1. Is it not mentioned because its obvious?2. Is it allowed for in the tapers (I.E. issomething deducted beforepublishing)3. Am I thickheaded.This may seem a moot point but I want to build the rods the authorsintended, not the rods that are the result of unintended, unneccesaryfiddling. Thanks for all the help,Vinnie from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 19 07:24:19 2001 f9JCOI414733 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:24:19 -0500 Subject: Re: String's the thing Tony,cotton string is difficult to measure because it changes with the ambientmoisturecontent which bring round full circle.It must be hard not being as smart as us?Terry Tony Young wrote: It never occurred to me at the time but you _can_ measure how long apieceof string is under the right set of circumstances. I guess if the string isin a ball or layed out there may be no limit to it's length but if it'sstrung between two points there will come a length at which the string willnot support it's own weight.That is actually what a knot in maritime use is. It's the length of a pieceof cord strung between two points 1 land mile apart with the dip of thestring due to gravity but stretched almost to breaking point while madesufficiently strong not to break so when the sag is taken into account itmeasured a pre determined one nautical mile.A nautical mile is 1/60th of a degree (one minute) of a great circle of theearth or 6,075'. A land mile is 1.15 nautical miles. Once the distance of the string was determined a knot (another one, samename different knot) was placed every 25' 4" or 1/240th of a nauticalmile.The number of knots paid out from the stern of a (hopefully moving) boatin15 seconds gave the knots per hr.That's why speed is rated in knots (distance of a piece of string traveledbetween two imagined points one land mile apart held at either end with thegravitational sag of the string taken into account) while distance is shownas miles on charts but could be shown as knots if you want, it justbecomesmore complicated. In the usual way of things there is a reason for the idea in the beginning,but nobody can remember why it continues to be done. ALSO, it is proper ifyou wish to say knots per hr as it's a linear measurement related to timeeven though people delight in saying it's wrong. Anybody wanting to arguethe point can take it up with James Cook or Horatio Nelson who mentionknots per hr in their log books. Of course if they had braided kevlar back then this would have a differentmeaning wouldn't it? Too bad really, a knot may have been almost a statutemile.Amazing stuff string. Thankyou Terry. Tony At 07:31 PM 10/18/01 -0400, Larry Blan wrote: How, praytell, do you expect me to answer this without knowing if thestringis cabled, or braided, and how many strands it contains??? Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 1:14 PM Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustL.eduSubject: Re: At the risk of sounding like Terry A I used to live in Northern Queensland in sugar cane country whereit's veryhot and wet during the monsoon with a mountain range pretty close tothecoast so there were lots of great winding roads of the type yousee in oldJames Bond movie car chases. I had a pretty fast car with lots ofgrunt andnot much in the way of handling and used Pirelli Winter Compound tierstokeep it on the tar. They stuck sh!t to a blanket on the road and I doremember getting almost 3 months from a set. These days I get alot longer from a set but the tiers I use are like wet choko skins bycomparison. Thenagain I drive like I want to make it to the destination. The string question warrants some thought. Is it cotton or nylon, neworused, and expected to be recylicable? Also, is it expected to be heattreated and coated or impregnated before use? Most importantly,can it haveany knots in it's length? Tony At 11:21 AM 10/18/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Trying to sound like a day in day out contributor to rodmakers, how long would a set of tires last in hours? how long is a piece of string?Terry Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I asked a question of the list about snake guide performance and got back 4 responses. Two were good info, 2 questioned how I got fishing somuch. What really concerns me is the fact we agonize over thread wraps,dustspots, reel seats being pretty and a host of other things that make the fishing poles we make look good. What we seem to be missing is that we are building fishing poles. They are meant to be used. Or perhaps, I'm out to lunch and most of us are building wall hangers. I know that when Snake Brand Guides arrived on the scene, the bulk of guys who wrote about them were impressed by their finish and fit. No mention of how long they might last. And this is only one example of the typeofthinking we seem to be caught up in. So the question remains, does anyone have any idea what brand ofsnakeguide lasts the longest. I like to fish. I use my equipment hard. I don't want to spend time in the shop replacing guides and refinishing arod.Or further, does anyone have any idea what testing could be done to rate the longevity of guides other than fishing them to death. If the fishing to death idea is the only answer, I may never live long enough to figure it out. If guides last about 2000 hours or less, this would seem formostanglers to be 7>10 years before the answer became apparent. In my case, this may translate to 2>4 years of angling effort. regards, Don /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 19 07:40:46 2001 f9JCej415296 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:40:45 -0500 Subject: Re: perfectionism I think that accepting that one is not the best rodmaker is a safe bet.Do all golfers need to play like Tiger to enjoy their game?I am completely happy with what I can produce and never look at other rods.Terry Shane Person wrote: The problem, as I see it is this: you do something that finally meetsyour standard of excellence and along comes someone else with somethingthat is just a little more excellent.Guess what happens to your standard of excellence? "T. Ackland" wrote: Hi pals,I dug this out of a book I have recently read and I immediatelythought of all you "artists".Striving for excellence is healthy, gratifying and attainable.However, aiming for perfection is frustrating, neurotic and a waste oftime.Comments?Terry from pcollin@rochester.rr.com Fri Oct 19 08:09:58 2001 f9JD9v416055 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:09:57 -0500 f9JD8sF08669 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:08:54 -0400 Subject: False Advertising in line weights I just put a line on my eighth rod. Taped the guides on and gave it a =cast - couldn't wait to give it a try. I must discuss a trend that I = There are many instances where I find that a rod will cast a line size =heavier than it is supposed to. I have a couple commercially built rods =that cast one line size larger than what is written on the blank, and i =have built several rods that cast one line size heavier better than what =they are supposed to. In case you are wondering, my rods all mic close =enough to the prescribed taper that I do not believe it is my planing =that is at fault. There is one taper that I have built 4 rods from - =and they all prefer a larger line size, so I won't blame it on the =properties of the cane from a particular culm. I have a commercially =built rod that is supposed to be a 4, and is really a 6! Now, I have discussed this with a fellow rodbuilder, and he suggested =that it may simply be a matter of taste, that I prefer a rod to load =more than other people. I'm not so sure. It is often that I try =several line sizes on different rods, and find that it will comfortably =cast 3 different weights. Therefore, if a rod will accept a 5, 6, and 7 =weight, one may safely label that taper as a 6 weight. Since =underlining will generally afford you greater casting distance, can that =be the explanation? That most folks opt for underlining a rod to cast =farther? Personally, because of the weight issue, I'd just as soon put =a 5 on a 5 weight, not a 4. Could I hear some of your comments? Peter Collin I just put a line on my eighth = There are many instances where I find= commercially built rods that cast one line size larger than what is = the blank, and i have built several rods that cast one line size heavier = close enough to the prescribed taper that I do not believe it is my = all prefer a larger line size, so I won't blame it on the properties of = to be a 4, and is really a 6! Now, I have discussed this with a = rodbuilder, and he suggested that it may simply be a matter of taste, = often that I try several line sizes on different rods, and find that it = underlining will generally afford you greater casting distance, can that = comments? PeterCollin from dmanders@telusplanet.net Fri Oct 19 08:09:59 2001 f9JD9w416057 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:09:58 -0500 Subject: Why the snake guide question Guys, I built a rod in 1983 that I really liked it for the fishing I do. Madeanother in 1988 and decided to fish it hard to find out what failed andabout how long it took before the failure occurred. I figured that thefishing time should be rated in hours effort rather than years. Years lefta lot to interpretation. The rod has been fishing from Northern Alberta forArctic Grayling to the spring creeks west of Livingstone, Montana. It'sbeen in the pontoon boat in class III white water, been out in freezingconditions, left on the truck dash for weeks at a time, fished throughseveral days of solid rain, been hauled through swamps, up cliffs and isstored in the truck from spring till fall. It's cast tiny dries to # 10heavily weighted nymphs. The only consideration it's been given is notstoring it wet. I went out of my way to intentionally kill this thing assoon as possible. The lines used on the were not cleaned. They werereplaced about every 2 years. An effort was made to abuse the rod. Duringit's life time, it's possible that it has landed near 10,000 trout. The intent was to fish this rod to determine what would fail and how longit would take. It has been truly treated like a Wally World Special.On a personal level, I mostly fish trout. I usually roll cast to get theline airborne, false cast once and present the fly. I've taught castingclinics. Most casts are under 30 feet and most fish average 10" althoughthe rod has landed 3 browns over 24" long. The rod had:1] a Zebra slip ring reel seat with Ni-silver rings and cap finished withlacquer2] A 6" cork handle glued with epoxy3] A rod shaft dip finished with Varathane 900 gloss 5 coats rubbed out4] Snake guides were originally Perfection5] Strip guide was Mildrum6] Fitted with Ni-Silver Super Z ferrules What failed and about when:1] The Zebra reel seat lacquer finish lasted about 2 weeks till the firsttime it got wet. It peeled off. Replaced the lacquer with varathane 900.Been OK since.2] The cork handle got depression marks where my thumb and fore fingerpressed in it during casting. The epoxy wouldn't shrink @ the same rate asthe cork requiring the epoxy glue rings to be filed down every now and then.3] The varathane finish on the rod shaft lasts about 25 times/year, they are working just fine. The cane itself is doing just fine. Other than rolling the tips to get theset going the other way, there has been no failure other than the one Iinflicted when it tried to land myself. Got a dropper caught in my gravelguards and a good sized trout on the dry. The line wrapped around the rodtip a couple of times. When lifting the trout, I bent the rod tip tofracture. Carpenter glued it back together, over-wrapped failure point andslobbed on some varnish. Was fishing it next week. So the abuse continues - with some luck - this afternoon. catch ya' Don from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Oct 19 08:36:39 2001 f9JDac417284 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:36:38 -0500 f9JDaUZ10959; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:36:31 -0500 Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights "Peter A. Collin" wrote Now, I have discussed this with a fellowrodbuilder, and he suggested that it may simplybe a matter of taste, that I prefer a rod toload more than other people. I'm not so sure.It is often that I try several line sizes ondifferent rods, and find that it willcomfortably cast 3 different weights.Therefore, if a rod will accept a 5, 6, and 7weight, one may safely label that taper as a 6weight.Could I hear some of your comments? Peter Collin Peter,I will go along with this.There is a rod company here in town that makestheir own blanks. I have the opportunity to casttheir new tapers for evaluation on line size. Ialways come up with one line size heavier thanthey say it is. We talked about that. The designerdoes the casting and sets the line size. He isbuilt about twice the size I am and has a lot morepower in his cast than I do. What he can do with a5 line on the rod I need a 6 wt line to do thesame. We determined it was the power we put intoour casting, Did I mention he is about 50 yearsold and I will never see 70 again. That might makethe difference too.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from jojo@ipa.net Fri Oct 19 08:52:04 2001 f9JDq3418077 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:52:03 -0500 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:51:59 -0400 Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights Peter, There is quite a range into which each of the various line sizes fall. = 114-126 grains. A grain isn't much, but throw in personal casting style, =and it may well be perceived that a heavier line weight is necessary. =Nothing's to say that someone in XXX Line Co. quality control isn't =paying attention, too. M-D Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:13 AMSubject: False Advertising in line weights I just put a line on my eighth rod. Taped the guides on and gave it a =cast - couldn't wait to give it a try. I must discuss a trend that I = There are many instances where I find that a rod will cast a line size =heavier than it is supposed to. I have a couple commercially built rods =that cast one line size larger than what is written on the blank, and i =have built several rods that cast one line size heavier better than what =they are supposed to. In case you are wondering, my rods all mic close =enough to the prescribed taper that I do not believe it is my planing =that is at fault. There is one taper that I have built 4 rods from - =and they all prefer a larger line size, so I won't blame it on the =properties of the cane from a particular culm. I have a commercially =built rod that is supposed to be a 4, and is really a 6! Now, I have discussed this with a fellow rodbuilder, and he suggested =that it may simply be a matter of taste, that I prefer a rod to load =more than other people. I'm not so sure. It is often that I try =several line sizes on different rods, and find that it will comfortably =cast 3 different weights. Therefore, if a rod will accept a 5, 6, and 7 =weight, one may safely label that taper as a 6 weight. Since =underlining will generally afford you greater casting distance, can that =be the explanation? That most folks opt for underlining a rod to cast =farther? Personally, because of the weight issue, I'd just as soon put =a 5 on a 5 weight, not a 4. Could I hear some of your comments? Peter Collin Peter, There is quite a = of a 4 weight can weigh anywhere from 114-126 grains. A grain isn't = throw in personal casting style, and it may well be perceived that a = line weight is necessary. Nothing's to say that someone in XXX Line Co. = control isn't paying attention, too. M-D ----- Original Message ----- A. Collin Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 = AMSubject: False Advertising in = weights I just put a line on my eighth = the guides on and gave it a cast - couldn't wait to give it a = must discuss a trend that I find in commercial rods and published = There are many instances where I find= commercially built rods that cast one line size larger than what is = the blank, and i have built several rods that cast one line size = rods all mic close enough to the prescribed taper that I do not = from - and they all prefer a larger line size, so I won't blame it on = built rod that is supposed to be a 4, and is really a 6! Now, I have discussed this with a = rodbuilder, and he suggested that it may simply be a matter of taste, = is often that I try several line sizes on different rods, and find = some of your comments? Collin from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Fri Oct 19 09:22:47 2001 f9JEMk420068 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:22:46 -0500 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:22:45 -0400 Subject: Snake wear: Hi Tony, I just did a rod that I had put titanium snakes on ten years ago and undera 10 power lit magnifying glass I could not find any noticeable wear. Thisrod was the client's first choice for fishing so my guess is that there weremany hours of use on it. I am planning on getting the snake makers fromGolden Witch so that I can produce my own snakes from titanium wire. Thesesnakes seemed to have performed the best of all the other snakes I haveused. To the list, does anybody know where titanium wire can be bought indifferent gauges and what is the minimum amount needed to order, also isthere anybody who has worked with the wire who could share theirexperiencewith the list? Take care, Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Oct 19 10:13:17 2001 f9JFDF422702 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:13:16 -0500 Subject: It could be a lot worse Due to several consecutive years of drought in some areas and flood in others causing alternate dry rivers and algae blooms the trout have had a pretty bad run of it around here so a few of us got together and formed Da Syndi-cate . We found a farm in the hills with a spring fed dam of about 15 acres with natural wooded sides, really quite pretty actually and stocked it with 3,000 rainbow yearlings in the first year and 2,000 in the second.We specifically didn't want browns in the dam for obvious reasons but I had a nagging feeling there were some in there because the farmer is an old English bloke who fished and I simply couldn't believe there were none in there but he said there weren't, I told anybody who'd listen I didn't believe it but he was just telling us that so we use his dam (he gets a $10 per day rod fee).My son, a blue water fisherman friend and I went there for the first time fishing last weekend and we did pretty well which was nice for a change. The initial batch of bows were 14 inches and above with a few around 20" all feeding pretty freely.I and my son had to leave early so we left Rosco there.I just had a phone call from him who told me he was fishing amonst a wooded area and was finishing up, he had the dry in the hook keeper but the nymph dropper was in the water. Next he knew the rod sprung up, the hook of the dry was set in his little finger and he was playing a brown that took the nymph and "looked like a barrel" from his little finger. He had it on for about 30 seconds, Rosco says he wished he was using 3x instead of 4because he may have had a chance.Excited as you would be he ripped a piece of shirt and wrapped it around his finger then with the smell of blood (his own) in his nostrils restrung his rod thusly setting out to again do battle. Rosco is a game old guy, I've seen him grab a marlin by the beak and club to death a white pointer attached to it's tail with a baseball bat so a #12 hook through his finger is nothing.!!!????The arsey bastard hooked another within 15 mins and landed it. It was about 8 lbs and said to be smaller than the first. When he asked the owner about what browns were doing in the dam the reply was "yea....there may have been some a while ago....dunno how they got there..... Tony from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Fri Oct 19 10:18:10 2001 f9JFI9423108 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:18:09 -0500 Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:18:11 +0100 Subject: Re: carp rod MKIV Geert,This is an easy one!I am just setting off to the Chatsworth Game and Fishing fair but willpost the taper to the list on my return..sometime next week.Tight lines........Paul Geert Poorteman wrote: Dear all,Now I know all of you are fly fisher men, and I do my share whenever i can,butbeing a belgian (but living in Africa), I have different fishing. I used to fish makea carp rod for carp of course, but also for catfish here in the lake (again,notrout around here, the nearest being in Kenya). Is there someone in britainwhocan give me the specs for a MKIV carp rod, or another one if no MKIV isavailable Regards,Geert Poorteman from joseus@cybertech.com.ar Fri Oct 19 10:19:04 2001 f9JFJ2423266 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:19:02 -0500 f9JESrD20903 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:28:53 -0300 Subject: Intermediate Form type="multipart/alternative"; Hola amigos. Yo estoy feliz, como un perro con dos rabos. Como un =caballo con ocho patas. Yo deseaba construir un intermediate forn. Ya lo =habia mirado en el catalogo de Golden witch. Construi una herramienta =para desbastar la madera. En el taller de un carpintero amigo y =utilizando su maquinaria, yo ya tengo mi propio intermediate form. Yo me =disculpo por enviar una imagen. No volvera a suceder. No tengo otra =forma de mostralselo a ustedes. Ahora yo acepto que se me reprenda. A mi=me parecia que con varias ranuras de 60=BA seria mejor. Cuando se gasta =una, yo utilizo la otra. Utilice madera de Nogal Hindu. Tiene 5=B4 de =longitud. Yo creo que es suficiente. Con esta herramienta podre =adelantar trabajo en mis varas. Puedo cepillar varias y dejarlas =preparadas. Mi esposa dice que la esposa de Tony tiene razon. Menos mal =que soy paranoico y no sicopata. Bueno amigos hasta pronto. Alberto. Hello friends. I am happy, as a dog with two tails. As a horse with =eight paws. I wanted to build a you intermediate yourself forn. He/she =had already looked at it in the I classify of Golden witch. I built a =tool to roughdress the wood. In the shop of a carpenter friend and using =their machinery, I already have my own one you intermediate yourself =form. I apologize to send an image. It doesn't happen again. I don't =have another mostralselo form to you. Now I accept me to be reprehended. =To my I looked like each other that with serious several grooves of =60=BA better. When he/she wears out a, I use the other one. Use wood of =Hindu Walnut. He/she has 5=B4 of longitude. I believe that it is enough. =With this tool it rots to advance work in my sticks. I can brush several =and to leave them prepared. My wife says that Tony's wife is right. Less =bad than I am paranoiac and non psychopath. Good friends until soon. = Hola amigos. Yo estoy feliz, como un perro con dos rabos. Como un = ocho patas. Yo deseaba construir un intermediate forn. Ya lo habia = catalogo de Golden witch. Construi una herramienta para desbastar la = el taller de un carpintero amigo y utilizando su maquinaria, yo ya tengo = propio intermediate form. Yo me disculpo por enviar una imagen. No = suceder. No tengo otra forma de mostralselo a ustedes. Ahora yo acepto = reprenda. A mi me parecia que con varias ranuras de 60=BA seria mejor. = gasta una, yo utilizo la otra. Utilice madera de Nogal Hindu. Tiene 5=B4 = longitud. Yo creo que es suficiente. Con esta herramienta podre = trabajo en mis varas. Puedo cepillar varias y dejarlas preparadas. Mi = dice que la esposa de Tony tiene razon. Menos mal que soy paranoico y no = sicopata. Bueno amigos hasta pronto. Alberto.Hello friends. I am happy, as a dog with two tails. As a horse with = paws. I wanted to build a you intermediate yourself forn. He/she had = looked at it in the I classify of Golden witch. I built a tool to = wood. In the shop of a carpenter friend and using their machinery, I = have my own one you intermediate yourself form. I apologize to send an = doesn't happen again. I don't have another mostralselo form to you. Now = me to be reprehended. To my I looked like each other that with serious = grooves of 60=BA better. When he/she wears out a, I use the other one. = Hindu Walnut. He/she has 5=B4 of longitude. I believe that it is enough. = tool it rots to advance work in my sticks. I can brush several and to = prepared. My wife says that Tony's wife is right. Less bad than I am = and non psychopath. Good friends until soon. Alberto. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Oct 19 10:20:17 2001 f9JFKF423515 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:20:15 -0500 Subject: Re: String's the thing All I can do is work hard and apply myself and one day maybe if I'm real lucky and keep trying and study hard I'll get there and it'll be largely due to all your help, thanks Terry. Gee you're good to us. Tony At 08:22 AM 10/19/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,cotton string is difficult to measure because it changes with the ambient moisturecontent which bring round full circle.It must be hard not being as smart as us?Terry /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Oct 19 10:29:31 2001 f9JFTT424831 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:29:29 -0500 "Rodmakers Info" Subject: Re: Snake wear: I'm surprised Terry didn't suggest this before me as he knows it all apparently and I being unworthy and all but I messed with titanium a year or so back and the first thing I noticed was you can't touch it with a file or even a de burring tool without a lot of effort so the grit on a fly line shouldn't be anything.I've also seen used pitons and ice screws which compared with steel ones look almost new apart from a bit of mushrooming of the heads from hammerblows.What I don't know is where wire could be got and if they can be darkened somehow. Tony At 10:26 AM 10/19/01 -0400, Tim Doughty wrote: Hi Tony, I just did a rod that I had put titanium snakes on ten years ago and undera 10 power lit magnifying glass I could not find any noticeable wear. Thisrod was the client's first choice for fishing so my guess is that there weremany hours of use on it. I am planning on getting the snake makers fromGolden Witch so that I can produce my own snakes from titanium wire.Thesesnakes seemed to have performed the best of all the other snakes I haveused. To the list, does anybody know where titanium wire can be bought indifferent gauges and what is the minimum amount needed to order, also isthere anybody who has worked with the wire who could share theirexperiencewith the list? Take care, Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from jerryy@webtv.net Fri Oct 19 11:01:59 2001 f9JG1w427100 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:01:58 -0500 by mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:02:03 -0700 (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id JAA14890; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:01:59 - ETAuAhUAizkuM4LHE9/5Kd4B5J0QXML8EuoCFQCfmUeFSkU4nIXFwxGRwzHDxbIgKw== Subject: Titanium wire Some one was looking for a source for this wire. Small Parts, Inc.800-220- 4242 Email -parts@smallparts.com carries stainless wire in type304, 316 and 17-4 PH spring wire, pure tungsten, Hi-carbon Hi Mn musicwire as well as Nitrol. This is the Ni-Titanium wire that has memory.I assume that it is the same material that REC is making snakes out of.Sizes start at .005 and up. Regards, Jerry Young from caneman@clnk.com Fri Oct 19 11:34:53 2001 f9JGYn428924 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:34:50 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights Peter,This, in my opinion, is a meld of two things... first, casting =style... for instance, I had a 7' 3 wt quad at Grayling. I could cast a =hole in the wind with a 3 wt on it. Keep in mind that I'm a "punch" =style caster and I punish the living hell out of a rod when I cast. =Olaf Borge picked it up, asked if I minded if he changed lines. He cast =a 5 on it with all the grace and accuracy you could imagine. After =that, several people casted several lines and almost everyone had a =different opinion on what was the best line for that little rod. Most =like a 3 or a 4, some the 5... I sold the rod, quite by accident, =really... had it at the Southern Council Conclave and one of my ="regular" customers just said "What's it gonna take to buy that rod" so =he met a ridiculous price and took it home. Since that two weeks has =passed, he emailed me and said he had cast a 2, 3, and 4 on it and loved =it with all of them, saying it was the most versitale rod he'd ever had. =Again, just a difference in casting styles, his is more like mine, if =not even more punishing to the rod, but someone that lets the rod do all =the work, like Olaf, loved it with a 5. I guess that's all because we =look at tapers as tapers for a particular line size... we generally =don't consider, and maybe we should, the distance a flyfisher is giong =to be casting at, and his style of casting. Of course, when I sell a =rod from here to someone in Capetown, South Africa, I can't very well =say, "Come on by the shop and cast a few rods and lets see what rod =suits you best", so we have to generalize to line size. It would be =fantastic if we could do that, but it just doesn't always work that way. =If it did, then we could fit every rod to the customer and his casting =style and fishing conditions, not to the weight of the flyline.Now, reason #2. Some of the major rod companies intentionally =underate the rods and blanks. In other words, if you buy a 9' 4 wt XXXX =brand rod, you can immediately put a 5 or 6 on it and it will cast so =much more sweet and clean. They do this to protect the rods from people =like me that punish the hell out of them. If I consistently cast that =little quad with a DT5 or WF5 on it, as hard as I cast, it MIGHT have =eventually presented a overstress situation for that rod. With me =casting a 3 on it, no problem at all, and that's where the graphite =people and MANY major cane people reason to rate their rods a line =lighter than they really are. A very popular maker, who once worked for =one of the BIG companies in the 70s, once told me that if you buy a 4 = from him, that a relaxed caster should be able to cast a 6 wt on it with =ease.Well, there's my 2 cents, for what it's worth. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:13 AMSubject: False Advertising in line weights I just put a line on my eighth rod. Taped the guides on and gave it a =cast - couldn't wait to give it a try. I must discuss a trend that I = There are many instances where I find that a rod will cast a line size =heavier than it is supposed to. I have a couple commercially built rods =that cast one line size larger than what is written on the blank, and i =have built several rods that cast one line size heavier better than what =they are supposed to. In case you are wondering, my rods all mic close =enough to the prescribed taper that I do not believe it is my planing =that is at fault. There is one taper that I have built 4 rods from - =and they all prefer a larger line size, so I won't blame it on the =properties of the cane from a particular culm. I have a commercially =built rod that is supposed to be a 4, and is really a 6! Now, I have discussed this with a fellow rodbuilder, and he suggested =that it may simply be a matter of taste, that I prefer a rod to load =more than other people. I'm not so sure. It is often that I try =several line sizes on different rods, and find that it will comfortably =cast 3 different weights. Therefore, if a rod will accept a 5, 6, and 7 =weight, one may safely label that taper as a 6 weight. Since =underlining will generally afford you greater casting distance, can that =be the explanation? That most folks opt for underlining a rod to cast =farther? Personally, because of the weight issue, I'd just as soon put =a 5 on a 5 weight, not a 4. Could I hear some of your comments? Peter Collin Peter, = mind that I'm a "punch" style caster and I punish the living hell out of = almost everyone had a different opinion on what was the best line for = Council Conclave and one of my "regular" customers just said "What's it = take to buy that rod" so he met a ridiculous price and took it = that two weeks has passed, he emailed me and said he had cast a 2, 3, = it and loved it with all of them, saying it was the most versitale rod = look at tapers as tapers for a particular line size... we generally = consider, and maybe we should, the distance a flyfisher is giong to be = someone in Capetown, South Africa, I can't very well say, "Come on by = and cast a few rods and lets see what rod suits you best", so we have to = to the customer and his casting style and fishing conditions, not to the = of the flyline. Some = In other words, if you buy a 9' 4 wt XXXX brand rod, you can immediately = this to protect the rods from people like me that punish the hell out of = hard as I cast, it MIGHT have eventually presented a overstress = the graphite people and MANY major cane people reason to rate their rods = ease. worth. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- A. Collin Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 = AMSubject: False Advertising in = weights I just put a line on my eighth = the guides on and gave it a cast - couldn't wait to give it a = must discuss a trend that I find in commercial rods and published = There are many instances where I find= commercially built rods that cast one line size larger than what is = the blank, and i have built several rods that cast one line size = rods all mic close enough to the prescribed taper that I do not = from - and they all prefer a larger line size, so I won't blame it on = built rod that is supposed to be a 4, and is really a 6! Now, I have discussed this with a = rodbuilder, and he suggested that it may simply be a matter of taste, = is often that I try several line sizes on different rods, and find = some of your comments? Collin from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Oct 19 11:47:14 2001 f9JGlD429694 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:47:13 -0500 Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights pcollin@rochester.rr.com I was there with Bob when this all was going on. I had my little 5'3" one piece there that I modified from Bob's 5' one piece by adding the 3"s under the grip. Olaf cast a 2/3/4 on it and said it was better with the 4 on it. i and some others also cast these lines and yes the rod worked with all of them but it took different casting strokes to do it. with the 2 that Bob rated it for it cast beautifully (ask anyone who cast it) and it also cast nicely with the other two lines you just had to modify the stroke. I like bob am a very aggressive caster but I also cast well enough to adjust to almost any rod. The manufacturers do underrate their rods and you shouldbe able to go up or down one line size and still cast the rod with ease. I have seen one difference though. I have a rod that I use in Quebec for Atlantics and it takes an 8. I was handed a 10 and it overpowered the rod and made it feel like it was falling down on you. Any good caster should be able to use the lien suggested for what they have.Bret from rmoon@ida.net Fri Oct 19 12:00:09 2001 f9JH08400644 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:00:08 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: ferrules specs About a week ago, I mentioned that I would supply specs on the Bronze ferrules I made. Since then I have had a melt down and lost all of my inbox. I can't remember who responded. Will you please let me know. I have been trying to get the drawings scanned.Ralph from BambooRods@aol.com Fri Oct 19 12:11:02 2001 f9JHB1401510 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:11:01 -0500 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:11:03 -0400 Subject: Binder Purchase I am interested in purchasing a "manufactured" binder. Not sure what is available on the market and/or what recommendations the list could make. Just tired of making do with the one I built. TIA from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Oct 19 12:14:29 2001 f9JHES401877 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:14:28 -0500 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:14:31 -0400 Subject: reel seats I had a lot of inquiries on the reel seats I posted last weekso instead of emailing all the individuals I'm posting a link. Thanks to all who replied.:))sorry for any inconvenience and space Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html so instead of emailing all the = posting a link.The reel seat page is now updated. = www.homestead.com/= Thanks to all who =replied.:))sorry for any inconvenience and =space Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from pcollin@rochester.rr.com Fri Oct 19 15:47:30 2001 f9JKlT411286 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:47:29 -0500 f9JKkYF06412 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:46:35 -0400 Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update I just went out and cast the same rod I mentioned in my earlier post. =This morning I tried it with a 5 and a 6. I just tried it with a 7 and =an 8. I have come to the conclusion that the rod is a 7/8. Now, I am =rather peeved about this, because I did not want a 7/8, I wanted the 5 =weight I set out to build. The taper was listed as a 5 weight in the =book I got it from. It does not cast a 5 very well at all. You can not =feel the rod loading behind you on the backcast. My blank came out =nicely, cosmetically and so forth, but I don't even feel like finishing =it anymore. I guess the moral to the story is that you are taking =somebody's taper dimensions completely on faith unless you get to cast a =similar rod beforehand. Maybe someday I will attend a rodmaker's =gathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the way the rod casts =with a 5 weight. I simply can not believe that personal taste is my =problem with the taper. Which leads to another question - does anybody have a good taper for an =8 1/2 foot 5 weight? That is what this rod was supposed to be. I know =many bamboo guys like short rods, but I am not one of them. I can get =over a little extra weight for the better distance and line control a =long rod gives. I was intrigued by John Geirach's writing how his =favorite rod is an 8 1/2 foot 5 weight Mike Clark. I heard a rumor that =Clark's rod may be a bit of a noodle. But I was heartened when I built =an 8 1/2 foot rod for a buddy this spring. It was a Ray Gould 6 weight =taper. When I got done, it turned out to be a 6/7, but I really loved =the way it cast. I was tempted to built another rod based on the same =taper, but to shave a few thousandths off and try for a 5. Problem is, =the tip measurement is only about .065 inches on the original taper. I =don't know if I would trust a tip any smaller than that. Any =suggestions/anecdotes? Peter Collin I just went out and cast the same rod I= out nicely, cosmetically and so forth, but I don't even feel like = taper dimensions completely on faith unless you get to cast a similar = taper. Which leads to another question - does= is, the tip measurement is only about .065 inches on the original = suggestions/anecdotes? PeterCollin from martinrjensen@home.com Fri Oct 19 17:16:36 2001 f9JMGZ414592 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:16:35 -0500 femail27.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:16:35 -0700 Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights - update I think you are asking for a lot. Once you get to a certain size you aredealing with the weight of the bamboo. I personally don't think youcould build a 8.5 ft 5 wt. rod. I mean I don';t think it is possible.Maybe an 8 ft'er. Now you could build a 8.5 ft'er and cast a 5 wt on itbut I wouldn't call it a 5 wt just because of that. Now graphite youcould do 10 ft 5 wt easy, but we don't want to do that. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update I just went out and cast the same rod I mentioned in my earlier post.This morning I tried it with a 5 and a 6. I just tried it with a 7 andan 8. I have come to the conclusion that the rod is a 7/8. Now, I amrather peeved about this, because I did not want a 7/8, I wanted the 5weight I set out to build. The taper was listed as a 5 weight in thebook I got it from. It does not cast a 5 very well at all. You can notfeel the rod loading behind you on the backcast. My blank came outnicely, cosmetically and so forth, but I don't even feel like finishingit anymore. I guess the moral to the story is that you are takingsomebody's taper dimensions completely on faith unless you get to cast asimilar rod beforehand. Maybe someday I will attend a rodmaker'sgathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the way the rod castswith a 5 weight. I simply can not believe that personal taste is myproblem with the taper. Which leads to another question - does anybody have a good taper for an8 1/2 foot 5 weight? That is what this rod was supposed to be. I knowmany bamboo guys like short rods, but I am not one of them. I can getover a little extra weight for the better distance and line control along rod gives. I was intrigued by John Geirach's writing how hisfavorite rod is an 8 1/2 foot 5 weight Mike Clark. I heard a rumor thatClark's rod may be a bit of a noodle. But I was heartened when I builtan 8 1/2 foot rod for a buddy this spring. It was a Ray Gould 6 weighttaper. When I got done, it turned out to be a 6/7, but I really lovedthe way it cast. I was tempted to built another rod based on the sametaper, but to shave a few thousandths off and try for a 5. Problem is,the tip measurement is only about .065 inches on the original taper. Idon't know if I would trust a tip any smaller than that. Anysuggestions/anecdotes? Peter Collin Message think you are asking for a lot. Once you get to a certain size you are = with the weight of the bamboo. I personally don't think you could build = 5 wt. rod. I mean I don';t think it is possible. Maybe an 8 ft'er. Now = build a 8.5 ft'er and cast a 5 wt on it but I wouldn't call it a 5 wt = because of that. Now graphite you could do 10 ft 5 wt easy, but we don't = do that. Jensen -----Original Message----- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = On Behalf Of Peter A. CollinSent: Friday, October = line weights - updateI just went out and cast the same rod = My blank came out nicely, cosmetically and so forth, but I don't even = are taking somebody's taper dimensions completely on faith unless you = gathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the way the rod casts = the taper. Which leads to another question - = tempted to built another rod based on the same taper, but to shave a = suggestions/anecdotes? Collin from martinrjensen@home.com Fri Oct 19 17:27:40 2001 f9JMRd415057 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:27:39 -0500 femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:27:39 -0700 ,, ,,, ,"'Harry Boyd'" , Subject: RE: perfectionism f9JMRe415058 Yea, I remember that now. We should "join her up" and see how she isdoing... Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- JNL123141@msn.com; Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com;KlingB@health.missouri.edu; 'Harry Boyd'; hexagon@odyssee.net Subject: Re: perfectionism Brad, as I remember Josie it would have been like this: what the f*&k, im f*&king tired of everyones f^&kingmessages in my f*&king in box Ah yes, such sweet memories of a loving soul....... regards, carsten ----- Original Message ----- ; ;; "'Harry Boyd'" ; Subject: RE: perfectionism her name was josieand it was 3011 emails...what the f*&k, im tired of everyones f^&kingmessages in my in box the fond memorieslaterBrad *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/18/01 at 8:02 PM Martin Jensen wrote: Yea, for a while there, I thought I might have worked with her when I worked in the shipyards.. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 8:06 PM Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com; KlingB@health.missouri.edu; 'Harry Boyd'; hexagon@odyssee.netCc: 'RodmakersPost'Subject: RE: perfectionism What I couldn't understand is why that would upset her, I mean she seemed the type to have about that many phone calls a night especially with thatamazing grasp of the vulgar vernacular.... I sort of remember somebody musing she may even have been a convent girl?????whoops [;-)] Tony At 07:46 PM 10/18/01 -0700, Martin Jensen wrote: I remember her! That was pretty funny. She was just a little bit upsetat having something like 1000 messages in her inbox as I recall... from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Fri Oct 19 17:38:46 2001 f9JMcj415631 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:38:45 -0500 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:29:18 -0500 Subject: RE: perfectionism That's a darn good question. I'll phone Grandpa to see.....-----Original Message----- hexagon@odyssee.net Subject: Re: perfectionism Does that apply to women? ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: perfectionism My favorite, and most useful of Grandpa's quotes is: "You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, you can have it good. Picktwo." I've never found this to be incorrect. TAM from channer@frontier.net Fri Oct 19 17:48:23 2001 f9JMmM416069 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:48:22 -0500 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:52:03 -0600 Subject: Re: Why the snake guide question Don;Thanks for keeping track of what holds up and what doesn't for us. Aquestion or 2, what do you do to keep Varathane 900 from turning tojelly in the tube? i generally use it of refinsh jobs that require colorpreserver and put a small amount in a little bottle, float some thinneron top between uses and I can hardly get a rod done before it has turnedto goo. I would say that 3000 hours sounds like a pretty decent life forsnake guides, I guess Perfection hasn't stayed in business all theseyears by making crap. i will be most interested to see how long theSnake Brand guides I have been using last, but i'm afraid i don't havethe discipline to keep as close track as you do. My rods are dated, so Ican at least keep track of how many years they hold up.John Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I built a rod in 1983 that I really liked it for the fishing I do. Madeanother in 1988 and decided to fish it hard to find out what failed andabout how long it took before the failure occurred. I figured that thefishing time should be rated in hours effort rather than years. Years lefta lot to interpretation. The rod has been fishing from Northern Alberta forArctic Grayling to the spring creeks west of Livingstone, Montana. It'sbeen in the pontoon boat in class III white water, been out in freezingconditions, left on the truck dash for weeks at a time, fished throughseveral days of solid rain, been hauled through swamps, up cliffs and isstored in the truck from spring till fall. It's cast tiny dries to # 10heavily weighted nymphs. The only consideration it's been given is notstoring it wet. I went out of my way to intentionally kill this thing assoon as possible. The lines used on the were not cleaned. They werereplaced about every 2 years. An effort was made to abuse the rod. Duringit's life time, it's possible that it has landed near 10,000 trout. The intent was to fish this rod to determine what would fail and how longit would take. It has been truly treated like a Wally World Special.On a personal level, I mostly fish trout. I usually roll cast to get theline airborne, false cast once and present the fly. I've taught castingclinics. Most casts are under 30 feet and most fish average 10" althoughthe rod has landed 3 browns over 24" long. The rod had:1] a Zebra slip ring reel seat with Ni-silver rings and cap finished withlacquer2] A 6" cork handle glued with epoxy3] A rod shaft dip finished with Varathane 900 gloss 5 coats rubbed out4] Snake guides were originally Perfection5] Strip guide was Mildrum6] Fitted with Ni-Silver Super Z ferrules What failed and about when:1] The Zebra reel seat lacquer finish lasted about 2 weeks till the firsttime it got wet. It peeled off. Replaced the lacquer with varathane 900.Been OK since.2] The cork handle got depression marks where my thumb and fore fingerpressed in it during casting. The epoxy wouldn't shrink @ the same rate asthe cork requiring the epoxy glue rings to be filed down every now andthen.3] The varathane finish on the rod shaft lasts about 2 starts to crack along the glue lines. When it fails I usually rub it downwith steel wool and slob on some more finish till winter and a rebuild.4] The original snakes were hard chromed Perfections. They lasted about3500 hours and got switched out during a recoat.5] The Mildrum Strip guide lasted just fine6] The Ni-silver Super Z ferrules got sloppy and have been waxed fromabout3000 hours. Frankly I like them like that. Makes the rod easy to take apartand other than waxing 3>5 times/year, they are working just fine. The cane itself is doing just fine. Other than rolling the tips to get theset going the other way, there has been no failure other than the one Iinflicted when it tried to land myself. Got a dropper caught in my gravelguards and a good sized trout on the dry. The line wrapped around the rodtip a couple of times. When lifting the trout, I bent the rod tip tofracture. Carpenter glued it back together, over-wrapped failure point andslobbed on some varnish. Was fishing it next week. So the abuse continues - with some luck - this afternoon. catch ya' Don from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Oct 19 18:00:17 2001 f9JN0H416536 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:00:17 -0500 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:00:20 -0400 Subject: Varnish /Jelly JohnThe way to keep varnish from turning to jelly is to remove the air.i.e. lets say you have a can of varnish, put it in a plastic water =bottle(the kind you by at convenient stores).then squeeze the bottle so the varnish goes to the top, then put the cap =back on. The bottle stays squeezed in(as long as it's air tight). It =looks funny, but it is like pulling a vacuum. as possible.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html JohnThe way to keep varnish from turningto = remove the air.i.e. lets say you have = stores).then squeeze the bottle so the varnish= top, then put the cap back on. The bottle stays squeezed in(as long as = tight). It looks funny, but it is like pulling a vacuum. tubes keep them as full as possible.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from ChristopherO@epicimaging.com Fri Oct 19 18:17:01 2001 f9JNH0417052 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:17:00 -0500 id ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:06:33 -0700 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Varnish /Jelly this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. The other thing you might try is CO2, bloxygen (an inert nitrogen gas soldat specialty paint stores), or nitrous wine saver (sold at gormet andspecialty wine stores).These all serve to displace the oxygen that would other wise react with thevarnish/urethane, so that the finnish stays forever (or more realistically1-2 years before you must replace it). Give it a try. chris -----Original Message----- Subject: Varnish /Jelly JohnThe way to keep varnish from turning to jelly is to remove the air.i.e. lets say you have a can of varnish, put it in a plastic waterbottle(the kind you by at convenient stores).then squeeze the bottle so the varnish goes to the top, then put the capback on. The bottle stays squeezed in(as long as it's air tight). It looksfunny, but it is like pulling a vacuum.No air = no dry. Try it out, it works. On dip tubes keep them as full aspossible.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html------ CleanCleanDocumentEmail MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle- rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso- style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para- margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow- orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} The other thing you might try is =CO2, bloxygen (an inert nitrogen gas sold at specialty =paintstores), or nitrous wine saver (sold at gormet andspecialty wine stores). These all serve to displace the =oxygenthat would other wise react with the varnish/urethane, so that the =finnish stays forever (or more realistically=A01-2 years beforeyou =must replaceit). Give it a =try. chris -----Original =Message-----From: Tony Miller Sent: Friday, October =19, 20014:01 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Varnish =/Jelly John The way to keep varnish = from turningto jelly is to remove the air. i.e. lets say you have you by atconvenient stores). then squeeze the bottle so =thevarnish goes to the top, then put the cap back on. The bottle stays =squeezedin(as long as it's air tight). It looks funny, but it is like pulling a =vacuum. out, possible. Tony =Miller www.homestead.com=/bambooshop/home.html from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Oct 19 18:19:11 2001 f9JNJA417265 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:19:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Martin, I have an 8'6" 4wt, a 9' 5wt, a 9' 3wt., etc. Why do you not think this is possible?Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Martin Jensen wrote: I think you are asking for a lot. Once you get to a certain size you are dealing with the weight of the bamboo. I personally don't think you could build a 8.5 ft 5 wt. rod. I mean I don';t think it is possible. Maybe an 8 ft'er. Now you could build a 8.5 ft'er and cast a 5 wt on it but I wouldn't call it a 5 wt just because of that. Now graphite you could do 10 ft 5 wt easy, but we don't want to do that. Martin Jensen from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 18:20:11 2001 f9JNKA417427 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:20:10 -0500 Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:20:10 -0700 "rodmakers@mail. wustL. edu" Subject: Re: beginning rod builder FILETIME=[99137BE0:01C158F4] David: I live in Manchester, MI. You are welcome to come on over and visit.Contact me off list. Jeff from teekay35@interlynx.net Fri Oct 19 18:35:03 2001 f9JNZ2418087 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:35:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Varnish /Jelly A year or two back someone on the list recommended using the inert, =heavier than air, gas formed by mixing vinegar and baking soda. Mix the =two in the bottom of a large jar. "Pour" the gas (its invisible) into =the top of your dip tube or varnish can where it will displace the =oxygen. I think the gas is carbon monoxide. Works good for me. A year or two back someone on the list= invisible) into the top of your dip tube or varnish can where it will = me. from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Oct 19 18:49:36 2001 f9JNnZ418529 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:49:35 -0500 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:49:39 -0400 Subject: Re:Varnish/Jelly We could go one step further and set up an ozonizer controlled by an =atomic fusion reactor that is powered by slamming two atoms togetherthus obtaining energy by a controlled implosion. LOL:))Just joking guys, don't take it personal:)) I'm always clowning around.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html We could go one step further and setup = controlled by an atomic fusion reactor that is powered by slamming two = togetherthus obtaining energy by a controlled = LOL:)) I'm always clowning around.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Fri Oct 19 19:05:46 2001 f9K05j419102 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:05:45 -0500 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:56:18 -0500 Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights On the FFF casting instructors list (very similar in form to our Rodmakers),we have discussed this very topic several times. Here are some snippets from what certified casting instructors say, if anyone cares.... (snip) This is a very interesting topic. Everyone seams to have a differentopinion as to how to line a rod, and most peoples opinions are correct.They are almost always based on ones personal experience andexperimentation. I believe the confusion comes from the fact that all rods and all linesare not created equal. Troy makes some great points about overliningstiffer rods as apposed to softer rods. I believe that this is the essenceof understanding how to line a rod. The stiffer the rod, the more forgiving it will be to overlining, butthe less forgiving it will be to underlining. Conversely, the softer therod, the more forgiving it will be to underlining, and the less forgiving itwill be to overlining. Eddie Robinson (snip) I think this boils down to whether you are talking about carrying a lengthof line or shooting. In my mind, there is no doubt that I would rather dropa line weight if I want to try to carry 60 or more feet in the air with anaverage rod. If I use an ultra stiff rod like a Boron XTR or one of theAbels, then I don't drop a weight. I think those rods were designed fromthe start with the expectation that they will be casting long lines as aroutine. The downside is that they require concentration and a very short,sharp stroke with impeccable timing to cast less than 40 feet. It's a lotlike work.Down here along the Texas coast, it is very common practice to buy a verystiff rod (RPL+ is a popular series), and then go up one or even two lineweights. This is generally done to fight the wind, not go for maximumdistance. Most fish will be caught within 60 feet. And with a big shoot,it will stretch to 100'+ even when overlined. But try to carry 70' of WF9Fline on an RPL+ 790 and you've got your hands full! I can't tell you how many outfits I've sold this way(overlining stiff rods),working weekends at a local fly shop. That's what the customers want. ThenI get those same people back in the store a month later, wanting to know whyit's impossible to carry over 50 feet of line without tailing loops. Andthese are decent casters. It's all a matter of loading. If you want tocarry the long line, it generally works best to either use the intended linewt for a modern stiff rod, or drop a weight for a medium to medium-fastrod.I take them out on the lawn and show that with the right line weight, therod is capable of carrying considerably more line in the air. Dermon was right on his comment that velocity is actually a more significantparameter than mass in the energy equation. The velocity term getssquared,while the mass term is to the first power. This means that if you canincrease speed by 20% (keeping mass the same), it will impact the energymore than if you keep the speed the same and increase the mass by 20%.Nowwe really have two things to think about, the acceleration part of the cast(where the line is gaining its energy), and the deceleration part, where theloop is progressing forward. Extra mass hurts you when you are trying togain energy, but helps you once you have got it. Think in terms of VWs andMac trucks......Some insightful people have tried to use firearms ballistic tables as anexample of how retained energy at a given distance is greater with a heavierbullet. And they are right. It does work that way with bullets. But thecorrelation is not as straightforward with a flyrod and line. We can'tsimply "add more gunpowder", because doing so often results in the dreadedinverted loop. It is not just the velocity we are concerned about, but alsothe shape of the loop, which changes with technique and rod top path. Theballistic coefficient of a bullet is constant (because it is assumed that abullet's shape stays the same no matter how much powder you put behind it),but not so on our loops!! Troy (snip) So we are saying about the same as what has been related here. A decentcaster can accomodate a line weight off "perfect", by adjusting his strokeand application of power. "Line weights" are concrete and abstract at thesame time. You can measure the weight of the first 30' of line, and put itin a class. But saying that a rod is a #4, or #5, or #6 -- that is anarbitrary decision made by the person holding the rod in his hand. TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: False Advertising in line weights I just put a line on my eighth rod. Taped the guides on and gave it a cast- couldn't wait to give it a try. I must discuss a trend that I find incommercial rods and published tapers - There are many instances where I find that a rod will cast a line sizeheavier than it is supposed to. I have a couple commercially built rodsthat cast one line size larger than what is written on the blank, and i havebuilt several rods that cast one line size heavier better than what they aresupposed to. In case you are wondering, my rods all mic close enough to theprescribed taper that I do not believe it is my planing that is at fault.There is one taper that I have built 4 rods from - and they all prefer alarger line size, so I won't blame it on the properties of the cane from aparticular culm. I have a commercially built rod that is supposed to be a4, and is really a 6! Now, I have discussed this with a fellow rodbuilder, and he suggested thatit may simply be a matter of taste, that I prefer a rod to load more thanother people. I'm not so sure. It is often that I try several line sizeson different rods, and find that it will comfortably cast 3 differentweights. Therefore, if a rod will accept a 5, 6, and 7 weight, one maysafely label that taper as a 6 weight. Since underlining will generallyafford you greater casting distance, can that be the explanation? That mostfolks opt for underlining a rod to cast farther? Personally, because of theweight issue, I'd just as soon put a 5 on a 5 weight, not a 4. Could I hearsome of your comments? Peter Collin from piscator@macatawa.org Fri Oct 19 19:12:38 2001 f9K0Cb419385 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:12:37 -0500 Subject: Re:Varnish/Jelly Tony, If it would make my varnish last longer, I'm on it! I understand you =can buy atomic waste pretty reasonbly from the country formerly known as=the USSR! (Don't get your shorts in a knot, it's just a joke.) Brian Tony, If it would make my varnish last = country formerly known as the USSR! (Don't get your shorts in a knot, it's = joke.) Brian from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Oct 19 19:32:37 2001 f9K0Wa420048 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:32:36 -0500 Subject: Re: reel seats In a message dated 10/19/2001 1:15:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, flyfish@defnet.com writes: Tony, very nice seats. I'm impressed. Dave L. http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Oct 19 19:36:38 2001 f9K0ab420291 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:36:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Binder Purchase Check out Goldenwitch.com They sell a very good binder. Dave L. http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from channer@frontier.net Fri Oct 19 20:34:34 2001 f9K1YX421349 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:34:34 -0500 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:38:18 -0600 Subject: Re: Varnish /Jelly Tony(and everyone else);Varathane 900 is the only varnish I have had this problem with, a litlethinner gently floated on the top of the dip tube or partial can, orsmall bottle's worth for wraps works fine, but Varathane doesn't seem toco-operate, it just turns to jelly anyway. O biggie, I get about 3/4 ofthe can's worth before it goes bad on me, so i don't mind all that much,I was just curious as to how Don managed to keep the stuff good in adip tube. John Tony Miller wrote: JohnThe way to keep varnish from turning to jelly is to remove the air.i.e. lets say you have a can of varnish, put it in a plastic waterbottle(the kind you by at convenient stores).then squeeze the bottle so the varnish goes to the top, then put thecap back on. The bottle stays squeezed in(as long as it's air tight).It looks funny, but it is like pulling a vacuum.No air = no dry. Try it out, it works. On dip tubes keep them as fullas possible.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from channer@frontier.net Fri Oct 19 20:42:07 2001 f9K1g6421600 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:42:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Varnish/Jelly Tony;Stick to rods and reel seats(very pretty by the way!), stand-up is notyour forte, LOLJohn Tony Miller wrote: We could go one step further and set up an ozonizer controlled by anatomic fusion reactor that is powered by slamming two atoms togetherthus obtaining energy by a controlled implosion. LOL:))Just joking guys, don't take it personal:)) I'm always clowningaround.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from timklein@qwest.net Fri Oct 19 21:22:56 2001 f9K2Mt422264 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:22:55 -0500 Subject: Re: heat gun oven insulation question Bob wrote: Go to Walmart of the local hardware store and buy wrap insulation forductwork. If it weren't so far, I'd give you some. Bought a 30 foot rollto re-do my oven with and I have PLENTY left over! === Bob, Are you talking about the yellow stuff with the foil backing? I bought some of that a while ago to insulate my airgun oven but the stuffgot so darned hot it freaked me out a bit (not to mention the funky smell itgave off). The stuff didn't seem to melt or anything, but the fumes seemedalittle unhealthy and I've used the oven uninsulated since. It was probably an inch and a half to two inches thick and called somethinglike "Foil and Fiberglass Duct Insulation". The package said it was forinsulating heating and air conditioning ducts. Also, what did you use to seal it up? I tried duct tape (seemed reasonableat the time) which turned into a sticky gummy worthless mess half waythrough my first baking. (now that I think about it, it's entirely possible the stench was from theduct tape! ) ---Tim from martinrjensen@home.com Fri Oct 19 21:36:35 2001 f9K2aY422672 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:36:34 -0500 femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:36:34 -0700 "'Rodmakers'" Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights I have found that Tippy rods, i.e. rods that are stiff in the butt buthave a fast tip are less forgiving as regards to over lining them. A rodthat has flex all the way down to the handle (or near the handle) canhandle a greater variety of lines. Typically this will equate to fastrods vs slow rods. This makes sense if you think about it as a tippy rodis almost like two rod actions in one rod. Nice soft tip coupled with astout butt section. You over line the tippy rod and you will fullyoverpower the tip before you get anywhere near the maximum of the buttsection. A slow rod on the other hand usually will have a more uniformaction. It spreads the weight over the length of the rod. So...I guess by how you read this, we might be in disagreementor...maybe not. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights On the FFF casting instructors list (very similar in form to ourRodmakers), we have discussed this very topic several times. Here aresome snippets from what certified casting instructors say, if anyonecares.... (snip) This is a very interesting topic. Everyone seams to have adifferent opinion as to how to line a rod, and most peoples opinions arecorrect. They are almost always based on ones personal experience andexperimentation. I believe the confusion comes from the fact that all rods and alllines are not created equal. Troy makes some great points aboutoverlining stiffer rods as apposed to softer rods. I believe that thisis the essence of understanding how to line a rod. The stiffer the rod, the more forgiving it will be to overlining,but the less forgiving it will be to underlining. Conversely, thesofter the rod, the more forgiving it will be to underlining, and theless forgiving itwill be to overlining. Eddie Robinson (snip) I think this boils down to whether you are talking about carrying alength of line or shooting. In my mind, there is no doubt that I wouldrather drop a line weight if I want to try to carry 60 or more feet inthe air with an average rod. If I use an ultra stiff rod like a BoronXTR or one of the Abels, then I don't drop a weight. I think those rodswere designed from the start with the expectation that they will becasting long lines as a routine. The downside is that they requireconcentration and a very short, sharp stroke with impeccable timing tocast less than 40 feet. It's a lot like work. Down here along the Texascoast, it is very common practice to buy a very stiff rod (RPL+ is apopular series), and then go up one or even two line weights. This isgenerally done to fight the wind, not go for maximum distance. Most fishwill be caught within 60 feet. And with a big shoot, it will stretch to100'+ even when overlined. But try to carry 70' of WF9F line on an RPL+790 and you've got your hands full! I can't tell you how many outfits I've sold this way(overlining stiffrods), working weekends at a local fly shop. That's what the customerswant. Then I get those same people back in the store a month later,wanting to know why it's impossible to carry over 50 feet of linewithout tailing loops. And these are decent casters. It's all a matterof loading. If you want to carry the long line, it generally works bestto either use the intended line wt for a modern stiff rod, or drop aweight for a medium to medium-fast rod. I take them out on the lawn andshow that with the right line weight, the rod is capable of carryingconsiderably more line in the air. Dermon was right on his comment that velocity is actually a moresignificant parameter than mass in the energy equation. The velocityterm gets squared, while the mass term is to the first power. This meansthat if you can increase speed by 20% (keeping mass the same), it willimpact the energy more than if you keep the speed the same and increasethe mass by 20%. Now we really have two things to think about, theacceleration part of the cast (where the line is gaining its energy),and the deceleration part, where the loop is progressing forward. Extramass hurts you when you are trying to gain energy, but helps you onceyou have got it. Think in terms of VWs and Mac trucks...... Someinsightful people have tried to use firearms ballistic tables as anexample of how retained energy at a given distance is greater with aheavier bullet. And they are right. It does work that way with bullets.But the correlation is not as straightforward with a flyrod and line. Wecan't simply "add more gunpowder", because doing so often results in thedreaded inverted loop. It is not just the velocity we are concernedabout, but also the shape of the loop, which changes with technique androd top path. The ballistic coefficient of a bullet is constant (becauseit is assumed that a bullet's shape stays the same no matter how muchpowder you put behind it),but not so on our loops!! Troy (snip) So we are saying about the same as what has been related here. A decentcaster can accomodate a line weight off "perfect", by adjusting hisstroke and application of power. "Line weights" are concrete andabstract at the same time. You can measure the weight of the first 30'of line, and put it in a class. But saying that a rod is a #4, or #5,or #6 -- that is an arbitrary decision made by the person holding therod in his hand. TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: False Advertising in line weights I just put a line on my eighth rod. Taped the guides on and gave it acast- couldn't wait to give it a try. I must discuss a trend that I find incommercial rods and published tapers - There are many instances where I find that a rod will cast a line sizeheavier than it is supposed to. I have a couple commercially built rodsthat cast one line size larger than what is written on the blank, and ihave built several rods that cast one line size heavier better than whatthey are supposed to. In case you are wondering, my rods all mic closeenough to the prescribed taper that I do not believe it is my planingthat is at fault. There is one taper that I have built 4 rods from - andthey all prefer a larger line size, so I won't blame it on theproperties of the cane from a particular culm. I have a commerciallybuilt rod that is supposed to be a 4, and is really a 6! Now, I have discussed this with a fellow rodbuilder, and he suggestedthat it may simply be a matter of taste, that I prefer a rod to loadmore than other people. I'm not so sure. It is often that I tryseveral line sizes on different rods, and find that it will comfortablycast 3 different weights. Therefore, if a rod will accept a 5, 6, and 7weight, one may safely label that taper as a 6 weight. Sinceunderlining will generally afford you greater casting distance, can thatbe the explanation? That most folks opt for underlining a rod to castfarther? Personally, because of the weight issue, I'd just as soon puta 5 on a 5 weight, not a 4. Could I hear some of your comments? Peter Collin from martinrjensen@home.com Fri Oct 19 22:02:14 2001 f9K32D423182 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:02:13 -0500 femail30.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:02:14 -0700 Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights - update I'm thinking that at some point the weight of the rod comes into playand that at 9 ft you have so much mass involved that you would be waypast a 3 wt. Are your rods fairly tippy? I would think that this mightwork on a long rod. That way most of the action would be in the tipsection only. I could see that working on a 9 ft 3 wt. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Martin, I have an 8'6" 4wt, a 9' 5wt, a 9' 3wt., etc. Why do you notthink this is possible?Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Martin Jensen wrote: I think you are asking for a lot. Once you get to a certain size you aredealing with the weight of the bamboo. I personally don't think you could build a 8.5 ft 5 wt. rod. I mean I don';t think it is possible. Maybe an 8 ft'er. Now you could build a 8.5 ft'er and cast a 5 wt on it but I wouldn't call it a 5 wt just because of that. Now graphite you could do 10 ft 5 wt easy, but we don't want to do that. Martin Jensen from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Fri Oct 19 22:06:53 2001 f9K36q423468 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:06:52 -0500 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:57:24 -0500 "'Rodmakers'" Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights Yep, I'd say in disagreement. A rod that is soft to me (for its lineweight) will absolutely throw a tailing loop on me if I overline it. A rodthat is very stiff for its line weight will resist overload better ifoverlined. If we agree that a rod will shorten due to loading, and moreload means more shortening, then the path of the rod tip dips belowhorizontal (concave path) and results in a tailing loop (completegeneralization, but usually true in my experience). One can avoid this ifhe dumps the rod tip at the stop and forces the loop to initiate in thelower plane that the line was pulled through. This takes conscious effort,and is fudging a stroke to make a bad situation sorta work out. Our comments (FFFCCI) are in reference to graphite rods, and if you havecast the rods I mentioned (Winston's Boron XTR, Abels, and Sage RPL+),thereis nothing at all soft about the tip. They are what I call aggressiveprogressive. They are stiff right to the tip top. So if you underlinethem, they won't load sufficiently to let the rod do any of the work. Ifyou overline them, they just progressively load deeper toward the cork.These rods were made to cast full flylines of the designated weight. Theyare not for the gentle of spirit. They fulfill a specific function verywell. I betcha Nunley would like them, if you got him out behind the barnand nobody was watching... [:)] But I will not argue, if you like overlining a softer rod more than a stiffrod, that's what you should do. Whatever works...... (I am not beingsarcastic, I mean it). This topic is very much a matter of personalpreference, and nobody can ever be proven right or wrong, as Eddie said.Experiment until you have a valid opinion for yourself, and then use whatyou like. Do not be a sheep when it comes to lining rods! Best regards --TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights I have found that Tippy rods, i.e. rods that are stiff in the butt buthave a fast tip are less forgiving as regards to over lining them. A rodthat has flex all the way down to the handle (or near the handle) canhandle a greater variety of lines. Typically this will equate to fastrods vs slow rods. This makes sense if you think about it as a tippy rodis almost like two rod actions in one rod. Nice soft tip coupled with astout butt section. You over line the tippy rod and you will fullyoverpower the tip before you get anywhere near the maximum of the buttsection. A slow rod on the other hand usually will have a more uniformaction. It spreads the weight over the length of the rod. So...I guess by how you read this, we might be in disagreementor...maybe not. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights On the FFF casting instructors list (very similar in form to ourRodmakers), we have discussed this very topic several times. Here aresome snippets from what certified casting instructors say, if anyonecares.... (snip) This is a very interesting topic. Everyone seams to have adifferent opinion as to how to line a rod, and most peoples opinions arecorrect. They are almost always based on ones personal experience andexperimentation. I believe the confusion comes from the fact that all rods and alllines are not created equal. Troy makes some great points aboutoverlining stiffer rods as apposed to softer rods. I believe that thisis the essence of understanding how to line a rod. The stiffer the rod, the more forgiving it will be to overlining,but the less forgiving it will be to underlining. Conversely, thesofter the rod, the more forgiving it will be to underlining, and theless forgiving itwill be to overlining. Eddie Robinson (snip) I think this boils down to whether you are talking about carrying alength of line or shooting. In my mind, there is no doubt that I wouldrather drop a line weight if I want to try to carry 60 or more feet inthe air with an average rod. If I use an ultra stiff rod like a BoronXTR or one of the Abels, then I don't drop a weight. I think those rodswere designed from the start with the expectation that they will becasting long lines as a routine. The downside is that they requireconcentration and a very short, sharp stroke with impeccable timing tocast less than 40 feet. It's a lot like work. Down here along the Texascoast, it is very common practice to buy a very stiff rod (RPL+ is apopular series), and then go up one or even two line weights. This isgenerally done to fight the wind, not go for maximum distance. Most fishwill be caught within 60 feet. And with a big shoot, it will stretch to100'+ even when overlined. But try to carry 70' of WF9F line on an RPL+790 and you've got your hands full! I can't tell you how many outfits I've sold this way(overlining stiffrods), working weekends at a local fly shop. That's what the customerswant. Then I get those same people back in the store a month later,wanting to know why it's impossible to carry over 50 feet of linewithout tailing loops. And these are decent casters. It's all a matterof loading. If you want to carry the long line, it generally works bestto either use the intended line wt for a modern stiff rod, or drop aweight for a medium to medium-fast rod. I take them out on the lawn andshow that with the right line weight, the rod is capable of carryingconsiderably more line in the air. Dermon was right on his comment that velocity is actually a moresignificant parameter than mass in the energy equation. The velocityterm gets squared, while the mass term is to the first power. This meansthat if you can increase speed by 20% (keeping mass the same), it willimpact the energy more than if you keep the speed the same and increasethe mass by 20%. Now we really have two things to think about, theacceleration part of the cast (where the line is gaining its energy),and the deceleration part, where the loop is progressing forward. Extramass hurts you when you are trying to gain energy, but helps you onceyou have got it. Think in terms of VWs and Mac trucks...... Someinsightful people have tried to use firearms ballistic tables as anexample of how retained energy at a given distance is greater with aheavier bullet. And they are right. It does work that way with bullets.But the correlation is not as straightforward with a flyrod and line. Wecan't simply "add more gunpowder", because doing so often results in thedreaded inverted loop. It is not just the velocity we are concernedabout, but also the shape of the loop, which changes with technique androd top path. The ballistic coefficient of a bullet is constant (becauseit is assumed that a bullet's shape stays the same no matter how muchpowder you put behind it),but not so on our loops!! Troy (snip) So we are saying about the same as what has been related here. A decentcaster can accomodate a line weight off "perfect", by adjusting hisstroke and application of power. "Line weights" are concrete andabstract at the same time. You can measure the weight of the first 30'of line, and put it in a class. But saying that a rod is a #4, or #5,or #6 -- that is an arbitrary decision made by the person holding therod in his hand. TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: False Advertising in line weights I just put a line on my eighth rod. Taped the guides on and gave it acast- couldn't wait to give it a try. I must discuss a trend that I find incommercial rods and published tapers - There are many instances where I find that a rod will cast a line sizeheavier than it is supposed to. I have a couple commercially built rodsthat cast one line size larger than what is written on the blank, and ihave built several rods that cast one line size heavier better than whatthey are supposed to. In case you are wondering, my rods all mic closeenough to the prescribed taper that I do not believe it is my planingthat is at fault. There is one taper that I have built 4 rods from - andthey all prefer a larger line size, so I won't blame it on theproperties of the cane from a particular culm. I have a commerciallybuilt rod that is supposed to be a 4, and is really a 6! Now, I have discussed this with a fellow rodbuilder, and he suggestedthat it may simply be a matter of taste, that I prefer a rod to loadmore than other people. I'm not so sure. It is often that I tryseveral line sizes on different rods, and find that it will comfortablycast 3 different weights. Therefore, if a rod will accept a 5, 6, and 7weight, one may safely label that taper as a 6 weight. Sinceunderlining will generally afford you greater casting distance, can thatbe the explanation? That most folks opt for underlining a rod to castfarther? Personally, because of the weight issue, I'd just as soon puta 5 on a 5 weight, not a 4. Could I hear some of your comments? Peter Collin from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 22:10:18 2001 f9K3AH423827 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:10:17 -0500 Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:10:17 -0700 Subject: Re: heat gun oven insulation pretty much resolved FILETIME=[BEDC4850:01C15914] Got a lot of great responses to my recent post. I got some adhesive backed foil duct insulation at Lowes. It worked fine,and stays on. I still get a 50 degree temp drop, but can add another layerof insulation. It works well provided the strips are flipped halfwaythrough. The other issue is that I was not prepared for a temperature drop. Took BobNunley's advice to pour on the heat for a bit at the beginning. The real issue is that I was being too timid- you want it cured, you get ithot. Even at high temperatures 375-425, bamboo does not go from raw canetoburned crisp in a heartbeat. Check it often, and you can pull it out when itis the desired color. And yes, you can tell by the smell. Jeff from martinrjensen@home.com Fri Oct 19 22:29:19 2001 f9K3TI424415 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:29:18 -0500 femail30.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:29:18 -0700 "'Rodmakers'" Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights I have never cast the rods you mentioned. If you have a fast action rodthat is a fairly progressive action, than I would expect it to handlesimilar to what I would expect from a slow rod. I have not found thesage rods "tippy" at all. The ones I was thinking about were a Winston 9ft 4 wt from the early 90's and a rod that had similar action though Iforget who made it. The Winston was definitely tippy and you pretty muchcould only cast the 4 or maybe 5wf line on it. (I hated it and sold it fish) a couple Fenwick Traditional series graphite's dating from the mid80's I believe. These were really slow rods. On the rod weighted 4 wt.,I found that I could cast (depending on conditions) anywhere from a 4 toa 6 wt effectively, and quite comfortably. Now I didn't start out thinking that slow rods would cast more lineweights. I thought just the opposite. It was just after casting theFenwick's in different conditions over, and underlining them (actually,I rarely underlined them or any rod. More on this later) that I came todecide that maybe they did in fact cast a better line for me.Now my basic feeling is that the majority of rods (mainly graphite rods,as I haven't actually cast many other peoples bamboo rods that much)cast better with one line size higher than the stated rod size. So rightoff the bat you know that I like the feeling of line on the rods I cast. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights Yep, I'd say in disagreement. A rod that is soft to me (for its lineweight) will absolutely throw a tailing loop on me if I overline it. Arod that is very stiff for its line weight will resist overload betterif overlined. If we agree that a rod will shorten due to loading, andmore load means more shortening, then the path of the rod tip dips belowhorizontal (concave path) and results in a tailing loop (completegeneralization, but usually true in my experience). One can avoid thisif he dumps the rod tip at the stop and forces the loop to initiate inthe lower plane that the line was pulled through. This takes consciouseffort, and is fudging a stroke to make a bad situation sorta work out. Our comments (FFFCCI) are in reference to graphite rods, and if you havecast the rods I mentioned (Winston's Boron XTR, Abels, and Sage RPL+),there is nothing at all soft about the tip. They are what I callaggressive progressive. They are stiff right to the tip top. So if youunderline them, they won't load sufficiently to let the rod do any ofthe work. If you overline them, they just progressively load deepertoward the cork. These rods were made to cast full flylines of thedesignated weight. They are not for the gentle of spirit. They fulfilla specific function very well. I betcha Nunley would like them, if yougot him out behind the barn and nobody was watching... [:)] But I will not argue, if you like overlining a softer rod more than astiff rod, that's what you should do. Whatever works...... (I am notbeing sarcastic, I mean it). This topic is very much a matter ofpersonal preference, and nobody can ever be proven right or wrong, asEddie said. Experiment until you have a valid opinion for yourself, andthen use what you like. Do not be a sheep when it comes to lining rods!Best regards -- TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights I have found that Tippy rods, i.e. rods that are stiff in the butt buthave a fast tip are less forgiving as regards to over lining them. A rodthat has flex all the way down to the handle (or near the handle) canhandle a greater variety of lines. Typically this will equate to fastrods vs slow rods. This makes sense if you think about it as a tippy rodis almost like two rod actions in one rod. Nice soft tip coupled with astout butt section. You over line the tippy rod and you will fullyoverpower the tip before you get anywhere near the maximum of the buttsection. A slow rod on the other hand usually will have a more uniformaction. It spreads the weight over the length of the rod. So...I guess by how you read this, we might be in disagreementor...maybe not. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights On the FFF casting instructors list (very similar in form to ourRodmakers), we have discussed this very topic several times. Here aresome snippets from what certified casting instructors say, if anyonecares.... (snip) This is a very interesting topic. Everyone seams to have adifferent opinion as to how to line a rod, and most peoples opinions arecorrect. They are almost always based on ones personal experience andexperimentation. I believe the confusion comes from the fact that all rods and alllines are not created equal. Troy makes some great points aboutoverlining stiffer rods as apposed to softer rods. I believe that thisis the essence of understanding how to line a rod. The stiffer the rod, the more forgiving it will be to overlining,but the less forgiving it will be to underlining. Conversely, thesofter the rod, the more forgiving it will be to underlining, and theless forgiving itwill be to overlining. Eddie Robinson (snip) I think this boils down to whether you are talking about carrying alength of line or shooting. In my mind, there is no doubt that I wouldrather drop a line weight if I want to try to carry 60 or more feet inthe air with an average rod. If I use an ultra stiff rod like a BoronXTR or one of the Abels, then I don't drop a weight. I think those rodswere designed from the start with the expectation that they will becasting long lines as a routine. The downside is that they requireconcentration and a very short, sharp stroke with impeccable timing tocast less than 40 feet. It's a lot like work. Down here along the Texascoast, it is very common practice to buy a very stiff rod (RPL+ is apopular series), and then go up one or even two line weights. This isgenerally done to fight the wind, not go for maximum distance. Most fishwill be caught within 60 feet. And with a big shoot, it will stretch to100'+ even when overlined. But try to carry 70' of WF9F line on an RPL+790 and you've got your hands full! I can't tell you how many outfits I've sold this way(overlining stiffrods), working weekends at a local fly shop. That's what the customerswant. Then I get those same people back in the store a month later,wanting to know why it's impossible to carry over 50 feet of linewithout tailing loops. And these are decent casters. It's all a matterof loading. If you want to carry the long line, it generally works bestto either use the intended line wt for a modern stiff rod, or drop aweight for a medium to medium-fast rod. I take them out on the lawn andshow that with the right line weight, the rod is capable of carryingconsiderably more line in the air. Dermon was right on his comment that velocity is actually a moresignificant parameter than mass in the energy equation. The velocity term gets squared, while the mass term is to the first power. This meansthat if you can increase speed by 20% (keeping mass the same), it willimpact the energy more than if you keep the speed the same and increasethe mass by 20%. Now we really have two things to think about, theacceleration part of the cast (where the line is gaining its energy),and the deceleration part, where the loop is progressing forward. Extramass hurts you when you are trying to gain energy, but helps you onceyou have got it. Think in terms of VWs and Mac trucks...... Someinsightful people have tried to use firearms ballistic tables as anexample of how retained energy at a given distance is greater with aheavier bullet. And they are right. It does work that way with bullets.But the correlation is not as straightforward with a flyrod and line. Wecan't simply "add more gunpowder", because doing so often results in thedreaded inverted loop. It is not just the velocity we are concernedabout, but also the shape of the loop, which changes with technique androd top path. The ballistic coefficient of a bullet is constant (becauseit is assumed that a bullet's shape stays the same no matter how muchpowder you put behind it),but not so on our loops!! Troy (snip) So we are saying about the same as what has been related here. A decentcaster can accomodate a line weight off "perfect", by adjusting hisstroke and application of power. "Line weights" are concrete andabstract at the same time. You can measure the weight of the first 30'of line, and put it in a class. But saying that a rod is a #4, or #5,or #6 -- that is an arbitrary decision made by the person holding therod in his hand. TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: False Advertising in line weights I just put a line on my eighth rod. Taped the guides on and gave it acast- couldn't wait to give it a try. I must discuss a trend that I find incommercial rods and published tapers - There are many instances where I find that a rod will cast a line sizeheavier than it is supposed to. I have a couple commercially built rodsthat cast one line size larger than what is written on the blank, and ihave built several rods that cast one line size heavier better than whatthey are supposed to. In case you are wondering, my rods all mic closeenough to the prescribed taper that I do not believe it is my planingthat is at fault. There is one taper that I have built 4 rods from - andthey all prefer a larger line size, so I won't blame it on theproperties of the cane from a particular culm. I have a commerciallybuilt rod that is supposed to be a 4, and is really a 6! Now, I have discussed this with a fellow rodbuilder, and he suggestedthat it may simply be a matter of taste, that I prefer a rod to loadmore than other people. I'm not so sure. It is often that I tryseveral line sizes on different rods, and find that it will comfortablycast 3 different weights. Therefore, if a rod will accept a 5, 6, and 7weight, one may safely label that taper as a 6 weight. Sinceunderlining will generally afford you greater casting distance, can thatbe the explanation? That most folks opt for underlining a rod to castfarther? Personally, because of the weight issue, I'd just as soon puta 5 on a 5 weight, not a 4. Could I hear some of your comments? Peter Collin from TBOWDEN@halcyon.com Fri Oct 19 22:41:00 2001 f9K3ex424949 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:40:59 -0500 Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update In general, I like rods 8' and shorter. Before I started building rods, myfavorite for stream fishing was an 8-1/2-5wt. Granger Victory. I've nevermeasured it, but here's a taper that was posted a while back for a GrangerAristocrat 8-1/2' 5 wt. BTW, Ray Gould's 8'-7 weight (which I think is based on the same taper asyour 8-1/2 footer) is one heck of a rod. I use the one I built forsaltwater beach fishing. With the light tip, a 12" cutthroat puts a nicebend in the rod. Yet it's also got enough power in the swelled butt sectionto punch out a #4 fly into the wind, and handle five pound coho salmon.Took me a while to get the timing down for casting it. This winter I'mplanning on building a 5-wt version. I ran into the same problem with thetip - .065-.010=.055, which seems a bit small. I'm going to try .062 forthe tip & see what happens. Here's the taper for the Aristocrat Station Diameter0 0.0625 0.07310 0.09215 0.10920 0.12225 0.13730 0.15035 0.16840 0.18745 0.20650 0.22055 0.23260 0.24065 0.24570 0.26475 0.28380 0.29085 0.30690 0.31895 0.371100 0.38105 0.38 from caneman@clnk.com Fri Oct 19 22:55:15 2001 f9K3tF425602 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:55:15 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:20:07 -0500 Subject: Fw: heat gun oven insulation question Tim,Yep, that's exactly the stuff. The smell the first time was probably thebinder in the fiberglas... it smells kinda rough the first couple of timesyou heat the oven up, but after that you won't smell it again. Also, theymake a silver foil backed tape for taping this type of insulation... ducttape is great for a lot of things, but I bet that heat did make it a mess. later,Bob Bob, Are you talking about the yellow stuff with the foil backing? I bought some of that a while ago to insulate my airgun oven but the stuffgot so darned hot it freaked me out a bit (not to mention the funky smell it gave off). The stuff didn't seem to melt or anything, but the fumesseemed a little unhealthy and I've used the oven uninsulated since. It was probably an inch and a half to two inches thick and called something like "Foil and Fiberglass Duct Insulation". The package said it was forinsulating heating and air conditioning ducts. Also, what did you use to seal it up? I tried duct tape (seemed reasonableat the time) which turned into a sticky gummy worthless mess half waythrough my first baking. (now that I think about it, it's entirely possible the stench was from theduct tape! ) ---Tim from piscator@macatawa.org Fri Oct 19 23:40:35 2001 f9K4eY427281 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:40:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Varnish /Jelly I had most of a gallon of Sutherland Wells spar varnish turn to jelly on melast spring, even though I had sprayed bloxygen into the can permanufacturers directions. I strained, thinned and re-packaged into asmaller container (actually two) but lost most of it. I think some of theformulations are just more prone to problems than others. And I wouldfurther postulate that it's directly related to price! Brian from martinrjensen@home.com Fri Oct 19 23:50:18 2001 f9K4oI427780 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:50:18 -0500 femail27.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:50:18 -0700 Subject: RE: Varnish /Jelly I had some Varmor R10 go bad on me. It took several years though. I hadit in a tube. I called the manufacture and they said that what happenedwas that the solvents had simply evaporated. They told me that I couldadd some thinner to it. I did, but it just didn't seem the same so Itossed it. Now Varmor, I consider expensive, about $60.00 bucks agallon. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Varnish /Jelly I had most of a gallon of Sutherland Wells spar varnish turn to jelly onme last spring, even though I had sprayed bloxygen into the can permanufacturers directions. I strained, thinned and re-packaged into asmaller container (actually two) but lost most of it. I think some oftheformulations are just more prone to problems than others. And I wouldfurther postulate that it's directly related to price! Brian from martinrjensen@home.com Fri Oct 19 23:54:56 2001 f9K4st428117 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:54:55 -0500 femail36.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:54:55 -0700 "'Rodmakers'" Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights - update I would love to get my hands on a taper for the 8.5 ft Victory. I tookthe taper on one and I would like to compare it. I had to makeadjustments for the varnish and I would be interested to see how close Iam. I took the taper and made a 2 piece rod and really like it though,it throws a WF6 or 7 a bit better than the 5 for me. I doubt if mytaper is that close to the original though...for one thing, I made noallowances for the ferrules. I just eliminated the third one and placedone in the middle. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update In general, I like rods 8' and shorter. Before I started building rods,my favorite for stream fishing was an 8-1/2-5wt. Granger Victory. I'venever measured it, but here's a taper that was posted a while back for aGranger Aristocrat 8-1/2' 5 wt. BTW, Ray Gould's 8'-7 weight (which I think is based on the same taperas your 8-1/2 footer) is one heck of a rod. I use the one I built forsaltwater beach fishing. With the light tip, a 12" cutthroat puts a nicebend in the rod. Yet it's also got enough power in the swelled buttsection to punch out a #4 fly into the wind, and handle five pound cohosalmon. Took me a while to get the timing down for casting it. Thiswinter I'm planning on building a 5-wt version. I ran into the sameproblem with the tip - .065-.010=.055, which seems a bit small. I'mgoing to try .062 for the tip & see what happens. Here's the taper for the Aristocrat Station Diameter0 0.0625 0.07310 0.09215 0.10920 0.12225 0.13730 0.15035 0.16840 0.18745 0.20650 0.22055 0.23260 0.24065 0.24570 0.26475 0.28380 0.29085 0.30690 0.31895 0.371100 0.38105 0.38 from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Oct 20 02:33:08 2001 f9K7X6403004 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 02:33:07 - Subject: Re: Varnish /Jelly Terry may have a better idea here but some finishes and glues will cure upon opening as soon as you open them so there isn't much you can doexcept buy the smallest amount and use it all up. Sikaflex is a very good example if you've ever used it.If the finish can be protected from air and kept useful Tony's below works well but you can also fill the can with marbles which I find pretty clean to do. When the tin's finished add turps to it and clean the marbles ready You can also transfer the finish into concertina type photographic chemical containers.Lastly, if the finish is prone to skinning on the surface, turn the tin upside down so the skin forms on what is the "bottom" of the tin when it's in use, then when you open the tin for use right way up again the skin on the bottom holds the finish close to the top if you know what I mean. If I'm wrong here or you think I've missed something worth mentioning Terry please advise and a big wet girlie kiss from us all on the list for your time [:-)] Tony At 07:00 PM 10/19/01 -0400, Tony Miller wrote: JohnThe way to keep varnish from turning to jelly is to remove the air.i.e. lets say you have a can of varnish, put it in a plastic water bottle(the kind you by at convenient stores).then squeeze the bottle so the varnish goes to the top, then put the cap back on. The bottle stays squeezed in(as long as it's air tight). It looks funny, but it is like pulling a vacuum.No air = no dry. Try it out, it works. On dip tubes keep them as full as possible.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from channer@frontier.net Sat Oct 20 07:16:02 2001 f9KCG1405511 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 07:16:02 - for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 06:19:51 - Subject: J.C.Boegeman lathe I have a J.C. Boegeman lathe(the one advertised in The Planing Form andthe same one Anglers Workshop sells under a different name) that I don'tneed or have room for any more. Anyone interested contact me off list. John from flytyr@southshore.com Sat Oct 20 07:47:39 2001 f9KClc405913 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 07:47:38 - f9KCleZ02529 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 07:47:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Varnish /Jelly Have had two cans of Helmsman do the same thing in spite of all precautions.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Brian Creek wrote: I had most of a gallon of Sutherland Wells spar varnish turn to jelly on melast spring, even though I had sprayed bloxygen into the can permanufacturers directions. I strained, thinned and re-packaged into asmaller container (actually two) but lost most of it. I think some of theformulations are just more prone to problems than others. And I wouldfurther postulate that it's directly related to price! Brian from rmoon@ida.net Sat Oct 20 08:08:25 2001 f9KD8O406311 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 08:08:24 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: Varnish /Jelly --------------080005040306010307070508 I used to be in the business, but so long ago, i have forgotten more than i knew. However, i think you will find that jelling varnish is a write off. it has started to polymerize, and that is irreversible.. You may try to strain, but it is a losing battle once that irreveible process has started. Sinning on the other hand cam be reversed, and can be controlled with margles, bloxygen, compressible containers, even repackaging. Sinning is an evaporation of solvents, and air oxidization. No rocks being cast, but I think that the formulation is the primary culprit. If joe's varnish does jell, don't use it again, and make a loud protestation to the maker. Ralph Tony Spezio wrote: Have had two cans of Helmsman do the same thing in spite of allprecautions.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Brian Creek wrote: I had most of a gallon of Sutherland Wells spar varnish turn to jelly on melast spring, even though I had sprayed bloxygen into the can permanufacturers directions. I strained, thinned and re-packaged into asmaller container (actually two) but lost most of it. I think some of theformulations are just more prone to problems than others. And I wouldfurther postulate that it's directly related to price! Brian . --------------080005040306010307070508 than try tostrain, but it is a losing battle once that irreveible process has started. margles,bloxygen, compressible containers, even repackaging. Sinning is anevaporation use it again, and make a loud protestation to the maker. Ralph Tony Spezio wrote: Have had two cans of Helmsman do the same thing in spite ofall precautions.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.comBrian Creek wrote: I had most of a gallon of Sutherland Wells spar varnish turn tojelly on melast spring, even though I had sprayed bloxygen into the canpermanufacturers directions. I strained, thinned and re-packaged intoasmaller container (actually two) but lost most of it. I think some oftheformulations are just more prone to problems than others. And Iwouldfurther postulate that it's directly related toprice!Brian . --------------080005040306010307070508-- from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sat Oct 20 09:25:09 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9KEP8406995 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:25:09 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:25:12 -0500 Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights - update this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Peter - I feel as you do about longer rods. These are measurements I took from arodI own, a Phillipson PowerPakt 8.5' 5wt piece, and it's the sweetest casting5wt 81/2ft rod I've used. It's a varnished rod, not impregnated like laterPhillipson's, so was probably made in the early 1950's. Not everyone likesthis style of taper but it's got a good pedigree - Phillipson used Granger'stapers with some modifications. This was measured over varnish of averagethickness, so I'd deduct about 0.004" for the actual bamboo dimension. Inoted when my measurement wasn't exactly at the usual 5" interval fortaperspecs, due to ferrules and the like, but a little extrapolation will get youclose enough. It has a distinctly swelled butt, though I think you could usea more moderate swell and get a very similar-casting rod. At least, that'swhat happened when I used the taper. It has lots of reserve power and flexesenough in the butt to roll cast like a dream, but when you cast gently thetop third of the rod gives you a very delicate and accurate cast. Havefun.... Barry Phillipson PowerPakt 8'6" 5wt 3 piece In. from Tip Taper Notes 0 0.080 bottom of tiptop5 0.097 10 0.120 15 0.134 20 0.149 25 0.160 30 0.163 35 0.163 At ferrule base 32 1/2 0.16340 0.188 At ferrule base 2 1/2 0.18045 0.211 50 0.223 55 0.241 60 0.241 65 0.241 At ferrule base 32 1/2 0.25070 0.250 At ferrule base 2.75 0.27575 0.282 80 0.294 85 0.307 90 0.324 95 0.375 100 0.375 105 0.375 102" long -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update I just went out and cast the same rod I mentioned in my earlier post. Thismorning I tried it with a 5 and a 6. I just tried it with a 7 and an 8. Ihave come to the conclusion that the rod is a 7/8. Now, I am rather peevedabout this, because I did not want a 7/8, I wanted the 5 weight I set out tobuild. The taper was listed as a 5 weight in the book I got it from. Itdoes not cast a 5 very well at all. You can not feel the rod loading behindyou on the backcast. My blank came out nicely, cosmetically and so forth,but I don't even feel like finishing it anymore. I guess the moral to thestory is that you are taking somebody's taper dimensions completely on faithunless you get to cast a similar rod beforehand. Maybe someday I willattend a rodmaker's gathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the waythe rod casts with a 5 weight. I simply can not believe that personal tasteis my problem with the taper. Which leads to another question - does anybody have a good taper for an 81/2 foot 5 weight? That is what this rod was supposed to be. I know manybamboo guys like short rods, but I am not one of them. I can get over alittle extra weight for the better distance and line control a long rodgives. I was intrigued by John Geirach's writing how his favorite rod is an8 1/2 foot 5 weight Mike Clark. I heard a rumor that Clark's rod may be abit of a noodle. But I was heartened when I built an 8 1/2 foot rod for abuddy this spring. It was a Ray Gould 6 weight taper. When I got done, itturned out to be a 6/7, but I really loved the way it cast. I was temptedto built another rod based on the same taper, but to shave a fewthousandthsoff and try for a 5. Problem is, the tip measurement is only about .065inches on the original taper. I don't know if I would trust a tip anysmaller than that. Any suggestions/anecdotes? Peter Collin 0DocumentEmail P=eter – I=feel asyou do about longer rods. These are measurements I took from a rod I =own, aPhillipson PowerPakt 8.5’ 5wt piece, and it’s the sweetest =casting 5wt 81/2ftrod I’ve used. It’s a varnished rod, not impregnated like =later Phillipson’s,so was probably made in the early 1950’s. Not everyone likes this =style oftaper but it’s got a good pedigree – Phillipson used =Granger’s tapers with somemodifications. This was measured over varnish of average thickness, so =I’ddeduct about 0.004” for the actual bamboo dimension. I noted when=mymeasurement wasn’t exactly at the usual 5” interval for =taper specs, due toferrules and the like, but a little extrapolation will get you close =enough. Ithas a distinctly swelled butt, though I think you could use a more =moderateswell and get a very similar- casting rod. At least, that’s what =happened when Iused the taper. It has lots of reserve power and flexes enough in the =butt toroll cast like a dream, but when you cast gently the top third of the =rod givesyou a very delicate and accurate cast. Have =fun…. B=arry PhillipsonPowerPakt 8'6" 5wt 3 piece In. p; Notes p; bottom of tiptop p; p; p; p; p; p; p; At ferrule base 32 1/2 0.163 p; At ferrule base 2 1/2 0.180 p; p; p; p; 0.250 0.275 p; p; p; p; p; p; p; 102" long -----OriginalMessage-----From: Peter A. Collin Sent: Friday, October =19, 20013:51 PM Subject: Re: False =Advertising inline weights - update I just This an Now, I amrather peeved about this, because I did not want a 7/8, I wanted the 5 =weight I I got it feel the cosmetically and so forth, but I don't even feel like finishing it somebody'staper dimensions completely on faith unless you get to cast a similar = Maybe someday I will attend a rodmaker's gathering, and defy anybody to =tell me believethat personal taste is my problem with the taper. Whichleads to another question - does anybody have a good taper for an 8 1/2 =foot 5 many control a long rumor that built an weight loved the taper, the tip don't know suggestions/anecdotes? PeterCollin from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sat Oct 20 09:36:33 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9KEaW407079 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:36:32 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:36:35 -0500 "RodMakers List (E-mail)" Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights - update this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Martin - Are you serious? The taper I sent a few minutes ago is a genuine 8.5' 5wt.Of course like any bamboo rod (or any good graphite rod for that matter)youcan go up or down a size or two, but it works truly well with a 5wt (doubletaper floating) in my hands. Loads nicely for short casts, handles longcasts without feeling overloaded. Probably just a difference in our casting styles, which may be as much amatter of built-in body mechanics as our taste in casting. You hated thatWinston, but they're my favorite kind of graphite rod, if I can't have abamboo. But that 8.5" Phillipson is one sweet rod to me. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights - update I think you are asking for a lot. Once you get to a certain size you aredealing with the weight of the bamboo. I personally don't think you couldbuild a 8.5 ft 5 wt. rod. I mean I don';t think it is possible. Maybe an 8ft'er. Now you could build a 8.5 ft'er and cast a 5 wt on it but I wouldn'tcall it a 5 wt just because of that. Now graphite you could do 10 ft 5 wteasy, but we don't want to do that. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - updateI just went out and cast the same rod I mentioned in my earlier post. Thismorning I tried it with a 5 and a 6. I just tried it with a 7 and an 8. Ihave come to the conclusion that the rod is a 7/8. Now, I am rather peevedabout this, because I did not want a 7/8, I wanted the 5 weight I set out tobuild. The taper was listed as a 5 weight in the book I got it from. Itdoes not cast a 5 very well at all. You can not feel the rod loading behindyou on the backcast. My blank came out nicely, cosmetically and so forth,but I don't even feel like finishing it anymore. I guess the moral to thestory is that you are taking somebody's taper dimensions completely on faithunless you get to cast a similar rod beforehand. Maybe someday I willattend a rodmaker's gathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the waythe rod casts with a 5 weight. I simply can not believe that personal tasteis my problem with the taper. Which leads to another question - does anybody have a good taper for an 81/2 foot 5 weight? That is what this rod was supposed to be. I know manybamboo guys like short rods, but I am not one of them. I can get over alittle extra weight for the better distance and line control a long rodgives. I was intrigued by John Geirach's writing how his favorite rod is an8 1/2 foot 5 weight Mike Clark. I heard a rumor that Clark's rod may be abit of a noodle. But I was heartened when I built an 8 1/2 foot rod for abuddy this spring. It was a Ray Gould 6 weight taper. When I got done, itturned out to be a 6/7, but I really loved the way it cast. I was temptedto built another rod based on the same taper, but to shave a fewthousandthsoff and try for a 5. Problem is, the tip measurement is only about .065inches on the original taper. I don't know if I would trust a tip anysmaller than that. Any suggestions/anecdotes? Peter Collin Message 0DocumentEmail M=artin – A=re youserious? The taper I sent a few minutes ago is a genuine 8.5’ =5wt. Of courselike any bamboo rod (or any good graphite rod for that matter) you can =go up ordown a size or two, but it works truly well with a 5wt (double taper =floating)in my hands. Loads nicely for short casts, handles long casts without =feelingoverloaded. P=robably justa difference in our casting styles, which may be as much a matter of =built-inbody mechanics as our taste in casting. You hated that Winston, but =they’re myfavorite kind of graphite rod, if I can’t have a bamboo. But that =8.5”Phillipson is one sweet rod to me. B=arry -----OriginalMessage-----From: Martin Jensen = Sent: Friday, October =19, 20015:16 PM pcollin@rochester.rr.com;'Rodmakers'Subject: RE: False =Advertising inline weights - update I think you are =asking weight ofthe bamboo. I personally don't think you could build a 8.5 ft 5 wt. =rod. I meanI don';t think it is possible. Maybe an 8 ft'er. Now you could build a =8.5ft'er and cast a 5 wt on it but I wouldn't call it a 5 wt just because =of that.Now graphite you could do 10 ft 5 wt easy, but we don't want to do =that. MartinJensen -----Original Message-----From:owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Friday, October =19, 2001 1:51PM Subject: Re: False =Advertising inline weights - update I just went out and cast the same =rod I and a conclusion because I did taper was a 5 very but I the storyis that you are taking somebody's taper dimensions completely on faith =unless you arodmaker's gathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the way the =rod taste is myproblem with the taper. Which leads to another question - =does what this but I am the better Geirach's writing how his favorite rod is an 8 1/2 foot 5 weight Mike But I was heartened when I built an 8 1/2 foot rod for a buddy this it temptedto built another rod based on the same taper, but to shave a few =thousandths about .065 any Peter Collin from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Sat Oct 20 11:04:33 2001 f9KG4X409286 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:04:33 -0500 Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:04:28 -0700 Subject: what type of heat gun? FILETIME=[E573C4E0:01C15980] I went the cheap route. A furnace flue hung horizontally on chains.With =a sears professional heat gun stuck in one end. The heat gun end is too =hot, the other end is too cold, but the middle is just right. I flip the =strips every couple minutes, and take them out when I get that hot resin =smell with just a hint of smoke. They have just started to change color =at that point, and come out a bit darker than untreated cane. They are =probably on the light side of most heat treatment methods, but it seems =to work. Before treating, bound strips will retain a slight bend when =flexed, after heat they snap right into a straight line. I believe that =my best test is to flex the cane. If it does not feel right, it goes =back in for another 10 minutes until I get the right feel. I have heard nothing but great things about the double tube oven, but I =have little capability for working with sheet metal. OK, I hate the = Jeff I went the cheap route. A furnace flue hung horizontally on = sears professional heat gun stuck in one end. The heat gun end is too = other end is too cold, but the middle is just right. I flip the strips = couple minutes, and take them out when I get that hot resin smell with = hint of smoke. They have just started to change color at that point, and = out a bit darker than untreated cane. They are probably on the light = most heat treatment methods, but it seems to work. Before treating, = will retain a slight bend when flexed, after heat they snap right into a = straight line. I believe that my best test is to flex the cane. If it = feel right, it goes back in for another 10 minutes until I get the right = feel. I have heard nothing but great things about the double tube oven, = have little capability for working with sheet metal. OK, I hate the = Jeff from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Oct 20 12:35:30 2001 f9KHZT412279 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:35:29 - Subject: Dennis Higham Please contact me off list.Bret from BambooRods@aol.com Sat Oct 20 13:02:22 2001 f9KI2M413124 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:02:22 - for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:02:19 - Subject: Skip Shorb Contact Info Needed Can anyone provide me with contact information for Skip Shorb. TIA from TBOWDEN@halcyon.com Sat Oct 20 13:10:03 2001 f9KIA2413555 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:10:03 - Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights - update Martin, here's the taper on my Victory. 8-1/2' 3 piece model GV8642. Thesemeasurements are over the original varnish - I'd estimate .002 or .003. Imeasured the rod assembled. Hope you can figure out my notes around theferrules. I use a DT5 & find it casts great up to 50-60'. At least for me. Station Diameter0 0.0625 0.07210 0.08715 0.10920 0.12325 0.13530 0.14533 0.149 Top of male ferrule37 0.175 1- 1/2" below female ferrule 40 0.18545 0.20850 0.21955 0.22960 0.23865 0.241 2" above male ferrule70 0.256 Just below female ferrule on Butt75 0.27180 0.28785 0.30690 0.350 Above Grip from stoltz10@home.com Sat Oct 20 13:43:29 2001 f9KIhT416270 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:43:29 - femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: heatgun oven question I just finished a Neunemann style oven and gave it a test run. I have =to use it out doors so I can get the clearance to put the rod sections =in. After an hour the oven only got up to 300 degrees. My heat gun has =a temp setting of 1000 and I had it running full boar. I'm wondering if =insulation would help. Any help would be appreciated. Tim I just finished a Neunemann style oven = appreciated. Tim from piscator@macatawa.org Sat Oct 20 13:51:49 2001 f9KIph417003 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:51:43 -0500 Subject: Re: what type of heat gun? Grizzly sale catalog just came. They have two heat guns on sale for =under $40. No affiliation or further knowledge. They have a web site =you could go check out. Brian out. Brian from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat Oct 20 14:41:04 2001 f9KJf3421980 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:41:03 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Martin, No, the rod is not tip action, the 9' 3wt is a medium, progressive action, see http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/Tapers/hexrod- archive.html#montagueLeonard also made a Catskill 9' 4wt that is a nice smooth progressive action, and Hiram Hawes regularly made rods in that length/line weight, as well. I'm looking for a 10' 4wt.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Martin Jensen wrote: I'm thinking that at some point the weight of the rod comes into playand that at 9 ft you have so much mass involved that you would be waypast a 3 wt. Are your rods fairly tippy? I would think that this mightwork on a long rod. That way most of the action would be in the tipsection only. I could see that working on a 9 ft 3 wt. Martin Jensen from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Oct 20 15:56:20 2001 f9KKuK424815 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:56:20 - Subject: Don Jaekle only Sanding block is on its way.Bret from Dennishigham@cs.com Sat Oct 20 16:55:20 2001 f9KLtJ428057 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:55:20 - Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Reed,"I'm looking for a 10' 4wt, Curry, Would you settle for a pre-WWI 10', 5wt Leonard? It's freshly restored w/ a bizillion 3 wrap intermediates in chinese red, absolutely mint, everything full length and..........it's not for sale, but I will bring it to Grayrock next year and Chris can bring the jar with your soul in it and maybe we can trade [:-)] Dennis Troy..I'll have this with me at SRG. We can line it up with one of Olaf's silk lines and you can try it out but you won't like it. This is a Reed Curry orgasmic experience the rest of us mortals just don't get it. It's S-L-O-W-W- W...progressive but s-l-o-w-w-w..:-) from teekay35@interlynx.net Sat Oct 20 18:03:24 2001 f9KN3N403372 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:03:23 - Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update I use to own a 9' 0", #4 Leonard. Had a nice easy slow action for thosedays when you don't want to work too hard. The rod was an early model withred intermediate wraps every inch or so for its entire length. I was toldthat it was probably an early Tournament model. I think that I may stillhave the rod spec's on file. from lkoeser@ceva.net Sat Oct 20 19:45:36 2001 f9L0jZ407541 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:45:35 - Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:44:56 -0400 Subject: Re: heat gun oven insulation question I'm using a 4" paper backed fiberglass insulation (glass next to oven) wiredin place with a an aluminum foil type over held in place with large paperbinder clips. This facilitates removal so that the oven can be expanded.It's a vertical design by Frank Neunemann. The temperature of the gun is notsufficient to melt glass. Lee ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: heat gun oven insulation question Bob wrote: Go to Walmart of the local hardware store and buy wrap insulation forductwork. If it weren't so far, I'd give you some. Bought a 30 foot rollto re-do my oven with and I have PLENTY left over! === Bob, Are you talking about the yellow stuff with the foil backing? I bought some of that a while ago to insulate my airgun oven but the stuffgot so darned hot it freaked me out a bit (not to mention the funky smell it gave off). The stuff didn't seem to melt or anything, but the fumesseemed a little unhealthy and I've used the oven uninsulated since. It was probably an inch and a half to two inches thick and called something like "Foil and Fiberglass Duct Insulation". The package said it was forinsulating heating and air conditioning ducts. Also, what did you use to seal it up? I tried duct tape (seemed reasonableat the time) which turned into a sticky gummy worthless mess half waythrough my first baking. (now that I think about it, it's entirely possible the stench was from theduct tape! ) ---Tim from rbrand@mmcable.com Sat Oct 20 20:08:32 2001 f9L18V407987 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:08:31 - Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:08:35 -0500 Subject: Rattan Grips Hello AllDoes anyone know of an outlet for Rattan? Thinking I might try a Rattangrip. TIA Rod Brand from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Sat Oct 20 20:09:30 2001 f9L19T408186 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:09:29 -0500 Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:09:24 -0700 Subject: Re: an odd question for a slow saturday night FILETIME=[05D3D120:01C159CD] I am currently making two short rods for my sister and her boyfriend. Theyfish small streams in the GA mountains. I would like to complement theserods with a light reelseat of cork and light slip rings. Trouble is, I cannot locate any sources of really nice rings. Picked up a set of strubles- ifI had a lathe I would cut them down, but I don't. Way too coarse. The look Iwant would be somewhat like the Orvis Caenis for sale on ebay. Does anyonehave a source for fine slip rings and cork checks? Or is there anyone on thelist that sells them? If you have some for sale, please contact me off listwith prices ... and, uh, these need to be ready for Christmas so it needs tohappen soon. Thank you, Jeff from jojo@ipa.net Sat Oct 20 20:18:42 2001 f9L1If408600 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:18:41 - for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:18:44 - Subject: Re: Rattan Grips Rodney, I know Demarest carries it, and I've seen some other places, just can'trecall them at the moment. M-D Hello AllDoes anyone know of an outlet for Rattan? Thinking I might try a Rattangrip. TIA Rod Brand from beadman@mac.com Sat Oct 20 20:21:58 2001 f9L1Lu408846 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:21:57 - Subject: Re: Rattan Grips At 8:12 PM -0500 , 10/20/01, Rodney Brand wrote about Rattan Grips Hello AllDoes anyone know of an outlet for Rattan? Thinking I might try a Rattangrip. My wife makes a lot of baskets and gets her rattan and other supplies from Claude from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Sat Oct 20 20:43:56 2001 f9L1ht409610 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:43:55 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:34:24 -0500 Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights - update Dennis -- Sounds great to me. I don't mind slow, so long as it is reasonablyprogressive. It's the paras that I gotta come to appreciate.... I'll keepan open mind, and do my best to enjoy them all! Will definitely enjoylaunching some silk. May even have to buy one there if I like them wellenough... T minus three days to takeoff..... : ) -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Reed,"I'm looking for a 10' 4wt, Curry, Would you settle for a pre-WWI 10', 5wt Leonard? It's freshly restored w/ a bizillion 3 wrap intermediates in chinese red, absolutely mint, everything full length and..........it's not for sale, but I will bring it to Grayrock next year and Chris can bring the jar with your soul in it and maybe we can trade [:-)] Dennis Troy..I'll have this with me at SRG. We can line it up with one of Olaf's silk lines and you can try it out but you won't like it. This is a ReedCurry orgasmic experience the rest of us mortals just don't get it. It's S-L-O-W-W- W...progressive but s-l-o-w-w-w..:-) from thogan@rochester.rr.com Sat Oct 20 20:48:59 2001 f9L1mv409932 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:48:57 - f9L1mvh17167 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:48:58 - Subject: Hollow Built Has anyone done any hollow built rods, or removed significant insidematerial to lose weight?I am curious as to opinions on how the glue up went, and any noticablecasting differences?Taylor from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sat Oct 20 21:46:48 2001 f9L2km411111 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:46:48 - Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Hey Pete, How about a Granger Aristocrat 8.5 ft for 4/5? I think you cast the rodonce! It is on the Rodmakers Web site taper database. -Doug Easton At 04:50 PM 10/19/01 -0400, Peter A. Collin wrote: ArialI just went out andcast the same rod I mentioned in my earlier post. This morning I triedit with a 5 and a 6. I just tried it with a 7 and an 8. I have come tothe conclusion that the rod is a 7/8. Now, I am rather peeved aboutthis, because I did not want a 7/8, I wanted the 5 weight I set out tobuild. The taper was listed as a 5 weight in the book I got it from. Itdoes not cast a 5 very well at all. You can not feel the rod loadingbehind you on the backcast. My blank came out nicely, cosmetically andso forth, but I don't even feel like finishing it anymore. I guess themoral to the story is that you are taking somebody's taper dimensionscompletely on faith unless you get to cast a similar rod beforehand. Maybe someday I will attend a rodmaker's gathering, and defy anybody totell me he likes the way the rod casts with a 5 weight. I simply can notbelieve that personal taste is my problem with the taper. ArialWhich leads to anotherquestion- does anybody have a good taper for an 8 1/2 foot 5 weight? That iswhat this rod was supposed to be. I know many bamboo guys like shortrods, but I am not one of them. I can get over a little extra weight forthe better distance and line control a long rod gives. I was intrigued Mike Clark. I heard a rumor that Clark's rod may be a bit of a noodle. But I was heartened when I built an 8 1/2 foot rod for a buddy thisspring. It was a Ray Gould 6 weight taper. When I got done, it turnedout to be a 6/7, but I really loved the way it cast. I was tempted tobuilt another rod based on the same taper, but to shave a few thousandthsoff and try for a 5. Problem is, the tip measurement is only about .065inches on the original taper. I don't know if I would trust a tip anysmaller than that. Any suggestions/anecdotes? ArialPeter Collin from bob@downandacross.com Sat Oct 20 22:01:39 2001 f9L31d411522 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:01:39 -0500 "rodmakers@mail. wustL. edu" Subject: RE: an odd question for a slow saturday night Hi Jeff:Corl spacers are very nice, and there are many good choices for hardware. Every reel seat I out on a sale rod is from Dave LeClair. He makes meanything I need, and I like the very fine wedding band rings and ropeknurling he uses for my seats. DAve even blackens them for me (with resultsway better than I ever seem to manage). I have always used his seats, and Istick to the suppliers that I know to be a pleasure to deal with. I will usehis seats until he stops making them, which I hope is never.This does not mean that there are not other choices, but I stumbled acrossDave first... I have recently seen very nice work from Bob Venneri and Tony Larson. I justgot two of Bob's upslide/downslide seats for demo rods. I think they willhelp customers decide what they like in a seat configuration. They areexcellent. Tony Larson has just announced that he has sliding band sets for$10 a pop, and I use his ferrules with excellent results. He is a top notchmachinist, and I bet his bands are very nice. I have some of his bands, butI do not know if they are the same style. Leclair123@aol.com, rvenneri@ulster.net, and pumpkin10@prodigy.net aretheirrespective e-mails. All three make sliding band sets, and will do them toyour specs. You won't go wrong with any of them, and if you do, I will go asfar as to say, sell them to me and I will take them off your hands until youfind what you like. (Just don't buy them in sets of 10, okay!)Best regards,Bob M. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: an odd question for a slow saturday night I am currently making two short rods for my sister and her boyfriend. Theyfish small streams in the GA mountains. I would like to complement theserods with a light reelseat of cork and light slip rings. Trouble is, I cannot locate any sources of really nice rings. Picked up a set of strubles- ifI had a lathe I would cut them down, but I don't. Way too coarse. The look Iwant would be somewhat like the Orvis Caenis for sale on ebay. Does anyonehave a source for fine slip rings and cork checks? Or is there anyone on thelist that sells them? If you have some for sale, please contact me off listwith prices ... and, uh, these need to be ready for Christmas so it needs tohappen soon. Thank you, Jeff from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sat Oct 20 22:09:30 2001 f9L39T411865 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:09:29 - Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Reed, How about a 9'6" FE Thomas Special #4 Wt(made for Dame and Stoddard)? Iwill bring that one too. -Doug At 05:55 PM 10/20/01 EDT, Dennishigham@cs.com wrote: Reed,"I'm looking for a 10' 4wt, Curry, Would you settle for a pre-WWI 10', 5wt Leonard? It's freshly restored w/ a bizillion 3 wrap intermediates in chinese red, absolutely mint, everything full length and..........it's not for sale, but I will bring it to Grayrock next year and Chris can bring the jar with your soul in it and maybe we can trade [:-)] Dennis Troy..I'll have this with me at SRG. We can line it up with one of Olaf's silk lines and you can try it out but you won't like it. This is a Reed Curry orgasmic experience the rest of us mortals just don't get it. It's S-L-O-W-W- W...progressive but s-l-o-w-w-w..:-) from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Oct 20 22:16:42 2001 f9L3Gf412283 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:16:42 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:13:00 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: what type of heat gun? --------------5367B37DA4AE88EBDE3D2CC9 Jeff,I use a modified version of Frank Neunamans vertical heat gun oven withaWagner heat gun from Wallyworld and have nothing but praise for it!Shawn Jeff Schaeffer wrote: I went the cheap route. A furnace flue hung horizontally on chains.With asearsprofessional heat gun stuck in one end. The heat gun end is too hot, theother endis too cold, but the middle is just right. I flip the strips every coupleminutes,and take them out when I get that hot resin smell with just a hint ofsmoke. Theyhave just started to change color at that point, and come out a bit darkerthanuntreated cane. They are probably on the light side of most heattreatment methods,but it seems to work. Before treating, bound strips will retain a slight bendwhenflexed, after heat they snap right into a straight line. I believe that mybesttest is to flex the cane. If it does not feel right, it goes back in for another10minutes until I get the right feel. I have heard nothing but great thingsabout thedouble tube oven, but I have little capability for working with sheet metal.OK, Ihate the stuff. Jeff --------------5367B37DA4AE88EBDE3D2CC9 Jeff, FrankNeunamans vertical heat gun oven with a Wagner heat gun from Wallyworldand have nothing but praise for it! Shawn Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Iwent the cheap route. A furnace flue hung horizontally on chains.With asears professional heat gun stuck in one end. The heat gun end is too hot,the other end is too cold, but the middle is just right. I flip the stripsevery couple minutes, and take them out when I get that hot resin smellwith just a hint of smoke. They have just started to change color at thatpoint, and come out a bit darker than untreated cane. They are probablyon the light side of most heat treatment methods, but it seems to work.Before treating, bound strips will retain a slight bend when flexed, afterheat they snap right into a straight line. I believe that my best testis to flex the cane. If it does not feel right, it goes back in for another have heard nothing but great things about the double tube oven, but I havelittle capability for working with sheet metal. OK, I hate the --------------5367B37DA4AE88EBDE3D2CC9-- from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Oct 20 22:20:22 2001 f9L3KL412608 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:20:21 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:16:52 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Varnish /Jelly --------------BB0EBD64B335B02D357043FA Ted,awesome I never thought of that one!! You can preserve your varnishAND cleanyour house with enviro friendly products at the same time!!ShawnTed wrote: A year or two back someone on the list recommended using the inert,heavier thanair, gas formed by mixing vinegar and baking soda. Mix the two in thebottom of alarge jar. "Pour" the gas (its invisible) into the top of your dip tube orvarnishcan where it will displace the oxygen. I think the gas is carbon monoxide. Worksgood for me. --------------BB0EBD64B335B02D357043FA Ted, thatone!! You can preserve your varnish AND clean your house with enviro friendlyproducts at the same time!! ShawnTed wrote: Ayear or two back someone on the list recommended using the inert, heavier the top of your dip tube or varnish can where it will displace the me. --------------BB0EBD64B335B02D357043FA-- from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Oct 20 22:27:01 2001 f9L3R1412937 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:27:01 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:23:32 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Rattan Grips Rodney,try your local chair repair places or craft stores (that's where I getmine)Shawn Rodney Brand wrote: Hello AllDoes anyone know of an outlet for Rattan? Thinking I might try a Rattangrip. TIA Rod Brand from bob@downandacross.com Sat Oct 20 22:51:03 2001 f9L3p2413602 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:51:02 - Oct 2001 23:48:08 -0400 Subject: Intermediate wraps I finished cutting off the in between wraps today, and I must report thatthe technique Paul posted worked fantastic. I did not lose a single wrap. Afew notes on what seemed to work for me...1. I put 45 intermediate wraps on the 6'6" rod I did. I used a 1" spacingand spaced them out evenly between the guides. I have done 7 and 3 wrapintermediates before, and the 1" spacing was easier to do than 7 wraps, andlooks better that the 3 wrap style. I like the even look, and strangelythere are no big gaps anywhere. I know this is not the traditional way, butit worked. I simply used a ruler, shifted one way or the other to center,and I marked off the wraps at the inch marks with a pencil. Took just underan hour for the whole shabang (guides were done prior to this). Most guideshad four or five wraps between. I also did one inch spaced intermediates from the stripper to the signature. Green guide wraps with navy blueintermediates. Looks nice, IMHO.2. Use two to three coats of ManOWar spar, thinned slightly. I used threequickly over the last day and a half.3. I applied the spar with a Stim-U-Dent toothpick. Because they are smalland the ends are tapered, they work great. I also used them tonight on thepreviously unvarnished guide wraps. No bubbles and even coats. I will usethem from now on for all my wraps. They are 150 or 200 a pack. $1.59 atTarget. They work way better than the $5-8 brushes I bought.4. When cutting the extra thread off, don't make your first cut at theintermediate. Cut the thread in between the varnished wraps you want tosave. Work the thread around the blank towards the now varnishedintermediate. Lay your scalpel down at the point you want to cut. Apply thesmallest pressure and pull the thread upwards to make the cut. Even if youover did it with the varnish, you can easily cut the thread neatly. If youtry to use the scalpel to "saw" off the thread at the point you want, itwill leave a really nasty edge.5. I made the mistake of doing the wrapping over the already varnishedblank. This works when you are just doing guides, but not with thistechnique. The thread tension left fine marks in the varnish betweenintermediates. Maybe it will work if the varnish is cured for a few months,but not after a week or two in the drying cabinet. I think this technique is one of the most useful I have come across. If youwatch the Winston Waters video, you will see Glenn Brackett wrapping likecrazy down the rod using his ingenious wrapper (I believe this was JW'sinspiration). I bet he is doing all the guide wraps in this style. I cannotfigure out why else he would do this. Could one do a whole section worth ofwraps with only one cut and tie off point? Anyone familiar with the video? Best regards and tightly burnished wraps to you all, Bob Maulucci218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716- 867-0523 cellularhttp://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com from rodmaker@nvbell.net Sat Oct 20 23:21:54 2001 f9L4Lj414192 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:21:45 - Subject: SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 50px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt;MARGIN-LEFT: 50px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no- repeat;FONT-FAMILY: Abadi MT Condensed Light} SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE from seanight@nvbell.net Sat Oct 20 23:24:30 2001 f9L4OS414361 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:24:28 - Subject: SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE from JNL123141@msn.com Sun Oct 21 00:11:02 2001 f9L5B1415308 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:11:01 - Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:10:52 -0700 Subject: Re: Varnish /Jelly FILETIME=[C1ACF270:01C159EE] Lately, Ive been storing my helmsman upside down and it seems to work pre=tty good.... ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Varnish /Jelly I used to be in the business, but so long ago, i have forgotten more th=an i knew. However, i think you will find that jelling varnish is a writ=e off. it has started to polymerize, and that is irreversible.. You may=try to strain, but it is a losing battle once that irreveible process ha=s started. Sinning on the other hand cam be reversed, and can be control=led with margles, bloxygen, compressible containers, even repackaging. Si=nning is an evaporation of solvents, and air oxidization. No rocks being=cast, but I think that the formulation is the primary culprit. If joe's=varnish does jell, don't use it again, and make a loud protestation to t=he maker. Tony Spezio wrote: Have had two cans of Helmsman do the same thing in spite of all precautio=ns.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.comBrian Creek wrote:I had most of a gallon of Sutherland Wells spar varnish turn to jelly on =melast spring, even though I had sprayed bloxygen into the can permanufac=turers directions. I strained, thinned and re-packaged into asmaller con=tainer (actually two) but lost most of it. I think some of theformulati=ons are just more prone to problems than others. And I wouldfurther post=ulate that it's directly related to price!Brian\. Lately, Ivebe= ----- Original Message ----- From: Ralph W. MoonSent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 9:09A= flytyr@southshore.com Cc:rodmakers@wugate.wustl.e=du Subject: Re: Varnish/Jel= the other hand cam be reversed, and can be controlled with margles, blox=ygen, compressible containers, even repackaging. Sinning is an evaporatio= s jell, don't use it again, and make a loud protestation to the maker.Ralph Tony Spezio wrote: Have had twocans=of Helmsman do the same thing in spite of all precautions.Tony F=lyTyr@southshore.comBrian Creek wrote:I had most of a gallon of SutherlandWel=ls spar varnish turn to jelly on melast spring, even though I had spr=ayed bloxygen into the can permanufacturers directions. I strained, =thinned and re-packaged into asmaller container (actually two) but lo=st most of it. I think some of theformulations are just more prone =to problems than others. And I wouldfurther postulate that it's dire=ctly related to price!Brian=. from JNL123141@msn.com Sun Oct 21 00:39:41 2001 f9L5de415910 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:39:40 - Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:39:39 -0700 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: Snake wear: FILETIME=[C7016680:01C159F2] I think the only way you can shape or bend the nickle-titanium wire and d=efeat the memory is to freeze it first and bend it quickly while its stil=l cold. MY orthodontist (George Carcao, Toronto), used it at one point d=uring my time in braces. I doubt if REC will tell you how they bend it, =color it or taper the guide feet. I think the only way you can shape or bend the nickle-titanium wire a= from jojo@ipa.net Sun Oct 21 01:40:39 2001 f9L6ec416808 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 01:40:38 -0500 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 02:40:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Snake wear I believe that it takes a very cold spray, such as ethylene chloride, to =be able to bend the wire. This must occur very quickly, as John said. I =think orthodontists have a specific spray for doing this, and is =probably the best bet to obtain satisfactory results. The color, I'm =guessing, is probably imparted by a physical vapor deposition process, =AKA sputtering, and the taper of the feet looks as though the feet are =struck in some kind of hydraulic press. There is an abundance of sources = how to get your health insurance to pay for it, otherwise you can't =afford it. ;o) M-D I think the only way you can shape or bend the nickle-titanium wire =and defeat the memory is to freeze it first and bend it quickly while =its still cold. MY orthodontist (George Carcao, Toronto), used it at =one point during my time in braces. I doubt if REC will tell you how =they bend it, color it or taper the guide feet. I believe that it takes a very = such as ethylene chloride, to be able to bend the wire. This must occur = quickly, as John said. I think orthodontists have a specific spray for = this, and is probably the best bet to obtain satisfactory results. The = I'm guessing, is probably imparted by a physical vapor deposition = in some kind of hydraulic press. There is an abundance of sources for = most being medical which means you'll have to figure out how to get your = ;o) M-D John = I think the only way you can shape or bend the nickle-titanium = from seanight@nvbell.net Sun Oct 21 05:42:13 2001 f9LAgC419652 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 05:42:12 - Subject: SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE SET RODMAKERS MAILPOSTPONE from channer@frontier.net Sun Oct 21 07:10:28 2001 f9LCAR420413 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 07:10:28 - for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:14:26 - Subject: J.C.Boegeman lathe Sorry guys, it has found a home. Thanks to all who were interested.John from rcolo@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 21 07:21:43 2001 f9LCLg420743 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 07:21:42 - Subject: RE: Hollow Built Hi Taylor, I have been fishing a hollowbuilt 71/2' #4/5 for two years now. It's aquad fashioned after the perfectionist taper. It is a joy to cast butthere is one feature with a hollowbuilt rod that is very distinctive,especially if you carry the construction into the tip. What I noticedearly on was that if you did not "cast" this rod you would end up drivingthe line into the water. What I'm saying is there is no room for a lazystyle. It was explained to me that because of the reduced weight in thetip there is less inertia to allow the tip to follow through, therefore ifyou get lazy on your forward cast the rod stops abruptly the loop reallycloses down and drives the line into the water. Kinda makes sense. Notsure how this particular taper maybe accentuating the results or not. Whata wonderful rod. Most of my other rods have been in the closet. Also havea 10' Hardy Hollowbuilt and it's amazing how much of a relatively dry flyaction it has for a DT5 (Don't tell Reed) it has. Again the same reasonmay apply. Rich Colo [Original Message]From: taylor hogan Date: 10/20/2001 9:46:04 PM Subject: Hollow Built Has anyone done any hollow built rods, or removed significant insidematerial to lose weight?I am curious as to opinions on how the glue up went, and any noticablecasting differences?Taylor --- RICHARD J COLO--- rcolo@ix.netcom.com--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. from BambooRods@aol.com Sun Oct 21 09:51:36 2001 f9LEpZ422595 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:51:35 - for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:51:30 - Subject: Contact Info for Skip Shorb Could someone please provide me with a way to contact Skip Shorb. Thanksin advance.Doug from stoltz10@home.com Sun Oct 21 10:45:36 2001 f9LFjZ423538 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:45:35 - femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: heat gun oven question I just finished completing my Neuneman style oven. I use a heat gun =that has a high setting of 1000 degrees. I tried out my oven and could =only get I up to 300 degrees after running the gun full boar for 45 min. =I was trying it outdoors because I will need the clearance to get the =rod sections in. I was wondering if insulation might help. Any =thoughts? Thanks, Tim I just finished completing my Neuneman= tried out my oven and could only get I up to 300 degrees after running = Thanks,Tim from piscator@macatawa.org Sun Oct 21 11:21:01 2001 f9LGL0424173 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 11:21:00 - Subject: Re: Hollow Built So it casts like a graphite (shudder) rod? Brian from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Oct 21 11:21:24 2001 f9LGLN424237 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 11:21:23 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:17:55 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: heat gun oven question --------------233A4668B67002AA77C19220 Tim,I found the insulation brought up my max temp., cut down the time thatittook to come up to equilibrium, and kept the temp a little more constantwhen workingoutside. Also I have a cap I put on the exhaust stack while heating up theoven.Shawn Tim Stoltz wrote: I just finished completing my Neuneman style oven. I use a heat gun thathas ahigh setting of 1000 degrees. I tried out my oven and could only get I up to300degrees after running the gun full boar for 45 min. I was trying it outdoorsbecause I will need the clearance to get the rod sections in. I waswondering ifinsulation might help. Any thoughts? Thanks, Tim --------------233A4668B67002AA77C19220 Tim, broughtup my max temp., cut down the time that it took to come up to equilibrium,and kept the temp a little more constant when working outside. Also I havea cap I put on the exhaust stack while heating up the oven. ShawnTim Stoltz wrote: I could only get I up to 300 degrees after running the gun full boar for Tim --------------233A4668B67002AA77C19220-- from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Sun Oct 21 12:16:04 2001 f9LHG3425326 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:16:03 -0500 Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:16:07 PDT Subject: Re: Why the snake guide question Don, do you remember what you used to glue up the rodwith? Bill Walters--- Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys, I built a rod in 1983 that I really liked it for thefishing I do. Madeanother in 1988 and decided to fish it hard to findout what failed andabout how long it took before the failure occurred.I figured that thefishing time should be rated in hours effort ratherthan years. Years lefta lot to interpretation. The rod has been fishing from Northern Alberta forArctic Grayling to the spring creeks west ofLivingstone, Montana. It'sbeen in the pontoon boat in class III white water,been out in freezingconditions, left on the truck dash for weeks at atime, fished throughseveral days of solid rain, been hauled throughswamps, up cliffs and isstored in the truck from spring till fall. It's casttiny dries to # 10heavily weighted nymphs. The only consideration it'sbeen given is notstoring it wet. I went out of my way tointentionally kill this thing assoon as possible. The lines used on the were notcleaned. They werereplaced about every 2 years. An effort was made toabuse the rod. Duringit's life time, it's possible that it has landednear 10,000 trout. The intent was to fish this rod to determine whatwould fail and how longit would take. It has been truly treated like aWally World Special.On a personal level, I mostly fish trout. I usuallyroll cast to get theline airborne, false cast once and present the fly.I've taught castingclinics. Most casts are under 30 feet and most fishaverage 10" althoughthe rod has landed 3 browns over 24" long. The rod had:1] a Zebra slip ring reel seat with Ni-silver ringsand cap finished withlacquer2] A 6" cork handle glued with epoxy3] A rod shaft dip finished with Varathane 900 gloss5 coats rubbed out4] Snake guides were originally Perfection5] Strip guide was Mildrum6] Fitted with Ni-Silver Super Z ferrules What failed and about when:1] The Zebra reel seat lacquer finish lasted about 2weeks till the firsttime it got wet. It peeled off. Replaced the lacquerwith varathane 900.Been OK since.2] The cork handle got depression marks where mythumb and fore fingerpressed in it during casting. The epoxy wouldn'tshrink @ the same rate asthe cork requiring the epoxy glue rings to be fileddown every now and then.3] The varathane finish on the rod shaft lasts about2 starts to crack along the glue lines. When it failsI usually rub it downwith steel wool and slob on some more finish tillwinter and a rebuild.4] The original snakes were hard chromedPerfections. They lasted about3500 hours and got switched out during a recoat.5] The Mildrum Strip guide lasted just fine6] The Ni-silver Super Z ferrules got sloppy andhave been waxed from about3000 hours. Frankly I like them like that. Makes therod easy to take apartand other than waxing 3>5 times/year, they areworking just fine. The cane itself is doing just fine. Other thanrolling the tips to get theset going the other way, there has been no failureother than the one Iinflicted when it tried to land myself. Got adropper caught in my gravelguards and a good sized trout on the dry. The linewrapped around the rodtip a couple of times. When lifting the trout, Ibent the rod tip tofracture. Carpenter glued it back together,over-wrapped failure point andslobbed on some varnish. Was fishing it next week. So the abuse continues - with some luck - thisafternoon. catch ya' Don __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from boyko@peoplepc.com Sun Oct 21 13:06:49 2001 f9LI6m426549 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:06:48 - oemcomputer) (4.4.186.48) -0700 Subject: oven planns Getting to the point of starting to think about building my oven. What =plans are out there, and any recommendations boyko@peoplepc.com Getting to the point of starting to = from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 21 13:13:01 2001 f9LID0426964 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:13:00 - for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:13:01 -0400 Subject: Re: oven plans You can go to the tips section on the makers page and there are some = also Bret R. from the list makes some really nice ovensTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html You can go to the tips section on the = and there are some plans. = Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 21 13:46:43 2001 f9LIkg428112 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:46:42 - for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:46:40 - Subject: Ferrule fit Hi, on average?Thanks, Terry from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 21 14:31:05 2001 f9LJV4429661 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:31:04 - for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:31:07 -0400 Subject: Re:Ferrule fit TerryI just checked a set with digital calipers and they were .0015over the female. The way I see it ,is that you could make thefemale and the male the exact size within .0005 and you should be ok as =long as you can hold the tolerance. Then that would allow for the mostminimum fitting to be done.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Terry they were .0015over the female. The way I see it ,is = could make thefemale and the male the exact size = you should be ok as long as you can hold the tolerance. Then that would = minimum fitting to be =done.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 15:54:35 2001 f9LKsZ401693 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:54:35 - Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:54:34 -0700 Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:54:34 GMT Subject: Re: Hollow Built FILETIME=[96ED24E0:01C15A72] Taylor: them. My personal opinion is that hollow built rods offer little or nothing inthe way of increased performance for general trout fishing. One of the mostimportant reasons that bamboo rods cast the way they do is because of theweight of the cane. It's this inertia of the cane that differentiate's bamboorods from graphite rods. I've been to several gatherings where fellowbuilders have had their latest hollow built rod to cast. To tell you the truth, Icouldn't tell that any of the rods were hollowed, nor could anyone else.When abuilder says, check out this rod, it's hollow built!, what do you think? This is awhole lot different statement then if he had said, check out this rod and tellme what you think. I do believe it's a good marketing scheme but not muchmore. For heavy rods of over 8 1/2 ft in length, you could very well benifit from hollow building. The slight weight savings that you'd g!et from hollowing could make a noticeable difference when casting theseheavy rods for long periods of time. significant inside noticable Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Oct 21 16:13:54 2001 f9LLDr402535 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:13:53 - (authenticated) Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:13:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Hollow Built --------------C39338F4006D69A74121264C Jim Bureau wrote: I haven't built any of the hollow built rods but I'vecast several of them. My personal opinion is that hollowbuilt rods offer little or nothing in the way of increasedperformance for general trout fishing. Jim, I've hollow built a few rods. The big 8.5' 9 weightthat wows everyone at the SRG's is hollow built. Anothermaker built a similar taper without hollow building, and itweighed over an ounce and a half more. That's definitely anoticeable difference. It also seems to affect the actionsomewhat. My rod seems to flex a little more deeply intothe mid section than the solid built rod. But both rodswill throw the heck out of a 9 weight line. I've also built some long (8') trout rods hollow. Doingso usually resulted in a rod for one line weight less, in myopinion. According to Bob Milward's numbers, you have toincrease the flat to flat measurement to keep a similaraction. He has an excellent explanation of how much toincrease things and where. My hollow building experienceswere before Bob's book was published, but I'm anxious tobuild a few rods using his numbers as guidelines. Intheory, we should be able to decrease the weight by about 20- 25% through hollow building, while keeping a similarstress curve.I guess only a little more experimentation will reallytell the tale. Harry--Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------C39338F4006D69A74121264C Jim Bureau wrote: built rods but I've cast several of them. My personal opinion is that hollowbuilt rods offer little or nothing in the way of increased performance Jim, maker built a similar taper without hollow building, and it weighed over But both rods will throw the heck out of a 9 weight line. Doing so usually resulted in a rod for one line weight less, in my According to Bob Milward's numbers, you have to increase the flat to flat experienceswere before Bob's book was published, but I'm anxious to build a few rods decrease the weight by about 20 - 25% through hollow building, while keepinga similar stress curve. really tell the tale. --Harry Boyd --------------C39338F4006D69A74121264C-- from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Oct 21 16:56:54 2001 f9LLur404405 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:56:54 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: Hollow Built I must agree with Jim. The original purpose of hollow-built rods was to be able to produce a longer rod that would still be within the weight restrictions allowed by tournament casting organizations. friend.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Oct 21 17:00:08 2001 f9LM08404786 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:00:08 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Dennis, Please bring it to Grayrock...Chris, Bring the jar.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Dennishigham@cs.com wrote: Reed,"I'm looking for a 10' 4wt, Curry, Would you settle for a pre-WWI 10', 5wt Leonard? It's freshly restored w/a bizillion 3 wrap intermediates in chinese red, absolutely mint, everything full length and..........it's not for sale, but I will bring it to Grayrock next year and Chris can bring the jar with your soul in it and maybe we can trade [:-)] Dennis Troy..I'll have this with me at SRG. We can line it up with one of Olaf's silk lines and you can try it out but you won't like it. This is a Reed Curry orgasmic experience the rest of us mortals just don't get it. It's S-L-O-W-W- W...progressive but s-l-o-w-w-w..:-) -- > from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Oct 21 17:02:11 2001 Received: from serv- f9LM2A405120 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 2001 22:02:18 -0000 Received: from d-88.man.ttlc.net (HELO ttlc.net) -0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Oct 200118:07:00 -0400 From: Reed Curry User-Agent:Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108 dpeaston@wzrd.com, rod Subject: Re: FalseAdvertising in line weights - update References:Content-Type: Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Doug,I'm drooling. Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ Douglas P.Easton wrote: Reed, How about a 9'6" FE Thomas Special #4 Wt(made for Dame and Stoddard)?Iwill bring that one too. -Doug At 05:55 PM 10/20/01 EDT, Dennishigham@cs.com wrote: Reed,"I'm looking for a 10' 4wt, Curry, Would you settle for a pre-WWI 10', 5wt Leonard? It's freshly restored w/a bizillion 3 wrap intermediates in chinese red, absolutely mint, everything full length and..........it's not for sale, but I will bring it to Grayrock next year and Chris can bring the jar with your soul in it and maybe we can trade [:-)] Dennis Troy..I'll have this with me at SRG. We can line it up with one of Olaf's silk lines and you can try it out but you won't like it. This is a Reed Curry orgasmic experience the rest of us mortals just don't get it. It's S-L-O-W-W- W...progressive but s-l-o-w-w-w..:-) -- > from rsgould@cmc.net Sun Oct 21 17:18:33 2001 Received: from , References: Subject: Re: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN HiTaylor and all, I've built a number of hollow rods all 8ft or more in length asthis is where I really think they benefit the caster. Most all of these arefurnished with a graphite insert as described in my book. I am currentlyworking on a special order hollow rod that is eleven (11) ft long x 3pc x 6-7wt and have only gotten as far as roughing out the strips. The trick inhollow rod building is to design the rod in such a way as to prevent glue jointfailure when the rod is fully loaded and the hex tends to flatten out. Ray ----- Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 6:46 PMSubject: Hollow Built Has anyone done any hollow built rods, or removed significant insidematerial to lose weight?I am curious as to opinions on how the glue up went, and any noticablecasting differences?Taylor from channer@frontier.net Sun Oct 21 17:25:14 2001 f9LMPE406475 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:25:14 - for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:29:22 - Subject: Re: Ferrule fit Terry;About a half an hour's worth with 800 and 1200 grit wet/dry! Too darnmuch most of the time, and barely enough when you least expect it.Couple thou I guess, never really bothered to measure it, just grindaway til they fit.John "T. Ackland" wrote: Hi, on average?Thanks, Terry from dnorl@qwest.net Sun Oct 21 18:40:01 2001 f9LNe0408531 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:40:00 - (63.228.46.96) Subject: fly line A friend who is the rep for Cortland gave me a new line to try last =Summer. It does not have a braided core. It has 5 hollow filaments that =are not braided. The line floats like a cork and for the first time in a =plastic line, the tip does not sink. The diameters are the same as the =plastic lines with a braided core. (silk lines are still thinner) A new =coating which is said to be 5 or 6 times more durable than the old =plastic finishes is also being used. I know I can wear out an old 444 =Cortland line in one year given that our season in Minnesota opens on =January 1st. When the cracks appear on an old plastic line it sinks =like a tool box in about a half hour.We'll see how the new coating =works. They will be on the market the first of the year. It will be =called the 555 (what else)Dave = to try last Summer. It does not have a braided core. It has 5 hollow = that are not braided. The line floats like a cork and for the first time = plastic line, the tip does not sink. The diameters are the same as the = lines with a braided core. (silk lines are still thinner) A new coating = said to be 5 or 6 times more durable than the old plastic finishes is = used. I know I can wear out an old 444 Cortland line in one year given = plastic line it sinks like a tool box in about a half hour.We'll see how = coating works. They will be on the market the first of the year. It will = called the 555 (what else)Dave from jojo@ipa.net Sun Oct 21 18:54:46 2001 f9LNsj408973 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:54:45 - for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:54:45 - Subject: Re: fly line Dave, Would you say this line is more supple than the 444, or less? Is it a =good line for bamboo, you think? It isn't one of those horrible neon =colors is it? M-D A friend who is the rep for Cortland gave me a new line to try last =Summer. It does not have a braided core. It has 5 hollow filaments that =are not braided. The line floats like a cork and for the first time in a =plastic line, the tip does not sink. The diameters are the same as the =plastic lines with a braided core. (silk lines are still thinner) A new =coating which is said to be 5 or 6 times more durable than the old =plastic finishes is also being used. I know I can wear out an old 444 =Cortland line in one year given that our season in Minnesota opens on =January 1st. When the cracks appear on an old plastic line it sinks =like a tool box in about a half hour.We'll see how the new coating =works. They will be on the market the first of the year. It will be =called the 555 (what else)Dave Dave, Would you say this line= supple than the 444, or less? Is it a good line for bamboo, you think? = one of those horrible neon colors is it? M-D Dave =Norling line to try last Summer. It does not have a braided core. It has 5 = filaments that are not braided. The line floats like a cork and for = time in a plastic line, the tip does not sink. The diameters are the = the plastic lines with a braided core. (silk lines are still thinner) = coating which is said to be 5 or 6 times more durable than the old = finishes is also being used. I know I can wear out an old 444 Cortland = one year given that our season in Minnesota opens on January = the cracks appear on an old plastic line it sinks like a tool box in = half hour.We'll see how the new coating works. They will be on the = first of the year. It will be called the 555 (what else)Dave from homes-sold@home.com Sun Oct 21 19:02:23 2001 f9M02N409365 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:02:23 - femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:02:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Hollow Built I haven't built any hollow built rods, however how much weight saving =are we talking about and for what purpose? Seems to me the rod would be =weaker unless you put something in the core as Ray says, and if you did =that, what is the overall savings? Not much I would guess at the expense =of weaker glue lines. If you spend most of your time false casting maybe =it would add up. IMHO if you wore a wrist watch on your casting hand and =took it off you would probably have more energy savings. Just my 2 =cents.Don Subject: Re: Hollow Built Taylor: I haven't built any of the hollow built rods but I've cast several of =them. My personal opinion is that hollow built rods offer little or =nothing in the way of increased performance for general trout fishing. =One of the most important reasons that bamboo rods cast the way they do =is because of the weight of the cane. It's this inertia of the cane that =differentiate's bamboo rods from graphite rods. I've been to several =gatherings where fellow builders have had their latest hollow built rod =to cast. To tell you the truth, I couldn't tell that any of the rods =were hollowed, nor could anyone else.When a builder says, check out this =rod, it's hollow built!, what do you think? This is a whole lot =different statement then if he had said, check out this rod and tell me =what you think. I do believe it's a good marketing scheme but not much =more. For heavy rods of over 8 1/2 ft in length, you could very well =benifit from hollow building. The slight weight savings that you'd g! et = from hollowing could make a noticeable difference when casting these = Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------------=-------Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com I haven't built any hollow built rods, = much weight saving are we talking about and for what purpose? Seems to = rod would be weaker unless you put something in the core as Ray says, = did that, what is the overall savings? Not much I would guess at the = weaker glue lines. If you spend most of your time false casting maybe it = add up. IMHO if you wore a wrist watch on your casting hand and took it = would probably have more energy savings. Just my 2 cents.Don From:Jim= rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 8:54 PMSubject: Re: Hollow Built Taylor: them. My personal opinion is that hollow built rods offer little or = the way of increased performance for general trout fishing. One of the = important reasons that bamboo rods cast the way they do is because of = of the cane. It's this inertia of the cane that differentiate's bamboo = graphite rods. I've been to several gatherings where fellow builders = their latest hollow built rod to cast. To tell you the truth, I couldn't = that any of the rods were hollowed, nor could anyone else.When a builder = check out this rod, it's hollow built!, what do you think? This is a = different statement then if he had said, check out this rod and tell me = think. I do believe it's a good marketing scheme but not much more. For = rods of over 8 1/2 ft in length, you could very well benifit from hollow = building. The slight weight savings that you'd g! et from hollowing = noticeable difference when casting these heavy rods for long periods of = Jim Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from dnorl@qwest.net Sun Oct 21 19:04:20 2001 f9M04J409622 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:04:19 - (63.228.46.96) Subject: Re: fly line JoJoThe line is supple like the 444. I've always thought the 444 to be the =best plastic trout line going. the new 555 in sage and one other color. =I have been advised neither colors are gaudy. For the sage color close =your eyes and picture sage brush.Dave-----Original Message-----From: Jojo DeLancier Subject: Re: fly line Dave, Would you say this line is more supple than the 444, or less? Is it =a good line for bamboo, you think? It isn't one of those horrible neon =colors is it? M-D A friend who is the rep for Cortland gave me a new line to try =last Summer. It does not have a braided core. It has 5 hollow filaments =that are not braided. The line floats like a cork and for the first time =in a plastic line, the tip does not sink. The diameters are the same as =the plastic lines with a braided core. (silk lines are still thinner) A =new coating which is said to be 5 or 6 times more durable than the old =plastic finishes is also being used. I know I can wear out an old 444 =Cortland line in one year given that our season in Minnesota opens on =January 1st. When the cracks appear on an old plastic line it sinks =like a tool box in about a half hour.We'll see how the new coating =works. They will be on the market the first of the year. It will be =called the 555 (what else)Dave JoJoThe lineis = 444. I've always thought the 444 to be the best plastic trout line = new 555 in sage and one other color. I have been advised neither colors = gaudy. For the sage color close your eyes and picture sage =brush.Dave -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= lineDave, Would you say this = supple than the 444, or less? Is it a good line for bamboo, you = isn't one of those horrible neon colors is it? M-D Dave = new line to try last Summer. It does not have a braided core. It = hollow filaments that are not braided. The line floats like a = diameters are the same as the plastic lines with a braided core. = lines are still thinner) A new coating which is said to be 5 or = more durable than the old plastic finishes is also being used. I = can wear out an old 444 Cortland line in one year given that our = old plastic line it sinks like a tool box in about a half = how the new coating works. They will be on the market the first = year. It will be called the 555 (what else)Dave from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 21 19:37:26 2001 f9M0bP410366 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:37:25 - for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:37:29 -0400 Subject: Re: fly line It's not working for me.:)) Oh oh wait ! she's holding out a fly line.I see it now. :))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html It's not working for =me.:)) line. Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 21 20:02:56 2001 f9M12t411078 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:02:55 - VAA01536; Subject: Re: Rattan Grips Try the Country Seat athttp://www.countryseat.com/ Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 08:12 PM 10/20/01 -0500, Rodney Brand wrote: Hello AllDoes anyone know of an outlet for Rattan? Thinking I might try a Rattangrip. TIA Rod Brand from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 21 20:28:56 2001 f9M1St411862 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:28:55 - Subject: Re: Hollow Built A2400F30A5347B9ACE4904D9" --------------A2400F30A5347B9ACE4904D9 Hollow building, I think, comes from the days of tournament castingwhere the weight of the rod figured in the equation.terry Jim Bureau wrote: Taylor: I haven't built any of the hollow built rods but I've cast severalof them. My personal opinion is that hollow built rods offer little ornothing in the way of increased performance for general trout fishing.One of the most important reasons that bamboo rods cast the way theydo is because of the weight of the cane. It's this inertia of the canethat differentiate's bamboo rods from graphite rods. I've been toseveral gatherings where fellow builders have had their latest hollowbuilt rod to cast. To tell you the truth, I couldn't tell that any ofthe rods were hollowed, nor could anyone else.When a builder says,check out this rod, it's hollow built!, what do you think? This is awhole lot different statement then if he had said, check out this rodand tell me what you think. I do believe it's a good marketing schemebut not much more. For heavy rods of over 8 1/2 ft in length, youcould very well benifit from hollow building. The slight weightsavings that you'd g! ! et from hollowing could make a noticeabledifference when casting these heavy rods for long periods of time. Jim>From: "taylor hogan" Subject: Hollow BuiltDate: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:46:04 -0400 Has anyone done any hollow built rods, or removed significant insidematerial to lose weight?I am curious as to opinions on how the glue up went, and any noticable casting differences?Taylor -----------------------------------------------------------------------Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------A2400F30A5347B9ACE4904D9 Hollow building, I think, comes from the days of tournament casting wherethe weight of the rod figured in the equation.terry Jim Bureau wrote: Taylor: of them. My personal opinion is that hollow built rods offer little ornothing in the way of increased performance for general trout fishing.One of the most important reasons that bamboo rods cast the way they dois because of the weight of the cane. It's this inertia of the cane thatdifferentiate's bamboo rods from graphite rods. I've been to severalgatheringswhere fellow builders have had their latest hollow built rod to cast. Totell you the truth, I couldn't tell that any of the rods were hollowed,nor could anyone else.When a builder says, check out this rod, it's hollowbuilt!, what do you think? This is a whole lot different statement thenif he had said, check out this rod and tell me what you think. I do believeit's a good marketing scheme but not much more. For heavy rods of over8 1/2 ft in length, you could very well benifit from hollow building. Theslight weight savings that you'd g! ! et from hollowing could make a noticeabledifference when casting these heavy rods for long periods of time. Subject: Hollow BuiltDate: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:46:04 -0400 Has anyone done any hollow built rods, or removed significant insidematerial to lose weight?I am curious as to opinions on how the glue up went, and any noticablecasting differences?Taylor Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------A2400F30A5347B9ACE4904D9-- from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 21 20:53:15 2001 f9M1rE412547 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:53:15 - ([209.178.134.152] helo=g2t8c9) id 15vUHH-0001bz-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:53:19 -0700 Subject: Bishop rodmakers gathering Just returned from the Bishop Rodmakers Gathering. 2 days of =socializing, fishing and talking cane. Many people showed up and we were =able to cast some wonderful rods. John Zimy was there as well as Jim =Reams and JW so many others , I do not remember there names. A big =thank you goes out to Chuck Irvinve of Owen River Rods. He and his wife =hosted the gathering. They were very gracious and wonderful. Chuck shop =is something to behold and we were in awe. JW brought and demonstrated his new prototype milling machine. His =demonstration went something like this; he walked over to his mill =without saying a word,placed a strip, turned it on in a few seconds a =finished strip was done down to .025. He then sat down without a word. =His demo said it all. I enjoyed meeting JW, he has quite the reputation =among many top rodmakers. His reputation is basically "his stuff works". =Believe me the guys saying it do not say that about many people. JW also =demonstrated his rod wrapping machine.Needless to say I know must own =one. I will be hitting ebay selling some custom knives from my =collection to get one. The weather was clear and cool, the sky was blue and the sunsets orange. =Food was plentiful. I hope to see all you guys next year. Adam Vigil Just returned from the BishopRodmakers = 2 days of socializing, fishing and talking cane. Many people showed up = were able to cast some wonderful rods. John Zimy was there as well as = = thank you goes out to Chuck Irvinve of Owen River Rods. He and his wife = the gathering. They were very gracious and wonderful. Chuck shop is = behold and we were in awe. JW brought and demonstrated his new = milling machine. His demonstration went something like this; he walked = his mill without saying a word,placed a strip, turned it on in a few = finished strip was done down to .025. He then sat down without a word. = said it all. I enjoyed meeting JW, he has quite the reputation among = rodmakers. His reputation is basically "his stuff works". Believe me the = saying it do not say that about many people. JW also demonstrated his = wrapping machine.Needless to say I know must own one. I will be hitting = selling some custom knives from my collection to get one. The weather was clear and = blue and the sunsets orange. Food was plentiful. I hope to see all you = year. AdamVigil from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 21:02:22 2001 f9M22L412946 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:02:21 - Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:02:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Ferrule fit FILETIME=[960108A0:01C15A9D] I have only used Bellingers to date, and they have been 0.001 to 0.002oversize. But the other day one fit perfectly right out of the bag with nolapping. Jeff from bob@downandacross.com Sun Oct 21 21:12:25 2001 f9M2CO413358 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:12:24 - Subject: RE: Bishop rodmakers gathering Hi Adam:I have been in on that mill secret for a while. I am not surprised that itis so awesome. Please tell me more. Was the strip an even .025 or was ittapered to an actual rod? I have JW's wrapper and his beveller. I will get amill if he finsihes his work on it and it does what he says it will. I trustJW as a good friend. I am sure that if he says it will do strips that youcan glue up, it will.Thanks for your post,Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 9:54 PM Subject: Bishop rodmakers gathering Just returned from the Bishop Rodmakers Gathering. 2 days of socializing,fishing and talking cane. Many people showed up and we were able to castsome wonderful rods. John Zimy was there as well as Jim Reams and JW somany others , I do not remember there names. A big thank you goes out toChuck Irvinve of Owen River Rods. He and his wife hosted the gathering. Theywere very gracious and wonderful. Chuck shop is something to behold and wewere in awe. JW brought and demonstrated his new prototype milling machine. Hisdemonstration went something like this; he walked over to his mill withoutsaying a word,placed a strip, turned it on in a few seconds a finished stripwas done down to .025. He then sat down without a word. His demo said itall. I enjoyed meeting JW, he has quite the reputation among many toprodmakers. His reputation is basically "his stuff works". Believe me theguys saying it do not say that about many people. JW also demonstrated hisrod wrapping machine.Needless to say I know must own one. I will be hittingebay selling some custom knives from my collection to get one. The weather was clear and cool, the sky was blue and the sunsets orange.Food was plentiful. I hope to see all you guys next year. Adam Vigil Adam: been in on that mill secret for a while. I am not surprised that it is = awesome. Please tell me more. Was the strip an even .025 or was it = actual rod? I have JW's wrapper and his beveller. I will get a mill if = finsihes his work on it and it does what he says it will. I trust JW as = friend. I am sure that if he says it will do strips that you can glue = will. Bob VigilSent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 9:54 gatheringJust returned from the Bishop = Gathering. 2 days of socializing, fishing and talking cane. Many = up and we were able to cast some wonderful rods. John Zimy was there = names. A big thank you goes out to Chuck Irvinve of Owen River Rods. = his wife hosted the gathering. They were very gracious and wonderful. = shop is something to behold and we were in awe. JW brought and demonstrated his new = milling machine. His demonstration went something like this; he walked = his mill without saying a word,placed a strip, turned it on in a few = finished strip was done down to .025. He then sat down without a word. = demo said it all. I enjoyed meeting JW, he has quite the reputation = top rodmakers. His reputation is basically "his stuff works". Believe = guys saying it do not say that about many people. JW also demonstrated = wrapping machine.Needless to say I know must own one. I will be = selling some custom knives from my collection to get one. The weather was clear and = blue and the sunsets orange. Food was plentiful. I hope to see all you = next year. Adam =Vigil from Troutgetter@aol.com Sun Oct 21 21:29:40 2001 f9M2Td414151 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:29:39 - for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:29:36 - Subject: Re:Great Western Gathering Adam, and all,Chuck and his wife, Ginny, were indeed fabulous hosts, in fabulous surroundings! My thanks also to Don Burns for his organization, andpromotion of the gathering! Also to Olof for sending about 10 reels filled with various sizes of silk lines. Maybe if Adam sells enough of his old knives he might buy me one!Thanks Chuck and Don for a GREAT weekend.Mike Shay <<I do not remember there names. A big thank you goesout to Chuck Irvinve of Owen River Rods. He and his wife hosted the Adam, and all,Chuck and his wife, Ginny, were indeed fabulous hosts, in fabuloussurroundings! My thanks also to Don Burns for his organization, andpromotion of the gathering! Also to Olof for sending about 10 reels filled withvarious sizes of silk lines. Maybe if Adam sells enough of his old knives hemight buy me one!Thanks Chuck and Don for a GREAT weekend.Mike Shay from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 21 23:27:47 2001 f9M4Rk416645 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:27:46 - ([209.178.135.50] helo=g2t8c9) id 15vWgl-00035y-00; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:27:48 -0700 Subject: Re: Bishop rodmakers gathering Bob, A rough strip is laid atop an adjustable plastic bed. It was held in =place with a couple of straps. The cutting head traveled on a track at a =constant rate of speed. The cutters can be bought at home depot etc. and =are not anywhere near the cost of other bevellers cutters. The strip was =tapered with the tip at .025. We did take 6 strips and they went =together pretty well. It had a vacum hook up and completed a strip =quickly. No physically demanding effort at all to the operator. The mill =will be a god send to those makers who have physical challenges which =would otherwise prohibit planning and for those who are swamped with =orders. Now, this machine was a prototype and a few changes in the track =and drive position are planned. I have heard other mills/bevellers suffer from vibration and have a hard =time cutting tips. JW machine had no problem with either one of those =issues. Basically the operation was so easy;he laid 2 velcro strap over =the cane flipped a switch, as the cutter advanced he would remove the =straps and then turn it off. Done! Adam Vigil Subject: RE: Bishop rodmakers gathering Hi Adam:I have been in on that mill secret for a while. I am not surprised =that it is so awesome. Please tell me more. Was the strip an even .025 =or was it tapered to an actual rod? I have JW's wrapper and his =beveller. I will get a mill if he finsihes his work on it and it does =what he says it will. I trust JW as a good friend. I am sure that if he =says it will do strips that you can glue up, it will.Thanks for your post,Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 9:54 PM Subject: Bishop rodmakers gathering Just returned from the Bishop Rodmakers Gathering. 2 days of =socializing, fishing and talking cane. Many people showed up and we were =able to cast some wonderful rods. John Zimy was there as well as Jim =Reams and JW so many others , I do not remember there names. A big =thank you goes out to Chuck Irvinve of Owen River Rods. He and his wife =hosted the gathering. They were very gracious and wonderful. Chuck shop =is something to behold and we were in awe. JW brought and demonstrated his new prototype milling machine. His =demonstration went something like this; he walked over to his mill =without saying a word,placed a strip, turned it on in a few seconds a =finished strip was done down to .025. He then sat down without a word. =His demo said it all. I enjoyed meeting JW, he has quite the reputation =among many top rodmakers. His reputation is basically "his stuff works". =Believe me the guys saying it do not say that about many people. JW also =demonstrated his rod wrapping machine.Needless to say I know must own =one. I will be hitting ebay selling some custom knives from my =collection to get one. The weather was clear and cool, the sky was blue and the sunsets =orange. Food was plentiful. I hope to see all you guys next year. Adam Vigil Bob, A rough strip is laid atop an = bed. It was held in place with a couple of straps. The cutting head = a track at a constant rate of speed. The cutters can be bought at home = etc. and are not anywhere near the cost of other bevellers cutters. The = was tapered with the tip at .025. We did take 6 strips and they went = pretty well. It had a vacum hook up and completed a strip quickly. No = demanding effort at all to the operator. The mill will be a god send to = makers who have physical challenges which would otherwise prohibit = = few changes in the track and drive position are planned. I have heard other mills/bevellers = vibration and have a hard time cutting tips. JW machine had no problem = either one of those issues. Basically the operation was so easy;he laid = strap over the cane flipped a switch, as the cutter advanced he would = straps and then turn it off. Done! Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Downandacross Rod Company ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 = PM gathering Adam: have been in on that mill secret for a while. I am not surprised that = awesome. Please tell me more. Was the strip an even .025 or was it = an actual rod? I have JW's wrapper and his beveller. I will get a mill = finsihes his work on it and it does what he says it will. I trust JW = friend. I am sure that if he says it will do strips that you can glue = will.Thanks for your post,Bob VigilSent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 9:54 gatheringJust returned from the Bishop = Gathering. 2 days of socializing, fishing and talking cane. Many = showed up and we were able to cast some wonderful rods. John Zimy = remember there names. A big thank you goes out to Chuck Irvinve of = River Rods. He and his wife hosted the gathering. They were very = awe. JW brought and demonstrated his new = milling machine. His demonstration went something like this; he = to his mill without saying a word,placed a strip, turned it on in a = seconds a finished strip was done down to .025. He then sat down = reputation among many top rodmakers. His reputation is basically = works". Believe me the guys saying it do not say that about many = also demonstrated his rod wrapping machine.Needless to say I know = one. I will be hitting ebay selling some custom knives from my = get one. The weather was clear and = was blue and the sunsets orange. Food was plentiful. I hope to see = guys next year. Vigil from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 21 23:51:09 2001 f9M4os417188 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:50:59 -0500 Subject: Anthrax (a rock band???) Hey guys I just gota tall you about this.I just arrived home after being released from a containment area because I happened to be about 6 feet from a bank clerk who opened a letter containing powder and a note saying it was......you guest it Anthrax.About 10 mins after the phone call to the police, fire dept and ambulance we were surrounded with yellow bubble suited people.I guess (hope) it was a hoax but we were all given a card with a number to call if we suddenly feel sick. Basically take two asprin and call in the morning type of thing.It was all quite civilized in fact, were all given a cup of tea and iced vo-vo biscuits (cookies ) while we waited, so while it was the longest I've ever had to wait at the bank it wasn't all bad. I can't help thinking that here in any case if any cases are found to be true the perpetrators are local right or left wing nuts trying to make a point they _could_ really let us have it with something like ebola or small pox or bubonic plague or something. Sure, Anthrax can kill but so can a lot of strains of influenza which does spread easily.I mean, why would a mob like Bin Laden's who have such a relaxed attitude towards life that they use air liners as guided missiles resort to using a bacteria that has to be transported almost individually to it's victims and can be isolated? Sounds to me more like a local bunch who don't want to be involved with the outcome of anything more nasty. Tony from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Oct 22 04:30:32 2001 f9M9UR423067 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 04:30:27 - f9M9UJH59107; Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Hello, Tony The thing about anthrax is that it is a spore forming bacterium with immensesurvival potential. It lasts for years in the environment, and is muchsimpler in the delivery department than the other exotics that you mention.Diseases like Ebola are viral, not bacterial, and the viruses concerned areobligate parasites, fragile outside the designated hosts, and require verysophisticated delivery systems if they are to be used as weapons. Anthrax iskind of "do-it-yourself", although admittedly not as simple as a bit ofpowder in an envelope for the average mug. By the time you get to the stageof having the stuff in that form, you need to have spent the kind of moneythat usually is associated with nation states and their weapons programmes. As a veterinarian, I am amazed that so many people are missing the pointwith this anthrax thing. Humans are a relatively resistant species. Many ofthem survive infection. Animals like cattle, sheep, and swine are notresistant, however. They die like flies. And as a logical extension, themost fearful employment of anthrax is a livestock plague - one of the fewbacterial ones. Viruses, as I have said, are harder to deliver. When the cattle start dying of anthax, be very afraid! Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: Anthrax (a rock band???) Hey guys I just gota tall you about this.I just arrived home after being released from a containment area because Ihappened to be about 6 feet from a bank clerk who opened a lettercontaining powder and a note saying it was......you guest it Anthrax.About 10 mins after the phone call to the police, fire dept and ambulancewe were surrounded with yellow bubble suited people.I guess (hope) it was a hoax but we were all given a card with a number tocall if we suddenly feel sick. Basically take two asprin and call in themorning type of thing.It was all quite civilized in fact, were all given a cup of tea and icedvo-vo biscuits (cookies ) while we waited, so while it was the longest I've ever had to wait at the bank it wasn't all bad. I can't help thinking that here in any case if any cases are found to betrue the perpetrators are local right or left wing nuts trying to make apoint they _could_ really let us have it with something like ebola or small pox or bubonic plague or something. Sure, Anthrax can kill but so can a lot of strains of influenza which does spread easily.I mean, why would a mob like Bin Laden's who have such a relaxed attitudetowards life that they use air liners as guided missiles resort to using abacteria that has to be transported almost individually to it's victims and can be isolated? Sounds to me more like a local bunch who don't want to beinvolved with the outcome of anything more nasty. Tony from bob@downandacross.com Mon Oct 22 07:18:59 2001 f9MCIw424664 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:18:58 - Subject: RE: Anthrax (a rock band???) It does seem like small time stuff, Tony, maybe the work of a militia groupinstead of the Bid Laden gang. WHy go after bank clerks and news agencies.The only thing I can figure is that these targets interact with the mostpeople who you might want to hit with it, A reporter might go to many scenesin a day. Restaurants might be a good choice too, but they probably don;tget enough mail to have a suspicious envelope opened without a lot ofcaution.Scary stuff,Bobps., I wonder what the band Anthrax is now thinking about this whole thing.Not that they are active now, but I bet their chances of winning the metalGrammy are getting pretty bleak. I guess Jethro Tull is feeling prettyoptimistic. (It wil be scary to see who followed that line of thought. Anyrock trivia types out there?) -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Hello, Tony The thing about anthrax is that it is a spore forming bacterium with immensesurvival potential. It lasts for years in the environment, and is muchsimpler in the delivery department than the other exotics that you mention.Diseases like Ebola are viral, not bacterial, and the viruses concerned areobligate parasites, fragile outside the designated hosts, and require verysophisticated delivery systems if they are to be used as weapons. Anthrax iskind of "do-it-yourself", although admittedly not as simple as a bit ofpowder in an envelope for the average mug. By the time you get to the stageof having the stuff in that form, you need to have spent the kind of moneythat usually is associated with nation states and their weapons programmes. As a veterinarian, I am amazed that so many people are missing the pointwith this anthrax thing. Humans are a relatively resistant species. Many ofthem survive infection. Animals like cattle, sheep, and swine are notresistant, however. They die like flies. And as a logical extension, themost fearful employment of anthrax is a livestock plague - one of the fewbacterial ones. Viruses, as I have said, are harder to deliver. When the cattle start dying of anthax, be very afraid! Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: Anthrax (a rock band???) Hey guys I just gota tall you about this.I just arrived home after being released from a containment area because Ihappened to be about 6 feet from a bank clerk who opened a lettercontaining powder and a note saying it was......you guest it Anthrax.About 10 mins after the phone call to the police, fire dept and ambulancewe were surrounded with yellow bubble suited people.I guess (hope) it was a hoax but we were all given a card with a number tocall if we suddenly feel sick. Basically take two asprin and call in themorning type of thing.It was all quite civilized in fact, were all given a cup of tea and icedvo-vo biscuits (cookies ) while we waited, so while it was the longest I've ever had to wait at the bank it wasn't all bad. I can't help thinking that here in any case if any cases are found to betrue the perpetrators are local right or left wing nuts trying to make apoint they _could_ really let us have it with something like ebola or small pox or bubonic plague or something. Sure, Anthrax can kill but so can a lot of strains of influenza which does spread easily.I mean, why would a mob like Bin Laden's who have such a relaxed attitudetowards life that they use air liners as guided missiles resort to using abacteria that has to be transported almost individually to it's victims and can be isolated? Sounds to me more like a local bunch who don't want to beinvolved with the outcome of anything more nasty. Tony from bob@downandacross.com Mon Oct 22 07:23:00 2001 f9MCMx424958 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:22:59 - Subject: RE: Bishop rodmakers gathering Dear Adam:Thanks for your insightful reply.I think the high speed and climb cut (I assume if it is like the roughbeveller) would be kinder towards vibration than most of the other mills nowbeing made. Glad I am on the list for one. Very exciting stuff, especiallywith loan rates dropping. I think the mill would be great to do quickprototypes as well. As much as I love my Hand Mill, I look forward to tryingthis one.Best regards, Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 12:28 AM Subject: Re: Bishop rodmakers gathering Bob, A rough strip is laid atop an adjustable plastic bed. It was held in placewith a couple of straps. The cutting head traveled on a track at a constantrate of speed. The cutters can be bought at home depot etc. and are notanywhere near the cost of other bevellers cutters. The strip was taperedwith the tip at .025. We did take 6 strips and they went together prettywell. It had a vacum hook up and completed a strip quickly. No physicallydemanding effort at all to the operator. The mill will be a god send tothose makers who have physical challenges which would otherwise prohibitplanning and for those who are swamped with orders. Now, this machine wasaprototype and a few changes in the track and drive position are planned. I have heard other mills/bevellers suffer from vibration and have a hardtime cutting tips. JW machine had no problem with either one of thoseissues. Basically the operation was so easy;he laid 2 velcro strap over thecane flipped a switch, as the cutter advanced he would remove the strapsandthen turn it off. Done! Adam Vigil Adam: think the high speed and climb cut (I assume if it is like the rough = would be kinder towards vibration than most of the other mills now being = Glad I am on the list for one. Very exciting stuff, especially with loan = dropping. I think the mill would be great to do quick prototypes as = one. regards, Bob VigilSent: Monday, October 22, 2001 12:28 bob@downandacross.com;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: = Bishop rodmakers gatheringBob, A rough strip is laid atop an = bed. It was held in place with a couple of straps. The cutting head = on a track at a constant rate of speed. The cutters can be bought at = depot etc. and are not anywhere near the cost of other bevellers = strip was tapered with the tip at .025. We did take 6 strips and they = together pretty well. It had a vacum hook up and completed a strip = physically demanding effort at all to the operator. The mill will be a = send to those makers who have physical challenges which would = prohibit planning and for those who are swamped with orders. Now, this = planned. I have heard other mills/bevellers = vibration and have a hard time cutting tips. JW machine had no problem = either one of those issues. Basically the operation was so easy;he = velcro strap over the cane flipped a switch, as the cutter advanced he = remove the straps and then turn it off. Done! Adam =Vigil from dwscott@blclinks.net Mon Oct 22 07:39:39 2001 f9MCdc425525 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:39:38 -0500 sender ) Subject: Rod making Video Can anyone recommend a good rod making video? Thanks. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Oct 22 08:36:17 2001 f9MDaF427656 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:36:16 - Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Rightly or wrongly I'm not especially worried about it at all from my personal point of view. I know when I had carpal tunnel surgery every one of us in the ward got golden staff which made my wounds heal more slowly but nothing apart from that while a couple of the older guys were really pretty sick while as far as I can tell anthrax being a live stock thing as you say I rate my chances of problems as being a bit better than individual strike by meteor but less than death by wading even if I were to have been exposed. People who've fished with me know I may well die wading [:-)] That's a 100% hit rate for golden staff which can make you pretty sick compared to something that is unlikely and can be cured reasonably easily. It's a lot worse for flu like the HK flu of years ago.Having said that I do feel sorry for the person who has died and others who possibly may, I'm not just writing the whole this off as a joke. Even so, it's a strange bacteria to use even for live stock destruction because I'd have thought F&M would be easier to get a hold of & transmit.It wouldn't be that hard to add an infected animal to a seed herd then simply spread them around the country. Tony As a veterinarian, I am amazed that so many people are missing the pointwith this anthrax thing. Humans are a relatively resistant species. Many ofthem survive infection. Animals like cattle, sheep, and swine are notresistant, however. They die like flies. And as a logical extension, themost fearful employment of anthrax is a livestock plague - one of the fewbacterial ones. Viruses, as I have said, are harder to deliver. When the cattle start dying of anthax, be very afraid! Peter /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Oct 22 08:51:34 2001 f9MDpR428539 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:51:32 - Subject: RE: Anthrax (a rock band???) At 08:19 AM 10/22/01 -0400, Downandacross Rod Company wrote: It does seem like small time stuff, Tony, maybe the work of a militia groupinstead of the Bid Laden gang. WHy go after bank clerks and news agencies.The only thing I can figure is that these targets interact with the mostpeople who you might want to hit with it, A reporter might go to manyscenesin a day. Restaurants might be a good choice too, but they probably don;tget enough mail to have a suspicious envelope opened without a lot ofcaution.Scary stuff,Bob If you had to pay the bank charges these usurers are ripping us with you'd want to give em what's for too. The fear of the banks is a lot higher than of these jerks I can tell you [:-)] I asked the cops who were there about it and suggested they stop attending all the call outs and try keeping the whole thing low key but they probably rightly say you just never know. I guess so.Still, according to my teenage daughter all these nutters are "try hards " which is apparently about as low as you can go, even worse it seems than "wanta be's". ps., I wonder what the band Anthrax is now thinking about this whole thing.Not that they are active now, but I bet their chances of winning the metalGrammy are getting pretty bleak. I guess Jethro Tull is feeling prettyoptimistic. (It wil be scary to see who followed that line of thought. Anyrock trivia types out there?) The lads would be seriously thinking of a name change I'd think, maybe something like "sisters of mercy" or similar.Strangly I heard what I thought was a new Jethro Tull track just the other day. Can't remember it's name because it wasn't much good but who knows? /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Mon Oct 22 09:00:01 2001 f9ME00429097 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:00:00 - Subject: RE: Anthrax (a rock band???) I could see sending Anthrax laced letters to the media - Fast, extensivemedia coverage! This could create wide spread panic, but I don't feel itdid, a heightened state of awareness maybe.Post Offices get it because they handle the mail, a bank? Possibly theamount of times money will change hands. Who knows? Pete -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Anthrax (a rock band???) At 08:19 AM 10/22/01 -0400, Downandacross Rod Company wrote: It does seem like small time stuff, Tony, maybe the work of a militia groupinstead of the Bid Laden gang. WHy go after bank clerks and news agencies.The only thing I can figure is that these targets interact with the mostpeople who you might want to hit with it, A reporter might go to many scenes in a day. Restaurants might be a good choice too, but they probably don;tget enough mail to have a suspicious envelope opened without a lot ofcaution.Scary stuff,Bob If you had to pay the bank charges these usurers are ripping us with you'dwant to give em what's for too. The fear of the banks is a lot higher thanof these jerks I can tell you [:-)] I asked the cops who were there about it and suggested they stop attendingall the call outs and try keeping the whole thing low key but they probablyrightly say you just never know. I guess so.Still, according to my teenage daughter all these nutters are "try hards "which is apparently about as low as you can go, even worse it seems than"wanta be's". ps., I wonder what the band Anthrax is now thinking about this whole thing.Not that they are active now, but I bet their chances of winning the metalGrammy are getting pretty bleak. I guess Jethro Tull is feeling prettyoptimistic. (It wil be scary to see who followed that line of thought. Anyrock trivia types out there?) The lads would be seriously thinking of a name change I'd think, maybesomething like "sisters of mercy" or similar.Strangly I heard what I thought was a new Jethro Tull track just the otherday. Can't remember it's name because it wasn't much good but who knows? /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Mon Oct 22 09:08:00 2001 f9ME7x429597 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:07:59 - Subject: Removing epoxy from wraps Before I started assembling rods a friend did me a favor of rebuilding anold cane rod I had picked up at a tag sale (no markings on it) Needed guidesreplaced, new cork grip and varnish. When he did this he used the epoxystuff for covering wraps for a plastic rod. The rod is 7' 6" it only has 4guides and a stripper, I want to remove old guides and space and add guidesto it, when stressed by fly line the line gets large gaps between theguides. Any suggestions? Peter from lblove@omniglobal.net Mon Oct 22 09:10:56 2001 f9MEAt429868 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:10:55 - Subject: RE: Anthrax (a rock band???) f9MEAt429869 hey all,Reminds me of the X-files episode thathad the flesh eating microbes in the story line. They ended up putting the stuff on the money at the movie theatre. Seemslike quite a bit of the stuff coming from the news media reminds me of old X-files episodes.Sad fact is we cant change the channeland get past the reruns. waiting for the bee's to arrive,Brad http://lblove.users.omniglobal.net *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/22/01 at 10:00 AM Peter Van Schaack wrote: I could see sending Anthrax laced letters to the media - Fast, extensivemedia coverage! This could create wide spread panic, but I don't feel itdid, a heightened state of awareness maybe.Post Offices get it because they handle the mail, a bank? Possibly theamount of times money will change hands. Who knows? Pete -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 9:56 AM Cc: rodmakersSubject: RE: Anthrax (a rock band???) At 08:19 AM 10/22/01 -0400, Downandacross Rod Company wrote: It does seem like small time stuff, Tony, maybe the work of a militia group instead of the Bid Laden gang. WHy go after bank clerks and newsagencies.The only thing I can figure is that these targets interact with the mostpeople who you might want to hit with it, A reporter might go to many scenes in a day. Restaurants might be a good choice too, but they probably don;tget enough mail to have a suspicious envelope opened without a lot ofcaution.Scary stuff,Bob If you had to pay the bank charges these usurers are ripping us with you'dwant to give em what's for too. The fear of the banks is a lot higher thanof these jerks I can tell you [:-)] I asked the cops who were there about it and suggested they stop attendingall the call outs and try keeping the whole thing low key but they probablyrightly say you just never know. I guess so.Still, according to my teenage daughter all these nutters are "try hards "which is apparently about as low as you can go, even worse it seems than"wanta be's". ps., I wonder what the band Anthrax is now thinking about this whole thing. Not that they are active now, but I bet their chances of winning the metalGrammy are getting pretty bleak. I guess Jethro Tull is feeling prettyoptimistic. (It wil be scary to see who followed that line of thought. Anyrock trivia types out there?) The lads would be seriously thinking of a name change I'd think, maybesomething like "sisters of mercy" or similar.Strangly I heard what I thought was a new Jethro Tull track just the otherday. Can't remember it's name because it wasn't much good but whoknows? /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 22 09:13:55 2001 f9MEDs400144 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:13:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Remember how James Bond always saved mankind by using better gadgetsthan theenemy? Who would have thought that in real life the world could be thrownintochaos by box knives and white powder? Think about it!Terry Tony Young wrote: Hey guys I just gota tall you about this.I just arrived home after being released from a containment area because Ihappened to be about 6 feet from a bank clerk who opened a lettercontaining powder and a note saying it was......you guest it Anthrax.About 10 mins after the phone call to the police, fire dept and ambulancewe were surrounded with yellow bubble suited people.I guess (hope) it was a hoax but we were all given a card with a number tocall if we suddenly feel sick. Basically take two asprin and call in themorning type of thing.It was all quite civilized in fact, were all given a cup of tea and icedvo-vo biscuits (cookies ) while we waited, so while it was the longest I'veever had to wait at the bank it wasn't all bad. I can't help thinking that here in any case if any cases are found to betrue the perpetrators are local right or left wing nuts trying to make apoint they _could_ really let us have it with something like ebola or smallpox or bubonic plague or something. Sure, Anthrax can kill but so can a lotof strains of influenza which does spread easily.I mean, why would a mob like Bin Laden's who have such a relaxed attitudetowards life that they use air liners as guided missiles resort to using abacteria that has to be transported almost individually to it's victims andcan be isolated? Sounds to me more like a local bunch who don't want to beinvolved with the outcome of anything more nasty. Tony from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Oct 22 09:24:35 2001 f9MEOX401011 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:24:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) It IS strange isn't it? I find it very interesting that it was only a month ago a lot of people upon receiving white powder in the mail would hide it from the cops and try to shove it up their noses, now they hold their noses and CALL the cops. Tony At 10:12 AM 10/22/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Remember how James Bond always saved mankind by using better gadgetsthan theenemy? Who would have thought that in real life the world could be thrownintochaos by box knives and white powder? Think about it!Terry /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 22 10:17:00 2001 f9MFGx403872 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:17:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) As long as don't piss in our beer!Terry Tony Young wrote: It IS strange isn't it? I find it very interesting that it was only a monthago a lot of people upon receiving white powder in the mail would hide it from the cops and try to shove it up their noses, now they hold their nosesand CALL the cops. Tony At 10:12 AM 10/22/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Remember how James Bond always saved mankind by using bettergadgets than theenemy? Who would have thought that in real life the world could be thrownintochaos by box knives and white powder? Think about it!Terry /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from gjm80301@yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 10:18:38 2001 f9MFIc404121 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:18:38 - Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:18:43 PDT Subject: Dickerson Book on Ebay While there has been a copy of the dickerson book on ebay for$175-$220 forever,another just appeared with an opening bid requiredof $50. URL is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1021532343 You can still buy one direct (I think) for Jerry Stein for about$125. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Oct 22 10:22:16 2001 f9MFME404660 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:22:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) They WOULDN'T dare!!! A thing can go just so far! At 11:18 AM 10/22/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: As long as don't piss in our beer!Terry Tony Young wrote: It IS strange isn't it? I find it very interesting that it was only a monthago a lot of people upon receiving white powder in the mail would hide it from the cops and try to shove it up their noses, now they hold theirnosesand CALL the cops. /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from Canerods@aol.com Mon Oct 22 10:28:22 2001 f9MFSM405183 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:28:22 - for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:28:18 - Subject: Great Western rodmakers gathering All, Once again Chuck & Ginnie Irvine were gracious hosts for the event. About twenty one people attended. Lots of beautiful rods were shown. Two that stuck in my mind were Tom Smithwich's "twist" rod plus Jim Reams 6' 1 wt rod that was something else. I brought along some rods from Peter McKean, one of our rod list Aussie rodmakers, and so he won the rod from the longest distance from homeaward. I also had a few classic rods including a 6' 2-1/4" 7 wt by Farlows, trade rod built for the Norm Thompson tackle shop. I believe this is the same rod as the Lee Wulff rod by Farlows. If you ever in need a windy day rod for the Eastern Sierra's this is it. John Zimny, formerly of Willington, DE, and now in the process of moving to Bishop, was the rodmaker winning the traveled the longest distance from home award. I guess he will be just getting adjusted to the time change about the time that he boards his return flight. John do come back next year! Bring some other "east-coasters" with you. JW had his latest must-have machine to show off (covered elsewhere) andonce again proved that a good design is so simple (after a mech. wizzard develops it) that even I could figure out how to use it. Bob Venneri again came through wiith a box of discounted reelseats. Olaf sent out a box of Hardy's with just about every line wt. and taper silk fly line known to mankind for us to test cast. Did he really think that he was getting them back? Seriously, thanks Olaf! David Kushuba and his fishing partner cooked up a Saturday night BBQchicken dinner that was something else. Well done, David. The weather was warmer than usual. The streams were running low except parts of the Owens River where DWP were releasing water. The Sierra's were almost totally devoid of snow after two years of low rainfall. Tricos and caddis hatches were going on at Chuck's "Holy Water" section of the Owens. Last thing, Chuck and I have been working on something and we're goingahead with an annual rod to be presented to Cal-Trout. The first will be presented to them next year. The rod will be auctioned off and the proceeds will go to Cal-Trout for stream improvement. We'd like to make this an annualhappening. I'm donating some rod components and Chuck will make the first rod. Thanks to all that attended, hope to see you all next year. Don Burns PS - GW2002 will be a bigger, better more organized event. Website to soonbe online. I hope that some of my video turns out exposed properly (I'm new at this) and, if so, clips will be posted. All, Once again Chuck & Ginnie Irvine were gracious hosts for theevent. About twenty one people attended. Lots of beautiful rods were shown. Two that stuck in my mind wereTom Smithwich's "twist" rod plus Jim Reams 6' 1 wt rod that was somethingelse. I brought along some rods from Peter McKean, one of our rod listAussie rodmakers, and so he won the rod from the longest distance fromhome award. I also had a few classic rods including a 6' 2-1/4" 7 wt by Farlows, traderod built for the Norm Thompson tackle shop. I believe this is the same rodas the Lee Wulff rod by Farlows. If you ever in need a windy day rod for theEastern Sierra's this is it. John Zimny, formerly of Willington, DE, and now in the process of adjusted to the time change about the time that he boards his return flight. with you. JW had his latest must-have machine to show off (covered elsewhere)and once again proved that a good design is so simple (after a mech. wizzarddevelops it) that even I could figure out how to use it. Bob Venneri again came through wiith a box of discounted reelseats. Olaf sent out a box of Hardy's with just about every line wt. and tapersilk fly line known to mankind for us to test cast. Did he really think that he David Kushuba and his fishing partner cooked up a Saturday night BBQchicken dinner that was something else. Well done, David. The weather was warmer than usual. The streams were running lowexcept for parts of the Owens River where DWP were releasing water. TheSierra's were almost totally devoid of snow after two years of low rainfall. Tricos and caddis hatches were going on at Chuck's "Holy Water"section of the Owens. Last thing, Chuck and I have been working on something and we're goingahead with an annual rod to be presented to Cal-Trout. The first will bepresented to them next year. The rod will be auctioned off and the proceedswill go to Cal- Trout for stream improvement. We'd like to make this an annualhappening. I'm donating some rod components and Chuck will make the firstrod. Thanks to all that attended, hope to see you all next year. Don Burns PS - GW2002 will be a bigger, better more organized event. Website tosoon be online. I hope that some of my video turns out exposed properly (I'mnew at this) and, if so, clips will be posted. from LambersonW@missouri.edu Mon Oct 22 10:33:49 2001 f9MFXn405827 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:33:49 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:33:51 -0500 rodmakers Subject: RE: Dickerson Book on Ebay I recently bought a new, albeit dusty, copy from a fly shop for $17.95.Maybe I'll go back and pick up the other copy they had on the shelf. Itoften pays to keep your eyes open! Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Subject: Dickerson Book on Ebay While there has been a copy of the dickerson book on ebay for$175-$220 forever,another just appeared with an opening bid requiredof $50. URL is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1021532343 You can still buy one direct (I think) for Jerry Stein for about$125. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Mon Oct 22 11:17:29 2001 f9MGHS408755 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:17:28 -0500 Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:17:26 +0100 Subject: Re: carp rod MKIV Geert,Here's the MkIV Taper ( from Richard Walkers Book );The taper is given from apex to flat for a single strip, i.e multiply X2to get the 'flat to flat' dimension across a section.All dimensions being in 'christian' units of thousandths of an inchThe rod is built as a two piece 10 footer.The handle is all cork fittedwith two slidingrings for the reel seat and is usually decorated with intermediatewraps. Tip 0" .060" , i.e flat to flat dimension is .120" 6" .075" 12" .092" 18" .104" 24" .115 30" .121" 36" .122"( Yes this station does read .122"!! ) 42" .136" 48" .145" 54" .154" 60" .165" 66" .175" 72" .186" 78" .197" 84" .207" 90" .220" 96" .233" 102" .250" 108" ) 114" )Wooden Handle 120" ) The original MkIV's all had a length ofsolid cane spliced into the butt section after the 102"mark.Modernbuilders generally continue the area under handle by extending the builtcane up to the 120" point .Your guess at what these dimensions should beare as good as anyones for this area of the rod. is........the MkIV is quite possibly the most famous of any split cane /bamboo UK fishing rod.It is a two piece rod, 10' long that was devised also been used for Salmon spinning and Pike fishing with live/deadbaits.This rod would handle any Musky that swims!If anyone has any further interest in this rod have a look at;www.traditional-angling.co.uk and have a look at the 'articles'page fora brief description of the S/U version of this classic. Tight lines.......Paul "paul.blakley" wrote: Geert,This is an easy one!I am just setting off to the Chatsworth Game and Fishing fair but willpost the taper to the list on my return..sometime next week.Tight lines........Paul Geert Poorteman wrote: Dear all,Now I know all of you are fly fisher men, and I do my share whenever ican, butbeing a belgian (but living in Africa), I have different fishing. I used to fish makea carp rod for carp of course, but also for catfish here in the lake(again, notrout around here, the nearest being in Kenya). Is there someone inbritain whocan give me the specs for a MKIV carp rod, or another one if no MKIV isavailable Regards,Geert Poorteman from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Mon Oct 22 11:26:16 2001 f9MGQF409508 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:26:15 -0500 Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:26:19 +0100 Subject: Re: carp rod MKIV Geert,Here's the MkIV Taper ( from Richard Walkers Book );The taper is given from apex to flat for a single strip, i.e multiply X2to get the 'flat to flat' dimension across a section.All dimensions being in 'christian' units of thousandths of an inch Tip 0" .060" , i.e flat to flat dimension is .120" 6" .075" 12" .092" 18" .104" 24" .115 30" .121" 36" .122"( Yes this station does read .122"!! ) 42" .136" 48" .145" 54" .154" 60" .165" 66" .175" 72" .186" End of Tip Section 78" .197" Start of Butt Section 84" .207" 90" .220" 96" .233" 102" .250" 108" ) 114" )Wooden Handle 120" ) The original MkIV's all had a length ofsolid cane spliced into the butt section after the 102"mark.Modernbuilders generally continue the area under handle by extending the builtcane up to the 120" point .Your guess at what these dimensions should beare as good as anyones for this area of the rod. is........the MkIV is quite possibly the most famous of any split cane /bamboo UK fishing rod.It is a two piece rod, 10' long that was devised also been used for Salmon spinning and Pike fishing with live/deadbaits.This rod would handle any Musky that swims!If anyone has any further interest in this rod have a look at;www.traditional-angling.co.uk and have a look at the 'articles'page fora brief description of the S/U version of this classic. Tight lines.......Paul "paul.blakley" wrote: Geert,This is an easy one!I am just setting off to the Chatsworth Game and Fishing fair but willpost the taper to the list on my return..sometime next week.Tight lines........Paul Geert Poorteman wrote: Dear all,Now I know all of you are fly fisher men, and I do my share whenever ican, butbeing a belgian (but living in Africa), I have different fishing. I used to fish makea carp rod for carp of course, but also for catfish here in the lake(again, notrout around here, the nearest being in Kenya). Is there someone inbritain whocan give me the specs for a MKIV carp rod, or another one if no MKIV isavailable Regards,Geert Poorteman from ttalsma@macatawa.org Mon Oct 22 12:45:42 2001 f9MHje414301 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:45:42 - id ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:39:28 -0400 id TH24NQ71; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:39:16 -0400 Subject: Tips/Source archive It's Monday again and I've made some pretty major changes to the tipssite again. (http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/) When I told someone about this tip archive project, I got the response"Good luck getting information from these rodmakers." I didn't believethat for a minute, but I may have found a reason why this person saidthis. Although there is a great amount of communication happening onthe list, I've found a common thread to the responses that I've receivedwhen asking permission to use a tip. Most of the responses start outwith an "I'm not worthy" type of response. It's either that orsomething like "I don't think that tip is that great to be added to thearchive." I'm kind of stumped as to why these thoughts are out there. I know that there are a lot of processes out there that you makers ofsay 10+ rods are doing now that you weren't doing when you started. Whyare you doing it the way you are doing it now compared to when youstarted? That would be a good tip. Also, after reading the latestPowerFibers (thanks for a great publication, Bob), I kind of scratch myhead when I read that Ralph Moon uses the galvanized pipe heat treatingmethod instead of an elaborately built oven (not that I'm saying eithermethod is better, just different). Why is that (Well, the articleanswers that, doesn't it)? I see that he did built an electric oven,but doesn't use it for heat treating. Hmmm. I'm not directing this atany maker in particular, but to the entire group. I think there are alot of people out there that have good ideas that sometimes arereluctant to share them, either because they don't think they are"important" enough or because they don't want to let out a tradesecret. If the reason is the latter, OK, I can accept that, but if it'sthe former, we have to get over that. If it works for you, it will work "get over the top" and build great rods. The only other thing that Ican think of is that everyone is doing the same thing (or so we think). I think a lot of these same things apply to the photo archive projectthat Shawn Pineo has proposed. Enough said, I'm getting down off of my soapbox now.-- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htm genealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm >FromDarryl.Hayashida@phs.com Mon Oct 22 13:10:04 2001 Received: from f9MIA3415640 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:37 -0500 2001 18:13:12 UT Received: from 149.111.61.135 by inetws2.phs.com with 11:09:50 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 9d23082c-823c-11d3-b522-0001fa7e355e ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:09:27 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive Date: Mon, Service (5.5.2653.19) X-WSS-ID: 17CABF56551986-03-03 Content-Type: Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN OkayTodd here's one of my tips: Blonde Flamed Cane If you flame the inside onlyof a split in half culm, the outside will remain straw yellow (blonde - whateveryou want to call it). When you flame the inside of a culm, at first you willhave a swirl of orange flame around your torch flame. Flame until the swirlgoes away and your torch produces only a glowing red spot on the carbonizedpith. I start in the middle and work my way towards one end, then the other.Make sure the inside is evenly blackened from edge to edge. Give a littleextra time to the nodes. They are thicker and will need more heat. Notice theend grain when you get close to it with the flame. You will see bamboo sapfoaming out of the end and liquid dripping out. When cool, wire brush awaythe soot, split, and plane away. No other heat treatment is needed. I do notuse an oven. I freely give permission to use this on your tips web page. DarrylHayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:42 AM Subject: Tips/Source archive It's Monday again and I've made some pretty major changes to the tipssite again. (http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/) When I told someone about this tip archive project, I got the response"Good luck getting information from these rodmakers." I didn't believethat for a minute, but I may have found a reason why this person saidthis. Although there is a great amount of communication happening onthe list, I've found a common thread to the responses that I've receivedwhen asking permission to use a tip. Most of the responses start outwith an "I'm not worthy" type of response. It's either that orsomething like "I don't think that tip is that great to be added to thearchive." I'm kind of stumped as to why these thoughts are out there. I know that there are a lot of processes out there that you makers ofsay 10+ rods are doing now that you weren't doing when you started. Whyare you doing it the way you are doing it now compared to when youstarted? That would be a good tip. Also, after reading the latestPowerFibers (thanks for a great publication, Bob), I kind of scratch myhead when I read that Ralph Moon uses the galvanized pipe heat treatingmethod instead of an elaborately built oven (not that I'm saying eithermethod is better, just different). Why is that (Well, the articleanswers that, doesn't it)? I see that he did built an electric oven,but doesn't use it for heat treating. Hmmm. I'm not directing this atany maker in particular, but to the entire group. I think there are alot of people out there that have good ideas that sometimes arereluctant to share them, either because they don't think they are"important" enough or because they don't want to let out a tradesecret. If the reason is the latter, OK, I can accept that, but if it'sthe former, we have to get over that. If it works for you, it will work "get over the top" and build great rods. The only other thing that Ican think of is that everyone is doing the same thing (or so we think). I think a lot of these same things apply to the photo archive projectthat Shawn Pineo has proposed. Enough said, I'm getting down off of my soapbox now.-- Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from timklein@qwest.net Mon Oct 22 13:11:38 2001 f9MIBY415777 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:11:35 - (65.102.232.54) Subject: Re: heat gun oven question Tim, I had the same problem with my heat gun oven so I now use it on its side.That added almost 75 degrees to my internal temperatures when set upupright. Insulation also helps a lot (that added about 110 degrees), but as Imentioned a few days ago, I haven't been using insulation recently. Theextra temperature I got from using it sideways was enough.---Tim ----- Original Message ----- Subject: heat gun oven question I just finished completing my Neuneman style oven. I use a heat gun thathas a high setting of 1000 degrees. I tried out my oven and could only getI up to 300 degrees after running the gun full boar for 45 min. I wastrying it outdoors because I will need the clearance to get the rod sectionsin. I was wondering if insulation might help. Any thoughts? Thanks, Tim from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Mon Oct 22 13:46:13 2001 f9MIkC418008 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:46:12 - Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Peter,I own a Mike Clark 81/2 foot 5 wt and it is a beautiful rod, a little =shy in the cosmetic department, but overall a very fine rod. I like =Mike's rods well enough to order another. losey Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 4:50 PMSubject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update I just went out and cast the same rod I mentioned in my earlier post. =This morning I tried it with a 5 and a 6. I just tried it with a 7 and =an 8. I have come to the conclusion that the rod is a 7/8. Now, I am =rather peeved about this, because I did not want a 7/8, I wanted the 5 =weight I set out to build. The taper was listed as a 5 weight in the =book I got it from. It does not cast a 5 very well at all. You can not =feel the rod loading behind you on the backcast. My blank came out =nicely, cosmetically and so forth, but I don't even feel like finishing =it anymore. I guess the moral to the story is that you are taking =somebody's taper dimensions completely on faith unless you get to cast a =similar rod beforehand. Maybe someday I will attend a rodmaker's =gathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the way the rod casts =with a 5 weight. I simply can not believe that personal taste is my =problem with the taper. Which leads to another question - does anybody have a good taper for =an 8 1/2 foot 5 weight? That is what this rod was supposed to be. I =know many bamboo guys like short rods, but I am not one of them. I can =get over a little extra weight for the better distance and line control =a long rod gives. I was intrigued by John Geirach's writing how his =favorite rod is an 8 1/2 foot 5 weight Mike Clark. I heard a rumor that =Clark's rod may be a bit of a noodle. But I was heartened when I built =an 8 1/2 foot rod for a buddy this spring. It was a Ray Gould 6 weight =taper. When I got done, it turned out to be a 6/7, but I really loved =the way it cast. I was tempted to built another rod based on the same =taper, but to shave a few thousandths off and try for a 5. Problem is, =the tip measurement is only about .065 inches on the original taper. I =don't know if I would trust a tip any smaller than that. Any =suggestions/anecdotes? Peter Collin Peter,I own a Mike Clark 81/2 foot 5 wt and = beautiful rod, a little shy in the cosmetic department, but overall a = rod. I like Mike's rods well enough to order another. losey ----- Original Message ----- A. Collin Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 = PMSubject: Re: False Advertising = weights - update I just went out and cast the same rod = My blank came out nicely, cosmetically and so forth, but I don't even = are taking somebody's taper dimensions completely on faith unless you = gathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the way the rod casts = the taper. Which leads to another question - = tempted to built another rod based on the same taper, but to shave a = suggestions/anecdotes? Collin from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Oct 22 14:16:23 2001 f9MJGM419747 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:16:22 - Subject: Re: Dickerson Book on Ebay Can't this book still be had by the authors? Can't this book still behad by the authors? from alan.grombacher@pioneer.com Mon Oct 22 14:43:32 2001 f9MJhV421656 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:43:31 - 22 Oct 2001 15:27:42 -0400 id ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:27:41 -0500 pcollin@rochester.rr.com,Rodmakers Subject: RE: False Advertising in line weights - update this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Peter/Doug/and Folks, Mike Clark rods are anything but noodles. Mike's rods tend to be on thefast side. Great rods they are. I have two of his: an 8 foot 2 pc 6wght with heavy tips, and a 8 1/2 foot 3piece 6 wght Gierach/Best Special. The 2 piece with heavy tips is my normalrod, and the 3 piece is my travel rod. The cosmetics of mine are excellent - Cherry reel insert, N.S. (one isengraved), incredible cork, full intermediate wraps, Heddon #35 coloredwraps, all metal blued. I have cast/fished a bunch of Mike's rods from 7 1/2 foot 4 wghts to his 9footers. None are slow, all tend to be fast. If you want a full flexing 8 1/2 foot 3 piece 5 weight - then build aLeonard Model 50 1/2. Doug - When did Mike build your rod? Cheers, Alberta Al -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Peter,I own a Mike Clark 81/2 foot 5 wt and it is a beautiful rod, a little shy inthe cosmetic department, but overall a very fine rod. I like Mike's rodswell enough to order another. losey ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 4:50PMSubject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update I just went out and cast the same rod I mentioned in my earlier post. Thismorning I tried it with a 5 and a 6. I just tried it with a 7 and an 8. Ihave come to the conclusion that the rod is a 7/8. Now, I am rather peevedabout this, because I did not want a 7/8, I wanted the 5 weight I set out tobuild. The taper was listed as a 5 weight in the book I got it from. Itdoes not cast a 5 very well at all. You can not feel the rod loading behindyou on the backcast. My blank came out nicely, cosmetically and so forth,but I don't even feel like finishing it anymore. I guess the moral to thestory is that you are taking somebody's taper dimensions completely on faithunless you get to cast a similar rod beforehand. Maybe someday I willattend a rodmaker's gathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the waythe rod casts with a 5 weight. I simply can not believe that personal tasteis my problem with the taper. Which leads to another question - does anybody have a good taper for an 81/2 foot 5 weight? That is what this rod was supposed to be. I know manybamboo guys like short rods, but I am not one of them. I can get over alittle extra weight for the better distance and line control a long rodgives. I was intrigued by John Geirach's writing how his favorite rod is an8 1/2 foot 5 weight Mike Clark. I heard a rumor that Clark's rod may be abit of a noodle. But I was heartened when I built an 8 1/2 foot rod for abuddy this spring. It was a Ray Gould 6 weight taper. When I got done, itturned out to be a 6/7, but I really loved the way it cast. I was temptedto built another rod based on the same taper, but to shave a fewthousandthsoff and try for a 5. Problem is, the tip measurement is only about .065inches on the original taper. I don't know if I would trust a tip anysmaller than that. Any suggestions/anecdotes? Peter Collin Peter/Doug/and Folks, Mike I have two of his: an 8 foot 2 pc 6wght with heavy tips, and a 8 1/2 foot 3 piece 6 rod, and the 3 piece is my travel rod. The cosmetics of mine are excellent - Cherry reel insert, N.S. (one is engraved), incredible cork, full intermediate wraps, Heddon #35 colored wraps, all metal blued. I have If you want a full flexing 8 1/2 foot 3 piece 5 weight - then build a Leonard Model50 1/2. Doug - When did Mike build your rod? Cheers, Alberta Al -----Original Message-----From: Douglas Losey October 22, RodmakersSubject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - updatePeter,I own a Mike Clark 81/2 foot 5 wt and it is a beautiful rod, a little shy in the cosmetic department, but overall a very fine rod. I like Mike's rods well enough to order another. losey ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter A. Collin Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 4:50 PMSubject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update I just went out and cast the same rod I this, because I did not want a 7/8, I wanted the 5 weight I set out to out nicely, cosmetically and so forth, but I don't even feel like finishing somebody's taper dimensions completely on faith unless you get to casta gathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the way the rod casts my problem with the taper. Which leads to another question - does what weight for the better distance and line control a long rod another rod based on the same taper, but to shave a few thousandthsoff suggestions/anecdotes? Peter Collin from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Mon Oct 22 14:56:39 2001 f9MJud422910 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:56:39 - for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:54:15 -0500 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:55:54 -0700 Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive Nobody else giving up their pearls of wisdom?How about this one. Groove your plane sole.Your plane blade will not touch your planing form, staying sharp longer, andthose nicks on the top of your forms will be gone - or at least there willbe a lot less of them.Bruce Conner's Web page tells how you can do it yourself with strips ofsandpaper and two pieces of wood.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:42 AM Subject: Tips/Source archive It's Monday again and I've made some pretty major changes to the tipssite again. (http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/) When I told someone about this tip archive project, I got the response"Good luck getting information from these rodmakers." I didn't believethat for a minute, but I may have found a reason why this person saidthis. Although there is a great amount of communication happening onthe list, I've found a common thread to the responses that I've receivedwhen asking permission to use a tip. Most of the responses start outwith an "I'm not worthy" type of response. It's either that orsomething like "I don't think that tip is that great to be added to thearchive." I'm kind of stumped as to why these thoughts are out there. I know that there are a lot of processes out there that you makers ofsay 10+ rods are doing now that you weren't doing when you started. Whyare you doing it the way you are doing it now compared to when youstarted? That would be a good tip. Also, after reading the latestPowerFibers (thanks for a great publication, Bob), I kind of scratch myhead when I read that Ralph Moon uses the galvanized pipe heat treatingmethod instead of an elaborately built oven (not that I'm saying eithermethod is better, just different). Why is that (Well, the articleanswers that, doesn't it)? I see that he did built an electric oven,but doesn't use it for heat treating. Hmmm. I'm not directing this atany maker in particular, but to the entire group. I think there are alot of people out there that have good ideas that sometimes arereluctant to share them, either because they don't think they are"important" enough or because they don't want to let out a tradesecret. If the reason is the latter, OK, I can accept that, but if it'sthe former, we have to get over that. If it works for you, it will work "get over the top" and build great rods. The only other thing that Ican think of is that everyone is doing the same thing (or so we think). I think a lot of these same things apply to the photo archive projectthat Shawn Pineo has proposed. Enough said, I'm getting down off of my soapbox now.-- Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Oct 22 14:57:30 2001 f9MJvU423012 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:57:30 -0500 MAA04564; "rodmakers@mail. wustL. edu" Subject: Re: Rod making Video from experience, There a good videos and there are rodmaking videos. Putting the to togetherin a sentence is almost an oxymoron. If you want to know about the video Ipurchased contact me off list. Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Rod making Video Can anyone recommend a good rod making video? Thanks. from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Mon Oct 22 15:01:02 2001 f9MK11423549 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:01:01 - Subject: Websites of Interest All, I have just discovered the following and thought some of you may beineterested; www.tommoran.com www.powerfibre.co.uk The UK Rod builders not the Mag ! Tight Lines......Paul from ttalsma@macatawa.org Mon Oct 22 15:04:01 2001 f9MK40424024 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:04:00 - id ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:58:02 -0400 id TH24NQ0T; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:57:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Tips/Source archive Darryl, You da man! Hayashida Darryl wrote: Nobody else giving up their pearls of wisdom?How about this one. Groove your plane sole.Your plane blade will not touch your planing form, staying sharp longer, andthose nicks on the top of your forms will be gone - or at least there willbe a lot less of them.Bruce Conner's Web page tells how you can do it yourself with strips ofsandpaper and two pieces of wood.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:42 AM Subject: Tips/Source archive It's Monday again and I've made some pretty major changes to the tipssite again. (http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/) When I told someone about this tip archive project, I got the response"Good luck getting information from these rodmakers." I didn't believethat for a minute, but I may have found a reason why this person saidthis. Although there is a great amount of communication happening onthe list, I've found a common thread to the responses that I've receivedwhen asking permission to use a tip. Most of the responses start outwith an "I'm not worthy" type of response. It's either that orsomething like "I don't think that tip is that great to be added to thearchive." I'm kind of stumped as to why these thoughts are out there.I know that there are a lot of processes out there that you makers ofsay 10+ rods are doing now that you weren't doing when you started. Whyare you doing it the way you are doing it now compared to when youstarted? That would be a good tip. Also, after reading the latestPowerFibers (thanks for a great publication, Bob), I kind of scratch myhead when I read that Ralph Moon uses the galvanized pipe heat treatingmethod instead of an elaborately built oven (not that I'm saying eithermethod is better, just different). Why is that (Well, the articleanswers that, doesn't it)? I see that he did built an electric oven,but doesn't use it for heat treating. Hmmm. I'm not directing this atany maker in particular, but to the entire group. I think there are alot of people out there that have good ideas that sometimes arereluctant to share them, either because they don't think they are"important" enough or because they don't want to let out a tradesecret. If the reason is the latter, OK, I can accept that, but if it'sthe former, we have to get over that. If it works for you, it will work "get over the top" and build great rods. The only other thing that Ican think of is that everyone is doing the same thing (or so we think). I think a lot of these same things apply to the photo archive projectthat Shawn Pineo has proposed. Enough said, I'm getting down off of my soapbox now.--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htm genealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm >Fromsaweiss@flash.net Mon Oct 22 15:07:28 2001 Received: from pimout2- f9MK7R424522 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:07:29 -0400 Removing epoxy from wraps Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:07:27 -0600 MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 saweiss@flash.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENPeter, I use a short, stiff blade ad slice along the space between the foot ofthe guide and the blank. This releases the guide and the old wrap can bepeeled away. Be careful not to gouge the blank. Steve Before I started assembling rods a friend did me a favor of rebuilding anold cane rod I had picked up at a tag sale (no markings on it) Needed guides replaced, new cork grip and varnish. When he did this he used the epoxystuff for covering wraps for a plastic rod. The rod is 7' 6" it only has 4guides and a stripper, I want to remove old guides and space and add guides to it, when stressed by fly line the line gets large gaps between theguides. Any suggestions? Peter from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Mon Oct 22 15:30:06 2001 f9MKU5426298 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:30:05 - Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive Darryl, I always meant to ask you if you have trouble straightening/pressingnodes after you heat treat the entire half culm this way. I guessI'm leery of too much heat, after reading Milward and turning aculm to ashes with my homemade pipe of fire.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Hayashida Darryl wrote: Blonde Flamed CaneIf you flame the inside only of a split in half culm, the outside willremain straw yellow (blonde - whatever you want to call it). When you flamethe inside of a culm, at first you will have a swirl of orange flame aroundyour torch flame. Flame until the swirl goes away and your torch produces from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Mon Oct 22 15:37:01 2001 f9MKb0426849 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:37:00 - Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:35:22 -0500 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:34:45 -0700 Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive Remember, I am the one who planes and scrapes the enamel side of hisstrips.No heating and pressing needed.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 1:30 PM Cc: Rodmakers ListSubject: RE: Tips/Source archive Darryl, I always meant to ask you if you have trouble straightening/pressingnodes after you heat treat the entire half culm this way. I guessI'm leery of too much heat, after reading Milward and turning aculm to ashes with my homemade pipe of fire.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Hayashida Darryl wrote: Blonde Flamed CaneIf you flame the inside only of a split in half culm, the outside willremain straw yellow (blonde - whatever you want to call it). When you flame the inside of a culm, at first you will have a swirl of orange flame around your torch flame. Flame until the swirl goes away and your torch produces This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Mon Oct 22 15:37:44 2001 f9MKbh426962 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:37:43 - Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:35:03 -0500 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:36:36 -0700 "Rodmakers List" Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive If I had to chose two of the best skills to develop in rodmaking (or atleast in hand planing) it would be splitting and sharpening. The closer youcan get to your finished strip size in a rough strip the less planing youneed to do. For a 2 inch in diameter culm I can get 32 strips, which I do A sharp blade is also a tremendous time saver in hand planing. Sharp enoughto shave with is dull! You should get a plane blade so sharp that you can'tfeel it pull when you cut off a few arm hairs. I use a honing guide andwaterstones to get my blades that sharp.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:42 AM Subject: Tips/Source archive It's Monday again and I've made some pretty major changes to the tipssite again. (http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/) When I told someone about this tip archive project, I got the response"Good luck getting information from these rodmakers." I didn't believethat for a minute, but I may have found a reason why this person saidthis. Although there is a great amount of communication happening onthe list, I've found a common thread to the responses that I've receivedwhen asking permission to use a tip. Most of the responses start outwith an "I'm not worthy" type of response. It's either that orsomething like "I don't think that tip is that great to be added to thearchive." I'm kind of stumped as to why these thoughts are out there. I know that there are a lot of processes out there that you makers ofsay 10+ rods are doing now that you weren't doing when you started. Whyare you doing it the way you are doing it now compared to when youstarted? That would be a good tip. Also, after reading the latestPowerFibers (thanks for a great publication, Bob), I kind of scratch myhead when I read that Ralph Moon uses the galvanized pipe heat treatingmethod instead of an elaborately built oven (not that I'm saying eithermethod is better, just different). Why is that (Well, the articleanswers that, doesn't it)? I see that he did built an electric oven,but doesn't use it for heat treating. Hmmm. I'm not directing this atany maker in particular, but to the entire group. I think there are alot of people out there that have good ideas that sometimes arereluctant to share them, either because they don't think they are"important" enough or because they don't want to let out a tradesecret. If the reason is the latter, OK, I can accept that, but if it'sthe former, we have to get over that. If it works for you, it will work "get over the top" and build great rods. The only other thing that Ican think of is that everyone is doing the same thing (or so we think). I think a lot of these same things apply to the photo archive projectthat Shawn Pineo has proposed. Enough said, I'm getting down off of my soapbox now.-- Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from RHOLDER@SMURFIT.COM Mon Oct 22 15:47:23 2001 f9MKlM428088 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:47:22 - id ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:47:39 -0500 Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive Well here is another to add to this subject. Do you want to try a groovedplane sole before sanding it into your plane. Well put a temporary grooveon your plane. Take two doubled strips of masking tape and tape them tothebottom outside edge of your plane. Leaving a gap or groove down the centerof the sole of you plane. Cut the extra tape off that is covering theplane blade and there you go. If you don't like the feel of the groove inyour plane, pull the tape off. No harm done to the sole of the plane.Also, I have found that the drafting masking tape has worked the best formebecause it is designed not to leave a residue of glue to the surface that itis applied to. Just my two cents. Robert H. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 1:56 PM Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive Nobody else giving up their pearls of wisdom? How about this one. Groove your plane sole. Your plane blade will not touch your planing form, staying sharplonger, and those nicks on the top of your forms will be gone - or at leastthere will be a lot less of them. Bruce Conner's Web page tells how you can do it yourself with stripsof sandpaper and two pieces of wood. Darryl Hayashida from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Oct 22 15:49:48 2001 f9MKnm428467 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:49:48 - Subject: cork Who was it that wanted cork? Who was it that wantedcork? from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Mon Oct 22 15:54:41 2001 f9MKse429071 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:54:40 - Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:53:13 -0500 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:52:32 -0700 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Tips/Source archive I think to get the true feel of a grooved plane you should use teflonstrips. You will get a lot of drag with masking or drafting tape.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 1:48 PM Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive Well here is another to add to this subject. Do you want to try a groovedplane sole before sanding it into your plane. Well put a temporary grooveon your plane. Take two doubled strips of masking tape and tape them tothebottom outside edge of your plane. Leaving a gap or groove down thecenterof the sole of you plane. Cut the extra tape off that is covering theplane blade and there you go. If you don't like the feel of the groove inyour plane, pull the tape off. No harm done to the sole of the plane.Also, I have found that the drafting masking tape has worked the best formebecause it is designed not to leave a residue of glue to the surface thatitis applied to. Just my two cents. Robert H. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 1:56 PM Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive Nobody else giving up their pearls of wisdom?How about this one. Groove your plane sole.Your plane blade will not touch your planing form, staying sharplonger, andthose nicks on the top of your forms will be gone - or at leastthere willbe a lot less of them.Bruce Conner's Web page tells how you can do it yourself with stripsofsandpaper and two pieces of wood.Darryl Hayashida This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Mon Oct 22 15:57:22 2001 f9MKvL429351 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:57:21 - Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:55:53 -0500 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:54:15 -0700 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Tips/Source archive P.S.A groove isn't permanent. If you really don't like it you can sand theentire sole flat again.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 1:48 PM Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive Well here is another to add to this subject. Do you want to try a groovedplane sole before sanding it into your plane. Well put a temporary grooveon your plane. Take two doubled strips of masking tape and tape them tothebottom outside edge of your plane. Leaving a gap or groove down thecenterof the sole of you plane. Cut the extra tape off that is covering theplane blade and there you go. If you don't like the feel of the groove inyour plane, pull the tape off. No harm done to the sole of the plane.Also, I have found that the drafting masking tape has worked the best formebecause it is designed not to leave a residue of glue to the surface thatitis applied to. Just my two cents. Robert H. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 1:56 PM Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive Nobody else giving up their pearls of wisdom?How about this one. Groove your plane sole.Your plane blade will not touch your planing form, staying sharplonger, andthose nicks on the top of your forms will be gone - or at leastthere willbe a lot less of them.Bruce Conner's Web page tells how you can do it yourself with stripsofsandpaper and two pieces of wood.Darryl Hayashida This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Mon Oct 22 16:10:57 2001 f9MLAu401230 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:10:56 - Subject: Re: Tips/Source archive Speaking of splitting, the original description of the vise-and-handsmethod says you must always split in halves, never in thirds. Thisseems reasonable since you are trying to keep the split in the middle strips into thirds, by pulling mainly on the thick side to keepthe split from running out. It worked fine and I got twelve 1/4 inchstrips from four 3/4 inch strips. You don't have to just split inhalves. I'm not sure of Sean Moran invented this method or if it has a different pedigree but whomever it was should get the Nobel Prize ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Mon Oct 22 16:11:49 2001 f9MLBm401386 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:11:49 - Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:09:22 -0500 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:11:43 -0700 "Rodmakers List" Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive Wax the outside "shoulders" of the sole of your grooved plane, using a highquality hard carnuba wax. You will experience a dramatic reduction ofplaning effort, which then can be translated into greater control of theplane once you get used to it. Anticipating the usual question - No I don'tget any transfer of wax to the strip, at least any that I can see or affectsthe glue adherence.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:42 AM Subject: Tips/Source archive It's Monday again and I've made some pretty major changes to the tipssite again. (http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/) When I told someone about this tip archive project, I got the response"Good luck getting information from these rodmakers." I didn't believethat for a minute, but I may have found a reason why this person saidthis. Although there is a great amount of communication happening onthe list, I've found a common thread to the responses that I've receivedwhen asking permission to use a tip. Most of the responses start outwith an "I'm not worthy" type of response. It's either that orsomething like "I don't think that tip is that great to be added to thearchive." I'm kind of stumped as to why these thoughts are out there. I know that there are a lot of processes out there that you makers ofsay 10+ rods are doing now that you weren't doing when you started. Whyare you doing it the way you are doing it now compared to when youstarted? That would be a good tip. Also, after reading the latestPowerFibers (thanks for a great publication, Bob), I kind of scratch myhead when I read that Ralph Moon uses the galvanized pipe heat treatingmethod instead of an elaborately built oven (not that I'm saying eithermethod is better, just different). Why is that (Well, the articleanswers that, doesn't it)? I see that he did built an electric oven,but doesn't use it for heat treating. Hmmm. I'm not directing this atany maker in particular, but to the entire group. I think there are alot of people out there that have good ideas that sometimes arereluctant to share them, either because they don't think they are"important" enough or because they don't want to let out a tradesecret. If the reason is the latter, OK, I can accept that, but if it'sthe former, we have to get over that. If it works for you, it will work "get over the top" and build great rods. The only other thing that Ican think of is that everyone is doing the same thing (or so we think). I think a lot of these same things apply to the photo archive projectthat Shawn Pineo has proposed. Enough said, I'm getting down off of my soapbox now.-- Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from bamboorods@saber.net Mon Oct 22 16:26:45 2001 f9MLQh403748 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:26:44 - for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:26:38 - Subject: Bokstrom 9 foot guide spacing to the list: would anyone who has built the Bokstrom 9 footer have =guide spacing? Would you share it with me. Rod is waiting to be =wrapped.TIA,Chris who = TIA,Chris from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Mon Oct 22 16:39:51 2001 f9MLdo405697 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:39:50 - , "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Al,The Mike Clark rod I have is his Geirach/Best Special Taper, a 2pc 5 wt =Mike made for me in 1993. thanks,losey Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 3:27 PMSubject: RE: False Advertising in line weights - update Peter/Doug/and Folks, Mike Clark rods are anything but noodles. Mike's rods tend to be on =the fast side. Great rods they are. I have two of his: an 8 foot 2 pc 6wght with heavy tips, and a 8 1/2 =foot 3 piece 6 wght Gierach/Best Special. The 2 piece with heavy tips =is my normal rod, and the 3 piece is my travel rod. The cosmetics of mine are excellent - Cherry reel insert, N.S. (one is =engraved), incredible cork, full intermediate wraps, Heddon #35 colored =wraps, all metal blued. I have cast/fished a bunch of Mike's rods from 7 1/2 foot 4 wghts to =his 9 footers. None are slow, all tend to be fast. If you want a full flexing 8 1/2 foot 3 piece 5 weight - then build a =Leonard Model 50 1/2. Doug - When did Mike build your rod? Cheers, Alberta Al-----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 1:37 PM Subject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update Peter,I own a Mike Clark 81/2 foot 5 wt and it is a beautiful rod, a =little shy in the cosmetic department, but overall a very fine rod. I =like Mike's rods well enough to order another. losey Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 4:50 PMSubject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - update I just went out and cast the same rod I mentioned in my earlier =post. This morning I tried it with a 5 and a 6. I just tried it with a =7 and an 8. I have come to the conclusion that the rod is a 7/8. Now, =I am rather peeved about this, because I did not want a 7/8, I wanted =the 5 weight I set out to build. The taper was listed as a 5 weight in =the book I got it from. It does not cast a 5 very well at all. You can =not feel the rod loading behind you on the backcast. My blank came out =nicely, cosmetically and so forth, but I don't even feel like finishing =it anymore. I guess the moral to the story is that you are taking =somebody's taper dimensions completely on faith unless you get to cast a =similar rod beforehand. Maybe someday I will attend a rodmaker's =gathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the way the rod casts =with a 5 weight. I simply can not believe that personal taste is my =problem with the taper. Which leads to another question - does anybody have a good taper = I know many bamboo guys like short rods, but I am not one of them. I =can get over a little extra weight for the better distance and line =control a long rod gives. I was intrigued by John Geirach's writing how =his favorite rod is an 8 1/2 foot 5 weight Mike Clark. I heard a rumor =that Clark's rod may be a bit of a noodle. But I was heartened when I =built an 8 1/2 foot rod for a buddy this spring. It was a Ray Gould 6 =weight taper. When I got done, it turned out to be a 6/7, but I really =loved the way it cast. I was tempted to built another rod based on the =same taper, but to shave a few thousandths off and try for a 5. Problem =is, the tip measurement is only about .065 inches on the original taper. =I don't know if I would trust a tip any smaller than that. Any =suggestions/anecdotes? Peter Collin Al,The Mike Clark rod I have is his = Special Taper, a 2pc 5 wt Mike made for me in 1993. thanks,losey ----- Original Message ----- Grombacher, Alan = pcollin@rochester.rr.com =; Rodmakers Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 = PMSubject: RE: False Advertising = weights - update Peter/Doug/and Folks, have two of his: an 8 foot 2 pc 6wght with heavy tips, and a 8 1/2 = normal rod, and the 3 piece is my travel rod. cosmetics of mine are excellent - Cherry reel insert, N.S. (one is = incredible cork, full intermediate wraps, Heddon #35 colored wraps, = blued. you want a full flexing 8 1/2 foot 3 piece 5 weight - then build a = Model 50 1/2. - When did Mike build your rod? Cheers, Alberta Al RodmakersSubject: Re: False Advertising in line weights - = updatePeter,I own a Mike Clark 81/2 foot 5 wt = beautiful rod, a little shy in the cosmetic department, but overall = fine rod. I like Mike's rods well enough to order =another. losey ----- Original Message ----- = Peter A. Collin = Sent: Friday, October 19, = PMSubject: Re: False = line weights - update I just went out and cast the same = this, because I did not want a 7/8, I wanted the 5 weight I set = nicely, cosmetically and so forth, but I don't even feel like = somebody's taper dimensions completely on faith unless you get to = gathering, and defy anybody to tell me he likes the way the rod = problem with the taper. Which leads to another question - = rod based on the same taper, but to shave a few thousandths off = =Collin from alan.grombacher@pioneer.com Mon Oct 22 17:04:51 2001 f9MM4o408397 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:04:51 - 22 Oct 2001 18:04:27 -0400 id ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:04:27 -0500 rodmakers Subject: RE: Dickerson Book on Ebay Jerry, What about the paperback version of the book? I think I got my copy fromDick Spurr a few years back. Cheers, Alberta Al -----Original Message----- Subject: Dickerson Book on Ebay While there has been a copy of the dickerson book on ebay for$175-$220 forever,another just appeared with an opening bid requiredof $50. URL is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1021532343 You can still buy one direct (I think) for Jerry Stein for about$125. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Oct 22 17:43:18 2001 f9MMhI410022 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:43:18 - f9MMhNZ26248 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:43:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Tips/Source archive Frank,I have been splitting thirds since culm #2. After talking to Sean twoyears ago he mentioned" bend the fat side. It works like a charm. A hint,put the split end of "fat" side against a post or work bench and put somebody weight against the fat side of the culm. The split will stay in lineand not travel off to the narrow side. I agree, you do get a number ofextra strips that way.I had posted this some time ago.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Frank Stetzer wrote: Speaking of splitting, the original description of the vise-and-handsmethod says you must always split in halves, never in thirds. Thisseems reasonable since you are trying to keep the split in the middle strips into thirds, by pulling mainly on the thick side to keepthe split from running out. It worked fine and I got twelve 1/4 inchstrips from four 3/4 inch strips. You don't have to just split inhalves. I'm not sure of Sean Moran invented this method or if it has adifferent pedigree but whomever it was should get the Nobel Prize ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from jojo@ipa.net Mon Oct 22 17:44:25 2001 f9MMiO410130 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:44:24 -0500 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:44:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Alas, they already have, and it's sold here in the States as Bud, Miller,Schlitz, etc., ad nauseum. A dastardly plot that. M-D They WOULDN'T dare!!! A thing can go just so far! At 11:18 AM 10/22/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: As long as don't piss in our beer!Terry Tony Young wrote: It IS strange isn't it? I find it very interesting that it was only a month ago a lot of people upon receiving white powder in the mail would hide it from the cops and try to shove it up their noses, now they hold their noses and CALL the cops. from channer@frontier.net Mon Oct 22 17:57:55 2001 f9MMvq411056 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:57:53 - for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:01:55 - Subject: Re: Tips/Source archive Todd;I think the reason that most of us drop,add, and change our techniquesafter 10 or so rods is that we start out by reading the books and askingnewbie questions here, make some rods, try some things, and come up witha system that makes sense to US instead of someone else. We all work toour own level of retentiveness and it takes a few rods to decide justhow carried away we need to get with each step. It amazes me thatGarrison was able to turn out more than a half a dozen rods a year, hemust have only slept 2 hrs a nite the way he went about it. JohnTodd Talsma wrote: It's Monday again and I've made some pretty major changes to the tipssite again. (http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/) When I told someone about this tip archive project, I got the response"Good luck getting information from these rodmakers." I didn't believethat for a minute, but I may have found a reason why this person saidthis. Although there is a great amount of communication happening onthe list, I've found a common thread to the responses that I've receivedwhen asking permission to use a tip. Most of the responses start outwith an "I'm not worthy" type of response. It's either that orsomething like "I don't think that tip is that great to be added to thearchive." I'm kind of stumped as to why these thoughts are out there.I know that there are a lot of processes out there that you makers ofsay 10+ rods are doing now that you weren't doing when you started. Whyare you doing it the way you are doing it now compared to when youstarted? That would be a good tip. Also, after reading the latestPowerFibers (thanks for a great publication, Bob), I kind of scratch myhead when I read that Ralph Moon uses the galvanized pipe heat treatingmethod instead of an elaborately built oven (not that I'm saying eithermethod is better, just different). Why is that (Well, the articleanswers that, doesn't it)? I see that he did built an electric oven,but doesn't use it for heat treating. Hmmm. I'm not directing this atany maker in particular, but to the entire group. I think there are alot of people out there that have good ideas that sometimes arereluctant to share them, either because they don't think they are"important" enough or because they don't want to let out a tradesecret. If the reason is the latter, OK, I can accept that, but if it'sthe former, we have to get over that. If it works for you, it will work "get over the top" and build great rods. The only other thing that Ican think of is that everyone is doing the same thing (or so we think). I think a lot of these same things apply to the photo archive projectthat Shawn Pineo has proposed. Enough said, I'm getting down off of my soapbox now.--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/index.htmgenealogy pages:http://members.nbci.com/ttalsma/family/index.htm from if6were9@bellsouth.net Mon Oct 22 18:09:33 2001 f9MN9W411761 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:09:32 - ;Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:10:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) I think the reasoning behind the people that are getting the real anthraxletters is quite simple, they are in the media or other high profile positionswhich insures plenty of mass media exposure. This can create the maximumamountof hysteria, fear etc. for a minimum amount of effort, and I'm sorry to sayitseems to be working exactly as intended. Downandacross Rod Company wrote: It does seem like small time stuff, Tony, maybe the work of a militia groupinstead of the Bid Laden gang. WHy go after bank clerks and newsagencies.The only thing I can figure is that these targets interact with the mostpeople who you might want to hit with it, A reporter might go to manyscenesin a day. Restaurants might be a good choice too, but they probably don;tget enough mail to have a suspicious envelope opened without a lot ofcaution.Scary stuff,Bobps., I wonder what the band Anthrax is now thinking about this whole thing.Not that they are active now, but I bet their chances of winning the metalGrammy are getting pretty bleak. I guess Jethro Tull is feeling prettyoptimistic. (It wil be scary to see who followed that line of thought. Anyrock trivia types out there?) -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 5:30 AM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Hello, Tony The thing about anthrax is that it is a spore forming bacterium withimmensesurvival potential. It lasts for years in the environment, and is muchsimpler in the delivery department than the other exotics that youmention.Diseases like Ebola are viral, not bacterial, and the viruses concerned areobligate parasites, fragile outside the designated hosts, and require verysophisticated delivery systems if they are to be used as weapons. Anthraxiskind of "do-it-yourself", although admittedly not as simple as a bit ofpowder in an envelope for the average mug. By the time you get to thestageof having the stuff in that form, you need to have spent the kind ofmoneythat usually is associated with nation states and their weaponsprogrammes. As a veterinarian, I am amazed that so many people are missing the pointwith this anthrax thing. Humans are a relatively resistant species. Many ofthem survive infection. Animals like cattle, sheep, and swine are notresistant, however. They die like flies. And as a logical extension, themost fearful employment of anthrax is a livestock plague - one of the fewbacterial ones. Viruses, as I have said, are harder to deliver. When the cattle start dying of anthax, be very afraid! Peter----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 2:47 PMSubject: Anthrax (a rock band???) Hey guys I just gota tall you about this.I just arrived home after being released from a containment areabecause Ihappened to be about 6 feet from a bank clerk who opened a lettercontaining powder and a note saying it was......you guest it Anthrax.About 10 mins after the phone call to the police, fire dept and ambulancewe were surrounded with yellow bubble suited people.I guess (hope) it was a hoax but we were all given a card with a number tocall if we suddenly feel sick. Basically take two asprin and call in themorning type of thing.It was all quite civilized in fact, were all given a cup of tea and icedvo-vo biscuits (cookies ) while we waited, so while it was the longest I've ever had to wait at the bank it wasn't all bad. I can't help thinking that here in any case if any cases are found to betrue the perpetrators are local right or left wing nuts trying to make apoint they _could_ really let us have it with something like ebola or small pox or bubonic plague or something. Sure, Anthrax can kill but so can a lot of strains of influenza which does spread easily.I mean, why would a mob like Bin Laden's who have such a relaxedattitudetowards life that they use air liners as guided missiles resort to using abacteria that has to be transported almost individually to it's victims and can be isolated? Sounds to me more like a local bunch who don't want tobeinvolved with the outcome of anything more nasty. Tony from piscator@macatawa.org Mon Oct 22 18:55:24 2001 f9MNtN413474 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:55:23 - "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: Tips/Source archive I've always waxed my plane sole for general wood work and also for bamboo.I use whatever car wax is in the garage, or Boeshield spray. (I useboeshield on all my saw tables, and exposed, un-painted metal. Greatstuff.) Brian from bob@downandacross.com Mon Oct 22 19:16:42 2001 f9N0Gb414385 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:16:37 - "rodmakers" Subject: RE: Dickerson Book on Ebay Don;t spend your $150 on this book.Just my opinion, but I would not consider this book (which I have), worththe money or all that well written. It is disjointed at best, and the picsare very poor. For good rodmaker books, I like the Wes Jordan one athousandtimes better. Funny that the author of the good book published the poor one,don't you think?Bobps, I know where there is a Keane book for $280. Who are they trying to kid? -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Dickerson Book on Ebay Jerry, What about the paperback version of the book? I think I got my copy fromDick Spurr a few years back. Cheers, Alberta Al from piscator@macatawa.org Mon Oct 22 19:19:39 2001 f9N0Jc414642 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:19:39 - for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:21:25 - Subject: Rod Tubes them and why? Anybody make their own? Brian own? Brian from LECLAIR123@aol.com Mon Oct 22 19:41:27 2001 f9N0fQ415680 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:41:27 - Subject: Re: Rod Tubes In a message dated 10/22/2001 8:23:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, piscator@macatawa.org writes: Brian,You can get them from Golden Witch, REC,Clear Creek. To name a few. Dave http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from lblove@omniglobal.net Mon Oct 22 20:09:46 2001 f9N19e417066 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:09:41 - Subject: RE: Tips/Source archive You can also use a piece of plate glass, a board or phone book, a strip of80 grit emery cloth(as wide as you wantthe groove)and some sprayglue(3m #77) to form a groove. Glue the emery to the glass with the emery'scenterline spaced half the width of the planeoff the edge of the glass. Use the board or phone book as a guide/fence(butted to the edge of the piece of glass) and"lap" the sole using straight back and forthmotion until the paper stops to cut. Your groove should be about .006 deep,if that's too deep, just give it a quick go with some more emery to the plane sole. Just make sure the blade is installed as it wouldbe when the plane is in use, just donut expose the blade below the level of the top of the groove. laterBrad http://lblove.users.omniglobal.net People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of short termsecurity, deserve neither freedom nor security. -Benjamin Franklin,statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790) *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/22/01 at 12:55 PM Hayashida Darryl wrote: Nobody else giving up their pearls of wisdom?How about this one. Groove your plane sole.Your plane blade will not touch your planing form, staying sharp longer,and from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Oct 22 20:39:56 2001 f9N1dt418482 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:39:55 - SAA28398; Subject: Re: Tips/Source archive Please elaborate. Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Remember, I am the one who planes and scrapes the enamel side of his strips. No heating and pressing needed.Darryl Hayashida from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 22 20:58:57 2001 f9N1wu419586 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:58:56 - Subject: Re: Ferrule fit Jeff,thanks, it seem that most of the ferrules supplied require a great deal offitting?I have always made my own hardware but just recently I have been setting upsome production equipment making it possible to perhaps offercommercially,ferrules that fit, or at least start to fit.I am not sure yet if I want to make ferrules, but being based in Canada itwould be nice to offer something to Canadian amateur rod makers that islessexpensive and perhaps better quality than imported.Terry Jeff Schaeffer wrote: I have only used Bellingers to date, and they have been 0.001 to 0.002oversize. But the other day one fit perfectly right out of the bag with nolapping. Jeff from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 22 21:12:47 2001 f9N2Ck420450 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:12:46 - Subject: Re: Bishop rodmakers gathering 44D23FC07C986BAAF666B0AB" --------------44D23FC07C986BAAF666B0AB "the six strips went together pretty well", what is pretty well? Iguess you mean not that great?'Physically challenged" my arse, you have to be mentally challenged towant to professionally hand plane.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Bob, A rough strip is laid atop an adjustable plastic bed. It washeld in place with a couple of straps. The cutting head traveled on atrack at a constant rate of speed. The cutters can be bought at homedepot etc. and are not anywhere near the cost of other bevellerscutters. The strip was tapered with the tip at .025. We did take 6strips and they went together pretty well. It had a vacum hook up andcompleted a strip quickly. No physically demanding effort at all tothe operator. The mill will be a god send to those makers who havephysical challenges which would otherwise prohibit planning and forthose who are swamped with orders. Now, this machine was a prototypeand a few changes in the track and drive position are planned. I haveheard other mills/bevellers suffer from vibration and have a hard timecutting tips. JW machine had no problem with either one of thoseissues. Basically the operation was so easy;he laid 2 velcro strapover the cane flipped a switch, as the cutter advanced he would removethe straps and then turn it off. Done! Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Downandacross Rod Company Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 7:12 PMSubject: RE: Bishop rodmakers gatheringHi Adam:I have been in on that mill secret for a while. Iam not surprised that it is so awesome. Please tell me more.Was the strip an even .025 or was it tapered to an actualrod? I have JW's wrapper and his beveller. I will get a millif he finsihes his work on it and it does what he says itwill. I trust JW as a good friend. I am sure that if he saysit will do strips that you can glue up, it will.Thanks foryour post,Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Of Adam VigilSent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 9:54 PM Subject: Bishop rodmakers gatheringJust returned from the Bishop Rodmakers Gathering.2 days of socializing, fishing and talking cane.Many people showed up and we were able to castsome wonderful rods. John Zimy was there as wellas Jim Reams and JW so many others , I do notremember there names. A big thank you goes out toChuck Irvinve of Owen River Rods. He and his wifehosted the gathering. They were very gracious andwonderful. Chuck shop is something to behold andwe were in awe. JW brought and demonstrated hisnew prototype milling machine. His demonstrationwent something like this; he walked over to hismill without saying a word,placed a strip, turnedit on in a few seconds a finished strip was donedown to .025. He then sat down without a word. Hisdemo said it all. I enjoyed meeting JW, he hasquite the reputation among many top rodmakers. Hisreputation is basically "his stuff works". Believeme the guys saying it do not say that about manypeople. JW also demonstrated his rod wrappingmachine.Needless to say I know must own one. Iwill be hitting ebay selling some custom knives from my collection to get one. The weather wasclear and cool, the sky was blue and the sunsetsorange. Food was plentiful. I hope to see all youguys next year. Adam Vigil --------------44D23FC07C986BAAF666B0AB I guess you mean not that great?'Physically challenged" my arse, you have to be mentally challengedto want to professionally hand plane.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: rough strip is laid atop an adjustable plastic bed. It was held in placewith a couple of straps. The cutting head traveled on a track at a constantrate of speed. The cutters can be bought at home depot etc. and are notanywhere near the cost of other bevellers cutters. The strip was taperedwith the tip at .025. We did take 6 strips and they went together prettywell. It had a vacum hook up and completed a strip quickly. No physicallydemanding effort at all to the operator. The mill will be a god send tothose makers who have physical challenges which would otherwise prohibitplanning and for those who are swamped with orders. Now, this machine wasa prototype and a few changes in the track and drive position are have heard other mills/bevellers suffer from vibration and have a hardtime cutting tips. JW machine had no problem with either one of thoseissues.Basically the operation was so easy;he laid 2 velcro strap over the caneflipped a switch, as the cutter advanced he would remove the straps and Vigil ----- Original Message ----- From:DownandacrossRod Company Vigil ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 7:12PM Subject: RE: Bishop rodmakersgathering Adam:Ihave been in on that mill secret for a while. I am not surprised that itis so awesome. Please tell me more. Was the strip an even .025 or was ittapered to an actual rod? I have JW's wrapper and his beveller. I willget a mill if he finsihes his work on it and it does what he says it will.I trust JW as a good friend. I am sure that if he says it will do stripsthat you can glue up, it will.Thanks -----OriginalMessage-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of AdamVigilSent: Sunday, October21,2001 9:54 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: BishoprodmakersgatheringJust returned from the BishopRodmakersGathering. 2 days of socializing, fishing and talking cane. Many peopleshowed up and we were able to cast some wonderful rods. John Zimy wasthere rememberthere names. A big thank you goes out to Chuck Irvinve of Owen River Rods.He and his wife hosted the gathering. They were very gracious and wonderful.Chuck shop is something to behold and we were in brought and demonstrated his new prototype milling machine. Hisdemonstrationwent something like this; he walked over to his mill without saying aword,placeda strip, turned it on in a few seconds a finished strip was done down to.025. He then sat down without a word. His demo said it all. I enjoyedmeeting JW, he has quite the reputation among many top rodmakers. Hisreputationis basically "his stuff works". Believe me the guys saying it do not saythat about many people. JW also demonstrated his rod wrappingmachine.Needlessto say I know must own one. I will be hitting ebay selling some custom weather was clear and cool, the sky was blue and the sunsets orange. Foodwas plentiful. I hope to see all you guys next Vigil --------------44D23FC07C986BAAF666B0AB-- from rodwrapp@swbell.net Mon Oct 22 21:52:45 2001 f9N2qj422261 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:52:45 - (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Ebay Deals http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1022406984 I just couldnt resist posting this one.. Thanks Dave http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1022406984 from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Oct 22 22:27:30 2001 f9N3RT423338 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:27:29 - UAA05318; Subject: Re: Bishop rodmakers gathering The machine was a prototype. Therefore it was a 30 second demo. The =strips we put together were not done at the same time. It had been run =earlier. A few of us gathered loose scattered strips off the floor and =the table that had been handled and bent and passed around over 2 days. =So when we placed together random strips next to each other they "went =together pretty well" sums up what we did. Not a hard concept to grasp. = I have heard a certain professional rodmaker on this list is ="Physically challenged as well as Mentally challenged" and they use a =mill. I do not know who they are talking about but I do not think it has =anything to do with a hand plane. As to JW designs he has sold hundreds of his machines and has a sterling =rep because of the quality of his tools. The mill in its prototype = I am sure you would be more then welcome to a Rodmakers Gathering with =your mill so we all can see how it does. Adam Vigil Subject: Re: Bishop rodmakers gathering "the six strips went together pretty well", what is pretty well? I = 'Physically challenged" my arse, you have to be mentally challenged to = a 30 second demo. The strips we put together were not done at the same = had been run earlier. A few of us gathered loose scattered strips off = and the table that had been handled and bent and passed around over 2 = And stop guessing as to what I mean because you would be wrong. = they use a mill. I do not know who they are talking about but I do not = has anything to do with a hand plane. As to JW designs he has sold hundreds= mill in its prototype stage still cut within .001" for a finished strip. = I am sure you would be more then = does. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- T.= Cc: bob@downandacross.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 = PM gathering"the six strips went together pretty well", what is = arse, you have to be mentally challenged to want to professionally = Terry from piscator@macatawa.org Mon Oct 22 22:43:06 2001 f9N3h5424020 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:43:05 - Subject: Re: Rod Tubes Thanks to all who responded. I've always used REC's tubes. When you buy abunch of stuff they end up costing about $18 for fancier tubes than youreally need. But I'm sure that there are nice cheap ones out there, I justhave to find 'em. Now I've got some leads! Thanks, Brian from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Oct 22 22:45:03 2001 f9N3j2424260 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:45:02 - UAA13516 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:45:08 - Subject: glass ferrules? Any Ideas? This problem was solved by the use of flexible ferrules. We first =produced our own hollow glass over thirty years ago and we now very =carefully bond a fine sleeve to the male (butt joint). Coupled with this =is a carefully matched flexible tube fitted to the female (tip). =Together these alter the deflection of the rod for only a very short =section which has a minimal effect on the action. This technique is = Any Ideas? Rods This problem was solved by the use of flexible ferrules. We = produced our own hollow glass over thirty years ago and we now = carefully bond a fine sleeve to the male (butt joint). Coupled = is a carefully matched flexible tube fitted to the female (tip). = these alter the deflection of the rod for only a very short = has a minimal effect on the action. This technique is patented. = http://www.powerfibre.=co.uk/framesall.htm from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Oct 22 22:48:45 2001 f9N3mi424615 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:48:44 - for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:48:41 -0400 Subject: Pretty Well I've only known Adam from the list but I trust his "pretty well" over = guys "works great". :))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html I've only known Adam from the list = his "pretty well" over most guys "works great". :))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from petermckean@netspace.net.au Tue Oct 23 00:11:12 2001 f9N5BB426380 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:11:11 - f9N5BBo24444; Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Hello again, Tony Foot and Mouth disease is again, a virus, and relatively fragile in theenvironment as compared with the spore-forming bacteria, which will survivealmost anywhere for very long periods of time without loss of pathogenicity.Anthrax is a very different livestock disease, and apart from having thecapacity to wipe out huge livestock populations (viruses like F&M actuallyhave a very low mortality rate, though a high morbidity; anthrax has bothhigh morbidity and high mortality) almost totally, infected and dyinganimals provide a reservior of infection for humans. And obviously, in a country like this one, if you devastate the cattle sheepand swine, you have about stuffed the economy. Only some biological agents are targetted at the hairless apes in GBW. Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Rightly or wrongly I'm not especially worried about it at all from mypersonal point of view. I know when I had carpal tunnel surgery every oneof us in the ward got golden staff which made my wounds heal more slowlybut nothing apart from that while a couple of the older guys were reallypretty sick while as far as I can tell anthrax being a live stock thing asyou say I rate my chances of problems as being a bit better than individual strike by meteor but less than death by wading even if I were to have beenexposed. People who've fished with me know I may well die wading [:-)] That's a 100% hit rate for golden staff which can make you pretty sickcompared to something that is unlikely and can be cured reasonably easily.It's a lot worse for flu like the HK flu of years ago.Having said that I do feel sorry for the person who has died and others who possibly may, I'm not just writing the whole this off as a joke. Even so, it's a strange bacteria to use even for live stock destructionbecause I'd have thought F&M would be easier to get a hold of & transmit.It wouldn't be that hard to add an infected animal to a seed herd thensimply spread them around the country. Tony As a veterinarian, I am amazed that so many people are missing the pointwith this anthrax thing. Humans are a relatively resistant species. Many of them survive infection. Animals like cattle, sheep, and swine are notresistant, however. They die like flies. And as a logical extension, themost fearful employment of anthrax is a livestock plague - one of the fewbacterial ones. Viruses, as I have said, are harder to deliver. When the cattle start dying of anthax, be very afraid! Peter /*************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Tue Oct 23 00:43:18 2001 f9N5hH427161 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:43:17 - Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:43:21 +0100 Subject: Re: glass ferrules? I met the two owners of Powerfibres last weekend at the Chatsworth Gameand Fishing fair and had chance to have a look at the rods.As beautifully made the rods are , my personal preference would be for anickel silver ferrule ......as indeed was the general oppinion of theother rodbuilders that were in attendance.That said each to his own , and there are obviously people out there wholike this type of joint.Whats it look like? Well to me it looks like someone has cut the maleand female ends off a hollow glass rod (of the type once fitted withoverfit ferrules i.e not spigot and socket type )and bonded them ontocane then overwrapped the completed joint with silk and varnished asuusual.I am sure the makers would say the joint is not that simple butin essence what I have said is I would think quite close to what hasbeen created...............Paul Adam Vigil wrote: Any Ideas? PowerFibre RodsThis problem was solved by the use of flexible ferrules. We firstproduced our own hollow glass over thirty years ago and we now verycarefully bond a fine sleeve to the male (butt joint). Coupled withthis is a carefully matched flexible tube fitted to the female (tip).Together these alter the deflection of the rod for only a very shortsection which has a minimal effect on the action. This technique ispatented. http://www.powerfibre.co.uk/framesall.htm from ajthramer@hotmail.com Tue Oct 23 01:26:41 2001 f9N6Qe427998 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:26:40 - Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:26:32 -0700 Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:26:32 GMT Subject: Re: Rod Tubes FILETIME=[A880A730:01C15B8B] You can try Black Guard/Los Pinos tubes from Albuquerque. Nice tubes in a variety of colors. about $17.50 and $23.00 with brass fittings. They make the tubes for Scott if you want to see what they look like.A.J. From: "Brian Creek" Subject: Rod TubesDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:21:20 -0400 and why? Anybody make their own? Brian _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from "Marty D. aka \"none" Tue Oct 23 05:37:53 2001 f9NAbq400129 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 05:37:52 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4166. . Clean. Processed in 0.656839 secs); 23 Oct 200110:31:40 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: glass ferrules? I think it is pretty much that simple! I have never used it on Bamboo buthad plans to do it on my personal rods. I bet there is a considerable weightsavings at a point on the rod where it would be noticable. Also the fitcould be lubricated with parrifin and I believe would last longer the NS.The only draw back is that it's "ugly as sin" . I don't believe that BSabout being flexible. Neither NS nor 1" long glass tubes wrapped in nylonare flexible. Marty "paul.blakley" wrote: I met the two owners of Powerfibres last weekend at the Chatsworth Gameand Fishing fair and had chance to have a look at the rods.As beautifully made the rods are , my personal preference would be for anickel silver ferrule ......as indeed was the general oppinion of theother rodbuilders that were in attendance.That said each to his own , and there are obviously people out there wholike this type of joint.Whats it look like? Well to me it looks like someone has cut the maleand female ends off a hollow glass rod (of the type once fitted withoverfit ferrules i.e not spigot and socket type )and bonded them ontocane then overwrapped the completed joint with silk and varnished asuusual.I am sure the makers would say the joint is not that simple butin essence what I have said is I would think quite close to what hasbeen created...............Paul Adam Vigil wrote: Any Ideas? PowerFibre RodsThis problem was solved by the use of flexible ferrules. We firstproduced our own hollow glass over thirty years ago and we now verycarefully bond a fine sleeve to the male (butt joint). Coupled withthis is a carefully matched flexible tube fitted to the female (tip).Together these alter the deflection of the rod for only a very shortsection which has a minimal effect on the action. This technique ispatented. http://www.powerfibre.co.uk/framesall.htm from dannyt@frisurf.no Tue Oct 23 05:56:36 2001 f9NAuZ400504 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 05:56:35 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:50:10+0200 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:50:09+0200 Subject: Re: glass ferrules? This is from Scott web site: "Scott offers three distinct bamboo rod designs. Six-sided models have atraditional moderate cane action. "Glass Ferrule" models are six-sided rodsfit with a special fiberglass ferrule rather than blued nickel silver." from dickay@alltel.net Tue Oct 23 08:25:21 2001 f9NDPK402882 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:25:20 - srv.alltel.net Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:25:24 -0500 Subject: Re: heat gun oven question Tim, Using the oven horizontally should also reduce the load on the heat gunmotor. Heat wants to rise. That's why Hot Air Balloons go up. That's whychimneys work. When trying to blow hot air down into a vertical oven pipe,you are fighting the natural tendency for heat to rise. This puts more of aload on the motor causing it to work harder. 30 years ago, I was working on a furnace project and my boss wanted toknowwhy I had a larger blower motor on a downflow furnace than on an upflowfurnace. He wouldn't accept this concept until I setup both furnaces side would not provide the same airflow on the downflow furnace. The Horizontal furnace of the series used the same motor as the upflowfurnace. Adding an upward pointing elbow to the outlet will also help. This helps topull air through the oven. The opening for the heat gun should be on thebottom side of the oven. Thus the air travels along heating the outlet tubewhich is attached to the inside top of the larger tube and then exitsthrough that smaller outlet tube containing the strips. Thus the smalleroutlet tube gets heated twice. Once by the hot air passing over the outsideof the smaller outlet tube and then through the inside of the tube.Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: heat gun oven question Tim, I had the same problem with my heat gun oven so I now use it on its side.That added almost 75 degrees to my internal temperatures when set upupright. Insulation also helps a lot (that added about 110 degrees), but as Imentioned a few days ago, I haven't been using insulation recently. Theextra temperature I got from using it sideways was enough.---Tim ----- Original Message -----From: Tim Stoltz Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 9:41 AMSubject: heat gun oven question I just finished completing my Neuneman style oven. I use a heat gun thathas a high setting of 1000 degrees. I tried out my oven and could only get I up to 300 degrees after running the gun full boar for 45 min. I wastrying it outdoors because I will need the clearance to get the rod sections in. I was wondering if insulation might help. Any thoughts? Thanks, Tim from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 23 08:34:20 2001 f9NDYH403729 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:34:18 - Subject: Anthrax. NOT rodmaking. Rant that doesn't belong here. Deletenow if not interested. You have been warned. As far as I could tell my little episode with the possibility of being exposed to anthrax and my possible 15 second brush with fame wasn't reported even in the local rag which is exactly as it should be IMHO because unless it's real, people don't need to know about every pathetic little person who calls fire engines to non existent fires and cops to accidents that haven't happened etc. It's all great copy for the news papers and only encourages the nut cases to continue. Now, Peter McKean on list is a vet and a good one, I'm sure there are others on list so if I say something wrong PLEASE jump in and set mestraight.Both Peter's kids are also in our small military so he has quite a stake in all this. Here in Aust we're in the middle of electing a federal gov so all this is being beaten up for all it's worth because as a rule here anyhow standing governments are generally returned during civil crises.To counter the beat up we also have good and proper medical advise about anthrax so not even little old ladies right in the middle of the situation I was in were concerned in the least. In fact I don't think it's even in the wild here so if it was for real it'd certainly make the news alright. We also have pretty good media to distribute this info.The Australian armed forces are Lilliputian in numbers, there is no question of that but we've sent and will send about 1500 personnel and a few ships and planes etc to the Afghan thing presumably as a token force but still which we all here are absolutely behind as our small part. Perth where I live is pretty close to Jakarta who don't much like us right now for two reasons.Firstly the world's largest pop of Moslums live in Indonesia and we're not just paper but are in fact active allies of the US and secondly the Indo's and us have had our differences militarily and still do so a real threat from that quarter is a real but just now unlikely possibility.Add to that it's said Indonesia have been to Iraq to check out the chemical and biological weapons there just before Desert Storm and do in fact have the capability.Happily the Indoensians see the Afghan situation as being secular but of the 500 mil people living there a few may be pissed off enough to dosomething.Knowing all this I'm not even a little bit worried about anthrax personally and the reason is what are the chances? Vanishing close to zero in fact. I know this because it's not actually a human disease, there are symptoms that show well before you get to the stage antibiotics will not fix it, it's hard to catch in the first place and can't be transmitted from person to person. Here in Perth with a pop of about 1.1 mil each Summer there are on average 5-6 very healthy, fit & outgoing kids in their teens die of meningitis simply by swapping spit in drink bottles during football games or rowing etc even though thousands of kids do exactly the same thing without any problems.Each year during Winter a certain number mainly very young and old will die of flu, if a bad strain like Hong Kong from 20 years back comes that number will be quite high even though hundreds of thousands of people catch flu and spend 2 days in bed then back to work none the worse for it.Each year up to 10 or so people will die of Legoneers (sp??) disease by simply breathing air conditioned air although thousands of people work in the same buildings.Car accidents take by far and away the highest number but we all drive.If you live in Perth, Adelaide or Sydney you have to face the small (but not as small as you may think) but distinct possibility of being eaten by a shark. I could go on and on and on.These are afflictions that are out there spreading from person to person or occurring naturally and without any control at all. No antibiotics for virus, no anti shark pills and even airbags in cars aren't 100% proof. I once read the chances of an earth destroying meteor hitting Earth on any given year is about 1:1,000,000, one passed us very closely indeed about 5 years back and we didn't even know it existed until is was gone, had it passed between the moon and Earth in distance it would have taken a large part of the atmosphere with it. Had it not even hit the earth but the moon we'd be in all sorts of trouble too for obvious reasons so we're actually all here reasonably tenuously anyhow.The chances of an individual winning the lotto and getting $1,000,000 on any single draw is in the area of 1:10,000,000, 10 times less than us all being taken out by a meteor but people think they have a good chance especially if they use a system. What sort of chance do people have of getting anthrax and dying from poisoned envelopes unless they are specifically targeted? Almost none and that's presuming you've opened a letter actually containing it which is also vanishingly low unless you are a postal worker or simmilar and don't see a doctor if symptoms begin.I know there have been three people die of it but how many others were also in contact and nothing happened?That's for people. If it gets into the wild or farms though it will no longer be a minor problem for people but a major one because economically it will be a complete and utter disaster and people _will_ get it from animal contact and that's another story. If you if you are concerned about anthrax in the post don't get your info from the local media. Ask somebody who knows like Peter Mc Kean forexample.The little I think I know about it comes from what we were told and what I know speaking to the Dept of Agriculture when I've wanted to import skins and capes etc.Here because luckily so far we don't have a lot of these types of things importation has always been extremely tightly controlled therefore expensive and a real hassle.If you open a letter with white powder close it, put it in a plastic bag and call the yellow bubble suited people.Don't panic and see a doctor.Remain calm until you know for sure some idiot has thrown a rat with ebola in the local water supply, THEN you have something to worry about. Until then we don't have that much to be overly concerned with by comparison.The English along with others with other issues have lived with terror for a very long time with gaps of "peace" ranging from months to years because of WWII carpet bombing, V1 and V2 rockets, IRA etc. I think you'd find they still live in a society with freedom of movement apart from hot spots where snipers are shooting at military and civil targets and have learned to deal with these things without loosing sight of what matters in the long run. Being an Aussie I never thought I'd back the UK in anything but credit where it's due.Just now I'm much more concerned with shark attack myself, if these bastards have us all running scared they've already beaten us and yes, I swim in the ocean. Tony from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 23 08:36:07 2001 f9NDa5404060 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:36:05 - Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Then we're all in deep sh!t if the letters start getting sent to cows. I know that's flippant but as long as the terror factor of anthrax is being directed by letters in the post at people there are worse things to send, that's my point of it and I personally would need something a little more like small pox or something to worry me overly in this particular case.I have no doubt at all in the least of the potential of outbreaks in the wild and on farms and the economic and personal disaster that would occur if it got out of hand though.I mean, if it happened it'd really be all over for life in the West as we know it.I believe part of the reason all the buffalo and most of the pigs and antelope were shot out in the Northern Territory prior to the area becoming Kakadu was because of the fear of the live stock becoming a reservoir for F&M and anthrax etc, so far it seems to have worked fingers crossed.There were a hell of a lot of buffalo there at that time. I shot out 2 barrels in a bit over 6 months. Tony At 04:11 PM 10/23/01 +1100, Peter McKean wrote: Hello again, Tony Foot and Mouth disease is again, a virus, and relatively fragile in theenvironment as compared with the spore-forming bacteria, which willsurvivealmost anywhere for very long periods of time without loss ofpathogenicity.Anthrax is a very different livestock disease, and apart from having thecapacity to wipe out huge livestock populations (viruses like F&M actuallyhave a very low mortality rate, though a high morbidity; anthrax has bothhigh morbidity and high mortality) almost totally, infected and dyinganimals provide a reservior of infection for humans. And obviously, in a country like this one, if you devastate the cattle sheepand swine, you have about stuffed the economy. Only some biological agents are targetted at the hairless apes in GBW. Peter----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:37 PMSubject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Rightly or wrongly I'm not especially worried about it at all from mypersonal point of view. I know when I had carpal tunnel surgery every oneof us in the ward got golden staff which made my wounds heal moreslowlybut nothing apart from that while a couple of the older guys were reallypretty sick while as far as I can tell anthrax being a live stock thing asyou say I rate my chances of problems as being a bit better than individual strike by meteor but less than death by wading even if I were to havebeenexposed. People who've fished with me know I may well die wading [:-)] That's a 100% hit rate for golden staff which can make you pretty sickcompared to something that is unlikely and can be cured reasonablyeasily.It's a lot worse for flu like the HK flu of years ago.Having said that I do feel sorry for the person who has died and others who possibly may, I'm not just writing the whole this off as a joke. Even so, it's a strange bacteria to use even for live stock destructionbecause I'd have thought F&M would be easier to get a hold of &transmit.It wouldn't be that hard to add an infected animal to a seed herd thensimply spread them around the country. Tony As a veterinarian, I am amazed that so many people are missing thepointwith this anthrax thing. Humans are a relatively resistant species. Many of them survive infection. Animals like cattle, sheep, and swine are notresistant, however. They die like flies. And as a logical extension, themost fearful employment of anthrax is a livestock plague - one of thefewbacterial ones. Viruses, as I have said, are harder to deliver. When the cattle start dying of anthax, be very afraid! Peter /*************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 23 08:36:09 2001 f9NDa7404066 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:36:08 - Subject: Re: glass ferrules? f9NDa9404067 I guess it's what you get used to but I personally find it hard to think of using anything other than NS or bronze if you must on a bamboo rod.Even the bamboo ferrules which look pretty neat don't grab me that much. Tony At 06:41 AM 10/23/01 +0100, paul.blakley wrote: I met the two owners of Powerfibres last weekend at the Chatsworth Gameand Fishing fair and had chance to have a look at the rods.As beautifully made the rods are , my personal preference would be for anickel silver ferrule ......as indeed was the general oppinion of theother rodbuilders that were in attendance.That said each to his own , and there are obviously people out there wholike this type of joint.Whats it look like? Well to me it looks like someone has cut the maleand female ends off a hollow glass rod (of the type once fitted withoverfit ferrules i.e not spigot and socket type )and bonded them ontocane then overwrapped the completed joint with silk and varnished asuusual.I am sure the makers would say the joint is not that simple butin essence what I have said is I would think quite close to what hasbeen created...............Paul Adam Vigil wrote: Any Ideas? PowerFibre RodsThis problem was solved by the use of flexible ferrules. We firstproduced our own hollow glass over thirty years ago and we now verycarefully bond a fine sleeve to the male (butt joint). Coupled withthis is a carefully matched flexible tube fitted to the female (tip).Together these alter the deflection of the rod for only a very shortsection which has a minimal effect on the action. This technique ispatented. http://www.powerfibre.co.uk/framesall.htm /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from irish-george@chartermi.net Tue Oct 23 09:13:21 2001 f9NEDK406068 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:13:20 - 2001 10:13:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Dickerson Book on Ebay Last fall I got my copy from Bob Marriott's. I forget what I paid but IKNOW it wasn't in excess of $50. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Dickerson Book on Ebay Jerry, What about the paperback version of the book? I think I got my copy fromDick Spurr a few years back. Cheers, Alberta Al -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:19 AM Subject: Dickerson Book on Ebay While there has been a copy of the dickerson book on ebay for$175-$220 forever,another just appeared with an opening bid requiredof $50. URL ishttp://cgi.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1021532343 You can still buy one direct (I think) for Jerry Stein for about$125. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from irish-george@chartermi.net Tue Oct 23 09:19:00 2001 f9NEJ0406575 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:19:00 - Subject: Re: Dickerson Book on Ebay "Abrupthumb", the seller in the auction mentioned, IS Jerry Stein. I knowthat because he emailed me after I lost out on a Hawes rod to him in an eBayauction. George Bourke ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Dickerson Book on Ebay While there has been a copy of the dickerson book on ebay for$175-$220 forever,another just appeared with an opening bid requiredof $50. URL ishttp://cgi.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1021532343 You can still buy one direct (I think) for Jerry Stein for about$125. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Oct 23 09:57:06 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9NEv6409518 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:57:06 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:57:10 -0500 "RodMakers List (E-mail)" Subject: MORE RE: Anthrax. NOT rodmaking. Rant that doesn't belong here. D elete now if not interested. You have been warned. Tony -- Glad you sent this even tho it's not rodmaking, one of the pleasures of thelist is hearing from people you feel you know a bit from all over the world.The oddest thing to me about the coverage here in the states, aside from itsobsessiveness which I suppose I've come to expect, is that there has been solittle mention in the national media about what this could do to livestock.There are big parts of the US where, if all the cows and pigs died, thelocal economic damage would be proportionately at least as bad as thatsuffered in NYC. Maybe this has been covered in some local media but Ihaven't seen it. Maybe they know it's important but are showing restraintbecause they don't want to give anyone ideas -- and maybe the Taliban isjust a boy scout troop trying to invent new ways to earn badges. Come to think of it Bill Lamberson, a lister who works at the sameUniversity I do in Columbia, Missouri, is an expert on livestock -- Bill,how do you assess this threat? Barry from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Tue Oct 23 10:24:55 2001 f9NFOt411393 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:24:55 - Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:24:55 -0400 Subject: RE: glass ferrules? Has anyone seen or better yet tried on of these rods? Is this marketing orcraftsmanship? Having dealt with fiberglass for a long time I question if itlife span is as long as N/S ferrules, maybe someone in country can enlightenuse. Just wondering, Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker -----Original Message----- Subject: glass ferrules? Any Ideas? PowerFibre RodsThis problem was solved by the use of flexible ferrules. We first producedour own hollow glass over thirty years ago and we now very carefully bond afine sleeve to the male (butt joint). Coupled with this is a carefullymatched flexible tube fitted to the female (tip). Together these alter thedeflection of the rod for only a very short section which has a minimaleffect on the action. This technique is patented. http://www.powerfibre.co.uk/framesall.htm 0DocumentEmail Ha=s anyoneseen or better yet tried on of these rods? Is this marketing or =craftsmanship?Having dealt with fiberglass for a long time I question if it life span =is aslong as N/S ferrules, maybe someone in country can enlighten use. Justwondering, Tim. Signature" UpstreamAlways, TimDoughty Rod =Maker -----OriginalMessage-----From:owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Monday, October22, =200111:47 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: glass =ferrules? Any PowerFibre͐=2; Rods This problem was solved by the =use offlexible ferrules. We first produced our own hollow glass over thirty =yearsago and we now very carefully bond a fine sleeve to the male (butt =joint).Coupled with this is a carefully matched flexible tube fitted to the =female(tip). Together these alter the deflection of the rod for only a very =shortsection which has a minimal effect on the action. This technique is =patented. http://www.powerfibre.=co.uk/framesall.htm from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 23 11:07:35 2001 f9NG7X413898 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:07:33 - "RodMakers List (E-mail)" Subject: Anthrax. NOT rodmaking. Rant that doesn't belong here. Deletenow if not interested. You have been warned. Glad you sent this even tho it's not rodmaking, one of the pleasures of thelist is hearing from people you feel you know a bit from all over the world.The oddest thing to me about the coverage here in the states, aside fromitsobsessiveness which I suppose I've come to expect, is that there has beensolittle mention in the national media about what this could do to livestock. Peter McKean on list will no doubt chime in here as he already has. He is quite concerned this may find it's way into the animal population where it could create problems of a mammoth scale if it wasn't stopped right away.His post is on list so I wont repeat it but he seems to feel it's worse than F&M and we all heard and read about the problems Europe and Britain in particular have faced with this. Of course once anthrax makes it into the live stock population people will start contracting it from being in contact. Herds will be destroyed and it could easily become way out of hand pretty quickly. There are big parts of the US where, if all the cows and pigs died, thelocal economic damage would be proportionately at least as bad as thatsuffered in NYC. Maybe this has been covered in some local media but Ihaven't seen it. Maybe they know it's important but are showing restraintbecause they don't want to give anyone ideas -- and maybe the Taliban isjust a boy scout troop trying to invent new ways to earn badges. Hell, Australia is nothing much more than an open cut mine, chip forests and livestock paddocks economically. You could say good by down here if it took off.I do think however there is a cell of terrorists if you wanted to credit them with that job description, who do have the means of carrying out attacks of the nature we're seeing but almost all the other cases which prove false are copy cats.Not related, just copied without the means of carrying it out. One other thing I simply can't get out of my head is this seems so much like a batman movie with the perpetrator being the Joker or something. Real over the top Hollywood stuff like somebody went looking for the most outrageous way of scaring people with very little effort. Tony ************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Tue Oct 23 12:03:28 2001 f9NH3M416564 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:03:22 - Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:03:25 +0100 Subject: Re: glass ferrules? My thoughts entirely.........Paul Tony Young wrote: I guess it's what you get used to but I personally find it hard to think ofusing anything other than NS or bronze if you must on a bamboo rod.Even the bamboo ferrules which look pretty neat don't grab me that much. Tony At 06:41 AM 10/23/01 +0100, paul.blakley wrote: I met the two owners of Powerfibres last weekend at the ChatsworthGameand Fishing fair and had chance to have a look at the rods.As beautifully made the rods are , my personal preference would be for anickel silver ferrule ......as indeed was the general oppinion of theother rodbuilders that were in attendance.That said each to his own , and there are obviously people out there wholike this type of joint.Whats it look like? Well to me it looks like someone has cut the maleand female ends off a hollow glass rod (of the type once fitted withoverfit ferrules i.e not spigot and socket type )and bonded them ontocane then overwrapped the completed joint with silk and varnished asuusual.I am sure the makers would say the joint is not that simple butin essence what I have said is I would think quite close to what hasbeen created...............Paul Adam Vigil wrote: Any Ideas? PowerFibre RodsThis problem was solved by the use of flexible ferrules. We firstproduced our own hollow glass over thirty years ago and we now verycarefully bond a fine sleeve to the male (butt joint). Coupled withthis is a carefully matched flexible tube fitted to the female (tip).Together these alter the deflection of the rod for only a very shortsection which has a minimal effect on the action. This technique ispatented. http://www.powerfibre.co.uk/framesall.htm /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from baconrod@gsmrinc.com Tue Oct 23 12:15:26 2001 f9NHFP417472 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:15:25 - Subject: Re: glass ferrules? Tony.A few years ago Trout and Salmon Mag. did a article on graphite ferrules on Bamboo rods. I will dig out the piece and post it to the group. I tried graphite on some Duracanes and they worked ok, but I still like the looks of a classic ferrule on bamboo.Best Hal. from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Oct 23 13:30:38 2001 f9NIUb421206 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:30:37 - NAA08025 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 Subject: Re: glass ferrules? I was playing around trying to make a one-piece hexagonal glasssleeve that would make a tip-over-butt ferrule. My first tries didn't work well and I never got much farther. If someone wantsto play with it I'll tell you what I tried, so you can avoid it. I think these ferrules would be nice to have for personal rods,experimenting with tapers etc. Too many ideas, not enough time.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from homes-sold@home.com Tue Oct 23 17:53:30 2001 f9NMrU414705 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:53:30 - femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:53:30 -0700 Subject: Poem I absolutely love this....kinda says it all....- Don't know who the author was... Two thousand one, nine elevenFive thousand plus arrive in heavenAs they pass through the gate,Thousands more appear in wait A bearded man with stovepipe hatSteps forward saying,"Lets sit, lets chat" They settle down in seats of cloudsA man named Martin shouts out proud"I have a dream!" and once he didThe Newcomer said, "Your dream still lives." Groups of soldiers in blue and grayOthers in khaki, and green then say"We're from Bull Run, Yorktown, the Maine"The Newcomer said, "You died not in vain." from a man on sticks one could hear"The only thing we have to fear.The Newcomer said, "We know the rest,trust us sir, we've passed that test." "Courage doesn't hide in cavesYou can't bury freedom, in a grave,"The Newcomers had heard this voice beforeA distinct Yankees twang from Hyannisport shores A silence fell within the mistSomehow the Newcomer knew that thisMeant time had come for her to sayWhat was in the hearts of the five thousand plus that day "Back on Earth, we wrote reports,Watched our children play in sportsWorked our gardens, sang our songsWent to church and clipped coupons We smiled, we laughed, we cried, we foughtUnlike you, great we're not" The tall man in the stovepipe hatStood and said, "don't talk like that!Look at your country, look and seeYou died for freedom, just like me" Then, before them all appeared a sceneOf rubbled streets and twisted beamsDeath, destruction, smoke and dustAnd people working just 'cause they must Hauling ash, lifting stones,Knee deep in hellBut not alone "Look! Blackman, Whiteman, Brownman, YellowmanSide by side helping their fellow man!"So said Martin, as he watched the scene"Even from nightmares, can be born a dream." Down below three firemen raisedThe colors high into ashen hazeThe soldiers above had seen it beforeOn Iwo Jima back in '44 The man on sticks studied everything closelyThen shared his perceptions on what he saw mostly"I see pain, I see tears,I see sorrow - but I don't see fear." "You left behind husbands and wivesDaughters and sons and so many livesare suffering now because of this wrongBut look very closely. You're not really gone. All of those people, even those who've never met youAll of their lives, they'll never forget youDon't you see what has happened?Don't you see what you've done?You've brought them together, together as one. With that the man in the stovepipe hat said,"Take my hand," and from there he ledfive thousand plus heroes, Newcomers to heavenOn this day, from Lazybee45@aol.com Tue Oct 23 18:38:56 2001 f9NNct424570 Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) avyoung@iinet.net.au In a message dated 10/22/01 7:19:51 AM Central Daylight Time, bob@downandacross.com writes: AH now there is the rub. Look at who the targets were! Democratic elected officials (Daschel) who are seen as "Left wing liberals" Major news agencies (ABC NBC CBS) who are seen as "Liberal controlled and left leaning main stream media" Somehow Fox was not hit (very much an organ of official conservatism) nor were any republican politicians. The "bank clerks and postal carriers" were simply "Collateral damage"I personally don't care who did this. Right wing, left wing, Radical Islam radical Christian or anyone else. They should be executed publicly as enemies of the state in much the same way that the "enemys of the king"were executed in England. A great great great granduncle was treated that wayin 1308. (William Wallace, and yes it is TRUE) Hang them, slowly, then before they die, disembowel them, burn the waste, draw and quarter them and hang their head on a stick over the city gates as a warning! These people are EVIL from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 23 18:55:53 2001 f9NNtp428325 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:55:52 - petermckean@netspace.net.au Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) I don't know how many of the white powder calls are simply cranks and how many are serious so it's a bit hard to say weather or not they are connected to bin laden, another cell of idiots or even to each other but if you kill some of the messengers the ones that survive are sure as hell going to tell you all about it and in no uncertain way.It's this and the fact (at least I think it's a fact from what I gather) only politicians of left wing leanings have been targeted that makes me think it's a domestic bunch of the kind that blow up buildings with trucks loaded with explosives, IRA tactics basically. I wont comment on the Aust cases because I'm pretty confident at least so far they are all hoaxes. I'm not surprised at all the banks have been the targets here because they are userous in their fees, have had a lot of press in the last couple of years and people are a bit sick of high bank fees while banks make astronomical profits and continue cutting staffing levels. It's stupid things like that that set people off in these copy cat things. Don't forget there doesn't need to be any logical reason for stupidity if that isn't a contradiction of terms. This is just another form of sniping from a tall building but safer for the sniper. Tony At 07:34 PM 10/23/01 -0400, Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/22/01 7:19:51 AM Central Daylight Time,bob@downandacross.com writes: The only thing I can figure is that these targets interact with the mostpeople who you might want to hit with it, >> AH now there is the rub. Look at who the targets were! Democraticelectedofficials (Daschel) who are seen as "Left wing liberals" Major news agencies(ABC NBC CBS) who are seen as "Liberal controlled and left leaning mainstream media" Somehow Fox was not hit (very much an organ of officialconservatism) nor were any republican politicians. The "bank clerks andpostal carriers" were simply "Collateral damage"I personally don't care who did this. Right wing, left wing, RadicalIslam radical Christian or anyone else. They should be executed publicly asenemies of the state in much the same way that the "enemys of the king"wereexecuted in England. A great great great granduncle was treated that wayin1308. (William Wallace, and yes it is TRUE) Hang them, slowly, then beforethey die, disembowel them, burn the waste, draw and quarter them andhangtheir head on a stick over the city gates as a warning! These people areEVIL /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from blitzenrods@yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 19:06:42 2001 f9O06f400921 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:06:42 - Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:06:47 PDT Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) So, you're saying that an angry conservativerepublican who watches too much O'Reilly Factor ismailing anthrax to their own personal hit list? "Democratic elected officials""Republican politicians" interesting choice of titles. --- Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/22/01 7:19:51 AM CentralDaylight Time, bob@downandacross.com writes: The only thing I can figure is that these targetsinteract with the mostpeople who you might want to hit with it, >> AH now there is the rub. Look at who the targetswere! Democratic elected officials (Daschel) who are seen as "Left wingliberals" Major news agencies (ABC NBC CBS) who are seen as "Liberal controlledand left leaning main stream media" Somehow Fox was not hit (very much anorgan of official conservatism) nor were any republican politicians. The "bank clerks and postal carriers" were simply "Collateral damage"I personally don't care who did this. Rightwing, left wing, Radical Islam radical Christian or anyone else. They shouldbe executed publicly as enemies of the state in much the same way that the"enemys of the king" were executed in England. A great great greatgranduncle was treated that way in 1308. (William Wallace, and yes it is TRUE) Hangthem, slowly, then before they die, disembowel them, burn the waste, draw andquarter them and hang their head on a stick over the city gates as awarning! These people are EVIL __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from homes-sold@home.com Tue Oct 23 19:58:35 2001 f9O0wY412179 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:58:34 - femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: Dressing Snake Guide Feet I'm curious, what is the preferred method of dressing snake guide feet? =Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of this thread.Don I'm curious, what is the preferred = dressing snake guide feet? Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of this = thread.Don from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 20:04:50 2001 f9O14n413683 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:04:49 - 23 Oct 2001 18:04:54 PDT Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet casual for general fishing, fulldress for the test. timothy--- Don Schneider wrote: I'm curious, what is the preferred method ofdressing snake guide feet? Maybe Todd can even getsome tips out of this thread.Don ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from pcollin@rochester.rr.com Tue Oct 23 20:33:45 2001 f9O1Xi419822 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:33:44 - f9O1WkF28897 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:32:47 - Subject: Roll Call for WNY rodmakers gathering Will everybody who will be at Joe Perrigo's house on saturday the 27th =please chime in? I need to know how much food to buy! Peter Collin Will everybody who will be at Joe = buy! PeterCollin from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 23 20:37:16 2001 f9O1bG420781 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:37:16 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:37:13 - Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Nah, couldn't be. The Democrats are doing it to themselves in an attempt togain public sympathy, and to draw attention to themselves. The RepublicanRoad Show is wearing a little thin for them. ;o) I thought this was funny:http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2001/10/15/tomo/index.html Oh, yeah, this is a rodmaking board, isn't it? Well, guess we need to havesome rodmaking content here, so I worked on rods today, nothing unusualabout that, but I didn't do it for very long because I was tired of makingrods and I am ready to go to SRG to get away for a while and fish so that Iwon't be so tired of making rods all the time but the testing I have beendoing has broken the monotony somewhat though it is very slow goingwatchingstrips adsorb into equilibrium, somewhat akin to watching paint dry, bumpersrust, sidewalks crack, trees grow, and raisins shrivel but it could beworse, I'm sure. M-D ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) So, you're saying that an angry conservativerepublican who watches too much O'Reilly Factor ismailing anthrax to their own personal hit list? "Democratic elected officials""Republican politicians" interesting choice of titles. --- Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/22/01 7:19:51 AM CentralDaylight Time,bob@downandacross.com writes: The only thing I can figure is that these targetsinteract with the mostpeople who you might want to hit with it, >> AH now there is the rub. Look at who the targetswere! Democratic electedofficials (Daschel) who are seen as "Left wingliberals" Major news agencies(ABC NBC CBS) who are seen as "Liberal controlledand left leaning mainstream media" Somehow Fox was not hit (very much anorgan of officialconservatism) nor were any republican politicians.The "bank clerks andpostal carriers" were simply "Collateral damage"I personally don't care who did this. Rightwing, left wing, RadicalIslam radical Christian or anyone else. They shouldbe executed publicly asenemies of the state in much the same way that the"enemys of the king" wereexecuted in England. A great great greatgranduncle was treated that way in1308. (William Wallace, and yes it is TRUE) Hangthem, slowly, then beforethey die, disembowel them, burn the waste, draw andquarter them and hangtheir head on a stick over the city gates as awarning! These people areEVIL __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from lblove@omniglobal.net Tue Oct 23 20:42:55 2001 f9O1gs421905 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:42:54 - Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet --=====_100388775841=_ Don,I dress mine down with a 1" white aluminium oxidewheel that is mounted on a 1/8" shaft. I pick up the stones I chuck the shaft in my three jaw chuck attached to the lathe and run about 300 rpm. The low speed allows formore control for me and does not seem to "burn" the feetas bad as at a higher speed. The low speed also is gentleron my finger if I happen to get them in the way. Remember to wear your safety glasses,Brad People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of short termsecurity, deserve neither freedom nor security. -Benjamin Franklin,statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790) *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/23/01 at 6:08 PM Don Schneider wrote:I'm curious, what is the preferred method of dressing snake guide feet?=Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of this thread.Don --=====_100388775841=_ Don,I dress mine down with a 1" white aluminium oxide stones I chuck the shaft in my three jaw chuck attached to the more control for me and does not seem to "burn" the feet on my finger if I happen to get them in the way. Remember to wear your safety glasses,Brad People who are willing to give up freedom for the sakeof short termsecurity, deserve neither freedom nor security. -Benjamin Franklin,statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********On 10/23/01 at 6:08 PM Don Schneiderwrote: I'm curious, what is the preferred method of dressing snake guide feet? Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of this thread.Don --=====_100388775841=_-- from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 23 20:46:29 2001 f9O1kS422770 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:46:28 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:46:33 - Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet Buy Snake Brand guides to begin with. M-D I'm curious, what is the preferred method of dressing snake guide =feet? Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of this thread.Don Buy Snake Brandguides to = with. M-D Don = Schneider I'm curious, what is the preferred = dressing snake guide feet? Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of = thread.Don from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Oct 23 20:52:05 2001 f9O1q4424096 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:52:04 - Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:52:04 -0700 , Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) FILETIME=[7B080A20:01C15C2E] Bob, Amen! ----- Original Message ----- avyoung@iinet.net=.au Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) In a message dated 10/22/01 7:19:51 AM Central Daylight Time,bob@downandacross.com writes: AH now there is the rub. Look at who the targets were! Democratic elect=edofficials (Daschel) who are seen as "Left wing liberals" Major news agen=cies(ABC NBC CBS) who are seen as "Liberal controlled and left leaning mainstream media" Somehow Fox was not hit (very much an organ of officialconservatism) nor were any republican politicians. The "bank clerks andpostal carriers" were simply "Collateral damage"I personally don't care who did this. Right wing, left wing, RadicalIslam radical Christian or anyone else. They should be executed publicly=asenemies of the state in much the same way that the "enemys of the king" w=ereexecuted in England. A great great great granduncle was treated that wa=y in1308. (William Wallace, and yes it is TRUE) Hang them, slowly, then befo=rethey die, disembowel them, burn the waste, draw and quarter them and hangtheir head on a stick over the city gates as a warning! These people areEVIL Bob, =- Original Message ----- From: Lazybee45@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 7:40 petermck=ean@netspace.net.au; avyoung@iinet.net.au Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Time,bob= clerks=and news agencies.The only thing I can figure is that these targets = were!&n=bsp; Democratic electedofficials (Daschel) who are seen as "Left wing= "Li= Fox=was not hit (very much an organ of officialconservatism) nor were an= emies of the state in much the same way that the "enemys of the king" wer= = Hang them, slowly, then beforethey die, disembowel them, burn thewas=te, draw and quarter them and hangtheir head on a stick over the city= areEVIL from bob@downandacross.com Tue Oct 23 21:02:56 2001 f9O22t426343 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:02:55 - Subject: RE: Roll Call for WNY rodmakers gathering Hi Peter:I will be there with bells on. Let me know what to bring. Thanks,Bob-- ---Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:32 PM Subject: Roll Call for WNY rodmakers gathering Will everybody who will be at Joe Perrigo's house on saturday the 27thplease chime in? I need to know how much food to buy! Peter Collin Peter: be there with bells on. Let me know what to bring. =Thanks,Bob CollinSent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:32 gatheringWill everybody who will be at Joe = buy! Collin from bob@downandacross.com Tue Oct 23 21:06:34 2001 f9O26X427267 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:06:33 - , Subject: RE: Anthrax (a rock band???) You got it bud. (The only white powder I have is the ammonium chloride formy Urac). You're safe. I laugh every time I see the big bag if that next tothe big brown bag of walnut powder next to the scale. If the DEA ever comesinto my shop, do you think they will believe that they are actually forbuilding rods?Bob-----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:52 PM petermckean@netspace.net.au;avyoung@iinet.net.au Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Bob, Amen! Yougot it = white powder I have is the ammonium chloride for my Urac). You're safe. = every time I see the big bag if that next to the big brown bag of walnut = next to the scale. If the DEA ever comes into my shop, do you think they = believe that they are actually for building rods?Bob -----Original Message-----From: John 2001 = band???)Bob, Amen! from channer@frontier.net Tue Oct 23 21:09:28 2001 f9O29Q428099 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:09:26 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:14:00 - Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet I still dress the "toes" on Snake Brand if I am making a new rod andusing 3/0, it goes up the foot better is it is tapered more, no problemwith them as is with 2/0. I use a point file.John from lblan@provide.net Tue Oct 23 21:15:15 2001 f9O2FE429569 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:15:14 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:15:18 - Subject: RE: Anthrax (a rock band???) Heh... couple that with the ceramic powder, the atomized aluminum, thesilicon carbide flours for lapping, and a lot of "pipes" lying aboutdisguised as rod tubes, tubes for forms, etc. I wouldn't stand a chance!Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu RodCompanySent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 10:07 PM avyoung@iinet.net.au Subject: RE: Anthrax (a rock band???) You got it bud. (The only white powder I have is the ammonium chloride formy Urac). You're safe. I laugh every time I see the big bag if that next tothe big brown bag of walnut powder next to the scale. If the DEA ever comesinto my shop, do you think they will believe that they are actually forbuilding rods?Bo b Heh... couple = the ceramic powder, the atomized aluminum, the silicon carbide flours = forms, etc. I wouldn't stand a chance!Larry Blan CompanySent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 10:07 = avyoung@iinet.net.auCc: RodmakersPostSubject:= Anthrax (a rock band???)Yougot it = only white powder I have is the ammonium chloride for my Urac). You're = laugh every time I see the big bag if that next to the big brown bag = powder next to the scale. If the DEA ever comes into my shop, do you = rods? from lblan@provide.net Tue Oct 23 21:19:15 2001 f9O2JE400567 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:19:14 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:19:19 - Subject: RE: Dressing Snake Guide Feet I have run across one interesting method. A rubber Cratex wheel with ahalf- round groove filed into it. The top of the guide foot is placed intothe groove, it shapes the foot as you taper it, works quite well. About theonly secret is choosing the correct texture of wheel, not to hard, not tosoft. I see no reason why it would not work with a mounted alum oxide wheel,either. Don't recall where I came across this. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 10:11 PMCc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet I still dress the "toes" on Snake Brand if I am making a new rod andusing 3/0, it goes up the foot better is it is tapered more, no problemwith them as is with 2/0. I use a point file.John from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 23 21:19:37 2001 f9O2Ja400719 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:19:37 -0500 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:19:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Just tell them the truth. Say, "You got me boys. I knew it was wrong, =and now you've caught me. Take me to the big house." Go quietly, and =snicker in your cell all night long as they await the lab results. Great =use of tax money, don't you think? M-D You got it bud. (The only white powder I have is the ammonium chloride = next to the big brown bag of walnut powder next to the scale. If the DEA =ever comes into my shop, do you think they will believe that they are =actually for building rods?Bob Just tell them the truth. Say, = boys. I knew it was wrong, and now you've caught me. Take me to the big = Go quietly, and snicker in your cell all night long as they await the = results. Great use of tax money, don't you think? M-D Downandacross RodCompany = Yougot it = only white powder I have is the ammonium chloride for my Urac). You're = laugh every time I see the big bag if that next to the big brown bag = powder next to the scale. If the DEA ever comes into my shop, do you = rods?Bob from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Oct 23 21:21:06 2001 f9O2L5401273 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:21:05 - Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:21:02 -0700 Subject: unsubscribe FILETIME=[870FE2D0:01C15C32] Unsubscribe. Unsubscribe. from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Oct 23 21:21:52 2001 f9O2Lp401582 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:21:51 - Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:21:52 -0700 Subject: Re-subscribe FILETIME=[A47229F0:01C15C32] Re-subscribe. Re-subscribe. from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 23 21:24:21 2001 f9O2OK402392 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:24:20 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:24:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet I use the cordless Dremel with a fine stone. www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html stone. www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from Lazybee45@aol.com Tue Oct 23 21:29:48 2001 f9O2Tm403592 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:29:48 - Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) In a message dated 10/23/01 8:38:09 PM Central Daylight Time, jojo@ipa.netwrites: republican who watches too much O'Reilly Factor ismailing anthrax to their own personal hit list? "Democratic elected officials""Republican politicians" interesting choice of titles. Let's not read into this something that I didn't mean.ACtually I was thinking of a militant militia group of some sort rather than some radical republican who is getting too close to "talk radio", but to me a politician is a politician, The Democratic elected officials are politicians too. I just don't think of politicians as "our friends" is all. You can tell is isn't ME because ALL the fools in DC didn't get letters! Fortunately (or unfortunately) I don't HATE anyone that much, and I am smart enough to know that nobody who is "important" opens his own mail! Why "target" mail clerks? that is simply stupid! More stupid that they didn't know that these guys have gatekeepers in all aspects of life!In my life I don't HATE politicians, I simply don't trust ANY of them! Too many of them see elected office as a means to get money and powerand favors ranging from freebies to .....well, freebies of another sort. They may not ALL lie, but if you go in thinking that they do, you will never be unpleasantly surprised!mark from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 23 21:32:01 2001 f9O2W0404287 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:32:00 - (authenticated) Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:31:48 -0700 Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet --------------6C1813E20862705D79FA1085 MD, Like John, I dress the feet of the Snake Brand guides toa little less steep slope. I wrap down the foot rather thanup, and the shallower slope help keep things nice andtight. Next time I get ready to order some Snake Brandguides, I'm thinking of asking Mike McCoy to make up aspecial batch just the way I like them. To grind the slope, I use a Dremel tool with afiberglass reinforced cut-off wheel, running at 30,000rpm's. Yes, I know that's fast. And yes, you can messthings up in a hurry. Then again, I can do a bag of 100guides in about 30 minutes. I hold the guides in a smallpin vice to keep my fingers a little farther from thespinning wheel. One of the big advantages of the SnakeBrand guides is that the feet are all very close to the samelength, so no shortening is necessary. After using the Dremel to establish the slope, I run theunderside of each guide over a small diamond hone for a passor two to get rid of any burrs. Then I use a Cratex conemounted on a mandrel in the lathe, turning about 100 rpm'sto polish the guide slick as a whistle. Yes, it is a littlebit like ironing your underwear. Chances are no one willever see it, but I would know it's there. And poor guidesand wraps are the most common flaw turning aestheticallygood rods into mediocre rods, in my opinion. My wrapfinishing still has lots of room for improvement, I admit. Since I only use bronze guides these days, I then toucha Brown Sharpie or Pantone Marker to the places where I haveremoved the color. After the marker dries for half an hour,I give it another coat. Even under clear wraps, the feetshow no evidence of grinding. Just my way,Harry PS -- See you on my way to SRG Thursday morning early.... Jojo DeLancier wrote: Buy Snake Brand guides to begin with. M-D From:Don SchneiderI'm curious, what is the preferred method ofdressing snake guide feet? Maybe Todd can evenget some tips out of this thread.Don -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------6C1813E20862705D79FA1085 MD, guides I get ready to order some Snake Brand guides, I'm thinking of asking MikeMcCoy to make up a special batch just the way I like them. fiberglass in a small pin vice to keep my fingers a little farther from the spinning the feet are all very close to the same length, so no shortening is necessary. run the underside of each guide over a small diamond hone for a pass or a mandrel in the lathe, turning about 100 rpm's to polish the guide slick And poor guides and wraps are the most common flaw turning aesthetically has lots of room for improvement, I admit. touch a Brown Sharpie or Pantone Marker to the places where I haveremoved PS -- See you on my way to SRG Thursday morning early....Jojo DeLancier wrote: BuySnake Brand guides to begin with. M-D From:DonSchneider method of dressing snake guide feet? Maybe Todd can even get some tipsout of this thread.Don -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------6C1813E20862705D79FA1085-- from timklein@qwest.net Tue Oct 23 21:33:56 2001 f9O2Xt404830 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:33:55 - (65.100.172.37) Subject: Re: heat gun oven question Dick wrote: The opening for the heat gun should be on thebottom side of the oven. Thus the air travels along heating the outlet tube which is attached to the inside top of the larger tube and then exitsthrough that smaller outlet tube containing the strips. Thus the smalleroutlet tube gets heated twice. Once by the hot air passing over the outside of the smaller outlet tube and then through the inside of the tube. This is exactly how my oven is set up and you've confirmed my reasoningbehind laying it on its side. One other thing I noticed is that the temperature seems quite a bit more even than when I used it vertically. My theory is that the hottest air (thatdirectly out of the air gun) is balanced with the coolest air (the air thatis exiting the chamber after traveling the longest distance). On the farend, two roughly equal temperatures that have traveled half their routeddistance, are very similar to this balanced high and low at the businessend.---Tim from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 23 21:35:22 2001 f9O2ZL405351 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:35:21 - (authenticated) Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:35:09 -0700 Subject: Re: unsubscribe John, Wrong email address. Go to the Rodmakers Page and usethe address listed there. See you Thursday,Harry John Long wrote: Unsubscribe. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 23 21:42:17 2001 f9O2gG407159 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:42:16 -0500 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:42:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet I know that on the older guides they weren't very subtle on the ends of =the feet. The newer ones are way flatter, and wider, too, at the front =end. Occasionally I have to remove the burr on the bottom of the ends of =the feet, but not too often.Good info on your super secret technique for the guide feet. M-D Like John, I dress the feet of the Snake Brand guides to a little =less steep slope. I wrap down the foot rather than up, and the =shallower slope help keep things nice and tight. Next time I get ready =to order some Snake Brand guides, I'm thinking of asking Mike McCoy to = I know that on theolder = weren't very subtle on the ends of the feet. The newer ones are way = wider, too, at the front end. Occasionally I have to remove the burr on = bottom of the ends of the feet, but not toooften.Good info on yoursuper = technique for the guide feet. M-D Harry= to order some Snake Brand guides, I'm thinking of asking Mike McCoy to = a special batch just the way I like them. = from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 23 21:44:29 2001 f9O2iS407788 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:44:28 -0500 (authenticated) Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:44:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet --------------5E7D9C0AD453F21686BDD413 MD, No secrets here. Well, maybe a few, but nottoo many. I learned the Cratex trick through thislist. I think John Zimny originally posted it. Harry Jojo DeLancier wrote: Good info on your super secret technique for theguide feet. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------5E7D9C0AD453F21686BDD413 MD, John Zimny originally posted it. Jojo DeLancier wrote:Goodinfoon your super secret technique for the guidefeet.-- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------5E7D9C0AD453F21686BDD413-- from jojo@ipa.net Tue Oct 23 21:45:12 2001 f9O2jB408101 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:45:12 -0500 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:45:16 -0400 Subject: Re: unsubscribe I think John's way too short on sleep, and maybe that white powder over bythe scales has escaped into the atmosphere thereby rendering him a stateofblissful exuberance and unfeeling apathy. Then again, maybe John is trying to not so subtly tell us to get back ontopic and cut out all the crap. M-D John, Wrong email address. Go to the Rodmakers Page and usethe address listed there. See you Thursday,Harry John Long wrote: Unsubscribe. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from johnsabina@home.com Tue Oct 23 21:49:19 2001 f9O2nI409423 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:49:18 - ;Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:49:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet Don: One approach that I saw at the Canadian Cane gathering last Spring =looked interesting, but I have not personally tried it. You use a flat =stone disk in a Dremel tool. Using a diamond grinding wheel dresser, =form a small radiused groove in the stone. Then just set the top of =each guide foot into the groove and taper away. Unfortunately, I don't =recall who showed this approach. JJS Subject: Dressing Snake Guide Feet I'm curious, what is the preferred method of dressing snake guide =feet? Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of this thread.Don Don: One approach that I saw at the Canadian Cane = who showed this approach. JJS ----- Original Message ----- Don = Schneider Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001= PMSubject: Dressing Snake Guide =Feet I'm curious, what is the preferred = dressing snake guide feet? Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of = thread.Don from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 23 21:59:20 2001 f9O2xK411926 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:59:20 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:59:22 -0400 Subject: Re:Anthrax (a rock band???) I have too agree with you Mark. That (smile in your face, I would not lie to you) look most politicians =give,drives me crazy. You know, the read my lips syndrome. Then turn around =and do the opposite.Your word is your honor. It seems too often that lies are excepted in =society today. And politicians are the masters of the trade. www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html I have too agree with you =Mark. lie's. syndrome. Then turn around and do the opposite.Your word is your honor. It = that lies are excepted in society today. And politicians are the masters = trade. www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from dnorl@qwest.net Tue Oct 23 22:06:03 2001 f9O362413711 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:06:02 - (63.228.47.152) Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet My prefered method is to use Snake Brand guides. You dont have to dress =them they are right out of the package.Dave-----Original Message-----From: Don Schneider Subject: Dressing Snake Guide Feet I'm curious, what is the preferred method of dressing snake guide =feet? Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of this thread.Don My prefered method is to useSnake = You dont have to dress them they are right out of the =package.Dave -----Original = Don Schneider <homes- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, October 23, 2001 7:59 PMSubject: Dressing= Guide FeetI'm curious, what is the preferred = dressing snake guide feet? Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of = thread.Don from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 23 22:07:16 2001 f9O37E414127 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:07:15 - Subject: Re:Anthrax (a rock band???) Can't confess to an answer but the problem is everybody expects polies (strain for politician) to have answers, the faster and cheaper for themselves the better. If any of them truthfully say they don't know, will have to think about it or simply can't do they wont last long as polies. That's why I'm just a critic [:-)] Tony At 10:59 PM 10/23/01 -0400, Tony Miller wrote: I have too agree with you Mark.Politician = lie I can't stand lie's.That (smile in your face, I would not lie to you) look most politicians give,drives me crazy. You know, the read my lips syndrome. Then turn aroundand do the opposite.Your word is your honor. It seems too often that lies are excepted in society today. And politicians are the masters of the trade.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 23 22:08:27 2001 f9O38Q414579 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:08:26 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:08:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet JohnThat's what I use, that flat stone that came with my Dremel kit.I have the diamond dressing stone, so I'll have to try that.:)) Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html John = stone, = have to try that.:))Thanks:)) that sounds like a great idea= Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from dnorl@qwest.net Tue Oct 23 22:13:34 2001 f9O3DX416068 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:13:33 - (63.228.47.152) Subject: Waara node press John Long has Bill Waara model node presses for sale. They are a great =tool.Dave John Long has Bill Waara modelnode = sale. They are a great tool.Dave from Lazybee45@aol.com Tue Oct 23 22:13:38 2001 f9O3Db416092 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:13:37 - Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) petermckean@netspace.net.au,avyoung@iinet.net.au In a message dated 10/23/01 9:07:39 PM Central Daylight Time, bob@downandacross.com writes: HAH! You know, the Coke heads have GOT to be worried about now! I bet business is way down for the dealers.You know, It reallymakes me laugh. A few years ago back when I wasyoung and very foolish, a "dealer" had as his goal to smoke for free. Everyone I knew was plotting and scheming to go score enough so that they could sell enough to have free smoke for a month, a couple of months or whatever. Now "Dealers" are serious business men who do what they can to limitcompetition, increase their profit margins and cut the dead wood from theirorganizations. They NEED to make that BMW payment dude!As a friend once said to me. "Ya know, we may not have been wonderful, but we didn't hurt people back then. The worst thing I can recall was getting stoned and driving slow! Now these guys are KILLING people!" Said friend is now an executive with a major multinational corporation. A good guy, now on his trophy wife.mark from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 23 22:18:35 2001 f9O3IY417609 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:18:34 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:18:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) That's the problem with them.They know if they make a mistake and have to admit to it,their political career is in the toilet.Everybody can make a mistake, its how we deal with our mistakes that are =important.If you can't carry a load ,don't pretend to be a truck.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html That's the problem with =them.They know if they make a mistake and= to it, toilet.Everybody can make a mistake, its how= our mistakes that are important.If you can't carry a load ,don't = truck.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 22:23:11 2001 f9O3NA418861 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:23:10 -0500 23 Oct 2001 20:23:11 PDT Subject: srg ride? to all, my travel companion to srg has to has to backout of the weekend. would there be any one traveling from chicago or indianapolis that is heading to srg icould catch a ride with? i live in danvile illinoisbut could meet you in champaign or springfield. timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 23 22:26:13 2001 f9O3QC419832 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:26:12 - (authenticated) Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:26:01 -0700 Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) --------------D6676818FD7052546BCB10E0 Tony Miller wrote: It seems too often that lies are excepted insociety today. I think you mean accepted, rather than"excepted". And who are we as a bunch offishermen to look down on liars? :-)))Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------D6676818FD7052546BCB10E0 Tony Miller wrote: toooften that lies are excepted in society today. are we as a bunch of fishermen to look down on liars?:-)))Harry-- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------D6676818FD7052546BCB10E0-- from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 23 22:30:26 2001 f9O3UQ420900 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:30:26 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:30:29 -0400 Subject: worst speller/anthrax There I go again can't spell. Spell checker doesn't account for =education.LOLNow you know Harry, fish stories are all true LOL :))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html doesn't account for education.LOLNow you know Harry, fish stories are = :))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Oct 23 22:34:33 2001 f9O3YW421344 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:34:32 - UAA14671 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:34:32 - Subject: John Zimny John, Your website wont come up. Please send me your email address. I have =that taper ready to send. Adam Vigil John, Your website wont come up. Pleasesend = email address. I have that taper ready to send. AdamVigil from canazon@mindspring.com Tue Oct 23 22:41:33 2001 f9O3fW421809 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:41:32 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:41:31 - Subject: re: dressing guide feet i believe it carl or ted ( all those canadians look alike) who showed it =to me somewhere along the way. i think it was also in the planing form.mike i believe it carl or ted ( all those = alike) who showed it to me somewhere along the way. i think it was also = planing form. mike from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Oct 23 23:05:59 2001 f9O45w422913 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:05:58 - Subject: Re: dressing guide feet It was Carl O'Connor's idea to use the diamond wheel to maake a groove =to shaape guide feet. Do you really think Carl is as good looking as =me? It was Carl O'Connor's idea to use the = as good looking as me? from bamboorods@saber.net Tue Oct 23 23:16:36 2001 f9O4GU423453 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:16:31 - for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:16:27 - Subject: John Long John, please email me off list. Thank-you John, please email me off = Thank-you from petermckean@netspace.net.au Wed Oct 24 05:28:15 2001 f9OASE429615 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 05:28:14 - f9OAS8H44394 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:28:09 Subject: Dickerson book Years ago, when I bought my copy of the Dickerson book, I was supplied =with a soft-covered book. Was there, then, a hard cover edition either =earlier or later? As a quick comment as well, I must say that I agree with the person who =commented that it was not a very well-written or well-presented book. =Very disorganised and disjointed, poor construction of subject material, =and no sense at all of just where the author wanted to get with his =subject; I value mine as a record of some aspects of the man who was =Lyle Dickerson, but its literary merit sits right down there with the =worst of them. Peter Years ago, when I bought my copy ofthe = book, I was supplied with a soft-covered book. Was there, then, a hard = edition either earlier or later? As a quick comment as well, I must say= well-presented book. Very disorganised and disjointed, poor construction = subject material, and no sense at all of just where the author wanted to = with his subject; I value mine as a record of some aspects of the man = of them. Peter from petermckean@netspace.net.au Wed Oct 24 05:42:03 2001 f9OAg2400019 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 05:42:02 - f9OAg3E46495; Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet Don I run a pretty low tech hobby rodbuilding setup here, and don't run to a =lathe even. I dress mine with a Dremel (cordless kind), using those =little brittle cutting wheels that come about a squillion to the pack. =I use the side of the wheel, low speed, hand held guide, and it seems to = Like most of rod-building, it works better if you don't go at it like a =bull at a gate, but just take your time. It's meant to take up time. =That's why it's called a "pastime". All the best Peter Peter Subject: Dressing Snake Guide Feet I'm curious, what is the preferred method of dressing snake guide =feet? Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of this thread.Don Don I run a pretty low tech hobby = here, and don't run to a lathe even. I dress mine with a Dremel = using those little brittle cutting wheels that come about a = the pack. I use the side of the wheel, low speed, hand held guide, and = to do a good job. Like most of rod-building, it works = "pastime". Peter Peter ----- Original Message ----- Don = Schneider Sent: Wednesday, October 24, = PMSubject: Dressing Snake Guide =Feet I'm curious, what is the preferred = dressing snake guide feet? Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of = thread.Don from bob@downandacross.com Wed Oct 24 05:57:47 2001 f9OAvk400367 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 05:57:46 - Subject: RE: Dressing Snake Guide Feet Harry:Let us know if Mike will do them your way. I like wrapping down also, but Ihave had to stop because the wraps are never tight enough at the end of tehguide. Wrapping from the blank to the guide works fine, but I have alwaysthought that it was easier to get perfectly sized wraps from working down from off the guide. Get to the blank, insert loop, make five turns, viola!THe Snake Brand guides would make this even easier.Thanks, Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 10:31 PM Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet MD,Like John, I dress the feet of the Snake Brand guides to a little lesssteep slope. I wrap down the foot rather than up, and the shallower slopehelp keep things nice and tight. Next time I get ready to order some SnakeBrand guides, I'm thinking of asking Mike McCoy to make up a special batchjust the way I like them. To grind the slope, I use a Dremel tool with a fiberglass reinforcedcut-off wheel, running at 30,000 rpm's. Yes, I know that's fast. And yes,you can mess things up in a hurry. Then again, I can do a bag of 100 guidesin about 30 minutes. I hold the guides in a small pin vice to keep myfingers a little farther from the spinning wheel. One of the big advantagesof the Snake Brand guides is that the feet are all very close to the samelength, so no shortening is necessary. After using the Dremel to establish the slope, I run the underside ofeach guide over a small diamond hone for a pass or two to get rid of anyburrs. Then I use a Cratex cone mounted on a mandrel in the lathe, turningabout 100 rpm's to polish the guide slick as a whistle. Yes, it is a littlebit like ironing your underwear. Chances are no one will ever see it, but Iwould know it's there. And poor guides and wraps are the most common flawturning aesthetically good rods into mediocre rods, in my opinion. My wrapfinishing still has lots of room for improvement, I admit. Since I only use bronze guides these days, I then touch a BrownSharpie or Pantone Marker to the places where I have removed the color.After the marker dries for half an hour, I give it another coat. Even underclear wraps, the feet show no evidence of grinding. Just my way,Harry PS -- See you on my way to SRG Thursday morning early.... Jojo DeLancier wrote: Buy Snake Brand guides to begin with. M-D From:Don SchneiderI'm curious, what is the preferred method of dressing snake guidefeet? Maybe Todd can even get some tips out of this thread.Don- --- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- Harry: know if Mike will do them your way. I like wrapping down also, but I = stop because the wraps are never tight enough at the end of teh guide. = from the blank to the guide works fine, but I have always thought that = easier to get perfectly sized wraps from working down from off the = the blank, insert loop, make five turns, viola! THe Snake Brand guides = make this even easier.Thanks, Bob BoydSent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 10:31 jojo@ipa.netCc: = to order some Snake Brand guides, I'm thinking of asking Mike McCoy to = guides in a small pin vice to keep my fingers a little farther from = that the feet are all very close to the same length, so no shortening = underside of each guide over a small diamond hone for a pass or two to = lathe, turning about 100 rpm's to polish the guide slick as a = are the most common flaw turning aesthetically good rods into mediocre = a Brown Sharpie or Pantone Marker to the places where I have removed = Buy Snake Brand guides = = is the preferred method of dressing snake guide feet? Maybe Todd = get some tips out of this = from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Wed Oct 24 06:25:41 2001 f9OBPe400833 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 06:25:40 - for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:25:47 - Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) At 11:12 PM 10/23/2001 -0400, you wrote: In a message dated 10/23/01 9:07:39 PM Central Daylight Time,bob@downandacross.com writes: into my shop, do you think they will believe that they are actually for building rods? >> HAH! You know, the Coke heads have GOT to be worried about now! I betbusiness is way down for the dealers. Heh, I heard Billy Crystal said something the other night at the benefit in DC: "It's the first time I've ever seen musicians running away from white powder......" ;^} Mark from pcollin@rochester.rr.com Wed Oct 24 06:55:15 2001 f9OBtE401517 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 06:55:14 - f9OBsOF14873 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:54:24 - Subject: Directions to Joe's house from Rochester Come down the 390. get off at the Mount Morris exit. Take a left at =the light , into the village. Take a left at the first light in town, =then an immediate right at the next light (within about 100 yards of =each other). That is route 408. Take that route south to the village =of Nunda. At the 4- way stoplight in the middle of the village, take a =right onto Rt. 436. Go 5 miles west, under the railroad overpass, down =the hill, and over the genesee river bridge in Portageville. Make the =right elbow bend by the Genesee Falls Inn, then climb the hill. At the =stopsign, mae a right hand turn. Go a quarter mile, look for entrance =to Letchworth State Park. Immediately across road from park entrance is =Griffith Road. Take a left onto that. Go for a couple miles. Look for =the big dip that takes you across the bridge over East Koy Creek. Joe =is within sight of the bridge, on the right in the tannish trailer. =There ought to be a sort of maroonish panelled van in the driveway. Anybody wanting directions from Buffalo should ask Joe. He knows the =quickest way, and I can never remember all the turns he uses. Pete Collin the = left at the first light in town, then an immediate right at the next = driveway. Anybody wanting directions fromBuffalo = uses. PeteCollin from bob@downandacross.com Wed Oct 24 07:26:12 2001 f9OCQA402072 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:26:11 - Subject: RE: Dickerson book Hi Peter:It was me, book critic extraodinare. Actually, SWMBO would say I criticizeeverything.My liking for the book comes from the fact that we are lucky to haveanything on the classic guys, especially someone of Mr. DIckerson's caliber.I think the real depth comes up in the chapter comparing the Dickerson rodsto other rods from famous makers. What a bunch of bunk. Look at Wayne,George Maurer, Jack Howell, Bob Milward, or Ray Gould's book. Now those arewell edited and organized.How are the Divine and Heddon books? Are they worth getting?Thanks,Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 6:28 AM Subject: Dickerson book Years ago, when I bought my copy of the Dickerson book, I was suppliedwith a soft-covered book. Was there, then, a hard cover edition eitherearlier or later? As a quick comment as well, I must say that I agree with the person whocommented that it was not a very well-written or well-presented book. Verydisorganised and disjointed, poor construction of subject material, and nosense at all of just where the author wanted to get with his subject; Ivalue mine as a record of some aspects of the man who was Lyle Dickerson,but its literary merit sits right down there with the worst of them. Peter Peter:It was me, book critic extraodinare. Actually, SWMBO would say = criticize everything. liking for the book comes from the fact that we are lucky to have = the classic guys, especially someone of Mr. DIckerson's caliber. I think = real depth comes up in the chapter comparing the Dickerson rods to other = from famous makers. What a bunch of bunk. Look at Wayne, George Maurer,= organized. are the Divine and Heddon books? Are they worth =getting?Thanks,Bob McKeanSent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 6:28 = rodmakersSubject: Dickerson bookYears ago, when I bought my copy of = book, I was supplied with a soft-covered book. Was there, then, a hard = edition either earlier or later? As a quick comment as well, I must = agree with the person who commented that it was not a very = well-presented book. Very disorganised and disjointed, poor = subject material, and no sense at all of just where the author wanted = with his subject; I value mine as a record of some aspects of the man = worst of them. Peter from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 24 07:30:30 2001 f9OCUT402443 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:30:29 - (authenticated) Wed, 24 Oct 2001 05:30:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet --------------55D2378F47BDBE049D94999F Bob, I'll let you know, but it won't be anytimesoon. Last time I bought guides I got quite afew. At 10-12 rods per year, I only use about150-200 snakes a year. Someone dropped me a notesaying that the guides Mike is producing thesedays have a shallower angle at the toe, so thepoint may be moot. I end my wraps only one turn past the end ofthe foot, then use two turns of tipping. I evencount the number of turns so that all the wrapsare the same length. With the Pearsall'sGossamer, I use 25 turns on the smaller guides,and 30 turns on the larger snakes. Stripperguides take more turns, but I don't remember the#'s off the top of my head. When counting turns, I stop at 20 to insertthe tie-off loop (4lb Maxima tippet material).Make five more turns, and quit. If it doesn'tcover the guide, I messed up somewhere. To keep things from getting loose, I burnishthe wraps well before cutting off the tag end,then pull the tag end really snugly to tightenthings up again. Hope this helps,Harry Downandacross Rod Company wrote: Let us know if Mike will do them your way. Ilike wrapping down also, but I have had to stopbecause the wraps are never tight enough at theend of teh guide. Wrapping from the blank to theguide works fine, but I have always thought thatit was easier to get perfectly sized wraps fromworking down from off the guide. Get to theblank, insert loop, make five turns, viola! THeSnake Brand guides would make this even easier. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------55D2378F47BDBE049D94999F Bob, saying that the guides Mike is producing these days have a shallower angleat the toe, so the point may be moot. the #'s off the top of my head. off If it doesn't cover the guide, I messed up somewhere. wraps well before cutting off the tag end, then pull the tag end reallysnugly to tighten things up again. Downandacross Rod Company wrote:Letus know if Mike will do them your way. I like wrapping down also, but Ihave had to stop because the wraps are never tight enough at the end ofteh guide. Wrapping from the blank to the guide works fine, but I havealways thought that it was easier to get perfectly sized wraps from workingdown from off the guide. Get to the blank, insert loop, make five turns,viola! THe Snake Brand guides would make this eveneasier. -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------55D2378F47BDBE049D94999F-- from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 24 08:49:11 2001 f9ODnA405152 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:49:10 -0500 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:49:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Dickerson book Bob, similarity in certain Payne and Dickerson tapers. Wonder who was zooming =whom? M-D I think the real depth comes up in the chapter comparing the Dickerson =rods to other rods from famous makers. What a bunch of bunk. Thanks,BobFrom: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = MAJOR SNIPPeter Bob, without = please elaborate. I've noticed a similarity in certain Payne and = tapers. Wonder who was zooming whom? M-D Downandacross RodCompany = think the real depth comes up in the chapter comparing the Dickerson = other rods from famous makers. What a bunch of =bunk. Thanks,Bob McKeanYears ago, when I bought my copy of = Dickerson book, MAJOR SNIPPeter from flytyr@southshore.com Wed Oct 24 08:51:50 2001 f9ODpn405449 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:51:49 - f9ODpqZ21204; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:51:52 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Dressing Snake Guide Feet Harry,I talked to Mike about the feet on the guides atthe SLC show. When I got my new guides last weekthe feet were considerably shallower that theprevious guides.I get the Chrome guides so the feet would be alittle thicker than the others.Mike had some problems with some machinery in theshop but has it all cleared up now.The new guides I got are real nice.Will talk to you tomorrow.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Harry Boyd wrote: Bob, I'll let you know, but it won't be anytimesoon. Last time I bought guides I got quite afew. At 10-12 rods per year, I only use about150-200 snakes a year. Someone dropped me anote saying that the guides Mike is producingthese days have a shallower angle at the toe, sothe point may be moot. I end my wraps only one turn past the end ofthe foot, then use two turns of tipping. Ieven count the number of turns so that all thewraps are the same length. With the Pearsall'sGossamer, I use 25 turns on the smaller guides,and 30 turns on the larger snakes. Stripperguides take more turns, but I don't remember the#'s off the top of my head. When counting turns, I stop at 20 to insertthe tie-off loop (4lb Maxima tippet material).Make five more turns, and quit. If it doesn'tcover the guide, I messed up somewhere. To keep things from getting loose, I burnishthe wraps well before cutting off the tag end,then pull the tag end really snugly to tightenthings up again. Hope this helps,Harry Downandacross Rod Company wrote: Let us know if Mike will do them your way. Ilike wrapping down also, but I have had tostop because the wraps are never tight enoughat the end of teh guide. Wrapping from theblank to the guide works fine, but I havealways thought that it was easier to getperfectly sized wraps from working down fromoff the guide. Get to the blank, insert loop,make five turns, viola! THe Snake Brand guideswould make this even easier. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from gjm80301@yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 08:52:20 2001 f9ODqI405563 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:52:19 - Wed, 24 Oct 2001 06:52:25 PDT Subject: Re: Anthrax (a rock band???) Well, I think that Fox would have been honored to join the majornetworks. I'm sure that Peter Jennings is still mad that Tom Brokawgot his first. Looks to me like they just went for max exposure. On the political side, I would say it's tough to draw conclusionsbased upon a sample of one. I suspect it's the exposure thing again- Daschle is on camera more than anybody but Bush and Bush would betough to reach. --- Tony Young wrote: I don't know how many of the white powder calls are simply cranksand how many are serious so it's a bit hard to say weather or not they are connected to bin laden, another cell of idiots or even to eachother but if you kill some of the messengers the ones that survive are sure ashell going to tell you all about it and in no uncertain way.It's this and the fact (at least I think it's a fact from what Igather) only politicians of left wing leanings have been targeted thatmakes me think it's a domestic bunch of the kind that blow up buildings withtrucks loaded with explosives, IRA tactics basically. I wont comment on the Aust cases because I'm pretty confident atleast so far they are all hoaxes. I'm not surprised at all the banks havebeen the targets here because they are userous in their fees, have had a lotof press in the last couple of years and people are a bit sick of highbank fees while banks make astronomical profits and continue cuttingstaffing levels. It's stupid things like that that set people off in thesecopy cat things. Don't forget there doesn't need to be any logical reason stupidity if that isn't a contradiction of terms. This is justanother form of sniping from a tall building but safer for the sniper. Tony At 07:34 PM 10/23/01 -0400, Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/22/01 7:19:51 AM Central Daylight Time,bob@downandacross.com writes: The only thing I can figure is that these targets interact with the most people who you might want to hit with it, >> AH now there is the rub. Look at who the targets were! Democratic elected officials (Daschel) who are seen as "Left wing liberals" Major news agencies (ABC NBC CBS) who are seen as "Liberal controlled and left leaning main stream media" Somehow Fox was not hit (very much an organ of official conservatism) nor were any republican politicians. The "bank clerks and postal carriers" were simply "Collateral damage"I personally don't care who did this. Right wing, left wing, Radical Islam radical Christian or anyone else. They should be executed publicly as enemies of the state in much the same way that the "enemys of the king" were executed in England. A great great great granduncle was treated that way in 1308. (William Wallace, and yes it is TRUE) Hang them, slowly, then before they die, disembowel them, burn the waste, draw and quarter them and hang their head on a stick over the city gates as a warning! These people are EVIL /*************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from cw@vanion.com Wed Oct 24 08:52:40 2001 f9ODqd405696 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:52:39 - for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:57:24 - Subject: Polishing I have done some varnish work on my rods, and need to polish out some =tiny bubbles. What is the best cloth/abrasive to use with Brownell's 3f =polish to get some results without taking off too much varnish, and =dulling the finish?Thanks I have done some varnish work on my rods, and need= out some tiny bubbles. What is the best cloth/abrasive to use with = polish to get some results without taking off too much varnish, and = finish?Thanks from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed Oct 24 09:27:52 2001 f9OERp407840 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:27:51 - JAA01474 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 Subject: Re: heat gun oven question Those who use your heat gun ovens horizontally...do you have a wirescreen to support the strips or do they just lay in the tube?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from dnorl@qwest.net Wed Oct 24 09:31:11 2001 f9OEVA408250 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:31:10 - (63.228.45.102) Subject: Milward Heat Treat On page 167 of the Milward book he states that he heat treats tips for = Lets them cool and afterwards heats them to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to =fully dewater them.My problem:::::: If as he states the purpose of heat treating is to =remove water at a molecular level, how could you do this without =removing all the water in the heat treating process? It would seem that =the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours would come =before the heat treatment to remove the water at the molecular level.Can anyone enlighten me on this one?Dave On page 167 of the Milward bookhe = Lets them cool and afterwardsheats = 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully dewater them.My problem:::::: If as he states the= heat treating is to remove water at a molecular level, how could you do = without removing all the water in the heat treating process? It would = the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours would come = the heat treatment to remove the water at the molecular =level.Can anyone enlighten me on one?Dave from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 24 10:18:10 2001 f9OFI9410524 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:18:09 - for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:18:14 - Subject: Re: Polishing Chad, You're not going to do it at all with the 3F. It is much too abrasive. =You can use a wool felt pad with the 3F to remove the bubbles, then use =5F to bring back up the shine, but you're never going to be able to =match the gloss as it comes from the varnish left to dry naturally. You =can use various plastic polishes too, and these work quite well, needing =heat to be generated in the polishing process, but even at that you will =not get the gloss back to original -- close but no cigar I prefer the =look of varnish that has been worked, rather than the glossy look. You =may have a different idea.Oh, yeah. It does depend upon which varnish you are using. =Polyurethane's are harder to polish out, but can be gotten to the point =that any rubbing is barely noticeable. A true Spar is easier to work, =but won't polish back up to the point of original gloss. M-D I have done some varnish work on my rods, and need to polish out some =tiny bubbles. What is the best cloth/abrasive to use with Brownell's 3f =polish to get some results without taking off too much varnish, and =dulling the finish?Thanks Chad, You're not going to doit = remove the bubbles, then use 5F to bring back up the shine, but you're = going to be able to match the gloss as it comes from the varnish left to = naturally. You can use various plastic polishes too, and these work = look of varnish that has been worked, rather than the glossy look. You = a different idea.Oh, yeah. It doesdepend = varnish you are using. Polyurethane's are harder to polish out, but can = gotten to the point that any rubbing is barely noticeable. A true Spar = gloss. M-D chadwigham = I have done some varnish work on my rods, and need= out some tiny bubbles. What is the best cloth/abrasive to use with = 3f polish to get some results without taking off too much varnish, and = the finish?Thanks from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Wed Oct 24 10:31:26 2001 f9OFVP411582 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:31:25 - 743.svm.vetmed.wisc.edu) Subject: Re: heat gun oven question I started out with a screen jury rigging but didn't like it. I then purchased a piece of welders iron the width of my inner tube so it fits in the middle of the tube quite well. Its a little short of the inner tube length so it doesn't prevent air flow on either side. Its kind of thick (1/4"??) and probably slows down my oven from reaching its equilibrium temperature but I was more interested in having a surface that was flat so the strips wouldn't tend to conform to a nonlinear shape. Probably not a factor but it is what I ended up with. Works fine and is a solid surface so it is easy to slide the strips in as opposed to a screen where the ends might catch if the screen holes are large enough.$0.02Jon McAnulty At 09:27 AM 10/24/2001 -0500, Frank Stetzer wrote: Those who use your heat gun ovens horizontally...do you have a wirescreen to support the strips or do they just lay in the tube?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 24 10:32:54 2001 f9OFWr411834 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:32:53 - for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:32:57 - Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat In the preliminary testing I've done the results look like this: Sample 1 was heat treated at 325=B0 F for 25 minutes, and 225=B0 F for =60 minutes, with continuous heat exposure from the beginning. Total =exposure time was 150 minutes. Beginning weight of strip was 6 grams. =Weight after heat treatment was 5.4 grams, for a loss of .6 grams of =water. Sample 2 was heat treated at 225=B0 F for 120 minutes, and 325=B0 F for=25 minutes, with continuous heat exposure from the beginning. Total =exposure time was 180 minutes. Beginning weight of strip was 6.7 grams. =Weight after heat treatment was 6.0 grams, for a loss of .7 grams of =water. Surely you'd think that the additional exposure time, and the additional =hour at 225=B0 F would have made a more significant change in Sample 2 =than .1 gram. Guess what? In all the testing I did, some methods of heat treating =showed more promise at removing water, but many removed the sameamount = from their respective strips. One method didn't seem to work better than =the others, for the same amount of water removal. Only the exposure =times varied, not the end result. What remains to be determined is what =detrimental effect the various heat treatment methods may have had on =the bamboo, and does it really matter in the use of a making it into a =fly rod? M-D On page 167 of the Milward book he states that he heat treats tips for = Lets them cool and afterwards heats them to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to=fully dewater them.My problem:::::: If as he states the purpose of heat treating is to =remove water at a molecular level, how could you do this without =removing all the water in the heat treating process? It would seem that =the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours would come =before the heat treatment to remove the water at the molecular level.Can anyone enlighten me on this one?Dave In the preliminary = the results look like this: Sample 1 was heattreated = the beginning. Total exposure time was 150 minutes. Beginning weight of = was 6 grams. Weight after heat treatment was 5.4 grams, for a loss of .6 = of water. Sample 2 was heattreated = the beginning. Total exposure time was 180 minutes. Beginning weight of = was 6.7 grams. Weight after heat treatment was 6.0 grams, for a loss of = of water. Surely you'd think that= additional exposure time, and the additional hour at 225=B0 F would have = more significant change in Sample 2 than .1gram. Guess what? In all the= some methods of heat treating showed more promise at removing water, but= removed the same amount from their respective strips. One method didn't = exposure times varied, not the end result. What remains to be determined = detrimental effect the various heat treatment methods may have had on = rod? M-D Dave =Norling On page 167 of the Milward bookhe = Lets them cool and afterwards = 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully dewater them.My problem:::::: If as he states = of heat treating is to remove water at a molecular level, how could = this without removing all the water in the heat treating process? It = seem that the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours = level.Can anyone enlighten me on one?Dave from SBDunn@aol.com Wed Oct 24 10:58:58 2001 f9OFwv413940 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:58:57 - Subject: Re: Dickerson book I think the Heddon book is excellent - really worth getting. The Divine book is more along the lines of the Dickerson book - perhaps a little bit better. Regards, Steve. from thogan@rochester.rr.com Wed Oct 24 11:29:46 2001 f9OGTj416706 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:29:45 - f9OGSsF29630 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:28:55 - Subject: Lathe I know that this has been a fully discussed topic on this list, but =could someone give me some advice on what lathe to purchase. I am =interesting in ferrule and reel seat making. I see new ones from Grizzly = I know that this has been a fully = on this list, but could someone give me some advice on what lathe to = am interesting in ferrule and reel seat making. I see new ones from = < 500, could buy a used one as well. Please feel free to contact me = to minimize the traffic on the list.RegardsTaylor from rmoon@ida.net Wed Oct 24 12:05:17 2001 f9OH5G418967 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:05:16 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: FFF Bamboo Rod Symposium As I have indicated before, the Federation of Fly Fishers will be holdinga Bamboo Rod Symposium the first week of August in Livingston Mt I confess that I have had major computer meltdown and I have lost all ofthe names of those who so kindly responded to my original request forassistance is particular twodays of continuous building demonstration, we do need a pretty good sized concurrently the thislet me know. Finally, two of you on the list have indicated your desire to participate I have set up a website for everyone and I invite all of you to take a look. changedfrequently, so you might wish to bookmark it. WWW.ida.net/users/rmoon/Symposium Ralph Moonrmoon@ida.net from jmpio@nhbm.com Wed Oct 24 12:13:11 2001 f9OHDB419626 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:13:11 - id ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:16:55 -0600 Subject: RE: FFF Bamboo Rod Symposium this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Ralph, you missed a letter in that link to the new website. It needs to bewww.ida.net/users/rmoon (you had justputusers/moon). -----Original Message----- Subject: FFF Bamboo Rod Symposium As I have indicated before, the Federation of Fly Fishers will be holding aBamboo Rod Symposium the first week of August in Livingston Mt Along withthe symposium will be a bamboo rod building workshop. I confess that I have had major computer meltdown and I have lost all of thenames of those who so kindly responded to my original request forassistanceat the Symposium. I was foolish for not making a hard copy, but that islife. Once again, then, I would invite all of you who may have a desire toparticipate in the Symposium to e-mail me. Please if you have a particulararea of expertise, please let me know. Since we are planning to have twodays of continuous building demonstration, we do need a pretty good sizedcrew. Also we plan to have some more technical seminars to runconcurrentlywith the demonstration. Already, Bob Nunley has agreed to do one on thebuilding of bamboo ferrules. Any others who would like to be part of thislet me know. Finally, two of you on the list have indicated your desire to participate inthe workshop. I put you off a little until we finalized some plans. We areready, and if you will notify me at once, we can proceed. I have set up a website for everyone and I invite all of you to take a look.This site if intended to be a dynamic one and will be added to and changedfrequently, so you might wish to bookmark it. WWW.ida.net/users/rmoon/Symposium Ralph Moon Ralph, just put users/moon). -----Original Message-----From: Ralph W. Moon 11:03 FFF Bamboo Rod SymposiumAs I have indicated before, theFederation of Fly Fishers will be holding a Bamboo Rod Symposium the first week ofAugust building meltdown and I have lost all of the names of those who so kindly responded to my original making a who may have a desire to participate in the Symposium to e-mail me. have some more technical seminars to run concurrently with the demonstration. know.Finally, two of you on the list have indicated your desireto invite will be added to and changed frequently, so you might wish to bookmark it.WWW.ida.net/users/rmoon/Symposium Ralph Moonrmoon@ida.net from jmpio@nhbm.com Wed Oct 24 12:19:34 2001 f9OHJX420185 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:19:34 - id ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:23:18 -0600 Subject: RE: FFF Bamboo Rod Symposium this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Sorry, Ralph, you got it right the first time, it was I or my computer who error. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: FFF Bamboo Rod Symposium Ralph, you missed a letter in that link to the new website. It needs to bewww.ida.net/users/rmoon (you had justputusers/moon). Sorry, Ralph, you got it right the first time, it was I or my computer who for some error. -----Original Message-----From: James Piotrowski Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:17 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: FFF Bamboo Rod SymposiumRalph, you missed a letter in that link to thenew had just put users/moon). from ttalsma@macatawa.org Wed Oct 24 12:34:08 2001 f9OHY6421018 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:34:06 - id ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:28:02 -0400 id TH24NSCY; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:27:58 -0400 Subject: Re: FFF Bamboo Rod Symposium Use http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/Symposium/ and you'll be all set. jmpio@nhbm.com wrote: Ralph, you missed a letter in that link to the new website. It needsto be www.ida.net/users/rmoon (you had just put users/moon). -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:03 AM Subject: FFF Bamboo Rod Symposium As I have indicated before, the Federation of Fly Fisherswill be holding a Bamboo Rod Symposium the first week ofAugust in Livingston Mt Along with the symposium will be abamboo rod building workshop. I confess that I have had major computer meltdown and I havelost all of the names of those who so kindly responded to myoriginal request for assistance at the Symposium. I wasfoolish for not making a hard copy, but that is life. Onceagain, then, I would invite all of you who may have a desireto participate in the Symposium to e-mail me. Please if youhave a particular area of expertise, please let me know.Since we are planning to have two days of continuousbuilding demonstration, we do need a pretty good sized crew.Also we plan to have some more technical seminars to runconcurrently with the demonstration. Already, Bob Nunleyhas agreed to do one on the building of bamboo ferrules.Any others who would like to be part of this let me know. Finally, two of you on the list have indicated your desireto participate in the workshop. I put you off a littleuntil we finalized some plans. We are ready, and if youwill notify me at once, we can proceed. I have set up a website for everyone and I invite all of youto take a look. This site if intended to be a dynamic oneand will be added to and changed frequently, so you mightwish to bookmark it. WWW.ida.net/users/rmoon/Symposium Ralph Moonrmoon@ida.net -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Oct 24 13:02:10 2001 Received: from umhs-mail01.missouri.edu (umhs- mail01.health.missouri.edu[161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) by wugate.wustl.edu (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:02:11 -0500 Message- 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ than the other, and I just want to point out that these tests don't reallyspeak = to the question of what method of heat tempering "works better" but of course the = point of Milward's work is that there is more going onthan simple water = removal. He suggests (actually, he shows withmicrographs) that the structure of = the remaining bamboo is changed whenexposed to enough heating. You might conceivably have two strips, both driedequally, but only one of which = has had the degree of heating needed tocreate the structural changes. = Milward and others suggest that the onewith the structural changes, when = exposed to moisture in the future, will changes, and be less affected in bending/strength properties than the dried because of the structural changes, still be less affected in bending/strength any case, = the idea is that heating to the point of making the structuralchanges does = more than temporarily dry the bamboo. The opposing view isthat whatever may happen, whether or not structures change, it makes nodifference in the future and if the bamboo gets damp it will all act like driedbut = otherwise unchanged bamboo (absorb the same amount of water,become floppier, = etc). I think this last view has been clearly discredited bymeaningful tests = (not that there aren't additional unanswered questions) meant to address this question, and I'm not = at all criticizing them, butthese preliminary tests don't speak to that = overall question of the best Sample 1 was heat treated at 325=B0 F for 25 minutes, and 225=B0 F for =60 minutes, with continuous heat exposure from the beginning. Total =exposure time was 150 minutes. Beginning weight of strip was 6 grams.Weight = after heat treatment was 5.4 grams, for a loss of .6 grams of 325=B0 F for = 25 minutes, with continuous heat exposure from thebeginning. Total = exposure time was 180 minutes. Beginning weight of stripwas 6.7 grams. Weight = after heat treatment was 6.0 grams, for a loss of and the = additional hour at 225=B0 F would have made a more significant some methods of heat treating = showed more promise at removing water,but many removed the same amount from = their respective strips. Onemethod didn't seem to work better than the = others, for the same amountof water removal. Only the exposure times varied, = not the end result. Whatremains to be determined is what detrimental = effect the various heattreatment methods may have had on the bamboo, and does it really matter states that he heat treats tips for = 10 minutes and butts for 15 minutes 3 hours to = fully dewater them. My problem:::::: If as he states the purposeof heat treating is to = remove water at a molecular level, how could you dothis without removing all = the water in the heat treating process? It wouldseem that the two steps = are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hourswould come before the heat treatment to remove the water at the molecularlevel. Can anyone enlighten me on this one? Dave ------ Normal1 72001-10-24T17:33:00Z 1488 2269University of Missouri 531827499.3821 0DocumentEmail terms of whether one method “worked better” than = theother, and I just want to point out that these tests don’t reallyspeak to the = question of what method of heat tempering “worksbetter” for = rodmaking. about the same for water removal, but of course the point = ofMilward’s work is that there is more going on than simple water =removal. He suggests (actually, he shows with micrographs) that thestructure of = the remaining bamboo is changed when exposed to enoughheating. You might conceivably have two strips, both dried equally, but onlyone of which = has had the degree of heating needed to create the structuralchanges. Milward = and others suggest that the one with the structuralchanges, when exposed = to moisture in the future, will = strip without the changes, and be = less affected in bending/strengthproperties than the dried but = structurally unchanged strip, the structural changes, still = be less affected in bending/strength = likely but I haven’t seen data on that. In any case, the = idea is thatheating to the point of making the structural changes does more than =temporarily dry the bamboo. The opposing view is that whatever may happen,whether or = not structures change, it makes no difference in the futureand if the = bamboo gets damp it will all act like dried but otherwiseunchanged bamboo (absorb = the same amount of water, become floppier,etc). I think this last view has been = clearly discredited by meaningful tests(not that there aren’t additional = unanswered questions) butobviously not everyone on the list = I’m not sure you meant to address this question, and I’m notat all = criticizing them, but these preliminary tests don’t speak tothat overall = question of the best way to heat treat for = = -----OriginalMessage-----From: Jojo DeLancier Sent: Wednesday,October =24, 200110:28 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Milward =Heat Treat In the preliminary testing I've done the results look like =this:= Sample 1 was heat treated at 325=B0 F for 25 minutes, and =225=B0 F for60 minutes, with continuous heat exposure from the beginning. Total =exposuretime was 150 minutes. Beginning weight of strip was 6 grams. Weight =after heattreatment was 5.4 grams, for a loss of .6 grams of =water.= Sample 2 was heat treated at 225=B0 F for 120 minutes, and =325=B0 F exposure time was 180 minutes. Beginning weight of strip was 6.7 grams. =Weightafter heat treatment was 6.0 grams, for a loss of .7 grams of =water.= Surely you'd think that the additional exposure time, and =theadditional hour at 225=B0 F would have made a more significant change =in Sample 2than .1 gram.= Guess what? In all the testing I did, some methods of heattreating showed more promise at removing water, but many removed the =sameamount from their respective strips. One method didn't seem to work =better than exposure timesvaried, not the end result. What remains to be determined is what =detrimentaleffect the various heat treatment methods may have had on the bamboo, =and doesit really matter in the use of a making it into a fly =rod?= M-D= From: Dave =Norling On page 167of the Milward book he states that he heat treats tips for 10 minutes =and butts Lets themcool and afterwards heats them to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully =dewaterthem. Myproblem:::::: If as he states the purpose of heat treating is to remove =waterat a molecular level, how could you do this without removing all the =water inthe heat treating process? It would seem that the two steps are =backwards andthat the drying at 2-3 hours would come before the heat treatment to =remove thewater at the molecular level.= Can anyoneenlighten me on this one?= Dave= from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 13:10:56 2001 f9OIAt422857 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:10:55 - Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:10:58 PDT Subject: Re: Hollow Built I've only cast one hollow built rod. It was aDickerson taper for an 8', 5wt. that I believe, wasmade by Dennis Higham (sorry Dennis, not sure of thespelling on your last name). My impression was thatthe weight loss may be minimal but the way it handledwas nothing short of miraculous. I think the change tothe action and the weight combine to give it a verydifferent feel. Really considering building one for mynext rod. Bill Walters --- "T. Ackland" wrote: Hollow building, I think, comes from the days oftournament castingwhere the weight of the rod figured in the equation.terry Jim Bureau wrote: Taylor: I haven't built any of the hollow built rods but I've cast several of them. My personal opinion is that hollow built rods offer little or nothing in the way of increased performance for general trout fishing. One of the most important reasons that bamboo rods cast the way they do is because of the weight of the cane. It's this inertia of the cane that differentiate's bamboo rods from graphite rods. I've been to several gatherings where fellow builders have had their latest hollow built rod to cast. To tell you the truth, I couldn't tell that any of the rods were hollowed, nor could anyone else.When a builder says, check out this rod, it's hollow built!, what do you think? This is a whole lot different statement then if he had said, check out this rod and tell me what you think. I do believe it's a good marketing scheme but not much more. For heavy rods of over 8 1/2 ft in length, you could very well benifit from hollow building. The slight weight savings that you'd g! ! et from hollowing could make a noticeable difference when casting these heavy rods for long periods of time. Jim>From: "taylor hogan" Subject: Hollow BuiltDate: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:46:04 -0400 Has anyone done any hollow built rods, or removed significant inside material to lose weight?I am curious as to opinions on how the glue up went, and any noticable casting differences?Taylor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from dnorl@qwest.net Wed Oct 24 13:21:18 2001 f9OILH423535 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:21:17 - (63.228.44.229) RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: heat gun oven question What is welders iron?Dave-----Original Message----- RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: heat gun oven question I started out with a screen jury rigging but didn't like it. I thenpurchased a piece of welders iron the width of my inner tube so it fits inthe middle of the tube quite well. Its a little short of the inner tubelength so it doesn't prevent air flow on either side. Its kind of thick(1/4"??) and probably slows down my oven from reaching its equilibriumtemperature but I was more interested in having a surface that was flat sothe strips wouldn't tend to conform to a nonlinear shape. Probably not afactor but it is what I ended up with. Works fine and is a solid surface soit is easy to slide the strips in as opposed to a screen where the endsmight catch if the screen holes are large enough.$0.02Jon McAnulty At 09:27 AM 10/24/2001 -0500, Frank Stetzer wrote: Those who use your heat gun ovens horizontally...do you have a wirescreen to support the strips or do they just lay in the tube?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Wed Oct 24 13:34:21 2001 f9OIYL424425 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:34:21 - 743.svm.vetmed.wisc.edu) RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: heat gun oven question Maybe I'm calling it the wrong thing. It is just strap iron available at the local welder supply house. This is where I bought my steel bars to make my planing forms. It is pretty cheap.Cheers.Jon At 01:08 PM 10/24/2001 -0500, Dave Norling wrote: What is welders iron?Dave-----Original Message-----From: Jonathan McAnulty RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:32 AMSubject: Re: heat gun oven question I started out with a screen jury rigging but didn't like it. I thenpurchased a piece of welders iron the width of my inner tube so it fits inthe middle of the tube quite well. Its a little short of the inner tubelength so it doesn't prevent air flow on either side. Its kind of thick(1/4"??) and probably slows down my oven from reaching its equilibriumtemperature but I was more interested in having a surface that was flatsothe strips wouldn't tend to conform to a nonlinear shape. Probably not afactor but it is what I ended up with. Works fine and is a solid surface soit is easy to slide the strips in as opposed to a screen where the endsmight catch if the screen holes are large enough.$0.02Jon McAnulty At 09:27 AM 10/24/2001 -0500, Frank Stetzer wrote: Those who use your heat gun ovens horizontally...do you have a wirescreen to support the strips or do they just lay in the tube?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 24 14:28:36 2001 f9OJSX427602 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:28:33 -0500 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:28:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat Barry, Of course you are correct about the testing. That is why I was careful =to point out that these were preliminary tests, and are in now way =conclusive. What I meant by "worked better" was simply from a point of =drying the bamboo. Despite the assertions that once we have chemically =altered the bamboo, and that it can never hold the same amount of water =again, I am seeing nearly a uniform uptake in moisture content, thus =far. I'm sure that once the strips reach some point of equilibrium, that =there may be more of a noticeable difference, but the scale I'm using =does not have sufficient resolution to determine minute weight shifts. =Now, whether we have actually created strips that have a higher bending =strength, and are more resilient, even when exposed to atmospheric =moisture, I don't know. That will take lots more study.There is so much that can be done in this area that I don't know if =we'll ever have it all done. Until someone stands to make real money = from this type of thing, and it is worth it to invest real money in real =testing, I don't think we're likely to have many real answers. M-D Subject: RE: Milward Heat Treat Your note spoke in terms of whether one method "worked better" than =the other, and I just want to point out that these tests don't really =speak to the question of what method of heat tempering "works better" = The results were about the same for water removal, but of course the =point of Milward's work is that there is more going on than simple water =removal. He suggests (actually, he shows with micrographs) that the =structure of the remaining bamboo is changed when exposed to enough =heating. You might conceivably have two strips, both dried equally, but =only one of which has had the degree of heating needed to create the =structural changes. Milward and others suggest that the one with the =structural changes, when exposed to moisture in the future, will either: 1.. Reabsorb less water than an equally dry strip without the =changes, and be less affected in bending/strength properties than the = 2.. Absorb just as much water but, because of the structural = I think #1 is more likely but I haven't seen data on that. In any =case, the idea is that heating to the point of making the structural =changes does more than temporarily dry the bamboo. The opposing view is =that whatever may happen, whether or not structures change, it makes no =difference in the future and if the bamboo gets damp it will all act =like dried but otherwise unchanged bamboo (absorb the same amount of =water, become floppier, etc). I think this last view has been clearly =discredited by meaningful tests (not that there aren't additional =unanswered questions) but obviously not everyone on the list agrees. So again I'm not sure you meant to address this question, and I'm not =at all criticizing them, but these preliminary tests don't speak to that =overall question of the best way to heat treat for rodmaking. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:28 AM Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat In the preliminary testing I've done the results look like this: Sample 1 was heat treated at 325=B0 F for 25 minutes, and 225=B0 F for=60 minutes, with continuous heat exposure from the beginning. Total =exposure time was 150 minutes. Beginning weight of strip was 6 grams. =Weight after heat treatment was 5.4 grams, for a loss of .6 grams of =water. Sample 2 was heat treated at 225=B0 F for 120 minutes, and 325=B0 F = exposure time was 180 minutes. Beginning weight of strip was 6.7 grams. =Weight after heat treatment was 6.0 grams, for a loss of .7 grams of =water. Surely you'd think that the additional exposure time, and the =additional hour at 225=B0 F would have made a more significant change in =Sample 2 than .1 gram. Guess what? In all the testing I did, some methods of heat treating =showed more promise at removing water, but many removed the sameamount = from their respective strips. One method didn't seem to work better than =the others, for the same amount of water removal. Only the exposure =times varied, not the end result. What remains to be determined is what =detrimental effect the various heat treatment methods may have had on =the bamboo, and does it really matter in the use of a making it into a =fly rod? M-D On page 167 of the Milward book he states that he heat treats tips for = Lets them cool and afterwards heats them to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to=fully dewater them. My problem:::::: If as he states the purpose of heat treating is to =remove water at a molecular level, how could you do this without =removing all the water in the heat treating process? It would seem that =the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours would come =before the heat treatment to remove the water at the molecular level. Can anyone enlighten me on this one? Dave Normal172001-10-24T17:33:00Z14882269University of Missouri531827499.3821 0DocumentEmail @font-face { font-family: Tahoma;}@font-face { font-family: Baskerville;}@page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; =mso-header-margin: .5in; mso-footer-margin: .5in; mso-paper- source: 0; }P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT- FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow- orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}LI.MsoNormal { FONT- SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso- style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style-parent: ""; mso- pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single}SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single}A:visited { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single}SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single}P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso- fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}SPAN.EmailStyle18 { COLOR: navy; mso-style-type: personal-reply; mso-ansi-font-size: =10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font- family: Arial; =mso-bidi-font-family: Arial}DIV.Section1 { page: Section1}OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in}UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in} Barry, Of course you arecorrect = testing. That is why I was careful to point out that these were = tests, and are in now way conclusive. What I meant by "worked better" = from a point of drying the bamboo. Despite the assertions that once we = chemically altered the bamboo, and that it can never hold the same = water again, I am seeing nearly a uniform uptake in moisture content, = I'm sure that once the strips reach some point of equilibrium, that = sufficient resolution to determine minute weight shifts. Now, whether we = actually created strips that have a higher bending strength, and are = resilient, even when exposed to atmospheric moisture, I don't know. That = take lots more study.There is so much thatcan = this area that I don't know if we'll ever have it all done. Until = to make real money from this type of thing, and it is worth it to invest = answers. M-D ----- Original Message ----- Kling, Barry W. Sent: Wednesday, October 24, = PMSubject: RE: Milward Heat =Treat note spoke in terms of whether one method “workedbetter” = I just want to point out that these tests don’t really speak to = rodmaking. results were about the same for water removal, but of course the point = Milward’s work is that there is more going on than simple water = suggests (actually, he shows with micrographs) that the structure of = remaining bamboo is changed when exposed to enough heating. You conceivably have two strips, both dried equally, but only one of which = the degree of heating needed to create the structural changes. Milward = others suggest that the one with the structural changes, when exposed = moisture in the future, will =either: less water than an equally dry strip without the changes, and be = affected in bending/strength properties than the dried but = unchanged strip, OR just as much water but, because of the structural changes, still be = affected in bending/strength = think #1 is more likely but I haven’t seen data on that. In any = is that heating to the point of making the structural changes does = temporarily dry the bamboo. The opposing view is that whatever may = whether or not structures change, it makes no difference in the future = the bamboo gets damp it will all act like dried but otherwise = (absorb the same amount of water, become floppier, etc). I think this = view has been clearly discredited by meaningful tests (not that there = additional unanswered questions) but obviously not everyone on the = agrees. again I’m not sure you meant to address this question, and = criticizing them, but these preliminary tests don’t speak to = rodmaking. Barry = Message-----From: = = Treat In = this: heat treated at 325=B0 F for 25 minutes, and 225=B0 F for 60 minutes, = continuous heat exposure from the beginning. Total exposure time was = minutes. Beginning weight of strip was 6 grams. Weight after heat = water. heat treated at 225=B0 F for 120 minutes, and 325=B0 F for 25 minutes,= continuous heat exposure from the beginning. Total exposure time was = minutes. Beginning weight of strip was 6.7 grams. Weight after heat = water. think that the additional exposure time, and the additional hour at = gram. all the testing I did, some methods of heat treating showed more = removing water, but many removed the same amount from their respective= amount of water removal. Only the exposure times varied, not the end = What remains to be determined is what detrimental effect the various = treatment methods may have had on the bamboo, and does it really = use of a making it into a flyrod? M-D From: Dave = On page 167 of the Milward = states that he heat treats tips for 10 minutes and butts for 15 = F Lets them cool and afterwards = to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully dewaterthem.My problem:::::: If as he = purpose of heat treating is to remove water at a molecular level, how = you do this without removing all the water in the heat treating = would seem that the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 = would come before the heat treatment to remove the water at the = level.Can anyone enlighten me on = one?Dave= from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Oct 24 14:36:58 2001 f9OJav428433 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:36:57 - Subject: L.A. CA. rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Doesn't someone on the list live in or near L.A.? If so contact me off list please. My son's band is going there to shoot a video for MTV.Bret Doesn't someone on the son's band is going there to shoot a video for MTV.Bret from pcollin@rochester.rr.com Wed Oct 24 14:47:49 2001 f9OJlm429348 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:47:48 - f9OJksF16343 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:46:54 - Subject: False Adv. Line Wt. - I promise the last word on the subject! I just compared the mic measurements of my 5 weight that turned into an =8 weight with those of a Garrison 8 weight salmon rod. The garrison is =8"9" but has a butt extension, which effectively makes it an 8 1/2 foot =action like my newest blank. At most stations, the diameters are FATTER =than that of the Garrison. So I ask for the last time, am I crazy? Peter Collin I just compared the mic measurementsof = that turned into an 8 weight with those of a Garrison 8 weight salmon = The garrison is 8"9" but has a butt extension, which effectively makes = crazy? PeterCollin from Vtbamboo@cs.com Wed Oct 24 15:34:21 2001 f9OKYK407478 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:34:20 - for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:34:18 - Subject: 1 piece I have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered, heat treated, and staggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6" Max.) 1 piece tapers worth building? same culm, rough tapered, heat treated, and staggered. Does any one knowof any short (4' 6" Max.) 1 piece tapers worth building? from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Wed Oct 24 16:07:24 2001 f9OL7M415104 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:07:22 - Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:07:22 +0100 Subject: Re: 1 piece --------------AA2467F412AC08179035AC52 Try a Hardy Banty 4'4" and exclude the ferrule !The taper as previously posted to the list by Art Port / Ray Gould is asattached......Paul Vtbamboo@cs.com wrote: I have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered,heat treated, and staggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6"Max.) 1 piece tapers worth building? --------------AA2467F412AC08179035AC52 name="Hardy Banty.xls" filename="Hardy Banty.xls" 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from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 24 16:14:15 2001 f9OLEE416810 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:14:14 - Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat 7D66DFDD81EB4C45F040C089" --------------7D66DFDD81EB4C45F040C089 Dave,if you want to write a book on rodmaking you have to make it different from the books that have been peviously written.How the next "writer" can top "molecular" will be difficult. I guess hecould always make stuff up, eh, but rodmakers would not do that, wouldthey?Terry Dave Norling wrote: On page 167 of the Milward book he states that he heat treats tips afterwards heats them to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully dewaterthem.My problem:::::: If as he states the purpose of heat treating isto remove water at a molecular level, how could you do this withoutremoving all the water in the heat treating process? It would seemthat the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hourswould come before the heat treatment to remove the water at themolecular level.Can anyone enlighten me on this one?Dave --------------7D66DFDD81EB4C45F040C089 Dave,if you want to write a book on rodmaking you have to make it different from the books that have been peviously written.How the next "writer" can top "molecular" will be difficult. I guesshe could always make stuff up, eh, but rodmakers would not do that, wouldthey?Terry Dave Norling wrote: 167 of the Milward book he states that he heat treats tips for 10 minutesand butts for 15 minutes at 325 FLets them cool and afterwards heatsthemto 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully dewater them.My problem:::::: If ashe states the purpose of heat treating is to remove water at a molecularlevel, how could you do this without removing all the water in the heattreating process? It would seem that the two steps are backwards and thatthe drying at 2-3 hours would come before the heat treatment to removethe water at the molecular level.Can anyone enlighten me on thisone?Dave --------------7D66DFDD81EB4C45F040C089-- from paul@lifeware.com Wed Oct 24 16:17:21 2001 f9OLHI417653 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:17:18 - c0mailgw09.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.029) (NPlex 5.5.029) Subject: RE: False Adv. Line Wt. - I promise the last word on the subject! Peter, I don't think your crazy. You may have started with a bad or miss- labeledtaper or could have been a mistake while planning. If you like the rodaction of the rod you built, you could run the taper through the Hexrodprogram and reduce the measurements down to a line weight yourcomfortablewith. When you do this make sure that the stress curves stay true as youreduce the measurements. So don't give up yet. Paul York -----Original Message----- Subject: False Adv. Line Wt. - I promise the last word on the subject! I just compared the mic measurements of my 5 weight that turned into an 8weight with those of a Garrison 8 weight salmon rod. The garrison is 8"9"but has a butt extension, which effectively makes it an 8 1/2 foot actionlike my newest blank. At most stations, the diameters are FATTER thanthatof the Garrison. So I ask for the last time, am I crazy? Peter Collin 0DocumentEmail Peter, I don’t think your crazy. You may have started =with a bad ormiss- labeled taper or could have been a mistake while planning. If you =like therod =action of the rod you built, you could =run thetaper through the Hexrod program and reduce the measurements down to a=lineweight your comfortable with. When you do this make sure that the stress =curvesstay true as you reduce the measurements. So don’t give up =yet. Paul York -----OriginalMessage-----From:owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Wednesday,October =24, 20012:42 PM Subject: False Adv. Line =Wt. - Ipromise the last word on the subject! I justcompared the mic measurements of my 5 weight that turned into an 8 =weight with 8"9"but has a butt extension, which effectively makes it an 8 1/2 foot =action like that of crazy? PeterCollin from paul@lifeware.com Wed Oct 24 16:23:52 2001 f9OLNo419343 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:23:50 - c0mailgw07.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.029) (NPlex 5.5.029) Subject: RE: 1 piece This would be prefect size for a bamboo spinning rod. Try a linear taper from tip to butt using .003 to .004 per inch increase. I would start at thetip with a measurement of .070 or .075. This should give you a sweet castingrod with a parabolic action for a light class rod. Worth a try Paul York -----Original Message----- Subject: 1 piece I have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered, heattreated, and staggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6" Max.) 1 piecetapers worth building? 0DocumentEmail This would be prefect size for a bamboo spinning rod. =Try a linear taper from tip to butt =using .003to .004 per inch increase. I would start at the tip with a measurement =of .070or .075. This should give you a sweet casting rod with a parabolic =action for alight class rod. Worth a try Paul =York -----OriginalMessage-----From: =owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Vtbamboo@cs.comSent: Wednesday,October =24, 20013:34 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: 1 =piece have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered, heat treated, =andstaggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6" Max.) 1 piece =tapersworth building? from dstreight@yarcom.com Wed Oct 24 17:09:46 2001 f9OM9j428666 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:09:45 - 0700 (141.156.144.11) -0700 Subject: Antifreeze and water stones Noticed in Wayne C.'s book that he suggests that water stones can besafelystored in an antifreeze solution where there is threat of the water freezingin winter. I have an unheated shop area in my garage and was wondering ifanyone had done this, what mix of antifreeze to water you used, and what ifany effect it had on the stones?? 'Course it's 82 degrees in Virginia todayso I don't have that problem just yet...Thanks for your help. Dave from channer@frontier.net Wed Oct 24 17:22:30 2001 f9OMMS401198 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:22:29 - Subject: Re: Polishing M-D;Spar varnish polishes back to the original shine to the point where youcan't tell it's been polished with 3x magnifiers, that's what I likeabout spar. Just use 3-M's Perfect-It and Finesse-It polishingcompounds, they work like a charm.John from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 24 17:54:07 2001 f9OMs6407518 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:54:06 -0500 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:54:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Polishing John, I agree that any marks can be rubbed out, and this may have something to dowith the spar I'm using, but there is a distinct difference between thegloss out of the can and anything I can create by rubbing, and I've triedmany different compounds. Based on your experience, I suspect it's thevarnish I'm using. M-D ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Polishing M-D;Spar varnish polishes back to the original shine to the point where youcan't tell it's been polished with 3x magnifiers, that's what I likeabout spar. Just use 3-M's Perfect-It and Finesse-It polishingcompounds, they work like a charm.John from stoltz10@home.com Wed Oct 24 17:59:37 2001 f9OMxa408936 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:59:36 - femail46.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: Smithwick binder I just finished making a Smithwick binder and bound up a roughed out = Tim I just finished making a Smithwick = Tim from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 24 18:03:04 2001 f9ON33409853 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:03:03 - for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:03:09 - Subject: Re: 1 piece What about A.J.'s taper? =http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram444dx.html M-D I have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered, =heat treated, and staggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6" Max.) = What about A.J.'staper? =http:=//www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram444dx.html= M-D = same culm, rough tapered, heat treated, and staggered. Does any one = from rwallace@greatnorthern.net Wed Oct 24 18:06:07 2001 f9ON66410705 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:06:06 - forged)) for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:06:08 -0700 Subject: Ferrule Problems Hey all I'm finishing up a restoration on an old rod where I replaced the ferrules.I neglected to dress the serrations enough, so now the thread wraps leavethe ferrules exposed. Not good at all. Is there anything I can use to make asmooth transition there? If I make a ramp with some glue will it show underthe wraps? I really don't want to remove the ferrules and start over. Anysuggestions? Ray from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 24 18:27:56 2001 f9ONRt415440 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:27:56 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Polishing M-D,In the instances that I do you spar, such as restorations and such, Iuse McCloskey's Man-O-War and if I need to polish it, it comes out perfect.I use the same polishes that John does... Perfect-It first, then Finesse-It.Actually, I find the spar varnish MUCH easier to polish out to originalshine than Varmor R-10. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Polishing John, I agree that any marks can be rubbed out, and this may have something to do with the spar I'm using, but there is a distinct difference between thegloss out of the can and anything I can create by rubbing, and I've triedmany different compounds. Based on your experience, I suspect it's thevarnish I'm using. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "channer" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:24 PMSubject: Re: Polishing M-D;Spar varnish polishes back to the original shine to the point where youcan't tell it's been polished with 3x magnifiers, that's what I likeabout spar. Just use 3-M's Perfect-It and Finesse-It polishingcompounds, they work like a charm.John from "Marty D. aka \"none" Wed Oct 24 18:34:44 2001 f9ONYh417217 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:34:44 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4166. . Clean. Processed in 0.253192 secs); 24 Oct 200123:28:58 -0000 Subject: Re: Ferrule Problems Hi Ray, Just remove the ferrule wrap and using a jewlers file (or small file)taper the ends of the serrations down to the cane. Marty Ray Wallace wrote: Hey all I'm finishing up a restoration on an old rod where I replaced the ferrules.I neglected to dress the serrations enough, so now the thread wraps leavethe ferrules exposed. Not good at all. Is there anything I can use to make asmooth transition there? If I make a ramp with some glue will it show underthe wraps? I really don't want to remove the ferrules and start over. Anysuggestions? Ray from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 24 18:39:13 2001 f9ONdC418443 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:39:12 -0500 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:39:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Polishing Bob, It must be the spar I'm using. I'm not complaining though, as I don't likethe very glossy look in the first place. ;o)See you tomorrow! M-D M-D,In the instances that I do you spar, such as restorations and such, Iuse McCloskey's Man-O-War and if I need to polish it, it comes out perfect. I use the same polishes that John does... Perfect-It first, then Finesse-It. Actually, I find the spar varnish MUCH easier to polish out to originalshine than Varmor R-10. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: "Jojo DeLancier" Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:53 PMSubject: Re: Polishing John, I agree that any marks can be rubbed out, and this may have somethingto do with the spar I'm using, but there is a distinct difference between thegloss out of the can and anything I can create by rubbing, and I've tried many different compounds. Based on your experience, I suspect it's thevarnish I'm using. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "channer" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:24 PMSubject: Re: Polishing M-D;Spar varnish polishes back to the original shine to the point where you can't tell it's been polished with 3x magnifiers, that's what I likeabout spar. Just use 3-M's Perfect-It and Finesse-It polishingcompounds, they work like a charm.John from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 24 18:42:13 2001 f9ONgC419236 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:42:12 - (authenticated) Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:42:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Ferrule Problems Ray Wallace wrote: I neglected to dress the serrations enough, so now the thread wraps leavethe ferrules exposed. Not good at all. Is there anything I can use to make asmooth transition there? If I make a ramp with some glue will it show underthe wraps? I really don't want to remove the ferrules and start over. Anysuggestions? Ray, You might try some larger thread, like Gudebrod A or OO. Start the wraponthe bamboo rather than the metal, and wrap up. Keep things packed tightly. Goslow, and work your way up the ferrule tabs. Though it may take you 4-5tries,I bet you can wrap it where the tabs don't show. Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from anglport@con2.com Wed Oct 24 18:42:59 2001 f9ONgw419512 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:42:58 - Subject: Re: 1 piece M-D,As I recall, AJ was asked about making that a one-piece and what =should be added to that design. I believe he suggested "a ferrule".Art Subject: Re: 1 piece What about A.J.'s taper? =http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram444dx.html M-D I have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered, =heat treated, and staggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6" Max.) = M-D, = making that a one-piece and what should be added to that design. I = ferrule".Art ----- Original Message ----- Jojo =DeLancier Sent: Wednesday, October 24, = PMSubject: Re: 1 piece What about A.J.'s =taper? http:=//www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram444dx.html= M-D the same culm, rough tapered, heat treated, and staggered. Does any = from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Wed Oct 24 18:44:28 2001 f9ONiQ420071 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:44:26 - for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:44:21 - Subject: Ferrules Who was that guy who was selling quad ferrules. Any one have e mail or phone #Thanks.Joseph A Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith Rd.Portageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 24 18:50:45 2001 f9ONoi421700 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:50:44 - Subject: Re: 1 piece Art, Well, that's certainly good information to have. Thanks! M-D Subject: Re: 1 piece M-D,As I recall, AJ was asked about making that a one-piece and what =should be added to that design. I believe he suggested "a ferrule".Art Subject: Re: 1 piece What about A.J.'s taper? =http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram444dx.html M-D I have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered, =heat treated, and staggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6" Max.) = Art, Well, that's certainly = information to have. Thanks! M-D ----- Original Message ----- Art =Port Sent: Wednesday, October 24, = PMSubject: Re: 1 piece M-D, about making that a one-piece and what should be added to that design. = Art ----- Original Message ----- Jojo =DeLancier Sent: Wednesday, October 24, = PMSubject: Re: 1 piece What about A.J.'s =taper? http:=//www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram444dx.html= M-D the same culm, rough tapered, heat treated, and staggered. Does = = from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 24 18:52:11 2001 f9ONqA422172 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:52:10 - for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:52:16 - Subject: Re: Ferrules I thought that was Maulucci? Wasn't it Tony Larson who was making them? M-D Who was that guy who was selling quad ferrules. Any one have e mail orphone #Thanks.Joseph A Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith Rd.Portageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 from bob@downandacross.com Wed Oct 24 19:02:34 2001 f9P02X424762 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:02:33 -0500 Subject: RE: Dickerson book MD:Working on this now.Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Dickerson book Bob, similarity in certain Payne and Dickerson tapers. Wonder who was zoomingwhom? M-DFrom: Downandacross Rod Company SNIPI think the real depth comes up in the chapter comparing the Dickersonrods to other rods from famous makers. What a bunch of bunk.MORE SNIPPING Thanks,BobFrom: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Years ago, when I bought my copy of the Dickerson book,MAJOR SNIPPeter MD:Working on this now.Bob DeLancierSent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 9:45 = bookBob, without = please elaborate. I've noticed a similarity in certain Payne and = tapers. Wonder who was zooming whom? M-D Downandacross RodCompany = SNIP think the real depth comes up in the chapter comparing the Dickerson = other rods from famous makers. What a bunch of =bunk. Thanks,Bob McKeanYears ago, when I bought my copy = Dickerson book, MAJOR SNIPPeter= from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Oct 24 19:05:33 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9P05W425553 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:05:32 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:05:39 -0500 "RodMakers List (E-mail)" Subject: RE: False Adv. Line Wt. - I promise the last word on the subject! this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Peter - I don't recall, have you posted the actual measurements of the rod you made(not the taper you were trying to use, but the actual measurements)? If soI'll go look for it, if not, seeing it might help. This reminds me of my thefirst 7' 5 wt I made. It turned out to be a 7' 8wt. Ooops. So I cansympathize. As for crazy, I'll save everyone else the trouble of pointing out theobvious - of course you're crazy, why else would you be making fishing rods Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: False Adv. Line Wt. - I promise the last word on the subject! I just compared the mic measurements of my 5 weight that turned into an 8weight with those of a Garrison 8 weight salmon rod. The garrison is 8"9"but has a butt extension, which effectively makes it an 8 1/2 foot actionlike my newest blank. At most stations, the diameters are FATTER thanthatof the Garrison. So I ask for the last time, am I crazy? Peter Collin 0DocumentEmail Peter – = I don’t recall, have you posted the =actualmeasurements of the rod you made (not the taper you were trying =to use,but the actual measurements)? If so I’ll go look for it, if not, =seeing it mighthelp. This reminds me of my the first 7’ 5 wt I =made. It turnedout to be a 7’ 8wt. Ooops. So I can =sympathize. As for crazy, I’ll save everyone else =the trouble ofpointing out the obvious – of course you’re crazy, why else =would you be makingfishing rods by hand? Barry -----OriginalMessage-----From: Peter A. Collin Sent: Wednesday,October =24, 20012:42 PM Subject: False Adv. Line =Wt. - Ipromise the last word on the subject!= I justcompared the mic measurements of my 5 weight that turned into an 8 =weight with 8"9"but has a butt extension, which effectively makes it an 8 1/2 foot =action like that of crazy?= PeterCollin from hartzell@easystreet.com Wed Oct 24 19:19:50 2001 f9P0Jn428584 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:19:49 - f9P0JrJ29469; Subject: Re: Ferrule Problems Ray,You might try a narrow piece of transparent tape of the kind used torepairtears in books. Wrap around the joint between the cane and the ferruleserrations, covering both and then wrap the thread over it. Works for me.Ed Ray Wallace wrote: Hey all I'm finishing up a restoration on an old rod where I replaced the ferrules.I neglected to dress the serrations enough, so now the thread wraps leavethe ferrules exposed. Not good at all. Is there anything I can use to make asmooth transition there? If I make a ramp with some glue will it show underthe wraps? I really don't want to remove the ferrules and start over. Anysuggestions? Ray from stoltz10@home.com Wed Oct 24 19:56:44 2001 f9P0uh406170 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:56:43 - femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:56:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Smithwick binder I got the plans from Chris Bogart's site. I used plastic lawn mower =wheels insetead of pulleys and it seamed to work fine. Tim Subject: Re: Smithwick binder Tim:Where can I get a look at this Smithwick binder? Jack I got the plans from Chris Bogart's = used plastic lawn mower wheels insetead of pulleys and it seamed to work = fine. Tim ----- Original Message ----- Jacques Follweiler Sent: Wednesday, October 24, = PMSubject: Re: Smithwick =binder Tim:Where can I get a look at this = binder? Jack from bob@downandacross.com Wed Oct 24 19:57:15 2001 f9P0vE406338 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:57:14 -0500 Subject: RE: Dickerson book These are the pages below, from "Dickerson:The Man and His Rods" by GeraldS. Stein and James W. Schaaf. It is meant to provide a short part of thebook for review matched with the comments made before and forthcoming. Iencourage you all to go buy the book. Man, how did they cast and evaluateall those models? What a task. "...thus not compared here are the rods of such fine makers as GarrisonYoung and Summers - all of whom built semi-parabolic rods that would bediffficult compare with Dickerson's progressive actions - as well as thoseof the Edwards family,Granger, Howells, Winston, Orvis, and many others. Rods under 7': Dickerson made no fly rods under 6'6" in length, and nocompletely intact 2-piece, 6611 rod was available (though Tim Bedford wrotethat the Model 6611 was a rod) to compare with other outstanding short,Zpiece rods like Payne's Model 95 and 96. There are few 6'6" 3-piece rodswith which to compare Dickerson's Model 661510.7' Rods: Dickerson made 7' rods only in 2 piece configuration, a fewlight Model 7011 and mostly the Model 7012. Both are sweet rods and atleasthold their own with other 7" piece rods including Payne's excellent Model97. Neither Dickerson model is as fast as Payne Model 98 or Leonard's Model38H.The Payne appearance and action are consistent throughout the full rangeand from Dickerson's. Payne actions tend to be crisp, often with more actionin the last half of rod. Jim Payne set out to create elegant rods withflamed cane, legendary vanrish work, and beautiful hardware, mostly byHalstead.H. L. Leonard's hardy straightforward style, without emphasis on eleganceor innovation, seemed admirable to Dickerson. Yet Dickerson achieved aconsistency in his work that went far beyond that of Leonard. The betterexamples of Leonard rods, especially light models like the 38ACM comparewell with Dickerson's lighter Model 7011.7'6" Rods: Dickerson's Model 7612 holds its own with Payne's Model 100,as does Dickerson's faster Model 7613 with Payne's Model 101. It isdifficult to choose among four excellent 7'6" 2 piece rods. Payne's light,3-piece Model 197 casts better than Dickerson's piece Model 761510,althoughPayne's faster Model 198 does not compare.H. L. Leonard made excellent 7'6" rods. These include 3piece Models49DF,38.5, and other "Fairy" rods in the Ctaskill and Baby Catskill series.Outstanding "Fairy" rods were also made by FE Thomas, including 7' 2- pieceand 8' 3-piece rods with which Dickerson had little to compare except forhis Model 6611 and superb Model 8012. F. E. Thomas rods are difficult to evaluate as a make. Many werecustom- made. There is such wide variation among Thomas rods, including thediminishing quality of workmanship of the late rods. Thomas catalogs listnumerous actions available in each rod configuration, but individual rodswere not marked to designate their actions.E. C. Powell made so few rods 8' and under in length that it is difficult tofind and test representative samples. Some 7'6" and 8' 2 piece hollow-builtE. C. Powells are outstanding. Their precise yet smooth casting outshinestheir functional, understated appearance. 8' Rods: The most challenging competition comes from Jim Payne and H. L.Leonard, but no rod series compares with the extensive number ofexceptionalmodels found in the Dickerson 8' 2-piece series. Individual 8' 2-piecemodels like Payne's Models 102 are impressive, but the 8' 2-piece Payneseries is limited to only two models.In the 3-piece 8' models, Leonard Model 50DF's are outstanding but likeother Leonards this model varies greatly. The lighter 2-piece and 3-pieceGillums are excellent. Payne's Model 201 and Dickerson's Model 801611 .reimpressive, but perhaps slightly more so than the lighter Payne Model 200and Dickerson Model 801510. 8'6" Rods: Though the 3-piece Dickerson Model 861711 was one of his mostpopular rods, even its impressive performance and that of his Model 86E, iseclipsed by Jim Payne's exceptional 3-piece series: Models 204. 205. 206,and Canadian Canoe rods. These rods suggests (sic) that Jim Payne hasretired the trophy for this rod configuration. Dickerson made strong 8'6"2-piece rods like his Model 8615. They are not as satisfying, however, asthe E. C Powell rods, including some of the shorter half of the 8'6" - 9'Companion Rod sets. 9' Rods: Dickerson's Model 901711 and Model 901812 seem his outstanding9' 3-piece rods, followed by his sturdy Model 901913. Leonard's Model 51DFis comparable to the Model 901812. It is difficult to choose between JimPayne's fine Model 208 and the Dickerson 901711, or between Payne's Model209 and the Dickerson 901812. All are satisfying on big waters, but do nothold their own with E. C. Powell's lighter hollow-built series. This is alsotrue of E. C. Powell's 2-piece rods, compared with Dickerson's fine 2- pieceModel 9015 trout rod. Dickerson's Model 9016 is an outstanding salmon rod,comparable to Jim Payne's Model 430 (9' 2-piece).Rods over 9': Most of these Dickerson models are 3-piecesalmon/steelheadrods varying from 9'6" to 10'6" They do not compare with the best ofPayne's9'6" 3-piece salmon rods, the Model 410. Gillum, Leonard, F. E. Thomas, andE. C. Powell (in both hollow-built and solid-built rods) made outstandingsalmon/steelhead rods in lengths varying from 8'9" to 9'6". Impressive,two-hand salmon rods were also made by Payne, F. E. Thomas, and Leonard,though Dickerson's Ledger records only one such beauty. Rodmaker R. W. Summers made a more casual appraisal and comparison ofDickerson with other rodmakers, "He was a good engineer and craftsman,andsomewhat of an artist. Paul Young was probably a better fisherman, but thesmall details of rodmaking did not mean that much to him. I think Jim Paynecosmetically tried to be the most perfect of any of them. Dickerson andGarrison were a lot alike in the vein of being engineers. But, Dick wentinto it deeper than anyone. He did everything, Garrison used other people'sferrules. Dickerson rods hold up pretty well. They were built for workingrods." " -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Dickerson book Bob, similarity in certain Payne and Dickerson tapers. Wonder who was zoomingwhom? M-D SNIPI think the real depth comes up in the chapter comparing the Dickerson rodsto other rods from famous makers. What a bunch of bunk.MORE SNIPPING Thanks,Bob Years ago, when I bought my copy of the Dickerson book,MAJOR SNIPPeter from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Oct 24 19:57:40 2001 f9P0vd406572 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:57:39 - ([209.178.134.206] helo=g2t8c9) id 15wYq7-0001NP-00; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:57:43 -0700 Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat Thats some good stuff!I am going to add that info to the pile Adam Vigil Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat In the preliminary testing I've done the results look like this: Sample 1 was heat treated at 325=B0 F for 25 minutes, and 225=B0 F for=60 minutes, with continuous heat exposure from the beginning. Total =exposure time was 150 minutes. Beginning weight of strip was 6 grams. =Weight after heat treatment was 5.4 grams, for a loss of .6 grams of =water. Sample 2 was heat treated at 225=B0 F for 120 minutes, and 325=B0 F = exposure time was 180 minutes. Beginning weight of strip was 6.7 grams. =Weight after heat treatment was 6.0 grams, for a loss of .7 grams of =water. Surely you'd think that the additional exposure time, and the =additional hour at 225=B0 F would have made a more significant change in =Sample 2 than .1 gram. Guess what? In all the testing I did, some methods of heat treating =showed more promise at removing water, but many removed the sameamount = from their respective strips. One method didn't seem to work better than =the others, for the same amount of water removal. Only the exposure =times varied, not the end result. What remains to be determined is what =detrimental effect the various heat treatment methods may have had on =the bamboo, and does it really matter in the use of a making it into a =fly rod? M-D On page 167 of the Milward book he states that he heat treats tips = Lets them cool and afterwards heats them to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours =to fully dewater them.My problem:::::: If as he states the purpose of heat treating is to =remove water at a molecular level, how could you do this without =removing all the water in the heat treating process? It would seem that =the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours would come =before the heat treatment to remove the water at the molecular level.Can anyone enlighten me on this one?Dave Thats some good stuff! pile Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Jojo =DeLancier Sent: Wednesday, October 24, = AMSubject: Re: Milward Heat =Treat In the preliminary = done the results look like this: Sample 1 was heat = the beginning. Total exposure time was 150 minutes. Beginning weight = was 6 grams. Weight after heat treatment was 5.4 grams, for a loss of = of water. Sample 2 was heat = the beginning. Total exposure time was 180 minutes. Beginning weight = was 6.7 grams. Weight after heat treatment was 6.0 grams, for a loss = grams of water. Surely you'd think that= additional exposure time, and the additional hour at 225=B0 F would = more significant change in Sample 2 than .1 =gram. Guess what? In all the= did, some methods of heat treating showed more promise at removing = many removed the same amount from their respective strips. One method= = removal. Only the exposure times varied, not the end result. What = be determined is what detrimental effect the various heat treatment = may have had on the bamboo, and does it really matter in the use of a = it into a fly rod? M-D Dave = On page 167 of the Milward book = that he heat treats tips for 10 minutes and butts for 15 minutes at = Lets them cool and afterwards = 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully dewater them.My problem:::::: If as he states = of heat treating is to remove water at a molecular level, how could = this without removing all the water in the heat treating process? It = seem that the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 = come before the heat treatment to remove the water at the level.Can anyone enlighten me on one?Dave from ajthramer@hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 20:14:50 2001 f9P1En410945 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:14:49 - Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:14:51 -0700 Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:14:50 GMT Subject: Re: 1 piece FILETIME=[723F32F0:01C15CF2] Hey guys! I don't know, it might make a dandy one piece rod. The afformentioned comment was definately 'tongue in cheek'.A.J. From: "Jojo DeLancier" Subject: Re: 1 pieceDate: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:49:52 -0500 Art, Well, that's certainly good information to have. Thanks! M-D----- Original Message -----From: Art Port Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 6:41 PMSubject: Re: 1 piece M-D,As I recall, AJ was asked about making that a one-piece and what should be added to that design. I believe he suggested "a ferrule".Art----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 7:02 PMSubject: Re: 1 piece What about A.J.'s taper? http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram444dx.html M-DFrom: Vtbamboo@cs.com I have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered, heat treated, and staggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6" Max.) 1 piece tapers worth building? _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from tfbinn@mindspring.com Wed Oct 24 20:21:43 2001 f9P1Lh412608 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:21:43 - Subject: Re: Ferrules Joe, It was Tony Larson. He makes very nice ferrules.Try, pumpkin10@prodigy.netWinston from bob@downandacross.com Wed Oct 24 20:21:45 2001 f9P1Lh412612 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:21:44 - Subject: RE: Ferrules pumpkin10@prodigy.net is tony larson's e-mail, and he is the guy. i canbring you some on saturday. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Ferrules I thought that was Maulucci? Wasn't it Tony Larson who was making them? M-D Who was that guy who was selling quad ferrules. Any one have e mail orphone #Thanks.Joseph A Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith Rd.Portageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 from bob@downandacross.com Wed Oct 24 20:21:47 2001 f9P1Lk412635 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:21:46 - Subject: RE: Ferrule Problems try epoxy, it will work nicely to fill the gap. get a thin type. the rodwrapping type works. the 5 minute stuff does not, too thick. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Ferrule Problems Ray,You might try a narrow piece of transparent tape of the kind used torepairtears in books. Wrap around the joint between the cane and the ferruleserrations, covering both and then wrap the thread over it. Works for me.Ed Ray Wallace wrote: Hey all I'm finishing up a restoration on an old rod where I replaced the ferrules. I neglected to dress the serrations enough, so now the thread wraps leavethe ferrules exposed. Not good at all. Is there anything I can use to make a smooth transition there? If I make a ramp with some glue will it show under the wraps? I really don't want to remove the ferrules and start over. Anysuggestions? Ray from jojo@ipa.net Wed Oct 24 20:26:29 2001 f9P1QS414256 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:26:28 - for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:26:34 - Subject: Re: 1 piece A.J., Well, that's certainly better information to have. Thanks! M-D Hey guys! I don't know, it might make a dandy one piece rod. Theafformentioned comment was definately 'tongue in cheek'.A.J. From: "Jojo DeLancier" Art, Well, that's certainly good information to have. Thanks! M-D From: Art Port M-D,As I recall, AJ was asked about making that a one-piece and whatshould be added to that design. I believe he suggested "a ferrule".Art----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 7:02 PMSubject: Re: 1 piece What about A.J.'s taper?http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram444dx.html M-DFrom: Vtbamboo@cs.com I have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered,heat treated, and staggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6" Max.) 1 piece tapers worth building? from HomeyDKlown@att.net Wed Oct 24 20:54:48 2001 f9P1sm418458 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:54:48 - ;Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:54:49 +0000 Subject: RE: 1 piece A. J. and all, I made it as a one piece and loved it! Unfortunately, I also fractured itright at the grip and now have to repair the rod. It did get a lot of useand I tend to "oversnap" my casts, so I'll take the blame for the break, butI really like the taper. One of these days I'm going to make a two pieceversion and compare them. I'll letcha know... Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: 1 piece Hey guys! I don't know, it might make a dandy one piece rod. Theafformentioned comment was definately 'tongue in cheek'.A.J. From: "Jojo DeLancier" Subject: Re: 1 pieceDate: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:49:52 -0500 Art, Well, that's certainly good information to have. Thanks! M-D----- Original Message -----From: Art Port Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 6:41 PMSubject: Re: 1 piece M-D,As I recall, AJ was asked about making that a one-piece and whatshould be added to that design. I believe he suggested "a ferrule".Art----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 7:02 PMSubject: Re: 1 piece What about A.J.'s taper?http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram444dx.html M-DFrom: Vtbamboo@cs.com I have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered,heat treated, and staggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6" Max.) 1piece tapers worth building? _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from channer@frontier.net Wed Oct 24 21:07:23 2001 f9P27M419233 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:07:23 -0500 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:12:09 -0600 Subject: Re: Polishing M-D;I used to use Man-O-War and it polished very well, the only problem withit is it tends to pull out to the corners and leave a little valley overthe flats, kind of makes the rod look clover shaped or something. On therecommendation of Ron Kusse(a little harmless namedropping there), I'vebeen using Last&Last Marine and Door Spar Varnish and it not onlypolishes out great, but it lays flat on the rod, no valley to sand downto. Try it, you'll like itJohn Jojo DeLancier wrote: John, I agree that any marks can be rubbed out, and this may have something todowith the spar I'm using, but there is a distinct difference between thegloss out of the can and anything I can create by rubbing, and I've triedmany different compounds. Based on your experience, I suspect it's thevarnish I'm using. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "channer" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:24 PMSubject: Re: Polishing M-D;Spar varnish polishes back to the original shine to the point where youcan't tell it's been polished with 3x magnifiers, that's what I likeabout spar. Just use 3-M's Perfect-It and Finesse-It polishingcompounds, they work like a charm.John from channer@frontier.net Wed Oct 24 21:11:41 2001 f9P2Bd419606 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:11:40 - Subject: Re: Ferrule Problems Ray;As Marty said, just take the wrap off and file the serrations, I do thisas a part of installing ferrules on every rod I make.John Ray Wallace wrote: Hey all I'm finishing up a restoration on an old rod where I replaced the ferrules.I neglected to dress the serrations enough, so now the thread wraps leavethe ferrules exposed. Not good at all. Is there anything I can use to make asmooth transition there? If I make a ramp with some glue will it show underthe wraps? I really don't want to remove the ferrules and start over. Anysuggestions? Ray from dnorl@qwest.net Wed Oct 24 21:16:41 2001 f9P2Ge420047 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:16:40 - (63.228.47.28) Subject: Re: Ferrules Tony Larson e-mail pumpkin10@prodigy.netDave-----Original Message----- Subject: Ferrules Who was that guy who was selling quad ferrules. Any one have e mail orphone #Thanks.Joseph A Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith Rd.Portageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 from lblove@omniglobal.net Wed Oct 24 21:46:52 2001 f9P2kp421758 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:46:51 - Subject: Re: 1 piece f9P2kp421759 I've built the rod with out a ferrule andthink the world of it, it is fun with small fish on small streams. Bradhttp://lblove.users.omniglobal.net *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/25/01 at 1:14 AM Allen Thramer wrote: Hey guys! I don't know, it might make a dandy one piece rod. The afformentioned comment was definately 'tongue in cheek'.A.J. From: "Jojo DeLancier" Subject: Re: 1 pieceDate: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:49:52 -0500 Art, Well, that's certainly good information to have. Thanks! M-D----- Original Message -----From: Art Port Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 6:41 PMSubject: Re: 1 piece M-D,As I recall, AJ was asked about making that a one-piece and what should be added to that design. I believe he suggested "a ferrule".Art----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 7:02 PMSubject: Re: 1 piece What about A.J.'s taper? http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram444dx.html M-DFrom: Vtbamboo@cs.com I have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered, heat treated, and staggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6" Max.) 1 piece tapers worth building? _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 24 21:49:59 2001 f9P2nu422099 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:49:57 - (authenticated) for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:49:48 -0700 Subject: Eamon Lee Eamon, If you get this, would you please contact meoff-list? I've misplaced your email address. Thanks, and sorry for the bandwidth Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 25 01:54:56 2001 f9P6sr401115 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:54:54 - Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat Try the following: sub-atomic, quantum, thermal moisture replacement, anti moisturemolecular matter therapy, thermal electromagnetic radiation treatment,Atomic bombardment of the bamboo with excited atoms in a speciallydesigned chamber thermally insulated to prevent excessive escape of heat andburning of the users digits.Corpuscular removal of moisture by the scientific application of utilising the excitation of particles on the atomic level. There are heaps of things left. Tony At 05:16 PM 10/24/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Dave,if you want to write a book on rodmaking you have to make it different from the books that have been peviously written. How the next "writer" can top "molecular" will be difficult. I guess he could always make stuff up, eh, but rodmakers would not do that, wouldthey?Terry Dave Norling wrote: On page 167 of the Milward book he states that he heat treats tips for 10 minutes and butts for 15 minutes at 325 FLets them cool and afterwards heats them to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully dewater them.My problem:::::: If as he states the purpose of heat treating is to remove water at a molecular level, how could you do this without removing all the water in the heat treating process? It would seem that the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours wouldcome before the heat treatment to remove the water at the molecularlevel.Can anyone enlighten me on this one?Dave /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole by examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ from ajthramer@hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 02:17:00 2001 f9P7Gx401680 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:16:59 -0500 Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:17:01 -0700 Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:17:00 GMT Subject: RE: Dickerson book FILETIME=[0A5A55B0:01C15D25] I will confess that I enjoyed the book, heck, it wasn't any more disjointed than I am half the time. All taken with the large grain of salt though. This book as most before it has alot of half truth, urban rodmaker legend, and outright BS. There was more insight into the way that Dickerson thought about rodmaking than any real rodmaking information. That alone is very valuable. Many tapers were shamelessly appropriated. It is no accident that some Payne and Leonard tapers are awfully close...A.J. From: "Downandacross Rod Company" Subject: RE: Dickerson bookDate: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:57:18 -0400 These are the pages below, from "Dickerson:The Man and His Rods" byGeraldS. Stein and James W. Schaaf. It is meant to provide a short part of thebook for review matched with the comments made before and forthcoming.Iencourage you all to go buy the book. Man, how did they cast and evaluateall those models? What a task. "...thus not compared here are the rods of such fine makers as GarrisonYoung and Summers - all of whom built semi-parabolic rods that would bediffficult compare with Dickerson's progressive actions - as well as thoseof the Edwards family,Granger, Howells, Winston, Orvis, and many others. Rods under 7': Dickerson made no fly rods under 6'6" in length, and nocompletely intact 2-piece, 6611 rod was available (though Tim Bedfordwrotethat the Model 6611 was a rod) to compare with other outstanding short,Zpiece rods like Payne's Model 95 and 96. There are few 6'6" 3-piece rodswith which to compare Dickerson's Model 661510.7' Rods: Dickerson made 7' rods only in 2 piece configuration, a fewlight Model 7011 and mostly the Model 7012. Both are sweet rods and at leasthold their own with other 7" piece rods including Payne's excellent Model97. Neither Dickerson model is as fast as Payne Model 98 or Leonard'sModel38H.The Payne appearance and action are consistent throughout the full rangeand from Dickerson's. Payne actions tend to be crisp, often with more actionin the last half of rod. Jim Payne set out to create elegant rods withflamed cane, legendary vanrish work, and beautiful hardware, mostly byHalstead.H. L. Leonard's hardy straightforward style, without emphasis on eleganceor innovation, seemed admirable to Dickerson. Yet Dickerson achieved aconsistency in his work that went far beyond that of Leonard. The betterexamples of Leonard rods, especially light models like the 38ACM comparewell with Dickerson's lighter Model 7011.7'6" Rods: Dickerson's Model 7612 holds its own with Payne's Model 100,as does Dickerson's faster Model 7613 with Payne's Model 101. It isdifficult to choose among four excellent 7'6" 2 piece rods. Payne's light,3-piece Model 197 casts better than Dickerson's piece Model 761510, althoughPayne's faster Model 198 does not compare.H. L. Leonard made excellent 7'6" rods. These include 3piece Models49DF,38.5, and other "Fairy" rods in the Ctaskill and Baby Catskill series.Outstanding "Fairy" rods were also made by FE Thomas, including 7' 2- pieceand 8' 3-piece rods with which Dickerson had little to compare except forhis Model 6611 and superb Model 8012. F. E. Thomas rods are difficult to evaluate as a make. Many werecustom- made. There is such wide variation among Thomas rods, includingthediminishing quality of workmanship of the late rods. Thomas catalogs listnumerous actions available in each rod configuration, but individual rodswere not marked to designate their actions.E. C. Powell made so few rods 8' and under in length that it is difficult tofind and test representative samples. Some 7'6" and 8' 2 piece hollow-builtE. C. Powells are outstanding. Their precise yet smooth casting outshinestheir functional, understated appearance. 8' Rods: The most challenging competition comes from Jim Payne and H. L.Leonard, but no rod series compares with the extensive number of exceptionalmodels found in the Dickerson 8' 2-piece series. Individual 8' 2-piecemodels like Payne's Models 102 are impressive, but the 8' 2-piece Payneseries is limited to only two models.In the 3-piece 8' models, Leonard Model 50DF's are outstanding but likeother Leonards this model varies greatly. The lighter 2-piece and 3-pieceGillums are excellent. Payne's Model 201 and Dickerson's Model 801611 .reimpressive, but perhaps slightly more so than the lighter Payne Model 200and Dickerson Model 801510. 8'6" Rods: Though the 3-piece Dickerson Model 861711 was one of his mostpopular rods, even its impressive performance and that of his Model 86E, iseclipsed by Jim Payne's exceptional 3-piece series: Models 204. 205. 206,and Canadian Canoe rods. These rods suggests (sic) that Jim Payne hasretired the trophy for this rod configuration. Dickerson made strong 8'6"2-piece rods like his Model 8615. They are not as satisfying, however, asthe E. C Powell rods, including some of the shorter half of the 8'6" - 9'Companion Rod sets. 9' Rods: Dickerson's Model 901711 and Model 901812 seem his outstanding9' 3-piece rods, followed by his sturdy Model 901913. Leonard's Model 51DFis comparable to the Model 901812. It is difficult to choose between JimPayne's fine Model 208 and the Dickerson 901711, or between Payne'sModel209 and the Dickerson 901812. All are satisfying on big waters, but do nothold their own with E. C. Powell's lighter hollow-built series. This is alsotrue of E. C. Powell's 2-piece rods, compared with Dickerson's fine 2- pieceModel 9015 trout rod. Dickerson's Model 9016 is an outstanding salmon rod,comparable to Jim Payne's Model 430 (9' 2-piece).Rods over 9': Most of these Dickerson models are 3-piece salmon/steelheadrods varying from 9'6" to 10'6" They do not compare with the best of Payne's9'6" 3-piece salmon rods, the Model 410. Gillum, Leonard, F. E. Thomas, andE. C. Powell (in both hollow-built and solid-built rods) made outstandingsalmon/steelhead rods in lengths varying from 8'9" to 9'6". Impressive,two-hand salmon rods were also made by Payne, F. E. Thomas, and Leonard,though Dickerson's Ledger records only one such beauty. Rodmaker R. W. Summers made a more casual appraisal and comparison ofDickerson with other rodmakers, "He was a good engineer and craftsman,andsomewhat of an artist. Paul Young was probably a better fisherman, but thesmall details of rodmaking did not mean that much to him. I think Jim Paynecosmetically tried to be the most perfect of any of them. Dickerson andGarrison were a lot alike in the vein of being engineers. But, Dick wentinto it deeper than anyone. He did everything, Garrison used other people'sferrules. Dickerson rods hold up pretty well. They were built for workingrods." " -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Dickerson book Bob, similarity in certain Payne and Dickerson tapers. Wonder who was zoomingwhom? M-DFrom: Downandacross Rod Company SNIPI think the real depth comes up in the chapter comparing the Dickerson rodsto other rods from famous makers. What a bunch of bunk.MORE SNIPPING Thanks,BobFrom: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Years ago, when I bought my copy of the Dickerson book,MAJOR SNIPPeter _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from ajthramer@hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 02:36:00 2001 f9P7Zx402212 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:35:59 - Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:36:01 -0700 Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:36:01 GMT Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat FILETIME=[B1F9A440:01C15D27] I remember an article in a rod rag 8 or 10 years ago , interview with an Eastern Guru. Maintained that if you wanted to heat treat properly like the masters did you simply had to use pentane.... All those other 'tanes were apparently inadequate. I'm sorry guys but I have to laugh...A.J. From: Tony Young CC: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Milward Heat TreatDate: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:59:47 +0800 Try the following: sub-atomic, quantum, thermal moisture replacement, anti moisturemolecularmatter therapy, thermal electromagnetic radiation treatment,Atomic bombardment of the bamboo with excited atoms in a speciallydesignedchamber thermally insulated to prevent excessive escape of heat andburningof the users digits.Corpuscular removal of moisture by the scientific application of utilisingthe excitation of particles on the atomic level. There are heaps of things left. Tony At 05:16 PM 10/24/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Dave,if you want to write a book on rodmaking you have to make it different from the books that have been peviously written. How the next "writer" can top "molecular" will be difficult. I guess hecould always make stuff up, eh, but rodmakers would not do that, would they?Terry Dave Norling wrote: On page 167 of the Milward book he states that he heat treats tips for10 minutes and butts for 15 minutes at 325 FLets them cool andafterwards heats them to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully dewaterthem.My problem:::::: If as he states the purpose of heat treating is toremove water at a molecular level, how could you do this withoutremoving all the water in the heat treating process? It would seem thatthe two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours wouldcomebefore the heat treatment to remove the water at the molecularlevel.Cananyone enlighten me on this one?Dave /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/ _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 25 03:11:09 2001 f9P8B6402786 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:11:07 - dnorl@qwest.net Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat --=====================_9213421==_.ALT We'd need to use something like evacuTex=99 or replaceoLite=AE Tony At 07:36 AM 10/25/01 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: were apparently inadequate. I'm sorry guys but I have to laugh...A.J. From: Tony Young CC: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Milward Heat TreatDate: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:59:47 +0800 Try the following: sub-atomic, quantum, thermal moisture replacement, anti moisturemolecularmatter therapy, thermal electromagnetic radiation treatment,Atomic bombardment of the bamboo with excited atoms in a specially= designed chamber thermally insulated to prevent excessive escape of heat and= burning of the users digits.Corpuscular removal of moisture by the scientific application of utilisingthe excitation of particles on the atomic level. There are heaps of things left. Tony At 05:16 PM 10/24/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote: Dave,if you want to write a book on rodmaking you have to make it different from the books that have been peviously written. How the next "writer" can top "molecular" will be difficult. I guess hecould always make stuff up, eh, but rodmakers would not do that, would= they? Terry Dave Norling wrote: On page 167 of the Milward book he states that he heat treats tips for10 minutes and butts for 15 minutes at 325 FLets them cool andafterwards heats them to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully dewaterthem.My problem:::::: If as he states the purpose of heat treating is toremove water at a molecular level, how could you do this withoutremoving all the water in the heat treating process? It would seem thatthe two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours wouldcomebefore the heat treatment to remove the water at the molecularlevel.Cananyone enlighten me on this one?Dave /*************************************************************************= / AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************= / _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html examining it's parts individually. R. Buckminster Fuller. /*************************************************************************/--=====================_9213421==_.ALT We'd need to use something like evacuTex=99 orreplaceoLite=AE TonyAt 07:36 AM 10/25/01 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote:I remember an article in a rodrag8 or 10 years ago , interview with an Eastern Guru. Maintained that ifyou wanted to heat treat properly like the masters did you simply had to I'm sorry guys but I have to laugh...A.J. From: Tony Young Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat Try the following:sub-atomic, quantum, thermal moisture replacement, anti moisturemolecularmatter therapy, thermal electromagnetic radiation treatment,Atomic bombardment of the bamboo with excited atoms in a speciallydesignedchamber thermally insulated to prevent excessive escape of heat andburningof the users digits.Corpuscular removal of moisture by the scientific application ofutilisingthe excitation of particles on the atomic level.There are heaps of things left.Tony At 05:16 PM 10/24/01 -0400, T. Ackland wrote:Dave,if you want to write a book on rodmaking you have to make itdifferent from the books that have been peviously written.How the next "writer" can top "molecular" will bedifficult. I guess hecould always make stuff up, eh, but rodmakers would not do that, wouldthey?TerryDave Norling wrote: Milwardbook he states that he heat treats tips for10 minutes and butts for 15 minutes at 325 FLets them cool andafterwards heats them to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully dewaterthem.My problem:::::: If as he states the purpose of heat treating istoremove water at a molecular level, how could you do this withoutremoving all the water in the heat treating process? It would seemthatthe two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours wouldcomebefore the heat treatment to remove the water at the molecularlevel.Cananyone enlighten me on this one?Dave/*************************************************************************/AV Young www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html byexamining it's parts individually.R. Buckminster Fuller./*************************************************************************/ _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: There's no way of predicting the purpose or behavior of the whole byexamining it's parts individually.R. Buckminster Fuller./*************************************************************************/ --=====================_9213421==_.ALT-- from pcollin@rochester.rr.com Thu Oct 25 05:51:38 2001 f9PApc404378 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 05:51:38 - f9PAojF09926 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 06:50:45 - Subject: Skinny tips Yesterday I cast the right 8 1/2 foot 5 weight for me. It was a Leonard =50 1/2 Tournament. It cast like dream, and weighed only 4.25 ounces. =Only thing is, the tips are awful wispy. I think I may have heard =something about Tournament Models being for casting competitions only, =and weren't meant for fishing. I wonder if those skinny tips can =withstand the rigors of fishing. I miked it and, WITH varnish, the tip =comes to .052 inches. What do you all think? Peter Collin Yesterday I cast the right 8 1/2 foot 5= think? PeterCollin from jojo@ipa.net Thu Oct 25 07:11:28 2001 f9PCBQ405318 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:11:26 -0500 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:11:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Dickerson book Heresy! The Spanish Inquisition will hear of this! M-D I will confess that I enjoyed the book, heck, it wasn't any more disjointed than I am half the time. All taken with the large grain of salt though. This book as most before it has alot of half truth, urban rodmaker legend, andoutright BS. There was more insight into the way that Dickerson thoughtabout rodmaking than any real rodmaking information. That alone is veryvaluable. Many tapers were shamelessly appropriated. It is no accident that some Payne and Leonard tapers are awfully close...A.J. From: "Downandacross Rod Company" These are the pages below, from "Dickerson:The Man and His Rods" by Gerald S. Stein and James W. Schaaf. SNIP from jojo@ipa.net Thu Oct 25 07:18:32 2001 f9PCIW405620 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:18:32 -0500 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:18:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat Methane, ethane, butane, pentane, etc. -- a hydrocarbon by any other namewould smell so sweet. Ah, but was it n-pentane, or isopentane? Actually, I bet they used AmylHydride. (Chemical humor for the chemically challenged) M-D I remember an article in a rod rag 8 or 10 years ago , interview with anEastern Guru. Maintained that if you wanted to heat treat properly like the masters did you simply had to use pentane.... All those other 'tanes wereapparently inadequate. I'm sorry guys but I have to laugh...A.J. from jojo@ipa.net Thu Oct 25 07:51:26 2001 f9PCpQ406256 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:51:26 -0500 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:51:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Skinny tips Peter, There are others better left to address the Tournament rod issue, but =look at the tips on some of the Payne tapers. Those are fishing rods, =too. M-D Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:44 AMSubject: Skinny tips Yesterday I cast the right 8 1/2 foot 5 weight for me. It was a =Leonard 50 1/2 Tournament. It cast like dream, and weighed only 4.25 =ounces. Only thing is, the tips are awful wispy. I think I may have =heard something about Tournament Models being for casting competitions =only, and weren't meant for fishing. I wonder if those skinny tips can =withstand the rigors of fishing. I miked it and, WITH varnish, the tip =comes to .052 inches. What do you all think? Peter Collin Peter, There are othersbetter = address the Tournament rod issue, but look at the tips on some of the = tapers. Those are fishing rods, too. M-D ----- Original Message ----- A. Collin Sent: Thursday, October 25, = AMSubject: Skinny tips Yesterday I cast the right 8 1/2 foot = think? Collin from bhoy551@earthlink.net Thu Oct 25 08:00:13 2001 f9PD0C406617 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:00:12 -0500 Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:00:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Polishing FILETIME=[FFBAC1F0:01C15D54] Hi, John, Never heard of Last&Last varnish. I've had a problem with valleys using epiphanes. Where do you get this? Who makes it? Bill Hoy At 08:09 PM 10/24/2001 -0600, channer wrote: M-D;I used to use Man-O-War and it polished very well, the only problem withit is it tends to pull out to the corners and leave a little valley overthe flats, kind of makes the rod look clover shaped or something. On therecommendation of Ron Kusse(a little harmless namedropping there), I'vebeen using Last&Last Marine and Door Spar Varnish and it not onlypolishes out great, but it lays flat on the rod, no valley to sand downto. Try it, you'll like itJohn Jojo DeLancier wrote: John, I agree that any marks can be rubbed out, and this may have somethingto dowith the spar I'm using, but there is a distinct difference between thegloss out of the can and anything I can create by rubbing, and I've triedmany different compounds. Based on your experience, I suspect it's thevarnish I'm using. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "channer" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:24 PMSubject: Re: Polishing M-D;Spar varnish polishes back to the original shine to the point where youcan't tell it's been polished with 3x magnifiers, that's what I likeabout spar. Just use 3-M's Perfect-It and Finesse-It polishingcompounds, they work like a charm.John from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Thu Oct 25 09:17:04 2001 f9PEH3408807 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:17:03 - Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:17:11 -0400 Subject: RE: Ferrule Problems Hi Ray, I have found that when working with 2 part epoxies for making transitions allows me time to smooth using denatured alcohol. Once done allow to dry acouple of days, because of the color of the epoxy the color shift is notnoticeable. Make sure you use glove to do this. Take care, Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker -----Original Message----- Subject: Ferrule Problems Hey all I'm finishing up a restoration on an old rod where I replaced the ferrules.I neglected to dress the serrations enough, so now the thread wraps leavethe ferrules exposed. Not good at all. Is there anything I can use to make asmooth transition there? If I make a ramp with some glue will it show underthe wraps? I really don't want to remove the ferrules and start over. Anysuggestions? Ray from Kengorific@aol.com Thu Oct 25 10:00:31 2001 f9PF0U410516 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:00:30 - for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:58:33 - Subject: inexpensive dial calipers To anyone looking for a low cast caliper, the last Enco catalog I received has severaldail calipers for $15 to $35 US. Check out thier web page, www.use- enco.com or 1-800-873-3626. model # am610-5026, am610-5055, am890- 9523. No comercial intrest etc... from alan.grombacher@pioneer.com Thu Oct 25 10:20:23 2001 f9PFKM411421 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:20:22 - 25 Oct 2001 11:19:34 -0400 id ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:19:20 -0500 Rodmakers Subject: RE: Skinny tips this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Peter, I have a Leonard model 50 1/2 tournament 8 1/2 foot 3 piece 5 weight. What a beauty it is. Unlike any other rod that I have had the pleasure tocast. I always say that I just hold it, and it casts a line all by itself. Mine has "skinny tips". Never had a problem with them. Mine was made (Ithink) circa 1935 - I am the second owner (lucky me). But I do have atendency to like/prefer heavy tips, but hey that is just me. Cheers, Alberta Al -----Original Message----- Subject: Skinny tips Yesterday I cast the right 8 1/2 foot 5 weight for me. It was a Leonard 501/2 Tournament. It cast like dream, and weighed only 4.25 ounces. Onlything is, the tips are awful wispy. I think I may have heard somethingabout Tournament Models being for casting competitions only, and weren'tmeant for fishing. I wonder if those skinny tips can withstand the rigorsof fishing. I miked it and, WITH varnish, the tip comes to .052 inches.What do you all think? Peter Collin Peter, I have a Leonard model 50 1/2 tournament 8 1/2 foot 3 piece 5 weight. What a itself. Mine Mine was have a tendency to like/prefer heavy tips, but hey that is just me. Cheers, Alberta Al -----Original Message-----From: Peter A. Collin 25, 2001 tipsYesterday I cast the right 8 1/2 foot 5weight awful you all think? Peter Collin from bhoy551@earthlink.net Thu Oct 25 10:59:35 2001 f9PFxY413183 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:59:34 -0500 Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:37:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Polishing FILETIME=[F24095C0:01C15D6A] I did a thomas register search, and it's LastnLast (www.lastnlast.com) They have a dealer listing. Bill At 09:02 AM 10/25/2001 -0400, Bill Hoy wrote: Hi, John, Never heard of Last&Last varnish. I've had a problem with valleys using epiphanes. Where do you get this? Who makes it? Bill Hoy At 08:09 PM 10/24/2001 -0600, channer wrote: M-D;I used to use Man-O-War and it polished very well, the only problem withit is it tends to pull out to the corners and leave a little valley overthe flats, kind of makes the rod look clover shaped or something. On therecommendation of Ron Kusse(a little harmless namedropping there), I'vebeen using Last&Last Marine and Door Spar Varnish and it not onlypolishes out great, but it lays flat on the rod, no valley to sand downto. Try it, you'll like itJohn Jojo DeLancier wrote: John, I agree that any marks can be rubbed out, and this may have something to do with the spar I'm using, but there is a distinct difference between thegloss out of the can and anything I can create by rubbing, and I've triedmany different compounds. Based on your experience, I suspect it's thevarnish I'm using. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "channer" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:24 PMSubject: Re: Polishing M-D;Spar varnish polishes back to the original shine to the point where youcan't tell it's been polished with 3x magnifiers, that's what I likeabout spar. Just use 3-M's Perfect-It and Finesse-It polishingcompounds, they work like a charm.John from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Thu Oct 25 12:39:59 2001 f9PHdw418141 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:39:58 - Subject: UK Rodmakers Bash..... All, We are on the eve of the UK's first bamboo rodmakers bash and 'we' wouldlike to say a big thankyou to all the list members who have given us thebenefit of their experience in running similar events the other side ofthe pond.I'll keep you posted on what happened and if it met ourexpectations..........Paul from rextutor@about.com Thu Oct 25 12:45:59 2001 f9PHjm418671 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:45:48 - (NPlex 5.5.029) Subject: Polishing out drips I am strugg;ling with a change in temp I think. My dip tube worked fine until this week. It is giving me runs and drips. I have filter the spar urethane with nylon stocking. It has alot of bubbles. I tired again but waited over 15 minutes and still got runs. I am going to move to a room over 50 degrees. I am guessing the garage gets down to 40 this week and up to 65.I want to try your polishing idea. I found 3M finessse-it II and Perfect it Foam Polishing Pad glaze. Is that close to what you use ? Specifically how do you use it ?TIA Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 12:50:58 2001 f9PHov419104 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:50:57 - 25 Oct 2001 10:50:59 PDT Subject: Re: Polishing out drips try a heat strip around your varnish tube. timothy --- Rex Tutor wrote: I am strugg;ling with a change in temp I think. My dip tube worked fine until this week. It is giving me runs and drips. I have filter the spar urethane with nylon stocking. It has alot of bubbles. I tired again but waited over 15 minutes and still got runs. I am going to move to a room over 50 degrees. I am guessing the garage gets down to 40 this week and up to 65.I want to try your polishing idea. I found 3M finessse-it II and Perfect it Foam Polishing Pad glaze. Is that close to what you use ? Specifically how do you use it ?TIA Sign up for a free About Email account athttp://About.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from Andrew_Harsanyi@ibi.com Thu Oct 25 14:26:50 2001 f9PJQo424179 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:26:50 - 0400 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:15:25 -0400 id ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:12:03 -0400 Subject: RE: 1 piece Same here and I know of someone else that made it in one piece as well. Itcasts great. Plenty of punch. Yes I am lazy. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: 1 piece I've built the rod with out a ferrule andthink the world of it, it is fun with small fish on small streams. Bradhttp://lblove.users.omniglobal.net *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/25/01 at 1:14 AM Allen Thramer wrote: Hey guys! I don't know, it might make a dandy one piece rod. The afformentioned comment was definately 'tongue in cheek'.A.J. From: "Jojo DeLancier" Subject: Re: 1 pieceDate: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:49:52 -0500 Art, Well, that's certainly good information to have. Thanks! M-D----- Original Message -----From: Art Port Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 6:41 PMSubject: Re: 1 piece M-D,As I recall, AJ was asked about making that a one-piece and what should be added to that design. I believe he suggested "a ferrule".Art----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 7:02 PMSubject: Re: 1 piece What about A.J.'s taper? http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram444dx.html M-DFrom: Vtbamboo@cs.com I have 6 strips left over from the same culm, rough tapered, heat treated, and staggered. Does any one know of any short (4' 6" Max.) 1 piece tapers worth building? _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 15:55:23 2001 f9PKtM428903 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:55:22 - Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:55:24 -0700 Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:55:14 GMT Subject: Re: Polishing out drips FILETIME=[5E5D4420:01C15D97] Rex: varnish warm up to about 70 degree's. Then you can take it to the garage an hour and the varnish won't have time to cool down before you'vecompleted the dipping process. Bring the dip tube into the house betweencoats so as to not let the varnish cool down and cause Jim Polishing out drips Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from anglport@con2.com Thu Oct 25 16:41:14 2001 f9PLfE401413 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:41:14 - Subject: Re: Polishing out drips Rex,I've always wrapped my tube in that low-heat no-freeze electrical =pipewrap you can get for pipes which are in unprotected areas of a home. =It's thermostatically controlled (theough I've never seen any where you =can adjust the thermostat) and it raises my diptube to about 90 degs or =so in a basement that's probably at about 60 or so. I think it's named =Zero King or somesuch. Check a Home Depot or Lowes or someplace like =that.Art Subject: Re: Polishing out drips Rex: Why don't you bring your dip tube into your home and let the varnish =warm up to about 70 degree's. Then you can take it to the garage for the =actual dipping process. A three piece rod can be dipped in less then an =hour and the varnish won't have time to cool down before you've =completed the dipping process. Bring the dip tube into the house between = =Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------------=-----Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Rex, wrapped = that low-heat no-freeze electrical pipewrap you can get for pipes which = unprotected areas of a home. It's thermostatically controlled (theough = never seen any where you can adjust the thermostat) and it raises my = about 90 degs or so in a basement that's probably at about 60 or so. I = it's named Zero King or somesuch. Check a Home Depot or Lowes or = that.Art ----- Original Message ----- Bureau rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Thursday, October 25, = PMSubject: Re: Polishing out =drips Rex: warm up to about 70 degree's. Then you can take it to the garage for = actual dipping process. A three piece rod can be dipped in less then = and the varnish won't have time to cool down before you've completed = dipping process. Bring the dip tube into the house between coats so as = = Jim Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from "Marty D. aka \"none" Thu Oct 25 16:56:23 2001 f9PLuM402112 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:56:22 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4166. . Clean. Processed in 0.562239 secs); 25 Oct 200121:49:50 -0000 Subject: Re: Polishing I see the Last & Last spar at my local paint store. I use prat & Lambert #Spar and have loved it. Quite expensive though $ 23 a quart and $60 a gallon.MartyBill Hoy wrote$ Hi, John, Never heard of Last&Last varnish. I've had a problem with valleys usingepiphanes. Where do you get this? Who makes it? Bill Hoy At 08:09 PM 10/24/2001 -0600, channer wrote: M-D;I used to use Man-O-War and it polished very well, the only problem withit is it tends to pull out to the corners and leave a little valley overthe flats, kind of makes the rod look clover shaped or something. On therecommendation of Ron Kusse(a little harmless namedropping there), I'vebeen using Last&Last Marine and Door Spar Varnish and it not onlypolishes out great, but it lays flat on the rod, no valley to sand downto. Try it, you'll like itJohn Jojo DeLancier wrote: John, I agree that any marks can be rubbed out, and this may havesomething to dowith the spar I'm using, but there is a distinct difference between thegloss out of the can and anything I can create by rubbing, and I've triedmany different compounds. Based on your experience, I suspect it'sthevarnish I'm using. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "channer" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:24 PMSubject: Re: Polishing M-D;Spar varnish polishes back to the original shine to the point whereyoucan't tell it's been polished with 3x magnifiers, that's what I likeabout spar. Just use 3-M's Perfect-It and Finesse-It polishingcompounds, they work like a charm.John from rextutor@about.com Thu Oct 25 17:25:58 2001 f9PMPv403151 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:25:57 - (NPlex 5.5.029) Subject: Re: Polishing out drips Im pretty sure I don't have a temp problem. I pulled the tube into a very warm room in the house which is a glass room/ sunroom. I bet it is 80 in there today. I did a tip real fast without trouble. Fast is 30 seconds instead of a minute per 5 inches (diameter is 2 inches). No drips but it is still wet and I can't tell how good it is yet. I did cover everything and it is nice and thin. I am off to try a mid. It is a pretty rod I am restoring , a Phillipson . The butt has bubbles from yesterday and I will have least 15 maybe 30 minutes after filling the tube many bubbles there are in the tube. It looks like Lawrence Welk in there.Sign up fora free About Email account at http://About.com from Vtbamboo@cs.com Thu Oct 25 17:39:43 2001 f9PMdg403773 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:39:42 - for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:39:37 - Subject: Sawing strips Any one have any tips or jigs for sawing strips? Any one have any tips orjigs for sawing strips? from pohl@earthlink.net Thu Oct 25 17:44:08 2001 f9PMi7404146 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:44:07 - id 15wtEU-0002kQ-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:44:14 -0700 Subject: winston, PHY rod tapers I met a new friend that is going to mentor me on my first rod and i'm =deciding on a taper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i believe the midge) built in =which i casted. It was a nice soft rod but was kind of on the short =side. I checked out some tapers on the "rodmakers data base archive" and =found a winston that i might be interested in building - 7' 4wt. My =questions - can someone please give there opinions on both of these =rods. ie. their weight, action and anything else they want to share.... =does the winston have to be hollow fluted? my mentor called the PHY a =3wt. i casted the rod with a 4wt and it casted fine on the lawn, never =fished it. they always cast good on the lawn. I'm looking to build a rod =that will fish well with a 4wt, what are opinions of the proper line for = I met a new friend that is going to = archive" and found a winston that i might be interested in building - 7' = fine on the lawn, never fished it. they always cast good on the = looking to build a rod that will fish well with a 4wt, what are opinions = from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 25 18:34:49 2001 f9PNYl406375 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:34:47 - Subject: Re: Sawing strips Don't. Splitting using the Nunly/McKean method is not only faster it's more satisfying. Tony At 06:39 PM 10/25/01 -0400, Vtbamboo@cs.com wrote: Any one have any tips or jigs for sawing strips? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from timklein@qwest.net Thu Oct 25 18:53:46 2001 f9PNrj407245 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:53:45 - Subject: Re: heat gun oven question Frank wrote: Those who use your heat gun ovens horizontally...do you have a wirescreen to support the strips or do they just lay in the tube? Frank, Yes, I use a screen, though I can't really give you a good reason other thanthe fact it makes the sections easier to get in and out of the oven. I laythe sections on the screen, and then slide the screen into and out of theoven like a tray. If they were sitting on the tube, it'd be a lot tougher toflip them end for end. Originally, I just used a flat piece of metal screening but the thing wouldsometimes slip sideways as I was inserting it into the oven, dumping mybound strips. Now, I'm using a piece of screen that's designed to fit overrain gutters to keep leaves and gunk out. It was nicely pre-curved, and fitperfectly inside my inner chamber. Got it at Home Depot for a couple bucks,and the curve keeps it from dumping the strips.---Tim from "Marty D. aka \"none" Thu Oct 25 20:08:06 2001 f9Q185409039 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:08:05 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4166. . Clean. Processed in 0.754698 secs); 26 Oct 200100:36:22 -0000 Subject: Re: winston, PHY rod tapers --------------4C6EDE04A4EEE27ED4F81E09 The 6'3" Midge as Young designed it took a #4 or 5 (HEH). The later"smidgen" takes I believe a #3. The Winson 7'er along with the Granger7' are nice 4 wight tapers. The Granger having a quicker action. Marty Mark & Kathy Pohl wrote: I met a new friend that is going to mentor me on my first rod and i'mdeciding on a taper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i believe the midge) builtin which i casted. It was a nice soft rod but was kind of on the shortside. I checked out some tapers on the "rodmakers data base archive"and found a winston that i might be interested in building - 7' 4wt.My questions - can someone please give there opinions on both of theserods. ie. their weight, action and anything else they want toshare.... does the winston have to be hollow fluted? my mentor calledthe PHY a 3wt. i casted the rod with a 4wt and it casted fine on thelawn, never fished it. they always cast good on the lawn. I'm lookingto build a rod that will fish well with a 4wt, what are opinions ofthe proper line for this rod. Thanks, Mark --------------4C6EDE04A4EEE27ED4F81E09 The 6'3" Midge as Young designed it took a #4 or 5 (HEH). The later "smidgen"takes I believe a #3. The Winson 7'er along with the Granger 7' are nice4 wight tapers. The Granger having a quicker action. MartyMark & Kathy Pohl wrote: Imet a new friend that is going to mentor me on my first rod and i'm decidingon a taper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i believe the midge) built in which icasted. It was a nice soft rod but was kind of on the short side. I checkedout some tapers on the "rodmakers data base archive" and found a winstonthat i might be interested in building - 7' 4wt. My questions - can someoneplease give there opinions on both of these rods. ie. their weight, actionand anything else they want to share.... does the winston have to be hollowfluted? my mentor called the PHY a 3wt. i casted the rod with a 4wt andit casted fine on the lawn, never fished it. they always cast good on thelawn. I'm looking to build a rod that will fish well with a 4wt, what areopinions of the proper line for this rod. Thanks,Mark --------------4C6EDE04A4EEE27ED4F81E09-- from channer@frontier.net Thu Oct 25 20:20:35 2001 f9Q1KY409231 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:20:34 - for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:51:47 - Subject: Re: Polishing out drips Rex;The speed you're pulling it at is what is causing the problem, that andletting the dipped rod sit to dry in the cold. Keep everything at leastroom temp until it is dry and pull slow, go back to whatever speed youused when you didn't have any runs.john Rex Tutor wrote: Im pretty sure I don't have a temp problem. Ipulled the tube into a very warm room in thehouse which is a glass room/ sunroom. I bet itis 80 in there today. I did a tip real fastwithout trouble. Fast is 30 seconds instead of aminute per 5 inches (diameter is 2 inches). Nodrips but it is still wet and I can't tell howgood it is yet. I did cover everything and it isnice and thin. I am off to try a mid. It is apretty rod I am restoring , a Phillipson . Thebutt has bubbles from yesterday and I will haveto strip it and re do it. I am going to wait atleast 15 maybe 30 minutes after filling the tube many bubbles there are in the tube. It lookslike Lawrence Welk in there. Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com from channer@frontier.net Thu Oct 25 20:20:35 2001 f9Q1KY409232 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:20:34 - for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:51:35 - Subject: Re: Polishing Marty;I think I paid about 17 bucks a quart for the Last&Last, I've never usedP&L varnish, but I have spread a lot of their paint, their paint isn'tany better than anyone else's, just costs more.jmhojohn "Marty D. aka \"none" wrote: I see the Last & Last spar at my local paint store. I use prat & Lambert #Spar and have loved it. Quite expensive though $ 23 a quart and $60 agallon.MartyBill Hoy wrote$ Hi, John, Never heard of Last&Last varnish. I've had a problem with valleys usingepiphanes. Where do you get this? Who makes it? Bill Hoy At 08:09 PM 10/24/2001 -0600, channer wrote: M-D;I used to use Man-O-War and it polished very well, the only problem withit is it tends to pull out to the corners and leave a little valley overthe flats, kind of makes the rod look clover shaped or something. Ontherecommendation of Ron Kusse(a little harmless namedropping there),I'vebeen using Last&Last Marine and Door Spar Varnish and it not onlypolishes out great, but it lays flat on the rod, no valley to sand downto. Try it, you'll like itJohn Jojo DeLancier wrote: John, I agree that any marks can be rubbed out, and this may havesomething to dowith the spar I'm using, but there is a distinct difference betweenthegloss out of the can and anything I can create by rubbing, and I'vetriedmany different compounds. Based on your experience, I suspect it'sthevarnish I'm using. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "channer" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:24 PMSubject: Re: Polishing M-D;Spar varnish polishes back to the original shine to the point whereyoucan't tell it's been polished with 3x magnifiers, that's what I likeabout spar. Just use 3-M's Perfect-It and Finesse-It polishingcompounds, they work like a charm.John from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Oct 25 21:08:02 2001 f9Q27uL10453 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:07:56 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:04:20 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: winston, PHY rod tapers --------------053DC825227EF35A84D98040 Mark,to answer your question, I would first ask you the same questions Iask mycustomers and inquisitive friends (I think most here would agree?),"What type of fish do you intend to use this rod for? Is it open big water orsmalleastern brooks you fish?? Are you looking for presentation or distance??Fast or slowaction?"I'm not saying this to sound holier than thou type thing, it just helps ifweknow what type of rod you are looking for.Shawn Mark & Kathy Pohl wrote: I met a new friend that is going to mentor me on my first rod and i'mdeciding on ataper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i believe the midge) built in which i casted. Itwas anice soft rod but was kind of on the short side. I checked out some taperson the"rodmakers data base archive" and found a winston that i might beinterested inbuilding - 7' 4wt. My questions - can someone please give there opinions onboth ofthese rods. ie. their weight, action and anything else they want to share....doesthe winston have to be hollow fluted? my mentor called the PHY a 3wt. icasted therod with a 4wt and it casted fine on the lawn, never fished it. they alwayscastgood on the lawn. I'm looking to build a rod that will fish well with a 4wt,whatare opinions of the proper line for this rod. Thanks, Mark --------------053DC825227EF35A84D98040 Mark, yourquestion, I would first ask you the same questions I ask my customers andinquisitive friends (I think most here would agree?),"What type of fish do you intend to use this rod for? Is it open bigwater or small eastern brooks you fish?? Are you looking for presentationor distance?? Fast or slow action?" holierthan thou type thing, it just helps if we know what type of rod you arelooking for. ShawnMark & Kathy Pohl wrote: Imet a new friend that is going to mentor me on my first rod and i'm decidingon a taper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i believe the midge) built in which icasted. It was a nice soft rod but was kind of on the short side. I checkedout some tapers on the "rodmakers data base archive" and found a winstonthat i might be interested in building - 7' 4wt. My questions - can someoneplease give there opinions on both of these rods. ie. their weight, actionand anything else they want to share.... does the winston have to be hollowfluted? my mentor called the PHY a 3wt. i casted the rod with a 4wt andit casted fine on the lawn, never fished it. they always cast good on thelawn. I'm looking to build a rod that will fish well with a 4wt, what areopinions of the proper line for this rod. Thanks,Mark --------------053DC825227EF35A84D98040-- from blitzenrods@yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 22:20:44 2001 f9Q3KhL12545 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:20:43 - Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:20:50 PDT Subject: Re: Ferrule Problems Ray, Like some others have said, you should be able to filethe serrations while the ferrule is on the rod. I wrapone layer of masking tape around the bamboo where itmeets the ferrule to protect the bamboo, then smoothlyand carefully file away with a small file. If you don't want to file at this point, then anotheroption besides the ones already mentioned is to do a 5turn wrap up against the ferrule tabs and tie it off,then use this wrap as a ramp for your next wrap whichbegins just before this wrap, goes up over it, andonto the ferrule. You can either seal it withsomething, let it dry, then wrap over it, or wrap overunfinished being careful to turn your wraps closetogether. I've worked on some Hardy fly rods and Heddonbaitcasting rods that had the ramp wrap, as well assome that were double wrapped at the ferrule. Chris --- Ray Wallace wrote: Hey all I'm finishing up a restoration on an old rod where Ireplaced the ferrules.I neglected to dress the serrations enough, so nowthe thread wraps leavethe ferrules exposed. Not good at all. Is thereanything I can use to make asmooth transition there? If I make a ramp with someglue will it show underthe wraps? I really don't want to remove theferrules and start over. Anysuggestions? Ray __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from lblove@omniglobal.net Thu Oct 25 22:40:12 2001 f9Q3eCL13085 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:40:12 - Subject: PHY para 13 --=====_100404960941=_ Does anyone have any comments for oragainst the PHY para 13 taper? I am looking one. What other tapers would anybody suggest a rod for the San Juan below Navajo Dam. tiaBrad --=====_100404960941=_ Does anyone have any comments for or looking a rod for the San Juan below NavajoDam. tiaBrad --=====_100404960941=_-- from ctn45555@centurytel.net Thu Oct 25 22:42:15 2001 f9Q3gEL13357 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:42:14 - for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:42:19 - Organization: Smith & Boyd Subject: Re: Ferrule Problems Ray: I did something similar on my first rod. I didn't get the ferruleserations on the tips as thin as they should be. At that point I was tooparanoid to file with the things glued to the blank, so I started thethread at the ferrule, wrapped 1 quarter inch toward the tip, thenchanged directions and wrapped up onto the ferrule shoulder (i.e. onewrap on the ferrule, and two wraps on the blank). Turned out great. Good luck, Chad Chris McDowell wrote: Ray, Like some others have said, you should be able to filethe serrations while the ferrule is on the rod. I wrapone layer of masking tape around the bamboo where itmeets the ferrule to protect the bamboo, then smoothlyand carefully file away with a small file. If you don't want to file at this point, then anotheroption besides the ones already mentioned is to do a 5turn wrap up against the ferrule tabs and tie it off,then use this wrap as a ramp for your next wrap whichbegins just before this wrap, goes up over it, andonto the ferrule. You can either seal it withsomething, let it dry, then wrap over it, or wrap overunfinished being careful to turn your wraps closetogether. I've worked on some Hardy fly rods and Heddonbaitcasting rods that had the ramp wrap, as well assome that were double wrapped at the ferrule. Chris --- Ray Wallace wrote: Hey all I'm finishing up a restoration on an old rod where Ireplaced the ferrules.I neglected to dress the serrations enough, so nowthe thread wraps leavethe ferrules exposed. Not good at all. Is thereanything I can use to make asmooth transition there? If I make a ramp with someglue will it show underthe wraps? I really don't want to remove theferrules and start over. Anysuggestions? Ray __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from blitzenrods@yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 22:55:06 2001 f9Q3t6L13850 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:55:06 - Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:55:13 PDT Subject: Re: Polishing out drips Rex, I withdraw the section at about 1.5" per 30 seconds(six clicks on a level wind reel) in a room that isheated to 85 degrees, give or take a few degrees. This is the temperature and rate of withdrawal thatworks best for me. Anyway, you probably already know this, but thebubbles will cause the drips. They flow down the rod,and if they go unnoticed, at the point that they popit releases a heavier flow of finish that is never able to reach the reservoir and leaves the drip. Ifyou have bubbles elsewhere in the finish(that didn'tpop) I would think that the drips were caused by thosethat did pop. I take care of the bubbles and anyother problems while withdrawing the rod. That's whyI prefer the dip tube over the drain tube method, Iwant to see what's going on and be able to correct anyproblems before they dry. If you plan to dip another coat over the section thathas the drips, I would go after them with somethingmore aggesive then polish. Do an initial rub down overthe area to begin the flattening process, give itanother day or two to dry, since you've now exposed agreener finish, then finish flattening it to level. Wipe water over the area to see where you're at on theflattening process. I would use gray 3M wool or 0000steel wool followed with an acetone wipe down to getrid of the oil. Chris --- Rex Tutor wrote: Im pretty sure I don't have a temp problem. I pulled the tube into a very warm room in the house which is a glass room/ sunroom. I bet it is 80 in there today. I did a tip real fast without trouble. Fast is 30 seconds instead of a minute per 5 inches (diameter is 2 inches). No drips but it is still wet and I can't tell how good it is yet. I did cover everything and it is nice and thin. I am off to try a mid. It is a pretty rod I am restoring , a Phillipson . The butt has bubbles from yesterday and I will have least 15 maybe 30 minutes after filling the tube many bubbles there are in the tube. It looks like Lawrence Welk in there.Sign up for a free About Emailaccount at http://About.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Oct 25 23:14:11 2001 f9Q4EBL14468 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:14:11 - ([209.178.134.200] helo=g2t8c9) id 15wyNu-0006AL-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:14:18 -0700 Subject: Re: Polishing out drips Actually a clear plastic tube allows a 360* view with the drain method. Iactually let the rod sit in the varnish until I can see zero bubbles. Ifthere is a persistent bubble I simple pull the rod out "pop" the bubble andreinsert the rod. Check to make sure no bubbles are present and drain away.I then put a cloth over the top and a remove the drain and put a sock overthe bottom. It will dry with NO dust and no runs. A clear tube make it easy. Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Polishing out drips That's whyI prefer the dip tube over the drain tube method, Chris from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Oct 25 23:38:52 2001 f9Q4cpL15059 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:38:51 - helo=scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net) id 15wuwH-0006au-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:33:33 -0700 ([209.178.135.198] helo=g2t8c9) id 15wuwE-0002TL-00; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:33:30 -0700 Subject: Re: winston, PHY rod tapers Mark, I know for a fact Cattanach's 7" 4wt cast great. Many others will attest =to this. Check it out. Adam I met a new friend that is going to mentor me on my first rod and i'm =deciding on a taper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i believe the midge) built in =which i casted. It was a nice soft rod but was kind of on the short =side. I checked out some tapers on the "rodmakers data base archive" and =found a winston that i might be interested in building - 7' 4wt. My =questions - can someone please give there opinions on both of these =rods. ie. their weight, action and anything else they want to share.... =does the winston have to be hollow fluted? my mentor called the PHY a =3wt. i casted the rod with a 4wt and it casted fine on the lawn, never =fished it. they always cast good on the lawn. I'm looking to build a rod =that will fish well with a 4wt, what are opinions of the proper line for = Mark, I know for a fact Cattanach's 7" 4wt = Many others will attest to this. Check it out. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Mark = Pohl Sent: Thursday, October 25, = PMSubject: winston, PHY rod =tapers I met a new friend that is going to = base archive" and found a winston that i might be interested in = fine on the lawn, never fished it. they always cast good on the = looking to build a rod that will fish well with a 4wt, what are = = from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Oct 25 23:38:53 2001 f9Q4cqL15063 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:38:53 - helo=scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net) id 15wuuc-0005z1-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:31:50 -0700 ([209.178.135.198] helo=g2t8c9) id 15wuuP-0000g6-00; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:31:38 -0700 Subject: Re: Sawing strips I think JW has a jig for sawing strips. That is what I have heard =anyway. www.jwflyrods.com Adam Vigil Subject: Sawing strips I think JW has a jig for sawing strips. = Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 25, = PMSubject: Sawing stripsAny one = or jigs for sawing strips? from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 00:16:17 2001 f9Q5GGL16336 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:16:17 -0500 Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:16:19 -0700 Fri, 26 Oct 2001 05:16:19 GMT Subject: Re: Sawing strips FILETIME=[583B6E50:01C15DDD] I have a tip for your situation. Save yourself a lot of grief and split your chipped nodes no matter how sharp your plane blade is. Been there, done Jim Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Oct 26 00:20:57 2001 f9Q5KuL16623 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:20:56 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:20:57 -0400 Subject: Re:winston, PHY rod tapers Wayne's 7' 4wt is one of the best tapers I have ever cast.:))Roll casts like a dream too.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Wayne's 7' 4wt is one of the best = ever cast.:))Roll casts like a dream =too.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Oct 26 00:54:30 2001 f9Q5sUL17532 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:54:30 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:54:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Sawing strips While I agree that splitting strips is very easy once youknow how its done.:))Sawing has been discussed alot on the list (since I have been around) =andmost say it's a headache and it can't be done or it's not worth it.Now if bamboo can be milled, why can't you saw it?Then one day I picked up a old book that had a picture in it of a maker =sawing strips.It suddenly became clear to me that it is not sawing that was the reason I'll tell you this Bamboo can be sawed very accurately, But it's not =with a band saw.I've been lucky enough to go see alot of the old makers tools first =hand.You would be amazed at how much you can learn just from looking at their =tools. Books cannot even begin to make things this clear.One thing I've learned for sure is that us modern makers take the most =technical route for sure.(whether we need to or not) Kinda like the guy =who goes out and buys a14V rechargeable $250 DEWALT drill with all the attachments becausehis old ladies pot handle just came loose LOL with the best of them too. I love my tools I must confess.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html easy once youknow how its done.:))Sawing has been discussed alot on the = most say it's a headache and it can't = it's not worth it.Now if bamboo can be milled, why can't= it? = had a picture in it of a maker sawing strips.It suddenly became clear to me that it= sawing that was the reason method.:))I'll tell you this Bamboo can be sawed = accurately, But it's not with a band saw.I've been lucky enough to go see alot = makers tools first hand.You would be amazed at how much youcan = from looking at their tools. Books cannot even begin to make things this = clear.One thing I've learned for sure is that = we = 14V rechargeable $250 DEWALT drillwith = attachments becausehis old ladies pot handle just came = LOLBut don't get me wrong here guys I can= Allen grunt along with the best of them too. I love my = confess.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from ajthramer@hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 01:50:36 2001 f9Q6oYL18556 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:50:34 -0500 Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:50:37 -0700 Fri, 26 Oct 2001 06:50:36 GMT Subject: Re: winston, PHY rod tapers FILETIME=[8493BE50:01C15DEA] A 7ft Granger, med fast, plenty of reserve, east to buildA.J. From: "Mark & Kathy Pohl" Subject: winston, PHY rod tapersDate: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:39:26 -0400 I met a new friend that is going to mentor me on my first rod and i'm deciding on a taper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i believe the midge) built in which i casted. It was a nice soft rod but was kind of on the short side. I checked out some tapers on the "rodmakers data base archive" and found a winston that i might be interested in building - 7' 4wt. My questions - can someone please give there opinions on both of these rods. ie. their weight, action and anything else they want to share.... does the winston have to be hollow fluted? my mentor called the PHY a 3wt. i casted the rod with a 4wt and it casted fine on the lawn, never fished it. they always cast good on the lawn. I'm looking to build a rod that will fish well with a 4wt, what are opinions of the proper line for this rod. Thanks, Mark _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from pohl@earthlink.net Fri Oct 26 04:33:31 2001 f9Q9XUL20303 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:33:30 -0500 CAA26156; Subject: Re: winston, PHY rod tapers Hi Shawn, I did forget to mention my fishing style..... This rod would be intended =to fish small drys 20 to 30 feet on light tippets in flat to semiflat =water with a 4wt DT. I need the rod to load up kind of quick because =of these short casts and have a soft tip to protect the tippet. I casted =a midge (i'm use to mylight IM6 winston which is real light) and found =it to be a little on the short side (may be a problem if i wade deep) =and i wouldn't want my rod any heavier. If I chose a longer rod it would =probaly be heavier.Before I casted the midge i thought i would want an =8' 4wt but this guy had an 8' 5wt that felt like a tank to me. I've = Subject: Re: winston, PHY rod tapers to answer your question, I would first ask you the same =questions I ask my customers and inquisitive friends (I think most here = "What type of fish do you intend to use this rod for? Is it open big =water or small eastern brooks you fish?? Are you looking for = I'm not saying this to sound holier than thou type thing, it = = I met a new friend that is going to mentor me on my first rod and =i'm deciding on a taper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i believe the midge) built =in which i casted. It was a nice soft rod but was kind of on the short =side. I checked out some tapers on the "rodmakers data base archive" and =found a winston that i might be interested in building - 7' 4wt. My =questions - can someone please give there opinions on both of these =rods. ie. their weight, action and anything else they want to share.... =does the winston have to be hollow fluted? my mentor called the PHY a =3wt. i casted the rod with a 4wt and it casted fine on the lawn, never =fished it. they always cast good on the lawn. I'm looking to build a rod =that will fish well with a 4wt, what are opinions of the proper line for =this rod. Thanks, Mark Hi Shawn, I did forget to mention my fishing = is real light) and found it to be a little on the short side (may be a = thought i would want an 8' 4wt but this guy had an 8' 5wt that felt like = ----- Original Message ----- Shawn Pineo Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Thursday, October 25, = PM tapers answer = question, I would first ask you the same questions I ask my customers = inquisitive friends (I think most here would agree?), "What type = do you intend to use this rod for? Is it open big water or small = brooks you fish?? Are you looking for presentation or distance?? Fast = holier than thou type thing, it just helps if we know what type of rod = = I met a new friend that is going = on my first rod and i'm deciding on a taper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i = the midge) built in which i casted. It was a nice soft rod but was = on the short side. I checked out some tapers on the "rodmakers data = archive" and found a winston that i might be interested in building = 4wt. My questions - can someone please give there opinions on both = rods. ie. their weight, action and anything else they want to = the winston have to be hollow fluted? my mentor called the PHY a = casted the rod with a 4wt and it casted fine on the lawn, never = they always cast good on the lawn. I'm looking to build a rod that = well with a 4wt, what are opinions of the proper line for this rod. = Mark from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Fri Oct 26 04:34:36 2001 f9Q9YZL20460 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:34:35 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Arthur Taylor fishing prints Has anyone seen the quality of these prints?? This is the guy that paintedthepicture on the Dickerson Book. I love his work and have found a place to buythem,but as I have become very cautious about buying things from the U.S. (nooffenseintended, just got burned TOO many times), I was wondering if anyone hadseen theirquality??ShawnP.S before anyone jumps on me, and I know someone will, the reason I am socautiousis mainly because of the cost involved.Let's say for example I buy something from the U.S. that is $30 American,I go geta Money order and it ends up costing me $58 Canadian, I get the product andI'm nothappy with it (or I don't get it at all) I spend at least double what it cost tomailit from the states to send it back (or $20 worth of long distance callsfighting overit) and when I get my money back, $30 US I get it cashed and WOW I get awhopping $46Canadian. You can see how this adds up. Rant mode off, I apologize if thisoffendsanyone, just one of the sad realities of being in Canada and being a Bambooguy;^) from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Oct 26 06:26:23 2001 f9QBQNL21601 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 06:26:23 -0500 f9QBQNS01251 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 06:26:24 -0500 Subject: Two Tips With this talk about drain tubes and bubbles, Ithought I would put my .02 worth in.To get the bubbles out from my tube I just run ahair dryer at medium heat up and down the tube.The bubbles rapidly move to the surface and burst.If I get a guide that seems to take too long forthe film to break, I use the hair dryer again.Just warm the area of the tube where the guide isand it will pop.Tip TwoTo keep my strips from absorbing moisture when Ican't plane and glue in one session.I tightly wrap the strips in Plastic Cling Wraptill I can get back to them.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from channer@frontier.net Fri Oct 26 06:35:16 2001 f9QBZFL21921 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 06:35:16 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 05:40:17 -0600 Subject: Re: PHY para 13 Brad;I live in Durango and fish the San Juan more than I should admit to andI usually use the Perfectionist I built.John from edriddle@mindspring.com Fri Oct 26 06:58:03 2001 f9QBw3L22498 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 06:58:03 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:58:07 -0400 Subject: Taylor prints FYI:This is one source for Tayor prints. Haven't purchased any so can't =comment. No financial interest.Ed http://tlzietakrodco.freeyellow.com/taylorprints.htm FYI:This is one source for Tayor prints. = interest.Ed http://tlzi=etakrodco.freeyellow.com/taylorprints.htm from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Oct 26 08:45:38 2001 f9QDjaL24240 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:45:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Sawing strips The point people make about sawing vs splitting is provided you use a splitting technique that is fast, painless and efficient as the Nunly/McKean method is it's pointless bothering messing with sawing. If you doubt it grab a culm and try it. You'll have the whole job done in 15 mins and looking for more. I have a whole workshop of machines and tools and I'm not afraid to use em, I also make jigs and tools for specific jobs and the above method beats the lot.It's exactly like I wrote one before, you COULD unicycle from Brisbane to Rockhampton with a sack of concrete on your back if you want but the train is easier. I unicycled for $1 per km for a childrens hospital, I don't normaly travel that way. Tony At 01:55 AM 10/26/01 -0400, Tony Miller wrote: While I agree that splitting strips is very easy once youknow how its done.:))Sawing has been discussed alot on the list (since I have been around) andmost say it's a headache and it can't be done or it's not worth it.Now if bamboo can be milled, why can't you saw it?Then one day I picked up a old book that had a picture in it of a maker sawing strips.It suddenly became clear to me that it is not sawing that was the reason I'll tell you this Bamboo can be sawed very accurately, But it's not with a band saw.I've been lucky enough to go see alot of the old makers tools first hand.You would be amazed at how much you can learn just from looking at their tools. Books cannot even begin to make things this clear.One thing I've learned for sure is that us modern makers take the most technical route for sure.(whether we need to or not) Kinda like the guy who goes out and buys a14V rechargeable $250 DEWALT drill with all the attachments becausehis old ladies pot handle just came loose LOLBut don't get me wrong here guys I can give the Tim Allen grunt alongwith the best of them too. I love my tools I must confess.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Oct 26 08:46:28 2001 f9QDkPL24268 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:46:26 -0500 Subject: Re: winston, PHY rod tapers The Midge is a great little rod, can't comment on the para 13. If you want a 7' rod for any reason the Driggs, Sir D or WC 7' #4 or what ever you like to call it and the Payen 98 are excellent. Tony At 05:33 PM 10/25/01 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote: Mark, I know for a fact Cattanach's 7" 4wt cast great. Many others will attest to this. Check it out. Adam ----- Original Message -----From: Mark & Kathy Pohl Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:39 PMSubject: winston, PHY rod tapers I met a new friend that is going to mentor me on my first rod and i'm deciding on a taper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i believe the midge) built in which i casted. It was a nice soft rod but was kind of on the short side. I checked out some tapers on the "rodmakers data base archive" andfound a winston that i might be interested in building - 7' 4wt. My questions - can someone please give there opinions on both of these rods. ie. their weight, action and anything else they want to share.... does the winston have to be hollow fluted? my mentor called the PHY a 3wt. i casted the rod with a 4wt and it casted fine on the lawn, never fished it. they always cast good on the lawn. I'm looking to build a rod that will fish well with a 4wt, what are opinions of the proper line for this rod. Thanks, Mark /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Oct 26 10:37:10 2001 f9QFb9a27218 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:37:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Arthur Taylor fishing prints Mate, you aught to try it from here. A SINGLE CULM is costing over $200 EACH and then only after dealing with every government functionary under the sun. Add to that the F&M and now anthrax problems and it's nothing short of a bloody nightmare. Tony At 06:37 AM 10/26/01 -0400, Shawn Pineo wrote: Has anyone seen the quality of these prints?? This is the guy that painted thepicture on the Dickerson Book. I love his work and have found a place to buy them,but as I have become very cautious about buying things from the U.S. (no offenseintended, just got burned TOO many times), I was wondering if anyone had seen theirquality??ShawnP.S before anyone jumps on me, and I know someone will, the reason I am so cautiousis mainly because of the cost involved.Let's say for example I buy something from the U.S. that is $30 American, I go geta Money order and it ends up costing me $58 Canadian, I get the product and I'm nothappy with it (or I don't get it at all) I spend at least double what it cost to mailit from the states to send it back (or $20 worth of long distance calls fighting overit) and when I get my money back, $30 US I get it cashed and WOW I get a whopping $46Canadian. You can see how this adds up. Rant mode off, I apologize if this offendsanyone, just one of the sad realities of being in Canada and being a Bamboo guy;^) /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 10:57:21 2001 f9QFvKa29661 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:57:20 -0500 26 Oct 2001 07:57:25 PDT Subject: Re: Sawing strips Tony, maybe you can share some of what you picked upwhile looking at the old makers tools. I too wonder ifthings couldn't be a little simpler and maybe we'rereengineering the wheel because we don't have accessto the experience of the old makers (trade secrets andall that). Just curious if there is anything uniqueyou gleaned while looking at the old tools? Bill Walters --- Tony Miller wrote: While I agree that splitting strips is very easyonce youknow how its done.:))Sawing has been discussed alot on the list (since Ihave been around) andmost say it's a headache and it can't be done orit's not worth it.Now if bamboo can be milled, why can't you saw it?Then one day I picked up a old book that had apicture in it of a maker sawing strips.It suddenly became clear to me that it is not sawingthat was the reason I'll tell you this Bamboo can be sawed veryaccurately, But it's not with a band saw.I've been lucky enough to go see alot of the oldmakers tools first hand.You would be amazed at how much you can learn just from looking at their tools. Books cannot even beginto make things this clear.One thing I've learned for sure is that us modernmakers take the most technical route forsure.(whether we need to or not) Kinda like the guywho goes out and buys a14V rechargeable $250 DEWALT drill with all theattachments becausehis old ladies pot handle just came loose LOLBut don't get me wrong here guys I can give the TimAllen grunt along with the best of them too. I love my tools I mustconfess.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from blitzenrods@yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 10:57:38 2001 f9QFvba29723 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:57:37 -0500 Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:57:41 PDT Subject: Re: Polishing out drips That sounds like a plan for someone with limited spaceor dust circulating problems. Chris --- Adam Vigil wrote: Actually a clear plastic tube allows a 360* viewwith the drain method. Iactually let the rod sit in the varnish until I cansee zero bubbles. Ifthere is a persistent bubble I simple pull the rodout "pop" the bubble andreinsert the rod. Check to make sure no bubbles arepresent and drain away.I then put a cloth over the top and a remove thedrain and put a sock overthe bottom. It will dry with NO dust and no runs. Aclear tube make it easy. Adam Vigil----- Original Message -----From: Chris McDowell Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 8:55 PMSubject: Re: Polishing out drips That's whyI prefer the dip tube over the drain tube method, Chris __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Oct 26 11:00:10 2001 f9QG0Aa00192 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:00:10 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 12:00:13 -0400 Subject: Re:Sawing Strips Busy day today. Sorry it took me so long to reply. thin round saw blade like the ones the use in a horizontal milling =machine. (note: I said Horizontal milling machine)It's more like a cutter and not so much like a saw.They use a motor to drive the cutter via pulleys and belt.and the bamboo is supported underneath by a rubber wheel that has an =adjustable height. The picture is in motion and it looks effortless.And it is sawing incredibly straight lines in the culm.As far as the other tools I have seen. I have seen a node press that was =very simplistic. It used a long lever arm and a steel base plate.The length of the arm gave it much more leverage so the processwas much less labor intensive than a small vise.( Have any of you =cramped your hand on one of those small vises, I know I have)The leverage allows much less pressure to be applied on the human end to =achieve the same results.Also the binder that I made(which can be seen on Todd's tip site)Was partly conceived by an old binder that I saw at a museum.They used a wood base and a single pulley with a handle.The pulley was adjustable on a wooden board. The pulley was also =straight in line with the two I- hooks that supported the rod.This gave me the idea that binders did not need to made out of metal.At least not the base. That saved money in the making of my binder.I made my binder for around $20.00. And it works great.Go to Todd's tip site and take a look at it. My binder is a Garrison =style and not the style of the one in the museum.(I only used certain = could make a binder for under $10. The funny thing was, that the cheap =binder in the museum is what was used by a famous Maker. I can't =remember who at the moment.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Hi Guys Busy day today. Sorry it took me so = reply.The way they saw the bamboo in the = was with a thin round saw blade like the ones the = machine)It's more like a cutter and not so much= saw.They use a motor to drive the cutter = and belt.and the bamboo is supportedunderneath = wheel that has an adjustable height. The picture is in motion and it = effortless.And it is sawing incredibly straight = culm. seen a node press that was very simplistic. It used a long lever arm and = base plate.The length of the arm gave it muchmore = the processwas much less labor intensive than a = have)The leverage allows much less pressure= applied on the human end to achieve the same results. = on Todd's tip site)Was partly conceived by an old binder = a museum.They used a wood base and a single = handle. The pulley was also straight in line with the two I- hooks that = rod.This gave me the idea that binders = making of my binder.I made my binder for around $20.00.And = great. binder for under $10. The funny thing was, that the cheap binder in the = moment.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 26 11:05:44 2001 f9QG5ha01011 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:05:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Sawing strips I think that making rod building look difficult adds some extra interestto what is a pretty repetitive craft that does not take much to make afishabe pole.Terry Tony Miller wrote: While I agree that splitting strips is very easy once youknow howits done.:))Sawing has been discussed alot on the list (since I havebeen around) andmost say it's a headache and it can't be done or it'snot worth it.Now if bamboo can be milled, why can't you saw it? Thenone day I picked up a old book that had a picture in it of a makersawing strips.It suddenly became clear to me that it is not sawingthat was the reasonfor most of the failures, but the method.:))I'lltell you this Bamboo can be sawed very accurately, But it's not with aband saw.I've been lucky enough to go see alot of the old makers toolsfirst hand.You would be amazed at how much you can learn just fromlooking at their tools. Books cannot even begin to make things thisclear.One thing I've learned for sure is that us modern makers takethe most technical route for sure.(whether we need to or not) Kindalike the guy who goes out and buys a14V rechargeable $250 DEWALT drillwith all the attachments becausehis old ladies pot handle just cameloose LOLBut don't get me wrong here guys I can give the Tim Allengrunt alongwith the best of them too. I love my tools I mustconfess.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Oct 26 11:14:42 2001 f9QGEfa01571 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:14:41 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 12:14:45 -0400 Subject: Re:Sawing strips I would have to agree with Tony Young though.Splitting to me is much easier.But I think that some are intent on sawing as with milling bamboo and I =just thought this is the way it can be achieved:))Claude, yes I think band sawing would be much more time consuming.To fine of a cut and less control compared to what I have seen.:))I think tooth size, ,jig, and speed of cutter all play major factors.As Maker we get set in our ways of thinking and assume that allprocedures are alike. I could give many more examples but I don't want to waste to much space =and of course there is that controversy thing LOLMy saying is (practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent.)practice it wrong and you will keep doing it wrong. no matter what =anyone tells you. LOL I'm just as guilty LOL :))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html I would have to agree with Tony though.Splitting to me is much =easier.But I think that some are intent on = achieved:))Claude, yes I think band sawing would = time consuming.To fine of a cut and less = all play major factors.As Maker we get set in our ways of = assume that allprocedures are alike.I could give many more examples but I = LOLMy saying is (practice does not make = makes permanent.)practice it wrong and you will keep = :))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from teekay35@interlynx.net Fri Oct 26 11:23:20 2001 f9QGNJa02310 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:23:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Sawing strips I use a binder made from wood, a 6" furnace pulley, bits and pieces, bolts,etc.. Made this about 25 years ago from the plan in A. J. McClane's FishingEncyclopedia. Only cost was the pulley which i bought at the hardwarestore. Each time I see one of the beautiful binders that others have made,I swear that I'll make one too. But then I have the latest set of strips toglue, and I use the old one again. from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Oct 26 11:23:51 2001 f9QGNoa02406 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:23:50 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 12:23:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Making it look difficult Yeah, I would agree Rodmaking is not as complicated as some would make =it.:))And I love to make the customer think that all my work took a master's =degree to make it:)) even though this high school educated machinist =did the work LOLThat brings up a good point that there are defiantly secrets in the rod = But I think that here(the list) is the place to put it in perspective = I even thought of a program to help get younger high school kids get =involved in to the craft. Much like they do with fly fishing in general.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Yeah, I would agree Rodmaking is not as= as some would make it.:))And I love to make the customer think= high school educated machinist did the work LOLThat brings up a good point that there= defiantly secrets in the rod making business. learn. younger high school kids get involved in to the craft. Much like they do = fly fishing in general.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from Vtbamboo@cs.com Fri Oct 26 12:37:44 2001 f9QHbha05919 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 12:37:43 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:37:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez All this info was great, but I am looking for any tips, jigs or pictures to help me saw strips, not reasons why I shouldn't. Obviously it can ( And still is) be done judging by the 10 Bazzillion (Not an exact figure) rods produced by sawing. Yes, I know some of the worst rods were built that way, but so were some of the best. Vinnie info was great, but I am looking for any tips, jigs or pictures to help me sawstrips, not reasons why I shouldn't. Obviously it can ( And still is) be donejudging by the 10 Bazzillion (Not an exact figure) rods produced by sawing.Yes, I know some of the worst rods were built that way, but so were some ofthe best. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Oct 26 13:03:30 2001 f9QI3Ta06993 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:03:29 -0500 Subject: Rattan grips There has been some stuff on the list lately about rattan grips and how to make them and where to get the stuff to do it. I had the pleasure awhile back of seeing Tony Miller's rattan grips that he was doing and I must say they were incredible. If you ever want to see a nice rattan grip check out his site at www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html . He is also making some really nice reelseats as well. I have a good supply right now but I plan on adding a couple of his seats to this anyway. We are lucky to have guys such as him and others on this list we can counton to get nice components for our rods. I try to support as many of the guys here who are making parts as I can, and I know the rest of us do as well. Guys like Tony Miller, Dave Leclair, Bob Venneri, Tony Young and the rest who are too numerous to name have some incredible products we can all use. If it was not for all on the list there would not be the information and ideas that we have all benefited from. Bret There has been somestuff on the list lately about rattan grips and how to make them and where Miller's rattan grips that he was doing and I must say they were incredible. plan on adding a couple of his seats to this anyway. We are lucky to have guys such as him and others on this list we cancount on to get nice components for our rods. I try to support as many ofthe guys here who are making parts as I can, and I know the rest of us do as the rest who are too numerous to name have some incredible products we Bret from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Fri Oct 26 13:18:00 2001 f9QIHxa07749 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:17:59 -0500 Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:18:04 +0200 Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez To be quite honest, Vinnie: As I see it, Your next move is doing the =thing.Experience is gained by doing. Tony and others have provided lots ofinfo. Now I am gonna give You the best piece of advice, You=B4ll ever =havewhen talking cane: GO MAKE A ROD. Do it the way You think it ought to be =done.No matter how it turns out, You will end up wiser than before. Hell, You =might evenend up with a fishable rod:-)) regards, carsten Jorgensen Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez All this info was great, but I am looking for any tips, jigs or =pictures to help me saw strips, not reasons why I shouldn't. Obviously =it can ( And still is) be done judging by the 10 Bazzillion (Not an =exact figure) rods produced by sawing. Yes, I know some of the worst = To be quite honest, Vinnie: As I see = move is doing the thing.Experience is gained by doing. Tony and= provided lots ofinfo. Now I am gonna give You the best= advice, You=B4ll ever havewhen talking cane: GO MAKE A ROD. Doit = think it ought to be done.No matter how it turns out, You will = than before. Hell, You might evenend up with a fishable =rod:-)) regards, carsten Jorgensen ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 = PMSubject: Re: Sawing =Strips/Geez info was great, but I am looking for any tips, jigs or pictures to = strips, not reasons why I shouldn't. Obviously it can ( And still is) = judging by the 10 Bazzillion (Not an exact figure) rods produced by = Yes, I know some of the worst rods were built that way, but so were = = = from Vtbamboo@cs.com Fri Oct 26 13:19:56 2001 f9QIJta08000 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:19:55 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:19:51 -0400 Subject: Sawing strips/geez Thanks, now there were some helpfull answers. Thanks again,Vinnie from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 13:40:58 2001 f9QIeva09351 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:40:57 -0500 Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:40:50 -0700 Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:40:50 GMT Subject: Re: Sawing strips FILETIME=[BC2DB790:01C15E4D] Tony: saw it? The answer is this, bamboo can be milled and then sawed. What youcan't do is saw the bamboo and then hand plane the bamboo and expect to to saw the bamboo straight. If in fact, you were to saw the bamboo perfectlystraight, the nodes would be perfectly crooked and when you got around tothe planing process you'd have nothing but trouble with chipped nodes. That'swhy hand planers do in fact split their strips instead of sawing them. I wasone to learn this lesson the hard way, I sawed my strips for the first dozenrods that I built and had nothing but trouble with chipped nodes. Every time I many occasions. !Nearly all hand planers split their strips and for good reason, it's not thatyou need a new jig or gadget so as you can saw strips as staight as an arrowas this simply won't help out at all when it comes to planing and the crooked a way that you'd be following the pattern created from the original splittingprocess, when you split the culm into 3rd's of 4th's such as John Long does.I've got a dozen culms of sawed bamboo in my shop at this time and they'll besitting there forever, or untill I start building nodeless. I've always beenopened minded as to new techniques in rodmaking and I have the RubeGoldberg jigs sitting in my shop to prove it. I figure if one in five of myinventions works out it's well worth it, however, for sawed strips, I shouldhave listened to the old dogs and split my strips, I'd have saved myself a l!ot of time and been around) and worth it. of a maker sawing strips. was the reason it's not with a band saw. tools first hand. looking at their tools. Books cannot even begin to make things this clear. take the most technical route for sure.(whether we need to or not) Kinda likethe guy who goes out and buys a attachments because grunt along Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Oct 26 13:49:10 2001 f9QIn9a10053 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:49:09 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:49:12 -0400 Subject: Sawing picture Anyone who doesn't believe strips can be sawed accurately. the shop of Garrison.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Anyone who doesn't believe strips can = accurately.Please let me know and I'll send you a = the shop of Garrison.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Fri Oct 26 15:15:12 2001 f9QKFBa14375 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:15:11 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:11:32 -0300 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: winston, PHY rod tapers --------------12ADA32AF2B25139E463A6CC Mark,here are my picks,1.Heddon Bill Stanley Favorite 7'0"- 3/4wt, lined with a 4 wt line it shouldloadgood in close.2.Payne 97- 7'0 4 wt sweet little rod.3.Leonard Model 38 ACM- 7'0 4 wt another sweet little rod.4.Granger Victory- 7'0" 4 wt.6.Dickerson 7012- 7'0" 4 wt if you catch mostly smaller fish like brookiesandsuch.5. The JJ lives rod in the archives- 7'0" 4 wt. I haven't had a chance to buildityet but I have heard good stories about it, perhaps someone else could tellyou moreabout it.6. Plus any of these rods others have recommended, There is also a raft ofsweetrods designed by our own list members that would fit the bill. These are justa fewthat jump to mind. Enjoy,P.S. I would recommend a flamed rod as well. Don't under estimate a 6'3"or 6'6"rod though. Let us know what you decide on, Shawn Mark & Kathy Pohl wrote: Hi Shawn, I did forget to mention my fishing style..... This rod would beintendedto fish small drys 20 to 30 feet on light tippets in flat to semiflat waterwith a4wt DT. I need the rod to load up kind of quick because of these shortcasts andhave a soft tip to protect the tippet. I casted a midge (i'm use to mylightIM6winston which is real light) and found it to be a little on the short side (maybea problem if i wade deep) and i wouldn't want my rod any heavier. If I chosealonger rod it would probaly be heavier.Before I casted the midge i thought iwouldwant an 8' 4wt but this guy had an 8' 5wt that felt like a tank to me. I'vehearda lot of good things about the midge.... -Thanks Mark ----- Original Message -----From: Shawn Pineo Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:10 PMSubject: Re: winston, PHY rod tapersMark,to answer your question, I would first ask you the samequestions I ask my customers and inquisitive friends (I think most herewould agree?),"What type of fish do you intend to use this rod for? Is it open bigwater or small eastern brooks you fish?? Are you looking for presentationor distance?? Fast or slow action?"I'm not saying this to sound holier than thou type thing, it justhelps if we know what type of rod you are looking for. Shawn Mark & Kathy Pohl wrote: I met a new friend that is going to mentor me on my first rod and i'mdeciding on a taper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i believe the midge) built inwhich i casted. It was a nice soft rod but was kind of on the shortside. I checked out some tapers on the "rodmakers data base archive"and found a winston that i might be interested in building - 7' 4wt. Myquestions - can someone please give there opinions on both of theserods. ie. their weight, action and anything else they want to share....does the winston have to be hollow fluted? my mentor called the PHY a3wt. i casted the rod with a 4wt and it casted fine on the lawn, neverfished it. they always cast good on the lawn. I'm looking to build arod that will fish well with a 4wt, what are opinions of the properline for this rod. Thanks, Mark --------------12ADA32AF2B25139E463A6CC Mark, picks, a 4 wt line it should load good in close. like brookies and such. a chance to build it yet but I have heard good stories about it, perhapssomeone else could tell you more about it. also a raft of sweet rods designed by our own list members that would fitthe bill. These are just a few that jump to mind. Enjoy, Don't under estimate a 6'3" or 6'6" rod though. Let us know what you decideon, ShawnMark & Kathy Pohl wrote: did forget to mention my fishing style..... This rod would be intendedto fish small drys 20 to 30 feet on light tippets in flat to semiflat water of these short casts and have a soft tip to protect the tippet. I casteda midge (i'm use to mylight IM6 winston which is real light) and foundit to be a little on the short side (may be a problem if i wade deep) andi wouldn't want my rod any heavier. If I chose a longer rod it would probalybe heavier.Before I casted the midge i thought i would want an 8' 4wt but lot of good things about the midge.... -Thanks Mark ----- Original Message ----- From:ShawnPineo Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, October 25, 200111:10PM Subject: Re: winston, PHY rodtapers yourquestion, I would first ask you the same questions I ask my customers andinquisitive friends (I think most here would agree?),"What type of fish do you intend to use this rod for? Is it open bigwater or small eastern brooks you fish?? Are you looking for presentationor distance?? Fast or slow action?" holierthan thou type thing, it just helps if we know what type of rod you arelooking for. ShawnMark & Kathy Pohl wrote: Imet a new friend that is going to mentor me on my first rod and i'm decidingon a taper. He had a PHY 6 ' 3" (i believe the midge) built in which icasted. It was a nice soft rod but was kind of on the short side. I checkedout some tapers on the "rodmakers data base archive" and found a winstonthat i might be interested in building - 7' 4wt. My questions - can someoneplease give there opinions on both of these rods. ie. their weight, actionand anything else they want to share.... does the winston have to be hollowfluted? my mentor called the PHY a 3wt. i casted the rod with a 4wt andit casted fine on the lawn, never fished it. they always cast good on thelawn. I'm looking to build a rod that will fish well with a 4wt, what areopinions of the proper line for this rod. Thanks,Mark --------------12ADA32AF2B25139E463A6CC-- from bamboo@pa.net Fri Oct 26 16:02:08 2001 f9QL26a16119 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:02:07 -0500 Subject: Re:Sawing Strips Tony,I have seen the same picture its on page185 of The American Sportsmans =Treasury. The interesting thing about the photo is that the bambbo must =just be incised through the enamel and part of the powerfibers because =the culm is not falling apart. I don't have a scanner and I treasure =this book above my Garrison and Carmichael so unfortunately, or =fortunately for those who don't wish to endure download times I can't =send it.Regards,Bill Taylor Subject: Re:Sawing Strips Busy day today. Sorry it took me so long to reply. thin round saw blade like the ones the use in a horizontal milling =machine. (note: I said Horizontal milling machine)It's more like a cutter and not so much like a saw.They use a motor to drive the cutter via pulleys and belt.and the bamboo is supported underneath by a rubber wheel that has an =adjustable height. The picture is in motion and it looks effortless.And it is sawing incredibly straight lines in the culm.As far as the other tools I have seen. I have seen a node press that =was very simplistic. It used a long lever arm and a steel base plate.The length of the arm gave it much more leverage so the processwas much less labor intensive than a small vise.( Have any of you =cramped your hand on one of those small vises, I know I have)The leverage allows much less pressure to be applied on the human end =to achieve the same results.Also the binder that I made(which can be seen on Todd's tip site)Was partly conceived by an old binder that I saw at a museum.They used a wood base and a single pulley with a handle.The pulley was adjustable on a wooden board. The pulley was also =straight in line with the two I- hooks that supported the rod.This gave me the idea that binders did not need to made out of metal.At least not the base. That saved money in the making of my binder.I made my binder for around $20.00. And it works great.Go to Todd's tip site and take a look at it. My binder is a Garrison =style and not the style of the one in the museum.(I only used certain = could make a binder for under $10. The funny thing was, that the cheap =binder in the museum is what was used by a famous Maker. I can't =remember who at the moment.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Tony,I have seen the same picture its on = and I treasure this book above my Garrison and Carmichael so = fortunately for those who don't wish to endure download times I can't = it.Regards,Bill Taylor ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 = PMSubject: Re:Sawing Strips Hi Guys Busy day today. Sorry it took me so = reply.The way they saw the bamboo in the = seen) was with a thin round saw blade like the ones = machine)It's more like a cutter and not so = saw.They use a motor to drive the cutter = and belt.and the bamboo is supported = rubber wheel that has an adjustable height. The picture is in motion = looks effortless.And it is sawing incredibly straight = culm. have seen a node press that was very simplistic. It used a long lever = a steel base plate.The length of the arm gave it much = so the processwas much less labor intensive than a = Have any of you cramped your hand on one of those small vises, I know = have)The leverage allows much less = applied on the human end to achieve the same results. seen on Todd's tip site)Was partly conceived by an old binder = at a museum.They used a wood base and a single = handle. The pulley was also straight in line with the two I- hooks that = rod.This gave me the idea that binders = the making of my binder.I made my binder for around $20.00. = great. binder for under $10. The funny thing was, that the cheap binder in = moment.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 26 16:57:52 2001 f9QLvqa17990 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:57:52 -0500 ;Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:57:52 +0000 Subject: Re: Sawing strips Funny that you should say that because my binder is also made from woodandeven the pulleys and drive wheel are wooden and turned on my lathe. I alsosay someday I'll update this antique however I always use the beast and itdoes the job well. Jack from Vtbamboo@cs.com Fri Oct 26 17:21:40 2001 f9QMLda18999 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:21:39 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:21:35 -0400 Subject: Sawing strips/Geez 1. Thanks for the picture Tony. 2. I never mentioned anything about hand planing my strips, everyone just assumed i did. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. 3. I have built 6 rods, 5 from split strips 1 from sawn strips, hand planed (Though I didn't use the usual block plane) 4. The sawn rod came out great, in much less time. 5. I'm a hobbyist, I won't sell any rods, but I want to try/ build as many rods as possible for comparison. 6. I hate straightening nodes. 7. My initial attempt at sawing culms was awkward, I thought their must be a better way, & I was pretty sure some rodmakers on the List sawed &could help me. 8. Thanks again for the picture Tony. 9. Thanks, Vinnie 1. about hand planing my strips, everyone just assumed i did. Sometimes I do,sometimes I don't. strips 1 from sawn strips, hand planed (Though I didn't use the usual blockplane) much less time. rods, but I want to try/ build as many rods as possible for comparison. was awkward, I thought their must be a better way, & I was pretty suresome rodmakers on the List sawed & could help me. from goodaple@cox-internet.com Fri Oct 26 18:12:36 2001 f9QNCZa20321 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:12:35 -0500 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 licensedd72657b95c070b1853187e4f5a0d6a7) Subject: Rod order form spreadsheets? Quite awhile back somone gave a link to a spreadsheet for use when =taking an order for a rod from a customer. It allows a person to enter =wrap colors, reelseat, # of guides and sizes, stripper size, ferrule =size, tip top size, size of tube, etc. Does anyone have the link close =at hand? Thanks in advance, Randall G. NW AR. Quite awhile back somone gave a link to= spreadsheet for use when taking an order for a rod from a customer. It = person to enter wrap colors, reelseat, # of guides and sizes, stripper = ferrule size, tip top size, size of tube, etc. Does anyone have the link = at hand? Thanks in advance, Randall G. NWAR. from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Fri Oct 26 20:00:17 2001 f9R10Ga22012 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:00:16 -0500 by direct-pest.com [208.27.26.103] for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:00:15 -0400 Subject: Re: winston, PHY rod tapers I can only comment on the JJ Lives Rod. I built this rod a few months =back and fished it for the first time last Thursday (10/18/01) while =escorting an outdoor writer for one of our local newspapers to one of my =favorite fishing spots. I have nothing but great comments about the JJ =taper. It is a great fishing rod. Here is the link to the newspaper article written about the fishing =experience last week. 7 Joe 5. The JJ lives rod in the archives- 7'0" 4 wt. I haven't had a =chance to build it yet but I have heard good stories about it, perhaps = a few months back and fished it for the first time last Thursday = while escorting an outdoor writer for one of our local newspapers to one = Here is the link to the newspaper article written = fishing experience last week. Joe other....."What a Great Life". a chance to build it yet but I have heard good stories about it, = someone else could tell you more about it. from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Oct 26 20:45:10 2001 f9R1j9a22719 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:45:09 -0500 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:45:12 -0400 Subject: Cool ovens! If you guys haven't seen these yet, you need to check them out.They are really, really nice!Here is a link : www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.htmlThanks Bret for the kind words earlier.I was glad to help you out.Everyone, give Bret's NEW website a look and tell him what you think.With all the talk of heat treating on the list ,you might find these =very interesting.Tony Miller If you guys haven't seen these yet, you= check them out.They are really, really =nice! /bambooovens/home.html earlier. out.Everyone, give = and tell him what you think.With all the talk of heat treating on = Tony Miller from bob@downandacross.com Fri Oct 26 21:45:34 2001 f9R2jXa23688 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:45:33 -0500 Subject: RE: Cool ovens! Tony:That oven is just awesome. I am excited about getting one from Bret. As heknows, I have burnt a few strips in my pipe oven (they were for him, too!Oops).Like the updates to your page that you have done. As I said in MI, yourrattan grips are just great. I really like the reelseats too. Hope to sendsome guys here your way in the future.Best regards,Bobps. nice use of oxymoron in your subject line.-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:46 PM Subject: Cool ovens! If you guys haven't seen these yet, you need to check them out.They are really, really nice!Here is a link : www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.htmlThanks Bret for the kind words earlier.I was glad to help you out.Everyone, give Bret's NEW website a look and tell him what you think.With all the talk of heat treating on the list ,you might find these veryinteresting.Tony Miller Tony: oven is just awesome. I am excited about getting one from Bret. As he = the updates to your page that you have done. As I said in MI, your = are just great. I really like the reelseats too. Hope to send some guys = your way in the future. regards,Bob nice use of oxymoron in your subject line. MillerSent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:46 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Cool =ovens!If you guys haven't seen these yet, = check them out.They are really, really =nice! /bambooovens/home.html earlier. out.Everyone, give = look and tell him what you think.With all the talk of heat treating on = Tony Miller from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Oct 26 22:05:11 2001 f9R35Aa24243 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:05:10 -0500 ([209.178.135.105] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xJmY-0001Mf-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:05:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Polishing out drips Chris, You just described my situation.LOL Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Polishing out drips That sounds like a plan for someone with limited spaceor dust circulating problems. Chris from jczimny@dol.net Fri Oct 26 22:10:04 2001 f9R3A3a24523 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:10:03 -0500 Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Bill Harms Bill Harms. If you're out there, contact me as soon as you can.John Zimny from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Oct 26 22:12:06 2001 f9R3C5a24803 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:12:05 -0500 ([209.178.135.105] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xJtF-0006tB-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:12:05 -0700 Subject: Re: Sawing strips Mine is wood also and is mounted on the side of a bench. One thing I did ismake the string guide able to pivot so I would not run into it accidentally.A side effect is I can purposely angle the guide arm so the binding stringgoes precisely where I want it. Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Sawing strips I use a binder made from wood, a 6" furnace pulley, bits and pieces, bolts, etc.. Made this about 25 years ago from the plan in A. J. McClane's Fishing Encyclopedia. Only cost was the pulley which i bought at the hardwarestore. Each time I see one of the beautiful binders that others have made, I swear that I'll make one too. But then I have the latest set of strips to glue, and I use the old one again. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Oct 26 22:15:58 2001 f9R3Fva25092 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:15:57 -0500 ([209.178.135.105] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xJx1-0002FO-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:15:59 -0700 Subject: Re: Making it look difficult Shoot making a bamboo rod is complicated if you do not stray from =Garrison. But add a beveller here and wetting strips there and then =take a trip to Todd Talsma sight and all of a sudden it is not quite so =hard and becomes more pleasurable. Relativitally speaking in making fly rods in general the bamboo rod is =still king in difficulty by comparison. Adam Vigil Subject: Re: Making it look difficult Yeah, I would agree Rodmaking is not as complicated as some would make =it.:))And I love to make the customer think that all my work took a master's =degree to make it:)) even though this high school educated machinist =did the work LOLThat brings up a good point that there are defiantly secrets in the = But I think that here(the list) is the place to put it in perspective = I even thought of a program to help get younger high school kids get =involved in to the craft. Much like they do with fly fishing in general.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Shoot making a bamboo rod is = and then take a trip to Todd Talsma sight and all of a sudden it is not = hard and becomes more pleasurable. Relativitally speaking in making fly = general the bamboo rod is still king in difficulty by =comparison. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 = AM difficult Yeah, I would agree Rodmaking is not = complicated as some would make it.:))And I love to make the customer think= high school educated machinist did the work LOLThat brings up a good point that = defiantly secrets in the rod making business. But I think that here(the = learn. younger high school kids get involved in to the craft. Much like they = fly fishing in general.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Oct 26 22:17:23 2001 f9R3HMa25288 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:17:22 -0500 ([209.178.135.105] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xJyR-0003Q8-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:17:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez Vinnie, I believe Bill Waara sawed his strips. That says a lot. Did you check =out JW sight for a jig? Adam Vigil Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez All this info was great, but I am looking for any tips, jigs or =pictures to help me saw strips, not reasons why I shouldn't. Obviously =it can ( And still is) be done judging by the 10 Bazzillion (Not an =exact figure) rods produced by sawing. Yes, I know some of the worst = Vinnie, I believe Bill Waara sawed his strips. = lot. Did you check out JW sight for a jig? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 = AMSubject: Re: Sawing =Strips/Geez info was great, but I am looking for any tips, jigs or pictures to = strips, not reasons why I shouldn't. Obviously it can ( And still is) = judging by the 10 Bazzillion (Not an exact figure) rods produced by = Yes, I know some of the worst rods were built that way, but so were = = = from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Oct 26 22:19:34 2001 f9R3JXa25598 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:19:33 -0500 ([209.178.135.105] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xK0W-00053Z-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:19:37 -0700 Subject: Re: Rattan grips Its about time someone said it. Not to mention all the guys you talked =about have been more then willing to help and share. We cant say that =about everyone. Can we? Adam Vigil Subject: Rattan grips There has been some stuff on the list lately about rattan grips and =how to make them and where to get the stuff to do it. I had the =pleasure awhile back of seeing Tony Miller's rattan grips that he was =doing and I must say they were incredible. If you ever want to see a =nice rattan grip check out his site at =www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html . He is also making somereally =nice reelseats as well. I have a good supply right now but I plan on = We are lucky to have guys such as him and others on this list we can =count on to get nice components for our rods. I try to support as many =of the guys here who are making parts as I can, and I know the rest of =us do as well. Guys like Tony Miller, Dave Leclair, Bob Venneri, Tony =Young and the rest who are too numerous to name have some incredible =products we can all use. If it was not for all on the list there would = Its about time someone said it. Not to = the guys you talked about have been more then willing to help and share. = say that about everyone. Can we? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Grhghlndr@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 = AMSubject: Rattan gripsThere has= stuff on the list lately about rattan grips and how to make them and = Miller's rattan grips that he was doing and I must say they were = www.homestead.com/= good supply right now but I plan on adding a couple of his seats to = anyway. We are lucky to have guys such as him and others on = we can count on to get nice components for our rods. I try to support = of the guys here who are making parts as I can, and I know the rest of = and the rest who are too numerous to name have some incredible = from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Oct 26 22:26:16 2001 f9R3QFa25956 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:26:15 -0500 ([209.178.135.105] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xK71-000281-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:26:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Sawing strips Tony & Jim Thanks for the info on both ends very informative. But I have a =question. Jim Reams who does flawless work told me to "If you soak your =strips you will not chip nodes" Now I neither saw or soak so both are =unfamiliar to me. Maybe someone could tell us if you sawed a strip and =soaked it would node chipping still be an issue. No theoretical answer =only practical experience need reply. Adam Vigil Thanks for the info on both ends very = But I have a question. Jim Reams who does flawless work told me to "If = your strips you will not chip nodes" Now I neither saw or soak so both = unfamiliar to me. Maybe someone could tell us if you sawed a strip and = would node chipping still be an issue. No theoretical answer only = experience need reply. AdamVigil from teekay35@interlynx.net Fri Oct 26 22:29:30 2001 f9R3TUa26230 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:29:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Cool ovens! Nice looking oven! The adjacent picture . . .? isn't that from the =book, American Sportsman Treasury? Treasury? from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 23:08:40 2001 f9R48ea26972 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:08:40 -0500 Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:07:21 -0700 Sat, 27 Oct 2001 04:07:20 GMT Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez FILETIME=[E0345640:01C15E9C] Adam: pleasure of meeting Bill, he was sitting at a picnic table, at Press. I can't tell you what Bill did for his entire rodmaking life, but the stripshe had with him in 1995 were split. The first rodmaking tool I ever built wasBill's node press. It's still one of the best rodmaking tools I own. Bill was quitewell known for his press and it stands to reason that one wouldn't saw strips them but that's all. For those builders who are interested, I've heard thatJohn Long has a few of the Warra Node Presses for sale. check out JW sight for a jig? 2001 10:37 AM pictures to help me saw strips, not reasons why I shouldn't. Obviously it can (And still is) be done judging by the 10 Bazzillion (Not an exact figure) rodsproduced by sawing. Yes, I know some of the worst rods were built that way,but so were some of the best. Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 26 23:09:29 2001 f9R49Sa26997 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:09:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Making it look difficult How difficult is is sharpening a plane and flipping a strip 'til youtouch the former?It is trying to make a living out of it is where the difficulty come in. TerryAdam Vigil wrote: Shoot making a bamboo rod is complicated if you do not stray fromGarrison. But add a beveller here and wetting strips there and thentake a trip to Todd Talsma sight and all of a sudden it is not quiteso hard and becomes more pleasurable. Relativitally speaking in makingfly rods in general the bamboo rod is still king in difficulty bycomparison. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Tony Miller Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Making it look difficultYeah, I would agree Rodmaking is not as complicated as somewould make it.:))And I love to make the customer think thatall my work took a master's degree to make it:)) eventhough this high school educated machinist did the workLOLThat brings up a good point that there are defiantlysecrets in the rod making business.But I think that here(thelist) is the place to put it in perspective for the newmakers who are just beginning to learn.I even thought of aprogram to help get younger high school kids get involved into the craft. Much like they do with fly fishing ingeneral.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 26 23:23:53 2001 f9R4Nqa27403 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:23:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Making it look difficult In the light of recent events I think it would be better to give highschool students maps of the world and some some insight to differentcustoms,after all there is more to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying out loud, Terry Tony Miller wrote: Yeah, I would agree Rodmaking is not as complicated as some wouldmake it.:))And I love to make the customer think that all my work tooka master's degree to make it:)) even though this high school educatedmachinist did the work LOLThat brings up a good point that there aredefiantly secrets in the rod making business.But I think that here(thelist) is the place to put it in perspective for the new makers who arejust beginning to learn.I even thought of a program to help getyounger high school kids get involved in to the craft. Much like theydo with fly fishing in general.TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 26 23:26:26 2001 f9R4QPa27465 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:26:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez Adam,why do you keep directing every posting to JW?. Who the hell is JW? Adam Vigil wrote: Vinnie, I believe Bill Waara sawed his strips. That says a lot. Didyou check out JW sight for a jig? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Vtbamboo@cs.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 10:37 AMSubject: Re: Sawing Strips/GeezAll this info was great, but I am looking for any tips,jigs or pictures to help me saw strips, not reasons why Ishouldn't. Obviously it can ( And still is) be done judging sawing. Yes, I know some of the worst rods were built thatway, but so were some of the best. Vinnie from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 26 23:57:33 2001 f9R4vWa28729 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:57:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Making it look difficult That is what I have noticed on the list, everyone is trying to sell snake oil,not rods. Why would one want to sell a better mill when they could capturethe expanding cane rod market and blow the hand planers away?If it does not work that great then you find suckers and you sell it to them,right?If you happened to come up with a better mill you would only sell one or twoand the rest would be copied!Terry Adam Vigil wrote: If you want an easy way to make a living invent a better mousetrap. Orbetter yet, a better bamboo mill and rodmakers will beat a path to yourdoor. Adam----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:10 PMSubject: Re: Making it look difficult How difficult is is sharpening a plane and flipping a strip 'til youtouch the former?It is trying to make a living out of it is where the difficulty come in. TerryAdam Vigil wrote: Shoot making a bamboo rod is complicated if you do not stray fromGarrison. But add a beveller here and wetting strips there and thentake a trip to Todd Talsma sight and all of a sudden it is not quiteso hard and becomes more pleasurable. Relativitally speaking in makingfly rods in general the bamboo rod is still king in difficulty bycomparison. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Tony Miller Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Making it look difficultYeah, I would agree Rodmaking is not as complicated as somewould make it.:))And I love to make the customer think thatall my work took a master's degree to make it:)) eventhough this high school educated machinist did the workLOLThat brings up a good point that there are defiantlysecrets in the rod making business.But I think that here(thelist) is the place to put it in perspective for the newmakers who are just beginning to learn.I even thought of aprogram to help get younger high school kids get involved into the craft. Much like they do with fly fishing ingeneral.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Oct 26 23:57:52 2001 f9R4p8a28470 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:56:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez Vinnie,the gazillions of sawn rods were made by the gazzillion so a mechanised setup was not only warranted but required. Try the method mentioned then look into sawing if you think it's worth while. The sawing or splitting has nothing to do with the outcome of the rod but the sanity of the maker. Tony At 01:37 PM 10/26/01 -0400, Vtbamboo@cs.com wrote: All this info was great, but I am looking for any tips, jigs or pictures to help me saw strips, not reasons why I shouldn't. Obviously it can ( And still is) be done judging by the 10 Bazzillion (Not an exact figure) rods produced by sawing. Yes, I know some of the worst rods were built that way, but so were some of the best. Vinnie /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from flyfish@defnet.com Sat Oct 27 00:41:14 2001 f9R5dCa00532 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 00:39:14 - for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:02:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Making it look difficult I'm not talking about making it part of their normal studies.:))My daughter is an straight honor roll student.and never had a B on a grade card in here life. Only "A'sI can scan the report cards to prove it.Yet somehow she knows how to flyfish and tie flies .Are you saying you can't know where Diego Garcia is and know how to make =a bamboo rod at the same time?Have you ever seen Braveheart , the part were the Irish guygoes to Wallace and tries join the band of Scotts and the Irish guy =looks up to the lord and says "the lord says "quit avoiding the subject = Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html I'm not talking about making it part of = normal studies.:))My daughter is an straight honor student.and never had a B on a grade card in = Only "A's it.Yet somehow she knows how to flyfish= .Are you saying you can't know where = and know how to make a bamboo rod at the same time?Have you ever seen Braveheart , the = Irish guygoes to Wallace and tries join the band= and the Irish guy looks up to the lord and says "the lord says "quit = Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from DNHayashida@aol.com Sat Oct 27 02:05:58 2001 f9R6rua02132 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:59:56 - for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:28:29 - Subject: Bench Planes and sharp blades I've been using a bench plane to rough my strips lately, and I found eBay to be a good source for the better made older bench planes. If you do try to get a bench plane, I found the No. 3 or 4 size to be the best as far as usability and price. I do like the smaller 2 size, but as you will see if you look on eBay, they command a hefty dollar premium due to their scarcity.Occasionally there is a super rare No. 1 size up for auction, amazingly they go for a thousand dollars or so. No lie! I just got finished sharpening a blade that came on an old plane I bought, and I am amazed at what people used to do to these blades. Most bladesseem to have been sharpened on a coarse grinding wheel. So what is the point of this post? It seems that the "trick" of polishing the back of the blade to be able to get it super sharp wasn't practiced by too many plane owners. I just took 2 hours to polish up the back of this blade and now it's sharper than any new blade could be sharpened. The old steels were extraordinary!Darryl Hayashida I've been using a bench plane to rough my strips lately, and I found eBayto be a good source for the better made older bench planes. If you do try toget a bench plane, I found the No. 3 or 4 size to be the best as far asusability and price. I do like the smaller 2 size, but as you will see if you lookon eBay, they command a hefty dollar premium due to their scarcity.Occasionally there is a super rare No. 1 size up for auction, amazingly theygo for a thousand dollars or so. No lie! I just got finished sharpening a blade that came on an old plane I bought,and I am amazed at what people used to do to these blades. Most bladesseem to have been sharpened on a coarse grinding wheel. So what is thepoint of this post? It seems that the "trick" of polishing the back of theblade to be able to get it super sharp wasn't practiced by too many planeowners. I just took 2 hours to polish up the back of this blade and now it'ssharper than any new blade could be sharpened. The old steels wereextraordinary!Darryl Hayashida from ddeloach@pcisys.net Sat Oct 27 03:29:51 2001 f9R8PTa03482 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 03:25:29 - for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:55:02 -0600 env- from (ddeloach@pcisys.net) Subject: Fw: Making it look difficult You are making a rather sweeping assumption here: that the endgame ofrodmaking is churning out rods that are perfect, superior in every way, ableto be produced and reproduced, exactly, precisely and quickly through theaid of machines. What your logic is missing is the warm and fuzzy feelingmost garage-shop makers get by just being in the shop, ankle deep inshavings. I believe I speak for a lot of us who would rather hand plane for no otherreason than the good feeling it gives us DD ----- Original Message ----- From: T. Ackland Cc: ; Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 10:59 PMSubject: Re: Making it look difficult That is what I have noticed on the list, everyone is trying to sell snake oil, not rods. Why would one want to sell a better mill when they could capture the expanding cane rod market and blow the hand planers away?If it does not work that great then you find suckers and you sell it to them, right?If you happened to come up with a better mill you would only sell one or two and the rest would be copied!Terry Adam Vigil wrote: If you want an easy way to make a living invent a better mousetrap. Or better yet, a better bamboo mill and rodmakers will beat a path to your door. Adam----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:10 PMSubject: Re: Making it look difficult How difficult is is sharpening a plane and flipping a strip 'til youtouch the former?It is trying to make a living out of it is where the difficulty come in. TerryAdam Vigil wrote: Shoot making a bamboo rod is complicated if you do not stray from Garrison. But add a beveller here and wetting strips there and then take a trip to Todd Talsma sight and all of a sudden it is not quite so hard and becomes more pleasurable. Relativitally speaking in making fly rods in general the bamboo rod is still king in difficulty bycomparison. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Tony Miller Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Making it look difficultYeah, I would agree Rodmaking is not as complicated as somewould make it.:))And I love to make the customer think thatall my work took a master's degree to make it:)) eventhough this high school educated machinist did the workLOLThat brings up a good point that there are defiantlysecrets in the rod making business.But I think that here(thelist) is the place to put it in perspective for the newmakers who are just beginning to learn.I even thought of aprogram to help get younger high school kids get involved into the craft. Much like they do with fly fishing ingeneral.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Oct 27 04:15:14 2001 f9R9Dha03942 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 04:13:44 - Subject: Re: Sawing strips/Geez Each to his own but how did you split the bamboo? Did you saw the strips after splitting or right from the culm? Tony 3. I have built 6 rods, 5 from split strips 1 from sawn strips, hand planed (Though I didn't use the usual block plane) 4. The sawn rod came out great, in much less time. 5. I'm a hobbyist, I won't sell any rods, but I want to try/ build as many rods as possible for comparison. 6. I hate straightening nodes. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from shane_person@telus.net Sat Oct 27 04:19:10 2001 f9R9I6a04033 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 04:18:36 - Sat, 27 Oct 2001 02:04:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Cool ovens! Anybody care to share the url of Bret's NEW website?tiaShane Tony Miller wrote: If you guys haven't seen these yet, you need to check them out.They are really, really nice!Here is a link : www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.htmlThanks Bret for the kind words earlier.I was glad to help you out.Everyone, give Bret's NEW website a look and tell him what you think.With all the talk of heat treating on the list ,you might findthese very interesting.Tony Miller from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Oct 27 05:04:09 2001 f9RA3xa04462 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 05:04:07 - id 15xM0F-0002Is-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:27:27 -0700 ([209.178.136.119] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xLzm-00032A-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:26:58 -0700 Subject: Re: Making it look difficult You know when people mined for a living sometimes the only ones that made$were those that sold mining equipment. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Making it look difficult That is what I have noticed on the list, everyone is trying to sell snake oil, not rods. Why would one want to sell a better mill when they could capture the expanding cane rod market and blow the hand planers away?If it does not work that great then you find suckers and you sell it to them, right?If you happened to come up with a better mill you would only sell one or two and the rest would be copied!Terry Adam Vigil wrote: If you want an easy way to make a living invent a better mousetrap. Orbetter yet, a better bamboo mill and rodmakers will beat a path to your door. Adam----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:10 PMSubject: Re: Making it look difficult How difficult is is sharpening a plane and flipping a strip 'til youtouch the former?It is trying to make a living out of it is where the difficulty come in. TerryAdam Vigil wrote: Shoot making a bamboo rod is complicated if you do not stray fromGarrison. But add a beveller here and wetting strips there and thentake a trip to Todd Talsma sight and all of a sudden it is not quiteso hard and becomes more pleasurable. Relativitally speaking in making fly rods in general the bamboo rod is still king in difficulty bycomparison. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Tony Miller Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Making it look difficultYeah, I would agree Rodmaking is not as complicated as somewould make it.:))And I love to make the customer think thatall my work took a master's degree to make it:)) eventhough this high school educated machinist did the workLOLThat brings up a good point that there are defiantlysecrets in the rod making business.But I think that here(thelist) is the place to put it in perspective for the newmakers who are just beginning to learn.I even thought of aprogram to help get younger high school kids get involved into the craft. Much like they do with fly fishing ingeneral.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Oct 27 05:04:54 2001 f9RA48a04464 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 05:04:21 - id 15xLZE-0000fa-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:59:32 -0700 ([209.178.136.119] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xLYp-0003id-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:59:07 -0700 Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez Terry,He is a rodmaker and manufacturer of rodmaking tools. The only one makingajig for sawing that I know of. If you know of anyone making a jig for sawingstrips post it to the list so the person looking for information will know. Funny thing about this rodmakers list. It is actually meant to help fellowrodmakers but some dont see it that way. Adam Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez Adam,why do you keep directing every posting to JW?. Who the hell is JW? Adam Vigil wrote: Vinnie, I believe Bill Waara sawed his strips. That says a lot. Didyou check out JW sight for a jig? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Vtbamboo@cs.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 10:37 AMSubject: Re: Sawing Strips/GeezAll this info was great, but I am looking for any tips,jigs or pictures to help me saw strips, not reasons why Ishouldn't. Obviously it can ( And still is) be done judging sawing. Yes, I know some of the worst rods were built thatway, but so were some of the best. Vinnie from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Oct 27 05:04:58 2001 f9RA4va04474 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 05:04:57 - id 15xL44-0002QQ-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:27:20 -0700 ([209.178.136.119] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xL41-0000BI-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:27:18 -0700 Subject: Re: Making it look difficult If you want an easy way to make a living invent a better mousetrap. Orbetter yet, a better bamboo mill and rodmakers will beat a path to yourdoor. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Making it look difficult How difficult is is sharpening a plane and flipping a strip 'til youtouch the former?It is trying to make a living out of it is where the difficulty come in. TerryAdam Vigil wrote: Shoot making a bamboo rod is complicated if you do not stray fromGarrison. But add a beveller here and wetting strips there and thentake a trip to Todd Talsma sight and all of a sudden it is not quiteso hard and becomes more pleasurable. Relativitally speaking in makingfly rods in general the bamboo rod is still king in difficulty bycomparison. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Tony Miller Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Making it look difficultYeah, I would agree Rodmaking is not as complicated as somewould make it.:))And I love to make the customer think thatall my work took a master's degree to make it:)) eventhough this high school educated machinist did the workLOLThat brings up a good point that there are defiantlysecrets in the rod making business.But I think that here(thelist) is the place to put it in perspective for the newmakers who are just beginning to learn.I even thought of aprogram to help get younger high school kids get involved into the craft. Much like they do with fly fishing ingeneral.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from flyfish@defnet.com Sat Oct 27 05:11:41 2001 f9RAAWa04524 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 05:10:35 - for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:57:47 -0400 Subject: Re:Making it look difficult You know what I've noticed Some snake oil peddlers get mad when other =snake oil peddlers are selling the same snake oil out of the same wagon =on the same street. LOLTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html You know what I've noticed Some snake= get mad when other snake oil peddlers are selling the same snake oil out = same wagon on the same street. LOLTony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from bob@downandacross.com Sat Oct 27 07:29:24 2001 f9RCTIa05722 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 07:29:18 - Subject: RE: Making it look difficult 10 mills sold at $3500-4000 is a heck of a lot of plastic rods. Oops, I meanbamboo. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Making it look difficult That is what I have noticed on the list, everyone is trying to sell snakeoil,not rods. Why would one want to sell a better mill when they could capturethe expanding cane rod market and blow the hand planers away?If it does not work that great then you find suckers and you sell it tothem,right?If you happened to come up with a better mill you would only sell one or twoand the rest would be copied!Terry from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Oct 27 08:04:49 2001 f9RCtka05904 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 07:55:46 - id 15xKxw-0007Yg-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:21:00 -0700 ([209.178.136.119] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xKxM-0003Y3-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:20:24 -0700 Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez I believe I read it in the Planning form. It was speaking of sawing =strips and mentioned him as one who did so. I remember because I knew =nothing of the method but I new the name Warra. I think alot of guys do =things in more than one way. I know I do. I mess around with all kinds =of methods and try to familiarize myself with differant aspects of the =craft. Sawed, Split no que me importa. Shoot I built a nodeless jig and =I still straighten nodes on traditional strips. I will see if I can =find which planning form talks about Warra as somebody that sawed =strips. Adam Subject: Re: Sawing Strips/Geez Adam: Bill Warra is the second rodmaker I ever met. When I had the =pleasure of meeting Bill, he was sitting at a picnic table, at =Grayrocks, pressing and straightening nodes with his Warra Node Press. I =can't tell you what Bill did for his entire rodmaking life, but the =strips he had with him in 1995 were split. The first rodmaking tool I =ever built was Bill's node press. It's still one of the best rodmaking =tools I own. Bill was quite well known for his press and it stands to =reason that one wouldn't saw strips and then try to straighten the =nodes. If you sawed them straight, there'd be nothing to straighten with =the node press. You could flatten them but that's all. For those =builders who are interested, I've heard that John Long has a few of the = Jim I believe Bill Waara sawed his strips. That says a lot. Did you check = All this info was great, but I am looking for any tips, jigs or =pictures to help me saw strips, not reasons why I shouldn't. Obviously =it can ( And still is) be done judging by the 10 Bazzillion (Not an =exact figure) rods produced by sawing. Yes, I know some of the worst = -------------------------------------------------------------------------=-----Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com was speaking of sawing strips and mentioned him as one who did so. I = because I knew nothing of the method but I new the name Warra. I think = guys do things in more than one way. I know I do. I mess around with all = of methods and try to familiarize myself with differant aspects of the = Sawed, Split no que me importa. Shoot I built a nodeless jig and I still = planning form talks about Warra as somebody that sawed =strips. Adam----- Original Message ----- Bureau Sent: Saturday, October 27, = AMSubject: Re: Sawing =Strips/Geez Adam: can't tell you what Bill did for his entire rodmaking life, but the = had with him in 1995 were split. The first rodmaking tool I ever built = Bill's node press. It's still one of the best rodmaking tools I own. = quite well known for his press and it stands to reason that one = them but that's all. For those builders who are interested, I've heard = John Long has a few of the Warra Node Presses for sale. = Jim or pictures to help me saw strips, not reasons why I shouldn't. = can ( And still is) be done judging by the 10 Bazzillion (Not an exact = rods produced by sawing. Yes, I know some of the worst rods were built = Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from flyfishr@istar.ca Sat Oct 27 08:17:16 2001 f9RDHGa06186 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 08:17:16 - helo=flyfishr) id 15xTLH-0003Os-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:17:39 -0400 Subject: Truncated ferrules To all - I'm wondering about the use of light-weight, truncated ferrules,especially on the butt joint of a multi-piece rod where the stress isgreatest. Are truncated ferrules as strong as the standard length? If so, why aren't truncated ferrules "standard", and standard ferrules"extra strong"? Anyone care to help me out? Ron GranthamPort Moody, BC, Canada from DragonflyMAE@aol.com Sat Oct 27 09:13:31 2001 f9REDUa07594 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:13:30 - Subject: Re:Snake oil I just have to say that of all the snakes I've had in my life I've never had to oil any of themPeaceMatthew I just have to say thatof all the snakes I've had in my life I've never had to oil any of them from flyfish@defnet.com Sat Oct 27 10:14:45 2001 f9RFEia08649 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:14:44 - for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:14:46 -0400 Subject: Re:Making it look difficult My last post on this didn't go through, so I'll repost.if the other one comes through later, oh well? Terry A. wrote:In the light of recent events I think it would be better to give highschool students maps of the world and some some insight to differentcustoms,after all there is more to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying out loud, Terry Terry I'm NOT saying you should make it part of their normal studies:))Are you saying you can't know where a place like Diego Garcia isand not know how to make a bamboo rods at the same time.Gee, It's a good thing they don't teach anything like woodshop in our =school. (which they do) LOLThose poor kids might not know where Ohio is.:))Spoken from a father of an All(and I mean every year) honor roll =student. And wow! she(notice I said she)knows how to fly fish and tie =flies.How on earth could she know where Afghanistan is and keep all that = www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html My last post on this didn't go through, = if the other one comes through later, = well? Terry A. wrote: recent events I think it would be better to give highschool students = the world and some some insight to differentcustoms,after all there = to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying = Terry of their normal studies:)) like Diego Garcia isand not know how to make a bamboorods = time.Gee, It's a good thing they don't teach = like woodshop in our school. (which they do) LOLThose poor kids might not know where= is.:))Spoken from a father of an All(and I = fish and tie flies. www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from Lazybee45@aol.com Sat Oct 27 11:09:00 2001 f9RG8xa09597 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:08:59 - Subject: Re: Snake oil rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 10/27/01 9:14:06 AM Central Daylight Time, DragonflyMAE@aol.com writes: Matthew! If you don't oil your snake it might rusty and squeek, which leads to premature snake failure, then they won't do any good at all! So you really must invest in a good quality Snake Oil to keep your snakes in proper shape. I JUST happen to have some. $19.95 a quart! Marked dodwn from$23qt!contact me privately for shipping arrangements!mark from beadman@mac.com Sat Oct 27 12:26:10 2001 f9RHQ9a11125 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:26:09 - Subject: Re: Snake oil At 12:08 PM -0400 , 10/27/01, Lazybee45@aol.com wrote about Re: Snakeoil In a message dated 10/27/01 9:14:06 AM Central Daylight Time,DragonflyMAE@aol.com writes: hadto oil any of themPeaceMatthew >> Matthew! If you don't oil your snake it might rusty and squeek, which leadsto premature snake failure, then they won't do any good at all! So youreally must invest in a good quality Snake Oil to keep your snakes in propershape. I JUST happen to have some. $19.95 a quart! Marked dodwn from$23qt!contact me privately for shipping arrangements!mark Mark...Mark...Mark... You forgot to say: "But, wait! If you order within the next ten minutes, I'll throw in, ABSOLUTELY FREE, this genuine absorbent applicator that is valued at $15.00!! This applicator is specially designed for application of snake oil! It has a yellow absorbent surface on one side and a rough green plastic surface on the other side so you can both clean and oil your snake. Remember, buy your snake oil now for only $19.95 and receive in addition ABSOLUTELY FREE this great applicator worth $15.00!! Call now, our operators are standing by. 1 - 800 - SNAKEOIL" Claude ORMC: Todd, thanks again for going to the effort of putting together the Tips web site - very interesting and informative comments! from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Oct 27 12:45:28 2001 f9RHjQa11784 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:45:26 - Subject: Re: Snake oil You know, you'll think I'm kidding but you can buy goanna oil here. It's not actually made of goanna fat as the base like it used to but it's still sold and used as liniment. It's good too I hate to say. Tony At 01:25 PM 10/27/01 -0400, Claude Freaner wrote: At 12:08 PM -0400 , 10/27/01, Lazybee45@aol.com wrote about Re: Snakeoil In a message dated 10/27/01 9:14:06 AM Central Daylight Time,DragonflyMAE@aol.com writes: hadto oil any of themPeaceMatthew >> Matthew! If you don't oil your snake it might rusty and squeek, which leadsto premature snake failure, then they won't do any good at all! So youreally must invest in a good quality Snake Oil to keep your snakes in propershape. I JUST happen to have some. $19.95 a quart! Marked dodwn from $23qt!contact me privately for shipping arrangements!mark Mark...Mark...Mark... You forgot to say: "But, wait! If you order within the next ten minutes, I'll throw in, ABSOLUTELY FREE, this genuine absorbent applicator that is valued at $15.00!! This applicator is specially designed for application of snake oil! It has a yellow absorbent surface on one side and a rough green plastic surface on the other side so you can both clean and oil your snake. Remember, buy your snake oil now for only $19.95 and receive in addition ABSOLUTELY FREE this great applicator worth $15.00!! Call now, our operators are standing by. 1 - 800 - SNAKEOIL" Claude ORMC: Todd, thanks again for going to the effort of putting together the Tips web site - very interesting and informative comments! /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from ajthramer@hotmail.com Sat Oct 27 13:23:11 2001 f9RINBa12687 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:23:11 - Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:23:12 -0700 Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:23:12 GMT Subject: Re: Truncated ferrules FILETIME=[6FCD8890:01C15F14] I used them on about 75 3pc rods in the late 80's and early 90's. The stress is OK with concern to the metal parts but I have had to reset maybe 10 of the butt ferrules over the years. In conversation with Baily Wood he said that the ferrules could be made even shorter and hold up just fine with regard to the metal stresses. The point being that in my opinion the truncated ferrles have less reserve to soak up abuse and mistreatment. Many of the classic tapers have the ferrules designed into the taper and you need to keep the long ferrules to accurately duplicate the design. In addition many of the original rods were sized with a ferrule that today we would go up one size on, in other words the ferrule stations were undercut. Didn't lead to as many problems as I would have thought. I wonder if the resulting joint that was cut to fully round had something to do with it. CSE long swiss ferrules are slightly longer than original "Z" and truncated are slightly shorter. Bellinger are the same as the original "Z".A.J. From: "Ron Grantham" Subject: Truncated ferrulesDate: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 06:13:42 -0700 To all - I'm wondering about the use of light-weight, truncated ferrules,especially on the butt joint of a multi-piece rod where the stress isgreatest. Are truncated ferrules as strong as the standard length? If so, why aren't truncated ferrules "standard", and standard ferrules"extra strong"? Anyone care to help me out? Ron GranthamPort Moody, BC, Canada _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Oct 27 13:25:31 2001 f9RIPVa12938 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:25:31 - ([209.178.134.205] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xY9H-00018b-00; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:25:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Snake oil Wait a minute you guys! Stop giving away the secrets of snake oil. I havedone a lot of research on snake oil but I will not share it with you becausesomeone may steal it. I did not do all that work on snake oils only to havesome bastard steal from me and call it there own. For heaven sakes howhardis it to make snake oil. It is not rocket science. I developed my own snakeoil press and it is one of a kind. I will not tell you anything about itbecause you might steal it. And anyone else making snake oil presses are abunch of crooks selling crap! If they really did have a great snake oilpress they would corner the snake oil market. And for those still usingtheir hands to get snake oil YOU ARE CRAZY. No one can make a livingprofessionally squeezing snakes by hand. You would only be able to squeezeoil from maybe one or two snakes a month. And for those just starting tosqueeze snakes for oil you have a lot of nerve to charge the same for yoursnake oil as I do. And dont you dare start teaching kids snake squeezingthat is more competition I mean the have better things to learn. YOU AREALLWRONG AND I AM RIGHT...SO THERE! Adam Vigil(the above posting was sarcasm) from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Oct 27 13:28:20 2001 f9RISIa13199 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:28:18 - Subject: Re: Snake oil Sort of like milking snakes for the anti venom serum. I mean, how the hell do you get the chair under one to milk it?I know, very droll. At 11:28 AM 10/27/01 -0700, Adam Vigil wrote: Wait a minute you guys! Stop giving away the secrets of snake oil. I havedone a lot of research on snake oil but I will not share it with you becausesomeone may steal it. I did not do all that work on snake oils only to havesome bastard steal from me and call it there own. For heaven sakes howhardis it to make snake oil. It is not rocket science. I developed my own snakeoil press and it is one of a kind. I will not tell you anything about itbecause you might steal it. And anyone else making snake oil presses are abunch of crooks selling crap! If they really did have a great snake oilpress they would corner the snake oil market. And for those still usingtheir hands to get snake oil YOU ARE CRAZY. No one can make a livingprofessionally squeezing snakes by hand. You would only be able to squeezeoil from maybe one or two snakes a month. And for those just starting tosqueeze snakes for oil you have a lot of nerve to charge the same for yoursnake oil as I do. And dont you dare start teaching kids snake squeezingthat is more competition I mean the have better things to learn. YOU AREALLWRONG AND I AM RIGHT...SO THERE! Adam Vigil(the above posting was sarcasm) /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 13:32:37 2001 f9RIWaa13640 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:32:36 - 27 Oct 2001 11:32:39 PDT Subject: Re: Snake oil beadman@mac.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu wow! sounds just like george g. why are we bringinghim up again? timothy(this above posting is facetious) --- Adam Vigil wrote: Wait a minute you guys! Stop giving away the secretsof snake oil. I havedone a lot of research on snake oil but I will notshare it with you becausesomeone may steal it. I did not do all that work onsnake oils only to havesome bastard steal from me and call it there own. is it to make snake oil. It is not rocket science. Ideveloped my own snakeoil press and it is one of a kind. I will not tellyou anything about itbecause you might steal it. And anyone else makingsnake oil presses are abunch of crooks selling crap! If they really didhave a great snake oilpress they would corner the snake oil market. And their hands to get snake oil YOU ARE CRAZY. No onecan make a livingprofessionally squeezing snakes by hand. You wouldonly be able to squeezeoil from maybe one or two snakes a month. And forthose just starting tosqueeze snakes for oil you have a lot of nerve tocharge the same for yoursnake oil as I do. And dont you dare start teachingkids snake squeezingthat is more competition I mean the have betterthings to learn. YOU ARE ALLWRONG AND I AM RIGHT...SO THERE! Adam Vigil(the above posting was sarcasm) ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Oct 27 13:33:40 2001 f9RIXea13884 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:33:40 - Subject: Re: Snake oil rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Actually I know some people who are low enough Tony that they couldprobably sit under a snake and milk it. Actually I know somepeople who are low enough Tony that they could probably sit under a snakeand milk it. from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat Oct 27 13:39:57 2001 f9RIdua14300 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:39:56 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Snake oil mark, My snake doesn't squeak, but it does rattle. Do you know how totighten the nuts?Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/27/01 9:14:06 AM Central Daylight Time, DragonflyMAE@aol.com writes: Matthew! If you don't oil your snake it might rusty and squeek, which leads to premature snake failure, then they won't do any good at all! from cw@vanion.com Sat Oct 27 13:43:10 2001 f9RIh9a14579 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:43:10 - for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:47:51 - Subject: 3Ms Perfect-It/Finess-It I found a dealer who can order 3M products, can anyone give me the item =or order numbers for the correct polish? 3M makes several items with the = Thanks, Chad I found a dealer who can order 3M= anyone give me the item or order numbers for the correct polish? 3M = several items with the "perfect-it" title. Thanks, =Chad from flyfish@defnet.com Sat Oct 27 13:43:52 2001 f9RIhqa14730 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:43:52 - for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:43:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Snake oil LOL LOL!Reed, I would NOT suggest a torque wrench. :))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html LOL LOL! torque = :))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from rextutor@about.com Sat Oct 27 13:52:07 2001 f9RIq6a15282 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:52:06 - (NPlex 5.5.029) Subject: Re: 3Ms Perfect-It/Finess-It Chad Share that if you find it , please.thanksSign up fora free About Email account at http://About.com from hartzell@easystreet.com Sat Oct 27 14:21:58 2001 f9RJLua15980 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:21:56 - f9RJLxu27150; Subject: Re: Truncated ferrules Allen,I think the general engineering formula is 2.5 x D so a .250 sl;ide shouldbe at least .625 long. I haven't checked this with the Super Z list eithertruncated or regular, but I think it is closer to truncated. I have given up onSuper Z type ferrules since I have had no failures with regular step downonesand am usually knocking down the tips about .010 or a little more over thefemale ferrule dimension. I agree that the SuperZ's are better in engineering,but I don't think we need to go that far and the others are easier to make aswell as more classic in appearance . I'll probably get a lot of jazz aboutthis, but I wouldn't do it unless it works.Allen Thramer wrote: I used them on about 75 3pc rods in the late 80's and early 90's. Thestressis OK with concern to the metal parts but I have had to reset maybe 10 ofthe butt ferrules over the years. In conversation with Baily Wood he saidthat the ferrules could be made even shorter and hold up just fine withregard to the metal stresses. The point being that in my opinion the truncated ferrles have less reserveto soak up abuse and mistreatment. Many of the classic tapers have theferrules designed into the taper and you need to keep the long ferrules toaccurately duplicate the design. In addition many of the original rods weresized with a ferrule that today we would go up one size on, in other wordsthe ferrule stations were undercut. Didn't lead to as many problems as Iwould have thought. I wonder if the resulting joint that was cut to fullyround had something to do with it. CSE long swiss ferrules are slightly longer than original "Z" and truncatedare slightly shorter. Bellinger are the same as the original "Z".A.J. From: "Ron Grantham" Subject: Truncated ferrulesDate: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 06:13:42 -0700 To all - I'm wondering about the use of light-weight, truncated ferrules,especially on the butt joint of a multi-piece rod where the stress isgreatest. Are truncated ferrules as strong as the standard length? If so, why aren't truncated ferrules "standard", and standard ferrules"extra strong"? Anyone care to help me out? Ron GranthamPort Moody, BC, Canada _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Sat Oct 27 14:35:52 2001 f9RJZpa16437 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:35:52 - , , Subject: Re: Snake oil Hi all,So what's the deal with George G.....I'm curious. Losey ----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Re: Snake oil wow! sounds just like george g. why are we bringinghim up again? timothy(this above posting is facetious) --- Adam Vigil wrote: Wait a minute you guys! Stop giving away the secretsof snake oil. I havedone a lot of research on snake oil but I will notshare it with you becausesomeone may steal it. I did not do all that work onsnake oils only to havesome bastard steal from me and call it there own. is it to make snake oil. It is not rocket science. Ideveloped my own snakeoil press and it is one of a kind. I will not tellyou anything about itbecause you might steal it. And anyone else makingsnake oil presses are abunch of crooks selling crap! If they really didhave a great snake oilpress they would corner the snake oil market. And their hands to get snake oil YOU ARE CRAZY. No onecan make a livingprofessionally squeezing snakes by hand. You wouldonly be able to squeezeoil from maybe one or two snakes a month. And forthose just starting tosqueeze snakes for oil you have a lot of nerve tocharge the same for yoursnake oil as I do. And dont you dare start teachingkids snake squeezingthat is more competition I mean the have betterthings to learn. YOU ARE ALLWRONG AND I AM RIGHT...SO THERE! Adam Vigil(the above posting was sarcasm) ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from Lazybee45@aol.com Sat Oct 27 14:54:29 2001 f9RJsTa17024 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:54:29 - Subject: Re: Snake oil rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 10/27/01 1:29:10 PM Central Daylight Time, avyoung@iinet.net.au writes: More importantly whare are the spigotts? Cows have those ....things...hanging dodwn, but a snake.!!! Do you use tweezers? and what happens if you don't warm your hands first? Ohhhh I bet THAT will leave a mark!mark from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Sat Oct 27 15:03:52 2001 f9RK3pa17399 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:03:52 - ,, Subject: Re: Snake oil If you could fabricate a electric milker for the snake you could take thesnake oil market by storm. Losey ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Snake oil In a message dated 10/27/01 1:29:10 PM Central Daylight Time,avyoung@iinet.net.au writes: helldo you get the chair under one to milk it?I know, very droll. More importantly whare are the spigotts? Cows have those....things...hanging dodwn, but a snake.!!! Do you use tweezers? and what happens if you don't warm your hands first? Ohhhh I bet THAT will leave amark!mark from Lazybee45@aol.com Sat Oct 27 15:06:09 2001 f9RK68a17614 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:06:08 - Subject: Re: Snake oil rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 10/27/01 1:40:22 PM Central Daylight Time,rcurry@ttlc.net writes: from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Sat Oct 27 15:28:56 2001 f9RKSua18293 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:28:56 - Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:28:57 -0700 Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:28:57 GMT Subject: Re: Let's do it again FILETIME=[0119D270:01C15F26] A few days ago there was a rather interesting thread: someone posted a request for opinions about 7 foot 4 weights. The replies were very informative, and I learned about some tapers that I had previously not been familiar with. I thought we might restart that thread, but with a different line weight. I would like to build a 7 1/2 foot five weight this winter. It should be a true five weight, and not as fast as either of the Dickerson 7613 versions. Does anyone have any recommendations or suggestions? Looking for that all around 5 weight useful in a variety of situations. And it must be 7 1/2 feet in length. So what are your favorite tapers and why to you like them? Note: I have to do some traveling and may not be able to respond to on or off list posts for a couple days. Jeff Schaeffer _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from "Marty D. aka \"none" Sat Oct 27 15:57:31 2001 f9RKvVa19061 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:57:31 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4166. . Clean. Processed in 0.33273 secs); 27 Oct 200120:57:37 -0000 Subject: Re: Truncated ferrules I use truncated ferrules on all 3pc. rods and on most 2pc. 6' and under.I just like thier looks. I am sure I am sacrificing some strength comparedto standard but (I believe) they are plenty strong enough for trout rods.Marty Ron Grantham wrote: To all - I'm wondering about the use of light-weight, truncated ferrules,especially on the butt joint of a multi-piece rod where the stress isgreatest. Are truncated ferrules as strong as the standard length? If so, why aren't truncated ferrules "standard", and standard ferrules"extra strong"? Anyone care to help me out? Ron GranthamPort Moody, BC, Canada from "Marty D. aka \"none" Sat Oct 27 16:05:19 2001 f9RL5Ja19383 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:05:19 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4166. . Clean. Processed in 0.29254 secs); 27 Oct 200120:59:36 -0000 Subject: Re: Let's do it again In 7 1/2' I like the Paul Young perfectionist, and the 7 1/2' WM Grangertaper.Although some would argue that they are both 4 weights , I like them with aDT#5. Both are great casters! Marty Jeff Schaeffer wrote: A few days ago there was a rather interesting thread: someone posted arequest for opinions about 7 foot 4 weights. The replies were veryinformative, and I learned about some tapers that I had previously not beenfamiliar with. I thought we might restart that thread, but with a differentline weight. I would like to build a 7 1/2 foot five weight this winter. It should be atrue five weight, and not as fast as either of the Dickerson 7613 versions.Does anyone have any recommendations or suggestions? Looking for thatallaround 5 weight useful in a variety of situations. And it must be 7 1/2 feetin length. So what are your favorite tapers and why to you like them? Note: I have to do some traveling and may not be able to respond to on oroff list posts for a couple days. Jeff Schaeffer _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from rwallace@greatnorthern.net Sat Oct 27 16:28:28 2001 f9RLSRa19925 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:28:28 - forged)) for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:28:29 -0700 Subject: I love this list! was Re: Ferrule Problems Hey Everybody! Thanks for all the help on my ferrule problems. Within an hour of myoriginal post, I had 5 replies with some great tips. There have been 10total replies and I'll probably end up using a little bit from each one.I'll be tackling this problem today. Thanks again. See yaRay from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Oct 27 17:12:55 2001 f9RMCsa20864 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:12:54 - Subject: Re: Let's do it again The Bill Waara taper we used for the Grand Experiment is a very nice 7 1/2 foot 5 weight that I would highly recommend. (TPF Issue #60) I am also a fan of the Garrison 209, and probably fish that taper more than anything else all around trout fishing. If you want to go a bit longer, I have heard good things about Don Anderson's 7'9" 5 weight, which is listed at the Rodmakers site. One of these days I am going to get around to building it. from Vtbamboo@cs.com Sat Oct 27 17:20:40 2001 f9RMKda21230 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:20:39 - for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:20:42 - Subject: Did I Screw Up The first 6 rods I built came pretty easy, so gaining confidence when I selected the cane for my last rod I tried to squeeze out an extra rod, cutting the length closer than I would normally do, staggering before final splitting, etc. I wanted to make a 7' (Sir D) rod. I have always used the Garrison node spacing but decided to use the 2x2 spacing with the last set of sticks. I staggered them, cut them to length & then set them aside. Now a month later I had the time to work on the rod. I spent the day straightening/pressing nodes &rough planing. When I taped them together in prep for heat treat binding, noticed instead of offsetting the group of 2 strips 1/3 the distance between nodes, I only moved them 2 inches (Like I do w/ Garr.) This culm had a wide spacing between nodes, 16 inches at the butt end. The result: 6 nodes on a 2x2 stagger only 4" apart, with 12 inches of clear cane between.Also the nodes are centered on the length of the strip so I couldn't flip some end for end to vary spacing. All strips (18) were cut from the butt end of the same culm.Help!!!1. Should I not worry about this & just build the rod?2. Should I mix the strips I have together to get a 3x3 stagger & then build a shorter rod?3. Should I just make a 3 piece (I have leftover strips from the tip of the same culm)?4. Is a 3 piece Sir D a good taper? 5. Am I missing something obvious?6. Should i be flogged for ruining a great culm?7. Is this what I get for straying from the Garrison book? I selected the cane for my last rod I tried to squeeze out an extra rod,cutting the length closer than I would normally do, staggering before final Garrison node spacing but decided to use the 2x2 spacing with the last set ofsticks. I staggered them, cut them to length & then set them aside. Nowa month later I had the time to work on the rod. I spent the daystraightening/pressing nodes &rough planing. When I taped themtogether in prep for heat treat binding, noticed instead of offsetting thegroup of 2 strips 1/3 the distance between nodes, I only moved them 2inches (Like I do w/ Garr.) This culm had a wide spacing between nodes, 16inches at the butt end. The result: 6 nodes on a 2x2 stagger only 4" ap!art, with 12 inches of clear cane between.Also the nodes are centered on thelength of the strip so I couldn't flip some end for end to vary spacing. Allstrips (18) were cut from the butt end of the same culm.Help!!!1. Should I not worry about this & just build the rod?2. Should I mix the strips I have together to get a 3x3 stagger &then build a shorter rod?3. Should I just make a 3 piece (I have leftover strips from the tip ofthe same culm)?4. Is a 3 piece Sir D a good taper? 5. Am I missing something obvious?6. Should i be flogged for ruining a great culm?7. Is this what I get for straying from the Garrisonbook? from flyfish@defnet.com Sat Oct 27 18:59:48 2001 f9RNxla22543 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:59:48 - for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:59:51 -0400 Subject: Dip tube motor I just looked at Larry Blan's Dip tube motor on Todd T's site.Larry, very interesting.:)) nice work!Do you sell them? and tell us a little about themCan you control the speed ,what RPM?What are the switches for?it looks cool ,lots of lights and buttons.if you want, contact me on or off list, I'm curious.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html I just looked at Larry Blan's Dip tube = Todd T's site.Larry, very interesting.:)) nice =work!Do you sell them? and tell us a little = themCan you control the speed ,what =RPM?What are the switchesfor? buttons. = curious.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 19:19:58 2001 f9S0Jva23045 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:19:57 - 27 Oct 2001 17:19:53 PDT Subject: Re: Did I Screw Up you are fine! proceed. --- Vtbamboo@cs.com wrote: The first 6 rods I built came prettyeasy, so gaining confidence when I selected the cane for my last rod I tried tosqueeze out an extra rod, cutting the length closer than I would normally do,staggering before final splitting, etc. I wanted to make a 7' (Sir D) rod.I have always used the Garrison node spacing but decided to use the 2x2spacing with the last set of sticks. I staggered them, cut them to length & thenset them aside. Now a month later I had the time to work on the rod. Ispent the day straightening/pressing nodes &rough planing. When Itaped them together in prep for heat treat binding, noticed instead ofoffsetting the group of 2 strips 1/3 the distance between nodes, I only movedthem 2 inches (Like I do w/ Garr.) This culm had a wide spacing betweennodes, 16 inches at the butt end. The result: 6 nodes on a 2x2 stagger only 4"apart, with 12 inches of clear cane between.Also the nodes are centered onthe length of the strip so I couldn't flip some end for end to vary spacing.All strips (18) were cut from the butt end of the same culm.Help!!!1. Should I not worry about this & just build therod?2. Should I mix the strips I have together to get a3x3 stagger & then build a shorter rod?3. Should I just make a 3 piece (I have leftoverstrips from the tip of the same culm)?4. Is a 3 piece Sir D a good taper? 5. Am I missing something obvious?6. Should i be flogged for ruining a great culm?7. Is this what I get for straying from the Garrisonbook? ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from flytyr@southshore.com Sat Oct 27 19:33:12 2001 f9S0XBa23461 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:33:11 - f9S0XDS10346 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:33:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Let's do it again Tom,Saw the Waara rod today at the SRG. Was too late to cast it , John wasputtingthings away.Reason for replying, I cast your "Poor Man's Quad". WOW. WOW. WOW.You did not even have to try to cast, it did it by itself.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: The Bill Waara taper we used for the Grand Experiment is a very nice 7 1/2foot 5 weight that I would highly recommend. (TPF Issue #60) I am also afanof the Garrison 209, and probably fish that taper more than anything elseforall around trout fishing. If you want to go a bit longer, I have heard goodthings about Don Anderson's 7'9" 5 weight, which is listed at theRodmakerssite. One of these days I am going to get around to building it. from martinrjensen@home.com Sat Oct 27 19:36:38 2001 f9S0aca23744 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:36:38 - femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:36:39 -0700 Subject: RE: Did I Screw Up I would say proceed. If this is your seventh rod then what you need iscompleted rods under your belt, NOT the absolutely most perfect rod. Youneed rodzzzzz. Notice the plural. That will come with time. You probablywon't even notice it action wise. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Did I Screw Up The first 6 rods I built came pretty easy, so gainingconfidence when I selected the cane for my last rod I tried to squeezeout an extra rod, cutting the length closer than I would normally do,staggering before final splitting, etc. I wanted to make a 7' (Sir D)rod. I have always used the Garrison node spacing but decided to use the2x2 spacing with the last set of sticks. I staggered them, cut them tolength & then set them aside. Now a month later I had the time to workon the rod. I spent the day straightening/pressing nodes &rough planing.When I taped them together in prep for heat treat binding, noticedinstead of offsetting the group of 2 strips 1/3 the distance betweennodes, I only moved them 2 inches (Like I do w/ Garr.) This culm had awide spacing between nodes, 16 inches at the butt end. The result: 6nodes on a 2x2 stagger only 4" ap! art, with 12 inches of clear canebetween.Also the nodes are centered on the length of the strip so Icouldn't flip some end for end to vary spacing. All strips (18) were cut from the butt end of the same culm.Help!!! 1. Should I not worry about this & just build the rod? 2. Should I mix the strips I have together to get a 3x3 stagger & thenbuild a shorter rod? 3. Should I just make a 3 piece (I have leftover strips from the tip ofthe same culm)? 4. Is a 3 piece Sir D a good taper? 5. Am I missing something obvious? 6. Should i be flogged for ruining a great culm? 7. Is this what I get for straying from the Garrison book? Message would say proceed. If this is your seventh rod then what you need is = rods under your belt, NOT the absolutely most perfect rod. You need = it action wise. Jensen -----Original Message----- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = On Behalf Of Vtbamboo@cs.comSent: Saturday,October = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: = first 6 rods I built came pretty easy, so gaining confidence when I = the cane for my last rod I tried to squeeze out an extra rod, cutting = length closer than I would normally do, staggering before final = node spacing but decided to use the 2x2 spacing with the last set of = staggered them, cut them to length & then set them aside. Now a = straightening/pressing nodes &rough planing. When I taped them = prep for heat treat binding, noticed instead of offsetting the group = strips 1/3 the distance between nodes, I only moved them 2 inches = w/ Garr.) This culm had a wide spacing between nodes, 16 inches at the = end. The result: 6 nodes on a 2x2 stagger only 4" ap! art, with 12 = clear cane between.Also the nodes are centered on the length of the = couldn't flip some end for end to vary spacing. All strips (18) were = the butt end of the same culm.Help!!! 1. Should I not worry about = & just build the rod? 2. Should I mix the strips I have = get a 3x3 stagger & then build a shorter rod? 3. Should I just = 3 piece (I have leftover strips from the tip of the same culm)? 4. = piece Sir D a good taper? 5. Am I missing something obvious? = i be flogged for ruining a great culm? 7. Is this what I get for = from the Garrison book? from iank@ts.co.nz Sat Oct 27 19:59:16 2001 f9S0xEa24121 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:59:14 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:06:11+1300 Subject: "real" Southern rodmakers gathering Message The Southern hemisphere rodmakers gathering is being held in Nelson , =New Zealand , on the second weekend in March , 2002. To date we have =attendees from the USA, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand. Air fares may continue to be very cheap for a while yet so now is the =chance to make a visit. Interested people should contact me. Message This just a reminder , now that = again. The Southern hemisphere rodmakers = being held in Nelson , New Zealand , on the second weekend in March , = Zealand. Air fares may continue to be very cheap for a while yet so now is = chance to make a visit. Interested people should contact =me. Ian = from stoltz10@home.com Sat Oct 27 21:19:43 2001 f9S2Jga25544 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:19:42 - femail38.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: RE: heatgun oven question Thank you to all for your help. Insulating the oven worked great. Thanks, Tim the oven worked great. Thanks,Tim from drinkr@voicenet.com Sat Oct 27 21:22:00 2001 f9S2M0a25812 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:22:00 - (207.103.93.19) Subject: Motor I have reinvented my dip tank and have replaced a 1rpm AC motor with a DCstepper. Any of you new makers who are looking for a motor contact me offlist and Ill send it at the cost of shipping.David Rinker from dpvbkjs@somtel.com Sat Oct 27 22:19:52 2001 f9S3Jpa26683 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 22:19:51 - Subject: for Willis Reid Hi, We lost your address. Could you e-mail us? Kat and David from piscator@macatawa.org Sat Oct 27 23:46:39 2001 f9S4kca27793 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:46:38 - Subject: 7'6" 5 wt.s I also like the PHY Perfectionist. from ctn45555@centurytel.net Sun Oct 28 00:59:39 2001 f9S5xca28781 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 00:59:38 - f9S5xhR23473 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 00:59:43 - Organization: Smith & Boyd Subject: Equipment for making ferrules I have a Sherline 4400 lathe and am wanting to get set up for makingferrules. What equipment will I need to do that (i.e. in addition to the3 jaw chuck, tool post, and tailstock chuck, which I have). I would beparticularly interested in hearing from those who have a Sherline andmake ferrules with it. Thank you in advance, Chad Boyd from ajthramer@hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 01:02:09 2001 f9S629a29071 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:02:09 - Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:02:10 -0700 Sun, 28 Oct 2001 06:02:10 GMT Subject: Re: Truncated ferrules FILETIME=[14F3DBB0:01C15F76] Hi ed, I've heard that formula for the slide length before and it probably works fine. I have been using mostly leonard type ferrules in the last year. The swiss style look awfully clunky next to them. Never have noticed any strength difference in practical use even though the conventional wisdom seems to be that they should be breaking right and left. Makes you wonder how those untold thousands of rods have survived.A.J. From: Ed Hartzell CC: flyfishr@istar.ca, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Truncated ferrulesDate: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:22:44 -0700 Allen,I think the general engineering formula is 2.5 x D so a .250 sl;ide shouldbe at least .625 long. I haven't checked this with the Super Z list eithertruncated or regular, but I think it is closer to truncated. I have given up onSuper Z type ferrules since I have had no failures with regular step down onesand am usually knocking down the tips about .010 or a little more over thefemale ferrule dimension. I agree that the SuperZ's are better in engineering ,but I don't think we need to go that far and the others are easier to make aswell as more classic in appearance . I'll probably get a lot of jazz aboutthis, but I wouldn't do it unless it works.Allen Thramer wrote: I used them on about 75 3pc rods in the late 80's and early 90's. The stress is OK with concern to the metal parts but I have had to reset maybe 10 of the butt ferrules over the years. In conversation with Baily Wood he said that the ferrules could be made even shorter and hold up just fine withregard to the metal stresses. The point being that in my opinion the truncated ferrles have less reserve to soak up abuse and mistreatment. Many of the classic tapers have theferrules designed into the taper and you need to keep the long ferrules to accurately duplicate the design. In addition many of the original rods were sized with a ferrule that today we would go up one size on, in other words the ferrule stations were undercut. Didn't lead to as many problems as Iwould have thought. I wonder if the resulting joint that was cut to fully round had something to do with it. CSE long swiss ferrules are slightly longer than original "Z" and truncated are slightly shorter. Bellinger are the same as the original "Z".A.J. From: "Ron Grantham" Subject: Truncated ferrulesDate: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 06:13:42 -0700 To all - I'm wondering about the use of light-weight, truncated ferrules,especially on the butt joint of a multi-piece rod where the stress isgreatest. Are truncated ferrules as strong as the standard length? If so, why aren't truncated ferrules "standard", and standard ferrules"extra strong"? Anyone care to help me out? Ron GranthamPort Moody, BC, Canada _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from petermckean@netspace.net.au Sun Oct 28 01:51:17 2001 f9S7pFa01918 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:51:16 - f9S7pCS78966; Subject: Re: Snake oil Reed You treat the rattles pretty much the same way you treat the squeaks; it'sjust a matter of scale! Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Snake oil mark,My snake doesn't squeak, but it does rattle. Do you know how to tightenthe nuts?Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/27/01 9:14:06 AM Central Daylight Time,DragonflyMAE@aol.com writes: Matthew! If you don't oil your snake it might rusty and squeek, which leads to premature snake failure, then they won't do any good at all! from castafly63@home.com Sun Oct 28 02:11:09 2001 f9S8B8a02782 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 02:11:08 - User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Trim Wraps Does anyone have any hints or techniques they can share for adding trimwraps? I'm struggling with trying to add them to guide wraps, and nothaving a lot of success (and getting very frustrated!). Surely there's aneasier way.... from "Marty D. aka \"none" Sun Oct 28 04:17:28 2001 f9SAHRa04115 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 04:17:27 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4166. . Clean. Processed in 0.830142 secs); 28 Oct 200110:11:15 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: Trim Wraps What I do is very straight forward. I go around the blank once and catch thetag end (as you start any wrap) . Next place the pull cord under the wrap .Proceed and count as many wraps that cover the pull cord as you want(usually3-5 turns with Gossamer depending on the look you want). Pull the tag endunder with the pull cord . Slide the wrap tight to the guide wrap. I thensimultaniously tug both tag ends in opposte directions to tighten the wrapandthen trim tag ends. The only thing I would call a tip is the fact that I wrapover a blank that has been sealed with 1 Extremely THIN COAT of sparvarnishrubbed on as thin as possible with my fingers and allowed to dry .Then I rublightly with #0000 steel wool. Doing this gives the wrapper a bit of frictionto work with that he wouldn't have with an unsealed blank. Marty Jeff Ferguson wrote: Does anyone have any hints or techniques they can share for adding trimwraps? I'm struggling with trying to add them to guide wraps, and nothaving a lot of success (and getting very frustrated!). Surely there's aneasier way.... from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Oct 28 06:23:38 2001 f9SCNba05299 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 06:23:38 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:20:01 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Equipment for making ferrules Chad,that is a good question, one myself and many others before us haveasked.Here's an idea...why don't some of the guys that have various lathes (i.e.Sherline,Grizzly, ect., ect.) post a list of what exactly you need to have to makeferrules,to make ferrules and reel seats, to make ferrules, reel seats and lockinghardware.In the research I've done I have found a great variance in the amount ofaccessories that various mini lathes come with. In my opinion, there isnothing worsethan buying an expensive tool like a lathe and then finding out you have to gooutand spend as much on accessories to be able to do what you thought youcould havedone with the lathe in the first place.Come to think of it that would make a good article for the next PowerFibersMag eh Bob?? Take people through the whole process, right from selecting alathe forwhat you want to do right up to some charts for ferrule sizes, andaccessoriesrequired for the common mini lathes to accomplish what we do. Just athought on whatI think is a topic that seems to rear it's ugly head time after time,Shawn Amy & Chad wrote: I have a Sherline 4400 lathe and am wanting to get set up for makingferrules. What equipment will I need to do that (i.e. in addition to the3 jaw chuck, tool post, and tailstock chuck, which I have). I would beparticularly interested in hearing from those who have a Sherline andmake ferrules with it. Thank you in advance, Chad Boyd from pohl@earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 06:39:24 2001 f9SCdNa05717 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 06:39:23 - helo=pohl) id 15xpDt-0006Hb-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 04:39:30 -0800 Subject: General taper question I'm new at this..... My question is- the tapers that are in the archives,are these the dimensions of the completed rod or of just one of thesegments? If it's the completed rod demension than is the dimension of asegment, rod denension / 2. Also, i'f someone mics a rod and you want tobuild it, how do you compensate for the coating that's on rod?Thanks,Mark from "Marty D. aka \"none" Sun Oct 28 06:50:36 2001 f9SCoZa06006 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 06:50:35 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4166. . Clean. Processed in 0.822514 secs); 28 Oct 200112:44:49 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: General taper question If not stated otherwise the dimensions are the blank diameter and must bedivided by 2 to set the form. Also if measured over varnish it should bestated (measured over varnish deduct .004") . If not stated I take it to meanactual dimension without varnish. Marty Mark & Kathy Pohl wrote: I'm new at this..... My question is- the tapers that are in the archives,are these the dimensions of the completed rod or of just one of thesegments? If it's the completed rod demension than is the dimension of asegment, rod denension / 2. Also, i'f someone mics a rod and you want tobuild it, how do you compensate for the coating that's on rod?Thanks,Mark from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 28 06:54:54 2001 f9SCsqa06259 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 06:54:53 - Subject: Re: Equipment for making ferrules I have a Sherline lathe. It was my first little lathe and also my last _little_ lathe. I say that because small lathes have their drawbacks and no matter how well the lathe is made a small lathe has a lot of vibration and small chucks with small corresponding chucking area.However The Sherline is an extremely well made, designed and finished as well as pleasant little machine to use.I wrote the below link about a year back:www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/sherline.htm I'm in the process of redesigning my web page so everything is currently a bit disjointed but the link is there.It may be worth a look if you're interested in my ideas on them. I haven't read the above for a while so I can't remember if I mention it or not but I now use my Sherline fitted with the mill attachment in conjunction with an index head to slit the tabs for the ferrules I make and it works very well indeed for that purpose. Tony At 10:53 PM 10/27/01 -0700, Amy & Chad wrote: I have a Sherline 4400 lathe and am wanting to get set up for makingferrules. What equipment will I need to do that (i.e. in addition to the3 jaw chuck, tool post, and tailstock chuck, which I have). I would beparticularly interested in hearing from those who have a Sherline andmake ferrules with it. Thank you in advance, Chad Boyd /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from fquinchat@locl.net Sun Oct 28 07:08:38 2001 f9SD8ba06680 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:08:37 - Subject: Glue Joints Ray Gould mentions that epon and urac glue joints add .005 to the flat toflat dimension. Is this also true for Nyatex Epoxy? Dennis Bertram from channer@frontier.net Sun Oct 28 07:36:22 2001 f9SDaLa07217 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:36:21 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 06:41:48 - Subject: Re: Trim Wraps Jeff;Another way to do trim wraps is to wet the thread first. I just lick myfingers and pull the thread thru them, the more fastidious probably usedistilled water, 6" or so is probably enuf for a 4 turn wrap. I then goover the blank and the pull loop, cross over the tag and make 4 turns,cut and pull the tag thru and snug it all up to the main wrap. Actually,I snug up to the main wrap as I am going around with the 4th turn, 3turns over the start will hold it in place so I can let go of the firsttag. Wetting the thread really makes it grab and hold, singe the wholewrap as son as you get it al tight and the wet thread will shrink just abit and hold even tighter. As with the rest of this, there is more thanone way to skin a cat.john Jeff Ferguson wrote: Does anyone have any hints or techniques they can share for adding trimwraps? I'm struggling with trying to add them to guide wraps, and nothaving a lot of success (and getting very frustrated!). Surely there's aneasier way.... from "Marty D. aka \"none" Sun Oct 28 08:00:27 2001 f9SE0Qa07652 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:00:26 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4166. . Clean. Processed in 0.915563 secs); 28 Oct 200113:54:40 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: Heddon 6' 2/2 DT#4 --------------5D8BC909278FC2F51939222D Hi Bret, Here is the final taper I promised. A very rare a neat 6'Heddon. Rod has the Typical plastic reelseat but the grip has a factoryinstalled elevated thumb rest as found on Marvin Hedges Heddon rods. Rodis more of a miniuture trout rod then a midge rod.Marty PS. neatovens! 6' 2/2 DT#4 #14 Heddonmeasured over varnish deduct .004"Butt Tip00 .178 .07505 .184 .08510 .200 .09715 .218 .11220 .233 .12825 .245 .13827 .252 (start of grip)30 .252 .15735 .252 .165 Guide spacing: 4 3/8", 10", 16 7/8", 24 5/8", 32 1/8", 40 1/8",48 7/8" Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: I do not remember if I told you thanks for the taper. ThanksBret --------------5D8BC909278FC2F51939222D Hi Bret, Here is the final taper I promised. A very rare a neat 6' Heddon.Rod has the Typical plastic reelseat but the grip has a factory installedelevated thumb rest as found on Marvin Hedges Heddon rods. Rod is more ovens! measured over varnish deduct .004" Tip .075 .085 .097 .112 .128 .138 .252 (start of grip) .157 .165 10",16 7/8", 24 5/8", 32 1/8", 40 1/8", 48 7/8" Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:I do not Bret --------------5D8BC909278FC2F51939222D-- from eamlee@email.msn.com Sun Oct 28 08:00:31 2001 f9SE0Ua07656 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:00:30 - Sun, 28 Oct 2001 06:00:37 -0800 Subject: Re: Equipment for making ferrules Organization: Microsoft Corporation FILETIME=[EBCDF890:01C15FB8] Hi Shawn-On my Grizz 7x12, I had to buy a tailstock chuck, live center, cutting toolsand blanks, knurling tool with ass. knurls, shims, cutting fluids, dialguage with magnetic base, assorted drill bits, slitting saws and arbor,boring bar w/insert, variety of wet/dry sandpapers, grinder wheel, buffingcompounds, and Crest toothpaste. This of course does not include NS stock,practice stock, bluing formula, polishes, lacquer, homemade mandrels, jigsand gasoline...............gas to drive to Dave Leclairs house (15min away) helpful as Dave close, but there are a number of other resources on the weband in print. I have not cut threads, yet, but if I did I was told I wouldneed an outside thread cutting tool, inside thread cutting tool, or taps anddies, and a pint of Asprin. I hear it's a little tricky and damn it Captain,I am a chef, not a machinist! What did I get out of all of this? Winding checks, cap and ring reel seats,ferrules, cork checks, grips, reel seat fillers, and a good relationshipwith my local industrial supply shops. What kind of dough did I save making my own hardware? Uncountedthousands...........just like flytying! LOL So, yes I had to buy a lot of stuff to get going, but the nice thing aboutthe grizz is the plethera of choices in tools you can choose from. Myexperience with "all the stuff you need to get started" packages is youusually wind up replacing the "we threw it in" tools with better made, handselected tools. This has been my experience, no "right or wrong," just things I have noticedon my little journey. Eamon LeeSyracuse, NY from bob@downandacross.com Sun Oct 28 08:09:48 2001 f9SE9la08326 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:09:47 - Subject: RE: Equipment for making ferrules Chad;I use the Sherline and make a limited number of ferrules on it (for mypersonal rods). I would recommend:* good drill bits in ferrule sizes (I have been told to get machinescrew drill bits, but the HSS ones I have work fine).* straight fluted reamers (you need all the sizes for ferrules youwnat plus sizes 2/64s bigger to do the female)* Sherline live center* Sherline center drills* cutting fluid (I have some of the Edge environmentally friendlystuff, and I like it a lot.)* good, sharp HSS cutters (I have a Valentine diamond bit fromSherline and it works fantastic. $100+ though. You need the 3/8 tool post.)* Sherline cut off tool and blade* magnetic stand for your indicator (if the handwheels are not enough.they work fine for me). I get almost all my bits and reamers from Travers, the rest from Sherline. Good luck, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Equipment for making ferrules I have a Sherline 4400 lathe and am wanting to get set up for makingferrules. What equipment will I need to do that (i.e. in addition to the3 jaw chuck, tool post, and tailstock chuck, which I have). I would beparticularly interested in hearing from those who have a Sherline andmake ferrules with it. Thank you in advance, Chad Boyd name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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 from if6were9@bellsouth.net Sun Oct 28 08:10:43 2001 f9SEAga08486 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:10:42 - ;Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:11:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Trim Wraps JeffA simple way to do trim that allows you to do even single turns with ease.1. Start with a length of trim thread and a pull loop and lay these outparallel to the centerline of the rod in the area where you will start yourguide wrap. You can use thin strips of masking tape to hold the trim and loopin place. On a fly rod, line up the trim and loop with the guide foot.2. Start your guide wrap in the usual manner and put on 5 to 7 turns.3. Keeping tension on the guide wrap thread but holding the rod steady, wrapthe trim thread around the rod and pull loop, putting the tag end of the trimthrough the loop on the last round.4. Hold a thumb on the trim/pull loop and pull the loop through. You willnow have a neat, well secured trim band and two tags coming out from undertheend of your guide wrap. You can either trim both and proceed with the guidewrap, or trim one and lay the other back and trim it after a few more turnsofthe guide wrap thread. The order you lay on the trim thread and pull loop depends on which directionyou rotate the rod to apply the guide wrap and is something you will need toexperiment with, but the idea is to lay it out so the tag end of the trimthread lays over the end that is anchored by the guide wrap when you pull thetag through. It's much easier to see that it it is for me to explain. Giveit a few practice runs and I think you will find it to be a simple method ofgetting what you want. This is the only way I've found to get single threadtrim bands that look good time after time. Most of the time I use a doublethread trim, but if the contrast allows, nothing looks better (IMHO) than asingle thread trim. Hope this helps.Pat Jeff Ferguson wrote: Does anyone have any hints or techniques they can share for adding trimwraps? I'm struggling with trying to add them to guide wraps, and nothaving a lot of success (and getting very frustrated!). Surely there's aneasier way.... from bob@downandacross.com Sun Oct 28 08:16:11 2001 f9SEGAa08885 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:16:11 - Subject: RE: Equipment for making ferrules Shawn:Tom Ausfeld has a great article on ferrule making for January 2002. It isvery comprehensive.The reel seat making has been done twice, once by Bob Nunley and once byGary Dabrowski. Gary also has a great piece on making drawn metal hardwarein the newest issue. Ferrule making also appeared in the October 2000issue. Bob Nunley also had his bamboo ferrule piece in July 2001...I thoughtyou guys were reading the magazine (just kidding).Thanks,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Equipment for making ferrules Chad,that is a good question, one myself and many others before us haveasked.Here's an idea...why don't some of the guys that have various lathes (i.e.Sherline,Grizzly, ect., ect.) post a list of what exactly you need to have to makeferrules,to make ferrules and reel seats, to make ferrules, reel seats and lockinghardware.In the research I've done I have found a great variance in theamount ofaccessories that various mini lathes come with. In my opinion, there isnothing worsethan buying an expensive tool like a lathe and then finding out you have togo outand spend as much on accessories to be able to do what you thought youcouldhavedone with the lathe in the first place.Come to think of it that would make a good article for the next PowerFibersMag eh Bob?? Take people through the whole process, right from selecting alathe forwhat you want to do right up to some charts for ferrule sizes, andaccessoriesrequired for the common mini lathes to accomplish what we do. Just athoughton whatI think is a topic that seems to rear it's ugly head time after time, Shawn Amy & Chad wrote: I have a Sherline 4400 lathe and am wanting to get set up for makingferrules. What equipment will I need to do that (i.e. in addition to the3 jaw chuck, tool post, and tailstock chuck, which I have). I would beparticularly interested in hearing from those who have a Sherline andmake ferrules with it. Thank you in advance, Chad Boyd from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 08:21:18 2001 f9SELHa09248 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:21:17 -0600 28 Oct 2001 06:21:19 PST Subject: Fwd: Re: Did I Screw Up --- WILLIAM HARMS wrote: From: "WILLIAM HARMS" Subject: Re: Did I Screw UpDate: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:29:35 -0500 Tim, I am certain that the somewhat out-of-the-ordinarynode spacing will have noeffect upon the finished rod. While not optimal(though perhaps onlytheoretically), what you have will work just fine. You could also buildwith the 3x3 stagger if you like. Garrison, being fastidious and insistent upon his that did not correspond exactly with theory. Weknow, however, that inpractice, considerable leeway is allowed in thevarious methods of nodestagggering. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "timothy troester" Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 7:19 PMSubject: Re: Did I Screw Up you are fine! proceed. --- Vtbamboo@cs.com wrote: ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from Welafong@aol.com Sun Oct 28 08:32:49 2001 f9SEWma09719 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:32:48 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:32:44 - Subject: (no subject) does any one have john long e-mail address thank you from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 28 08:36:31 2001 f9SEaVa10023 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:36:31 - Subject: Re: Making it look difficult Tony,I do not think kids in North America learn too much about about the restof the world. They get taught that it is ok to be gay and lesbian butvery little about other cultures in the world.Living in Canada, my kids know very little about the rest of the world,all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp.Terry Tony Miller wrote: My last post on this didn't go through, so I'll repost.if the otherone comes through later, oh well? Terry A. wrote:In the light ofrecent events I think it would be better to give highschool students maps of the world and some some insight to differentcustoms,after all there is more to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying out loud, TerryTerry I'm NOT saying you should make it part oftheir normal studies:)) Are you saying you can't know where a placelike Diego Garcia isand not know how to make a bamboo rods at the sametime.Gee, It's a good thing they don't teach anything like woodshop inour school. (which they do) LOLThose poor kids might not know whereOhio is.:))Spoken from a father of an All(and I mean every year) honorroll student. And wow! she(notice I said she)knows how to fly fish andtie flies.How on earth could she know where Afghanistan is and keepall that other stuff in her poor little head too.LOL TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 28 08:44:11 2001 f9SEiAa10379 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:44:11 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:44:11 -0500 Subject: Re:Equipement for making seats Ok here is a list of basic tools and accessories.Lathe minimum 7x10 (would suggest biggest you could afford though)Approximate cost $375- $800A bench for the lathe $50A light for the lathe $5-10Files assorted Should have small , medium, half round, round, flat. = Drill bits, Center drills,high speed steel tool bits ,carbide tool =bits,Boring Bar.over $50 for sure) don't buy cheap stuff or you will =find out why the hard way:))Deburring tool, Blades $15-$20you will need a Arbored drill chuck $10 for the tail stock, but most =lathes come with a live center.you will need a dead center for the chuck.(make it)Measuring tools,Calipers,Micrometers,Small dial indicator and base.your large one will work ,but it is kind of big for a small lathe =and gets in the way. Good ones over $100,cheap ones under $40 your =choiceAlso metal ruler (scale)and some depth mics wouldn't hurt but not =necessary.You will need a router Cost (how much are routers today.)$50-$100A router table $40 to $80A fingernail bit, And a self made jig. Cost dependsNow you will need material (Exotic woods) and they don't come cheap$20.00 a board foot for starters.Nickel silver stock $30-$35.00 a footThe chuck on your lathe will need to be reamed out to except larger =stock on a mini lathe, tools either a reamer or a large drill bit. at =least $20I think that covers the basics.Don't forget time and labor.If your very conservative and only want to make about 5-10 seatsyou could do it for around $900.00 (recover through sales)not counting =timeIf you want to make a business out of it minimum start up will run you$1500 And really that's not bad considering the cost of things these =days.There are probably ways of doing it cheaper ,but your results may not be =as good. Hope this helps and puts some perspective on what it takes.Anyone can make reel seats(with some basic machining skill of course):)) = Threaded barrel seats take more, Much more skill(you have to know how to =single point threads on a lathe) In my opinion a Die will not due in =this caseopps I forgot a knurler that will run you $35-$80 depending upon how =nice of a knurl you want.You just have to decide if it is worth the cost,time, and skill level to = Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html accessories. suggest = could afford though)Approximate cost $375- =$800 $50A light for the lathe =$5-10 = half round, round, flat. Cost(?) also Sand paper. cheap stuff or you will find out why the hard way:))Deburring tool, Blades =$15-$20 center. chuck.(make it)Measuring = indicator and base. = is kind of big for a small lathe and gets in the way. Good ones over = ones under $40 your choiceAlso metal ruler (scale)and some depth= wouldn't hurt but not necessary.You will need a router Cost (how much = today.)$50-$100A router table $40 to$80A fingernail bit, And a self made jig. = dependsNow you will need material (Exotic = don't come cheap starters.Nickel silver stock $30-$35.00 a =footThe chuck on your lathe will need to be= large drill bit. at least $20I think that covers the basics.Don't = and labor.If your very conservative and only want= about 5-10 seatsyou could do it for around $900.00 = sales)not counting timeIf you want to make a business out of = start up will run you$1500 And really that's not bad = cost of things these days.There are probably ways of doing it = on what it takes.Anyone can make reel seats(with some= Threaded barrel seats take = skill(you have to know how to single point threads on a lathe) In my = Die will not due in this case You just have to decide if it is worth = Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jbbamboo47@yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 08:48:21 2001 f9SEmKa10657 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:48:20 - 28 Oct 2001 06:48:22 PST Subject: new e-mail address Wendy Downey , tom poli ,rodmakers list ,Janice Sanday ,janet watkins new address jbbamboo47@att.net __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Oct 28 09:05:31 2001 f9SF5Va11046 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:05:31 - Subject: Re: Let's do it again In a message dated 10/28/1 12:33:41 AM, flytyr@southshore.com writes: Tony - I still find it amusing that you can violate as much rodmaking doctrine as I did with that rod and still come out with something that works. That thing was literally spliced together from odd pieces I swept up off the floor, nothing matches. The splices are randomly spaced, and being a two strip, the sides of the rod don't have a sheath of power fibers. Go figure. from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 28 09:06:09 2001 f9SF69a11153 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:06:09 - Subject: Re: Making it look difficult Adam,that is exactly my point, don't you think it is a sevice to warn rodmakersthatit may not be all it seems?A friend watched a demonstration of a scraper plane at a fly fishing show.Theguy demonstating was proud that it took him "only" 4 hours to make asection from 6 already straightened strips and he wanted every rodmaker to usethisequipment.This very same "plane" has been touted in the past by guys on the list asbeingsuper fast!3/4hr per strip does not seem that fast to me.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: You know when people mined for a living sometimes the only ones thatmade $were those that sold mining equipment. Adam ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:59 PMSubject: Re: Making it look difficult That is what I have noticed on the list, everyone is trying to sell snake oil, not rods. Why would one want to sell a better mill when they could capture the expanding cane rod market and blow the hand planers away?If it does not work that great then you find suckers and you sell it to them, right?If you happened to come up with a better mill you would only sell one or two and the rest would be copied!Terry Adam Vigil wrote: If you want an easy way to make a living invent a better mousetrap. Orbetter yet, a better bamboo mill and rodmakers will beat a path to your door. Adam----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:10 PMSubject: Re: Making it look difficult How difficult is is sharpening a plane and flipping a strip 'til youtouch the former?It is trying to make a living out of it is where the difficulty come in. TerryAdam Vigil wrote: Shoot making a bamboo rod is complicated if you do not stray fromGarrison. But add a beveller here and wetting strips there andthentake a trip to Todd Talsma sight and all of a sudden it is not quiteso hard and becomes more pleasurable. Relativitally speaking in making fly rods in general the bamboo rod is still king in difficulty bycomparison. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Tony Miller Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Making it look difficultYeah, I would agree Rodmaking is not as complicated as somewould make it.:))And I love to make the customer think thatall my work took a master's degree to make it:)) eventhough this high school educated machinist did the workLOLThat brings up a good point that there are defiantlysecrets in the rod making business.But I think that here(thelist) is the place to put it in perspective for the newmakers who are just beginning to learn.I even thought of aprogram to help get younger high school kids get involved into the craft. Much like they do with fly fishing ingeneral.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 28 09:06:15 2001 f9SF6Ea11162 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:06:14 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:06:19 -0500 Subject: Re:Making it look difficult TerryI hear ya.:))I know there needs to be improvement in the schools. But I feel Strongly that It's my responsibility as a parent toteach every thing possible to my child as well as help other children. the norm in the US these days) I'm married 18yrsAnd I kinda feel obligated to help out those that do not have a father =figure in their life.I have received many calls from other parents thanking me for looking = However my daughter hates it because she is 13 and its not cool for your =friends to like your dad at that age) :))It's funny,even though I lecture her friends they don't dislike me and =my wife. I think children need attention as well as teaching world view =andsocial skills. So we do agree:)) there is room for world view and bamboo =making. Both important, one for education and the other for keeping thegood relations between our children and figures of authority. Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html TerryI hear ya.:))I know there needs to be improvementin = schools.My daughter and her band of friends = lecturer" But I feel Strongly that It's my = a parent toteach every thing possible to my child = help other children.My daughter has many friends with = parents(seems to be the norm in the US these days) I'm = 18yrsAnd I kinda feel obligated to help out = do not have a father figure in their life.I have received many calls from other = thanking me for looking out for their children. However my daughter hates it because= its not cool for your friends to like your dad at that age) =:))It's funny,even though I lecture her = don't dislike me and my wife. I think children need attention as well as = teaching world view and other for keeping thegood relations between our children and= authority.Figures of authority (that is how = Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from pcollin@rochester.rr.com Sun Oct 28 09:11:49 2001 f9SFBma11696 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:11:48 - f9SFAoF04355 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:10:50 - Subject: Taper Recipie Model 50 1/2 Tournament Sta. dia.0 .0525 .06610 .07915 .09920 .12025 .13830 .14935 .16040 .18245 .18950 .20455 .218 65 .23870 .24975 .26180 .27685 .29690 .31795 .377100 .380105 .380 Dimensions based on average of measurements taken across all 3 flats, =with varnish. No more than .005" of variance was found beteween the 3 =measurements. Dimensions at ferrules were interpolated based on =measurements just above and below the ferrule. Now I'm gonna get busy building this sucker. It is one of the best =casting cane rods I've ever held. Pete weightModel 50 1/2Tournament dia. bsp;.079 nbsp;.380 nbsp;.380 Dimensions based on average of = ferrule. Now I'm gonna get busy building this = It is one of the best casting cane rods I've ever held. Pete from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Oct 28 09:14:33 2001 f9SFEWa11916 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:14:33 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:10:37 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Making it look difficult Terry,I think that's more a Quebec thing, not a Canadian thing. I thought thatinHigh School we spent an awful lot of time learning about American, European,Canadian, and Ancient history (as well as World politics, geography andeconomics), didn't seem terribly useful at the time, but wish I remembered more of itnowdays!Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not think kids in North America learn too much about about the restof the world. They get taught that it is ok to be gay and lesbian butvery little about other cultures in the world.Living in Canada, my kids know very little about the rest of the world,all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp.Terry Tony Miller wrote: My last post on this didn't go through, so I'll repost.if the otherone comes through later, oh well? Terry A. wrote:In the light ofrecent events I think it would be better to give highschool students maps of the world and some some insight to differentcustoms,after all there is more to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying out loud, TerryTerry I'm NOT saying you should make it part oftheir normal studies:)) Are you saying you can't know where a placelike Diego Garcia isand not know how to make a bamboo rods at the sametime.Gee, It's a good thing they don't teach anything like woodshop inour school. (which they do) LOLThose poor kids might not know whereOhio is.:))Spoken from a father of an All(and I mean every year) honorroll student. And wow! she(notice I said she)knows how to fly fish andtie flies.How on earth could she know where Afghanistan is and keepall that other stuff in her poor little head too.LOL TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from jbbamboo47@yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 09:18:36 2001 f9SFIZa12147 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:18:35 - 28 Oct 2001 07:18:42 PST Subject: new e-mail Wendy Downey , tom poli ,rodmakers list ,Janice Sanday ,janet watkins new e-mail is jbbamboo47@world.att.net. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sun Oct 28 09:22:37 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) f9SFMba12440 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:22:37 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:22:43 -0600 Subject: Danger: Delete to Avoid a Non-Bamboo Respons to RE: Making it loo k difficult Terry - Well I've read some long books on Canadian history but you're right aboutmost of our kids here in the US. My daughters (who I hope and believe areexceptions) had a chance to go to Israel last year. One of their classmates(a senior in college) said she has some friends in Brazil and asked ifIsrael was anywhere near there. My daughter told her they share a longborder. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Making it look difficult Tony,I do not think kids in North America learn too much about about the restof the world. They get taught that it is ok to be gay and lesbian butvery little about other cultures in the world.Living in Canada, my kids know very little about the rest of the world,all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp.Terry Tony Miller wrote: My last post on this didn't go through, so I'll repost.if the otherone comes through later, oh well? Terry A. wrote:In the light ofrecent events I think it would be better to give highschool students maps of the world and some some insight to differentcustoms,after all there is more to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying out loud, TerryTerry I'm NOT saying you should make it part oftheir normal studies:)) Are you saying you can't know where a placelike Diego Garcia isand not know how to make a bamboo rods at the sametime.Gee, It's a good thing they don't teach anything like woodshop inour school. (which they do) LOLThose poor kids might not know whereOhio is.:))Spoken from a father of an All(and I mean every year) honorroll student. And wow! she(notice I said she)knows how to fly fish andtie flies.How on earth could she know where Afghanistan is and keepall that other stuff in her poor little head too.LOL TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 09:27:04 2001 f9SFR3a12745 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:27:03 - ([209.178.134.204] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xrq4-0002iW-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:27:05 -0800 Subject: John from Phoneix and Kevin from Mission Viejo, Bishop Gathering Guys, We did not get a chance to swap email addresses. Contact me Adam Vigil Guys, We did not get a chance to swap email = Contact me AdamVigil from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 28 09:35:07 2001 f9SFZ7a13037 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:35:07 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:35:11 -0500 Subject: Re:Making it look difficult NRM/delete if you want Yes, Shawn I think your right.We had the information given to us, it was what we did with it that =mattered.I loved history, but as you can tell from my terrible spelling (on the =list) I hated English:))LOLAnd that's point. My parents divorced when I was 5They were more concerned about fighting with each other than If I could =spell correctly. My father never took me Fishing. I know AWWW! poor Tony =LOL LOL :))But my point is I have taken my Daughter (honor roll student)fishing.is it possible there is a connection between the two.I think so:))Can you tell I'm an extremely proud parent? Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Yes, Shawn I think your =right.We had the information given to us, it = did with it that mattered.I loved history, but as you can tell = And that's point. My parents divorced = was 5They were more concerned aboutfighting = other than If I could spell correctly. My father never took me Fishing. = AWWW! poor Tony LOL LOL :)) = (honor roll student)fishing.is it possible there is a connection = two.I think so:)) parent?best regards to Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from bob@downandacross.com Sun Oct 28 09:35:22 2001 f9SFZLa13109 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:35:21 - Subject: RE: Danger: Delete to Avoid a Non-Bamboo Respons to RE: Making itlook difficult Barry:I teach Language Arts in the City of Buffalo Public Schools. Three years agoI worked at a school that was within 2 minutes of the Peace Bridge toCanada. The kids could not identify Canada on the map and most had neverbeen there. The saddest thing is that in my mind that was the least of myworries about them or their education.Best regards,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Danger: Delete to Avoid a Non-Bamboo Respons to RE: Making itlook difficult Terry - Well I've read some long books on Canadian history but you're right aboutmost of our kids here in the US. My daughters (who I hope and believe areexceptions) had a chance to go to Israel last year. One of their classmates(a senior in college) said she has some friends in Brazil and asked if Israel was anywhere near there. My daughter told her they share a longborder. Barry from piscator@macatawa.org Sun Oct 28 09:35:38 2001 f9SFZba13183 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:35:37 - Subject: Re: Trim Wraps Someone probably has a real good reason that this won't work but. . . . I wet the tipping thread with distilled water, do the tipping, and leaveabout 1.5" of thread hanging on both ends of the wrap after snuggingeverything up. Then (I'm sure this is heresy), when I'm done with an entiresection I wet ALL the wraps with distilled water and let it dry overnight.It seems to shrink and really tightens the wraps up. Then I amke any finaladjustments needed, trim the tags, singe (if needed) and varnish the wraps(I use a toothpick now. Thanks Wayne!) Brian from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 28 09:39:16 2001 f9SFdFa13632 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:39:16 - Subject: Re: Snake oil So what you suggest is, is that every one pools their knowledge that theyhavegained by experience and hard work for the use of all for free? Is that thenewAmerican way? I seem to remember that experiments like this have a habitoffailing?It is easy to make cane rods on a part time level. Making them professionallywithout being potless is very difficult with the "off the shelf" equiment, mostof which seems very limited in accuracy for the price, and still require lots ofstraightening to be workable.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Wait a minute you guys! Stop giving away the secrets of snake oil. I havedone a lot of research on snake oil but I will not share it with you becausesomeone may steal it. I did not do all that work on snake oils only to havesome bastard steal from me and call it there own. For heaven sakes howhardis it to make snake oil. It is not rocket science. I developed my own snakeoil press and it is one of a kind. I will not tell you anything about itbecause you might steal it. And anyone else making snake oil presses are abunch of crooks selling crap! If they really did have a great snake oilpress they would corner the snake oil market. And for those still usingtheir hands to get snake oil YOU ARE CRAZY. No one can make a livingprofessionally squeezing snakes by hand. You would only be able to squeezeoil from maybe one or two snakes a month. And for those just starting tosqueeze snakes for oil you have a lot of nerve to charge the same for yoursnake oil as I do. And dont you dare start teaching kids snake squeezingthat is more competition I mean the have better things to learn. YOU AREALLWRONG AND I AM RIGHT...SO THERE! Adam Vigil(the above posting was sarcasm) from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 28 09:44:34 2001 f9SFiXa14015 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:44:33 - Subject: Re: Making it look difficult NRM/delete if you want Tony,blame your parents, this is another North American trick, it works everytime.Terry Tony Miller wrote: Yes, Shawn I think your right.We had the information given to us, itwas what we did with it that mattered.I loved history, but as you cantell from my terrible spelling (on the list) I hated English:))LOLAndthat's point. My parents divorced when I was 5They were more concernedabout fighting with each other than If I could spell correctly. Myfather never took me Fishing. I know AWWW! poor Tony LOL LOL :))But mypoint is I have taken my Daughter (honor roll student)fishing.is itpossible there is a connection between the two.I think so:))Can youtell I'm an extremely proud parent?best regards toallTonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 09:51:36 2001 f9SFpZa14355 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:51:35 - 28 Oct 2001 07:51:41 PST Subject: Re: Snake oil --- "T. Ackland" wrote: So what you suggest is, is that every one pools their knowledge that they havegained by experience and hard work for the use of gee! maybe i'm missing something here but i thoughtthat was the purpose of the list. i don't think the ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 10:05:53 2001 f9SG5qa14885 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:05:52 - ([209.178.134.204] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xsRe-0004P0-00; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:05:54 -0800 Subject: Re: Snake oil Rodmaking? I am not talking about rodmaking I am talking about SNAKE OIL. Why wouldanyone be on a rodmakes list want to share information on rodmaking? Thatmakes no sense. I thought this list was for my own personnel amusement. News Flash, This list is for sharing information on rodmaking, SHARINGINFORMATION. Maybe some people need to understand what they signed up for joining thislist. Maybe they should teach that is school. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Snake oil So what you suggest is, is that every one pools their knowledge that they have gained by experience and hard work for the use of all for free? Is that the new American way? I seem to remember that experiments like this have a habit of failing?It is easy to make cane rods on a part time level. Making them professionally without being potless is very difficult with the "off the shelf" equiment, most of which seems very limited in accuracy for the price, and still require lots of straightening to be workable.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Wait a minute you guys! Stop giving away the secrets of snake oil. I have done a lot of research on snake oil but I will not share it with you because someone may steal it. I did not do all that work on snake oils only to have some bastard steal from me and call it there own. For heaven sakes how hard is it to make snake oil. It is not rocket science. I developed my own snake oil press and it is one of a kind. I will not tell you anything about itbecause you might steal it. And anyone else making snake oil presses are a bunch of crooks selling crap! If they really did have a great snake oilpress they would corner the snake oil market. And for those still usingtheir hands to get snake oil YOU ARE CRAZY. No one can make a livingprofessionally squeezing snakes by hand. You would only be able to squeeze oil from maybe one or two snakes a month. And for those just startingtosqueeze snakes for oil you have a lot of nerve to charge the same for your snake oil as I do. And dont you dare start teaching kids snake squeezing that is more competition I mean the have better things to learn. YOU ARE ALL WRONG AND I AM RIGHT...SO THERE! Adam Vigil(the above posting was sarcasm) from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 28 10:16:28 2001 f9SGGRa15289 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:16:27 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:16:31 -0500 Subject: Re: NRM/look difficult/delete if you want Dang straight! I blame the parents.Your responsible for those kids till they turn 18.To think otherwise in my opinion is irresponsible to the max.I've heard too often: I can't control my kids and kids will be kids they just are too lazy to give crap.Then they cry when the kid turns out bad and say "it's not my fault!"The heck it ain't ! Did you think the parenting stopped after your wife =gave birth? and do you think parenting is just sitting back and waiting =to see if you have a Nobel prize winner or a Ted Kosinski.Not too mention by law your responsible for their actions till 18It's not enough to just give them money when they cry and scold them So who do you blame, a child that has not been taught right from wrong.They are not born educated. You have to guide and teach.It's your job to provide them with life & social skills,not the =schools,their job is education.There are always exceptions to anything, but those are exceptions and =not supposed to be the norm.Am I wrong here ?are parents just supposed to look sit back and do =nothing?Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Dang straight! I blame the =parents.Your responsible for those kids till = 18.To think otherwise in my opinion is = to the max.I've heard too often: I can't control = kids will be kids responsible andthey just are too lazy to give =crap.Then they cry when the kid turns out = "it's not my fault!"The heck it ain't ! Did you think the = stopped after your wife gave birth? and do you think parenting is just = Kosinski.Not too mention by law your responsible= actions till 18It's not enough to just give them money= cry and scold themwhen they are So who do you blame, a child that has = taught right from wrong.They are not born educated. You haveto = teach.It's your job to provide them with life = social skills,not the schools,their job is education.There are always exceptions to = are exceptions and not supposed to be the norm. just = look sit back and do nothing?Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 10:26:49 2001 f9SGQma16004 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:26:48 - 28 Oct 2001 08:26:55 PST Subject: Re: Snake oil my concern is that we don't all turn into angryresentful,bitter sounding old men. someone could starta new list for that. we could call that list snakeoil. timothy --- Adam Vigil wrote: Rodmaking? I am not talking about rodmaking I am talking aboutSNAKE OIL. Why wouldanyone be on a rodmakes list want to shareinformation on rodmaking? Thatmakes no sense. I thought this list was for my ownpersonnel amusement. News Flash, This list is for sharing information onrodmaking, SHARINGINFORMATION. Maybe some people need to understand what theysigned up for joining thislist. Maybe they should teach that is school. Adam ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:41 AMSubject: Re: Snake oil So what you suggest is, is that every one pools their knowledge that theyhave gained by experience and hard work for the use of all for free? Is thatthe new American way? I seem to remember that experiments like this have a habitof failing?It is easy to make cane rods on a part time level. Making themprofessionally without being potless is very difficult with the "off the shelf" equiment,most of which seems very limited in accuracy for the price, and still requirelots of straightening to be workable.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Wait a minute you guys! Stop giving away the secrets of snake oil. Ihave done a lot of research on snake oil but I will not share it with youbecause someone may steal it. I did not do all that work on snake oils only tohave some bastard steal from me and call it there own. For heaven sakes howhard is it to make snake oil. It is not rocket science. I developed my ownsnake oil press and it is one of a kind. I will not tell you anything about it because you might steal it. And anyone else making snake oil presses area bunch of crooks selling crap! If they really did have a great snake oil press they would corner the snake oil market. And for those still using their hands to get snake oil YOU ARE CRAZY. No one can make a living professionally squeezing snakes by hand. You would only be able tosqueeze oil from maybe one or two snakes a month. And squeeze snakes for oil you have a lot of nerve to charge the same foryour snake oil as I do. And dont you dare start teaching kids snakesqueezing that is more competition I mean the have better things to learn. YOU AREALL WRONG AND I AM RIGHT...SO THERE! Adam Vigil(the above posting was sarcasm) ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun Oct 28 11:00:19 2001 f9SH0Ja17238 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:00:19 - Subject: Re: Making it look difficult You think the kids of N. America are the only ones who have not learnedabout history. Ask any German kid what they have been taught about W.W.II andwhat the Nazis did and about the camps and they will tell you they know nothing and learned nothing about this time. I had a professor last year who was German and her and I got to be pretty good friends since I was of German descent and we talked about this. She told me she knew nothing of it until she came to America and then she was shocked. She also told me her grandfather was in the Wermacht (regular German army) and that he wouldsay nothing about the war. Bret You think the kids of N.America are the only ones who have not learned about history. Ask anyGerman kid what they have been taught about W.W.II and what the Nazis didand about the camps and they will tell you they know nothing and learned and her and I got to be pretty good friends since I was of German descentand we talked about this. She told me she knew nothing of it until she cameto America and then she was shocked. She also told me her grandfather wasin the Wermacht (regular German army) and that he would say nothing about Bret from hartzell@easystreet.com Sun Oct 28 12:27:29 2001 f9SIRSa18757 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:27:29 - Subject: Re: Trim Wraps Jeff,In addition to all the tips that have been given, I add the following.If the trim wrap is to be of a darker color than the guide wrap, get apermanent marker pen and color the thread you are using for the guide afteryou have finished the guide wrap. Continue to wrap and end the wrap as usualpulling the thread under with a loop. The only problem with this method isthat the color of the trim wrap will show if the loop thread is put in whilestill wrapping the guide. One way to avoid this is to color only the amountof thread that goes under the trim when pulled through. It is well to makesure the marker ink has dried before starting the trim wrap. All this appliesif you wrap from guide loop to end of foot. If you are wrapping from end offoot to loop it is easier.Another trick is to wet the trim thread with water or spit or varnish orcolor preservative. This really helps. I prefer spit. Good luckEd Jeff Ferguson wrote: Does anyone have any hints or techniques they can share for adding trimwraps? I'm struggling with trying to add them to guide wraps, and nothaving a lot of success (and getting very frustrated!). Surely there's aneasier way.... from Lazybee45@aol.com Sun Oct 28 12:37:11 2001 f9SIbBa19268 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:37:11 - Subject: Re: Snake oil In a message dated 10/28/01 11:32:31 AM Central Standard Time, hexagon@odyssee.net writes: Soooooo, you are a part of this list, that is set up TO share knowlege for what reason? I am confused!mark from ajthramer@hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 13:21:21 2001 f9SJLKa20543 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:21:20 - Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:21:17 -0800 Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:21:17 GMT rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Trim Wraps FILETIME=[B7D9D360:01C15FE5] Thats what we did with model airplanes when we were still using silk to cover them, it tightened the covering right up.A.J. From: "Brian Creek" Subject: Re: Trim WrapsDate: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:37:22 -0500 Someone probably has a real good reason that this won't work but. . . . I wet the tipping thread with distilled water, do the tipping, and leaveabout 1.5" of thread hanging on both ends of the wrap after snuggingeverything up. Then (I'm sure this is heresy), when I'm done with an entiresection I wet ALL the wraps with distilled water and let it dry overnight.It seems to shrink and really tightens the wraps up. Then I amke any finaladjustments needed, trim the tags, singe (if needed) and varnish the wraps(I use a toothpick now. Thanks Wayne!) Brian _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from dpvbkjs@somtel.com Sun Oct 28 13:25:59 2001 f9SJPwa20812 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:25:59 - Subject: Perfectionist taper varients needed All, Ron Barch is looking for all of the variations in the taper for the PaulYoung Perfectionist. He asked us to post this (he's off list at themoment) and wonders if anyone has a taper other than the one in the theMaurer/Elser book, could he or she e-mail him at: "Ronald J. Barch" Kat and David from oandc@email.msn.com Sun Oct 28 14:51:02 2001 f9SKp1a23289 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:51:01 - Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:50:19 -0800 Subject: Fw: Snake oil FILETIME=[27C54A90:01C15FF2] Adam,I'm sure I speak for most, if not all, of the aspiring makers out there whenI express my sincere thanks to you and all the others on the list whounselfishly share your knowledge so that others may share in thesatisfaction of this wonderful craft. To any on the list who may feel thatthis sharing of knowledge poses a threat to their personal success as arodmaker let me say this. We are not children to be warned of the perils ofembarking on a career as a professional rodmaker. Those who wish to willattempt it regardless of your concerns and will succeed or fail based ontheir own abilities. There is already far to much information available toprevent it. Those that possess the skills and intelligence and persistenceto succeed will. Most of us have no wish to make it a career. At most wewould sell a few rods in an attempt to support our addiction. We also knowthat few, if any, of the most skilled makers are giving us ALL of theirsecrets. Nor do I believe we expect them to. However, you all know thatthere is a considerable learning period even if we know the best methods. Inaddition, just as with any craft, some will always be more gifted inapplication than others. Try to remember that we ASPIRE to the excellencedemonstrated by the skilled makers and which few us will achieve for a goodmany years. Some not at all. If you don't wish to make a contribution,don't. While a contribution would generate respect and goodwill, lack of onewill accomplish nothing at all. Inappropriate responses aimed at repressingknowledge are obvious and merely generate lack of respect. Yourprotestations would merely seem to demonstrate personal fears andsmallness.Again, for the vast majority of experienced makers on the list, let mecommend you. Your generosity of spirit does credit to you and your craft.Your skills provide the goals, your knowledge the path, but it is your giftof these that I most respect and aspire to. You are each held in warm regardand will leave behind you a legacy that will inspire future generations ofrodmakers. Your craft will not be lost or forgotten. Thank you for beingthere for all of us.Wayne K.----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Snake oil Rodmaking? I am not talking about rodmaking I am talking about SNAKE OIL. Why wouldanyone be on a rodmakes list want to share information on rodmaking?Thatmakes no sense. I thought this list was for my own personnel amusement. News Flash, This list is for sharing information on rodmaking, SHARINGINFORMATION. Maybe some people need to understand what they signed up for joining thislist. Maybe they should teach that is school. Adam ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:41 AMSubject: Re: Snake oil So what you suggest is, is that every one pools their knowledge that they have gained by experience and hard work for the use of all for free? Is that the new American way? I seem to remember that experiments like this have ahabit of failing?It is easy to make cane rods on a part time level. Making them professionally without being potless is very difficult with the "off the shelf" equiment, most of which seems very limited in accuracy for the price, and still require lots of straightening to be workable.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Wait a minute you guys! Stop giving away the secrets of snake oil. I have done a lot of research on snake oil but I will not share it with you because someone may steal it. I did not do all that work on snake oils only to have some bastard steal from me and call it there own. For heaven sakeshow hard is it to make snake oil. It is not rocket science. I developed my own snake oil press and it is one of a kind. I will not tell you anything about it because you might steal it. And anyone else making snake oil presses are a bunch of crooks selling crap! If they really did have a great snake oil press they would corner the snake oil market. And for those still using their hands to get snake oil YOU ARE CRAZY. No one can make a livingprofessionally squeezing snakes by hand. You would only be able to squeeze oil from maybe one or two snakes a month. And for those just starting to squeeze snakes for oil you have a lot of nerve to charge the same for your snake oil as I do. And dont you dare start teaching kids snake squeezing that is more competition I mean the have better things to learn. YOU ARE ALL WRONG AND I AM RIGHT...SO THERE! Adam Vigil(the above posting was sarcasm) ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 from jim_hecht@hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 15:18:32 2001 f9SLIVa24541 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:18:31 - Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:18:33 -0800 Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:18:33 GMT Subject: Rodmaking supplies for trade FILETIME=[19479640:01C15FF6] I have a couple of nice NS slide band reel seats (new from commercial suppliers) I would like to trade for other rodbuilding supplies of roughly equal value (i.e., highest grade cork rings, Snake Brand guides, stripping guides, NS tubing, burl woods, etc.). Please contact me off list for details. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from DNHayashida@aol.com Sun Oct 28 15:36:05 2001 f9SLa4a25324 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:36:04 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:36:09 - Subject: Blade Sharpening with diamond compound Okay, I know someone on this list sharpens their plane blades with diamond compound on a felt wheel. I just tried it, and it beats a waterstone hands down. No contest, Game over! I don't know what took me so long to try it - I mean my other hobby is jewelry making and I have all the equipment to do it. I had so many blades to sharpen with all the bench planes I got on eBay that I finally set up my gemstone polishing machines to be able to handle the plane blades. The waterstones are still useful to start the sharpening but the diamond compound on a felt wheel puts on an edge that has to be seen to be believed. Try it!Darryl Hayashida Okay, I know someone on this list sharpens their plane blades withdiamond compound on a felt wheel. I just tried it, and it beats a waterstonehands down. No contest, Game over! I don't know what took me so long to tryit - I mean my other hobby is jewelry making and I have all the equipment todo it. I had so many blades to sharpen with all the bench planes I got on eBaythat I finally set up my gemstone polishing machines to be able to handle theplane blades. The waterstones are still useful to start the sharpening but thediamond compound on a felt wheel puts on an edge that has to be seen to bebelieved. Try it!Darryl Hayashida from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 16:17:48 2001 f9SMHma27027 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:17:48 - ([209.178.134.220] helo=g2t8c9) id 15xyFd-0003hx-00; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:17:53 -0800 Subject: Re: Blade Sharpening with diamond compound Thanks Darryl, I am going to have to try that. Adam Subject: Blade Sharpening with diamond compound Okay, I know someone on this list sharpens their plane blades with =diamond compound on a felt wheel. I just tried it, and it beats a =waterstone hands down. No contest, Game over! I don't know what took me =so long to try it - I mean my other hobby is jewelry making and I have =all the equipment to do it. I had so many blades to sharpen with all the =bench planes I got on eBay that I finally set up my gemstone polishing =machines to be able to handle the plane blades. The waterstones are =still useful to start the sharpening but the diamond compound on a felt = Thanks Darryl, I am going to have to try =that. Adam ----- Original Message ----- DNHayashida@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 = PMSubject: Blade Sharpening with = compound I know someone on this list sharpens their plane blades with diamond = on a felt wheel. I just tried it, and it beats a waterstone hands = contest, Game over! I don't know what took me so long to try it - I = other hobby is jewelry making and I have all the equipment to do it. I = many blades to sharpen with all the bench planes I got on eBay that I = set up my gemstone polishing machines to be able to handle the plane = The waterstones are still useful to start the sharpening but the = compound on a felt wheel puts on an edge that has to be seen to be = Try it! Darryl Hayashida from dcurtis@satx.rr.com Sun Oct 28 16:48:40 2001 f9SMmda28456 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:48:39 - f9SN31xs014284 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:03:01 -0600 Subject: SRG 2001 I posted the photos I took at the SRG 2001 on my new website. Just =click and download the three files that are zipped. Unzip them and take =a look. Each file is about 3-4 megs. Let me know what you think. Darrin Curtis I posted the photos I took at the SRG = Darrin =Curtis from dcurtis@satx.rr.com Sun Oct 28 16:49:20 2001 f9SMnJa28607 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:49:19 - f9SN0NWt026213; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:00:23 -0600 Subject: Re: SRG 2001 My URL is http://geocities.com/beehoghog/ Sorry got key happy. Darrin Subject: SRG 2001 I posted the photos I took at the SRG 2001 on my new website. Just =click and download the three files that are zipped. Unzip them and take =a look. Each file is about 3-4 megs. Let me know what you think. Darrin Curtis My URL is http://geocities.com/beehoghog/ Sorry got key happy. Darrin ----- Original Message ----- Curtis Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 = PMSubject: SRG 2001 I posted the photos I took at the SRG = Curtis from briansr@point-net.com Sun Oct 28 17:09:22 2001 f9SN9La29794 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:09:21 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:31:03 -0500 Subject: Fw: Atlas parts Hi GangI need front and rear bearings for an Atlas lathe.Only markings on itare10D-24CCould anyone put me on the right track as to where and if these parts areavailable?TIA Brian from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Sun Oct 28 17:21:35 2001 f9SNLYa00461 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:21:34 - by direct-pest.com [208.27.26.103] for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:20:31 -0500 Subject: Rod Turner Does anyone have pictures or plans for a multi-section rod turner. I'mtired of sitting and varnishing the wraps on one section at a time. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". from cw@vanion.com Sun Oct 28 18:25:30 2001 f9T0PTa03342 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:25:29 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:30:15 - Subject: 3M's Perfect-it/Finesse-it Thought I'd try again, others interested too. Need part or order numbers = the Perfect-it name; looking for correct product. Thanks in advance, =Chad Thought I'd try again, others = Need part or order numbers for 3M's Perfect-it & Finess it polish. = several compounds under the Perfect-it name; looking for correct = in advance, Chad from boyko@peoplepc.com Sun Oct 28 18:25:54 2001 f9T0Pra03387 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:25:53 - 0800 -0800 Subject: All the snake oil junk I have only been in this bamboo rod building for a short time, but =really enjoy learning all this and gathering all this information from =different people and trying to make a bamboo rod in the end. This Adam =Virgil guy is really sounding silly. If he has so may big secret ideas =and ways of doing things, just stay off the web site and yhou will not =have to worry about me learning any thing from you, what every it is you =are scared I will learn from you birddog = rod building for a short time, but really enjoy learning all this and = all this information from different people and trying to make a bamboo = may big secret ideas and ways of doing things, just stay off the web = yhou will not have to worry about me learning any thing from you, what = birddog from bob@downandacross.com Sun Oct 28 18:27:15 2001 f9T0REa03493 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:27:15 - , Subject: RE: Rod Turner Brian Creek's great turner is in Power Fibers, I think January 2001. -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Rod Turner Does anyone have pictures or plans for a multi-section rod turner. I'mtired of sitting and varnishing the wraps on one section at a time. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 28 19:08:17 2001 f9T18Fa05510 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:08:15 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:08:17 -0500 Subject: Re: 3m products I don't use it, but I thought I'd try to look it up for you.:)) And search products.It might get you closer.:)) Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Chad it up for you.:))Try the 3m site at : www.3m.com And search products.It might get you =closer.:))Hope this helps you out. Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 28 19:41:28 2001 f9T1fQa07023 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:41:26 - Subject: Re: Making it look difficult That's a bit harsh on Canada Terry, I mean it's had an interesting if dark history I learned in school re. the squabbling between England and France, then Canada and the US and it's Northern state's policies in the early days, then Canada and the French again in Quebec (nobody gets along with the French), the train lines running across the country in response to the US and it's policies, the Hudsons Bay Co, trappers, indians, Captn Cook, past and present fisheries, natural history etc.Easily as interesting as the US. Tony At 09:37 AM 10/28/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,I do not think kids in North America learn too much about about the restof the world. They get taught that it is ok to be gay and lesbian butvery little about other cultures in the world.Living in Canada, my kids know very little about the rest of the world,all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp.Terry Tony Miller wrote: My last post on this didn't go through, so I'll repost.if the otherone comes through later, oh well? Terry A. wrote:In the light ofrecent events I think it would be better to give highschool students maps of the world and some some insight to differentcustoms,after all there is more to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying out loud, TerryTerry I'm NOT saying you should make it part oftheir normal studies:)) Are you saying you can't know where a placelike Diego Garcia isand not know how to make a bamboo rods at the sametime.Gee, It's a good thing they don't teach anything like woodshop inour school. (which they do) LOLThose poor kids might not know whereOhio is.:))Spoken from a father of an All(and I mean every year) honorroll student. And wow! she(notice I said she)knows how to fly fish andtie flies.How on earth could she know where Afghanistan is and keepall that other stuff in her poor little head too.LOL TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 28 19:41:29 2001 f9T1fRa07034 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:41:27 - Subject: Re: Danger: Delete to Avoid a Non-Bamboo Respons to RE: Makingit loo k difficult Yeah, well at least you don't get told you speak English quite well for somebody from somewhere near Germany (Austria).One of these even told me I speak a lot like that Hogan person and if I had an Australian English teacher. Tony At 09:22 AM 10/28/01 -0600, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Terry - Well I've read some long books on Canadian history but you're right aboutmost of our kids here in the US. My daughters (who I hope and believe areexceptions) had a chance to go to Israel last year. One of their classmates(a senior in college) said she has some friends in Brazil and asked ifIsrael was anywhere near there. My daughter told her they share a longborder. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 8:38 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Making it look difficult Tony,I do not think kids in North America learn too much about about the restof the world. They get taught that it is ok to be gay and lesbian butvery little about other cultures in the world.Living in Canada, my kids know very little about the rest of the world,all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp.Terry Tony Miller wrote: My last post on this didn't go through, so I'll repost.if the otherone comes through later, oh well? Terry A. wrote:In the light ofrecent events I think it would be better to give highschool students maps of the world and some some insight to differentcustoms,after all there is more to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying out loud, TerryTerry I'm NOT saying you should make it part oftheir normal studies:)) Are you saying you can't know where a placelike Diego Garcia isand not know how to make a bamboo rods at the sametime.Gee, It's a good thing they don't teach anything like woodshop inour school. (which they do) LOLThose poor kids might not know whereOhio is.:))Spoken from a father of an All(and I mean every year) honorroll student. And wow! she(notice I said she)knows how to fly fish andtie flies.How on earth could she know where Afghanistan is and keepall that other stuff in her poor little head too.LOL TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 28 19:41:30 2001 f9T1fTa07046 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:41:29 - Subject: Re: Making it look difficult NRM/delete if you want Better yet, sue 'em! [:-)] Tony At 10:45 AM 10/28/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,blame your parents, this is another North American trick, it works everytime.Terry Tony Miller wrote: Yes, Shawn I think your right.We had the information given to us, itwas what we did with it that mattered.I loved history, but as you cantell from my terrible spelling (on the list) I hated English:))LOLAndthat's point. My parents divorced when I was 5They were more concernedabout fighting with each other than If I could spell correctly. Myfather never took me Fishing. I know AWWW! poor Tony LOL LOL :))Butmypoint is I have taken my Daughter (honor roll student)fishing.is itpossible there is a connection between the two.I think so:))Can youtell I'm an extremely proud parent?best regards toallTonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 28 19:41:33 2001 f9T1fWa07057 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:41:32 - Subject: Re: Snake oil Not all all. If you want to share any info you can, if you don't nobody will force you.If you know it all and help that's great but then you need to be aware nobody really knows it all.If you know it all but your comments are not helpful there is no reason to be here that is related to rodmaking especially as nobody really knows it all. That leaves entertainment.Personally I think that's fine. I've made the observation here a few time this list reminds me of a pub that is frequented by like minded people. There are pubs just like that all over the place in the physical world and the one that springs to mind most often is one in a town called Boonah and the pub is the Dugandan.This pub is at the bottom of a crag I climbed every weekend when I was in my teens and into rockclimbing. Every afternoon all the climbers would speed to the pub and we'd all basically get pissed (legal drinking age is 18 but I looked old for my age) and drive home well over limit but in the mean time the talk would ebb and flow revolving around climbing. If all the talk was EVER only about climbing I doubt anybody would have bothered and just gone straight home, that would have been safer for everybody on the roads and you would keep your drivers lic a lot longer too but every now and again like radar everybody would hear the term "new route", then you could hear a pin drop. If anybody mentioned a stuck friend (not some-one you climb with but a mechanical belay device worth about $50 you never had enough of) or out of reach piton etc then everybody was back in their cars to the crag to try to retrieve it. Just like an abandoned ship at sea abandoned climbing hardware was there for taking. It was always worth going even if you know you'd be too late getting the hardware because there was often a stouch over it and you really didn't want to miss that especially after a few beers, occasionally you were even one of the participants. Climbing _can_ be a contact sport [:-)] A poet from the early 20th century by the name of Banjo Patterson (who wrote the poem I have a snippet of as my sig right now) wrote about the Dugandan pub, it was/is that good. There is a cricket pitch directly across from it and the square leg umpire would ump from the pub steps normally with a beer in hand. I know that means nothing if you don't know cricket but belive me when I tell you that's about as good as life gets if you're an umpire. Imagine a baseball ump luxuriating on a camp chair "Strike 1, slurrrrrp", strike 2, slurrrrrrrrrrp", "strike 1 , slurrrrrrrrrrrrp, burrrrrp". Obviously no games beyond club cricket were umpired this way.This place should be on all the must see tourist maps. There is a cricket ball in a beer jug on the bar that is never moved. It's told and I sort of believe it that it's there as a result of a terrific knock from a batsman. The ball was supposed to have hit a step, gone through the door describing a very high parabola and dropped into the jug on the bar. I know it's very JKF magic bullet but it's supposed to be true. What I find hard to understand is what they did for a ball after that. Cricket isn't like baseball, the same ball is supposed to be used the whole innings, it's a tactical part of the game.We took an American friend to a game where he actually caught the ball. He got really excited about it then really angry because he had to give it back, all he could talk about for days [:-)] Did you like the climb? Yeah, but what the @@@k do they want the ball back for?Want a beer? Yeah but I should have knocked that @@@@@g umpires' teethdown his @@@@@@g throat.See you next time you make it here. Yeah well I'll have to bring my own @@@@@@g ball and bat will I?See ya. Yeah, they say "come on down, we'll put a shrimp on the barbie, yeah sure but what about the @@@@@@g balls you catch, hunh what aboutthat? Tony At 01:36 PM 10/28/01 -0500, Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/28/01 11:32:31 AM Central Standard Time,hexagon@odyssee.net writes: havegained by experience and hard work for the use of all for free? Is that thenewAmerican way? I seem to remember that experiments like this have a habitoffailing? >> Soooooo, you are a part of this list, that is set up TO share knowlege forwhat reason? I am confused!mark /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 28 19:41:34 2001 f9T1fXa07064 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:41:33 - Subject: Re: Blade Sharpening with diamond compound I can remember mentioning it after seeing Jerry Young use it on a leather wheel. Amazing. Mirror finish in no time and horrifyingly sharp (a lot more scary than scary sharp) Tony At 04:36 PM 10/28/01 -0500, DNHayashida@aol.com wrote: Okay, I know someone on this list sharpens their plane blades with diamond compound on a felt wheel. I just tried it, and it beats a waterstone hands down. No contest, Game over! I don't know what took me so long to try it - I mean my other hobby is jewelry making and I have all the equipment to do it. I had so many blades to sharpen with all the bench planes I got on eBay that I finally set up my gemstone polishing machines to be able to handle the plane blades. The waterstones are still useful to start the sharpening but the diamond compound on a felt wheel puts on an edge that has to be seen to be believed. Try it!Darryl Hayashida /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from channer@frontier.net Sun Oct 28 19:55:08 2001 f9T1t7a08671 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:55:07 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:00:35 - Subject: Re: 3M's Perfect-it/Finesse-it Chad;You want the Perfect-It II Rubbing Compound #39002 and Finesse-It IIMachine Polish #39003.John chad wigham wrote: Thought I'd try again, others interested too. Need part or ordernumbers for 3M's Perfect-it & Finess it polish. 3M makes severalcompounds under the Perfect-it name; looking for correct product.Thanks in advance, Chad from channer@frontier.net Sun Oct 28 19:58:02 2001 f9T1w2a08918 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:58:02 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:03:37 - Subject: Re: Rod Turner Why bother turning the rod when you varnish the wraps??? I find this sounneccessary that I don't even own a turning contraption of any kind,just varnish the wraps and hang the thing up to dry.jmhojohn Downandacross Rod Company wrote: Brian Creek's great turner is in Power Fibers, I think January 2001. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 6:20 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Rod Turner Does anyone have pictures or plans for a multi-section rod turner. I'mtired of sitting and varnishing the wraps on one section at a time. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 28 19:58:45 2001 f9T1wia09062 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:58:44 - rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Snake oil Not enough knowledge out there for you already?How much extra do you need to make a bloody fishing pole? Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/28/01 11:32:31 AM Central Standard Time,hexagon@odyssee.net writes: havegained by experience and hard work for the use of all for free? Is that thenewAmerican way? I seem to remember that experiments like this have a habitoffailing? >> Soooooo, you are a part of this list, that is set up TO share knowlege forwhat reason? I am confused!mark from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 28 20:08:28 2001 f9T28Sa09817 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:08:28 - Subject: Re: NRM/look difficult/delete if you want Part of growing up is learning from ones mistakes and you cannot forceyour kids into choices based on your experience, it doesn't like that,not anymore.Terry Tony Miller wrote: Dang straight! I blame the parents.Your responsible for those kidstill they turn 18.To think otherwise in my opinion is irresponsible tothe max.I've heard too often: I can't control my kids and kids will bekidsby parents who can't handle the fact that they are responsibleandthey just are too lazy to give crap.Then they cry when the kidturns out bad and say "it's not my fault!"The heck it ain't ! Did youthink the parenting stopped after your wife gave birth? and do youthink parenting is just sitting back and waiting to see if you have aNobel prize winner or a Ted Kosinski.Not too mention by law yourresponsible for their actions till 18It's not enough to just give themmoney when they cry and scold themwhen they are bad.So who do youblame, a child that has not been taught right from wrong.They are notborn educated. You have to guide and teach.It's your job to providethem with life & social skills,not the schools,their job iseducation.There are always exceptions to anything, but those areexceptions and not supposed to be the norm.Am I wrong here ?areparents just supposed to look sit back and donothing?Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 20:09:01 2001 f9T28xa09955 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:09:00 - ([209.178.135.87] helo=g2t8c9) id 15y1rN-0006Nk-00; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:09:05 -0800 Subject: Re: All the snake oil junk It is sarcasm, those who have been here awhile get the joke. Thus the =(the above is sarcasm) line. Since you are new here start asking =question and we will all help you out. Especially me. Adam Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 6:42 PMSubject: All the snake oil junk I have only been in this bamboo rod building for a short time, but =really enjoy learning all this and gathering all this information from =different people and trying to make a bamboo rod in the end. This Adam =Virgil guy is really sounding silly. If he has so may big secret ideas =and ways of doing things, just stay off the web site and yhou will not =have to worry about me learning any thing from you, what every it is you =are scared I will learn from you birddog It is sarcasm, those who have beenhere = the joke. Thus the (the above is sarcasm) line. Since you are new here = asking question and we will all help you out. Especially =me. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 = PMSubject: All the snake oil =junk bamboo rod building for a short time, but really enjoy learning all = gathering all this information from different people and trying to = stay off the web site and yhou will not have to worry about me = thing from you, what every it is you are scared I will learn from = birddog from cw@vanion.com Sun Oct 28 20:13:28 2001 f9T2DRa10495 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:13:27 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:18:13 - Subject: 3M Perfect-It Thanks to all who've responded, and for others interested;Perfect-It Rubbing Compound, Fine Cut #39002Finesse-it II Machine Polish # 39003 Thanks to all who've responded,and = interested;Perfect-It Rubbing Compound, Fine= #39002 39003 from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 28 20:15:29 2001 f9T2FSa10815 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:15:28 - rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Danger: Delete to Avoid a Non- Bamboo Respons to RE: Making it loo k difficult Tony,I have a London accent and most Canadians ask me if I am Australian?Not too insulted, Terry Tony Young wrote: Yeah, well at least you don't get told you speak English quite well forsomebody from somewhere near Germany (Austria).One of these even told me I speak a lot like that Hogan person and if I hadan Australian English teacher. Tony At 09:22 AM 10/28/01 -0600, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Terry - Well I've read some long books on Canadian history but you're right aboutmost of our kids here in the US. My daughters (who I hope and believe areexceptions) had a chance to go to Israel last year. One of theirclassmates(a senior in college) said she has some friends in Brazil and asked ifIsrael was anywhere near there. My daughter told her they share a longborder. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 8:38 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Making it look difficult Tony,I do not think kids in North America learn too much about about the restof the world. They get taught that it is ok to be gay and lesbian butvery little about other cultures in the world.Living in Canada, my kids know very little about the rest of the world,all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp.Terry Tony Miller wrote: My last post on this didn't go through, so I'll repost.if the otherone comes through later, oh well? Terry A. wrote:In the light ofrecent events I think it would be better to give highschool students maps of the world and some some insight to differentcustoms,after all there is more to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying out loud, TerryTerry I'm NOT saying you should make it part oftheir normal studies:)) Are you saying you can't know where a placelike Diego Garcia isand not know how to make a bamboo rods at thesametime.Gee, It's a good thing they don't teach anything like woodshop inour school. (which they do) LOLThose poor kids might not know whereOhio is.:))Spoken from a father of an All(and I mean every year) honorroll student. And wow! she(notice I said she)knows how to fly fish andtie flies.How on earth could she know where Afghanistan is and keepall that other stuff in her poor little head too.LOL TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded ourhumanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 28 20:18:48 2001 f9T2Ika11168 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:18:47 - Subject: Re: NRM/look difficult/delete if you want I agree with Terry here. I have a son and daughter. My son is pretty good even knows where Marakesh is which although a lot of people know the song haven't a clue about where it is. Also unlike most, actually all kids his age I know of he's an absolute pleasure to get away sailing or fishing with BUT he has to learn everything the hard way and I'm at a loss to understand why this seems to be so.I wont go on about my girl (14), except to say she's now at the age of knowing all but not enough to know she knows very little in fact.It's got to be peer pressure based on California TV shows. Tony At 09:09 PM 10/28/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Part of growing up is learning from ones mistakes and you cannot forceyour kids into choices based on your experience, it doesn't like that,not anymore.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from dcurtis@satx.rr.com Sun Oct 28 20:21:16 2001 f9T2LFa11505 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:21:15 - f9T2W9Wt002754 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:32:19 -0600 Subject: Fw: SRG 2001 I upgraded my geocities web site so it could offer more bandwidth. If youtried to download my pics before and couldn't, please try it again. Thanksand have a good evening. http://geocities.com/beehoghog/ Darrin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Venneri" Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 6:10 PMSubject: Re: SRG 2001 Darrin Curtis wrote: My URL is http://geocities.com/beehoghog/ Sorry got key happy. Darrin ----- Original Message -----From: Darrin Curtis Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 4:58 PMSubject: SRG 2001 I posted the photos I took at the SRG 2001 on my newwebsite. Just click and download the three files that arezipped. Unzip them and take a look. Each file is about 3-4megs. Let me know what you think. Darrin Curtis Darrin,I tried to get to the web site and only a sorry message came up .Did Ido something wrong. Did you get to see any of my reel seats at thegathering http://www.ulster.net/~rvenneri/index.html Best RegardsBob VVenneri's21 Chuck Hill RdSaugerties NY 12477845 246 5882 from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 28 20:24:33 2001 f9T2OWa11856 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:24:32 - Subject: Re: Danger: Delete to Avoid a Non-Bamboo Respons to RE: Makingit loo k difficult rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Could be a LOT worse, they may think you're a Kiwi, whoops [:-)] Sorry to all the Kiwis but you KNOW I had to say it. It's like a high school friend who liked to tell everybody during the waves of Veit Nam boat people arriving here in large numbers in the 70's based on George Orwell's Animal Farm."We're all Australian's but some are more Australian than others". I don't agree about the more part for people who want to live here but his quote seems appropriate [:-)] Tony At 09:16 PM 10/28/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,I have a London accent and most Canadians ask me if I am Australian?Not too insulted, Terry Tony Young wrote: Yeah, well at least you don't get told you speak English quite well forsomebody from somewhere near Germany (Austria).One of these even told me I speak a lot like that Hogan person and if I hadan Australian English teacher. Tony At 09:22 AM 10/28/01 -0600, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Terry - Well I've read some long books on Canadian history but you're rightaboutmost of our kids here in the US. My daughters (who I hope and believeareexceptions) had a chance to go to Israel last year. One of their classmates (a senior in college) said she has some friends in Brazil and asked ifIsrael was anywhere near there. My daughter told her they share a longborder. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 8:38 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Making it look difficult Tony,I do not think kids in North America learn too much about about therestof the world. They get taught that it is ok to be gay and lesbian butvery little about other cultures in the world.Living in Canada, my kids know very little about the rest of the world,all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp.Terry Tony Miller wrote: My last post on this didn't go through, so I'll repost.if the otherone comes through later, oh well? Terry A. wrote:In the light ofrecent events I think it would be better to give highschool students maps of the world and some some insight todifferentcustoms,after all there is more to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying out loud, TerryTerry I'm NOT saying you should make it part oftheir normal studies:)) Are you saying you can't know where a placelike Diego Garcia isand not know how to make a bamboo rods at thesametime.Gee, It's a good thing they don't teach anything like woodshop inour school. (which they do) LOLThose poor kids might not know whereOhio is.:))Spoken from a father of an All(and I mean every year)honorroll student. And wow! she(notice I said she)knows how to fly fish andtie flies.How on earth could she know where Afghanistan is and keepall that other stuff in her poor little head too.LOL TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded ourhumanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 28 20:34:35 2001 f9T2YZa12402 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:34:35 - Subject: Re: Snake oil Adam,what part of rodmaking are you having trouble with that is not in any of thebooks or in the archives?It cannot be the lack of bullshit and "science", there is plenty of that.Plane flip, plane flip........... that is all it takes Adam Vigil wrote: Rodmaking? I am not talking about rodmaking I am talking about SNAKE OIL. Why wouldanyone be on a rodmakes list want to share information on rodmaking?Thatmakes no sense. I thought this list was for my own personnel amusement. News Flash, This list is for sharing information on rodmaking, SHARINGINFORMATION. Maybe some people need to understand what they signed up for joining thislist. Maybe they should teach that is school. Adam ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:41 AMSubject: Re: Snake oil So what you suggest is, is that every one pools their knowledge thatthey have gained by experience and hard work for the use of all for free? Is that the new American way? I seem to remember that experiments like this have ahabit of failing?It is easy to make cane rods on a part time level. Making them professionally without being potless is very difficult with the "off the shelf" equiment, most of which seems very limited in accuracy for the price, and still require lots of straightening to be workable.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Wait a minute you guys! Stop giving away the secrets of snake oil. I have done a lot of research on snake oil but I will not share it with you because someone may steal it. I did not do all that work on snake oils only to have some bastard steal from me and call it there own. For heaven sakeshow hard is it to make snake oil. It is not rocket science. I developed my own snake oil press and it is one of a kind. I will not tell you anything about itbecause you might steal it. And anyone else making snake oil pressesare a bunch of crooks selling crap! If they really did have a great snake oilpress they would corner the snake oil market. And for those still usingtheir hands to get snake oil YOU ARE CRAZY. No one can make a livingprofessionally squeezing snakes by hand. You would only be able to squeeze oil from maybe one or two snakes a month. And for those just startingtosqueeze snakes for oil you have a lot of nerve to charge the same for your snake oil as I do. And dont you dare start teaching kids snake squeezing that is more competition I mean the have better things to learn. YOUARE ALL WRONG AND I AM RIGHT...SO THERE! Adam Vigil(the above posting was sarcasm) from Troutgetter@aol.com Sun Oct 28 20:42:07 2001 f9T2g6a12808 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:42:06 - Subject: Re: All the snake oil junk Dear 'birddog,"I have got to tell you, You have Adam pegged TOTALLY wrong! I can see where if you hadn't been paying attention you MIGHT have gotten the wrong idea. Adam was simply making a little fun. I enjoy Adam's posts and I think most of us on the list do as well. I also count Adam as a friend, as we've spent a few afternoons together yammering bamboo.Welcome to the list. Don't hesitate to ask anyone a question, you'll probably find lots of ways to skin a cat (just a figure of speech everyone, don't shoot me)! Mike Shay In a message dated 10/28/2001 4:29:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, boyko@peoplepc.com writes: This Adam Virgil guy is really sounding silly. If he has so may big secret not have to worry about me learning any thing from you, what every it is you are scared I will learn from you birddog Dear 'birddog,"I have got to tell you, You have Adam pegged TOTALLY wrong! I can see whereif you hadn't been paying attention you MIGHT have gotten the wrong as we've spent a few afternoons together yammering bamboo. probably find lots of ways to skin a cat (just a figure of speech everyone,don't shoot me)! Mike Shay In a message dated 10/28/2001 4:29:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,boyko@peoplepc.com writes: This Adam Virgil guy is doing things, just stay off the web site and yhou will not have to worry aboutme learning any thing from you, what every it is you are scared I will learn from ctn45555@centurytel.net Sun Oct 28 21:08:59 2001 f9T38wa13651 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:08:58 - f9T391R08655 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:09:02 - Organization: Smith & Boyd Subject: Re: Equipement for making ferrules Thanks to all who have responded to my post concerning equipment needs Chad S. Boyd from bob@downandacross.com Sun Oct 28 21:36:43 2001 f9T3aha14475 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:36:43 - Subject: RE: SRG 2001 Thanks Darrin for sharing the pics. I had to wait, but they were excellent.Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 8:00 PM Subject: Re: SRG 2001 My URL is http://geocities.com/beehoghog/ Sorry got key happy. Darrin----- Original Message -----From: Darrin Curtis Subject: SRG 2001 I posted the photos I took at the SRG 2001 on my new website. Justclick and download the three files that are zipped. Unzip them and take alook. Each file is about 3-4 megs. Let me know what you think. Darrin Curtis excellent.Bob CurtisSent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 8:00 2001My URL is http://geocities.com/beehoghog/ Sorry got key happy. Darrin ----- Original Message ----- Curtis Sent: Sunday, October 28, = PMSubject: SRG 2001 I posted the photos I took at the = Curtis from caneman@clnk.com Sun Oct 28 21:46:42 2001 f9T3kfa14819 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:46:42 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:11:06 -0600 Subject: SRG 2001 Just got home from the SRG 2001 and for those of you that missed it... =well, nothing to say except that it was the best yet.... Thanks to =Harry, Charlie, Dennis, Rick, Mike, Lowell, Steve, Ken, Ken, and =EVERYONE that helped out, did demos, talks, donations for the silent =auction, etc. Those of you that know me, know I love to go to the shows =and gatherings, if for no other reason that to see old friends and show =off the scars I've accumulated since our last meeting, and this time I =had more fun than I can ever remember having at a gathering. The food =was fantastic, (let me tell ya, no way you could eat like this for three =days for what they charged for registration fees), the demonstrations, =each and every one, were top notch, and the company... well, the company =was unparalleled. Days bouncing from friend to friend, making a few new =ones, evenings with "The Crew" in rooms 1 & 2 and even a little fishing =on the way home. Seeing cane rods built by unequaled craftsmen like Al =Medved and others, casting rods that would take your breath away, =watching people like Dave Diaz and Troy Miller make a cane rod do the =kind of magic that I dream of doing with one.... Thursday was great... =Friday was Better... Saturday was FANTASTIC, topped off with Ken Coles =Famous Burgers... Only Sunday, today, was sad.... hated to watch all =those guys fade in the rear view mirror as I drove away. I'm looking =forward, now, to 2002. Many of you I won't see for another year, many, =maybe never again, but I'll never forget any of you and the laughs we =had over the past few days.Well.... I would kinda like to forget about the "flyrod in the =silent auction" incident... Remember... BOB HAS 51 WEEKS LEFT TO PLAN =REVENGE... *S* Harry told me "Revenge is mine, saith the Lord"... =well, JERRY, DAVE by next year, I'll be taking up God's work! *evil =sneer* Thanks for a great weekend and great memories! Bob PS: A special note to John Long... Billie said thanks for the =suggestion to practice with the empty wine bottle... she has already =emptied two on your advice! *S*R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Just got home from the SRG 2001 and for those of you that missed = well, nothing to say except that it was the best yet.... Thanks to = Charlie, Dennis, Rick, Mike, Lowell, Steve, Ken, Ken, and EVERYONE that = that know me, know I love to go to the shows and gatherings, if for no = reason that to see old friends and show off the scars I've accumulated = last meeting, and this time I had more fun than I can ever remember = like this for three days for what they charged for registration fees), = demonstrations, each and every one, were top notch, and the company... = like Al Medved and others, casting rods that would take your breath = watching people like Dave Diaz and Troy Miller make a cane rod do the = magic that I dream of doing with one.... Thursday was great... Friday = Better... Saturday was FANTASTIC, topped off with Ken Coles Famous = Only Sunday, today, was sad.... hated to watch all those guys fade in = of you I won't see for another year, many, maybe never again, but I'll = days. forget about the "flyrod in the silent auction" incident... Remember... = "Revenge = saith the Lord"... well, JERRY, DAVE by next year, I'll be taking up = *evil sneer* Thanks for a great weekend and great memories! Bob suggestion to practice with the empty wine bottle... she has already = on your advice! *S*R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 22:03:56 2001 f9T43ta15452 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:03:55 - ([209.178.135.112] helo=g2t8c9) id 15y3eU-0001AS-00; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:03:55 -0800 Subject: Re: Snake oil Terry, Thanks to the list and people like Mike Shay,Tony Miller, Bob Nunley, HarryBoyd, Channer, M-D, Bret, Bob M., John Zimny, Jim Reams, Darryl H., TonyYoung, Tony Speizo, Chris McDowell, Art Port, Bill Harms, Ralph Moon, OnisC., Dave Norling, Todd Talsma, Paul Blakley, Martin Jensen, Chris Raine,Jerry Young, Ron Grantham, Tom Smithwick, Dave Leclair, Max Sotoh, FrankStetzer, Tim Doughty, Davesrods, Ray Gould, Jim Bureau, Don Andersen,ShawnPineo and a few others whose names have slipped my mind. I do not have anytrouble with rod making in fact I am able to help others as well. Funny thing though Terry, I went through the archives and found out youhavenot contributed to the pool of information on rodmaking or did I misssomething. If I did please post all of your contributions so the rest of uscan catch up with what we have missed from you. Because we all know thatyouhave gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from the list otherwise whyelse would you be here? If you want to be a valuable contributor of the listwhy dont you tell us a little of your surface impregnation by a vaccumchamber? I mean the rest of us work hard on our craft and share info andyousoak it right up!! Adam ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Snake oil Adam,what part of rodmaking are you having trouble with that is not in any of the books or in the archives?It cannot be the lack of bullshit and "science", there is plenty of that.Plane flip, plane flip........... that is all it takes Adam Vigil wrote: Rodmaking? I am not talking about rodmaking I am talking about SNAKE OIL. Why wouldanyone be on a rodmakes list want to share information on rodmaking? That makes no sense. I thought this list was for my own personnelamusement. News Flash, This list is for sharing information on rodmaking, SHARINGINFORMATION. Maybe some people need to understand what they signed up for joining this list. Maybe they should teach that is school. Adam ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:41 AMSubject: Re: Snake oil So what you suggest is, is that every one pools their knowledge that they have gained by experience and hard work for the use of all for free? Is that the new American way? I seem to remember that experiments like this have a habit of failing?It is easy to make cane rods on a part time level. Making them professionally without being potless is very difficult with the "off the shelf" equiment, most of which seems very limited in accuracy for the price, and still require lots of straightening to be workable.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Wait a minute you guys! Stop giving away the secrets of snake oil. I have done a lot of research on snake oil but I will not share it with you because someone may steal it. I did not do all that work on snake oils only to have some bastard steal from me and call it there own. For heaven sakes how hard is it to make snake oil. It is not rocket science. I developed my own snake oil press and it is one of a kind. I will not tell you anything about it because you might steal it. And anyone else making snake oil presses are a bunch of crooks selling crap! If they really did have a great snake oil press they would corner the snake oil market. And for those still using their hands to get snake oil YOU ARE CRAZY. No one can make a livingprofessionally squeezing snakes by hand. You would only be able to squeeze oil from maybe one or two snakes a month. And for those just starting to squeeze snakes for oil you have a lot of nerve to charge the same for your snake oil as I do. And dont you dare start teaching kids snake squeezing that is more competition I mean the have better things to learn. YOU ARE ALL WRONG AND I AM RIGHT...SO THERE! Adam Vigil(the above posting was sarcasm) from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 28 22:15:01 2001 f9T4Exa15846 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:14:59 - Subject: Re: Snake oil I'm going to sit and watch this for a while [:-)] Funny thing though Terry, I went through the archives and found out youhavenot contributed to the pool of information on rodmaking or did I misssomething. If I did please post all of your contributions so the rest of uscan catch up with what we have missed from you. Because we all know thatyouhave gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from the list otherwise whyelse would you be here? If you want to be a valuable contributor of the listwhy dont you tell us a little of your surface impregnation by a vaccumchamber? I mean the rest of us work hard on our craft and share info andyousoak it right up!! Adam from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Oct 28 22:20:45 2001 f9T4Kia16158 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:20:44 - (authenticated) Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:20:30 -0800 Subject: Re: Let's do it again Jeff, Hard to beat a Payne 101. Cast about six of them this weekend, includinganoriginal, and they were all really nice. Harry Jeff Schaeffer wrote: I would like to build a 7 1/2 foot five weight this winter. It should be atrue five weight, and not as fast as either of the Dickerson 7613 versions.Does anyone have any recommendations or suggestions? -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from boyko@peoplepc.com Sun Oct 28 22:23:34 2001 f9T4NXa16397 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:23:33 - 0800 -0800 Subject: chit chat on Adam Vigil response to my remarks on Adam Vigil, My faualt for getting in the =middle of something and not knowing the complete discussion. Sorry =Adam.....But where am I coming from, my hair stands on end when I hear =people do not want to share information, especially about this wonderful =topic of bamboo fly rod building. If I know something , where to get =something you need for bamboo building, I feel tickled to share and be =able to help anyone. If we cannnot share information and hellp each =other, what is there left...birddog response to my remarks on Adam = faualt for getting in the middle of something and not knowing the = end when I hear people do not want to share information, especially = get something you need for bamboo building, I feel tickled to share and = is there left...birddog from flyfish@defnet.com Sun Oct 28 22:26:53 2001 f9T4Qqa16729 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:26:52 - for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:26:53 -0500 Subject: I've found a home! You gotta love this list:))I'm so addicted to it, it isn't even funny.It's better than any television show. writing to the list.LOL Wish I could have been there.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html You gotta love this =list:)) funny.It's better than any television =show.I always make a fresh batch of movie = writing to the list.LOL = SRGsounds like it was a blast. = there.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Sun Oct 28 23:55:05 2001 f9T5t4a18384 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:55:05 - Mon, 29 Oct 2001 06:55:06 +0100 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: All the snake oil junk Dear Lynette Adam have repeatedly showed his willingness to share info, so pls. stay =off his back.BTW, it IS standard politeness to introduce one self when appearing on =the list for thefist time - nice to have a girl on the list,though. regards, carsten jorgensen Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:11 AMSubject: Re: All the snake oil junk It is sarcasm, those who have been here awhile get the joke. Thus the =(the above is sarcasm) line. Since you are new here start asking =question and we will all help you out. Especially me. Adam Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 6:42 PMSubject: All the snake oil junk I have only been in this bamboo rod building for a short time, =but really enjoy learning all this and gathering all this information = from different people and trying to make a bamboo rod in the end. This =Adam Virgil guy is really sounding silly. If he has so may big secret = not have to worry about me learning any thing from you, what every it is =you are scared I will learn from you birddog Dear Lynette Adam have repeatedly showed his = share info, so pls. stay off his back.BTW, it IS standard politeness to = self when appearing on the list for the list,though. regards, carsten jorgensen ----- Original Message ----- Vigil Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 = AMSubject: Re: All the snake oil =junk It is sarcasm, those who have been = get the joke. Thus the (the above is sarcasm) line. Since you are new = me. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Boyko Sent: Sunday, October 28, = PMSubject: All the snake oil =junk bamboo rod building for a short time, but really enjoy learning all = gathering all this information from different people and trying to = just stay off the web site and yhou will not have to worry about me = any thing from you, what every it is you are scared I will learn = birddog from flyfishr@istar.ca Mon Oct 29 01:05:28 2001 f9T75Qa20427 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 01:05:26 - helo=flyfishr) id 15y6Ua-0000Zv-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 02:05:53 -0500 Subject: Metal working To all - grooves and knurling, I've discovered that a cleaning product called"Goof Off" instantly disolves the wax. from Lazybee45@aol.com Mon Oct 29 03:17:53 2001 f9T9Hqa21792 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 03:17:52 - Subject: Re: Snake oil In a message dated 10/28/01 7:41:57 PM Central Standard Time, avyoung@iinet.net.au writes: Here here! I LOVE fly fishing. I am interested in Rodmaking. (my current project seems to have stalled, but I WILL finish it! don't move those tools dear! I am not through using them. I'll just blow the dust off them when I have time!) But i entirely agree. I vastly enjoy the comments and ideas all of you have. (except you few grumpy B#%$^&ds and even then.....) But the focus is on bamboo rod making. If we drift a bit, I for one don't care. i enjoy knowing you all! There is much to life. More than obsessing over one thing. (yes dear, I WILL get off the computer!) mark from Lazybee45@aol.com Mon Oct 29 03:46:09 2001 f9T9k8a22224 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 03:46:08 - Subject: schools and world knowlege warning! rant! all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp. >> A couple of points. I believe that the education system in Canada and the US is pretty fair overall. My daughter is a teacher and I have friends who are teachers. It seems that the schools have become the favorite whipping boy of people who wish to eliminate the cost of schools from the"government dole" But honestly, as my daughter has said, "If the stupid parents would simply TEACH their kids about stuff, I could get back to teaching them howto read and write." She spends the vast majority of her time being a friend, counsellor, advisor, surrogate parent, trouble fixer, lunch helper, coat buttoner, mitten finder and on and on. While many parents are fine people and care deeply about their kids. The vast majority see the schools as a place to dump kids off for the day. Then we see people whining that "The school teaches my kid how to be Gay but not how to read!" Well, If you would actually BE a parent, the schools wouldn't have to fill in the gap!Schools are kind of like the dancing bear. It isn't so much that they are such good parents, it is amazing that they can fill infor parents at all! Or that parents abandon their kids! Ami actually has to hold the class photos hostage to get the parents to come in for a conference to discuss little Suzie's class progress! As to learning about other countries, yeah, we are parochrial a bit. Canada too I suppose, but how many people actually listen to the teachers? I did, I learned where Canada is, I learned where Afghanastan is, where India and Packistan are, (I didn't learn to spell them however!) Another teacher told me something important about learning. "You can't FORCE kids to learn. You have to try to find a way that makes it interesting and then simply put the information out there. If they WANT to learn, you can't stop them."LEt's stop beating up the schools and using them as a scape goat for parents failing.I would rather a kid learned that it was OK to be "Gay or Lesbian" than have the parents screaming that they are a "stupid whoring faggot!" (aQUOTE from a parent I overheard while they were dropping a grade school child off infront of my daughter's school!) The car involved here was a new and very fancy BMW, so it wasn't poverty stricken redneck.It is rather difficult for a child to learn anything when they are not fed at home, and are abandoned virtually at birth to raise themselvesbecause the parents are too busy trying to buy the new mercedes, or impress their neighbors with the new boat! Sorry, I SEE what schools have to put up with. I am amazed that kids can function at all, let alone do what they have done!I see parents all the time who whine that the "Schools are ruining my kid!" but these are all too often the same people who get their kid into daycare at 6 weeks, then farm the kid out to a succession of nannies and babysitters and preschools so that they don't have to bother. In one case in particular the parent involved is outraged that the schools have taught his kids to be horrible people. He is remarried, has four kids by two mothers, is gone from home for long periods of time (miliatary) his first wife was emotionally distant from the kids and they were raised by nannies, second wife is a "business woman" and is off working in other parts of the country 3-5 days a week. The kids never SAW their parents for months at a time. How can they expect the kids to act like THEY want them to when they don't want to be around them!Sorry, I would rather see a school say "It is OK to be who you ARE. You are a valuable person and worth something!" to a kid, than say, as parents seem to, "You are a good for nothing piece of human debris and I don't want to be around you, you filthy little piece of human shit!" just my take!mark mark from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Oct 29 03:59:49 2001 f9T9xla22551 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 03:59:47 - f9T9xnJ72152; Subject: Re: Snake oil I cannot, for the life of me, understand why you blokes waste time andmoneyarguing with this, for want of a better word, person. Peter ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Snake oil I'm going to sit and watch this for a while [:-)] Funny thing though Terry, I went through the archives and found out you have not contributed to the pool of information on rodmaking or did I misssomething. If I did please post all of your contributions so the rest of us can catch up with what we have missed from you. Because we all knowthat you have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from the list otherwisewhyelse would you be here? If you want to be a valuable contributor of the list why dont you tell us a little of your surface impregnation by a vaccumchamber? I mean the rest of us work hard on our craft and share info and you soak it right up!! Adam from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct 29 05:24:10 2001 f9TBOAa23571 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 05:24:10 - Subject: Re: SRG 2001 Bob Nunley wrote: Just got home from the SRG 2001 and for those of you that missed it...well, nothing to say except that it was the best yet.... After downloading the 400 odd messages, I was browsing through them andcomposing my SRG message. I read Bob's message and about all I can addis ditto (except for "the Lord's work", I really don't know if that iswhere Bob is going, LOL). The food was marvelous, the housing superb and the people that make itworth going to unparalleled. I especially need to thank John Long, Ken Cole and David Diaz for thecasting instructions. I think by the time the weekend was over I was notchicken winging with my elbow quite as bad. It is hard to believe theability possessed by these three gentlemen and Troy Miller all at onesmall gathering. They keep getting better, it is hard to believe, but they keep gettingbetter. All of the people on the committee and those who worked so hard to makethis go, have my deepest appreciation. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Oct 29 07:02:06 2001 f9TD25a25729 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:02:05 - Subject: Re: Metal working Just remember that Goof Of contains some very hot and caustic solvents lie toluene or xzylene, and the other lenes. Nasty stuff. Just remember thatGoof Of contains some very hot and caustic solvents lie toluene or xzylene, from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Oct 29 07:35:19 2001 f9TDZJa26416 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:35:19 - f9TDZPS17164 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:35:25 -0600 Subject: SRG This was a great Gathering.One thing I got from it was the desire to makesome nodeless rods. I had no interest at all tillI saw Al Medved do his demo. I checked his rodsand tried to find a splice. Even after he showedme where it was I could not see it. So simple thatI wondered why I had not thought of it. Now I knowwhat I will be doing with that container of oddstrips that have accumulated in the corner. Lotsof rods to cast but I was totally blown away withTom Smithwick's "Poor Man's Quad".Glad to see all again, lots of great rodmakerswere represented.The hamburgers had to be the best I have eaten,even got the last one off the grill. Great job byall, too many names to list.Thanks.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 29 08:02:16 2001 f9TE2Fa27160 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:02:15 - Subject: Re: Snake oil Adam,while you are fooling around on rodmakers I sign off and get on withsatisfyingwork using my own initative.I have spent the last several months converting a small lathe to cnc and havejust finishes a batch of 20 ferrules which are far more precise and very fastcompared to hand turned ferrules.I do not spend that much time on rodmakers, it is far more fun to find onesownsolutions than to be a brain picker like yourself.Yes, I have an impregnation system that took time and money to develop, Iamalso heavily into computer control that does not come cheap but playing withthis stuff takes the monotony out of rodmaking.The archives offer all that is necessary to make a fishing pole, the only thingit cannot give is experience and you cannot get that by staring at a screenAdam, take your finger out of your nose and start enjoying rodmaking andstopworrying what others are doing. Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Terry, Thanks to the list and people like Mike Shay,Tony Miller, Bob Nunley, HarryBoyd, Channer, M-D, Bret, Bob M., John Zimny, Jim Reams, Darryl H., TonyYoung, Tony Speizo, Chris McDowell, Art Port, Bill Harms, Ralph Moon, OnisC., Dave Norling, Todd Talsma, Paul Blakley, Martin Jensen, Chris Raine,Jerry Young, Ron Grantham, Tom Smithwick, Dave Leclair, Max Sotoh, FrankStetzer, Tim Doughty, Davesrods, Ray Gould, Jim Bureau, Don Andersen,ShawnPineo and a few others whose names have slipped my mind. I do not haveanytrouble with rod making in fact I am able to help others as well. Funny thing though Terry, I went through the archives and found out youhavenot contributed to the pool of information on rodmaking or did I misssomething. If I did please post all of your contributions so the rest of uscan catch up with what we have missed from you. Because we all know thatyouhave gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from the list otherwisewhyelse would you be here? If you want to be a valuable contributor of the listwhy dont you tell us a little of your surface impregnation by a vaccumchamber? I mean the rest of us work hard on our craft and share info andyousoak it right up!! Adam ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 6:36 PMSubject: Re: Snake oil Adam,what part of rodmaking are you having trouble with that is not in any of the books or in the archives?It cannot be the lack of bullshit and "science", there is plenty of that.Plane flip, plane flip........... that is all it takes Adam Vigil wrote: Rodmaking? I am not talking about rodmaking I am talking about SNAKE OIL. Whywouldanyone be on a rodmakes list want to share information on rodmaking? That makes no sense. I thought this list was for my own personnelamusement. News Flash, This list is for sharing information on rodmaking, SHARINGINFORMATION. Maybe some people need to understand what they signed up for joining this list. Maybe they should teach that is school. Adam ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:41 AMSubject: Re: Snake oil So what you suggest is, is that every one pools their knowledge that they have gained by experience and hard work for the use of all for free? Is that the new American way? I seem to remember that experiments like this have a habit of failing?It is easy to make cane rods on a part time level. Making them professionally without being potless is very difficult with the "off the shelf" equiment, most of which seems very limited in accuracy for the price, and still require lots of straightening to be workable.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Wait a minute you guys! Stop giving away the secrets of snake oil. I have done a lot of research on snake oil but I will not share it with you because someone may steal it. I did not do all that work on snake oils only to have some bastard steal from me and call it there own. For heavensakes how hard is it to make snake oil. It is not rocket science. I developed my own snake oil press and it is one of a kind. I will not tell you anything about it because you might steal it. And anyone else making snake oilpresses are a bunch of crooks selling crap! If they really did have a great snake oil press they would corner the snake oil market. And for those still using their hands to get snake oil YOU ARE CRAZY. No one can make alivingprofessionally squeezing snakes by hand. You would only be able to squeeze oil from maybe one or two snakes a month. And for those just starting to squeeze snakes for oil you have a lot of nerve to charge the same for your snake oil as I do. And dont you dare start teaching kids snake squeezing that is more competition I mean the have better things to learn.YOU ARE ALL WRONG AND I AM RIGHT...SO THERE! Adam Vigil(the above posting was sarcasm) from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 29 08:03:35 2001 f9TE3Ya27411 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:03:34 - Subject: Re: Snake oil Tony,can't get you going this time?Early days yet!Terry Tony Young wrote: I'm going to sit and watch this for a while [:-)] Funny thing though Terry, I went through the archives and found out youhavenot contributed to the pool of information on rodmaking or did I misssomething. If I did please post all of your contributions so the rest of uscan catch up with what we have missed from you. Because we all knowthat youhave gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from the list otherwisewhyelse would you be here? If you want to be a valuable contributor of the listwhy dont you tell us a little of your surface impregnation by a vaccumchamber? I mean the rest of us work hard on our craft and share info andyousoak it right up!! Adam from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Mon Oct 29 08:12:17 2001 f9TECHa27947 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:12:17 - Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:12:23 +0100 Subject: Re: Snake oil f9TECHa27948 Terry how about some info on impregnating - You've got the THE solution. Don't be shy, we won't tell anyone:-)) regards carsten jorgensen from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 08:12:50 2001 f9TECna28081 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:12:49 - Mon, 29 Oct 2001 06:12:47 -0800 Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:12:47 GMT Subject: Re: SRG 2001 FILETIME=[C9513810:01C16083] Steve: heaven. Bob will be running the bamboo rodmaking shop up there, third cloudon the left, and their will be no power tools allowed. This I Rod Makers List Serve you that missed it... through them and about all I can add that is that make it Diaz for the over I was not believe the all at one keep getting so hard to make Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 29 08:23:14 2001 f9TENEa29161 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:23:14 - Subject: Re: schools and world knowlege warning! rant! Call me old fashioned but I do not think it is good idea to to teach childrenthat homosexuality is normal and ok.That is just my opinion and I am sorry if I have offended any gay rodmakers Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp. >> A couple of points. I believe that the education system in Canada and theUSis pretty fair overall. My daughter is a teacher and I have friends whoare teachers. It seems that the schools have become the favoritewhippingboy of people who wish to eliminate the cost of schools from the"governmentdole" But honestly, as my daughter has said, "If the stupid parents wouldsimply TEACH their kids about stuff, I could get back to teaching them howtoread and write." She spends the vast majority of her time being a friend,counsellor, advisor, surrogate parent, trouble fixer, lunch helper, coatbuttoner, mitten finder and on and on. While many parents are fine peopleand care deeply about their kids. The vast majority see the schools as aplace to dump kids off for the day.Then we see people whining that "The school teaches my kid how to be Gaybut not how to read!" Well, If you would actually BE a parent, the schoolswouldn't have to fill in the gap!Schools are kind of like the dancing bear. It isn't so much that theyare such good parents, it is amazing that they can fill infor parents at all!Or that parents abandon their kids! Ami actually has to hold the classphotos hostage to get the parents to come in for a conference to discusslittle Suzie's class progress! As to learning about other countries, yeah, we are parochrial a bit.Canada too I suppose, but how many people actually listen to the teachers? Idid, I learned where Canada is, I learned where Afghanastan is, where Indiaand Packistan are, (I didn't learn to spell them however!) Another teachertold me something important about learning. "You can't FORCE kids tolearn.You have to try to find a way that makes it interesting and then simply putthe information out there. If they WANT to learn, you can't stop them."LEt's stop beating up the schools and using them as a scape goat forparents failing.I would rather a kid learned that it was OK to be "Gay or Lesbian" thanhave the parents screaming that they are a "stupid whoring faggot!" (aQUOTE from a parent I overheard while they were dropping a grade school child offinfront of my daughter's school!) The car involved here was a new andveryfancy BMW, so it wasn't poverty stricken redneck.It is rather difficult for a child to learn anything when they are notfed at home, and are abandoned virtually at birth to raise themselvesbecausethe parents are too busy trying to buy the new mercedes, or impress theirneighbors with the new boat! Sorry, I SEE what schools have to put upwith.I am amazed that kids can function at all, let alone do what they have done!I see parents all the time who whine that the "Schools are ruining mykid!" but these are all too often the same people who get their kid intodaycare at 6 weeks, then farm the kid out to a succession of nannies andbabysitters and preschools so that they don't have to bother. In one caseinparticular the parent involved is outraged that the schools have taught hiskids to be horrible people. He is remarried, has four kids by two mothers,is gone from home for long periods of time (miliatary) his first wife wasemotionally distant from the kids and they were raised by nannies, secondwife is a "business woman" and is off working in other parts of the country3-5 days a week. The kids never SAW their parents for months at a time. Howcan they expect the kids to act like THEY want them to when they don'twantto be around them!Sorry, I would rather see a school say "It is OK to be who you ARE. Youare a valuable person and worth something!" to a kid, than say, as parentsseem to, "You are a good for nothing piece of human debris and I don't wantto be around you, you filthy little piece of human shit!" just my take!mark mark from earsdws@duke.edu Mon Oct 29 08:38:39 2001 f9TEcca29955 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:38:38 - f9TEc6F09105; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Div. of Otolaryngology-Head andNeck Surgery, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: schools and world knowlege warning! rant! Your comment is offensive to all educated, enlightened people/rodmakers. Keep yourbigotry off line. It is this type of thinking that forces teachers to spendtimecommunicating that it's not wrong or bad to be gay or a lesbian. As aneducator, Ilearned very, very early on that it is impossible to overcome 18 hours ofexposureto parents in a 6 hour school day. And, yet, we are forced to.dws. "T. Ackland" wrote: Call me old fashioned but I do not think it is good idea to to teach childrenthat homosexuality is normal and ok.That is just my opinion and I am sorry if I have offended any gay rodmakers Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp. >> A couple of points. I believe that the education system in Canada and theUSis pretty fair overall. My daughter is a teacher and I have friends whoare teachers. It seems that the schools have become the favoritewhippingboy of people who wish to eliminate the cost of schools from the"governmentdole" But honestly, as my daughter has said, "If the stupid parents wouldsimply TEACH their kids about stuff, I could get back to teaching themhow toread and write." She spends the vast majority of her time being a friend,counsellor, advisor, surrogate parent, trouble fixer, lunch helper, coatbuttoner, mitten finder and on and on. While many parents are finepeopleand care deeply about their kids. The vast majority see the schools as aplace to dump kids off for the day.Then we see people whining that "The school teaches my kid how to beGaybut not how to read!" Well, If you would actually BE a parent, the schoolswouldn't have to fill in the gap!Schools are kind of like the dancing bear. It isn't so much that theyare such good parents, it is amazing that they can fill infor parents atall!Or that parents abandon their kids! Ami actually has to hold the classphotos hostage to get the parents to come in for a conference todiscusslittle Suzie's class progress! As to learning about other countries, yeah, we are parochrial a bit.Canada too I suppose, but how many people actually listen to theteachers? Idid, I learned where Canada is, I learned where Afghanastan is, whereIndiaand Packistan are, (I didn't learn to spell them however!) Anotherteachertold me something important about learning. "You can't FORCE kids tolearn.You have to try to find a way that makes it interesting and then simplyputthe information out there. If they WANT to learn, you can't stop them."LEt's stop beating up the schools and using them as a scape goat forparents failing.I would rather a kid learned that it was OK to be "Gay or Lesbian" thanhave the parents screaming that they are a "stupid whoring faggot!" (aQUOTE from a parent I overheard while they were dropping a grade school childoffinfront of my daughter's school!) The car involved here was a new andveryfancy BMW, so it wasn't poverty stricken redneck.It is rather difficult for a child to learn anything when they are notfed at home, and are abandoned virtually at birth to raise themselvesbecausethe parents are too busy trying to buy the new mercedes, or impresstheirneighbors with the new boat! Sorry, I SEE what schools have to put upwith.I am amazed that kids can function at all, let alone do what they havedone!I see parents all the time who whine that the "Schools are ruining mykid!" but these are all too often the same people who get their kid intodaycare at 6 weeks, then farm the kid out to a succession of nanniesandbabysitters and preschools so that they don't have to bother. In onecase inparticular the parent involved is outraged that the schools have taughthiskids to be horrible people. He is remarried, has four kids by twomothers,is gone from home for long periods of time (miliatary) his first wife wasemotionally distant from the kids and they were raised by nannies,secondwife is a "business woman" and is off working in other parts of thecountry3-5 days a week. The kids never SAW their parents for months at atime. Howcan they expect the kids to act like THEY want them to when they don'twantto be around them!Sorry, I would rather see a school say "It is OK to be who you ARE. Youare a valuable person and worth something!" to a kid, than say, asparentsseem to, "You are a good for nothing piece of human debris and I don'twantto be around you, you filthy little piece of human shit!" just my take!mark mark from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Oct 29 08:54:36 2001 f9TEsaa00821 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:54:36 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 flyfish@defnet.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: schools and world knowlege warning! rant! dws, I do not find Terry's remark offensive, it is simply a statement of his opinion. I do, however, find your remarks quite frightening. As an "educator"you feel it is your responsibility to "overcome" any values that parents may inculcate in their children! I would hope that my 18 hours of exposure to my children provided them with the ability to see through the manipulative machinations of "educators" such as yourself.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ earsdws@duke.edu wrote: Your comment is offensive to all educated, enlightened people/rodmakers. Keep yourbigotry off line. It is this type of thinking that forces teachers to spendtimecommunicating that it's not wrong or bad to be gay or a lesbian. As aneducator, Ilearned very, very early on that it is impossible to overcome 18 hours ofexposureto parents in a 6 hour school day. And, yet, we are forced to.dws. "T. Ackland" wrote: Call me old fashioned but I do not think it is good idea to to teach childrenthat homosexuality is normal and ok.That is just my opinion and I am sorry if I have offended any gayrodmakers from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Mon Oct 29 09:02:47 2001 f9TF2ka01497 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:02:46 - Subject: List Information - My observation I have been reading and enjoying this list now for several months. Have posted questions and received more information on how to do... than Iwould ever imagine. I have not built a rod yet! Split the culm, pressed the nodes to straighten,planed to 60*, glued, bound, straightened some more, made ferrules, woundonsnakes guides, intermediate wraps, made a reel seat, winding check orfigured out what the best way to determine the best line weight for a rodis. Although when I do, I most likely will not buy any books to getstarted - Why you might ask?I have read so much information on this list, visited web sites, saved theposts for tapers that I would like to build, saved post for making tools,ovens, planing techniques. I have read much debate on dip tube techniques, ways to get rid of airbubbles. ways to flame cane. How to split culms, why and why not saw them. from an outside observer, there is more information be passed out herethanyou will every read in a book, this information is fresh, someone has eitherjust done it or has been doing it and it works! Keep up the great work, Peter from SBDunn@aol.com Mon Oct 29 09:34:47 2001 f9TFYka03007 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:34:46 - for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:34:38 - Subject: Re: chit chat on Adam Vigil I don't think you need to apologize too much, birddog. While I think you wrongly accused Adam, at least your post is related to rodmaking (whichisn't the case with two-thirds of what is being posted nowadays). Regards, Steve. from cathcreek@hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 09:58:22 2001 f9TFwLa04225 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:58:21 - Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:58:23 -0800 Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:58:23 GMT flyfish@defnet.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: schools and world knowlege warning! rant! FILETIME=[89F01970:01C16092] I think that a family's values-whatever they may be, need to be respected. Having said that, anyone still puting together a cork order? Robert ClarkeCatherine Creek Rodscathcreek@hotmail.comhttp://ccr_2.tripod.com/bamboo/index.html From: Reed Curry CC: hexagon@odyssee.net, Lazybee45@aol.com, avyoung@iinet.net.au, flyfish@defnet.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: schools and world knowlege warning! rant!Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:54:35 -0500 dws,I do not find Terry's remark offensive, it is simply a statement of hisopinion.I do, however, find your remarks quite frightening. As an "educator" youfeel it is your responsibility to "overcome" any values that parents mayinculcate in their children! I would hope that my 18 hours of exposureto my children provided them with the ability to see through themanipulative machinations of "educators" such as yourself.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ earsdws@duke.edu wrote: Your comment is offensive to all educated, enlightened people/rodmakers. Keep yourbigotry off line. It is this type of thinking that forces teachers to spend timecommunicating that it's not wrong or bad to be gay or a lesbian. As an educator, Ilearned very, very early on that it is impossible to overcome 18 hours of exposureto parents in a 6 hour school day. And, yet, we are forced to.dws. "T. Ackland" wrote: Call me old fashioned but I do not think it is good idea to to teach childrenthat homosexuality is normal and ok.That is just my opinion and I am sorry if I have offended any gay rodmakers _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Oct 29 10:07:56 2001 f9TG7ta04900 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:07:56 - for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:07:54 -0500 Subject: Re:SRG/friar Nunley The first time I met Bob Nunley was a the Grayling gathering andI got to spend some time talking with him.My wife Tammy leaned over to me and said "this guy is a little more wild =than the rest" (she said that with a smile, Bob):))and I said to her "I know isn't he a blast to hang out with".:)) LOLshe just laughed a little.and every single time I've talked to him since, has been a pleasure.One of the most giving makers on the list for sure!So if I'm allowed in heaven LOL Which I seriously doubt.LOLI know I'll be hanging out at Bob's shop.:)) www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html I got to spend some time talking him. = Bob):)) hang out with".:)) LOLshe just laughed a little.and every single time I've talked to = been a pleasure.One of the most giving makers on the = sure!So if I'm allowed in heaven LOL Which I = doubt.LOL shop.:)) www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from lblan@provide.net Mon Oct 29 10:30:16 2001 f9TGUFa06224 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:30:15 - for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:30:21 - Subject: RE: schools and world knowlege warning! rant! Well put Reed. I continue to be thankful that I spent enough time with mydaughter to allow her to be exposed to "educators". Interestingly enough, my17 year old daughter is less tolerant than I am. Interesting that educated individuals continue to be drawn in by TA'strolling. I thought his comment was a hoot. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 9:55 AM Cc: hexagon@odyssee.net; Lazybee45@aol.com; avyoung@iinet.net.au;flyfish@defnet.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: schools and world knowlege warning! rant! dws,I do not find Terry's remark offensive, it is simply astatement of hisopinion.I do, however, find your remarks quite frightening. As an"educator" youfeel it is your responsibility to "overcome" any values that parents mayinculcate in their children! I would hope that my 18 hours of exposureto my children provided them with the ability to see through themanipulative machinations of "educators" such as yourself.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ earsdws@duke.edu wrote: Your comment is offensive to all educated, enlightened people/rodmakers. Keep your bigotry off line. It is this type of thinking that forces teachers to spend time communicating that it's not wrong or bad to be gay or a lesbian. As an educator, I learned very, very early on that it is impossible to overcome 18 hours of exposure to parents in a 6 hour school day. And, yet, we are forced to.dws. "T. Ackland" wrote: Call me old fashioned but I do not think it is good idea to to teach children that homosexuality is normal and ok.That is just my opinion and I am sorry if I have offended any gay rodmakers from ttalsma@macatawa.org Mon Oct 29 10:31:11 2001 f9TGVBa06418 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:31:11 - id ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:24:57 -0500 id TH24NT0Q; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:24:51 -0500 Subject: Tip/Source Archive It's Monday again and I've made some changes to the tips site again. I've added a lot of tips and sources. More to come. (http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/)-- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from cdn@ticon.net Mon Oct 29 10:46:25 2001 Received: from f9TGkPa07494 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 2001 16:46:32 -0000 Received: from c041.pm3-2.ens.ticon.net (HELO 16:46:31 -0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon,29 Oct 2001 10:48:23 -0600 From: Ned Guyette X-Mailer: "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Brian, try www.clausing-industrial.com or meridian machinery at www.mermac.com or Sobelmachinery at 201-768-9645. Clausing bought the Atlas company and hasmany parts. The other two contacts specialize in used parts for olderamerican built machinery (Atlas, Clausing,South Bend etc.) Best of luck Ned from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Oct 29 10:59:01 2001 Received: from f9TGwxa08486 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 2001 16:59:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tony.iinet.net.au) 0000 Message-Id:X-Sender:avyoung@mail.iinet.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 From: Tony Young Subject:Re: Snake oil Cc: Adam Vigil , References: avyoung@iinet.net.au Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I'vedecided it's more satisfying to strike once you're really on a roll. Although I'mnot convinced you've made terminal velocity quite yet it does looks like thepressure relief valve is being screwed down right now. Tony At 09:05 AM10/29/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,can't get you going this time?Early days yet!Terry Tony Young wrote: I'm going to sit and watch this for a while [:-)] Funny thing though Terry, I went through the archives and found out you have not contributed to the pool of information on rodmaking or did I misssomething. If I did please post all of your contributions so the rest of us can catch up with what we have missed from you. Because we all know that you have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from the list otherwisewhyelse would you be here? If you want to be a valuable contributor of the list why dont you tell us a little of your surface impregnation by a vaccumchamber? I mean the rest of us work hard on our craft and share info and you soak it right up!! Adam /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Mon Oct 29 11:19:44 2001 f9THJha09632 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:19:43 - Subject: RE: schools and world knowledge warning! rant! My observations of working in a "public school environment" Somewhere, I'm not sure where, kids have lost out big time on the educationprocess.Not all kids, but a good number, have no respect for those who try toeducate them.They sleep in class, talk back, are rude, disruptive and destructive to theeducational process for those who want to learn. Parents are not raising there children, they think that the school system isresponsible for "ALL" the education. Parents from what I have seen andwitnessed from the way my friends raise their children - Let the kid do ashe / she pleases without much of a consequence for there action. I wasraised that my actions were a reflection on my parents' and to make themlook bad there would be hell to pay. They were responsible for my actionsuntil I was 18 and as long as I lived under there roof, I lived by theirrules. Today, a parent defends the kid to end, "my kid didn't / wouldn't dothat" There is no consequence because the parent bails them out. Example,Johnny buys a water pipe on the internet from a school computer and getscaught, dad shows up to get him, my Johnny didn't do it - I produce theserver logs with Johnny's logon, the sites he went to , the water pipe hepurchased, and dads credit card # - Response Johnny didn't do it! Four weekslater dad show up in the Principals Office to apologize - water pipe inhand. There is a breakdown in society parents' don't get the picture - Getinvolved, raise your children - Educate them. Pete -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: schools and world knowlege warning! rant! Well put Reed. I continue to be thankful that I spent enough time with mydaughter to allow her to be exposed to "educators". Interestingly enough, my17 year old daughter is less tolerant than I am. Interesting that educated individuals continue to be drawn in by TA'strolling. I thought his comment was a hoot. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 9:55 AM Cc: hexagon@odyssee.net; Lazybee45@aol.com; avyoung@iinet.net.au;flyfish@defnet.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: schools and world knowlege warning! rant! dws,I do not find Terry's remark offensive, it is simply astatement of hisopinion.I do, however, find your remarks quite frightening. As an"educator" youfeel it is your responsibility to "overcome" any values that parents mayinculcate in their children! I would hope that my 18 hours of exposureto my children provided them with the ability to see through themanipulative machinations of "educators" such as yourself.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ earsdws@duke.edu wrote: Your comment is offensive to all educated, enlightened people/rodmakers. Keep your bigotry off line. It is this type of thinking that forces teachers to spend time communicating that it's not wrong or bad to be gay or a lesbian. As an educator, I learned very, very early on that it is impossible to overcome 18 hours of exposure to parents in a 6 hour school day. And, yet, we are forced to.dws. "T. Ackland" wrote: Call me old fashioned but I do not think it is good idea to to teach children that homosexuality is normal and ok.That is just my opinion and I am sorry if I have offended any gay rodmakers from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 29 11:59:28 2001 f9THxSa12162 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:59:28 - rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: schools and world knowlege warning! rant! What you people get up to is not normal to me and most folk, I am sorry. Inever saidyou were bad people, you said that.Now, if you want to talk about sheep.............? earsdws@duke.edu wrote: Your comment is offensive to all educated, enlightened people/rodmakers. Keep yourbigotry off line. It is this type of thinking that forces teachers to spendtimecommunicating that it's not wrong or bad to be gay or a lesbian. As aneducator, Ilearned very, very early on that it is impossible to overcome 18 hours ofexposureto parents in a 6 hour school day. And, yet, we are forced to.dws. "T. Ackland" wrote: Call me old fashioned but I do not think it is good idea to to teach childrenthat homosexuality is normal and ok.That is just my opinion and I am sorry if I have offended any gayrodmakers Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp. >> A couple of points. I believe that the education system in Canada andthe USis pretty fair overall. My daughter is a teacher and I have friendswhoare teachers. It seems that the schools have become the favoritewhippingboy of people who wish to eliminate the cost of schools from the"governmentdole" But honestly, as my daughter has said, "If the stupid parentswouldsimply TEACH their kids about stuff, I could get back to teaching themhow toread and write." She spends the vast majority of her time being afriend,counsellor, advisor, surrogate parent, trouble fixer, lunch helper, coatbuttoner, mitten finder and on and on. While many parents are finepeopleand care deeply about their kids. The vast majority see the schools asaplace to dump kids off for the day.Then we see people whining that "The school teaches my kid how to beGaybut not how to read!" Well, If you would actually BE a parent, theschoolswouldn't have to fill in the gap!Schools are kind of like the dancing bear. It isn't so much that theyare such good parents, it is amazing that they can fill infor parents atall!Or that parents abandon their kids! Ami actually has to hold the classphotos hostage to get the parents to come in for a conference todiscusslittle Suzie's class progress! As to learning about other countries, yeah, we are parochrial a bit.Canada too I suppose, but how many people actually listen to theteachers? Idid, I learned where Canada is, I learned where Afghanastan is, whereIndiaand Packistan are, (I didn't learn to spell them however!) Anotherteachertold me something important about learning. "You can't FORCE kids tolearn.You have to try to find a way that makes it interesting and then simplyputthe information out there. If they WANT to learn, you can't stopthem."LEt's stop beating up the schools and using them as a scape goat forparents failing.I would rather a kid learned that it was OK to be "Gay or Lesbian" thanhave the parents screaming that they are a "stupid whoring faggot!" (a QUOTE from a parent I overheard while they were dropping a grade school childoffinfront of my daughter's school!) The car involved here was a new andveryfancy BMW, so it wasn't poverty stricken redneck.It is rather difficult for a child to learn anything when they are notfed at home, and are abandoned virtually at birth to raise themselvesbecausethe parents are too busy trying to buy the new mercedes, or impresstheirneighbors with the new boat! Sorry, I SEE what schools have to put upwith.I am amazed that kids can function at all, let alone do what they havedone!I see parents all the time who whine that the "Schools are ruining mykid!" but these are all too often the same people who get their kid intodaycare at 6 weeks, then farm the kid out to a succession of nanniesandbabysitters and preschools so that they don't have to bother. In onecase inparticular the parent involved is outraged that the schools have taughthiskids to be horrible people. He is remarried, has four kids by twomothers,is gone from home for long periods of time (miliatary) his first wifewasemotionally distant from the kids and they were raised by nannies,secondwife is a "business woman" and is off working in other parts of thecountry3-5 days a week. The kids never SAW their parents for months at atime. Howcan they expect the kids to act like THEY want them to when they don'twantto be around them!Sorry, I would rather see a school say "It is OK to be who you ARE. Youare a valuable person and worth something!" to a kid, than say, asparentsseem to, "You are a good for nothing piece of human debris and I don'twantto be around you, you filthy little piece of human shit!" just my take!mark mark from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Oct 29 13:07:17 2001 f9TJ7Ga16308 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:07:16 - (authenticated) Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:07:03 -0800 Subject: Re: SRG/friar Nunley --------------8BAFE3727D888D5E487AADB8 Tony Miller wrote: So if I'm allowed in heaven LOL Which Iseriously doubt.LOLI know I'll be hanging out atBob's shop.:)) Tony, Is it dating me too badly to admit that at onetime I was a big fan of Larry Gatlin? Anyone elseremember Larry and his brothers? The GatlinBrothers have a song on one of their albums called"The Bowery Prayer" or something like that. Greatsong.... It's a real recognition that even thehomeless wino's in the Bowery are real people,with real needs like you and me. Since I spent acoupla years working alcohol and drug rehab withBourbon Street wino's. I understand that The Bowery Prayer concludes with these lines: Do they have Mogen David in Heaven?Dear Lord, I've just got to knowDo they have Mogen David in Heaven?If they don't, who the hell wants to go? If Bob isn't there, I don't want to beeither. In my mind, it's all about grace,fellows. Bob is one of the most gracious fellowsyou'll ever meet. Not graceful, but gracious. Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------8BAFE3727D888D5E487AADB8 Tony Miller wrote:So if I'm allowedin heaven LOL Which I seriously doubt.LOLIknow I'll be hanging out at Bob's shop.:)) Tony, It's a real recognition that even the homeless wino's in the Bowery are I understand that sentiment. Do they have Mogen David in Heaven?Dear Lord, I've just got to knowDo they have Mogen David in Heaven?If they don't, who the hell wants to go? -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------8BAFE3727D888D5E487AADB8-- from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Oct 29 13:13:16 2001 f9TJDFa16868 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:13:15 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: schools and world knowlege warning! rant! Terry, Now, its one thing to troll for gay rodmakers... we can understand your need, we all need someone to love. Its altogether different when you start impugning the affections of sheep. Olaf is very sensitive on this score, I only hope no-one reads this missive...Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ T. Ackland wrote: What you people get up to is not normal to me and most folk, I am sorry. Inever saidyou were bad people, you said that.Now, if you want to talk about sheep.............? from oandc@email.msn.com Mon Oct 29 14:30:10 2001 f9TKU9a21873 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:30:09 - Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:29:27 -0800 Subject: Hot Press FILETIME=[67F62C80:01C160B8] Gentelmen.It would seem the list is in need of something to chuckle about so I =though I'd volunteer. I'm currently in the planing stages of building a =hot press. The intention is to press entire strips under heat rather =than just the nodes. If correctly constructed I could compress strips =and nodes, create uniform coloring of the cane and heat treat later in =the same unit. I have three questions, that if answered, will save me a =good deal of time and expense. I know, if I avoided the entire project =I'd save alot more.1.) At what temperature does ammonium carbonate first become gaseous?2.) At what temperature does lignin first plasticize?3.) How long must a node be held under pressure to retain it's =compressed state?I have preliminary plans for a press that most anyone could build. or =have built, using relatively inexpensive hydraulics and sustained =temperatures and heat transfer will dictate final construction plans. =Feel free to address these questions on or off list as you choose. I =have a couple of theories I'm committed to testing so if you plan on =attempting to dissuade me from this foolishness please be prepared to =explain why this won't work. We aught to have a little fun with this =one.Wayne :^)) ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 Gentelmen.It would seem the list is in need of = chuckle about so I though I'd volunteer. I'm currently in the planing = building a hot press. The intention is to press entire strips under heat = than just the nodes. If correctly constructed I could compress strips = create uniform coloring of the cane and heat treat later in the same = have three questions, that if answered, will save me a good deal of time = more.1.) At what temperature doesammonium = first become gaseous?2.) At what temperature does lignin = plasticize?3.) How long must a node be held under= retain it's compressed state? most anyone could build. or have built, using relatively inexpensive = and sustained temperatures and heat transfer will dictate final = plans. Feel free to address these questions on or off list as you = a couple of theories I'm committed to testing so if you plan on = dissuade me from this foolishness please be prepared to explain why this = work. We aught to have a little fun with this one.Wayne :^)) ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = Virus Database: 152 - Release Date:10/9/01 from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Oct 29 14:35:36 2001 f9TKZZa22473 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:35:35 - Subject: Re: SRG/friar Nunley Nunley you da bomb! Nunley you dabomb! from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Oct 29 14:48:34 2001 f9TKmXa23740 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:48:33 - Subject: Re: schools and world knowlege warning! rant!?OK ENOUGH OF THISSUBJECT rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu OK guys time to drop this one. The next one who lists on this subject is in deep doo doo. Let's get back to rods or related subjects. Terry, give the list some insight on impregnation of rods. I know you are doing this and I for one would like your observations on it and how it effects a rod. Now I am not asking your process just some insight.Brethttp://www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html OK guys time to drop you are doing this and I for one would like your observations on it and how it Brethttp://www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Oct 29 15:27:25 2001 f9TLROa26536 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:27:25 - ([209.178.135.241] helo=g2t8c9) id 15yJwK-0000P9-00; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:27:24 -0800 Subject: Re: Snake oil Terry, Wow several months converting a small lathe to cnc? You must have beendoingit the Garrison way. Hey, that finger up my nose, guess which one it is.LOL Keep paying attention to the list because there is a lot of good informationyou can keep adding to your methods. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Snake oil Tony,can't get you going this time?Early days yet!Terry Tony Young wrote: I'm going to sit and watch this for a while [:-)] Funny thing though Terry, I went through the archives and found outyou have not contributed to the pool of information on rodmaking or did I misssomething. If I did please post all of your contributions so the rest of us can catch up with what we have missed from you. Because we all know that you have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from the list otherwise why else would you be here? If you want to be a valuable contributor of the list why dont you tell us a little of your surface impregnation by a vaccumchamber? I mean the rest of us work hard on our craft and share info and you soak it right up!! Adam from oandc@email.msn.com Mon Oct 29 15:48:54 2001 f9TLmra28117 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:48:53 - Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:48:11 -0800 Subject: Impregnation FILETIME=[67C35BB0:01C160C3] Terry,As I understand your method, you use a five foot chamber, insert the =glued blank, draw the vacuum, leave for a day, close off the vacuum line =and, using the vacuum in the chamber, draw the impregnating fluid into =the chamber through another line. Then you pressurize the chamber? How =much pressure and for what period of time? I, of course, won't ask you =what resin you are using. I naturally expect to do that research my =self. However, I don't think you would be giving away to many secrets =with those few questions. As you stated, the vacuum methods can very. = Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 Terry,As I understand your method, you use a= chamber, insert the glued blank, draw the vacuum, leave for a day, close = vacuum line and, using the vacuum in the chamber, draw the impregnating = into the chamber through another line. Then you pressurize the chamber? = pressure and for what period of time? I, of course, won't ask you what = are using. I naturally expect to do that research my self. However, I = you stated, the vacuum methods can very. It's the resin that makes it = Wayne ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = Virus Database: 152 - Release Date:10/9/01 from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Mon Oct 29 16:09:21 2001 f9TM9Ka29823 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:09:21 - Mon, 29 Oct 2001 23:09:26 +0100 Subject: Talk to us, Terry Bret wrote Terry, give the list some insight on impregnation of rods. I know you =are doing this and I for one would like your observations on it and how = impregnation.No success yet, but some day......... Come on Terry, be a sport:-))) regards, carsten jorgensen Bret wrote Terry, give the list = asking your process just some insight. Bret = Bret: = persuade Terry to spill the beans on impregnation.No success yet, but = day......... sport:-))) regards, jorgensen from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Mon Oct 29 16:18:12 2001 f9TMIBa00689 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:18:11 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:08:14 -0600 Subject: RE: Talk to us, Terry f9TMIBa00691 Carsten, et al -- Don't bother. Impregnating a cane rod is like giving it a vasectomy. Robsits vitality..... That's why Terry won't tell us about it, he really doeshave a conscience that he doesn't want us to know about.... TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: Talk to us, Terry Bret wrote Terry, give the list some insight on impregnation of rods. I know you aredoing this and I for one would like your observations on it and how iteffects a rod. Now I am not asking your process just some insight. Bret Bret: No success yet, but some day......... Come on Terry, be a sport:-))) regards, carsten jorgensen from dpvbkjs@somtel.com Mon Oct 29 16:18:24 2001 f9TMINa00714 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:18:23 - chruser.svc.tds.net Subject: Re: All the snake oil junk Gosh, Carsten, There's at least two! Kat Dear Lynette Adam have repeatedly showed his willingness to share info, so pls. stayoff his back.BTW, it IS standard politeness to introduce one self when appearing on thelist for thefist time - nice to have a girl on the list,though. regards, carsten jorgensen----- Original Message -----From: Adam Vigil Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:11 AMSubject: Re: All the snake oil junk It is sarcasm, those who have been here awhile get the joke. Thus the(the above is sarcasm) line. Since you are new here start asking questionand we will all help you out. Especially me. Adam----- Original Message -----From: Lynette Boyko Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 6:42 PMSubject: All the snake oil junk I have only been in this bamboo rod building for a short time, butreally enjoy learning all this and gathering all this information fromdifferent people and trying to make a bamboo rod in the end. This AdamVirgil guy is really sounding silly. If he has so may big secret ideasand ways of doing things, just stay off the web site and yhou will nothave to worry about me learning any thing from you, what every it is youare scared I will learn from you birddog Dear Lynette Adam have repeatedly showed hiswillingness toshare info, so pls. stay off his back.BTW, it IS standard politeness to introduceoneself when appearing on the list for thefist time - nice to have a girl on thelist,though. regards, carsten jorgensenstyle="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN- LEFT: 5px;BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">----- Original Message ----- style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font- color:black">From:AdamVigil Sent: Monday, October 29, 20013:11AMSubject: Re: All the snake oiljunk It is sarcasm, those who have been hereawhileget the joke. Thus the (the above is sarcasm) line. Since you are new herestart asking question and we will all help you out. Especiallyme. Adamstyle="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">----- Original Message ----- style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font- color:black">From:LynetteBoyko Sent: Sunday, October 28, 20016:42PMSubject: All the snake oiljunk thisbamboo rod building for a short time, but really enjoy learning allthis andgathering all this information from different people and trying to make a just stay off the web site and yhou will not have to worry about melearningany thing from you, what every it is you are scared I will learn from birddog from homes-sold@home.com Mon Oct 29 16:23:36 2001 f9TMNaa01554 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:23:36 - femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:23:38 -0800 Subject: Spey rod repair Friend of mine has a Hardy 11=BD ' 8wt glass spey rod. He just came back = from a trip on which he broke the rod, sat on it, right where the blank =comes out of the handle between the winding check and cork. Clean brake, =not the shattering type. He could send it back to Hardy but all they =would do is send him another. What he would like to do is put a piece of =rod material, maybe solid material, inside to splice the rod. He knows =it would probably change to rod action and make it stiffer in the butt, =but that is ok. I don't do glass, so anyone up to the task? Any advice?Thanks in advance.Don ' 8wt glass spey rod. He just came back from a trip on which he broke = winding check and cork. Clean brake, not the shattering type. He could = back to Hardy but all they would do is send him another. What he would = the rod. He knows it would probably change to rod action and make it = the butt, but that is ok. I don't do glass, so anyone up to the task? = advice?Thanks in advance.Don from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Oct 29 16:25:19 2001 f9TMPJa01894 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:25:19 - Subject: Re: Talk to us, Terry See I don't agree with that. I have some impregnated rods that I really like. This is a subject that takes on a personal feeling on what some like in a rod.Bret See I don't agree with that takes on a personal feeling on what some like in a rod.Bret from bob@downandacross.com Mon Oct 29 16:42:38 2001 f9TMgba03639 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:42:37 - "Rod Makers \(E-mail\)" Subject: RE: schools and world knowledge warning! rant! I agree with the responsibility issue on many levels, but let us not forgetthat for every kid and parent like that, there are many really good kids andparents. The unfortunate thing is that they get grouped in with the badapples. I have always thought as a teacher that I hope to be the goodexample to my students (and my children) that my Dad was/is for me. When Ithink of how rotten the parents seem at times, I simply remember that oncemy parents were school parents too. BTW, what is a water pipe? (Is that used for Terry's impregnation process?) Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: schools and world knowledge warning! rant!Example,Johnny buys a water pipe on the internet from a school computer and getscaught, dad shows up to get him, my Johnny didn't do it - I produce theserver logs with Johnny's logon, the sites he went to , the water pipe hepurchased, and dads credit card # - Response Johnny didn't do it! Four weekslater dad show up in the Principals Office to apologize - water pipe inhand. There is a breakdown in society parents' don't get the picture - Getinvolved, raise your children - Educate them. Pete from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Oct 29 17:00:25 2001 f9TN0Oa04935 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:00:24 - (authenticated) Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:59:33 -0800 Rick Crenshaw , Charlie Curro,Ken Cole , Harry Boyd ,Dennis Higham , Mike Biondo Subject: Separation anxiety (SRG) Dearest friends, (this is longish, but I'll get tothe point eventually) My wife and I share our home with a bright and beautifulfourteen year old daughter. Sara is, and will be, our onlychild. Being one of the best students in her class isbeginning to open a few doors of opportunity for her. Shehas a chance at being admitted to the Louisiana School forthe Arts, Sciences, and Mathematics. Should she be admittedand choose to attend during her Junior and Senior years ofHigh School, college scholarship offers should be abundant.Yes, I am proud. But at the same time, I am hesitant. I'm not too sure Ilike the idea of Sara's last two years of High School beingspent away from home. The LSASM is about 2 hours away, andis a residential program. Is any child really ready fordormitory life at 16? Would we still want her there if Tamiand I moved to the Blue Ridge Mountains? Are her mother andI ready for the "empty nest" syndrome? Do the positiveopportunities outweigh the potential risks? These are somequestions with which we are struggling. What we strugglewith might be called separation anxiety. Back in 1997, someone on the Rodmakers list waspromoting either the Roscoe or Grayrock gathering. When Iasked why there were no gatherings in the deep South, DennisHigham and Chris Bogart challenged me to start one. So Idid. We first met in the Riverside Pavilion of Quarry StatePark on the Norfork River, October 1-3, 1998. WayneCattanach's beginner's workshop helped us draw over 40folks, and the Southern Rodmakers Gathering was born. Forthe last three years we've met at Fulton's Lodge on theWhite River with 60 - 80 rodmakers and wannabe's. Because of some potential changes in my own life andwork, and the slight possibility of a relocation, this pastFriday night I announced to the Southern Rodmakers Gatheringthat I am stepping down as the official "Organizer." Thatdecision brings with it a bundle of mixed emotions. I don'tdoubt that the Gathering itself will go forward and becomeeven better than it has in four short years of my blunderingleadership. But speaking from a purely selfish point ofview, I know that letting go of the leadership reigns is notsomething I'm completely ready to do. But do it I must,and the time is right. With emotions similar to those athome as we wrestle with Sara's future, separation anxiety isvery present for me as I give up a job I have loved. The Southern Rodmakers Gathering is giving $5000 fromits proceeds to conservation related efforts. First, $1000goes to a project headed by Mark Van Patten which educateschildren in Missouri about water related conservation, witha strong emphasis on cleaning up our waterways. Another$1000 goes to a similar program for Arkansas children.We're also going to give $3000 to The Nature Conservancywith the stipulation that the moneys be used to assist theirefforts to preserve the White River watershed. Thanks go out to all who make this possible. I'm goingout on a limb to mention names. Please forgive me if Iforget some. When you remind me of omissions, I'll correctoversights. Alan Gnann and REC have been staunch supporterssince 1998. Though they did not make a donation this year,they again offered their generous discount to those who madepurchases at SRG. Thanks Alan. Russ and Erica Gooding atGoldenwitch have been helpful from the beginnings of theirbusiness, and they were extremely generous this year, withdonations and discounts. Thanks Russ and Erica. TerryO'Connor at J. Austin Forbes donated two reels this year.Hal Bacon donated a wonderful reel disguised as a work ofart. Thanks Terry. Thanks Hal. Bob Malucci andPowerFibers donated a bunch of stuff this year. ThanksBob. Nearly everyone who attended donated something to ourSilent Auction, which raised over $2400. Thank you toeveryone who donated something, or bought something. Heck,Jerry Madigan donated a Hardy reel, and he and Dave Collyerdonated a very special, one-of-a-kind original rod with BobNunley's signature on it. Eileen Demarest is now the proudowner. We charged a $30 registration fee. That fee coveredALL the expenses of the weekend, including 4 meals with allthe trimmings for 80+ people ($1000+), a never empty coffeepot, plaques for awards, two huge tents to meet under($600), and all the printing costs. The Lodge rent iscovered by the $110 we charge each person who sleeps there.No one who helped organize this event made a dime, nor havethey ever. All the efforts are volunteered. Every penny from the Silent Auction will be used for donations. We wereeven able to make a $100 contribution in memory of GeorgeAldrich to one of his pet projects. Two people work harder than anyone else to make thisevent such a success. Mike Biondo serves as the treasurer.He collects all the money and pays all the bills. I didthat for two years. Believe me, it's a pain. Thanks Mike.Rick Crenshaw handles all the food. For the life of me Ican't figure out how it gets better every year, but itdoes. Rick does it with style and panache, and makes itlook easy. That's the sign of really good planning andpreparation and hard work. Thanks Rick.I can't fail to thank Dennis Higham, Ken Cole, and UncleChuckie Curro who work behind the scenes in lots ofdifferent ways to make this the best gathering of bamboo rodmakers anywhere, anytime, in the entire world. Love y'all. What was this year's SRG like? Well, the program's were great. Thanks to everyone fromJohn Long who kicked us off on Thursday night, to BillLamberson who wrapped us up Saturday and presented two moreprograms in between.The two Awards were great. No one builds prettier,better casting rods than Al Medved. He deserves the Spiritof Excellence Award. Harold Demarest is the best ambassadorbamboo rods could ever want.And the rods were magnificent. Dennis Higham stocked arack of classic rods, all originals - Paynes, Youngs,Leonards, a Gillum, a Granger, a Dickerson, a T&T, aPhilipson, and a bunch more. What a joy to spend timeactually casting those originals! What was really amazingwas holding a beginning rodmakers first rod, a Perfectionistcopy, next to the real thing. And noticing that the copylooks better, and casts as well, as the original. There aresome really talented makers cropping up in the world ofbamboo. The best fly rods ever made are being made today,no question. And their rods were everywhere this weekend. But the real highlight for me isn't the rods, or thefood, or the programs. It's the people. People you love.Fine people who share similar loves for fine rods fished infine places. New friends with familiar names like TimWilhelm, Larry Blan, Olaf Borge and Jerry Madigan. And oldfriends as comfortable as an old pair of shoes like Haroldand Eileen, Bob and Billie, Al and Carole, Charlie and Milesand Ken and Tony. What I'll miss most about not being incharge of SRG 2002 is all the interactions with all thepeople. You are more than friends, you are my family. Thethought of being distanced from you, even a little bit, isnot pleasant. Every year we say we're going to get togetherand fish a few times during the year, and a very few of usdo. But this gathering is like a family reunion, when weall put aside whatever other plans we have and make eachother top priority. That's what makes this Gathering sounique. If there is a down side to the SRG, it's wonderingwhat's happening with those who couldn't make it, thoughthey tried their best to move heaven and earth. We missedWayne this year. Richard wasn't able to get there. DanCooney was awol. Woodson didn't show. My pal Mortencouldn't make the trip. Perhaps they will join us againsoon. Until then, we missed them. As long as I can, I'll be at every SRG. Because of thepeople. Count on it, Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from flyfish@defnet.com Mon Oct 29 17:38:33 2001 f9TNcWa06936 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:38:32 - for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:38:31 -0500 Subject: Rod Impregnation First you need to find a rod that will love you back LOLJust kidding:)) Read on!No seriously, I read an article in the best of the planning form book. = cap the pipe at both ends.Drill out one cap to except an air valve.then rig a tee so you can put a pressure gauge and a control valve on =it.Wrap heat tape around the pipe. Fill the pipe with resin.heat and add rod blank, then cap and pressurize. I think around 30-40pounds if I'm not mistaken. I'm going on memory here.I think then you are supposed to reverse it and pull a vacuum for a few =hours.Orvis just sets their blanks in a vat of heated resin for a week.It's not a hard process and certainly no secret.You just have to search to find info on it. Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html First you need to find a rod that will = back LOL on! cap the pipe at bothends. valve.then rig a tee so you can put a = Wrap heat tape around the pipe. Fill = resin.heat and add rod blank, then cap and = think around 30-40pounds if I'm not mistaken. I'm going = here.I think then you are supposed to = pull a vacuum for a few hours.Orvis just sets their blanks in a vat = resin for a week.It's not a hard process and certainly = secret.You just have to search to find info on= it. impregnation faster = impregnation.hope it helps Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from rmoon@ida.net Mon Oct 29 17:43:59 2001 f9TNhwa07479 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:43:58 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Bamboo Rod Building Class at FFF Conclave. To whom it may concern. There was someone on the rodmakers list who was very anxious to participate in the rod class. Because of computer troubles, I lost all of my files and i do not remember your name. Will you pleasee get bck to me as soon as possible? Ralph Moon -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium >FromTroy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Mon Oct 29 17:44:21 2001 Received: from f9TNiJa07585 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) by Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 29 Oct 200117:34:29 -0600 Message-ID:From: "Miller, Troy" Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu OK!! Stop with the tomatoes! I was just being antagonistic. I don't reallybelieve what I wrote, I love all fly rods. Especially yours, Mr.(insert your namehere). Warmest regards -- TAM -----Original Message----- From: Miller, Troy Carsten, et al -- Don't bother. Impregnating a cane rod is like giving it avasectomy. Robs its vitality..... That's why Terry won't tell us about it, hereally does have a conscience that he doesn't want us to know about.... TAM-----Original Message----- From: Carsten Jorgensen us, Terry Bret wrote Terry, give the list some insight onimpregnation of rods. I know you are doing this and I for one would like yourobservations on it and how it effects a rod. Now I am not asking yourprocess just some insight. Bret Bret: For years I have tried to persuadeTerry to spill the beans on impregnation. No success yet, but some day.........Come on Terry, be a sport:-))) regards, carsten jorgensen >Fromflyfish@defnet.com Mon Oct 29 17:50:26 2001 Received: from SAA20552 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:50:30-0500 Message-ID: From: flyfish@defnet.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This know I thought I'd add this. For all you guys who like to cook things to death.When I said heat, I didn't mean enough to separate the glue.LOL Just a fairwarning. personally I'd leave the binding thread on until = the process wasfinished. But that's just a guess. Remember I've never = done it before. And Iwould not normally comment on it then ,but I'm = just trying to help. Thought www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html ------ Oh you know I death. When I said heat, Just a fair warning. personally I'd = what I've learned:)) Tony www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html ---- -- channer@frontier.net Mon Oct 29 18:10:12 2001 Received: from f9U0ABa09385 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 2001 17:12:00 -0700 From: channer X-Mailer:Mozilla 4.74 [en]C-CCK-MCD NS4xx/Winxx/EZN (Win95; U) X-Accept- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Hot Press References:Content- Type: channer@frontier.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENWayne; A few years ago Lori Lohman was selling the rod shop equipment thathis father had bought from Bill Arend when he retired. Amongst the otherstuff was a heated hydraulic press to press roughed in strips with, the ramcame down on a large plate that had numerous 60d grooves in it.In order toactually straighten the strips and have them stay that way, you would haveto heat up the press, bring the ram down on the strips, then turn the heatoff until the strips cool. jmho John Wayne Kifer wrote: Gentelmen.It would seem the list is in need of something to chuckle about so Ithough I'd volunteer. I'm currently in the planing stages of buildinga hot press. The intention is to press entire strips under heat ratherthan just the nodes. If correctly constructed I could compress stripsand nodes, create uniform coloring of the cane and heat treat later inthe same unit. I have three questions, that if answered, will save mea good deal of time and expense. I know, if I avoided the entireproject I'd save alot more.1.) At what temperature does ammonium carbonate first becomegaseous?2.) At what temperature does lignin first plasticize?3.) How long must a node be held under pressure to retain it'scompressed state?I have preliminary plans for a press that most anyone could build. orhave built, using relatively inexpensive hydraulics and sustainedtemperatures and heat transfer will dictate final construction plans.Feel free to address these questions on or off list as you choose. Ihave a couple of theories I'm committed to testing so if you plan onattempting to dissuade me from this foolishness please be prepared toexplain why this won't work. We aught to have a little fun with thisone.Wayne :^)) ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct 29 18:18:29 2001 f9U0ITa10043 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:18:29 - ;Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:18:26 +0000 Subject: Re: SRG 2001 Jim, Reread my post after yours and I see where it would seem as though I wassaying Bob wasn't going to heaven, when actually I meant he wasn't going that was well received and laughed at by all, especially Bob. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Jim Bureau wrote: Steve: Make no bones about it, Big Bob Nunley is going to someday, be inheaven. Bob will be running the bamboo rodmaking shop up there, thirdcloud on the left, and their will be no power tools allowed. This Iknow! Jim(except for "the Lord's work", I really don't know if thatis where Bob is going, LOL). from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct 29 18:34:06 2001 f9U0Y5a11136 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:34:05 - Subject: Larry Blan Larry, You will have to send me your address again. I left the card it was onat the table in the coffee cup I bought. No hurry though, I will have tocome up with a decent handle for the item in question. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 29 18:53:01 2001 f9U0r0a12065 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:53:00 - Subject: Re: Snake oil Adam,sure there is good information on the list for hand planers, if that is whatyouwant.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Terry, Wow several months converting a small lathe to cnc? You must have beendoingit the Garrison way. Hey, that finger up my nose, guess which one it is.LOL Keep paying attention to the list because there is a lot of good informationyou can keep adding to your methods. Adam ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: Adam Vigil ; Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 6:05 AMSubject: Re: Snake oil Tony,can't get you going this time?Early days yet!Terry Tony Young wrote: I'm going to sit and watch this for a while [:-)] Funny thing though Terry, I went through the archives and found outyou have not contributed to the pool of information on rodmaking or did I misssomething. If I did please post all of your contributions so the rest of us can catch up with what we have missed from you. Because we allknow that you have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from the listotherwise why else would you be here? If you want to be a valuable contributor ofthe list why dont you tell us a little of your surface impregnation by a vaccumchamber? I mean the rest of us work hard on our craft and share info and you soak it right up!! Adam from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Oct 29 18:58:05 2001 f9U0w4a12421 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:58:04 - Subject: Re: Talk to us, Terry I have no idea what this stuff does, it seems to add no weight (I havelab scales that measure .01/gram) and it does not modify the action ofthe cane as Phenolic resin.I have impregnated strips that have been laying around in my basement snap as if they had just been cooked. I have found a half finished rodunder a pile of heavy junk on a bench and the tip was still straight.I have not made many rods with this process, I have been busy with otherstuff but judging by what I have laying around and the observations Ihave made I am postive it will be worth the extra frigging around.I does seem to prevent moisture absorption, but then again I could bejust kidding myselfTerry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Bret wrote Terry, give the list some insight on impregnation of rods.I know you are doing this and I for one would like yourobservations on it and how it effects a rod. Now I am notasking your process just some insight.BretBret: For years I have tried to persuade Terry to spillthe beans on impregnation.No success yet, but someday......... Come on Terry, be a sport:-))) regards, carstenjorgensen from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 19:09:14 2001 f9U19Da12992 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:09:14 - 29 Oct 2001 17:09:21 PST Subject: Re: Talk to us, Terry soak it in a bucket. this could be intresting. timothy --- "T. Ackland" wrote: I have no idea what this stuff does, it seems to addno weight (I havelab scales that measure .01/gram) and it does notmodify the action ofthe cane as Phenolic resin.I have impregnated strips that have been layingaround in my basement they have the samesnap as if they had just been cooked. I have found ahalf finished rodunder a pile of heavy junk on a bench and the tipwas still straight.I have not made many rods with this process, I havebeen busy with otherstuff but judging by what I have laying around andthe observations Ihave made I am postive it will be worth the extrafrigging around.I does seem to prevent moisture absorption, but thenagain I could bejust kidding myselfTerry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Bret wrote Terry, give the list some insight on impregnation of rods. I know you are doing this and I for one would like your observations on it and how it effects a rod. Now I am not asking your process just some insight.BretBret: For years I have tried to persuade Terry to spill the beans on impregnation.No success yet, but some day......... Come on Terry, be a sport:-))) regards, carsten jorgensen ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from paul@lifeware.com Mon Oct 29 19:17:01 2001 f9U1H0a13622 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:17:00 - c0mailgw12.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.029) (NPlex 5.5.029) Subject: RE: Hot Press John,It's funny you should bring this up. When Lori sold all of the equipment andsupplies from the shop, I bought most of the culms that were on hand. Theyare all pre-WWII cane. I've still got 75 or 80 culms left and at the rate Ibuild, they'll be around for a while. She also included boxes and boxes ofrod blanks and strips in various forms of completion, from glued-up to roughsplit. There are a number of rough planed strips that are not at allstraight. Actually, there aren't ANY straight strips in the bunch. Whichleads me to believe that: (1) The heat press did not work very well, or (2)it never was used for some reason. Does anyone have any insight into this? Iwas also able to find photos of the equipment that she was selling,including the straightner. http://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/straightener.jpghttp://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/straightenerside.jpg Paul Yorkwww.paulyork.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Hot Press Wayne;A few years ago Lori Lohman was selling the rod shop equipment that hisfather had bought from Bill Arend when he retired. Amongst the otherstuff was a heated hydraulic press to press roughed in strips with, theram came down on a large plate that had numerous 60d grooves in it.Inorder to actually straighten the strips and have them stay that way, youwould have to heat up the press, bring the ram down on the strips, thenturn the heat off until the strips cool. jmhoJohn Wayne Kifer wrote: Gentelmen.It would seem the list is in need of something to chuckle about so Ithough I'd volunteer. I'm currently in the planing stages of buildinga hot press. The intention is to press entire strips under heat ratherthan just the nodes. If correctly constructed I could compress stripsand nodes, create uniform coloring of the cane and heat treat later inthe same unit. I have three questions, that if answered, will save mea good deal of time and expense. I know, if I avoided the entireproject I'd save alot more.1.) At what temperature does ammonium carbonate first becomegaseous?2.) At what temperature does lignin first plasticize?3.) How long must a node be held under pressure to retain it'scompressed state?I have preliminary plans for a press that most anyone could build. orhave built, using relatively inexpensive hydraulics and sustainedtemperatures and heat transfer will dictate final construction plans.Feel free to address these questions on or off list as you choose. Ihave a couple of theories I'm committed to testing so if you plan onattempting to dissuade me from this foolishness please be prepared toexplain why this won't work. We aught to have a little fun with thisone.Wayne :^)) ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 from MasjC1@aol.com Mon Oct 29 19:43:50 2001 f9U1hoa14329 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:43:50 - for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:43:46 - Subject: Re: 1 piece Guys, I built the 4' 4" as a one piece with some leftover cane from my first rod. It works great. Nice casting rod for short casts and small streams. It was the second rod I built. It was done as a one piece to save the price of a ferrule. My only regret was my wrap job. I use the same continuos wrap technique that I used when building graphite but without the color preserver. Needless to say you can see the black tipping under the lighter guide wraps. I was too short of time to redo it and still take it fishing that season and so it remains. Thanks to A.J. for the taper. Mark Cole Guys, I built the 4' 4" as a one piece with some leftover cane from my firstrod. It works great. Nice casting rod for short casts and small streams. It of a ferrule. My only regret was my wrap job. I use the same continuos wraptechnique that I used when building graphite but without the color preserver.Needless to say you can see the black tipping under the lighter guide wraps. Iwas too short of time to redo it and still take it fishing that season and so itremains. Thanks to A.J. for the taper. Mark Cole from oandc@email.msn.com Mon Oct 29 19:48:25 2001 f9U1mOa14707 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:48:24 - Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:47:42 -0800 Subject: Fw: Hot Press FILETIME=[DDD972F0:01C160E4] D@&#, Paul.Just when I thought I was on the road to greatness. LOL... Actually, Ienvisioned something considerably smaller with a single groove anvil(interchangeable). Straightening was also secondary to compression underheat. Had the nodes on the strips in question been compressed? The picturesare great. It looks like he was using heating strips on top of the upperplate. This was similar to what I had in mind other than I thought toenclose the press in an insolated oven. Two main chambers heated by a stripin each. I guess since I can't ask him how it worked I'll just have to tryit. "^))Wayne----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Hot Press John,It's funny you should bring this up. >Paul Yorkwww.paulyork.com -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 6:12 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Hot Press Wayne;A few years ago Lori Lohman was selling the rod shop equipment that hisfather had bought from Bill Arend when he retired. > > Wayne Kifer wrote: Gentelmen.It would seem the list is in need of something to chuckle about so Ithough I'd volunteer. ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 from Mark_Dyba@hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 19:50:44 2001 f9U1oha14988 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:50:43 - Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:50:45 -0800 Subject: Re:dry rot FILETIME=[4A57F460:01C160E5] This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of a productthat will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want todisassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paintstores are no help.Mark----- Original Message ----- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4-+AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4-+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- from blitzenrods@yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 19:50:59 2001 f9U1ova15059 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:50:57 - Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:51:01 PST Subject: RE: Hot Press Paul, Could it be that the strips that had been through thehot press were final beveled and glued up andtherefore not among the strips you have? Are any of the rough strips you have triangular inshape? If they are square then they wouldn't havegone through the hot press yet since it appears tohave been designed for triangular strips. I'm trying to imagine how the 60 degree grooved hotpress would have worked. I've seen the pictures ofit. Specifically at what stage it would have beenutilized. Assuming the strips were split out, then hewould have had square strips that would have to bebeveled to triangular before pressing them in hismachine. If they were beveled to triangular withoutthe nodes being straightened I assume he would havegotten some blow ups or at least some ripping at thenodes as it went through the beveler. If he straightened the nodes first then ran themthrough a beveler it would seem the hot press was used which could have been the case. If so, I wonder if heremoved some pith under the nodes to create space forthe pressed material to conform to. A machine likethat would seem to be a lot of work if used forpressing node humps only. If he sawed his strips thereby eliminating the need tostraighten nodes, then perhaps he only used the hotpress to flatten node humps and not straighten them from side to side. Could it be that the machine was for straighteningstrips in general, and not for nodes in particular? Maybe the hot press was a concept he was working onand hadn't actually been put to use. Does anyone know if steam was involved in his hotpress machine? Chris McDowell --- Paul York wrote: John,It's funny you should bring this up. When Lori soldall of the equipment andsupplies from the shop, I bought most of the culmsthat were on hand. Theyare all pre-WWII cane. I've still got 75 or 80 culmsleft and at the rate Ibuild, they'll be around for a while. She alsoincluded boxes and boxes ofrod blanks and strips in various forms ofcompletion, from glued-up to roughsplit. There are a number of rough planed stripsthat are not at allstraight. Actually, there aren't ANY straight stripsin the bunch. Whichleads me to believe that: (1) The heat press did notwork very well, or (2)it never was used for some reason. Does anyone haveany insight into this? Iwas also able to find photos of the equipment thatshe was selling,including the straightner. http://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/straightener.jpg http://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/straightenerside.jpg Paul Yorkwww.paulyork.com -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Of channerSent: Monday, October 29, 2001 6:12 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Hot Press Wayne;A few years ago Lori Lohman was selling the rod shopequipment that hisfather had bought from Bill Arend when he retired.Amongst the otherstuff was a heated hydraulic press to press roughedin strips with, theram came down on a large plate that had numerous 60dgrooves in it.Inorder to actually straighten the strips and havethem stay that way, youwould have to heat up the press, bring the ram downon the strips, thenturn the heat off until the strips cool. jmhoJohn Wayne Kifer wrote: Gentelmen.It would seem the list is in need of something to chuckle about so I though I'd volunteer. I'm currently in the planing stages of building a hot press. The intention is to press entire strips under heat rather than just the nodes. If correctly constructed I could compress strips and nodes, create uniform coloring of the cane and heat treat later in the same unit. I have three questions, that if answered, will save me a good deal of time and expense. I know, if I avoided the entire project I'd save alot more.1.) At what temperature does ammonium carbonate first become gaseous? 2.) At what temperature does lignin first plasticize? 3.) How long must a node be held under pressure to retain it's compressed state?I have preliminary plans for a press that most anyone could build. or have built, using relatively inexpensive hydraulics and sustained temperatures and heat transfer will dictate final construction plans. Feel free to address these questions on or off list as you choose. I have a couple of theories I'm committed to testing so if you plan on attempting to dissuade me from this foolishness please be prepared to explain why this won't work. We aught to have a little fun with this one.Wayne :^)) ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Mon Oct 29 20:04:27 2001 f9U24Qa15754 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:04:26 - OE60tkfxLKVWmDnghyG000190a7+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4-Subject: Re:dry rot Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do thetrick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have a goodboat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please letme know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of aproduct+AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to+AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards andpaint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message ----- +AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- from stpete@netten.net Mon Oct 29 20:04:58 2001 f9U24va15862 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:04:57 - forged)) for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:06:06 - Subject: SRG 2001 Folks, I'm posting this to the list since I don't have all theattendees e-mail addresses. If you get sick of reading SRG stuff, hitthe delete key. If you are an unsociable pain in the @$$, you can hitthe delete key too, TA. We all know the great job Mike Biondo, Harry Boyd, Dennis Higham,Charlie Curro, and Ken Cole do each year. from finances to name tags, from web pages to classic rods, from soliciting donations to providingrods and for all the year round planning and advice, we all owe themthanks. The event would not be what it is without the demonstrationsand I'd like to thank all who participated for their enthusiasm andexpertise (or at least their willingness to share what they know).These guys are listed on the program but I wanted to say thanks again incase I didn't get around to it during the weekend. (Larry, I'm going towork on that Mouse!) Some folks I'd like to thank for just being whothey are and being there.I'd be remiss in my duties as a committee member if I didn't thankeveryone at the Southern Rodmaker's Gathering for all the extra helpthis year. Almost everyone to a man pitched in to move tables, cleartables, pick up trash, and get ready for each change of events. Youguys and gals (and you know who you are) made my weekend even moreenjoyable than usual this year. But there are some who went out oftheir way to make things work so smoothly for me. I'd like to mention afew of their names at the risk of leaving out some really hard workingvolunteers.Thanks go out to Bill Lamberson for not only working overtime indemonstrations, but by helping out in the kitchen, at the grill, and atthe auction, too. Most of all, Bill helped out by coming through with afew pairs of ear plugs which enabled my roomie and I to maintain oursanity. Ken Cole WAS the man on Saturday - all I had to do was takesome undeserved credit for his barbecue grilling skills. Lowell Davistook a load off of the committee by working registration and handlingall that paperwork which I hate. Mark Lang handled the coordination ofthe REC order (blame him, not me!). Jim Hatfield was the real deal inpitching in with every meal. He and Mark Cole saw more lettuce thanthey ever really wanted to. Darrin Curtis, Paul Craig, and SteveTrauthwein are lucky to have all their fingers after all the bread,tomatoes, and onions they sliced. A very, very special thanks to CaroleMedved for her excellent cheesecake desserts and to Bobbi Higham, whobaked a truckload of cookies. They were all fantastic.One of if not THE hit of these events is always the rod rack. Thisyear was a banner year. Thanks to all who brought a rod, but specialthanks go out to Dennis Higham who put together a special collection ofrods, John Long, who brought many of the Grand Experiment rods (thanksto the lenders, too!) and Tom Smithwick, who sent a two strip quad and aspiral rod when he wasn't even an attendee!Finally, thanks to Charlie Curro who recorded the event faithfullyand whose handiwork each year is left for us to peruse at our leisure onhis web pages. That is one job that gets too little credit and the onethat will likely outlive us all. A final word. This list can be much more than a means of reachingout to others with similar interests. The list and these gatherings canbe like a well where people with similar values can draw the sweet waterof friendship. There is something special about these gatherings andthe fine character and quality of the people that attend that restoresones faith in the goodness of people. We need that, especially in thesestressful times. For that, I thank ALL of you. Looking forward to next year,Rick C. P.S. Miles and Charlie, the trout w$@%e is talking up MI with the wife.Prepare! from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Oct 29 20:42:41 2001 f9U2gea16954 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:42:40 - ([209.178.135.185] helo=g2t8c9) id 15yOrT-0004Jo-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:42:43 -0800 Subject: Hollow Built Program Contemplating building a 8'5" 5 wt in the future. Jim Reams of northern =California had one that was just fabulous. It was lighter then the 8' =5wt I had there. The rod was lighter in hand and had a good swing =weight. Now Jim hollow built it all the way into the tip.In Milward book he talks on hollow building and tells how to maintain =the same action by altering the dimensions of the strip. He has a chart =I believe on pg 77,78 were you can extrapolate the dimension depending =on wall thickness. The chart is OK but has anyone the gumption to put =that chart into a program? I think it would be a nice addition to what =is available. You could plug in the dimension of the blank and the =desired wall thickness and it could spit out the change in dimension =need to maintain the same action. I am not a programmer, any volunteers? Adam Vigil Contemplating building a 8'5" 5 wt in = Jim Reams of northern California had one that was just fabulous. It was = then the 8' 5wt I had there. The rod was lighter in hand and had a good = weight. Now Jim hollow built it all the way into the tip.In Milward book he talks on hollow = tells how to maintain the same action by altering the dimensions of the = He has a chart I believe on pg 77,78 were you can extrapolate the = depending on wall thickness. The chart is OK but has anyone the gumption = that chart into a program? I think it would be a nice addition to what = available. You could plug in the dimension of the blank and the desired = thickness and it could spit out the change in dimension need to maintain = same action. I am not a programmer, any =volunteers? AdamVigil from grnmtrods@outdrs.net Mon Oct 29 20:46:42 2001 f9U2kfa17275 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:46:41 - Subject: re; schools and world knowledge warning !rant! As usual ,Reed hit the nail right on the head. Everyone has an agenda . and everyone has an opinion. Jim/Vermont As usual ,Reed hit the nail right on = head. Everyone has an agenda . and everyone= opinion. Jim/Vermont from channer@frontier.net Mon Oct 29 20:54:03 2001 f9U2s2a17596 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:54:02 - for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:59:49 - Subject: Re: Hot Press Paul;I wondered who wound up with that stuff, do you know who got themachinery? I would think that after sitting around in someones basementor wherever for who kinows how long, that even straightened strips wouldgo back to their original bends and kinks and that finished rod sectionsprobably wouldn't fair much better. It is also possible that the stripsyou got had never been straightened. I'm surprised those pictures arestill around, I had them in my old computer, but lost them when I gotthe new one, do you have links to any of the pictures of the millingmachine?john Paul York wrote: John,It's funny you should bring this up. When Lori sold all of the equipment andsupplies from the shop, I bought most of the culms that were on hand.Theyare all pre-WWII cane. I've still got 75 or 80 culms left and at the rate Ibuild, they'll be around for a while. She also included boxes and boxes ofrod blanks and strips in various forms of completion, from glued-up toroughsplit. There are a number of rough planed strips that are not at allstraight. Actually, there aren't ANY straight strips in the bunch. Whichleads me to believe that: (1) The heat press did not work very well, or (2)it never was used for some reason. Does anyone have any insight into this?Iwas also able to find photos of the equipment that she was selling,including the straightner. http://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/straightener.jpghttp://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/straightenerside.jpg Paul Yorkwww.paulyork.com -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 6:12 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Hot Press Wayne;A few years ago Lori Lohman was selling the rod shop equipment that hisfather had bought from Bill Arend when he retired. Amongst the otherstuff was a heated hydraulic press to press roughed in strips with, theram came down on a large plate that had numerous 60d grooves in it.Inorder to actually straighten the strips and have them stay that way, youwould have to heat up the press, bring the ram down on the strips, thenturn the heat off until the strips cool. jmhoJohn Wayne Kifer wrote: Gentelmen.It would seem the list is in need of something to chuckle about so Ithough I'd volunteer. I'm currently in the planing stages of buildinga hot press. The intention is to press entire strips under heat ratherthan just the nodes. If correctly constructed I could compress stripsand nodes, create uniform coloring of the cane and heat treat later inthe same unit. I have three questions, that if answered, will save mea good deal of time and expense. I know, if I avoided the entireproject I'd save alot more.1.) At what temperature does ammonium carbonate first becomegaseous?2.) At what temperature does lignin first plasticize?3.) How long must a node be held under pressure to retain it'scompressed state?I have preliminary plans for a press that most anyone could build. orhave built, using relatively inexpensive hydraulics and sustainedtemperatures and heat transfer will dictate final construction plans.Feel free to address these questions on or off list as you choose. Ihave a couple of theories I'm committed to testing so if you plan onattempting to dissuade me from this foolishness please be prepared toexplain why this won't work. We aught to have a little fun with thisone.Wayne :^)) ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 from paul@lifeware.com Mon Oct 29 20:56:39 2001 f9U2uca17882 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:56:38 - c0mailgw11.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.029) (NPlex 5.5.029) Subject: RE: Hot Press Chris,You bring up some good points. It's been a while since I've looked at thestrips, so I just went out to the shop and dug out some of the boxes to takeanother look. There are strips in various stages of completion that includerough split, un-tapered bevels, tapered strips and glued blanks. Because ofthe grain run-out, I believe all the strips were cut on a mill. The nodesare all hand done either with a sander or a file and there's no relief cut really need a relief cut? By the looks of this press, could that muchpressure cause cell structure damage to the cane? None of the un-taperedstrips have been straightened at all. Which brings up another question, I'venever used a power mill or beveller, but I would think that the strips wouldneed to be straightened before going through the mill? Quite a few of thetapered strips are very straight with flat nodes. By the looks of things,the strips were split and milled with a rough bevel, heated and pressed, andthen run back through the mill for the final taper. hold the cane seem to be rusted and discolored which is a sign of a lotheat. Paul Yorkwww.paulyork.com ------------Chris Wrote--------------Paul, Could it be that the strips that had been through thehot press were final beveled and glued up andtherefore not among the strips you have? Are any of the rough strips you have triangular inshape? If they are square then they wouldn't havegone through the hot press yet since it appears tohave been designed for triangular strips. I'm trying to imagine how the 60 degree grooved hotpress would have worked. I've seen the pictures ofit. Specifically at what stage it would have beenutilized. Assuming the strips were split out, then hewould have had square strips that would have to bebeveled to triangular before pressing them in hismachine. If they were beveled to triangular withoutthe nodes being straightened I assume he would havegotten some blow ups or at least some ripping at thenodes as it went through the beveler. If he straightened the nodes first then ran themthrough a beveler it would seem the hot press was used which could have been the case. If so, I wonder if heremoved some pith under the nodes to create space forthe pressed material to conform to. A machine likethat would seem to be a lot of work if used forpressing node humps only. If he sawed his strips thereby eliminating the need tostraighten nodes, then perhaps he only used the hotpress to flatten node humps and not straighten them from side to side. Could it be that the machine was for straighteningstrips in general, and not for nodes in particular? Maybe the hot press was a concept he was working onand hadn't actually been put to use. Does anyone know if steam was involved in his hotpress machine? Chris McDowell from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Tue Oct 30 00:25:31 2001 f9U6PTa22044 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:25:30 - Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:25:36 +0100 Subject: Re: Talk to us, Terry f9U6PUa22045 Terry We are gettting ever more exited. What IS "this stuff" ?come on, time to reveal the secret. I promise Iwont tell anybody else:-)) regards, Carsten Jorgensen ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Talk to us, Terry I have no idea what this stuff does, it seems to add no weight (I havelab scales that measure .01/gram) and it does not modify the action ofthe cane as Phenolic resin.I have impregnated strips that have been laying around in my basement snap as if they had just been cooked. I have found a half finished rodunder a pile of heavy junk on a bench and the tip was still straight.I have not made many rods with this process, I have been busy with otherstuff but judging by what I have laying around and the observations Ihave made I am postive it will be worth the extra frigging around.I does seem to prevent moisture absorption, but then again I could bejust kidding myselfTerry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Bret wrote Terry, give the list some insight on impregnation of rods.I know you are doing this and I for one would like yourobservations on it and how it effects a rod. Now I am notasking your process just some insight.BretBret: For years I have tried to persuade Terry to spillthe beans on impregnation.No success yet, but someday......... Come on Terry, be a sport:-))) regards, carstenjorgensen from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 04:20:30 2001 f9UAKSa24670 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 04:20:28 - "Rod Makers \(E-mail\)" Subject: RE: schools and world knowledge warning! rant! Something you carry with you on dark nights in strange towns. BTW, what is a water pipe? (Is that used for Terry's impregnationprocess?) Bob /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 04:20:30 2001 f9UAKSa24671 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 04:20:29 - Subject: Re:dry rot You'll laugh but try anti freeze. Serious Tony At 09:02 PM 10/29/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do thetrick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have a goodboat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please letme know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message -----From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw- Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:42 PMSubject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of aproduct+AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to+AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message -----+AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery StatusNotification.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 04:20:32 2001 f9UAKUa24679 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 04:20:31 - Subject: Re: SRG 2001 I don't meant to offend anybody here but all this talk of Bob going to Heaven is bothering me.Firstly it's like when you live near a cemetery, they can't bury you in it if you live there. You know why? They can't bury you till you're dead that's why.Secondly, you're dead a hell of a long time and there are probably minimum behavioral rules to stay, is Heaven the place for you Bob? Tony At 06:19 PM 10/29/01 -0800, Steve Trauthwein wrote: Jim, Reread my post after yours and I see where it would seem as though I wassaying Bob wasn't going to heaven, when actually I meant he wasn't going that was well received and laughed at by all, especially Bob. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Jim Bureau wrote: Steve: Make no bones about it, Big Bob Nunley is going to someday, be inheaven. Bob will be running the bamboo rodmaking shop up there, thirdcloud on the left, and their will be no power tools allowed. This Iknow! Jim(except for "the Lord's work", I really don't know if thatis where Bob is going, LOL). /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Tue Oct 30 04:52:36 2001 f9UAqVa25576 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 04:52:31 - "Tony Young" Subject: Re:dry rot Isn't it toxic to dogs etc.? John K.----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re:dry rot You'll laugh but try anti freeze. Serious Tony At 09:02 PM 10/29/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do thetrick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have a goodboat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please let me know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message -----From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw- Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:42 PMSubject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of a product +AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to+AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message -----+AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. +AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from edriddle@mindspring.com Tue Oct 30 06:13:47 2001 f9UCDka26723 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 06:13:46 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:13:44 - Subject: Re:dry rot FYI:Careful with antifreeze if you have pets. I understand some animals areattracted to it and it's deadly if consumed. I believe there's a non- toxicvariety available but it's relatively new and not the most commonlyavailble.Ed ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re:dry rot You'll laugh but try anti freeze. Serious Tony At 09:02 PM 10/29/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do thetrick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have a goodboat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please let me know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message -----From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw- Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:42 PMSubject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of a product +AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to+AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message -----+AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. +AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from harms1@pa.net Tue Oct 30 07:28:23 2001 f9UDSMa28060 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:28:22 - Subject: OFF-TOPIC Sue me Much depends upon what is meant by "history." If one thinks that historymeans wars, treatys, international influences, Nobel and Pulitzer prizes,medical, scientific and technological milestones, or long lists of politicalheroes (you know, the usual schoolbook stuff), then perhaps some othercountries may seem more "significant" than Canada. I do not regard any of that, however, to be what history really means. Thetrue significance of history is not measured by this "tip of the iceberg"approach to a culture's accomplishments. As an example of what I mean,consider Ken Burns' multi-part, film documentary on America's Civil War. Itis not just the story of Generals, Colonels, the logistics of troopmovements, political speeches, dates and treaties. It is, instead, thestory of two entire cultures and the effects of that war upon the everydayassumptions about what life means--as seen, essentially, through the eyesofordinary people. This means the letters that were written by people who arein no way "famous," songs that were sung, common stories that circulatedamong common people, hopes, beliefs and despair about the meaning of one's"cause," and how these became instilled or transmitted. It means theeffects of climate, how geographic configurations are valued or utilized.It's about ordinary people and how they care about one another. It means the growth and/or collapse of small-town businesses, ruralpractices and patterns that affect the lives and expectations of bothland-owners and working people. It means the roots of change and the socialprice that individuals and families pay wherever they live. History and itssignificace is not to be measured by the relative "importance" of texts weare accustomed to reading in school. It is not to be measured by the 6:00news, the Wall Street Journal, the "Who's Who" listings within a nation'scapital, or the course of various stock exchanges. History is just a story that gets told. And so, the only really importantquestions are: whose story will get told, by whom, and for what purposes?What does a country (culture or society) wish to view as its "history," andwhat notions of "importance" shall we privilege? To me, every culture's history is equally important and rich, and I rejectall claims that one history is more "significant" than the next. Realpeople live real lives in ordinary social settings. Who shall tell whichstories about what that means? What shall we view as "important" when welook back to measure what we are told history means? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Making it look difficult That's a bit harsh on Canada Terry, I mean it's had an interesting if darkhistory I learned in school re. the squabbling between England and France,then Canada and the US and it's Northern state's policies in the earlydays, then Canada and the French again in Quebec (nobody gets along withthe French), the train lines running across the country in response to theUS and it's policies, the Hudsons Bay Co, trappers, indians, Captn Cook,past and present fisheries, natural history etc.Easily as interesting as the US. Tony At 09:37 AM 10/28/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,I do not think kids in North America learn too much about about the restof the world. They get taught that it is ok to be gay and lesbian butvery little about other cultures in the world.Living in Canada, my kids know very little about the rest of the world,all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp.Terry Tony Miller wrote: My last post on this didn't go through, so I'll repost.if the otherone comes through later, oh well? Terry A. wrote:In the light ofrecent events I think it would be better to give highschool students maps of the world and some some insight to differentcustoms,after all there is more to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying out loud, TerryTerry I'm NOT saying you should make it part oftheir normal studies:)) Are you saying you can't know where a placelike Diego Garcia isand not know how to make a bamboo rods at thesametime.Gee, It's a good thing they don't teach anything like woodshop inour school. (which they do) LOLThose poor kids might not know whereOhio is.:))Spoken from a father of an All(and I mean every year) honorroll student. And wow! she(notice I said she)knows how to fly fish andtie flies.How on earth could she know where Afghanistan is and keepall that other stuff in her poor little head too.LOL TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded ourhumanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Tue Oct 30 07:45:48 2001 f9UDjla28585 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:45:47 -0600 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:45:53 -0800 Subject: Mike Clark Hi all,Sometime back I was asked to share the taper of Mike Clark's =Gierach/Best 81/2' 5 wt. I deducted .004 for varnish, this is a =wonderful rod to cast, I've used it on big water such as the Deschutes, =small streams like the St. Vrain, it did quite well for small pinks off =the Queen Charlotte Islands, a good all round rod. Losey 1" - .0805" - .08410" - .09115" - .09620" - .12325 - .14730 - .15935 - .17240 - .18645 - .215491/2 - .22355 - .23960 - .24465 - .26470 - .27275 - .28080 - .30085 - .33890 - .363 Hi all,Sometime back I was asked to sharethe = Mike Clark's Gierach/Best 81/2' 5 wt. I deducted .004 for varnish, this = wonderful rod to cast, I've used it on big water such as the Deschutes, = streams like the St. Vrain, it did quite well for small pinks off the = Charlotte Islands, a good all round rod. Losey 1" - .0805" - .08410" - .09115" - .09620" - .12325 - .14730 - .15935 - .17240 - .18645 - .215491/2 - .22355 - .23960 - .24465 - .26470 - .27275 - .28080 - .30085 - .33890 -.363 from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Oct 30 08:04:33 2001 f9UE4Wa29137 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:04:32 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Just a question that seems relevant: Do we have the right (not legal, but ethical) to take tapers from the rods of living rodmakers and share them without the consent of the originator? And if we do use the tapers, should the originator be acknowledged?-- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ >Fromtjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 08:09:22 2001 Received: from f9UE9La29461 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 Received: from[24.4.255.50] by web11203.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 troester Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN reed,what do you think? is this like sharing fishing grounds? timothy --- ReedCurry wrote: Just a question that seems relevant: Do we have theright (not legal, but ethical) to take tapers from the rods of livingrodmakers and share them without the consent of the originator? And ifwe do use the tapers, should the originator be acknowledged?-- Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 30 08:31:04 2001 f9UEV3a01120 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:31:03 - (authenticated) Tue, 30 Oct 2001 06:30:49 -0800 Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Reed, I think the originator should always be credited. Many of my rods say"Payne 101 taper" or "Leonard 50DF taper" just to the cork side of mysignature. On the other hand, the PHY Smidgen's that came out .015" overthe intended taper don't blame Paul Young for my mistakes. Neither dotapers that I have significantly modified by intention. I'll take the blame Wait a minute, I just re-read your post... You ask about LIVINGrodmakers? I've also built one that says WC93-4, a code for "WayneCattanach, 7' 9" 4 weight". On the other hand, when I converted Wayne'stwo piece 7' 4 weight to a three piece 7.5' 4 weight, I took the blame.Still, in describing that rod I acknowledge that I based the taper onWayne's well-known Sir D rods. Guess I'm trying to say that I always credit the originator, live ordead, for precise copies. When I start fooling around with the tapers, I'lllive with the blame for any mistakes. As far as sharing living makers' tapers w/o their permission, that'sa tough one. For instance, would George Maurer share his "Starlight CreekSpecial" tapers? And if he would not, (just hypothetical) should I mic arod then share it? I really don't know. Harry Reed Curry wrote: Just a question that seems relevant: Do we have the right (not legal,but ethical) to take tapers from the rods of living rodmakers and sharethem without the consent of the originator? -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Oct 30 08:33:17 2001 f9UEXGa01468 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:33:16 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Timothy, No, IMHO, I would equate this to buying a copy of a best-selling book, creating facsimilies and selling them. Not unlike software piracy.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ timothy troester wrote: reed, what do you think? is this like sharing fishinggrounds? timothy from jmpio@nhbm.com Tue Oct 30 08:40:30 2001 f9UEeSa02213 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:40:28 - id ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:44:15 -0700 Subject: RE: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent While I agree with Reed that it is probably not the right thing to do, Iwouldn't rank it quite up there with copyright theft. After all, a rodmakeris selling much more than just his taper. He is selling the quality of hiswork, the cosmetics of the rod, the level of customization he provides, etc.As a legal matter, copying a taper is probably not a problem, unless youwere to go out and sell your rods as "Mike Clark's 7' 4wt." in an attempt totrade on his good name and reputation. Ethically, though, my own opinion isthat we should certainly not be selling rods built to the tapers of livingbuilders, though I don't see any harm in trading the tapers around so thatwe can see what certain builders are doing and learning from that. I alsodon't see anything wrong in building rods to those tapers for our own use,again because it helps us learn about rod building. In every field ofmanufacture, people examine the competitor's products in order to improvetheir own, and I don't see a problem with that. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Timothy, No, IMHO, I would equate this to buying a copy of a best- sellingbook, creating facsimilies and selling them. Not unlike software piracy.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ timothy troester wrote: reed, what do you think? is this like sharing fishinggrounds? timothy from LambersonW@missouri.edu Tue Oct 30 08:52:34 2001 f9UEqYa02894 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:52:34 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:52:39 -0600 Subject: RE: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent What limits should apply here? There may be other aspects to think about.If it is OK to publish the taper on the list without Mike Clark'spermission, is it OK to publish it in a book without his permission? Whatif Mike is himself planning to publish a book or magazine article of histapers to supplement income from building rods and perhaps publicize themaswell. While that isn't a concern for publishing Hiram Leonard's tapers, itcould be from a living maker. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent While I agree with Reed that it is probably not the right thing to do, Iwouldn't rank it quite up there with copyright theft. After all, a rodmakeris selling much more than just his taper. He is selling the quality of hiswork, the cosmetics of the rod, the level of customization he provides, etc.As a legal matter, copying a taper is probably not a problem, unless youwere to go out and sell your rods as "Mike Clark's 7' 4wt." in an attempt totrade on his good name and reputation. Ethically, though, my own opinion isthat we should certainly not be selling rods built to the tapers of livingbuilders, though I don't see any harm in trading the tapers around so thatwe can see what certain builders are doing and learning from that. I alsodon't see anything wrong in building rods to those tapers for our own use,again because it helps us learn about rod building. In every field ofmanufacture, people examine the competitor's products in order to improvetheir own, and I don't see a problem with that. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Timothy, No, IMHO, I would equate this to buying a copy of a best- sellingbook, creating facsimilies and selling them. Not unlike software piracy.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ timothy troester wrote: reed, what do you think? is this like sharing fishinggrounds? timothy from OSEGAL@glcc.com Tue Oct 30 09:22:31 2001 f9UFMTa04723 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:22:30 - with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:22:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Talk to us, Terry Hi Terry, Can you share the specifications of the phenolic resin used? Is it an off =the shelf resin or you formulated it? Thanks, Oscar I have not made many rods with this process, I have been busy with = Hi Terry, Can you share the specifications of the phenolic resin used? Is it an = the shelf resin or you formulated it? Thanks, = weight (I have lab scales that measure .01/gram) and it does not = action of the cane as Phenolic resin. I have impregnated strips = have been laying around in my basement for 3 years and I have checked= regularly and they have the same snap as if they had just been cooked.= have found a half finished rod under a pile of heavy junk on a bench = tip was still straight. I have not made many rods with this process, I = been busy with other stuff but judging by what I have laying around = observations I have made I am postive it will be worth the extra = around. I does seem to prevent moisture absorption, but then again I = be just kidding myself Terry CarstenJ=F8rgensen = the = = from OSEGAL@glcc.com Tue Oct 30 09:22:37 2001 f9UFMZa04754 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:22:36 - with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:22:33 -0500 Subject: Re:dry rot Right on. My daughters favorite cat died after drinking antifreeze I left =in the garage. As most glycols, antifreeze is very sweet, most pets will =not resist the temptation. Oscar attracted to it and it's deadly if consumed. I believe there's a = Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do = trick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have a = boat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- = Hamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on = From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw-Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA- +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of = +AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want = +AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber = /*************************************************************************/= /*************************************************************************/= Right on. My daughters favorite cat died after = antifreeze I left in the garage. As most glycols, antifreeze is very = pets will not resist the temptation. you = pets. I understand some animals are attracted to it and it's deadly = relatively new and not the most commonly availble. Ed -----= < mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyf= = = Monday, = Notification= +AD4- = email.edu= /**********************************************************************= = /**********************************************************************= from caneman@clnk.com Tue Oct 30 09:27:20 2001 f9UFRIa05477 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:27:20 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re:dry rot Yep, it'll kill dogs, cats and even people if you drink enough of it, butthen again, when I have an antifreeze leak in the drive, we don't have tohave a mass burying of neighborhood pets. I'm not sure what amount perbodyweight it takes to kill an animal and how safe it would be for "Tuffy" ifyou put it on the deck... Bill Lamberson??? Peter McKean??? You guys wantto chime in on this one? sure it's still good is to dip your finger in the radiator... if it's stillsweet it's still working. That sweet taste is why animals like it. Oh, butdon't be a swallower, be a spitter. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re:dry rot FYI:Careful with antifreeze if you have pets. I understand some animals areattracted to it and it's deadly if consumed. I believe there's a non-toxic variety available but it's relatively new and not the most commonlyavailble.Ed ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:07 AMSubject: Re:dry rot You'll laugh but try anti freeze. Serious Tony At 09:02 PM 10/29/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do the trick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have a good boat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please let me know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message -----From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw- Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:42 PMSubject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of a product +AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to +AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message -----+AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. +AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from rmoon@ida.net Tue Oct 30 09:29:44 2001 f9UFTha05976 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:29:43 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent ofothers, they have elected to share those, and to use them is not a bad thing others who have seen fit not to have shared their tapers, It is I believe the very least it is an infringement on Mikes livlihood, since the copier workeddamned hard to perfect a couple of tapers, and I would not like to see anyone makerswho have gone to that great rodshop in the sky, anything that even remotely craft. topic Ralph Harry Boyd wrote: Reed, I think the originator should always be credited. Many of my rods say"Payne 101 taper" or "Leonard 50DF taper" just tothe cork side of mysignature. On the other hand, the PHY Smidgen'sthat came out .015" overthe intended taper don't blame Paul Young formy mistakes. Neither dotapers that I have significantly modified byintention. I'll take the blamefor those. Wait a minute, I just re-read your post... You ask about LIVINGrodmakers? I've also built onethat says WC93-4, a code for "WayneCattanach, 7' 9" 4 weight". Onthe other hand, when I converted Wayne'stwo piece 7' 4 weight to athree piece 7.5' 4 weight, I took the blame.Still, in describing that rod Iacknowledge that I based the taper onWayne's well-known Sir Drods. Guess I'm trying to say that I always credit the originator, liveordead, for precise copies. When I start fooling around with the tapers,I'lllive with the blame for any mistakes. As far as sharing livingmakers' tapers w/o their permission, that'sa tough one. For instance,would George Maurer share his "Starlight CreekSpecial" tapers? And ifhe would not, (just hypothetical) should I mic arod then share it? I reallydon't know. HarryReed Curry wrote: Just a question that seems relevant: Do we have the right (notlegal,but ethical) to take tapers from the rods of living rodmakers andsharethem without the consent of the originator? -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ --Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church --. -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 30 09:29:51 2001 f9UFTpa05991 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:29:51 - rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: SRG 2001 Everybody is dying to go there. Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: I don't meant to offend anybody here but all this talk of Bob going to Heaven is bothering me.Firstly it's like when you live near a cemetery, they can't bury you in it if you live there. You know why? They can't bury you till you're dead that's why.Secondly, you're dead a hell of a long time and there are probably minimum behavioral rules to stay, is Heaven the place for you Bob? Tony At 06:19 PM 10/29/01 -0800, Steve Trauthwein wrote: Jim, Reread my post after yours and I see where it would seem as though I wassaying Bob wasn't going to heaven, when actually I meant he wasn't going that was well received and laughed at by all, especially Bob. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Jim Bureau wrote: Steve: Make no bones about it, Big Bob Nunley is going to someday, be inheaven. Bob will be running the bamboo rodmaking shop up there, thirdcloud on the left, and their will be no power tools allowed. This Iknow! Jim(except for "the Lord's work", I really don't know if thatis where Bob is going, LOL). /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from lblove@omniglobal.net Tue Oct 30 09:34:46 2001 f9UFYja06749 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:34:45 - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Hi Reed,here is my take on it, If the tapers numbers where used for a "production run" of rods that would not be good. Even if the original makeris credited with the taper in question, it stillwould cause problems in by mind.ie. Fly by Night's Clark 8' 5wt.If the taper was used toproduce a rod for a maker for personaluse, I see nothing wrong with it. I am guiltyof reproducing copyrighted material for usein the garage as a working copy. I am alsoguilty of reproducing government defense printsas not to damage the original at my former employers shops. If the taper was used in a manner to copy thestress curve on either a shorter or longer rodor to change the line weight for personal use,I dont have a problem with it. I personally dontthink it would be right to market such a rod to anyone in volume, or to even produce it "just for friends"on a limited basis. I make a note to any one that casts a rod thatI have made that my copies of any rod are"based on ___'s taper" but I never claim that the rod I produced was a "____model#____".I sign my rods with my name and the taperthat it is based on be it either a Dickerson or Payne or whomever. All of this brings up the personal problem that I have, I dont sell rods for one simple reason,I have not created any tapers of my own otherthen a "version" of a Payne 101. I still give Payne the credit of the taper being based on his. hope this is not too long and ramblin,Brad *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/30/01 at 9:32 AM Reed Curry wrote: Timothy,No, IMHO, I would equate this to buying a copy of a best-selling book, creating facsimilies and selling them. Not unlike software piracy.Best regards,Reedtimothy troester wrote: reed, what do you think? is this like sharing fishinggrounds? timothy from jerryy@webtv.net Tue Oct 30 09:46:24 2001 f9UFkNa07579 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:46:23 - by mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id HAA06704; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:46:30 - ETAtAhQXiDp2tULqcdIjxBqGSC85pF366gIVALv9bXmo2w8OS0S0b8nup2x3T5W5 Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent 09:32:29 -0500 I believe it might even extend to restorations of rods. Have hadseveral conversations with Mike Sinclair and he always sent his clientsback to the maker if they were still in business.Now with his retirement, due to his unfortunate illness, I have boughtas many pieces of his personal library as I could. A copy of E.Schwiebert's "Trout" is especially illuminating. Mike has marked up allthe pages with what he calls his "marginal thinking". Wish all of theknowledge of the experts could be available in one place. Regards, Jerry Young from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Tue Oct 30 09:54:58 2001 f9UFsua08395 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:54:56 - Subject: Re: Mike Clark Doug,That looks like a 7 wt to me. Have you tried bigger lines on it also? Joseph A. Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith Rd.Portageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Tue Oct 30 09:58:31 2001 f9UFwVa08837 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:58:31 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:58:33 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:48:40 -0600 Subject: RE: dry rot There are many different types of glycol mixtures. Glycol is useful inlowering the freezing point and raising the boiling point of water, whilenot promoting corrosion of metals. Two of the most common are ethyleneglycol (aka -- Prestone), and propylene glycol. The former is relativelytoxic to all animals in small doses. Living on a farm until I was 20, I sawnumerous cats that went on to become ex-cats, presumably from drinkingantifreeze after we had overhauled a tractor engine. We learned not to letthem drink the stuff. The latter, propylene glycol will also resistfreezing at the "normal" water freezing point, but is much less toxic. Infact, when you pull out that half gallon of ice cream tonight, check theingredients. Many creameries use P.G. to keep their ice cream frombecominga brick in the freezer. Back to the original question, will this kill dogs and cats if you use it totreat lumber from rotting? I believe that the amount that would have to beingested (esp. if you use P.G.) would be so great, that they would die fromsplinters in their tongue first. Remember, glycols are totally soluble inwater, so the long term effectiveness of this technique would be suspect ifthe wood was continually exposed to the weather. Rick -- mind throwing this to our wife? [:)] -----Original Message----- Subject: Re:dry rot Yep, it'll kill dogs, cats and even people if you drink enough of it, butthen again, when I have an antifreeze leak in the drive, we don't have tohave a mass burying of neighborhood pets. I'm not sure what amount perbodyweight it takes to kill an animal and how safe it would be for "Tuffy" ifyou put it on the deck... Bill Lamberson??? Peter McKean??? You guys wantto chime in on this one? sure it's still good is to dip your finger in the radiator... if it's stillsweet it's still working. That sweet taste is why animals like it. Oh, butdon't be a swallower, be a spitter. Later, from bamboorods@saber.net Tue Oct 30 10:00:38 2001 f9UG0ba09266 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:00:37 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:00:39 - Subject: Copying tapers Is anyone out there really gonna give any of the builders a run for =their money by copying their tapers? I don't think so. Most makers =dink around on the computer, and dink around in the garage. Then there =is AJ.Chris Is anyone out there really gonna give any of the = there is AJ.Chris from caneman@clnk.com Tue Oct 30 10:05:44 2001 f9UG5ea09840 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:05:40 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent My take. I think it depends on your situation. If you are a hobbyistmaker, making a rod for a friend and you want to use a taper developed by aliving rodmaker for a rod for your use or as a gift to a friend, then by allmeans make the rod.On the other hand, in my situation, I make rods for a living. I don'tthink it's right for me to use George Maurer's Starlight Creek Special orMike Clarks tapers, or Bob Summers Tapers and sell those rods without aletter from one of them that says "Sure Bob, I don't care if you use mytaper and make money on it!". That would be profitting from the work ofothers. There are exceptions to this rule, and those would be makers whofreely share their tapers and just don't care. Wayne does this, so do I....someone wants to use one of my tapers, they are more than welcome to it. Iwould just as soon not have my name on the rod, however. After all, theydid the hard part of it, not me... didn't get any glue on my shirt puttingit together...If a maker freely shares and/or publishes his tapers, fine to usethem... he is giving his permission. If not, then he probably considersthem proprietary and would just as soon that someone else doesn't use histapers, even if they put credit under the varnish, and I hate to say this,but many would prefer that you did NOT put their name on a rod that they didnot make, even if it's only for purposes of crediting them with something.Look at it this way. Say this is your rod #2... you got the tip a littlehotter than you planned while straightening, wrote Billy Bob Rodmaker's nameunder the varnish to credit him with the taper, a few trips of fishing andthe tip breaks... all of a sudden, you have a rod that failed that has areputable makers name written on it, and the first thing someone else isgoing to think is, "Hey, the rest of the rod is beautiful. Tip must'vebroke because it was a bad taper... Hmmmm... says on the rod it's a BillyBob Rodmaker Copy... Remind me never to buy one of old Billy Bob's rodsbecause the tips break on them." Make sense? Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Just a question that seems relevant: Do we have the right (not legal,but ethical) to take tapers from the rods of living rodmakers and sharethem without the consent of the originator? And if we do use the tapers,should the originator be acknowledged?--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from LambersonW@missouri.edu Tue Oct 30 10:33:25 2001 f9UGXOa11493 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:33:24 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:33:32 -0600 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: dry rot Don't leave it out where pets or children can drink it. It does tastesweet. It seems unlikely that your dog will die from licking the deck thatyou treated with it, but do you want a dog with splinters in his tongue? Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Subject: Re:dry rot Yep, it'll kill dogs, cats and even people if you drink enough of it, butthen again, when I have an antifreeze leak in the drive, we don't have tohave a mass burying of neighborhood pets. I'm not sure what amount perbodyweight it takes to kill an animal and how safe it would be for "Tuffy" ifyou put it on the deck... Bill Lamberson??? Peter McKean??? You guys wantto chime in on this one? sure it's still good is to dip your finger in the radiator... if it's stillsweet it's still working. That sweet taste is why animals like it. Oh, butdon't be a swallower, be a spitter. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re:dry rot FYI:Careful with antifreeze if you have pets. I understand some animals areattracted to it and it's deadly if consumed. I believe there's a non-toxic variety available but it's relatively new and not the most commonlyavailble.Ed ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:07 AMSubject: Re:dry rot You'll laugh but try anti freeze. Serious Tony At 09:02 PM 10/29/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do the trick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have a good boat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please let me know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message -----From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw- Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:42 PMSubject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of a product +AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to +AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message -----+AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. +AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from gjm80301@yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 10:48:18 2001 f9UGmIa12525 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:48:18 - Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:48:25 PST Subject: Yet Another SRG 2001 Post I'm not going to try to compete with the Reverend or the Heavenly Onein the prose department, but i wanted to throw my hat in the ringabout the feeling such a gathering invokes. The best way to explain it is to tell you how really weird it seemedto get back on the computer and see some minor bickering going on. It seemed SO foreign to what I had experienced for three days. The organization of SRG was amazing. Just enough time fool aroundbetween events. Even the Fulton's and Blue Ribbon flies folks hadthe feeling. It was worth the trip jsut to see Troy Miller's elegant casting. I'mgonna corner him someday for a little tune-up. There were othergreat casters, but Troy was casting from 7 AM until dark every day,so you couldn't miss him. The rods that got added to my list for the bench were: Paul Young Martha Marie - folks had three of them loaded up with 6weights that really made them sing. One was origianl and I stupidlyforgot who supplied the two copies. Miles Tiernan's Leonard Tournament 8' 3 wgt (on rodmakers) - I havebeen looking for a longish 3 wgt that is not a wimp for anopen-country cutthroat stream and this will fit the bill. Dennis Higham's original Leonard 38H - 7' 4 wgt. Smooth as silk (andI didn't bven put silk on it). Steve Trauthwein's FE Thomas 7'6" 4 wgt - a smooth 4 wgt for mediumto smaller streams. Bob Nunley's 5'6" and 7'0" cutthroat series 4 wgts. Just fun tocast. PS. Don't let Rick Crenshaw off the food assignment - it was great. Jerry __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Oct 30 11:09:58 2001 f9UH9va14203 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:09:57 - Subject: Re: Talk to us, Terry Carsten you will have to find your own impregnant for the following reasons.I am now working as a full time rod maker since becoming a victim of the hightech downturn. This ok, I hated the job but had too much time invested tojustquit so this was a real bonus. I have walked away with a severance packagewhich should keep me going until the rods get on the shelves.Several years ago I had an idea that bamboo rods would become popular againand I knew that to take advantage of this I had to get away from hand planingand use machines I gave up rodmaking and concentrated on building amodernbeveller that worked different to those I had seen and also to experimentingwith resins that made cane a little less prone to moisture. I took it easy,made a lot of mistakes and just tinkered, I did not need rod money.I have not made that many rods recently so I will have to try to capture backthe market I had before. I am not sure how easy this is going to be because Icannot profess to be making the best rods in the world like you guys andthereare more of you! I think I will be able to supply an inexpensive cane rod witha performance level that will be better than most and will be available in areasonable quantity.I am trying to get away from the one man rodshop scenario and into plannedmanufacturing where is best way is usually the fastest way.My background has always been manufacturing and not the arts.Terry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry We are gettting ever more exited. What IS "this stuff" ?come on, time to reveal the secret. I promise Iwont tell anybody else:-)) regards, Carsten Jorgensen ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 1:59 AMSubject: Re: Talk to us, Terry I have no idea what this stuff does, it seems to add no weight (I havelab scales that measure .01/gram) and it does not modify the action ofthe cane as Phenolic resin.I have impregnated strips that have been laying around in my basement snap as if they had just been cooked. I have found a half finished rodunder a pile of heavy junk on a bench and the tip was still straight.I have not made many rods with this process, I have been busy with otherstuff but judging by what I have laying around and the observations Ihave made I am postive it will be worth the extra frigging around.I does seem to prevent moisture absorption, but then again I could bejust kidding myselfTerry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Bret wrote Terry, give the list some insight on impregnation of rods.I know you are doing this and I for one would like yourobservations on it and how it effects a rod. Now I am notasking your process just some insight.BretBret: For years I have tried to persuade Terry to spillthe beans on impregnation.No success yet, but someday......... Come on Terry, be a sport:-))) regards, carstenjorgensen from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Oct 30 11:40:41 2001 f9UHeda16282 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:40:40 - Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Sue me Bill,history reflects the age of a country or the recorded history at least. KenBurns (yawn) can make American history documetaries last forever but thesimplefact is that the New World does't have much history.Terry WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Much depends upon what is meant by "history." If one thinks that historymeans wars, treatys, international influences, Nobel and Pulitzer prizes,medical, scientific and technological milestones, or long lists of politicalheroes (you know, the usual schoolbook stuff), then perhaps some othercountries may seem more "significant" than Canada. I do not regard any of that, however, to be what history really means. Thetrue significance of history is not measured by this "tip of the iceberg"approach to a culture's accomplishments. As an example of what I mean,consider Ken Burns' multi-part, film documentary on America's Civil War. Itis not just the story of Generals, Colonels, the logistics of troopmovements, political speeches, dates and treaties. It is, instead, thestory of two entire cultures and the effects of that war upon theeverydayassumptions about what life means--as seen, essentially, through the eyesofordinary people. This means the letters that were written by people whoarein no way "famous," songs that were sung, common stories that circulatedamong common people, hopes, beliefs and despair about the meaning ofone's"cause," and how these became instilled or transmitted. It means theeffects of climate, how geographic configurations are valued or utilized.It's about ordinary people and how they care about one another. It means the growth and/or collapse of small-town businesses, ruralpractices and patterns that affect the lives and expectations of bothland-owners and working people. It means the roots of change and thesocialprice that individuals and families pay wherever they live. History and itssignificace is not to be measured by the relative "importance" of texts weare accustomed to reading in school. It is not to be measured by the 6:00news, the Wall Street Journal, the "Who's Who" listings within a nation'scapital, or the course of various stock exchanges. History is just a story that gets told. And so, the only really importantquestions are: whose story will get told, by whom, and for what purposes?What does a country (culture or society) wish to view as its "history," andwhat notions of "importance" shall we privilege? To me, every culture's history is equally important and rich, and I rejectall claims that one history is more "significant" than the next. Realpeople live real lives in ordinary social settings. Who shall tell whichstories about what that means? What shall we view as "important" whenwelook back to measure what we are told history means? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:22 PMSubject: Re: Making it look difficult That's a bit harsh on Canada Terry, I mean it's had an interesting if darkhistory I learned in school re. the squabbling between England and France,then Canada and the US and it's Northern state's policies in the earlydays, then Canada and the French again in Quebec (nobody gets alongwiththe French), the train lines running across the country in response to theUS and it's policies, the Hudsons Bay Co, trappers, indians, Captn Cook,past and present fisheries, natural history etc.Easily as interesting as the US. Tony At 09:37 AM 10/28/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,I do not think kids in North America learn too much about about therestof the world. They get taught that it is ok to be gay and lesbian butvery little about other cultures in the world.Living in Canada, my kids know very little about the rest of the world,all they have learned is Canadian history, which you can write on theback of a postage stamp.Terry Tony Miller wrote: My last post on this didn't go through, so I'll repost.if the otherone comes through later, oh well? Terry A. wrote:In the light ofrecent events I think it would be better to give highschool students maps of the world and some some insight todifferentcustoms,after all there is more to life than rod making , hamburgerhelper and Hanukkah.Crying out loud, TerryTerry I'm NOT saying you should make it part oftheir normal studies:)) Are you saying you can't know where a placelike Diego Garcia isand not know how to make a bamboo rods at thesametime.Gee, It's a good thing they don't teach anything like woodshop inour school. (which they do) LOLThose poor kids might not know whereOhio is.:))Spoken from a father of an All(and I mean every year)honorroll student. And wow! she(notice I said she)knows how to fly fish andtie flies.How on earth could she know where Afghanistan is and keepall that other stuff in her poor little head too.LOL TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded ourhumanity. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Oct 30 11:48:55 2001 f9UHmsa16985 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:48:54 - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Reed and list,I agree with Reed on this. It is like buying a CD and copying it for you and your friends and then selling the CD as used. Not only have you cheated the recording artist out of 3 sales I think it may be illegal. So taking a living rodmakers tapers and sharing them with someone else so they canbuild it and possibly sell the finished rod; I think no without permission. Now I do see this as an honest mistake and one that was maybe not thoughtout before hand, but we SHOULD NOT blast anyone on this list that did this act of sharing. AND NO I do not think anyone should be running back to Mike Clark either, as I know this has happened. Bret Reed and list, you cheated the recording artist out of 3 sales I think it may be illegal. else so they can build it and possibly sell the finished rod; I think no without Now I do see this as an honest mistake and one that was maybe notthought out before hand, but we SHOULD NOT blast anyone on this list that back to Mike Clark either, as I know this has happened. Bret from irish-george@chartermi.net Tue Oct 30 12:08:39 2001 f9UI8da18559 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:08:39 - Subject: Re: Atlas parts If I were looking for those parts, I'd try:1) Plaza Machinery in Connecticut (they advertise in classifieds in HomeShop Machinist magazine)2) Clausing (they have a website, too)3) Meridian Machinery (www.mermac.com) Good luck & usual disclaimer (no financial interest in any of the above)George ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Fw: Atlas parts Hi GangI need front and rear bearings for an Atlas lathe.Only markings on itare10D-24CCould anyone put me on the right track as to where and if these parts areavailable?TIA Brian from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Tue Oct 30 12:16:04 2001 f9UIG3a19383 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:16:03 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:05:08 -0600 Subject: RE: Yet Another SRG 2001 Post Dang, Jerry, thanks for the kind words. All I can say is THANK YOU to allthe guys who supplied the awesome rods. I was like the kid in the candystore. Everyone talks about the "letdown" that they feel after leaving agathering, and how they look forward to next year's. Well I wanna know thedates of next year's SRG. I have to be sure I get it blocked out asvacation, or quit my job! Seriously, next year, if anyone wants to, we can do a day-long castingclinic either the day before or after SRG. I'd be happy to coordinate it,and if Ken, David, and anyone else would be willing to assist, we could getsome ideas flowing that I believe would make us all better casters. I wantto learn to cast the paras better. I was working on it with that Para 14 Ithink that Dennis brought, and I was sort getting the hang of it. But itstill feels a little freaky to me.... No offense to all you para lovers outthere! I will second the motion about the favorite rods there. I loved the Nunleyrods (again), the 38H was absolutely sweet (thanks Dennis), Barry Bauer'spair of PHY Martha Marie replicas, and Al Medved's incomparable pairs ofnodeless rods. Not to start any wars on the topic, but I've re-thought somethings about the effects of flaming cane after casting those identicallymatched pairs (aside from blonde vs. flamed). Jerry, you are absolutely right. I feel ashamed about coming back from sucha great event and picking about the impregnated rods yesterday. I was justkidding, but I've been a hypocrite to complain about others who are notconstructive and supportive. I retract my bad humor, and apologize for it.Y'all are my brothers, and I don't mean harm to any of you. Please let meknow if I can do anything to repay for all y'all have given me. Warmestregards -- TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: Yet Another SRG 2001 Post I'm not going to try to compete with the Reverend or the Heavenly Onein the prose department, but i wanted to throw my hat in the ringabout the feeling such a gathering invokes. The best way to explain it is to tell you how really weird it seemedto get back on the computer and see some minor bickering going on. It seemed SO foreign to what I had experienced for three days. The organization of SRG was amazing. Just enough time fool aroundbetween events. Even the Fulton's and Blue Ribbon flies folks hadthe feeling. It was worth the trip jsut to see Troy Miller's elegant casting. I'mgonna corner him someday for a little tune-up. There were othergreat casters, but Troy was casting from 7 AM until dark every day,so you couldn't miss him. The rods that got added to my list for the bench were: Paul Young Martha Marie - folks had three of them loaded up with 6weights that really made them sing. One was origianl and I stupidlyforgot who supplied the two copies. Miles Tiernan's Leonard Tournament 8' 3 wgt (on rodmakers) - I havebeen looking for a longish 3 wgt that is not a wimp for anopen-country cutthroat stream and this will fit the bill. Dennis Higham's original Leonard 38H - 7' 4 wgt. Smooth as silk (andI didn't bven put silk on it). Steve Trauthwein's FE Thomas 7'6" 4 wgt - a smooth 4 wgt for mediumto smaller streams. Bob Nunley's 5'6" and 7'0" cutthroat series 4 wgts. Just fun tocast. PS. Don't let Rick Crenshaw off the food assignment - it was great. Jerry __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 30 12:24:18 2001 f9UIOIa20103 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:24:18 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:24:22 -0500 Subject: Re:Sharing /using tapers without I see alot of logic on both sides of the coin on this subject.But Bret on this one I must disagree with you. SORRY guy, your my Bud so =I know you will under stand:))I think Bob N. is a little closer to the way I feel but still notall the way.You can't really compare a taper to a musicians artistry.You can compare a rod in whole to it ,but not a taper .And here is why:First as Bob N. has said some makers don't care.But even if they cared it would not make much difference.Lets say the first guy who played an G chord on Guitar said " that's a =great Idea,no body else can play G chords from now on".There would be no music for a band to make original in the first place.A taper is a generalized thing like a G chord. Here is another example:lets say you make a tire and patent it.I can make a tire too, it just has to be slightly different.It however can be a tire , round, made of rubber , a similar tread =design.I'm sure the first rubber tire held a patent, but probably so did the =first Bamboo rod.So it may be common courtesy to ask ,but its not mandatory.If everyone had to go through asking for a taper there would only be =about two of us on this list.:))And how do you ask permission from makers who have passed away?Have all you guys out there (myself included) paid royalties or asked =permission (to make a Rattan grip) from the Krider family?Has anyone that has seen mine Asked me permission to make one like mine?=Have I asked Doug Kulic for permission to make a Rattan grip?Answer to all these questions NO.What is the difference from this or a taper?Infact a taper is more generalized than a grip.This is all in the good spirit of debate so please no lawyer comments =LOL I certainly respect the opinions of those who disagree and welcome =all mature response.Well hell I even welcome Terry's response LOL fire away dude LOL:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html I see alot of logic on both sides of = this subject.But Bret on this one I must disagree = stand:))I think Bob N. is a little closer to = I feel but still notall the way.You can't really compare a taper to a = artistry.You can compare a rod in whole to it = taper .And here is why:First as Bob N. has said some makers = care.But even if they cared it would not = difference.Lets say the first guy who played an G= Guitar said " that's a great Idea,no body else can play G chords from = on".There would be no music for a band to = in the first place.A taper is a generalized thing like = chord.You can't patent a dimension. = Here is another example:lets =say you make a tire and patent it.I can make a tire too, it just has to = different.It however can be a tire , round, made = a similar tread design.I'm sure the first rubber tire held a = probably so did the first Bamboo rod.So it may be common courtesy to ask = mandatory.If everyone had to go through asking = there would only be about two of us on this list.:))And how do you ask permission from = passed away?Have all you guys out there (myself = family?Has anyone that has seen mine Askedme = Rattan grip?Answer to all these questions =NO.What is the difference from = taper?Infact a taper is more generalized than= grip.This is all in the good spirit of = = those who disagree and welcome all mature response. fire away dude LOL:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 30 12:35:04 2001 f9UIZ3a20996 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:35:03 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:35:09 -0500 Subject: Oops ! Sorry guys for that slight little bad word at the end of my last post.I sincerely apologize if that word offended anyone.I forgot to put the little x's in before I hit sendmy sincere apologiesTony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Sorry guys for that slight little bad = end of my last post. = anyone.I forgot to put the little x's in = sendmy sincere apologiesTony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Oct 30 12:48:47 2001 f9UImka21943 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:48:46 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Talk to us, Terry Terry, Congratulations on being severed from what was an unpleasant job. I experienced the same thing this year and it was a relief (now I need to find more employment...drat!). As to divulging trade secrets, we all understand that these are yours, bought with plenty of sweat. I hope you don't feel that anyone was pressuring you over this, I'm pretty certain it was all meant in fun. Good luck in your new (old) career. Fortunately, you have the dollar on your side. If any of us can help, just shout.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ T. Ackland wrote: Carsten you will have to find your own impregnant for the followingreasons.I am now working as a full time rod maker since becoming a victim of thehightech downturn. This ok, I hated the job but had too much time invested tojustquit so this was a real bonus. I have walked away with a severance packagewhich should keep me going until the rods get on the shelves.Several years ago I had an idea that bamboo rods would become popularagainand I knew that to take advantage of this I had to get away from handplaningand use machines I gave up rodmaking and concentrated on building amodernbeveller that worked different to those I had seen and also toexperimentingwith resins that made cane a little less prone to moisture. I took it easy,made a lot of mistakes and just tinkered, I did not need rod money.I have not made that many rods recently so I will have to try to capturebackthe market I had before. I am not sure how easy this is going to be becauseIcannot profess to be making the best rods in the world like you guys andthereare more of you! I think I will be able to supply an inexpensive cane rod witha performance level that will be better than most and will be available in areasonable quantity.I am trying to get away from the one man rodshop scenario and intoplannedmanufacturing where is best way is usually the fastest way.My background has always been manufacturing and not the arts.Terry from harms1@pa.net Tue Oct 30 12:54:41 2001 f9UIsea22349 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:54:40 - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Carsten_J=F8rgensen?= Subject: Re: Talk to us, Terry All, Come on, now, fellas. Terry has something to protect here that is not quitethe same as with the rest of us. Surely, that's fair. Just because one isa member of this list, one needn't feel obliged (or bullied) to shareeverything. Certainly, each of us should be entitled the freedom to shareor to withhold as each of us sees fit. We all have our good reasons. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Talk to us, Terry Carsten you will have to find your own impregnant for the following reasons. I am now working as a full time rod maker since becoming a victim of the high tech downturn. This ok, I hated the job but had too much time invested to just quit so this was a real bonus. I have walked away with a severance package which should keep me going until the rods get on the shelves.Several years ago I had an idea that bamboo rods would become popular again and I knew that to take advantage of this I had to get away from hand planing and use machines I gave up rodmaking and concentrated on building a modern beveller that worked different to those I had seen and also to experimenting with resins that made cane a little less prone to moisture. I took it easy, made a lot of mistakes and just tinkered, I did not need rod money.I have not made that many rods recently so I will have to try to capture back the market I had before. I am not sure how easy this is going to be because I cannot profess to be making the best rods in the world like you guys and there are more of you! I think I will be able to supply an inexpensive cane rod with a performance level that will be better than most and will be available in a reasonable quantity.I am trying to get away from the one man rodshop scenario and intoplannedmanufacturing where is best way is usually the fastest way.My background has always been manufacturing and not the arts.Terry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry We are gettting ever more exited. What IS "this stuff" ?come on, time to reveal the secret. I promise Iwont tell anybody else:-)) regards, Carsten Jorgensen ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 1:59 AMSubject: Re: Talk to us, Terry I have no idea what this stuff does, it seems to add no weight (I havelab scales that measure .01/gram) and it does not modify the actionofthe cane as Phenolic resin.I have impregnated strips that have been laying around in my basement snap as if they had just been cooked. I have found a half finished rodunder a pile of heavy junk on a bench and the tip was still straight.I have not made many rods with this process, I have been busy with other stuff but judging by what I have laying around and the observations Ihave made I am postive it will be worth the extra frigging around.I does seem to prevent moisture absorption, but then again I could bejust kidding myselfTerry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Bret wrote Terry, give the list some insight on impregnation of rods.I know you are doing this and I for one would like yourobservations on it and how it effects a rod. Now I am notasking your process just some insight.BretBret: For years I have tried to persuade Terry to spillthe beans on impregnation.No success yet, but someday......... Come on Terry, be a sport:-))) regards, carstenjorgensen from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Tue Oct 30 12:57:35 2001 [66.133.130.237] (may be forged)) f9UIvZa22662 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:57:35 - sender ) Subject: Re:Sharing /using tapers without I also agree with Tony, I would prefer to not have my name on any rods =(not that anyone would) except the ones I have built. The only =exception I can see is to identify the taper as a common one, like a =Payne 101 or a Leonard etc., but I think the motivation would be more = Tom Ausfeld Subject: Re:Sharing /using tapers without I see alot of logic on both sides of the coin on this subject.But Bret on this one I must disagree with you. SORRY guy, your my Bud =so I know you will under stand:))I think Bob N. is a little closer to the way I feel but still notall the way.You can't really compare a taper to a musicians artistry.You can compare a rod in whole to it ,but not a taper .And here is why:First as Bob N. has said some makers don't care.But even if they cared it would not make much difference.Lets say the first guy who played an G chord on Guitar said " that's a =great Idea,no body else can play G chords from now on".There would be no music for a band to make original in the first =place.A taper is a generalized thing like a G chord. Here is another example:lets say you make a tire and patent it.I can make a tire too, it just has to be slightly different.It however can be a tire , round, made of rubber , a similar tread =design.I'm sure the first rubber tire held a patent, but probably so did the =first Bamboo rod.So it may be common courtesy to ask ,but its not mandatory.If everyone had to go through asking for a taper there would only be =about two of us on this list.:))And how do you ask permission from makers who have passed away?Have all you guys out there (myself included) paid royalties or asked =permission (to make a Rattan grip) from the Krider family?Has anyone that has seen mine Asked me permission to make one like =mine? Have I asked Doug Kulic for permission to make a Rattan grip?Answer to all these questions NO.What is the difference from this or a taper?Infact a taper is more generalized than a grip.This is all in the good spirit of debate so please no lawyer comments =LOL I certainly respect the opinions of those who disagree and welcome =all mature response.Well hell I even welcome Terry's response LOL fire away dude LOL:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html I also agree with Tony, I would prefer to not have = exception I can see is to identify the taper as a common one, like a = than respect to the originator. Tom Ausfeld ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001= PMSubject: Re:Sharing /using = without I see alot of logic on both sides of = this subject.But Bret on this one I must disagree = stand:))I think Bob N. is a little closer to = way I feel but still notall the way.You can't really compare a taper to a = artistry.You can compare a rod in whole to it = taper .And here is why:First as Bob N. has said some makers = care.But even if they cared it would not = difference.Lets say the first guy who played an = Guitar said " that's a great Idea,no body else can play G chords from = on".There would be no music for a band to = original in the first place.A taper is a generalized thing like = chord.You can't patent a dimension. = Here is another example:lets =say you make a tire and patent it.I can make a tire too, it just has to = different.It however can be a tire , round, = , a similar tread design.I'm sure the first rubber tire held a = probably so did the first Bamboo rod.So it may be common courtesy to ask = mandatory.If everyone had to go through asking = there would only be about two of us on this list.:))And how do you ask permission from = have passed away?Have all you guys out there (myself = paid royalties or asked permission (to make a Rattan grip) from the = family?Has anyone that has seen mine Asked = Rattan grip?Answer to all these questions =NO.What is the difference from = taper?Infact a taper is more generalized = grip.This is all in the good spirit of = = opinions of those who disagree and welcome all mature =response. LOL fire away dude LOL:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from Dkenney94@cs.com Tue Oct 30 13:02:02 2001 f9UJ22a23169 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:02:02 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:01:43 - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent But what is an original/ proprietry taper? If I add .002 per station to a Garrison, is that my own taper? It is and it ain't. I once worked up a taper from scratch (never again!!!!) 5 years later I bought Jack Howell's book and looking over the tapers, there it was ,except for .001 in tip dimension & some minor difference at ferrule stations. Who's taper is that, mine or Pinkies' ? I think a lot of makers are delusional about their tapers being original, kind of like fly tiers who "developed" a "new" pattern. (This ought to win me some friends!) I think of tapers as a recipe. The cook has a lot to do with the final product. Dave If I add .002 per station to a Garrison, is that my own taper? It is and it ain't. bought Jack Howell's book and looking over the tapers, there it was ,except makers are delusional about their tapers being original, kind of like fly tierswho "developed" a "new" pattern. (This ought to win me some friends!) of tapers as a recipe. The cook has a lot to do with the final product. from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Tue Oct 30 13:07:37 2001 f9UJ7aa23634 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:07:36 - Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:07:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Yet Another SRG 2001 Post Just got back to Charlotte. Was it worth the 32+ hours that I spent behindthe wheel? You Bet! Learned quite a bit at the various classes butprobably more talking with the other rodmakers there. Saw and cast somebeautiful rods. My thanks to the organizers of the event. The only question I have now is - "Is it too early to register for nextyear?" We'll see you then. Tim from harms1@pa.net Tue Oct 30 13:12:41 2001 f9UJCea24126 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:12:40 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:11:21 - Subject: request for info. I have two questions for listmembers. First, I am wondering if any of you could shed light on Robert Crompton, arodmaker from St. Paul, Minnesota who worked during the first third of the20th century. I see several of the "old masters" making passing references to Crompton asbeing an excellent builder with great ideas, yet I have not been able tolearn any specifics. Did Crompton publish anything, I wonder, or correspondwith any of the other better-known makers? Does anyone know anythingabouthis rod-making practices? Secondly, would any of you happen to have access to any of the old Herters'catalogues, specifically from the early 1950s? Or, if not, could someoneguide me to a possible source? Contact me off-list, it you think that to be more appropriate. Thanks, Bill from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 30 13:22:12 2001 f9UJMBa24755 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:22:12 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:22:17 -0500 Subject: Re:sharing /using tapers Excellent point Dave:))many tapers are very similar only to be different by a thousand or two That's like saying our company slices it's cheese to a half inch.No way can another company slice cheese at a half inch.and if you slice it to .502 that's too close to call it different.So it may not be original,but that should not stop you from making and =selling a rod.(or cheese if you like LOL)your taper that is close to pinky's is just that, a taper dimension.I hardly believe pinky would care ,but on the other hand if you made a =rod that duplicated his on every level he might care then.:))Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Excellent point Dave:))many tapers are very similar only to be= in a few That's like saying our company slices = to a half inch.No way can another company slicecheese = inch.and if you slice it to .502 that's too = call it different.So it may not be original,but that = you from making and selling a rod.(or cheese if you like =LOL) that, a taper dimension.I hardly believe pinky would care ,but = then.:))Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from ajthramer@hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 13:33:26 2001 f9UJXQa25483 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:33:26 - Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:33:21 -0800 Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:33:21 GMT Subject: Tapers FILETIME=[BC0B7890:01C16179] A few thoughts, I have posted several tapers to the list and these are available for use by all. I have also posted several tapers to an individual, these are meant for the personal use of the recipient. Otherwise I would have posted them to the list. I must say that the brains behind the websites where such things are available have ALWAYS e-mailed and asked for permission to post them tothe list. I would not use a taper from a living builder and offer it for sale. These are how a living is sometimes made. This leads to my misunderstood post ofa few months ago, there is a difference in legal and moral. It is not illegal to use a taper from a living professional. You must also consider coincidence, my 8ft 5wt 3/2 taper is a ringer for a Payne 201. That taper was worked out by trial and error in the mid 80's without reference to ANY classic taper. Compare a Granger 8 1/2ft to a Payne 204. I KNOW thattapers were appropriated and used proffesionaly by even 'big name' builders in the past. Even prewar it was common. A final note to those who don't think it makes a difference, I was selling 8-10 of my 4'4" rods per year until about a month after I posted the taper to the list. It has been at least 18mo and I have sold only one of them. Coincidence? Maybe. In the outside world tastes have changed away from the predominence of short rods back to fishing rods again. Was there anything wrong with all those who used the taper? Abolutely not, it was freely given A.J. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 30 13:34:38 2001 f9UJYba25732 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:34:37 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:34:42 -0500 Subject: Re:sharing/using tapers Tom, also another good point.While some do credit the original makers , I think that's like my 13 yr =old daughter coming to me and saying "I love you Dad, can I have 10 =dollars " I know she loves me ,but at the moment her motivation is =getting some money,and she will say anything to get it. LOLSure the respect is there, but it doesn't hurt to be associated with a =big name either.BTW did I tell you guys my great ,great ,great grandfather made rods for =the king :)) LOL LOL www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Tom, also another good =point.While some do credit the original = think that's like my 13 yr old daughter coming to me and saying "I love = LOLSure the respect is there, but it = be associated with a big name either.BTW did I tell you guys my great ,great= Tony Miller www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Oct 30 13:37:16 2001 f9UJbFa26097 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:37:16 - Subject: Re: Sharing /using tapers without I stand corrected on this one guys. After reading what Tony wrote I seewhat he is saying about the taper issue. Now the copying a CD; that is another matter. OH Yeh Tony such language.LOLBret I stand corrected on this LOLBret from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Oct 30 13:43:16 2001 f9UJhFa26620 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:43:15 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: request for info. Bill, Krieder was a disciple of Crompton's. I'm not aware that Crompton published anything, but he was a strong advocate of pentas. Apart from remarks in McClane's books and Herter's Rodmaking book, I can't recall any references to Crompton. [Herter said Crompton used 4 guides on his mids, five on his tips, but none on his butts, e.g., no stripper.] ebay is usually a good source for old Herter's catalogues.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/WILLIAM HARMS wrote: I have two questions for listmembers. First, I am wondering if any of you could shed light on Robert Crompton, arodmaker from St. Paul, Minnesota who worked during the first third of the20th century. I see several of the "old masters" making passing references to Cromptonasbeing an excellent builder with great ideas, yet I have not been able tolearn any specifics. Did Crompton publish anything, I wonder, orcorrespondwith any of the other better-known makers? Does anyone know anythingabouthis rod-making practices? Secondly, would any of you happen to have access to any of the oldHerters'catalogues, specifically from the early 1950s? Or, if not, could someoneguide me to a possible source? Contact me off-list, it you think that to be more appropriate. Thanks, Bill -- > from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 30 13:43:17 2001 Received: from OAA27277 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:43:22-0500 Message-ID: From: flyfish@defnet.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This certainly correct on the CD copying.:)) CD's should NOT be pirated , I have www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html ------ You are certainly own. best bambooshop/home.html ------ Tue Oct 30 13:51:01 2001 Received: from ispram.clnk.com (mail.clnk.com ispram.clnk.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0- 0600 Message-ID: From: References:Subject: Re:Sharing /using caneman@clnk.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This Hmmmm... well, in a bit of disagreement... as a guitarist, a G chord is = morelike a 7 foot rod, not like a taper... nobody ever threw away = dozens ofguitars trying to develop a new chord, where the trashing of = dozens ofrods over literally thousands of hours of work is not unusual = in developing ataper. I guess what I'm saying is that anyone can make = a 7 foot rod (or a GChord)... not anyone can design a particular taper = (or guitar) to make a rodperform in a particular way. That being the = case, it should be more thanjust common courtesy for us to either ask = permission or acknowledgethose living makers who have spent those = countless hours developingthem, it should be "just the way it is". A length is a generalized thing like a between a Martin = guitar and a Taylor. Start making guitars and writing ="Based on the Martin D-28" and I think you'll find that the luthier = industry ismuch less tolerant than the flyrod = industry... No, you can't patent adimension, although a progression of = dimensions might qualify for you can = respect the thought, hair loss and countless hours of = labor andcost of materials that went into that determining exactly what = that require years of your life and a trash can full = of grips that didn't work, tomake a rattan grip = perform exactly as you want it to. Besides that, arattan grip is = something that has been around since before the turn of the= century. The tapers of living rodmakers have NOT. Some are very =protective of them, and for good reason.... those tapers = and their uniqueproperties are what put the milk in the fridge = and the meat on the table(although that meat is more often Bologna = than steak *S* Not very manyrich rodmakers out there). = I'm not saying that you have to develop yourown tapers to be a = rodmaker, but if you sell those rods, then the least youshould do, out of = respect for those who put in the hours, is ask theirpermission before you sell something that's a = duplicate of the very thingthat puts the food on their table and the clothes on their backs. So far ascomparing a taper to a musicians artistry, no, you = can't... but then again, The first taper I developed was the 8' = Supreme... I built well over a dozenrods before I got it right. Oh, sure... I could have used something like = models and programs do NOT make = the taper exactly what you want it tobe. The only thing that does that is those trashed rods and lost = time are a very helpful tool, = but they still can't replace building a rod, testing it,rebuilding it, testing it, again and again and = again until you have it right... not = we, put in the time to develop those tapers, and the ones that you castthat give you that "Wow!!!" = feeling, you can count on are the result of consider fine casting rods. At the risk of sounding like a bit of an oldcurmudgeon, if you design a = taper on a computer model and it comes outto be EXACTLY what you intended, then you are VERY = fortunate... Kinda likebetting on that Longshot at the track... more times that not, he just isn'tgoing to = come in. It takes work, more work than most can = imagine, todesign something that works correctly, whether it's flyrods, = guitars or tapers of = those who give their permission by freely publishing their tapers.Some = might feel it inconvenient or time consuming to ask permission, butya = know... you spend 2 minutes on email or on the phone asking, yet you =spend 40 or more hours building the rod... I don't think the time used =performing a courtesy is much time wasted out of the entire process. = Ifthey're dead, so what... they're classics, and I think we have an = inherentright to make a classic rod... AS LONG AS IT'S MADE RIGHT! We = are NOThurting the income or reputation of a long passed maker by = duplicating hisrods as long as we're doing a good job of it and = insuring that those who useit know that it is a copy only. Off my soapbox and back to wrapping (I hatewrapping). Damn, I knew I = shouldn't have moved my wrapping table close tothis computer!!! Later, Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker Custom Split Cane Fly http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- PM Subject: Re:Sharing /using tapers without I see alot of logic on both sidesof the coin on this subject. But Bret on this one I must disagree with you.SORRY guy, your my Bud = so I know you will under stand:)) I think Bob N. is alittle closer to the way I feel but still not all the way. You can't reallycompare a taper to a musicians artistry. You can compare a rod in whole toit ,but not a taper . And here is why: First as Bob N. has said some makersdon't care. But even if they cared it would not make much difference. Letssay the first guy who played an G chord on Guitar said " that's a = great say you make a tire and patent it. I can make a tire too, it just has to beslightly different. It however can be a tire , round, made of rubber , a similartread = design. I'm sure the first rubber tire held a patent, but probably sodid the = first Bamboo rod. So it may be common courtesy to ask ,but itsnot mandatory. If everyone had to go through asking for a taper there wouldonly be = about two of us on this list.:)) And how do you ask permission frommakers who have passed away? Have all you guys out there (myself included)paid royalties or asked = permission (to make a Rattan grip) from the Kriderfamily? Has anyone that has seen mine Asked me permission to make onelike = mine? Have I asked Doug Kulic for permission to make a Rattan grip?Answer to all these questions NO. What is the difference from this or ataper? Infact a taper is more generalized than a grip. This is all in the goodspirit of debate so please no lawyer comments = LOL I certainly respect theopinions of those who disagree and welcome = all mature response. Well hell Ieven welcome Terry's response LOL fire away dude LOL:)) Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html ------ Hmmmm... well, in a bit of design something that works correctly, whether it's flyrods, guitars or = inconvenient or time consuming to ask permission, but ya know... you = RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht= I see alot of logic on stand:)) I think Bob N. is all the way.You can't really compare a taper to a = . And here iswhy: First as Bob N. has difference. Lets say There would be no music for a band to = chord. You can't patenta dimension. = Here isanother example:lets = say you different. It however design. I'm sure the rod. So it may be If everyone had to go through asking = list.:)) And how do you Have all you guys out there (myself = taper? Infact a taper is opinions of those who disagree and welcome all mature =response. Well LOL:)) TonyMiller www.homestead.com/= bambooshop/home.html from boyko@peoplepc.com Tue Oct 30 14:04:58 2001 f9UK4ua00633 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:04:56 - 0800 -0800 Subject: copying your tapers Lot of bickering going on this site about your tapers. I have not =been lucky enough to got my first one built, I like most, I am leaning =towards the Payne 4wt Perfect...I am enjoying reading about all this =bamboo rod building stuff, making my equipment and all of that just to =get to the point of making my first rod. If somebody does not want me =to copy their rod taper, please tell me so as I do not want to offend =you anyway. If you are in this as a business and want to make money at =it, I understand, don't give out your tapers as I don't have the time to =waste on you and fight with you. Don't get me wrong, I am not mad or =bitter or any thing like that, its just that I don't have the time for =people over something they say is theirs.Time is to precious kto waste =on this, one minute somebody wants to blow us up like in New York. I am =into building a rod be it bamboo or grafite to get to the river and =fight another dam brown trout. If this dont make sense, then mahybed I =am in the wrong crowd...Birddog built, I like most, I am leaning towards the Payne 4wt Perfect...I am = reading about all this bamboo rod building stuff, making my equipment = want me to copy their rod taper, please tell me so as I do not want to = you anyway. If you are in this as a business and want to make money at = understand, don't give out your tapers as I don't have the time to waste = and fight with you. Don't get me wrong, I am not mad or bitter or any = that, its just that I don't have the time for people over something they = theirs.Time is to precious kto waste on this, one minute somebody wants = us up like in New York. I am into building a rod be it bamboo or grafite = to the river and fight another dam brown trout. If this dont make sense, = mahybed I am in the wrong crowd...Birddog from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Tue Oct 30 14:08:49 2001 f9UK8la01819 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:08:48 - Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:08:49 +0100 Subject: Re: Talk to us, Terry f9UK8na01824 Terry Reading your mail has made me realize that time goes by in amighty fast pace. Must be several years ago since we had our first encounter over the future of rodmaking and how to proceed. Iclearly remember You stating that production was the future.You might remember me defending the hand planing, but Imust admit time has proven You right - still more rodmakersturn to some kind of bevelling etc. Hard pressed I will admitto have been thinking of making a router based mill a la Medved.I have had the luck of my little one man show expanding frommaking rods to myself into, in all modesty, to have gaineda "rep". So rodmaking takes still more of my time. I do notseek to make rodmaking a full time pastime, it is simply ahobby gone astray. I still just make fishpoles, though. So now You have turned into a pro rodmaker. I agree - thismeans doing as much as possible with the help of machinesof different kinds. I have no doubt You will succeed - You area stubborn old fart who knows about rods. And I never knew what art had todo with rodmaking - at most its a craft. I know I know - we've had this discussion before, and I stilllike to varnish my rods - IMHO looks better than impregnatedrods. But still, off the record, I would like to know what resin You use:-))) regards, carsten ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Talk to us, Terry Carsten you will have to find your own impregnant for the followingreasons.I am now working as a full time rod maker since becoming a victim of thehightech downturn. This ok, I hated the job but had too much time invested tojustquit so this was a real bonus. I have walked away with a severance packagewhich should keep me going until the rods get on the shelves.Several years ago I had an idea that bamboo rods would become popularagainand I knew that to take advantage of this I had to get away from handplaningand use machines I gave up rodmaking and concentrated on building amodernbeveller that worked different to those I had seen and also toexperimentingwith resins that made cane a little less prone to moisture. I took it easy,made a lot of mistakes and just tinkered, I did not need rod money.I have not made that many rods recently so I will have to try to capturebackthe market I had before. I am not sure how easy this is going to be becauseIcannot profess to be making the best rods in the world like you guys andthereare more of you! I think I will be able to supply an inexpensive cane rod witha performance level that will be better than most and will be available in areasonable quantity.I am trying to get away from the one man rodshop scenario and intoplannedmanufacturing where is best way is usually the fastest way.My background has always been manufacturing and not the arts.Terry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry We are gettting ever more exited. What IS "this stuff" ?come on, time to reveal the secret. I promise Iwont tell anybody else:-)) regards, Carsten Jorgensen ----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 1:59 AMSubject: Re: Talk to us, Terry I have no idea what this stuff does, it seems to add no weight (I havelab scales that measure .01/gram) and it does not modify the actionofthe cane as Phenolic resin.I have impregnated strips that have been laying around in my basement snap as if they had just been cooked. I have found a half finished rodunder a pile of heavy junk on a bench and the tip was still straight.I have not made many rods with this process, I have been busy withotherstuff but judging by what I have laying around and the observations Ihave made I am postive it will be worth the extra frigging around.I does seem to prevent moisture absorption, but then again I could bejust kidding myselfTerry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Bret wrote Terry, give the list some insight on impregnation of rods.I know you are doing this and I for one would like yourobservations on it and how it effects a rod. Now I am notasking your process just some insight.BretBret: For years I have tried to persuade Terry to spillthe beans on impregnation.No success yet, but someday......... Come on Terry, be a sport:-))) regards, carstenjorgensen from cattanac@wmis.net Tue Oct 30 14:14:16 2001 f9UKEFa03373 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:14:15 - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Years ago I spoke with a lawyer of just this matter - there is what is knownas an 'artistic copyright' - and the making of rods would fall under thatcategory - in theory the originator would have a copyright to thedimensions - that is until there were more than 200 of that particular'copyright' made - at which point if there were never a copyright filingthen the work would be public domain - I used the word in theory - laws asyou know need to be tested and held up in court in order for them to takeprecedent - part of such case would be the bounds at which an infringementwould occur - is within a .001" the litmus test - and to the best of myknowledge - or rather to the best of knowledge of the circle of rod I know -there has never been a court case to test or make the matter a precedent -I suspect it is up to the individual - Obviously a rod portraying a famousmakers rod - is a fraud and has occurred during history from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Tue Oct 30 14:14:16 2001 [66.133.130.237] (may be forged)) f9UKEFa03374 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:14:15 - sender ) Subject: Re:Sharing /using tapers without I have always thought that there is not an infinite number of fishable =tapers for a particular length. So, I would say that most tapers =available today have been around for years, granted maybe not exact =duplicates but r e a l close. Like AJ said earlier about his rod he =designed that is close to a Payne. That tells me he understands what =goes into a taper. Who's to stop someone from copying a taper, changing =.001" at the butt under the grip and call it his/her own. Nobody, its =up to thier own conscience. Tom Bob Nunley wrote: Besides that, a rattan grip is something that has been around since =before the turn of the century. The tapers of living rodmakers =have NOT. Some are very protective of them, and for =good reason.... those tapers and their unique properties are what put =the milk in the snip snip Bob, say that most tapers available today have been around for years, granted = copying a taper, changing .001" at the butt under the grip and call it = Tom Bob Nunley wrote: rattan = are = snip snip from gjm80301@yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 14:17:07 2001 f9UKH6a04407 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:17:06 - Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:17:10 PST Subject: Re: copying your tapers Lynette, I think that you have miskonskrued the lisssst. The issue is notwhether to build folks' own tapers that they have published. Have atit there. The issue is whether it is proper to measure a taper froman active builder and use or publish the taper without the consent ofthe developer. The good folks here have pretty much determined thatto do so is not a good idea and I concur. Folks are here to help, but if there is a better site, certainly takeadvantage of it. Jerry --- Lynette Boyko wrote: Lot of bickering going on this site about your tapers. I havenot been lucky enough to got my first one built, I like most, I amleaning towards the Payne 4wt Perfect...I am enjoying reading aboutall this bamboo rod building stuff, making my equipment and all ofthat just to get to the point of making my first rod. If somebodydoes not want me to copy their rod taper, please tell me so as I donot want to offend you anyway. If you are in this as a business andwant to make money at it, I understand, don't give out your tapersas I don't have the time to waste on you and fight with you. Don'tget me wrong, I am not mad or bitter or any thing like that, itsjust that I don't have the time for people over something they sayis theirs.Time is to precious kto waste on this, one minutesomebody wants to blow us up like in New York. I am into building arod be it bamboo or grafite to get to the river and fight anotherdam brown trout. If this dont make sense, then mahybed I am in thewrong crowd...Birddog __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 30 14:23:17 2001 f9UKNGa06296 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:23:16 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:23:21 -0500 Subject: Re:Bob You bring up some good points Bob.:))Maybe it is more like the making of a guitar.:))But don't kid yourself, many of my rattan grips hit the trash can LOL =LOL.I do think many makers put too much emphasis on tapers as if it was the =last word in rodmaking. Infact I think that the common belief is who =cares what it looks like, does it cast well. Not because I would not like too.:))But you ought to see they way people put my rods under a microscope.I don't mind this ,but if they find one little dust speck or anythingit seems like "no sale"I know this isn't the case with makers who have been around. They are to =busy being glammed with the name.I sell my name much more than my rods.Why ,that's what the people want. And I have to, to sell rods.Does that mean I make crapy rods "no way"I know you make nice rods too, I have seen them.:))But I don't care much about taking the bread off the other guys table.it's a free market. I have already had guys duplicate my techniques.that is why I'm here,because I know in the end it is not gonna matter if =I share it or not. or if I give permission or not.the competition is heavy and its getting heavier each day.That's why Terry will not tell us his secrets. (see Terry I understand )he knows if he wants to capture the market, he better not tell.Only problem is their are guys like me out there that will find out =anyway. www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html You bring up some good points =Bob.:))Maybe it is more like the making of guitar.:))But don't kid yourself, many of my = the trash can LOL LOL.I do think many makers put too much = tapers as if it was the last word in rodmaking. Infact I think that the = belief is who cares what it looks like, does it cast well. Not because I would not like =too.:))But you ought to see they way people = under a microscope. dust speck or anything sale"I know this isn't the case with makers = been around. They are to busy being= the name.I sell my name much more than my =rods.Why ,that's what the people want. And I= sell rods.Does that mean I make crapy rods way"I know you make nice rods too, I have = them.:))But I don't care much about taking the= the other guys table.it's a free market. I have already had = duplicate my techniques.that is why I'm here,because I know in = not.the competition is heavy and its = each day.That's why Terry will not tell us his = Terry I understand )he knows if he wants to capture the = better not tell.Only problem is their are guys like me = that will find out anyway.best regards www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 30 14:31:59 2001 f9UKVwa08818 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:31:58 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:32:04 -0500 Subject: Wayne is correct Wayne has went to a lawyer and I believe what he is saying.I would NOT in any way put someone else's name on my rod.Nor would I copy a rod exactly. But I have sold rods that I made from =Waynes taper's. Thanks Wayne for sharing the tapers.I assume you don't care , I hope I'm not wrong.:))The rods I sold contained my name as the maker and I put a model name on =it because I changed it alittle in the butt section.And the rod had the length & weight on it. NO mention of you was written =on the rod.however I have publicly stated it was a taper from your book and I give =you credit.Was this the correct thing to do in your opinion? www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html = he is saying. someone = on my rod.Nor would I copy a rod exactly. But I = tapers.I assume you don't care , I hope I'm = wrong.:))The rods I sold contained my name as = section.And the rod had the length & = however I have publicly stated it was a= your book and I give you credit.Was this the correct thing to do in = opinion? www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from bamboorods@saber.net Tue Oct 30 14:37:16 2001 f9UKbFa10337 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:37:15 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:37:19 - Subject: Now I understand the taper issue I get it now. Nobody made a good taper until Garrison, Payne, Powell, =Gillum, Dickerson et al circa 1930-1950. 1880 to 1930 was a wasteland. =Glad we found this out. And none of the above builders stole any tapers = from previous builders. Nice to have this straightened out.Chris = until Garrison, Payne, Powell, Gillum, Dickerson et al circa = this straightened out.Chris from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Oct 30 14:44:46 2001 f9UKika12676 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:44:46 - ([209.178.135.251] helo=g2t8c9) id 15yfki-0002zV-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:44:52 -0800 Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Reed, I think asking is good. But makers like Nunley, Moon and A.J. have basicallytold me the taper might be their numbers but the rod is the makers. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Just a question that seems relevant: Do we have the right (not legal,but ethical) to take tapers from the rods of living rodmakers and sharethem without the consent of the originator? And if we do use the tapers,should the originator be acknowledged?--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Tue Oct 30 14:51:24 2001 f9UKpNa14705 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:51:23 -0600 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:51:23 -0800 Subject: Sharing tapers Hi all,Sharing this taper has certainly stirred up more controversy than I = Let me say first I consider Mike a fine man and a first class rodmaker =and I would never list his taper with any intent to cause harm or =diminish his ability to sell rods. I own the Gierach/Best rod listed, =Mike is building a 7' 4 wt 3pc rod for me now and I anticipate ordering =another 81/2' 3pc 6wt. These rods have not been ordered for the tapers, =I ordered my first rod from Mike before I knew what the hell a rod taper =was, these rods have been ordered because "they are a Mike Clark rod", I = I listed the taper to share with this group the taper of a fine rod from =a fine rodmaker, obviously it did not occur to me that someone would use =this taper for a production rod and market it as their own creation, =although I am not entirely convinced that any handcraft can be exactly =duplicated without the soul of the original creator, perhaps this is/was =a bit naive on my part.I offer my apology to the group if I have offended and I will certainly =offer my apology to Mike when I see him next. Losey Hi all,Sharing this taper has certainly = controversy than I could have imagined. Let me say first I consider Mike a fine = ordering another 81/2' 3pc 6wt. These rods have not been ordered for the = I ordered my first rod from Mike before I knew what the hell a rod taper = = rod", I could make a rod with this taper but it wouldn't be = Clark rod. not occur to me that someone would use this taper for a production rod = market it as their own creation, although I am not entirely convinced = handcraft can be exactly duplicated without the soul of the original = I offer my apology to the group if I = and I will certainly offer my apology to Mike when I see him =next. Losey from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Tue Oct 30 15:09:05 2001 f9UL94a19434 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:09:04 - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Dave You are correct. There is nothing new in taper design, in fact you can have three of the same exact (or not so exact) rods together and theyall mike out different. one day they make four passes with the sanding block or file the next day six. Anyone designing tapers most always starts with something that he or she already likes. The days of designing new and completely different tapers ended with the first para. I know a lot of guys start from scratch with a lot of figuring, but are they really that different from what has already been done? I commend the folks that do this andsome come out with some amazing casting rods as Bob. N and AJ have. I try not to say to much on a thread like this (or any thread for that matter) but while I'm on a roll let's look at another aspect of this. How many times have Payne, Leonard, Winston, FE. Thomas and a host of others changed hands? Some are still making rods with different owners at the helm today. Do we have the right to even make a Payne or a Leonard taper just because it was designed in the Maxwell era? These companies are in business today, is it OK to say Leonard 50 Taper on the rod shaft. You can say these new rods can'tbe true Paynes or Leonards but Hiram was long gone in the early 70's. I don't know maybe Terry will give us the truth. Just kidding Terry don't ream me again!Joseph A. Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith Rd.Portageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 from dstreight@yarcom.com Tue Oct 30 15:39:56 2001 f9ULdta27348 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:39:55 - -0800 Subject: RE: dry rot They make environmentally conscience antifreeze which **I believe** isalsonontoxic to animals (including humans). By that I mean that it might makeyou (and your pets) sick but will not kill as the old stuff does. Usualcaveats here, no expert, do not try this at home, etc.. Dave Streight -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:21 AM Subject: Re:dry rot Yep, it'll kill dogs, cats and even people if you drink enough of it, butthen again, when I have an antifreeze leak in the drive, we don't have tohave a mass burying of neighborhood pets. I'm not sure whatamount per bodyweight it takes to kill an animal and how safe it would be for "Tuffy" ifyou put it on the deck... Bill Lamberson??? Peter McKean??? Youguys wantto chime in on this one? antifreeze and makesure it's still good is to dip your finger in the radiator... ifit's stillsweet it's still working. That sweet taste is why animals likeit. Oh, butdon't be a swallower, be a spitter. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: "Ed Riddle" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 6:15 AMSubject: Re:dry rot FYI:Careful with antifreeze if you have pets. I understand some animals areattracted to it and it's deadly if consumed. I believe there's a non-toxic variety available but it's relatively new and not the most commonlyavailble.Ed ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:07 AMSubject: Re:dry rot You'll laugh but try anti freeze. Serious Tony At 09:02 PM 10/29/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do the trick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have a good boat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please let me know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message -----From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw- Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:42 PMSubject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of a product +AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to +AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message -----+AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. +AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 30 15:44:44 2001 f9ULiha28637 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:44:43 - (authenticated) for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:44:36 -0800 Subject: Re: dry rot Perhaps a better choice for dry rotted wood is some sort of epoxyformulation.Haven't I seen these in the woodworking catalogs? I might try someone likeHighlandHardware in Atlanta. Give them a call and see what they recommend. Harry "David A. Streight" wrote: They make environmentally conscience antifreeze which **I believe** isalsonontoxic to animals (including humans). --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 30 15:52:35 2001 f9ULqYa00819 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:52:34 - ;Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:52:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent My take, two. I agree essentially with all that Bob has said. I wouldadd, for my part, that I do not believe the taper should be put on thelist without a living makers permission. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Bob Nunley wrote: My take. I think it depends on your situation. If you are a hobbyistmaker, making a rod for a friend and you want to use a taper developed byaliving rodmaker for a rod for your use or as a gift to a friend, then by allmeans make the rod......... from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 30 16:17:23 2001 f9UMHMa07615 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:17:22 - ;Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:17:25 +0000 Subject: Re: sharing /using tapers Ok guys, As much as I hate to say it, I see your point. How about if the taper isposted as a great 8'6" 5wt, and the qualities that make it so. Withoutany name, rodmaker-company-or rod. I would then think all bets would beoff as to proprietary claims. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Tony Miller wrote: Excellent point Dave:))many tapers are very similar only to be different by a thousand or twoin a few stations.That's like saying our company slices it's cheese to a half inch.No way can another company slice cheese at a half inch.and if you slice it to .502 that's too close to call it different.So it may not be original,but that should not stop you from making andselling a rod.(or cheese if you like LOL)your taper that is close to pinky's is just that, a taper dimension.I hardly believe pinky would care ,but on the other hand if you made arod that duplicated his on every level he might care then.:))Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Oct 30 16:21:57 2001 f9UMLua08929 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:21:56 - ([209.178.134.181] helo=g2t8c9) id 15yhGk-0004CB-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:22:02 -0800 Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Joe makes a good point, Tapers of makers living or dead actually if we wish to speak on the moralhighground do belong to the current companies of those original makers.There is a Payne, Powell, Leonard, FE Thomas, Young rod companies inexistence today. They are making a living off their tapers. What I do knowis dimensions are hard to copyright. It is much easier to get a "dresspatent" That basically is you have the sole right to how something looks ie.Coca Cola bottle and no one else can use it. The dress patent does not coverany functioning part of the product needed for it use ie. reel seat , corkgrip. Actually if someone wanted they could get a dress patent on a rattan grip ifit was known to be an identifying part of a makers rod. He then could sueour pants off everytime another maker used the rattan grip. DONT EVENTHINKABOUT IT TONY! Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent How many times have Payne, Leonard, Winston, FE. Thomas and a host of others changed hands?Some are still making rods with different owners at the helm today. Do wehave the right to even make a Payne or a Leonard taper just because itwasdesigned in the Maxwell era? These companies are in business today, Joseph A. Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith Rd.Portageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Tue Oct 30 16:23:29 2001 f9UMNSa09484 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:23:28 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:23:34 -0500 Subject: Taper Issue: I have been following the thread on using tapers, is it legal and ethical?There is an old saying that goes something like this "imitation is theultimate compliment" I think that when one looks to see what rod makersstand out it is easily discernable. The past greats are copied and the newgreats will be copied. I have found that no matter what you do for abusiness there will be knock offs, it is just the nature of the beast. Canyou stop people from doing this, I think not. The rod makers who make abusiness of this are successful because of their talent and skill. Themarketing of this craft is a never ending job and should be enjoyed as partof the process, so as far as I am concerned I can't wait to be copied.Doughty Who?????????????? Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 30 16:33:57 2001 f9UMXua12322 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:33:56 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:33:59 -0500 Subject: Rattan /Adam LOL LOL !!!!!!!Don't give me any ideas .:))Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html LOL LOL !!!!!!!Don't give me any ideas =.:))Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jczimny@dol.net Tue Oct 30 16:40:18 2001 f9UMeHa14148 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:40:17 - Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: Sharing /using tapers without Where therefore would the German augmented sixthchord come?Any key.John Z from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Tue Oct 30 16:56:31 2001 f9UMuVa18611 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:56:31 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:56:32 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:44:23 -0600 Subject: I forgot one Y'all -- I made one glaring omission on my SRG fav list. TOM SMITHWICK's spiral was also just as smooth as could be! One thing thatwas exceptional about this rod is that was...... how do I say it....universal? I mean that everyone was able to cast it. It seemed to improvethe results for almost everyone that I watched cast it. Forgiving?Absolutely. Tom, have you ever heard this about the spirals before? What would makethis rod so "castable" by everyone? I heard comments like "Man, this thingis powerful!", and then the next person would say "I has great feel, a nicesoft touch". And both perceptions were right, in my mind. Kudos on yourefforts, Tom! Yours was among the most castable of the Grand rods IMHO. Thanks for bringing that great collection, John! TAM from Lazybee45@aol.com Tue Oct 30 17:06:49 2001 f9UN6ma21019 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:06:48 - Subject: Re: schools and world knowledge warning! rant! In a message dated 10/29/01 11:20:53 AM Central Standard Time, pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us writes: Yey yes yes! THAT was MY point. The problem is not ENTIRELY the schools. They get beat up over it. But PARENTS need to be responsible for their kids! Schools were forced to take up responsibility for kids when parents abandoned the job! If you want to have your kids to be "model citizens" THEN BE ONE YOURSELF! THAT is easy!mark from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 30 17:09:24 2001 f9UN9Oa21702 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:09:24 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:09:28 -0500 Subject: Re:sharing/sharing tapers without JohnMaybe we could form a band and call it the Soggy Bottom Bamboo Boys:)) =:))Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html JohnMaybe we could form a band and call it= Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from piscator@macatawa.org Tue Oct 30 17:39:44 2001 f9UNdha28301 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:39:43 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:41:37 - Subject: Fw: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Sorry, meant to send this to the list, not just Reed----- Original Message ---- - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Up until fairly recently, much of rod making lore was held as craft secrets. Of course, once you let a rod, (or a spaghetti sauce, or southern friedchicken recipe) out the door, some yayhoo can backwards engineer thethingand try to make one just like it. But have you ever had anything that tasted like KFC? Or Like a familyrestaurants spag recipe? Or was Just like a (fill in the blank) fly rod?No, of course you haven't. Nobody but Paul Young is going to build a PaulYoung rod ever again. Ditto for all of us. It's the sum of the parts, not any one part that make the difference. That said, if a guy doesn't wish to share his ingredients, it does seem kind of wrong for someone else to violate his wishes and share them without hispermission. That's just my opinion, and is only one of the many small, unique thingsthat makes me sooo un-copyable!! Brian from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 30 17:47:48 2001 f9UNlla29972 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:47:47 - (authenticated) for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:47:39 -0800 Subject: Re: I forgot one (Tom Smithwick) Tom Smithwick, Troy is correct. Your rod was a hit. So was the PMQ. I shipped both rodsthis morning in the same box you sent them to me in. They should be homebythe weekend. Thanks for your graciousness in sharing them with us. Harry PS - misplaced your email addy or would have sent this privately. "Miller, Troy" wrote: TOM SMITHWICK's spiral was also just as smooth as could be! One thingthatwas exceptional about this rod is that was...... how do I say it....universal? -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 17:48:11 2001 f9UNmAa00063 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:48:10 - , Subject: Re:dry rot I think it is to everything including dry rot spores. Try it on bare wood and see if it soaks in well then paint it. I've never tried it myself but I've seen it mentioned in the mag Wooden Boat a few times. I sort of remember someone once using it to stop that black fungus living onbathroom ceilings too. Tony At 05:51 AM 10/30/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Isn't it toxic to dogs etc.? John K.----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:07 AMSubject: Re:dry rot You'll laugh but try anti freeze. Serious Tony At 09:02 PM 10/29/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do thetrick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have agoodboat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please let me know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message -----From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw- Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:42 PMSubject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of a product +AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to+AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message -----+AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. +AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from piscator@macatawa.org Tue Oct 30 17:53:17 2001 f9UNrGa01621 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:53:17 - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Remember when Truman Capote thought that he had invented a new,undiscoveredtechnical point of view? Brian from drinkr@voicenet.com Tue Oct 30 17:59:55 2001 f9UNxsa02484 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:59:54 - (207.103.93.199) Subject: RE: Sharing /using tapers without BobIf it was based on a Martin 0028 then there would be some question byluthiers I would imagine. D-28's are everywhere. They roll off the pressliterally by the thousands in Nazareth, Pa. Ill chime in an say that theethics of this list and those on it, would lend themselves to protect thetapers from the kind of infringements of that are perused here. Mike Clark's tapers are based on other famous or not so rods like most of ours are butthey are his own. I will however stash any information in my hard drivethat will give me a better understanding of the work of others that I don'town myself. When I hear Gerach's rambling on rods I have some grasp of theoriginal. Now if I could only get Chris Bogart to publish that Ardithtaper.. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re:Sharing /using tapers without Hmmmm... well, in a bit of disagreement... as a guitarist, a G chord is morelike a 7 foot rod, not like a taper... nobody ever threw away dozens ofguitars trying to develop a new chord, where the trashing of dozens of rodsover literally thousands of hours of work is not unusual in developing ataper. I guess what I'm saying is that anyone can make a 7 foot rod (or a GChord)... not anyone can design a particular taper (or guitar) to make a rodperform in a particular way. That being the case, it should be more thanjust common courtesy for us to either ask permission or acknowledge thoseliving makers who have spent those countless hours developing them, itshould be "just the way it is". A length is a generalized thing like a Chord G minor 7th = 7'6"A taper is a specific thing, like the difference between a Martin guitarand a Taylor. Start making guitars and writing "Based on theMartin D-28" and I think you'll find that the luthier industry is much lesstolerant than the flyrod industry...No, you can't patent a dimension, although a progression of dimensionsmight qualify for copyright, just as aprogrssion of chords do qualify for copyright, but you canrespect the thought, hair loss and countless hours of laborand cost of materials that went into that determining exactly what thatdimension shouldbe.The difference between a Ratan Grip and a taper is that it, while Iagree it takes talent to make a Rattan Grip,it doesn't require years of your life and a trash can full ofgrips that didn't work, to make a rattan grip performexactly as you want it to. Besides that, a rattan grip is something thathas been around since before the turn of the century. Thetapers of living rodmakers have NOT. Some are very protective ofthem, and for good reason.... those tapers and their unique properties arewhat put the milk in the fridge and the meat on the table(although that meat is more often Bologna than steak *S* Not very manyrichrodmakers out there). I'm not saying that you have to develop your owntapers to be a rodmaker, but ifyou sell those rods, then the least you should do, out ofrespect for those who put in the hours, is asktheir permission before you sell something that's a duplicate ofthe very thing that puts the food on theirtable and the clothes on their backs.So far as comparing a taper to a musicians artistry, no, you can't...but then again, when you start puttingtogether a taper that is unique, then you're going to draw onall your patience, talent and spare time tomake it work. The first taper I developed was the 8' Supreme...I built well over a dozen rods before Igot it right. Oh, sure... I could have used something likeHexrod or such and made it closer the firsttime, but still, computer models and programs do NOT make thetaper exactly what you want it to be.The only thing that does that is those trashed rods and losttime building them. Not to say the taperprograms are useless, because they are a very helpful tool, butthey still can't replace building a rod,testing it, rebuilding it, testing it, again and again and againuntil you have it right... THAT is what weshould respect, especially of the living makers. THEY, not we,put in the time to develop those tapers,and the ones that you cast that give you that "Wow!!!" feeling,you can count on are the result of themaking of many test rods, and the trashing of what some wouldconsider fine casting rods. At the riskof sounding like a bit of an old curmudgeon, if you design ataper on a computer model and it comes outto be EXACTLY what you intended, then you are VERY fortunate...Kinda like betting on that Longshotat the track... more times that not, he just isn't going to comein. It takes work, more work than most can imagine, todesign something that works correctly, whether it's flyrods, guitars or eventires... so... if the maker is living, ask permission, or use the tapers ofthose who give their permission by freely publishing their tapers. Somemight feel it inconvenient or time consuming to ask permission, but yaknow... you spend 2 minutes on email or on the phone asking, yet you spend40 or more hours building the rod... I don't think the time used performinga courtesy is much time wasted out of the entire process. If they're dead,so what... they're classics, and I think we have an inherent right to make aclassic rod... AS LONG AS IT'S MADE RIGHT! We are NOT hurting the incomeorreputation of a long passed maker by duplicating his rods as long as we'redoing a good job of it and insuring that those who use it know that it is acopy only. Off my soapbox and back to wrapping (I hate wrapping). Damn, I knew Ishouldn't have moved my wrapping table close to this computer!!! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re:Sharing /using tapers without I see alot of logic on both sides of the coin on this subject.But Bret on this one I must disagree with you. SORRY guy, your my Bud so Iknow you will under stand:))I think Bob N. is a little closer to the way I feel but still notall the way.You can't really compare a taper to a musicians artistry.You can compare a rod in whole to it ,but not a taper .And here is why:First as Bob N. has said some makers don't care.But even if they cared it would not make much difference.Lets say the first guy who played an G chord on Guitar said " that's a great There would be no music for a band to make original in the first place.A taper is a generalized thing like a G chord.You can't patent a dimension.Here is another example:lets say you make a tire and patent it.I can make a tire too, it just has to be slightly different.It however can be a tire , round, made of rubber , a similar tread design.I'm sure the first rubber tire held a patent, but probably so did the firstBamboo rod.So it may be common courtesy to ask ,but its not mandatory.If everyone had to go through asking for a taper there would only be abouttwo of us on this list.:))And how do you ask permission from makers who have passed away?Have all you guys out there (myself included) paid royalties or askedpermission (to make a Rattan grip) from the Krider family?Has anyone that has seen mine Asked me permission to make one like mine?Have I asked Doug Kulic for permission to make a Rattan grip?Answer to all these questions NO.What is the difference from this or a taper?Infact a taper is more generalized than a grip.This is all in the good spirit of debate so please no lawyer comments LOLI certainly respect the opinions of those who disagree and welcome allmature response.Well hell I even welcome Terry's response LOL fire away dude LOL:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html 0DocumentEmail Bo=b If=it wasbased on a Martin 0028 then there would be some question by luthiers I =would are =everywhere. They ethics ofthis list and those on it, would lend themselves to protect the tapers = from the =or not so rods thatwill give me a better understanding of the work of others that I =don’t own Gerach’s Ardithtaper………….. -----OriginalMessage-----From: =owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Bob NunleySent: Tuesday, October =30, 20012:44 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re:Sharing =/using taperswithout Hmmmm... like a7 foot rod, not like a taper... nobody ever threw away dozens of guitars =tryingto develop a new chord, where the trashing of dozens of rods over =literally guesswhat I'm saying is that anyone can make a 7 foot rod (or a G Chord)... =not perform in common living should be"just the way it is". 7'6" A taper is a specific thing, like the difference between a Martin guitar =and a think you'll flyrodindustry... No, you can't patent a dimension, although a progression of dimensions =might for thought, = wentinto that determining exactly what that dimension =should The difference between a Ratan Grip and a taper is that it, while I =agree ittakes talent to make a Rattan Grip, life anda trash can full of grips that didn't work, to make a rattan grip turn =of the =are on =the owntapers to be a rodmaker, but if least youshould do, out of respect for those who put in the hours, is =ask something that's a duplicate of the very thing that puts the food on =their backs. So far as comparing a taper to a musicians artistry, no, you can't... =but thenagain, when you start putting thenyou're going to draw on all your patience, talent and spare time to = taper Ideveloped was the 8' Supreme... I built well over a dozen rods before =I couldhave used something like Hexrod or such and made it closer the first = and programsdo NOT make the taper exactly what you want it to be. those they =are avery helpful tool, but they still can't replace building a =rod, it,again and again and again until you have it right... THAT is what we = living tapers, give youthat "Wow!!!" feeling, you can count on are the result of the = risk curmudgeon, if you design a taper on a computer model and it comes =out =then you Longshot not, he flyrods, guitars or even tires... those mightfeel it inconvenient or time consuming to ask permission, but ya know... =youspend 2 minutes on email or on the phone asking, yet you spend 40 or =more hours dead, sowhat... they're classics, and I think we have an inherent right to make =a incomeor reputation of a long passed maker by duplicating his rods as long as =we'redoing a good job of it and insuring that those who use it know that it =is acopy only. Off my shouldn'thave moved my wrapping table close to this =computer!!! Later, Bob R.L. Nunley,RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rods ht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm -----Original Message ----- From: Tony =Miller = Sent: Tuesday, =October 30,2001 12:24 PM Subject:Re:Sharing /using tapers without I seealot of logic on both sides of the coin on this =subject. ButBret on this one I must disagree with you. SORRY guy, your my Bud = know you will under stand:)) I think not all theway. Youcan't really compare a taper to a musicians artistry. You cancompare a rod in whole to it ,but not a taper . Andhere is why: Firstas Bob N. has said some makers don't care. Buteven if they cared it would not make much difference. Letssay the first guy who played an G chord on Guitar said " that's a =great on". Therewould be no music for a band to make original in the first =place. A taper Youcan't patent a dimension. Here isanother example:lets say you make a tire and patent =it. I canmake a tire too, it just has to be slightly =different. Ithowever can be a tire , round, made of rubber , a similar tread =design. I'msure the first rubber tire held a patent, but probably so did the first =Bamboorod. So itmay be common courtesy to ask ,but its notmandatory. Ifeveryone had to go through asking for a taper there would only be about =two ofus on this list.:)) And howdo you ask permission from makers who have passed =away? Haveall you guys out there (myself included) paid royalties or asked =permission (tomake a Rattan grip) from the Krider family? Hasanyone that has seen mine Asked me permission to make one like mine? grip? Answerto all these questions NO. What is Infacta taper is more generalized than a grip. This isall in the good spirit of debate so please no lawyer comments disagree andwelcome all mature response. Well LOL:)) TonyMiller www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from channer@frontier.net Tue Oct 30 18:03:19 2001 f9V03Ha03390 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:03:17 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:09:12 - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Bob;Sure makes sense to me! This thread could be titled"Here we go again"seeing as this has been covered umpteen times. I have said before andwill say again, I never put another makers name on my rods, even tho Iuse existing tapers. This is not to take credit away from anyone, butbecause I don't feel that any rods not made by the original maker ofthat taper can be exactly the same, there are just too many variablesinvolved, not the least of which is the competence and precision of theperson who measured the original. I think all the tapers from classicrods that are floating around to be merely theory, the few out therethat are from the originators taper books, such as Garrison's tapers,Wayne Cattenach's and A.J. Thramer's, are the only ones that can betrusted as being what the original maker actually made. Basically whatI'm saying is that if I make a rod to So And So's taper and it doesn'tturn out to be as good a rod as the orignal, I don't want my poorimitation to reflect badly on him. When I make a custom rod, I do tellthe buyer what taper I have used, but that is for his informatiom and Iexplain that those are just the numbers I started with, what the finalrod is may or may not be the same. I prefer to have my rods sell ontheir own merits, not by riding someone else's coat tails. Just myhumble opinion and the rest of you please do whatever feels right toyou.john Bob Nunley wrote: My take. I think it depends on your situation. If you are a hobbyistmaker, making a rod for a friend and you want to use a taper developed byaliving rodmaker for a rod for your use or as a gift to a friend, then by allmeans make the rod.On the other hand, in my situation, I make rods for a living. I don'tthink it's right for me to use George Maurer's Starlight Creek Special orMike Clarks tapers, or Bob Summers Tapers and sell those rods without aletter from one of them that says "Sure Bob, I don't care if you use mytaper and make money on it!". That would be profitting from the work ofothers. There are exceptions to this rule, and those would be makers whofreely share their tapers and just don't care. Wayne does this, so do I....someone wants to use one of my tapers, they are more than welcome toit. Iwould just as soon not have my name on the rod, however. After all, theydid the hard part of it, not me... didn't get any glue on my shirt puttingit together...If a maker freely shares and/or publishes his tapers, fine to usethem... he is giving his permission. If not, then he probably considersthem proprietary and would just as soon that someone else doesn't use histapers, even if they put credit under the varnish, and I hate to say this,but many would prefer that you did NOT put their name on a rod that theydidnot make, even if it's only for purposes of crediting them with something.Look at it this way. Say this is your rod #2... you got the tip a littlehotter than you planned while straightening, wrote Billy Bob Rodmaker'snameunder the varnish to credit him with the taper, a few trips of fishing andthe tip breaks... all of a sudden, you have a rod that failed that has areputable makers name written on it, and the first thing someone else isgoing to think is, "Hey, the rest of the rod is beautiful. Tip must'vebroke because it was a bad taper... Hmmmm... says on the rod it's a BillyBob Rodmaker Copy... Remind me never to buy one of old Billy Bob's rodsbecause the tips break on them." Make sense? Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: "Reed Curry" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 8:04 AMSubject: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Just a question that seems relevant: Do we have the right (not legal,but ethical) to take tapers from the rods of living rodmakers and sharethem without the consent of the originator? And if we do use the tapers,should the originator be acknowledged?--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Oct 30 18:04:31 2001 f9V04Va03750 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:04:31 - [142.169.183.180] (may be forged)) Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Joe,all the rods I have ever owned seem to start off fat and get skinny in avarietyof combinations yet they all cast a line.I do not think it is worth getting too technical, most of these old productionrods were all over the place and dimensions varied from rod to rod so you didnotalways get a good 'un. Leonard, I have read were the worst for this.Whatever happened to all the computer generated tapers that were the rageon thelist a couple of years ago?Terry Eastkoyfly@aol.com wrote: DaveYou are correct. There is nothing new in taper design, in fact youcan have three of the same exact (or not so exact) rods together and theyallmike out different. one day they make four passes with the sanding blockorfile the next day six. Anyone designing tapers most always starts withsomething that he or she already likes. The days of designing new andcompletely different tapers ended with the first para. I know a lot of guysstart from scratch with a lot of figuring, but are they really that different from what has already been done? I commend the folks that do this andsomecome out with some amazing casting rods as Bob. N and AJ have. I try nottosay to much on a thread like this (or any thread for that matter) but whileI'm on a roll let's look at another aspect of this. How many times havePayne, Leonard, Winston, FE. Thomas and a host of others changed hands?Some are still making rods with different owners at the helm today. Do wehave the right to even make a Payne or a Leonard taper just because itwasdesigned in the Maxwell era? These companies are in business today, is itOKto say Leonard 50 Taper on the rod shaft. You can say these new rodscan't betrue Paynes or Leonards but Hiram was long gone in the early 70's. I don'tknow maybe Terry will give us the truth. Just kidding Terry don't ream meagain!Joseph A. Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com5733 Griffith Rd.Portageville,NY 14536716-493-2637 from bh887@lafn.org Tue Oct 30 18:05:14 2001 f9V05Da04041 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:05:13 - , Subject: Re:dry rot Wasn't that stuff called "Callahans"? It has been many years since I soldmy sloop, but I seem to remember using some of that stuff under theforepeak. Worked great, as I remember. Needed ventilation while drying.Badly! Lee Freeman----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re:dry rot You'll laugh but try anti freeze. Serious Tony At 09:02 PM 10/29/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do thetrick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have a goodboat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please let me know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message -----From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw- Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:42 PMSubject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of a product +AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to+AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message -----+AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. +AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 18:06:54 2001 f9V06ra04672 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:06:53 - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Not sure about any right but the originator definitely should be mentioned dead or alive. Tony At 09:04 AM 10/30/01 -0500, Reed Curry wrote: Just a question that seems relevant: Do we have the right (not legal, but ethical) to take tapers from the rods of living rodmakers and share them without the consent of the originator? And if we do use the tapers, should the originator be acknowledged?--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Oct 30 18:14:31 2001 f9V0EUa06738 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:14:30 - [142.169.183.180] (may be forged)) Subject: Re: Bob Tony,finding out by yourself is much more rewarding than being spoon fed butit takes time.Terry Tony Miller wrote: You bring up some good points Bob.:))Maybe it is more like themaking of a guitar.:))But don't kid yourself, many of my rattan gripshit the trash can LOL LOL.I do think many makers put too much emphasison tapers as if it was the last word in rodmaking. Infact I think thatthe common belief is who cares what it looks like, does it castwell.Well I don't really subscribe to this .Not because I would notlike too.:))But you ought to see they way people put my rods under amicroscope.I don't mind this ,but if they find one little dust speckor anythingit seems like "no sale"I know this isn't the case withmakers who have been around. They are to busy being glammed with thename.I sell my name much more than my rods.Why ,that's what the peoplewant. And I have to, to sell rods.Does that mean I make crapy rods "noway"I know you make nice rods too, I have seen them.:))But I don'tcare much about taking the bread off the other guys table.it's a freemarket. I have already had guys duplicate my techniques.that is whyI'm here,because I know in the end it is not gonna matter if I shareit or not. or if I give permission or not.the competition is heavy andits getting heavier each day.That's why Terry will not tell us hissecrets. (see Terry I understand )he knows if he wants to capture themarket, he better not tell.Only problem is their are guys like me outthere that will find out anyway.bestregardsTony www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 30 18:14:46 2001 f9V0Eja06807 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:14:45 - (authenticated) for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:14:37 -0800 Subject: HTML Friends, Not fussing at anyone in particular, but justmy same old gripe. Would you guys mind settingyour email programs to send messages in plaintext? I don't know enough about computers to tellyou how, but on my computer it's a simpleoperation. I have my computer set to onlydownload the first few lines of any message over50K. Just today, there have been about a dozenmessages to the list larger than that. I'm oldand slow. So is my computer. Getting plain textmessages takes a second or two. Getting htmlmessages takes a minute or two. Please, no replies on the list. Thanks,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 18:26:14 2001 f9V0QCa09899 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:26:13 - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent I think ethically it's a bit deeper than that. If the maker is dead and the tapers are all over the place what's it matter but even then tapers from people like Marinaro are not really available and it's well known (I think so anyhow) the holders of the tapers are against them being copied.If the creator of the taper is alive and publishes the tapers what would you expect? But if the creator is still alive and earning a living from them and has not expressly said it's ok that is something different and it's up to each of us to decide where we stand.If you make a rod for your own use you could possibly justify it by saying you would never have bought one new anyhow though that's not really a legitimate reason in the world of art or books for eg.If you ever sold one you'd have certainly stepped over the line.Just before buying my boat I was determined to build one called a Herrishoff 12-1/2 footer. (16 feet OAL). The guy who designed this boat has been dead for about 70 years or so but I knew the lines were held at MIT so I called them to see about buying the lines and a licence to build one.I was told a deal was made between a builder in the US and the Herrishoff family independently of MIT allowing the builder to make them only from fiberglass and sold by the name of "Dougdish" which was a nickname they had in their early days.MIT told me they'd sell me a set of plans but no lines meaning I had no right to build a boat. I asked them where I stood if I made extrapolated my own lines from the plans and I was told in no uncertain terms I'd be hunted down like a mad dog if I did and MIT were told about it in a legal sense which is unlikely here in Perth but I was also told to definitely NOT call it a 12-1/2 footer if I decided to go against the advise I was given. Maybe something so corney nobody would notice like a Buckineer 16 or Showboat?So it seems not even the death of a creator can prevent copying his/her work in some cases.I know rods are different but it's worth thinking about in ethical terms. Tony At 08:29 AM 10/30/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Reed, I think the originator should always be credited. Many of my rods say"Payne 101 taper" or "Leonard 50DF taper" just to the cork side of mysignature. On the other hand, the PHY Smidgen's that came out .015" overthe intended taper don't blame Paul Young for my mistakes. Neither dotapers that I have significantly modified by intention. I'll take the blame Wait a minute, I just re-read your post... You ask about LIVINGrodmakers? I've also built one that says WC93-4, a code for "WayneCattanach, 7' 9" 4 weight". On the other hand, when I converted Wayne'stwo piece 7' 4 weight to a three piece 7.5' 4 weight, I took the blame.Still, in describing that rod I acknowledge that I based the taper onWayne's well-known Sir D rods. Guess I'm trying to say that I always credit the originator, live ordead, for precise copies. When I start fooling around with the tapers, I'lllive with the blame for any mistakes. As far as sharing living makers' tapers w/o their permission, that'sa tough one. For instance, would George Maurer share his "Starlight CreekSpecial" tapers? And if he would not, (just hypothetical) should I mic arod then share it? I really don't know. Harry Reed Curry wrote: Just a question that seems relevant: Do we have the right (not legal,but ethical) to take tapers from the rods of living rodmakers and sharethem without the consent of the originator? -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Oct 30 18:36:05 2001 f9V0a4a12467 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:36:04 - ([209.178.136.93] helo=g2t8c9) id 15yjMU-0002U7-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:36:07 -0800 Subject: plain text In Outlook go to options, send and choose plain text. Adam from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 18:40:37 2001 f9V0eZa13655 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:40:35 - Subject: Re:dry rot I heard of people breaking down in their cars in desert areas and dying from drinking radiator water with coolant in it until it became common practice to use it and people realised you can't do that any more.I also remember on my first day at a new boat building shop almost at the end of my 4th year of my apprenticeship walking past a kid (1st year apprentice therefor expendable) who was spraying anti fouling on an 80 footer without any protective gear. I told him he'd better dress for the occasion but he said it's ok. None of the really bad stuff's used these days. I doubted he could read let alone understand the contents on the tin label so I asked how he knew and he told me what I expected. It tastes different. Tony At 09:20 AM 10/30/01 -0600, Bob Nunley wrote: Yep, it'll kill dogs, cats and even people if you drink enough of it, butthen again, when I have an antifreeze leak in the drive, we don't have tohave a mass burying of neighborhood pets. I'm not sure what amount perbodyweight it takes to kill an animal and how safe it would be for "Tuffy" ifyou put it on the deck... Bill Lamberson??? Peter McKean??? You guyswantto chime in on this one? sure it's still good is to dip your finger in the radiator... if it's stillsweet it's still working. That sweet taste is why animals like it. Oh, butdon't be a swallower, be a spitter. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: "Ed Riddle" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 6:15 AMSubject: Re:dry rot FYI:Careful with antifreeze if you have pets. I understand some animals areattracted to it and it's deadly if consumed. I believe there's a non-toxic variety available but it's relatively new and not the most commonlyavailble.Ed ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:07 AMSubject: Re:dry rot You'll laugh but try anti freeze. Serious Tony At 09:02 PM 10/29/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do the trick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have a good boat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please let me know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message -----From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw- Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:42 PMSubject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of a product +AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to +AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message -----+AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. +AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 18:49:59 2001 f9V0nva15998 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:49:58 - Subject: RE: dry rot I'm not a pet person so I've never seen the effects as described here but I think the anti freeze is meant to soak into the wood so it wont be a problem in the long run. Like I wrote I haven't used this idea mainly because dry rot on boats is not a common problem here provided you ventilate and paint in the normal way but apparently it is a problem in the US where the boats are hauled in winter and shut up tight.This being the case I'd have thought the anti freeze would soak in because you wouldn't want paint bare sections. Tony Back to the original question, will this kill dogs and cats if you use it totreat lumber from rotting? I believe that the amount that would have to beingested (esp. if you use P.G.) would be so great, that they would die fromsplinters in their tongue first. Remember, glycols are totally soluble inwater, so the long term effectiveness of this technique would be suspect ifthe wood was continually exposed to the weather. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 18:59:34 2001 f9V0xWa18399 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:59:33 - Subject: Re: Yet Another SRG 2001 Post I know you prob didn't mean it in a negative sense but healthy debate is good. The only time everybody is in full agreement is when nothing is gained except a feeling of well being. Tony The best way to explain it is to tell you how really weird it seemedto get back on the computer and see some minor bickering going on.It seemed SO foreign to what I had experienced for three days. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 30 19:03:59 2001 f9V13wa19492 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:03:58 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:04:03 -0500 Subject: Re:Bob I agree ,but I don't think anyone on the list is spoon fed.It just doesn't make sense. it would be easier to read a book than try =to get all the info off the list. especially since everyone does it 50 =different ways.:))if I would have joined the list and then tried to make a rod I would =have been twice as confused.Not to say everyone is not trying to help (they are!) its just better to =follow one method when learning.so while sharing one secret my seem not a good idea, it will not allow =any one maker to control the market. remember it takes more than just =the knowledge of one procedure to make a fine cane rod.I know I don't loose any sleep over it, infact I say "can you make a =better rod?" lets dance:))all you have to do to know where your at is look at another makers rods.Your mind will tell you if you are better or worse. your skill level. all you know is I can make a fishing rod that works.but then again I can put some twine on the end of a willow branch too.Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html Terry is spoon fed.It just doesn't make sense. it would be= read a book than try to get all the info off the list. especially since = does it 50 different ways.:))if I would have joined the list and = make a rod I would have been twice as confused.Not to say everyone is not trying to = are!) its just better to follow one method when learning. rod.I know I don't loose any sleep over it, = say "can you make a better rod?" lets dance:))all you have to do to know where your = another makers rods.Your mind will tell you if you are = worse.So if your not looking at anyone else = can't possibly know your skill level. all you know is I can = fishing rod that works.but then again I can put some twine on= willow branch too.Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from dpeaston@wzrd.com Tue Oct 30 19:09:08 2001 f9V197a20785 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:09:08 - Subject: Re: request for info. Long, interesting, I hope. Bill, Vince Marinaro was also a disciple of Crompton. This is a Quote from "Inthe Ring of the Rise" leftI used to dream of a dry-fly rod - ninefeet long , weighing under 4 oz. It is a will-o'otherwise that I havechased for many years. The solution came about in an interesting way. Inmy early days of rod building I floundered about a great deal until Imade the acquaintance of Robert Crompton, a professional rod-builder fromSt. Paul Minnesota. He was a kindly and sympathetic man who helped me toovercome my difficulties. I owe him a great debt for that early guidance.As a matter of fact,I think that there are other rod builders who owe himthe same kind of debt. That brings me to a consideration of a [third]important step , namely designing of rods in profile. Crompton used to insist over and over again that no rod is fit to be acasting tool if it is made with a straight taper. All those long earlyweepy rods were made with straight tapers. He declared that only convextapers would make a good rod. The convex taper is obtained by swellingthe diameter of the straight taper without changing the diameters of thetip and but. Following Crompton's dictum, a great many rods with convextapers were put on the market by one manufacturer back in the early1930's. I examined them and found them to be very disappointing. Theywere indeed stiff, but clubby in the hand and lacked the sensitivityrequired for short casts. Eventually they went off the market. In thelight of my experience in later years I found that the mistake lay in thebad management of both the diameters and the convex tapers. Convex tapers are not a new thing. They originated thousands of yearsago in man's early architecture and were used principally as an aestheticdevice to satisfy the eye in viewing the columns of temples. A convextaper looks straight. A straight taper does not. Later the convexprinciple was used to stiffen ship's masts against excessive bending.Today it is often used in the barreled arrow shafts of the archer inorder to spine them for a larger bow, while retaining small diameter andlighter weight. For many years I experimented a good deal with convextapers and made some very good rods. But I was always obsessed with the In my experiments I found that there are widely differing results in theuse of convex tapers, depending on where the peak of the swell is put inthe rod. It can be placed toward the butt end , in the middle and nearthe tip... I cannot recall in my rod building of having overlooked any known typeof rod action, all the way from parabolic to the old tip-action dry flytournament type. I had, and still have, a fondness for the tip action. Ithas the greatest effective casting length because it is stiff for twothirds of it's length, allowing for a high back cast. It is inherentlymore accurate than any other type. I found , however that the tips brokevery quickly. The butt action parabolics with their thick clubby tipswere not suitable for my purposes. I also have some objections to theprogressive taper where the bending begins near the hand and graduallyincreases toward the tip. [Both these types tend to weave in casting andtheir error is magnified with the extension of the cast]. I have agonizedlonger and more often over the last one or on and one half feet of a rodthan any other part. The great blessing of the convex design lies in thepossibility of controlling the amount of bending or tip fall over so thatit remains just about the same on short weak casts as on long casts. Marinaro' solution to the 9' for 5 wt is to make a compoundrod with a slightly convex tapered swelled butt, a convex mid with theswell in the middle and a convex tip section with the swell about 2/3 ofthe way to the tip. Of this type of rod he says: leftThe rod. .. has the virtues of the dry-flytip-action rod plus the durability of the parabolic and the progressivetapers. The latter are more durable because the bend is spread out over agreater length [No sharp peaks in the stress curve.] The butt joint of myprojected rod was no problem. I wanted it stiff enough to confine theaction to the upper regions. ... The middle joint where most of the bendwould take place needed to be a modified or delayed convex. The desiredeffect here was to soften and the bend over a greater area than in afragile tip-action rod. The top joint needed the refinement for delicacyin short casts, plus some stiffening from the convex design to preventexcessive fall over from long casts. These are the Words of Vincent C. Marinaro Esq. -Doug left At 02:43 PM 10/30/2001 -0500, Reed Curry wrote: Bill, Krieder was a disciple of Crompton's. I'm not aware that Crompton published anything, but he was a strong advocate of pentas. Apart from remarks in McClane's books and Herter's Rodmaking book, I can't recall any references to Crompton. [Herter said Crompton used 4 guides on his mids, five on his tips, but none on his butts, e.g., no stripper.] ebay is usually a good source for old Herter's catalogues. Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ Thanks, Bill -- from ajthramer@hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 19:18:26 2001 f9V1IPa22989 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:18:25 - Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:18:20 -0800 Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:18:20 GMT Subject: Re: Now I understand the taper issue FILETIME=[EDBB58D0:01C161A9] I have a dandy Leonard Tounament from the 20's that is a deam, simply not what the current fashion is at 9 1/2ft for a 5wt. Jim P changed the LOOK of the rods but did he change the tapers? Powell was a solitary genius whose tapers were designed via a completely differnet method than the Eastern or Midwestern builders. As I stated in an earlier post they borrowed tapers between themselves without regard to ownership. I dare say it is difficult to find out where a taper started with some of the more common ones.The sarcasm of the post below however evades me.A.J. From: "Chris Raine" Subject: Now I understand the taper issueDate: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:35:51 - 0800 I get it now. Nobody made a good taper until Garrison, Payne, Powell, Gillum, Dickerson et al circa 1930-1950. 1880 to 1930 was a wasteland. Glad we found this out. And none of the above builders stole any tapers from previous builders. Nice to have this straightened out. Chris _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 19:33:04 2001 f9V1X2a26491 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:33:03 - Subject: Re: Tapers I don't think it was a co-incidence AJ. Terry is a... well you know terry but he's not always wrong. Tony A final note to those who don't think it makes a difference, I was selling 8-10 of my 4'4" rods per year until about a month after I posted the taper to the list. It has been at least 18mo and I have sold only one of them. Coincidence? Maybe. In the outside world tastes have changed away fromthe predominence of short rods back to fishing rods again. Was there anything wrong with all those who used the taper? Abolutely not, it was freely given for use by all as they see fit. A.J. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 19:51:50 2001 f9V1pma00784 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:51:48 - Subject: Re: copying your tapers Just do as you like, it's up to you to do as your conscience dictates. The issue at hand here is the moral one most on list need to think about more and more as more makers arrive and more tapers are out in the public.This is healthy debate, not bickering. There is a difference. The alternative is we split the list into pro "I don't give a damn" and Pro "you oughtn't do". Then we can splinter further from there as more bickering takes place.I don't want to be critical but having everybody in perfect accord on a subject is no way to progress.Ask questions, don't apologize and do as you see fit. Tony At 02:22 PM 10/30/01 -0800, Lynette Boyko wrote: Lot of bickering going on this site about your tapers. I have not been lucky enough to got my first one built, I like most, I am leaning towards the Payne 4wt Perfect...I am enjoying reading about all this bamboo rod building stuff, making my equipment and all of that just to get to the point of making my first rod. If somebody does not want me to copy their rod taper, please tell me so as I do not want to offend you anyway. If you are in this as a business and want to make money at it, I understand, don't give out your tapers as I don't have the time to waste on you and fight with you. Don't get me wrong, I am not mad or bitter or any thing like that, its just that I don't have the time for people over something they say is theirs.Time is to precious kto waste on this, one minute somebody wants to blow us up like in New York. I am into building a rod be it bamboo or grafite to get to the river and fight another dam brown trout. If this dont make sense, then mahybed I am in the wrong crowd...Birddog /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from briansr@point-net.com Tue Oct 30 19:54:28 2001 f9V1sQa01453 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:54:26 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:15:42 -0500 Subject: Lathe parts Many thanks to one and all for the info on the Atlas bearings.Cheers Brian from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 30 19:58:29 2001 f9V1wRa02490 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:58:28 - , Subject: Re:dry rot Might have been in the US. I've seen stuff sold that has the basis of anti freeze as the active agents with other new improved stuff as well but never used it at all. My boat lives on a mooring all year and it's pretty open being a racer design with a boom tent over the cockpit so ventilation isn't an issue at all.I think it's a good idea to use good ventilation or even a remote air source for everything to do with boats though. [:-)] Saw a message suggesting using an epoxy to cover the problem area butthat may be worse unless you can be sure of completely encapsulating the whole thing.Possibly it'd be better to remove the rotten part and scarf in a new section? Tony At 03:20 PM 10/30/01 -0800, Lee Freeman wrote: Wasn't that stuff called "Callahans"? It has been many years since I soldmy sloop, but I seem to remember using some of that stuff under theforepeak. Worked great, as I remember. Needed ventilation while drying.Badly! Lee Freeman----- Original Message -----From: Tony Young Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 2:07 AMSubject: Re:dry rot You'll laugh but try anti freeze. Serious Tony At 09:02 PM 10/29/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do thetrick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have agoodboat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please let me know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message -----From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw- Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:42 PMSubject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of a product +AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to+AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message -----+AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. +AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from SBDunn@aol.com Tue Oct 30 20:01:29 2001 f9V21Sa03284 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:01:28 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:01:30 - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent It seems to me that copying the taper is the tip of the ethical iceberg. Imagine a rack full of bamboo rods by various makers. They could all have the same taper and the casual observer wouldn't know it, but they would probably be able to separate the individual makers by their cosmetics. If tapers are sacred (and, by the way, I believe they should be when the maker is doing it as his vocation) then shouldn't the cosmetics be? Whoowns red wraps with black tipping? Who gets to use a half wells grip? Will future rods say "Thramer taper, Heddon Silks, Granger Reel Seat, Payne Stripper, Joe Blow - Maker". The writing would extend to the tiptop and long rods would come back in style. Regards, Steve Dunn. from bob@downandacross.com Tue Oct 30 20:11:04 2001 f9V2B3a05488 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:11:03 - Oct 2001 21:11:01 -0500 Subject: non-rodmaking: help with MS Outlook Could someone who has a lot of experience with Outlook please contact meofflist? I need to backup my Power Fibers contact database so I can redo myXP update to be a clean install. I have a few other brainteasers for you,and I know the list is such a collection of amazing brains, I ask yourforgiveness for this intrusion, but I figured it was my best bet.Thanks, Bob Maulucci218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716- 867-0523 cellularhttp://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com from lblove@omniglobal.net Tue Oct 30 20:29:16 2001 f9V2TAa09373 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:29:10 - Subject: srg/morgan mill Hey guys,who did the Morgan Mill demo?I've seen the pics of Darrin's and was justwondering. Brad from dpeaston@wzrd.com Tue Oct 30 20:29:17 2001 f9V2TGa09396 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:29:16 - "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: copying your tapers All, Bamboo flyrods are like planes. Many makes (Stanley/Record) are verysimilar and are probably that way because one company emulates another. Inorder that one can properly identify the maker of such a product the "trademark" was invented. These marks are clearly distinctive and are protected taper by convergence on a good design. It has always been that way. No one,however can use someone else's registered trade mark. Ethical issues aside, a Pain rod is not a PAYNE rod. People expect aconsistent level of quality in materials and workmanship from a given makerand the trade mark on the product assures this. The bottom line, I think isthat using another rod maker's name (PAYNE 102 taper) to sell a productcomes very close to trademark infringement- particularly when the maker orhis successors is still active. Unfortunately the cost of bringing a damagesuit against someone who engages in this practice is prohibitive. I think that you can describe a rod in terms of its action, as "much like aPAYNE 102" and be both safe and ethical. This is a functional claim notclaim to have duplicated someone else's taper. -Doug from SBDunn@aol.com Tue Oct 30 20:54:32 2001 f9V2sVa14687 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:54:31 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:54:31 - Subject: Jig For Sawing Cane If somebody already posted this information, I apologize for the repeat. About a week or so ago, somebody inquired about a jig for sawing cane. Tonight I was looking at my copy of "The Wise Fisherman's Encyclopedia" and found plans for a pretty simple jig pictured on page 985. Looks like you could build it from two 2 by 4's if you have a table saw. Regards, Steve Dunn. from pohl@earthlink.net Tue Oct 30 20:57:59 2001 f9V2vwa15249 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:57:58 - helo=pohl) id 15ylZt-0000bT-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:58:05 -0800 Subject: In search of taper for rod I'm in the process of building my first bamboo flyrod and am in search =of a taper that would be ideal for my fishing style. I'm looking to =build a 7' medium action (mid flex, too a little above mid) progressive =taper rod that will load up quikly to cast a double taper 4wt (ideal rod =wt ~ 3.75 wt) from 20 to 40 ft with ability to control the loop size. It =should also be able to turn over a 15 ft. 7x leader and have a little =extra power if needed. That's my ideal rod, do you have any suggestions? = I'm = flex, too a little above mid) progressive taper rod that will load up = cast a double taper 4wt (ideal rod wt ~ 3.75 wt) from 20 to 40 ft with = to control the loop size. It should also be able to turn over a 15 ft. = and have a little extra power if needed. That's my ideal rod, do you = from stpete@netten.net Tue Oct 30 21:08:32 2001 f9V38Va17322 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:08:32 - forged)) Subject: Re: dry rot "Miller, Troy" wrote: Back to the original question, will this kill dogs and cats if you use it totreat lumber from rotting? I believe that the amount that would have tobeingested (esp. if you use P.G.) would be so great, that they would die fromsplinters in their tongue first. Remember, glycols are totally soluble inwater, so the long term effectiveness of this technique would be suspectifthe wood was continually exposed to the weather. Rick -- mind throwing this to our wife? [:)] Troy, Our wife?? Don't tempt my wife into taking a second husband. She alreadyclaims she needs one to do the chores while I'm playing with flies, fish, orrods. She would dump me quick if she didn't have the moral character thatrequires her to keep her promises.THE wife is quite knowledgeable about many subjects, but one which shedoesnot claim to be an authority in is in animal science. The glycols are solublein water and will not last long on the deck unless it is in very arid climates.I would think that its use for treatment of dry rot would be temporary atbestin any climate. No idea on how toxic it would be to animals in such anapplication. My guess is not much. Rick, primary husband to the wife. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Oct 30 21:17:16 2001 f9V3HFa18916 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:17:15 - ([209.178.134.117] helo=g2t8c9) id 15ylsY-0000tR-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:17:22 -0800 Subject: ethics and copyright A lot of talk about rods and their tapers. The fact is you could spendhours developing your own original tapers only to find it has been inproduction for 50 years. Now maybe it is time to get to the nitty gritty.We are discussing tapers from makers who are making a living off of rods.Well what about ferrules, snake guides, reel seats, winding checks, rodcases? Many of us make those items and yet we did not originate them andthere are companies who are making a living off of these items. Somebodymade these items originally, but when it comes to copying them the "rights"of the originators are overlooked. Maybe we should step down our high horse and make rods. And lets face itthetaper is a small part of what sells a rod. If a unknown maker and a famousmaker create an identical rod, which one is going to sell first and for themost money? I know one maker that is behind 50 orders for rods (you knowwhoyou are). Me thinks his reputation as a consummate craftsman sold the rodlong before the customer even casted it. This issue was dealt with many years ago just ask Colt and Smith andWesson. By the way Smith and Wesson do not put revolver design by Colt ontheir guns. We shouldn't be doing it on our rods. Adam Vigil And Now For Something Completely Different! from channer@frontier.net Tue Oct 30 21:28:20 2001 f9V3SJa21159 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:28:19 - for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:34:19 - Subject: Re: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Bob;Sure makes sense to me! This thread could be titled"Here we go again"seeing as this has been covered umpteen times. I have said before andwill say again, I never put another makers name on my rods, even tho Iuse existing tapers. This is not to take credit away from anyone, butbecause I don't feel that any rods not made by the original maker ofthat taper can be exactly the same, there are just too many variablesinvolved, not the least of which is the competence and precision of theperson who measured the original. I think all the tapers from classicrods that are floating around to be merely theory, the few out therethat are from the originators taper books, such as Garrison's tapers,Wayne Cattenach's and A.J. Thramer's, are the only ones that can betrusted as being what the original maker actually made. Basically whatI'm saying is that if I make a rod to So And So's taper and it doesn'tturn out to be as good a rod as the orignal, I don't want my poorimitation to reflect badly on him. When I make a custom rod, I do tellthe buyer what taper I have used, but that is for his informatiom and Iexplain that those are just the numbers I started with, what the finalrod is may or may not be the same. I prefer to have my rods sell ontheir own merits, not by riding someone else's coat tails. Just myhumble opinion and the rest of you please do whatever feels right toyou.john Bob Nunley wrote: My take. I think it depends on your situation. If you are a hobbyistmaker, making a rod for a friend and you want to use a taper developed living rodmaker for a rod for your use or as a gift to a friend, then by allmeans make the rod.On the other hand, in my situation, I make rods for a living. I don'tthink it's right for me to use George Maurer's Starlight Creek Special orMike Clarks tapers, or Bob Summers Tapers and sell those rods without aletter from one of them that says "Sure Bob, I don't care if you use mytaper and make money on it!". That would be profitting from the work ofothers. There are exceptions to this rule, and those would be makerswhofreely share their tapers and just don't care. Wayne does this, so do I....someone wants to use one of my tapers, they are more than welcome toit. Iwould just as soon not have my name on the rod, however. After all,theydid the hard part of it, not me... didn't get any glue on my shirt puttingit together...If a maker freely shares and/or publishes his tapers, fine to usethem... he is giving his permission. If not, then he probably considersthem proprietary and would just as soon that someone else doesn't usehistapers, even if they put credit under the varnish, and I hate to say this,but many would prefer that you did NOT put their name on a rod thatthey didnot make, even if it's only for purposes of crediting them withsomething.Look at it this way. Say this is your rod #2... you got the tip a littlehotter than you planned while straightening, wrote Billy Bob Rodmaker'snameunder the varnish to credit him with the taper, a few trips of fishing andthe tip breaks... all of a sudden, you have a rod that failed that has areputable makers name written on it, and the first thing someone else isgoing to think is, "Hey, the rest of the rod is beautiful. Tip must'vebroke because it was a bad taper... Hmmmm... says on the rod it's a BillyBob Rodmaker Copy... Remind me never to buy one of old Billy Bob's rodsbecause the tips break on them." Make sense? Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Fly Rodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: "Reed Curry" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 8:04 AMSubject: Sharing/using tapers without the maker's consent Just a question that seems relevant: Do we have the right (not legal,but ethical) to take tapers from the rods of living rodmakers andsharethem without the consent of the originator? And if we do use thetapers,should the originator be acknowledged?--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from bob@downandacross.com Tue Oct 30 21:40:43 2001 f9V3efa23758 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:40:42 - Subject: RE: Jig For Sawing Cane Okay, I will spill beans on my latest project. I have been sawing strips,flattening nodes, soaking them and planing them out. They don't chip out onthe Hand Mill so far, and they are the straightest blanks I have had in awhile on thicker quad butts. (The inability to properly straighten a quadsteelhead rod butt section was what gave me the impetus to try sawing).I use a table saw with a 1/8hp Delta power stock feeder and a fence. I use a3/32 kerf 7'5" circular saw (and a 1/16" kerf would be even better).I have made the Wise Fishermen's jig, and it is fine if you have in and outrollers (or get some help). The reason why I abandoned that jig is simplybecause the power feed keeps my hands far far away from the blade. It doescreate a good bit of waste, but not that bad. Just saw through enough to getthrough the outside of the culm, but leave the diaframs in tact so the culmstays in tact. I saw into quarters and then to 8 then to 16 (plenty forquads). I have found the middle of the 12' culms to be the straightest andeasiest to use. It helps to sand or file down the nodes so that the culmwill glide over the table a bit easier. Not every culm will be a goodcandidate. You need straight culms with as little as possible variance ondiameter over their length. Radical thick to thin culms do not work wellbecause the angle caused by this gives you an uneven contact with yourfence.You might also try this (I will soon enough). Make a jig with two springloaded wheels that hang down from above. You can offset them so that theywill guide the whole culm centered over the blade. This will also eliminatekick back from the spinning blade. This is sort of backwards from theLeonard saw, but it might work. I will try to post a picture of the Leonardsaw for those who want to see it.I am hoping to have a Leonard style saw soon, but we will see. So far sogood. I am only using this on experimental blanks, and not for sale rods. Wewill see how these strips hold up, but I am sure they will be fine.Best regards, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Jig For Sawing Cane If somebody already posted this information, I apologize for the repeat. About a week or so ago, somebody inquired about a jig for sawing cane.Tonight I was looking at my copy of "The Wise Fisherman's Encyclopedia" andfound plans for a pretty simple jig pictured on page 985. Looks like youcould build it from two 2 by 4's if you have a table saw. Regards, Steve Dunn. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 30 21:46:26 2001 f9V3kPa25099 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:46:25 - (authenticated) Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:46:10 -0800 Subject: Re: copying your tapers Doug, Reed, and others, You've really made me think about this. I guess I'm naive, but I honestlynever thought about using the "Payne 101 taper" as a marketing gimmick. Istarted signing my rods that way out of a sincere respect for those whohavegone before. That's the absolute truth. The question arises whether or not I will change what I do. Chances arenot good that I'll quit crediting the originators. I'd never use a taper thatsomeone who developed it didn't want me to use. I remember a line fromGarrison saying that he was primarily a rod designer, and a builder second.Well, I'm just the opposite. For the most part I use tapers others havedeveloped, tweaked here and there, smoothed out a little, with the tipsincreased or decreased a little, and so on. But I don't have the inclinationto sit with graph paper and pencil, or hexrod, or any of the other tools, anddesign original tapers. So I'll keep on crediting those who do, not as amarketing ploy, but out of respect. Harry "Douglas P. Easton" wrote: The bottom line, I think is that using another rod maker's name (PAYNE102taper) to sell a product comes very close to trademark infringement-particularly when the maker or his successors is still active. Unfortunatelythe cost of bringing a damage suit against someone who engages in thispractice is prohibitive. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from bob@downandacross.com Tue Oct 30 21:55:43 2001 f9V3tga27447 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:55:42 - Subject: RE: In search of taper for rod What was that Powell taper from a week or so back? That might work.My favorite 7ish rod is the Driggs River Special at 7'2". Everyone who castsit says, "Wow!" (This happened this weekend at the WNY get together, and Iwas really thrilled by it). Not my genius, but Paul Young's. Just for thesake of today's thread, the rod says "Bob Maulucci-maker, PHY7213" Thatgives credit to Mr. Young, the length, and ferrule size. I never make anybones about it that I use that taper for sale rods. However, if I build arod designed by Bob N or Mr. Degere, those stay in my arsenal because thatis only fair to their hard work. My few "sale" tapers are all modified deadguy tapers, heavy on the hex to quad conversions. Yes, I have some prettycool tapers from modern quad guys, but I got them from people who own therods, and I have them because the people who sent them know I am not goingto give them out or try to profit off of someone else's intellectualproperty. I have built a few though, and they are pretty awesome, but I feelthat I am doing fine on my own. Sorry for the rant....Best regards,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: In search of taper for rod I'm in the process of building my first bamboo flyrod and am in search of ataper that would be ideal for my fishing style. I'm looking to build a 7'medium action (mid flex, too a little above mid) progressive taper rod thatwill load up quikly to cast a double taper 4wt (ideal rod wt ~ 3.75 wt) from20 to 40 ft with ability to control the loop size. It should also be able toturn over a 15 ft. 7x leader and have a little extra power if needed. That'smy ideal rod, do you have any suggestions? Thanks, Mark from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Oct 30 22:00:41 2001 f9V40ea28792 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:00:40 - Rodmakers Subject: Re: copying your tapers unless you can duplicate the exact process that Payne subjected his cane tothen you could never duplicate a Payne. Douglas P. Easton wrote: All, Bamboo flyrods are like planes. Many makes (Stanley/Record) are verysimilar and are probably that way because one company emulates another.Inorder that one can properly identify the maker of such a product the"trademark" was invented. These marks are clearly distinctive and are protected taper by convergence on a good design. It has always been that way. Noone,however can use someone else's registered trade mark. Ethical issues aside, a Pain rod is not a PAYNE rod. People expect aconsistent level of quality in materials and workmanship from a givenmakerand the trade mark on the product assures this. The bottom line, I think isthat using another rod maker's name (PAYNE 102 taper) to sell a productcomes very close to trademark infringement- particularly when the makerorhis successors is still active. Unfortunately the cost of bringing a damagesuit against someone who engages in this practice is prohibitive. I think that you can describe a rod in terms of its action, as "much like aPAYNE 102" and be both safe and ethical. This is a functional claim notclaim to have duplicated someone else's taper. -Doug from martinrjensen@home.com Tue Oct 30 22:07:28 2001 f9V47Ra00523 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:07:27 - femail45.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:07:30 -0800 Subject: RE: HTML Not to start an argument, but I see only 2 messages up to or over 50 KBin size, both of which had attachments. The smallest attachments was49KB. The other one was 59KB. This goes back to OCT 1st. I see no otherlarge messages most of them were like 10 to 20 KB. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: HTML Friends, Not fussing at anyone in particular, but justmy same old gripe. Would you guys mind settingyour email programs to send messages in plaintext? I don't know enough about computers to tellyou how, but on my computer it's a simpleoperation. I have my computer set to onlydownload the first few lines of any message over50K. Just today, there have been about a dozenmessages to the list larger than that. I'm oldand slow. So is my computer. Getting plain textmessages takes a second or two. Getting htmlmessages takes a minute or two. Please, no replies on the list. Thanks,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ --Our Church -- from bob@downandacross.com Tue Oct 30 22:14:35 2001 f9V4EYa02223 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:14:34 - "Rodmakers" Subject: RE: copying your tapers Exactly Terry. And furthermore, a 5" center translation will not give youall the intricacies of a milled rod. I am also sure that the classic makers'stockpile of seasoned cane makes a tremendous difference as well.Best regards,BobPS., I cast one of Harry's Payne 100 based rods this weekend, and it was oneof the finest rods I have ever handled. I am sure that in cases like that, atalented modern maker (very talented in Harry's case) can add somethingspecial to a classic. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: copying your tapers unless you can duplicate the exact process that Payne subjected his cane tothen you could never duplicate a Payne. from bob@downandacross.com Tue Oct 30 22:16:23 2001 f9V4GMa02770 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:16:22 - "'Rodmakers'" Subject: RE: HTML Martin:Do you know how to permanently change your output in Outlook to plain text?I seem to have set it as plain text, but every once in a while I reply to amessage and get blue text when I type?Thanks,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: HTML Not to start an argument, but I see only 2 messages up to or over 50 KBin size, both of which had attachments. The smallest attachments was49KB. The other one was 59KB. This goes back to OCT 1st. I see no otherlarge messages most of them were like 10 to 20 KB. Martin Jensen from dpeaston@wzrd.com Tue Oct 30 22:36:01 2001 f9V4a0a07195 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:36:00 - Subject: RE: In search of taper for rod Bob, My point is that one needs to be careful to distinguish between copying arod with emulating a rod's action.If A.J.'s rods often cast like Grangersthat cast like Paynes, that's fine as long as he doesn't say that he isduplicating the older rods and trading on their names. For example "Get anew Payne for half the price of an original." I don't think that you aredoing that. My reaction to your Driggs was Wow, what a nice action, how didyou do that? You then said that you used a Young taper- "Driggs River."Your rod stood on its own!! - DougPS: I think I must have way too much time on my hands. At 10:55 PM 10/30/2001 -0500, Downandacross Rod Company wrote: What was that Powell taper from a week or so back? That might work.My favorite 7ish rod is the Driggs River Special at 7'2". Everyone who castsit says, "Wow!" (This happened this weekend at the WNY get together, and Iwas really thrilled by it). Not my genius, but Paul Young's. Just for thesake of today's thread, the rod says "Bob Maulucci-maker, PHY7213" Thatgives credit to Mr. Young, the length, and ferrule size. I never make anybones about it that I use that taper for sale rods. However, if I build arod designed by Bob N or Mr. Degere, those stay in my arsenal because thatis only fair to their hard work. My few "sale" tapers are all modified deadguy tapers, heavy on the hex to quad conversions. Yes, I have some prettycool tapers from modern quad guys, but I got them from people who owntherods, and I have them because the people who sent them know I am notgoingto give them out or try to profit off of someone else's intellectualproperty. I have built a few though, and they are pretty awesome, but I feelthat I am doing fine on my own. Sorry for the rant....Best regards,Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 9:53 PM Subject: In search of taper for rod I'm in the process of building my first bamboo flyrod and am in search of ataper that would be ideal for my fishing style. I'm looking to build a 7'medium action (mid flex, too a little above mid) progressive taper rod thatwill load up quikly to cast a double taper 4wt (ideal rod wt ~ 3.75 wt) from20 to 40 ft with ability to control the loop size. It should also be able toturn over a 15 ft. 7x leader and have a little extra power if needed. That'smy ideal rod, do you have any suggestions? Thanks, Mark from jczimny@dol.net Tue Oct 30 22:40:05 2001 f9V4e4a08306 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:40:04 - Organization: J. C. Zimny Rod Company Subject: Re: copying your tapers I think I'd like to share an incident that occured almost 18 months ago. I a quad to a friend of mine who wanted to cast it. While he had it, anotherrodmaker who is more or a less a beginner measured the dimensionswithout mypermission. Within two months, that maker was selling that rod on theinternet.I think that this incident has made me much less forthcoming withinformation.Keep in mind that the taper took 14 attempts and 3 years of development( trialand error) to get it just right. I think that this was just pure theft. There isno excuse for it. I remember well when I started in rodmaking almost twenty years ago thatnone ofthe professional rod makers ( Kusse, Carpenter, Kustin) would give abeginner thetime of day - let alone what glue to use or how to adjust a binder. Rod makinglore was held very tight to the vest. Perhaps these makers had the sameexperiencethat I did. I think, at the very least, a maker using a taper from another should give thedesigner credit for his work. I would be a good thing if we could continue to keep the kind of free exchangeofinformation that Wayne C. established some years ago. I not sure that wecan dothis if there is a continual "lifting" (without aknowlegement) of others' work. JohnZ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 30 22:53:42 2001 f9V4rfa10394 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:53:41 - (authenticated) Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:53:32 -0800 Subject: Re: HTML Martin, No arguments here. Some of those messages, come to think of it, mayhave been from other lists. And some were probably personal messagesaddressed only to me and included attachments (SRG pictures). Still, itdoes slow my computer down, and far too often completely locks it up, whenmessages are sent in html. Best,Harry Martin Jensen wrote: Not to start an argument, but I see only 2 messages up to or over 50 KBin size -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from bob@downandacross.com Tue Oct 30 22:57:34 2001 f9V4vXa10725 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:57:33 - Subject: RE: copying your tapers Hi John:I missed that post that you replied to. I agree that is theft, and we take putting my very part-time self into that category, but a guy like Ron Kussespends 70+ hours in his shop a week. Wow!). With so fews guys selling quads,it isn't hard to track those types down. In some ways, the quad builders arethe most tight lipped, but a gentlemen would not even dare ask for thosesecrets and tapers. It's all about tact ( I was not sure how to spell"couth?")Best regards,Bobps., I am not familiar with Kustin. Who is he? -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: copying your tapers I think I'd like to share an incident that occured almost 18 months ago. I a quad to a friend of mine who wanted to cast it. While he had it, another rodmaker who is more or a less a beginner measured the dimensionswithout my permission. Within two months, that maker was selling that rod on the internet. I think that this incident has made me much less forthcoming with information. Keep in mind that the taper took 14 attempts and 3 years of development ( trial and error) to get it just right. I think that this was just pure theft. There is no excuse for it. I remember well when I started in rodmaking almost twenty years ago thatnone ofthe professional rod makers ( Kusse, Carpenter, Kustin) would give abeginner thetime of day - let alone what glue to use or how to adjust a binder. Rodmakinglore was held very tight to the vest. Perhaps these makers had the sameexperiencethat I did. I think, at the very least, a maker using a taper from another should givethedesigner credit for his work. I would be a good thing if we could continue to keep the kind of freeexchange ofinformation that Wayne C. established some years ago. I not sure that wecandothis if there is a continual "lifting" (without aknowlegement) of others'work. JohnZ from martinrjensen@home.com Tue Oct 30 23:06:12 2001 f9V56Ca11230 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:06:12 - femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:06:15 -0800 Subject: RE: copying your tapers Personally, If I copy a taper from another designer I acknowledge it inthe name. I built a taper of the Payne 102 rod a while back. My taperwas so far off that all I said when someone ask what taper it was, wasthat it was "inspired" by Payne. The following one I call a Payne 102copy, as it is fairly close to the measurements that I have for thisrod. Personally, if I hold a taper to within .005 or a designer, I willacknowledge that it is that persons taper. I doubt that you could tellthe difference between tapers if you were within .005. Maybe if everymeasurement was .005 off you could tell... Usually it is the occasionalmeasurement that is off. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: copying your tapers I think I'd like to share an incident that occured almost 18 months ago. I sent a quad to a friend of mine who wanted to cast it. While he had it, another rodmaker who is more or a less a beginner measured the dimensions without my permission. Within two months, that maker was selling that rod on the internet. I think that this incident has made me much less forthcoming with information. Keep in mind that the taper took 14 attempts and 3 years of development ( trial and error) to get it just right. I think that this was just pure theft. There is no excuse for it. I remember well when I started in rodmaking almost twenty years ago thatnone of the professional rod makers ( Kusse, Carpenter, Kustin) wouldgive a beginner the time of day - let alone what glue to use or how toadjust a binder. Rod making lore was held very tight to the vest.Perhaps these makers had the same experience that I did. I think, at the very least, a maker using a taper from another shouldgive the designer credit for his work. I would be a good thing if we could continue to keep the kind of freeexchange of information that Wayne C. established some years ago. I notsure that we can do this if there is a continual "lifting" (withoutaknowlegement) of others' work. JohnZ from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Oct 30 23:36:58 2001 f9V5aua12295 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:36:56 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:37:02 -0500 Subject: Re:Copying your tapers JohnWhat that guy did by taking your taper was not very cool at all.And I for one can certainly see how you would have not been happy about =it.It would make me upset if that happened to me.but I 'm trying to look back in my memory when I first seen Bamboo rods =at the Southfield show in Michigan in 93.I immediately wanted to be a maker. I seen Kulic's rods and many other fine makers.sorry if spelling is off.So I did what most do I bought a book or two on the subject.Why? because when I asked questions, lips were tight.I understand this now:))But you might notice I said Bought books.Since I have thanked these makers and the book writers numerous times. =And I feel they deserve it.:)) my debt is paid in full.with money and appreciation.But never the less I paid for the information. It was not given totally =free of charge. These makers have made money (probably not a fortune . =But they can't be poor either, some even make a living out of it.And at the time, the money for the books almost broke my bank account. =so what I'm getting at is when do we say OK lets let some new guys make =rods and sell them.the book guys didn't just one day say hey I'm gonna make bamboo and just =think it up in there head.I'm sure they started by asking and even copying tapers.only after they became masters did they probably invent tapers.so I don't see to much wrong with people copying tapers.Remember when I talk to most makers they say you can't make a living out =of rodmaking. But some are.:))I can under stand how lost sales might make them upset when they see =allot of new people entering the trade.but then again they sold us the books, they told us the secrets.I don't think it would be right for those makers to come along now and =say others are copying them. Which most don't:))the only guys that seem to be concerned are the guys who bought the =books a few years before I did and didn't think anyone could possible do =it except them.So as long as I make the rod, put only my name on it,and don'tput another name on it ,I think I'm legally and morally ok.my suggestion for those who don't want your tapers stolen isDon't sell rods. I will NOT steal your taper, but rest assured someone =else will. You can bank on it.This is like 20 guys in a room with only one Beautiful girl.Everyone wants some. Can you believe none of those guys won't act like =dogs?just some food for thought No offense intended.Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} JohnWhat that guy did by taking your taper was not very cool at =all. It would make me upset if that happened to me.but I 'm trying to look back in my memory when I first seen Bamboo = the Southfield show in Michigan in 93.I immediately wanted to be a maker. = I seen Kulic's rods and many other fine makers.sorry if spelling is = off.So I did what most do I bought a book or two on the subject.Why? because when I asked questions, lips were tight.I understand this now:))But you might notice I said Bought books.Since I have thanked these makers and the book writers numerous = with money and appreciation.But never the less I paid for the information. It was not given = they can't be poor either, some even make a living out of it.And at the time, the money for the books almost broke my bank = what I'm getting at is when do we say OK lets let some new guys make = sell them.the book guys didn't just one day say hey I'm gonna make bamboo and = think it up in there head.I'm sure they started by asking and even copying tapers.only after they became masters did they probably invent =tapers.so I don't see to much wrong with people copying tapers.Remember when I talk to most makers they say you can't make a = I can under stand how lost sales might make them upset when they = of new people entering the trade.but then again they sold us the books, they told us the =secrets.I don't think it would be right for those makers to come along now = others are copying them. Which most don't:))the only guys that seem to be concerned are the guys who bought the= few years before I did and didn't think anyone could possible do it = them.So as long as I make the rod, put only my name on it,and =don'tput another name on it ,I think I'm legally and morally ok.my suggestion for those who don't want your tapers stolen isDon't sell rods. I will NOT steal your taper, but rest assured = will. You can bank on it.This is like 20 guys in a room with only one Beautiful girl.Everyone wants some. Can you believe none of those guys won't act = dogs?just some food for thought No offense intended.Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 23:40:33 2001 f9V5eWa12698 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:40:32 - Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:40:35 -0800 Wed, 31 Oct 2001 05:40:35 GMT Subject: Re: In search of taper for rod FILETIME=[9032F360:01C161CE] Mark: from the sound of what you're looking for, it seems that you want a rod fordry fly fishing. It has a compound taper with a fairly light tip, just right for along 7X leader. As for the ability to control the loop, that's up to the casterand the rod won't do it for you. The line will follow the path of the tip of the in search of a taper that would be ideal for my fishing style. I'm looking tobuild a 7' medium action (mid flex, too a little above mid) progressive taperrod that will load up quikly to cast a double taper 4wt (ideal rod wt ~ 3.75 wt) from 20 to 40 ft with ability to control the loop size. It should also be able toturn over a 15 ft. 7x leader and have a little extra power if needed. That'smy ideal rod, do you have any suggestions? Thanks, Mark Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Oct 30 23:49:25 2001 f9V5nPa13343 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:49:25 - ([209.178.135.98] helo=g2t8c9) id 15yoFi-0000qO-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:49:26 -0800 Subject: Re: copying your tapers Corporate spying, To actually take a rod and measure it, then to replicate it is pretty muchwhat it appears to be. It is called RIP OFF. We all pretty much now whattapers are up for grabs. Years ago I collected custom knives. Rodmaking and knifemaking have a lot incommon. The knife makers have formed guilds one is The Knife Makers Guildand the other if I remember correctly is the American Bladesmith Society.The knife making guild has rules and guidelines as to methods and conductand the Bladesmith Society is for those which forge blades and they mustpass a test and have a code of ethics. Maybe it is finally time for a Cane rodmakers guild. It may help make clearwhat proper ettique and ethics in rodmaking are needed. Those who belongagree to follow a certain code of ethics in making as well selling. These guilds have worked for knifemakers for 25 years. And when you haveaknife made buy a member a certain surety goes with it. Why dont we discuss this. Maybe some agreement will finally clear up thismuddy subject. It would only take a few to agree and maybe we can start towith those who would be proud to build with some ethics. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- I think that this was just pure theft. There is no excuse for it. I not sure that we can dothis if there is a continual "lifting" (without aknowlegement) of others' work. JohnZ from martinrjensen@home.com Wed Oct 31 00:06:14 2001 f9V66Da14256 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:06:13 - femail35.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:06:15 -0800 Subject: RE: Now I understand the taper issue Now that "almost " sounds like sarcasm... Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Now I understand the taper issue I get it now. Nobody made a good taper until Garrison, Payne, Powell,Gillum, Dickerson et al circa 1930-1950. 1880 to 1930 was a wasteland.Glad we found this out. And none of the above builders stole any tapers from previous builders. Nice to have this straightened out.Chris Message that "almost " sounds like sarcasm... Jensen -----Original Message----- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = On Behalf Of Chris RaineSent: Tuesday, October 30,= understand = issue = until Garrison, Payne, Powell, Gillum, Dickerson et al circa = this straightened out.Chris from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 00:35:00 2001 f9V6Yxa15732 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:35:00 - ([209.178.135.98] helo=g2t8c9) id 15yoxu-0007Fw-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:35:06 -0800 Subject: Rodmakers Code of Ethics Theoretically speaking, If there was "Rodmakers Code of Ethics" that makers would adherevoluntarily to. What should some of the issues that would best describethe ethical behavior of the cane rodmaker? Just wondering. My first suggestion would be 1. I will not lift a taper from a rod withoutpermission from the MAKER. Adam Vigil from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Oct 31 01:04:25 2001 f9V74Oa17341 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:04:24 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:04:30 -0500 Subject: Forms Can anyone tell me how to make a set of formsthat can only be set to dimensions that have not been used yet?I know these forms would be extremely limited, but I dare notuse any dimensions that are in use.They probably would not have to be adjustable because I probablywould only be able to make one crapy rod on them.oh yeah is anyone looking for about $ 500 in measuring equipment.no use for that anymore.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Can anyone tell me how to make a set of formsthat can only be set to dimensions that have not been used =yet? notuse any dimensions that are in use.They probably would not have to be adjustable because I =probably oh yeah is anyone looking for about $ 500 in measuring =equipment.no use for that anymore.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from ajthramer@hotmail.com Wed Oct 31 02:22:39 2001 f9V8Mca18987 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:22:39 - Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:22:41 -0800 Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:22:41 GMT Subject: Guild FILETIME=[359BE9E0:01C161E5] We talked about the guild idea in the past and I think... we decided that we are all too cantankerous and independent to take direction from anybody - even ourselves! [:)] A.J. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from ajthramer@hotmail.com Wed Oct 31 02:35:12 2001 f9V8ZBa19361 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:35:11 - Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:35:14 -0800 Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:35:14 GMT Subject: RE: copying your tapers FILETIME=[F652ABF0:01C161E6] About the 70 hrs a week - yep that is what it takes to run ahead of the wolves. I start my day at 9AM ,30min lunch at from 12 to 3 - it depends on when something needs to dry or cure - stop at 5 for an hour or two - it depends on how much homework my children need help with and back to theshop till somewhere between 12AM and 3 AM. On the weekend I will cut back(especially if there are good college football games on) to 8 or 10 hrs. Don't even think about it unless you LOVE building rods even when you have something else to do. A decent living? Only if it is measured in satisfaction and peace with yourself. NOT if you mean monetarill. The idea that you are putting the 1200 in your pocket is patently ridiculous. I can't even put into words how silly it is that as a rodbuilder we are obviously 'doing pretty good'A.J. Oh yeah - Iv'e been doing this schedule for 18 months and I'm STILL behind! From: "Downandacross Rod Company" CC: "Rodmakers" Subject: RE: copying your tapersDate: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:57:25 -0500 Hi John:I missed that post that you replied to. I agree that is theft, and we take notputting my very part-time self into that category, but a guy like Ron Kussespends 70+ hours in his shop a week. Wow!). With so fews guys selling quads,it isn't hard to track those types down. In some ways, the quad builders arethe most tight lipped, but a gentlemen would not even dare ask for thosesecrets and tapers. It's all about tact ( I was not sure how to spell"couth?")Best regards,Bobps., I am not familiar with Kustin. Who is he? -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 11:30 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: copying your tapers I think I'd like to share an incident that occured almost 18 months ago. Isent a quad to a friend of mine who wanted to cast it. While he had it, another rodmaker who is more or a less a beginner measured the dimensions withoutmy permission. Within two months, that maker was selling that rod on the internet. I think that this incident has made me much less forthcoming with information. Keep in mind that the taper took 14 attempts and 3 years ofdevelopment ( trial and error) to get it just right. I think that this was just pure theft. There is no excuse for it. I remember well when I started in rodmaking almost twenty years ago thatnone ofthe professional rod makers ( Kusse, Carpenter, Kustin) would give abeginner thetime of day - let alone what glue to use or how to adjust a binder. Rodmakinglore was held very tight to the vest. Perhaps these makers had the sameexperiencethat I did. I think, at the very least, a maker using a taper from another should givethedesigner credit for his work. I would be a good thing if we could continue to keep the kind of freeexchange ofinformation that Wayne C. established some years ago. I not sure that we candothis if there is a continual "lifting" (without aknowlegement) of others'work. JohnZ _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from timklein@qwest.net Wed Oct 31 03:04:35 2001 f9V94Ya19950 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 03:04:34 -0600 (63.229.224.85) rodmakers@mail.wustL.edu Subject: Re: Sharing tapers Douglas Losey wrote: Sharing this taper has certainly stirred up more controversy thanI could have imagined. You can say that again! these rods have been ordered because "they are a Mike Clarkrod", I could make a rod with this taper but it wouldn't be aMike Clark rod. This is my general feeling too. If the taper is of the utmost importance, then a rodmaker should take thetime to copyright or patent it. What exactly is an "original" taper anyway? In my mind "original" wouldrequire design from scratch - maybe starting with a butt and tipmeasurement, then mapping or graphing out intermediate measurements,testing, and reworking until you get the rod action you want. I certainlywouldn't consider something that was modified from a known taper,"original", no matter how much it varied from the taper on which it wasbased. If I'm buying a Mike Clark rod, do I really care if it's someone else'staper? Only if I'm paying Mike for a rod that's made with a taper that heclaims is his own design. As a matter of fact, I've done exactly that. Ibought a rod from Mike that he calls the "St. Vrain Special". This is a rodthat Mike put together using a Jon Bradford blank (if I'm not mistaken, Ithink Mike makes these rods with other makers blanks too. I seem to recallhearing that one of the members on this list sold some blanks to Mike forthese rods a while back). It's a beautiful rod that I'm thrilled to have.The hardware, finish, etc. are all typical of Mike's rods, but Mike was veryclear about the fact that he didn't make the blank. As long as I know that,then I'm fine with it. I bought the St. Vrain Special around the same time I was putting my nameonMike's multi-year waiting list for a rod that IS of his own design. Now, Itrust Mike when he states that he has designed his rod tapers through muchtrial and error. If I measure it out later and find that it is very close tosomeone else's rod from 50 years ago, then I'm still okay with the wholething as long as I trust Mike's word that he came up with this taper. In myopinion, it was the mind (and sweat) of Mike Clark who came up with it, soit's still a "Mike Clark" taper. While I don't doubt that nearly all of the rodmakers I know are extremelyhonest and forthright about the origin of their tapers, I certainly don'tcompare them to known tapers to find out if they are truly "original".There's a certain amount of trust that must take place. Obvisouly, there'splenty of room for fraud, which is why I only buy rods from makers that Ifeel that I can trust. I offer my apology to the group if I have offended I doubt you've offended anyone. You generated a very interesting questionthough. I will certainly offer my apology to Mike when I see him next. If you wouldn't mind, let us know how he responds. I'm sure that many of uson the list would be interested in his feelings on the matter. I went backon a promise to post the taper for my St. Vrain Special to the list lastyear, so I certainly know that I'd be interested in his thoughts. I had thetaper all typed out and ready to send when this exact question popped intomy head. I originally decided to ask Mike if it was OK to post the taper,then realized that I should probably direct the question to Mr. Bradfordinstead since the blank was his. I didn't have an address for Mr. Bradfordat the time, and though I intended to track him down and write him forpermission, I never got around to it. (The message is still in my "Draft" folder! Does anybody have Mr. Bradford'saddress?) ---Tim from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 31 03:17:49 2001 f9V9Hma20324 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 03:17:48 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Forms Tony Miller wrote: Can anyone tell me how to make a set of formsthat can only be set to dimensions that have not been used yet?I know these forms would be extremely limited, but I dare notuse any dimensions that are in use.They probably would not have to be adjustable because I probablywould only be able to make one crapy rod on them. No need to buy anything!!! Every set of forms in existance can be set =to dimensions not used yet, if you think in terms of the dimensions in = If you think of it in strings, such as .072 followed by .081 followed by =.090 followed by .103 followed by .......... see my point? A particular =dimension is no more unique than a particular note in a musical =composition, however, a sonata is definitely unique and distinguishable =as a combination and progression of those very limited individual notes. =If you say that a dimension cannot be unique, I can agree, but if you =say that a set of dimensions cannot be unique, then I must vehemently =disagree. That is like saying... "Johan Sebastian Bach was just using 7 =notes to compose his music... Just because he put them in a particular =order doesn't make his work that of a master... I mean hell, there are =just 7 notes on a scale... well, sure, 7 flats, so that's 14, then I =guess if you use them in combinations then a few thousand... BUT STILL, =just 7 basic notes, so anyone could do that. I don't think there was =anything unique about his music, so I'm just gonna copy it and sell a =few million records..." Is that not like exactly like saying that a =particular makers tapers are only made up of dimentions between 70 and =400 thousandths of an inch (geez, isn't that roughly 6 times the number =of whole notes on that musical scale that the master composers used), =and the progression is just chance, that you can take that without =permission, with the assistance of a micrometer or a caliper and say "I =feel good about using this taper... I measured it, so now it's mine..." = Many can play music, few can compose it... who then does the true =work, the composer or the musician? Sure, Joe Fiddler can play a Violin =Concerto written by Strauss, but is Joe the one that MADE the magic, or =is he merely the one who reproduced the magic that it took Strauss years =to compose? Basically, theft is theft.... if you steal a progression of =notes from another composer (or lift another living makers tapers =without his permission), you have committed a larceny of sorts, and if =you choose to profit from another composers (makers) work without his =permission, then you have carried that all the way out to the more =proper title of "thief"... however, ask that composers permission and =you are a musician, most gracefully emulating that in which he placed =HIS sweat and blood. Just my opinion, and probably deviating greatly from the "grace" that =Harry said I possessed. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm Subject: Forms Can anyone tell me how to make a set of formsthat can only be set to dimensions that have not been used yet?I know these forms would be extremely limited, but I dare notuse any dimensions that are in use.They probably would not have to be adjustable because I probablywould only be able to make one crapy rod on them.oh yeah is anyone looking for about $ 500 in measuring equipment.no use for that anymore.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Tony Miller wrote: yet? not probably = existance can be set to dimensions not used yet, if you think in terms = followed by .081 followed by .090 followed by .103 followed by = that's 14, then I guess if you use them in combinations then a few = BUT STILL, just 7 basic notes, so anyone could do = think there was anything unique about his music, so I'm just gonna copy = are only made up of dimentions between 70 and 400 thousandths of an inch= isn't that roughly 6 times the number of whole notes on that musical = the master composers used), and the progression is just chance, that you = take that without permission, with the assistance of a micrometer or a = and say "I feel good about using this taper... I measured = = Strauss, but is Joe the one that MADE the magic, or is he merely the one = theft is theft.... if you steal a progression of notes from another = lift another living makers tapers without his permission), you have = larceny of sorts, and if you choose to profit from = composers (makers) work without his permission, then you have carried = composers permission and you are a musician, most = greatly from the "grace" that Harry said possessed. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodsht=tp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Wednesday, October 31, = AMSubject: Forms Can anyone tell me how to make a set of formsthat can only be set to dimensions that have not been used =yet? notuse any dimensions that are in use.They probably would not have to be adjustable because I =probably oh yeah is anyone looking for about $ 500 in measuring =equipment.no use for that anymore.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from "Marty D. aka \"none" Wed Oct 31 04:43:58 2001 f9VAhwa21363 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 04:43:58 - v4.1.40/v4167. . Clean. Processed in 0.616231 secs); 31 Oct 200110:36:50 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: schools and world knowledge warning! rant! It's very difficult (but not impossible)to instill morality in your children whenthe teachers , school(public school) and media for that matter have such aliberal (anti- Christain)agenda. Marty Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/29/01 11:20:53 AM Central Standard Time,pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us writes: involved, raise your children - Educate them. >> Yey yes yes! THAT was MY point. The problem is not ENTIRELY theschools.They get beat up over it. But PARENTS need to be responsible for theirkids!Schools were forced to take up responsibility for kids when parentsabandoned the job! If you want to have your kids to be "model citizens"THEN BE ONE YOURSELF! THAT is easy!mark from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 31 06:04:00 2001 f9VC3wa22416 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:03:58 - Subject: RE: copying your tapers OK, we start off with a u beaut fast motor. The same used by the winner of formula 1. It's the 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine.When it's going great because it's properly "Tuned To Win" as the title goes it's the engine to get if you want to go fast. Every man and his dog wants this engine because it really goes but it's a bit dicky to keep tuned, still good if it's not quite right but there is something the winning team is doing that you can't quite work out, but you can get it close so it's still pretty good. It's still the 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine but not quite as good as the winner of the formula 1. You know that because the name is right there on the manifold.The designer has done his job well but the team is not quite up to it. A little further down the water trough of racing circles is a small operation, they cut tread in cast off tyers with razor blades, always on the scrounge for spare nuts and bolts, put banana skins in the dif to keep it going, that sort of thing but guess what engine they have? Yep, it's the 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine, says so right there on the manifold. These guys run the motor with the same plugs they did last race, only change the oil every third race and forgot when they last replaced the fan belt. I wonder who wins most often?Now, my point is. Is it the designer of the 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine or the racing team when the teamdoesn't win presuming the driver doesn't wind up against the wall or blows a gearbox or something? Is it the designer or maker who has made a lousy job of a good taper?It's the maker and if a person looking at a badly executed rod thinks it's a pretty poor excuse for a rod he'll think it's the maker, not the designer. I mean who'd be stupid enough to waste time making a rod based on a rotten taper? You really can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear no matter what.Not naming the taper designer is sort of implying the taper is your own. Just because you think you are not worthy of penning the designer's name on the rod or haven't completely followed the exact same processes doesn't matter because a lot of classic tapers could be made in a very wide variation of ways and still be excellent, in fact IMHO the thing that has made certain tapers classics is the wide latitude the taper can vary by and still be recognizable as the taper in question. If the engine is a 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine it'll say so on the manifold, it should be so on rods too. Tony At 09:03 PM 10/30/01 -0800, Martin Jensen wrote: Personally, If I copy a taper from another designer I acknowledge it inthe name. I built a taper of the Payne 102 rod a while back. My taperwas so far off that all I said when someone ask what taper it was, wasthat it was "inspired" by Payne. The following one I call a Payne 102copy, as it is fairly close to the measurements that I have for thisrod. Personally, if I hold a taper to within .005 or a designer, I willacknowledge that it is that persons taper. I doubt that you could tellthe difference between tapers if you were within .005. Maybe if everymeasurement was .005 off you could tell... Usually it is the occasionalmeasurement that is off. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 8:30 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: copying your tapers I think I'd like to share an incident that occured almost 18 monthsago. I sent a quad to a friend of mine who wanted to cast it. While he had it, another rodmaker who is more or a less a beginner measuredthe dimensions without my permission. Within two months, that makerwas selling that rod on the internet. I think that this incident hasmade me much less forthcoming with information. Keep in mind that the taper took 14 attempts and 3 years of development ( trial and error)to get it just right. I think that this was just pure theft. There isno excuse for it. I remember well when I started in rodmaking almost twenty years ago thatnone of the professional rod makers ( Kusse, Carpenter, Kustin) wouldgive a beginner the time of day - let alone what glue to use or how toadjust a binder. Rod making lore was held very tight to the vest.Perhaps these makers had the same experience that I did. I think, at the very least, a maker using a taper from another shouldgive the designer credit for his work. I would be a good thing if we could continue to keep the kind of freeexchange of information that Wayne C. established some years ago. I notsure that we can do this if there is a continual "lifting" (withoutaknowlegement) of others' work. JohnZ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from anglport@con2.com Wed Oct 31 06:16:18 2001 f9VCGIa22788 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:16:18 - Subject: Re: HTML All,I'm getting an awful lot of messages lately on green "stationery". I'llbet that's an html device. It really doesn't add more than a bell or awhistle to the message, but it may be what some of the fellows' modems are"choking" on . If you're using that option, you may not even realize whatit's doing.Just a thought,Art----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: HTML Martin, No arguments here. Some of those messages, come to think of it, mayhave been from other lists. And some were probably personal messagesaddressed only to me and included attachments (SRG pictures). Still, itdoes slow my computer down, and far too often completely locks it up,whenmessages are sent in html. Best,Harry Martin Jensen wrote: Not to start an argument, but I see only 2 messages up to or over 50 KBin size -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from Lazybee45@aol.com Wed Oct 31 06:23:34 2001 f9VCNXa23097 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:23:33 - Subject: Re: Rodmakers Code of Ethics In a message dated 10/31/01 12:40:26 AM Central Standard Time, atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: OK I have a better "Code of ethics" for you. Smipler and a bit more encompasing, but I think it covers it.To make a long story short. there was an argument many years ago over what "Judiasm" really was. The story is long, involved and entertaining. I laughed at it. But the upshot of it was this. the wise man of the bunch said. "The essense of being a jew is to treat every other person as you would wish to be treated, everything else is simply commentary!"I am not a Jew, I am a Christian, but the essense of the thing is the same. If you treat the other rodmaker (or anyone else!) as you would want others to treat you, the problem will not exist.Why go through a long involved "code" when you can simply treat each other as valuable people and be courtious. Nothing more is needed. IMHO!markP.S. no snyde remarks about me and my big mouth and all that either, IKNOW I am something of a wise ass, you really don't need to tell me about it! ;-Dm He that will not reason is a bigot, He that cannot reasonis a fool, He that dares not reason is a slave. --William Drummond from ttalsma@macatawa.org Wed Oct 31 07:06:34 2001 f9VD6Ya24066 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:06:34 - id ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:00:26 -0500 id V8NVMGHA; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:00:23 -0500 Rodmakers Subject: Re: copying your tapers Boy, this one brought business right to mind. The Stanley/Record issueis true in any business. I work for a high-end furniture/clockmanufacturer and we struggle to come up with fresh designs for clocksthat will sell in a very competitive marketplace. We had a clock thatwas designed to celebrate the millenium (the model happens to be called"The Millenium Edition"). We sold a ton (well, a couple hundred) in thefirst year and a half after the design was introduced. Well, biggestcompetitor (well the biggest clock company) is located about 11 miles tothe east of us (actually in the same town as our clock plant) and theycame out with a clock that looks exactly like ours last April. Only acouple of the moldings were changed from our design. Needless to say,we haven't been selling nearly as many of our clocks since then, sincethe competitor is selling them at a lower price. Kind of reminds me ofwhat AJ was saying about his 4'4" taper rods. Reverse engineering? Would that ever happen in business? You can betyour life. If we take someone else's product and reverse engineer itand then build it ourselves, who do we give the design credit to? Theother company? I think not, that would be shooting ourselves in thefoot. With all that said, do I think people should do this with rods? No, butsome are going to do it for profit anyway. Even though most (or maybe amajority) of the rodmakers out here are honest and respectable, you aregoing to run into characters who aren't, just as in any other area ofyour life. Is it going to upset you if it happens to your product? Probably, but what are you going to do to stop them? Maybe go the routethat Wayne suggested with the attorney, but are you going to suck yourbank account dry trying to defend a patent. I think that most wouldn'tbe in a position to do that. Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth. "Douglas P. Easton" wrote: All, Bamboo flyrods are like planes. Many makes (Stanley/Record) are verysimilar and are probably that way because one company emulates another.Inorder that one can properly identify the maker of such a product the"trademark" was invented. These marks are clearly distinctive and are protected taper by convergence on a good design. It has always been that way. Noone,however can use someone else's registered trade mark. Ethical issues aside, a Pain rod is not a PAYNE rod. People expect aconsistent level of quality in materials and workmanship from a givenmakerand the trade mark on the product assures this. The bottom line, I think isthat using another rod maker's name (PAYNE 102 taper) to sell a productcomes very close to trademark infringement- particularly when the makerorhis successors is still active. Unfortunately the cost of bringing a damagesuit against someone who engages in this practice is prohibitive. I think that you can describe a rod in terms of its action, as "much like aPAYNE 102" and be both safe and ethical. This is a functional claim notclaim to have duplicated someone else's taper. -Doug -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from rmoon@ida.net Wed Oct 31 07:26:27 2001 Received: from ida.net Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:24:33 -0700 U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept- List Serve , flyfish@defnet.com Subject: Re:Forms References: Content- Type: text/html; rmoon@ida.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Bob At last a breath of sanity!!! I wish I couldhave said it as well. Ralph Bob Nunley wrote:href="file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND- on them. No need tobuy anything!!! Every set of forms in existance can be set to dimensions notused yet, if you think in terms of the dimensions in strings rather than thinkof then as single numbers like .050 = .050. If you think of it in strings, suchas .072 followed by .081 followed by .090 followed by .103 followed by.......... see my point? A particular dimension is no more unique than aparticular note in a musical composition, however, a sonata is definitelyunique and distinguishable as a combination and progression of those verylimited individual notes. If you say that a dimension cannot be unique, I canagree, but if you say that a set of dimensions cannot be unique, then I mustvehemently disagree. That is like saying... "Johan SebastianBach was just using 7 notes to compose his music... Just because he putthem in a particular order doesn't make his work that of a master... I meanhell, there are just 7 notes on a scale... well, sure, 7 flats, so that's 14, thenI guess if you use them in combinations then a few thousand... BUT STILL,just 7 basic notes, so anyone could do that. I don't think there was anythingunique about his music, so I'm just gonna copy it and sell a few millionrecords..." Is that not like exactly likesaying that a particular makers tapers are only made up of dimentionsbetween 70 and 400 thousandths of an inch (geez, isn't that roughly 6 timesthe number of whole notes on that musical scale that the master composersused), and the progression is just chance, that you can take that withoutpermission, with the assistance of a micrometer or a caliper and say"I feel good about using this taper... I measured it, so now it'smine..." Many canplay music, few can compose it... who then does the true work, the composeror the musician? Sure, Joe Fiddler can play a Violin Concerto written byStrauss, but is Joe the one that MADE the magic, or is he merely the one whoreproduced the magic that it took Strauss years to compose? Basically,theft is theft.... if you steal a progression of notes from another composer(or lift another living makers tapers without his permission), you havecommitted a larceny of sorts, and if you choose to profit from another composers (makers) work without his permission, then youhave carried that all the way out to the more proper title of "thief"...however, ask that composers permission and you are a musician, mostgracefully emulating that in which he placed HIS sweat andblood. Just my opinion, andprobably deviating greatly from the "grace"that Harry said I possessed. Later, Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker Custom Split Cane Flyrods http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm----- Original Message ----- From:Tony rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:05 AM Subject: Forms Can anyone tell me how to make a set of forms thatcan only be set to dimensions that have not been used yet? Iknow these forms would be extremely limited, but I dare not useany dimensions that are in use. They probably would not have tobe adjustable because I probably would only be able to make onecrapy rod on them. oh yeah is anyone looking for about $ 500 inmeasuring equipment. no use for that anymore. TonyMiller www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium >Fromflytyr@southshore.com Wed Oct 31 07:30:37 2001 Received: from f9VDUba24891 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:30:44 -0600 2001 07:32:25 -0600 From: Tony Spezio X-Mailer: "'Rodmakers'" Subject: Re: HTML Content-Type: flytyr@southshore.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I alsofind it real hard to read, but then, I am just a old far- that getting to where Ican't see as good as I used to. Tony Flytyr@southshore.com Art Port wrote: All,I'm getting an awful lot of messages lately on green "stationery". I'llbet that's an html device. It really doesn't add more than a bell or awhistle to the message, but it may be what some of the fellows' modems are"choking" on . If you're using that option, you may not even realize whatit's doing.Just a thought,Art----- Original Message -----From: "Harry Boyd" Cc: "'Rodmakers'" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 11:52 PMSubject: Re: HTML Martin, No arguments here. Some of those messages, come to think of it, mayhave been from other lists. And some were probably personal messagesaddressed only to me and included attachments (SRG pictures). Still, itdoes slow my computer down, and far too often completely locks it up,whenmessages are sent in html. Best,Harry Martin Jensen wrote: Not to start an argument, but I see only 2 messages up to or over 50KBin size -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 31 07:56:40 2001 f9VDuda25801 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:56:39 - Subject: Re: schools and world knowledge warning! rant! I can remember when I was at school we were taught religious instructionwhich cameas standard to all schools and it was difficult to modify. The Moralityinstructionthe children receive now often reflects the teachers own personal slant onmorality.Children are very easy to manipulate and I think we must be careful on thetype ofeducation we give them.I cannot see the difference between a young boy being propositioned by anold pervertin the park (we all have) and being taught the benefits of being gay at school.Terry Marty D. aka "none wrote: It's very difficult (but not impossible)to instill morality in your childrenwhenthe teachers , school(public school) and media for that matter have such aliberal (anti- Christain)agenda. Marty Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/29/01 11:20:53 AM Central Standard Time,pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us writes: involved, raise your children - Educate them. >> Yey yes yes! THAT was MY point. The problem is not ENTIRELY theschools.They get beat up over it. But PARENTS need to be responsible for theirkids!Schools were forced to take up responsibility for kids when parentsabandoned the job! If you want to have your kids to be "model citizens"THEN BE ONE YOURSELF! THAT is easy!mark from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 31 08:09:37 2001 f9VE9aa26373 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:09:36 - (authenticated) Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:09:26 -0800 Subject: Re: Forms --------------C8D29811728562A354D851DE Bobbo, Why bother with Bach? Yes, he used all sevennotes. But Elvis only used two, and made moremoney than Bach ever thought about. Harry Bob Nunley wrote: That is like saying... "Johan Sebastian Bach wasjust using 7 notes to compose his music... -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------C8D29811728562A354D851DE Bobbo, thought about. Bob Nunley wrote:That is like saying... "JohanSebastian Bach was just using 7 notes to compose hismusic... -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------C8D29811728562A354D851DE-- from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Oct 31 08:14:09 2001 f9VEE8a26780 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:14:08 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:14:14 -0500 Subject: Re:Forms BobSince I play the guitar I see where your going.But is it not true that many songs do have the same notes in the same =order? only to be changed by one single note at the end of a measure or =chorus to make the song different?also in a musical composition you are limited by only time.Music can also be affected by things like timing, Dynamics,and a whole =other list of things.i.e. if you play the same song on a guitar , most certainly it will not =sound exactly like when I play it.But if you put a strip of bamboo in a set forms and plane it and I do =the same in the same set of forms what are the odds it will come out the =same. Well I almost guarantee we will come up with two strips that will =match.very hard to compare musical composition with planning a strips.It is pretty hard to crescendo a bamboo strip. Unless you compare a =taper to gradually louder.:))Music is a true art ,and while making a rod is true art ,planning a =strip is better compared to craftsmanship. Tony Miller www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Bob order? only to be changed by one single note at the end of a measure or = to make the song different?also in a musical composition you are limited by only time.Music can also be affected by things like timing, Dynamics,and = whole other list of things. But if you put a strip of bamboo in a set forms and plane it and I = same in the same set of forms what are the odds it will come out the = I almost guarantee we will come up with two strips that will =match.very hard to compare musical composition with planning a =strips.It is pretty hard to crescendo a bamboo strip. Unless you compare a = to gradually louder.:))Music is a true art ,and while making a rod is true art ,planning a = is better compared to craftsmanship.Best regards Tony Miller www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from ttalsma@macatawa.org Wed Oct 31 08:18:36 2001 f9VEIZa27445 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:18:35 - id ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:12:34 -0500 id V8NVMGJ3; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:12:30 -0500 Subject: Re: schools and world knowledge warning! rant! Terry, It's not only being done at the younger ages but I think even more in the colleges and universities. My wife went back to school to get herteacher's certificate in the past couple of years and I am astonished bysome of the views that the instructors that she had were airing. Thingslike, "Oh, just because that character had 10 abortions, doesn't meanshe is immoral, it's just that she has her own morals." HUH!!! Itabout drove me nuts hearing about it, I can only surmise what I wouldhave done if I had actually been in the class. "T. Ackland" wrote: I can remember when I was at school we were taught religious instructionwhich cameas standard to all schools and it was difficult to modify. The Moralityinstructionthe children receive now often reflects the teachers own personal slant onmorality.Children are very easy to manipulate and I think we must be careful on thetype ofeducation we give them.I cannot see the difference between a young boy being propositioned by anold pervertin the park (we all have) and being taught the benefits of being gay atschool.Terry Marty D. aka "none wrote: It's very difficult (but not impossible)to instill morality in your childrenwhenthe teachers , school(public school) and media for that matter have suchaliberal (anti- Christain)agenda. Marty Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/29/01 11:20:53 AM Central Standard Time,pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us writes: involved, raise your children - Educate them. >> Yey yes yes! THAT was MY point. The problem is not ENTIRELY theschools.They get beat up over it. But PARENTS need to be responsible fortheir kids!Schools were forced to take up responsibility for kids when parentsabandoned the job! If you want to have your kids to be "model citizens"THEN BE ONE YOURSELF! THAT is easy!mark -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 31 08:31:06 2001 Received: from f9VEU9w13668; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:30:09 -0800 Message-ID:Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:28:45 -0600 From: Harry Boyd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] ajthramer@hotmail.com CC: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Guild owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN -------------- http://www.rodguild.com/ Though it is mostly for graphite rods, and many ofits members do rods other than fly, I still think it's worth the $25membership. Some good people are working on requirements for"Certification" for bamboo rod makers. Though it isn't the solution to all ourneeds, it is worth thinking about. I feel it is a step in the right direction, andworth taking a few minutes to check out. Harry Allen Thramer wrote: We talked about the guild idea in the past and I think... we decided that weare all too cantankerous and independent to take direction from anybody -even ourselves! [:)] A.J. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------6528F5D0FC91FF4ACCB16633 All, http://www.rodguild.com/Though it is mostly for graphite rods, and many of its members do rods good people are working on requirements for "Certification" for bamboo and worth taking a few minutes to check out. Allen Thramer wrote:We talked about the guild idea in the past and Ithink... we decided that weare all too cantankerous and independent to take direction fromanybody-even ourselves! [:)] A.J._________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------6528F5D0FC91FF4ACCB16633-- from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 31 08:39:36 2001 f9VEdZa28997 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:39:35 - ;Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:39:38 +0000 Subject: Re: In search of taper for rod Wayne's Sir D. from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 31 08:45:52 2001 f9VEjpa29539 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:45:51 - ;Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:45:54 +0000 Subject: Re: copying your tapers Harry and All, I like the way Alan Medved handles this. His rods are simply signed,Alan Medved. There was a piece of white tape on the reel seat that gavethe inspiration taper. I find this approach to be the best of bothworlds and I believe I will start using it. Of course I won't sign mineAlan Medved. Harry are you ready to part with those 32's for some parrot? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Harry Boyd wrote: Doug, Reed, and others, You've really made me think about this. I guess I'm naive, but I honestlynever thought about using the "Payne 101 taper" as a marketing gimmick. Istarted signing my rods that way........... from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Wed Oct 31 08:55:51 2001 [66.133.130.237] (may be forged)) f9VEtoa00455 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:55:51 - sender ) Subject: Re: Guild But it would be a blast to watch the meetings!!! tom----- Original Message ----- Subject: Guild We talked about the guild idea in the past and I think... we decided that we are all too cantankerous and independent to take direction from anybody -even ourselves! [:)] A.J. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Wed Oct 31 09:02:55 2001 [66.133.130.238] (may be forged)) f9VF2ta01026 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:02:55 - sender ) Subject: Re:Forms Tony, I'm sorry, but I do not see making rods as "true art". I see true art =as something that can be neither right nor wrong. A rod can be made =wrong, I can show you a few if you don't believe me. ; ) Craftmanship =is more the term. Sure you can pretty up a rod with fancy wraps and =grips, etc, but it is still not art. Art generally does not have a =function except to be appreciated and enjoyed. Our rods have a function =to send a fly across a stream and into the tree on the other side. Tom Subject: Re:Forms BobSince I play the guitar I see where your going.But is it not true that many songs do have the same notes in the same =order? only to be changed by one single note at the end of a measure or =chorus to make the song different?also in a musical composition you are limited by only time.Music can also be affected by things like timing, Dynamics,and a =whole other list of things.i.e. if you play the same song on a guitar , most certainly it will =not sound exactly like when I play it.But if you put a strip of bamboo in a set forms and plane it and I do =the same in the same set of forms what are the odds it will come out the =same. Well I almost guarantee we will come up with two strips that will =match.very hard to compare musical composition with planning a strips.It is pretty hard to crescendo a bamboo strip. Unless you compare a =taper to gradually louder.:))Music is a true art ,and while making a rod is true art ,planning a =strip is better compared to craftsmanship. Tony Miller www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no- repeat;COLOR: =#000000; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT; FONT-SIZE: 12pt} Tony, I'm sorry, but I do not see making rods as "true = have a function to send a fly across a stream and into the tree on the = side. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Wednesday, October 31, = AMSubject: Re:Forms Bob same order? only to be changed by one single note at the end of a = chorus to make the song different?also in a musical composition you are limited by only time.Music can also be affected by things like timing, Dynamics,and = whole other list of things. But if you put a strip of bamboo in a set forms and plane it and = same in the same set of forms what are the odds it will come out the = Well I almost guarantee we will come up with two strips that will =match.very hard to compare musical composition with planning a =strips.It is pretty hard to crescendo a bamboo strip. Unless you compare = to gradually louder.:))Music is a true art ,and while making a rod is true art ,planning = is better compared to craftsmanship.Best regards Tony Miller www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from ECKTOR_66@YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 31 09:06:34 2001 f9VF6Xa01441 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:06:33 - Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:06:41 PST Subject: Re: schools, etc... take it off the list! Please take this dicussion off the list. The threadhas nothing to do with the craft of rodmaking. Further, I find it inappropriate that you are usingthe list as a soapbox. I am signed up to learn moreabout a craft, not wade through your callow commentaryon morality. Regards, Eric --- Original SNIPPED __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 09:11:39 2001 f9VFBca02089 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:11:38 -0600 31 Oct 2001 07:11:41 PST Subject: Re: Guild harry, and all, i just flat out disagree. we havecelebrated handshake deals and the gentlemanlyness ofour associations and taken pride in "a man's word is his bond". a man's skill as a builder is in his workand is apparant to all. if a guy wants to conduct hislife and associacions in a just and moral way he will.what i don't need or want is one more do-gooder grouplooking over my shoulder telling me if i'm good enough, if i'm right enough, whether i'm the rodmaker sortof person or the kind that anyone else wants around. idon't think a unioun, a club, another church group orneighborhood association will make me or us any betterpersons or rodmakers. as it is we meet together onequal footing. i will not stand before any panel withmy hat in my hand for proof of the right to live mylife from childhood to here as i've chosen. timothy --- Harry Boyd wrote: All, I joined the Custom Rodbuilders Guild. http://www.rodguild.com/ Though itis mostly for graphite rods, and many of its membersdo rods other than fly, Istill think it's worth the $25 membership. Somegood people are working onrequirements for "Certification" for bamboo rodmakers. Though it isn't thesolution to all our needs, it is worth thinkingabout. I feel it is a step inthe right direction, and worth taking a few minutesto check out. Harry Allen Thramer wrote: We talked about the guild idea in the past and I think... we decided that we are all too cantankerous and independent to take direction from anybody - even ourselves! [:)] A.J. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Oct 31 09:19:06 2001 f9VFJ5a02638 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:19:05 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:19:11 -0500 Subject: Re: forms well guys we could debate this till the cows come home.But here is how it stands at least for me.I will continue to make rods.I will continue to use whatever taper I choose.If it happens to be close to your taper Oh well!if you want to start a guild, don't include me in a any such guildI certainly am not going to form a society that dictates rules through =self imposed morals.However I will follow legal and ethical practice.I bought the tools , so I'll use them as I like.I paid my dues,but I will not cowtow to people who just want to save =their business from the shark pool buy making up rules to impose upon =the rest of us to limit are sales. Lead by example .:))don't sell me everything in your box to make rods then limit me by =saying don't use them. ain't gonna fly here:))Sorry if this ticks anyone off. Talkin about my gggggggggggeneration.Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} well guys we could debate this till the cows come home.But here is how it stands at least for me.I will continue to make rods.I will continue to use whatever taper I choose.If it happens to be close to your taper Oh well!if you want to start a guild, don't include me in a any such =guildI certainly am not going to form a society that dictates rules = imposed morals.However I will follow legal and ethical practice. I paid my dues,but I will not cowtow to people who just want to = business from the shark pool buy making up rules to impose upon the rest = to limit are sales. Lead by example .:))don't sell me everything in your box to make rods then limit me by = don't use them. ain't gonna fly here:))Sorry if this ticks anyone off. Talkin about my =gggggggggggeneration.Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from SBDunn@aol.com Wed Oct 31 09:25:31 2001 f9VFPUa03305 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:25:30 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:25:24 - Subject: Re: schools, etc... take it off the list! Well said Eric. I know lots of us were thinking it. regards, Steve. from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Oct 31 09:27:44 2001 f9VFRia03633 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:27:44 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:27:50 -0500 Subject: Re: forms You guys aren't gonna send Guido to bust my knee caps now are you?Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} You guys aren't gonna send Guido to bust my knee caps now are =you?Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from lblan@provide.net Wed Oct 31 09:35:49 2001 f9VFZna05130 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:35:49 - with HTTP id 3607553 for ; Wed, 31 Oct2001 10:35:57 -0500 Subject: Re: schools, etc... take it off the list! Perhaps, but I rather suspect that most of us would allowthe list's owner to decide what is or is not appropriate forposting to the list. Larry Blan On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:25:24 ESTSBDunn@aol.com wrote: Well said Eric. I know lots of us were thinking it. regards, Steve. from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed Oct 31 09:40:04 2001 f9VFe2a06216 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:40:03 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: You can't get there from here I'm finding the brouhaha about copying tapers quite enlightening... at least I know who *not* to ask to hold my wallet during the next brawl at Grayling:). There should be no concern about copying tapers from the production rodmakers, e.g., Payne, Leonard, Thomas, because the originals were produced on bevelers or mills. The template used on a beveler permits tremendous flexibility in slopes, not so the simple spline curves you can get on 5" centers on steel forms. If you were to take the measurements every inch on an original Payne, then compare it to a rod created by handplaning, you would probably find that they only agreed every 5":) The tips of a Halstead, for example, may only show a .014" drop every 5", but most of that drop occurs over a 2" span. You just can't get there from here.-- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ >Fromfbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 31 09:44:11 2001 Received: from q4.quik.com f9VFhpH164646; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:43:52 -0800 Message-ID:Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:40:55 -0600 From: Harry Boyd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com CC: "rod 'akers" Subject: Re: Guild References:Content-Type: fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENtimothy troester wrote: harry, and all, i just flat out disagree. we havecelebrated handshake deals and the gentlemanlyness ofour associations and taken pride in "a man's word ishis bond". Timothy, Glad we have started a healthy discussion. You say that we have"celebrated handshake deals and the gentlemanlyness (sic) of ourassociations and taken pride in "a man's word is his bond." Well, inmost cases I agree. But let me quote the infamous Dr. Phil of Oprahfame. "How's that workin' for ya?" I agree it should. And in mostcases it does. But there are still guys who won't abide by ourchosen ethic. Most on this list do, thank goodness. Still, justyesterday we heard about stealing tapers and claiming them as one'sown. Have you seen the rods on Ebay that sell for $400 and are built from old crappy Montague blanks. Some guys sell them as new rods.Or for that matter, I know guys who build on Partridge or Sharpe'sblanks, and call the rods "custom made." C'mon, give me a break.Again, I know that doesn't apply to the regulars on this list. Butare those rods equivalent to yours and mine? I think not. If you don't want to join, that's fine with me. I still thinkit's a good idea. In the spirit of open-ness,Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Wed Oct 31 09:49:16 2001 f9VFnFa09375 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:49:15 - Subject: Re:dry rot I think the one I was thinking of is called "Git Rot" or something likethat.----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Re:dry rot Wasn't that stuff called "Callahans"? It has been many years since I sold my sloop, but I seem to remember using some of that stuff under theforepeak. Worked great, as I remember. Needed ventilation while drying.Badly! Lee Freeman----- Original Message -----From: Tony Young Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 2:07 AMSubject: Re:dry rot You'll laugh but try anti freeze. Serious Tony At 09:02 PM 10/29/01 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Try a boat supply store. there are a couple of products that will do the trick. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names, but if you have a good boat supply shop around you should be able to find it. If not- please let me know and I'll se what i can come up with. There is a shop calledHamilton Marine here in Maine, that I think has it and they are on the web. John K----- Original Message -----From: +ACI-Mark Dyba+ACI- +ADw- Mark+AF8-Dyba+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:42 PMSubject: Re:dry rot +AD4- This is a little off the usual subject but does anyone know of a product +AD4- that will stop dry rot. I have it in the patio and I don't want to +AD4- disassemble the patio to fix it if at all possible. Lumber yards and paint+AD4- stores are no help.+AD4- Mark----- Original Message -----+AD4- From: +ADw-postmaster+AEA-mail.hotmail.com+AD4- +AD4- Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:27 PM+AD4- Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)+AD4-+AD4-+AD4- +AD4- This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. +AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- Delivery to the following recipients failed.+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4- rodmakers+AEA-email.edu+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- +AD4-+AD4- /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 09:54:40 2001 f9VFsda11239 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:54:39 -0600 31 Oct 2001 07:54:43 PST Subject: Re: Guild harry, i'm sure there is alot of room to disagree. ijust don't understand how our starting a club anddeciding who is worthy enough to be one of us has anyeffect on the ebay outlaws. that's an old scam andbefore ebay it was done at fishing shows andfleamarkets. we have had a group in town sellingwindows-installed and collecting down payments andnever showing up again. i doubt a window installersguild would have any effect on such low- downers.timothy --- Harry Boyd wrote: timothy troester wrote: harry, and all, i just flat out disagree. we havecelebrated handshake deals and the gentlemanlyness of our associations and taken pride in "a man's word is his bond". Timothy, Glad we have started a healthy discussion. Yousay that we have"celebrated handshake deals and the gentlemanlyness(sic) of ourassociations and taken pride in "a man's word is hisbond." Well, inmost cases I agree. But let me quote the infamousDr. Phil of Oprahfame. "How's that workin' for ya?" I agree itshould. And in mostcases it does. But there are still guys who won'tabide by ourchosen ethic. Most on this list do, thank goodness.Still, justyesterday we heard about stealing tapers andclaiming them as one'sown. Have you seen the rods on Ebay that sell for$400 and are built from old crappy Montague blanks. Some guys sellthem as new rods.Or for that matter, I know guys who build onPartridge or Sharpe'sblanks, and call the rods "custom made." C'mon,give me a break.Again, I know that doesn't apply to the regulars onthis list. Butare those rods equivalent to yours and mine? Ithink not. If you don't want to join, that's fine with me. I still thinkit's a good idea. In the spirit of open-ness,Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 10:08:45 2001 f9VG8ia15758 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:08:44 - ([209.178.136.43] helo=m8e6q3) id 15yxv9-0004EI-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:08:51 -0800 Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat When I read it also seemed backward to me. It is my opinion that to have =consistent outcomes you must start from a constant point. Therefore =drying cane first to make it a constant then heat treat from there to =temper. Adam Subject: Milward Heat Treat On page 167 of the Milward book he states that he heat treats tips for = Lets them cool and afterwards heats them to 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to=fully dewater them.My problem:::::: If as he states the purpose of heat treating is to =remove water at a molecular level, how could you do this without =removing all the water in the heat treating process? It would seem that =the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours would come =before the heat treatment to remove the water at the molecular level.Can anyone enlighten me on this one?Dave When I read it also seemed backward to= opinion that to have consistent outcomes you must start from a constant = Therefore drying cane first to make it a constant then heat treat from = temper. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Dave =Norling Sent: Wednesday, October 24, = AMSubject: Milward Heat =Treat On page 167 of the Milward bookhe = Lets them cool and afterwards = 150-190 for 2or 3 hours to fully dewater them.My problem:::::: If as he states = of heat treating is to remove water at a molecular level, how could = this without removing all the water in the heat treating process? It = seem that the two steps are backwards and that the drying at 2-3 hours = level.Can anyone enlighten me on one?Dave from jerryy@webtv.net Wed Oct 31 10:29:20 2001 f9VGTJa22031 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:29:20 - by mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id IAA05265; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:29:23 - ETAtAhQJ7iMmzKxGbdu+yEIXD5z56UA6TgIVAMYw3xzurdeHOutA38nyIqZPRSlB Subject: Re: Milward Heat Treat 2001 13:50:04 -0700 Adam - If you are rough planing your strips wet it is a simple thing tosuspend them in a 5 ft. piece of PVC attached to a light box. Manypictures of the old rod shops had one. I mounted a light socket to apiece of 2x6, cut both ends out of a coffe can. cut a hole in theplastic lid. Use it all the time when I am working on strips. Eventhough I have the recommended PVC tubes with dessicant I only use those it at 90 degrees. After rough planing wet strips I just leave them inthe tube overnite and they are dryer than a popcorn f***. I do believe that a soaked strip might be damaged by temperingtemperatures. Do use 365 degrees for 17 min, pull the strips and letthem cool while the oven is reset to 190 degrees for 3 hours. Regards, Jerry Young from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Oct 31 10:37:30 2001 f9VGbTa24826 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:37:29 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:37:35 -0500 Subject: Re:dishonest Well you can peg my opinions as dishonest if you want too.But anyone who has had dealings with me knows I'm not.and I would NEVER ask someone to send me a taper(fronting as a sale)and then copy the taper. I find that dishonest. Not illegal.Just dishonest. To have a theft, it has to be against the law first.If I steal your women its dishonest,but not against the law.see my point. you'd do far better trusting me to hold your wallet than =most people I know. just ask my friends.Tony www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Well you can peg my opinions as dishonest if you want too.But anyone who has had dealings with me knows I'm not.and I would NEVER ask someone to send me a taper(fronting as a =sale)and then copy the taper. I find that dishonest. Not illegal.Just dishonest. To have a theft, it has to be against the law =first.If I steal your women its dishonest,but not against the law.see my point. you'd do far better trusting me to hold your wallet = people I know. just ask my friends.Tony www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Wed Oct 31 10:46:26 2001 f9VGkQa27928 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:46:26 - Subject: Question - Curve ball to the taper issue. If I buy a blank, say from Golden Witch (No personal interests yada yada),AJ Thramer 7' 6" 4wt. and want to label it, would I put; A.J. Thamer 7' 6" 4wt. TaperBuilt by Peter Van Schaack Or just leave it blank, unmarked except for 7' 6" 4wt. Taper / rod is his creation, the rest done by me. Pete from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 31 10:50:19 2001 f9VGoGa29306; Subject: Re: Guild That's great, who will design the coat of arms and the ceremonialcostumes?I would like to suggest a steaming pile of horse shit and crossed rods Just kidding,Terry Harry Boyd wrote: timothy troester wrote: harry, and all, i just flat out disagree. we havecelebrated handshake deals and the gentlemanlyness ofour associations and taken pride in "a man's word ishis bond". Timothy, Glad we have started a healthy discussion. You say that we have"celebrated handshake deals and the gentlemanlyness (sic) of ourassociations and taken pride in "a man's word is his bond." Well, inmost cases I agree. But let me quote the infamous Dr. Phil of Oprahfame. "How's that workin' for ya?" I agree it should. And in mostcases it does. But there are still guys who won't abide by ourchosen ethic. Most on this list do, thank goodness. Still, justyesterday we heard about stealing tapers and claiming them as one'sown. Have you seen the rods on Ebay that sell for $400 and are built from old crappy Montague blanks. Some guys sell them as new rods.Or for that matter, I know guys who build on Partridge or Sharpe'sblanks, and call the rods "custom made." C'mon, give me a break.Again, I know that doesn't apply to the regulars on this list. Butare those rods equivalent to yours and mine? I think not. If you don't want to join, that's fine with me. I still thinkit's a good idea. In the spirit of open-ness,Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Wed Oct 31 11:12:07 2001 f9VHC6a06309 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:12:06 - Subject: RE: dishonest I left my wallet on my keyboard, now it's gone, did you suck it through thewire to hold for me?-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 11:33 AM Subject: Re:dishonest Well you can peg my opinions as dishonest if you want too.But anyone who has had dealings with me knows I'm not.and I would NEVER ask someone to send me a taper(fronting as a sale)and then copy the taper. I find that dishonest. Not illegal.Just dishonest. To have a theft, it has to be against the law first.If I steal your women its dishonest,but not against the law.see my point. you'd do far better trusting me to hold your wallet thanmost people I know. just ask my friends.Tony www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} I left = my keyboard, now it's gone, did you suck it through the wire to hold for = me? MillerSent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 11:33 = Re:dishonestWell you can peg my opinions as dishonest if you want too.But anyone who has had dealings with me knows I'm not. sale)and then copy the taper. I find that dishonest. Not =illegal. first.If I steal your women its dishonest,but not against the =law.see my point. you'd do far better trusting me to hold your wallet = most people I know. just ask my friends.Tony www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jteft@frontiernet.net Wed Oct 31 11:12:29 2001 [66.133.130.232] (may be forged)) f9VHCTa06455 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:12:29 - sender ) Subject: Guild Guys,I would agree with Tom that you that are serious about rod making are =craftsman/craftsperson.Certification gets you nothing but a piece of paper. There are those who =can get certified and still can turn out sh.t in large quantities. It is =like a degree. Just about anyone can get one it's what you do with it =that counts.My 2 cents .Jim T Guys,I would agree with Tom that you that are serious = making are craftsman/craftsperson.Certification gets you nothing but a piece of paper. = those who can get certified and still can turn out sh.t in large = is like a degree. Just about anyone can get one it's what you do with it = counts.My 2 cents .Jim T from ajthramer@hotmail.com Wed Oct 31 11:14:09 2001 f9VHE8a07286 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:14:08 - Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:14:11 -0800 Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:14:11 GMT Subject: Re: Question - Curve ball to the taper issue. FILETIME=[755F4F50:01C1622F] If you bought it you can mark it any way you want to.A.J. From: "Peter Van Schaack" Subject: Question - Curve ball to the taper issue.Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:47:02 -0500 If I buy a blank, say from Golden Witch (No personal interests yada yada),AJ Thramer 7' 6" 4wt. and want to label it, would I put; A.J. Thamer 7' 6" 4wt. TaperBuilt by Peter Van Schaack Or just leave it blank, unmarked except for 7' 6" 4wt. Taper / rod is his creation, the rest done by me. Pete f9VHHqa08719 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:17:52 - (authenticated) Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:16:12 -0800 Subject: Re: Guild "T. Ackland" wrote: That's great, who will design the coat of arms and the ceremonialcostumes?I would like to suggest a steaming pile of horse shit and crossed rods Just kidding, Sounds great to me Terry. Thanks for volunteering to design the logo. TheGuild needs all the help it can get. Would you like me to put you in touchwith the Guild Officers? Perhaps you could also help me lead the class forbeginning rodmakers at the Conclave in January 2002. Just a thought,Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 11:20:51 2001 f9VHKoa09767 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:20:50 - 31 Oct 2001 09:20:58 PST Subject: Re: Guild Perhaps you could also help me lead the class forbeginning rodmakers at the Conclave in January 2002. Just a thought,Harry ...or conduct a seminar on rod impregnation? just athot. [:-)] timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Oct 31 11:23:59 2001 f9VHNua10908 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:23:56 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:24:02 -0500 Subject: Re: dishonest LOL LOL :))Let me see are you balding and middle aged?There doesn't seem to be any money in this wallet.:))Ooopps! no wait a minute. That's my wallet and I.D. I'm looking at LOL =:))Just funninTonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} LOL LOL :))Let me see are you balding and middle aged?There doesn't seem to be any money in this wallet.:)) :))Just funninTonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from bamboorods@saber.net Wed Oct 31 11:30:39 2001 f9VHUba13166 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:30:38 - Subject: Re: Now I understand the taper issue Yep, OUR revered makers of recent past had revered makers in THEIR =recent past. Course our revered makers would have never measured tapers=like we do, would they? I do agree that there is something wrong with =the stealing of tapers, but... it will occur on a regular basis. To =simplify things, maybe everyone should claim the taper of their rod as =their own. Or how about "action" which may be a combination of heat =treat, taper, amount of varnish, and guide spacing. That would probably =be an unique combination, devoid of theft and hard feelings.Chris-----Original Message----- From: Martin Jensen Subject: RE: Now I understand the taper issue Now that "almost " sounds like sarcasm... -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 12:36 PM Subject: Now I understand the taper issue I get it now. Nobody made a good taper until Garrison, Payne, =Powell, Gillum, Dickerson et al circa 1930-1950. 1880 to 1930 was a =wasteland. Glad we found this out. And none of the above builders =stole any tapers from previous builders. Nice to have this straightened =out.Chris Message Yep, OUR revered makers ofrecent = something wrong with the stealing of tapers, but... it will occur on a = combination of heat treat, taper, amount of varnish, and guide = feelings.Chris -----Original = bamboorods@saber.net = <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:06 PMSubject: RE: Now understand the taper issue sarcasm... Martin Jensen -----Original =Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.w= RaineSent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 12:36 = issue taper until Garrison, Payne, Powell, Gillum, Dickerson et al = Chris from blitzenrods@yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 11:53:36 2001 f9VHrZa21850 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:53:35 - Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:53:43 PST Subject: Re: In search of taper for rod Mark, In addition to the tapers suggested, here are a couplemore to consider. A handplaned rod based on the Payne97 taper as measured at 5" increments makes a nicemedium action rod that flexes in the middle and up andis good at the distances you mentioned. Also, a handplaned rod based on the Dickerson 7012taper as measured at 5" increments makes a rod similarto the above mentioned Payne 97 taper handplaned rodbased on measurements taken at 5" increments, but withwhat I consider more power in the butt, and a littlefaster action. These assessments based on 4DT line. Chris --- Mark & Kathy Pohl wrote: I'm in the process of building my first bambooflyrod and am in search of a taper that would be 7' medium action (mid flex, too a little above mid)progressive taper rod that will load up quikly tocast a double taper 4wt (ideal rod wt ~ 3.75 wt) from 20 to 40 ft with ability to control the loopsize. It should also be able to turn over a 15 ft.7x leader and have a little extra power if needed.That's my ideal rod, do you have any suggestions?Thanks, Mark __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Wed Oct 31 11:55:27 2001 f9VHtQa22645 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:55:26 - Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:54:50 -0500 Subject: Re: copying your tapers Harry, Let me throw a twist in here. I'm sorry that I don't remember who madethembut you cast the two rods based on the Martha Marie taper. One you likedbetter than the other. As I recall the difference was that one of them hadan extra guide. Did you also cast the original of the Martha Marie that wasthere and how did it compare to the other two? I guess my question would be, if you had made those two rods would youcredit PHY on the blanks considering there was that much difference to youbetween them? And were they anywhere at all similar to the original made byPHY? What I am getting out of this thread is that if I go out to make a Replicaof someone else's rod, I need to give credit where it is due. If I plan tomake a rod that Resembles someone else's rod, then I don't think I'll labelthe rod as such. Tapers may be the starting point or backbone of the rodbut overall action and castability is affected by # of guides, guideplacement, varnish thickness, heat treatment and all the other variablesthat we deal with. I can't make your rods, Nunley's, PHY's or anyoneelse's. As I see it, the best anyone can do is only mimic them and that issomething different than making a duplicate. Of course this is from the guy who built a rod that the only similarity withthe original is that they are both two piece rods. ;^))) Regards,Tim ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: copying your tapers Doug, Reed, and others, You've really made me think about this. I guess I'm naive, but I honestly never thought about using the "Payne 101 taper" as a marketing gimmick. Istarted signing my rods that way out of a sincere respect for those who have gone before. That's the absolute truth. The question arises whether or not I will change what I do. Chances are not good that I'll quit crediting the originators. I'd never use a taper that someone who developed it didn't want me to use. I remember a line fromGarrison saying that he was primarily a rod designer, and a builder second. Well, I'm just the opposite. For the most part I use tapers others havedeveloped, tweaked here and there, smoothed out a little, with the tipsincreased or decreased a little, and so on. But I don't have the inclination to sit with graph paper and pencil, or hexrod, or any of the other tools, and design original tapers. So I'll keep on crediting those who do, not as amarketing ploy, but out of respect. Harry "Douglas P. Easton" wrote: The bottom line, I think is that using another rod maker's name (PAYNE 102 taper) to sell a product comes very close to trademark infringement- particularly when the maker or his successors is still active. Unfortunately the cost of bringing a damage suit against someone who engages in thispractice is prohibitive. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from rmoon@ida.net Wed Oct 31 11:57:53 2001 f9VHvqa23714 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:57:52 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: Guild Tim You said it man!!!Ralph timothy troester wrote: harry, and all, i just flat out disagree. we havecelebratedhandshake deals and the gentlemanlyness ofour associations and takenpride in "a man's word is his bond". a man's skill as a builder is in hisworkand is apparant to all. if a guy wants to conduct hislife andassociacions in a just and moral way he will.what i don't need or want isone more do-gooder grouplooking over my shoulder telling me if i'm goodenough, if i'm right enough, whether i'm the rodmaker sortofperson or the kind that anyone else wants around. idon't think a unioun,a club, another church group orneighborhood association will make me orus any betterpersons or rodmakers. as it is we meet togetheronequal footing. i will not stand before any panel withmy hat in myhand for proof of the right to live mylife from childhood to here as i've wrote: All, I joined the Custom Rodbuilders Guild. http://www.rodguild.com/ Thoughitis mostly for graphite rods, and many of its membersdo rodsother than fly, Istill think it's worth the $25 membership. Somegood people are working onrequirements for "Certification" it is worth thinkingabout. I feel it is a step inthe right direction,and worth taking a few minutesto check out.HarryAllen Thramer wrote: We talked about the guild idea in the past and I think... we decided that we are all too cantankerous and independent to take direction from anybody - even ourselves! :)A.J. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp-- -- Harry Boyd -- http://www.canerods.com/ --Bamboo Rods --http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- ====="Gooda' mornin', misterbear!"...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek E.A.Poe__________________________________________________DoYou Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com. -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from anglport@con2.com Wed Oct 31 11:59:24 2001 f9VHxNa24457 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:59:23 - Subject: Re: schools and world knowledge NEW WARNING-- LONG RANT! Guys,I gotta open my maw here. I taught for 34 years in NYC, as liberal aplace as any of us are likely to find, and with the exception of one (ONE!)kook, I never heard of ANYONE "teaching" anything like gay was good ordesirable or preferrable. Even the "kook"was not into that stuff, she wasmore into causing a riot if you didn't like what the person on stage wassaying so that others wouldn't be "contaminated" by his thinking. Not evenpeople who were probably gay in their own orientation ever flogged such Since I taught Math, I wasn't involved in too much morality teaching (other than trying to get the kids to be able to figure their own change atthe store so that THEY were in charge of who came out ahead in the mistakethe cashier would inevitably make ) but I can tell you that sitting withother teachers for lunch and free periods for all that time, they weretotally into merely respecting and not castigating those who were different from "the norm".We were in a totally integrated school and were able to keep the lid onthrough all of the 60s, 70s, and 80s, with ALL of the other 6 highschools inour local district (Staten Island as opposed to NYC in toto) exploding morethan once with racial and other tensions. I think we did a pretty good jobof molding those kids so that they were tolerant of others' beliefs!Are you going to find @$$ ----s in schools? Oh you betcha! But they'reusually crappy teachers rather than prosyletizers of fringe lifestyles.Sometimes you'll get a jerk who tells the kids that drugs are cool ( andTHAT one should be taken out in chains), but to undermine basic TenCommandments/Golden Rule/Decency-towards-others tenets is just cuttingyourown throat in front of 34 kids, with parents, and advisors and advocatesbehind them.Now was I ever told by kids I was stupid to teach as their parents toldthem I'd never be able to do anything else and their friends who dealt drugswere already driving Beemers and I had a 5 year old Subaru? You betchaagain!When we discussed what to do with that change I mentioned above, wannaknow how many thought it'd be nice or fair to help the cashier and give itback? Even after I pointed out that it would probably come out of thecashier's pay? Not many. Where'd they get THAT idea, from their secondgradeteacher in "How to Rip People Off 101"? Yeah, I tried to get them to see afairer point of view and most of them looked at me as though I were crazy.It certainly seemed alien to them!I'm sorry guys, I've been a parent for 31 years and a teacher for 34 andI think I'll always side with the teacher ( all other things being equal).Yes, our hands are tied in lots of ways ( the teacher who had to counsel thekids the Board insisted we give condoms to wasn't exactly a volunteer) butmy experience is that too many parents would rather ask "What ARE theyteaching you in school?" rather than try to inculcate anything at home.Believe me, if you're offended by what I'm saying because this is not you,you're not in any great majority in my experience. I used to love to have aparent pat his Johnnie or Jane on the head during Open School Night and tellthem , "It's OK, I was never too good at math either" (like there's a MathGene or something). For Goid sake, HELP the kid if he has trouble! I offeredafterschoo, tutoring for a long time and was often told by parents "But hehas football practice (or somesuch) at that time!". Gee, and I thought he'dneed to pass a Regents exam to graduate from highschool; sorry I'minconveniencing him.I have read that the reason people have so much respect for Asianstudents is that when they do poorly their parents say "Work harder" whilewhen our (indigenous) children fail they are told "That stuff is too hard,let me talk to that teacher!" or "Why do you have to learn that anyway?" Itreally is true ( as has beensaid by exasperated teachers down through time)that for 40 minutes a day, I can't give them nearly the backgrounding inlife that a parent can if he's determined to.And as an afterthought, (Marty, in particular) the morality differencesbetween Judaism and Christianity aren't that different, but what if theteacher spun the terminology more toward the way Jews see life thanChristians do, would you still be thrilled to have your kid inculcated withthat "old-fashioned religion" under those circimstances (or vice versa)? Anddon't get me wrong, I'm not trying to infer you're bigot or anything, it'sjust that I think people who want that generally want something cantedtoward THEIR religion, not some generic one. If you can't do 'em all, youcan't do one.Now that I've stuck my neck out, notice that I didn't use html scriptingand I already cut off the previous messages to show what a good guy I am*BSEG*I'm done (I think) and I hope I'll be welcome at the next Gathering*G*,Art from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 31 12:00:01 2001 f9VHxwa24738 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:59:58 - Subject: Re: Guild Harry,I promised myself that I would never plane another piece of bamboo so thatletsme out of rodmaking lessons.Now, if you need a "heavy" to lean on those substandard makers then I'myourman?Terry Harry Boyd wrote: "T. Ackland" wrote: That's great, who will design the coat of arms and the ceremonialcostumes?I would like to suggest a steaming pile of horse shit and crossed rods Just kidding, Sounds great to me Terry. Thanks for volunteering to design the logo. TheGuild needs all the help it can get. Would you like me to put you in touchwith the Guild Officers? Perhaps you could also help me lead the class forbeginning rodmakers at the Conclave in January 2002. Just a thought,Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from johnh@structsys.com Wed Oct 31 12:02:30 2001 f9VI2Qa25821 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:02:30 - f9VI2Tp26792 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:02:29 -0500 Subject: Fw: hollow built hey all ,I am still working on building out the tool list for rod building (strictlypersonel-not commercial!!), so my question is without any doubt a freshmanquestion. By the way, where I am at with Bamboo rod #1 is that I believe Iam approaching build-out of the final planing forms, have roughed out therough and preliminary forms, and still have to deal with ovens, binders(thinking 4 string (??)), dip/ drain systems (more questions on this later). The hollow built rod intrigues me, while contemplating what rod # 1 is mentto be (desirably Smithsonian class- but realistically and probably a tomatostake)- I wonder about using balsa as a filler for hollow built rods. I saythis in reference to the concerns over loss of glue bond surface area forhollow built and the subsequent evolution to fluted hollow built. If amaker used balsa as a filler, glued up after the heat treat cycle, you wouldloose a little mass but perhaps gain in inner core integrity in terms ofshear deformation or whatever. I suspect you might intoduce a dampingeffect, slowing the rod action down- but has this been tried? I am the first to confess ignorance as to whats been written or tried- but Ihave to wonder, especially in butt sections, what kind of stength ormaterial properties is necessary for a good fly rod (note: in myvernacular, and experience in the local waters - I tend to think of arelatively fast, 8'6 to 9'0 plastic (!!!) 4 - 6 wt as being the best allaround rod to have) thanksJHnewbie in training from flytyr@southshore.com Wed Oct 31 12:05:10 2001 f9VI59a26972 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:05:09 - f9VI5Gg22673 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:05:16 -0600 Subject: Tapers With all this dilemma about tapers I need aquestion answered.My first rod was a Sir D. It cast like a dream.Found it to be real versatile.In a casting accident, I was standing on theleader when I handed it to a friend to cast, thetip was broken.I made a new tip, this was after I had made anumber of rods, and found the rod did not cast thesame. I checked the new tip and it was within .001of the printed taper.Went back to the original tip and miked it. Foundit was undersize. I really liked it better.Now the question, did I create a new taper or didI unknowing copy someone else's taper.Should I say this is a Spezio Taper that I onlyworked on while I was making my first tip section. Shall I remove Spezio "Sir" D" from the rod.Please tell me, I really don't want to make amistake on what I print on the rod.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 31 12:09:12 2001 f9VI9Ba28353 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:09:11 - (authenticated) Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:09:02 -0800 Subject: Re: copying your tapers Tim Wilhelm wrote: Tapers may be the starting point or backbone of the rodbut overall action and castability is affected by # of guides, guideplacement, varnish thickness, heat treatment and all the other variablesthat we deal with. Tim, That's why my rods are labeled "Payne 101 TAPER". Not just Payne 101. Makesense? Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 12:12:24 2001 f9VICMa29464 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:12:22 -0600 31 Oct 2001 10:12:29 PST Subject: Re: Tapers --- Tony Spezio wrote: With all this dilemma about tapers I need a , did I create a new taper or did I unknowing copy someone else's taper. i would say you stumbled on to a good thing. stumblingaround does give birth to some good things at times. timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Oct 31 12:16:44 2001 f9VIGha01002 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:16:43 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:16:48 -0500 Subject: Re:Guild LOL LOL "substandard makers"Spoken from by a true Deadeye knight.fill us in more Master Yoda.I can't wait to snatch the pebble from your hand. LOLYou crack me up guy. Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} LOL LOL "substandard makers" fill us in more Master Yoda. You crack me up guy. Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from ttalsma@macatawa.org Wed Oct 31 12:25:11 2001 f9VIPAa03659 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:25:10 - id ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:19:05 -0500 id V8NVMGPD; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:19:04 -0500 Subject: Re: copying your tapers Something just popped into my head. If we are so concerned about this,I remember a few years ago Tony Young was striving to get within1/1000th of a measurement. If anyone is hitting their measurments righton, I haven't heard about it. I certainly know that I wouldn't be ableto hit it. Then, there was some discussion about how much is added tothe measurements because of the glue that is used. Do we know how muchthe glue used on these tapers accounts for? Are the strips perfect 60*triangles? Was there a little imperfection here, a little imperfectionthere in each rod? If the strips were milled, did any of the stripsslip during machining? Whoops, I left it in the heat treating oven toolong, or was that not long enough. I wet planed this batch of strips,is that going to affect anything? The possibilities are endless. I think there are way too many variables in all rods, bothmass-manufactured and hand-planed that to get a consistant result thatsomeone can say that your directly infringing on anyone elses work. After all, we're working with a natural fiber here with inherantproblems. Tim Wilhelm wrote: Harry, Let me throw a twist in here. I'm sorry that I don't remember who madethembut you cast the two rods based on the Martha Marie taper. One you likedbetter than the other. As I recall the difference was that one of them hadan extra guide. Did you also cast the original of the Martha Marie that wasthere and how did it compare to the other two? I guess my question would be, if you had made those two rods would youcredit PHY on the blanks considering there was that much difference toyoubetween them? And were they anywhere at all similar to the original madebyPHY? What I am getting out of this thread is that if I go out to make a Replicaof someone else's rod, I need to give credit where it is due. If I plan tomake a rod that Resembles someone else's rod, then I don't think I'll labelthe rod as such. Tapers may be the starting point or backbone of the rodbut overall action and castability is affected by # of guides, guideplacement, varnish thickness, heat treatment and all the other variablesthat we deal with. I can't make your rods, Nunley's, PHY's or anyoneelse's. As I see it, the best anyone can do is only mimic them and that issomething different than making a duplicate. Of course this is from the guy who built a rod that the only similarity withthe original is that they are both two piece rods. ;^))) Regards,Tim ----- Original Message -----From: "Harry Boyd" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:44 PMSubject: Re: copying your tapers Doug, Reed, and others, You've really made me think about this. I guess I'm naive, but I honestly never thought about using the "Payne 101 taper" as a marketinggimmick. Istarted signing my rods that way out of a sincere respect for those who have gone before. That's the absolute truth. The question arises whether or not I will change what I do. Chances are not good that I'll quit crediting the originators. I'd never use a taper that someone who developed it didn't want me to use. I remember a line fromGarrison saying that he was primarily a rod designer, and a builder second. Well, I'm just the opposite. For the most part I use tapers others havedeveloped, tweaked here and there, smoothed out a little, with the tipsincreased or decreased a little, and so on. But I don't have the inclination to sit with graph paper and pencil, or hexrod, or any of the other tools, and design original tapers. So I'll keep on crediting those who do, not as amarketing ploy, but out of respect. Harry "Douglas P. Easton" wrote: The bottom line, I think is that using another rod maker's name (PAYNE 102 taper) to sell a product comes very close to trademark infringement- particularly when the maker or his successors is still active. Unfortunately the cost of bringing a damage suit against someone who engages inthispractice is prohibitive. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from gjm80301@yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 13:21:03 2001 Received: from f9VJL1a15894 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 Received: from [209.125.67.182] by web13603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 31 Oct ttalsma@macatawa.org, rodmakers In- 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Todd, While that is all, ofcourse, true; there is obviously more to the story. How can we tell ifsomething of value is transferred when a taper is exchanged? Well, look athow people value it - look at the demand. As one of many hoarders of tapers,I clearly have voted with my actions that something of value is beingtransferred. If the taper belongs to someone else and the transfer couldhurt them, there is an ethical, if not legal, issue involved. Jerry --- ToddTalsma wrote: Something just popped into my head. If we are so concerned aboutthis,I remember a few years ago Tony Young was striving to get within1/1000th of a measurement. If anyone is hitting their measurmentsrighton, I haven't heard about it. I certainly know that I wouldn't beableto hit it. Then, there was some discussion about how much is addedtothe measurements because of the glue that is used. Do we know howmuchthe glue used on these tapers accounts for? Are the strips perfect60*triangles? Was there a little imperfection here, a littleimperfectionthere in each rod? If the strips were milled, did any of thestripsslip during machining? Whoops, I left it in the heat treating oventoolong, or was that not long enough. I wet planed this batch ofstrips,is that going to affect anything? The possibilities are endless. I think there are way too many variables in all rods, bothmass-manufactured and hand-planed that to get a consistant resultthatsomeone can say that your directly infringing on anyone elses work. After all, we're working with a natural fiber here with inherantproblems. Tim Wilhelm wrote: Harry, Let me throw a twist in here. I'm sorry that I don't remember who made them but you cast the two rods based on the Martha Marie taper. One you liked better than the other. As I recall the difference was that one of them had an extra guide. Did you also cast the original of the Martha Marie that was there and how did it compare to the other two? I guess my question would be, if you had made those two rods would you credit PHY on the blanks considering there was that much difference to you between them? And were they anywhere at all similar to the original made by PHY? What I am getting out of this thread is that if I go out to make a Replica of someone else's rod, I need to give credit where it is due. If I plan to make a rod that Resembles someone else's rod, then I don't think I'll label the rod as such. Tapers may be the starting point or backbone of the rod but overall action and castability is affected by # of guides, guide placement, varnish thickness, heat treatment and all the other variables that we deal with. I can't make your rods, Nunley's, PHY's or anyone else's. As I see it, the best anyone can do is only mimic them and that is something different than making a duplicate. Of course this is from the guy who built a rod that the only similarity with the original is that they are both two piece rods. ;^))) Regards,Tim ----- Original Message -----From: "Harry Boyd" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:44 PMSubject: Re: copying your tapers Doug, Reed, and others, You've really made me think about this. I guess I'm naive, but I honestly never thought about using the "Payne 101 taper" as a marketing gimmick. I started signing my rods that way out of a sincere respect for those who have gone before. That's the absolute truth. The question arises whether or not I will change what I do. Chances are not good that I'll quit crediting the originators. I'd never use a taper that someone who developed it didn't want me to use. I remember a line from Garrison saying that he was primarily a rod designer, and a builder second. Well, I'm just the opposite. For the most part I use tapers others have developed, tweaked here and there, smoothed out a little, with the tips increased or decreased a little, and so on. But I don't have the inclination to sit with graph paper and pencil, or hexrod, or any of the other tools, and design original tapers. So I'll keep on crediting those who do, not as a marketing ploy, but out of respect. Harry "Douglas P. Easton" wrote: The bottom line, I think is that using another rod maker's name (PAYNE 102 taper) to sell a product comes very close to trademark infringement- particularly when the maker or his successors is still active. Unfortunately the cost of bringing a damage suit against someone who engages in this practice is prohibitive. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- -- Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 31 13:24:56 2001 f9VJOua17061 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:24:56 - Subject: Re: Guild I think we can start looking at taper police next, what do you think?Terry Tony Miller wrote: LOL LOL "substandard makers"Spoken from by a true Deadeyeknight.fill us in more Master Yoda.I can't wait to snatch the pebble from your hand. LOLYou crack me up guy.at least your notboring:))Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from channer@frontier.net Wed Oct 31 13:26:38 2001 f9VJQba17601 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:26:37 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:32:45 - Subject: Re: You can't get there from here Yep, and Payne's and Leonards machines both used 3" centers.John Reed Curry wrote: I'm finding the brouhaha about copying tapers quite enlightening... atleast I know who *not* to ask to hold my wallet during the next brawl atGrayling:).There should be no concern about copying tapers from the productionrodmakers, e.g., Payne, Leonard, Thomas, because the originals wereproduced on bevelers or mills. The template used on a beveler permitstremendous flexibility in slopes, not so the simple spline curves youcan get on 5" centers on steel forms. If you were to take themeasurements every inch on an original Payne, then compare it to a rodcreated by handplaning, you would probably find that they only agreedevery 5":) The tips of a Halstead, for example, may only show a .014"drop every 5", but most of that drop occurs over a 2" span. You justcan't get there from here.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from channer@frontier.net Wed Oct 31 13:33:10 2001 f9VJX9a19479 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:33:09 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:39:16 - Subject: What the H? Are all you guys doing playing on the internet on company time?????Iknow Tony S, Art P. and Ralph M are retired, those of the rest of youwho are too please forgive me, but the rest of you, GET BACK TOWORK!!!!!!!, you're putting your employers out of business. I'm on mylunch break so I have an excuse, but everyone else is just slacking.LOL, by the way, lighten up already.(have a nice day)John from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Wed Oct 31 13:38:36 2001 f9VJcZa21028 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:38:35 - Subject: RE: copying your tapers Has anyone made two, three, four or more rods that are exactly identical intaper, weight, length, kept all the variables un-varied, moisture content,length of heat treatment, time to cool, glue thickness, controlled thegrowth in a naturally grown plant so there a no variances in power fibers - from what I have been reading is there are too many variables to make tworods exactly perfectly identical, cast exactly the same, close yes, but notthe same. Proven tapers are just that, they work within the confines of all thevariables.I would give credit where credit is due, if you build a rod based on a taperlet it be known. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: copying your tapers Something just popped into my head. If we are so concerned about this,I remember a few years ago Tony Young was striving to get within1/1000th of a measurement. If anyone is hitting their measurments righton, I haven't heard about it. I certainly know that I wouldn't be ableto hit it. Then, there was some discussion about how much is added tothe measurements because of the glue that is used. Do we know how muchthe glue used on these tapers accounts for? Are the strips perfect 60*triangles? Was there a little imperfection here, a little imperfectionthere in each rod? If the strips were milled, did any of the stripsslip during machining? Whoops, I left it in the heat treating oven toolong, or was that not long enough. I wet planed this batch of strips,is that going to affect anything? The possibilities are endless. I think there are way too many variables in all rods, bothmass-manufactured and hand-planed that to get a consistant result thatsomeone can say that your directly infringing on anyone elses work.After all, we're working with a natural fiber here with inherantproblems. Tim Wilhelm wrote: Harry, Let me throw a twist in here. I'm sorry that I don't remember who made them but you cast the two rods based on the Martha Marie taper. One you likedbetter than the other. As I recall the difference was that one of them had an extra guide. Did you also cast the original of the Martha Marie that was there and how did it compare to the other two? I guess my question would be, if you had made those two rods would youcredit PHY on the blanks considering there was that much difference toyoubetween them? And were they anywhere at all similar to the original made by PHY? What I am getting out of this thread is that if I go out to make a Replicaof someone else's rod, I need to give credit where it is due. If I plan to make a rod that Resembles someone else's rod, then I don't think I'll label the rod as such. Tapers may be the starting point or backbone of the rodbut overall action and castability is affected by # of guides, guideplacement, varnish thickness, heat treatment and all the other variablesthat we deal with. I can't make your rods, Nunley's, PHY's or anyoneelse's. As I see it, the best anyone can do is only mimic them and that is something different than making a duplicate. Of course this is from the guy who built a rod that the only similarity with the original is that they are both two piece rods. ;^))) Regards,Tim ----- Original Message -----From: "Harry Boyd" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:44 PMSubject: Re: copying your tapers Doug, Reed, and others, You've really made me think about this. I guess I'm naive, but I honestly never thought about using the "Payne 101 taper" as a marketinggimmick. I started signing my rods that way out of a sincere respect for those who have gone before. That's the absolute truth. The question arises whether or not I will change what I do. Chances are not good that I'll quit crediting the originators. I'd never use a taper that someone who developed it didn't want me to use. I remember a line fromGarrison saying that he was primarily a rod designer, and a builder second. Well, I'm just the opposite. For the most part I use tapers others havedeveloped, tweaked here and there, smoothed out a little, with the tipsincreased or decreased a little, and so on. But I don't have the inclination to sit with graph paper and pencil, or hexrod, or any of the other tools, and design original tapers. So I'll keep on crediting those who do, not as a marketing ploy, but out of respect. Harry "Douglas P. Easton" wrote: The bottom line, I think is that using another rod maker's name (PAYNE 102 taper) to sell a product comes very close to trademark infringement- particularly when the maker or his successors is still active. Unfortunately the cost of bringing a damage suit against someone who engages inthispractice is prohibitive. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction from boyko@peoplepc.com Wed Oct 31 13:42:48 2001 f9VJgla22314 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:42:48 - 0800 -0800 Subject: tapers etc, etc, etc, This will be my last comment on the taper subject, will just sit back =and watch you all go at it. I am just going to go about enjoying =myself building my equipment, deciding on which rod taper I will use my =first rod. I really think it is going to be a Dickerson, or a J. Payne =, or maybe it will be a Winston, but someone worthy of my respect. Whos =ever taper I decide on, I will put that taper,and individuals name on =the rod. If I get to the point of finding a rod taper of someone who is =alive yet, but published, I will also put the taper, individuals name of =the rod. If I find a rod which I like, but that individual tells me I =cannot copy or use that same taper, okay I will go on to something else. =Now all these rods are for my self or my children, or I may even give a =couple to my friends. Now, as for a selling a bamboo rod which I have =built, glory, glory, will I ever be happy about that.Now, what do you =guys want me to do. Put the name the person whos taper it is on the =rod, yes... If that taper is on the web site, or published in a book, I =dont think I need taht persons permission, but give him the recognition =with his name on the rod , yes. If I borow a rod which someone as spent =many hours designing, and give me persmission to copy it and build one = and I do any way, that is wrong, I would not do it, and that is dirty on =my part.That is where I am at and will stay on till you tell me =different. birddog This will be my last comment on the = about enjoying myself building my equipment, deciding on which rod taper = Payne , or maybe it will be a Winston, but someone worthy of my = Whos ever taper I decide on, I will put that taper,and individuals name = copy or use that same taper, okay I will go on to something = these rods are for my self or my children, or I may even give a couple = friends. Now, as for a selling a bamboo rod which I have built, glory, = will I ever be happy about that.Now, what do you guys want me to = the name the person whos taper it is on the rod, yes... If that taper is = web site, or published in a book, I dont think I need taht persons = rod which someone as spent many hours designing, and give me persmission= measure and copy it, and I do any way, that is wrong, I would not do it, = that is dirty on my part.That is where I am at and will stay on till you = from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 31 14:02:18 2001 f9VK2Ha27194 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:02:17 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: What the H? John,I fired me yesterday for playing on the computer during work hours, butcouldn't find anyone ignorant enough to take on my job, so I hired meback... with a rule... email is OK, Hearts is not. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: What the H? Are all you guys doing playing on the internet on company time?????Iknow Tony S, Art P. and Ralph M are retired, those of the rest of youwho are too please forgive me, but the rest of you, GET BACK TOWORK!!!!!!!, you're putting your employers out of business. I'm on mylunch break so I have an excuse, but everyone else is just slacking.LOL, by the way, lighten up already.(have a nice day)John from pohl@earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 14:13:29 2001 f9VKDSa00174 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:13:28 - helo=pohl) id 15z1jz-0000S1-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:13:35 -0800 Subject: reading stress curves....... I'm in the process of building my first rod. I'm going into selecting ataper blind because the selection of rods for me to cast is very limited, soI have to make the best guess on choosing a taper that will fit my fishingstyle. I would like to learn more about interpreting stress curves. HarryBoyd gave me a broad interpretation on them, Identifyng a curve that relatesto a fast rod and one that's parobolic. Thanks Harry! I would like to learnthem in more detail though. I need help interpreting the following .. andhow these graphs relate to rod action and feel. 1) Amplitude of tip stress. I see some rods go as high as 250 and some 150.What does this mean.2) Duration of max amplitude of tip stress. Some are short lived only at 1or 2 stations and others go half way down rod.3) How is progressive taper read, are there different types? I see some rodslike garrison continue horizontal while others have ~ 45 degree negativeslope.. How are these actions different?4) what about line wt. Can you look at a taper and stress curve to helpdetermine the best weight for the rod. I like them slightly overloaded ie. 5) What about modifying a taper... Anything that would help me turn stress data/taper into rod action feelwould be greatly appreciated! I want to build.... but I need that companionrod, that I like very much to help me keep going...... Thank you all for thehelp, you guys have been great! Mark from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Wed Oct 31 14:15:24 2001 f9VKFNa00821 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:15:23 - Subject: RE: What the H? Unfortunately some of us have jobs that stick at these silly devices allday, I get to baby sit the kiddies' Proxy server at a school and make surethey behave themselves on the internet, block the inappropriate sites CyberPatrol does not catch and report what little Johnny and little Debbie havebeen doing. Email well, that is where I get all the good stuff from - Makesthe day go by until I can throw my big @#$ in a river and catch some fish,throw 'em back for tomorrows fun! Pete -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: What the H? John,I fired me yesterday for playing on the computer during work hours, butcouldn't find anyone ignorant enough to take on my job, so I hired meback... with a rule... email is OK, Hearts is not. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: What the H? Are all you guys doing playing on the internet on company time?????Iknow Tony S, Art P. and Ralph M are retired, those of the rest of youwho are too please forgive me, but the rest of you, GET BACK TOWORK!!!!!!!, you're putting your employers out of business. I'm on mylunch break so I have an excuse, but everyone else is just slacking.LOL, by the way, lighten up already.(have a nice day)John from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Wed Oct 31 14:22:47 2001 f9VKMka02924 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:22:46 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:12:48 -0600 Subject: FW: reading stress curves....... Harry -- This gives me an idea for next year's gathering. What if we gotthe makers who are bringing rods to send in the tapers so that a personcould run them through Hexrod for the stress graphs and have a book ofthemthere at the rod rack? Then as we cast them, we can correlate a graph to afeel. That is something concrete that we can learn from, and carry homewith us. Of course, it would be completely voluntary. If a maker did notwant to offer dimensions, that's OK, too. Just keep bringin' dem rods,please?? I'll do the number crunchin' if anybody would be willing to send them outahead of time. Regards -- TAM Good questions, Mark.... -----Original Message----- Subject: reading stress curves....... I'm in the process of building my first rod. I'm going into selecting ataper blind because the selection of rods for me to cast is very limited, soI have to make the best guess on choosing a taper that will fit my fishingstyle. I would like to learn more about interpreting stress curves. (snip) from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 14:41:33 2001 f9VKfWa07715 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:41:33 - Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:41:37 PST Subject: RE: What the H? "Rod Makers \(E-mail\)" Know how you feel, when you work on a busy computerhelpdesk the only way to maintain your sanity betweencalls is to read mail and surf. --- Peter Van Schaack wrote: Unfortunately some of us have jobs that stick atthese silly devices allday, I get to baby sit the kiddies' Proxy server ata school and make surethey behave themselves on the internet, block theinappropriate sites CyberPatrol does not catch and report what little Johnnyand little Debbie havebeen doing. Email well, that is where I get all thegood stuff from - Makesthe day go by until I can throw my big @#$ in ariver and catch some fish,throw 'em back for tomorrows fun! Pete -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Of Bob NunleySent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 2:56 PM Subject: Re: What the H? John,I fired me yesterday for playing on the computerduring work hours, butcouldn't find anyone ignorant enough to take on myjob, so I hired meback... with a rule... email is OK, Hearts is not. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrods http://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm ----- Original Message -----From: "channer" Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:34 PMSubject: What the H? Are all you guys doing playing on the internet on company time?????I know Tony S, Art P. and Ralph M are retired, those of the rest of you who are too please forgive me, but the rest of you, GET BACK TO WORK!!!!!!!, you're putting your employers out of business. I'm on my lunch break so I have an excuse, but everyone else is just slacking. LOL, by the way, lighten up already.(have a nice day) John __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Wed Oct 31 14:58:55 2001 f9VKwsa11718 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:58:55 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:57:04 -0600 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:05:25 -0800 Subject: RE: Question - Curve ball to the taper issue. To put a further curve on this question, I know of a "well known rodmakingcompany" that contracts out the making of it's blanks to an offshorecompany. Should these rods be labled as from this "well known rodmakingcompany"? (Remember the Chinese bamboo rodmaking spam?)Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:47 AM Subject: Question - Curve ball to the taper issue. If I buy a blank, say from Golden Witch (No personal interests yada yada),AJ Thramer 7' 6" 4wt. and want to label it, would I put; A.J. Thamer 7' 6" 4wt. TaperBuilt by Peter Van Schaack Or just leave it blank, unmarked except for 7' 6" 4wt. Taper / rod is his creation, the rest done by me. Pete This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from rodwrapp@swbell.net Wed Oct 31 15:06:25 2001 f9VL6Oa13544 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:06:25 -0600 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Re: Guild "rod 'akers" The guild can be a good thing?? I go to gun and Knife shows and set up abooth with a buddie of mine, he is a knife dealer.. Well he smokes a lot soI end up selling knives while he smokes, so I get guys comeing up to boothasking for Cutom Knives from guys I have never heard of, so I asked mybuddie who such and such is, and he tells me that the Guild did a story onhim in last months issue, so naturally people now want his knives.. Let metell you guys some Custom knives sell double and triple on what one of yourrods sell for.. Basically the reason on how people find out about you isthrough the Guilds Magazine publication.. So the Guild can be a very goodthing.. Thanks Dave----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Guild harry, i'm sure there is alot of room to disagree. ijust don't understand how our starting a club anddeciding who is worthy enough to be one of us has anyeffect on the ebay outlaws. that's an old scam andbefore ebay it was done at fishing shows andfleamarkets. we have had a group in town sellingwindows-installed and collecting down payments andnever showing up again. i doubt a window installersguild would have any effect on such low- downers.timothy --- Harry Boyd wrote: timothy troester wrote: harry, and all, i just flat out disagree. we havecelebrated handshake deals and the gentlemanlyness of our associations and taken pride in "a man's word is his bond". Timothy, Glad we have started a healthy discussion. Yousay that we have"celebrated handshake deals and the gentlemanlyness(sic) of ourassociations and taken pride in "a man's word is hisbond." Well, inmost cases I agree. But let me quote the infamousDr. Phil of Oprahfame. "How's that workin' for ya?" I agree itshould. And in mostcases it does. But there are still guys who won'tabide by ourchosen ethic. Most on this list do, thank goodness.Still, justyesterday we heard about stealing tapers andclaiming them as one'sown. Have you seen the rods on Ebay that sell for$400 and are built from old crappy Montague blanks. Some guys sellthem as new rods.Or for that matter, I know guys who build onPartridge or Sharpe'sblanks, and call the rods "custom made." C'mon,give me a break.Again, I know that doesn't apply to the regulars onthis list. Butare those rods equivalent to yours and mine? Ithink not. If you don't want to join, that's fine with me.I still thinkit's a good idea. In the spirit of open-ness,Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 31 16:07:36 2001 f9VM7Za27583 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:07:36 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:32:09 -0600 Subject: Cure for rodmaking blues FW: LOL basis, I know you sometimes get discouraged and hate the job... either thewrapping, the sanding, the glueing, or whatever, something about it gets tous all at one time or another. Next time you start to feel this way, trythis. Lock up the shop and go to your local Pharmacy. Go to the section where thethermometers are stocked. You will need to purchase a "rectal" thermometer made by "Q-tip." Be verysure that you get the "Q-Tip" brand. When you get home, lock your doors, draw the drapes, and disconnect thephone so you will not be disturbed during your therapy. Change to very comfortable clothing, such as a sweat suit and lie down onyour bed. Open the package and remove the thermometer. Carefully place it on the bedside table so that it will not become chippedor broken. Take out the written material that accompanies the thermometer and readit. You will notice that in small print there is a statement: "Every rectalthermometer made by Q-tip is personally tested." Now, close your eyes and repeat out loud five times, "I am so glad I do not work in quality control at the Q-tip Company." from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Oct 31 16:14:25 2001 f9VMEOa29100 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:14:24 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:14:31 -0500 Subject: Re: What the H? I'm trying "making" full time.My computer is only about 12 ft away from where I make rods.So I can run over to the computer every few minutes and look at all the =cool stuff everyone posts.The ultimate in financial ruin:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} I'm trying "making" full time. rods. the cool stuff everyone posts.The ultimate in financial ruin:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from "Marty D. aka \"none" Wed Oct 31 16:29:11 2001 f9VMTBa02235 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:29:11 - (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4167. . Clean. Processed in 0.500003 secs); 31 Oct 200122:22:16 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: schools, etc... take it off the list! I am sorry for responding to the thread but the buttons were pushed andthe machine was set in motion. Marty lblan@provide.net wrote: Perhaps, but I rather suspect that most of us would allowthe list's owner to decide what is or is not appropriate forposting to the list. Larry Blan On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:25:24 ESTSBDunn@aol.com wrote: Well said Eric. I know lots of us were thinking it. regards, Steve. from douglosey@spectrumenergy.com Wed Oct 31 16:30:50 2001 f9VMUna02674 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:30:49 - OAA16126; Subject: Re: Cure for rodmaking blues LMAO...Bob......I've got a real life one for you....I've been transfeeredtemporarily to Delaware so my girlfriend is out here looking for a part timejob...she calls a local job shop and is offered 2 positions....One isquality control inspector at Playtex Tampon Division makes my job lookpretty good..... Losey----- Original Message ----- Subject: Cure for rodmaking blues FW: LOL basis, I know you sometimes get discouraged and hate the job... either thewrapping, the sanding, the glueing, or whatever, something about it gets to us all at one time or another. Next time you start to feel this way, trythis. Lock up the shop and go to your local Pharmacy. Go to the section where the thermometers are stocked. You will need to purchase a "rectal" thermometer made by "Q-tip." Be verysure that you get the "Q-Tip" brand. When you get home, lock your doors, draw the drapes, and disconnect thephone so you will not be disturbed during your therapy. Change to very comfortable clothing, such as a sweat suit and lie down onyour bed. Open the package and remove the thermometer. Carefully place it on the bedside table so that it will not become chippedor broken. Take out the written material that accompanies the thermometer and read it. You will notice that in small print there is a statement: "Every rectalthermometer made by Q-tip is personally tested." Now, close your eyes and repeat out loud five times, "I am so glad I do not work in quality control at the Q-tip Company." from ajthramer@hotmail.com Wed Oct 31 17:04:44 2001 f9VN4ga09821 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:04:43 - Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:04:42 -0800 Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:04:42 GMT Subject: RE: copying your tapers FILETIME=[6D08F2D0:01C16260] That is how I build most of the time and out of 10 rods you will get 8 or 9 that are virtually indistinguishable and a flyer. Not alot different but a little bit.A.J. From: "Peter Van Schaack" Subject: RE: copying your tapersDate: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:39:16 -0500 Has anyone made two, three, four or more rods that are exactly identical intaper, weight, length, kept all the variables un-varied, moisture content,length of heat treatment, time to cool, glue thickness, controlled thegrowth in a naturally grown plant so there a no variances in power fibers - from what I have been reading is there are too many variables to maketworods exactly perfectly identical, cast exactly the same, close yes, but notthe same. Proven tapers are just that, they work within the confines of all thevariables.I would give credit where credit is due, if you build a rod based on a taperlet it be known. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:22 PM Cc: fbcwin@3g.quik.com; RodmakersSubject: Re: copying your tapers Something just popped into my head. If we are so concerned about this,I remember a few years ago Tony Young was striving to get within1/1000th of a measurement. If anyone is hitting their measurments righton, I haven't heard about it. I certainly know that I wouldn't be ableto hit it. Then, there was some discussion about how much is added tothe measurements because of the glue that is used. Do we know how muchthe glue used on these tapers accounts for? Are the strips perfect 60*triangles? Was there a little imperfection here, a little imperfectionthere in each rod? If the strips were milled, did any of the stripsslip during machining? Whoops, I left it in the heat treating oven toolong, or was that not long enough. I wet planed this batch of strips,is that going to affect anything? The possibilities are endless. I think there are way too many variables in all rods, bothmass-manufactured and hand-planed that to get a consistant result thatsomeone can say that your directly infringing on anyone elses work.After all, we're working with a natural fiber here with inherantproblems. Tim Wilhelm wrote: Harry, Let me throw a twist in here. I'm sorry that I don't remember who made them but you cast the two rods based on the Martha Marie taper. One you liked better than the other. As I recall the difference was that one of them had an extra guide. Did you also cast the original of the Martha Marie that was there and how did it compare to the other two? I guess my question would be, if you had made those two rods would youcredit PHY on the blanks considering there was that much difference to you between them? And were they anywhere at all similar to the original madeby PHY? What I am getting out of this thread is that if I go out to make a Replica of someone else's rod, I need to give credit where it is due. If I plan to make a rod that Resembles someone else's rod, then I don't think I'll label the rod as such. Tapers may be the starting point or backbone of the rod but overall action and castability is affected by # of guides, guideplacement, varnish thickness, heat treatment and all the other variablesthat we deal with. I can't make your rods, Nunley's, PHY's or anyoneelse's. As I see it, the best anyone can do is only mimic them and that is something different than making a duplicate. Of course this is from the guy who built a rod that the only similarity with the original is that they are both two piece rods. ;^))) Regards,Tim ----- Original Message -----From: "Harry Boyd" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:44 PMSubject: Re: copying your tapers Doug, Reed, and others, You've really made me think about this. I guess I'm naive, but I honestly never thought about using the "Payne 101 taper" as a marketing gimmick.I started signing my rods that way out of a sincere respect for those who have gone before. That's the absolute truth. The question arises whether or not I will change what I do. Chances are not good that I'll quit crediting the originators. I'd never use a taper that someone who developed it didn't want me to use. I remember a line from Garrison saying that he was primarily a rod designer, and a builder second. Well, I'm just the opposite. For the most part I use tapers others have developed, tweaked here and there, smoothed out a little, with the tips increased or decreased a little, and so on. But I don't have the inclination to sit with graph paper and pencil, or hexrod, or any of the other tools, and design original tapers. So I'll keep on crediting those who do, not asa marketing ploy, but out of respect. Harry "Douglas P. Easton" wrote: The bottom line, I think is that using another rod maker's name (PAYNE 102 taper) to sell a product comes very close to trademarkinfringement- particularly when the maker or his successors is still active. Unfortunately the cost of bringing a damage suit against someone who engages in this practice is prohibitive. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 31 17:08:06 2001 f9VN85a10796 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:08:05 - (authenticated) Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:07:57 -0800 Subject: Re: FW: reading stress curves....... "Miller, Troy" wrote: Harry -- This gives me an idea for next year's gathering. What if we gotthe makers who are bringing rods to send in the tapers so that a personcould run them through Hexrod for the stress graphs and have a book ofthemthere at the rod rack? Troy, Mm, uh, buddy... that's what we did THIS year. Remember BillLamberson'slittle demo where you cast my 8' 5 weight?? Or were you still so zoned outonall those classic rods that you couldn't think straight. Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 31 17:25:41 2001 f9VNPea14978 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:25:40 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:50:14 -0600 Subject: Killer Billie and the Shotgun--NOT rodmaking, but funny... OK, I just had to finish telling this story to one list member that heardpart of it, but not all of it at the Southern Council Conclave, and Ithought as serious as the list had been lately, that injecting a littlehumor into it wouldn't hurt anything. Most of you know Billie, my significant other. She's a dandy, for sure, buta little slow on the uptake sometimes and I guess being around me, thingsare rubbing off some and she's getting a little dangerous. So here's alittle story on her... have a good laugh at her expense... she certainly hasone at mine from time to time and it ain't gonna kill her... Billie bought a new house right before we went to Montana for the FFFConclave, and upon returning, she started moving in. Being raised a countrygirl, she always keeps a firearm for protection, but also being little MissSafety Police, she NEVER keeps it loaded. Keeps the ammo close at hand,butNEVER in the gun. The gun she has is an older model single shot 12 guageshotgun. One of the old H&R's with an exposed hammer. Not the prettiestthing in the world, but an effective tool if someone is entering your homewith bad intentions.When Billie moved this gun from her old house to her new house, she justsimply laid the unloaded gun on the back of the truck seat, behind her headand hauled it to the new house. She took it out and put it in her closetcorner ( a big walkin closet ) so that it would be out of the way. Well,as more stuff got moved into the house (and this woman has more stuffthananyone I've ever seen) the gun and some other items she needed got coveredup in the corner of the closet.Needless to say, the thing you need the most is always in the deepestcorner of a place like the closet, and sure enough, there was something inthe corner with the gun that she needed... matter of fact, it was behind thegun, which was behind the clothes, which was behind this big cedar wardrobething she owns (kinda like a closet inside the closet.... I never didunderstand that) Anyways, she's trying to get to that "something" that shereally didn't need out of the corner of the closet, so she has to move hershotgun, her UNLOADED shotgun, of course, out of the way. She grabs it bythe forestock, but can't get it out, so she lowers her grip to the triggerguard... grabs it with her finger through the trigger guard on the trigger.Somewhere in the trip from behind the clothes and the wardrobe, thehammergets cocked. So, she has it in her hand, finger on trigger and is backingout of the closet like Ma Barker backing out of a bank after a holdup. Asshe's backing up, she hits her elbow on the door jam and KABLOOOOOOM...nothing but ringing ears and pieces of cotton floating around in the closet.She had it pointed just about high enough to blow holes through 4 pairs ofnew Lawman Jeans hanging side by side. Blew the ass out of the back ofthemand the zippers out of the front. Believe it or not, the zipper side of the4th pair actually stopped the shot and almost all of it fell straight downinto a pair of her Justin boots, not harming the boots, of course. Firstthing she does is calls me laughing, and yelling on the phone. She'syelling because she can't hear after shooting a 12 ga in the closet..."HONEY, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE WHAT I JUST DID!" Anyways, I had togoover and inspect the damage, and sure enough, she had killed 4 pairs withone shot... got em all, dead in the ass. One thing I did learn, if you'regoing to get in a gunfight, wear a minimum of 4 pairs of jeans and youshould be pretty safe from 00 buckshot at 6 feet! Later,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from bamboorods@saber.net Wed Oct 31 18:11:19 2001 fA10BFa18699 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:11:16 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:11:18 - Subject: Payne 208 taper Does anyone have the 208 taper available? Contact me off-list, please.Chris Does anyone have the 208 taper = Contact me off-list, please.Chris from harms1@pa.net Wed Oct 31 18:37:29 2001 fA10bTa19550 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:37:29 - Subject: Re: reading stress curves....... Mark, Learn all you can from the fellows on the list, but do NOT allow a limitedunderstanding of things like "stress curves" delay the building process.Several of the guys have suggested good 7-foot rods to begin with. ANY ONEof those rods will delight you, I promise, and none will be the last rod youbuild. Get to work on your first rod. Pick a card, any card. But get started. Youcan continue your reading as you log in the experience, but no amount ofreading and talking can substitute for the experience of building. Stresscurves are extremely helpful, but only for those with the experience to knowwhat they might suggest in terms of one's own casting preferences. ForTHAT, you need to have built and cast some rods. Again, get to the planingforms and build your first rod. And then your next. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: reading stress curves....... I'm in the process of building my first rod. I'm going into selecting ataper blind because the selection of rods for me to cast is very limited, so I have to make the best guess on choosing a taper that will fit my fishingstyle. I would like to learn more about interpreting stress curves. HarryBoyd gave me a broad interpretation on them, Identifyng a curve that relates to a fast rod and one that's parobolic. Thanks Harry! I would like to learn them in more detail though. I need help interpreting the following .. andhow these graphs relate to rod action and feel. 1) Amplitude of tip stress. I see some rods go as high as 250 and some 150. What does this mean.2) Duration of max amplitude of tip stress. Some are short lived only at 1or 2 stations and others go half way down rod.3) How is progressive taper read, are there different types? I see some rods like garrison continue horizontal while others have ~ 45 degree negativeslope.. How are these actions different?4) what about line wt. Can you look at a taper and stress curve to helpdetermine the best weight for the rod. I like them slightly overloaded ie. 5) What about modifying a taper... Anything that would help me turn stress data/taper into rod action feelwould be greatly appreciated! I want to build.... but I need that companion rod, that I like very much to help me keep going...... Thank you all for the help, you guys have been great! Mark from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 19:08:53 2001 fA118pa20696 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:08:52 - ([209.178.135.124] helo=g2t8c9) id 15z6Lp-0002Qr-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:08:57 -0800 Subject: Re: Guild Terry, An in depth class on how to flip a switch may be in order. LOLI think in the guild you would be given the title " The Duke of plane nomore"Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Guild Harry,I promised myself that I would never plane another piece of bamboo so that lets me out of rodmaking lessons.Now, if you need a "heavy" to lean on those substandard makers then I'm your man?Terry Harry Boyd wrote: "T. Ackland" wrote: That's great, who will design the coat of arms and the ceremonialcostumes?I would like to suggest a steaming pile of horse shit and crossed rods Just kidding, Sounds great to me Terry. Thanks for volunteering to design the logo. The Guild needs all the help it can get. Would you like me to put you in touch with the Guild Officers? Perhaps you could also help me lead the class for beginning rodmakers at the Conclave in January 2002. Just a thought,Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed Oct 31 20:05:29 2001 fA125Ra23227 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:05:28 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108Netscape6/6.0 Subject: Re: You can't get there from here John, Actually, they didn't need centers, once the templates were made theonly difference between one model rod and the next model was the starting point of the template (for curve) and the setting of the multiplier (for thickness). With one template for butt and mid, and one for tips, you had an infinite number of rod tapers available.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ channer wrote: Yep, and Payne's and Leonards machines both used 3" centers.John from robertgkope@home.com Wed Oct 31 20:29:06 2001 fA12T5a24643 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:29:06 - femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: Re: In search of taper for rod Amen. My first rod and still one of my favorites - and I don't care if Idid steal the taper.(Actually, the source is annotated on the rod). -- Robert Kope----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: In search of taper for rod Wayne's Sir D. from Troutgetter@aol.com Wed Oct 31 20:55:21 2001 fA12tKa26017 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:55:20 - Subject: Re: Guild Great, Just what I need! Another bunch of people telling me "I'm doing it wrong."Hmm, maybe I am.Mike from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Oct 31 21:13:23 2001 [161.130.112.185] (may be forged)) fA13DMa27006 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:13:22 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:13:25 -0600 Subject: RE: Sharing /using tapers without this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. There is really very little new in the world of tapers from what I've seen.No living rod maker could possibly be making a usable bamboo rod that(whether he knows it or not) isn't the same as, or a relatively minorvariation on, a taper used by one of the rodmakers who have gone to the bigworkshop in the sky. It's a bit like the idea of inventing a "new" troutfly. Unless you're using a newly available material you can bet someone hasdone it before, whether or not he tried to put his name on it. At most itwould be a slightly different combination of old features. Of course oneshould acknowledge, if asked, where the taper for a given rod came from,butto treat the tapers of living rodmakers as though they were originalinventions or works of art is pretentious. IMHO, of course. Barry 0DocumentEmail T=here isreally very little new in the world of tapers from what I’ve =seen. No livingrod maker could possibly be making a usable bamboo rod that (whether he =knowsit or not) isn’t the same as, or a relatively minor variation on, =a taper used It’s abit like the idea of inventing a “new” trout fly. Unless =you’re using a newlyavailable material you can bet someone has done it before, whether or =not hetried to put his name on it. At most it would be a slightly differentcombination of old features. Of course one should acknowledge, if =asked, wherethe taper for a given rod came from, but to treat the tapers of livingrodmakers as though they were original inventions or works of art is =pretentious.IMHO, of course. B=arry from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 31 21:13:35 2001 fA13DXa27017 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:13:34 - Subject: Re: copying your tapers Just to clarify here, I was aiming for 1/1000 but never expecting to actually achieve it. The idea being it's better to aim for and At 01:22 PM 10/31/01 -0500, Todd Talsma wrote: Something just popped into my head. If we are so concerned about this,I remember a few years ago Tony Young was striving to get within1/1000th of a measurement. If anyone is hitting their measurments righton, I haven't heard about it. I certainly know that I wouldn't be ableto hit it. Then, there was some discussion about how much is added tothe measurements because of the glue that is used. Do we know how muchthe glue used on these tapers accounts for? Are the strips perfect 60*triangles? Was there a little imperfection here, a little imperfectionthere in each rod? If the strips were milled, did any of the stripsslip during machining? Whoops, I left it in the heat treating oven toolong, or was that not long enough. I wet planed this batch of strips,is that going to affect anything? The possibilities are endless. I think there are way too many variables in all rods, bothmass-manufactured and hand-planed that to get a consistant result thatsomeone can say that your directly infringing on anyone elses work.After all, we're working with a natural fiber here with inherantproblems. Tim Wilhelm wrote: Harry, Let me throw a twist in here. I'm sorry that I don't remember who made them but you cast the two rods based on the Martha Marie taper. One youlikedbetter than the other. As I recall the difference was that one of themhadan extra guide. Did you also cast the original of the Martha Marie that was there and how did it compare to the other two? I guess my question would be, if you had made those two rods would youcredit PHY on the blanks considering there was that much difference toyoubetween them? And were they anywhere at all similar to the original made by PHY? What I am getting out of this thread is that if I go out to make a Replicaof someone else's rod, I need to give credit where it is due. If I plan tomake a rod that Resembles someone else's rod, then I don't think I'll labelthe rod as such. Tapers may be the starting point or backbone of therodbut overall action and castability is affected by # of guides, guideplacement, varnish thickness, heat treatment and all the other variablesthat we deal with. I can't make your rods, Nunley's, PHY's or anyoneelse's. As I see it, the best anyone can do is only mimic them and that issomething different than making a duplicate. Of course this is from the guy who built a rod that the only similarity with the original is that they are both two piece rods. ;^))) Regards,Tim ----- Original Message -----From: "Harry Boyd" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:44 PMSubject: Re: copying your tapers Doug, Reed, and others, You've really made me think about this. I guess I'm naive, but I honestly never thought about using the "Payne 101 taper" as a marketing gimmick. I started signing my rods that way out of a sincere respect for thosewho have gone before. That's the absolute truth. The question arises whether or not I will change what I do. Chances are not good that I'll quit crediting the originators. I'd never use a taper that someone who developed it didn't want me to use. I remember a linefromGarrison saying that he was primarily a rod designer, and a builder second. Well, I'm just the opposite. For the most part I use tapers others havedeveloped, tweaked here and there, smoothed out a little, with the tipsincreased or decreased a little, and so on. But I don't have the inclination to sit with graph paper and pencil, or hexrod, or any of the other tools, and design original tapers. So I'll keep on crediting those who do, not as amarketing ploy, but out of respect. Harry "Douglas P. Easton" wrote: The bottom line, I think is that using another rod maker's name(PAYNE 102 taper) to sell a product comes very close to trademarkinfringement- particularly when the maker or his successors is still active. Unfortunately the cost of bringing a damage suit against someone who engages inthispractice is prohibitive. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 31 21:18:36 2001 fA13IZa27703 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:18:35 - Subject: Re: copying your tapers Pushed something and the email went a bit early sorry,what I wanted to write is:Just to clarify here, I think it's better to aim for 1/1000 and miss than to work within certain tolerances. I don't really think it matters that much in the long run apart from trying to repeat rods of your own livery. Tony At 01:22 PM 10/31/01 -0500, Todd Talsma wrote: Something just popped into my head. If we are so concerned about this,I remember a few years ago Tony Young was striving to get within1/1000th of a measurement. If anyone is hitting their measurments righton, I haven't heard about it. I certainly know that I wouldn't be ableto hit it. Then, there was some discussion about how much is added tothe measurements because of the glue that is used. Do we know how muchthe glue used on these tapers accounts for? Are the strips perfect 60*triangles? Was there a little imperfection here, a little imperfectionthere in each rod? If the strips were milled, did any of the stripsslip during machining? Whoops, I left it in the heat treating oven toolong, or was that not long enough. I wet planed this batch of strips,is that going to affect anything? The possibilities are endless. I think there are way too many variables in all rods, bothmass-manufactured and hand-planed that to get a consistant result thatsomeone can say that your directly infringing on anyone elses work.After all, we're working with a natural fiber here with inherantproblems. Tim Wilhelm wrote: /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Oct 31 21:25:16 2001 fA13PDa28276 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:25:14 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:25:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Guild MikeThe way I see it,if you only put your name on rods you make ,how can you go wrong?:))Stick to that and you'll be OK every time.Who can dispute that?You made it, you signed it.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Mike if you only put your name on rods you make , Stick to that and you'll be OK every time.Who can dispute that?You made it, you signed it.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 31 21:42:50 2001 fA13gna29168 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:42:49 - "Rod Makers \(E-mail\)" Subject: RE: copying your tapers I was asked to make 2 Driggs by two different people and three more by one person who was going to use them as presentation gifts. The guy with the gifts was more interested in looks than use. I had the forms set up for Driggs so that's what I used.Made the fishing rods as well as I could, made the toys as well as I saw fit meaning the strips were as close as you needed but were a bit wide of the mark in both under and over dimensions. Put them all together, finished them all in the same way then cast them. Every one of them was a Driggs to cast but none absolutely identical. Typical blind wine tasting stuff.I had a favorite which was one of the fishing rods but one of the toys wasn't bad either. They were all fine to cast however.If you micd them you could probably say some were not really Driggs so if you wanted you could possibly say they were different rods but they didn't really cast that way. None were out by more than 15/1000 in the case ofthe toys but they were all over the place.This is why I have come to think that while planing to as close as possible to the taper is the way to go it's no real problem if you don't if all you're after is a good fishing rod, starting with a decent taper for the job and keeping as close as possible to the taper will get you a good rod.If you want repeatable results because you're making rods to sell you need to be more accurate and then possibly not even for casting reasons but because there are people out there, collectors mainly who mic the rod and want it to mic accurately or at least evenly. Tony At 02:39 PM 10/31/01 -0500, Peter Van Schaack wrote: Has anyone made two, three, four or more rods that are exactly identical intaper, weight, length, kept all the variables un-varied, moisture content,length of heat treatment, time to cool, glue thickness, controlled thegrowth in a naturally grown plant so there a no variances in power fibers - from what I have been reading is there are too many variables to maketworods exactly perfectly identical, cast exactly the same, close yes, but notthe same. Proven tapers are just that, they work within the confines of all thevariables.I would give credit where credit is due, if you build a rod based on a taperlet it be known. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 31 21:51:23 2001 fA13pMa29737 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:51:22 - Subject: Re: Killer Billie and the Shotgun--NOT rodmaking, but funny... Only in America [:-)] Tony At 05:19 PM 10/31/01 -0600, Bob Nunley wrote: OK, I just had to finish telling this story to one list member that heardpart of it, but not all of it at the Southern Council Conclave, and Ithought as serious as the list had been lately, that injecting a littlehumor into it wouldn't hurt anything. Most of you know Billie, my significant other. She's a dandy, for sure, buta little slow on the uptake sometimes and I guess being around me, thingsare rubbing off some and she's getting a little dangerous. So here's alittle story on her... have a good laugh at her expense... she certainly hasone at mine from time to time and it ain't gonna kill her... Billie bought a new house right before we went to Montana for the FFFConclave, and upon returning, she started moving in. Being raised a countrygirl, she always keeps a firearm for protection, but also being little MissSafety Police, she NEVER keeps it loaded. Keeps the ammo close at hand,butNEVER in the gun. The gun she has is an older model single shot 12 guageshotgun. One of the old H&R's with an exposed hammer. Not the prettiestthing in the world, but an effective tool if someone is entering your homewith bad intentions.When Billie moved this gun from her old house to her new house, she justsimply laid the unloaded gun on the back of the truck seat, behind her headand hauled it to the new house. She took it out and put it in her closetcorner ( a big walkin closet ) so that it would be out of the way. Well,as more stuff got moved into the house (and this woman has more stuffthananyone I've ever seen) the gun and some other items she needed gotcoveredup in the corner of the closet.Needless to say, the thing you need the most is always in the deepestcorner of a place like the closet, and sure enough, there was something inthe corner with the gun that she needed... matter of fact, it was behind thegun, which was behind the clothes, which was behind this big cedar wardrobething she owns (kinda like a closet inside the closet.... I never didunderstand that) Anyways, she's trying to get to that "something" that shereally didn't need out of the corner of the closet, so she has to move hershotgun, her UNLOADED shotgun, of course, out of the way. She grabs it bythe forestock, but can't get it out, so she lowers her grip to the triggerguard... grabs it with her finger through the trigger guard on the trigger.Somewhere in the trip from behind the clothes and the wardrobe, thehammergets cocked. So, she has it in her hand, finger on trigger and is backingout of the closet like Ma Barker backing out of a bank after a holdup. Asshe's backing up, she hits her elbow on the door jam and KABLOOOOOOM...nothing but ringing ears and pieces of cotton floating around in the closet.She had it pointed just about high enough to blow holes through 4 pairs ofnew Lawman Jeans hanging side by side. Blew the ass out of the back ofthemand the zippers out of the front. Believe it or not, the zipper side of the4th pair actually stopped the shot and almost all of it fell straight downinto a pair of her Justin boots, not harming the boots, of course. Firstthing she does is calls me laughing, and yelling on the phone. She'syelling because she can't hear after shooting a 12 ga in the closet..."HONEY, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE WHAT I JUST DID!" Anyways, I hadto goover and inspect the damage, and sure enough, she had killed 4 pairs withone shot... got em all, dead in the ass. One thing I did learn, if you'regoing to get in a gunfight, wear a minimum of 4 pairs of jeans and youshould be pretty safe from 00 buckshot at 6 feet! Later,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 21:54:08 2001 fA13s8a00113 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:54:08 - ([209.178.135.237] helo=g2t8c9) id 15z8vl-0002YT-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:54:14 -0800 Subject: B.S. in rodmaking We have been told we need a shovel to get through all the crap in making abamboo rod. So lets hear it! I mean I hear a lot of B.S. on the list but itusually has nothing to do with making rods. What are the top ten myths and bull crap in making a cane rod. Here is my contribution - Nodes are the weakest part of the culm. They may be the softest part butthey are not weak NEXT! Adam from richjez@enteract.com Wed Oct 31 22:08:51 2001 fA148na01000 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:08:49 - Subject: RE: copying your tapers --=====================_16213743==_.ALT Tony, what are the dimensions of this engine, I want to make one! Rich At 05:49 AM 10/31/01, Tony Young wrote: OK, we start off with a u beaut fast motor. The same used by the winner of formula 1. It's the 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine.When it's going great because it's properly "Tuned To Win" as the title goes it's the engine to get if you want to go fast. Every man and his dog wants this engine because it really goes but it's a bit dicky to keep tuned, still good if it's not quite right but there is something the winning team is doing that you can't quite work out, but you can get it close so it's still pretty good. It's still the 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine but not quite as good as the winner of the formula 1. You know that because the name is right there on the manifold.The designer has done his job well but the team is not quite up to it. A little further down the water trough of racing circles is a small operation, they cut tread in cast off tyers with razor blades, always on the scrounge for spare nuts and bolts, put banana skins in the dif to keep it going, that sort of thing but guess what engine they have? Yep, it's the 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine, says so right there on the manifold. These guys run the motor with the same plugs they did last race, only change the oil every third race and forgot when they last replaced the fan belt. I wonder who wins most often?Now, my point is. Is it the designer of the 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine or the racing team when the team doesn't win presuming the driver doesn't wind up against the wall or blows a gearbox or something? Is it the designer or maker who has made a lousy job of a good taper?It's the maker and if a person looking at a badly executed rod thinks it's a pretty poor excuse for a rod he'll think it's the maker, not the designer. I mean who'd be stupid enough to waste time making a rod based on a rotten taper? You really can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear no matter what.Not naming the taper designer is sort of implying the taper is your own. Just because you think you are not worthy of penning the designer's name on the rod or haven't completely followed the exact same processesdoesn't matter because a lot of classic tapers could be made in a very wide variation of ways and still be excellent, in fact IMHO the thing that has made certain tapers classics is the wide latitude the taper can vary by and still be recognizable as the taper in question. If the engine is a 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine it'll say so on the manifold, it should be so on rods too. Tony At 09:03 PM 10/30/01 -0800, Martin Jensen wrote: Personally, If I copy a taper from another designer I acknowledge it inthe name. I built a taper of the Payne 102 rod a while back. My taperwas so far off that all I said when someone ask what taper it was, wasthat it was "inspired" by Payne. The following one I call a Payne 102copy, as it is fairly close to the measurements that I have for thisrod. Personally, if I hold a taper to within .005 or a designer, I willacknowledge that it is that persons taper. I doubt that you could tellthe difference between tapers if you were within .005. Maybe if everymeasurement was .005 off you could tell... Usually it is the occasionalmeasurement that is off. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 8:30 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: copying your tapers I think I'd like to share an incident that occured almost 18 monthsago. I sent a quad to a friend of mine who wanted to cast it. While he had it, another rodmaker who is more or a less a beginner measuredthe dimensions without my permission. Within two months, that makerwas selling that rod on the internet. I think that this incident hasmade me much less forthcoming with information. Keep in mind that the taper took 14 attempts and 3 years of development ( trial and error)to get it just right. I think that this was just pure theft. There isno excuse for it. I remember well when I started in rodmaking almost twenty years ago thatnone of the professional rod makers ( Kusse, Carpenter, Kustin) wouldgive a beginner the time of day - let alone what glue to use or how toadjust a binder. Rod making lore was held very tight to the vest.Perhaps these makers had the same experience that I did. I think, at the very least, a maker using a taper from another shouldgive the designer credit for his work. I would be a good thing if we could continue to keep the kind of freeexchange of information that Wayne C. established some years ago. I notsure that we can do this if there is a continual "lifting" (withoutaknowlegement) of others' work. JohnZ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ --=====================_16213743==_.ALT Tony, what are the dimensions of this engine, I want to make Rich At 05:49 AM 10/31/01, Tony Young wrote:OK, we start off with a u beaut fast motor.The same used by the winner of formula 1. It's the 440 Super Boss BigBlock Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine.When it's going great because it's properly "Tuned To Win" asthe title goes it's the engine to get if you want to go fast. Every man and his dog wants this engine because it really goes but it's abit dicky to keep tuned, still good if it's not quite right but there issomething the winning team is doing that you can't quite work out, butyou can get it close so it's still pretty good. It's still the 440 SuperBoss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine but not quite as goodas the winner of the formula 1. You know that because the name is rightthere on the manifold.The designer has done his job well but the team is not quite up toit. A little further down the water trough of racing circles is a smalloperation, they cut tread in cast off tyers with razor blades, always onthe scrounge for spare nuts and bolts, put banana skins in the dif tokeep it going, that sort of thing but guess what engine they have? Yep,it's the 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine,says so right there on the manifold. These guys run the motor with thesame plugs they did last race, only change the oil every third race andforgot when they last replaced the fan belt. I wonder who wins most often?Now, my point is. Is it the designer of the 440 Super Boss Big BlockHemisecular Slaughter House Engine or the racing team when the teamdoesn't win presuming the driver doesn't wind up against the wall orblows a gearbox or something? Is it the designer or maker who has made a lousy job of a goodtaper?It's the maker and if a person looking at a badly executed rod thinksit's a pretty poor excuse for a rod he'll think it's the maker, not thedesigner. I mean who'd be stupid enough to waste time making a rod based ear no matter what.Not naming the taper designer is sort of implying the taper is your own.Just because you think you are not worthy of penning the designer's nameon the rod or haven't completely followed the exact same processesdoesn't matter because a lot of classic tapers could be made in a verywide variation of ways and still be excellent, in fact IMHO the thingthat has made certain tapers classics is the wide latitude the taper canvary by and still be recognizable as the taper in question. If the engine is a 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter HouseEngine it'll say so on the manifold, it should be so on rods too. Tony At 09:03 PM 10/30/01 -0800, Martin Jensen wrote:Personally, If I copy a taper from anotherdesigner I acknowledge it inthe name. I built a taper of the Payne 102 rod a while back. Mytaperwas so far off that all I said when someone ask what taper it was,wasthat it was "inspired" by Payne. The following one I call aPayne 102copy, as it is fairly close to the measurements that I have for thisrod. Personally, if I hold a taper to within .005 or a designer, Iwillacknowledge that it is that persons taper. I doubt that you couldtellthe difference between tapers if you were within .005. Maybe ifeverymeasurement was .005 off you could tell... Usually it is theoccasionalmeasurement that is off. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of J. C. Zimny Subject: Re: copying your tapers months he measured maker has the error) is I remember well when I started in rodmaking almost twenty years agothatnone of the professional rod makers ( Kusse, Carpenter, Kustin)wouldgive a beginner the time of day - let alone what glue to use or howtoadjust a binder. Rod making lore was held very tight to the vest.Perhaps these makers had the same experience that I did. I think, at the very least, a maker using a taper from anothershouldgive the designer credit for his work. I would be a good thing if we could continue to keep the kind offreeexchange of information that Wayne C. established some years ago. Inotsure that we can do this if there is a continual "lifting"(withoutaknowlegement) of others' work. JohnZ/*************************************************************************/AV Young www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ --=====================_16213743==_.ALT-- from richjez@enteract.com Wed Oct 31 22:09:36 2001 fA149Za01203 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:09:36 - Subject: Re: schools and world knowledge warning! rant! --=====================_16214048==_.ALT If a teacher can undo the moral teachings of the parents, I question how good the parents teaching was in the first place.Rich Jezioro At 07:58 AM 10/31/01, T. Ackland wrote: I can remember when I was at school we were taught religious instruction which cameas standard to all schools and it was difficult to modify. The Morality instructionthe children receive now often reflects the teachers own personal slant on morality.Children are very easy to manipulate and I think we must be careful on the type ofeducation we give them.I cannot see the difference between a young boy being propositioned by an old pervertin the park (we all have) and being taught the benefits of being gay at school.Terry Marty D. aka "none wrote: It's very difficult (but not impossible)to instill morality in your children when the teachers , school(public school) and media for that matter have suchaliberal (anti- Christain)agenda. Marty Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/29/01 11:20:53 AM Central Standard Time,pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us writes: involved, raise your children - Educate them. >> Yey yes yes! THAT was MY point. The problem is not ENTIRELY the schools. They get beat up over it. But PARENTS need to be responsible for their kids! Schools were forced to take up responsibility for kids when parentsabandoned the job! If you want to have your kids to be "model citizens"THEN BE ONE YOURSELF! THAT is easy!mark --=====================_16214048==_.ALT If a teacher can undo the moral teachings of the parents, Iquestion how good the parents teaching was in the first place.Rich Jezioro At 07:58 AM 10/31/01, T. Ackland wrote:I can remember when I was at school we weretaught religious instruction which cameas standard to all schools and it was difficult to modify. The Moralityinstructionthe children receive now often reflects the teachers own personal slanton morality.Children are very easy to manipulate and I think we must be careful onthe type ofeducation we give them.I cannot see the difference between a young boy being propositioned by anold pervertin the park (we all have) and being taught the benefits of being gay atschool.Terry Marty D. aka "none wrote: children when such a Time, picture - Get is not ENTIRELY the schools. responsible for their kids! when parents "model citizens" --=====================_16214048==_.ALT-- from richjez@enteract.com Wed Oct 31 22:09:39 2001 fA149ca01219 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:09:38 - Subject: Re:Forms --=====================_16214094==_.ALT Tony, when you consider the variation of the bamboo from culm to culm, different heat treating, node work or nodeless, different glues, and finishes, it seems that a strip that you made and one that I made, though dimensionally identical, might make different performing rods.Rich Jezioro At 08:14 AM 10/31/01, Tony Miller wrote: BobSince I play the guitar I see where your going.But is it not true that many songs do have the same notes in the same order? only to be changed by one single note at the end of a measure or chorus to make the song different?also in a musical composition you are limited by only time.Music can also be affected by things like timing, Dynamics,and a whole other list of things.i.e. if you play the same song on a guitar , most certainly it will not sound exactly like when I play it.But if you put a strip of bamboo in a set forms and plane it and I do the same in the same set of forms what are the odds it will come out the same. Well I almost guarantee we will come up with two strips that will match.very hard to compare musical composition with planning a strips.It is pretty hard to crescendo a bamboo strip. Unless you compare a taper to gradually louder.:))Music is a true art ,and while making a rod is true art ,planning a strip is better compared to craftsmanship.Best regardsTony Miller www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html --=====================_16214094==_.ALT Tony, when you consider the variation of the bamboo fromculm to culm, different heat treating, node work or nodeless, differentglues, and finishes, it seems that a strip that you made and one that Imade, though dimensionally identical, might make different performingrods.Rich Jezioro At 08:14 AM 10/31/01, Tony Miller wrote:BobSince I play the guitar I see where your going. same order? only to be changed by one single note at the end of a measureor chorus to make the song different?also in a musical composition you are limited by only time. whole other list of things. not sound exactly like when I play it.But if you put a strip of bamboo in a set forms and plane it and I do thesame in the same set of forms what are the odds it will come out thesame. Well I almost guarantee we will come up with two strips that willmatch.very hard to compare musical composition with planning a strips.It is pretty hard to crescendo a bamboo strip. Unless you compare a taperto gradually louder.:))Music is a true art ,and while making a rod is true art ,planning a stripis better compared to craftsmanship.Best regards Tony Miller www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html --=====================_16214094==_.ALT-- from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Wed Oct 31 22:36:59 2001 fA14awa02786 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:36:59 - Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:36:56 -0800 Thu, 01 Nov 2001 04:36:56 GMT Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmaking FILETIME=[D69A7790:01C1628E] Adam: nodes being the softest part of the culm. Try taking a strip and break it bamboo rods I've seen, I can't remember one being broken at a node. I'm surethat there has to be some rods that have broken at the node, but none I'veseen. Input please? crap in making a the list but it rod. softest part but Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 22:45:54 2001 fA14jra03336 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:45:53 - ([209.178.135.237] helo=g2t8c9) id 15z9jq-0005Ah-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:45:58 -0800 Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmaking Jim, No, there is a difference between "soft" and "weak". I said the nodes =being weak is B.S. . But as to them being softness part of the cane this =is true and was tested and published in Milwards book. I to have test =them and they are less resilient then internodes area. One of the =reasons nodes are not the first area to break is because it is not as =ridged. This in one reason they are staggered to try to keep the rod = from taking a set. But then again we all know that. Adam Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmaking Adam: Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with your statement about nodes =being the softest part of the culm. Try taking a strip and break it =intentionally, haven't ever seen one break at a node as of yet and I've =broken dozens of leftover scrap pieces. Of all the broken bamboo rods =I've seen, I can't remember one being broken at a node. I'm sure that =there has to be some rods that have broken at the node, but none I've =seen. Input please? Jim We have been told we need a shovel to get through all the crap in = bamboo rod. So lets hear it! I mean I hear a lot of B.S. on the list = Nodes are the weakest part of the culm. They may be the softest part = -------------------------------------------------------------------------=-----Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Jim, No, there is a difference between = internodes area. One of the reasons nodes are not the first area to = because it is not as ridged. This in one reason they are staggered to = keep the rod from taking a set. But then again we all know =that. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Bureau Sent: Thursday, November 01, = AMSubject: Re: B.S. in =rodmaking Adam: bamboo rods I've seen, I can't remember one being broken at a node. = that there has to be some rods that have broken at the node, but none = seen. Input please?= Jim = Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Oct 31 23:08:08 2001 fA1588a03978 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:08:08 - for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:08:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Forms RichI would say you are correct:))but you missed my point. planing is just a mechanical function that is completely different from = So if you played the same song on the same guitar ,the skill level could =determine the out come.but if we use the same culm, the same heat treat, the same forms,so on a so forth, we will come to the same conclusion. Your strip will =be just like mine. please keep in mind I said strip, not rod.Planing is far removed from the ( high skill to achieve competency =level) where a guitar is another story.As splitcane rod makers, I'm sure someone will try to say that there is =alot of skill needed to plane ,but I'd say not as much as they think.:)) =I compare it to putting something in a mold.Remember I said strips, not the rod.And that's what I was talking about strips.:))Same dimensions, same results Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Rich but you missed my point.My point was if we used the same exact everything, that planing is just a mechanical function that is completely different = So if you played the same song on the same guitar ,the skill level = determine the out come.but if we use the same culm, the same heat treat, the same =forms,so on a so forth, we will come to the same conclusion. Your strip = level) where a guitar is another story. And that's what I was talking about strips.:))Same dimensions, same resultsBest regards Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from bamboorods@saber.net Wed Oct 31 23:08:48 2001 fA158ia04051 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:08:45 - for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:08:46 - Subject: Hal Bacon Would you contact me off-list please?TIA,Chris Hal, please?TIA,Chris