from live2huntfish@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 00:22:06 2002 g116M5W14470 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:22:05 -0600 (216.241.172.186) Subject: RE: Different kind of line Cortland's 555 series line will also include clear floaters. Due outmid-March last Word from Cortland. Al Rittlive2huntfish@yahoo.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Different kind of line One of the lines I use and like very much is a Monic Phantom Line. It hasa 10' FLOATING clear tip. The rest of the line is a mono core and superslick normal line and has no memory. It shoots like a laser. The clear tipis great when casting over spooking trout because it cast no shadow overthewater. With a 12' leader you have 22' of clear line on the water. They arethe only one that has floating clear line..they have a patent on it. AirFlowwishes they had it. Adam Cortland's 555 series line will also include clear = out mid-March last Word from Cortland. owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Behalf Of Adam VigilSent: Thursday, January 31, 20028:44 = Different = line is a Monic Phantom Line. It has a 10' FLOATING clear tip. The rest of = like a laser. The clear tip is great when casting over spooking trout = it cast no shadow over the water. With a 12' leader you have 22' of = have a patent on it. AirFlow wishes they had it. Adam _________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from ajthramer@hotmail.com Fri Feb 1 02:19:44 2002 g118JiW16684 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 02:19:44 -0600 Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:19:38 -0800 Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:19:38 GMT Subject: Re: Fraud rods FILETIME=[30E88D10:01C1AAF9] Might be a big laugh! For mine at least. Perhaps the China rods? I don't think that many would be able to make the same rod that I do at the same price anyway. Better to go after one of the grossly overpriced rods out there. Minor Rant: I make a lot of classic taper rods, clearly marked with the taper and my own name. Most are of Leonard, Granger and Payne tapers. 2 out of 3 are 'still' in business. Total rod production between them is likely less than 3 or 4 months of my production. Excellent idea if you want to keep the price artificially high. The supply of original rods is drying up and the replacements are not really available to any average angler. The rods are similiar to, but not even close to the same as the original. Different ferrules, reelseats, thread pattern and color. I meant to do that. I don't want there to be any confusion, now or later. Achieving the quality of ANY of the three is no tough bar to reach. Machining identical hardware is not a big deal either. In other words, fakes are a real possibility, the skills needed are widely available from a dozen list members whose work I haveseen let alone those I have not. This is a result of an artificial manipulation of supply. The demand is high due to the numbers who are entering the 'bamboo' phase of the sport. If Payne, Leonard, FE Thomas, or Young were indeed having their footstepsbeing followed there would be rods generally available at a rational price. Any who have seen examples of Young, Leonard at the low points or Thomas rods from the last 5 or 10 years knows that the quality was indifferent at best. The rods I set out to make 17 years ago were in the shadow of the great production houses of Granger, phillipson, Heddon and Leonard. Never wanted it any other way. There was alot of doubt at first as to how good could the rods be for only 700-900, less now. The skill involved in making them is no less than in making a 2500 masterpiece, just different and in keeping with the traditions of our sport.A.J. But what do I know? I am still waiting to see a forgery of a Nunley rod oran AJ Thramer. Adam _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from ajthramer@hotmail.com Fri Feb 1 02:43:44 2002 g118hhW17182 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 02:43:43 -0600 Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:43:37 -0800 Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:43:37 GMT Subject: Articles FILETIME=[8AAA1F50:01C1AAFC] After reading both articles I was stunned at how ignorant they both are. Vacant of either reasonable research or knowlege. A victim of believing the self serving junk they have been fed by others. To be criticized by those lacking the drive and talent needed to either craft a decent rod or a decent article..... I am used to seeing this lack of proper research and critical thinking ony in PETA and Greenpeace members.A.J. _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Feb 1 03:11:51 2002 g119BmW18013 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 03:11:48 -0600 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Fraud rods Well said!! TY Minor Rant: I make a lot of classic taper rods, clearly marked with the taper and my own name. Most are of Leonard, Granger and Payne tapers. 2 out of 3 are 'still' in business. Total rod production between them is likely less than 3 or 4 months of my production. Excellent idea if you want to keep the price artificially high. The supply of original rods is drying up and the replacements are not really available to any average angler. The rods are similiar to, but not even close to the same as the original. Different ferrules, reelseats, thread pattern and color. I meant to do that. I don't want there to be any confusion, now or later. Achieving the quality of ANY of the three is no tough bar to reach. Machining identical hardware is not a big deal either. In other words, fakes are a real possibility, the skills needed are widely available from a dozen list members whose work I have seen let alone those I have not. This is a result of an artificial manipulation of supply. The demand is high due to the numbers who are entering the 'bamboo' phase of the sport. If Payne, Leonard, FE Thomas, or Young were indeed having their footsteps being followed there would be rods generally available at a rational price. Any who have seen examples of Young, Leonard at the low points or Thomas rods from the last 5 or 10 years knows that the quality was indifferent at best. The rods I set out to make 17 years ago were in the shadow of the great production houses of Granger, phillipson, Heddon and Leonard. Never wanted it any other way. There was alot of doubt at first as to how good could the rods be for only 700-900, less now. The skill involved in making them is no less than in making a 2500 masterpiece, just different and in keeping with the traditions of our sport.A.J. But what do I know? I am still waiting to see a forgery of a Nunley rod oran AJ Thramer. Adam _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Feb 1 03:17:08 2002 g119H5W18313 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 03:17:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Articles This is the trouble though and why it's not as hard as people may think to convince the great unwashed of anything advertising and dealers (this is meant as anybody other than the maker with a vested interest) want to tell people. You'd reckon these writers would know better wouldn't you?Now, imagine people believing this, standing in a shop or reading a catalogue comparing a truly decent rod at $1K with a Chinese one at $350 and the sales man armed with these articles convincing the punter there isn't as much to these over priced rods as everybody's been told all these years.All sounds pretty familiar to me. Tony At 08:43 AM 2/1/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: After reading both articles I was stunned at how ignorant they both are. Vacant of either reasonable research or knowlege. A victim of believing the self serving junk they have been fed by others. To be criticized by those lacking the drive and talent needed to either craft a decent rod or a decent article..... I am used to seeing this lack of proper research and critical thinking ony in PETA and Greenpeace members.A.J. _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from Lazybee45@aol.com Fri Feb 1 04:17:41 2002 g11AHeW19398 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 04:17:40 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:17:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Thank you Tony Spezio I got a nice little surprise from tony as well! Very kind and considerate. Also fun to read! nice to get a recipe that is not just dry recital of the basic pattern! Tony, you are inventive and creative! Keep it up! mark visit Marks Magic Workshop http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html from Lazybee45@aol.com Fri Feb 1 04:44:18 2002 g11AiIW19790 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 04:44:18 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:43:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Tube which end up? In a message dated 1/31/02 8:34:43 PM Central Standard Time, atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: PLease note, this is not an angry reply! Having worked for the USPS as well as UPS (2 years with the former, 10with the latter) I can tell you from experience that while some stuff like you mentioned might happen (and I can tell you stories about that!) 99% of the time, the folks at both are just too damned busy to attempt to do damage or "fool around" much. If you want to see people working fast and furiously, pop in at a UPS center some morning about 3 or 4 while they are doing the presort and loading the trucks. I know that at one point, I was loading 6 different vehicles, in stop for stop order and attempting to keep track of how many deliveries the driver makes. You can only be off by about 5 or 6 on each truck.Damage from stuff getting pushed off the belts? yeah! being dropped in the rush to process packages and possibly stepped on? No doubt! I was always appreceative of the people who went to the trouble to pack their stuff well so we didn't have to worry about damage! We had a couple of people in our center who did nothing BUT open suspected damage items and make surethey were all right, then repack them. One crazy story. One night in the Air Hub in Louisville (This was about 20 years ago and I did not work there!) A package came through that wasleaking fluid. (aside here! you would be surprised at what people send!) Leakers are ALWAYS checked, many are glass bottles and have fairly toxic stuff in them. This was about 1 or 2 AM of course, and The girl who opened the box tocheck the contents for damage shreeked and bolted from the building. The box had smiled at her! The contents were ....6 human heads! The leakage was the preservative fluid that they had been packaged in. And YES it was a legitimate shipper and receiver. Two medical research labs. I don't know if UPS still allows this, or even if it was "allowed" then. I think they were labled "Medical specimins" or some such. but you get used to stuff like that. I know I handled packages of frozen Bull semen and other wierd things I know the horror stories about packages, and sympathise. But I ALWAYS ship UPS if possible and have never had damage from them. At least not personally! I wish from a monitary point that I had stayed with them, but I went haring off to follow a different dream! mark visit Marks Magic Workshop http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Feb 1 04:45:31 2002 g11AjVW19948 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 04:45:31 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4184. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.531398 secs); 01 Feb 2002 10:45:28 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Fraud rods --------------040901010402070603050305 I really don't know. If a person has a Leonard with a short tip and had a complete restoration (including a new tip made)done by lets say Bob Taylor . Do we consider that rod original? I don't know. Marty Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: But how about restored rods by the original makers? I have a couple of Heddons that were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was re wrap them, fix lettering redo the reelseats and revarnish. He and his wife were both responsible for the work on these rods when they were new. Are these fraud rods now? Is a Garrison or Gillum or Zimny etc rod fraudulent because they may have been redone by the original makers and should they mark them as restored? Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ --------------040901010402070603050305 complete restoration (including a new tip made)done by lets say Bob Taylor. Do we consider that rod original? I don't know. Marty Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: of Heddonsthat were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was re wrap them, fix responsible Is a Garrison or Gillum or Zimny etc rod fraudulent because they may havebeen redone by the original makers and should they mark them asrestored? Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ --------------040901010402070603050305-- from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Feb 1 04:48:32 2002 g11AmVW20173 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 04:48:31 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4183. .Clear:0. Processed in 1.232432 secs); 01 Feb 2002 10:47:46 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Fraud rods That is what I'd call it! Marty Reed Curry wrote: Marty,While many experienced collectors can detect a restored rod, sometimes the work is done so artfully that the restoration is not apparent. In this case the prospective purchaser may believe that all the parts are original. Sometimes this is the intent of the seller/repairer...this is called fraud, is it not?Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Marty D. wrote: Every rod that is in restored condition should be considered as having replacement parts. I always felt that this is why restored rods have considerably less value than original ones. I know I have made more than a few tips for classics over the years. Marty from Lazybee45@aol.com Fri Feb 1 05:03:10 2002 g11B3AW20548 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:03:10 -0600 Subject: Re: China mfg inc. was the old masters @ FAOL In a message dated 1/31/02 11:02:25 PM Central Standard Time, avyoung@iinet.net.au writes: As a fanatic bicycle rider as well as fly fishing nut, I can attest to this as well. At one time the "BEST" bikes were made in USA or Europe. In many ways they still are. But Japan began to take over the component market. At one time Campagnolo was the premium component maker, then shimanobegan to gain, and truthfully Shimano makes GREAT stuff. But a really goodhandmade bicycle FRAME (only) made in USA or Europe will cost somewhere between$1200 and $3000. a complete Campy set of components, according to the latest catalog I have is around $1700 or so on top of that. Then you add stuff like the seat (I like the english made Brooks saddles, top quality and not terribly expensive) and front fork and on and on. Most of us peons discovered that bicycles are really great, but spending upwards of $1000 for one is not in the cards. at least not in MY cards! And where are the lower cost bikes made? China Viet Nam or Korea with Tiawan making theBest,(read that as $500 +) followed by China, Korean and Viet Nam. Watch, the manufacturers will be looking for lower pay markets yet. Your friendly Schwinn which used to be built in Chicago will soon be produced in Ho Che Min City if it isn't already! This is no exaggeration, Schwinn was just purchased Sears or Toys R us for Pacific bikes! They really arn't "bad" but something about that idea bugs me.mark visit Marks Magic Workshop http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html from kenealyj@gwi.net Fri Feb 1 05:40:44 2002 g11BehW21241 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:40:43 -0600 Subject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL Did people have a "personal backpackmaker?" This is the difference. If you look at the new cane rod market now, peoplearen't as interested in a rod from a company as they are from a singlecraftsman. Why do you think Powell is divesting of all their cane stuff?Cane rod making is a niche market of craftspeople- It is like a cabinetmaker. Yes, there are cabinets made all over, but there will always be room they millionaires? No, but most do well for themselves. If I owned a graphite rod company I would be worried. Some of the rods nowbeing made overseas are of good quality and the price is very low- believeme. I have Manufacturer's reps pushing this stuff on me all the time. Someof these rods are pretty good and they will take over a good chunk of themarket. John K----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL In every market the Chinese have gone after and actually taken forthemselves the current makers always said that.Backpacks were the best example I can think of. A company I worked for used to make as well as get in Lowe when the two brothers were making Lowe inthe US as well as Kelty. People would get these based on good reputationand the desire to have genuinely good gear, the thought China could makegear as good was not even considered, people chortled at the merest thought. Lowe then began making packs in Mexico and Ireland. They may still bemadein Mexico for the US market but for the rest of the world I *think* theIrish packs are now made in China. There may still be some made in Ireland I lost track of Kelty.It took less than 5 years to watch a market made up of customersdemandingthe best Lowe could make to wanting the cheapest "high quality" Chinesepacks to devolve.I've seen this in a few cases I was directly involved with. I took specialnotice of the packs because I was the stock controller and it was meworking out the orders and I hated to see what was happening. Same withboots, same with tents. Who would have thought they'd be trusting theirlives with Chinese tents at 8,000 meters on Everest 15 years back but it'spar for the course now.What seems to happen in every case I saw was the Chinese/Viet Namese/Korean gear was initially sold alongside the regular gear at a much reduced price, the bugs ironed out, finish improved.Next the price rises to a little under regular priced gear and salesmen are encouraged to push it because margins are much, much better.People begin to use the stuff and accept it, the better brands then recedeor get Chinese gear to sell as well under their own labels and the pricesrise again.Ultimately the Chinese gear prices reach what the better gear wasoriginally selling for. The importers and shops make a killing on margin. The thing is though the Chinese packs aren't as good as theUS/Irish/possibly Mexican packs. There are differences that make adifference as it were.The thread used on better packs is nylon. It wont rot so you get a packthat lasts as long as the fabric holds together, the problem if it can beseen as a problem is if the machinist trys to run the machine too fast thenylon thread will melt and break in the needle. The Chinese get around this doesn't last as long. If I'm wrong with rods I'll be very happy but if it doesn't happen it'll be because the people who would do this think the market is too small for this flanking attack. Tony At 03:13 PM 1/31/02 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: I really don't see a worry from Chinese rodmakers. In my short tenure ofmaking rods and in the many years that I have known rodmakers andpeople who like to fish cane rods, I have found that people want to know the person who is making the rod for them. the most imprtant thing is that relationshipwith the maker that allows for a rod to be matched to the buyer. As for undercutting us in price- we don't want that market anyway. My $.02 John K----- Original Message -----From: "Bill Walters" Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:36 PMSubject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL If the Chinese competition ever gets it right we mayall be up that creek you're talking about without avisible means of locomotion. Bill W. --- Harry Boyd wrote: Chris, Don't be too hard on JC. He spoke very highlyof one of my rods, as didDeanna, at the Fly Anglers Online Fish In last fall.In fact (insert big- headhere) it compared very favorably to Ron Kusse's. http://www.globalflyfisher.com/reports/fishin2001/index.php The rod's owneralso had nice things to say. JC has seen and cast literally thousands ofrods, many of them cane. Andhe personally thinks that the Gatti rods are thegreatest thing since slicedbread. I cast a Gatti once. Reminded me of a phonepole. Apparently JC andRon Kusse are close friends. Nothing wrong withthat. I've seen Kusse's rodsand was duly impressed. Ron has done his best tohelp me a coupla times, and Ireally appreciate it. As Hal Manas wrote, I don't find anything reallyoffensive in eitherarticle. I don't agree with them, but am notbothered by what JC and LF say.I do NOT wish for a return to anyone's idea of agolden age of bamboo when onlya double handful of companies were making rods. Ilike selling a few rods tohelp pay for my own, and to afford me the ability togive away a rod now andthen. If top of the line bamboo rods suddenly beganselling for $400, then allof us who sell for 2-5 times that amount might wellbe up a creek. Harry "Christopher A. Obuchowski, MD" wrote: If you guys were bothered by the "what's in a name" article, read "the old masters" column (www.flyanglersonline.com and click on "the old masters"). --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Feb 1 06:23:23 2002 g11CNKW21942 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 06:23:21 -0600 Subject: Re: Tube which end up? Seeing a few heads in a package sounds a lot like some scrums I've been in [:- )] I sent a rod in a tube to a guy once who wanted something else done to the rod after he received it and returned it. When I posted it back I glued the tube closed rather than just taped it. I called to make sure all was well and he told me the post man complained about not knowing what the rod looked like this time!!Obviously this particular postie was taking special interest in his deliveries [:-)] Tony At 05:43 AM 2/1/02 -0500, Lazybee45@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/31/02 8:34:43 PM Central Standard Time,atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: PLease note, this is not an angry reply! Having worked for the USPS as well as UPS (2 years with the former, 10withthe latter) I can tell you from experience that while some stuff like youmentioned might happen (and I can tell you stories about that!) 99% of thetime, the folks at both are just too damned busy to attempt to do damageor"fool around" much. If you want to see people working fast and furiously,pop in at a UPS center some morning about 3 or 4 while they are doing thepresort and loading the trucks. I know that at one point, I was loading 6different vehicles, in stop for stop order and attempting to keep track ofhow many deliveries the driver makes. You can only be off by about 5 or 6oneach truck.Damage from stuff getting pushed off the belts? yeah! being dropped intherush to process packages and possibly stepped on? No doubt! I was alwaysappreceative of the people who went to the trouble to pack their stuff wellso we didn't have to worry about damage! We had a couple of people in ourcenter who did nothing BUT open suspected damage items and make suretheywere all right, then repack them. One crazy story. One night in the Air Hub in Louisville (This was about 20years ago and I did not work there!) A package came through that wasleakingfluid. (aside here! you would be surprised at what people send!) Leakers areALWAYS checked, many are glass bottles and have fairly toxic stuff inthem.This was about 1 or 2 AM of course, and The girl who opened the box tocheckthe contents for damage shreeked and bolted from the building. The boxhadsmiled at her! The contents were ....6 human heads! The leakage was thepreservative fluid that they had been packaged in. And YES it was alegitimate shipper and receiver. Two medical research labs. I don't know ifUPS still allows this, or even if it was "allowed" then. I think they werelabled "Medical specimins" or some such. but you get used to stuff likethat. I know I handled packages of frozen Bull semen and other wierd things I know the horror stories about packages, and sympathise. But I ALWAYSship UPS if possible and have never had damage from them. At least notpersonally! I wish from a monitary point that I had stayed with them, but Iwent haring off to follow a different dream! mark visit Marks Magic Workshophttp://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Feb 1 06:23:50 2002 g11CNoW22006 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 06:23:50 -0600 Subject: Re: Leonard history bob@downandacross.com, rcurry@ttlc.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu That's right I couldn't remember his last name. He was living in the So. Bend area for a while and selling and building rods under the Leonard name if my memory serves me right. Last I knew he was working at an aluminumtubing distributor.Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ That's right I couldn't and selling and building rods under the Leonard name if my memory serves distributor.Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Feb 1 07:16:00 2002 g11DFqW22984 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:15:52 -0600 Subject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL That's like asking if somebody only ever drinks coffee at the same coffee lounge or bread from the one bakery. Some do, most don't.People do actually have personal backpack makers. High altitude summit packs are often made to measure from sail cloth. Some do, most don't. The issue isn't really what individuals actually want as a whole because most don't know a lot of the time as much as what is offered, I'm not talking individuals here but a market block and I'm assuming the day comes Chinese rods make it to the market, that may not happen and that would be great but if it does it'll be because somebody/s will be making enough or more margin than something else to do it.Once a cheap but reasonable product establishes a niche in the general market place it's pretty easy to market it as at least as good at a better price and for some reason the price seems to be able to rise over time without too much resistance. Most wont care and the shop guys wont know even if they did care. The real shame of it is if this occurred and forced out makers as soon as the market tapered out as it would there would be less makers around more or less like what happened in the 70's. Something to remember too is change is the only constant in marketing and while bamboo rods are still seen as sort of esoteric if large numbers of cheep ones suddenly arrived on the market and they were seen as something everybody needs and the price is right so why not all that can change pretty fast. I mean, who needs 95% of what's in the Bean catalogues and while I'm at it who thinks up 80% of what's in it the stuff presumably sells. If you take a look at Cabelas Chamois shirts you'll see what I mean.6 months back I went to the latest store to open and it was a hell of a place let me tell you if you've never been there.I bought two chamois shirts, one made in the US, and one made in Mexico. I just received another via mail last week and it's made in China.Now, have costs in the US and Mexico risen to the point Cabelas are making the shirts in China to maintain the fit and quality without having to pass on a rise in price OR are they selling a lower costing (to them) item that is really the same with an established niche and making substantially better margin because it's still at the same retail price? It may well be the former I obviously am not privy to the reason.Does anybody really care? I mean say you wanted a chamois shirt and saw Made In China on the label. Are you going to throw back on the rack and walk out?People have personal tailors. Some do, most don't. While we can't prevent a dilution of quality of rods IF we should not consider it unlikely and we should do what we can to make sure people do understand what a bamboo rod is and not what certain people would havethem believe. I know the types of bikes Mark was talking about in another post are light years distant but I remember seeing an advertisement here in the mid 70's.When Aust first started trading with China again there was a delegation of people who went there and my Social Science teacher was one of these. He really liked it there for some reason and had the walls of our room plastered with China stuff including some Tonkin bamboo incidentally. There was a poster for a Chinese brand of bike that had just started to be sold in Australia as a result of the "Open China" policy called Flying Pigeon which I though was such a great typically Asian type model name. It had a pic of Mao vintage happy workers riding side by side off to work with the slogan:"Flying Pigeon Brand, one half billion Chinese can't be wrong".I assume it was an Australian running pig capitalist dog that added the slogan [:-)] Tony At 06:43 AM 2/1/02 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: Did people have a "personal backpackmaker?" This is the difference. If you look at the new cane rod market now, peoplearen't as interested in a rod from a company as they are from a singlecraftsman. Why do you think Powell is divesting of all their cane stuff?Cane rod making is a niche market of craftspeople- It is like a cabinetmaker. Yes, there are cabinets made all over, but there will always be room Arethey millionaires? No, but most do well for themselves. If I owned a graphite rod company I would be worried. Some of the rods nowbeing made overseas are of good quality and the price is very low- believeme. I have Manufacturer's reps pushing this stuff on me all the time. Someof these rods are pretty good and they will take over a good chunk of themarket. John K----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:07 AMSubject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL In every market the Chinese have gone after and actually taken forthemselves the current makers always said that.Backpacks were the best example I can think of. A company I worked for used to make as well as get in Lowe when the two brothers were making Loweinthe US as well as Kelty. People would get these based on good reputationand the desire to have genuinely good gear, the thought China could makegear as good was not even considered, people chortled at the merest thought. Lowe then began making packs in Mexico and Ireland. They may still bemadein Mexico for the US market but for the rest of the world I *think* theIrish packs are now made in China. There may still be some made inIreland I lost track of Kelty.It took less than 5 years to watch a market made up of customersdemandingthe best Lowe could make to wanting the cheapest "high quality" Chinesepacks to devolve.I've seen this in a few cases I was directly involved with. I took specialnotice of the packs because I was the stock controller and it was meworking out the orders and I hated to see what was happening. Same withboots, same with tents. Who would have thought they'd be trusting theirlives with Chinese tents at 8,000 meters on Everest 15 years back butit'spar for the course now.What seems to happen in every case I saw was the Chinese/Viet Namese/Korean gear was initially sold alongside the regular gear at a much reduced price, the bugs ironed out, finish improved.Next the price rises to a little under regular priced gear and salesmen are encouraged to push it because margins are much, much better.People begin to use the stuff and accept it, the better brands thenrecedeor get Chinese gear to sell as well under their own labels and the pricesrise again.Ultimately the Chinese gear prices reach what the better gear wasoriginally selling for. The importers and shops make a killing on margin. The thing is though the Chinese packs aren't as good as theUS/Irish/possibly Mexican packs. There are differences that make adifference as it were.The thread used on better packs is nylon. It wont rot so you get a packthat lasts as long as the fabric holds together, the problem if it can beseen as a problem is if the machinist trys to run the machine too fastthenylon thread will melt and break in the needle. The Chinese get around this doesn't last as long. If I'm wrong with rods I'll be very happy but if it doesn't happen it'll be because the people who would do this think the market is too small for this flanking attack. Tony At 03:13 PM 1/31/02 -0500, John Kenealy wrote: I really don't see a worry from Chinese rodmakers. In my short tenureofmaking rods and in the many years that I have known rodmakers andpeople who like to fish cane rods, I have found that people want to know the person who is making the rod for them. the most imprtant thing is thatrelationshipwith the maker that allows for a rod to be matched to the buyer. As for undercutting us in price- we don't want that market anyway. My $.02 John K----- Original Message -----From: "Bill Walters" Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:36 PMSubject: Re: the old masters @ FAOL If the Chinese competition ever gets it right we mayall be up that creek you're talking about without avisible means of locomotion. Bill W. --- Harry Boyd wrote: Chris, Don't be too hard on JC. He spoke very highlyof one of my rods, as didDeanna, at the Fly Anglers Online Fish In last fall.In fact (insert big- headhere) it compared very favorably to Ron Kusse's. http://www.globalflyfisher.com/reports/fishin2001/index.php The rod's owneralso had nice things to say. JC has seen and cast literally thousands ofrods, many of them cane. Andhe personally thinks that the Gatti rods are thegreatest thing since slicedbread. I cast a Gatti once. Reminded me of a phonepole. Apparently JC andRon Kusse are close friends. Nothing wrong withthat. I've seen Kusse's rodsand was duly impressed. Ron has done his best tohelp me a coupla times, and Ireally appreciate it. As Hal Manas wrote, I don't find anything reallyoffensive in eitherarticle. I don't agree with them, but am notbothered by what JC and LF say.I do NOT wish for a return to anyone's idea of agolden age of bamboo when onlya double handful of companies were making rods. Ilike selling a few rods tohelp pay for my own, and to afford me the ability togive away a rod now andthen. If top of the line bamboo rods suddenly beganselling for $400, then allof us who sell for 2-5 times that amount might wellbe up a creek. Harry "Christopher A. Obuchowski, MD" wrote: If you guys were bothered by the "what's in a name" article, read "the old masters" column (www.flyanglersonline.com and click on "the old masters"). --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html A crash reducesYour expensive computerTo a simple stone. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Feb 1 07:56:19 2002 g11DuJW23769 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:56:19 -0600 (authenticated) for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:57:41 -0800 Subject: Re: Articles Along with reading the articles, you really should consider reading thefollow- ups on their Bulletin Board. Harry Allen Thramer wrote: After reading both articles I was stunned at how ignorant they both are. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 07:56:56 2002 g11DuuW23869 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:56:56 -0600 Feb 2002 05:56:55 PST Subject: Re: Articles that's kinda what i thot. had to run an article aboutsomething, heh? timothy --- Allen Thramer wrote: After reading both articles I was stunned at howignorant they both are. Vacant of either reasonable research or knowlege. Avictim of believing the self serving junk they have been fed by others. Tobe criticized by those lacking the drive and talent needed to either crafta decent rod or a decent article..... I am used to seeing this lack of proper research andcritical thinking ony in PETA and Greenpeace members.A.J. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSNHotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 07:58:31 2002 g11DwUW24186 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:58:31 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Fraud rods Marty, Bob Taylor does not own the Leonard name, so he cannot represent Leonard, despite having worked there. And, unless he owned the Leonard beveler, with the Leonard tip template, he could not accurately reproduce the tip anyway.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Marty D. wrote: I really don't know. If a person has a Leonard with a short tip and had a complete restoration (including a new tip made)done by lets say Bob Taylor . Do we consider that rod original? I don't know. Marty Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: But how about restored rods by the original makers? I have a couple of Heddons that were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was re wrap them, fix lettering redo the reelseats and revarnish. He and his wife were both responsible for the work on these rods when they were new. Are these fraud rods now? Is a Garrison or Gillum or Zimny etc rod fraudulent because they may have been redone by the original makers and should they mark them as restored? Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ -- > from jerryy@webtv.net Fri Feb 1 08:10:09 2002 Received: frommailsorter- 105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (mailsorter-105- storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id ETAsAhRgM5N3SXHtenrCHXg1CugZR2m1aQIUaqkxd9UlXIw9InajDAIQxUhtlp0= Grhghlndr@aol.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Fraud rods message of Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:01:28 -0500 Content-Disposition: Inline jerryy@webtv.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENBelieve the H.L. Leonard name is now owned by Brian J. McGrath. I believe hewas the publisher of Fishing Collectibles Mag. Now the rod building has beenrelocated to Houston, TX. Jerry Young > from ttalsma@macatawa.org Fri Feb g11EBUW24951 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:04:23 -0500 Received: (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) idD56AMBXA; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:04:18 -0500 From: Todd Talsma Message-ID:Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:07:56 - Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Neat old makers' brochures online References:Content-Type: ttalsma@macatawa.org Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Don'twant to put a damper on all of this great sharing going on, but do we need tobe concerned with any copyright issues when we're posting publishedinformation, or is there some "statute of limitations" for published articles?Signed, Legally puzzled in Holland.-- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from baconrod@gsmrinc.com Fri Feb 1 08:21:37 2002 Received: from roc- g11ELaW25562 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:21:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Fraud rods Reed and Others.After the Bankruptsy sale at Leonard The 2 Bevellers went to MarkAraner the second beveller was minus the head which Bob Taylor has. Therewas 3 bevellers built by Brown Engineering for Leonard after the firedestroyed the Ruben Leonard beveller. I owned the third beveller which Isold to REC when I sold the Payne Trade name and equipment. I now own theGeorge Halstead equipment. His beveller was designed after the PayneBeveller but with his modifications. Dan good machine. The Leonard tradename was sold by Larry Foster to Brian McGraph of Houston Tex.back in theearly 90's or late 80's. Back in the 70's I used to repair the bevellers atLeonard. Ask Ted Sin he will tell you about Leonard history of who did what.Ted was on the board of Directors at Leonard up to the last.Best Hal.--- -- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Fraud rods Marty,Bob Taylor does not own the Leonard name, so he cannot representLeonard, despite having worked there. And, unless he owned the Leonardbeveler, with the Leonard tip template, he could not accuratelyreproduce the tip anyway.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Marty D. wrote: I really don't know. If a person has a Leonard with a short tip and hada complete restoration (including a new tip made)done by lets say BobTaylor . Do we consider that rod original? I don't know. Marty Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: But how about restored rods by the original makers? I have a coupleof Heddons that were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was rewrap them, fix lettering redo the reelseats and revarnish. He and hiswife were both responsible for the work on these rods when they werenew. Are these fraud rods now? Is a Garrison or Gillum or Zimny etcrod fraudulent because they may have been redone by the originalmakers and should they mark them as restored? Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ -- from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 08:29:07 2002 g11ET6W26053 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:29:06 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Fraud rods Hal, Great, finally I can get a knowledgeable answer to the eternal question- -- can a Leonard rod be reproduced by handplaning? The templates (patterns) used on the bevelers, did they exhibit sudden increases or decreases that could not be replicated by the spline curves possible in bending a thick steel form on 5" centers? Thanks.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Feb 1 08:34:16 2002 g11EYDW26421 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:34:14 -0600 Subject: Re: Fraud rods The $64,000 question. At 09:32 AM 2/1/02 -0500, Reed Curry wrote: Hal,Great, finally I can get a knowledgeable answer to the eternal question--- can a Leonard rod be reproduced by handplaning? Thetemplates (patterns) used on the bevelers, did they exhibit sudden increases or decreases that could not be replicated by the spline curves possible in bending a thick steel form on 5" centers?Thanks.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 08:35:27 2002 g11EZPW26557 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:35:25 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Neat old makers' brochures online Todd, The Copyright Act was revised in l976 to give much longer (almost indefinite) extension of copyright. That is why most of the Extracts on my Extracts page are so old. However, I could use newer works since my page is non-commercial and educational, under section 107 of the law - Fair Use. See http://www.loc.gov/copyright/title17/92chap1.html#107To anser your question about the Thomas and other catalogues, they would be covered under 107 #2 an #4, IMHO. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Todd Talsma wrote: Don't want to put a damper on all of this great sharing going on, but dowe need to be concerned with any copyright issues when we're postingpublished information, or is there some "statute of limitations" forpublished articles? Signed, Legally puzzled in Holland. -- > from ttalsma@macatawa.org Fri Feb 1 08:38:13 2002 Received: from Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:31:15 -0500 Received: from macatawa.org (TODDT Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id D56AMBYG; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:31:10 - Cc: Rodmakers List 09:34:48 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Thanks Reed, I'm glad wehave a copyright lawyer out here. ;^) I just wasn't sure about it. Reed Currywrote: Todd,The Copyright Act was revised in l976 to give much longer (almostindefinite) extension of copyright. That is why most of the Extracts onmy Extracts page are so old. However, I could use newer works since mypage is non-commercial and educational, under section 107 of the law - Fair Use. See http://www.loc.gov/copyright/title17/92chap1.html#107To anser your question about the Thomas and other catalogues, they wouldbe covered under 107 #2 an #4, IMHO. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Todd Talsma wrote: Don't want to put a damper on all of this great sharing going on, but dowe need to be concerned with any copyright issues when we're postingpublished information, or is there some "statute of limitations" forpublished articles? Signed, Legally puzzled in Holland. -- -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 08:41:43 2002 Received: from mail.ttlc.net 09:44:48 -0500 From: Reed Curry User-Agent:Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 CC: Rodmakers ListSubject: Re: Neat old makers' brochuresonline References: Content-Type: text/plain; rcurry@ttlc.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Todd,How unkind, I'm not a lawyer... just an innocent who can read. [:)] Bestregards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ Todd Talsma wrote: Thanks Reed, I'm glad we have a copyright lawyer out here. ;^) I just wasn't sure about it. Reed Curry wrote: from rmoon@ida.net Fri Feb 1 09:12:44 2002 g11FCiW29150 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:12:44 -0600 rcurry@ttlc.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Leonard history --------------248F76E77D96C7AEA05A9B34 Bret That was Larry Foster. I don't have any updated address for him Ralph Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: But wasn't Leonard picked up after that by a guy named Larry? Andcontinued to operate again or was this Larry guy there in 82/ Winston,the guy was in South Bend and somehow mixed up with JG who had theflyshop in SB at the time. Do you know who I am talking about?Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ --------------248F76E77D96C7AEA05A9B34 RalphGrhghlndr@aol.com wrote:Butwasn't to operate again or was this Larry guy there in 82/ Winston, the guy wasin South Bend and somehow mixed up with JG who had the flyshop in SB at Brethttp://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ --------------248F76E77D96C7AEA05A9B34-- from tfbinn@mindspring.com Fri Feb 1 09:44:39 2002 g11FicW00716 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:44:38 -0600 helo=7yjg501) id 16Wfrb-0003Ir-00; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:44:32 -0500 , , Subject: Re: Leonard history Bret,I really know very little about Leonard history but Larry Foster is an =acquaintance. As I understand it he was the last G.M. at Leonard before =the end. He came out of the Leonard bankruptcy with the Leonard name and=odds and ends of Leonard stuff. I assembled and wrapped a few cane rods = blanks but I don't know if they came from "original" Leonard stock or =were built for Larry. They were assembled using Leonard components =(marked butt caps, etc.) and as the owner of the name I believe he had =the right to use them. He moved to Indiana in the early 90's and finally =sold the Leonard name to a fellow who published a magazine if I remember =correctly. The last I knew Larry was living in Mishawaka Ind. and was =working for the school system.Winston Bret,I really know very little about Leonard = Larry Foster is an acquaintance. As I understand it he was the last G.M. = Leonard before the end. He came out of the Leonard bankruptcy with the = name and odds and ends of Leonard stuff. I assembled and wrapped a few = but I don't know if they came from "original" Leonard stock or were = Larry. They were assembled using Leonard components (marked butt caps, = as the owner of the name I believe he had the right to use them. He = Indiana in the early 90's and finally sold the Leonard name to a fellow = living in Mishawaka Ind. and was working for the school =system.Winston from rextutor@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 09:52:36 2002 g11FqZW01447 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:52:35 -0600 01 Feb 2002 07:52:34 PST Subject: Leonard History rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Maybe some of you knew this but Leonard rods areapparently still being made. I don't know if bevelersand templates are in use but the Leonard name isobservable. Brian J. McGrath advertises athttp://www.hlleonard.com/catalog.html. I have been reading M Keanes book. This rods in the19th century were $30 compare them today at $2700. --- Jerry Young wrote: Believe the H.L. Leonard name is now owned by BrianJ. McGrath. Ibelieve he was the publisher of Fishing CollectiblesMag. Now the rodbuilding has been relocated to Houston, TX. Jerry Young __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from baconrod@gsmrinc.com Fri Feb 1 10:21:39 2002 g11GLcW02862 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:21:38 -0600 Subject: Re: Leonard History Rex.Brian is selling a few rods today. They were built by Ron McKinley inthe past, on blanks made by me on the beveller using the original Leonardtapers. Since Ron stoped making rods he sold his equipment to me. I an nowmaking the Leonard rods for Brian in my shop. Last year there was a writeupin Town and Country Mag. about the Hunt 38-4 rod.Best Hal.----- Original Message ---- - Subject: Leonard History Maybe some of you knew this but Leonard rods areapparently still being made. I don't know if bevelersand templates are in use but the Leonard name isobservable. Brian J. McGrath advertises athttp://www.hlleonard.com/catalog.html. I have been reading M Keanes book. This rods in the19th century were $30 compare them today at $2700. --- Jerry Young wrote: Believe the H.L. Leonard name is now owned by BrianJ. McGrath. Ibelieve he was the publisher of Fishing CollectiblesMag. Now the rodbuilding has been relocated to Houston, TX. Jerry Young __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com from ctcaneman@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 10:24:06 2002 g11GO5W03170 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:24:05 -0600 01 Feb 2002 08:24:05 PST Subject: H.L. Leonard With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and acollectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from stoltz10@attbi.com Fri Feb 1 10:44:16 2002 g11GiGW04967 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:44:16 -0600 Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:44:07 +0000 Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard That was the point I was trying to make yesterday. I can see paying a lotof money for a historical piece, but when see new rods with bigmanufacturesname on it and a $2000 price tag on it you really got to question what youare paying for, the rod or the name? Plus if I was to turn into a collectorI think I would try to collect the rods made by the people on this list. Tome it would be much more interesting to own rod made by people who I knowthrough the list and know their philosophy behind their rods. Tim----- Original Message ----- Subject: H.L. Leonard With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and acollectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com from bob@downandacross.com Fri Feb 1 10:52:45 2002 g11GqiW05622 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:52:45 -0600 1 Feb 2002 11:52:37 -0500 Subject: RE: Fraud rods Hi Hal:Thanks for the great info. I have a few questions that always pop up whenguys talk about mills...1. Beveller vs. mill. Which is the preferred method to cut strips?2. What do you feel is the optimal cutter speed. Does it change for bevellervs. mill.3. What do you think is the best way to pursue building a mill?4. Is there a source that could provide pictures of some of the master'sbevellers or mills? I know of Chris's excellent post regarding publishedpics.I have good pics of the Dickerson mill, but what about those machines ofLeonard, Payne, Gillum, Edwards, Thomas, etc.... I have always thought thiswould be a fascinating topic for a book...the machinery of split cane flyrods.Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have been pursuing several millslately and am excited to pick them up, but ultimately want to build my own.I want to run these until I know exactly what I want to work with, and thenI will build it.Best regards,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fraud rods Reed and Others.After the Bankruptsy sale at Leonard The 2 Bevellers went to MarkAraner the second beveller was minus the head which Bob Taylor has. Therewas 3 bevellers built by Brown Engineering for Leonard after the firedestroyed the Ruben Leonard beveller. I owned the third beveller which Isold to REC when I sold the Payne Trade name and equipment. I now own theGeorge Halstead equipment. His beveller was designed after the PayneBeveller but with his modifications. Dan good machine. The Leonard tradename was sold by Larry Foster to Brian McGraph of Houston Tex.back in theearly 90's or late 80's. Back in the 70's I used to repair the bevellers atLeonard. Ask Ted Sin he will tell you about Leonard history of who did what.Ted was on the board of Directors at Leonard up to the last.Best Hal. from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Fri Feb 1 10:57:54 2002 g11GvrW06145 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:57:53 -0600 Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Organization: Wethersfield Public Schools Can't see paying that kind of money for a name. I would much rather havea rod made by anyone on this list at a fair price, I don't think anyonehere is asking more than what there rods are worth. But, $2750.00!? Pete -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard That was the point I was trying to make yesterday. I can see paying alot of money for a historical piece, but when see new rods with bigmanufactures name on it and a $2000 price tag on it you really got toquestion what you are paying for, the rod or the name? Plus if I was toturn into a collector I think I would try to collect the rods made bythe people on this list. To me it would be much more interesting to ownrod made by people who I know through the list and know their philosophybehind their rods. Tim----- Original Message ----- Subject: H.L. Leonard With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and a collectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 11:08:21 2002 g11H8KW06862 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:08:20 -0600 Feb 2002 09:08:14 PST Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard bigger bragging rights?! --- Paul Hamm wrote: With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and acollectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from darrell@vFish.net Fri Feb 1 11:28:44 2002 g11HSiW08360 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:28:44 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:28:43 -0600 Subject: RE: H.L. Leonard Tim, Collecting rods from makers on the list could be very interesting. However,like art, the artist or craftsman has to croak for the value to rise... Ormaybe sever an ear or other body part... 50 years from now, they would probably prove to be wise investmentsbecausemost of the listers will have a very limited number of rods produced.Scarcity increases value. Interesting, the rods that sell for the most money tend to be great fishingrods rather than historical and rare antique rods... i.e. a 6.5' Dickersonor Garrison will sell for a lot more than a 120 year old ultra- rarehistorical antique rod. The BFR collecting community has a ways to go asfar as collecting trends. I recently purchased a George Varney rod and a Varney Brothers rod circa1894-1900, both in excellent original condition and paid at auction muchless than I feel the true value of them are. No, they are not for sale...They are now part of my Montague rod collection... I feel Varney is part ofthe history of Montague and so I was estatic when I finally received them.Bizarre, eh? It appears that Varney made much of the hardware for the old dead guys...Payne, Thomas, Edwards, Kosmic and is also linked to HL Leonard as well. Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 ==================Angling, collecting & rod making books at:http://www.vfish.net/files/acebooks7.PDF================== -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard That was the point I was trying to make yesterday. I can see paying a lotof money for a historical piece, but when see new rods with bigmanufacturesname on it and a $2000 price tag on it you really got to question what youare paying for, the rod or the name? Plus if I was to turn into a collectorI think I would try to collect the rods made by the people on this list. Tome it would be much more interesting to own rod made by people who I knowthrough the list and know their philosophy behind their rods. Tim----- Original Message ----- Subject: H.L. Leonard With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and acollectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com from Kengorific@aol.com Fri Feb 1 11:29:23 2002 g11HTNW08502 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:29:23 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:29:01 -0500 Subject: small scraper plane I have been reading Jack Howell's 'The Lovely Reed' , in this section on tools he has aphoto of his favorite plane, a small bodied scraper by Conover Woodcraft. Does anyone know where I can get one? The construction looks simple, I might try to make one if I knew the blade angle and bevel dimensions. Thanks, Ken from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Feb 1 11:45:15 2002 g11HjEW09597 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:45:14 -0600 g11Hj9801857 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:45:09 -0600 Subject: Splitting Bamboo Thought this might help someone that has notfigured out how to split in thirds.I was splitting a culm yesterday and found to getthe most out of the culm I really needed to splitin thirds. After splitting half, half and half,the strips would be too wide if I split in halfand too narrow if I split those in half again.That means splitting in thirds. In splittingthirds, the narrow strip will have a tendency towalk to the outside giving you a splinter spearabout halfway through the split.A way to counter this is real simple. Start the1/3 rd split and work the fro or knife through thesplit for about a foot or so. Where the splitstarts, put the edge of "fat" end against a post,workbench or something solid. Grab the bambooabout half way down the length and hold it againstyour waist,Now put the pressure you need against the bamboobending the "fat" side away from you. The splitwill stay straight. If it does want to go to theoutside of the narrow strip, put some morepressure on the "fat" end and the split will moveto the "fat" side. Decrease pressure if it travelstoo much to the "fat" sideStarted doing this after I wasted a lot of thefirst culm I split.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from rextutor@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 11:53:41 2002 g11HreW10475 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:53:40 -0600 01 Feb 2002 09:53:39 PST Subject: Re: Leonard History RodMakers Listserve HalI hope you don't mind if I share this discussion withthe list. I am interested in the history of bamboo forits own sake, maybe others might be curious ,too. Have you ever hand planned a rod ? I am assuming thebeveler does final dimensions, right ? Could youcompare the results of the Leonard beveler with handplanning ? Is it faster ? more accurate ? hard to do ?etc TIA--- Harold Bacon wrote: Rex.Brian is selling a few rods today. They werebuilt by Ron McKinley inthe past, on blanks made by me on the beveller usingthe original Leonardtapers. Since Ron stoped making rods he sold hisequipment to me. I an nowmaking the Leonard rods for Brian in my shop. Lastyear there was a writeupin Town and Country Mag. about the Hunt 38-4 rod.Best Hal.----- Original Message ---- -From: "Rex Tutor" Cc: "Marty D." ;; Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 10:52 AMSubject: Leonard History Maybe some of you knew this but Leonard rods areapparently still being made. I don't know if bevelers and templates are in use but the Leonard name isobservable. Brian J. McGrath advertises athttp://www.hlleonard.com/catalog.html. I have been reading M Keanes book. This rods in the 19th century were $30 compare them today at $2700. --- Jerry Young wrote: Believe the H.L. Leonard name is now owned by Brian J. McGrath. Ibelieve he was the publisher of Fishing Collectibles Mag. Now the rodbuilding has been relocated to Houston, TX. Jerry Young __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Fri Feb 1 12:12:26 2002 g11ICQW11554 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:12:26 -0600 Subject: RE: H.L. Leonard Organization: Wethersfield Public Schools Bigger tears when you break the thing too! -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard bigger bragging rights?! --- Paul Hamm wrote: With all the experienced roda makers available tobuild rods based on a taper, why would anyone pay$2750.00 for a rod unless it was an antique and a collectible? Paul __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Feb 1 12:15:06 2002 g11IF6W11842 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:15:06 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4184. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.625527 secs); 01 Feb 2002 18:15:01 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Fraud rods OK then, if B. McGrath restored (I actually think it's Ron McKinley who was/is the rodmaker ) a 1970's Leonard including making a new tip do we consider that rod original? No! Marty Jerry Young wrote: Believe the H.L. Leonard name is now owned by Brian J. McGrath. Ibelieve he was the publisher of Fishing Collectibles Mag. Now the rodbuilding has been relocated to Houston, TX. Jerry Young from rkrees@mcn.net Fri Feb 1 12:24:23 2002 g11IOMW12693 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:24:22 -0600 helo=rkrees.mcn.net) id 16WiMF-00003b-00; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:24:20 -0800 Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Darrell said"Or maybe sever an ear or other body part.." Bob How much did you say your rods were?. from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Fri Feb 1 12:34:04 2002 g11IY3W13330 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:34:03 -0600 Subject: RE: H.L. Leonard Organization: Wethersfield Public Schools A new Leonard will run you $2750.00 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Darrell said"Or maybe sever an ear or other body part.." Bob How much did you say your rods were?. from gord@teleport.com Fri Feb 1 12:55:39 2002 g11ItdW14339 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:55:39 -0600 helo=there) id 16WiqX-0000iT-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:55:38 -0800 who from prodcane@netscape.net Fri Feb 1 13:23:28 2002 g11JNSW16683 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:23:28 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:23:21 -0500 Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:23:21 -0500 Subject: not a dealer? then delete! Hi,I have my beveller fine tuned and capable of machining cane to to finishedsize faster than a Chinese sweat shop. The dimensional and angular accuracy is far superior to hand planed strips and the saving in wear and tear on thebody is immeasurable. I have a lathe converted to cnc for ferrules a range of tooling and presses I will be engineering rods full time in the classic tradition and a lot of them!If there are any professional dealers out there that can shift cane rods thengive me a call. I might also be interested in outsourcing finishing.Terry Acklanduse hexagon@odyssee.net -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mailaccount today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > from fbcwin@3g.quik.comFri Feb 1 13:24:09 2002 Received: from q4.quik.com (q4.quik.com 2002 11:25:40 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept- Subject: Block plane tuning sites Content- fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENFriends, Once again I ask your help. I'm looking for a web article on fine tuningblock planes so that they work best. The link from Rodmakers to FineWoodworking doesn't seem to come up with what I'm looking for, but Iremember that as a helpful article. I'd like to send this to a friend, so anyhelp you can give will help more than me. Thanks, Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ --Our Church -- > from harms1@pa.net Fri Feb 1 13:24:28 2002 Received: References:Subject: Re: small scraper plane Date: MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 harms1@pa.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ken,This little tool looks very nice, but it really doesn't work very well for ourpurposes. Or, at least, that has been my experience. I bought one aboutthree years ago, but it leaves little "chatter marks" on the surface. I thinkperhaps the problem is just that it doesn't have enough overall mass toproduce a nice, smooth surface. It is possible that I haven't been sharpeningand burnishing the little iron quite properly, yet I seem to have no difficultydoing this on my 3" x 5" hand-held scraper. So, that's all I ever use now. I'll behappy to send you the little Conover scraper as a gift (that is if I can locatethe damn thing in my mess) if you will send me your address. cheers, Bill ----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:29 PMSubject: small scraper plane I have been reading Jack Howell's 'The Lovely Reed' , in this section ontools he has aphoto of his favorite plane, a small bodied scraper by Conover Woodcraft. Does anyone know where I can get one? The constructionlookssimple, I might try to make one if I knew the blade angle and beveldimensions. Thanks, Ken from ttalsma@macatawa.org Fri Feb 1 13:51:33 2002 g11JpWW18815 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:51:32 -0600 id ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:44:35 -0500 id D56AMB9Y; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:44:33 -0500 Rodmakers List Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Peter, I think he was talking about Bob Nunley. He's pretty close to severinga body part anyway, right? Peter Van Schaack wrote: A new Leonard will run you $2750.00 -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:26 PM Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Darrell said"Or maybe sever an ear or other body part.." Bob How much did you say your rods were?. -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from Mark.Babiy@stel.tdsb.on.ca Fri Feb 1 14:04:01 2002 Received: from Date: Kengorific@aol.com Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu From: "Mark Babiy"References: Mark.Babiy@stel.tdsb.on.ca Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ken, Igot one from Woodcraft. I would agree with Bill. It is not that great oraccurate, but I do use it to take glue off a rod. The throat is a little too smalland gets easily jammed up with shavings. Its not a bad tool, but I think that Iwould rather put the $30 towards the Lie Neison scraper plane. I have usedall kinds of things to scrape and lately have been using a razor blades withsuccess. Lee Valley also sells these tiny little scrapper blades that work well.Mark > from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 14:16:46 2002 Received: from 15:19:42 -0500 From: Reed Curry User-Agent:Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Mark.Babiy@stel.tdsb.on.ca CC: Kengorific@aol.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: small scraper plane References: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Mark, The cheapest solution,and no sharpening required, is window glass. A glass cutter, a straightedgeand some glass gives you plenty of disposable scrapers. Best regards, Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Mark Babiy wrote: Ken, I got one from Woodcraft. I would agree with Bill. It is not that greator accurate, but I do use it to take glue off a rod. The throat is alittle too small and gets easily jammed up with shavings. Its not a badtool, but I think that I would rather put the $30 towards the Lie Neisonscraper plane. I have used all kinds of things to scrape and lately havebeen using a razor blades with success. Lee Valley also sells these tinylittle scrapper blades that work well. Mark . -- > from darrell@vFish.net Fri Feb 1 14:42:24 2002 Received: from g11KgNW21776 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 , "Reed Curry" Cc: "rod"Subject: RE: Restored rods are notnecessarily Fraud rods Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:41:31 -0800 Message-ID: Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu rod is not a fraud, it's how it's represented... i.e. if the seller informs thebuyer that the tip was scarfed, the rod restored, etc... then it is not fraud ifall work or defects were truthfully disclosed. If all the work was disclosed,the buyer can make an informed decision and then buy, not buy or reject therestored rod... It's when a seller does not disclose the defects or work donethat fraud occurs... Soooo... what you have is a fraud seller, not a fraudrod... You cannot convict a BFR of fraud, just the seller. Intentionalmisrepresentation is fraud... I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I see it. Hey it'sjust like real estate or buying anything of value, let the buyer beware... Thisis why some buyers prefer buying thru dealers in that when they receive therod in the mail, they usually have a time period to return the rod if it doesnot meet with their expectations. Generally when you buy on auctions orebay, there is no right to return policy. This is why rods on ebay usually sell for a lot less 25-50% lessthan thru dealers. I've bought many rods on ebay that I thought was a greatbuy and it turned out to be junk... Undisclosed broken tips, delaminatedsections, a HL Leonard that was really an H-I with HL Leonard written on therod... As careful as I am, I still get taken occasionally and that has tobe factored in. It is easily worth 25-30% more to deal with a dealer that offers a returnpolicy when you are only buying 1-3 rods per year. I usually buy 20-30 rodsper month so if I get stung once in awhile, then it's not that big a deal.But if someone has their heart set on a rod and gets gypped, then he will bevery upset... Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 ==================Angling, collecting & rod making books at:http://www.vfish.net/files/acebooks7.PDF================== -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fraud rods That is what I'd call it! Marty Reed Curry wrote: Marty,While many experienced collectors can detect a restored rod,sometimes the work is done so artfully that the restoration is notapparent. In this case the prospective purchaser may believe that allthe parts are original. Sometimes this is the intent of theseller/repairer...this is called fraud, is it not?Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Marty D. wrote: Every rod that is in restored condition should be considered ashaving replacement parts. I always felt that this is why restoredrods have considerably less value than original ones. I know I havemade more than a few tips for classics over the years. Marty from darrell@vFish.net Fri Feb 1 14:42:24 2002 g11KgNW21780 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:42:23 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:42:22 -0600 Subject: RE:Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... seenext email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it was restored rodswere not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that were not made by him,but last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... he restoresarod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to bejust as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. Payne Rod Co.last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't the value of therod be equal? How about 30 years from now and the provenance is lost, whenthere is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling you that myopinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion thenfine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up for sale and it'spriced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blow and you feel it isoverpriced because it was not restored by the original Grand Ole Master(whoever that might be) then you feel the value is lower and might bewilling to only spend yyy dollars and pass on the rod. That is how the freemarket works... everyone has their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restored rod.Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50 years, 7owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could begin to look likean original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 ==================Angling, collecting & rod making books at:http://www.vfish.net/files/acebooks7.PDF================== -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Fraud rods But how about restored rods by the original makers? I have a couple ofHeddons that were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was re wrap them,fix lettering redo the reelseats and revarnish. He and his wife were bothresponsible for the work on these rods when they were new. Are thesefraudrods now? Is a Garrison or Gillum or Zimny etc rod fraudulent because theymay have been redone by the original makers and should they mark them asrestored? Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... = email... Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it was restored by = other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority of HL Leonard rods were = workers employed by the H.L. Leonard Rod Co. over the last 100 years, = about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... he restores a = that company... does that qualify as a factory =restoration? point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to be = much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. Payne Rod Co. last = If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't the value of the rod be = about 30 years from now and the provenance is lost, when there is no way = document the history of the rod. sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling you that my = is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion then = can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up for sale and it's priced at = dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blow and you feel it is overpriced = be) then you feel the value is lower and might be willing to only spend = dollars and pass on the rod. That is how the free market works... = their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for = Mint restored rod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... = in 50 years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could = Emptor! Regards,Darrell LeeAnglers 452- Grhghlndr@aol.comSent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 were restored by Bernard Hills and all he did was re wrap them, fix = may have been redone by the original makers and should they mark them = restored?Brethttp://bretsovens.bravepages.c=om/ from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Feb 1 14:50:14 2002 g11KoDW22550 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:50:13 -0600 g11KoA811773 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:50:10 -0600 Subject: Re: small scraper plane Used to use glass when I was refinishing rods back in the 40's. Find razorbladesmore to my liking now.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Reed Curry wrote: Mark,The cheapest solution, and no sharpening required, is window glass. Aglass cutter, a straightedge and some glass gives you plenty ofdisposable scrapers. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Mark Babiy wrote: Ken, I got one from Woodcraft. I would agree with Bill. It is not that greator accurate, but I do use it to take glue off a rod. The throat is alittle too small and gets easily jammed up with shavings. Its not a badtool, but I think that I would rather put the $30 towards the Lie Neisonscraper plane. I have used all kinds of things to scrape and lately havebeen using a razor blades with success. Lee Valley also sells these tinylittle scrapper blades that work well. Mark . -- from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 15:04:55 2002 g11L4sW23823 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:04:54 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Darrell, If you buy thirty rods a month, you have probably purchased at leastone with a replacement part that the seller did not disclose as a replacement; e.g., a new mid or tip. If the work was artfully done, you may not detect the fraud (you were defrauded) and may, in fact, sell the piece to someone else as all original, unrestored. This is propogating an act of fraud (selling under false pretenses, even if acting in ignorance, you are not, as you said, "disclosing the work done") that could have been avoided if all restorers marked replacement pieces. Just my opinion.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: The rod is not a fraud, it's how it's represented... i.e. if the sellerinforms the buyer that the tip was scarfed, the rod restored, etc... then itis not fraud if all work or defects were truthfully disclosed. If all thework was disclosed, the buyer can make an informed decision and then buy,not buy or reject the restored rod... It's when a seller does not disclose the defects or work done that fraudoccurs... Soooo... what you have is a fraud seller, not a fraud rod... Youcannot convict a BFR of fraud, just the seller. Intentionalmisrepresentation is fraud... I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I see it. Hey it's just like real estate or buying anything of value, let the buyerbeware... This is why some buyers prefer buying thru dealers in that whenthey receive the rod in the mail, they usually have a time period to returnthe rod if it does not meet with their expectations. Generally when you buy on auctions or ebay, there is no right to returnpolicy. This is why rods on ebay usually sell for a lot less 25-50% lessthan thru dealers. I've bought many rods on ebay that I thought was agreatbuy and it turned out to be junk... Undisclosed broken tips, delaminatedsections, a HL Leonard that was really an H-I with HL Leonard written ontherod... As careful as I am, I still get taken occasionally and that has tobe factored in. It is easily worth 25-30% more to deal with a dealer that offers a returnpolicy when you are only buying 1-3 rods per year. I usually buy 20-30 rodsper month so if I get stung once in awhile, then it's not that big a deal.But if someone has their heart set on a rod and gets gypped, then he willbevery upset... Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from rextutor@yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 15:11:05 2002 g11LB4W24420 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:11:04 -0600 01 Feb 2002 13:11:04 PST Subject: Re: Block plane tuning sites Try Todds tip site http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/index.html This is an article of preparing and grooving planeshttp://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Tips/Plane_Prep/Plane_Prep_-_Grooving/plane_prep_-_grooving.html --- Harry Boyd wrote: Friends, Once again I ask your help. I'm looking for aweb article on fine tuning block planes so thatthey work best. The link from Rodmakers to FineWoodworking doesn't seem to come up with what I'mlooking for, but I remember that as a helpfularticle. I'd like to send this to a friend, so any helpyou can give will help more than me. Thanks,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from Mark.Babiy@stel.tdsb.on.ca Fri Feb 1 15:11:55 2002 g11LBsW24592 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:11:54 -0600 Subject: Re: small scraper plane Reed, Have tried the glass method. However, mention glass and I think hospital,just past experiences. Safety razor blades seem to work for me. Mark Babiy from Grayson.Davis@valpo.edu Fri Feb 1 15:14:20 2002 g11LEJW25011 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:14:19 -0600 g11LEIV01245 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:14:18 -0600 M2002020109543718787 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:54:37 -0600 Subject: Re: cutting rings I tried cutting NS tubing on my lathe and all it did was to squish (mytechnical term) the tubing walls with the jaws of the vise. I am sure itcan be done, but I decided to go with solid bar instead. Rob I am NO EXPERT, but I have had some success with the following. You can use a wooden mandrel or an expanding steel mandrel wrapped with tape while cutting off in the lathe. Cut off tools with appropriate side clearance built in are available. Holding a hacksaw against a spinning tube mounted on a mandrel is probably not an approved practice, so I would like to hear the opinions of real machinists before I do that again. -Grayson -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 15:20:45 2002 g11LKiW25571 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:20:44 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Darrell, I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However, when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. The answer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original. A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longera Leonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old, since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, it is not a valid Leonard. You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, thatis of interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much a Payne as one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatum emptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it was restored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority of HL Leonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that were not made by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L. Leonard Rod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... herestores a rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to be just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. Payne Rod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't the value of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and the provenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling you that my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up for sale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blow and you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by the original Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel the value is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and pass on the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restored rod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50 years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could begin to look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from tedknott@cogeco.ca Fri Feb 1 15:35:44 2002 g11LZiW26457 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:35:44 -0600 Subject: Re: cutting rings I use a split bushing to grip the tubing OD. Bore a hole the same diameteras the tubing OD in a piece of round bar. Slit one side with a hack saw.This will clamp the tubing all around its perimeter rather than just at thethree jaw points. from rodwrapp@swbell.net Fri Feb 1 15:55:28 2002 g11LtRW27915 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:55:28 -0600 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Re: cutting rings Why not use a tubeing cutter?? Thanks Dave----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: cutting rings I tried cutting NS tubing on my lathe and all it did was to squish (mytechnical term) the tubing walls with the jaws of the vise. I am sure it can be done, but I decided to go with solid bar instead. Rob I am NO EXPERT, but I have had some success with thefollowing. You can use a wooden mandrel or an expandingsteel mandrel wrapped with tape while cutting off in thelathe. Cut off tools with appropriate side clearance builtin are available. Holding a hacksaw against a spinningtube mounted on a mandrel is probably not an approvedpractice, so I would like to hear the opinions of realmachinists before I do that again. -Grayson -----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Fri Feb 1 16:33:23 2002 g11MXMW29604 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:33:22 -0600 g11MXLXD024365 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:33:21 -0500 Subject: Re: not a dealer? then delete! g11MXNW29607 Just in case no one else noticed..... He's Baaaaacccckkkkk........ ;^? Mark At 02:23 PM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote: Hi,I have my beveller fine tuned and capable of machining cane to to finished size faster than a Chinese sweat shop. The dimensional and angular accuracy is far superior to hand planed strips and the saving in wear and tear on the body is immeasurable.I have a lathe converted to cnc for ferrules a range of tooling and presses for reel seat harware and several hundred pounds of NS strip.I will be engineering rods full time in the classic tradition and a lot of them!If there are any professional dealers out there that can shift cane rods then give me a call. I might also be interested in outsourcing finishing.Terry Acklanduse hexagon@odyssee.net -- __________________________________________________________________Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ from piscator@macatawa.org Fri Feb 1 16:44:44 2002 g11MihW00202 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:44:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Reed, Do you consider silicone implants to still be b**bs or not? Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Darrell,I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However,when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. Theanswer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original.A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longer aLeonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old,since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, itis not a valid Leonard.You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, that isof interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much a Payneas one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatumemptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed...see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it wasrestored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority ofHLLeonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that werenotmade by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L.LeonardRod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... herestoresa rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue tobe just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. PayneRod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't thevalue of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and theprovenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling youthat my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with myopinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up forsale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blowand you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by theoriginal Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel thevalue is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and passon the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has their ownperception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restoredrod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could beginto look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from bob@downandacross.com Fri Feb 1 16:52:08 2002 g11Mq7W00706 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:52:07 -0600 ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:45:54 -0500 Subject: Ian Martin Do any of you gentlemen who know Ian have any clue as to if he is stilonline? I have tried to reach him many times over the last two months withno luck.Thanks, Bob from kenealyj@gwi.net Fri Feb 1 16:55:19 2002 g11MtIW01047 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:55:18 -0600 Subject: Re: not a dealer? then delete! SSSSSSShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! Maybe he'll go away----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: not a dealer? then delete! Just in case no one else noticed..... He's Baaaaacccckkkkk........ ;^? Mark At 02:23 PM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote: Hi,I have my beveller fine tuned and capable of machining cane to to finished size faster than a Chinese sweat shop. The dimensional and angularaccuracy is far superior to hand planed strips and the saving in wear and tear on the body is immeasurable.I have a lathe converted to cnc for ferrules a range of tooling andpresses for reel seat harware and several hundred pounds of NS strip.I will be engineering rods full time in the classic tradition and a lot of them!If there are any professional dealers out there that can shift cane rodsthen give me a call. I might also be interested in outsourcing finishing.Terry Acklanduse hexagon@odyssee.net -- __________________________________________________________________Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today athttp://webmail.netscape.com/ from homes-sold@attbi.com Fri Feb 1 17:21:50 2002 g11NLoW02267 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:21:50 -0600 Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:21:39 +0000 Subject: Re: small scraper plane Ken, I use a Lie-Nielsen 212 scraper plane that works extremely well. I also usethe Stanley replacement blades for utility knives at times for scraperswhich work well and are a lot less expensive.Good luck, Don----- Original Message --- -- Subject: small scraper plane I have been reading Jack Howell's 'The Lovely Reed' , in this section ontools he has aphoto of his favorite plane, a small bodied scraper by ConoverWoodcraft. Does anyone know where I can get one? The construction lookssimple, I might try to make one if I knew the blade angle and beveldimensions. Thanks, Ken from rkrees@mcn.net Fri Feb 1 17:28:33 2002 g11NSWW02687 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:28:32 -0600 helo=rkrees.mcn.net) id 16Wn6a-0005e9-00; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:28:29 -0800 "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Yes that is the Man!Ron from caneman@clnk.com Fri Feb 1 17:47:26 2002 g11NlQW03526 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:47:26 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard My oldest son is way ahead of you... tried to get me to go naked flyfishingin the Arctic during Polar Bear breeding season... He did want me to make up100 rods or so before I went! *S* Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Peter, I think he was talking about Bob Nunley. He's pretty close to severinga body part anyway, right? Peter Van Schaack wrote: A new Leonard will run you $2750.00 -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:26 PM Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Darrell said"Or maybe sever an ear or other body part.." Bob How much did you say your rods were?. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction from ChristopherO@epicimaging.com Fri Feb 1 18:08:39 2002 be forged)) g1208cW04502 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:08:38 -0600 id ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:05:05 -0800 Subject: SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE CleanCleanDocumentEmail MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle- rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso- style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para- margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow- orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} SET RODMAKERS MAIL =POSTPONE from iank@ts.co.nz Fri Feb 1 18:11:32 2002 g120BUW04788 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:11:31 -0600 by sage.ts.co.nz (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g120H8b03893 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu.KAV; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:17:08+1300 Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:17:07 +1300 Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Tony, I use the "cheat" method from the " best of planning form" when splittinginto thirds. This involves getting an old nail punch and filing the end intoa wedge shape. The width of the culm at each node is measured and markedinto thirds. The nail punch is used to punch a split in the strip at each ofthe nodes on the one third mark. It is then very easy to split the stripbetween these nodes using a knife in the vice method or a screwdriver. Inmany cases the split in the nodes will actually join up and any wondering islimited to a short distance. Ian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Splitting Bamboo Thought this might help someone that has notfigured out how to split in thirds.I was splitting a culm yesterday and found to getthe most out of the culm I really needed to splitin thirds. After splitting half, half and half,the strips would be too wide if I split in halfand too narrow if I split those in half again.That means splitting in thirds. In splittingthirds, the narrow strip will have a tendency towalk to the outside giving you a splinter spearabout halfway through the split.A way to counter this is real simple. Start the1/3 rd split and work the fro or knife through thesplit for about a foot or so. Where the splitstarts, put the edge of "fat" end against a post,workbench or something solid. Grab the bambooabout half way down the length and hold it againstyour waist,Now put the pressure you need against the bamboobending the "fat" side away from you. The splitwill stay straight. If it does want to go to theoutside of the narrow strip, put some morepressure on the "fat" end and the split will moveto the "fat" side. Decrease pressure if it travelstoo much to the "fat" sideStarted doing this after I wasted a lot of thefirst culm I split.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Feb 1 18:16:13 2002 g120GCW05104 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:16:12 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: February Contest I decided to run another contest with a nice present from Rush River Rods.-- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ > from jojo@ipa.netFri Feb 1 18:29:39 2002 Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net 16Wo3l-0002sg-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Fri, 01 Feb 200219:29:38 -0500 Message-ID:From: "Jojo DeLancier" References: Subject: Re: Restored rods Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Hmmm, I consider them to beexpensive store-bought, plastic imitations -- sort of like graphite rods. M-D Reed, Do you consider silicone implants to still be b**bs or not? Brian From: "Reed Curry" Darrell,I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However,when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. Theanswer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original.A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longer aLeonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old,since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, itis not a valid Leonard.You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, that is of interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much aPayneas one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatumemptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it wasrestored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority of HL Leonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that were not made by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L. Leonard Rod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... he restores a rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to be just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F.PayneRod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't thevalue of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and theprovenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling youthat my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up forsale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blowand you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by theoriginal Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel thevalue is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and passon the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restoredrod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50 years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could begin to look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Feb 1 18:34:37 2002 g120YaW06019 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:34:36 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4183. .Clear:0. Processed in 1.024655 secs); 02 Feb 2002 00:34:35 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods The same could be said when selling a car , house or anything for that matter. If a buyer looks at your used car and does not ask if it was ever hit and you do not tell him the rear quarter panel is 50% bondo you have defrauded him. If a buyer for your house looks at your house and you do not tell him the septic system sometimes makes an appearance above ground or the water heater is on it's last leg you have defrauded him. I believe everyone on this list has at some time been guilty of the sin of omission.. Marty Reed Curry wrote: Darrell,If you buy thirty rods a month, you have probably purchased at least one with a replacement part that the seller did not disclose as a replacement; e.g., a new mid or tip. If the work was artfully done, you may not detect the fraud (you were defrauded) and may, in fact, sell the piece to someone else as all original, unrestored. This is propogating an act of fraud (selling under false pretenses, even if acting in ignorance, you are not, as you said, "disclosing the work done") that could have been avoided if all restorers marked replacement pieces.Just my opinion.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: The rod is not a fraud, it's how it's represented... i.e. if the sellerinforms the buyer that the tip was scarfed, the rod restored, etc... then itis not fraud if all work or defects were truthfully disclosed. If all thework was disclosed, the buyer can make an informed decision and then buy,not buy or reject the restored rod... It's when a seller does not disclose the defects or work done that fraudoccurs... Soooo... what you have is a fraud seller, not a fraud rod... Youcannot convict a BFR of fraud, just the seller. Intentionalmisrepresentation is fraud... I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I see it. Hey it's just like real estate or buying anything of value, let the buyerbeware... This is why some buyers prefer buying thru dealers in that whenthey receive the rod in the mail, they usually have a time period to returnthe rod if it does not meet with their expectations. Generally when you buy on auctions or ebay, there is no right to returnpolicy. This is why rods on ebay usually sell for a lot less 25-50% lessthan thru dealers. I've bought many rods on ebay that I thought was a greatbuy and it turned out to be junk... Undisclosed broken tips, delaminatedsections, a HL Leonard that was really an H-I with HL Leonard written on therod... As careful as I am, I still get taken occasionally and that has tobe factored in. It is easily worth 25-30% more to deal with a dealer that offers a returnpolicy when you are only buying 1-3 rods per year. I usually buy 20-30 rodsper month so if I get stung once in awhile, then it's not that big a deal.But if someone has their heart set on a rod and gets gypped, then he will bevery upset... Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from fquinchat@locl.net Fri Feb 1 18:50:06 2002 g120o5W06542 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:50:05 -0600 Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Feb 1 18:53:02 2002 g120r1W06816 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:53:01 -0600 g120qw800408 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:52:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Ian,We do what works best for us. I have tried a couple of other ways and findusing" bend the fat side" is the easiest and fastest way for me. I am sure thereareother ways others are doing it. Thanks for posting your way.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Ian Kearney wrote: Tony, I use the "cheat" method from the " best of planning form" when splittinginto thirds. This involves getting an old nail punch and filing the end intoa wedge shape. The width of the culm at each node is measured andmarkedinto thirds. The nail punch is used to punch a split in the strip at each ofthe nodes on the one third mark. It is then very easy to split the stripbetween these nodes using a knife in the vice method or a screwdriver. Inmany cases the split in the nodes will actually join up and any wondering islimited to a short distance. Ian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Spezio" Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 6:42 AMSubject: Splitting Bamboo Thought this might help someone that has notfigured out how to split in thirds.I was splitting a culm yesterday and found to getthe most out of the culm I really needed to splitin thirds. After splitting half, half and half,the strips would be too wide if I split in halfand too narrow if I split those in half again.That means splitting in thirds. In splittingthirds, the narrow strip will have a tendency towalk to the outside giving you a splinter spearabout halfway through the split.A way to counter this is real simple. Start the1/3 rd split and work the fro or knife through thesplit for about a foot or so. Where the splitstarts, put the edge of "fat" end against a post,workbench or something solid. Grab the bambooabout half way down the length and hold it againstyour waist,Now put the pressure you need against the bamboobending the "fat" side away from you. The splitwill stay straight. If it does want to go to theoutside of the narrow strip, put some morepressure on the "fat" end and the split will moveto the "fat" side. Decrease pressure if it travelstoo much to the "fat" sideStarted doing this after I wasted a lot of thefirst culm I split.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Feb 1 19:16:55 2002 g121GsW07600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:16:55 -0600 (authenticated) Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:18:22 -0800 Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Ian, Tony ... I just start both splits at the same time, and work one side then the otherall the way down, using the Nunley-McKean method. Almost never lose astrip.Split three culms today, and though I'm getting blood all over the keyboardfromcuts and scrapes, I didn't lose a strip. Whether or not I'm going to lose myright middle finger is still debatable (just kidding) [:-)] Harry Ian Kearney wrote: Tony, I use the "cheat" method from the " best of planning form" when splittinginto thirds.-- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from caneman@clnk.com Fri Feb 1 19:18:42 2002 g121IfW07810 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:18:42 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Winston flick Dennis,Mills generally leave little feathery slivers on the edge of strips. Heis rolling the strips together to break off the feathers. Troy Miller sawme doing this when he was here... doesn't hurt the strips and will get ridof the slivers on the edges very quickly. I think Troy thought I mightbreak the strips, but did this to tip strips that were 0.036 each and theycame out fine As for the sharp edges, they don't cut your hands, or at leastnot mine! After a few hundred rods, your hands are pretty much scar tissueanyways... most cuts on my palms don't even bleed anymore. Some say it isbecause my hands have become toughened from never wearing gloves...some sayit's because I have no heart, therefore nothing to pump the blood out(usually a woman mentions this possibility)... other's say I died in one ofmy shop or fishing accidents years ago and just don't realize it, and we allknow, dead men don't bleed. Take your choice! Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from caneman@clnk.com Fri Feb 1 19:21:28 2002 g121LRW08067 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:21:28 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo I just start the both splits in the top of the strip and alternating fromone side to the other, work them down by hand... seems to work just fine.Doing it this way for ME it seems much easier to bend the cane with the handsplitting method to control the width of your splits, if you have all threestrips coming apart at once. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Ian,We do what works best for us. I have tried a couple of other ways and find using " bend the fat side" is the easiest and fastest way for me. I am sure there are other ways others are doing it. Thanks for posting your way.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Ian Kearney wrote: Tony, I use the "cheat" method from the " best of planning form" when splitting into thirds. This involves getting an old nail punch and filing the end into a wedge shape. The width of the culm at each node is measured andmarkedinto thirds. The nail punch is used to punch a split in the strip at each of the nodes on the one third mark. It is then very easy to split the stripbetween these nodes using a knife in the vice method or a screwdriver. In many cases the split in the nodes will actually join up and any wondering is limited to a short distance. Ian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Spezio" Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 6:42 AMSubject: Splitting Bamboo Thought this might help someone that has notfigured out how to split in thirds.I was splitting a culm yesterday and found to getthe most out of the culm I really needed to splitin thirds. After splitting half, half and half,the strips would be too wide if I split in halfand too narrow if I split those in half again.That means splitting in thirds. In splittingthirds, the narrow strip will have a tendency towalk to the outside giving you a splinter spearabout halfway through the split.A way to counter this is real simple. Start the1/3 rd split and work the fro or knife through thesplit for about a foot or so. Where the splitstarts, put the edge of "fat" end against a post,workbench or something solid. Grab the bambooabout half way down the length and hold it againstyour waist,Now put the pressure you need against the bamboobending the "fat" side away from you. The splitwill stay straight. If it does want to go to theoutside of the narrow strip, put some morepressure on the "fat" end and the split will moveto the "fat" side. Decrease pressure if it travelstoo much to the "fat" sideStarted doing this after I wasted a lot of thefirst culm I split.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from harms1@pa.net Fri Feb 1 19:32:24 2002 g121WNW08600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:32:23 -0600 Subject: Re: small scraper plane Reed, et. al., I have had my best luck removing the enamel using a hand-held2 1/2" x 4" cabinet scraper. Just mount the scraper in your vise and filethe edge with a mill bastard file (held at something less than 90 degrees).Curl the "high" edge with a burnisher in the usual manner. I remove the enamel at a point in the final planing when I still have about.015" to go. I prefer this method to using the Lie Nelson scraper becausethe depth of the cut remains uniform throughout the length of the strip. Ican watch the curl coming off as it happens, instead of having to inspectwhat I have done AFTER the scraper has already done its work. The thickness of the shaving, at any particular point, depends only uponuniform hand pressure, and is not regulated by the long sole of the scraperbody (which catches "highs" while riding over "lows"). Just my twocents--again... . cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: small scraper plane Reed, Have tried the glass method. However, mention glass and I think hospital,just past experiences. Safety razor blades seem to work for me. Mark Babiy from bob@downandacross.com Fri Feb 1 19:42:29 2002 g121gSW09026 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:42:28 -0600 Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the feathery edgeof the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at theseand mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say ask me!).Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Feb 1 19:48:18 2002 g121mHW09346 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:48:17 -0600 g121mF810586 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:48:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Bob,Sounds easy. As many times as you have done demos on this I have still tosee itdone.I might like that way better. Maybe you can show me it at the Sowbug.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Bob Nunley wrote: I just start the both splits in the top of the strip and alternating fromone side to the other, work them down by hand... seems to work just fine.Doing it this way for ME it seems much easier to bend the cane with thehandsplitting method to control the width of your splits, if you have all threestrips coming apart at once. Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message -----From: "Tony Spezio" Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:49 PMSubject: Re: Splitting Bamboo Ian,We do what works best for us. I have tried a couple of other ways andfind using " bend the fat side" is the easiest and fastest way for me. I am sure there are other ways others are doing it. Thanks for posting your way.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Ian Kearney wrote: Tony, I use the "cheat" method from the " best of planning form" when splitting into thirds. This involves getting an old nail punch and filing the end into a wedge shape. The width of the culm at each node is measured andmarkedinto thirds. The nail punch is used to punch a split in the strip at each of the nodes on the one third mark. It is then very easy to split the stripbetween these nodes using a knife in the vice method or a screwdriver. In many cases the split in the nodes will actually join up and any wondering is limited to a short distance. Ian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Spezio" Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 6:42 AMSubject: Splitting Bamboo Thought this might help someone that has notfigured out how to split in thirds.I was splitting a culm yesterday and found to getthe most out of the culm I really needed to splitin thirds. After splitting half, half and half,the strips would be too wide if I split in halfand too narrow if I split those in half again.That means splitting in thirds. In splittingthirds, the narrow strip will have a tendency towalk to the outside giving you a splinter spearabout halfway through the split.A way to counter this is real simple. Start the1/3 rd split and work the fro or knife through thesplit for about a foot or so. Where the splitstarts, put the edge of "fat" end against a post,workbench or something solid. Grab the bambooabout half way down the length and hold it againstyour waist,Now put the pressure you need against the bamboobending the "fat" side away from you. The splitwill stay straight. If it does want to go to theoutside of the narrow strip, put some morepressure on the "fat" end and the split will moveto the "fat" side. Decrease pressure if it travelstoo much to the "fat" sideStarted doing this after I wasted a lot of thefirst culm I split.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from TBOWDEN@halcyon.com Fri Feb 1 22:01:30 2002 g1241TW11647 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:01:29 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:01:24 -0800 Subject: Re: Different kind of line I really like the clear lines for fishing the beaches in Puget Sound. The water is very clear much of the time and the cutthroat & salmon are spooky. When I switched to the clear lines I started hooking more fish. I use a Cortland Clear Intermediate. It snarls up in the shooting basket if you don't stretch it before fishing, but it shoots through the guides easily. Tom At 07:43 AM 1/31/2002 -0800, Adam Vigil wrote: One of the lines I use and like very much is a Monic Phantom Line. It has a 10' FLOATING clear tip. The rest of the line is a mono core and super slick normal line and has no memory. It shoots like a laser. The clear tip is great when casting over spooking trout because it cast no shadow over the water. With a 12' leader you have 22' of clear line on the water. They are the only one that has floating clear line..they have a patent on it. AirFlow wishes they had it. Adam from bob@downandacross.com Fri Feb 1 22:40:01 2002 g124e0W12337 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:40:00 -0600 1 Feb 2002 23:30:35 -0500 Subject: Nice article on Tim Zietak http://www.post- gazette.com/sports/outdoors/20011223fishing1223xp7.asp from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Feb 1 23:03:04 2002 g12533W12903 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:03:04 -0600 ([209.179.148.170] helo=computer) id 16WsKL-0004mb-00; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 21:03:01 -0800 Subject: Re: Tube which end up? Understood, But I also see UPS men kicking boxes off of the trucks. And I had sent torods to a customer on the same day one arrived on time the other wasseveraldays late and actually the rod tube was crushed and the tip broken. I wonteven talk about my mail that makes it all over town except where it belongs.UPS is good but when they leave rods on peoples doorsteps it just makes meshake my head Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tube which end up? In a message dated 1/31/02 8:34:43 PM Central Standard Time,atlasc1@earthlink.net writes: PLease note, this is not an angry reply! Having worked for the USPS as well as UPS (2 years with the former, 10 with the latter) I can tell you from experience that while some stuff like youmentioned might happen (and I can tell you stories about that!) 99% of thetime, the folks at both are just too damned busy to attempt to do damage or "fool around" much. If you want to see people working fast and furiously,pop in at a UPS center some morning about 3 or 4 while they are doing thepresort and loading the trucks. I know that at one point, I was loading 6different vehicles, in stop for stop order and attempting to keep track ofhow many deliveries the driver makes. You can only be off by about 5 or 6 on each truck.Damage from stuff getting pushed off the belts? yeah! being dropped in the rush to process packages and possibly stepped on? No doubt! I was alwaysappreceative of the people who went to the trouble to pack their stuff well so we didn't have to worry about damage! We had a couple of people in ourcenter who did nothing BUT open suspected damage items and make suretheywere all right, then repack them. One crazy story. One night in the Air Hub in Louisville (This was about 20 years ago and I did not work there!) A package came through that was leaking fluid. (aside here! you would be surprised at what people send!) Leakers are ALWAYS checked, many are glass bottles and have fairly toxic stuff in them. This was about 1 or 2 AM of course, and The girl who opened the box to check the contents for damage shreeked and bolted from the building. The box had smiled at her! The contents were ....6 human heads! The leakage was thepreservative fluid that they had been packaged in. And YES it was alegitimate shipper and receiver. Two medical research labs. I don't know if UPS still allows this, or even if it was "allowed" then. I think they were labled "Medical specimins" or some such. but you get used to stuff likethat. I know I handled packages of frozen Bull semen and other wierd things I know the horror stories about packages, and sympathise. But I ALWAYS ship UPS if possible and have never had damage from them. At least notpersonally! I wish from a monitary point that I had stayed with them, but I went haring off to follow a different dream! mark visit Marks Magic Workshophttp://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Feb 2 02:17:58 2002 g128HtW15260 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 02:17:55 -0600 Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods There is a problem with refinishing rods IMHO that could be resolved though it would take a certain amount of intestinal fortitude to carry out.It's all well and good having a rod refinished and the original people involved know the history of what's happened but what about 3 hands down? I know it's heresy to say this but IMHO if the refinish is THAT good it's impossible to tell it's been refinished does it matter? But if it does a thought occurred to me.I was out off the trench fishing a couple of weeks back using crayfish for bait for mahi mahi.Out here and prob everywhere amateur rock lobster fisher persons need to clip the tails of the catch as evidence they have acknowledged they have the cray in their possession after catching it.I wonder if a VERY small mark could be incorporated as a mark of refurbishment by the more ethical would make any dif? Tony 12:41 PM 2/1/02 -0800, Darrell Lee wrote: The rod is not a fraud, it's how it's represented... i.e. if the sellerinforms the buyer that the tip was scarfed, the rod restored, etc... then itis not fraud if all work or defects were truthfully disclosed. If all thework was disclosed, the buyer can make an informed decision and then buy,not buy or reject the restored rod... It's when a seller does not disclose the defects or work done that fraudoccurs... Soooo... what you have is a fraud seller, not a fraud rod... Youcannot convict a BFR of fraud, just the seller. Intentionalmisrepresentation is fraud... I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I see it. Hey it's just like real estate or buying anything of value, let the buyerbeware... This is why some buyers prefer buying thru dealers in that whenthey receive the rod in the mail, they usually have a time period to returnthe rod if it does not meet with their expectations. Generally when you buy on auctions or ebay, there is no right to returnpolicy. This is why rods on ebay usually sell for a lot less 25-50% lessthan thru dealers. I've bought many rods on ebay that I thought was agreatbuy and it turned out to be junk... Undisclosed broken tips, delaminatedsections, a HL Leonard that was really an H-I with HL Leonard written on therod... As careful as I am, I still get taken occasionally and that has tobe factored in. It is easily worth 25-30% more to deal with a dealer that offers a returnpolicy when you are only buying 1-3 rods per year. I usually buy 20-30 rodsper month so if I get stung once in awhile, then it's not that big a deal.But if someone has their heart set on a rod and gets gypped, then he will bevery upset... Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 ==================Angling, collecting & rod making books at:http://www.vfish.net/files/acebooks7.PDF================== -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:35 AM Cc: rodSubject: Re: Fraud rods That is what I'd call it! Marty Reed Curry wrote: Marty,While many experienced collectors can detect a restored rod,sometimes the work is done so artfully that the restoration is notapparent. In this case the prospective purchaser may believe that allthe parts are original. Sometimes this is the intent of theseller/repairer...this is called fraud, is it not?Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Marty D. wrote: Every rod that is in restored condition should be considered ashaving replacement parts. I always felt that this is why restoredrods have considerably less value than original ones. I know I havemade more than a few tips for classics over the years. Marty /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Feb 2 02:25:10 2002 g128P8W15551 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 02:25:08 -0600 Subject: Re: not a dealer? then delete! Personally I wish the cold blast of air from the North all the best of luck. For all his bullshit he's a real rodmaker and if there is indeed a market for mass produced therefor mass produced priced (presumably) rods it's a hell of a lot better if they were Ackland rods than "Flying Pigeons".He'll still need to have the marketing and I do wonder how hard it'll be to sell heaps of rods to people who think impregnated rods look funny but I hope it works out. TY At 02:23 PM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote: Hi,I have my beveller fine tuned and capable of machining cane to to finished size faster than a Chinese sweat shop. The dimensional and angular accuracy is far superior to hand planed strips and the saving in wear and tear on the body is immeasurable.I have a lathe converted to cnc for ferrules a range of tooling and presses for reel seat harware and several hundred pounds of NS strip.I will be engineering rods full time in the classic tradition and a lot of them!If there are any professional dealers out there that can shift cane rods then give me a call. I might also be interested in outsourcing finishing.Terry Acklanduse hexagon@odyssee.net -- __________________________________________________________________Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Feb 2 02:25:55 2002 g128PqW15672 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 02:25:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Only as long as you just look. Once touched you KNOW! [:-)] TY At 05:44 PM 2/1/02 -0500, Brian Creek wrote: Reed, Do you consider silicone implants to still be b**bs or not? Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Reed Curry" Cc: Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:23 PMSubject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Darrell,I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However,when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. Theanswer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original.A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longer aLeonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old,since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, itis not a valid Leonard.You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, that isof interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much aPayneas one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatumemptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed...see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it wasrestored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority ofHLLeonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that werenotmade by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L.LeonardRod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... herestoresa rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue tobe just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F.PayneRod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't thevalue of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and theprovenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling youthat my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with myopinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up forsale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blowand you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by theoriginal Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel thevalue is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and passon the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has theirownperception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restoredrod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod couldbeginto look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from petermckean@netspace.net.au Sat Feb 2 05:22:57 2002 g12BMsW18225 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 05:22:55 -0600 g12BMZ244260; Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard You know, however long you discuss the pro's and con's of this subject, inthe end the deciding factor governing whether you pay $2750 for a rod ornot is whether or not you have $2750 to spare or not. The inscription thatREALLY matters is not the one on the rod, but the one one the cheque butt! I mean, I make my own rods (it's like a chicken farm here, "Cheep! Cheep!Cheep!"), and they are about all that I fish with the exception of a rod from Tony Young which I like and fish often, and an old Pape which I fishonly occasionally because it's sort of mediaeval, and really I don't likeor trust it very much. I have a Phillipson Smuggler, too, and I hate it. On the other hand, I have an acquaintance here in Launceston, a verywealthy obstsetrician who has 150 bamboo rods, including one from BobSummers. Now Don is a nice bloke, but when it comes to bamboo rods hedoesn't know shit from yellow clay, and the reason he bought the Summersrod is that (a) he had heard of him, and (b) he could afford it. That is thesame rationale for all his rods. In terms of casting, he could achieve thesame result with the speedo cable from an Edsel, so that has nothing todo with his motivation. If you pay US$15000 for a Gillum, you are not doing it because you thinkit's a great rod to fish, nor necessarily because you deeply appreciate theintrinsic charm of the marque. You are mostly doing it because you arewilling to prove that you have, by Heavens, a $14000 bigger dick than I do. I might add that you could keep $13998.50 right there in your pocket andachieve the same thing! But now that Terry is back, for dealers only, I note, with the "Canasian"rod of the Year of the Yawn, there will no doubt be a spate of enforcedretirements up there in Michigan. and if you fish it when you can, if it transports you from this bloodybunfight that we live in to the peace and quiet of trout streams, if itgives you a few moments to reflect on the good things that God has given tous all, then surely it doesn't matter whose name is on the handle, norwhat the symbols on the cheque butt signify! Cheers Peter from petermckean@netspace.net.au Sat Feb 2 05:45:34 2002 g12BjWW18754 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 05:45:33 -0600 g12BjM345837; Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods "Caveatum" is not a word; and to have any semblance of veracity, theDarrellum probably ought to be in the ablative case, which would make it"Darrello" - assuming that the declension goes "Darrellum, Darrellum,Darrellum, Darrelli, Darrello, Darrello, Darrelli, Darrelli, Darrellos,Darrellorum, Darrellis, Darrellis". Hair splitting and nit-picking, I know, but so is this Darrell baiting. I'll stop if you will.. [:-)] Peter from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Feb 2 05:54:37 2002 g12BsYW19088 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 05:54:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Peter,didn't you ever just turn up at uni hung over like the rest of us??? TY At 10:44 PM 2/2/02 +1100, Peter McKean wrote: "Caveatum" is not a word; and to have any semblance of veracity, theDarrellum probably ought to be in the ablative case, which would make it"Darrello" - assuming that the declension goes "Darrellum, Darrellum,Darrellum, Darrelli, Darrello, Darrello, Darrelli, Darrelli, Darrellos,Darrellorum, Darrellis, Darrellis". Hair splitting and nit-picking, I know, but so is this Darrell baiting. I'll stop if you will.. [:-)] Peter /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sat Feb 2 07:17:51 2002 g12DHoW19880 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 07:17:50 -0600 (authenticated) Sat, 2 Feb 2002 05:19:20 -0800 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Tony, On the few restorations I've done, I've simply signed below the originalmarkings "Restored by Harry Boyd, January 2002". Is that what you'rereferringto? Harry Tony Young wrote: There is a problem with refinishing rods IMHO that could be resolved -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat Feb 2 07:39:54 2002 g12DdrW20356 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 07:39:53 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Point taken. It's been more than 35 years since I walked with Iulius in his Gallic wars...I hadn't the faintest idea in which declension Darrell resides. For the sake of the language, I apologize for the attempt at levity. As to baiting Darrell, that was hardly my intent. Do you not find it troublesome that a rod dealer openly boasts that a rod he restores is still original? If he makes a new tip for a Payne (that was what we were addressing), it is still a Payne. We can assume that if he replaces the tip and the mid, it is still a Payne. Is it "reductio ad absurdum", to say that if he only has a Payne buttcap, Darrell will still have a Payne rod? I'm afraid not. If you want to slug this out off list, Peter, that is fine; but I'm not going to succumb simply because of my lamentable Latin grammar. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Peter McKean wrote: "Caveatum" is not a word; and to have any semblance of veracity, theDarrellum probably ought to be in the ablative case, which would make it"Darrello" - assuming that the declension goes "Darrellum, Darrellum,Darrellum, Darrelli, Darrello, Darrello, Darrelli, Darrelli, Darrellos,Darrellorum, Darrellis, Darrellis". Hair splitting and nit-picking, I know, but so is this Darrell baiting. I'll stop if you will.. [:-)] Peter from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Feb 2 07:58:56 2002 g12DwsW20757 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 07:58:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods That's exactly what I mean but it wouldn't even need to be that detailed if the person wanting the restoration done wanted the rod to look as close to original as possible. It'd only need something like an "R" or something obviously not of the original finish so anybody looking can see the mark and know.I know some would object but unless the objection was for the reason of passing the rod off as mint it's hard to see the objection as valid. A small mark is a lot less offensive to the eye than a rod that needs restoration to be fishable or resaleable unless of course it's judged the rod should just be left to age in dignity. Tony At 07:17 AM 2/2/02 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Tony, On the few restorations I've done, I've simply signed below the originalmarkings "Restored by Harry Boyd, January 2002". Is that what you're referringto? Harry Tony Young wrote: There is a problem with refinishing rods IMHO that could be resolved -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Feb 2 08:05:22 2002 g12E5KW21057 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:05:21 -0600 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Taper Spread sheet --------------6C2CD460B354F7571EE8ED97 All,I am still struggling to develop a taper spreadsheet I am happywith so I can input, save, print and share all my tapers easily, I amsick of the disorganized mess of tapers I have scattered about and thehassle it becomes to share these tapers.I have decided I want a simple layout similar to the one on theRodmakers tapers page (a title, blurb about the rod, a list ofdimensions, perhaps a form setting?, and a simple stress graph)I want to make a template, most likely in Excel, that I can justinput the dimensions and the program will auto generate the graph. Thisgot me thinking....What kind of formula am I going to have to input toget the stress curve graph?? And what information will I need to fillthat formula??Thanks,Shawn --------------6C2CD460B354F7571EE8ED97 All, developa taper spreadsheet I am happy with so I can input, save, print and shareall my tapers easily, I am sick of the disorganized mess of tapers I havescattered about and the hassle it becomes to share these tapers. to the one on the Rodmakers tapers page (a title, blurb about the rod,a list of dimensions, perhaps a form setting?, and a simple stress graph) Excel, that I can just input the dimensions and the program will auto generate to have to input to get the stress curve graph?? And what information willI need to fill that formula?? Thanks, Shawn --------------6C2CD460B354F7571EE8ED97-- from piscator@macatawa.org Sat Feb 2 08:27:42 2002 g12ERfW22558 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:27:41 -0600 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods I don't think Darrell was saying the rod was original. Just that it wasstill a Payne.----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Point taken. It's been more than 35 years since I walked with Iulius inhis Gallic wars...I hadn't the faintest idea in which declension Darrellresides. For the sake of the language, I apologize for the attempt atlevity.As to baiting Darrell, that was hardly my intent. Do you not find ittroublesome that a rod dealer openly boasts that a rod he restores isstill original? If he makes a new tip for a Payne (that was what we wereaddressing), it is still a Payne. We can assume that if he replaces thetip and the mid, it is still a Payne. Is it "reductio ad absurdum", tosay that if he only has a Payne buttcap, Darrell will still have a Paynerod? I'm afraid not.If you want to slug this out off list, Peter, that is fine; but I'm notgoing to succumb simply because of my lamentable Latin grammar. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Peter McKean wrote: "Caveatum" is not a word; and to have any semblance of veracity, theDarrellum probably ought to be in the ablative case, which would make it "Darrello" - assuming that the declension goes "Darrellum, Darrellum,Darrellum, Darrelli, Darrello, Darrello, Darrelli, Darrelli, Darrellos,Darrellorum, Darrellis, Darrellis". Hair splitting and nit-picking, I know, but so is this Darrell baiting. I'll stop if you will.. [:-)] Peter from piscator@macatawa.org Sat Feb 2 08:29:49 2002 g12ETnW22743 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:29:49 -0600 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Maybe if we repeated hit Reed's palms with a ruler he'll get smarter! ;^) ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods "Caveatum" is not a word; and to have any semblance of veracity, theDarrellum probably ought to be in the ablative case, which would make it"Darrello" - assuming that the declension goes "Darrellum, Darrellum,Darrellum, Darrelli, Darrello, Darrello, Darrelli, Darrelli, Darrellos,Darrellorum, Darrellis, Darrellis". Hair splitting and nit-picking, I know, but so is this Darrell baiting. I'll stop if you will.. [:-)] Peter from bob@downandacross.com Sat Feb 2 08:30:45 2002 g12EUiW22908 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:30:45 -0600 Sat,2 Feb 2002 09:30:38 -0500 Subject: I found him Thanks to everyone who was helpful in getting me intouch with Ian. As manyus of have had happen to ourselves, Ian was having major internet problems.Losing mail, etc... The address I had was no good, the new one is.Thanks,Bob from piscator@macatawa.org Sat Feb 2 08:32:46 2002 g12EWkW23140 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:32:46 -0600 2002 09:32:45 -0500 Subject: Fw: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Sorry, I mis-clicked. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Tony, Reed, et. al, If you can build an entire Bugatti from just an engine with a serial number and all the world calls it a Bugatti, and if there is much honor in doing a flawless restore why should I care that the car wasn't restored in theoriginal factory by the original workmen? They're dead! If the thing isbuilt with attention to detail and the correct materials who restores it is a moot point. I can't agree with Reed on this. If it's a Bob Summers rodor somebody else that's still working I'd have them do the work (if they can gete to it in a reasonable time frame)because I can. I see no merit inhaving the owner of the trademark work on the rod if the craftsmen thatbuilt the rod are gone. Refinishing rods has a long and honorable tradition. Varnish isn't forever. Repairs, whoever does them, even if they are well done, lessen the value of a fine collectors piece and return good wood to work in other cases. Knaves will always misrepresent merchandise. But as long as a seller tells me that the rod was repaired and lets me look at the thing for a couple of daysbefore they cash my check I'm happy. If you aren't an informed consumer and you get burned you are on your way to becoming informed and that's the cost of tuition in the school of hard knocks. Brian ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: "rod" Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 3:23 AMSubject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods There is a problem with refinishing rods IMHO that could be resolved though it would take a certain amount of intestinal fortitude to carry out.It's all well and good having a rod refinished and the original peopleinvolved know the history of what's happened but what about 3 hands down? I know it's heresy to say this but IMHO if the refinish is THAT good it'simpossible to tell it's been refinished does it matter? But if it does athought occurred to me.I was out off the trench fishing a couple of weeks back using crayfish for bait for mahi mahi.Out here and prob everywhere amateur rock lobster fisher persons needtoclip the tails of the catch as evidence they have acknowledged they havethe cray in their possession after catching it.I wonder if a VERY small mark could be incorporated as a mark ofrefurbishment by the more ethical would make any dif? Tony 12:41 PM 2/1/02 -0800, Darrell Lee wrote: The rod is not a fraud, it's how it's represented... i.e. if the sellerinforms the buyer that the tip was scarfed, the rod restored, etc... then it is not fraud if all work or defects were truthfully disclosed. If all the work was disclosed, the buyer can make an informed decision and then buy, not buy or reject the restored rod... It's when a seller does not disclose the defects or work done that fraud occurs... Soooo... what you have is a fraud seller, not a fraud rod... You cannot convict a BFR of fraud, just the seller. Intentionalmisrepresentation is fraud... I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I see it. Hey it's just like real estate or buying anything of value, let the buyer beware... This is why some buyers prefer buying thru dealers in that when they receive the rod in the mail, they usually have a time period to return the rod if it does not meet with their expectations. Generally when you buy on auctions or ebay, there is no right to returnpolicy. This is why rods on ebay usually sell for a lot less 25-50% less than thru dealers. I've bought many rods on ebay that I thought was a great buy and it turned out to be junk... Undisclosed broken tips, delaminated sections, a HL Leonard that was really an H-I with HL Leonard written on the rod... As careful as I am, I still get taken occasionally and that has to be factored in. It is easily worth 25-30% more to deal with a dealer that offers a return policy when you are only buying 1-3 rods per year. I usually buy 20-30 rods per month so if I get stung once in awhile, then it's not that big a deal. But if someone has their heart set on a rod and gets gypped, then he will be very upset... Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.netInfo & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 ==================Angling, collecting & rod making books at:http://www.vfish.net/files/acebooks7.PDF================== -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:35 AM Cc: rodSubject: Re: Fraud rods That is what I'd call it! Marty Reed Curry wrote: Marty,While many experienced collectors can detect a restored rod,sometimes the work is done so artfully that the restoration is notapparent. In this case the prospective purchaser may believe that all the parts are original. Sometimes this is the intent of theseller/repairer...this is called fraud, is it not?Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Marty D. wrote: Every rod that is in restored condition should be considered ashaving replacement parts. I always felt that this is why restoredrods have considerably less value than original ones. I know I havemade more than a few tips for classics over the years. Marty /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from jojo@ipa.net Sat Feb 2 08:33:05 2002 g12EX5W23249 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:33:05 -0600 helo=default) id 16X1E0-0007df-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:33:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Reed, Peter, Please slug this out on-List. Finally, we'll have a pissing contest worthyof note. Should be great fun and highly entertaining, not to mentioneducational. M-D Point taken. It's been more than 35 years since I walked with Iulius inhis Gallic wars...I hadn't the faintest idea in which declension Darrellresides. For the sake of the language, I apologize for the attempt atlevity.As to baiting Darrell, that was hardly my intent. Do you not find ittroublesome that a rod dealer openly boasts that a rod he restores isstill original? If he makes a new tip for a Payne (that was what we wereaddressing), it is still a Payne. We can assume that if he replaces thetip and the mid, it is still a Payne. Is it "reductio ad absurdum", tosay that if he only has a Payne buttcap, Darrell will still have a Paynerod? I'm afraid not.If you want to slug this out off list, Peter, that is fine; but I'm notgoing to succumb simply because of my lamentable Latin grammar. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Peter McKean wrote: "Caveatum" is not a word; and to have any semblance of veracity, theDarrellum probably ought to be in the ablative case, which would make it "Darrello" - assuming that the declension goes "Darrellum, Darrellum,Darrellum, Darrelli, Darrello, Darrello, Darrelli, Darrelli, Darrellos,Darrellorum, Darrellis, Darrellis". Hair splitting and nit-picking, I know, but so is this Darrell baiting. I'll stop if you will.. [:-)] Peter from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat Feb 2 09:01:38 2002 g12F1bW24221 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:01:37 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Fw: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Brian, Following your Bugatti illustration, a friend of mine who makes nicerods and has a drawerful of original, unused, Leonard reelseats, can make a rod approximating a 38H, stick on the appropriate reelseat, and sell it as a mint Leonard. Hmmm... ethical considerations aside, that is illegal. But that is exactly the point you come to... sliding down the slippery slope of replacing parts of a rod without marking the part as a replacement. Where does it stop? If 75% of the original Payne rod remains, is it still a Payne? Then why not 50%? Using such reasoning, you could get two or three Paynes out of every Payne rod you bought. I hope no-one thinks I'm criticizing their marketing tactics or baitingthem.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ ----- Original Message -----From: "Brian Creek" Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Tony, Reed, et. al, If you can build an entire Bugatti from just an engine with a serial number and all the world calls it a Bugatti, and if there is much honor in doing a flawless restore why should I care that the car wasn't restored in theoriginal factory by the original workmen? from bob@downandacross.com Sat Feb 2 09:11:02 2002 g12FB0W24608 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:11:01 -0600 2 Feb 2002 10:10:53 -0500 Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods I have been following this thread intently and I have a few things I havethought about. When I worked at a vintage guitar shop we really had twocategories of instrument. The high end vintage guitars were considerednon-original if they had any work done to them whatsoever. If you had anearly 1950's Fender Broadcaster and the solder attaching the volume potwasre-soldered....the guitar was not completely original. If the capacitors didnot match the ususal for that year, they were skeptical. A buyer wouldusually ask and check these things for themselves before sinking thousandson a piece. A three day inspection was always given. If you cannot tellwhether a guitar has been repaired or not, you have no right to be buyingit. If you are a dealer who refuses to open up an instrument and show thebuyer everything, you have no right selling it.Any guitar less than $1500 or so...no one really cared. Is that 1990 FenderStrat original or not? Who cares, it is just a guitar. Refinished orrepaired only really matters on the high end stuff, and the dealer shouldmake every effort to let you know what it is that is not original.Back to rods. The rod buying and selling community is not nearly as educatedas the vintage instrument market. Because bamboo is not the main streaminstrument, people do not see them as merely tools like guitarists do. Andyet, the bamboo community is so grossly undereducated that people areconstantly being ripped off. With the Internet now playing a big part, theclassic tackle dealers are still using their old tried and true methods tosell rods, and there are many new Internet dealers out there who are nowselling rods because they truly love the sport and the rods. There are manyunethical people dealing rods on eBay. When people go for the easy methodand search for info or buy a rod online, they are not getting it from Mr.Keane, Lisella, or Corsetti. In the guitar market, if you have a question,you call George Gruhn, Mandolin Brothers, or Scott Freilich or some otherreputable dealer before sinking money on a guitar. These guys have beenonline for a while. The eBAy crowd and "new jack" dealers are confusing analready uneducated crowd. If you really wanted a Payne or Leonard, wouldyoubuy it on eBay?Rod collectors seem to spend money on a rod and then like to complain abouthow they got ripped off. Blurry pictures...no return...no picture atall...THEN DON'T BUY THE ROD! Refinished is refinished. I do not think youneed to write on the rod, but if someone asks whether the rod was repairedor refinished...you should fess up. The problem is that the buyer should askevery question they can think of before sending money to the seller.Best regards,Bob ps. Darrel has always been fair with me regardless of the issue. from darrell@vFish.net Sat Feb 2 09:40:37 2002 g12FebW26063 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:40:37 -0600 Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:40:31 -0600 Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Personally, I prefer restored rods without the restorers name added to it...Can you image what a rod would look like in 200 years after 4- 6restorations? Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods That's exactly what I mean but it wouldn't even need to be that detailed ifthe person wanting the restoration done wanted the rod to look as close tooriginal as possible. It'd only need something like an "R" or somethingobviously not of the original finish so anybody looking can see the markand know.I know some would object but unless the objection was for the reason ofpassing the rod off as mint it's hard to see the objection as valid. Asmall mark is a lot less offensive to the eye than a rod that needsrestoration to be fishable or resaleable unless of course it's judged therod should just be left to age in dignity. Tony At 07:17 AM 2/2/02 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Tony, On the few restorations I've done, I've simply signed below the original markings "Restored by Harry Boyd, January 2002". Is that what you'rereferringto? Harry Tony Young wrote: There is a problem with refinishing rods IMHO that could be resolved -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Feb 2 09:48:28 2002 g12FmRW26394 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:48:27 -0600 Subject: Re: Fw: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods I have an axe I've owned for 20 years. It's had 5 handles and two heads but it's the best axe I ever owned. One oldie I know but still a good [:-)] TY At 10:04 AM 2/2/02 -0500, Reed Curry wrote: Brian,Following your Bugatti illustration, a friend of mine who makes nice rods and has a drawerful of original, unused, Leonard reelseats, can make a rod approximating a 38H, stick on the appropriate reelseat, and sell it as a mint Leonard. Hmmm... ethical considerations aside, that is illegal. But that is exactly the point you come to... sliding down the slippery slope of replacing parts of a rod without marking the part as a replacement. Where does it stop? If 75% of the original Payne rod remains, is it still a Payne? Then why not 50%? Using such reasoning, you could get two or three Paynes out of every Payne rod you bought.I hope no-one thinks I'm criticizing their marketing tactics or baiting them.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ ----- Original Message -----From: "Brian Creek" Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Tony, Reed, et. al, If you can build an entire Bugatti from just an engine with a serial number and all the world calls it a Bugatti, and if there is much honor in doing a flawless restore why should I care that the car wasn't restored in theoriginal factory by the original workmen? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Feb 2 09:50:50 2002 g12FomW26657 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:50:48 -0600 Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods But it would only need one set of restorer's (the latest) marks to tell it's not original. The restorer's themselves aren't of any importance. Tony At 07:39 AM 2/2/02 -0800, Darrell Lee wrote: Personally, I prefer restored rods without the restorers name added to it...Can you image what a rod would look like in 200 years after 4- 6restorations? Darrell -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 6:04 AM Cc: rodSubject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods That's exactly what I mean but it wouldn't even need to be that detailed ifthe person wanting the restoration done wanted the rod to look as close tooriginal as possible. It'd only need something like an "R" or somethingobviously not of the original finish so anybody looking can see the markand know.I know some would object but unless the objection was for the reason ofpassing the rod off as mint it's hard to see the objection as valid. Asmall mark is a lot less offensive to the eye than a rod that needsrestoration to be fishable or resaleable unless of course it's judged therod should just be left to age in dignity. Tony At 07:17 AM 2/2/02 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Tony, On the few restorations I've done, I've simply signed below the original markings "Restored by Harry Boyd, January 2002". Is that what you'rereferringto? Harry Tony Young wrote: There is a problem with refinishing rods IMHO that could be resolved -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from darrell@vFish.net Sat Feb 2 09:53:18 2002 g12FrHW26971 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:53:17 -0600 Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:53:16 -0600 Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods You can call me Darrelict... DAL -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Darrell, I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However, when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. The answer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original. A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longera Leonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old, since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, it is not a valid Leonard. You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, thatis of interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much a Payne as one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatum emptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it was restored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority of HL Leonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that were not made by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L. Leonard Rod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... herestores a rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to be just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. Payne Rod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't the value of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and the provenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling you that my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up for sale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blow and you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by the original Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel the value is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and pass on the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restored rod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50 years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could begin to look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from darrell@vFish.net Sat Feb 2 09:53:27 2002 g12FrQW27033 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:53:26 -0600 Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:53:15 -0600 Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Reed, I think you misunderstood my example... Whether a Payne rod was restoredbyDave Holloman of EF Payne, or Joe Blow or Me... it is still Payne rod...abeit a restored or refinished Payne rod. My example using myself was meant to illustrate the point that it doesn'tmatter to me who does the restoration... as long as the work is good. Myrestoration abilities are undoubtably less than the pros... I do not restoreany rods except the ones that I intend to keep forever (or at least a verylong time). I'd make more money flipping burgers at McDonalds than restoringrods for a fee for the amount of time I spend on a restoration. It's a laborof love that we all share. There's a few things that I do very well... but I do not claim that rodrestoration is one of those things. Personally I'd rate my restorations workvery average... I get much satisfaction when a antique or historic rod thatneeded a bit of repair and I lend it a hand to return it into a fishablerod, while trying to retain it's original looks. I know many people make a big thing that if possible a rod should berestored by the original factory... However, for example, if Joe Blowreplaced a section on one of his rods, as far as repairs, that's about asgood as it gets... However, you will still have a Joe Blow rod with areplaced section... I don't think the value is significantly affected ifanother rod maker replaced the section, compared to Joe Blow replacing thesection. Unless the workmanship was of lesser quality. Over time, 20-50-100years, the importance of who restored a rod 50 years ago will have fadedinto the blur of time... But the quality of the work is lasting. Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Point taken. It's been more than 35 years since I walked with Iulius inhis Gallic wars...I hadn't the faintest idea in which declension Darrellresides. For the sake of the language, I apologize for the attempt atlevity. As to baiting Darrell, that was hardly my intent. Do you not find ittroublesome that a rod dealer openly boasts that a rod he restores isstill original? If he makes a new tip for a Payne (that was what we wereaddressing), it is still a Payne. We can assume that if he replaces thetip and the mid, it is still a Payne. Is it "reductio ad absurdum", tosay that if he only has a Payne buttcap, Darrell will still have a Paynerod? I'm afraid not. If you want to slug this out off list, Peter, that is fine; but I'm notgoing to succumb simply because of my lamentable Latin grammar. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Peter McKean wrote: "Caveatum" is not a word; and to have any semblance of veracity, theDarrellum probably ought to be in the ablative case, which would make it"Darrello" - assuming that the declension goes "Darrellum, Darrellum,Darrellum, Darrelli, Darrello, Darrello, Darrelli, Darrelli, Darrellos,Darrellorum, Darrellis, Darrellis". Hair splitting and nit-picking, I know, but so is this Darrell baiting. I'll stop if you will.. [:-)] Peter from bob@downandacross.com Sat Feb 2 10:03:22 2002 g12G3LW27711 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:03:21 -0600 2 Feb 2002 11:03:10 -0500 Subject: RE: Taper Spread sheet Shawn:I really have enjoyed using Joe Byrd's program, especially since he addedthe ability to exchange tapers with no need for me to type them inincorrectly! It does not graph tapers, but I find that when I want graphs,it is best to do them on graph paper anyway. It gives me a better hands onfeel. I have some that I have on transparency paper. I can easily lay themover one another. Another perk to being a school teacher.No, I do not get any financial kick back on the prgram. Maybe someday?Best regards, Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 9:49 AM Subject: Taper Spread sheet All,I am still struggling to develop a taper spreadsheet I am happy withso I can input, save, print and share all my tapers easily, I am sick of thedisorganized mess of tapers I have scattered about and the hassle itbecomesto share these tapers.I have decided I want a simple layout similar to the one on theRodmakers tapers page (a title, blurb about the rod, a list of dimensions,perhaps a form setting?, and a simple stress graph)I want to make a template, most likely in Excel, that I can justinput the dimensions and the program will auto generate the graph. This gotme thinking....What kind of formula am I going to have to input to get thestress curve graph?? And what information will I need to fill that formula??Thanks,Shawn Shawn: have enjoyed using Joe Byrd's program, especially since he added the = exchange tapers with no need for me to type them in incorrectly! It does = graph tapers, but I find that when I want graphs, it is best to do them = paper anyway. It gives me a better hands on feel. I have some that I = transparency paper. I can easily lay them over one another. Another perk = being a school teacher. get any financial kick back on the prgram. Maybe =someday? regards, Bob PineoSent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 9:49 = still struggling to develop a taper spreadsheet I am = so I can input, save, print and share all my tapers easily, I am sick = disorganized mess of tapers I have scattered about and the hassle it = simple layout similar to the one on the Rodmakers tapers page (a = about the rod, a list of dimensions, perhaps a form setting?, and a = = likely in Excel, that I can just input the dimensions and the program = auto generate the graph. This got me thinking....What kind of = I going to have to input to get the stress curve graph?? And what = = = Shawn from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Feb 2 10:04:27 2002 g12G4RW27860 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:04:27 -0600 ([209.179.147.92] helo=computer) id 16X2eK-0002DA-00; Sat, 02 Feb 2002 08:04:21 -0800 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Reed, I hear what you are trying to say. As in all collectibles if you are willingto spend the big bucks you better be qualified in determining what you aregetting is what you are expecting. Or take it to someone who can determinewhat is authentic or not. In my experience if an object has been altered,modified, repair, improve etc. it is not Mint. Determining accurately whatwas done will determine if the rods price goes up or down. If you havesomething appraised by a qualified appraiser it will receive a certificatestating the grade and condition at the time. If the appraiser makes anderror or is fraudulent in his analysis of the object he can be held $accountable for the item. As for handing something down to your grandkids,if a time comes they wish to determine the value they will then need to haveit RE APPRAISED. This procedure happens all the time with all collectibles.If a rod section has been replaced a restorers mark could be place on thenew piece in a discreet location. If a rod has been refinished and butstill is intacted no mark should be placed on original parts (this woulddevalue it more) and it would be up to the dealer, buyer or appraiser todetermine if it was refinished. And to tell you the truth a Gillum, Leonard,Payne etc. that is worth thousands should never be refinished. In allcollecting circles the original condition has higher value then a restoredone. Most restorations on collectibles are done to bring up the value of lowto moderate items. Top dollar items are left as is. If the comment is I just want to fish this rod worth thousands of dollars.The response should be then "a small mark indicating the restoration isneeded". When a person buys a rod from a dealer they are also buying into hisreputation. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Point taken. It's been more than 35 years since I walked with Iulius inhis Gallic wars...I hadn't the faintest idea in which declension Darrellresides. For the sake of the language, I apologize for the attempt atlevity.As to baiting Darrell, that was hardly my intent. Do you not find ittroublesome that a rod dealer openly boasts that a rod he restores isstill original? If he makes a new tip for a Payne (that was what we wereaddressing), it is still a Payne. We can assume that if he replaces thetip and the mid, it is still a Payne. Is it "reductio ad absurdum", tosay that if he only has a Payne buttcap, Darrell will still have a Paynerod? I'm afraid not.If you want to slug this out off list, Peter, that is fine; but I'm notgoing to succumb simply because of my lamentable Latin grammar. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Peter McKean wrote: "Caveatum" is not a word; and to have any semblance of veracity, theDarrellum probably ought to be in the ablative case, which would make it "Darrello" - assuming that the declension goes "Darrellum, Darrellum,Darrellum, Darrelli, Darrello, Darrello, Darrelli, Darrelli, Darrellos,Darrellorum, Darrellis, Darrellis". Hair splitting and nit-picking, I know, but so is this Darrell baiting. I'll stop if you will.. [:-)] Peter from darrell@vFish.net Sat Feb 2 10:05:58 2002 g12G5uW28066 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:05:56 -0600 Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:05:51 -0600 Subject: Restored vs Refinished... New topic... Then it becomes a refinished rod because you have made material changes inthe marking of the rod. You guys tell me what your opinion is of the difference... Darrellict -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods But it would only need one set of restorer's (the latest) marks to tellit's not original. The restorer's themselves aren't of any importance. Tony At 07:39 AM 2/2/02 -0800, Darrell Lee wrote: Personally, I prefer restored rods without the restorers name added to it... Can you image what a rod would look like in 200 years after 4-6restorations? Darrell -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 6:04 AM Cc: rodSubject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods That's exactly what I mean but it wouldn't even need to be that detailed ifthe person wanting the restoration done wanted the rod to look as close tooriginal as possible. It'd only need something like an "R" or somethingobviously not of the original finish so anybody looking can see the markand know.I know some would object but unless the objection was for the reason ofpassing the rod off as mint it's hard to see the objection as valid. Asmall mark is a lot less offensive to the eye than a rod that needsrestoration to be fishable or resaleable unless of course it's judged therod should just be left to age in dignity. Tony At 07:17 AM 2/2/02 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Tony, On the few restorations I've done, I've simply signed below the original markings "Restored by Harry Boyd, January 2002". Is that what you'rereferringto? Harry Tony Young wrote: There is a problem with refinishing rods IMHO that could be resolved -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from canazon@mindspring.com Sat Feb 2 10:12:55 2002 g12GCsW28622 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:12:54 -0600 helo=oemcomputer) id 16X2mW-00056j-00; Sat, 02 Feb 2002 11:12:50 -0500 Subject: Re: not a dealer? then delete! i am interested in getting a few thousand rods. payne, dickerson, leonardand zimny. so as not to appear fraudulent, please mark them "special" or"special edition".mike ps - i am also looking for some part time work. i am getting good atsoaking strips. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Feb 2 10:51:28 2002 g12GpQW29529 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:51:27 -0600 Subject: Re: Restored vs Refinished... New topic... That's exactly right. Any alteration is refinished no matter who by. If the rod is refinished even by the maker it's not mint but I guess that's really splitting hairs.So you have 4 possible states of being for a rod. Mint, original, restored, retired. Mint is worth the most so is the one any fraudulent person would try to pass of if possible, restored is probably next and IMHO should have some indication as such because although in the early days of the restoration it may be understood by all it's restored but what about in 20 years time?Sure if you want you could become expert in the ins and outs of these things but I'd have thought that unless there was some reason to hide the fact the rod's been restored a mark of some kind would not degrade the rod any more than telling the person buying the rod it has been restored, the mark wouldn't need to be a flouro cross just something small indicating it's not original. If there was an objection to this addition I'd have to wonder why? Well, not really. I have some pretty firm ideas on this because this has happened to one of my rods. The details leading up to the event aren't important but a rod I sold was refinished and sold as one of mine. As far as I was concerned once it was refinished it was a blank by me and finished by the person.Now, I'm certainly not placing myself up with any makers of note and my name doesn't count for didly but if it annoys me I'm pretty sure it would them too and the rod simply isn't the same rod the maker sold once it's refinished. Tony At 08:05 AM 2/2/02 -0800, Darrell Lee wrote: Then it becomes a refinished rod because you have made material changesinthe marking of the rod. You guys tell me what your opinion is of the difference... Darrellict -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 7:55 AM Cc: rodSubject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods But it would only need one set of restorer's (the latest) marks to tellit's not original. The restorer's themselves aren't of any importance. Tony At 07:39 AM 2/2/02 -0800, Darrell Lee wrote: Personally, I prefer restored rods without the restorers name added to it... Can you image what a rod would look like in 200 years after 4-6restorations? Darrell -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 6:04 AM Cc: rodSubject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods That's exactly what I mean but it wouldn't even need to be that detailed ifthe person wanting the restoration done wanted the rod to look as closetooriginal as possible. It'd only need something like an "R" or somethingobviously not of the original finish so anybody looking can see the markand know.I know some would object but unless the objection was for the reason ofpassing the rod off as mint it's hard to see the objection as valid. Asmall mark is a lot less offensive to the eye than a rod that needsrestoration to be fishable or resaleable unless of course it's judged therod should just be left to age in dignity. Tony At 07:17 AM 2/2/02 -0600, Harry Boyd wrote: Tony, On the few restorations I've done, I've simply signed below the original markings "Restored by Harry Boyd, January 2002". Is that what you'rereferringto? Harry Tony Young wrote: There is a problem with refinishing rods IMHO that could be resolved -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from beadman@mac.com Sat Feb 2 11:04:38 2002 g12H4bW29983 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:04:37 -0600 2001)) Subject: Change of email address Because of the bankruptcy of @home.com, I'm losing the email account and web page very soon. No new web page yet, but once Comcast finishes getting their act together, I'll put one up. My new primary email address isfreaner@comcast.net and I can still be reached at my other email accounts:cfreaner@hq.nasa.govbeadman@mac.com Thanks,Claude from lblan@provide.net Sat Feb 2 12:01:08 2002 g12I18W01175 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:01:08 -0600 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:00:57 -0500 Subject: RE: Taper Spread sheet Joe's program works great for cataloging the tapers. Finding the time to putthem in is another matter. [:)] If I want to graph one, I usually go to Jerry Foster's Excel version. Imodified the graph to graph the stresses on one axis and the taper on thethe second axis. If I want to view one overlayed on another, I just hold thesheets of paper up to a light. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 11:03 AM Subject: RE: Taper Spread sheet Shawn:I really have enjoyed using Joe Byrd's program, especially since he addedthe ability to exchange tapers with no need for me to type them inincorrectly! It does not graph tapers, but I find that when I want graphs,it is best to do them on graph paper anyway. It gives me a better hands onfeel. I have some that I have on transparency paper. I can easily lay themover one another. Another perk to being a school teacher.No, I do not get any financial kick back on the prgram. Maybe someday?Best regards, Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 9:49 AM Subject: Taper Spread sheet All,I am still struggling to develop a taper spreadsheet I am happywith so I can input, save, print and share all my tapers easily, I am sickof the disorganized mess of tapers I have scattered about and the hassle itbecomes to share these tapers.I have decided I want a simple layout similar to the one on theRodmakers tapers page (a title, blurb about the rod, a list of dimensions,perhaps a form setting?, and a simple stress graph)I want to make a template, most likely in Excel, that I can justinput the dimensions and the program will auto generate the graph. This gotme thinking....What kind of formula am I going to have to input to get thestress curve graph?? And what information will I need to fill that formula??Thanks,Shawn program works great for cataloging the tapers. Finding the time to put = is another matter. :) want to graph one, I usually go to Jerry Foster's Excel version. I = graph to graph the stresses on one axis and the taper on the the second = I want to view one overlayed on another, I just hold the sheets of paper = light. Larry Blan MaulucciSent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 11:03 = bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca; = Taper Spread sheet Shawn: have enjoyed using Joe Byrd's program, especially since he added the = to exchange tapers with no need for me to type them in incorrectly! It = not graph tapers, but I find that when I want graphs, it is best to do = graph paper anyway. It gives me a better hands on feel. I have some = have on transparency paper. I can easily lay them over one another. = perk to being a school teacher. someday? regards, Bob PineoSent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 9:49 = still struggling to develop a taper spreadsheet I am = with so I can input, save, print and share all my tapers easily, I = of the disorganized mess of tapers I have scattered about and the = want a simple layout similar to the one on the Rodmakers tapers page = title, blurb about the rod, a list of dimensions, perhaps a form = template, most likely in Excel, that I can just input the dimensions = program will auto generate the graph. This got me thinking....What = = = Shawn from oakmere@carol.net Sat Feb 2 12:01:33 2002 g12I1WW01280 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:01:32 -0600 g12I1AU26835 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:01:11 -0500 Subject: RE: October 2001 Powerfibers Hi Bob: Is there a way to get to the October 2001 issue of Powerfibers? I somehowmissed downloading it. I just got the January 2002 issue and it looksexcellent. I probably missed something in the October one. Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 from tapanisalmi@hotmail.com Sat Feb 2 12:40:07 2002 g12Ie6W02387 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:40:06 -0600 Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:40:00 -0800 Sat, 02 Feb 2002 18:40:00 GMT Subject: geometry of hex rod -learning from an accident? FILETIME=[056D65E0:01C1AC19] Dear Wizards,after glueing of tip sections of the last rod I found to have turned one of the strips 60 degrees and noticed to have the power fibres inside the rod. When bending the blank I did found an asymmetry but to my surprise the turned strip was not the weakest side. Thereafter when bending some planed strips I could naturally find that there are significant differences in strength in different axis. Has anybody ever built a rod with all the six surfaces with power fibres inside the rod (as a star-like geometry)? Should it be weaker or stronger than usual? Can somebody give a theoretical or practical answer or should I try to build a star-like rod?RegardsTapani Salmi _________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com from bob@downandacross.com Sat Feb 2 13:07:38 2002 g12J7bW03093 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:07:38 -0600 Subject: RE: geometry of hex rod -learning from an accident? Dear Tapani:See the Herter's and Wise Fisherman's exceprts on Reed's fine sitehttp://www.overmywaders.comIt details some attempts to build rods inside out.Good luck, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: geometry of hex rod -learning from an accident? Dear Wizards,after glueing of tip sections of the last rod I found to have turned one ofthe strips 60 degrees and noticed to have the power fibres inside the rod.When bending the blank I did found an asymmetry but to my surprise theturned strip was not the weakest side. Thereafter when bending some planedstrips I could naturally find that there are significant differences instrength in different axis. Has anybody ever built a rod with all the sixsurfaces with power fibres inside the rod (as a star-like geometry)? Shouldit be weaker or stronger than usual? Can somebody give a theoretical orpractical answer or should I try to build a star-like rod?RegardsTapani Salmi _________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com from partrick@intrex.net Sat Feb 2 13:47:51 2002 g12JlnW04054 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:47:49 -0600 Subject: Splitting Some months ago there was a discussion concerning spliting the cane intostrips. As I remember, it seems a thin sharp blade was held in the vise andthe cane was pushed against the sharp blade with one's body while the handsmanaged and held the strips as they separated. Would someone kindly clear up this proceedure for me? Thanks... Jerry from prodcane@netscape.net Sat Feb 2 15:46:29 2002 g12LkTW06236 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:46:29 -0600 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:46:19 -0500 Sat, 02 Feb 2002 16:46:19 -0500 Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard] 7aa74c4d54d52e4a7aa74c4d54d52e4a ---------7aa74c4d54d52e4a7aa74c4d54d52e4a Ok, so some rodmakers are overcharging, right?And the derogatory reference to me looks as if I may be undercharging, oreven worse, prepared to make too many.You guys are "special"Terry -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mailaccount today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ --------- 7aa74c4d54d52e4a7aa74c4d54d52e4a Content-Type: message/rfc822;name="Forwarded Msg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition:inline; filename="Forwarded Msg" Content-Description: Forwarded Msg X-AOL-UID: 314.17890018 X-AOL-DATE: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 4:39:51 PM EasternStandard Time Return-Path: Received: from rly- Feb 2002 16:39:51 -0500 Received: from vesuve.globetrotter.net 0500 Received: from odyssee.net (ts1-41.f3082.quebectel.com QAA18209 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:39:44 -0500 2002 16:42:17 -0500 From: "T. Ackland" X-Mailer: ------5AF59AC2142B2E28454227E6" -------------- Disposition: inline Received: from iceberg.globetrotter.net g12BMsW18225 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 From: "Peter McKean" "rodmakers" References:Subject: Re: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN You know, however long youdiscuss the pro's and con's of this subject, in the end the deciding factorgoverning whether you pay $2750 for a rod or not is whether or not you have$2750 to spare or not. The inscription that REALLY matters is not the oneon the rod, but the one one the cheque butt! I mean, I make my own rods (it'slike a chicken farm here, "Cheep! Cheep! Cheep!"), and they are about all thatI fish with the exception of a rod from Tony Young which I like and fish often,and an old Pape which I fish only occasionally because it's sort of mediaeval,and really I don't like or trust it very much. I have a Phillipson Smuggler, too,and I hate it. On the other hand, I have an acquaintance here in Launceston, avery wealthy obstsetrician who has 150 bamboo rods, including one from BobSummers. Now Don is a nice bloke, but when it comes to bamboo rods hedoesn't know shit from yellow clay, and the reason he bought the Summersrod is that (a) he had heard of him, and (b) he could afford it. That is thesame rationale for all his rods. In terms of casting, he could achieve thesame result with the speedo cable from an Edsel, so that has nothing to dowith his motivation. If you pay US$15000 for a Gillum, you are not doing itbecause you think it's a great rod to fish, nor necessarily because you deeplyappreciate the intrinsic charm of the marque. You are mostly doing itbecause you are willing to prove that you have, by Heavens, a $14000 biggerdick than I do. I might add that you could keep $13998.50 right there in yourpocket and achieve the same thing! But now that Terry is back, for dealersonly, I note, with the "Canasian" rod of the Year of the Yawn, there will nodoubt be a spate of enforced retirements up there in Michigan. For Heaven'ssake, does it really matter? If you have a rod that you like, and if you fish itwhen you can, if it transports you from this bloody bunfight that we live in tothe peace and quiet of trout streams, if it gives you a few moments toreflect on the good things that God has given to us all, then surely it doesn'tmatter whose name is on the handle, nor what the symbols on the chequebutt signify! Cheers Peter -------------- 5AF59AC2142B2E28454227E6-- --------- 7aa74c4d54d52e4a7aa74c4d54d52e4a-- > from oakmere@carol.net SatFeb 2 16:12:37 2002 Received: from mx01.gvl.sys.nuvox.net 17:12:28 -0500 Message-Id:X- Sender:oakmere/pop.carol.net@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu From: "Frank W. Paul" rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Hi Folks: I just finishedreading the chapter on bamboo rods in Schwiebert's Trout, Vol. II. He hasextensive detail on the Leonard Rod Company, although it only goes throughthe date of the book's publication 1978. You folks probably have more detailon the recent history of the company. Best, Frank Frank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and Rod Seneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage,Waterville, PA; 570-753-8121 fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), ClemsonUniversity; 864-656-7471 oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 > from oakmere@carol.net Sat Feb 2 16:30:35 2002 Received: g12MUYW07610 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:30:34 17:30:24 -0500 Message-Id:X- Sender:oakmere/pop.carol.net@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu From: "Frank W. Paul" rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Hi Folks: OK here is aquestion for the list to "chew on". I have a Special Tournament Leonard rodthat I just acquired. It is a 9&1/2 footer, 3 piece, 2 tips - nothing brokenwith bamboo in excellent shape. The rod had original guides including a smallagate stripper. How would you restore it for fishing? With the original guides,etc. or with more modern guides and stripper. Of course I will use the originalsilk winding colors, reel seat, etc. What say the list? How should I mark therod after it is refinished? What is honest and dishonest in this regard? Best,Frank Frank Paul, GreyFox TroutBeck Fly and Rod Seneca, SC SummerResidence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 >Fromrextutor@yahoo.com Sat Feb 2 17:52:15 2002 Received: from g12NqEW09017 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:52:14 Received: from [12.253.1.195] by web14905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 02 Feb rextutor@yahoo.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENHere's what I learned recently Maybe some of you knew this but Leonard rodsare apparently still being made. I don't know if bevelers and templates are inuse but the Leonard name is observable. Brian J. McGrath advertises athttp://www.hlleonard.com/catalog.html. I started my bamboo rod buildingback in 1962. I worked for Orvis summers while going to college. I built myfirst rod using a planning form that Herters sold back in the 50's. In the late60's I built a milling machine with the help of Wes Jordan. I built a few rods inthe late 60's off that unit. Wes used blanks I built after He was forced out ofOrvis. I purchased the Hawes equipment in the early 70's from Elsie Haweswho was Merrits wife. This gave me the original Leonard beveller built byLoman Hawes up in Maine. The original pattern sticks went with the Haweswhen they left Leonard after HL's death. The Mills built a new beveler forLeonard under the guidence of Rubin Leonard. The beveler will cut faster andmore accurate than hand planning. Best Hal. (Harold Bacon) I really know verylittle about Leonard history but Larry Foster is an acquaintance. As Iunderstand it he was the last G.M. at Leonard before the end. He came out ofthe Leonard bankruptcy with the Leonard name and odds and ends of Leonardstuff. I assembled and wrapped a few cane rods for him during the late 80'sand early 90's. These rods were impregnated blanks but I don't know if theycame from "original" Leonard stock or were built for Larry. They wereassembled using Leonard components (marked butt caps, etc.) and as theowner of the name I believe he had the right to use them. He moved toIndiana in the early 90's and finally sold the Leonard name to a fellow whopublished a magazine if I remember correctly. The last I knew Larry was livingin Mishawaka Ind. and was working for the school system. Winston Binney ---"Frank W. Paul" wrote: Hi Folks: I just finished reading the chapter on bamboo rodsin Schwiebert's Trout,Vol. II. He has extensive detail on the Leonard RodCompany, although itonly goes through the date of the book's publication1978. You folksprobably have more detail on the recent history ofthe company. Best, Frank Frank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA;570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University;864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina;864-882-0077 __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from lblan@provide.net Sat Feb 2 20:45:23 2002 g132jNW11245 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:45:23 -0600 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:45:21 -0500 Subject: RE: H.L. Leonard] Terry, if there was anything derogatory there I missed it? Of course, I wasrather intent on that Edsel speedo cable. I might be needing one. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu prodcane@netscape.netSent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 4:46 PM Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard] Ok, so some rodmakers are overcharging, right?And the derogatory reference to me looks as if I may beundercharging, or even worse, prepared to make too many.You guys are "special"Terry -- __________________________________________________________________Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ from BambooRods@aol.com Sat Feb 2 21:37:49 2002 g133bnW11963 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:37:49 -0600 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:37:26 -0500 Subject: Is there an Update on Al Medved? a from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sat Feb 2 22:06:22 2002 g1346LW12478 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:06:22 -0600 02 Feb 2002 20:06:21 PST Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration i am not a collector but i wouldn't turn it into a 2pc6ft'r either. :>) i would use all parts that were notrotted, corroded or rusted. i would keep it as closeto original as possible. if you do plan to fish it, itdoes need to be fishable, as i see it. i'm notintending to be flip. i think you will need to make achoice. i would fish it. the maker would most likelywant you to fish it. the idea of a multithousanddollar wall hanger makes my tummy hurt. i guess as amuseum piece and to sustain the value you ought toseal it in a vacume tube. what a horrible death thatseems to me. this is my opinion. timothy --- "Frank W. Paul" wrote: Hi Folks: OK here is a question for the list to "chew on". Ihave a SpecialTournament Leonard rod that I just acquired. It is a9&1/2 footer, 3 piece,2 tips - nothing broken with bamboo in excellentshape. The rod hadoriginal guides including a small agate stripper. How would you restore it for fishing? With theoriginal guides, etc. orwith more modern guides and stripper. Of course Iwill use the originalsilk winding colors, reel seat, etc. What say thelist? How should I markthe rod after it is refinished? What is honest anddishonest in this regard? Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA;570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University;864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina;864-882-0077 ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from CALucker@aol.com Sun Feb 3 00:03:27 2002 g1363RW14027 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:03:27 -0600 Subject: Re: Winston flick In a message dated 2/1/2002 4:50:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, fquinchat@locl.net writes: The cutters Winston used at that time are the same cutters I have. The relief was not right behind the carbide so the rod strips were left with delicate little flakes of cane at the edged. I used to just flick them off one strip at a time, but Bracket's method of rolling a bunch of strips is faster.Chris Lucker from ajthramer@hotmail.com Sun Feb 3 03:00:27 2002 g1390QW16091 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 03:00:26 -0600 Sun, 3 Feb 2002 01:00:13 -0800 Sun, 03 Feb 2002 09:00:12 GMT Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration FILETIME=[30E6EC00:01C1AC91] I have an 9 1/2 ft Tournament, a 5 wt . an excellent trout rod. Don't let the length scare you off, it is fun to fish, though I don't know about flicking dries all day! Superior line control. With the very recent emphasis on baby rods under 7ft it seems that the real fishing rods of 8ft and up are being largely ignored. And as far as how to mark the rod, I would ignore some of the wackier ideas and just finish it like bamboo has been refinished india ink needed.A.J. From: "Frank W. Paul" Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - RestorationDate: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 17:42:24 - 0500 Hi Folks: OK here is a question for the list to "chew on". I have a SpecialTournament Leonard rod that I just acquired. It is a 9&1/2 footer, 3 piece,2 tips - nothing broken with bamboo in excellent shape. The rod hadoriginal guides including a small agate stripper. How would you restore it for fishing? With the original guides, etc. orwith more modern guides and stripper. Of course I will use the originalsilk winding colors, reel seat, etc. What say the list? How should I markthe rod after it is refinished? What is honest and dishonest in this regard? Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com from thogan@rochester.rr.com Sun Feb 3 05:59:57 2002 g13BxuW17357 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 05:59:56 -0600 g13Bxpg01546 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 06:59:51 -0500 Subject: Frustration/Salvation This is a two part email, the first describing a recent problem in which Iam looking to the group for explanations, the second is a description of asimple tool I have begun using for wrapping/finishing. I just finished the silk wraps of a recent rod. After the first coat ofvarnish, I placed the rod on my rod turner to dry. After about an hour, thevarnish seemed tacky enough not flow, so I put all the pieced in my dryingcabinet to expedite the drying process. I left them in there for 24 hours atabout 90 degrees. The varnish still did not feel completely dry, but I optedto apply a second coat and follow the same process. This time when openingdrying cabinets, the finish on the wraps was extrememly bumby. Almost likewarts. In fact there was a significant bubble in one of them. The finish wasso bad I had to remove all the wraps and start again. The varnish scraps(days later) is still not dry. I suspect a problem with the varnish, yet Iused it without problems about 2 months ago. Any explanations? My second topic is a tool I recently started using for wraps. It is adentist instrument picked up at a garage sale. It is about the length of apencil. The handle is round, very smooth and the tool is a sharp needle. Iuse the handle for burnishing. I use the pick for helping with the silkthreads, pulling them through loops and such. I now use the pick part forapplying varnish on the wraps. I have the rod turning and let controlledamounts of varnish slide from the pick to the wraps. Gently moving the pickacross the threads even the flow out. I have found I have very good controlwith the amount of varnish as well as the spreading. My wraps are notperfect, not as good as many I have seen, but at least I getting better, andI think this tool has helped me immensly. I encourage all dentist to give uptheir tools of pain and donate them to rodmakers of the world. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Feb 3 08:38:20 2002 g13EcIW18967 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 08:38:18 -0600 Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration AJ,I have no bounds in the respect I have for your ideas but I've got to ask why it's wacky to mark a rod, especially if it's a rod that could fetch more if it's passed off as original than it would refinished?You wouldn't be concerned if an AJ rod turned up with a tacky finish bearing your name? No need for India ink, I'm just suggesting a small mark not of the original finish but if it's seen as being better to allow some room for error just to add flavor to the market so be it.You are right about the short rods though. Tony At 09:00 AM 2/3/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: I have an 9 1/2 ft Tournament, a 5 wt . an excellent trout rod. Don't let the length scare you off, it is fun to fish, though I don't know about flicking dries all day! Superior line control. With the very recent emphasis on baby rods under 7ft it seems that the real fishing rods of 8ft and up are being largely ignored. And as far as how to mark the rod, I would ignore some of the wackier ideas and just finish it like bamboo has been refinished for the last century or so. A rewrap and revarnish calls A.J. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from swiftriverflyfishing@earthlink.net Sun Feb 3 09:26:46 2002 g13FQkW19566 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 09:26:46 -0600 id 16XOXO-0005l2-00; Sun, 03 Feb 2002 07:26:39 -0800 Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration I cannot help but feel that some of the concerns raised on this issue arebecoming rather extreme. Common sense, honesty, and practicality would begood guides. Trying to establish an unrealistic standard will just guaranteethat everyone will fall short. There is nothing honest or dishonest in restoring a rod or evenrefinishing a rod to keep it in good fishing condition. The issue of honestyenters when someone then decides to sell that rod and how it is represented.Good restorers almost always try to bring a rod back to its originalcondition using the original parts, the same color thread, etc. Sometimesthere is no choice other than using a replacement part. If that is the casethe origin of the replacement should be noted and whether it is from newstock, etc. If an exact replacement is not possible, or the owner decides touse larger guides or some such thing, then the same style or make is thenext best alternative. All of those are issues that help to preserve as muchof the original value as possible and all of those details should be notedon resale. I personally think it is silly to then mark a rod and I hategetting rods that have been so marked. I figure it is up to me to evaluatethe quality and authenticity of the restoration. The distinction between restored and refinished has been commonunderstanding for some time. Restoration clearly implies the goal ofbringing the rod back to its original condition, even if it meansreplacement parts. Refinishing implies bringing a rod back to fishablecondition without particular regard for originality. We all know that using replacement parts, whether a cane section, someother guides, etc. should be noted and communicated. To not do so isfraudulent. But there are limits. If I restore a rod I am not going to go togreat lengths to explain to a buyer that my spar varnish mixture is probablynot the same as Leonard used or that my thread diameter may be larger. The basics of this business should be well known to most of us. But, yesthere seem to be a lot of gray areas. But individuals who take advantage ofthose gray areas become known and often avoided. I know a fairly wellrespected maker/restorer who once bragged after a couple of beers that hehad made two new tips for a valuable rod and the new owner will never beable to detect them. BAD DECISION. His reputation may never recover. So,this business is kind of sell policing. As a dealer the hardest problem to deal with is when you buy a rod thathas been restored and you are not able to verify originality of parts. Ifthere are obvious clues you have to point them out. But what about thingsthat just look suspicious but are clearly within the range of possibilities andboth I and the buyer knew that. It was very well done. Very nice medium fastaction. Several months later the buyer took the rod to someone to makeanother tip and that person said that he thought the rod had been cut down from 9 to 8 1/2 feet based on the taper. Well, Thomas made lots of tapersand the variations among rods of similar length are tremendous. But, it mayhave been shortened, I do not know. The buyer however never said anythingtome but he did complain to another dealer who then brought it to myattention. So, what do we do in this business to account for this situation? Mostlywe offer inspection periods with full refunds. It is a much more practicalapproach than trying to authenticate every detail of every rod bought andsold. I can say that as a dealer I have had many more problems with buyerswho buy a rod and then basically changed their minds and tried to inventreasons for returning a rod with a full refund on the price and the shippingand insurance. I have never refused a refund on a rod even when I knew theperson was clearly lying. I once sold a George Maurer rod reported to be the prototype for one ofhis popular models (which in fact was true). I loved the rod and perhapsshould never have sold it but the first buyer called two days after he gotthe rod and wanted a full refund because when he flexed the rod he thoughhecould detect a small tick or rattle near the reel seat. I was kind ofannoyed because I knew he was making it up and after a few tense emails Iagreed to take it back but not refund the shipping and other fees. When Ipressed him he finally admitted that the rod was simply more powerful thanhe wanted as it was more a 5/6 weight than the 4/5 he was hoping for. Sincethat time I could have sold that rod more than a dozen times for two timesthe sale price. I have now come to expect that when a rod is returned to methat it is because there is another buyer out there who wants it more. Thathas never failed to be true. Well since fly fishing, cane rod making, and religion are close and hardto distinguish I hope that you are having as pleasant an early Sundaymorning as I. Rick T. ---------- From: "Frank W. Paul" Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - RestorationDate: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 5:42 PM Hi Folks: OK here is a question for the list to "chew on". I have a SpecialTournament Leonard rod that I just acquired. It is a 9&1/2 footer, 3 piece,2 tips - nothing broken with bamboo in excellent shape. The rod hadoriginal guides including a small agate stripper. How would you restore it for fishing? With the original guides, etc. orwith more modern guides and stripper. Of course I will use the originalsilk winding colors, reel seat, etc. What say the list? How should I markthe rod after it is refinished? What is honest and dishonest in this regard? Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 ---------- From: "Frank W. Paul" Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - RestorationDate: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 5:42 PM Hi Folks: OK here is a question for the list to "chew on". I have a SpecialTournament Leonard rod that I just acquired. It is a 9&1/2 footer, 3 piece,2 tips - nothing broken with bamboo in excellent shape. The rod hadoriginal guides including a small agate stripper. How would you restore it for fishing? With the original guides, etc. orwith more modern guides and stripper. Of course I will use the originalsilk winding colors, reel seat, etc. What say the list? How should I markthe rod after it is refinished? What is honest and dishonest in this regard? Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Sun Feb 3 09:48:22 2002 g13FmMW20019 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 09:48:22 -0600 sender ) Subject: Re: Frustration/Salvation Taylor, I tried a heated drying cabinet for finish once. The air in small pocketget huge and that is probably the source of the bubbles... as for the notdrying varnish, I would trash it. Get you lathe yet???? tom ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Frustration/Salvation This is a two part email, the first describing a recent problem in which Iam looking to the group for explanations, the second is a description of asimple tool I have begun using for wrapping/finishing. I just finished the silk wraps of a recent rod. After the first coat ofvarnish, I placed the rod on my rod turner to dry. After about an hour, the varnish seemed tacky enough not flow, so I put all the pieced in my dryingcabinet to expedite the drying process. I left them in there for 24 hours at about 90 degrees. The varnish still did not feel completely dry, but I opted to apply a second coat and follow the same process. This time whenopeningdrying cabinets, the finish on the wraps was extrememly bumby. Almostlikewarts. In fact there was a significant bubble in one of them. The finish was so bad I had to remove all the wraps and start again. The varnish scraps(days later) is still not dry. I suspect a problem with the varnish, yet Iused it without problems about 2 months ago. Any explanations? My second topic is a tool I recently started using for wraps. It is adentist instrument picked up at a garage sale. It is about the length of apencil. The handle is round, very smooth and the tool is a sharp needle. Iuse the handle for burnishing. I use the pick for helping with the silkthreads, pulling them through loops and such. I now use the pick part forapplying varnish on the wraps. I have the rod turning and let controlledamounts of varnish slide from the pick to the wraps. Gently moving the pick across the threads even the flow out. I have found I have very good control with the amount of varnish as well as the spreading. My wraps are notperfect, not as good as many I have seen, but at least I getting better, and I think this tool has helped me immensly. I encourage all dentist to give up their tools of pain and donate them to rodmakers of the world. from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Sun Feb 3 09:54:46 2002 g13FsjW20340 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 09:54:45 -0600 Sun, 03 Feb 2002 07:54:45 PST Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard Very well said. Like the bit about "bunfight". Bill W.--- Peter McKean wrote: You know, however long you discuss the pro's andcon's of this subject, inthe end the deciding factor governing whether youpay $2750 for a rod ornot is whether or not you have $2750 to spare ornot. The inscription thatREALLY matters is not the one on the rod, but theone one the cheque butt! I mean, I make my own rods (it's like a chicken farmhere, "Cheep! Cheep!Cheep!"), and they are about all that I fish withthe exception of a rod from Tony Young which I like and fish often, and anold Pape which I fishonly occasionally because it's sort of mediaeval,and really I don't likeor trust it very much. I have a Phillipson Smuggler,too, and I hate it. On the other hand, I have an acquaintance here in Launceston, a verywealthy obstsetrician who has 150 bamboo rods,including one from BobSummers. Now Don is a nice bloke, but when it comesto bamboo rods hedoesn't know shit from yellow clay, and the reason he bought the Summersrod is that (a) he had heard of him, and (b) hecould afford it. That is thesame rationale for all his rods. In terms ofcasting, he could achieve thesame result with the speedo cable from an Edsel, so that has nothing todo with his motivation. If you pay US$15000 for a Gillum, you are not doingit because you thinkit's a great rod to fish, nor necessarily becauseyou deeply appreciate theintrinsic charm of the marque. You are mostly doingit because you arewilling to prove that you have, by Heavens, a $14000bigger dick than I do. I might add that you could keep $13998.50 rightthere in your pocket andachieve the same thing! But now that Terry is back, for dealers only, Inote, with the "Canasian"rod of the Year of the Yawn, there will no doubt bea spate of enforcedretirements up there in Michigan. have a rod that you like,and if you fish it when you can, if it transportsyou from this bloodybunfight that we live in to the peace and quiet oftrout streams, if itgives you a few moments to reflect on the goodthings that God has given tous all, then surely it doesn't matter whose name ison the handle, norwhat the symbols on the cheque butt signify! Cheers Peter __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Feb 3 10:02:29 2002 g13G2SW20653 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:02:28 -0600 ([209.179.146.35] helo=computer) id 16XP5x-0002x2-00; Sun, 03 Feb 2002 08:02:22 -0800 , Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration Tony, With the amount of blanks AJ produces and sells I am sure there is morethenone tacky rod out there with his name on it. Many guys interested ingetting a bamboo rod can buy one of AJ's blanks and do the nylon and epoxything with one foot guides and a rubber winding check and even a graphitereelseat. He is in the buisness to make a living and does not have time toworry about the misadventures of wannabe rodmakers. Adam Vigilp.s. I wonder how much an epoxy coated, purple nylone wrapped, foam rubbergrip, fuji reelseat AJ Thramer blanked rod will go for on EBAY? LOL----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration AJ,I have no bounds in the respect I have for your ideas but I've got to askwhy it's wacky to mark a rod, especially if it's a rod that could fetchmore if it's passed off as original than it would refinished?You wouldn't be concerned if an AJ rod turned up with a tacky finishbearing your name? No need for India ink, I'm just suggesting a small marknot of the original finish but if it's seen as being better to allow someroom for error just to add flavor to the market so be it.You are right about the short rods though. Tony At 09:00 AM 2/3/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: I have an 9 1/2 ft Tournament, a 5 wt . an excellent trout rod. Don't letthe length scare you off, it is fun to fish, though I don't know aboutflicking dries all day! Superior line control. With the very recentemphasis on baby rods under 7ft it seems that the real fishing rods of 8ft and up are being largely ignored. And as far as how to mark the rod, Iwould ignore some of the wackier ideas and just finish it like bamboo hasbeen refinished for the last century or so. A rewrap and revarnish calls A.J. /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from jojo@ipa.net Sun Feb 3 10:35:41 2002 g13GZeW21385 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:35:40 -0600 helo=default) id 16XPcB-0005Q9-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 03 Feb 2002 11:35:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration Adam, Make one, do it, and get back with us on the results. ;o) M-D p.s. I wonder how much an epoxy coated, purple nylone wrapped, foamrubbergrip, fuji reelseat AJ Thramer blanked rod will go for on EBAY? LOL From: "Tony Young" AJ,I have no bounds in the respect I have for your ideas but I've got to ask why it's wacky to mark a rod, especially if it's a rod that could fetchmore if it's passed off as original than it would refinished?You wouldn't be concerned if an AJ rod turned up with a tacky finishbearing your name? No need for India ink, I'm just suggesting a small mark not of the original finish but if it's seen as being better to allow some room for error just to add flavor to the market so be it.You are right about the short rods though. Tony At 09:00 AM 2/3/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: I have an 9 1/2 ft Tournament, a 5 wt . an excellent trout rod. Don't let the length scare you off, it is fun to fish, though I don't know aboutflicking dries all day! Superior line control. With the very recentemphasis on baby rods under 7ft it seems that the real fishing rods of 8ft and up are being largely ignored. And as far as how to mark the rod, Iwould ignore some of the wackier ideas and just finish it like bamboo has been refinished for the last century or so. A rewrap and revarnish calls A.J. /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from DCURTIS@satx.rr.com Sun Feb 3 10:42:55 2002 g13GgsW21683 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:42:54 -0600 forged)) g13Ggohw004110 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:42:51 -0600 Subject: Clamps for nodeless I just noticed that www.Grizzly.com has some inexpensive spring clamps. Hasanyone used these for nodeless. I've included the URL for the clamps below.As always I have no financial interest. Thanks in advance. Darrin Curtis http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?Product_ID=16252&&User_ID=308633&St=7563&St2=-82460619&St3=88753795&DS_ID=1 from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Feb 3 12:01:20 2002 g13I1IW23518 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:01:19 -0600 rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration Rick,you've pretty much described why I'd have thought more people would prefer a small mark to indicate a refinish/restore has been done.If the rod's been refinished so it's once again able to be fished there is no issue. It's obviously not original and that's that.Restored is different and as you mention the problem doesn't appear in the first set of circumstances where the guy doing the work either explains the situation or is asked to restore by the owner but the problems with the next owner the one after that.Somewhere along the way somebody will convince himself or somebody else it's original. Now personally I don't especially care because I'll never be caught because I can't see the day I'll ever shell out for any of these rods but if there are currently 50 mint or original rod Xs out there right now with 100 restored rod X's as well but in 10 years time there are suddenly 100 mint or original rod X's somebody should be a bit concerned about what's going on if only for the collective reputation of makers. Let me put it another way. I've mentioned on list a violin maker who lives in Sydney, the one who's wife weighs the chips of wood he produces every day in the course of making his violins and feeds him accordingly (a joke). I've met him and he's one of the most down to earth blokes I've ever met. He didn't stop working once while we spoke.He says sooner or later the subject of Stradavarious (sp?) ALWAYS comesup. After that the question of if any are in Australia always follows. He likes to tell people there are at least 2,000 in Sydney alone that he himself has seen. The name's right there inside the violin.Of course, there really are none but the name are on the violins.Now, you'd have to be a sandwich short of a pick nick basket to actually buy one of the Sydney Strads but in the case of rods IMHO it seems to me that if a mark isn't included on a refurbishment using original parts and wraps etc it's almost asking for nefarious activities to take place sooner or later. The mark really only needs to be as simple as a few wraps of thread where it isn't in the original or a different colour at the winding check. I just find the response that well, if you really know your stuff you wont get done allows grey areas to remain. It's Superman's kryptonite or Achilles heel If a dealer has a rod that looks great and could pass as original or mint he'll do it. He can't do it if there is a mark though and if he does and it's ever discovered the punter has some comeback.I'm not say all will do this but who can say nobody will and as rodmakers and restorers we're the ones who can make the difference? It's great to get a high price for gear but only if it's truly worth it. If everything is highly priced that does nothing for the market or the craft in the end as our friend from the North who's name I shall not mention knows with his Canasian rods. Tony At 10:23 AM 2/3/02 -0500, swiftriverflyfishing wrote: I cannot help but feel that some of the concerns raised on this issue arebecoming rather extreme. Common sense, honesty, and practicality wouldbegood guides. Trying to establish an unrealistic standard will just guaranteethat everyone will fall short. There is nothing honest or dishonest in restoring a rod or evenrefinishing a rod to keep it in good fishing condition. The issue of honestyenters when someone then decides to sell that rod and how it isrepresented.Good restorers almost always try to bring a rod back to its originalcondition using the original parts, the same color thread, etc. Sometimesthere is no choice other than using a replacement part. If that is the casethe origin of the replacement should be noted and whether it is from newstock, etc. If an exact replacement is not possible, or the owner decides touse larger guides or some such thing, then the same style or make is thenext best alternative. All of those are issues that help to preserve as muchof the original value as possible and all of those details should be notedon resale. I personally think it is silly to then mark a rod and I hategetting rods that have been so marked. I figure it is up to me to evaluatethe quality and authenticity of the restoration. The distinction between restored and refinished has been commonunderstanding for some time. Restoration clearly implies the goal ofbringing the rod back to its original condition, even if it meansreplacement parts. Refinishing implies bringing a rod back to fishablecondition without particular regard for originality. We all know that using replacement parts, whether a cane section, someother guides, etc. should be noted and communicated. To not do so isfraudulent. But there are limits. If I restore a rod I am not going to go togreat lengths to explain to a buyer that my spar varnish mixture is probablynot the same as Leonard used or that my thread diameter may be larger. The basics of this business should be well known to most of us. But, yesthere seem to be a lot of gray areas. But individuals who take advantage ofthose gray areas become known and often avoided. I know a fairly wellrespected maker/restorer who once bragged after a couple of beers thathehad made two new tips for a valuable rod and the new owner will never beable to detect them. BAD DECISION. His reputation may never recover. So,this business is kind of sell policing. As a dealer the hardest problem to deal with is when you buy a rod thathas been restored and you are not able to verify originality of parts. Ifthere are obvious clues you have to point them out. But what about thingsthat just look suspicious but are clearly within the range of possibilities andboth I and the buyer knew that. It was very well done. Very nice mediumfastaction. Several months later the buyer took the rod to someone to makeanother tip and that person said that he thought the rod had been cut down from 9 to 8 1/2 feet based on the taper. Well, Thomas made lots of tapers and the variations among rods of similar length are tremendous. But, it mayhave been shortened, I do not know. The buyer however never said anythingtome but he did complain to another dealer who then brought it to myattention. So, what do we do in this business to account for this situation? Mostlywe offer inspection periods with full refunds. It is a much more practicalapproach than trying to authenticate every detail of every rod bought andsold. I can say that as a dealer I have had many more problems with buyerswho buy a rod and then basically changed their minds and tried to inventreasons for returning a rod with a full refund on the price and the shippingand insurance. I have never refused a refund on a rod even when I knew theperson was clearly lying. I once sold a George Maurer rod reported to be the prototype for one ofhis popular models (which in fact was true). I loved the rod and perhapsshould never have sold it but the first buyer called two days after he gotthe rod and wanted a full refund because when he flexed the rod he thoughhecould detect a small tick or rattle near the reel seat. I was kind ofannoyed because I knew he was making it up and after a few tense emails Iagreed to take it back but not refund the shipping and other fees. When Ipressed him he finally admitted that the rod was simply more powerful thanhe wanted as it was more a 5/6 weight than the 4/5 he was hoping for.Sincethat time I could have sold that rod more than a dozen times for two timesthe sale price. I have now come to expect that when a rod is returned to methat it is because there is another buyer out there who wants it more. Thathas never failed to be true. Well since fly fishing, cane rod making, and religion are close and hardto distinguish I hope that you are having as pleasant an early Sundaymorning as I. Rick T. ---------- From: "Frank W. Paul" Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - RestorationDate: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 5:42 PM Hi Folks: OK here is a question for the list to "chew on". I have a SpecialTournament Leonard rod that I just acquired. It is a 9&1/2 footer, 3piece,2 tips - nothing broken with bamboo in excellent shape. The rod hadoriginal guides including a small agate stripper. How would you restore it for fishing? With the original guides, etc. orwith more modern guides and stripper. Of course I will use the originalsilk winding colors, reel seat, etc. What say the list? How should I markthe rod after it is refinished? What is honest and dishonest in this regard? Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 ---------- From: "Frank W. Paul" Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - RestorationDate: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 5:42 PM Hi Folks: OK here is a question for the list to "chew on". I have a SpecialTournament Leonard rod that I just acquired. It is a 9&1/2 footer, 3piece,2 tips - nothing broken with bamboo in excellent shape. The rod hadoriginal guides including a small agate stripper. How would you restore it for fishing? With the original guides, etc. orwith more modern guides and stripper. Of course I will use the originalsilk winding colors, reel seat, etc. What say the list? How should I markthe rod after it is refinished? What is honest and dishonest in this regard? Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Feb 3 12:07:04 2002 g13I72W23820 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:07:02 -0600 Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration That's real shame because he has a good reputation even over here. Tony At 08:02 AM 2/3/02 -0800, Adam Vigil wrote: Tony, With the amount of blanks AJ produces and sells I am sure there is morethenone tacky rod out there with his name on it. Many guys interested ingetting a bamboo rod can buy one of AJ's blanks and do the nylon and epoxything with one foot guides and a rubber winding check and even a graphitereelseat. He is in the buisness to make a living and does not have time toworry about the misadventures of wannabe rodmakers. Adam Vigilp.s. I wonder how much an epoxy coated, purple nylone wrapped, foamrubbergrip, fuji reelseat AJ Thramer blanked rod will go for on EBAY? LOL----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 3:31 AMSubject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration AJ,I have no bounds in the respect I have for your ideas but I've got to askwhy it's wacky to mark a rod, especially if it's a rod that could fetchmore if it's passed off as original than it would refinished?You wouldn't be concerned if an AJ rod turned up with a tacky finishbearing your name? No need for India ink, I'm just suggesting a smallmarknot of the original finish but if it's seen as being better to allow someroom for error just to add flavor to the market so be it.You are right about the short rods though. Tony At 09:00 AM 2/3/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: I have an 9 1/2 ft Tournament, a 5 wt . an excellent trout rod. Don't letthe length scare you off, it is fun to fish, though I don't know aboutflicking dries all day! Superior line control. With the very recentemphasis on baby rods under 7ft it seems that the real fishing rods of 8ft and up are being largely ignored. And as far as how to mark the rod, Iwould ignore some of the wackier ideas and just finish it like bamboohasbeen refinished for the last century or so. A rewrap and revarnish calls A.J. /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Feb 3 12:19:54 2002 g13IJrW24257 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:19:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Clamps for nodeless Just wrap the scarves with thin cotton thread used to sew shirts or whatever. When it's time to get rid of the thread just plane it off when you start work on the spline.Works great. Tony At 10:42 AM 2/3/02 -0600, Darrin Curtis wrote: I just noticed that www.Grizzly.com has some inexpensive spring clamps. Hasanyone used these for nodeless. I've included the URL for the clamps below.As always I have no financial interest. Thanks in advance. Darrin Curtis http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?Product_ID=16252&&User_ID=308633&St=7563&St2=-82460619&St3=88753795&DS_ID=1 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from LambersonW@missouri.edu Sun Feb 3 12:25:35 2002 g13IPYW24616 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:25:34 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:messageSubject: RE: Clamps for nodeless Thread-Topic: Clamps for nodelessThread-Index: AcGs0hQ8Hj2ItxjFEdarVwAErEws8gADIvmI "Rodmakers List " g13IPZW24617 I've tried them. They didn't work worth a shit for me. I press the enamelside of the strips agains a piece of glass to hold them even while I apply theclamps. The liitle rotating face on those clamps had to be past the enamelsurface of the cane for them to hold steady. If I just pressed them down tothe glass like I do with my regular Pony clamps these popped off. It waspossible to get them to hold by just holding the cane with one hand andapplying the clamp with the other, but for me it is much harder to get thejoint even that way. Also, the spring on them seemed pretty weak comparedto the Pony clamps. I think Al Medved just uses little metal binder clamps made for paper clips. They are very cheap and wouldn't suffer the same problem as these. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Subject: Clamps for nodeless I just noticed that www.Grizzly.com has some inexpensive spring clamps.Hasanyone used these for nodeless. I've included the URL for the clampsbelow.As always I have no financial interest. Thanks in advance. Darrin Curtis http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?Product_ID=16252&&User_ID=308633&St=7563&St2=-82460619&St3=88753795&DS_ID=1 from lblan@provide.net Sun Feb 3 12:34:23 2002 g13IYMW24990 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:34:22 -0600 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:34:21 -0500 Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration Tony; I have to disagree. If a rod of known quality shows up with a tackyfinish, the answer is obvious, it has been refinished. If an old collectiblerod shows up with a bright poly finish, the answer is the same. If a rod is refinished well enough to pass as a mint original, so what, aslong as there is no intent to defraud? As far as someone buying one of theserods, I feel that if they are in a position to purchase collectible items,they should acquire the knowledge or hire someone who has the knowledge. Personally, if I were paying someone to "restore" a classic rod, and he werebold enough to want to mark it in any way, we would be having a longconversation. Those folks who are intent on fraud or counterfeits will not be marking anyrods or losing any sleep over it. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:32 AM rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration AJ,I have no bounds in the respect I have for your ideas but I've got to askwhy it's wacky to mark a rod, especially if it's a rod that could fetchmore if it's passed off as original than it would refinished?You wouldn't be concerned if an AJ rod turned up with a tacky finishbearing your name? No need for India ink, I'm just suggesting asmall marknot of the original finish but if it's seen as being better to allow someroom for error just to add flavor to the market so be it.You are right about the short rods though. Tony At 09:00 AM 2/3/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: I have an 9 1/2 ft Tournament, a 5 wt . an excellent trout rod. Don't let the length scare you off, it is fun to fish, though I don't know aboutflicking dries all day! Superior line control. With the very recentemphasis on baby rods under 7ft it seems that the real fishing rods of 8ft and up are being largely ignored. And as far as how to mark the rod, Iwould ignore some of the wackier ideas and just finish it like bamboo has been refinished for the last century or so. A rewrap and revarnish calls A.J. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from swiftriverflyfishing@earthlink.net Sun Feb 3 12:58:15 2002 g13IwEW25698 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:58:14 -0600 id 16XRq1-0004nh-00; Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:58:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Hi Tony - The notion of a mark may have some merit but what would itactually accomplish? It would indicate that a restoration was done but nomark could indicate what was actually done and what parts are original.Moreover, most the the mint restored rods are purchased by a dealer and out to a professional for restoration who is duty bound not to say to anyonebut the dealer what was actually done. That restorer works for the dealerwho then does or does not disclose all the details. Rick T.---------- From: Tony Young rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Leonard Rods - RestorationDate: Sun, Feb 3, 2002, 11:32 AM Rick,you've pretty much described why I'd have thought more people wouldprefer a small mark to indicate a refinish/restore has been done.If the rod's been refinished so it's once again able to be fished there is no issue. It's obviously not original and that's that.Restored is different and as you mention the problem doesn't appear in the first set of circumstances where the guy doing the work either explains the situation or is asked to restore by the owner but the problems with the next owner the one after that.Somewhere along the way somebody will convince himself or somebody else it's original. Now personally I don't especially care because I'll never be caught because I can't see the day I'll ever shell out for any of these rods but if there are currently 50 mint or original rod Xs out there right now with 100 restored rod X's as well but in 10 years time there are suddenly 100 mint or original rod X's somebody should be a bit concerned about what's going on if only for the collective reputation of makers. Let me put it another way. I've mentioned on list a violin maker who lives in Sydney, the one who's wife weighs the chips of wood he produces every day in the course of making his violins and feeds him accordingly (a joke). I've met him and he's one of the most down to earth blokes I've ever met. He didn't stop working once while we spoke.He says sooner or later the subject of Stradavarious (sp?) ALWAYS comesup. After that the question of if any are in Australia always follows. He likes to tell people there are at least 2,000 in Sydney alone that he himself has seen. The name's right there inside the violin.Of course, there really are none but the name are on the violins.Now, you'd have to be a sandwich short of a pick nick basket to actually buy one of the Sydney Strads but in the case of rods IMHO it seems to me that if a mark isn't included on a refurbishment using original parts and wraps etc it's almost asking for nefarious activities to take place sooner or later. The mark really only needs to be as simple as a few wraps of thread where it isn't in the original or a different colour at the winding check. I just find the response that well, if you really know your stuff you wont get done allows grey areas to remain. It's Superman's kryptonite or Achilles heel If a dealer has a rod that looks great and could pass as original or mint he'll do it. He can't do it if there is a mark though and if he does and it's ever discovered the punter has some comeback.I'm not say all will do this but who can say nobody will and as rodmakers and restorers we're the ones who can make the difference? It's great to get a high price for gear but only if it's truly worth it. If everything is highly priced that does nothing for the market or the craft in the end as our friend from the North who's name I shall not mention knows with his Canasian rods. Tony At 10:23 AM 2/3/02 -0500, swiftriverflyfishing wrote: I cannot help but feel that some of the concerns raised on this issue arebecoming rather extreme. Common sense, honesty, and practicality wouldbegood guides. Trying to establish an unrealistic standard will just guaranteethat everyone will fall short. There is nothing honest or dishonest in restoring a rod or evenrefinishing a rod to keep it in good fishing condition. The issue of honestyenters when someone then decides to sell that rod and how it isrepresented.Good restorers almost always try to bring a rod back to its originalcondition using the original parts, the same color thread, etc. Sometimesthere is no choice other than using a replacement part. If that is the casethe origin of the replacement should be noted and whether it is from newstock, etc. If an exact replacement is not possible, or the owner decidestouse larger guides or some such thing, then the same style or make is thenext best alternative. All of those are issues that help to preserve asmuchof the original value as possible and all of those details should be notedon resale. I personally think it is silly to then mark a rod and I hategetting rods that have been so marked. I figure it is up to me to evaluatethe quality and authenticity of the restoration. The distinction between restored and refinished has been commonunderstanding for some time. Restoration clearly implies the goal ofbringing the rod back to its original condition, even if it meansreplacement parts. Refinishing implies bringing a rod back to fishablecondition without particular regard for originality. We all know that using replacement parts, whether a cane section, someother guides, etc. should be noted and communicated. To not do so isfraudulent. But there are limits. If I restore a rod I am not going to go togreat lengths to explain to a buyer that my spar varnish mixture isprobablynot the same as Leonard used or that my thread diameter may be larger. The basics of this business should be well known to most of us. But, yesthere seem to be a lot of gray areas. But individuals who take advantageofthose gray areas become known and often avoided. I know a fairly wellrespected maker/restorer who once bragged after a couple of beers thathehad made two new tips for a valuable rod and the new owner will never beable to detect them. BAD DECISION. His reputation may never recover. So,this business is kind of sell policing. As a dealer the hardest problem to deal with is when you buy a rod thathas been restored and you are not able to verify originality of parts. Ifthere are obvious clues you have to point them out. But what about thingsthat just look suspicious but are clearly within the range of possibilities andboth I and the buyer knew that. It was very well done. Very nice mediumfastaction. Several months later the buyer took the rod to someone to makeanother tip and that person said that he thought the rod had been cutdown from 9 to 8 1/2 feet based on the taper. Well, Thomas made lots oftapers and the variations among rods of similar length are tremendous. But, itmayhave been shortened, I do not know. The buyer however never saidanything tome but he did complain to another dealer who then brought it to myattention. So, what do we do in this business to account for this situation? Mostlywe offer inspection periods with full refunds. It is a much more practicalapproach than trying to authenticate every detail of every rod bought andsold. I can say that as a dealer I have had many more problems withbuyerswho buy a rod and then basically changed their minds and tried to inventreasons for returning a rod with a full refund on the price and the shippingand insurance. I have never refused a refund on a rod even when I knewtheperson was clearly lying. I once sold a George Maurer rod reported to be the prototype for one ofhis popular models (which in fact was true). I loved the rod and perhapsshould never have sold it but the first buyer called two days after he gotthe rod and wanted a full refund because when he flexed the rod he thoughhecould detect a small tick or rattle near the reel seat. I was kind ofannoyed because I knew he was making it up and after a few tense emails Iagreed to take it back but not refund the shipping and other fees. When Ipressed him he finally admitted that the rod was simply more powerfulthanhe wanted as it was more a 5/6 weight than the 4/5 he was hoping for.Sincethat time I could have sold that rod more than a dozen times for twotimesthe sale price. I have now come to expect that when a rod is returned tomethat it is because there is another buyer out there who wants it more.Thathas never failed to be true. Well since fly fishing, cane rod making, and religion are close and hardto distinguish I hope that you are having as pleasant an early Sundaymorning as I. Rick T. ---------- From: "Frank W. Paul" Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - RestorationDate: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 5:42 PM Hi Folks: OK here is a question for the list to "chew on". I have a SpecialTournament Leonard rod that I just acquired. It is a 9&1/2 footer, 3piece,2 tips - nothing broken with bamboo in excellent shape. The rod hadoriginal guides including a small agate stripper. How would you restore it for fishing? With the original guides, etc. orwith more modern guides and stripper. Of course I will use the originalsilk winding colors, reel seat, etc. What say the list? How should I markthe rod after it is refinished? What is honest and dishonest in this regard? Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 ---------- From: "Frank W. Paul" Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - RestorationDate: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 5:42 PM Hi Folks: OK here is a question for the list to "chew on". I have a SpecialTournament Leonard rod that I just acquired. It is a 9&1/2 footer, 3piece,2 tips - nothing broken with bamboo in excellent shape. The rod hadoriginal guides including a small agate stripper. How would you restore it for fishing? With the original guides, etc. orwith more modern guides and stripper. Of course I will use the originalsilk winding colors, reel seat, etc. What say the list? How should I markthe rod after it is refinished? What is honest and dishonest in this regard? Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from swiftriverflyfishing@earthlink.net Sun Feb 3 13:16:19 2002 g13JGJW28396 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:16:19 -0600 id 16XS7b-000160-00; Sun, 03 Feb 2002 11:16:16 -0800 Subject: Re: Heddon sizes A few members of the list have asked me to post the specs on the 9 foot 13/4 F Heddon rod. These measurements are taken over the varnish andstarting from the butt end. 11" .430 (the first measurement I could take and it is over thewinding check wrap just ahead of the grip)12" .37015" .330 20 .32025 .30230 .29534 .28440 .26045 .25050 .23055 .21860 .20565 .19070 .17075 .16580 .14885 .13590 .12095 .107100 .100105 .085106.5 .080 The guides are placed as follows starting from the butt: 31, 41 3/8,50 3/4, 59 1/2, 67 3/4,75 3/8, 83, 90 7/8, 97 3/4, 103 3/8. Rick T.---------- From: "Ed Riddle" Cc: "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Heddon sizesDate: Tue, Jan 29, 2002, 8:06 PM Rick:Would you mind providing the taper and guide spacing for this rod? I'dappreciate it.Ed----- Original Message -----From: "swiftriverflyfishing" "Rodmakers" Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:28 PMSubject: Re: Heddon sizes Hi - Just a note to say that I have a 9 foot 1 3/4 F Heddon on Ebay rightnow at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1801507638 I was surprised when I measured the ferrules because I did not know that they made such a rod either. Rick T.---------- From: "Darrell Lee" Subject: RE: Heddon sizesDate: Tue, Jan 29, 2002, 5:19 PM You probably need to know the length of the rod and number of sectionstofigure that out. I unfortunately made a mistake and traded away a very scarce 1 3/4F 9ftrod... A big Heddon collector told me I was full of beans that it was a 13/4F and that the rod didn't exisit... It does... it's the only one I'veever seen in that length and taper and it casts a 4wt... It was a early rod and had the original paper label and marked as such. Alas, it went to a good home and he loves to fish it... Darrell -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 1:26 PM Subject: Re: Heddon sizes Speaking of Heddons does anybody know what size is a 1 3/4 ferrule?? Thanks Dave----- Original Message -----From: "Harry Boyd" Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:58 AMSubject: Heddon sizes Friends, Quick question... I've got a 9' Heddon #35,older style, which has size 19 butt-mid and size12 mid-tip ferrules. Might anyone knowapproximately what size rod this is? My guess isthat it's a 7/8 weight, or thereabouts. All input appreciated,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Feb 3 13:36:19 2002 g13JaIW01378 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:36:18 -0600 Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration Well,it seems nobody is much concerned that you may not be buying what youthink you are paying for or have to hire somebody as if you were buying aRembrandt.The original intent to defraud may not be there but to my way of thinking a mint Leonard has to be worth more than a restored one no matter how good the job. Tony At 01:42 PM 2/3/02 -0500, Larry Blan wrote: Tony; I have to disagree. If a rod of known quality shows up with a tackyfinish, the answer is obvious, it has been refinished. If an old collectiblerod shows up with a bright poly finish, the answer is the same. If a rod is refinished well enough to pass as a mint original, so what, aslong as there is no intent to defraud? As far as someone buying one oftheserods, I feel that if they are in a position to purchase collectible items,they should acquire the knowledge or hire someone who has the knowledge. Personally, if I were paying someone to "restore" a classic rod, and he werebold enough to want to mark it in any way, we would be having a longconversation. Those folks who are intent on fraud or counterfeits will not be marking anyrods or losing any sleep over it. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:32 AM rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration AJ,I have no bounds in the respect I have for your ideas but I've got to askwhy it's wacky to mark a rod, especially if it's a rod that could fetchmore if it's passed off as original than it would refinished?You wouldn't be concerned if an AJ rod turned up with a tacky finishbearing your name? No need for India ink, I'm just suggesting asmall marknot of the original finish but if it's seen as being better to allow someroom for error just to add flavor to the market so be it.You are right about the short rods though. Tony At 09:00 AM 2/3/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: I have an 9 1/2 ft Tournament, a 5 wt . an excellent trout rod. Don't let the length scare you off, it is fun to fish, though I don't know aboutflicking dries all day! Superior line control. With the very recentemphasis on baby rods under 7ft it seems that the real fishing rods of 8ft and up are being largely ignored. And as far as how to mark the rod, Iwould ignore some of the wackier ideas and just finish it like bamboo has been refinished for the last century or so. A rewrap and revarnish calls A.J. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from channer@frontier.net Sun Feb 3 13:50:53 2002 g13JoqW03493 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:50:52 -0600 Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration YEP!!!!!!!!!john Larry Blan wrote: Tony; I have to disagree. If a rod of known quality shows up with a tackyfinish, the answer is obvious, it has been refinished. If an old collectiblerod shows up with a bright poly finish, the answer is the same. If a rod is refinished well enough to pass as a mint original, so what, aslong as there is no intent to defraud? As far as someone buying one oftheserods, I feel that if they are in a position to purchase collectible items,they should acquire the knowledge or hire someone who has the knowledge. Personally, if I were paying someone to "restore" a classic rod, and he werebold enough to want to mark it in any way, we would be having a longconversation. Those folks who are intent on fraud or counterfeits will not be marking anyrods or losing any sleep over it. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:32 AM rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration AJ,I have no bounds in the respect I have for your ideas but I've got to askwhy it's wacky to mark a rod, especially if it's a rod that could fetchmore if it's passed off as original than it would refinished?You wouldn't be concerned if an AJ rod turned up with a tacky finishbearing your name? No need for India ink, I'm just suggesting asmall marknot of the original finish but if it's seen as being better to allow someroom for error just to add flavor to the market so be it.You are right about the short rods though. Tony At 09:00 AM 2/3/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: I have an 9 1/2 ft Tournament, a 5 wt . an excellent trout rod. Don't let the length scare you off, it is fun to fish, though I don't know aboutflicking dries all day! Superior line control. With the very recentemphasis on baby rods under 7ft it seems that the real fishing rods of 8ft and up are being largely ignored. And as far as how to mark the rod, Iwould ignore some of the wackier ideas and just finish it like bamboo has been refinished for the last century or so. A rewrap and revarnish calls A.J. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Feb 3 14:13:52 2002 g13KDoW05757 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:13:50 -0600 (authenticated) Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:15:17 -0800 Subject: Re: Clamps for nodeless Bill, I just did a dozen splices with the little Bulldog binder clamps this week,and they worked quite nicely. I do wish I had watched your demo at SRG onnodeless stuff. Some of them didn't line up quite perfectly, and I wish I hadknown about the glass trick. Also, get the medium size, not the small. Evensome of the mediums are difficult to get open wide enough to fit around buttsection sized splices. Live and learn, I guess. Harry "Lamberson, William R." wrote: I've tried them. They didn't work worth a shit for me. I press the enamelside of the strips agains a piece of glass to hold them even while I apply theclamps. From: Darrin CurtisI just noticed that www.Grizzly.com has some inexpensive spring clamps. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Feb 3 14:20:23 2002 g13KKKW06102 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:20:21 -0600 oakmere@carol.net, rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration Rick,as long as the general consensus is so what? I guess it wont do anything but I really can't see how a few wraps of thread not appearing on the original finish could really upset anybody. It's accepted the varnish, silk and restorer are not original so what will say a 3 wrap of different colour silk at the winding check for example hurt? I mean the mark could be anything but this is not permanent so it wont affect the rod it'll just show work has been done to it. As far as indicating what is different is significant but just the fact it's been restored would be a start. Also, if a dealer has sent out rods to be restored and sold as mint that is fraud and is exactly what I'm on about, like everything you can cheat it but that goes for anything you want to mention.It obviously is never going to happen though so I'll drop it all. TY At 01:55 PM 2/3/02 -0500, swiftriverflyfishing wrote: Hi Tony - The notion of a mark may have some merit but what would itactually accomplish? It would indicate that a restoration was done but nomark could indicate what was actually done and what parts are original.Moreover, most the the mint restored rods are purchased by a dealer and out to a professional for restoration who is duty bound not to say toanyonebut the dealer what was actually done. That restorer works for the dealerwho then does or does not disclose all the details. Rick T. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from DCURTIS@satx.rr.com Sun Feb 3 17:02:58 2002 g13N2vW09578 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:02:57 -0600 g13N30hw029310; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:03:00 -0600 "Rodmakers List " Subject: RE: Clamps for nodeless What size of binder clips would be the best 2" or 1 1/4"? I would think the2" might be to large? Thanks, Darrin -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Clamps for nodeless I've tried them. They didn't work worth a shit for me. I press the enamelside of the strips agains a piece of glass to hold them even while I applythe clamps. The liitle rotating face on those clamps had to be past theenamel surface of the cane for them to hold steady. If I just pressed themdown to the glass like I do with my regular Pony clamps these popped off.It was possible to get them to hold by just holding the cane with one handand applying the clamp with the other, but for me it is much harder to getthe joint even that way. Also, the spring on them seemed pretty weakcompared to the Pony clamps. I think Al Medved just uses little metal binder clamps made for paper clips.They are very cheap and wouldn't suffer the same problem as these. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Subject: Clamps for nodeless I just noticed that www.Grizzly.com has some inexpensive spring clamps.Hasanyone used these for nodeless. I've included the URL for the clampsbelow.As always I have no financial interest. Thanks in advance. Darrin Curtis http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?Product_ID=16252&&User_ID=308633&St=7563&St2=-82460619&St3=88753795&DS_ID=1 from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sun Feb 3 18:00:13 2002 g1400DW10628 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:00:13 -0600 03 Feb 2002 16:00:12 PST Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration I have a SpecialTournament Leonard rod that I just acquired. It is a 9&1/2 footer, 3 piece,2 tips - nothing broken with bamboo in excellentshape. The rod hadoriginal guides including a small agate stripper. How would you restore it for fishing........What is honest and dishonest in this regard? frank, i don't think there is anything dishonest aboutrefinishing a rod. if a person lies or tries to passsomething for what it is not then, that is dishonest. timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sun Feb 3 22:18:04 2002 g144I3W13985 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:18:03 -0600 03 Feb 2002 20:18:02 PST Subject: huh? what? ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from jojo@ipa.net Sun Feb 3 22:25:43 2002 g144PgW14265 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:25:42 -0600 helo=default) id 16XahJ-0003qx-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:25:41 -0500 Subject: Re: huh? Who farted? M-D what? ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sun Feb 3 22:46:23 2002 g144kMW16186 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:46:22 -0600 03 Feb 2002 20:46:22 PST Subject: enron - off topic http://www.miami.com/herald/special/features/barry/2002/docs/feb03.htm this is off topic but i thot dave barry's column wasgood today. timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from darrell@vFish.net Mon Feb 4 04:19:52 2002 g14AJpW23803 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 04:19:51 -0600 Mon, 4 Feb 2002 04:19:49 -0600 Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration Hey, I like purple thread! DL -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration Adam, Make one, do it, and get back with us on the results. ;o) M-D p.s. I wonder how much an epoxy coated, purple nylone wrapped, foamrubbergrip, fuji reelseat AJ Thramer blanked rod will go for on EBAY? LOL From: "Tony Young" AJ,I have no bounds in the respect I have for your ideas but I've got to ask why it's wacky to mark a rod, especially if it's a rod that could fetchmore if it's passed off as original than it would refinished?You wouldn't be concerned if an AJ rod turned up with a tacky finishbearing your name? No need for India ink, I'm just suggesting a small mark not of the original finish but if it's seen as being better to allow some room for error just to add flavor to the market so be it.You are right about the short rods though. Tony At 09:00 AM 2/3/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: I have an 9 1/2 ft Tournament, a 5 wt . an excellent trout rod. Don't let the length scare you off, it is fun to fish, though I don't know aboutflicking dries all day! Superior line control. With the very recentemphasis on baby rods under 7ft it seems that the real fishing rods of 8ft and up are being largely ignored. And as far as how to mark the rod, Iwould ignore some of the wackier ideas and just finish it like bamboo has been refinished for the last century or so. A rewrap and revarnish calls A.J. /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from darrell@vFish.net Mon Feb 4 06:01:00 2002 g14C0xW24715 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:00:59 -0600 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:00:58 -0600 Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration Mint rods get a lot more than a MR, Mint Restored rod... Examples are theGrangers, heddons, Montagues and H-I's that occasionally pop-up for salewith the printed plastic on the grip or the printed label on the grip. Thesewould be very hard to fake... i.e. a 9' Granger Special might sell for$425-475 for a Mint Restored rod and a Mint rod with the plastic on the gripit might sell for $800-1,000. The truly Mint rods are highly sought after bythe collector because there are so few in this condition. I look at the hundreds of cane rod online auctions each week and rarely do Isee mischief going on... It's usually a dopey novice seller calling a rodmint when a rod has 2 short sections and the rod has been obviously wellfished or it's the sneaky seller that uses the question mark to weasel outof truth in advertising... i.e. 7.5' 3/2 Garrison Rod? - Turns out it isa 8.5' H-I with 3 short sections... Of the thousands of rods I have seen in the hand, I've only seen 3-4outright bogus rods such as a H-I rod that was marked H.L. Leonard... Therod could never fool anyone who as ever seen 3-4 genuine Leonards... But, Isuppose a newbie who doesn't know the difference between Grampus andGarrison and perhaps has heard of Leonard, might be suckered into buyingit... The criminal who marked that rod was a moron... if I recall, it wasalso marked "Doublebuilt"... I guess he really wanted to turn that H-I intoa scarce one of a kind rod... What kills me is when a neophyte or VERY sneaky online auction selleradvertises a rod such as... "My local expert told me this rod is PROBABLY anunmarked HL Leonard worth $1000+" and it is in fact a low grade rod worth$100 or less... with bluurrry pics so that it is VERY hard to tell what theheck it really is. If this is the case, if you are really interested, besure to ask LOTS of questions, even ask for a money back guaranteebecausethe pics are blurry... I've made some excellent buys because the pics werebluuuuurrry and I asked for additional pics and found that a rod really wasa Leonard worth $1,000+ but because I was probably the only person tohoundthe seller into giving me good pics, I got it for a great price. I've contacted several sellers and informed them telling them the actualmake or model of the rod they are selling... When the seller corrects thead, then I know they are simply honest but uninformed sellers... and in thepast most of the time the seller would correct or append their ad. Butlately, when I've enlightened sellers, they have chosen to ignore the info Igive them which shows me they are crooks... I had been tempted in the pastto post in their feedback file orf their actions before ebay changed theirfeedback policy so that now you can only post feedback if you are in atransaction with the party... but I never did... If everyone who sees a bogus ad contacts the seller and informs them oftheir error, this self policing would go a long way in helping the newbiesellers and weeding out the crooks and getting more accurate info for thebuyers. So... if you don't take the time to inform sellers of their errors,then please don't complain about the bogus auction ads... There used to be a hard core group of about a dozen online buyers who wouldbid on almost every decent rod and we'd get after the sellers who weredeceptive... but most of them now have so many cane rods now that I don'tsee them bidding too much anymore... it used to be kinda fun outbidding mye-buddies... or having them outbid me... there was never any hard feelingsif i got outbid... it just showed me somebody else wanted the rod more thanme... or had more money than me... Or if I outbid them... many times I'de-chat the current high bidder to find out if the rod was a must have orwhat... and most of the time (if it was one of the regulars) they'd say, ifI was interested, please bid what you are willing to pay, and if it's morethan their bid, no biggie... There are certain rods that I don't bid onbecause I know the true collectors of that maker and I know they will alwaysbid higher than I would bid so if I bid, I'm just jacking up the price theywill pay... This is where it is a smart tactic for known bidders (to me) tocontinually be the high bidder... marking their territory so to speak. Hey, I would love to see the prices of historic/antique rods lower so Icould buy more! But free markets will do their own thing and prices willrise and fall depending on a endless multitude of factors. I will say, Ithink high quality bamboo rods are a wonderful investment (much better thanetoys or enron stock) and for a collector, it's a cool thing to have aninvestment that you can get a lifetime of enjoyment with it on the water.You cannot fish a Rembrandt... It's merely decoration to me... BFR's aresorta like a classic car... another great investment, however, you gottahave a pretty big garage to own 20 classic cars... or 100... Quality Cane rods can NEVER become worthless like stock. I consider them ahard asset like gold or real estate. Hmmm, I wonder if there are any 401kplans or SEP's that will allow for bamboo fly rod investments... Any fundmanagers out there? ;^) LOL! 'nough said. DL -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration Well,it seems nobody is much concerned that you may not be buying what youthinkyou are paying for or have to hire somebody as if you were buying aRembrandt.The original intent to defraud may not be there but to my way of thinking amint Leonard has to be worth more than a restored one no matter how goodthe job. Tony At 01:42 PM 2/3/02 -0500, Larry Blan wrote: Tony; I have to disagree. If a rod of known quality shows up with a tackyfinish, the answer is obvious, it has been refinished. If an old collectible rod shows up with a bright poly finish, the answer is the same. If a rod is refinished well enough to pass as a mint original, so what, aslong as there is no intent to defraud? As far as someone buying one of these rods, I feel that if they are in a position to purchase collectible items,they should acquire the knowledge or hire someone who has the knowledge. Personally, if I were paying someone to "restore" a classic rod, and he were bold enough to want to mark it in any way, we would be having a longconversation. Those folks who are intent on fraud or counterfeits will not be marking anyrods or losing any sleep over it. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:32 AM rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration AJ,I have no bounds in the respect I have for your ideas but I've got to ask why it's wacky to mark a rod, especially if it's a rod that could fetchmore if it's passed off as original than it would refinished?You wouldn't be concerned if an AJ rod turned up with a tacky finishbearing your name? No need for India ink, I'm just suggesting asmall marknot of the original finish but if it's seen as being better to allow some room for error just to add flavor to the market so be it.You are right about the short rods though. Tony At 09:00 AM 2/3/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: I have an 9 1/2 ft Tournament, a 5 wt . an excellent trout rod. Don't let the length scare you off, it is fun to fish, though I don't know aboutflicking dries all day! Superior line control. With the very recentemphasis on baby rods under 7ft it seems that the real fishing rods of 8ft and up are being largely ignored. And as far as how to mark the rod, Iwould ignore some of the wackier ideas and just finish it like bamboo has been refinished for the last century or so. A rewrap and revarnish calls A.J. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from darrell@vFish.net Mon Feb 4 06:26:23 2002 g14CQMW25109 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:26:23 -0600 Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:26:20 -0600 Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration Well... To restore it for fishing is probably called refinishing... Dependson the age. If it is a very early rod with 2/0 or smaller snakes and youwant bigger guides for shooting line and better performance, then you wouldbe refinishing the rod. Depending on the rod, it could hurt the value bydoing so... It is your rod and you can do as you please but I don't think a seriouscollector would refinish it. So, what to do? Use silk or sell it and getanother later era Leonard rod that you don't have to refinish to fish. Thisway you'll have a rod you can fish, you won't have to spend a lot of time ona rod that may get devalued as a result of the dozens of hours you spendrefinishing it. I've seen this many times, a well intentioned person refinishes a rod andobviously spends a lot of time on a rod and it costs him dozens of hours andhundreds of dollars... and if it's all original, another original rod, lost.An original 9.5' Leonard rod in Excellent original condition might sell for$750 or more and a refinished one might sell for $400-500. Even less if itis a hack job. Do you really want to spend a couple of weekends refinishinga rod and then losing a few hundred dollars? But, in the end it is your rodand if you don't care about the $$$ or your time then it's your rod and dowith it as you will. DL -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration I have a SpecialTournament Leonard rod that I just acquired. It is a 9&1/2 footer, 3 piece,2 tips - nothing broken with bamboo in excellentshape. The rod hadoriginal guides including a small agate stripper. How would you restore it for fishing........What is honest and dishonest in this regard? frank, i don't think there is anything dishonest aboutrefinishing a rod. if a person lies or tries to passsomething for what it is not then, that is dishonest. timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Mon Feb 4 07:07:02 2002 g14D72825792 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:07:02 -0600 g14D71XD021878 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:07:01 -0500 Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard] My guess is that the list has been too quiet lately, and the siren song of the pot stirrer has drawn TA back........... Mark At 04:46 PM 2/2/2002 -0500, you wrote: Ok, so some rodmakers are overcharging, right?And the derogatory reference to me looks as if I may be undercharging, or even worse, prepared to make too many.You guys are "special"Terry -- from JNL123141@msn.com Mon Feb 4 07:28:36 2002 g14DSZ826374 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:28:35 -0600 Mon, 4 Feb 2002 05:28:26 -0800 Subject: Restoration, fraud FILETIME=[D39DCAB0:01C1AD7F] To All,After reading about restorations the past several days, it seems to me th=at whether or not it is fraud depends on the original intent of the perso= If a Joe Bozots respectably refinishes/restores a Leonard, Garrison, Youn=g or whatever, just because it needs it or he wants to do it, that's fine=. If, years later, it ends up in his estate, it will probably be represe=nted just for what it is. It would be up to the buyer to determine origi= If Joe Bozots refinishes/restores a rod to sell without proper disclosure=then, I think, it is fraud.It always has, and always will be, Caveat Emptor. (sp) John ToAll, =After reading about restorations the past several days, it seems to = = refin=ishes/restores a Leonard, Garrison, Young or whatever, just because it ne= up in his estate, it will probably be represented just for what it is.&nb= /restores a rod to sell without proper disclosure then, I think, it is fr= John from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Mon Feb 4 07:45:53 2002 g14Djr826808 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:45:53 -0600 g14DjoXD022469 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:45:51 -0500 Subject: Re: huh? Barking spiders...... mark At 10:24 PM 2/3/2002 -0600, you wrote: Who farted? M-D From: "timothy troester" what? ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe from Jkvseafood@aol.com Mon Feb 4 08:36:55 2002 g14Eas828790 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:36:54 -0600 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:36:36 -0500 Subject: lathes has anyone used the grizzly g8688 mini metal lathe? how does it work for tooling ns seat rings and cut for ferrules i had heard negative things about this machine. i do want still want it if it is a good machine. any help appreciated, i am looking for a good machine and an inexpensive used one would be fine if any one is selling one please let me know. john from edriddle@mindspring.com Mon Feb 4 08:46:08 2002 g14Ek8829390 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:46:08 -0600 helo=oemcomputer) id 16XkNi-0007ak-00 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:46:07 -0500 Subject: Heat Gun Kit I'd like your opinion on the following item for use in softening nodes =and/or making an oven. I'm considering purchase, but the price is quite =a bit lower than others I've seen. Cummins Heat Gun Kit (includes several size nozzles) 1,000 watts. Retails for $19.99. TIA.Ed purchase, but the price is quite a bit lower than others I've =seen. Cummins Heat Gun Kit (includes several= nozzles)2 heat settings, 700* & 920*. = 2 blower settings, 400 & 500. = $19.99. TIA.Ed from rmoon@ida.net Mon Feb 4 09:09:50 2002 g14F9n800802 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:09:49 -0600 Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration Darrell Lee wrote: Mint rods get a lot more than a MR, Mint Restored rod... Examples are theGrangers, heddons, Montagues and H-I's that occasionally pop-up for salewith the printed plastic on the grip or the printed label on the grip. Thesewould be very hard to fake... i.e. a 9' Granger Special might sell for$425-475 for a Mint Restored rod and a Mint rod with the plastic on thegripit might sell for $800-1,000. The truly Mint rods are highly sought after bythe collector because there are so few in this condition. I look at the hundreds of cane rod online auctions each week and rarely do Isee mischief going on... It's usually a dopey novice seller calling a rodmint when a rod has 2 short sections and the rod has been obviously wellfished or it's the sneaky seller that uses the question mark to weasel outof truth in advertising... i.e. 7.5' 3/2 Garrison Rod? - Turns out it isa 8.5' H-I with 3 short sections... Of the thousands of rods I have seen in the hand, I've only seen 3-4outright bogus rods such as a H-I rod that was marked H.L. Leonard... Therod could never fool anyone who as ever seen 3-4 genuine Leonards... But,Isuppose a newbie who doesn't know the difference between Grampus andGarrison and perhaps has heard of Leonard, might be suckered into buyingit... The criminal who marked that rod was a moron... if I recall, it wasalso marked "Doublebuilt"... I guess he really wanted to turn that H-I intoa scarce one of a kind rod... What kills me is when a neophyte or VERY sneaky online auction selleradvertises a rod such as... "My local expert told me this rod is PROBABLYanunmarked HL Leonard worth $1000+" and it is in fact a low grade rod worth$100 or less... with bluurrry pics so that it is VERY hard to tell what theheck it really is. If this is the case, if you are really interested, besure to ask LOTS of questions, even ask for a money back guaranteebecausethe pics are blurry... I've made some excellent buys because the pics werebluuuuurrry and I asked for additional pics and found that a rod really wasa Leonard worth $1,000+ but because I was probably the only person tohoundthe seller into giving me good pics, I got it for a great price. I've contacted several sellers and informed them telling them the actualmake or model of the rod they are selling... When the seller corrects thead, then I know they are simply honest but uninformed sellers... and in thepast most of the time the seller would correct or append their ad. Butlately, when I've enlightened sellers, they have chosen to ignore the info Igive them which shows me they are crooks... I had been tempted in thepastto post in their feedback file orf their actions before ebay changed theirfeedback policy so that now you can only post feedback if you are in atransaction with the party... but I never did... If everyone who sees a bogus ad contacts the seller and informs them oftheir error, this self policing would go a long way in helping the newbiesellers and weeding out the crooks and getting more accurate info for thebuyers. So... if you don't take the time to inform sellers of their errors,then please don't complain about the bogus auction ads... There used to be a hard core group of about a dozen online buyers whowouldbid on almost every decent rod and we'd get after the sellers who weredeceptive... but most of them now have so many cane rods now that I don'tsee them bidding too much anymore... it used to be kinda fun outbidding mye-buddies... or having them outbid me... there was never any hard feelingsif i got outbid... it just showed me somebody else wanted the rod more thanme... or had more money than me... Or if I outbid them... many times I'de-chat the current high bidder to find out if the rod was a must have orwhat... and most of the time (if it was one of the regulars) they'd say, ifI was interested, please bid what you are willing to pay, and if it's morethan their bid, no biggie... There are certain rods that I don't bid onbecause I know the true collectors of that maker and I know they willalwaysbid higher than I would bid so if I bid, I'm just jacking up the price theywill pay... This is where it is a smart tactic for known bidders (to me) tocontinually be the high bidder... marking their territory so to speak. Hey, I would love to see the prices of historic/antique rods lower so Icould buy more! But free markets will do their own thing and prices willrise and fall depending on a endless multitude of factors. I will say, Ithink high quality bamboo rods are a wonderful investment (much betterthanetoys or enron stock) and for a collector, it's a cool thing to have aninvestment that you can get a lifetime of enjoyment with it on the water.You cannot fish a Rembrandt... It's merely decoration to me... BFR's aresorta like a classic car... another great investment, however, you gottahave a pretty big garage to own 20 classic cars... or 100... Quality Cane rods can NEVER become worthless like stock. I consider themahard asset like gold or real estate. Hmmm, I wonder if there are any 401kplans or SEP's that will allow for bamboo fly rod investments... Any fundmanagers out there? ;^) LOL! 'nough said. DL -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 10:51 AM Subject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration Well,it seems nobody is much concerned that you may not be buying what youthinkyou are paying for or have to hire somebody as if you were buying aRembrandt.The original intent to defraud may not be there but to my way of thinking amint Leonard has to be worth more than a restored one no matter howgoodthe job. Tony At 01:42 PM 2/3/02 -0500, Larry Blan wrote: Tony; I have to disagree. If a rod of known quality shows up with a tackyfinish, the answer is obvious, it has been refinished. If an old collectible rod shows up with a bright poly finish, the answer is the same. If a rod is refinished well enough to pass as a mint original, so what, aslong as there is no intent to defraud? As far as someone buying one of these rods, I feel that if they are in a position to purchase collectible items,they should acquire the knowledge or hire someone who has theknowledge. Personally, if I were paying someone to "restore" a classic rod, and he were bold enough to want to mark it in any way, we would be having a longconversation. Those folks who are intent on fraud or counterfeits will not be markinganyrods or losing any sleep over it. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:32 AM rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Leonard Rods - Restoration AJ,I have no bounds in the respect I have for your ideas but I've got to ask why it's wacky to mark a rod, especially if it's a rod that could fetchmore if it's passed off as original than it would refinished?You wouldn't be concerned if an AJ rod turned up with a tacky finishbearing your name? No need for India ink, I'm just suggesting asmall marknot of the original finish but if it's seen as being better to allow some room for error just to add flavor to the market so be it.You are right about the short rods though. Tony At 09:00 AM 2/3/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: I have an 9 1/2 ft Tournament, a 5 wt . an excellent trout rod. Don't let the length scare you off, it is fun to fish, though I don't know aboutflicking dries all day! Superior line control. With the very recentemphasis on baby rods under 7ft it seems that the real fishing rods of 8ft and up are being largely ignored. And as far as how to mark the rod, Iwould ignore some of the wackier ideas and just finish it like bamboo has been refinished for the last century or so. A rewrap and revarnish calls A.J. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from rmoon@ida.net Mon Feb 4 09:14:17 2002 g14FEG801197 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:14:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration I apologize for sending the empty message. I hit the wrong button. My replytoDarrell and others on this issue follows. Ralph Darrell Interesting perspective. However, even well meaning persons cancontribute to such misrepresentation. I once wrote an article on a man I considered the first fly fisherman in theinter mountain west. Wilford Wood ruff who fly fished at Fort Bridger in1847.While I was Curator of the IFFC in West Yellowstone, I attended a conventionofmuseum curators. There I was talking with a curator from the LDS ChurchHistoryMuseum, and I mentioned the information I had found on Woodruff. She toldmethat the Church museum had one of Woodruff's rods on display. Nowknowing thathe had had over a hundred fishing rods, and I had been unable to run down anyofthem, I was excited beyond belief. I made a visit to the museum and Lo!therewas the display. The rod was a HI, and had been made some thirty yearsafterWood ruff's death. I wrote to the museum telling them that the display wasinerror. I got an answer that the descendants of Woodruff had donated therodtelling the museum that it was Wilfford's, and the museum did not wish toalienate the family. If you are going to the Winter Olympics this week, look itup. Ralph from MasjC1@aol.com Mon Feb 4 09:58:33 2002 g14FwW803600 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:58:32 -0600 Subject: Re: Clamps for nodeless RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu Guys, I have been using the medium Accu binder clamps and they seem to workfine. I use three per splice. I place the first in the middle and make sure that the alignment is correct, a glass plate or other flat surface can help, and then place one on each side. I then feel the splice with a finger to make sure all is OK. If not, I make any required adjustments. These clamps are cheap and can be bought at any stationary/office supply store. The house brand isoften less expensive and works just as well as the name brand. Mark Cole Guys, I have been using the medium Accu binder clamps and they seem towork fine. I use three per splice. I place the first in the middle and make surethat the alignment is correct, a glass plate or other flat surface can help,and then place one on each side. I then feel the splice with a finger to makesure all is OK. If not, I make any required adjustments. These clamps arecheap and can be bought at any stationary/office supply store. The housebrand is often less expensive and works just as well as the name brand. Mark Cole from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Mon Feb 4 10:57:34 2002 g14GvX806704 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:57:33 -0600 KAA24500; IAA24451; g14Gveb13634; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:57:44 -0800 Subject: RE: small scraper plane try micro scope glass slides, cheap and sharp and straight and come inquantity. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: small scraper plane Mark, The cheapest solution, and no sharpening required, is window glass.A glass cutter, a straightedge and some glass gives you plenty of disposable scrapers. Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Mark Babiy wrote: Ken, I got one from Woodcraft. I would agree with Bill. It is not that greator accurate, but I do use it to take glue off a rod. The throat is alittle too small and gets easily jammed up with shavings. Its not a badtool, but I think that I would rather put the $30 towards the Lie Neisonscraper plane. I have used all kinds of things to scrape and lately havebeen using a razor blades with success. Lee Valley also sells these tinylittle scrapper blades that work well. Mark . -- > from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Mon Feb 4 11:11:58 2002 Received: with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 4 Feb 200209:12:11 -0800 Message-ID:From: "Coffey, Patrick W" , rcurry@ttlc.net, darrell@vFish.net Cc:rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN good one, their b**bs butthey real genuine silicone ones. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident RepairPlanning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----- darrell@vFish.net Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Restoredrods are not necessarily Fraud rods Reed, Do you consider silicone implantsto still be b**bs or not? Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Reed Curry" Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:23 PMSubject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Darrell,I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However,when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. Theanswer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original.A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longer aLeonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old,since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, itis not a valid Leonard.You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, that isof interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much a Payneas one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatumemptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed...see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it wasrestored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority ofHLLeonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that werenotmade by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L.LeonardRod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... herestoresa rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue tobe just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. PayneRod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't thevalue of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and theprovenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling youthat my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with myopinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up forsale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blowand you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by theoriginal Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel thevalue is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and passon the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has their ownperception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restoredrod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could beginto look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from saweiss@flash.net Mon Feb 4 11:19:59 2002 g14HJw808066 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:19:58 -0600 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:19:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Heat Gun Kit Organization: Prodigy Internet Ed,The 2-heat gun will probably be fine for heating nodes and general shop =use. I have a similar one. You can adjust the heat on the nodes by =varying the distance from the nozzle. You should have a fan shaped =nozzle adapter.It's not as good for the oven because it's more difficult to regulate =temperatures. You have to turn it off and on to keep temperatures =steady. I use a Sears Industrial type for my oven because it has =variable heat control and requires less fiddling.Steve I'd like your opinion on the following item for use in softening nodes =and/or making an oven. I'm considering purchase, but the price is quite =a bit lower than others I've seen. Cummins Heat Gun Kit (includes several size nozzles) 1,000 watts. Retails for $19.99. TIA.Ed Ed,The 2-heat gun will probably be fine for heating nodes and general = use. I have a similar one. You can adjust the heat on the nodes by = distance from the nozzle. You should have a fan shaped nozzle =adapter.It's not as good for the oven because it's more difficult to = temperatures. You have to turn it off and on to keep temperatures = and requires less fiddling.Steve I'd like your opinion on the = considering purchase, but the price is quite a bit lower than others = seen. Cummins Heat Gun Kit (includes = nozzles)2 heat settings, 700* & 920*. = 2 blower settings, 400 & 500. = $19.99. TIA.Ed from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Mon Feb 4 11:25:54 2002 g14HPr808523 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:25:53 -0600 JAA22763; JAA18772; g14HPwb10495; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:26:04 -0800 fquinchat@locl.net,Rodmakers Subject: RE: Winston flick It would be great to have that length chart he used to mark where to cut fornode spacing. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the feathery edgeof the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at theseand mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say ask me!).Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Mon Feb 4 11:57:47 2002 g14Hvk810306 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:57:46 -0600 JAA23550; JAA12508; g14Hvwb11354; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:58:04 -0800 Rodmakers discussion group Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods and they are deadly, read this. http://entertainment.yahoo.com/entnews/wwn/20020116/101119320009.html Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Hmmm, I consider them to be expensive store-bought, plastic imitations -- sort of like graphite rods. M-D Reed, Do you consider silicone implants to still be b**bs or not? Brian From: "Reed Curry" Darrell,I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However,when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. Theanswer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original.A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longer aLeonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old,since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, itis not a valid Leonard.You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, that is of interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much aPayneas one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatumemptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it wasrestored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority of HL Leonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that were not made by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L. Leonard Rod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... he restores a rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to be just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F.PayneRod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't thevalue of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and theprovenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling youthat my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up forsale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blowand you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by theoriginal Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel thevalue is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and passon the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restoredrod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50 years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could begin to look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from GBuckley@aapg.org Mon Feb 4 12:57:13 2002 g14IvD812929 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:57:13 -0600 4 Feb 02 13:01:52 -0600 0600 4 Feb 02 13:01:10 -0600User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh- Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Suppose (to bring things full circle) there's a new significance to"stripper guides" From: "Coffey, Patrick W" Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:57:33 -0800 Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods and they are deadly, read this. http://entertainment.yahoo.com/entnews/wwn/20020116/101119320009.html Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Hmmm, I consider them to be expensive store-bought, plastic imitations -- sort of like graphite rods. M-D From: "Brian Creek" Reed, Do you consider silicone implants to still be b**bs or not? Brian From: "Reed Curry" Darrell,I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However,when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. Theanswer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original.A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longer aLeonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old,since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, itis not a valid Leonard.You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, that is of interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much aPayneas one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatumemptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it wasrestored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority of HL Leonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that were not made by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L. Leonard Rod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... he restores a rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to be just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F.PayneRod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't thevalue of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and theprovenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling youthat my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up forsale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blowand you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by theoriginal Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel thevalue is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and passon the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restoredrod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50 years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could begin to look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from Kengorific@aol.com Mon Feb 4 14:04:23 2002 g14K4N816104 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 14:04:23 -0600 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:04:02 -0500 Subject: old silk lines I would like to buy an old silk line that is in need of reconditoning. I can't afford the purchase of a new one, but would like to try reconditioning an old sticky one. Most of my rods throw a 3, 4 or 5 wt double taper plastic line, a silk line that would work on any of these would be a good winter project for me. Thanks, Ken from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 14:56:11 2002 g14Ku9818622 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 14:56:10 -0600 04 Feb 2002 12:56:09 PST Subject: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern bob appleman ,ron barch , donald m beaudoin,ronald dreyer , richard hutton ,ron kanwisher , dick mcdaniel ,chris mehuys , bret reiter,jim roth , thomas yocom At the time George Harvey began teaching acollege-accredited course in angling at Penn State,there were rumblings of academic disapproval from thefaculty, some of whose members felt that the Committeon Curriculum should draw the line somewhere.However, George tells me that this resentment hasalmost completely didappeared, and flared up onlybriefly when one of his students, asked in an EnglishLit examination to list three contemporaries ofShakespeare, wrote down Heddon, Pflueger and South Bend. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, - "If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 15:28:06 2002 g14LS6824110 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:28:06 -0600 04 Feb 2002 13:28:05 PST Subject: RE: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern troy, i did not know george. this was a quote from abook by ed zern. my brother knew him. my brother phd'dat penn state. timothy --- "Miller, Troy" wrote: TIMOTHY!! I didn't know that you know George! Where do you live? TAM -----Original Message-----From: timothy troester Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:56 PM beaudoin; ronalddreyer; richard hutton; ron kanwisher; dickmcdaniel; chris mehuys; bretreiter; jim roth; thomas yocomSubject: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern At the time George Harvey began teaching acollege-accredited course in angling at Penn State,there were rumblings of academic disapproval fromthefaculty, some of whose members felt that theCommitteon Curriculum should draw the line somewhere.However, George tells me that this resentmenthasalmost completely didappeared, and flared up onlybriefly when one of his students, asked in anEnglishLit examination to list three contemporaries ofShakespeare, wrote down Heddon, Pflueger and SouthBend. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Mon Feb 4 15:42:47 2002 g14Lgl825245 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:42:47 -0600 by direct-pest.com [208.27.26.103] for ; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:42:14 -0500 , "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Winston flick I agree Patrick, it would be nice to have a chart like that. Anyone got one? Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Winston flick It would be great to have that length chart he used to mark where to cut for node spacing. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the featheryedgeof the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at theseand mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say ask me!).Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Feb 4 16:05:08 2002 g14M57827035 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:05:07 -0600 g14M51825040; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:05:01 -0600 Subject: Re: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern Timothy,I also thought you might of know George from your post .He is a great guy. I have tied at a number of shows thathe was giving a presentation on tying flies. We have alsotraded flies. I have a shadow box with three of his dryflies and a signed card hanging in my tying room.Troy, will be glad to show them to you when come up forthe Sowbug.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com timothy troester wrote: troy, i did not know george. this was a quote from abook by ed zern. my brother knew him. my brother phd'dat penn state. timothy --- "Miller, Troy" wrote: TIMOTHY!! I didn't know that you know George!Where do you live? TAM -----Original Message-----From: timothy troester Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:56 PM beaudoin; ronalddreyer; richard hutton; ron kanwisher; dickmcdaniel; chris mehuys; bretreiter; jim roth; thomas yocomSubject: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern At the time George Harvey began teaching acollege-accredited course in angling at Penn State,there were rumblings of academic disapproval fromthefaculty, some of whose members felt that theCommitteon Curriculum should draw the line somewhere.However, George tells me that this resentmenthasalmost completely didappeared, and flared up onlybriefly when one of his students, asked in anEnglishLit examination to list three contemporaries ofShakespeare, wrote down Heddon, Pflueger and SouthBend. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com from rextutor@yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 16:11:56 2002 g14MBt827567 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:11:55 -0600 04 Feb 2002 14:11:54 PST Subject: RE: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Rodmakers discussion group Has all the elements of an urban legend.--- "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: and they are deadly, read this. http://entertainment.yahoo.com/entnews/wwn/20020116/101119320009.html Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraudrods Hmmm, I consider them to be expensive store-bought,plastic imitations -- sort of like graphite rods. M-D From: "Brian Creek" Reed, Do you consider silicone implants to still be b**bs or not? Brian From: "Reed Curry" Darrell,I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However, when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. The answer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original. A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longer a Leonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old, since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, it is not a valid Leonard.You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, thatis of interest when you say that a Payne restored as one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatum emptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properlydisclosed... see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it was restored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority ofHL Leonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods that werenot made by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L.Leonard Rod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... herestores a rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continueto be just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. Payne Rod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't the value of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and the provenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling you that my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree withmy opinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up for sale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blow and you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by the original Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel the value is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and pass on the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has theirown perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restored rod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in50 years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod couldbegin to look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Mon Feb 4 16:23:20 2002 g14MNK828645 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:23:20 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:08:59 -0600 Subject: RE: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern I took both of Joe Humphreys' flyfishing classes at PSU in 1980. Bestcourse I ever took (the only one I remember and use, anyway!). George camein as guest speaker a couple of classes. He signed my "Techniques of TroutFishing and Fly Tying" book, which was our course "textbook". Wish I knewwhere it was right now... What a genius Mr. Harvey is on all topics Trout. TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern Timothy,I also thought you might of know George from your post .He is a great guy. I have tied at a number of shows thathe was giving a presentation on tying flies. We have alsotraded flies. I have a shadow box with three of his dryflies and a signed card hanging in my tying room.Troy, will be glad to show them to you when come up forthe Sowbug.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com timothy troester wrote: troy, i did not know george. this was a quote from abook by ed zern. my brother knew him. my brother phd'dat penn state. timothy --- "Miller, Troy" wrote: TIMOTHY!! I didn't know that you know George!Where do you live? TAM -----Original Message-----From: timothy troester Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:56 PM beaudoin; ronalddreyer; richard hutton; ron kanwisher; dickmcdaniel; chris mehuys; bretreiter; jim roth; thomas yocomSubject: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern At the time George Harvey began teaching acollege-accredited course in angling at Penn State,there were rumblings of academic disapproval fromthefaculty, some of whose members felt that theCommitteon Curriculum should draw the line somewhere.However, George tells me that this resentmenthasalmost completely didappeared, and flared up onlybriefly when one of his students, asked in anEnglishLit examination to list three contemporaries ofShakespeare, wrote down Heddon, Pflueger and SouthBend. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!http://auctions.yahoo.com from jourdoktorn@chello.se Mon Feb 4 16:26:47 2002 g14MQk829077 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:26:47 -0600 (InterMail vK.4.03.00.00 201-232-121 licensed2583c0617b67bae473a44216fd3d32d) Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:25:47 +0100 Subject: Re: Leonard Rods - Restoration Oh, ...yes there is!Jan .Quality Cane rods can NEVER become worthless like stock. I consider themahard asset like gold or real estate. Hmmm, I wonder if there are any 401kplans or SEP's that will allow for bamboo fly rod investments... Any fundmanagers out there? ;^) LOL! 'nough said. DL from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 16:36:22 2002 g14MaM829854 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:36:22 -0600 04 Feb 2002 14:36:21 PST Subject: Re: Winston flick bob@downandacross.com,fquinchat@locl.net, Rodmakers in the event that someone starts passing them out. iam intrested! timothy --- Bamboo Joe wrote: I agree Patrick, it would be nice to have a chartlike that. Anyone got one? Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a BambooFly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker----- Original Message -----From: "Coffey, Patrick W" "Rodmakers" Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 12:25 PMSubject: RE: Winston flick It would be great to have that length chart he used to mark where to cutfor node spacing. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the feathery edge of the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at these and mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say ask me!). Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Of Dennis Bertram Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loose splines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? It seems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com from James.Hatch@METROKC.GOV Mon Feb 4 16:48:55 2002 g14Mms801005 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:48:54 -0600 id ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 14:48:52 -0800 pest.com,patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com, bob@downandacross.com,fquinchat@locl.net,Rodmakers Subject: RE: Winston flick this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I am too. Please keep us informed. -----Original Message----- bob@downandacross.com; fquinchat@locl.net; RodmakersSubject: Re: Winston flick in the event that someone starts passing them out. iam intrested! timothy --- Bamboo Joe wrote: I agree Patrick, it would be nice to have a chartlike that. Anyone got one? Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a BambooFly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker----- Original Message -----From: "Coffey, Patrick W" "Rodmakers" Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 12:25 PMSubject: RE: Winston flick It would be great to have that length chart he used to mark where to cutfor node spacing. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the feathery edge of the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at these and mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say ask me!). Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Of Dennis Bertram Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loose splines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? It seems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com RE: Winston flick I am too. Please keep us informed. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:36 PM patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com;bob@downandacross.com; fquinchat@locl.net; =RodmakersSubject: Re: Winston flick in the event that someone starts passing them out. =iam intrested! timothy wrote: chart Bamboo Life". PM chart he 425-237-0083 79 PM practice. It will be know so I video. owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu rodmakers@=wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf PM rodmaker sharp "Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- =E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! = http://auctions.yahoo.com from jojo@ipa.net Mon Feb 4 19:03:30 2002 g1513T805598 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:03:29 -0600 helo=default) id 16Xu19-0003F3-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 20:03:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Restored rods are not necessarily Fraud rods Well, that was certainly . . . hmmm . . . intriguing. M-D and they are deadly, read this. http://entertainment.yahoo.com/entnews/wwn/20020116/101119320009.html Patrick W. Coffey Hmmm, I consider them to be expensive store-bought, plastic imitations -- sort of like graphite rods. M-D From: "Brian Creek" Reed, Do you consider silicone implants to still be b**bs or not? Brian From: "Reed Curry" Darrell,I agree that if all work is properly disclosed no fraud occurs. However, when that owner dies, do his heirs understand the rod's condition. Theanswer is yes...if replacement parts are marked as non-original.A Leonard rod with a new mid made by Herman Cappaccino is no longeraLeonard rod. The new mid will probably not match the taper of the old,since Herman doesn't have the template; but even if it were perfect, it is not a valid Leonard.You do disclose something about your business practices, Darrell, that is of interest when you say that a Payne restored by you is as much a Payne as one restored by the Payne Co.. Caveat Emptor, indeed!!! Caveatumemptor Darrellum!Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Darrell Lee wrote: A Restored rod is not a fraud rod, if all work is properly disclosed... see next email... An HL Leonard rod will always be a HL Leonard rod, even if it wasrestored by someone other than Hiram... Besides, the vast majority of HL Leonard rods were not made by Hiram Leonard... those rods thatwere not made by him, but by various factory workers employed by the H.L. Leonard Rod Co. over the last 100 years, are they truly Leonard rods? How about the accountant of a company becomes a rod maker... he restores a rod of that company... does that qualify as a factory restoration? My point is that if I restore one of my Payne rods, it would continue to be just as much a Payne rod as one that was restored by The E.F. Payne Rod Co. last year... If the quality of work was equal, shouldn't thevalue of the rod be equal? How about 30 years from now and theprovenance is lost, when there is no way document the history of the rod. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, so I'm not here telling youthat my opinion is right, it's just my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion then fine, we can agree to disagree. So, if a rod comes up for sale and it's priced at xxx dollars... If it was restored by Joe Blow and you feel it is overpriced because it was not restored by theoriginal Grand Ole Master (whoever that might be) then you feel thevalue is lower and might be willing to only spend yyy dollars and pass on the rod. That is how the free market works... everyone has their own perception of value... A Mint original condition rod will sell for more than a Mint restored rod. Usually the MR rod looks better than an original... however, in 50 years, 7 owners, things could get fuzzy and the restored rod could begin to look like an original... Caveat Emptor! Regards, Darrell LeeAnglers Collectibles Exchangehttp://www.vfish.net Info & Int'l Line: (323)465-4551 U.S. Toll-Free Order Line (877) 452-2420 from channer@frontier.net Mon Feb 4 19:17:34 2002 g151HX806165 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:17:33 -0600 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:17:40 - Subject: Re: Winston flick Guys;So why does someone else have to hand it to you, figure your own out andmake it for yourself. I realize that this sounds like something thatTerry would say, but he happens to be right about a few things. I mean,jeez, you gotta be able to do some of the brain work for yourselves.john(flame away, asbestos britches in place) "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: It would be great to have that length chart he used to mark where to cutfornode spacing. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the featheryedgeof the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at theseand mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say ask me!).Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from drinkr@voicenet.com Mon Feb 4 19:38:08 2002 g151c7806878 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:38:07 -0600 (209.71.85.202) Subject: Hydraulic Press advice I was wondering if anyone as some expertise of hydraulic presses. Ipurchased an inexpensive 12 ton floor press which I have used to form reelseats and snake guides. This press uses a 12 ton hydraulic bottle jack toapply pressure within the press frame. To get some consistent results I haveused a dial indicator attached to the hydraulic bottle jack to measureswing. I thought some sort of pressure gauge might work better. Is thispossible or cant I retro fit anything to this . from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 20:10:39 2002 g152Ac807969 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:10:38 -0600 04 Feb 2002 18:10:38 PST Subject: Re: Winston flick john, i have made up my own chart or formula or maybenotes in my little secrets book. it's not hard. justthink about it. i am just nosy. i am intrested in whatthey are doing. it can't be much diff than anyone elsewould figure out. i usually am deciding , not whichculm for what rod length but which node spacing to use too hard, is mark nodes on a sheet for each rod youmake then sort by length. it all falls into place. wedetermine spacing for each rod we make anyway, don'twe all? this isn't a flame, by the way! cheers! timothy --- channer wrote: Guys;So why does someone else have to hand it to you,figure your own out andmake it for yourself. I realize that this soundslike something thatTerry would say, but he happens to be right about afew things. I mean,jeez, you gotta be able to do some of the brain work john(flame away, asbestos britches in place) "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: It would be great to have that length chart he used to mark where to cut for node spacing. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the feathery edge of the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at these and mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say ask me!). Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Of Dennis Bertram Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loose splines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? It seems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from canazon@mindspring.com Mon Feb 4 21:06:38 2002 g1536W814770 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:06:32 -0600 helo=oemcomputer) id 16XvvP-0008B0-00; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 22:05:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Hydraulic Press advice david,i had spent many years in construction using just about every type ofhydraulic, pnuematic, electric over hydraulic, and air over system evermade. i had the privelige of working on designs that grew out of the spaceprogram. i traveled to sweden, canada, russia, and south africa to developeand implement these designs and i can only say this, :O) mike from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Feb 4 21:32:58 2002 g153Wv815752 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:32:57 -0600 Subject: Re: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com I think these classes are an awesome idea for colleges to carry and I used to teach a fly tying/fly fishing course at Southwestern Michigan College and I am going to possibly start teaching a similar course next fall at Indiana University. It is in the works right now. http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ I think these classes arean awesome idea for colleges to carry and I used to teach a fly tying/flyfishing course at Southwestern Michigan College and I am going to possibly the works right now. http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ from tedknott@cogeco.ca Mon Feb 4 21:56:35 2002 g153uY816486 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:56:34 -0600 , Subject: Re: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern I've been teaching introductory fly fishing and fly tying courses for =our regional college for 25 years. Its a general interest course =offered in the fall and spring semesters under the Recreational Dept. =The course is 4 meetings, one of which is on a stream. When we formed =the Hamilton Fly Fishers Club 10 years ago the class lists were used to =recruit members. I've been teaching introductory fly = interest course offered in the fall and spring semesters under the = used to recruit members. from flyrod@pop.digisys.net Mon Feb 4 22:11:43 2002 g154Bg817143 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:11:42 -0600 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:11:39 -0800 Subject: Re: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern college-accredited course in angling at Penn State, Timothy, I'll have to ask my uncle about this, he isnt a fisherman of any sort buthe is the head of the nuclear dept at Penn StateJim from petermckean@netspace.net.au Tue Feb 5 03:54:23 2002 g159sL822391 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 03:54:22 -0600 g159rwx24122; Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard] Nah, Terry's alright. He is doing his own thing and minding his own business. Power to his arm, in my opinion! Peter from petermckean@netspace.net.au Tue Feb 5 03:59:49 2002 g159xl822626 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 03:59:47 -0600 g159xbx25166; Subject: Re: Heat Gun Kit When faced with this sort of dilemma, I often ask myself, "If this was =the cheapest condom on the shelf, would I buy it for that reason =alone?". Oosic the deflated. When faced with this sort of dilemma, I= myself, "If this was the cheapest condom on the shelf, would I buy = that reason alone?". deflated. from petermckean@netspace.net.au Tue Feb 5 04:16:45 2002 g15AGh823024 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 04:16:43 -0600 g15AGYw27993; Subject: Re: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern Jim I apologise for this in advance, but I am in the grip of a compulsion that Icannot control, but ................. I would have thought that your uncle would have known a great deal aboutfission! Peter from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Feb 5 08:02:36 2002 g15E2Y825669 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:02:35 -0600 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:02:23 -0500 Subject: ice fishing Subject: Ice Fishing Once upon a time, long, long ago there was a Presidential election that was too close to call. Neither the Republican presidential candidate nor the Democratic presidential candidate had enough votes to win the election. Therefore, it was decided that there should be a nice fishing contest between the two candidates to determine the final winner. There was much talk about ballot recounting, court challenges,etc., but a week-long ice fishing competition seemed the (manly) way to settle things. The candidate that catches the most fish at the end of the weekwins. After a lot of back and forth discussion, it was decided that the contest would take place on a remote and cold lake in Wisconsin. There were to be no observers present, and both men were to be sent out separately on thisremote lake and return daily with their catch for counting and verification. At the end of the first day, George W. returns to the starting line and he has 10 fish. Soon, Al Gore returnsand has zero fish. Well, everyone assumes he is just having another bad hair day or something and hopefully, he will catch up the nextday.At the end of the 2nd day George W. comes in with 20 fish andAl Gore comes in again with none. That evening, Bill Clinton gets together secretly with Al and says,"Al, I think George W. is a lowlife cheatin' son-of-a- gun. I! want you to go out tomorrow and don't even bother with fishing. Just spy on him and see if he is cheating in any way. The next night (after George W. comes> back with 50 fish), Bill Clinton says to Al, "Well, what about it, is George W. cheatin'?" "He sure is, Bill, he's cutting holes in the ice." http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ Subject: Ice Fishing Onceupon a time, long, long ago there was a Presidential election that was tooclose to call. Neither the Republican presidential candidate nor theDemocratic presidential candidate had enough votes to win the contest between the two candidates to determine the final winner. Therewas much talk about ballot recounting, court challenges,etc., but a week-longice fishing competition seemed the (manly) way to settle things. Thecandidate that catches the most fish at the end of the week wins. After alot of back and forth discussion, it was decided that the contest would takeplace on a remote and cold lake in Wisconsin. There were to be no observerspresent, and both men were to be sent out separately on this remote lakeand return daily with their catch for counting and verification. At the end ofthe first day, George W. returns to !the starting line and he has 10 fish. Soon, Al Gore returnsand has zero fish.Well, everyone assumes he is just having another bad hair day or somethingand hopefully, he will catch up the nextday.At the end of the 2nd day George evening, Bill Clinton gets together secretly with Al and says,"Al, I thinkGeorge W. is a lowlife cheatin' son-of-a-gun. I! want you to go out tomorrowand don't even bother with fishing. Just spy on him and see if he is cheating fish), Bill Clinton says to Al, "Well, what about it, is George W. cheatin'?" "Hesure is, Bill, he's cutting holes in the ice." http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ from jojo@ipa.net Tue Feb 5 08:59:14 2002 g15ExD828955 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:59:13 -0600 helo=default) id 16Y73s-00032D-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:59:09 -0500 Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard] Terry may be alright, and more power to him for doing his own thing, but histri-monthly drive-by taunts are not "minding his own business". M-D Nah, Terry's alright. He is doing his own thing and minding his own business. Power to his arm, in my opinion! Peter from rmoon@ida.net Tue Feb 5 09:04:27 2002 g15F4Q829360 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:04:26 -0600 Subject: Re: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern OOOOOH!Ralph Peter McKean wrote: Jim I apologise for this in advance, but I am in the grip of a compulsion that Icannot control, but ................. I would have thought that your uncle would have known a great deal aboutfission! Peter from Harris.James@ev.state.az.us Tue Feb 5 09:10:14 2002 g15FAD829806 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:10:14 -0600 Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:10:06 -0700 08:08:18 2002 -0700 with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern FILETIME=[31E2A7D0:01C1AE57] g15FAE829807 It's funny you should have that kind of- reaction. "Ralph W. Moon" 02/05/02 08:04AM >>> OOOOOH!Ralph Peter McKean wrote: Jim I apologise for this in advance, but I am in the grip of a compulsion that Icannot control, but ................. I would have thought that your uncle would have known a great deal aboutfission! Peter from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Tue Feb 5 09:15:52 2002 g15FFp800350 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:15:51 -0600 g15FFkXD014117 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:15:46 -0500 Subject: Re: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern Ooooooooooooooooohhhhhh me achin' 'ead........... mark At 09:15 PM 2/5/2002 +1100, you wrote: Jim I apologise for this in advance, but I am in the grip of a compulsion that Icannot control, but ................. I would have thought that your uncle would have known a great deal aboutfission! Peter from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Feb 5 09:36:24 2002 g15FaO801667 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:36:24 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:messageSubject: RE: Taper Spread sheet Thread-Topic: Taper Spread sheetThread-Index: AcGsA0nUc88wXhfoEda4IQBglOouXwCVnBYQ I really like Joe's program, too, and am a paid V3.0 user. He's done areal service to all of us, and if we all paid for a copy he might evenapproach minimum wage for the time it took him. But I far prefer a simple taper graph (distance from tip vs.flat-to-flat in thous.) and find it easier to relate the feel of the rodto these graphs than to stress charts, which are based on questionableassumptions in my opinion. I could probably figure out how to do it if Ihad the time, but has anyone found a way to take a taper file exported from Joe's program and import it into Excel? That's what I use to makemy graphs. Or Joe, if it would export a taper even in a very simpleformat like comma delimited ASCII (you wouldn't even need the distance from tip, just start with the tip dimension and it would be implicitthat the rest were at 5" intervals), Excel and most every other programcould import it. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Taper Spread sheet Shawn:I really have enjoyed using Joe Byrd's program, especially since headded the ability to exchange tapers with no need for me to type them inincorrectly! It does not graph tapers, but I find that when I wantgraphs, it is best to do them on graph paper anyway. It gives me abetter hands on feel. I have some that I have on transparency paper. Ican easily lay them over one another. Another perk to being a school No, I do not get any financial kick back on the prgram. Maybe someday?Best regards, Bob-----Original Message----- Subject: Taper Spread sheet I am still struggling to develop a taper spreadsheet I am happywith so I can input, save, print and share all my tapers easily, I amsick of the disorganized mess of tapers I have scattered about and the I have decided I want a simple layout similar to the one on theRodmakers tapers page (a title, blurb about the rod, a list of I want to make a template, most likely in Excel, that I can justinput the dimensions and the program will auto generate the graph. Thisgot me thinking....What kind of formula am I going to have to input toget the stress curve graph?? And what information will I need to fill 0DocumentEmail Bo=b – I =reallylike Joe’s program, too, and am a paid V3.0 user. He’s done=a real service toall of us, and if we all paid for a copy he might even approach minimum =wage Bu=t I farprefer a simple taper graph (distance from tip vs. flat-to-flat in =thous.) andfind it easier to relate the feel of the rod to these graphs than to =stresscharts, which are based on questionable assumptions in my opinion. I =couldprobably figure out how to do it if I had the time, but has anyone found =a wayto take a taper file exported from Joe’s program and import it =into Excel? That’swhat I use to make my graphs. Or Joe, if it would export a taper even in =a verysimple format like comma delimited ASCII (you wouldn’t even need =the distance from tip, just start with the tip dimension and it would be implicit =that therest were at 5” intervals), Excel and most every other program =could import it. Ba=rry -----OriginalMessage-----From: Bob Maulucci Sent: Saturday, February=02, 200210:03 AM bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca;rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Taper Spread=sheet Shawn: I really have enjoyed using Joe Byrd's program, especially =sincehe added the ability to exchange tapers with no need for me to type them =inincorrectly! It does not graph tapers, but I find that when I want =graphs, itis best to do them on graph paper anyway. It gives me a better hands on =feel. Ihave some that I have on transparency paper. I can easily lay them over =oneanother. Another perk to being a school teacher. No, I do not get any financial kick back on the prgram. =Maybesomeday? Best regards, Bob -----OriginalMessage-----From:owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Saturday, February=02, 20029:49 AM rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Taper Spread =sheet All, struggling to develop a taper spreadsheet I am happy with so I can =input, save,print and share all my tapers easily, I am sick of the disorganized mess =oftapers I have scattered about and the hassle it becomes to share these =tapers. to theone on the Rodmakers tapers page (a title, blurb about the rod, a list =ofdimensions, perhaps a form setting?, and a simple stress graph) Excel, thatI can just input the dimensions and the program will auto generate the =graph. inputto get the stress curve graph?? And what information will I need to fill =thatformula?? Thanks, Shawn from jerryy@webtv.net Tue Feb 5 09:43:45 2002 g15Fhj802254 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:43:45 -0600 by mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:43:44 -0800 2111.public.lawson.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id HAA02463; ETAsAhRoLbI8/BuWlZtecRNljh1p/ZksWAIUFN5tx1s8p0C70gbDyKd15UL0Heg= Subject: Two handed fresh water rods Looking through the archives I find mention of of everybodys concern forthe stress imposed at the mid section of a spey rod. While it mighttake an exceptional culm to build a long rod of this type my question isdouble building and hollowing a possibility. A good friend recentlyused a custom 12 ft. 3 in #8 wt. and found that light in the mid. Onlytaper I could find was the 12 ft. Warra #6 wt. 3 pc. rod but mention wasmade that there was an error in the taper posted in the planing form. T.I. A. Jerry Young from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Feb 5 09:52:11 2002 g15FqA802968 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:52:10 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:messageSubject: RE: H.L. Leonard] Thread-Topic: H.L. Leonard]Thread-Index: AcGsM0FKpdnKfhgdEda4IQBglOouXwCKBpkQ g15FqA802969 Terry - I agree with Tony of Australia in wishing you the best of luck, even though wehave both had occasion to disagree with you in the past. I hope yourmachines and control programs work well and that you make a lot of money.If you can afford to sell excellent rods for good prices that will only broadenthe bamboo market and increase the interest of more people in handmaderods (with higher prices). I never have understood bamboo craftsmen who feel threatened byeconomical production rods - I mean we have people paying $600 and more But even this is a market very different from those who will pay more forsomething hand made. The $600 market for well appointed production rodsand the $700-to-$1500 market for truly hand made rods won't go away justbecause someone manages to displace some of the "mid-price" graphitemarket with bamboo. The companies who ought to worry are the onesoffering production bamboo rods for $1500 and up. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard] Ok, so some rodmakers areovercharging, right?And the derogatory reference to me looks as if I may be undercharging, oreven worse, prepared to make too many.You guys are "special"Terry -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mailaccount today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ >FromTroy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Tue Feb 5 10:06:07 2002 Received: from g15G66803781 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) by Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 5 Feb 200209:51:39 -0600 Message-ID:From: "Miller, Troy" flytyr@southshore.com, tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Cc:RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu Subject: RE: GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern Date: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I agree wholeheartedly, Bret!I'd live an average life if it weren't for my fortuitous choice of PSU, andmeeting Joe H. Don't know if you know her, but Texas Hill Country guideConstance Whiston and I are doing a course for Texas Tech University on theLlano River this year. Don't know yet whether it will be accredited, but I knowI'll enjoy it either way. TAM -----Original Message----- From: tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Cc: RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu Subject: Re:GAUDEAMUS IGITUR - ed zern I think these classes are an awesome idea forcolleges to carry and I used to teach a fly tying/fly fishing course atSouthwestern Michigan College and I am going to possibly start teaching asimilar course next fall at Indiana University. It is in the works right now. from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Feb 5 10:17:43 2002 Received: from g15GHg804593 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Date: Tue, 5 Feb 200210:17:41 -0600 Message-ID: KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Hopeno one objects to this non-bamboo question.... Though I live in CentralMissouri I haven't fished the tailwaters in N. Arkansas and S. Missouri since Iwas a kid. Kind of stupid really, but let's not go into that....I recall severalpeople on the list mentioning this area recently so I thought you might helpme out here on a specific question. I like wading much more than boating -where are the good places to wade in this area, if any? I'm used to slipperyrocks (have cleats) and to wading fast water, so it needn't be easy wading,just survivable. I plan to go in a couple of weeks. Answers off list or on arewelcome. Also, feel free to share good places to stay and to send severaldozen of your secret killer fly (not that it will probably work for me). Thanksin advance! Barry Kling > from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Tue Feb 5 10:21:152002 Received: from relay04.roc.frontiernet.net 16:21:03 -0000 Message-ID:From: "Jill and Tom , References:Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard] Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: tausfeld@frontiernet.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Goodpoint Barry, Look at guns for example. You can get a servicable over/underSteoger(sp) for under $500, Ruger Red Label for about $900 or you can geta Krieghoff for $10,000. All will knock birds out of the air. Yet, there ismarket for each of them. Having more "good" inexpensive bamboo rodsavailable can only help the bamboo rod market. tom ----- Original Message ---- ; Sent: Tuesday,February 05, 2002 10:52 AM Subject: RE: H.L. Leonard] Terry - I agree with Tony of Australia in wishing you the best of luck, even though we have both had occasion to disagree with you in the past. I hopeyour machines and control programs work well and that you make a lot ofmoney. If you can afford to sell excellent rods for good prices that willonly broaden the bamboo market and increase the interest of more people inhandmade rods (with higher prices). I never have understood bamboo craftsmen who feel threatened byeconomical production rods - I mean we have people paying $600 and more forproductiongraphite rods whose blanks must cost $30 or $40 to make. But even this is amarket very different from those who will pay more for something handmade.The $600 market for well appointed production rods and the $700-to-$1500market for truly hand made rods won't go away just because someonemanagesto displace some of the "mid-price" graphite market with bamboo. Thecompanies who ought to worry are the ones offering production bamboo rods Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 3:46 PM Subject: Re: H.L. Leonard] Ok, so some rodmakers are overcharging, right? And the derogatory reference to me looks as if I may be undercharging, or even worse, prepared to make too many. You guys are "special"Terry -- __________________________________________________________________Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Tue Feb 5 10:55:35 2002 g15GtY807021 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:55:34 -0600 IAA19053; KAA15506; g15GtcR14057; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:55:44 -0800 Subject: RE: Winston flick who said anything about anybody handing anything to anybody? You shouldreadbefore you comment. Why don't you go to china and cut your own cane, whyrely on some one else to do it for you, Why don't you cast and form your ownnickel silver tubing and wire, why rely on some one to hand it to you. Iassume that you made your own cold roll steel for your hand made planningforms and didn't let some steel dealer hand it to you and some one else makethe forms for you and it goes without saying that you made your own flyline. Some of us don't have the expertise and facilities or materials tomake some of the things that we need, those of us who do make our own andthose that don't buy them. This wasn't intended to start another pissingcontest it just seems this world has to many people who chastise otherswhenthey haven't walked in their shoes. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Winston flick Guys;So why does someone else have to hand it to you, figure your own out andmake it for yourself. I realize that this sounds like something thatTerry would say, but he happens to be right about a few things. I mean,jeez, you gotta be able to do some of the brain work for yourselves.john(flame away, asbestos britches in place) "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: It would be great to have that length chart he used to mark where to cut for node spacing. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the featheryedgeof the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at theseand mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say ask me!).Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Feb 5 11:01:39 2002 g15H1c807659 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:01:38 -0600 (authenticated) Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:03:05 -0800 Rodmakers List-serv Subject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Barry, Wading is really fairly simple on the streams in question. Fish at the Damon the Norfork and the Goat's Bluff Handicap acess area. At the dam, fishas far downstream as you can while still being in Quarry Park -- between thetwo islands. At Goat's Bluff, walk upstream about 1/2 to 3/4 mile to thetwo islands, and fish both sides of both islands. On the White River, fish near the Dam. Big fish, and lots of 'em. from theparking area work your way downstream, but never more than a few hundredyards. Fish Rim Shoals C&R area as well. Killer fly?? Can you tie a tan size 16 scud, with a brown back? That'sreally the only fly necessary. Trust me, tie a coupla dozen of them. Also, 6xtippet is a necessity, no matter what other folks say about 4x or 5x. Use astrike indicator about 30" above the fly, and be very aware of the need for aperfect dead drift. Drag keeps most fisherman fishless on the White RiverSystem. Cleats aren't necessary. But definitely keep one eye out for rising water. Near the Dams you will hear the siren and know to get out of the water. Away from the Dams, you just plain have to be careful. http://www.ozarkangler.com/index.html and get a look at the maps. Theyare very specific about places to fish and will prove helpful. Harry "Kling, Barry W." wrote: Hope no one objects to this non-bamboo question.... Though I live in Central Missouri I haven't fished the tailwaters in N.Arkansas and S. Missouri since I was a kid. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from caneman@clnk.com Tue Feb 5 11:02:34 2002 g15H2X807844 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:02:33 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Barry,There is a lot of good wading water on the White, Norfork, Little Redand Beaver Tailwaters (also a part of the White River system for those notfamiliar).On the White, My favorite areas to wade are Cotter Access, Rim Shoals,the Narrows (near Cotter) and the area from just below the dam to Gaston's.On the Norfork, the area below the dam from the dam side of the boatramp, down to the "stump" is my favorite, but McClellans access has goodwading both up and downstream.Little Red... There is a place below the dam (you have to walkdownstream a bit) that I've heard called High Lines and Power Lines.Basically it's the area where the Power lines cross the river... greatwading in there, and some big fish. Immediately below the dam is good ifyou can catch it on a day when nobody is there... weekends will get you hitin the head with a half ounce weight followed by an Arkansas Sandwich(marshmallows and salmon eggs). I generally fish at Swinging Bridge.Beaver Tailwaters. Great wading all through the first mile and a halfof this fishery. Start at the dam and go through the C&R area. There is aroad that parallels the river all the way into the C&R stretch so access iseasy and fishing can be great in here, esp in the C&R area. My favoritespot is just above the Catch and Release. There is a stretch of the riverthere that's largely ignored for two reasons... 1. It has some marginallydeep holes and if you don't watch where you're going you can step off intoone of these... coldest water in Arkansas I think and I've taken accidentalbaths in all of the above rivers. 2. No place for the bank fishers to settheir lawn chairs, so they don't mess with it much! I also enjoy the C&Rarea from it's beginning, downstream as far as you can wade (probably a mileor a bit more when the water is down). Plenty of big fish in there, butthey aren't stupid fish. I stalked one brown for an hour one day andcouldn't move him from above his rock. Hope this helps... Maybe Tony and MD will chime in here. They know moreabout the White, Norfork and LIttle Red than I do. BobR.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com----- Original Message ----- Subject: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Hope no one objects to this non-bamboo question.... Though I live in Central Missouri I haven't fished the tailwaters in N. Arkansas and S. Missouri since I was a kid. Kind of stupid really, but let'snot go into that....I recall several people on the list mentioning this arearecently so I thought you might help me out here on a specific question. Ilike wading much more than boating - where are the good places to wade inthis area, if any? I'm used to slippery rocks (have cleats) and to wadingfast water, so it needn't be easy wading, just survivable. I plan to go in acouple of weeks. Answers off list or on are welcome. Also, feel free toshare good places to stay and to send several dozen of your secret killerfly (not that it will probably work for me). Thanks in advance! Barry Kling from GBuckley@aapg.org Tue Feb 5 11:14:34 2002 g15HEY808899 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:14:34 -0600 5 Feb 02 11:19:12 -0600 0600 5 Feb 02 11:18:33 -0600User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh- Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Hare's ear and bead head nymphs have been real productive for me for thepast several years. Presentation definitely counts. And when you hear the dam sirens... reel in and hot foot it out (to the sideyou meant to be on). The water rises mighty fast. It's a lot of swift waterand as Bob says it's very cold. from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Tue Feb 5 11:27:07 2002 g15HR6809723 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:27:06 -0600 helo=0zlaw.ix.netcom.com) id 16Y9II-0004Om-00; Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:22:11 -0500 Subject: Rod --=====================_2162503==_.ALT Several Sundays ago, our Pastor used an old fly rod to make a point in his sermon. He had used it as a kid growing up in New Zealand. I got a look at it and it is an old wooden rod -- what I believe to be pine in the butt and mid sections and greenhart in the tip. Total length is 9' 4" -- the tip is a bit shorter that the other two sections which are only about 1/4" different in length. It has brass fittings and ferrules -- no real seat or cork grip -- just all wood. Ferrules are brass tubes that actually fit fairly snug. He has no idea as to the rod's age but he's around 60. I'm cleaning it up unraveled. It only has 5 guides and the tip-top was a looped "wire" that was tied on by the two the two legs that ran down the side of the rod. He wanted to "fish" it but I told him it would look better on his wall. I don't know what value it may have -- if any -- other than sentimental. Any thoughts on it's history or age? It's obviously a conversation peice. f. _________________________Fred Bohls3519 Ada DriveMechanicsburg, PA 17050-2213 Home: (717) 732-5050Fax: (717) 732-2414 MAKE IT A GREAT DAY !!!!!! --=====================_2162503==_.ALT Several Sundays ago, our Pastor used an old fly rod to make a point in believe to be pine in the butt and mid sections and greenhart in the the other two sections which are only about 1/4" different in fairly snug. it up for him and will re-wrap it as most of the guides wraps were coming "wire" that was tied on by the two the two legs that ran downthe side of the rod.He wanted to "fish" it but I told him it would look better on obviously a conversation peice. _________________________FredBohls3519 Ada DriveMechanicsburg, PA 17050-2213 MAKEIT A GREAT DAY !!!!!! --=====================_2162503==_.ALT-- from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 11:30:13 2002 g15HUC810098 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:30:12 -0600 05 Feb 2002 09:30:11 PST Subject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking --- Gerald Buckley wrote: Hare's ear and bead head nymphs have been realproductive for me for thepast several years. Presentation definitely counts. ...concerning And when you hear the dam sirens... reel in and hotfoot it out (to the sideyou meant to be on). ...response you have it in reverse. "hot-foot it!" then "reel in"!:>) timothy The water rises mighty fast. It's a lot of swift waterand as Bob says it's very cold. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Tue Feb 5 12:16:47 2002 g15IGk813329 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:16:46 -0600 KAA07361; KAA29897; g15IGuR26139; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:16:57 -0800 "Coffey, Patrick W" , channer@frontier.net Subject: RE: Winston flick no I think that the way his chart works is that you pick the length of rodyou are making, select your culm and measure the distance between thenodes,the chart then gives you the cut off length to get a section out using the2.2.2 node spacing based on the distance that you have between the nodesonthe culm you have selected out of your stash. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: RE: Winston flick Help me to understand the node chart.You have decided to build a 7ft 6in rod and you look up on the chart and thechart says a 7ft 6in rod should have xin node spacing, Right? Then you gothrough your stock of bamboo, measuring each one until you find the correctspacing and away you go? Tom Morgan may a damn fine chap but according to his web site, he has notmade a cane rod, he is a plastics man. He does intend to make canerods....but not this week.Terry "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: who said anything about anybody handing anything to anybody? You should read before you comment. Why don't you go to china and cut your own cane, whyrely on some one else to do it for you, Why don't you cast and form your own nickel silver tubing and wire, why rely on some one to hand it to you. Iassume that you made your own cold roll steel for your hand made planningforms and didn't let some steel dealer hand it to you and some one else make the forms for you and it goes without saying that you made your own flyline. Some of us don't have the expertise and facilities or materials tomake some of the things that we need, those of us who do make our ownandthose that don't buy them. This wasn't intended to start another pissingcontest it just seems this world has to many people who chastise others when they haven't walked in their shoes. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 5:18 PMCc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Winston flick Guys;So why does someone else have to hand it to you, figure your own out andmake it for yourself. I realize that this sounds like something thatTerry would say, but he happens to be right about a few things. I mean,jeez, you gotta be able to do some of the brain work for yourselves.john(flame away, asbestos britches in place) "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: It would be great to have that length chart he used to mark where to cut for node spacing. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the feathery edge of the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at theseand mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say askme!).Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mailaccount today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ >Fromflyfish@gbronline.com Tue Feb 5 13:30:45 2002 Received: from 0600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 05 Feb2002 13:31:38 -0600 From: Greg Kuntz X-Mailer: fbcwin@3g.quik.com CC: KlingB@health.missouri.edu, Rodmakers List- servSubject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters --Warning: Not Rodmaking References:Content- flyfish@gbronline.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN And water goes up, because it's a long walk otherwise. To add in my $.02-- I'vehad a lot of good results with #12 olive BH wooly buggers, and 12 or 14 BHfox squirrel nymphs. I've had the best results on falling water levels fishing atight swing through pockets. One other spot on the White--go to BuffaloShoals--lots of wadable pocket water. It's about a half mile walk up therailroad bed from the Buffalo City access, if I remember correctly. HarryBoyd wrote: Barry, Wading is really fairly simple on the streams in question. Fish at the Damon the Norfork and the Goat's Bluff Handicap acess area. At the dam, fishas far downstream as you can while still being in Quarry Park -- between thetwo islands. At Goat's Bluff, walk upstream about 1/2 to 3/4 mile to thetwo islands, and fish both sides of both islands. On the White River, fish near the Dam. Big fish, and lots of 'em. from theparking area work your way downstream, but never more than a few hundredyards. Fish Rim Shoals C&R area as well. Killer fly?? Can you tie a tan size 16 scud, with a brown back? That'sreally the only fly necessary. Trust me, tie a coupla dozen of them. Also, 6xtippet is a necessity, no matter what other folks say about 4x or 5x. Use astrike indicator about 30" above the fly, and be very aware of the need for aperfect dead drift. Drag keeps most fisherman fishless on the White RiverSystem. Cleats aren't necessary. But definitely keep one eye out for rising water. Near the Dams you will hear the siren and know to get out of the water. Away from the Dams, you just plain have to be careful. http://www.ozarkangler.com/index.html and get a look at the maps. Theyare very specific about places to fish and will prove helpful. Harry "Kling, Barry W." wrote: Hope no one objects to this non-bamboo question.... Though I live in Central Missouri I haven't fished the tailwaters in N.Arkansas and S. Missouri since I was a kid. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Feb 5 13:41:24 2002 g15JfN820002 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:41:23 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:messageSubject: RE: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Thread-Topic: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Thread-Index: AcGue54HfKqcmhprEda4IgBglOouXwAAVSyQ g15JfN820003 Thanks, Greg. You guys are truly excellent, I asked the question just a littlewhile ago and already have enough good information for about a year offishing....BK -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking And by all means, be sure you're headed to the side you want to be on whenthe water goes up, because it's a long walk otherwise.To add in my $.02- -I've had a lot of good results with #12 olive BH wooly buggers, and 12 or 14BH fox squirrel nymphs. I've had the best results on falling water levelsfishing a tight swing through pockets.One other spot on the White-go to Buffalo Shoals-lots of wadable pocketwater. It's about a half mile walk up the railroad bed from the Buffalo Cityaccess, if I remember correctly. from ttalsma@macatawa.org Tue Feb 5 15:28:24 2002 g15LSN820917 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:28:23 -0600 id ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:21:24 -0500 id D56AMDQM; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:21:19 -0500 Subject: Scheduled chat?? All, I'd like your input on whether or not you think that having scheduledchats hosted on the tips site would be useful or not. I know Ron Kussehosts a chat session on FAOL, but I'm just thinking of more, maybe evenregional chats would be useful. Thanks for your input.-- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Tue Feb 5 15:28:30 2002 Received: from g15LST820962 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:28:29 ; Tue, 05 Feb 2002 16:27:09 -0500 Message-ID:From: "Bamboo Joe" References:Subject: Re: Taper Spread sheet Date: Tue, 5 208.27.26.111 X-Return-Path: jcbyrd@direct-pest.com X-MDaemon-Deliver- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This is a multi-part message printable Barry: Thanks for your kind words about v3.0 Gold. Yes, theprogram can export = to Excel, and It is already hard coded in there, but Idecided to not = include that capability and the capability to export to html inv3.0 = Gold. There were some issues as to formatting. If you will get me astandard that you all would like to see as far as = how it will export to excel,and what data fields you want exported, I = will do a maintenance release ofthe program. The export to html is also hard coded into the program, but onthe = advice of some of the test teams I didn't put it in v3.0 Gold yet =either. It will actually export to html and format a web page as to = what and look forward to future = releases. Joe were at 5" intervals), Excel andmost every other program could import =it. 0DocumentEmail @font-face { font-family: Tahoma;}@page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; =mso-header-margin: .5in; mso-footer- margin: .5in; mso-paper-source: 0; }P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style- parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT- FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast- font-family: "Times New Roman"}LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}SPAN.EmailStyle15 { COLOR: navy; mso-style-type: personal-reply; mso-ansi-font-size: =10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; =mso-bidi-font-family: Arial}DIV.Section1 { page: Section1} Barry: and It is already hard coded in there, but I decided to not include that = some issues as to formatting. will get me a standard that you all would like to see as far as how it = export to excel, and what data fields you want exported, I will do a = release of the program. export to html is also hard coded into the program, but on the advice of = export to html and format a web page as to what tapers you currently = releases. Joe like Joe=92s program, too, and am a paid V3.0 user. He=92s done a real = all of us, and if we all paid for a copy he might even approach minimum = the time it took him. Joe, if it would export a taper even in a very simple format like = delimited ASCII (you wouldn=92t even need the distance from tip, just = it. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Feb 5 15:46:40 2002 g15Lkd826064 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:46:39 -0600 (authenticated) Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:48:07 -0800 Subject: Re: Scheduled chat?? Todd, I'm not sure how many of us are really aware of the Thursday night FAOLbamboo chat. In fact, John Channer and I are the only two from this list(that I know about, at least) that have been semi-regular lately. Seemslike Reed, and maybe one or two others have stopped by occasionally. Ijust found it and got involved a few months back. I think lots of us mightenjoy it. Harry Todd Talsma wrote: All, I'd like your input on whether or not you think that having scheduledchats hosted on the tips site would be useful or not. I know Ron Kussehosts a chat session on FAOL --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from jvswan@earthlink.net Tue Feb 5 15:46:42 2002 g15Lke826073 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:46:40 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108Subject: Re: Scheduled chat?? Todd, I think a chat would be great. One word of caution, though. With so manypeople with so many different connection speeds and system configurations,and, of course, so many different opinions, I think it would be wise to makesure that the chats be well moderated to allow people time to expressthemselves without the frustration of getting cut off or ignored. A goodtopic du jour, so to speak, would also be helpful. Hope this goes together. I think it would be pretty cool to have a chat on,say, Tony Spezio's soaking method for strip pre-work or on better ways toget more accurate strips in less amount of time. Or how about bindingmethods or ammonia toning. Wow, I'm already getting excited. Jason On 2/5/02 2:24 PM, "Todd Talsma" wrote: All, I'd like your input on whether or not you think that having scheduledchats hosted on the tips site would be useful or not. I know Ron Kussehosts a chat session on FAOL, but I'm just thinking of more, maybe evenregional chats would be useful. Thanks for your input. from eamon_lee@hotmail.com Tue Feb 5 16:44:54 2002 g15Mir809939 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:44:53 -0600 Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:44:48 -0800 Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:44:47 GMT Subject: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits FILETIME=[B720EBC0:01C1AE96] All-Does anybody know where to get the best router bits with 60 and 45 dergree configurations for rough milling cane? I was entertaining the thought of building a finish mill, but I have come to the conclusion that with the time and money that it would take to get to where I would want to be I could probably buy an awesome lathe, truck load of cane and hand plane about 100 rods. So, maybe I can slap together a rough straight tapering mill based on a router and get to the business of building rods. Any help is much appreciated. TIA,Eamon _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from flytyr@southshore.com Tue Feb 5 17:17:26 2002 g15NHQ817256 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:17:26 -0600 g15NHKo20254; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:17:20 -0600 Rodmakers List-serv Subject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Don't be telling everyone about Buffalo Shoals. I would not do that when allthese list members are reading your message. LOLThat is a real nice place on the White. The best fly for that area is the ChiliPepper.Just thought I would post this to the list.Walking down the track trail is now a No NO. The people that bought theproperty have posted the trail area and really enforce it. There has been acouple of incidents that got some trespassersarrested. Walking the tracks is also not permitted.When I fish the shoals, we put in at Buffalo City and motor up to the shoals.Barry will get back to you off list.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com "Kling, Barry W." wrote: Thanks, Greg. You guys are truly excellent, I asked the question just a littlewhile ago and already have enough good information for about a year offishing....BK -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 1:32 PM Cc: KlingB@health.missouri.edu; Rodmakers List-servSubject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking And by all means, be sure you're headed to the side you want to be on whenthe water goes up, because it's a long walk otherwise.To add in my $.02- -I've had a lot of good results with #12 olive BH wooly buggers, and 12 or 14BH fox squirrel nymphs. I've had the best results on falling water levelsfishing a tight swing through pockets.One other spot on the White-go to Buffalo Shoals-lots of wadable pocketwater. It's about a half mile walk up the railroad bed from the Buffalo Cityaccess, if I remember correctly. from channer@frontier.net Tue Feb 5 17:56:10 2002 g15Nu9826156 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:56:09 -0600 Subject: Re: Winston flick Patrick;I don't want to start, or continue a pissing contest either, but asking bit much. It's not high tech, doesn't require any tools other than apencil, a tape measure and some figuring. And I wasn't chastising you inparticular. I know the purpose of this list is to share information, butsometimes it seems that no one is thinking for himself anymore. Sorry ifyou took it personally.john "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: who said anything about anybody handing anything to anybody? You shouldreadbefore you comment. Why don't you go to china and cut your own cane,whyrely on some one else to do it for you, Why don't you cast and form yourownnickel silver tubing and wire, why rely on some one to hand it to you. Iassume that you made your own cold roll steel for your hand made planningforms and didn't let some steel dealer hand it to you and some one elsemakethe forms for you and it goes without saying that you made your own flyline. Some of us don't have the expertise and facilities or materials tomake some of the things that we need, those of us who do make our ownandthose that don't buy them. This wasn't intended to start another pissingcontest it just seems this world has to many people who chastise otherswhenthey haven't walked in their shoes. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 5:18 PMCc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Winston flick Guys;So why does someone else have to hand it to you, figure your own out andmake it for yourself. I realize that this sounds like something thatTerry would say, but he happens to be right about a few things. I mean,jeez, you gotta be able to do some of the brain work for yourselves.john(flame away, asbestos britches in place) "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: It would be great to have that length chart he used to mark where to cut for node spacing. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the featheryedgeof the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at theseand mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say askme!).Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Feb 5 18:47:57 2002 g160lu814080 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:47:56 -0600 Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:49:21 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Scheduled chat?? Todd,sounds great, I used to go to FAOL chat faithfully till thingsstarted getting silly and not bamboo related. Also didn't care for some of the"holier than thou" attitudes of some of the regulars. Did meet some goodpeoplethere though, talked to John quite a bit back then.Keep up the great work Todd, Shawn Harry Boyd wrote: Todd, I'm not sure how many of us are really aware of the Thursday night FAOLbamboo chat. In fact, John Channer and I are the only two from this list(that I know about, at least) that have been semi-regular lately. Seemslike Reed, and maybe one or two others have stopped by occasionally. Ijust found it and got involved a few months back. I think lots of us mightenjoy it. Harry Todd Talsma wrote: All, I'd like your input on whether or not you think that having scheduledchats hosted on the tips site would be useful or not. I know Ron Kussehosts a chat session on FAOL --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Feb 5 18:58:17 2002 g160wG817654 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:58:16 -0600 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Taper Spread sheet --------------2E7037E0C3C7A7387EA4B969 All,thanks for the tips and advise. I'm still going to try a simplerspreadsheet but I am now armed with some neat ideas! I will keep you upto date on what I eventually come up with,Thanks again,Shawn Shawn Pineo wrote: All,I am still struggling to develop a taper spreadsheet I am happywith so I can input, save, print and share all my tapers easily, I amsick of the disorganized mess of tapers I have scattered about and thehassle it becomes to share these tapers.I have decided I want a simple layout similar to the one on theRodmakers tapers page (a title, blurb about the rod, a list ofdimensions, perhaps a form setting?, and a simple stress graph)I want to make a template, most likely in Excel, that I can justinput the dimensions and the program will auto generate the graph.This got me thinking....What kind of formula am I going to have toinput to get the stress curve graph?? And what information will I needto fill that formula??Thanks,Shawn --------------2E7037E0C3C7A7387EA4B969 All, still going to try a simpler spreadsheet but I am now armed with some neat Thanks again, ShawnShawn Pineo wrote:All, developa taper spreadsheet I am happy with so I can input, save, print and shareall my tapers easily, I am sick of the disorganized mess of tapers I havescattered about and the hassle it becomes to share these tapers. to the one on the Rodmakers tapers page (a title, blurb about the rod,a list of dimensions, perhaps a form setting?, and a simple stress graph) Excel, that I can just input the dimensions and the program will auto generate to have to input to get the stress curve graph?? And what information willI need to fill that formula?? Thanks, Shawn --------------2E7037E0C3C7A7387EA4B969-- from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Feb 5 19:02:50 2002 g1612o819413 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:02:50 -0600 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Chatroom Anyone in there?? Or am I not doing something right??? Shawn from piscator@macatawa.org Tue Feb 5 19:34:07 2002 g161Y6829704 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:34:06 -0600 Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Make your carrier (form) with a 60 degree groove and use a 1/2" straightrouter bit. Cheaper and easier to maintain angles, I think> Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits All-Does anybody know where to get the best router bits with 60 and 45dergreeconfigurations for rough milling cane? I was entertaining the thought ofbuilding a finish mill, but I have come to the conclusion that with the time and money that it would take to get to where I would want to be I couldprobably buy an awesome lathe, truck load of cane and hand plane about100rods. So, maybe I can slap together a rough straight tapering mill based on a router and get to the business of building rods. Any help is much appreciated. TIA,Eamon _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Tue Feb 5 19:48:27 2002 g161mQ803455 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:48:26 -0600 Subject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Barry, No one had mentioned the Table Rock Lake tailwaters at Branson. Granted itdoes get crowded on a nice day, but there are plenty of fish. Again, beready to pack up when the sirens go off. There is a web site and aautomated telephone number to call for estimated power releases from thedams on the White River and others. If you are fishing one of the poweregeneration tailwaters, it is a good idea to know in advance when to hit theriver and about how much time you will have. http://www.swpa.gov/generation.htm Have fun, KurtNixa, MO -----Original Message----- Subject: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Hope no one objects to this non-bamboo question.... Though I live in Central Missouri I haven't fished the tailwaters in N. Arkansas and S. Missouri since I was a kid. Kind of stupid really, but let'snot go into that....I recall several people on the list mentioning this arearecently so I thought you might help me out here on a specific question. Ilike wading much more than boating - where are the good places to wade inthis area, if any? I'm used to slippery rocks (have cleats) and to wadingfast water, so it needn't be easy wading, just survivable. I plan to go in acouple of weeks. Answers off list or on are welcome. Also, feel free toshare good places to stay and to send several dozen of your secret killerfly (not that it will probably work for me). Thanks in advance! Barry Kling from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Feb 5 20:09:59 2002 g1629w809098 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:09:58 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:messageSubject: RE: Taper Spread sheet Thread-Topic: Taper Spread sheetThread-Index: AcGujAfQveAYHhp9Eda4IgBglOouXwAJOUfw I'd be very happy if you just exported each taper in two lines of ASCII, =with a CR at the end of each. The first line would the name of each =field, separated by commas. (Actually it would be slightly easier if the =stations were simply the number without the "Sta" string, so that they =could be used as numbers in constructing a graph, but it's no big deal.) =The second line would be the value of each field for this taper, also =comma delimited. About the only formatting you'd need to do is to strip =any commas from the text in the fields. If you allowed multiple tapers =to be exported at once (say, all those tagged in the Browse the Rod File =view), there'd be an additional line for each one. A simple ASCII file like this can be imported by most programs including =Excel and any serious database app, and it's one hell of a lot easier =than keeping up with the changing formats of other applications. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Taper Spread sheet Barry: Thanks for your kind words about v3.0 Gold. Yes, the program can export =to Excel, and It is already hard coded in there, but I decided to not =include that capability and the capability to export to html in v3.0 =Gold. There were some issues as to formatting. If you will get me a standard that you all would like to see as far as =how it will export to excel, and what data fields you want exported, I =will do a maintenance release of the program. The export to html is also hard coded into the program, but on the =advice of some of the test teams I didn't put it in v3.0 Gold yet =either. It will actually export to html and format a web page as to = I have had a lot of fun writing the program, and look forward to future =releases. Joe I really like Joe's program, too, and am a paid V3.0 user. He's done a =real service to all of us, and if we all paid for a copy he might even =approach minimum wage for the time it took him.Or Joe, if it would export a taper even in a very simple format like =comma delimited ASCII (you wouldn't even need the distance from tip, =just start with the tip dimension and it would be implicit that the rest =were at 5" intervals), Excel and most every other program could import =it. 0DocumentEmail Joe – I’d be very happy if you just exported each taper in two =lines of ASCII,with a CR at the end of each. The first line would the name of each =field,separated by commas. (Actually it would be slightly easier if the =stations weresimply the number without the “Sta” string, so that they =could be used asnumbers in constructing a graph, but it’s no big deal.) The second =line wouldbe the value of each field for this taper, also comma delimited. About =the onlyformatting you’d need to do is to strip any commas from the text =in the fields.If you allowed multiple tapers to be exported at once (say, all those =tagged inthe Browse the Rod File view), there’d be an additional line for =each one. A simple ASCII file like this can be imported by most programs =includingExcel and any serious database app, and it’s one hell of a lot =easier thankeeping up with the changing formats of other =applications. Barry -----OriginalMessage-----From: Bamboo Joe Sent: Tuesday, February=05, 20023:27 PM KlingB@health.missouri.edu;rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Taper Spread=sheet Barry: Thanks for your kind words about v3.0 = Yes, the program can export to Excel, and It is already hard coded in =there,but I decided to not include that capability and the capability to =export to formatting. If you will get me a standard that you all =would liketo see as far as how it will export to excel, and what data fields you =wantexported, I will do a maintenance release of the =program. The export to html is also hard coded into theprogram, but on the advice of some of the test teams I didn't put it in =v3.0 page asto what tapers you currently have. I have had a lot of fun writing the program, =and lookforward to future releases. Joe I really like Joe's program, too, and am a =paid V3.0 user.He's done a real service to all of us, and if we all paid for a copy he =mighteven approach minimum wage for the time it took =him. Or Joe, if it would =exporta taper even in a very simple format like comma delimited ASCII (you =wouldn'teven need the distance from tip, just start with the tip dimension and =it wouldbe implicit that the rest were at 5" intervals), Excel and most =everyother program could import it. from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Feb 5 20:25:42 2002 g162Pg813093 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:25:42 -0600 Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:25:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Chatroom FILETIME=[8FC9B880:01C1AEB5] You got thru here.... john ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Chatroom Anyone in there?? Or am I not doing something right??? Shawn You gotthru h= Pineo Sent: Tuesday, February 05,2002= rodmakers@mail.=wustl.edu Subject: righ=t???Shawn from kgaucher@midmaine.com Tue Feb 5 20:29:01 2002 g162T0813924 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:29:00 -0600 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:29:13 -0500 Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Eamon, check at your local hardware or Home Depot. I bought a 60 degree bitwith two flutes and a straight carbide bit with three flutes. I made a jigthat screws into my router table in the screw holes that are there for therouter fence, just a piece of 3/4 wood (I used oak) that was 12" x 12". Cuta hole large enough for your 3 fluted bit to come up through. (1") I tooksome of that white cutting board material, because it's sort of naturallylubricated, smooth, and put three grooves in it with the 60 deg. bit. Oneshallow and the others progressively larger. I backed it with a piece ofoak, 3/4 x 2 x 6. I screwed that down onto the 12" x 12" so the grooves arefacing the bit. One screw holds the guide fast, Make the screw hole at theother end so you can slide the guide closer to or further away from thefence you made. Then I made two hold downs, one on the infeed and one ontheout, that are held against the fence with springs, that holds the stripagainst the fence. Very simple to make and inexpensive, and best of all, itworks great. Get To Work, Kento----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Make your carrier (form) with a 60 degree groove and use a 1/2" straightrouter bit. Cheaper and easier to maintain angles, I think> Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Eamon Lee" Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 5:44 PMSubject: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits All-Does anybody know where to get the best router bits with 60 and 45 dergree configurations for rough milling cane? I was entertaining the thought ofbuilding a finish mill, but I have come to the conclusion that with the time and money that it would take to get to where I would want to be I couldprobably buy an awesome lathe, truck load of cane and hand plane about 100 rods. So, maybe I can slap together a rough straight tapering mill based on a router and get to the business of building rods. Any help is much appreciated. TIA,Eamon _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Feb 5 20:39:48 2002 g162dk816757 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:39:47 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:messageSubject: RE: Taper Spread sheet Thread-Topic: Taper Spread sheetThread-Index: AcGujAfQveAYHhp9Eda4IgBglOouXwAJOUfwAAG4LoA= Whoops, I just discovered it already can do this. Way to go, Joe! Sorry =to bother you with it....Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Taper Spread sheet I'd be very happy if you just exported each taper in two lines of ASCII, =with a CR at the end of each. The first line would the name of each =field, separated by commas. (Actually it would be slightly easier if the =stations were simply the number without the "Sta" string, so that they =could be used as numbers in constructing a graph, but it's no big deal.) =The second line would be the value of each field for this taper, also =comma delimited. About the only formatting you'd need to do is to strip =any commas from the text in the fields. If you allowed multiple tapers =to be exported at once (say, all those tagged in the Browse the Rod File =view), there'd be an additional line for each one. A simple ASCII file like this can be imported by most programs including =Excel and any serious database app, and it's one hell of a lot easier =than keeping up with the changing formats of other applications. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Taper Spread sheet Barry: Thanks for your kind words about v3.0 Gold. Yes, the program can export =to Excel, and It is already hard coded in there, but I decided to not =include that capability and the capability to export to html in v3.0 =Gold. There were some issues as to formatting. If you will get me a standard that you all would like to see as far as =how it will export to excel, and what data fields you want exported, I =will do a maintenance release of the program. The export to html is also hard coded into the program, but on the =advice of some of the test teams I didn't put it in v3.0 Gold yet =either. It will actually export to html and format a web page as to = I have had a lot of fun writing the program, and look forward to future =releases. Joe I really like Joe's program, too, and am a paid V3.0 user. He's done a =real service to all of us, and if we all paid for a copy he might even =approach minimum wage for the time it took him.Or Joe, if it would export a taper even in a very simple format like =comma delimited ASCII (you wouldn't even need the distance from tip, =just start with the tip dimension and it would be implicit that the rest =were at 5" intervals), Excel and most every other program could import =it. 0DocumentEmail I really like Joe's program, too, and am a paid V3.0 user. He's done a = realservice to all of us, and if we all paid for a copy he might even = approachminimum wage for the time it took him. Or Joe, if it would export a tapereven in a very simple format like = comma delimited ASCII (you wouldn't evenneed the distance from tip, = just start with the tip dimension and it wouldbe implicit that the rest =were at 5" intervals), Excel and most every other program could import =it. 0DocumentEmail @font-face { font-family: Tahoma;}@page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; =mso-header-margin: .5in; mso-footer- margin: .5in; mso-paper-source: 0; }P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style- parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT- FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast- font-family: "Times New Roman"}LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}SPAN.EmailStyle15 { COLOR: navy; mso-style-type: personal-reply; mso-ansi-font-size: =10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; =mso-bidi-font-family: Arial}DIV.Section1 { page: Section1} Barry: and It is already hard coded in there, but I decided to not include that = some issues as to formatting. will get me a standard that you all would like to see as far as how it = export to excel, and what data fields you want exported, I will do a = release of the program. export to html is also hard coded into the program, but on the advice of = export to html and format a web page as to what tapers you currently = releases. Joe like Joe=92s program, too, and am a paid V3.0 user. He=92s done a real = all of us, and if we all paid for a copy he might even approach minimum = the time it took him. Joe, if it would export a taper even in a very simple format like = delimited ASCII (you wouldn=92t even need the distance from tip, just = it. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Feb 5 15:46:40 2002 g15Lkd826064 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:46:39 -0600 (authenticated) Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:48:07 -0800 Subject: Re: Scheduled chat?? Todd, I'm not sure how many of us are really aware of the Thursday night FAOLbamboo chat. In fact, John Channer and I are the only two from this list(that I know about, at least) that have been semi-regular lately. Seemslike Reed, and maybe one or two others have stopped by occasionally. Ijust found it and got involved a few months back. I think lots of us mightenjoy it. Harry Todd Talsma wrote: All, I'd like your input on whether or not you think that having scheduledchats hosted on the tips site would be useful or not. I know Ron Kussehosts a chat session on FAOL --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from jvswan@earthlink.net Tue Feb 5 15:46:42 2002 g15Lke826073 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:46:40 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108Subject: Re: Scheduled chat?? Todd, I think a chat would be great. One word of caution, though. With so manypeople with so many different connection speeds and system configurations,and, of course, so many different opinions, I think it would be wise to makesure that the chats be well moderated to allow people time to expressthemselves without the frustration of getting cut off or ignored. A goodtopic du jour, so to speak, would also be helpful. Hope this goes together. I think it would be pretty cool to have a chat on,say, Tony Spezio's soaking method for strip pre-work or on better ways toget more accurate strips in less amount of time. Or how about bindingmethods or ammonia toning. Wow, I'm already getting excited. Jason On 2/5/02 2:24 PM, "Todd Talsma" wrote: All, I'd like your input on whether or not you think that having scheduledchats hosted on the tips site would be useful or not. I know Ron Kussehosts a chat session on FAOL, but I'm just thinking of more, maybe evenregional chats would be useful. Thanks for your input. from eamon_lee@hotmail.com Tue Feb 5 16:44:54 2002 g15Mir809939 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:44:53 -0600 Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:44:48 -0800 Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:44:47 GMT Subject: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits FILETIME=[B720EBC0:01C1AE96] All-Does anybody know where to get the best router bits with 60 and 45 dergree configurations for rough milling cane? I was entertaining the thought of building a finish mill, but I have come to the conclusion that with the time and money that it would take to get to where I would want to be I could probably buy an awesome lathe, truck load of cane and hand plane about 100 rods. So, maybe I can slap together a rough straight tapering mill based on a router and get to the business of building rods. Any help is much appreciated. TIA,Eamon _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from flytyr@southshore.com Tue Feb 5 17:17:26 2002 g15NHQ817256 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:17:26 -0600 g15NHKo20254; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:17:20 -0600 Rodmakers List-serv Subject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Don't be telling everyone about Buffalo Shoals. I would not do that when allthese list members are reading your message. LOLThat is a real nice place on the White. The best fly for that area is the ChiliPepper.Just thought I would post this to the list.Walking down the track trail is now a No NO. The people that bought theproperty have posted the trail area and really enforce it. There has been acouple of incidents that got some trespassersarrested. Walking the tracks is also not permitted.When I fish the shoals, we put in at Buffalo City and motor up to the shoals.Barry will get back to you off list.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com "Kling, Barry W." wrote: Thanks, Greg. You guys are truly excellent, I asked the question just a littlewhile ago and already have enough good information for about a year offishing....BK -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 1:32 PM Cc: KlingB@health.missouri.edu; Rodmakers List-servSubject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking And by all means, be sure you're headed to the side you want to be on whenthe water goes up, because it's a long walk otherwise.To add in my $.02- -I've had a lot of good results with #12 olive BH wooly buggers, and 12 or 14BH fox squirrel nymphs. I've had the best results on falling water levelsfishing a tight swing through pockets.One other spot on the White-go to Buffalo Shoals-lots of wadable pocketwater. It's about a half mile walk up the railroad bed from the Buffalo Cityaccess, if I remember correctly. from channer@frontier.net Tue Feb 5 17:56:10 2002 g15Nu9826156 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:56:09 -0600 Subject: Re: Winston flick Patrick;I don't want to start, or continue a pissing contest either, but asking bit much. It's not high tech, doesn't require any tools other than apencil, a tape measure and some figuring. And I wasn't chastising you inparticular. I know the purpose of this list is to share information, butsometimes it seems that no one is thinking for himself anymore. Sorry ifyou took it personally.john "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: who said anything about anybody handing anything to anybody? You shouldreadbefore you comment. Why don't you go to china and cut your own cane,whyrely on some one else to do it for you, Why don't you cast and form yourownnickel silver tubing and wire, why rely on some one to hand it to you. Iassume that you made your own cold roll steel for your hand made planningforms and didn't let some steel dealer hand it to you and some one elsemakethe forms for you and it goes without saying that you made your own flyline. Some of us don't have the expertise and facilities or materials tomake some of the things that we need, those of us who do make our ownandthose that don't buy them. This wasn't intended to start another pissingcontest it just seems this world has to many people who chastise otherswhenthey haven't walked in their shoes. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 5:18 PMCc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Winston flick Guys;So why does someone else have to hand it to you, figure your own out andmake it for yourself. I realize that this sounds like something thatTerry would say, but he happens to be right about a few things. I mean,jeez, you gotta be able to do some of the brain work for yourselves.john(flame away, asbestos britches in place) "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: It would be great to have that length chart he used to mark where to cut for node spacing. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the featheryedgeof the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at theseand mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say askme!).Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Feb 5 18:47:57 2002 g160lu814080 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:47:56 -0600 Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:49:21 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Scheduled chat?? Todd,sounds great, I used to go to FAOL chat faithfully till thingsstarted getting silly and not bamboo related. Also didn't care for some of the"holier than thou" attitudes of some of the regulars. Did meet some goodpeoplethere though, talked to John quite a bit back then.Keep up the great work Todd, Shawn Harry Boyd wrote: Todd, I'm not sure how many of us are really aware of the Thursday night FAOLbamboo chat. In fact, John Channer and I are the only two from this list(that I know about, at least) that have been semi-regular lately. Seemslike Reed, and maybe one or two others have stopped by occasionally. Ijust found it and got involved a few months back. I think lots of us mightenjoy it. Harry Todd Talsma wrote: All, I'd like your input on whether or not you think that having scheduledchats hosted on the tips site would be useful or not. I know Ron Kussehosts a chat session on FAOL --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Feb 5 18:58:17 2002 g160wG817654 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:58:16 -0600 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Taper Spread sheet --------------2E7037E0C3C7A7387EA4B969 All,thanks for the tips and advise. I'm still going to try a simplerspreadsheet but I am now armed with some neat ideas! I will keep you upto date on what I eventually come up with,Thanks again,Shawn Shawn Pineo wrote: All,I am still struggling to develop a taper spreadsheet I am happywith so I can input, save, print and share all my tapers easily, I amsick of the disorganized mess of tapers I have scattered about and thehassle it becomes to share these tapers.I have decided I want a simple layout similar to the one on theRodmakers tapers page (a title, blurb about the rod, a list ofdimensions, perhaps a form setting?, and a simple stress graph)I want to make a template, most likely in Excel, that I can justinput the dimensions and the program will auto generate the graph.This got me thinking....What kind of formula am I going to have toinput to get the stress curve graph?? And what information will I needto fill that formula??Thanks,Shawn --------------2E7037E0C3C7A7387EA4B969 All, still going to try a simpler spreadsheet but I am now armed with some neat Thanks again, ShawnShawn Pineo wrote:All, developa taper spreadsheet I am happy with so I can input, save, print and shareall my tapers easily, I am sick of the disorganized mess of tapers I havescattered about and the hassle it becomes to share these tapers. to the one on the Rodmakers tapers page (a title, blurb about the rod,a list of dimensions, perhaps a form setting?, and a simple stress graph) Excel, that I can just input the dimensions and the program will auto generate to have to input to get the stress curve graph?? And what information willI need to fill that formula?? Thanks, Shawn --------------2E7037E0C3C7A7387EA4B969-- from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Feb 5 19:02:50 2002 g1612o819413 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:02:50 -0600 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Chatroom Anyone in there?? Or am I not doing something right??? Shawn from piscator@macatawa.org Tue Feb 5 19:34:07 2002 g161Y6829704 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:34:06 -0600 Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Make your carrier (form) with a 60 degree groove and use a 1/2" straightrouter bit. Cheaper and easier to maintain angles, I think> Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits All-Does anybody know where to get the best router bits with 60 and 45dergreeconfigurations for rough milling cane? I was entertaining the thought ofbuilding a finish mill, but I have come to the conclusion that with the time and money that it would take to get to where I would want to be I couldprobably buy an awesome lathe, truck load of cane and hand plane about100rods. So, maybe I can slap together a rough straight tapering mill based on a router and get to the business of building rods. Any help is much appreciated. TIA,Eamon _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Tue Feb 5 19:48:27 2002 g161mQ803455 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:48:26 -0600 Subject: Re: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Barry, No one had mentioned the Table Rock Lake tailwaters at Branson. Granted itdoes get crowded on a nice day, but there are plenty of fish. Again, beready to pack up when the sirens go off. There is a web site and aautomated telephone number to call for estimated power releases from thedams on the White River and others. If you are fishing one of the poweregeneration tailwaters, it is a good idea to know in advance when to hit theriver and about how much time you will have. http://www.swpa.gov/generation.htm Have fun, KurtNixa, MO -----Original Message----- Subject: Wading N. Ark Tailwaters -- Warning: Not Rodmaking Hope no one objects to this non-bamboo question.... Though I live in Central Missouri I haven't fished the tailwaters in N. Arkansas and S. Missouri since I was a kid. Kind of stupid really, but let'snot go into that....I recall several people on the list mentioning this arearecently so I thought you might help me out here on a specific question. Ilike wading much more than boating - where are the good places to wade inthis area, if any? I'm used to slippery rocks (have cleats) and to wadingfast water, so it needn't be easy wading, just survivable. I plan to go in acouple of weeks. Answers off list or on are welcome. Also, feel free toshare good places to stay and to send several dozen of your secret killerfly (not that it will probably work for me). Thanks in advance! Barry Kling from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Feb 5 20:09:59 2002 g1629w809098 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:09:58 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:messageSubject: RE: Taper Spread sheet Thread-Topic: Taper Spread sheetThread-Index: AcGujAfQveAYHhp9Eda4IgBglOouXwAJOUfw I'd be very happy if you just exported each taper in two lines of ASCII, =with a CR at the end of each. The first line would the name of each =field, separated by commas. (Actually it would be slightly easier if the =stations were simply the number without the "Sta" string, so that they =could be used as numbers in constructing a graph, but it's no big deal.) =The second line would be the value of each field for this taper, also =comma delimited. About the only formatting you'd need to do is to strip =any commas from the text in the fields. If you allowed multiple tapers =to be exported at once (say, all those tagged in the Browse the Rod File =view), there'd be an additional line for each one. A simple ASCII file like this can be imported by most programs including =Excel and any serious database app, and it's one hell of a lot easier =than keeping up with the changing formats of other applications. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Taper Spread sheet Barry: Thanks for your kind words about v3.0 Gold. Yes, the program can export =to Excel, and It is already hard coded in there, but I decided to not =include that capability and the capability to export to html in v3.0 =Gold. There were some issues as to formatting. If you will get me a standard that you all would like to see as far as =how it will export to excel, and what data fields you want exported, I =will do a maintenance release of the program. The export to html is also hard coded into the program, but on the =advice of some of the test teams I didn't put it in v3.0 Gold yet =either. It will actually export to html and format a web page as to = I have had a lot of fun writing the program, and look forward to future =releases. Joe I really like Joe's program, too, and am a paid V3.0 user. He's done a =real service to all of us, and if we all paid for a copy he might even =approach minimum wage for the time it took him.Or Joe, if it would export a taper even in a very simple format like =comma delimited ASCII (you wouldn't even need the distance from tip, =just start with the tip dimension and it would be implicit that the rest =were at 5" intervals), Excel and most every other program could import =it. 0DocumentEmail Joe – I’d be very happy if you just exported each taper in two =lines of ASCII,with a CR at the end of each. The first line would the name of each =field,separated by commas. (Actually it would be slightly easier if the =stations weresimply the number without the “Sta” string, so that they =could be used asnumbers in constructing a graph, but it’s no big deal.) The second =line wouldbe the value of each field for this taper, also comma delimited. About =the onlyformatting you’d need to do is to strip any commas from the text =in the fields.If you allowed multiple tapers to be exported at once (say, all those =tagged inthe Browse the Rod File view), there’d be an additional line for =each one. A simple ASCII file like this can be imported by most programs =includingExcel and any serious database app, and it’s one hell of a lot =easier thankeeping up with the changing formats of other =applications. Barry -----OriginalMessage-----From: Bamboo Joe Sent: Tuesday, February=05, 20023:27 PM KlingB@health.missouri.edu;rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Taper Spread=sheet Barry: Thanks for your kind words about v3.0 = Yes, the program can export to Excel, and It is already hard coded in =there,but I decided to not include that capability and the capability to =export to formatting. If you will get me a standard that you all =would liketo see as far as how it will export to excel, and what data fields you =wantexported, I will do a maintenance release of the =program. The export to html is also hard coded into theprogram, but on the advice of some of the test teams I didn't put it in =v3.0 page asto what tapers you currently have. I have had a lot of fun writing the program, =and lookforward to future releases. Joe I really like Joe's program, too, and am a =paid V3.0 user.He's done a real service to all of us, and if we all paid for a copy he =mighteven approach minimum wage for the time it took =him. Or Joe, if it would =exporta taper even in a very simple format like comma delimited ASCII (you =wouldn'teven need the distance from tip, just start with the tip dimension and =it wouldbe implicit that the rest were at 5" intervals), Excel and most =everyother program could import it. from JNL123141@msn.com Tue Feb 5 20:25:42 2002 g162Pg813093 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:25:42 -0600 Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:25:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Chatroom FILETIME=[8FC9B880:01C1AEB5] You got thru here.... john ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Chatroom Anyone in there?? Or am I not doing something right??? Shawn You gotthru h= Pineo Sent: Tuesday, February 05,2002= rodmakers@mail.=wustl.edu Subject: righ=t???Shawn from kgaucher@midmaine.com Tue Feb 5 20:29:01 2002 g162T0813924 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:29:00 -0600 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:29:13 -0500 Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Eamon, check at your local hardware or Home Depot. I bought a 60 degree bitwith two flutes and a straight carbide bit with three flutes. I made a jigthat screws into my router table in the screw holes that are there for therouter fence, just a piece of 3/4 wood (I used oak) that was 12" x 12". Cuta hole large enough for your 3 fluted bit to come up through. (1") I tooksome of that white cutting board material, because it's sort of naturallylubricated, smooth, and put three grooves in it with the 60 deg. bit. Oneshallow and the others progressively larger. I backed it with a piece ofoak, 3/4 x 2 x 6. I screwed that down onto the 12" x 12" so the grooves arefacing the bit. One screw holds the guide fast, Make the screw hole at theother end so you can slide the guide closer to or further away from thefence you made. Then I made two hold downs, one on the infeed and one ontheout, that are held against the fence with springs, that holds the stripagainst the fence. Very simple to make and inexpensive, and best of all, itworks great. Get To Work, Kento----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Make your carrier (form) with a 60 degree groove and use a 1/2" straightrouter bit. Cheaper and easier to maintain angles, I think> Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Eamon Lee" Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 5:44 PMSubject: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits All-Does anybody know where to get the best router bits with 60 and 45 dergree configurations for rough milling cane? I was entertaining the thought ofbuilding a finish mill, but I have come to the conclusion that with the time and money that it would take to get to where I would want to be I couldprobably buy an awesome lathe, truck load of cane and hand plane about 100 rods. So, maybe I can slap together a rough straight tapering mill based on a router and get to the business of building rods. Any help is much appreciated. TIA,Eamon _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Feb 5 20:39:48 2002 g162dk816757 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:39:47 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:messageSubject: RE: Taper Spread sheet Thread-Topic: Taper Spread sheetThread-Index: AcGujAfQveAYHhp9Eda4IgBglOouXwAJOUfwAAG4LoA= Whoops, I just discovered it already can do this. Way to go, Joe! Sorry =to bother you with it....Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Taper Spread sheet I'd be very happy if you just exported each taper in two lines of ASCII, =with a CR at the end of each. The first line would the name of each =field, separated by commas. (Actually it would be slightly easier if the =stations were simply the number without the "Sta" string, so that they =could be used as numbers in constructing a graph, but it's no big deal.) =The second line would be the value of each field for this taper, also =comma delimited. About the only formatting you'd need to do is to strip =any commas from the text in the fields. If you allowed multiple tapers =to be exported at once (say, all those tagged in the Browse the Rod File =view), there'd be an additional line for each one. A simple ASCII file like this can be imported by most programs including =Excel and any serious database app, and it's one hell of a lot easier =than keeping up with the changing formats of other applications. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Taper Spread sheet Barry: Thanks for your kind words about v3.0 Gold. Yes, the program can export =to Excel, and It is already hard coded in there, but I decided to not =include that capability and the capability to export to html in v3.0 =Gold. There were some issues as to formatting. If you will get me a standard that you all would like to see as far as =how it will export to excel, and what data fields you want exported, I =will do a maintenance release of the program. The export to html is also hard coded into the program, but on the =advice of some of the test teams I didn't put it in v3.0 Gold yet =either. It will actually export to html and format a web page as to = I have had a lot of fun writing the program, and look forward to future =releases. Joe I really like Joe's program, too, and am a paid V3.0 user. He's done a =real service to all of us, and if we all paid for a copy he might even =approach minimum wage for the time it took him.Or Joe, if it would export a taper even in a very simple format like =comma delimited ASCII (you wouldn't even need the distance from tip, =just start with the tip dimension and it would be implicit that the rest =were at 5" intervals), Excel and most every other program could import =it. 0DocumentEmail Whoops, I just discovered it already can do this. Way to go, Joe! =Sorryto bother you withit….Barry -----OriginalMessage-----From: Kling, Barry W. = Sent: Tuesday, February=05, 20028:13 PM 'rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu'Subject: RE: Taper Spread=sheet Joe – = I’d be very happy if you just exported =each taper intwo lines of ASCII, with a CR at the end of each. The first line would =the nameof each field, separated by commas. (Actually it would be slightly =easier ifthe stations were simply the number without the “Sta” =string, so that theycould be used as numbers in constructing a graph, but it’s no big =deal.) Thesecond line would be the value of each field for this taper, also commadelimited. About the only formatting you’d need to do is to strip =any commas from the text in the fields. If you allowed multiple tapers to be =exported atonce (say, all those tagged in the Browse the Rod File view), =there’d be anadditional line for each one. A simple ASCII file like this can be imported = programs including Excel and any serious database app, and it’s =one hell of alot easier than keeping up with the changing formats of other =applications. Barry -----OriginalMessage-----From: Bamboo Joe Sent: Tuesday, February=05, 20023:27 PM KlingB@health.missouri.edu;rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Taper Spread=sheet Barry: Thanks for your kind words about v3.0 = Yes, the program can export to Excel, and It is already hard coded in =there, butI decided to not include that capability and the capability to export to =html formatting. If you will get me a standard that you all =would liketo see as far as how it will export to excel, and what data fields you =wantexported, I will do a maintenance release of the =program. The export to html is also hard coded into theprogram, but on the advice of some of the test teams I didn't put it in =v3.0 page asto what tapers you currently have. I have had a lot of fun writing the program, =and lookforward to future releases. Joe I really like Joe's program, too, and am a =paid V3.0user. He's done a real service to all of us, and if we all paid for a =copy hemight even approach minimum wage for the time it took =him. Or Joe, if it would =exporta taper even in a very simple format like comma delimited ASCII (you =wouldn'teven need the distance from tip, just start with the tip dimension and =it wouldbe implicit that the rest were at 5" intervals), Excel and most =everyother program could import it. from oakmere@carol.net Tue Feb 5 20:41:30 2002 g162fT817298 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:41:29 -0600 g162fJQ24379 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:41:23 -0500 Subject: RE: PSU Hi Troy: Damn, we got some guys that bleed Blue and White on this list? Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutBeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 from rextutor@yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 22:07:11 2002 g1647A807042 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:07:10 -0600 05 Feb 2002 20:07:09 PST Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits I like Woodline Arizona, Inc. (WOODBITS.COM). Goodprice and have had no problems with bit use. good luck--- Eamon Lee wrote: All-Does anybody know where to get the best router bitswith 60 and 45 dergree configurations for rough milling cane? I wasentertaining the thought of building a finish mill, but I have come to theconclusion that with the time and money that it would take to get to where I wouldwant to be I could probably buy an awesome lathe, truck load of caneand hand plane about 100 rods. So, maybe I can slap together a rough straighttapering mill based on a router and get to the business of building rods. Any help is much appreciated. TIA,Eamon _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from homes-sold@attbi.com Wed Feb 6 05:05:01 2002 g16B50820287 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:05:00 -0600 ;Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:04:54 +0000 Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits I have a 12" Portable Power Plane. Running the strips pith side up makesthem all the same thickness. Make the thickness slightly more than thetarget dimension of your strips. Make a light weight wood adjustable, 5" centers, starter angle form, 30Ÿ- 52Ÿstarter groove on one side and 60Ÿ groove on the other side. Make the formlength to suit your needs. Needless to say, make the from thickness largeenough so you will not plane the adjusting bolts. If this happens, it willnot enhance your day. Adjust the Power Plane to feed the form but not plane it. Run the form and all the strips through the Power Plane on the starter side.Turn the form over to the 60Ÿ side and run all the strips through for thesecond pass. Best power feed beveler I've ever used! ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Make your carrier (form) with a 60 degree groove and use a 1/2" straightrouter bit. Cheaper and easier to maintain angles, I think> Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits All-Does anybody know where to get the best router bits with 60 and 45dergreeconfigurations for rough milling cane? I was entertaining the thought ofbuilding a finish mill, but I have come to the conclusion that with the time and money that it would take to get to where I would want to be I couldprobably buy an awesome lathe, truck load of cane and hand plane about100rods. So, maybe I can slap together a rough straight tapering mill based on a router and get to the business of building rods. Any help is much appreciated. TIA,Eamon _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed Feb 6 07:28:32 2002 g16DSV823364 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:28:31 -0600 Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Don, So are you saying that you can do this in 1 pass on each side? Seems like that is a lot of material to hog off, even if yourstrips are close to size to begin with.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. Don Schneider wrote: Adjust the Power Plane to feed the form but not plane it. Run the form and all the strips through the Power Plane on the starterside.Turn the form over to the 60Ÿ side and run all the strips through for thesecond pass. Best power feed beveler I've ever used! from dongreife@hotmail.com Wed Feb 6 07:44:04 2002 g16Di3823838 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:44:03 -0600 Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:43:58 -0800 HTTP; Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:43:57 GMT Subject: Bamboo DING Repairs FILETIME=[53A789E0:01C1AF14] Had a fellow ask me if it was possible to repair a "deep" ding in a cane rod. Told him I didn't know, but would find out. Went through my junk pile and found a butt section with a ding about .010/.015 deep across one flat. Like a knife cut (two whacks close together). Need your comments on my solution...First, it seemed apparent that the ding had severed the power fibers to that depth. So,I used a sharp scraper to 'dish out' the ding just to the bottom of the cut. The dish was about 3/4" long. I found another cane scrap ,about the same color and diameter as the first and planed off a strip of power fibers that were as deep as I could push my 9 1/2 through, and epoxyed the strip into the dished out area. Then sanded it flat with the 'ding cover' smooth. Q: Can you see the patch? A: Of course. Q: How does it look? A: Kinda like a small bird flew over and dropped something on it and all of it didn't wipe off. Q: Was this a waste of time, or is there a better way? A: Hope you guys got some answers. Don Greife _________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com from CAIrvinerods@aol.com Wed Feb 6 10:01:56 2002 g16G1t829906 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:01:55 -0600 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:01:44 - Subject: Ding"s I have used a hot iron and a damp cloth to raise dents in gun stocks and to some extent in bamboo. If the fibers are cut it probably will not work as well but what the heck, give it a try. Chuck I have used a hot iron and a damp cloth to raisedents in gun stocks and to some extent in bamboo. If the fibers are cut itprobably will not work as well but what the heck, give it a try. Chuck from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Wed Feb 6 10:18:38 2002 g16GIb800933 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:18:37 -0600 g16GLY328853; Subject: Re: Ding"s I'd probably put a repair wrap over the patch and run it to either side =some distance, depending on the severity of the 'ding.' Brian Subject: Ding"s I have used a hot iron and a damp cloth to raise dents in gun stocks =and to some extent in bamboo. If the fibers are cut it probably will not =work as well but what the heck, give it a try. I'd probably put a repair wrap over the= 'ding.' Brian ----- Original Message ----- CAIrvinerods@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 06, = AMSubject: Ding"sI have used a hot iron and a damp cloth to raise = gun stocks and to some extent in bamboo. If the fibers are cut it = will not work as well but what the heck, give it a = from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Wed Feb 6 10:19:55 2002 g16GJs801133 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:19:55 -0600 g16GMv329023 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:22:57 -0500 Subject: New e-mail address Just switched to a cable modem and have a new e-mail address Brian Just switched to a cable modem andhave = e-mail address Brian from tedknott@cogeco.ca Wed Feb 6 11:03:42 2002 g16H3g803866 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:03:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Bamboo DING Repairs If the "ding" is in the butt section you may be able to patch it with epoxystained slightly to match the bamboo. Whether to make an invisible wrap, ornot, would depend on how badly splintered it is. I have a 7' 0" CCdeFrancethat came to me from England in a tube that was bent at nearly 90 degrees.The tip suffered a severe set which I corrected, but the butt had a majorfracture. I used pins to hold the splinters open, applied resorcinalliberally, and bound it with cord. The repair looked awful, so I sanded therepaired area down about .010"- .015" and glued on a thin "veneer" of powerfibres. The veneer was fitted to end under the intermediate wraps so itblends in well with the rest of the rod. This was done about 15 years agoand the rod still gets occasional use. from aebersold@ou.edu Wed Feb 6 11:06:39 2002 g16H6c804194 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:06:38 -0600 id ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:06:22 -0600 Subject: lathe question this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I've got my new lathe set up and will turn down the boo for the ferrulesthis weekend. Do you have suggestions on speed and tool angles. Thanks dennis I've got my new lathe set up and will turn down the and tool angles. Thanks from homes-sold@attbi.com Wed Feb 6 11:59:55 2002 g16Hxs807441 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:59:54 -0600 ;Wed, 6 Feb 2002 17:59:49 +0000 Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits To All, Yes, you can do the job in one pass per side when using the starter form andit is a one person operation. The key to doing this is planing the thickness of the strips just slightlythicker than your target dimension of the roughed strips before using thestarter form. Naturally the strips have to be split to reasonable width. Adjust the starter side depth so the enamel side of the strip is protrudingabove the form and the pith side is extending to but not beyond the slope ofthe groove. Don't worry about hogging out to much on one pass, the PP goesthrough bamboo like butter. The power feed rollers will force the strip downinto the groove and hold the strip securely. Result- 60Ÿ angle on 1st pass.Feed the rest of the strips. Turn the form over to the 60Ÿ groove side and don't adjust anything. Feed atest strip. If the planed strip is to large, close up the groove, DO NOTadjust the planer or you may plane your form. When satisfied, feed the restof the strips one at a time. Result- 60Ÿ rough beveled strips. I don't have any pictures or drawings of the adjustable starter form butwill make some if you wish. Contact me off list. The cross section of theform looks just like the starter form in Wayne's book but it is adjustablewith push/pull bolts. Tip:If you have used a Power Planer before you understand the term "Nipping".This may occur for the first 4 or 5 inches of the stock when being feed intothe planer. Position your strips back from the feed end of the starter formaccordingly. Good Luck, Don from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 12:28:14 2002 g16ISD808978 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:28:13 -0600 06 Feb 2002 10:28:07 PST Subject: guides - speakup quick ! i have these guides that were ordered in error.2/0 - 201/0 - 20sz1 - 18sz2 - 18sz3 - 2sz5 - 2 total 80 guides for 80 dollars. this includesshipping. let me know in a hurry! timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Feb 6 14:35:46 2002 g16KZj815130 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:35:45 -0600 (authenticated) Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:37:17 -0800 Subject: Re: guides - speakup quick ! Timothy, and all... I put together a group guide order several years ago. Iremember then that some of the guys ordered size 5 snakeguides. Guess I'm just nosy, but on what size rod would youneed a size 5 snake guide? Harry timothy troester wrote: sz5 - 2 --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 14:46:11 2002 g16KkA815950 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:46:10 -0600 Wed, 06 Feb 2002 12:46:10 PST Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Don, I replied to you direct. Am sending this so Harrysees it. I too am curious if someone has tried it fortapering and how its worked out. Bill W. --- Don Schneider wrote: Bill, I think you are correct, haven't tried it yet but itis on my list of thingsto do. I do think it would have to be done in twopasses so the power fiberswould be centered/paralleled, ( is that the correctterm?), in the strip.You could do it in one pass and come out with theright dimensions but thepower fibers would not be parallel to the strip. I think the tips would fare just fine once they areunder both feed rollsbecause the power feed rolls force the strip downinto the form and holdsthem securely. However, if the pressure of the firstfeed roll caused thetip strip to raise up before getting to the blade...its all over,toothpicks. Don't know how it would work feeding tipsections butt first,I'm guessing tear- out. Harry, You and I talked about this a few months ago.Did you try it and ifso, how did it come out?Don----- Original Message -----From: "Bill Walters" Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:06 AMSubject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Don, sounds to me like you could do tapered stripswith a setup like this. If you do them slightly oversize, wouldn't take much to finish 'em off in a formon the bench. Thinking this would work for the buttsection but wondering how doing tips would fare. Bill Walters--- Don Schneider wrote: To All, Yes, you can do the job in one pass per side whenusing the starter form andit is a one person operation. The key to doing this is planing the thickness ofthe strips just slightlythicker than your target dimension of the roughedstrips before using thestarter form. Naturally the strips have to be split to reasonable width. Adjust the starter side depth so the enamel side of the strip is protrudingabove the form and the pith side is extending to but not beyond the slope ofthe groove. Don't worry about hogging out to much on one pass, the PP goesthrough bamboo like butter. The power feed rollerswill force the strip downinto the groove and hold the strip securely. Result- 60Ÿ angle on 1st pass.Feed the rest of the strips. Turn the form over to the 60Ÿ groove side and don't adjust anything. Feed atest strip. If the planed strip is to large, closeup the groove, DO NOTadjust the planer or you may plane your form. Whensatisfied, feed the restof the strips one at a time. Result- 60Ÿ roughbeveled strips. I don't have any pictures or drawings of theadjustable starter form butwill make some if you wish. Contact me off list. The cross section of theform looks just like the starter form in Wayne'sbook but it is adjustablewith push/pull bolts. Tip:If you have used a Power Planer before youunderstand the term "Nipping".This may occur for the first 4 or 5 inches of thestock when being feed intothe planer. Position your strips back from the feed end of the starter formaccordingly. Good Luck, Don __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 15:03:16 2002 g16L3F816976 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:03:15 -0600 Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:03:11 PST Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Don, bet it would work for tapering of tips if youbuilt a shallow box that had the top routed out forthe form to fit in, with holes underneath and a portat the end to attach a shopvac to, thereby drawing avacuum on the form. Would just have to set it up sothe hose wouldn't be able to come in contact with theknives and shut off the planner as soon at the back ofthe form cleared the inside of the powerplanner,disconnect the shopvac, bring the jig back around thefront and start again. I've been wondering why someone doesn't come up witha simple powered version of the adjustable planningform without using a whole lot of expensive or timeconsuming equipment to build a mill with. Bill W. --- Don Schneider wrote: Bill, I think you are correct, haven't tried it yet but itis on my list of thingsto do. I do think it would have to be done in twopasses so the power fiberswould be centered/paralleled, ( is that the correctterm?), in the strip.You could do it in one pass and come out with theright dimensions but thepower fibers would not be parallel to the strip. I think the tips would fare just fine once they areunder both feed rollsbecause the power feed rolls force the strip downinto the form and holdsthem securely. However, if the pressure of the firstfeed roll caused thetip strip to raise up before getting to the blade...its all over,toothpicks. Don't know how it would work feeding tipsections butt first,I'm guessing tear- out. Harry, You and I talked about this a few months ago.Did you try it and ifso, how did it come out?Don----- Original Message -----From: "Bill Walters" Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:06 AMSubject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Don, sounds to me like you could do tapered stripswith a setup like this. If you do them slightly oversize, wouldn't take much to finish 'em off in a formon the bench. Thinking this would work for the buttsection but wondering how doing tips would fare. Bill Walters--- Don Schneider wrote: To All, Yes, you can do the job in one pass per side whenusing the starter form andit is a one person operation. The key to doing this is planing the thickness ofthe strips just slightlythicker than your target dimension of the roughedstrips before using thestarter form. Naturally the strips have to be split to reasonable width. Adjust the starter side depth so the enamel side of the strip is protrudingabove the form and the pith side is extending to but not beyond the slope ofthe groove. Don't worry about hogging out to much on one pass, the PP goesthrough bamboo like butter. The power feed rollerswill force the strip downinto the groove and hold the strip securely. Result- 60Ÿ angle on 1st pass.Feed the rest of the strips. Turn the form over to the 60Ÿ groove side and don't adjust anything. Feed atest strip. If the planed strip is to large, closeup the groove, DO NOTadjust the planer or you may plane your form. Whensatisfied, feed the restof the strips one at a time. Result- 60Ÿ roughbeveled strips. I don't have any pictures or drawings of theadjustable starter form butwill make some if you wish. Contact me off list. The cross section of theform looks just like the starter form in Wayne'sbook but it is adjustablewith push/pull bolts. Tip:If you have used a Power Planer before youunderstand the term "Nipping".This may occur for the first 4 or 5 inches of thestock when being feed intothe planer. Position your strips back from the feed end of the starter formaccordingly. Good Luck, Don __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Feb 6 15:53:22 2002 g16LrK819579 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:53:20 -0600 Subject: Re: guides - speakup quick ! Harry et al.,I use a 4 just above the stripper guide on size 5 or 6 lines. I usually don't go below 1/0 and I'll use a 5 on a 7 or 8 wgt. line rod. The smaller the guide the greater the friction for shooting line.Regards,Hank. from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 18:03:34 2002 g1703X825157 for ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:03:33 -0600 06 Feb 2002 16:03:32 PST Subject: Re: guides - speakup quick ! all, thastes bird to the worm has already got them.thanks youal'. timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from edriddle@mindspring.com Thu Feb 7 06:33:59 2002 g17CXw812839 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 06:33:58 -0600 helo=oemcomputer) id 16YnkS-00064l-00 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 07:33:56 -0500 Subject: test from ttalsma@macatawa.org Thu Feb 7 06:51:10 2002 g17CpA813310 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 06:51:10 -0600 id ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:44:10 -0500 id D56AM1JW; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:44:01 -0500 Subject: Re: test Pretty quiet, eh? Ed Riddle wrote: -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from dmanders@telusplanet.net Thu Feb 7 06:51:30 2002 Received: from g17CpT813358 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 06:51:29 hme0.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.01 201-253-122-122-101- 2002 05:51:23 -0700 Message-Id:X- Sender:dmanders/pop.telusplanet.net@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: Windows rodmakers@mail.wustL.edu From: Don & Sandy Andersen 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Guys, Does anyone know howI can clean the very fine files that I use for ferrule adjustments. The teethget very small pieces of NI-Si stuck in them. Have tried various kinds ofbrushes including plastic/stainless/brass. The files are about 150 teeth tothe inch and getting a brush between the teeth is tough. I've been cleaningeach tooth with a box cutter knife blade. It's tedious. Any ideas? thanx, Donffff,0000,0000http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html > from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.milThu Feb 7 07:08:42 2002 Received: from kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil g17D8aXD022692 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 X-Sender:wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu From: Mark Wendt wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN At 05:48 AM 2/7/2002 -0700, you wrote: Guys, Does anyone know how I can clean the veryfine files that I use for ferrule adjustments. The teeth get very smallpieces of NI-Si stuck in them. Have tried various kinds of brushes includingplastic/stainless/brass. The files are about 150 teeth to the inch andgetting a brush between the teeth is tough. I've been cleaning each toothwith a box cutter knife blade. It's tedious. Any ideas? thanx,Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html jbbamboo@hotmail.com Thu Feb 7 07:45:18 2002 Received: from Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:44:59 -0800 Received: from 24.247.66.141 bylw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 13:44:59 GMT 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID:X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 jbbamboo@hotmail.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN youth and ideals. So the monarch offered him freedom, as long as he accepted the monarch's proposition to have an answer by to his kingdom and began to poll everybody: the princess, answer. The price would be high; the witch was famous throughout the was hunchbacked and hideous, had only one tooth, smelled like sewage, the Round Table. Hence, their wedding was proclaimed, and life. truth and that neighboring monarch between relief courteous. The old everyone very experience, most beautiful asked what had to her when horrible, deformed beautiful maiden during the night? During the day, a the privacy of hideous witch, intimate moments? don't read it until herself. beautiful all the charge of her own things are going http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Chat with friends online, try MSNMessenger: ClickHere from tedknott@cogeco.ca Thu Feb 7 07:57:57 2002 g17Dvu815219 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:57:56 -0600 Subject: Re: Fine Files Bailley Wood, CSE ferrules, used to advertise a fine file card to go =with the files he sold. Bailley Wood, CSE ferrules, used to = fine file card to go with the files he sold. from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Thu Feb 7 09:30:45 2002 g17FUi819147 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:30:44 -0600 HAA11560; HAA12600; g17FUvS00606; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:31:03 -0800 "Coffey, Patrick W" Subject: RE: Winston flick no problem, I was just saying that to some people coming up with this mightbe a pain in the rear. I use to train apprentices at the violin shop that Iworked and I learned what I thought was a no brainer to some people isrocket science. It's one of those cases of try to remember what it's like tostand in their shoes. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Winston flick Patrick;I don't want to start, or continue a pissing contest either, but asking bit much. It's not high tech, doesn't require any tools other than apencil, a tape measure and some figuring. And I wasn't chastising you inparticular. I know the purpose of this list is to share information, butsometimes it seems that no one is thinking for himself anymore. Sorry ifyou took it personally.john "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: who said anything about anybody handing anything to anybody? You should read before you comment. Why don't you go to china and cut your own cane,whyrely on some one else to do it for you, Why don't you cast and form your own nickel silver tubing and wire, why rely on some one to hand it to you. Iassume that you made your own cold roll steel for your hand made planningforms and didn't let some steel dealer hand it to you and some one else make the forms for you and it goes without saying that you made your own flyline. Some of us don't have the expertise and facilities or materials tomake some of the things that we need, those of us who do make our ownandthose that don't buy them. This wasn't intended to start another pissingcontest it just seems this world has to many people who chastise others when they haven't walked in their shoes. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 5:18 PMCc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Winston flick Guys;So why does someone else have to hand it to you, figure your own out andmake it for yourself. I realize that this sounds like something thatTerry would say, but he happens to be right about a few things. I mean,jeez, you gotta be able to do some of the brain work for yourselves.john(flame away, asbestos britches in place) "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: It would be great to have that length chart he used to mark where to cut for node spacing. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: RE: Winston flick Tom Morgan told me this is standard practice. It removes the feathery edge of the splines. Make a few quads and you will be tempted to pull at these and mess everything up (You know how I know so I won't even say ask me!). Rolling them works better. Great video.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Winston flick In the Winston vidio I noticed the rodmaker rolling a number of loosesplines between the palms of his hands. What on earth is he doing? Itseems like he could seriously damage the sharp edges. Dennis Bertram from dnorl@qwest.net Thu Feb 7 10:08:13 2002 g17G8C821498 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:08:12 -0600 (63.228.45.160) Subject: Re: Fine Files Don,What you are telling me is that you are not wiping your file on your =shop apron (read that pants leg) after EACH cut. If you do not the next =cut will gall the material you are filing and the file will gum up. =Thats after EACH cut.Dave-----Original Message-----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Subject: Fine Files Guys, Does anyone know how I can clean the very fine files that I use for =ferrule adjustments.The teeth get very small pieces of NI-Si stuck in them. Have tried =various kinds of brushes including plastic/stainless/brass. The files =are about 150 teeth to the inch and getting a brush between the teeth is =tough. I've been cleaning each tooth with a box cutter knife blade. It's =tedious.Any ideas? thanx, Donhttp://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html Don,Whatyou are = that you are not wiping your file on your shop apron (read that pants = EACH cut. If you do not the next cut will gall the material you are = the file will gum up. Thats after EACH cut.Dave -----Original = FilesGuys,Does anyone know how Ican = very fine files that I use for ferrule adjustments.The teeth get = small pieces of NI-Si stuck in them. Have tried various kinds of = including plastic/stainless/brass. The files are about 150 teeth to = and getting a brush between the teeth is tough. I've been cleaning = from jerryy@webtv.net Thu Feb 7 10:40:03 2002 g17Ge2823468 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:40:02 -0600 by mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with 2113.public.lawson.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id IAA14753; ETAuAhUAg6wDEJ5PkQB7JU4QcK5bJcLBHCMCFQC3/Iq02NqoRTRiLcQBq63jhWPvyw== Subject: Re: Fine Files of Thu, 07 Feb 2002 05:48:25 -0700 I am reminded of the lessons from gunsmithing school many years ago.They taught us to never clean a file with a steel file card. If memoryserves me the 6/0 file is 175 tpi and the 8/0 file is 250 tpi. I usechalk to fill the teeth and clean the flle off after every stroke on myjeans. Only clean with a small brass brush. If you are loading theteeth then two things may be happening. Not keping the file clean orpressure on the file strokes is too aggresive, or both. Some peoplehave recommended using soap to fill the teeth but the only way to cleanthe file is a brass brush and water. Just find chalk much easier touse. Jerry Young from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Thu Feb 7 11:06:32 2002 g17H6V825079 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:06:31 -0600 Subject: Straightening a long section Organization: Wethersfield Public Schools I have an old rod 3pc 8.5' the mid and top need straightening.The tip is bowed in different directions. Like and "S".Is it better to work in sections or try to heat the whole thing?If I was to heat the whole thing in an oven what temperature should Iuse? Thanks, Pete from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Thu Feb 7 11:39:52 2002 g17Hdq828491 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:39:52 -0600 2002 12:39:51 -0500 g17HgnY28656 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:42:49 -0500 Subject: Emailing: Metro Detroit Home Shop Metalworking-resources Thought this link would appeal to any in southern Michigan/Northern =Ohio. We're part-time home shop metal workers! BrianYour files are attached and ready to send with this message. Thought this link would appeal to any = workers! BrianYour files are = to send with this message. name="mdmc-resources.url" filename="mdmc-resources.url" [InternetShortcut]URL=http://www.msen.com/~lemur/mdmc- resources.htmlModified=F02FEB0FFEAFC10188 from tgoodman@mail.as.miami.edu Thu Feb 7 12:17:54 2002 g17IHr807652 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:17:53 -0600 id ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:06:38 -0500 RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: What would you choose??? Sir Gawain this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Well, this is off-topic-unless you walked out of English lit an hour ago, asI did, where we were talking about this very same tale-but told a little bitdifferently by Chaucer. Nice coincidence; thanks, Jim. --Tom CleanCleanDocumentEmail MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle- rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso- style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para- margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow- orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} Well, this is off-topic-unless =youwalked out of English lit an hour ago, as I did, where we were talking =aboutthis very same tale-but told a little bit differently by Chaucer.=A0 Nice coincidence; thanks, =Jim.=A0 =A0=A0 -- Tom from horsesho@ptd.net Thu Feb 7 13:14:16 2002 g17JEF820756 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:14:15 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4184. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.677572 secs); 07 Feb 2002 19:14:15 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Straightening a long section Work in sections. It will straighten with little problem. If you heat the whole thing it will probably delaminate . Marty Peter Van Schaack wrote: I have an old rod 3pc 8.5' the mid and top need straightening.The tip is bowed in different directions. Like and "S".Is it better to work in sections or try to heat the whole thing?If I was to heat the whole thing in an oven what temperature should Iuse? Thanks, Pete from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Feb 7 14:51:19 2002 g17KpI813847 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:51:19 -0600 Subject: virus Hey I got a virus from someone and I don't know who but everyone shouldscan last week off the list.Sorry if I passed it on.Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ Hey I got a virus from JS.Exception.Exploit was the name of it and I picked it up in the last week offthe list. Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ from rextutor@yahoo.com Thu Feb 7 14:57:16 2002 g17KvF815497 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:57:15 -0600 07 Feb 2002 12:57:14 PST Subject: Re: Straightening a long section "'Rod Makers'" I find it easier and more accurate to heat from oneend at a specific spot then into the vice, working toend other end of the section. Heating at the next spotafter applying pressure is done. with S curves Iusually start in the midle of the S which has an upand down bend in the same spot. Sometimes this is allthat needs correcting. I have tried put them in the oven at 250 for 1-2minutes and tring to get all the kinks out at oncewithout much success. The thing cools before I canapply pressure to the net spot. Any hotter and thebamboo is not pliable. --- Peter Van Schaack wrote: I have an old rod 3pc 8.5' the mid and top needstraightening.The tip is bowed in different directions. Like and"S".Is it better to work in sections or try to heat thewhole thing?If I was to heat the whole thing in an oven whattemperature should Iuse? Thanks, Pete __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from swiftriverflyfishing@earthlink.net Thu Feb 7 17:48:53 2002 g17Nmq827843 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:48:52 -0600 id 16YyHZ-0007Dx-00; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 15:48:50 -0800 Subject: Re: Fine Files The method that I use for cleaning my files is to soap them up before handwith ivory soap and then after dressing the ferrules I clean them with warmwater and a stiff tooth brush. Rick T.---------- From: jerryy@webtv.net (Jerry Young) Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustL.eduSubject: Re: Fine FilesDate: Thu, Feb 7, 2002, 11:40 AM I am reminded of the lessons from gunsmithing school many years ago.They taught us to never clean a file with a steel file card. If memoryserves me the 6/0 file is 175 tpi and the 8/0 file is 250 tpi. I usechalk to fill the teeth and clean the flle off after every stroke on myjeans. Only clean with a small brass brush. If you are loading theteeth then two things may be happening. Not keping the file clean orpressure on the file strokes is too aggresive, or both. Some peoplehave recommended using soap to fill the teeth but the only way to cleanthe file is a brass brush and water. Just find chalk much easier touse. Jerry Young from idahorods@yahoo.com Thu Feb 7 19:08:35 2002 g1818Y815023 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:08:34 -0600 Thu, 07 Feb 2002 14:08:18 PST Subject: Unidentified Rod Checked several other sources, but have been unable to be able to help. It's a 7.5' 2/2 hex. The onlymarkings on the rod are in white ink reading along asingle flat away from the grip "Sportsman 255" Wrapsare black/yellow jasper, tipped yellow. Signaturewraps are black/yellow and yellow, a series of 5total. No indication that any decals have beenremoved. Ferrules are chrome plated, male is stepped.Would really appreciate any info you might have onthis one, specifically including how it casts ifanyone knows. Guides are too lousy to even put a lineon it and see. Thanks for any info. =====James Piotrowski __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu Feb 7 20:09:02 2002 g18291819082 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:09:01 -0600 Subject: Re: Fine Files The best way to clean the fine files for fitting ferrules, is to beadblast them with very fine glass beads. If you don't have a beadblasting cabinet, like I do, you may find that some of the machineshops in your area have one and will clean them for you. Possibly Dave LeClair check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Feb 7 22:54:49 2002 g184sn822959 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:54:49 -0600 07 Feb 2002 20:54:48 PST Subject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits --- Bill Walters wrote: Don, bet it would work for tapering of tips if youbuilt a shallow box that had the top routed out forthe form to fit in, with holes underneath and a portat the end to attach a shopvac to, thereby drawing avacuum on the form. Would just have to set it up sothe hose wouldn't be able to come in contact withtheknives and shut off the planner as soon at the backofthe form cleared the inside of the powerplanner,disconnect the shopvac, bring the jig back aroundthefront and start again. I've been wondering why someone doesn't come upwitha simple powered version of the adjustable planningform without using a whole lot of expensive or timeconsuming equipment to build a mill with. Bill W. --- Don Schneider wrote: Bill, I think you are correct, haven't tried it yet but it is on my list of thingsto do. I do think it would have to be done in twopasses so the power fiberswould be centered/paralleled, ( is that the correct term?), in the strip.You could do it in one pass and come out with theright dimensions but thepower fibers would not be parallel to the strip. I think the tips would fare just fine once they are under both feed rollsbecause the power feed rolls force the strip downinto the form and holdsthem securely. However, if the pressure of the first feed roll caused thetip strip to raise up before getting to the blade... its all over,toothpicks. Don't know how it would work feeding tip sections butt first,I'm guessing tear-out. Harry, You and I talked about this a few months ago. Did you try it and ifso, how did it come out?Don----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Walters" Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:06 AMSubject: Re: 60 and 45 Degree Router Bits Don, sounds to me like you could do tapered stripswith a setup like this. If you do them slightly over size, wouldn't take much to finish 'em off in a form on the bench. Thinking this would work for the butt section but wondering how doing tips would fare. Bill Walters--- Don Schneider wrote: To All, Yes, you can do the job in one pass per side when using the starter form andit is a one person operation. The key to doing this is planing the thickness of the strips just slightlythicker than your target dimension of the roughed strips before using thestarter form. Naturally the strips have to be split to reasonable width. Adjust the starter side depth so the enamel side of the strip is protrudingabove the form and the pith side is extending to but not beyond the slope ofthe groove. Don't worry about hogging out to much on one pass, the PP goesthrough bamboo like butter. The power feed rollers will force the strip downinto the groove and hold the strip securely. Result- 60Ÿ angle on 1st pass.Feed the rest of the strips. Turn the form over to the 60Ÿ groove side and don't adjust anything. Feed atest strip. If the planed strip is to large, close up the groove, DO NOTadjust the planer or you may plane your form. When satisfied, feed the restof the strips one at a time. Result- 60Ÿ roughbeveled strips. I don't have any pictures or drawings of theadjustable starter form butwill make some if you wish. Contact me off list. The cross section of theform looks just like the starter form in Wayne's book but it is adjustablewith push/pull bolts. Tip:If you have used a Power Planer before youunderstand the term "Nipping".This may occur for the first 4 or 5 inches of the stock when being feed intothe planer. Position your strips back from the feed end of the starter formaccordingly. Good Luck, Don __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Feb 8 04:23:35 2002 g18ANZ827425 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 04:23:35 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4184. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.740768 secs); 08 Feb 2002 10:23:34 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Unidentified Rod With white ink and chrome plated hardware my educated guess(90% certain) would be a Horrocks Ibbotson (HI) rod. The only makers I can think of right now that used white ink are HI and Edwards. Marty James Piotrowski wrote: Checked several other sources, but have been unable to be able to help. It's a 7.5' 2/2 hex. The onlymarkings on the rod are in white ink reading along asingle flat away from the grip "Sportsman 255" Wrapsare black/yellow jasper, tipped yellow. Signaturewraps are black/yellow and yellow, a series of 5total. No indication that any decals have beenremoved. Ferrules are chrome plated, male is stepped.Would really appreciate any info you might have onthis one, specifically including how it casts ifanyone knows. Guides are too lousy to even put a lineon it and see. Thanks for any info. =====James Piotrowski __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Feb 8 05:30:58 2002 g18BUw828101 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:30:58 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4184. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.821988 secs); 08 Feb 2002 11:30:57 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Unidentified Rod It is a HI rod. Found it in Sinclair's book. Sold for $10 in 1930. Not cheap! Marty Marty D. wrote: With white ink and chrome plated hardware my educated guess(90% certain) would be a Horrocks Ibbotson (HI) rod. The only makers I can think of right now that used white ink are HI and Edwards. Marty James Piotrowski wrote: Checked several other sources, but have been unable to be able to help. It's a 7.5' 2/2 hex. The onlymarkings on the rod are in white ink reading along asingle flat away from the grip "Sportsman 255" Wrapsare black/yellow jasper, tipped yellow. Signaturewraps are black/yellow and yellow, a series of 5total. No indication that any decals have beenremoved. Ferrules are chrome plated, male is stepped.Would really appreciate any info you might have onthis one, specifically including how it casts ifanyone knows. Guides are too lousy to even put a lineon it and see. Thanks for any info. =====James Piotrowski __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from jfreeman@cyberport.com Fri Feb 8 06:52:18 2002 g18CqH829056 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 06:52:17 -0600 Subject: Ferrule wraps Anybody got a better way to do ferrule wraps? I suppose there are three =ways - wrap 1/4" of cane and on up to the ferrule shoulder; wrap 1/4" up =the cane to the ferrule beginning and then make a separate wrap starting =there and going to the shoulder; and wrap 1/4" cane and up to shoulder =then back over first warp to starting point. I've tried the second and = Guys, Anybody got a better way to do ferrule= suppose there are three ways - wrap 1/4" of cane and on up to the = shoulder; wrap 1/4" up the cane to the ferrule beginning and then make a = separate wrap starting there and going to the shoulder; and wrap 1/4" = up to shoulder then back over first warp to starting point. I've tried = Jim from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Fri Feb 8 07:09:55 2002 g18D9s829424 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 07:09:54 -0600 Subject: RE: Straightening a long section Organization: Wethersfield Public Schools Thank you all for the advice, heated over a stove burner and about twohours later had it and casting. Thanks again, Pete -----Original Message----- Schaack Subject: Straightening a long section I have an old rod 3pc 8.5' the mid and top need straightening. The tipis bowed in different directions. Like and "S". Is it better to work insections or try to heat the whole thing? If I was to heat the wholething in an oven what temperature should I use? Thanks, Pete from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Feb 8 08:04:03 2002 g18E42801167 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:04:02 -0600 Subject: Ray Gould and family rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu My friends,I got an email from Ray yesterday about his granddaughter. As some of you know I had posted to the list that she has cancer and was undergoing treatment for it. Well, Ray informed me that she is not doing well and that she has only a short time to live. After I read his email last night I sat in my chair with tears in my eyes and a very heavy heart. Times like this are not easy on a family and as some of you know there have been a fewother people on the list who have experienced tragedy in their lives in the last few years as well.Ray's granddaughter's name is Kirsten, as some will remember, and I knowthat she means the world to him as he has told me in past emails between usabout her and her illness. I ask all who are on the list even if you may not be a Christian or of some other religious faith to please take the time to think about her and the family and in your own way to pray for them. I know Ray would appreciate hearing from you in regard to their tragedy just to let him know we all care. If anyone is interested I will get Kirsten's address and maybe we can all send her cards. I don't know what else to say in this matter except that Ray is in need of all of us right now to show him howmuch he is appreciated and cared for on this list, not only as our friend but as someone who has always been more than ready to share with us all.This is a good time for us all to help our friend who is hurting and needs us probably more right now than any of us have in a long time. Yay though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil for thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Please guys pray for the family and please let Ray know you are hurting along with the rest of the family.Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ My friends, of you know I had posted to the list that she has cancer and was undergoing like this are not easy on a family and as some of you know there have been afew other people on the list who have experienced tragedy in their lives in thelast few years as well.Ray's granddaughter's name is Kirsten, as some will remember, and I knowthat she means the world to him as he has told me in past emails between us not be a Christian or of some other religious faith to please take the time to know Ray would appreciate hearing from you in regard to their tragedy just to say in this matter except that Ray is in need of all of us right now to showhim how much he is appreciated and cared for on this list, not only as ourfriend but as someone who has always been more than ready to share withus all.This is a good time for us all to help our friend who is hurting and needs us Yay though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil Please guys pray for the family and please let Ray know you are hurting alongwith the rest of the family.Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ from kenealyj@gwi.net Fri Feb 8 08:25:55 2002 g18EPs801960 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:25:55 -0600 , Subject: Re: Ray Gould and family Bret, I only know Ray from the list, but this is deeply touching. My thoughts =and prayers are with Ray, his Grandaughter and his family. John Kenealy My friends,I got an email from Ray yesterday about his granddaughter. As some of =you know I had posted to the list that she has cancer and was undergoing =treatment for it. Well, Ray informed me that she is not doing well and =that she has only a short time to live. After I read his email last =night I sat in my chair with tears in my eyes and a very heavy heart. =Times like this are not easy on a family and as some of you know there =have been a few other people on the list who have experienced tragedy in =their lives in the last few years as well.Ray's granddaughter's name is Kirsten, as some will remember, and I =know that she means the world to him as he has told me in past emails =between us about her and her illness. I ask all who are on the list =even if you may not be a Christian or of some other religious faith to =please take the time to think about her and the family and in your own =way to pray for them. I know Ray would appreciate hearing from you in =regard to their tragedy just to let him know we all care. If anyone is =interested I will get Kirsten's address and maybe we can all send her =cards. I don't know what else to say in this matter except that Ray is =in need of all of us right now to show him how much he is appreciated =and cared for on this list, not only as our friend but as someone who =has always been more than ready to share with us all.This is a good time for us all to help our friend who is hurting and = Yay though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will =fear no evil for thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff they comfort =me. Please guys pray for the family and please let Ray know you are =hurting along with the rest of the family.Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ Bret, I only know Ray from the list, but this = his family. John Kenealy ----- Original Message ----- Grhghlndr@aol.com =; rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 = AMSubject: Ray Gould and family = My = = had posted to the list that she has cancer and was undergoing = not easy on a family and as some of you know there have been a few = people on the list who have experienced tragedy in their lives in the = remember, and I know that she means the world to him as he has told me = list even if you may not be a Christian or of some other religious = please take the time to think about her and the family and in your own = I will get Kirsten's address and maybe we can all send her = don't know what else to say in this matter except that Ray is in need = of us right now to show him how much he is appreciated and cared for = list, not only as our friend but as someone who has always been more = ready to share with us all.This is a good time for us all to help = friend who is hurting and needs us probably more right now than any of = you are hurting along with the rest of the family.Brethttp://bretsovens.bravepages.c=om/ from oossg@vbe.com Fri Feb 8 08:42:26 2002 g18EgP803030 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:42:25 -0600 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:42:08 -0500 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:42:19 -0500 Subject: 38 ACM Guide Spacing A few weeks ago someone posted the taper for a Leonard 38 ACM. Justfinished gluing up last night and I'm looking forward to finishing upthis weekend. Does someone have the guide spacing and anyrecommendation for grip and reel seat???Thank you,Scott from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Feb 8 08:47:33 2002 g18ElW803630 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:47:32 -0600 Subject: Ray's address rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Below is Ray's address and his granddaughters address as well. rsgould@cmc.net Kirsten Gould21704- N.E. 203rd STWoodinville, WA 98072 Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ Below is Ray's address and his granddaughters address as rsgould@cmc.net Kirsten Gould21704- N.E. 203rd STWoodinville, WA 98072 Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ from HARRISTRIBE@aol.com Fri Feb 8 10:51:35 2002 g18GpY809740 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:51:34 -0600 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:51:17 -0500 Subject: Joe Arguello' email address All,I'd like to get in touch with Joe Arguello off list. Anybody have his current email address handy?Thanks,Jim Harris All, current email address handy?Thanks,Jim Harris from mbiondo@wuacn.wustl.edu Fri Feb 8 11:15:58 2002 g18HFw811101 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:15:58 -0600 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:15:57 -0600 Organization: Washington University in St. Louis Subject: Leonard Rod Company Hello everyone... Below is a post that was rejected due to Mr. Simroe, not being a subscriber to list. I am taking the liberty of forwarding to the list as it offers some very interesting insights... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Subject: Leonard Rod Company The group's messages were recently forwarded to me, and I found them most interesting. There were some truths, some myths and some lies. Overall, I did enjoy them all! As far as the discussion of "fakes vs originals," I really doubt if one can tell what is original if the joints and hardware were made by the original maker. Most of the major makers, with the exception of Orvis, always refinished rods in the original colors, etc. At Leonard, we maintained all the threads for all the various makes, and copied the winds, etc. exactly. I know Payne did the same. Consequently, a Payne refinished by Leonard would be exactly the same, and absolutely indistinguishable from the original, especially after 10 or 20 years. And if the rod was again refinished later by Payne, no one would know that it was twice removed from being "original." If a joint needed to be replaced, then the replacement would be obvious because of the node arrangement or color. Ferrules were always duplicated where necessary. I have seen rods that only had original ferrules and hardware left. The butt was perhaps replaced by Payne, and later the mid by Thomas, and still later, the tips by Leonard. But this was the way fishermen and not collectors did things. They wanted to have a serviceable rod, and had the work done crime, but that is only because values change. Thanks for the opportunity to comment. T.W.S from caneman@clnk.com Fri Feb 8 12:49:22 2002 g18InL815247 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:49:21 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Company for some time... below is a snip from Ron Kusse's website. "In 1972 the H.L. Leonard Rod Company decided to expand. Ted Simroe andHapMills contacted Ron and offered him a Vice Presidency of the H.L. LeonardRod Company along with stock options. He happily accepted and his careerwith H.L. Leonard started. Shortly thereafter, H.L. Leonard was sold toUniversity Society and then sold again to Johnson Wax Company of Racine,Wisconsin. Ron remained on as both his friends Hap Mills and Ted Simroewere terminated. Another friend, Tom Maxwell, was hired and stayed aboutayear and was also terminated in early 1981. Ron decided that theH.L.Leonard Rod Company was headed in the wrong direction for him and quitthe company in March of 1981 again to make rods under his own name." later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Leonard Rod Company Hello everyone... Below is a post that was rejected due to Mr. Simroe, not being asubscriber to list. I am taking the liberty of forwarding to thelist as it offers some very interesting insights... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Subject: Leonard Rod Company From: "Theodore Simroe" The group's messages were recently forwarded to me, and I found themmost interesting. There were some truths, some myths and some lies.Overall, I did enjoy them all! As far as the discussion of "fakes vs originals," I really doubt ifone can tell what is original if the joints and hardware were made bythe original maker. Most of the major makers, with the exception ofOrvis, always refinished rods in the original colors, etc. AtLeonard, we maintained all the threads for all the various makes, andcopied the winds, etc. exactly. I know Payne did the same.Consequently, a Payne refinished by Leonard would be exactly thesame, and absolutely indistinguishable from the original, especiallyafter 10 or 20 years. And if the rod was again refinished later byPayne, no one would know that it was twice removed from being"original." If a joint needed to be replaced, then the replacement would beobvious because of the node arrangement or color. Ferrules werealways duplicated where necessary. I have seen rods that only hadoriginal ferrules and hardware left. The butt was perhaps replaced byPayne, and later the mid by Thomas, and still later, the tips byLeonard. But this was the way fishermen and not collectors didthings. They wanted to have a serviceable rod, and had the work done crime, but that is only because values change. Thanks for the opportunity to comment. T.W.S from GBuckley@aapg.org Fri Feb 8 13:02:55 2002 g18J2s815975 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:02:54 -0600 8 Feb 02 13:07:35 -0600 0600 8 Feb 02 13:06:32 -0600User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh- Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Bob - I just went and visited Ron's web site at http://www.ronkusse.com/ Verynice looking work. Question for you and the list... I've seen many of the makers sites withtight, crisp photos of their butt caps and reel locks and butt sections.Some of them have metal engravings (or even decals on the shaft of therod).Is that work done in their shop? Does a machinist do it for them? Is itpressed into the metal? What's the breadth of experience out there? I don't think I've ever seen this topic discussed on list (perhaps I've beenofflist at the times it was discussed). In which case please accept myapologies. Also, anyone have a good source for decals to lie under the rod finish? Mypenmanship is too inconsistent to produce a good looking product from onerod to another. But, if I could do it once and create a label of it... well,that's more doable in my case I think. As always, thanks in advance. Gerald from caneman@clnk.com Fri Feb 8 13:30:52 2002 g18JUp817397 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:30:51 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Gerald,There are many ways to do things like this. You can have your reel capsengraved by either a gun engraver, or a jeweler that does engraving. Youcan also have a die made to "stamp" your name or logo into a reel cap, butI'm finding that to be VERY expensive. Another alternative, on of your morehonored and experienced listmembers, Hal Bacon chemically etches his reelseats... they do look great. Maybe Hal would explain the process andmachines he uses for this.As for decals, you can have decals made, but in this day of very highquality printers, you can buy decal paper and print your own on that, thenapply it to the rod. I believe most of those doing decals print out on asheet, then coat with a couple of coats of their rod varnish, let it drythan apply it as a normal decal. Again, those that do their own decals mayexplain it better. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Bob - I just went and visited Ron's web site at http://www.ronkusse.com/ Verynice looking work. Question for you and the list... I've seen many of the makers sites withtight, crisp photos of their butt caps and reel locks and butt sections.Some of them have metal engravings (or even decals on the shaft of the rod). Is that work done in their shop? Does a machinist do it for them? Is itpressed into the metal? What's the breadth of experience out there? I don't think I've ever seen this topic discussed on list (perhaps I've been offlist at the times it was discussed). In which case please accept myapologies. Also, anyone have a good source for decals to lie under the rod finish? Mypenmanship is too inconsistent to produce a good looking product from onerod to another. But, if I could do it once and create a label of it... well, that's more doable in my case I think. As always, thanks in advance. Gerald from rodwrapp@swbell.net Fri Feb 8 14:03:00 2002 g18K30818996 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:03:00 -0600 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Re: Leonard Rod Company ,GBuckley@aapg.org You can use the same machine knifemakers uses to etch knife blades.. ThanksDave----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Gerald,There are many ways to do things like this. You can have your reel caps engraved by either a gun engraver, or a jeweler that does engraving. Youcan also have a die made to "stamp" your name or logo into a reel cap, butI'm finding that to be VERY expensive. Another alternative, on of your more honored and experienced listmembers, Hal Bacon chemically etches his reelseats... they do look great. Maybe Hal would explain the process andmachines he uses for this.As for decals, you can have decals made, but in this day of very highquality printers, you can buy decal paper and print your own on that, thenapply it to the rod. I believe most of those doing decals print out on asheet, then coat with a couple of coats of their rod varnish, let it drythan apply it as a normal decal. Again, those that do their own decals may explain it better. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message -----From: "Gerald Buckley" Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:02 PMSubject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Bob - I just went and visited Ron's web site at http://www.ronkusse.com/ Verynice looking work. Question for you and the list... I've seen many of the makers sites withtight, crisp photos of their butt caps and reel locks and butt sections.Some of them have metal engravings (or even decals on the shaft of the rod). Is that work done in their shop? Does a machinist do it for them? Is itpressed into the metal? What's the breadth of experience out there? I don't think I've ever seen this topic discussed on list (perhaps I've been offlist at the times it was discussed). In which case please accept myapologies. Also, anyone have a good source for decals to lie under the rod finish? My penmanship is too inconsistent to produce a good looking product from one rod to another. But, if I could do it once and create a label of it... well, that's more doable in my case I think. As always, thanks in advance. Gerald from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Fri Feb 8 14:23:16 2002 g18KNG819922 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:23:16 -0600 Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:23:28 -0500 Subject: RE: Decal paper site HI Gerald, Her is a site that has info on doing decals and products for sale, hope thishelps you, Tim.www.beldecal.com Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Bob - I just went and visited Ron's web site at http://www.ronkusse.com/ Verynice looking work. Question for you and the list... I've seen many of the makers sites withtight, crisp photos of their butt caps and reel locks and butt sections.Some of them have metal engravings (or even decals on the shaft of therod).Is that work done in their shop? Does a machinist do it for them? Is itpressed into the metal? What's the breadth of experience out there? I don't think I've ever seen this topic discussed on list (perhaps I've beenofflist at the times it was discussed). In which case please accept myapologies. Also, anyone have a good source for decals to lie under the rod finish? Mypenmanship is too inconsistent to produce a good looking product from onerod to another. But, if I could do it once and create a label of it... well,that's more doable in my case I think. As always, thanks in advance. Gerald from GBuckley@aapg.org Fri Feb 8 15:29:52 2002 g18LTq824337 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:29:52 -0600 8 Feb 02 15:34:32 -0600 0600 8 Feb 02 15:33:48 -0600User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh- Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Decal paper site You just gotta love the web... This place http://www.decalconnection.net/Rod%20Builders%20Page.htm claims to "love the rod builder" and will "drop whatever they're doing" tohelp one out. From: "Tim Doughty" Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:26:09 -0500 Cc: "Rodmakers Info" Subject: RE: Decal paper site HI Gerald, Her is a site that has info on doing decals and products for sale, hope thishelps you, Tim.www.beldecal.com Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 2:02 PM Subject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Bob - I just went and visited Ron's web site at http://www.ronkusse.com/ Verynice looking work. Question for you and the list... I've seen many of the makers sites withtight, crisp photos of their butt caps and reel locks and butt sections.Some of them have metal engravings (or even decals on the shaft of therod).Is that work done in their shop? Does a machinist do it for them? Is itpressed into the metal? What's the breadth of experience out there? I don't think I've ever seen this topic discussed on list (perhaps I've beenofflist at the times it was discussed). In which case please accept myapologies. Also, anyone have a good source for decals to lie under the rod finish? Mypenmanship is too inconsistent to produce a good looking product from onerod to another. But, if I could do it once and create a label of it... well,that's more doable in my case I think. As always, thanks in advance. Gerald from mtbrown@sprynet.com Fri Feb 8 17:46:38 2002 g18Nkc828736 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:46:38 -0600 helo=0019589634) id 16ZKiw-0000Nd-00; Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:46:34 -0500 Subject: decal paper I just finish using ink jet decal paper to sign my first rod. It gives =you the benefit of choosing the font and the color of ink. The results =were great. Got my supplies from Micro Mark (no vested int.) but =Beldecal's price was a few bucks less. Buy the sealer spray, it is not =an option if you don't want to see you're printing melt away. I want to thank everyone on the list for all the help in getting to this =point. The rod is a 7" 3/2 Driggs River Special and what a beauty. =Will be going to the white river in March to try it out. You guys are =the best.........Mike I just finish using ink= paper to sign my first rod. It gives you the benefit of choosing the = sealer spray, it is not an option if you don't want to see you're = away. I want to thank = best.........Mike from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Feb 8 19:04:53 2002 g1914q800351 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:04:52 -0600 g1914l830750 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:04:48 -0600 Subject: Can anyone help on rod info Got this on another list I am on. Can anyone helphim.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Subject:[VFB] Fly Rod QuestionDate:Fri, 08 Feb 2002 20:23:21 +0000From:jlcollins1@att.net I am looking for information about a bamboo flyrod. Pepper Rod Company, Roman NY3 piece markings PT1F Jim Collins from rodwrapp@swbell.net Fri Feb 8 20:23:49 2002 g192Nm801759 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:23:49 -0600 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Re: decal paper I can make your decals in metalic white any color you wan them.. I have waterslide and the sticky type.. Thanks Davesrods----- Original Message ---- - From: Mike and Melissa Brown February 08, 2002 5:43 PMSubject: decal paper I just finish using ink jet decal paper to sign my first rod. It gives you thebenefit of choosing the font and the color of ink. The results were great. Got my supplies from Micro Mark (no vested int.) but Beldecal's price was afew bucks less. Buy the sealer spray, it is not an option if you don't want tosee you're printing melt away. I want to thank everyone on the list for all the help in getting to this point. The rod is a 7" 3/2 Driggs River Special and what a beauty. Will be going tothe white river in March to try it out. You guys are the best.........Mike I can make your decals in metalic white anycolor Davesrods ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike and Melissa Brown Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 5:43 PMSubject: decal paper I just finish using ink jet decal paper to sign my first rod. It gives you the benefit of choosing the font and Buy the sealer spray, it is not an option if you don't want to see you're printing melt away. I want to thank everyone onthe river best.........Mike from Lazybee45@aol.com Fri Feb 8 21:14:09 2002 g193E8808533 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:14:09 -0600 Subject: Re: Ray Gould and family Bret:(and all of you!) Ray Gould was the guy who really gave me a start with this insanity. He sent me a book and some cane to start off with. Trusting me to pay him when I could for the book, and asking nothing in return for the cane. a seriously nice man! One of the reasons that I hang about with all of you!We too have had out brush with dreaded disease lately. My son-in-law's (The world's nicest guy!) father, who is a pretty darn nice guy himself, came down with stomach cancer last year and has had an uphill and down hill battle with it ever since. The end is in sight for him as well. Not as tragic as Kristin, but not good either!Second, 4 weeks ago to the day (saturday) my daughter's best friend Michelle was suddenly and tragicly taken from us by a staph infection. On Friday she was well enough, but had been feeling bad for a few days. Friday night she was ill, and her parents found her the following morning. She was 25!Yes, I know the difficulties! My prayers are with Ray and his family! Trials are God's way of showing how much he trusts us. But sometimes Iwish he didn't trust us quite so much! mark visit Marks Magic Workshop http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html from blitzenrods@yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 21:21:24 2002 g193LO809030 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:21:24 -0600 Fri, 08 Feb 2002 19:21:23 PST Subject: Chemical etching on knives GBuckley@aapg.org I have a custom knife that was made for me, and themaker has his name chemically etched on the blade. Ihad understood that there is a wax like product thatcan be spread on the blade, then you sign your namewith a needle point tool of some sort, then a chemicalproduct is applied to the area. The wax likesubstance prevents contamination outside of where theinscription was made. I could be wrong on this, a lotof it was speculation on my part. Anyone know if thisis approximately true? Chris. --- Davesrods wrote: You can use the same machine knifemakers uses toetch knife blades.. ThanksDave----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" ; Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:29 PMSubject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Gerald,There are many ways to do things like this. You can have your reelcaps engraved by either a gun engraver, or a jeweler that does engraving. You can also have a die made to "stamp" your name or logo into a reel cap, but I'm finding that to be VERY expensive. Another alternative, on of yourmore honored and experienced listmembers, Hal Bacon chemically etches his reel seats... they do look great. Maybe Hal would explain the process and machines he uses for this.As for decals, you can have decals made, but in this day of very high quality printers, you can buy decal paper and print your own on that, then apply it to the rod. I believe most of those doing decals print out on a sheet, then coat with a couple of coats of their rod varnish, let it dry than apply it as a normal decal. Again, those that do their own decalsmay explain it better. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message -----From: "Gerald Buckley" Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:02 PMSubject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Bob - I just went and visited Ron's web site at http://www.ronkusse.com/ Very nice looking work. Question for you and the list... I've seen many of the makers sites with tight, crisp photos of their butt caps and reel locks and butt sections. Some of them have metal engravings (or even decals on the shaft of the rod). Is that work done in their shop? Does a machinist do it for them? Is it pressed into the metal? What's the breadth of experience out there? I don't think I've ever seen this topic discussed on list (perhaps I've been offlist at the times it was discussed). In which case please accept my apologies. Also, anyone have a good source for decals to lie under the rod finish?My penmanship is too inconsistent to produce a good looking product fromone rod to another. But, if I could do it once and create a label of it... well, that's more doable in my case I think. As always, thanks in advance. Gerald __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from cathcreek@hotmail.com Fri Feb 8 23:50:20 2002 g195oJ813271 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 23:50:19 -0600 Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:50:06 -0800 Sat, 09 Feb 2002 05:50:06 GMT GBuckley@aapg.orgSubject: Re: Chemical etching on knives FILETIME=[A07680D0:01C1B12D] Chris, sounds feasable. That is how we used to etch glass in Art class when I was a bit younger. Anyone have experience with this stuff and where to get it? Would be kind of fun to experiment. Rob From: Chris McDowell GBuckley@aapg.orgSubject: Chemical etching on knives I have a custom knife that was made for me, and themaker has his name chemically etched on the blade. Ihad understood that there is a wax like product thatcan be spread on the blade, then you sign your namewith a needle point tool of some sort, then a chemicalproduct is applied to the area. The wax likesubstance prevents contamination outside of where theinscription was made. I could be wrong on this, a lotof it was speculation on my part. Anyone know if thisis approximately true? Chris. --- Davesrods wrote: You can use the same machine knifemakers uses toetch knife blades.. ThanksDave----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" ; Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:29 PMSubject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Gerald,There are many ways to do things like this. You can have your reelcaps engraved by either a gun engraver, or a jeweler that does engraving. You can also have a die made to "stamp" your name or logo into a reel cap, but I'm finding that to be VERY expensive. Another alternative, on of yourmore honored and experienced listmembers, Hal Bacon chemically etches his reel seats... they do look great. Maybe Hal would explain the process and machines he uses for this.As for decals, you can have decals made, but in this day of very high quality printers, you can buy decal paper and print your own on that, then apply it to the rod. I believe most of those doing decals print out on a sheet, then coat with a couple of coats of their rod varnish, let it dry than apply it as a normal decal. Again, those that do their own decalsmay explain it better. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message -----From: "Gerald Buckley" Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:02 PMSubject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Bob - I just went and visited Ron's web site at http://www.ronkusse.com/ Very nice looking work. Question for you and the list... I've seen many of the makers sites with tight, crisp photos of their butt caps and reel locks and butt sections. Some of them have metal engravings (or even decals on the shaft of the rod). Is that work done in their shop? Does a machinist do it for them? Is it pressed into the metal? What's the breadth of experience out there? I don't think I've ever seen this topic discussed on list (perhaps I've been offlist at the times it was discussed). In which case please accept my apologies. Also, anyone have a good source for decals to lie under the rod finish?My penmanship is too inconsistent to produce a good looking product fromone rod to another. But, if I could do it once and create a label of it... well, that's more doable in my case I think. As always, thanks in advance. Gerald __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx from rodwrapp@swbell.net Sat Feb 9 01:15:37 2002 g197Fa814579 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 01:15:36 -0600 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Re: Chemical etching on knives rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,GBuckley@aapg.org About 2 months ago Hal said he got his etching device from this sight...http://www.micromark.com/----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Chemical etching on knives Chris, sounds feasable. That is how we used to etch glass in Art class when I was a bit younger. Anyone have experience with this stuff and where toget it? Would be kind of fun to experiment. Rob From: Chris McDowell GBuckley@aapg.orgSubject: Chemical etching on knives I have a custom knife that was made for me, and themaker has his name chemically etched on the blade. Ihad understood that there is a wax like product thatcan be spread on the blade, then you sign your namewith a needle point tool of some sort, then a chemicalproduct is applied to the area. The wax likesubstance prevents contamination outside of where theinscription was made. I could be wrong on this, a lotof it was speculation on my part. Anyone know if thisis approximately true? Chris. --- Davesrods wrote: You can use the same machine knifemakers uses toetch knife blades.. ThanksDave----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" ; Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:29 PMSubject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Gerald,There are many ways to do things like this. You can have your reelcaps engraved by either a gun engraver, or a jeweler that does engraving. You can also have a die made to "stamp" your name or logo into a reel cap, but I'm finding that to be VERY expensive. Another alternative, on of yourmore honored and experienced listmembers, Hal Bacon chemically etches his reel seats... they do look great. Maybe Hal would explain the process and machines he uses for this.As for decals, you can have decals made, but in this day of very high quality printers, you can buy decal paper and print your own on that, then apply it to the rod. I believe most of those doing decals print out on a sheet, then coat with a couple of coats of their rod varnish, let it dry than apply it as a normal decal. Again, those that do their own decalsmay explain it better. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message -----From: "Gerald Buckley" Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:02 PMSubject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Bob - I just went and visited Ron's web site at http://www.ronkusse.com/ Very nice looking work. Question for you and the list... I've seen many of the makers sites with tight, crisp photos of their butt caps and reel locks and butt sections. Some of them have metal engravings (or even decals on the shaft of the rod). Is that work done in their shop? Does a machinist do it for them? Is it pressed into the metal? What's the breadth of experience out there? I don't think I've ever seen this topic discussed on list (perhaps I've been offlist at the times it was discussed). In which case please accept my apologies. Also, anyone have a good source for decals to lie under the rod finish?My penmanship is too inconsistent to produce a good looking product fromone rod to another. But, if I could do it once and create a label of it... well, that's more doable in my case I think. As always, thanks in advance. Gerald __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Sat Feb 9 05:57:20 2002 g19BvJ816967 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 05:57:19 -0600 ;Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:57:12 +0000 "Rodmakers discussion group" Subject: Re: Ferrule wraps I am trying a new process. The last three rods (which does not give =enough time for conclusive results) I have wrapped from the ferrule =shoulder to the end of the ferrule and a couple of turns further. I then =finish these wraps with three coats of varnish, sanding between coats to =get a smooth surface. When this surface is prepped I wrap from below the =the ferrule entirely over the first wrap. I redid my Driggs River =Special with this technique. While I haven't done a lot of fishing with =it since, it is my yard casting rod and after SRG 2001 I spent a lot of =time practicing. So far no cracks. Regards, Steve Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 7:54 AMSubject: Ferrule wraps Anybody got a better way to do ferrule wraps? I suppose there are =three ways - wrap 1/4" of cane and on up to the ferrule shoulder; wrap =1/4" up the cane to the ferrule beginning and then make a separate wrap =starting there and going to the shoulder; and wrap 1/4" cane and up to =shoulder then back over first warp to starting point. I've tried the = I am trying a new process. The last = (which does not give enough time for conclusive results) I have wrapped = ferrule shoulder to the end of the ferrule and a couple of turns = finish these wraps with three coats of varnish, sanding between coats to = smooth surface. When this surface is prepped I wrap from below the the = yard casting rod and after SRG 2001 I spent a lot of time practicing. So = cracks. Regards, Steve ----- Original Message ----- Sally Freeman group Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 = AMSubject: Ferrule wraps Guys, Anybody got a better way to do = suppose there are three ways - wrap 1/4" of cane and on up to the = shoulder; wrap 1/4" up the cane to the ferrule beginning and then make = separate wrap starting there and going to the shoulder; and wrap 1/4" = up to shoulder then back over first warp to starting point. I've tried = Jim = from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Sat Feb 9 07:01:08 2002 g19D18817578 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:01:08 -0600 Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:01:06 +0000 Subject: Re: Ferrule wraps Steve,I have been double wrapping my ferules for some years now and it's abig improvement over a single wrap......however thay will eventuallyexhibit the dreaded varnish cracking !.......Paul from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Sat Feb 9 07:14:13 2002 g19DEC817906 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:14:12 -0600 Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:12:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Chemical etching on knives Koval Knives sells etching machines and materials. You can find them athttp://www.kovalknives.com/home.htm Tim----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Chemical etching on knives Chris, sounds feasable. That is how we used to etch glass in Art class when I was a bit younger. Anyone have experience with this stuff and where toget it? Would be kind of fun to experiment. Rob From: Chris McDowell GBuckley@aapg.orgSubject: Chemical etching on knives I have a custom knife that was made for me, and themaker has his name chemically etched on the blade. Ihad understood that there is a wax like product thatcan be spread on the blade, then you sign your namewith a needle point tool of some sort, then a chemicalproduct is applied to the area. The wax likesubstance prevents contamination outside of where theinscription was made. I could be wrong on this, a lotof it was speculation on my part. Anyone know if thisis approximately true? Chris. --- Davesrods wrote: You can use the same machine knifemakers uses toetch knife blades.. ThanksDave----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" ; Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:29 PMSubject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Gerald,There are many ways to do things like this. You can have your reelcaps engraved by either a gun engraver, or a jeweler that does engraving. You can also have a die made to "stamp" your name or logo into a reel cap, but I'm finding that to be VERY expensive. Another alternative, on of yourmore honored and experienced listmembers, Hal Bacon chemically etches his reel seats... they do look great. Maybe Hal would explain the process and machines he uses for this.As for decals, you can have decals made, but in this day of very high quality printers, you can buy decal paper and print your own on that, then apply it to the rod. I believe most of those doing decals print out on a sheet, then coat with a couple of coats of their rod varnish, let it dry than apply it as a normal decal. Again, those that do their own decalsmay explain it better. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message -----From: "Gerald Buckley" Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:02 PMSubject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Bob - I just went and visited Ron's web site at http://www.ronkusse.com/ Very nice looking work. Question for you and the list... I've seen many of the makers sites with tight, crisp photos of their butt caps and reel locks and butt sections. Some of them have metal engravings (or even decals on the shaft of the rod). Is that work done in their shop? Does a machinist do it for them? Is it pressed into the metal? What's the breadth of experience out there? I don't think I've ever seen this topic discussed on list (perhaps I've been offlist at the times it was discussed). In which case please accept my apologies. Also, anyone have a good source for decals to lie under the rod finish?My penmanship is too inconsistent to produce a good looking product fromone rod to another. But, if I could do it once and create a label of it... well, that's more doable in my case I think. As always, thanks in advance. Gerald __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Sat Feb 9 07:56:08 2002 g19Du7818470 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:56:08 -0600 Subject: Farlows 'Lee Wulff Midge' All, I have at long long last managed to get my hands on ( i.e I have onloan) an original Midge .............I will post the taper, ring sizes , number off,handle size etc etc laterthis week.....bet ya can't wait ?.........Paul from cw@vanion.com Sat Feb 9 09:18:13 2002 g19FIC820765 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:18:12 -0600 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:23:02 -0700 Subject: cleaning fine cut files Was playing with the idea of cleaning fine files, posted earlier, and =thought that the power fiber side of bamboo would make a great "file =card". Used leftover cut-off of blanks, or a piece 1/8" wide, use =squared edge and run parallel to file cut and dig out particales. Works =great and fast. Was playing with the idea of = files, posted earlier, and thought that the power fiber side of bamboo = make a great "file card". Used leftover cut-off of blanks, or = 1/8" wide, use squared edge and run parallel to file cut and dig = particales. Works great and fast. from Jkvseafood@aol.com Sat Feb 9 10:38:28 2002 g19GcR821774 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:38:27 -0600 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:38:16 -0500 MAILINID410-0209113816; Sat, 09 Feb 2002 11:38:16 -0500 Subject: snake guides i have a question for the group. some one gave me 2 orvis battenkill rods 8ft 3 psc. 2 tips each.one has all matching #'s 5278 i think. this rod was refinished with chromesnake guides and epoxy, what a mess. the strippers, ferrules, cork and realseats areoriginal on both. i'm looking for the original guides (snake). if anyone canhelp please let me know. i need enough you one mid section and one tipsection. also two tip eyes. i'm new to restoring and don't know any sourses john from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Feb 9 10:41:11 2002 g19GfA822001 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:41:11 -0600 Subject: Re: Chemical etching on knives GBuckley@aapg.org I have used this process before on guns that I have built and when I get time I will post to the list the exact process and how to do it.Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ I have used this processbefore on guns that I have built and when I get time I will post to the list theexact process and how to do it.Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ from joseus@cybertech.com.ar Sat Feb 9 12:34:08 2002 g19IY6824059 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:34:06 -0600 g19Hm7J20156; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:48:08 -0300 "Rod Makers List Serve" , Subject: RE: Chemical etching on knives Hola Chris. Lo que usted pregunta, me parece a mi que es como losartesanosgraban en los metales. Se puede grabar en Nikel Silver, cobre y otrosmetales. Yo no se si este metodo sirve para el aluminio. A este metodo se lollama el bao de acido. Usted debe comprar una pintura asfaltica, y deberecubrir todo el reel seat. con una aguja u otro elemento cortante debeescribir su nombre o el logo que usted prefiera. Luego debe sumergir lapieza, en una solucion de Acido Nitrico Fumante al 30% en agua, El acidotrabaja en la parte que no esta protegida con la pintura. El tiempo lo debecontrolar usted. debe tener cuidado, usar guantes de latex. Le deseo exito.Mi hija realiza este metodo para hacer para ella y vender a sus amigas ,brazaletes y pulseras de Nikel Silver. Hasta pronto. Si usted tiene algunaotra duda, pregunte. Alberto.Hello Chris. What you ask, finds me to my that is as the artisans theyrecord in the metals. You can record in Nikel Silver, copper and othermetals. Me not you if this method is good for the aluminum. To this methodhe/she calls it to him the acid bathroom. You should buy an asphalticpainting, and it should recover the whole reel seat. with a needle oranother element sharp debit side to write their name or the logo that youprefer. Then debit side to submerge the piece, in a solution of Fumingnitric acid to 30% in water, The acid works in the part that not thisprotected one with the painting. The time you should control it. he/sheshould be careful, to use latex gloves. I wish him success. My daughtercarries out this method to make for her and to sell to her friends,bracelets and bracelets of Nikel Silver. Until soon. If you have some otherdoubt, ask. Alberto.www.geocities.com/albertoyjoseusman----- Original Message ----- Subject: Chemical etching on knives I have a custom knife that was made for me, and themaker has his name chemically etched on the blade. Ihad understood that there is a wax like product thatcan be spread on the blade, then you sign your namewith a needle point tool of some sort, then a chemicalproduct is applied to the area. The wax likesubstance prevents contamination outside of where theinscription was made. I could be wrong on this, a lotof it was speculation on my part. Anyone know if thisis approximately true? Chris. --- Davesrods wrote: You can use the same machine knifemakers uses toetch knife blades.. ThanksDave----- Original Message -----From: "Bob Nunley" ; Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:29 PMSubject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Gerald,There are many ways to do things like this. You can have your reelcaps engraved by either a gun engraver, or a jeweler that does engraving. You can also have a die made to "stamp" your name or logo into a reel cap, but I'm finding that to be VERY expensive. Another alternative, on of yourmore honored and experienced listmembers, Hal Bacon chemically etches his reel seats... they do look great. Maybe Hal would explain the process and machines he uses for this.As for decals, you can have decals made, but in this day of very high quality printers, you can buy decal paper and print your own on that, then apply it to the rod. I believe most of those doing decals print out on a sheet, then coat with a couple of coats of their rod varnish, let it dry than apply it as a normal decal. Again, those that do their own decalsmay explain it better. Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message -----From: "Gerald Buckley" Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:02 PMSubject: Re: Leonard Rod Company Bob - I just went and visited Ron's web site at http://www.ronkusse.com/ Very nice looking work. Question for you and the list... I've seen many of the makers sites with tight, crisp photos of their butt caps and reel locks and butt sections. Some of them have metal engravings (or even decals on the shaft of the rod). Is that work done in their shop? Does a machinist do it for them? Is it pressed into the metal? What's the breadth of experience out there? I don't think I've ever seen this topic discussed on list (perhaps I've been offlist at the times it was discussed). In which case please accept my apologies. Also, anyone have a good source for decals to lie under the rod finish?My penmanship is too inconsistent to produce a good looking product fromone rod to another. But, if I could do it once and create a label of it... well, that's more doable in my case I think. As always, thanks in advance. Gerald __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sat Feb 9 13:12:52 2002 g19JCp824916 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:12:51 -0600 Subject: Re: Farlows 'Lee Wulff Midge' Yeah, Paul, you're right-I can't wait,Regards,Hank. from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Feb 9 19:32:17 2002 g1A1WG800164 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 19:32:16 -0600 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Todd's chatroom Hi,anyone going in to the Chat room tonight??? I'll go hang out forawhile if anyone wants to join me,Shawn from pohl@earthlink.net Sat Feb 9 21:23:29 2002 g1A3NS801718 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:23:28 -0600 helo=kathypohl) id 16ZkaN-0004H9-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 09 Feb 2002 19:23:28 -0800 Subject: lathe reccomendations What's the best deal on a good lathe for all my rodbuilding needs? Is theresuch a thing as under $200 that will last? -Mark from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sat Feb 9 21:50:34 2002 g1A3oX802294 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:50:33 -0600 ([209.179.146.237] helo=computer) id 16Zl0X-0004Ky-00 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Sat, 09 Feb 2002 19:50:29 -0800 Subject: todds chat I sitting here all alone. Anyone want to shoot the breeze? Adam I sitting here all alone. Anyone want = breeze? Adam from rkrees@mcn.net Sat Feb 9 23:20:47 2002 g1A5Kk803493 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:20:47 -0600 helo=rkrees.mcn.net) id 16ZmPt-0006gL-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 09 Feb 2002 21:20:45 -0800 Subject: Slow ?SlowDave Cottingin has anyone run into this guys work ? Who is he is he in thelist ? from tapanisalmi@hotmail.com Sun Feb 10 00:56:14 2002 g1A6uD808360 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:56:13 - Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:56:08 -0800 Sun, 10 Feb 2002 06:56:07 GMT Subject: New geometry of hex rod - results from experiment FILETIME=[041C4430:01C1B200] Dear Listians,last week I sent following message to the list: "After glueing of tip sections of the last rod (my rod number 13!) I found to have turned one of the strips 60 degrees and noticed to have the power fibres inside the rod.When bending the blank I did found an asymmetry but to my surprise theturned strip was not the weakest side. Thereafter when bending some planed strips I could naturally find that there are significant differences in strength in different axis. Has anybody ever built a rod with all the six surfaces with power fibres inside the rod (as a star-like geometry)? Should it be weaker or stronger than usual? Can somebody give a theoretical or practical answer or should I try to build a star-like rod?" I got some answers with the same idea I also had: the power fibres in the outer surface give more power than near the midline of the rod. I was thinking however, that the bending of the rod causes a change in the cross- section of the hex shape and therefore the power fibres could lose some of their "theoretical" power because of bending to the "weaker" direction because of flattening / widening of the cross section compared to the fibres fixed inside the rod. To my first eperiment I made two short 40 cm hex "rods" (tapering from 4to 3 mm) - one with traditional and one with star-like building.Again to my surprise the both short pieces of "rods" were of same strength, I can not claim that the star-like was stronger but surely it was not weaker. Because theses sticks are however far from real rods, I made a star-like construction (inside out)of T Smithwick 5'6" #5 taper which I just had as a blank and had my planing-form adjusted for.Now I have compared the blanks and again: there are no difference in power of those two constructions, between the traditional and star-like inside-out rods. If they are of same strength, why should somebody repeat my experiment?The star-like construction has some a funny property: you can change the taper AFTER glueing the blank simply by sanding, scraping or planing the rod thinner! When you take material off from the star-like rod the power fibres are inside and in safe and the resulted rod is really "re-tapered". I can not imagine an easier way to make experiments by modifying the taper! Actually you could have only some few raw-tapers of different lentgh (in store) and then plane the blank to the wanted dimensions afterwards to have different rods! This could result in technique with un-adjusted planing forms and mass-production of strips -perhaps I should patent the method instead of writing here [;-)] ! There are some other differencies: the nodes in star-like rod are almost invisible. The rod is, perhaps, more ugly with fibre-stripes on the surface. The scraping of the enamel has to be done with care to result in thin glue lines. The flaming of the surface may be impossible? I am not actually suggesting that the 100+ years tradition of the hex-rod building has to be changed because of this experiment [:-)] , but I really would like to suggest that some open-minded (more or less) professional builder repeats this construction using other taper,glue etc and gives his judgement on the real value of the star-like construction.RegardsTapani Salmihome: www.peukalo.pp.fi _________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com from rvenneri@ulster.net Sun Feb 10 05:41:37 2002 g1ABfa810746 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 05:41:36 - Organization: Venneri's Custom Components Subject: looking for a taper List is slow so I was wondering if any one has a good 6 foot- 2 or 3wt-2 pc taper they would like to share. Please if possible don,t justsend the taper tell a little about the rod it self. Thanks in advance. http://www.ulster.net/~rvenneri/index.html Best RegardsBob VVenneri's21 Chuck Hill RdSaugerties NY 12477845 246 5882 from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Sun Feb 10 11:48:01 2002 g1AHm0813832 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:48:01 - Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:47:55 -0800 Subject: Re: lathe reccomendations FILETIME=[11E54250:01C1B25B] What's the best deal on a good lathe for all my rodbuilding needs? Is there such a thing as under $200 that will last? -Mark You might consider a Taig Lathe. They are available through J.C. Boegeman inthe planing form, and also on the web- do a search on "Nick Carter's TaigLathe" pages. This lathe is one of the least expensive one on the market,but it is very high quality. It is also small and easy to use. Theaccessories are inexpensive. The taig is not without limitations. It is small, so cork handles are turnedon a mandrel rather than on the rod. The hole through the headstock issmall, so you might be limited when turning ferrules on large diameter rods(you can bore out the hole a bit). The major downfall of the Taig is threadcutting and knurling. It does not cut threads, so any thread cutting wouldhave to be done using a tap and die set. Also, Taig recommends that you notuse knurling tools- too much pressure. I have seen scissors-type knurlingtools on the web designed for the taig, but have no experience with thissetup. Also, the minimum speed on the taig seems faster than what istypically used in knurling operations. You CAN make simple sliding band reel seats with the basic Taig lathe. Youneed to take your time when cutting nickel-silver bar stock and hardreel- seat fillers, but they come out just fine. I picked up my Taig because my home-made turning setup was dying, and I didnot have enough money for a Sherline. However, I really like it. It makesbeautiful reel seats, and I imagine that ferrules would be possible. SomedayI will have a sherline, but for now the Taig is meeting my needs, and itturned out to be a great tool for learning the basics of machining. Notethat some machinists actually prefer the Taig, and Nick Carters web pagehasa link to a "Sherline vs. Taig" page that lists advantages and disadvantagesof each brand. If anyone on the list is doing knurling and threaded reel seats using aTaig, I would like to hear about how you do it. Jeff Schaeffer from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Sun Feb 10 12:10:05 2002 g1AIA4814322 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:10:04 - Subject: Re: lathe reccomendations You may want to consider looking for an older lathe. Call used equipmentdealers. I found an Atlas for about $500, 12" swing, auto thread selector,it came with 4 jaw and 3 jaw chuck, tooling, and a bunch of other stuff. Itneeded about $100 and a couple hours of my time but now I have a fullservice lathe. Now I can make ferrules, reel seats, rod tubes...Small bench lathes can be difficult to come by, but keep trying. I got mine from a dealer in Buffalo, he didn't have any small ones but he knew someonelooking to upgrade, it worked out great for all involved. Plus its reallycool to tour some of these warehouses. good lucktom----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: lathe reccomendations What's the best deal on a good lathe for all my rodbuilding needs? Is there such a thing as under $200 that will last? -Mark You might consider a Taig Lathe. They are available through J.C. Boegeman in the planing form, and also on the web- do a search on "Nick Carter's TaigLathe" pages. This lathe is one of the least expensive one on the market,but it is very high quality. It is also small and easy to use. Theaccessories are inexpensive. The taig is not without limitations. It is small, so cork handles are turned on a mandrel rather than on the rod. The hole through the headstock issmall, so you might be limited when turning ferrules on large diameter rods (you can bore out the hole a bit). The major downfall of the Taig is thread cutting and knurling. It does not cut threads, so any thread cutting wouldhave to be done using a tap and die set. Also, Taig recommends that you not use knurling tools- too much pressure. I have seen scissors-type knurlingtools on the web designed for the taig, but have no experience with thissetup. Also, the minimum speed on the taig seems faster than what istypically used in knurling operations. You CAN make simple sliding band reel seats with the basic Taig lathe. Youneed to take your time when cutting nickel-silver bar stock and hardreel- seat fillers, but they come out just fine. I picked up my Taig because my home-made turning setup was dying, and I did not have enough money for a Sherline. However, I really like it. It makesbeautiful reel seats, and I imagine that ferrules would be possible. Someday I will have a sherline, but for now the Taig is meeting my needs, and itturned out to be a great tool for learning the basics of machining. Notethat some machinists actually prefer the Taig, and Nick Carters web page has a link to a "Sherline vs. Taig" page that lists advantages and disadvantages of each brand. If anyone on the list is doing knurling and threaded reel seats using aTaig, I would like to hear about how you do it. Jeff Schaeffer from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Sun Feb 10 12:19:57 2002 g1AIJu814701 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:19:56 - g1AIMtX19070 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:22:55 - Subject: 60 degree cutters Does anyone have experience taking the collet off of a router and =installing paired cutter or other tooling? My little Al Medved style =router roughing beveler would be much more efficient if it cut triangles =in a single pass, and I've already dedicated the router to it. Brian Does anyone have experience taking the= Medved style router roughing beveler would be much more efficient if it = it. Brian from EM11EM22@aol.com Sun Feb 10 13:51:14 2002 g1AJpE816461 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:51:14 - for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:51:06 - Subject: Re: lathe reccomendations In a message dated 2/10/02 9:48:50 AM, jsschaeffer@hotmail.com writes: I've had a Taig for a number of years and always want to cut threads. Just recently, I found this item for thread cutting. (Haven't bought it yet............. but it's on my list!) http://www.emachineshop.com/frog/index.htm Regards,Edward Miller(on the west coast) from DCURTIS@satx.rr.com Sun Feb 10 16:55:46 2002 g1AMtj819873 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:55:45 -0600 forged)) g1AMuHhw023950 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:56:20 -0600 Subject: Binder/Oven Well I've completed my heat gun oven and I'm about to finish my binder (allthis weekend!!). I've been tied up trying to make those metal forms thatare a pain in the _____. I had put off making anything else thinking theymight be as much trouble as the forms. Well I'll tell you the oven andbinder were no problem at all. I spent a full weekend and about $100 oneverything including a $20 barbecue thermometer. My binder was madeafterthe Bellinger's design (no knot). I would like to thank the list for allyour help/support. I've included below some of the material and how I wentabout making them for any of you out there that have been putting this off. Darrin CurtisSan Antonio Heat Gun Oven Double wall duct pipe one at 5 inches x 60 inches and one at 3 inches x 6inchesOne 5 inch to 6 inch reducer (for the bottom) make it more stable standingupOne thermometer (two would be better)one 3 inch 90 degree turn (vents off the heat away from heat gun)Aluminum tape and Aluminum foilSheet metal screwsInsulation (I used pipe insulation comes in small role)3 inch aluminum pipe for dryers (used to connect to heat gun)1 heat gun (variable temp) I first connected the reducer to the 5 inch duct with sheet metal screws(bottom). I then put the 3 inch duct inside the 5 inch duct and left about5 inches sticking out the top and screwed the 3 inch pipe to the inside ofthe 5 inch duct. I drilled a hole for the thermometer screwed it in place.I took the 3 inch aluminum pipe and scrunched (probably a better word outthere) down between the 3 inch and 5 inch pipes. I then scrunched thealuminum pipe around the nozzle of my heat gun. I stuffed aluminum foil andinsulation around the pipes to prevent leaking. I then used aluminum tapeto dress it up some (I'm sure that the sticky side of the tape will burnoff, but it made it look better). I took the remainder of the insulationand covered it will aluminum foil and stuck it up inside the reducer toclose off the bottom of the oven. I stood the oven up beside my latter andrested my heat gun on the latter while connecting it to the top of my ovenvia the scrunched up 3 inch aluminum pipe. It seems to work great. Binder (I need to finish it first, will describe later if anyone isinterested. from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Feb 10 18:08:31 2002 g1B08V821462 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:08:31 -0600 (InterMail vM.5.01.04.01 201-253-122-122-101-20011014) with Subject: Cleaning Fine Files Guys/Gals, To all those that came up with suggestions, my thanx. As I've got all the rodsplanned for the next short while ferruled, your suggestions will have to wait.Will be trying them. Again my thanx, Don ffff,0000,0000http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from marbert@twave.net Sun Feb 10 20:29:54 2002 g1B2Tr824258 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:29:53 - Subject: Glue/Binder/Binding Cord My name is Bob Marbert. I have been making rods for about six years, =and so far, I've produced about thirty-five. I'm not in the business of =selling rods.......my only purpose(s) are to thoroughly entertain myself =and ensure my two sons are equipped in the manner to which they are =accustomed. When I started, there was no one in my area to ask, so I struggled. =Thank goodness for the Garrison book. It provided the concept and =basics......... from there, I improvised. One of my first improvisations =was in the area of adhesives. After evaluating the standards, I decided =that I didn't want to mix anything harder than alka-seltzer and water. =I settled on Gorilla Glue. In the fall '98 edition of Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine, my comments on it's =applicability were published in Tips and Techniques under the title ="King Kong Adhesives". As I read the Tips glue section, I see that some =of you have tried the monkey glue, and still have questions concerning = Well, I can't say how much longer it will last, but I can say that right =now it's six years and counting. I have experienced no problems, no =failures. As for workability, I add water. Preliminary heat treating =drives moisture out of the cane, and the glue needs moisture to do =whatever it is that it does. After I cut the masking tape and lay my =strips out, I take a wet sponge or moisened brush and reintroduce =moisture before I brush on the glue. Yes, the moisture causes the glue =to foam more, but it also extends the time you have to play with your =section before you hang it up to dry. On my splices (my first two rods =had nodes, the rest have been nodeless), I apply Gorilla Glue to one =side of the splice, I lick the other side. As for binders, I built a Garrison binder to specs, ran a couple of =dowells through for testing, took the binder apart, and put the parts in =a drawer. I'm a confirmed hand-binder. I like to feel the line tension =in my fingers, and I really did not want another piece of equipment =sitting around that could only be used for one thing (it's kinda' like a =cotton picker that's used two to three weeks a year, and sits idle the =rest of the year). My solution.......a fly reel. I had an old fly reel =that had been around the house for thirty years. It doesn't even have a =name on it, but it does have an excellent drag. It's mounted on a piece =of 5/8 " doweling (slide bands are brass pipe fittings) which I drop =into one of the dog/stop holes on my work bench. I load it up with =string, tweak the drag, and bind. Yes, my wrists do tire at times, but = time to recover between rods. My binding cord.......#10 crocheting thread. It's stong enough, =relatively inexpensive, available at the local craft store, and works =equally well for glueing and heat treating. To all who have contributed to the tips section, thanks. I wish I had =known about it six years ago. I could have saved a great deal of wear =and tear between my ears had I known about this site. Oh.....one last thing. Varnish. I didn't see any mention of my brand in =the tips, so I'll just mention it myself. I use Behlens Masters Water =White (WW) Restoration Varnish. It's a flexible, waterproof spar = business of selling rods.......my only purpose(s) are to thoroughly = myself and ensure my two sons are equipped in the manner to which they = accustomed. When I started, there was no one in my area to ask, so I = In the fall '98 edition of Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine, my comments on = applicability were published in Tips and Techniques under the title = Well, I can't say how much longer it will last, but I can say that = drives moisture out of the cane, and the glue needs moisture to do = take a wet sponge or moisened brush and reintroduce moisture before I = extends the time you have to play with your section before you hang it = nodeless), I apply Gorilla Glue to one side of the splice, I lick the = side. As for binders, I built a Garrison binder to specs, ran a couple of = through for testing, took the binder apart, and put the parts in a = fingers, and I really did not want another piece of equipment sitting = that could only be used for one thing (it's kinda' like a cotton picker = used two to three weeks a year, and sits idle the rest of the = bands are brass pipe fittings) which I drop into one of the dog/stop = my wrists do tire at times, but for one that only produces five or six = year, I have plenty of time to recover between rods. relatively inexpensive, available at the local craft store, and works = well for glueing and heat treating. tear between my ears had I known about this site. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Feb 10 20:38:25 2002 g1B2cO824744 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:38:24 - (authenticated) Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:39:54 -0800 Subject: Re: Glue/Binder/Binding Cord Hi Bob, Welcome aboard, and thanks for the greatinformation. We look forward to hearing lots ofgood stuff from you in the days to come. You'llfind this bunch to be a little like a family. Welove each other, and will defend each other almostto the point of fisticuffs, even if we dosometimes argue and whine. Let us know how we can help you... Harry Boyd Bob Marbert wrote: My name is Bob Marbert. I have been making rods -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from mrmac@tcimet.net Sun Feb 10 21:44:14 2002 g1B3iD826229 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:44:13 - Subject: Re: Glue/Binder/Binding Cord Yah, it's great to have another member, and different approaches arewhat it's all about, but now besides bamboo slivers and cuts infingers, we gotta worry about them in our tongue, too? awwwwwwww,man......... welcome to the litht, Bob. ;-)} mac from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Feb 10 23:50:13 2002 g1B5oC828603 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:50:12 - ([209.179.149.124] helo=computer) id 16a9Ls-000138-00; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:50:08 -0800 Subject: Re: Glue/Binder/Binding Cord Bob, I remember your gorilla glue suggestion in the "Mag". To bad the =magazine ended the way it did. Glad to have you on board. Most of us are =good natured and we tolerate and mostly ignore our "onery" brethren and =sisters. But we have a national treasure in this list and it is a lot =of fun. Adam Vigil Subject: Glue/Binder/Binding Cord My name is Bob Marbert. I have been making rods for about six years, =and so far, I've produced about thirty-five. I'm not in the business of =selling rods.......my only purpose(s) are to thoroughly entertain myself =and ensure my two sons are equipped in the manner to which they are =accustomed. When I started, there was no one in my area to ask, so I struggled. =Thank goodness for the Garrison book. It provided the concept and =basics......... from there, I improvised. One of my first improvisations =was in the area of adhesives. After evaluating the standards, I decided =that I didn't want to mix anything harder than alka-seltzer and water. =I settled on Gorilla Glue. In the fall '98 edition of Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine, my comments on =it's applicability were published in Tips and Techniques under the title ="King Kong Adhesives". As I read the Tips glue section, I see that some =of you have tried the monkey glue, and still have questions concerning = Well, I can't say how much longer it will last, but I can say that =right now it's six years and counting. I have experienced no problems, =no failures. As for workability, I add water. Preliminary heat =treating drives moisture out of the cane, and the glue needs moisture to =do whatever it is that it does. After I cut the masking tape and lay my =strips out, I take a wet sponge or moisened brush and reintroduce =moisture before I brush on the glue. Yes, the moisture causes the glue =to foam more, but it also extends the time you have to play with your =section before you hang it up to dry. On my splices (my first two rods =had nodes, the rest have been nodeless), I apply Gorilla Glue to one =side of the splice, I lick the other side. As for binders, I built a Garrison binder to specs, ran a couple of =dowells through for testing, took the binder apart, and put the parts in =a drawer. I'm a confirmed hand-binder. I like to feel the line tension =in my fingers, and I really did not want another piece of equipment =sitting around that could only be used for one thing (it's kinda' like a =cotton picker that's used two to three weeks a year, and sits idle the =rest of the year). My solution.......a fly reel. I had an old fly reel =that had been around the house for thirty years. It doesn't even have a =name on it, but it does have an excellent drag. It's mounted on a piece =of 5/8 " doweling (slide bands are brass pipe fittings) which I drop =into one of the dog/stop holes on my work bench. I load it up with =string, tweak the drag, and bind. Yes, my wrists do tire at times, but = time to recover between rods. My binding cord.......#10 crocheting thread. It's stong enough, =relatively inexpensive, available at the local craft store, and works =equally well for glueing and heat treating. To all who have contributed to the tips section, thanks. I wish I had =known about it six years ago. I could have saved a great deal of wear =and tear between my ears had I known about this site. Oh.....one last thing. Varnish. I didn't see any mention of my brand =in the tips, so I'll just mention it myself. I use Behlens Masters =Water White (WW) Restoration Varnish. It's a flexible, waterproof spar = Bob, I remember your gorilla glue suggestion= "Mag". To bad the magazine ended the way it did. Glad to have you on = of us are good natured and we tolerate and mostly ignore our "onery" = of fun. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Bob = Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002= PMSubject: Glue/Binder/Binding =Cord business of selling rods.......my only purpose(s) are to thoroughly = myself and ensure my two sons are equipped in the manner to which they = accustomed. When I started, there was no one in my area to ask, so I = In the fall '98 edition of Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine, my comments = applicability were published in Tips and Techniques under the title = Well, I can't say how much longer it will last, but I can say = treating drives moisture out of the cane, and the glue needs moisture = strips out, I take a wet sponge or moisened brush and reintroduce = more, but it also extends the time you have to play with your section = rest have been nodeless), I apply Gorilla Glue to one side of the = lick the other side. As for binders, I built a Garrison binder to specs, ran a couple = dowells through for testing, took the binder apart, and put the parts = tension in my fingers, and I really did not want another piece of = sitting around that could only be used for one thing (it's kinda' like = cotton picker that's used two to three weeks a year, and sits idle the = of 5/8 " doweling (slide bands are brass pipe fittings) which I drop = only produces five or six rods a year, I have plenty of time to = between rods. relatively inexpensive, available at the local craft store, and works = well for glueing and heat treating. wear and tear between my ears had I known about this site. = from homes-sold@attbi.com Mon Feb 11 00:23:52 2002 g1B6Np829466 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:23:51 - ;Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:23:45 +0000 , Subject: Re: Glue/Binder/Binding Cord Bob, Welcome aboard. You sound as insane as the rest of us on this list and =should fit right in. I have this mental image though of licking a piece =of bamboo just as my wife walks into my shop, the conversation should go =something like this: "I knew you were over the edge and now you just =proved it, kissing that damn bamboo. I'm having you committed." I hope =you all will come visit. Don Subject: Re: Glue/Binder/Binding Cord Bob, I remember your gorilla glue suggestion in the "Mag". To bad the =magazine ended the way it did. Glad to have you on board. Most of us are =good natured and we tolerate and mostly ignore our "onery" brethren and =sisters. But we have a national treasure in this list and it is a lot =of fun. Adam Vigil Subject: Glue/Binder/Binding Cord My name is Bob Marbert. I have been making rods for about six years, =and so far, I've produced about thirty-five. I'm not in the business of =selling rods.......my only purpose(s) are to thoroughly entertain myself =and ensure my two sons are equipped in the manner to which they are =accustomed. When I started, there was no one in my area to ask, so I struggled. =Thank goodness for the Garrison book. It provided the concept and =basics......... from there, I improvised. One of my first improvisations =was in the area of adhesives. After evaluating the standards, I decided =that I didn't want to mix anything harder than alka-seltzer and water. =I settled on Gorilla Glue. In the fall '98 edition of Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine, my comments on =it's applicability were published in Tips and Techniques under the title ="King Kong Adhesives". As I read the Tips glue section, I see that some =of you have tried the monkey glue, and still have questions concerning = Well, I can't say how much longer it will last, but I can say that =right now it's six years and counting. I have experienced no problems, =no failures. As for workability, I add water. Preliminary heat =treating drives moisture out of the cane, and the glue needs moisture to =do whatever it is that it does. After I cut the masking tape and lay my =strips out, I take a wet sponge or moisened brush and reintroduce =moisture before I brush on the glue. Yes, the moisture causes the glue =to foam more, but it also extends the time you have to play with your =section before you hang it up to dry. On my splices (my first two rods =had nodes, the rest have been nodeless), I apply Gorilla Glue to one =side of the splice, I lick the other side. As for binders, I built a Garrison binder to specs, ran a couple of =dowells through for testing, took the binder apart, and put the parts in =a drawer. I'm a confirmed hand-binder. I like to feel the line tension =in my fingers, and I really did not want another piece of equipment =sitting around that could only be used for one thing (it's kinda' like a =cotton picker that's used two to three weeks a year, and sits idle the =rest of the year). My solution.......a fly reel. I had an old fly reel =that had been around the house for thirty years. It doesn't even have a =name on it, but it does have an excellent drag. It's mounted on a piece =of 5/8 " doweling (slide bands are brass pipe fittings) which I drop =into one of the dog/stop holes on my work bench. I load it up with =string, tweak the drag, and bind. Yes, my wrists do tire at times, but = time to recover between rods. My binding cord.......#10 crocheting thread. It's stong enough, =relatively inexpensive, available at the local craft store, and works =equally well for glueing and heat treating. To all who have contributed to the tips section, thanks. I wish I had =known about it six years ago. I could have saved a great deal of wear =and tear between my ears had I known about this site. Oh.....one last thing. Varnish. I didn't see any mention of my brand =in the tips, so I'll just mention it myself. I use Behlens Masters =Water White (WW) Restoration Varnish. It's a flexible, waterproof spar = Bob,Welcome aboard. You sound as insane as the rest of us on this list = fit right in. I have this mental image though of licking a piece of = as my wife walks into my shop, the conversation should go something like = "I knew you were over the edge and now you just proved it, kissing that = bamboo. I’m having you committed." I hope you all will come =visit.Don From:Adam= Marbert ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 9:50 PMSubject: Re: Glue/Binder/Binding Cord Bob, I remember your gorilla glue suggestion= "Mag". To bad the magazine ended the way it did. Glad to have you on = of us are good natured and we tolerate and mostly ignore our "onery" = of fun. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Bob = Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002= PMSubject: Glue/Binder/Binding =Cord business of selling rods.......my only purpose(s) are to thoroughly = myself and ensure my two sons are equipped in the manner to which they = accustomed. When I started, there was no one in my area to ask, so I = In the fall '98 edition of Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine, my comments = applicability were published in Tips and Techniques under the title = Well, I can't say how much longer it will last, but I can say = treating drives moisture out of the cane, and the glue needs moisture = strips out, I take a wet sponge or moisened brush and reintroduce = more, but it also extends the time you have to play with your section = rest have been nodeless), I apply Gorilla Glue to one side of the = lick the other side. As for binders, I built a Garrison binder to specs, ran a couple = dowells through for testing, took the binder apart, and put the parts = tension in my fingers, and I really did not want another piece of = sitting around that could only be used for one thing (it's kinda' like = cotton picker that's used two to three weeks a year, and sits idle the = of 5/8 " doweling (slide bands are brass pipe fittings) which I drop = only produces five or six rods a year, I have plenty of time to = between rods. relatively inexpensive, available at the local craft store, and works = well for glueing and heat treating. wear and tear between my ears had I known about this site. = from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Feb 11 05:09:34 2002 g1BB9W803041 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:09:33 - g1BB94v56620; Subject: Re: lathe reccomendations Jeff I just love that comment "....I imagine that ferrules would be possible". If ever I read any one thing that encapsulates and typifies the wholespirit of rodmaking, that is it! Where would we all be had we not at some stage had the corollary thoughtthat bamboo rods "might be possible"? Peter from dmanders@telusplanet.net Mon Feb 11 06:53:55 2002 g1BCrs804164 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:53:54 -0600 (InterMail vM.5.01.04.01 201-253-122-122-101-20011014) with Subject: Rod Weights Guys/Gals, Some time ago there was a discussion of when rods should be weighed. Just finished up my rendition of the tapers drawings that Vince Marinaroincluded in the "Ring of the Rise". He says that the rod should weight under 4ozs. In my case, the raw cane without gluing or other finishing items cameabout at 3.3 ozs. Based on the fact that says that he builds all his rods for a 5 weight line itwould seem that the rod I've made that casts a 5 weight cannot have anymore cane removed anywhere and still cast a 5 wt. So did you think that he might have weighed it without fittings? Is this typicalof rodmakers or lawyers or only in combination? catch ya' Don ffff,0000,0000http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from Mark.Babiy@stel.tdsb.on.ca Mon Feb 11 08:48:03 2002 g1BElw806893 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:48:02 - Subject: Re: lathe reccomendations I have a Taig lathe and I agree it is very versatile. I will try toexplain the benefits and drawbacks to the lathe as far as I have seen. The lathe is great for cork, ferrule stations. Generally, I have beenable to do rods under 7.5" and 4 wts directly in the lathe. Rods overthat 5/6 wts have had the cork turned on a mandrel. The lathe has one major benefit/drawback to the Sherline. The lathe usesa rack and pinion movement rather than a leadsrew advance for the crossslide. If you need to move the cross slide quickly, this is a greatfeature, ie., wood spacers for reel seats, the cross slide can movequickly to hog off large amounts quickly.The drawback to the Sherline isthat you have a screw feed and this makes it difficult to move the crossslide quickly. However, the benefit to the screw feed is that the toolbit moves slowly, more accurately and provides a great finish, especiallyon metals. As far as I can see, doing something like ferrules would be extremelydifficult on the Taig without the screw feed mechanism. The "frog" attachment looks great, however at $200.00 US (about a trillion Canadiandollars at todays exchange rate) you get close to the price the Sherline. There are other options that are available, but the efforts to add thisscrew feed feature may out weigh the benefits. There are some cheaper alternatives to a screw feed. I have used a blockbolted to the base with a treaded rod through it to advance the crossslide to finish some metals. The results are satisfactory, not great. The plans for this are on Nick Carters Taig page.http://www.cartertools.com (This site is indispensible) Taig does not advise anybody to knurl using their lathe as it exerts toomuch pressure on the head stock. The solution is to use a scissors typeof knurling tool that Sherline has, or too build one ala Nick Cartersexample on this web page. Also , the Taig lacks alot of the tooling that the Sherline has available.Sherline's line of accessories is astounding. The Taig forces one to tryto adapt tooling to fit. the lathe was designed to do certain things butnot all. To turn wood, you will have to get the spur drive from Lee Valley or makeyour own. I have made reel seat inserts using the lathe and am happy. The rack and pinion system excels as I can really make inserts quickly andcan hog off large amounts of material. The drawback to the rack andpinion is that it is difficult to keep clean of wood chips and I havealready replaced the rack and pinion once. I had a chipped tooth on therack. (cheap to reapir), The tail stock drilling feature works well, but only gives you a smallamount of depth. I am presently trying to develop a method that willallow me to drill an entire insert without having to move the tailstockforward. I have had my Taig for about 4 years. Generally, I have been very happywith it. I got is used and have installed a variable speed treadmillmotor on it. This gives me a great variety of speeds. These speeds areincredible and give you an opportunity to get a great finish on yourmaterials. The tail stock drilling feature works well, but only gives you a smallamount of depth. I am presently trying to develop a method that willallow me to drill an entire insert without having to move the tailstockforward. from Mark.Babiy@stel.tdsb.on.ca Mon Feb 11 08:59:49 2002 g1BExm807623 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:59:49 - Subject: Re: lathe reccomendations part 2 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I am sorry, I hit the send button in error. If you read the first half, I have outlined my experiences with the Taiglathe. I like the lathe as a general purpose small lathe. If I decide to makeferrules or reel seats themselves, I would break down and buy the Sherlineor a larger used lathe. The costs to upgrade the Taig to make it more like a Sherline, force meto look at buying a Sherline. I like the Sherline especially as to thelarge amounts of tooling that is available for it. Also the Sherlinescrew feed make it more suited to metal working and the fine finish we areafter in reel seats. The Taig works great, but as I get more and more intorod building I am spending more time looking at other things that I can doand I just can't do it all with the Taig. I would check around with your school district to see what tooling theyare getting rid of. I have seen metal lathes with tooling sometimes go toscrap dealers for peanuts. Mark from jojo@ipa.net Mon Feb 11 09:10:08 2002 g1BFA3808316 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:10:03 -0600 helo=default) id 16aI5e-0001qj-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:09:58 -0500 Subject: Re: lathe reccomendations part 2 Also, as was noted previously, the spindle through-hole is on the smallside. This can be opened up to 25/64". I drilled it undersized, then reamedit for a better finish. M-D I am sorry, I hit the send button in error. If you read the first half, I have outlined my experiences with the Taiglathe. I like the lathe as a general purpose small lathe. If I decide to makeferrules or reel seats themselves, I would break down and buy the Sherlineor a larger used lathe. The costs to upgrade the Taig to make it more like a Sherline, force meto look at buying a Sherline. I like the Sherline especially as to thelarge amounts of tooling that is available for it. Also the Sherlinescrew feed make it more suited to metal working and the fine finish we areafter in reel seats. The Taig works great, but as I get more and more intorod building I am spending more time looking at other things that I can doand I just can't do it all with the Taig. I would check around with your school district to see what tooling theyare getting rid of. I have seen metal lathes with tooling sometimes go toscrap dealers for peanuts. Mark from rmoon@ida.net Mon Feb 11 09:45:02 2002 g1BFj1810199 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:45:01 -0600 Subject: Re: Rod Weights Don It was my understanding that the rod weight was figured before thefittings. I always thought that was a stupid idea, because how could anybodyever check it out without tearing the rod to pieces.Ralph Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys/Gals, Some time ago there was a discussion of when rods should be weighed.Just finished up my rendition of the tapers drawings that Vince Marinaroincluded in the "Ring of the Rise". He says that the rod should weight under 4ozs. In my case, the raw cane without gluing or other finishing items cameabout at 3.3 ozs.Based on the fact that says that he builds all his rods for a 5 weight line itwould seem that the rod I've made that casts a 5 weight cannot have anymore cane removed anywhere and still cast a 5 wt.So did you think that he might have weighed it without fittings? Is thistypical of rodmakers or lawyers or only in combination? catch ya' Donhttp://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from Grayson.Davis@valpo.edu Mon Feb 11 10:01:00 2002 g1BG0x811195 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:00:59 - g1BG0tn04168 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:00:55 - M2002021110005417622 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:00:54 - Subject: # of guides on a spey? and recovery At a fishing show last month, I saw a 15' T&T plastic spey rod. It featured a fignting butt, about 18" of cork grip, 11 snakes and two stripper guides. That's fewer than a guide per foot, even if you deduct the grip! Do the fellows who build speys routinely use fewer guides? I had an interesting experience last week that made me think about guide placement more seriously. I made a 7' semi-parabolic #4. It flexed very nicely before the guides went on. Then, after all the guides except for the last two on the tip were wrapped on, I jointed it up and flexed it again. This was something I had never thought to try before. The rod now had the worst recovery I have ever experienced. I thought the tip would never stop bobbing up and down. It was bobbing within 10" of the tip top; nothing visible further down. When the tip's bottom two guides went back on, the rod returned to excellent recovery. - Grayson-----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Feb 11 10:01:07 2002 g1BG15811215 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:01:05 -0600 Subject: WARNING. NON RODMAKING Non rodmaking but possibly of interest. There *may* be a show on the TV just now called The Ice Dream obviously relating to the Winter Olympics compared by Roy & HG who are Australia comedian commentators.These guys get film clips of the different things going on etc then comment on them in a way you may never have seen.It's all live and un scripted and very funny.Worth a look if you can see it. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html First snow, then silence.This thousand dollar screen diesSo beautifully. Unknown /*************************************************************************/ from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Mon Feb 11 10:26:22 2002 g1BGQL813397 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:26:21 - Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:26:17 -0600content-class: urn:content- classes:messageSubject: RE: # of guides on a spey? and recovery Thread-Topic: # of guides on a spey? and recoveryThread-Index: AcGzFjMAHl3BaB8FEda4IgBglOouXwAANmTA FILETIME=[D4F7EF50:01C1B318] g1BGQM813400 I had a comparable awakening about guide placement - and the fact that thetaper of the rod can influence optimal placement, so it isn't just a matter ofsome formula applicable to all rods. I've been working on a 7' 3-piece taperthat retains as much as possible some of the characteristics I like in my 8.5'3-piece 5-wt Phillipson Power Pakt. That means some sections of the rodwith little or no increase in diameter for several inches, which of coursetends to concentrate stress. This seems to be most critical in the bottomthird of the tip, and I've found that placement of a guide in just the rightplace a few inches above the tip ferrule helps reinforce it without killing theaction. Putting it in the wrong place can reduce the effect I want. Changedmy whole outlook on this. I think I'm also learning that a taper of this sort in a short light rod pushesthe bamboo very near to it's limit in stress tolerance - something not verywell predicted by hexrod as far as I can see. Not that it doesn't showincreased stress in critical areas, just that it doesn't help me figure out howmuch is too much in real-world use. Anyway I'm learning a lot and doing it myfavorite way - by experiencing it myself. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: # of guides on a spey? and recovery At a fishing show last month, I saw a 15' T&T plastic spey rod. It featured a fignting butt, about 18" of cork grip, 11 snakes and two stripper guides. That's fewer than a guide per foot, even if you deduct the grip! Do the fellows who build speys routinely use fewer guides? I had an interesting experience last week that made me think about guide placement more seriously. I made a 7' semi-parabolic #4. It flexed very nicely before the guides went on. Then, after all the guides except for the last two on the tip were wrapped on, I jointed it up and flexed it again. This was something I had never thought to try before. The rod now had the worst recovery I have ever experienced. I thought the tip would never stop bobbing up and down. It was bobbing within 10" of the tip top; nothing visible further down. When the tip's bottom two guides went back on, the rod returned to excellent recovery. - Grayson-----------------------------------------Grayson DavisEmail: Grayson.Davis@valpo.eduValparaiso University from harms1@pa.net Mon Feb 11 10:32:43 2002 g1BGWg814029 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:32:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Rod Weights Ralph, Rods that were weighed before the fittings were mounted were not meant tosatisfy our legalistic propensities toward "truth-in-advertizing." Instead,they were weighed at that point in their construction as evidence of a rod'sability to handle a fly line of a certain weight (back in the days when therelationship between silk line, rod length and rod weight was a relevant,determining indicator). The weight of the cane, alone (relative to a rod's length), told a customerwhat to expect of that rod's action. Vince, did not like that system either, but it was because he believed sofervently that hardware itself was bound to alter a rod's action. So hebuilt his lightest rods with small grips, cork reel seats (or balsa),mounted with light aluminum rings, and only a couple coats of very thinvarnish. Then he would weigh. Vince spent many, many years of trial-and-error before he was able toobtainthe the "magic" combination of strength and minimum weight in the cane.Everything depends upon how the shape (trajectory) of the convex tapersaremanaged within each of the rod's sections. One does not simply look at hisdrawings in "The Ring of The Rise" and then go build the rod. You can builda good, fishable rod, no doubt, but you probably will not have built thevery lightest rod that COULD be built. That was what Vince spent yearssearching out. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Rod Weights Don It was my understanding that the rod weight was figured before the fittings. I always thought that was a stupid idea, because how couldanybody ever check it out without tearing the rod to pieces. Ralph Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys/Gals, Some time ago there was a discussion of when rods should be weighed.Just finished up my rendition of the tapers drawings that Vince Marinaro included in the "Ring of the Rise". He says that the rod should weight under4 ozs. In my case, the raw cane without gluing or other finishing items cameabout at 3.3 ozs. Based on the fact that says that he builds all his rods for a 5 weight line it would seem that the rod I've made that casts a 5 weight cannot haveany more cane removed anywhere and still cast a 5 wt. So did you think that he might have weighed it without fittings? Is this typical of rodmakers or lawyers or only in combination? catch ya' Donhttp://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from Jkvseafood@aol.com Mon Feb 11 11:00:58 2002 g1BH0v815776 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:00:57 - 0211120042; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:00:42 -0500 Subject: heavy use rod?????????? i could really use the groups help. i'm making a 815 dickerson taper rod tofish for snook, redfish and bonefish in so florida. i'm worried that this rodmay may not hold up to the pressure. i will be catching 7-20 lb fish on aregular basis. i could, if i chose to, catch from 10 to 20, 20 - 50 lb. tarpon ina single day. i will be using a 6- 12 lb tippet. i've been told that if i make aheavier rod say a 9 ft 10 wt that the rod would be very heavy and notenjoyable to use. i'm worried about sets and the like using the 7 wt this way.please HHEELLPP!!!!!!!!! what do you guys think. i'm lucky to have the greatfishing down here, if you guys are coming this way ask and i'll direct you tothe hot spots. i've built graphite for 25 years and am just startting to makebamboo. i was a commercial fisherman for 10 years ( hook and line) andreally know the area. thanks for your help, johnhenry mitchell rod man.not in book. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Feb 11 11:39:17 2002 g1BHdG818834 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:39:16 - (authenticated) Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:40:43 -0800 Subject: Re: heavy use rod?????????? John, I guess we're supposed to feel sorry for you, huh? [:-)] That being said, acouple of things are worth thinking about. Since you are making your ownrods, breaking a rod, or putting a set in a rod you built, is no major problem. You can repair it yourself. I built an 8' 6" hollow 9 weight. It was on theheavy side, but excelled at throwing large flies long distances. With a fewweeks conditioning, throwing that rod for 14 hours a day was not souncomfortable that I avoided it. The 15-35 minute battles with big (up to 35lbs.) King Salmon did leave a slight set, but it was easily removed at home. Train yourself to turn the rod over occasionally in order to apply some strainin the opposite direction. I never learned to do that. Second, you may have to be willing to live with some of the limitations ofthe material you are using to make rods. I know I'll hurt some feelings here,but bamboo may not be the best material for heavy saltwater rods. I thinkmost anglers would enjoy a 9' 10 weight graphite rod more than a similarlysized bamboo rod. Even a 10 weight is going to be on the small side forregular bouts with 20-50 lb tarpon. In fact, I think that regularly fightingfish that size is better accomplished with baitcasting rigs than fly rods.(Flame away, it's just my opinion) Even with drags that will stop a truck, afly reel largely limits the amount of line you retrieve with each turn of thehandle, and pushes the limits of sport. I know it can be done, I just wonder ifit should. Harry Jkvseafood@aol.com wrote: i could really use the groups help. i'm making a 815 dickerson taper rod tofish for snook, redfish and bonefish in so florida. i'm worried that this rodmay may not hold up to the pressure. i will be catching 7-20 lb fish on aregular basis. i could, if i chose to, catch from 10 to 20, 20 - 50 lb. tarpon ina single day. i will be using a 6- 12 lb tippet. i've been told that if i make aheavier rod say a 9 ft 10 wt that the rod would be very heavy and notenjoyable to use. i'm worried about sets and the like using the 7 wt this way.please HHEELLPP!!!!!!!!! what do you guys think. i'm lucky to have the greatfishing down here, if you guys are coming this way ask and i'll direct you tothe hot spots. i've built graphite for 25 years and am just startting to makebamboo. i was a commercial fisherman for 10 years ( hook and line) andreally know the area. thanks for your help, johnhenry mitchell rod man.not in book. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Mon Feb 11 11:59:29 2002 g1BHxS820252 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:59:29 -0600 Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:59:26 +0000 Subject: Re: Rod Weights I have just taken receipt of a Farlows Lee Wulff 'Midge' and the rod ismarked as 1 7/8ozs. ............I weighed the rod on my wifes kitchen scales this weekend and it came inat under 2 ozs ............Paul WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Ralph, Rods that were weighed before the fittings were mounted were not meanttosatisfy our legalistic propensities toward "truth-in-advertizing." Instead,they were weighed at that point in their construction as evidence of a rod'sability to handle a fly line of a certain weight (back in the days when therelationship between silk line, rod length and rod weight was a relevant,determining indicator). The weight of the cane, alone (relative to a rod's length), told a customerwhat to expect of that rod's action. Vince, did not like that system either, but it was because he believed sofervently that hardware itself was bound to alter a rod's action. So hebuilt his lightest rods with small grips, cork reel seats (or balsa),mounted with light aluminum rings, and only a couple coats of very thinvarnish. Then he would weigh. Vince spent many, many years of trial-and-error before he was able toobtainthe the "magic" combination of strength and minimum weight in the cane.Everything depends upon how the shape (trajectory) of the convex tapersaremanaged within each of the rod's sections. One does not simply look at hisdrawings in "The Ring of The Rise" and then go build the rod. You can builda good, fishable rod, no doubt, but you probably will not have built thevery lightest rod that COULD be built. That was what Vince spent yearssearching out. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Ralph W. Moon" Cc: Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 10:45 AMSubject: Re: Rod Weights Don It was my understanding that the rod weight was figured before the fittings. I always thought that was a stupid idea, because how couldanybody ever check it out without tearing the rod to pieces. Ralph Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys/Gals, Some time ago there was a discussion of when rods should be weighed.Just finished up my rendition of the tapers drawings that VinceMarinaro included in the "Ring of the Rise". He says that the rod should weight under4 ozs. In my case, the raw cane without gluing or other finishing itemscameabout at 3.3 ozs. Based on the fact that says that he builds all his rods for a 5 weight line it would seem that the rod I've made that casts a 5 weight cannot haveany more cane removed anywhere and still cast a 5 wt. So did you think that he might have weighed it without fittings? Is this typical of rodmakers or lawyers or only in combination? catch ya' Donhttp://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Mon Feb 11 12:09:33 2002 g1BI9W821106 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:09:32 - Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:09:01 PST Subject: What is the best Polyurethane finish? Going to try some impregnating with Poly, what wouldyou consider the best poly on the market? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!http://greetings.yahoo.com from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Mon Feb 11 12:52:06 2002 g1BIq5823284 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:52:05 - Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:52:04 -0600content-class: urn:content- classes:messageSubject: RE: heavy use rod?????????? Thread-Topic: heavy use rod?????????? Thread-Index: AcGzI9wswK4irh8VEda4IgBglOouXwAB2sow FILETIME=[32BA87B0:01C1B32D] g1BIq5823285 As usual Harry makes some good points. I wonder, though, whether a goodbamboo solutions wouldn't be a two-handed rod. I don't mean a Spey rod built with a two-handed grip. That's what a lot of those graphite so-called Speyrods are anyway - they're just humongous stiff tip-action fly rods. Perhaps9' would be long enough, but a two-handed approach might allow a 10' or 12'rod. I did recently use a Sharpes 12' bamboo Spey rod for a day and found itmanageable, once I got the hang of it. This would make the weight a lot moremanageable while allowing you to build a bamboo rod heavy enough for thepurpose. I've never known of a bamboo rod made this way, not that I'm anexpert - maybe someone else on this list does - but you might have to dosome experimenting. I know one thing for sure, you can cast a hell of a longway and handle a lot more rod with two hands than with one, and it's not hardto learn if !you can already cast one-handed. Barry Kling PS And since you mentioned it....I'm going to be in Tampa for two days latethis month (Feb) and want to do some fishing. I won't have a boat and willhave to wade. Any advice on good locations within an hour or two drive ofthere will be gratefully welcomed.....BK -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: heavy use rod?????????? John, I guess we're supposed to feel sorry for you, huh? [:-)] That being said, acouple of things are worth thinking about. Since you are making your ownrods, breaking a rod, or putting a set in a rod you built, is no major problem. You can repair it yourself. I built an 8' 6" hollow 9 weight. It was on theheavy side, but excelled at throwing large flies long distances. With a fewweeks conditioning, throwing that rod for 14 hours a day was not souncomfortable that I avoided it. The 15-35 minute battles with big (up to 35lbs.) King Salmon did leave a slight set, but it was easily removed at home. Train yourself to turn the rod over occasionally in order to apply some strainin the opposite direction. I never learned to do that. Second, you may have to be willing to live with some of the limitations ofthe material you are using to make rods. I know I'll hurt some feelings here,but bamboo may not be the best material for heavy saltwater rods. I thinkmost anglers would enjoy a 9' 10 weight graphite rod more than a similarlysized bamboo rod. Even a 10 weight is going to be on the small side forregular bouts with 20-50 lb tarpon. In fact, I think that regularly fightingfish that size is better accomplished with baitcasting rigs than fly rods.(Flame away, it's just my opinion) Even with drags that will stop a truck, afly reel largely limits the amount of line you retrieve with each turn of thehandle, and pushes the limits of sport. I know it can be done, I just wonder ifit should. Harry Jkvseafood@aol.com wrote: i could really use the groups help. i'm making a 815 dickerson taper rod tofish for snook, redfish and bonefish in so florida. i'm worried that this rodmay may not hold up to the pressure. i will be catching 7-20 lb fish on aregular basis. i could, if i chose to, catch from 10 to 20, 20 - 50 lb. tarpon ina single day. i will be using a 6- 12 lb tippet. i've been told that if i make aheavier rod say a 9 ft 10 wt that the rod would be very heavy and notenjoyable to use. i'm worried about sets and the like using the 7 wt this way.please HHEELLPP!!!!!!!!! what do you guys think. i'm lucky to have the greatfishing down here, if you guys are coming this way ask and i'll direct you tothe hot spots. i've built graphite for 25 years and am just startting to makebamboo. i was a commercial fisherman for 10 years ( hook and line) andreally know the area. thanks for your help, johnhenry mitchell rod man.not in book. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from jerryy@webtv.net Mon Feb 11 13:29:34 2002 g1BJTX825273 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:29:33 - by mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with 2117.public.lawson.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id LAA01662; ETAtAhRuyayTHpK6xUvuVnRbKOn2Tgr37wIVAISMK7HsQ34x4Ox4sZKw69/vasoz EST Built a 8 1/2 ft. #10 wt. last winter and used it on Alaskan Kings(50-80 lbs.). Fish small streams next to the ocean. Casting is not apriority but turning the fish is. Started with a 9 1/2 ft. #9 wt Payne.That Payne would be a definate possibility. Double built and hollowedit and removed 28% of the weight. Thought of a two handed rod butwanted to be able to use a haul. Besides Alaskan streams lined withmoose willow is not a place for long lining. Made a short 2 1/2"fighting butt. Only fished salmon one day but that rod turned ninereally big fish. Regards, Jerry Young from lkoeser@ceva.net Mon Feb 11 13:58:49 2002 g1BJwm826955 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:58:48 -0600 Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:48:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Rod Weights I did my interpretation of a Vince Marinaro design version using a =Garrison 212E in 3pc. It weighs 6 ozs. I use REC Ti snake guides. It =won't wear me down.Lee Subject: Rod Weights Guys/Gals, Some time ago there was a discussion of when rods should be weighed.Just finished up my rendition of the tapers drawings that Vince =Marinaro included in the "Ring of the Rise". He says that the rod should =weight under 4 ozs. In my case, the raw cane without gluing or other =finishing items came about at 3.3 ozs.Based on the fact that says that he builds all his rods for a 5 weight =line it would seem that the rod I've made that casts a 5 weight cannot =have any more cane removed anywhere and still cast a 5 wt.So did you think that he might have weighed it without fittings? Is =this typical of rodmakers or lawyers or only in combination? catch ya' Don Marinaro design version using a Garrison 212E in 3pc. It weighs 6 ozs. I = Ti snake guides. It won't wear me down.Lee ----- Original Message ----- & Sandy Andersen Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002= AMSubject: Rod WeightsGuys/Gals,Some time ago there was adiscussion = rods should be weighed.Just finished up my rendition of the tapers = drawings that Vince Marinaro included in the "Ring of the Rise". He = the rod should weight under 4 ozs. In my case, the raw cane without = other finishing items came about at 3.3 ozs.Based on the fact that = that he builds all his rods for a 5 weight line it would seem that the = I've made that casts a 5 weight cannot have any more cane removed = still cast a 5 wt.So did you think that he might have weighed it = from bamboorodmaker@hotmail.com Mon Feb 11 14:33:17 2002 g1BKXG829940 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:33:16 - Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:33:11 -0800 Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:33:10 GMT Subject: Hello list:) FILETIME=[5267EEF0:01C1B33B] Just signed back up for a while. My college education is off to a good about making Bamboo Fly Rods LOL (didn't see that coming I'll bet.:)) My best the list, I'm practically an expert on the subject of plagerism LOL a psychology class LOL:)) just kidding around anything?Tony Miller (always in the dog house) Send and receiveHotmail on your mobile device: ClickHere from aport@si.rr.com Mon Feb 11 14:45:18 2002