from CALucker@aol.com Thu Nov 1 00:18:10 2001 fA16IAa05965 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:18:10 -0600 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:17:59 -0500 Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmaking How about the gem: "You need to taper both sides of a strip." Chris Lucker from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Nov 1 00:49:29 2001 fA16nSa06938 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:49:28 -0600 ([209.178.135.237] helo=g2t8c9) id 15zBfR-00013N-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:49:33 -0800 Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmaking Hi Chris, How was Hot Creek? Could you please clarify a little on "You need to taperboth sides of a strip." Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmaking How about the gem: "You need to taper both sides of a strip." Chris Lucker from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Nov 1 00:59:49 2001 fA16xma07360 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:59:48 -0600 ([209.178.135.237] helo=g2t8c9) id 15zBpS-0006bh-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:59:54 -0800 Subject: Powell tapers Are Waltons tapers in the archives taken from rods that were hollow built? Adam from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Nov 1 01:48:48 2001 fA17mja08634 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:48:45 -0600 , Subject: RE: copying your tapers Too late, it was only made at the car plant that up stakes and pulled out two weeks ago. Try the new plant in Burkina Faso (that'll try out you're kids geography) , they work for peanuts there sleep at the plant. Tony At 07:13 PM 10/31/01 -0600, Rich Jezioro wrote: Tony, what are the dimensions of this engine, I want to make one! Rich At 05:49 AM 10/31/01, Tony Young wrote: OK, we start off with a u beaut fast motor. The same used by the winner of formula 1. It's the 440 Super Boss Big Block Hemisecular Slaughter House Engine.When it's going great because it's properly "Tuned To Win" as the title goes it's the engine to get if you want to go fast. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from petermckean@netspace.net.au Thu Nov 1 04:16:55 2001 fA1AGsa10253 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:16:54 -0600 fA1AGpn93061 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:16:51 +1100 Subject: T Ackland - Guild The point, of course, is that while Ackland may say "Just kidding", he'snot! There is a great tradition here in Australia of what we call "stirring", theterm being a shortened form of "Sh*t stirring". When you're stirring, youcan, with some impunity, insult in horrendous fashion those you are with.There is a great cultural admiration for stirrers who are imaginative andcreative in their form of insult, and for those who can carry it out with abit of style; most of the barriers are down when stirring is going on. Agood stirrer can get away with bloody near anything. The catch is this : a "good stirrer" ALWAYS likes the people he is stirring,and is ALWAYS liked by them in return; he is usually very clever andcreative, and MEANS NO REAL MALICE at any time. You actually have to EARNthe respect of your fellows before you can stir. It's good natured horseplay. Australians and New Zealanders stir each otherall the time; they can do this because they really have a deep mutual likingand respect one for the other. I think that an outsider who really insulteda Kiwi to an Australian would probably get a smack in the mouth for histrouble. Oh, I forgot the other rule of stirring, which is absolutely invariable -you never stir anyone who is not there and able to stir back. In this country, a person who failed to meet the requirements would not beregarded as a "stirrer". He would be considered just another loudmouth witha swelled head and a bad disposition. Fill your days with good stuff Peter from harms1@pa.net Thu Nov 1 06:43:55 2001 fA1Chsa11602 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 06:43:54 -0600 Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmaking Jim, I believe you're correct. Many of us have observed the same thing. A stripof cane, flexed to the point of breaking, will rarely(if ever) break at the node. So, I do not believe that nodes are weaker than the surrounding, straightfibers. What I DO believe, however, is that nodes are different in SOMEsignificant way from the rest of the cane. The flexing characteristics of straight and uniform fibers are interruptedperiodically by whatever the nodes may be Andthat is reason enough to develop good staggering practices. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmaking Adam: Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with your statement about nodes being the softest part of the culm. Try taking a strip and break it intentionally,haven't ever seen one break at a node as of yet and I've broken dozens ofleftover scrap pieces. Of all the broken bamboo rods I've seen, I can'tremember one being broken at a node. I'm sure that there has to be somerodsthat have broken at the node, but none I've seen. Input please? Jim From: "Adam Vigil" Subject: B.S. in rodmakingDate: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:54:57 -0800 We have been told we need a shovel to get through all the crap in making a bamboo rod. So lets hear it! I mean I hear a lot of B.S. on the list but it usually has nothing to do with making rods. What are the top ten myths and bull crap in making a cane rod. Here is my contribution - Nodes are the weakest part of the culm. They may be the softest partbutthey are not weak NEXT! Adam -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Thu Nov 1 07:08:34 2001 fA1D8Xa12195 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:08:33 -0600 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:08:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Killer Billie and the Shotgun--NOT rodmaking, but funny... Bob, ROFLMAO..... I can remember once when my brothers and I were kids. Mom and Dad hadn't gotten home from work yet, so we were all in our living room. My next younger brother had a Remington 22 Magnum rifle that he'd just gotten a couple of weeks before, and had been out plinking cans in the field next to our house. He finished up the box of shells and had come back into the house. He sat down with his bottle of Hoppe's #9, a bunch of swabs, and the rest of his cleaning materials. My youngest brother and I were across the living room on the couch, wrestling around and watching TV. He set the butt stock of the gun on the floor, with the barrel of the gun straight up between his knees, pointing at the ceiling. He had his cleaning materials set up on the floor around his feet, and as he bent over to pick up one of the cleaning tools, some how or another he hit the trigger - Kaboom! My youngest brother and I sat there in astonishment looking at my middle brother, who was looking up at the ceiling. There was a nice 1/4" hole right above where he was sitting. Being a 22 Magnum, I figured, the plaster wouldn't stop the bullet. So we all crawled up into the attic, found the hole in the ceiling. Looked straight above it, and sure enough, another 1/4" hole in the roof. Now my middle brother was in a state of panic. Mom and Dad were due home in less than an hour, and we had two holes in the house. We scrambled around, found some duct tape and putty, and stuffed and tapedthe hole in the roof from the inside. Now the quandry was, what do we do about the hole in the ceiling in the living room? Quick thinkers us, we grabbed the tube of Colgate, and filled the hole. The only other problem was the smell of gun smoke in the living room. Not normally a problem, but it was pretty darned cold outside. So we opened up all the doors and windows in the house, turned on a couple of fans, froze our butts off for about 30 minutes, sprayed almost a can of air freshener, and got rid of the smell. Mom and Dad came home a little later, wondering why the house was a bit chilly, but didn't notice much else. In fact they didn't find out about it until almost 4 or 5 years later, when we were all sitting in the living room one night watching TV, when the toothpaste plug finally dried out enough so it wouldn't stick in the hole and fell right into my Mom's lap. Try and explain that one to your parents.......... Mark At 05:19 PM 10/31/2001 -0600, you wrote: OK, I just had to finish telling this story to one list member that heardpart of it, but not all of it at the Southern Council Conclave, and Ithought as serious as the list had been lately, that injecting a littlehumor into it wouldn't hurt anything. Most of you know Billie, my significant other. She's a dandy, for sure, buta little slow on the uptake sometimes and I guess being around me, thingsare rubbing off some and she's getting a little dangerous. So here's alittle story on her... have a good laugh at her expense... she certainly hasone at mine from time to time and it ain't gonna kill her... Billie bought a new house right before we went to Montana for the FFFConclave, and upon returning, she started moving in. Being raised a countrygirl, she always keeps a firearm for protection, but also being little MissSafety Police, she NEVER keeps it loaded. Keeps the ammo close at hand,butNEVER in the gun. The gun she has is an older model single shot 12 guageshotgun. One of the old H&R's with an exposed hammer. Not the prettiestthing in the world, but an effective tool if someone is entering your homewith bad intentions.When Billie moved this gun from her old house to her new house, she justsimply laid the unloaded gun on the back of the truck seat, behind her headand hauled it to the new house. She took it out and put it in her closetcorner ( a big walkin closet ) so that it would be out of the way. Well,as more stuff got moved into the house (and this woman has more stuffthananyone I've ever seen) the gun and some other items she needed gotcoveredup in the corner of the closet.Needless to say, the thing you need the most is always in the deepestcorner of a place like the closet, and sure enough, there was something inthe corner with the gun that she needed... matter of fact, it was behind thegun, which was behind the clothes, which was behind this big cedar wardrobething she owns (kinda like a closet inside the closet.... I never didunderstand that) Anyways, she's trying to get to that "something" that shereally didn't need out of the corner of the closet, so she has to move hershotgun, her UNLOADED shotgun, of course, out of the way. She grabs it bythe forestock, but can't get it out, so she lowers her grip to the triggerguard... grabs it with her finger through the trigger guard on the trigger.Somewhere in the trip from behind the clothes and the wardrobe, thehammergets cocked. So, she has it in her hand, finger on trigger and is backingout of the closet like Ma Barker backing out of a bank after a holdup. Asshe's backing up, she hits her elbow on the door jam and KABLOOOOOOM...nothing but ringing ears and pieces of cotton floating around in the closet.She had it pointed just about high enough to blow holes through 4 pairs ofnew Lawman Jeans hanging side by side. Blew the ass out of the back ofthemand the zippers out of the front. Believe it or not, the zipper side of the4th pair actually stopped the shot and almost all of it fell straight downinto a pair of her Justin boots, not harming the boots, of course. Firstthing she does is calls me laughing, and yelling on the phone. She'syelling because she can't hear after shooting a 12 ga in the closet..."HONEY, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE WHAT I JUST DID!" Anyways, I hadto goover and inspect the damage, and sure enough, she had killed 4 pairs withone shot... got em all, dead in the ass. One thing I did learn, if you'regoing to get in a gunfight, wear a minimum of 4 pairs of jeans and youshould be pretty safe from 00 buckshot at 6 feet! Later,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm from grnmtrods@outdrs.net Thu Nov 1 07:21:29 2001 fA1DLSa12748 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:21:28 -0600 Subject: killer Billie Just when I think I've heard everything ,along comes Bob Nunley. Another great chapter in this wonderful book on bamboo rod building!I =think if he authored a book ,it would probably hit the best seller list. =Along side of the likes of,maybe, Patrick McManus. Bob ,is ther really something to living on Tulsa time? Or is it in the =water? Just when I think I've heard everything= comes Bob Nunley. Another great chapter in this wonderful= bamboo rod building!I think if he authored a book ,it would probably hit = McManus. Bob ,is ther really something to living = time? Or is it in the water? from Dkenney94@cs.com Thu Nov 1 07:27:21 2001 fA1DRKa13075 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:27:20 -0600 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:27:16 -0500 Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmakers I don't know if I would call it bull**** but when I started building rods I was driven crazy by some rodmakers who were Engineers, all that technical advice drove me crazy, was mostly crap, and was definitally NOT helpful. Heres just some of the stuff I heard: 1. Epoxy is the only sensible glue choice (God Bless URAC)2. Garrison was all wrong.3. In order to understand rodmaking you must understand stress curves,and the mathematical principles involved. (Someone should mention that to Leonard, Payne, Gillum, Jordan, Dickerson, Young, etc.)4. Garrison Binder is a bad design5. Garrison was a genius Dave was driven crazy by some rodmakers who were Engineers, all that technicaladvice drove me crazy, was mostly crap, and was definitally NOT helpful.Heres just some of the stuff I heard: sensible glue choice (God Bless URAC) wrong. understand rodmaking you must understand stress curves,and themathematical principles involved. (Someone should mention that to Leonard,Payne, Gillum, Jordan, Dickerson, Young, etc.) a bad design genius from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Thu Nov 1 07:34:30 2001 fA1DYTa13426 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:34:29 -0600 "bamboo" Subject: Re: killer Billie Must be something about Oklahoma women. My uncle was in the Navy in WW 2 and was stationed in Oklahoma of all =places. Anyway, he met a girl from there and they maried and after the =war, he got a job on Long Island, NY at a research laboratory. His =business would take him on the road from time to time. This one time, =he finished up and headed home a few days earlier than expected and =thought that he'd surprise his wife. He came in late at night to =surprise her. Well, she had grown up on a ranch and was well versed in firearms of all =sorts and her practice was to sleep with a loaded shotgun beside her =when he was away. He opened the bedroom door and BAMMM!!!!! Luckily, =he had heard the click as she pulled the hammer back and dived out of =the way. Needless to say, they went shopping for a new bedroom door! John K Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:24 AMSubject: killer Billie Just when I think I've heard everything ,along comes Bob Nunley. Another great chapter in this wonderful book on bamboo rod building!I =think if he authored a book ,it would probably hit the best seller list. =Along side of the likes of,maybe, Patrick McManus. Bob ,is ther really something to living on Tulsa time? Or is it in the =water? women. My uncle was in the Navy in WW 2 and = night to surprise her. Well, she had grown up on a ranch and = versed in firearms of all sorts and her practice was to sleep with a = bedroom door! John K ----- Original Message ----- christman Sent: Thursday, November 01, = AMSubject: killer Billie Just when I think I've heard = comes Bob Nunley. Another great chapter in this = bamboo rod building!I think if he authored a book ,it would probably = McManus. Bob ,is ther really something to = time? Or is it in thewater? from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Nov 1 07:37:33 2001 fA1DbWa13714 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:37:32 -0600 Subject: Re: T Ackland - Guild Pete is making a point here and is a bit tense like a few on list right now but he's really very friendly. If you're ever around him get a few beers into him and ask to tell you about the day he kidney punched a "mate" twice his size and told him to move out of the way of the bar. Don't be drinking when he tells it though. Tony At 09:16 PM 11/1/01 +1100, Peter McKean wrote: The point, of course, is that while Ackland may say "Just kidding", he'snot! The catch is this : a "good stirrer" ALWAYS likes the people he is stirring,and is ALWAYS liked by them in return; he is usually very clever andcreative, and MEANS NO REAL MALICE at any time. You actually have toEARNthe respect of your fellows before you can stir. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from eamlee@email.msn.com Thu Nov 1 07:53:58 2001 fA1Drva14341 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:53:57 -0600 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 05:53:13 -0800 Subject: Culm Node Spacing Organization: Microsoft Corporation FILETIME=[8CBF9EE0:01C162DC] All-When I bought some cane from a rodmaker, he would take a measuring tapeandmeasure the culm between nodes-I think it was the distance between theuppertwo nodes. Then he would mark the culm. "This is good for a 7 1/2," or "Thiswill be great for a 8 1/2 ft 2 pc." I know I should have asked then, but Idid not. Do you folks keep a specific relationship between culm node spacing and rodlength/configuration, and if so what is it? Thanks,Eamon from eamlee@email.msn.com Thu Nov 1 07:53:58 2001 fA1Drva14343 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:53:58 -0600 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 05:53:15 -0800 Subject: Burl treatment for reelseats Organization: Microsoft Corporation FILETIME=[8DF7F7D0:01C162DC] I have found a steady source for pretty nice burls, curls and other gnarlypieces of wood and I would like to know how we treat this stuff. I hate tospend a ludicrous amount of money on reel seat fillers and they DO grow ontrees, so.....I have the killer pieces of wood, now what?Dry them for a year/inch?Wax log ends?Mill first, wax later?Rough it to 1"x1"x4" and dry it in a paper bag?What about Polyethylene Glycol and curing it "green"?What about acrylic stabilization?Should I nuke it? I have already consulted the wood turners/working list. Nice people, nicewood, nice bowls. I would like to know what RODMAKERS do with their gnarlypieces of wood. No puns, please! Thanks in advance,Eamon from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Nov 1 07:59:30 2001 fA1DxTa14935 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:59:29 -0600 Subject: Re: T Ackland - Guild Peter,if you take any of this stuff serously you have a slight problem. It is just abunch of guys wasting each others time. Do you think that the long threadaboutstealing tapers means anything in the real world and a hand plane?I may be an outsider but I am not a newcomer!Terry Peter McKean wrote: The point, of course, is that while Ackland may say "Just kidding", he'snot! There is a great tradition here in Australia of what we call "stirring", theterm being a shortened form of "Sh*t stirring". When you're stirring, youcan, with some impunity, insult in horrendous fashion those you are with.There is a great cultural admiration for stirrers who are imaginative andcreative in their form of insult, and for those who can carry it out with abit of style; most of the barriers are down when stirring is going on. Agood stirrer can get away with bloody near anything. The catch is this : a "good stirrer" ALWAYS likes the people he is stirring,and is ALWAYS liked by them in return; he is usually very clever andcreative, and MEANS NO REAL MALICE at any time. You actually have toEARNthe respect of your fellows before you can stir. It's good natured horseplay. Australians and New Zealanders stir eachotherall the time; they can do this because they really have a deep mutual likingand respect one for the other. I think that an outsider who really insulteda Kiwi to an Australian would probably get a smack in the mouth for histrouble. Oh, I forgot the other rule of stirring, which is absolutely invariable -you never stir anyone who is not there and able to stir back. In this country, a person who failed to meet the requirements would not beregarded as a "stirrer". He would be considered just another loudmouthwitha swelled head and a bad disposition. Fill your days with good stuff Peter from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Nov 1 08:15:18 2001 fA1EFHa15682 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:15:17 -0600 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:15:17 -0500 Subject: bs in rodmaking I blame all the bs on the all the rod making books that make scrapingand gluing up pieces of cane look impossible or at least more difficultthan it really is.Terry from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Thu Nov 1 08:17:33 2001 fA1EHWa16101 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:17:32 -0600 Subject: Glue! Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Nov 1 08:27:30 2001 fA1ERTa16870 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:27:29 -0600 (authenticated) Thu, 1 Nov 2001 06:27:14 -0800 Subject: Re: Glue! Peter, I like 1 hour epoxy for reel seats, and Urethane Bond for ferrules. I'duse the Ubond for reel seats too, if it didn't foam up and cause such a mess. Harry Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from LambersonW@missouri.edu Thu Nov 1 08:34:08 2001 fA1EY7a17346 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:34:07 -0600 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:34:11 -0600 "Rod Makers (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Glue! I use Probond polyurethane for ferrules. I've had no failures yet, althoughI did with the epoxy that I used previously. My reel seats are cork with a Garrison style cap and ring made integral withthe grip and glued with Titebond 2. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Subject: Glue! Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Nov 1 09:11:58 2001 fA1FBwa19148 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:11:58 -0600 ([209.178.134.237] helo=g2t8c9) id 15zJVj-0002mY-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:12:04 -0800 Subject: Re: Culm Node Spacing Eamon, Here is a post by M-D, hope it helps Here's one for you. I thought of this today as I was selecting a culm. Everwonder the minimum space between nodes you need to be able to use aChevy 6or a spiral node pattern, and still have maximum distance from the ferruleto the first node, and from the last node to the tip, on a two piece rod?All these assume a node spacing of 1.5", or 9" total, and you'll have onenode possibly under ferrule, and one possibly under tip. 7'0" rod -- 16.5" min. from the first node to the second, subsequent nodespacing will be greater7'6" rod -- 17.5" min. from the first node to the second, etc.8'0" rod -- 18.5" min. from the first node to the second, etc.8'6" rod -- 19.5" min. from the first node to the second, etc.9'0" rod -- 20.5" min. from the first node to the second, etc. M-D Do you folks keep a specific relationship between culm node spacing and rod length/configuration, and if so what is it? Thanks,Eamon from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Nov 1 09:28:37 2001 fA1FSba19988 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:28:37 -0600 fA1EqUg01399 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:52:30 -0600 Subject: Web page info Can anyone tell me of a web site that I candownload some fly images.I am not looking for real fishing flies.Need some fly images for making transfers to beput on some T shirts.Thanks, Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Nov 1 10:17:05 2001 fA1GH3a22548 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:17:04 -0600 Subject: Re: T Ackland - Guild Terry,I know people have asked but why _do_ you aggravate people on the list? I don't mean the obvious reason being it's fun, I mean what problem do _you_ have that makes you do this? If you carried on like this in the real world you'd get a punch in the nose sooner or later.I know you have a lot of knowledge and I know you can be helpful but why so mean spirited for the most part?Is it learned, genetic or were you dropped at some time in infancy? The other thing about people steeling tapers and it's not meaning anything is crap and you know it. You presumably have certain morals judging on the fact you don't like gays for example so it must be considered you are not completely unaware of what could be called a moral position on certain things and it's up to everybody to decide on where to draw the line.You draw it somewhere between gays and sheep duffers, others draw it atthe intellectual ownership or credit of tapers. Considering the number of makers and tapers being used and the number of people selling rods it should matter of consideration even though your Acklandship may not agree.I wont mention the sheep if you find something more original than the same old worn out saw.Keep in mind though your problem can be fixed but it's prescription only medicine and it's best taken without breaks or you may really loose it. Tony At 09:01 AM 11/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Peter,if you take any of this stuff serously you have a slight problem. It is just abunch of guys wasting each others time. Do you think that the long thread aboutstealing tapers means anything in the real world and a hand plane?I may be an outsider but I am not a newcomer!Terry Peter McKean wrote: The point, of course, is that while Ackland may say "Just kidding", he'snot! /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from ddeloach@pcisys.net Thu Nov 1 11:10:56 2001 fA1HAoa24990 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:10:50 -0600 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:10:46 -0700 env- from (ddeloach@pcisys.net) Subject: Re: T Ackland - Guild The cruel irony about Terry is that he claims to be so against inefficiencyand wasting time in the rob building craft...yet here he is doing just thatwith inane conversation every few months on rodmakers...he contributesnothing to and seeks nothing from the list....total inefficiency. in the immortal words of Jerry Jeff Walker, "Pissin' in the wind..." DD ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: T Ackland - Guild Pete is making a point here and is a bit tense like a few on list right now but he's really very friendly. If you're ever around him get a few beersinto him and ask to tell you about the day he kidney punched a "mate" twice his size and told him to move out of the way of the bar. Don't be drinkingwhen he tells it though. Tony At 09:16 PM 11/1/01 +1100, Peter McKean wrote: The point, of course, is that while Ackland may say "Just kidding", he'snot! The catch is this : a "good stirrer" ALWAYS likes the people he is stirring, and is ALWAYS liked by them in return; he is usually very clever andcreative, and MEANS NO REAL MALICE at any time. You actually have to EARN the respect of your fellows before you can stir. /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Thu Nov 1 11:26:12 2001 fA1HQBa25607 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:26:11 -0600 by direct-pest.com [208.27.26.103] for ; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:25:27 -0500 Subject: Re: T Ackland - Guild I thought I would never meet another Jerry Jeff Walker fan besides me. Don,you have good taste. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life".----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: T Ackland - Guild The cruel irony about Terry is that he claims to be so against inefficiency and wasting time in the rob building craft...yet here he is doing just that with inane conversation every few months on rodmakers...he contributesnothing to and seeks nothing from the list....total inefficiency. in the immortal words of Jerry Jeff Walker, "Pissin' in the wind..." DD ----- Original Message -----From: Tony Young Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 6:42 AMSubject: Re: T Ackland - Guild Pete is making a point here and is a bit tense like a few on list right now but he's really very friendly. If you're ever around him get a few beersinto him and ask to tell you about the day he kidney punched a "mate" twice his size and told him to move out of the way of the bar. Don't be drinking when he tells it though. Tony At 09:16 PM 11/1/01 +1100, Peter McKean wrote: The point, of course, is that while Ackland may say "Just kidding", he's not! The catch is this : a "good stirrer" ALWAYS likes the people he is stirring, and is ALWAYS liked by them in return; he is usually very clever andcreative, and MEANS NO REAL MALICE at any time. You actually have to EARN the respect of your fellows before you can stir. /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from briansr@point-net.com Thu Nov 1 12:23:08 2001 fA1IN7a28466 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:23:08 -0600 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:43:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Web page info TonyI might suggest Briant Freeman's excellent sitehttp://canadianthunder.com/enjoy Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Web page info Can anyone tell me of a web site that I candownload some fly images.I am not looking for real fishing flies.Need some fly images for making transfers to beput on some T shirts.Thanks, Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from cathcreek@hotmail.com Thu Nov 1 12:25:51 2001 fA1IPoa28775 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:25:50 -0600 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:25:44 -0800 Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:25:43 GMT petermckean@netspace.net.au Subject: Re: T Ackland - Guild FILETIME=[9E6F4020:01C16302] I think that Terry is getting exactly what he wants and that is for us to keep taking about this stuff (like I am dong now). While you may not agree with him, you have to give him credit for keeping at it. I know what to expect from him and I approach his posts that way. Back to rodmaking stuff-anyone every turn plexiglas for reelseat inserts? Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com From: Tony Young CC: rodmakers Subject: Re: T Ackland - GuildDate: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 00:22:06 +0800 Terry,I know people have asked but why _do_ you aggravate people on the list? Idon't mean the obvious reason being it's fun, I mean what problem do _you_have that makes you do this? If you carried on like this in the real worldyou'd get a punch in the nose sooner or later.I know you have a lot of knowledge and I know you can be helpful but why somean spirited for the most part?Is it learned, genetic or were you dropped at some time in infancy? _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from briansr@point-net.com Thu Nov 1 12:30:25 2001 fA1IUPa29247 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:30:25 -0600 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:51:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Web page info-OOOPPPSS TonyI should've writtenhttp://www.atlanticsalmonfly.com/The other site will get you here if you follow the links.You might beinterested in clicking on the fall 2001 pic and check out the jpgs of lastweeks fishing on the Margaree.One of the guys is 81 !!!!!Cheers Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Web page info Can anyone tell me of a web site that I candownload some fly images.I am not looking for real fishing flies.Need some fly images for making transfers to beput on some T shirts.Thanks, Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Nov 1 12:47:53 2001 fA1Ilqa00376 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:47:52 -0600 ([209.178.135.232] helo=g2t8c9) id 15zMsU-0002id-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:47:47 -0800 , Subject: Plexiglass reelseat Rob, I use to work a lot with plastics and they do look great. But they alsoscratch easy and over a period of time the U.V. does harden them and theytend to become brittle. Micarta though does look nice. Lots of variety Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Back to rodmaking stuff-anyone every turn plexiglas for reelseat inserts? Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com from jmpio@nhbm.com Thu Nov 1 12:51:21 2001 fA1IpKa00801 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:51:20 -0600 hexagon@odyssee.net, petermckean@netspace.net.au Subject: RE: Plexiglass reelseat If you're looking at plexiglass, you should also look at the turning blanksthat pen makers are using. All kinds of plastics, resins, colored woodlaminates. Lots of cool stuff that is actually designed for turning. -----Original Message----- petermckean@netspace.net.au Subject: Plexiglass reelseat Rob, I use to work a lot with plastics and they do look great. But they alsoscratch easy and over a period of time the U.V. does harden them and theytend to become brittle. Micarta though does look nice. Lots of variety Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Back to rodmaking stuff-anyone every turn plexiglas for reelseat inserts? Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Thu Nov 1 13:14:27 2001 fA1JEQa02867 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:14:26 -0600 LAA24982 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:13:06 -0800 LAA07994 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:14:14 -0800 fA1JEDI04987 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:14:13 -0800 (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:14:11 -0800 Subject: bamboo I just got back from Guangzhou (canton) china and while there saw numerousbuildings covered with bamboo scaffolding and when I asked what kind ofbamboo it was I was told it was tonkin cane. I GOT MOIST ON THE SPOT!!beautiful stuff 20' to 30' long and about 3" to 4" in diameter. got my handof a piece and shave the end with my pocket knife and the power fiber wasincredible. This stuff went up the outside of 20 story buildings and wastied together with thin strips of bamboo. In violin making luthiers learned a long time ago that there is no need forsecrets, no two pieces of wood are the same and no two builders can buildany instrument the same. Thousands of people have copied Strads but nonecould build any that sounded the same. Everybody knows all the dimensionsand the finish but no one can duplicate what he did. We can come close butclose only counts in horse shoe throwing and atom bomb dropping!! The sameholds true for rod making so there really isn't any need for secrets except never happen! Leonard was Leonard and I can only be Patrick! Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from harms1@pa.net Thu Nov 1 13:16:48 2001 fA1JGla03208 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:16:47 -0600 Subject: Re: Glue! Peter, I like URAC for the cane, Urethane Bond for the ferrules, and plain ol'yeller carpenter's glue for both cork and wood spacer. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Glue! Peter, I like 1 hour epoxy for reel seats, and Urethane Bond for ferrules. I'd use the Ubond for reel seats too, if it didn't foam up and cause such a mess. Harry Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats, ferrules etc. What glues do people like? -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Nov 1 13:18:26 2001 fA1JIQa03545 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:18:26 -0600 Subject: Re: T Ackland - Guild Tony,I do not want to get into a big argument over this but what we are doing isnotparticularly original rather traditional, we take the best of what has workedinthe past to produce a product that would be acceptable today.The ferrules are copies of earlier designs, many of the commercial reelseatsavailable are basically knock offs of T&T's stuff. It has all been done before.Whysuch a fuss over tapers when it would be the hardest to prove that theywerecopied.Its has already been said that it is impossible to copy old tapers in 5 in stepsanyway.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry,I know people have asked but why _do_ you aggravate people on the list? Idon't mean the obvious reason being it's fun, I mean what problem do_you_have that makes you do this? If you carried on like this in the real worldyou'd get a punch in the nose sooner or later.I know you have a lot of knowledge and I know you can be helpful but why somean spirited for the most part?Is it learned, genetic or were you dropped at some time in infancy? The other thing about people steeling tapers and it's not meaning anythingis crap and you know it. You presumably have certain morals judging on thefact you don't like gays for example so it must be considered you are notcompletely unaware of what could be called a moral position on certainthings and it's up to everybody to decide on where to draw the line.You draw it somewhere between gays and sheep duffers, others draw it attheintellectual ownership or credit of tapers. Considering the number ofmakers and tapers being used and the number of people selling rods itshould matter of consideration even though your Acklandship may notagree.I wont mention the sheep if you find something more original than the sameold worn out saw.Keep in mind though your problem can be fixed but it's prescription onlymedicine and it's best taken without breaks or you may really loose it. Tony At 09:01 AM 11/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Peter,if you take any of this stuff serously you have a slight problem. It is justabunch of guys wasting each others time. Do you think that the longthreadaboutstealing tapers means anything in the real world and a hand plane?I may be an outsider but I am not a newcomer!Terry Peter McKean wrote: The point, of course, is that while Ackland may say "Just kidding", he'snot! /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Nov 1 13:38:50 2001 fA1Jcna05359 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:38:49 -0600 Subject: Ackland Cronicles Fine Terry, but why the attitude? I mean you haven't been elected as the list prefect and while logic doesn't really need to come into it you on the one hand say none of this matters in the least because they're fishin poles not rockets and that's true but on the other your way is the only way that works which isn't what experience shows.It doesn't matter that the ferrules are the same, the bamboo is the same too, so what?You've been on and off list several times and while life is always more exciting when you are on you always seem to step across the line when it stops being fun and becomes a real drag. It's up to you of course but life would be a lot more fun if you made your comments with the crap especially when it's directed at specific people, that's pretty poor form really.If you wanted a rod that was not somewhat traditional why use bamboo at all? Graphite rods unless they are so thin they simply aren't well designed wearing in some ways in the field, I know if I drop one in the boat or trip over it may break but it's no big deal either so why not just drop bamboo and go for graphite, or start the come back of glass. As far as the fuss over tapers goes the issue is about giving credit where it's due. If the taper is recognised to have originated by a certain person so be it.If you sent some tapers or yours on list and I know you've been waiting to have that mentioned by the way so I'm not actually asking it's simply an example I'd credit you as the taper designer. Many wouldn't but I would and that's that. If it's not worth discussing tell us what is that isn't puerile. In any case, it's late and I'm off to home. Tony At 02:20 PM 11/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,I do not want to get into a big argument over this but what we are doing is notparticularly original rather traditional, we take the best of what has worked inthe past to produce a product that would be acceptable today.The ferrules are copies of earlier designs, many of the commercial reelseatsavailable are basically knock offs of T&T's stuff. It has all been done before. Whysuch a fuss over tapers when it would be the hardest to prove that theywerecopied.Its has already been said that it is impossible to copy old tapers in 5 in stepsanyway.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry,I know people have asked but why _do_ you aggravate people on the list?Idon't mean the obvious reason being it's fun, I mean what problem do_you_have that makes you do this? If you carried on like this in the real worldyou'd get a punch in the nose sooner or later.I know you have a lot of knowledge and I know you can be helpful but whysomean spirited for the most part?Is it learned, genetic or were you dropped at some time in infancy? The other thing about people steeling tapers and it's not meaninganythingis crap and you know it. You presumably have certain morals judging onthefact you don't like gays for example so it must be considered you are notcompletely unaware of what could be called a moral position on certainthings and it's up to everybody to decide on where to draw the line.You draw it somewhere between gays and sheep duffers, others draw itat theintellectual ownership or credit of tapers. Considering the number ofmakers and tapers being used and the number of people selling rods itshould matter of consideration even though your Acklandship may notagree.I wont mention the sheep if you find something more original than thesameold worn out saw.Keep in mind though your problem can be fixed but it's prescription onlymedicine and it's best taken without breaks or you may really loose it. Tony At 09:01 AM 11/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Peter,if you take any of this stuff serously you have a slight problem. It is just a bunch of guys wasting each others time. Do you think that the longthreadaboutstealing tapers means anything in the real world and a hand plane?I may be an outsider but I am not a newcomer!Terry Peter McKean wrote: The point, of course, is that while Ackland may say "Just kidding", he's not! /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Nov 1 14:00:50 2001 fA1K0oa06593 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:00:50 - OAA30398 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:00:53 Subject: Re: HTML One more note on HTML vs plain text email... When I make up the searchable archives every month, only plaintext messages make it to the database. HTML, attachments etc arediscarded. That's why some people's messages, when you pullthem up in the archives, are always blank.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thu Nov 1 14:22:26 2001 fA1KMLa08048 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:22:26 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:18:18 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Web page info Tony,you might be better off scanning some fly pictures or paintings,Web images are generally pretty small, low res images, useless for muchmore thanthe web or postage stamps.Speaking of nice images.... I got a nice book from the library of flyfishing pictures. I got it to scan to make images for my screen saverprogram. It isfilled with nice pictures of fly fishing from around the world. Now they makenicescreen savers on my computer ;^)The book is called "Casting Illusions" if anyone is interested, nocommercialinterest blah, blah, blah.Shawn Tony Spezio wrote: Can anyone tell me of a web site that I candownload some fly images.I am not looking for real fishing flies.Need some fly images for making transfers to beput on some T shirts.Thanks, Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Nov 1 14:24:53 2001 fA1KOqa08151 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:24:52 -0600 ([209.178.134.162] helo=g2t8c9) id 15zOOX-0004Cp-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:24:57 -0800 Subject: Re: bamboo Patrick, Well said. We all stand on the shoulders of Giants. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: bamboo . Thousands of people have copied Strads but nonecould build any that sounded the same. Everybody knows all the dimensionsand the finish but no one can duplicate what he did. We can come close butclose only counts in horse shoe throwing and atom bomb dropping!! Thesameholds true for rod making so there really isn't any need for secrets except will never happen! Leonard was Leonard and I can only be Patrick! Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Thu Nov 1 14:27:29 2001 fA1KRSa08339 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:27:28 -0600 ;Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:00:54 +0000 Subject: Re: Glue! Peter, This should be an interesting topic if you get any kind of reponses. Itdoesn't seem as though people have rodmaking on their minds on the listrecently. I suspect the answers will run the gamut. I use epon epoxy for my rodsquick set epoxt for reel seats and golf shafting epoxy for ferrules. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from caneman@clnk.com Thu Nov 1 14:54:19 2001 fA1KsIa10072 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:54:18 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Glue! I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shell hardener,however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reel seatsand Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reelseats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Thu Nov 1 15:31:10 2001 fA1LV9a12703 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:31:09 -0600 Subject: Re: Glue! Ok- come clean!!!! What are you using instead of the stock walnuthardener?????????????? I'm using Urac for the boo, and Probond for reel seats and ferrules. Harryhad mentioned the mess on rel seats using the Probond. I take somemaskingtape and tape it around the part of the reel seat that will be up to thecork. I actually make a "tunnel' out of it to hold the excess glue while itfoams. After it is dry, I trim it easy as pie. John K----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Glue! I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shell hardener,however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reel seatsand Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reelseats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from ajthramer@hotmail.com Thu Nov 1 15:41:02 2001 fA1Lf1a13455 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:41:01 -0600 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:40:55 -0800 Thu, 01 Nov 2001 21:40:55 GMT Subject: Re: Glue! FILETIME=[E3106B30:01C1631D] Urac, no walnut flour for the blank, ferrule-tite and a pin on the ferrules, fast set epoxy for the cork and fast set epoxy for the RS - the DLSB seats get a pin in the cap too. Pins in the ULTB seats on the steelhead and salmon rodsA.J. From: "Peter Van Schaack" Subject: Glue!Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:18:10 -0500 Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Nov 1 15:50:50 2001 fA1Looa14104 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:50:50 -0600 ([209.178.134.42] helo=g2t8c9) id 15zPji-00036f-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:50:54 -0800 Subject: Re: Glue! Bob, I have some Ferr-L-Tite do I have to use pins? AdamP.S. - I made some of your GOO! Pretty neat stuff.----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Glue! I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shell hardener,however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reel seatsand Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reelseats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from gjm80301@yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 16:02:45 2001 fA1M2ja15148 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:02:45 - Thu, 01 Nov 2001 14:02:51 PST Subject: Re: Glue! - Hijacked - nodeless glue? I use Epon on blanks and I'm about to try my first nodeless rod. Reading through the archives, it seems that most expericnecednodeless makers like Chris Bogart use Titebond II for the splices.What are the motivations for that? Is it mainly ease of use? WouldI have a problem (aside from mess and time) if I used Epon for thesplices and blank glue-up? Jerry --- Adam Vigil wrote: Bob, I have some Ferr-L-Tite do I have to use pins? AdamP.S. - I made some of your GOO! Pretty neat stuff.----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Nunley Cc: Rod Makers (E-mail) Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:47 PMSubject: Re: Glue! I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shell hardener, however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reel seats and Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from caneman@clnk.com Thu Nov 1 16:19:35 2001 fA1MJZa16313 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:19:35 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) "John Kenealy" Subject: Re: Glue! John,The stock hardener that comes with both URAC and Bordens version ofURACis nothing more than pulverized walnut shells mixed with a little AmmoniumChloride. The original use of URAC, if I remember correctly, was as anadhesive for Marine Grade plywoods. The walnut shell medium was used moreas a filler than anything else to fill voids between the laminations. Whenwe use it on a rod, there are no significant voids, so we don't need it.matter of fact, I found that it caused me a lot of heartache. John Channerfixed me up for the first time with the alternate hardner. (and thanksJohn... Glue lines are a thing of the past). What I do is mix the AmmoniumChloride 1:10 by weight with distilled water, then use that solution at 7%to the URAC. I have used it as heavy as 10%, but honestly 7% cures just aswell, as long as the temp is above 70Ÿ and the lower percentage gives mejust a little bit more working time.When you use it like this, the URAC is smoothe, creamy, easier to apply,easier to clean up and is about the appearance and the consistency of EagleBrand Milk. The big bonus is that you don't have to worry about that onelittle piece of walnut shell that didn't quite get powdered, ending upbetween two gluing surfaces and causing a glue line. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Glue! Ok- come clean!!!! What are you using instead of the stock walnuthardener?????????????? I'm using Urac for the boo, and Probond for reel seats and ferrules. Harry had mentioned the mess on rel seats using the Probond. I take some masking tape and tape it around the part of the reel seat that will be up to thecork. I actually make a "tunnel' out of it to hold the excess glue while it foams. After it is dry, I trim it easy as pie. John K----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" Cc: "Rod Makers (E-mail)" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:47 PMSubject: Re: Glue! I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shell hardener, however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reel seats and Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reelseats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from LambersonW@missouri.edu Thu Nov 1 16:20:13 2001 fA1MKDa16472 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:20:13 - (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:20:20 -0600 rodmakers Subject: RE: Glue! - Hijacked - nodeless glue? Titebond II is easy to use, grabs quickly, cleans-up easily and isn't verytoxic. Disadvantages are its perceived intolerance of heat, and lowerstrength than some other glues. Quite a number of splices (54?) have to bemade to construct the strips for a nodeless rod. Unless you have a largenumber of clamps, I use three small Pony spring clamps for each splice, youwill end up mixing many batches of glue. Al Medved and others useinexpensive spring binder clamps, which makes it more feasible to have alarge number of clamps, perhaps rendering the mixing issue moot. I have nothad good success keeping the joints aligned when clamping with them. Ialign the scarf joints by placing them enamel side down on a plate of glass,then apply the middle clamp, turn the joint over, straighten it ifnecessary, and apply the clamps on either side. Because of the weight ofclamps and the manipulations that I go through, I don't like to have morethan one joint clamped on a strip at a time, which necessitates distributingthe gluing sessions out over time. Titebond II makes this easy. If I usedresorcinol, my regular glue for sections, much mixing would be required. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Glue! - Hijacked - nodeless glue? I use Epon on blanks and I'm about to try my first nodeless rod. Reading through the archives, it seems that most expericnecednodeless makers like Chris Bogart use Titebond II for the splices.What are the motivations for that? Is it mainly ease of use? WouldI have a problem (aside from mess and time) if I used Epon for thesplices and blank glue-up? Jerry --- Adam Vigil wrote: Bob, I have some Ferr-L-Tite do I have to use pins? AdamP.S. - I made some of your GOO! Pretty neat stuff.----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Nunley Cc: Rod Makers (E-mail) Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:47 PMSubject: Re: Glue! I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shell hardener, however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reel seats and Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from "Marty D. aka \"none" Thu Nov 1 16:28:29 2001 fA1MSSa17223 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:28:29 -0600 v4.1.40/v4167. . Clean. Processed in 0.855664 secs); 01 Nov 200122:21:11 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmakers --------------9A9056CA12E4880E06D9E3D4 I would also call the biggest B.S. : computer generated designs andstress curves. Also the Garrison book which was entirely written byHoagy Carmichael I believe to make rodmaking seem more difficult than itis. Case in point, I have been involved in it for over 15 years andhave only met 1 person that failed at the craft and that is because of alack of love for it. Marty Dkenney94@cs.com wrote: I don't know if I would call it bull**** but when Istarted building rods I was driven crazy by some rodmakers who wereEngineers, all that technical advice drove me crazy, was mostly crap,and was definitally NOT helpful. Heres just some of the stuff I heard: 1. Epoxy is the only sensible glue choice (God BlessURAC)2. Garrison was all wrong.3. In order to understand rodmaking you mustunderstand stress curves,and the mathematical principles involved.(Someone should mention that to Leonard, Payne, Gillum, Jordan,Dickerson, Young, etc.)4. Garrison Binder is a bad design5. Garrison was a genius Dave --------------9A9056CA12E4880E06D9E3D4 I would also call the biggest B.S. : computer generated designs and stresscurves. Also the Garrison book which was entirely written by HoagyCarmichaelI believe to make rodmaking seem more difficult than it is. Case in point, person that failed at the craft and that is because of a lack of love for Dkenney94@cs.com wrote: I was driven crazy by some rodmakers who were Engineers, all that technicaladvice drove me crazy, was mostly crap, and was definitally NOT helpful.Heres just some of the stuff I heard: 1. Epoxy is the only sensible glue choice (God Bless URAC) 2. Garrison was all wrong. 3. In order to understand rodmaking you must understand stress curves,andthe mathematical principles involved. (Someone should mention that toLeonard,Payne, Gillum, Jordan, Dickerson, Young, etc.) 4. Garrison Binder is a bad design 5. Garrison was a genius Dave --------------9A9056CA12E4880E06D9E3D4-- from cathcreek@hotmail.com Thu Nov 1 16:35:19 2001 fA1MZIa17864 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:35:18 -0600 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:35:19 -0800 Thu, 01 Nov 2001 22:35:19 GMT Subject: Re: Glue! FILETIME=[7C9BF560:01C16325] Same for me on seats and ferrules (no pins though). Robert Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com From: "Bob Nunley" CC: "Rod Makers \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: Glue!Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:47:47 -0600 I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shell hardener,however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reel seatsand Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reelseats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from pcollin@rochester.rr.com Thu Nov 1 16:39:33 2001 fA1MdWa18369 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:39:32 -0600 fA1MdYF21385 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:39:34 -0500 Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmakers and have only met 1 person that failed at the craft and that is because = What do you mean by "failed at the craft"? His rods sucked? or they =fell apart while being cast for the first time? Heck, there is a well =known fisherman in my area who builds his own graphite rods. They are =so ugly that they are embarassing to look at. But the guy uses them =and loves them. So who is to say? Peter Collin and have only met 1 person that failed at the craft and that is = What do you mean by "failed at the = say? Collin from thogan@rochester.rr.com Thu Nov 1 16:39:59 2001 fA1Mdwa18479 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:39:58 -0600 fA1Me0h05620 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:40:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Glue! Bob -This is one of the best pieces of advice I have heard in a long time fromthis list.Thanks. I am curious as to where you buy Amonium Chrloride, and why do youmix it with distilled water?I am no "glue-ologist"Taylor----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Glue! John,The stock hardener that comes with both URAC and Bordens version ofURACis nothing more than pulverized walnut shells mixed with a little AmmoniumChloride. The original use of URAC, if I remember correctly, was as anadhesive for Marine Grade plywoods. The walnut shell medium was used moreas a filler than anything else to fill voids between the laminations. Whenwe use it on a rod, there are no significant voids, so we don't need it.matter of fact, I found that it caused me a lot of heartache. John Channerfixed me up for the first time with the alternate hardner. (and thanksJohn... Glue lines are a thing of the past). What I do is mix the AmmoniumChloride 1:10 by weight with distilled water, then use that solution at 7%to the URAC. I have used it as heavy as 10%, but honestly 7% cures just aswell, as long as the temp is above 70Ÿ and the lower percentage gives mejust a little bit more working time.When you use it like this, the URAC is smoothe, creamy, easier to apply,easier to clean up and is about the appearance and the consistency of EagleBrand Milk. The big bonus is that you don't have to worry about that onelittle piece of walnut shell that didn't quite get powdered, ending upbetween two gluing surfaces and causing a glue line. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Glue! Ok- come clean!!!! What are you using instead of the stock walnuthardener?????????????? I'm using Urac for the boo, and Probond for reel seats and ferrules. Harry had mentioned the mess on rel seats using the Probond. I take some masking tape and tape it around the part of the reel seat that will be up to thecork. I actually make a "tunnel' out of it to hold the excess glue while it foams. After it is dry, I trim it easy as pie. John K----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" Cc: "Rod Makers (E-mail)" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:47 PMSubject: Re: Glue! I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shell hardener, however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reel seats and Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reelseats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from "Marty D. aka \"none" Thu Nov 1 16:42:09 2001 fA1Mg8a18936 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:42:08 -0600 v4.1.40/v4167. . Clean. Processed in 0.472779 secs); 01 Nov 200122:34:45 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: Glue! I have been using Ferrule-Tite pinless for the last 6 years and have had only1failure which I atribute to a poor wood to metal fit. I figured Granger didn'tpin so I wasn't going to start. Marty Adam Vigil wrote: Bob, I have some Ferr-L-Tite do I have to use pins? AdamP.S. - I made some of your GOO! Pretty neat stuff.----- Original Message -----From: Bob Nunley Cc: Rod Makers (E-mail) Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:47 PMSubject: Re: Glue! I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shellhardener,however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reelseatsand Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reelseats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from "Marty D. aka \"none" Thu Nov 1 16:47:34 2001 fA1MlXa19384 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:47:33 -0600 (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4167. . Clean. Processed in 0.894261 secs); 01 Nov 200122:40:47 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: Glue! - Hijacked - nodeless glue? Is this the Titebond II water based wood glue? I recently tried Titebond IIExtend wood glue and loved it. No more URAC. Marty "Lamberson, William R." wrote: Titebond II is easy to use, grabs quickly, cleans-up easily and isn't verytoxic. Disadvantages are its perceived intolerance of heat, and lowerstrength than some other glues. Quite a number of splices (54?) have tobemade to construct the strips for a nodeless rod. Unless you have a largenumber of clamps, I use three small Pony spring clamps for each splice,youwill end up mixing many batches of glue. Al Medved and others useinexpensive spring binder clamps, which makes it more feasible to have alarge number of clamps, perhaps rendering the mixing issue moot. I havenothad good success keeping the joints aligned when clamping with them. Ialign the scarf joints by placing them enamel side down on a plate of glass,then apply the middle clamp, turn the joint over, straighten it ifnecessary, and apply the clamps on either side. Because of the weight ofclamps and the manipulations that I go through, I don't like to have morethan one joint clamped on a strip at a time, which necessitates distributingthe gluing sessions out over time. Titebond II makes this easy. If I usedresorcinol, my regular glue for sections, much mixing would be required. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 4:03 PM Subject: Re: Glue! - Hijacked - nodeless glue? I use Epon on blanks and I'm about to try my first nodeless rod.Reading through the archives, it seems that most expericnecednodeless makers like Chris Bogart use Titebond II for the splices.What are the motivations for that? Is it mainly ease of use? WouldI have a problem (aside from mess and time) if I used Epon for thesplices and blank glue-up? Jerry --- Adam Vigil wrote: Bob, I have some Ferr-L-Tite do I have to use pins? AdamP.S. - I made some of your GOO! Pretty neat stuff.----- Original Message -----From: Bob Nunley Cc: Rod Makers (E-mail) Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:47 PMSubject: Re: Glue! I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shell hardener, however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reel seats and Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.http://personals.yahoo.com from "Marty D. aka \"none" Thu Nov 1 16:51:14 2001 fA1MpDa19846 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:51:13 -0600 (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4167. . Clean. Processed in 0.746815 secs); 01 Nov 200122:43:54 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmakers --------------86587794AE8426047CE077ED What I mean by failed is that he told me he tried it and failed. I don'tthink he ever completed the "stick". Marty "Peter A. Collin" wrote: and have only met 1 person that failed at the craft and that isbecause of a lack of love for it. Marty What do you mean by "failed at the craft"? His rodssucked? or they fell apart while being cast for the firsttime? Heck, there is a well known fisherman in my area whobuilds his own graphite rods. They are so ugly that theyare embarassing to look at. But the guy uses them andloves them. So who is to say? Peter Collin --------------86587794AE8426047CE077ED What I mean by failed is that he told me he tried it and failed. I don't think he ever completed the "stick". Marty"Peter A. Collin" wrote: and have only met 1 person that failed What Collin --------------86587794AE8426047CE077ED-- from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Thu Nov 1 16:59:58 2001 fA1Mxva20519 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:59:57 -0600 "Rod Makers List Serve" Subject: Re: Glue! Thanks Bob, I'll try it out this winter! John K----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Glue! John,The stock hardener that comes with both URAC and Bordens version of URAC is nothing more than pulverized walnut shells mixed with a little AmmoniumChloride. The original use of URAC, if I remember correctly, was as anadhesive for Marine Grade plywoods. The walnut shell medium was usedmoreas a filler than anything else to fill voids between the laminations. When we use it on a rod, there are no significant voids, so we don't need it.matter of fact, I found that it caused me a lot of heartache. John Channer fixed me up for the first time with the alternate hardner. (and thanksJohn... Glue lines are a thing of the past). What I do is mix the Ammonium Chloride 1:10 by weight with distilled water, then use that solution at 7%to the URAC. I have used it as heavy as 10%, but honestly 7% cures just as well, as long as the temp is above 70Ÿ and the lower percentage gives mejust a little bit more working time.When you use it like this, the URAC is smoothe, creamy, easier to apply, easier to clean up and is about the appearance and the consistency of Eagle Brand Milk. The big bonus is that you don't have to worry about that onelittle piece of walnut shell that didn't quite get powdered, ending upbetween two gluing surfaces and causing a glue line. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm- ---- Original Message -----From: "John Kenealy" Cc: "Rod Makers (E-mail)" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:30 PMSubject: Re: Glue! Ok- come clean!!!! What are you using instead of the stock walnuthardener?????????????? I'm using Urac for the boo, and Probond for reel seats and ferrules. Harry had mentioned the mess on rel seats using the Probond. I take some masking tape and tape it around the part of the reel seat that will be up to thecork. I actually make a "tunnel' out of it to hold the excess glue while it foams. After it is dry, I trim it easy as pie. John K----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" Cc: "Rod Makers (E-mail)" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:47 PMSubject: Re: Glue! I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shell hardener, however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reel seats and Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from "Marty D. aka \"none" Thu Nov 1 17:00:54 2001 fA1N0ra20706 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:00:53 -0600 (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4167. . Clean. Processed in 0.243598 secs); 01 Nov 200122:24:31 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: Glue! I like 5 min. epoxy for seats and tip tops and Ferrule -tite (hot melt glue) Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from CALucker@aol.com Thu Nov 1 17:20:15 2001 fA1NKFa21658 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:20:15 -0600 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:20:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Glue! "I figured Granger didn'tpin so I wasn't going to start. Marty" Granger used white lead for ferrules.Chris "I figured Granger didn'tpin so I wasn't going to start. Marty" Granger used white lead for ferrules.Chris from JNL123141@msn.com Thu Nov 1 17:20:24 2001 fA1NKNa21693 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:20:23 -0600 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:20:21 -0800 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: Glue! - Hijacked - nodeless glue? FILETIME=[C6F96060:01C1632B] I've had real good luck with the following glues: Reel seats and tip to=ps, Flexcoat 5 min. epoxy; Cork rings, poly-urethane (Gorilla Glue) but s=eal the top and bottom rings with masking tape as the Gorilla glue foams =out or I will use Titebond II; Ferrules, Golf Smith Epoxy-the same stuff =they glue on the heads of golf clubs with. Good luck... --- had= ops, Flexcoat 5 min. epoxy; Cork rings, poly-urethane (Gorilla Glue) but =seal the top and bottom rings with masking tape as the Gorilla glue foams=out or I will use Titebond II; Ferrules, Golf Smith Epoxy-the same stuff= from piscator@macatawa.org Thu Nov 1 18:18:44 2001 fA20Iha23880 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:18:44 -0600 ,"RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: Glue! - Hijacked - nodeless glue? I like glue. Wouldn't build a rod without it. Technological marvel. =Hope it isn't patented. Brian patented. Brian from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Nov 1 18:18:46 2001 fA20Ija23886 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:18:45 -0600 Subject: Re: I forgot one In a message dated 10/30/1 11:45:53 PM, Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.comwrites: Hi Troy - Others have also noticed that casters at all levels seem to do a bit better with the spiral rods. It is no mystery. The spiral rods recover a bit faster than a comparable straight rod. Faster recovery = faster line speed = a longer cast. Since the rod is doing this regardless of the caster's technique, everyone from snake floggers to experts benefit to one extent or another. from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Nov 1 18:53:36 2001 fA20rZa25705 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:53:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Ackland Cronicles Tony,rod makers have been stealing each others tapers from day one. Who cansay with allhonesty who was the original designer of a particular taper even if it hasbeenattributed to a certain maker. The history of rodmaking is just full of storieslegends and half truths.I would have thought that every conceivable permutation of a good fishablerod hasalready been made so we could all be copying.I cannot see the big deal with borrowing tapers. My first rods were good oldGarrisons' (which I did mention) and I could not cast them as most guyscannot so Ibeefed them up to suit me.What should I have called my new tapers, modified Garrisons' or Acklandtapers? Icalled them a fast dryfly developed by me, is that wrong?I do not see how you can make tapers freely available and expect to havesomecontrol on how they are used.TerryYou have done this before Tony, jump in with both barrels when I reply to oneofyour countrymen. Tony Young wrote: Fine Terry, but why the attitude? I mean you haven't been elected as thelist prefect and while logic doesn't really need to come into it you on theone hand say none of this matters in the least because they're fishin polesnot rockets and that's true but on the other your way is the only way thatworks which isn't what experience shows.It doesn't matter that the ferrules are the same, the bamboo is the sametoo, so what?You've been on and off list several times and while life is always moreexciting when you are on you always seem to step across the line when itstops being fun and becomes a real drag. It's up to you of course but lifewould be a lot more fun if you made your comments with the crapespeciallywhen it's directed at specific people, that's pretty poor form really.If you wanted a rod that was not somewhat traditional why use bamboo atall? Graphite rods unless they are so thin they simply aren't well designed harderwearing in some ways in the field, I know if I drop one in the boat or tripover it may break but it's no big deal either so why not just drop bambooand go for graphite, or start the come back of glass. As far as the fuss over tapers goes the issue is about giving credit whereit's due. If the taper is recognised to have originated by a certain personso be it.If you sent some tapers or yours on list and I know you've been waiting tohave that mentioned by the way so I'm not actually asking it's simply anexample I'd credit you as the taper designer. Many wouldn't but I would andthat's that. If it's not worth discussing tell us what is that isn't puerile. In anycase, it's late and I'm off to home. Tony At 02:20 PM 11/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,I do not want to get into a big argument over this but what we are doingis notparticularly original rather traditional, we take the best of what hasworked inthe past to produce a product that would be acceptable today.The ferrules are copies of earlier designs, many of the commercial reelseatsavailable are basically knock offs of T&T's stuff. It has all been donebefore. Whysuch a fuss over tapers when it would be the hardest to prove that theywerecopied.Its has already been said that it is impossible to copy old tapers in 5 instepsanyway.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry,I know people have asked but why _do_ you aggravate people on thelist? Idon't mean the obvious reason being it's fun, I mean what problem do_you_have that makes you do this? If you carried on like this in the realworldyou'd get a punch in the nose sooner or later.I know you have a lot of knowledge and I know you can be helpful butwhy somean spirited for the most part?Is it learned, genetic or were you dropped at some time in infancy? The other thing about people steeling tapers and it's not meaninganythingis crap and you know it. You presumably have certain morals judging onthefact you don't like gays for example so it must be considered you arenotcompletely unaware of what could be called a moral position on certainthings and it's up to everybody to decide on where to draw the line.You draw it somewhere between gays and sheep duffers, others drawit at theintellectual ownership or credit of tapers. Considering the number ofmakers and tapers being used and the number of people selling rods itshould matter of consideration even though your Acklandship may notagree.I wont mention the sheep if you find something more original than thesameold worn out saw.Keep in mind though your problem can be fixed but it's prescription onlymedicine and it's best taken without breaks or you may really loose it. Tony At 09:01 AM 11/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Peter,if you take any of this stuff serously you have a slight problem. It is just a bunch of guys wasting each others time. Do you think that the longthreadaboutstealing tapers means anything in the real world and a hand plane?I may be an outsider but I am not a newcomer!Terry Peter McKean wrote: The point, of course, is that while Ackland may say "Just kidding", he's not! /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Nov 1 19:06:17 2001 fA216Ga26410 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:06:16 -0600 ([209.178.136.143] helo=g2t8c9) id 15zSlu-0000qI-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 17:05:23 -0800 Subject: Re: Ackland Cronicles Terry, Now that was a good answer Terry.Damn! did I say that? Adam Vigil Tony,rod makers have been stealing each others tapers from day one. Who cansay with all honesty who was the original designer of a particular taper even if it has been attributed to a certain maker. The history of rodmaking is just full of stories legends and half truths.I would have thought that every conceivable permutation of a good fishable rod has already been made so we could all be copying.I cannot see the big deal with borrowing tapers. My first rods were good old Garrisons' (which I did mention) and I could not cast them as most guys cannot so I beefed them up to suit me.What should I have called my new tapers, modified Garrisons' or Ackland tapers? I called them a fast dryfly developed by me, is that wrong?I do not see how you can make tapers freely available and expect to have some control on how they are used.TerryYou have done this before Tony, jump in with both barrels when I reply to one of your countrymen. from Dennishigham@cs.com Thu Nov 1 19:17:39 2001 fA21Hda27093 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:17:39 -0600 Subject: Re: Hollow Built Bill, Not me>>> I've never built a hollow built or an 8'5wt. However I have brought a Leonard 8', 5wt to some gatherings. It's (I think) a 2 piece model 50 custom built for George Mason one of the founders of T.U. Great rod but not my work. The taper is available to anyone who wants it. Your spelling is perfect!! Dennis from frank.haran@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 1 19:34:37 2001 fA21Yba28048 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:34:37 -0600 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:34:37 -0500 Subject: Garrison book I am still new to this game - getting the tools together. I have purchasedthe Cattanach book and video and have read and watched them a number oftimes. The other day I borrowed the Garrison/Carmichael book from thelibrary. On my first skimming the book seems to be quite heavy going. Arecent number of posts now suggest to me that I am wasting my time tryingtoabsorb the contents of this book. My question is am I waisting my time withthis book and should I avoid it because he makes the rod making process tocomplex? Cheers, Frank.-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmakers I would also call the biggest B.S. : computer generated designs and stresscurves. Also the Garrison book which was entirely written by HoagyCarmichael I believe to make rodmaking seem more difficult than it is. Casein point, I have been involved in it for over 15 years and have only met 1person that failed at the craft and that is because of a lack of love forit. Marty the Cattanach book and video and have read and watched them a number waisting my time with this book and should I avoid it because he makes = making process to complex? Cheers, Frank. "noneSent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:25 = Dkenney94@cs.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject:Re: = rodmakersI would also call the biggest B.S. : = generated designs and stress curves. Also the Garrison book which was = written by Hoagy Carmichael I believe to make rodmaking seem more = and have only met 1 person that failed at the craft and that is = from blitzenrods@yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 19:38:20 2001 fA21cJa28420 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:38:19 -0600 Thu, 01 Nov 2001 17:38:25 PST Subject: Scales I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, andfinished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Nov 1 19:44:43 2001 fA21iea28897 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:44:40 -0600 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:44:37 -0500 Subject: Re:Ackland Cronicals "All the finest people have arrived" :))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} The all mighty says "this must be a fashionable list" "All the finest people have arrived" :))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from bob@downandacross.com Thu Nov 1 19:45:36 2001 fA21jaa29104 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:45:36 -0600 Subject: RE: Scales I have the Ohaus Russ recommends, and I like it a lot. -----Original Message----- Subject: Scales I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, andfinished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from channer@frontier.net Thu Nov 1 19:48:13 2001 fA21mCa29433 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:48:12 -0600 Subject: Re: Garrison book Frank; don't make the mistake of thinking that because it is in a book it isthe word of God. Think for yourself, experiment with differenttechniques and tools, find the ways that make the most sense to you.john from channer@frontier.net Thu Nov 1 19:51:48 2001 fA21pla29807 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:51:47 -0600 Subject: Re: Scales Chris;Check out the housewares section at your local hardware emporium, youmight find a food scale that will do. I found a Cuisinart that isgraduated in 1/4 ounces( with enough space between graduations tointerpret finer) and grams, it goes up to 10 ounces and 300 some grams.John Chris McDowell wrote: I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, andfinished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from rmoon@ida.net Thu Nov 1 20:11:04 2001 fA22B3a01349 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:11:03 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: Garrison book Frank is easy wealthof material in Garrison that is not covered by all of the other "how to" guys does. Ralph Frank and Faith wrote: purchasedthe Cattanach book and video and have read and watched them a number of recent numberof posts now suggest to me that I am wasting my time trying to absorb the bookand should I avoid it because he makes the rod making process tocomplex? Cheers, Frank. -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of Marty D. aka "noneSent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmakers I would also call the biggest B.S. : computer generated designs and stresscurves. Also the Garrison book which was entirely written by HoagyCarmichaelI believe to make rodmaking seem more difficult than it is. Case in point, person Marty -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from ChristopherO@epicimaging.com Thu Nov 1 20:27:56 2001 fA22Rua02487 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:27:56 -0600 id ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:17:06 -0800 Subject: RE: Garrison book this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Regarding: " Also the Garrison book which was entirely written by Hoagy Carmichael Ibelieve to make rodmaking seem more difficult than it is." i've met with hoagy carmichael a couple of times now, cast rods made by hishands and by Mr. Garrison's, and examined examples of Mr. Carmichael'smachine work. All have been excellent examples of bamboo rod craft - hoagyis quite a talented machinist and rod maker in his own right. i've read the book three times cover to cover, each time gleaning new,meaningful information as my experience as a rodmaker changes andexpands. chris. Regarding: entirely written by Hoagy Carmichael I believe to make rodmaking seem more i've met with hoagy carmichael a couple oftimes now, cast rods made by his hands and by Mr. Garrison's, and examined excellent examples of bamboo rod craft - hoagy is quite a talented machinist androd maker in his own right. i've read the book three times cover tocover, each time gleaning new, meaningful information as my experience as a rodmaker changes and expands. chris. from teekay35@interlynx.net Thu Nov 1 20:35:14 2001 fA22ZDa03438 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:35:13 -0600 ,"John Kenealy" Subject: Re: Glue! You can get ammonium chloride from your neighborhood drugstore. They willprobably have to order it from their wholesaler, but this is usually lessthan week. My last 100 gram bottle cost me about $8.00 Cdn., or $5.50 US. from piscator@macatawa.org Thu Nov 1 20:41:43 2001 fA22fha04182 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:41:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Scales The new American Science and Surplus catalog has a good TBB and severalniceelectronic scales for around $100 and under. Brian from teekay35@interlynx.net Thu Nov 1 20:41:48 2001 fA22fla04207 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:41:47 -0600 ,"John Kenealy" Subject: Re: Glue! The URAC (in Canada its Casco Resin) that I use is obtained from a localveneer plywood manufacturer. They apply resin, then veneer, then place itin a heated platen press under pressure @ 250- 275 degrees F. for fourminutes, after which it is cured and ready. from cw@vanion.com Thu Nov 1 20:46:53 2001 fA22kqa05029 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:46:52 -0600 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:51:30 -0700 Subject: scales Check out Ebay under "scales". You can get a good idea of types of =scales available to fit your needs. I came across a Hanson 500g spring =scale at a yard sale for $2.50! No need to spend a lot of $ unless you =want high end. Check out Ebay under = get a good idea of types of scales available to fit your needs. I came = Hanson 500g spring scale at a yard sale for $2.50! No need to spend a = unless you want high end. from eamlee@email.msn.com Thu Nov 1 21:08:40 2001 fA238ea07289 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:08:40 -0600 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:07:56 -0800 Subject: Re:Scales Organization: Microsoft Corporation FILETIME=[91FDA220:01C1634B] Chris-I love my little crack dealer digital scale. Bought it at a head shopdowntown-$90. Measures in grams, grains, oz and cts.(?). It can handle up to100grams and converts to any of the other measurements with a click of abutton. I beleive they do sell them on ebay in big batches. They are clearplastic, sometimes dyed a color. Best part is if this rod making venturegoes sour, I can always sell........................just kiddin'!EamonSyracuse, NY from jojo@ipa.net Thu Nov 1 21:13:55 2001 fA23Dsa07878 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:13:54 -0600 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:13:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Equipment for making ferrules A Sherline is a large lathe compared to the one Onis Cogburn had at SRG. Itwas at least half the size of a Sherline, if not smaller. Damnedest thingyou ever saw. M-D I have a Sherline lathe. It was my first little lathe and also my last_little_ lathe. SNIP Tony from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Nov 1 21:15:09 2001 fA23F8a08015 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:15:08 -0600 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:15:11 -0500 Subject: Garrison book wanted Would anyone want to sell one of those worthless (big time sarcasm here) =Garrison books to me? since it is so useless and all.I'd love to take it off your hands. I'm sure you would not want much =seeing how the book makes a better leveler for a wobbly table.:))Seriously I want one. Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Would anyone want to sell one of those worthless (big time sarcasm = I'd love to take it off your hands. I'm sure you would not want = how the book makes a better leveler for a wobbly table.:))Seriously I want one.Contact me off list. Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from "Marty D. aka \"none" Thu Nov 1 21:15:18 2001 fA23FIa08030 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:15:18 -0600 (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4167. . Clean. Processed in 0.991187 secs); 02 Nov 200103:08:14 -0000 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Garrison book --------------E7DEAE9CE853ECD13177165F No, read the book but don't be intimidated by it. There is alot of infoin it . I just don't consider it the "bible". Marty Frank and Faith wrote: I am still new to this game - getting the tools together. I havepurchased the Cattanach book and video and have read and watched thema number of times. The other day I borrowed the Garrison/Carmichaelbook from the library. On my first skimming the book seems to bequite heavy going. A recent number of posts now suggest to me that Iam wasting my time trying to absorb the contents of this book. Myquestion is am I waisting my time with this book and should I avoid itbecause he makes the rod making process to complex?Cheers,Frank. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu D. aka "noneSent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmakers I would also call the biggest B.S. : computer generateddesigns and stress curves. Also the Garrison book which wasentirely written by Hoagy Carmichael I believe to makerodmaking seem more difficult than it is. Case in point, Ihave been involved in it for over 15 years and have onlymet 1 person that failed at the craft and that is because ofa lack of love for it. Marty --------------E7DEAE9CE853ECD13177165F No, read the book but don't be intimidated by it. There is alot of infoin it . I just don't consider it the "bible". MartyFrank and Faith wrote: purchasedthe Cattanach book and video and have read and watched them a number of am I waisting my time with this book and should I avoid it because he makesthe rod making process to complex?Cheers,Frank. -----OriginalMessage-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of Marty D. aka"noneSent: Thursday,November 01,2001 5:25 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: B.S. inrodmakers I would also call the biggest B.S. : computer generated designs and stresscurves. Also the Garrison book which was entirely written by HoagyCarmichaelI believe to make rodmaking seem more difficult than it is. Case in point, person that failed at the craft and that is because of a lack of love for --------------E7DEAE9CE853ECD13177165F-- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Nov 1 21:47:06 2001 fA23l4a10640 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:47:04 -0600 ,"John Kenealy" Subject: Re: Glue! fA23l5a10641 There are two UF glues I can get here in Aust and both work really well. One is made by Towns/Sellys but there has to be an equivalent everywhere and is a three part mix plus water making it a 4 part mix I guess. One is the resin, one a crystalline hardener and the other is melamine. You mix it up then add a little water and it makes the most amazing bond thatcompares well to resorcinol in boat use which is where I've used it mostly. It sets fast though.All this stuff comes in sealed tins and seems to last for ever on the shelf but deteriorates fast once opened. The other one is what Borden UK makes and only comes in a 2 part liquid. This is really nice to use because it's very easily measured and you can vary pot life by adjusting the amount of hardener used. If you can get the liquid give it go.I've asked Borden a few times by email to send me details and there doesn't seem to be anything on their site about it so I can't give any more detail.I keep this in the fridge and get about 12-18 months from it. I need to buy quite a lot of it so throw a lot out unfortunately but I do like it and it's great for general work. I can also get Cascomite which in this form is a white UF powder made from residue of skim milk production. It used to be called cold water glue because that's what you mix with it to make glue. It comes as a white powder and you basically mix it to what ever consistency looks good. I wouldn't use it in anything submerged for longer than a month or so but I built a dingy using it 4 years back, it sits unprotected from the elements and local kids, gets hauled around behind my sloop, dragged up and down the beach and generally treated like a red haired orphan and keeps on keeping on so it's not bad glue either.This is actually my general purpose glue most people would use PVA for. I like it because it's pretty cheap but strong and cures faster than PVA. It's more work to prepare than opening the top of a PVA bottle but mixing it isn't that bad.It wont bond at all to some rain forest timbers at all though oak etc is fine. I used it once to make splines from nodeless sections and it worked ok but was a lot of trouble later on at the straightening stage using Epon quickly during the Summers here even if I keep it all in a tub of iced water, once a thin layer is on the splines it starts setting up.If you ever wanted to make a large laminate I'd recommend this stuff. Tony At 04:13 PM 11/1/01 -0600, Bob Nunley wrote: John,The stock hardener that comes with both URAC and Bordens version ofURACis nothing more than pulverized walnut shells mixed with a little AmmoniumChloride. The original use of URAC, if I remember correctly, was as anadhesive for Marine Grade plywoods. The walnut shell medium was usedmoreas a filler than anything else to fill voids between the laminations. Whenwe use it on a rod, there are no significant voids, so we don't need it.matter of fact, I found that it caused me a lot of heartache. John Channerfixed me up for the first time with the alternate hardner. (and thanksJohn... Glue lines are a thing of the past). What I do is mix the AmmoniumChloride 1:10 by weight with distilled water, then use that solution at 7%to the URAC. I have used it as heavy as 10%, but honestly 7% cures just aswell, as long as the temp is above 70Ÿ and the lower percentage gives mejust a little bit more working time.When you use it like this, the URAC is smoothe, creamy, easier to apply,easier to clean up and is about the appearance and the consistency of EagleBrand Milk. The big bonus is that you don't have to worry about that onelittle piece of walnut shell that didn't quite get powdered, ending upbetween two gluing surfaces and causing a glue line. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm- ---- Original Message -----From: "John Kenealy" Cc: "Rod Makers (E-mail)" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:30 PMSubject: Re: Glue! Ok- come clean!!!! What are you using instead of the stock walnuthardener?????????????? I'm using Urac for the boo, and Probond for reel seats and ferrules. Harry had mentioned the mess on rel seats using the Probond. I take some masking tape and tape it around the part of the reel seat that will be up to thecork. I actually make a "tunnel' out of it to hold the excess glue while it foams. After it is dry, I trim it easy as pie. John K----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" Cc: "Rod Makers (E-mail)" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:47 PMSubject: Re: Glue! I use URAC on the rods (NOT with the stock crushed walnut shell hardener, however), TiteBond on the grips, slow cure 2 part epoxy on the reel seats and Ferr-L-Tite & pins on the ferrules. Bob Peter Van Schaack wrote: Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reelseats,ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from dnorl@qwest.net Thu Nov 1 22:39:25 2001 fA24dOa13675 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:39:24 -0600 (63.228.45.125) Subject: cap and ring Tony Larson has done it again! Copys of Leonard cap, ring and cork =checks of Nickel Silver. Jewelry store quality just like his bar stock =ferrules. Priced right also. Contact him at pumpkin10@prodigy.net (no =finacial interest)Dave Tony Larson has done it again!Copys = cap, ring and cork checks of Nickel Silver. Jewelry store quality just = finacial interest)Dave from CALucker@aol.com Thu Nov 1 22:44:36 2001 fA24iZa13802 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:44:35 -0600 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 23:43:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Garrison book You should get the Garrison book, by all means, but don't let it overwhelm you. Buy the Kreider book too -- just so you can have some perspective. Remember, Hoagy did not have a great deal of experience building rods whenhe wrote the book and made the documentary/ And, in Hoagy's defense -- notthat he needs defending -- he did not write the Garrison book as an expert rod builder. Hoagy made the movie and wrote the book as someone recording the details of how a guy built his rods.Chris Lucker from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Nov 1 23:25:48 2001 fA25Pja14924 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 23:25:46 -0600 Subject: Re: Ackland Cronicles Terry, Tony,rod makers have been stealing each others tapers from day one. Who cansay with allhonesty who was the original designer of a particular taper even if it has beenattributed to a certain maker. The history of rodmaking is just full of storieslegends and half truths. That's not actually the issue. The designer of the taper is either the true designer or the person who developed the taper the action of the rod is making. If the identity of the true originator is lost in the fog of bamboo war that's a shame but presumably the person who becomes known for the taper has improved it sufficiently for it to become a very popular rod action by way of also developing other similar tapers which are also popular so it wont just happen by mistake.I also rather think the actual tapers themselves would not be attributed incorrectly very often at all in fact.The Sir D is a taper that does prove what you say and is a bit unfortunate in a way but that probably only occurred due to the fast communications amonst a lot of people only recently possible.Still, I always thought the WC 7' #4 (Sir D) was closely related to the PHY rods and although I forget what Wayne wrote about it's development that guess was about right so it's not that hard to pick where the basis of the development came from. It obviously wasn't a Dickerson. I would have thought that every conceivable permutation of a good fishable rod hasalready been made so we could all be copying. I think so too, so all this argument I'm making is not self serving. I never plan on intentionally developing my own taper simply because I've found several I think are so good there is no point in my mind spending time doing it.Having said that you can't mistake a Driggs for a Payne 98 or a PM Midge with a PHY Midge etc. The actions are pretty obviously from certain stables.I've said it many times that IMHO you can vary quite a bit with the dimensions and still have a rod that is the action you're wanting, modifying a few numbers makes a different taper but not necessarily a new action in most cases.If you've altered the action you have a different rod.If on the other hand the action is similar the numbers may not agree but the rod is the basically the same. You can see that just by looking at all the different tapers used by the original makers themselves.They either thought the action was too close to the original to warrant a name change or wanted to sell the new taper based on the reputation of the original taper. Same difference in the end and it's THIS point I think is why the designer's name should be mentioned on a rod built to his/her design.It doesn't matter that it's not exactly the same, the action is what was desired and if it's built right that's what you'll have. I cannot see the big deal with borrowing tapers. My first rods were good oldGarrisons' (which I did mention) and I could not cast them as most guys cannot so Ibeefed them up to suit me.What should I have called my new tapers, modified Garrisons' or Ackland tapers? Icalled them a fast dryfly developed by me, is that wrong? You've quite obviously altered the action. If you can't cast the rod before altering the taper but like the action after changing the taper it's by definition a different action therefore not the same as the original and is an Ackland taper, no question about it. You haven't just added a brand to a cow to make it look like yours you've made your own branding iron and used it on your own cow to use a western movie example.If all you did was beef the butt a little but it's still the same action with less movement in the handle it's a modification. If you tie a Royal Coachman using a Timco hook then use a Mustad is it a different fly? I think not.What is it if you use purple rather than red in the body? Open for argument I guess, possibly. In fact there must be a fly with this and it's likely a different name.How about not only purple body but a deer hair wing? There is an obvious point of departure. I do not see how you can make tapers freely available and expect to havesomecontrol on how they are used. I have opinions and this is the place for these ones I have for a change but I'm no fascist, I don't approve of guilds and governing bodies and most certainly am not going to try to force my ideas upon anybody but I would debate it.You are right, you can't prevent people doing what they like with tapers, it's up to the conscience of each maker to do as he/she wishes. Exactly like what you do with trout you catch where you can take them but do/don't depending on the person. If you're making a rod to use who cares??? It's not an issue at all.IMHO it's not correct to use a living maker's taper if permission is not given and the rod is sold under any circumstancesIf the rod is sold at all it comes down to the person. I prefer to give credit where it's due so I mention the designer. I personally think it's a bit of bad form to not do so but I wouldn't think badly of a person who doesn't because I'm obviously not speaking for all and who's to say I'm right. TerryYou have done this before Tony, jump in with both barrels when I reply to one ofyour countrymen. It was only one barrel loaded with #6 shot but it's a short coming we have, called mateship, one in all in. Stupid concept but there it is [:-)] Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from martinrjensen@home.com Thu Nov 1 23:29:00 2001 fA25Sxa15193 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 23:28:59 - femail42.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:12:33 -0800 Subject: RE: HTML In Outlook 2002 and earlier versions, you can select a particular emailaddress and set to send in plain text only. The location for this variesdepending on version. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: HTML One more note on HTML vs plain text email... When I make up the searchable archives every month, only plain textmessages make it to the database. HTML, attachments etc are discarded.That's why some people's messages, when you pull them up in thearchives, are always blank.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Nov 1 23:57:12 2001 fA25vBa16238 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 23:57:11 -0600 (authenticated) Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:24:08 -0800 Subject: Re: Scales Chris, I have two. One is similar to what John describes below, except itmeasures in 10th's of an ounce (and belongs in the kitchen to SWMBO). Itwas less than $30, and came through Weight Watchers.The other is a reloading scale, by Lyman. Cost is about $35, and it'llweigh the difference in two frog hairs. Harry channer wrote: Chris;Check out the housewares section at your local hardware emporium, youmight find a food scale that will do. I found a Cuisinart that isgraduated in 1/4 ounces( with enough space between graduations tointerpret finer) and grams, it goes up to 10 ounces and 300 some grams.John Chris McDowell wrote: I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, andfinished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from martinrjensen@home.com Fri Nov 2 00:22:58 2001 fA26Mva17012 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:22:57 -0600 femail29.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: RE: HTML.... Not really a rant even though it may sound like one. OK,maybe a little bit of one The problem with this list is the way it addresses mail. I have createda rule that moves all messages sent to the rodmakers list automaticallyto a sub folder named Rodmakers. About half the time the messages go tothe Rodmakers folder and the other half they come to my inbox. I reallyhave no idea why. It would be nice if it was consistent. Now when I receive messages from this list, they are usually fromRodmakers and the original sender. I have set my email to send to theRodmakers list in plain text only, but when I "reply" the originalsender is the only person included. I have to hit "Reply to All" toinclude the list. Now the Rodmakers list was changed several years ago.It used to be, when you hit the reply button you would send only toRodmakers. Then it was changed, and if you hit "reply" only, you sent tothe original sender. You have to hit "Reply to all" to include Rodmakersemail. I have no idea why the list was changed but it was, and it didnot make it any "handier" as far as I am concerned, but it is a donedeal and I guess we have to live with it. I am NOT going to edit every single address every time I send a message,and I choose to send the bulk of my messages in HTML and or Word format HTML and some may get a winmail.dat file. The majority of people Icorrespond with are on a T1 and I have set my email program to reflectthe majority of my messages. I am careful of attachments simply becauseI have found that attachments bring most people to a completestandstill, so it is rare that I will ever send an attachment withoutknowing that "you " want it. Now if I set my program to use Word as anemail editor, some people will receive an attachment named winmail.dat.This is small and can be deleted. It contains formatting informationthat Microsoft Word uses to compose the message, and that a lot of thirdparty email programs apparently do not understand. They simply includeit as an attachment as they don't know what else to do with it. Now very few of the messages I see on this list are very big. If peoplehave problems downloading all the messages, there are programs designedto (connect to the Internet, logon to your email program, download yourmessages and then disconnect) automatically much quicker than you coulddo all by your self. These might be worth checking out. Places to lookmight be www.download.com for instance. So, we have a brief explanation of some messaging concerns and why youcan't please all people all the time. Maybe this will start anotherthread. I haven't started another rod yet as I am too busy at work. Mustbe Winter.... Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: HTML In Outlook 2002 and earlier versions, you can select a particular emailaddress and set to send in plain text only. The location for this variesdepending on version. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: HTML One more note on HTML vs plain text email... When I make up the searchable archives every month, only plain textmessages make it to the database. HTML, attachments etc are discarded.That's why some people's messages, when you pull them up in thearchives, are always blank.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from caneman@clnk.com Fri Nov 2 01:37:30 2001 fA27bUa19514 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:37:30 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Scales Chris,The scales I have are Triple beam scales, very accurate, came from anantique mall for $25 and measure in 0.1 gram increments. Not like a goodset of digital scales but more than accurate for what we need to measureglues, rod weights, etc. Hit the Antique Malls and Pawn Shops (especiallyafter a large local drug bust) and you can probably find a good set oftriple beams for a reasonable price. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Scales I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, andfinished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Fri Nov 2 04:23:28 2001 fA2ANRa21118 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 04:23:27 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:19:43 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Garrison book wanted --------------FE32C7823F20A65A2B462DA8 Sure Tony you can have the copy I bought off E bay a year and a half ago over $100 that still is floating around out in postal service time/spacecontinuum;^) That is if it ever gets here.....ha ha ha, who am I trying to kid??Shawn Tony Miller wrote: Would anyone want to sell one of those worthless (big time sarcasm here)Garrisonbooks to me? since it is so useless and all.I'd love to take it off your hands.I'msure you would not want much seeing how the book makes a better leveler wobbly table.:))Seriously I want one.Contact me off list.TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html --------------FE32C7823F20A65A2B462DA8 half ago for well over $100 that still is floating around out in postalservice time/space continuum ;^) That is if it ever gets here.....ha haha, who am I trying to kid?? ShawnTony Miller wrote:BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT- SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000;BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Wouldanyone want to sell one of those worthless (big time sarcasm here) Garrisonbooks to me? since it is so useless and all.I'd love to take it off yourhands. I'm sure you would not want much seeing how the book makes a betterleveler for a wobbly table.:))Seriously I want one.Contact me off list.TonyMillerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html --------------FE32C7823F20A65A2B462DA8-- from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 06:39:17 2001 fA2CdGa22442 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:39:16 -0600 02 Nov 2001 04:39:23 PST Subject: Re: Hollow Built Dennis, who was the other Dennis at the 2000 Catskillsgathering? It was him then that had the Dickersonrepro that I liked so much. Bill Walters --- Dennishigham@cs.com wrote: Bill, Not me>>> I've never built a hollow built or an8'5wt. However I have brought a Leonard 8', 5wt to some gatherings. It's (I think)a 2 piece model 50 custom built for George Mason one of the founders ofT.U. Great rod but not my work. The taper is available to anyone who wantsit. Your spelling is perfect!! Dennis Dickerson taper for an 8', 5wt. that I believe, wasmade by Dennis Higham (sorry Dennis, not sure ofthespelling on your last name). My impression was thatthe weight loss may be minimal but the way ithandledwas nothing short of miraculous. I think the changetothe action and the weight combine to give it a verydifferent feel. Really considering building one formynext rod. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Fri Nov 2 07:00:55 2001 fA2D0sa22543 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:00:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Glue Thanks for all the information! Pete from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Nov 2 07:54:52 2001 fA2Dsqa23000 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:54:52 -0600 Subject: Re: Ackland Cronicles TonyDo not agree with that at all. I think the usual, fast,medium or parabolic etc.isperfectly adequate unless you feel that mentioning Young or Dickerson willexplainthe action.These names will of only mean anything to a dedicated cane man and nothingto mostso at best serves little purpose.I think you have to get all this rod history stuff into perspective andunderstandthat It may be important to us but not to the majority.I used to sail an International 14 and the history of the class was reallyfascinating but only for those that sailed the bloody things.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry, Tony,rod makers have been stealing each others tapers from day one. Who cansaywith allhonesty who was the original designer of a particular taper even if it hasbeenattributed to a certain maker. The history of rodmaking is just full ofstorieslegends and half truths. That's not actually the issue. The designer of the taper is either the truedesigner or the person who developed the taper the action of the rod ismaking. If the identity of the true originator is lost in the fog of bamboowar that's a shame but presumably the person who becomes known for thetaper has improved it sufficiently for it to become a very popular rodaction by way of also developing other similar tapers which are alsopopular so it wont just happen by mistake.I also rather think the actual tapers themselves would not be attributedincorrectly very often at all in fact.The Sir D is a taper that does prove what you say and is a bit unfortunatein a way but that probably only occurred due to the fast communicationsamonst a lot of people only recently possible.Still, I always thought the WC 7' #4 (Sir D) was closely related to the PHYrods and although I forget what Wayne wrote about it's development thatguess was about right so it's not that hard to pick where the basis of thedevelopment came from. It obviously wasn't a Dickerson. I would have thought that every conceivable permutation of a goodfishablerod hasalready been made so we could all be copying. I think so too, so all this argument I'm making is not self serving. Inever plan on intentionally developing my own taper simply because I'vefound several I think are so good there is no point in my mind spendingtime doing it.Having said that you can't mistake a Driggs for a Payne 98 or a PM Midgewith a PHY Midge etc. The actions are pretty obviously from certainstables.I've said it many times that IMHO you can vary quite a bit with thedimensions and still have a rod that is the action you're wanting,modifying a few numbers makes a different taper but not necessarily anewaction in most cases.If you've altered the action you have a different rod.If on the other hand the action is similar the numbers may not agree butthe rod is the basically the same. You can see that just by looking at allthe different tapers used by the original makers themselves.They either thought the action was too close to the original to warrant aname change or wanted to sell the new taper based on the reputation oftheoriginal taper. Same difference in the end and it's THIS point I think iswhy the designer's name should be mentioned on a rod built to his/herdesign.It doesn't matter that it's not exactly the same, the action is what wasdesired and if it's built right that's what you'll have. I cannot see the big deal with borrowing tapers. My first rods were goodoldGarrisons' (which I did mention) and I could not cast them as most guyscannot so Ibeefed them up to suit me.What should I have called my new tapers, modified Garrisons' or Acklandtapers? Icalled them a fast dryfly developed by me, is that wrong? You've quite obviously altered the action. If you can't cast the rod beforealtering the taper but like the action after changing the taper it's bydefinition a different action therefore not the same as the original and isan Ackland taper, no question about it. You haven't just added a brand to acow to make it look like yours you've made your own branding iron and usedit on your own cow to use a western movie example.If all you did was beef the butt a little but it's still the same actionwith less movement in the handle it's a modification. If you tie a Royal Coachman using a Timco hook then use a Mustad is it adifferent fly? I think not.What is it if you use purple rather than red in the body? Open for argumentI guess, possibly. In fact there must be a fly with this and it's likely adifferent name.How about not only purple body but a deer hair wing? There is an obviouspoint of departure. I do not see how you can make tapers freely available and expect to havesomecontrol on how they are used. I have opinions and this is the place for these ones I have for a changebut I'm no fascist, I don't approve of guilds and governing bodies and mostcertainly am not going to try to force my ideas upon anybody but I woulddebate it.You are right, you can't prevent people doing what they like with tapers,it's up to the conscience of each maker to do as he/she wishes. Exactlylike what you do with trout you catch where you can take them butdo/don'tdepending on the person. If you're making a rod to use who cares??? It's not an issue at all.IMHO it's not correct to use a living maker's taper if permission is notgiven and the rod is sold under any circumstancesIf the rod is sold at all it comes down to the person. I prefer to givecredit where it's due so I mention the designer. I personally think it's abit of bad form to not do so but I wouldn't think badly of a person whodoesn't because I'm obviously not speaking for all and who's to say I'mright. TerryYou have done this before Tony, jump in with both barrels when I reply toone ofyour countrymen. It was only one barrel loaded with #6 shot but it's a short coming we have,called mateship, one in all in. Stupid concept but there it is [:-)] Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from dpeaston@wzrd.com Fri Nov 2 08:03:20 2001 fA2E3Ja23557 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:03:19 -0600 Subject: RE: HTML You can do this also in Netscape 4.0 and higher. -Doug At 08:12 PM 11/1/2001 -0800, Martin Jensen wrote: In Outlook 2002 and earlier versions, you can select a particular emailaddress and set to send in plain text only. The location for this variesdepending on version. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:01 PM Subject: Re: HTML from JNL123141@msn.com Fri Nov 2 08:22:59 2001 fA2EMwa24184 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:22:58 -0600 Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:22:51 -0800 Subject: Quad rod FILETIME=[DB1F9EF0:01C163A9] John Zimny, please contact me off-list. JohnZimny, pl=ease contact me off-list. from lblove@omniglobal.net Fri Nov 2 08:34:50 2001 fA2EYn724495 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:34:49 -0600 Subject: pinning female ferrules when pinning females ferrules, whereshould I place the pin, in the thin wall area just above the tabs or throughthe thicker area above the taper on themajor outside diameter? tiaBrad from harms1@pa.net Fri Nov 2 08:41:53 2001 fA2Efp724861 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:41:52 -0600 Subject: Re: Garrison book Frank, You will not be wasting your time reading Garrison. He was not, however,the god of all information on rod building. He was an engineer with anextraordinarily precise mind and an equally extraordinarily gifted pair ofhands. Bamboo rods had fallen almost completely out of favor with the fishingpublic by the 1970s, and there were almost no known amateur builders atthat time. Carmichael's intention was to chronicle the work of perhaps theonly living expert--and surely the only man willing to share, openly, hisinformation and processes. It is largely because of those factors thatGarrison is regarded as our "deity," and not so much because we need tothink of his way as being the only way (and certainly not any longer). The book exists as it does largely because Hoagy Carmichael wished to payhomage to everything that his friend, "Gary," knew. And this meantphotographing and explaining every step that Gary took--as well asaccounting for all of Gary's complicated mathamatical formulae. This lateris the part (for the newcomer to the craft, particularly), that constitutesthe really tough going. On the purely practical side of rod-building, again, Garrison/Carmichael"walk" us through a great many steps that are presented as being absolutelyessential, when, in fact, many of these steps and considerations are notnecessarily essential at all. It was usually just Garrison'sultra- fastidious mind at work, and Carmichael's wish to honor, completely,his mentor/friend. Garrison's math was surely the core of all his successful rods, but theirony is that you and I don't really need that part of the book at all--noteven to build truly exceptional rods. I have been designing and buildingfly rods since the mid-nineteen seventies, but I do not understandmathamatics beyond simple arithmetic. Complicated mathematics are veryhelpful to some builders, but by no means essential to the design process.There are other ways, equally effective. You and I just don't need thosecomplicated mathematics any longer, as there are now literally hundreds oftapers available to us, not to mention the rather remarkable "Hexagraph"system that Wayne Cattanach developed. Gary did his engineering calculations because that is the way HIS mindneeded to understand things, and also because, at the time he began building(the 1930s), the only other builders were largely commercial, and theyweren't sharing information (as we do now). Gary's good friend, Dr. Parker Holden ("Idyl of The Split Cane," 1919),helped him enormously in the beginning, but Holden was influenced by RobertCrompton, and the two of them had already become powerful advocates ofthefive-strip fly rod. Tapers for six-strip rods that were to Garrison'sliking weren't publicly available in the 1930s (as they certainly are now),so he felt he needed to develop a system of mathematical calculations thatwould yield rods of similar action all across the spectrum of lengths andline-weights. It was the first such attempt, and while some currentbuilders may take exception to Garrison's engineering principles,nevertheless, Garrison's system produced a series of truly remarkable rods. I would never wish to be critical in any negative sense of either Garrisonor Carmichael. The fact was that (apart from the limited andlong-out-of-print information in the Holden, Herter, Kreider and McClanebooks) there were no truly complete books on bamboo rod-building availablein the 1970s. Garrison/Carmichael had a truly unique opportunity to fillthat gap. So, if there is anything at all to be wary of, it is perhaps thatthe book has within it a good deal of "overkill." We get a much more detailabout Garrison's procedures than is actually needed. (Indeed, Garrisonprobably became involved in a great deal more detail than he, himself,needed. But it is the way he did things.) Carmichael's focus was partly upon what another amateur builder would needto know, but it was much more intent upon saying everything possible aboutGarrison. So, the book is both a "how-to" manual, and a tribute to Garrisonhimself. It's this latter part of Carmichael's focus that perhaps goesbeyond what the start-up builder really needs. So, as they say, take whatyou like, and leave the rest. The Garrison book may tell you more than youneed to know (sometimes to the point of irrelevance?), but it will not leadyou astray. As to other, contemporary books that you might find more "user- friendly,"there are also (in addition to Cattenach) books by George Maurer and JackHowell. Any of these will serve you very well, indeed, in your desire tobuild a rod. Later, you can return to Garrison, and appreciate hiscontributions in a somewhat different different perspective. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Garrison book I am still new to this game - getting the tools together. I have purchased the Cattanach book and video and have read and watched them a numberoftimes. The other day I borrowed the Garrison/Carmichael book from thelibrary. On my first skimming the book seems to be quite heavy going. Arecent number of posts now suggest to me that I am wasting my timetrying to absorb the contents of this book. My question is am I waisting my time with this book and should I avoid it because he makes the rod making process tocomplex? Cheers, Frank.-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu "noneSent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmakers I would also call the biggest B.S. : computer generated designs and stress curves. Also the Garrison book which was entirely written by HoagyCarmichael I believe to make rodmaking seem more difficult than it is. Case in point, I have been involved in it for over 15 years and have only met 1 person that failed at the craft and that is because of a lack of love forit. Marty from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Fri Nov 2 08:43:42 2001 fA2Ehf725120 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:43:41 -0600 Subject: Urac/Ammonium Chloride What is the open time with Urac when using the 10% distilled water andAmmonium Chloride solution? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from Grayson.Davis@valpo.edu Fri Nov 2 08:45:45 2001 fA2Eji725456 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:45:44 -0600 fA2Ejew25360 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:45:41 -0600 Subject: Re: Scales wrote: I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, andfinished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com weighing on the cheap (powder) : weigh out one ounce on a postal scale; fold a piece of shim stock nearly in half; use magic marker to put eleven equally-spaced marks on the channel fromed by the fold; sprinkle, tap and otherwise distribute the oz. evenly inside the marks in the channel; scrape or brush off one division-worth (0.1 oz.) onto a clean sheet of paper; put nine divisions-worth back in the bottle; repeat with the 0.1 oz to get .01 oz. -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Nov 2 08:54:30 2001 fA2EsS726462 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:54:28 -0600 Subject: Re: Garrison book Do not overlook the book by list member Ray Gould either. It is also a great book to have in your library. Here is a picture of Ray's book.Bret Bret'sOven Page(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) Do not overlook the book by list member Ray Gould picture of Ray's book.Bret Bret'sOven Page(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from rmoon@ida.net Fri Nov 2 09:00:58 2001 fA2F0u727067 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:00:57 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: scales I bought a little gram balance scale at Haarbor Freight for less than $10. I can't attest to its accuraacy in terms of grams or ounces, but since it is a balance beam scale proportions can be worked out with accuracy. I do my resorcinol this way. It beats Russ's $150 (Sorry Russ) Ralph -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium >Fromatlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Nov 2 09:05:35 2001 Received: from fA2F5Y727557 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.134.204] helo=g2t8c9) by Fri, 02 Nov 2001 07:05:40 -0800 Message-ID: , "Roodmakers" MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ralph, If you want to test it you. My post office actually has the scale in the lobby for the public. Thenset you scale. Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: Ralph W. Moon Friday, November 02, 2001 6:59 AM Subject: scales I bought a little gram balance scale at Haarbor Freight for less than$10. I can't attest to its accuraacy in terms of grams or ounces, butsince it is a balance beam scale proportions can be worked out withaccuracy. I do my resorcinol this way. It beats Russ's $150 (Sorry Russ) Ralph --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from eamlee@email.msn.com Fri Nov 2 09:42:21 2001 fA2FgK701814 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:42:21 -0600 Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:41:37 -0800 Subject: Box elder burl Organization: Microsoft Corporation FILETIME=[DBE733B0:01C163B4] Hello List-Sorry to take up bandwidth with this but I have a lot of box elder burl. Afew hundred pounds. Anyone interested, please contact me off list ateamon_lee@hotmail.comThank you muchEamon from JNL123141@msn.com Fri Nov 2 09:46:15 2001 fA2FkF702460 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:46:15 -0600 Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:46:16 -0800 Subject: Re: Scales FILETIME=[8233AE60:01C163B5] Have you been listening to the Car Talk Puzzler on N.P.R? ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Scales wrote: I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, andfinished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com weighing on the cheap (powder) : weigh out one ounce on a postal scale; fold a piece of shimstock nearly in half; use magic marker to put elevenequally-spaced marks on the channel fromed by the fold;sprinkle, tap and otherwise distribute the oz. evenlyinside the marks in the channel; scrape or brush off onedivision-worth (0.1 oz.) onto a clean sheet of paper; putnine divisions-worth back in the bottle; repeat with the0.1 oz to get .01 oz. -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University Have youbeen = &n=bsp; ----- Original Message ----- From:Grayso=n Davis Sent: Friday,Novemb= rodm= -08= wrote:&g= R= abo= Thanks= blitzenrods@aol= http:= (powder) :weigh out one ounce on a postal scale; fold a piece of shimstoc=k nearly in half; use magic marker to put elevenequally-spaced marks =on the channel fromed by the fold;sprinkle, tap and otherwise distrib=ute the oz. evenlyinside the marks in the channel; scrape or brush of=f onedivision- worth (0.1 oz.) onto a clean sheet of paper; putnin=e divisions-worth back in the bottle; repeat with the0.1 oz to get .0=1 oz.---------------------------------- -------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaisoUniversity from saweiss@flash.net Fri Nov 2 09:53:29 2001 fA2FrS703519 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:53:28 -0600 fA2FrSt242472; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:53:29 -0500 "Roodmakers" Subject: Re: scales Organization: Prodigy Internet Adam,Do you really believe that the post office routinely calibrates its ownscales?Steve Ralph, If you want to test it for accuracy. Go to the post office and ask them toweigh a few things for you. My post office actually has the scale in thelobby for the public. Then set you scale. from JNL123141@msn.com Fri Nov 2 09:55:31 2001 fA2FtU703977 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:55:30 -0600 Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:55:28 -0800 Subject: Re: Garrison book FILETIME=[CB064CF0:01C163B6] Bill,You are so right. Thanks for putting things into perspective so eloquent=ly. I think a lot of people need to read your words. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Garrison book Frank, You will not be wasting your time reading Garrison. He was not, however,the god of all information on rod building. He was an engineer with anextraordinarily precise mind and an equally extraordinarily gifted pair o=fhands. Bamboo rods had fallen almost completely out of favor with the fishingpublic by the 1970s, and there were almost no known amateur builders atthat time. Carmichael's intention was to chronicle the work of perhaps t=heonly living expert--and surely the only man willing to share, openly, hisinformation and processes. It is largely because of those factors thatGarrison is regarded as our "deity," and not so much because we need tothink of his way as being the only way (and certainly not any longer). The book exists as it does largely because Hoagy Carmichael wished to payhomage to everything that his friend, "Gary," knew. And this meantphotographing and explaining every step that Gary took--as well asaccounting for all of Gary's complicated mathamatical formulae. This lat=eris the part (for the newcomer to the craft, particularly), that constitut=esthe really tough going. On the purely practical side of rod-building, again, Garrison/Carmichael"walk" us through a great many steps that are presented as being absolute=lyessential, when, in fact, many of these steps and considerations are notnecessarily essential at all. It was usually just Garrison'sultra- fastidious mind at work, and Carmichael's wish to honor, completely=,his mentor/friend. Garrison's math was surely the core of all his successful rods, but theirony is that you and I don't really need that part of the book at all--n=oteven to build truly exceptional rods. I have been designing and buildingfly rods since the mid-nineteen seventies, but I do not understandmathamatics beyond simple arithmetic. Complicated mathematics are veryhelpful to some builders, but by no means essential to the design process=\.There are other ways, equally effective. You and I just don't need thosecomplicated mathematics any longer, as there are now literally hundreds o=ftapers available to us, not to mention the rather remarkable "Hexagraph"system that Wayne Cattanach developed. Gary did his engineering calculations because that is the way HIS mindneeded to understand things, and also because, at the time he began build=ing(the 1930s), the only other builders were largely commercial, and theyweren't sharing information (as we do now). Gary's good friend, Dr. Parker Holden ("Idyl of The Split Cane," 1919),helped him enormously in the beginning, but Holden was influenced by Robe=rtCrompton, and the two of them had already become powerful advocates ofth=efive-strip fly rod. Tapers for six-strip rods that were to Garrison'sliking weren't publicly available in the 1930s (as they certainly are now=),so he felt he needed to develop a system of mathematical calculations tha=twould yield rods of similar action all across the spectrum of lengths andline-weights. It was the first such attempt, and while some currentbuilders may take exception to Garrison's engineering principles,nevertheless, Garrison's system produced a series of truly remarkable rod=s. I would never wish to be critical in any negative sense of either Garriso=nor Carmichael. The fact was that (apart from the limited andlong-out-of-print information in the Holden, Herter, Kreider and McClanebooks) there were no truly complete books on bamboo rod-building availabl=ein the 1970s. Garrison/Carmichael had a truly unique opportunity to fillthat gap. So, if there is anything at all to be wary of, it is perhaps t=hatthe book has within it a good deal of "overkill." We get a much more det=ailabout Garrison's procedures than is actually needed. (Indeed, Garrisonprobably became involved in a great deal more detail than he, himself,needed. But it is the way he did things.) Carmichael's focus was partly upon what another amateur builder would nee=dto know, but it was much more intent upon saying everything possible abou=tGarrison. So, the book is both a "how-to" manual, and a tribute to Garri=sonhimself. It's this latter part of Carmichael's focus that perhaps goesbeyond what the start-up builder really needs. So, as they say, take wha=tyou like, and leave the rest. The Garrison book may tell you more than y=ouneed to know (sometimes to the point of irrelevance?), but it will not le=adyou astray. As to other, contemporary books that you might find more "user- friendly,"there are also (in addition to Cattenach) books by George Maurer and JackHowell. Any of these will serve you very well, indeed, in your desire tobuild a rod. Later, you can return to Garrison, and appreciate hiscontributions in a somewhat different different perspective. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Garrison book I am still new to this game - getting the tools together. I have purchased the Cattanach book and video and have read and watched them a numberoftimes. The other day I borrowed the Garrison/Carmichael book from thelibrary. On my first skimming the book seems to be quite heavy going. = A recent number of posts now suggest to me that I am wasting my timetryi= ngto absorb the contents of this book. My question is am I waisting my time with this book and should I avoid it because he makes the rod making process= to complex? Cheers, Frank.-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu "non= e Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmakers I would also call the biggest B.S. : computer generated designs and stress curves. Also the Garrison book which was entirely written by HoagyCarmichael I believe to make rodmaking seem more difficult than it is. Case in point, I have been involved in it for over 15 years and have only m= et1 person that failed at the craft and that is because of a lack of love f= or it. Marty Bill, ----- Original Message ----- From: WILLIAM HARMSSent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:45AM= frank.haran@sympatico.c=a Cc:rodmakers@wugate.wustl=.edu Subject: Re: Garrisonb= tim= precise mind and an equally extraordinarily gifted pair ofhands.Bamboo rods had fallen almost completely out of favor with the fishing= bui= work of perhaps theonly living expert--and surely the only man willin= because of those factors thatGarrison is regarded as our "deity,"&nb=sp; and not so much because we need tothink of his way as being the o=nly way (and certainly not any longer).The book exists as it does=largely because Hoagy Carmichael wished to payhomage to everythingt= xplaining every step that Gary took--as well asaccounting for all of = part=(for the newcomer to the craft, particularly), that constitutesthe r=eally tough going.On the purely practical side of rod-building, a=gain, Garrison/Carmichael"walk" us through a great many steps thatar=e presented as being absolutelyessential, when, in fact, many of thes= It was usually just Garrison'sultra-fastidious mind at work, and Car=michael's wish to honor, completely,hismentor/friend.Garriso=n's math was surely the core of all his successful rods, but theirony= ildingfly rods since the mid-nineteen seventies, but I do not underst= mathematic=s are veryhelpful to some builders, but by no means essential to the = I just don't need thosecomplicated mathematics any longer, as there =are now literally hundreds oftapers available to us, not to mention t=he rather remarkable "Hexagraph"system that Wayne Cattanachdeveloped=.Gary did his engineering calculations because that is the way HI=S mindneeded to understand things, and also because, at the time he b=egan building(the 1930s), the only other builders were largely commer=cial, and theyweren't sharing information (as we donow).Gary='s good friend, Dr. Parker Holden ("Idyl of The Split Cane," 1919),he=lped him enormously in the beginning, but Holden was influenced by Robert=Crompton, and the two of them had already become powerful advocateso= Garrison'sliking weren't publicly available in the 1930s (as they ce=rtainly are now),so he felt he needed to develop a system ofmathemat=ical calculations thatwould yield rods of similar action all across t= ttempt, and while some currentbuilders may take exception toGarrison='s engineering principles,nevertheless, Garrison's system produced a =series of truly remarkable rods.I would never wish to be critical= t was that (apart from the limited andlong-out-of-print information i=n the Holden, Herter, Kreider and McClanebooks) there were no truly c=omplete books on bamboo rod-building availablein the 1970s. Garrison/= if there is anything at all to be wary of, it is perhaps thatthe book= arrisonprobably became involved in a great deal more detail than he, = things.)Carmic=hael's focus was partly upon what another amateur builder wouldneedt=o know, but it was much more intent upon saying everything possible about= s that perhaps goesbeyond what the start-up builder reallyneeds.&nbs= Garrison book may tell you more than youneed to know (sometimes toth=e point of irrelevance?), but it will not leadyou astray.As t=o other, contemporary books that you might find more "user-friendly,"=there are also (in addition to Cattenach) books by George Maurer and Jack= preciate hiscontributions in a somewhat different different perspecti=ve.cheers, Bill----- Original Message -----Fr= <horsesh= Nove= stil= n= Garrison/Carmi= now= = Frank= From= rodmakers@wugate= Thur= Dkenney94@cs.com;= rodm= B= G= in= a= from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Fri Nov 2 10:24:02 2001 fA2GNx707482 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:24:01 -0600 Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:24:01 -0800 Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:24:00 GMT Subject: Re: pinning female ferrules FILETIME=[C7F84CD0:01C163BA] Brad: where the tabs are located. By locating the pin in this area, it's going to behidden from view when you wrap the ferrule with your thread. ferrules Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from MasjC1@aol.com Fri Nov 2 11:37:45 2001 fA2Hbi710979 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:37:44 -0600 Subject: Re: What the H? Bob, Did you give yourself a raise since it was so difficult to fill the position? Mark Cole I'm now only 207 e-mails and 6 rods behind. Bob, Did you give yourself a raise since it was so difficult to fill the position? Mark Cole I'm now only 207 e-mails and 6 rods behind. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Nov 2 11:55:00 2001 fA2Ht0711947 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:55:00 -0600 (authenticated) for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:54:50 -0800 Subject: Damar Varnish? Friends, Anybody know what this stuff is? Smells liketurpentine, and is used by artists over oilpaintings, I think. I know this much, it'll turnwhite silk absolutely positively crystal clear.In a day or two I'll know how it reacts with sparvarnish. Any artists out there who can give me alittle insight? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Nov 2 12:08:28 2001 fA2I8R712750 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:08:27 -0600 ([209.178.136.211] helo=m8e6q3) id 15zik4-0004Xs-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:08:32 -0800 "Roodmakers" Subject: Re: scales Steve, Scales used for comerce are checked and calibrated by the bureau ofweightsand measures. If you are not sure just check the round sticker on the sideof the scale. It will tell you when they were last checked. I do not know ifthe post office is under the same enforcement but I do know they losemoneyif the scale is not calibrated. That is why they weigh stuff before they putpostage on it. Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: scales Adam,Do you really believe that the post office routinely calibrates its ownscales?Steve Ralph, If you want to test it for accuracy. Go to the post office and ask them to weigh a few things for you. My post office actually has the scale in the lobby for the public. Then set you scale. from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Fri Nov 2 12:27:13 2001 fA2IRC713636 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:27:12 -0600 Subject: Re: Goulds book Rays book is a book You cannot stop reading.It is NOT the book to start up a wannebee, butonce You=B4ve made the first couple of rods,BUY THAT BOOK. No financial interest etc. blah-blah. regards, carsten jorgensen Subject: Re: Garrison book Do not overlook the book by list member Ray Gould either. It is also =a great book to have in your library. Here is a picture of Ray's book.Bret Bret's Oven Page (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) -------------------------------------------------------------------------=----- Rays book is a book You cannot reading.It is NOT the book to start up a = butonce You=B4ve made the first couple rods,BUY THAT BOOK. No financial interest etc. =blah-blah. regards, carsten jorgensen ----- Original Message ----- Grhghlndr@aol.com = Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001= PMSubject: Re: Garrison =bookDo not overlook the book by list member= picture of Ray's book.BretBret'sOven = (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from DNHayashida@aol.com Fri Nov 2 12:29:04 2001 fA2IT3713877 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:29:04 -0600 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:29:07 -0500 Subject: Veritas plane scraper insert Since I got a Stanley No. 4 bench plane off of eBay - great source for planes try the Veritas scraper conversion. A plane bodied scraper flattens the irregularities where the rectangular piece of steel type of scraper just follows the humps and valleys up and down. Both have their uses dependingon what you are trying to do. If you have a bench plane that will take a 2" wide blade and you don't want to spend $145.00 for the Lie-Nielsen No. 212 scraper, you can use theVeritas scraper insert. I didn't like the Veritas conversion as much as mt LN scraper. The Veritas uses a very thin blade even if you get the thicker blade they offer, and is much more prone to chatter. Since the smallest plane you can use it on is a No.4, you get into the situation of a big somewhat heavy, unwieldy plane, but you have to go slowly and carefully to avoid chatter. If you have a No.4 plane already, and can't afford a LN 212 scraper, then getting the Veritas scraper insert is better than not having a plane bodied scraper. Personally I would just bite the bullet and get a LN scraper.Darryl Hayashida SinceI got a Stanley No. 4 bench plane off of eBay - great source for planes by theway. The older planes really are made better than todays. I decided to trythe Veritas scraper conversion. A plane bodied scraper flattens theirregularities where the rectangular piece of steel type of scraper justfollows the humps and valleys up and down. Both have their uses dependingon what you are trying to do. If you have a bench plane that will take a 2" wide blade and you don'twant to spend $145.00 for the Lie-Nielsen No. 212 scraper, you can use theVeritas scraper insert. I didn't like the Veritas conversion as much as mt LN scraper. TheVeritas uses a very thin blade even if you get the thicker blade they offer,and is much more prone to chatter. Since the smallest plane you can use iton is a No.4, you get into the situation of a big somewhat heavy, unwieldyplane, but you have to go slowly and carefully to avoid chatter. If you have a No.4 plane already, and can't afford a LN 212 scraper,then getting the Veritas scraper insert is better than not having a planebodied scraper. Personally I would just bite the bullet and get a LN scraper.Darryl Hayashida from paul@lifeware.com Fri Nov 2 12:32:56 2001 fA2IWt714293 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:32:55 -0600 c0mailgw01.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.042) (NPlex 5.5.015) Subject: RE: Damar Varnish? Harry,Here is the description out of one of my artist material catalogs. They alsohave a varnish similar to Damar, but without the turpentine. Turpentine willslow the drying process somewhat. You should be OK Appling this under Sparvarnish. Damar in intended to be applied to oil paintings in order to makethe colors more vibrant and then sealed with an artists varnishPaul Yorkwww.paulyork.comDAMAR GUM ( Gomme Dammar )Natural damar resin crystals from damar fir trees. Collected in Indonesiaand Malaysia, damar gum is soaked in gum turpentine ( 20-30% resin insolvent )to make damar varnish for oil painting. As a picture varnish forfinished paintings it provides a beautifully transparent and removable highgloss protective coating. Picture varnishes should not be applied until oilpaints have completely dried ( 6-12 months ). Damar varnish is also used asan ingredient in formulas for glazing mediums, oil paint mediums andretouching varnish. Do not add more than 5- 10% to paints. -----Original Message----- Subject: Damar Varnish? Friends, Anybody know what this stuff is? Smells liketurpentine, and is used by artists over oilpaintings, I think. I know this much, it'll turnwhite silk absolutely positively crystal clear.In a day or two I'll know how it reacts with sparvarnish. Any artists out there who can give me alittle insight? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from DNHayashida@aol.com Fri Nov 2 12:54:34 2001 fA2IsY715555 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:54:34 -0600 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:54:33 -0500 Subject: Ferrules for the 8 and 6 in 1 Everyone I contacted about a set of ferrules where one male will fit into two females weren't much help. Either I got no response at all or it was a "Buy two ferrule sets and try it" answer. Not very helpful. This just might be the impetus to get me to make my own ferrules.Darryl Hayashida Everyone I contacted about a set of ferrules where one male will fit intotwo females weren't much help. Either I got no response at all or it was a"Buy two ferrule sets and try it" answer. Not very helpful. This just might bethe impetus to get me to make my own ferrules.Darryl Hayashida from jvswan@earthlink.net Fri Nov 2 13:05:52 2001 fA2J5p716242 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:05:51 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade tofit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mentionthat the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and thenew "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have the samefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) downto the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who willtrue and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an old one onEbay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? And, along those lines, my gift bearers are willing to go along with theRecord if I want. What would be the benefit since I plan to use Hockblades? The depth adjustment doesn't feel quite as smooth as the newStanley. As far as I have heard, the only real benefit of the Record is abetter blade. Thanks in advance, Jason from DNHayashida@aol.com Fri Nov 2 13:28:17 2001 fA2JSH717574 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:28:17 -0600 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:28:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Stanley plane As an owner of both a new Stanley G12-020 Which might not be the same asthe one you are going to get, but it looks just like a 9 1/2, and an old 9 1/2, I can say the entire casting on the old one is thicker, various adjustment pieces on the new plane are stamped sheet metal where they are castings or formed thicker pieces on the old plane. I think the new one will do just as good a job as an old one, so if you can't get an older one for cheaper, don't worry about it. That's why I mentioned No.3 or No.4 bench planes in a previous post. You can get them cheaper than new on eBay. No.1s or No.2s - forget about it! Get a new one from Lie-Nielsen.As for a Record 9 1/2, I like it better than the Stanley because it is smaller and fits my hand better. The blade depth adjustment on the Recordis cheesier than the Stanley, but it does what it's supposed to do.Darryl Hayashida Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock bladetofit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mentionthat the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 andthenew "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have the samefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.)downto the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who willtrue and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an old oneonEbay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? And, along those lines, my gift bearers are willing to go along with theRecord if I want. What would be the benefit since I plan to use Hockblades? The depth adjustment doesn't feel quite as smooth as the newStanley. As far as I have heard, the only real benefit of the Record is abetter blade. Thanks in advance, Jason As an owner of both a new Stanley G12-020 Which might not be thesame as the one you are going to get, but it looks just like a 9 1/2, and anold 9 1/2, I can say the entire casting on the old one is thicker, variousadjustment pieces on the new plane are stamped sheet metal where they arecastings or formed thicker pieces on the old plane. I think the new one will dojust as good a job as an old one, so if you can't get an older one for cheaper,don't worry about it. That's why I mentioned No.3 or No.4 bench planes in aprevious post. You can get them cheaper than new on eBay. No.1s or No.2s -forget about it! Get a new one from Lie-Nielsen.As for a Record 9 1/2, I like it better than the Stanley because it issmaller and fits my hand better. The blade depth adjustment on the Recordis cheesier than the Stanley, but it does what it's supposed to do.Darryl Hayashida Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hockblade to mentionthat the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2and the the samefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.)down will old one onEbay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? And, along those lines, my gift bearers are willing to go along with the Hock the new Record is abetter blade. Thanks in advance, Jason from dstreight@yarcom.com Fri Nov 2 13:39:59 2001 fA2Jdw718397 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:39:58 -0600 0800 Subject: RE: Stanley plane Jason- I am the proud owner of eight Staley 9 1/2's and a single G12- 920. Iinherited two of the older models from my two grandfathers and havepurchased the other six on eBay for between 25 and 40 dollars. I have tosay that the major problem I have with the G12 is the cant adjustmentdesign. I prefer the curved lever of the older models to the new patentedadjuster on the G12. In addition, the 9 1/2's feel tighter to me, like themachining tolerances were more consistent in the old days?? But, perhapsthis latter opinion is simply my personal bias. Working with tools that mygrandfathers had used has always been more appealing to me than the newerversion of the Stanley. I must say though, for final planning, I use a Lie-Nielson without thegroove. I have small hands and thus get less fatigued with the smaller LNthan the Staley's. It sure is a beautiful tool as well. Hopefully mygrandchildren will appreciate it (as well as the 9 1/2's) someday. Dave -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2hock blade tofit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mentionthat the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 91/2 and thenew "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have the samefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant,etc.) downto the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who willtrue and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for anold one onEbay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? And, along those lines, my gift bearers are willing to go along with theRecord if I want. What would be the benefit since I plan to use Hockblades? The depth adjustment doesn't feel quite as smooth as the newStanley. As far as I have heard, the only real benefit of the Record is abetter blade. Thanks in advance, Jason from dstreight@yarcom.com Fri Nov 2 13:49:53 2001 fA2Jnq719153 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:49:52 -0600 0800 Subject: RE: Stanley plane Did I mention that I have a little problem with collecting tools...but I amin therapy for this affliction. Dave -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:41 PM Subject: RE: Stanley plane Jason-I am the proud owner of eight Staley 9 1/2's and a singleG12-920. Iinherited two of the older models from my two grandfathers and havepurchased the other six on eBay for between 25 and 40 dollars. I have tosay that the major problem I have with the G12 is the cant adjustmentdesign. I prefer the curved lever of the older models to the new patentedadjuster on the G12. In addition, the 9 1/2's feel tighter tome, like themachining tolerances were more consistent in the old days?? But, perhapsthis latter opinion is simply my personal bias. Working withtools that mygrandfathers had used has always been more appealing to me than thenewerversion of the Stanley.I must say though, for final planning, I use a Lie-Nielsonwithout thegroove. I have small hands and thus get less fatigued with the smaller LNthan the Staley's. It sure is a beautiful tool as well. Hopefully mygrandchildren will appreciate it (as well as the 9 1/2's) someday. Dave -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2hock blade tofit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 91/2 and thenew "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have thesamefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant,etc.) downto the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who willtrue and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for anold one onEbay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? And, along those lines, my gift bearers are willing to go along with theRecord if I want. What would be the benefit since I plan to use Hockblades? The depth adjustment doesn't feel quite as smooth as the newStanley. As far as I have heard, the only real benefit of the Record is a better blade. Thanks in advance, Jason from lblan@provide.net Fri Nov 2 14:59:33 2001 fA2KxW722932 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:59:32 -0600 with HTTP id 3805267; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:59:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Therapy will probably do no good, invest the money in new(old) tools. One of the bigger differences, to my way of thinking lies inthe design of the casting that supports the plane blade. Onthe older models, it is a long, full width machined bed. Onthe newer designs, it is very short (only about 1/4" inlength) with thin rails at the sides. Kind of a |_| shape,with a thicker base than sides. Unfortunately, I don't knowwhen this change was made. The result, however, is bettersupport for the plane blade, which allegedly reduceschatter. Larry Blan On Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:51:16 -0500"David A. Streight" wrote: Did I mention that I have a little problem withcollecting tools...but I amin therapy for this affliction. Dave -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu David A. Streight Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:41 PM Subject: RE: Stanley plane Jason-I am the proud owner of eight Staley 9 1/2's and a single G12-920. Iinherited two of the older models from my two grandfathers and have purchased the other six on eBay for between 25 and 40 dollars. I have to say that the major problem I have with the G12 is the cant adjustment design. I prefer the curved lever of the older models to the new patented adjuster on the G12. In addition, the 9 1/2's feel tighter to me, like themachining tolerances were more consistent in the old days?? But, perhaps this latter opinion is simply my personal bias. Working with tools that mygrandfathers had used has always been more appealing to me than the newer version of the Stanley.I must say though, for final planning, I use a Lie-Nielson without thegroove. I have small hands and thus get less fatigued with the smaller LN than the Staley's. It sure is a beautiful tool as well. Hopefully my grandchildren will appreciate it (as well as the 9 1/2's) someday. from harms1@pa.net Fri Nov 2 15:01:51 2001 fA2L1o723228 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:01:50 -0600 Subject: Re: Garrison book Bret, No, indeed, Ray Gould's book is NOT to be overlooked, as it is yet anotherexcellent book. (In my haste, however, I did overlook it, didn't I?Sorry, all.) cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Garrison book Do not overlook the book by list member Ray Gould either. It is also a great book to have in your library. Here is a picture of Ray's book.Bret Bret'sOven Page(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- from bob@downandacross.com Fri Nov 2 15:46:19 2001 fA2LkI725244 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:46:18 -0600 Subject: RE: Stanley plane I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great.Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloyblades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but Iwould go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message----- Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade tofit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mentionthat the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and thenew "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have the samefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) downto the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who willtrue and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an old one onEbay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? from teekay35@interlynx.net Fri Nov 2 15:59:18 2001 fA2LxH725968 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:59:17 -0600 Subject: Re: Urac/Ammonium Chloride I use Casco/Borden which is the same as Urac with the 10% ammoniumchloride.My basement workshop is about 60 to 65 degrees F. and the open time is farmore than enough to do a butt, mid, and two tips. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Nov 2 16:22:31 2001 fA2MMU727138 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:22:30 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I have some old planes I would like to get rid of. Where should I list them on Ebay?Bret(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) should I list them on Ebay?Bret(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Fri Nov 2 16:59:56 2001 fA2Mxs729076 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:59:55 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:49:42 -0600 Subject: RE: I forgot one I'll buy that. What makes the spiral recover faster? Thanks -- TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: I forgot one In a message dated 10/30/1 11:45:53 PM, Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.comwrites: Hi Troy - Others have also noticed that casters at all levels seem to do a bit better with the spiral rods. It is no mystery. The spiral rods recover a bit faster than a comparable straight rod. Faster recovery = faster line speed = a longer cast. Since the rod is doing this regardless of thecaster's technique, everyone from snake floggers to experts benefit to one extent or another. from jojo@ipa.net Fri Nov 2 17:17:06 2001 fA2NH5700885 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:17:05 -0600 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:17:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Glue! U-40 Rodbond for reel seats, Epon 826 resin with Epi-cure 3164 for ferrules. M-D Looking for opinions on what is the best, better way to glue on reel seats, ferrules etc. What glues do people like? Pete from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Nov 2 17:37:37 2001 fA2Nba703004 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:37:36 -0600 Subject: soaking strips rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I am getting ready to try the soaking of strips before I plane and was wondering. How many guys are doing this and what are your opinions on this method. I plan on soaking them in a PVC tube overnight. Is this long enough or possibly too long? Should I straighten before soaking or straighten them while they are wet? I am eager to try this method.Bret(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) I am getting ready to try the soaking of strips before I plane try this method.Bret(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from jvswan@earthlink.net Fri Nov 2 18:05:03 2001 fA3052705365 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:05:02 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Subject: RALI planes OK, one more plane question (by the way, thanks to all who offered theiropinions on the previous plane issue of the day). Has anyone had any experience with the "RALI Swiss Smoothing Planes" thatwere recently sold by WoodCraft? They look pretty slick, and seem kind ofsmall. Are they any good? Jason from bob@downandacross.com Fri Nov 2 18:08:10 2001 fA3089705707 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:08:09 -0600 , Subject: RE: soaking strips I usually wait between 24-48 hours. I think it reduces the chip out at thenodes (as Adam I believe relayed from Jim Reams). I flame, split or saw theculm, flatten and straighten, bevel on the JW beveller, soak, and then planeon the Hand Mill to 30-40 thou over. Now that I have your oven (LOOKSAWESOME!), I will bind and heat treat (will make the sections verystraight), then straighten and flatten again if needed, then final plane thetreated strips the last little bit. They will have shrunk a bit while heattreating after the soak. Then I will mist them or leave them out in the shopto regain enough moisture to glue up. URAC them, then heat set the Urac.Obviously now that I have a really quality oven, I have changed the routinea bit. IN the past when I used the Hand Mill for roughing and final planing,I would straighten and flattened the wet strips and then I would rough themwet and final plane them after they air dried out.I have noticed that the soaking can tend to bring back the curves and bumpsat the nodes just as reheating them does. I am interested in hearing howothers eliminate their hard work in straughtening and flattening coming backto haunt them when the nodes and sweeps pop back up.Best regards,Bob-----Original Message----- From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: soaking strips I am getting ready to try the soaking of strips before I plane and waswondering. How many guys are doing this and what are your opinions on thismethod. I plan on soaking them in a PVC tube overnight. Is this longenough or possibly too long? Should I straighten before soaking orstraighten them while they are wet? I am eager to try this method.Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) usually wait between 24-48 hours. I think it reduces the chip out at the = (as Adam I believe relayed from Jim Reams). I flame, split or saw the = flatten and straighten, bevel on the JW beveller, soak, and then plane = Hand Mill to 30-40 thou over. Now that I have your oven (LOOKS = little bit. They will have shrunk a bit while heat treating after the = I will mist them or leave them out in the shop to regain enough moisture = up. URAC them, then heat set the Urac.Obviously now that I have a really quality oven, I have changed = routine a bit. IN the past when I used the Hand Mill for roughing and = planing, I would straighten and flattened the wet strips and then I = them wet and final plane them after they air dried out. = noticed that the soaking can tend to bring back the curves and bumps at = eliminate their hard work in straughtening and flattening coming back to = them when the nodes and sweeps pop back up. regards,Bob Grhghlndr@aol.comSent: Friday, November 02, 2001 stripsI am getting ready to try= =(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Nov 2 19:00:49 2001 fA310m707063 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:00:48 -0600 Subject: Re: soaking strips rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Bret,I soak my strips before planing and they do cut a loteasier. I soak overnight. Don't take them out of the water untilyou are ready to cut them. They dry out fast. And remember toallow for shrinkage. Usually around 20% Dave L. http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from ChristopherO@epicimaging.com Fri Nov 2 19:42:25 2001 fA31gO708635 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:42:24 -0600 id ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:31:25 -0800 lblove@omniglobal.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: soaking strips this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I have made half a dozen rods using soaking prior to planing (I use themorgan handmill). I have had other experienced builders suggest 4 hours, 8hours, 12 hours, as appropriate times for soaking, and tried them all. WhatI do now is if I think about it before hand, I throw the strips in the PVCtube the nite before (8-10 hrs soak), which works great-probably the best ofall. I wipe the strips down with an old cloth (wearing leather gloves toprotect against the inevitable splinters ), and then I plane to roughdimensions (about 20-25% oversized) while wet, then heat treat. I havefound that only the outer cane soaks up the water; by the time I'm nearrough dimensions the cane is very dry again. Then I heat temper, and do thefinal planing to specs.I like starting with wet strips and ending with dry (very dry) strips ready Four hours soaking and the cane is a little too dry. More than twelve hoursseems too much, though I haven't tried it. That's how I do it (and I'm sure there are 99 other bald cats out there). chris -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: soaking strips I am getting ready to try the soaking of strips before I plane and waswondering. How many guys are doing this and what are your opinions on thismethod. I plan on soaking them in a PVC tube overnight. Is this longenough or possibly too long? Should I straighten before soaking orstraighten them while they are wet? I am eager to try this method.Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) CleanDocumentEmail MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle- rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso- style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para- margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow- orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} I have made half a dozen rods =usingsoaking prior to planing (I use the morganhandmill).=A0 I have had other =experiencedbuilders suggest 4 hours, 8 hours, 12 hours, as appropriate times for =soaking,and tried them all.=A0 What I =do now is if Ithink about it before hand, I throw the strips in the PVC tube the nite =before(8-10 hrs soak), which works great-probably the best of all. I wipe the =stripsdown with an old cloth (wearing leather gloves to protect against theinevitable splinters ), and then I plane to =roughdimensions (about 20-25% oversized) while wet, then heat treat.=A0 I have found that only the outer =cane soaksup the water; by the time I'm near rough dimensions the cane is very =dryagain.=A0 Then I heat temper, =and do thefinal planing to specs. I like starting with wet strips =and endingwith dry (very dry) strips ready for the =oven. Four hours soaking and the cane =is a little too dry.=A0 Morethan twelve hours seems too much, though I haven't tried =it. That's how I do it (and I'msure there are 99 other bald cats out =there). chris -----Original =Message-----From: Grhghlndr@aol.com Sent: Friday, November =02, 20013:37 PM jbbamboo@hotmail.com;lblove@omniglobal.net; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: soaking =strips I am getting ready to try the soaking of =strips before are your straighten to trythis method.Bret(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Nov 2 19:55:15 2001 fA31tE709375 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:55:15 -0600 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:55:19 -0500 Subject: Garrison Book Bought Thanks to all who helped me out trying to getcopy of Garrison/Carmichael Book.:)) I got Lucky the book was $70, but I had accumulated $36of points on my Cabela's card so I got it for $34Thanks to Robert Kope (the most) for his excellent suggestion.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Thanks to all who helped me out trying to getcopy of Garrison/Carmichael Book.:)) Thanks to Robert Kope (the most) for his excellent =suggestion.:)) www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from flyfish@defnet.com Fri Nov 2 20:10:23 2001 fA32AM710161 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:10:22 -0600 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:10:28 -0500 Subject: My new motor! There are some really cool people on this list!Thanks to David Rinker who sent me a dip tank motor .He gave it too me for free:))How cool is that! and its a nice motor too.Thanks David.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} There are some really cool people on this list!Thanks to David Rinker who sent me a dip tank motor .He gave it too me for free:))How cool is that! and its a nice motor too.Thanks David.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Nov 2 20:27:51 2001 fA32Ro711036 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:27:50 -0600 Subject: USPS rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Is anyone experiencing sloooooooow mail service. I mailed out something to a list member over a week ago and he has still not received it. I know I did get a package today that took 11 days from PA to MI but is it just me?Bret(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) mailed out something to a list member over a week ago and he has still not PA to MI but is it just me?Bret(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Nov 2 20:31:51 2001 fA32Vo711400 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:31:50 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and astandardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you willpaythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great.Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloyblades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but Iwould go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock bladetofit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mentionthat the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 andthenew "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have the samefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.)downto the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who willtrue and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an old oneonEbay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? from Troutgetter@aol.com Fri Nov 2 20:31:54 2001 fA32Vr711407 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:31:53 -0600 Subject: Re: soaking strips rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Hi Bret,I usually soak for about two days. Bamboo flies off like slices of butter! I flame and straighten before soaking (this also helps them slip into the pvc tube). I once forgot a set of strips for almost two weeks. I decided to try them anyway and found that they do not SEEM to soak up any more waterthan they would in a few days. I would caution you to open the tube outside if they are soaked for more than a few days. Ahh ... there's nothing more aeromatic (except maybe bong water I've been told) than over soakedbamboo! Maybe because I flame first, a two week soaking did no harm, I don't know. I plane to .040 over final. Bind and throw the strips in the oven to roast out the last of the water. The strips dry fast as you plane and you should let unplaned strips soak in the tube as you plane other strips. At least, that's what I've found.Mike Shay Hi Bret,I usually soak for about two days. Bamboo flies off like slices of butter! Iflame and straighten before soaking (this also helps them slip into the pvctube). I once forgot a set of strips for almost two weeks. I decided to trythem anyway and found that they do not SEEM to soak up any more waterthan they would in a few days. I would caution you to open the tube outside ifthey are soaked for more than a few days. Ahh ... there's nothing moreaeromatic (except maybe bong water I've been told) than over soakedbamboo! Maybe because I flame first, a two week soaking did no harm, I don'tknow. I plane to .040 over final. Bind and throw the strips in the oven toroast out the last of the water. The strips dry fast as you plane and youshould let unplaned strips soak in the tube as you plane other strips. Atleast, that's what I've found.Mike Shay from frank.haran@sympatico.ca Fri Nov 2 20:40:13 2001 fA32eD712191 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:40:13 -0600 Subject: Advice to a newbie Thanks to everyone who replied to me on and off list regarding my questionabout the Garrison book. I will read the book and try to absorb as much aspossible but will return to it once I actually start planing bamboo. One thread of advice for a newbie like me that came out of a lot of the 1. Attend gatherings, and2. Get some rod building lessons or tutorage. This therefore leads me to my next questions:1. When is the next gathering in Fergus, Ontario.2. Is there anyone in the Ottawa, Canada area that offers lessons. I amwilling to travel reasonable far from the Ottawa area. If nobody in theOttawa area offers lessons is there anyone in the area who could spare afewhours showing me a few things? Many Thanks, Frank. from jvswan@earthlink.net Fri Nov 2 20:49:56 2001 fA32nt712711 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:49:55 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Hi Terry, That is certainly something to think about. Having very little experiencewith plane blades, I rely, to a large extent, on the general consensus ofthe experienced rodmakers on the list. Since all of those who responded tomy query today admitted the superiority of the Hock blade, even if they usethe stock blade, I kind of feel like it is worth a shot. If it isn't thehardness, then there must be something worth paying $40 for in thoseblades. So, my analytical side is telling me now, if Hock and Stanley or Record orwhomever, use different sources of steel for the irons, then they mostlikely have different compositions. As inexperienced as I am with thesethings, it still makes sense to me that the relative hardness of thoseblades must be different. If I remember the Hock propaganda, I seem toremember them fiddling with the crystaline structure of the steel as well,with their cryogenic, super cooling process. Different alloys, differentcarbon content, different tempering processes, different hardness. Wouldn'tthat be so? So, how can the two blades be the same? Any opinions (like Ihave to ask, right?)? Anyway, having two blades isn't a bad thing, in any case. Thanks for the discussion, Jason On 11/2/01 7:33 PM, "T. Ackland" wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and astandardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you willpaythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great.Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloyblades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but Iwould go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock bladetofit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mentionthat the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 andthenew "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have thesamefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.)downto the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who willtrue and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an old oneonEbay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? from dstreight@yarcom.com Fri Nov 2 20:59:03 2001 fA32x2713261 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:59:02 -0600 0800 Subject: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine I am sincerely sorry for dredging up this subject and will accept anyflames I deserve but I need a simple favor from the list. Can anyoneprovide me the full name of the individual responsible for the fraudulentbehavior on the subject website? I had ordered some back issues on 30August and, as you all predicited, have received nothing but two lameexcuses for an expanation as to why I have not seen any magazines. Since Ipaid throught Paypal, this individual has my money. I have initiated an effort to get him removed from the Paypal sellerslistand I will be contacting VISA, his website host, Pacbell (his email), andonce I have a name and address, his local business associations, consumeradvocacy groups, and perhaps a lawyer. I am tired of being f'd with by thisguy and since I have the time and resources to stop him from doing it toanyone else, figured I'd go after him a bit. Thanks for the help. Any info appreciated. David A. Streight, Ph.D., C.E.Vice President, Special Programsv: 703.624.8193f: 703.421.7059p: 703.903.6369dstreight@yarcom.com from bob@downandacross.com Fri Nov 2 21:02:45 2001 fA332h713577 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:02:43 -0600 Subject: RE: Stanley plane Really. Thanks goodness I got it to try for free. I like the old blades invintage planes, but the A-2 seems like the next best of the blades I have.The old Stanley is as good if not better. The Record blade (stock) waspretty fair to poor.Thanks,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Stanley plane Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and astandardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you willpaythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great.Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloyblades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but Iwould go for the Record and Hock. from dstreight@yarcom.com Fri Nov 2 21:07:28 2001 fA337R714061 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:07:27 -0600 0800 Subject: RE: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine Got the info. Thanks. Good thing I'll be in Southern California for theend of November. Think I'll stop by the office and get my magazines. Dave -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 10:00 PM Subject: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine I am sincerely sorry for dredging up this subject and willaccept anyflames I deserve but I need a simple favor from the list. Can anyoneprovide me the full name of the individual responsible for the fraudulentbehavior on the subject website? I had ordered some back issues on 30August and, as you all predicited, have received nothing but two lameexcuses for an expanation as to why I have not seen anymagazines. Since Ipaid throught Paypal, this individual has my money.I have initiated an effort to get him removed from thePaypal sellers listand I will be contacting VISA, his website host, Pacbell (his email), andonce I have a name and address, his local business associations, consumeradvocacy groups, and perhaps a lawyer. I am tired of being f'dwith by thisguy and since I have the time and resources to stop him from doing it toanyone else, figured I'd go after him a bit.Thanks for the help. Any info appreciated. David A. Streight, Ph.D., C.E.Vice President, Special Programsv: 703.624.8193f: 703.421.7059p: 703.903.6369dstreight@yarcom.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 21:19:00 2001 fA33Ix714687 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:18:59 -0600 Nov 2001 19:19:01 PST Subject: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine if this stuff is still going on i would suggest thatyou have your lawyer draft a letter to the attornygeneral of california. this has gotten beyond, " oops!i'm sorry, i had some bad luck." timothy --- "David A. Streight" wrote: I am sincerely sorry for dredging up this subjectand will accept anyflames I deserve but I need a simple favor from thelist. Can anyoneprovide me the full name of the individualresponsible for the fraudulentbehavior on the subject website? I had ordered someback issues on 30August and, as you all predicited, have receivednothing but two lameexcuses for an expanation as to why I have not seenany magazines. Since Ipaid throught Paypal, this individual has my money.I have initiated an effort to get him removed fromthe Paypal sellers listand I will be contacting VISA, his website host,Pacbell (his email), andonce I have a name and address, his local businessassociations, consumeradvocacy groups, and perhaps a lawyer. I am tiredof being f'd with by thisguy and since I have the time and resources to stophim from doing it toanyone else, figured I'd go after him a bit.Thanks for the help. Any info appreciated. David A. Streight, Ph.D., C.E.Vice President, Special Programsv: 703.624.8193f: 703.421.7059p: 703.903.6369dstreight@yarcom.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from bob@downandacross.com Fri Nov 2 21:21:48 2001 fA33Ll714987 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:21:47 -0600 2 Nov 2001 22:21:48 -0500 Subject: epoxy...almost blew it Thanks to whoever gave the idea about using heat to remove bubbles in theirclear drip tube. I was doing a rod tonight for a customer, and have beenhaving good results with using rod wrapping epoxy for a thin coat to set upthe blank to ferrule wrap. After stirring, I got a huge amount of bubbles,so I began to panick. For some stupid reason, I had already wrapped all theguides on, and I thought...what a mess I have created! NO, I don;t use it onthe wraps themselves...I ain't a barbarian!I remembered the tip, so I took my heat gun and let a stream of low heat rununderneath the epoxy as the tips spun in the rod wrapper. The bubblesdisappeared and the epoxy thinned out a bit and began to flow very verysmoothly giving what seems like a perfect coat. We will see later, but Ithink this worked out okay.Another thing I had good results with tonight. If you have a Sully's doublerod turner, use some dowels (I think the ones I used were 3/4" and a perfectfit for the mounts). Center drill and drill in the lathe, and then ream ahole 2/64s bigger than the ferrule size (that's how I make my femaleferrules, and most others are close). This gives a snug fit that allows themales to meet the motor and turn very snugly.Hopefully this will still be working well tomorrow. Thanks again to thelist... Bob from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Nov 2 21:22:22 2001 fA33MM715111 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:22:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Jason,do you think that Stanley, a company that has been making planes for closeto 200years somehow does not know how to chose the correct steel and hardenand temper ablade?Plane makers induction harden their blades and only about the first , say,1/2inch, so that the the adjusting part of the blade remains soft and does notwearthe mating part etc.If you have an old plane and you can file the blade at the cutting edge itneedsreplacing with a $2.50 replacement.Being a tool and die maker, steel is also something I know a little about andcouldhave an argument with on the list. The group is well meaning but not correctall ofthe time.Terry Jason Swan wrote: Hi Terry, That is certainly something to think about. Having very little experiencewith plane blades, I rely, to a large extent, on the general consensus ofthe experienced rodmakers on the list. Since all of those who responded tomy query today admitted the superiority of the Hock blade, even if theyusethe stock blade, I kind of feel like it is worth a shot. If it isn't thehardness, then there must be something worth paying $40 for in thoseblades. So, my analytical side is telling me now, if Hock and Stanley or Record orwhomever, use different sources of steel for the irons, then they mostlikely have different compositions. As inexperienced as I am with thesethings, it still makes sense to me that the relative hardness of thoseblades must be different. If I remember the Hock propaganda, I seem toremember them fiddling with the crystaline structure of the steel as well,with their cryogenic, super cooling process. Different alloys, differentcarbon content, different tempering processes, different hardness. Wouldn'tthat be so? So, how can the two blades be the same? Any opinions (like Ihave to ask, right?)? Anyway, having two blades isn't a bad thing, in any case. Thanks for the discussion, Jason On 11/2/01 7:33 PM, "T. Ackland" wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and astandardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except youwillpaythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great.Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloyblades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but Iwould go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hockblade tofit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the listmentionthat the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2and thenew "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have thesamefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.)downto the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who willtrue and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an oldone onEbay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? from jvswan@earthlink.net Fri Nov 2 21:25:42 2001 fA33Pf715642 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:25:41 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Thanks Terry, for the info. My mistake. Jason On 11/2/01 8:22 PM, "T. Ackland" wrote: Jason,do you think that Stanley, a company that has been making planes forclose to200years somehow does not know how to chose the correct steel and hardenandtemper ablade?Plane makers induction harden their blades and only about the first , say,1/2inch, so that the the adjusting part of the blade remains soft and does notwearthe mating part etc.If you have an old plane and you can file the blade at the cutting edge itneedsreplacing with a $2.50 replacement.Being a tool and die maker, steel is also something I know a little about andcouldhave an argument with on the list. The group is well meaning but notcorrectall ofthe time.Terry Jason Swan wrote: Hi Terry, That is certainly something to think about. Having very little experiencewith plane blades, I rely, to a large extent, on the general consensus ofthe experienced rodmakers on the list. Since all of those who respondedtomy query today admitted the superiority of the Hock blade, even if theyusethe stock blade, I kind of feel like it is worth a shot. If it isn't thehardness, then there must be something worth paying $40 for in thoseblades. So, my analytical side is telling me now, if Hock and Stanley or Record orwhomever, use different sources of steel for the irons, then they mostlikely have different compositions. As inexperienced as I am with thesethings, it still makes sense to me that the relative hardness of thoseblades must be different. If I remember the Hock propaganda, I seem toremember them fiddling with the crystaline structure of the steel as well,with their cryogenic, super cooling process. Different alloys, differentcarbon content, different tempering processes, different hardness. Wouldn'tthat be so? So, how can the two blades be the same? Any opinions (like Ihave to ask, right?)? Anyway, having two blades isn't a bad thing, in any case. Thanks for the discussion, Jason On 11/2/01 7:33 PM, "T. Ackland" wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and astandardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except youwillpaythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great.Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloyblades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but Iwould go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hockblade tofit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the listmentionthat the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2and thenew "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have thesamefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.)downto the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who willtrue and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an oldoneonEbay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? from martinrjensen@home.com Fri Nov 2 21:30:10 2001 fA33UA716128 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:30:10 -0600 femail31.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:30:08 -0800 Subject: RE: Ferrules for the 8 and 6 in 1 Seeing as most of the fit is done on the male end, the response to "tryit an see" is probably about as good as you can expect. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- DNHayashida@aol.com Subject: Ferrules for the 8 and 6 in 1 Everyone I contacted about a set of ferrules where one male will fitinto two females weren't much help. Either I got no response at all orit was a "Buy two ferrule sets and try it" answer. Not very helpful.This just might be the impetus to get me to make my own ferrules. Darryl Hayashida CleanDocumentEmail MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle- rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso- style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para- margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow- orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} Seeing as most of the fit is done =on themale end, the response to “try it an see” is probably about =as goodas you can expect. Martin =Jensen = -----Original =Message-----From:owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = DNHayashida@aol.comSent: Friday, November =02, 200110:55 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Ferrules for the=8 and 6in 1 Everyone I contacted about a set of ferrules where one male will fit =into twofemales weren't much help. Either I got no response at all or it was a"Buy two ferrule sets and try it" answer. Not very helpful. =This justmight be the impetus to get me to make my own ferrules. Darryl Hayashida from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Nov 2 21:34:45 2001 fA33Yi716503 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:34:44 -0600 Subject: Re: Advice to a newbie Frank,just get some forms and start planing, You do not need lessons it is reallyeasy. Make a rod (s) with the tapers in the Garrison book and only get intothemath if you find that the rod is a dream to cast. I never did on both counts.I am in Montreal and If you want to drive up to bandit country and collectthemyou can borrow my planing forms for for a while and I could even sort outsomescrap cane to practice on.Terry Frank and Faith wrote: Thanks to everyone who replied to me on and off list regarding my questionabout the Garrison book. I will read the book and try to absorb as much aspossible but will return to it once I actually start planing bamboo. One thread of advice for a newbie like me that came out of a lot of the 1. Attend gatherings, and2. Get some rod building lessons or tutorage. This therefore leads me to my next questions:1. When is the next gathering in Fergus, Ontario.2. Is there anyone in the Ottawa, Canada area that offers lessons. I amwilling to travel reasonable far from the Ottawa area. If nobody in theOttawa area offers lessons is there anyone in the area who could spare afewhours showing me a few things? Many Thanks, Frank. from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Nov 2 21:58:59 2001 fA33ww717535 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:58:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane It might be a nice experiment if you have an old blade just to heat just thecutting edge up to cherry red and plunging it in water. The hardness wouldnotneed to be drawn back for planing bamboo.Terry Bob Maulucci wrote: Really. Thanks goodness I got it to try for free. I like the old blades invintage planes, but the A-2 seems like the next best of the blades I have.The old Stanley is as good if not better. The Record blade (stock) waspretty fair to poor.Thanks,Bob -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:33 PM Cc: jvswan@earthlink.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and astandardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you willpaythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great.Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloyblades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but Iwould go for the Record and Hock. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Nov 2 22:19:18 2001 fA34JH718485 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:19:17 -0600 ([209.178.134.181] helo=g2t8c9) id 15zsGN-0004z8-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:18:32 -0800 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Give me a break, a Hock blade will cost less then a good reelseat. And alot less then a pair of cutters on a mill. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Stanley plane Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standard blade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will pay through the nose for the HockTerry from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Fri Nov 2 22:20:33 2001 fA34KX718710 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:20:33 -0600 Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:20:34 -0800 Sat, 03 Nov 2001 04:20:34 GMT rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Ferrules for the 8 and 6 in 1 FILETIME=[E231DE40:01C1641E] Martin: you put them on a rod, such as Jeff Wagner did in his excellentdemonstration at the Grayrock's Gathering this summer. By doing the fittingbefore installing the ferrule's onto the rod, you'd have no problem if themale's didn't fit into both female's, which is what I think you're trying to do? response to "try Ferrules for the 8 and 6 in 1 male will fit response at all or helpful. ferrules. Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Nov 2 22:29:05 2001 fA34T5719321 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:29:05 -0600 ([209.178.134.181] helo=g2t8c9) id 15zsQh-00051a-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:29:11 -0800 "Rodmakers@Wugate. Wustl. Edu" Subject: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine David, Being that you will be in SO. Cal. at the end of November are you going tothe Marriott's Flyfishing Fair? If so let me know maybe we can do lunch. Adam Vigil from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Nov 2 23:08:15 2001 fA358D720808 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:08:13 -0600 Subject: Re: Ackland Cronicles Well, I've said about all I can on the subject. The point is the numbers of a taper do NOTHING AT ALL and MEAN NOTHING AT ALL except relatenumerically what a a blank is doing at a certain point along it's length.It's not the numbers, it's the rod and the action that matter in the end so altering a few numbers here and there so you can split hairs as to if it is or is not the same taper means nothing if the rod has the same or similar action. Looking at it from the point of view of the numbers is putting the horse before the cart.If by altering the action of Garrison tapers made them more to your liking you have achieved a different action therefor a different rod. The taper numbers will reflect this and my bet would be the numbers would be quite at a variance, not just by a little bit.Either the rod has a certain action or it doesn't, it's pretty simple. This is also way off the track of the original point I was making. Like it or not, if I ever got and made a rod using one of your tapers I'd pen in your name as the designer, just like everybody else who designed the taper I use. Tony At 08:56 AM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: TonyDo not agree with that at all. I think the usual, fast,medium or parabolic etc. isperfectly adequate unless you feel that mentioning Young or Dickerson will explainthe action.These names will of only mean anything to a dedicated cane man andnothing to mostso at best serves little purpose.I think you have to get all this rod history stuff into perspective and understandthat It may be important to us but not to the majority.I used to sail an International 14 and the history of the class was reallyfascinating but only for those that sailed the bloody things.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry, Tony,rod makers have been stealing each others tapers from day one. Whocan saywith allhonesty who was the original designer of a particular taper even if ithasbeenattributed to a certain maker. The history of rodmaking is just full ofstorieslegends and half truths. That's not actually the issue. The designer of the taper is either the truedesigner or the person who developed the taper the action of the rod ismaking. If the identity of the true originator is lost in the fog of bamboowar that's a shame but presumably the person who becomes known forthetaper has improved it sufficiently for it to become a very popular rodaction by way of also developing other similar tapers which are alsopopular so it wont just happen by mistake.I also rather think the actual tapers themselves would not be attributedincorrectly very often at all in fact.The Sir D is a taper that does prove what you say and is a bitunfortunatein a way but that probably only occurred due to the fast communicationsamonst a lot of people only recently possible.Still, I always thought the WC 7' #4 (Sir D) was closely related to the PHYrods and although I forget what Wayne wrote about it's development thatguess was about right so it's not that hard to pick where the basis of thedevelopment came from. It obviously wasn't a Dickerson. I would have thought that every conceivable permutation of a goodfishablerod hasalready been made so we could all be copying. I think so too, so all this argument I'm making is not self serving. Inever plan on intentionally developing my own taper simply because I'vefound several I think are so good there is no point in my mind spendingtime doing it.Having said that you can't mistake a Driggs for a Payne 98 or a PM Midgewith a PHY Midge etc. The actions are pretty obviously from certain stables. I've said it many times that IMHO you can vary quite a bit with thedimensions and still have a rod that is the action you're wanting,modifying a few numbers makes a different taper but not necessarily anewaction in most cases.If you've altered the action you have a different rod.If on the other hand the action is similar the numbers may not agree butthe rod is the basically the same. You can see that just by looking at allthe different tapers used by the original makers themselves.They either thought the action was too close to the original to warrant aname change or wanted to sell the new taper based on the reputation oftheoriginal taper. Same difference in the end and it's THIS point I think iswhy the designer's name should be mentioned on a rod built to his/her design. It doesn't matter that it's not exactly the same, the action is what wasdesired and if it's built right that's what you'll have. I cannot see the big deal with borrowing tapers. My first rods were good old Garrisons' (which I did mention) and I could not cast them as most guyscannot so Ibeefed them up to suit me.What should I have called my new tapers, modified Garrisons' orAcklandtapers? Icalled them a fast dryfly developed by me, is that wrong? You've quite obviously altered the action. If you can't cast the rod beforealtering the taper but like the action after changing the taper it's bydefinition a different action therefore not the same as the original and isan Ackland taper, no question about it. You haven't just added a brand toacow to make it look like yours you've made your own branding iron andusedit on your own cow to use a western movie example.If all you did was beef the butt a little but it's still the same actionwith less movement in the handle it's a modification. If you tie a Royal Coachman using a Timco hook then use a Mustad is it adifferent fly? I think not.What is it if you use purple rather than red in the body? Open forargumentI guess, possibly. In fact there must be a fly with this and it's likely adifferent name.How about not only purple body but a deer hair wing? There is an obviouspoint of departure. I do not see how you can make tapers freely available and expect to have some control on how they are used. I have opinions and this is the place for these ones I have for a changebut I'm no fascist, I don't approve of guilds and governing bodies andmostcertainly am not going to try to force my ideas upon anybody but I woulddebate it.You are right, you can't prevent people doing what they like with tapers,it's up to the conscience of each maker to do as he/she wishes. Exactlylike what you do with trout you catch where you can take them butdo/don'tdepending on the person. If you're making a rod to use who cares??? It's not an issue at all.IMHO it's not correct to use a living maker's taper if permission is notgiven and the rod is sold under any circumstancesIf the rod is sold at all it comes down to the person. I prefer to givecredit where it's due so I mention the designer. I personally think it's abit of bad form to not do so but I wouldn't think badly of a person whodoesn't because I'm obviously not speaking for all and who's to say I'mright. TerryYou have done this before Tony, jump in with both barrels when I replytoone ofyour countrymen. It was only one barrel loaded with #6 shot but it's a short coming wehave,called mateship, one in all in. Stupid concept but there it is [:-)] Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Nov 2 23:08:15 2001 fA358D720809 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:08:13 -0600 Subject: Re: Garrison book This is the most balanced and accurate review I've seen on this book and should be put somewhere easily accessed when the question arises(Todd????) Tony At 09:41 AM 11/2/01 -0500, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Frank, You will not be wasting your time reading Garrison. He was not, however,the god of all information on rod building. He was an engineer with anextraordinarily precise mind and an equally extraordinarily gifted pair ofhands. Bamboo rods had fallen almost completely out of favor with the fishingpublic by the 1970s, and there were almost no known amateur builders atthat time. Carmichael's intention was to chronicle the work of perhaps theonly living expert--and surely the only man willing to share, openly, hisinformation and processes. It is largely because of those factors thatGarrison is regarded as our "deity," and not so much because we need tothink of his way as being the only way (and certainly not any longer). The book exists as it does largely because Hoagy Carmichael wished to payhomage to everything that his friend, "Gary," knew. And this meantphotographing and explaining every step that Gary took--as well asaccounting for all of Gary's complicated mathamatical formulae. This lateris the part (for the newcomer to the craft, particularly), that constitutesthe really tough going. On the purely practical side of rod-building, again, Garrison/Carmichael"walk" us through a great many steps that are presented as beingabsolutelyessential, when, in fact, many of these steps and considerations are notnecessarily essential at all. It was usually just Garrison'sultra-fastidious mind at work, and Carmichael's wish to honor, completely,his mentor/friend. Garrison's math was surely the core of all his successful rods, but theirony is that you and I don't really need that part of the book at all--noteven to build truly exceptional rods. I have been designing and buildingfly rods since the mid-nineteen seventies, but I do not understandmathamatics beyond simple arithmetic. Complicated mathematics are veryhelpful to some builders, but by no means essential to the design process.There are other ways, equally effective. You and I just don't need thosecomplicated mathematics any longer, as there are now literally hundreds oftapers available to us, not to mention the rather remarkable "Hexagraph"system that Wayne Cattanach developed. Gary did his engineering calculations because that is the way HIS mindneeded to understand things, and also because, at the time he beganbuilding(the 1930s), the only other builders were largely commercial, and theyweren't sharing information (as we do now). Gary's good friend, Dr. Parker Holden ("Idyl of The Split Cane," 1919),helped him enormously in the beginning, but Holden was influenced by RobertCrompton, and the two of them had already become powerful advocates ofthefive-strip fly rod. Tapers for six-strip rods that were to Garrison'sliking weren't publicly available in the 1930s (as they certainly are now),so he felt he needed to develop a system of mathematical calculations thatwould yield rods of similar action all across the spectrum of lengths andline-weights. It was the first such attempt, and while some currentbuilders may take exception to Garrison's engineering principles,nevertheless, Garrison's system produced a series of truly remarkablerods. I would never wish to be critical in any negative sense of either Garrisonor Carmichael. The fact was that (apart from the limited andlong-out-of-print information in the Holden, Herter, Kreider and McClanebooks) there were no truly complete books on bamboo rod-building availablein the 1970s. Garrison/Carmichael had a truly unique opportunity to fillthat gap. So, if there is anything at all to be wary of, it is perhaps thatthe book has within it a good deal of "overkill." We get a much more detailabout Garrison's procedures than is actually needed. (Indeed, Garrisonprobably became involved in a great deal more detail than he, himself,needed. But it is the way he did things.) Carmichael's focus was partly upon what another amateur builder wouldneedto know, but it was much more intent upon saying everything possible aboutGarrison. So, the book is both a "how-to" manual, and a tribute to Garrisonhimself. It's this latter part of Carmichael's focus that perhaps goesbeyond what the start-up builder really needs. So, as they say, take whatyou like, and leave the rest. The Garrison book may tell you more than youneed to know (sometimes to the point of irrelevance?), but it will not leadyou astray. As to other, contemporary books that you might find more "user- friendly,"there are also (in addition to Cattenach) books by George Maurer and JackHowell. Any of these will serve you very well, indeed, in your desire tobuild a rod. Later, you can return to Garrison, and appreciate hiscontributions in a somewhat different different perspective. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Frank and Faith" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:13 PMSubject: Garrison book I am still new to this game - getting the tools together. I have purchased the Cattanach book and video and have read and watched them a numberoftimes. The other day I borrowed the Garrison/Carmichael book from thelibrary. On my first skimming the book seems to be quite heavy going. Arecent number of posts now suggest to me that I am wasting my timetrying to absorb the contents of this book. My question is am I waisting my time with this book and should I avoid it because he makes the rod making processtocomplex? Cheers, Frank.-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu "noneSent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmakers I would also call the biggest B.S. : computer generated designs and stress curves. Also the Garrison book which was entirely written by HoagyCarmichael I believe to make rodmaking seem more difficult than it is. Case in point, I have been involved in it for over 15 years and have only met 1 person that failed at the craft and that is because of a lack of love forit. Marty /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from teekay35@interlynx.net Fri Nov 2 23:33:21 2001 fA35XL722358 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:33:21 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane I have 7 planes sitting on my bench, some with the original high carbonblade , several with Hock blades, one A2 blade, and one experimentalhighspeed steel blade. I find myself using the high speed steel blade forall planing up to the last .010". For finishing I use the Lee Valley blockplane with an A2 blade. The high speed steel blade was made by a tool makerfriend from HSS power hacksaw blade. The blade was cut out with an electro-spark discharge machine, surface ground, and given no additional heattreating. It stays sharp!!! I think, however, that if you have straight nodes and a super sharp blade itprobably doesn't matter what kind of blade you use. Just sharpen moreoften. from martinrjensen@home.com Sat Nov 3 01:03:06 2001 fA3730725552 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 01:03:00 -0600 femail30.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:03:02 -0800 Subject: RE: Stanley plane You know Terry, I would agree with you regarding the Hock blade but.....I bought one and was really skeptical about it. I really thought I hadwasted my money, but it seems to take a sharper edge and hold it a bitlonger. Now I don't really know if it takes a sharper edge but I do knowthat it sure seemed easier to plane with and I can plane longer before Iresharpen than my Stanley blade. I noticed this difference immediately.The thing is here, I wasn't expecting it to work better. I thought itwould work just as well as the Stanley, just not better so I wassurprised when I noticed a difference. I never did a good fair test forcomparisons sake though, I will grant you that. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Stanley plane It might be a nice experiment if you have an old blade just to heat justthecutting edge up to cherry red and plunging it in water. The hardnesswould notneed to be drawn back for planing bamboo.Terry Bob Maulucci wrote: Really. Thanks goodness I got it to try for free. I like the old blades in vintage planes, but the A-2 seems like the next best of the blades I have. The old Stanley is as good if not better. The Record blade (stock) waspretty fair to poor.Thanks,Bob -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:33 PM Cc: jvswan@earthlink.