photo work, but the best I could do in the kitchen at5:00am!Pic is at http://members.clnk.com/caneman/clear01.jpg Any light spotsyousee are reflections from the flash, not blemishes in the wraps. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: "Danny Twang" Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:43 AMSubject: Re: Silk Thread I`m having problem getting the silk (Gossamer) perfectlyclear/tranculent if i dilute my varnish (Epifanes) at all. I`m using undiluted heated varnish on the first coat. It is rather thick and I would more like to us a thinner mixture. What kind of varnish are You using, and does it get clear? danny I keep a bottle of extremely dilute varnish on my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Any flaws show up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising whatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 16 06:31:03 2001 f9GBV1422698 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:31:01 - stoltz10@home.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Type of wood Tough weeds out you way eh? At 10:13 PM 10/15/01 -0400, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: The stuff grows around here like weeds. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 16 06:38:51 2001 f9GBcn423021 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:38:49 - "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: heat treating, big screw up Go for it again, if the colour hasn't altered it can't have done much anyhow. Some say it wont do anything anyhow [:-)] Tony The mistake was obvious, I have a slow oven, or need to turn up the heat ifI want times to be short. On both occasions I pulled the strips just asthings were about to get going. The question is can I try a third shot andthis time not pull them out until they darken a bit? Or is this a "quitwhile you are ahead" situation? Jeff Schaeffer /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html The node has been torn.The iron that was not sharp.Time, effort wasted.This strip is now trash. /*************************************************************************/ from bob@downandacross.com Tue Oct 16 07:11:43 2001 f9GCBg423629 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:11:42 - "Rodmakers List" Subject: RE: Silk Thread Hi Paul:Your tip comes just in time. I just recieved a Cross (SB) salmon rod withlovely intermediates and lousy varnish. The varnish is beyond polishing. Iwas actually thinking of sending it out just to save the time to redo itright. Now, I think I will try your method and go for it. I likeintermediates, but I never did as many as on this 9'6" rod.I will post the taper when it is stripped if anyone wants it. It is a greatcasting 8 weight rod. I plan to make a hollow version for steelheading. Iwill try the Milward hollow building charts to get something close incasting characteristics but much lighter. Jordan's tapers are muchunderated. IMHO.Thanks.Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Silk Thread Sean,You have not quite hit the nail on the head !Intermediates are usually one length of thread going from intermediateto intermediate...........the intermediates are then dabbed withvarnish.When this has dried the joining thread is trimmed off beforefinally dipping the rod..............Paul from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Tue Oct 16 07:28:26 2001 f9GCSP424062 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:28:25 - "rod" Subject: Re: Type of Wood Jack,I have been making and using wooden planes, in the Krenov style. While theyare wonderful to use on hardwood surfaces and such, they did'nt work thatwell on bamboo strips even with careful tuning. Two of the problems I foundwith using them, 1. they are not heavy enough , 2. the width of the planeseven my smallish finish planes are too wide for comfartable one hand use,and 3. it is difficult to adjust for extremely fine shavings. There is the"cool factor" though in using wood planes on wood forms to produce a "wood"rod which makes it fun if your into that type of thing. losey----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Type of Wood Reed, when you mentioned plane soles using hard woods such as ironwood, Iwas wondering if anyone on the list is using the small wooden block planesin bamboo rod planing? I see them advertised quite often in good woodworking catalogs and you can also purchase plans to make your own. I wonder if they are too light in weight for our use? Just another thought! Jack from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Tue Oct 16 07:31:03 2001 f9GCV2424337 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:31:02 - ,, "rod" Subject: Re: Type of Wood Wow...I just reread my last post...I can't count or spell....not good.....----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Type of Wood Jack,I have been making and using wooden planes, in the Krenov style. While they are wonderful to use on hardwood surfaces and such, they did'nt work thatwell on bamboo strips even with careful tuning. Two of the problems I found with using them, 1. they are not heavy enough , 2. the width of the planeseven my smallish finish planes are too wide for comfartable one hand use,and 3. it is difficult to adjust for extremely fine shavings. There is the"cool factor" though in using wood planes on wood forms to produce a "wood" rod which makes it fun if your into that type of thing. losey----- Original Message -----From: "Jacques Follweiler" Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:11 PMSubject: Re: Type of Wood Reed, when you mentioned plane soles using hard woods such asironwood, I was wondering if anyone on the list is using the small wooden block planes in bamboo rod planing? I see them advertised quite often in good woodworking catalogs and you can also purchase plans to make your own. I wonder if they are too light in weight for our use? Just another thought! Jack from dmanders@telusplanet.net Tue Oct 16 07:50:23 2001 f9GCoN425020 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:50:23 -0500 Subject: Snake Guide Performance Hi, Am only getting about 2000 hours out of my snake guides before they havetobe replaced. Am using hard chrome presently and have tried both Perfectionand Pac Bay. What is your experience. I know that Snake Brand is available now inchrome. Has anyone tried some tests to see how they last? regards, Don from lblove@omniglobal.net Tue Oct 16 09:24:21 2001 f9GEOL428675 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:24:21 - Subject: Re: Silk Thread YLI 3/0 for most everything from ferrules to tipping,price is right and the vendor is great to order from.Plus it comes 200 yards to the spool. Brad *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/15/01 at 10:06 PM Brian Creek wrote: Me too. But YLI 3/0 is also pretty nice for wraps. Don't have theconstitution for gossamar unless I can't find a color in larger size. Brian from grnmtrods@outdrs.net Tue Oct 16 10:25:21 2001 f9GFPK405460 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:25:20 - Subject: Hal Bacon--Salmon fishing Hal, Just got your note. Yes I fly fish for salmon.Iused to fish the Boquet andSaranac all the time .I have been giving the rivers here a rough time thelast couple of years, since I retired. I work part time at the Classic Outfitters in Burlington,selling fishingtoys. The guys I work with have been fishing the Saranac ,and doing welllatley. I don't know if you heard that we just got approval last week to start backwith lamprey control. We are just waiting to get some water flow along withthe correct temperature before application will start up. This was probably one of the worst years I have seen as far as fish beinghit with lampreys. I had one salmon that had a hole chewed in it and 7healing wounds. I'll write latter and yes we should get together next year and do somefishing. Thank you again,Jim from piscator@macatawa.org Tue Oct 16 11:27:12 2001 f9GGRB409048 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:27:11 - for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:28:45 - Subject: Arend rod A friend of mine just bought a rod made by Arend in Denver. Name is on =the seat (all metal, looks like ns not al), no writing on the shaft at =all (dang) and wraped green/white jasper tipped red. 9' 3/2 all there. =I'm guessing for a 6 wt., but haven't cast the thing. He wanted to know what I thought it was worth, but I've never seen one =before, only know what I read in Dick Spurr's book. Anyone have any = Brian A friend of mine just bought a rod made= on the shaft at all (dang) and wraped green/white jasper tipped = thing. He wanted to know what I thought itwas = I've never seen one before, only know what I read in Dick Spurr's = Anyone have any ideas? Brian from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Oct 16 13:45:42 2001 f9GIjf415178 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:45:41 - NAA09762 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 Subject: two handed trout rods? After reading what Milward wrote about the 2-handed trout rods of 100 years ago, I think I'd like to try one. Does anyone have a taper for a such a thing? In the archives there's a 10ft 6wt(Reed Curry's Kim-Bob Dream Machine from Greyrock 1998):http://www.uwm.edu/cgi- bin/stetzer/search2.pl/rm9806.629but no indication if its 2-handed or the "kind" of rod Milward istalking about. Any ideas? The taper of the Dream Machine looksquite light for its length and line weight, to my eyes. I'd probably have to cut way back on the coffee to cast it.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Oct 16 14:00:44 2001 f9GJ0h416253 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:00:43 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: two handed trout rods? Frank, I know of two makers now building to that taper. It is single- handedand, as you note, not for the frenetic fisherman. I would advise only one cup of weak tea before fishing. You can always go home for a second cup while waiting for your backcast to straighten.:) Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Frank Stetzer wrote: After reading what Milward wrote about the 2-handed trout rods of 100 years ago, I think I'd like to try one. Does anyone have a taper for a such a thing? In the archives there's a 10ft 6wt(Reed Curry's Kim-Bob Dream Machine from Greyrock 1998):http://www.uwm.edu/cgi- bin/stetzer/search2.pl/rm9806.629but no indication if its 2-handed or the "kind" of rod Milward istalking about. Any ideas? The taper of the Dream Machine looksquite light for its length and line weight, to my eyes. I'd probably have to cut way back on the coffee to cast it........................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. -- > from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Tue Oct 16 14:20:58 2001 Received: with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 16 Oct 200112:20:48 - 0700 Message-ID:From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Cc: "'rodmakers'" Subject: RE: two handed trout rods? Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:20:39 -0700 patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN whatbob is talking about is a 12 foot spey rod, it takes two hands to cast it. Hehad one that he had built at the last corbett lake get together. Patrick W.Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237- 0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- From: Frank Stetzer reading what Milward wrote about the 2-handed trout rods of 100 years ago,I think I'd like to try one. Does anyone have a taper for a such a thing? In thearchives there's a 10ft 6wt (Reed Curry's Kim-Bob Dream Machine fromGreyrock 1998): http://www.uwm.edu/cgi- bin/stetzer/search2.pl/rm9806.629 but no indication if its 2-handed or the"kind" of rod Milward is talking about. Any ideas? The taper of the DreamMachine looks quite light for its length and line weight, to my eyes. I'dprobably have to cut way back on the coffee to cast it....................................................................... Frank Stetzer "...a cheerfulcomrade is better stetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employedby, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke, Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. > from paul.blakley@ntlworld.comTue Oct 16 14:40:22 2001 Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07- ; Tue,16 Oct 2001 20:39:30 +0100 Message-ID:Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:37:19 paul.blakley@ntlworld.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; I) X- , Rodmakers Subject: Intermediate Wraps References: Content-Type: text/plain; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Todd, It's really easy........a)Whip/wrap the rod rings etc as usual. b)Mark on the spacings for theintermediate wraps with a light pencil. c)Start off the first intermediate asyou would any wrap, I use 6 turns of silk per wrap but onus is on theindividual and the thickness of thread one uses and ones personal preference! d)Then using the same spool of silk continue spiraling/rotating the rod untilthe silk is at the pencil mark for the second intermediate wrap.Then doanother 6 turns of silk and continue to the third wrap etc etc etc........ Atthe end either finish as usual or just put in a few half hitches after the lastintermediate. e) Coat each intermediate with say two /three brushed coatsof varnish applied with a fine brush. f) After the last coat of varnish hasdried remove the unwanted lengths of spiralling thread with a sharp scalpelblade. g)Dip / finish the rod as per ones usual method i.e dip, spray, brush orpoured ! Now that should explain how it's done ? Tight lines .........Paul ToddTalsma wrote: Paul, I'm having a hard time getting this through my thick skull. Maybe Ijust got hit too many times playing basketball this morning. How is this done? If it is one thread, how do they start the next wrapand have it stay in place? "paul.blakley" wrote: Sean,You have not quite hit the nail on the head !Intermediates are usually one length of thread going from intermediateto intermediate...........the intermediates are then dabbed withvarnish.When this has dried the joining thread is trimmed off beforefinally dipping the rod..............Paul Sean McSharry wrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away with the need to pull theend of the thread under? In case this sounds like a heresy, I mentionstripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the 1920s, to find thatthevery numerous intermediate wraps were not finished (nor started) bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them on over a dab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while the varnish dried. Sean Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I am crazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, evenafterspending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it oroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfectwhen dry,but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilutevarnishon my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Anyflawsshow up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprisingwhatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrap thatallows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks you forgottoerase. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Oct 16 14:45:24 2001 f9GJjN419482 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:45:24 - Subject: So. Bend rod OOPS sorry guys. I am getting ready to build a rod based on the So. Bend 290. Does anyone have the proper tread color for this and does anyone have an original that has not bee mucked with so I can get the proper thread.Brett OOPS sorry guys. have an original that has not bee mucked with so I can get the proper thread.Brett from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 16 14:48:22 2001 f9GJmL419833 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:48:21 - (authenticated) Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:48:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Intermediate Wraps Todd, You do realize that this one belongs in the Tips Archive, don't you? This isgreat. I think I'll do intermediates on my next rod just for the fun of it . Thanks Paul,Harry "paul.blakley" wrote: Todd, It's really easy........a)Whip/wrap the rod rings etc as usual.b)Mark on the spacings for the intermediate wraps with a light pencil.c)Start off the first intermediate as you would any wrap, I use 6 turnsof silk per wrap but onus is on the individual and the thickness ofthread one uses and ones personal preference !d)Then using the same spool of silk continue spiraling/rotating the roduntil the silk is at the pencil mark for the second intermediatewrap.Then do another 6 turns of silk and continue to the third wrap etcetc etc........At the end either finish as usual or just put in a few half hitchesafter the last intermediate.e) Coat each intermediate with say two /three brushed coats of varnishapplied with a fine brush.f) After the last coat of varnish has dried remove the unwanted lengthsof spiralling thread with a sharp scalpel blade.g)Dip / finish the rod as per ones usual method i.e dip, spray, brush orpoured ! Now that should explain how it's done ? Tight lines .........Paul Todd Talsma wrote: Paul, I'm having a hard time getting this through my thick skull. Maybe Ijust got hit too many times playing basketball this morning. How is this done? If it is one thread, how do they start the next wrapand have it stay in place? "paul.blakley" wrote: Sean,You have not quite hit the nail on the head !Intermediates are usually one length of thread going from intermediateto intermediate...........the intermediates are then dabbed withvarnish.When this has dried the joining thread is trimmed off beforefinally dipping the rod..............Paul Sean McSharry wrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away with the need to pull theend of the thread under? In case this sounds like a heresy, I mentionstripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the 1920s, to find thatthevery numerous intermediate wraps were not finished (nor started)bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them on over a dab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while the varnish dried. Sean Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I amcrazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, evenafterspending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it oroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfectwhen dry,but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilutevarnishon my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it.Any flawsshow up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprisingwhatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrapthatallows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks youforgot toerase. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from hartzell@easystreet.com Tue Oct 16 14:49:00 2001 f9GJmx419991 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:48:59 - f9GJmuE00019 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:48:56 - Subject: Phosphor bronze All,I have heard that phosphor bronze is very dangerous to work with.Please look up the necessary precautions before making any chips ordust.The Duronz number I have on file is C642, but better check asthere are other alloys.Ed Hartzell from jmpio@nhbm.com Tue Oct 16 14:49:46 2001 f9GJnk420210 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:49:46 - id ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:53:24 -0600 Subject: RE: Intermediate Wraps Does anyone have any opinions on how much using intermediates on, say, 5"centers is going to slow down your basic 7' 4wt. rod? -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Intermediate Wraps Todd, You do realize that this one belongs in the Tips Archive, don't you?This isgreat. I think I'll do intermediates on my next rod just for the fun of it. Thanks Paul,Harry "paul.blakley" wrote: Todd, It's really easy........a)Whip/wrap the rod rings etc as usual.b)Mark on the spacings for the intermediate wraps with a light pencil.c)Start off the first intermediate as you would any wrap, I use 6 turnsof silk per wrap but onus is on the individual and the thickness ofthread one uses and ones personal preference !d)Then using the same spool of silk continue spiraling/rotating the roduntil the silk is at the pencil mark for the second intermediatewrap.Then do another 6 turns of silk and continue to the third wrap etcetc etc........At the end either finish as usual or just put in a few half hitchesafter the last intermediate.e) Coat each intermediate with say two /three brushed coats of varnishapplied with a fine brush.f) After the last coat of varnish has dried remove the unwanted lengthsof spiralling thread with a sharp scalpel blade.g)Dip / finish the rod as per ones usual method i.e dip, spray, brush orpoured ! Now that should explain how it's done ? Tight lines .........Paul Todd Talsma wrote: Paul, I'm having a hard time getting this through my thick skull. Maybe Ijust got hit too many times playing basketball this morning. How is this done? If it is one thread, how do they start the next wrapand have it stay in place? "paul.blakley" wrote: Sean,You have not quite hit the nail on the head !Intermediates are usually one length of thread going from intermediateto intermediate...........the intermediates are then dabbed withvarnish.When this has dried the joining thread is trimmed off beforefinally dipping the rod..............Paul Sean McSharry wrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away with the need to pull the end of the thread under? In case this sounds like a heresy, I mention stripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the 1920s, to find that the very numerous intermediate wraps were not finished (nor started)bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them on over a dab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while the varnish dried. Sean Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I amcrazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, even after spending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it oroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect when dry, but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilute varnish on my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Any flaws show up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with the burnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising what can be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrap that allows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks you forgot to erase. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from rmoon@ida.net Tue Oct 16 14:51:38 2001 f9GJpb420630 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:51:37 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: Intermediate Wraps --------------020308080608060106000506 PaulWhere were you when I had that 9 1/2 ' Checkosovocian rod with intermediates every quarter inch. You could have saved me 2 months of work. I really had to do it three times because each time I finished an intermediate one of the others would come off. ThanksRalph paul.blakley wrote: Todd, It's really easy........a)Whip/wrap the rod rings etc as usual.b)Mark on the spacings for the intermediate wraps with a light pencil.c)Start off the first intermediate as you would any wrap, I use 6 turnsof silk per wrap but onus is on the individual and the thickness ofthread one uses and ones personal preference !d)Then using the same spool of silk continue spiraling/rotating the roduntil the silk is at the pencil mark for the second intermediatewrap.Then do another 6 turns of silk and continue to the third wrap etcetc etc........At the end either finish as usual or just put in a few half hitchesafter the last intermediate.e) Coat each intermediate with say two /three brushed coats of varnishapplied with a fine brush.f) After the last coat of varnish has dried remove the unwanted lengthsof spiralling thread with a sharp scalpel blade.g)Dip / finish the rod as per ones usual method i.e dip, spray, brush orpoured ! Now that should explain how it's done ? Tight lines .........Paul Todd Talsma wrote: Paul, I'm having a hard time getting this through my thick skull. Maybe Ijust got hit too many times playing basketball this morning. How is this done? If it is one thread, how do they start the next wrapand have it stay in place? "paul.blakley" wrote: Sean,You have not quite hit the nail on the head !Intermediates are usually one length of thread going from intermediateto intermediate...........the intermediates are then dabbed withvarnish.When this has dried the joining thread is trimmed off beforefinally dipping the rod..............Paul Sean McSharry wrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away with the need to pull theend of the thread under? In case this sounds like a heresy, I mentionstripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the 1920s, to find that thevery numerous intermediate wraps were not finished (nor started) bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them on over a dab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while the varnish dried. Sean Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I am crazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, evenafterspending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it oroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect whendry,but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilutevarnishon my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Anyflawsshow up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising whatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrap thatallows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks you forgottoerase. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm . --------------020308080608060106000506 PaulWhere were you when I had that 9 1/2 ' Checkosovocian rod withintermediates had to do it three times because each time I finished an intermediate one Ralph paul.blakley wrote: Todd,It's really easy........a)Whip/wrap the rodrings etc as usual.b)Mark on the spacings for the intermediate wrapswith a light pencil.c)Start off the first intermediate as you would anywrap, I use 6 turnsof silk per wrap but onus is on the individual and thethickness ofthread one uses and ones personal preference !d)Thenusing the same spool of silk continue spiraling/rotating the roduntil thesilk is at the pencil mark for the second intermediatewrap.Then doanother 6 turns of silk and continue to the third wrap etcetcetc........At the end either finish as usual or just put in a few halfhitchesafter the last intermediate.e) Coat each intermediate withsay two /three brushed coats of varnishapplied with a fine brush.f)After the last coat of varnish has dried remove the unwanted lengthsofspiralling thread with a sharp scalpel blade.g)Dip / finish the rod as perones usual method i.e dip, spray, brush orpoured !Now that should explain how it'sdone ?Tight lines .........Paul Todd Talsmawrote: Paul,I'm having a hard time getting this through mythick skull. Maybe Ijust got hit too many times playing basketball thismorning.How is this done? If it is one thread, how do they start thenext wrapand have it stay in place?"paul.blakley"wrote: Sean,You have not quite hit the nail on the head!Intermediates are usually one length of thread going fromintermediateto intermediate...........the intermediates are then dabbedwithvarnish.When this has dried the joining thread is trimmed offbeforefinally dipping the rod..............PaulSean McSharrywrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away with the need topull theend of the thread under? In case this sounds like a heresy, Imentionstripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the 1920s, to findthat thevery numerous intermediate wraps were not finished (norstarted) bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them on over adab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while the varnish dried. SeanJeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I amcrazy.Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that,even afterspending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking itoroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect whendry,but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilutevarnishon my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it.Any flawsshow up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit itwith theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rathersurprising whatcan be fixed.25% varnish, 75%thinner.It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clearwrap thatallows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks youforgot toerase. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland . --------------020308080608060106000506-- from rmoon@ida.net Tue Oct 16 14:54:06 2001 f9GJs4421063 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:54:05 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: Intermediate Wraps --------------050202000006030702010206 I knew how to spell "Czechoslovakian". Just forgot my spell czech er paul.blakley wrote: Todd, It's really easy........a)Whip/wrap the rod rings etc as usual.b)Mark on the spacings for the intermediate wraps with a light pencil.c)Start off the first intermediate as you would any wrap, I use 6 turnsof silk per wrap but onus is on the individual and the thickness ofthread one uses and ones personal preference !d)Then using the same spool of silk continue spiraling/rotating the roduntil the silk is at the pencil mark for the second intermediatewrap.Then do another 6 turns of silk and continue to the third wrap etcetc etc........At the end either finish as usual or just put in a few half hitchesafter the last intermediate.e) Coat each intermediate with say two /three brushed coats of varnishapplied with a fine brush.f) After the last coat of varnish has dried remove the unwanted lengthsof spiralling thread with a sharp scalpel blade.g)Dip / finish the rod as per ones usual method i.e dip, spray, brush orpoured ! Now that should explain how it's done ? Tight lines .........Paul Todd Talsma wrote: Paul, I'm having a hard time getting this through my thick skull. Maybe Ijust got hit too many times playing basketball this morning. How is this done? If it is one thread, how do they start the next wrapand have it stay in place? "paul.blakley" wrote: Sean,You have not quite hit the nail on the head !Intermediates are usually one length of thread going from intermediateto intermediate...........the intermediates are then dabbed withvarnish.When this has dried the joining thread is trimmed off beforefinally dipping the rod..............Paul Sean McSharry wrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away with the need to pull theend of the thread under? In case this sounds like a heresy, I mentionstripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the 1920s, to find that thevery numerous intermediate wraps were not finished (nor started) bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them on over a dab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while the varnish dried. Sean Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I am crazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, evenafterspending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it oroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect whendry,but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilutevarnishon my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Anyflawsshow up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising whatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrap thatallows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks you forgottoerase. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm . --------------050202000006030702010206 er paul.blakley wrote: Todd,It's really easy........a)Whip/wrap the rodrings etc as usual.b)Mark on the spacings for the intermediate wrapswith a light pencil.c)Start off the first intermediate as you would anywrap, I use 6 turnsof silk per wrap but onus is on the individual and thethickness ofthread one uses and ones personal preference !d)Thenusing the same spool of silk continue spiraling/rotating the roduntil thesilk is at the pencil mark for the second intermediatewrap.Then doanother 6 turns of silk and continue to the third wrap etcetcetc........At the end either finish as usual or just put in a few halfhitchesafter the last intermediate.e) Coat each intermediate withsay two /three brushed coats of varnishapplied with a fine brush.f)After the last coat of varnish has dried remove the unwanted lengthsofspiralling thread with a sharp scalpel blade.g)Dip / finish the rod as perones usual method i.e dip, spray, brush orpoured !Now that should explain how it'sdone ?Tight lines .........Paul Todd Talsmawrote: Paul,I'm having a hard time getting this through mythick skull. Maybe Ijust got hit too many times playing basketball thismorning.How is this done? If it is one thread, how do they start thenext wrapand have it stay in place?"paul.blakley"wrote: Sean,You have not quite hit the nail on the head!Intermediates are usually one length of thread going fromintermediateto intermediate...........the intermediates are then dabbedwithvarnish.When this has dried the joining thread is trimmed offbeforefinally dipping the rod..............PaulSean McSharrywrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away with the need topull theend of the thread under? In case this sounds like a heresy, Imentionstripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the 1920s, to findthat thevery numerous intermediate wraps were not finished (norstarted) bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them on over adab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while the varnish dried. SeanJeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I amcrazy.Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that,even afterspending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking itoroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect whendry,but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilutevarnishon my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it.Any flawsshow up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit itwith theburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rathersurprising whatcan be fixed.25% varnish, 75%thinner.It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clearwrap thatallows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks youforgot toerase. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland . --------------050202000006030702010206-- from ttalsma@macatawa.org Tue Oct 16 14:55:24 2001 f9GJtN421363 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:55:23 - id ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:49:25 -0400 id TH24N3RN; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:49:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Intermediate Wraps That's really why I asked the question Harry. I was just being sneaky. Is it OK for me to use this Paul? Also forward your web site address tome so I can set up a link. Thanks. Harry Boyd wrote: Todd, You do realize that this one belongs in the Tips Archive, don't you? This isgreat. I think I'll do intermediates on my next rod just for the fun of it. Thanks Paul,Harry "paul.blakley" wrote: Todd, It's really easy........a)Whip/wrap the rod rings etc as usual.b)Mark on the spacings for the intermediate wraps with a light pencil.c)Start off the first intermediate as you would any wrap, I use 6 turnsof silk per wrap but onus is on the individual and the thickness ofthread one uses and ones personal preference !d)Then using the same spool of silk continue spiraling/rotating the roduntil the silk is at the pencil mark for the second intermediatewrap.Then do another 6 turns of silk and continue to the third wrap etcetc etc........At the end either finish as usual or just put in a few half hitchesafter the last intermediate.e) Coat each intermediate with say two /three brushed coats of varnishapplied with a fine brush.f) After the last coat of varnish has dried remove the unwanted lengthsof spiralling thread with a sharp scalpel blade.g)Dip / finish the rod as per ones usual method i.e dip, spray, brush orpoured ! Now that should explain how it's done ? Tight lines .........Paul Todd Talsma wrote: Paul, I'm having a hard time getting this through my thick skull. Maybe Ijust got hit too many times playing basketball this morning. How is this done? If it is one thread, how do they start the next wrapand have it stay in place? "paul.blakley" wrote: Sean,You have not quite hit the nail on the head !Intermediates are usually one length of thread going fromintermediateto intermediate...........the intermediates are then dabbed withvarnish.When this has dried the joining thread is trimmed off beforefinally dipping the rod..............Paul Sean McSharry wrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away with the need to pulltheend of the thread under? In case this sounds like a heresy, Imentionstripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the 1920s, to findthat thevery numerous intermediate wraps were not finished (nor started)bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them on over a dab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while the varnish dried. Sean Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I amcrazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that,even afterspending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it oroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfectwhen dry,but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremelydilute varnishon my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it.Any flawsshow up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it withtheburnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprisingwhatcan be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrapthatallows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks youforgot toerase. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htm genealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm >Frompaul.blakley@ntlworld.com Tue Oct 16 14:58:47 2001 Received: from mta02- f9GJwj421858 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:58:43 +0100 Message-ID:Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:56:29 paul.blakley@ntlworld.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; I) X- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Intermediate Wraps References:Content-Type: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN In my experience( I havecompared all of two identical rods with and without intermediates) thedifference is not discernable......Paul jmpio@nhbm.com wrote: Does anyone have any opinions on how much using intermediates on, say, 5"centers is going to slow down your basic 7' 4wt. rod? -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:45 PM Cc: Todd Talsma; RodmakersSubject: Re: Intermediate Wraps Todd, You do realize that this one belongs in the Tips Archive, don't you?This isgreat. I think I'll do intermediates on my next rod just for the fun of it. Thanks Paul,Harry "paul.blakley" wrote: Todd, It's really easy........a)Whip/wrap the rod rings etc as usual.b)Mark on the spacings for the intermediate wraps with a light pencil.c)Start off the first intermediate as you would any wrap, I use 6 turnsof silk per wrap but onus is on the individual and the thickness ofthread one uses and ones personal preference !d)Then using the same spool of silk continue spiraling/rotating the roduntil the silk is at the pencil mark for the second intermediatewrap.Then do another 6 turns of silk and continue to the third wrap etcetc etc........At the end either finish as usual or just put in a few half hitchesafter the last intermediate.e) Coat each intermediate with say two /three brushed coats of varnishapplied with a fine brush.f) After the last coat of varnish has dried remove the unwanted lengthsof spiralling thread with a sharp scalpel blade.g)Dip / finish the rod as per ones usual method i.e dip, spray, brush orpoured ! Now that should explain how it's done ? Tight lines .........Paul Todd Talsma wrote: Paul, I'm having a hard time getting this through my thick skull. Maybe Ijust got hit too many times playing basketball this morning. How is this done? If it is one thread, how do they start the next wrapand have it stay in place? "paul.blakley" wrote: Sean,You have not quite hit the nail on the head !Intermediates are usually one length of thread going fromintermediateto intermediate...........the intermediates are then dabbed withvarnish.When this has dried the joining thread is trimmed off beforefinally dipping the rod..............Paul Sean McSharry wrote: Jeff: Are you implying that you can do away with the need to pull the end of the thread under? In case this sounds like a heresy, I mention stripping down a 16' Hardy salmon rod from the 1920s, to findthat the very numerous intermediate wraps were not finished (nor started)bypulling under. I suppose they must have laid them on over a dab ofvarnish, so they would stay in place while the varnish dried. Sean Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Pearsall's Gossamer for everything, but everyone knows I amcrazy. Here is a trick: the problem with Pearsall's gossamer is that, even after spending weeks learning to wrap the stuff without breaking it oroverwrapping, you can still end up with a wrap that looks perfect when dry, but shows flaws when varnished. I keep a bottle of extremely dilute varnish on my wrapping bench, and put a drop on each wrap as I finish it. Any flaws show up immediately, and you have about a minute to hit it with the burnishing tool before it begins to tack up. It is rather surprising what can be fixed. 25% varnish, 75% thinner. It also tacks everything in place and gives a beautiful clear wrap that allows a clear view of the guide foot and the pencil marks you forgot to erase. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from edriddle@mindspring.com Tue Oct 16 15:13:33 2001 f9GKDW423032 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:13:32 -0500 Subject: Re: So. Bend rod Bret:Yeah I do. Orange and Black Jasper.Ed Subject: So. Bend rod OOPS sorry guys. I am getting ready to build a rod based on the So. =Bend 290. Does anyone have the proper tread color for this and does =anyone have an original that has not bee mucked with so I can get the = Bret: Jasper.Ed ----- Original Message ----- Grhghlndr@aol.com rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001= PMSubject: So. Bend rodOOPSsorry = anyone have the proper tread color for this and does anyone have an = that has not bee mucked with so I can get the proper thread. = from Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com Tue Oct 16 15:25:56 2001 f9GKPu423787 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:25:56 - 2001 -0400 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:17:46 -0400 id ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:14:34 -0400 Subject: RE: Silk Thread I do the same...Naples still looks very translucent when varnished. Gossameris just great for tipping. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Silk Thread I like Pearsall's Naples silk for main wraps, Gossamer fpr tipping. Marty Todd Talsma wrote: All, What size silk are all of you using for your wraps? I've made a few changes to the tips site, thanks to all for the binder,beveller, etc photos. Keep them coming!--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 16 16:10:58 2001 f9GLAw426070 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:10:58 - for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:10:57 - Subject: Re: two handed trout rods? What about Milward's hollow built 13' 10 wt? Page 109. You could re-work itif you thought it too heavy a line, or too long. M-D After reading what Milward wrote about the 2-handed trout rods of100 years ago, I think I'd like to try one. Does anyone have ataper for a such a thing? In the archives there's a 10ft 6wt(Reed Curry's Kim-Bob Dream Machine from Greyrock 1998):http://www.uwm.edu/cgi- bin/stetzer/search2.pl/rm9806.629but no indication if its 2-handed or the "kind" of rod Milward istalking about. Any ideas? The taper of the Dream Machine looksquite light for its length and line weight, to my eyes. I'dprobably have to cut way back on the coffee to cast it.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Tue Oct 16 17:00:14 2001 f9GM0D428457 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:00:13 - Subject: Chatsworth Game fair 2001 If any reader is visiting the Chatsworth Fishing Fair in the UK thiscoming weekend and would like to meet up with a few Bamboo/Split Canerod bods please contact me off the list...thanks.......Paul from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Oct 16 17:36:03 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9GMa2400047 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:36:02 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:36:01 -0500 "'RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu '" Subject: RE: two handed trout rods? Below is a Bil Waara 12'6" spey taper listed by Frank Stetzer some timeback, I believe it was also in the Planing Form May/June '97 though I don'thave that. It's a 3-piece rod with ferruse 24 and 15 64ths. I don't knowwhat line it was intended for, but judging by the tip it couldn't have beenvery heavy. This looks to me like the moral equivelent of a two handed speyrod for trout. Barry 0 0.0785 0.10210 0.11815 0.13620 0.15425 0.17030 0.18435 0.20040 0.21645 0.23050 0.24455 0.25860 0.27265 0.28670 0.30075 0.31280 0.32485 0.33690 0.34895 0.358100 0.368105 0.378110 0.388115 0.398120 0.410125 0.422130 0.430135 0.430140 0.430145 0.430150 0.430 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: two handed trout rods? What about Milward's hollow built 13' 10 wt? Page 109. You could re-workitif you thought it too heavy a line, or too long. M-D After reading what Milward wrote about the 2-handed trout rods of100 years ago, I think I'd like to try one. Does anyone have ataper for a such a thing? In the archives there's a 10ft 6wt(Reed Curry's Kim-Bob Dream Machine from Greyrock 1998):http://www.uwm.edu/cgi- bin/stetzer/search2.pl/rm9806.629but no indication if its 2-handed or the "kind" of rod Milward istalking about. Any ideas? The taper of the Dream Machine looksquite light for its length and line weight, to my eyes. I'dprobably have to cut way back on the coffee to cast it.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from jmpio@nhbm.com Tue Oct 16 18:02:23 2001 f9GN2M400813 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:02:22 - id ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:05:56 -0600 Subject: Any Boise Area Makers? As many of you know, I'm a novice maker, with one decent rod (and oneshi**yone) under my belt. I live in Boise, Idaho. I've now been informed of thename of one other rod maker in the Boise area. I was wondering whether anyof the other list members are in Boise or nearby communities? James M. Piotrowski from piscator@macatawa.org Tue Oct 16 19:01:10 2001 f9H019402410 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:01:09 - Subject: Re: So. Bend rod Black/Orange jasper. I think Darryl has some original stuff for sale. =Dick Spurr might have some. Check E-bay, too. I have one in the shop for some work if you get up this way. Brian too. I have one in the shop for some work if= this way. Brian from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Oct 16 19:10:24 2001 f9H0AK402837 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:10:21 - Subject: RE: two handed trout rods? Here is the kind of rod I'm interested in trying, from Milward'sbook starting at the bottom of page 106: "Two-handed fly rods are not universally understood. If we use twohands, a double-haul cast is not possible. The classic English rodsof the early 1900s were frequently 10 or 11ft long and sported a twoor three finger grip section, below the reel seat. "The rod was usually for a double taper #6 or #7 (by modern line standards) and slow in action. The result was a rod for river and stream which could pick up a fly from anywhere up to 70ft and, with oneflick or roll, could place the fly with precision, anywhere in a 70 ftradius. The delightful, slow line speed and delivery and delicacymade possible with this method is completely outside the experienceof most fly fishers today. The presentation and control a long lightrod gave for trout fly fishing was superb." Sounds like fun to me. Then, Milward goes on to explain the tradeoffs involved in thistaper design. from his explanation, these rods do seem to be like spey rods but a couple feet shorter and a couple line weightslighter.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from joseus@cybertech.com.ar Tue Oct 16 19:29:12 2001 f9H0TB403498 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:29:11 - f9GNdDP12837 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:39:13 -0300 Subject: Hola de nuevo Hola amigos. Despues de varios dias de estar incomunicado. Yo sufri la =rotura del moden de mi PC. Voy a tener que ponerme al dia con mi correo. =Ya enviare a Jojo, a Claude y a Tony las imagenes prometidas. Ya termine =el planing form de para mi vara cuadrada. Ya tengo terminado el tip de =la misma. Yo estoy acostumbrado a trabajar con la vara exagonal. La =cuadrada es mucho mas dificil. Yo creo que me he metido en un lio y no =se como terminara. Pero son muy buenos los desafios. Estube leyendo =sobre los ferrules. Yo utilizo acero inoxidable. En Argentina no se =fabrican barras de Nikel Silver. Lo unico que consigo es tubos de 3mm, =4mm, 5mm, y nada mas. Si, consigo comprar lamina de Nikel Silver de 0,5 =mm y 1 mm . Argentina no pertenece al primer mundo. Nosotros estamos en=el 25 mundo. Esta vara cuadrada yo la encolare con adhesivo casero. Yo =encontre en un libro antiguo una formula . Se prepara con 1 Kg de =caseina. 180 Gs de cal viva en polvo. 50 Gs de carbonato de sodio. 70 Gs =de Fluoruro de sodio. Se preparan 2 Lts de agua por cada Kg de la =preparacion anterior. Yo espero que de buenos resultados. Ya informare =al respecto. =BF alguien conoce algo de esta antigua formula ? Si =ustedes piensan que yo estoy loco. Yo respondere que si, pero solo un =poco. Bueno mis queridos amigos. Yo los saludo afectuosamente y hasta =pronto. Alberto. Hello friends. After several days of being solitary. I suffered the =break of the moden of my PC. I will have to become up-to-date with my =mail. I will already send to Jojo, to Claude and Tony the engaged =images. Already finish the planing form of for my square stick. I =already have ended the tip of the same one. I am accustomed to work with =the stick exagonal. The square one is a lot but difficult. I believe =that I have entered in a mess and one doesn't eat it finished. But they =are very good the challenges. Estube reading on the ferrules. I use =stainless steel. In Argentina bars of Nikel Silver is not manufactured. =The only thing that I get is tubes of 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, and anything but. =If, I am able to buy sheet of Nikel Silver of 0,5 mm and 1 mm. Argentina =doesn't belong to the first world. We are in the 25 world. This square =stick I will glue it with homemade adhesive. I found in an old book one =it formulates. He/she gets ready with 1 Kg of casein. 