from live2huntfish@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 00:22:06 2002 g116M5W14470 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:22:05 -0600 (216.241.172.186) Subject: RE: Different kind of line Cortland's 555 series line will also include clear floaters. Due outmid-March last Word from Cortland. Al Rittlive2huntfish@yahoo.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Different kind of line One of the lines I use and like very much is a Monic Phantom Line. It hasa 10' FLOATING clear tip. The rest of the line is a mono core and superslick normal line and has no memory. It shoots like a laser. The clear tipis great when casting over spooking trout because it cast no shadow overthewater. With a 12' leader you have 22' of clear line on the water. They arethe only one that has floating clear line..they have a patent on it. AirFlowwishes they had it. Adam Cortland's 555 series line will also include clear = out mid-March last Word from Cortland. owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Behalf Of Adam VigilSent: Thursday, January 31, 20028:44 = Different = line is a Monic Phantom Line. It has a 10' FLOATING clear tip. The rest of = like a laser. The clear tip is great when casting over spooking trout = it cast no shadow over the water. With a 12' leader you have 22' of = have a patent on it. AirFlow wishes they had it. Adam _________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from ajthramer@hotmail.com Fri Feb 1 02:19:44 2002 g118JiW16684 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 02:19:44 -0600 Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:19:38 -0800 Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:19:38 GMT Subject: Re: Fraud rods FILETIME=[30E88D10:01C1AAF9] Might be a big laugh! For mine at least. Perhaps the China rods? I don't think that many would be able to make the same rod that I do at the same price anyway. Better to go after one of the grossly overpriced rods out there. Minor Rant: I make a lot of classic taper rods, clearly marked with the taper and my own name. Most are of Leonard, Granger and Payne tapers. 2 out of 3 are 'still' in business. Total rod production between them is likely less than 3 or 4 months of my production. Excellent idea if you want to keep the price artificially high. The supply of original rods is drying up and the replacements are not really available to any average angler. The rods are similiar to, but not even close to the same as the original. Different ferrules, reelseats, thread pattern and color. I meant to do that. I don't want there to be any confusion, now or later. Achieving the quality of ANY of the three is no tough bar to reach. Machining identical hardware is not a big deal either. In other words, fakes are a real possibility, the skills needed are widely available from a dozen list members whose work I haveseen let alone those I have not. This is a result of an artificial manipulation of supply. The demand is high due to the numbers who are entering the 'bamboo' phase of the sport. If Payne, Leonard, FE Thomas, or Young were indeed having their footstepsbeing followed there would be rods generally available at a rational price. Any who have seen examples of Young, Leonard at the low points or Thomas rods from the last 5 or 10 years knows that the quality was indifferent at best. The rods I set out to make 17 years ago were in the shadow of the great production houses of Granger, phillipson, Heddon and Leonard. Never wanted it any other way. There was alot of doubt at first as to how good could the rods be for only 700-900, less now. The skill involved in making them is no less than in making a 2500 masterpiece, just different and in keeping with the traditions of our sport.A.J. But what do I know? I am still waiting to see a forgery of a Nunley rod oran AJ Thramer. Adam _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from ajthramer@hotmail.com Fri Feb 1 02:43:44 2002 g118hhW17182 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 02:43:43 -0600 Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:43:37 -0800 Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:43:37 GMT Subject: Articles FILETIME=[8AAA1F50:01C1AAFC] After reading both articles I was stunned at how ignorant they both are. Vacant of either reasonable research or knowlege. A victim of believing the self serving junk they have been fed by others. To be criticized by those lacking the drive and talent needed to either craft a decent rod or a decent article..... I am used to seeing this lack of proper research and critical thinking ony in PETA and Greenpeace members.A.J. _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Feb 1 03:11:51 2002 g119BmW18013 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 03:11:48 -0600 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Fraud rods Well said!! TY Minor Rant: I make a lot of classic taper rods, clearly marked with the taper and my own name. Most are of Leonard, Granger and Payne tapers. 2 out of 3 are 'still' in business. Total rod production between them is likely less than 3 or 4 months of my production. Excellent idea if you want to keep the price artificially high. The supply of original rods is drying up and the replacements are not really available to any average angler. The rods are similiar to, but not even close to the same as the original. Different ferrules, reelseats, thread pattern and color. I meant to do that. I don't want there to be any confusion, now or later. Achieving the quality of ANY of the three is no tough bar to reach. Machining identical hardware is not a big deal either. In other words, fakes are a real possibility, the skills needed are widely available from a dozen list members whose work I have seen let alone those I have not. This is a result of an artificial manipulation of supply. The demand is high due to the numbers who are entering the 'bamboo' phase of the sport. If Payne, Leonard, FE Thomas, or Young were indeed having their footsteps being followed there would be rods generally available at a rational price. Any who have seen examples of Young, Leonard at the low points or Thomas rods from the last 5 or 10 years knows that the quality was indifferent at best. The rods I set out to make 17 years ago were in the shadow of the great production houses of Granger, phillipson, Heddon and Leonard. Never wanted it any other way. There was alot of doubt at first as to how good could the rods be for only 700-900, less now. The skill involved in making them is no less than in making a 2500 masterpiece, just different and in keeping with the traditions of our sport.A.J. But what do I know? I am still waiting to see a forgery of a Nunley rod oran AJ Thramer. Adam _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Feb 1 03:17:08 2002 g119H5W18313 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 03:17:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Articles This is the trouble though and why it's not as hard as people may think to convince the great unwashed of anything advertising and dealers (this is meant as anybody other than the maker with a vested interest) want to tell people. You'd reckon these writers would know better wouldn't you?Now, imagine people believing this, standing in a shop or reading a catalogue comparing a truly decent rod at $1K with a Chinese one at $350 and the sales man armed with these articles convincing the punter there isn't as much to these over priced rods as everybody's been told all these years.All sounds pretty familiar to me. Tony At 08:43 AM 2/1/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: After reading both articles I was stunned at how ignorant they both are. Vacant of either reasonable research or knowlege. A victim of believing the self serving junk they have been fed by others. To be criticized by those lacking the drive and talent needed to either craft a decent rod or a decent article..... I am used to seeing this lack of proper research and critical thinking ony in PETA and Greenpeace members.A.J. _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from Lazybee45@aol.com Fri Feb 1 04:17:41 2002 g11AHeW19398 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 04:17:40 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:17:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Thank you Tony Spezio I got a nice little surprise from tony as well! Very kind and considerate. Also fun to read! nice to get a recipe that is not just dry recital of the basic pattern! Tony, you are inventive and creative! Keep it up! mark visit Marks Magic Workshop http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html from Lazybee45@aol.com Fri Feb 1 04:44:18 2002 g11AiIW19790 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 04:44:18 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:43:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Tube which end up? In a message dated 1/31/02 8:34:43 PM Central Standard Time, atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: PLease note, this is not an angry reply! Having worked for the USPS as well as UPS (2 years with the former, 10with the latter) I can tell you from experience that while some stuff like you mentioned might happen (and I can tell you stories about that!) 99% of the time, the folks at both are just too damned busy to attempt to do damage or "fool around" much. If you want to see people working fast and furiously, pop in at a UPS center some morning about 3 or 4 while they are doing the presort and loading the trucks. I know that at one point, I was loading 6 different vehicles, in stop for stop order and attempting to keep track of how many deliveries the driver makes. You can only be off by about 5 or 6 on each truck.Damage from stuff getting pushed off the belts? yeah! being dropped in the rush to process packages and possibly stepped on? No doubt! I was always appreceative of the people who went to the trouble to pack their stuff well so we didn't have to worry about damage! We had a couple of people in our center who did nothing BUT open suspected damage items and make surethey were all right, then repack them. One crazy story. One night in the Air Hub in Louisville (This was about 20 years ago and I did not work there!) A package came through that wasleaking fluid. (aside here! you would be surprised at what people send!) Leakers are ALWAYS checked, many are glass bottles and have fairly toxic stuff in them. This was about 1 or 2 AM of course, and The girl who opened the box tocheck the contents for damage shreeked and bolted from the building. The box had smiled at her! The contents were ....6 human heads! The leakage was the preservative fluid that they had been packaged in. And YES it was a legitimate shipper and receiver. Two medical research labs. I don't know if UPS still allows this, or even if it was "allowed" then. I think they were labled "Medical specimins" or some such. but you get used to stuff like that. I know I handled packages of frozen Bull semen and other wierd things I know the horror stories about packages, and sympathise. But I ALWAYS ship UPS if possible and have never had damage from them. At least not personally! I wish from a monitary point that I had stayed with them, but I went haring off to follow a different dream! mark visit Marks Magic Workshop http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Feb 1 04:45:31 2002 g11AjVW19948 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 04:45:31 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4184. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.531398 secs); 01 Feb 2002 10:45:28 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Fraud rods --------------040901010402070603050305 I really don't know. If a person has a Leonard with a short tip and had a complete restoration (including a new tip made)done by lets say Bob Taylor . Do we consider that rod original? I don't know. Marty Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: But how about restored rods by the original makers? I have a couple of Heddons that were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was re wrap them, fix lettering redo the reelseats and revarnish. He and his wife were both responsible for the work on these rods when they were new. Are these fraud rods now? Is a Garrison or Gillum or Zimny etc rod fraudulent because they may have been redone by the original makers and should they mark them as restored? Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ --------------040901010402070603050305 complete restoration (including a new tip made)done by lets say Bob Taylor. Do we consider that rod original? I don't know. Marty Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: of Heddonsthat were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was re wrap them, fix responsible Is a Garrison or Gillum or Zimny etc rod fraudulent because they may havebeen redone by the original makers and should they mark them asrestored? Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ --------------040901010402070603050305-- from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Feb 1 04:48:32 2002 g11AmVW20173 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 04:48:31 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4183. .Clear:0. Processed in 1.232432 secs); 01 Feb 2002 10:47:46 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Fraud rods That is what I'd call it! Marty Reed Curry wrote: Marty,While many experienced collectors can detect a restored rod, sometimes the work is done so artfully that the restoration is not apparent. In this case the prospective purchaser may believe that all the parts are original. Sometimes this is the intent of the seller/repairer...this is called fraud, is it not?Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Marty D. wrote: Every rod that is in restored condition should be considered as having replacement parts. I always felt that this is why restored rods have considerably less value than original ones. I know I have made more than a few tips for classics over the years. Marty from Lazybee45@aol.com Fri Feb 1 05:03:10 2002 g11B3AW20548 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:03:10 -0600 Subject: Re: China mfg inc. was the old masters @ FAOL In a message dated 1/31/02 11:02:25 PM Central Standard Time, avyoung@iinet.net.au writes: As a fanatic bicycle rider as well as fly fishing nut, I can attest to this as well. At one time the "BEST" bikes were made in USA or Europe. In many ways they still are. But Japan began to take over the component market. At one time Campagnolo was the premium component maker, then shimanobegan to gain, and truthfully Shimano makes GREAT stuff. But a really goodhandmade bicycle FRAME (only) made in USA or Europe will cost somewhere between$1200 and $3000. a complete Campy set of components, according to the latest catalog I have is around $1700 or so on top of that. Then you add stuff like the seat (I like the english made Brooks saddles, top quality and not terribly expensive) and front fork and on and on. Most of us peons discovered that bicycles are really great, but spending upwards of $1000 for one is not in the cards. at least not in MY cards! And where are the lower cost bikes made? China Viet Nam or Korea with Tiawan making theBest,(read that as $500 +) followed by China, Korean and Viet Nam. Watch, the manufacturers will be looking for lower pay markets yet. Your friendly Schwinn which used to be built in Chicago will soon be produced in Ho Che Min City if it isn't already! This is no exaggeration, Schwinn was just purchased Sears or Toys R us for Pacific bikes! They really arn't "bad" but something about that idea bugs me.mark visit Marks Magic Workshop http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html from kenealyj@gwi.net Fri Feb 1 05:40:44 2002 g11BehW21241 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:40:43 -0600 Subject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL Did people have a "personal backpackmaker?" This is the difference. If you look at the new cane rod market now, peoplearen't as interested in a rod from a company as they are from a singlecraftsman. Why do you think Powell is divesting of all their cane stuff?Cane rod making is a niche market of craftspeople- It is like a cabinetmaker. Yes, there are cabinets made all over, but there will always be room they millionaires? No, but most do well for themselves. If I owned a graphite rod company I would be worried. Some of the rods nowbeing made overseas are of good quality and the price is very low- believeme. I have Manufacturer's reps pushing this stuff on me all the time. Someof these rods are pretty good and they will take over a good chunk of themarket. John K----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL In every market the Chinese have gone after and actually taken forthemselves the current makers always said that.Backpacks were the best example I can think of. A company I worked for used to make as well as get in Lowe when the two brothers were making Lowe inthe US as well as Kelty. People would get these based on good reputationand the desire to have genuinely good gear, the thought China could makegear as good was not even considered, people chortled at the merest thought. Lowe then began making packs in Mexico and Ireland. They may still bemadein Mexico for the US market but for the rest of the world I *think* theIrish packs are now made in China. There may still be some made in Ireland I lost track of Kelty.It took less than 5 years to watch a market made up of customersdemandingthe best Lowe could make to wanting the cheapest "high quality" Chinesepacks to devolve.I've seen this in a few cases I was directly involved with. I took specialnotice of the packs because I was the stock controller and it was meworking out the orders and I hated to see what was happening. Same withboots, same with tents. Who would have thought they'd be trusting theirlives with Chinese tents at 8,000 meters on Everest 15 years back but it'spar for the course now.What seems to happen in every case I saw was the Chinese/Viet Namese/Korean gear was initially sold alongside the regular gear at a much reduced price, the bugs ironed out, finish improved.Next the price rises to a little under regular priced gear and salesmen are encouraged to push it because margins are much, much better.People begin to use the stuff and accept it, the better brands then recedeor get Chinese gear to sell as well under their own labels and the pricesrise again.Ultimately the Chinese gear prices reach what the better gear wasoriginally selling for. The importers and shops make a killing on margin. The thing is though the Chinese packs aren't as good as theUS/Irish/possibly Mexican packs. There are differences that make adifference as it were.The thread used on better packs is nylon. It wont rot so you get a packthat lasts as long as the fabric holds together, the problem if it can beseen as a problem is if the machinist trys to run the machine too fast thenylon thread will melt and break in the needle. The Chinese get around this doesn't last as long. If I'm wrong with rods I'll be very happy but if it doesn't happen it'll be because the people who would do this think the market is too small for this flanking attack. Tony At 03:13 PM 1/31/02 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: I really don't see a worry from Chinese rodmakers. In my short tenure ofmaking rods and in the many years that I have known rodmakers andpeople who like to fish cane rods, I have found that people want to know the person who is making the rod for them. the most imprtant thing is that relationshipwith the maker that allows for a rod to be matched to the buyer. As for undercutting us in price- we don't want that market anyway. My $.02 John K----- Original Message -----From: "Bill Walters" Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:36 PMSubject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL If the Chinese competition ever gets it right we mayall be up that creek you're talking about without avisible means of locomotion. Bill W. --- Harry Boyd wrote: Chris, Don't be too hard on JC. He spoke very highlyof one of my rods, as didDeanna, at the Fly Anglers Online Fish In last fall.In fact (insert big- headhere) it compared very favorably to Ron Kusse's. http://www.globalflyfisher.com/reports/fishin2001/index.php The rod's owneralso had nice things to say. JC has seen and cast literally thousands ofrods, many of them cane. Andhe personally thinks that the Gatti rods are thegreatest thing since slicedbread. I cast a Gatti once. Reminded me of a phonepole. Apparently JC andRon Kusse are close friends. Nothing wrong withthat. I've seen Kusse's rodsand was duly impressed. Ron has done his best tohelp me a coupla times, and Ireally appreciate it. As Hal Manas wrote, I don't find anything reallyoffensive in eitherarticle. I don't agree with them, but am notbothered by what JC and LF say.I do NOT wish for a return to anyone's idea of agolden age of bamboo when onlya double handful of companies were making rods. Ilike selling a few rods tohelp pay for my own, and to afford me the ability togive away a rod now andthen. If top of the line bamboo rods suddenly beganselling for $400, then allof us who sell for 2-5 times that amount might wellbe up a creek. Harry "Christopher A. Obuchowski, MD" wrote: If you guys were bothered by the "what's in a name" article, read "the old masters" column (www.flyanglersonline.com and click on "the old masters"). --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Feb 1 06:23:23 2002 g11CNKW21942 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 06:23:21 -0600 Subject: Re: Tube which end up? Seeing a few heads in a package sounds a lot like some scrums I've been in [:- )] I sent a rod in a tube to a guy once who wanted something else done to the rod after he received it and returned it. When I posted it back I glued the tube closed rather than just taped it. I called to make sure all was well and he told me the post man complained about not knowing what the rod looked like this time!!Obviously this particular postie was taking special interest in his deliveries [:-)] Tony At 05:43 AM 2/1/02 -0500, Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/31/02 8:34:43 PM Central Standard Time,atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: PLease note, this is not an angry reply! Having worked for the USPS as well as UPS (2 years with the former, 10withthe latter) I can tell you from experience that while some stuff like youmentioned might happen (and I can tell you stories about that!) 99% of thetime, the folks at both are just too damned busy to attempt to do damageor"fool around" much. If you want to see people working fast and furiously,pop in at a UPS center some morning about 3 or 4 while they are doing thepresort and loading the trucks. I know that at one point, I was loading 6different vehicles, in stop for stop order and attempting to keep track ofhow many deliveries the driver makes. You can only be off by about 5 or 6oneach truck.Damage from stuff getting pushed off the belts? yeah! being dropped intherush to process packages and possibly stepped on? No doubt! I was alwaysappreceative of the people who went to the trouble to pack their stuff wellso we didn't have to worry about damage! We had a couple of people in ourcenter who did nothing BUT open suspected damage items and make suretheywere all right, then repack them. One crazy story. One night in the Air Hub in Louisville (This was about 20years ago and I did not work there!) A package came through that wasleakingfluid. (aside here! you would be surprised at what people send!) Leakers areALWAYS checked, many are glass bottles and have fairly toxic stuff inthem.This was about 1 or 2 AM of course, and The girl who opened the box tocheckthe contents for damage shreeked and bolted from the building. The boxhadsmiled at her! The contents were ....6 human heads! The leakage was thepreservative fluid that they had been packaged in. And YES it was alegitimate shipper and receiver. Two medical research labs. I don't know ifUPS still allows this, or even if it was "allowed" then. I think they werelabled "Medical specimins" or some such. but you get used to stuff likethat. I know I handled packages of frozen Bull semen and other wierd things I know the horror stories about packages, and sympathise. But I ALWAYSship UPS if possible and have never had damage from them. At least notpersonally! I wish from a monitary point that I had stayed with them, but Iwent haring off to follow a different dream! mark visit Marks Magic Workshophttp://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Feb 1 06:23:50 2002 g11CNoW22006 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 06:23:50 -0600 Subject: Re: Leonard history bob@downandacross.com, rcurry@ttlc.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu That's right I couldn't remember his last name. He was living in the So. Bend area for a while and selling and building rods under the Leonard name if my memory serves me right. Last I knew he was working at an aluminumtubing distributor.Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ That's right I couldn't and selling and building rods under the Leonard name if my memory serves distributor.Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Feb 1 07:16:00 2002 g11DFqW22984 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:15:52 -0600 Subject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL That's like asking if somebody only ever drinks coffee at the same coffee lounge or bread from the one bakery. Some do, most don't.People do actually have personal backpack makers. High altitude summit packs are often made to measure from sail cloth. Some do, most don't. The issue isn't really what individuals actually want as a whole because most don't know a lot of the time as much as what is offered, I'm not talking individuals here but a market block and I'm assuming the day comes Chinese rods make it to the market, that may not happen and that would be great but if it does it'll be because somebody/s will be making enough or more margin than something else to do it.Once a cheap but reasonable product establishes a niche in the general market place it's pretty easy to market it as at least as good at a better price and for some reason the price seems to be able to rise over time without too much resistance. Most wont care and the shop guys wont know even if they did care. The real shame of it is if this occurred and forced out makers as soon as the market tapered out as it would there would be less makers around more or less like what happened in the 70's. Something to remember too is change is the only constant in marketing and while bamboo rods are still seen as sort of esoteric if large numbers of cheep ones suddenly arrived on the market and they were seen as something everybody needs and the price is right so why not all that can change pretty fast. I mean, who needs 95% of what's in the Bean catalogues and while I'm at it who thinks up 80% of what's in it the stuff presumably sells. If you take a look at Cabelas Chamois shirts you'll see what I mean.6 months back I went to the latest store to open and it was a hell of a place let me tell you if you've never been there.I bought two chamois shirts, one made in the US, and one made in Mexico. I just received another via mail last week and it's made in China.Now, have costs in the US and Mexico risen to the point Cabelas are making the shirts in China to maintain the fit and quality without having to pass on a rise in price OR are they selling a lower costing (to them) item that is really the same with an established niche and making substantially better margin because it's still at the same retail price? It may well be the former I obviously am not privy to the reason.Does anybody really care? I mean say you wanted a chamois shirt and saw Made In China on the label. Are you going to throw back on the rack and walk out?People have personal tailors. Some do, most don't. While we can't prevent a dilution of quality of rods IF we should not consider it unlikely and we should do what we can to make sure people do understand what a bamboo rod is and not what certain people would havethem believe. I know the types of bikes Mark was talking about in another post are light years distant but I remember seeing an advertisement here in the mid 70's.When Aust first started trading with China again there was a delegation of people who went there and my Social Science teacher was one of these. He really liked it there for some reason and had the walls of our room plastered with China stuff including some Tonkin bamboo incidentally. There was a poster for a Chinese brand of bike that had just started to be sold in Australia as a result of the "Open China" policy called Flying Pigeon which I though was such a great typically Asian type model name. It had a pic of Mao vintage happy workers riding side by side off to work with the slogan:"Flying Pigeon Brand, one half billion Chinese can't be wrong".I assume it was an Australian running pig capitalist dog that added the slogan [:-)] Tony At 06:43 AM 2/1/02 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Did people have a "personal backpackmaker?" This is the difference. If you look at the new cane rod market now, peoplearen't as interested in a rod from a company as they are from a singlecraftsman. Why do you think Powell is divesting of all their cane stuff?Cane rod making is a niche market of craftspeople- It is like a cabinetmaker. Yes, there are cabinets made all over, but there will always be room Arethey millionaires? No, but most do well for themselves. If I owned a graphite rod company I would be worried. Some of the rods nowbeing made overseas are of good quality and the price is very low- believeme. I have Manufacturer's reps pushing this stuff on me all the time. Someof these rods are pretty good and they will take over a good chunk of themarket. John K----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:07 AMSubject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL In every market the Chinese have gone after and actually taken forthemselves the current makers always said that.Backpacks were the best example I can think of. A company I worked for used to make as well as get in Lowe when the two brothers were making Loweinthe US as well as Kelty. People would get these based on good reputationand the desire to have genuinely good gear, the thought China could makegear as good was not even considered, people chortled at the merest thought. Lowe then began making packs in Mexico and Ireland. They may still bemadein Mexico for the US market but for the rest of the world I *think* theIrish packs are now made in China. There may still be some made inIreland I lost track of Kelty.It took less than 5 years to watch a market made up of customersdemandingthe best Lowe could make to wanting the cheapest "high quality" Chinesepacks to devolve.I've seen this in a few cases I was directly involved with. I took specialnotice of the packs because I was the stock controller and it was meworking out the orders and I hated to see what was happening. Same withboots, same with tents. Who would have thought they'd be trusting theirlives with Chinese tents at 8,000 meters on Everest 15 years back butit'spar for the course now.What seems to happen in every case I saw was the Chinese/Viet Namese/Korean gear was initially sold alongside the regular gear at a much reduced price, the bugs ironed out, finish improved.Next the price rises to a little under regular priced gear and salesmen are encouraged to push it because margins are much, much better.People begin to use the stuff and accept it, the better brands thenrecedeor get Chinese gear to sell as well under their own labels and the pricesrise again.Ultimately the Chinese gear prices reach what the better gear wasoriginally selling for. The importers and shops make a killing on margin. The thing is though the Chinese packs aren't as good as theUS/Irish/possibly Mexican packs. There are differences that make adifference as it were.The thread used on better packs is nylon. It wont rot so you get a packthat lasts as long as the fabric holds together, the problem if it can beseen as a problem is if the machinist trys to run the machine too fastthenylon thread will melt and break in the needle. The Chinese get around this doesn't last as long. If I'm wrong with rods I'll be very happy but if it doesn't happen it'll be because the people who would do this think the market is too small for this flanking attack. Tony At 03:13 PM 1/31/02 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: I really don't see a worry from Chinese rodmakers. In my short tenureofmaking rods and in the many years that I have known rodmakers andpeople who like to fish cane rods, I have found that people want to know the person who is making the rod for them. the most imprtant thing is thatrelationshipwith the maker that allows for a rod to be matched to the buyer. As for undercutting us in price- we don't want that market anyway. My $.02 John K----- Original Message -----From: "Bill Walters" Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:36 PMSubject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL If the Chinese competition ever gets it right we mayall be up that creek you're talking about without avisible means of locomotion. Bill W. --- Harry Boyd wrote: Chris, Don't be too hard on JC. He spoke very highlyof one of my rods, as didDeanna, at the Fly Anglers Online Fish In last fall.In fact (insert big- headhere) it compared very favorably to Ron Kusse's. http://www.globalflyfisher.com/reports/fishin2001/index.php The rod's owneralso had nice things to say. JC has seen and cast literally thousands ofrods, many of them cane. Andhe personally thinks that the Gatti rods are thegreatest thing since slicedbread. I cast a Gatti once. Reminded me of a phonepole. Apparently JC andRon Kusse are close friends. Nothing wrong withthat. I've seen Kusse's rodsand was duly impressed. Ron has done his best tohelp me a coupla times, and Ireally appreciate it. As Hal Manas wrote, I don't find anything reallyoffensive in eitherarticle. I don't agree with them, but am notbothered by what JC and LF say.I do NOT wish for a return to anyone's idea of agolden age of bamboo when onlya double handful of companies were making rods. Ilike selling a few rods tohelp pay for my own, and to afford me the ability togive away a rod now andthen. If top of the line bamboo rods suddenly beganselling for $400, then allof us who sell for 2-5 times that amount might wellbe up a creek. Harry "Christopher A. Obuchowski, MD" wrote: If you guys were bothered by the "what's in a name" article, read "the old masters" column (www.flyanglersonline.com and click on "the old masters"). --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Feb 1 07:56:19 2002 g11DuJW23769 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:56:19 -0600 (authenticated) for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:57:41 -0800 Subject: Re: Articles Along with reading the articles, you really should consider reading thefollow- ups on their Bulletin Board. Harry Allen Thramer wrote: After reading both articles I was stunned at how ignorant they both are. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 07:56:56 2002 g11DuuW23869 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:56:56 -0600 Feb 2002 05:56:55 PST Subject: Re: Articles that's kinda what i thot. had to run an article aboutsomething, heh? timothy --- Allen Thramer wrote: After reading both articles I was stunned at howignorant they both are. Vacant of either reasonable research or knowlege. Avictim of believing the self serving junk they have been fed by others. Tobe criticized by those lacking the drive and talent needed to either crafta decent rod or a decent article..... I am used to seeing this lack of proper research andcritical thinking ony in PETA and Greenpeace members.A.J. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSNHotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 07:58:31 2002 g11DwUW24186 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:58:31 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Fraud rods Marty, Bob Taylor does not own the Leonard name, so he cannot represent Leonard, despite having worked there. And, unless he owned the Leonard beveler, with the Leonard tip template, he could not accurately reproduce the tip anyway.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Marty D. wrote: I really don't know. If a person has a Leonard with a short tip and had a complete restoration (including a new tip made)done by lets say Bob Taylor . Do we consider that rod original? I don't know. Marty Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: But how about restored rods by the original makers? I have a couple of Heddons that were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was re wrap them, fix lettering redo the reelseats and revarnish. He and his wife were both responsible for the work on these rods when they were new. Are these fraud rods now? Is a Garrison or Gillum or Zimny etc rod fraudulent because they may have been redone by the original makers and should they mark them as restored? Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ -- > from jerryy@webtv.net Fri Feb 1 08:10:09 2002 Received: frommailsorter- 105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (mailsorter-105- storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id ETAsAhRgM5N3SXHtenrCHXg1CugZR2m1aQIUaqkxd9UlXIw9InajDAIQxUhtlp0= Grhghlndr@aol.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Fraud rods message of Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:01:28 -0500 Content-Disposition: Inline jerryy@webtv.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENBelieve the H.L. Leonard name is now owned by Brian J. McGrath. I believe hewas the publisher of Fishing Collectibles Mag. Now the rod building has beenrelocated to Houston, TX. Jerry Young > from ttalsma@macatawa.org Fri Feb g11EBUW24951 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:04:23 -0500 Received: (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) idD56AMBXA; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:04:18 -0500 From: Todd Talsma Message-ID:Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:07:56 - Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Neat old makers' brochures online References:Content-Type: ttalsma@macatawa.org Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Don'twant to put a damper on all of this great sharing going on, but do we need tobe concerned with any copyright issues when we're posting publishedinformation, or is there some "statute of limitations" for published articles?Signed, Legally puzzled in Holland.-- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from baconrod@gsmrinc.com Fri Feb 1 08:21:37 2002 Received: from roc- g11ELaW25562 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:21:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Fraud rods Reed and Others.After the Bankruptsy sale at Leonard The 2 Bevellers went to MarkAraner the second beveller was minus the head which Bob Taylor has. Therewas 3 bevellers built by Brown Engineering for Leonard after the firedestroyed the Ruben Leonard beveller. I owned the third beveller which Isold to REC when I sold the Payne Trade name and equipment. I now own theGeorge Halstead equipment. His beveller was designed after the PayneBeveller but with his modifications. Dan good machine. The Leonard tradename was sold by Larry Foster to Brian McGraph of Houston Tex.back in theearly 90's or late 80's. Back in the 70's I used to repair the bevellers atLeonard. Ask Ted Sin he will tell you about Leonard history of who did what.Ted was on the board of Directors at Leonard up to the last.Best Hal.--- -- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Fraud rods Marty,Bob Taylor does not own the Leonard name, so he cannot representLeonard, despite having worked there. And, unless he owned the Leonardbeveler, with the Leonard tip template, he could not accuratelyreproduce the tip anyway.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Marty D. wrote: I really don't know. If a person has a Leonard with a short tip and hada complete restoration (including a new tip made)done by lets say BobTaylor . Do we consider that rod original? I don't know. Marty Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: But how about restored rods by the original makers? I have a coupleof Heddons that were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was rewrap them, fix lettering redo the reelseats and revarnish. He and hiswife were both responsible for the work on these rods when they werenew. Are these fraud rods now? Is a Garrison or Gillum or Zimny etcrod fraudulent because they may have been redone by the originalmakers and should they mark them as restored? Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ -- from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 08:29:07 2002 g11ET6W26053 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:29:06 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Fraud rods Hal, Great, finally I can get a knowledgeable answer to the eternal question- -- can a Leonard rod be reproduced by handplaning? The templates (patterns) used on the bevelers, did they exhibit sudden increases or decreases that could not be replicated by the spline curves possible in bending a thick steel form on 5" centers? Thanks.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Feb 1 08:34:16 2002 g11EYDW26421 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:34:14 -0600 Subject: Re: Fraud rods The $64,000 question. At 09:32 AM 2/1/02 -0500, Reed Curry wrote: Hal,Great, finally I can get a knowledgeable answer to the eternal question--- can a Leonard rod be reproduced by handplaning? Thetemplates (patterns) used on the bevelers, did they exhibit sudden increases or decreases that could not be replicated by the spline curves possible in bending a thick steel form on 5" centers?Thanks.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 08:35:27 2002 g11EZPW26557 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:35:25 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Neat old makers' brochures online Todd, The Copyright Act was revised in l976 to give much longer (almost indefinite) extension of copyright. That is why most of the Extracts on my Extracts page are so old. However, I could use newer works since my page is non-commercial and educational, under section 107 of the law - Fair Use. See http://www.loc.gov/copyright/title17/92chap1.html#107To anser your question about the Thomas and other catalogues, they would be covered under 107 #2 an #4, IMHO. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Todd Talsma wrote: Don't want to put a damper on all of this great sharing going on, but dowe need to be concerned with any copyright issues when we're postingpublished information, or is there some "statute of limitations" forpublished articles? Signed, Legally puzzled in Holland. -- > from ttalsma@macatawa.org Fri Feb 1 08:38:13 2002 Received: from Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:31:15 -0500 Received: from macatawa.org (TODDT Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id D56AMBYG; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:31:10 - Cc: Rodmakers List 09:34:48 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Thanks Reed, I'm glad wehave a copyright lawyer out here. ;^) I just wasn't sure about it. Reed Currywrote: Todd,The Copyright Act was revised in l976 to give much longer (almostindefinite) extension of copyright. That is why most of the Extracts onmy Extracts page are so old. However, I could use newer works since mypage is non-commercial and educational, under section 107 of the law - Fair Use. See http://www.loc.gov/copyright/title17/92chap1.html#107To anser your question about the Thomas and other catalogues, they wouldbe covered under 107 #2 an #4, IMHO. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Todd Talsma wrote: Don't want to put a damper on all of this great sharing going on, but dowe need to be concerned with any copyright issues when we're postingpublished information, or is there some "statute of limitations" forpublished articles? Signed, Legally puzzled in Holland. -- -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 08:41:43 2002 Received: from mail.ttlc.net 09:44:48 -0500 From: Reed Curry User-Agent:Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 CC: Rodmakers ListSubject: Re: Neat old makers' brochuresonline References: Content-Type: text/plain; rcurry@ttlc.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Todd,How unkind, I'm not a lawyer... just an innocent who can read. [:)] Bestregards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ Todd Talsma wrote: Thanks Reed, I'm glad we have a copyright lawyer out here. ;^) I just wasn't sure about it. Reed Curry wrote: from rmoon@ida.net Fri Feb 1 09:12:44 2002 g11FCiW29150 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:12:44 -0600 rcurry@ttlc.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Leonard history --------------248F76E77D96C7AEA05A9B34 Bret That was Larry Foster. I don't have any updated address for him Ralph Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: But wasn't Leonard picked up after that by a guy named Larry? Andcontinued to operate again or was this Larry guy there in 82/ Winston,the guy was in South Bend and somehow mixed up with JG who had theflyshop in SB at the time. Do you know who I am talking about?Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ --------------248F76E77D96C7AEA05A9B34 RalphGrhghlndr@aol.com wrote:Butwasn't to operate again or was this Larry guy there in 82/ Winston, the guy wasin South Bend and somehow mixed up with JG who had the flyshop in SB at Brethttp://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ --------------248F76E77D96C7AEA05A9B34-- from tfbinn@mindspring.com Fri Feb 1 09:44:39 2002 g11FicW00716 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:44:38 -0600 helo=7yjg501) id 16Wfrb-0003Ir-00; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:44:32 -0500 , , Subject: Re: Leonard history Bret,I really know very little about Leonard history but Larry Foster is an =acquaintance. As I understand it he was the last G.M. at Leonard before =the end. He came out of the Leonard bankruptcy with the Leonard name and=odds and ends of Leonard stuff. I assembled and wrapped a few cane rods = blanks but I don't know if they came from "original" Leonard stock or =were built for Larry. They were assembled using Leonard components =(marked butt caps, etc.) and as the owner of the name I believe he had =the right to use them. He moved to Indiana in the early 90's and finally =sold the Leonard name to a fellow who published a magazine if I remember =correctly. The last I knew Larry was living in Mishawaka Ind. and was =working for the school system.Winston Bret,I really know very little about Leonard = Larry Foster is an acquaintance. As I understand it he was the last G.M. = Leonard before the end. He came out of the Leonard bankruptcy with the = name and odds and ends of Leonard stuff. I assembled and wrapped a few = but I don't know if they came from "original" Leonard stock or were = Larry. They were assembled using Leonard components (marked butt caps, = as the owner of the name I believe he had the right to use them. He = Indiana in the early 90's and finally sold the Leonard name to a fellow = living in Mishawaka Ind. and was working for the school =system.Winston from rextutor@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 09:52:36 2002 g11FqZW01447 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:52:35 -0600 01 Feb 2002 07:52:34 PST Subject: Leonard History rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Maybe some of you knew this but Leonard rods areapparently still being made. I don't know if bevelersand templates are in use but the Leonard name isobservable. Brian J. McGrath advertises athttp://www.hlleonard.com/catalog.html. I have been reading M Keanes book. This rods in the19th century were $30 compare them today at $2700. --- Jerry Young wrote: Believe the H.L. Leonard name is now owned by BrianJ. McGrath. Ibelieve he was the publisher of Fishing CollectiblesMag. Now the rodbuilding has been relocated to Houston, TX. Jerry Young __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from baconrod@gsmrinc.com Fri Feb 1 10:21:39 2002 g11GLcW02862 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:21:38 -0600 Subject: Re: Leonard History Rex.Brian is selling a few rods today. They were built by Ron McKinley inthe past, on blanks made by me on the beveller using the original Leonardtapers. Since Ron stoped making rods he sold his equipment to me. I an nowmaking the Leonard rods for Brian in my shop. Last year there was a writeupin Town and Country Mag. about the Hunt 38-4 rod.Best Hal.----- Original Message ---- - Subject: Leonard History Maybe some of you knew this but Leonard rods areapparently still being made. I don't know if bevelersand templates are in use but the Leonard name isobservable. Brian J. McGrath advertises athttp://www.hlleonard.com/catalog.html. I have been reading M Keanes book. This rods in the19th century were $30 compare them today at $2700. --- Jerry Young wrote: Believe the H.L. Leonard name is now owned by BrianJ. McGrath. Ibelieve he was the publisher of Fishing CollectiblesMag. Now the rodbuilding has been relocated to Houston, TX. Jerry Young __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com from ctcaneman@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 10:24:06 2002 g11GO5W03170 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:24:05 -0600 01 Feb 2002 08:24:05 PST Subject: H.L. Leonard With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and acollectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from stoltz10@attbi.com Fri Feb 1 10:44:16 2002 g11GiGW04967 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:44:16 -0600 Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:44:07 +0000 Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard That was the point I was trying to make yesterday. I can see paying a lotof money for a historical piece, but when see new rods with bigmanufacturesname on it and a $2000 price tag on it you really got to question what youare paying for, the rod or the name? Plus if I was to turn into a collectorI think I would try to collect the rods made by the people on this list. Tome it would be much more interesting to own rod made by people who I knowthrough the list and know their philosophy behind their rods. Tim----- Original Message ----- Subject: H.L. Leonard With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and acollectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com from bob@downandacross.com Fri Feb 1 10:52:45 2002 g11GqiW05622 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:52:45 -0600 1 Feb 2002 11:52:37 -0500 Subject: RE: Fraud rods Hi Hal:Thanks for the great info. I have a few questions that always pop up whenguys talk about mills...1. Beveller vs. mill. Which is the preferred method to cut strips?2. What do you feel is the optimal cutter speed. Does it change for bevellervs. mill.3. What do you think is the best way to pursue building a mill?4. Is there a source that could provide pictures of some of the master'sbevellers or mills? I know of Chris's excellent post regarding publishedpics.I have good pics of the Dickerson mill, but what about those machines ofLeonard, Payne, Gillum, Edwards, Thomas, etc.... I have always thought thiswould be a fascinating topic for a book...the machinery of split cane flyrods.Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have been pursuing several millslately and am excited to pick them up, but ultimately want to build my own.I want to run these until I know exactly what I want to work with, and thenI will build it.Best regards,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fraud rods Reed and Others.After the Bankruptsy sale at Leonard The 2 Bevellers went to MarkAraner the second beveller was minus the head which Bob Taylor has. Therewas 3 bevellers built by Brown Engineering for Leonard after the firedestroyed the Ruben Leonard beveller. I owned the third beveller which Isold to REC when I sold the Payne Trade name and equipment. I now own theGeorge Halstead equipment. His beveller was designed after the PayneBeveller but with his modifications. Dan good machine. The Leonard tradename was sold by Larry Foster to Brian McGraph of Houston Tex.back in theearly 90's or late 80's. Back in the 70's I used to repair the bevellers atLeonard. Ask Ted Sin he will tell you about Leonard history of who did what.Ted was on the board of Directors at Leonard up to the last.Best Hal. from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Fri Feb 1 10:57:54 2002 g11GvrW06145 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:57:53 -0600 Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Organization: Wethersfield Public Schools Can't see paying that kind of money for a name. I would much rather havea rod made by anyone on this list at a fair price, I don't think anyonehere is asking more than what there rods are worth. But, $2750.00!? Pete -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard That was the point I was trying to make yesterday. I can see paying alot of money for a historical piece, but when see new rods with bigmanufactures name on it and a $2000 price tag on it you really got toquestion what you are paying for, the rod or the name? Plus if I was toturn into a collector I think I would try to collect the rods made bythe people on this list. To me it would be much more interesting to ownrod made by people who I know through the list and know their philosophybehind their rods. Tim----- Original Message ----- Subject: H.L. Leonard With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and a collectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 11:08:21 2002 g11H8KW06862 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:08:20 -0600 Feb 2002 09:08:14 PST Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard bigger bragging rights?! --- Paul Hamm wrote: With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and acollectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from darrell@vFish.net Fri Feb 1 11:28:44 2002 g11HSiW08360 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:28:44 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:28:43 -0600 Subject: RE: H.L. Leonard Tim, Collecting rods from makers on the list could be very interesting. However,like art, the artist or craftsman has to croak for the value to rise... Ormaybe sever an ear or other body part... 50 years from now, they would probably prove to be wise investmentsbecausemost of the listers will have a very limited number of rods produced.Scarcity increases value. Interesting, the rods that sell for the most money tend to be great fishingrods rather than historical and rare antique rods... i.e. a 6.5' Dickersonor Garrison will sell for a lot more than a 120 year old ultra- rarehistorical antique rod. The BFR collecting community has a ways to go asfar as collecting trends. I recently purchased a George Varney rod and a Varney Brothers rod circa1894-1900, both in excellent original condition and paid at auction muchless than I feel the true value of them are. No, they are not for sale...They are now part of my Montague rod collection... I feel Varney is part ofthe history of Montague and so I was estatic when I finally received them.Bizarre, eh? It appears that Varney made much of the hardware for the old dead guys...Payne, Thomas, Edwards, Kosmic and is also linked to HL Leonard as well. Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 ==================Angling, collecting & rod making books at:http://www.vfish.net/files/acebooks7.PDF================== -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard That was the point I was trying to make yesterday. I can see paying a lotof money for a historical piece, but when see new rods with bigmanufacturesname on it and a $2000 price tag on it you really got to question what youare paying for, the rod or the name? Plus if I was to turn into a collectorI think I would try to collect the rods made by the people on this list. Tome it would be much more interesting to own rod made by people who I knowthrough the list and know their philosophy behind their rods. Tim----- Original Message ----- Subject: H.L. Leonard With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and acollectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com from Kengorific@aol.com Fri Feb 1 11:29:23 2002 g11HTNW08502 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:29:23 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:29:01 -0500 Subject: small scraper plane I have been reading Jack Howell's 'The Lovely Reed' , in this section on tools he has aphoto of his favorite plane, a small bodied scraper by Conover Woodcraft. Does anyone know where I can get one? The construction looks simple, I might try to make one if I knew the blade angle and bevel dimensions. Thanks, Ken from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Feb 1 11:45:15 2002 g11HjEW09597 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:45:14 -0600 g11Hj9801857 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:45:09 -0600 Subject: Splitting Bamboo Thought this might help someone that has notfigured out how to split in thirds.I was splitting a culm yesterday and found to getthe most out of the culm I really needed to splitin thirds. After splitting half, half and half,the strips would be too wide if I split in halfand too narrow if I split those in half again.That means splitting in thirds. In splittingthirds, the narrow strip will have a tendency towalk to the outside giving you a splinter spearabout halfway through the split.A way to counter this is real simple. Start the1/3 rd split and work the fro or knife through thesplit for about a foot or so. Where the splitstarts, put the edge of "fat" end against a post,workbench or something solid. Grab the bambooabout half way down the length and hold it againstyour waist,Now put the pressure you need against the bamboobending the "fat" side away from you. The splitwill stay straight. If it does want to go to theoutside of the narrow strip, put some morepressure on the "fat" end and the split will moveto the "fat" side. Decrease pressure if it travelstoo much to the "fat" sideStarted doing this after I wasted a lot of thefirst culm I split.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from rextutor@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 11:53:41 2002 g11HreW10475 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:53:40 -0600 01 Feb 2002 09:53:39 PST Subject: Re: Leonard History RodMakers Listserve HalI hope you don't mind if I share this discussion withthe list. I am interested in the history of bamboo forits own sake, maybe others might be curious ,too. Have you ever hand planned a rod ? I am assuming thebeveler does final dimensions, right ? Could youcompare the results of the Leonard beveler with handplanning ? Is it faster ? more accurate ? hard to do ?etc TIA--- Harold Bacon wrote: Rex.Brian is selling a few rods today. They werebuilt by Ron McKinley inthe past, on blanks made by me on the beveller usingthe original Leonardtapers. Since Ron stoped making rods he sold hisequipment to me. I an nowmaking the Leonard rods for Brian in my shop. Lastyear there was a writeupin Town and Country Mag. about the Hunt 38-4 rod.Best Hal.----- Original Message ---- -From: "Rex Tutor" Cc: "Marty D." ;; Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 10:52 AMSubject: Leonard History Maybe some of you knew this but Leonard rods areapparently still being made. I don't know if bevelers and templates are in use but the Leonard name isobservable. Brian J. McGrath advertises athttp://www.hlleonard.com/catalog.html. I have been reading M Keanes book. This rods in the 19th century were $30 compare them today at $2700. --- Jerry Young wrote: Believe the H.L. Leonard name is now owned by Brian J. McGrath. Ibelieve he was the publisher of Fishing Collectibles Mag. Now the rodbuilding has been relocated to Houston, TX. Jerry Young __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Fri Feb 1 12:12:26 2002 g11ICQW11554 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:12:26 -0600 Subject: RE: H.L. Leonard Organization: Wethersfield Public Schools Bigger tears when you break the thing too! -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard bigger bragging rights?! --- Paul Hamm wrote: With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and a collectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Feb 1 12:15:06 2002 g11IF6W11842 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:15:06 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4184. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.625527 secs); 01 Feb 2002 18:15:01 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Fraud rods OK then, if B. McGrath restored (I actually think it's Ron McKinley who was/is the rodmaker ) a 1970's Leonard including making a new tip do we consider that rod original? No! Marty Jerry Young wrote: Believe the H.L. Leonard name is now owned by Brian J. McGrath. Ibelieve he was the publisher of Fishing Collectibles Mag. Now the rodbuilding has been relocated to Houston, TX. Jerry Young from rkrees@mcn.net Fri Feb 1 12:24:23 2002 g11IOMW12693 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:24:22 -0600 helo=rkrees.mcn.net) id 16WiMF-00003b-00; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:24:20 -0800 Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Darrell said"Or maybe sever an ear or other body part.." Bob How much did you say your rods were?. from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Fri Feb 1 12:34:04 2002 g11IY3W13330 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:34:03 -0600 Subject: RE: H.L. Leonard Organization: Wethersfield Public Schools A new Leonard will run you $2750.00 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Darrell said"Or maybe sever an ear or other body part.." Bob How much did you say your rods were?. from gord@teleport.com Fri Feb 1 12:55:39 2002 g11ItdW14339 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:55:39 -0600 helo=there) id 16WiqX-0000iT-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:55:38 -0800 who from prodcane@netscape.net Fri Feb 1 13:23:28 2002 g11JNSW16683 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:23:28 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:23:21 -0500 Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:23:21 -0500 Subject: not a dealer? then delete! Hi,I have my beveller fine tuned and capable of machining cane to to finishedsize faster than a Chinese sweat shop. The dimensional and angular accuracy is far superior to hand planed strips and the saving in wear and tear on thebody is immeasurable. I have a lathe converted to cnc for ferrules a range of tooling and presses I will be engineering rods full time in the classic tradition and a lot of them!If there are any professional dealers out there that can shift cane rods thengive me a call. I might also be interested in outsourcing finishing.Terry Acklanduse hexagon@odyssee.net -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mailaccount today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > from fbcwin@3g.quik.comFri Feb 1 13:24:09 2002 Received: from q4.quik.com (q4.quik.com 2002 11:25:40 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept- Subject: Block plane tuning sites Content- fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENFriends, Once again I ask your help. I'm looking for a web article on fine tuningblock planes so that they work best. The link from Rodmakers to FineWoodworking doesn't seem to come up with what I'm looking for, but Iremember that as a helpful article. I'd like to send this to a friend, so anyhelp you can give will help more than me. Thanks, Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ --Our Church -- > from harms1@pa.net Fri Feb 1 13:24:28 2002 Received: References:Subject: Re: small scraper plane Date: MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 harms1@pa.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ken,This little tool looks very nice, but it really doesn't work very well for ourpurposes. Or, at least, that has been my experience. I bought one aboutthree years ago, but it leaves little "chatter marks" on the surface. I thinkperhaps the problem is just that it doesn't have enough overall mass toproduce a nice, smooth surface. It is possible that I haven't been sharpeningand burnishing the little iron quite properly, yet I seem to have no difficultydoing this on my 3" x 5" hand-held scraper. So, that's all I ever use now. I'll behappy to send you the little Conover scraper as a gift (that is if I can locatethe damn thing in my mess) if you will send me your address. cheers, Bill ----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:29 PMSubject: small scraper plane I have been reading Jack Howell's 'The Lovely Reed' , in this section ontools he has aphoto of his favorite plane, a small bodied scraper by Conover Woodcraft. Does anyone know where I can get one? The constructionlookssimple, I might try to make one if I knew the blade angle and beveldimensions. Thanks, Ken from ttalsma@macatawa.org Fri Feb 1 13:51:33 2002 g11JpWW18815 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:51:32 -0600 id ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:44:35 -0500 id D56AMB9Y; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:44:33 -0500 Rodmakers List Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Peter, I think he was talking about Bob Nunley. He's pretty close to severinga body part anyway, right? Peter Van Schaack wrote: A new Leonard will run you $2750.00 -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:26 PM Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Darrell said"Or maybe sever an ear or other body part.." Bob How much did you say your rods were?. -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from Mark.Babiy@stel.tdsb.on.ca Fri Feb 1 14:04:01 2002 Received: from Date: Kengorific@aol.com Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu From: "Mark Babiy"References: Mark.Babiy@stel.tdsb.on.ca Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ken, Igot one from Woodcraft. I would agree with Bill. It is not that great oraccurate, but I do use it to take glue off a rod. The throat is a little too smalland gets easily jammed up with shavings. Its not a bad tool, but I think that Iwould rather put the $30 towards the Lie Neison scraper plane. I have usedall kinds of things to scrape and lately have been using a razor blades withsuccess. Lee Valley also sells these tiny little scrapper blades that work well.Mark > from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 14:16:46 2002 Received: from 15:19:42 -0500 From: Reed Curry User-Agent:Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Mark.Babiy@stel.tdsb.on.ca CC: Kengorific@aol.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: small scraper plane References: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Mark, The cheapest solution,and no sharpening required, is window glass. A glass cutter, a straightedgeand some glass gives you plenty of disposable scrapers. Best regards, Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Mark Babiy wrote: Ken, I got one from Woodcraft. I would agree with Bill. It is not that greator accurate, but I do use it to take glue off a rod. The throat is alittle too small and gets easily jammed up with shavings. Its not a badtool, but I think that I would rather put the $30 towards the Lie Neisonscraper plane. I have used all kinds of things to scrape and lately havebeen using a razor blades with success. Lee Valley also sells these tinylittle scrapper blades that work well. Mark . -- > from darrell@vFish.net Fri Feb 1 14:42:24 2002 Received: from g11KgNW21776 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 , "Reed Curry" Cc: "rod"Subject: RE: Restored rods are notnecessarily Fraud rods Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:41:31 -0800 Message-ID: Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu rod is not a fraud, it's how it's represented... i.e. if the seller informs thebuyer that the tip was scarfed, the rod restored, etc... then it is not fraud ifall work or defects were truthfully disclosed. If all the work was disclosed,the buyer can make an informed decision and then buy, not buy or reject therestored rod... It's when a seller does not disclose the defects or work donethat fraud occurs... Soooo... what you have is a fraud seller, not a fraudrod... You cannot convict a BFR of fraud, just the seller. Intentionalmisrepresentation is fraud... I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I see it. Hey it'sjust like real estate or buying anything of value, let the buyer beware... Thisis why some buyers prefer buying thru dealers in that when they receive therod in the mail, they usually have a time period to return the rod if it doesnot meet with their expectations. Generally when you buy on auctions orebay, there is no right to return policy. This is why rods on ebay usually sell for a lot less 25-50% lessthan thru dealers. I've bought many rods on ebay that I thought was a greatbuy and it turned out to be junk... Undisclosed broken tips, delaminatedsections, a HL Leonard that was really an H-I with HL Leonard written on therod... As careful as I am, I still get taken occasionally and that has tobe factored in. It is easily worth 25-30% more to deal with a dealer that offers a returnpolicy when you are only buying 1-3 rods per year. I usually buy 20-30 rodsper month so if I get stung once in awhile, then it's not that big a deal.But if someone has their heart set on a rod and gets gypped, then he will bevery upset... Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 ==================Angling, collecting & rod making books at:http://www.vfish.net/files/acebooks7.PDF================== -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fraud rods That is what I'd call it! Marty Reed Curry wrote: Marty,While many experienced collectors can detect a restored rod,sometimes the work is done so artfully that the restoration is notapparent. In this case the prospective purchaser may believe that allthe parts are original. Sometimes this is the intent of theseller/repairer...this is called fraud, is it not?Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Marty D. wrote: Every rod that is in restored condition should be considered ashaving replacement parts. I always felt that this is why restoredrods have considerably less value than original ones. I know I havemade more than a few tips for classics over the years. Marty from darrell@vFish.net Fri Feb 1 14:42:24 2002 g11KgNW21780 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:42:23 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:42:22 -0600 Subject: RE:Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... seenext email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it was restored rodswere not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that were not made by him,but last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... he restoresarod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to bejust as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. Payne Rod Co.last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't the value of therod be equal? How about 30 years from now and the provenance is lost, whenthere is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling you that myopinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion thenfine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up for sale and it'spriced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blow and you feel it isoverpriced because it was not restored by the original Grand Ole Master(whoever that might be) then you feel the value is lower and might bewilling to only spend yyy dollars and pass on the rod. That is how the freemarket works... everyone has their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restored rod.Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50 years, 7owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could begin to look likean original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 ==================Angling, collecting & rod making books at:http://www.vfish.net/files/acebooks7.PDF================== -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Fraud rods But how about restored rods by the original makers? I have a couple ofHeddons that were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was re wrap them,fix lettering redo the reelseats and revarnish. He and his wife were bothresponsible for the work on these rods when they were new. Are thesefraudrods now? Is a Garrison or Gillum or Zimny etc rod fraudulent because theymay have been redone by the original makers and should they mark them asrestored? Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... = email... Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it was restored by = other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority of HL Leonard rods were = workers employed by the H.L. Leonard Rod Co. over the last 100 years, = about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... he restores a = that company... does that qualify as a factory =restoration? point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to be = much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. Payne Rod Co. last = If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't the value of the rod be = about 30 years from now and the provenance is lost, when there is no way = document the history of the rod. sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling you that my = is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion then = can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up for sale and it's priced at = dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blow and you feel it is overpriced = be) then you feel the value is lower and might be willing to only spend = dollars and pass on the rod. That is how the free market works... = their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for = Mint restored rod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... = in 50 years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could = Emptor! Regards,Darrell LeeAnglers 452- Grhghlndr@aol.comSent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was re wrap them, fix = may have been redone by the original makers and should they mark them = restored?Brethttp://bretsovens.bravepages.c=om/ from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Feb 1 14:50:14 2002 g11KoDW22550 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:50:13 -0600 g11KoA811773 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:50:10 -0600 Subject: Re: small scraper plane Used to use glass when I was refinishing rods back in the 40's. Find razorbladesmore to my liking now.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Reed Curry wrote: Mark,The cheapest solution, and no sharpening required, is window glass. Aglass cutter, a straightedge and some glass gives you plenty ofdisposable scrapers. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Mark Babiy wrote: Ken, I got one from Woodcraft. I would agree with Bill. It is not that greator accurate, but I do use it to take glue off a rod. The throat is alittle too small and gets easily jammed up with shavings. Its not a badtool, but I think that I would rather put the $30 towards the Lie Neisonscraper plane. I have used all kinds of things to scrape and lately havebeen using a razor blades with success. Lee Valley also sells these tinylittle scrapper blades that work well. Mark . -- from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 15:04:55 2002 g11L4sW23823 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:04:54 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Darrell, If you buy thirty rods a month, you have probably purchased at leastone with a replacement part that the seller did not disclose as a replacement; e.g., a new mid or tip. If the work was artfully done, you may not detect the fraud (you were defrauded) and may, in fact, sell the piece to someone else as all original, unrestored. This is propogating an act of fraud (selling under false pretenses, even if acting in ignorance, you are not, as you said, "disclosing the work done") that could have been avoided if all restorers marked replacement pieces. Just my opinion.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: The rod is not a fraud, it's how it's represented... i.e. if the sellerinforms the buyer that the tip was scarfed, the rod restored, etc... then itis not fraud if all work or defects were truthfully disclosed. If all thework was disclosed, the buyer can make an informed decision and then buy,not buy or reject the restored rod... It's when a seller does not disclose the defects or work done that fraudoccurs... Soooo... what you have is a fraud seller, not a fraud rod... Youcannot convict a BFR of fraud, just the seller. Intentionalmisrepresentation is fraud... I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I see it. Hey it's just like real estate or buying anything of value, let the buyerbeware... This is why some buyers prefer buying thru dealers in that whenthey receive the rod in the mail, they usually have a time period to returnthe rod if it does not meet with their expectations. Generally when you buy on auctions or ebay, there is no right to returnpolicy. This is why rods on ebay usually sell for a lot less 25-50% lessthan thru dealers. I've bought many rods on ebay that I thought was agreatbuy and it turned out to be junk... Undisclosed broken tips, delaminatedsections, a HL Leonard that was really an H-I with HL Leonard written ontherod... As careful as I am, I still get taken occasionally and that has tobe factored in. It is easily worth 25-30% more to deal with a dealer that offers a returnpolicy when you are only buying 1-3 rods per year. I usually buy 20-30 rodsper month so if I get stung once in awhile, then it's not that big a deal.But if someone has their heart set on a rod and gets gypped, then he willbevery upset... Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from rextutor@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 15:11:05 2002 g11LB4W24420 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:11:04 -0600 01 Feb 2002 13:11:04 PST Subject: Re: Block plane tuning sites Try Todds tip site http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/index.html This is an article of preparing and grooving planeshttp://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Tips/Plane_Prep/Plane_Prep_-_Grooving/plane_prep_-_grooving.html --- Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, Once again I ask your help. I'm looking for aweb article on fine tuning block planes so thatthey work best. The link from Rodmakers to FineWoodworking doesn't seem to come up with what I'mlooking for, but I remember that as a helpfularticle. I'd like to send this to a friend, so any helpyou can give will help more than me. Thanks,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from Mark.Babiy@stel.tdsb.on.ca Fri Feb 1 15:11:55 2002 g11LBsW24592 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:11:54 -0600 Subject: Re: small scraper plane Reed, Have tried the glass method. However, mention glass and I think hospital,just past experiences. Safety razor blades seem to work for me. Mark Babiy from Grayson.Davis@valpo.edu Fri Feb 1 15:14:20 2002 g11LEJW25011 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:14:19 -0600 g11LEIV01245 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:14:18 -0600 M2002020109543718787 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:54:37 -0600 Subject: Re: cutting rings I tried cutting NS tubing on my lathe and all it did was to squish (mytechnical term) the tubing walls with the jaws of the vise. I am sure itcan be done, but I decided to go with solid bar instead. Rob I am NO EXPERT, but I have had some success with the following. You can use a wooden mandrel or an expanding steel mandrel wrapped with tape while cutting off in the lathe. Cut off tools with appropriate side clearance built in are available. Holding a hacksaw against a spinning tube mounted on a mandrel is probably not an approved practice, so I would like to hear the opinions of real machinists before I do that again. -Grayson -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 15:20:45 2002 g11LKiW25571 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:20:44 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Darrell, I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However, when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. The answer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original. A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longera Leonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old, since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, it is not a valid Leonard. You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, thatis of interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much a Payne as one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatum emptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it was restored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority of HL Leonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that were not made by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L. Leonard Rod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... herestores a rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to be just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. Payne Rod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't the value of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and the provenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling you that my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up for sale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blow and you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by the original Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel the value is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and pass on the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restored rod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50 years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could begin to look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from tedknott@cogeco.ca Fri Feb 1 15:35:44 2002 g11LZiW26457 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:35:44 -0600 Subject: Re: cutting rings I use a split bushing to grip the tubing OD. Bore a hole the same diameteras the tubing OD in a piece of round bar. Slit one side with a hack saw.This will clamp the tubing all around its perimeter rather than just at thethree jaw points. from rodwrapp@swbell.net Fri Feb 1 15:55:28 2002 g11LtRW27915 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:55:28 -0600 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Re: cutting rings Why not use a tubeing cutter?? Thanks Dave----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: cutting rings I tried cutting NS tubing on my lathe and all it did was to squish (mytechnical term) the tubing walls with the jaws of the vise. I am sure it can be done, but I decided to go with solid bar instead. Rob I am NO EXPERT, but I have had some success with thefollowing. You can use a wooden mandrel or an expandingsteel mandrel wrapped with tape while cutting off in thelathe. Cut off tools with appropriate side clearance builtin are available. Holding a hacksaw against a spinningtube mounted on a mandrel is probably not an approvedpractice, so I would like to hear the opinions of realmachinists before I do that again. -Grayson -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Fri Feb 1 16:33:23 2002 g11MXMW29604 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:33:22 -0600 g11MXLXD024365 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:33:21 -0500 Subject: Re: not a dealer? then delete! g11MXNW29607 Just in case no one else noticed..... He's Baaaaacccckkkkk........ ;^? Mark At 02:23 PM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote: Hi,I have my beveller fine tuned and capable of machining cane to to finished size faster than a Chinese sweat shop. The dimensional and angular accuracy is far superior to hand planed strips and the saving in wear and tear on the body is immeasurable.I have a lathe converted to cnc for ferrules a range of tooling and presses for reel seat harware and several hundred pounds of NS strip.I will be engineering rods full time in the classic tradition and a lot of them!If there are any professional dealers out there that can shift cane rods then give me a call. I might also be interested in outsourcing finishing.Terry Acklanduse hexagon@odyssee.net -- __________________________________________________________________Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ from piscator@macatawa.org Fri Feb 1 16:44:44 2002 g11MihW00202 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:44:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Reed, Do you consider silicone implants to still be b**bs or not? Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Darrell,I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However,when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. Theanswer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original.A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longer aLeonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old,since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, itis not a valid Leonard.You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, that isof interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much a Payneas one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatumemptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed...see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it wasrestored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority ofHLLeonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that werenotmade by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L.LeonardRod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... herestoresa rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue tobe just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. PayneRod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't thevalue of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and theprovenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling youthat my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with myopinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up forsale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blowand you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by theoriginal Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel thevalue is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and passon the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has their ownperception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restoredrod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could beginto look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from bob@downandacross.com Fri Feb 1 16:52:08 2002 g11Mq7W00706 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:52:07 -0600 ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:45:54 -0500 Subject: Ian Martin Do any of you gentlemen who know Ian have any clue as to if he is stilonline? I have tried to reach him many times over the last two months withno luck.Thanks, Bob from kenealyj@gwi.net Fri Feb 1 16:55:19 2002 g11MtIW01047 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:55:18 -0600 Subject: Re: not a dealer? then delete! SSSSSSShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! Maybe he'll go away----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: not a dealer? then delete! Just in case no one else noticed..... He's Baaaaacccckkkkk........ ;^? Mark At 02:23 PM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote: Hi,I have my beveller fine tuned and capable of machining cane to to finished size faster than a Chinese sweat shop. The dimensional and angularaccuracy is far superior to hand planed strips and the saving in wear and tear on the body is immeasurable.I have a lathe converted to cnc for ferrules a range of tooling andpresses for reel seat harware and several hundred pounds of NS strip.I will be engineering rods full time in the classic tradition and a lot of them!If there are any professional dealers out there that can shift cane rodsthen give me a call. I might also be interested in outsourcing finishing.Terry Acklanduse hexagon@odyssee.net -- __________________________________________________________________Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today athttp://webmail.netscape.com/ from homes-sold@attbi.com Fri Feb 1 17:21:50 2002 g11NLoW02267 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:21:50 -0600 Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:21:39 +0000 Subject: Re: small scraper plane Ken, I use a Lie-Nielsen 212 scraper plane that works extremely well. I also usethe Stanley replacement blades for utility knives at times for scraperswhich work well and are a lot less expensive.Good luck, Don----- Original Message --- -- Subject: small scraper plane I have been reading Jack Howell's 'The Lovely Reed' , in this section ontools he has aphoto of his favorite plane, a small bodied scraper by ConoverWoodcraft. Does anyone know where I can get one? The construction lookssimple, I might try to make one if I knew the blade angle and beveldimensions. Thanks, Ken from rkrees@mcn.net Fri Feb 1 17:28:33 2002 g11NSWW02687 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:28:32 -0600 helo=rkrees.mcn.net) id 16Wn6a-0005e9-00; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:28:29 -0800 "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Yes that is the Man!Ron from caneman@clnk.com Fri Feb 1 17:47:26 2002 g11NlQW03526 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:47:26 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard My oldest son is way ahead of you... tried to get me to go naked flyfishingin the Arctic during Polar Bear breeding season... He did want me to make up100 rods or so before I went! *S* Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Peter, I think he was talking about Bob Nunley. He's pretty close to severinga body part anyway, right? Peter Van Schaack wrote: A new Leonard will run you $2750.00 -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:26 PM Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Darrell said"Or maybe sever an ear or other body part.." Bob How much did you say your rods were?. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction from ChristopherO@epicimaging.com Fri Feb 1 18:08:39 2002 be forged)) g1208cW04502 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:08:38 -0600 id ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:05:05 -0800 Subject: SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE CleanCleanDocumentEmail MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle- rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso- style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para- margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow- orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} SET RODMAKERS MAIL =POSTPONE from iank@ts.co.nz Fri Feb 1 18:11:32 2002 g120BUW04788 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:11:31 -0600 by sage.ts.co.nz (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g120H8b03893 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu.KAV; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:17:08+1300 Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:17:07 +1300 Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Tony, I use the "cheat" method from the " best of planning form" when splittinginto thirds. This involves getting an old nail punch and filing the end intoa wedge shape. The width of the culm at each node is measured and markedinto thirds. The nail punch is used to punch a split in the strip at each ofthe nodes on the one third mark. It is then very easy to split the stripbetween these nodes using a knife in the vice method or a screwdriver. Inmany cases the split in the nodes will actually join up and any wondering islimited to a short distance. Ian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Splitting Bamboo Thought this might help someone that has notfigured out how to split in thirds.I was splitting a culm yesterday and found to getthe most out of the culm I really needed to splitin thirds. After splitting half, half and half,the strips would be too wide if I split in halfand too narrow if I split those in half again.That means splitting in thirds. In splittingthirds, the narrow strip will have a tendency towalk to the outside giving you a splinter spearabout halfway through the split.A way to counter this is real simple. Start the1/3 rd split and work the fro or knife through thesplit for about a foot or so. Where the splitstarts, put the edge of "fat" end against a post,workbench or something solid. Grab the bambooabout half way down the length and hold it againstyour waist,Now put the pressure you need against the bamboobending the "fat" side away from you. The splitwill stay straight. If it does want to go to theoutside of the narrow strip, put some morepressure on the "fat" end and the split will moveto the "fat" side. Decrease pressure if it travelstoo much to the "fat" sideStarted doing this after I wasted a lot of thefirst culm I split.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 18:16:13 2002 g120GCW05104 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:16:12 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: February Contest I decided to run another contest with a nice present from Rush River Rods.-- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ > from jojo@ipa.netFri Feb 1 18:29:39 2002 Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net 16Wo3l-0002sg-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Fri, 01 Feb 200219:29:38 -0500 Message-ID:From: "Jojo DeLancier" References: Subject: Re: Restored rods Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Hmmm, I consider them to beexpensive store-bought, plastic imitations -- sort of like graphite rods. M-D Reed, Do you consider silicone implants to still be b**bs or not? Brian From: "Reed Curry" Darrell,I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However,when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. Theanswer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original.A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longer aLeonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old,since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, itis not a valid Leonard.You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, that is of interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much aPayneas one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatumemptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it wasrestored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority of HL Leonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that were not made by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L. Leonard Rod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... he restores a rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to be just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F.PayneRod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't thevalue of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and theprovenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling youthat my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up forsale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blowand you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by theoriginal Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel thevalue is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and passon the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restoredrod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50 years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could begin to look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Feb 1 18:34:37 2002 g120YaW06019 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:34:36 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4183. .Clear:0. Processed in 1.024655 secs); 02 Feb 2002 00:34:35 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods The same could be said when selling a car , house or anything for that matter. If a buyer looks at your used car and does not ask if it was ever hit and you do not tell him the rear quarter panel is 50% bondo you have defrauded him. If a buyer for your house looks at your house and you do not tell him the septic system sometimes makes an appearance above ground or the water heater is on it's last leg you have defrauded him. I believe everyone on this list has at some time been guilty of the sin of omission.. Marty Reed Curry wrote: Darrell,If you buy thirty rods a month, you have probably purchased at least one with a replacement part that the seller did not disclose as a replacement; e.g., a new mid or tip. If the work was artfully done, you may not detect the fraud (you were defrauded) and may, in fact, sell the piece to someone else as all original, unrestored. This is propogating an act of fraud (selling under false pretenses, even if acting in ignorance, you are not, as you said, "disclosing the work done") that could have been avoided if all restorers marked replacement pieces.Just my opinion.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: The rod is not a fraud, it's how it's represented... i.e. if the sellerinforms the buyer that the tip was scarfed, the rod restored, etc... then itis not fraud if all work or defects were truthfully disclosed. If all thework was disclosed, the buyer can make an informed decision and then buy,not buy or reject the restored rod... It's when a seller does not disclose the defects or work done that fraudoccurs... Soooo... what you have is a fraud seller, not a fraud rod... Youcannot convict a BFR of fraud, just the seller. Intentionalmisrepresentation is fraud... I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I see it. Hey it's just like real estate or buying anything of value, let the buyerbeware... This is why some buyers prefer buying thru dealers in that whenthey receive the rod in the mail, they usually have a time period to returnthe rod if it does not meet with their expectations. Generally when you buy on auctions or ebay, there is no right to returnpolicy. This is why rods on ebay usually sell for a lot less 25-50% lessthan thru dealers. I've bought many rods on ebay that I thought was a greatbuy and it turned out to be junk... Undisclosed broken tips, delaminatedsections, a HL Leonard that was really an H-I with HL Leonard written on therod... As careful as I am, I still get taken occasionally and that has tobe factored in. It is easily worth 25-30% more to deal with a dealer that offers a returnpolicy when you are only buying 1-3 rods per year. I usually buy 20-30 rodsper month so if I get stung once in awhile, then it's not that big a deal.But if someone has their heart set on a rod and gets gypped, then he will bevery upset... Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from fquinchat@locl.net Fri Feb 1 18:50:06 2002 g120o5W06542 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:50:05 -0600 Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Feb 1 18:53:02 2002 g120r1W06816 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:53:01 -0600 g120qw800408 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:52:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Ian,We do what works best for us. I have tried a couple of other ways and findusing" bend the fat side" is the easiest and fastest way for me. I am sure thereareother ways others are doing it. Thanks for posting your way.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Ian Kearney wrote: Tony, I use the "cheat" method from the " best of planning form" when splittinginto thirds. This involves getting an old nail punch and filing the end intoa wedge shape. The width of the culm at each node is measured andmarkedinto thirds. The nail punch is used to punch a split in the strip at each ofthe nodes on the one third mark. It is then very easy to split the stripbetween these nodes using a knife in the vice method or a screwdriver. Inmany cases the split in the nodes will actually join up and any wondering islimited to a short distance. Ian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Spezio" Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 6:42 AMSubject: Splitting Bamboo Thought this might help someone that has notfigured out how to split in thirds.I was splitting a culm yesterday and found to getthe most out of the culm I really needed to splitin thirds. After splitting half, half and half,the strips would be too wide if I split in halfand too narrow if I split those in half again.That means splitting in thirds. In splittingthirds, the narrow strip will have a tendency towalk to the outside giving you a splinter spearabout halfway through the split.A way to counter this is real simple. Start the1/3 rd split and work the fro or knife through thesplit for about a foot or so. Where the splitstarts, put the edge of "fat" end against a post,workbench or something solid. Grab the bambooabout half way down the length and hold it againstyour waist,Now put the pressure you need against the bamboobending the "fat" side away from you. The splitwill stay straight. If it does want to go to theoutside of the narrow strip, put some morepressure on the "fat" end and the split will moveto the "fat" side. Decrease pressure if it travelstoo much to the "fat" sideStarted doing this after I wasted a lot of thefirst culm I split.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Feb 1 19:16:55 2002 g121GsW07600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:16:55 -0600 (authenticated) Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:18:22 -0800 Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Ian, Tony ... I just start both splits at the same time, and work one side then the otherall the way down, using the Nunley-McKean method. Almost never lose astrip.Split three culms today, and though I'm getting blood all over the keyboardfromcuts and scrapes, I didn't lose a strip. Whether or not I'm going to lose myright middle finger is still debatable (just kidding) [:-)] Harry Ian Kearney wrote: Tony, I use the "cheat" method from the " best of planning form" when splittinginto thirds.-- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from caneman@clnk.com Fri Feb 1 19:18:42 2002 g121IfW07810 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:18:42 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Winston flick Dennis,Mills generally leave little feathery slivers on the edge of strips. Heis rolling the strips together to break off the feathers. Troy Miller sawme doing this when he was here... doesn't hurt the strips and will get ridof the slivers on the edges very quickly. I think Troy thought I mightbreak the strips, but did this to tip strips that were 0.036 each and theycame out fine As for the sharp edges, they don't cut your hands, or at leastnot mine! After a few hundred rods, your hands are pretty much scar tissueanyways... most cuts on my palms don't even bleed anymore. Some say it isbecause my hands have become toughened from never wearing gloves...some sayit's because I have no heart, therefore nothing to pump the blood out(usually a woman mentions this possibility)... other's say I died in one ofmy shop or fishing accidents years ago and just don't realize it, and we allknow, dead men don't bleed. Take your choice! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from caneman@clnk.com Fri Feb 1 19:21:28 2002 g121LRW08067 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:21:28 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo I just start the both splits in the top of the strip and alternating fromone side to the other, work them down by hand... seems to work just fine.Doing it this way for ME it seems much easier to bend the cane with the handsplitting method to control the width of your splits, if you have all threestrips coming apart at once. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Ian,We do what works best for us. I have tried a couple of other ways and find using " bend the fat side" is the easiest and fastest way for me. I am sure there are other ways others are doing it. Thanks for posting your way.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Ian Kearney wrote: Tony, I use the "cheat" method from the " best of planning form" when splitting into thirds. This involves getting an old nail punch and filing the end into a wedge shape. The width of the culm at each node is measured andmarkedinto thirds. The nail punch is used to punch a split in the strip at each of the nodes on the one third mark. It is then very easy to split the stripbetween these nodes using a knife in the vice method or a screwdriver. In many cases the split in the nodes will actually join up and any wondering is limited to a short distance. Ian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Spezio" Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 6:42 AMSubject: Splitting Bamboo Thought this might help someone that has notfigured out how to split in thirds.I was splitting a culm yesterday and found to getthe most out of the culm I really needed to splitin thirds. After splitting half, half and half,the strips would be too wide if I split in halfand too narrow if I split those in half again.That means splitting in thirds. In splittingthirds, the narrow strip will have a tendency towalk to the outside giving you a splinter spearabout halfway through the split.A way to counter this is real simple. Start the1/3 rd split and work the fro or knife through thesplit for about a foot or so. Where the splitstarts, put the edge of "fat" end against a post,workbench or something solid. Grab the bambooabout half way down the length and hold it againstyour waist,Now put the pressure you need against the bamboobending the "fat" side away from you. The splitwill stay straight. If it does want to go to theoutside of the narrow strip, put some morepressure on the "fat" end and the split will moveto the "fat" side. Decrease pressure if it travelstoo much to the "fat" sideStarted doing this after I wasted a lot of thefirst culm I split.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from harms1@pa.net Fri Feb 1 19:32:24 2002 g121WNW08600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:32:23 -0600 Subject: Re: small scraper plane Reed, et. al., I have had my best luck removing the enamel using a hand-held2 1/2" x 4" cabinet scraper. Just mount the scraper in your vise and filethe edge with a mill bastard file (held at something less than 90 degrees).Curl the "high" edge with a burnisher in the usual manner. I remove the enamel at a point in the final planing when I still have about.015" to go. I prefer this method to using the Lie Nelson scraper becausethe depth of the cut remains uniform throughout the length of the strip. Ican watch the curl coming off as it happens, instead of having to inspectwhat I have done AFTER the scraper has already done its work. The thickness of the shaving, at any particular point, depends only uponuniform hand pressure, and is not regulated by the long sole of the scraperbody (which catches "highs" while riding over "lows"). Just my twocents--again... . cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: small scraper plane Reed, Have tried the glass method. However, mention glass and I think hospital,just past experiences. Safety razor blades seem to work for me. Mark Babiy from bob@downandacross.com Fri Feb 1 19:42:29 2002 g121gSW09026 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:42:28 -0600 Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the feathery edgeof the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at theseand mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say ask me!).Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Feb 1 19:48:18 2002 g121mHW09346 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:48:17 -0600 g121mF810586 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:48:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Bob,Sounds easy. As many times as you have done demos on this I have still tosee itdone.I might like that way better. Maybe you can show me it at the Sowbug.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Bob Nunley wrote: I just start the both splits in the top of the strip and alternating fromone side to the other, work them down by hand... seems to work just fine.Doing it this way for ME it seems much easier to bend the cane with thehandsplitting method to control the width of your splits, if you have all threestrips coming apart at once. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message -----From: "Tony Spezio" Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:49 PMSubject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Ian,We do what works best for us. I have tried a couple of other ways andfind using " bend the fat side" is the easiest and fastest way for me. I am sure there are other ways others are doing it. Thanks for posting your way.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Ian Kearney wrote: Tony, I use the "cheat" method from the " best of planning form" when splitting into thirds. This involves getting an old nail punch and filing the end into a wedge shape. The width of the culm at each node is measured andmarkedinto thirds. The nail punch is used to punch a split in the strip at each of the nodes on the one third mark. It is then very easy to split the stripbetween these nodes using a knife in the vice method or a screwdriver. In many cases the split in the nodes will actually join up and any wondering is limited to a short distance. Ian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Spezio" Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 6:42 AMSubject: Splitting Bamboo Thought this might help someone that has notfigured out how to split in thirds.I was splitting a culm yesterday and found to getthe most out of the culm I really needed to splitin thirds. After splitting half, half and half,the strips would be too wide if I split in halfand too narrow if I split those in half again.That means splitting in thirds. In splittingthirds, the narrow strip will have a tendency towalk to the outside giving you a splinter spearabout halfway through the split.A way to counter this is real simple. Start the1/3 rd split and work the fro or knife through thesplit for about a foot or so. Where the splitstarts, put the edge of "fat" end against a post,workbench or something solid. Grab the bambooabout half way down the length and hold it againstyour waist,Now put the pressure you need against the bamboobending the "fat" side away from you. The splitwill stay straight. If it does want to go to theoutside of the narrow strip, put some morepressure on the "fat" end and the split will moveto the "fat" side. Decrease pressure if it travelstoo much to the "fat" sideStarted doing this after I wasted a lot of thefirst culm I split.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from TBOWDEN@halcyon.com Fri Feb 1 22:01:30 2002 g1241TW11647 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:01:29 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:01:24 -0800 Subject: Re: Different kind of line I really like the clear lines for fishing the beaches in Puget Sound. The water is very clear much of the time and the cutthroat & salmon are spooky. When I switched to the clear lines I started hooking more fish. I use a Cortland Clear Intermediate. It snarls up in the shooting basket if you don't stretch it before fishing, but it shoots through the guides easily. Tom At 07:43 AM 1/31/2002 -0800, Adam Vigil wrote: One of the lines I use and like very much is a Monic Phantom Line. It has a 10' FLOATING clear tip. The rest of the line is a mono core and super slick normal line and has no memory. It shoots like a laser. The clear tip is great when casting over spooking trout because it cast no shadow over the water. With a 12' leader you have 22' of clear line on the water. They are the only one that has floating clear line..they have a patent on it. AirFlow wishes they had it. Adam from bob@downandacross.com Fri Feb 1 22:40:01 2002 g124e0W12337 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:40:00 -0600 1 Feb 2002 23:30:35 -0500 Subject: Nice article on Tim Zietak http://www.post- gazette.com/sports/outdoors/20011223fishing1223xp7.asp from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Feb 1 23:03:04 2002 g12533W12903 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:03:04 -0600 ([209.179.148.170] helo=computer) id 16WsKL-0004mb-00; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:03:01 -0800 Subject: Re: Tube which end up? Understood, But I also see UPS men kicking boxes off of the trucks. And I had sent torods to a customer on the same day one arrived on time the other wasseveraldays late and actually the rod tube was crushed and the tip broken. I wonteven talk about my mail that makes it all over town except where it belongs.UPS is good but when they leave rods on peoples doorsteps it just makes meshake my head Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tube which end up? In a message dated 1/31/02 8:34:43 PM Central Standard Time,atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: PLease note, this is not an angry reply! Having worked for the USPS as well as UPS (2 years with the former, 10 with the latter) I can tell you from experience that while some stuff like youmentioned might happen (and I can tell you stories about that!) 99% of thetime, the folks at both are just too damned busy to attempt to do damage or "fool around" much. If you want to see people working fast and furiously,pop in at a UPS center some morning about 3 or 4 while they are doing thepresort and loading the trucks. I know that at one point, I was loading 6different vehicles, in stop for stop order and attempting to keep track ofhow many deliveries the driver makes. You can only be off by about 5 or 6 on each truck.Damage from stuff getting pushed off the belts? yeah! being dropped in the rush to process packages and possibly stepped on? No doubt! I was alwaysappreceative of the people who went to the trouble to pack their stuff well so we didn't have to worry about damage! We had a couple of people in ourcenter who did nothing BUT open suspected damage items and make suretheywere all right, then repack them. One crazy story. One night in the Air Hub in Louisville (This was about 20 years ago and I did not work there!) A package came through that was leaking fluid. (aside here! you would be surprised at what people send!) Leakers are ALWAYS checked, many are glass bottles and have fairly toxic stuff in them. This was about 1 or 2 AM of course, and The girl who opened the box to check the contents for damage shreeked and bolted from the building. The box had smiled at her! The contents were ....6 human heads! The leakage was thepreservative fluid that they had been packaged in. And YES it was alegitimate shipper and receiver. Two medical research labs. I don't know if UPS still allows this, or even if it was "allowed" then. I think they were labled "Medical specimins" or some such. but you get used to stuff likethat. I know I handled packages of frozen Bull semen and other wierd things I know the horror stories about packages, and sympathise. But I ALWAYS ship UPS if possible and have never had damage from them. At least notpersonally! I wish from a monitary point that I had stayed with them, but I went haring off to follow a different dream! mark visit Marks Magic Workshophttp://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Feb 2 02:17:58 2002 g128HtW15260 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 02:17:55 -0600 Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods There is a problem with refinishing rods IMHO that could be resolved though it would take a certain amount of intestinal fortitude to car