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. from ajthramer@hotmail.com Sat Nov 3 03:37:20 2001 fA39bJ727515 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 03:37:19 -0600 Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:35:12 -0800 Sat, 03 Nov 2001 08:35:12 GMT Subject: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine FILETIME=[7487A3B0:01C16442] BACK ISSUES? ...BACK ISSUES!!? Count yourself darned fortunate if all you were $%%**&&#@@^^%$$# were some back issues! Marko buddy had betterkeep well clear, he's on the short list.A.J. From: "David A. Streight" Subject: Bamboo Flyrod MagazineDate: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:00:27 -0500 I am sincerely sorry for dredging up this subject and will accept anyflames I deserve but I need a simple favor from the list. Can anyoneprovide me the full name of the individual responsible for the fraudulentbehavior on the subject website? I had ordered some back issues on 30August and, as you all predicited, have received nothing but two lameexcuses for an expanation as to why I have not seen any magazines. Since Ipaid throught Paypal, this individual has my money.I have initiated an effort to get him removed from the Paypal sellers listand I will be contacting VISA, his website host, Pacbell (his email), andonce I have a name and address, his local business associations, consumeradvocacy groups, and perhaps a lawyer. I am tired of being f'd with by thisguy and since I have the time and resources to stop him from doing it toanyone else, figured I'd go after him a bit.Thanks for the help. Any info appreciated. David A. Streight, Ph.D., C.E.Vice President, Special Programsv: 703.624.8193f: 703.421.7059p: 703.903.6369dstreight@yarcom.com _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from briansr@point-net.com Sat Nov 3 03:55:15 2001 fA39tD727706 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 03:55:13 -0600 Sat, 3 Nov 2001 05:15:40 -0500 , Subject: Re: USPS Hi BretHow about 9 weeks,7 weeks and 5 weeks wait for some documents from the=Smithsonian NASM !!Cheers Brian Subject: USPS Is anyone experiencing sloooooooow mail service. I mailed out =something to a list member over a week ago and he has still not received =it. I know I did get a package today that took 11 days from PA to MI =but is it just me?Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) Hi BretHow about 9 weeks,7 weeks and 5 weeks documents from the Smithsonian NASM !!Cheers Brian ----- Original Message ----- Grhghlndr@aol.com rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: November 2, 2001 9:27 =PMSubject: USPSIs anyone experiencing sloooooooow =(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Nov 3 03:57:12 2001 fA39v5727849 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 03:57:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great.Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloyblades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but Iwould go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock bladetofit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mentionthat the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 andthenew "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have thesamefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.)downto the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who willtrue and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an old one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from petermckean@netspace.net.au Sat Nov 3 07:38:42 2001 fA3Dce729158 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:38:41 -0600 fA3B0jq13168; Subject: Re: soaking strips Bret I soaked the strips for ONE rod - big statistical non event! At the time Ithought it was a great thing, seemed to save time all over the place, andthe bamboo came off in the rough planing like tortellini. I had so much trouble with that rod afterward that I will never soak again. Now I know that is illogical - "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" is the Latin name Fill up your days with really good stuff Peter----- Original Message ----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: soaking strips I am getting ready to try the soaking of strips before I plane and waswondering. How many guys are doing this and what are your opinions on thismethod. I plan on soaking them in a PVC tube overnight. Is this longenough or possibly too long? Should I straighten before soaking orstraighten them while they are wet? I am eager to try this method.Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from flytyr@southshore.com Sat Nov 3 07:41:40 2001 fA3Dfd729185 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:41:40 -0600 fA3Dfkx21707 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:41:46 -0600 Subject: Re: USPS How about 31 days from Arkansas to New Jersey,Insured Priority Mail.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com brian sturrock wrote: Hi BretHow about 9 weeks,7 weeks and 5 weekswait for some documents from the SmithsonianNASM !!Cheers Brian ----- Original Message -----From: Grhghlndr@aol.com eamlee@email.msn.com ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSent: November 2, 2001 9:27 PMSubject: USPSIs anyone experiencing sloooooooowmail service. I mailed out somethingto a list member over a week ago andhe has still not received it. I knowI did get a package today that took 11days from PA to MI but is it just me?Bret(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from pohl@earthlink.net Sat Nov 3 08:52:29 2001 fA3EqT729686 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 08:52:29 -0600 helo=gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net) id 1601aa-0007Y0-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 03 Nov 2001 06:16:00 -0800 helo=pohl) id 1601aY-0005R8-00; Sat, 03 Nov 2001 06:15:59 -0800 Subject: Builder near Albany? Thanks to everone who gave imput to my posts regarding building my firstrod! I'd like to lawn cast the following rods if at all possible. Is theresomeone on here that is close to the Albany/ Saratoga NY region that hasthese rods built that i could try out. Thanks, Mark Payne 97Payne 98Dickerson 7012Garrison 202EGarrison 101Winston 7' 4wtPaul Young "Midge"Paul Young "Smidgen"Leonard 38HLeonard 38Cattanach 7' 4wt from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Nov 3 09:35:15 2001 fA3FZE729991 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:35:14 -0600 helo=albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) id 1602Ug-0002ai-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 03 Nov 2001 07:13:58 -0800 ([209.178.134.245] helo=g2t8c9) id 1602Uc-00035O-00; Sat, 03 Nov 2001 07:13:55 -0800 Subject: Re: USPS How about them saying they have tried to deliver the package 3 times and =never did. No notice, nothing. They held on to it for 2 weeks and I =never would of known anything if I had not called and bitched at them. 2 =weeks ago they turned a 1 day delivery into a 5 day delivery. I only =received it after several phone calls and they admitted they did not =know why the driver had not delivered it. You would think they were working at the DMV or something. Adam Subject: RE: USPS Yes, coast to coast delivery seems to have slowed down by a few extra =days. It could be even longer in those PO's that were shut down for =decontamination and I'm sure there's mail sitting in there waiting for =the decon team. Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) =452-2420 Angling, collecting & rod making books at: = -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: USPS Is anyone experiencing sloooooooow mail service. I mailed out =something to a list member over a week ago and he has still not received =it. I know I did get a package today that took 11 days from PA to MI =but is it just me?Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) How about them saying they have tried= the package 3 times and never did. No notice, nothing. They held on to = weeks and I never would of known anything if I had not called and = only received it after several phone calls and they admitted they did = why the driver had not delivered it. You would think they were working at = something. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Darrell = Sent: Saturday, November 03, = AMSubject: RE: USPS coast to coast delivery seems to have slowed down by a few extra = It could be even longer in those PO's that were shut down for = team. Regards,Darrell LeeAnglers =452- Grhghlndr@aol.comSent: Friday, November 02, 20016:28 = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: = something to a list member over a week ago and he has still not = =(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from darrell@vFish.net Sat Nov 3 09:41:54 2001 fA3Ffs700164 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:41:54 -0600 Sat, 3 Nov 2001 08:12:44 -0600 , Subject: RE: USPS Yes, coast to coast delivery seems to have slowed down by a few extra days.It could be even longer in those PO's that were shut down fordecontamination and I'm sure there's mail sitting in there waiting for thedecon team. Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 ==================Angling, collecting & rod making books at:http://www.vfish.net/files/acebooks7.PDF================== -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: USPS Is anyone experiencing sloooooooow mail service. I mailed out somethingto a list member over a week ago and he has still not received it. I know Idid get a package today that took 11 days from PA to MI but is it just me?Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) coast to coast delivery seems to have slowed down by a few extra = could be even longer in those PO's that were shut down for = team. Regards,Darrell LeeAnglers 452- Grhghlndr@aol.comSent: Friday, November 02, 2001 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: = something to a list member over a week ago and he has still not = =(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from darrell@vFish.net Sat Nov 3 09:41:55 2001 fA3Ffs700167 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:41:54 -0600 Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:47:20 -0600 Subject: RE: Garrison book Hi Tony, I've already done it with Bill's permission and review, I already added itto my website. Here's the page... http://www.vfish.net/garrisonreview.html I'm always looking for more in-depth book reviews to add to my website. Billreceived a large spool of vintage silk thread for his excellent review... hint, hint... perhaps someone would review the two video tapes... the DiggerVideo and the Garrison video and compare the two... To all: Please email me offlist if you'd like to submit a book or tapereview. Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 ==================Angling, collecting & rod making books at:http://www.vfish.net/files/acebooks7.PDF================== -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Garrison book This is the most balanced and accurate review I've seen on this book andshould be put somewhere easily accessed when the question arises(Todd????) Tony At 09:41 AM 11/2/01 -0500, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Frank, You will not be wasting your time reading Garrison. He was not, however,the god of all information on rod building. He was an engineer with anextraordinarily precise mind and an equally extraordinarily gifted pair ofhands. Bamboo rods had fallen almost completely out of favor with the fishingpublic by the 1970s, and there were almost no known amateur builders atthat time. Carmichael's intention was to chronicle the work of perhaps theonly living expert--and surely the only man willing to share, openly, hisinformation and processes. It is largely because of those factors thatGarrison is regarded as our "deity," and not so much because we need tothink of his way as being the only way (and certainly not any longer). The book exists as it does largely because Hoagy Carmichael wished to payhomage to everything that his friend, "Gary," knew. And this meantphotographing and explaining every step that Gary took--as well asaccounting for all of Gary's complicated mathamatical formulae. This lateris the part (for the newcomer to the craft, particularly), that constitutesthe really tough going. On the purely practical side of rod-building, again, Garrison/Carmichael"walk" us through a great many steps that are presented as beingabsolutelyessential, when, in fact, many of these steps and considerations are notnecessarily essential at all. It was usually just Garrison'sultra-fastidious mind at work, and Carmichael's wish to honor, completely,his mentor/friend. Garrison's math was surely the core of all his successful rods, but theirony is that you and I don't really need that part of the book at all--noteven to build truly exceptional rods. I have been designing and buildingfly rods since the mid-nineteen seventies, but I do not understandmathamatics beyond simple arithmetic. Complicated mathematics are veryhelpful to some builders, but by no means essential to the design process.There are other ways, equally effective. You and I just don't need thosecomplicated mathematics any longer, as there are now literally hundreds oftapers available to us, not to mention the rather remarkable "Hexagraph"system that Wayne Cattanach developed. Gary did his engineering calculations because that is the way HIS mindneeded to understand things, and also because, at the time he began building (the 1930s), the only other builders were largely commercial, and theyweren't sharing information (as we do now). Gary's good friend, Dr. Parker Holden ("Idyl of The Split Cane," 1919),helped him enormously in the beginning, but Holden was influenced by RobertCrompton, and the two of them had already become powerful advocates ofthefive-strip fly rod. Tapers for six-strip rods that were to Garrison'sliking weren't publicly available in the 1930s (as they certainly are now),so he felt he needed to develop a system of mathematical calculations thatwould yield rods of similar action all across the spectrum of lengths andline-weights. It was the first such attempt, and while some currentbuilders may take exception to Garrison's engineering principles,nevertheless, Garrison's system produced a series of truly remarkablerods. I would never wish to be critical in any negative sense of either Garrisonor Carmichael. The fact was that (apart from the limited andlong-out-of-print information in the Holden, Herter, Kreider and McClanebooks) there were no truly complete books on bamboo rod-building availablein the 1970s. Garrison/Carmichael had a truly unique opportunity to fillthat gap. So, if there is anything at all to be wary of, it is perhaps that the book has within it a good deal of "overkill." We get a much more detail about Garrison's procedures than is actually needed. (Indeed, Garrisonprobably became involved in a great deal more detail than he, himself,needed. But it is the way he did things.) Carmichael's focus was partly upon what another amateur builder wouldneedto know, but it was much more intent upon saying everything possible aboutGarrison. So, the book is both a "how-to" manual, and a tribute to Garrison himself. It's this latter part of Carmichael's focus that perhaps goesbeyond what the start-up builder really needs. So, as they say, take whatyou like, and leave the rest. The Garrison book may tell you more than youneed to know (sometimes to the point of irrelevance?), but it will not leadyou astray. As to other, contemporary books that you might find more "user- friendly,"there are also (in addition to Cattenach) books by George Maurer and JackHowell. Any of these will serve you very well, indeed, in your desire tobuild a rod. Later, you can return to Garrison, and appreciate hiscontributions in a somewhat different different perspective. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Frank and Faith" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:13 PMSubject: Garrison book I am still new to this game - getting the tools together. I have purchased the Cattanach book and video and have read and watched them a numberoftimes. The other day I borrowed the Garrison/Carmichael book from thelibrary. On my first skimming the book seems to be quite heavy going. A recent number of posts now suggest to me that I am wasting my time trying to absorb the contents of this book. My question is am I waisting my time with this book and should I avoid it because he makes the rod making process to complex? Cheers, Frank.-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu "noneSent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: B.S. in rodmakers I would also call the biggest B.S. : computer generated designs and stress curves. Also the Garrison book which was entirely written by HoagyCarmichael I believe to make rodmaking seem more difficult than it is. Case in point, I have been involved in it for over 15 years and have only met 1 person that failed at the craft and that is because of a lack of love for it. Marty /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Nov 3 09:58:30 2001 fA3FwT700348 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:58:29 -0600 Rodmakers Subject: Re: Stanley plane There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does notwarpbecause it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makers inductionhardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray,soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that do not rustwhenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 istheblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I everused.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off thecutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect thedifference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and astandardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except youwill paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great.Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloyblades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but Iwould go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hockblade tofit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the listmentionthat the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane.What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2and thenew "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have thesamefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.)downto the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who willtrue and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an old one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Nov 3 10:16:16 2001 fA3GGF700695 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:16:15 -0600 Subject: RE: I forgot one In a message dated 11/2/1 11:04:23 PM, Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.comwrites: Troy - The short answer to that is "I don't know". I have come by the ignorance honestly, however, as I have really tried to figure it out. None of the explanations I or others have offered really make all that much sense to me. The explanation I like best is that the fibers of a flexing rod may slide just a bit, and the twisting locks them in place better. I do seem to detect that the difference between a spiral rod and a straight one is more pronounced when the rods are fully flexed. Maybe you noticed the samething? In any case, I was happy to participate in the Grand Experiment, and have refrained from saying much about it, In part because I did not feel I had enough time to fairly evaluate so many rods, but mostly because this wasJohn Long's brainchild, and he deserves to have the first say on the results. After he publishes, I will be pleased to put in my .02. So c'mon John, I'm waiting with worms on my tounge. * *baited breath from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Nov 3 10:30:06 2001 fA3GU5701069 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:30:05 -0600 Subject: Re: RALI planes In a message dated 11/3/1 12:06:00 AM, jvswan@earthlink.net writes: Yes - I often use the block version for rough and semi finish planing. It works very well on cane, and would not make a bad beginners plane at all, since there is no sharpening of the disposable blades. The Rali needs no tuning, and works well right out of the box, which also might be an advantage About the only downside, other than needing to replace the blades, is the lack of very fine adjustment for finish planing. I have done it, however, and had no problems. It's just that a really sharp and well tuned Stanley or Record is superior for that work. from robertgkope@home.com Sat Nov 3 10:48:45 2001 fA3Gmi702185 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:48:44 -0600 femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: Re: Stanley plane Darryl, I remember you making the comment a couple of years ago about the Record=plane being smaller than the Stanley. I don't own a Record, but am =surprised that it is smaller. The Record looks like an older Stanley =with the blade cant adjustment lever and the old, lever style of depth =adjustment, but it uses a 1 5/8" blade like the Stanley 9 1/2 and the = I have an older Stanley 9 1/2, a Stanley G12-020 and a Stanley G12-060. =I like the old Stanley 9 1/2, but I weighed both planes and the older =one is definitely lighter (462g for the body vs. 567g for the body of =the G12- 020). The casting appears to be thinner and cleaner, the =machining more precise, and the body about 1/8" narrower on the older =plane. But I suspect that Stanley has changed the plane more than once, =so there are probably several variations out there. How much smaller is =the Record 9 1/2 than the Stanley G12-020? I actually prefer the narrower body of the G12-060 which takes a 1 3/8" =blade. However I like the idea that Record 9 1/2 and 60 1/2 use the =same size blade. I just wish they used the narrower 1 3/8" blades =instead of 1 5/8". I think I will finally invest in a Lie Nielsen 9 =1/2. That one just appears to be head and shoulders above the rest. -- Robert Kope Subject: Re: Stanley plane As an owner of both a new Stanley G12-020 Which might not be the same =as the one you are going to get, but it looks just like a 9 1/2, and an =old 9 1/2, I can say the entire casting on the old one is thicker, =various adjustment pieces on the new plane are stamped sheet metal where=they are castings or formed thicker pieces on the old plane. I think the =new one will do just as good a job as an old one, so if you can't get an =older one for cheaper, don't worry about it. That's why I mentioned No.3 =or No.4 bench planes in a previous post. You can get them cheaper than =new on eBay. No.1s or No.2s - forget about it! Get a new one from = As for a Record 9 1/2, I like it better than the Stanley because it is =smaller and fits my hand better. The blade depth adjustment on the =Record is cheesier than the Stanley, but it does what it's supposed to = Darryl, I remember you making the comment a= older Stanley with the blade cant adjustment lever and the old, lever = depth adjustment, but it uses a 1 5/8" blade like the Stanley 9 1/2 and = I have an older Stanley 9 1/2, a = planes and the older one is definitely lighter (462g for the body vs. = plane more than once, so there are probably several variations out = How much smaller is the Record 9 1/2 than the Stanley =G12-020? I actually prefer the narrower body of = rest. -- Robert Kope ----- Original Message ----- DNHayashida@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001= AMSubject: Re: Stanley =plane owner of both a new Stanley G12-020 Which might not be the same as the= are going to get, but it looks just like a 9 1/2, and an old 9 1/2, I = the entire casting on the old one is thicker, various adjustment = new plane are stamped sheet metal where they are castings or formed = pieces on the old plane. I think the new one will do just as good a = old one, so if you can't get an older one for cheaper, don't worry = That's why I mentioned No.3 or No.4 bench planes in a previous post. = get them cheaper than new on eBay. No.1s or No.2s - forget about it! = one from Lie-Nielsen. As for a Record 9 1/2, I like it better than = Stanley because it is smaller and fits my hand better. The blade depth = adjustment on the Record is cheesier than the Stanley, but it does = supposed to do. Darryl Hayashida from jvswan@earthlink.net Sat Nov 3 10:54:29 2001 fA3GsS702341 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:54:28 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Subject: Re: RALI planes Thanks, Tom. I went and looked up your last comment about these planes inthe archives (1999). I guess the question is sort of moot, though, sinceWoodcraft doesn't sell them any more. I'm not going to spend a lot of timelooking for them, though. Just wondering how they worked. Seemed kind ofslick, and a little smaller too. Jason On 11/3/01 9:30 AM, "TSmithwick@aol.com" wrote: In a message dated 11/3/1 12:06:00 AM, jvswan@earthlink.net writes: Yes - I often use the block version for rough and semi finish planing. Itworks very well on cane, and would not make a bad beginners plane at all,since there is no sharpening of the disposable blades. The Rali needs notuning, and works well right out of the box, which also might be anadvantage blade.About the only downside, other than needing to replace the blades, is thelack of very fine adjustment for finish planing. I have done it, however,and had no problems. It's just that a really sharp and well tuned Stanley orRecord is superior for that work. from eamon_lee@hotmail.com Sat Nov 3 11:18:08 2001 fA3HI7702692 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:18:08 -0600 Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:18:09 -0800 Sat, 03 Nov 2001 17:18:09 GMT Subject: Box elder burl pics FILETIME=[82BC8830:01C1648B] Please email me off list with "Pictures Please" in the subject line and I will mail you pics. Thanks for the bandwidth again.Eamon Lee _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from rsgould@cmc.net Sat Nov 3 11:41:12 2001 fA3HfB704674 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:41:11 -0600 Subject: Re: I forgot one Hi to all,My thinking as to why the spiral rod recovers faster is that "it's in themathematics". A spiral rod is or should be stiffer than the hex rod itstarted out as. This might be easiest seen if you consider a spiral rod thatis infinitely twisted. It then becomes a circular cross section whosediameter is the same as the distance across the corners of the hex rod andthat cross section has a higher moment of inertia and thus should be stifferthan the hex.. Besides all that, in practice it seems to be true.This wasreally brought home to me when I watched Ron Grantham at a Corbett lakeworkshop demonstration, cast one of my 8ft x 2pc spirals with a WF7F lineonit and he cast the whole bloody fly line out! Sure wish I could cast aswell.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: I forgot one I'll buy that. What makes the spiral recover faster? Thanks -- TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 6:19 PM Subject: Re: I forgot one In a message dated 10/30/1 11:45:53 PM, Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.comwrites: this rod so "castable" by everyone? >> Hi Troy - Others have also noticed that casters at all levels seem to do abit better with the spiral rods. It is no mystery. The spiral rods recover a bit faster than a comparable straight rod. Faster recovery = faster linespeed = a longer cast. Since the rod is doing this regardless of thecaster'stechnique, everyone from snake floggers to experts benefit to one extent or another. from DNHayashida@aol.com Sat Nov 3 12:06:49 2001 fA3I6n705741 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:06:49 -0600 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:06:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Excellent point. The older Stanley planes I have been getting through eBay have much better blades than the blades on the new Stanley planes. The old Stanley blades are much harder, they can be sharpened sharper, and theyare always rusted when I get them. The new blades don't rust, but they don't sharpen as sharp and they don't hold an edge as long. Seems like a different metal composition to me.....Darryl Hayashida Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect thedifference? Tony Excellent point. The older Stanley planes I have been getting througheBay have much better blades than the blades on the new Stanley planes.The old Stanley blades are much harder, they can be sharpened sharper, andthey are always rusted when I get them. The new blades don't rust, but they a different metal composition to me.....Darryl Hayashida Are the stdCURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect thedifference? Tony from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Nov 3 13:02:09 2001 fA3J27706858 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:02:07 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Rodmakers Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. You know very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil though watercan be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium.Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home and a large association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members is a metallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys are supplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality in general is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being the blacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort of time is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deepwater.Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used by Stanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on the performance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new 6mmchisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was too blunt touse when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6 fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rolls overboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a company can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when the bean counter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much use hand tools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clay anyhow when it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be really surprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather than harping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench.The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record (the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does notwarpbecause it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makers induction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that do not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off thecutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect thedifference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and astandardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except youwill paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have thesamefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an old one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Nov 3 13:02:10 2001 fA3J2A706863 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:02:10 -0600 Subject: Re: I forgot one In a message dated 11/3/1 5:41:44 PM, rsgould@cmc.net writes: Hi Ray - Your argument makes sense, and is one of the explanations I have considered, BUT does the small amount of twist we apply actuallyconcentrate more material into the cross section? I have never noticed any significant difference in the lengths of the sections after twisting. from fiveside@net-gate.com Sat Nov 3 13:38:46 2001 fA3Jci707690 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:38:45 -0600 Subject: Fiction, Fantasy and Myth To the List;To imagine that anyone on this list could ever possibly make a cane =rod is fiction, fantasy and myth. They are all too busy sending =messages. Bill To the List; on = from wiljette@nmia.com Sat Nov 3 16:05:36 2001 fA3M5Z710003 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:05:35 -0600 Subject: Wrap colors-Granger Aristocrat fA3M5Z710004 This is a seven foot two piece rod of 1930 vintage that needs some newguides. The existing wraps appear to be orange tipped with dark brown orblack. I need to know the original color of the threads. Any suggestions willbe gratefully received. TIAWill Jette from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Nov 3 16:31:21 2001 fA3MVL710605 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:31:21 -0600 ([209.178.135.139] helo=g2t8c9) id 1609Ji-00010d-00; Sat, 03 Nov 2001 14:31:06 -0800 Subject: Re: Fiction, Fantasy and Myth Nope, Just the other way around. I was able build my equipment, buy cane and =make 2 rods my first 5 months on the list. Now as I make rods the =pleasure is there and the frustration is not. And I have met and made =friends with people all around the world. I guess I could have spent =months or years reading Garrison and tracking down how to make =equipment. Then go it alone trying to make a rod. But being an educated =man I decided to join the list and do it the smart way. Adam Vigil Subject: Fiction, Fantasy and Myth To the List;To imagine that anyone on this list could ever possibly make a cane =rod is fiction, fantasy and myth. They are all too busy sending =messages. Bill Nope, Just the other way around. I was able = = And I have met and made friends with people all around the world. I = could have spent months or years reading Garrison and tracking down how = equipment. Then go it alone trying to make a rod. But being an educated = decided to join the list and do it the smart way. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Fink Sent: Saturday, November 03, = AMSubject: Fiction, Fantasy and =Myth To the List; Bill from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Nov 3 16:51:26 2001 fA3MpP711018 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:51:25 -0600 (may be forged)) Rodmakers Subject: Re: Stanley plane Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort torelieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planessomehow startto choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making andtheycannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or 4worthconsidering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "Ihave never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprisedif you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. Youknow very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but thenthe cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect)are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebodywhoknows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil though watercanbe used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use thisbecause the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'Trustas fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust veryquickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It'stoughnessis also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64- 50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium.Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home and alarge association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members is ametallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes andchisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyotacoil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons aswell as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock andthey rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron alsoit must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons asfar as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys aresupplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality ingeneral is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being theblacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort oftime is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deepwater.Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used byStanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is theproblem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on theperformance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. Imortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new 6mmchiselwhich was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise wasonly 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was too blunt tousewhen I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rustas fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a company cango from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when the beancounter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much use handtools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clay anyhowwhen it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be reallysurprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather thanharping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost istrifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench.The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can'tremember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it butminewas very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] )but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record(the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 doesnot warpbecause it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makersinduction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with aspray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that do notrustwhenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse,A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I everused.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping offthecutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect thedifference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and astandardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference exceptyouwill paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu SwanSent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 91/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to havethe samefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for anold one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 atLowes? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Nov 3 17:00:51 2001 fA3N0o711408 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:00:51 -0600 ([209.178.135.139] helo=g2t8c9) id 1609mN-00068C-00; Sat, 03 Nov 2001 15:00:44 -0800 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Stanley plane Takesthe same effort to make a decent one as a bad one. But they still cutcorners to save themselves $.----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Stanley plane Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. Youknow very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil thoughwater can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust veryquickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium.Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home and alarge association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members is ametallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock andthey rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys aresupplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality ingeneral is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being theblacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort oftime is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used byStanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on theperformance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was too bluntto use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a companycan go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when the beancounter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much use handtools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clayanyhowwhen it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be reallysurprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather thanharping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost istrifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis -) ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record(the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makersinduction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that do not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse,A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu SwanSent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an old one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Nov 3 17:59:07 2001 fA3Nx6713468 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:59:07 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:55:21 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods jvswan@earthlink.net, Rodmakers Subject: Re: Stanley plane Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is thatthesteel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromisebetweenhardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and staythat waylonger, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment onthat.The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the factthatit is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with thechatter?? Idon't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and 60 1/2I don't feelgypped but when starting out I think that money might be better spent onother tools orbetter components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort torelieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planessomehow startto choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane makingand theycannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or 4worthconsidering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "Ihave never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be prettysurprisedif you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. Youknow very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but thenthe cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that isincorrect)are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebodywhoknows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil thoughwater canbe used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use thisbecause the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'Trustas fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust veryquickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It'stoughnessis also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64- 50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium.Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home and alarge association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members is ametallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes andchisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyotacoil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane ironsaswell as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock andthey rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard ironalsoit must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons asfar as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys aresupplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality ingeneral is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being theblacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort oftime is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deepwater.Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used byStanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it istheproblem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on theperformance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. Imortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new 6mmchiselwhich was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortisewasonly 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was too bluntto usewhen I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rustas fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a companycan go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when the beancounter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much use handtools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clayanyhowwhen it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be reallysurprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather thanharping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons goodenough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost istrifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench.The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can'tremember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it butminewas very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] )but these may be good to try again as well.Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record(the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 doesnot warpbecause it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makersinduction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with aspray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that do notrustwhenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse,A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all Ieverused.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping offthecutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect thedifference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc andastandardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference exceptyouwill paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu SwanSent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 91/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to havethe samefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friendwho will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for anold one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 atLowes? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Nov 3 19:11:00 2001 fA41Ax716110 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:10:59 -0600 ([209.178.134.147] helo=g2t8c9) id 160BoX-0007jz-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 03 Nov 2001 17:11:06 -0800 Subject: splitting - mini froe While splitting some cane I had an idea. I use a sharpen screw driver and ithas worked great. As I was looking at the screw driver I realized it may beable to work even better. What I did was take the screw driver to thegrinder and put a wedge on on side of the flat head and essentially gave itan axe shape. On the opposite side of the flat head I flattened it so itwould provide a flat area for the hammer to strike it. So what I have now isa sharpen screw driver that has a wedge on one side and a striking surfaceon the other. To use simply hold the screwdrivers handle placing the wedgeon the cane and give it a wack! with the hammer. If you choose you can thenkeep inserting the screw driver to split the cane. Or even insert the screwdrivers tip into the bench and continue to push the cane against it forsplitting Works good, simple and cheap. Adam Vigil from vze27n6j@verizon.net Sat Nov 3 19:34:56 2001 fA41Yt717158 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:34:56 -0600 for ; id fA41YqW25892 Subject: Lathes --=======3B1D6FA9======= ascii; format=flowed I've seen a lot of info about small lathes for rod making use but I don't recall seeing any mention of the Smithy lathe and mill combo. Anyone have any experience with them? I have a Logan 10" and a wood lathe that I'm considering replacing. Frank --=======3B1D6FA9======= ok-287B52B7 ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.295 / Virus Database: 159 - Release Date: 11/1/2001 --=======3B1D6FA9=======-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Nov 3 20:21:52 2001 fA42Lp718645 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:21:51 -0600 jvswan@earthlink.net, Rodmakers Subject: Re: Stanley plane Old bamboo companies made lots of rods, not lousy rods. If you get a chancelikeI did to look over a collection of mint rods from the old days do so, you willbe surprised. Adam Vigil wrote: Takesthe same effort to make a decent one as a bad one. But they still cutcorners to save themselves $.----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; ; Rodmakers Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 2:52 PMSubject: Re: Stanley plane Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes.Youknow very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil thoughwater can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and theyDON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rustveryquickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness ismedium.Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home andalarge association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members isametallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and planeirons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock andthey rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys aresupplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality ingeneral is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being theblacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sortoftime is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used byStanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on theperformance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was tooblunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a companycan go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when the beancounter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much usehandtools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clayanyhowwhen it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be reallysurprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather thanharping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The costistrifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis -) ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly andRecord(the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makersinduction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that donot rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse,A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chipingoff the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no differenceexcept you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu SwanSent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem tohave the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment,cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 for an old one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Nov 3 20:37:04 2001 fA42b2719321 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:37:02 -0600 jvswan@earthlink.net, Rodmakers Subject: Re: Stanley plane Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or high chromesteel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. I wouldagree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test looked likecarbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site and they arenowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heat treating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that thesteel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromisebetweenhardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and staythat waylonger, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment onthat.The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the factthatit is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with thechatter?? Idon't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and 601/2 I don't feelgypped but when starting out I think that money might be better spent onother tools orbetter components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort torelieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planessomehow startto choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane makingand theycannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or4 worthconsidering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like"Ihave never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be prettysurprisedif you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes.Youknow very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale butthenthe cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that isincorrect)are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebodywhoknows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil thoughwater canbe used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't usethisbecause the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and theyDON'T rustas fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rustveryquickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It'stoughnessis also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64- 50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness ismedium.Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home andalarge association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members isametallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planesandchisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about whatToyotacoil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and planeirons aswell as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock andthey rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard ironalsoit must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane ironsasfar as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys aresupplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality ingeneral is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being theblacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sortoftime is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deepwater.Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used byStanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it istheproblem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on theperformance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. Imortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new6mm chiselwhich was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortisewasonly 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was tooblunt to usewhen I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don'trustas fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a companycan go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when the beancounter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much usehandtools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clayanyhowwhen it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be reallysurprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather thanharping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons goodenough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The costistrifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpeningbench.The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. Ican'tremember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it butminewas very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)])but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly andRecord(the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2does not warpbecause it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makersinduction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with aspray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that donot rustwhenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse,A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all Ieverused.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chipingoff thecutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect thedifference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rcand astandardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no differenceexcept youwill paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant likemodern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a tossup, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu SwanSent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on thelist mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanleyblock plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem tohave the samefeatures (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment,cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friendwho will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 foran old one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 atLowes? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Nov 3 20:50:53 2001 fA42oq720079 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:50:52 -0600 ([209.178.135.209] helo=g2t8c9) id 160DMx-0003xD-00; Sat, 03 Nov 2001 18:50:44 -0800 , "Rodmakers" Subject: Rods and casting Terry, You are right, but I said some of them made lousy rods shoot! rod companiesstill do today! They also made some good ones but I have casted enough ofthem to know what is lousy. And to tell you the truth only rodmakers thatare excellent casters can actually tell which rods are truly good and whichones are not. There are some rodmakers that have a hard time with casting.Makes you wonder how they know what a good rod is? Many rodmakers todayonly sell rods they personally can cast well. Just imagine if they werebetter casters how many more types of rods they could offer. When I see afly fisherman or rodmaker that can cast well I ask them to cast my rods. Iwant their feedback. But what is the point of asking a rodmaker that isunable to cast a full flex parabolic that can cast 10x its length if thecaster can only get out 20 feet of line? Adam Old bamboo companies made lots of rods, not lousy rods. If you get a chance like I did to look over a collection of mint rods from the old days do so, you will be surprised.Terry from SBDunn@aol.com Sat Nov 3 21:42:41 2001 fA43ge721893 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:42:40 -0600 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 22:42:38 -0500 Subject: Rice Silk A few years ago somebody put together a large silk order in one of the old classic colors from Rice. The spools were 5 or 6 thousand yards and endedup costing around 25 bucks each. After one guy did the first order, somebody else put together another order (different color). I wonder 1) if there is sufficient interest to do it again, 2) if the guys that did it originally are still on the list, 3) if they are interested in doing it again or 4) if not, would they share the details with the list (who do we contact, what is the minimum order, how long does it take, etc.). Regards, Steve. from CALucker@aol.com Sat Nov 3 22:48:18 2001 fA44mH723990 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 22:48:17 -0600 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:47:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Rice Silk I put the custom order together. There was a five pound minimum and the total cost was around $530. until they were convinced they were very happy with the silk. If they did not like the silk, they could keep the silk anyway free of charge. Of the 22 spools I shipped out, everyone paid except one person -- who said he thought the silk was too fine, he wanted size A afterall. If only half the people ended up paying I figure I was way ahead. This stuff ended up being about 22 cents per hundred yards.If anyone wants to do the order again, I will give you the information.I did the antique gold order, and gave the original Java Beige (Payne color) to the Rice factory as a sample for the second order.Chris Lucker from beadman@mac.com Sat Nov 3 23:12:27 2001 fA45CQ724450 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:12:26 -0600 ;Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:12:33 -0800 Subject: Re: I forgot one At 2:02 PM -0500 , 11/3/01, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote about Re: I forgotone In a message dated 11/3/1 5:41:44 PM, rsgould@cmc.net writes: mathematics" >> Hi Ray - Your argument makes sense, and is one of the explanations I haveconsidered, BUT does the small amount of twist we apply actuallyconcentratemore material into the cross section? I have never noticed any significantdifference in the lengths of the sections after twisting. It's not the AREA in the cross section that is increased, but the AMOUNT of the area that becomes farther from the center line axis of the rod that causes the increased stiffness. If you could turn the rod 30 degrees so that when you cast, an apex of the cross section is directly in line with the cast instead of a flat, then you would notice an increase in stiffness - this increase in stiffness is because an increased amount of the cross-sectional area is now farther from the rod centerline. For example: consider using a piece of wood that measures 1 inch wide by 1/2 inch thick. If you put the guides on the wide side, so that you have a very wide but relatively thin rod, it would be absolutely wimpy and cast like a noodle. On the other had, if you put the guides on the 1/2 inch wide side and cast it accordingly, you'd have a very stiff rod. The cross sectional area hasn't changed at all, but a large amount of the cross sectional area has moved farther from the centerline. I have the equations for a hex rod at work, not here at home, so I won't be able to tell you exactly how much the difference in stiffness is, but there is a difference. I'll work out the equations at lunch on Monday, and send it to you. Claude from saweiss@flash.net Sat Nov 3 23:14:24 2001 fA45EO724629 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:14:24 -0600 fA45EUn211580 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:14:30 -0500 Subject: Re: scales Organization: Prodigy Internet Adam,I was being sarcastic because a couple of years ago I did find a post officescale that was set too high. It was making money not losing it for the postoffice.Steve Steve,Scales used for comerce are checked and calibrated by the bureau of weights and measures. If you are not sure just check the round sticker on the sideof the scale. It will tell you when they were last checked. I do not know if the post office is under the same enforcement but I do know they lose money if the scale is not calibrated. That is why they weigh stuff before they put postage on it. Adam,Do you really believe that the post office routinely calibrates its ownscales?Steve Ralph, If you want to test it for accuracy. Go to the post office and ask them to weigh a few things for you. My post office actually has the scale in the lobby for the public. Then set you scale. from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sat Nov 3 23:16:25 2001 fA45GO724712 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:16:24 -0600 Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:30:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Scales Chris, Now I didn't invent the idea but it makes sense and it works.Construct a beam scale using a 1/4" all thread bolt c/w 3 nuts on each sideof the center. Drill a hole @ the center of the all thread and attach aloop of stiff wire that will act as a fulcrum/hanging loop. Attach somepans you can make out of 20 gage tin. I used 20 lb. test wire leaders toattach the pans to the beam ends. Calibrate the scale to zero by using the1/4" nuts screwed along the all thread. Lock them into place.Weigh one 1/4" nut or whatever size suits you from a box of 100. Use thenuts on one side vs whatever you want to weigh on the other.Works just fine for glue and other non-exact weights. Having said that, Ijust purchased a RCBS Powder Measure to accurately weight changes in freewater, molecular water or holy water in cane as it's soaked, baked and letjust generally sit around. 1 grain = 0.002083 Oz. or 7681.22 grains = 1 lb. catch ya' Don At 08:45 AM 11/2/01 -0600, Grayson Davis wrote: wrote: I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, andfinished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com weighing on the cheap (powder) : weigh out one ounce on a postal scale; fold a piece of shim stock nearly in half; use magic marker to put eleven equally-spaced marks on the channel fromed by the fold; sprinkle, tap and otherwise distribute the oz. evenly inside the marks in the channel; scrape or brush off one division-worth (0.1 oz.) onto a clean sheet of paper; put nine divisions-worth back in the bottle; repeat with the 0.1 oz to get .01 oz. -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from ajthramer@hotmail.com Sun Nov 4 02:51:35 2001 fA48pY726503 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 02:51:34 -0600 Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:19:33 -0800 Sun, 04 Nov 2001 08:19:32 GMT Subject: Re: Wrap colors-Granger Aristocrat FILETIME=[6ED46990:01C16509] The original colors are a golden tan and chocolate brown. The colors listed in the bamboo restoration book are not all that close as the tan lacks the golden cast and the chocolate lacks a bronze tint. For small quantities you can go to Darrell at vfish.net and he has the original tan. He does not have the original chocolate but # 1901 in the Gudebrod that he has is a very close match. BTW I ordered a selection of the Gudebrod silk - since it is old stock it has the sparkle and at 2/0 I can actually wrap it. And the price seemed reasonable at $25 a spool(1000yd i think). NFI yada yadaA.J. From: "William Jette" Subject: Wrap colors-Granger AristocratDate: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:06:26 - 0700 This is a seven foot two piece rod of 1930 vintage that needs some new guides. The existing wraps appear to be orange tipped with dark brown or black. I need to know the original color of the threads. Any suggestions will be gratefully received. TIAWill Jette _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from petermckean@netspace.net.au Sun Nov 4 03:25:02 2001 fA49P1726985 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:25:01 -0600 fA49P1K94194; Subject: Re: I forgot one Ray Is that true? If you twist a square section rod, say of steel, the cross section stays asquare. Have a look at the end of a fancy blacksmith's fire tools. Just a thought. Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: I forgot one Hi to all,My thinking as to why the spiral rod recovers faster is that "it's in themathematics". A spiral rod is or should be stiffer than the hex rod itstarted out as. This might be easiest seen if you consider a spiral rod that is infinitely twisted. It then becomes a circular cross section whosediameter is the same as the distance across the corners of the hex rodandthat cross section has a higher moment of inertia and thus should be stiffer than the hex.. Besides all that, in practice it seems to be true.This wasreally brought home to me when I watched Ron Grantham at a Corbett lakeworkshop demonstration, cast one of my 8ft x 2pc spirals with a WF7F line on it and he cast the whole bloody fly line out! Sure wish I could cast aswell.Ray-- --- Original Message -----From: "Miller, Troy" Cc: "Rodmakers" Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:58 PMSubject: RE: I forgot one I'll buy that. What makes the spiral recover faster? Thanks -- TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 6:19 PM Subject: Re: I forgot one In a message dated 10/30/1 11:45:53 PM,Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.comwrites: this rod so "castable" by everyone? >> Hi Troy - Others have also noticed that casters at all levels seem to do a bit better with the spiral rods. It is no mystery. The spiral rods recover a bit faster than a comparable straight rod. Faster recovery = faster line speed = a longer cast. Since the rod is doing this regardless of thecaster'stechnique, everyone from snake floggers to experts benefit to oneextent or another. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Nov 4 03:26:34 2001 fA49QW727093 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:26:32 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Rodmakers At 05:52 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort torelieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow startto choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and theycannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or 4 worthconsidering. It just does not add up.Terry Stupidity and short term gain has always been a good reason for things like this in the past.Maybe the steel they use is more easily stamped making the stamping dies last 3 mins and 200 irons longer than otherwise, maybe the steel takes just a few degrees less to harden therefore cheaper fuel bills and less time sitting around air quenching, maybe any number of production reasons they don't see harms the product for the perceived market.I've been directly involved in production with a mob I helped start up from scratch 20 years ago. It was clothing and back packs for the mountaineering industry. 2 mins less taken sealing one seam or the removal of a seam all together makes a garment cost $10 less retail on a GoreTex summit suit for eg. One oz less weight on a the fabric of a back pack can save thousands over a year.Most people wouldn't know the difference and those that do either get custom made gear or go to specialist makers. This is why specialist makers are making a living even though the large companies are making gear so cheep by comparison. Over engineering costs money as you'd know. If the bean counters of Stanley think and know for that matter the people making money from carpentrydon't use planes or chisels in the way they were designed to be used originally because these guys are now using routers and power planes going weeks without ever using a hand plane why would they use the best steel? That would be over engineering, simple as that.When I was around boat builders seeing somebody use a hand plane wasalways reason for comment in the same way you comment when you see somebody dressed differently to how he normally does. Not overly unusual but enough to mention. The home handyman wouldn't even know how to sharpen a plane iron or chisel and is just as likely to run the plane over nails etc and use a chisel to stir paint. When he's finished it'll be tossed in a draw and forgotten about until the paint can needs opening and stirring again. The makers know this and supply the quality required which is exactly JUNK.Try to be logical, get a current plane iron and try it, then come back to the list and tell us what you've found. I do know how to use hand tools and I can tell you the current stuff offered by the big makers is junk. I use decent tools and or make my own for this reason. You simply can't get a decent morticing cutting edge on a Stanley chisel these days and the plane irons would be worse.If you use hand tools buy good gear, it's always worth it. Deep 6 the plane iron that comes as std, get a decent one. If you can afford a LN or other tool like it buy it, you'll enjoy using it much more and support a craftsman at the same time. If you get a bronze plane you'll know it'll be looked at by a future archeologist who'll make the conclusion we of the late 20th and early 21st century were not all philistines and some did appreciate the relationship of form and function. [:-)] Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Nov 4 03:30:06 2001 fA49U4727304 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:30:04 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Rodmakers I can't remember who told me this so it might be apocryphal but I think Stanley want an air quenched steel that was easily stamped so the thickness of the iron is about right for their requirements. In the case of a Hock and prob LN they'd be using stock sizes. The extra thickness does reduce chatter but if the iron is sharp chatter shouldn't be a problem. Tony At 08:02 PM 11/3/01 -0500, Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that thesteel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromise betweenhardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that waylonger, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that.The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact thatit is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? Idon't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and 601/2 I don't feelgypped but when starting out I think that money might be better spent on other tools orbetter components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes.Youknow very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil thoughwater canbe used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't usethisbecause the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and theyDON'T rustas fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rustveryquickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness ismedium.Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home andalarge association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members isametallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planesandchisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about whatToyotacoil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock andthey rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane ironsasfar as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys aresupplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality ingeneral is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being theblacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sortoftime is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used byStanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on theperformance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. Imortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortisewasonly 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was tooblunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don'trustas fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a company can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when the beancounter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much usehandtools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clayanyhowwhen it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be reallysurprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather thanharping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons goodenough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The costistrifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly andRecord(the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makersinduction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with aspray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that do not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse,A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu SwanSent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on thelist mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanleyblock plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem tohave the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment,cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Nov 4 03:35:06 2001 fA49Z5727479 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:35:05 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Rodmakers If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent and they'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used to build the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanley use A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on your part.A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or high chrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. I would agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test looked like carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site and they are nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heat treating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and 60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be better spent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes.Youknow very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil though water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at homeand alarge association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the membersis ametallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guysaresupplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality ingeneral is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being theblacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sortoftime is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used byStanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on theperformance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was too blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is acompany can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when thebeancounter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much usehandtools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clayanyhowwhen it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be reallysurprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools ratherthanharping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly andRecord(the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makersinduction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that do not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from JNL123141@msn.com Sun Nov 4 06:26:48 2001 fA4CQk729108 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 06:26:46 -0600 Sun, 4 Nov 2001 04:26:44 -0800 Subject: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine FILETIME=[F7468E80:01C1652B] David,I hope you locate this guy and get you mags or money back. Let the list = ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine Got the info. Thanks. Good thing I'll be in Southern California for theend of November. Think I'll stop by the office and get my magazines. Dave -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 10:00 PM Subject: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine I am sincerely sorry for dredging up this subject and willaccept anyflames I deserve but I need a simple favor from the list. Can anyoneprovide me the full name of the individual responsible for the fraudule= nt behavior on the subject website? I had ordered some back issues on 30August and, as you all predicited, have received nothing but two lameexcuses for an expanation as to why I have not seen anymagazines. Since Ipaid throught Paypal, this individual has my money.I have initiated an effort to get him removed from thePaypal sellers listand I will be contacting VISA, his website host, Pacbell (his email), a= nd once I have a name and address, his local business associations, consum= er advocacy groups, and perhaps a lawyer. I am tired of being f'dwith by thisguy and since I have the time and resources to stop him from doing it t= o anyone else, figured I'd go after him a bit.Thanks for the help. Any info appreciated. David A. Streight, Ph.D., C.E.Vice President, Special Programsv: 703.624.8193f: 703.421.7059p: 703.903.6369dstreight@yarcom.com ----- Original Message ----- From: David A.Streight Sent: Friday, November 02,2001 = Rodmakers@Wugat=e. Wustl. Edu Subject: RE:B= Thanks.&=nbsp; Good thing I'll be in Southern California for theend of Novembe= rodmakers@wuga= O= PM&= Magaz= sub= Au=gust and, as you all predicited, have received nothing but two lame&g= the&= ; guy and since I have the time and resources to stop him from doing it t= 703.624.= dstreight@ya= from channer@frontier.net Sun Nov 4 06:33:38 2001 fA4CXb729389 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 06:33:38 -0600 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 05:40:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Tony;I was about to post pretty much the same story, Stanley has merely donewhat every other company in the world has done, just kept up with thetimes. When weekend warriors and rough framers are the mainstay of yourbusiness, there is no point making a tool of highest quality, it willjust get lost or broken anyway. The few handtool users left that knowthe difference between a good one and a bad one are going to buy abetter grade of tool anyway and the market isn't large enough to warrantbig time production numbers. Gee, sound like anything else we here knowabout? just a thoughtjohn Tony Young wrote: At 05:52 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort torelieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planessomehow startto choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane makingand theycannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or4worthconsidering. It just does not add up.Terry Stupidity and short term gain has always been a good reason for things likethis in the past.Maybe the steel they use is more easily stamped making the stamping dieslast 3 mins and 200 irons longer than otherwise, maybe the steel takesjusta few degrees less to harden therefore cheaper fuel bills and less timesitting around air quenching, maybe any number of production reasons theydon't see harms the product for the perceived market.I've been directly involved in production with a mob I helped start up fromscratch 20 years ago. It was clothing and back packs for themountaineering industry. 2 mins less taken sealing one seam or theremovalof a seam all together makes a garment cost $10 less retail on a GoreTexsummit suit for eg. One oz less weight on a the fabric of a back pack cansave thousands over a year.Most people wouldn't know the difference and those that do either getcustom made gear or go to specialist makers. This is why specialistmakersare making a living even though the large companies are making gear socheep by comparison. Over engineering costs money as you'd know. If the bean counters ofStanleythink and know for that matter the people making money from carpentrydon'tuse planes or chisels in the way they were designed to be used originallybecause these guys are now using routers and power planes going weekswithout ever using a hand plane why would they use the best steel? Thatwould be over engineering, simple as that.When I was around boat builders seeing somebody use a hand plane wasalwaysreason for comment in the same way you comment when you seesomebodydressed differently to how he normally does. Not overly unusual but enoughto mention. The home handyman wouldn't even know how to sharpen a plane iron orchiseland is just as likely to run the plane over nails etc and use a chisel tostir paint. When he's finished it'll be tossed in a draw and forgottenabout until the paint can needs opening and stirring again. The makersknowthis and supply the quality required which is exactly JUNK.Try to be logical, get a current plane iron and try it, then come back tothe list and tell us what you've found. I do know how to use hand tools andI can tell you the current stuff offered by the big makers is junk. I usedecent tools and or make my own for this reason. You simply can't get adecent morticing cutting edge on a Stanley chisel these days and the planeirons would be worse.If you use hand tools buy good gear, it's always worth it. Deep 6 the planeiron that comes as std, get a decent one. If you can afford a LN or othertool like it buy it, you'll enjoy using it much more and support acraftsman at the same time. If you get a bronze plane you'll know it'll belooked at by a future archeologist who'll make the conclusion we of thelate 20th and early 21st century were not all philistines and some didappreciate the relationship of form and function. [:- )] Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from dnorl@qwest.net Sun Nov 4 07:08:48 2001 fA4D8l729826 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:08:48 -0600 (63.228.44.55) Subject: Re: splitting - mini froe You can get a variety of butcher knives at the Salvation army for abuse usein splitting for 50 cents a piece use them up and throw them away----- Original Message----- Subject: splitting - mini froe While splitting some cane I had an idea. I use a sharpen screw driver and it has worked great. As I was looking at the screw driver I realized it may beable to work even better. What I did was take the screw driver to thegrinder and put a wedge on on side of the flat head and essentially gave itan axe shape. On the opposite side of the flat head I flattened it so itwould provide a flat area for the hammer to strike it. So what I have now is a sharpen screw driver that has a wedge on one side and a striking surfaceon the other. To use simply hold the screwdrivers handle placing the wedgeon the cane and give it a wack! with the hammer. If you choose you can thenkeep inserting the screw driver to split the cane. Or even insert the screwdrivers tip into the bench and continue to push the cane against it forsplitting Works good, simple and cheap. Adam Vigil from JNL123141@msn.com Sun Nov 4 07:35:04 2001 fA4DZ4729964 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:35:04 -0600 Sun, 4 Nov 2001 05:35:06 -0800 Subject: Splitters FILETIME=[83C82A90:01C16535] To All,At the SRG I did a brief demo of the Hida Tool 6 bladed splitter an=d everyone who saw it seemed to be impressed. It takes about 30 seconds =to do a culm and you get 6 even sections. If you already have a drying s=plit the sections will not all be equal but it really doesn't matter. I =also brought along a 12 bladed splitter which I traded for from Olaf Borg=a couple of years ago and had never used because the center hub appears =to be too large for the average culm, although Olaf did tell me it still = I visited Richard Tyree after the SRG and he also liked the 6 blade=d version. He found a 6ft. piece of a "junk" culm and we tried the 12 bl=ade splitter and it worked just great. I thought I would only be able to=use it on that once-in- a-lifetime 2 3/4 - 3" culm but not so. I don't =really need any more cane but the splitters make me want to order more ju=st to use them again. They are actually fun to use. I did a whole bale=of culms in less than an hour last summer. I then whacked off the damns=and bundled each "6-pack" with plastic zip-ties. Drying and curing sho=uld be better this way.I'd recommend the splitters to anyone. Check out Hida Tool on the = ToAll, = =Hida Tool 6 bladed splitter and everyone who saw it seemed to be impresse= ago and had never used because the center hub appears to be too large fo=r the average culm, although Olaf did tell me it still works ok on averag= = He found a 6ft. piece of a "junk" culm and we tried the 12 blade splitte= n't really need any more cane but the splitters make me want to order mor= u= with&nb= = from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Nov 4 07:36:12 2001 fA4DaA729976 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:36:10 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane I bought a Stanley 60-1/2 with my first pay packet as a teen and I felt good about it because it was a well designed and finished tool. I still have it and love using it for whatever cabinet jobs I've done in the last few years. I bought a Japanese laminated iron and it was better than the original but I wound up needing to use the std iron again and it is certainly better than the current std token irons as supplied but not as good as a Hock I bought a couple of years back. Comparing this plane with the same model or what is it's equivalent is still about the same relative price I guess because it's still a kid's full weekly wage to buy or maybe a bit less anyhow and not a bit like the one I bought in design or finish.I guess Stanley has done what it had to just to still exist but as a rod maker, regardless of what certain people may tell you, people of this list are performing a craft.The craft must be learned and practised and good tools are required to do good work. Yes you could use a broken beer bottle to shave the bamboo butwhy?Get good tools, practice the use of them and understand their use and you'll get the most from them.I simply cannot understand how an English trained tradesman like Terry could want to encourage the deteriation of quality craftsmanship by harping that certain tools which are not up to scratch are good value when they simply are not. As craftsmen we should encourage craftsmen other wise all we have are assemblers. from what is available here in Aust Record appear to be offering the best off the shelf tools just now and I think the planes and the irons are a little better. I must say however this is just an opinion based on picking them up and looking and we may get a different factory output here as well. At 05:35 AM 11/4/01 -0700, channer wrote: Tony;I was about to post pretty much the same story, Stanley has merely donewhat every other company in the world has done, just kept up with thetimes. When weekend warriors and rough framers are the mainstay of yourbusiness, there is no point making a tool of highest quality, it willjust get lost or broken anyway. The few handtool users left that knowthe difference between a good one and a bad one are going to buy abetter grade of tool anyway and the market isn't large enough to warrantbig time production numbers. Gee, sound like anything else we here knowabout? just a thoughtjohn Tony Young wrote: At 05:52 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planessomehow startto choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of planemakingand theycannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3or 4worthconsidering. It just does not add up.Terry Stupidity and short term gain has always been a good reason for thingslikethis in the past.Maybe the steel they use is more easily stamped making the stampingdieslast 3 mins and 200 irons longer than otherwise, maybe the steel takesjusta few degrees less to harden therefore cheaper fuel bills and less timesitting around air quenching, maybe any number of production reasonstheydon't see harms the product for the perceived market.I've been directly involved in production with a mob I helped start up fromscratch 20 years ago. It was clothing and back packs for themountaineering industry. 2 mins less taken sealing one seam or theremovalof a seam all together makes a garment cost $10 less retail on aGoreTexsummit suit for eg. One oz less weight on a the fabric of a back pack cansave thousands over a year.Most people wouldn't know the difference and those that do either getcustom made gear or go to specialist makers. This is why specialistmakersare making a living even though the large companies are making gear socheep by comparison. Over engineering costs money as you'd know. If the bean counters ofStanleythink and know for that matter the people making money from carpentrydon'tuse planes or chisels in the way they were designed to be used originallybecause these guys are now using routers and power planes going weekswithout ever using a hand plane why would they use the best steel? Thatwould be over engineering, simple as that.When I was around boat builders seeing somebody use a hand plane wasalwaysreason for comment in the same way you comment when you seesomebodydressed differently to how he normally does. Not overly unusual butenoughto mention. The home handyman wouldn't even know how to sharpen a plane iron orchiseland is just as likely to run the plane over nails etc and use a chisel tostir paint. When he's finished it'll be tossed in a draw and forgottenabout until the paint can needs opening and stirring again. The makersknowthis and supply the quality required which is exactly JUNK.Try to be logical, get a current plane iron and try it, then come back tothe list and tell us what you've found. I do know how to use hand toolsandI can tell you the current stuff offered by the big makers is junk. I usedecent tools and or make my own for this reason. You simply can't get adecent morticing cutting edge on a Stanley chisel these days and theplaneirons would be worse.If you use hand tools buy good gear, it's always worth it. Deep 6 the planeiron that comes as std, get a decent one. If you can afford a LN or othertool like it buy it, you'll enjoy using it much more and support acraftsman at the same time. If you get a bronze plane you'll know it'll belooked at by a future archeologist who'll make the conclusion we of thelate 20th and early 21st century were not all philistines and some didappreciate the relationship of form and function. [:- )] Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Sun Nov 4 07:47:56 2001 fA4Dlu700038 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:47:56 -0600 Subject: Handle Preferences Hello All, What do you find are the handle preferences in rods that you sell.Specifically I am interested in dimensions, diameter and length. I findthat I prefer thicker handles and even when trying to go for smallerones will over shoot my mark. Looking for some input-anyone. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Nov 4 08:03:17 2001 fA4E3H700116 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 08:03:17 -0600 Subject: Re: I forgot one In a message dated 11/4/1 5:14:11 AM, beadman@mac.com writes: Interesting Claude, but isn't this the direct opposite of Mr Garrison's statement that a rod with the cross section of a symmetrical polygon is equally stiff in all directions? You are talking some big time heresy here! from eamon_lee@hotmail.com Sun Nov 4 08:18:23 2001 fA4EIN700302 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 08:18:23 -0600 Sun, 4 Nov 2001 05:31:20 -0800 Sun, 04 Nov 2001 13:31:20 GMT Subject: Box Elder is Spoken For FILETIME=[FD5AB6D0:01C16534] Sorry if you missed the boat on this one gang, but I think most of the wood is spoken for. Hold tight and I'll keep you posted if you got to me late.Thanks to all on the list. Your the BEST!Eamon Lee _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Nov 4 08:20:04 2001 fA4EK4700333 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 08:20:04 -0600 Subject: Re: Scales Chris, Now I didn't invent the idea but it makes sense and it works.Construct a beam scale using a 1/4" all thread bolt c/w 3 nuts on each side of the center. Drill a hole @ the center of the all thread and attacha loop of stiff wire that will act as a fulcrum/hanging loop. Attach somepans you can make out of 20 gage tin. I used 20 lb. test wire leaders toattach the pans to the beam ends. Calibrate the scale to zero by using the1/4" nuts screwed along the all thread. Lock them into place. Weigh one 1/4" nut or whatever size suits you from a box of 100. Use the nuts on one side vs whatever you want to weigh on the other. Works just fine for glue and other non-exact weights. Having said that, I just purchased a RCBS Powder Measure to accurately weight changes in freewater, molecular water or holy water in cane as it's soaked, baked and letjust generally sit around. 1 grain = 0.002083 Oz. or 7681.22 grains = 1 lb. catch ya' Don At 08:45 AM 11/2/01 -0600, Grayson Davis wrote: wrote: I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, andfinished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com weighing on the cheap (powder) : weigh out one ounce on a postal scale; fold a piece of shim stock nearly in half; use magic marker to put eleven equally-spaced marks on the channel fromed by the fold; sprinkle, tap and otherwise distribute the oz. evenly inside the marks in the channel; scrape or brush off one division-worth (0.1 oz.) onto a clean sheet of paper; put nine divisions-worth back in the bottle; repeat with the 0.1 oz to get .01 oz. -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from beadman@mac.com Sun Nov 4 08:54:44 2001 fA4Esi700715 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 08:54:44 -0600 ;Sun, 4 Nov 2001 06:54:51 -0800 Subject: Re: I forgot one At 9:03 AM -0500 11/4/01, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 11/4/1 5:14:11 AM, beadman@mac.com writes: rod 30 degrees so that when you cast, an apex of the cross section isdirectly in line with the cast instead of a flat, then you wouldnotice an increase in stiffness >> Interesting Claude, but isn't this the direct opposite of Mr Garrison'sstatement that a rod with the cross section of a symmetrical polygon isequally stiff in all directions? You are talking some big time heresy here! It's possible that I've misinterpreted the equations I mentioned, but I'll have to wait until Monday to check. I do remember that the text lists different formulas for moment of inertia, depending on the bending axis. I also don't have a copy of Garrison's book to re-read his statement. It's obvious that the rod should be equally stiff no matter which flat is used for the guides, but I don't think that's what the equations showed. In any case, I'll look at the stuff on Monday and report back... Claude from briansr@point-net.com Sun Nov 4 08:55:49 2001 fA4Etm700773 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 08:55:48 -0600 Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:15:07 -0500 "Adam Vigil" , "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Stanley plane Old bamboo companies made lots of rods, not lousy rods. If you get a chance like I did to look over a collection of mint rods from the old days do so, you will be surprised. Terryf that "mint" collection was the Yohida stuffI AM NOT SURPRISED !!!!!!Cheers Brian from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Nov 4 12:29:33 2001 fA4ITW702779 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:29:32 -0600 [142.169.183.152] (may be forged)) jvswan@earthlink.net,Rodmakers Subject: Re: Stanley plane How many out there are ready to take the coil spring off a Toyota and Forgeintoplane blades?This is rodmakers at its best and the great part is it is all saved in thearchives.What a legacy we are leaving behind for future whackos!Terry Tony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent andthey'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanleyuse A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on your part.A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or highchrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test lookedlike carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site and theyare nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heat treating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of acompromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be better spent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Qualityplanes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes foreyes. Youknow very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil though water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at homeand alarge association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the membersis ametallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guysaresupplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool qualityingeneral is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being theblacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the samesort oftime is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used byStanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based ontheperformance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was too blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is acompany can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when thebeancounter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much usehandtools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clayanyhowwhen it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be reallysurprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools ratherthanharping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly andRecord(the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makersinduction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so thatdo not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane ironsA-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessivechiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affectthe difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seemto have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Nov 4 12:43:12 2001 fA4IhB703280 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:43:11 -0600 [142.169.183.152] (may be forged)) jvswan@earthlink.net,Rodmakers Subject: Re: Stanley plane Actually Tony the steelmakers class any steel that contains a chromiumcontent ofmore than 3.99% as a heat resisting or stainless steel. A2 contains 5%chromium soit is not a carbon steel by definition of the industry!TerryTony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent andthey'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanleyuse A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on your part.A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or highchrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test lookedlike carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site and theyare nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heat treating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of acompromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be better spent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Qualityplanes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes foreyes. Youknow very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil though water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at homeand alarge association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the membersis ametallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guysaresupplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool qualityingeneral is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being theblacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the samesort oftime is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used byStanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based ontheperformance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was too blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is acompany can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when thebeancounter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much usehandtools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clayanyhowwhen it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be reallysurprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools ratherthanharping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly andRecord(the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makersinduction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so thatdo not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane ironsA-2?If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessivechiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affectthe difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seemto have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Sun Nov 4 12:44:15 2001 [66.133.130.232] (may be forged)) fA4IiE703463 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:44:14 -0600 sender ) Subject: if you are Jim Harris from Arizona read this, all else delete Jim, Contact me off list please. Tom Ausfeld Jim, Contact me off list please. Thanks Tom Ausfeld from martinrjensen@home.com Sun Nov 4 13:05:32 2001 fA4J5V703904 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:05:31 -0600 femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: RE: Stanley plane What I'm wondering is if this best to do in the winter when the air iscolder and more dense. My thinking is that if the air is more dense, itis heavier and there for, pressing harder against the spring steel. Iwould think this would compact it (the spring steel) and make it harder?Also, is the steel in a Nissan spring usable?Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- jvswan@earthlink.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane How many out there are ready to take the coil spring off a Toyota andForge intoplane blades?This is rodmakers at its best and the great part is it is all saved inthearchives.What a legacy we are leaving behind for future whackos!Terry Tony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent and they'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanley use A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on your part. A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or high chrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test looked like carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site and they are nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel! I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heat treating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and 60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be better spent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. You know very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil though water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home and a large association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members is a metallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys are supplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality in general is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being the blacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort of time is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used by Stanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on the performance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was too blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6 fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rolls overboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a company can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when the bean counter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much use hand tools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clay anyhow when it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be really surprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather than harping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record (the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makers induction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that do not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from Dkenney94@cs.com Sun Nov 4 13:22:34 2001 fA4JMX704652 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:22:33 -0600 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:22:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Stanley Plane/Drivel Who Cares? Whats the point? Anybody with half a brain who has ever used,handled, and worked with new & old Stanley plane blades or Hock blades Knows,I repeat KNOWS the new Stanley blades are mostly junk (Fine Pine though) whatever they are made of !! As to Tony & his Toyota spring blades, many blacksmiths use car springs to make edged tools & a goodsmith can forge a blade out of springs that would leave even a Hock Blade in the dust.Frankly, when some one tells me they "Know a thing or two about metal," be they an Engineer, Machinist etc. they tend to be the worst judge of woodworking edged tools. To much with the technical & not enough technique. Dave ever used,handled, and worked with new & old Stanley plane blades orHock blades Knows,I repeat KNOWS the new Stanley blades are mostly junk his Toyota spring blades, many blacksmiths use car springs to make edgedtools & a good smith can forge a blade out of springs that would leaveeven a Hock Blade in the dust. about metal," be they an Engineer, Machinist etc. they tend to be the worstjudge of woodworking edged tools. To much with the technical & notenough technique. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Nov 4 13:40:38 2001 fA4Jeb705530 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:40:37 -0600 ([209.178.135.223] helo=g2t8c9) id 160T8D-0003BJ-00; Sun, 04 Nov 2001 11:40:34 -0800 , "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Stanley plane Terry, Actually knifemakers have for years been taking springs off of vehicles andmaking tools and forging blades. Geez... you need to get out more! Andactually the sad part about the list are guys who dont even use a hand planeare giving out advice on what blades to use. What a laugh! next thing youknow you will be giving lessons on "How to make friends". AdamSubject: Re: Stanley plane How many out there are ready to take the coil spring off a Toyota and Forge into plane blades?This is rodmakers at its best and the great part is it is all saved in thearchives.What a legacy we are leaving behind for future whackos!Terry from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 13:56:23 2001 fA4JuM706178 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:56:22 -0600 04 Nov 2001 11:56:29 PST Subject: Re: Stanley Plane/Drivel hoorah! somebody's got it! timothy --- Dkenney94@cs.com wrote: Who Cares? Whats the point? Anybodywith half a brain who has ever used,handled, and worked with new & old Stanleyplane blades or Hock blades Knows,I repeat KNOWS the new Stanley bladesare mostly junk (Fine for Pine though) whatever they are made of !! As toTony & his Toyota spring blades, many blacksmiths use car springs to makeedged tools & a good smith can forge a blade out of springs that would leaveeven a Hock Blade in the dust.Frankly, when some one tells me they"Know a thing or two about metal," be they an Engineer, Machinist etc. theytend to be the worst judge of woodworking edged tools. To much with thetechnical & not enough technique. Dave ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Nov 4 14:37:28 2001 fA4KbR707361 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:37:27 -0600 ([209.178.136.67] helo=g2t8c9) id 160U1O-0002w3-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 04 Nov 2001 12:37:34 -0800 Subject: Stanley and Hock the inside story The thread on the New stanley blades are as good as Hock blades has anagenda. It is simply to confuse and trip up new makers. There are some onthe list who are trying to get back into rod making and they fear thatamateurs and hobbist cut into their clientle. So any advice they give thatslows down or frustrates the newbies is in their best interest, or so theytell themselves. It is true you can use the new stanley blade, just be prepared to sharpen ina lot! The Hock blade holds an edge longer and you will spend less timesharpening. Enuf said! As for whacko advice how about this "new stanley blades are as good asHock"or " no one can make a good mill or beveler and sell it." Adam from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun Nov 4 15:07:04 2001 fA4L73708266 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:07:03 -0600 Subject: Jaekle rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Isn't someone's last name on the list Jaekle? If so can you contact me off list please?Bret(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) you contact me off list please?Bret(www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from jerryy@webtv.net Sun Nov 4 15:38:38 2001 fA4Lcb709406 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:38:37 -0600 by mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:38:45 -0800 (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id NAA28199; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:38:41 - ETAuAhUAi7z+rl7bW/sRIkCPOF0N5QUsZG4CFQCh0wAMe+QUH1yQK4320FakVTyZ9Q== Subject: Staggered Ferrules Recently saw a nice Cliff Constable rod with staggered ferrules. Haveonly seen a few others ie: Pezon Michel. What design taper would takeadvantage of moving the ferrule below the mid section. Anybody usingthat design now? TIA. Jerry Young from jojo@ipa.net Sun Nov 4 15:55:08 2001 fA4Lt7710197 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:55:07 -0600 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 16:55:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Staggered Ferrules Jerry, I've thought about this before, and the only thing I could come up with wasthat if a rod's action had a certain light spot in it, and this spot wouldhave a ferrule in it, then moving the ferrule would allow the rod to workmore as it was designed, but certainly some allowance in the rod'scross- sectional thickness would have to be made elsewhere to allow for thedisplaced ferrule. M-D Recently saw a nice Cliff Constable rod with staggered ferrules. Haveonly seen a few others ie: Pezon Michel. What design taper would takeadvantage of moving the ferrule below the mid section. Anybody usingthat design now? TIA. Jerry Young from jvswan@earthlink.net Sun Nov 4 17:29:31 2001 fA4NTU713753 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:29:30 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Subject: Plane blades and so forth I want to thank all those who responded to my question regarding Stanleyplanes and Hock blades (irons, sorry). I need to say as well that this is not my business, nor is it my life. Ihave very little use for ultra technical information, nor do I need to knowwhat the composition of my tools are. My interest in this particular craftis simply a desire to create something of value that I can use or give away.At some point, I may even sell a rod or two. I do hope to build many ofthem, and I want to build the best product I can. So, when I asked thequestion, I was looking for was considered and expert opinions. For themost part, that is what I got. And I sincerely thank you all. I may beguilty of making a large assumption here, but I think many of us, certainlymost of the newbies on the list, like myself, don't have much use for thetechnical minutia that came from my original post. Having said all this, I do like to know why I should buy something.Especially when it is comparatively expensive. Knowing what goes into ablade can be important. What is more important, to me, is knowing whatexperienced users think of a particular tool. I have high regard for therod makers on this list. I generally trust you to help me choose propertools and build a better rod. Finally, what is wrong with having an opinion that is not in accordance withthe general consensus of the list (rather, the consensus of those who postto the list)? Terry doesn't believe the Hock blades are worth the price.So what. When I responded to him asking him how one blade could be just ashard as another, I was curious. Now, I'm not. I am so NOT curious...However, I should say that Terry was not the only one to recommend that Iskip the Hock blade and stick with the standard Stanley. He was just themost vociferous of them. Our choice of tools is one of the things thatmakes us craftsmen, in any discipline. So, I will happily accept the gift of a Hock blade, and I will save mypennies and purchase more when I can, because enough of you haveconvincedme that that is a good thing to do. I will also keep my Stanley blade anduse it for roughing. Why not? That is still a decent blade and I might aswell put it to good service. So, sorry for the long post. I guess I kind of feel responsible forstarting it. I also do thank those who have added to my knowledge andunderstanding of the craft. I believe I will be happy with my choice ofblades. If not, well I've lost a lot more than $40 in my life, and I willprobably waste more. What I would rather not waste is valued suggestionsand guidance. Jason PS: If anyone is interested, my father-in-law has a farm full of old trucksprings (and tractor springs, and car springs, etc.) that he would probablygive you a heck of a price on. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Nov 4 17:31:37 2001 fA4NVa714029 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:31:36 -0600 ([209.178.136.94] helo=g2t8c9) id 160Wju-00079n-00; Sun, 04 Nov 2001 15:31:43 -0800 Subject: Re: Staggered Ferrules I believe Per Brandin is using staggard ferrules. I just found his web sitelast night http://www.brandin-splitcane.com/about.html Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Staggered Ferrules Jerry, I've thought about this before, and the only thing I could come up with was that if a rod's action had a certain light spot in it, and this spot wouldhave a ferrule in it, then moving the ferrule would allow the rod to workmore as it was designed, but certainly some allowance in the rod'scross-sectional thickness would have to be made elsewhere to allow for thedisplaced ferrule. M-D From: "Jerry Young" Recently saw a nice Cliff Constable rod with staggered ferrules. Haveonly seen a few others ie: Pezon Michel. What design taper would takeadvantage of moving the ferrule below the mid section. Anybody usingthat design now? TIA. Jerry Young from oakmere@carol.net Sun Nov 4 18:29:01 2001 fA50T0716134 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:29:00 -0600 fA50T0a27194 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:29:01 -0500 Subject: RE: Planes and Engineering Hi Folks: Just a couple of comments on the on-going discussions. Many oldercompanieswere lead by engineering and technology types in the past, and have been"bought out" by the young entreprenuers in finance. Lots of changes intechnology are driven by the bottom line as already pointed out. Many timesthose technology changes are not driven by the "best" technology but bywhat the customer will accept. As consumers, we all need to be aware of thequality of the products we purchase, and demand from the seller qualityproducts. I sure notice all of you on this list do, and I suspect that iswhat the discussion is all about. Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 from bob@downandacross.com Sun Nov 4 19:31:19 2001 fA51VI718430 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:31:18 -0600 "Rodmakers" Subject: RE: Stanley plane Hi Adam:Just because Terry or I do not hand plane the rods per se, does not meanthat we might not use the planes for rods or for other uses. I use minequite a bit for flattening the pith, making the odd nodeless rod splice, andsometimes even, yes, using my forms! Anyway, could you please send me another copy of the heat treatingexperiments? I am firing up Bret's ovens and I want ot make sure that I havesome things to compare my usual regimen with. Thanks a million.Bob-----Original Message----- jvswan@earthlink.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane Terry, Actually knifemakers have for years been taking springs off of vehicles andmaking tools and forging blades. Geez... you need to get out more! Andactually the sad part about the list are guys who dont even use a hand planeare giving out advice on what blades to use. What a laugh! next thing youknow you will be giving lessons on "How to make friends". AdamSubject: Re: Stanley plane How many out there are ready to take the coil spring off a Toyota and Forge into plane blades?This is rodmakers at its best and the great part is it is all saved in thearchives.What a legacy we are leaving behind for future whackos!Terry from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Nov 4 19:40:20 2001 fA51eJ718939 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:40:19 -0600 Subject: Test - disregard Testing a new CPU from crmitchell@ocsonline.com Sun Nov 4 20:20:28 2001 fA52KQ719692 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:20:26 -0600 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:18:05 -0500 Subject: Ferrule Not related to new rods, but...... Restoring a very nice Heddon #125 for a retirement gift and need toreplace a cracked ferrule. Male and female mike 0.293" Anyone haveone for sale or know a source? Barring exact replacement, has anyone had success at duplicating thegold color on Heddon ferrules? Carey Mitcchell from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Nov 4 21:14:00 2001 fA53Dv720780 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:13:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane jvswan@earthlink.net,Rodmakers Now you're being a bit silly. The Hock irons are fine. I forge therefor I do, that's all. Tony At 01:30 PM 11/4/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: How many out there are ready to take the coil spring off a Toyota and Forge intoplane blades?This is rodmakers at its best and the great part is it is all saved in thearchives.What a legacy we are leaving behind for future whackos!Terry Tony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent andthey'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanleyuse A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on yourpart.A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or highchrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test lookedlike carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site andtheyare nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heattreating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of acompromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can'tcomment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be betterspent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Qualityplanes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from theperhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny littlestatements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. You know very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oilthough water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don'trust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home and a large association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members is a metallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels andplane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys are supplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality in general is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being the blacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort of time is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation testin deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used by Stanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chromein it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on the performance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brandnew 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and wastoo blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6 fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when onerollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is acompany can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably whenthe bean counter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much use hand tools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clay anyhow when it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be really surprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather than harping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make ironsgood enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of yearsback. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he saidit but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record (the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Planemakersinduction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so thatdo not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and thatwas all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessivechiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affectthe difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56-58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (andan A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today'sStanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference betweenthe old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seemto have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depthadjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay$40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for$29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Nov 4 21:17:25 2001 fA53HN721069 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:17:24 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane jvswan@earthlink.net,Rodmakers Let em, the irons made from it are pretty damn good anyhow.The source I got the specs from list it as a specialist carbon steel. Not recommended for amateur work due to it's hard to control characteristics.Never done anything with it myself but Hock obviously know how to handle it. Tony At 01:44 PM 11/4/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Actually Tony the steelmakers class any steel that contains a chromium content ofmore than 3.99% as a heat resisting or stainless steel. A2 contains 5% chromium soit is not a carbon steel by definition of the industry!TerryTony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent andthey'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanleyuse A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on yourpart.A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or highchrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test lookedlike carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site andtheyare nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heattreating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of acompromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can'tcomment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be betterspent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Qualityplanes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from theperhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny littlestatements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. You know very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oilthough water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don'trust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home and a large association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members is a metallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels andplane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys are supplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality in general is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being the blacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort of time is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation testin deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used by Stanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chromein it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on the performance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brandnew 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and wastoo blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6 fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when onerollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is acompany can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably whenthe bean counter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much use hand tools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clay anyhow when it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be really surprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather than harping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make ironsgood enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of yearsback. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he saidit but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record (the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Planemakersinduction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so thatdo not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and thatwas all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessivechiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affectthe difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56-58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (andan A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today'sStanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference betweenthe old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seemto have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depthadjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay$40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for$29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Nov 4 21:26:36 2001 fA53QZ721574 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:26:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley Plane/Drivel That's absolutely true. Almost every smith at the forge I was going to was making blades and tools exactly because of the reason you say. If I it looked as if I was trying to tell you I'm some kind of super chiseler just because I like to make my own tools I'm sorry. All I was making the point of was if you HAVE to accept inferior tools consider getting specialist ones made by a guy set up for it of which there are, or make them. I do both, I buy them and make them.The ones I buy are works of art as a rule the ones I make are pretty poor to look at but gee they they work. Tony At 02:22 PM 11/4/01 -0500, Dkenney94@cs.com wrote: Who Cares? Whats the point? Anybody with half a brain who has ever used,handled, and worked with new & old Stanley plane blades or Hock blades Knows,I repeat KNOWS the new Stanley blades are mostly junk (Fine spring blades, many blacksmiths use car springs to make edged tools & a good smith can forge a blade out of springs that would leave even a Hock Blade in the dust.Frankly, when some one tells me they "Know a thing or two about metal," be they an Engineer, Machinist etc. they tend to be the worst judge of woodworking edged tools. To much with the technical & not enough technique. Dave /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from cathcreek@hotmail.com Sun Nov 4 22:24:07 2001 fA54O6722641 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:24:06 -0600 Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:24:05 -0800 Mon, 05 Nov 2001 04:24:05 GMT Subject: Re: Stanley Plane/Drivel FILETIME=[B47FB690:01C165B1] I haven't been following this thread until now, but I would be cautious before being too severe with our friend from down under. Tony is pretty cool and does know a thing or two about a lot of things. Let's not get too hasty to judge folks here. We are all friends for the most part, and that is what keeps this listserve productive, in my opinion. ok, back to your regular programming! Rob Robert ClarkeCatherine Creek Rodscathcreek@hotmail.comhttp://ccr_2.tripod.com/bamboo/index.html From: Tony Young Subject: Re: Stanley Plane/DrivelDate: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 11:31:39 +0800 That's absolutely true. Almost every smith at the forge I was going to wasmaking blades and tools exactly because of the reason you say. If I itlooked as if I was trying to tell you I'm some kind of super chiseler justbecause I like to make my own tools I'm sorry. All I was making the pointof was if you HAVE to accept inferior tools consider getting specialistones made by a guy set up for it of which there are, or make them. I doboth, I buy them and make them.The ones I buy are works of art as a rule the ones I make are pretty poorto look at but gee they they work. Tony At 02:22 PM 11/4/01 -0500, Dkenney94@cs.com wrote: Who Cares? Whats the point? Anybody with half a brain who hasever used,handled, and worked with new & old Stanley plane blades or Hockblades Knows,I repeat KNOWS the new Stanley blades are mostly junk (Fine spring blades, many blacksmiths use car springs to make edged tools & agood smith can forge a blade out of springs that would leave even a HockBlade in the dust.Frankly, when some one tells me they "Know a thing or twoabout metal," be they an Engineer, Machinist etc. they tend to be theworst judge of woodworking edged tools. To much with the technical & notenough technique. Dave /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Nov 4 22:33:29 2001 fA54XS723067 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:33:28 -0600 (authenticated) for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:33:16 -0800 Subject: Re: Stanley Plane/Drivel Okay folks, Haven't we just about beat this one to death? Again? What's this, the10thtime in the 5 or 6 years I've been on the list? Harry-- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from ajthramer@hotmail.com Mon Nov 5 01:22:36 2001 fA57MZ727352 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 01:22:35 -0600 Sun, 4 Nov 2001 23:22:30 -0800 Mon, 05 Nov 2001 07:22:30 GMT Subject: Re: Staggered Ferrules FILETIME=[A1103E40:01C165CA] The reason for the staggered ferrules was put forth by Charles Ritz after he worked at rod design in conjunction with P-M. He also talked about the theory with Constable. The idea was that since the weight of the ferrule is a relatively large force upon the action of the rod even as compared to the weight of the line if you move it lower on the rod it would have less effect and you would move closer to the 'ideal' rod action by minimizing the effect of the ferrules weight. He was adamant that since the weight of the ferrule in many cases exceeded the weight of the line being cast the effect was significant. Sorry about the poor explanation, it sounds like something from DC [:)] A.J. From: jerryy@webtv.net (Jerry Young) Subject: Staggered Ferrules Recently saw a nice Cliff Constable rod with staggered ferrules. Haveonly seen a few others ie: Pezon Michel. What design taper would takeadvantage of moving the ferrule below the mid section. Anybody usingthat design now? TIA. Jerry Young _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Nov 5 02:27:30 2001 fA58RS728170 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:27:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley Plane/Drivel Three excellent books to read before writing off forged tools of either your own or other's work. A great many serious wood workers make theirown tools as well a knife makers who harden their own blades or have them done in temp controlled furnaces. Tool Making For Woodworkers by Ray Larsen ISBN 0-9643999-4-6The Complete Bladesmith by Jim Hrisoulas (be the first kid on your block with a Demascus plane iron, learn how here [:-)] ) ISBN 0-87364-430-1The Complete Modern Blacksmith by Alexander G. Weygers ISBN 0-89815-896-6 Read any of the above books in conjunction with visiting a forge before writing off making your own tools or ridiculing others who do.I'd almost bet anybody who ever visits a working forge and trys it will want to make some tools of their own. The advantages are you need to understand just how a hand tool is designed to work in order to make one which helps you use it better right there as well as gaining an understanding of tempering and how it relates to sharpening of edges and how they hold it. Lastly you can make a hell of a lot of really nice tools over a few weekends and give the junk away.All you need as a minimum is a forge and ball peen hammer and a coil spring.Even if you don't make any tools see if anybody there is interested in making a chisel or plane iron for you and you'll see the difference. Chances are he/she will make it right there and then in front of you.There are plenty of craftsmen making these tools just as there are plenty of people making bamboo rods IMHO they should be supported if possible.Failing that buy a Hock. No matter what you do though any good quality plane iron you can buy new now will not have the name Stanley on it. Tony At 02:22 PM 11/4/01 -0500, Dkenney94@cs.com wrote: Who Cares? Whats the point? Anybody with half a brain who hasever used,handled, and worked with new & old Stanley plane blades orHockblades Knows,I repeat KNOWS the new Stanley blades are mostly junk(Fine spring blades, many blacksmiths use car springs to make edged tools & agood smith can forge a blade out of springs that would leave even a HockBlade in the dust.Frankly, when some one tells me they "Know a thing or twoabout metal," be they an Engineer, Machinist etc. they tend to be theworst judge of woodworking edged tools. To much with the technical ¬enough technique. Dave /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Nov 5 02:34:32 2001 fA58YU728487 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:34:31 -0600 Subject: Re: Plane blades and so forth Nothing wrong with a differing opinion at all except Terry and Noah built the arc with his stuff which is different to what you'd buy in a store now so if you or anybody ask a question about plane irons and somebody tells you to go out and buy something that holds an edge like Plasticine will compared to an iron that will do the job you've got to expect a certain amount of comment. Terry does this just to wind everybody up and all the old hands on the list know this. Soem of us respond knowing we're wasting our time in discussing the points with Terry but it may be of help to newbies wanting to know.If you don't mind a lot of sharpening use the std iron, it'll work. Tony Finally, what is wrong with having an opinion that is not in accordance withthe general consensus of the list (rather, the consensus of those who postto the list)? Terry doesn't believe the Hock blades are worth the price.So what. When I responded to him asking him how one blade could be just ashard as another, I was curious. Now, I'm not. I am so NOT curious...However, I should say that Terry was not the only one to recommend that Iskip the Hock blade and stick with the standard Stanley. He was just themost vociferous of them. Our choice of tools is one of the things thatmakes us craftsmen, in any discipline. So, I will happily accept the gift of a Hock blade, and I will save mypennies and purchase more when I can, because enough of you haveconvincedme that that is a good thing to do. I will also keep my Stanley blade anduse it for roughing. Why not? That is still a decent blade and I might aswell put it to good service. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from danny.twang@pd.no Mon Nov 5 03:14:15 2001 fA59ED728998 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 03:14:14 -0600 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:04:29 +0100 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:04:29 +0100 Subject: Re: Stanley plane I`m having trouble following this thread, but here is my opinion: When Istarted out with rodmaking I used the standard iron along with the newStanley 9 1/2 and 60 1/2. They worked, but I had to resharpen 3-4 times pr.strip!! I never got confident with the 9 1/2 plane, it is too big for myhand and I never got it to take as thin shavings as I wanted. The nextwinter I got me an Record 9 1/2 wich fits my hand better, and after a tuneupit takes very thin savings. I used the std iron, and was still doing a lotof shapening. Last winter I bougt a Hock A2, it holds the edge for a verylong time, but is difficult to sharpen. After a while I bought one of the"old" Hock irons and this is a new world. It is very easy to get a razorsharp edge, and it stay sharp longer than the std irons, not as long as theA2 though. A couple of months ago I bought a sweet vintage Stanley #18withoriginal iron. I tried it, but did not found it as good as the Hoch`s. I nowhave several std irons and a couple of Hock`s and all I use is thelatter..... danny from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Nov 5 04:14:02 2001 fA5AE0729644 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:14:01 -0600 fA5ADq263666; Subject: Re: Stanley plane It doesn't matter one iotaIf it's from a Nissan or Toyota;But if your really need it harder Peter ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Stanley plane What I'm wondering is if this best to do in the winter when the air iscolder and more dense. My thinking is that if the air is more dense, itis heavier and there for, pressing harder against the spring steel. Iwould think this would compact it (the spring steel) and make it harder?Also, is the steel in a Nissan spring usable?Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 10:31 AM Cc: nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca; bob@downandacross.com;jvswan@earthlink.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane How many out there are ready to take the coil spring off a Toyota andForge intoplane blades?This is rodmakers at its best and the great part is it is all saved inthearchives.What a legacy we are leaving behind for future whackos!Terry Tony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent and they'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanley use A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on your part. A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or high chrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test looked like carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site and they are nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel! I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heat treating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and 60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be better spent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. You know very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil though water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home and a large association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members is a metallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys are supplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality in general is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being the blacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort of time is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used by Stanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on the performance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and wastoo blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6 fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rolls overboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a company can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when the bean counter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much use hand tools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clay anyhow when it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be really surprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather than harping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record (the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makers induction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that do not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seem to have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Mon Nov 5 05:25:43 2001 fA5BPg700410 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 05:25:42 -0600 Subject: Handle specifications Hello All, What are peoples personal preferences for styles and sizes of handles. Iam particular interested in diameter and length that builders are usingon various sizes of rods. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from channer@frontier.net Mon Nov 5 07:02:30 2001 fA5D2T701298 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:02:29 -0600 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 06:09:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Handle specifications Steve;I make all grips 6" long, unless someone really wants a differentlength. This is long enough for my hand, which is pretty good size, Ican't stand a grip that's too short or too narrow. If I ever got aLeonard or Orvis that had one of those tiny grips on it, and I was goingto keep it to fish with, that would have to go. I use a kind of fishtailcigar shape that in widest at the front, narrowest under the littlefinger, and has a slight flare at the reel seat on most rods, 8' 5 wt.'sand up get a sort of Heddon half wells. Largest diameter a full inch,like I said, I like something to get a hold of (so do my carpaltunnels). john Steve Trauthwein wrote: Hello All, What are peoples personal preferences for styles and sizes of handles. Iam particular interested in diameter and length that builders are usingon various sizes of rods. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Nov 5 07:12:23 2001 fA5DCM701641 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:12:22 -0600 bob@downandacross.com,jvswan@earthlink.net, Rodmakers Subject: Re: Stanley plane Adam,the original posting was from a guy asking a simple question as to whether aHock blade was worth purchasing. I do not think he was looking to find outwhatthe brightest stars on rodmakers were capable of doing.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Terry, Actually knifemakers have for years been taking springs off of vehiclesandmaking tools and forging blades. Geez... you need to get out more! Andactually the sad part about the list are guys who dont even use a handplaneare giving out advice on what blades to use. What a laugh! next thing youknow you will be giving lessons on "How to make friends". AdamSubject: Re: Stanley plane How many out there are ready to take the coil spring off a Toyota and Forge into plane blades?This is rodmakers at its best and the great part is it is all saved in thearchives.What a legacy we are leaving behind for future whackos!Terry from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Mon Nov 5 07:46:02 2001 [66.133.130.235] (may be forged)) fA5Dk2702558 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:46:02 -0600 sender ) Subject: Re: Stanley Plane/Drivel Tony, Great, thanks... Another damn hobby..... It all started with, "Gee, I thinkI'll make a split bamboo fly rod, they are way to expensive to buy". Thenit goes to , forms are awful expensive, I think I'll make my own. Then Ihave to make a binder and an oven. Then ferrules and reels seats are prettysteep, better make my own. Agate guides are getting up there in price,better make my own. May as well make my own guides and tip tops..... Rodsacks - "Hon, can you show me how to use your sewing machine?"(it is veryhard to look manly in front of a sewing machine, even with a beer near-by,even my son walked by with his head held low in shame), Rod tubes, howhard can that be..... NOW plane irons!! when does this madness stop.Newbies beware, you have no idea how bad this gets...... myself, maybe in the long run, really long run. But you can't put a price onthe knowledge gained. tom ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Stanley Plane/Drivel Three excellent books to read before writing off forged tools of eitheryour own or other's work. A great many serious wood workers make theirowntools as well a knife makers who harden their own blades or have themdonein temp controlled furnaces. Tool Making For Woodworkers by Ray Larsen ISBN 0-9643999-4-6The Complete Bladesmith by Jim Hrisoulas (be the first kid on your blockwith a Demascus plane iron, learn how here [:-)] ) ISBN 0-87364-430-1The Complete Modern Blacksmith by Alexander G. Weygers ISBN 0-89815-896-6 Read any of the above books in conjunction with visiting a forge beforewriting off making your own tools or ridiculing others who do.I'd almost bet anybody who ever visits a working forge and trys it willwant to make some tools of their own. The advantages are you need tounderstand just how a hand tool is designed to work in order to make onewhich helps you use it better right there as well as gaining anunderstanding of tempering and how it relates to sharpening of edges andhow they hold it. Lastly you can make a hell of a lot of really nice toolsover a few weekends and give the junk away.All you need as a minimum is a forge and ball peen hammer and a coil spring. Even if you don't make any tools see if anybody there is interested inmaking a chisel or plane iron for you and you'll see the difference.Chances are he/she will make it right there and then in front of you.There are plenty of craftsmen making these tools just as there are plentyof people making bamboo rods IMHO they should be supported if possible.Failing that buy a Hock. No matter what you do though any good qualityplane iron you can buy new now will not have the name Stanley on it. Tony At 02:22 PM 11/4/01 -0500, Dkenney94@cs.com wrote: Who Cares? Whats the point? Anybody with half a brain who has ever used,handled, and worked with new & old Stanley plane blades or Hock blades Knows,I repeat KNOWS the new Stanley blades are mostly junk (Fine spring blades, many blacksmiths use car springs to make edged tools &agood smith can forge a blade out of springs that would leave even a Hock Blade in the dust.Frankly, when some one tells me they "Know a thing or twoabout metal," be they an Engineer, Machinist etc. they tend to be theworst judge of woodworking edged tools. To much with the technical & not enough technique. Dave /************************************************************************* / AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /************************************************************************* / _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from alspicer99@yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 07:52:52 2001 fA5Dqq702931 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:52:52 -0600 05 Nov 2001 05:52:59 PST Subject: Need spacing for 6'_6" 3 piece Hi all, I'm working on finishing a rod and need some help.Could someone please give me the guide spacing for a6'-6" 3 piece. Thanks, Al SpicerGreensboro, NC __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Nov 5 08:08:37 2001 fA5E8a703592 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:08:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Plane blades and so forth Jason,You now have an idea of the flavour of the list. I gave you an honest opinionafter making many, many rods with a standard plane.During the course of the debate I have received many private e-mails fromlongtime list members agreeing with my personal findings. It is a pity that guyshave to respond privately rather than chance the wrath of certain innercirclemembers.Terry Jason Swan wrote: I want to thank all those who responded to my question regarding Stanleyplanes and Hock blades (irons, sorry). I need to say as well that this is not my business, nor is it my life. Ihave very little use for ultra technical information, nor do I need to knowwhat the composition of my tools are. My interest in this particular craftis simply a desire to create something of value that I can use or give away.At some point, I may even sell a rod or two. I do hope to build many ofthem, and I want to build the best product I can. So, when I asked thequestion, I was looking for was considered and expert opinions. For themost part, that is what I got. And I sincerely thank you all. I may beguilty of making a large assumption here, but I think many of us, certainlymost of the newbies on the list, like myself, don't have much use for thetechnical minutia that came from my original post. Having said all this, I do like to know why I should buy something.Especially when it is comparatively expensive. Knowing what goes into ablade can be important. What is more important, to me, is knowing whatexperienced users think of a particular tool. I have high regard for therod makers on this list. I generally trust you to help me choose propertools and build a better rod. Finally, what is wrong with having an opinion that is not in accordance withthe general consensus of the list (rather, the consensus of those who postto the list)? Terry doesn't believe the Hock blades are worth the price.So what. When I responded to him asking him how one blade could be justashard as another, I was curious. Now, I'm not. I am so NOT curious...However, I should say that Terry was not the only one to recommend that Iskip the Hock blade and stick with the standard Stanley. He was just themost vociferous of them. Our choice of tools is one of the things thatmakes us craftsmen, in any discipline. So, I will happily accept the gift of a Hock blade, and I will save mypennies and purchase more when I can, because enough of you haveconvincedme that that is a good thing to do. I will also keep my Stanley blade anduse it for roughing. Why not? That is still a decent blade and I might aswell put it to good service. So, sorry for the long post. I guess I kind of feel responsible forstarting it. I also do thank those who have added to my knowledge andunderstanding of the craft. I believe I will be happy with my choice ofblades. If not, well I've lost a lot more than $40 in my life, and I willprobably waste more. What I would rather not waste is valued suggestionsand guidance. Jason PS: If anyone is interested, my father-in-law has a farm full of old trucksprings (and tractor springs, and car springs, etc.) that he would probablygive you a heck of a price on. from caneman@clnk.com Mon Nov 5 08:10:39 2001 fA5EAc703854 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:10:38 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Handle specifications Steve,Probably 80% of my rods leave here with a 6" to 7" straight torpedo typegrip, diameter between 1" and 1 1/8". Of course, most of my rods are 7'6"or under. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://members.clnk.com/caneman/images/flystuff/caneindex.htm- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Handle specifications Hello All, What are peoples personal preferences for styles and sizes of handles. Iam particular interested in diameter and length that builders are usingon various sizes of rods. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from LambersonW@missouri.edu Mon Nov 5 08:24:52 2001 fA5EOq704964 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:24:52 -0600 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:24:59 -0600 Rodmakers Subject: RE: Handle specifications Steve, I build the reel seat and handle as one. They have a total of 19 rings or 91/2 inches. I make the transition from handle to reel seat in the middle ofthe seventh ring from the butt, leaving between 6 and 6 1/2 inches for thehandle. The handle is sanded to a cigar or torpedo shape, just under aninch at max, about 7/8" at the top and bottom. The thickest part is a bitabove the center. I use this same general shape for everything from fourweights to eight weights although usually take an extra eighth inch off thesmallest rods. Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Handle specifications Hello All, What are peoples personal preferences for styles and sizes of handles. Iam particular interested in diameter and length that builders are usingon various sizes of rods. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from jojo@ipa.net Mon Nov 5 08:30:02 2001 fA5EU1705409 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:30:01 -0600 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:30:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Staggered Ferrules Makes sense. Even though the ferrule is progressed down the length of therod, and the size and weight of it increases, it is still in an area wherethe effect diminishes. Thanks, A.J. M-D ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Staggered Ferrules The reason for the staggered ferrules was put forth by Charles Ritz after he worked at rod design in conjunction with P-M. He also talked about thetheory with Constable. The idea was that since the weight of the ferrule is a relatively large force upon the action of the rod even as compared to the weight of the line if you move it lower on the rod it would have less effect and you would move closer to the 'ideal' rod action by minimizing the effect of the ferrules weight. He was adamant that since the weight of the ferrule in many cases exceeded the weight of the line being cast the effect wassignificant. Sorry about the poor explanation, it sounds like something from DC [:)] A.J. From: jerryy@webtv.net (Jerry Young) Subject: Staggered Ferrules Recently saw a nice Cliff Constable rod with staggered ferrules. Haveonly seen a few others ie: Pezon Michel. What design taper would takeadvantage of moving the ferrule below the mid section. Anybody usingthat design now? TIA. Jerry Young _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Nov 5 08:40:32 2001 fA5EeU706161 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:40:31 -0600 Subject: Re: Plane blades and so forth A plane & iron of great antiquity. Remember the dinosaurs once walked the earth and great tool makers once made good tools.As for the several makers who've contacted you off list, assuming there were any so be it, too bad they didn't reply on list because it may have helped the person who asked.I know there were several who did reply who know from actually using the irons in question and none mentioned feeling ripped off, on the contrary actually.I don't really think I'm all that difficult or prickly to approach, hell I even waste my time with you, so you're not suggesting I'M the one stifling debate? Be serious.If you're trying to look the injured party in all this again so be it. It'll only be the newbies who haven't seen you in full flight but unfortunately the very people asking the questions haven't seen you in action and are unaware of your MO.No matter, you're sprouting bull shit and this will become obvious in time.Don't feel to bad about not being able to forge your own tools either, you'll pick it up if you try just as thousands of others have, but you wont. Tony At 09:10 AM 11/5/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Jason,You now have an idea of the flavour of the list. I gave you an honest opinionafter making many, many rods with a standard plane. AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from lblan@provide.net Mon Nov 5 08:47:11 2001 fA5ElB706670 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:47:11 -0600 with HTTP id 3959375 for ; Mon, 05 Nov2001 09:47:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Plane blades and so forth Terry; I'm sure that some folks responded privately out offear that the text might jump off the screen and choke them,but I'm just as certain that most of us stuck to privatereplies out of respect for the bandwidth involved in theselong discussions. I do know that I sent at least two privatemessages. My opinion was not swayed by the discussion, and Irather doubt that great quantities of used Stanley or Hockblades will appear for sale next week. Jason does indeed have an idea of the flavor of the list.Hopefully, it is one that he arrived at by himself. Larry Blan On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 09:10:27 -0500"T. Ackland" wrote: Jason,You now have an idea of the flavour of the list. I gaveyou an honest opinionafter making many, many rods with a standard plane.During the course of the debate I have received manyprivate e-mails from longtime list members agreeing with my personal findings. Itis a pity that guyshave to respond privately rather than chance the wrath ofcertain inner circlemembers.Terry from jojo@ipa.net Mon Nov 5 08:48:04 2001 fA5Em4706804 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:48:04 -0600 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:48:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Handle specifications Steve, I prefer more of a torpedo shape, approx. 1 1/8" at its max. diameter, and61/2" long. I have large hands. For custom rods I try to fit grips to theindividual, and the production rods get a standard cigar-style grip, thoughone of 1" in diameter, rather than the tiny 3/4" that is usually found. Onlonger and/or heavier rods I use a variation of a Full Wells. M-D ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Handle specifications Hello All, What are peoples personal preferences for styles and sizes of handles. Iam particular interested in diameter and length that builders are usingon various sizes of rods. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 08:56:53 2001 fA5Euq707556 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:56:52 -0600 05 Nov 2001 06:56:59 PST Subject: Re: Plane blades and so forth again, as usual, this is b.s. timothy--- "T. Ackland" wrote: Jason,You now have an idea of the flavour of the list. Igave you an honest opinionafter making many, many rods with a standard plane.During the course of the debate I have receivedmany private e-mails from longtime list members agreeing with my personalfindings. It is a pity that guyshave to respond privately rather than chance thewrath of certain inner circlemembers.Terry Jason Swan wrote: I want to thank all those who responded to my question regarding Stanley planes and Hock blades (irons, sorry). I need to say as well that this is not my business, nor is it my life. I have very little use for ultra technical information, nor do I need to know what the composition of my tools are. My interest in this particular craft is simply a desire to create something of value that I can use or give away. At some point, I may even sell a rod or two. I do hope to build many of them, and I want to build the best product I can. So, when I asked the question, I was looking for was considered and expert opinions. For the most part, that is what I got. And I sincerely thank you all. I may be guilty of making a large assumption here, but I think many of us, certainly most of the newbies on the list, like myself, don't have much use for the technical minutia that came from my original post. Having said all this, I do like to know why I should buy something. Especially when it is comparatively expensive. Knowing what goes into a blade can be important. What is more important, to me, is knowing what experienced users think of a particular tool. I have high regard for the rod makers on this list. I generally trust you to help me choose proper tools and build a better rod. Finally, what is wrong with having an opinion that is not in accordance with the general consensus of the list (rather, the consensus of those who post to the list)? Terry doesn't believe the Hock blades are worth the price. So what. When I responded to him asking him how one blade could be just as hard as another, I was curious. Now, I'm not. I am so NOT curious... However, I should say that Terry was not the only one to recommend that I skip the Hock blade and stick with the standard Stanley. He was just the most vociferous of them. Our choice of tools is one of the things that makes us craftsmen, in any discipline. So, I will happily accept the gift of a Hock blade, and I will save my pennies and purchase more when I can, because enough of you have convinced me that that is a good thing to do. I will also keep my Stanley blade and use it for roughing. Why not? That is still a decent blade and I might as well put it to good service. So, sorry for the long post. I guess I kind of feel responsible for starting it. I also do thank those who have added to my knowledge and understanding of the craft. I believe I will be happy with my choice of blades. If not, well I've lost a lot more than $40 in my life, and I will probably waste more. What I would rather not waste is valued suggestions and guidance. Jason PS: If anyone is interested, my father-in-law has a farm full of old truck springs (and tractor springs, and car springs, etc.) that he would probably give you a heck of a price on. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Nov 5 08:58:25 2001 fA5EwN707764 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:58:24 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane jvswan@earthlink.net,Rodmakers Presumably you are a leading light, English trained in you're chosen trade over a 4 year period which is done that way to ensure tradesmen have a certain standard at which they work and expect from apprentices.So why are you bull shitting about something you know is incorrect?A simple question:HAVE you tried a current plane iron from Stanley or Record or do you wrap yourself up in your security blanket of trade names of the past? The reason I hate your attitude towards newbies and people on the list in general and persist in making my point is you give false ideas with the sole intention of stiring and because you come and go usually with a flush rather than a bang anybody on list long enough to have seen this happen more than twice simply don't respond and in fact block you.Having done an apprenticeship based on the English method myself I've seen tradesmen hide secretes and use dis information to try to keep their own little tricks of the trade secrete. There's no problem with that, none at all but these guys don't normally say anything at all when asked or don't offer info in the first place.You on the other hand tend to like wild goose chases that wile and wend around uselessly intentionally putting off beginners and it's this reason I persist when smarter people simply block you. Tony At 08:13 AM 11/5/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Adam,the original posting was from a guy asking a simple question as to whetheraHock blade was worth purchasing. I do not think he was looking to find out whatthe brightest stars on rodmakers were capable of doing.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Terry, Actually knifemakers have for years been taking springs off of vehiclesandmaking tools and forging blades. Geez... you need to get out more! Andactually the sad part about the list are guys who dont even use a hand plane are giving out advice on what blades to use. What a laugh! next thing youknow you will be giving lessons on "How to make friends". AdamSubject: Re: Stanley plane How many out there are ready to take the coil spring off a Toyota and Forge into plane blades?This is rodmakers at its best and the great part is it is all saved in the archives.What a legacy we are leaving behind for future whackos!Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from Dennishigham@cs.com Mon Nov 5 09:11:47 2001 fA5FBl708746 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:11:47 -0600 Subject: Re: RALI planes Jason,I tried the Rali a few years ago. I didn't like them. The amount of blade exposure was way too hard to adjust and wouldn't hold the adjustment very well. You might take a .001 shaving this pass and .004 the next. Also the square "boxy" body wasn't comfortable to use for any period of time. Dennis from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Mon Nov 5 09:15:00 2001 [66.133.130.235] (may be forged)) fA5FEx709187 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:14:59 -0600 sender ) Subject: Stanely vs. Hock Hello, Stanely and record plane irons are garbage. Actually worse than that, a =scourge to be erased from humanity. To do my part in this battle, send =me all of your stanley/record plane irons immediately. I will find a = Tom Ausfeld Hello, this battle, send me all of your stanley/record plane irons = Tom Ausfeld from JNL123141@msn.com Mon Nov 5 09:39:37 2001 fA5Fda711080 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:39:36 -0600 Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:39:38 -0800 Subject: Re: Plane blades and so forth FILETIME=[144D6190:01C16610] Jason,You really got more than you bargained for on this topic but what the hec=k, just think how dull life would be if we were all trite, polite and wer=e afraid to speak our minds.Regarding your father's junk yard....I've always been partial to '37 Chev=y's with white walls.... ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Plane blades and so forth I want to thank all those who responded to my question regarding Stanleyplanes and Hock blades (irons, sorry). I need to say as well that this is not my business, nor is it my life. Ihave very little use for ultra technical information, nor do I need to kn=owwhat the composition of my tools are. My interest in this particular cra=ftis simply a desire to create something of value that I can use or give aw=ay.At some point, I may even sell a rod or two. I do hope to build many ofthem, and I want to build the best product I can. So, when I asked thequestion, I was looking for was considered and expert opinions. For themost part, that is what I got. And I sincerely thank you all. I may beguilty of making a large assumption here, but I think many of us, certain=lymost of the newbies on the list, like myself, don't have much use for thetechnical minutia that came from my original post. Having said all this, I do like to know why I should buy something.Especially when it is comparatively expensive. Knowing what goes into ablade can be important. What is more important, to me, is knowing whatexperienced users think of a particular tool. I have high regard for therod makers on this list. I generally trust you to help me choose propertools and build a better rod. Finally, what is wrong with having an opinion that is not in accordance w=iththe general consensus of the list (rather, the consensus of those who pos=tto the list)? Terry doesn't believe the Hock blades are worth the price.So what. When I responded to him asking him how one blade could be just =ashard as another, I was curious. Now, I'm not. I am so NOT curious...However, I should say that Terry was not the only one to recommend that Iskip the Hock blade and stick with the standard Stanley. He was just themost vociferous of them. Our choice of tools is one of the things thatmakes us craftsmen, in any discipline. So, I will happily accept the gift of a Hock blade, and I will save mypennies and purchase more when I can, because enough of you haveconvince=dme that that is a good thing to do. I will also keep my Stanley blade an=duse it for roughing. Why not? That is still a decent blade and I might =aswell put it to good service. So, sorry for the long post. I guess I kind of feel responsible forstarting it. I also do thank those who have added to my knowledge andunderstanding of the craft. I believe I will be happy with my choice ofblades. If not, well I've lost a lot more than $40 in my life, and I wil=lprobably waste more. What I would rather not waste is valued suggestionsand guidance. Jason PS: If anyone is interested, my father-in-law has a farm full of old tru=cksprings (and tractor springs, and car springs, etc.) that he would probab=lygive you a heck of a price on. Jason, You really got more than you bargained for on this topic but what the=heck, just think how dull life would be if we were all trite, polite and=were afraid to speak our minds. Regarding your father's junk = ----- Original Message ----- From: Jason Swan Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 6:30 re=garding Stanleyplanes and Hock blades (irons, sorry).I needt= rticular craftis simply a desire to create something of value that I =can use or give away.At some point, I may even sell a rod or two.&nbs=p; I do hope to build many ofthem, and I want to build the best produ= king a large assumption here, but I think many of us, certainlymost o=f the newbies on the list, like myself, don't have much use for thete=chnical minutia that came from my original post.Having said all t=his, I do like to know why I should buy something.Especially when it = b= whatexpe= se propertools and build a better rod.Finally, what is wrong =with having an opinion that is not in accordance withthe general cons=ensus of the list (rather, the consensus of those who postto the list= o NOT curious...However, I should say that Terry was not the only one=to recommend that Iskip the Hock blade and stick with the standard S= choic=e of tools is one of the things thatmakes us craftsmen, in any discip=line.So, I will happily accept the gift of a Hock blade, and I wi=ll save mypennies and purchase more when I can, because enough ofyou= Th=at is still a decent blade and I might aswell put it to good service.= ld rather not waste is valued suggestionsand of old trucksprings (and tractor springs, and car springs, etc.) tha=t he would probablygive you a heck of a priceon. from dmanders@telusplanet.net Mon Nov 5 10:06:18 2001 fA5G6H712590 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:06:17 -0600 Subject: About scales - building your own Guys/Gals, Now I didn't invent the idea but it makes sense and it works.Construct a beam scale using a 1/4" all thread bolt c/w 3 nuts on each sideof the center. Drill a hole @ the center of the all thread and attach aloop of stiff wire that will act as a fulcrum/hanging loop. Attach somepans you can make out of 20 gage tin. I used 20 lb. test wire leaders toattach the pans to the beam ends. Calibrate the scale to zero by using the1/4" nuts screwed along the all thread. Lock them into place.Weigh one 1/4" nut or whatever size suits you from a box of 100. Use thenuts on one side vs whatever you want to weigh on the other.Works just fine for glue and other non-exact weights. Having said that, Ijust purchased a RCBS Powder Measure to accurately weight changes in freewater, molecular water or holy water in cane as it's soaked, baked and letjust generally sit around. 1 grain = 0.002083 Oz. or 7681.22 grains = 1 lb. catch ya' Don At 08:45 AM 11/2/01 -0600, Grayson Davis wrote: wrote: I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, andfinished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com weighing on the cheap (powder) : weigh out one ounce on a postal scale; fold a piece of shim stock nearly in half; use magic marker to put eleven equally-spaced marks on the channel fromed by the fold; sprinkle, tap and otherwise distribute the oz. evenly inside the marks in the channel; scrape or brush off one division-worth (0.1 oz.) onto a clean sheet of paper; put nine divisions-worth back in the bottle; repeat with the 0.1 oz to get .01 oz. -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from lblan@provide.net Mon Nov 5 10:28:20 2001 fA5GSK714795 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:28:20 -0600 with HTTP id 3966071; Mon, 05 Nov 2001 11:28:28 -0500 Subject: Re: About scales - building your own Hmmm... you might use troy pounds to weigh the holy water,but for the rest, I'd go with the avoirdupois system, 7000grains per pound, 1 grain = .00229 ounces. Larry Blan On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 09:01:03 -0700Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys/Gals, Now I didn't invent the idea but it makes sense and itworks.Construct a beam scale using a 1/4" all thread bolt c/w 3nuts on each sideof the center. Drill a hole @ the center of the allthread and attach aloop of stiff wire that will act as a fulcrum/hangingloop. Attach somepans you can make out of 20 gage tin. I used 20 lb. testwire leaders toattach the pans to the beam ends. Calibrate the scale tozero by using the1/4" nuts screwed along the all thread. Lock them intoplace.Weigh one 1/4" nut or whatever size suits you from a boxof 100. Use thenuts on one side vs whatever you want to weigh on theother.Works just fine for glue and other non-exact weights.Having said that, Ijust purchased a RCBS Powder Measure to accurately weightchanges in freewater, molecular water or holy water in cane as it'ssoaked, baked and letjust generally sit around. 1 grain = 0.002083 Oz. or7681.22 grains = 1 lb. catch ya' Don At 08:45 AM 11/2/01 -0600, Grayson Davis wrote: wrote: I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, and finished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com weighing on the cheap (powder) : weigh out one ounce on a postal scale; fold a piece of shim stock nearly in half; use magic marker to put eleven equally-spaced marks on the channel fromed by the fold;sprinkle, tap and otherwise distribute the oz. evenly inside the marks in the channel; scrape or brush off one division-worth (0.1 oz.) onto a clean sheet of paper; put nine divisions-worth back in the bottle; repeat with the 0.1 oz to get .01 oz. -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 10:46:20 2001 fA5GkJ720387 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:46:19 -0600 Mon, 05 Nov 2001 08:46:27 PST Subject: Seeking Barry Kling Barry, could you email me. I've misplaced your emailand would like to ask you a question. Thanks,Bill Walters __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from DNHayashida@aol.com Mon Nov 5 12:09:10 2001 fA5I99707019 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:09:09 -0600 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:08:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Stanely vs. Hock Seriously, if you really want my stock new Stanley and new Record blades I'll send mine to you. What's your address? They are almost brand new, the only use they got was when I was comparing them to Hock blades. Now if you are talking about the old blades I got on the 75 to 100 year old planes I got off of eBay, no way!Darryl In a message dated 11/5/01 7:17:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, tausfeld@frontiernet.net writes: Hello,Stanely and record plane irons are garbage. Actually worse than that, a scourge to be erased from humanity. To do my part in this battle, send me all of your stanley/record plane irons immediately. I will find a proper way to dispose of them. Tom AusfeldPlane Iron Disposal Dept. Seriously, if you really want my stock new Stanley and new Recordblades I'll send mine to you. What's your address? They are almost brandnew, the only use they got was when I was comparing them to Hock blades.Now if you are talking about the old blades I got on the 75 to 100 year oldplanes I got off of eBay, no way!Darryl In a message dated 11/5/01 7:17:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,tausfeld@frontiernet.net writes:Hello, than that, a scourge to be erased from humanity. To do my part in this will find a proper way to dispose of them. Tom Ausfeld from beadman@mac.com Mon Nov 5 12:15:58 2001 fA5IFv708034 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:15:57 -0600 Subject: Re: I forgot one At 12:12 AM -0500 11/4/01, Claude Freaner wrote: At 2:02 PM -0500 , 11/3/01, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote about Re: I forgotone In a message dated 11/3/1 5:41:44 PM, rsgould@cmc.net writes: mathematics" >> Hi Ray - Your argument makes sense, and is one of the explanations I haveconsidered, BUT does the small amount of twist we apply actuallyconcentratemore material into the cross section? I have never noticed any significantdifference in the lengths of the sections after twisting. It's not the AREA in the cross section that is increased, but the AMOUNT of the area that becomes farther from the center line axis of the rod that causes the increased stiffness. If you could turn the rod 30 degrees so that when you cast, an apex of the cross section is directly in line with the cast instead of a flat, then you would notice an increase in stiffness - this increase in stiffness is because an increased amount of the cross-sectional area is now farther from the rod centerline. For example: consider using a piece of wood that measures 1 inch wide by 1/2 inch thick. If you put the guides on the wide side, so that you have a very wide but relatively thin rod, it would be absolutely wimpy and cast like a noodle. On the other had, if you put the guides on the 1/2 inch wide side and cast it accordingly, you'd have a very stiff rod. The cross sectional area hasn't changed at all, but a large amount of the cross sectional area has moved farther from the centerline. I have the equations for a hex rod at work, not here at home, so I won't be able to tell you exactly how much the difference in stiffness is, but there is a difference. I'll work out the equations at lunch on Monday, and send it to you. Well, I have bad news and good news to report about the above. The bad news is that I was incorrect about the moment of inertia changing according to the bending axis. I was correct for a non-symmetrical object such as a 2 x 4, but for symmetrical objects such as a six-sided fly rod, the moment of inertia doesn't change. The good news: the stiffness does in fact change and can be predicted mathematically. The formula for stress is MC/I where M is the moment applied (weight of line plus the part of the rod closer to the tip from the point being considered, for example), I is the moment of inertia, and C is the distance of the farthest fibers from the rod center. For a 6 sided rod, when held so that a flat is in the direction of casting (normal rod), the distance of the fibers farthest from the rod center is D/2 where D is the distance between the flats (rod diameter) at a given station on the rod. When the rod is rotated 30 degrees so that an apex faces in the direction of casting, the distance of the fibers farthest from the rod center is now equal to D/sqrt(3) or D/1.732. The ratio of these two distances ( 2 : 1.732 ) says that the fibers 1.1547 times as far. This means that the bending stress will be 1.1547 times greater at this point. One conclusion I can reach from this is that the least stress will be placed on a fly rod if it is cast with the flat facing in the direction of the cast. Conversely, if one rotates one's wrist during the cast so that the apex is facing forward, the rod is experiencing 15% greater stress than if one cast "correctly". This probably doesn't matter much unless a rod is built that has stress values that are extremely high, where they may be close to the maximum; Now, as to stiffness. An easy conclusion to jump to is that the higher stress indicates a stiffer rod at that point, but I'm not sure that is a correct conclusion to make. Upon further reading, I found the equation for amount of deflection y = - WL3/(3EI) where W is the load, L is the length, E is the modulus of elasticity, and I is the moment of inertia. Since I is the same turned, the equation tells us that there is no change in stiffness based on whether a flat is in the direction of the cast or an apex! Since I doesn't change, and W and L are both constants, the only conclusion is that either the modulus of elasticity changes when the rod is made with an intentional twist in it, or there is no increase in stiffness. Since bamboo is a plant, it MAY be possible that its modulus of elasticity would change when twisted; we know it's modulus of elasticity changes when it's tempered, so twisting may do the same. In any case, it doesn't appear that the geometry involved causes a change in stiffness, unless the increased stress is directly translatable to stiffness. I suppose someone could obtain some empirical data by making a whole lot of identical blanks (meaning the diameters at each station were hang a weight off the tip of each to see which flexed least (was more stiff...). Have any of you actually measured something like this in the past? I suspect that with all the variability induced by bamboo being a natural substance, that the sample size for statistical significance would be prohibitive. Finally, the disclaimer: I'm no expert on stress and strain; I wanted to learn more about it, so I got a book and read up on the subject. I may have misinterpreted some of the stuff in the book, so if any of you really understand this stuff, please correct me if I've done something wrong with the math. Thanks,Claude from DNHayashida@aol.com Mon Nov 5 12:44:40 2001 fA5Iie712882 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:44:40 -0600 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:44:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Stanley plane In a message dated 11/5/01 7:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, avyoung@iinet.net.au writes: A portion snipped for brevity. The reason I hate your attitude towards newbies and people on the list in general and persist in making my point i A portion snipped for brevity. You on the other hand tend to like wild goose chases that wile and wend around uselessly intentionally putting off beginners and it's this reason I persist when smarter people simply block you. Tony Good points Tony!I must admit I have blocked TA's posts due to their mostly inane contentsbut you have brought home the fact that I am doing a disservice to the list that helped me in getting started in a most satisfying hobby. And yes, it is a hobby, not a way to make a living for me, so hand planing is fine, in fact preferred to powered bevelers. I have even gone back to hand planing on my forms rather than my Morgan handmill for selected projects. I guess I should join your lone voice of reason.P.S.I'll be contacting you about the ferrules, but today I have to help my In-Laws move.Darryl Hayashida In amessage dated 11/5/01 7:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,avyoung@iinet.net.au writes: A portion snipped for brevity. The reason I hate your attitude towards newbies and people on the listin general and persist in making my point i A portion snipped for brevity. You on the other hand tend to like wild goose chases that wile and wend around uselessly intentionally putting off beginners and it's this reason I persist when smarter people simply block you. Tony Good points Tony!I must admit I have blocked TA's posts due to their mostly inanecontents but you have brought home the fact that I am doing a disservice tothe list that helped me in getting started in a most satisfying hobby. Andyes, it is a hobby, not a way to make a living for me, so hand planing is fine,in fact preferred to powered bevelers. I have even gone back to hand planingon my forms rather than my Morgan handmill for selected projects. I guess Ishould join your lone voice of reason.P.S.I'll be contacting you about the ferrules, but today I have to help my In-Laws move.Darryl Hayashida from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Mon Nov 5 13:39:31 2001 fA5JdU725586 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:39:30 -0600 Subject: Varnishing by brush Does anyone have any good tricks for brushing varnish?Best type of brush? Soft or hard bristle? Thanks, Peter from edriddle@mindspring.com Mon Nov 5 14:20:41 2001 fA5KKe705464 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:20:40 -0600 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:20:34 -0500 Subject: Fw: Varnishing by brush Peter:I've used the inexpensive narrow foam brush applying poly with good results.Haven't tried bristles. Use drip tube for spar, didn't have the tube when Iused the foam brush.Ed----- Original Message ----- Subject: Varnishing by brush Does anyone have any good tricks for brushing varnish?Best type of brush? Soft or hard bristle? Thanks, Peter from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Mon Nov 5 14:26:29 2001 fA5KQS707047 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:26:28 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:14:14 -0600 Subject: RE: Stanley plane Terry and Tony -- These classes overlap. If it has carbon in it, it is a carbon steel. Thereare subclasses called low carbon, medium carbon, and high carbon thatdescribe the carbon content. If it has more than 4% Cr and more than .5%Mo, it is generally a stainless. The proper classification (most accurateand descriptive) of A2 is "Air-Hardenable Tool Steel" or "Air QuenchableTool Steel". Out of any metals handbook. The benefit of using A2 toolsteel (in general) is that you can finish machine a part, and then HT it andquench it without it significantly distorting. Most other steels used todayrequire a more rapid quenching sequence, by water or oil, which ends updistorting (i.e. - warping) the part. Therefore you could not finishmachine most steels before heat treating. I have finish-machined parts made from A2 (plane irons, in fact) before HT,and let me tell you, it is nice to do. Milling is so much easier onannealed steel than on hardened steel. That was my main motivation in usingthe A2. I did it before Ron Hock came out with his A2's, but I did not findthem to be tough enough. My hardness was fine at about 58 to 59, but theydulled very quickly. When looked at under a jewelers lupe, distinct chipswere observable. Not just the normal "rounding" which I would call wear,but actual chipping. I deduced, therefore, that I could not maintaintoughness at high hardness with this metal. Hock has found a way to do thiswith his freezing process, but I am not a big fan of liquid N2.... Thanks goes to Bob Nunley for helping me test these (unacceptable) irons.Bob, do you still have them? How about we anneal them and try anon- "by-the-book" HT and quench routine? I'll pick them up when I come upnext month and try something completely different.... TAM -----Original Message----- jvswan@earthlink.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane Actually Tony the steelmakers class any steel that contains a chromiumcontent ofmore than 3.99% as a heat resisting or stainless steel. A2 contains 5%chromium soit is not a carbon steel by definition of the industry!TerryTony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent and they'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanleyuse A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on your part.A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or highchrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test lookedlike carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site and theyare nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heat treating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be better spent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. You know very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oil though water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here at home and a large association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members is a metallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys are supplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality in general is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being the blacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort of time is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used by Stanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on the performance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brand new 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and was too blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6 fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a company can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably when the bean counter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much use hand tools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t form clay anyhow when it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be really surprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather than harping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record (the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makers induction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so thatdo not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and that was all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessivechiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seemto have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for $29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from ajthramer@hotmail.com Mon Nov 5 15:00:13 2001 fA5L0C714068 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:00:12 -0600 Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:00:15 -0800 Mon, 05 Nov 2001 21:00:15 GMT Subject: Re: Need spacing for 6'_6" 3 piece FILETIME=[DE21EA00:01C1663C] from tip in inches3.37.011.7517.5bottom guide on tip-should butt against the tip male ferrule3342.5strip guide shouls butt against the butt female ferruleA.J. From: al spicer Subject: Need spacing for 6'_6" 3 piece Hi all, I'm working on finishing a rod and need some help.Could someone please give me the guide spacing for a6'-6" 3 piece. Thanks, Al SpicerGreensboro, NC __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Nov 5 17:15:17 2001 fA5NFC705769 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:15:12 -0600 bob@downandacross.com, jvswan@earthlink.net,Rodmakers Subject: Re: Stanley plane Tony,give us break.How is it you can turn a simple question into a long story that always turnsintointo self promotion?Please do not reply, I will not be opening any of your posts so do not wasteyourtime.Terry Tony Young wrote: Presumably you are a leading light, English trained in you're chosen tradeover a 4 year period which is done that way to ensure tradesmen have acertain standard at which they work and expect from apprentices.So why are you bull shitting about something you know is incorrect?A simple question:HAVE you tried a current plane iron from Stanley or Record or do you wrapyourself up in your security blanket of trade names of the past? The reason I hate your attitude towards newbies and people on the list ingeneral and persist in making my point is you give false ideas with thesole intention of stiring and because you come and go usually with a flushrather than a bang anybody on list long enough to have seen this happenmore than twice simply don't respond and in fact block you.Having done an apprenticeship based on the English method myself I'veseentradesmen hide secretes and use dis information to try to keep their ownlittle tricks of the trade secrete. There's no problem with that, none atall but these guys don't normally say anything at all when asked or don'toffer info in the first place.You on the other hand tend to like wild goose chases that wile and wendaround uselessly intentionally putting off beginners and it's this reason Ipersist when smarter people simply block you. Tony At 08:13 AM 11/5/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Adam,the original posting was from a guy asking a simple question as towhether aHock blade was worth purchasing. I do not think he was looking to find outwhatthe brightest stars on rodmakers were capable of doing.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Terry, Actually knifemakers have for years been taking springs off ofvehicles andmaking tools and forging blades. Geez... you need to get out more! Andactually the sad part about the list are guys who dont even use a hand plane are giving out advice on what blades to use. What a laugh! next thingyouknow you will be giving lessons on "How to make friends". AdamSubject: Re: Stanley plane How many out there are ready to take the coil spring off a Toyotaand Forge into plane blades?This is rodmakers at its best and the great part is it is all saved in the archives.What a legacy we are leaving behind for future whackos!Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from dickay@alltel.net Mon Nov 5 17:31:53 2001 fA5NVr706434 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:31:53 -0600 srv.alltel.net Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:31:56 -0600 Subject: Re: I forgot one OK all you PMQ builders. Here is your chance to prove Claude's point.Build two PMQ's. They both need to be the same dimensions and from thesameculm and heat treated the same. The dimensions need to be such that thetherods are a little wider than they are thick. Then on one rod put the guideson the wide side and on the other rod put the guides on the thin side.Which rod is stiffer. Hey, some enterprising soul might even put two sets of guides on one rod toprove this point, one set on the wide side and one set on the thin side. Would one of these methods prove the point?Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: I forgot one At 2:02 PM -0500 , 11/3/01, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote about Re: Iforgot one In a message dated 11/3/1 5:41:44 PM, rsgould@cmc.net writes: mathematics" >> Hi Ray - Your argument makes sense, and is one of the explanations I haveconsidered, BUT does the small amount of twist we apply actually concentrate more material into the cross section? I have never noticed any significant difference in the lengths of the sections after twisting. It's not the AREA in the cross section that is increased, but theAMOUNT of the area that becomes farther from the center line axis ofthe rod that causes the increased stiffness. If you could turn therod 30 degrees so that when you cast, an apex of the cross section isdirectly in line with the cast instead of a flat, then you wouldnotice an increase in stiffness - this increase in stiffness isbecause an increased amount of the cross-sectional area is nowfarther from the rod centerline. For example: consider using apiece of wood that measures 1 inch wide by 1/2 inch thick. If youput the guides on the wide side, so that you have a very wide butrelatively thin rod, it would be absolutely wimpy and cast like anoodle. On the other had, if you put the guides on the 1/2 inch wideside and cast it accordingly, you'd have a very stiff rod. The crosssectional area hasn't changed at all, but a large amount of the crosssectional area has moved farther from the centerline. I have the equations for a hex rod at work, not here at home, so Iwon't be able to tell you exactly how much the difference instiffness is, but there is a difference. I'll work out the equationsat lunch on Monday, and send it to you. Claude from piscator@macatawa.org Mon Nov 5 17:46:41 2001 fA5Nke707190 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:46:40 -0600 Subject: Re: Waara node press What are these? How does one contact Mr. Long?Brian Long?Brian from bob@downandacross.com Mon Nov 5 18:04:52 2001 fA604p708016 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:04:51 -0600 Subject: RE: I forgot one Great idea. How about using O rings on the same rod? You might also want tocheck out the excellent article by Bill Lamberson in the latest PlaningForm. He speaks of Montagne's rectangular rods. Very interesting, but I tendto agree with him that it may not be worth all the effort.Bob -----Original Message----- Fuhrman Subject: Re: I forgot one OK all you PMQ builders. Here is your chance to prove Claude's point.Build two PMQ's. They both need to be the same dimensions and from thesameculm and heat treated the same. The dimensions need to be such that thetherods are a little wider than they are thick. Then on one rod put the guideson the wide side and on the other rod put the guides on the thin side.Which rod is stiffer. Hey, some enterprising soul might even put two sets of guides on one rod toprove this point, one set on the wide side and one set on the thin side. Would one of these methods prove the point?Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: I forgot one At 2:02 PM -0500 , 11/3/01, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote about Re: Iforgot one In a message dated 11/3/1 5:41:44 PM, rsgould@cmc.net writes: mathematics" >> Hi Ray - Your argument makes sense, and is one of the explanations I haveconsidered, BUT does the small amount of twist we apply actually concentrate more material into the cross section? I have never noticed any significant difference in the lengths of the sections after twisting. It's not the AREA in the cross section that is increased, but theAMOUNT of the area that becomes farther from the center line axis ofthe rod that causes the increased stiffness. If you could turn therod 30 degrees so that when you cast, an apex of the cross section isdirectly in line with the cast instead of a flat, then you wouldnotice an increase in stiffness - this increase in stiffness isbecause an increased amount of the cross-sectional area is nowfarther from the rod centerline. For example: consider using apiece of wood that measures 1 inch wide by 1/2 inch thick. If youput the guides on the wide side, so that you have a very wide butrelatively thin rod, it would be absolutely wimpy and cast like anoodle. On the other had, if you put the guides on the 1/2 inch wideside and cast it accordingly, you'd have a very stiff rod. The crosssectional area hasn't changed at all, but a large amount of the crosssectional area has moved farther from the centerline. I have the equations for a hex rod at work, not here at home, so Iwon't be able to tell you exactly how much the difference instiffness is, but there is a difference. I'll work out the equationsat lunch on Monday, and send it to you. Claude from dpeaston@wzrd.com Mon Nov 5 18:36:07 2001 fA60a6709057 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:36:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane bob@downandacross.com, jvswan@earthlink.net,Rodmakers Terry, Same to you!!!! -DougAt 06:16 PM 11/5/2001 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,give us break.How is it you can turn a simple question into a long story that always turns into into self promotion?Please do not reply, I will not be opening any of your posts so do not waste your time.Terry Tony Young wrote: Presumably you are a leading light, English trained in you're chosen tradeover a 4 year period which is done that way to ensure tradesmen have acertain standard at which they work and expect from apprentices.So why are you bull shitting about something you know is incorrect?A simple question:HAVE you tried a current plane iron from Stanley or Record or do youwrapyourself up in your security blanket of trade names of the past? The reason I hate your attitude towards newbies and people on the list ingeneral and persist in making my point is you give false ideas with thesole intention of stiring and because you come and go usually with a flushrather than a bang anybody on list long enough to have seen this happenmore than twice simply don't respond and in fact block you.Having done an apprenticeship based on the English method myself I'veseentradesmen hide secretes and use dis information to try to keep their ownlittle tricks of the trade secrete. There's no problem with that, none atall but these guys don't normally say anything at all when asked or don'toffer info in the first place.You on the other hand tend to like wild goose chases that wile and wendaround uselessly intentionally putting off beginners and it's this reason Ipersist when smarter people simply block you. Tony At 08:13 AM 11/5/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Adam,the original posting was from a guy asking a simple question as to whether a Hock blade was worth purchasing. I do not think he was looking to findoutwhatthe brightest stars on rodmakers were capable of doing.Terry Adam Vigil wrote: Terry, Actually knifemakers have for years been taking springs off of vehicles and making tools and forging blades. Geez... you need to get out more!Andactually the sad part about the list are guys who dont even use ahand plane are giving out advice on what blades to use. What a laugh! next thing you know you will be giving lessons on "How to make friends". AdamSubject: Re: Stanley plane How many out there are ready to take the coil spring off a Toyotaand Forge into plane blades?This is rodmakers at its best and the great part is it is all saved in the archives.What a legacy we are leaving behind for future whackos!Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from stpete@netten.net Mon Nov 5 18:44:51 2001 fA60io709576 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:44:51 -0600 forged)) for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:46:56 -0600 Subject: Terry Ackland's "contributions" Folks, I've tried to be more than civil and have been patient beyond mynormal limits. But I must now speak out. I am attempting to ascertainjust what Terry A.'s intent is in his constant negative attitude andreplies to inquiries to the list. He claims to have the only workabletaper beveler, but he's not talking. He has the perfect impregnant formass marketing rods, but again - top secret. If he has accomplishedthese feats, good for him! He will do well in his new fulltime career.He is certainly not expected to reveal trade secrets which willadversely affect his future business. With that said, this list is for SUPPORTING each others asrodmakers. I do not expect him to share his experiences with us if itcosts him. But - I see no reason for him to constantly try to denigratethe efforts of others, confuse the issues at hand, and dissuadehobbyists from inexpensive though admittedly laborious methods otherthan to generally try to lessen the quality and value of the content ofthe list. To Terry, I say, "Contribute something worthwhile to the list orleave it. Your current actions and correspondence are hypocritical andgo against the grain of your very own words. If this list is worthlessand spreads misinformation, why do you attend to it? If you are intenton straightening us out, show us what you've got that proves the rest ofus wrong. If you are in the situation which you claim, i.e. have plentyof time, know all the correct methods, and have the appropriatemachinery, why don't you let US continue to provide our contribution tothe growth in interest in bamboo rods, and YOU can profit from it byselling well made, moderately costed, low maintenance rods to thatinterested public. In the meantime BUGGER OFF!" To Mike, please consider this a plea to remove Mr. Ackland from thelist. I think a perusal of his 'contributions' over the last few weekswill attest to the negative impact he makes on this list. I haveconsidered taking a 'vacation' from the list if he continues in thismanner and I fear that this type of action is his real intent. Rick C. P.S. Terry, don't reply directly to me. I will not read anything youhave to say. You have proven that your conversations are unilateral andI will not be drawn into such wastes of time. from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Nov 5 18:44:54 2001 fA60ir709584 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:44:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Troy,sensible post.A2 has never been the choice for edge tools. from what I can remember itcanonly be hardened to 57-59RC. I feel that good old 0-1 ground stock hardenedtothe max. (not draw back) will be perfect for finishing cane strips. We takelight cuts plane carefully and use an angle on the cutting edge that is muchlarger than stock blades giving much more strength.Thinking back, the plane I used to finish all my rods had a 62RC cutting edge.Could it be that all the posturing about steel is not as important as thehardness and we could use more hardness than could be accepted for generalcarpentry?I would welcome a reply if you could keep just to the subject, without ethnicslurs.Terry Miller, Troy wrote: Terry and Tony -- These classes overlap. If it has carbon in it, it is a carbon steel. Thereare subclasses called low carbon, medium carbon, and high carbon thatdescribe the carbon content. If it has more than 4% Cr and more than .5%Mo, it is generally a stainless. The proper classification (most accurateand descriptive) of A2 is "Air-Hardenable Tool Steel" or "Air QuenchableTool Steel". Out of any metals handbook. The benefit of using A2 toolsteel (in general) is that you can finish machine a part, and then HT it andquench it without it significantly distorting. Most other steels used todayrequire a more rapid quenching sequence, by water or oil, which ends updistorting (i.e. - warping) the part. Therefore you could not finishmachine most steels before heat treating. I have finish-machined parts made from A2 (plane irons, in fact) before HT,and let me tell you, it is nice to do. Milling is so much easier onannealed steel than on hardened steel. That was my main motivation inusingthe A2. I did it before Ron Hock came out with his A2's, but I did not findthem to be tough enough. My hardness was fine at about 58 to 59, buttheydulled very quickly. When looked at under a jewelers lupe, distinct chipswere observable. Not just the normal "rounding" which I would call wear,but actual chipping. I deduced, therefore, that I could not maintaintoughness at high hardness with this metal. Hock has found a way to dothiswith his freezing process, but I am not a big fan of liquid N2.... Thanks goes to Bob Nunley for helping me test these (unacceptable) irons.Bob, do you still have them? How about we anneal them and try anon- "by-the-book" HT and quench routine? I'll pick them up when I come upnext month and try something completely different.... TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 12:44 PM Cc: nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca; bob@downandacross.com;jvswan@earthlink.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane Actually Tony the steelmakers class any steel that contains a chromiumcontent ofmore than 3.99% as a heat resisting or stainless steel. A2 contains 5%chromium soit is not a carbon steel by definition of the industry!TerryTony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent and they'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanleyuse A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on yourpart.A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or highchrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test lookedlike carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site andtheyare nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heattreating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be betterspent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from theperhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny littlestatements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. You know very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oilthough water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here athome and a large association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of themembers is a metallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels andplane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons theseguys are supplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality in general is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being the blacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort of time is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used by Stanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chromein it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on the performance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brandnew 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and wastoo blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6 fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when onerollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a company can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably whenthe bean counter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one muchuse hand tools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t formclay anyhow when it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be really surprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather than harping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make ironsgood enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of yearsback. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he saidit but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record (the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makers induction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so thatdo not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and thatwas all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record planeirons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessivechiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (andan A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference betweenthe old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seemto have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depthadjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay$40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for$29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from stpete@netten.net Mon Nov 5 18:49:56 2001 fA60nt710297 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:49:55 -0600 forged)) Subject: Re: Stanley Plane/Drivel The beauty of this hobby is that you can make rods with a knife, a form, aplane, a vice, some string and some glue. All else is icing on the cake. Wehave been told recently that those of us who are hobbyists are wasting ourtimeand ought to pack it in. I disagree. Some things make the hobby easier butatwhat cost? A little ROI analysis never hurt anyone. Some of us just like toysmore than others. But a rod can be made with very little. Rick C. Jill and Tom Ausfeld wrote: Tony, Great, thanks... Another damn hobby..... It all started with, "Gee, I thinkI'll make a split bamboo fly rod, they are way to expensive to buy". Thenit goes to , forms are awful expensive, I think I'll make my own. Then Ihave to make a binder and an oven. Then ferrules and reels seats areprettysteep, better make my own. Agate guides are getting up there in price,better make my own. May as well make my own guides and tip tops..... Rodsacks - "Hon, can you show me how to use your sewing machine?"(it is veryhard to look manly in front of a sewing machine, even with a beer near-by,even my son walked by with his head held low in shame), Rod tubes, howhard can that be..... NOW plane irons!! when does this madness stop.Newbies beware, you have no idea how bad this gets...... myself, maybe in the long run, really long run. But you can't put a price onthe knowledge gained. tom ----- Original Message -----From: Tony Young Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 3:32 AMSubject: Re: Stanley Plane/Drivel Three excellent books to read before writing off forged tools of eitheryour own or other's work. A great many serious wood workers maketheir owntools as well a knife makers who harden their own blades or have themdonein temp controlled furnaces. Tool Making For Woodworkers by Ray Larsen ISBN 0-9643999-4-6The Complete Bladesmith by Jim Hrisoulas (be the first kid on your blockwith a Demascus plane iron, learn how here [:-)] ) ISBN 0-87364-430-1The Complete Modern Blacksmith by Alexander G. Weygers ISBN 0-89815-896-6 Read any of the above books in conjunction with visiting a forge beforewriting off making your own tools or ridiculing others who do.I'd almost bet anybody who ever visits a working forge and trys it willwant to make some tools of their own. The advantages are you need tounderstand just how a hand tool is designed to work in order to make onewhich helps you use it better right there as well as gaining anunderstanding of tempering and how it relates to sharpening of edgesandhow they hold it. Lastly you can make a hell of a lot of really nice toolsover a few weekends and give the junk away.All you need as a minimum is a forge and ball peen hammer and a coil spring. Even if you don't make any tools see if anybody there is interested inmaking a chisel or plane iron for you and you'll see the difference.Chances are he/she will make it right there and then in front of you.There are plenty of craftsmen making these tools just as there areplentyof people making bamboo rods IMHO they should be supported if possible.Failing that buy a Hock. No matter what you do though any good qualityplane iron you can buy new now will not have the name Stanley on it. Tony At 02:22 PM 11/4/01 -0500, Dkenney94@cs.com wrote: Who Cares? Whats the point? Anybody with half a brain who has ever used,handled, and worked with new & old Stanley plane blades or Hock blades Knows,I repeat KNOWS the new Stanley blades are mostly junk (Fine Toyotaspring blades, many blacksmiths use car springs to make edged tools& agood smith can forge a blade out of springs that would leave even a Hock Blade in the dust.Frankly, when some one tells me they "Know a thing or twoabout metal," be they an Engineer, Machinist etc. they tend to be theworst judge of woodworking edged tools. To much with the technical& not enough technique. Dave /************************************************************************* / AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /************************************************************************* / _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Nov 5 18:52:22 2001 fA60qL710645 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:52:21 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane We tried the cryogenic process at work on our punch and die sections on thehighspeed punch presses. We kept detailed records of the production run beforeregrinds of the tools that had the regular and the cryogenic sections andtherewas no difference. But this was carbide. Miller, Troy wrote: Terry and Tony -- These classes overlap. If it has carbon in it, it is a carbon steel. Thereare subclasses called low carbon, medium carbon, and high carbon thatdescribe the carbon content. If it has more than 4% Cr and more than .5%Mo, it is generally a stainless. The proper classification (most accurateand descriptive) of A2 is "Air-Hardenable Tool Steel" or "Air QuenchableTool Steel". Out of any metals handbook. The benefit of using A2 toolsteel (in general) is that you can finish machine a part, and then HT it andquench it without it significantly distorting. Most other steels used todayrequire a more rapid quenching sequence, by water or oil, which ends updistorting (i.e. - warping) the part. Therefore you could not finishmachine most steels before heat treating. I have finish-machined parts made from A2 (plane irons, in fact) before HT,and let me tell you, it is nice to do. Milling is so much easier onannealed steel than on hardened steel. That was my main motivation inusingthe A2. I did it before Ron Hock came out with his A2's, but I did not findthem to be tough enough. My hardness was fine at about 58 to 59, buttheydulled very quickly. When looked at under a jewelers lupe, distinct chipswere observable. Not just the normal "rounding" which I would call wear,but actual chipping. I deduced, therefore, that I could not maintaintoughness at high hardness with this metal. Hock has found a way to dothiswith his freezing process, but I am not a big fan of liquid N2.... Thanks goes to Bob Nunley for helping me test these (unacceptable) irons.Bob, do you still have them? How about we anneal them and try anon- "by-the-book" HT and quench routine? I'll pick them up when I come upnext month and try something completely different.... TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 12:44 PM Cc: nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca; bob@downandacross.com;jvswan@earthlink.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane Actually Tony the steelmakers class any steel that contains a chromiumcontent ofmore than 3.99% as a heat resisting or stainless steel. A2 contains 5%chromium soit is not a carbon steel by definition of the industry!TerryTony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent and they'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanleyuse A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on yourpart.A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or highchrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test lookedlike carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site andtheyare nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heattreating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be betterspent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from theperhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny littlestatements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. You know very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oilthough water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here athome and a large association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of themembers is a metallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels andplane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons theseguys are supplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality in general is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being the blacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort of time is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used by Stanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chromein it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on the performance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brandnew 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and wastoo blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6 fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when onerollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a company can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably whenthe bean counter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one muchuse hand tools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t formclay anyhow when it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be really surprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather than harping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make ironsgood enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of yearsback. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he saidit but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record (the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makers induction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so thatdo not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and thatwas all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record planeirons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessivechiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (andan A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference betweenthe old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seemto have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depthadjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay$40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for$29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from Dkenney94@cs.com Mon Nov 5 18:53:34 2001 fA60rY710873 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:53:34 -0600 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:53:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's "contributions" Well Said Rick! from dmanders@telusplanet.net Mon Nov 5 19:06:29 2001 fA616S711870 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:06:28 -0600 Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:37:03 -0700 Subject: Re: About scales - building your own Larry, Hot Damn - you're right - I was on the wrong scale. I "thought" that therewas 7000 grs./lb. and couldn't figure out where I went wrong.My thanx for pointing this out. regards, Don At 11:28 AM 11/5/01 -0500, lblan@provide.net wrote: Hmmm... you might use troy pounds to weigh the holy water,but for the rest, I'd go with the avoirdupois system, 7000grains per pound, 1 grain = .00229 ounces. Larry Blan On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 09:01:03 -0700Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys/Gals, Now I didn't invent the idea but it makes sense and itworks.Construct a beam scale using a 1/4" all thread bolt c/w 3nuts on each sideof the center. Drill a hole @ the center of the allthread and attach aloop of stiff wire that will act as a fulcrum/hangingloop. Attach somepans you can make out of 20 gage tin. I used 20 lb. testwire leaders toattach the pans to the beam ends. Calibrate the scale tozero by using the1/4" nuts screwed along the all thread. Lock them intoplace.Weigh one 1/4" nut or whatever size suits you from a boxof 100. Use thenuts on one side vs whatever you want to weigh on theother.Works just fine for glue and other non-exact weights.Having said that, Ijust purchased a RCBS Powder Measure to accurately weightchanges in freewater, molecular water or holy water in cane as it'ssoaked, baked and letjust generally sit around. 1 grain = 0.002083 Oz. or7681.22 grains = 1 lb. catch ya' Don At 08:45 AM 11/2/01 -0600, Grayson Davis wrote: wrote: I'm looking for recommendations on scales used inweighing things such as glue mixtures, components, and finished rods. Russ Gooding recommends a scaleavailable at McMaster-Carr for about $150 plusshipping. Is anyone aware of other options?Particularly something that might be of lower price.I've looked at local office supply stores, and whatthey have is geared toward postal scales and notreally what I'm looking for. Ideally I would like tofind something that is designed to weigh less than 1lb. and in .01 ounce increments. Prefer ounces tograms, but can always use a conversion chart. Thanks Chris McDowellblitzenrods@aol.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com weighing on the cheap (powder) : weigh out one ounce on a postal scale; fold a piece of shim stock nearly in half; use magic marker to put eleven equally-spaced marks on the channel fromed by the fold;sprinkle, tap and otherwise distribute the oz. evenly inside the marks in the channel; scrape or brush off one division-worth (0.1 oz.) onto a clean sheet of paper; put nine divisions-worth back in the bottle; repeat with the 0.1 oz to get .01 oz. -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from farell@ma.ultranet.com Mon Nov 5 19:10:41 2001 fA61Ab712310 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:10:37 -0600 Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's "contributions" His contribution is your reply. Subject: Terry Ackland's "contributions" Folks, I've tried to be more than civil and have been patient beyond mynormal limits. But I must now speak out. I am attempting to =ascertainjust what Terry A.'s intent is in his constant negative attitude andreplies to inquiries to the list. He claims to have the only workabletaper beveler, but he's not talking. He has the perfect impregnant =formass marketing rods, but again - top secret. If he has accomplishedthese feats, good for him! He will do well in his new fulltime =career.He is certainly not expected to reveal trade secrets which willadversely affect his future business. With that said, this list is for SUPPORTING each others asrodmakers. I do not expect him to share his experiences with us if itcosts him. But - I see no reason for him to constantly try to =denigratethe efforts of others, confuse the issues at hand, and dissuadehobbyists from inexpensive though admittedly laborious methods otherthan to generally try to lessen the quality and value of the content =ofthe list. To Terry, I say, "Contribute something worthwhile to the list orleave it. Your current actions and correspondence are hypocritical =andgo against the grain of your very own words. If this list is =worthlessand spreads misinformation, why do you attend to it? If you are =intenton straightening us out, show us what you've got that proves the rest =ofus wrong. If you are in the situation which you claim, i.e. have =plentyof time, know all the correct methods, and have the appropriatemachinery, why don't you let US continue to provide our contribution =tothe growth in interest in bamboo rods, and YOU can profit from it byselling well made, moderately costed, low maintenance rods to thatinterested public. In the meantime BUGGER OFF!" To Mike, please consider this a plea to remove Mr. Ackland from =thelist. I think a perusal of his 'contributions' over the last few =weekswill attest to the negative impact he makes on this list. I haveconsidered taking a 'vacation' from the list if he continues in thismanner and I fear that this type of action is his real intent. Rick C. P.S. Terry, don't reply directly to me. I will not read anything youhave to say. You have proven that your conversations are unilateral =andI will not be drawn into such wastes of time. His contribution is your =reply. ----- Original Message ----- Rick Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001= PM "contributions" = is in his constant negative attitude andreplies to inquiries to = expected to reveal trade secrets which willadversely affect his = SUPPORTING each others asrodmakers. I do not expect him to share = constantly try to denigratethe efforts of others, confuse the = hand, and dissuadehobbyists from inexpensive though admittedly = methods otherthan to generally try to lessen the quality and value = and correspondence are hypocritical andgo against the grain of = the situation which you claim, i.e. have plentyof time, know all = correct methods, and have the appropriatemachinery, why don't you = continue to provide our contribution tothe growth in interest in = rods, and YOU can profit from it byselling well made, moderately = = 'contributions' over the last few weekswill attest to the negative = list if he continues in thismanner and I fear that this type of = his real intent.Rick C.P.S. Terry, don't reply = that your conversations are unilateral andI will not be drawn into = wastes of time. from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Nov 5 19:31:26 2001 fA61VP713710 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:31:25 -0600 05 Nov 2001 17:31:28 PST Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's "contributions" "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" ...AND HE DOESN'T BUILD RODS! hasn't in severalyears...doesn't like it. only purpose is to depictevery one that does build rods and like it as somesort of idiot. timothy --- Rick wrote: Folks, I've tried to be more than civil and have beenpatient beyond mynormal limits. But I must now speak out. I amattempting to ascertainjust what Terry A.'s intent is in his constantnegative attitude andreplies to inquiries to the list. He claims to havethe only workabletaper beveler, but he's not talking. He has theperfect impregnant formass marketing rods, but again - top secret. If hehas accomplishedthese feats, good for him! He will do well in hisnew fulltime career.He is certainly not expected to reveal trade secretswhich willadversely affect his future business. With that said, this list is for SUPPORTING eachothers asrodmakers. I do not expect him to share hisexperiences with us if itcosts him. But - I see no reason for him toconstantly try to denigratethe efforts of others, confuse the issues at hand,and dissuadehobbyists from inexpensive though admittedlylaborious methods otherthan to generally try to lessen the quality andvalue of the content ofthe list. To Terry, I say, "Contribute somethingworthwhile to the list orleave it. Your current actions and correspondenceare hypocritical andgo against the grain of your very own words. Ifthis list is worthlessand spreads misinformation, why do you attend to it?If you are intenton straightening us out, show us what you've gotthat proves the rest ofus wrong. If you are in the situation which youclaim, i.e. have plentyof time, know all the correct methods, and have theappropriatemachinery, why don't you let US continue to provideour contribution tothe growth in interest in bamboo rods, and YOU canprofit from it byselling well made, moderately costed, lowmaintenance rods to thatinterested public. In the meantime BUGGER OFF!" To Mike, please consider this a plea to removeMr. Ackland from thelist. I think a perusal of his 'contributions' overthe last few weekswill attest to the negative impact he makes on thislist. I haveconsidered taking a 'vacation' from the list if hecontinues in thismanner and I fear that this type of action is hisreal intent. Rick C. P.S. Terry, don't reply directly to me. I will notread anything youhave to say. You have proven that yourconversations are unilateral andI will not be drawn into such wastes of time. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Nov 5 19:54:56 2001 fA61st714964 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:54:55 -0600 Subject: Re: I forgot one In a message dated 11/5/1 5:56:10 PM, beadman@mac.com writes: Hi Claude - Yes, I have built identical rods twisted and straight, but not a lot of them. Frankly, once I proved the point to myself, I ran out of ambition for the work involved. I got mixed results in static deflection tests, with some spiral rods seeming to be stiffer, and others seeming to be be the factor, with more heat treatment making for closer results, but I can't really prove that. Dynamically, there is always a difference, with the spiral rod always being a significantly better caster. This shows up if you do an oscillation rate test. One of the reasons I stopped building matched sets is that anyone casting both rods looked at the straight rod as if it had leprosy, when, in fact, it was a perfectly fine fishing rod. I love to cast fly rods, but try not delude myself that casting and fishing are the same thing. from rextutor@about.com Mon Nov 5 20:05:12 2001 fA625C715654 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:05:12 -0600 (NPlex 5.5.029) "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's "contributions" I agree with this. I have skimmed and then deleted way too much on TA (i.e. plane blades) because it has nothing to do with rod building just ego puffing . Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Mon Nov 5 20:23:41 2001 fA62Ne716604 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:23:40 - UAA28966 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:23:48 Subject: Re: I forgot one If a spirial work (makes the rod cast better) by increasingthat effective diameter, couldn't you do the same thing just much to add at each station, if you like trig. Milward's book talks a lot about adjusting tapers to account different.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from ccurrojr@voyager.net Mon Nov 5 20:35:57 2001 fA62Zu717307 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:35:56 -0600 fA62UAm42389 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 21:30:10 -0500 Subject: SRG 2001 Listers It's that time again for visual evidence of the fun & goodwill that canalways be found at the Southern Rodmakers Gathering (not to be confusedwith the fun & goodwill that can MOST of the time be found on thislist). The address is -http://www.curro.net/SRG/index2002.html See you in 2002. cc from atlasc1@earthlink.net Mon Nov 5 20:47:13 2001 fA62lC717998 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:47:13 -0600 ([209.178.135.49] helo=g2t8c9) id 160wGl-0003td-00; Mon, 05 Nov 2001 18:47:20 -0800 Subject: Re: Stanely vs. Hock My Stanley Iron is now used as a scraper. It is great as a scraper for =final dimensions. Adam Vigil Subject: Stanely vs. Hock Hello, Stanely and record plane irons are garbage. Actually worse than that, =a scourge to be erased from humanity. To do my part in this battle, send =me all of your stanley/record plane irons immediately. I will find a = Tom Ausfeld My Stanley Iron is now used as a = great as a scraper for final dimensions. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- and Tom Ausfeld Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001= AMSubject: Stanely vs. Hock Hello, this battle, send me all of your stanley/record plane irons = Tom Ausfeld from harms1@pa.net Mon Nov 5 21:14:58 2001 fA63Ev719062 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 21:14:57 -0600 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:13:22 -0500 Subject: brushing--a long discourse Peter, Here is how I have been finishing my rods for a long, long time. But, no,it did not take a long, long time to learn how. There are no tricks, andthe process does not require a Rembrandt. As with everything else,however,there is a learning curve in applying a finish to a rod by brush. But,unless you're on a tight production schedule, who cares? Your mistakes willcost you nothing, as it is very easy to remove (or to sand out the affectedareas of) a "botched" job and start over. You will catch on quickly, andyou will produce a finish as good or better than any dip tube method. Very likely, you will not get the perfect finish on your first coupleattempts, so why not take some practice licks on an old tip or a mid sectionyou may have lying around? Sand off (or use a stripper) to remove all theoriginal finish, but leave the guides and their wraps intact. Lastlly, by way of introduction, let me assure you that the most difficultpart of the entire finishing process will be to slog your way through theexplanation that follows. Doing the work itself is a cake-walk, once youunderstand what the process consists of. MATERIALS: One good quality artist's brush: round, 1/8" soft , pointed bristles (Ifyou can't get one this size, get a slightly larger one and use a razor bladeto cut back the outer bristles at the ferrule, all around thecircumference.) This brush is used only for first applying six or eightcoats of finish to the various wraps. One good quality artist's brush: flat, 5/16" soft, pointed bristles.(Again, if you must get a wider one, go ahead, and then, up at the ferrule,trim the bristles back from either outer edge.) This brush is used forapplying varnish to all areas of the rod sections. Use a razor blade to cuta little more than 1/8" squarely across the tip. This will stiffen thebristles somewhat and will destroy the original delicacy at the tip of thebrush. The purpose of this trim-job is to retain both the softness to applythe varnish smoothly, while also gaining the necessary stiffness to "pull"the varnish down as you go (to avoid runs and drips). Wet-or-dry sandpaper in #600 and #1200 grits. (Used for sanding betweencoats and removing minute flecks of dust or other imperfections. Steel wool in 4-aught--or finer if you can locate it (Used for everything) Varnish or Poly of your choice. It doesn't matter, so long as it pleasesyou. I like Minwax Poly, "quick-dry," in the high gloss, but do not take asa recommendation. I like the poly because of its lasting flexibility andwhat I think are its protective qualities. I like the quick-dry for all theobvious reasons. I like the high-gloss just because I like the high-gloss.If you don't, that makes no difference. Suit yourself. Turpentine, if you use true varnish: Mineral Spirits if you usepolyurethane. A very small and VERY CLEAN plastic container for the thinned varnish/poly. CONSIDERATIONS: I will assume you have already applied six or eight coats (more, if youneed, or if you like) of thinned finish to all your wraps, and that thesehave been allowed to dry for at least a week to ten days prior to finalsanding to your satisfaction (and/or steel-wooling). You must understand (now that the guides have been wrapped and finished)that as you varnish the whole rod, your attention will be concentrated ONLYupon each little area BETWEEN a set of guides at any one time. Don't evenTHINK about the whole rod. You are interested only in each little 5" 6" or8" segment of the rod--one at a time. Do not worry about airborne dust or setting up a special, protective, dryingcabinet. You do not need these, as you will be lightly sanding outimperfections in each coat of varnish anyway. Dust is simply not an issue. I finish many rods in the open air of my shop, with the windows open, thefan going, my dogs in and out, and dust (no doubt) everywhere--as mycleaning schedule leaves much to be desired. Yet my rods come out nearlyperfectly. I think the reason is because the only dust one really needs toworry about is that which is on the rod to begin with, on one's hands,shirt, in the liquid finish, or in the brush itself. So, in contrast toeverything else, I am VERY fastidious about these factors. I am assuming, lastly, that your rod sections have been lightlysteel-wooled, cleaned with mineral spirits (or turp) and allowed to drythoroughly prior to the actual varnishing steps that follow. Lastly, you want a strong light coming in toward you from one side so that,holding the rod in its reflection, you can see that you are leaving no barespots, and that you have no runs developing. PROCEDURE: Put on a clean, but old tee shirt after you have given it a really goodshaking- out. (Old, because all the lint probably will be gone afterrepeated washings. Shake, just in case it isn't.) Open your varnish/poly (I'll just call it "varnish" from here on) and spoona tablespoon or so into a very small container (but not so small that yourisk tipping it over with your brush). Be certain that the container isclean and COMPLETELY DUSTFREE. With a medicine dropper, add a touch ofyourthinner to get a somewhat finer consistency. Swirl around well. (Ratio isnot particularly critical.) The thinner will help you to avoid runs anddrips, and it will also minimize the "wet-time" exposure to airborn dust. Dip your flat brush right down into the gallon can of thinner and swisharound vigorously to remove dust particles. Dry the brush by fanning thebristles somewhat as you blow on them (to clear any remaining particles). Lastly, wash your hands and forearms immediately before picking up the rodsection. After usual drying, blow hard onto your fingertips, flicking themagainst one another as you blow. Now, take the rod section in both hands and both wipe and blow off any dust.Begin at the ferrule end of the tip (or the cork end of the butt) and workyour way toward the finer end. Blow especially sharps jets into and aroundeach of the guide feet. Do not try to clean dust from your rod section withmineral spirits or turp. You will only introduce still more dust in theprocess. When you reach the end of the tip, hold the section in your left hand justbelow the first guide at perhaps a 40 degree angle or so. Then take yourflat brush and dip it into the varnish to load the brush. Gently (tominimize bubbles) wipe off most of the varnish along the edge of thecontainer, since we have only a very small area to deal with up here at thetip-top. As you apply the varnish, you will always be making long, and soft strokeswith the thinned varnish--beginning at a point up at your right, and pullingdownward toward your left hand. Do not press the brush. It simply is notnecessary in laying down the coat of varnish, as the bristles are soft andthe varnish, thin. Rotate the rod section somewhat with your left hand just before you begineach of the long strokes--pulling them down from the tip-top just to theedge of the first wrap. On the very thin, upper parts of a tip section, youcannot try to cover only one flat at a time. Instead, you will probably becoveing two or more flats, so that perhaos only three or fours strokes willdo the job. You will soon see how nicely and smoothly the varnish "wetsout" on the cane. Also, as the varnish is thin, and your brush has beentrimmed at its tip, you will be pulling (without even trying) all "excess"varnish downward to your left hand. When you have finished this first little area, you now attend only to theguide and its two wraps near your left hand. Wet the brush again, but thistime gently press it along the edge of the container to remove almost allthe varnish. (You already had plenty of varnish still in your brush frombefore, so what you want now is just a "newly-wetted" brush.) Now, use only one of the corners of the brush and go quickly and softlyaround the first wrap. Again with a corner, gently press a few bristlesunder each of the guide feet to wet-out that flat. Now, pull the varnishdown toward your left hand again, but only far enough to cover the other,remaining guide wrap. (Be sure to dab and "pull" a little at the guide feetas you do this to be sure that you have "wicked away" any varnish that mightlater form a drip.) So, that's the deal. Now, move your left hand down below the next guide, blowing sharply onceagain on those finger tips as you do. With the finger tips on your righthand, wipe off this next area between the guides, and give sharp, littlepuffs under the feet. Dip your brush once again, gently skim off theexcess, and begin the long, soft downward strokes--starting your brush atthe base of the wrap you finished just a moment ago, and pulling the coat from there all the way down to near the edge of the wrap near your lefthand. As you move, section by section, down the rod toward the ferrule end, youwill need only just slightly more varnish in your brush with each area. Theguide spacing increases as does the diameter of the cane blank. This, too,you will quickly learn to control. When you near the male ferrule, you can only hold the rod with yourleft-hand finger tips. Be certain that you do not have so much varnish lefton your brush that you end up with a run. Rotate the rod section as bestyou can with your left hand, holding the brush tip against the ferrule wrap.Allow the end of the brush now to "wick away" any excess varnish on theferrule wrap. Hold the entire rod section horizontally by the ferrule end, and rotate therod a quarter-turn or so at a time--just often enough to ensure that, as thevarnish sets up, no runs or drips can form. With the "quick-dry" poly thatI use, this takes maybe five minutes. This is the only part of the entirevarnishing process that I consider to be difficult (and that, only becauseit's BORING). Upon beginning the butt section, the guide spacing and the diameter willhave increased quite a bit, so you will now need to load your brush rathermore frequently. Begin with the ferrule wrap, and make a single, longstroke downward. You want to estimate about how far down to take yourstroke, so that you do not run out of varnish before you have rotated allthe way around the circumference of the area you're working on. You can doa nicer job if each brush-load of varnish takes you all the way around (asopposed to having to re-load the brush and introduce a fresh strokealongside one that has already become rather too thin.) This, too, is partof the learning curve, and does not take long to figure out. As you work down the butt section, you no longer have the luxury" offocusing only on the space between a set of guides, but instead you nowmustlearn to focus upon an area "defined" by the amount of varnish you happen tohave loaded in your brush. Also, as you work down the butt section, youwill be covering only one flat per stroke, so "save" enough varnish in yourbrush to make all six strokes around the circumference of that area. Each time you re-load your brush, you will start right in at the still-wetends of the area you just covered, pulling long strokes downward again. The thinned varnish you have prepared will level out well enough to allow you todo this without fear of creating visable brush-strokes (and also withoutfear of introducing runs). Varnish that is too thick will leave a surfacethat does not level out well, whereas varnish that is too thin wants to runbadly, and will simply need an additional coat. In all of this, what you are trying to produce is a nice, fluid coating onthe surface. Do not brush out to such a thin layer that you can actuallysee the minute "topography" of the cane showing through, because if you do,you will not be able to distinguish this effect from those areas where youmay actually have skipped a spot. Another danger of brushing out too thinlyis that when you re-load your brush to start in again, you may find that youare starting in on an area that is no longer really wet. The newly appliedstrokes will not level-out properly. (Your reflected source of light willhelp immensely in this.) At the other extreme, you also do not want to lay on so much varnish thatyou risk runs or drips. If you detect your varnish is beginning to "poolup" or run, you probably have loaded the brush too much for the small areayou are trying to cover. After perhaps a couple blunders, you will soonlearn how much varnish is needed on your brush for a given area (whether onthe cane or just around one of the guides). In between these two ends of the spectrum, you will find the perfectcoating. It does not take many "goof-ups" before you learn exactly how tocontrol what you are doing. The learning-curve is pretty steep. If you detect, after applying an entire coat, that there are some areasshowing skipped spots ("windows"), you have only to allow the rod to dry fora day or so. Then, lightly sand or steel wool the entire area between thisset of guides, and apply another, "corrective coat" just there. As you finish the butt section, again hold it horizontally for about fiveminutes while rotating it slowly. THE SECOND (AND/OR FINAL) COAT: Allow the first coat to dry for perhaps two or three days and then sand outwhatever little areas do not please you with the #600 grit paper. Cut alittle piece of sandpaper that measures only about 1 1/2" square, and takecare as you sand that you apply pressure with only one finger, and that youkeep the paper dead flat. Sand very lightly, as you are not dealing withmaterial that offers much resistance. Then use the steel-wool very lightlyover the entire rod section to prepare a good mechanical bond for the nextcoat. (This is more important for poly than for true varnish.) Take carewhen using the steel wool not to "burn" the varnish off the corners. Apply the second coat exactly as you did the first, only you'll be muchbetter at it this time. Also, you will find that varnish flows more"gracefully" over a first coat that it did over the bare cane. Allow this second coat to dry for at least a week to ten days. If there areimperfections that seem to require another coat, you will see these withinthe second day when you can safely inspect your work. Should there beareasin need of a third coat, lightly sand out both the imperfections themselvesAS WELL AS the other flats between the set of guides in question. Refinishthis entire area, starting and ending exactly at the edge of the wraps. Youwill not be able to detect, later, which areas needed the extra coat. If, after initial inspection, there are no areas in need of this sort ofadditional work, then allow the ten days to pass. At the end of this periodyou will be sanding out only whatever little dust particles (or minuteripples) there may be, and I'll bet there will be damn few. Use reflectedlight to examine. This time, sand with the #1200 grit paper (or finer), asyou are now preparing for the polishing stages. Work only on the smallestarea you need to, and do not disturb the rest. Polishing has been covered elsewhere, so I will not get into that. Thispost has already grown way too long. cheers, Bill from stpete@netten.net Mon Nov 5 21:22:18 2001 fA63MI719707 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 21:22:18 -0600 forged)) Subject: Re: SRG 2001 Charlie, An excellent job as usual. Much appreciated. I think I can even let myspouse see this batch! Rick C Charlie Curro wrote: Listers It's that time again for visual evidence of the fun & goodwill that canalways be found at the Southern Rodmakers Gathering (not to be confusedwith the fun & goodwill that can MOST of the time be found on thislist). The address is -http://www.curro.net/SRG/index2002.html See you in 2002. cc from jojo@ipa.net Mon Nov 5 21:29:00 2001 fA63Sx720201 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 21:28:59 -0600 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:29:06 -0500 Subject: Re: brushing--a long discourse Bill, Great information. Thanks for posting it. M-D Peter, Here is how I have been finishing my rods for a long, long time. But, no,it did not take a long, long time to learn how. HUGE SNIP from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Nov 5 21:50:15 2001 fA63oD721385 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 21:50:14 -0600 Subject: RE: Stanley plane Thankyou Troy. Personally, not being a metallurgist I'm not as concerned about if it's strictly a SS or carbon steel as I am in the results results.So, the question now is, is the chipping you've observed due to insufficient hardness, too hard or the chrome chipping or a combination?Well done in any event because although many may say so what? there are others who have a keen interest in this. Tony At 02:22 PM 11/5/01 -0600, Miller, Troy wrote: Terry and Tony -- These classes overlap. If it has carbon in it, it is a carbon steel. Thereare subclasses called low carbon, medium carbon, and high carbon thatdescribe the carbon content. If it has more than 4% Cr and more than .5%Mo, it is generally a stainless. The proper classification (most accurateand descriptive) of A2 is "Air-Hardenable Tool Steel" or "Air QuenchableTool Steel". Out of any metals handbook. The benefit of using A2 toolsteel (in general) is that you can finish machine a part, and then HT it andquench it without it significantly distorting. Most other steels used todayrequire a more rapid quenching sequence, by water or oil, which ends updistorting (i.e. - warping) the part. Therefore you could not finishmachine most steels before heat treating. I have finish-machined parts made from A2 (plane irons, in fact) before HT,and let me tell you, it is nice to do. Milling is so much easier onannealed steel than on hardened steel. That was my main motivation inusingthe A2. I did it before Ron Hock came out with his A2's, but I did not findthem to be tough enough. My hardness was fine at about 58 to 59, buttheydulled very quickly. When looked at under a jewelers lupe, distinct chipswere observable. Not just the normal "rounding" which I would call wear,but actual chipping. I deduced, therefore, that I could not maintaintoughness at high hardness with this metal. Hock has found a way to dothiswith his freezing process, but I am not a big fan of liquid N2.... Thanks goes to Bob Nunley for helping me test these (unacceptable) irons.Bob, do you still have them? How about we anneal them and try anon- "by-the-book" HT and quench routine? I'll pick them up when I come upnext month and try something completely different.... TAM /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Nov 5 21:55:27 2001 fA63tP721924 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 21:55:25 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane bob@downandacross.com, jvswan@earthlink.net,Rodmakers Got a bit hot for you Terry? Have you tried a new plane iron???? Packing up and leaving the list for a while again are we??? Tony At 06:16 PM 11/5/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Tony,give us break.How is it you can turn a simple question into a long story that always turns intointo self promotion?Please do not reply, I will not be opening any of your posts so do not waste yourtime.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Nov 5 22:01:52 2001 fA641p722523 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:01:51 -0600 (authenticated) Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:01:32 -0800 Subject: Re: Waara node press --------------B397336E41A8C1A471EA18AE Brian, The Waara node press is an ingenious littledevice created by Bill Waara, Sr. John Long did ademo on the little press at the SRG. Seeing hislittle demo, I was skeptical. But John sent oneof the presses home with me. I used it quite abit over the weekend, straightening and flatteningthe nodes on 3 rods' worth of strips. In almostno time flat, I could see that the little presswas going to save me some time, and lots and lotsof headaches. Basically the press is a toggle press cylinderbolted to an "L" shaped piece of metal. Beyondthe press is a cut-out one braces the caneagainst. Heat the cane, and place any kinks inthe cut-out. Press with the cylinder for a fewseconds, and voila! --- straight cane. Harry PS -- I cc'd John on this post. Brian Creek wrote: What are these? How does one contact Mr.Long?Brian -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------B397336E41A8C1A471EA18AE Brian, the weekend, straightening and flattening the nodes on 3 rods' worth of was going to save me some time, and lots and lots of headaches. straight cane. PS -- I cc'd John on this post.Brian Creek wrote: What -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------B397336E41A8C1A471EA18AE-- from caneman@clnk.com Mon Nov 5 22:36:21 2001 fA64aL723893 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:36:21 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: SRG 2001 Charlie,As always, great work on the SRG page. Thanks for all the hard work,not only on the page, but the work you and the rest of the "Committee" putin to make 2001 another great year to remember. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: SRG 2001 Listers It's that time again for visual evidence of the fun & goodwill that canalways be found at the Southern Rodmakers Gathering (not to be confusedwith the fun & goodwill that can MOST of the time be found on thislist). The address is -http://www.curro.net/SRG/index2002.html See you in 2002. cc from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Nov 5 22:37:50 2001 fA64bn724088 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:37:49 -0600 (authenticated) Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:37:39 -0800 Subject: Re: SRG 2001 Uncle Chuckie, I think you've done even better work this year than in years past, ifthat's possible. Jim's pictures were a nice addition as well. Can't waittill Dennis's stuff is up. Only one regret... looking at your picturesreminds me how much I didn't have a chance to see and do. Oh well, as yousay, there's always next year. Muchas graciasDa Rev Charlie Curro wrote: Listers It's that time again for visual evidence of the fun & goodwill that canalways be found at the Southern Rodmakers Gathering (not to be confusedwith the fun & goodwill that can MOST of the time be found on thislist). The address is -http://www.curro.net/SRG/index2002.html See you in 2002. cc -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Nov 6 05:31:01 2001 fA6BUx700542 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:30:59 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane A2 will harden from 62 to 57 provided you can HT without problems so it's still a good candidate you Englishman you.I wonder Terry, is it that the plane iron you and Noah used WAS indeed 62 and POSSIBLY a different steel to what you'd buy now?Suggest you look back on what you've been saying all this time. Tony At 07:46 PM 11/5/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Troy,sensible post.A2 has never been the choice for edge tools. from what I can remember itcanonly be hardened to 57-59RC. I feel that good old 0-1 ground stockhardened tothe max. (not draw back) will be perfect for finishing cane strips. We takelight cuts plane carefully and use an angle on the cutting edge that is muchlarger than stock blades giving much more strength.Thinking back, the plane I used to finish all my rods had a 62RC cutting edge.Could it be that all the posturing about steel is not as important as thehardness and we could use more hardness than could be accepted forgeneralcarpentry?I would welcome a reply if you could keep just to the subject, without ethnicslurs.Terry Miller, Troy wrote: Terry and Tony -- These classes overlap. If it has carbon in it, it is a carbon steel. There are subclasses called low carbon, medium carbon, and high carbon thatdescribe the carbon content. If it has more than 4% Cr and more than.5%Mo, it is generally a stainless. The proper classification (most accurateand descriptive) of A2 is "Air-Hardenable Tool Steel" or "Air QuenchableTool Steel". Out of any metals handbook. The benefit of using A2 toolsteel (in general) is that you can finish machine a part, and then HT it and quench it without it significantly distorting. Most other steels used today require a more rapid quenching sequence, by water or oil, which ends updistorting (i.e. - warping) the part. Therefore you could not finishmachine most steels before heat treating. I have finish-machined parts made from A2 (plane irons, in fact) beforeHT,and let me tell you, it is nice to do. Milling is so much easier onannealed steel than on hardened steel. That was my main motivation in using the A2. I did it before Ron Hock came out with his A2's, but I did not find them to be tough enough. My hardness was fine at about 58 to 59, buttheydulled very quickly. When looked at under a jewelers lupe, distinct chipswere observable. Not just the normal "rounding" which I would call wear,but actual chipping. I deduced, therefore, that I could not maintaintoughness at high hardness with this metal. Hock has found a way to do this with his freezing process, but I am not a big fan of liquid N2.... Thanks goes to Bob Nunley for helping me test these (unacceptable)irons.Bob, do you still have them? How about we anneal them and try anon-"by-the-book" HT and quench routine? I'll pick them up when I comeupnext month and try something completely different.... TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 12:44 PM Cc: nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca; bob@downandacross.com;jvswan@earthlink.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane Actually Tony the steelmakers class any steel that contains a chromiumcontent ofmore than 3.99% as a heat resisting or stainless steel. A2 contains 5%chromium soit is not a carbon steel by definition of the industry!TerryTony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent and they'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever sayingStanleyuse A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on yourpart.A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or highchrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark testlookedlike carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site andtheyare nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabonsteel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heat treating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2and 60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be betterspent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from theperhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd bepretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. You know very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though thatis incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oilthough water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanlydon't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly andthey DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance.It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here athome and a large association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members is a metallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to astandard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the stdplane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys are supplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality in general is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being the blacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for thesame sort of time is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used by Stanley but I do know he has told me the high amount ofchrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it basedon the performance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brandnew 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and wastoo blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6 fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rolls overboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a company can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably whenthe bean counter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much use hand tools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t formclay anyhow when it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be really surprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent toolsrather than harping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one.The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when hesaid it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanlyand Record (the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade andA-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makers induction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that do not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and thatwas all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record planeirons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record ironsaffect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be nodifference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Of Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard manyon the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference betweenthe old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They bothseem to have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for$29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Nov 6 05:36:56 2001 fA6Bas700844 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:36:54 -0600 Subject: Ackland Cronicles Stanley plane chapter MMMCCXXXXIIX Just looked at this again before jettisoning it and it struck me that you see being called English an ethnic slur. Is that right? I would welcome a reply if you could keep just to the subject, without ethnicslurs.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from utzerath@execpc.com Tue Nov 6 05:56:21 2001 fA6BuK701310 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:56:21 -0600 fA6BuT075807; fA6BuQW64913; Subject: Re: I forgot one Tom, Is it not possible that during the twisting process (and I assume you rotatethe one flat per guide by clamping during glue-up) you are pre-loading thepower fibers ala pre-stressed concrete? The resulting increase in moduluswould vary depending on the force you needed to apply.This may also account for the damping effect you observed. I am not sure whether heat treating time affects the modulus. Milwardseemed skeptical. I did a few beam-bending measurements and found nomeasurable difference between the pre-treated and a moderately treatedsamples (except for stress creep and shrinkage). Jim U Hi Claude - Yes, I have built identical rods twisted and straight, but not a lot of them. Frankly, once I proved the point to myself, I ran out ofambition for the work involved. I got mixed results in static deflectiontests, with some spiral rods seeming to be stiffer, and others seeming to be may be the factor, with more heat treatment making for closer results, but Ican't really prove that. Dynamically, there is always a difference, with the spiral rod always being a significantly better caster. This shows up if you do an oscillation rate test. One of the reasons I stopped building matchedsets is that anyone casting both rods looked at the straight rod as if it had leprosy, when, in fact, it was a perfectly fine fishing rod. I love to cast fly rods, but try not delude myself that casting and fishing are the samething. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Nov 6 06:03:52 2001 fA6C3p701772 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:03:51 -0600 Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's "contributions" I don't think Terry should be kicked off list but he should stop this stupidity of sniping then twisting responses to begin another snipe especially at newbies.This latest foray into the plane irons is a typical example. I think I can detect a face saving advance to the rear in Terry's last message that come to think of it the iron he's had all these years "may" be 62 Rc, I think it may too.There are lots of other examples.All TA is doing is the Internet listserv version what certain tradesmen love to do to 1st year apprentices. A 1st year apprentice does little more than sweep the floor and fetch and return tools. The indenture runs 4 years and if you don't like the treatment you get from tradesmen and leading hands you basically walk away from the trade.The pay is bad for the first year or two but the security is great so they get the run around in a bad way.The real jerks would send a kid off to fetch a left hand screw driver or sky hook or something else. The kid will look for one of these and when he returns without it (of course) he'll get a bollucking for it and told to look harder. This can go on for days.In the real world you only see a 1st year kid or two a year but on the list serv TA has an almost unlimited number and he knows that most of the old hands on the list can't be bothered responding to the same old BS.Anyhow Terry, if you paint a target on your backside, hang a sign KICK ME on your shirt and bend over you should expect a kick up the arse occasionally. The main thing is remember to relax, it's not rocket science and all we're doing is makin fishin poles. Tony At 06:43 PM 11/5/01 -0600, Rick wrote: Folks, I've tried to be more than civil and have been patient beyond mynormal limits. But I must now speak out. I am attempting to ascertainjust what Terry A.'s intent is in his constant negative attitude andreplies to inquiries to the list. He claims to have the only workabletaper beveler, but he's not talking. He has the perfect impregnant formass marketing rods, but again - top secret. If he has accomplishedthese feats, good for him! He will do well in his new fulltime career.He is certainly not expected to reveal trade secrets which willadversely affect his future business. With that said, this list is for SUPPORTING each others asrodmakers. I do not expect him to share his experiences with us if itcosts him. But - I see no reason for him to constantly try to denigratethe efforts of others, confuse the issues at hand, and dissuadehobbyists from inexpensive though admittedly laborious methods otherthan to generally try to lessen the quality and value of the content ofthe list. To Terry, I say, "Contribute something worthwhile to the list orleave it. Your current actions and correspondence are hypocritical andgo against the grain of your very own words. If this list is worthlessand spreads misinformation, why do you attend to it? If you are intenton straightening us out, show us what you've got that proves the rest ofus wrong. If you are in the situation which you claim, i.e. have plentyof time, know all the correct methods, and have the appropriatemachinery, why don't you let US continue to provide our contribution tothe growth in interest in bamboo rods, and YOU can profit from it byselling well made, moderately costed, low maintenance rods to thatinterested public. In the meantime BUGGER OFF!" To Mike, please consider this a plea to remove Mr. Ackland from thelist. I think a perusal of his 'contributions' over the last few weekswill attest to the negative impact he makes on this list. I haveconsidered taking a 'vacation' from the list if he continues in thismanner and I fear that this type of action is his real intent. Rick C. P.S. Terry, don't reply directly to me. I will not read anything youhave to say. You have proven that your conversations are unilateral andI will not be drawn into such wastes of time. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Nov 6 06:07:15 2001 fA6C7E702061 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:07:14 -0600 Subject: Re: I forgot one Do you suppose it's more energy (power fibers) in the same length? Like, if you made the rod stiffer by making it thicker but instead, twisting a thinner section so it takes up a shorter space? Tony At 05:59 AM 11/6/01 -0600, Jim Utzerath wrote: Tom, Is it not possible that during the twisting process (and I assume you rotatethe one flat per guide by clamping during glue-up) you are pre-loading thepower fibers ala pre-stressed concrete? The resulting increase in moduluswould vary depending on the force you needed to apply.This may also account for the damping effect you observed. I am not sure whether heat treating time affects the modulus. Milwardseemed skeptical. I did a few beam-bending measurements and found nomeasurable difference between the pre-treated and a moderately treatedsamples (except for stress creep and shrinkage). Jim U Hi Claude - Yes, I have built identical rods twisted and straight, but not a lot of them. Frankly, once I proved the point to myself, I ran out ofambition for the work involved. I got mixed results in static deflectiontests, with some spiral rods seeming to be stiffer, and others seemingto be may be the factor, with more heat treatment making for closer results, but Ican't really prove that. Dynamically, there is always a difference, with the spiral rod always being a significantly better caster. This shows up if you do an oscillation rate test. One of the reasons I stopped building matchedsets is that anyone casting both rods looked at the straight rod as if it had leprosy, when, in fact, it was a perfectly fine fishing rod. I love to cast fly rods, but try not delude myself that casting and fishing are the samething. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Tue Nov 6 06:40:04 2001 fA6Ce3702591 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:40:03 -0600 ;Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:40:02 +0000 Subject: Re: SRG 2001 Charlie, Like the gathering, your page and photos keep getting better. Thanks forthe great work. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Charlie Curro wrote: Listers It's that time again for visual evidence ..... from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Nov 6 06:56:30 2001 fA6CuT703038 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:56:29 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:52:42 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods John Long Subject: Re: Waara node press --------------D54EB56812FBE023E213273D Harry,anyone have any pictures of this, sounds interesting. If I read thisrightit sounds sort of like a lever/cam vise that Lee valley is selling, I had thoughtofbuying one but if memory serves me right it was $149 or 169??Shawn Harry Boyd wrote: Brian, The Waara node press is an ingenious little device created by Bill Waara,Sr.John Long did a demo on the little press at the SRG. Seeing his little demo,I wasskeptical. But John sent one of the presses home with me. I used it quitea bitover the weekend, straightening and flattening the nodes on 3 rods' worthofstrips. In almost no time flat, I could see that the little press was going tosave me some time, and lots and lots of headaches. Basically the press is a toggle press cylinder bolted to an "L" shaped pieceofmetal. Beyond the press is a cut-out one braces the cane against. Heatthe cane,and place any kinks in the cut-out. Press with the cylinder for a fewseconds, andvoila! --- straight cane. Harry PS -- I cc'd John on this post. Brian Creek wrote: What are these? How does one contact Mr. Long?Brian -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------D54EB56812FBE023E213273D Harry, haveany pictures of this, sounds interesting. If I read this right it soundssort of like a lever/cam vise that Lee valley is selling, I had thoughtof buying one but if memory serves me right it was $149 or 169?? ShawnHarry Boyd wrote:Brian, the weekend, straightening and flattening the nodes on 3 rods' worth of was going to save me some time, and lots and lots of headaches. straight cane. PS -- I cc'd John on this post.Brian Creek wrote: What Long?Brian-- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------D54EB56812FBE023E213273D-- from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 07:02:38 2001 fA6D2b703389 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:02:38 - Tue, 06 Nov 2001 05:02:42 PST Subject: Re: Hollowbuilt Are hollowbuilt rods slower or faster than their solidcousins? --- Frank Stetzer wrote: If a spirial work (makes the rod cast better) byincreasingthat effective diameter, couldn't you do the samething just out how much to add at each station, if you like trig. Milward's book talks a lot about adjusting tapers toaccount is anydifferent. ...................................................................... Frank Stetzer "...a cheerfulcomrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than awaterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman'sLuck", 1899. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Nov 6 07:14:00 2001 fA6DDx703782 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:13:59 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:10:21 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's "contributions" I'm sure I'll hear about this, but.... I must say although Terry's mannerismscanbe annoying at times, he is very knowledgeable in various things.He has been at this awhile and brings some good points to the list, usuallywhentopics have degraded into discussing fungi types he will kick up a fuss andstart acontroversial rod making thread.He may not seem to add anything but if youthinkabout it he has spurred on some interesting conversations and some BIGflame warstoo.I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but everyone is entitledtotheir opinion, Terry included.In my opinion, if you don't like what he is saying just ignore or delete it,there are far worse offenders on this list than Terry and his pot stirringways.BTW, you really shouldn't judge him by his rantings on the list, talk to themanone on one and you may find someone completely different. He was veryhelpful backwhen I was first starting out, there were very few Canadian builders and hewas theclosest builder to my area, it was nice to be able to talk to him (through email). Iknow of a couple of other Canadians here on the list who would agree, andseveralothers he has offered his help to.Just my opinion,ShawnRick wrote: Folks, I've tried to be more than civil and have been patient beyond mynormal limits. But I must now speak out. I am attempting to ascertainjust what Terry A.'s intent is in his constant negative attitude andreplies to inquiries to the list. He claims to have the only workabletaper beveler, but he's not talking. He has the perfect impregnant formass marketing rods, but again - top secret. If he has accomplishedthese feats, good for him! He will do well in his new fulltime career.He is certainly not expected to reveal trade secrets which willadversely affect his future business. With that said, this list is for SUPPORTING each others asrodmakers. I do not expect him to share his experiences with us if itcosts him. But - I see no reason for him to constantly try to denigratethe efforts of others, confuse the issues at hand, and dissuadehobbyists from inexpensive though admittedly laborious methods otherthan to generally try to lessen the quality and value of the content ofthe list. To Terry, I say, "Contribute something worthwhile to the list orleave it. Your current actions and correspondence are hypocritical andgo against the grain of your very own words. If this list is worthlessand spreads misinformation, why do you attend to it? If you are intenton straightening us out, show us what you've got that proves the rest ofus wrong. If you are in the situation which you claim, i.e. have plentyof time, know all the correct methods, and have the appropriatemachinery, why don't you let US continue to provide our contribution tothe growth in interest in bamboo rods, and YOU can profit from it byselling well made, moderately costed, low maintenance rods to thatinterested public. In the meantime BUGGER OFF!" To Mike, please consider this a plea to remove Mr. Ackland from thelist. I think a perusal of his 'contributions' over the last few weekswill attest to the negative impact he makes on this list. I haveconsidered taking a 'vacation' from the list if he continues in this manner and I fear that this type of action is his real intent. Rick C. P.S. Terry, don't reply directly to me. I will not read anything youhave to say. You have proven that your conversations are unilateral andI will not be drawn into such wastes of time. from jojo@ipa.net Tue Nov 6 07:49:02 2001 fA6Dn1704994 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:49:01 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:49:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Waara node press Same principle. It's a toggle clamp -- much less expensive, and you =could get the whole thing from John for less money than you'd spend =messing with the thing. M-D anyone have any pictures of this, sounds interesting. If I =read this right it sounds sort of like a lever/cam vise that Lee valley =is selling, I had thought of buying one but if memory serves me right it = Same principle. It's a = thing. M-D Shawn Pineo have = pictures of this, sounds interesting. If I read this right it sounds = like a lever/cam vise that Lee valley is selling, I had thought of = = Shawn from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Nov 6 07:56:24 2001 fA6DuN705448 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:56:24 -0600 (authenticated) Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:56:00 -0800 John Long Subject: Re: Waara node press --------------0E8B0B7111933034E4FDC846 Shawn, I don't have any pictures, but John might.Also, I don't know what John sells them forcurrently, but at the SRG it seems like they wereonly $45. Seems like he sold about 25 of them.You MIGHT build one for less yourself, but theseare a good deal at that price. Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: Harry,anyone have any pictures of this,sounds interesting. If I read this right itsounds sort of like a lever/cam vise that Leevalley is selling, I had thought of buying onebut if memory serves me right it was $149 or169??Shawn Harry Boyd wrote: Brian, The Waara node press is an ingeniouslittle device created by Bill Waara, Sr. JohnLong did a demo on the little press at theSRG. Seeing his little demo, I wasskeptical. But John sent one of the presseshome with me. I used it quite a bit over theweekend, straightening and flattening thenodes on 3 rods' worth of strips. In almostno time flat, I could see that the littlepress was going to save me some time, and lotsand lots of headaches. Basically the press is a toggle presscylinder bolted to an "L" shaped piece ofmetal. Beyond the press is a cut-out onebraces the cane against. Heat the cane, andplace any kinks in the cut-out. Press withthe cylinder for a few seconds, and voila! ---straight cane. Harry PS -- I cc'd John on this post. Brian Creek wrote: What are these? How does one contact Mr.Long?Brian -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------0E8B0B7111933034E4FDC846 Shawn, Also, I don't know what John sells them for currently, but at the SRG it You MIGHT build one for less yourself, but these are a good deal at thatprice. Shawn Pineo wrote:Harry, haveany pictures of this, sounds interesting. If I read this right it soundssort of like a lever/cam vise that Lee valley is selling, I had thoughtof buying one but if memory serves me right it was $149 or 169?? ShawnHarry Boyd wrote:Brian, the weekend, straightening and flattening the nodes on 3 rods' worth of was going to save me some time, and lots and lots of headaches. straight cane. PS -- I cc'd John on this post.Brian Creek wrote: What Long?Brian-- -- Bamboo Rods -- -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------0E8B0B7111933034E4FDC846-- from ttalsma@macatawa.org Tue Nov 6 07:57:40 2001 fA6Dvd705683 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:57:39 -0600 id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:51:36 -0500 id V8NVM261; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:51:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Waara node press Brian, I've added John Long's contact information to the source directory onthe tips site. His listing is under Sources..Tools..Node Presses Ithink he said that the price was $50 for the press. I've made some other changes to the site as well. Enjoy! Brian Creek wrote: What are these? How does one contact Mr. Long?Brian -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from LambersonW@missouri.edu Tue Nov 6 08:14:51 2001 Received: from fA6EEo706607 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:14:59 -0600 , beadman@mac.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Cc:TSmithwick@aol.com, rsgould@cmc.net Subject: RE: I forgot one Date: Tue, 6 LambersonW@missouri.edu Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ihave tried guides on both sides of the rectangular quad described in themost recent Planing Form. The rod has a 5:4 ratio of height to width in thecross section. The rod is much stiffer with the guides on the narrow side. Idon't remember the original question and that wasn't a PMQ so this may notanswer it. For that rod, guides mounted on the narrow side tended to causethe rod to twist when cast, sloughing the bend to the other plane. BillLamberson ----- Original Message----- From: Dick & Kathy Fuhrman beadman@mac.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Cc: TSmithwick@aol.com;rsgould@cmc.net Subject: Re: I forgot one OK all you PMQ builders. Here isyour chance to prove Claude's point. Build two PMQ's. They both need to bethe same dimensions and from the same culm and heat treated the same.The dimensions need to be such that the the rods are a little wider than theyare thick. Then on one rod put the guides on the wide side and on the otherrod put the guides on the thin side. Which rod is stiffer. Hey, someenterprising soul might even put two sets of guides on one rod to prove thispoint, one set on the wide side and one set on the thin side. Would one ofthese methods prove the point? Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- Cc: ;Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 11:12 PM Subject:Re: I forgot one At 2:02 PM -0500 , 11/3/01, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote about Re: Iforgot one In a message dated 11/3/1 5:41:44 PM, rsgould@cmc.net writes: mathematics" >> Hi Ray - Your argument makes sense, and is one of the explanations I haveconsidered, BUT does the small amount of twist we apply actually concentrate more material into the cross section? I have never noticed any significant difference in the lengths of the sections after twisting. It's not the AREA in the cross section that is increased, but theAMOUNT of the area that becomes farther from the center line axis ofthe rod that causes the increased stiffness. If you could turn therod 30 degrees so that when you cast, an apex of the cross section isdirectly in line with the cast instead of a flat, then you wouldnotice an increase in stiffness - this increase in stiffness isbecause an increased amount of the cross-sectional area is nowfarther from the rod centerline. For example: consider using apiece of wood that measures 1 inch wide by 1/2 inch thick. If youput the guides on the wide side, so that you have a very wide butrelatively thin rod, it would be absolutely wimpy and cast like anoodle. On the other had, if you put the guides on the 1/2 inch wideside and cast it accordingly, you'd have a very stiff rod. The crosssectional area hasn't changed at all, but a large amount of the crosssectional area has moved farther from the centerline. I have the equations for a hex rod at work, not here at home, so Iwon't be able to tell you exactly how much the difference instiffness is, but there is a difference. I'll work out the equationsat lunch on Monday, and send it to you. Claude from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Tue Nov 6 08:24:00 2001 fA6ENx707641 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:23:59 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:13:50 -0600 Subject: RE: Stanley plane Where was the ethnic slur? I am trying to be very careful to not offendanyone, please tell me if I have failed at this. There is definitely more to it than just the hardness that is achievable.The grain size of the metal after HT and quench is what will determine howeasy it is to put an edge on the metal. This is why carbide is so difficultto sharpen. Carbide grains are very large in comparison to the martensitewhich comprises the majority of carbon steels. Large grains are moredifficult to sharpen. But the carbide is so hard, that the wear resistanceis excellent. It is not very impact resistant, thus the chipping that isseen over time. Harry can attest to the durability of the carbide edge, butgetting that initial edge is work. High carbon steel is really a very goodthing, so long as we don't allow it to pit. It is easy to sharpen to a verysharp edge, the wear resistance is good, and it is quite resistant to impactand chipping. Respectfully -- TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Stanley plane Troy,sensible post.A2 has never been the choice for edge tools. from what I can remember itcanonly be hardened to 57-59RC. I feel that good old 0-1 ground stock hardenedtothe max. (not draw back) will be perfect for finishing cane strips. We takelight cuts plane carefully and use an angle on the cutting edge that is muchlarger than stock blades giving much more strength.Thinking back, the plane I used to finish all my rods had a 62RC cuttingedge.Could it be that all the posturing about steel is not as important as thehardness and we could use more hardness than could be accepted for generalcarpentry?I would welcome a reply if you could keep just to the subject, withoutethnicslurs.Terry from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Nov 6 08:30:14 2001 fA6EUD708167 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:30:13 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane I think something like Limey Bastard could be construed as an ethnic slur but that was not said here Tony just called him an Englishman. I guess if someone called me that I would take offense to it as well. LOL!Bret I think something like Limey Bastard could be construed as anethnic slur but that was not said here Tony just called him an it as well. LOL!Bret from ttalsma@macatawa.org Tue Nov 6 08:33:32 2001 fA6EXV708532 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:33:31 -0600 id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:27:27 -0500 id V8NVM275; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:27:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Waara node press John, If you do have pictures, I'd be happy to put them on the tips site. Icould just have a link from your source listing to the pictures. Let meknow if you want to do it. BTW, if you were closer to the west coast (of Michigan, that is) I couldeven take a digital camera over there and take the pictures myself. Harry Boyd wrote: Shawn, I don't have any pictures, but John might. Also, I don't knowwhat John sells them for currently, but at the SRG it seems like theywere only $45. Seems like he sold about 25 of them. You MIGHT buildone for less yourself, but these are a good deal at that price. Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: Harry,anyone have any pictures of this, sounds interesting. If Iread this right it sounds sort of like a lever/cam vise that Leevalley is selling, I had thought of buying one but if memory servesme right it was $149 or 169??Shawn Harry Boyd wrote: Brian, The Waara node press is an ingenious little device created byBill Waara, Sr. John Long did a demo on the little press at theSRG. Seeing his little demo, I was skeptical. But John sent oneof the presses home with me. I used it quite a bit over theweekend, straightening and flattening the nodes on 3 rods' worthof strips. In almost no time flat, I could see that the littlepress was going to save me some time, and lots and lots ofheadaches. Basically the press is a toggle press cylinder bolted to an"L" shaped piece of metal. Beyond the press is a cut-out onebraces the cane against. Heat the cane, and place any kinks inthe cut-out. Press with the cylinder for a few seconds, andvoila! --- straight cane. Harry PS -- I cc'd John on this post. Brian Creek wrote: What are these? How does one contact Mr. Long?Brian -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from alspicer99@yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 08:41:26 2001 Received: from fA6EfO709067 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 Received: from [65.170.76.37] by web11004.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 06 Nov Thramer Cc: Rodmakers 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN A.J., Bill and List, Thanks fortaking the time to answer my question. You and Bill were very helpful and theinformation was much appreciated. I spent time last night placing the guides.I started by using A.J.'s suggestions then used bill's string bending technique.I made adjustments on two of the guides getting the spacing to where I thinkit should be. Now I'll spent the next week working on the wraps. Thanks againeveryone, Al Spicer Greensboro, NC --- Allen Thramerwrote: from tip in inches3.37.011.7517.5bottom guide on tip-should butt against the tip maleferrule3342.5strip guide shouls butt against the butt femaleferruleA.J. From: al spicer Subject: Need spacing for 6'_6" 3 piece Hi all, I'm working on finishing a rod and need some help.Could someone please give me the guide spacing for a 6'-6" 3 piece. Thanks, Al SpicerGreensboro, NC __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from jojo@ipa.net Tue Nov 6 08:44:58 2001 fA6Eiv709457 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:44:57 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:45:00 -0500 Subject: Re: I forgot one John Long, What was the oscillation rate for your raw cane Grand Experiment rod, and difference? M-D Tom, I am not sure whether heat treating time affects the modulus. Milwardseemed skeptical. I did a few beam-bending measurements and found nomeasurable difference between the pre-treated and a moderately treatedsamples (except for stress creep and shrinkage). Jim U Hi Claude - Yes, I have built identical rods twisted and straight, but not a lot of them. Frankly, once I proved the point to myself, I ran out ofambition for the work involved. I got mixed results in static deflectiontests, with some spiral rods seeming to be stiffer, and others seeming to be treatment may be the factor, with more heat treatment making for closer results, but Ican't really prove that. Dynamically, there is always a difference, with the spiral rod always being a significantly better caster. This shows up if you do an oscillation rate test. One of the reasons I stopped building matched sets is that anyone casting both rods looked at the straight rod as if it had leprosy, when, in fact, it was a perfectly fine fishing rod. I love to cast fly rods, but try not delude myself that casting and fishing are the same thing. from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Nov 6 08:56:54 2001 fA6Eur710130 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:56:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane carbide is not classed a metal and not produced the same way.The cutting edge geometry must be completely different if you want to usecarbide. You canot compare both, but you know this? Miller, Troy wrote: Where was the ethnic slur? I am trying to be very careful to not offendanyone, please tell me if I have failed at this. There is definitely more to it than just the hardness that is achievable.The grain size of the metal after HT and quench is what will determine howeasy it is to put an edge on the metal. This is why carbide is so difficultto sharpen. Carbide grains are very large in comparison to the martensitewhich comprises the majority of carbon steels. Large grains are moredifficult to sharpen. But the carbide is so hard, that the wear resistanceis excellent. It is not very impact resistant, thus the chipping that isseen over time. Harry can attest to the durability of the carbide edge, butgetting that initial edge is work. High carbon steel is really a very goodthing, so long as we don't allow it to pit. It is easy to sharpen to a verysharp edge, the wear resistance is good, and it is quite resistant to impactand chipping. Respectfully -- TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:46 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane Troy,sensible post.A2 has never been the choice for edge tools. from what I can remember itcanonly be hardened to 57-59RC. I feel that good old 0-1 ground stockhardenedtothe max. (not draw back) will be perfect for finishing cane strips. We takelight cuts plane carefully and use an angle on the cutting edge that is muchlarger than stock blades giving much more strength.Thinking back, the plane I used to finish all my rods had a 62RC cuttingedge.Could it be that all the posturing about steel is not as important as thehardness and we could use more hardness than could be accepted forgeneralcarpentry?I would welcome a reply if you could keep just to the subject, withoutethnicslurs.Terry from ccurrojr@voyager.net Tue Nov 6 09:04:36 2001 fA6F4Z710639 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:04:35 -0600 fA6F35B70103; Subject: Re: Waara node press To honor John Long's respect for his friend & mentor Bill Waara Sr. (notto mention the fact that John always gives me beer at rodmakersgatherings), I put up a couple of pics on the Waara press. http://www.curro.net/waara/ cc from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Tue Nov 6 09:37:48 2001 fA6Fbk712415 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:37:47 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:27:35 -0600 Subject: RE: Stanley plane Hi Tony -- I believe that the hardness at 58 or 59 Rc is adequate, but the toughnesswas not. I also made some of lower hardness, that should have had highercharpy's impact resistance, but it dulled very quickly. This was normalwear, as in rounding of the edge. No chipping. Chipping of a cutting structure is normally a result of low charpys number.Not many people talk in terms of charpys, but that is the parameter thatwill determine how easily a steel will chip, rather than the hardnessnumber. Ideally, you'd like to have both high hardness and high impactresistance. I'm kinda like St. Pete on this one. I am not a metallurgist, but I have tospend 8 hours a day with them. Finally, something good rubs off...... : ) -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Stanley plane Thankyou Troy. Personally, not being a metallurgist I'm not as concerned about if it's strictly a SS or carbon steel as I am in the results results.So, the question now is, is the chipping you've observed due to insufficient hardness, too hard or the chrome chipping or a combination?Well done in any event because although many may say so what? there are others who have a keen interest in this. Tony from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Nov 6 09:41:36 2001 fA6FfZ713036 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:41:35 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:38:03 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Waara node press Charlie,thanks, it's not quite what I pictured. Which side of the bamboo goesagainst the nut??ShawnCharlie Curro wrote: To honor John Long's respect for his friend & mentor Bill Waara Sr. (notto mention the fact that John always gives me beer at rodmakersgatherings), I put up a couple of pics on the Waara press. http://www.curro.net/waara/ cc from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 6 09:46:37 2001 fA6FkZ714553 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:46:35 -0600 Subject: Re: SRG 2001 Great pictures Charlie! I'm ready to register for next year! Thanks a bunch,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com fbcwin@3g.quik.com wrote: Uncle Chuckie, I think you've done even better work this year than in years past, ifthat's possible. Jim's pictures were a nice addition as well. Can't waittill Dennis's stuff is up. Only one regret... looking at your picturesreminds me how much I didn't have a chance to see and do. Oh well, as yousay, there's always next year. Muchas graciasDa Rev Charlie Curro wrote: Listers It's that time again for visual evidence of the fun & goodwill that canalways be found at the Southern Rodmakers Gathering (not to be confusedwith the fun & goodwill that can MOST of the time be found on thislist). The address is -http://www.curro.net/SRG/index2002.html See you in 2002. cc -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Nov 6 09:50:26 2001 fA6FoN715840 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:50:23 -0600 Subject: RE: Stanley plane Well, metallurgist or not you're picking up all the dark secretes by the sounds of it. At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to show what little I know but a Japanese chisel or iron is very hard so you really shouldn't drop one for fear of chipping but does this matter enough for our use to trade off edge keeping ability? Tony At 09:36 AM 11/6/01 -0600, Miller, Troy wrote: Hi Tony -- I believe that the hardness at 58 or 59 Rc is adequate, but the toughnesswas not. I also made some of lower hardness, that should have had highercharpy's impact resistance, but it dulled very quickly. This was normalwear, as in rounding of the edge. No chipping. Chipping of a cutting structure is normally a result of low charpys number.Not many people talk in terms of charpys, but that is the parameter thatwill determine how easily a steel will chip, rather than the hardnessnumber. Ideally, you'd like to have both high hardness and high impactresistance. I'm kinda like St. Pete on this one. I am not a metallurgist, but I have tospend 8 hours a day with them. Finally, something good rubs off...... : ) /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Tue Nov 6 10:11:59 2001 fA6GBw720640 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:11:58 -0600 KAA10134; KAA20757; fA6GBwI13002; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:11:30 -0800 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Stanley plane this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I don't know how true this is, but I was told the same metal they put tomake them harder to rust and some what stainless has larger moleculesthanregular steel and thus can not be sharpened as sharp. The size of themolecules determine how sharp and edge is possible to attain. This was toldto me by someone with a degree in metallurgy and I don't know if it's trueor not. I know from experience that you get a better edge on plain carbonsteel as compared to stainless steel. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Stanley plane Excellent point. The older Stanley planes I have been getting through eBayhave much better blades than the blades on the new Stanley planes. The oldStanley blades are much harder, they can be sharpened sharper, and theyarealways rusted when I get them. The new blades don't rust, but they don'tsharpen as sharp and they don't hold an edge as long. Seems like adifferent metal composition to me..... Darryl Hayashida Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony I don't know how true this is, but I was told the same metal they put to makethem harder to rust and some what stainless has larger molecules than regularsteel and thus can not be sharpened as sharp. The size of the molecules determinehow sharp and edge is possible to attain. This was told to me by someone with a degree in metallurgy and I don't know if it's true or not. I know from experience that you get a better edge on plain carbon steel as compared to stainless steel. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair Planning 61-79 -----Original Message-----From: DNHayashida@aol.com 2001 10:07 Re: Stanley planeExcellent point. The older Stanley planes I have been getting through eBay have much better blades than the blades on the new Stanley planes. The old Stanley blades are much harder, they can be sharpenedsharper, and they are always rusted when I get them. The new blades don't rust, but they don't sharpen as sharp and they don't hold an edge as long. like a different metal composition to me..... Darryl Hayashida Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chipingoff the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Tue Nov 6 10:30:55 2001 fA6GUe722399 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:30:40 -0600 KAA28434 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:31:05 -0600 IAA11176 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:30:46 -0800 fA6GUkI23390 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:30:46 -0800 (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:30:43 -0800 Subject: plane irons There is a real simple answer for why the old Stanley plane blades arebetter than the new ones. In the old days they were made for people whomadetheir living using them and now they are made for people making chips intheir garage once in a while. They make them easier to sharpen so everybodycan make them sharp enough to make chips but not hard enough to hold andedge for a long time. Time is money and a carpenter or cabinet maker didn'thave time to sharpen his blades every hour or two, it cost him to much downtime. I have a set of bedrocks / Stanley's from a 8 to a 2, each made atleast 70 years ago and they hold an edge a heck of lot better that the newones. The shop I worked at specialized in upright basses and everything washand planed and you learn in a hurry what's good and what's bad. When theold blades wore down to the adjustment slot we would brake them in halflength wise and make carving knives and finger plane blades out of them. Ihad a set of Japanese chisels that I gave away after the first month and gotmy self a set of Swedish steel chisels, stayed sharp almost the whole day,same with the Swedish plane irons- better than anything we ever tried. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Tue Nov 6 10:38:14 2001 fA6GcD722978 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:38:14 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:27:02 -0600 "'DNHayashida@aol.com'", rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Stanley plane You hit it exactly on the head, Patrick. When chromium is alloyed into asteel, the average grain size becomes larger, and it becomes more difficultto put the keen edge on the iron that we demand. Not impossible, but moredifficult. TAM-----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Stanley plane I don't know how true this is, but I was told the same metal they put tomake them harder to rust and some what stainless has larger moleculesthanregular steel and thus can not be sharpened as sharp. The size of themolecules determine how sharp and edge is possible to attain. This was toldto me by someone with a degree in metallurgy and I don't know if it's trueor not. I know from experience that you get a better edge on plain carbonsteel as compared to stainless steel. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Stanley plane Excellent point. The older Stanley planes I have been getting through eBayhave much better blades than the blades on the new Stanley planes. The oldStanley blades are much harder, they can be sharpened sharper, and theyarealways rusted when I get them. The new blades don't rust, but they don'tsharpen as sharp and they don't hold an edge as long. Seems like adifferent metal composition to me..... Darryl Hayashida Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record plane irons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Nov 6 10:44:53 2001 fA6Gip723499 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:44:51 -0600 Subject: Re: plane irons And the truth shall set you free!!! Tony At 08:30 AM 11/6/01 -0800, Coffey, Patrick W wrote: There is a real simple answer for why the old Stanley plane blades arebetter than the new ones. In the old days they were made for people whomadetheir living using them and now they are made for people making chips intheir garage once in a while. They make them easier to sharpen soeverybodycan make them sharp enough to make chips but not hard enough to hold andedge for a long time. Time is money and a carpenter or cabinet maker didn'thave time to sharpen his blades every hour or two, it cost him to muchdowntime. I have a set of bedrocks / Stanley's from a 8 to a 2, each made atleast 70 years ago and they hold an edge a heck of lot better that the newones. The shop I worked at specialized in upright basses and everything washand planed and you learn in a hurry what's good and what's bad. When theold blades wore down to the adjustment slot we would brake them in halflength wise and make carving knives and finger plane blades out of them. Ihad a set of Japanese chisels that I gave away after the first month andgotmy self a set of Swedish steel chisels, stayed sharp almost the whole day,same with the Swedish plane irons- better than anything we ever tried. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Nov 6 10:47:13 2001 fA6GlC723842 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:47:12 -0600 Subject: REC ferrule order This is to inform everyone where we stand on the ferrule order. I still am waiting for two people to send me their checks and we can get this order finished up. I was in contact with REC Monday and they said the order is pulled and ready to go. I am hoping that I see the other checks soon so I can cal them and give them credit card info. If you have not sent me your check yet please do so. I know other guys are eager to get their stuff.Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) This is to inform everyone where we stand on the ferrule are eager to get their stuff.Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from jvswan@earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 10:48:31 2001 fA6GmU724068 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:48:31 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108Subject: Re: Waara node press OK, now I piqued. For the benefit of those of us who were not at thegathering, how does this item work? For fifty bucks, it would fit nicely inmy Christmas wish list! However, I'm still a little foggy. But, then, Istill have yet to press a node any which way... Jason On 11/6/01 7:59 AM, "Charlie Curro" wrote: To honor John Long's respect for his friend & mentor Bill Waara Sr. (notto mention the fact that John always gives me beer at rodmakersgatherings), I put up a couple of pics on the Waara press. http://www.curro.net/waara/ cc from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Nov 6 10:58:44 2001 fA6Gwi724688 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:58:44 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:58:45 -0500 Subject: Flying with the Parrots Regarding my contribution to the list,When ever I have rejoined the list I have never "run with the pack" or"flew with the Parrots" is probably a better description.Check out the archives and the big fights I got into for the followingand tell me who was right!I laughed at the 6 min Garrison heat treatment and said it was a typoeven though the same recipe was included in a knock off book. Who heattreats to 6mins now?I suggested that Garrison tapers would not be popular with modern FF?Who makes Garrison tapers now?I suggested that perhaps designing tapers with a computer programme waswell......!Who now uses a computer for their tapers?I mentioned that a beveller was the only way to make rods into a seriousbusiness venture. Who is not now looking for a beveller to increasetheir output?I thought that the hand mill had a limited value. The guy that boastedhe could finish a set of blanks in 40 mins is now buying old planes one-bay!I thought that all the rodmaking books had an ingredient missing. Lookat the interest in impregnating.This is not a personal endosement of myself just self defence.I really have no need to seek self gratification on this list, I havealways said that rodmaking was easy and have always said so on the list. It all means more to some of you guys, it is rather scary. I havedeleted 12 emails from one guy and it is only noon. Thats rodmaking foryou!Terry from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Tue Nov 6 11:15:41 2001 fA6HFe725829 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:15:40 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:12:38 -0600 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:15:46 -0800 Subject: RE: Flying with the Parrots Still full of untruths. I'm the guy who said "he could finish a set of blanks in 40 mins". Look inthe archives! I said I could finish a blank in 3 1/2 hours, and I still canon my Morgan handmill if the strips are soaked. And yes I still design mytapers on a computer. In fact the 8 ft. to 6 ft. convertible rod I amworking on now was designed on a computer.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 9:01 AM Subject: Flying with the Parrots Regarding my contribution to the list,When ever I have rejoined the list I have never "run with the pack" or"flew with the Parrots" is probably a better description.Check out the archives and the big fights I got into for the followingand tell me who was right!I laughed at the 6 min Garrison heat treatment and said it was a typoeven though the same recipe was included in a knock off book. Who heattreats to 6mins now?I suggested that Garrison tapers would not be popular with modern FF?Who makes Garrison tapers now?I suggested that perhaps designing tapers with a computer programme waswell......!Who now uses a computer for their tapers?I mentioned that a beveller was the only way to make rods into a seriousbusiness venture. Who is not now looking for a beveller to increasetheir output?I thought that the hand mill had a limited value. The guy that boastedhe could finish a set of blanks in 40 mins is now buying old planes one-bay!I thought that all the rodmaking books had an ingredient missing. Lookat the interest in impregnating.This is not a personal endosement of myself just self defence.I really have no need to seek self gratification on this list, I havealways said that rodmaking was easy and have always said so on the list. It all means more to some of you guys, it is rather scary. I havedeleted 12 emails from one guy and it is only noon. Thats rodmaking foryou!Terry This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Tue Nov 6 11:22:29 2001 fA6HMS726303 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:22:28 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:22:34 -0600 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:20:41 -0800 Subject: RE: Flying with the Parrots Excuse me I forgot one point. I can finish planing a blank in 3 1/2 hours,not finish the whole blank. Still, look in the archives to see the originalpost!Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 9:16 AM Subject: RE: Flying with the Parrots Still full of untruths. I'm the guy who said "he could finish a set of blanks in 40 mins". Look inthe archives! I said I could finish a blank in 3 1/2 hours, and I stillcanon my Morgan handmill if the strips are soaked. And yes I still design mytapers on a computer. In fact the 8 ft. to 6 ft. convertible rod I amworking on now was designed on a computer.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 9:01 AM Subject: Flying with the Parrots Regarding my contribution to the list,When ever I have rejoined the list I have never "run with the pack" or"flew with the Parrots" is probably a better description.Check out the archives and the big fights I got into for the followingand tell me who was right!I laughed at the 6 min Garrison heat treatment and said it was a typoeven though the same recipe was included in a knock off book. Who heattreats to 6mins now?I suggested that Garrison tapers would not be popular with modern FF?Who makes Garrison tapers now?I suggested that perhaps designing tapers with a computer programmewaswell......!Who now uses a computer for their tapers?I mentioned that a beveller was the only way to make rods into a seriousbusiness venture. Who is not now looking for a beveller to increasetheir output?I thought that the hand mill had a limited value. The guy that boastedhe could finish a set of blanks in 40 mins is now buying old planes one-bay!I thought that all the rodmaking books had an ingredient missing. Lookat the interest in impregnating.This is not a personal endosement of myself just self defence.I really have no need to seek self gratification on this list, I havealways said that rodmaking was easy and have always said so on the list. It all means more to some of you guys, it is rather scary. I havedeleted 12 emails from one guy and it is only noon. Thats rodmaking foryou!Terry This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of theindividual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient,be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contentsof this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notifythe sender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Nov 6 11:28:36 2001 fA6HSY726860 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:28:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Flying with the Parrots I know you can't resist peeking so I'll reply to you as others surely will. Regarding my contribution to the list,When ever I have rejoined the list I have never "run with the pack" or"flew with the Parrots" is probably a better description.Check out the archives and the big fights I got into for the followingand tell me who was right!I laughed at the 6 min Garrison heat treatment and said it was a typoeven though the same recipe was included in a knock off book. Who heattreats to 6mins now? It's escape with the rats I suspect.You weren't the only one with the temp thing in the book, sorry. But you were right. I suggested that Garrison tapers would not be popular with modern FF?Who makes Garrison tapers now? Lots of people, you also laughed at paras because nobody can cast them either. The PHY rods are currently the most popular judging on the responses on list when anybody asks. Sorry you can't cast a Garrison by the way. I suggested that perhaps designing tapers with a computer programme waswell......!Who now uses a computer for their tapers? That was a foray into new territory. Some people are doing it. I hate to mention it but I've always thought it impossible with the currently available math as have others though it's a handy tool to modify tapers to the point they are new tapers. I know, I'm grandstanding but it's in the archives, take a look. I mentioned that a beveller was the only way to make rods into a seriousbusiness venture. Who is not now looking for a beveller to increasetheir output?I thought that the hand mill had a limited value. The guy that boastedhe could finish a set of blanks in 40 mins is now buying old planes one-bay!I thought that all the rodmaking books had an ingredient missing. Lookat the interest in impregnating. Don't worry too much about it. The interest in impregnation will pass like PC designed tapers. One thing missing from your little list though is the plane iron. Have you beat a retreat on this? Is it possible you've actually looked at one, seen what everybody keeps telling you and are now showing selective memoryloss? Something else is you also seem to have left epoxy off your list. It's going to fail any time now. This is not a personal endosement of myself just self defence.I really have no need to seek self gratification on this list, I havealways said that rodmaking was easy and have always said so on the list. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, oh Terry, you make me laugh some times. Honestly. You must be the most misunderstood and unsung hero of all time. You wont hear it but there's a violin playing for you.How are the brass spittoons going? It all means more to some of you guys, it is rather scary. I havedeleted 12 emails from one guy and it is only noon. Thats rodmaking foryou!Terry Probably some of the best reading all day Tezza, no doubt you peeked first right? Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 11:33:52 2001 fA6HXp727309 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:33:51 -0600 06 Nov 2001 09:33:59 PST Subject: Re: Flying with the Parrots terry, the issue isn't information. the issue isbehavior. poor behavior is never "right". timothy --- "T. Ackland" wrote: Regarding my contribution to the list,When ever I have rejoined the list I have never "runwith the pack" or"flew with the Parrots" is probably a betterdescription.Check out the archives and the big fights I got into and tell me who was right!I laughed at the 6 min Garrison heat treatment andsaid it was a typoeven though the same recipe was included in a knockoff book. Who heattreats to 6mins now?I suggested that Garrison tapers would not bepopular with modern FF?Who makes Garrison tapers now?I suggested that perhaps designing tapers with acomputer programme waswell......!Who now uses a computer for their tapers?I mentioned that a beveller was the only way to makerods into a seriousbusiness venture. Who is not now looking for abeveller to increasetheir output?I thought that the hand mill had a limited value.The guy that boastedhe could finish a set of blanks in 40 mins is nowbuying old planes one-bay!I thought that all the rodmaking books had aningredient missing. Lookat the interest in impregnating.This is not a personal endosement of myself justself defence.I really have no need to seek self gratification onthis list, I havealways said that rodmaking was easy and have alwayssaid so on the list. It all means more to some of you guys, it is ratherscary. I havedeleted 12 emails from one guy and it is only noon.Thats rodmaking foryou!Terry ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 11:38:43 2001 fA6Hcg727853 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:38:42 -0600 06 Nov 2001 09:38:50 PST Subject: RE: Stanley plane there wasn't an ethnic slur. it's an old debaterstrick. when you get caught with your pants down youcall the other guy naked and look at the ground. timothy --- "Miller, Troy" wrote: Where was the ethnic slur? I am trying to be verycareful to not offendanyone, please tell me if I have failed at this. There is definitely more to it than just thehardness that is achievable.The grain size of the metal after HT and quench iswhat will determine howeasy it is to put an edge on the metal. This is whycarbide is so difficultto sharpen. Carbide grains are very large incomparison to the martensitewhich comprises the majority of carbon steels. Large grains are moredifficult to sharpen. But the carbide is so hard,that the wear resistanceis excellent. It is not very impact resistant, thusthe chipping that isseen over time. Harry can attest to the durabilityof the carbide edge, butgetting that initial edge is work. High carbonsteel is really a very goodthing, so long as we don't allow it to pit. It iseasy to sharpen to a verysharp edge, the wear resistance is good, and it isquite resistant to impactand chipping. Respectfully -- TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:46 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane Troy,sensible post.A2 has never been the choice for edge tools. Fromwhat I can remember it canonly be hardened to 57-59RC. I feel that good old0-1 ground stock hardenedtothe max. (not draw back) will be perfect forfinishing cane strips. We takelight cuts plane carefully and use an angle on thecutting edge that is muchlarger than stock blades giving much more strength.Thinking back, the plane I used to finish all myrods had a 62RC cuttingedge.Could it be that all the posturing about steel isnot as important as thehardness and we could use more hardness than couldbe accepted for generalcarpentry?I would welcome a reply if you could keep just tothe subject, withoutethnicslurs.Terry ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from ChristopherO@epicimaging.com Tue Nov 6 11:44:44 2001 fA6Hih728398 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:44:43 -0600 id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:33:47 -0800 Subject: RE: the Morgan handmill The comments below are misleading regarding user's opinions of the MorganHandmill. A considerable number of rodmakers who earn part of all of their livingmaking rods use the morgan mill either as the primary tool for taperingsplines, or to finnish beveled strips to accurate dimensions. Most don't advertise exactly how they make blanks (beveler, handmill, orplane), though the more professional makers you talk to, the more handmillusers you find. Talk to tom morgan and you also get an inkling of how manyhandmill users are out there. If you don't think using the handmill for commercial production is feasible,talk to Per Brandon (who almost exclusively uses the handmill, and has atestimony to it on his website). I have no commercial interest in the handmill, but I do use one to makerods. I have seen no other method that produces more accurate dimensions(both true to the taper, and between strips/flats on the finished rod).Each individual strip takes me between 6 and 10 minutes total planing time. I also have the utmost respect for tom morgan as a rodmaker and tooldesigner. Just my two cents. Chris -----Original Message----- Regarding my contribution to the list, . . .and the big fights I got into for the followingand tell me who was right!. . .I thought that the hand mill had a limited value. The guy that boastedhe could finish a set of blanks in 40 mins is now buying old planes one-bay!. . .Terry from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Nov 6 12:05:40 2001 fA6I5c700142 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:05:38 -0600 "T. Ackland" Subject: RE: Stanley plane I mentioned I think TA had an English apprentiship. Now, I don't know how these things are done in the US but an English apprentiship is something that means something.It ensures a minimum standard of ability has been achieved and there is a board who take all this very seriously ensuring that remains so.The same method is used here. The 1st year of it could easily be scrapped but in all other aspects it's a very good system indeed and (sorry for this unbridled self aggrandizement) I did an apprenticship in the English manner. Apart from some of the jerks on the jobs it's a great way to learn a trade. No tradesman should ever encourage a degradation of a trade or a craft because they are encouraged to take apprentices and maintain the standard. Presumably TA took any association with him and England to be a slur. Being of a background as I am that was sent here at gun point and told to stay away from Mother England and so not having much in the way of any real allegiance to it, not even I consider being called an Englishman to be a slur, except when I'm mistaken for one. [:-)] Tony At 09:38 AM 11/6/01 -0800, timothy troester wrote: there wasn't an ethnic slur. it's an old debaterstrick. when you get caught with your pants down youcall the other guy naked and look at the ground.timothy --- "Miller, Troy" wrote: Where was the ethnic slur? I am trying to be verycareful to not offendanyone, please tell me if I have failed at this. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from hartzell@easystreet.com Tue Nov 6 12:06:25 2001 fA6I6O700300 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:06:24 -0600 Subject: Re: Stanley plane Troy,Have you ever tried A10? I have made knurls from it and they seem toworkand last well. Have never tried a plane blade. I believe you do not need toget it quite so hot to achieve the air hardening process as you do the A2.Ed Hartzell "Miller, Troy" wrote: Terry and Tony -- These classes overlap. If it has carbon in it, it is a carbon steel. Thereare subclasses called low carbon, medium carbon, and high carbon thatdescribe the carbon content. If it has more than 4% Cr and more than .5%Mo, it is generally a stainless. The proper classification (most accurateand descriptive) of A2 is "Air-Hardenable Tool Steel" or "Air QuenchableTool Steel". Out of any metals handbook. The benefit of using A2 toolsteel (in general) is that you can finish machine a part, and then HT it andquench it without it significantly distorting. Most other steels used todayrequire a more rapid quenching sequence, by water or oil, which ends updistorting (i.e. - warping) the part. Therefore you could not finishmachine most steels before heat treating. I have finish-machined parts made from A2 (plane irons, in fact) before HT,and let me tell you, it is nice to do. Milling is so much easier onannealed steel than on hardened steel. That was my main motivation inusingthe A2. I did it before Ron Hock came out with his A2's, but I did not findthem to be tough enough. My hardness was fine at about 58 to 59, buttheydulled very quickly. When looked at under a jewelers lupe, distinct chipswere observable. Not just the normal "rounding" which I would call wear,but actual chipping. I deduced, therefore, that I could not maintaintoughness at high hardness with this metal. Hock has found a way to dothiswith his freezing process, but I am not a big fan of liquid N2.... Thanks goes to Bob Nunley for helping me test these (unacceptable) irons.Bob, do you still have them? How about we anneal them and try anon- "by-the-book" HT and quench routine? I'll pick them up when I come upnext month and try something completely different.... TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 12:44 PM Cc: nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca; bob@downandacross.com;jvswan@earthlink.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane Actually Tony the steelmakers class any steel that contains a chromiumcontent ofmore than 3.99% as a heat resisting or stainless steel. A2 contains 5%chromium soit is not a carbon steel by definition of the industry!TerryTony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent and they'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanleyuse A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on yourpart.A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or highchrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test lookedlike carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site andtheyare nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heattreating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be betterspent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from theperhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny littlestatements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. You know very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oilthough water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here athome and a large association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of themembers is a metallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels andplane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons theseguys are supplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality in general is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being the blacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort of time is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used by Stanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chromein it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on the performance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brandnew 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and wastoo blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6 fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when onerollsoverboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a company can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably whenthe bean counter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one muchuse hand tools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t formclay anyhow when it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be really surprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather than harping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make ironsgood enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of yearsback. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he saidit but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record (the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makers induction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so thatdo not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and thatwas all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record planeirons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessivechiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (andan A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference betweenthe old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seemto have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depthadjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay$40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for$29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from gjm80301@yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 12:08:55 2001 fA6I8t700726 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:08:55 - Tue, 06 Nov 2001 10:09:03 PST Subject: List I just hope that I can continue to learn until the day I die. Ihappen to learn quite bit here, so here I am. I suspect quite a fewfeel the same way. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Nov 6 12:17:47 2001 fA6IHk701612 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:17:46 - Subject: Re: List You're right and that's why TA is basically ok. He acts like he's on drugs or something but there's nothing like debate to find things out even when the reason for it isn't at first apparent.Understanding as much as possible about what you do makes the reasonswhy you do it more interesting and the knowledge builds upon itself.This list is great simply because all kinds of stuff appears on it and in this aspect TA is right, there isn't that much to rodmaking once you get beyond the basics that can be related, you just have to do it. It's a good Tony At 10:09 AM 11/6/01 -0800, Jerry Madigan wrote: I just hope that I can continue to learn until the day I die. Ihappen to learn quite bit here, so here I am. I suspect quite a fewfeel the same way. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Tue Nov 6 12:29:07 2001 fA6IT6702476 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:29:07 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:26:04 -0600 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:21:33 -0800 Subject: RE: Flying with the Parrots You know, I still wonder about this one. You mentioned you heat treat ataround 390 deg. F for 15 minutes if I remember right. I tried it on somescrap bamboo, and I got charcoal. Actually 7 minutes at 375 deg. F seemedjust about right in my oven.Darryl Hayashida I laughed at the 6 min Garrison heat treatment and said it was a typoeven though the same recipe was included in a knock off book. Who heattreats to 6mins now? It's escape with the rats I suspect.You weren't the only one with the temp thing in the book, sorry. But you were right. This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from rodmaker@troutchaser.com Tue Nov 6 12:38:17 2001 fA6IcH703066 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:38:17 -0600 06 Nov 2001 10:38:19 PST Subject: So Long!!!! Gentlemen: When I first joined the list over 3 years ago, there was a wealth of knowledgethat was exchanged on the list. There was little cyber bickering and youalmost always knew that a message coming in from rodmakers containedvalue. I fear that is no longer the case. There are way more non rodmakingrelated posts (read personal replies) to issues that would be better dropped. It has degenerated into another RROFF I'm afraid. I would like to thank everyone for helping me get started. Without theknowledge and prodding from the list, I would never have arrived at the rodbuilding state I am at today. A big thank-you to Craig Naldrett & Tony Young. I will check back in after winter is over and see if things are any better. So long,....ron Ron ElderCalgary, AB Ron ElderTroutchaser Rod Co.Calgary, ABwww.troutchaser.com from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Nov 6 12:58:25 2001 fA6IwO703958 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:58:24 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:54:49 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: So Long!!!! All,sorry but I have to agree with Ron, I'm outta here. I really enjoyed theinfo and stories we have shared over the years. Heck, I almost lived on herewaiting for messages (Bob Nunley knows what I mean!) , I hated to be away from the list more than a day, when I was deployed away from home for 3months, I couldn't wait to get home and read the 1800 messages that werewaiting for me.But sadly, I have better things to dothan read what these posts have diminished into over the past little while.I have made some good friends here and I hope that they drop me a line from time to time. I would be happy to talk about rods with anyone on thelist. Perhaps I'll check back later on and see how things are going.If anyone wishes to talk to me you can reach me atnsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thanks to everyone,Shawn Ron Elder wrote: Gentlemen: When I first joined the list over 3 years ago, there was a wealth ofknowledge that was exchanged on the list. There was little cyber bickeringand you almost always knew that a message coming in from rodmakerscontained value. I fear that is no longer the case. There are way more nonrodmaking related posts (read personal replies) to issues that would bebetter dropped. It has degenerated into another RROFF I'm afraid. I would like to thank everyone for helping me get started. Without theknowledge and prodding from the list, I would never have arrived at the rodbuilding state I am at today. A big thank-you to Craig Naldrett & Tony Young. I will check back in after winter is over and see if things are any better. So long,....ron Ron ElderCalgary, AB Ron ElderTroutchaser Rod Co.Calgary, ABwww.troutchaser.com from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Tue Nov 6 13:13:18 2001 fA6JDH704761 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:13:17 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:03:09 -0600 Subject: RE: Stanley plane No, I have not. I have tried steels which are readily available in bar formwith the appropriate dimensions for a plane iron. I have not come acrossA10, but if anyone has any flat stock they would like me to make some ironsout of, send it my way and we'll make this a group effort. I have all themilling dimensions that I used last year, and I have a numeric Bridgeportthat I've gotten fairly proficient on. After hours, of course.... [;)] -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Stanley plane Troy,Have you ever tried A10? I have made knurls from it and they seem toworkand last well. Have never tried a plane blade. I believe you do not needtoget it quite so hot to achieve the air hardening process as you do the A2.Ed Hartzell "Miller, Troy" wrote: Terry and Tony -- These classes overlap. If it has carbon in it, it is a carbon steel. There are subclasses called low carbon, medium carbon, and high carbon thatdescribe the carbon content. If it has more than 4% Cr and more than .5%Mo, it is generally a stainless. The proper classification (most accurateand descriptive) of A2 is "Air-Hardenable Tool Steel" or "Air QuenchableTool Steel". Out of any metals handbook. The benefit of using A2 toolsteel (in general) is that you can finish machine a part, and then HT it and quench it without it significantly distorting. Most other steels used today require a more rapid quenching sequence, by water or oil, which ends updistorting (i.e. - warping) the part. Therefore you could not finishmachine most steels before heat treating. I have finish-machined parts made from A2 (plane irons, in fact) before HT, and let me tell you, it is nice to do. Milling is so much easier onannealed steel than on hardened steel. That was my main motivation in using the A2. I did it before Ron Hock came out with his A2's, but I did not find them to be tough enough. My hardness was fine at about 58 to 59, buttheydulled very quickly. When looked at under a jewelers lupe, distinct chipswere observable. Not just the normal "rounding" which I would call wear,but actual chipping. I deduced, therefore, that I could not maintaintoughness at high hardness with this metal. Hock has found a way to do this with his freezing process, but I am not a big fan of liquid N2.... Thanks goes to Bob Nunley for helping me test these (unacceptable) irons.Bob, do you still have them? How about we anneal them and try anon- "by-the-book" HT and quench routine? I'll pick them up when I come upnext month and try something completely different.... TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 12:44 PM Cc: nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca; bob@downandacross.com;jvswan@earthlink.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Stanley plane Actually Tony the steelmakers class any steel that contains a chromiumcontent ofmore than 3.99% as a heat resisting or stainless steel. A2 contains 5%chromium soit is not a carbon steel by definition of the industry!TerryTony Young wrote: If Hock has changed the steel to an inferior one it'll soon be apparent and they'll see the consequences soon enough.I really wish you'd stop harping about the planes you and Noah used tobuild the arc and try a new plane iron.The other thing is I can't actually remember anybody ever saying Stanleyuse A2. You suggested it was W-1 but that was just a guess on your part. A2 IS carbon steel. Tony At 09:38 PM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Shawn,I am confused. I have been told on the list that Stanley us A2 or highchrome steel whichcannot be honed as sharp as carbon steel so is not as good as Hock. Iwould agree with thisbut did not believe that Stanley used A2 because the spark test lookedlike carbon steel tome on the 4 planes I have. I then checked out the Hock web site and they are nowintroducing A2 steel because it holds its edge better than cabon steel!I think it is just a marketing ploy to relieve us of money as usual.Terrycheck out the hock website, an interesting article on home heat treating. Shawn Pineo wrote: Terry,I am not overly knowledgeable in "steelology" but what I heard is that the steel Stanley uses is not necessarily inferior but more of a compromise between hardness / sharpening ease / and / corrosion resistance.I use both and must agree that the Hock does sharpen faster and stay that way longer, I try not to let ANY of my tools rust though so I can't comment on that. The one thing I think the Hock might have going for it though is the fact that it is quite a bit thicker than the stock blades, that might help with the chatter?? I don't know but after spending $100 on Hock blades for my 9 1/2 and 60 1/2 I don't feel gypped but when starting out I think that money might be better spent on other tools or better components, just my opinion,Shawn "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,I do not have that much interest in planing, I have given a lot of effort to relieve myself of it thank goodness!Why would a company like Stanley with years of making Quality planes somehow start to choose the wrong steel? Try and be logical, 200 years of plane making and they cannot cannot choose the right off the shelf steel from the perhaps 3 or 4 worth considering. It just does not add up.Terry Tony Young wrote: Something I've noticed is the way you make funny little statements like "I have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane", I'd be pretty surprised if you had actually unless of course you have microscopes for eyes. You know very well the chipping is taking place in a very small scale but then the cutting edge itself is on a small scale so it does make a difference. Assuming stock irons (or blades as you call them though that is incorrect) are W1 and that's big assumption I'd need to have verified by somebody who knows for sure the recommended heat quench medium is oilthough water can be used.True it has 0% chrome which is the reason I suspect Stanly don't use this because the edge becomes pretty ragged pretty quickly and they DON'T rust as fast as better tool steel will.The NEW ie. younger than 15 years at least vintage irons don't rust very quickly compared with decent high carbon steel either.W1 is a general purpose steel with a medium wear resistance. It's toughness is also medium which is good.Carbon 0.16 - 1.40%Hardening 1,400- 1,550fTempering temps 305-650fRc Hardenss 64-50Distortion in heat treating low to medium A2 is air hardened it's wear resistance is high and toughness is medium. Carbon 1%Chromium 5%Molybdenum 5%Hardening 1,400-1,550fTempering 350-1,000fRc 62-57Distortion in heat treating very low I have very easy access to a black smith forge both here athome and a large association of blacksmiths here in Perth, one of the members is a metallurgist for one of the Unis we have here. I'm into making planes and chisels which is my interest in forging. I have no idea about what Toyota coil springs are made of but they make excellent chisels and plane irons as well as the occasional knife.The steel will take an edge like a Hock and they rust very quickly indeed, especially compared to a standard iron also it must be oil quenched.This means nothing except the steel is better than the std plane irons as far as edge holding is concerned so the sts plane irons these guys are supplying are not really that good.Obviously the question of what Stanley plane irons and tool quality in general is like is in the opinion of the man who'd know, he being the blacksmith (hobbyist) of 30 years and metallurgist for the same sort of time is they are nothing but crap. Give them the floatation test in deep water. Next time I see him I'll ask if he knows what steel is being used by Stanley but I do know he has told me the high amount of chrome in it is the problem. I don't know if he knows that or is assuming it based on the performance of the edge. Just from personal experience I can tell you the chisels are no better. I mortised a slot in my gunwhale made of teak and bent a brandnew 6mm chisel which was very sharp whe I started. Teak is soft wood and the mortise was only 25mm deep and 6mm wide. The bloody thing bent and wastoo blunt to use when I finished the first mortise. It failed the floatation test in 6 fathoms. The only reason I had Stanly chisels on board is they don't rust as fast as my good chisels and I'm never that upset when one rolls overboard unless it's the only one of the size I need.All the fact they have been around for 200 years shows is a company can go from making decent stuff to junk over night presumably whenthe bean counter arrive on the scene. The problem really is no one much use hand tools anymore apart from handy men who would know s!!t formclay anyhow when it comes to tools.Have you seen the latest planes? They can't be serious. I'd be really surprised if they put decent irons in these toys they have now. We really should be supporting people making decent tools rather than harping on about rubbish that Stanly in particular make irons good enough Get a Hock or Japanese laminated iron and loose the std one. The cost is trifling if you count the times you'll save going to the sharpening bench. The Japanese irons had a bad press on list a couple of years back. I can't remember who it was but he was worth listening to when he said it but mine was very good until it was nicked on a job (I was working with Kiwis [:-)] ) but these may be good to try again as well. Suggest Terry you get a recent token iron offering of Stanly and Record (the Record irons are a bit better) and try one. Tony At 10:59 AM 11/3/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: There is far more chrome in A-2 (5%) than stock blades (0%)A-2 is used by hock because they harden the whole blade and A-2 does not warp because it is air hardening, this is the only reason. Plane makers induction hardentheir blades but just the cutting area. It is then water hardened with a spray, soI guess the steel is W-1The old story about Stanley blades having more chrome so that do not rust whenthey get left lying around in a pickup is pure crap, it is the reverse, A-2 is theblade that should be classified as stainlessI have never managed to chip a stock blade on cane and thatwas all I ever used.Terry Tony Young wrote: Are the std CURRENTLY supplied Stanly and Record planeirons A-2? If not how does the extra chrome that causes excessive chiping off the cutting edge in the CURRENT Stanley and Record irons affect the difference? Tony At 09:33 PM 11/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: Hock blades are as you say is A-2, if it is hardened to 56- 58 rc and a standardblade is hardened to the same rc there will be no difference except you will paythrough the nose for the HockTerry Bob Maulucci wrote: I have a beat up old Stanley and the original blade is absolutely great. Holds an edge really well (but is not as rust resistant like modern alloy blades). I also have a Record with a Hock A2. IMHO, its a toss up, but I would go for the Record and Hock. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Jason Swan Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Stanley plane Hi all, I have been informed that I can expect a new plane (and an A2 hock blade to fit) for my birthday in two weeks. I have heard many on the list mention that the older Stanley 9 1/2 is better than today's Stanley block plane. What I am wondering is what is the difference between the old 9 1/2 and the new "contractors" grade model 12-920? They both seemto have the same features (adjustable throat, micro blade depth adjustment, cant, etc.) down to the finger grooves on the side of the body. I have a friend who will true and groove the sole for me. So, why should I pay $40 one on Ebay as opposed to purchasing the new Stanley for$29.96 at Lowes? /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Tue Nov 6 13:14:12 2001 fA6JEB704937 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:14:11 -0600 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:14:12 -0600 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:13:26 -0800 rodmaker@troutchaser.com Subject: RE: So Long!!!! I really do sympathize with the sentiment you express here. I had Mr.Ackland's posts blocked for years, vowing not to bother myself with thenonsense. I still got most of his posts in a round about way, from thereplies from other people that contained his posts. I still ignored all ofthe threads TA started. Until Tony Young pointed out TA's tactics. He staysoff a while, until there is a new crop of new aspiring rodmakers, then hesigns back on to get a new audience. Unless someone takes the time to pointout the nonsense and untruths he is spreading there will be a lot of wouldbe rodmakers believing they can't ever make a rod unless they have apoweredbeveler, new Stanley blades are the best there is, the only glue they canuse is URAC, the Morgan Handmill is junk, epoxy will fail, I'm sure I can goon and on. Someone has to let them know there are other ways of doingthings, and a lot of people are successful doing it that way. Signing off isa good way to avoid all of this, but to better serve the list that helpedyou so much would be to contribute your experiences, what worked for you,whether or not you agree with TA, Tony Young, or anyone else. Then therodmakers trying to make their first rod can gather information, weigh theanswers and decide for themselves. There is no one right way to do anything,and we will not hear of the other ways unless people contribute to thislist.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:02 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: So Long!!!! All,sorry but I have to agree with Ron, I'm outta here. I really enjoyedthe info and stories we have shared over the years. Heck, I almost livedon here waiting for messages (Bob Nunley knows what I mean!) , I hated tobe away from the list more than a day, when I was deployed away fromhome thatwere waiting for me.But sadly, I have better things to dothan read what these posts have diminished into over the past littlewhile.I have made some good friends here and I hope that they drop me aline from time to time. I would be happy to talk about rods with anyone onthe list. Perhaps I'll check back later on and see how things are going.If anyone wishes to talk to me you can reach me atnsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thanks to everyone,Shawn Ron Elder wrote: Gentlemen: When I first joined the list over 3 years ago, there was a wealth of knowledge that was exchanged on the list. There was little cyberbickering and you almost always knew that a message coming in fromrodmakers contained value. I fear that is no longer the case. There areway more non rodmaking related posts (read personal replies) to issuesthat would be better dropped. It has degenerated into another RROFF I'mafraid. I would like to thank everyone for helping me get started. Without the knowledge and prodding from the list, I would never have arrived at therod building state I am at today. A big thank-you to Craig Naldrett &Tony Young. I will check back in after winter is over and see if things are any better. So long,....ron Ron ElderCalgary, AB Ron ElderTroutchaser Rod Co.Calgary, ABwww.troutchaser.com This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from ttalsma@macatawa.org Tue Nov 6 13:25:02 2001 fA6JP1705654 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:25:01 -0600 id ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:18:57 -0500 id V8NVMJFK; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:18:50 -0500 rodmaker@troutchaser.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: So Long!!!! What Darryl says is very good advice. Since I'm kinda close to it rightnow, guess how many posts of Terry's I've seen worthwhile askingpermission to add to the tips site? Zip, zero, nada. I usually readhis posts for a couple of days, when he actually seems to be prettycivil and then, when he starts going into curmudgeon mode, I just deletehis posts. I really doubt I'll ever have the opportunity of asking hispermission to use a tip, since his comments tend to be related to howeveryone is doing things the wrong way, but never coming up with a goodsolution to how they should be done other than "don't hand plane, use abeveller." Well, guess what Terry? A lot of people would RATHERhand-plane. Sometimes it's nice to get away from the technology thatsurrounds us and work the bamboo. After all, do we fish just to catchfish? I would say no. I tend to like to be on the stream, spend timewith my friends or family and just get away from everyday life. I thinkthe reasons for hand-planing are a lot like the reasons I fish, exceptthe things I like are being in the workshop, working with my hands, andgetting away from the busy life and slowing down a bit. Hayashida Darryl wrote: I really do sympathize with the sentiment you express here. I had Mr.Ackland's posts blocked for years, vowing not to bother myself with thenonsense. I still got most of his posts in a round about way, from thereplies from other people that contained his posts. I still ignored all ofthe threads TA started. Until Tony Young pointed out TA's tactics. Hestaysoff a while, until there is a new crop of new aspiring rodmakers, then hesigns back on to get a new audience. Unless someone takes the time topointout the nonsense and untruths he is spreading there will be a lot of wouldbe rodmakers believing they can't ever make a rod unless they have apoweredbeveler, new Stanley blades are the best there is, the only glue they canuse is URAC, the Morgan Handmill is junk, epoxy will fail, I'm sure I can goon and on. Someone has to let them know there are other ways of doingthings, and a lot of people are successful doing it that way. Signing off isa good way to avoid all of this, but to better serve the list that helpedyou so much would be to contribute your experiences, what worked foryou,whether or not you agree with TA, Tony Young, or anyone else. Then therodmakers trying to make their first rod can gather information, weigh theanswers and decide for themselves. There is no one right way to doanything,and we will not hear of the other ways unless people contribute to thislist.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:02 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: So Long!!!! All,sorry but I have to agree with Ron, I'm outta here. I really enjoyedthe info and stories we have shared over the years. Heck, I almost livedon here waiting for messages (Bob Nunley knows what I mean!) , I hatedtobe away from the list more than a day, when I was deployed away fromhome thatwere waiting for me.But sadly, I have better things to dothan read what these posts have diminished into over the past littlewhile.I have made some good friends here and I hope that they drop me aline from time to time. I would be happy to talk about rods with anyone onthe list. Perhaps I'll check back later on and see how things are going.If anyone wishes to talk to me you can reach me atnsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Thanks to everyone, Shawn Ron Elder wrote: Gentlemen: When I first joined the list over 3 years ago, there was a wealth of knowledge that was exchanged on the list. There was little cyberbickering and you almost always knew that a message coming in fromrodmakers contained value. I fear that is no longer the case. There areway more non rodmaking related posts (read personal replies) to issuesthat would be better dropped. It has degenerated into another RROFF I'mafraid. I would like to thank everyone for helping me get started. Without the knowledge and prodding from the list, I would never have arrived at therod building state I am at today. A big thank-you to Craig Naldrett &Tony Young. I will check back in after winter is over and see if things are any better. So long,....ron Ron ElderCalgary, AB Ron ElderTroutchaser Rod Co.Calgary, ABwww.troutchaser.com This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from jerryy@webtv.net Tue Nov 6 13:35:06 2001 Received: frommailsorter- 105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (mailsorter-105- (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id LAA20426; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:35:09 - ETAuAhUAnqyS1GBkSyu7JS1td0+jamT/Yq8CFQCDW3tChsSO/+cT6ZG7+k9exphAFA== From: jerryy@webtv.net (Jerry Young) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 be worth while Message-ID: Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I do agree with the feelingsof most of the people that have posted today. One thing is certain........I'vehung a black shroud over that metallurgy degree from Purdue. I don't want apiece of that. Jerry Young > from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Nov 6 14:14:39 fA6KEb714771 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 , "rod 'akers" Subject: Re: Flying with the Parrots Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:14:16 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 JNL123141@msn.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN ------ With all your knowledge, vast experience and foresight, somewhere along t=he line it would have been great to learn that its not so much what you s= aybut how you say it. It is virtually impossible to win an argument. Y= ou canwin a battle of words but you will also make an enemy. No one lik= es to betold they are wrong, and most especially, be proven wrong. Its = easier tojust make suggestions and state what you have learned and then = you don't Original Message ----- From: timothy troester Sent: Tuesday, November 06, the issue isn't information. the issue is behavior. poor behavior is never"right". timothy --- "T. Ackland" wrote: Regarding my contribution to the list,When ever I have rejoined the list I have never "runwith the pack" or"flew with the Parrots" is probably a betterdescription.Check out the archives and the big fights I got into and tell me who was right!I laughed at the 6 min Garrison heat treatment andsaid it was a typoeven though the same recipe was included in a knockoff book. Who heattreats to 6mins now?I suggested that Garrison tapers would not bepopular with modern FF?Who makes Garrison tapers now?I suggested that perhaps designing tapers with acomputer programme waswell......!Who now uses a computer for their tapers?I mentioned that a beveller was the only way to makerods into a seriousbusiness venture. Who is not now looking for abeveller to increasetheir output?I thought that the hand mill had a limited value.The guy that boastedhe could finish a set of blanks in 40 mins is nowbuying old planes one-bay!I thought that all the rodmaking books had aningredient missing. Lookat the interest in impregnating.This is not a personal endosement of myself justself defence.I really have no need to seek self gratification onthis list, I havealways said that rodmaking was easy and have alwayssaid so on the list. It all means more to some of you guys, it is ratherscary. I havedeleted 12 emails from one guy and it is only noon.Thats rodmaking foryou!Terry "Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com som= at its not so much what you say but how you sayit.&nbs= asier to just make suggestions and state what you have learned and then&n= ----- Original Message ----- From: timothytroester =Sent: Tuesday, November 06,2001 1= 'akers=Subject: Re: Flying with the Parr= timothy-= c= an= wa= = popula= sugges= tapers?&= bear!"...Rid=e, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -=- E.A.Poe__________________________________________________Do=You Yahoo!?Find a job, post yourresume.http://careers.yahoo.com= from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Nov 6 14:34:24 2001 fA6KYM720777 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:34:23 -0600 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:34:26 -0800 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: Waara node press FILETIME=[6D228960:01C16702] Charlie,Thanks for the pics on the Waara node press. Here is how it works:It is a horizontal toggle clamp in which the piston presses the strip aga=inst a notched backstop. There is an additional piece which slips over t=he backstop for smaller radius bends. The piston is adjustable (in and o=ut) and the head is narrow one way and by rotating 90 Deg., is about X2 w= There is a foot on the front end which elevates the press for a better vi=ewing angle making straightening a sit down job. The press should not be=attached to a bench or held in a vice. You can do straightening anywher= You can straighten during final planing or even a glued-up section. Its =the only thing I have used for the past 15 years. Bill "done good" with = John ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Waara node press OK, now I piqued. For the benefit of those of us who were not at thegathering, how does this item work? For fifty bucks, it would fit nicely=inmy Christmas wish list! However, I'm still a little foggy. But, then, Istill have yet to press a node any which way... Jason On 11/6/01 7:59 AM, "Charlie Curro" wrote: To honor John Long's respect for his friend & mentor Bill Waara Sr. (no= t to mention the fact that John always gives me beer at rodmakersgatherings), I put up a couple of pics on the Waara press. http://www.curro.net/waara/ cc Charlie,= a=n additional piece which slips over the backstop for smaller radius bends= final= =- Original Message ----- From: Jason Swan Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:53 AM Rodmakers Cc: John Long Subject: Re: Waara node press&nb= y which way...JasonOn 11/6/01 7:59 AM, "CharlieCurro" &l= respec= http://www.cur= from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Nov 6 14:55:33 2001 fA6KtW727018 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:55:32 -0600 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:55:35 -0800 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: I forgot one FILETIME=[61C34890:01C16705] M-D,Mine was 132 V.P.M.---right in the middle of the pack. I'm still waiting= whos=e rods I have not had custody of. I just communicated with Ron Barch and=my article will appear in the Jan.-Feb. '02 issue. Hope that answers yo=ur question. No more sneak peaks! ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: I forgot one John Long, What was the oscillation rate for your raw cane Grand Experiment rod, and difference? M-D Tom, I am not sure whether heat treating time affects the modulus. Milwardseemed skeptical. I did a few beam-bending measurements and found nomeasurable difference between the pre-treated and a moderately treatedsamples (except for stress creep and shrinkage). Jim U Hi Claude - Yes, I have built identical rods twisted and straight, bu= tnot a lot of them. Frankly, once I proved the point to myself, I ran out ofambition for the work involved. I got mixed results in static deflect= ion tests, with some spiral rods seeming to be stiffer, and others seemin= gto be treatment may be the factor, with more heat treatment making for closer results, bu= t I can't really prove that. Dynamically, there is always a difference, w= ith the spiral rod always being a significantly better caster. This shows up = if you do an oscillation rate test. One of the reasons I stopped building matched sets is that anyone casting both rods looked at the straight rod as i= fit had leprosy, when, in fact, it was a perfectly fine fishing rod. I love = to cast fly rods, but try not delude myself that casting and fishing are the same thing. M-  = Long,=What was the oscillation rate for your raw cane Grand Experiment=rod, andfor some of the others having been heat treated? Was therean=y realdifference?M-DFrom: "Jim Utzerath"<utzerath= whether he= skepti= mea=surable difference between the pre-treated and a moderatelytreated&g= U= Frank= fact= ; can't really prove that. Dynamically, there is always a difference, wit= sets= t= from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Nov 6 15:56:11 2001 fA6LuA714522 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:56:10 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:56:16 -0500 Subject: Re:So Long !!!! Well, here I go.:))Guys don't quit the list.Just walk away from it for a little bit. (a day or so)We need everyone here we can get.Old masters, intermediate makers, and beginners.:))Don't let Darth Vader turn you to the dark side. LOLJust pull out your light saber and hit delete.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Guys don't quit the list.Just walk away from it for a little bit. (a day or so)We need everyone here we can get.Old masters, intermediate makers, and beginners.:))Don't let Darth Vader turn you to the dark side. LOLJust pull out your light saber and hit delete.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Tue Nov 6 16:06:29 2001 fA6M6S717580 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:06:28 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:06:39 -0500 Subject: So Long!!!! Gentle people: I have not been on this list for a long amount of time but from time to timelist members will become enraged over a member's behavior and say so long.It always puzzles me when someone is willing to give up the apple because heis unwilling to cut out the small bad part. When I joined this list it waswith the intent to learn and associate with like kind, and having done thisI have taken from the list what I felt was important. It saddens me to seemembers leave because this diminishes knowledge and friendship of this list. Having said this, I would like to share what my mentor said to me, " I havepassed on this knowledge to you and you now have the responsibility ofpassing this on to someone else". This brings me to my point, when we take from this list and most do, don't we have a responsibility to stay with thelist and make it better and educate one another about this craft? If thereis miss information or off list subjects shouldn't it be point out? Pickingup your toys and storming home will not make you a better rod maker butmaking this list better will. If you want a wealth of knowledge, stay andcontribute and fulfill your responsibility. I have been at rod making for many moons and there isn't a day that I don'tlearn something from somebody and I hope they learn from me. Just my twocents, take care, Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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from piscator@macatawa.org Tue Nov 6 16:42:40 2001 fA6Mgd727793 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:42:39 -0600 Subject: Re: So Long!!!! Ron, I've done the same thing. But really, it's like not going to a party at thePlayboy Mansion because you didn't agree with Hefner. Don't talk to theguy. There are plenty of more entertaining activities! Some people just have to be right, no matter what the situation. Justunderstand that we are all different, you're not going to like or be liked back on near Christmas, wouldn't want to miss Harry's Christmas letter orwhat cool thing Bogart got in his stocking (as opposed to the worthlessthing in his . . . OOPS!) We're all just folks. Brian from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Nov 6 17:18:24 2001 fA6NIO706154 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:18:24 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:18:30 -0500 Subject: Motor plan I thought you guys might like to see this. It might be good for beginners or people who have motors on their dip =tubes that only go in one direction.(this might be a solution)I had to come up with a way to reverse a motor that only went in one =direction.My solution was to make a clutch system out of a wooden spool, piece of =threaded rod ,some nuts & washers.Here is a link to a picture: The rod is lowered in to the tank by releasing the nuts to the side of =the wooden spool allowing it to spin freely, when the nuts are tightened =the spool is locked and the drive is engaged.Very simple and works great.:))I just thought it might help some to create a dip tank system.:))Nothing complicated here.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} I thought you guys might like to see this. It might be good for beginners or people who have motors on their = I had to come up with a way to reverse a motor that only went in = direction. = of threaded rod ,some nuts & washers.Here is a link to a picture:www.homestead.= The rod is lowered in to the tank by releasing the nuts to the side = wooden spool allowing it to spin freely, when the nuts are tightened the = is locked and the drive is engaged.Very simple and works great.:))I just thought it might help some to create a dip tank =system.:))Nothing complicated here.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Nov 6 17:31:43 2001 fA6NVg709025 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:31:42 -0600 (authenticated) for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:31:34 -0800 Subject: New question -- varnish drying Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Nov 6 17:46:48 2001 fA6Nkl711292 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:46:47 -0600 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's "contributions" Shawn,thanks for the support but you are not doing yourself any favours on thelist.What is getting up their nose is that I happened to have made decisionsseveral years agoand we had big fights on rodmakers over it. Now it is the very same guysthat put me down beveller.Terry Shawn Pineo wrote: I'm sure I'll hear about this, but.... I must say although Terry's mannerismscanbe annoying at times, he is very knowledgeable in various things.He has been at this awhile and brings some good points to the list, usuallywhentopics have degraded into discussing fungi types he will kick up a fuss andstart acontroversial rod making thread.He may not seem to add anything but ifyou thinkabout it he has spurred on some interesting conversations and some BIGflame warstoo.I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but everyone is entitledtotheir opinion, Terry included.In my opinion, if you don't like what he is saying just ignore or delete it,there are far worse offenders on this list than Terry and his pot stirringways.BTW, you really shouldn't judge him by his rantings on the list, talk to themanone on one and you may find someone completely different. He was veryhelpful backwhen I was first starting out, there were very few Canadian builders and hewas theclosest builder to my area, it was nice to be able to talk to him (through email). Iknow of a couple of other Canadians here on the list who would agree, andseveralothers he has offered his help to.Just my opinion,ShawnRick wrote: Folks, I've tried to be more than civil and have been patient beyond mynormal limits. But I must now speak out. I am attempting to ascertainjust what Terry A.'s intent is in his constant negative attitude andreplies to inquiries to the list. He claims to have the only workabletaper beveler, but he's not talking. He has the perfect impregnant formass marketing rods, but again - top secret. If he has accomplishedthese feats, good for him! He will do well in his new fulltime career.He is certainly not expected to reveal trade secrets which willadversely affect his future business. With that said, this list is for SUPPORTING each others asrodmakers. I do not expect him to share his experiences with us if itcosts him. But - I see no reason for him to constantly try to denigratethe efforts of others, confuse the issues at hand, and dissuadehobbyists from inexpensive though admittedly laborious methods otherthan to generally try to lessen the quality and value of the content ofthe list. To Terry, I say, "Contribute something worthwhile to the list orleave it. Your current actions and correspondence are hypocritical andgo against the grain of your very own words. If this list is worthlessand spreads misinformation, why do you attend to it? If you are intenton straightening us out, show us what you've got that proves the rest ofus wrong. If you are in the situation which you claim, i.e. have plentyof time, know all the correct methods, and have the appropriatemachinery, why don't you let US continue to provide our contribution tothe growth in interest in bamboo rods, and YOU can profit from it byselling well made, moderately costed, low maintenance rods to thatinterested public. In the meantime BUGGER OFF!" To Mike, please consider this a plea to remove Mr. Ackland from thelist. I think a perusal of his 'contributions' over the last few weekswill attest to the negative impact he makes on this list. I haveconsidered taking a 'vacation' from the list if he continues in thismanner and I fear that this type of action is his real intent. Rick C. P.S. Terry, don't reply directly to me. I will not read anything youhave to say. You have proven that your conversations are unilateral andI will not be drawn into such wastes of time. from rmoon@ida.net Tue Nov 6 17:48:14 2001 fA6NmD711644 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:48:13 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying HarryIf you used PU I would say that it is hard enough to go now. If you used spar, I'd wait your week. Spar will surface dry before the under part has polymerized, and it will stay soft longer.Ralph -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium > from rmoon@ida.net Tue fA6NvC713762 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 2001 23:57:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ida.net) 16:55:23 -0700 From: "Ralph W. Moon" User-Agent:Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Subject: power fibers. Content-Type: Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ihave been a list member for a lot of years==almost from the beginning, but idon't ever recall a discussion about the depth of power fibers when selectingbamboo. Garrison had his say about it, but it really does not even begin toaddress the issue. The clearest statement is from George Maurer, who saidthat that the depth of power fibers one should select should be 1/2 thediameter of the female ferrule ID. I am not sure that i would agree, because ihave always felt that the pith served a very important function of dampeningvibrations and cushioning the shear effect when the rod is bending. Placing the transition of fiber/pith to full fiber at the ferrule point appears to me to present a weakness that manifests itself with fractures at the base of the ferrule. Just curious as to what others might think. Ralph -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium > from flyfish@defnet.comTue Nov 6 17:58:17 2001 Received: from wam.defnet.com (wam.defnet.com 2001 18:58:22 -0500 Message-ID:From: "Tony Miller" flyfish@defnet.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This Harry, do you have a drying cabinet? I use spar and a drying cabinet. Rodsare dry fast. I've polished them within 48 hours Rods are dry in 24 hours Ifyou don't use a dryer, I would not polish that rod for at least a = week. orship it:)) just a suggestion but odds are it is still drying (if air dried naturally,no cabinet) Tony Miller www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html ------ BODY {BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT } Harry, doyou have a drying cabinet? I use spar and a dryingcabinet. Rods are dry fast. I've polished themwithin 48 hours Rods are dry in 24 hours If you ship it:)) just a suggestion but odds are it is still drying (if airdried naturally, no = cabinet) Tony Miller www.homestead.com/= bambooshop/home.html - caneman@clnk.com Tue Nov 6 18:02:42 2001 Received: from Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:27:38 -0600 Message-ID:From: "Bob Nunley" References:Subject: Re: Motor plan caneman@clnk.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This Another thing that works for that is to put two locking collars on = eitherside of your shaft, with a set of washers against the spool and = springsbetween the spool and collars. Push the collars against the = springs enoughthat the spool will unreel when you pull on the string, = but not clutch whenyou're lifting a rod section. This way, I don't = ever have to reach to the topof the enclosure where my motor is and it = beats the hell out of taking thatdamn toothpick out from between the = motor shaft and the "Keyway" onthe bore of the spool (Just a little = hole a bit smaller than the toothpick) soI can let the section down! = Yep, that was what I did before this! *S* Hey, itworked for 12 years! later, Bob R.L. Nunley, Rodmaker Custom Split Cane November 06, 2001 5:19 PM Subject: Motor plan I thought you guys mightlike to see this. For some this may be old hat.:)) It might be good forbeginners or people who have motors on their dip = tubes that only go in onedirection.(this might be a solution) I had to come up with a way to reverse amotor that only went in one = direction. My solution was to make a clutchsystem out of a wooden spool, piece = of threaded rod ,some nuts &washers. Here is a link to a picture: the tank by releasing the nuts to the side of = the wooden spool allowing it tospin freely, when the nuts are tightened = the spool is locked and the drive isengaged. Very simple and works great.:)) I just thought it might help some tocreate a dip tank system.:)) Nothing complicated here.:)) Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html ------ BODY {BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT } collars on either side of your shaft, with a set of washers against the = R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com ----- Original Message ----- thought you guys might like to see this. For some this may beold hat.:)) It might be good for beginners or people who have might be a = solution) I had to come up with a way to reverse a rod ,some nuts & washers. Here is a link to a spool is locked and the drive is engaged. Very simple and worksgreat.:)) I just thought it might help some to create a dip tank =system.:)) Nothing complicated here.:)) TonyMiller www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html ------ Tue Nov 6 18:03:13 2001 Received: from wam.defnet.com (wam.defnet.com 2001 19:03:19 -0500 Message-ID:From: "Tony Miller" flyfish@defnet.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This anyone wants a drawing of the motor set up just let me know and I'll = send itto you via email. Tony Miller www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html - -- BODY {BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT } If anyone you via email. Tony Miller www.homestead.com/= bambooshop/home.html - tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 18:10:26 2001 Received: from fA70AP717429 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 Received: from [24.4.255.50] by web11203.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 06 Nov timothy troester Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's stpete@netten.net, "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN again, it is your behavior notyour genius. timothy --- "T. Ackland" wrote: Shawn,thanks for the support but you are not doingyourself any favours on the list.What is getting up their nose is that I happened tohave made decisions several years agoand we had big fights on rodmakers over it. Now itis the very same guys that put me down babies for not divulging my beveller.Terry Shawn Pineo wrote: I'm sure I'll hear about this, but.... I must say although Terry's mannerisms can be annoying at times, he is very knowledgeable in various things. He has been at this awhile and brings some good points to the list, usually when topics have degraded into discussing fungi types he will kick up a fuss and start a controversial rod making thread.He may not seem to add anything but if you think about it he has spurred on some interesting conversations and some BIG flame wars too.I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, Terry included.In my opinion, if you don't like what he is saying just ignore or delete it, there are far worse offenders on this list than Terry and his pot stirring ways. BTW, you really shouldn't judge him by his rantings on the list, talk to the man one on one and you may find someone completely different. He was very helpful back when I was first starting out, there were very few Canadian builders and he was the closest builder to my area, it was nice to be able to talk to him (through e mail). I know of a couple of other Canadians here on the list who would agree, and several others he has offered his help to.Just my opinion, Shawn Rick wrote: Folks, I've tried to be more than civil and have been patient beyond my normal limits. But I must now speak out. I am attempting to ascertain just what Terry A.'s intent is in his constant negative attitude and replies to inquiries to the list. He claims to have the only workable taper beveler, but he's not talking. He has the perfect impregnant for mass marketing rods, but again - top secret. If he has accomplished these feats, good for him! He will do well in his new fulltime career. He is certainly not expected to reveal trade secrets which will adversely affect his future business. With that said, this list is for SUPPORTING each others as rodmakers. I do not expect him to share his experiences with us if it costs him. But - I see no reason for him to constantly try to denigrate the efforts of others, confuse the issues at hand, and dissuade hobbyists from inexpensive though admittedly laborious methods other than to generally try to lessen the quality and value of the content of the list. To Terry, I say, "Contribute something worthwhile to the list or leave it. Your current actions and correspondence are hypocritical and go against the grain of your very own words. If this list is worthless and spreads misinformation, why do you attend to it? If you are intent on straightening us out, show us what you've got that proves the rest of us wrong. If you are in the situation which you claim, i.e. have plenty of time, know all the correct methods, and have the appropriate machinery, why don't you let US continue to provide our contribution to the growth in interest in bamboo rods, and YOU can profit from it by selling well made, moderately costed, low maintenance rods to that interested public. In the meantime BUGGER OFF!" To Mike, please consider this a plea to remove Mr. Ackland from the list. I think a perusal of his 'contributions' over the last few weeks will attest to the negative impact he makes on this list. I have considered taking a 'vacation' from the list if he continues in this manner and I fear that this type of action is his real intent. Rick C. P.S. Terry, don't reply directly to me. I will not read anything you have to say. You have proven that your conversations are unilateral and I will not be drawn into such wastes of time. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 18:28:16 2001 fA70SG721237 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:28:16 -0600 ([209.178.134.118] helo=g2t8c9) id 161GZr-0006v0-00; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:28:23 -0800 Subject: Re: power fibers. Ralph, What size rods are we talking about here? I tend think that the pith wouldcan of break down and since it is at the center it provided little use. Ithink I got this from Marinaro "In the Ring...". And how about taking outall the pith by hollow building? of course dimension would have to change toaccount for hollowing. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: power fibers. I have been a list member for a lot of years==almost from thebeginning, but i don't ever recall a discussion about the depth of powerfibers when selecting bamboo. Garrison had his say about it, but itreally does not even begin to address the issue. The clearest statementis from George Maurer, who said that that the depth of power fibers oneshould select should be 1/2 the diameter of the female ferrule ID. I amnot sure that i would agree, because i have always felt that the pithserved a very important function of dampening vibrations and cushioningthe shear effect when the rod is bending. Placing the transition offiber/pith to full fiber at the ferrule point appears to me to present aweakness that manifests itself with fractures at the base of theferrule. Just curious as to what others might think.Ralph --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from rmoon@ida.net Tue Nov 6 18:42:53 2001 fA70gq724489 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:42:52 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: power fibers. Adam, construction of cut rodis light enough and if the rod is balanced weight is virtually negligible. why rod much, and I can tell you deformation is destructive of a good cast Adam Vigil wrote: Ralph,What size rods are we talking about here? Itend think that the pith wouldcan of break down and since it is at thecenter it provided little use. Ithink I got this from Marinaro "In theRing...". And how about taking outall the pith by hollow building? ofcourse dimension would have to change toaccount forhollowing.Adam --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium . -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 18:43:59 2001 fA70hw724798 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:43:58 -0600 ([209.178.134.118] helo=g2t8c9) id 161Gox-0000xQ-00; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:44:00 -0800 Subject: Re: Motor plan I am a simple man. I use a clear acrylic drain tube. No motor, wire, =spools no nuttin!. Drain varnish, cover openings with a cloth. With a =couple of clear tubes and the drains set for super slow I go in for =dinner and watch some T.V.. No dust, no runs and if you want to get =fancy a set of fluorescent lights dry it right up. I always wonder why you would pull a perfectly good wet varnish blank =out into the environment were all the shop gremlins are? Letting the =blanks sit in the clear tube I can see if any runs occurs, bubbles or =whatever. Letting it dry in its tube is like keeping it in a "force =field" Acrylic tube from a plastic supplier $7 Drain from home depot $4, piece =of mind...priceless Adam Vigil (this idea is original to D. Hayashida, thanks Darryl) Subject: Re: Motor plan Another thing that works for that is to put two locking collars on =either side of your shaft, with a set of washers against the spool and =springs between the spool and collars. Push the collars against the =springs enough that the spool will unreel when you pull on the string, =but not clutch when you're lifting a rod section. This way, I don't =ever have to reach to the top of the enclosure where my motor is and it =beats the hell out of taking that damn toothpick out from between the =motor shaft and the "Keyway" on the bore of the spool (Just a little =hole a bit smaller than the toothpick) so I can let the section down! =Yep, that was what I did before this! *S* Hey, it worked for 12 years! later,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com Subject: Motor plan I thought you guys might like to see this. It might be good for beginners or people who have motors on their =dip tubes that only go in one direction.(this might be a solution)I had to come up with a way to reverse a motor that only went in one =direction.My solution was to make a clutch system out of a wooden spool, piece =of threaded rod ,some nuts & washers.Here is a link to a picture: The rod is lowered in to the tank by releasing the nuts to the side =of the wooden spool allowing it to spin freely, when the nuts are =tightened the spool is locked and the drive is engaged.Very simple and works great.:))I just thought it might help some to create a dip tank system.:))Nothing complicated here.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no- repeat;COLOR: =#000000; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT; FONT-SIZE: 12pt} I am a simple man. I use a clear = tube. No motor, wire, spools no nuttin!. Drain varnish, cover openings = cloth. With a couple of clear tubes and the drains set for super slow I = set of fluorescent lights dry it right up. I always wonder why you would pull a = wet varnish blank out into the environment were all the shop gremlins = Letting the blanks sit in the clear tube I can see if any runs occurs, = field" Acrylic tube from a plastic supplier $7= Adam Vigil (this idea is original to D. Hayashida, = Darryl)----- Original Message ----- Bob =Nunley Sent: Tuesday, November 06, = PMSubject: Re: Motor plan Another thing that works for that is to put two = collars on either side of your shaft, with a set of washers against = springs enough that the spool will unreel when you pull on the string, = have to reach to the top of the enclosure where my motor is and it = hell out of taking that damn toothpick out from between the motor = years! later,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com ----- Original Message ----- = Sent: Tuesday, November 06, = PMSubject: Motor plan I thought you guys might like to see this. It might be good for beginners or people who have motors on = solution)I had to come up with a way to reverse a motor that only went = direction.My solution was to make a clutch system out of a = piece of threaded rod ,some nuts & washers.Here is a link to a picture:www.homestead.= The rod is lowered in to the tank by releasing the nuts to the = the wooden spool allowing it to spin freely, when the nuts are = spool is locked and the drive is engaged.Very simple and works great.:))I just thought it might help some to create a dip tank =system.:))Nothing complicated here.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from cw@vanion.com Tue Nov 6 18:59:32 2001 fA70xV728331 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:59:31 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:04:20 -0700 Subject: RE motor plan I agree with Adam. I pull the rod section from the clear varnish tube, =up into a clear tube directly above, cap it and have minimal dust as it =dries for 24hr. I agree with Adam. I pull the rod = the clear varnish tube, up into a clear tube directly above, cap it and = minimal dust as it dries for 24hr. from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Nov 6 19:04:07 2001 fA7146729492 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:04:06 -0600 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:04:10 -0800 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying FILETIME=[1B92E8D0:01C16728] Harry,I think if you try to polish to soon, the finish will peel and roll off i=n chunks. (Been there done that). It has to firm up below the surface al=so. I did one rod several coats without thinning and it took 4-6 weeks b=efore hardening (P.U.). I don't know what is actually going on under the=surface-it must a curing of some type because how could it be "drying"? John ----- Original Message ----- Subject: New question -- varnish drying Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- Harry, I think if you try to polish to soon, the finish will peel and roll o= John= Tuesday= New q=uestion -- varnish drying f=irst the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become= f Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to= already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit= Harr= http://www.cane= Our = from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 19:04:19 2001 fA714I729572 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:04:18 -0600 ([209.178.134.118] helo=g2t8c9) id 161H8i-0007d4-00; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 17:04:24 -0800 Subject: Re: power fibers. Ralph, Just talking out loud here, I am undecided at best about hollow building =but I am going to give it a go. I have some of the best rodmakers, you =know who you are, willing to give me tips on how to do it. So I am sure =when I do make a hollow rod I will at least be doing it right. Now what =I have noticed is that when I was handling an 8.5' 5 wt that was hollow =built all the way up into the tips the swing weight and the weight in =the hand was much less then that of the 8' 5wt I hand built. Now pith was put there by the good lord but then again so was enamel. =And I believe that its function was to transport water. The outer =powerfibres also transport water but not a well as the inner fibers. But =does the pith really contribute to the casting of a rod? And from what I understand about hollow building if damns are left =throughout the blank the ovoid deformation of the blank is minimized. I =have not heard if fluting completely through the cane causes oval =deformation or not. Winstons and Powells rods held up pretty well from =what I understand. So hollow building or solid building I guess I will make a few and =decide. But the advantages of Pith? I still need to think about that =one. Adam Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 4:41 PMSubject: Re: power fibers. I may tromp on a lot of toes here. I do not in any way like =hollowbuilt rods. The primary reason is that we are going back to a =hollow tubular construction and a hollow tube deforms significantly when =bent. Second, oscillation of the rod is increased. Thirdly its purpose =is dubious at best. If to cut weight in a rod, who really cares? =Bamboo in the preferred sizes of rod is light enough and if the rod is =balanced weight is virtually negligible. Strength? It has to be weaker =with less gluing surface. I stated in my first missive that the pith does serve a function. =Else why did the Creator make bamboo with pith? The cushion of pith =allows the rod to bend, yet retain its structural integrity. That is it =does deform as much, and I can tell you deformation is destructive of a =good cast Adam Vigil wrote: Ralph,What size rods are we talking about here? I tend think that the =pith wouldcan of break down and since it is at the center it provided =little use. Ithink I got this from Marinaro "In the Ring...". And how =about taking outall the pith by hollow building? of course dimension =would have to change toaccount for hollowing.Adam--http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium\. http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium Ralph, Just talking out loud here, I am = about hollow building but I am going to give it a go. I have some of the = rodmakers, you know who you are, willing to give me tips on how to do = am sure when I do make a hollow rod I will at least be doing it right. = I have noticed is that when I was handling an 8.5' 5 wt that was hollow = all the way up into the tips the swing weight and the weight in the hand = much less then that of the 8' 5wt I hand built. Now pith was put there by the good lord= water. The outer powerfibres also transport water but not a well as the = rod? And from what I understand abouthollow = damns are left throughout the blank the ovoid deformation of the blank = minimized. I have not heard if fluting completely through the cane = deformation or not. Winstons and Powells rods held up pretty well from = understand. So hollow building or solid building I = I will make a few and decide. But the advantages of Pith? I still need = about that one. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Ralph W. =Moon Cc: Rodmakers Sent: Tuesday, November 06, = PMSubject: Re: power =fibers. back to a hollow tubular construction and a hollow tube deforms = to be weaker with less gluing surface.I stated in my first = you deformation is destructive of a good castAdam Vigil =wrote:Ralph,What size rods are wetalking =about here? I tend think that the pith wouldcan of break down and =since it is at the center it provided little use. Ithink I got this = from Marinaro "In the Ring...". And how about taking outall the pith = toaccount for hollowing.Adam--http://www.ida.net/user= http://www.ida.net/user=s/rmoon/symposium from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Nov 6 19:14:04 2001 fA71E3702032 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:14:03 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:14:08 -0500 Subject: Re:Motor Plan ChadNo can do here :))I use varnish and it has to go into a drying cabinet after.If I let it dry normally it would take a week for my varnish to dry.Now if you are using poly that would be fine.when I go from tube to cabinet I don't get dust.Much like your tube.But I have found that most dust in finishes is not caused by dust in the =air,but is caused by dust left on the rod from the sanding process.Most makers will just wipe the blank down with mineral spirits ,but that =won't do it.There is micro dust still left on the rod.took me along time to figure that one out.:))Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} ChadNo can do here :))I use varnish and it has to go into a drying cabinet after. dry.Now if you are using poly that would be fine. Much like your tube.But I have found that most dust in finishes is not caused by dust = air,but is caused by dust left on the rod from the sanding =process.Most makers will just wipe the blank down with mineral spirits ,but = won't do it.There is micro dust still left on the rod.took me along time to figure that one out.:))Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jfoster@sunset.net Tue Nov 6 19:39:22 2001 fA71dL707312 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:39:21 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:39:25 -0800 Subject: TA That's enough Terry If you don't like the list or it's users then go away..for good. no one here needs your kind of advice.. furthermore other than to tweak you back, no one gives a crap about your beveler or your rods..i'd probably not be going out on a limb to say that JW's one pass beveler will outperform your secret special.. LISTUSERS (tony) part of the destruction terry does is because he is goaded into it. Or should i say allowed to continue on.. silence would be a good response. When you see TA on the list just think (to paraphrase Brian) concrete aBUTment.. don't keep running your head into it.. it just gives him more time for his contrary opinions.. Terry if you know so much: write a book, if you're capable, and let us take pot shots at you and your all-knowing wonderfulness. jerry from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Nov 6 19:40:09 2001 fA71e8707549 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:40:09 -0600 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:40:12 -0800 Subject: Re: power fibers. FILETIME=[2447D080:01C1672D] Adam,I have built a few fluted rods and I think they are a little stiffer than=the other types. Mine (butts) are fluted all the way down except at the=ferrule. I would leave it solid about 1/2" below the female ferrule the=n taper to the max. hollowed depth. I have really put mine thru the mill=fishing them. Can't tell you if they become oval or not but you really = Also, don't wrap your guides too tight! I can't tell you what wall thick=ness to go to at the bottom of the flute-I always just listen to my gut f=eelings but my next one I intend to go to 0.060". I use Urac 185 glue. =Good luck! John ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers. Ralph, Just talking out loud here, I am undecided at best about hollow building =but I am going to give it a go. I have some of the best rodmakers, you kn=ow who you are, willing to give me tips on how to do it. So I am sure whe=n I do make a hollow rod I will at least be doing it right. Now what I ha=ve noticed is that when I was handling an 8.5' 5 wt that was hollow built=all the way up into the tips the swing weight and the weight in the hand=was much less then that of the 8' 5wt I hand built. Now pith was put there by the good lord but then again so was enamel. And=I believe that its function was to transport water. The outer powerfibre=s also transport water but not a well as the inner fibers. But does the p=ith really contribute to the casting of a rod? And from what I understand about hollow building if damns are left throug=hout the blank the ovoid deformation of the blank is minimized. I have no=t heard if fluting completely through the cane causes oval deformation or=not. Winstons and Powells rods held up pretty well from what I understan=d. So hollow building or solid building I guess I will make a few and decid=e. But the advantages of Pith? I still need to think about that one. Adam Subject: Re: power fibers. I may tromp on a lot of toes here. I do not in any way like hollowbuilt =rods. The primary reason is that we are going back to a hollow tubular c=onstruction and a hollow tube deforms significantly when bent. Second, o=scillation of the rod is increased. Thirdly its purpose is dubious at be=st. If to cut weight in a rod, who really cares? Bamboo in the preferre=d sizes of rod is light enough and if the rod is balanced weight is virtu=ally negligible. Strength? It has to be weaker with less gluing surface=\. I stated in my first missive that the pith does serve a function. Else w=hy did the Creator make bamboo with pith? The cushion of pith allows the=rod to bend, yet retain its structural integrity. That is it does defor=m as much, and I can tell you deformation is destructive of a good cast Adam Vigil wrote: Ralph,What size rods are we talking about here? I tend think that the pit=h wouldcan of break down and since it is at the center it provided littl=e use. Ithink I got this from Marinaro "In the Ring...". And how about ta=king outall the pith by hollow building? of course dimension would have t=o change toaccount for hollowing.Adam--http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium\. http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium Adam, I have built a few flute= what wall thickness to go to at the bottom of the flute-I always just li= Fro=m: Adam Vigil Sent:Tues=day, November 06, 2001 8:06 PM T=o: Ralph W. Moon Cc:Rod=makers Subject: Re: powerfi= talki=ng out loud here, I am undecided at best about hollow building but I am g=oing to give it a go. I have some of the best rodmakers, you know who you=are, willing to give me tips on how to do it. So I am sure when I do mak=e a hollow rod I will at least be doing it right. Now what I have noticed=is that when I was handling an 8.5' 5 wt that was hollow built all the w=ay up into the tips the swing weight and the weight in the hand was much =less then that of the 8' 5wt I hand built. Now pith was put there by the goodlord= o transport water. The outer powerfibres also transport water but not a w=ell as the inner fibers. But does the pith really contribute to the casti= ughout the blank the ovoid deformation of the blank is minimized. I have =not heard if fluting completely through the cane causes oval deformation =or not. Winstons and Powells rods held up pretty well from what I underst= Ralph W. Moon Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 4:41PM Subject: Re: powerfibers. Adam, I may tromp on a lot of toes here. we are going back to a hollow tubular construction and a hollow tube def= d is light enough and if the rod is balanced weight is virtually negligib= of= That is it does deform as much, and I can tell you deformation is destruc=tive of a good castAdam Vigil wrote: Ralph=,What size rods are we talking about here? I tend think that the =pith wouldcan of break down and since it is at the center it provide=d little use. Ithink I got this from Marinaro "In the Ring...". And h=ow about taking outall the pith by hollow building? of course dimensi=on would have to change toaccount forhollowing.Adam --http:/=/www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium.-- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/sy=mposium from dickay@alltel.net Tue Nov 6 19:42:48 2001 fA71gl708380 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:42:47 -0600 srv.alltel.net Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:42:52 -0600 Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's "contributions" I think that Terry's blood pressure is up again and he needs to take hismedicine and bring it down.Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Terry Ackland's "contributions" Folks, I've tried to be more than civil and have been patient beyond mynormal limits. But I must now speak out. I am attempting to ascertainjust what Terry A.'s intent is in his constant negative attitude andreplies to inquiries to the list. He claims to have the only workabletaper beveler, but he's not talking. He has the perfect impregnant formass marketing rods, but again - top secret. If he has accomplishedthese feats, good for him! He will do well in his new fulltime career.He is certainly not expected to reveal trade secrets which willadversely affect his future business. With that said, this list is for SUPPORTING each others asrodmakers. I do not expect him to share his experiences with us if itcosts him. But - I see no reason for him to constantly try to denigratethe efforts of others, confuse the issues at hand, and dissuadehobbyists from inexpensive though admittedly laborious methods otherthan to generally try to lessen the quality and value of the content ofthe list. To Terry, I say, "Contribute something worthwhile to the list orleave it. Your current actions and correspondence are hypocritical andgo against the grain of your very own words. If this list is worthlessand spreads misinformation, why do you attend to it? If you are intenton straightening us out, show us what you've got that proves the rest ofus wrong. If you are in the situation which you claim, i.e. have plentyof time, know all the correct methods, and have the appropriatemachinery, why don't you let US continue to provide our contribution tothe growth in interest in bamboo rods, and YOU can profit from it byselling well made, moderately costed, low maintenance rods to thatinterested public. In the meantime BUGGER OFF!" To Mike, please consider this a plea to remove Mr. Ackland from thelist. I think a perusal of his 'contributions' over the last few weekswill attest to the negative impact he makes on this list. I haveconsidered taking a 'vacation' from the list if he continues in thismanner and I fear that this type of action is his real intent. Rick C. P.S. Terry, don't reply directly to me. I will not read anything youhave to say. You have proven that your conversations are unilateral andI will not be drawn into such wastes of time. from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Nov 6 19:47:34 2001 fA71lY709613 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:47:34 -0600 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 17:47:37 -0800 , "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: Motor plan FILETIME=[2D9635E0:01C1672E] What do you use for a valve, and what and how do you let your varnish dra=in into? Do you re-use your varnish? How do you get the inside of your =wet tube dust free? See, you started something! ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Motor plan I am a simple man. I use a clear acrylic drain tube. No motor, wire, spoo=ls no nuttin!. Drain varnish, cover openings with a cloth. With a couple =of clear tubes and the drains set for super slow I go in for dinner and w=atch some T.V.. No dust, no runs and if you want to get fancy a set of fl=uorescent lights dry it right up. I always wonder why you would pull a perfectly good wet varnish blank out=into the environment were all the shop gremlins are? Letting the blanks =sit in the clear tube I can see if any runs occurs, bubbles or whatever. =Letting it dry in its tube is like keeping it in a "force field" Acrylic tube from a plastic supplier $7 Drain from home depot $4, piece o=f mind...priceless Adam Vigil (this idea is original to D. Hayashida, thanks Darryl) Subject: Re: Motor plan Another thing that works for that is to put two locking collars on either=side of your shaft, with a set of washers against the spool and springs =between the spool and collars. Push the collars against the springs enou=gh that the spool will unreel when you pull on the string, but not clutch=when you're lifting a rod section. This way, I don't ever have to reac=h to the top of the enclosure where my motor is and it beats the hell out=of taking that damn toothpick out from between the motor shaft and the "=Keyway" on the bore of the spool (Just a little hole a bit smaller than t=he toothpick) so I can let the section down! Yep, that was what I did be=fore this! *S* Hey, it worked for 12 years! later,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com/ Subject: Motor plan I thought you guys might like to see this. It might be good for beginners or people who have motors on their dip tub=es that only go in one direction.(this might be a solution)I had to come up with a way to reverse a motor that only went in one dire=ction.My solution was to make a clutch system out of a wooden spool, piece of t=hreaded rod ,some nuts & washers.Here is a link to a picture: The rod is lowered in to the tank by releasing the nuts to the side of th=e wooden spool allowing it to spin freely, when the nuts are tightened th=e spool is locked and the drive is engaged.Very simple and works great.:))I just thought it might help some to create a dip tank system.:))Nothing complicated here.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html What do you use for a valve, andwhat&nbs= John&n= rodmakers=@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: R= BACKGROUND-P=OSITION: left top; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAM=ILY: Garamond MT; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } I am a simple man.I use=a clear acrylic drain tube. No motor, wire, spools no nuttin!. Drain var=nish, cover openings with a cloth. With a couple of clear tubes and the d=rains set for super slow I go in for dinner and watch some T.V.. No dust,=no runs and if you want to get fancy a set of fluorescent lights dry it = t into the environment were all the shop gremlins are? Letting the blanks=sit in the clear tube I can see if any runs occurs, bubbles or whatever.= stl.edu Sent:Tuesday, =November 06, 2001 3:54 PM Subjec=t: Re: Motor plan Another t=hing that works for that is to put two locking collars on either side of =your shaft, with a set of washers against the spool and springs between t= hat the spool will unreel when you pull on the string, but not clutch whe= o reach to the top of the enclosure where my motor is and it beats the he=ll out of taking that damn toothpick out from between the motor shaft and= later, BobR.L. Nunl= Sent: Tuesday, November06,=2001 5:19 PM Subject:Motor=plan I thought you guys might like to seethi=s. For some this may be old hat.:)) It might be goo=d for beginners or people who have motors on their dip tubes that only go= e up with a way to reverse a motor that only went in one direction.=My solution was to make a clutch system out of a piece of threaded rod ,some nuts & washers. Here is a lin=k to a picture: www.homestead.com/bambooshop/projects.htmlThe rod is lowered in to the tank by releasing the nuts to the side of =the wooden spool allowing it to spin freely, when the nuts are tightened =the spool is locked and the drive is engaged. Very simple and =works great.:)) I just thought it might help some to create a =dip tank system.:)) Nothing complicated here.:))To=ny Miller www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from cw@vanion.com Tue Nov 6 20:09:32 2001 fA729V714142 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:09:31 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:14:21 -0700 Subject: Node Press handle on sale now for $8.84. #52-152-6S, 300# holding cap. their = Supply has the cam handle on sale now for $8.84. #52-152-6S, 300# = cap. from oandc@email.msn.com Tue Nov 6 20:09:56 2001 fA729t714286 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:09:55 -0600 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:09:12 -0800 Subject: Re:Motor Plan FILETIME=[3180FD40:01C16731] Interesting point Tony. How, pray tell, do you get rid of the micro =dust. Wayne Subject: Re:Motor Plan ChadNo can do here :))I use varnish and it has to go into a drying cabinet after.If I let it dry normally it would take a week for my varnish to dry. ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} Interesting point Tony. How, pray tell, = rid of the micro dust. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- Tony = Sent: Tuesday, November 06, = PMSubject: Re:Motor Plan ChadNo can do here :))I use varnish and it has to go into a drying cabinet after. dry. ---Outgoing mail is certified = Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: = / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 from jojo@ipa.net Tue Nov 6 20:18:28 2001 fA72IQ716394 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:18:26 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:18:33 -0500 Subject: Re: power fibers. John, After Ralph's statement about oscillation increase in hollowbuilts, I =wonder what, if any differences you may have noted in a fluted =hollowbuilt. M-D Adam,I have built a few fluted rods and I think they are a little stiffer = SNIPJohn I may tromp on a lot of toes here. I do not in any way like =hollowbuilt rods. The primary reason is that we are going back to a =hollow tubular construction and a hollow tube deforms significantly when = SNIP John, After Ralph's statement about = increase in hollowbuilts, I wonder what, if any differences you may have = in a fluted hollowbuilt. M-D John = Adam,I have built a few fluted rods and I think they are a little = SNIPJohn Ralph W. = hollow tubular construction and a hollow tube deforms = =SNIP from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 20:19:05 2001 fA72J5716652 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:19:05 -0600 ([209.178.134.155] helo=g2t8c9) id 161IJ4-0002wj-00; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 18:19:10 -0800 Subject: Re: power fibers. John, Thanks for the input. Have you seen Milliards book on wall thickness and =strength? Adam Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 5:39 PMSubject: Re: power fibers. Adam,I have built a few fluted rods and I think they are a little stiffer =than the other types. Mine (butts) are fluted all the way down except =at the ferrule. I would leave it solid about 1/2" below the female =ferrule then taper to the max. hollowed depth. I have really put mine =thru the mill fishing them. Can't tell you if they become oval or not = Also, don't wrap your guides too tight! I can't tell you what wall =thickness to go to at the bottom of the flute-I always just listen to my =gut feelings but my next one I intend to go to 0.060". I use Urac 185 =glue. Good luck! John ----- Original Message -----From: Adam VigilSent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:06 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: power fibers. Ralph, Just talking out loud here, I am undecided at best about hollow =building but I am going to give it a go. I have some of the best =rodmakers, you know who you are, willing to give me tips on how to do =it. So I am sure when I do make a hollow rod I will at least be doing it =right. Now what I have noticed is that when I was handling an 8.5' 5 wt =that was hollow built all the way up into the tips the swing weight and =the weight in the hand was much less then that of the 8' 5wt I hand =built. Now pith was put there by the good lord but then again so was =enamel. And I believe that its function was to transport water. The =outer powerfibres also transport water but not a well as the inner =fibers. But does the pith really contribute to the casting of a rod? And from what I understand about hollow building if damns are left =throughout the blank the ovoid deformation of the blank is minimized. I =have not heard if fluting completely through the cane causes oval =deformation or not. Winstons and Powells rods held up pretty well from =what I understand. So hollow building or solid building I guess I will make a few and =decide. But the advantages of Pith? I still need to think about that =one. Adam Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 4:41 PMSubject: Re: power fibers. I may tromp on a lot of toes here. I do not in any way like =hollowbuilt rods. The primary reason is that we are going back to a =hollow tubular construction and a hollow tube deforms significantly when =bent. Second, oscillation of the rod is increased. Thirdly its purpose =is dubious at best. If to cut weight in a rod, who really cares? =Bamboo in the preferred sizes of rod is light enough and if the rod is =balanced weight is virtually negligible. Strength? It has to be weaker =with less gluing surface. I stated in my first missive that the pith does serve a function. =Else why did the Creator make bamboo with pith? The cushion of pith =allows the rod to bend, yet retain its structural integrity. That is it =does deform as much, and I can tell you deformation is destructive of a =good cast Adam Vigil wrote: Ralph,What size rods are we talking about here? I tend think that the =pith wouldcan of break down and since it is at the center it provided =little use. Ithink I got this from Marinaro "In the Ring...". And how =about taking outall the pith by hollow building? of course dimension =would have to change toaccount for hollowing.Adam--http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium\. John, Thanks for the input. Have you seen Milliards = thickness and strength? Adam ----- Original Message ----- John = ; Ralph W. =Moon Cc: RodmakersPost Sent: Tuesday, November 06, = PMSubject: Re: power =fibers. Adam,I have built a few fluted rods and I think they are a little = or not but you really do notice the difference in swing weight or = thickness to go to at the bottom of the flute-I always just listen to = John ----- Original Message ----- Adam VigilSent: Tuesday, November 06, = PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: power =fibers. Ralph, Just talking out loud here, I am = best about hollow building but I am going to give it a go. I have = the best rodmakers, you know who you are, willing to give me tips on = do it. So I am sure when I do make a hollow rod I will at least be = right. Now what I have noticed is that when I was handling an 8.5' 5 = was hollow built all the way up into the tips the swing weight and = built. Now pith was put there by the good = transport water. The outer powerfibres also transport water but not = as the inner fibers. But does the pith really contribute to the = rod? And from what I understand about = building if damns are left throughout the blank the ovoid = blank is minimized. I have not heard if fluting completely through = causes oval deformation or not. Winstons and Powells rods held up = well from what I understand. So hollow building or solid = still need to think about that one. Adam ----- Original Message ----- = Ralph W. = Vigil Cc: Rodmakers Sent: Tuesday, November 06, = PMSubject: Re: power =fibers.Adam, I may tromp on a lot of toes here. = going back to a hollow tubular construction and a hollow tube = rod is light enough and if the rod is balanced weight is virtually = surface.I stated in my first missive that the pith does = deformation is destructive of a good castAdam Vigil =wrote:Ralph,What size rods are wetalking =about here? I tend think that the pith wouldcan of break down and =since it is at the center it provided little use. Ithink I got this = from Marinaro "In the Ring...". And how about taking outall the pith = toaccount for hollowing.Adam-- http://www.ida.net/user=s/rmoon/symposium.-- http://www.ida.net/user=s/rmoon/symposium = from RMargiotta@aol.com Tue Nov 6 20:21:31 2001 fA72LU717515 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:21:30 -0600 Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying What's going on is that the resins in the varnish are cross-linking to form a film by reacting with oxygen. This will continue well beyond the time it takes for varnish to "dry", that is, for the solvents to evaporate. As the finish cross-links ("cures") more, it will become harder, which is better for polishing That is why most wood finishing books say to wait as long as you can before polishing the final the coat. Flexner's book says a good rule of thumb is a month, but you might get away with something shorter. I wouldn't go with anything shorter than a week, especially with spar, but that;s juts playing it safe. I don't know if heat and low humidity accelerate the curing process, but I bet it helps a little. (Sure reduces tack time, though). --Rich from cw@vanion.com Tue Nov 6 20:23:40 2001 fA72Ne718429 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:23:40 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:28:29 -0700 Subject: Re Motor Plan Tony, I have my dip tube set up in a 4'x4' room that I keep around 90 =degrees [drying closet] so after 24hrs the varnish isn't tacky, and I =can remove for the next section to be processed. Seems to keep the dust =to a min. Tony, I have my dip tube set up ina = that I keep around 90 degrees [drying closet] so after 24hrs the varnish = tacky, and I can remove for the next section to be processed. Seems to = dust to a min. from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 20:27:49 2001 fA72Rm719837 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:27:48 -0600 06 Nov 2001 18:27:56 PST Subject: Re:Motor Plan rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu how about a tac cloth? i was doubtful at first. butthen there was the proof when i looked with magnifiersand then the end result after tacking...there it was.thanks jim bureau! timothy --- Wayne Kifer wrote: Interesting point Tony. How, pray tell, do you getrid of the micro dust. Wayne----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Miller 5:14 PMSubject: Re:Motor Plan ChadNo can do here :))I use varnish and it has to go into a dryingcabinet after.If I let it dry normally it would take a week formy varnish to dry. ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system(http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - ReleaseDate: 10/9/01 ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Nov 6 20:31:43 2001 fA72Vf721056 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:31:41 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:31:46 -0500 Subject: Re:Motor Plan you got it Tim:))That's how I do it ,Tack cloth.Cut the dust in varnish down significantly.Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} you got it Tim:))That's how I do it ,Tack cloth.Cut the dust in varnish down significantly.Tonywww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jbbamboo47@yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 20:35:48 2001 fA72Zl722215 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:35:47 -0600 06 Nov 2001 18:35:55 PST Subject: Fwd: Fw: PLEASE LOOK AT PICTURE THEN FORWARD 1005100555=:57034" --0-157770998-1005100555=:57034 Note: forwarded message attached. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com--0- 157770998-1005100555=:57034 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:39:58 -0800 Tue, 06 Nov 2001 21:39:58 GMT mcqueen53@hotmail.com, jbbamboo47@yahoo.com, jbgutierrez@home.com,jondrus@tampabay.rr.com, SJANIAK@HOTMAIL.COM, MHOLMES810@aol.com,rcavictoria@aol.com, mastershft@aol.comSubject: Fwd: Fw: PLEASE LOOK AT PICTURE THEN FORWARD FILETIME=[95183F60:01C1670B]Content-Length: 25761 From: CHROSTOWSKI JENNY , carrie trombley , janetwatkins , "a.nancy" , "A. Shirley U. Bill" , Uncle Ron And Aunt Bonnie , connie brown , suebrown , jeff chrostowski , kim chrostowski , veronica chrostowski , michael holmes , pamklauer , rachael klauer , Irina Mladenovski Subject: Fwd: Fw: PLEASE LOOK AT PICTURE THEN FORWARD Note: forwarded message attached. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp "Judy Baranski" ,"Beth Baranski" ,"Kim McDaniel" , "Dawn Malave","SUE DUDEK" , "CHROSTOWSKI JENNY",, "Vicki Jasina" ,"Kristen Schell" , "PAUL HILL" Subject: Fw: PLEASE LOOK AT PICTURE THEN FORWARD type="multipart/alternative"; Content-Length: 14482 Mattew Lewis ; Mark Kelley ; Kim Sultana ; Jill Crossfield ; Jenny ; =Jack Caldwell ; Hawk Wilson ; GONZALAMOS@aol.com ; Danny Miller ; Brian = Subject: Fw: PLEASE LOOK AT PICTURE THEN FORWARD Van Lanen ; Jacquie Zahrt ; Erin Sprangers ; eloy Rivas ; Danielle Swink = Subject: PLEASE LOOK AT PICTURE THEN FORWARD Subject: PLEASE LOOK AT PICTURE THEN FORWARD From: Amodei Miller ; Brian Lau ; Bernice Kinsler ; Becky = Amodei Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 3:55 AMSubject: Fw: PLEASE LOOK AT PICTURE THENFORWARD From:Kelly = Eaton ; sherri ; nick ; mike ; matt ; mary rivas ; josh ; Jade= Zahrt ; Erin Sprangers ; eloy= buttercup ; =amanda ; albert = Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:39 AMSubject: PLEASE LOOK AT PICTURE THENFORWARD Subject: PLEASE LOOK AT PICTURE THENFORWARD = anything, = = from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Nov 6 20:38:21 2001 fA72cK723039 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:38:20 -0600 Subject: Re: Motor plan I use a 110V, 1RPM humidifier motor with an extension cord spliced to =its leads . . . plug in, its on, unplug, its off. Its a geared motor, =so you can't turn it by hand when its plugged in, but it can be turned =with a little effort when unplugged. I usually lower the section to =just above the varnish level, then rotate the motor spool to lower the =last inch or so. The motor is fastened with two screws to the up-right =leg of a metal T-plate, and the T- plate is fastened to a 8" x 8" wood =base. A 6 lb. lead weight holds everything stable, and I can move the =base around to suit, or put it away when I'm finished. The dip tank is =1 1/4" copper tube with a well at the exit, and snaps into place on the =front of my bench, and is removed and stored in the corner when not in =use. The draw cord is fly line backing (doesn't twist) which goes from =the drum to a cup hook screwed into the ceiling and plumb with the tank = I use a 110V, 1RPM humidifier motor = the section to just above the varnish level, then rotate the motor spool = the up-right leg of a metal T-plate, and the T-plate is fastened to a 8" = 1/4" copper tube with a well at the exit, and snaps into place on the = draw cord is fly line backing (doesn't twist) which goes from the drum = from cw@vanion.com Tue Nov 6 20:39:43 2001 fA72db723574 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:39:37 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:44:26 -0700 Subject: RE MOTOR PLAN Tony, I lucky to live in southern Colorado, 7500ft elev, alpine desert, = I'm not sure, but the heat in the closet gets things to about 10% =humidity. Tony, I lucky to live in southern = I'm not sure, but the heat in the = things to about 10% humidity. from jojo@ipa.net Tue Nov 6 20:42:04 2001 fA72g3724568 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:42:03 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:42:10 -0500 Subject: Re:Motor Plan Works for me. All tack cloths are not created equal, either. Some claim tonever dry out -- and do. I've found one particular one to be good, but can'trecall the name at the moment. I buy them by the box. They come in a lightblue box, and each of them have a blue spot in them. Dust? What dust? M-D how about a tac cloth? i was doubtful at first. butthen there was the proof when i looked with magnifiersand then the end result after tacking...there it was.thanks jim bureau! timothy from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 20:46:08 2001 fA72k7725787 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:46:07 -0600 ([209.178.135.11] helo=g2t8c9) id 161Ij8-0007km-00; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 18:46:07 -0800 , "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: Motor plan I get a cap for the tube where they sell the tube. I attach a pet cock =valve (I think that is what it is called). I drain the varnish into the =varnish can and then close it up. I reuse the varnish over and over =again. The way I get my tube dust free is first when I got it it washed =it out and ran a lot of water through it. I let the tube dry and =inspected it for dust. Then keep it capped! both ends. When the rod is =ready to finish I take the top cap off, put on the bottom cap with the =valve and fasten with a hose clamp. I then pour in the strained varnish =into the tube.Put the cap back on top and let all the bubble come to the =top. I set up the tips or butt on plastic cut outs to keep it from =touching the sides. Now you can either lower the sections into the tube =with a little string and eye hook or you can stand on a ladder and =insert the sections. I have the sections attached to a dowel and string. =The dowel rest on top of the tube and the string to the section. You can =then unroll the string from the dowel to lower the section to exactly =the level of varnish you desire and I then masking tape the dowel and =string so it can no longer advance. I cover the top of the tube with a =cloth or newspaper to keep dust out. I open the valve at the bottom and =let the varnish drain into the container. I use to stop at every guide =and wait. I no longer do so, it is unnecessary. Since you can see =exactly how slow the varnish is moving I set the drain to go very slow =about 2" per minute. This allows the varnish plenty of time to catch up =over the guides. After dinner an TV I then check on the sections when =it is done I take off the hose clamp holding the cap and valve and put =it into mineral spirits. I then put a sock over the bottom hole to keep =dust out. The rods sections dry undisturbed. If need be have more then =one tube and use the same varnish. You can actually have 2 tips in one = Some of this I figured out for myself the rest I learned from the list. = Adam Vigil Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 5:47 PMSubject: Re: Motor plan What do you use for a valve, and what and how do you let your varnish =drain into? Do you re-use your varnish? How do you get the inside of =your wet tube dust free? See, you started something! ----- Original Message -----From: Adam VigilSent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:46 PM Subject: Re: Motor plan I am a simple man. I use a clear acrylic drain tube. No motor, wire, =spools no nuttin!. Drain varnish, cover openings with a cloth. With a =couple of clear tubes and the drains set for super slow I go in for =dinner and watch some T.V.. No dust, no runs and if you want to get =fancy a set of fluorescent lights dry it right up. I always wonder why you would pull a perfectly good wet varnish =blank out into the environment were all the shop gremlins are? Letting =the blanks sit in the clear tube I can see if any runs occurs, bubbles =or whatever. Letting it dry in its tube is like keeping it in a "force =field" Acrylic tube from a plastic supplier $7 Drain from home depot $4, =piece of mind...priceless Adam Vigil (this idea is original to D. Hayashida, thanks Darryl) Subject: Re: Motor plan Another thing that works for that is to put two locking collars on =either side of your shaft, with a set of washers against the spool and =springs between the spool and collars. Push the collars against the =springs enough that the spool will unreel when you pull on the string, =but not clutch when you're lifting a rod section. This way, I don't =ever have to reach to the top of the enclosure where my motor is and it =beats the hell out of taking that damn toothpick out from between the =motor shaft and the "Keyway" on the bore of the spool (Just a little =hole a bit smaller than the toothpick) so I can let the section down! =Yep, that was what I did before this! *S* Hey, it worked for 12 years! later,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com/ Subject: Motor plan I thought you guys might like to see this. It might be good for beginners or people who have motors on =their dip tubes that only go in one direction.(this might be a solution)I had to come up with a way to reverse a motor that only went in =one direction.My solution was to make a clutch system out of a wooden spool, =piece of threaded rod ,some nuts & washers.Here is a link to a picture: The rod is lowered in to the tank by releasing the nuts to the =side of the wooden spool allowing it to spin freely, when the nuts are =tightened the spool is locked and the drive is engaged.Very simple and works great.:))I just thought it might help some to create a dip tank =system.:))Nothing complicated here.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html attach a pet cock valve (I think that is what it is called). I drain the = into the varnish can and then close it up. I reuse the varnish over and = again. The way I get my tube dust free is first when I got it it washed = and ran a lot of water through it. I let the tube dry and inspected it = Then keep it capped! both ends. When the rod is ready to finish I take = cap off, put on the bottom cap with the valve and fasten with a hose = then pour in the strained varnish into the tube.Put the cap back on top = outs to keep it from touching the sides. Now you can either lower the = into the tube with a little string and eye hook or you can stand on a = insert the sections. I have the sections attached to a dowel and string. = dowel rest on top of the tube and the string to the section. You can = the string from the dowel to lower the section to exactly the level of = you desire and I then masking tape the dowel and string so it can no = advance. I cover the top of the tube with a cloth or newspaper to keep = I open the valve at the bottom and let the varnish drain into the = use to stop at every guide and wait. I no longer do so, it is = you can see exactly how slow the varnish is moving I set the drain to go = slow about 2" per minute. This allows the varnish plenty of time to = is done I take off the hose clamp holding the cap and valve and put it = mineral spirits. I then put a sock over the bottom hole to keep dust = the same varnish. You can actually have 2 tips in one tube and a butt = another drying at the same time. Some of this I figured out for myself the rest I = from the list. For this reason I am here to stay through the good and = bad. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- John = ; Bob =; flyfish@defnet.com ; RodmakersPost Sent: Tuesday, November 06, = PMSubject: Re: Motor plan something! ----- Original Message ----- Adam VigilSent: Tuesday, November 06, = PM Subject: Re: Motor plan BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no- repeat;COLOR: =#000000; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT; FONT-SIZE: 12pt} I am a simple man. I use a clear = tube. No motor, wire, spools no nuttin!. Drain varnish, cover = a cloth. With a couple of clear tubes and the drains set for super = in for dinner and watch some T.V.. No dust, no runs and if you want = fancy a set of fluorescent lights dry it right up. I always wonder why you would pull = good wet varnish blank out into the environment were all the shop = are? Letting the blanks sit in the clear tube I can see if any runs = a "force field" Acrylic tube from a plastic = mind...priceless Adam Vigil (this idea is original to D. = Darryl)----- Original Message ----- Bob= Sent: Tuesday, November 06, = PMSubject: Re: Motor =plan Another thing that works for that is to put = collars on either side of your shaft, with a set of washers = against the springs enough that the spool will unreel when you = string, but not clutch when you're lifting a rod = way, I don't ever have to reach to the top of the enclosure where = is and it beats the hell out of taking that damn toothpick out = later,BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com/ ----- Original Message ----- = Miller Sent: Tuesday, November = 5:19 PMSubject: Motor plan I thought you guys might like to see this. It might be good for beginners or people who have motors on = solution)I had to come up with a way to reverse a motor that only = one direction.My solution was to make a clutch system out of a = piece of threaded rod ,some nuts & washers.Here is a link to a picture:www.homestead.= The rod is lowered in to the tank by releasing the nuts to = of the wooden spool allowing it to spin freely, when the nuts = tightened the spool is locked and the drive is engaged.Very simple and works great.:)) system.:))Nothing complicated here.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Nov 6 20:46:30 2001 fA72kR725975 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:46:28 -0600 Subject: Re:Motor Plan I use a tack cloth just BEFORE dipping. The cloth leaves the rod =section's surface slightly "tacky" and its easy to brush your clothing =and get small fibres stuck to it . cloth leaves the rod section's surface slightly "tacky" and its easy to = your clothing and get small fibres stuck to it =. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 21:06:36 2001 fA736Z701603 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:06:35 -0600 ([209.178.135.11] helo=g2t8c9) id 161J34-0005Pf-00; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 19:06:43 -0800 Subject: Re: TA BOOM! So let it be written, So let it be done. And his name shall beremoved from all post and shall never be spoken of again. And peace returned to the list and their loins became fruitful and abundant.And there was no murmuring amongst them for the plague had been liftedfromabove and rodmaking once again was good. And blessed they are. And thosewho did not endure to the end may their souls find comfort in cyberspace, wewill wait for their return. Adam Vigil P.S.- If GG shows up I am kickin some A$$----- Original Message ----- Subject: TA That's enough Terry If you don't like the list or it's users then go away..for good. no onehere needs your kind ofadvice.. furthermore other than to tweak you back, no one gives a crapabout your beveler oryour rods..i'd probably not be going out on a limb to say that JW's onepass beveler willoutperform your secret special.. LISTUSERS (tony) part of the destruction terry does is because he isgoaded into it. Or shouldi say allowed to continue on.. silence would be a good response. When you see TA on the list just think (to paraphrase Brian) concreteaBUTment.. don't keeprunning your head into it.. it just gives him more time for his contraryopinions.. Terry if you know so much: write a book, if you're capable, and let ustake pot shots at you andyour all-knowing wonderfulness. jerry from Troutgetter@aol.com Tue Nov 6 21:15:23 2001 fA73FM703901 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:15:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Motor Plan Tony,I have to agree about the tack cloth. I have always used one. But ... there might be another culprit at work, your thinner! I have found that as my varnish gets older I tend to add a little more thinner to the tube. With fresh varnish the first few rods come out pretty good. As time goes on,more "specks" on the rods as they are dipped. At first I just thought that it might be "stuff" falling, or drifting into the tube. I have since started pre- dipping to pick up what ever might be on the surface of the varnish in the tube. A strip or two of bamboo lying around the shop simply dipped by hand and reasonably slowly drawn out of the tube picks up almost everything floating on the top of the varnish. I have found from others on the list, that all thinners are not created equal! Several of the folks on the list have advocated artist grade thinners as they are more refined. This makes sense to me and will be used in the next batch. As a test for your self, take and wipe down a section with thinner and let dry as always, then take your tack cloth and wipe it down. the section should be clean now. Take and wipe down the section again with your thinner andhold to the light, you might see what I saw and there are those little specks just waiting for a coat of varnish to bring them out into the glaring eye of you and your customer. Thank God for the people on this list and 3M finess- it!Mike Shay Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CA from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Nov 6 21:20:48 2001 fA73Km705610 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:20:48 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:20:47 -0500 Subject: Fwd: The list and content. (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) Full-name: Grhghlndr Subject: The list and content. It is up to us all about what we should post here. I know I have said this before and I am going to say it again. I like everyone else have been guilty of posting things that are non rod making and I guess all I can say is sorry there has been nothing on here and you panic. "OH MY GOD is the list down, I have resigned and reapplied and still there is nothing here." I know we have seen that many times. The only way we are not going to get non rod related posts is to all make an agreement that we will keep it only to rodmaking flyfishing posts. No more getting on and saying yeh I agree or right on Bret, Tony whomever. Sometimes this is our only link to outside things and the occasional question about being someplace or going someplace is OK as long as it stops there. I know I have dropped the list before and stayed off for a few months but I still get some good stuff here and I hope that I post some good stuff once in a while. Shall we try and make a pact between us that we will try and not post any more drivel on here? If anyone agrees just send an empty post to limbo and make the pact between you and the rest for this idea. Just a thought. OH YEH go ahead and flame me off list though. (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) everyone else have been guilty of posting things that are non rod making and you opened the list lately where there has been nothing on here and you to all make an agreement that we will keep it only to rodmaking flyfishing Sometimes this is our only link to outside things and the occasional questionabout being someplace or going someplace is OK as long as it stops months but I still get some good stuff here and I hope that I post some goodstuff once in a while. Shall we try and make a pact between us that we will try and not post any (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from lblan@provide.net Tue Nov 6 21:21:06 2001 fA73L5705699 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:21:05 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:21:12 -0500 Subject: RE: Thinner(s) It is interesting to go to an art store, pick up the various clear glassbottles of thinners and turpentines, and look at the precipitate on thebottom of some of the bottles. Same thing applies to some of the artvarnishes, by the way, like Dammar. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Troutgetter@aol.comSent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:15 PM Subject: Re: Motor Plan Tony,I have to agree about the tack cloth. I have always used one. But... theremight be another culprit at work, your thinner! I have found that as myvarnish gets older I tend to add a little more thinner to the tube. Withfresh varnish the first few rods come out pretty good. As timegoes on, more"specks" on the rods as they are dipped. At first I just thought that itmight be "stuff" falling, or drifting into the tube. I havesince startedpre- dipping to pick up what ever might be on the surface of thevarnish inthe tube. A strip or two of bamboo lying around the shop simply dipped byhand and reasonably slowly drawn out of the tube picks up almosteverythingfloating on the top of the varnish. I have found from others onthe list,that all thinners are not created equal! Several of the folks on the listhave advocated artist grade thinners as they are more refined. This makessense to me and will be used in the next batch. As a test for your self, take and wipe down a section withthinner and letdry as always, then take your tack cloth and wipe it down. thesection shouldbe clean now. Take and wipe down the section again with yourthinner and holdto the light, you might see what I saw and there are those littlespecks justwaiting for a coat of varnish to bring them out into the glaringeye of youand your customer. Thank God for the people on this list and 3Mfiness- it!Mike Shay Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CA from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Nov 6 21:22:10 2001 fA73M9706188 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:22:09 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:22:07 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Terry Ackland's "contributions"OK ENOUGH OF THIS CRAP (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) Full-name: Grhghlndr Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's "contributions"OK ENOUGH OF THIS CRAP GUYS DROP THE F---King Terry Ackland posts and get to rod making you arenot doing the list any good.BRET (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) GUYS DROP THE F---King Terry Ackland posts and get to rodmaking you are not doing the list any good.BRET (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Nov 6 21:23:47 2001 fA73Nk706855 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:23:46 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:23:52 -0500 Subject: Re:Motor Plan Yep, I mix the thinner and the varnish in a separate clean container =and then strain it a few times before it goes in the tube.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} container and then strain it a few times before it goes in the =tube.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 21:24:24 2001 fA73ON707166 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:24:23 -0600 06 Nov 2001 19:24:32 PST Subject: Re:Motor Plan read them well. some have silicon. timothy --- Jojo DeLancier wrote: Works for me. All tack cloths are not created equal,either. Some claim tonever dry out -- and do. I've found one particularone to be good, but can'trecall the name at the moment. I buy them by thebox. They come in a lightblue box, and each of them have a blue spot in them.Dust? What dust? M-D From: "timothy troester" how about a tac cloth? i was doubtful at first. but then there was the proof when i looked with magnifiers and then the end result after tacking...there it was. thanks jim bureau! timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Nov 6 21:25:32 2001 fA73PV707780 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:25:31 -0600 (authenticated) Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:25:16 -0800 Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying Thanks Rich, That's the answer I was looking for. Since this one doesn't need polishing, Harry RMargiotta@aol.com wrote: What's going on is that the resins in the varnish are cross-linking to form afilm by reacting with oxygen. This will continue well beyond the time ittakes for varnish to "dry", that is, for the solvents to evaporate. As thefinish cross-links ("cures") more, it will become harder, which is better forpolishing That is why most wood finishing books say to wait as long as youcan before polishing the final the coat. Flexner's book says a good rule ofthumb is a month, but you might get away with something shorter. Iwouldn'tgo with anything shorter than a week, especially with spar, but that;s jutsplaying it safe. I don't know if heat and low humidity accelerate the curingprocess, but I bet it helps a little. (Sure reduces tack time, though). --Rich -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 21:32:08 2001 fA73W7709818 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:32:07 -0600 ([209.178.135.11] helo=g2t8c9) id 161JRn-0000Yt-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 19:32:15 -0800 Subject: Hollow building and Milward In Millwards book he gives some numbers on wall thickness and strength %.The graph he has done while could be helpful is also not the easiest toread. A list member Claude is working on a little project I mention awhileback. If he gets it up and running it should be quite a help in determiningtolerances for hollow built wall thickness. I will keep the list posted. I think it was rather nice of Claude to work onthis for us and he deserves our thanks. AdamVigil from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 21:35:35 2001 fA73ZZ710687 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:35:35 -0600 ([209.178.135.11] helo=g2t8c9) id 161JV8-0003xC-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 19:35:43 -0800 Subject: blueing an lacquer I blued some NS in some fixer I have. Now what is the best, hardest andlongest lasting laquer to put over it. I know there is some super toughstuff developed for aerospace anyone have the name or source? Adam Vigil from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Nov 6 21:43:18 2001 fA73hH712485 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:43:17 -0600 Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying When I went through my apprenticeship many years ago we toured the Fuller O'Brien plant in So. Bend and we got to see and talk to many people about different things. Since I was using their varnish on rods I was restoring I asked them about their varnishes. I was told that varnish usually dries in a 24 hour period but it took a full month to fully cure at 70 degrees. I always have used this for a rule of thumb for letting my spare or other varnish to dry. I am not sure about polys because I do not use nor like them.Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) When I went through my apprenticeship many years ago wetoured the Fuller O'Brien plant in So. Bend and we got to see and talk to many varnish usually dries in a 24 hour period but it took a full month to fully cure do not use nor like them.Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from flytyr@southshore.com Tue Nov 6 21:45:15 2001 fA73jE713128 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:45:15 -0600 fA73jMx09439 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:45:22 -0600 Subject: Turning Burl I have had pretty good luck turning some reel seatinserts till I tried turning some cherry burl.I have had three pieces literally explode whileturning or drilling the center hole.Can anyone shed some light on this. Hate to wasteany more of that cherry burl.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Nov 6 21:47:42 2001 fA73lf713840 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:47:41 -0600 (authenticated) Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:47:33 -0800 Subject: Re: blueing an lacquer Adam, I like and use a product called "Nyalic". It's a clear coat designed solvents. Easy to use. Comes in a spray can that'll do all the ferrulesin the world. Just spray it on, and clean up any drips with a Q-tip. Harry Adam Vigil wrote: I blued some NS in some fixer I have. Now what is the best, hardest andlongest lasting laquer to put over it. I know there is some super toughstuff developed for aerospace anyone have the name or source? Adam Vigil -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from jojo@ipa.net Tue Nov 6 21:53:50 2001 fA73rn715400 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:53:49 -0600 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:53:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Turning Burl Tony, With what type of drill bit are you boring? M-D I have had pretty good luck turning some reel seatinserts till I tried turning some cherry burl.I have had three pieces literally explode whileturning or drilling the center hole.Can anyone shed some light on this. Hate to wasteany more of that cherry burl.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from LECLAIR123@aol.com Tue Nov 6 22:06:35 2001 fA746ZN18015 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:06:35 -0600 Subject: Re: blueing an lacquer Adam,I use a product called Sta-Brite . It is made for coatingbrass lamps,etc. It's the best stuff I've tried. It also has UV protection, which you will need, if you don't want the color to fade. Dave L. http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from LECLAIR123@aol.com Tue Nov 6 22:14:23 2001 fA74ENN19085 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:14:23 -0600 Subject: Re: Turning Burl Tony,Turning and boring some of the burls can be tricky sometimes. It sounds like you had a lot of hair line cracks in the wood.You run into this in burls. You have to look closely and if there are cracks or fractures, soak the area with super glue. Let itget all the way down into the wood. Then spay it with someaccelerator to harden the glue. The main thing when turning orboring burls, is to take your time and take small cuts. You may want to send woods like that out and get themstabilized, before you start working on them. This is the bestthing to do with burls. I send a lot of my burls to be stabilized.They turn a lot easier when they have been stabilized. Dave L. http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Nov 6 23:06:43 2001 fA756gN20726 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:06:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's "contributions" I am in absolute top shape, thanks Dick.it does me a power of good to get on the list and wind the guys up. It neverfails, works every time, More fun than rodmaking thats for sure.I knew I could get Tony, he does not need a delicate presentation, just afrosty chucked in.Why is it I can pull the same old stunt time after time? would not work withtrout.Terry Dick & Kathy Fuhrman wrote: I think that Terry's blood pressure is up again and he needs to take hismedicine and bring it down.Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message -----From: "Rick" Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:43 PMSubject: Terry Ackland's "contributions" Folks, I've tried to be more than civil and have been patient beyond mynormal limits. But I must now speak out. I am attempting to ascertainjust what Terry A.'s intent is in his constant negative attitude andreplies to inquiries to the list. He claims to have the only workabletaper beveler, but he's not talking. He has the perfect impregnant formass marketing rods, but again - top secret. If he has accomplishedthese feats, good for him! He will do well in his new fulltime career.He is certainly not expected to reveal trade secrets which willadversely affect his future business. With that said, this list is for SUPPORTING each others asrodmakers. I do not expect him to share his experiences with us if itcosts him. But - I see no reason for him to constantly try to denigratethe efforts of others, confuse the issues at hand, and dissuadehobbyists from inexpensive though admittedly laborious methods otherthan to generally try to lessen the quality and value of the content ofthe list. To Terry, I say, "Contribute something worthwhile to the list orleave it. Your current actions and correspondence are hypocritical andgo against the grain of your very own words. If this list is worthlessand spreads misinformation, why do you attend to it? If you are intenton straightening us out, show us what you've got that proves the rest ofus wrong. If you are in the situation which you claim, i.e. have plentyof time, know all the correct methods, and have the appropriatemachinery, why don't you let US continue to provide our contribution tothe growth in interest in bamboo rods, and YOU can profit from it byselling well made, moderately costed, low maintenance rods to thatinterested public. In the meantime BUGGER OFF!" To Mike, please consider this a plea to remove Mr. Ackland from thelist. I think a perusal of his 'contributions' over the last few weekswill attest to the negative impact he makes on this list. I haveconsidered taking a 'vacation' from the list if he continues in thismanner and I fear that this type of action is his real intent. Rick C. P.S. Terry, don't reply directly to me. I will not read anything youhave to say. You have proven that your conversations are unilateral andI will not be drawn into such wastes of time. from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Nov 6 23:12:20 2001 fA75CKN21113 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:12:20 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 00:12:24 -0500 Subject: test/ delete www.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from rodwrapp@swbell.net Tue Nov 6 23:33:59 2001 fA75XwN21828 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:33:58 -0600 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Re: blueing an lacquer Go to your locak Hobby shop and back in the airplane department there issome clear laquer called Aero Gloss.. Hal bacon turned me on to this and itis tuff as nails.. You can also just type in Aero Gloss on your searchengine and find info on it... Thanks Dave----- Original Message ----- Subject: blueing an lacquer I blued some NS in some fixer I have. Now what is the best, hardest andlongest lasting laquer to put over it. I know there is some super toughstuff developed for aerospace anyone have the name or source? Adam Vigil from flyfish@defnet.com Tue Nov 6 23:49:00 2001 fA75mxN22331 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:48:59 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 00:49:04 -0500 Subject: prankster There was an attachment that was sent to the list recently.Delete it. Don't open it.I opened it. I thought I had a virus. email settings.If any are experiencing problems I have the fix.I think the post was titled look at these pictures or something like =that.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} There was an attachment that was sent to the list recently.Delete it. Don't open it.I opened it. I thought I had a virus.It wasn't a virus , but it does somehow change your email settings. I think the post was titled look at these pictures or something = that.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Wed Nov 7 00:11:06 2001 fA76B5N23081 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 00:11:05 -0600 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:11:03 -0800 Wed, 07 Nov 2001 06:11:03 GMT Subject: ACKLAND contribution in parenthesis FILETIME=[FAC83AD0:01C16752] download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Nov 7 00:32:53 2001 fA76WrN23780 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 00:32:53 -0600 ([209.178.134.117] helo=g2t8c9) id 161MGh-00007E-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 22:32:59 -0800 Subject: PU glue and hollow build I know some of you guys like PU glues. How does it work with hollow orfluted sections? Since the glue expands 4x its size. It will fill the holloweasily. Ralph brought up that pith dampens the vibrations. I wonder if thePU glue does the same. I do not like the mess of PU but has anyone hadexperience in using it with hollow built? And do you think it has negativeor positive affects on a hollow or fluted rod? Adam Vigil from dannyt@frisurf.no Wed Nov 7 01:37:44 2001 fA77bgN25338 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:37:42 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:27:23+0100 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:27:23+0100 Subject: Re: PU glue and hollow build Hi Adam, I`ve discussed this with a swedish rod builder who makes hollow rods (notPer Brandin). He says PU will foam up and fill the space, but will turn intopowder after a while....... danny ----- Original Message ----- Subject: PU glue and hollow build I know some of you guys like PU glues. How does it work with hollow orfluted sections? Since the glue expands 4x its size. It will fill the hollow easily. Ralph brought up that pith dampens the vibrations. I wonder if thePU glue does the same. I do not like the mess of PU but has anyone hadexperience in using it with hollow built? And do you think it has negativeor positive affects on a hollow or fluted rod? Adam Vigil from caneman@clnk.com Wed Nov 7 01:48:43 2001 fA77mhN25717 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:48:43 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Re Motor Plan Don't have a drip tube, I dip my rods and I don't have dust problems, =can varnish sections as fast as they come out of the tube... and after a =little help from a friend, with no dust bunnies in the finish. Most I =have done in one day is 4 rods I think... and that was a short day. =Long live the dip tube! Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com Subject: Re Motor Plan Tony, I have my dip tube set up in a 4'x4' room that I keep around 90 =degrees [drying closet] so after 24hrs the varnish isn't tacky, and I =can remove for the next section to be processed. Seems to keep the dust =to a min. Don't have a drip tube, I dip my rods and = dust problems, can varnish sections as fast as they come out of the = after a little help from a friend, with no dust bunnies in the = Most I have done in one day is 4 rods I think... and that was a short = Long live the dip tube! Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com ----- Original Message ----- chadwigham = Sent: Tuesday, November 06, = PMSubject: Re Motor Plan Tony, I have my dip tube set up in= room that I keep around 90 degrees [drying closet] so after 24hrs the = isn't tacky, and I can remove for the next section to be processed. = keep the dust to a min. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Nov 7 02:09:09 2001 fA7897N26174 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 02:09:08 -0600 Subject: Re: Motor plan Pretty neat. Tony At 06:19 PM 11/6/01 -0500, Tony Miller wrote: I thought you guys might like to see this. It might be good for beginners or people who have motors on their dip tubes that only go in one direction.(this might be a solution)I had to come up with a way to reverse a motor that only went in one direction.My solution was to make a clutch system out of a wooden spool, piece of threaded rod ,some nuts & washers.Here is a link to a picture:www.homestead.com/bambooshop/projects.html >The rod is lowered in to the tank by releasing the nuts to the side of the wooden spool allowing it to spin freely, when the nuts are tightened the spool is locked and the drive is engaged.Very simple and works great.:))I just thought it might help some to create a dip tank system.:))Nothing complicated here.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Nov 7 02:09:10 2001 fA7897N26175 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 02:09:08 -0600 Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the same but has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it in a poly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I think this happened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it must not be any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Nov 7 02:09:20 2001 fA789IN26203 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 02:09:18 -0600 Subject: Ackland Chronicles MMMLLLCXX Final broadside. Delete at will. I've been asked to cease responding to you on list even though it's been a lot of fun BUT I'm in position for one last broadside, I've donned my red jacket and I simply can't let this pass. I am in absolute top shape, thanks Dick. Possibly famous last words?? it does me a power of good to get on the list and wind the guys up. It neverfails, works every time, More fun than rodmaking thats for sure.I knew I could get Tony, he does not need a delicate presentation, just afrosty chucked in. Not sure what a frosty is, a coldie maybe? In any event no, it doesn't take much in your case because I know if I waited long enough for you to come up with anything original or slightly different I'd have to wait a very long time because I doubt you're equipped to do it, it's a case of strike while the iron's hot and you've become so worked up you forget your pills but not before. Funny how there are parallels in every day life in all fields of human endeavor.Please allow a bit of self aggrandizement for a moment.I played either rugby union (the game used as the basis of NFL) or rugby league from the time I was in high school till I couldn't carry the injuries any longer and played my last game at 31 yo so I'm obviously both stupid and competitive but also bull headed which is possibly my only redeeming feature and that's not much I agree.One of the things that was drilled into me was if you see an opponent's head in the scrum kick it, that's why it's there. You just keep kindly shoving your head into the scrum to be kicked so it's hard to stop doing it, I enjoy it but I admit I shouldn't do it [:-)] I know it's all mind over matter though. Now to the parallels in every day life in all fields of human endeavor.When we played school teams from the bush we always knew they were not especially bright players and the tactics were ALWAYS the same.They'd try to play football in the fist half or part of it, be beaten like red haired orphans anyhow then in the second half not even attempt to win but to exact revenge and degenerate to thug tactics and try to injure as many players as they could on field and off after the game until they were jammed back on the bus and they went home to Hell or where ever it wasthey came from. We on the other hand wanted to play football so as long as the country boys did that we did too but sooner or later it wasn't football any longer.I for one still enjoyed playing it though because I don't mind a bit of rough play, so Tezza if you think I've been responding in anger to your clumsy and presumably par for the course presentations in all aspects of your life, sorry mate but it just isn't so. If in reading this you chose to not believe me then like I wrote, it's mind over matter. I don't mind and you don't matter [;-)] Why is it I can pull the same old stunt time after time? would not work withtrout. Like I wrote you have no choice because it's your only option of a very sparsely equipped and chewed up fly box but in the mean time try working on your casting and presentation. That's a good place to start. Remember what I said about parallels in every day life in all fields of human endeavor. Give it some thought, I know you don't need friends but they're fun to drink with if nothing else. Tony signing off to Tezza ON LINE with a big wet girlie kiss. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Nov 7 02:09:22 2001 fA789IN26202 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 02:09:18 -0600 Subject: Re:Motor Plan Somebody, I think Larry told me some have silicon on them. Be careful of these if that is so. Tony At 08:40 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Jojo DeLancier wrote: Works for me. All tack cloths are not created equal, either. Some claim tonever dry out -- and do. I've found one particular one to be good, but can'trecall the name at the moment. I buy them by the box. They come in a lightblue box, and each of them have a blue spot in them. Dust? What dust? M-D From: "timothy troester" how about a tac cloth? i was doubtful at first. butthen there was the proof when i looked with magnifiersand then the end result after tacking...there it was.thanks jim bureau! timothy /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from ajthramer@hotmail.com Wed Nov 7 02:11:05 2001 fA78B4N26839 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 02:11:04 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 00:10:58 -0800 Wed, 07 Nov 2001 08:10:58 GMT Subject: Re: TA FILETIME=[BB9434C0:01C16763] I am trying to figure out what all the fuss is about. from what I can gather someone asks Terry a question that he knows that Terry will not answerthen does a public flame to let everyone know what a PITA Terry is being again, he disagrees that a Hock blade is a needed item and questions whether it is worthwhile to flip over Toyotas and steel the springs or something. Simply that the blade that comes with the plane will do the job and since then things have degenerated into a slinging contest. It looks like a simple philosophical disagreement - Terry thinks of rodbuilding as a manufacturing process and most others want it to be anything but. The product achievedmay differ in appearance a little and function not a bit. Why not ask Terry how he forms his RS hardware? What grade of carbide to make a cutter out of? What angles? What working tolerance to work within? IMHO we should talk toa listmembers strength and knowlege and give a little lattitude when we know that there are certain proprietary things that should be left alone when a builder uses his accumulated knowlege and skill to put bread on his families table. If that little bit of what is important escapes you then? I've got more to say but I hope the idea came across.A.J. From: Jerry Foster Subject: TADate: Tue, 6 Nov 01 17:37:31 -0800 That's enough Terry If you don't like the list or it's users then go away..for good. no onehere needs your kind ofadvice.. furthermore other than to tweak you back, no one gives a crapabout your beveler oryour rods..i'd probably not be going out on a limb to say that JW's onepass beveler willoutperform your secret special.. LISTUSERS (tony) part of the destruction terry does is because he isgoaded into it. Or shouldi say allowed to continue on.. silence would be a good response. When you see TA on the list just think (to paraphrase Brian) concreteaBUTment.. don't keeprunning your head into it.. it just gives him more time for his contraryopinions.. Terry if you know so much: write a book, if you're capable, and let ustake pot shots at you andyour all-knowing wonderfulness. jerry _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Nov 7 03:10:57 2001 fA79AtN28280 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 03:10:55 -0600 Subject: Re: TA That's not really the issue though. The coil springs thing was just to say true any steel of the right type will work. It was an example, that's all. People do happen to make tools from it. A lot of the people on list are craftsmen not assemblers and I though they may have been interested in a source of decent tools as about 10 were and others obviously are in factdoing.The issue is the current std plane irons are not the same as TA harps about. People on list know that and respond. Terry must know this so but gets into stupid remarks for the hell of it which I admit I enflame/d and it drives newbies underground or gives the wrong impression.Yes the std irons work, yes they can be used but if the question is are they better from an edge keeping point of view the answer from all who respond seems to be a resounding yes. If somebody responds with what is simply BS to baffle the question there will be a response. Is the suggestion to answer questions with random answers, nobodyresponds and newbies bump around in the dark while we all keep quite about it? I've seen this with left hand screw drivers and sky hooks and it's fun soon wears out. Tony At 08:10 AM 11/7/01 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: I am trying to figure out what all the fuss is about. from what I can gather someone asks Terry a question that he knows that Terry will not answer then does a public flame to let everyone know what a PITA Terry is being again, he disagrees that a Hock blade is a needed item and questions whether it is worthwhile to flip over Toyotas and steel the springs or something. Simply that the blade that comes with the plane will do the job and since then things have degenerated into a slinging contest. It looks like a simple philosophical disagreement - Terry thinks of rodbuilding as a manufacturing process and most others want it to be anything but. The product achieved may differ in appearance a little and function not a bit. Why not ask Terry how he forms his RS hardware? What grade of carbideto make a cutter out of? What angles? What working tolerance to work within? IMHO we should talk to a listmembers strength and knowlege and give a little lattitude when we know that there are certain proprietary things that should be left alone when a builder uses his accumulated knowlege and skill to put bread on his families table. If that little bit of what is important escapes you then? I've got more to say but I hope the idea came across.A.J. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from eamlee@email.msn.com Wed Nov 7 06:59:04 2001 fA7Cx3N00545 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 06:59:03 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 04:58:18 -0800 Subject: Re: Turning burl Organization: Microsoft Corporation FILETIME=[DF17D280:01C1678B] Jojo-The 64,000 dollar question. I use a parabolic bit as was suggested by youknow who and life has never been the same.Eamon from crmitchell@ocsonline.com Wed Nov 7 07:08:20 2001 fA7D8JN00858 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 07:08:19 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:05:51 -0500 Subject: VArnish Drying In talking about varnish drying, I separate the it into 2 chemicalprocesses - drying to the touch, and curing. The "drying" takes placevery quickly at the surface as the solvents evaporate, and the rod isdry to the touch and can be carefully handled. "Curing" is the chemicalcross linking process occuring throughout the depth of the film, andtakes far longer. Depending on the the of varnish, solvents system anddrying agents, this can indeed be month. I've been using a simple trick to speed up the process - heat. Tkingthe rod to work, I leave it lying with the ferrules resting between thedash and seat of the car. It reaches some very warm temperatures, butnot excessive (maybe in AZ in summer, but OK here in GA) and I can getcomplete cure in 3 days. Now have access to a lab oven large enough toaccommodate rod sections and can control temp and humidity precisely.Will be experimenting with optimum conditions and report. from harms1@pa.net Wed Nov 7 07:17:00 2001 fA7DGxN01145 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 07:16:59 -0600 Subject: Re: Turning Burl Tony, Forgive me if my answer here seems simplistic or naive. I may not quiteunderstand the difficulties you are having. When drilling the center hole in my burls (well, actually ALL my woodinserts), I begin with the squared block and use my drill press. I preferthe drill press to the lathe because I can feel what I'm doing better. I simply position the block upright on the bed and start a small, pilot hole(3/16" extended-length bit). Set your drill press to its slowest speed andmove into the hole slowly, backing the bit out frequently to clear the chip. Then, increase the size of the bit in stages to open up the hole to yourdisired dimension. Rarely do I screw-up, but when I do it is because I haveallowed the hole to drift off-center, and NEVER because of blow-out. When turning the burl to its shape, again, I do not use a lathe. Instead, Iprefer to "turn" my inserts on my router table, using a home-made mandrelthat I rotate against the fence. This seems very handy to me, as theextreme high-speed cutting (plus the immediate ability to control bothdepth-of-cut and feed) almost obviate the dangers of blow-out. Besides, Iam then also set up (with a mere change of bits) to mortise the reel seatarea. I have never blown-out a burl except when I hit a truly fatal inclusion or alarge, internal crack of some sort (the kind of "surprise" we encounteroccasionally that nothing would have salvaged). Hope this helps. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Turning Burl I have had pretty good luck turning some reel seatinserts till I tried turning some cherry burl.I have had three pieces literally explode whileturning or drilling the center hole.Can anyone shed some light on this. Hate to wasteany more of that cherry burl.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from harms1@pa.net Wed Nov 7 07:29:58 2001 fA7DTuN01718 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 07:29:56 -0600 Subject: Re:Motor Plan Tony, I brush my finishes by hand, and have also found that dust problems areabout 95% related to residue on the rod itself, or (in the case of handbrushing) in the thinner, on one's hands, or in the brush. Moreover, if one is polishing at the end of the whole process, the littlelittle airborne dust that may adhere to the surface is not really a problemanyway. Airborne dust rarely "sinks" deeply into the finish, and does notpresent the kind of worry that we have with fully-embedded particles. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re:Motor Plan ChadNo can do here :))I use varnish and it has to go into a drying cabinet after.If I let it dry normally it would take a week for my varnish to dry.Now if you are using poly that would be fine.when I go from tube to cabinet I don't get dust.Much like your tube.But I have found that most dust in finishes is not caused by dust in theair,but is caused by dust left on the rod from the sanding process.Most makers will just wipe the blank down with mineral spirits ,but thatwon't do it.There is micro dust still left on the rod.took me along time to figure that one out.:))Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html from lblan@provide.net Wed Nov 7 07:54:55 2001 fA7DssN02309 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 07:54:54 -0600 with HTTP id 4128530 for ; Wed, 07 Nov2001 08:55:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Turning Burl Wow... I like the router table idea. What does your mandrellook like? Larry Blan On Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:16:04 -0500"WILLIAM HARMS" wrote: Tony, Forgive me if my answer here seems simplistic or naive.I may not quiteunderstand the difficulties you are having. When drilling the center hole in my burls (well, actuallyALL my woodinserts), I begin with the squared block and use my drillpress. I preferthe drill press to the lathe because I can feel what I'mdoing better. I simply position the block upright on the bed and starta small, pilot hole(3/16" extended-length bit). Set your drill press to itsslowest speed andmove into the hole slowly, backing the bit out frequentlyto clear the chip. Then, increase the size of the bit in stages to open upthe hole to yourdisired dimension. Rarely do I screw-up, but when I doit is because I haveallowed the hole to drift off-center, and NEVER becauseof blow-out. When turning the burl to its shape, again, I do not use alathe. Instead, Iprefer to "turn" my inserts on my router table, using ahome-made mandrelthat I rotate against the fence. This seems very handyto me, as theextreme high-speed cutting (plus the immediate ability tocontrol bothdepth-of-cut and feed) almost obviate the dangers ofblow-out. Besides, Iam then also set up (with a mere change of bits) tomortise the reel seatarea. I have never blown-out a burl except when I hit a trulyfatal inclusion or alarge, internal crack of some sort (the kind of"surprise" we encounteroccasionally that nothing would have salvaged). Hope this helps. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Spezio" Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:14 PMSubject: Turning Burl I have had pretty good luck turning some reel seatinserts till I tried turning some cherry burl.I have had three pieces literally explode whileturning or drilling the center hole.Can anyone shed some light on this. Hate to wasteany more of that cherry burl.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from harms1@pa.net Wed Nov 7 08:00:15 2001 fA7E0EN02647 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:00:14 -0600 Subject: Re: power fibers. All, Along with a great many other builders, I too, would insist that the depthof the power-fiber layer is an extremely important factor (particularly forbutt sections--somewhat less so for tips). Just as important, and very likely even moreso, would be the size and thedensity of those fibers. By "density," I mean their proximity to oneanother (or compactness), relative to the matrixof pithy material that separates them. In all, much of this can be discerned by careful visual comparison, but itcan also be estimated by feeling the "heft" of one culm as compared toothers. Heavy usually equals good, but compare only those culms that are ofequal diameter. Other guys, chime in. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: power fibers. I have been a list member for a lot of years==almost from thebeginning, but i don't ever recall a discussion about the depth of powerfibers when selecting bamboo. Garrison had his say about it, but itreally does not even begin to address the issue. The clearest statementis from George Maurer, who said that that the depth of power fibers oneshould select should be 1/2 the diameter of the female ferrule ID. I amnot sure that i would agree, because i have always felt that the pithserved a very important function of dampening vibrations and cushioningthe shear effect when the rod is bending. Placing the transition offiber/pith to full fiber at the ferrule point appears to me to present aweakness that manifests itself with fractures at the base of theferrule. Just curious as to what others might think.Ralph --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from flytyr@southshore.com Wed Nov 7 08:15:22 2001 fA7EFMN03348 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:15:22 -0600 fA7EFRx21558 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:15:27 -0600 Subject: Re: Turning Burl Dave,I am sure you nailed it down. Tiny cracks in the burl. Will try some superglue as you recommend. I do drill slow, tried different type of drill bits. I don't have a big problem turning as I have drilling. That is where I havelost most of the pieces.Really only had one explode while turning, the others while drilling.Thanks for your reply,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: Tony,Turning and boring some of the burls can be tricky sometimes. It sounds like you had a lot of hair line cracks in the wood.You run into this in burls. You have to look closely and if thereare cracks or fractures, soak the area with super glue. Let itget all the way down into the wood. Then spay it with someaccelerator to harden the glue. The main thing when turning orboring burls, is to take your time and take small cuts. You may want to send woods like that out and get themstabilized, before you start working on them. This is the bestthing to do with burls. I send a lot of my burls to be stabilized.They turn a lot easier when they have been stabilized. Dave L. http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Nov 7 08:18:50 2001 fA7EInN03784 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:18:49 -0600 (authenticated) Wed, 7 Nov 2001 06:18:34 -0800 Subject: Re: Turning burl Eamon, MD --- I'll bite... What's a parabolic bit? Harry Eamon Lee wrote: Jojo-The 64,000 dollar question. I use a parabolic bit as was suggested by youknow who and life has never been the same.Eamon -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from flytyr@southshore.com Wed Nov 7 08:32:50 2001 fA7EWoN04909 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:32:50 -0600 fA7EWlx24284; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:32:47 -0600 Subject: Re: Motor Plan Some do,Don't ask me how I know.I don't use Tack Cloths on rods now. I find wiping down with denatured alcoholworks for me.If I can find the type below I will give them another try, Jo Jo give me a brandname. Always used Tack Cloths on the furniture pieces I have madeTony FlyTyr@southshore.com Tony Young wrote: Somebody, I think Larry told me some have silicon on them. Be careful ofthese if that is so. Tony At 08:40 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Jojo DeLancier wrote: Works for me. All tack cloths are not created equal, either. Some claimtonever dry out -- and do. I've found one particular one to be good, but can'trecall the name at the moment. I buy them by the box. They come in alightblue box, and each of them have a blue spot in them. Dust? What dust? M-D From: "timothy troester" how about a tac cloth? i was doubtful at first. butthen there was the proof when i looked with magnifiersand then the end result after tacking...there it was.thanks jim bureau! timothy /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from baconrod@gsmrinc.com Wed Nov 7 08:33:23 2001 fA7EXMN05021 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:33:22 -0600 Subject: Re: blueing an lacquer Adam.I use a product called Aero Gloss on all my rod fittings from the winding check to the cap and ring. You can find Aero Gloss in a local hobby store. There is a thined version called Fuel Proofer under the Aero Gloss name. I use a Q-tip and use 2 coats. Over the last 40 years I've tried every thing from spraying to dipping and have found Aero Gloss easy to use. I gave a Demo on Electro etching at the Catskill Gathering and used the Aero Gloss on several pieces. The Aero gloss tends to darken the oxidation after being applied which is a Bonus.Best Hal. from beadman@mac.com Wed Nov 7 08:43:48 2001 fA7EhlN05870 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:43:47 -0600 Subject: RE: I forgot one At 8:14 AM -0600 on 11/6/01, Lamberson, William R. wrote about RE: Iforgot one I have tried guides on both sides of the rectangular quad described in themost recent Planing Form. The rod has a 5:4 ratio of height to width in thecross section. The rod is much stiffer with the guides on the narrow side.I don't remember the original question and that wasn't a PMQ so this maynotanswer it. Hi, Bill - that confirms what the math shows. The formula for stress is MC/I, where M is the moment (load), C is the distance of the farthest fibers from the centerline, and I is the moment of inertia, which for a rectangular beam is (bh3)/12 where b is base width, and h is height for the rectangular cross section. be 6M/100. The ratio of the two stresses (100/80), says that the rod with the guides on the narrow side will have 80 % less stress than the rod with the guides on the wide side. One interpretation of this is that it will therefore be 25% stiffer... The formula for deflection of the tip of a uniform cantilevered beam is - (WL3)/3EI where W is the weight hanging on the end, L is the length, E is modulus of elasticity (12,000,000 per Garrison), and I is the moment of inertia. M in the stress equation is WL, so substitution yields a new formula rectangular rod, regardless of which side has the guides, and E is a constant, the deflection is proportional to the moment of inertia. This is a long way of saying that for the given example, the rod with the guides on the wide side will bend 25% more than the other rod, with the same weight hung on the tip. The conclusion is that if you want to build a "poor man's rect", to coin a phrase, and like really fast action stiff rods, put the guides on the narrow side; if you like slow soft action rods, put the guides on the wide face. the rod to twist when cast, sloughing the bend to the other plane. This is to be expected. On a hex rod, when casting it with the flat facing in the direction of the cast, you actually have the least-stiff aspect of the rod doing the casting. Rotating the rod 30 degrees to either side would increase the stress by 15%, which could be interpreted as increasing the stiffness by 15%. But the rod will seek the least-stressful position in the cast, and therefore twist on you back to the flat-forward position. I think this may actually help casting be straighter, as the rod is "self-aligning", on a hex. On a rectangular rod, though, with guides on the narrow side, the rod will twist on you trying to seek it's lowest stress position... This is very much akin to the idea of finding the spine of a rod when mounting guides... Enough math for today - time to get back to rod building Claude from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Wed Nov 7 08:46:31 2001 [66.133.130.235] (may be forged)) fA7EkVN06813 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:46:31 -0600 sender ) Subject: Re: Turning Burl I was told by a knifemaker that wood can be stabilized using superglue. Theprocedure is similar to the impregnation process. Supposedly you coat thewood with superglue put it in a vacuum, then pressure. I used to have theprocedure but have since lost it. Sounds like it would work, but I havenever tried it. Tom----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Turning Burl Tony,Turning and boring some of the burls can be tricky sometimes. It sounds like you had a lot of hair line cracks in the wood.You run into this in burls. You have to look closely and if thereare cracks or fractures, soak the area with super glue. Let itget all the way down into the wood. Then spay it with someaccelerator to harden the glue. The main thing when turning orboring burls, is to take your time and take small cuts. You may want to send woods like that out and get themstabilized, before you start working on them. This is the bestthing to do with burls. I send a lot of my burls to be stabilized.They turn a lot easier when they have been stabilized. Dave L. http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from rextutor@about.com Wed Nov 7 08:51:52 2001 fA7EppN07257 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:51:52 -0600 (NPlex 5.5.029) 2001 06:45:04 -0800 Subject: ACKLAND delete List Serve Question,Why do I have to delete 20 messages for the 10th day in a row to get to rod making ? Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Nov 7 08:55:08 2001 fA7Et7N07559 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:55:07 -0600 Subject: Re: TA Jerry,you are right, the JW beveller looks to be a nice piece of gear. Correct meif I am wrong but I think it is an old Fred Flintstone design? Iparticularly liked the kitchen cabinet door for the back plate. Oak wouldlook gorgeous.Just kidding, Terry Jerry Foster wrote: That's enough Terry If you don't like the list or it's users then go away..for good. no onehere needs your kind ofadvice.. furthermore other than to tweak you back, no one gives a crapabout your beveler oryour rods..i'd probably not be going out on a limb to say that JW's onepass beveler willoutperform your secret special.. LISTUSERS (tony) part of the destruction terry does is because he isgoaded into it. Or shouldi say allowed to continue on.. silence would be a good response. When you see TA on the list just think (to paraphrase Brian) concreteaBUTment.. don't keeprunning your head into it.. it just gives him more time for his contraryopinions.. Terry if you know so much: write a book, if you're capable, and let ustake pot shots at you andyour all-knowing wonderfulness. jerry from LambersonW@missouri.edu Wed Nov 7 08:55:50 2001 fA7EtnN07716 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:55:49 -0600 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:55:56 -0600 Subject: RE: I forgot one Hi Claude, Thanks for information. This rod seems to cast very straight. I have notedthat in quads that I have built, and as I expected, it is really emphasizedin this rod. It does come at a price, the rod is quite heavy for a fourweight. Part of that is due to the #15 ferrule required because of itswidth. Regards, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: I forgot one At 8:14 AM -0600 on 11/6/01, Lamberson, William R. wrote about RE: Iforgotone I have tried guides on both sides of the rectangular quad described in themost recent Planing Form. The rod has a 5:4 ratio of height to width in the cross section. The rod is much stiffer with the guides on the narrow side.I don't remember the original question and that wasn't a PMQ so this may not answer it. Hi, Bill - that confirms what the math shows. The formula for stress is MC/I, where M is the moment (load), C is the distance of the farthest fibers from the centerline, and I is the moment of inertia, which for a rectangular beam is (bh3)/12 where b is base width, and h is height for the rectangular cross section. be 6M/100. 6M/80. The ratio of the two stresses (100/80), says that the rod with the guides on the narrow side will have 80 % less stress than the rod with the guides on the wide side. One interpretation of this is that it will therefore be 25% stiffer... The formula for deflection of the tip of a uniform cantilevered beam is - (WL3)/3EI where W is the weight hanging on the end, L is the length, E is modulus of elasticity (12,000,000 per Garrison), and I is the moment of inertia. M in the stress equation is WL, so substitution yields a new formula rectangular rod, regardless of which side has the guides, and E is a constant, the deflection is proportional to the moment of inertia. This is a long way of saying that for the given example, the rod with the guides on the wide side will bend 25% more than the other rod, with the same weight hung on the tip. The conclusion is that if you want to build a "poor man's rect", to coin a phrase, and like really fast action stiff rods, put the guides on the narrow side; if you like slow soft action rods, put the guides on the wide face. the rod to twist when cast, sloughing the bend to the other plane. This is to be expected. On a hex rod, when casting it with the flat facing in the direction of the cast, you actually have the least-stiff aspect of the rod doing the casting. Rotating the rod 30 degrees to either side would increase the stress by 15%, which could be interpreted as increasing the stiffness by 15%. But the rod will seek the least-stressful position in the cast, and therefore twist on you back to the flat-forward position. I think this may actually help casting be straighter, as the rod is "self-aligning", on a hex. On a rectangular rod, though, with guides on the narrow side, the rod will twist on you trying to seek it's lowest stress position... This is very much akin to the idea of finding the spine of a rod when mounting guides... Enough math for today - time to get back to rod building Claude from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 7 09:12:53 2001 fA7FCrN08897 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:12:53 -0600 KAA03946; Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying I haven't had any problem with PVC cement but I know vinyl's and the stufffishing worms are made of will soften paints. First saw this years ago whenpainted casting plugs were mixed with worms. Result: sticky yuck. Vinyl willdo the same. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the same but has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it in a poly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I think this happened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it must not be any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Nov 7 09:19:10 2001 fA7FJ8N09447 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:19:08 -0600 Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying Could be related. Liek to get to the bottom of it. Tony At 10:12 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I haven't had any problem with PVC cement but I know vinyl's and the stuff fishing worms are made of will soften paints. First saw this years ago when painted casting plugs were mixed with worms. Result: sticky yuck. Vinyl will do the same. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the same but has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it in apoly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I think thishappened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it must notbe any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Nov 7 09:35:04 2001 fA7FZ3N10568 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:35:03 -0600 Subject: redoing my home page All good and gentle people of the list.I'm redoing my home page and want to update and add to the links. If anybody wants to be on the page please advise off list. TIA. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from harms1@pa.net Wed Nov 7 09:38:59 2001 fA7FcwN10983 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:38:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Turning Burl Larry, Well, it looks like one of the tools that Tom Smithwick (God love him--hereally IS one of my favorite people) would have made. That is, it'ssomething that looks like hell, but works perfectly! I use a 12" length of threaded rod, of 3/8" diameter. The wood block (with3/8" hole) is slipped onto the rod and mounted at its center. (I leave myblocks about 4" long, and cut to length after final shaping.) The blockwill be fixed in place with nuts drawn tightly against either end of thewood. But first, turn down the OD of these nuts to a diameter just lessthan that of the narrowest wood spacer you will be "turning." You don'twant your router bit to be chewing into steel nuts as you approach yourfinal dimensions. Next, near each, outermost end of the 12" rod, I mount a small, plasticwheel (3/8" hole X 1 3/4" OD). These can be obtained at any localhardware store. Each of these wheels is held tightly in place with washersand nuts on either side. You should now have maybe 2 1/2" of "empty space" between the block, ateachof its ends, and the wheels out at the ends of the rod. This space isimportant, as it will give you plenty of room to move the workpiece acrossthe router bit--starting in before the wood, and running right off its otherend. You can use a straight bit, as I do, or you can use a concave bit ofsome sort, if you prefer. It does't seem to matter, except that thestraight bits are less expensive to buy. The idea of the two wheels at the ends of the rod, of course, is that (asyou press these against the fence and slide the jig across the router bit)the wheels hold the entire jig a uniform distance away from both the routerfence and the table top. The wheels guarantee that the whole business willform a concentric "dowell," and, being spaced about 10" apart, they tend tominimize whatever minute errors in concentricity they may have. You begin with a guess as to where to set the fence, starting with a seriesof passes that round-off only the outer corners of the block. Uponcompleting each series of passes at a given fence setting, you move thefence farther and farther back. Keep a caliper of some sort very near athand, just as you would do if you were working on a lathe. Lastly, when you have reached you final dimensions (slightly larger,actually, because the router technique leaves miniscule ridges that stillneed to be sanded out--which could be minimized if you used aconcave-radiused bit), change over to the thumbnail bit you will need foryour reel-foot mortise. Line the bit up with the wood spacer as best you can, turn on the router,hold your breath, and move the dowell into the cutting edge. I always beginwith the shallowest possible pass first, just to see how I'm lined up. Ofcourse, you won't have more that a couple opportunities to make changes inalignment before you will have arrived at your maximum, intended depth. You might screw up one wood spacer in learning the technique, but I'll betyou won't screw up two. Anyhow, practice a little on some "junk" wood. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Turning Burl Wow... I like the router table idea. What does your mandrellook like? Larry Blan On Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:16:04 -0500"WILLIAM HARMS" wrote: Tony, from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 7 09:42:20 2001 fA7FgJN11315 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:42:19 -0600 KAA31706; Rodmakers Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying to make the case look like something other than a plumbers dream andassemble as needed. The last two rods were finished with Behlens "RockHard Table Top Varnish". I assembled the PVC cases and put the rods inthem within an hour of assembly. They have been in there for over a monthwithout any noticible affect to the varnish. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Could be related. Liek to get to the bottom of it. Tony At 10:12 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I haven't had any problem with PVC cement but I know vinyl's and the stuff fishing worms are made of will soften paints. First saw this years ago when painted casting plugs were mixed with worms. Result: sticky yuck. Vinyl will do the same. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the same but has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it in apoly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I think thishappened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it must notbe any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from boyko@peoplepc.com Wed Nov 7 09:45:08 2001 fA7Fj8N11590 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:45:08 -0600 -0800 Subject: Re: Node Press Chad, where can I get address or Phone number for Nolan Supply, Lew =boyko@peoplepc.com Subject: Node Press handle on sale now for $8.84. #52-152-6S, 300# holding cap. Chad, where can I get address or Phone= ----- Original Message ----- chadwigham = Sent: Tuesday, November 06, = PMSubject: Node Press Nolan Supply has the cam handle on sale now for $8.84. #52-152-6S, = holding cap. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Nov 7 09:46:39 2001 fA7FkcN11834 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:46:38 -0600 Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying Rodmakers I guess you used the plumber's glue for the fittings? Tony At 10:42 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: lathe to make the case look like something other than a plumbers dreamand assemble as needed. The last two rods were finished with Behlens "Rock Hard Table Top Varnish". I assembled the PVC cases and put the rods in them within an hour of assembly. They have been in there for over a month without any noticible affect to the varnish. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Could be related. Liek to get to the bottom of it. Tony At 10:12 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I haven't had any problem with PVC cement but I know vinyl's and thestufffishing worms are made of will soften paints. First saw this years agowhen painted casting plugs were mixed with worms. Result: stickyyuck. Vinyl will do the same. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the samebut has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it in apoly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I think thishappened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it mustnotbe any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from harms1@pa.net Wed Nov 7 09:47:46 2001 fA7FljN12022 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:47:45 -0600 "Ralph W. Moon" Subject: Re: power fibers. John, I am interested in the fluting technique, but as I like the Urac 185 glue aswell, I am concerned about the likelihood of leaving glue in the hollowedareas. I generally slather the glue on the strips of my "standard-built"rods, but I'm sure this wouldn't be satisfactory for fluted rods. What doyou do to manage these concerns? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers. Adam,I have built a few fluted rods and I think they are a little stiffer thanthe other types. Mine (butts) are fluted all the way down except at theferrule. I would leave it solid about 1/2" below the female ferrule thentaper to the max. hollowed depth. I have really put mine thru the millfishing them. Can't tell you if they become oval or not but you really donotice the difference in swing weight or feel.Also, don't wrap your guides too tight! I can't tell you what wallthickness to go to at the bottom of the flute-I always just listen to my gutfeelings but my next one I intend to go to 0.060". I use Urac 185 glue.Good luck! John ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers. Ralph, Just talking out loud here, I am undecided at best about hollow building butI am going to give it a go. I have some of the best rodmakers, you know whoyou are, willing to give me tips on how to do it. So I am sure when I domake a hollow rod I will at least be doing it right. Now what I have noticedis that when I was handling an 8.5' 5 wt that was hollow built all the wayup into the tips the swing weight and the weight in the hand was much lessthen that of the 8' 5wt I hand built. Now pith was put there by the good lord but then again so was enamel. And Ibelieve that its function was to transport water. The outer powerfibres alsotransport water but not a well as the inner fibers. But does the pith reallycontribute to the casting of a rod? And from what I understand about hollow building if damns are leftthroughout the blank the ovoid deformation of the blank is minimized. I havenot heard if fluting completely through the cane causes oval deformation ornot. Winstons and Powells rods held up pretty well from what I understand. So hollow building or solid building I guess I will make a few and decide.But the advantages of Pith? I still need to think about that one. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers. Adam,I may tromp on a lot of toes here. I do not in any way like hollowbuiltrods. The primary reason is that we are going back to a hollow tubularconstruction and a hollow tube deforms significantly when bent. Second,oscillation of the rod is increased. Thirdly its purpose is dubious atbest. If to cut weight in a rod, who really cares? Bamboo in the preferredsizes of rod is light enough and if the rod is balanced weight is virtuallynegligible. Strength? It has to be weaker with less gluing surface. I stated in my first missive that the pith does serve a function. Else whydid the Creator make bamboo with pith? The cushion of pith allows the rodto bend, yet retain its structural integrity. That is it does deform asmuch, and I can tell you deformation is destructive of a good cast Adam Vigil wrote: Ralph,What size rods are we talking about here? I tend think that the pithwouldcan of break down and since it is at the center it provided littleuse. Ithink I got this from Marinaro "In the Ring...". And how about takingoutall the pith by hollow building? of course dimension would have to changetoaccount for hollowing.Adam--http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium\. --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 7 09:59:58 2001 fA7FxvN13590 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:59:57 -0600 Rodmakers Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying I guess we had better make sure we are talking about the same thing. The"plumber's glue" I use is the stuff called PVC cement sold alongside the PVCtubes. There are usually several different types, (some colored, some forthe hot water type). I use the common PVC type. Lot's of acetone. Is thiswhat you are referring to? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: I guess you used the plumber's glue for the fittings? Tony At 10:42 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: lathe to make the case look like something other than a plumbers dreamand assemble as needed. The last two rods were finished with Behlens "Rock Hard Table Top Varnish". I assembled the PVC cases and put the rods in them within an hour of assembly. They have been in there for over a month without any noticible affect to the varnish. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Could be related. Liek to get to the bottom of it. Tony At 10:12 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I haven't had any problem with PVC cement but I know vinyl's and thestufffishing worms are made of will soften paints. First saw this years agowhen painted casting plugs were mixed with worms. Result: stickyyuck. Vinyl will do the same. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the samebut has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it in apoly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I think thishappened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it mustnotbe any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Nov 7 10:04:28 2001 fA7G4PN14614 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:04:25 -0600 Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying Rodmakers That's the one. Clear or baby blue. At 10:54 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I guess we had better make sure we are talking about the same thing. The "plumber's glue" I use is the stuff called PVC cement sold alongside the PVC tubes. There are usually several different types, (some colored, some acetone. Is this what you are referring to? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: I guess you used the plumber's glue for the fittings? Tony At 10:42 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: lathe to make the case look like something other than a plumbers dreamandassemble as needed. The last two rods were finished with Behlens "RockHard Table Top Varnish". I assembled the PVC cases and put the rods inthem within an hour of assembly. They have been in there for over amonthwithout any noticible affect to the varnish. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Could be related. Liek to get to the bottom of it. Tony At 10:12 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I haven't had any problem with PVC cement but I know vinyl's and thestufffishing worms are made of will soften paints. First saw this years agowhen painted casting plugs were mixed with worms. Result: stickyyuck. Vinyl will do the same. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the same but has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it in apoly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I think this happened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it mustnotbe any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /********************************************************************** ***/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /********************************************************************** ***/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from steve@hamiltonrods.com Wed Nov 7 10:09:14 2001 fA7G9DN15846 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:09:13 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:09:59 -0500 Subject: Cracked ferrule FILETIME=[A6341DF0:01C167A6] fA7G9DN15847 I made a one-tip rod and went about a year without using it. It's been in itstube during that time. I took it out the other day and noticed that the maleferrule had split all along it's length. I've never seen that before--but it'smaking me wonder if my other rods will do the same thing. What would have caused that? An air pocket? Expansion of the glue (I'm usingEpoxy)? Moisture in the bamboo? I don't recall the specifics of this rod, but I'm not one who forces the ferruleon really tightly. --Steve from harms1@pa.net Wed Nov 7 10:13:05 2001 fA7GD4N16988 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:13:04 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:11:31 - Subject: Fw: power fibers. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers. John, The idea of pith being important to the casting qualities of a fly roddoesn't have to do with a rod's potential power (not that you had impliedthis), for pith is extremely unlikely to contribute to a rod's overall"strength". Actually, we usually want to minimize the pith-to-fiber ratioas much as possible in selecting our culms for use. The perceived VALUE of pith, on the other hand, is that the relativelysofter texture of pith provides an important "shock absorber" effect upon(or just after) delivering the stored power of a cast. Pith is helpful inanother way, of course, by providing a glueing surface that extends to thecenter of the rod, but that's another issue. The "shock-absorber" effect is very important in dampening what would, otherwise, be a rod's tendency tocontinue bouncing at the end of a cast. Mine is a very unscientific explanation of something that the engineersamong us can account for much more accurately. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "John Long" Cc: "RodmakersPost" Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:39 PMSubject: Re: power fibers. Adam,I have built a few fluted rods and I think they are a little stiffer thanthe other types. Mine (butts) are fluted all the way down except at theferrule. I would leave it solid about 1/2" below the female ferrule thentaper to the max. hollowed depth. I have really put mine thru the millfishing them. Can't tell you if they become oval or not but you really donotice the difference in swing weight or feel.Also, don't wrap your guides too tight! I can't tell you what wallthickness to go to at the bottom of the flute-I always just listen to my gut feelings but my next one I intend to go to 0.060". I use Urac 185 glue.Good luck! John ----- Original Message -----From: Adam VigilSent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:06 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: power fibers. Ralph, Just talking out loud here, I am undecided at best about hollow building but I am going to give it a go. I have some of the best rodmakers, you know who you are, willing to give me tips on how to do it. So I am sure when I domake a hollow rod I will at least be doing it right. Now what I have noticed is that when I was handling an 8.5' 5 wt that was hollow built all the wayup into the tips the swing weight and the weight in the hand was much lessthen that of the 8' 5wt I hand built. Now pith was put there by the good lord but then again so was enamel. And I believe that its function was to transport water. The outer powerfibres also transport water but not a well as the inner fibers. But does the pith really contribute to the casting of a rod? And from what I understand about hollow building if damns are leftthroughout the blank the ovoid deformation of the blank is minimized. I have not heard if fluting completely through the cane causes oval deformation or not. Winstons and Powells rods held up pretty well from what I understand. So hollow building or solid building I guess I will make a few and decide. But the advantages of Pith? I still need to think about that one. Adam----- Original Message -----From: Ralph W. Moon Cc: Rodmakers Subject: Re: power fibers. Adam,I may tromp on a lot of toes here. I do not in any way like hollowbuiltrods. The primary reason is that we are going back to a hollow tubularconstruction and a hollow tube deforms significantly when bent. Second,oscillation of the rod is increased. Thirdly its purpose is dubious atbest. If to cut weight in a rod, who really cares? Bamboo in the preferred sizes of rod is light enough and if the rod is balanced weight is virtually negligible. Strength? It has to be weaker with less gluing surface. I stated in my first missive that the pith does serve a function. Else why did the Creator make bamboo with pith? The cushion of pith allows the rodto bend, yet retain its structural integrity. That is it does deform asmuch, and I can tell you deformation is destructive of a good cast Adam Vigil wrote: Ralph,What size rods are we talking about here? I tend think that the pithwouldcan of break down and since it is at the center it provided littleuse. Ithink I got this from Marinaro "In the Ring...". And how about taking outall the pith by hollow building? of course dimension would have to change toaccount for hollowing.Adam-- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium. --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 7 10:21:51 2001 fA7GLoN19174 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:21:50 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:21:47 -0500 Subject: good rod, bad rod I would like to start a new thread. I've been working on a taper and have beenrevisiting the archives. This time something occurred to me. Whatdifferentiates a good rod from a bad one. In looking at the stress curves ofdifferent rods, most show the greatest stress near the tip but some showthe greatest stress at the butt. Some are designed to distribute the stressevenly across the rod. Some have a uniformly increasing diameter withvarious slopes to the change while others have the "parabolic" change. Someare "smooth" tapers while others have multiple radical changes in slope ofthe taper. What I am getting at is that looking at the curves, basically any "stick" ofbamboo would fall into near/on one of these tapers. There is a pretty widelatitude between the "fast" rods in the archive and the "slow" ones. In otherwords, give a monkey a knife and some strips of bamboo. Let him whittlethem and glue the results together and (within reason) it would fit within therange of tapers in the archive when matched to the right(?) line. So, whatmakes a good taper? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Nov 7 10:27:05 2001 fA7GR4N20487 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:27:04 -0600 (authenticated) Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:26:52 -0800 Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule Steve Zimmerman wrote: I made a one-tip rod and went about a year without using it. It's been in itstube during that time. I took it out the other day and noticed that the maleferrule had split all along it's length. I've never seen that before--but it'smaking me wonder if my other rods will do the same thing. What would have caused that? An air pocket? Expansion of the glue (I'musing Epoxy)? Moisture in the bamboo? I don't recall the specifics of this rod, but I'm not one who forces theferrule on really tightly. --Steve Steve, Was this a quality nickel silver ferrule? Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from JNL123141@msn.com Wed Nov 7 10:34:31 2001 fA7GYUN22503 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:34:30 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:34:32 -0800 Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule FILETIME=[1401AD40:01C167AA] I would go with moisture in the cane. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Cracked ferrule I made a one-tip rod and went about a year without using it. It's been in=its tube during that time. I took it out the other day and noticed that =the male ferrule had split all along it's length. I've never seen that be=fore--but it's making me wonder if my other rods will do the same thing. What would have caused that? An air pocket? Expansion of the glue (I'm us=ing Epoxy)? Moisture in the bamboo? I don't recall the specifics of this rod, but I'm not one who forces the =ferrule on really tightly. --Steve I would gowit= ----- Original Message ----- From: =Steve Zimmerman Sent:Wednes=day, November 07, 2001 11:12 AM = r=od and went about a year without using it. It's been in its tube during t=hat time. I took it out the other day and noticed that the male ferrule h=ad split all along it's length. I've never seen that before--but it's mak=ing me wonder if my other rods will do the same thing.What would=have caused that? An air pocket? Expansion of the glue (I'm using Epoxy)?=Moisture in the bamboo?I don't recall the specifics of this rod,=but I'm not one who forces the ferrule on really tightly.--Steve= from jvswan@earthlink.net Wed Nov 7 10:34:36 2001 fA7GYZN22535 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:34:35 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Subject: Reel seat spacer wood Hi all, All of these questions about burl wood and Bill's slick method for makingreel seat spacers got me thinking about the wood. For those of you who useyour own wood, do you have to do anything to prepare it? I have quite a bitof nice cherry wood from my back yard that I thought would make nicespacers. However, I don't know if I need to dry it first, or if a season inmy car port is sufficient. Are there any opinions out there (that'sfunny!)? Thanks, Jason from steve@hamiltonrods.com Wed Nov 7 10:38:22 2001 fA7GcLN23800 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:38:22 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:39:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule FILETIME=[B622F4D0:01C167AA] fA7GcMN23803 Harry Boyd wrote: Was this a quality nickel silver ferrule? Yes, it is--made by a quality ferrule maker who frequents this list, no less.My original suspicion is *not* a faulty ferrule. --Steve from JNL123141@msn.com Wed Nov 7 10:40:50 2001 fA7GenN24540 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:40:49 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:40:51 -0800 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying FILETIME=[F61B2580:01C167AA] Yes! That happened to me. I now use PU glue. ----- Original Message ----- Rodmake=rsSubject: Re: New question -- varnish drying That's the one. Clear or baby blue. At 10:54 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I guess we had better make sure we are talking about the same thing. Th= e "plumber's glue" I use is the stuff called PVC cement sold alongside thePVC tubes. There are usually several different types, (some colored, so= me acetone. Is this what you are referring to? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: I guess you used the plumber's glue for the fittings? Tony At 10:42 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: the lathe to make the case look like something other than a plumbers dream= and assemble as needed. The last two rods were finished with Behlens "Roc= k Hard Table Top Varnish". I assembled the PVC cases and put the rods i= n them within an hour of assembly. They have been in there for over a m= onth without any noticible affect to the varnish. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Could be related. Liek to get to the bottom of it. Tony At 10:12 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I haven't had any problem with PVC cement but I know vinyl's and the= stuff fishing worms are made of will soften paints. First saw this years = ago when painted casting plugs were mixed with worms. Result: stickyyuck. Vinyl will do the same. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the same but has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it i= n a poly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I thi= nk this happened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it mu= st not be any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*******************************************************************= *** ***/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*******************************************************************= *** ***/ /*********************************************************************= ****/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*********************************************************************= ****/ /***********************************************************************= **/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/***********************************************************************= **/ /************************************************************************=*/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/************************************************************************=*/ Yes! Thathapp= john&nb= fbcwin@3g.quik.com;= Rodmakers Subject: Re:New = r baby blue.At 10:54 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.comwrote:= thi= = w=hat you are referring guess you used the plumber's glue for the wrote:&= las= Va= &g= Co= 0500, k5= = h= ly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I think&= mearest= &= &g= &g= = gt; sit= *******************************************************************/&= www.iinet.ne= po= ************************************************************************/=/****************************************************************= www.iinet=.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html"Make everything as simple aspossibl=e, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/**************=***********************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Nov 7 10:48:01 2001 fA7GlxN26540 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:48:00 -0600 Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying "RodmakersPost" That's about confirmed it. I knew the glue could jellify the varnish but I'd have thought if you couldn't smell it, it was ok but I was wrong obviously.Thanks John. Tony At 11:40 AM 11/7/01 -0500, John Long wrote: Yes! That happened to me. I now use PU glue. john ----- Original Message -----From: Tony YoungSent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:08 AM Cc: k5vkq@ix.netcom.com; k5vkq@ix.netcom.com; fbcwin@3g.quik.com;RodmakersSubject: Re: New question -- varnish drying That's the one. Clear or baby blue. At 10:54 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I guess we had better make sure we are talking about the same thing. The"plumber's glue" I use is the stuff called PVC cement sold alongside thePVC tubes. There are usually several different types, (some colored,some acetone. Is this what you are referring to? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: I guess you used the plumber's glue for the fittings? Tony At 10:42 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: lathe to make the case look like something other than a plumbersdream and assemble as needed. The last two rods were finished with Behlens"RockHard Table Top Varnish". I assembled the PVC cases and put the rodsinthem within an hour of assembly. They have been in there for over a month without any noticible affect to the varnish. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Could be related. Liek to get to the bottom of it. Tony At 10:12 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I haven't had any problem with PVC cement but I know vinyl's and the stuff fishing worms are made of will soften paints. First saw this yearsagowhen painted casting plugs were mixed with worms. Result: stickyyuck. Vinyl will do the same. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the same but has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it in apoly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I think this happened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it must not be any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /********************************************************************** ***/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /********************************************************************** ***/ /********************************************************************** ***/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /********************************************************************** ***/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from harms1@pa.net Wed Nov 7 10:51:26 2001 fA7GpQN27563 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:51:26 -0600 Subject: Re: Reel seat spacer wood Jason, "Are there any opinions out there?" Yer a regular comedian, ya know it? Actually, I don't have a strong opinion, but I have been told to cut mypieces (or slabs) into slices of about 1 1/8" thick. Allow these toair-dry, with good circulation all around and in moderate temps. (out ofsunlight) at the rate of 1 year per inch of thickness. You'll hear of other techniques too, that might be better or quicker. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Reel seat spacer wood Hi all, All of these questions about burl wood and Bill's slick method for makingreel seat spacers got me thinking about the wood. For those of you who use your own wood, do you have to do anything to prepare it? I have quite a bit of nice cherry wood from my back yard that I thought would make nicespacers. However, I don't know if I need to dry it first, or if a season in my car port is sufficient. Are there any opinions out there (that'sfunny!)? Thanks, Jason from JNL123141@msn.com Wed Nov 7 10:53:55 2001 fA7GrrN28684 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:53:53 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:53:55 -0800 "Ralph W. Moon" Subject: Re: power fibers. FILETIME=[C96C0520:01C167AC] I slop glue on with a tooth brush then brush length wise. There is proba=bly some glue getting into the flutes but not enough to worry about. No = The first fluted rod I did was fluted the entire length and I could see t=hru it end to end and actually breathe thru it. Of course it broke flush=at the female ferrule but I put in a wood shaft from a Q-tip to fill the=void (with 5 min epoxy) and the rod has been fine ever since. I think w=hat made it break in the first place more than anything else was that my =ferrule wraps were very tight. Anyway, I have fished hell out of the rod= john ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers. John, I am interested in the fluting technique, but as I like the Urac 185 glue=aswell, I am concerned about the likelihood of leaving glue in the hollowedareas. I generally slather the glue on the strips of my "standard- built"rods, but I'm sure this wouldn't be satisfactory for fluted rods. What d=oyou do to manage these concerns? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers. Adam,I have built a few fluted rods and I think they are a little stiffer thanthe other types. Mine (butts) are fluted all the way down except at theferrule. I would leave it solid about 1/2" below the female ferrule thentaper to the max. hollowed depth. I have really put mine thru the millfishing them. Can't tell you if they become oval or not but you really d=onotice the difference in swing weight or feel.Also, don't wrap your guides too tight! I can't tell you what wallthickness to go to at the bottom of the flute-I always just listen to my =gutfeelings but my next one I intend to go to 0.060". I use Urac 185 glue.Good luck! John ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers. Ralph, Just talking out loud here, I am undecided at best about hollow building =butI am going to give it a go. I have some of the best rodmakers, you know w=hoyou are, willing to give me tips on how to do it. So I am sure when I domake a hollow rod I will at least be doing it right. Now what I have noti=cedis that when I was handling an 8.5' 5 wt that was hollow built all the wa=yup into the tips the swing weight and the weight in the hand was much les=sthen that of the 8' 5wt I hand built. Now pith was put there by the good lord but then again so was enamel. And=Ibelieve that its function was to transport water. The outer powerfibres a=lsotransport water but not a well as the inner fibers. But does the pith rea=llycontribute to the casting of a rod? And from what I understand about hollow building if damns are leftthroughout the blank the ovoid deformation of the blank is minimized. I h=avenot heard if fluting completely through the cane causes oval deformation =ornot. Winstons and Powells rods held up pretty well from what I understand=\. So hollow building or solid building I guess I will make a few and decid=e.But the advantages of Pith? I still need to think about that one. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers. Adam,I may tromp on a lot of toes here. I do not in any way like hollowbuiltrods. The primary reason is that we are going back to a hollow tubularconstruction and a hollow tube deforms significantly when bent. Second,oscillation of the rod is increased. Thirdly its purpose is dubious atbest. If to cut weight in a rod, who really cares? Bamboo in the prefer=redsizes of rod is light enough and if the rod is balanced weight is virtual=lynegligible. Strength? It has to be weaker with less gluing surface. I stated in my first missive that the pith does serve a function. Else w=hydid the Creator make bamboo with pith? The cushion of pith allows the ro=dto bend, yet retain its structural integrity. That is it does deform asmuch, and I can tell you deformation is destructive of a good cast Adam Vigil wrote: Ralph,What size rods are we talking about here? I tend think that the pit=hwouldcan of break down and since it is at the center it provided littleuse. Ithink I got this from Marinaro "In the Ring...". And how about taki=ngoutall the pith by hollow building? of course dimension would have to cha=ngetoaccount for hollowing.Adam--http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium\. --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium to fill the void (with 5 min epoxy) and the rod has been fine ever since.= =---- Original Message ----- From: WILLIAM HARMS Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:49 Adam Vig=il; Ralph W. Moon Cc:Rodmak=ersPost Subject: Re: powerf= fluting=technique, but as I like the Urac 185 glue aswell, I am concerned ab= rally slather the glue on the strips of my "standard-built"rods, but = you do to manage these concerns?cheers, Bill-----Ori=ginal Message ----- From: "John Long" nt: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:39 PMSubject: Re: powerfibers.Adam,I have built a few fluted rods and I think they are a lit= /2" below the female ferrule thentaper to the max. holloweddepth.&nb= l you if they become oval or not but you really donotice the differen=ce in swing weight or feel.Also, don't wrap your guides too tight!&nb=sp; I can't tell you what wallthickness to go to at the bottom of the=flute-I always just listen to my gutfeelings but my next one I inten= luck!John----- Original Message -----From: Adam VigilSent: Tuesday,= RodmakersSubjec=t: Re: power fibers.Ralph,Just talking out loud here, I a=m undecided at best about hollow building butI am going to give it a =go. I have some of the best rodmakers, you know whoyou are, willing t=o give me tips on how to do it. So I am sure when I domake a hollow r=od I will at least be doing it right. Now what I have noticedis that =when I was handling an 8.5' 5 wt that was hollow built all the wayup =into the tips the swing weight and the weight in the hand was much lessthen that of the 8' 5wt I hand built.Now pith was put there by =the good lord but then again so was enamel. And Ibelieve that its fun=ction was to transport water. The outer powerfibres alsotransportwat=er but not a well as the inner fibers. But does the pith reallycontri=bute to the casting of a rod?And from what I understand abouthol=low building if damns are leftthroughout the blank the ovoid deformat=ion of the blank is minimized. I havenot heard if fluting completely =through the cane causes oval deformation ornot. Winstons and Powells=rods held up pretty well from what I understand.So hollow buildin= VigilCc: RodmakersSent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 4:41PMSubject: R=e: power fibers.Adam,I may tromp on a lot of toeshere.&n= on is that we are going back to a hollow tubularconstruction and a ho= eferredsizes of rod is light enough and if the rod is balanced weight= th less gluing surface.I stated in my first missive that the pith= wit= an tell you deformation is destructive of a good castAdam Vigil w=rote:Ralph,What size rods are we talking about here? I tend think= ter it provided littleuse. Ithink I got this from Marinaro "In the Ri=ng...". And how about takingoutall the pith by hollow building? of co=urse dimension would have to changetoaccount forhollowing.Adam--=http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium.-- http://www=.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from rmoon@ida.net Wed Nov 7 11:05:19 2001 fA7H5IN01898 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:05:18 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod Onis, I could be facetious and answer your question, "one I designed", but actia;;u I don't know if there is such a thing as a bad rod. I made a very slow parabolic taper once, and when an expert casting instructor tried it and handed it back with the comment "It's no damned good." I just figured I'd keep it for myself. Then another caster tried it and nearly broke my arm twisting it to sell to him. He claimed he could cast a full fly line with little effort. I think that the differentiation between good and bad is largely a subjective one. On the other hand I once cast a very reknowned rod maker's rod and thought it a piece of crap, but I noticed that many of the guys on the list have made that same taper. amd praised it. Go figure Ralph k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: So, what makes a good taper? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com . -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium >FromGrayson.Davis@valpo.edu Wed Nov 7 11:16:24 2001 Received: from Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: cutting a bead in NS? Message- ID:Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:15:40-0600 (Central Standard Time) Priority: NORMAL X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I made a bit which I thoughtshould suffice to cut a bead (about 0.1" across) into the NS tube which wasspinning between centers in my lathe. Everything was working well until I gotnearly deep enough to finish the cut. At that point, the resistance to feedingincreased. I (being inexperienced), thought that was due to increased area ofthe bit contacting the NS. There was a tiny bit of smoking, so I applied lube(STP). That stopped the smoke, so I fed some more. Just then, the bit dug inand the lathe stalled. No damage to the lathe and only minor damage to theturning. I think this might be due to one or two errors. 1) Top of bit too highon turning. I lined it up by eyeball with the point of the live center (before theturning went in), and thought I had it dead on center or a little below. Wasthat not correct? Is there a better way to do it? 2) Rake angle on thebottom too small. Again, by eyeball, I thought I had about 8 degrees, but nowI'm not so sure. (The top of the bit was flat, which is what my book says isright for brass.) Any hints? ---------------------------------------- - Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.edu Valparaiso University >Fromstetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed Nov 7 11:21:37 2001 Received: from fA7HLaN06059 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 of searchable Rodmakers archives Message-ID: stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Thisis kind of a "heads up" for those who make use of the searchable listarchives I put up. As the size of the archives grows (now almost 50,000messages and 70 Megabytes) I can see the day coming when my littlehomemade search tool will not be adequate, and/or the day when the bosswill say "Get that crap off the server." I'm hoping that someone can takeover this project and give it a better home with a better set of tools. In themean time I'll continue the monthly updates. Its not much work, just that itsgrowing too big to continue like this forever....................................................................... Frank Stetzer "...a cheerfulcomrade is better stetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employedby, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke, Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. > from avyoung@iinet.net.au WedNov 7 11:29:47 2001 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (symphony- X-Sender:avyoung@mail.iinet.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu From: Tony Young 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I don't think you were doingthis but you weren't trying to part or close to part between centers wereyou? Was the over hang of the cutter too long causing chatter or too low?Was the piece chucked well? Was the cutter square to the work, meaning ifthe cutter was very thin did it cut straight to the piece or cause extrafriction from being a little squewd Tony At 11:15 AM 11/7/01 -0600,Grayson Davis wrote: I made a bit which I thought should suffice to cut a bead(about 0.1" across) into the NS tube which was spinningbetween centers in my lathe. Everything was working welluntil I got nearly deep enough to finish the cut. Atthat point, the resistance to feeding increased. I (beinginexperienced), thought that was due to increased area ofthe bit contacting the NS. There was a tiny bit ofsmoking, so I applied lube (STP). That stopped the smoke,so I fed some more. Just then, the bit dug in and thelathe stalled. No damage to the lathe and only minor damageto the turning. I think this might be due to one or twoerrors. 1) Top of bit too high on turning. I lined it up byeyeball with the point of the live center (before theturning went in), and thought I had it dead on center or alittle below. Was that not correct? Is there a better wayto do it? 2) Rake angle on the bottom too small. Again, by eyeball,I thought I had about 8 degrees, but now I'm not so sure.(The top of the bit was flat, which is what my book says isright for brass.) Any hints?-----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from flytyr@southshore.com Wed Nov 7 11:33:32 2001 fA7HXVN09278 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:33:31 -0600 fA7HXRx19778; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:33:27 -0600 Subject: Re: cutting a bead in NS? I just mentioned this to another list member a while ago. Itrelates to centering the tool bit.Will post it now.snipI center the bit using the old tool makers secret. Take asmall steel scale. Hold it up against the work piece.With the cross feed, feed the tool bit up against thescale. The bit is then adjusted till the scale sitsvertical.If the top of the scale leans toward you , the bit islow, if the top of the scale leans away from you then thebit is too high. The scale should be vertical for the bitto be centered on the work piece. Oh Yes, this will onlywork with round stock.snip Grayson Davis wrote: I made a bit which I thought should suffice to cut a bead(about 0.1" across) into the NS tube which was spinningbetween centers in my lathe. Everything was working welluntil I got nearly deep enough to finish the cut. Atthat point, the resistance to feeding increased. I (beinginexperienced), thought that was due to increased area ofthe bit contacting the NS. There was a tiny bit ofsmoking, so I applied lube (STP). That stopped the smoke,so I fed some more. Just then, the bit dug in and thelathe stalled. No damage to the lathe and only minor damageto the turning. I think this might be due to one or twoerrors. 1) Top of bit too high on turning. I lined it up byeyeball with the point of the live center (before theturning went in), and thought I had it dead on center or alittle below. Was that not correct? Is there a better wayto do it? 2) Rake angle on the bottom too small. Again, by eyeball,I thought I had about 8 degrees, but now I'm not so sure.(The top of the bit was flat, which is what my book says isright for brass.) Any hints?-----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 7 11:41:40 2001 fA7HfdN11459 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:41:39 -0600 Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod Ok! Let me rephrase the question! Let's say a quiz show host gave youenough money to buy any rod you wanted, new or old. You could only use it important, why? Yes, it is subjective. However, as an example, if 95% of flycasters preferreda faster rod, faster rod tapers would be percieved as "better" tapers. The"best" tapers are then the ones that are most sought after. I guess thisquestion could be partially answered by watching Ebay to find out which rodssell for the most money but this doesn't answer the question of why. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I would like to start a new thread. I've been working on a taper and havebeen revisiting the archives. This time something occurred to me. Whatdifferentiates a good rod from a bad one. In looking at the stress curves ofdifferent rods, most show the greatest stress near the tip but some showthe greatest stress at the butt. Some are designed to distribute the stressevenly across the rod. Some have a uniformly increasing diameter withvarious slopes to the change while others have the "parabolic" change. Someare "smooth" tapers while others have multiple radical changes in slope ofthe taper. What I am getting at is that looking at the curves, basically any "stick" ofbamboo would fall into near/on one of these tapers. There is a pretty widelatitude between the "fast" rods in the archive and the "slow" ones. In otherwords, give a monkey a knife and some strips of bamboo. Let him whittlethem and glue the results together and (within reason) it would fit within therange of tapers in the archive when matched to the right(?) line. So, whatmakes a good taper? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Wed Nov 7 11:57:12 2001 fA7HvBN15295 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:57:11 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:57:12 -0600 pri.pacificare.com UT (Tumbleweed ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:57:04 -0800 Subject: RE: good rod, bad rod Where I am going to be fishing and for what dictates what is a "better"taper. Also, a couple of years ago I liked the faster cane rods. The Sir Dwas my favorite. Since I have started experimenting with parabolic rods, andI have learned how to cast them, They have become my favorite rods. WayneC.'s "The Force" in paticular.All rods are "good". It just depends on who is using them, and what they arefishing for.If you are talking about collectors buying rods on ebay, the "good" rods arethe one made by the "names". Casting and fishing has nothing to do with it.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 9:42 AM Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: good rod, bad rod Ok! Let me rephrase the question! Let's say a quiz show host gave youenough money to buy any rod you wanted, new or old. You could only use it important, why? Yes, it is subjective. However, as an example, if 95% of flycasterspreferred a faster rod, faster rod tapers would be percieved as "better"tapers. The "best" tapers are then the ones that are most sought after.I guess this question could be partially answered by watching Ebay to findout which rods sell for the most money but this doesn't answer thequestion of why. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I would like to start a new thread. I've been working on a taper and have been revisiting the archives. This time something occurred to me.What differentiates a good rod from a bad one. In looking at the stresscurves of different rods, most show the greatest stress near the tip butsome show the greatest stress at the butt. Some are designed todistribute the stress evenly across the rod. Some have a uniformlyincreasing diameter with various slopes to the change while others havethe "parabolic" change. Some are "smooth" tapers while others havemultiple radical changes in slope of the taper. What I am getting at is that looking at the curves, basically any "stick"of bamboo would fall into near/on one of these tapers. There is a prettywide latitude between the "fast" rods in the archive and the "slow" ones.In other words, give a monkey a knife and some strips of bamboo. Let himwhittle them and glue the results together and (within reason) it wouldfit within the range of tapers in the archive when matched to the right(?)line. So, what makes a good taper? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Nov 7 12:30:22 2001 fA7IULN22628 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:30:21 -0600 Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule Hi Steve and all,This question deserves a bit of probing. I've repaired hundreds of old rodsmany of which had cracked ferrules usually of the inexpensive type.Invariably the crack was longitudinal to the ferrule and not acircumferential failure. I have yet to see a nickel silver ferrule cracklike this including many that have had long years of service. Sometimes thecrack seems to generate from the serration and sometimes from the holewherethe ferrule pin was installed and sometimes just at random locations. Itdidn't seem to be correlated to how tightly the ferrule was fitted on therod. One would think that the repeated bending of a ferrule might result ina circumferential crack. Perhaps ferrules that have been "drawn" in theirmanufacture have some residual stresses along their length that lead toearly failure.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Cracked ferrule I made a one-tip rod and went about a year without using it. It's been in its tube during that time. I took it out the other day and noticed that themale ferrule had split all along it's length. I've never seen thatbefore--but it's making me wonder if my other rods will do the same thing. What would have caused that? An air pocket? Expansion of the glue (I'm using Epoxy)? Moisture in the bamboo? I don't recall the specifics of this rod, but I'm not one who forces the ferrule on really tightly. --Steve from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Nov 7 12:33:36 2001 fA7IXZN23498 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:33:35 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:33:33 -0500 Subject: Fwd: good rod, bad rod (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) Full-name: Grhghlndr Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod I would take a rod built by PH Young as my choice and it would most likely be the Para 15. I have one built by someone else and if PHYs are anything like this one it is a canon. Of course I would be hard pressed to decide if a Garrison was laying there as well.Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) I would take a rod built by PH Young as my choice and it would pressed to decide if a Garrison was laying there as well.Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from harms1@pa.net Wed Nov 7 12:37:31 2001 fA7IbVN24551 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:37:31 -0600 Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod Onis, I really do understand what you are after in pursuing this discussion, but Ireally don't think it is an issue upon which we can cast (get it?) very muchlight. It has been said, whether true or not, that probably every conceivable taperconfiguration has been tried (if not by actual numbers, then surely bydesign principles). And it is also probably true that, by now, every kindof taper has been investigated by a variety of makers who possess both skilland deserved notoriety. Still, distinctions between "good" and "bad" tapers are BOUND to come downto questions of purpose, personal taste, and/or relative popularity. And,as these factors can only be matters of subjective estimation, I just don'tknow how, as a discussion group, we can "get there from here". That said, I suppose we could all imagine "bad" tapers by suggestingperfectly absurd designs (ie., a rod whose taper is concave throughout itslength, or one that reduces by no more than a 1/16" throughout its length,or one that has been reversed so that one casts using the butt-end as thetip-top, and so on.) But, obvoiusly, that isn't going to advance our understanding of what youasked as an honest question. There must be hundreds of silly, "bad" tapers.So the question really ought to be: "What constitutes a 'good' taper?" Butin asking it, we still invite nothing but matters of opinion. Now, to me,that's not a problem, but it doesn't provide much of a discussion. What we COULD do is discuss, if we like, the relative merits of our favoritetapers and why we prefer them--that is, without making assumptions aboutwhether or not (or to what extent) they are necessarily "good" tapers, insome inescapable, scientific sense. To this end, we might also look forward to the results of the "GrandExperiment" rods and their relative merits. Additionally, of course, thereare issues of rod length and purpose, numbers of strips, techniques oftempering, and so on. Are we interested only in taper philosophy, or moreimportantly, also in "good" rods? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod Ok! Let me rephrase the question! Let's say a quiz show host gave you enough money to buy any rod you wanted, new or old. You could only use it important, why? Yes, it is subjective. However, as an example, if 95% of flycasters preferred a faster rod, faster rod tapers would be percieved as "better"tapers. The "best" tapers are then the ones that are most sought after. Iguess this question could be partially answered by watching Ebay to find outwhich rods sell for the most money but this doesn't answer the question ofwhy. from lblan@provide.net Wed Nov 7 12:43:58 2001 fA7IhwN26235 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:43:58 -0600 with HTTP id 4149830 for ; Wed, 07 Nov 200113:43:56 -0500 Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod I spent the entire weekend at SRG hanging my head because Iwas the only one there that did not fall in love with theLeonard 38. Just didn't like the way it cast. Everyone elsewas going to run home and build one. I sure fell in lovewith the Para 14 though! I also liked the Heddon Folsom, got the numbers from DennisHigham that night and peeked at a graph. It was obvious fromthe curve why I liked it, you could put PHY Para xx on thatrod and no one would know otherwise. Larry Blan On Wed, 07 Nov 2001 09:58:49 -0700"Ralph W. Moon" wrote: Onis, I could be facetious and answer your question, "one Idesigned", but actia;;u I don't know if there is such a thing as a badrod. I made a very slow parabolic taper once, and when an expertcasting instructor tried it and handed it back with the comment "It's nodamned good." I just figured I'd keep it for myself. Then another castertried it and nearly broke my arm twisting it to sell to him. Heclaimed he could cast a full fly line with little effort. I think thatthe differentiation between good and bad is largely asubjective one. On the other hand I once cast a very reknowned rod maker'srod and thought it a piece of crap, but I noticed that many of the guyson the list have made that same taper. amd praised it. Go figure Ralph k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: So, what makes a good taper? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com . -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Nov 7 13:01:39 2001 fA7J1cN29823 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:01:38 -0600 Subject: Twist I have built a blank based on Garrison's 8'6" three piece rod and I have a twist at the swell area that I cannot get out. I have applied some pretty good heat to this and it will not move. Anyone else have this problem? I am using Nyatex and I wonder who else is and how much heat is too much heat to get this problem resolved?Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) I have built a blank based on Garrison's 8'6" three piece rod much heat is too much heat to get this problem resolved?Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from rmoon@ida.net Wed Nov 7 13:25:57 2001 fA7JPuN04767 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:25:56 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: Twist not. out. it like sear through. much Ralph Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: I have built a blank based on Garrison's 8'6" three piece rod and I have pretty I am using Nyatex and I wonder who else is and how much heat is too muchheat to get this problem resolved?Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Nov 7 13:32:09 2001 fA7JW8N06070 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:32:08 -0600 (authenticated) Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:31:54 -0800 Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule Ray, I've never seen this problem either, but I have heard of ferrules beingmadewith their wall thickness far too small. When the walls are too small, theferrule simply doesn't have the strength necessary to carry the loadintended.And it could happen in either the male or female, or both. I suspect that'swhat Steve is running in to. Another possible cause would have nothing to do with manufacturingdefects.If the alloy in the Nickel Silver itself was bad, or if a ferrule maker got abad batch of metal, then the metal might well fatigue too easily. Right? Harry Ray Gould wrote: Hi Steve and all,This question deserves a bit of probing. I've repaired hundreds of old rodsmany of which had cracked ferrules usually of the inexpensive type.Invariably the crack was longitudinal to the ferrule and not acircumferential failure. I have yet to see a nickel silver ferrule cracklike this including many that have had long years of service. Sometimes thecrack seems to generate from the serration and sometimes from the holewherethe ferrule pin was installed and sometimes just at random locations. Itdidn't seem to be correlated to how tightly the ferrule was fitted on therod. One would think that the repeated bending of a ferrule might result ina circumferential crack. Perhaps ferrules that have been "drawn" in theirmanufacture have some residual stresses along their length that lead toearly failure.Ray----- Original Message -----From: "Steve Zimmerman" Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:09 AMSubject: Cracked ferrule I made a one-tip rod and went about a year without using it. It's been in its tube during that time. I took it out the other day and noticed that themale ferrule had split all along it's length. I've never seen thatbefore--but it's making me wonder if my other rods will do the same thing. What would have caused that? An air pocket? Expansion of the glue (I'm using Epoxy)? Moisture in the bamboo? I don't recall the specifics of this rod, but I'm not one who forces the ferrule on really tightly. --Steve -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from Grayson.Davis@valpo.edu Wed Nov 7 13:32:17 2001 fA7JWGN06091 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:32:16 -0600 fA7JW3C12124 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:32:03 -0600 Subject: Re: cutting a bead in NS? On Thu, 08 Nov 2001 01:34:32 +0800 Tony Young wrote: I don't think you were doing this but you weren't trying to part or close to part between centers were you?Was the over hang of the cutter too long causing chatter or too low?Was the piece chucked well?Was the cutter square to the work, meaning if the cutter was very thin did it cut straight to the piece or cause extra friction from being a littlesquewd Tony Thanks Tony! I was not trying to part; I will double check tonight to see how close I was to cutting through the wall of the tube. I guess you are suggesting that the tube flexed, because it was too thin and weakened, and moved toward the bit. That may be it, but it did not move noticeably. Everything was as close and square as I could make it by eye. Everything was as firm as I could make it by hand without grunting. -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from Grayson.Davis@valpo.edu Wed Nov 7 13:35:33 2001 fA7JZNN07148 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:35:28 -0600 fA7JZEC13093 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:35:14 -0600 Subject: Re: cutting a bead in NS? On Wed, 07 Nov 2001 11:02:29 -0600 Tony Spezio wrote: I just mentioned this to another list member a while ago. Itrelates to centering the tool bit.Will post it now.snipI center the bit using the old tool makers secret. Take asmall steel scale. Hold it up against the work piece.With the cross feed, feed the tool bit up against thescale. The bit is then adjusted till the scale sitsvertical.If the top of the scale leans toward you , the bit islow, if the top of the scale leans away from you then thebit is too high. The scale should be vertical for the bitto be centered on the work piece. Oh Yes, this will onlywork with round stock.snip Wonderful!! I will try that tonight. Thanks Tony!------------------------------------ -----Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 7 13:37:46 2001 fA7JbkN07529 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:37:46 -0600 Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod Excellent Bill! You have hit the nail on the head! Please excuse this oldhillbilly's use of the American language. This, I think would be veryinteresting and useful. I do not know that I agree that the derivation of all tapers has been done. Long ago, (but not long, long ago), while I was in school, there was someexperiments done by the engineering department on measuring stresses onbuildings. They proved that a parbolic shape was stronger than a normalarch and the strongest building used the hyperbolic perabola for its shape. Safeway built some of their stores using that shape; looked like a saddle from the top. Anyway, would varying the cross sectional area as a function of a parabolaor logarithm or one of the other common mathematical relationships found innature improve a parabolic taper? I don't know if this approach has beenstudied but there is a heck of a lot of formulas to try before it is covered. Best regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com What we COULD do is discuss, if we like, the relative merits of our favoritetapers and why we prefer them--that is, without making assumptions aboutwhether or not (or to what extent) they are necessarily "good" tapers, insome inescapable, scientific sense. To this end, we might also look forward to the results of the "GrandExperiment" rods and their relative merits. Additionally, of course, thereare issues of rod length and purpose, numbers of strips, techniques oftempering, and so on. Are we interested only in taper philosophy, or moreimportantly, also in "good" rods? cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod Ok! Let me rephrase the question! Let's say a quiz show host gave you enough money to buy any rod you wanted, new or old. You could only use it important, why? Yes, it is subjective. However, as an example, if 95% of flycasters preferred a faster rod, faster rod tapers would be percieved as "better"tapers. The "best" tapers are then the ones that are most sought after. Iguess this question could be partially answered by watching Ebay to find outwhich rods sell for the most money but this doesn't answer the question ofwhy. from JNL123141@msn.com Wed Nov 7 13:45:49 2001 fA7JjnN08371 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:45:49 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:45:50 -0800 Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod FILETIME=[CDC0CC60:01C167C4] Onis,Its like buying a pair of shoes or selecting a hooker from a lineup-very =personal. If the rod fits our own unique timing preference then it is a =great rod-other factors being equal. As for the lineup of hookers, I've = john ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod Ok! Let me rephrase the question! Let's say a quiz show host gave you e=nough money to buy any rod you wanted, new or old. You could only use it= important, why? Yes, it is subjective. However, as an example, if 95% of flycasters pref=erred a faster rod, faster rod tapers would be percieved as "better" tape=rs. The "best" tapers are then the ones that are most sought after. I g=uess this question could be partially answered by watching Ebay to find o=ut which rods sell for the most money but this doesn't answer the questio=n of why. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I would like to start a new thread. I've been working on a taper and h= ave been revisiting the archives. This time something occurred to me. Wh=at differentiates a good rod from a bad one. In looking at the stress cu=rves of different rods, most show the greatest stress near the tip but so=me show the greatest stress at the butt. Some are designed to distribute=the stress evenly across the rod. Some have a uniformly increasing diam=eter with various slopes to the change while others have the "parabolic" =change. Some are "smooth" tapers while others have multiple radical chan=ges in slope of the taper. What I am getting at is that looking at the curves, basically any "stick"=of bamboo would fall into near/on one of these tapers. There is a prett=y wide latitude between the "fast" rods in the archive and the "slow" one=s. In other words, give a monkey a knife and some strips of bamboo. Let =him whittle them and glue the results together and (within reason) it wou=ld fit within the range of tapers in the archive when matched to the righ=t(?) line. So, what makes a good taper? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Onis, Its like buying a pair of shoes or selecting a hooker from a lineup-ve= ----- Original Message ----- From:k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sent: Wednesday, November07,= k5vkq@ix.=netcom.com Cc:rodmakers@mai=l.wustl.edu Subject: Re:goo= quest= ycasters preferred a faster rod, faster rod tapers would be percieved as = watching Ebay to find out which rods sell for the most money but this doe=sn't answer the question ofwhy.Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netc= star= different rods, most show the greatest stress near the tip but some show= iameter with various slopes to the change while others have the "paraboli= cal changes in slope of the taper.What I am getting at is that lo=oking at the curves, basically any "stick" of bamboo would fall into near= ive a monkey a knife and some strips of bamboo. Let him whittle them and =glue the results together and (within reason) it would fit within the ran= what makes a goodtaper?Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 7 13:51:29 2001 fA7JpSN09734 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:51:28 -0600 Subject: Re: cutting a bead in NS? spent two nights making the female part of a ferrule from one of severalbars I had. The others cut like brass but this one was like trying to turnglass. The finish was nice but the cutter did not want to penetrate themetal. I found out later that some metals have a window that thespeed/feed rate needs to match or the cutter can burnish the metalincreasing cutting resistance. Don't know if any of the NS falls into this. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Grayson.Davis@valpo.edu wrote: On Thu, 08 Nov 2001 01:34:32 +0800 Tony Young wrote: I don't think you were doing this but you weren't trying to part or close to part between centers were you?Was the over hang of the cutter too long causing chatter or too low?Was the piece chucked well?Was the cutter square to the work, meaning if the cutter was very thin did it cut straight to the piece or cause extra friction from being a littlesquewd Tony Thanks Tony! I was not trying to part; I will double check tonight to see how close I was to cutting through the wall of the tube. I guess you are suggesting that the tube flexed, because it was too thin and weakened, and moved toward the bit. That may be it, but it did not move noticeably. Everything was as close and square as I could make it by eye. Everything was as firm as I could make it by hand without grunting. -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from JNL123141@msn.com Wed Nov 7 13:52:22 2001 fA7JqMN10032 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:52:22 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:52:23 -0800 "RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying FILETIME=[B80A3720:01C167C5] I think the vapors are heavier than air because in my mishap, the pvc sat= blew it out with an air hose and turned it upside down for a day and eve=rything was ok. Still, the pu glue is the way I do it. It doesn't have =to hold 40 psi of water. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying That's about confirmed it. I knew the glue could jellify the varnish butI'd have thought if you couldn't smell it, it was ok but I was wrong obvi=ously.Thanks John. Tony At 11:40 AM 11/7/01 -0500, John Long wrote: Yes! That happened to me. I now use PU glue. john ----- Original Message -----From: Tony YoungSent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:08 AM Cc: k5vkq@ix.netcom.com; k5vkq@ix.netcom.com; fbcwin@3g.quik.com;Rodmak= ers Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying That's the one. Clear or baby blue. At 10:54 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I guess we had better make sure we are talking about the same thing. = The "plumber's glue" I use is the stuff called PVC cement sold alongside t= he PVC tubes. There are usually several different types, (some colored, = some acetone. Is this what you are referring to? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: I guess you used the plumber's glue for the fittings? Tony At 10:42 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: n the lathe to make the case look like something other than a plumbers dre= am and assemble as needed. The last two rods were finished with Behlens "R= ock Hard Table Top Varnish". I assembled the PVC cases and put the rods= in them within an hour of assembly. They have been in there for over a month without any noticible affect to the varnish. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Could be related. Liek to get to the bottom of it. Tony At 10:12 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I haven't had any problem with PVC cement but I know vinyl's and t= he stuff fishing worms are made of will soften paints. First saw this year= s ago when painted casting plugs were mixed with worms. Result: stickyyuck. Vinyl will do the same. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the same but has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it= in a poly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I t= hink this happened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it must not be any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*****************************************************************= ***** ***/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*****************************************************************= ***** ***/ /*******************************************************************= *** ***/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*******************************************************************= *** ***/ /*********************************************************************= ****/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*********************************************************************= ****/ /***********************************************************************= **/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/***********************************************************************= **/ /************************************************************************=*/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/************************************************************************=*/ I think theva=pors are heavier than air because in my mishap, the pvc sat for over a we= out with an air hose and turned it upside down for a day and everything w= ----- From: Tony Young Se= ify the varnish butI'd have thought if you couldn't smell it, it was =ok but I was wrong obviously.ThanksJohn.TonyAt 1= me.&= Origina= November = k5vkq@ix.netc=om.com; k5vkq@ix.netcom.com; fbcwin@3g.quik.com; k5vkq@ix.netcom.= abo= The= gu= &g= k5vkq@ix.netco= &g= th= &= wrote= are= me= w= &= = &= = sit= www.iinet.net.au/~avy= p= my web= ert Einstein (1879- *********************************//******************************=*******************************************/AVYoungVisit my = www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html"Ma=ke everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einst=ein (1879- 1955)/*****************************************************=********************/ from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 14:00:37 2001 fA7K0aN12022 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:00:36 -0600 Wed, 07 Nov 2001 12:00:43 PST Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Seems to me, IMHO, that many of these older rods haveabsorbed moisture gradually through the varnish andthat the ferrules were on tight enough that theycouldn't withstand the swelling of the cane and theycracked. I have gotten this impression through some ofthe old rods that I've reworked/restored and if youdry out the rod in a drying cabinet without doinganything else, you'll often find that the fittings aresuddenly looser than they were when you got it. Ithink the cracking is due to expansion and contractionof the cane and the cheap metal ferrules that couldn'ttake it. Bill Walters --- Ray Gould wrote: Hi Steve and all,This question deserves a bit of probing. I'verepaired hundreds of old rodsmany of which had cracked ferrules usually of theinexpensive type.Invariably the crack was longitudinal to the ferruleand not acircumferential failure. I have yet to see a nickelsilver ferrule cracklike this including many that have had long years ofservice. Sometimes thecrack seems to generate from the serration andsometimes from the hole wherethe ferrule pin was installed and sometimes just atrandom locations. Itdidn't seem to be correlated to how tightly theferrule was fitted on therod. One would think that the repeated bending of aferrule might result ina circumferential crack. Perhaps ferrules that havebeen "drawn" in theirmanufacture have some residual stresses along theirlength that lead toearly failure.Ray----- Original Message -----From: "Steve Zimmerman" Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:09 AMSubject: Cracked ferrule I made a one-tip rod and went about a year without using it. It's been inits tube during that time. I took it out the otherday and noticed that themale ferrule had split all along it's length. I'venever seen thatbefore--but it's making me wonder if my other rodswill do the same thing. What would have caused that? An air pocket? Expansion of the glue (I'musing Epoxy)? Moisture in the bamboo? I don't recall the specifics of this rod, but I'm not one who forces theferrule on really tightly. --Steve __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Find a job, post your resume.http://careers.yahoo.com from jim_hecht@hotmail.com Wed Nov 7 14:17:18 2001 fA7KHIN15748 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:17:18 - Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:17:12 -0800 Wed, 07 Nov 2001 20:17:12 GMT Subject: Re: Future of searchable Rodmakers archives FILETIME=[2F9DE950:01C167C9] I really hope there is a way to keep this going. It works great and is incredibly useful. I for one am very appreciative of the work that has gone into creating and maintaining the archive. From: Frank Stetzer Subject: Future of searchable Rodmakers archives This is kind of a "heads up" for those who make use of thesearchable list archives I put up. As the size of the archivesgrows (now almost 50,000 messages and 70 Megabytes) I can seethe day coming when my little homemade search tool will notbe adequate, and/or the day when the boss will say "Get thatcrap off the server." I'm hoping that someone can take over this project and give ita better home with a better set of tools. In the mean time I'llcontinue the monthly updates. Its not much work, just that itsgrowing too big to continue like this forever.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from jerryy@webtv.net Wed Nov 7 14:20:09 2001 fA7KK8N16553 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:20:08 -0600 by mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id MAA25764; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:20:11 - ETAsAhRp5QURgLVlqliPkID5qWmXT3q3EQIUXCrU+JT151v3wKhjaJYyJeCgFOk= Subject: Re: Turning Burl 2001 10:38:18 -0500 Bill - As it happens I was roughing out some redwood burl thisafternoon. Have always had problems with the grain raising both using agouge on the wood lathe or with a real sharp tool on the metal lathe.Boy, that router trick works slick. Even tried the worst of them all -Butternut. That also worked great without tearing it. Thanks for the tip, Jerry Young from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Wed Nov 7 14:51:55 2001 fA7KptN24014 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:51:55 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:51:53 -0800 Wed, 07 Nov 2001 20:51:52 GMT Subject: Re: Twist FILETIME=[079713F0:01C167CE] Bret after the varnish has been applied. The fact that the problem is near thethickest part of the rod does make it more difficult, but not impossible tostraighten. I use a toaster, 4 slice, and heat the bad area over a long periodof time. If the rod is already varnished, then heat it as hot as you can, butstill be able to put your hands on the rod without burning your fingers. If it'sto hot to touch, then it's going to ruin the varnish. Go slowly as you need toheat the inside of the rod to soften the glue. I mark the side that I want tobend with a pencil and when heating, I hold constant pressure on the rod. Ifthe rod hasn't been varnished, it's easier, as you can use more heat to getthe job done. It could take possibly an hour to warm the inside of the rodenough to soften the glue, don't hurry, with all the work you have into thebutt section it would be a shame to ruin the butt section by using !a heat gun and scorch the Twist and I have a some pretty problem? I am too much heat to Get your FREE download of MSNExplorer at http://explorer.msn.com from beadman@mac.com Wed Nov 7 17:21:15 2001 fA7NLEN23976 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:21:14 -0600 Subject: Re: Twist At 8:51 PM -0500 , 11/7/01, Jim Bureau wrote about Re: Twist... been varnished, it's easier, as you can use more heat to get the job done. It could take possibly an hour to warm the inside of the rod enough to soften the glue, don't hurry, with all the work you have into the butt section it would be a shame to ruin the butt section by using ! a heat gun and scorch the job. Just out of curiousity, could a hair dryer be used? I've used one to re-melt glue stick type glue many times without hurting the material it was on. Claude from bob@downandacross.com Wed Nov 7 17:36:40 2001 fA7NaeN27343 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:36:40 -0600 Subject: RE: good rod, bad rod Larry:You and I must cast alike. I cannot cast a Payne or Dickerson taper half aswell as a Young, Garrison, or Hardy taper. Must be us.Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod I spent the entire weekend at SRG hanging my head because Iwas the only one there that did not fall in love with theLeonard 38. Just didn't like the way it cast. Everyone elsewas going to run home and build one. I sure fell in lovewith the Para 14 though! from cw@vanion.com Wed Nov 7 17:53:47 2001 fA7NrkN00950 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:53:46 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:58:31 -0700 Subject: test from Brian.Thoman@sybase.com Wed Nov 7 18:17:48 2001 fA80HlN05395 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:17:47 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:19:04 -0800 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:17:48 -0800 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:17:48 -0800 Subject: Reel Seat Nickel Silver Tubing |June 18, 2001) at11/07/2001 04:17:47 PM I have two sizes of nickel silver tubing that I'd like to sell at $20 perfoot. The sizes are .720 x .650 and .650 x 590. I have quite a bit ofthis stuff. If anyone is interested please email me at Thanks. Brian Brian Thoman 'maker'Chattahoochee Rodshttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 7 19:04:53 2001 fA814qN06806 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:04:52 -0600 ;Thu, 8 Nov 2001 01:04:48 +0000 Subject: Re: Reel seat spacer wood Jason, One thing you can do is turn a project on the lathe while the wood stillretains moisture and save the shavings from turning. Inbed the turningin the shavings and it will dry slowly enough not to crack or distort.Of course this is relative to the amount of moisture, size of turning,humidity of air surrounding etc. I did have some luck with thisprocedure myself. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Jason Swan wrote: Hi all, All of these questions about burl wood and Bill's slick method for makingreel seat spacers got me thinking about the wood...... from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Nov 7 20:05:53 2001 fA825qN09190 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:05:53 -0600 ([209.178.135.38] helo=g2t8c9) id 161eZq-0005jI-00; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:05:59 -0800 Subject: what to do with the list I do not know if this can be done. But when the archive become so large andout grown the server it is on would it be plausible to dump all of thearchives onto CD? Make the CD available for sale and use the money to pay gatherings. This way a lot of the information will be preserved but toaccess the old post you would need to $ for the CD. I would much rather see it for sale then disapear altogether. Adam Vigil from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Nov 7 20:05:55 2001 fA825sN09196 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:05:55 -0600 ([209.178.135.38] helo=g2t8c9) id 161eZt-0005jI-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 18:06:01 -0800 Subject: Rodmaking video Great for someone who needs to see how it is done. Contact me off the list. Adam Vigil from jojo@ipa.net Wed Nov 7 20:13:16 2001 fA82DFN09824 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:13:15 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:13:21 -0500 Subject: In Light of the Recent Lapse in List Etiquette "Be such a man, and live such a life, that if every man were such as you,and every life a life like yours, this earth would be God's Paradise."Phillips Brooks We can't control anyone else's behavior, but we can control ours. We can'tcontrol the circumstances others will create, but we can with ours.Unfortunately, as long as there have been humans there have been thosewhodo not live in such a way as to bring good about. But there are always thosewho live lives that bring about good as well. Be one of those people. Be aperson who, after you are gone, your contribution will be missed and notsimply remembered. Do something everyday to make life around you good forall those you come in contact with. The key is to be proactive. Don't dogood only if you have the opportunity. Create the opportunity and do goodalways. In doing so you will change the world around you. from Troutgetter@aol.com Wed Nov 7 20:13:22 2001 fA82DLN09840 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:13:21 -0600 Subject: Re: what to do with the list stetzer@csd.uwm.edu In a message dated 11/7/2001 6:10:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: This way a lot of the information will be preserved but toaccess the old post you would need to $ for the CD. I agree! At least it would still be around.MikeMike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CA In a message dated 11/7/2001 6:10:08 PM Pacific StandardTime, atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: This way a lot of theinformation will be preserved but toaccess the old post you would need to $ for the CD. I agree! At least it would still be around.MikeMike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CA from jfoster@gte.net Wed Nov 7 20:24:52 2001 fA82OpN10723 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:24:51 -0600 fA82OpOl000862 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:24:52 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011022 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: what to do with the list AdamI'm reasonably dissapointed at all this archive talk, as a matter of fact i have now stripped the arch of most of the header crap and it now readable, with the exception of those who insist on html..some of your content will be lost..too bad.anyway except for 0109 i think its all readable. Jerry from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Nov 7 20:48:42 2001 fA82mcN11979 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:48:39 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:48:38 -0500 Subject: response I had to delete some emails lately to correct a problemin my outlook express.If any one emailed me and didn't get a reply, My apologies.:))please email me again if I did not reply to you and Ishould be able to reply now.thanks and sorry for the band width:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} I had to delete some emails lately to correct a problemin my outlook express.If any one emailed me and didn't get a reply, My =apologies.:))please email me again if I did not reply to you and Ishould be able to reply now.thanks and sorry for the band width:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from crmitchell@ocsonline.com Wed Nov 7 20:48:57 2001 fA82muN12041 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:48:56 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:46:21 -0500 Rodmakers Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying The problem is most likely due to the solvent in the PVC glue, which istetrahydrofuran, and is about as nasty as the name implies. It is a greatsolvent and a small amount will probably soften any varnish, especially in anenclosed space. Don't breathe much of this stuff as it will give you killerheadache; don't recall any longterm effects. k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I guess we had better make sure we are talking about the same thing. The"plumber's glue" I use is the stuff called PVC cement sold alongside the PVCtubes. There are usually several different types, (some colored, some forthe hot water type). I use the common PVC type. Lot's of acetone. Is thiswhat you are referring to? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: I guess you used the plumber's glue for the fittings? Tony At 10:42 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: lathe to make the case look like something other than a plumbers dreamandassemble as needed. The last two rods were finished with Behlens "RockHard Table Top Varnish". I assembled the PVC cases and put the rods inthem within an hour of assembly. They have been in there for over amonthwithout any noticible affect to the varnish. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Could be related. Liek to get to the bottom of it. Tony At 10:12 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I haven't had any problem with PVC cement but I know vinyl's and thestufffishing worms are made of will soften paints. First saw this years agowhen painted casting plugs were mixed with worms. Result: stickyyuck. Vinyl will do the same. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the samebut has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it in apoly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I thinkthishappened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it mustnotbe any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Nov 7 20:59:28 2001 fA82xPN13563 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:59:26 -0600 Subject: Re: New question -- varnish drying It's got a savage smell alright but my main concern is how long after the smell is gone is it safe to use the tube? When I used the tube it was days after I used the glue and I didn't smell anything. This may not be the problem in this case, it could just look like it, possibly even something done at the other end I didn't heard about. Tony At 09:53 PM 11/7/01 -0500, carey mitchell wrote: The problem is most likely due to the solvent in the PVC glue, which is tetrahydrofuran, and is about as nasty as the name implies. It is a great solvent and a small amount will probably soften any varnish, especially in an enclosed space. Don't breathe much of this stuff as it will give you killer headache; don't recall any longterm effects. k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I guess we had better make sure we are talking about the same thing. The "plumber's glue" I use is the stuff called PVC cement sold alongside the PVC tubes. There are usually several different types, (some colored, some for the hot water type). I use the common PVC type. Lot's of acetone. Is this what you are referring to? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: I guess you used the plumber's glue for the fittings? Tony At 10:42 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: lathe to make the case look like something other than a plumbersdream andassemble as needed. The last two rods were finished with Behlens"RockHard Table Top Varnish". I assembled the PVC cases and put the rodsinthem within an hour of assembly. They have been in there for over amonthwithout any noticible affect to the varnish. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Could be related. Liek to get to the bottom of it. Tony At 10:12 AM 11/7/01 -0500, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: I haven't had any problem with PVC cement but I know vinyl's and the stuff fishing worms are made of will soften paints. First saw this yearsagowhen painted casting plugs were mixed with worms. Result: stickyyuck. Vinyl will do the same. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Just a related question because the chemistry of it is prob the same but has anybody ever had a rod's finish go to jelly after enclosing it in apoly tube that has been glued with poly glue used by plumbers? I think this happened to one of my rods at some time but if it's the reason it must not be any more than the mearest sniff of it to cause the damage. At 05:29 PM 11/6/01 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, I'm waiting on the last coat of varnish to dryon a rod I just completed. I dipped it Fridaynight, and it looks pretty nice, if I do say so.No polishing needed on this one, whew!! I got towondering, exactly how does varnish dry? I knowthat at first the solvents evaporate, but once ithas "skinned over" and become tack free, what'shappening in there under the outer surface? If Iwere to polish this rod, I would wait at least aweek for it to harden thoroughly. But since itwon't need polishing, and it's already fairlyhard, is there any reason to wait before shippingit? Thanks in advance,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /******************************************************************** *****/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /******************************************************************** *****/ /********************************************************************** ***/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /********************************************************************** ***/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. "- Albert Einstein (1879- 1955)/*************************************************************************/ from LECLAIR123@aol.com Wed Nov 7 21:03:02 2001 fA8331N13906 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:03:01 -0600 Subject: Re: Turning Burl In a message dated 11/07/2001 9:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, flytyr@southshore.com writes: Tony, The best drill for boring the burls is a Parabolic drill bit.The flutes are on a longer spiral and don't clog as fast as a std.bit. Also, if you "peck" the hole, this means, to drill in say one halfturn with the hand wheel on your tail stock, then back up slightlyThen, go in another half a turn, back out slightly and so on. Thissounds slow, but it isn't. This is a trick that machinists do whendrilling metal, to keep the hole going straight. if you don't do itthis way, your hole will never come out the other side on center. I usually drill about 2/3 of the way through the filler, then takeit out of the chuck and turn it end for end and Finnish drilling fromthe other side. Remember also to use a pilot drill to start your holeThis way the drill will start on center. Dave L. http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from martinrjensen@home.com Wed Nov 7 21:21:42 2001 fA83LfN14914 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:21:42 -0600 femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:21:40 -0800 Subject: RE: prankster If it changes your email settings, no matter how slight, it is a virus,most definitely! Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: prankster There was an attachment that was sent to the list recently.Delete it. Don't open it.I opened it. I thought I had a virus.It wasn't a virus , but it does somehow change your email settings.If any are experiencing problems I have the fix.I think the post was titled look at these pictures or something likethat.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html CleanDocumentEmail MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle- rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso- style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para- margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow- orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} If it changes your email settings, =nomatter how slight, it is a virus, most =definitely! Martin =Jensen = -----Original =Message-----From:owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Tuesday, November=06, 20019:50 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: =prankster There was an attachment that was sent to the list =recently. Delete it. Don't open it. I opened it. I thought I had a =virus. It wasn't a virus , but it does somehow change your = email settings. fix. I think the post was titled look at these pictures or =somethinglike that. Tony Miller www.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Nov 7 21:27:03 2001 fA83R2N15319 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:27:02 -0600 (authenticated) Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:26:37 -0800 Subject: Re: Turning Burl Dave, Tony, Just wondering... how fast do you usually turn wood in the lathe whiledrilling it? I've been turning it pretty fast, about 3/4 speed Harry LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: I usually drill about 2/3 of the way through the filler, then takeit out of the chuck and turn it end for end and Finnish drilling fromthe other side. Remember also to use a pilot drill to start your holeThis way the drill will start on center. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from martinrjensen@home.com Wed Nov 7 21:27:20 2001 fA83RJN15396 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:27:19 -0600 femail38.sdc1.sfba.home.com ;Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:27:18 -0800 Subject: RE: Terry Ackland's "contributions" from what I know of trout, it "would" work with trout, ...but notbass...their too smart Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Terry Ackland's "contributions" I am in absolute top shape, thanks Dick.it does me a power of good to get on the list and wind the guys up. Itneverfails, works every time, More fun than rodmaking thats for sure.I knew I could get Tony, he does not need a delicate presentation, justafrosty chucked in.Why is it I can pull the same old stunt time after time? would not workwithtrout.Terry Dick & Kathy Fuhrman wrote: I think that Terry's blood pressure is up again and he needs to take his medicine and bring it down.Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message -----From: "Rick" Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:43 PMSubject: Terry Ackland's "contributions" Folks, I've tried to be more than civil and have been patient beyond mynormal limits. But I must now speak out. I am attempting to ascertain just what Terry A.'s intent is in his constant negative attitude andreplies to inquiries to the list. He claims to have the only workable taper beveler, but he's not talking. He has the perfect impregnant for mass marketing rods, but again - top secret. If he has accomplishedthese feats, good for him! He will do well in his new fulltime career. He is certainly not expected to reveal trade secrets which willadversely affect his future business. With that said, this list is for SUPPORTING each others asrodmakers. I do not expect him to share his experiences with us if it costs him. But - I see no reason for him to constantly try to denigrate the efforts of others, confuse the issues at hand, and dissuadehobbyists from inexpensive though admittedly laborious methods otherthan to generally try to lessen the quality and value of the content of the list. To Terry, I say, "Contribute something worthwhile to the list orleave it. Your current actions and correspondence are hypocritical and go against the grain of your very own words. If this list is worthless and spreads misinformation, why do you attend to it? If you are intent on straightening us out, show us what you've got that proves the rest of us wrong. If you are in the situation which you claim, i.e. have plenty of time, know all the correct methods, and have the appropriatemachinery, why don't you let US continue to provide our contribution to the growth in interest in bamboo rods, and YOU can profit from it byselling well made, moderately costed, low maintenance rods to thatinterested public. In the meantime BUGGER OFF!" To Mike, please consider this a plea to remove Mr. Ackland from the list. I think a perusal of his 'contributions' over the last few weeks will attest to the negative impact he makes on this list. I haveconsidered taking a 'vacation' from the list if he continues in thismanner and I fear that this type of action is his real intent. Rick C. P.S. Terry, don't reply directly to me. I will not read anything you have to say. You have proven that your conversations are unilateral and I will not be drawn into such wastes of time. from flyfish@defnet.com Wed Nov 7 21:42:51 2001 fA83gmN16441 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:42:49 -0600 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:42:51 -0500 Subject: Re: prankster My virus check came up with nothing and everything is working fine since = All it did was change my send and receive to close my emaildown after I sent a message.And it put some funny 555-5555 connection in my dial up connections.( I =deleted it)I have corresponded with others. Some were affect others not.It seemed to affect people who opened the attachment and have outlook =express only.So hopefully all is better now.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} My virus check came up with nothing and everything is working fine = fixed it. All it did was change my send and receive to close my emaildown after I sent a message.And it put some funny 555-5555 connection in my dial up = deleted it)I have corresponded with others. Some were affect others not.It seemed to affect people who opened the attachment and have = express only.So hopefully all is better now.:))Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from flytyr@southshore.com Wed Nov 7 21:44:21 2001 fA83iLN16692 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:44:21 -0600 fA83iPx30549; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:44:25 -0600 Subject: Re: Turning Burl Dave,Other than the parabolic drill bit, that is exactly the way I do it. I will haveto see about getting the Parabolic drills in a few sizes. I was not aware thatis what those drills were called. I have no problem at all with the other typewood including Bodock. Will also take you recommendation with the Superglue. Igot some other replies that sound feasible, will try them all.I keep learning from this list.Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 11/07/2001 9:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,flytyr@southshore.com writes: Tony, The best drill for boring the burls is a Parabolic drill bit.The flutes are on a longer spiral and don't clog as fast as a std.bit. Also, if you "peck" the hole, this means, to drill in say one halfturn with the hand wheel on your tail stock, then back up slightlyThen, go in another half a turn, back out slightly and so on. Thissounds slow, but it isn't. This is a trick that machinists do whendrilling metal, to keep the hole going straight. if you don't do itthis way, your hole will never come out the other side on center. I usually drill about 2/3 of the way through the filler, then takeit out of the chuck and turn it end for end and Finnish drilling fromthe other side. Remember also to use a pilot drill to start your holeThis way the drill will start on center. Dave L. http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Wed Nov 7 21:52:38 2001 [66.133.130.238] (may be forged)) fA83qcN17282 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:52:38 -0600 sender ) Subject: Re: I forgot one Whoa, for a minute I thought Garrison was on the list.... : ) tom ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: I forgot one At 8:14 AM -0600 on 11/6/01, Lamberson, William R. wrote about RE: I forgot one I have tried guides on both sides of the rectangular quad described in the most recent Planing Form. The rod has a 5:4 ratio of height to width in the cross section. The rod is much stiffer with the guides on the narrow side. I don't remember the original question and that wasn't a PMQ so this may not answer it. Hi, Bill - that confirms what the math shows. The formula for stress is MC/I, where M is the moment (load), C isthe distance of the farthest fibers from the centerline, and I is themoment of inertia, which for a rectangular beam is (bh3)/12 where bis base width, and h is height for the rectangular cross section. be 6M/100. 6M/80. The ratio of the two stresses (100/80), says that the rod with theguides on the narrow side will have 80 % less stress than the rodwith the guides on the wide side. One interpretation of this is thatit will therefore be 25% stiffer... The formula for deflection of the tip of a uniform cantilevered beamis - (WL3)/3EI where W is the weight hanging on the end, L is thelength, E is modulus of elasticity (12,000,000 per Garrison), and Iis the moment of inertia. M in the stress equation is WL, so substitution yields a new formula rectangular rod, regardless of which side has the guides, and E is aconstant, the deflection is proportional to the moment of inertia.This is a long way of saying that for the given example, the rod withthe guides on the wide side will bend 25% more than the other rod,with the same weight hung on the tip. The conclusion is that if you want to build a "poor man's rect", tocoin a phrase, and like really fast action stiff rods, put the guideson the narrow side; if you like slow soft action rods, put the guideson the wide face. the rod to twist when cast, sloughing the bend to the other plane. This is to be expected. On a hex rod, when casting it with the flatfacing in the direction of the cast, you actually have theleast-stiff aspect of the rod doing the casting. Rotating the rod 30degrees to either side would increase the stress by 15%, which couldbe interpreted as increasing the stiffness by 15%. But the rod willseek the least-stressful position in the cast, and therefore twist onyou back to the flat-forward position. I think this may actuallyhelp casting be straighter, as the rod is "self-aligning", on a hex.On a rectangular rod, though, with guides on the narrow side, the rodwill twist on you trying to seek it's lowest stress position...This is very much akin to the idea of finding the spine of a rod whenmounting guides... Enough math for today - time to get back to rod building Claude from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Wed Nov 7 22:17:45 2001 [66.133.130.238] (may be forged)) fA84HiN18512 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:17:44 -0600 sender ) Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule Ferrule wall thickness should be at least 1/64" (.015"), I make mine around.020". I would think unless it was really wet and it froze, moisture wouldnot do this. I would think a bad batch of metal would show up duringmachining. I've seen nickel plated brass ferrules do this, never nickelsilver. There are 2 different grades that are commonly used in rod making.12%(C792) and 18%(C752). The % being the amount of nickel, balance iszincand copper. I can tell the difference machining the two, I wonder if itmight be 12% Nickel silver. I've heard from very reputable people that 12%would work fine for ferrules, but I have not tried it. I use 18% forferrules, 12% for reel seats. I'd remove it and clean it and measure the wall thickness, then go fromthere. Let me know what you find, I'm curious. tom ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule Ray, I've never seen this problem either, but I have heard of ferrules being made with their wall thickness far too small. When the walls are too small, the ferrule simply doesn't have the strength necessary to carry the load intended. And it could happen in either the male or female, or both. I suspect that's what Steve is running in to. Another possible cause would have nothing to do with manufacturing defects. If the alloy in the Nickel Silver itself was bad, or if a ferrule maker got a bad batch of metal, then the metal might well fatigue too easily. Right? Harry Ray Gould wrote: Hi Steve and all,This question deserves a bit of probing. I've repaired hundreds of old rods many of which had cracked ferrules usually of the inexpensive type.Invariably the crack was longitudinal to the ferrule and not acircumferential failure. I have yet to see a nickel silver ferrule cracklike this including many that have had long years of service. Sometimes the crack seems to generate from the serration and sometimes from thehole where the ferrule pin was installed and sometimes just at random locations. Itdidn't seem to be correlated to how tightly the ferrule was fitted on the rod. One would think that the repeated bending of a ferrule might result in a circumferential crack. Perhaps ferrules that have been "drawn" in their manufacture have some residual stresses along their length that lead toearly failure.Ray----- Original Message -----From: "Steve Zimmerman" Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:09 AMSubject: Cracked ferrule I made a one-tip rod and went about a year without using it. It's been in its tube during that time. I took it out the other day and noticed that the male ferrule had split all along it's length. I've never seen thatbefore--but it's making me wonder if my other rods will do the same thing. What would have caused that? An air pocket? Expansion of the glue(I'm using Epoxy)? Moisture in the bamboo? I don't recall the specifics of this rod, but I'm not one who forces the ferrule on really tightly. --Steve -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from JNL123141@msn.com Wed Nov 7 22:39:33 2001 fA84dWN19592 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 22:39:32 -0600 Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:39:26 -0800 Subject: No answer for this one: FILETIME=[58AB8B40:01C1680F] About 7 or 8 years ago, Bill Waara and I helped a guy get started making =rods. He had a very unusual problem develop which I have never been able=to figure out.He finished a rod (not his first), put the ferrules on and varnished the =blank. After the blank had been hanging for about two weeks the butt sec=tion became bowed so much that if you tied a string end to end, the strin=g would have been at least 3" from the mid point.I told him how to straighten it and that it might wreck the varnish, whic=h it did. He got it straight and re-varnished again. After a week or so=it did it again, the same amount of bow in it. I have never seen this b=efore or since. Anybody out there encountered this or have an answer? About 7 or8 y= had a very unusual problem develop which I have never been able to figur=e out. He finished a rod (not his first), put the ferrules on = about two weeks the butt section became bowed so much that if you tied a = John&=nbsp; from robertgkope@home.com Wed Nov 7 23:18:56 2001 fA85ItN21236 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 23:18:55 -0600 femail47.sdc1.sfba.home.com Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule Steve, Are you storing strips in a tube with dessicant while you work on them? I have been doing this to maintain the low moisture levels after heattreating to ensure consistent dimensions of finished strips. I've oftennoticed that ferrules often get tighter for several months after finishing arod and have attributed this to the cane swelling as it comes to equilibriumwith the ambient humidity. I've also had ferrules get too tight to separateafter a long day of fishing in the rain, only to have them come apart easilyafter sitting at home for several days. I suspect that your split ferrulewas due to the cane swelling from moisture. How tight the fit was offerrule to cane should not make much difference because any voids are filledwith glue. -- Robert----- Original Message ----- Subject: Cracked ferrule I made a one-tip rod and went about a year without using it. It's been in its tube during that time. I took it out the other day and noticed that themale ferrule had split all along it's length. I've never seen thatbefore--but it's making me wonder if my other rods will do the same thing. What would have caused that? An air pocket? Expansion of the glue (I'm using Epoxy)? Moisture in the bamboo? I don't recall the specifics of this rod, but I'm not one who forces the ferrule on really tightly. --Steve from iank@ts.co.nz Thu Nov 8 00:06:52 2001 fA866oN24092 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:06:50 -0600 by sage.ts.co.nz (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fA868oi10829; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 19:08:50 +1300 using -f Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule and do ferrules swell? This is an interesting comment. I fit the ferrules to the blanks and then fitthe ferrules together. I had found that if the ferrules were fitted together before being mounted on the rod they tended to a little loose afterfitted to the rod. I think this is to do with the greater leaverage and better grip one gets when the ferrules are attached to a rod. But I have sometimes had a similar expereince to Robert in that a few weekslater when the rod has been varnished , polished etc the ferrules which were previously a perfect fit had become a little tight. I nowtend now to give the ferrules a final check and polish when I am polishing the rod which restores the fit but I had not given a lot of thought tothe reason . Steve, Are you storing strips in a tube with dessicant while you work on them? I have been doing this to maintain the low moisture levels after heattreating to ensure consistent dimensions of finished strips. I've oftennoticed that ferrules often get tighter for several months after finishing arod and have attributed this to the cane swelling as it comes to equilibriumwith the ambient humidity. I've also had ferrules get too tight to separateafter a long day of fishing in the rain, only to have them come apart easilyafter sitting at home for several days. I suspect that your split ferrulewas due to the cane swelling from moisture. How tight the fit was offerrule to cane should not make much difference because any voids arefilledwith glue. -- Robert----- Original Message -----From: "Steve Zimmerman" Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:09 AMSubject: Cracked ferrule I made a one-tip rod and went about a year without using it. It's been in its tube during that time. I took it out the other day and noticed that themale ferrule had split all along it's length. I've never seen thatbefore--but it's making me wonder if my other rods will do the same thing. What would have caused that? An air pocket? Expansion of the glue (I'm using Epoxy)? Moisture in the bamboo? I don't recall the specifics of this rod, but I'm not one who forces the ferrule on really tightly. --Steve -- Tasman Solutions Ltd. Real People in Cyber Space http://www.ts.co.nz from timklein@qwest.net Thu Nov 8 01:53:12 2001 Received: from fA87rBN27596 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 07:53:17 -0000 Received: from dnvrapanas08poola68.dnvr.uswest.net Nov 2001 07:53:17 -0000 Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:52:56 -0700 Message- 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I've read that the anthraxscare has the post office irradiating and/or electron bombarding mail. WhatI'd like to know is whether I can skip the heat treating step and just routebundles of strips through one of the east coast post offices for tempering...--- Tim > from ajthramer@hotmail.com Thu Nov 8 02:32:59 2001 Received: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:32:56 -0800 Received: from 12.33.21.6 bylw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:32:56 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.33.21.6] From: "Allen Thramer" Subject: RE: good rod, bad rod Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:32:56 +0000 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 ajthramer@hotmail.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Thisbrings up an excellent point that one's perfect rod may not be another. Kindof like defining a pretty color A.J. From: "Bob Maulucci" Subject: RE: good rod, bad rodDate: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:36:23 -0500 Larry:You and I must cast alike. I cannot cast a Payne or Dickerson taper half aswell as a Young, Garrison, or Hardy taper. Must be us.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 1:44 PM Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod I spent the entire weekend at SRG hanging my head because Iwas the only one there that did not fall in love with theLeonard 38. Just didn't like the way it cast. Everyone elsewas going to run home and build one. I sure fell in lovewith the Para 14 though! _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from "Marty D. aka \"none" Thu Nov 8 04:31:15 2001 fA8AVEN29695 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 04:31:14 -0600 (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4168. . Clean. Processed in 1.19258 secs); 08 Nov 200110:31:21 -0000 sender ) Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule and do ferrules swell? I believe it has more to do with oxidization (tarnish) of the male and femaleslide then swelling of the ferrule station. Marty IanKearney wrote: This is an interesting comment. I fit the ferrules to the blanks and then fitthe ferrules together. I had found that if the ferrules were fittedtogether before being mounted on the rod they tended to a little looseafter fitted to the rod. I think this is to do with the greater leaverageand better grip one gets when the ferrules are attached to a rod. But I have sometimes had a similar expereince to Robert in that a fewweeks later when the rod has been varnished , polished etc theferrules which were previously a perfect fit had become a little tight. I nowtend now to give the ferrules a final check and polish when I ampolishing the rod which restores the fit but I had not given a lot of thoughtto the reason . Steve, Are you storing strips in a tube with dessicant while you work on them? I have been doing this to maintain the low moisture levels after heattreating to ensure consistent dimensions of finished strips. I've oftennoticed that ferrules often get tighter for several months after finishingarod and have attributed this to the cane swelling as it comes toequilibriumwith the ambient humidity. I've also had ferrules get too tight toseparateafter a long day of fishing in the rain, only to have them come aparteasilyafter sitting at home for several days. I suspect that your split ferrulewas due to the cane swelling from moisture. How tight the fit was offerrule to cane should not make much difference because any voids arefilledwith glue. -- Robert----- Original Message -----From: "Steve Zimmerman" Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:09 AMSubject: Cracked ferrule I made a one-tip rod and went about a year without using it. It's been in its tube during that time. I took it out the other day and noticed that themale ferrule had split all along it's length. I've never seen thatbefore--but it's making me wonder if my other rods will do the samething. What would have caused that? An air pocket? Expansion of the glue(I'm using Epoxy)? Moisture in the bamboo? I don't recall the specifics of this rod, but I'm not one who forces the ferrule on really tightly. --Steve --Tasman Solutions Ltd.Real People in Cyber Spacehttp://www.ts.co.nz from VICBEEST@aol.com Thu Nov 8 05:41:50 2001 fA8BfoN00787 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 05:41:50 -0600 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 06:41:45 -0500 Subject: UK sources of Bamboo As a newbie still reading up and considering when to start: a fundamental question!Where to find a supplier of bamboo in the UK. Suggestions welcomed.Thanks in anticipation Peter Brindle. As a newbie still readingup and considering when to start: a fundamental question!Where to find a supplier of bamboo in the UK. Suggestions welcomed.Thanks in anticipation Peter Brindle. from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Thu Nov 8 06:19:29 2001 fA8CJSN01328 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 06:19:28 -0600 Subject: Re: In Light of the Recent Lapse in List Etiquette M-D, This is very well put, and these are thoughts that we should all keep withus(on and off the list). John K----- Original Message ----- Subject: In Light of the Recent Lapse in List Etiquette "Be such a man, and live such a life, that if every man were such as you,and every life a life like yours, this earth would be God's Paradise."Phillips Brooks We can't control anyone else's behavior, but we can control ours. We can'tcontrol the circumstances others will create, but we can with ours.Unfortunately, as long as there have been humans there have been thosewhodo not live in such a way as to bring good about. But there are always those who live lives that bring about good as well. Be one of those people. Be aperson who, after you are gone, your contribution will be missed and notsimply remembered. Do something everyday to make life around you goodforall those you come in contact with. The key is to be proactive. Don't dogood only if you have the opportunity. Create the opportunity and do goodalways. In doing so you will change the world around you. from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Nov 8 06:38:21 2001 fA8CcKN01773 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 06:38:20 -0600 Subject: Re: USPS In a message dated 11/8/1 7:54:05 AM, timklein@qwest.net writes: Might work, Tim, but if there is any mould on the cane, you might also end up explaining rod building theory to the FBI. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Nov 8 07:46:53 2001 fA8DkqN02784 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 07:46:52 -0600 Subject: Re: USPS/Time to stop this post Guys, No need to get this started on the list. Let's all try and keep it to rod stuff. This will just end up like the TA post and others that waste our time deleting.Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) Guys, time deleting.Bret (www.homestead.com/bambooovens/home.html) from baconrod@gsmrinc.com Thu Nov 8 08:05:52 2001 fA8E5qN03409 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:05:52 -0600 Subject: Re: blueing an lacquer Adam.The Aero Gloss is made by Midwest products65-1 Gloss Clear 1 oz.43- 1 Thinner 1 oz.mix 75% lac. and 25% thinner. apply with a Q-Tip only dampen do not soak the Q-Tip, coat and let dry for 30 min then recoat.Best Hal. from baconrod@gsmrinc.com Thu Nov 8 08:05:53 2001 fA8E5rN03414 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:05:53 -0600 Subject: Re: guide spacing for Payne 102 Tip. from tip top4 7/8 10 3/4 16 1/2 22 3/8 28 7/8 35 5/8 43 1/8 Butt from ferrule2 1/2 8 7/8 16 5/8 24 3/4 Best Hal. from teekay35@interlynx.net Thu Nov 8 08:15:43 2001 fA8EFgN04130 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:15:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Cracked ferrule and do ferrules swell? I find that with almost every rod I make the ferrules "grow" a little bit.If it was just oxidization the fit would be restored by cleaning, but Iusually have to polish them ever so slightly with 2000 grit wet paper. Inow carry two strips of wet 2000 paper in my wallet for this purpose. from ttalsma@macatawa.org Thu Nov 8 08:28:37 2001 fA8ESaN04921 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:28:37 -0600 id ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:22:31 -0500 id V8NVMKGZ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:22:28 -0500 Subject: Bounced!! Doh! I was bounced from the list overnight. If I missed anything that wouldbe good for the tips site, can someone fill me in? Thanks.-- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Nov 8 08:31:24 2001 Received: fromavocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.134.73] helo=g2t8c9) by 00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 08 Nov 2001 06:31:30 -0800 "Adam Vigil" From: "Adam Vigil" 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ihave had ferrule swell also. But get this, I live just barely above sea level So.Calif 25min from the beach. I fish up in Mammoth Mountain 6-7 thousand feetabove sea level. At home a rod the ferrule fitted perfect after a 5 hour driveup to the mountain when I got there the ferrule was tight, very tight.Hmmm..... Adam Vigil > from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Nov 8 08:35:40 2001 fA8EZdN05733 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: what to do with the list In-Reply- stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ihave rough plans for a CD, available sometime early in 2002. The archivesare not in any immediate danger of going away. I was just hoping that with500 people on this list maybe there is someone who could take on thisproject and do it better, with a search engine that could organize messages Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is better stetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproofcoat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 7 Nov2001, Adam Vigil wrote: I do not know if this can be done. But when the archive become so large andout grown the server it is on would it be plausible to dump all of thearchives onto CD? Make the CD available for sale and use the money to pay gatherings. This way a lot of the information will be preserved but toaccess the old post you would need to $ for the CD. I would much rather see it for sale then disapear altogether. Adam Vigil from tball@sault.com Thu Nov 8 09:14:56 2001 fA8FEtN07668 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:14:55 -0600 Subject: Re: good rod, bad rod It's nice to know that someone else has fallen in love with the PHY Para14. Tom in Trout Lake from mbiondo@wuacn.wustl.edu Thu Nov 8 09:46:28 2001 fA8FkRN09389 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:46:27 - for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:46:15 - Organization: Washington University in St. Louis Subject: Re: Future of searchable Rodmakers archives With all this talk about the archives, I suppose it's a good time to once again try to stress to the list the importance of editing your replies beforesending them back to the list. Please, please, only include enough of the original message to let folks know what you are replying about, and DELETE THE RESTOF THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE!!! I've include below a perfect example recently sent to the list. As you can see, all of Frank's original message was included in the reply. Did the whole message need to be included to get the point of the reply across? I think we can all agree that it did not. If Frank's entire message was deleted from the reply, leaving just the Subject line, would the point of the reply still be made? Most probably! As Frank mentioned, the archives are up to almost 70Meg. I am sure that*well* more than half of that 70 Meg is repeated content that serves no use otherthan to fill up the archives. Both Jerry Foster, and Frank Stetzer graciously give of their time, and some cases of there own money to maintain the archivesin a more accessible manner than that the LISTSERV provides. I sincerely believe that each and everyone of us owe both Jerry, and Frank our gratitude. Andthe easiest way to show that gratitude is to make easier for them, by simply spending a few extra seconds chopping text out of our replies text that isnot needed. Sure, it's a lot easier to just hit the reply key, add our words of wisdom, and send the message on it's way. But c'mon guys...it really only takes a few extra seconds of our time to edit our replies. If we want to insure thefuture of the archives on the web, the answer is not CD's, collecting money, or whatever...it's as simple as taking a few extra seconds with our replies. If any of you aren't sure about I am about, please contact me off list... Thanks guys!!! Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I really hope there is a way to keep this going. It works great and is incredibly useful. I for one am very appreciative of the work that has goneinto creating and maintaining the archive. From: Frank Stetzer Subject: Future of searchable Rodmakers archives This is kind of a "heads up" for those who make use of thesearchable list archives I put up. As the size of the archivesgrows (now almost 50,000 messages and 70 Megabytes) I can seethe day coming when my little homemade search tool will notbe adequate, and/or the day when the boss will say "Get thatcrap off the server." I'm hoping that someone can take over this project and give ita better home with a better set of tools. In the mean time I'llcontinue the monthly updates. Its not much work, just that itsgrowing too big to continue like this forever.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp from Grayson.Davis@valpo.edu Thu Nov 8 09:47:38 2001 fA8FlbN09592 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:47:37 -0600 fA8FlPC28233 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:47:25 -0600 Subject: Re: cutting a bead in NS? I tried several things, one at a time, and they all improved, but did not entirely solve, the problem. I found that: the bit was dull; the bit was too high on the work; and the bottom rake on part of the bit was almost zero degrees. I fixed those things (as best I could) but still needed what seemed like too much feed pressure producing too much heat. I can now cut my bead, but it is not being cut as I think it should. The first cuts work well, but, as I go deeper, the waste stops coming off instantly with every advance of the bit. Instead, I advance and advance with no shavings until I get a sudden thick cut. Sometimes this happens when I'm not advancing the bit. My current idea is that the "points" of my bit, at the sides of the bead, are too long and slender. Even though the shaft of the bit is not flexing noticeably, I think those points flex and rub rather than cut. When I increase the force sufficiently, they dig in. Tonight, or perhaps tomorrow --- rodmaking is OBVIOUSLY not my day-job --- I'm going to regrind my bit to make the radius of the bead greater, and make the points broader and shorter. I'm starting to get a good feeling about the direction this is taking. All the suggestions were helpful! This list is wonderful! I don't mind deleting lots of "bullwinkle" to get the advice of fellows who have "been there and done that." Thanks!---------------- -------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from bhoy551@earthlink.net Thu Nov 8 10:00:59 2001 fA8G0wN10587 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:00:58 - Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:01:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Future of searchable Rodmakers archives FILETIME=[91A3D8D0:01C1686E] While we're on the subject, watch your subjects! I use the archives extensively, and often try to find info that I remember was mentioned in posts, only to find that it was under an irrelevant subject line and effectively lost. In the last few days, we had a good thread about drying motors evolve into discussions about dust and tack cloths. You all know where the thread on Stanley planes went. All this great information that is buried in 500MB of archives. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE eyball your replies before you hit the send button. If you are starting a new thread, note it in the subject line. Rant off. Thanks, guys. At 09:46 AM 11/8/2001 -0600, Mike Biondo wrote: With all this talk about the archives, I suppose it's a good time to once againtry to stress to the list the importance of editing your replies before sendingthem back to the list. ...... _________________________________________________________________ DULY EDITED. Bill from rmoon@ida.net Thu Nov 8 10:19:53 2001 fA8GJqN11596 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:19:52 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2)Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 Subject: Re: Future of searchable Rodmakers archives Mike I have just spent some time searching the archives and I can only say that labor Ralph . -- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Nov 8 10:26:36 2001 fA8GQZN12194 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:26:35 -0600 ([209.178.134.73] helo=g2t8c9) id 161s0n-0006OA-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:26:42 -0800 Subject: List Archives CD I am glad to hear that the list is going to go on CD. As with any large bodyof information the day will come when it will need an archive that will beavailable in many locations, having it in one place could be a problem oneday. I as well as others would much rather be able to go through thearchives without being online for hours. Keep us apprised of developments on this project. I bet you could even getsome of us to prepaid for the CD archive to help defray any cost.(Just keepMark Metcalf away from the project). Adam Vigil from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Nov 8 11:11:46 2001 fA8HBjN14605 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:11:46 -0600 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:11:50 -0500 Subject: Replying to rodmakers The way I reply , is to reply with a new email to rodmakers and not hit =thereply all button. That way only my reply goes out to the list and not =the others original message with it.It's a little more time consuming, but It has to help out with the =archive thing.If we all did this there would not be as much residual left in the =archives.Is this the wrong way to go about it?All I do is click on rod makers in my contact list and of course I have =to type Re:(and the subject) into the subject box.Its a small pain ,but I figure its worth it.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT} hit thereply all button. That way only my reply goes out to the list and = others original message with it.It's a little more time consuming, but It has to help out with the = thing. archives.Is this the wrong way to go about it?All I do is click on rod makers in my contact list and of course I = type Re:(and the subject) into the subject box.Its a small pain ,but I figure its worth it.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/=bambooshop/home.html from ttalsma@macatawa.org Thu Nov 8 11:23:59 2001 fA8HNwN15375 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:23:58 -0600 id ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:17:52 -0500 id V8NVMKM2; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:17:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Replying to rodmakers Tony, The only problem with this approach is that it makes it hard for theemail clients to keep threads together. Every time you send out a newmessage, it starts a new thread. Tony Miller wrote: The way I reply , is to reply with a new email to rodmakers and nothit thereply all button. That way only my reply goes out to the list and notthe others original message with it.It's a little more time consuming, but It has to help out with thearchive thing.If we all did this there would not be as much residual left in thearchives.Is this the wrong way to go about it?All I do is click on rod makers in my contact list and of course Ihave to type Re:(and the subject) into the subject box.Its a small pain ,but I figure its worth it.Tony Millerwww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from flyfish@defnet.com Thu Nov 8 11:30:47 2001 Received: from MAA03532 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:30:51 -0500 Message-ID: From: Subject: Re: Replying to rodmakers Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:31:31 -0500 flyfish@defnet.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This did it here on this post.:) It has the same subject line. That should notconfuse anyone I wouldn't = think. Now if I used another subject line thatwould start a new thread. But isn't this the same thread. Am I getting itwrong? This is my first list serve, so I guess I could be mistaken.:)) Tonywww.homestead.com/bambooshop/home.html ------ BODY {BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; =BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Garamond MT } Ok I did ithere on this post.:) It has the same subject line. That should not subject line that would start a new = thread. But isn't this thesame thread. Am I getting it wrong? This is my first list serve,so I guess I could be = mistaken.:)) Tony www.homestead.com/= bambooshop/home.html - paul@lifeware.com Thu Nov 8 11:48:01 2001 Received: frommailserver.webwarriors.com (host227.lifeware.com [63.77.168.227] (may mailserver.webwarriors.com (Worldmail 1.3.167); 8 Nov 2001 12:42:12 - Subject: RE: Replying to rodmakers Date:Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:48:35 -0600 Message-ID: MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This is a multi-part message Tony Maybe there's an easier way. If you use MS Outlook you can go to"Tools" in the menu bar and then to "Options" Under options, click"Preferences" tabs and then "Mail Options" Half way down this window areyour options on how to reply to messages. Set the drop down window to "Donot include original message" If you have any problems, contact me off listand maybe I can help. Paul York www.paulyork.com------ 0DocumentEmail Tony Maybe there=92s an easierway. If you use MSOutlook you can go to =93Tools=94 in the menu bar = and thento =93Options=94 Under options, click =93Preferences=94 tabs and then=93Mail Options=94 = Half way down this window are your options on how toreply to messages. Set the drop = down window to =93Do not include originalmessage=94 If you have any problems, = contact me off list and maybe I can York www.paulyork.com from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Thu Nov 8 12:27:00 2001 fA8IQxN29520 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:26:59 -0600 Thu, 8 Nov 2001 18:27:04 +0000 Subject: Re: UK sources of Bamboo Peter ,Where do you live ?.........Paul VICBEEST@aol.com wrote: As a newbie still reading up and considering when to start: afundamental question!Where to find a supplier of bamboo in the UK. Suggestions welcomed.Thanks in anticipation Peter Brindle. from mbiondo@wuacn.wustl.edu Thu Nov 8 13:48:49 2001 fA8JmmN10575 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 13:48:48 - for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 13:48:36 - Organization: Washington University in St. Louis Subject: Re: Future of searchable Rodmakers archives Sorry guys, I managed to mangle the last line of my last message. If any of you aren't sure about I am about, please contact me off list... HUH!!? What I was really trying to say was that if anyone is not exactly sure how to go about editing the replies to the list, please contact me offlist. I will be happy to try and assist. Paul York, just gave a very good explanation if you are using Outlook Express. If you are using another mail program, let us know, I am sure we help... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Thu Nov 8 14:54:21 2001 fA8KsKN23338 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:54:20 -0600 Subject: Email support