180 Gs of powdered =alive lime. 50 Gs of carbonate of sodium. 70 Gs of Fluoride of sodium. 2 =Lts of water gets ready for each Kg of the previous preparation. I wait =that of good results. I will already inform in this respect. somebody =something of this old one knows it formulates? If you think that I am =crazy. I will respond that if, but alone a little. Good my dear friends. = Hola amigos. Despues de varios dias de estar incomunicado. Yo sufri = del moden de mi PC. Voy a tener que ponerme al dia con mi correo. Ya = Jojo, a Claude y a Tony las imagenes prometidas. Ya termine el planing = acostumbrado a trabajar con la vara exagonal. La cuadrada es mucho mas = Yo creo que me he metido en un lio y no se como terminara. Pero son muy = los desafios. Estube leyendo sobre los ferrules. Yo utilizo acero = Argentina no se fabrican barras de Nikel Silver. Lo unico que consigo es = de 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, y nada mas. Si, consigo comprar lamina de Nikel Silver= mm y 1 mm . Argentina no pertenece al primer mundo. Nosotros estamos en= mundo. Esta vara cuadrada yo la encolare con adhesivo casero. Yo = libro antiguo una formula . Se prepara con 1 Kg de caseina. 180 Gs de = en polvo. 50 Gs de carbonato de sodio. 70 Gs de Fluoruro de sodio. Se = Lts de agua por cada Kg de la preparacion anterior. Yo espero que de = resultados. Ya informare al respecto. =BF alguien conoce algo de esta = formula ? Si ustedes piensan que yo estoy loco. Yo respondere que si, = un poco. Bueno mis queridos amigos. Yo los saludo afectuosamente y hasta = Alberto.Hello friends. After several days of being solitary. I suffered the = the moden of my PC. I will have to become up-to-date with my mail. I = already send to Jojo, to Claude and Tony the engaged images. Already = planing form of for my square stick. I already have ended the tip of the = one. I am accustomed to work with the stick exagonal. The square one is = but difficult. I believe that I have entered in a mess and one doesn't = finished. But they are very good the challenges. Estube reading on the = I use stainless steel. In Argentina bars of Nikel Silver is not = The only thing that I get is tubes of 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, and anything but. = able to buy sheet of Nikel Silver of 0,5 mm and 1 mm. Argentina doesn't = to the first world. We are in the 25 world. This square stick I will = with homemade adhesive. I found in an old book one it formulates. He/she = ready with 1 Kg of casein. 180 Gs of powdered alive lime. 50 Gs of = sodium. 70 Gs of Fluoride of sodium. 2 Lts of water gets ready for each = the previous preparation. I wait that of good results. I will already = this respect. somebody something of this old one knows it formulates? If = think that I am crazy. I will respond that if, but alone a little. Good = from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Oct 16 19:54:11 2001 f9H0sB404250 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:54:11 - Subject: RE: two handed trout rods? Frank - The taper that barry posted is the one that Chris Bogart used forthe Shenandoah spey. It is a slow action 7 weight that performs pretty much the way Bob described it. Fun on a big river, and maybe on smaller ones too, but I have not tried it from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 20:12:18 2001 f9H1CI405204 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:12:18 - Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:12:16 -0700 Subject: Re: response to Silk Thread varnish question FILETIME=[C2AFCC40:01C156A8] Danny: I use Varmor R-10 on both wraps and the rod. I thin the rod varnish by about15% and the initial wrap varnish by about 75%. I heat it WAY hotter than isprobably safe, but it goes on thin and beautifully. And I have a big fireextinguisher. Jeff from sats@gte.net Tue Oct 16 20:18:48 2001 f9H1Il405626 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:18:47 - for ; id f9H1Iej06393 Subject: Testing guide spacing. placement of my guides. First I work out the spacing, according to the length of the rod, number ofsections and location of the ferrules. Then I tape the guides in place, run afly line through them and put the rod in a jig. I put enough pressure on therod to put a nice bend in it, about 90·. Then I measure the distance from the rod to the line, between snake guides.If I've done it right, the distance is about 1in and will be almost exactly thesame for each guide set all the way to the stripper. If it's not right one ormore of the spacing will be greater then the others. I adjust the snakes andtry again. When all the measurements from the bend in the rod to the linearewithin about 1/8 in. I measure the locations and then wrap the rod...----------------------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/sats > from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com TueOct 16 20:21:43 2001 f9H1Lg405953 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:21:42 - Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:21:37 -0700 "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: black and orange Jasper Silk Thread FILETIME=[10FE12C0:01C156AA] I have been playing with this stuff and like the color, but as is it is toogarish for my taste, and with my varnish it is so dark that it becomes moreof a brown/black. Does anyone know a way to tone it down just a bit? Jeff from Troutgetter@aol.com Tue Oct 16 20:22:39 2001 f9H1Mc406133 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:22:38 - Subject: Re: Hola de nuevo Alberto,I wish I spoke Spanish ... I'd drink a beer with you anytime! to have a beer with! Best Regards,Mike Shay Alberto,I wish I spoke Spanish ... I'd drink a beer with you anytime! like to have a beer with! Best Regards,Mike Shay from sats@gte.net Tue Oct 16 20:25:02 2001 f9H1P1406481 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:25:01 - for ; id f9H1Idj06375 Subject: 6ft 2wt 2p. I've been screwing around with one for some time now. Finally got it to castbetter then it had been. Tested it Sunday afternoon and boy do those littleBluegill put a bend in that thing. It fished very well. I think I'm abouthappy with it. I'll try to post the taper when I get the time.-------------- --------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/sats from HomeyDKlown@att.net Tue Oct 16 20:27:08 2001 f9H1R8406764 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:27:08 - ;Wed, 17 Oct 2001 01:27:06 +0000 ,"Rodmakers List" Subject: RE: black and orange Jasper Silk Thread Jeff, Yes. You can ship it to me! Just kidding... Sort of. Have you tried color preserver or heavily thinnedvarnish? Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: black and orange Jasper Silk Thread I have been playing with this stuff and like the color, but as is it is toogarish for my taste, and with my varnish it is so dark that it becomes moreof a brown/black. Does anyone know a way to tone it down just a bit? Jeff from piscator@macatawa.org Tue Oct 16 20:42:13 2001 f9H1g7407836 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:42:07 - ,"Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: black and orange Jasper Silk Thread You might try a coat of clear lacquer to act as a preserver. Not sure ifthat would do it. All I've ever done is varnish it with spar thinned 50/50with mineral spirits and then full strength. Might take 3 or 4 coats to geta decent color. Try contacting Michael Sinclair. He'd probably know whatSB used to do. Brian from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 16 21:27:02 2001 f9H2R1409813 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:27:02 - for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:26:59 - Subject: Re: Hola de nuevo Alberto, Me hab=EDa preguntado por usted porque te no has escribido en un rato. =Pens=E9 que te hab=EDa muerto, pero ya veo que lo estuvo tu computador =que hab=EDa muerto. ;o)Ese vago Guillermo Magari=F1os deber=E1 haber estado ac=E1 para SRG pero=no s=E9 qu=E9 se hacer=E1. (Hey, Guillermo. =BFEstar=E1 veniendo, s=ED o=no?) Si vendr=E1 nos podremos comprar barras redondas de Niquel Plata =para ti y se podr=E9 traer ellos con =E9l cuando regresar=E1 a =Argentina. (=BFQu=E9 piensa Guillermo?)Yo nunca uso adhesivo de casein pero he leido que lo es muy fuerte y ha =estado usando para fabricar las ca=F1as de bamb=FA. El problema con lo =es que es muy pronto para endurecer. Haces lo que quieras. Si este =adhesivo no funcionar apropriadamente despues nos se puede decir. ;o)(Para mi amigo C=E9sar: Te no he olvido. Estoy muy activo como de =costumbre. Enviar=E9 los documentos anterior a cuando marcho para SRG =esta pr=F3xima semana.) M-D Alberto, I had been wondering about you because you had not written in a while. I =thought that you had died but now I see that it was your computer that =had died.That bum Guillermo Magari=F1os is supposed to be here for SRG, but I =don't know what he will do. (Hey, Guillermo. Are you coming?) If he =comes we can buy some round stock of Nickel Silver for you and he can =bring them with him when he returns to Argentina. (What do you think, =Guillermo?)I have never used casein glue but I have read that it is very strong and =has been used for making bamboo rods. The problem with it is that it is =quick to set up. You do whatever you want. If this glue doesn't work =properly then you can tell us.(For my friend C=E9sar: I have not forgotten about you. I am very busy =as usual. I will send the documents before I leave for SRG this next =week.) M-D Subject: Hola de nuevo Hola amigos. Despues de varios dias de estar incomunicado. Yo sufri la =rotura del moden de mi PC. Voy a tener que ponerme al dia con mi correo. =Ya enviare a Jojo, a Claude y a Tony las imagenes prometidas. Ya termine =el planing form de para mi vara cuadrada. Ya tengo terminado el tip de =la misma. Yo estoy acostumbrado a trabajar con la vara exagonal. La =cuadrada es mucho mas dificil. Yo creo que me he metido en un lio y no =se como terminara. Pero son muy buenos los desafios. Estube leyendo =sobre los ferrules. Yo utilizo acero inoxidable. En Argentina no se =fabrican barras de Nikel Silver. Lo unico que consigo es tubos de 3mm, =4mm, 5mm, y nada mas. Si, consigo comprar lamina de Nikel Silver de 0,5 =mm y 1 mm . Argentina no pertenece al primer mundo. Nosotros estamos en=el 25 mundo. Esta vara cuadrada yo la encolare con adhesivo casero. Yo =encontre en un libro antiguo una formula . Se prepara con 1 Kg de =caseina. 180 Gs de cal viva en polvo. 50 Gs de carbonato de sodio. 70 Gs =de Fluoruro de sodio. Se preparan 2 Lts de agua por cada Kg de la =preparacion anterior. Yo espero que de buenos resultados. Ya informare =al respecto. =BF alguien conoce algo de esta antigua formula ? Si =ustedes piensan que yo estoy loco. Yo respondere que si, pero solo un =poco. Bueno mis queridos amigos. Yo los saludo afectuosamente y hasta =pronto. Alberto. Hello friends. After several days of being solitary. I suffered the =break of the moden of my PC. I will have to become up-to-date with my =mail. I will already send to Jojo, to Claude and Tony the engaged =images. Already finish the planing form of for my square stick. I =already have ended the tip of the same one. I am accustomed to work with =the stick exagonal. The square one is a lot but difficult. I believe =that I have entered in a mess and one doesn't eat it finished. But they =are very good the challenges. Estube reading on the ferrules. I use =stainless steel. In Argentina bars of Nikel Silver is not manufactured. =The only thing that I get is tubes of 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, and anything but. =If, I am able to buy sheet of Nikel Silver of 0,5 mm and 1 mm. Argentina =doesn't belong to the first world. We are in the 25 world. This square =stick I will glue it with homemade adhesive. I found in an old book one =it formulates. He/she gets ready with 1 Kg of casein. 180 Gs of powdered =alive lime. 50 Gs of carbonate of sodium. 70 Gs of Fluoride of sodium. 2 =Lts of water gets ready for each Kg of the previous preparation. I wait =that of good results. I will already inform in this respect. somebody =something of this old one knows it formulates? If you think that I am =crazy. I will respond that if, but alone a little. Good my dear friends. = Alberto, Me hab=EDapreguntado por = te no has escribido en un rato. Pens=E9 que te hab=EDa muerto, = lo estuvo tu computador que hab=EDa muerto. ;o)Ese vago Guillermo = haber estado ac=E1 para SRG pero no s=E9 qu=E9 se hacer=E1. (Hey, = veniendo, s=ED o no?) Si vendr=E1 nos podremos comprar barras redondas = Plata para ti y se podr=E9 traer ellos con =E9l cuando regresar=E1 a = piensa Guillermo?)Yo nunca uso adhesivode = ;o)(Para mi amigoC=E9sar: = olvido. Estoy muy activo como de costumbre. Enviar=E9 los documentos = semana.) M-D Alberto, I had been wondering = because you had not written in a while. I thought that you had died but = see that it was your computer that had died.That bum Guillermo = supposed to be here for SRG, but I don't know what he will do. (Hey, = Are you coming?) If he comes we can buy some round stock of Nickel = you and he can bring them with him when he returns to Argentina. (What = think, Guillermo?)I have never usedcasein = have read that it is very strong and has been used for making bamboo = problem with it is that it is quick to set up. You do whatever you want. = glue doesn't work properly then you can tell us.(For my friendC=E9sar: I = forgotten about you. I am very busy as usual. I will send the documents = leave for SRG this next week.) M-D ----- Original Message ----- Usman Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001= PMSubject: Hola de nuevo Hola amigos. Despues de varios dias de estar incomunicado. Yo sufri = rotura del moden de mi PC. Voy a tener que ponerme al dia con mi = enviare a Jojo, a Claude y a Tony las imagenes prometidas. Ya termine = planing form de para mi vara cuadrada. Ya tengo terminado el tip de la = Yo estoy acostumbrado a trabajar con la vara exagonal. La cuadrada es = mas dificil. Yo creo que me he metido en un lio y no se como = son muy buenos los desafios. Estube leyendo sobre los ferrules. Yo = acero inoxidable. En Argentina no se fabrican barras de Nikel Silver. = que consigo es tubos de 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, y nada mas. Si, consigo comprar= de Nikel Silver de 0,5 mm y 1 mm . Argentina no pertenece al primer = Nosotros estamos en el 25 mundo. Esta vara cuadrada yo la encolare con = adhesivo casero. Yo encontre en un libro antiguo una formula . Se = 1 Kg de caseina. 180 Gs de cal viva en polvo. 50 Gs de carbonato de = preparacion anterior. Yo espero que de buenos resultados. Ya informare = respecto. =BF alguien conoce algo de esta antigua formula ? Si ustedes = que yo estoy loco. Yo respondere que si, pero solo un poco. Bueno mis = amigos. Yo los saludo afectuosamente y hasta pronto. =Alberto.Hello friends. After several days of being solitary. I suffered the = of the moden of my PC. I will have to become up-to-date with my mail. = already send to Jojo, to Claude and Tony the engaged images. Already = the planing form of for my square stick. I already have ended the tip = same one. I am accustomed to work with the stick exagonal. The square = lot but difficult. I believe that I have entered in a mess and one = it finished. But they are very good the challenges. Estube reading on = ferrules. I use stainless steel. In Argentina bars of Nikel Silver is = manufactured. The only thing that I get is tubes of 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, and = anything but. If, I am able to buy sheet of Nikel Silver of 0,5 mm and = Argentina doesn't belong to the first world. We are in the 25 world. = square stick I will glue it with homemade adhesive. I found in an old = it formulates. He/she gets ready with 1 Kg of casein. 180 Gs of = lime. 50 Gs of carbonate of sodium. 70 Gs of Fluoride of sodium. 2 Lts = water gets ready for each Kg of the previous preparation. I wait that = results. I will already inform in this respect. somebody something of = one knows it formulates? If you think that I am crazy. I will respond = but alone a little. Good my dear friends. Me the greeting = until soon. Alberto. = from jczimny@dol.net Wed Oct 17 08:25:07 2001 f9HDP6419627 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:25:07 - Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: (no subject) Tom Ausfield. Please contact me off list.John Zimny from Canerods@aol.com Wed Oct 17 10:24:01 2001 f9HFO0426704 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:24:00 - for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:23:50 - Subject: Great Western Rodmakers Gathering (Oct 19, 20, 21) This is a reminder that the Bishop, California rodmakers gathering is this upcoming weekend. Bob Venneri has again sent me a box of his great looking reelseats to have available at a special discounted price. Plus Bob has donated one reelseat to be given away to a lucky attendee. Also, there's going to be bamboo culms available to anyone interested. Pelase let Chcuck Irvine know if you are planning on buying culms. I hear that Zimmy's attending this too. I guess he'll win this years longest distance award? Lot's of great stream and lake fly fishing exists in the local area. The recent "Double-Haul" float tube fly fishing event on Crowley Lake had some really big browns and rainbows. A trout (all C&R) had to measure 18" to be counted towards an angler's total - the event winner had 5 or 6 fish of that size, I believe. Not a bad day's total. See ya all there. Don Burns GW website is: http://www.orphanlaptops.com/gw2001.htm This is a reminder thatthe Bishop, California rodmakers gathering is this upcoming weekend. Bob Venneri has again sent me a box of his great looking reelseats tohave available at a special discounted price. Plus Bob has donated one reelseat to be given away to a lucky attendee. Also, there's going to be bamboo culms available to anyone interested.Pelase let Chcuck Irvine know if you are planning on buying culms. I hear that Zimmy's attending this too. I guess he'll win this yearslongest distance award? Lot's of great stream and lake fly fishing exists in the local area. Therecent "Double-Haul" float tube fly fishing event on Crowley Lake had somereally big browns and rainbows. A trout (all C&R) had to measure 18" tobe counted towards an angler's total - the event winner had 5 or 6 fish ofthat size, I believe. Not a bad day's total. See ya all there. Don Burns GW website is: from ttalsma@macatawa.org Wed Oct 17 11:15:27 2001 f9HGFO429240 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:15:24 - id ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:09:26 -0400 id TH24N30L; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:09:23 -0400 Subject: Re: "O" Rings I was just going through my mailbox (only 442 saved messages in therodmaking category) looking for tip archive stuff and noticed thismessage. Does anyone have any responses to this? Just curious, seemslike it should work, but what do I know. Gabriele Moultrie wrote: Hi, Firstly thankyou for the information on wet strips, a great help. Going through another back issue of the Planing Form (no i'm not the newsales manager) I noticed an article on a way to "bind" a glued blankwith rubber "o" rings instead of using the usual string or whatever.The writer wrote that he uses rubber rings mounted on a hollow brasstube which he then slips over the freshley glued blank and at a numberof places down the blank he slides a rubber "o" ring off the brass tubeand onto the splines which, once dry, need no further straightening. Has anyone used this method? As a boy I used to work on farms in South West England and they usedrubber rings and a set of "pliers" with four prongs to spread the ringsto castrate young bulls (the ring was left in place until the bullsballs dropped off). My father, an aircraft engineer.....no, no, notwhat you're thinking..... says they used a similar idea for strappingairplane electrical cables together. Does anyone use these "pliers" to apply the "o" rings? Thankyou Stuart -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htm genealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm >Fromhartzell@easystreet.com Wed Oct 17 12:40:24 2001 Received: from Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:40:47-0700 From: Ed Hartzell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 TSmithwick@aol.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Phosphorbronze References: Content-Type: hartzell@easystreet.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Tim,You are absolutely right. My mistake. Phosphor bronze is OK. It is theBerryllium copper that is dangerous. Good to hear from you and thanks forthe correction. Ed TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: Hi Ed - I have never heard that, and I work in the metal business. Are yousure you are not thinking of Beryllium Copper? There definitely are someissues with inhaled particles of that stuff. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Oct 17 14:17:23 2001 f9HJHM408476 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:17:22 - Subject: Ferrule order All who have sent in orders please get ahold of me, I have talked to REC and will have final pricing. Bret All who have sent inorders please get ahold of me, I have talked to REC and will have final pricing. Bret from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Oct 17 14:17:50 2001 f9HJHn408543 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:17:49 - Subject: Bill Hoy Contact me off list please.Bret Contact me off listplease.Bret from thogan@rochester.rr.com Wed Oct 17 15:48:05 2001 f9HKm4413693 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:48:04 - f9HKlxh04002; Subject: Re: "O" Rings I second the motion. This seems way too logical. What are we missing?Any response from those that have tried this or have an opinion, I encourageyou to tell your story. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: "O" Rings I was just going through my mailbox (only 442 saved messages in therodmaking category) looking for tip archive stuff and noticed thismessage. Does anyone have any responses to this? Just curious, seemslike it should work, but what do I know. Gabriele Moultrie wrote: Hi, Firstly thankyou for the information on wet strips, a great help. Going through another back issue of the Planing Form (no i'm not the newsales manager) I noticed an article on a way to "bind" a glued blankwith rubber "o" rings instead of using the usual string or whatever.The writer wrote that he uses rubber rings mounted on a hollow brasstube which he then slips over the freshley glued blank and at a numberof places down the blank he slides a rubber "o" ring off the brass tubeand onto the splines which, once dry, need no further straightening. Has anyone used this method? As a boy I used to work on farms in South West England and they usedrubber rings and a set of "pliers" with four prongs to spread the ringsto castrate young bulls (the ring was left in place until the bullsballs dropped off). My father, an aircraft engineer.....no, no, notwhat you're thinking..... says they used a similar idea for strappingairplane electrical cables together. Does anyone use these "pliers" to apply the "o" rings? Thankyou Stuart --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Oct 17 15:57:43 2001 f9HKvg414492 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:57:42 - Subject: REC order rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Does anyone need cork. I am putting in an order to REC and I need to makeup the cork order in order to get a discount on it. Bret Does anyone need cork. order to get a discount on it. Bret from homes-sold@home.com Wed Oct 17 16:34:46 2001 f9HLYj417190 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:34:45 - femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:34:43 -0700 "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: "O" Rings . "O" rings work great and to me are a sanitary way to do the job. They arealso readily available in a variety ofsizes.Don----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: "O" Rings I second the motion. This seems way too logical. What are we missing?Any response from those that have tried this or have an opinion, I encourageyou to tell your story. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: "O" Rings I was just going through my mailbox (only 442 saved messages in therodmaking category) looking for tip archive stuff and noticed thismessage. Does anyone have any responses to this? Just curious, seemslike it should work, but what do I know. Gabriele Moultrie wrote: Hi, Firstly thankyou for the information on wet strips, a great help. Going through another back issue of the Planing Form (no i'm not the newsales manager) I noticed an article on a way to "bind" a glued blankwith rubber "o" rings instead of using the usual string or whatever.The writer wrote that he uses rubber rings mounted on a hollow brasstube which he then slips over the freshley glued blank and at a numberof places down the blank he slides a rubber "o" ring off the brass tubeand onto the splines which, once dry, need no further straightening. Has anyone used this method? As a boy I used to work on farms in South West England and they usedrubber rings and a set of "pliers" with four prongs to spread the ringsto castrate young bulls (the ring was left in place until the bullsballs dropped off). My father, an aircraft engineer.....no, no, notwhat you're thinking..... says they used a similar idea for strappingairplane electrical cables together. Does anyone use these "pliers" to apply the "o" rings? Thankyou Stuart --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from bob@downandacross.com Wed Oct 17 16:46:30 2001 f9HLkT418793 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:46:30 - ,"Rodmakers List" Subject: RE: "O" Rings Don:What sizes would you be able to get/want and where from? (Obviously itdepends on the blank size.)Thanks, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: "O" Rings . "O" rings work great and to me are a sanitary way to do the job. They arealso readily available in a variety ofsizes.Don from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Wed Oct 17 16:46:45 2001 f9HLki418823 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:46:44 - OAA25165; "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: "O" Rings If I have many more flyrods my roommate says she use those O rings onme......losey----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: "O" Rings I second the motion. This seems way too logical. What are we missing?Any response from those that have tried this or have an opinion, I encourage you to tell your story. ----- Original Message -----From: "Todd Talsma" Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:12 PMSubject: Re: "O" Rings I was just going through my mailbox (only 442 saved messages in therodmaking category) looking for tip archive stuff and noticed thismessage. Does anyone have any responses to this? Just curious, seemslike it should work, but what do I know. Gabriele Moultrie wrote: Hi, Firstly thankyou for the information on wet strips, a great help. Going through another back issue of the Planing Form (no i'm not the new sales manager) I noticed an article on a way to "bind" a glued blankwith rubber "o" rings instead of using the usual string or whatever.The writer wrote that he uses rubber rings mounted on a hollow brasstube which he then slips over the freshley glued blank and at a numberof places down the blank he slides a rubber "o" ring off the brass tube and onto the splines which, once dry, need no further straightening. Has anyone used this method? As a boy I used to work on farms in South West England and they usedrubber rings and a set of "pliers" with four prongs to spread the rings to castrate young bulls (the ring was left in place until the bullsballs dropped off). My father, an aircraft engineer.....no, no, notwhat you're thinking..... says they used a similar idea for strappingairplane electrical cables together. Does anyone use these "pliers" to apply the "o" rings? Thankyou Stuart --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from quiet_reed@hotmail.com Wed Oct 17 17:22:36 2001 f9HMMZ421221 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:22:35 - Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:22:26 -0700 Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:22:26 GMT Subject: Bamboo Rod Casting Demonstrations FILETIME=[33B90080:01C1575A] Hi: I've been lurking for a while, but I thought I would enter the forum with a project that I've been thinking about for the past few months. I've been using bamboo rods for the past 2 or 3 years, rods that were given to me by friends and constructed quite a while ago. In the past year or so, I have been using rods made by two Oregon rodmakers, Gary Lohkamp and AJ Thramer. More recently, AJ is kindly helping me with my first rod, putting up with far more abuse of his equipment than he ever planned:( My proposed project is based on the fact that I believe more people would try/buy/build bamboo rods if they only had the opportunity to cast them and perhaps have a chance to talk with the rodmaker themselves. Many retail outlets are reluctant to carry bamboo rods because of the perceived costand fragility of the rods. I thought it would be nice if there were some place where rodmakers and would-be purchasers or builders could meet, cast some rods, and ask all sorts of questions about bamboo rods and rod building. After talking with some of the members of the Santiam Fly Casters ofSalem, Oregon, I broached the idea of having bamboo rod casting demonstrations (I really don't know what else to call it) during their annual Fly Fishing Fair, held at the beginning of April at Willamette University (Salem, OR). They have used Willamette's gym as a place to teach casting and try out rods. The addition of bamboo rods would not be a change in the event. Alternately, the local Orvis store, Fly Country Outfitters, has a casting pond in the office complex where they are located, and they have indicated a strong interest in helping with the event. What does the group think of this idea? Are there rodmakers within driving distance of Salem who would be interested in bringing samples of their rods some of his rods, so that's a good start for now. Please let me know off list about your thoughts, since I don't want to crowd the group's bandwidth. Thanks for any responses. Don ChenCorvallis, Oregon quiet_reed@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from homes-sold@home.com Wed Oct 17 17:35:20 2001 f9HMZJ422370 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:35:19 - femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:35:22 -0700 , ,"Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: "O" Rings Loews has any size you want. Look in the area of the store where they havethe "tip out" drawers for small parts. I doubled-up one time using "O" ringsand fished a rod, that also worked. I even carry a few different sizes lacedon a safety pin with me on trips just in case, but have never needed them.Anyone for shrink tubing?----- Original Message ----- ; "Rodmakers List" Subject: RE: "O" Rings Don:What sizes would you be able to get/want and where from? (Obviously itdepends on the blank size.)Thanks, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: "O" Rings . "O" rings work great and to me are a sanitary way to do the job. They arealso readily available in a variety ofsizes.Don from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 17 18:38:27 2001 f9HNcQ427596 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:38:26 - Rodmakers List Subject: Re: "O" Rings It may be a sanitary way to do the job but perhaps we should seek the adviceofa veterinarian before we start putting "O" rings on out testicles. Unless ofcourse my friend Bill wants to do some "experimenting" before reportingback tothe group.Terry Don Schneider wrote: . "O" rings work great and to me are a sanitary way to do the job. They arealso readily available in a variety ofsizes.Don----- Original Message ----- From: "taylor hogan" Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:46 PMSubject: Re: "O" Rings I second the motion. This seems way too logical. What are we missing?Any response from those that have tried this or have an opinion, Iencourageyou to tell your story. ----- Original Message -----From: "Todd Talsma" Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:12 PMSubject: Re: "O" Rings I was just going through my mailbox (only 442 saved messages in therodmaking category) looking for tip archive stuff and noticed thismessage. Does anyone have any responses to this? Just curious, seemslike it should work, but what do I know. Gabriele Moultrie wrote: Hi, Firstly thankyou for the information on wet strips, a great help. Going through another back issue of the Planing Form (no i'm not thenewsales manager) I noticed an article on a way to "bind" a glued blankwith rubber "o" rings instead of using the usual string or whatever.The writer wrote that he uses rubber rings mounted on a hollow brasstube which he then slips over the freshley glued blank and at a numberof places down the blank he slides a rubber "o" ring off the brass tubeand onto the splines which, once dry, need no further straightening. Has anyone used this method? As a boy I used to work on farms in South West England and they usedrubber rings and a set of "pliers" with four prongs to spread the ringsto castrate young bulls (the ring was left in place until the bullsballs dropped off). My father, an aircraft engineer.....no, no, notwhat you're thinking..... says they used a similar idea for strappingairplane electrical cables together. Does anyone use these "pliers" to apply the "o" rings? Thankyou Stuart --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from pumpkin10@prodigy.net Wed Oct 17 18:39:07 2001 f9HNd6427710 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:39:07 - f9HNd2m118864 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:39:02 -0400 Subject: Ebay #1020015996 Item on ebay #1020015996 Uslan milling machine, not good pictures, any =body know any thing about it.Tony Larson Item on ebay #1020015996 Uslanmilling = good pictures, any body know any thing about it. Tony Larson from sats@gte.net Wed Oct 17 18:47:11 2001 f9HNlA428256 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:47:10 - ; id SAA30772887 Subject: Re: Bluing forms? Guess I'm low-tech 'cause I just use good ole 3 in 1 oil on mine. Well, atleast I have good intentions of using it. Most of the time, I just let them getrusty and sand them down a little!! The hundreds of folks who saw minethisweekend at the Southern FFF Conclave can attest to more than a few rustspots.But they still make good fishin' poles. Harry,Have you tried a little candle wax? Seems to work on the sole of my planes...Just rub it in till you get a nice gloss. Just like spit shining boots in thearmy.----------------------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/sats from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 17 18:48:59 2001 f9HNmw428477 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:48:58 - (authenticated) for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:48:38 -0700 Subject: Interesting eBay auction --------------10C298CF54AD0AB00F0C7C82 Thought some of you might be interested. I have noconnection or affiliatin whatsoever. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1020015996 The description calls this an Uslan bamboo mill. Harry--Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------10C298CF54AD0AB00F0C7C82 affiliatin whatsoever. cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1020015996 The description calls this an Uslan bamboo mill.Harry--Harry Boyd --------------10C298CF54AD0AB00F0C7C82-- from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 17 19:28:20 2001 f9I0SJ400038 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:28:19 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Interesting eBay auction Harry,Hell, I'm gonna bid on it... may work, may be a piece of junk, but =you never can tell. If nothing else it would make another good roughing =mill! LOL Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 6:45 PMSubject: Interesting eBay auction Thought some of you might be interested. I have no connection or = http://cgi.ebay.com/aw- Harry, would make another good roughing mill! LOL Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Harry= Sent: Wednesday, October 17, = PMSubject: Interesting eBay =auction from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Wed Oct 17 19:31:14 2001 f9I0VD400422 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:31:13 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:20:14 -0500 Subject: RE: Interesting eBay auction This is in Houston. I sent a message to the seller asking if I can go lookat it. Anyone out there seriously interested? I can take more pix, checktolerances, whatever if anyone is. Let me know. TAM-----Original Message----- Subject: Interesting eBay auction Thought some of you might be interested. I have no connection or affiliatinwhatsoever. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item=1020015996 The description calls this an Uslan bamboo mill. Harry -- Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rods http://www.fbcwin.com/ OurChurch > from bob@downandacross.com Wed Oct 17 19:38:37 2001 GLDLTH02.Y4D; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:39:17 -0400 From: "Downandacross , , "Rodmakers List-serv" Subject: RE: Interesting eBay auction Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X- Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Hi Troy: I don't know ifeveryone picked up on the link (At bottom of his description) to the galleryof pics of it, but there were 26 or so. I would like to see the saw personally.There are plently of mill pics on the site. Thanks, Bob -----Original Message--- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of Miller, Troy Sent: Wednesday, Subject: RE: Interesting eBay auction This is in Houston. I sent a message tothe seller asking if I can go look at it. Anyone out there seriously interested?I can take more pix, check tolerances, whatever if anyone is. Let me know.TAM > from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Wed Oct 17 19:47:29 2001 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) by Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Oct 200119:33:28 -0500 Message-ID:From: "Miller, Troy" fbcwin@3g.quik.com, Rodmakers List-serv Subject: RE: Interesting eBay auction Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:41:56 - Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Well apparently the owner isn't taking any calls. I've done the "ask the sellera question" thing, and about five minutes later I get a message back that"arlclamot@aol.com is not accepting messages". So I tried e-mailing himdirect, without going through e-bay's messaging system (now that I know hisaddress). Same thing back again. So I don't know how I will get ahold of him tolook at it. I'll try some more tomorrow. TAM -----Original Message----- From: fbcwin@3g.quik.com; Rodmakers List-serv Subject: RE: Interesting eBayauction Hi Troy: I don't know if everyone picked up on the link (At bottom ofhis description) to the gallery of pics of it, but there were 26 or so. I wouldlike to see the saw personally. There are plently of mill pics on the site.Thanks, Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of Miller, Troy Sent: Wednesday, Subject: RE: Interesting eBay auction This is in Houston. I sent a message tothe seller asking if I can go look at it. Anyone out there seriously interested?I can take more pix, check tolerances, whatever if anyone is. Let me know.TAM > from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 17 21:29:18 2001 Received: from Subject: Belmont rod Date: Wed, 17 Oct MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 caneman@clnk.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENAnyone out there remember who made rods simply marked "Belmont"? I'veseen one, but can't remember and can't find any notes on it. Thanks inadvance, Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker Custom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm >Fromif6were9@bellsouth.net Wed Oct 17 21:55:45 2001 Received: from f9I2ti406838 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 ; Wed,17 Oct 2001 22:56:45 -0400 Message-ID:Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:52:01 -0500 From: Custom Built Fishing Rods X-Mailer: Subject: Re: Interesting eBay auction Content-Type: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN -------------- it not be a safe bet that it was used to make large (diameter) rods fortrolling and such? Wouldn't smaller cutters be required to cut fly rod sizedstrips? I am not much of a bamboo historian so I may be out in left field withmy assumption regarding it's original use. Bob Nunley wrote: Harry, Hell, I'm gonna bid on it... may work, may be a piece ofjunk, but you never can tell. If nothing else it would make anothergood roughing mill! LOL Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: Harry Boyd Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 6:45 PMSubject: Interesting eBay auctionThought some of you might be interested. I have noconnection or affiliatin whatsoever. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1020015996 The description calls this an Uslan bamboo mill. Harry--Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------79905F8A8A71909B26C83185 Coming from a Miami based company would it not be a safe bet that it was much of a bamboo historian so I may be out in left field with my assumptionregarding it's original use.Bob Nunley wrote: Hell, I'm gonna bid on it... may work, may be a piece of junk, but you Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ----- Original Message ----- From:HarryBoyd List-serv Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 20016:45 PM Subject: Interesting eBayauction or affiliatin whatsoever. cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1020015996 The description calls this an Uslan bamboo mill.Harry--Harry Boyd Bamboo Rods Our Church --------------79905F8A8A71909B26C83185-- from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Oct 18 00:13:23 2001 f9I5DN410388 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:13:23 - for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:13:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Interesting eBay auction Cutter size probably wouldn't make too much of a difference in this =case.You would not be cutting a radius. The cutter could be 3" or 3/4" and =still would make no difference. Because your cutting either a flat or an =angle.At least by the way the picture looks.:)) Ray Gould's book (Pg. 58)shows =a smaller (More modern) version of this machine. The one in the book =appears to have a 60=B0 horizontal mill cutter in it. www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Cutter size probably wouldn't make too= difference in this case.You would not be cutting a radius. The = either a flat or an angle. = smaller (More modern) version of this machine. The one in the book = www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from dmanders@telusplanet.net Thu Oct 18 07:46:32 2001 f9ICkV414957 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:46:31 -0500 Subject: At the risk of sounding like Terry A Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guide performance and got back 4responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how I got fishing so much. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize over thread wraps, dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of other things that make thefishing poles we make look good. What we seem to be missing is that we arebuilding fishing poles. They are meant to be used. Or perhaps, I'm out tolunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on the scene, the bulk of guyswho wrote about them were impressed by their finish and fit. No mention ofhow long they might last. And this is only one example of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any idea what brand of snakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use my equipment hard. I don'twant to spend time in the shop replacing guides and refinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testing could be done to ratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them to death. If the fishing todeath idea is the only answer, I may never live long enough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, this would seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer became apparent. In my case,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don from JNL123141@msn.com Thu Oct 18 07:51:45 2001 f9ICpj415268 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:51:45 - Thu, 18 Oct 2001 05:51:43 -0700 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: "O" Rings FILETIME=[A3B55310:01C157D3] My wife wants to know where she can get some of those "O" rings....... My wifewants = from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Oct 18 08:09:02 2001 f9ID92415770 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:09:02 - f9ID91Z12460 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:09:01 -0500 Subject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A Don,I can't answer your question on how long they would last. I can say that theseare the nicest guides I have seen and Mike and Susan are real down to earthpeople. I have met them. What I would suggest is contacting Mike and presentthe question to him.I am sure if he knows the answer he will give you a straight reply one way orthe other.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guide performance and got back4responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how I got fishing so much. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize over thread wraps, dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of other things that make thefishing poles we make look good. What we seem to be missing is that wearebuilding fishing poles. They are meant to be used. Or perhaps, I'm out tolunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on the scene, the bulk of guyswho wrote about them were impressed by their finish and fit. No mentionofhow long they might last. And this is only one example of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any idea what brand of snakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use my equipment hard. I don'twant to spend time in the shop replacing guides and refinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testing could be done to ratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them to death. If the fishing todeath idea is the only answer, I may never live long enough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, this would seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer became apparent. In my case,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 09:16:55 2001 f9IEGs418272 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:16:54 -0500 18 Oct 2001 07:16:58 PDT Subject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A snakebrand guides are suppose to be harder and lastalot longer. the maker has the data. call him up andask him. here is the web page. http://www.snakeguides.com/ if i want to make wallhangers what's it to you and why is it a concern toanyone? timothy --- Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guideperformance and got back 4responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how Igot fishing so much. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize overthread wraps, dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of otherthings that make thefishing poles we make look good. What we seem to bemissing is that we arebuilding fishing poles. They are meant to be used.Or perhaps, I'm out tolunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on thescene, the bulk of guyswho wrote about them were impressed by their finishand fit. No mention ofhow long they might last. And this is only oneexample of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any ideawhat brand of snakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use myequipment hard. I don'twant to spend time in the shop replacing guides andrefinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testingcould be done to ratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them todeath. If the fishing todeath idea is the only answer, I may never live longenough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, thiswould seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer becameapparent. In my case,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 18 10:19:28 2001 f9IFJR421168 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:19:27 -0500 Subject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A Trying to sound like a day in day out contributor to rodmakers, how longwould a set of tires last in hours? how long is a piece of string?Terry Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guide performance and got back4responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how I got fishing so much. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize over thread wraps, dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of other things that make thefishing poles we make look good. What we seem to be missing is that wearebuilding fishing poles. They are meant to be used. Or perhaps, I'm out tolunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on the scene, the bulk of guyswho wrote about them were impressed by their finish and fit. No mentionofhow long they might last. And this is only one example of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any idea what brand of snakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use my equipment hard. I don'twant to spend time in the shop replacing guides and refinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testing could be done to ratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them to death. If the fishing todeath idea is the only answer, I may never live long enough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, this would seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer became apparent. In my case,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don from dwscott@blclinks.net Thu Oct 18 10:22:22 2001 f9IFML421539 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:22:21 -0500 f9IFGEB02317 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:16:14 -0400 Subject: beginning rod builder I am a long time avid fly fisherman; tie my own flies, fish with a cane rod(among others) who would like to investigate building cane rods. I live inRochester, MI (Detroit Metro area) and I am looking for either a group orindividual I can speak with to begin my investigation. Any suggestions? from dmanders@telusplanet.net Thu Oct 18 11:28:35 2001 f9IGSY424905 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:28:34 -0500 Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:28:32 -0600 Subject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A Timothy, If all the chit chat about tapers, the best glues, the superb finishes,humidity control, blah and so on really matter, you'd think the fittingsthat we install on our rods would matter.Tapers, glue, fittings, finishes, humidity matter if these are fishingrods. Otherwise - the gloss and the gleam are all thats important.I build fishing rods and I owe it to myself and most of all to my customersto use the best quality fittings I can get.In most cases, the parts, chemicals and processes that we use are adequate number of folks to determine @ least in their own mind what is the bestproduct or process.In a similar vein, I asked if there was anyone had some experience testingguides. If I didn't want to know, I wouldn't asked. Seems like some folkshave come up with some. Certainly, some folks may be thinking about thesubject and that should advance the building of bamboo fishing rods - notsure what it might do to the wall hanger market.And I will be contacting Snake Guide and see if they have done some testingor could point me the way to some ideas. regards, Don At 07:16 AM 10/18/01 -0700, timothy troester wrote: snakebrand guides are suppose to be harder and lastalot longer. the maker has the data. call him up andask him. here is the web page. http://www.snakeguides.com/ if i want to make wallhangers what's it to you and why is it a concern toanyone? timothy --- Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guideperformance and got back 4responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how Igot fishing so much. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize overthread wraps, dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of otherthings that make thefishing poles we make look good. What we seem to bemissing is that we arebuilding fishing poles. They are meant to be used.Or perhaps, I'm out tolunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on thescene, the bulk of guyswho wrote about them were impressed by their finishand fit. No mention ofhow long they might last. And this is only oneexample of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any ideawhat brand of snakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use myequipment hard. I don'twant to spend time in the shop replacing guides andrefinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testingcould be done to ratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them todeath. If the fishing todeath idea is the only answer, I may never live longenough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, thiswould seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer becameapparent. In my case,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Oct 18 11:33:14 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9IGXD425365 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:33:13 -0500 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:33:13 -0500 Subject: RE: At the risk of sounding like Terry A That was an excellent immitation, Terry. My $0.02: I'm just an amateur but those who want to sell a lot of rods knowthat consumers care about all that appearance stuff. It's a tough way tomake a living, they need all they help they can get, and us amateurs arelucky when they're willing to share what they know. Second, there are those not only about catching fish or we'd use dynamite, chum made of ground upworm fishermen, etc. It's the way a bamboo rod casts that gets me going,andI don't really give a damn if the varnish has bumps in it. But if someoneelse finds it rewarding to make a rod with a perfect finish that makes justas much and just as little sense as my own priorities. I hope I've made it clear by this discussion how long a piece of string is. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A Trying to sound like a day in day out contributor to rodmakers, how longwould a set of tires last in hours? how long is a piece of string?Terry Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guide performance and got back 4 responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how I got fishing so much. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize over thread wraps, dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of other things that make thefishing poles we make look good. What we seem to be missing is that wearebuilding fishing poles. They are meant to be used. Or perhaps, I'm out tolunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on the scene, the bulk of guyswho wrote about them were impressed by their finish and fit. No mentionofhow long they might last. And this is only one example of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any idea what brand of snakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use my equipment hard. I don'twant to spend time in the shop replacing guides and refinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testing could be done to ratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them to death. If the fishing to death idea is the only answer, I may never live long enough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, this would seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer became apparent. In my case,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Oct 18 12:07:01 2001 f9IH70427404 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:07:00 - for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:07:02 -0400 Subject: cosmetics Cosmetics are more important than most rodmakers like to admit.Sure, the action and taper are first and foremost. But Cosmetics is what =separates us as artist. I can make the same taper as another maker, but, =can I make as Beautiful or artfully crafted piece as the next guy.In some cases yes, in some case NO. It's NOT just a fishing rod in my =mind. Its a piece of art, that should conjure up images of wonderful =days on the stream. I have been known to just sit and stare at bamboo =rods.And my wife sometimes say's "Would you rather take that fly rod to bed?" =I wouldn't give a nickel for a great casting rod that casted greatbut looked like S**t. Remember, I'm the guy who thinks there is no such =thing as a bad casting Bamboo fly rod.:)) They are all different ,but =all good. Some better, some worse.And here it comes:)) www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Cosmetics are more important thanmost = like to admit.Sure, the action and taper are first = as the next guy.In some cases yes, in some case NO. = just a fishing rod in my mind. Its a piece of art, that should conjure = of wonderful days on the stream. I have been known to just sit and stare = bamboo rods.And my wife sometimes say's "Wouldyou = casted greatbut looked like S**t. Remember, I'm the= thinks there is no such thing as a bad casting Bamboo fly rod.:)) They = different ,but all good. Some better, some worse.And here it comes:)) www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 18 12:09:35 2001 f9IH9Y427698 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:09:34 -0500 Subject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A I used to live in Northern Queensland in sugar cane country where it's very hot and wet during the monsoon with a mountain range pretty close to the coast so there were lots of great winding roads of the type you see in old James Bond movie car chases. I had a pretty fast car with lots of grunt and not much in the way of handling and used Pirelli Winter Compound tiers to keep it on the tar. They stuck sh!t to a blanket on the road and I do remember getting almost 3 months from a set. These days I get a lot longer from a set but the tiers I use are like wet choko skins by comparison. Then again I drive like I want to make it to the destination. The string question warrants some thought. Is it cotton or nylon, new or used, and expected to be recylicable? Also, is it expected to be heat treated and coated or impregnated before use? Most importantly, can ithave any knots in it's length? Tony At 11:21 AM 10/18/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Trying to sound like a day in day out contributor to rodmakers, how longwould a set of tires last in hours? how long is a piece of string?Terry Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guide performance and gotback 4responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how I got fishing so much. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize over thread wraps, dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of other things that make thefishing poles we make look good. What we seem to be missing is that wearebuilding fishing poles. They are meant to be used. Or perhaps, I'm out tolunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on the scene, the bulk ofguyswho wrote about them were impressed by their finish and fit. No mentionofhow long they might last. And this is only one example of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any idea what brand of snakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use my equipment hard. I don'twant to spend time in the shop replacing guides and refinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testing could be done to ratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them to death. If the fishing todeath idea is the only answer, I may never live long enough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, this would seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer became apparent. In mycase,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Oct 18 12:21:18 2001 f9IHLH428393 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:21:17 - for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:21:16 -0400 Subject: Re:beginning rod builder Hi David Welcome! to the list.How is Paint Creek fishing? fished it many times.:))I live about 2 hours from you in Defiance ,Ohio (real close to Toledo)Your welcome to stop by and see my setup. I can help you get started if =you like.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Hi David Welcome! to the =list.How is Paint Creek fishing? fished it = times.:))I live about 2 hours from you in = (real close to Toledo)Your welcome to stop by and see my = help you get started if you like.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 18 12:25:41 2001 f9IHPd428769 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:25:39 -0500 Subject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A Sorry, that should have been:They stuck _like_ sh!t to a blanket on the road and I do remember getting almost 3 months from a set. /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 18 12:29:04 2001 f9IHT3429166 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:29:03 - for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:28:54 - Subject: perfectionism D62B725DC050F93437D379ED" --------------D62B725DC050F93437D379ED Hi pals,I dug this out of a book I have recently read and I immediately thoughtof all you "artists".Striving for excellence is healthy, gratifying and attainable. However,aiming for perfection is frustrating, neurotic and a waste of time.Comments?Terry --------------D62B725DC050F93437D379ED Hi pals,I dug this out of a book I have recently read and I immediately thoughtof all you "artists".Striving for excellence is healthy, gratifying and attainable.However,aiming for perfection is frustrating, neurotic and a waste of time.Comments?Terry --------------D62B725DC050F93437D379ED-- from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Oct 18 12:32:15 2001 f9IHWE429631 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:32:14 - KAA18987 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:32:12 - Subject: snake guide wearing out Snake guides wear out? I've been fly fishing for 25 years and have not =had any guides wear out. Now mind you I fish a good amount but I am one =of those wierdos that have more fly rods then common sense. So I guess =no one rod has had enough wear to need new guides. And my way of =thinking if my snake guides are wearing out I am going to do one of two =things 1. Buy a new rod or make one (any excuse is a good one)2. Stop false casting to much. 1 - 3 false cast instead of 10-20 will =extend the life of those guides. As to making a beautiful rod, if an ugly rod cast fantastic strip it = Shoot women to it all the time. Adam Vigil Snake guides wear out? I've been fly = years and have not had any guides wear out. Now mind you I fish a good = but I am one of those wierdos that have more fly rods then common sense. = guess no one rod has had enough wear to need new guides. And my way of = things 1. Buy a new rod or make one (any = one)2. Stop false casting to much. 1 - 3 = instead of 10-20 will extend the life of those guides. As to making a beautiful rod, if an = fantastic strip it down and give it a make over. Shoot women to it all the =time. AdamVigil from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 18 12:34:44 2001 f9IHYg429982 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:34:42 - Subject: Re: perfectionism You'd be completely besotted with my stuff then [:-)] At 01:30 PM 10/18/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Hi pals,I dug this out of a book I have recently read and I immediately thought of all you "artists".Striving for excellence is healthy, gratifying and attainable. However, aiming for perfection is frustrating, neurotic and a waste of time.Comments?Terry /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Thu Oct 18 12:40:02 2001 f9IHe0400616 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:40:00 - Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:39:32 -0400 Subject: Re: cosmetics Tony, Your comments are timely considering what happened to me last night. At =our monthly TU meeting, of which I am president, one of the members came=to me and basically said he was hell bent to buy one of my rods. Now =keep in mind that he has seen my first rod and that it is the only rod =that I currently have completed. But he wants one for his dad in the =worst way and alluded to the fact that business was good for him last = It casts alright although I'm looking forward to comparing it to some =other Perfectionists at SRG but in all honesty the cosmetics on my first =rod stink. I'm thinking of spraying it with rustoleum before SRG so the =rest of you guys will never see how bad it really looks. I just haven't =decided on a color ;^). Also he hasn't said the first thing about =taper, length, weight or anything else you would want to know before =buying a bamboo rod. It's bamboo, he wants one. You know I'm flattered =but I don't have any plans to sell to anyone before I'm satisfied with =what I'm putting out. I guess what I am trying to say is that I think there is a group out =there and it may be small that lust after a bamboo rod without knowing =anything about castability or appearance but just because it is bamboo. =I probably belonged to that group before I chose to travel down this =path. Now though, my view is that as a maker I have two objectives to =meet. 1) to make a tool that satisfactorily performs the job it is =intended for and 2) to make a rod that someone would be proud to own. =No add a third objective: a rod that I am proud to have others own. It =may be a long time before I am comfortable selling any of my rods. That's my 2 cents on the subject, I just found it somewhat interesting =how eager this guy was last night and thought it would fit with this =topic Tim Subject: cosmetics Cosmetics are more important than most rodmakers like to admit.Sure, the action and taper are first and foremost. But Cosmetics is =what separates us as artist. I can make the same taper as another maker, =but, can I make as Beautiful or artfully crafted piece as the next guy.In some cases yes, in some case NO. It's NOT just a fishing rod in my =mind. Its a piece of art, that should conjure up images of wonderful =days on the stream. I have been known to just sit and stare at bamboo =rods.And my wife sometimes say's "Would you rather take that fly rod to =bed?" I wouldn't give a nickel for a great casting rod that casted greatbut looked like S**t. Remember, I'm the guy who thinks there is no =such thing as a bad casting Bamboo fly rod.:)) They are all different =,but all good. Some better, some worse.And here it comes:)) www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Tony, Your comments are timely considering= of the members came to me and basically said he was hell bent to buy one = in the worst way and alluded to the fact that business was good for him = It casts alright although I'm looking = rustoleum before SRG so the rest of you guys will never see how bad it = You know I'm flattered but I don't have any plans to sell to anyone = satisfied with what I'm putting out. I guess what I am trying to say is that = there is a group out there and it may be small that lust after a bamboo = without knowing anything about castability or appearance but just = the job it is intended for and 2) to make a rod that someone would be = rods. That's my 2 cents on the subject, I = somewhat interesting how eager this guy was last night and thought it = with this topic Tim ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Thursday, October 18, = PMSubject: cosmetics Cosmetics are more important than = like to admit.Sure, the action and taper are first = artfully crafted piece as the next guy.In some cases yes, in some case NO. = just a fishing rod in my mind. Its a piece of art, that should conjure = images of wonderful days on the stream. I have been known to just sit = stare at bamboo rods.And my wife sometimes say's "Would = rod that casted greatbut looked like S**t. Remember, I'm = thinks there is no such thing as a bad casting Bamboo fly rod.:)) They = different ,but all good. Some better, some worse.And here it comes:)) www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jmpio@nhbm.com Thu Oct 18 12:40:12 2001 f9IHeB400640 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:40:11 - id ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:43:50 -0600 Subject: RE: perfectionism this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Striving for excellence is healthy, gratifying and attainable. However, aiming for perfection is > frustrating, neurotic and a waste of time. Comments? Last May I broke the single tip opn my first rod. The rod was castingbeautifully right up until that moment. Couple months ago I built a newtip. I have spent the last 8 weeks varnishing, steelwooling, varnishingsome more, removing wraps, redoing wraps, revarnishing, more steelwool,morevarnish, the other night I decided I didn't like grip or reelseat, so I tookthem off, installed a new grip, turned a cork reelseat, now I'm unhappy withthe quality of the cork used for the reel seat, so I'm debating whether tofill the holes, or entirely re do it. As you can tell, I've been "aiming of time. (Oh yeah, I'm barely even started on the wooden rod case I'vedecided to make for this rod). The other amusing part is that while I havebeen "aiming for perfection" all I've achieved could just as easily havebeen done if I'd kept my sanity and merely "strived for excellence." healthy, gratifying and attainable. However, aiming for perfection waste of new varnishing some more, removing wraps, redoing wraps, revarnishing, more a the reel seat, so I'm debating whether to fill the holes, or entirely re do this been "aiming for perfection" all I've achieved could just as easily have been from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Oct 18 12:42:19 2001 f9IHgI401105 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:42:18 - for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:42:20 -0400 Subject: Re:perfectionism That about sounds right:))I'm neurotic,frustrated,and have a tendency to waste time.But I still make killer rods.:)) did I mention artist are egotistic by =nature. Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html That about soundsright:))I'm neurotic,frustrated,and have a = waste time. mention artist are egotistic by nature. Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Oct 18 12:48:40 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9IHmd401689 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:48:39 -0500 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:48:44 -0500 Subject: RE: At the risk of sounding like Terry A And further regarding the string.... end.The question simply asked how long it is. Maybe Terry was thinking "how longto the end from this here place where I'm grabbing it with two fingersgreasy from work on the milling machine that will stun all those dummies onthe list." Personally I think I know the answer, and it is also the correct answer tomany of the questions on the list. The answer is "don't know." Barry "Zen Boy" Kling -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A I used to live in Northern Queensland in sugar cane country where it's very hot and wet during the monsoon with a mountain range pretty close to the coast so there were lots of great winding roads of the type you see in old James Bond movie car chases. I had a pretty fast car with lots of grunt and not much in the way of handling and used Pirelli Winter Compound tiers to keep it on the tar. They stuck sh!t to a blanket on the road and I do remember getting almost 3 months from a set. These days I get a lot longer from a set but the tiers I use are like wet choko skins by comparison. Then again I drive like I want to make it to the destination. The string question warrants some thought. Is it cotton or nylon, new or used, and expected to be recylicable? Also, is it expected to be heat treated and coated or impregnated before use? Most importantly, can ithave any knots in it's length? Tony At 11:21 AM 10/18/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Trying to sound like a day in day out contributor to rodmakers, how longwould a set of tires last in hours? how long is a piece of string?Terry Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guide performance and got back 4 responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how I got fishing so much. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize over thread wraps, dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of other things that make thefishing poles we make look good. What we seem to be missing is that we are building fishing poles. They are meant to be used. Or perhaps, I'm out to lunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on the scene, the bulk of guys who wrote about them were impressed by their finish and fit. No mention of how long they might last. And this is only one example of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any idea what brand of snakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use my equipment hard. I don't want to spend time in the shop replacing guides and refinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testing could be done to ratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them to death. If the fishing to death idea is the only answer, I may never live long enough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, this would seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer became apparent. In mycase,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Oct 18 12:49:31 2001 f9IHnV401849 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:49:31 - for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:49:33 -0400 Subject: Re:Cosmetics/Tim That is the same way I think. And your right there are alot of people =who don't study up on Tapers. They just want a rod that looks and casts =good. You must be doing good. It took me a half a year to sell my first =rod.:)) It makes you want to make the next one 10 times better doesn't =it?:)) It's a great feeling.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html = there are alot of people who don't study up on Tapers. They just want a = looks and casts good. You must be doing good. It took me a half a year = my first rod.:)) It makes you want to make the next one 10 times better = it?:)) It's a great feeling.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Oct 18 12:50:08 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9IHo8402078 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:50:08 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:50:09 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: perfectionism this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Thank you Terry, this is a point I've tried to make, but never thiswell....Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: perfectionism Hi pals, I dug this out of a book I have recently read and I immediately thought ofall you "artists". Striving for excellence is healthy, gratifying and attainable. However,aiming for perfection is frustrating, neurotic and a waste of time. Comments? Terry Thank you Terry, this is a point I've tried to make, but never this well....Barry -----Original Message-----From: T. Ackland 2001 12:31 perfectionismHi pals, I dug this out of a bookI have recently read and I immediately thought of all you "artists".Striving perfection is frustrating, neurotic and a waste of time.Comments? Terry from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 18 12:52:06 2001 f9IHq4402383 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:52:04 -0500 Subject: RE: At the risk of sounding like Terry A I guess it's even trickier to answer if it's tied end to end. I know, I know not rodmaking contend. At 12:48 PM 10/18/01 -0500, Kling, Barry W. wrote: And further regarding the string.... end.The question simply asked how long it is. Maybe Terry was thinking "howlongto the end from this here place where I'm grabbing it with two fingersgreasy from work on the milling machine that will stun all those dummies onthe list." Personally I think I know the answer, and it is also the correct answer tomany of the questions on the list. The answer is "don't know." Barry "Zen Boy" Kling -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 12:14 PM Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustL.eduSubject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A I used to live in Northern Queensland in sugar cane country where it's veryhot and wet during the monsoon with a mountain range pretty close to thecoast so there were lots of great winding roads of the type you see in oldJames Bond movie car chases. I had a pretty fast car with lots of grunt andnot much in the way of handling and used Pirelli Winter Compound tiers tokeep it on the tar. They stuck sh!t to a blanket on the road and I doremember getting almost 3 months from a set. These days I get a lotlonger from a set but the tiers I use are like wet choko skins by comparison. Then again I drive like I want to make it to the destination. The string question warrants some thought. Is it cotton or nylon, new orused, and expected to be recylicable? Also, is it expected to be heattreated and coated or impregnated before use? Most importantly, can ithaveany knots in it's length? Tony At 11:21 AM 10/18/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Trying to sound like a day in day out contributor to rodmakers, how longwould a set of tires last in hours? how long is a piece of string?Terry Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guide performance and got back 4 responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how I got fishing so much. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize over thread wraps,dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of other things that makethefishing poles we make look good. What we seem to be missing is thatwe are building fishing poles. They are meant to be used. Or perhaps, I'm out to lunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on the scene, the bulk of guys who wrote about them were impressed by their finish and fit. Nomention of how long they might last. And this is only one example of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any idea what brand ofsnakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use my equipment hard. I don't want to spend time in the shop replacing guides and refinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testing could be done toratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them to death. If the fishing to death idea is the only answer, I may never live long enough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, this would seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer became apparent. In mycase,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Thu Oct 18 12:54:56 2001 f9IHsu402722 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:54:56 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:45:21 -0500 Subject: RE: snake guide wearing out The only guides I have ever seen to wear out in my 30 years of FF are tiptops on rods. The abrupt change in angle and high friction that resultsseems to be much more destructive than the shallow angles between thesnakes. And the only rods that have had tip wear are those thatconsistently see backing. My king salmon rods and my offshore rod have hadtip tops replaced for that reason. I have never had any guides wear outthat have only seen flyline. Here is a tip: Clean your flyline EVERY time you cast the rod. And sometimes stop duringfishing to clean it, if conditions warrant. Dirty line will destroy bothrod and line much faster. I'm going to plead ignorance on the effects of silk lines, since I havenever fished them. They may act exactly like backing and have a 10X wearfactor compared to PVC. If anyone takes pity on me and feels the need to Troy Miller539 Meadow Creek Dr.Bellville, TX 77418 Please indicate approximate line wt and taper, if known. : )-----Original Message----- Subject: snake guide wearing out Snake guides wear out? I've been fly fishing for 25 years and have not hadany guides wear out. Now mind you I fish a good amount but I am one of thosewierdos that have more fly rods then common sense. So I guess no one rodhashad enough wear to need new guides. And my way of thinking if my snakeguides are wearing out I am going to do one of two things 1. Buy a new rod or make one (any excuse is a good one)2. Stop false casting to much. 1 - 3 false cast instead of 10-20 will extendthe life of those guides. As to making a beautiful rod, if an ugly rod cast fantastic strip it downand give it a make over. Shoot women to it all the time. Adam Vigil from oandc@email.msn.com Thu Oct 18 13:11:27 2001 f9IIBQ403905 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:11:26 - Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:02:05 -0700 Subject: Fw: Bamboo Mill FILETIME=[3BE37580:01C157EE] Gentlemen,I sent an email to the company that made the milling machine on ebay. I = Best regards,Wayne Subject: Re: Bamboo Mill theA600 was designed and built to be a tool & cutter grinder. It went =out of production along time ago. ( 1940's ) The closest machine we have =to day that is current is a BA960B this is a balltrack table cutter =grinder. It sounds to me that your application is to use the macine for =a special purpose. If this is the case then we might reccoment a B2000X = If you are looking for a used machine, I know where we can find some =cream puffs for low dollars. Regards: Jeff Harris Subject: Bamboo Mill I'm interested in a bamboo mill I understand your company made. It is =Model No. A600. Do you still produce this mill or was this a special =order idem? Any manufacturing and pricing information you could provide =would be appreciated.Thank you.Wayne Kifer ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/01 Gentlemen,I sent an email to the company that = milling machine on ebay. I thought you might be interested in the = Best regards,Wayne From:Jeff =Harris Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 5:29 AMSubject: Re: Bamboo Mill Dear Wayne theA600 was designed and built to be a= cutter grinder. It went out of production along time ago. ( 1940's ) The = machine we have to day that is current is a BA960B this is a balltrack = cutter grinder. It sounds to me that your application is to use the = special purpose. If this is the case then we might reccoment a B2000X = grinder. price aproximatley $10,000.00 If you are looking for a used machine, = we can find some cream puffs for low dollars. Regards: Jeff Harris ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, October 17, = PMSubject: Bamboo Mill I'm interested in a bamboo mill I = company made. It is Model No. A600. Do you still produce this mill or = provide would be appreciated.Thank you.Wayne Kifer ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = 9/25/01 from mrmac@tcimet.net Thu Oct 18 13:15:46 2001 f9IIFj404328 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:15:45 -0500 helo=tcimet.net) id 15uHhe-0006io-00; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:15:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Snake Guide Performance Don,Well, ya know, I sorta hate to be constructive about this wheneveryone's having so much fun and all, but....couldn't you set up acontinuous loop of some flyline, or perhaps braided nylon, (or, evensilk - isn't it supposed to be the most abrasive?) and run a smallmotor, with a couple idler pulleys arranged to put maybe about a 150*angle on the line through a test guide, or set of guides if you did itright, and then just check them every couple days for how long it tookto wear through? Personally, I would expect that the TiC would outlast TiN which wouldoutlast Chrome, which would outlast conventional snakes, but I don'treally *know*, just guessin'. I sure am envious that you get to fish a WHOLE lot more than I do![;-)] How many sets of waders.....nahhhhh,....nevermind...... Hope this gives you, or someone looking to run some experiments, some Best regards, mac from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 18 13:16:48 2001 f9IIGl404574 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:16:47 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: perfectionism I'm frustrated over my health, grateful to be neurotic (rather than =psychotic) and have worked my entire life to attain the ability to =properly waste time... In short... form AND function! *S* Getting my vitamins and valium now, but taking extra time to plan the =proper route to the medicine cabinet! Bob I dug this out of a book I have recently read and I immediately thought = Striving for excellence is healthy, gratifying and attainable. However, = I'm frustrated over my health, grateful to be = than psychotic) and have worked my entire life to attain the ability to = waste time... In short... form AND function! *S* Getting my vitamins and valium now, but taking extra= plan the proper route to the medicine cabinet! Bob immediately thought of all you "artists". Striving for excellence = frustrating, neurotic and a waste of time. Comments? from mrmac@tcimet.net Thu Oct 18 13:33:38 2001 f9IIXb405942 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:33:38 - LAA11711 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:33:30 - Subject: Epon as rod coating? Seeing a recent reference somewhere about using lacquer thinner withEpon got me wondering if anyone has experimented with using thinned Epon parts and I'll probably give it a try just to see if I can get itapplied smooth enough and thin enough to look half decent. I'm thinkingof rubbing on a thin coat with fingers (nitrile gloves on) and seeing ifthat would work. All somewhat presuming it has better moistureresistance than varnish, but I haven't looked that up yet - still in the"thinkin' o' dinkin'" stages and just curious. TIA, - best to everyone, mac (Seems to me the string is just sufficiently long enough such that itprecisely and exactly reaches from one end to the other.) from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 18 13:58:52 2001 f9IIwp407590 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:58:51 -0500 Subject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A Barry there is no such phrase as " I Don't know" on internet lists, especially from the regulars who just bullshit their way out.Terry Kling, Barry W. wrote: And further regarding the string.... end.The question simply asked how long it is. Maybe Terry was thinking "howlongto the end from this here place where I'm grabbing it with two fingersgreasy from work on the milling machine that will stun all those dummiesonthe list." Personally I think I know the answer, and it is also the correct answer tomany of the questions on the list. The answer is "don't know." Barry "Zen Boy" Kling -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 12:14 PM Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustL.eduSubject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A I used to live in Northern Queensland in sugar cane country where it's veryhot and wet during the monsoon with a mountain range pretty close to thecoast so there were lots of great winding roads of the type you see in oldJames Bond movie car chases. I had a pretty fast car with lots of gruntandnot much in the way of handling and used Pirelli Winter Compound tiers tokeep it on the tar. They stuck sh!t to a blanket on the road and I doremember getting almost 3 months from a set. These days I get a lotlonger from a set but the tiers I use are like wet choko skins by comparison. Thenagain I drive like I want to make it to the destination. The string question warrants some thought. Is it cotton or nylon, new orused, and expected to be recylicable? Also, is it expected to be heattreated and coated or impregnated before use? Most importantly, can ithaveany knots in it's length? Tony At 11:21 AM 10/18/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Trying to sound like a day in day out contributor to rodmakers, how longwould a set of tires last in hours? how long is a piece of string?Terry Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guide performance and got back 4 responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how I got fishing so much. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize over thread wraps,dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of other things that makethefishing poles we make look good. What we seem to be missing is thatwe are building fishing poles. They are meant to be used. Or perhaps, I'm out to lunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on the scene, the bulk of guys who wrote about them were impressed by their finish and fit. Nomention of how long they might last. And this is only one example of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any idea what brand ofsnakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use my equipment hard. I don't want to spend time in the shop replacing guides and refinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testing could be done toratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them to death. If the fishing to death idea is the only answer, I may never live long enough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, this would seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer became apparent. In mycase,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 18 14:02:52 2001 f9IJ2p408024 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:02:51 - Subject: Re: snake guide wearing out You obviously do not "shoot line". A good fly caster wears out all the guides!Terry Miller, Troy wrote: The only guides I have ever seen to wear out in my 30 years of FF are tiptops on rods. The abrupt change in angle and high friction that resultsseems to be much more destructive than the shallow angles between thesnakes. And the only rods that have had tip wear are those thatconsistently see backing. My king salmon rods and my offshore rod havehadtip tops replaced for that reason. I have never had any guides wear outthat have only seen flyline. Here is a tip: Clean your flyline EVERY time you cast the rod. And sometimes stopduringfishing to clean it, if conditions warrant. Dirty line will destroy bothrod and line much faster. I'm going to plead ignorance on the effects of silk lines, since I havenever fished them. They may act exactly like backing and have a 10X wearfactor compared to PVC. If anyone takes pity on me and feels the need to Troy Miller539 Meadow Creek Dr.Bellville, TX 77418 Please indicate approximate line wt and taper, if known. : )-----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 12:34 PM Subject: snake guide wearing out Snake guides wear out? I've been fly fishing for 25 years and have not hadany guides wear out. Now mind you I fish a good amount but I am one ofthosewierdos that have more fly rods then common sense. So I guess no one rodhashad enough wear to need new guides. And my way of thinking if my snakeguides are wearing out I am going to do one of two things 1. Buy a new rod or make one (any excuse is a good one)2. Stop false casting to much. 1 - 3 false cast instead of 10-20 will extendthe life of those guides. As to making a beautiful rod, if an ugly rod cast fantastic strip it downand give it a make over. Shoot women to it all the time. Adam Vigil from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Thu Oct 18 14:10:44 2001 f9IJAh408698 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:10:43 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:01:15 -0500 Rodmakers Subject: RE: snake guide wearing out Do I shoot line.......? You better just stand back! If you are wearing out guides when shooting line, you need to learn to castproperly, or stop using those bent paper clips. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: snake guide wearing out You obviously do not "shoot line". A good fly caster wears out all theguides!Terry Miller, Troy wrote: The only guides I have ever seen to wear out in my 30 years of FF are tiptops on rods. The abrupt change in angle and high friction that resultsseems to be much more destructive than the shallow angles between thesnakes. And the only rods that have had tip wear are those thatconsistently see backing. My king salmon rods and my offshore rod have had tip tops replaced for that reason. I have never had any guides wear outthat have only seen flyline. Here is a tip: Clean your flyline EVERY time you cast the rod. And sometimes stopduringfishing to clean it, if conditions warrant. Dirty line will destroy bothrod and line much faster. I'm going to plead ignorance on the effects of silk lines, since I havenever fished them. They may act exactly like backing and have a 10X wearfactor compared to PVC. If anyone takes pity on me and feels the need to Troy Miller539 Meadow Creek Dr.Bellville, TX 77418 Please indicate approximate line wt and taper, if known. : )-----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 12:34 PM Subject: snake guide wearing out Snake guides wear out? I've been fly fishing for 25 years and have not hadany guides wear out. Now mind you I fish a good amount but I am one of those wierdos that have more fly rods then common sense. So I guess no one rod has had enough wear to need new guides. And my way of thinking if my snakeguides are wearing out I am going to do one of two things 1. Buy a new rod or make one (any excuse is a good one)2. Stop false casting to much. 1 - 3 false cast instead of 10-20 will extend the life of those guides. As to making a beautiful rod, if an ugly rod cast fantastic strip it downand give it a make over. Shoot women to it all the time. Adam Vigil from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Oct 18 14:14:59 2001 f9IJEw409213 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:14:58 - (authenticated) Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:14:35 -0700 Subject: Re: perfectionism --------------04A79EB7950E9A2E818290F4 "T. Ackland" wrote: I dug this out of a book I have recently read and Iimmediately thought of all you "artists".Striving for excellence is healthy, gratifying andattainable. However, aiming for perfection is frustrating,neurotic and a waste of time.Comments? Terry, My Grandfather had an old saying that has guided me inmany things: "It's better to shoot for a star and hit a stumpThan to shoot for a stump and hit the dirt." I've never made a perfect rod yet. Not even close. ButI keep trying. And they keep getting better and better, Ithink. Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------04A79EB7950E9A2E818290F4 "T. Ackland" wrote: and I immediately thought of all you "artists".Striving for excellence is healthy, gratifying and attainable.However,aiming for perfection is frustrating, neurotic and a waste of time.Comments?Terry, me in many things:"It's better to shoot for a star and hit a stumpThan to shoot for a stump and hit the dirt." better, I think. --Harry Boyd --------------04A79EB7950E9A2E818290F4-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Oct 18 14:16:09 2001 f9IJG8409438 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:16:09 - (authenticated) Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:15:57 -0700 Subject: Re: Epon as rod coating? Mac, Epon is the main ingredient in Flex Coat and U-40 epoxy wrap finishes,but their literature doesn't recommend it as a finish for entire graphiteblanks. Harry Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Seeing a recent reference somewhere about using lacquer thinner withEpon got me wondering if anyone has experimented with using thinned Epon parts and I'll probably give it a try just to see if I can get itapplied smooth enough and thin enough to look half decent. I'm thinkingof rubbing on a thin coat with fingers (nitrile gloves on) and seeing ifthat would work. All somewhat presuming it has better moistureresistance than varnish, but I haven't looked that up yet - still in the"thinkin' o' dinkin'" stages and just curious. TIA, - best to everyone, mac (Seems to me the string is just sufficiently long enough such that itprecisely and exactly reaches from one end to the other.) --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Thu Oct 18 14:19:53 2001 f9IJJr409996 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:19:53 - for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:20:07 -0400 Subject: Snake Guides: Gentlemen, Gentlemen, We are all tool makers and strive to be artisans, some do better thanothers. Guides and snakes do wear out I see this every day in my shop. Wellmake rods are like cars, a lot depends on the use and care of it. My 2cents, Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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 from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Oct 18 14:20:26 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9IJKP410160 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:20:25 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:20:29 -0500 Subject: RE: perfectionism this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. My old grandad had an old saying: "Hey! Whaddya doin?" This explains a lot, for me. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: perfectionism "T. Ackland" wrote: I dug this out of a book I have recently read and I immediately thought ofall you "artists". Striving for excellence is healthy, gratifying and attainable. However,aiming for perfection is frustrating, neurotic and a waste of time. Comments? Terry, My Grandfather had an old saying that has guided me in many things: "It's better to shoot for a star and hit a stump Than to shoot for a stump and hit the dirt." I've never made a perfect rod yet. Not even close. But I keep trying.And they keep getting better and better, I think. Harry -- Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rods http://www.fbcwin.com/ Our me. -----Original Message-----From: Harry rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: immediately thought of all you "artists". Striving for excellence ishealthy, gratifying and attainable. However, aiming for perfection isfrustrating, neurotic and a waste of time. Grandfather had an old saying that has guided me in many things: "It'sbetter to shoot for a star and hit a stump Than to shoot for a stump getting better and better, I think. ------ KlingB@health.missouri.edu Thu Oct 18 14:23:28 2001 Received: from umhs-mail01.missouri.edu (umhs-mail01.health.missouri.edu [161.130.112.185](may be forged)) by wugate.wustl.edu (8.10.0.Beta12/8.10.0.Beta12) with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Oct 200114:23:31 -0500 Message-ID:From: "Kling, Barry W." KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENCalumet sells something for coating graphite rods that I THINK is an eposy. Itcomes in little packages, I assume with a saturated little sponge inside. As Irecall you wipe the rod with it, then put it on a rod turner until it dries. I knowit would be heresy to do this to bamboo, but it would be interesting. Wonderif you could tell the difference from varnish on the finished product? Barry -- Subject: Re: Epon as rod coating? Mac, Epon is the main ingredient in FlexCoat and U-40 epoxy wrap finishes, but their literature doesn't recommend itas a finish for entire graphite blanks. Harry Ralph MacKenzie wrote: Seeing a recent reference somewhere about using lacquer thinner withEpon got me wondering if anyone has experimented with using thinned Epon parts and I'll probably give it a try just to see if I can get itapplied smooth enough and thin enough to look half decent. I'm thinkingof rubbing on a thin coat with fingers (nitrile gloves on) and seeing ifthat would work. All somewhat presuming it has better moistureresistance than varnish, but I haven't looked that up yet - still in the"thinkin' o' dinkin'" stages and just curious. TIA, - best to everyone, mac (Seems to me the string is just sufficiently long enough such that itprecisely and exactly reaches from one end to the other.) --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Thu Oct 18 14:31:25 2001 f9IJVP411581 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:31:25 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:21:26 -0500 ,hexagon@odyssee.net Subject: RE: perfectionism My favorite, and most useful of Grandpa's quotes is: "You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, you can have it good. Picktwo." I've never found this to be incorrect. TAM from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 18 14:45:02 2001 f9IJj1412664 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:45:02 - Subject: Re: snake guide wearing out 3498D10DD986F43D3E30E357" --------------3498D10DD986F43D3E30E357 hard chromed guides on a cane rod, with nylon and epoxy? That'l lastTerryAdam Vigil wrote: Snake guides wear out? I've been fly fishing for 25 years and havenot had any guides wear out. Now mind you I fish a good amount but Iam one of those wierdos that have more fly rods then common sense. SoI guess no one rod has had enough wear to need new guides. And my wayof thinking if my snake guides are wearing out I am going to do one oftwo things 1. Buy a new rod or make one (any excuse is a good one)2.Stop false casting to much. 1 - 3 false cast instead of 10-20 willextend the life of those guides. As to making a beautiful rod, if anugly rod cast fantastic strip it down and give it a make over. Shootwomen to it all the time. Adam Vigil --------------3498D10DD986F43D3E30E357 hard chromed guides on a cane rod, with nylon and epoxy? That'l lastTerryAdam Vigil wrote: Snakeguides wear out? I've been fly fishing for 25 years and have not had anyguides wear out. Now mind you I fish a good amount but I am one of thosewierdos that have more fly rods then common sense. So I guess no one rodhas had enough wear to need new guides. And my way of thinking if my snakeguides are wearing out I am going to do one of two Buy a new rod or make one (any excuse is a goodone)2.Stop false casting to much. 1 - 3 false cast instead of 10-20 will extend to making a beautiful rod, if an ugly rod cast fantastic strip it down Vigil --------------3498D10DD986F43D3E30E357-- from bob@downandacross.com Thu Oct 18 15:00:49 2001 f9IK0l414202 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:00:48 - Subject: RE: Epon as rod coating? I do not know if that would work Mac, but I am trying to use epoxy to make anicer transition from ferrule to blank ala BOb Milward's book. The 5 minutestuff doesn't work very well (too chunky), but the rod wrapping type seemsgreat. I also found that you can sand the 5 minute Devcon somewhat in thelathe and then polish it to clear with Novus #2 polish. When I figure it outbetter, I will repost.Has anyone else figured it all out yet for this application?Thanks, Bob -----Original Message----- from bob@downandacross.com Thu Oct 18 15:00:50 2001 f9IK0n414215 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:00:49 - Subject: RE: perfectionism Someone said this to me a while back, "If practice makes perfect, and no oneis perfect...why practice?"I have been almost embarrassed by the rods I keep myself to fish, but never Bob Someone said this to me a while back, "If practice makes = one is perfect...why practice?" been almost embarrassed by the rods I keep myself to fish, but never by = I sell. (Problem is I never have those around when someone stops by or a = gathering pops up!) Guys at the WNY Gathering the 27th, get ready for = CC de Glue Line. Bob from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Oct 18 15:13:20 2001 f9IKDJ415562 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:13:20 - f9IKDMZ25415 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:13:23 -0500 Subject: Davesrods Will Dave from Davesrods contact me off list. Didnot save your E addy. Have some info for you.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Thu Oct 18 15:20:24 2001 f9IKKI416426 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:20:19 - Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:20:21 +0100 Subject: Re: snake guide wearing out Here's the facts; Hard Chrome Hopkins and Holloway Snake guides on reservoir/stillwaterrods that are used to shoot line and shooting heads if used say once aweek WILL WEAR OUT after three maybe four seasons fishing at the tops. Hard Chrome Hopkins and Holloway Snake guides on River Rods that arefished two to three times a week with short range casting being theorder of the day will still be fishable after 8 yearsplus...............these comments are taken from my own rods with me onthe handle !.......Tight lines.......PAul Adam Vigil wrote: Snake guides wear out? I've been fly fishing for 25 years and have nothad any guides wear out. Now mind you I fish a good amount but I amone of those wierdos that have more fly rods then common sense. So Iguess no one rod has had enough wear to need new guides. And my way ofthinking if my snake guides are wearing out I am going to do one oftwo things 1. Buy a new rod or make one (any excuse is a good one)2. Stop false casting to much. 1 - 3 false cast instead of 10-20 willextend the life of those guides. As to making a beautiful rod, if an ugly rod cast fantastic strip itdown and give it a make over. Shoot women to it all the time. Adam Vigil from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Oct 18 15:24:12 2001 f9IKOB417036 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:24:11 - (authenticated) Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:23:59 -0700 Subject: Re: cosmetics --------------99124F3A3F2CF19A67595EBC Tim, I'd advise you to think long and hard about this beforeconsenting. I made the mistake of selling rods too soon.Remember that you have to stand behind what you sell, andthat your reputation as a rodmaker is influenced by everyrod you make. I still have the first rod I made, but Ireally wish I still had #'s 2-12 as well. Or at least Iwish they weren't out there floating around with mysignatures on them. Numbers two and three were sold forabout what they cost me in components. Number four wasgiven away. Number five I still have. Number 6 and 7 weresold for a little of nothing. Numbers 8 and 9 were givenaway. Can't remember #'s 10-12 off the top of my head. ButI really, really wish I had not put my name on a single rodtill I had at least a dozen under my belt. When you look at my first one, and then my most recent,at SRG next week, I think you will be able to see why... I am not in any way stumping for business. In fact, I'mpretty well tied up till about next March. But do yourfriend a favor. If he is, as you say "hell-bent to buy,"recommend one of the fine rodmakers on this list with whomyou have developed a relationship. Trust me, down the roadyou will be glad you did. Either that, or just build him arod and give it to him. Harry Tim Wilhelm wrote: Your comments are timely considering what happened to melast night. At our monthly TU meeting, of which I ampresident, one of the members came to me and basicallysaid he was hell bent to buy one of my rods. Now keep inmind that he has seen my first rod and that it is the onlyrod that I currently have completed. Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------99124F3A3F2CF19A67595EBC Tim, Remember that you have to stand behind what you sell, and that yourreputation Or at least I wish they weren't out there floating around with my signatures a single rod till I had at least a dozen under my belt. recent,at SRG next week, I think you will be able to see why... one of the fine rodmakers on this list with whom you have developed a just build him a rod and give it to him. Tim Wilhelm wrote:Your commentsare TU meeting, of which I am president, one of the members came to me and mind that he has seen my first rod and that it is the only rod that I currentlyhave completed.Harry Boyd --------------99124F3A3F2CF19A67595EBC-- from rextutor@about.com Thu Oct 18 15:39:40 2001 f9IKdd418320 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:39:39 - (NPlex 5.5.029) "'fbcwin@3g.quik.com'", hexagon@odyssee.netSubject: perfectionism granpas words I think your grandpa was sippingsomethin.Make mine fast and good. Sign up fora free About Email account at http://About.com from dannyt@frisurf.no Thu Oct 18 15:41:22 2001 f9IKfG418647 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:41:18 - for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:41:06+0200 (MET DST)User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Epon as rod coating? Hi Bob, I've been using what we here call standard 24h epoxy (Aralidit) tomake the trasition from cane to ferrule. It gets hard so it can be sandedand polished, the five minute stuff I've never been able to cure hard..... danny I do not know if that would work Mac, but I am trying to use epoxy to makeanicer transition from ferrule to blank ala BOb Milward's book. from Vtbamboo@cs.com Thu Oct 18 15:59:24 2001 f9IKxN420024 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:59:23 - for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:59:03 - Subject: Measuring strips/Silly Question? When I set my forms & plane strips I deduct .003 from the setting (Or .006 total on the rod). After glue up & sanding, my rods measure prettyaccurately with my intended taper. However every book i've read says to tape the strips together & measure the rod to compare actual measurements with theintended taper before glue up. Now here's the question, am I building undersize rods? This is probably a silly question but am I missing something obvious? When I set my forms& plane strips I deduct .003 from the setting (Or .006 total on the rod).After glue up & sanding, my rods measure pretty accurately with myintended taper. However every book i've read says to tape the stripstogether & measure the rod to compare actual measurements with theintended taper before glue up. Now here's the question, am I buildingundersize rods? This is probably a silly question but am I missing somethingobvious? from Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com Thu Oct 18 16:19:38 2001 f9ILJb421596 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:19:37 - 0400 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:10:31 -0400 id ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:07:16 -0400 Subject: RE: snake guide wearing out I haven't noticed guide wear...though I don't use just one rod. I have aLoomis 8-wt that I use a lot with a Sci-anglers clear striper line (thestuff can cut your hand on a good fish) and I don't see any wear after 5years...the stuff shoots a mile....really incredible. I personally think checking out a rod used for fighting fish that do longruns like steelhead would be a real test...just think how much pressure andstress is being exerted.I would ask a good salmon fishing/steelhead or saltwater guide what hisexperiences have been. I use 2 guides in the salmon river area and they userunning line (THAT cuts up fingers no problem) when chucking and ducking. Inthe summer they both use various fly lines on the flats in Cape Cod forstripers and blues (real casting, not chucking and ducking). They both useOrvis plastic rods and I don't think they have these problems (I could bewrong though). They fish almost every day. They also catch a lot of fish upto 40 pounds. If you want to contact one of them, email me offlist. Ifindeed whatever Orvis (or Loomis) uses holds up, the next question would bewhat do they buy... Andy p.s. I love silk lines but here's a hint...don't lawn cast them a lot...theyget gritty like sandpaper and together with their thin diameter no doubtthat will cause wear!- from grnmtrods@outdrs.net Thu Oct 18 17:38:44 2001 f9IMch424803 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:38:43 - Subject: measuring strips vt bamboo vtbamboo, Have you tried casting one of your rods? Does it cast all right? If so, youmeasured it right. You are consistent . Another words ,if you measured wrong ,it was done atevery station. You may have made a rod that will cast a 4 wt instead of a 5wt. Good luck,Jim/Vermont from grnmtrods@outdrs.net Thu Oct 18 17:44:47 2001 f9IMil425179 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:44:47 - Subject: Harry--cosmetics Harry, How right you are!!!! Those rods sure look good when you first make them but ------looking back,they just don't cut it. In general, that is the way life goes. Jim/Vermont from iank@ts.co.nz Thu Oct 18 17:52:45 2001 f9IMqh425621 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:52:44 - by sage.ts.co.nz (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f9IMvbS16664; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:57:37 +1300 using -f "Rodmakers Info" Subject: Re: Snake Guides: Just a minor comment on wear of snake guides. I had advise several yearsago when I was acquiring some fittings of a major local rod manufacturer who considers me somewhat of an eccentric , and sells mereel seats etc at their bulk purchase rates. We were talking about guides and when I mentioned that I made my own from paino wire theproduction manager , with some 40 years experience in producing many 1000's of fly rods a year , said they used to do that manyyears ago. He said they were find for small stream fishing , but hopeless for the Taupo area where there is a lot of volcanic dust in thewater. He said that steel guides did not last 12 months in that location. He also mentioned they used a special hardened guide for rods #7and above as they were likely to be used in Taupo and on the volcanic plateau. Don Anderson has also mentioned that there can be a similar problem withgllacial dust in his area. I guess these sorts of features can have a lot of affect on the life of guides Ian Gentlemen, Gentlemen, We are all tool makers and strive to be artisans, some do better thanothers. Guides and snakes do wear out I see this every day in my shop. Wellmake rods are like cars, a lot depends on the use and care of it. My 2cents, Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker -- Tasman Solutions Ltd. Real People in Cyber Space http://www.ts.co.nz from jojo@ipa.net Thu Oct 18 18:14:49 2001 Received: from f9INEm426430 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 From: "Jojo DeLancier" Subject: Re: perfectionism Date: Thu, jojo@ipa.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This is a multi-part quoted-printable As a reformed perfectionist, I can agree with this. M-D healthy, gratifying and attainable. = However, aiming for perfection is attainable. However, aiming for perfection is frustrating, neurotic = and ------ From: "Bill Taylor" bamboo@pa.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This second what Harry said. I just got finished repossessing a rod = that I hadgiven to a good friend of mine who manages a local fly shop. = I had given itto him a couple years ago as a gift and it was like the = fourth rod I hadmade. I just gave him his replacement a beautiful = (well at least I think sonow who knows in 5 more years) 7'6" 4# built = on a Payne 100. Already soldtwo rods off this one. I guess what I'm = trying to say is that I didn't knowhow bad my early rods were till I = got some more under my belt. I just wishthat I wouldn't have put my = daggone name on them. Sorry if this post isnot completely coherent, I = just had 4 teeth removed today and am heavily printable finished repossessing a rod that I had given to a good friend of mine = To doped up to run the saweiss@flash.net Thu Oct 18 19:01:04 2001 Received: from pimout1- f9J013427783 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:01:03 -0400 Message- Subject: Re:guide wear Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:01:02 -0600 Organization: Prodigy owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Don, Some of the rate ofwear will vary with the amount of abrasive material picked up on the lines.Some people fish in silty water, others may allow their lines to fall on themud and then pull the lines through the guides. Lots of practice casting ondirt or grass will also pick up dust on the lines. I don't mean that you dothese things, but I do some of all of them at times. Steve Or further, does anyone have any idea what testing could be done to ratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them to death. If the fishing to death idea is the only answer, I may never live long enough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, this would seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer became apparent. In my case,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don from if6were9@bellsouth.net Thu Oct 18 19:18:00 2001 f9J0Hx428335 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:17:59 - Subject: Re: cosmetics Most builders I know (myself included) are their own worst critic. Ibuild a lot of plastic rods and folks rave about how fine they look, butall I see are the things I could have done better. In 15 years of rodbuilding I have yet to build a "perfect" piece, but I have managed toget past the ten footer class. That is how the guy that taught me tobuild described my first solo effort, " from ten feet away, it don'tlook half bad." I've still got that first rod hanging over my bench asa reminder of what not to do.Pat from mschaffer@mindspring.com Thu Oct 18 19:35:55 2001 f9J0Zs429024 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:35:54 - Subject: Non-FF but worth reading--Mike This was sent to me by a friend and I just thought it was worth passing =on to other friends.Mike Subject: Roman Newspaper editorial Romanian Newspaper EditorialDate: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:22:41 -0400When you think the United States isn't well thought of all over the =world,read this editorial from a Romanian Newspaper. I guess for those who =don'thave the heritage of freedom that we enjoy it is difficult to =understand. from ROMANIA: RECOGNITION (AND ENVY) OF THE AMERICANETHOS AND =C9LAN!!Why are Americans so united? They don't resemble oneanother even if you paint them! They speak all thelanguages of the world and form an astonishing mixture of civilizations.Some of them are nearly extinct, others are incompatible with one =another,and in matters of religious beliefs, not even God can count how many =theyare. Still, the American tragedy turned three hundred million people =into ahand put on the heart.Nobody rushed to accuse the White House, the army, thesecret services that they are only a bunch of losers.Nobody rushed to empty their bank accounts. Nobodyrushed on the streets nearby to gape about. The Americans volunteered =todonate blood and to give a helping hand. After the first moments of =panic,they raised the flag on the smoking ruins, putting on T-shirts, caps andties in the colors of the national flag. They placed flags on buildings =andcars as if in every place and on every car a minister or the president =waspassing. On every occasion they started singing their traditional song:"God Bless America"!Silent as a rock, I watched the charity concert broadcast on Saturday =once,twice, three times, on different TV channels. There were Clint =Eastwood,Willie Nelson, Robert de Niro, Julia Roberts, Cassius Clay, Jack =Nicholson,Bruce Springsteen, Silvester Stalone, James Wood, and many others whom =nofilm or producers could ever bring together. The American's solidarityspirit turned them into a choir. Actually, choir is not the word. What =youcould hear was the heavy artillery of the American soul. What neitherGeorge W. Bush, nor Bill Clinton, nor Colin Powell could say without =facingthe risk of stumbling over words and sounds, was being heard in a great =andunmistakable way in this charity concert.I don't know how it happened that all this obsessive singingof America didn't sound croaky, nationalist, orostentatious! It made you green with envy because youweren't able to sing for your country without running therisk of being considered chauvinist, ridiculous, orsuspected of who-knows-what mean interests.I watched the live broadcast and the rerun of its rerun for hours =listeningto the story of the guy who went down one hundred floors with a woman in =awheelchair without knowing who she was, or of the Californian hockey =player,who fought with the terrorists and prevented the plane from hitting a =targetthat would have killed other hundreds or thousands of people. How on =earthwere they able to bow before a fellow human? Imperceptibly, with every =wordand musical note, the memory of some turned into a modern myth of tragicheroes. And with every phone call, millions and millions of dollars were =putin a collection aimed at rewarding not a man or a family, but a spirit =whichnothing can buy.What on earth can unite the Americans in such a way? Their land? Theirgalloping history? Their economic power? Money? I tried for hours to =findan answer, humming songs and murmuring phrases which risk of sounding =likecommon places. I thought things over, but I reached only one =conclusion.Only freedom can work such miracles! This was sent to me by a friend and I = it was worth passing on to other friends.Mike----- Original Message ----- Subject: Roman Newspaper editorial 2001 10:22:41 -0400When you think the United States isn't well = that we enjoy it is difficult to understand. from ROMANIA: = ENVY) OF THE AMERICANETHOS AND =C9LAN!!Why are Americansso = civilizations.Some of them are nearly extinct, others are = one another,and in matters of religious beliefs, not even God can = = people into ahand put on the heart.Nobody rushed to accuse the = blood and to give a helping hand. After the first moments of = raised the flag on the smoking ruins, putting on T-shirts, caps = andcars as if in every place and on every car a minister or the = song:"God Bless America"!Silent as a rock, I watched the charity = Julia Roberts, Cassius Clay, Jack Nicholson,Bruce Springsteen, = Stalone, James Wood, and many others whom nofilm or producers could= Bill Clinton, nor Colin Powell could say without facingthe risk of = over words and sounds, was being heard in a great andunmistakable = this charity concert.I don't know how it happened that all this = able to sing for your country without running therisk of being = chauvinist, ridiculous, orsuspected of who-knows-what mean = watched the live broadcast and the rerun of its rerun for hours = awheelchair without knowing who she was, or of the Californian = player,who fought with the terrorists and prevented the plane from = targetthat would have killed other hundreds or thousands of = Imperceptibly, with every wordand musical note, the memory of some = into a modern myth of tragicheroes. And with every phone call, = millions of dollars were putin a collection aimed at rewarding not a = a family, but a spirit whichnothing can buy.What on earth can = findan answer, humming songs and murmuring phrases which risk of = conclusion.Only freedom can work suchmiracles! from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Oct 18 20:10:04 2001 f9J1A4429720 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:10:04 - ([209.178.134.213] helo=g2t8c9) id 15uOAp-0006ON-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:10:08 -0700 Subject: perfect fly rods Perfect fly rods? I see them all the time. Just because many of us do =not care about perfection nor have reached the level of certain makers =means there are not guys out there doing it. I see a lot of "Perfection" on this list: Perfect gentlemen, perfect =advice and some perfect people only a mother could love. Adam Vigil Now I will go outside and cast like a madman so I can wear out some = snake guides so I can be a "good fly fisherman!" Perfect fly rods? I see them all the = because many of us do not care about perfection nor have reached the = certain makers means there are not guys out there doing it. I see a lot of "Perfection" on this = love. Adam Vigil Now I will go outside and cast like a = fisherman!" from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 20:25:16 2001 f9J1PF400178 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:25:15 - Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:25:07 -0700 Subject: Re: heat gun oven insulation question FILETIME=[E33E7D90:01C1583C] Well, after I have finally come to the conclusion that I need to get =more heat through my oven. The temperature drop is huge- up to 100 F. No=wonder my cane never seems to cure. The oven is a gas furnace exhaust =flue (double wall pipe) heated with a good heat gun, but I need to =insulate it. Does anyone have any recommendations regarding an =insulation I could wrap around it? I am hoping to find something that is =easy to obtain- like at Wal-Mart. I am open to advice. Jeff Schaeffer Well, after I have finally come to the = that I need to get more heat through my oven. The temperature drop is = to 100 F. No wonder my cane never seems to cure. The oven is a gas = insulate it. Does anyone have any recommendations regarding an = could wrap around it? I am hoping to find something that is easy to = at Wal-Mart. I am open to advice. Jeff =Schaeffer from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 18 20:27:05 2001 f9J1R3400388 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:27:03 -0500 Subject: String's the thing It never occurred to me at the time but you _can_ measure how long a piece of string is under the right set of circumstances. I guess if the string is in a ball or layed out there may be no limit to it's length but if it's strung between two points there will come a length at which the string will not support it's own weight.That is actually what a knot in maritime use is. It's the length of a piece of cord strung between two points 1 land mile apart with the dip of the string due to gravity but stretched almost to breaking point while made sufficiently strong not to break so when the sag is taken into account it measured a pre determined one nautical mile.A nautical mile is 1/60th of a degree (one minute) of a great circle of the earth or 6,075'. A land mile is 1.15 nautical miles. Once the distance of the string was determined a knot (another one, same name different knot) was placed every 25' 4" or 1/240th of a nautical mile. The number of knots paid out from the stern of a (hopefully moving) boat in 15 seconds gave the knots per hr.That's why speed is rated in knots (distance of a piece of string traveled between two imagined points one land mile apart held at either end with the gravitational sag of the string taken into account) while distance is shown as miles on charts but could be shown as knots if you want, it just becomes more complicated. In the usual way of things there is a reason for the idea in the beginning, but nobody can remember why it continues to be done. ALSO, it is proper if you wish to say knots per hr as it's a linear measurement related to time even though people delight in saying it's wrong. Anybody wanting to argue the point can take it up with James Cook or Horatio Nelson who mention knots per hr in their log books. Of course if they had braided kevlar back then this would have a different meaning wouldn't it? Too bad really, a knot may have been almost a statute mile.Amazing stuff string. Thankyou Terry. Tony At 07:31 PM 10/18/01 -0400, Larry Blan wrote: How, praytell, do you expect me to answer this without knowing if the stringis cabled, or braided, and how many strands it contains??? Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 1:14 PM Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustL.eduSubject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A I used to live in Northern Queensland in sugar cane country whereit's veryhot and wet during the monsoon with a mountain range pretty close tothecoast so there were lots of great winding roads of the type yousee in oldJames Bond movie car chases. I had a pretty fast car with lots ofgrunt andnot much in the way of handling and used Pirelli Winter Compound tiers tokeep it on the tar. They stuck sh!t to a blanket on the road and I doremember getting almost 3 months from a set. These days I get alot longer from a set but the tiers I use are like wet choko skins bycomparison. Thenagain I drive like I want to make it to the destination. The string question warrants some thought. Is it cotton or nylon, new orused, and expected to be recylicable? Also, is it expected to be heattreated and coated or impregnated before use? Most importantly,can it haveany knots in it's length? Tony At 11:21 AM 10/18/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Trying to sound like a day in day out contributor to rodmakers, how long would a set of tires last in hours? how long is a piece of string?Terry Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guide performance and got back 4 responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how I got fishing somuch. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize over thread wraps,dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of other things that make the fishing poles we make look good. What we seem to be missing is that we are building fishing poles. They are meant to be used. Or perhaps, I'm out to lunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on the scene, the bulk of guys who wrote about them were impressed by their finish and fit. No mention of how long they might last. And this is only one example of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any idea what brand ofsnakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use my equipment hard. I don't want to spend time in the shop replacing guides and refinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testing could be done to rate the longevity of guides other than fishing them to death. If the fishing to death idea is the only answer, I may never live long enough to figure it out. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, this would seem formostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer became apparent. In my case, this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from JNL123141@msn.com Thu Oct 18 20:27:11 2001 f9J1RA400393 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:27:10 - Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:27:06 -0700 "Harry Boyd" , Subject: Re: perfectionism FILETIME=[2A2F3230:01C1583D] Does that apply to women? ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: perfectionism My favorite, and most useful of Grandpa's quotes is: "You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, you can have it good. Picktwo." I've never found this to be incorrect. TAM Does thatappl= 'fbcwin@3g.quik.=com'; hexagon@odyssee.net Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sub= most =useful of Grandpa's quotes is:"You can have it fast, you can have= TAM from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 20:29:39 2001 f9J1Tc400801 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:29:38 - 18 Oct 2001 18:29:42 PDT Subject: Re: heat gun oven insulation question i used high temp pipe insulation. buy it from localheating -a/c contractor or i bought mine fromwholesaler. buy it a little small and strip outinterior a bit to make a tite fit. the stuff is easyto work with and is temp rated over 400*f. so will notdegrade with heat or put off fumes or melt. house holdinsulation is not rated over 200* i found out and canmake a mess when the temp goes up. timothy --- Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Well, after I have finally come to the conclusionthat I need to get more heat through my oven. Thetemperature drop is huge- up to 100 F. No wonder mycane never seems to cure. The oven is a gas furnaceexhaust flue (double wall pipe) heated with a goodheat gun, but I need to insulate it. Does anyonehave any recommendations regarding an insulation Icould wrap around it? I am hoping to find somethingthat is easy to obtain- like at Wal-Mart. I am open to advice. Jeff Schaeffer ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 18 20:37:26 2001 f9J1bP401350 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:37:25 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: heat gun oven insulation question Jeff,Go to Walmart of the local hardware store and buy wrap insulation = foot roll to re-do my oven with and I have PLENTY left over! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Subject: Re: heat gun oven insulation question Well, after I have finally come to the conclusion that I need to get =more heat through my oven. The temperature drop is huge- up to 100 F. No=wonder my cane never seems to cure. The oven is a gas furnace exhaust =flue (double wall pipe) heated with a good heat gun, but I need to =insulate it. Does anyone have any recommendations regarding an =insulation I could wrap around it? I am hoping to find something that is =easy to obtain- like at Wal-Mart. I am open to advice. Jeff Schaeffer Jeff, over! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Schaeffer Sent: Saturday, October 18, = PMSubject: Re: heat gun oven = question Well, after I have finally come to = that I need to get more heat through my oven. The temperature drop is = to 100 F. No wonder my cane never seems to cure. The oven is a gas = to insulate it. Does anyone have any recommendations regarding an = could wrap around it? I am hoping to find something that is easy to = like at Wal-Mart. I am open to advice. Schaeffer from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 18 20:37:34 2001 f9J1bX401357 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:37:33 - , "Harry Boyd" , Subject: Re: perfectionism There was a Kiwi girl who found her way to the list once a couple of years back some may remember, can't remember her name but she may have beenat least one of these three but no more than two I'd say. She certainly had a limited vocabulary though judging by the way she requested info on getting off the list again [:-)] Tony At 09:27 PM 10/18/01 -0400, John Long wrote: Does that apply to women? ----- Original Message -----From: Miller, TroySent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 3:34 PM hexagon@odyssee.netCc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: perfectionism My favorite, and most useful of Grandpa's quotes is: "You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, you can have it good. Picktwo." I've never found this to be incorrect. TAM /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from shane_person@telus.net Thu Oct 18 20:56:31 2001 f9J1uU402355 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:56:31 - Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:56:29 -0600 Subject: Re: perfectionism The problem, as I see it is this: you do something that finally meetsyour standard of excellence and along comes someone else with somethingthat is just a little more excellent.Guess what happens to your standard of excellence? "T. Ackland" wrote: Hi pals,I dug this out of a book I have recently read and I immediatelythought of all you "artists".Striving for excellence is healthy, gratifying and attainable.However, aiming for perfection is frustrating, neurotic and a waste oftime.Comments?Terry from martinrjensen@home.com Thu Oct 18 21:47:32 2001 f9J2lV403527 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:47:31 - femail48.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:47:31 -0700 , ,"'Harry Boyd'" , Subject: RE: perfectionism I remember her! That was pretty funny. She was just a little bit upsetat having something like 1000 messages in her inbox as I recall... Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- KlingB@health.missouri.edu; Harry Boyd; hexagon@odyssee.net Subject: Re: perfectionism There was a Kiwi girl who found her way to the list once a couple ofyears back some may remember, can't remember her name but she may have beenat least one of these three but no more than two I'd say. She certainly hada limited vocabulary though judging by the way she requested info ongetting off the list again [:-)] Tony At 09:27 PM 10/18/01 -0400, John Long wrote: Does that apply to women? ----- Original Message -----From: Miller, TroySent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 3:34 PM hexagon@odyssee.netCc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: perfectionism My favorite, and most useful of Grandpa's quotes is: "You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, you can have it good. Pick two." I've never found this to be incorrect. TAM /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 18 22:01:22 2001 f9J31L403983 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:01:21 - , ,"'Harry Boyd'" , Subject: RE: perfectionism What I couldn't understand is why that would upset her, I mean she seemed the type to have about that many phone calls a night especially with that amazing grasp of the vulgar vernacular.... I sort of remember somebody musing she may even have been a convent girl?????whoops [;-)] Tony At 07:46 PM 10/18/01 -0700, Martin Jensen wrote: I remember her! That was pretty funny. She was just a little bit upsetat having something like 1000 messages in her inbox as I recall... Martin Jensen /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from martinrjensen@home.com Thu Oct 18 22:03:33 2001 f9J33W404214 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:03:32 - femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:03:32 -0700 , ,"'Harry Boyd'" , Subject: RE: perfectionism Yea, for a while there, I thought I might have worked with her when Iworked in the shipyards.. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com; KlingB@health.missouri.edu; 'Harry Boyd';hexagon@odyssee.net Subject: RE: perfectionism What I couldn't understand is why that would upset her, I mean sheseemed the type to have about that many phone calls a night especially withthat amazing grasp of the vulgar vernacular.... I sort of remember somebody musing she may even have been a convent girl?????whoops [;-)] Tony At 07:46 PM 10/18/01 -0700, Martin Jensen wrote: I remember her! That was pretty funny. She was just a little bit upset at having something like 1000 messages in her inbox as I recall... Martin Jensen /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from bob@downandacross.com Thu Oct 18 22:15:28 2001 f9J3FQ404822 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:15:27 - Oct 2001 23:16:12 -0400 Subject: Intermediates using Paul's advice Wow, Paul. Did full intermediates on the Hardy taper I built this summer andnever finished out. It is so easy your way, I cannot believe it. Took about40 minutes to an hour. The butt section took about 15 of it. So easy. Now Ihope I don;t mess up when I cut off the in between wraps.Thanks, Bob Maulucci218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716- 867-0523 cellularhttp://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com from lblove@omniglobal.net Thu Oct 18 22:20:19 2001 f9J3KJ405212 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:20:19 - Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com, KlingB@health.missouri.edu,"'Harry Boyd'" , hexagon@odyssee.net Subject: RE: perfectionism her name was josieand it was 3011 emails...what the f*&k, im tired of everyones f^&kingmessages in my in box the fond memorieslaterBrad *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/18/01 at 8:02 PM Martin Jensen wrote: Yea, for a while there, I thought I might have worked with her when Iworked in the shipyards.. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 8:06 PM Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com; KlingB@health.missouri.edu; 'Harry Boyd';hexagon@odyssee.netCc: 'RodmakersPost'Subject: RE: perfectionism What I couldn't understand is why that would upset her, I mean sheseemed the type to have about that many phone calls a night especially withthat amazing grasp of the vulgar vernacular.... I sort of remember somebody musing she may even have been a convent girl?????whoops [;-)] Tony At 07:46 PM 10/18/01 -0700, Martin Jensen wrote: I remember her! That was pretty funny. She was just a little bit upset at having something like 1000 messages in her inbox as I recall... from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 18 22:33:55 2001 f9J3Xr405665 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:33:53 -0500 rodmakers@mail.wustL.edu Subject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A Don,I've noticed you do go through a serious number of guides. Does anybody know how titanium wears? It's pretty light so may not be bad as guides, though maybe not snakes, not much in the way of looks I admit. Tony In a similar vein, I asked if there was anyone had some experience testing guides. If I didn't want to know, I wouldn't asked. Seems like some folkshave come up with some. Certainly, some folks may be thinking about thesubject and that should advance the building of bamboo fishing rods - notsure what it might do to the wall hanger market.And I will be contacting Snake Guide and see if they have done some testingor could point me the way to some ideas. regards, Don At 07:16 AM 10/18/01 -0700, timothy troester wrote: snakebrand guides are suppose to be harder and lastalot longer. the maker has the data. call him up andask him. here is the web page.http://www.snakeguides.com/ if i want to make wallhangers what's it to you and why is it a concern toanyone? timothy --- Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guideperformance and got back 4responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how Igot fishing so much. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize overthread wraps, dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of otherthings that make thefishing poles we make look good. What we seem to bemissing is that we arebuilding fishing poles. They are meant to be used.Or perhaps, I'm out tolunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on thescene, the bulk of guyswho wrote about them were impressed by their finishand fit. No mention ofhow long they might last. And this is only oneexample of the type ofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any ideawhat brand of snakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use myequipment hard. I don'twant to spend time in the shop replacing guides andrefinishing a rod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testingcould be done to ratethe longevity of guides other than fishing them todeath. If the fishing todeath idea is the only answer, I may never live longenough to figure itout. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, thiswould seem for mostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer becameapparent. In my case,this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Oct 19 02:26:35 2001 f9J7QX409838 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 02:26:34 -0500 Subject: Re: String's the thing Robert,shiver me timbers you're right. I should have known I was setting myself up At 09:30 PM 10/18/01 -0700, you wrote: Shame on you Tony. You know better than that. It's the other way around.Astatute mile is only 5,280';^). -- Robert A nautical mile is 1/60th of a degree (one minute) of a great circle of the earth or 6,075'. A land mile is 1.15 nautical miles. /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from caneman@clnk.com Fri Oct 19 02:45:36 2001 f9J7jZ410272 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 02:45:35 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) ,, ,, "'Harry Boyd'" , Subject: Re: perfectionism lmao... that must have been back in my stroke days when I was offlist for acouple of years. Sounds like my second wife!!! ----- Original Message ----- ;; ; "'HarryBoyd'" ; Subject: RE: perfectionism her name was josieand it was 3011 emails...what the f*&k, im tired of everyones f^&kingmessages in my in box the fond memorieslaterBrad *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/18/01 at 8:02 PM Martin Jensen wrote: Yea, for a while there, I thought I might have worked with her when Iworked in the shipyards.. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 8:06 PM Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com; KlingB@health.missouri.edu; 'Harry Boyd';hexagon@odyssee.netCc: 'RodmakersPost'Subject: RE: perfectionism What I couldn't understand is why that would upset her, I mean sheseemedthe type to have about that many phone calls a night especially withthatamazing grasp of the vulgar vernacular.... I sort of remember somebodymusing she may even have been a convent girl?????whoops [;-)] Tony At 07:46 PM 10/18/01 -0700, Martin Jensen wrote: I remember her! That was pretty funny. She was just a little bit upsetat having something like 1000 messages in her inbox as I recall... from geert.poorteman@undp.org Fri Oct 19 04:42:40 2001 f9J9gd411574 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 04:42:39 -0500 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 05:42:38 -0400 Subject: carp rod MKIV Dear all,Now I know all of you are fly fisher men, and I do my share whenever i can,butbeing a belgian (but living in Africa), I have different fishing. I used to fish a carp rod for carp of course, but also for catfish here in the lake (again, notrout around here, the nearest being in Kenya). Is there someone in britainwhocan give me the specs for a MKIV carp rod, or another one if no MKIV isavailable Regards,Geert Poorteman from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Oct 19 05:36:09 2001 f9JAa7412313 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 05:36:07 -0500 , ,, ,"'Harry Boyd'" , Subject: Re: perfectionism Mate, you have no idea [:-)] Tony At 02:41 AM 10/19/01 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote: lmao... that must have been back in my stroke days when I was offlist for acouple of years. Sounds like my second wife!!! ----- Original Message -----From: "Brad Love" ;; ; "'HarryBoyd'" ; Cc: "'RodmakersPost'" Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 10:18 PMSubject: RE: perfectionism her name was josieand it was 3011 emails...what the f*&k, im tired of everyones f^&kingmessages in my in box the fond memorieslaterBrad *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/18/01 at 8:02 PM Martin Jensen wrote: Yea, for a while there, I thought I might have worked with her when Iworked in the shipyards.. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 8:06 PM Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com; KlingB@health.missouri.edu; 'HarryBoyd';hexagon@odyssee.netCc: 'RodmakersPost'Subject: RE: perfectionism What I couldn't understand is why that would upset her, I mean sheseemedthe type to have about that many phone calls a night especially withthatamazing grasp of the vulgar vernacular.... I sort of remembersomebodymusing she may even have been a convent girl?????whoops [;-)] Tony At 07:46 PM 10/18/01 -0700, Martin Jensen wrote: I remember her! That was pretty funny. She was just a little bit upsetat having something like 1000 messages in her inbox as I recall... /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from Vtbamboo@cs.com Fri Oct 19 06:26:26 2001 f9JBQQ412959 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:26:26 -0500 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:26:26 -0400 Subject: Measuring strips/ Missed point? Thanks for the replies to my question, but I still not clear. I'll rephrase. I don't have any problems with accuracy, or adjusting the strips to allow for glue. In fact for me the building of the blank (5 rods so far) has been the easiest part of rodmaking, I don't mean any arrogance here, I just feel very comfortable with this aspect. So far I've been recreating rods I have access to & can measure myself. I have adjusted my forms to alow for gluethickness, resulting in rods which measure very closely to the sample rods I'm copying. I assume this is correct. I now want to make some rods using printed/published tapers. None of the books mention undercutting strips.Now the questions:1. Is it not mentioned because its obvious?2. Is it allowed for in the tapers (I.E. is something deducted before publishing)3. Am I thickheaded.This may seem a moot point but I want to build the rods the authorsintended, not the rods that are the result of unintended, unneccesary fiddling. Thanks Vinnie Thanks for the repliesto my question, but I still not clear. I'll rephrase. I don't have any problemswith accuracy, or adjusting the strips to allow for glue. In fact for me thebuilding of the blank (5 rods so far) has been the easiest part of rodmaking, Idon't mean any arrogance here, I just feel very comfortable with this aspect.So far I've been recreating rods I have access to & can measure myself.I have adjusted my forms to alow for glue thickness, resulting in rods whichmeasure very closely to the sample rods I'm copying. I assume this iscorrect. I now want to make some rods using printed/published tapers. Noneof the books mention undercutting strips. Now the questions: This may seem a moot point but I want to build the rods the authorsintended, not the rods that are the result of unintended, unneccesaryfiddling. Thanks for all the help, from dpeaston@wzrd.com Fri Oct 19 07:07:58 2001 f9JC7w413748 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:07:58 -0500 "'RODMAKERS'" Subject: Re: Burnt silk Mike, Both silk and cotton leave a fluffy ash. Silk smells like burned hair andcotton smells a bit like -- burned cotton. -Doug At 10:47 AM 10/16/01 +0800, Roberts, Michael wrote: Hi all,I know that you can diferentiate between nylon and silk thread bythe way they respond to being burnt. Does anyone know what cotton does? TIAMike from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Fri Oct 19 07:10:52 2001 f9JCAp413974 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:10:51 -0500 Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:10:55 +0200 ,, ,, "'Harry Boyd'" , Subject: Re: perfectionism f9JCAq413975 Brad, as I remember Josie it would have been like this: what the f*&k, im f*&king tired of everyones f^&kingmessages in my f*&king in box Ah yes, such sweet memories of a loving soul....... regards, carsten ----- Original Message ----- ; ;; "'Harry Boyd'" ; Subject: RE: perfectionism her name was josieand it was 3011 emails...what the f*&k, im tired of everyones f^&kingmessages in my in box the fond memorieslaterBrad *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/18/01 at 8:02 PM Martin Jensen wrote: Yea, for a while there, I thought I might have worked with her when Iworked in the shipyards.. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 8:06 PM Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com; KlingB@health.missouri.edu; 'Harry Boyd';hexagon@odyssee.netCc: 'RodmakersPost'Subject: RE: perfectionism What I couldn't understand is why that would upset her, I mean sheseemed the type to have about that many phone calls a night especially withthat amazing grasp of the vulgar vernacular.... I sort of remember somebody musing she may even have been a convent girl?????whoops [;-)] Tony At 07:46 PM 10/18/01 -0700, Martin Jensen wrote: I remember her! That was pretty funny. She was just a little bit upset at having something like 1000 messages in her inbox as I recall... from channer@frontier.net Fri Oct 19 07:16:31 2001 f9JCGU414314 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:16:31 -0500 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:20:02 -0600 Subject: Re: Measuring strips/ Missed point? Vinnie;It depends on where the taper came from in the first place. It is safeto assume that most of them were taken from existing rods, tho there area very few that are the actual numbers the milling machine were set to.I suppose one should allow for glue thickness when using a taper from ameasured rod, altho I never do, I think the little extra the rod growslets it cast a modern line better. Unless it is a newer Leonard, T&T,Winston or Orvis taper, all the old rods were designed for silk, whenthe new pvc lines came out, tapers were adjusted to handle the more airrestant lines. I think it's one of the things I don't need to fretabout, if the finished rods casts well, then that's all that counts, Idon't claim to make exact copies of classics anyway, those are merelythe numbers I use to set my forms, the rod that comes out the other endof the shop is my own(wouldn't want to blame Dickerson or Payne for myattempts at one of their rods).John Vtbamboo@cs.com wrote: Thanks for the replies to my question, but I still not clear. I'llrephrase. I don't have any problems with accuracy, or adjusting thestrips to allow for glue. In fact for me the building of the blank (5rods so far) has been the easiest part of rodmaking, I don't mean anyarrogance here, I just feel very comfortable with this aspect. So farI've been recreating rods I have access to & can measure myself. Ihave adjusted my forms to alow for glue thickness, resulting in rodswhich measure very closely to the sample rods I'm copying. I assumethis is correct. I now want to make some rods using printed/publishedtapers. None of the books mention undercutting strips. Now thequestions: