from ajthramer@hotmail.com Fri Mar 1 02:50:08 2002 g218o7813091 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 02:50:07 -0600 Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:50:02 -0800 Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:50:02 GMT Subject: Warped forms FILETIME=[136C85F0:01C1C0FE] Don't worry about forms that are warped along their length, most of us who made forms from the first edition of Garrisons book quickly found that there was an error in the dimensions for the tip side of the forms. The solution was to mill or grind .020 off of one side of the CR steel forms leading to a 1/4 to 3/8" bow in the forms. I kind of wonder if that is how Garrisons forms were warped also. Anyway, lots of well planed rods have been made from warped forms. If you are having problems with the integrity of the glued up sections you should look elsewhere.A.J. _________________________________________________________________MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx from homes-sold@attbi.com Fri Mar 1 03:37:25 2002 g219bO813755 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 03:37:24 -0600 Subject: Old Rods & Reels Neighbor of mine husband past away a few months ago she ask me if I knew =the worth of some fishing gear. Knowing that her husband was a saltwater = Turns out there are three 9' 3 piece bamboo rods, small casting reel, =automatic fly reel, and some flys still in the box. The rods belonging to his father are: Hardy, Devine & a custom rod. =Pat's father, Lunsford Dickson Fricks, was born in 1873 & retired in =1937 a famous doctor. Pat never used the rods so they have been in rod = The custom rod has a unique case, it looks like a 2x2 cover with a =velvet. Each face of the 2x2 has inlets the shape of the rod sections, =butt including the grip, mid section and the other two surfaces hold the =two tips. It even has indentations for the guides to fit and protect =them. Ends of the case are covered with leather and there are two small =leather straps to hold the sections in their grooves, clever ! Casting reel, says Julius Vom Hofe, Pat Nov 17 85 & Oct 8 1889.Fly reel, Diamond Automatic, Pat Nov 19' 07 & has a silk line on it. Anyone care to give some words of wisdom to tell this lady? I have some pictures I can send on request. TIA, Don Neighbor of mine husband past away a = she ask me if I knew the worth of some fishing gear. Knowing that her = was a saltwater guy I naturally thought that was the type of gear, = Turns out there are three 9' 3 piece = box. The rods belonging to his father are: = & retired in 1937 a famous doctor. Pat never used the rods so they = in rod bags and cases forever. Look in pretty good shape. The custom rod has a unique case, it = rod sections, butt including the grip, mid section and the other two = hold the two tips. It even has indentations for the guides to fit and = them. Ends of the case are covered with leather and there are two small = straps to hold the sections in their grooves, clever ! Reels: Casting reel, says Julius Vom Hofe, Pat= Fly reel, Diamond Automatic, Pat Nov = & has a silk line on it. Anyone care to give some words of = this lady? request. TIA,Don from petermckean@netspace.net.au Fri Mar 1 04:42:30 2002 g21AgS814374 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 04:42:28 -0600 g21AgJO68311; Subject: Re: Delamination city You know, Gerald, I may be missing the point here; but in my opinion itwould need to be a REALLY good lot of cane to be worth all that buggerisingabout. You would do it quicker, and probably better, from scratch, wouldn't you? Cheers Peter from petermckean@netspace.net.au Fri Mar 1 05:05:42 2002 g21B5f814735 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:05:41 -0600 g21B5ZV71369; Subject: Re: Old Rods & Reels Don Vom who? Was that "Hope"? Or "Rofe" maybe? Nah, cannot possibly be of any use to anyone! Send it over and I'll get rid of it for you. Don't bother to thank me - gladto help. Peter from briansr@point-net.com Fri Mar 1 07:10:14 2002 g21DAD815983 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:10:13 -0600 Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:45:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Old Rods & Reels DonA Julius Vom Hofe casting reel usually goes between 350 to 500 $U.S.More =if it's mint.Cheers Brian Subject: Old Rods & Reels Neighbor of mine husband past away a few months ago she ask me if I =knew the worth of some fishing gear. Knowing that her husband was a = Turns out there are three 9' 3 piece bamboo rods, small casting reel, =automatic fly reel, and some flys still in the box. The rods belonging to his father are: Hardy, Devine & a custom rod. =Pat's father, Lunsford Dickson Fricks, was born in 1873 & retired in =1937 a famous doctor. Pat never used the rods so they have been in rod = The custom rod has a unique case, it looks like a 2x2 cover with a =velvet. Each face of the 2x2 has inlets the shape of the rod sections, =butt including the grip, mid section and the other two surfaces hold the =two tips. It even has indentations for the guides to fit and protect =them. Ends of the case are covered with leather and there are two small =leather straps to hold the sections in their grooves, clever ! Casting reel, says Julius Vom Hofe, Pat Nov 17 85 & Oct 8 1889.Fly reel, Diamond Automatic, Pat Nov 19' 07 & has a silk line on it. Anyone care to give some words of wisdom to tell this lady? I have some pictures I can send on request. TIA, Don DonA Julius Vom Hofe casting reel usually goes between= $U.S.More if it's mint.Cheers Brian ----- Original Message ----- Schneider Sent: March 1, 2002 4:41 =AMSubject: Old Rods & =Reels Neighbor of mine husband past away a = ago she ask me if I knew the worth of some fishing gear. Knowing that = husband was a saltwater guy I naturally thought that was the type of = wrong! Turns out there are three 9' 3 piece = box. The rods belonging to his father are: = Devine & a custom rod. Pat's father, Lunsford Dickson = born in 1873 & retired in 1937 a famous doctor. Pat never used the = they have been in rod bags and cases forever. Look in pretty good = The custom rod has a unique case, it = rod sections, butt including the grip, mid section and the other two = hold the two tips. It even has indentations for the guides to fit and = them. Ends of the case are covered with leather and there are two = leather straps to hold the sections in their grooves, clever =! Reels: Casting reel, says Julius Vom Hofe, = Fly reel, Diamond Automatic, Pat Nov = & has a silk line on it. Anyone care to give some words of = this lady? request. TIA, =Don from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Fri Mar 1 07:43:35 2002 g21DhY816577 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:43:34 -0600 g21DhVdd000659 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:43:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Warped forms AJ, Hmmm, I just had my forms built per the Garrison specs, also from the first edition. Where is the dimensional error? I don't have the book here at work, and I'm in the process of tuning my forms at home. Thanks,Mark At 08:50 AM 3/1/2002 +0000, you wrote: Don't worry about forms that are warped along their length, most of us who made forms from the first edition of Garrisons book quickly found that there was an error in the dimensions for the tip side of the forms. The solution was to mill or grind .020 off of one side of the CR steel forms leading to a 1/4 to 3/8" bow in the forms. I kind of wonder if that is how Garrisons forms were warped also. Anyway, lots of well planed rods have been made from warped forms. If you are having problems with theintegrity of the glued up sections you should look elsewhere.A.J. _________________________________________________________________MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Mar 1 08:47:30 2002 g21ElT818966 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:47:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Grand Experiment To all,Can anyone tell me the dates for Grayrock this coming June? I'd like to be there this year.Regards,Hank. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Mar 1 08:56:09 2002 g21Eu7819457 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:56:08 -0600 Subject: Re: Warped forms They could almost be in an S shape as long as the groove is correct unless you plan on laying the glued blank in the form to let it cure straight which it wouldn't IF the form was almost an S shape.Meaning I can't see it matters. Tony At 08:50 AM 3/1/2002 +0000, you wrote: Don't worry about forms that are warped along their length, most of us who made forms from the first edition of Garrisons book quickly found that there was an error in the dimensions for the tip side of the forms. The solution was to mill or grind .020 off of one side of the CR steel forms leading to a 1/4 to 3/8" bow in the forms. I kind of wonder if that is how Garrisons forms were warped also. Anyway, lots of well planed rods have been made from warped forms. If you are having problems with the integrity of the glued up sections you should look elsewhere.A.J. _________________________________________________________________MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Fri Mar 1 09:02:54 2002 g21F2r819986 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:02:53 -0600 g21F2qdd002402 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:02:52 -0500 Subject: Re: New Workbench, and wood vise Mark, I used to build planes for guys too. Got burned out on that too. Stopped making airplanes for almost three years. Good thing I had a good stock of already finished birds in the hangar. I've gotten away from the war bird stuff, and have gotten back to my first passion in flying - pattern. There's nothing quite like a graceful 2 meter pattern ship going through it's paces, and even when not practicing precision aerobatics, they are just so graceful flying around burning holes in the sky. Another great way to escape from the every day stresses. I'm currently flying a 2 meter Sequel, with a YS 120 AC for power, running 30% fuel through it with a 15" x 12" APC pattern prop on the front. The bird weighs in at just over 10 lbs, and will go vertical forever. If you think 'boo rod builders are anal, you should see pattern flyers when they build their ships.... Measuring wing incidence down to less than 1/2 of a degree, control throws to less than 1/10 of a degree using laser throw meters, using gram scales to measure balsa so they can get the lightest wings, etc.... Probably why I'm going to enjoy building bamboo. I've spent the last three nights tuning up my forms, and there's something to be said for a draw file going down the forms, and taking off little metal bits.... Kinda like the Neanderthal planers, and the music they hear when they are planing wood.... Mark At 08:19 PM 2/28/2002 -0500, you wrote: In a message dated 2/28/02 8:10:41 AM Central Standard Time,wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil writes: I think you were in a similar situation to me. I did not make "kits" but Ibuilt models for other people and did set up for a couple of local shops. Acouple of my friends are prolific modelers. the designer of th IO andCallisto Sailplanes,the designer of the Chuperosa sailplane (I have anoriginal prototype of LeRoys first Chup') are both friends. Paul McIlrath,who designed several gummyband free flighters for Sig is a friend (the 29er,the Cabinaire, the Customaire) and I built something like 29 sig "wonders"Which are ablout the same scale as a 1/12 warbird. My last one had slightlyclipped wings (foam with tagboard skins) of about 32 inches and a Fox BB.15.My favorite "Russian" color scheme. though, ya know, the 48 inch wingversion was probably more manouverable (that one was a spitfire-ishcovering)and it had a plain bearing .15 from a chinese engine maker or somethign. TheFox BB .15 version was BLINDINGLY fast! Scary! The little Fox turned19,000rpm and sounded like a huge mosquito! A very angry mosquito! Fun. I hadthe ailerons sized up and set on "stun" I could get it to blur! yeah baby!But at this point I am not building or flying much. I have a Lil'Birdsailplane (2 M) that is about the best flying sailplane I have ever owned,but have not launched it in about 2 years.Ah well, life is like that. The junque goes and the good stuff stays! mark from splitcane@t-online.de Fri Mar 1 09:08:43 2002 g21F8g820394 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:08:42 -0600 id 16goeB-0003X8-04; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:08:35 +0100 fwd11.sul.t-online.com Subject: Re: Warped forms Hi Mr. Kifer,your problem and all suggestions of the list sound familiar [:)] . I'ld just liketo ad one thing: heat that da**d steel up to 1000ŸC and let it cool off slowly.(you should have done it before working your a** off on this uncooperativebarof iron [:)] cuMichael W Kifer schrieb: Hello all, Anyone know an inexpensive way to straighten cold rolled forms? I finishedmy forms to within .005 on the grooves with the intention of finishing witha triangle stone. I recently got them out to finish and found they bowedslightly from end to end. Maybe 3/8" high in the middle when laid flat.Youcan see the bow when sighting down the forms. They are still flat side toside. I don't know why I didn't notice this when working on them earlier.It's been suggested I clamp them to a flat surface, finish the grooves, anduse them anyway. Being somewhat obsessive about accuracy I know it'sgoingto bug the heck out of me knowing they're not flat. I'm also concerned withplaning accuracy. Barring any way to straighten them, I could use suggestions on alternativetypes of steel. The one and only supplier in the area can't get stressrelieved square stock. Any constructive suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks,Wayne from dickay@alltel.net Fri Mar 1 09:43:22 2002 g21FhH822236 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:43:17 -0600 Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:43:12 -0600 Subject: Re: Grand Experiment Hank, It's usually the weekend after Father's Day. Wouldn't that be June20- 23Dick Fuhrman----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Grand Experiment To all,Can anyone tell me the dates for Grayrock this coming June? I'd like to be there this year.Regards,Hank. from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Fri Mar 1 10:09:45 2002 g21G9i823653 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:09:44 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:54:39 -0600 Subject: RE: Warped forms Hi Wayne. I would not invest 1 hour of work on a set of bars that were notstress-relieved. I've seen some parts here in our plant that were machinedand complete. Then they dropped the part and it distorted in a way thatsimply boggles the mind. Not just simple brinelling of the part at thepoint of impact, but the whole part went haywire.... When tracing back the heat lot of the steel, it was found that they left outthe stress-relieving. Mechanical shock, temperature variations, who knowswhat else, can set off an internal "explosion" within the steel'scrystalline structure. It's horrific, and I could imagine how I'd feelafter investing 50+ hours (like I have in my forms), only to have themrendered unusable due to internal stresses.... I would say that would be the most critical property of the steel that youpurchase. More important than minimum yield strength, elongation, Charpy'simpact resistance, corrosion resistance, etc. Find another supplier if hecan't get you stress relieved bar. I would agree with all the posts thatsay they'll be fine to use as-is, but my concern would be that the surfacesmay not stay flat to each other, the groove may not stay perpendicular tothe surface (twisting), etc down the road. Guess I'm a glass- half-emptysorta guy when it comes to materials..... MHO -- TAM-----Original Message----- Subject: Warped forms Hello all, Anyone know an inexpensive way to straighten cold rolled forms? I finished my forms to within .005 on the grooves with the intention of finishing with a triangle stone. I recently got them out to finish and found they bowed slightly from end to end. Maybe 3/8" high in the middle when laid flat.You can see the bow when sighting down the forms. They are still flat side to side. I don't know why I didn't notice this when working on them earlier. It's been suggested I clamp them to a flat surface, finish the grooves, and use them anyway. Being somewhat obsessive about accuracy I know it's going to bug the heck out of me knowing they're not flat. I'm also concerned with planing accuracy. Barring any way to straighten them, I could use suggestions on alternative types of steel. The one and only supplier in the area can't get stress relieved square stock. Any constructive suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks,Wayne from trpgo@msn.com Fri Mar 1 10:09:52 2002 g21G9p823663 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:09:51 -0600 Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:09:42 -0800 Subject: Bumped off list FILETIME=[7F3474E0:01C1C13B] Just a question to find out why I have been bumped off the Rodmakers list=twice this week. Has this been happening to anyone else? Tom Just aquestio=n to find out why I have been bumped off the Rodmakers list twice this we= Tom from wkifer@harborside.com Fri Mar 1 11:17:56 2002 g21HHt827274 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:17:55 -0600 Subject: Forms --=======477F7B41======= ascii; format=flowed Thanks all, I believe I'll finish them as is, build a new set later. Yes, I'm a bit anal about this kind of thing. I admit it. I appreciate all the feedback. Wayne --=======477F7B41=======-- from caneman@clnk.com Fri Mar 1 13:01:28 2002 g21J1S802302 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:01:28 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:59:57 -0600 Subject: Tradition in Rodmaking This morning I got an email that made me think a little bit about our =craft. We do things because it is "tradition" and many times never =bother to investigate WHY. We do things like use only silk thread, only =Nickel Silver reel seats, only use particular types of finishes, only =use certain style guides, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's ="tradition" to use these things. This little story has a pretty good =point to it. I thought it pretty much applied to all of us =rodmonkeys... er, uh.. RodMakers. Enjoy it! Later,Bob Tradition Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with coldwater.After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try toprevent it.Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage andreplace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants toclimb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeysattack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he triesto climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. Theprevious newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, =then thefifth.Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked.Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were notpermitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in thebeating of the newest monkey.After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Becauseas far as they know that's just the way it's always been done. And that, my friends, is how TRADITION begins. This morning I got an email that made me think a little bit = Silver reel seats, only use particular types of finishes, only use = guides, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's "tradition" to use these = it! Later,Bob Tradition cage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. = long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the = Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with = makes = attempt with the same result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with = water. Pretty soon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, = water. Remove one monkey from the cage andreplace it with a new one.= monkey sees the banana and wants toclimb the stairs. To his surprise = horror, all of the other monkeysattack him. After another attempt = monkeys and replace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the = monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked.Most of the monkeys that = beating him have no idea why they were notpermitted to climb the = the remainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. = no monkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why= from jvswan@earthlink.net Fri Mar 1 13:15:26 2002 g21JFP803228 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:15:26 -0600 (216.160.236.98) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3097829724_2207202 Reminds me of the urban legend about the new bride who cut the end off herham roasts before cooking the thing. Having never seen ham prepared thisway, the new husband asked why she did that. She said because that is howone cooks a ham, silly. Well, the husband asked the mother and got thesam=eresponse. When he asked the girls grandmother, though, he found out thatshe only had short pans and usually needed to do that so that the ham wouldfit. So, the real rodmakers=B9 question I want to ask is this, what are thesacrosanct traditions? I know rodmakers who use polyurethane finishes. Ihave seen many aluminum reel seats. Are the traditions cosmetic,generally=?Or are there some procedural traditions that may be superfluous? Jason On 3/1/02 11:59 AM, "Bob Nunley" wrote: This morning I got an email that made me think a little bit about our cra= ft. We do things because it is "tradition" and many times never bother toinvestigate WHY. We do things like use only silk thread, only Nickel Sil= ver reel seats, only use particular types of finishes, only use certain styleguides, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's "tradition" to use these th= ings. This little story has a pretty good point to it. I thought it pretty muc= h applied to all of us rodmonkeys... er, uh.. RodMakers. Enjoy it! Later,Bob Tradition Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with coldwater.After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try toprevent it.Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage andreplace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants toclimb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeysattack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he triesto climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. Theprevious newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, = then thefifth.Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked.Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were notpermitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in thebeating of the newest monkey.After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Becauseas far as they know that's just the way it's always been done. And that, my friends, is how TRADITION begins. --B_3097829724_2207202 Re: Tradition in Rodmaking Reminds me of the urban legend about the newbride who= never=seen ham prepared this way, the new husband asked why she did that. gr=andmother, though, he found out that she only had short pans and usuallynee=ded to do that so that the ham would fit. So, the real rodmakers’ question I want to ask is this, what are the = finishes.= cosmet= sup=erfluous? Jason wrote: Thismorning I got a= because it is "tradition" and many times never bother toinvestiga= l seats, only use particular types of finishes, only use certain style guide=s, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's "tradition" to use these = oy it! Later,Bob Tradition monkeys=. Inside the cage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with coldwater. with=the same result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try toprevent it. monkey fro=m the cage andreplace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wantstoclimb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeysattack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if hetriesto climb the stairs, he will be assaulted. a=nd replace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. Theprevious newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, th=en thefifth. stairs, h=e is attacked.Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they werenotpermitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in thebeating of the newest monkey. t=he remainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, nomonkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not?Because as far as they know that's just the way it's always been done. how TR=ADITION begins. --B_3097829724_2207202-- from ctcaneman@yahoo.com Fri Mar 1 13:26:14 2002 g21JQD804064 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:26:13 -0600 01 Mar 2002 11:26:13 PST Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking Monkeys can make cane rods? --- Bob Nunley wrote: This morning I got an email that made me think alittle bit about our craft. We do things because itis "tradition" and many times never bother toinvestigate WHY. We do things like use only silkthread, only Nickel Silver reel seats, only useparticular types of finishes, only use certain styleguides, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's"tradition" to use these things. This little storyhas a pretty good point to it. I thought it prettymuch applied to all of us rodmonkeys... er, uh..RodMakers. Enjoy it! Later,Bob Tradition Start with a cage containing five monkeys.Inside the cage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs underit. Before long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climbtowards the banana. Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of theother monkeys with coldwater.After a while, another monkey makes an attemptwith the same result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water.Pretty soon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, the othermonkeys will try toprevent it.Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage andreplace it with a new one. The new monkey sees thebanana and wants toclimb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all ofthe other monkeysattack him. After another attempt and attack, heknows that if he triesto climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.Next, remove another of the original fivemonkeys and replace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs andis attacked. Theprevious newcomer takes part in the punishment withenthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a newone, then a fourth, then thefifth.Every time the newest monkey takes to thestairs, he is attacked.Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no permitted to climb the stairs or why they areparticipating in thebeating of the newest monkey.After replacing all the original monkeys, noneof the remainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water.Nevertheless, no monkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for thebanana. Why not? Becauseas far as they know that's just the way it's alwaysbeen done.And that, my friends, is howTRADITION begins. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!http://greetings.yahoo.com from ttalsma@macatawa.org Fri Mar 1 13:28:47 2002 g21JSl804434 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:28:47 -0600 id ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:21:35 -0500 id F563CFLS; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:21:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking As with business (I'm sure noone has ever heard this before), just askthe question, "Why do we do it that way?" The response, "Because that'sthe way we've always done it." About drives me nuts when I hear this. Kudos to all of those out there that question tradition and come up withnew ways of building rods. Jason Swan wrote: Reminds me of the urban legend about the new bride who cut the end offher ham roasts before cooking the thing. Having never seen hamprepared this way, the new husband asked why she did that. She saidbecause that is how one cooks a ham, silly. Well, the husband askedthe mother and got the same response. When he asked the girlsgrandmother, though, he found out that she only had short pans andusually needed to do that so that the ham would fit. So, the real rodmakers' question I want to ask is this, what are thesacrosanct traditions? I know rodmakers who use polyurethanefinishes. I have seen many aluminum reel seats. Are the traditionscosmetic, generally? Or are there some procedural traditions that maybe superfluous? Jason On 3/1/02 11:59 AM, "Bob Nunley" wrote: This morning I got an email that made me think a little bitabout our craft. We do things because it is "tradition" andmany times never bother to investigate WHY. We do thingslike use only silk thread, only Nickel Silver reel seats,only use particular types of finishes, only use certainstyle guides, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's"tradition" to use these things. This little story has apretty good point to it. I thought it pretty much appliedto all of us rodmonkeys... er, uh.. RodMakers. Enjoy it! Later,Bob Tradition Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside thecage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs under it.Before long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards thebanana. Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the othermonkeys with coldwater.After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with thesame result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Prettysoon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeyswill try toprevent it.Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from thecage andreplace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the bananaand wants toclimb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of theother monkeysattack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows thatif he triesto climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.Next, remove another of the original five monkeys andreplace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and isattacked. Theprevious newcomer takes part in the punishment withenthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one,then a fourth, then thefifth.Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he isattacked.Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea whythey were notpermitted to climb the stairs or why they are participatingin thebeating of the newest monkey.After replacing all the original monkeys, none of theremainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water.Nevertheless, no monkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Whynot? Becauseas far as they know that's just the way it's always beendone. And that, my friends, is how TRADITIONbegins. -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from dmanders@telusplanet.net Fri Mar 1 14:08:30 2002 Received: from g21K8T806646 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 edtnes03-hme0.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.01 201-253-122-122- X-Sender:dmanders/pop.telusplanet.net@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: Windows caneman@clnk.com From: Don & Sandy AndersenSubject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking Cc: "Rod dmanders@telusplanet.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Bob,Best way I've ever heard it said: "tradition is no excuse" catch ya' Don At12:59 PM 3/1/02 -0600, Bob Nunley wrote: arialThis morning I gotanemail that made me think a little bit about our craft. We do thingsbecause it is "tradition" and many times never bother to investigate WHY.We do things like use only silk thread, only Nickel Silver reel seats,only use particular types of finishes, only use certain style guides,etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's "tradition" to use these things.This little story has a pretty good point to it. I thought it prettymuch applied to all of us rodmonkeys... er, uh.. RodMakers. Enjoy it! Later, Bob Tradition arial Start with a cagecontainingfive monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result - all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it. Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted. Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth,then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that's just the way it's always been done. And that, my friends, is how TRADITION begins. ffff,0000,0000http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from kenealyj@gwi.net Fri Mar 1 14:09:20 2002 g21K9I807023 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:09:18 -0600 Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking I prove that one every day! [;-)] ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking Monkeys can make cane rods? --- Bob Nunley wrote: This morning I got an email that made me think alittle bit about our craft. We do things because itis "tradition" and many times never bother toinvestigate WHY. We do things like use only silkthread, only Nickel Silver reel seats, only useparticular types of finishes, only use certain styleguides, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's"tradition" to use these things. This little storyhas a pretty good point to it. I thought it prettymuch applied to all of us rodmonkeys... er, uh..RodMakers. Enjoy it! Later,Bob Tradition Start with a cage containing five monkeys.Inside the cage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs underit. Before long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climbtowards the banana. Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of theother monkeys with coldwater.After a while, another monkey makes an attemptwith the same result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water.Pretty soon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, the othermonkeys will try toprevent it.Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage andreplace it with a new one. The new monkey sees thebanana and wants toclimb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all ofthe other monkeysattack him. After another attempt and attack, heknows that if he triesto climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.Next, remove another of the original fivemonkeys and replace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs andis attacked. Theprevious newcomer takes part in the punishment withenthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a newone, then a fourth, then thefifth.Every time the newest monkey takes to thestairs, he is attacked.Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no permitted to climb the stairs or why they areparticipating in thebeating of the newest monkey.After replacing all the original monkeys, noneof the remainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water.Nevertheless, no monkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for thebanana. Why not? Becauseas far as they know that's just the way it's alwaysbeen done.And that, my friends, is howTRADITION begins. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!http://greetings.yahoo.com from kenealyj@gwi.net Fri Mar 1 14:12:36 2002 g21KCZ808619 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:12:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking Someone said, I think that it was on this list, that the old timers used thebest of what was available to them. I use titanium guides, because I think they are better than other types(justmy opinion, not pushing it on anyone!!!!!!!! I don't want to start anargument over guide choice). Some traditions are nice, though, like silk thread- it looks nice and theguides will stay on for years. I think the original point is correct, we shouldn't hang on to traditionsjust because they are traditions. John K----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking As with business (I'm sure noone has ever heard this before), just askthe question, "Why do we do it that way?" The response, "Because that'sthe way we've always done it." About drives me nuts when I hear this. Kudos to all of those out there that question tradition and come up withnew ways of building rods. Jason Swan wrote: Reminds me of the urban legend about the new bride who cut the end offher ham roasts before cooking the thing. Having never seen hamprepared this way, the new husband asked why she did that. She saidbecause that is how one cooks a ham, silly. Well, the husband askedthe mother and got the same response. When he asked the girlsgrandmother, though, he found out that she only had short pans andusually needed to do that so that the ham would fit. So, the real rodmakers' question I want to ask is this, what are thesacrosanct traditions? I know rodmakers who use polyurethanefinishes. I have seen many aluminum reel seats. Are the traditionscosmetic, generally? Or are there some procedural traditions that maybe superfluous? Jason On 3/1/02 11:59 AM, "Bob Nunley" wrote: This morning I got an email that made me think a little bitabout our craft. We do things because it is "tradition" andmany times never bother to investigate WHY. We do thingslike use only silk thread, only Nickel Silver reel seats,only use particular types of finishes, only use certainstyle guides, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's"tradition" to use these things. This little story has apretty good point to it. I thought it pretty much appliedto all of us rodmonkeys... er, uh.. RodMakers. Enjoy it! Later,Bob Tradition Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside thecage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs under it.Before long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards thebanana. Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the othermonkeys with coldwater.After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with thesame result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Prettysoon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeyswill try toprevent it.Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from thecage andreplace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the bananaand wants toclimb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of theother monkeysattack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows thatif he triesto climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.Next, remove another of the original five monkeys andreplace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and isattacked. Theprevious newcomer takes part in the punishment withenthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one,then a fourth, then thefifth.Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he isattacked.Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea whythey were notpermitted to climb the stairs or why they are participatingin thebeating of the newest monkey.After replacing all the original monkeys, none of theremainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water.Nevertheless, no monkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Whynot? Becauseas far as they know that's just the way it's always beendone. And that, my friends, is how TRADITIONbegins. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Fri Mar 1 14:33:02 2002 g21KX1809977 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:33:01 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:32:56 -0500 Subject: radition in Rodmaking Does this apply to sic sided plastics?????? Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IgUUAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNyb3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANIHAwABAA8AJgAAAAUAFwEBA5AGAGwMAAAlAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AcAABAAAAFgAAAHJhZGl0aW9uIGluIFJvZG1ha2luZwAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAHBwWDVImwwCk4s7BHWmgKt/6StZ0QAAAIBHQwBAAAAIwAAAFNNVFA6Uk9EU1VQU1RSRUFNQEVYUExPUkVNQUlORS5DT00AAAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAGDgBEGPpgwcEBAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAAAAAAAMxU5FlSH8ERhGwGiNVQyFfCgAAACwAfDgEAAAACAQkQAQAAACEIAAAdCAAAvBYAAExaRnU/tmnHAwAKAHJjcGcxMjXyMgxgYzEDMAECAFABAUULYG4OEDAzMw8WZj5lD5IB9wKkA2MCAGNoEQrAc2V0AtFwcnFKMgAAKgqhbm8SUCAWMAHQAdA2D6AwNTDONBQhAdAUEDR9B20Cg+8AUAPUEf8TC2IT4RRQE7LPGPQU0AcTAoMyNwLjFr+PEwkcchRQHNt9U3cFsORkcxW2MjgafxuPHJ9FHaBDCsBuZWcIkEUseHQJ8AEAZAKDMzRZEY4yMx6xF3IgB20g9ENFIxQ1I48UQCS/JcWceXIjFBphEawxNhYx6ygPA4JHCdFrIxQesSoetw5QKz8Dc1QIcCMUOS1fDjcaYS6vA4IoSGViuQlwdykCgxRQMJ83JK9/MsYHEAGgDeAzpRYxKh041jY1XyXEQgdAdA3gM7TfLnEWbCSIBxMmFjQPwDs+9yfHPMUpZTQmoRZsKvg8xH0smDQ40UB+LnY8xC/2NP8aYUB9Mac8xDM8HrFF3jxM/zbMMIFAfTjHPMQ6VgKRCOaqOwlvME7PZQ4wNU/6/1ERUM9R2U/kUgJQb1Q/U/3/U39Rr0//EGAeoFnKWuFan/9bqU/kW9JaP14PXc1dT1t//V9EOQ5QYpRj8VwTY/BZw341ONAJw0iBXBRP4AKRc6h0eWwHkGgJ4HQAAPJxAyFsaQFABRABQAPwsGRjdGwKsQBgcwqwR2igH0Bo4m51bQIAYRBhdXRvAGBkanXjZtAFEGdodGgBCgFn0OUKAWkBkHAwAzEWMgwBPw9XEBgI0AnAaGBso25wd2z5bpQDMHMiQCKgbABOzwWwAMACcxMQY3MPkAMwpWpgZGvAaXYTgEQBENNqEDpwIFAKwGEJwGvg2GggRgIhZpMxJqBnkuhmaS0PkDhrUnRTaBx5M2BkcglQdfIWoHXyd/9AMTNgaQAB0HFRaQ9qH2sm33RTa89s323vbv5id7AJgD8CIHrxb+NzsHJwayF0LStzEANhOjlAb4CwU3WUYmoFkHSAsERhIrD+OnNkONBz73T/dg93H3gv/3k/ekxnIIewC4AOEnrxDDB/eyQOUHuvfL99z37ff+dS9mVx0B9hIDNAh7AEkHNk/xpggn+Dj4Sfha+GvghgaJDtC4BlZwBx0GwBQIe/iM+XidQgwQjQYgqwdDiKaP17hjIjcBAWm7GMZBNQF3D4b29mjL+Nz47XmoCP8HkLUHkvcyCUUAsRkGVz/3NkHrCRX5Jvk3+Uj4a/l4//ek97X4vvna+ev5/PoNKA0v+AdIGpMIBnn2ivpp9qz6jk/ZozOakvqj+rT6xfjsi1YLhEb2OyoAnwBUBNqPD/ZpMMAaIPox+kL6U/sk+zX/+ob7XPtt+377j/b/K/QYAP/YEcMbs0AFC7v7zPvd++7/+//8EPmJ+J74r/xF/Fb8Z//8eKj/zJxQ5Qyl/Lb8x/zY//lZ+Wr8/f0O+Z35rvm/+dD//VT9Zdb7CgP6FCycUPwNlP/9pf22/cf86f33/CH8Mv08//5Z/mr+e/rs/JpXDy46BxWffxNeRhAEA39NhxMu3gkCFPAiA88WbABaBtcBNiRfsAwAMQU2bi46C7NHPEsL//7c/u37Pv8S/yP/NP9F/WqHl/4EUt/FLI0ADA+2B0XTAAZU3zExBO4HYRESBQe1VuaxNQdxXRfY/+Mgkw/nDsQWZ0boEw1w2gIsGOoGPk0XjjQBEA1G95T2BccABwZyBOgL8R4BNQckHsQP7wCwBkutB1T6BuuUBk4qATUf6gYz8P8B3gckAQwXBw0ZJlXEpoHeB6CuJkZ/xQcvciYBHgD8BoDfM4sB+gD8D+dhCJD0EAwPBh6pAQ8xIF7jQ0ARBSD0B3QXAREhPT/4FAC/AeMAQgCuH8oPsQLnDSdiJwd2u0YGQjcBXCz/uw/xADgR+gcGfsEmcwd3FwFyUOoG8A8P7w6FB0/wlA3sEKMhi3AOD8UAAQ/vDf5NENYADgAFFOkVwAgN7g/06Q/xAqUBvBTpEWEf2wGMD3FrH+cE+gdxyDTpFOgF/Qc/2wCmByaw5h+TIkYDAfCDL3wPvgC1Fx4EM6XOpcx9BvcsFtcxD8cGcQPSAATTcQKhD7QApAIE/+ZupADiAgACG2AuML0PxS+i6OoHQJgPwQ/nCg8AFS/3AANBAKsRrA6UAZICPC3rK5A/IzNjQQI8NyFGMIwccIQf+QI8FsdmxBcP+R/yEw/8AnUbSwToAn0hYRusF+N+MR/5BA8ALAc4D/kHTxcBBhIC4IFCdWLnAn8u8MoShfKW8qf2w9oP+Q2ID/CwAsPy1PLl/jsP+QHPAr//swvzHEKSq8QEAvjzRvMaT+YkegOsE1jyeDTLAzPzf//zkPOh8nsEbQO2IoPzzPPd//KrxJwDtvQO9B/0MPJ7BLgP8/70V/Ro9HlBfQoNEX0ONA/7Rg/aD9j/6f/68AvwHPAt9/A+8E+3OA+GL5ibpwZxAgeHRoaVawtMDoQVbAb/wgcyJgV6HYgKDwH4FJYEkiYHM/WNMNCkxiIN9ZNUch6kDfIBUQZlpwXLB/tKAIMlqhtGBJYFVi+fIgAEFVVE9URVhUMExJU1RNUHOQICL9Bw4iWgBaElpw+zByUVohPjI/wPmX4z/kQuTlIFUvDABQUJCAIIBBHTBhefxzLFk/X3BEMF+/YM9h0t5UY/Nfn2VfYbRpIIC6cMp1UIF5YxVSb6DwuwD+a+lAZtVnn2EeWaZMT01f/05vT39Qj1GfUq9Tv1TM+fINbccAeHF4sAAAAAsAAYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwAQgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAACdqAQAeABKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA5LjAAHgATgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AFIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeABWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAACwAWgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAgoUAAAEAAAALAEOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMARYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwBGgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADAEeACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAAMAW4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwBsgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAABoUAAAAAAAACAfgPAQAAABAAAADMVORZUh/BEYRsBojVUMhXAgH6DwEAAAAQAAAAzFTkWVIfwRGEbAaI1VDIVwIB+w8BAAAAggAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbCAABQU1RQUlguRExMAAAAAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTkRPV1NcTG9jYWwgU2V0dGluZ3NcQXBwbGljYXRpb24gRGF0YVxNaWNyb3NvZnRcT3V0bG9va1xvdXRsb29rLnBzdAAAAAMA/g8FAAAAAwANNP03AAACAX8AAQAAAD0AAAA8TUJCQklFR01NS05NREJBSkpLRUlBRUJFQ0hBQS5yb2RzdXBzdHJlYW1AZXhwbG9yZW1haW5lLmNvbT4AAAAAAwAGEMTczXgDAAcQRgAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAEcAAABET0VTVEhJU0FQUExZVE9TSUNTSURFRFBMQVNUSUNTPz8/Pz8/VVBTVFJFQU1BTFdBWVMsVElNRE9VR0hUWVJPRE1BS0VSAADmPw== from tgoodman@mail.as.miami.edu Fri Mar 1 15:05:28 2002 g21L5R812488 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:05:28 -0600 id ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:05:22 -0500 Subject: RE: Tradition in Rodmaking this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. A fair critique, this monkey business, on all counts; we humans often don'tlike to change, and aren't half-aware of why we do things the way we do.Every new idea is worthy of consideration, and so is every old one, so everyaccepted practice in making split cane rods may be examined. The membersofthis list seem as innovative as you are traditional-but few will supportchange for the sake of change, all the same. There are values- aesthetic,cultural-worth defending on other than practical grounds. A. K. Bestdoesn't tie flies with natural materials for practical reasons or, at least,not only for practical reasons; numerous innovations have emerged fromusingsynthetic materials that are both cheaper and more widely available than thetraditional materials. But to go that route would mean missing the fun ofcollecting road kill. After all-to slide right down the slippery slope of questioning methods andtraditions-we know that most folks who fish don't fly fish, and of those whodo, most of them use graphite rods. There's little practical value inmaking and fishing rods from the lovely reed. I preach to the choir ofcourse in saying that we hold with split cane and Pearsalls' and Perfects(substitute as you like) because we like the properties of bamboo as amaterial, and the aesthetics too. (Okay; maybe it is worth noting that wehave little or no problem using an innovative reel on a classically maderod). On the technical process side, I'm sure, questions ought to beraised, and they will be: milling versus hand planing, Bob Milward'sheterodox analyses, etc. But there's a limit to our questions, isn't there?That is, we're committed to the material, and to much else. Among themanyreasons not to cast plastic is that one of the values in the livelytradition of cane rodmaking lies not only what you can do with bamboo butalso, I'd say, in what making does for the maker: what bamboo does to you.But I ain't arguing with Bob, either. --Tom CleanCleanDocumentEmail MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle- rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso- style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para- margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow- orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} A=faircritique, this monkey business, on all counts; we humans often don't =liketo change, and aren't half-aware of why we do things the way we =do.=A0 Every new idea is worthy of =consideration, andso is every old one, so every accepted practice in making split cane =rods maybe examined.=A0 The membersof =this listseem as innovative as you are traditional-but few will support change =forthe sake of change, all the same.=A0 =Thereare values-aesthetic, cultural-worth defending on other thanpractical grounds.=A0 A. K. =Best doesn'ttie flies with natural materials for practical reasons or, at least, =not only syntheticmaterials that are both cheaper and more widely available than the =traditionalmaterials. But to go that route would mean missing the fun of =collecting roadkill.=A0 = After all-toslide right down the slippery slope of questioning methods and =traditions-weknow that most folks who fish don't fly fish, and of those who do, mostof them use graphite rods.=A0 =There'slittle practical value in making and fishing rods from the lovely =reed.=A0 I preach to the choir of course =in sayingthat we hold with split cane and Pearsalls' =andPerfects (substitute as you like) because we like the properties of =bamboo as amaterial, and the aesthetics too.=A0 =(Okay;maybe it is worth noting that we have =little orno problem using an innovative reel on a classically made rod).=A0 On the technical process side, =I'm sure,questions ought to be raised, and they will be: milling versus hand =planing, Bob Milward's heterodoxanalyses, etc.=A0 But there's a=limitto our questions, isn't there?=A0 =Thatis, we're committed to the material, and to much else.=A0 Among the many reasons not to =cast plastic isthat one of the values in the lively tradition of cane rodmakinglies not only what you can do with bamboo but also, I'd say, in whatmaking does for the maker: what bamboo does to you.=A0 But I ain'targuing with Bob, either.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --Tom = from briansr@point-net.com Fri Mar 1 16:07:41 2002 g21M7e816656 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:07:40 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:42:59 -0500 Subject: St David's day Happy St. David's day ,everyoneCheersBrian from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Mar 1 16:42:05 2002 g21Mg4818548 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:42:04 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Source for waxes and Cascamite I noticed Rydenor -- http://www.rydenor.co.uk/ -- as a source for some interesting waxes and Cascamite (not Vegemite), a urea formaldehyde glue in powder form. Since the powder has a longer shelf life, this might be a cheap alternative to other UFs.-- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ >Frompaul.blakley@ntlworld.com Fri Mar 1 17:07:42 2002 Received: from mta03- g21N7f819751 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127- paul.blakley@ntlworld.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; I) X- Subject: Re: Source for waxes andCascamite References: Content-Type: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Cascamite is readillyavailable in any DIY / Ironmongers here in the UK. It has a very long shelf life(providing it is stored away from moisture ) , it's very cheap and is availablein sufficiently small quantities to be opened , used and thrown away !Likewise it's available in bulk and can be stored for long periods . It was thefavoured adhesive for UK rodbuilders in the 50's and 60's but is still usedtoday by some ..........Paul Reed Curry wrote: I noticed Rydenor -- http://www.rydenor.co.uk/ -- as a source for someinteresting waxes and Cascamite (not Vegemite), a urea formaldehyde gluein powder form. Since the powder has a longer shelf life, this might bea cheap alternative to other UFs.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from pohl@earthlink.net Fri Mar 1 17:11:58 2002 g21NBv820104 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:11:57 -0600 helo=kathypohl) id 16gwBw-00070D-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 15:11:56 -0800 Subject: making a lathe I've been lathe surfing on the net, trying to find one for rod building.Whati've been finding is either one with a small spindle bore (3/8") or one withthe center to center distance that's too short (12" is too short in myopinion). However, there is the ideal lathe from sherline (model 4400) thatfits the bill but is out of budget (~ $700, WOW!). I'm just looking forsomething to turn my ferrule stations and the cork..... I've thought ofbuilding my own, any ideas? One of mine has been to take a zyliss lathe(comes with bed and tailstock, drill is mounted for motor) and adding ahead. Or start from scratch with a couple of pillow bearings and a shaft.But where would i get the parts like the spindle (with a bore), chuck, bedand tailstock. Any help would be great! Thanks, Mark from bob@downandacross.com Fri Mar 1 17:22:31 2002 g21NMU820952 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:22:30 -0600 ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:22:19 -0500 Subject: Wiring help Hi Guys:Please help the wiring challenged. There is a diagram from a motor I havehere:http://www.downandacross.com/wiring.gif The motor is wired to 220, but I want to run at 110. Where in the diagramwould I attach the black, white, and green wires for the power cord. Blackis hot and white neutral, green is ground? What goes to AB in the 110 wiringscheme, what goes to CD? ALso, what is the best way to run a ground? Towhat? I greatly appreciate you even looking. I did order a Baldor motor to replacethis one, but why not try to run it? I know 220 is preferred, but I wouldhave to have someone come out and rewire the shop/run a 220 receptacleandadd a breaker to accomodate it. I would like to try 110 first. Thanks, Best regards, Bob M. from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Fri Mar 1 17:23:43 2002 g21NNg821122 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:23:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking The last time I used nylon thread some big guy came in my shop and sprayedme with cold water!!!never again....tom----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking Someone said, I think that it was on this list, that the old timers used the best of what was available to them. I use titanium guides, because I think they are better than other types(just my opinion, not pushing it on anyone!!!!!!!! I don't want to start anargument over guide choice). Some traditions are nice, though, like silk thread- it looks nice and theguides will stay on for years. I think the original point is correct, we shouldn't hang on to traditionsjust because they are traditions. John K----- Original Message -----From: "Todd Talsma" Cc: ; "Rodmakers" Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 2:25 PMSubject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking As with business (I'm sure noone has ever heard this before), just askthe question, "Why do we do it that way?" The response, "Because that'sthe way we've always done it." About drives me nuts when I hear this. Kudos to all of those out there that question tradition and come up withnew ways of building rods. Jason Swan wrote: Reminds me of the urban legend about the new bride who cut the endoffher ham roasts before cooking the thing. Having never seen hamprepared this way, the new husband asked why she did that. She saidbecause that is how one cooks a ham, silly. Well, the husband askedthe mother and got the same response. When he asked the girlsgrandmother, though, he found out that she only had short pans andusually needed to do that so that the ham would fit. So, the real rodmakers' question I want to ask is this, what are thesacrosanct traditions? I know rodmakers who use polyurethanefinishes. I have seen many aluminum reel seats. Are the traditionscosmetic, generally? Or are there some procedural traditions thatmaybe superfluous? Jason On 3/1/02 11:59 AM, "Bob Nunley" wrote: This morning I got an email that made me think a little bitabout our craft. We do things because it is "tradition" andmany times never bother to investigate WHY. We do thingslike use only silk thread, only Nickel Silver reel seats,only use particular types of finishes, only use certainstyle guides, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's"tradition" to use these things. This little story has apretty good point to it. I thought it pretty much appliedto all of us rodmonkeys... er, uh.. RodMakers. Enjoy it! Later,Bob Tradition Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside thecage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs under it.Before long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards thebanana. Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the othermonkeys with coldwater.After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with thesame result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Prettysoon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeyswill try toprevent it.Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from thecage andreplace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the bananaand wants toclimb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of theother monkeysattack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows thatif he triesto climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.Next, remove another of the original five monkeys andreplace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and isattacked. Theprevious newcomer takes part in the punishment withenthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one,then a fourth, then thefifth.Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he isattacked.Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea whythey were notpermitted to climb the stairs or why they are participatingin thebeating of the newest monkey.After replacing all the original monkeys, none of theremainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water.Nevertheless, no monkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Whynot? Becauseas far as they know that's just the way it's always beendone. And that, my friends, is how TRADITIONbegins. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction from bob@downandacross.com Fri Mar 1 17:27:31 2002 g21NRU821539 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:27:30 -0600 1 Mar 2002 18:27:23 -0500 Subject: RE: St David's day Hi Brian:Same to you. I never knew who St. David was until you posted that. I foundsome info here. http://www.sucs.org/~rhys/stdavid.htmlMyself, I am a good Itralian St. Joe's celebrating boy.Best regards,Robert Rocky Maulucci (yep, that's really my name, but I win a lot of $because no one can ever guess what the middle R is for) -----Original Message----- Subject: St David's day Happy St. David's day ,everyoneCheersBrian from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Fri Mar 1 17:40:36 2002 g21NeZ822322 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:40:35 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:40:30 -0600 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:25:42 -0600 Subject: Casting Clinics Y'all, I just wanted to tell you about my last couple of casting clinics. And you wouldn't believe the results. I am now of the opinion that maybegraphite is not the easiest thing to learn to cast with. I know, you'resaying "Duh, get with it Miller!" Call me a little slow.... It started when one of the students that has taken one of my classesbefore,wanted his daughter to learn to flyfish. He's been bringing her every week,and he is into cane himself, so we talk about bamboo rods all the time. Itold him that I had bought a new R.L. Nunley with a neato bamboo ferrule,and why I thought it was so smooth casting. Of course, that was likeshoving a beer in front of an alcoholic's face. Soon, everyone in the classwanted to cast it. And there was not a student that didn't reallyappreciate casting that rod. May have sold you a couple rods, there,Bob..... They all commented that they could feel everything that was goingon, and that it seemed easier to cast than their own rod, somehow. I think there is a whole undiscovered market out there, but I don't knowthat they are being reached. Of course, it is difficult with the barrage ofmarketing hype on plastic rods. But I think that this thing Ralph isputting together in Livingston, which I am so proud to help with, could be akey to getting people informed about the many benefits of cane. Until youactually feel and see a modern bamboo rod, you can't possibly come to gripswith how awesome they are (no pun intended). Preaching to the choir, Iknow.... Maybe we can do some preaching to the congregation now! : ) Those of you who are teaching casting classes, are you doing it with grassor carbon? TAM from bob@downandacross.com Fri Mar 1 18:46:27 2002 g220kQ823990 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:46:26 -0600 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.e" Subject: RE: Wiring help, Thanks for the help Guys. Got the motor working. Thanks for all the replies and the help.Tomorrow, off to the mill! Hurrah.Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Wiring help Hi Guys:Please help the wiring challenged. There is a diagram from a motor I havehere:http://www.downandacross.com/wiring.gif The motor is wired to 220, but I want to run at 110. Where in the diagramwould I attach the black, white, and green wires for the power cord. Blackis hot and white neutral, green is ground? What goes to AB in the 110 wiringscheme, what goes to CD? ALso, what is the best way to run a ground? Towhat? I greatly appreciate you even looking. I did order a Baldor motor to replacethis one, but why not try to run it? I know 220 is preferred, but I wouldhave to have someone come out and rewire the shop/run a 220 receptacleandadd a breaker to accomodate it. I would like to try 110 first. Thanks, Best regards, Bob M. from bob@downandacross.com Fri Mar 1 18:51:57 2002 g220pu824228 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:51:56 -0600 Subject: RE: Casting Clinics Troy:I agree with what you find. My casting improved a lot when I tried a mediumactioned cane. I think the next time I manage to get my wife out fishing, Iwill hand her a cane rod instead of a T&T graphite.Best regards, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Casting Clinics Y'all, I just wanted to tell you about my last couple of casting clinics. And you wouldn't believe the results. I am now of the opinion that maybegraphite is not the easiest thing to learn to cast with. I know, you'resaying "Duh, get with it Miller!" Call me a little slow.... from Notsooyoun@aol.com Fri Mar 1 19:22:08 2002 g221M7824943 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 19:22:08 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:21:59 -0500 Subject: Polishing I'm still having trouble polishing a rod section that I dipped when the varnish was too cold. I tried using micromesh in 3600 and 6000 grit, and it just removes the varnish, and dulls the finish that remains. So I sprayed the area I was trying to polish and it left a fisheye appearance. I'm using a spar polyurethane. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. A not of minor interest or perhaps not, but it is only 57 days until trout season opens in Michigan.Thanks as alwaysGary "notso" from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Fri Mar 1 19:27:46 2002 g221Rj825212 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 19:27:45 -0600 Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:27:36 -0800 Subject: Re: making a lathe FILETIME=[6F5BC4D0:01C1C189] I made a lathe out of an old black and decker valve grinding machine I foundat a garage sale. Tore it down, cleaned and lubed everything, then mountedit to a board. Got a live center from woodcraft. It is still working. Now,valve grinding machines are not common items at garage sales, but if youlook long enough you can find anything. I would check out storage unitrepossession sales. It is truly amazing what people abandon. Avoid pawnshops. Everything is overpriced, and the tools have usually seen betterdays. Of course, this comment will hopefully draw at least five "Oh yeah?Guess what I found?" stories. I hope it is at least five. Jeff Schaeffer from Troutgetter@aol.com Fri Mar 1 20:49:54 2002 g222ns826337 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:49:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Wiring help, Thanks for the help Ahh come on! What was the right answer!Mike Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Mar 1 21:03:14 2002 g2233D826671 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:03:13 -0600 Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking Bob et al.,Are you trying to tell us that we're all monkeys in a cage? I like my cage.Traditionally,Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Mar 1 21:03:21 2002 g2233K826694 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:03:20 -0600 Subject: RE: Casting Clinics rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu To all.Using a moderate action cane rod in a beginners' casting clinic makes all the difference over a graphite (you'll excuse the word). The student "feels" the rod action more readily. My wife doesn't like to see me use my cane rods Regards,Hank. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Mar 1 21:03:47 2002 g2233k826878 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:03:46 -0600 ([209.179.149.29] helo=computer) id 16gzoE-0001Oc-00; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 19:03:43 -0800 Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking A smart monkey can make can rod and so can a dumb ass! LOL The only person who controls how I make rods is the same person who paysformy tools and time...and that just happens to be me. Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking Monkeys can make cane rods? --- Bob Nunley wrote: This morning I got an email that made me think alittle bit about our craft. We do things because itis "tradition" and many times never bother toinvestigate WHY. We do things like use only silkthread, only Nickel Silver reel seats, only useparticular types of finishes, only use certain styleguides, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's"tradition" to use these things. This little storyhas a pretty good point to it. I thought it prettymuch applied to all of us rodmonkeys... er, uh..RodMakers. Enjoy it! Later,Bob Tradition Start with a cage containing five monkeys.Inside the cage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs underit. Before long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climbtowards the banana. Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of theother monkeys with coldwater.After a while, another monkey makes an attemptwith the same result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water.Pretty soon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, the othermonkeys will try toprevent it.Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage andreplace it with a new one. The new monkey sees thebanana and wants toclimb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all ofthe other monkeysattack him. After another attempt and attack, heknows that if he triesto climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.Next, remove another of the original fivemonkeys and replace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs andis attacked. Theprevious newcomer takes part in the punishment withenthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a newone, then a fourth, then thefifth.Every time the newest monkey takes to thestairs, he is attacked.Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no permitted to climb the stairs or why they areparticipating in thebeating of the newest monkey.After replacing all the original monkeys, noneof the remainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water.Nevertheless, no monkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for thebanana. Why not? Becauseas far as they know that's just the way it's alwaysbeen done. And that, my friends, is howTRADITION begins. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!http://greetings.yahoo.com from Troutgetter@aol.com Fri Mar 1 21:05:32 2002 g2235V827170 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:05:31 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:05:17 -0500 Subject: Fwd: making a lathe Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ Full-name: Troutgetter Subject: Re: making a lathe Since this seems to come up from time to time, check out this link below. http://www.littlemachineshop.com/LMS/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1525 I use a 7x10 mini lathe and have for years. I also mostly use mine for turning ferrule stations and grips, which I consider really basic. I'm saving my pennies for the bed extension, but because the 10" bed is still doing everything I need, I haven't put a priority on it. There are a lot of guys on this list who use the little Chinese lathes and are happy with them. $350.00 or less for the machine and $140.00 for the extension still keeps you under $700.00. There are better lathes available and I'm sure it would be fun to make your own, but ... Mike Shay Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Fri Mar 1 21:39:37 2002 g223da827873 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:39:36 -0600 Subject: Re: making a lathe Mark, I built my lathe years ago. It is a wood lathe, but I'm thinking of gettinga three jaw chuck to turn ferrule stations. Hand fitting them so far hasgone well though. My lathe has hard maple 2x6 for the rails, a 1 1/2" headstick shaft #2morsetaper bored out to 3/8. I had a machinist turn the spindle and the morsetaper, mounted the shaft on 1 1/2" flange bearings, bolted the whole thingdown to a 300# base and it is solid. 48" between centers which I needed forbuilding a rocking chair for my wife and our first child. Since then I'veturned everything from table tops (outboard) to reel seats and ferruleplugs. When we were moving every 3 or 4 years it was very amusing to watch themoving crew tackle it, then offer to take it apart for them. There is a plan somewhere on the rodbuilding web for making a turningapparatus from copper pipe fittings and pillow blocks. I think it was just Good luck KurtNixa, MO -----Original Message----- Subject: making a lathe I've been lathe surfing on the net, trying to find one for rod building.What i've been finding is either one with a small spindle bore (3/8") or one with the center to center distance that's too short (12" is too short in myopinion). However, there is the ideal lathe from sherline (model 4400) thatfits the bill but is out of budget (~ $700, WOW!). I'm just looking forsomething to turn my ferrule stations and the cork..... I've thought ofbuilding my own, any ideas? One of mine has been to take a zyliss lathe(comes with bed and tailstock, drill is mounted for motor) and adding ahead. Or start from scratch with a couple of pillow bearings and a shaft.But where would i get the parts like the spindle (with a bore), chuck, bedand tailstock. Any help would be great! Thanks, Mark from ttalsma@macatawa.org Fri Mar 1 21:54:53 2002 g223sp828401 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:54:51 -0600 Subject: Re: St David's day Got you beat Bob, Todd H. Talsma. That's it. Nope, just the initial.My parents didn't want to stick me with Harvey for a middle name, sothey just gave me an "H." Bob Maulucci wrote: Hi Brian:Same to you. I never knew who St. David was until you posted that. Ifoundsome info here. http://www.sucs.org/~rhys/stdavid.htmlMyself, I am a good Itralian St. Joe's celebrating boy.Best regards,Robert Rocky Maulucci (yep, that's really my name, but I win a lot of$because no one can ever guess what the middle R is for) -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 5:03 PM Subject: St David's day Happy St. David's day ,everyoneCheersBrian --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business home: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Rodmaking Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Rodmaking Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/index.htmgenealogy home page: Under Construction from Troutgetter@aol.com Fri Mar 1 22:03:13 2002 g2243C828781 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:03:12 -0600 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 23:03:00 -0500 Subject: review Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Mar 1 22:08:41 2002 g2248e829038 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:08:40 -0600 Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking No question about it, that is exactly what it's all about. Tony At 12:59 PM 3/1/02 -0600, Bob Nunley wrote: This morning I got an email that made me think a little bit about our craft. We do things because it is "tradition" and many times never bother to investigate WHY. We do things like use only silk thread, only Nickel Silver reel seats, only use particular types of finishes, only use certain style guides, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's "tradition" to use these things. This little story has a pretty good point to it. I thought it pretty much applied to all of us rodmonkeys... er, uh.. RodMakers. Enjoy it! Later,Bob Tradition Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with coldwater.After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try toprevent it.Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage andreplace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants toclimb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeysattack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he triesto climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. Theprevious newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then thefifth.Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked.Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were notpermitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in thebeating of the newest monkey.After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Becauseas far as they know that's just the way it's always been done. And that, my friends, is how TRADITION begins. /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from bob@downandacross.com Fri Mar 1 22:09:53 2002 g2249q829182 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:09:52 -0600 1 Mar 2002 23:09:46 -0500 Subject: RE: Wiring help, Thanks for the help Mike:Green is ground, use bolt in the "peckerhead" (the wiring box on the motor)to ground it. Then black to AB and White to CD. Motor ran great.Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Wiring help, Thanks for the help Ahh come on! What was the right answer!Mike Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from dr.matro@airmail.net Fri Mar 1 22:18:15 2002 g224IF829613 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:18:15 -0600 id 16h0xb-000CqH-00; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:17:27 -0600 ring.iadfw.net sender: Organization: KC Graphics Subject: Re: Casting Clinics All, I always keep the cane close at hand when teaching, normally in my hand.If the student just isn't feeling it, I cane 'em. Ken from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Mar 1 23:11:14 2002 g225BC801127 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 23:11:12 -0600 Subject: RE: Tradition in Rodmaking I think the problem here is that there is a certain amount of confusion in the market as to just what a bamboo rod is all about.I like to use them for trout because I like the action better than plastic and as we all know presentation is everything in trout fishingbut when I was salt fly fishing a bit all I used was graphite because it's better for that kind of use where all that matters is blasting the lure out and wrestling with the fish. Ultimatelty I stopped salt fly fishing too because catching tuna or wahoo on a 12 wt and non reversing reel is not really fly fishing IMHO so I went back to game gear.Living in Perth there is a lot of salt water flyfishing done and I've been asked to make rods to 12 wt. When ever I asked why a bamboo rod in 12 wt ship. I have nothing against these emotions but it says a lot about why people want a bamboo rod.I never made any of these rods because I think they'd have been disappointed in the rod compared with boron and graphite for the purpose. When it comes to the rods I've made for people living here in Australia where Hardy were the big name there seems to be a real desire for many people to have long rods and intermediates and ring guides rather thansnakes.I draw the line at this point and insist on snakes but it can be very hard to get around the intermediates.I know I could have sold more than twice the number of rods I have locally if I just went along with what they wanted but the whole thing seems so stupid to me I generally don't do it in the end if I detect a problem to save the inevitable hassle and I think this is mainly because these guys are after everything except casting qualities which means we have a serious case of monkey tag going on.Again, here in Australia the few dealers are dealing in old rods mainly and also assembled Partridge blanks with buggy whip actions and are selling on tradition. I know many makers have no problems with dealers and in fact prefer to use them but they are the ones setting the standard and pushing the plough we all must sow in if we want to sell a few rods. Tony At 04:05 PM 3/1/02 -0500, Goodmann, Tom wrote: A fair critique, this monkey business, on all counts; we humans often don't like to change, and aren't half-aware of why we do things the way we do. Every new idea is worthy of consideration, and so is every old one, so every accepted practice in making split cane rods may be examined. The members of this list seem as innovative as you are traditional-but few will support change for the sake of change, all the same. There are values-aesthetic, cultural-worth defending on other than practical grounds. A. K. Best doesn't tie flies with natural materials for practical reasons or, at least, not only for practical reasons; numerous innovations have emerged from using synthetic materials that are both cheaper and more widely available than the traditional materials. But to go that route would mean missing the fun of collecting road kill. After all-to slide right down the slippery slope of questioning methods and traditions-we know that most folks who fish don't fly fish, and of those who do, most of them use graphite rods. There's little practical value in making and fishing rods from the lovely reed. I preach to the choir of course in saying that we hold with split cane and Pearsalls' and Perfects (substitute as you like) because we like the properties of bamboo as a material, and the aesthetics too. (Okay; maybe it is worth noting that we have little or no problem using an innovative reel on a classically made rod). On the technical process side, I'm sure, questions ought to be raised, and they will be: milling versus hand planing, Bob Milward's heterodox analyses, etc. But there's a limit to our questions, isn't there? That is, we're committed to the material, and to much else. Among the many reasons not to cast plastic is that one of the values in the lively tradition of cane rodmaking lies not only what you can do with bamboo but also, I'd say, in what making does for the maker: what bamboo does to you. But I ain't arguing with Bob, either. --Tom /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Mar 1 23:11:15 2002 g225BD801149 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 23:11:13 -0600 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Tradition in Rodmaking I blame dealers for the most part not wanting to offer anything different to punters and where the makers are not using dealers they have to offer what the punter thinks he wants because that's what a bamboo rod should be of course. Tony At 12:15 PM 3/1/02 -0700, Jason Swan wrote: Reminds me of the urban legend about the new bride who cut the end offher ham roasts before cooking the thing. Having never seen ham prepared this way, the new husband asked why she did that. She said because that is how one cooks a ham, silly. Well, the husband asked the mother and got the same response. When he asked the girls grandmother, though, he foundout that she only had short pans and usually needed to do that so that the ham would fit. So, the real rodmakers question I want to ask is this, what are the sacrosanct traditions? I know rodmakers who use polyurethane finishes. I have seen many aluminum reel seats. Are the traditions cosmetic, generally? Or are there some procedural traditions that may besuperfluous? Jason On 3/1/02 11:59 AM, "Bob Nunley" wrote:This morning I got an email that made me think a little bit about our craft. We do things because it is "tradition" and many times never bother to investigate WHY. We do things like use only silk thread, only Nickel Silver reel seats, only use particular types of finishes, only use certain style guides, etc., etc., etc., mostly because it's "tradition" to use these things. This little story has a pretty good point to it. I thought it pretty much applied to all of us rodmonkeys... er, uh.. RodMakers. Enjoy it!Later,BobTraditionStart with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang abanana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, amonkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. Assoon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with coldwater.After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result- all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, whenanother monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try toprevent it.Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage andreplace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants toclimb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeysattack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he triesto climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace itwith a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. Theprevious newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm!Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then thefifth.Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked.Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were notpermitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in thebeating of the newest monkey.After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remainingmonkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkeyever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Becauseas far as they know that's just the way it's always been done. And that, my friends, is how TRADITION begins. /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Mar 1 23:11:17 2002 g225BF801157 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 23:11:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Source for waxes and Cascamite I use Cascamite powder for almost all gluing purposes around the house and a lot of uses on my boat too. My Ash oars are glued with it and are going strong and my boat tender is a glued lap construction dingy glued together only with Cascomite and no nails or screws at all. I've towed this at least 1,000 miles and it lives under a tree on the bank of the river opposite my boat and has survived all weather and kids (so far, the local kids will be it's end I'm sure. I'm surprised it hasn't been used as a bar b que).It's good stuff. I have to try a rod with it some time during the Winter. The only problem with it is it's hard to increase the pot life on warmer day though sitting the pot in another with ice cubes would work. Make sure to lid is very tightly shut or it'll harden in the container. I've had this happen and just broken the lumps that formed up and used it in the normal way but it must have reduced qualities if this happens.Cascomite is mixed with only water and used right away. It used to be called cold water glue.I once spoke to the boat builder who built my boat in 1958. He told me the scarfs of the planks on my boat were glued with Cascomite and riveted. None of the leading edges of the scarfs are showing signs of failure so it can't be too bad. The glue I've been using and like a lot is a liquid UF with a liquid hardener. This is very good too and as there is a hardener it's easy to extent the pot life by adjusting the amount of hardener used.You are right though, the Cascomite does have a longer shelf life, I went to use some UF a week back and it's hardened in the bottle. Tony At 05:46 PM 3/1/02 -0500, Reed Curry wrote: I noticed Rydenor -- http://www.rydenor.co.uk/ -- as a source for some interesting waxes and Cascamite (not Vegemite), a urea formaldehyde glue in powder form. Since the powder has a longer shelf life, this might be a cheap alternative to other UFs.--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from aport@si.rr.com Sat Mar 2 06:31:06 2002 g22CV5809259 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 06:31:05 -0600 Sat, 2 Mar 2002 07:30:55 -0500 Subject: Re: making a lathe Hi Mark,I don't know if you're as loony as some of us on this list, but thebooks this guy writes are aimed at nuts like us! I haven't atempted any ofhis projects, but a friend who was knowledgeable in metalworking fullyintended to build his foundry and some others of the tools that come from itbefore he died unexpectedly and way too young. Even if you're not going touse his plans, I'll bet they give you some great ideas to fold into your ownwork. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/series/index.html Lindsay Books, the name at the bottom of the page, has a bunch of greattitles and probably could cobble together something on cane if they knew howmany of us out here would buy the damn thing!! Don't be put off by theirlead title, which is something like "How To Perform Your Own Pre- frontalLobotomy", they have some great stuff. Lots of it is reprints of manuals from the 1900s to '20s before everything came in a crate with instructionson how to throw it away included *G*. Just the sort of stuff we'dappreciate.As usual, ain't got NO interest in the company, etc, etc,...Art Ps: Just be careful you don't get into another, equally time-consuming hobbyalong the way! from petermckean@netspace.net.au Sat Mar 2 06:48:35 2002 g22CmX809603 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 06:48:33 -0600 g22CmQT35702; Subject: Re: tapers Kyle Not an expert on the subject (not that that has ever been known to deteranybody from giving plenty of opinions), but I agree with your choice of theDickerson, and would add the Payne 101 as an alternative; the Payne is myall-time favourite, and it is a pattern that, while pretty fast to beginwith does lend itself to tweaking here and there to speed it even more. Ihave made the Dickerson as well, and am going to build another. The 8015 isalso pretty quick, but a bit big for my taste. In the medium class, I would put forward the name of the Sir D. It is adelight to cast, and is certainly a good medium rod. I was amazed recentlywhen I sent a Sir D to a bloke in Melbourne who was keen to try a bamboorod with a view to buying one - I sent him the Sir D with some misgiving asthis bloke is a graphite man, and when he tells you what graphites he likesit sounds like a litany of stiff! I sent it to him for the simple reasonthat it was the only rod I had at the time that I wasn't seeing an immediateneed for, and warned him that he might find it a little relaxed for hisstyle; imagine my surprise when he got back in touch to say that he felt itwas quite a quick rod, much quicker than he had been expecting, and that hejust loved it. I may have a little trouble getting it back. Figure that one out if you can. Perhaps the rods he has been fishing are theones dictated by fashion and by the Accepted International Rules for PissingCompetitions, and maybe they are all just too damn fast for his castingstyle; maybe this is the first rod that he has ever fished with thatspecifically suits his natural rhythm. I really cannot explain it. I am areally crappy caster, and certainly not in any position to analyse castinglikes and dislikes. But that Sir D is a very, very different proposition from any rod that this bloke has ever fished with, and he just loves it. Also in the medium category I would put the 6'3" 3-weight of wayneCattanach's. I am really glad that humans have 2 hands, as that means thatwhen finally they have to prise open my cold dead fingers to remove thebamboo rods, there will be room for this rod as well as for the Payne! I wouldn't like to split the 2 PHY's, personally; they are bothprogressive- actioned rods, and I wouldn't call either of them slow. If youwant slow, go try an English rod from the 1950's - back cast, read a book,forward cast, read a book; it's why so many English fishermen from that eraappear so well educated - they had all this time to fill in while they weretrying to cast with their Hardy's. Also the Pezon & Michel Parabolics. I must say they are a bit beyond mycapabilities, so they don't interest me much. Actually, for a lucidexplanation of this phenomenon, read Nunley's Theory of Simian Aversion; Ihave been bucketed so comprehensively by rods of this type that I'mdiscouraged for good. There, I told you that lack of knowledge never gets in the way of opinions,didn't I? Cheers Peter from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Sat Mar 2 07:31:38 2002 g22DVb810200 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 07:31:37 -0600 g22DVXdd018691 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:31:34 -0500 Subject: Re: making a lathe Mark, If you're only interested in turning ferrule stations and cork, why not look at a wood lathe? They give you a much bigger swing and bed length, much cheaper than a metal lathe. Mark At 06:06 PM 3/1/02 -0500, you wrote: I've been lathe surfing on the net, trying to find one for rod building.Whati've been finding is either one with a small spindle bore (3/8") or one withthe center to center distance that's too short (12" is too short in myopinion). However, there is the ideal lathe from sherline (model 4400) thatfits the bill but is out of budget (~ $700, WOW!). I'm just looking forsomething to turn my ferrule stations and the cork..... I've thought ofbuilding my own, any ideas? One of mine has been to take a zyliss lathe(comes with bed and tailstock, drill is mounted for motor) and adding ahead. Or start from scratch with a couple of pillow bearings and a shaft.But where would i get the parts like the spindle (with a bore), chuck, bedand tailstock. Any help would be great! Thanks, Mark from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Sat Mar 2 07:36:01 2002 g22Da0810409 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 07:36:00 -0600 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:35:55 -0500 Subject: Test: delete Test: Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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 from dpvbkjs@somtel.com Sat Mar 2 08:20:13 2002 g22EKC811945 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:20:12 -0600 Subject: Re: Casting Clinics I haven't actually used cane for the casting part of my 15 week middleschool fly fishing activity, but I'll have to this year. Two weeks ago, when the head of the local TU was showing my dozen kids thevarious types of fly rods out there, he'd pull each rod out of the bag andlay it on the library table in front of them... something like : an oldstyle fiberglass, followed by an early Sage, a nice Loomis, then abeautiful Winston, each with a matching reel (single action, then largearbor, etc). BUT, when he pulled out the bamboo rod and laid it with theothers, there was a collective gasp (honest to goodness) and thenuninhibited 7th and 8th grade oooos and ahhhs. Of course, the first student to recover turned to me and asked if they weregoing to get to try that kind of rod, too [:-)] Kat from Dennishigham@cs.com Sat Mar 2 09:09:22 2002 g22F9L812936 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:09:21 -0600 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:09:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Polishing Gary,I polish w/ micromesh but I start w/ 6000 and wet sand w/ water to 12000then go to Meguires plastic cleaner (#17) and finally Meguires plastic polish (#10)..Perfect-it works well too. Leaves me with a nice soft gloss finish. If I have a drip I start w/ 4000 micromesh. Don't get too agressive with the 3600-6000 grit or you'll polish right down to bamboo! Ask me how I know :-} Dennis from Dennishigham@cs.com Sat Mar 2 09:09:23 2002 g22F9M812940 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:09:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Grand Experiment Hank,Grayling starts Thur night the 20th thru Sun morn the 23rd. It's always the third weekend in June/ weekend after Father's day. Un-officially it starts whenever the first participant arrives usually sometime over Father's day weekend. Dennis from jojo@ipa.net Sat Mar 2 09:16:22 2002 g22FGL813922 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:16:21 -0600 helo=default) id 16hBFD-0001HJ-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 10:16:20 -0500 Subject: Re: making a lathe Don't forget Dave Gingery's books, available from Lindsay's. I think the manhas made every tool possible, even resorting to casting his own cast-iron.Lindsay's has more cool books than you could ever read and absorb. M-D Hi Mark,I don't know if you're as loony as some of us on this list, but thebooks this guy writes are aimed at nuts like us! I haven't atempted any ofhis projects, but a friend who was knowledgeable in metalworking fullyintended to build his foundry and some others of the tools that come from it before he died unexpectedly and way too young. Even if you're not going touse his plans, I'll bet they give you some great ideas to fold into your own work. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/series/index.html Lindsay Books, the name at the bottom of the page, has a bunch of great titles and probably could cobble together something on cane if they knew how many of us out here would buy the damn thing!! Don't be put off by theirlead title, which is something like "How To Perform Your Own Pre- frontalLobotomy", they have some great stuff. Lots of it is reprints of manuals from the 1900s to '20s before everything came in a crate withinstructionson how to throw it away included *G*. Just the sort of stuff we'dappreciate.As usual, ain't got NO interest in the company, etc, etc,...Art Ps: Just be careful you don't get into another, equally time-consuming hobby along the way! from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat Mar 2 09:25:16 2002 g22FPF814247 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:25:15 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: More on Cascamite I used powdered urea formaldehyde resin in Canada years ago for veneering panels with excellent results. At that time you could buy it in the local hardware store, though I don't recall the brand name. The only source I can find in the U.S. is the illustrious Custom-Pak (see http://www.custompak.com/Adhesives/Powdered%20Plastic%20Resin.htm ).John Zimny, what do you think of this adhesive?-- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ >Fromavyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Mar 2 09:53:07 2002 Received: from g22Fr1814726 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 2002 15:52:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tony.iinet.net.au) 0000 Message-Id:X-Sender:avyoung@mail.iinet.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 , From: Tony Young References: avyoung@iinet.net.au Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ihave a lot of the Gingery books and I can recommend them highly. They getright to the point and there isn't a spare word used. I've read the book onmaking a lathe as well as vertical and horizontal mills and provided you don'tmind putting in the time they look really good. Be warned though the Gingerysare fans of casting rather than fabrication so if you don't want to go downthat road the books on machinery may not be of much vale to you. I do castiron and bronze etc from time to time and while it's not rocket science it's anew skill you'll need to learn as well as tool up for. I think by the time you toolup and actually make the lathe it's probably not worth the savings UNLESSyou want to learn a new black art so you can make use of this knowledgelater. Should you decide to do this get their book on metal casting as well.Personally I think you can never know too many black arts but that's just me.The various Hasluck titles are also good reading. Tony At 07:28 AM 3/2/02 -0500, arthur port wrote: Hi Mark,I don't know if you're as loony as some of us on this list, but thebooks this guy writes are aimed at nuts like us! I haven't atempted any ofhis projects, but a friend who was knowledgeable in metalworking fullyintended to build his foundry and some others of the tools that come fromitbefore he died unexpectedly and way too young. Even if you're not going touse his plans, I'll bet they give you some great ideas to fold into your ownwork. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/series/index.html Lindsay Books, the name at the bottom of the page, has a bunch of greattitles and probably could cobble together something on cane if they knewhowmany of us out here would buy the damn thing!! Don't be put off by theirlead title, which is something like "How To Perform Your Own Pre- frontalLobotomy", they have some great stuff. Lots of it is reprints of manuals from the 1900s to '20s before everything came in a crate with instructions on how to throw it away included *G*. Just the sort of stuff we'dappreciate.As usual, ain't got NO interest in the company, etc, etc,...Art Ps: Just be careful you don't get into another, equally time- consuminghobbyalong the way! /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Sat Mar 2 10:00:29 2002 g22G0S815012 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:00:28 -0600 by direct-pest.com [208.27.26.103] for ; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:00:26 -0500 Subject: Re: More on Cascamite You can pick up the same type of powdered Urea Formaldehyde at your localHome Depot/Lowe's store here stateside. Its called DAP Weldwood PlasticResin Glue. Comes in two colors. I use the tan because it blends with thenatural color of a blond rod. I have glued up 3 rods with this and have hadgood results. Pot life at 70 degrees is 4 hours, and it cleans up withwater. I must give credit for my discovery of this glue to Jerry Wall of JWFlyrods. He is the one that recommended it to me, and because I live in thefreaking boonies, he had to even send me some. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker----- Original Message ----- Subject: More on Cascamite I used powdered urea formaldehyde resin in Canada years ago forveneering panels with excellent results. At that time you could buy itin the local hardware store, though I don't recall the brand name. Theonly source I can find in the U.S. is the illustrious Custom-Pak (seehttp://www.custompak.com/Adhesives/Powdered%20Plastic%20Resin.htm).John Zimny, what do you think of this adhesive?--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Mar 2 10:10:28 2002 g22GAQ815358 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:10:27 -0600 "rod" Subject: Re: More on Cascamite There is also a UF glue that is just like this but also has a small amount of melamine so it's a three part jobbie in that it's a resin, hardener and melamine.This makes an unbelievably strong bond even when gluing very thick laminates which you shouldn't really do. It's probably not as strong as resorcinol but it's not as fussy as resorcinol when it comes to gap filling and working temperature range. Tony At 10:58 AM 3/2/02 -0500, Bamboo Joe wrote: You can pick up the same type of powdered Urea Formaldehyde at your localHome Depot/Lowe's store here stateside. Its called DAP Weldwood PlasticResin Glue. Comes in two colors. I use the tan because it blends with thenatural color of a blond rod. I have glued up 3 rods with this and have hadgood results. Pot life at 70 degrees is 4 hours, and it cleans up withwater. I must give credit for my discovery of this glue to Jerry Wall of JWFlyrods. He is the one that recommended it to me, and because I live in thefreaking boonies, he had to even send me some. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker----- Original Message -----From: "Reed Curry" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 10:29 AMSubject: More on Cascamite I used powdered urea formaldehyde resin in Canada years ago forveneering panels with excellent results. At that time you could buy itin the local hardware store, though I don't recall the brand name. Theonly source I can find in the U.S. is the illustrious Custom-Pak (see http://www.custompak.com/Adhesives/Powdered%20Plastic%20Resin.htm ).John Zimny, what do you think of this adhesive?--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from flytyr@southshore.com Sat Mar 2 10:46:04 2002 g22Gk3816128 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:46:03 -0600 g22Gk2E32317 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:46:02 -0600 Subject: Re: More on Cascamite I have used in aircraft building and repairs in the days of wood wing spars.Used to buy it in Hardware stores. Never thought about using it for rods. Willgive it a go if I can find it here in the Arkansas boonies.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Bamboo Joe wrote: You can pick up the same type of powdered Urea Formaldehyde at yourlocalHome Depot/Lowe's store here stateside. Its called DAP Weldwood PlasticResin Glue. Comes in two colors. I use the tan because it blends with thenatural color of a blond rod. I have glued up 3 rods with this and have hadgood results. Pot life at 70 degrees is 4 hours, and it cleans up withwater. I must give credit for my discovery of this glue to Jerry Wall of JWFlyrods. He is the one that recommended it to me, and because I live in thefreaking boonies, he had to even send me some. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker----- Original Message -----From: "Reed Curry" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 10:29 AMSubject: More on Cascamite I used powdered urea formaldehyde resin in Canada years ago forveneering panels with excellent results. At that time you could buy itin the local hardware store, though I don't recall the brand name. Theonly source I can find in the U.S. is the illustrious Custom-Pak (see http://www.custompak.com/Adhesives/Powdered%20Plastic%20Resin.htm ).John Zimny, what do you think of this adhesive?--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Mar 2 10:58:37 2002 g22Gwb816619 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:58:37 -0600 Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:00:12 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: making a lathe Mark,if ferrule stations and cork is all you want to do, check out myfranken lathe on www.eboard.shawnsbamboopage.comit is a very simple, inexpensive tool that you can make in an afternoon and itworks!Chucks for wood lathes are impractical as by the time you buy a woodlathe and 3 jaw chuck, you might as well just buy a metal lathe,Shawn Mark & Kathy Pohl wrote: I've been lathe surfing on the net, trying to find one for rod building.Whati've been finding is either one with a small spindle bore (3/8") or one withthe center to center distance that's too short (12" is too short in myopinion). However, there is the ideal lathe from sherline (model 4400) thatfits the bill but is out of budget (~ $700, WOW!). I'm just looking forsomething to turn my ferrule stations and the cork..... I've thought ofbuilding my own, any ideas? One of mine has been to take a zyliss lathe(comes with bed and tailstock, drill is mounted for motor) and adding ahead. Or start from scratch with a couple of pillow bearings and a shaft.But where would i get the parts like the spindle (with a bore), chuck, bedand tailstock. Any help would be great! Thanks, Mark from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Sat Mar 2 11:08:47 2002 g22H8k817183 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:08:46 -0600 Subject: ebay Has the ebay server crashed out ?..........Paul from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Sat Mar 2 12:11:57 2002 g22IBu818352 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:11:57 -0600 Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:11:51 -0800 Sat, 02 Mar 2002 18:11:46 GMT Subject: Tradition FILETIME=[BA1DC720:01C1C215] And now, the rest of the story. snowshoes, and a closet full of bamboo flyrods. Why, not because I wasthreatened with a whippin from others for not falling in line, but because Ilike wearing something that my grandpa wore. Makes me feel good fishing traditional to improve upon. I'm not talking about my micro wave oven, long g!one, sold at a garage sale or replaced by another new latest and greatestitem. Many of my traditional belongings are still with me. Still got those wing my bamboo rods will always have two footed snake guides, silk thread andcork handle. If you want to use ceramic guides, a foam handle and the latestvibration dampening wrap under the handle, good for you. I'm sure it will lookgreat in your PVC rod tube. I'm no lemming and not a purist either and yet Ifind myself liking my traditionl belongings more and more. what changes have taken place. New adhesive's, every building techniqueunder the sun being tried, including such things like, new tapers, differingheat treating methods, bevellers, taper mills, node presses and everything isanalized and re analized. No wonder the best rods ever made are being madetoday. I think we've got the best of both worlds, but single foot guides, not from beadman@mac.com Sat Mar 2 12:22:27 2002 g22IMQ818789 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:22:26 -0600 2002)) Subject: Re: Grand Experiment At 10:08 AM -0500 , 3/2/02, Dennishigham@cs.com wrote about Re: Grand Experiment Hank, Thanks, all, for the info about comparing measurements. Claude from rmoon@ida.net Sat Mar 2 12:26:19 2002 g22IQI819044 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:26:18 -0600 Subject: Re: Tradition --------------2F12883FC01B1AF0F9B5104E Amen JimRalph Jim Bureau wrote: And now, the rest of the story. I'm a traditionalist of sorts, havea pair of winged tip shoes, a old wool hunting mackinac coat, doublebarrel shotgun, rawhide snowshoes, and a closet full of bambooflyrods. Why, not because I was threatened with a whippin from others grandpa wore. Makes me feel good fishing with cane like Garrison did.I'm 55 years old and spent a small fortune on the latest and greatestitem of whatever came down the pike and in many cases, have little toshow for it. I've bought and sold five perfectly good automaticshotguns and yet I still own my traditional double guns, no need toget a new one of them, they're just to traditional to improve upon.I'm not talking about my micro wave oven, my color TV, or my Simm'sWaders. You'd have to fight me for the waders. Much of my nontraditional stuff is long g! one, sold at a garage sale or replaced byanother new latest and greatest item. Many of my traditionalbelongings are still with me. Still got those wing tips and theplatform shoes are long gone. Many traditional items have stood thetest of time and people have come to respect them for that veryreason, myself included. Sorry to disagree with you guys but my bamboorods will always have two footed snake guides, silk thread and corkhandle. If you want to use ceramic guides, a foam handle and thelatest vibration dampening wrap under the handle, good for you. I'msure it will look great in your PVC rod tube. I'm no lemming and not apurist either and yet I find myself liking my traditionl belongingsmore and more. As to the construction of modern bamboo rods, it'samazing what changes have taken place. New adhesive's, every buildingtechnique under the sun being tried, including such things like, newtapers, differing heat treating methods, bevellers, taper mills, nodepresses and everything is analized and re analized. No wonder the bestrods ever made are being made today. I think we've got the best ofboth worlds, but single foot guides, not on any bamboo rod I'll everbuild. Jim -----------------------------------------------------------------------Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here --------------2F12883FC01B1AF0F9B5104E Amen JimRalphJim Bureau wrote: I'm a traditionalist of sorts, have a pair of winged tip shoes, a old woolhunting mackinac coat, double barrel shotgun, rawhide snowshoes, and acloset full of bamboo flyrods. Why, not because I was threatened with awhippin from others for not falling in line, but because I like wearingsomething that my grandpa wore. Makes me feel good fishing with cane likeGarrison did. I'm 55 years old and spent a small fortune on the latest have little to show for it. I've bought and sold five perfectly good automaticshotguns and yet I still own my traditional double guns, no need to geta new one of them, they're just to traditional to improve upon. I'm not Waders. stuff is long g! one, sold at a garage sale or replaced by another newlatest and greatest item. Many of my traditional belongings are still withme. Still got those wing tips and the platform shoes are long gone. Many to respect them for that very reason, myself included. Sorry to disagreewith you guys but my bamboo rods will always have two footed snake guides,silk thread and cork handle. If you want to use ceramic guides, a foamhandle and the latest vibration dampening wrap under the handle, good foryou. I'm sure it will look great in your PVC rod tube. I'm no lemming andnot a purist either and yet I find myself liking my traditionl belongings amazing what changes have taken place. New adhesive's, every buildingtechniqueunder the sun being tried, including such things like, new tapers, differingheat treating methods, bevellers, taper mills, node presses and everythingis analized and re analized. No wonder the best rods ever made are beingmade today. I think we've got the best of both worlds, but single foot Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: ClickHere --------------2F12883FC01B1AF0F9B5104E-- from Lazybee45@aol.com Sat Mar 2 12:44:58 2002 g22Iiw819575 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:44:58 -0600 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:44:45 -0500 Subject: Re: making a lathe In a message dated 3/2/02 7:32:21 AM Central Standard Time, wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil writes: Yuh! At the local "Re-tool" store (a reconditioned and second hand tool store) A decent Wood lathe is available WITH turning tools for less than $200. IF I remember correctly. the other mark visit Wood Art Custom Designs http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html Hand crafted items made to order! from bennetts@cybermesa.com Sat Mar 2 13:00:54 2002 g22J0r820020 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:00:53 -0600 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:08:22 -0700 Subject: Gatherings Would some of you care to comment about the various bamboo gatherings =around the country (or the world for that matter)? I would love to =attend one or more this year but I don't have any info as to size, =dates, locations, etc. Usually by the time I hear about some event, it =is too late for me to make plans to attend because my wife has already = Thanks! Scott List, Would some of you care to commentabout = I would love to attend one or more this year but I don't have any info = it is too late for me to make plans to attend because my wife has = Scott from rmoon@ida.net Sat Mar 2 13:21:37 2002 g22JLa820584 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:21:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Gatherings --------------43A8A6D26296807BC29D010F The FFF Bamboo Rod Symposium is in August. See the urlwww.ida.net/users/rmoonRalph"C. Scott Bennett" wrote: List, Would some of you care to comment about the various bamboogatherings around the country (or the world for that matter)? I wouldlove to attend one or more this year but I don't have any info as tosize, dates, locations, etc. Usually by the time I hear about someevent, it is too late for me to make plans to attend because my wifehas already made plans for me. That's why I love her... Thanks!Scott --------------43A8A6D26296807BC29D010F www.ida.net/users/rmoonRalph"C. Scott Bennett" wrote: some of you care to comment about the various bamboo gatherings around one or more this year but I don't have any info as to size, dates, locations, Scott --------------43A8A6D26296807BC29D010F-- from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Sat Mar 2 13:34:05 2002 g22JY4821254 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:34:05 -0600 Sat, 2 Mar 2002 15:35:45 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: making a lathe OOOPS sorry all, its been a while. The link should bewww.shawnsbamboopage.eboard.comShawn Shawn Pineo wrote: Mark,if ferrule stations and cork is all you want to do, check out myfranken lathe on www.eboard.shawnsbamboopage.comit is a very simple, inexpensive tool that you can make in an afternoon anditworks!Chucks for wood lathes are impractical as by the time you buy a woodlathe and 3 jaw chuck, you might as well just buy a metal lathe,Shawn Mark & Kathy Pohl wrote: I've been lathe surfing on the net, trying to find one for rod building.Whati've been finding is either one with a small spindle bore (3/8") or one withthe center to center distance that's too short (12" is too short in myopinion). However, there is the ideal lathe from sherline (model 4400)thatfits the bill but is out of budget (~ $700, WOW!). I'm just looking forsomething to turn my ferrule stations and the cork..... I've thought ofbuilding my own, any ideas? One of mine has been to take a zyliss lathe(comes with bed and tailstock, drill is mounted for motor) and adding ahead. Or start from scratch with a couple of pillow bearings and a shaft.But where would i get the parts like the spindle (with a bore), chuck, bedand tailstock. Any help would be great! Thanks, Mark from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sat Mar 2 13:38:23 2002 g22JcN821524 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:38:23 -0600 Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:38:17 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:messageSubject: RE: More on Cascamite Thread-Topic: More on CascamiteThread-Index: AcHCA3qI2DdgdC3sEda4KABglOouXwAHnd9w "rod" FILETIME=[CD3DC010:01C1C221] g22JcN821527 Could you tell me what kind of heat is needed to straighten sections (notthat mine every need it....), say compared to PU or other known glues? Also,is it as toxic as URAC 185 and the similar liquid glues used by manyrodmakers? Thanks.... Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: More on Cascamite You can pick up the same type of powdered Urea Formaldehyde at your localHome Depot/Lowe's store here stateside. Its called DAP Weldwood PlasticResin Glue. Comes in two colors. I use the tan because it blends with thenatural color of a blond rod. I have glued up 3 rods with this and have hadgood results. Pot life at 70 degrees is 4 hours, and it cleans up withwater. I must give credit for my discovery of this glue to Jerry Wall of JWFlyrods. He is the one that recommended it to me, and because I live in thefreaking boonies, he had to even send me some. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker----- Original Message ----- Subject: More on Cascamite I used powdered urea formaldehyde resin in Canada years ago forveneering panels with excellent results. At that time you could buy itin the local hardware store, though I don't recall the brand name. Theonly source I can find in the U.S. is the illustrious Custom-Pak (seehttp://www.custompak.com/Adhesives/Powdered%20Plastic%20Resin.htm).John Zimny, what do you think of this adhesive?--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from jojo@ipa.net Sat Mar 2 14:12:17 2002 g22KCG822176 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:12:16 -0600 helo=default) id 16hFrW-0005pg-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:12:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Tradition Same here. There is much of tradition that appeals to me. Not just =because it is tradition, per se, but because it has stood the test of =time, has proven itself, and despite the latest and greatest having come =onto the world scene, it's still perfectly adequate and possibly even =better at doing it's job. I quite readily take and use the best of all =things, and discard the rest -- the worldly equivalent of Jeet Kune Do.Archery is another good example of something that has at its roots a =basic premise that has been expanded into mindbogglingness. I learned to =shoot on a selfbow, then moved into a fiberglass reinforced recurve. =Shooting was as easy as it gets. Then along comes the compound, and I =bought a Bear Whitetail Hunter, just to be sure that this was what I =wanted, then quickly ended up buying a Bear Alaskan, which at that time =was the top of the line. Lo and behold, only scant years later comes =along the cambow, an eccentric shape to the normally round wheels of the =compound. Speed and letoff were dramatically enhanced, not to mention =that the overdraw came into being, allowing one to shoot shorter and =lighter arrows at amazing speeds (for an arrow). Wow, we're really into =the technology end of things now. So, after a few years of that I sold =it all, and went back to my stickbow. I can more consistently shoot =accurately, even at moving targets, by only looking at the spot I want =the arrow to penetrate -- instinct shooting at its best. They took the =simplest thing in the world, flinging an arrow from a taut string and =wood, and complicated it no end with all manner of gadgets, sighting =devices, and mechanical "advantages". Now anyone can be an "archer". =Egad. M-D I'm a traditionalist of sorts, have a pair of winged tip shoes, a =old wool hunting mackinac coat, double barrel shotgun, rawhide =snowshoes, and a closet full of bamboo flyrods. Why, not because I was =threatened with a whippin from others for not falling in line, but =because I like wearing something that my grandpa wore. Makes me feel =good fishing with cane like Garrison did. I'm 55 years old and spent a =small fortune on the latest and greatest item of whatever came down the =pike and in many cases, have little to show for it. I've bought and =sold five perfectly good automatic shotguns and yet I still own my =traditional double guns, no need to get a new one of them, they're just =to traditional to improve upon. I'm not talking about my micro wave =oven, my color TV, or my Simm's Waders. You'd have to fight me for the =waders. Much of my non traditional stuff is long g! one, sold at a =garage sale or replaced by another new latest and greatest item. Many of =my traditional belongings are still with me. Still got those wing tips =and the platform shoes are long gone. Many traditional items have stood =the test of time and people have come to respect them for that very =reason, myself included. Sorry to disagree with you guys but my bamboo =rods will always have two footed snake guides, silk thread and cork =handle. If you want to use ceramic guides, a foam handle and the latest =vibration dampening wrap under the handle, good for you. I'm sure it =will look great in your PVC rod tube. I'm no lemming and not a purist =either and yet I find myself liking my traditionl belongings more and = As to the construction of modern bamboo rods, it's amazing what =changes have taken place. New adhesive's, every building technique under =the sun being tried, including such things like, new tapers, differing =heat treating methods, bevellers, taper mills, node presses and =everything is analized and re analized. No wonder the best rods ever =made are being made today. I think we've got the best of both worlds, =but single foot guides, not on any bamboo rod I'll ever build. Jim Same here. There ismuch = that appeals to me. Not just because it is tradition, per se, but = stood the test of time, has proven itself, and despite the latest and = having come onto the world scene, it's still perfectly adequate and = of all things, and discard the rest -- the worldly equivalent of Jeet = Do.Archery is anothergood = mindbogglingness. I learned to shoot on a selfbow, then moved into a = compound, and I bought a Bear Whitetail Hunter, just to be sure that = time was the top of the line. Lo and behold, only scant years later = lighter arrows at amazing speeds (for an arrow). Wow, we're really into = the arrow to penetrate -- instinct shooting at its best. They took the = Egad. M-D Bureau And now, the rest of the story. snowshoes, and a closet full of bamboo flyrods. Why, not because I was = threatened with a whippin from others for not falling in line, but = like wearing something that my grandpa wore. Makes me feel good = them, they're just to traditional to improve upon. I'm not talking = another new latest and greatest item. Many of my traditional = still with me. Still got those wing tips and the platform shoes are = Sorry to disagree with you guys but my bamboo rods will always have = snake guides, silk thread and cork handle. If you want to use ceramic = a foam handle and the latest vibration dampening wrap under the = not a purist either and yet I find myself liking my traditionl = and more. changes have taken place. New adhesive's, every building technique = sun being tried, including such things like, new tapers, differing = treating methods, bevellers, taper mills, node presses and everything = analized and re analized. No wonder the best rods ever made are being = today. I think we've got the best of both worlds, but single foot = = Jim = from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sat Mar 2 17:22:50 2002 g22NMn824633 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:22:50 -0600 Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:22:44 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:messageSubject: RE: Tradition Thread-Topic: TraditionThread-Index: AcHCFfC1TG3bOi4GEda4KABglOouXwAKffWQ FILETIME=[28271FC0:01C1C241] Jim -- When you say, if you like it then do it and good for you, I agree. Butthen you just can't resist adding "I'm sure it will look great in yourPVC rod tube." Kind of like saying, If you like that couch, good foryou, I'm sure it will look good in your double-wide with the velvetElvis paintings. If this is tolerance I'd hate to see snobbery. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Tradition I'm a traditionalist of sorts, have a pair of winged tip shoes, a oldwool hunting mackinac coat, double barrel shotgun, rawhide snowshoes,and a closet full of bamboo flyrods. Why, not because I was threatenedwith a whippin from others for not falling in line, but because I likewearing something that my grandpa wore. Makes me feel good fishing withcane like Garrison did. I'm 55 years old and spent a small fortune onthe latest and greatest item of whatever came down the pike and in manycases, have little to show for it. I've bought and sold five perfectlygood automatic shotguns and yet I still own my traditional double guns,no need to get a new one of them, they're just to traditional to improveupon. I'm not talking about my micro wave oven, my color TV, or mySimm's Waders. You'd have to fight me for the waders. Much of my nontraditional stuff is long g! one, sold at a garage sale or replaced byanother new latest and greatest item. Many of my traditional belongingsare still with me. Still got those wing tips and the platform shoes arelong gone. Many traditional items have stood the test of time and peoplehave come to respect them for that very reason, myself included. Sorryto disagree with you guys but my bamboo rods will always have two footedsnake guides, silk thread and cork handle. If you want to use ceramicguides, a foam handle and the latest vibration dampening wrap under thehandle, good for you. I'm sure it will look great in your PVC rod tube.I'm no lemming and not a purist either and yet I find myself liking my As to the construction of modern bamboo rods, it's amazing whatchanges have taken place. New adhesive's, every building technique underthe sun being tried, including such things like, new tapers, differingheat treating methods, bevellers, taper mills, node presses andeverything is analized and re analized. No wonder the best rods evermade are being made today. I think we've got the best of both worlds,but single foot guides, not on any bamboo rod I'll ever build. Jim Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: ClickHere v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} 0DocumentEmail Ji=m -- Wh=en yousay, if you like it then do it and good for you, I agree. But then you =justcan’t resist adding “I'm you,I’m sure it will look good in your double-wide with the velvet =Elvis paintings.If this is tolerance I’d hate to see snobbery.= Barry -----OriginalMessage-----From: Jim Bureau Sent: Saturday, March02, =200212:12 PM RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.eduSubject: =Tradition And now, therest of the story. traditionalist of sorts, have a pair of winged tip shoes, a old wool =hunting =closetfull of bamboo flyrods. Why, not because I was threatened with a whippin =fromothers for not falling in line, but because I like wearing something =that mygrandpa wore. Makes me feel good fishing with cane like Garrison did. =I'm 55 five just totraditional to improve upon. I'm not talking about my micro wave oven, = waders. agarage sale or replaced by another new latest and greatest item. Many of =mytraditional belongings are still with me. Still got those wing tips and =the test reason,myself included. Sorry to disagree with you guys but my bamboo rods will =alwayshave two footed snake guides, silk thread and cork handle. If you want =to useceramic guides, a foam handle and the latest vibration dampening wrap =under thehandle, good for you. I'm sure it will look great in your PVC rod tube. =I'm nolemming and not a purist either and yet I find myself liking my =traditionlbelongings more and more. the construction of modern bamboo rods, it's amazing what changes have =taken place.New adhesive's, every building technique under the sun being tried, =includingsuch things like, new tapers, differing heat treating methods, =bevellers, tapermills, node presses and everything is analized and re analized. No =wonder thebest rods ever made are being made today. I think we've got the best of =both everbuild. Jim Send andreceive Hotmail on your mobile device: ClickHere from channer@frontier.net Sat Mar 2 17:55:27 2002 g22NtQ825199 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:55:26 -0600 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 16:55:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Tradition Hey!;Lets not be knockin PVC rod tubes!!!!If it weren't for schedule 40 pvc,mine would have to just rattle around in the back of the van uncovered.john(cheep in durango)and yes, they go real well with the decor in the doublewide LOL! from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Sat Mar 2 18:02:23 2002 g2302M825473 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:02:23 -0600 by direct-pest.com [208.27.26.103] for ; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 19:01:48 -0500 "rod" Subject: Re: More on Cascamite Using a low constant heat with your heat gun you can straighten without anyproblems. Manufacturer recommends using gloves when handling the glue. I can'tcomment about the toxicity. Because I don't really know. Thanks Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: More on Cascamite Could you tell me what kind of heat is needed to straighten sections (notthat mine every need it....), say compared to PU or other known glues? Also,is it as toxic as URAC 185 and the similar liquid glues used by manyrodmakers? Thanks.... Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: More on Cascamite You can pick up the same type of powdered Urea Formaldehyde at your localHome Depot/Lowe's store here stateside. Its called DAP Weldwood PlasticResin Glue. Comes in two colors. I use the tan because it blends with thenatural color of a blond rod. I have glued up 3 rods with this and have hadgood results. Pot life at 70 degrees is 4 hours, and it cleans up withwater. I must give credit for my discovery of this glue to Jerry Wall of JWFlyrods. He is the one that recommended it to me, and because I live in thefreaking boonies, he had to even send me some. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker----- Original Message ----- Subject: More on Cascamite I used powdered urea formaldehyde resin in Canada years ago forveneering panels with excellent results. At that time you could buy itin the local hardware store, though I don't recall the brand name. Theonly source I can find in the U.S. is the illustrious Custom-Pak (seehttp://www.custompak.com/Adhesives/Powdered%20Plastic%20Resin.htm).John Zimny, what do you think of this adhesive?--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Sat Mar 2 18:22:21 2002 g230MK825928 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:22:20 -0600 g230PR013533; Subject: Re: Casting Clinics Speaking of tradition. I used to be a teaching assistant for shootingsports in college. We had a really plain old Belgian Browning O/U skeet gunthat we'd use if someone just couldn't get the hang of swinging through thebird. The balance of the gun was such that once you got it going it wantedto keep going, unlike the school's Remington 1100's. Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Casting Clinics I haven't actually used cane for the casting part of my 15 week middleschool fly fishing activity, but I'll have to this year. Two weeks ago, when the head of the local TU was showing my dozen kidsthevarious types of fly rods out there, he'd pull each rod out of the bag andlay it on the library table in front of them... something like : an oldstyle fiberglass, followed by an early Sage, a nice Loomis, then abeautiful Winston, each with a matching reel (single action, then largearbor, etc). BUT, when he pulled out the bamboo rod and laid it with theothers, there was a collective gasp (honest to goodness) and thenuninhibited 7th and 8th grade oooos and ahhhs. Of course, the first student to recover turned to me and asked if they were going to get to try that kind of rod, too [:-)] Kat from robertgkope@attbi.com Sat Mar 2 18:30:00 2002 g230Tx826214 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:29:59 -0600 Subject: displacing nodes I had some questions for Tony Spezio about node displacing, but thought =the subject was interesting enough to put on the list. Besides, I know =that others are using this method and may also have advice to =contribute. Tony's article on node displacing in the latest issue of Powerfibers has =me interested enough to give it a try, but I still don't get how to =proceed after flattening the nodes. On most nodes, the crooks in the =strip going side to side are much more pronounced than the bumps in the =vertical dimension. After flattening the node, don't the bumps come =back when you reheat the node to straighten the strip? How about when =heat treating? I haven't tried soaking strips yet, but I've heard that =soaked strips shrink by nearly 20% when heat treated. Doesn't this make =the string so loose that the nodes go back to their original shape? TIA, Robert Kope I had some questions for Tony Spezio = displacing, but thought the subject was interesting enough to put on the = advice to contribute. Tony's article on node displacing in = issue of Powerfibers has me interested enough to give it a try, but I = crooks in the strip going side to side are much more pronounced than the = string so loose that the nodes go back to their original =shape? TIA, RobertKope from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Mar 2 18:35:32 2002 g230ZU826489 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:35:31 -0600 ,"rod" Subject: RE: More on Cascamite I'm unsure as to how toxicity is rated but I read recently (within the last 2 years) UFs toxicity in general were down graded and are not nearly as bad as it was previously thought. Tony At 01:38 PM 3/2/02 -0600, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Could you tell me what kind of heat is needed to straighten sections (not that mine every need it....), say compared to PU or other known glues? Also, is it as toxic as URAC 185 and the similar liquid glues used by many rodmakers? Thanks.... Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:59 AM Subject: Re: More on Cascamite You can pick up the same type of powdered Urea Formaldehyde at your localHome Depot/Lowe's store here stateside. Its called DAP Weldwood PlasticResin Glue. Comes in two colors. I use the tan because it blends with thenatural color of a blond rod. I have glued up 3 rods with this and have hadgood results. Pot life at 70 degrees is 4 hours, and it cleans up withwater. I must give credit for my discovery of this glue to Jerry Wall of JWFlyrods. He is the one that recommended it to me, and because I live in thefreaking boonies, he had to even send me some. Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker----- Original Message -----From: "Reed Curry" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 10:29 AMSubject: More on Cascamite I used powdered urea formaldehyde resin in Canada years ago forveneering panels with excellent results. At that time you could buy itin the local hardware store, though I don't recall the brand name. Theonly source I can find in the U.S. is the illustrious Custom-Pak (see http://www.custompak.com/Adhesives/Powdered%20Plastic%20Resin.htm ).John Zimny, what do you think of this adhesive?--Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Mar 2 18:55:16 2002 g230tF826967 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:55:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Casting Clinics Well, one is a gun and the other is just a bang stick. TY At 07:21 PM 3/2/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: Speaking of tradition. I used to be a teaching assistant for shootingsports in college. We had a really plain old Belgian Browning O/U skeet gunthat we'd use if someone just couldn't get the hang of swinging through thebird. The balance of the gun was such that once you got it going it wantedto keep going, unlike the school's Remington 1100's. Brian----- Original Message -----From: "D.P. Van Burgel & K.J. Scott" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics I haven't actually used cane for the casting part of my 15 week middleschool fly fishing activity, but I'll have to this year. Two weeks ago, when the head of the local TU was showing my dozen kidsthevarious types of fly rods out there, he'd pull each rod out of the bag andlay it on the library table in front of them... something like : an oldstyle fiberglass, followed by an early Sage, a nice Loomis, then abeautiful Winston, each with a matching reel (single action, then largearbor, etc). BUT, when he pulled out the bamboo rod and laid it with theothers, there was a collective gasp (honest to goodness) and thenuninhibited 7th and 8th grade oooos and ahhhs. Of course, the first student to recover turned to me and asked if they were going to get to try that kind of rod, too [:-)] Kat /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sat Mar 2 19:17:11 2002 g231HA827355 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 19:17:10 -0600 (authenticated) Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:17:03 -0800 Subject: Re: Gatherings --------------C31F0686952FF66FF7CB9504 Scott, Last weekend of October is the Southern (US)Rodmakers Gathering. More info at:http://www.curro.net/SRG/index2002.html Harry "C. Scott Bennett" wrote: List, Would some of you care to comment aboutthe various bamboo gatherings around the country(or the world for that matter)? I would love toattend one or more this year but I don't haveany info as to size, dates, locations, etc.Usually by the time I hear about some event, itis too late for me to make plans to attendbecause my wife has already made plans for me.That's why I love her... Thanks! Scott -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------C31F0686952FF66FF7CB9504 Scott, Rodmakers "C. Scott Bennett" wrote: some of you care to comment about the various bamboo gatherings around one or more this year but I don't have any info as to size, dates, locations, Scott -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------C31F0686952FF66FF7CB9504-- from jojo@ipa.net Sat Mar 2 19:24:25 2002 g231OO827633 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 19:24:24 -0600 helo=default) id 16hKjd-0004Gi-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 20:24:22 -0500 Subject: Re: displacing nodes Robert, I have two small vises. One is set up much as the one pictured in Tony's =article. The other has two wooden blocks of hard maple on one side, =spaced approx. 5/8" apart. On the other jaw is a single wooden block of =hard maple that will just fit between the space on the opposite side. I =use this vise and its jaws to straighten by displacement the doglegs at =the nodes. I've been thinking for some time to make a curved set of =jaws, as this would allow me to straighten a wider area. Maybe something =like Ray Gould has in his book. What I do is heat the node, work the sides of the node, and quickly put =the strip into the other vise for flattening the node. It really only =takes me about a minute and a half per node to heat and straighten, =though invariably some nodes take longer. Soaking the strips for an extended period of time has a great affect on =how well the nodes stay displaced. By soaking a minimum of 3 days, =though I think 4-5 is better, the nodes stay as they were when I began =the heat treating. The only time I've noticed nodes popping back is from =not having soaked the strips long enough. I believe this is due to the =lack of moisture content of the bamboo, and it not providing a good =heat transfer into the strip. The greater moisture content, coupled with =extreme heat seems to get deep into the strip, and all the displacing =stays put, yet the strip seems to suffer no damage. Yes, the strips shrink by a considerable amount, and yes the string is =somewhat more loose than when put into the oven, but no the nodes don't =pop back. M-D I had some questions for Tony Spezio about node displacing, but =thought the subject was interesting enough to put on the list. Besides, =I know that others are using this method and may also have advice to =contribute. Tony's article on node displacing in the latest issue of Powerfibers =has me interested enough to give it a try, but I still don't get how to =proceed after flattening the nodes. On most nodes, the crooks in the =strip going side to side are much more pronounced than the bumps in the =vertical dimension. After flattening the node, don't the bumps come =back when you reheat the node to straighten the strip? How about when =heat treating? I haven't tried soaking strips yet, but I've heard that =soaked strips shrink by nearly 20% when heat treated. Doesn't this make =the string so loose that the nodes go back to their original shape? TIA, Robert Kope Robert, I have two small vises.= much as the one pictured in Tony's article. The other has two wooden = hard maple on one side, spaced approx. 5/8" apart. On the other jaw is a = opposite side. I use this vise and its jaws to straighten by = doglegs at the nodes. I've been thinking for some time to make a curved = like Ray Gould has in his book. What I do is heat the = sides of the node, and quickly put the strip into the other vise for = the node. It really only takes me about a minute and a half per node to = straighten, though invariably some nodes take =longer. Soaking the strips foran = period of time has a great affect on how well the nodes stay displaced. = soaking a minimum of 3 days, though I think 4-5 is better, the nodes = they were when I began the heat treating. The only time I've noticed = popping back is from not having soaked the strips long enough. I believe = good heat transfer into the strip. The greater moisture content, coupled = put, yet the strip seems to suffer no damage. Yes, the strips shrink considerable amount, and yes the string is somewhat more loose than when = into the oven, but no the nodes don't pop back. M-D Kope I had some questions for Tony Spezio = displacing, but thought the subject was interesting enough to put on = have advice to contribute. Tony's article on node displacing in = issue of Powerfibers has me interested enough to give it a try, but I = crooks in the strip going side to side are much more pronounced than = shape? TIA, Robert =Kope from Troutgetter@aol.com Sat Mar 2 20:12:14 2002 g232CD828260 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:12:13 -0600 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:11:51 -0500 Subject: chat room anyone having trouble getting Todd's chat room to load up?Mike Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from Grnmtrds@aol.com Sat Mar 2 20:51:20 2002 g232pK828756 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:51:20 -0600 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:50:59 -0500 Subject: tradition Jim, What's the matter with sched 40 pipe? It fits in great with my furniture. Especially with the couch next to my three washing machines in the living room. Jim/Vermont from bennetts@cybermesa.com Sat Mar 2 21:12:33 2002 g233CW829152 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:12:32 -0600 Subject: Re: Tradition John, Your rods were so nice to look at and cast I never would have noticed theschedule 40 tubes if you had not pointed them out to me! Thanks for thedayfishing. Scott ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Tradition Hey!;Lets not be knockin PVC rod tubes!!!!If it weren't for schedule 40 pvc,mine would have to just rattle around in the back of the van uncovered.john(cheep in durango)and yes, they go real well with the decor in the doublewideLOL! from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Sun Mar 3 05:51:34 2002 g23BpY809839 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 05:51:34 -0600 Subject: Question for the metallurgists I was curious as to what is necessary to stress relieve steel bars? Is =this a diy project, and if not what kind of industry must one go to? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO I was curious as to what is necessary = relieve steel bars? Is this a diy project, and if not what kind of = one go to?TIA. Regards, SteveIndependence, =MO from gdabrowski@yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 06:50:52 2002 g23Coo810620 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 06:50:50 -0600 Sun, 03 Mar 2002 04:50:45 PST Subject: stress relieving Steve; Stress relieving is a process of reducing internal stresses byheating to a subcritical temperature long enough to assureuniformity, followed by slow cooling which will prevent thereintroduction of stresses. Normally heat to 1100 to 1300F and dwell shutting the oven off and letting it cool to below 500F. Stress relieving is done by Heat Treating Firms, usually in a batchprocess having a minimum charge of about $80 to 110 or more dependingon the oven required etc. You could DIY IF you can CONTROL the heating and cooling in a waythat does not introduce thermal stresses into your steel. Gary --- Steven trauthwein wrote: I was curious as to what is necessary to stress relieve steel bars?Is this a diy project, and if not what kind of industry must one goto?TIA. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseballhttp://sports.yahoo.com from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Sun Mar 3 07:15:59 2002 g23DFx810995 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:15:59 -0600 Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:15:57 +0000 Subject: Re: stress relieving The 'rule of thumb' for carbon steels is to allow 1hr per inch ofthickness at circa 620 Centigrade.........Paul Gary Dabrowski wrote: Steve; Stress relieving is a process of reducing internal stresses byheating to a subcritical temperature long enough to assureuniformity, followed by slow cooling which will prevent thereintroduction of stresses. Normally heat to 1100 to 1300F and dwell shutting the oven off and letting it cool to below 500F. Stress relieving is done by Heat Treating Firms, usually in a batchprocess having a minimum charge of about $80 to 110 or more dependingon the oven required etc. You could DIY IF you can CONTROL the heating and cooling in a waythat does not introduce thermal stresses into your steel. Gary --- Steven trauthwein wrote: I was curious as to what is necessary to stress relieve steel bars?Is this a diy project, and if not what kind of industry must one goto?TIA. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseballhttp://sports.yahoo.com from earsdws@duke.edu Sun Mar 3 08:19:39 2002 g23EJc812160 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 08:19:39 -0600 g23EJOH18130 for ; by yefremov.acpub.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA24496 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:19:24 -0500 Subject: Grizzley 3/4" bit Gang,A while back someone described using the Grizzley 3/4" tumbnail (C1215) bit for mortising reel seats. I can't recall how successful the enterprise was. Anyone out there have any experience with this, or similar bits?Thanks, dws. from aebersold@ou.edu Sun Mar 3 09:02:34 2002 g23F2X812826 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:02:34 -0600 id ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:02:31 -0600 Subject: Double Taper I am reading Milward's book and he says a DT line requires .004 increase inthe taper compared to using a WF line. That is almost the same as movingupone line weight. I was just comparing tapers on one of my WF and DT lines.The WF doesn't hit the running line for 40 feet. If I had on a ten footleader it doesn't look to me like the rod would see any difference until Iwas picking 50ft of line off the water and I would be casting with therunning line in the guides vs. the back belly of a DT which doens't happentoo often. Any thoughts?-dDennis Aebersold from flytyr@southshore.com Sun Mar 3 09:09:04 2002 g23F93813061 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:09:03 -0600 g23F91O14980 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:09:02 -0600 Subject: Re: Grizzley 3/4" bit That is what I use and I find it to be just fine.If you would like to see the set up and results I can send you some shots.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com earsdws@duke.edu wrote: Gang,A while back someone described using the Grizzley 3/4" tumbnail (C1215)bit for mortising reel seats. I can't recall how successful theenterprise was. Anyone out there have any experience with this, orsimilar bits?Thanks, dws. from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Sun Mar 3 09:30:42 2002 g23FUf813539 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:30:41 -0600 Subject: Sv: Double Taper g23FUg813540 Hi Dnnes Got Milards book a fewdays ago and noticed the same thing.I agree with You. If I regularly was casting + 60 feet I'd go downone line size in DT in order not to overload the rod. regards, Carsten ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Double Taper I am reading Milward's book and he says a DT line requires .004 increase inthe taper compared to using a WF line. That is almost the same as movingupone line weight. I was just comparing tapers on one of my WF and DT lines.The WF doesn't hit the running line for 40 feet. If I had on a ten footleader it doesn't look to me like the rod would see any difference until Iwas picking 50ft of line off the water and I would be casting with therunning line in the guides vs. the back belly of a DT which doens't happentoo often. Any thoughts?-dDennis Aebersold from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 3 09:34:30 2002 g23FYT813753 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:34:29 -0600 ([209.179.147.65] helo=computer) id 16hY0J-00043z-00; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 07:34:28 -0800 Subject: Re: Gatherings The Great Western Rodmakers Gathering will be in October. This will =occurr in Bishop CA. in the Eastern Sierras. Adam Vigil The Great Western RodmakersGathering = October. This will occurr in Bishop CA. in the Eastern =Sierras. Adam =Vigil from rvenneri@ulster.net Sun Mar 3 09:38:58 2002 g23Fcw813980 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:38:58 -0600 Organization: Venneri's Custom Components Subject: message for Harry Boyd Guys sorry for the bandwidth. My email and Harrys are not speaking toeach other. Im not sure why. Harry,I shipped the day we spoke. Ups has them in Cach IL. Not sure why tho.Here is a tracking # so you can track them too. I hate UPS I really do.1z1297060341761302 Best RegardsBob v from Dennishigham@cs.com Sun Mar 3 09:50:04 2002 g23Fo3814360 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:50:03 -0600 Subject: Re: Gatherings Scott,The Grayling, Michigan gathering is the 3rd weekend in June....starts Thur. evening (20th) with dinner @ whispering pines campground and ends Sat night with the Trout-Bum-Bar-B-Q. Checkout www.curro.net/grayrock2002 formore info. We're still working on the program so you won't see a published program Roscoe, New York the weekend after Labor day. Chris Bogart is trying to get Hap Mills to attend. More info from Chris @ cbogart@shentel.netThe Southern Rodmakers Gathering...the last weekend in October on theWhite River in Arkansas. Checkout www.curro.net/SRG/index2002.html. Thisprogram is under construction and more info will be available later this year. Dennis from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Mar 3 10:01:46 2002 g23G1j814701 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:01:45 -0600 (authenticated) Sun, 3 Mar 2002 08:01:40 -0800 Subject: Re: message for Harry Boyd Bob, and list... I too apologize, but Bob is correct -- our emails will not talk too eachother. Tried sending this off list to no avail. Thanks Bob... If my package to you hasn't arrived, give me a call thisafternoon while the rates are cheap. Harry Robert Venneri wrote: Guys sorry for the bandwidth. My email and Harrys are not speaking toeach other. Im not sure why. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from bennetts@cybermesa.com Sun Mar 3 10:06:33 2002 g23G6W814917 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:06:33 -0600 Subject: Re: Gatherings Mike, Concerning the Bishop gathering, is there a registration procedure or dopeople just show up? I better look at a map! Scott ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Gatherings Scott,Bishop CA mid OctoberBest to you,Mike Shay Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 3 10:06:43 2002 g23G6g814922 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:06:43 -0600 ([209.179.146.99] helo=computer) id 16hYVV-0007ga-00 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 08:06:41 -0800 Subject: PVC rod tubes? Oh Yea! Some may not like the PVC for rod tubes for cane but they do perform =great. A wood tube is pretty but is best suited for home storage and =presentation. A $65 aluminum rod tube is great but they do get scratched =and scared easily and if you travel give thieves a lot of ideas. A PVC =rod tube for travel is very strong. I throw them into the trunk with all =kinds of crap and if they get scratch who cares. They are plain and draw =no attention. They are more heat resistant then aluminum. This is a plus =when your rod is in your car on a hot summer day. If you get a sense of joy pulling your rod out of a aluminum tube that =is OK. Just do not leave it on the back seat of your car or you may come =back to a broken window and some of your gear gone. A PVC rod tube just =does not seem to get attention. Besides for $2 bucks it is hard to = I guess if the old time rodmakers were against changing tradition they =never would have switched to aluminum in the first place. It is rather a =new material. And if there are those set on following what the old =makers did remember they either started to make fiberglass rods or they =went out of business. I am not interested in following that tradition. Adam Vigil Some may not like the PVC for rodtubes = but they do perform great. A wood tube is pretty but is best suited for = storage and presentation. A $65 aluminum rod tube is great but they do = scratched and scared easily and if you travel give thieves a lot of = rod tube for travel is very strong. I throw them into the trunk with all = of crap and if they get scratch who cares. They are plain and draw no = They are more heat resistant then aluminum. This is a plus when your rod = your car on a hot summer day. out of a aluminum tube that is OK. Just do not leave it on the back seat = = = changing tradition they never would have switched to aluminum in the = place. It is rather a new material. And if there are those set on = the old makers did remember they either started to make fiberglass rods = tradition. AdamVigil from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 3 10:17:00 2002 g23GH0815514 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:17:00 -0600 ([209.179.146.99] helo=computer) id 16hYfQ-0001SJ-00; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 08:16:57 -0800 Subject: Re: Double Taper It seems to be TRADITION. To make the specs on your rods larger if you useaDT. If you are fishing within normal trout distances of up to 40 then theline weight is not much difference from a WF. If you are going up to theoccasional 60' your rod will still handle it OK. Tradition is a wonderful thing. But has anyone been hit by a monkeyrecently? Or maybe it Spanked by a Monkey? Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Double Taper I am reading Milward's book and he says a DT line requires .004 increase in the taper compared to using a WF line. That is almost the same as moving up one line weight. I was just comparing tapers on one of my WF and DT lines. The WF doesn't hit the running line for 40 feet. If I had on a ten footleader it doesn't look to me like the rod would see any difference until Iwas picking 50ft of line off the water and I would be casting with therunning line in the guides vs. the back belly of a DT which doens't happentoo often. Any thoughts?-dDennis Aebersold from iank@ts.co.nz Sun Mar 3 10:18:54 2002 g23GIr815711 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:18:53 -0600 by sage.ts.co.nz (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g23GS4228809 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu.KAV; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 05:28:04+1300 Mon, 4 Mar 2002 05:28:03 +1300 Subject: Re: Gatherings Scott, true Southern gathering in New Zealand, held this year on the 9th and = Attendees this year include overseas participants Jerry Madigan, Bob =Nunley, the Demarests, Danny Twang, Bob Milardo, Mike Roberts and a = We are now getting some more settled weather and rivers are looking = Subject: Gatherings Would some of you care to comment about the various bamboo gatherings=around the country (or the world for that matter)? I would love to =attend one or more this year but I don't have any info as to size, =dates, locations, etc. Usually by the time I hear about some event, it =is too late for me to make plans to attend because my wife has already = Thanks! Scott Scott, year on the 9th and 10th of March. The next one will be in about 2 years = Attendees this year include overseas = Jerry Madigan, Bob Nunley, the Demarests, Danny Twang, Bob Milardo, Mike = We are now getting some more settled= rivers are looking great . Ian ----- Original Message ----- Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 = AMSubject: Gatherings List, Would some of you care to comment = about some event, it is too late for me to make plans to attend = Scott from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 3 10:34:19 2002 g23GYI816135 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:34:18 -0600 ([209.179.146.130] helo=computer) id 16hYwB-0006iE-00; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 08:34:16 -0800 Subject: Re: Gatherings Scott, We will want to have a head count. And will have more details later. But weare looking forward to having demos on a lot of the details of rodmaking:cane selection, splitting, node pressing, flaming and heat treating with thetorch, nodeless making, A lot of information for beginning rodmakers andthe curious. We will have a lot of experience there and hope to have a lotof helping hands this year. Fishing is 10 minutes away and the weather willis always great. drop me an email. There a several of us already willing to help out ChuckIrvine this year and any help or donations will not be refused. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Gatherings Mike, Concerning the Bishop gathering, is there a registration procedure or dopeople just show up? I better look at a map! Scott ----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 12:15 PMSubject: Re: Gatherings Scott,Bishop CA mid OctoberBest to you,Mike Shay Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Sun Mar 3 10:49:29 2002 g23GnS816668 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:49:28 -0600 Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:49:26 +0000 Subject: Re: Gatherings ......and don't forget the UK one in early November !........Paul from stoltz10@attbi.com Sun Mar 3 11:01:26 2002 g23H1P817070 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 11:01:25 -0600 Subject: Gudebrod thread I was at the fabric store and noticed a large selection of Gudebrod silk =thread, has anyone had any experience with this thread? I was at the fabric store and noticed a= selection of Gudebrod silk thread, has anyone had any experience with = thread? from Troutgetter@aol.com Sun Mar 3 11:21:56 2002 g23HLt817534 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 11:21:55 -0600 Subject: Re: Gatherings Scott,Registration is required (sort of). The gathering is held at Chuck Irvine's home in Bishop and his wife needs to know how much food to buy. LastOctober it was $10.00 a head. Go to the URL below to take a look. This page is set up 2002 event. but directions to Chuck's is there. If you need to know how to get to Bishop, US 395 runs through the center of town. I'm not sure where you'd be coming from, let me know and we'll figure it out! http://orphanlaptops.com/gw2001.htm Mike Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Sun Mar 3 11:23:09 2002 g23HN8817713 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 11:23:08 -0600 Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:22:58 -0800 Sun, 03 Mar 2002 17:22:58 GMT Subject: RE: Tradition FILETIME=[1088CD90:01C1C2D8] Barry: never been snoobish about what any builder wants to do with his rods orcases or anything else for that matter. Use whatever you like, that's what I opinion as to what's traditional bother's you, I can live with agree. But in your good for velvet Tradition shoes, a old snowshoes, threatened because I like good fishing with fortune on pike and in many perfectly double guns, to improve TV, or my Much of my non replaced by traditional belongings shoes are time and people included. Sorry have two footed use ceramic wrap under the rod tube. liking my amazing what technique under differing and rods ever both worlds, Chat with friends online, try MSNMessenger: ClickHere from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Sun Mar 3 11:45:39 2002 g23Hjc818226 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 11:45:38 -0600 Subject: Re: Grizzley 3/4" bit Works very well. The radius of the actual cut is 5/16", or 5/8" diameterwhich fits the reel foot nicely. Make a jig to hold the insert per JackHowell's book, or see Powerfibers #3. Take light cuts and make sure thecenter of the fingernail is centered on the reel seat. KurtNixa, MO ------Original Message----- Subject: Grizzley 3/4" bit Gang,A while back someone described using the Grizzley 3/4" tumbnail (C1215)bit for mortising reel seats. I can't recall how successful theenterprise was. Anyone out there have any experience with this, orsimilar bits?Thanks, dws. from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Sun Mar 3 11:45:47 2002 g23Hjk818235 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 11:45:46 -0600 Subject: Re: displacing nodes Yes, the strips shrink by a considerable amount, and yes the string is =somewhat more loose than when put into the oven, but no the nodes don't =pop back. I have not measured a strip before soaking, but I bet it swells during =soaking, then shrinks again during the heat treating. Of course you =have to take this into consideration when rough planing, but I would =think that if a strip was measured, soaked and heat treated, that the =final dimension would be very close to the original. I too soak and displace. Struggled a long time on my first rod trying = KurtNixa, MO-----Original Message-----From: Jojo DeLancier Subject: Re: displacing nodes Robert, I have two small vises. One is set up much as the one pictured in =Tony's article. The other has two wooden blocks of hard maple on one =side, spaced approx. 5/8" apart. On the other jaw is a single wooden =block of hard maple that will just fit between the space on the opposite =side. I use this vise and its jaws to straighten by displacement the =doglegs at the nodes. I've been thinking for some time to make a curved =set of jaws, as this would allow me to straighten a wider area. Maybe =something like Ray Gould has in his book. What I do is heat the node, work the sides of the node, and quickly =put the strip into the other vise for flattening the node. It really =only takes me about a minute and a half per node to heat and straighten, =though invariably some nodes take longer. Soaking the strips for an extended period of time has a great affect =on how well the nodes stay displaced. By soaking a minimum of 3 days, =though I think 4-5 is better, the nodes stay as they were when I began =the heat treating. The only time I've noticed nodes popping back is from =not having soaked the strips long enough. I believe this is due to the =lack of moisture content of the bamboo, and it not providing a good =heat transfer into the strip. The greater moisture content, coupled with =extreme heat seems to get deep into the strip, and all the displacing =stays put, yet the strip seems to suffer no damage. Yes, the strips shrink by a considerable amount, and yes the string =is somewhat more loose than when put into the oven, but no the nodes =don't pop back. M-D I had some questions for Tony Spezio about node displacing, but =thought the subject was interesting enough to put on the list. Besides, =I know that others are using this method and may also have advice to =contribute. Tony's article on node displacing in the latest issue of =Powerfibers has me interested enough to give it a try, but I still don't =get how to proceed after flattening the nodes. On most nodes, the =crooks in the strip going side to side are much more pronounced than the =bumps in the vertical dimension. After flattening the node, don't the =bumps come back when you reheat the node to straighten the strip? How =about when heat treating? I haven't tried soaking strips yet, but I've =heard that soaked strips shrink by nearly 20% when heat treated. =Doesn't this make the string so loose that the nodes go back to their =original shape? TIA, Robert Kope Yes, the strips shrink considerable amount, and yes the string is somewhat more loose than when = into the oven, but no the nodes don't pop back. I have not measured a strip before= planing, but I would think that if a strip was measured, soaked and heat = original. KurtNixa, MO -----Original = Saturday, March 02, 2002 7:34 PMSubject: Re: = nodesRobert, I have two small = set up much as the one pictured in Tony's article. The other has two = blocks of hard maple on one side, spaced approx. 5/8" apart. On = between the space on the opposite side. I use this vise and its jaws = straighten by displacement the doglegs at the nodes. I've been = book. What I do is heat the = the sides of the node, and quickly put the strip into the other vise = flattening the node. It really only takes me about a minute and a = longer. Soaking the strips = extended period of time has a great affect on how well the nodes = displaced. By soaking a minimum of 3 days, though I think 4-5 is = nodes stay as they were when I began the heat treating. The only = noticed nodes popping back is from not having soaked the strips long = and it not providing a good heat transfer into the strip. The = moisture content, coupled with extreme heat seems to get deep into = no damage. Yes, the strips = considerable amount, and yes the string is somewhat more loose than = into the oven, but no the nodes don't pop =back. M-D Robert Kope I had some questions for Tony = node displacing, but thought the subject was interesting enough = may also have advice to contribute. Tony's article on node = latest issue of Powerfibers has me interested enough to give it = but I still don't get how to proceed after flattening the = On most nodes, the crooks in the strip going side to side are = flattening the node, don't the bumps come back when you reheat = haven't tried soaking strips yet, but I've heard that soaked = shape? TIA, Kope from tedknott@cogeco.ca Sun Mar 3 11:51:41 2002 g23Hpe818721 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 11:51:40 -0600 Subject: Re: Gatherings The Canadian "Grand" Gathering, named after the river and location insouthern Ontario, is held every two years. The next meeting is scheduled Attendance is around 70 persons who come from all over Canada and thenorthern states. I'll post more info as soon as planning gets underway,probably late fall of this year. The 26th Canadian Fly Fishing Forum (the oldest fly fishing show in N.A.?)will be held at Exhibition Place in toronto, April 6 and 7. In addition tothe many seminars on fly fishing and fly tying there will be area bamboo rodmakers demonstrating rod making and show casing some of their bamboorods. from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Sun Mar 3 11:52:10 2002 g23Hq6818802 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 11:52:10 -0600 ;Sun, 3 Mar 2002 18:52:05 +0100 Subject: Sv: Gudebrod thread regards, Carsten Subject: Gudebrod thread I was at the fabric store and noticed a large selection of Gudebrod =silk thread, has anyone had any experience with this thread? It is OK stuff. regards, Carsten ----- Original Message ----- Tim Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 = PMSubject: Gudebrod thread I was at the fabric store and noticed = selection of Gudebrod silk thread, has anyone had any experience with = thread? from harms1@pa.net Sun Mar 3 12:20:04 2002 g23IK3819471 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 12:20:03 -0600 , Subject: Re: Casting Clinics They're both just "bang-sticks," but at least the B/B is well-made. Now, aBoss, HH, Woodward, Rigby, Purdy, Fabbri--now, THOSE are some guns! cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Casting Clinics Well, one is a gun and the other is just a bang stick. TY At 07:21 PM 3/2/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: Speaking of tradition. I used to be a teaching assistant for shootingsports in college. We had a really plain old Belgian Browning O/U skeet gun that we'd use if someone just couldn't get the hang of swinging through the bird. The balance of the gun was such that once you got it going it wanted to keep going, unlike the school's Remington 1100's. Brian----- Original Message -----From: "D.P. Van Burgel & K.J. Scott" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics I haven't actually used cane for the casting part of my 15 week middleschool fly fishing activity, but I'll have to this year. Two weeks ago, when the head of the local TU was showing my dozenkids the various types of fly rods out there, he'd pull each rod out of the bag and lay it on the library table in front of them... something like : an old style fiberglass, followed by an early Sage, a nice Loomis, then abeautiful Winston, each with a matching reel (single action, then large arbor, etc). BUT, when he pulled out the bamboo rod and laid it with the others, there was a collective gasp (honest to goodness) and thenuninhibited 7th and 8th grade oooos and ahhhs. Of course, the first student to recover turned to me and asked if they were going to get to try that kind of rod, too [:-)] Kat /*************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Sun Mar 3 12:35:34 2002 g23IZT819935 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 12:35:29 -0600 g23IYxo08796; Subject: Re: Gatherings Send us some pictures when you can. Brian Subject: Re: Gatherings Scott, true Southern gathering in New Zealand, held this year on the 9th and = Attendees this year include overseas participants Jerry Madigan, Bob =Nunley, the Demarests, Danny Twang, Bob Milardo, Mike Roberts and a = We are now getting some more settled weather and rivers are looking = Subject: Gatherings Would some of you care to comment about the various bamboo =gatherings around the country (or the world for that matter)? I would =love to attend one or more this year but I don't have any info as to =size, dates, locations, etc. Usually by the time I hear about some =event, it is too late for me to make plans to attend because my wife has = Thanks! Scott Send us some pictures when you =can. Brian ----- Original Message ----- Ian Kearney= rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Gatherings Scott, year on the 9th and 10th of March. The next one will be in about 2 = Attendees this year include overseas = Jerry Madigan, Bob Nunley, the Demarests, Danny Twang, Bob Milardo, = Roberts and a number of other lesser known but equally illustrious = We are now getting some more settled= rivers are looking great . Ian ----- Original Message ----- Scott Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 = AMSubject: Gatherings List, Would some of you care to comment = about some event, it is too late for me to make plans to attend = Scott from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Mar 3 13:01:55 2002 g23J1s820636 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:01:54 -0600 (authenticated) Sun, 3 Mar 2002 11:01:44 -0800 Subject: Re: PVC rod tubes? Oh Yea! --------------9ADA99A36F3EFD59A3D668FC Adam, A small issue needs to be raised concerning PVC tubes,especially the lighter weight Schedule 10 and Schedule 20stuff. If left leaning in a corner at a severe angle, in ahot place, they will take a set, and so will the rodinside... Trust me, I seem to learn every lesson the hardway. Schedule 40 seems impervious to heat up to about 200*,but is more expensive, and heavier than aluminum. Also, by the time one pays for $3 worth of PVC tubing,and $8 worth of end cap and male and female screw fittings time and effort. For $17 each I buy nice aluminum tubes,black powder coated with my logo silk screened on them.Guess which ones I buy? If you are worried about themgetting stolen, store them in the trunk of your car, orunder the seat of your truck. Landmark Components(970)278-1311, no website, and tell Ron Cilli that I sentyou. (no interest, etc.) They do an adequate job of protecting the rod, thoughthey are not bomb proof. I can't imagine paying $65 for analuminum tube though, and would agree with you that that'stoo much money to pay. Harry Adam Vigil wrote: Some may not like the PVC for rod tubes for cane but theydo perform great. A wood tube is pretty but is best suited is great --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------9ADA99A36F3EFD59A3D668FC Adam, tubes, If left leaning in a corner at a severe angle, in a hot place, they will to about 200*, but is more expensive, and heavier than aluminum. tubing,and $8 worth of end cap and male and female screw fittings for the PVC, $17 each I buy nice aluminum tubes, black powder coated with my logo silk about them getting stolen, store them in the trunk of your car, or under website, though tube though, and would agree with you that that's too much money to pay. Adam Vigil wrote: Somemay not like the PVC for rod tubes for cane but they do perform great.A wood tube is pretty but is best suited for home storage and presentation.A $65 aluminum rod tube is great--Harry Boyd --------------9ADA99A36F3EFD59A3D668FC-- from carstenjorgensen@mail.dk Sun Mar 3 13:09:46 2002 g23J9j820956 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:09:45 -0600 ;Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:09:44 +0100 , Subject: Sv: Casting Clinics g23J9k820957 Bill I humbly disagree: The BB is per tradition not as esteemed asPurdy, Churchill and others. BUT: it is a very well made toolbuilt to last and shoots well. regards, carsten ----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Re: Casting Clinics They're both just "bang-sticks," but at least the B/B is well-made. Now, aBoss, HH, Woodward, Rigby, Purdy, Fabbri--now, THOSE are some guns! cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 8:01 PMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics Well, one is a gun and the other is just a bang stick. TY At 07:21 PM 3/2/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: Speaking of tradition. I used to be a teaching assistant for shootingsports in college. We had a really plain old Belgian Browning O/U skeet gun that we'd use if someone just couldn't get the hang of swinging through the bird. The balance of the gun was such that once you got it going it wanted to keep going, unlike the school's Remington 1100's. Brian----- Original Message -----From: "D.P. Van Burgel & K.J. Scott" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics I haven't actually used cane for the casting part of my 15 weekmiddleschool fly fishing activity, but I'll have to this year. Two weeks ago, when the head of the local TU was showing my dozenkids the various types of fly rods out there, he'd pull each rod out of the bag and lay it on the library table in front of them... something like : an old style fiberglass, followed by an early Sage, a nice Loomis, then abeautiful Winston, each with a matching reel (single action, then large arbor, etc). BUT, when he pulled out the bamboo rod and laid it with the others, there was a collective gasp (honest to goodness) and thenuninhibited 7th and 8th grade oooos and ahhhs. Of course, the first student to recover turned to me and asked ifthey were going to get to try that kind of rod, too [:-)] Kat /*************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Sun Mar 3 13:31:36 2002 g23JVZ821418 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:31:35 -0600 g23JYbL21373; Subject: Re: PVC rod tubes? Oh Yea! Ron's a really great guy to deal with. He also has some nice aluminum =screwlock reel seats. NS too, though they are a little heavy. NFI, =....... Brian Subject: Re: PVC rod tubes? Oh Yea! A small issue needs to be raised concerning PVC tubes, especially =the lighter weight Schedule 10 and Schedule 20 stuff. If left leaning =in a corner at a severe angle, in a hot place, they will take a set, and =so will the rod inside... Trust me, I seem to learn every lesson the =hard way. Schedule 40 seems impervious to heat up to about 200*, but is = Also, by the time one pays for $3 worth of PVC tubing, and $8 =worth of end cap and male and female screw fittings for the PVC, you've =got $11 in the PVC tube, plus glue and time and effort. For $17 each I =buy nice aluminum tubes, black powder coated with my logo silk screened =on them. Guess which ones I buy? If you are worried about them getting =stolen, store them in the trunk of your car, or under the seat of your =truck. Landmark Components (970)278-1311, no website, and tell Ron = They do an adequate job of protecting the rod, though they are not =bomb proof. I can't imagine paying $65 for an aluminum tube though, and = Some may not like the PVC for rod tubes for cane but they do perform =great. A wood tube is pretty but is best suited for home storage and =presentation. A $65 aluminum rod tube is great Ron's a really great guy to deal = Brian ----- Original Message ----- Harry= Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 = PMSubject: Re: PVC rod tubes? Oh =Yea! leaning in a corner at a severe angle, in a hot place, they will take = and $8 worth of end cap and male and female screw fittings for the = buy nice aluminum tubes, black powder coated with my logo silk = getting stolen, store them in the trunk of your car, or under the seat = Some may not like the PVC for rod = cane but they do perform great. A wood tube is pretty but is best = from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Sun Mar 3 13:44:23 2002 g23JiM821740 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:44:22 -0600 Sun, 3 Mar 2002 11:44:13 -0800 Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:44:12 GMT Subject: Re: tradition FILETIME=[CB848F90:01C1C2EB] Hey Jim: something nicer. See you at Grayrocks. my furniture. machines in the living Chat with friends online, try MSNMessenger: ClickHere from flytyr@southshore.com Sun Mar 3 13:49:57 2002 g23Jnu822005 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:49:56 -0600 g23JnsO18178 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:49:54 -0600 Subject: Tapping photos and flat head screws.Fingetmail bit I think I sent the photos to all that wantedthem. There were quite a few requests so I mightof missed some of you. If you requested the shotsand did not get them, let me know. Will send outthe Fingernail setup later today or tomorrow.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from HalManas@aol.com Sun Mar 3 14:23:35 2002 g23KNY822850 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 14:23:34 -0600 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:23:18 -0500 Subject: Green List,What's with the GRRREEEENN! backgrounds? Hal from jojo@ipa.net Sun Mar 3 15:27:38 2002 g23LRc824235 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:27:38 -0600 helo=default) id 16hdW5-0006Lc-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 16:27:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Green Apparently Scott is enthralled with Caterpillar Gut Green and HTML. Sure didliven things up around here. M-D List,What's with the GRRREEEENN! backgrounds? Hal from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sun Mar 3 15:34:44 2002 g23LYh824492 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:34:43 -0600 Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:34:34 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Tradition Thread-Topic: TraditionThread-Index: AcHC2BFEEaHEtC7KEda4KABglOouXwAImc5g FILETIME=[3632C000:01C1C2FB] Jim - No bother, Jim, and I certainly didn't mean to offend, just anapparently poor attempt at a semi-humorous observation. And I do getpretty sensitive about my velvet Elvis paintings - you'll notice thatPVC has defenders on the list, but not ONE of them mentioned my Elvises.Maybe I can find a Velvet Elvis list where they have some respect forbamboo. Enjoy your traditions! Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Tradition Barry:It matter nothing to me as to what you or anyone else uses for yourrod tubes, be they PVC or a gunny sack. I've never been snoobish aboutwhat any builder wants to do with his rods or cases or anything else forthat matter. Use whatever you like, that's what I do. I just don'tconsider a PVC rod tube to be traditional for a bamboo rod. Same thingsgoes for the single foot snake guides. If my pesonal opinion as towhat's traditional bother's you, I can live with it.Jim wearing something that my grandpa wore. Makes me feel good fishing with the latest and greatest item of whatever came down the pike and in many good automatic shotguns and yet I still own my traditional double guns, no need to get a new one of them, they're just to traditional to another new latest and greatest item. Many of my traditional belongings are still with me. Still got those wing tips and the platform shoes are long gone. Many traditional items have stood the test of time and have come to respect them for that very reason, myself included. to disagree with you guys but my bamboo rods will always have two guides, a foam handle and the latest vibration dampening wrap under the handle, good for you. I'm sure it will look great in your PVC rod tube. changes have taken place. New adhesive's, every building technique Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: ClickHere v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} 0DocumentEmail Ji=m – No=bother,Jim, and I certainly didn’t mean to offend, just an apparently =poor attempt ata semi-humorous observation. And I do get pretty sensitive about my =velvet Elvispaintings – you’ll notice that PVC has defenders on the =list, but not ONE ofthem mentioned my Elvises. Maybe I can find a Velvet Elvis list where =they havesome respect for bamboo. En=joy yourtraditions! Ba=rry -----OriginalMessage-----From: Jim Bureau Sent: Sunday, March 03,=2002 11:23AM RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: =Tradition Barry: to what builderwants to do with his rods or cases or anything else for that matter. Usewhatever you like, that's what I do. I just don't consider a PVC rod =tube to be footsnake guides. If my pesonal opinion as to what's traditional bother's =you, Ican live with it. Jim "Kling, Barry W." = RE: Tradition Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:22:44 -0600 say, if you like it then do it and good for you, I agree. But = just can't resist adding "I'm sure it will look great in your = tube." Kind of like saying, If you like that couch, good for = sure it will look good in your double-wide with the velvet = paintings. If this is tolerance I'd hate to see snobbery. = Message----- Saturday, March 02, 2002 12:12 PM RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu Tradition the rest of the story. traditionalist of sorts, have a pair of winged tip shoes, a old = hunting mackinac coat, double barrel shotgun, rawhide snowshoes, = closet full of bamboo flyrods. Why, not because I was threatened = whippin from others for not falling in line, but because I like = something that my grandpa wore. Makes me feel good fishing with = Garrison did. I'm 55 years old and spent a small fortune on = latest and greatest item of whatever came down the pike and in many = have little to show for it. I've bought and sold five perfectly = automatic shotguns and yet I still own my traditional double guns, = to get a new one of them, they're just to traditional to improve = not talking about my micro wave oven, my color TV, or my = Waders. You'd have to fight me for the waders. Much of my non = stuff is long g! one, sold at a garage sale or replaced by = new latest and greatest item. Many of my traditional belongings = with me. Still got those wing tips and the platform shoes are = Many traditional items have stood the test of time and people = to respect them for that very reason, myself included. Sorry = disagree with you guys but my bamboo rods will always have two footed = guides, silk thread and cork handle. If you want to use ceramic = foam handle and the latest vibration dampening wrap under the = good for you. I'm sure it will look great in your PVC rod tube. = lemming and not a purist either and yet I find myself liking my = belongings more and more. the construction of modern bamboo rods, it's amazing what = have taken place. New adhesive's, every building technique under = being tried, including such things like, new tapers, differing = treating methods, bevellers, taper mills, node presses and = is analized and re analized. No wonder the best rods ever = being made today. I think we've got the best of both worlds, = single foot guides, not on any bamboo rod I'll ever build. = receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here Chat withfriends online, try MSN Messenger: ClickHere from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Sun Mar 3 15:58:53 2002 g23Lwq825133 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:58:52 -0600 Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:56:39 -0800 Sun, 03 Mar 2002 21:56:38 GMT Subject: Re: Green FILETIME=[4BC9C280:01C1C2FE] Green, are you talking RED GREEN. He's the man, long live duct discussion group" and HTML. Sure did liven things up around here. Join the world's largest e-mail servicewith MSN Hotmail. ClickHere from bennetts@cybermesa.com Sun Mar 3 16:12:11 2002 g23MC9825541 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:12:10 -0600 Subject: Re: Green Gee, I thought everybody had "caterpillar gut green" background. And whatdoes "HTML" mean anyway? I'll change it if you tell me how. Computer illiterate, Scott ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Green Apparently Scott is enthralled with Caterpillar Gut Green and HTML. Sure did liven things up around here. M-D From: List,What's with the GRRREEEENN! backgrounds? Hal from jojo@ipa.net Sun Mar 3 17:37:04 2002 g23Nb4828713 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:37:04 -0600 helo=default) id 16hfXK-0005zI-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 18:37:03 -0500 Subject: Re: displacing nodes The strips certainly swell while soaking. I tie tip strips together ,and buttstrips together when soaking, and thethread is always tighter when I remove the strips from the water. I've nevermeasured dry strips vs. wet, as I onlycared about the final outcome. Without doubt the strips after heat treatingare smaller than before. I suspect that isthe case for non-soaked strips, as well. M-D Yes, the strips shrink by a considerable amount, and yes the string issomewhat more loose than when put into the oven,but no the nodes don't pop back. I have not measured a strip before soaking, but I bet it swells during soaking,then shrinks again during the heattreating. Of course you have to take this into consideration when roughplaning, but I would think that if a strip wasmeasured, soaked and heat treated, that the final dimension would be veryclose to the original. I too soak and displace. Struggled a long time on my first rod trying tostraighted strips dry until the list suggestedsoaking. KurtNixa, MO Robert, I have two small vises. One is set up much as the one pictured in Tony'sarticle. The other has two wooden blocks ofhard maple on one side, spaced approx. 5/8" apart. On the other jaw is asingle wooden block of hard maple that willjust fit between the space on the opposite side. I use this vise and its jaws tostraighten by displacement the doglegsat the nodes. I've been thinking for some time to make a curved set of jaws,as this would allow me to straighten awider area. Maybe something like Ray Gould has in his book. What I do is heat the node, work the sides of the node, and quickly put thestrip into the other vise for flattening thenode. It really only takes me about a minute and a half per node to heat andstraighten, though invariably some nodestake longer. Soaking the strips for an extended period of time has a great affect on howwell the nodes stay displaced. By soaking aminimum of 3 days, though I think 4-5 is better, the nodes stay as they werewhen I began the heat treating. The onlytime I've noticed nodes popping back is from not having soaked the stripslong enough. I believe this is due to the lackof moisture content of the bamboo, and it not providing a good heattransfer into the strip. The greater moisturecontent, coupled with extreme heat seems to get deep into the strip, and allthe displacing stays put, yet the stripseems to suffer no damage. Yes, the strips shrink by a considerable amount, and yes the string issomewhat more loose than when put into the oven,but no the nodes don't pop back. M-D I had some questions for Tony Spezio about node displacing, but thought thesubject was interesting enough to put on thelist. Besides, I know that others are using this method and may also haveadvice to contribute. Tony's article on node displacing in the latest issue of Powerfibers has meinterested enough to give it a try, but Istill don't get how to proceed after flattening the nodes. On most nodes, thecrooks in the strip going side to sideare much more pronounced than the bumps in the vertical dimension. Afterflattening the node, don't the bumps come backwhen you reheat the node to straighten the strip? How about when heattreating? I haven't tried soaking strips yet,but I've heard that soaked strips shrink by nearly 20% when heat treated. Doesn't this make the string so loose thatthe nodes go back to their original shape? TIA, Robert Kope from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Mar 3 17:41:06 2002 g23Nf5829514 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:41:05 -0600 Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:40:25 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: PVC rod tubes? Oh Yea! --------------E70E0BD1C0ED0D1B6CF2583A HMMMMM,I can see a point here, I thought I was gettingcarried away when I started making a Nova Scotia Tartan rod bag AND aNova Scotia Tartan bag for the $100+ aluminum rod tubes I use.I agree $100 is allot for a rod tube, just crazy Iguess, oh by the way those ones are almost bomb proof!Shawn Harry Boyd wrote: Adam, A small issue needs to be raised concerning PVC tubes, especiallythe lighter weight Schedule 10 and Schedule 20 stuff. If left leaningin a corner at a severe angle, in a hot place, they will take a set,and so will the rod inside... Trust me, I seem to learn every lessonthe hard way. Schedule 40 seems impervious to heat up to about 200*,but is more expensive, and heavier than aluminum. Also, by the time one pays for $3 worth of PVC tubing, and $8worth of end cap and male and female screw fittings for the PVC,you've got $11 in the PVC tube, plus glue and time and effort. For$17 each I buy nice aluminum tubes, black powder coated with my logosilk screened on them. Guess which ones I buy? If you are worriedabout them getting stolen, store them in the trunk of your car, orunder the seat of your truck. Landmark Components (970)278-1311, nowebsite, and tell Ron Cilli that I sent you. (no interest, etc.) They do an adequate job of protecting the rod, though they are notbomb proof. I can't imagine paying $65 for an aluminum tube though,and would agree with you that that's too much money to pay. Harry Adam Vigil wrote: Some may not like the PVC for rod tubes for cane but they do performgreat. A wood tube is pretty but is best suited for home storage andpresentation. A $65 aluminum rod tube is great --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------E70E0BD1C0ED0D1B6CF2583A HMMMMM, I can see a point here, I thought I was getting carried away when I startedmaking a Nova Scotia Tartan rod bag AND a Nova ScotiaTartanbag for the $100+ aluminum rod tubes I use. I agree $100 is allot for a rod tube, just crazy I guess, oh by the waythose ones are almost bomb proof! ShawnHarry Boyd wrote:Adam, tubes, If left leaning in a corner at a severe angle, in a hot place, they will to about 200*, but is more expensive, and heavier than aluminum. tubing,and $8 worth of end cap and male and female screw fittings for the PVC, $17 each I buy nice aluminum tubes, black powder coated with my logo silk about them getting stolen, store them in the trunk of your car, or under website, though tube though, and would agree with you that that's too much money to pay. Adam Vigil wrote: Somemay not like the PVC for rod tubes for cane but they do perform great.A wood tube is pretty but is best suited for home storage and presentation.A $65 aluminum rod tube is great--Harry Boyd Bamboo Rods Our Church --------------E70E0BD1C0ED0D1B6CF2583A-- from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun Mar 3 17:47:05 2002 g23Nl4800645 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:47:04 -0600 Subject: Re: displacing nodes Hi all, I don't know if anyone else has tried this, but I thoughtyou mite like to know this. I soaked my strips for 48 hours, then planed using aMorgan Hand Mill. I decided to take a strip all the way to finaldimension and see how much shrinkage I would get. I wiped the strip down with a towel and started planing.I took my time, around 15 minutes, to get to the final dimension.The strip seemed fairly dry by then. I took measurements at different locations and wrote them down. I came back out 24 hours later and measured again. Nochange! I came back out another 24 hours later (48hours total)and measured again. No change in my measurements. It looks to me, that the strips can't be swelling too muchwhen soaking, or shrinking much when drying. As the dimensions were the same when I paned them wet and rechecked them48 hours after drying. Just thought you mite like to know. Have a good one, Dave L. check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from jojo@ipa.net Sun Mar 3 17:54:45 2002 g23Nsi801451 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:54:44 -0600 helo=default) id 16hfoR-0000q2-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 18:54:43 -0500 Subject: Re: displacing nodes That's interesting, Dave. In the drying tests I did, it took 26 hours to go fromcomplete saturation to original weightof a test piece. Granted, this was but a small piece, and certainly it wouldtake longer for a complete strip to dry. I know, only from observation, that the strips do swell while being soaked butnot by how much, and have no idea whathappens after that. Now you've given me something else to which I must payattention. ;o) I just today heat treated somestrips, and I know what the dimension was prior to heat treating. I'll checkthem tomorrow and see how much they mighthave shrunk. M-D Hi all,I don't know if anyone else has tried this, but I thoughtyou mite like to know this. I soaked my strips for 48 hours, then planed using aMorgan Hand Mill. I decided to take a strip all the way to finaldimension and see how much shrinkage I would get. I wiped the strip down with a towel and started planing.I took my time, around 15 minutes, to get to the final dimension.The strip seemed fairly dry by then. I took measurements atdifferent locations and wrote them down. I came back out 24 hours later and measured again. Nochange! I came back out another 24 hours later (48hours total)and measured again. No change in my measurements. It looks to me, that the strips can't be swelling too muchwhen soaking, or shrinking much when drying. As the dimensionswere the same when I paned them wet and rechecked them48 hours after drying. Just thought you mite like to know. Have a good one, Dave L. check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun Mar 3 18:04:18 2002 g2404H802926 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 18:04:17 -0600 Subject: Re: displacing nodes In a message dated 03/03/2002 6:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,jojo@ipa.net writes: Yes, I think the strips will shrink some when heat treating.I rough out my strips with my power mill and then heat treat.Then I soak them prior to the final planing. I was usually taking them down to around .020" oversize and then let them dry for a day or so, before taking them to final size.I decided to take them to final size, when wet and see whatdifference, if any, it would make. What I came up with was a surprise to me. I thought the stripswould shrink, at least a little. But, from what I can tell, they didn'tshrink at all, from wet to dry. So, from now on, I will plane all the way to final dimensionswith wet strips. It will be a lot faster than what I was doing. Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from harms1@pa.net Sun Mar 3 18:37:31 2002 g240bU807861 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 18:37:31 -0600 ,, Subject: Re: Casting Clinics Carsten, I think that's sort of what I said, wasn't it? I have a couple BelgianBrownings and I like them very much. They're good, reliable guns, andthey'll take as many birds (clay or feathered) as some of my best guns. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Sv: Casting Clinics Bill I humbly disagree: The BB is per tradition not as esteemed asPurdy, Churchill and others. BUT: it is a very well made toolbuilt to last and shoots well. regards, carsten ----- Original Message -----From: WILLIAM HARMS ; Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 7:16 PMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics They're both just "bang-sticks," but at least the B/B is well-made. Now, a Boss, HH, Woodward, Rigby, Purdy, Fabbri--now, THOSE are some guns! cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 8:01 PMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics Well, one is a gun and the other is just a bang stick. TY At 07:21 PM 3/2/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: Speaking of tradition. I used to be a teaching assistant for shooting sports in college. We had a really plain old Belgian Browning O/U skeet gun that we'd use if someone just couldn't get the hang of swinging through the bird. The balance of the gun was such that once you got it going it wanted to keep going, unlike the school's Remington 1100's. Brian----- Original Message -----From: "D.P. Van Burgel & K.J. Scott" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics I haven't actually used cane for the casting part of my 15 week middle school fly fishing activity, but I'll have to this year. Two weeks ago, when the head of the local TU was showing mydozen kids the various types of fly rods out there, he'd pull each rod out of the bag and lay it on the library table in front of them... something like : an old style fiberglass, followed by an early Sage, a nice Loomis, then abeautiful Winston, each with a matching reel (single action, then large arbor, etc). BUT, when he pulled out the bamboo rod and laid it with the others, there was a collective gasp (honest to goodness) and thenuninhibited 7th and 8th grade oooos and ahhhs. Of course, the first student to recover turned to me and asked if they were going to get to try that kind of rod, too [:-)] Kat /*************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from harms1@pa.net Sun Mar 3 18:42:15 2002 g240gF808329 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 18:42:15 -0600 Subject: Re: displacing nodes David, I wonder what might happen if you were to pop the strip you mentioned intothe oven at 225 degrees for half an hour. It sure would be great if therewere still no change. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: displacing nodes Hi all,I don't know if anyone else has tried this, but I thoughtyou mite like to know this. I soaked my strips for 48 hours, then planed using aMorgan Hand Mill. I decided to take a strip all the way to finaldimension and see how much shrinkage I would get. I wiped the strip down with a towel and started planing.I took my time, around 15 minutes, to get to the final dimension.The strip seemed fairly dry by then. I took measurements atdifferent locations and wrote them down. I came back out 24 hours later and measured again. Nochange! I came back out another 24 hours later (48hours total)and measured again. No change in my measurements. It looks to me, that the strips can't be swelling too muchwhen soaking, or shrinking much when drying. As the dimensionswere the same when I paned them wet and rechecked them48 hours after drying. Just thought you mite like to know. Have a good one, Dave L. check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Mar 3 18:45:49 2002 g240jm808572 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 18:45:48 -0600 Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:47:30 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: chat room Yeah I am,page seems slow to load then chat room can't be found,wonder if it will be up later tonight??Shawn Troutgetter@aol.com wrote: anyone having trouble getting Todd's chat room to load up?Mike Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Mar 3 18:52:50 2002 g240qn809165 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 18:52:49 -0600 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re Chatroom --------------CD144DE8D5786033E63264DE This must be why we can't getting and haven't heard from Todd, Hopeall's well in cyber-Todd- dom!Shawnhttp://www.bravenet.com/ --------------CD144DE8D5786033E63264DE Content-Base: "http://www.bravenet.com/"Content-Location: "http://www.bravenet.com/" Bravenet Web Services Service Temporarily Unavailable Dear Members and Visitors, On Saturday March 2, we detected an unauthorized breach into the Bravenet disabled outside access until we are confident that the integrity of theserver system has not been compromised. At this time, we cannot give you an exact time frame for when all serviceswill be restored to normal, as we not only are analyzing security issues, but we also want to ensure that there are no malicious filesor corrupt data on the servers when the system is round-the-clock task to review each system. Unfortuately, we expect this will take several days. While we understand that this inconveniences members and visitors alike, itis imperative that we are 100% confident that we can restore public access, and ensure normal and secure operation oncemore. We have experienced minimal data loss, but we are doing our best to recover Thank you for your understanding,we are working as fast as we can. Dave, Brad and the gang,Bravenet.com --------------CD144DE8D5786033E63264DE-- from flyfish@gbronline.com Sun Mar 3 19:09:08 2002 g24197810333 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:09:07 -0600 Subject: guide spacing Does anyone have a guide spacing for what I'm guessing is a 9043Granger? from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sun Mar 3 19:10:24 2002 g241AO810505 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:10:24 -0600 Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:10:18 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: displacing nodes Thread-Topic: displacing nodesThread-Index: AcHDDcQOczBrOy7+Eda4KABglOouXwACt6hA FILETIME=[5988C9A0:01C1C319] g241AO810506 Dave - Very interesting. At what point were the strips heat treated, if they were atall? Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: displacing nodes Hi all, I don't know if anyone else has tried this, but I thoughtyou mite like to know this. I soaked my strips for 48 hours, then planed using aMorgan Hand Mill. I decided to take a strip all the way to finaldimension and see how much shrinkage I would get. I wiped the strip down with a towel and started planing.I took my time, around 15 minutes, to get to the final dimension.The strip seemed fairly dry by then. I took measurements at different locations and wrote them down. I came back out 24 hours later and measured again. Nochange! I came back out another 24 hours later (48hours total)and measured again. No change in my measurements. It looks to me, that the strips can't be swelling too muchwhen soaking, or shrinking much when drying. As the dimensions were the same when I paned them wet and rechecked them48 hours after drying. Just thought you mite like to know. Have a good one, Dave L. check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sun Mar 3 19:10:25 2002 g241AO810507 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:10:24 -0600 Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:10:20 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: displacing nodes Thread-Topic: displacing nodesThread-Index: AcHDECo/czBujy7+Eda4KABglOouXwACLFlg FILETIME=[5A61C480:01C1C319] g241AO810510 Tony Spezio soaks his strips before heat treating, then rough planes, binds,and dries/heat treats. I'm trying this method and I'll try to remember tomeasure and weigh some of my strips before and after soaking. It would make sense that heat treated bamboo does not change dimensionmuch (at all?) when soaked, given what we know about the effects of heattreating. I'll bet that's not true for untempered bamboo but we'll see... Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: displacing nodes In a message dated 03/03/2002 6:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,jojo@ipa.net writes: Yes, I think the strips will shrink some when heat treating.I rough out my strips with my power mill and then heat treat.Then I soak them prior to the final planing. I was usually taking them down to around .020" oversize and then let them dry for a day or so, before taking them to final size.I decided to take them to final size, when wet and see whatdifference, if any, it would make. What I came up with was a surprise to me. I thought the stripswould shrink, at least a little. But, from what I can tell, they didn'tshrink at all, from wet to dry. So, from now on, I will plane all the way to final dimensionswith wet strips. It will be a lot faster than what I was doing. Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from jfreeman@cyberport.com Sun Mar 3 19:17:52 2002 g241Hp811042 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:17:51 -0600 , Subject: Re: Casting Clinics spam. How about some American guns? Parker, LC Smith, Ithaca, etc. I've got afeatherweight Smith that shoots a lot better than I do. Jim ----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Re: Casting Clinics They're both just "bang-sticks," but at least the B/B is well-made. Now, a Boss, HH, Woodward, Rigby, Purdy, Fabbri--now, THOSE are some guns! cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 8:01 PMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics Well, one is a gun and the other is just a bang stick. TY At 07:21 PM 3/2/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: Speaking of tradition. I used to be a teaching assistant for shootingsports in college. We had a really plain old Belgian Browning O/U skeet gun that we'd use if someone just couldn't get the hang of swinging through the bird. The balance of the gun was such that once you got it going it wanted to keep going, unlike the school's Remington 1100's. Brian----- Original Message -----From: "D.P. Van Burgel & K.J. Scott" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics I haven't actually used cane for the casting part of my 15 week middle school fly fishing activity, but I'll have to this year. Two weeks ago, when the head of the local TU was showing my dozen kids the various types of fly rods out there, he'd pull each rod out of the bag and lay it on the library table in front of them... something like : an old style fiberglass, followed by an early Sage, a nice Loomis, then abeautiful Winston, each with a matching reel (single action, then large arbor, etc). BUT, when he pulled out the bamboo rod and laid it with the others, there was a collective gasp (honest to goodness) and thenuninhibited 7th and 8th grade oooos and ahhhs. Of course, the first student to recover turned to me and asked if they were going to get to try that kind of rod, too [:-)] Kat /*************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from tedknott@cogeco.ca Sun Mar 3 19:30:26 2002 g241UP811613 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:30:25 -0600 ,, Subject: Re: displacing nodes Many years ago, when I first got into rod making, I measured several teststrips, baked at different temps, then re-measured when cool. I found up to10% shrinkage! Also accounted for why the butt sections were undersize inmy first couple of rods. from HalManas@aol.com Sun Mar 3 19:39:01 2002 g241d0812123 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:39:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Green Scott,Thanks!Hal from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Sun Mar 3 19:42:14 2002 g241gD812362 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:42:13 -0600 Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:42:04 -0800 Subject: Re: Orvis mighty-mite on ebay FILETIME=[C991FBA0:01C1C31D] I am not sure I spelled it right, but I have a question about this rod. Isthe cork reel seat mortised? Or are the slip rings slightly oversized? Wouldlove to get the reel seat diameter and I.D. ring dimensions on this type ofhandle. Other comments about the utility and longevity of this reel seatdesign would be welcome. Also, has anyone ever cast one of these? what did you think of the taper? Jeff Schaeffer from jojo@ipa.net Sun Mar 3 19:46:35 2002 g241kZ812604 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:46:35 -0600 helo=default) id 16hhYe-0008UD-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 20:46:33 -0500 Subject: Re: displacing nodes In some of the testing I've done the strips were completely saturated, thenallowed to return to their original weight,then heat treated, then re- immersed in water. They achieved the exact sameweight after heat treating as they did priorto it. Now, I could only measure in grams and grains, and I suspect that whenwe say that the heat treated cane can nolonger hold as much moisture that we are applying this on a molecular level,or bound moisture. Everything I've done ona "free" moisture level shows that heat treating has no effect. What I'vedone, however, is in no way conclusive.Other testing has shown a change in measurements prior to heat treatingand afterward of: width -- 4% -5%; depth -- 2% -6%, and length -- Tony Spezio soaks his strips before heat treating, then rough planes, binds,and dries/heat treats. I'm trying thismethod and I'll try to remember to measure and weigh some of my stripsbefore and after soaking. It would make sense that heat treated bamboo does not change dimensionmuch (at all?) when soaked, given what we knowabout the effects of heat treating. I'll bet that's not true for untemperedbamboo but we'll see... Barry In a message dated 03/03/2002 6:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,jojo@ipa.netwrites: Yes, I think the strips will shrink some when heat treating.I rough out my strips with my power mill and then heat treat.Then I soak them prior to the final planing. I was usually taking them down to around .020" oversize andthen let them dry for a day or so, before taking them to final size.I decided to take them to final size, when wet and see whatdifference, if any, it would make. What I came up with was a surprise to me. I thought the stripswould shrink, at least a little. But, from what I can tell, they didn'tshrink at all, from wet to dry. So, from now on, I will plane all the way to final dimensionswith wet strips. It will be a lot faster than what I was doing. Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Mar 3 19:50:02 2002 g241o2812865 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:50:02 -0600 Subject: RE: displacing nodes kurt.clement@flashmail.com,jojo@ipa.net, RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu Barry and Dave,I've been heat treating before soaking, then final planing and I, too, have found no shrinking after the strips dry. Of course, being an old f- -t, what do I know?Regards,Hank. from bennetts@cybermesa.com Sun Mar 3 19:50:27 2002 g241oP812922 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:50:25 -0600 Subject: Re: Green OK, how does this look? I always wondered about that green. My brother inlaw set up my system years ago. I'm not taken aback in the least. This list is great. First you answer myquestions, THEN you poke a little fun. Scott ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Green Scott, This happens every time someone uses a colored background for their postings, so don't be too taken aback by it. ;o) from jojo@ipa.net Sun Mar 3 20:07:35 2002 g2427Z813563 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:07:35 -0600 helo=default) id 16hht0-0003gw-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 21:07:34 -0500 Subject: RE: displacing nodes Dave, Hank, et al Given the contemporary thought that it is the moisture in the cane that setsup the conditions conducive to rods takinga set, not being as stiff, etc. do you guys who heat treat, then soak andplane, notice any adverse effects in yourrods? M-D Barry and Dave,I've been heat treating before soaking, then final planing and I, too,have found no shrinking after the strips dry. Of course, being an old f-- t,what do I know?Regards,Hank. from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Sun Mar 3 20:12:02 2002 g242C2813831 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:12:02 -0600 g242FCL08934; Subject: Re: Re Chatroom Bravenet Web ServicesDon't know if it is the reason, but it's been =snowing over here in west Michigan like mad. Cable went out for a =while. Maybe the chat room is having a snow day. Brian This must be why we can't getting and haven't heard from Todd, Hopeall's well in cyber-Todd- dom!Shawnhttp://www.bravenet.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------=----- Dear Members and Visitors, On Saturday March 2, we detected an unauthorized =breach into the Bravenet server system. As a result, we have temporaily =disabled outside access until we are confident that the integrity of the =server system has not been compromised. At this time, we cannot give you an exact time frame = analyzing security issues, but we also want to ensure that there are no =malicious files or corrupt data on the servers when the system is =restored. As our server network is very large, it will be an enormous, =round-the-clock task to review each system. Unfortuately, we expect this =will take several days. While we understand that this inconveniences members =and visitors alike, it is imperative that we are 100% confident that we =can restore public access, and ensure normal and secure operation once =more. We have experienced minimal data loss, but we are =doing our best to recover as much as we possibly can. We have put =together a page of common questions and a way to contact us here: FAQ =and Contact Page Thank you for your understanding,we are working as fast as we can. Dave, Brad and the gang,Bravenet.com Bravenet Web Services Don't know if it is the reason, but = Brian ----- Original Message ----- Shawn Pineo = Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 = PMSubject: Re Chatroom This must be why we can't getting and haven't heard = =cyber-Todd- Shawnhttp://www.bravenet.com/ Service Temporarily = Dear Members and = Saturday March 2, we detected an unauthorized breach = temporaily disabled outside access until we are = that the integrity of the server system has not been = compromised.At this time, we cannot give you = exact time frame for when all services will be = normal, as we not only are analyzing security = also want to ensure that there are no malicious = be an enormous, round-the-clock task to review each = days.While we understand that this = members and visitors alike, it is imperative that we = 100% confident that we can restore public access, = normal and secure operation once more.We = experienced minimal data loss, but we are doing our = together a page of common questions and a way to = PageThank you for your = working as fast as we can.Dave, Brad and the = =gang,Bravenet.com from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Sun Mar 3 20:17:45 2002 g242Hi814163 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:17:44 -0600 g242KuL09135; Subject: Re: displacing nodes SOAK FIRST -- Then do the nodes -- rough plane -- and THEN heat 'em up. And I put the finished strips in the oven at 150 F or so for a while beforeI go to glue up now. What I usually do is turn the oven on, let it heat up,put the strips in, wait for the thing to stabilize again, unplug the ovenand go to bed. Then I glue the nest day. Seems to help where set isinvolved. Brian ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: displacing nodes Dave, Hank, et al Given the contemporary thought that it is the moisture in the cane that sets up the conditions conducive to rods taking a set, not being as stiff, etc. do you guys who heat treat, then soak and plane, notice any adverse effects in your rods? M-D From: Barry and Dave,I've been heat treating before soaking, then final planing and I, too, have found no shrinking after the strips dry. Of course, being an old f--t, what do I know?Regards,Hank. from Troutgetter@aol.com Sun Mar 3 20:18:23 2002 g242IM814264 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:18:22 -0600 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:18:12 -0500 Subject: Fwd: PVC rod tubes? Oh Yea! Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ Full-name: Troutgetter Subject: Re: PVC rod tubes? Oh Yea! Hi Shawn,Thanks for the info about Bravenet.I would normally agree with Harry about $65.00 being to much for analuminum tube.However, they come with a solid machined brass cap, collar and bottom, and really have a great "heft" to them and when the tube is anodized bronze and include engraving on the cap and suddenly ... whola!(sp?) If a customer wants to shell out the extra cash for this tube, I won't argue much, and then I'll recommend he buy one of Shawn's rod tube bags and sell that to the guy too! Because he's gonna need it! But they DO look classy! (I think!)Mike Shay In a message dated 3/3/2002 3:41:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca writes: HMMMMM, I can see a point here, I thought I was getting carried away when I started making a Nova Scotia Tartan rod bag AND aNova Scotia Tartan bag for the $100+ aluminum rod tubes I use. I agree $100 is allot for a rod tube, just crazy I guess, oh by the way those ones are almost bomb proof! Shawn Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ Hi Shawn,Thanks for the info about Bravenet.I would normally agree with Harry about $65.00 being to much for analuminum tube.However, they come with a solid machined brass cap, collar and bottom, andreally have a great "heft" to them and when the tube is anodized bronze andinclude engraving on the cap and suddenly ... whola!(sp?) If a customer wantsto shell out the extra cash for this tube, I won't argue much, and then I'llrecommend he buy one of Shawn's rod tube bags and sell that to the guy too!Because he's gonna need it! But they DO look classy! (I think!)Mike Shay In a message dated 3/3/2002 3:41:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca writes: HMMMMM, see a point here, I thought I was getting carried away when I started makinga Nova Scotia Tartan rod bag AND a Nova Scotia Tartanbag for the $100+ aluminum rod tubes I use. is allot for a rod tube, just crazy I guess, oh by the way those ones arealmost bomb proof! Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Sun Mar 3 20:20:24 2002 g242KN814587 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:20:23 -0600 g242NZL09228; Subject: Re: displacing nodes Sorry, didn't read Hank's post. But he's an old farmer and a Virginian.He's can't be expected to follow conventions. And he builds nice fly rods,too. Brian ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: displacing nodes Dave, Hank, et al Given the contemporary thought that it is the moisture in the cane that sets up the conditions conducive to rods taking a set, not being as stiff, etc. do you guys who heat treat, then soak and plane, notice any adverse effects in your rods? M-D From: Barry and Dave,I've been heat treating before soaking, then final planing and I, too, have found no shrinking after the strips dry. Of course, being an old f--t, what do I know?Regards,Hank. from Grnmtrds@aol.com Sun Mar 3 20:30:02 2002 g242U1815076 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:30:01 -0600 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:29:53 -0500 Subject: GREEN Remember, If you ain't handsome you got to be handy. Red Green from jojo@ipa.net Sun Mar 3 20:35:53 2002 g242Zr815457 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:35:53 -0600 helo=default) id 16hiKN-0006Ad-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 21:35:51 -0500 Subject: Re: GREEN Hmmm, and some of us are both. M-D Remember, If you ain't handsome you got to be handy. Red Green from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 20:50:18 2002 g242oI815950 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:50:18 -0600 Sun, 03 Mar 2002 18:50:17 PST Subject: florida letme hear from you. what's been going on? timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseballhttp://sports.yahoo.com from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Mar 3 20:58:16 2002 g242wF816294 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:58:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Orvis mighty-mite on ebay In a message dated 3/4/2 1:42:45 AM, jsschaeffer@hotmail.com writes: I have only cast one of them. It was a straight line taper and was too stiff at the tip. I think it was really a spin rod taper with a fly rod grip installed. I used the taper as the basis for the 5 1/2' taper at the rodmakers site. I stretched it 6 inches and revised the tip to somethingmore suitable for a fly rod. A lot of people like it. To be fair, I have heard of Mighty Mites that cast well, so I suspect the folks at Orvis tended to use what was available for a blank when making this rod. from jojo@ipa.net Sun Mar 3 21:01:03 2002 g24313816559 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:01:03 -0600 helo=default) id 16hiik-0000ha-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 03 Mar 2002 22:01:02 -0500 Subject: Re: florida Timothy, Could you be a little less cryptic? M-D letme hear from you. what's been going on? timothy ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe from ttalsma@macatawa.org Sun Mar 3 21:13:21 2002 g243DJ818271 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:13:19 -0600 Subject: Chat room at the Bamboo Tips Archive. All, I just found out that there was a server breach detected at the companywhere the chat room is hosted. I'm not sure when their server will beback up, but I'll let everyone know. DANG!!!! And I was staying up toget in there tonight. Sorry for any problems that this has caused anyone. Let's shoot forWednesday night like Bob Maulucci suggested. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business home: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Rodmaking Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Rodmaking Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/index.htmgenealogy home page: Under Construction from rextutor@yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 21:17:24 2002 g243HO818625 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:17:24 -0600 03 Mar 2002 19:17:23 PST Subject: Re: Chat room at the Bamboo Tips Archive. "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" What time Wednesday ?TIA--- Todd Talsma wrote: All, I just found out that there was a server breachdetected at the companywhere the chat room is hosted. I'm not sure whentheir server will beback up, but I'll let everyone know. DANG!!!! AndI was staying up toget in there tonight. Sorry for any problems that this has caused anyone. Let's shoot forWednesday night like Bob Maulucci suggested. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business home: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Rodmaking Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Rodmaking Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/index.htmgenealogy home page: Under Construction __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseballhttp://sports.yahoo.com from dybam@oct.net Sun Mar 3 21:26:32 2002 g243QW819090 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:26:32 -0600 Subject: Re: displacing nodes Communications, Inc. Dave,Are the strips that much easier to plane when wet?Also is there lessproblems with chinking and gouging of the strips?Mark----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: displacing nodes Hi all,I don't know if anyone else has tried this, but I thoughtyou mite like to know this. I soaked my strips for 48 hours, then planed using aMorgan Hand Mill. I decided to take a strip all the way to finaldimension and see how much shrinkage I would get. I wiped the strip down with a towel and started planing.I took my time, around 15 minutes, to get to the final dimension.The strip seemed fairly dry by then. I took measurements atdifferent locations and wrote them down. I came back out 24 hours later and measured again. Nochange! I came back out another 24 hours later (48hours total)and measured again. No change in my measurements. It looks to me, that the strips can't be swelling too muchwhen soaking, or shrinking much when drying. As the dimensionswere the same when I paned them wet and rechecked them48 hours after drying. Just thought you mite like to know. Have a good one, Dave L. check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from ajthramer@hotmail.com Mon Mar 4 02:23:20 2002 g248NJ824755 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 02:23:19 -0600 Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:23:13 -0800 Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:23:13 GMT dpvbkjs@somtel.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Casting Clinics FILETIME=[D3F379B0:01C1C355] Hmmm , pretty fond of my Berreta O/U. It did cost more than my beat up old truck so you know that I have my priorities [:)] A.J. From: "WILLIAM HARMS" , Subject: Re: Casting ClinicsDate: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:16:40 -0500 They're both just "bang-sticks," but at least the B/B is well-made. Now, aBoss, HH, Woodward, Rigby, Purdy, Fabbri--now, THOSE are some guns! cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 8:01 PMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics Well, one is a gun and the other is just a bang stick. TY At 07:21 PM 3/2/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: Speaking of tradition. I used to be a teaching assistant for shootingsports in college. We had a really plain old Belgian Browning O/U skeetgun that we'd use if someone just couldn't get the hang of swinging through the bird. The balance of the gun was such that once you got it going it wanted to keep going, unlike the school's Remington 1100's. Brian----- Original Message -----From: "D.P. Van Burgel & K.J. Scott" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics I haven't actually used cane for the casting part of my 15 week middle school fly fishing activity, but I'll have to this year. Two weeks ago, when the head of the local TU was showing my dozen kidsthe various types of fly rods out there, he'd pull each rod out of the bagand lay it on the library table in front of them... something like : an old style fiberglass, followed by an early Sage, a nice Loomis, then abeautiful Winston, each with a matching reel (single action, then large arbor, etc). BUT, when he pulled out the bamboo rod and laid it withthe others, there was a collective gasp (honest to goodness) and thenuninhibited 7th and 8th grade oooos and ahhhs. Of course, the first student to recover turned to me and asked if they were going to get to try that kind of rod, too [:-)] Kat /*************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Mar 4 04:33:12 2002 g24AXB825977 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 04:33:11 -0600 g24AWqH65595; Subject: Re: Double Taper Dennis In those days, there were giants upon the earth. Peter from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Mar 4 04:50:53 2002 g24Aop826314 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 04:50:51 -0600 g24Aogt69746; Subject: Re: Casting Clinics Bill I shoot quail and ducks, and occasionally partridge, with a Nitro- proofedDamascus-barrelled Stephen Grant best London sidelock ejector. It was left to me years ago by a good old friend, who bought it in the UKwhen he was there during WW2; he flew a Lancaster for the famous "DamBuster" squadron of the RAF. It is a gun of amazing quality, and is an absolute delight to shoot. Thereis a point here, though, that is worth making apropos bamboo rods. I shot pretty serious trap, including Olympic Trench, for some years, and Iwas pretty good at it too. None of your wussy Vandalia stuff![:-)] I would no more have dreamed of trying to do it with the Grant than Iwould have thought of riding bare-arsed to Bourke on a razor blade. Horses for courses. Same with fishing rods. Peter from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Mar 4 04:56:04 2002 g24Au3826560 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 04:56:03 -0600 g24Atst70845; Subject: Re: Casting Clinics In defense of the Browning, in all grades - I know trapshooters who ahve putover a quarter of a million trap shells through an A-grade Browning, and whocannot recall ever having had a malfunction called against them because ofthe gun. You could never call them classy, although in the higher grades they areflashy enough, but Heavens ,they do shoot well! Peter from horsesho@ptd.net Mon Mar 4 05:09:13 2002 g24B9D826899 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 05:09:13 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4187. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.554274 secs); 04 Mar 2002 11:05:45 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Orvis mighty-mite on ebay Hi Tom, I have a Mitey Mite but mine is marked for a #4 line. I like it but rather than a midge rod it's more a midget trout rod. Need some line out to get it to cast properly. I always thought the taper was a spin rod taper but after miking Orvis's 5' Superlight spin I found out the Mitey Mite is MUCH lighter. I also have an Orvis 5'9" Ultralight Fly rod that is a much nicer rod. Interestingly that rod is the marriage of a Mitey Mite butt section and a 61/2' Deluxe tip section. Nice rod!.Best, Marty TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 3/4/2 1:42:45 AM, jsschaeffer@hotmail.com writes: I have only cast one of them. It was a straight line taper and was too stiff at the tip. I think it was really a spin rod taper with a fly rod grip installed. I used the taper as the basis for the 5 1/2' taper at the rodmakers site. I stretched it 6 inches and revised the tip to somethingmore suitable for a fly rod. A lot of people like it. To be fair, I have heard of Mighty Mites that cast well, so I suspect the folks at Orvis tended to use what was available for a blank when making this rod. from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Mar 4 05:10:03 2002 g24BA1827057 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 05:10:02 -0600 g24B9t373590; Subject: Re: chat room me too peter from horsesho@ptd.net Mon Mar 4 05:22:22 2002 g24BMM827479 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 05:22:22 -0600 by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4187. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.874734 secs); 04 Mar 2002 11:22:21 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Orvis mighty-mite on ebay Jeff, Grip length 4 1/4", Seat 3 1/4" and is mortied eliptically, Slide ring ID .700 +or-. Grip tapers from the blank (Philippe style) to .975" at the center point to .800 at the end. A short fat grip. Marty Jeff Schaeffer wrote: I am not sure I spelled it right, but I have a question about this rod. Isthe cork reel seat mortised? Or are the slip rings slightly oversized? Wouldlove to get the reel seat diameter and I.D. ring dimensions on this type ofhandle. Other comments about the utility and longevity of this reel seatdesign would be welcome. Also, has anyone ever cast one of these? what did you think of the taper? Jeff Schaeffer from dnorl@qwest.net Mon Mar 4 06:03:56 2002 g24C3t828126 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 06:03:55 -0600 (63.228.45.135) bdcbfr@chartermi.net, dpvbkjs@somtel.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Casting Clinics I have a 16 ga. side by side Gustaf Genchow that I have shot for 45 years.double triggers, splinter fore-end straight stock.Be lost without it.If God wanted you to shot over and unders he'd have stacked your eyes.----- Original Message----- ; bdcbfr@chartermi.net ;dpvbkjs@somtel.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Casting Clinics Hmmm , pretty fond of my Berreta O/U. It did cost more than my beat upoldtruck so you know that I have my priorities [:)] A.J. From: "WILLIAM HARMS" , Subject: Re: Casting ClinicsDate: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:16:40 -0500 They're both just "bang-sticks," but at least the B/B is well-made. Now, a Boss, HH, Woodward, Rigby, Purdy, Fabbri--now, THOSE are some guns! cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 8:01 PMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics Well, one is a gun and the other is just a bang stick. TY At 07:21 PM 3/2/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: Speaking of tradition. I used to be a teaching assistant for shootingsports in college. We had a really plain old Belgian Browning O/U skeetgun that we'd use if someone just couldn't get the hang of swinging through the bird. The balance of the gun was such that once you got it going it wanted to keep going, unlike the school's Remington 1100's. Brian----- Original Message -----From: "D.P. Van Burgel & K.J. Scott" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics I haven't actually used cane for the casting part of my 15 week middle school fly fishing activity, but I'll have to this year. Two weeks ago, when the head of the local TU was showing mydozen kidsthe various types of fly rods out there, he'd pull each rod out of the bagand lay it on the library table in front of them... something like : an old style fiberglass, followed by an early Sage, a nice Loomis, then abeautiful Winston, each with a matching reel (single action, then large arbor, etc). BUT, when he pulled out the bamboo rod and laid it withthe others, there was a collective gasp (honest to goodness) and thenuninhibited 7th and 8th grade oooos and ahhhs. Of course, the first student to recover turned to me and asked if they were going to get to try that kind of rod, too [:-)] Kat /************************************************************************* / AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /************************************************************************* / _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.http://www.hotmail.com from ttalsma@macatawa.org Mon Mar 4 07:22:44 2002 g24DMh829530 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:22:43 -0600 id ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:15:30 -0500 id F563CF74; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:15:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Chat room at the Bamboo Tips Archive. Rex, I think (Bob M. correct me here) that it was going to be at 10:00 pmEastern time. I'm going to be looking at some alternatives to the chat service, justto get us through the meantime. Rex Tutor wrote: What time Wednesday ?TIA--- Todd Talsma wrote: All, I just found out that there was a server breachdetected at the companywhere the chat room is hosted. I'm not sure whentheir server will beback up, but I'll let everyone know. DANG!!!! AndI was staying up toget in there tonight. Sorry for any problems that this has caused anyone.Let's shoot forWednesday night like Bob Maulucci suggested. --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business home:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Rodmaking Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Rodmaking Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/index.htmgenealogy home page: Under Construction __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseballhttp://sports.yahoo.com -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Mar 4 07:41:00 2002 Received: from imo- g24Df0800331 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id 1.172.47af1f1 (3702); Mon, 4 Mar Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:40:45 EST FISHWOOL@aol.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Daveand Bill, I've been heating strips at 225 deg. F. for 30 min., then 325 deg. F. , ,References: Subject: Re: Casting rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Jim. Parker built somebeautiful guns, but nearly all are extremely heavy for field use--with hugebeavertails and pistol grips. They were all reliable guns, but nowadays areabsolutely wildly overpriced. Very, very few of even the best Parkers wereas nicely fit and finished (particularly the barrels) as an ordinary Birminghamor London SxS. Same thing with L.C. Smith, Fox and Ithaca Lefever guns.None of these latter makers gained the reputation of the Parkers, eventhough there has never been a good reason for that. (In fact, Foxes built upto 1915 or so, may have been better than the Parkers). Fox guns are utterlyreliable, as are the NIDs, while the LC Smiths can sometimes be a littlequirky, and all but the NIDs offered beautiful custom work. If you can find anAmerican gun in 16 or 20 guage with 26-28 inch barrels with splinter forendand straight grip (one that's not "doglegged" with excessive drop), you'll verylikely have a superb upland game gun. American gunmakers sought adifferent clientele with different shooting habits from those in England andEurope, and the guns, of course, reflect that. American guns run the gamut from Edsels to Eldorados, while English guns typically run the gamut fromAustin Healys to Aston-Martins. That said, there's not a reason in the worldto think that a really nice American gun won't serve you every bit as well inall respects as a "London best." Just as a nice Granger may suit you everybit as well as the finest Garrison, Payne, Dickerson and so forth. (Had tokeep this thread about fly rods). Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: ; ; ;Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 9:06 PMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics How about some American guns? Parker, LC Smith, Ithaca, etc. I've got afeatherweight Smith that shoots a lot better than I do. Jim ----- Original Message -----From: "WILLIAM HARMS" ; Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 10:16 AMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics They're both just "bang-sticks," but at least the B/B is well-made. Now, a Boss, HH, Woodward, Rigby, Purdy, Fabbri--now, THOSE are some guns! cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 8:01 PMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics Well, one is a gun and the other is just a bang stick. TY At 07:21 PM 3/2/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: Speaking of tradition. I used to be a teaching assistant for shooting sports in college. We had a really plain old Belgian Browning O/U skeet gun that we'd use if someone just couldn't get the hang of swinging through the bird. The balance of the gun was such that once you got it going it wanted to keep going, unlike the school's Remington 1100's. Brian----- Original Message -----From: "D.P. Van Burgel & K.J. Scott" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics I haven't actually used cane for the casting part of my 15 week middle school fly fishing activity, but I'll have to this year. Two weeks ago, when the head of the local TU was showing mydozen kids the various types of fly rods out there, he'd pull each rod out of the bag and lay it on the library table in front of them... something like : an old style fiberglass, followed by an early Sage, a nice Loomis, then abeautiful Winston, each with a matching reel (single action, then large arbor, etc). BUT, when he pulled out the bamboo rod and laid it with the others, there was a collective gasp (honest to goodness) and thenuninhibited 7th and 8th grade oooos and ahhhs. Of course, the first student to recover turned to me and asked if they were going to get to try that kind of rod, too [:-)] Kat /*************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /*************************************************************************/ from harms1@pa.net Mon Mar 4 09:01:07 2002 g24F16803984 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:01:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Casting Clinics Amen! And you can still have a custom-built O/U built for you in Belgium,if you feel like spending the cash. Even so, the tag will be about half thecost of a fine Boss. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Casting Clinics In defense of the Browning, in all grades - I know trapshooters who ahve put over a quarter of a million trap shells through an A-grade Browning, and who cannot recall ever having had a malfunction called against them because of the gun. You could never call them classy, although in the higher grades they areflashy enough, but Heavens ,they do shoot well! Peter from harms1@pa.net Mon Mar 4 09:06:13 2002 g24F6C804527 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:06:13 -0600 , , Subject: Re: Casting Clinics I agree. Ain't nothing like a fine, little SxS for quick handling in thefield and drop-dead class! Clay targets are a different matter, but I stillprefer my SxS, just 'cause I like 'em. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- ; ; Subject: Re: Casting Clinics I have a 16 ga. side by side Gustaf Genchow that I have shot for 45 years.double triggers, splinter fore-end straight stock.Be lost without it.If God wanted you to shot over and unders he'd have stacked your eyes.----- Original Message-----From: Allen Thramer ; bdcbfr@chartermi.net ;dpvbkjs@somtel.com ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Monday, March 04, 2002 2:24 AMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics Hmmm , pretty fond of my Berreta O/U. It did cost more than my beat up old truck so you know that I have my priorities [:)] A.J. From: "WILLIAM HARMS" , Subject: Re: Casting ClinicsDate: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:16:40 -0500 They're both just "bang-sticks," but at least the B/B is well-made. Now, a Boss, HH, Woodward, Rigby, Purdy, Fabbri--now, THOSE are some guns! cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 8:01 PMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics Well, one is a gun and the other is just a bang stick. TY At 07:21 PM 3/2/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: Speaking of tradition. I used to be a teaching assistant for shooting sports in college. We had a really plain old Belgian Browning O/U skeetgun that we'd use if someone just couldn't get the hang of swinging through the bird. The balance of the gun was such that once you got it going it wanted to keep going, unlike the school's Remington 1100's. Brian----- Original Message -----From: "D.P. Van Burgel & K.J. Scott" Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:24 AMSubject: Re: Casting Clinics I haven't actually used cane for the casting part of my 15 week middle school fly fishing activity, but I'll have to this year. Two weeks ago, when the head of the local TU was showing mydozen kidsthe various types of fly rods out there, he'd pull each rod out of the bagand lay it on the library table in front of them... something like : an old style fiberglass, followed by an early Sage, a nice Loomis, then a beautiful Winston, each with a matching reel (single action, then large arbor, etc). BUT, when he pulled out the bamboo rod and laid it withthe others, there was a collective gasp (honest to goodness) and thenuninhibited 7th and 8th grade oooos and ahhhs. Of course, the first student to recover turned to me and asked if they were going to get to try that kind of rod, too [:-)] Kat /************************************************************************* / AV YoungVisit my web site at:"http://www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html" Yea, though I walk in the river of very shallow depth I fear no failure, My rod and my reel they comfort me. /************************************************************************* / _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.http://www.hotmail.com from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Mon Mar 4 09:55:37 2002 g24Ftb809173 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:55:37 -0600 JAA02946 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:55:36 -0600 HAA01954 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:55:35 -0800 g24Ftt108470 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:55:55 -0800 (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:55:28 -0800 Subject: crud mail today I started getting x rated email here at work, I guess it's my turnnow! How do I get off their email list? Have windows 200 and MS outlook foremail. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from KyleDruey@aol.com Mon Mar 4 09:56:37 2002 g24Fua809306 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:56:36 -0600 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:56:15 -0500 0304105615; Mon, 04 Mar 2002 10:56:15 -0500 Subject: Garrison Reel Seat List, Can the cap be glued directly to a cork reel seat on a Garrison style all corkcap and ring reel seat? Any other insights needed when building this style ofreel seat? Thanks for your help, Kyle from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 10:35:50 2002 g24GZo812103 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:35:50 -0600 Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:35:49 PST Subject: Re: displacing nodes RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu Dave, at 48 hours, its likely that the strip isn'tgetting soaked all the way through and planning tofinal actually takes you past the soaked cane intomostly dry. This is good to know. Perhaps soaking for3 to 4 days for handmill users is not in our bestinterest. When doing the final planning I don't soak,only soak when I'm roughing, but I'm starting torethink this based on what you've learned. Bill W. --- LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: Hi all, I don't know if anyone else hastried this, but I thoughtyou mite like to know this. I soaked my strips for 48 hours,then planed using aMorgan Hand Mill. I decided to take a strip allthe way to finaldimension and see how much shrinkage I would get. I wiped the strip down with a toweland started planing.I took my time, around 15 minutes, to get to thefinal dimension.The strip seemed fairly dry by then. I tookmeasurements at different locations and wrote them down. I came back out 24 hours later andmeasured again. Nochange! I came back out another 24 hours later(48hours total)and measured again. No change in mymeasurements. It looks to me, that the strips can'tbe swelling too muchwhen soaking, or shrinking much when drying. Asthe dimensions were the same when I paned them wet and recheckedthem48 hours after drying. Just thought you mite like to know. Have a good one, Dave L. check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site-http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseballhttp://sports.yahoo.com from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Mon Mar 4 13:47:04 2002 g24Jl4822883 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:47:04 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:10:02 -0600 Subject: RE: Casting Clinics Yep, I was a little apprehensive about it at first, but I just stood rightnext to the student casting it the ENTIRE time. This is my baby.... I am thinking that I might need to make about six "no frills" rods, that arenice, but with an easy-casting taper. I would dedicate these rods tocasting classes, and not worry too much about the extreme fine cosmetics.It would also be a good way to make lots of rods and not get hung up on eachone being the ultimate. Any good advice? Gotta get me a beveller made.....TAM -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: RE: Casting Clinics To all.Using a moderate action cane rod in a beginners' casting clinic makesall the difference over a graphite (you'll excuse the word). The student "feels" the rod action more readily. My wife doesn't like to see me use my cane rods Regards,Hank. from fiveside@net-gate.com Mon Mar 4 14:35:25 2002 g24KZP826543 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 14:35:25 -0600 Subject: Off The Subject To the List?While we are off the subject, I've used a matched set of 12 and 20 Ga. =Model 12's for over 50 years and see no need to change. Over that period =I've enjoyed the company of 8 black Labs and again see no need to =change. Bill To the List? matched set of 12 and 20 Ga. Model 12's for over 50 years and see no = change. Over that period I've enjoyed the company of 8 black Labs and = from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Mar 4 15:00:44 2002 g24L0h828619 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:00:43 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Feb Overmywaders Contest Winner Gerald Johnson of Laramie, WY won the RushRiverRods NS rod hardware. Thanks to Tony Larson for contributing the prize. The correct answer to "Who wrote of the Golden Witch streamer fly that it is "Strictly for decorating ladies' hats or possibly mens' hats, etc.."? is George Leonard Herter. He wrote this in his "Professional Fly Thing, Spinning and Tackle Making Manual".-- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ >Fromrcurry@ttlc.net Mon Mar 4 15:16:52 2002 Received: from mail.ttlc.net 16:20:58 -0500 From: Reed Curry User-Agent:Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 , rod Subject: Re: Feb Overmywaders Contest Winner References: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Oops! That's "Fly Tying". Bestregards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ Miller, Troy wrote: Is that the name of the book? Professional Fly Thing? That is a prettystrange title.... -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 3:05 PM Subject: Feb Overmywaders Contest Winner Gerald Johnson of Laramie, WY won the RushRiverRods NS rod hardware. Thanks to Tony Larson for contributing the prize. The correct answer to "Who wrote of the Golden Witch streamer fly that it is "Strictly for decorating ladies' hats or possibly mens' hats, etc.."? is George Leonard Herter. He wrote this in his "Professional Fly Thing, Spinning and Tackle Making Manual". -- > from bob@downandacross.com Mon Mar 4 15:17:41 2002 Received: from g24LHe801896 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 From: "Bob Maulucci" Subject: RE: Garrison Reel Seat Date: Mon, 4Mar 2002 16:17:19 -0500 Message-ID: Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I would drill through and pinit. Actually, it is not a bad idea on any reel seat cap. -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of KyleDruey@aol.com Sent: Monday, Garrison Reel Seat List, Can the cap be glued directly to a cork reel seat on aGarrison style all cork cap and ring reel seat? Any other insights neededwhen building this style of reel seat? Thanks for your help, Kyle >Frombob@downandacross.com Mon Mar 4 15:20:29 2002 Received: from g24LKS802782 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 Cc: "Rodmakers" Subject: RE: Casting Clinics Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:20:15 -0500 Message- Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X- Importance: Normal Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Try the Garrison based "easycast" taper from Bob Milward's book. I have not made that one next, buteverything that Bob has said otherwise about the tapers in his book is true.That 6'6" taper is absloutely fantastic. I think the Driggs would be anothervery easy casting taper in my opinion. Best regards, Bob -----Original rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of Miller, Troy Sent: Monday, March Casting Clinics Yep, I was a little apprehensive about it at first, but I juststood right next to the student casting it the ENTIRE time. This is my baby....I am thinking that I might need to make about six "no frills" rods, that arenice, but with an easy-casting taper. I would dedicate these rods to castingclasses, and not worry too much about the extreme fine cosmetics. It wouldalso be a good way to make lots of rods and not get hung up on each onebeing the ultimate. Any good advice? Gotta get me a beveller made..... TAM from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Mon Mar 4 15:47:25 2002 Received: g24LlO805726 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) by Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 4 Mar 200215:32:02 -0600 Message-ID:From: "Miller, Troy" Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN You know, I have never castthe Driggs, that I can recall. But EVERYONE who speaks of it has nothing butpraise for the taper. I will have to make one of those, early on and see how Ilike it. Or, better yet, someone bring one to Conclave! Now there is an idea.How about everyone bring a copy of their very favorite taper, and we canadmire how the finest designs perform? TAM -----Original Message----- From: Rodmakers Subject: RE: Casting Clinics Try the Garrison based "easy cast"taper from Bob Milward's book. I have not made that one next, but everythingthat Bob has said otherwise about the tapers in his book is true. That 6'6"taper is absloutely fantastic. I think the Driggs would be another very easycasting taper in my opinion. Best regards, Bob >FromChristopherO@epicimaging.com Mon Mar 4 16:00:52 2002 Received: fromepic01.epic.local (mail.epicrad.com [208.161.98.101] (may be forged)) by g24M0p806608 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:56:30 -0800 From: KyleDruey@aol.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: RE: Garrison Reel rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN If you look in garrison's book,he glued a wooden plug to the end of the rod shaft, turned it to size on thelathe, and then glued the cap to this wood ring, not the cork (to get a goodsolid connection between the rodshaft and the reel foot). Chris. List, Can thecap be glued directly to a cork reel seat on a Garrison style all cork cap andring reel seat? Any other insights needed when building this style of reelseat? Thanks for your help, Kyle > from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Mon Mar 416:39:36 2002 Received: from proxy1-grandhaven0.chartermi.net References:Subject: Re: Off The bdcbfr@chartermi.net Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This "corn shuckers" make great trap guns, are really good duck and = goose 04, 2002 3:33 PM Subject: Off The Subject To the List? While we are off thesubject, I've used a matched set of 12 and 20 = Ga. Model 12's for over 50years and see no need to change. Over that = period I've enjoyed thecompany of 8 black Labs and again see no need to = change. Bill ------ Model 12 "corn To the List? Bill ------ tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 17:36:15 2002 Received: from g24NaE811168 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 Received: from [12.221.112.197] by web11207.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Mar bdcbfr@chartermi.net, fiveside@net-gate.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN sincewe are all talking about double guns, does anyone have a bernadeli or opinionabout them? timothy --- "Brian D. Creek" wrote: Model 12 "corn shuckers" make great trap guns, arereally good duck and goose guns, and seem to lastforever. Brian----- Original Message ----- From: William R. Fink Subject: Off The Subject To the List?While we are off the subject, I've used amatched set of 12 and 20 Ga. Model 12's for over 50years and see no need to change. Over that periodI've enjoyed the company of 8 black Labs and againsee no need to change. Bill ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseballhttp://sports.yahoo.com from blitzenrods@yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 19:39:18 2002 g251dC814258 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:39:17 -0600 Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:39:05 PST Subject: Re: Off The Subject I've been regularly visiting a Vincenzo BernardelliRoma 6e at a local gunshop for about 3 yrs. EverytimeI talk myself into buying her, I realize my Fulton andmy Union Armera (Grulla) will do everything I need. rod so I could flaunt it, and so it sits therebeckoning to me month after month. It's probably 20 yrs. old, but new in the case. V.Bernardelli's have sideplates but are boxlocks and notsidelocks, machined engraving (I'm pretty sure)although it is complex and beautiful. Splinterforearms and English stocks in figured walnut andtight engraving. I've corresponded with a few long time V. BernardelliRoma owners in my research and they all speakfavorably of them as outlasting other more "respected"doubles. No failures and high quality. I think thebetter Roma's are currently valued in the $1800-$2100range depending of course on condition and grade. There is also a P. Bernardelli that is a lower end gunimported under names like "Gamecock" I think. I don'tthink these guns have the fit and finish that theVincenzo guns do and are valued lower accordingly. Anyway, there are some bulletin board sites that cangive you a wealth of information on all your doublegun inquiries. www.gunshop.com andwww.shootingsportsmen.com are two that I know of. Alot of experts visit these sites and are willing toshare information. Good luck. --- timothy troester wrote: since we are all talking about double guns, doesanyone have a bernadeli or opinion about them? timothy --- "Brian D. Creek" wrote: Model 12 "corn shuckers" make great trap guns, arereally good duck and goose guns, and seem to lastforever. Brian----- Original Message ----- From: William R. Fink 3:33 PMSubject: Off The Subject To the List?While we are off the subject, I've used amatched set of 12 and 20 Ga. Model 12's for over 50 years and see no need to change. Over that periodI've enjoyed the company of 8 black Labs and againsee no need to change. Bill ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseballhttp://sports.yahoo.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseballhttp://sports.yahoo.com from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Mar 4 19:45:05 2002 g251j3814520 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:45:03 -0600 Subject: RE: RE: Casting Clinics Troy,I would think a 5 wgt. straight taper would do well as a beginner's rod. Let me know how they turn out. Hank. from LECLAIR123@aol.com Mon Mar 4 19:51:06 2002 g251p4814782 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:51:05 -0600 Subject: Re: displacing nodes RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu In a message dated 03/03/2002 8:10:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, KlingB@health.missouri.edu writes: I rough mill the strips, then heat treat, then soak for a day ortwo, then final plane them. Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Mon Mar 4 19:51:52 2002 g251po814927 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:51:50 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:36:42 -0600 Subject: RE: RE: Casting Clinics Anybody got a "for instance" for this taper virgin? Thanks -- TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: RE: RE: Casting Clinics Troy,I would think a 5 wgt. straight taper would do well as a beginner's rod. Let me know how they turn out. Hank. from LECLAIR123@aol.com Mon Mar 4 20:06:24 2002 g2526M815373 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:06:22 -0600 Subject: Re: displacing nodes In a message dated 03/03/2002 9:08:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,jojo@ipa.net writes: I don't notice any difference myself. I think once theyare heat treated, then soaking, it doesn't seem to make anydifference. Now, if you soaked the strips before heat treating,then I think you would see a difference in the softness of thecane. But, then once you heat treat the strips, everything is stiff again. It seems to me, that the heat treating does somethingto the cane and even soaking it and then letting it dry, doesn'tseem to bother it, once it is heat treated. Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from LECLAIR123@aol.com Mon Mar 4 20:12:14 2002 g252CC815654 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:12:13 -0600 Subject: Re: displacing nodes RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu In a message dated 03/03/2002 10:26:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, dybam@oct.net writes: Mark,You can't believe the difference in planing wet strips from dry ones. I can only take off around .002 " at a time withdry strips, as the strength it takes to push the Hand Mill downthe length of the bed is quite a bit. Being I only weigh 125lbs. Now, with wet/soaked strips. I can take off .006-.008 "at a time with very little effort. You won't believe it, until youtry it. You will never go back to dry strips. And there is no gouging or chattering or anything else. Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from jojo@ipa.net Mon Mar 4 20:12:30 2002 g252CU815697 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:12:30 -0600 helo=default) id 16i4R6-0008RS-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Mon, 04 Mar 2002 21:12:17 -0500 Subject: Re: displacing nodes Thanks, Dave. I wondered about that. Having been told of one rod that hadremained submersed for awhile, then dried out, with no apparent difference in its action, even whencompared to a new rod ofthe same taper, I really have to wonder about some of our thinking.I do think you're correct about when the cane is wet and being softer, butwhen it dries out itdoesn't seem to really matter. M-D In a message dated 03/03/2002 9:08:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,jojo@ipa.netwrites: I don't notice any difference myself. I think once theyare heat treated, then soaking, it doesn't seem to make anydifference. Now, if you soaked the strips before heat treating,then I think you would see a difference in the softness of thecane. But, then once you heat treat the strips, everything isstiff again. It seems to me, that the heat treating does somethingto the cane and even soaking it and then letting it dry, doesn'tseem to bother it, once it is heat treated. Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from LECLAIR123@aol.com Mon Mar 4 20:17:07 2002 g252H6816086 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:17:06 -0600 Subject: Re: displacing nodes RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu In a message dated 03/04/2002 11:36:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, wlwalter77us@yahoo.com writes: You may be right. That it isn't going all the through the cane, only down to about where I. Finnish planing. Which is good!That's probably why the dimensions didn't change after I let it dry Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from rkrees@mcn.net Mon Mar 4 20:37:06 2002 g252b5816633 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:37:05 -0600 id 16i4ot-0003To-00; Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:36:52 -0800 , , Subject: Re: displacing nodes ?At Tom's advice I too started soaking strips but I have found that overnight seems to do it forme. I have no problems with nodes and I cut to finale and it seems to work.On the lighter sideonce as a lad my grandfather and I found a cane pole on the Prove river(about 1967 if you lostit). After cleaning moss off and drying for a few weeks it seemed to castjust fine and still today from time to time although it hasn't been fished in awhile.Ron from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Mar 4 21:41:15 2002 g253fD818185 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:41:14 -0600 Subject: RE: Casting Clinics There are certain things you can just take as an article as faith, the Driggs is one of them. Tony At 03:47 PM 3/4/02 -0600, Miller, Troy wrote: You know, I have never cast the Driggs, that I can recall. But EVERYONEwhospeaks of it has nothing but praise for the taper. I will have to make oneof those, early on and see how I like it. Or, better yet, someone bring oneto Conclave! Now there is an idea. How about everyone bring a copy oftheir very favorite taper, and we can admire how the finest designsperform?TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 3:20 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: RE: Casting Clinics Try the Garrison based "easy cast" taper from Bob Milward's book. I havenotmade that one next, but everything that Bob has said otherwise about thetapers in his book is true. That 6'6" taper is absloutely fantastic. I thinkthe Driggs would be another very easy casting taper in my opinion.Best regards,Bob /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from HomeyDKlown@att.net Mon Mar 4 21:42:16 2002 g253gF818459 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:42:15 -0600 Subject: Was Off The Subject. Now Shotguns Jeez!! I feel like Charlie Brown when he kept saying "I got a rock"! I have anold, semi-beat up Remington 870 Wingmaster that I bought used. It's a goodutilitarian popgun that basically works for me. It's my all around shooter.I also have a side b'side IGA coach gun (Stoeger), made in Brazil I think,in 410 that's good for dusting upland critters, but I donn't use it much. I keep thinking of that refrain from Wayne's World... "We're not worthy,we're not worthy..." Anyway... I love all my "children" . They have a special place in mytree fort, better known as my home. Dennis (aka Blockhead) PS: No jokes or I'll sick my sister Sally on you! -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Off The Subject I've been regularly visiting a Vincenzo BernardelliRoma 6e at a local gunshop for about 3 yrs. EverytimeI talk myself into buying her, I realize my Fulton andmy Union Armera (Grulla) will do everything I need. rod so I could flaunt it, and so it sits therebeckoning to me month after month. It's probably 20 yrs. old, but new in the case. V.Bernardelli's have sideplates but are boxlocks and notsidelocks, machined engraving (I'm pretty sure)although it is complex and beautiful. Splinterforearms and English stocks in figured walnut andtight engraving. I've corresponded with a few long time V. BernardelliRoma owners in my research and they all speakfavorably of them as outlasting other more "respected"doubles. No failures and high quality. I think thebetter Roma's are currently valued in the $1800-$2100range depending of course on condition and grade. There is also a P. Bernardelli that is a lower end gunimported under names like "Gamecock" I think. I don'tthink these guns have the fit and finish that theVincenzo guns do and are valued lower accordingly. Anyway, there are some bulletin board sites that cangive you a wealth of information on all your doublegun inquiries. www.gunshop.com andwww.shootingsportsmen.com are two that I know of. Alot of experts visit these sites and are willing toshare information. Good luck. --- timothy troester wrote: since we are all talking about double guns, doesanyone have a bernadeli or opinion about them?timothy --- "Brian D. Creek" wrote: Model 12 "corn shuckers" make great trap guns, arereally good duck and goose guns, and seem to lastforever. Brian----- Original Message -----From: William R. Fink Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 3:33 PMSubject: Off The Subject To the List?While we are off the subject, I've used amatched set of 12 and 20 Ga. Model 12's for over 50 years and see no need to change. Over that periodI've enjoyed the company of 8 black Labs and againsee no need to change. Bill ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseballhttp://sports.yahoo.com __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseballhttp://sports.yahoo.com from bennetts@cybermesa.com Mon Mar 4 23:04:26 2002 g2554P822639 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:04:25 -0600 Subject: Re: Green Peter, TOO well! Since 1963. Now will this start a brother in law thread? Scott ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Green Better! Much better! How well do you know the brother-in-law? Peter from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Mon Mar 4 23:39:33 2002 g255dW823254 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:39:33 -0600 g255dUK01276; Subject: Re: displacing nodes You're right. John Z. suggested that I mist the sections prior to glue =up and I always do, and have had no trouble. I just want the moisture =to be on the surface and used up in the glueing process. I also cure my =strips (use perkins L-100 glue) in the oven once they are straightened =as well as I can get them, again on 150 degrees, unplug the box and go =away for a day. I've had some tips that were really prone to taking a =set before I added the drying stage before glue-up. I know other guys =do it different and don't have trouble. This is just what's worked for =me. Brian Subject: Re: displacing nodes Brian, I've experinced a few delaminations when the root cause seemed to be =cane that we too dry and now you're confusing me with a possiblity that =something else may have failed.I even mist my rods with water to make sure that the cane is not too =dry. Have been told that cane should be about 8% prior to gluing. Don At 09:17 PM 3/3/02 -0500, you wrote:SOAK FIRST -- Then do the nodes -- rough plane -- and THEN heat 'em =up. And I put the finished strips in the oven at 150 F or so for a while =beforeI go to glue up now. What I usually do is turn the oven on, let it =heat up,put the strips in, wait for the thing to stabilize again, unplug the =ovenand go to bed. Then I glue the nest day. Seems to help where set isinvolved. Brian ----- Original Message -----From: "Jojo DeLancier" Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 9:06 PMSubject: RE: displacing nodes Dave, Hank, et al Given the contemporary thought that it is the moisture in the cane =thatsets up the conditions conducive to rods takinga set, not being as stiff, etc. do you guys who heat treat, then =soak andplane, notice any adverse effects in yourrods? M-D From: Barry and Dave,I've been heat treating before soaking, then final planing and I,too,have found no shrinking after the strips dry. Of course, being an =oldf-- t,what do I know?Regards,Hank. http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html Don, oven once they are straightened as well as I can get them, again on 150 = prone to taking a set before I added the drying stage before = what's worked for me. Brian ----- Original Message ----- & Sandy Andersen Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 = PMSubject: Re: displacing =nodesBrian,I've experinced a few delaminations when = cause seemed to be cane that we too dry and now you're confusing me = possiblity that something else may have failed.I even mist my rods = water to make sure that the cane is not too dry. Have been told that = should be about 8% prior togluing.DonAt = = from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Tue Mar 5 02:30:02 2002 g258U2825453 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 02:30:02 -0600 Subject: RE: Casting Clinics Troy, You might want to try .070" at the tip, ferrule dimension =.200" andbutt(10" above the end of the rod) = .300" Extrapolate out a linear taper.This cast pretty nice.A 5 wt 7'6" would work out to be something like: 0 .0705 .08410 .09815 .11220 .12625 .14030 .15435 .16840 .18245 .200 45 .20050 .21455 .22860 .24265 .25670 .27075 .28480 .30085 .30090 .300 tom Anybody got a "for instance" for this taper virgin? Thanks -- TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 7:44 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: RE: RE: Casting Clinics Troy,I would think a 5 wgt. straight taper would do well as a beginner's rod. Let me know how they turn out.Hank. from petermckean@netspace.net.au Tue Mar 5 03:57:40 2002 g259vc826733 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 03:57:38 -0600 g259vVD97059; Subject: Re: Off The Subject Chris I'd be really surprised if the engraving on your "mistress" was not handengraving. I think that if you even say the words "machine engraving" up there in theVal Trompia, they kill you. Have you ever seen the book "Modern Firearms Engraving", by Mario Abbiaticoof Armi Famars? You might or might not like the style of engraving, but it is absolutelymind- blowing! Peter from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Mar 5 04:00:37 2002 g25A0Z826997 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 04:00:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Off The Subject It's bloody ugly but it is mind blowing in a crass sort of way. Tony Have you ever seen the book "Modern Firearms Engraving", by MarioAbbiaticoof Armi Famars? You might or might not like the style of engraving, but it is absolutelymind- blowing! Peter /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from splitcane@t-online.de Tue Mar 5 05:25:47 2002 g25BPk827909 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 05:25:46 -0600 id 16iD4d-0006xs-05; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:25:39 +0100 fwd09.sul.t-online.com Subject: Re: displacing nodes LECLAIR123@aol.com schrieb: In a message dated 03/03/2002 9:08:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,jojo@ipa.netwrites: Dave, Hank, et al stuff deleted >> I don't notice any difference myself. I think once they. It seems to me, that the heat treating does somethingto the cane and even soaking it and then letting it dry, doesn'tseem to bother it, once it is heat treated. Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html Hi Dave et all. If one heat treat the bamboo in the right manner (not above 180Ÿ Celsius)thebamboo is undergoing a process called hydrophobic. I don't recall the correctdatas but roughly spoken: the heat treatment conditions the bamboo so it'llbeonly be able to regain a certain amount of humidity (which is less then beforeheat treatment).tight linesMichael from kenealyj@gwi.net Tue Mar 5 06:12:45 2002 g25CCi828589 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 06:12:44 -0600 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:12:40 -0500 Subject: Anybody heard of... A rodmaker named "Joe Trainor." I had a guy bring in a bunch of cane rods for a friend of his who's =grandfather worked for South Bend, some of these are supposed to be ="prototypes." He didn't know any more than that. A few of these rods had the Joe Trainor signiature. Any hlp would be appreciated. thanks,John K A rodmaker named "Joe =Trainor." I had a guy bring in a bunch of cane = that. A few of these rods had the Joe Trainor= signiature. Any hlp would be =appreciated. thanks,JohnK from Jkvseafood@aol.com Tue Mar 5 07:48:10 2002 g25Dm9800038 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:48:09 -0600 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:48:00 -0500 Subject: leonard parts hello group, i could use your help. i have a 3/2 13 ft leonard. the rod had english bronze snakes and an unknown stripper. the butt, mid and one tip section has been stripped. chris tucker was kind enought to send me some of the thread (thanks again chris). i think i will have trouble finding used original leonard parts but hope i may. i have one part that has me concerned, the rod had a red rubber butt cap that screwed into ns butt cap. i don't remember who told me maybe darrell lee that he knew of someone that had afew of these caps, i could really use one. if any of you can help i would appreciate all the help i can get. thank you, john from Jkvseafood@aol.com Tue Mar 5 07:53:43 2002 g25Drh800358 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:53:43 -0600 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:53:27 -0500 Subject: impregnating me again,could use some help finding a resource does any of you know where i can get a book on impregnating. i am making two 8 ft 7 wt rods for saltwater fishing and wish to build one rod varnished and the other impregnated. both will be hollow built. is there any changes that i should make to the taper if impregnated? thanks, john from LambersonW@missouri.edu Tue Mar 5 09:09:05 2002 g25F94803162 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:09:04 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: impregnating Thread-Topic: impregnatingThread-Index: AcHETcYvWzwwTDBAEdarXwAErEws8gACj/NA g25F94803163 John, I am not aware of any book on impregnating and don't recall if Bob Milwardaddresses it, but I'll take a shot at a qualitative answer to your question. Ihave used impregnation for a few rods. Depending on the method used theremay be an increase in weight of the rod. The effect of the weight is greaterat the tip than at the butt, I suppose because it has a greater range ofmotion during casting. That weight tends to slow the rod action, in somerespects similarly to using a heavy set of guides. The impregnating agentmay have other effects on the action as well, I don't know. To account forthe weight effect and achieve an action similar to that of a varnished versionof the same taper, the taper should be modified to speed the rod up a bit. How much? It depends on the amount of weight added. Good luck. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Subject: impregnating me again,could use some help finding a resource does any of you know where i can get a book on impregnating. i am making two 8 ft 7 wt rods for saltwater fishing and wish to build one rod varnished and the other impregnated. both will be hollow built. is there any changes that i should make to the taper if impregnated? thanks, john from jojo@ipa.net Tue Mar 5 09:11:18 2002 g25FBH803436 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:11:17 -0600 helo=default) id 16iGat-0005kQ-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 10:11:12 -0500 Subject: Re: displacing nodes Indeed heat treating does condition the bamboo to regain less moisture thanit previously had.Ranges of moisture regain ran the gamut between .2g- .5g, with most being.3g. Considering that thethought-to-be original moisture contents ran from .2g-.9g, with most running.6g, it follows thatwe've done something to the bamboo to cause it to have a reduced ability tohold moisture, and thatsomething is a crosslinking of molecules within the lignin, brought about bythe liberation of themoisture and volatile oils, leaving -OH (hydroxyl) groups, which are strongbonders, that seek outthe proper molecular chains with which to bond. At least this is what happenswith other celluloseproducts, and there's no reason for me to believe that bamboo is anydifferent. Besides, who caresas long as it works, right?Soaking strips is an entirely different thing though. In my experience they willattain the sameweight after heat treating as they did before. The primary difference is thatthey apparently willdry to the same, or nearly the same, level of equilibrium moisture content. Itdoes, however, takeseveral days to achieve a saturation of the strips, and one or two days is notsufficient to achievethis saturation, in my experience. M-D Hi Dave et all. If one heat treat the bamboo in the right manner (not above 180Ÿ Celsius)thebamboo is undergoing a process called hydrophobic. I don't recall the correctdatas but roughly spoken: the heat treatment conditions the bamboo so it'llbeonly be able to regain a certain amount of humidity (which is less then beforeheat treatment).tight linesMichael from flytyr@southshore.com Tue Mar 5 09:29:02 2002 g25FT1804624 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:29:01 -0600 g25FSx312612 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:28:59 -0600 Subject: Requests for photos Todd has put these on his web site. Got too manyrequests to send them out individually.If you can't get them for any reason, get back tome.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Here is Todd's message to me. I have the tapping shots on the site. Here is theaddress: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Cont/Contraptions/Planing_Forms/Spezio__Tony/spezio__tony.html Is the router bit setup this one?http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Cont/Contraptions/Jigs__Other/jigs__other.html from harms1@pa.net Tue Mar 5 09:52:03 2002 g25Fq3806163 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:52:03 -0600 , , Subject: Re: displacing nodes David, I'm not so sure about this one. I believe that a very large strip probablyneeds to be soaked longer than 48 hours, but a strip that has already beenrough-beveled to 60 degrees is considerably smaller and will very quicklyabsorb about as much water as it can within 48 hours. Moreover, when a wet strip is planed (or milled) to final dimensions, theenamel side would not have had its saturated surfaces removed--and this ismostly what remains after planing. I just don't think the "48-hour-factor" would play into (or against) yourobservations, David. cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Re: displacing nodes In a message dated 03/04/2002 11:36:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,wlwalter77us@yahoo.com writes: Dave, at 48 hours, its likely that the strip isn'tgetting soaked all the way through and planning tofinal actually takes you past the soaked cane intomostly dry. This is good to know. Perhaps soaking for3 to 4 days for handmill users is not in our bestinterest. When doing the final planning I don't soak,only soak when I'm roughing, but I'm starting torethink this based on what you've learned. Bill W. >> You may be right. That it isn't going all the through the cane, only down to about where I. Finnish planing. Which is good!That's probably why the dimensions didn't change after I let it dry Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from aebersold@ou.edu Tue Mar 5 10:00:32 2002 g25G0V806956 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:00:31 -0600 id ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:00:31 -0600 Subject: soaking Let me summarize and ask a quesiton. I've heard all of the steps below.Which would you leave out and why? 1. Flame2a, Split2. Soak3. Rough Bevel4. Bind and heat treat5. Soak6. Final Plane7. Minor heat again8. Glue9. Heat to set glue. -dDennis Aebersold from cw@vanion.com Tue Mar 5 10:02:50 2002 g25G2n807377 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:02:49 -0600 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:07:43 -0700 Subject: Bellinger Rough Beveler Hi Guys, There's a Bellinger Rough-out beveler for sale on ebay, was =wondering if anyone using or has used the machine could give some =feedback on it.Thanks, Chad Hi Guys, There's a Bellinger = give some feedback on it.Thanks, =Chad from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Tue Mar 5 11:01:47 2002 g25H1k810967 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:01:46 -0600 sender ) Subject: Re: displacing nodes.. now gluing and moisture Hello all,When talking about moisture content and gluing, I think it would be =appropriate to mention the type of glue being used as to elinmate =confusion. I know URAC needs moisture to cure, I believe epoxy doesn't =(not sure, I'm sure someone will correct me). Not sure of other types =of glue, (tightbond), as I use URAC exclusively. Misting the strips =seems like overkill, but Jimmy Z is more of an expert than I. thanks Subject: Re: displacing nodes Brian, I've experinced a few delaminations when the root cause seemed to be =cane that we too dry and now you're confusing me with a possiblity that =something else may have failed.I even mist my rods with water to make sure that the cane is not too =dry. Have been told that cane should be about 8% prior to gluing. Don At 09:17 PM 3/3/02 -0500, you wrote:SOAK FIRST -- Then do the nodes -- rough plane -- and THEN heat 'em =up. And I put the finished strips in the oven at 150 F or so for a =while beforeI go to glue up now. What I usually do is turn the oven on, let it =heat up,put the strips in, wait for the thing to stabilize again, unplug =the ovenand go to bed. Then I glue the nest day. Seems to help where set isinvolved. Brian ----- Original Message -----From: "Jojo DeLancier" Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 9:06 PMSubject: RE: displacing nodes Dave, Hank, et al Given the contemporary thought that it is the moisture in the =cane thatsets up the conditions conducive to rods takinga set, not being as stiff, etc. do you guys who heat treat, then =soak andplane, notice any adverse effects in yourrods? M-D From: Barry and Dave,I've been heat treating before soaking, then final planing and =I,too,have found no shrinking after the strips dry. Of course, being =an oldf--t,what do I know?Regards,Hank. http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html Hello all,When talking about moisture content and gluing, I = would be appropriate to mention the type of glue being used as to = like overkill, but Jimmy Z is more of an expert than I. thanks ----- Original Message ----- & Sandy Andersen Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 = PMSubject: Re: displacing =nodesBrian,I've experinced a few delaminations = root cause seemed to be cane that we too dry and now you're = with a possiblity that something else may have failed.I even = rods with water to make sure that the cane is not too dry. Have been = gluing.DonAt 09:17 PM 3/3/02 - "Rodmakers discussion group" = = from dongreife@hotmail.com Tue Mar 5 11:18:01 2002 g25HI0812131 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:18:00 -0600 Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:17:54 -0800 HTTP; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 17:17:54 GMT Subject: RE: impregnating FILETIME=[B02ACE10:01C1C469] John,, Mark Wendt recently had a process for impregnating a cane rod the archives.. Don Greife , if Bob Milward addresses it, but I'll take a shot at a qualitative answer toyour question. I have used impregnation for a few rods. Depending on themethod used there may be an increase in weight of the rod. The effect ofthe weight is greater at the tip than at the butt, I suppose because it has agreater range of motion during casting. That weight tends to slow the rodaction, in some respects similarly to using a heavy set of guides. Theimpregnating agent may have other effects on the action as well, I don'tknow. To account for the weight effect and achieve an action similar to thatof a varnished version of the same taper, the taper should be modified tospeed the rod up a bit. How much? It depends on the amount of weight added. impregnating know where i can get saltwater fishing impregnated. both will be taper if Send and receive Hotmail on yourmobile device: ClickHere from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Tue Mar 5 11:28:44 2002 g25HSd812951 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:28:39 -0600 g25HSYdd004104 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:28:35 -0500 Subject: RE: impregnating Don, snarfedthat from Bob Nunley's article in article in the July 2001 issue of great read on making cane ferrules, and impregnating them.Mark At 11:17 AM 3/5/2002 -0600, you wrote:John,, Mark Wendt recently had aprocess for impregnating a cane rod and published it on the listserve on Greife Milward addresses it, but I'll take a shot at a qualitative answer toyour question. I have used impregnation for a few rods. Depending on themethod used there may be an increase in weight of the rod. The effect ofthe weight is greater at the tip than at the butt, I suppose because ithas a greater range of motion during casting. That weight tends to slowthe rod action, in some respects similarly to using a heavy set ofguides. The impregnating agent may have other effects on the action aswell, I don't know. To account for the weight effect and achieve anaction similar to that of a varnished version of the same taper, thetaper should be modified to speed the rod up a bit. How much? It dependson the amount of weight added. can get fishing will be Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:ClickHere from KyleDruey@aol.com Tue Mar 5 11:59:17 2002 g25HxG814989 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:59:16 -0600 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:58:42 -0500 0305125842; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:58:42 -0500 Subject: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer List, how well can fittings be touched up using Kodak Fixer, and what theprocedure? This would be in the context of: -a reel seat cap that has been blued/darkened by immersion in the KodakFixer solution, then -the above reel seat cap is then pinned, and the wire filed/polished flush withthe fitting but now the pin hole area needs to be blued/darkened again fortouch up TIA, Kyle from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Mar 5 13:44:48 2002 g25Jil821981 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:44:47 -0600 Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:44:47 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Thread-Topic: Touch Up with Kodak FixerThread-Index: AcHEb4QJlgDKkjBdEda4KQBglOouXwADoATA FILETIME=[34D43390:01C1C47E] g25Jim821982 I haven't had exactly your situation, but I've darkened them by simply rubbingthe solution onto the surface for several minutes. I mixed my fixer doublestrength last time, but regular strength works, too.....Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer List, how well can fittings be touched up using Kodak Fixer, and what theprocedure? This would be in the context of: -a reel seat cap that has been blued/darkened by immersion in the KodakFixer solution, then -the above reel seat cap is then pinned, and the wire filed/polished flush withthe fitting but now the pin hole area needs to be blued/darkened again fortouch up TIA, Kyle from petermckean@netspace.net.au Tue Mar 5 16:06:25 2002 g25M6N808934 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:06:24 -0600 g25M6Eh97080; Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Kyle Just swab the stuff on with a cotton bud - "Q-tip", I believe you know themas; move the solution around, and rinse it off under running water when youhave got the darkness you need. Couple of minutes, tops. Buy Ilford fixer. It's liquid, and saves a lot of buggerising around mixingit up. Now we get to the heresy bit. I KNOW all that has been said about thefunction of Hardener in the photo process, and how it's supposed to funtionto toughen the protein phase of the surface emulsion of film, and I KNOWhowit cannot therefore have any effect at all on bluing nickel silver, and IKNOW that anybody who thinks that it does or can possibly improve thebluingmust be (a) stupid (b) mislead (c) inept (d) in cloud cuckoo land (e) awanker, or (f) all of the above! But it does! Cheers Peter abcdef from bcombest@iclub.org Tue Mar 5 16:55:27 2002 g25MtQ811382 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:55:26 -0600 ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:55:51 -0500 Subject: replacing strip I am new to this endeavor and have some questions. When you have final planned a strip and decide that it is sub-standard =and you wish to replace it with another strip, how do you heat treat a =single strip and what is the procedure? I am new to this endeavor and havesome = questions. When you have final planned a strip and= it is sub-standard and you wish to replace it with another strip, how do = heat treat a single strip and what is the =procedure? from bcombest@iclub.org Tue Mar 5 16:55:34 2002 g25MtW811396 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:55:33 -0600 ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:55:55 -0500 Subject: Degloss Varnish I am new to this endeavor and have another question. I have used spar varnish in a dip tank and am pleased with the coverage =but is there a good way to de-gloss the hight sheen on the final coat? I am new to this endeavor and have = question. I have used spar varnish in a dip tank = pleased with the coverage but is there a good way to de-gloss the hight = the final coat? from cdn@ticon.net Tue Mar 5 17:33:28 2002 g25NXR813491 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:33:27 -0600 Subject: Re: replacing strip Bruce- what I've done in that situation is make up a set of dummyrough strips out of maple and just bind up your replacement bamboostrip with 5 of the dummy strips.This will keep your replacementstrip straight and the entire bundle will have about the same thermalmass as the original bundle of six bamboo stripsand as long as you treat at the same time/temp as your originaltreatment the replacement strip should be very close.good luckNed Bruce Combest wrote: I am new to this endeavor and have some questions. When you have final planned a strip and decide that it is sub-standardand you wish to replace it with another strip, how do you heat treat asingle strip and what is the procedure? from bob@downandacross.com Tue Mar 5 18:21:37 2002 g260La815736 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:21:36 -0600 5 Mar 2002 19:11:22 -0500 Subject: RE: replacing strip Bruce. I ususally bind an extra piece to the outside of the bundle when Iheat treat. You might want to seek out one of Martin-Darrell's new heattreating set ups. They are extruded metal (aluminum?) that nestle the stripswhen put in the oven. I just got mine MOnday, but man they look nice. Theyshould work as well for one strip as they do 6.M-D, any ideasBob-----Original Message----- From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:55 PM Subject: replacing strip I am new to this endeavor and have some questions. When you have final planned a strip and decide that it is sub-standard andyou wish to replace it with another strip, how do you heat treat a singlestrip and what is the procedure? ususally bind an extra piece to the outside of the bundle when I heat = might want to seek out one of Martin-Darrell's new heat treating set = are extruded metal (aluminum?) that nestle the strips when put in the = just got mine MOnday, but man they look nice. They should work as well = strip as they do 6. Bob CombestSent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:55 RodmakersSubject: replacing stripI am new to this endeavor and have = questions. When you have final planned a strip = that it is sub-standard and you wish to replace it with another strip, = procedure? from bob@downandacross.com Tue Mar 5 18:21:38 2002 g260Lb815740 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:21:37 -0600 5 Mar 2002 19:11:36 -0500 Subject: RE: Degloss Varnish Rottenstone?-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:58 PM Subject: Degloss Varnish I am new to this endeavor and have another question. I have used spar varnish in a dip tank and am pleased with the coveragebut is there a good way to de-gloss the hight sheen on the final coat? Rottenstone? CombestSent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:58 RodmakersSubject: Degloss Varnish I am new to this endeavor and have = question. I have used spar varnish in a dip = pleased with the coverage but is there a good way to de-gloss the = on the final coat? from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Tue Mar 5 18:23:59 2002 g260Nx816092 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:23:59 -0600 g260R2P10930; Subject: Re: soaking You left out 3a. Straighten and flatten nodes. As I said earlier, I skip5, but it sounds like several guys find planing wet strips to be muchquicker and easier.Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: soaking Let me summarize and ask a quesiton. I've heard all of the steps below.Which would you leave out and why? 1. Flame2a, Split2. Soak3. Rough Bevel4. Bind and heat treat5. Soak6. Final Plane7. Minor heat again8. Glue9. Heat to set glue. -dDennis Aebersold from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 5 18:42:13 2002 g260gB817148 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:42:12 -0600 Subject: RE: Casting Clinics FISHWOOL@aol.com Tom and Troy,The following is not exactly a straight taper but almost. It's done very well for me:0" .062 45" .1925" .084 50" .20810" .096 55" .220 Good Luck,15" .108 60" .242 Hank.20" .122 65" .26825" .136 70" .28230" ,150 75" .30435" .164 80" .30640" .180 85" .30845" .192 90" .310 from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Tue Mar 5 18:48:36 2002 g260mZ817558 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:48:35 -0600 ;Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:48:20 +0000 Subject: Re: replacing strip Bruce, I have taken a number of strips from the original culm and bundled them =up as well as possible to heat treat for one. I now carry four extra =strips all the way through the rod building process to rough planing in =case I need extras. I will have to make a rod from the remainders some =day. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 11:54 AMSubject: replacing strip I am new to this endeavor and have some questions. When you have final planned a strip and decide that it is sub-standard =and you wish to replace it with another strip, how do you heat treat a =single strip and what is the procedure? Bruce, I have taken a number of strips from = culm and bundled them up as well as possible to heat treat for one. I = four extra strips all the way through the rod building process to rough = in case I need extras. I will have to make a rod from the remainders = day. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO ----- Original Message ----- Bruce= Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 = AMSubject: replacing strip I am new to this endeavor and have = questions. When you have final planned a strip = that it is sub-standard and you wish to replace it with another strip, = procedure? from robertgkope@attbi.com Tue Mar 5 18:54:53 2002 g260sq817959 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:54:52 -0600 Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:54:39 +0000 Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Exactly. I don't bother bluing ferrules until they're mounted now. It'stoo much bother to try to clean up the tabs without messing up the bluing.I just swab on the fixer before I wrap them. -- Robert----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Kyle Just swab the stuff on with a cotton bud - "Q-tip", I believe you know them as; move the solution around, and rinse it off under running water when you have got the darkness you need. Couple of minutes, tops. Buy Ilford fixer. It's liquid, and saves a lot of buggerising around mixing it up. Now we get to the heresy bit. I KNOW all that has been said about thefunction of Hardener in the photo process, and how it's supposed to funtion to toughen the protein phase of the surface emulsion of film, and I KNOW how it cannot therefore have any effect at all on bluing nickel silver, and IKNOW that anybody who thinks that it does or can possibly improve the bluing must be (a) stupid (b) mislead (c) inept (d) in cloud cuckoo land (e) awanker, or (f) all of the above! But it does! Cheers Peter abcdef from flytyr@southshore.com Tue Mar 5 19:08:22 2002 g2618L819680 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:08:21 -0600 g2618HO06195; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:08:17 -0600 Subject: Re: displacing nodes Robert,All of this is based on un flamed rods. That isall I have made. It seems that it works on flamedrods from some of the recent posts.I found that soaking for at least four days andcutting the relief the back side of the node keepsthe bump from coming back up. I soak for five tosix days. This may not be traditional but it is alot easier on my old hands. After displacing thenode, the only thing protruding is the littleridge. That is filed off with a few strokes of thefile. If you have to take a kink out of the stripat the node, do that first then flip it to theenamel side and displace the node, all in onemotion. Leave that strip in the vise and start onthe next strip. Keep the strips that you are notworking on it the water. While the strips are wet,they are beveled and partial tapered. I guess Ihave said it a hundred times, once you plane wetstrips you will never go back to dry planingexcept for the final taper.I do two strips at a time, displace, bevel andpartial taper. When the 18 strips are finished,they are bound ( as they will be glued) with thepith side out and put in the oven to dry. They canbe air dried also. I believe with the pith sideout they dry a lot faster and more complete. Afterthe strips are dried they are pretty straight, Idon't find the bumps re appearing. I re bind inthe normal way to heat treat.The binding cord will be somewhat loose afterdrying.Now on heating the nodes, the wet strips only take30 to 45 seconds to be soft enough to displace.Not at all like dry strips. There is no burning orhardening of the node. When you plane over a wetnode it is not felt at all unless the strip is dryin the middle.I do believe the sticks need to be DRY beforefinal planing. I try to heat treat, final planeand glue all in one session. Next session, heatset, sand and apply a coat of Tung varnish to sealthe blankHope I shed some light on your questions.No pun intended, I may be all wet on this deal.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Robert Kope wrote: I had some questions for Tony Spezio about nodedisplacing, but thought the subject wasinteresting enough to put on the list. Besides,I know that others are using this method and mayalso have advice to contribute. Tony's articleon node displacing in the latest issue ofPowerfibers has me interested enough to give ita try, but I still don't get how to proceedafter flattening the nodes. On most nodes, thecrooks in the strip going side to side are muchmore pronounced than the bumps in the verticaldimension. After flattening the node, don't thebumps come back when you reheat the node tostraighten the strip? How about when heattreating? I haven't tried soaking strips yet,but I've heard that soaked strips shrink bynearly 20% when heat treated. Doesn't this makethe string so loose that the nodes go back totheir original shape? TIA, Robert Kope from fquinchat@locl.net Tue Mar 5 19:18:39 2002 g261Ic821435 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:18:38 -0600 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Degloss Varnish Bob, Please expain the procedure for using both rottenstone and pumice stone. =How do you use pumice to remove slight blemishes without deglossing? I =have never used either. Dennis Bertram-----Original Message-----From: Bob Maulucci Rottenstone?-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:58 PM I am new to this endeavor and have another question. I have used spar varnish in a dip tank and am pleased with the =coverage but is there a good way to de-gloss the hight sheen on the =final coat? Bob, Please expain the procedure for using both = Dennis Bertram -----Original = bcombest@iclub.org = Rodmakers <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, March 05, 2002 7:22 PMSubject: RE: Degloss = Rottenstone? -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.w= CombestSent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:58 = RodmakersSubject: Degloss Varnish I am new to this endeavor and have = question. I have used spar varnish in a dip = pleased with the coverage but is there a good way to de-gloss the = sheen on the final =coat? from jojo@ipa.net Tue Mar 5 19:23:08 2002 g261N8822296 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:23:08 -0600 helo=default) id 16iQ90-0002oK-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:23:03 -0500 Subject: Re: replacing strip Bob, Being able to heat treat single, double, etc., strips was one of the =design criteria, so yeah, it works fine. I actually think it better to =heat two strips minimum when doing this, one directly across from the =other, to minimize or counteract the stresses. M-D Bruce. I ususally bind an extra piece to the outside of the bundle =when I heat treat. You might want to seek out one of Martin-Darrell's =new heat treating set ups. They are extruded metal (aluminum?) that =nestle the strips when put in the oven. I just got mine MOnday, but man =they look nice. They should work as well for one strip as they do 6.M-D, any ideasBobOn Behalf Of Bruce Combest I am new to this endeavor and have some questions. When you have final planned a strip and decide that it is =sub-standard and you wish to replace it with another strip, how do you =heat treat a single strip and what is the procedure? Bob, Being able to heattreat = double, etc., strips was one of the design criteria, so yeah, it works = actually think it better to heat two strips minimum when doing this, one = stresses. M-D Maulucci ususally bind an extra piece to the outside of the bundle when I heat = You might want to seek out one of Martin-Darrell's new heat treating = They are extruded metal (aluminum?) that nestle the strips when put in = oven. I just got mine MOnday, but man they look nice. They should work = Bob On Behalf Of Bruce CombestI am new to this endeavor and have = questions. When you have final planned a strip = that it is sub-standard and you wish to replace it with another = procedure? from channer@frontier.net Tue Mar 5 19:27:30 2002 g261RT823058 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:27:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Peter;Quit beating around the bush and come to the point, we're all wonderingwhat you really think!LOLjohn Peter McKean wrote: Kyle Just swab the stuff on with a cotton bud - "Q-tip", I believe you know themas; move the solution around, and rinse it off under running water whenyouhave got the darkness you need. Couple of minutes, tops. Buy Ilford fixer. It's liquid, and saves a lot of buggerising around mixingit up. Now we get to the heresy bit. I KNOW all that has been said about thefunction of Hardener in the photo process, and how it's supposed tofuntionto toughen the protein phase of the surface emulsion of film, and I KNOWhowit cannot therefore have any effect at all on bluing nickel silver, and IKNOW that anybody who thinks that it does or can possibly improve thebluingmust be (a) stupid (b) mislead (c) inept (d) in cloud cuckoo land (e) awanker, or (f) all of the above! But it does! Cheers Peter abcdef from jojo@ipa.net Tue Mar 5 19:29:12 2002 g261TC823417 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:29:12 -0600 helo=default) id 16iQEx-0004r0-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:29:12 -0500 Subject: Re: displacing nodes Looks like an intentional pun, with malice aforethought, to me. M-D No pun intended, I may be all wet on this deal.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from channer@frontier.net Tue Mar 5 19:30:05 2002 g261U5823632 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:30:05 -0600 Subject: Re: Degloss Varnish Bruce,Sure is, just use it awhile, it will dull down soon enoughjohn Bruce Combest wrote: I am new to this endeavor and have another question. I have used spar varnish in a dip tank and am pleased with thecoverage but is there a good way to de-gloss the hight sheen on thefinal coat? from dnorl@qwest.net Tue Mar 5 20:26:34 2002 g262QX827823 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:26:33 -0600 (63.228.45.133) KyleDruey@aol.com Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer And it doesn't mark the cane?-----Original Message----- KyleDruey@aol.com Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Exactly. I don't bother bluing ferrules until they're mounted now. It'stoo much bother to try to clean up the tabs without messing up the bluing.I just swab on the fixer before I wrap them. -- Robert----- Original Message -----From: "Peter McKean" Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 2:05 PMSubject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Kyle Just swab the stuff on with a cotton bud - "Q-tip", I believe you know them as; move the solution around, and rinse it off under running water when you have got the darkness you need. Couple of minutes, tops. Buy Ilford fixer. It's liquid, and saves a lot of buggerising around mixing it up. Now we get to the heresy bit. I KNOW all that has been said about thefunction of Hardener in the photo process, and how it's supposed to funtion to toughen the protein phase of the surface emulsion of film, and I KNOW how it cannot therefore have any effect at all on bluing nickel silver, and IKNOW that anybody who thinks that it does or can possibly improve the bluing must be (a) stupid (b) mislead (c) inept (d) in cloud cuckoo land (e) awanker, or (f) all of the above! But it does! Cheers Peter abcdef from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Tue Mar 5 20:27:48 2002 g262Rl827908 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:27:47 -0600 Subject: Effect of Soaking on Strip Dimensions - An Experiment I have begun an experiment to document the effects of soaking on bamboo =strip dimensions.Two methods will be used in the experiment as well as a control. Three =strips from the butt section of a cane will be used, one strip for each =of two methods and a control. Strips are 50 inches long and sample =points will be located at intervals along the strip. Sample point C =will be located on a node. 1. Measure strip width and thicknes at 5 points (a, b, c, d, e).2. Soak strip in water for 24 hours. Measure same 5 points.3. Air dry for 48 hours and measure same 5 points.4. Heat treat at 350 for 30 minutes cool to room temp and measuresame 5=points. (no planing) Method B.1. Measure strip width and thicknes at 5 points (a, b, c, d, e).2. Heat treat at 350 for 30 minutes cool to room temp and measure.3. Soak strip in water for 24 hours. Measure same 5 points.4. Air dry for 48 hours and measure same 5 points. Control1. Measure strip width and thicknes at 5 points (a, b, c, d, e).2. 4 days later measure same strip at the 5 points. Testing - Method AStep 1 - measure strip dryPoint Width ThicknessA .258 .244B .274 .243C .265 .245D .301 .245E .295 .238 Step 2 - soak 24 hoursPoint Width ThicknessA .267 .254B .283 .253C .276 .253D .312 .253E .311 .248 I have begun an experiment to = effects of soaking on bamboo strip dimensions.Two methods will be used in the = 1. Measure strip width and thicknes at 5 points (a, = e). Measure same 5 points. points.4. Heat treat at 350 for 30 minutes cool to room = measuresame 5 points. (no planing) Method B. 1. Measure strip width and thicknes at 5 points (a, = e). 2. Heat treat at 350 for 30 minutes cool to room = measure. Measure same 5 points.4. Air dry for 48 hours andmeasure = points. Control 1. Measure strip width and thicknes at 5 points (a, = e). points. Testing - Method =AStep 1 -measure =strip dry Thickness Step 2 - soak 24 hours Thickness from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Tue Mar 5 20:50:22 2002 g262oK828607 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:50:21 -0600 Subject: Re: soaking That 3a would be AFTER 3 right? I soak, do the node work then rough plane.I skip step 5 also. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: soaking You left out 3a. Straighten and flatten nodes. As I said earlier, I skip5, but it sounds like several guys find planing wet strips to be muchquicker and easier.Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Aebersold, Dennis R" Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 11:00 AMSubject: soaking Let me summarize and ask a quesiton. I've heard all of the steps below.Which would you leave out and why? 1. Flame2a, Split2. Soak3. Rough Bevel4. Bind and heat treat5. Soak6. Final Plane7. Minor heat again8. Glue9. Heat to set glue. -dDennis Aebersold from KyleDruey@aol.com Tue Mar 5 21:01:16 2002 g2631F829049 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:01:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer I thought Peter was being just a little too harsh on himself, especially the part about being a wanker... [:)] In a message dated 03/05/2002 5:28:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, channer@frontier.net writes: Peter;Quit beating around the bush and come to the point, we're all wonderingwhat you really think!LOLjohnPeter McKean wrote:KyleJust swab the stuff on with a cotton bud - "Q-tip", I believe you know themas; move the solution around, and rinse it off under running water when youhave got the darkness you need. Couple of minutes, tops.Buy Ilford fixer. It's liquid, and saves a lot of buggerising around mixingit up.Now we get to the heresy bit. I KNOW all that has been said about thefunction of Hardener in the photo process, and how it's supposed to funtionto toughen the protein phase of the surface emulsion of film, and I KNOW howit cannot therefore have any effect at all on bluing nickel silver, and IKNOW that anybody who thinks that it does or can possibly improve the bluingmust be (a) stupid (b) mislead (c) inept (d) in cloud cuckoo land (e) awanker, or (f) all of the above!But it does!CheersPeter abcdef----------------------- Headers ---------------------------- ----Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg01.mx.aol.com (rly-yg01.mail.aol.com Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:27:59 -0500Received: from cadmium.frontier.net (cadmium.frontier.net 0305202737; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:27:37 -0500Received: from frontier.net (ppp29.pm3-06.durango.frontier.net[66.118.194. Message-ID: Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 18:28:01 -0700From: channer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en]C-CCK-MCD NS4xx/Winxx/EZN (Win95; U)X-Accept- Language: en Cc: KyleDruey@aol.com, rodmakers Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak FixerReferences: mckean> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Tue Mar 5 21:04:15 2002 g2634E829253 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:04:15 -0600 Subject: Re: displacing nodes What units of moisture gain are you refering to? If these are grams, whatis the original weight of the sample, or what is the conversion in %moisture content? Ranges of moisture regain ran the gamut between .2g-.5g, with most being .3g. Considering that the thought-to-be original moisture contents ran from .2g-.9g, with most running .6g, it follows that I've started a small experiment on soaking, dimensional changes and theaffect of heat treating before or after soaking on changes. It will takeabout a week. KurtNixa, MO -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: displacing nodes Indeed heat treating does condition the bamboo to regain less moisturethan it previously had. Ranges of moisture regain ran the gamut between .2g-.5g, with most being .3g. Considering that the thought-to-be original moisture contents ran from .2g-.9g, with most running .6g, it follows that we've done something to the bamboo to cause it to have a reduced ability to hold moisture, and that something is a crosslinking of molecules within the lignin, brought about moisture and volatile oils, leaving -OH (hydroxyl) groups, which are strong bonders, that seek out the proper molecular chains with which to bond. At least this is what happens with other cellulose products, and there's no reason for me to believe that bamboo is any different. Besides, who cares as long as it works, right?Soaking strips is an entirely different thing though. In my experience they will attain the same weight after heat treating as they did before. The primary difference is that they apparently will dry to the same, or nearly the same, level of equilibrium moisture content. It does, however, take several days to achieve a saturation of the strips, and one or two days is not sufficient to achieve this saturation, in my experience. M-D From: "Splitcane" Hi Dave et all. If one heat treat the bamboo in the right manner (not above 180Ÿ Celsius) the bamboo is undergoing a process called hydrophobic. I don't recall the correct datas but roughly spoken: the heat treatment conditions the bamboo so it'll be only be able to regain a certain amount of humidity (which is less then before heat treatment).tight linesMichael from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Mar 5 21:06:05 2002 g26364829432 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:06:04 -0600 (authenticated) Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:05:52 -0800 Subject: Re: Degloss Varnish --------------6BF75DAD29992DBC8FFE8CF5 Bruce, MaGuire's auto polish, in the tan bottle, #2, will do quite nicely. As you might suspect, testit before you start rubbing away on your rod. Harry Boyd Bruce Combest wrote: I am new to this endeavor and have anotherquestion. I have used spar varnish in a dip tankand am pleased with the coverage but is there agood way to de- gloss the hight sheen on thefinal coat? -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------6BF75DAD29992DBC8FFE8CF5 Bruce, away on your rod. Bruce Combest wrote: Iam new to this endeavor and have another question. Ihave used spar varnish in a dip tank and am pleased with the coverage butis there a good way to de- gloss the hight sheen on the finalcoat?-- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------6BF75DAD29992DBC8FFE8CF5-- from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 5 21:11:51 2002 g263Bn829767 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:11:50 -0600 Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer petermckean@netspace.net.au,KyleDruey@aol.com Nope.Hank. from jojo@ipa.net Tue Mar 5 21:24:19 2002 g263OJ800278 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:24:19 -0600 helo=default) id 16iS2L-0002F2-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 22:24:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer No. I rather think that if Pete sees himself as a wanker, then wanker he be. M-D I thought Peter was being just a little too harsh on himself, especially the part about being a wanker... [:)] channer@frontier.net writes: Peter;Quit beating around the bush and come to the point, we're all wonderingwhat you really think!LOLjohnPeter McKean wrote:KyleNow we get to the heresy bit. I KNOW all that has been said about thefunction of Hardener in the photo process, and how it's supposed to funtionto toughen the protein phase of the surface emulsion of film, and I KNOW howit cannot therefore have any effect at all on bluing nickel silver, and IKNOW that anybody who thinks that it does or can possibly improve the bluingmust be (a) stupid (b) mislead (c) inept (d) in cloud cuckoo land (e) awanker, or (f) all of the above!But it does!CheersPeter abcdef----------------------- Headers ----- ---------------------------Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg01.mx.aol.com (rly-yg01.mail.aol.com Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:27:59 -0500Received: from cadmium.frontier.net (cadmium.frontier.net 0305202737; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:27:37 -0500Received: from frontier.net (ppp29.pm3-06.durango.frontier.net[66.118.194. Message-ID: Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 18:28:01 -0700From: channer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en]C-CCK-MCD NS4xx/Winxx/EZN (Win95; U)X-Accept- Language: en Cc: KyleDruey@aol.com, rodmakers Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak FixerReferences: mckean> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Mar 5 21:37:07 2002 g263b6800829 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:37:06 -0600 Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:36:57 -0600content-class: urn:content- classes:messageSubject: RE: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Thread-Topic: Touch Up with Kodak FixerThread-Index: AcHEkiMs/Mlv1TCAEda4KQBglOouXwALf1jQ FILETIME=[2B0D4760:01C1C4C0] g263b6800830 Dear Dr. McKean: OK, let's get this straight. Only a stupid wanker (etc) would say the hardenerHELPs the bluing. But what am I if I've used Kodak powdered fixer (mixeddouble strength), which includes a hardener, and found that it still works OK?I kind of like the sound of "Wanker" but am unsure where I stand. Signed, Mixed Up In MIssouri -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Kyle Just swab the stuff on with a cotton bud - "Q-tip", I believe you know themas; move the solution around, and rinse it off under running water when youhave got the darkness you need. Couple of minutes, tops. Buy Ilford fixer. It's liquid, and saves a lot of buggerising around mixingit up. Now we get to the heresy bit. I KNOW all that has been said about thefunction of Hardener in the photo process, and how it's supposed to funtionto toughen the protein phase of the surface emulsion of film, and I KNOWhowit cannot therefore have any effect at all on bluing nickel silver, and IKNOW that anybody who thinks that it does or can possibly improve thebluingmust be (a) stupid (b) mislead (c) inept (d) in cloud cuckoo land (e) awanker, or (f) all of the above! But it does! Cheers Peter abcdef from jojo@ipa.net Tue Mar 5 21:45:57 2002 g263ju801180 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:45:56 -0600 helo=default) id 16iSNH-0007fW-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 22:45:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Thy wanketh, also. M-D Dear Dr. McKean: OK, let's get this straight. Only a stupid wanker (etc) would say the hardenerHELPs the bluing. Butwhat am I if I've used Kodak powdered fixer (mixed double strength), whichincludes a hardener, andfound that it still works OK? I kind of like the sound of "Wanker" but amunsure where I stand. Signed, Mixed Up In MIssouri from rextutor@yahoo.com Tue Mar 5 21:56:58 2002 g263uu801683 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:56:57 -0600 05 Mar 2002 19:56:56 PST Subject: RE: replacing strip Rodmakers BobI have never heard of Martin-Darrell's new heattreating set ups. What are they , where can we see oneTIA--- Bob Maulucci wrote: Bruce. I ususally bind an extra piece to the outsideof the bundle when Iheat treat. You might want to seek out one ofMartin-Darrell's new heattreating set ups. They are extruded metal(aluminum?) that nestle the stripswhen put in the oven. I just got mine MOnday, butman they look nice. Theyshould work as well for one strip as they do 6.M-D, any ideasBob-----Original Message----- From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Of Bruce CombestSent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:55 PM Subject: replacing strip I am new to this endeavor and have some questions. When you have final planned a strip and decidethat it is sub-standard andyou wish to replace it with another strip, how doyou heat treat a singlestrip and what is the procedure? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from rextutor@yahoo.com Tue Mar 5 22:07:58 2002 g2647v802161 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:07:57 -0600 05 Mar 2002 20:07:57 PST Subject: replacing strip BruceI used to make 7 strips for 6 strips rods - in fact onmy first 6 rods. I never used them and made a sectionout of them. Then I made several rods without problemsuntil I cut a very thin tip section with a plane. Iused two pieces of fresh bamboo with outsides/ enamlefacing up and down in the oven. It worked with about1/2 the time for the 6 sections. But I did watch thebake carefully for the correct color. I pulled themout a few times and rotated as well as turned themover (like Garrison).good luck __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Mar 5 22:10:38 2002 g264Aa802357 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:10:37 -0600 petermckean@netspace.net.au Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer I'd have thought so too but I do have to wonder why the hardener would be of any use in the bluing process, I haven't tried the hardener as Peter obviously has though.I wonder if it separates out, jells and forms a sort of barrier over the bluing?One thing's for sure and that's the Ilford hardener does make a nice finish. Tony At 10:00 PM 3/5/02 -0500, KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: I thought Peter was being just a little too harsh on himself, especially thepart about being a wanker... [:)] In a message dated 03/05/2002 5:28:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,channer@frontier.net writes: Peter;Quit beating around the bush and come to the point, we're all wonderingwhat you really think!LOLjohn Peter McKean wrote: Kyle Just swab the stuff on with a cotton bud - "Q-tip", I believe you knowthemas; move the solution around, and rinse it off under running water whenyouhave got the darkness you need. Couple of minutes, tops. Buy Ilford fixer. It's liquid, and saves a lot of buggerising aroundmixingit up. Now we get to the heresy bit. I KNOW all that has been said about thefunction of Hardener in the photo process, and how it's supposed tofuntionto toughen the protein phase of the surface emulsion of film, and I KNOW howit cannot therefore have any effect at all on bluing nickel silver, and I KNOW that anybody who thinks that it does or can possibly improve thebluingmust be (a) stupid (b) mislead (c) inept (d) in cloud cuckoo land (e) awanker, or (f) all of the above! But it does! Cheers Peter abcdef ----------------------- Headers --------------------------------Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg01.mx.aol.com (rly-yg01.mail.aol.com 0305202759; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:27:59 -0500Received: from cadmium.frontier.net (cadmium.frontier.net 0305202737; Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:27:37 -0500Received: from frontier.net (ppp29.pm3-06.durango.frontier.net [66.118.194. Message-ID: Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 18:28:01 -0700From: channer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en]C-CCK-MCD NS4xx/Winxx/EZN (Win95; U)X-Accept- Language: en Cc: KyleDruey@aol.com, rodmakers Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak FixerReferences: mckean> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Mar 5 22:23:28 2002 g264NQ802858 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:23:26 -0600 Subject: RE: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Dear Mixed Up In Missouri,the sound of the word wanker may seem to those unaccustomed to it'susage be sweet to the ear but in fact it's best to not aspire to be one.It denotes a combination of jerkoff/dick head and general walloper. It's worse than being a "wally" and even worse again than being a "steamingwally". These terms are never used as friendly gestures as are being called a "stupid bast_rd", wombat, wanker (but only when said with a smile) etc.It's all very confusing and indeed seemingly contradictory, as far as I know there is no dictionary to assist nor courses to take to get a real grasp of the colourful use of Strine except to live here a while.I do think Peter was being a bit hard on himself. Tony At 09:36 PM 3/5/02 -0600, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Dear Dr. McKean: OK, let's get this straight. Only a stupid wanker (etc) would say the hardener HELPs the bluing. But what am I if I've used Kodak powdered fixer (mixed double strength), which includes a hardener, and found that it still works OK? I kind of like the sound of "Wanker" but am unsure where I stand. Signed, Mixed Up In MIssouri -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 4:05 PM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Kyle Just swab the stuff on with a cotton bud - "Q-tip", I believe you know themas; move the solution around, and rinse it off under running water when youhave got the darkness you need. Couple of minutes, tops. Buy Ilford fixer. It's liquid, and saves a lot of buggerising around mixingit up. Now we get to the heresy bit. I KNOW all that has been said about thefunction of Hardener in the photo process, and how it's supposed tofuntionto toughen the protein phase of the surface emulsion of film, and I KNOWhowit cannot therefore have any effect at all on bluing nickel silver, and IKNOW that anybody who thinks that it does or can possibly improve thebluingmust be (a) stupid (b) mislead (c) inept (d) in cloud cuckoo land (e) awanker, or (f) all of the above! But it does! Cheers Peter abcdef /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from rodwrapp@swbell.net Tue Mar 5 22:44:15 2002 g264iE803628 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:44:14 -0600 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer KyleDruey@aol.com Where do you get this Kodak Fixer?? Thanks Dave----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Exactly. I don't bother bluing ferrules until they're mounted now. It'stoo much bother to try to clean up the tabs without messing up the bluing.I just swab on the fixer before I wrap them. -- Robert----- Original Message -----From: "Peter McKean" Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 2:05 PMSubject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Kyle Just swab the stuff on with a cotton bud - "Q-tip", I believe you know them as; move the solution around, and rinse it off under running water when you have got the darkness you need. Couple of minutes, tops. Buy Ilford fixer. It's liquid, and saves a lot of buggerising around mixing it up. Now we get to the heresy bit. I KNOW all that has been said about thefunction of Hardener in the photo process, and how it's supposed to funtion to toughen the protein phase of the surface emulsion of film, and I KNOW how it cannot therefore have any effect at all on bluing nickel silver, and I KNOW that anybody who thinks that it does or can possibly improve the bluing must be (a) stupid (b) mislead (c) inept (d) in cloud cuckoo land (e) awanker, or (f) all of the above! But it does! Cheers Peter abcdef from KyleDruey@aol.com Tue Mar 5 23:53:58 2002 g265rv805343 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2002 23:53:57 -0600 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:53:49 - Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer just for the record, I think the good Doctor McKean referred to himself as a stupid, misleading, inept, in cloud cuckoo land, type of wanker... [:)] This really is the worst kind. But he seems to have his blueing down cold. In a message dated 03/05/2002 7:37:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, KlingB@health.missouri.edu writes: Dear Dr. McKean:OK, let's get this straight. Only a stupid wanker (etc) would say the hardener HELPs the bluing. But what am I if I've used Kodak powdered fixer(mixed double strength), which includes a hardener, and found that it still works OK? I kind of like the sound of "Wanker" but am unsure where Istand.Signed, from petermckean@netspace.net.au Wed Mar 6 04:16:37 2002 g26AGZ810198 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 04:16:35 -0600 g26AGPR27522; Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Barry Now that's really interesting! The Kodak product contains hardener, does it really? I have spoken to somany people who use the Kodak stuff, and they have very consistent results. I started to use it because the bluing kit that REC sells contains Part Aand Part B, which are fixer and hardener. They were helpful enough not tosell me any, because they thought it was a little silly to be sending fixeracross the world, but just told me what the parts were. I used the Ilford product, because I have heaps of their X-ray fixer andhardener always on hand. I get the feeling that Kodak has probably got aless firm grip on the market here than in the US, so it is as easy to getone as the other. And fixer is pretty much fixer. Now I am going to have to go out and get some of the Kodak stuff to try,aren't I? Cheers Peter from kenealyj@gwi.net Wed Mar 6 04:40:35 2002 g26AeY810830 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 04:40:34 -0600 ,"Rodmakers" Subject: Re: replacing strip I just got my set this past Monday, and they are pretty nifty! I haven'tused them yet, but I can see how they may revolutionize heat treating. and,yes, M-D gives me half his profit and promised me his first born.They are extruded aluminum and come 6' long(you cut to your desiredlength). from an end view, they look like a snowflake. they have six "V" s that runthe length and you bind the strips into each "V" and put them in the oven.A set is 3, 1 for butt and 2 tips.I'm in central Maine, if that helps you. John K----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: replacing strip BobI have never heard of Martin-Darrell's new heattreating set ups. What are they , where can we see oneTIA--- Bob Maulucci wrote: Bruce. I ususally bind an extra piece to the outsideof the bundle when Iheat treat. You might want to seek out one ofMartin-Darrell's new heattreating set ups. They are extruded metal(aluminum?) that nestle the stripswhen put in the oven. I just got mine MOnday, butman they look nice. Theyshould work as well for one strip as they do 6.M-D, any ideasBob-----Original Message----- From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Of Bruce CombestSent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:55 PM Subject: replacing strip I am new to this endeavor and have some questions. When you have final planned a strip and decidethat it is sub-standard andyou wish to replace it with another strip, how doyou heat treat a singlestrip and what is the procedure? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from DCURTIS@satx.rr.com Wed Mar 6 05:31:12 2002 g26BVB812123 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 05:31:11 -0600 g26BX7hw006972 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 05:33:14 -0600 Subject: RE: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer This is the definition from Encarta. wanker wank.er [wangkr ] (plural wank.ers) noun U.K. Australia, New Zealand (taboo) 1. a taboo term for somebody who masturbates 2. a taboo term for an unpleasant, self-indulgent, pretentious, or arrogantperson [Mid-20th century] from bob@downandacross.com Wed Mar 6 05:57:44 2002 g26Bvh812997 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 05:57:44 -0600 "Rodmakers" Subject: RE: Degloss Varnish Dennis:I do not do this to my finish, but I think the recommended way is to use theRottenstone with an oil of some sort. The only thing else I can say is thatin my few attempts to use semi gloss, I think buffing down from gloss ispreferrable to using the semi. That stuff is hard to work with.Best regards,Bob Subject: Re: Degloss Varnish Bob, Please expain the procedure for using both rottenstone and pumice stone.How do you use pumice to remove slight blemishes without deglossing? Ihavenever used either. Dennis Bertram-----Original Message-----From: Bob Maulucci Subject: RE: Degloss Varnish Rottenstone?-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:58 PM Subject: Degloss Varnish I am new to this endeavor and have another question. I have used spar varnish in a dip tank and am pleased with thecoverage but is there a good way to de-gloss the hight sheen on the finalcoat? Dennis:I do notdo = finish, but I think the recommended way is to use the Rottenstone with = some sort. The only thing else I can say is that in my few attempts to = gloss, I think buffing down from gloss is preferrable to using the semi. = stuff is hard to work with.Best Bob 8:18 = RodmakersSubject: Re: Degloss Varnish = Bob, Please expain the procedure for using both = Dennis Bertram -----Original = bcombest@iclub.org = <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, March 05, 2002 7:22 PMSubject: RE: Degloss= Rottenstone? -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.w= = CombestSent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:58 = RodmakersSubject: Degloss Varnish I am new to this endeavor and = question. I have used spar varnish in a dip = pleased with the coverage but is there a good way to de-gloss the = coat? from bob@downandacross.com Wed Mar 6 06:01:40 2002 g26C1d813259 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 06:01:39 -0600 , "Rodmakers" Subject: RE: replacing strip Rex, that's it. Maybe M-D will give details or if he is having moreextruded.Bob -----Original Message----- RodmakersSubject: Re: replacing strip I just got my set this past Monday, and they are pretty nifty! I haven'tused them yet, but I can see how they may revolutionize heat treating. and,yes, M-D gives me half his profit and promised me his first born.They are extruded aluminum and come 6' long(you cut to your desiredlength). from an end view, they look like a snowflake. they have six "V" s that runthe length and you bind the strips into each "V" and put them in the oven.A set is 3, 1 for butt and 2 tips.I'm in central Maine, if that helps you. from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Wed Mar 6 06:26:42 2002 g26CQf813797 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 06:26:41 -0600 g26CQfdd019535 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:26:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Grizzley 3/4" bit Tony, Yes I did. Thanks for the information. As usual, this group comes through again, with the folks that come up with the ideas, and the folks like Todd that manage a place to put all this stuff. Great work guys! Mark At 06:27 PM 3/5/2002 -0600, you wrote: MarkWere you able to get them from Todd's site. If not, let me know.Tony Mark Wendt wrote: Tony, I'd be interested in taking a peek at the setup. Thanks,Mark At 09:05 AM 3/3/02 -0600, you wrote: That is what I use and I find it to be just fine.If you would like to see the set up and results I can send you someshots.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com earsdws@duke.edu wrote: Gang,A while back someone described using the Grizzley 3/4" tumbnail(C1215)bit for mortising reel seats. I can't recall how successful theenterprise was. Anyone out there have any experience with this, orsimilar bits?Thanks, dws. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Mar 6 06:33:50 2002 g26CXm814093 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 06:33:48 -0600 "Kling, Barry W." Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer g26CXo814094 This below is from Ilford's site.As you'd be aware there are quite a few different products made by Ilford including different fixers and hardeners as well as films and papers so what is recommended for one is not necessarily recommended for all and the requirements vary depending upon the task required.To add to that some chemicals are recommended for negs, some for printsand also some will do both. In Peter's case of developing x-ray pics these are basically negatives that will be experiencing a lot of handling so the resin, medium and processing are all geared that way and the use of a hardener is required.As you'll read below if you get that far using a hardener is not recommended in some cases because it doesn't actually add anything to the hardness of the neg and in some cases is not compatible but it all depends on the required end result and I very much doubt Ilford are making this stuff to blue NS ferrules. So, even though REC use a two part mix for their blue and Peter uses a two part mix that does not necessarily mean it's required but it does depend on what fixer you use.I'm using Ilford Hypam Rapid Fixer which I've always used for photography which is a non hardening fixer that fixer can be added to for negs though it's not recommended for Ilford paper prints.No matter what it does seem to me that the hardener only really hardens the coating of the paper or resin and not the blued effect on NS BUT in Peter's case using chemicals designed for use with x-rays it could be different. IMHO you don't need to use hardener if you varnish over the blued bits and pieces. Tony FIX HARDENERILFORD RAPID FIXER and ILFORD ILFOFIX II mustnot be used with fix hardeners as they are notcompatible with them. If a fix hardener is requiredthen only ILFORD HYPAM fixer can be used. AddILFORD HYPAM HARDENER to turn HYPAM into ahardening fixer.Generally for most applications modern camerafilms are sufficiently hardened at manufacture.Additional hardening from a fixer hardener is notusually needed or recommended for manualprocessing in spiral tanks or dishes/trays ormachine processing in a rotary processor, unlessthe processing temperature is above 30·C/86·F orpoor drying performance is being experienced. agent added to water, it helps the film to dryrapidly and evenly. Start by using 5ml/l of rinsewater (1+200), however the amount of ILFOTOLThe amount of HYPAM HARDENER that can beadded to the fixer is dependant on the film andprocess conditions used. In some processors thefull amount of hardener cannot be used as the fixand wash times cannot be extended adequately. Inthese circumstances we recommend starting withthe minimum amount of hardener to have someeffect. This is around 3_6mls of hardener per litreof working strength HYPAM used. This increasesthe film hardness slightly but has a negligible effecton the fix and wash efficiency.When fix and washtimes are restricted the maximum amount ofHYPAM HARDENER recommended is 10_20mls ofhardener per litre of working strength HYPAMused. This higher amount will give a definiteincrease to the hardness of the films processed andwhile fixing and washing efficiency are reducedthe films will be adequately fixed and washed formost purposes.When fix and wash times can be extended themaximum amount of HYPAM HARDENER neededto achieve fully hardened films is 1 part to 40parts working strength HYPAM. i.e. 24 ml/l. At 09:15 PM 3/6/02 +1100, Peter McKean wrote: Barry Now that's really interesting! The Kodak product contains hardener, does it really? I have spoken to somany people who use the Kodak stuff, and they have very consistentresults. I started to use it because the bluing kit that REC sells contains Part Aand Part B, which are fixer and hardener. They were helpful enough not tosell me any, because they thought it was a little silly to be sending fixeracross the world, but just told me what the parts were. I used the Ilford product, because I have heaps of their X-ray fixer andhardener always on hand. I get the feeling that Kodak has probably got aless firm grip on the market here than in the US, so it is as easy to getone as the other. And fixer is pretty much fixer. Now I am going to have to go out and get some of the Kodak stuff to try,aren't I? Cheers Peter /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Mar 6 06:36:57 2002 g26Cat814314 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 06:36:55 -0600 Subject: RE: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer This is the way the term normally applied: 2. a taboo term for an unpleasant, self-indulgent, pretentious, or arrogantperson The feeling behind the term is usually more than can be expressed in words but it depends on who and why the term is used.There is a Canadian who sometimes makes a ram raid to the list this applies to in spades. TY /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Wed Mar 6 06:48:08 2002 g26Cm7814728 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 06:48:07 -0600 Subject: RE: Degloss Varnish Organization: Wethersfield Public Schools Bruce, I lightly rub down with steal wool 00 enough to get rid of gloss and anyblemishes or dust, then polish with bowling alley wax to protect. Pete -----Original Message----- Subject: Degloss Varnish I am new to this endeavor and have another question. I have used spar varnish in a dip tank and am pleased with the coveragebut is there a good way to de-gloss the hight sheen on the final coat? Message Bruce, lightly rub down with steal wool 00 enough to get rid of gloss and any = or dust, then polish with bowling alley wax to =protect. Pete -----Original Message----- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = On Behalf Of Bruce CombestSent: Tuesday, March05, = I am new to this endeavor and have = question. I have used spar varnish in a dip = pleased with the coverage but is there a good way to de-gloss the = on the final coat? from aebersold@ou.edu Wed Mar 6 07:01:49 2002 g26D1n815380 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:01:49 -0600 id ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:01:48 -0600 Dennis Bertram , bcombest@iclub.org,Rodmakers Subject: RE: Degloss Varnish this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Moisten a small piece of felt, actually don't have it dripping but put agood amount of linseed oil on it. put on the felt enough Rottenstone sothat you can't see any powder. Rub the finish until you get the look youwant. Wipe with mineral spirits. I use Behlen Buffer's Polish. It comesin #1, #2, #3 and finishing. #1 will put a satin sheen on the finish. Workyour way up the numbers until you have the finish you are looking for. Ifyou go all the way it will shine/gloss better than when you started becauseyou will have rubbed out any minute inperfections-dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Degloss Varnish Dennis:I do not do this to my finish, but I think the recommended way is to use theRottenstone with an oil of some sort. The only thing else I can say is thatin my few attempts to use semi gloss, I think buffing down from gloss ispreferrable to using the semi. That stuff is hard to work with.Best regards, Bob Subject: Re: Degloss Varnish Bob, Please expain the procedure for using both rottenstone and pumice stone.How do you use pumice to remove slight blemishes without deglossing? Ihavenever used either. Dennis Bertram -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Degloss Varnish Rottenstone? -----Original Message----- Subject: Degloss Varnish I am new to this endeavor and have another question. I have used spar varnish in a dip tank and am pleased with the coverage butis there a good way to de-gloss the hight sheen on the final coat? Moisten a small piece of felt, actually don't have it dripping but put a you you started because you will have rubbed out any minute inperfections -----Original Message-----From: Bob Maulucci 06, 2002 5:57 RodmakersSubject: RE: DeglossVarnishDennis:I do not dothis to my finish, but I think the recommended way is to use the Rottenstone with anoil of some sort. The only thing else I can say is that in my few attempts touse semi gloss, I think buffing down from gloss is preferrable to using the semi. That stuff is hard to work with.Best regards, Bob Dennis Bertram 8:18 RodmakersSubject: Re: Degloss Varnish Bob, Please expain the procedure for using both rottenstoneand without Dennis Bertram -----Original Message-----From: bcombest@iclub.org Rodmakers Tuesday, March 05, 2002 7:22 PMSubject: RE:Degloss Varnish Rottenstone? -----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of Bruce CombestSent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:58 I am new to this endeavor and have another question. I have used spar varnish in a dip tank and am pleased with the coverage but is there a good way to de-gloss the hight sheen on the final coat? from aport@si.rr.com Wed Mar 6 07:15:38 2002 g26DFb816771 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:15:37 -0600 Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:15:33 -0500 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Degloss Varnish Bruce,I have a block of wood with a 1/2" thick slab of felt glued to it =that I use for rubbing out the finish on cabinetwork. I apply some =mineral oil to it and dab it into some rottenstone and rub it lengthwise =on the strip, counting the passes so as to get all sides to the same =point. Works for me!Art Bruce, glued to it that I use for rubbing out the finish on cabinetwork. I = mineral oil to it and dab it into some rottenstone and rub it lengthwise = strip, counting the passes so as to get all sides to the same point. = me!Art from mmihalas@mindspring.com Wed Mar 6 07:24:13 2002 g26DOC817298 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:24:12 -0600 helo=smaug) id 16ibOt-0001xh-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 08:24:12 -0500 Subject: Removing Ferrules I just glued my first set of ferrules on last night and I am not all thatpleased with how they turned out. The tabs didn't flatten against the rodlike they should have. I guess because I used cotton thread to bind them? I glued the ferrules with Devcon 5-minute. Is there a way to remove themeasily and cleanly without damage to the cane? Thanks, Mike Mihalas from lblove@omniglobal.net Wed Mar 6 07:39:28 2002 g26DdS817883 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:39:28 -0600 (63.114.42.80) Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer but is there a rabbit on the bottom of the bowl... *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 3/6/02 at 12:53 AM KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: just for the record, I think the good Doctor McKean referred to himselfas a stupid, misleading, inept, in cloud cuckoo land, type of wanker... [:)] from kenealyj@gwi.net Wed Mar 6 07:52:01 2002 g26Dq0818436 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:52:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules Mike, the 5 minute loosens easily with a bit of heat, like from an alcohol lamp.It doesn't take much. John K----- Original Message ----- Subject: Removing Ferrules I just glued my first set of ferrules on last night and I am not all thatpleased with how they turned out. The tabs didn't flatten against the rodlike they should have. I guess because I used cotton thread to bind them? I glued the ferrules with Devcon 5-minute. Is there a way to remove themeasily and cleanly without damage to the cane? Thanks, Mike Mihalas from cw@vanion.com Wed Mar 6 07:58:03 2002 g26Dw2818809 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:58:03 -0600 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:03:00 -0700 Subject: Thanks I really appreciate all the imfo, and advice on the Bellinger Rough-out =Beveler. All you guys are great. This site is wonderful. Thanks, Chad I really appreciate all the imfo, = the Bellinger Rough-out Beveler. All you guys are great. This site is = Thanks, Chad from jojo@ipa.net Wed Mar 6 08:11:43 2002 g26EBh819466 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:11:43 -0600 helo=default) id 16ic8n-0006XJ-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 09:11:37 -0500 Subject: Heat Treating Fixtures Well, John pretty much summed it up. With the fixtures the way they are,one can do individualstrips or any number up to six. Besides this, they conduct heat directly intoand throughout thestrips, rather than have them exposed only on the enamel side, plus thebound bundle is as straightas can be, without having to straighten it after binding.They are made of 6063 T5 aluminum alloy, stress relieved, and anodized.These are for hex rods, or60Ÿ strips only, but quads will be available in the coming months. Thediameter of each fixture isapprox. .541 x 6' in length. As John pointed out, they can be cut to length tosuit.They come in sets of 3, but more pieces are available. I have approx. 150pieces left. If anyone isinterested, please contact me off list. M-D Rex, that's it. Maybe M-D will give details or if he is having moreextruded.Bob I just got my set this past Monday, and they are pretty nifty! I haven'tused them yet, but I can see how they may revolutionize heat treating. and,yes, M-D gives me half his profit and promised me his first born.They are extruded aluminum and come 6' long(you cut to your desiredlength). from an end view, they look like a snowflake. they have six "V" s that runthe length and you bind the strips into each "V" and put them in the oven.A set is 3, 1 for butt and 2 tips.I'm in central Maine, if that helps you. from Jkvseafood@aol.com Wed Mar 6 08:25:18 2002 g26EPH820723 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:25:17 -0600 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:25:04 -0500 Subject: web address does anyone have ron kusse's web or email address? john from bhoy551@earthlink.net Wed Mar 6 08:27:58 2002 g26ERv821014 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:27:57 -0600 Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:27:54 -0500 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: replacing strip FILETIME=[1A997CE0:01C1C51B] I routed shallow v-grooves in a long piece of wood and bind them into that. Somebody suggested this in a planing form several issues ago, but he used a maple dowel. Couldn't figure out how to rout a straight groove in a dowel. bill At 06:48 PM 3/5/2002 -0600, Steven trauthwein wrote: Bruce, I have taken a number of strips from the original culm and bundled them up as well as possible to heat treat for one. I now carry four extra strips all the way through the rod building process to rough planing in case I need extras. I will have to make a rod from the remainders some day. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO----- Original Message -----From: Bruce Combest Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 11:54 AMSubject: replacing strip I am new to this endeavor and have some questions. When you have final planned a strip and decide that it is sub-standard and you wish to replace it with another strip, how do you heat treat a single strip and what is the procedure? from ttalsma@macatawa.org Wed Mar 6 08:45:42 2002 g26Ejf822358 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:45:41 -0600 id ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:38:23 -0500 id F563CHPK; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:38:13 -0500 Subject: Re: web address http://www.ronkusse.com/ Jkvseafood@aol.com wrote: does anyone have ron kusse's web or email address? john -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Mar 6 08:48:52 2002 Received: from g26Emq822626 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 2002 08:48:51 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 Message-ID:X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Touch Up with KodakFixer Thread-Index: AcHFA5Z6uTC5TDDjEda4KQBglOouXwAGhM9A From: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 200214:48:51.0610 (UTC) FILETIME=[07F25FA0:01C1C51E] Content-Transfer- 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Thanks very much. I find thisvery reassuring. I am called much worse most days - but then I work at aUniversity. Barry -----Original Message----- From: Darrin Curtis This is the definition from Encarta. wanker wank.er [wangkr ] (pluralwank.ers) noun U.K. Australia, New Zealand (taboo) 1. a taboo term forsomebody who masturbates 2. a taboo term for an unpleasant, self-indulgent, pretentious, or arrogant person [Mid-20th century] >FromKlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Mar 6 08:48:53 2002 Received: from umh- g26Emq822628 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 2002 08:48:51 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: X- MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Thread- Index:AcHE9/3NuTCkwDDjEda4KQBglOouXwAJAJZg From: "Kling, Barry W." Cc: "rodmakers"X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 200214:48:51.0267 (UTC) FILETIME=[07BE0930:01C1C51E] Content-Transfer- 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Peter -- Now that Tony Y.has educated me about wankers, let me say that there are various chemicalsused as hardener in fixers, which may have different effects on bluing. Anyfixer with the traditional fixing compound (I believe it is sodiumthiophosphate, but so-called rapid fixers use a different thiophosphate therest of which escapes me at the moment, I can look it up if anyone cares)should work. Have you found that the liquid hardeners actually interfere withthe blueing, or merely don't help? My guess would be they simply don't helpbut do no harm, but I'm not clear on what you experienced. Did you use rapidor regular fixer? The Kodak powder I used is a regular fixer, but they alsomake two-part liquid rapid fixer with separate hardener. Ilford chemicals arereadily available here, too, by the way. An on-line source for any of these iswww.calumetphoto.com, for anyone who doesn't live near a photo shop sellingdarkroom supplies. Barry -----Original Message----- From: Peter McKean Fixer Barry Now that's really interesting! The Kodak product containshardener, does it really? I have spoken to so many people who use the Kodakstuff, and they have very consistent results. I started to use it because thebluing kit that REC sells contains Part A and Part B, which are fixer andhardener. They were helpful enough not to sell me any, because they thoughtit was a little silly to be sending fixer across the world, but just told me whatthe parts were. I used the Ilford product, because I have heaps of their X-rayfixer and hardener always on hand. I get the feeling that Kodak has probablygot a less firm grip on the market here than in the US, so it is as easy to getone as the other. And fixer is pretty much fixer. Now I am going to have togo out and get some of the Kodak stuff to try, aren't I? Cheers Peter >FromKlingB@health.missouri.edu Wed Mar 6 08:49:02 2002 Received: from umh- g26En1822643 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 2002 08:48:56 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: X- MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Thread- Index:AcHFCygohCPewDD6Eda4KQBglOouXwAEsKUA From: "Kling, Barry W." Cc: "rodmakers"X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 200214:48:56.0025 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A940C90:01C1C51E] Content-Transfer- 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN I think it's very clear thathardener in fixer does NOTHING to harden nickel silver. It's made to harden agel-like emulsion of silver nitrate and other stuff on the surface of anegative or photographic print (not the silver itself, just the emulsion inwhich it is suspended) once it has dried. The only question is whether thehardener interferes with the darkening of the metal. BK -----Original Kling, Barry W. Cc: rodmakers Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Thisbelow is from Ilford's site. As you'd be aware there are quite a few differentproducts made by Ilford including different fixers and hardeners as well asfilms and papers so what is recommended for one is not necessarilyrecommended for all and the requirements vary depending upon the taskrequired. To add to that some chemicals are recommended for negs, some these are basically negatives that will be experiencing a lot of handling so theresin, medium and processing are all geared that way and the use of ahardener is required. As you'll read below if you get that far using a hardeneris not recommended in some cases because it doesn't actually add anythingto the hardness of the neg and in some cases is not compatible but it alldepends on the required end result and I very much doubt Ilford are makingthis stuff to blue NS ferrules. So, even though REC use a two part mix fortheir blue and Peter uses a two part mix that does not necessarily mean it'srequired but it does depend on what fixer you use. I'm using Ilford HypamRapid Fixer which I've always used for photography which is a non hardeningfixer that fixer can be added to for negs though it's not recommended forIlford paper prints. No matter what it does seem to me that the hardeneronly really hardens the coating of the paper or resin and not the blued effecton NS BUT in Peter's case using chemicals designed for use with x-rays itcould be different. IMHO you don't need to use hardener if you varnish overthe blued bits and pieces. Tony FIX HARDENER ILFORD RAPID FIXER and ILFORDILFOFIX II must not be used with fix hardeners as they are not compatiblewith them. If a fix hardener is required then only ILFORD HYPAM fixer can beused. Add ILFORD HYPAM HARDENER to turn HYPAM into a hardening fixer.Generally for most applications modern camera films are sufficientlyhardened at manufacture. Additional hardening from a fixer hardener is notusually needed or recommended for manual processing in spiral tanks ordishes/trays or machine processing in a rotary processor, unless theprocessing temperature is above 30·C/86·F or poor drying performance isbeing experienced. For a final rinse use ILFORD ILFOTOL wetting agent addedto water, it helps the film to dry rapidly and evenly. Start by using 5ml/l ofrinse water (1+200), however the amount of ILFOTOL The amount of HYPAMHARDENER that can be added to the fixer is dependant on the film andprocess conditions used. In some processors the full amount of hardenercannot be used as the fix and wash times cannot be extended adequately. Inthese circumstances we recommend starting with the minimum amount ofhardener to have some effect. This is around 3-6mls of hardener per litre ofworking strength HYPAM used. This increases the film hardness slightly buthas a negligible effect on the fix and wash efficiency. When fix and washtimes are restricted the maximum amount of HYPAM HARDENERrecommended is 10-20mls of hardener per litre of working strength HYPAMused. This higher amount will give a definite increase to the hardness of thefilms processed and while fixing and washing efficiency are reduced the filmswill be adequately fixed and washed for most purposes. When fix and washtimes can be extended the maximum amount of HYPAM HARDENER needed toachieve fully hardened films is 1 part to 40 parts working strength HYPAM.i.e. 24 ml/l. At 09:15 PM 3/6/02 +1100, Peter McKean wrote: Barry Now that's really interesting! The Kodak product contains hardener, does it really? I have spoken to somany people who use the Kodak stuff, and they have very consistentresults. I started to use it because the bluing kit that REC sells contains Part Aand Part B, which are fixer and hardener. They were helpful enough not tosell me any, because they thought it was a little silly to be sending fixeracross the world, but just told me what the parts were. I used the Ilford product, because I have heaps of their X-ray fixer andhardener always on hand. I get the feeling that Kodak has probably got aless firm grip on the market here than in the US, so it is as easy to getone as the other. And fixer is pretty much fixer. Now I am going to have to go out and get some of the Kodak stuff to try,aren't I? Cheers Peter /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Wed Mar 6 09:12:35 2002 g26FCY825056 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:12:34 -0600 HAA08364; HAA14085; g26FCk120176; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:12:25 -0800 Dennis Bertram , bcombest@iclub.org,Rodmakers Subject: RE: Degloss Varnish this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. If you use it with tres bien furniture polish (non silicone) its as easy asputting on hand lotion. In varnishing instruments I sand with 220, hit itwith 0000 steel wool and tres bien and then go over it with rotten stone andtres bien and you can comb your hair in the gloss. from start to finishtakes maybe one hour to sand and polish a upright bass. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Degloss Varnish Dennis:I do not do this to my finish, but I think the recommended way is to use theRottenstone with an oil of some sort. The only thing else I can say is thatin my few attempts to use semi gloss, I think buffing down from gloss ispreferrable to using the semi. That stuff is hard to work with.Best regards, Bob Subject: Re: Degloss Varnish Bob, Please expain the procedure for using both rottenstone and pumice stone.How do you use pumice to remove slight blemishes without deglossing? Ihavenever used either. Dennis Bertram -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Degloss Varnish Rottenstone? -----Original Message----- Subject: Degloss Varnish I am new to this endeavor and have another question. I have used spar varnish in a dip tank and am pleased with the coverage butis there a good way to de-gloss the hight sheen on the final coat? If you use it with tres bien furniture polish (non silicone) its as easy as putting on hand lotion. In varnishing instruments I sand with 220, hit it with 0000 steel wool and tres bien and then go over it with rotten stone and tres bien andyou can comb your hair in the gloss. from start to finish takes maybe one hourto sand and polish a upright bass. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair Planning 61-79 -----Original Message-----From: Bob Maulucci 06, 2002 3:57 RodmakersSubject: RE: Degloss Varnish Dennis:I do not dothis to my finish, but I think the recommended way is to use the Rottenstone with anoil of some sort. The only thing else I can say is that in my few attempts touse semi gloss, I think buffing down from gloss is preferrable to using the semi. That stuff is hard to work with.Best regards, Bob Dennis Bertram 8:18 RodmakersSubject: Re: Degloss Varnish Bob, Please expain the procedure for using both rottenstoneand without Dennis Bertram -----Original Message-----From: bcombest@iclub.org Rodmakers Tuesday, March 05, 2002 7:22 PMSubject: RE:Degloss Varnish Rottenstone? -----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of Bruce CombestSent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:58 I am new to this endeavor and have another question. I have used spar varnish in a dip tank and am pleased with the coverage but is there a good way to de-gloss the hight sheen on the final coat? from ttalsma@macatawa.org Wed Mar 6 09:45:30 2002 g26FjT827120 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:45:29 -0600 id ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:38:15 -0500 id F563CHSK; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:38:07 -0500 Subject: Chat - Brave souls needed for help I need some brave souls to help me test a new chat room. You can go tothe following address:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Cont/Chat_Room/Test_Chat/test_chat.html I'm currently out there. Thanks.-- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from bhoy551@earthlink.net Wed Mar 6 10:06:46 2002 Received: from KlingB@health.missouri.edu, "Peter McKean"From: Bill Hoy Subject: RE: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Cc: "rodmakers" format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2002 16:06:43.0186 (UTC) owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN HI Barry, It's sodiumthiosulphate. Rapid Fixer is ammonium thiosulphate. Just thought I'd clarify incase any chemists out there thought about mixing some up. No idea whatthiophosphate would do. Bill (former photographer fond of chemicals, notpixels). At 08:48 AM 3/6/2002 -0600, Kling, Barry W. wrote: Peter -- Now that Tony Y. has educated me about wankers, let me say that thereare various chemicals used as hardener in fixers, which may have different effects on bluing. Any fixer with the traditional fixing compound (I believe it is sodium thiophosphate, but so-called rapid fixers use a different thiophosphate the rest of which escapes me at the moment, I can look it up if anyone cares) should work. Have you found that the liquid hardeners actually interfere with the blueing, or merely don't help? My guess would be they simply don't help but do no harm, but I'm not clear on what you experienced. Did you use rapid or regular fixer? The Kodak powder I used is a regular fixer, but they also make two-part liquid rapid fixer with separate hardener. Ilford chemicals are readily available here, too, Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 4:15 AM Cc: rodmakersSubject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Barry Now that's really interesting! The Kodak product contains hardener, does it really? I have spoken to somany people who use the Kodak stuff, and they have very consistentresults. I started to use it because the bluing kit that REC sells contains Part Aand Part B, which are fixer and hardener. They were helpful enough not tosell me any, because they thought it was a little silly to be sending fixeracross the world, but just told me what the parts were. I used the Ilford product, because I have heaps of their X-ray fixer andhardener always on hand. I get the feeling that Kodak has probably got aless firm grip on the market here than in the US, so it is as easy to getone as the other. And fixer is pretty much fixer. Now I am going to have to go out and get some of the Kodak stuff to try,aren't I? Cheers Peter from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Wed Mar 6 10:50:04 2002 g26Go3801518 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:50:03 -0600 Subject: FW: [Fwd: E-MAIL WORM WARNING] Organization: Wethersfield Public Schools -------- Original Message -------- Subject: E-MAIL WORM WARNING Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:02:13 -0500 help_desk@bah.com Organization: BAH An e-mail worm known as the Hybrid Klez is spreading rapidly on theInternet. This e-mail worm attempts to disable anti-virus softwareinstalled on the infected computer and arrives with one of the followingsubject lines: How are you Let's be friends Darling Don't drink too much Your password Honey Some questions Please try again Welcome to my hometown the Garden of Eden introduction on ADSL Meeting notice Questionnaire Congratulations Sos! japanese girl VS playboy Look,my beautiful girl friend Eager to see you Spice girls' vocal concert Japanese lass' sexy pictures The body text may be blank. The attached filename is random and may havea PIF, SCR, EXE, or BAT extension. If you receive this message, do not open it and delete it immediately.ZDNet and Symantec provideadditional information on this worm on their websites. To help protect yourself from virus and worm attacks, be sure that thelatest virus definitions from Norton Anti-Virus are installed on yourcomputer. You must then run the virus scan to ensure your computer isprotected. For instructions on how to run Live Update, click on theappropriate link below. * Click here to runLive Update forWindows2000 * Click here to runLive Update forWindows95/98 If you have questions or need assistance, please contact the Help Deskat 1- 877-927-8278. Message E-MAIL WORM WARNING Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:02:13 -0500 "Corporate Systems" help_desk@bah.com BAHAn e-mail worm known as the Hybrid Klez is spreading rapidly on the = This e-mail worm attempts to disable anti-virus software installed on = How are you Let's be friends Darling Don't drink too much= Your password Honey Some questions Please try again = to my hometown the Garden of Eden introduction on ADSL = notice Questionnaire Congratulations Sos! japanese girl= playboy Look,my beautiful girl friend Eager to see you Spice = The body text may be blank. The attached filename is random and may = If you receive this message, do not open it and delete it = and Sy= To help protect yourself from virus and worm attacks, be sure that = virus definitions from Norton Anti-Virus are installed on your computer. = instructions on how to run Live Update, click on the appropriate link = Click = Click = Live Update for Windows 95/98 If you have questions or = assistance, please contact the Help= at 1-877-927-8278. from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Mar 6 12:04:46 2002 g26I4j805844 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:04:46 -0600 Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:06:28 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Chat - Brave souls needed for help Hi Todd,went there but saw no one,Shawn Todd Talsma wrote: I need some brave souls to help me test a new chat room. You can go tothe following address: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Cont/Chat_Room/Test_Chat/test_chat.html I'm currently out there. Thanks.--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction from rextutor@yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 12:12:30 2002 g26ICT806316 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:12:29 -0600 06 Mar 2002 10:12:28 PST Subject: Re: Chat - Brave souls needed for help I went there last night ( lost track and thought itwas Wednesday ) no one there . Hit self on foreheadand remembered planned chat was tommorrow.I went again today and it seems to be working.--- Todd Talsma wrote: I need some brave souls to help me test a new chatroom. You can go tothe following address: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Cont/Chat_Room/Test_Chat/test_chat.html I'm currently out there. Thanks.-- Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from kenealyj@gwi.net Wed Mar 6 13:44:45 2002 g26Jii810739 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:44:44 -0600 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:44:43 -0500 Subject: Wilmington show Hi All, I have a booth(Mountain Valley Flies) at the Fly Fishing Expo in =Wilmington, MA this weekend. If anyone is planning on attending, please look me up so we can say ="hi." John K Hi All, I have a booth(Mountain Valley = Fly Fishing Expo in Wilmington, MA this weekend. If anyone is planning on attending, = up so we can say "hi." JohnK from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Wed Mar 6 14:45:09 2002 g26Kj9816300 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:45:09 -0600 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 15:45:11 -0500 Subject: Wilmington show: Hi list, I will have booth at show, if you attend look for Upstream Custom Rods, hopeto see you there. Tim. Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRod Maker name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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 from ttalsma@macatawa.org Wed Mar 6 14:50:49 2002 g26Kom817511 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:50:48 -0600 id ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 15:43:34 -0500 id F563CH65; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 15:43:26 -0500 Subject: Chat and all that OK. Thanks to everyone who stopped by the chat room to test it for me. We've had a few glitches, but overall, it seemed to work well. There is a scheduled chat set for tonight at 10pm Eastern time. Soundslike Harry, Ralph etal have some stuff cooked up, so let's see how itflies tonight. The new link to get directly into the chat room is as follows: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Cont/Chat_Room/chat_room.html Please be sure to read the information about the nicknames. Have fun and "see" you tonight.-- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from HalManas@aol.com Wed Mar 6 15:59:46 2002 Received: from imo- g26Lxj822495 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id 4.cb.1e799b9e (4543) for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN List: I have not been veryhappy with my torch and I went by Harbor Freight today to see what theyhave. I remember that Onis (I think) uses one from there. I found a long onethat connects to a large tank like you use on a grill. It is #36346 and has anend that looks like a can. It is made in Italy and has the name Dealgas Co. &C. on the packaging. Does anyone use this one? Does it put out enough heat?Do you have any other suggestions? Thanks in advance, Hal >Frombdcbfr@chartermi.net Wed Mar 6 16:02:53 2002 Received: from proxy1-grandhaven0.chartermi.net (24.247.15.40.gha.mi.chartermi.net "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: Chat - Brave souls needed for help Was there during lunch with many sage (No, Not SAGE) rodmakers. Much funwas had at Bob N.'s expense. Hope he is able to join us there sometime anddefend himself. BC----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Chat - Brave souls needed for help I went there last night ( lost track and thought itwas Wednesday ) no one there . Hit self on foreheadand remembered planned chat was tommorrow.I went again today and it seems to be working.--- Todd Talsma wrote: I need some brave souls to help me test a new chatroom. You can go tothe following address: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Cont/Chat_Room/Test_Chat/test_chat.html I'm currently out there. Thanks.--Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from thardy@blarg.net Wed Mar 6 17:33:12 2002 g26NXB827081 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:33:12 -0600 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 15:33:11 - for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 15:33:10 -0800User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook- Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Torch for flaming understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I use that one, and it seems to be just about right. When you hit the airlever on it it blasts way hotter than you would ever need. I use it onlyoutdoors on rainy days. A Pyromaniac's dream. Be careful! Tom Hardy From: HalManas@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:59:33 EST Subject: Torch for flaming List:I have not been very happy with my torch and I went by Harbor Freighttoday to see what they have. I remember that Onis (I think) uses one fromthere. I found a long one that connects to a large tank like you use on agrill. It is #36346 and has an end that looks like a can. It is made inItaly and has the name Dealgas Co. & C. on the packaging. Does anyone usethis one? Does it put out enough heat? Do you have any othersuggestions?Thanks in advance, Hal Re: Torch for flaming I use that one, and it seems to be just about right. When you hit the a=ir lever on it it blasts way hotter than you would ever need. I use it only =outdoors on rainy days. A Pyromaniac's dream. Be careful! Tom Hardy uses=one from use on a It is made in es anyone use oth= from canazon@mindspring.com Wed Mar 6 17:45:09 2002 g26Nj9827717 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:45:09 -0600 helo=oemcomputer) id 16il5R-0004Aa-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:44:45 -0500 , Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer And it doesn't mark the cane? dave,i just did some up last nite. no, it doesn't affect the cane. although idon't know if it will do anything to the epoxy i mounted the ferrules with.mike from bhoy551@earthlink.net Wed Mar 6 17:54:10 2002 g26Ns9828234 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 17:54:09 - helo=bhoy.earthlink.net) id 16ilES-0001WO-00 for RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 15:54:05 -0800 Subject: ferrule station cutters Has anyone had any experience with Dave LeClair's new version of his ferrule station cutters? Would there be any advantage for a part-time (4-8 rods a year) maker? I've used dave's stuff before, and it's all top notch, just wondering if the improvements would be worth the higher price. I appreciate hardened cutting edges and micro tolerances, but is there much of a design difference with the original cutters which are still available? Thanks, Bill from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Wed Mar 6 18:23:24 2002 g270NN829223 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:23:23 -0600 Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:23:14 -0800 Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules FILETIME=[458EDEB0:01C1C56E] Heat them gently, then put them in a cup of ice for several minutes. Youwill be surprised how little heat it takes. Do not overdo the heat or youwill melt the solder joints (if your ferrules have any of those). You need avery strong thread to bind down the ferrule tabs. Kevlar works, as well asthe ferrule tab binding thread sold by Golden Witch. Do not be afraid toreally put the pressure on the tabs. You will need to clean the inside ofthe ferrules completely before reglueing. Jeff Schaeffer from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Mar 6 18:32:34 2002 g270WX829553 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:32:33 -0600 (authenticated) for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:32:31 -0800 Subject: Latest article Friends, Several folks have asked about my latest article atwww.globalflyfisher.com. My sincere thanks to Kyle Druey,Timothy Troester, and Don Anderson for their help inproviding pictures. Since I cannot remember everyone whoasked to be notified when the article came out, here's theurl for everyone:http://www.globalflyfisher.com/rodbuilding/bamboo4/ Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from channer@frontier.net Wed Mar 6 18:41:56 2002 g270ft829901 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:41:55 -0600 Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules Mike;Heat and ice, as was said, and when you reset them, get some worthwhileepoxy, 5 minute isn't any good for ferrules. Use at least 2 ton, if notAccraglas or golf club epoxy.john Mike Mihalas wrote: I just glued my first set of ferrules on last night and I am not all thatpleased with how they turned out. The tabs didn't flatten against the rodlike they should have. I guess because I used cotton thread to bind them? I glued the ferrules with Devcon 5-minute. Is there a way to remove themeasily and cleanly without damage to the cane? Thanks, Mike Mihalas from erjmjj@mhtc.net Wed Mar 6 18:51:40 2002 g270pd800318 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:51:39 -0600 Subject: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base I am looking for advise on purchasing a depth gauge and a base. Couldanybody point me in the right direction? Eric J. from bob@downandacross.com Wed Mar 6 19:08:13 2002 g2718C800927 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:08:12 -0600 6 Mar 2002 20:07:53 -0500 Subject: RE: Latest article Great job as usual Harry. Very nice pics as well.Thanks for the heads up.Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Latest article Friends, Several folks have asked about my latest article atwww.globalflyfisher.com. My sincere thanks to Kyle Druey,Timothy Troester, and Don Anderson for their help inproviding pictures. Since I cannot remember everyone whoasked to be notified when the article came out, here's theurl for everyone:http://www.globalflyfisher.com/rodbuilding/bamboo4/ Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from LECLAIR123@aol.com Wed Mar 6 19:22:42 2002 g271Mf801380 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:22:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base In a message dated 03/06/2002 7:52:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, erjmjj@mhtc.net writes: Check with Golden Witch. They carry a couple of different styles and prices. Goldenwitch.com check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Wed Mar 6 19:28:30 2002 g271ST801740 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:28:29 - by direct-pest.com [208.27.26.103] for ; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:27:12 -0500 Subject: Re: ferrule station cutters Bill: I have recently received the new ferrule station cutters from Dave LeClair,and have just completed my latest article for PowerFibers which is about theUltimate Ferrule Station Cutters. Even at 4-8 rods per year, I think it is well worth the investment. Staytuned to see the article in the Mar 15 PowerFibers Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one handand a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker----- Original Message ----- Subject: ferrule station cutters Has anyone had any experience with Dave LeClair's new version of hisferrule station cutters? Would there be any advantage for a part-time (4-8 rods a year) maker? I've used dave's stuff before, and it's all top notch, just wondering ifthe improvements would be worth the higher price. I appreciate hardenedcutting edges and micro tolerances, but is there much of a designdifference with the original cutters which are still available? Thanks, Bill from bob@downandacross.com Wed Mar 6 19:45:33 2002 g271jW802340 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:45:32 - 6 Mar 2002 20:44:54 -0500 Subject: RE: ferrule station cutters APRIL 15th. Oh please don't rush me. I need to get this mill cutting canebefore I lose my eyesight laying that beast out! LOL.Thanks Joe,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: ferrule station cutters Bill: I have recently received the new ferrule station cutters from Dave LeClair,and have just completed my latest article for PowerFibers which is about theUltimate Ferrule Station Cutters. Even at 4-8 rods per year, I think it is well worth the investment. Staytuned to see the article in the Mar 15 PowerFibers Joe from robertgkope@attbi.com Wed Mar 6 20:37:05 2002 g272b4803448 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:37:04 -0600 Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer As others have said, it doesn't seem to mark the cane, though I've alwaysbeen careful to try and keep the fixer off of the cane while bluing, andrinsed it thoroughly with water when I reached the shade I wanted. -- Robert----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer And it doesn't mark the cane?-----Original Message-----From: Robert Kope KyleDruey@aol.com Cc: rodmakers Date: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 6:56 PMSubject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Exactly. I don't bother bluing ferrules until they're mounted now. It'stoo much bother to try to clean up the tabs without messing up the bluing. I just swab on the fixer before I wrap them. -- Robert----- Original Message -----From: "Peter McKean" Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 2:05 PMSubject: Re: Touch Up with Kodak Fixer Kyle Just swab the stuff on with a cotton bud - "Q-tip", I believe you know them as; move the solution around, and rinse it off under running water when you have got the darkness you need. Couple of minutes, tops. Buy Ilford fixer. It's liquid, and saves a lot of buggerising around mixing it up. Now we get to the heresy bit. I KNOW all that has been said about thefunction of Hardener in the photo process, and how it's supposed to funtion to toughen the protein phase of the surface emulsion of film, and I KNOW how it cannot therefore have any effect at all on bluing nickel silver, and I KNOW that anybody who thinks that it does or can possibly improve the bluing must be (a) stupid (b) mislead (c) inept (d) in cloud cuckoo land (e) awanker, or (f) all of the above! But it does! Cheers Peter abcdef from channer@frontier.net Wed Mar 6 20:43:22 2002 g272hL803727 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:43:21 -0600 Subject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base Enco,MSC, McMaster-Carr, and probably Grizzly and Harbor-Freight aswell. These things are like cars, you can spend as much as you want, butall of them will most likely get you from point A to point B.john Eric Johannesen wrote: I am looking for advise on purchasing a depth gauge and a base. Couldanybody point me in the right direction? Eric J. from Troutgetter@aol.com Wed Mar 6 20:44:14 2002 g272iD803859 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:44:14 -0600 Subject: Re: Torch for flaming Be careful of this one. There was something on the list awhile back about a product recall on this unit. This is supposed to be for burning weeds, (kind of the same thing I guess!) There is another from H-F that also works fine and is for soldering pipe and what-not.Mike Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 20:50:56 2002 g272ot804339 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:50:55 -0600 Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:50:55 PST Subject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base Rodmakers discussion group jeff wagner sells a good one. timothy --- Eric Johannesen wrote: I am looking for advise on purchasing a depth gaugeand a base. Couldanybody point me in the right direction? Eric J. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from dongreife@hotmail.com Wed Mar 6 21:05:57 2002 g2735u804874 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:05:56 -0600 Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:05:50 -0800 HTTP; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 03:05:50 GMT Subject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base FILETIME=[FCC023D0:01C1C584] Grizzly, has a dial indicator (1/2") that I recently bought,, and made aholder for it on my table saw and drill press. They also have brass rods in thesizes needed for depth measurements on your planing form, that are 12"lengths and very reasonably priced,,,or you can go the 60 deg triangular Johannesen Freight as you want, but and a base. Could MSN Photos is the easiest way toshare and print your photos: Click Here from robertgkope@attbi.com Wed Mar 6 21:11:22 2002 g273BL805218 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:11:21 -0600 Thu, 7 Mar 2002 03:11:11 +0000 Subject: Re: displacing nodes Thanks Tony. This does help. Reading this and re-reading your article in Powerfibersmade me realize that I've been using a variation of "node displacing" for acouple of years, but without soaking. I have been splitting, and thencarefully filing off the enamel, just down to the fibers, at the nodes.Then I run the strips between a wood screw protruding from a block of woodand a small sanding drum in my drill press to make the strips a uniformthickness at the nodes. I can't remember who originally posted this idea,but it works great. With the strips a uniform thickness and the powerfibersintact, when you clamp the strip in the vise, it displaces the node ratherthan compressing it. One additional touch I've added is that I made a pair of covers for the jawsof my vise from a piece of aluminum angle. The covers have a couple of 45degree v- grooves in them that match up so when the jaws are closed therearesquare channels between them at a 45 degree angle running across the jawsofthe vise. The 2 sets of grooves are different depths for butts and tips,and they allow me to straighten the nodes and flatten them by just clampingthem once in the vise. This works most of the time, but sometimes I have togo back and do some additional work on them by hand, and once in a while Iwind up crushing a node. It sounds like soaking the strips will make straightening and rough planingmuch easier, regardless of the methods used for straightening. I willcertainly give it a try. -- Robert----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: displacing nodes Robert,All of this is based on un flamed rods. That isall I have made. It seems that it works on flamedrods from some of the recent posts.I found that soaking for at least four days andcutting the relief the back side of the node keepsthe bump from coming back up. I soak for five tosix days. This may not be traditional but it is alot easier on my old hands. After displacing thenode, the only thing protruding is the littleridge. That is filed off with a few strokes of thefile. If you have to take a kink out of the stripat the node, do that first then flip it to theenamel side and displace the node, all in onemotion. Leave that strip in the vise and start onthe next strip. Keep the strips that you are notworking on it the water. While the strips are wet,they are beveled and partial tapered. I guess Ihave said it a hundred times, once you plane wetstrips you will never go back to dry planingexcept for the final taper.I do two strips at a time, displace, bevel andpartial taper. When the 18 strips are finished,they are bound ( as they will be glued) with thepith side out and put in the oven to dry. They canbe air dried also. I believe with the pith sideout they dry a lot faster and more complete. Afterthe strips are dried they are pretty straight, Idon't find the bumps re appearing. I re bind inthe normal way to heat treat.The binding cord will be somewhat loose afterdrying.Now on heating the nodes, the wet strips only take30 to 45 seconds to be soft enough to displace.Not at all like dry strips. There is no burning orhardening of the node. When you plane over a wetnode it is not felt at all unless the strip is dryin the middle.I do believe the sticks need to be DRY beforefinal planing. I try to heat treat, final planeand glue all in one session. Next session, heatset, sand and apply a coat of Tung varnish to sealthe blankHope I shed some light on your questions.No pun intended, I may be all wet on this deal.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Mar 6 21:13:40 2002 g273Dd805470 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:13:39 -0600 (authenticated) for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:13:36 -0800 Subject: Chat tonight Friends, There's supposed to be a chat tonight,starting about 15 minutes ago, at Todd's site. Apologies,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from rextutor@yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 21:34:09 2002 g273Y8806107 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:34:08 -0600 06 Mar 2002 19:34:02 PST Subject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base Rodmakers discussion group I got mine at goldenwitch.com and really have likedit. --- Eric Johannesen wrote: I am looking for advise on purchasing a depth gaugeand a base. Couldanybody point me in the right direction? Eric J. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Wed Mar 6 22:22:43 2002 g274Mg807393 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:22:42 -0600 Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:22:37 -0800 Subject: Re: displacing nodes FILETIME=[B64D02A0:01C1C58F] I have been using a trick that was posted a while back. I filed a smallnotch in my vise. Split the cane, but leave the nodal ridge alone. Heat andpress in the vise, and the ridge fits into the notch. You are left with atiny ridge sticking above a very flat surface. A few hits with a small filetakes it off. It really works, and I do not remove any material on the pithside. The real advantage is that I never have to worry about gouging thecane with the big file that was needed to do the nodal ridge first. And youhardly need to remove any material. Jeff Schaeffer from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Mar 6 22:52:31 2002 g274qV808222 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:52:31 -0600 ([209.179.148.30] helo=computer) id 16iptE-0006Uk-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:52:29 -0800 Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules Mike, Make life easy for yourself and use Pliobond. Super strong and easy toremove. It has held on ferrules for decades. Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules Mike;Heat and ice, as was said, and when you reset them, get some worthwhileepoxy, 5 minute isn't any good for ferrules. Use at least 2 ton, if notAccraglas or golf club epoxy.john Mike Mihalas wrote: I just glued my first set of ferrules on last night and I am not all that pleased with how they turned out. The tabs didn't flatten against the rod like they should have. I guess because I used cotton thread to bind them? I glued the ferrules with Devcon 5-minute. Is there a way to remove themeasily and cleanly without damage to the cane? Thanks, Mike Mihalas from thardy@blarg.net Wed Mar 6 22:53:06 2002 g274r5808329 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:53:05 -0600 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:53:04 - for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:53:04 -0800User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook- Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Chat Help I can't get onto Todd's chat room at all. 'Teenchat' yes, but 'Bamboo'isn't there. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Mar 6 23:00:22 2002 g2750L808789 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 23:00:22 -0600 ([209.179.148.30] helo=computer) id 16iq0B-0006Lt-00; Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:59:40 -0800 , "Rodmakers discussion group" Subject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base You can get the dial indicator off ebay cheap from Nolan Tools. As for thebase I went with a sloted one from Munro Rod Co. It allows measureing thestrip while it sits in the form. You just do it without the tip. I do notuse a dial indicator at all to measure strips. You will know exactly howmuch more cane needs to be remove. Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- discussion group" Subject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base jeff wagner sells a good one. timothy --- Eric Johannesen wrote: I am looking for advise on purchasing a depth gaugeand a base. Couldanybody point me in the right direction? Eric J. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from thardy@blarg.net Wed Mar 6 23:04:14 2002 g2754D809094 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2002 23:04:13 -0600 Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:04:12 -0800User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook- Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Chat Help Thanks for the note. I think I'm having trouble partly because I'm on a Mac.Todd's site actually crashes me about half the time. Is there any way to godirectly to the chat site and not get there through the tips site? Tom From: "Jojo DeLancier" Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:56:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Chat Help Tom, Harry had problems, too. I don't know why some do, and some don't. It doestake a while for theapplet to load, though. What, exactly, is it doing? M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "Tom Hardy" Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 2:52 PMSubject: Chat Help I can't get onto Todd's chat room at all. 'Teenchat' yes, but 'Bamboo'isn't there. from Dennishigham@cs.com Thu Mar 7 08:22:19 2002 g27EMI817065 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:22:18 -0600 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:21:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules "You need a very strong thread to bind down the ferrule tabs. Kevlar works, as well asthe ferrule tab binding thread sold by Golden Witch. Do not be afraid toreally put the pressure on the tabs." Waxed Dental Floss works great too! Dennis from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 7 08:30:39 2002 g27EUc817478 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:30:39 -0600 helo=default) id 16iyuj-00000k-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:30:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules Old airline pilot trick. M-D "You need a very strong thread to bind down the ferrule tabs. Kevlar works, as well asthe ferrule tab binding thread sold by Golden Witch. Do not be afraid toreally put the pressure on the tabs." Waxed Dental Floss works great too! Dennis from Harris.James@ev.state.az.us Thu Mar 7 08:59:01 2002 g27Ex0818844 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:59:00 -0600 g27EvE315749 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:57:14 -0700 07:57:01 2002 -0700 with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 07:58:51 -0700 Subject: Re: displacing nodes g27Ex1818845 Guys The 45 degree groves in the vise covers is an idea I got to try. I'm going totry soaking first as well. Node work is my least favorite part of the rodmaking process. I'm all ears to anything that makes the process faster orbetter. Thanks! Jim H One additional touch I've added is that I made a pair of covers for the jawsof my vise from a piece of aluminum angle. The covers have a couple of 45degree v- grooves in them that match up so when the jaws are closed therearesquare channels between them at a 45 degree angle running across the jawsofthe vise. from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 7 09:08:24 2002 g27F8N819540 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:08:23 -0600 helo=default) id 16izVG-0001Bc-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:08:23 -0500 Subject: Flats Boots For Sale Guys, I have one pair of the Patagonia Flats Stalkers, size 12, for sale -- only wornonce. I wear an 11 -111/2, and these fit well. Retail is $120.00, I want $85.00 shipping included.Please contact me offlist. M-D from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 7 09:15:11 2002 g27FFB820047 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:15:11 -0600 helo=default) id 16izbq-0001Ts-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:15:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale That is supposed to be Marlwalker, not Flats Stalker. Close but no cee- gar,huh? ;o) M-D Guys, I have one pair of the Patagonia Flats Stalkers, size 12, for sale -- onlyworn once. I wear an 11 - 111/2, and these fit well. Retail is $120.00, I want $85.00 shippingincluded. Please contact me offlist. M-D from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 7 09:26:35 2002 g27FQZ820916 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:26:35 -0600 helo=default) id 16izmq-0007Sq-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:26:33 -0500 Subject: Other Bamboo Blanks Since the List seems to always get itself into a lather whenever someonementions the Chinesegetting into the bamboo rod market (assuming there is such a thing), Ithought I'd put this outthere for y'all, in case some of you haven't had your daily ration of emotionalturmoil. Mud Hole Custom Tackle and Rod Building Supply ( from whom I will never, everbuy anything again, andthat has nothing to do with these blanks) has for sale in their latest catalog,bamboo blanks madein Japan. IZCH is the brand name. Don't know much about them other than themarketing blatherwritten along side the ad, but the price is $495.00 for a 2/1, which is closeto what I charge($550.00). They range from 7'3" 3wt to 8'6" 6 wt. There ya' go, guys. Have fun!! ;o) M-D from bhoy551@earthlink.net Thu Mar 7 09:27:10 2002 g27FR9821012 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:27:09 -0600 Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:27:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules FILETIME=[88512EA0:01C1C5EC] Someone posted a brief message on this subject a while back. He (who?) recommended small electrical cable ties. I assume these are the ones with the slot on one end that you feed the tail end thru. I haven't tried it, but it looks promising. Does this work? I hate all those fibers embedded in the glue. Kevlar is strong, but it still leaves black fibers which have to be dealt with. Bill At 08:27 AM 3/7/2002 -0600, Jojo DeLancier wrote: Old airline pilot trick. M-D From: "You need a very strong thread to bind down the ferrule tabs. Kevlar works,as well asthe ferrule tab binding thread sold by Golden Witch. Do not be afraid toreally put the pressure on the tabs." Waxed Dental Floss works great too! Dennis from canazon@mindspring.com Thu Mar 7 09:45:17 2002 g27FjH822318 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:45:17 -0600 helo=oemcomputer) id 16j03X-0002pl-00; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:43:48 -0500 "Eric Johannesen" , ,"Rodmakers discussion group" Subject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base adam, erici have two dial indicators with 60* points broken off in the bottom ofthe indicator. panic set in as i was preparing to plane.necessity forced me to use the method you have described. i have foundthat this method is the simplest and the fastest. i just take a premeasuredstrip and lay it in the form, and subtract the indicator reading from thestrip measurement. that leaves me the depth of the form at that point. i dothis at each station. i try not to use a test strip a whole lot bigger thanthe groove in the form, especially at the tip.i originally used the method described on chris bogarts web site, but iwas using that method to measure each station and all the math took awhileto do. i think everyone should use drill rods at some point to ensure thatyour forms are accurate.mike----- Original Message ----- ; "Rodmakers discussion group" Subject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base You can get the dial indicator off ebay cheap from Nolan Tools. As for thebase I went with a sloted one from Munro Rod Co. It allows measureing thestrip while it sits in the form. You just do it without the tip. I do notuse a dial indicator at all to measure strips. You will know exactly howmuch more cane needs to be remove. Adam Vigil----- Original Message -----From: "timothy troester" discussion group" Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 6:50 PMSubject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base jeff wagner sells a good one. timothy --- Eric Johannesen wrote: I am looking for advise on purchasing a depth gaugeand a base. Could anybody point me in the right direction? Eric J. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from ttalsma@macatawa.org Thu Mar 7 09:48:58 2002 g27Fmw822737 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:48:58 -0600 id ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:41:43 -0500 id F563C2K5; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:41:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale Must have been too much shmoozing with those Yankee-Wanker- Bastardslastnight M-D. TEE HEE HEE Jojo DeLancier wrote: That is supposed to be Marlwalker, not Flats Stalker. Close but no cee- gar,huh? ;o) M-D Guys, I have one pair of the Patagonia Flats Stalkers, size 12, for sale -- onlyworn once. I wear an 11 - 111/2, and these fit well. Retail is $120.00, I want $85.00 shippingincluded. Please contact me offlist. M-D -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from tedknott@cogeco.ca Thu Mar 7 10:08:44 2002 Received: from From: "Ted" "Rodmakers discussion group" References: Subject: Re: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN When pre-fitting the ferrulesI press the tabs flat to the bamboo by ironing them with a piece of keystock.When gluing the ferrules the function of the binding cord is to hold the tabstightly in place, not to "pull" them into place. > from avyoung@iinet.net.au ThuMar 7 10:17:39 2002 Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (symphony- X-Sender:avyoung@mail.iinet.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 jojo@ipa.net From: Tony Young Subject: Re: FlatsBoots For Sale Cc: Rodmakers List In-Reply- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Boy, that's pretty savagestuff there. TY At 10:45 AM 3/7/02 -0500, Todd Talsma wrote: Must have been too much shmoozing with those Yankee-Wanker- Bastardslastnight M-D. TEE HEE HEE Jojo DeLancier wrote: That is supposed to be Marlwalker, not Flats Stalker. Close but no cee-gar, huh? ;o) M-D Guys, I have one pair of the Patagonia Flats Stalkers, size 12, for sale -- only worn once. I wear an 11 - 111/2, and these fit well. Retail is $120.00, I want $85.00 shipping included. Please contact me off list. M-D --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from ttalsma@macatawa.org Thu Mar 7 10:23:29 2002 g27GNS825084 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:23:28 -0600 id ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:16:14 -0500 id F563C2L5; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:16:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale Yeah Tony, but I was talking about me! You had to be in the chat roomlast night. It was a fun time had by all, I think. Tony Young wrote: Boy, that's pretty savage stuff there. TY At 10:45 AM 3/7/02 -0500, Todd Talsma wrote: Must have been too much shmoozing with those Yankee-Wanker- Bastardslastnight M-D. TEE HEE HEE Jojo DeLancier wrote: That is supposed to be Marlwalker, not Flats Stalker. Close but no cee-gar, huh? ;o) M-D Guys, I have one pair of the Patagonia Flats Stalkers, size 12, for sale -- only worn once. I wear an 11 - 111/2, and these fit well. Retail is $120.00, I want $85.00 shipping included. Please contact me off list. M-D --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Mar 7 10:25:10 2002 Received: from g27GP0v125932; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:25:02 -0800 Message-ID:Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:24:30 -0600 From: Harry Boyd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] Removing Ferrules References: Content-Type: fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Ted,Wish I had read this five years ago. Only on my last few rods have I finallyfigured out how to get the tabs to lie flat. And here you go sharing it withthe entire rodmakers list! :-)) I do basically the same thing as you, with a cutoff section of bamboo. I very lightly tap it with a nylon hammer, to geteverything good and tight before I bind it down. Thanks for sharing, HarryTed wrote: When pre-fitting the ferrules I press the tabs flat to the bamboo by ironingthem with a piece of keystock. When gluing the ferrules the function ofthebinding cord is to hold the tabs tightly in place, not to "pull" them intoplace. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Mar 7 10:28:16 2002 g27GSF825696 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:28:15 -0600 (authenticated) for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:28:08 -0800 Subject: Re: Latest article Folks,Several sharp-eyed listers have questioned me about thefirst photo in this article, asking if it were upside-down andbackwards. Truth is I stood on my head to take the picture,so it is right-side up.Just kidding, it WAS upside down, but now looks better, Ithink. Harry Boyd wrote: here's the url for everyone:http://www.globalflyfisher.com/rodbuilding/bamboo4/ Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from stoltz10@attbi.com Thu Mar 7 10:29:41 2002 g27GTf825934 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:29:41 -0600 Thu, 7 Mar 2002 16:29:35 +0000 Subject: Re: Latest article Great article, I did not know that web sight existed.----- Original Message ----- Subject: Latest article Friends, Several folks have asked about my latest article atwww.globalflyfisher.com. My sincere thanks to Kyle Druey,Timothy Troester, and Don Anderson for their help inproviding pictures. Since I cannot remember everyone whoasked to be notified when the article came out, here's theurl for everyone:http://www.globalflyfisher.com/rodbuilding/bamboo4/ Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Mar 7 10:31:10 2002 g27GV8826215 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:31:08 -0600 Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale g27GV9826216 I'm glad to read that or we'd have a cold wind from the North situation without him to chair it [:-)] TY At 11:19 AM 3/7/02 -0500, Todd Talsma wrote: Yeah Tony, but I was talking about me! You had to be in the chat roomlast night. It was a fun time had by all, I think. Tony Young wrote: Boy, that's pretty savage stuff there. TY At 10:45 AM 3/7/02 -0500, Todd Talsma wrote: Must have been too much shmoozing with those Yankee-Wanker-Bastards lastnight M-D. TEE HEE HEE Jojo DeLancier wrote: That is supposed to be Marlwalker, not Flats Stalker. Close but no cee-gar, huh? ;o) M-D Guys, I have one pair of the Patagonia Flats Stalkers, size 12, for sale -- only worn once. I wear an 11 - 111/2, and these fit well. Retail is $120.00, I want $85.00 shipping included. Please contact me off list. M-D --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from rcurry@ttlc.net Thu Mar 7 10:38:11 2002 g27GcB826981 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:38:11 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: re:Removing ferrules Picture hanging wire (cable actually) works well and allows you to apply more heat and tighten more, just by twisting the ends. Put one loop around the ferrule, holding both ends and slide the loop onto the tabs. Put a second turn around, still pulling tight, and then twist the ends together.-- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ > from jojo@ipa.netThu Mar 7 10:50:25 2002 Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net 0006A8-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:50:20 - 0500 Message-ID: From: References: Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Yes, Todd. I think I must stillbe drunk with all the excitement. M-D From: "Todd Talsma"Must have been too much shmoozing with thoseYankee-Wanker-Bastards last night M-D. TEE HEE HEE Jojo DeLancier wrote: That is supposed to be Marlwalker, not Flats Stalker. Close but no cee- gar,huh? ;o) M-D Guys, I have one pair of the Patagonia Flats Stalkers, size 12, for sale -- onlyworn once. I wear an 11 - 111/2, and these fit well. Retail is $120.00, I want $85.00 shippingincluded. Please contact me off list. M-D --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction from ttalsma@macatawa.org Thu Mar 7 10:57:22 2002 g27GvJ828892 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:57:19 -0600 id ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:50:04 -0500 id F563C2MY; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:49:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale Yep, I thought you and Harry were getting pretty giddy with the"Northern Experience" Jojo DeLancier wrote: Yes, Todd. I think I must still be drunk with all the excitement. M-D From: "Todd Talsma" Must have been too much shmoozing with those Yankee-Wanker- Bastardslastnight M-D. TEE HEE HEE Jojo DeLancier wrote: That is supposed to be Marlwalker, not Flats Stalker. Close but no cee-gar, huh? ;o) M-D Guys, I have one pair of the Patagonia Flats Stalkers, size 12, for sale -- onlyworn once. I wear an 11 - 111/2, and these fit well. Retail is $120.00, I want $85.00 shippingincluded. Please contact me off list. M-D --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from alan.grombacher@pioneer.com Thu Mar 7 11:01:19 2002 Received: g27H1I829459 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 Mar 2002 12:01:18 -0500 Received: from orion.phibred.com by Mar 2002 12:00:49 -0500 Received: by orion.phibred.com with Internet MailService (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:00:49 -0600 Subject: long rod tapers. Date: Thu, 7 Mar alan.grombacher@pioneer.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ fellas lately. The late Len Wright wrote about long rods. He mentioned using a10 foot Payne (a light lined rod). Does anyone know about this rod and taper?What about any other light lined rod tapers 9 feet and larger? Cheers, about any other light lined rod tapers 9 feet and Mar 7 11:03:01 2002 Received: from q4.quik.com (q4.quik.com Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:02:22 -0600 From: Harry Boyd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] ttalsma@macatawa.org CC: Rodmakers List Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale References: Content-Type: text/plain; fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Todd,Yeah, I guess we were just feeling sorry for those of you in the frozen north.High today here in Winnsboro, Louisiana, US of A is supposed to be 72*F.Partly cloudy, and I have some free time this afternoon, so lookout localbluegills and crappies. Harry PS- back to rodmaking now, okay? Todd Talsmawrote: Yep, I thought you and Harry were getting pretty giddy with the --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 7 11:11:52 2002 g27HBp800571 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:11:51 -0600 helo=default) id 16j1Qj-0002RM-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:11:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale No, Todd. That was nausea, not giddiness. Now, will someone PLEASE buy myboots? ;o) M-D Yep, I thought you and Harry were getting pretty giddy with the"Northern Experience" Jojo DeLancier wrote: Yes, Todd. I think I must still be drunk with all the excitement. M-D From: "Todd Talsma" Must have been too much shmoozing with those Yankee-Wanker- Bastardslastnight M-D. TEE HEE HEE Jojo DeLancier wrote: That is supposed to be Marlwalker, not Flats Stalker. Close but no cee-gar, huh? ;o) M-D Guys, I have one pair of the Patagonia Flats Stalkers, size 12, for sale -- onlyworn once. I wear an 11 - 111/2, and these fit well. Retail is $120.00, I want $85.00 shippingincluded. Please contact me off list. M-D --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction --Todd Talsma8412 North Maple CourtZeeland MI 49464------ web design business page: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo Tips site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Bamboo Sources site: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/home page: http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/genealogy pages: Under construction from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Thu Mar 7 11:15:45 2002 g27HFi800968 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:15:44 -0600 Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:15:35 -0800 Thu, 07 Mar 2002 17:15:35 GMT Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale FILETIME=[B1C0F2C0:01C1C5FB] Harry: weather like that. We just got through Feb with 91.9 inches of snow in thecounty next to me. We'll probably not need the lawnmower till the 4th of July. the frozen north. High today here in Partly cloudy, and I have some free time this with the Join the world's largest e-mail servicewith MSN Hotmail. ClickHere from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Thu Mar 7 11:29:40 2002 g27HTd801875 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:29:39 -0600 Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:29:34 -0800 Thu, 07 Mar 2002 17:29:34 GMT Subject: Re: long rod tapers. FILETIME=[A5ED88D0:01C1C5FD] Alan: I'm well aware of a great wet fly rod, currently owned be Reed Curry. I believeit's a 10 ft 6 wt and is a classic wet fly action. Sloooow and smooooth. Reed been posted somewhere in the archive's. This rod will roll cast like no otherI've tried and it's one I intend to build for myself someday. Sixty foot roll late Len Payne (a light What about any Join the world's largest e-mail servicewith MSN Hotmail. ClickHere from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Mar 7 11:31:59 2002 g27HVw802196 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:31:58 -0600 ([209.179.148.238] helo=computer) id 16j1jQ-0005PX-00; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:31:08 -0800 "Eric Johannesen" , ,"Rodmakers discussion group" Subject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base Opps, I meant I do not use a caliper to measure strips. Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- ; "Rodmakers discussion group" Subject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base You can get the dial indicator off ebay cheap from Nolan Tools. As for thebase I went with a sloted one from Munro Rod Co. It allows measureing thestrip while it sits in the form. You just do it without the tip. I do notuse a dial indicator at all to measure strips. You will know exactly howmuch more cane needs to be remove. Adam Vigil----- Original Message -----From: "timothy troester" discussion group" Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 6:50 PMSubject: Re: Advise on Depth Gauge and Base jeff wagner sells a good one. timothy --- Eric Johannesen wrote: I am looking for advise on purchasing a depth gaugeand a base. Couldanybody point me in the right direction? Eric J. ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from KyleDruey@aol.com Thu Mar 7 11:32:06 2002 g27HW5802217 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:32:05 -0600 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:31:15 -0500 0307123129; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:31:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale I don't how you can live in that kind of climate. I just had to turn on the lawnsprinklers again 3 weeks ago...(San Joaquin Valley in CA) In a message dated Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:16:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,"Jim Bureau" writes: Harry: Just how do you expect to skii and snowshoe in weather like that. We justgot through Feb with 91.9 inches of snow in the county next to me. We'llprobably not need the lawnmower till the 4th of July. From: Harry Boyd Rodmakers List Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:02:22 -0600 Todd, Yeah, I guess we were just feeling sorry for those of you in the frozennorth. High today here in Winnsboro, Louisiana, US of A is supposed to be 72*F. Partly cloudy, and Ihave some free time this afternoon, so lookout local bluegills and crappies. Harry PS- back to rodmaking now, okay? Todd Talsma wrote: Yep, I thought you and Harry were getting pretty giddy with the -- Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rods http://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Mar 7 11:38:14 2002 g27HcD802984 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:38:13 -0600 ([209.179.148.238] helo=computer) id 16j1qE-0001HS-00; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:38:11 -0800 Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules I do the same but use a piece a of cane with the enamel on. It presses thetabs quickly. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules Ted, Wish I had read this five years ago. Only on my last few rods have Ifinally figured out how to get the tabs to lie flat. And here you go sharing it with the entire rodmakers list! :-))I do basically the same thing as you, with a cut off section of bamboo. I very lightly tap it with a nylon hammer, to get everything good and tight before I bind it down. Thanks for sharing,Harry Ted wrote: When pre-fitting the ferrules I press the tabs flat to the bamboo by ironing them with a piece of keystock. When gluing the ferrules the function of the binding cord is to hold the tabs tightly in place, not to "pull" them into place. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church from tedknott@cogeco.ca Thu Mar 7 11:38:20 2002 g27HcK803006 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:38:20 -0600 Subject: Re: long rod tapers. Somewhere in my files I have tapers for a 9' 6" heddon #8, and a 9' 0" =#4 Leonard. is this what you are looking for? Somewhere in my files I have tapers for= for? from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Thu Mar 7 12:42:41 2002 g27Ige806073 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:42:40 -0600 Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:42:34 -0800 Thu, 07 Mar 2002 18:42:34 GMT Subject: Re: Flats Boots For Sale FILETIME=[D8EAECF0:01C1C607] Kyle: build bamboo rods, tie fly's, ice fish, skii, play hockey, snowshoe, snowmobile, doing. I always thought it would be boaring to have grown up living anywherewhere I didn't have the four seasons and especially winter to enjoy. Startcoaching your son's hockey team and you'll care less if summer ever gethere. Now that I'm getting close to retirement and don't do most of thatstuff, I'm wondering what the hell I am doing up here in gods country.Anybody know of a nice house for sale in the Florida Keys, e-mail me offlist. Jim turn on the lawn sprinklers again 3 weeks ago...(San Joaquin Valley in CA) Standard Time, "Jim Bureau" writes: weather like that. We just got through Feb with 91.9 inches of snow in thecounty next to me. We'll probably not need the lawnmower till the 4th of July. Rodmakers List those of you in the frozen north. High today here in 72*F. Partly cloudy, and I have some free time this pretty giddy with the Hotmail. Click Here Send and receive Hotmail on yourmobile device: ClickHere from kenealyj@gwi.net Thu Mar 7 14:54:06 2002 g27Ks5816265 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:54:05 -0600 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:54:04 -0500 Subject: Guillermo's Leaders Hey all, Just wanted to share: M-D sent me one of Guillermo Magarinos' (list member from =Argentina)furled leaders to try out.As you all know, things are worse than bad in Argentina and M-D, in an =effort to help a friend asked me, and I think some other list members, =to try a leader with thoughts that if I liked it, I would carry them in =my shop. I hadn't had a chance to cast it until this morning and loved it! I had =looked it over and all and it is made wonderfully. anyway, I emailed =M-D to let him know that I was interested in them. This afternoon a fellow came in to try out one of Scott's new Superply(I =know graphite-flame away!) and we got to talking leaders-he hasn't been =all that happy with what he's been using. I suggested that he try the =furled leader. We loaded up one of my 7' 4wt cane rods and went out to =cast. He had never cast a cane rod before and was a little =apprehensive. Anyway- he loved both!! He said that he would definitely =buy some of the leaders if I carry them and he ended up ordering a cane =rod also!! Not a bad day. Yes, I suppose I do(will) have a financial interest in these leaders, =but they will not make or break me and if I can help out a friend of =M-D's, all the better. John k Hey all, Just wanted to share: M-D sent me one of GuillermoMagarinos' = member from Argentina)furled leaders to try out.As you all know, things are worse than= Argentina and M-D, in an effort to help a friend asked me, and I think = other list members, to try a leader with thoughts that if I liked it, I = carry them in my shop. I hadn't had a chance to cast it until = in them. This afternoon a fellow came in to try = would definitely buy some of the leaders if I carry them and he ended up = Yes, I suppose I do(will) have a = a friend of M-D's, all the better. Johnk from OSEGAL@glcc.com Thu Mar 7 15:13:52 2002 g27LDp817673 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:13:51 -0600 with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 16:13:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Guillermo's Leaders I suppose Guillermo will read this message. If you do, please contact me. =I live in Buenos Aires, phone number (011) 4737-0422 (home), (011) =4732- 0070 (office); (15 11) 4175-9690 (mobile). Otherwise, John, Regards, Oscar "John Kenealy" 03/07/02 05:58PM >>> Hey all, Just wanted to share: M-D sent me one of Guillermo Magarinos' (list member from Argentina)furled=leaders to try out.As you all know, things are worse than bad in Argentina and M-D, in an =effort to help a friend asked me, and I think some other list members, to =try a leader with thoughts that if I liked it, I would carry them in my =shop. I hadn't had a chance to cast it until this morning and loved it! I had =looked it over and all and it is made wonderfully. anyway, I emailed M-D =to let him know that I was interested in them. This afternoon a fellow came in to try out one of Scott's new Superply(I =know graphite-flame away!) and we got to talking leaders-he hasn't been =all that happy with what he's been using. I suggested that he try the =furled leader. We loaded up one of my 7' 4wt cane rods and went out to =cast. He had never cast a cane rod before and was a little apprehensive. =Anyway- he loved both!! He said that he would definitely buy some of the =leaders if I carry them and he ended up ordering a cane rod also!! Not a =bad day. Yes, I suppose I do(will) have a financial interest in these leaders, but =they will not make or break me and if I can help out a friend of M-D's, =all the better. John k I suppose Guillermo will read this message. If you do,= contact me. I live in Buenos Aires, phone number (011) 4737-0422 (home), = 4732-0070 (office); (15 11) 4175-9690 (mobile). Otherwise, John, Regards, Oscar Hey all, Just wanted to share: M-D sent me one of GuillermoMagarinos' = member from Argentina)furled leaders to try out.As you all know, things are worse than= Argentina and M-D, in an effort to help a friend asked me, and I think = other list members, to try a leader with thoughts that if I liked it, I = carry them in my shop. I hadn't had a chance to cast it until = in them. This afternoon a fellow came in to try = = would definitely buy some of the leaders if I carry them and he ended = Yes, I suppose I do(will) have a = a friend of M-D's, all the better. Johnk from rkrees@mcn.net Thu Mar 7 15:28:22 2002 g27LSK818568 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:28:20 -0600 id 16j5Qw-00007C-00; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 13:28:19 -0800 Subject: Re: Guillermo's Leaders Could you please post how we all my help out, maybe we can do a group =buy or something. I know that I would love to try these leaders but have =no outlet for them nor the time to make them.Ron Could you please post how we all my help out, maybe= a group buy or something. I know that I would love to try these leaders = no outlet for them nor the time to make them.Ron from luu_andrew@hotmail.com Thu Mar 7 15:30:16 2002 g27LUF818805 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:30:15 -0600 Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:30:02 -0800 Thu, 07 Mar 2002 21:30:02 GMT Subject: Depth gauge, base,accessories, Stanley 9 1/2 for sale, delete if notinterested FILETIME=[3DC4FB90:01C1C61F] Hello Everyone, Two weeks ago I posted on the list the rod making equipments I am selling, I have sold almost all of them (I hope you all are happy with the equipments) except for a depth gauge and the base and accessories, and an older stanley 9 1/2 plane that you may be interested in. I have one depth gauge and base that I bought from Lon Blauvelts at the same time I bought the Wagner'sform but also have never had a chance to use it. You can find more about it here: http://members.tripod.com/~BambooFlyRods/gauges.html I am asking for $75 + $6 shipping including this detph gauge setup, 2 staretts 60* checks, 3 of the 60* points, and a calibration block from John Linvet. I am asking $25 + 5 shipping for the older stanley 9 1/2 in good condition with no rust Please let me know if any of these interest you, off the list of course. Best regards,Andrew _________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com from luu_andrew@hotmail.com Thu Mar 7 15:51:00 2002 g27Lox820408 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:50:59 -0600 Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:50:53 -0800 Thu, 07 Mar 2002 21:50:53 GMT Subject: Re: Depth gauge, base,accessories, Stanley 9 1/2 for sale, delete ifnot interes FILETIME=[277792A0:01C1C622] All are gone. Thank you very much once again for putting up with me posting these equipments for sale. I rather have rodmakers get a first look at it before it's going on ebay. Good luck to you all. Best regards, Andrew _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com from ccurrojr@voyager.net Thu Mar 7 15:56:37 2002 g27Lub820824 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:56:37 -0600 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 16:55:46 -0500 Subject: Grayrock Rodmakers & Friends --------------5A2DAD25578163BEAACA3AF6 Dear listers Since I've been off the list for awhile, I'm not sure if anything hasbeen posted regarding some news from those of us who admit (publicly) tobeing associated with the Rodmakers at Grayrock. But, here goes . . . The 2002 Makers Rod Stream Restoration Raffle officially kicks off thisweekend at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo at Southfield (near Detroit). Alot of rodmakers we all know pooled their efforts and made one gorgeousrod. The rest of the prize package ain't bad either. You can find outall about the Makers Rod project and order your ticket by visiting thisweb page - http://www.curro.net/makersrod. Also - you can preregister for the Grayrock gathering by going here - http://www.curro.net/grayrock2002. We're gonna have a TON of rods tocast up here this year. At least that's what Dennis Higham said. And for those of you who are chomping-at-the-bit to sign up for SRG 2002so you can watch Harry Boyd attempt to split cane like a REAL man does(namely, Bob "Crack-em-with-yer-fingers" Nunley), well, you will justhave to wait until the middle of April. We'll get a preregistration webpage up by then. Bless you all and over&out.cc --------------5A2DAD25578163BEAACA3AF6 Dear listersSince I've been off the list for awhile, I'm not sure if anything hasbeen posted regarding some news from those of us who admit (publicly) tobeing associated with the Rodmakers at Grayrock. But, here goes . . .The 2002 Makers Rod Stream Restoration Raffle officially kicks off thisweekend at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo at Southfield (near Detroit). Alot of rodmakers we all know pooled their efforts and made one gorgeousrod. The rest of the prize package ain't bad either. You can find out allabout the Makers Rod project and order your ticket by visiting this webpage - http://www.curro.net/makersrod.Also - you can preregister for the Grayrock gathering by going here- http://www.curro.net/grayrock2002. We're gonna have a TONof rods to cast up here this year. At least that's what Dennis Higham said.And for those of you who are chomping-at-the-bit to sign up for SRG2002 so you can watch Harry Boyd attempt to split cane like a REAL mandoes (namely, Bob "Crack-em-with-yer-fingers" Nunley), well, you will justhave to wait until the middle of April. We'll get a preregistration webpage up by then.Bless you all and over&out.cc --------------5A2DAD25578163BEAACA3AF6-- from Harris.James@ev.state.az.us Thu Mar 7 16:49:36 2002 g27Mna823150 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 16:49:36 -0600 g27Mlp324858 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:47:51 -0700 15:47:40 2002 -0700 with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 15:49:29 -0700 Subject: New Binder g27Mna823151 Just checked out Tom Hardy's new binder on Todds Tips webpage. Suggestyou do the same. Look in What's New or Contraptions. Beautiful work Tom! from ddeloach@pcisys.net Thu Mar 7 17:07:50 2002 g27N7n824068 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:07:49 -0600 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 16:07:44 -0700 env- from (ddeloach@pcisys.net) Subject: Non-rodmaking: bulk fly order Gentlemen,I am soliciting participants in a wholesale group fly order from one of themajor wholesalers in Africa I've been sent a sample dozen of different patterns and I must say the fliesare of excellent quality. They are well hackled and on top quality hooks.The wholsaler lists Fishwest flies and several other US customers asreferences. from what I've seen I am convinced that these are very highquality fly shop caliber flies that Fishwest charges over a dollar each for. The best part is the wholesale prices are VERY inexpensive, but the minimumorder is 100 dozen plus shipping. When I asked for a quote they said that arecent order of 100 dozen sent to the US was $57 to ship. Could be slightlyhigher or lower they said. I've attached the price list they gave me (dries at $3/dozen wow!) Forcomplete list of available patterns check http://bygraceflies.netfirms.com/ Anyway please contact me off list if interested in getting in on a grouporder. Personally I don't want more than about 30 or 40 dozen so if I canfind a few guys to help me make it to 100 dozen I'll do it. NFI of course, and thanksDon DeLoach Prices (In US dollars per dozen) Dry Flies3.0 Wet Flies2.5 Streamers3.5 Beadhead3.7 Muddler3.8 Nymphs2.5 Salmon6.0 Stimulator5.0 Standard Salt Water8.0 Steel Head9.5 TubeFlies10.0 Epoxy Saltwater8.5 Bassbugs7.5 from bob@downandacross.com Thu Mar 7 18:11:50 2002 g280Bn825937 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 18:11:49 -0600 7 Mar 2002 19:11:43 -0500 Subject: RE: Grayrock Rodmakers & Friends Hi Charlie:Will the book be available for others? It would be a neat item to have.Thanks for the info.Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 4:56 PM Subject: Grayrock Rodmakers & Friends Dear listersSince I've been off the list for awhile, I'm not sure if anything has beenposted regarding some news from those of us who admit (publicly) to beingassociated with the Rodmakers at Grayrock. But, here goes . . . The 2002 Makers Rod Stream Restoration Raffle officially kicks off thisweekend at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo at Southfield (near Detroit). A lotof rodmakers we all know pooled their efforts and made one gorgeous rod.Therest of the prize package ain't bad either. You can find out all about theMakers Rod project and order your ticket by visiting this web page - http://www.curro.net/makersrod. Also - you can preregister for the Grayrock gathering by going here - http://www.curro.net/grayrock2002. We're gonna have a TON of rods tocast uphere this year. At least that's what Dennis Higham said. And for those of you who are chomping-at-the-bit to sign up for SRG 2002so you can watch Harry Boyd attempt to split cane like a REAL man does(namely, Bob "Crack-em-with-yer-fingers" Nunley), well, you will just haveto wait until the middle of April. We'll get a preregistration web page up Bless you all and over&out.cc Charlie: have. the info.Bob CurroSent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 4:56 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Grayrock Rodmakers& = Since I've been off the list for awhile, I'm not sure if anything = posted regarding some news from those of us who admit (publicly) to = The 2002 Makers Rod Stream Restoration Raffle officially kicks off = weekend at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo at Southfield (near Detroit). = rodmakers we all know pooled their efforts and made one gorgeous rod. = of the prize package ain't bad either. You can find out all about the = Also - you can preregister for the Grayrock gathering by going here =- http://www.curro.net/grayrock2= We're gonna have a TON of rods to cast up here this = And for those of you who are chomping-at-the-bit to sign up for SRG = you can watch Harry Boyd attempt to split cane like a REAL man does = Bob "Crack-em-with-yer-fingers" Nunley), well, you will just have to = until the middle of April. We'll get a preregistration web page up by = Bless you all and over&out. cc = from rkrees@mcn.net Thu Mar 7 18:18:18 2002 g280IH826234 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 18:18:18 -0600 id 16j85Q-0004aB-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 16:18:17 -0800 Subject: Drip Tubes ?For those of you using clear plastic fluorescent light tube protector's fordrip tubes, have youtried using regular pvc cement and if so have you had any bad reactions withyour varnish?Ron from rextutor@yahoo.com Thu Mar 7 19:08:34 2002 g2818Y827382 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:08:34 -0600 07 Mar 2002 17:08:33 PST Subject: Re: Drip Tubes RonThe glue I used is 5 min epoxy on my clear plasticfluorescentlight tube protector's for my drip tube. Noreaction to varnish . I used a pvc cap and th glue hasvery little chance to contact the varnish. I used ahot water spit cock value which I cut threads for sono glue there. WHat happened to your varnish ? GoodLuck --- "Ronnie L. Rees" wrote: ?For those of you using clear plastic fluorescentlight tube protector's fordrip tubes, have youtried using regular pvc cement and if so have youhad any bad reactions withyour varnish?Ron __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from erjmjj@mhtc.net Thu Mar 7 19:13:20 2002 g281DJ827640 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:13:19 -0600 "Rodmakers discussion group" Subject: 60* Starret Tips Dear Chat Group: I found a dial indicator thanks to the advice of the chat group last night.However, somebody gave me the information about the Starret 60* tipavailable from Enco. They informed me that it was tip number 84629800. Ihave tried to find this on the Enco site and have had no luck. Couldsomebody point me in the right direction. Eric J. from rkrees@mcn.net Thu Mar 7 19:13:48 2002 g281Dl827764 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:13:48 -0600 id 16j8x7-00075O-00; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 17:13:46 -0800 Subject: Re: Drip Tubes RexNothing I have just relocated the shop and the old dip system stayed in thefloor at the old place. I thought that I would try this sence space is at alimit and the new shop will not be built for about a year. I bought fiveminute but thought that I would try PVC and see how it worked just for theease of things and I thought that I might ask othersThanks Ron from edriddle@mindspring.com Thu Mar 7 19:17:54 2002 g281Hs828116 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:17:54 -0600 helo=oemcomputer) id 16j915-0000LF-00; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 20:17:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Drip Tubes Ron:A buddy of mine glued up the pvc piece on the bottom of my tube with whathecalled "pvc glue" and I've run a dozen or sorods through the tube in the last couple years with no problems. The tubefits inside the pvc piece, no glue on inside of tube.Ed ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Drip Tubes ?For those of you using clear plastic fluorescent light tube protector's for drip tubes, have youtried using regular pvc cement and if so have you had any bad reactions with your varnish?Ron from rmoon@ida.net Thu Mar 7 19:19:03 2002 g281J3828255 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:19:03 -0600 Subject: Off the subject I was just browsing, and found Charley Curro's non trout bum page on theJordan River. It just reminded me of things I have yet to do. Likestop and smell the flowers. Try it you will like itRalph http://www.curro.net/Tbbqv/jordan/river.htm --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from rextutor@yahoo.com Thu Mar 7 19:27:47 2002 g281Rk828718 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:27:46 -0600 07 Mar 2002 17:27:44 PST Subject: Re: Drip Tubes Like I saw in another email , the cap is 2 inches andfit the tube tight - little or no glue contact withvarnishPiece of cake --- "Ronnie L. Rees" wrote: RexNothing I have just relocated the shop and the olddip system stayed in thefloor at the old place. I thought that I would trythis sence space is at alimit and the new shop will not be built for about ayear. I bought fiveminute but thought that I would try PVC and see howit worked just for theease of things and I thought that I might ask othersThanks Ron __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from HARRISTRIBE@aol.com Thu Mar 7 19:34:08 2002 g281Y7829067 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:34:07 -0600 Subject: Re: Drip Tubes Ron if your trying to put a cap on the bottom there is a simple round PVC connector that will fit inside the clear tube and the cap will fit on the outside of the tube. When you put them all together they will press fit so sweetly that you will not need to use PVC cement. I'm on my second driptube setup and I've never lost a drop with this connection. Off hand I can't remember the proper name for that part. But it looks like a PVC sleeve that is made for this application. Just look around in the various boxes until you find it. Grab one of the HD clear tubes so you can check the fit. The other nice thing is that when you change tubes down the road you will reuse the fittings. JimH Ron if your trying to put a cap on the bottom thereis a simple round PVC connector that will fit inside the clear tube and the cap they will press fit so sweetly that you will not need to use PVC other nice thing is that when you change tubes down the road you will reusethe fittings. JimH from edriddle@mindspring.com Thu Mar 7 19:36:04 2002 g281a3829278 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:36:03 -0600 helo=oemcomputer) id 16j9If-0004yQ-00 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 20:36:02 -0500 Subject: Fw: 60* Starret Tips Eric:I couldn't find this item at Enco either a couple months ago. I found it onthe Starrett website, but since they don't ship direct, I had to arrange toget it through a local outlet that carried Starrett stuff ( list of dealerson their website as I recall). Cost approx. $3.00.Ed ----- Original Message ----- discussiongroup" Subject: 60* Starret Tips Dear Chat Group: I found a dial indicator thanks to the advice of the chat group last night. However, somebody gave me the information about the Starret 60* tipavailable from Enco. They informed me that it was tip number 84629800. Ihave tried to find this on the Enco site and have had no luck. Couldsomebody point me in the right direction. Eric J. from mrc@mars.plala.or.jp Thu Mar 7 19:44:49 2002 g281il829677 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:44:47 -0600 id g281ije11466 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 200210:44:45 +0900 (JST) id KAA11531 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 200210:44:44 +0900 (JST) Subject: The diameter of reel foot curve Hi friends, Have some of you measured the diameter of your reel foot?Yes, it is the curve which is turned on the back side of reel foot. If not, would you please measure and report it on the list? I am gathering the measurements of various reel's foot for a pupose. I had been using a router bit of woodline (wl1091) and reshaped the bradeinto V~V shape by myself. But this bit has a smaller diameter of bead.A router bit with smaller bead diameter will turn the surface of real seatfiller to a smaller diameter. Thus, the reel would slip right and left on the filler while fishing eventhough it is fixed withreel seat ring. It is appreciated if you could measure your reel foot and post themeasurement, withreal maker, model and diameter value. To measure the diameter of reel foot, 1. Prepare a round stock bar (wood or metal) with various diameters, from0.6" to 0.8".2. Place reel foot on it.3. Report the most fit diameter with your reel. The reels which I have are as follows; (please do not confuse betweendiameter and R, R is half a diameter) Maker Size/Model diameter (2x R)------------ ----------- --------- -----Orvis: all sizes 19.5mm (0.768")Ross: #4 19.5mm (0.768")Trutta: #3 19.5mm (0.768")Hardy Marquis Silver face 18.0mm (0.708") Thanks, Max from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Thu Mar 7 19:52:08 2002 g281ps800113 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:51:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Grayrock Rodmakers & Friends what book? Subject: RE: Grayrock Rodmakers & Friends Hi Charlie:Will the book be available for others? It would be a neat item to =have.Thanks for the info.Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 4:56 PM Subject: Grayrock Rodmakers & Friends Since I've been off the list for awhile, I'm not sure if anything =has been posted regarding some news from those of us who admit =(publicly) to being associated with the Rodmakers at Grayrock. But, here = The 2002 Makers Rod Stream Restoration Raffle officially kicks off =this weekend at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo at Southfield (near =Detroit). A lot of rodmakers we all know pooled their efforts and made =one gorgeous rod. The rest of the prize package ain't bad either. You =can find out all about the Makers Rod project and order your ticket by = Also - you can preregister for the Grayrock gathering by going here =- http://www.curro.net/grayrock2002. We're gonna have a TON of rods to = And for those of you who are chomping-at-the-bit to sign up for SRG =2002 so you can watch Harry Boyd attempt to split cane like a REAL man =does (namely, Bob "Crack-em-with-yer-fingers" Nunley), well, you will =just have to wait until the middle of April. We'll get a preregistration = what book? ----- Original Message ----- Maulucci Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 = PMSubject: RE: Grayrock Rodmakers= Friends Charlie: have. the info.Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.w= = CurroSent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 4:56 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Grayrock Rodmakers & FriendsDear Since I've been off the list for awhile, I'm not sure if anything = been posted regarding some news from those of us who admit = being associated with the Rodmakers at Grayrock. But, here goes . . = The 2002 Makers Rod Stream Restoration Raffle officially kicks = weekend at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo at Southfield (near = of rodmakers we all know pooled their efforts and made one gorgeous = rest of the prize package ain't bad either. You can find out all = Makers Rod project and order your ticket by visiting this web page - = Also - you can preregister for the Grayrock gathering by going =here - http://www.curro.net/grayrock2= We're gonna have a TON of rods to cast up here this = And for those of you who are chomping-at-the-bit to sign up for = so you can watch Harry Boyd attempt to split cane like a REAL man = (namely, Bob "Crack-em-with-yer-fingers" Nunley), well, you will = to wait until the middle of April. We'll get a preregistration web = from edriddle@mindspring.com Thu Mar 7 20:02:57 2002 g2822u800581 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:02:56 -0600 helo=oemcomputer) id 16j9ig-0004ui-00 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 21:02:55 -0500 Subject: Gone Fishing Going salt water (N.C. coast) fishing for a week...lotta reading to do whenI get back no doubt.Ed from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Thu Mar 7 20:15:47 2002 g282Fl801004 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:15:47 -0600 Thu, 7 Mar 2002 18:15:41 -0800 Subject: Re: The diameter of reel foot curve FILETIME=[25705120:01C1C647] This brings up an interesting point. I had a reel seat with an off- centermortise. It looked like hell, so I took a file and cut the mortise awayleaving a flat surface. It is the weirdest looking reel seat I have everseen, and it holds any reel like a vise. I can't decide whether it looksincredibly cool, or incredibly tasteless. Your vote counts. Jeff Schaeffer from bob@downandacross.com Thu Mar 7 20:19:58 2002 g282Jv801255 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:19:58 -0600 Subject: RE: Grayrock Rodmakers & Friends The one mentioned with the Maker's rod. Had pics of the makers and bios.Looked pretty neat.-----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 8:51 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Grayrock Rodmakers & Friends what book? ----- Original Message -----From: Bob Maulucci Subject: RE: Grayrock Rodmakers & Friends Hi Charlie:Will the book be available for others? It would be a neat item to have.Thanks for the info.Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 4:56 PM Subject: Grayrock Rodmakers & Friends Dear listersSince I've been off the list for awhile, I'm not sure if anything hasbeen posted regarding some news from those of us who admit (publicly) tobeing associated with the Rodmakers at Grayrock. But, here goes . . . The 2002 Makers Rod Stream Restoration Raffle officially kicks offthis weekend at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo at Southfield (near Detroit). Alot of rodmakers we all know pooled their efforts and made one gorgeousrod.The rest of the prize package ain't bad either. You can find out all aboutthe Makers Rod project and order your ticket by visiting this web page - http://www.curro.net/makersrod. Also - you can preregister for the Grayrock gathering by going here - http://www.curro.net/grayrock2002. We're gonna have a TON of rods tocast uphere this year. At least that's what Dennis Higham said. And for those of you who are chomping-at-the-bit to sign up for SRG2002 so you can watch Harry Boyd attempt to split cane like a REAL mandoes(namely, Bob "Crack-em-with-yer-fingers" Nunley), well, you will just haveto wait until the middle of April. We'll get a preregistration web page up Bless you all and over&out.cc mentioned with the Maker's rod. Had pics of the makers and bios. Looked = neat. 2002 = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Grayrock Rodmakers= Friendswhat book? ----- Original Message ----- Maulucci Sent: Thursday, March 07, = PMSubject: RE: Grayrock = Friends Charlie: have. Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.w= CurroSent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 4:56 = Grayrock Rodmakers & FriendsDear Since I've been off the list for awhile, I'm not sure if = been posted regarding some news from those of us who admit = being associated with the Rodmakers at Grayrock. But, here goes . = The 2002 Makers Rod Stream Restoration Raffle officially kicks = weekend at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo at Southfield (near = lot of rodmakers we all know pooled their efforts and made one = rod. The rest of the prize package ain't bad either. You can find = about the Makers Rod project and order your ticket by visiting = Also - you can preregister for the Grayrock gathering by going = http://www.curro.net/grayrock2= We're gonna have a TON of rods to cast up here this = And for those of you who are chomping-at-the-bit to sign up for = 2002 so you can watch Harry Boyd attempt to split cane like a REAL = does (namely, Bob "Crack-em-with-yer-fingers" Nunley), well, you = have to wait until the middle of April. We'll get a = from mrc@mars.plala.or.jp Thu Mar 7 20:35:47 2002 g282Zk801767 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:35:46 -0600 id g282ZiK00200; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:35:44 +0900 (JST) id LAA15102; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:35:43 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: The diameter of reel foot curve Hi Jeff, A flat surface can stand any reel foot on it! But it is scratched with theedge.Reel will sea-saw on a surface with smaller diameter.I am asking to measure your reel's foot, not your reel seat! Do not destroyyour reel seat too much! Max This brings up an interesting point. I had a reel seat with an off- centermortise. It looked like hell, so I took a file and cut the mortise awayleaving a flat surface. It is the weirdest looking reel seat I have everseen, and it holds any reel like a vise. I can't decide whether it looksincredibly cool, or incredibly tasteless. Your vote counts. Jeff Schaeffer from lblan@provide.net Thu Mar 7 20:39:53 2002 g282dr801994 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:39:53 -0600 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:39:51 -0500 Subject: RE: Off the subject A great place Ralph. This, btw is Wayne C's favorite retreat from the world,and the birthplace of the Sir D. Watch your step if you stop to smell theflowers though, it's a tough wade, just ask a few of the folks Wayne hastaken there. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 8:19 PM Subject: Off the subject I was just browsing, and found Charley Curro's non trout bum page on theJordan River. It just reminded me of things I have yet to do. Likestop and smell the flowers. Try it you will like itRalph http://www.curro.net/Tbbqv/jordan/river.htm --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from pohl@earthlink.net Thu Mar 7 20:43:33 2002 g282hW802273 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:43:32 -0600 helo=kathypohl) id 16jALz-0007Mk-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 18:43:31 -0800 Subject: Binder questions I have a couple of questions regarding building a binder. I've located =some pulleys at the HW store with ~ 1/4" channel in them, is this too = I have a couple of questions regarding = in them, is this too wide or doesn't it matter? What should i use for a = Thanks, Mark from ddeloach@pcisys.net Thu Mar 7 20:48:14 2002 g282mD802597 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:48:13 -0600 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:48:12 -0700 env- from (ddeloach@pcisys.net) Subject: bulk fly order HURRY List, I have already received an overwhelming response from folks interestedin the wholesale fly order. In fact it getting to be too big already. So Iwill have to cut off this order in one hour, at appx 8:45PM Mountain time. shoot me an email right away if you're interested. thanksDon DeLoach from cw@vanion.com Thu Mar 7 20:51:02 2002 g282p2802819 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:51:02 -0600 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:55:57 -0700 Subject: Diameter of reelfoot As a carpenter by trade, I have only one finger nail bit, and it is 1 =1/2" size. [used it on counter top edges] I tried it to make a Payne =type mortice, which turned out pretty flat, but with some arch. The =thing is, the reel is anchored REALLY solid as it is not sitting on an =arch that lets it rotate. Has anyone done this type of mortice before? =I've got an order in for the small size bits too, but kinda like this.Chad As a carpenter by trade, I haveonly = nail bit, and it is 1 1/2" size. [used it on counter top edges] I = to make a Payne type mortice, which turned out pretty flat, but with = The thing is, the reel is anchored REALLY solid as it is not sitting on = that lets it rotate. Has anyone done this type of mortice before? I've = order in for the small size bits too, but kinda like this.Chad from TBOWDEN@halcyon.com Thu Mar 7 21:07:41 2002 g2837e803371 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:07:40 -0600 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:07:33 -0800 Subject: Re: Fw: 60* Starret Tips I ordered mine directly from Starrett. Their part number was 6332/6. At 08:38 PM 3/7/2002 -0500, Ed Riddle wrote: Eric:I couldn't find this item at Enco either a couple months ago. I found it onthe Starrett website, but since they don't ship direct, I had to arrange toget it through a local outlet that carried Starrett stuff ( list of dealerson their website as I recall). Cost approx. $3.00.Ed ----- Original Message -----From: "Eric Johannesen" discussiongroup" Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 8:14 PMSubject: 60* Starret Tips Dear Chat Group: I found a dial indicator thanks to the advice of the chat group last night. However, somebody gave me the information about the Starret 60* tipavailable from Enco. They informed me that it was tip number84629800. Ihave tried to find this on the Enco site and have had no luck. Couldsomebody point me in the right direction. Eric J. from TBOWDEN@halcyon.com Thu Mar 7 21:10:45 2002 g283Aj803659 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:10:45 -0600 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:10:41 -0800 Subject: Re: long rod tapers. Try the AJ Thramer 9' 4wt. in the taper archive on the Rodmaker web site. I made one last year & really enjoyed it for float tube fishing. Tom At 11:00 AM 3/7/2002 -0600, Grombacher, Alan wrote: Hey Folks, I've been discussing long rods with a few fellas lately. The late Len Wright wrote about long rods. He mentioned using a 10 foot Payne (a light lined rod). Does anyone know about this rod and taper? What about any other light lined rod tapers 9 feet and larger? Cheers, Alberta Al from rcrensha@midsouth.rr.com Thu Mar 7 21:18:28 2002 g283IR804100 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:18:27 -0600 g283IFb16765; Subject: Re: Drip Tubes Ron, for what it's worth, I used PVC cement. You only need a tiny bit. Thestandard PVC fittng fit mine (can't recall the size) and would have probablyheld the varnish fine, but I didn't want to flood my floor with varnishshould the tube fall over. Rick----- Original Message ----- Subject: Drip Tubes ?For those of you using clear plastic fluorescent light tube protector's fordrip tubes, have youtried using regular pvc cement and if so have you had any bad reactions withyour varnish?Ron from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 7 21:19:43 2002 g283Jh804273 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:19:43 -0600 helo=default) id 16jAuw-0000hy-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 22:19:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Binder questions You can use either a round leather, or round urethane drive belt. The ==BC" wide groove shouldn't be a problem, and you can get the belting in ==BC", too. M-D I have a couple of questions regarding building a binder. I've located =some pulleys at the HW store with ~ 1/4" channel in them, is this too = You can use either a = problem, and you can get the belting in =BC", too. M-D Mark = Pohl I have a couple of questions = channel in them, is this too wide or doesn't it matter? What should i = a belt? Thanks, Mark from TBOWDEN@halcyon.com Thu Mar 7 21:37:52 2002 g283bp804904 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:37:51 -0600 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:37:48 -0800 Subject: Thread for blued ferrules/guides I've decided to blue the ferrules on the rod I'm working on. It's a Para-17 that's for saltwater, and will have a black anodized reel seat & black guides. Would like some opinions on thread color over blued components. I've used either tan or the Pearsall classic chestnut on my previous rods - all with silver ferrules & guides. The wraps come out semi-transparent, and I'm concerned that this will look funny with dark components. I was thinking of using a darker color thread. Will probably run some tests to see for myself, but thought I'd see what others think. TIA Tom from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 7 21:42:40 2002 g283gd805161 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:42:40 -0600 helo=default) id 16jBHD-0003GA-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 22:42:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Thread for blued ferrules/guides Personally, I don't find the black tabs showing underneath the thread to beunattractive. TheClassic Chestnut or Java Brown both look nice, but use the Naples on largerrods. M-D I've decided to blue the ferrules on the rod I'm working on. It's a Para- 17that's for saltwater, and will have a black anodized reel seat & black guides. Would like some opinions on thread color over blued components. I've usedeither tan or the Pearsall classic chestnut on my previous rods - all withsilver ferrules & guides. The wraps come out semi-transparent, and I'mconcerned that this will look funny with dark components. I was thinking ofusing a darker color thread. Will probably run some tests to see formyself, but thought I'd see what others think. TIA Tom from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Mar 7 21:49:34 2002 g283nX805490 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:49:33 -0600 Subject: Re: Guillermo's Leaders I asked Guillermo to send me a leader and he mentioned that payment was problematical which it is. In case you aren't aware Argentina is in the middle of a financial and political crisis and people can't get to their own bank accounts. Also their currency has been devalued from level pegging the greenback to something much less meaning any funds in the bank are worth a lot less now so US funds would be of great assistance to anybody who can get them.A group order would be a good thing for those interested because it would mean a single transaction for Guillermo to access somehow.I hope I haven't stepped over the line here on Guillermo's behalf but he may not want to say these things himself.Definately no self interest here. Tony At 02:30 PM 3/7/02 -0700, Ronnie L. Rees wrote: Could you please post how we all my help out, maybe we can do a group buy or something. I know that I would love to try these leaders but have no outlet for them nor the time to make them.Ron /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Thu Mar 7 22:02:27 2002 g2842Q805958 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:02:26 -0600 Subject: Re: Binder questions Mark, I used something similar, rollers from a patio door - got them at Lowes, =brass with bushings about 1/4 in groove. I built my binder ala Garison =design, but have modified it per a suggestion on the list. Make a =second main drive pulley and stack them together. Wind one pulley full =of 50# braided nylon masons twine - I anchored the twine by drilling a =small hole for a screw, sticking the end of the drive belt/string in the =hole and screwing the screw in. Do the same think with the end of the =belt on the empty drive pulley. Crank the pulleys backwards to rewind =all of the belt onto the other pulley. Thread the belt through your =pulleys and around a 1/4 test dowel, hang your weight on the belt and =away you go. The benefit is NO slipping of the belt, and NO bump as the =splice or knot in the belt traverses the rod. I use Polyurethane glue =and run the belt back and forth through a cloth dampened with paint =thinner after glueup. Use the appropriate solvent for your glue for =cleanup. KurtNixa, MO-----Original Message-----From: Mark & Kathy Pohl Subject: Binder questions I have a couple of questions regarding building a binder. I've =located some pulleys at the HW store with ~ 1/4" channel in them, is =this too wide or doesn't it matter? What should i use for a belt? = Mark, I used something similar, rollers from a patio door = ala Garison design, but have modified it per a suggestion on the = full of 50# braided nylon masons twine - I anchored the twine by = small hole for a screw, sticking the end of the drive belt/string in the = around a 1/4 test dowel, hang your weight on the belt and away you = benefit is NO slipping of the belt, and NO bump as the splice or knot in = appropriate solvent for your glue for cleanup. Good luck, KurtNixa, MO -----Original = =rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= questionsI have a couple of questions = 1/4" channel in them, is this too wide or doesn't it matter? = should i use for a belt? Thanks, Mark = from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 7 22:18:55 2002 g284It806451 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:18:55 -0600 helo=default) id 16jBqI-0004Ko-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 23:18:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Guillermo's Leaders You guys are just too good. I think a group order would be a really good thing,and I'll be glad todo it since Guillermo and I have been working on this financial thing. Let metalk to him about thisgroup order, then I'll post to the list with the particulars. M-D I asked Guillermo to send me a leader and he mentioned that payment wasproblematical which it is. In case you aren't aware Argentina is in themiddle of a financial and political crisis and people can't get to theirown bank accounts. Also their currency has been devalued from level peggingthe greenback to something much less meaning any funds in the bank areworth a lot less now so US funds would be of great assistance to anybodywho can get them.A group order would be a good thing for those interested because it wouldmean a single transaction for Guillermo to access somehow.I hope I haven't stepped over the line here on Guillermo's behalf but hemay not want to say these things himself.Definately no self interest here. Tony At 02:30 PM 3/7/02 -0700, Ronnie L. Rees wrote: Could you please post how we all my help out, maybe we can do a group buyor something. I know that I would love to try these leaders but have nooutlet for them nor the time to make them.Ron /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from channer@frontier.net Thu Mar 7 22:28:23 2002 g284SM806793 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:28:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Thread for blued ferrules/guides Tom,Don't blue the part that gets wrapped over.john Tom Bowden wrote: I've decided to blue the ferrules on the rod I'm working on. It's a Para- 17that's for saltwater, and will have a black anodized reel seat & blackguides. Would like some opinions on thread color over blued components. I've usedeither tan or the Pearsall classic chestnut on my previous rods - all withsilver ferrules & guides. The wraps come out semi-transparent, and I'mconcerned that this will look funny with dark components. I was thinking ofusing a darker color thread. Will probably run some tests to see formyself, but thought I'd see what others think. TIA Tom from bob@downandacross.com Thu Mar 7 22:28:43 2002 g284Sg806826 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:28:42 -0600 Subject: RE: Thread for blued ferrules/guides Tom:I have been using the Gudebrod varnish on the ferrule wraps to keep themopaque. It does darken the color, but I like the opaque look at the ferrulesquite a bit. Actually, I like the look on guides too. I use this on my rodsthat I fish.Best regards, Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Thread for blued ferrules/guides I've decided to blue the ferrules on the rod I'm working on. It's a Para- 17that's for saltwater, and will have a black anodized reel seat &black guides. Would like some opinions on thread color over blued components. I've usedeither tan or the Pearsall classic chestnut on my previous rods - all withsilver ferrules & guides. The wraps come out semi-transparent, and I'mconcerned that this will look funny with dark components. I was thinking ofusing a darker color thread. Will probably run some tests to see formyself, but thought I'd see what others think. TIA Tom from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 7 22:39:16 2002 g284dG807355 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:39:16 -0600 helo=default) id 16jC9z-0001Hw-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 23:39:15 -0500 Subject: Fw: A new urban name for you. A new urban name for you. yo momma give ya, get yo'self a new handle, boy. Word be bond. Or, if you need a porn screen name http://www.jasonschock.com/gangsta/porn_name.php Have fun, kids! BTW, Todd Talsma's gangsta name is: Drunken Daddy aka Doctor Tittles, =onscreen. M-D A new urban name for you. = handle, boy. Word be bond.http://www.jasonschock.com/gangsta/ Or, if you need a porn= name http://www.jaso=nschock.com/gangsta/porn_name.php Have fun, =kids! BTW, Todd Talsma's = Drunken Daddy aka Doctor Tittles, onscreen. M-D from KyleDruey@aol.com Thu Mar 7 22:48:03 2002 g284m2807738 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:48:02 -0600 Subject: Re: 60* Starret Tips Eric, That is the MSC part number, do a websearch for MSC, enter the partnumber using their search engine and you will find it. Kyle In a message dated 03/07/2002 5:13:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, erjmjj@mhtc.net writes: Dear Chat Group:I found a dial indicator thanks to the advice of the chat group last night.However, somebody gave me the information about the Starret 60* tipavailable from Enco. They informed me that it was tip number 84629800. Ihave tried to find this on the Enco site and have had no luck. Couldsomebody point me in the right direction.Eric J. from saweiss@flash.net Thu Mar 7 23:45:12 2002 g285jB808902 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:45:11 -0600 g285j6h24084 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 00:45:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Ferrules Organization: Prodigy Internet Do you also floss between the tabs?Steven Weiss, D.D.S. "You need a very strong thread to bind down the ferrule tabs. Kevlar works, as well asthe ferrule tab binding thread sold by Golden Witch. Do not be afraid toreally put the pressure on the tabs." Waxed Dental Floss works great too! Dennis from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Mar 7 23:57:15 2002 g285vE809242 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:57:14 -0600 Subject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the Great Southern in NZ? TY /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886- 1935)/*************************************************************************/ from ajthramer@hotmail.com Fri Mar 8 01:44:50 2002 g287in811092 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 01:44:49 -0600 Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:44:36 -0800 Fri, 08 Mar 2002 07:44:36 GMT Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules FILETIME=[189E8600:01C1C675] Some ideas about getting the tabs to lie flat, it help immensly if you anneal the tabs of the ferrules, I pin the ferrule in place then reheat the tab area and roll the tabs onto the cane with a burnisher that is used for scrapers, I have also used the smooth part of a round saw file.tabless in OregonA.J. From: "Ted" group" Subject: Re: Removing FerrulesDate: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:06:39 -0500 When pre-fitting the ferrules I press the tabs flat to the bamboo by ironingthem with a piece of keystock. When gluing the ferrules the function of thebinding cord is to hold the tabs tightly in place, not to "pull" them intoplace. _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com from petermckean@netspace.net.au Fri Mar 8 05:00:46 2002 g28B0j813234 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 05:00:45 -0600 g28B0SH79343; Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules I use fuse wire to bind down the ferrule tabs, and I find that it worksvery well. There is no tendency for it to loosen as you wrap it and cinch it, you canput as much tension on it as you like, and when you come to take it offthere is no problem with undoing it, and there is no textile thread materialleft to be cleaned out from between the tabs etc etc. Cheers Peter from cattanac@wmis.net Fri Mar 8 06:18:37 2002 g28CIb814315 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 06:18:37 -0600 Subject: Re: Off the subject RalphI do just that - and at that very spot - it is where I taughts the kidsto fly fish and where my rodmaking career started some 21 years ago - itwasalso the inspiration for the Sir D - a stretch of tangle called Section 13Creek - I have introduce many of those that attend GrayRock to The Valley -Some have never forgiven me for it Wayne ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Off the subject I was just browsing, and found Charley Curro's non trout bum page on theJordan River. It just reminded me of things I have yet to do. Likestop and smell the flowers. Try it you will like itRalph http://www.curro.net/Tbbqv/jordan/river.htm --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Fri Mar 8 06:26:04 2002 g28CQ4814612 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 06:26:04 -0600 Fri, 8 Mar 2002 07:26:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Removing Ferrules Certainly when using an epoxy you need to bind the tabs down since it takesa while for the epoxy to set. I've used ferrultite for ferrules and didn'thave the time to bind the tabs down before it set up. Is it necesary to bind the tabs when using ferrultite? ThanksTim from bob@downandacross.com Fri Mar 8 07:03:29 2002 g28D3R815267 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 07:03:28 -0600 ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:03:22 -0500 Subject: Quadrate Forms I had an inquiry for quadrate forms the other day. Anyone know if any areavailable? I have not checked Grindstone yet, but I think they may be out.Appreciate your help.Best regards,Bob from dnorl@qwest.net Fri Mar 8 07:04:00 2002 g28D3x815369 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 07:03:59 -0600 (63.228.45.124) Subject: Re: Thread for blued ferrules/guides I point the tabs with a small jewlers file and wrap the ferrules with thesame thread as the guides. I use light colored thread that matches the cane.The pointed tabs show with the transparency of the light thread.on theferrules just as they do on the guide feet. I also use tipping on all mywraps. I like the look.Dave-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Thread for blued ferrules/guides Tom,Don't blue the part that gets wrapped over.john Tom Bowden wrote: I've decided to blue the ferrules on the rod I'm working on. It's a Para-17 that's for saltwater, and will have a black anodized reel seat & black guides. Would like some opinions on thread color over blued components. I've usedeither tan or the Pearsall classic chestnut on my previous rods - all with silver ferrules & guides. The wraps come out semi-transparent, and I'mconcerned that this will look funny with dark components. I was thinking of using a darker color thread. Will probably run some tests to see formyself, but thought I'd see what others think. TIA Tom from splitcane@attbi.com Fri Mar 8 07:06:26 2002 g28D6P815655 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 07:06:25 -0600 Subject: Special Cork Ring Purchase... Hi All, I was able to make a special purchase on some very nice Cork Rings,to get a better price I purchased more then I will ever need. So I'm passingon the saving to you, 100 1 1/4" x 1/2" x 7/16" boar for $45.00 PostagePaid. Click on link below to view photos of a random sample in stock now... http://home.attbi.com/~denverdaveinc/cork.html I build 7' to 9' rods with a swelled butt as a norm so the 7/16" ( .437" )boar is perfect for me in most cases, it might be a little large if youbuild small rods without the swell. In this case I tape off each end underthe grip, put in rod turner, apply a good coat of flex coat and turn for onehour, then remove tape and turn for another hour. On less dramaticdifferences I wrap size "A" to "E" thread under the grip, apply Gorilla Glueand slide rings on for a nice fit... In any event I thought I would pass on the deal to those interested, therenice to have around for the larger diameter rods and complement the 1/4"bore rings you all ready have in stock... PS, All reel seats have been sent and should be in your possession now, ifnot please drop me a line... * * * * * * * * * * ------------------------------------------* * * * * * * * * *-------- ----------------------------------* * * * * * * * * * ------------------------------------- -----* * * * * * * * * *------------------------------------------* * * * * * * * * * --- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------" United We Stand " Take Care, Dave Denver Dave's Vintage Bamboo Rodswww.denverdave.net from pvansch@wethersfield.k12.ct.us Fri Mar 8 08:06:12 2002 g28E6B817459 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:06:11 -0600 Subject: RE: The diameter of reel foot curve Organization: Wethersfield Public Schools I know what you are looking for but don't have a way to measure, if yourlooking for a reel with a smaller diameter foot to fit seats withsliding rings, I would recommend looking at the G Loomis Adventureseries. I use double slide band seats, tried many, many different reelsto fit these seats, never had a reel fall off, where I have with Orvisreels and some of the other high end stuff. They are light, quiet - Ijust like them. No financial interest, just my input. Pete -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: The diameter of reel foot curve Hi Jeff, A flat surface can stand any reel foot on it! But it is scratched withthe edge. Reel will sea-saw on a surface with smaller diameter. I amasking to measure your reel's foot, not your reel seat! Do not destroyyour reel seat too much! Max This brings up an interesting point. I had a reel seat with an off-center mortise. It looked like hell, so I took a file and cut the mortise away leaving a flat surface. It is the weirdest looking reel seat I have ever seen, and it holds any reel like a vise. I can't decide whether it looks incredibly cool, or incredibly tasteless. Your vote counts. Jeff Schaeffer from JNL123141@msn.com Fri Mar 8 08:40:29 2002 g28EeS818850 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:40:28 -0600 Fri, 8 Mar 2002 06:40:19 -0800 Subject: Grand Experiment FILETIME=[2B7922A0:01C1C6AF] Friends,The day I received my copy of The Planing Form, my web server, MSN decide=d all email from the list was junk mail and without warning or notificati=on, started putting mail from the list into a junk mail folder in a hot-m=ail folder which I didn't even know I had.After doing the UNSUB and SUBSCRIBE many times without success andcontac=ting Mike Biondo, I finally stumbled on to what happened and am now back =receiving the list again.Anyway, I have yet to see any of the comments about the Grand Exp.becaus=e that junk mail folder was doing an auto delete after a couple of days. =As soon as the comments show up in the archives, I'll be able to respond=. To all those who liked the article, "Thank You!" It's really cranking=me up not knowing how the article was received other than a few off list=kudo's. I'll be responding if and when I see the messages. I enjoyed d=oing the experiment even with the headaches of not having custody of some=of the rods and also the responsibility of having so many beautiful rods= When I return from Corbett Lake, I will begin returning the rods to their=makers so they can get some use out of them. Happy to be back on the list,John Friends,=The day I received my copy of The Planing Form, my web server, MSN=decided all email from the list was junk mail and without warning or noti=fication, started putting mail from the list into a junk mail folder in a=hot-mail folder which I didn't even know I had. After doing t= Mik=e Biondo, I finally stumbled on to what happened and am now back receivin=g the list again. Anyway, I have yet to see any of the comment=s about the Grand Exp. because that junk mail folder was doing an auto de= experiment even with the headaches of not having custody of some of the r=ods and also the responsibility of having so many beautiful rods in my po= from homes-sold@attbi.com Fri Mar 8 08:49:10 2002 g28En9819275 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:49:09 -0600 Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:48:55 +0000 Subject: Re: long rod tapers. Hi Al,I think the rod Jim is referring to is/was orginally thought to be a =B.F. Nichols 10ft 6wt.I'm building one for my next trip to the Bow.Don Rod Length120 Ferrule Location 1:40 Action Length105 Ferrule Weight 1:0.194 Line Weight518 Ferrule Location 2:80 Line Length100 Ferrule Weight 2:0.437 Line to Fish40 Tip Impact Factor2.179 B. F. Nichols 10ft x 6wt 3pc PointsDimensionsStresses Point 1.07500 043107 Point 2.07850 075465 Point 3.08200 099936 Point 4.08550 118291 Point 5.08900 131944 Point 6.09220 143355 Point 7.09540 151997 Point 8.09860 158429 Point 9.10180 163093 Point 10.10500 166339 Point 11.10640 177142 Point 12.10780 187210 Point 13.10920 196596 Point 14.11060 205350 Point 15.11200 213518 Point 16.11420 216527 Point 17.11640 218980 Point 18.11860 220947 Point 19.12080 222491 Point 20.12300 223664 Point 21.12600 220264 Point 22.12900 216812 Point 23.13200 213338 Point 24.13500 209870 Point 25.13800 206428 Point 26.14060 204764 Point 27.14320 203045 Point 28.14580 201285 Point 29.14840 199498 Point 30.15100 197695 Point 31.15260 199762 Point 32.15420 201728 Point 33.15580 203598 Point 34.15740 205380 Point 35.15900 207079 Point 36.16140 205611 Point 37.16380 204147 Point 38.16620 202690 Point 39.16860 201245 Point 40.17100 199814 Point 41.17480 194884 Point 42.17860 190160 Point 43.18240 185637 Point 44.18620 181307 Point 45.19000 177163 Point 46.19160 179232 Point 47.19320 181241 Point 48.19480 183192 Point 49.19640 185087 Point 50.19800 186930 Point 51.20080 185360 Point 52.20360 183812 Point 53.20640 182291 Point 54.20920 180796 Point 55.21200 179330 Point 56.21500 177398 Point 57.21800 175519 Point 58.22100 173692 Point 59.22400 171917 Point 60.22700 170193 Point 61.22860 171635 Point 62.23020 173061 Point 63.23180 174469 Point 64.23340 175862 Point 65.23500 177239 Point 66.23740 176802 Point 67.23980 176372 Point 68.24220 175950 Point 69.24460 175536 Point 70.24700 175132 Point 71.24920 175158 Point 72.25140 175185 Point 73.25360 175213 Point 74.25580 175244 Point 75.25800 175277 Point 76.25980 176124 Point 77.26160 176966 Point 78.26340 177802 Point 79.26520 178634 Point 80.26700 179461 Point 81.27280 173187 Point 82.27860 167294 Point 83.28440 161754 Point 84.29020 156540 Point 85.29600 151629 Point 86.29780 153002 Point 87.29960 154361 Point 88.30140 155707 Point 89.30320 157039 Point 90.30500 158359 Point 91.30600 160921 Point 92.30700 163490 Point 93.30800 166065 Point 94.30900 168645 Point 95.31000 171231 Point 96.31400 168887 Point 97.31800 166620 Point 98.32200 164426 Point 99.32600 162305 Point 100.33000 160252 Point 101.33260 160274 Point 102.33520 160297 Point 103.33780 160322 Point 104.34040 160348 Point 105.34300 160377 Hey Folks, I've been discussing long rods with a few fellas lately. The late Len =Wright wrote about long rods. He mentioned using a 10 foot Payne (a =light lined rod). Does anyone know about this rod and taper? What =about any other light lined rod tapers 9 feet and larger? Cheers, Alberta Al Hi Al, I'm building one for my next trip to = Bow.Don Rod Length 120 Ferrule Location 1: 40 Action Length 105 Ferrule Weight 1: 0.194 Line Weight 518 Ferrule Location 2: 80 Line Length 100 Ferrule Weight 2: 0.437 Line to Fish 40 Tip Impact Factor 2.179 B. F. Nichols 10ft x 6wt 3pc Points Dimensions Stresses Point 1 .07500 043107 Point 2 .07850 075465 Point 3 .08200 099936 Point 4 .08550 118291 Point 5 .08900 131944 Point 6 .09220 143355 Point 7 .09540 151997 Point 8 .09860 158429 Point 9 .10180 163093 Point 10 .10500 166339 Point 11 .10640 177142 Point 12 .10780 187210 Point 13 .10920 196596 Point 14 .11060 205350 Point 15 .11200 213518 Point 16 .11420 216527 Point 17 .11640 218980 Point 18 .11860 220947 Point 19 .12080 222491 Point 20 .12300 223664 Point 21 .12600 220264 Point 22 .12900 216812 Point 23 .13200 213338 Point 24 .13500 209870 Point 25 .13800 206428 Point 26 .14060 204764 Point 27 .14320 203045 Point 28 .14580 201285 Point 29 .14840 199498 Point 30 .15100 197695 Point 31 .15260 199762 Point 32 .15420 201728 Point 33 .15580 203598 Point 34 .15740 205380 Point 35 .15900 207079 Point 36 .16140 205611 Point 37 .16380 204147 Point 38 .16620 202690 Point 39 .16860 201245 Point 40 .17100 199814 Point 41 .17480 194884 Point 42 .17860 190160 Point 43 .18240 185637 Point 44 .18620 181307 Point 45 .19000 177163 Point 46 .19160 179232 Point 47 .19320 181241 Point 48 .19480 183192 Point 49 .19640 185087 Point 50 .19800 186930 Point 51 .20080 185360 Point 52 .20360 183812 Point 53 .20640 182291 Point 54 .20920 180796 Point 55 .21200 179330 Point 56 .21500 177398 Point 57 .21800 175519 Point 58 .22100 173692 Point 59 .22400 171917 Point 60 .22700 170193 Point 61 .22860 171635 Point 62 .23020 173061 Point 63 .23180 174469 Point 64 .23340 175862 Point 65 .23500 177239 Point 66 .23740 176802 Point 67 .23980 176372 Point 68 .24220 175950 Point 69 .24460 175536 Point 70 .24700 175132 Point 71 .24920 175158 Point 72 .25140 175185 Point 73 .25360 175213 Point 74 .25580 175244 Point 75 .25800 175277 Point 76 .25980 176124 Point 77 .26160 176966 Point 78 .26340 177802 Point 79 .26520 178634 Point 80 .26700 179461 Point 81 .27280 173187 Point 82 .27860 167294 Point 83 .28440 161754 Point 84 .29020 156540 Point 85 .29600 151629 Point 86 .29780 153002 Point 87 .29960 154361 Point 88 .30140 155707 Point 89 .30320 157039 Point 90 .30500 158359 Point 91 .30600 160921 Point 92 .30700 163490 Point 93 .30800 166065 Point 94 .30900 168645 Point 95 .31000 171231 Point 96 .31400 168887 Point 97 .31800 166620 Point 98 .32200 164426 Point 99 .32600 162305 Point 100 .33000 160252 Point 101 .33260 160274 Point 102 .33520 160297 Point 103 .33780 160322 Point 104 .34040 160348 Point 105 .34300 160377 From:Grombacher, Alan Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:00 AMSubject: long rod tapers. Folks, other light lined rod tapers 9 feet and larger? Cheers, Alberta Al from oossg@vbe.com Fri Mar 8 09:02:32 2002 g28F2V819959 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:02:31 -0600 g28F4rV58042 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:04:53 -0500 Subject: Classes List,I have been thinking of offering a class locally for individualsinterested in building a rod.There seems to be alot of interest. I was wondering how some of youwork this. I have done classes before with that other material, but notbamboo.Do you charge? How much?How many at a time? What tools do you provide? Do you rent any?Any insight would be greatly appreciated.Scott from homes-sold@attbi.com Fri Mar 8 11:15:46 2002 g28HFk827009 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:15:46 -0600 ;Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:15:40 +0000 Subject: Re: long rod tapers. Jim,While fishing on the Bow last summer using Al's streamer & wet fly =recommendations, thanks Al, I had some of the best fishing in a while. =The thing I noticed was at times I needed a little more distance than my =9' 6wt could muster. A lot of the area where I was fishing there wasn't =room for a back cast. Having my 14' 9wt Spey rod along on the trip I =gave it a shot as a joke and I could get to all of the river/fish I =needed but an overkill to say the least. When I saw the taper for this =rod I said perfect. So I'm going to make one rod per the taper, second =with a short extension on the grip, so I can two hand spey cast with it, =and a third set up as a 12' 6wt Spey rod. They may all turn out to be =tomato stakes but that wouldn't be the first ones I made. We'll see.Anyone have any words of wisdom???Don Subject: Re: long rod tapers. Hello Don: from the information I heard last year at Grayrocks, there's a =probability that the B.F Nichols identified rod is actually a Chubb Rod. =Reed would be the one to talk to about this as he owns the rod and has =looked further into it's origins. I haven't cast any other 10 ft rod but =I can tell you that this rod of Reed's is indeed a rod I'll make for =myself. It's slow but not as slow as you might think and is so easy to =cast and has some reserve power. I also think the 6 wt line is the best =choice for streamer and wet fly fishing. I couldn't believe the roll =casts off the dock with the rod, and being 10 ft long it would lift a =hell of a lot of line off the water with very little effort. I'm hoping =to make one next year but keep getting sidetracked by these little short =rods I keep making. Like I need another! Let me know if you make the =rod. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts about the rod. Jim Jim,While fishing on the Bow last summer = streamer & wet fly recommendations, thanks Al, I had some of the = fishing in a while. The thing I noticed was at times I needed a little = distance than my 9' 6wt could muster. A lot of the area where I was = there wasn't room for a back cast. Having my 14' 9wt Spey rod along on = I gave it a shot as a joke and I could get to all of the river/fish I = an overkill to say the least. When I saw the taper for this rod I said = So I'm going to make one rod per the taper, second with a = as a 12' 6wt Spey rod. They may all turn out to be tomato stakes but = wouldn't be the first ones I made. We'll see.Anyone have any words of =wisdom???Don From:Jim= Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 3:41 PMSubject: Re: long rod tapers. Hello Don: there's a probability that the B.F Nichols identified rod is actually a = Rod. Reed would be the one to talk to about this as he owns the rod and = looked further into it's origins. I haven't cast any other 10 ft rod but = tell you that this rod of Reed's is indeed a rod I'll make for myself. = streamer and wet fly fishing. I couldn't believe the roll casts off the = with the rod, and being 10 ft long it would lift a hell of a lot of line = water with very little effort. I'm hoping to make one next year but keep = sidetracked by these little short rods I keep making. Like I need = me know if you make the rod. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts = Jim from Dennishigham@cs.com Fri Mar 8 13:21:09 2002 g28JL8802970 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 13:21:08 -0600 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:21:00 -0500 Subject: Re: long rod tapers. Grayrock this June for your casting pleasure. Reed you're gonna love it :-} Dennis from rmoon@ida.net Fri Mar 8 14:48:56 2002 g28Kmt808170 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:48:55 -0600 Subject: unknown maker --------------A70310A501B00360C310FC99 I had an inquiry that I can't answer. Any of you know of Ashley orBelsant (Belfont?) rods.? Ralph --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------A70310A501B00360C310FC99 Ashleyor Belsant (Belfont?) rods.?Ralph --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------A70310A501B00360C310FC99-- from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Mar 8 14:56:28 2002 g28KuR808700 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:56:28 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: long rod tapers. Don, The 10' 6wt. rod I have has all Chubb hardware, but is not marked with the pentagram as two other long Chubbs I've owned. Maker aside, it is an unusual but relaxing rod to cast. False casts are seldom necessary as it shoots so well. However, mine is Calcutta with intermediates and not heat- treated. Your rod may be stiffer...which you may prefer. Like Jim, I await your results.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Don Schneider wrote: Jim, While fishing on the Bow last summer using Al's streamer & wet fly recommendations, thanks Al, I had some of the best fishing in a while. The thing I noticed was at times I needed a little more distance than my 9' 6wt could muster. A lot of the area where I was fishing there wasn't room for a back cast. Having my 14' 9wt Spey rod along on the trip I gave it a shot as a joke and I could get to all of the river/fish I needed but an overkill to say the least. When I saw the taper for this rod I said perfect. So I'm going to make one rod per the taper, second with a short extension on the grip, so I can two hand spey cast with it, and a third set up as a 12' 6wt Spey rod. They may all turn out to be tomato stakes but that wouldn't be the first ones I made. We'll see. Anyone have any words of wisdom??? Don from rmoon@ida.net Fri Mar 8 15:13:33 2002 g28LDW810179 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 15:13:32 -0600 Subject: Re: Classes Scott, I have taught a lot of people to build bamboo rods. A great numberhave been one on one, but I have taught a number of groups, and even taughta class at a junior college. Classes can be tough. In the first place, theoverhead gets a little pricey. You need a form, plane plus a bunch of otherstuff for each student. You need to provide cane, ferrules, reel seatsetc. I have charged from $0.00 to $800. I don't furnish food or lodging togroups. I do supply all tools and materials in the class price. I rarelygo beyond the ferruled bland with grip and reelseat . If a guy can't wrapand finish i don't think that he is prepared for the class. Don't forgetthat you have to find time probably a full week, but it can be done in ashorter period. You have to find a place to hold the class with good sturdyworkbenches for each student. My suggestion would be to teach one on one,and don't charge the first few students, except for materials. Find out ifyou have the aptitude to teach and if you like it. If so have a go at itand if you can finance all the expense of a class go for it. I would suggestthat you do not charge to little or too much. Some of the rodbuildersdepend on teaching as part of their income and will not take kindly to beingundercut. Ralph http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from drinkr@voicenet.com Fri Mar 8 15:50:05 2002 g28Lo4812248 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 15:50:04 -0600 (209.71.89.43) "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.e" Subject: RE: Quadrate Forms Bob John Livet sells them I believe they were designed by John ZimnyD.Rinker -----Original Message----- Subject: Quadrate Forms I had an inquiry for quadrate forms the other day. Anyone know if any areavailable? I have not checked Grindstone yet, but I think they may be out.Appreciate your help.Best regards,Bob from dpeaston@wzrd.com Fri Mar 8 16:23:31 2002 g28MNU813823 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:23:30 -0600 Subject: Re: long rod tapers. Guys, I will be bringing a 4 wt 9'6" Dame Stoddard by FE Thomas. This is a wet fly action rod; very slow and smooth. Pleasant to cast. Cheers-Doug At 04:00 PM 3/8/2002 -0500, Reed Curry wrote: Don,The 10' 6wt. rod I have has all Chubb hardware, but is not marked with the pentagram as two other long Chubbs I've owned. Maker aside, it is an unusual but relaxing rod to cast. False casts are seldom necessary as it shoots so well. However, mine is Calcutta with intermediates and not heat- treated. Your rod may be stiffer...which you may prefer. Like Jim, I await your results.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Don Schneider wrote: Jim,While fishing on the Bow last summer using Al's streamer & wet fly recommendations, thanks Al, I had some of the best fishing in a while. The thing I noticed was at times I needed a little more distance than my 9' 6wt could muster. A lot of the area where I was fishing there wasn't room for a back cast. Having my 14' 9wt Spey rod along on the trip I gave it a shot as a joke and I could get to all of the river/fish I needed but an overkill to say the least. When I saw the taper for this rod I said perfect. So I'm going to make one rod per the taper, second with a short extension on the grip, so I can two hand spey cast with it, and a third set up as a 12' 6wt Spey rod. They may all turn out to be tomato stakes but that wouldn't be the first ones I made. We'll see.Anyone have any words of wisdom???Don Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from SBDunn@aol.com Fri Mar 8 16:28:09 2002 g28MS8814156 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:28:08 -0600 Subject: Re: Fw: A new urban name for you. Do we really need this crap on the list? from snooker_e@yahoo.com Fri Mar 8 17:01:13 2002 g28N1C815524 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:01:12 -0600 Mar 2002 15:01:08 PST Subject: Re: 60* Starret Tips 86429800 from MSC. Does anyone know if MSC carries a 60* screw gauge? I have not been ableto locate it on their website. The other Eric --- KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Eric, That is the MSC part number, do a websearch for MSC, enter the partnumber using their search engine and you will find it. Kyle In a message dated 03/07/2002 5:13:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, erjmjj@mhtc.net writes: Dear Chat Group:I found a dial indicator thanks to the advice of the chat group last night. However, somebody gave me the information about the Starret 60* tipavailable from Enco. They informed me that it was tip number 84629800. I have tried to find this on the Enco site and have had no luck. Couldsomebody point me in the right direction.Eric J. =====New Smyrna Beach, FL __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from chris_wohlford@yahoo.com Fri Mar 8 19:21:31 2002 g291LU818392 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 19:21:30 -0600 08 Mar 2002 17:21:25 PST Subject: Rod Decal maker All,I thought I saw a post in the recent past about adecal maker who "likes fisherman?" Anyone know if I'mcorrect and if so could they forward his web sitelink? I'd appreciate any help I could get. Thanks,Chris __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from richjez@enteract.com Fri Mar 8 20:10:18 2002 g292AI819179 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:10:18 -0600 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:10:13 -0600 Subject: Lathe bed extension A while ago there was talk of the 10" lathe bed being too short. Here is a link for a kit to lengthen the bed. http://www.littlemachineshop.com/LMS/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1525 lathe in the first place. No financial interest etc. Rich Jezioro from thardy@blarg.net Fri Mar 8 20:25:31 2002 g292PU819544 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:25:31 -0600 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 18:25:30 -0800 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 18:25:29 -0800User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook- Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Lathe bed extension understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. You're right, it would be! I'm one of those folks who bought their 7x10 afew years ago before the 7x12s were available and the option to lengthenmine is tempting, but I also have fantasies about just getting a big latheinstead. I'm very happy with my 7x10, within it's funky limitations ofcourse. Tom Hardy From: Rich Jezioro Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 20:01:10 -0600 Subject: Lathe bed extension A while ago there was talk of the 10" lathe bed being too short. Here is alink for a kit to lengthen the bed. http://www.littlemachineshop.com/LMS/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1525 lathe in the first place. No financial interest etc. Rich Jezioro Re: Lathe bed extension You're right, it would be! I'm one of those folks who bought their 7x10=a few years ago before the 7x12s were available and the option to lengthen=mine is tempting, but I also have fantasies about just getting a big lathe i=nstead. I'm very happy with my 7x10, within it's funky limitations of course=. Tom Hardy Here is a bed from tedknott@cogeco.ca Fri Mar 8 20:46:24 2002 g292kN820105 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:46:23 -0600 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 21:46:20 -0500 Subject: Fw: New Virus Virus warning that comes from a friend who is usually right about these =things. Subject: New Virus A worm posing as an old-fashioned photograph of a girl holding a flower = MyLife arrives as e-mail with a subject line that reads "my life =ohhhhhhhhhhhhh." The body of the e-mail message contains the following = Hiiiii How are youuuuuuuu? look to the digital picture it's my = If you receive it DON'T CLICK ON THE ATTACHMENT. Just delete the E Mail. = Virus warning that comes from a friend= usually right about these things. From:Len= Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 9:23 PMSubject: New VirusA worm posing as an old-fashioned photograph of a girl = MyLife arrives as e-mail with a subject line that reads "my life ohhhhhhhhhhhhh." The body of the e-mail= youuuuuuuu? = If you receive it DON'T CLICK ON THE ATTACHMENT. Just delete the E = from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Mar 8 20:48:32 2002 g292mV820272 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:48:32 -0600 Subject: Re: long rod tapers. rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 03/08/2002 9:50:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, homes- sold@attbi.com writes: Don,I decided to print your taper information out formy taper book. I didn't know it was 34 pages long. Took a lot ofink. Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from atlasc1@earthlink.net Fri Mar 8 21:26:18 2002 g293QH820972 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 21:26:17 -0600 ([209.179.148.219] helo=computer) id 16jXUj-0000qt-00; Fri, 08 Mar 2002 19:26:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Rod Decal maker Chris,Here you go http://www.decalconnection.net/Rod%20Builders%20Page.htm Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- Subject: Rod Decal maker All,I thought I saw a post in the recent past about adecal maker who "likes fisherman?" Anyone know if I'mcorrect and if so could they forward his web sitelink? I'd appreciate any help I could get. Thanks,Chris __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from homes-sold@attbi.com Fri Mar 8 21:27:40 2002 g293Rd821117 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 21:27:39 -0600 ;Sat, 9 Mar 2002 03:27:27 +0000 Subject: Re: long rod tapers. Dave,I apologize to you and the list, I had no idea it was that long. What I didwas copy and paste from the excel pgm. It looked ok and rather short fromthis end prior to sending. I'm embarrassed, but thanks for telling me. Hopethere is no hard feelings.Don----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: long rod tapers. In a message dated 03/08/2002 9:50:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,homes- sold@attbi.com writes: Don,I decided to print your taper informationoutformy taper book. I didn't know it was 34 pages long. Took a lot ofink. Dave check out our new site at- flyandrodroom.com AOL site- http://hometown.aol.com/leclair123/index.html from rmoon@ida.net Fri Mar 8 21:55:52 2002 g293tp821908 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 21:55:51 -0600 Subject: quiet number of messages that I should have received hours ago. Am I bumped Ralph --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Fri Mar 8 22:07:04 2002 g29473822241 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 22:07:03 -0600 Subject: Re: 60* Starret Tips It is listed on p1489 of their Big Book as "60* Center Gage" #67385013, at$14.33It is made by "Brown and Sharpe" Kurt -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: 60* Starret Tips 86429800 from MSC. Does anyone know if MSC carries a 60* screw gauge? I have not been ableto locate it on their website. The other Eric --- KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Eric, That is the MSC part number, do a websearch for MSC, enter the partnumberusing their search engine and you will find it. Kyle In a message dated 03/07/2002 5:13:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,erjmjj@mhtc.net writes: Dear Chat Group: I found a dial indicator thanks to the advice of the chat group last night. However, somebody gave me the information about the Starret 60* tipavailable from Enco. They informed me that it was tip number 84629800. I have tried to find this on the Enco site and have had no luck. Couldsomebody point me in the right direction. Eric J. =====New Smyrna Beach, FL __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from Jfoster@sunset.net Fri Mar 8 22:15:59 2002 g294Fw822575 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 22:15:58 -0600 g294FmA9006850 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:15:49 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011130 Netscape6/6.2.1 Subject: Re: Lathe bed extension I purchased the extension bed from LM.com. if you have a 10" this is well worth the effort.. jerry from rodwrapp@swbell.net Fri Mar 8 22:23:13 2002 g294ND822939 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 22:23:13 -0600 (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: Re: Rod Decal maker rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I make decals also.. Thanks Davehttp://www.geocities.com/davesrods ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Rod Decal maker Chris,Here you go http://www.decalconnection.net/Rod%20Builders%20Page.htm Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Wohlford" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 5:21 PMSubject: Rod Decal maker All,I thought I saw a post in the recent past about adecal maker who "likes fisherman?" Anyone know if I'mcorrect and if so could they forward his web sitelink? I'd appreciate any help I could get. Thanks,Chris __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from jojo@ipa.net Fri Mar 8 23:07:33 2002 g2957W823880 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 23:07:32 -0600 helo=default) id 16jZ4t-0002v0-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sat, 09 Mar 2002 00:07:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Fw: A new urban name for you. Do we NEED it? Of course not.I'm sorry you don't appreciate having a little fun on the List. You probablydon't appreciate thelittle diversions into which we often go, either, the latest being shotguns, butI, for one, findall of it very interesting and quite often enlightening. I like getting to knowthese guys, and thefamilial things they share, like Bret and his son, or being informed of Ray'sgranddaughter, etc. Ipersonally know quite a few of the regular posters on the List, with manyothers I've never met, butfeel as though I know, and because of this I appreciate the things they post,even if it is offtopic. There may be others who also didn't care for the gangsta' posting, butdidn't say anything.Judging by the response I got, though, I'd say most of the regular postersgot a kick out of it. Weall give so much of our work, our thoughts, ideas, experiences in rodmaking,and I suppose you mustbenefit from this, or wouldn't stay subscribed. That being the case, about allI can tell you isyou've got to take the good with the bad. It's just the nature of things, oflife. M-D Do we really need this crap on the list? from jojo@ipa.net Sat Mar 9 01:08:33 2002 g2978X825379 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 01:08:33 -0600 helo=default) id 16jay0-0001Cy-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sat, 09 Mar 2002 02:08:32 -0500 Subject: Bellinger Rough-out Milling Machine The Bellinger machine that was listed on eBay was pulled due to some kind oftechnical problem, buthas been re-listed. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1811454880 Just thought some of you might want to know. M-D from geert.poorteman@undp.org Sat Mar 9 02:06:07 2002 g29866826132 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 02:06:06 -0600 g29862A04012 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 03:06:02 -0500 Sat, 9 Mar 2002 09:58:35 +0200 Subject: Re: long rod tapers. 5E9FE08203B26F0AEF2482E2" --------------5E9FE08203B26F0AEF2482E2 Hi Jim,there is a 12' two handed rod in the archives somewhere.Geert Don Schneider a Äcrit: Jim,While fishing on the Bow last summer using Al's streamer & wetfly recommendations, thanks Al, I had some of the best fishing in awhile. The thing I noticed was at times I needed a little moredistance than my 9' 6wt could muster. A lot of the area where I wasfishing there wasn't room for a back cast. Having my 14' 9wt Spey rodalong on the trip I gave it a shot as a joke and I could get to all ofthe river/fish I needed but an overkill to say the least. When I sawthe taper for this rod I said perfect. So I'm going to make one rodper the taper, second with a short extension on the grip, so I can twohand spey cast with it, and a third set up as a 12' 6wt Spey rod. Theymay all turn out to be tomato stakes but that wouldn't be the firstones I made. We'll see.Anyone have any words of wisdom???Don----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Bureau Re: long rod tapers.Hello Don: from the information I heard last year at Grayrocks, there's aprobability that the B.F Nichols identified rod is actually a ChubbRod. Reed would be the one to talk to about this as he owns the rodand has looked further into it's origins. I haven't cast any other 10ft rod but I can tell you that this rod of Reed's is indeed a rod I'llmake for myself. It's slow but not as slow as you might think and isso easy to cast and has some reserve power. I also think the 6 wtline is the best choice for streamer and wet fly fishing. I couldn'tbelieve the roll casts off the dock with the rod, and being 10 ft longit would lift a hell of a lot of line off the water with very littleeffort. I'm hoping to make one next year but keep getting sidetracked know if you make the rod. I'll be interested to hear your thoughtsabout the rod. Jim --------------5E9FE08203B26F0AEF2482E2 Hi Jim,there is a 12' two handed rod in the archives somewhere.Geert Don Schneider a écrit: Jim,Whilefishing on the Bow last summer using Al's streamer & wet flyrecommendations,thanks Al, I had some of the best fishing in a while. The thing I noticedwas at times I needed a little more distance than my 9' 6wt could muster.A lot of the area where I was fishing there wasn't room for a back cast.Having my 14' 9wt Spey rod along on the trip I gave it a shot as a jokeand I could get to all of the river/fish I needed but an overkill to saythe least. When I saw the taper for this rod I said perfect. So I'm goingto make one rod per the taper, second with a short extension on the grip,so I can two hand spey cast with it, and a third set up as a 12' 6wt Speyrod. They may all turn out to be tomato stakes but that wouldn't be thefirst ones I made. We'll see.Anyonehave any words of wisdom???Don----- Original Message -----From: JimBureau Friday, March 08, 2002 3:41 PMSubject: Re: long rod tapers. Grayrocks,there's a probability that the B.F Nichols identified rod is actually aChubb Rod. Reed would be the one to talk to about this as he owns the rodand has looked further into it's origins. I haven't cast any other 10 ftrod but I can tell you that this rod of Reed's is indeed a rod I'll make the best choice for streamer and wet fly fishing. I couldn't believe theroll casts off the dock with the rod, and being 10 ft long it would lifta hell of a lot of line off the water with very little effort. I'm hopingto make one next year but keep getting sidetracked by these little shortrods I keep making. Like I need another! Let me know if you make the rod.I'll be interested to hear your thoughts about the rod. Jim --------------5E9FE08203B26F0AEF2482E2-- from mrc@mars.plala.or.jp Sat Mar 9 03:52:10 2002 g299q8829555 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 03:52:09 -0600 id g299q6b03204 for ; Sat, 9 Mar2002 18:52:06 +0900 (JST) id SAA26799 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 200218:52:05 +0900 (JST) Subject: Deflection in casting Hello friends, I put an animation of a rod's deflection during casting at the followingURL.Please visit if you're interested. http://maxrod.tripod.com under the title banner, there is a link(small button) to English Home. You comment, criticism, opinions are most appreciated in English Guestbook. Thank you. Max from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Sat Mar 9 07:37:18 2002 g29DbH801650 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 07:37:18 -0600 g29Db9dd016178 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 08:37:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Fw: A new urban name for you. g29DbI801651 M-D, And some folks seem to forget there is a delete key. Takes a lot less time to delete an email, than to write a 9 word sentence, such as below..... I thought the web site was pretty funny meself..... ;^? Mark At 11:01 PM 3/8/02 -0600, you wrote: Do we NEED it? Of course not.I'm sorry you don't appreciate having a little fun on the List. You probably don't appreciate thelittle diversions into which we often go, either, the latest being shotguns, but I, for one, findall of it very interesting and quite often enlightening. I like getting to know these guys, and thefamilial things they share, like Bret and his son, or being informed of Ray's granddaughter, etc. Ipersonally know quite a few of the regular posters on the List, with many others I've never met, butfeel as though I know, and because of this I appreciate the things they post, even if it is offtopic. There may be others who also didn't care for the gangsta' posting, but didn't say anything.Judging by the response I got, though, I'd say most of the regular posters got a kick out of it. Weall give so much of our work, our thoughts, ideas, experiences in rodmaking, and I suppose you mustbenefit from this, or wouldn't stay subscribed. That being the case, about all I can tell you isyou've got to take the good with the bad. It's just the nature of things, of life. M-D From: Do we really need this crap on the list? from bob@downandacross.com Sat Mar 9 07:45:40 2002 g29Djc801966 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 07:45:39 -0600 9 Mar 2002 08:45:29 -0500 Subject: RE: Deflection in casting, Charles Ritz Dear Max:I think the animation is fascinating. I would like to know how this type ofprogramming could help you generate a feel for a taper in the design stages.I am not a real stress curve wizard, but the rise and fall of the graphthroughout the casting stroke seems much more accurate than a purelystaticdeflection would be. I hope you keep fascinating us with this sort of stuffin the future, it is very well done.Thanks. To the list:Max's graph made me think of somehting I have been reading, the CharlesRitzbook, A Flyfisher's Life. I picked up a $12 copy last week and have beenenjoying the reading of it. I wonder if the casting instructors on the listwho might be familiar with the book could comment on Ritz's High Line HighSpeed method of casting. I have not read enough of the book to figure outwhether it is "bunk" yet, and I have not read a lot of other casting info tocompare it too. I consider myself a decent caster and a better angler, butwould of course like to improve as it seems absolutely essential to thecraft of rodmaking. Any opinions, recommendations, or ideas would beappreciated on or off list.Best regards,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Deflection in casting Hello friends, I put an animation of a rod's deflection during casting at the followingURL.Please visit if you're interested. http://maxrod.tripod.com under the title banner, there is a link(small button) to English Home. You comment, criticism, opinions are most appreciated in English Guestbook. Thank you. Max from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Sat Mar 9 08:40:09 2002 g29Ee8803755 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 08:40:08 -0600 Sat, 9 Mar 2002 06:39:55 -0800 Sat, 09 Mar 2002 14:39:55 GMT rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Deflection in casting, Charles Ritz FILETIME=[47BB6170:01C1C778] Bob: on Jason Borger's must read list for casting instructors. Not only does the Jim this type of the design stages. the graph than a purely static sort of stuff reading, the Charles Ritz and have been instructors on the list Ritz's High Line High book to figure out casting info to better angler, but essential to the Max following English Home. English Guestbook. Send and receive Hotmail on yourmobile device: ClickHere from bob@downandacross.com Sat Mar 9 09:08:28 2002 g29F8R804202 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 09:08:27 -0600 9 Mar 2002 10:08:21 -0500 Subject: RE: Deflection in casting, Charles Ritz Thanks Jim. I should refrain from the use of "bunk." I think the book isgreat so far, but sometimes authors are a bit full of themselves. Their is aslight air of this in what I have read so far.Thanks,Bob -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Deflection in casting, Charles Ritz Bob: I haven't read the book "A Fly Fisher's Life" but it's on Jason Borger'smust read list for casting instructors. Not only does the book discuss theHS/HL casting of Ritz, it also has information on the Belgian Cast Thisbook is no bunk, it's the real deal. Jim far, but sometimes authors are a bit full of themselves. Their is a = of this in what I have read so far.Thanks,Bob owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Behalf Of Jim BureauSent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Deflection incasting, = Ritz Bob: on Jason Borger's must read list for casting instructors. Not only = Jim from rmoon@ida.net Sat Mar 9 09:16:53 2002 g29FGq804571 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 09:16:52 -0600 Subject: Re: Deflection in casting Max. Totally Awsome.Ralph Max wrote: Hello friends, I put an animation of a rod's deflection during casting at the followingURL.Please visit if you're interested. http://maxrod.tripod.com under the title banner, there is a link(small button) to English Home. You comment, criticism, opinions are most appreciated in EnglishGuestbook. Thank you. Max --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from beadman@mac.com Sat Mar 9 09:20:47 2002 g29FKk804843 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 09:20:46 -0600 2002)) Subject: RE: Deflection in casting, Charles Ritz I agree, Max - fascinating work. Bob: the thing to remember about Garrison's stress curves, and my adaptions for 4 and 5 sided rods, is that these are the theoretical maximum stress curves that a rod should be allowed to have without damage (there's a built in safety factor, also). This would probably come close to occurring at the point of maximum acceleration/deflection of the rod tip during the cast. As Max's stress curve chart shows, there is relatively no stress on a rod at rest, but as it begins to accelerate, the forces acting on the rod tip ( from trying to accelerate the mass of the line) will begin to put more and more stress on the rod. Claude At 8:45 AM -0500 , 3/9/02, Bob Maulucci wrote about RE: Deflection in casting, Charles Ritz Dear Max:I think the animation is fascinating. I would like to know how this type ofprogramming could help you generate a feel for a taper in the designstages.I am not a real stress curve wizard, but the rise and fall of the graphthroughout the casting stroke seems much more accurate than a purelystaticdeflection would be. I hope you keep fascinating us with this sort of stuffin the future, it is very well done.Thanks. To the list:Max's graph made me think of somehting I have been reading, the CharlesRitzbook, A Flyfisher's Life. I picked up a $12 copy last week and have beenenjoying the reading of it. I wonder if the casting instructors on the listwho might be familiar with the book could comment on Ritz's High Line HighSpeed method of casting. I have not read enough of the book to figure outwhether it is "bunk" yet, and I have not read a lot of other casting info tocompare it too. I consider myself a decent caster and a better angler, butwould of course like to improve as it seems absolutely essential to thecraft of rodmaking. Any opinions, recommendations, or ideas would beappreciated on or off list.Best regards,Bob -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 4:51 AM Subject: Deflection in casting Hello friends, I put an animation of a rod's deflection during casting at the followingURL.Please visit if you're interested. http://maxrod.tripod.com under the title banner, there is a link(small button) to English Home. You comment, criticism, opinions are most appreciated in EnglishGuestbook. Thank you. Max from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Mar 9 09:35:56 2002 g29FZs805272 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 09:35:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Deflection in casting Max has come up with precisely what I've been going on about when it comes to computer design of tapers.Max's work seems to take into account the forces a rod experiences during casting over the entire rod dynamically and not static beam measurements.Very, very good work Max. At 06:51 PM 3/9/02 +0900, Max wrote: Hello friends, I put an animation of a rod's deflection during casting at the followingURL.Please visit if you're interested. http://maxrod.tripod.com under the title banner, there is a link(small button) to English Home. You comment, criticism, opinions are most appreciated in EnglishGuestbook. Thank you. Max /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from mrc@mars.plala.or.jp Sat Mar 9 10:24:50 2002 g29GOm805981 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 10:24:49 -0600 id g29GOin02002; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 01:24:44 +0900 (JST) id BAA07086; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 01:24:42 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Deflection in casting, Charles Ritz Dear Bob, Thank you for nice words. I am glad to Q&A on the list if you like.I am now writing pages to explain how the graphs are drawn. It's a longstory. I can tell you why I made this. As all of us know, Frank Stetzer's WebinterfaceHexrod program, and its origin of Wayne's Hexrod, are both very useful forus.I still use those. Thanks Garrison, Wayne, and Frank. Recently I got interested in using Japanese bamboo species for fly rods.We can stretch, shorten, increase or decrease the length of the rod by usingabove programs very conveniently. But when we make a rod according tothetaper derived from Hexrod, I feel the rod is winpy because of the lessstiffnessof the Japanese bamboo. So, I needed a method to translate the existingclassic tapersinto the ones for Japanese bamboos. How to do it? It is the beginning. I have long been studying how to know the deflection from the time I learnedrodmaking. It's a really long story by starting with the study of cantileverbeam toMOE (Modulus of Elasticity, that is the stiffness of a bamboo),and other topics of physics. And finally I guess I learned most of them. To know the taper of the rod for a different bamboo which has a differentbending characteristic,I had to once acquire the deflection of the original rod. Otherwise, Hexroddoes notcarry any attributs of deflection other than bamboo weight.So, I investigated the MOE of Tonkin and Japanese bamoos as well as theirweight per unit.Bob Milward's book also helped me on this. Thanks Bob.After knowing how the rod would deflect by Tonkin, I will change the MOEattribute to the oneof Japanese bamboo, then the program should reverse calculate the taperbased on the MOE of Japanese bamboo. When this is done, we can have a new taper of a classic rod which can endurewith Japanesewinpy bamboo stiffness. Though the program to calculate the taper is notcompleted yet,it would soon be completed maybe within this year. I also read the book of Don Phillips about casting, translated rod, rotatedflexed rod, extended arm etc..To know the rod deflection, I needed to know the casting itself. Don's bookgave me a nice advises to knowhow a rod is accellerated according to the different style of casting.The simulated rod deflection in casting is the result of my understanding ofthose above. Then how it can be applied to rod design?Well,cough.This program has two stages.The first stage is to define the casting. The program can define ANYcasting, translated rod,rotated rod, rotated flexed rod, extended arm, foward cast, backward cast,shooting, even picking upfly line, as you like in any speed. No hooking a fish, no hooking a treeyet. The second stage will make various needed calculations and generatemomentcurve, stress curve,deflection graphs as well as auto generation of rod parts data such asdeciding the size of top guide,ferrules, etc..So far, the program can only generate those graphs of deflection, stress,moment etc., based of thedefined casting. First I take the existing classic taper and input them to the program.Program will gnerate how the rod will deflect by the graph.Then I change the specification of bamboo from Tonkin to one of Japanesebamboos.The program will change the bending attribute of bamboo by a table thengenerate the deflectionwith the new bamboo. I look at the simulated deflection, and adjust theoriginal taper slightly.Again I produce graphs. These processes are repeated. So it is stillsimulation manner. In additon to the bamboo data, the program can accept the changes of arod'sarea shape among round, quad and hex, Hollowed or Solid, the ratio ofhollow, etc.. calculation logics have no bug). Deflection can be changed by the casting as you know.But How! When a rod should be rotated, pushed and how fast, etc..The progam seems to be usable for analysing a casting. Second finding is how stress curve changes when a rod is accellerated. of rod accelleration. Tip side does nothave increased stress so much but grip side is moving up drastically, likethe current hexrod's stress curve ofPHY's Parabolic #17, that is up right. This seems related with how the center of gravity (CG) of a rod is locatedon the rod.A heavier tip rod, for instance, will generate more moment at grip (upright). A balanced tapered rod would generate moments in a harmonizedmanner (in parallel). Sir D special would have more stress at tip sectionthan butt section which means that this rod has more tip oriented action (upleft) .I am feeling that those matters would become one of directions of roddesign. The third finding is about Hexrod. Though the simulation has to realizemost of the aspects of reallity, it is impossible to pick up all the aspectsin designing one taper. For instance, which stage of stress, deflection,moment set should be used among full course of casting? To make a fixeddesign, we have to select only one combination of the parameter set at onetime. So, Hexrod is very usable because it is picking up one situationamong those.I found that all the combination of stress, moment, deflection set canproduce exactly the same dimension.This is true since the same rod is generationg different deflection, stresseand moment sets when the rod's accelleration is generated differently. I guess I also found why Garrison took 4 as impact factor.Does someone know about this already? While analysing the accelleration of several casting style of Don Phillips,when I specified extended arm parameters into the program, the programcalculated the accelleration of TIP TOP based on the movement of the rod,rotation, and grip, it is about 4 G equivalent. G is Gravity accelleation,9.8m/sec2.So I guessed, Garrison took the maximum accelleration from the most forcedcasting style of Extended arm, though he multiplied 4 to entire length of arod instead to only to tip top. Extended arm is a movement where a rod tip moves around 15 feet in onesecond, by rotating a rod between 2 o'clock to 10 o'clock with handmovement5 feet in a second (horizontally), using body with extended arm.(source: The Technology of Fly Rods, by Don Phillips) If this program can, even logically, simulate the actual rod movements, moreinteresting findings might come out, I hope. One of my colleage named thisprogram as Max's soul (Tamashi) soft, I gladly accepted it. Sorry for a long post. Max Dear Max:I think the animation is fascinating. I would like to know how this type of programming could help you generate a feel for a taper in the design stages. I am not a real stress curve wizard, but the rise and fall of the graphthroughout the casting stroke seems much more accurate than a purely static deflection would be. I hope you keep fascinating us with this sort of stuff in the future, it is very well done.Thanks. To the list:Max's graph made me think of somehting I have been reading, the Charles Ritz book, A Flyfisher's Life. I picked up a $12 copy last week and have beenenjoying the reading of it. I wonder if the casting instructors on the list who might be familiar with the book could comment on Ritz's High Line HighSpeed method of casting. I have not read enough of the book to figure outwhether it is "bunk" yet, and I have not read a lot of other casting info to compare it too. I consider myself a decent caster and a better angler, butwould of course like to improve as it seems absolutely essential to thecraft of rodmaking. Any opinions, recommendations, or ideas would beappreciated on or off list.Best regards,Bob from dybam@oct.net Sat Mar 9 11:59:10 2002 g29Hx9807217 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 11:59:10 -0600 Subject: Re: Burled wood spacer Communications, Inc. Dear Everybody,I would very much like to know the opinions of rod builders concerning whatthey think is the best looking wood color for a flamed rod.Also your opinion on the best color rod rapping to compliment the spacer.Mark----- Original Message ----- Subject: Bellinger Rough-out Milling Machine The Bellinger machine that was listed on eBay was pulled due to some kind of technical problem, but has been re-listed. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1811454880 Just thought some of you might want to know. M-D from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sat Mar 9 12:16:33 2002 g29IGX807684 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 12:16:33 -0600 Sat, 9 Mar 2002 12:16:23 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Diameter of reelfoot Thread-Topic: Diameter of reelfootThread-Index: AcHGTDoCH76b9zI0Eda4KgBglOouXwAyTJ8g FILETIME=[853E29B0:01C1C796] surface for the reel seat....BK -----Original Message----- Subject: Diameter of reelfoot As a carpenter by trade, I have only one finger nail bit, and it is 1 =1/2" size. [used it on counter top edges] I tried it to make a Payne =type mortice, which turned out pretty flat, but with some arch. The =thing is, the reel is anchored REALLY solid as it is not sitting on an =arch that lets it rotate. Has anyone done this type of mortice before? =I've got an order in for the small size bits too, but kinda like this.Chad 0DocumentEmail Fo=r manyyears Orvis has made cork double-ring reel seats with a flat surface for =thereel seat….BK -----OriginalMessage-----From: chad wigham Sent: Thursday, March07, =20029:52 PM Subject: Diameter of =reelfoot As =acarpenter by trade, I have only one finger nail bit, and it is 1 =1/2"size. [used it on counter top edges] I tried it to make a Payne type =mortice,which turned out pretty flat, but with some arch. The thing is, the reel =isanchored REALLY solid as it is not sitting on an arch that lets it =rotate. Hasanyone done this type of mortice before? I've got an order in for the =smallsize bits too, but kinda like this. Chad from dybam@oct.net Sat Mar 9 12:50:00 2002 g29Inx808621 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 12:50:00 -0600 "Rodmakers discussion group" Subject: Re: Burled wood spacer Communications, Inc. I need to correct my first message.What I want to know is the best woodcolor for the spacer to complement a flamed rod.Mark----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Burled wood spacer Dear Everybody,I would very much like to know the opinions of rod builders concerning what they think is the best looking wood color for a flamed rod.Also your opinion on the best color rod rapping to compliment the spacer.Mark----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 1:02 AMSubject: Bellinger Rough-out Milling Machine The Bellinger machine that was listed on eBay was pulled due to some kind of technical problem, but has been re-listed. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1811454880 Just thought some of you might want to know. M-D from iank@ts.co.nz Sat Mar 9 14:10:20 2002 g29KAI810084 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:10:19 -0600 by sage.ts.co.nz (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g29KKEM30768 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu.KAV; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:20:14+1300 Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:20:13 +1300 Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending too great a timeyarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least tryingtoo) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time tospend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message ----- Subject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the Great Southern inNZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ from rmoon@ida.net Sat Mar 9 14:53:55 2002 g29Krt810783 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:53:55 -0600 Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ IanPlease tell me he didn' t do it again. You have to be kidding.Ralph Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending too great a timeyarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least tryingtoo) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time tospend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the Great Southern inNZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from richjez@enteract.com Sat Mar 9 16:18:07 2002 g29MI6812380 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:18:06 -0600 Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ I wonder if those drains spinning in the opposite direction can throw one's orientation, hence balance off. If so, with some libation, it might lead to a hazardous situation. Tony, did you find that effect you up here?Rich Jezioro At 02:53 PM 3/9/2002, Ralph W. Moon wrote: IanPlease tell me he didn' t do it again. You have to be kidding.Ralph Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending too great atimeyarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least tryingtoo) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time tospend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the Great Southern in NZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from ajthramer@hotmail.com Sat Mar 9 16:48:52 2002 g29Mmp813033 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:48:52 -0600 Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:48:46 -0800 Sat, 09 Mar 2002 22:48:46 GMT Subject: Re: Burled wood spacer FILETIME=[924F8AB0:01C1C7BC] Walnut, spanish cedar, cherry after a year or two, redwood burl, honduran mahogany, bacote, dk reds, browns, dk tans, pink, burnt orange/rust, olive, blackA.J. From: "Mark Dyba" Subject: Re: Burled wood spacerDate: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 12:44:59 -0600 I need to correct my first message.What I want to know is the best woodcolor for the spacer to complement a flamed rod.Mark----- Original Message -----From: Mark Dyba Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 11:54 AMSubject: Re: Burled wood spacer Dear Everybody,I would very much like to know the opinions of rod builders concerning what they think is the best looking wood color for a flamed rod.Also your opinion on the best color rod rapping to compliment the spacer. Mark----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 1:02 AMSubject: Bellinger Rough-out Milling Machine The Bellinger machine that was listed on eBay was pulled due to some kind of technical problem, but has been re-listed. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1811454880 Just thought some of you might want to know. M-D _________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com from ajthramer@hotmail.com Sat Mar 9 16:50:15 2002 g29MoE813206 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:50:14 -0600 Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:50:09 -0800 Sat, 09 Mar 2002 22:50:08 GMT Subject: RE: Diameter of reelfoot FILETIME=[C38D4900:01C1C7BC] Weren't Young's dbl rings that way also?A.J. From: "Kling, Barry W." Subject: RE: Diameter of reelfootDate: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 12:16:23 -0600 surface for the reel seat....BK -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:52 PM Subject: Diameter of reelfoot As a carpenter by trade, I have only one finger nail bit, and it is 1 1/2" size. [used it on counter top edges] I tried it to make a Payne type mortice, which turned out pretty flat, but with some arch. The thing is, the reel is anchored REALLY solid as it is not sitting on an arch that lets it rotate. Has anyone done this type of mortice before? I've got an order in for the small size bits too, but kinda like this.Chad _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com from BambooRods@aol.com Sat Mar 9 16:55:33 2002 g29MtX813519 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:55:33 -0600 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:55:19 -0500 Subject: Old reels and grinding the feet I have recently acquired some old pflueger reels (1492, Progress 60 & 80). They were valentines presents from Cindy. Anyway, they are really nice andI hate to grind the feet down so they will fit on the reel seats. What thoughts do you all have. I just feel that it would be disrespecting of the reels to grind. Doug HallBroad River Bamboo from dnorl@qwest.net Sat Mar 9 17:51:15 2002 g29NpE814625 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:51:14 -0600 (63.228.46.110) Subject: Re: Old reels and grinding the feet They used to advertise replacement feet for the Medalist. Anyone rememberthat. Maybe they are still available.Dave N.-----Original Message----- Subject: Old reels and grinding the feet I have recently acquired some old pflueger reels (1492, Progress 60 & 80).They were valentines presents from Cindy. Anyway, they are really niceand I hate to grind the feet down so they will fit on the reel seats. What thoughts do you all have. I just feel that it would be disrespecting of the reels to grind. Doug HallBroad River Bamboo from channer@frontier.net Sat Mar 9 17:53:18 2002 g29NrH814852 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:53:17 -0600 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:06:55 -0700 Subject: Re: Burled wood spacer Mark;The really neat thing about building rods yourself is that YOU get todecide what looks good on it! You don't think anyone around here has anytaste in these things anyway, do you? LOL! Personally, I thinkeverything except Douglas Fir looks great (sick to death of it, workwith the stuff darn near every day)johnMark Dyba wrote: Dear Everybody,I would very much like to know the opinions of rod builders concerning whatthey think is the best looking wood color for a flamed rod.Also your opinion on the best color rod rapping to compliment the spacer.Mark----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 1:02 AMSubject: Bellinger Rough-out Milling Machine The Bellinger machine that was listed on eBay was pulled due to somekind of technical problem, but has been re-listed. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1811454880 Just thought some of you might want to know. M-D from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Mar 9 18:06:36 2002 g2A06Z815234 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 18:06:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Old reels and grinding the feet In a message dated 3/9/2 11:51:50 PM, dnorl@qwest.net writes: Dave - They were called "One Pfoot", and are no longer available, to the best of my knowledge. from cw@vanion.com Sat Mar 9 18:19:47 2002 g2A0Jk815595 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 18:19:46 -0600 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:24:41 -0700 Subject: Wood Spacers I'm in the process of figuring out what hardwoods are what. For the past =couple of weeks, I've just been looking up names of woods, and pictures =of each type,[ on e-bay- turning & goldenwitch] , and if you see =something that you really like, I guess that's what goes best on a =flamed rod. I just got some Leucospermum Root to play with. Sawatche I'm in the process of figuring out = hardwoods are what. For the past couple of weeks, I've just been looking = names of woods, and pictures of each type,[ on e-bay- turning & = , and if you see something that you really like, I guess that's what = Sawatche from cw@vanion.com Sat Mar 9 18:24:47 2002 g2A0Ok815882 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 18:24:46 -0600 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:29:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Old reels and grinding the feet I recall some guys on Clark's Restoration page talking about Pflueger reelfoot access. Might check their back log.-----Original Message----- ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Old reels and grinding the feet In a message dated 3/9/2 11:51:50 PM, dnorl@qwest.net writes: that. Maybe they are still available. >> Dave - They were called "One Pfoot", and are no longer available, to the best of my knowledge. from guille32@tutopia.com Sat Mar 9 18:26:33 2002 g2A0QW816095 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 18:26:33 -0600 magoo) 2002 19:26:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Guillermo's Leaders Hello everyone, I wish to thank you for the concern and the desire to help that you all =have expressed on this list. You are good people. I am amazed at the =concern that one group of people can show.The situation here in Argentina is really bad. By far, we are in the =middle of our worst economical and political crisis ever. Many people =here suffer everyday from diverse reasons, however, thank God, my wife =and I are doing just fine.Making and selling leaders is fun, a hobby for us, and we don=B4t rely = What I mean is, that I deeply appreciate you gentlemen coming to my aid, =only it=B4s not necessary to do so. I will be more than happy to sell =leaders, but would prefer that you want them as you need them, and not =as a "relief effort" [:-)] That is not to say that your efforts on my =behalf go unappreciated.I have been a list member for a while, and all this has helped to =reasure me of my conviction that you are a great group of people, with =whom I am proud to be associated.Thank you friends. Guillermo Hello everyone, I wish to thank you for the concern and the desire to help that you = have expressed on this list. You are good people. I am amazed at the = that one group of people can show.The situation here in Argentina is really bad. By far, we are in = of our worst economical and political crisis ever. Many people here = everyday from diverse reasons, however, thank God, my wife and I are = fine.Making and selling leaders is fun, a hobby for us, and we don=B4t = What I mean is, that I deeply appreciate you gentlemen coming to my = only it=B4s not necessary to do so. I will be more than happy to sell = would prefer that you want them as you need them, and not as a "relief = [:-)] That is not to say that your efforts on my behalf go =unappreciated.I have been a list member for a while, and all this has helped to = me of my conviction that you are a great group of people, with whom I am = to be associated.Thank you friends. Guillermo from jojo@ipa.net Sat Mar 9 18:43:28 2002 g2A0hS816513 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 18:43:28 -0600 helo=default) id 16jrQs-0007Va-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sat, 09 Mar 2002 19:43:27 -0500 Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ Ian, please provide all the gory Bob details. M-D IanPlease tell me he didn' t do it again. You have to be kidding.Ralph Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending too great a timeyarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least tryingtoo) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time tospend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the Great Southern inNZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from Troutgetter@aol.com Sat Mar 9 19:28:10 2002 g2A1S9817304 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 19:28:09 -0600 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 20:27:52 -0500 Subject: shop accident All.Before Adam makes a big deal out of it, I almost (according to my friend) cut my thumb off showing him how to split bamboo. I just wanted to say it first before Adam started giving tips on how to "properly" split bamboo.Mike Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from ldboyko@cpinternet.com Sat Mar 9 19:37:47 2002 g2A1bk817992 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 19:37:46 -0600 g2A1bfMS028840; Subject: Re: Guillermo's Leaders Hi Guillermo: I have been watching the articles on your leaders and no =matter what, when they get an order put togather, I will be on it. =Several weeks ago, a fellow from here in Minnesota, Bob White who fishes =and quides for trout in your country. He showed us slides, the rivers, =your country, serveral cities, it looks just beautiful there, so no =matter what, we are pulling for Argentina, and hope and pray everything =gets back on track and soon to. Hang in there,, Lelw =ldboyko@cpinternet.com Subject: Re: Guillermo's Leaders Hello everyone, I wish to thank you for the concern and the desire to help that you =all have expressed on this list. You are good people. I am amazed at the =concern that one group of people can show.The situation here in Argentina is really bad. By far, we are in the =middle of our worst economical and political crisis ever. Many people =here suffer everyday from diverse reasons, however, thank God, my wife =and I are doing just fine.Making and selling leaders is fun, a hobby for us, and we don=B4t rely = What I mean is, that I deeply appreciate you gentlemen coming to my =aid, only it=B4s not necessary to do so. I will be more than happy to =sell leaders, but would prefer that you want them as you need them, and =not as a "relief effort" [:-)] That is not to say that your efforts on my =behalf go unappreciated.I have been a list member for a while, and all this has helped to =reasure me of my conviction that you are a great group of people, with =whom I am proud to be associated.Thank you friends. Guillermo Minnesota, Bob White who fishes and quides for trout in your country. He = us slides, the rivers, your country, serveral cities, it looks just = there, so no matter what, we are pulling for Argentina, and hope and = ----- Original Message ----- Magari=F1os Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 = PMSubject: Re: Guillermo's =Leaders Hello everyone, I wish to thank you for the concern and the desire to help that = have expressed on this list. You are good people. I am amazed at the = that one group of people can show.The situation here in Argentina is really bad. By far, we are in = middle of our worst economical and political crisis ever. Many people = suffer everyday from diverse reasons, however, thank God, my wife and = doing just fine.Making and selling leaders is fun, a hobby for us, and we don=B4t = What I mean is, that I deeply appreciate you gentlemen coming to = only it=B4s not necessary to do so. I will be more than happy to sell = but would prefer that you want them as you need them, and not as a = unappreciated.I have been a list member for a while, and all this has helped to = me of my conviction that you are a great group of people, with whom I = to be associated.Thank you friends. Guillermo from EM11EM22@aol.com Sat Mar 9 19:45:33 2002 g2A1jW818308 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 19:45:32 -0600 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 20:45:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Old reels and grinding the feet Doug,20 years ago, I ground down the foot on some old Pflueger's to make themfit. They are chrome over brass.When I was looking for a fix for the "big foot" problem, I found and bought several replacement feet for the Pflueger pfly reel p from a pfella making them in New Hampshire. They are called the "One- Pfoot". This was circa 1987.I have not seen these sold in years................But here the particulars..............W.S. Franke Custom Fishing RodsP.O. Box 456 North Main StreetNorth Conway, New Hampshire 03860603-356- rodsRegards,Edward Miller(on the west coast) In a message dated 3/9/02 2:56:16 PM, BambooRods@aol.com writes: from KyleDruey@aol.com Sat Mar 9 20:46:28 2002 g2A2kS821569 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 20:46:28 -0600 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 21:46:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Deflection in casting Looks very much like the kind of work Montagne did. I hope Max shares with us his modeling. Good work, Max! In a message dated 03/09/2002 7:36:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, avyoung@iinet.net.au writes: Max has come up with precisely what I've been going on about when itcomes to computer design of tapers.Max's work seems to take into account the forces a rod experiences during casting over the entire rod dynamically and not static beammeasurements.Very, very good work Max.At 06:51 PM 3/9/02 +0900, Max wrote:Hello friends, I put an animation of a rod's deflection during casting at the followingURL.Please visit if you're interested. http://maxrod.tripod.com under the title banner, there is a link(small button) to English Home. You comment, criticism, opinions are most appreciated in English Guestbook. Thank you. Max /*************************************************************************/AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.htmlChristmas Gift TipsAvoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label:Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/----------------------- Headers --------------------------------Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (rly-yc04.mail.aol.com Sat, 09 Mar 2002 10:36:13 -0500 rly- Sat, 09 Mar 2002 10:36:08 -0500 g29Fa6805315; g29FZs805272 Received: (qmail 27543 invoked by uid 666); 9 Mar 2002 15:35:45 - 0000Received: from unknown (HELO tony.iinet.net.au) (203.59.164.88) Message-Id: X-Sender: avyoung@mail.iinet.net.auX-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 23:42:34 +0800 From: Tony Young Subject: Re: Deflection in casting References: Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduX-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Mar 9 21:14:02 2002 g2A3E0822339 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 21:14:01 -0600 Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ Yeah, well you would say that wouldn't ya [:-)] At 08:56 AM 3/11/02 +1300, Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending too great a timeyarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least tryingtoo) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time tospend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the Great Southern inNZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Mar 9 21:14:03 2002 g2A3E1822340 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 21:14:02 -0600 Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ I hate to be the one to kill an urban myth but no, they drain the same way. I took special notice of the direction of spin before leaving. I was most disappointed.Funny thing though. I saw an episode of Michael Pallin's (Monty Python) Pole To Pole and when he was on the equator at possibly Victoria Falls in Africa there were two wash basins one on either side of the equator separated by just a foot or two. There was no plumbing beneath the basins so there could be no simulated effect.He plugged the basins and filled them with water then pulled the plugs and the water did indeed drain in opposite directions.I have no answer. Tony At 04:12 PM 3/9/02 -0600, Rich Jezioro wrote: I wonder if those drains spinning in the opposite direction can throw one's orientation, hence balance off. If so, with some libation, it might lead to a hazardous situation. Tony, did you find that effect you up here?Rich Jezioro At 02:53 PM 3/9/2002, Ralph W. Moon wrote: IanPlease tell me he didn' t do it again. You have to be kidding.Ralph Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending too great atimeyarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least tryingtoo) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time tospend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the GreatSouthern in NZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from KyleDruey@aol.com Sat Mar 9 22:54:01 2002 g2A4s0823903 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2002 22:54:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Deflection in casting, Charles Ritz Hi Max, I do have some questions, and I hope the list doesn't mind an open Q&A that is posted. I think it could generate some very interesting discussion. Did you use Garrison's stress to determine the deflection, or did you derive the stress based on your own modeling? BTW, the impact factor of 4 used by Garrison was his estimate of thedynamic deflection divided by the static deflection. He talks about this in his book. Thanks again for some great work, Kyle In a message dated 03/09/2002 8:25:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, mrc@mars.plala.or.jp writes: Dear Bob,Thank you for nice words. I am glad to Q&A on the list if you like.I am now writing pages to explain how the graphs are drawn. It's a longstory.I can tell you why I made this. As all of us know, Frank Stetzer's WebinterfaceHexrod program, and its origin of Wayne's Hexrod, are both very useful forus.I still use those. Thanks Garrison, Wayne, and Frank.Recently I got interested in using Japanese bamboo species for fly rods.We can stretch, shorten, increase or decrease the length of the rod by using above programs very conveniently. But when we make a rod according tothetaper derived from Hexrod, I feel the rod is winpy because of the lessstiffnessof the Japanese bamboo. So, I needed a method to translate the existingclassic tapersinto the ones for Japanese bamboos. How to do it? It is the beginning.I have long been studying how to know the deflection from the time I learned rodmaking. It's a really long story by starting with the study of cantileverbeam toMOE (Modulus of Elasticity, that is the stiffness of a bamboo),and other topics of physics. And finally I guess I learned most of them.To know the taper of the rod for a different bamboo which has adifferentbending characteristic,I had to once acquire the deflection of the original rod. Otherwise, Hexrod does notcarry any attributs of deflection other than bamboo weight.So, I investigated the MOE of Tonkin and Japanese bamoos as well as theirweight per unit.Bob Milward's book also helped me on this. Thanks Bob.After knowing how the rod would deflect by Tonkin, I will change the MOEattribute to the oneof Japanese bamboo, then the program should reverse calculate the taperbased on the MOE of Japanese bamboo.When this is done, we can have a new taper of a classic rod which can endure with Japanesewinpy bamboo stiffness. Though the program to calculate the taper is notcompleted yet,it would soon be completed maybe within this year.I also read the book of Don Phillips about casting, translated rod, rotatedflexed rod, extended arm etc..To know the rod deflection, I needed to know the casting itself. Don's book gave me a nice advises to knowhow a rod is accellerated according to the different style of casting.The simulated rod deflection in casting is the result of my understanding of those above.Then how it can be applied to rod design?Well,cough.This program has two stages.The first stage is to define the casting. The program can define ANYcasting, translated rod,rotated rod, rotated flexed rod, extended arm, foward cast, backwardcast,shooting, even picking upfly line, as you like in any speed. No hooking a fish, no hooking a treeyet.The second stage will make various needed calculations and generatemomentcurve, stress curve,deflection graphs as well as auto generation of rod parts data such asdeciding the size of top guide,ferrules, etc..So far, the program can only generate those graphs of deflection, stress,moment etc., based of thedefined casting.First I take the existing classic taper and input them to the program.Program will gnerate how the rod will deflect by the graph.Then I change the specification of bamboo from Tonkin to one of Japanesebamboos.The program will change the bending attribute of bamboo by a table thengenerate the deflectionwith the new bamboo. I look at the simulated deflection, and adjust theoriginal taper slightly.Again I produce graphs. These processes are repeated. So it is stillsimulation manner.In additon to the bamboo data, the program can accept the changes of a rod's area shape among round, quad and hex, Hollowed or Solid, the ratio ofhollow, etc.. calculation logics have no bug).Deflection can be changed by the casting as you know.But How! When a rod should be rotated, pushed and how fast, etc..The progam seems to be usable for analysing a casting.Second finding is how stress curve changes when a rod is accellerated. increaseof rod accelleration. this. Tip side does nothave increased stress so much but grip side is moving up drastically, likethe current hexrod's stress curve ofPHY's Parabolic #17, that is up right.This seems related with how the center of gravity (CG) of a rod islocatedon the rod.A heavier tip rod, for instance, will generate more moment at grip (upright). A balanced tapered rod would generate moments in a harmonizedmanner (in parallel). Sir D special would have more stress at tip sectionthan butt section which means that this rod has more tip oriented action (up left) .I am feeling that those matters would become one of directions of roddesign.The third finding is about Hexrod. Though the simulation has to realizemost of the aspects of reallity, it is impossible to pick up all the aspects in designing one taper. For instance, which stage of stress, deflection,moment set should be used among full course of casting? To make a fixeddesign, we have to select only one combination of the parameter set at onetime. So, Hexrod is very usable because it is picking up one situationamong those.I found that all the combination of stress, moment, deflection set canproduce exactly the same dimension.This is true since the same rod is generationg different deflection, stresse and moment sets when the rod's accelleration is generated differently.I guess I also found why Garrison took 4 as impact factor.Does someone know about this already?While analysing the accelleration of several casting style of Don Phillips,when I specified extended arm parameters into the program, the programcalculated the accelleration of TIP TOP based on the movement of the rod,rotation, and grip, it is about 4 G equivalent. G is Gravity accelleation,9.8m/sec2.So I guessed, Garrison took the maximum accelleration from the mostforcedcasting style of Extended arm, though he multiplied 4 to entire length of arod instead to only to tip top.Extended arm is a movement where a rod tip moves around 15 feet inonesecond, by rotating a rod between 2 o'clock to 10 o'clock with hand movement 5 feet in a second (horizontally), using body with extended arm.(source: The Technology of Fly Rods, by Don Phillips)If this program can, even logically, simulate the actual rod movements, more interesting findings might come out, I hope. One of my colleage named thisprogram as Max's soul (Tamashi) soft, I gladly accepted it.Sorry for a long post.MaxDear Max:I think the animation is fascinating. I would like to know how this typeofprogramming could help you generate a feel for a taper in the designstages.I am not a real stress curve wizard, but the rise and fall of the graphthroughout the casting stroke seems much more accurate than a purelystaticdeflection would be. I hope you keep fascinating us with this sort ofstuffin the future, it is very well done.Thanks. To the list:Max's graph made me think of somehting I have been reading, the CharlesRitzbook, A Flyfisher's Life. I picked up a $12 copy last week and have beenenjoying the reading of it. I wonder if the casting instructors on thelistwho might be familiar with the book could comment on Ritz's High Line High Speed method of casting. I have not read enough of the book to figureoutwhether it is "bunk" yet, and I have not read a lot of other casting infotocompare it too. I consider myself a decent caster and a better angler, but would of course like to improve as it seems absolutely essential to thecraft of rodmaking. Any opinions, recommendations, or ideas would beappreciated on or off list.Best regards,Bob----------------------- Headers ---------------------- ----------Return-Path: Received: from rly-xg01.mx.aol.com (rly-xg01.mail.aol.com Sat, 09 Mar 2002 11:25:18 -0500 rly- Sat, 09 Mar 2002 11:24:45 -0500 g29GPB806018; g29GOm805981 Message-ID: From: "Max" References: Subject: Re: Deflection in casting, Charles RitzDate: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 01:23:56 +0900 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitX-Priority: 3X-MSMail-Priority: NormalX- Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduX-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN from mrc@mars.plala.or.jp Sun Mar 10 01:38:38 2002 g2A7cb826029 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 01:38:37 - id g2A7cZC18877; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:38:35 +0900 (JST) id QAA26629; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:38:34 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Deflection in casting, Charles Ritz Kyle, Did you use Garrison's stress to determine the deflection, or did you derive the stress based on your own modeling? Garrison's stress calculation is not used in the anumation. But Hexrodstress curve isused outside the program to compare with the result of the program. I calculate the accelleration first as if I were in the space where nogravity functions.This is done for all the moved rod components from one situation to next.Then I return back to the earth and calculate the gravity of all thecomponents on therod, where for every material, gravity accelleration is applied. When you stand your rod vertically on the floor, does it keep standing?No, it will lean to some direction and then fall down. Thus gravity isalways workingon the earch and the gravity will generate a moment when the rod leans.Gravity accelleration on the earth is always 1 and this will makethe things weighed. Both of moving accelleration and gravity accelleration works for a castedrod inmy simulation. BTW, the impact factor of 4 used by Garrison was his estimate of the dynamic deflection divided by the static deflection. He talks about this in his book. It only means that as a result of multiplying 4 by the weight, thedeflection will become4 times of static deflection. (not sure about this.) Then why 4?, not 5? When I read the book, book only said that Garrison decided his impact factoras "4" So, I guess it came from a fastest casting style, that is extended arm whichIintroduced in my last post. It will generate 4G accelleration at Tip Top(only) Multiplying impact factor of 4 by the weight of rod components,will mean that every rod components move in the speedwhich is caused by the accelleration of 4x Gravity accelleration. It is equivalent to the situation that a rod is fallen down from the top of a ladder, where the rod is in parallel to thehorizon, and some one suddenly grasp the grip of rod 4 second later. This force was first found by Newton, your friend, by looking atan apple is falling down from the tree. Carmicheal wrote about it with a sample, falling down a rod on a tranpoline. Or, weight x 4 also means that a rod is moved in parallel toward a certaindirectionwith the accelleration of 4xGraviry accelleration value in the space. Considering Garrison multiplies 4 onto every rod components, Top guide,every section ofbamboo, ferrule, snakes, line, it is assumed that the rod and rod componentsis movingin the same direction and with the same accelleration which means inparallel.So the nearest casting style is "translated rod" of Don Phillps book. Butit is made inspace, since no gravity accelleration is taken into account. In my simulation, when a rod is rotated, every part of the rod will receiverespectiveamount of accelleration (both of moving and gravity). Tip top will travelon the longest arc, grip front will nottravel so much in a defined time duration, that is, with differentaccelleration to each other. Max from rvenneri@ulster.net Sun Mar 10 06:30:16 2002 g2ACUF828579 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:30:15 - 0500 Organization: Venneri's Custom Components Subject: glue ? Hey guys,I have always used epon. I am currently glueing up my first attemptwith CR-585(urac equivalent) after I bind with glue what is a safe timeto unbind and continue to sand and finish. Also can this glue be heatset and when is it safe to do it. ThanksBob V PS Harry,Did you get the package? Was everything OK.( sorry our computers arestill not talking) from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Mar 10 06:39:33 2002 g2ACdW828823 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:39:32 - (authenticated) Sun, 10 Mar 2002 04:39:18 -0800 Subject: Re: glue ? Bob, Got the package. Will call soon.Apologies for the bandwidth,Harry Robert Venneri wrote: PS Harry,Did you get the package? Was everything OK.( sorry our computers arestill not talking) from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Mar 10 06:43:34 2002 g2AChX829045 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:43:33 -0600 (InterMail vM.5.01.04.01 201-253-122-122-101-20011014) with Subject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the finished blankdue to glue. Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to be somechange from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don ffff,0000,0000http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from mschaffer@mindspring.com Sun Mar 10 07:01:22 2002 g2AD1L829459 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:01:21 - helo=MikeShaffer) id 16k2wu-0008Q7-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:01:17 -0500 Subject: Epoxy film thickness Guys, Does anyone know what the generally accepted film thickness should be forepoxywhich will yield full strength.My brother wants me to make some escutcheons for him which will beepoxiedinto wood and I need some guidelines for film thickness. The epoxy will beeither Brownells acra glass or acraglass gel.Any help will be appreciated!TIA, Mike from channer@frontier.net Sun Mar 10 07:40:07 2002 g2ADe7800012 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:40:07 -0600 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:49:38 -0700 Subject: Re: Dimension increases Don;I wouldn't call it a study exactly, but I found that Urac withthe walnutshell catalyst was adding about .008-.010 to my rod sections, with theammonium chloride and water mix I got it down to .006 or thereabouts.With Epon for about the last 2 dozen or so, I think it is somewhere inthe neighborhood of .004, but about the same time I switched to Epon Ialso went to leaving plenty of extra at both ends so I can trim where Iwant. I also decided about the same time that the older the taper, themore needed to be added to it to allow for modern lines, so typically Ilet butts get about .006 larger than the taper calls for. As I said,this was no study, but rather an evolution of sorts. I made some rods,tried some stuff and then made some more rods.It might also be a safebet to figure that I am more accurate in my planing now than I was whenI started out,too, or at least I hope so.john Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys/Gals, more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the finished blankdue to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to besome change from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 10 07:48:36 2002 g2ADma800257 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:48:36 -0600 ([209.179.146.149] helo=computer) id 16k3gf-0007fE-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:48:34 -0800 Subject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to =dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue line does not add to the =overall dimension. I have not found the same thing. I find that Using =epon I do get an increase due to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have =not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I =am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more or less to =the specs. Glue also decreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring =rods several years old it is almost impossible to know how much the glue =line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way they =are right on mark with the numbers after glue up. But in my mind if =your glue is adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this is =going to change the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to measure =.003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane. And do =any of us know the MOE of each glue or how .001" is going to effect the =function of the rod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action for =the line weight I expected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes to =put on a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that actually what =you want? Adam Vigil Subject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, seen more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the =finished blank due to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to be =some change from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html Don, I have asked that same question on 2 = Most just plane to dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue line = that Using epon I do get an increase due to the glue. Being glue is not = have not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow for the = willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more or less to the = Glue also decreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring rods = added. Their are some that reduce the cane to= But in my mind if your glue is adding .003" and you remove the same = cane this is going to change the rod more then if you just allowed the = measure .003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not = function of the rod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing = produce the action for the line weight I expected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is = cutting off your toes to put on a shoe that is to small. It might fit = that actually what you want? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- & Sandy Andersen Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 = AMSubject: Dimension =increasesGuys/Gals,For the past number of years I = board a lot. I've never seen more that 2 posts on the amount of = created in the finished blank due to glue.Anyone ever done any = subject. I know that there has to be some change from the glue = glues more that =others.regards,Donhttp://www=.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html= from channer@frontier.net Sun Mar 10 07:50:50 2002 g2ADoo800512 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:50:50 - for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:00:25 - Subject: Re: Epoxy film thickness Mike, Make your decision based on where the escutcheons are to be mounted andwhat kind of temperatures they will be exposed to, there is a vastdifference in the viscosity of those two epoxies, the regular will giveyou a very small film thickness and be much more brittle than the gel.If you are making them for cabinet door handles, I don't think it willmatter much, but for something outside, I think you might be betterserved by a mechanical fastener, or let whatever it is you are trimminghold the escutcheons in place. If you wind up using epoxy anyway, then Iwould figure .004 for the regular and at least 3 times that for the gel,and scuff the blazes out of the mating surfaces no matter which one youuse.john michael shaffer wrote: Guys, Does anyone know what the generally accepted film thickness should be forepoxywhich will yield full strength.My brother wants me to make some escutcheons for him which will beepoxiedinto wood and I need some guidelines for film thickness. The epoxy will beeither Brownells acra glass or acraglass gel.Any help will be appreciated!TIA, Mike from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Sun Mar 10 07:53:34 2002 g2ADrX800715 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:53:33 - g2ADrPdd025791 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:53:26 - Subject: Re: Fw: A new urban name for you. Bret, myselfhave no problem with the occasional off-topic post showing up on the when an off topic post comes along, I usually take the time to read we so over stressed, that we can't take that moment to chuckle, or ponder who's quick to answer dumb questions from a new guy such as myself, likeHarry Boyd and his Christmas missives, Ray Gould who's answered some ofmy silly questions, the pride you have in your son and his band's sometimes the sadness, all come together to make this list what itis.Mark At 09:49 AM 3/9/02 -0500, you wrote:Mark,I agree with that and I always put delete in the subject line if someonemay not be interested in my son's band.Brethttp://bretsovens.bravepages.c=om/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 10 07:53:35 2002 g2ADrY800720 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:53:34 -0600 ([209.179.146.149] helo=computer) id 16k3lV-0002uM-00 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:53:33 -0800 Subject: Fw: shop accident Subject: Re: shop accident Mike, I just thought it was a new method of staining cane. Cutting your thumb did not bother me it was all the screaming "I am coming Jesus" and projectilevomiting that mad me feel uneasy. Actually Mike is okay but the guy who was watching almost had a panicattack. I think he is a little nervous about the "FROE" end of thebusiness. Mike I came home only to find out my son had kick the sprinkler valve andbroke the pipe...water everywhere. 2 hours later and 3 trips to Lowes and it was fixed. I should have stayed at your shop. Adam----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 5:27 PMSubject: shop accident All.Before Adam makes a big deal out of it, I almost (according to my friend) cut my thumb off showing him how to split bamboo. I just wanted to say it first before Adam started giving tips on how to "properly" split bamboo.Mike Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from jojo@ipa.net Sun Mar 10 07:54:55 2002 g2ADss800984 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:54:54 -0600 helo=default) id 16k3mm-0008B1-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:54:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Dimension increases Yeah, I've seen .004 - .006 dimensional increase with Epon, too. No real studydone, just empiricalobservation. M-D Don;I wouldn't call it a study exactly, but I found that Urac withthe walnutshell catalyst was adding about .008-.010 to my rod sections, with theammonium chloride and water mix I got it down to .006 or thereabouts.With Epon for about the last 2 dozen or so, I think it is somewhere inthe neighborhood of .004, but about the same time I switched to Epon Ialso went to leaving plenty of extra at both ends so I can trim where Iwant. I also decided about the same time that the older the taper, themore needed to be added to it to allow for modern lines, so typically Ilet butts get about .006 larger than the taper calls for. As I said,this was no study, but rather an evolution of sorts. I made some rods,tried some stuff and then made some more rods.It might also be a safebet to figure that I am more accurate in my planing now than I was whenI started out,too, or at least I hope so.john Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys/Gals, more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the finished blank due to glue. Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to besome change from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from harms1@pa.net Sun Mar 10 08:04:18 2002 g2AE3j801279 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:04:17 - Subject: Re: Epoxy film thickness Mike, I have no doubt that someone will be able to provide the information you arerequesting, but you will still be left with the problem of how to actuallycontrol film thickness when pressing the metal into the wood. I have used Brownell's "Acra-Glass" quite a bit over the years, and havenever had a failure of any kind. It bonds wood in high-stress areas (suchas split gunstocks), as well as it mates dissimilar materials (such asbamboo and nickel silver ferrules). I can't imagine that gluing metal escutcheons to wood would present any kindof problem whatever as long as the bonding surfaces have some "tooth" andare clear of any oils. These latter considerations, I should think, wouldbe far, far more important than worrying about optimum film thickness(whichyou probably wouldn't be able to control in your application anyway). cheers, Bill Wm Harms Custom Rod & Gun691 Losh RoadShermans Dale, PA 17090 ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Epoxy film thickness Guys, Does anyone know what the generally accepted film thickness should be forepoxywhich will yield full strength.My brother wants me to make some escutcheons for him which will beepoxiedinto wood and I need some guidelines for film thickness. The epoxy will beeither Brownells acra glass or acraglass gel.Any help will be appreciated!TIA, Mike from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 10 08:06:10 2002 g2AE66801408 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:06:06 -0600 helo=albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) id 16k3Jt-0003kp-00 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:25:01 -0800 ([209.179.146.8] helo=computer) id 16k3JU-0001C1-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:24:37 -0800 Subject: Re: shop accident Mike, I just thought it was a new method of staining cane. Cutting your thumb didnot bother me it was all the screaming "I am coming Jesus" and projectilevomiting that mad me feel uneasy. Actually Mike is okay but the guy who was watching almost had a panicattack. I think he is a little nervous about the "FROE" end of thebusiness. Mike I came home only to find out my son had kick the sprinkler valve andbroke the pipe...water everywhere. 2 hours later and 3 trips to Lowes and itwas fixed. I should have stayed at your shop. Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: shop accident All.Before Adam makes a big deal out of it, I almost (according to my friend) cut my thumb off showing him how to split bamboo. I just wanted to say it first before Adam started giving tips on how to "properly" split bamboo.Mike Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from utzerath@execpc.com Sun Mar 10 08:25:17 2002 g2AENL801970 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:23:48 -0600 Subject: Re: Dimension increases Adam, You pose an interesting question about the effect of the glue on the =action of the rod. As a WAG, I'd say that the MOE of glue (unreinforced =plastic) is negligible compared with bamboo. You would suspect that the =effect is on the order of the ratio of the width of the glue line to the =width of the strip so that a .003 glue line softens a .030 (across the =flat) tip about 8-10 per cent. As the strip widens the "glue-effects" =diminishes. An eight percent loss of MOE translates to an eight percent = Just a quick oversimplified answer. Anyone else? Subject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to =dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue line does not add to the =overall dimension. I have not found the same thing. I find that Using =epon I do get an increase due to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have =not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I =am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more or less to =the specs. Glue also decreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring =rods several years old it is almost impossible to know how much the glue =line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way =they are right on mark with the numbers after glue up. But in my mind =if your glue is adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this =is going to change the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to =measure .003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not =cane. And do any of us know the MOE of each glue or how .001" is going =to effect the function of the rod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action = Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes =to put on a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that actually =what you want? Adam Vigil Subject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, seen more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the =finished blank due to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to =be some change from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html Adam, You pose an interesting question about the effect of= ratio of the width of the glue line to the width of the strip so that a = loss of MOE translates to an eight percent increase in curvature as the = else? ----- Original Message ----- Vigil =; rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Dimension =increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 = Most just plane to dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue = find that Using epon I do get an increase due to the glue. Being glue = cane I have not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow for = glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more or = the specs. Glue also decreases over the years and shrinks. So = several years old it is almost impossible to know how much the glue = originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane = up. But in my mind if your glue is adding .003" and you remove the = of cane this is going to change the rod more then if you just allowed = to measure .003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not = effect the function of the rod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing = produce the action for the line weight I expected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is = cutting off your toes to put on a shoe that is to small. It might fit = that actually what you want? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- & Sandy Andersen Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 = AMSubject: Dimension =increasesGuys/Gals,For the past number of years I = board a lot. I've never seen more that 2 posts on the amount of = created in the finished blank due to glue.Anyone ever done any = the subject. I know that there has to be some change from the glue = Some glues more that =others.regards,Donhttp://www=.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html= from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 10 08:25:58 2002 g2AEPv802245 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:25:57 -0600 ([209.179.146.150] helo=computer) id 16k4Gm-0000Zj-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:25:53 -0800 Subject: Re: Dimension increases Jim, Very interesting. How about some input from those that have used various =glues on the same tapers? Adam Vigil Subject: Re: Dimension increases Adam, You pose an interesting question about the effect of the glue on the =action of the rod. As a WAG, I'd say that the MOE of glue (unreinforced =plastic) is negligible compared with bamboo. You would suspect that the =effect is on the order of the ratio of the width of the glue line to the =width of the strip so that a .003 glue line softens a .030 (across the =flat) tip about 8-10 per cent. As the strip widens the "glue-effects" =diminishes. An eight percent loss of MOE translates to an eight percent = Just a quick oversimplified answer. Anyone else? Subject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to =dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue line does not add to the =overall dimension. I have not found the same thing. I find that Using =epon I do get an increase due to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have =not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I =am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more or less to =the specs. Glue also decreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring =rods several years old it is almost impossible to know how much the glue =line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way =they are right on mark with the numbers after glue up. But in my mind =if your glue is adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this =is going to change the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to =measure .003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not =cane. And do any of us know the MOE of each glue or how .001" is going =to effect the function of the rod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action = Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your =toes to put on a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that =actually what you want? Adam Vigil Subject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, never seen more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the =finished blank due to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to =be some change from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html Jim, Very interesting. How about some input= that have used various glues on the same tapers? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Jim = Utzerath =; rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Dimension =increases Adam, You pose an interesting question about the effect = the ratio of the width of the glue line to the width of the strip so = eight percent loss of MOE translates to an eight percent increase in = else? ----- Original Message ----- Vigil ; =rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Dimension =increases Don, I have asked that same question on = Most just plane to dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue = Being glue is not cane I have not been willing to reduce the amount = to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going to = little more or less to the specs. Glue also decreases over the years = shrinks. So measuring rods several years old it is almost impossible = how much the glue line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane = glue up. But in my mind if your glue is adding .003" and you remove = amount of cane this is going to change the rod more then if you just = the rod to measure .003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 = not cane. And do any of us know the MOE of each glue or = going to effect the function of the rod? I do not think =so. So far using glue and not = has produce the action for the line weight I expected. Taking off cane to allow for glue = cutting off your toes to put on a shoe that is to small. It might = that actually what you want? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- = Don & Sandy =Andersen Sent: Sunday, March 10, = AMSubject: Dimension =increasesGuys/Gals,For the past number of years I = this board a lot. I've never seen more that 2 posts on the amount = expansion created in the finished blank due to glue.Anyone = any work on the subject. I know that there has to be some change = =others.regards,Donhttp://www=.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html= from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Mar 10 10:22:36 2002 g2AGMZ804001 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:22:35 - (authenticated) Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:22:32 -0800 Rodmakers List-serv Subject: Re: Dimension increases --------------D9C9A174F5121B4983620071 Adam, Not sure I agree with you here. Nor do I completelydisagree. If consistency is one of our goals, then we haveto eliminate variables. In order to build to tapers otherthan those we develop ourselves, we use the measureddimensions as our standard. Let me see if I can illustratewith an example. Suppose the tip dimension for a P101 is .065" asmeasured and reported by several sources. Suppose also thatthese numbers are from bare cane, not over the varnish. IfI'm trying to reproduce that P101, then should my finaldimension for that same point of measurement not be .065" aswell? If I cut each strip to .0325" (1/2*d) and glue, I findthat the dimension for this same point consistenly turns out.067" (I have now made 18 P101's, and these are not reallyjust suppositions) Have I made a faithful copy? Not in mymind.Therefore, on my next effort to reproduce the P101 Iallow .001" per strip for glue thickness. My numbers fallvery close to the original targeted dimensions. I have morefaithfully reproduced the P101, at least in my mind. I do not know how much of the original rod on which ourcopies are based was glue. But it had to be some number.Face it, everyone from Garrison to Gerhke uses glue to holdthe strips together. We ought to be aware of that as apotential variable, and make allowances, whether we'recopying Leonards or Losers. Building rods that aredifferent dimensions from those we copy, then judging thetapers of the originals based on our own rods, isn't fair. What is the MOE of glue? I don't know. But theoriginal rod WAS glued, just the same as mine. Has thatglue shrunk? Probably not enough that we could measure thedifferences. If the glue only adds a thousandth or two tothe overall dimensions, then it could shrink by 50% andstill change the dimensions no more than .001"I know that if the dimensions of the finished rod arenot the same as the original, it will not cast the same.Perhaps it will be better. John Channer mentioned that helikes the added thickness as a factor that helps the rodshandle modern lines, so he thinks that rods a little largerare better. Not me. I hit the original tapers, and findthat the action is very close. Just my thoughts,Harry Adam Vigil wrote: Being glue is not cane I have not been willing to reducethe amount of cane to allow for the glue. I am willing tobet that each glue going to add a little more or less tothe specs. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------D9C9A174F5121B4983620071 Adam, completely see if I can illustrate with an example. reproduce that P101, then should my final dimension for that same pointof measurement not be .065" as well? find that the dimension for this same point consistenly turns out .067"(I have now made 18 P101's, and these are not really just P101 reproduced the P101, at least in my mind. Face it, everyone from Garrison to Gerhke uses glue to hold the strips rods that are different dimensions from those we copy, then judging thetapers of the originals based on our own rods, isn't fair. If the glue only adds a thousandth or two to the overall dimensions, thenit could shrink by 50% and still change the dimensions no more than .001" thickness as a factor that helps the rods handle modern lines, so he thinks tapers, and find that the action is very close. Adam Vigil wrote:Being glue is notcane I have not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow forthe glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little moreor less to the specs.--Harry Boyd --------------D9C9A174F5121B4983620071-- from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 10 11:05:49 2002 g2AH5n804778 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:05:49 - ([209.179.147.97] helo=computer) id 16k6lV-0006f0-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:05:45 -0800 "Rodmakers List-serv" Subject: Re: Dimension increases Harry, Are you saying then you remove powerfibers especially in the tips and =replacing it with glue? Some of the tapers we receive are from the =actual setup and others are taken from original rods. And we actually do =not know where some tapers originated from or by whom. Obviously the =tapers from the setup on the mills or forms will give the actual numbers =needed. Now if you glue up and find it is .006" over then what you =planed it to would you on your next rod remove .006" of cane so your =numbers are right when compared to a rod? Even though the actual =numbers where achieved during planing? Do the makers using URAC subtract=.008" and those using EPON .004"? Just how much cane do we remove to = I know using EPON that the rods cast the line weight and have the =characteristics they are expect to posses. If I were to remove .004" to =allow for glue I am fairly sure it will be closer to the action one line = So to solve the riddle we need some input from those that have used =different glues for the same rods using the same dimensions. Everything = It just goes against my grain to remove cane for glue. And as for =copying the classics accurately. I think that is something even the =masters sought...yet they seldom achieved it. Look at graphite rods they =are knocked off on mandrels and should be as close to clones as you can =get. Yet they still vary greatly within each model. Adam Vigil Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 8:22 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Not sure I agree with you here. Nor do I completely disagree. If =consistency is one of our goals, then we have to eliminate variables. =In order to build to tapers other than those we develop ourselves, we =use the measured dimensions as our standard. Let me see if I can = Suppose the tip dimension for a P101 is .065" as measured and =reported by several sources. Suppose also that these numbers are from =bare cane, not over the varnish. If I'm trying to reproduce that P101, =then should my final dimension for that same point of measurement not be = If I cut each strip to .0325" (1/2*d) and glue, I find that the =dimension for this same point consistenly turns out .067" (I have now =made 18 P101's, and these are not really just suppositions) Have I made = Therefore, on my next effort to reproduce the P101 I allow .001" =per strip for glue thickness. My numbers fall very close to the =original targeted dimensions. I have more faithfully reproduced the = I do not know how much of the original rod on which our copies are =based was glue. But it had to be some number. Face it, everyone from =Garrison to Gerhke uses glue to hold the strips together. We ought to =be aware of that as a potential variable, and make allowances, whether =we're copying Leonards or Losers. Building rods that are different =dimensions from those we copy, then judging the tapers of the originals = What is the MOE of glue? I don't know. But the original rod WAS =glued, just the same as mine. Has that glue shrunk? Probably not =enough that we could measure the differences. If the glue only adds a =thousandth or two to the overall dimensions, then it could shrink by 50% = I know that if the dimensions of the finished rod are not the same =as the original, it will not cast the same. Perhaps it will be better. =John Channer mentioned that he likes the added thickness as a factor =that helps the rods handle modern lines, so he thinks that rods a little =larger are better. Not me. I hit the original tapers, and find that = Being glue is not cane I have not been willing to reduce the amount =of cane to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going =to add a little more or less to the specs. Harry, Are you saying then you remove = receive are from the actual setup and others are taken from original = the actual numbers needed. Now if you glue up and find it is .006" over = what you planed it to would you on your next rod remove .006" of =cane so your numbers are right when = a rod? Even though the actual numbers where achieved during = makers using URAC subtract .008" and those using EPON .004"? Just how = I know using EPON that the rods cast = weight and have the characteristics they are expect to posses. If I were = remove .004" to allow for glue I am fairly sure it will be closer to the = one line weight lower. from those that have used different glues for the same rods using the = dimensions. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. It just goes against my grain to remove= glue. And as for copying the classics accurately. I think that is = the masters sought...yet they seldom achieved it. Look at graphite rods = knocked off on mandrels and should be as close to clones as you can get. = they still vary greatly within each model. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Harry= Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Dimension =increases develop ourselves, we use the measured dimensions as our = reproduce that P101, then should my final dimension for that same = that the dimension for this same point consistenly turns out .067" (I = made 18 P101's, and these are not really just = Therefore, on my next effort to reproduce the P101 I allow .001" per = Face it, everyone from Garrison to Gerhke uses glue to hold the strips = are different dimensions from those we copy, then judging the tapers = the glue only adds a thousandth or two to the overall dimensions, then = could shrink by 50% and still change the dimensions no more than .001" = factor that helps the rods handle modern lines, so he thinks that rods = Being = cane I have not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow = glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more = from rmoon@ida.net Sun Mar 10 11:12:39 2002 g2AHCc805071 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:12:38 - Rodmakers List-serv Subject: Re: Dimension increases --------------7B60D9791060DCB433DE6B8D Harry, I just wonder about something. I am well aware that variancesof .002 or greater are sufficient to change the character of a rod. ButI had always considered the statement referred to a variance at a givenlocation. Sill it would seem to me that if the variance was uniform andthe glue was uniform, then even if the specs varied from the original,action should stay the same. I do see a flaw in my reasoning. The %difference would be greater at the smaller dimensions, and mighttherefor change the action. I'm not disagreeing with you just trying tosort it out in my own mind.Ralph Harry Boyd wrote: Adam, Not sure I agree with you here. Nor do I completely disagree. Ifconsistency is one of our goals, then we have to eliminate variables.In order to build to tapers other than those we develop ourselves, weuse the measured dimensions as our standard. Let me see if I canillustrate with an example. Suppose the tip dimension for a P101 is .065" as measured andreported by several sources. Suppose also that these numbers are frombare cane, not over the varnish. If I'm trying to reproduce thatP101, then should my final dimension for that same point ofmeasurement not be .065" as well? If I cut each strip to .0325" (1/2*d) and glue, I find that thedimension for this same point consistenly turns out .067" (I have nowmade 18 P101's, and these are not really just suppositions) Have Imade a faithful copy? Not in my mind.Therefore, on my next effort to reproduce the P101 I allow .001"per strip for glue thickness. My numbers fall very close to theoriginal targeted dimensions. I have more faithfully reproduced theP101, at least in my mind. I do not know how much of the original rod on which our copies arebased was glue. But it had to be some number. Face it, everyone fromGarrison to Gerhke uses glue to hold the strips together. We ought tobe aware of that as a potential variable, and make allowances, whetherwe're copying Leonards or Losers. Building rods that are differentdimensions from those we copy, then judging the tapers of theoriginals based on our own rods, isn't fair. What is the MOE of glue? I don't know. But the original rod WASglued, just the same as mine. Has that glue shrunk? Probably notenough that we could measure the differences. If the glue only adds athousandth or two to the overall dimensions, then it could shrink by50% and still change the dimensions no more than .001"I know that if the dimensions of the finished rod are not the sameas the original, it will not cast the same. Perhaps it will bebetter. John Channer mentioned that he likes the added thickness as afactor that helps the rods handle modern lines, so he thinks that rodsa little larger are better. Not me. I hit the original tapers, andfind that the action is very close. Just my thoughts,Harry Adam Vigil wrote: Being glue is not cane I have not been willing to reduce the amountof cane to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet that each gluegoing to add a little more or less to the specs. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------7B60D9791060DCB433DE6B8D variances of .002 or greater are sufficient to change the character ofa rod. But I had always considered the statement referred to a variance was uniform and the glue was uniform, then even if the specs varied from dimensions, just trying to sort it out in my own mind.RalphHarry Boyd wrote:Adam, completely see if I can illustrate with an example. reproduce that P101, then should my final dimension for that same pointof measurement not be .065" as well? find that the dimension for this same point consistenly turns out .067"(I have now made 18 P101's, and these are not really just P101 reproduced the P101, at least in my mind. Face it, everyone from Garrison to Gerhke uses glue to hold the strips rods that are different dimensions from those we copy, then judging thetapers of the originals based on our own rods, isn't fair. If the glue only adds a thousandth or two to the overall dimensions, thenit could shrink by 50% and still change the dimensions no more than .001" thickness as a factor that helps the rods handle modern lines, so he thinks tapers, and find that the action is very close. Adam Vigil wrote:Being glue is notcane I have not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow forthe glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little moreor less to the specs.--Harry Boyd Bamboo Rods Our Church --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------7B60D9791060DCB433DE6B8D-- from goodaple@cox-internet.com Sun Mar 10 11:21:20 2002 g2AHLJ805367 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:21:19 -0600 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license180e1de7f543f89455b24e508f9cca39) Subject: Sowbug Roundup and Lotsa burl Who's going to the roundup this year? Also, anyone that might be =interested in some Cherry burl, Oak burl,Blackjack, and Unknown (GREAT) =burl. I have about 500 lbs available before it goes to Ebay. Please =email about burl offlist. Randall R. Gregory NW AR. =(Onis C. Are =you going to roundup? ) (Onis C. Are you going to roundup? ) from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 10 11:24:36 2002 g2AHOZ805578 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:24:35 - ([209.179.147.97] helo=computer) id 16k73e-0000je-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:24:31 -0800 Subject: Re: Dimension increases Ralph, Good point. I guess we need to determine how much glue changes the =action of the rod. Does a few thousandths of glue have a greater effect =on the rod or does a few thousandths of cane? Hmmm....lets see what =comes of this. I surely do not know I only have my thoughts about it.If we get our #" from a set up or a rod it may be important, then again =maybe not. Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 9:12 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Harry, I just wonder about something. I am well aware that variances =of .002 or greater are sufficient to change the character of a rod. But =I had always considered the statement referred to a variance at a given =location. Sill it would seem to me that if the variance was uniform and =the glue was uniform, then even if the specs varied from the original, =action should stay the same. I do see a flaw in my reasoning. The % =difference would be greater at the smaller dimensions, and might =therefor change the action. I'm not disagreeing with you just trying to = Not sure I agree with you here. Nor do I completely disagree. =If consistency is one of our goals, then we have to eliminate variables. =In order to build to tapers other than those we develop ourselves, we =use the measured dimensions as our standard. Let me see if I can = Suppose the tip dimension for a P101 is .065" as measured and =reported by several sources. Suppose also that these numbers are from =bare cane, not over the varnish. If I'm trying to reproduce that P101, =then should my final dimension for that same point of measurement not be = If I cut each strip to .0325" (1/2*d) and glue, I find that the =dimension for this same point consistenly turns out .067" (I have now =made 18 P101's, and these are not really just suppositions) Have I made = Therefore, on my next effort to reproduce the P101 I allow .001" =per strip for glue thickness. My numbers fall very close to the =original targeted dimensions. I have more faithfully reproduced the = I do not know how much of the original rod on which our copies =are based was glue. But it had to be some number. Face it, everyone = from Garrison to Gerhke uses glue to hold the strips together. We ought =to be aware of that as a potential variable, and make allowances, =whether we're copying Leonards or Losers. Building rods that are =different dimensions from those we copy, then judging the tapers of the = What is the MOE of glue? I don't know. But the original rod =WAS glued, just the same as mine. Has that glue shrunk? Probably not =enough that we could measure the differences. If the glue only adds a =thousandth or two to the overall dimensions, then it could shrink by 50% = I know that if the dimensions of the finished rod are not the =same as the original, it will not cast the same. Perhaps it will be =better. John Channer mentioned that he likes the added thickness as a =factor that helps the rods handle modern lines, so he thinks that rods a =little larger are better. Not me. I hit the original tapers, and find = Being glue is not cane I have not been willing to reduce the =amount of cane to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet that each glue =going to add a little more or less to the specs. Ralph, Good point. I guess we need to = rod or does a few thousandths of cane? Hmmm....lets see what comes of = surely do not know I only have my thoughts about it.If we get our #" from a set up or a rod it may be important, then = maybe not. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Ralph W. =Moon Cc: Adam Vigil ; Rodmakers List-serv = Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Dimension =increases aware that variances of .002 or greater are sufficient to change the = of a rod. But I had always considered the statement referred to a = uniform and the glue was uniform, then even if the specs varied from = we develop ourselves, we use the measured dimensions as our = reproduce that P101, then should my final dimension for that same = that the dimension for this same point consistenly turns out .067" = now made 18 P101's, and these are not really just = Therefore, on my next effort to reproduce the P101 I allow .001" per = copy, then judging the tapers of the originals based on our own = the glue only adds a thousandth or two to the overall dimensions, = could shrink by 50% and still change the dimensions no more than = thickness as a factor that helps the rods handle modern lines, so he = Harry = Being = cane I have not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow = glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little = less to the specs.-- Harry from jsschaeffer@hotmail.com Sun Mar 10 11:27:38 2002 g2AHRb805811 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:27:38 -0600 Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:27:24 -0800 Subject: Re: Dimension increases FILETIME=[D7E6D0F0:01C1C858] I think that there are several points of view on this. If my memory =serves me, Garrison believed that taper designs were strongly influenced = whatever glue they used. I disagree. I think that glue probably does make a slight difference, =but in terms of dimensions and action it is not worth considering. The =effect of cane thickness at a particular point is far more important. =The percent change is small, except at the tip, where it is still not =that great. However, this view is based on my very limited experience. My first rod =was a Dickerson 7613. I added 3 thousandths of an inch to each section =because I was nervous about my planing, and thought that the nyatex I =was using was extremely thin. This taper is either a 5 or 6 weight =depending on your taste, and I thought that adding 6 thousandths of an =inch would have a minimal effect. I ended up with a rod that handles a 7 =weight line very well, and it had an action that was entirely different = from the original taper (which I was able to cast at Grayrock). =Fortunately I live near a smallmouth river in SE Michigan, so it turned =out to be one of those "happy accidents". After that experience I try to = Jeff schaeffer I think that there are several points = this. If my memory serves me, Garrison believed that taper designs were = influenced by glue type, and that each rodmaker had to adjust tapers to = I disagree. I think that glue probably = slight difference, but in terms of dimensions and action it is not worth = considering. The effect of cane thickness at a particular point is far = important. The percent change is small, except at the tip, where it is = that great. However, this view is based on my very= experience. My first rod was a Dickerson 7613. I added 3 thousandths of = to each section because I was nervous about my planing, and thought that = nyatex I was using was extremely thin. This taper is either a 5 or 6 = depending on your taste, and I thought that adding 6 thousandths of an = would have a minimal effect. I ended up with a rod that handles a 7 = very well, and it had an action that was entirely different from the = smallmouth river in SE Michigan, so it turned out to be one of those = accidents". After that experience I try to come as close to the = as possible. Jeff =schaeffer from cattanac@wmis.net Sun Mar 10 11:50:14 2002 g2AHoD806383 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:50:13 -0600 Subject: Re: shop accident Your story reminds me of the time at the early PA gathering - a guy hadbrought a piece of cane - not tonkin - in attempting to split it it'shattered' and I ended up driving the sharp edge of the froe deep into myleft hand - it wasn't the cut but having done it in front of so many thatwas the embarrassing part - You know - those snickerings and the nan'nernan'ner nan'ners that cripple the icon image : ) from this I rethough how the froe was being used - and the discovery hasbeen shared - but for those not listening earlierThe sharpe edge of the froe is only needed to initiate the split - oncethis is achieved the back side - blunt edge is all that is needed to advancethe split - this is best done with a twisting action - if when splitting youfind that you are trying to force your hands together to advance the split-you are doing it wrong and will lose control of the split width - the twistof the wrist is all that is needed - and then the froe is advanced down thesplit in a non tension movement -An interesting sidenote to all this - yesterday was day one of theMichigan Flyfishing Expo - Southfield - Some great conversations with somegreat friends - although it seems that - grey - is becoming a morepredominate color - as a group of us were podded about at one point I sortof stepped outside myself and did one of those mathematica mind flashes -100 + years of solid rodmaking experience and perhaps 700 - 1000 rodsunderthe belt - I have occassionally wondered - if one were to survey the membersof the list - what would the talleies be . . . . . . . . . from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Sun Mar 10 12:50:30 2002 g2AIoU807563 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:50:30 -0600 Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:50:17 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Dimension increases Thread-Topic: Dimension increasesThread-Index: AcHIOmRE8nKd0TQVEda4LQBglOouXwAKYv9g FILETIME=[6C031270:01C1C864] But Adam, if you are using a taper that was measured from a glued-up rod =(or derived from one - as virtually all tapers are) then that dimension =includes whatever glue was in the original rod. Not that I think .001 or =even .003 makes a really big difference, but some glues seem to add much =more than that. I've used Titebond II and found it adds very little - maybe 0.002 on the =average - though I haven't studied it systematically. It may be that it =adds more, but perhaps some of that gets removed accidentally in the =process of scraping off the glue. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to =dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue line does not add to the =overall dimension. I have not found the same thing. I find that Using =epon I do get an increase due to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have =not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I =am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more or less to =the specs. Glue also decreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring =rods several years old it is almost impossible to know how much the glue =line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way they =are right on mark with the numbers after glue up. But in my mind if =your glue is adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this is =going to change the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to measure =.003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane. And do =any of us know the MOE of each glue or how .001" is going to effect the =function of the rod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action for =the line weight I expected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes to =put on a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that actually what =you want? Adam Vigil Subject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the finished =blank due to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to be =some change from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html = 0DocumentEmail Bu=t Adam,if you are using a taper that was measured from a glued-up rod (or =derived fromone – as virtually all tapers are) then that dimension includes =whatever gluewas in the original rod. Not that I think .001 or even .003 makes a =really bigdifference, but some glues seem to add much more than =that. I&=#8217;ve usedTitebond II and found it adds very little – maybe 0.002 on the =average – thoughI haven’t studied it systematically. It may be that it adds more, =but perhaps someof that gets removed accidentally in the process of scraping off the =glue. Ba=rry -----OriginalMessage-----From: Adam Vigil Sent: Sunday, March 10,=2002 7:49AM dmanders@telusplanet.net; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Dimension =increases Don, I haveasked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to dimension =and glue.Some even say that the glue line does not add to the overall dimension. =I have increasedue to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have not been willing to =reduce theamount of cane to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet that each glue =goingto add a little more or less to the specs. Glue also decreases over the =yearsand shrinks. So measuring rods several years old it is almost impossible =toknow how much the glue line originally added. Theirare some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way they are =right glue isadding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this is going =tochange the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to measure =.003" overthe original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane. And do any of us =know function ofthe rod? I do not think so. So farusing glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action for the =lineweight I expected. Takingoff cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes to put on =a shoethat is to small. It might fit but is that actually what you =want? AdamVigil -----Original Message ----- From: Don& Sandy Andersen = Sent: Sunday, March =10, 20024:41 AM Subject:Dimension increases Guys/Gals, morethat 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the finished blank =due toglue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to be =somechange from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from Troutgetter@aol.com Sun Mar 10 12:51:14 2002 g2AIpE807683 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:51:14 -0600 Subject: Re: shop accident Martin,I applaud your use of correct English! Don't look for it from me! A thumbless Trougetter indeed! This was supposed to be a simple explanation of how to steer a split! Like most things having to do with flyfishing, it was necessary to show how dangerous the sport can be! Like in the movie, where the Brad get washed downstream in the rapids in order to land his fish, I was simply showing a technique where in the process of splitting the bamboo for your new rod the staining was done at the same time. Like the movie, landing a trout doesn't ALWAYS involve jumping into the rapids, splitting doesn't ALWAYS involve staining the bamboo at the same time! BUT, if you shouldhave to stain, you should know how to do it!Talk to you tonight in Todd's roomMike Mike's Bamboo Rod ShopMontclair, CAhttp://www.mshaybamboo.gq.nu/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 10 13:06:44 2002 g2AJ6h808277 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:06:43 -0600 ([209.179.146.1] helo=computer) id 16k8eM-0005q7-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:06:32 -0800 Subject: Re: Dimension increases Barry, I hear you. I think the problem is we just do not know how much a glue =line exist in the rods we have tapers for. So how do we allow for it? =Since we do not know the dimension added by the glue any amount of cane =removed is a guess. Bob Milward was very clear in his text when he said =it is better to slightly overbuild then to under build. Adam Vigil Subject: RE: Dimension increases But Adam, if you are using a taper that was measured from a glued-up =rod (or derived from one - as virtually all tapers are) then that =dimension includes whatever glue was in the original rod. Not that I =think .001 or even .003 makes a really big difference, but some glues =seem to add much more than that. I've used Titebond II and found it adds very little - maybe 0.002 on =the average - though I haven't studied it systematically. It may be that =it adds more, but perhaps some of that gets removed accidentally in the =process of scraping off the glue. Barry -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:49 AM Subject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to =dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue line does not add to the =overall dimension. I have not found the same thing. I find that Using =epon I do get an increase due to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have =not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I =am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more or less to =the specs. Glue also decreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring =rods several years old it is almost impossible to know how much the glue =line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way =they are right on mark with the numbers after glue up. But in my mind =if your glue is adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this =is going to change the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to =measure .003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not =cane. And do any of us know the MOE of each glue or how .001" is going =to effect the function of the rod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action = Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes =to put on a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that actually =what you want? Adam Vigil Subject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, seen more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the =finished blank due to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to be =some change from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html 0DocumentEmail @font-face { font-family: Tahoma;}@page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; =mso-header-margin: .5in; mso-footer- margin: .5in; mso-paper-source: 0; }P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style-parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-style- parent: ""; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; =mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text- underline: single}SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single}A:visited { COLOR: blue; TEXT- DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single}SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single}P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font- family: "Times New Roman"}LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times NewRoman"; =mso- pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"}SPAN.EmailStyle17 { COLOR: navy; mso-style-type: personal-reply; mso-ansi-font-size: =10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font- family: Arial; =mso-bidi-font-family: Arial}DIV.Section1 { page: Section1} Barry, I hear you. I think the problem is we = know how much a glue line exist in the rods we have tapers for. So how = allow for it? Since we do not know the dimension added by the glue any = cane removed is a guess. Bob Milward was very clear in his text when he = is better to slightly overbuild then to under build. Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Kling, Barry W. = Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 = AMSubject: RE: Dimension =increases Adam, if you are using a taper that was measured from a glued-up rod = derived from one – as virtually all tapers are) then that = whatever glue was in the original rod. Not that I think .001 or even = makes a really big difference, but some glues seem to add much more = that. used Titebond II and found it adds very little – maybe 0.002 on = though I haven’t studied it systematically. It may be that it = perhaps some of that gets removed accidentally in the process of = the glue. Barry Message-----From: = = increases Don, asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to dimension = glue. Some even say that the glue line does not add to the overall = increase due to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have not been = reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet = glue going to add a little more or less to the specs. Glue also = the years and shrinks. So measuring rods several years old it is = impossible to know how much the glue line originally =added. are some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way they are = adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this is going to = the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to measure .003" over = original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane. And do any of us = I do not think so. using glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action for the = weight I expected. off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes to put = want? Vigil ----- = Message ----- & Sandy Andersen Sent: Sunday, = 2002 4:41 AMSubject: Dimension = increases Guys/Gals,For the past= years I watched this board a lot. I've never seen more that 2 posts on = amount of expansion created in the finished blank due to = done any work on the subject. I know that there has to be some change = others.regards,Donhttp://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from Dennishigham@cs.com Sun Mar 10 13:40:14 2002 g2AJeD809147 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:40:13 - for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 14:40:04 - Subject: Re: Long rods Since a few of you have asked for this I thought I'd just post it to the list. Here's the early 1900's 10', 5wt ,3 piece Leonard....I subtracted .004 for varnish. 0 = .070, 5 = .078, 10 = .093, 15 = .110, 20 = .120, 25 = .137, 30 = .148,35 = .157, 40 = .172, 45 = .185, 50 = .200, 55 = .208, 60 = .222, 65 = .231,70 = .248, 75 = .257, 80 = .264, 85= = .279, 90 = .290, 95 = .304, 100 = .316, 105 = .339, 110 = .425..same/grip ferrules 11/64th & 17/64. If you run this thru Stetzer's hexrod and look at the stress curve you'll see a typical wetfly curve.....very flat. Dennis from dnhayashida@yahoo.com Sun Mar 10 13:50:52 2002 g2AJoo809495 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:50:50 -0600 10 Mar 2002 11:50:49 PST Subject: Re: Dimension increases Having used Titebond II, Titebond II extend, epoxy,and polyurethane glue on the same taper, I would saythe epoxy and polyurethane does add a bit of stiffnesscompared to the titebond. Not much, and not nearlyenough to go up a whole line weight. But that probablywould depend on your glue lines. I typically have noglue lines visible.Darryl Hayashida --- Adam Vigil wrote: Jim, Very interesting. How about some input from thosethat have used various glues on the same tapers? Adam Vigil----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Utzerath rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 6:20 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Adam, You pose an interesting question about the effectof the glue on the action of the rod. As a WAG, I'dsay that the MOE of glue (unreinforced plastic) isnegligible compared with bamboo. You would suspectthat the effect is on the order of the ratio of thewidth of the glue line to the width of the strip sothat a .003 glue line softens a .030 (across theflat) tip about 8-10 per cent. As the strip widensthe "glue-effects" diminishes. An eight percentloss of MOE translates to an eight percent increasein curvature as the rod is cast, but only at thetip. Just a quick oversimplified answer. Anyone else? Jim U ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Vigil rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:48 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions.Most just plane to dimension and glue. Some even saythat the glue line does not add to the overalldimension. I have not found the same thing. I findthat Using epon I do get an increase due to theglue. Being glue is not cane I have not been willingto reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue.I am willing to bet that each glue going to add alittle more or less to the specs. Glue alsodecreases over the years and shrinks. So measuringrods several years old it is almost impossible toknow how much the glue line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow forthe glue. This way they are right on mark with thenumbers after glue up. But in my mind if your glueis adding .003" and you remove the same amount ofcane this is going to change the rod more then ifyou just allowed the rod to measure .003" over theoriginal #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane.And do any of us know the MOE of each glue or how.001" is going to effect the function of the rod? Ido not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the canehas produce the action for the line weight Iexpected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar tocutting off your toes to put on a shoe that is tosmall. It might fit but is that actually what youwant? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- From: Don & Sandy Andersen Subject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, board a lot. I've never seen more that 2 posts onthe amount of expansion created in the finishedblank due to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. Iknow that there has to be some change from the glueaddition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 10 14:27:57 2002 g2AKRu810397 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 14:27:57 -0600 ([209.179.148.40] helo=computer) id 16k9v8-000427-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:27:54 -0800 Subject: Re: Dimension increases Darryl, So using those different glues on the same tapers you did not feel youneeded to decrease you #'s to account for the glue thickness? Did thethickness of the glue vary much between types? Adam----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Dimension increases Having used Titebond II, Titebond II extend, epoxy,and polyurethane glue on the same taper, I would saythe epoxy and polyurethane does add a bit of stiffnesscompared to the titebond. Not much, and not nearlyenough to go up a whole line weight. But that probablywould depend on your glue lines. I typically have noglue lines visible.Darryl Hayashida --- Adam Vigil wrote: Jim, Very interesting. How about some input from thosethat have used various glues on the same tapers? Adam Vigil----- Original Message -----From: Jim Utzerath rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 6:20 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Adam, You pose an interesting question about the effectof the glue on the action of the rod. As a WAG, I'dsay that the MOE of glue (unreinforced plastic) isnegligible compared with bamboo. You would suspectthat the effect is on the order of the ratio of thewidth of the glue line to the width of the strip sothat a .003 glue line softens a .030 (across theflat) tip about 8-10 per cent. As the strip widensthe "glue-effects" diminishes. An eight percentloss of MOE translates to an eight percent increasein curvature as the rod is cast, but only at thetip. Just a quick oversimplified answer. Anyone else? Jim U----- Original Message -----From: Adam Vigil rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:48 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions.Most just plane to dimension and glue. Some even saythat the glue line does not add to the overalldimension. I have not found the same thing. I findthat Using epon I do get an increase due to theglue. Being glue is not cane I have not been willingto reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue.I am willing to bet that each glue going to add alittle more or less to the specs. Glue alsodecreases over the years and shrinks. So measuringrods several years old it is almost impossible toknow how much the glue line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow forthe glue. This way they are right on mark with thenumbers after glue up. But in my mind if your glueis adding .003" and you remove the same amount ofcane this is going to change the rod more then ifyou just allowed the rod to measure .003" over theoriginal #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane.And do any of us know the MOE of each glue or how.001" is going to effect the function of the rod? Ido not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the canehas produce the action for the line weight Iexpected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar tocutting off your toes to put on a shoe that is tosmall. It might fit but is that actually what youwant? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:41 AMSubject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, board a lot. I've never seen more that 2 posts onthe amount of expansion created in the finishedblank due to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. Iknow that there has to be some change from the glueaddition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sun Mar 10 14:59:16 2002 g2AKxG811191 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 14:59:16 - g2AKxDm19695; Subject: Re: Old reels and grinding the feet On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 BambooRods@aol.com wrote: I have recently acquired some old pflueger reels (1492, Progress 60 & 80). They were valentines presents from Cindy. Anyway, they are really niceand I hate to grind the feet down so they will fit on the reel seats. Whatthoughts do you all have. I just feel that it would be disrespecting of the reels to grind. Forget the 60 & 80. On the 1492, pick up a cheap Southbend or a trashed Pflueger on eBay and grind that foot if necessary. Regards, BobFly Suppliesaflyshop.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Mar 10 15:02:05 2002 g2AL24811441 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:02:04 - (authenticated) Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:01:58 -0800 Rodmakers List-serv Subject: Re: Dimension increases --------------FBD1676CE98098DBABC6214B Ralph, You've got it straight I think... I'd rather have a rodthat was consistently larger (or smaller) than one that wasall over the place. Still, if we're shooting to make acopy, then why not be consistently correct rather thanconsistently oversized? Action would largely stay the same, but performancewould vary. A four weight rod that is dead on when measuredmight be a 4.3 weight rod if it were consistentlyoversized. Does that sound right? Harry "Ralph W. Moon" wrote: Harry, I just wonder about something. I am well awarethat variances of .002 or greater are sufficient to changethe character of a rod. But I had always considered thestatement referred to a variance at a given location.Sill it would seem to me that if the variance was uniformand the glue was uniform, then even if the specs varied from the original, action should stay the same. I do seea flaw in my reasoning. The % difference would be greaterat the smaller dimensions, and might therefor change theaction. I'm not disagreeing with you just trying to sortit out in my own mind.Ralph Harry Boyd wrote: Adam, Not sure I agree with you here. Nor do I completelydisagree. If consistency is one of our goals, then wehave to eliminate variables. In order to build totapers other than those we develop ourselves, we use themeasured dimensions as our standard. Let me see if Ican illustrate with an example. Suppose the tip dimension for a P101 is .065" asmeasured and reported by several sources. Suppose alsothat these numbers are from bare cane, not over thevarnish. If I'm trying to reproduce that P101, then should my final dimension for that same point ofmeasurement not be .065" as well? If I cut each strip to .0325" (1/2*d) and glue, Ifind that the dimension for this same point consistenlyturns out .067" (I have now made 18 P101's, and theseare not really just suppositions) Have I made afaithful copy? Not in my mind.Therefore, on my next effort to reproduce the P101 Iallow .001" per strip for glue thickness. My numbersfall very close to the original targeted dimensions. Ihave more faithfully reproduced the P101, at least in mymind. I do not know how much of the original rod on whichour copies are based was glue. But it had to be somenumber. Face it, everyone from Garrison to Gerhke usesglue to hold the strips together. We ought to be awareof that as a potential variable, and make allowances,whether we're copying Leonards or Losers. Building rodsthat are different dimensions from those we copy, thenjudging the tapers of the originals based on our ownrods, isn't fair. What is the MOE of glue? I don't know. But theoriginal rod WAS glued, just the same as mine. Has thatglue shrunk? Probably not enough that we could measurethe differences. If the glue only adds a thousandth ortwo to the overall dimensions, then it could shrink by50% and still change the dimensions no more than .001"I know that if the dimensions of the finished rodare not the same as the original, it will not cast thesame. Perhaps it will be better. John Channermentioned that he likes the added thickness as a factorthat helps the rods handle modern lines, so he thinksthat rods a little larger are better. Not me. I hitthe original tapers, and find that the action is veryclose. Just my thoughts,Harry Adam Vigil wrote: Being glue is not cane I have not been willing toreduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I amwilling to bet that each glue going to add a littlemore or less to the specs. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------FBD1676CE98098DBABC6214B Ralph, a rod that was consistently larger (or smaller) than one that was all over be consistently correct rather than consistently oversized? performance sound right? "Ralph W. Moon" wrote: I am well aware that variances of .002 or greater are sufficient to changethe character of a rod. But I had always considered the statement referred if the variance was uniform and the glue was uniform, then even if the not disagreeing with you just trying to sort it out in my own mind.RalphHarry Boyd wrote:Adam, completely see if I can illustrate with an example. reproduce that P101, then should my final dimension for that same pointof measurement not be .065" as well? find that the dimension for this same point consistenly turns out .067"(I have now made 18 P101's, and these are not really just P101 reproduced the P101, at least in my mind. Face it, everyone from Garrison to Gerhke uses glue to hold the strips rods that are different dimensions from those we copy, then judging thetapers of the originals based on our own rods, isn't fair. If the glue only adds a thousandth or two to the overall dimensions, thenit could shrink by 50% and still change the dimensions no more than .001" thickness as a factor that helps the rods handle modern lines, so he thinks tapers, and find that the action is very close. Adam Vigil wrote:Being glue is notcane I have not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow forthe glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little moreor less to the specs.--Harry Boyd Bamboo Rods Our Church --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --Harry Boyd --------------FBD1676CE98098DBABC6214B-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Mar 10 15:03:49 2002 g2AL3m811640 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:03:48 - (authenticated) Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:03:46 -0800 Rodmakers List-serv Subject: Re: Dimension increases --------------CF3C7FA0D289392DF51629E0 Adam, I don't have Milward in front of me, but didn't he saythat in order to allow one to sand or scrape the rod to thedesired dimensions? Harry Adam Vigil wrote: Bob Milward was very clear in his text when he said it isbetter to slightly overbuild then to under build. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------CF3C7FA0D289392DF51629E0 Adam, say that in order to allow one to sand or scrape the rod to the desireddimensions? Adam Vigil wrote:Bob Milward wasvery clear in his text when he said it is better to slightly overbuildthen to under build. --Harry Boyd --------------CF3C7FA0D289392DF51629E0-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Sun Mar 10 15:06:37 2002 g2AL6a812061 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:06:36 - (authenticated) Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:06:34 -0800 Rodmakers List-serv Subject: Re: Dimension increases --------------24BC043BF30EE34FD44B0861 Adam, No, that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that if youbuild a copy of a rod from a mic'd taper, and it comes outconsistently .002" oversized, then you haven't done a verygood job of copying the rod. If glue caused the consistentoversized measurements, then you simply must makeallowances. Tapers from mills aren't often repeatable with forms.Mills, at least those which use carriers as patterns, haveadjustments at every point, not just every five inches. Thebest we can do is an approximation. I'm simply saying whatBarry did "But Adam, if you are using a taper that wasmeasured from a glued-up rod (or derived from one _ asvirtually all tapers are) then that dimension includeswhatever glue was in the original rod." Let me be clear... I'd never scrape power fibers fromthe outside of a rod just because I built it oversized. ButI might decrease the dimensions of each strip the next timeI built a similar rod. If you're using Epon and the rod iscoming out .004" oversized, then either your forms are notset correctly, or you haven't taken off all the bamboo youshould have. I'll try again... the dimensions of the finished rod arewhat matters. The size of the 1/6 (or 1/4 for quads or 1/5 When we start by measuring a finished rod and try to copythat, we can only know if we have been successful bymeasuring finished rods. To do otherwise is to compareapples to oranges. Almost every rod I build is based on an original rodwhich I have cast myself, and fallen in love with. Forexample, I don't build para's because I don't like 'em. Howclose can I come to the rods I am copying? I'm not going tobe perfect, but I won't be consistently .006" - .010"oversized either. Harry Adam Vigil wrote: Are you saying then you remove powerfibers especially inthe tips and replacing it with glue? --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------24BC043BF30EE34FD44B0861 Adam, that if you build a copy of a rod from a mic'd taper, and it comes outconsistently .002" oversized, then you haven't done a very good job of measurements,then you simply must make allowances. Mills, at least those which use carriers as patterns, have adjustments you are using a taper that was measured from a glued-up rod (or derived from one _ as virtually all tapers are) then that dimension includes whateverglue was in the original rod." I might decrease the dimensions of each strip the next time I built a similar then either your forms are not set correctly, or you haven't taken offall the bamboo you should have. we start by measuring a finished rod and try to copy that, we can only otherwise is to compare apples to oranges. be consistently .006" - .010" oversized either. Adam Vigil wrote:Are you sayingthenyou remove powerfibers especially in the tips and replacing it withglue?--Harry Boyd --------------24BC043BF30EE34FD44B0861-- from petermckean@netspace.net.au Sun Mar 10 16:27:41 2002 g2AMRe813648 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:27:40 - g2AMRZ115970 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:27:36 Subject: Payne 98 My favourite rod, I guess, is the Payne 101; I fish it a lot in all kinds ofsituations, and find it is a delight to use. I have been thinking about a Payne 98 as an alternative, shorter rod, andalso to compare it with the SirD, which I think is also a great rod. Anybody have any strong feelings one way or the other about the Payne 98.Imean, I have the taper(s) and the stress curves, but I would reallyappreciate the subjective stuff from the listmembers, please. Cheers Peter from dnhayashida@yahoo.com Sun Mar 10 16:31:00 2002 g2AMUx813911 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:30:59 -0600 10 Mar 2002 14:30:55 PST Subject: Re: Dimension increases In my opinion, glue penetrates into (between thefibers) of the bamboo on both sides then hardens (setsup, cross-links, whatever you want to call it). So,there should be no glue line to allow for. Thereshould be bamboo to bamboo contact with glue saturatedinto both sides of the join. If you are trying to gluenon-porous materials together, yes you do need a glueline to get them to stick together. With wood orbamboo or other porous materials a glue line means youhave a poor fit.Darryl Hayashida --- Adam Vigil wrote: Darryl, So using those different glues on the same tapersyou did not feel youneeded to decrease you #'s to account for the gluethickness? Did thethickness of the glue vary much between types? Adam----- Original Message -----From: "Darryl Hayashida" Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 11:50 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Having used Titebond II, Titebond II extend, epoxy, and polyurethane glue on the same taper, I would say the epoxy and polyurethane does add a bit of stiffness compared to the titebond. Not much, and not nearlyenough to go up a whole line weight. But that probably would depend on your glue lines. I typically have no glue lines visible.Darryl Hayashida --- Adam Vigil wrote: Jim, Very interesting. How about some input from those that have used various glues on the same tapers? Adam Vigil----- Original Message -----From: Jim Utzerath rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 6:20 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Adam, You pose an interesting question about the effect of the glue on the action of the rod. As a WAG, I'd say that the MOE of glue (unreinforced plastic) is negligible compared with bamboo. You would suspect that the effect is on the order of the ratio of the width of the glue line to the width of the strip so that a .003 glue line softens a .030 (across theflat) tip about 8-10 per cent. As the strip widens the "glue-effects" diminishes. An eight percentloss of MOE translates to an eight percent increase in curvature as the rod is cast, but only at thetip. Just a quick oversimplified answer. Anyone else? Jim U----- Original Message -----From: Adam Vigil rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:48 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue line does not add to the overalldimension. I have not found the same thing. I find that Using epon I do get an increase due to theglue. Being glue is not cane I have not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more or less to the specs. Glue alsodecreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring rods several years old it is almost impossible to know how much the glue line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way they are right on mark with the numbers after glue up. But in my mind if your glue is adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this is going to change the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to measure .003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane. And do any of us know the MOE of each glue or how .001" is going to effect the function of the rod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action for the line weight Iexpected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes to put on a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that actually what you want? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message -----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:41 AMSubject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, this board a lot. I've never seen more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the finishedblank due to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to be some change from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Mar 10 16:50:50 2002 g2AMon814426 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:50:49 - Subject: Re: Classes Scott,Having just read Ralph Moon's reply to you, I strongly agree. I no longer teach rod building as the last person I taught took so long to do anything right that I lost both time and money. As you can tell I was charging a flat fee for a finished rod-my mistake! So just teach how to build a ferruled blank with reel seat and cork grip.Regards,Hank. from goodaple@cox-internet.com Sun Mar 10 18:02:20 2002 g2B02J818733 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:02:19 -0600 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license180e1de7f543f89455b24e508f9cca39) Subject: Sowbug and lotsa burl. I hate doing this on list, burl some have requested info about the =unknown burl. It is creamy colored like box elder yet has brown eyes in =some of it. This is solid burl. The black jack has pink to tan =coloration with black pitch like pockets. I have a limited amount of the =blackjack, yet I can get more of it and the cherry burl. I'll try to =respond to each person that responded as quickly as possible. It's =taking awhile due to the numerous responses. Thanks for your patience. =RandallG NW AR. I hate doing this on list, burl some = info about the unknown burl. It is creamy colored like box elder yet has = coloration with black pitch like pockets. I have a limited amount of the = blackjack, yet I can get more of it and the cherry burl. I'll try to = each person that responded as quickly as possible. It's taking awhile = AR. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Sun Mar 10 18:21:38 2002 g2B0Lc821211 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:21:38 - ([209.179.149.154] helo=computer) id 16kDZH-0002be-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:21:36 -0800 "Rodmakers List-serv" Subject: Re: Dimension increases Harry, Naw, he said it was important to allow maximum powerfibres and if you =did have to alter the rod it would give you some leeway. Harry it seems =to me I have not come across info on allowing to change the tapers for =the glue. I know it is there in the original rod but is seems to be an =unknown. Adam Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:03 PMSubject: Re: Dimension increases I don't have Milward in front of me, but didn't he say that in = Bob Milward was very clear in his text when he said it is better to =slightly overbuild then to under build. Harry, Naw, he said it was important to allow = change the tapers for the glue. I know it is there in the original rod = seems to be an unknown. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Harry= Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 = PMSubject: Re: Dimension =increases Bob= clear in his text when he said it is better to slightly overbuild = under build. from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Sun Mar 10 18:53:53 2002 g2B0rq825003 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:53:52 - by direct-pest.com [208.27.26.103] for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:51:09 -0500 Subject: Chat Tonight? Hey are we all going to chat on Todd's site tonight? Joe =================================================Lost in the Hills of East Tennessee with a Bamboo Fly Rod in one hand and a cigar in the other....."What a Great Life". Visit my bambooflyrod site at http://www.direct-pest.com/rodmaker > from goodaple@cox-internet.com Sun Mar 10 19:08:39 2002 g2B18c827041 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:08:38 -0600 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license180e1de7f543f89455b24e508f9cca39) Subject: Sowbug Roundup Some of you asked when the roundup is. It is this Friday and Saturday in =Mtn. Home AR. More info can be found at =http://www.northarkansasflyfisher.org/ This is really cool event lot of =flytiers and other interesting flyworld stuff. Check out the website. =Randall G. Hope to see ya there. Some of you asked when the roundup is.= http://www.northarkansasf= This is really cool event lot of flytiers and other interesting flyworld = there. from mrc@mars.plala.or.jp Sun Mar 10 19:23:23 2002 g2B1NM827552 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:23:22 - id g2B1NGn16235 for ; Mon, 11 Mar2002 10:23:16 +0900 (JST) id KAA24625 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 200210:23:15 +0900 (JST) Subject: Fw: Dimension increases Harry et al, I believe Harry's insight with glue thickness is exactly correct.I like para very much and am fallen in love with, though.(^^) Epon, which is my favourite, would increase dimension by 0.1mm ( 0.004")glue thickness in ordinal use. I tried post curing (heat treatment) after a while of glueing with Epon. I am not sure how the glue thickness is reduced actually, but it surelyreduces the thickness of glue line, now I can't see the line. I am not yet thickness would reduce the glueing effects. Does someone know aboutthis?With or without knowing the effects of glue thickness, I might have smaller or larger dimension.. To make an exact copy of an original rod, we should use exactly samematerial, same glue, same method, etc.. If it is planed on 6" station PF,we should do so, if the original maker did heat curing, we had better to do the same. Max Almost every rod I build is based on an original rodwhich I have cast myself, and fallen in love with. Forexample, I don't build para's because I don't like 'em. Howclose can I come to the rods I am copying? I'm not going tobe perfect, but I won't be consistently .006" - .010"oversized either. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Mar 10 20:09:42 2002 g2B29g828615 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 20:09:42 -0600 Subject: Re: shop accident Hey, losing, or almost losing, 1 thumb ain't no big deal. Having been dumb enough to lose the fingers of my right hand in a corn picker in 1970 I'm unimpressed with the "accidents" I've heard about so far.Signed,"lefty" Hank Woolman. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Mar 10 20:09:55 2002 g2B29t828634 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 20:09:55 - Subject: Re: Dimension increases Ralph, Harry, et al.,What I'm about to say will sound like heresy to some, but, here goes. Yes, lately I've been planing my strips .002- .003 under 1/2 the final rod dimensions for 2 reasons: 1. My micrometer flattens the internal apex ofeach strip and 2. The glue may add to the final dimension. That isn't the heresy, this is-namely I've been filing the outside of an over sized rod for years with NO noticeable affect on it's performance vis-a-vis a rod of the same dimension that did not need sanding.My thinking is that if you have a rod with great power fibers, knocking off a few power fibers won't change it's action from a rod of the same final dimension but not sanded on the outside. Of course comparing rods made from different culms is always chancy due to differences in each culm.On several occasions I've had to rework a rod from, say, 8' to 7'6" and have ended up sanding the outside to the dimensions I wanted and have had every one turn out well. All this presupposes that you have great power fibers to start with. End of sermon.Regards,Hank. from sats@gte.net Sun Mar 10 20:24:40 2002 g2B2Od829286 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 20:24:39 - (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with Subject: Re: PVC rod tubes? Oh Yea! Getting back to the list after a couple of weeks of work - work - work... ... Also, by the time one pays for $3 worth of PVC tubing,and $8 worth of end cap and male and female screw fittings time and effort. Harry, I don't know where you get your end caps, but I get mine for less then $1.00US. The one advantage that PVC has over aluminum. It doesn't scream out"Steal me,Steal me!" Especially if you put something like "Return to Medical examiner".on the outside of the tube... If I were building to sell, I'd go with the aluminum...---------------------------- Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/sats from crmitchell@ocsonline.com Sun Mar 10 20:39:11 2002 g2B2dB829739 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 20:39:11 - helo=ocsonline.com) id 16kFh2-0000aB-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 21:37:45 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 Subject: LAthe I just picked up a new Taig Micro on ebay with several extras. I recall discussion on the list about this and some others, but don't recall the pros and cons. What's a fair price ? Thanx from jojo@ipa.net Sun Mar 10 20:45:29 2002 g2B2jS800115 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 20:45:28 -0600 helo=default) id 16kFoU-00015h-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 21:45:26 -0500 Subject: Re: LAthe Check out www.cartertools.com Nick gives a 15% discount over factoryretail prices, plus freeshipping, excluding motors. M-D I just picked up a new Taig Micro on ebay with several extras. Irecall discussion on the list about this and some others, but don'trecall the pros and cons. What's a fair price ? Thanx from channer@frontier.net Sun Mar 10 20:53:08 2002 g2B2r8800571 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 20:53:08 - Subject: Re: Dimension increases Guys;As near as I can figure out, Garrison and us here on the list are theonly rodmakers who ever built a rod that gave a damn about every last.001 of an inch. Look at all the tapers from old rods, and that includesPayne, Leonard and whoever, that have to be averaged across the flats,even with no varnish left on the rod, because the dimensions are sodifferent. I really think you're splitting hairs that don't have to besplit, they're thin enuf as it is. I suppose there are casters in theworld, or even on this list, that can tell a few thousands difference ina rods diameter, but I think one would have to have the original in onehand and the copy in the other.john from rkrees@mcn.net Sun Mar 10 21:00:09 2002 g2B309800992 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 21:00:09 -0600 id 16kG2R-0005j8-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:59:51 -0800 Subject: Re: shop accident it tells the story for us and maybe will help! dumb enough well you said itRon from rkrees@mcn.net Sun Mar 10 21:02:38 2002 g2B32c801272 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 21:02:38 - id 16kG55-0006Ub-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:02:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Dimension increases cut one of the rods in question in half and look at it then reply.Ron from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Mar 10 21:26:22 2002 g2B3QK801942 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 21:26:20 - Subject: Re: Deflection in casting, Charles Ritz Hey, gang,More heresy-after reading and listening to everybody's "scientific" analysis of various casting styles I still build a taper I think will do a certain job and if it doesn't, I rework the taper for the next rod. I consider all the so- called scientific analyses as so much B.S. Of course I've made some rods that never saw the light of day. But I consider that thereare so many variables, both in casting and rod making that computerizing the building may only approximate the desired result. We still have to build 'em, then change the taper to achieve our desired result or at least that's how I do it.Heretically,Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Mar 10 21:32:16 2002 g2B3WF802312 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 21:32:15 - Subject: Re: Dimension increases Right on, John.Cheers,Hank. from mrc@mars.plala.or.jp Sun Mar 10 22:49:17 2002 g2B4nG804127 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 22:49:16 - id g2B4nBC23710; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:49:11 +0900 (JST) id NAA07883; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:49:09 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Deflection in casting, Charles Ritz Hank, I completely agree with you.We have to build 'em and correct next time.Coputer analysis is like kind 'a movies. We know its a fake (artificiallymade) butwe can't stop seeing 'em.I guess, scientific rodmakers not always design their rod taper by onlycomputer. They also are making by trial and error. Max Hey, gang,More heresy-after reading and listening to everybody's "scientific"analysis of various casting styles I still build a taper I think will do acertain job and if it doesn't, I rework the taper for the next rod. Iconsider all the so-called scientific analyses as so much B.S. Of course I've made some rods that never saw the light of day. But I consider that there are so many variables, both in casting and rod making that computerizing thebuilding may only approximate the desired result. We still have to build 'em, then change the taper to achieve our desired result or at least that's how I do it.Heretically,Hank. from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Mar 11 03:31:18 2002 g2B9VG809428 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 03:31:17 - g2B9V9Q69538; Subject: Re: Sowbug and lotsa burl. Randall In Australian English, there are pitfalls! "Wanker", as I have learned to my embarrassment and shame, is one. "Brown eye", it is my duty to inform you, is another. [:-)] Peter Randall pitfalls! "Wanker", as I have learned to my = shame, is one. is another. :-) Peter from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Mar 11 04:28:36 2002 g2BASY810272 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 04:28:35 - Subject: Re: Sowbug and lotsa burl. Pleeeeeeease don't lets go down another one of these roads.... TY At 08:29 PM 3/11/02 +1100, Peter McKean wrote: Randall In Australian English, there are pitfalls! "Wanker", as I have learned to my embarrassment and shame, is one. "Brown eye", it is my duty to inform you, is another. [:-)] Peter /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from BrooksideNC@aol.com Mon Mar 11 06:12:26 2002 g2BCCP811646 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 06:12:25 - for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:12:11 - Subject: PVC Tubes I Just finished making about 6 tubes at a cost of about $5.00 a tube at the most. If you go into Home Depot they have about three types of PVC. One isa gray color, one is black and one is white, the gray being very expensive and on the heavy side. Get the one that is black. Last year NC had a guides truck broken into and all the rods were stolen EXCEPT the expensive T & T rod in a $5.00 PVC tube. Something to thinkabout. Tight Lines, Richard FederationGuide/Fly Fishing Instructor/Custom TierBrookside Guides -- I Just finished makingabout 6 tubes at a cost of about $5.00 a tube at the most. If you go intoHome Depot they have about three types of PVC. One is a gray color, one isblack and one is white, the gray being very expensive and on the heavy side.Get the one that is black. Last year NC had a guides truck broken into and all the rods were stolenEXCEPT the expensive T & T rod in a $5.00 PVC tube. Something to thinkabout. Tight Lines, Richard FederationGuide/Fly FishingInstructor/Custom Tier from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 11 06:32:43 2002 g2BCWg812085 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 06:32:42 - ;Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:32:35 +0000 "Rodmakers List-serv" Subject: Re: Dimension increases Harry, How did the first 18 P101's cast. Did you end up with 18 identical rods = I really don't think that a few thousandths is going to make a great =deal of difference in the feel of two rods, at least not to 99 percent =of the people who will cast it. I do understand your mind set to reach targeted dimensions and obtain a =degree of consistency but I believe other variables skew the end product =so much that a few thousandths is an insignificant amount. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 10:22 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Not sure I agree with you here. Nor do I completely disagree. If =consistency is one of our goals, then we have to eliminate variables. =In order to build to tapers other than those we develop ourselves, we =use the measured dimensions as our standard. Let me see if I can = Harry, How did the first 18 P101's cast. Did = with 18 identical rods in there casting similarities? I really don't think that a few = going to make a great deal of difference in the feel of two rods, at = to 99 percent of the people who will cast it. I do understand your mind set to reach= dimensions and obtain a degree of consistency but I believe other = amount. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO ----- Original Message ----- Harry= Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Dimension =increases develop ourselves, we use the measured dimensions as our = from mschaffer@mindspring.com Mon Mar 11 06:57:09 2002 g2BCv8812587 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 06:57:09 - helo=mindspring.com) id 16kPMN-00032Z-00; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:57:03 -0500 Subject: Change of email address Guys, It seems that Earthlink hasn't changed my account, so the existingemail addy is still the original and functions. I'll call them later to see what'sup. Thanks,Doc --- Mike Shaffer--- mschaffer@mindspring.com--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. from Lazybee45@aol.com Mon Mar 11 07:04:37 2002 g2BD4a812885 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:04:36 - Subject: Re: Sowbug and lotsa burl. In a message dated 3/11/02 3:31:52 AM Central Standard Time, petermckean@netspace.net.au writes: In English/American English there are as well. My former boss was visiting England where her husband was working at Oxford (he is a physics professorat a small college) They were at a dinner and were talking to several of the other people when one kind gentleman said to Barb, "Well, do you mind terribly if I come by and knock you up?"She said it wouldn't have been so bad if the man wern't in his 70's! And believe me, if some pretty young thing had invited me to "knock her up" my wife would probably kill both of us! mark visit Wood Art Custom Designs http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html Hand crafted items made to order! from dmanders@telusplanet.net Mon Mar 11 07:04:56 2002 g2BD4s812937 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:04:54 -0600 (InterMail vM.5.01.04.01 201-253-122-122-101-20011014) with Subject: Dimensions - glue addition Guys/Gals, Looks like some work is required by somebody to determine increase indimension of various types of glue + overall strength. Further, looks like further research is required into the glues used by theoriginal builder so that it can be replicated or compensated for inconstruction. I really do appreciate all those the responded to the thread. I[we][some ofus] may be making a mountain out of a mole hill with regard to the glue linedimension increase. Perhaps in a big world, it make little difference. Or further, it can warm up and I can go fishing and forget all this for a while. regards, Don ffff,0000,0000http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from Jskve@aol.com Mon Mar 11 07:07:09 2002 g2BD78813331 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:07:09 -0600 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:06:56 -0500 Subject: Remove Please remove my name from the thread list. Thanks Please remove my name from the thread list.Thanks from Lazybee45@aol.com Mon Mar 11 07:13:34 2002 g2BDDX813717 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:13:33 - for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:13:20 - Subject: Re: PVC Tubes In a message dated 3/11/02 6:13:05 AM Central Standard Time, BrooksideNC@aol.com writes: You know, there is a lot to be said for "utility" tubes. I am looking at making nice rod tubes from various woods, and they will be very nice! but a PVC tube is both sturdy and utilitarian, also cheap! Best of all anyone can make one. A tube of the correct length ( I like the cream colored stuff or the black) a cap for each end and Voy-LAA! Rod tube! Cram a piece ofcarpet padding in the end of the tube or glue it to the end caps (on the INSIDE dummies!) for protection and you have a perfect rod case that is impervious to the elements. I added a couple of split rings (like key chain rings) of about 1 inch diameter to mine by wrapping filiment tape around the case and through the split rings (D rings would work even better, but they are about $1 each, while I have oodles of split rings laying around the house) and using a strap with a snap on each end as a carrying strap. Ugly, but waterresistant, functional and you can even use it as a walking stick! Or something to fend off bears with! Or if youwish, open the other end as well, make a mouthpiece from wax or something and make it into a Digeredoo! "Brrruuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" mark visit Wood Art Custom Designs http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html Hand crafted items made to order! from eamon_lee@hotmail.com Mon Mar 11 08:00:08 2002 g2BE07815089 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:00:08 - Mon, 11 Mar 2002 05:59:59 -0800 Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:59:58 GMT Subject: OT-Atlantic Salmon Fly Tying Stuff FILETIME=[080D66C0:01C1C905] Sorry for the bandwidth, but I am looking to liquidate my collection of atlantic salmon flytying materials. Just do not have the time anymore and I'm trying to scare up a new lathe, etc... I have just about EVERTHING one would need to tie every classic in the book. I am trying to compile a list, so if you are interested, email me and I will forward it.Thanks again folks.Eamon _________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 11 08:21:14 2002 g2BELD816611 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:21:13 - (authenticated) Mon, 11 Mar 2002 06:20:59 -0800 Rodmakers List-serv Subject: Re: Dimension increases --------------4BDD15D2D8423F63843022FE Steve, because I've never had more than one on hand atany time. I still don't own one. Every time Ifinish one, someone buys it. Working on one formyself now, and gonna price it outrageously inhopes of keeping it for a year or two.Were they pretty doggone close? Yes, theywere. All of them were nice, even if I did makethem. Since a few thousandths don't matter, I'dsuggest we all go back to Vernier calipers. Let'squit all this worrying about thousandths, and goback to measuring in 64ths. Heck, let's quitswapping tapers altogether, and just eyeballthings to make sure the rods are a little biggerat the bottom end than at the top. While we're atit, let's stop worrying about how crooked theyare. After all, a crooked rod is gonna cast okayisn't it? And one more thing... from now on,let's just tell folks that we like dust in ourfinishes. Maybe we can even come up with somesort of pseudo-scientific explanation about howdust bumps increase the aerodynamic effectivenessof the rod in NASA wind tunnels. Just funning ya, Steve. Yes, there is a pointof diminishing returns in worrying about theconsistency of our rods. But most of us haven'treached it yet. Maybe two or three out of the 500or so list-members have made it there, but notme. If we're trying to re-create the low-endMontagues, then GG is our hero. But if we'remaking modern versions of the great rods of thepast, well, I'm gonna try to hit the numbers.Every time. Just my $.02, and all in a spirit ofdiscovery, Harry Steven trauthwein wrote: Harry, How did the first 18 P101's cast. Did youend up with 18 identical rods in there castingsimilarities? I really don't think that a fewthousandths is going to make a great deal ofdifference in the feel of two rods, at least notto 99 percent of the people who will cast it. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------4BDD15D2D8423F63843022FE Steve, on one for myself now, and gonna price it outrageously in hopes of keepingit for a year or two. quit swapping tapers altogether, and just eyeball things to make sure the Maybe we can even come up with some sort of pseudo-scientific explanationabout how dust bumps increase the aerodynamic effectiveness of the rodin NASA wind tunnels. if we're making modern versions of the great rods of the past, well, I'm Steven trauthwein wrote: did the first 18 P101's cast. Did you end up with 18 identical rods in really don't think that a few thousandths is going to make a great dealof difference in the feel of two rods, at least not to 99 percent of thepeople who will cast it. -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------4BDD15D2D8423F63843022FE-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 11 08:26:08 2002 g2BEQ7817041 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:26:07 - (authenticated) Mon, 11 Mar 2002 06:26:04 -0800 Subject: Re: Dimension increases --------------6D5085FBB2E315F214167909 Adam, Help me remember... what popular tapers arebased on setups rather than rods which weremeasured for flat-to-flat dimensions? Seems likeI remember Wayne posting some of the originalsix-inch station settings for Paul Young rods, butI honestly can't remember others. Seriously,Harry Adam Vigil wrote: Many of the tapers we have are on 5" centers.These numbers were taken from setups and that iswhat we have to work with. I guess if matchingthe original rod flat to flat is the wantedoutcome you are all set. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------6D5085FBB2E315F214167909 Adam, on setups rather than rods which were measured for flat-to-flat Seems like I remember Wayne posting some of the original six-inch stationsettings for Paul Young rods, but I honestly can't remember others. Adam Vigil wrote:Many of thetaperswe have are on 5" centers. These numbers were taken from setups and thatis what we have to work with. I guess if matching the original rod flatto flat is the wanted outcome you are all set. -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------6D5085FBB2E315F214167909-- from goodaple@cox-internet.com Mon Mar 11 08:31:23 2002 g2BEVN817456 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:31:23 -0600 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license180e1de7f543f89455b24e508f9cca39) Subject: Sowbug and lotsa burl My apologies to anyone of whom which may have taken offense at offering =the burl to anyone through the list. I requested all participants to =email me offlist. I apparently MAY have offended a list member. I =apologize. Randall G. NW AR. My apologies to anyone of whom which = offense at offering the burl to anyone through the list. I requested all = participants to email me offlist. I apparently MAY have offended a list = from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Mon Mar 11 08:54:01 2002 g2BEs0818997 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:54:00 -0600 IAA06849; GAA10193; g2BEsIL06931; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 06:53:56 -0800 rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Dimension increases this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. If you use a taper from one of the archives or from the taper program, itseems to me that you have to subtract for the glue thickness from the stripdimensions to end up with the rod being the right dimensions after glue up.The old tapers included the glue so if you don't decrease strip dimensions,you end up with a rod that doesn't match the taper, same with hex rod, thestress are based on a glued up rod and what the computer shows and realitymay be two different things. We calculate stresses without the properdimensions cause no where do we take into account the thickness of the glueand that thickness changes with time. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to dimensionand glue. Some even say that the glue line does not add to the overalldimension. I have not found the same thing. I find that Using epon I do getan increase due to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have not been willingto reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet thateach glue going to add a little more or less to the specs. Glue alsodecreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring rods several years old itis almost impossible to know how much the glue line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way they areright on mark with the numbers after glue up. But in my mind if your glueis adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this is going tochange the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to measure .003" overthe original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane. And do any of us knowthe MOE of each glue or how .001" is going to effect the function of therod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action for theline weight I expected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes to puton a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that actually what you want? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:41 AMSubject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the finished blankdue to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to be somechange from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html If you use a taper from one of the archives or from the taper program, it seems tome that you have to subtract for the glue thickness from the strip dimensionsto end up with the rod being the right dimensions after glue up. The old tapers included the glue so if you don't decrease strip dimensions, you end up with a rod that doesn't match the taper, same with hex rod, the stress are basedon a glued up rod and what the computer shows and reality may be two different things. We calculate stresses without the proper dimensions cause no wheredo we take into account the thickness of the glue and that thickness changes with time. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair Planning 0083 -----Original Message-----From: Adam Vigil 5:49 rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Dimension increasesDon, I have asked that same question on 2occasions. Most just plane to dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue line does find that Using epon I do get an increase due to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more or less to the specs. Glue also decreases over the years and shrinks. So measuringrods several years old it is almost impossible to know how much the glue line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow glue up. But in my mind if your glue is adding .003" and you remove the sameamount of cane this is going to change the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to measure .003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane. effect the function of the rod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing thecane has produce the action for the line weight I expected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes to put on a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that actually what you want? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- From: Don & Sandy Andersen Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:41 AMSubject: Dimension increasesGuys/Gals,For the past number of years Iwatched this board a lot. I've never seen more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the finished blank due to glue.Anyone ever done any workon the subject. I know that there has to be some change from the glueaddition. Some glues more thatothers.regards,Donhttp://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Mar 11 11:00:01 2002 g2BH00826663 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:00:00 - Subject: Re: PVC Tubes Something to remember if you use PVC tubes as I do because they nevercrush under normal usage and bend less than the rod that's in it when it comes to luggage handlers etc is the glue used to permanently fix the bottom cap to the tube will make a hell of a mess of the rod's finish if it's not completely cured before closing the tube with the rod in it.There doesn't even need to be much to do this either all it takes is a sniff to ruin the varnish. The result is varnish that looks uncured and wrinkled. Bloody awful actually.I wont go into why I know this. Tony You know, there is a lot to be said for "utility" tubes. I am looking atmaking nice rod tubes from various woods, and they will be very nice! but aPVC tube is both sturdy and utilitarian, also cheap! Best of all anyone canmake one. A tube of the correct length ( I like the cream colored stuff orthe black) a cap for each end and Voy-LAA! Rod tube! Cram a piece ofcarpetpadding in the end of the tube or glue it to the end caps (on the INSIDEdummies!) for protection and you have a perfect rod case that isimperviousto the elements. I added a couple of split rings (like key chain rings) ofabout 1 inch diameter to mine by wrapping filiment tape around the caseandthrough the split rings (D rings would work even better, but they are about$1 each, while I have oodles of split rings laying around the house) andusing a strap with a snap on each end as a carrying strap.Ugly, but waterresistant, functional and you can even use it as a walkingstick! Or something to fend off bears with! Or if youwish, open the otherend as well, make a mouthpiece from wax or something and make it into aDigeredoo!"Brrruuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" mark visit Wood Art Custom Designs http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html Hand crafted items made to order! /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Mar 11 11:16:44 2002 g2BHGh828033 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:16:43 -0600 Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:16:42 PST Subject: Re: PVC Tubes tony, i stopped using glue on the pvc caps. i wrap alayer of masking tape around the tube then pound thecap on. just try to get it off. it is still sealed butno glue. timothy --- Tony Young wrote: Something to remember if you use PVC tubes as I dobecause they never crush under normal usage and bend less than the rod that'sin it when it comes to luggage handlers etc is the glue used to permanentlyfix the bottom cap to the tube will make a hell of a mess of the rod'sfinish if it's not completely cured before closing the tube with therod in it.There doesn't even need to be much to do this eitherall it takes is a sniff to ruin the varnish. The result is varnishthat looks uncured and wrinkled. Bloody awful actually.I wont go into why I know this. Tony You know, there is a lot to be said for "utility" tubes. I am looking at making nice rod tubes from various woods, and they will be very nice! but a PVC tube is both sturdy and utilitarian, also cheap! Best of all anyone can make one. A tube of the correct length ( I like the cream colored stuff or the black) a cap for each end and Voy-LAA! Rod tube! Cram a piece of carpet padding in the end of the tube or glue it to the end caps (on the INSIDE dummies!) for protection and you have a perfect rod case that is impervious to the elements. I added a couple of split rings (like key chain rings) of about 1 inch diameter to mine by wrapping filiment tape around the case and through the split rings (D rings would work even better, but they are about $1 each, while I have oodles of split rings laying around the house) and using a strap with a snap on each end as a carrying strap. Ugly, but waterresistant, functional and you can even use it as a walkingstick! Or something to fend off bears with! Or if youwish, open the other end as well, make a mouthpiece from wax or something and make it into a Digeredoo!"Brrruuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" mark visit Wood Art Custom Designs http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html Hand crafted items made to order! /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Mar 11 11:19:26 2002 g2BHJO828385 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:19:24 -0600 "rod 'akers" Subject: Re: PVC Tubes I do that now for the top caps but it's OK for the bottom ones as long as you do it a week or so before needing to use it. Probably only needs a day or so but once bitten and all that.TY At 09:16 AM 3/11/02 -0800, timothy troester wrote: tony, i stopped using glue on the pvc caps. i wrap alayer of masking tape around the tube then pound thecap on. just try to get it off. it is still sealed butno glue. timothy --- Tony Young wrote: Something to remember if you use PVC tubes as I dobecause they never crushunder normal usage and bend less than the rod that'sin it when it comes toluggage handlers etc is the glue used to permanentlyfix the bottom cap tothe tube will make a hell of a mess of the rod'sfinish if it's notcompletely cured before closing the tube with therod in it.There doesn't even need to be much to do this eitherall it takes is asniff to ruin the varnish. The result is varnishthat looks uncured andwrinkled. Bloody awful actually.I wont go into why I know this. Tony You know, there is a lot to be said for "utility" tubes. I am looking at making nice rod tubes from various woods, and they will be very nice! but a PVC tube is both sturdy and utilitarian, also cheap! Best of all anyone can make one. A tube of the correct length ( I like the cream colored stuff or the black) a cap for each end and Voy-LAA! Rod tube! Cram a piece of carpet padding in the end of the tube or glue it to the end caps (on the INSIDE dummies!) for protection and you have a perfect rod case that is impervious to the elements. I added a couple of split rings (like key chain rings) of about 1 inch diameter to mine by wrapping filiment tape around the case and through the split rings (D rings would work even better, but they are about $1 each, while I have oodles of split rings laying around the house) and using a strap with a snap on each end as a carrying strap. Ugly, but waterresistant, functional and you can even use it as a walkingstick! Or something to fend off bears with! Or if youwish, open the other end as well, make a mouthpiece from wax or something and make it into a Digeredoo!"Brrruuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" mark visit Wood Art Custom Designs http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html Hand crafted items made to order! /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at:www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Mon Mar 11 11:27:25 2002 g2BHRP829070 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:27:25 -0600 g2BHK5x11855; , Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ cheap special effect basins, no doubt. Ni! Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ I hate to be the one to kill an urban myth but no, they drain the same way. I took special notice of the direction of spin before leaving. I was mostdisappointed.Funny thing though. I saw an episode of Michael Pallin's (Monty Python)Pole To Pole and when he was on the equator at possibly Victoria Falls inAfrica there were two wash basins one on either side of the equatorseparated by just a foot or two. There was no plumbing beneath the basinsso there could be no simulated effect.He plugged the basins and filled them with water then pulled the plugs andthe water did indeed drain in opposite directions.I have no answer. Tony At 04:12 PM 3/9/02 -0600, Rich Jezioro wrote: I wonder if those drains spinning in the opposite direction can throwone's orientation, hence balance off. If so, with some libation, it mightlead to a hazardous situation. Tony, did you find that effect you up here?Rich Jezioro At 02:53 PM 3/9/2002, Ralph W. Moon wrote: IanPlease tell me he didn' t do it again. You have to be kidding.Ralph Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending too greata time yarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least trying too) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time to spend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the GreatSouthern in NZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Mar 11 11:38:52 2002 g2BHco800610 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:38:50 -0600 "Rich Jezioro" , , Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ Could be but it had me until I tried it.I can remember reading an ongoing debate between two astronomers in a list serv I signed up to when I first got hooked up to the internet back before it was as popular as it now is about this very thing.Basically one was adamant for and the other naturally against. I very foolishly (because I was a mere mental midget among giants) asked why not just observe the phenomenon them selves.The response I got back from both of them interestingly was field observation alone was not enough especially when it didn't agree with theory.Make of it what you will. Tony At 12:26 PM 3/11/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: cheap special effect basins, no doubt. Ni! Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 10:20 PMSubject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ I hate to be the one to kill an urban myth but no, they drain the same way. I took special notice of the direction of spin before leaving. I was mostdisappointed.Funny thing though. I saw an episode of Michael Pallin's (Monty Python)Pole To Pole and when he was on the equator at possibly Victoria Falls inAfrica there were two wash basins one on either side of the equatorseparated by just a foot or two. There was no plumbing beneath thebasinsso there could be no simulated effect.He plugged the basins and filled them with water then pulled the plugs andthe water did indeed drain in opposite directions.I have no answer. Tony At 04:12 PM 3/9/02 -0600, Rich Jezioro wrote: I wonder if those drains spinning in the opposite direction can throwone's orientation, hence balance off. If so, with some libation, it mightlead to a hazardous situation. Tony, did you find that effect you up here?Rich Jezioro At 02:53 PM 3/9/2002, Ralph W. Moon wrote: IanPlease tell me he didn' t do it again. You have to be kidding.Ralph Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending toogreat a time yarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least trying too) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time to spend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the GreatSouthern in NZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from jojo@ipa.net Mon Mar 11 13:37:34 2002 g2BJbX807614 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:37:33 -0600 helo=default) id 16kVbd-0008AP-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:37:13 -0500 Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ Henceforth, this shall be the ruling premise with respect to all techniques ofrodmaking which maybe called into question.Example: Premise: "But the taper casts like a dream. I never would havethought a rod could soeffortlessly lay out so much line, with such delicacy, and would throw aquarter ounce of lead withthe same aplomb it lays out a 22 dry fly. Why do you say it isn't a goodtaper?"Answer: "Field observation alone is not enough, especially when it doesn'tagree with theory, and intheory your taper is total crap." Finally, the perfect answer to all disputes of the technical aspects ofrodmaking. Thanks, Tony. M-D . . . field observation alone was not enough especially when it didn't agreewith theory. Tony At 12:26 PM 3/11/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: cheap special effect basins, no doubt. Ni! Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 10:20 PMSubject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ I hate to be the one to kill an urban myth but no, they drain the same way. I took special notice of the direction of spin before leaving. I was mostdisappointed.Funny thing though. I saw an episode of Michael Pallin's (Monty Python)Pole To Pole and when he was on the equator at possibly Victoria Falls inAfrica there were two wash basins one on either side of the equatorseparated by just a foot or two. There was no plumbing beneath thebasinsso there could be no simulated effect.He plugged the basins and filled them with water then pulled the plugs andthe water did indeed drain in opposite directions.I have no answer. Tony At 04:12 PM 3/9/02 -0600, Rich Jezioro wrote: I wonder if those drains spinning in the opposite direction can throwone's orientation, hence balance off. If so, with some libation, it mightlead to a hazardous situation. Tony, did you find that effect you up here?Rich Jezioro At 02:53 PM 3/9/2002, Ralph W. Moon wrote: IanPlease tell me he didn' t do it again. You have to be kidding.Ralph Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending toogreat a time yarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least trying too) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time to spend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the GreatSouthern in NZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from rextutor@yahoo.com Mon Mar 11 13:43:04 2002 g2BJh3808073 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:43:04 -0600 11 Mar 2002 11:42:58 PST Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ Rich Jezioro , rmoon@ida.net, iank@ts.co.nz The direction that a toilet flushes is determined bythe direction the water jets are pointed. The toiletdirection in the southern hemisphere is a myth. Don't believe me http://www.discovery.com/area/skinnyon/skinnyon970523/skinny1.htmlseen it and flushed it , too. --- Tony Young wrote: Could be but it had me until I tried it.I can remember reading an ongoing debate between twoastronomers in a list serv I signed up to when I first got hooked up tothe internet back before it was as popular as it now is about this verything.Basically one was adamant for and the othernaturally against. I very foolishly (because I was a mere mental midget amonggiants) asked why not just observe the phenomenon them selves.The response I got back from both of theminterestingly was field observation alone was not enough especially when itdidn't agree with theory.Make of it what you will. Tony At 12:26 PM 3/11/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: cheap special effect basins, no doubt. Ni! Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 10:20 PMSubject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ I hate to be the one to kill an urban myth but no, they drain the same way. I took special notice of the direction of spin before leaving. I was most disappointed.Funny thing though. I saw an episode of Michael Pallin's (Monty Python) Pole To Pole and when he was on the equator at possibly Victoria Falls in Africa there were two wash basins one on either side of the equator separated by just a foot or two. There was no plumbing beneath the basins so there could be no simulated effect.He plugged the basins and filled them with water then pulled the plugs and the water did indeed drain in opposite directions. I have no answer. Tony At 04:12 PM 3/9/02 -0600, Rich Jezioro wrote: I wonder if those drains spinning in the opposite direction can throw one's orientation, hence balance off. If so, with some libation, it might lead to a hazardous situation. Tony, did you find that effect you up here?Rich Jezioro At 02:53 PM 3/9/2002, Ralph W. Moon wrote: IanPlease tell me he didn' t do it again. You have to be kidding. Ralph Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending too great a time yarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least trying too) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time to spend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the Great Southern in NZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from johnh@structsys.com Mon Mar 11 13:48:01 2002 g2BJlv808472 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:48:01 - g2BJlu602200 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:47:56 -0500 Subject: furled leader question Darrel Martin's book on micropatterns shows a "two hook furling tool" =that appears to be a relatively simple geared tool for spinning furled =leaders. Does anybody know if this tool is available? The companion =weights he shows are Matarelli, I think, but I can not find any flyshops =on the web that have any Matarelli tools other than bobbins and/ or =whip finishers. john "two hook furling tool" that appears to be a relatively simple geared = can not find any flyshops on the web that have any Matarelli tools other = john from aport@si.rr.com Mon Mar 11 14:10:53 2002 g2BKAq810427 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:10:52 - Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:10:35 -0500 Subject: Re: furled leader question I think you want a "spinning dubber" for making brush-type dubbing. You =can also get some weight and a cup hook and affix the one to the other =and get the same effect (if you're talking about the one he pictures on =pg. 62)Art I think you want a "spinning dubber" for making brush-type dubbing. = also get some weight and a cup hook and affix the one to the other and = same effect (if you're talking about the one he pictures on pg. =62)Art from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Mon Mar 11 14:23:59 2002 g2BKNw811335 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:23:58 -0600 0000 "Brian D. Creek" ,"Rich Jezioro" , , Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ But, the bathtub, they drain differently....tom----- Original Message ----- Jezioro ; ; Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ The direction that a toilet flushes is determined bythe direction the water jets are pointed. The toiletdirection in the southern hemisphere is a myth.Don't believe mehttp://www.discovery.com/area/skinnyon/skinnyon970523/skinny1.htmlseen it and flushed it , too. --- Tony Young wrote: Could be but it had me until I tried it.I can remember reading an ongoing debate between twoastronomers in a listserv I signed up to when I first got hooked up tothe internet back beforeit was as popular as it now is about this verything.Basically one was adamant for and the othernaturally against. I veryfoolishly (because I was a mere mental midget amonggiants) asked why notjust observe the phenomenon them selves.The response I got back from both of theminterestingly was fieldobservation alone was not enough especially when itdidn't agree with theory.Make of it what you will. Tony At 12:26 PM 3/11/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: cheap special effect basins, no doubt. Ni! Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 10:20 PMSubject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ I hate to be the one to kill an urban myth but no, they drain the same way. I took special notice of the direction of spin before leaving. I was most disappointed.Funny thing though. I saw an episode of Michael Pallin's (Monty Python) Pole To Pole and when he was on the equator at possibly Victoria Falls in Africa there were two wash basins one on either side of the equator separated by just a foot or two. There was no plumbing beneath the basins so there could be no simulated effect.He plugged the basins and filled them with water then pulled the plugs and the water did indeed drain in opposite directions. I have no answer. Tony At 04:12 PM 3/9/02 -0600, Rich Jezioro wrote: I wonder if those drains spinning in the opposite direction can throw one's orientation, hence balance off. If so, with some libation, it might lead to a hazardous situation. Tony, did you find that effect you up here?Rich Jezioro At 02:53 PM 3/9/2002, Ralph W. Moon wrote: IanPlease tell me he didn' t do it again. You have to be kidding. Ralph Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending too great a time yarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least trying too) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time to spend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the Great Southern in NZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at:www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Mar 11 14:32:03 2002 g2BKW2812142 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:32:02 - Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:31:58 PST Subject: Re: furled leader question my understanding is or the story i was told when itracked someone down and asked was that there may onlybeen one of them made but on the otherhand the personthat made it wanted so much money no on ever boughtone. before i was told that i looked high and low. itwist mine with a small dremel tool, one leg at a timethen twine. timothy. --- John Hightower wrote: Darrel Martin's book on micropatterns shows a "twohook furling tool" that appears to be a relativelysimple geared tool for spinning furled leaders. Does anybody know if this tool is available? Thecompanion weights he shows are Matarelli, I think,but I can not find any flyshops on the web that haveany Matarelli tools other than bobbins and/ or whipfinishers. john ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from ChristopherO@epicimaging.com Mon Mar 11 15:21:16 2002 be forged)) g2BLLF822493 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:21:15 - id ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:16:34 -0800 rodmakers Subject: RE: furled leader question this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Three or four years ago I started making furled leaders, after havingaquired and read Mr. Martin's book. In the process of trying to design andbuild a mechanical counter rotating double hook furler, I was lucking enoughto read Claud Freaner's article in the "tips, tools, and FAQ's" section ofthe Rodmakers web-page. That's the way to do it. All it takes is a drill, dremmel, or cordlessscrewdriver (variable speed control is ideal). You can make furled leadersto any specs you can dream up (traditional, WF, DT, etc), any length youwant (mine are from 6.5' to 14') from any material you want (silk orpolyester thread, 2lb. maxima, or even tippet material). The amount of time it takes is about what it takes to hand knot a leader(even slightly less). Look it up and give it a go. chris -----Original Message----- Subject: furled leader question Darrel Martin's book on micropatterns shows a "two hook furling tool" thatappears to be a relatively simple geared tool for spinning furled leaders.Does anybody know if this tool is available? The companion weights he showsare Matarelli, I think, but I can not find any flyshops on the web that haveany Matarelli tools other than bobbins and/ or whip finishers. john CleanDocumentEmail MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle- rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso- style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para- margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow- orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} Three or four years ago I started =makingfurled leaders, after having aquired and read Mr. Martin's book.=A0 In the process of trying to =design and builda mechanical counter rotating double hook furler, I was lucking enough =to readClaud Freaner's article in the "tips, tools, and FAQ's"section of the Rodmakers web-page. That's the way to=A0 do it.=A0All it takes is a drill, dremmel, or cordless screwdriver =(variablespeed control is ideal).=A0 You =can makefurled leaders to any specs you can dream up (traditional, WF, DT, =etc), anylength you want (mine are from 6.5' to 14') from any material youwant (silk or polyester thread, 2lb. maxima, or even tippet =material). The amount of time it takes is =about whatit takes to hand knot a leader (even =slightly less). Look it up and give it a =go. chris -----Original =Message-----From: John Hightower Sent: Monday, March 11,=2002 11:49AM Subject: furled leader =question onmicropatterns shows a "two hook furling tool" that appears to =be a anybody areMatarelli, I think, but I can not find any flyshops on the web that =have any finishers. john from rcrensha@midsouth.rr.com Mon Mar 11 15:58:16 2002 g2BLwF827354 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:58:15 - g2BLwE905930; Subject: Damn, It's good to use PVC! Damn, it's good to use PVC...You can lash the PVC tubes to your pontoon boat and you won't even careif the oars scrape them.You can lay it in the bottom of a drift boat and not care what steps onit.You can find it easier in the dark (vs. wood, black, brown or darkcolored tubes).You can cut it with ratcheted anvil tool in about 30 seconds.You can make a new one in one minute if you screw one up.They don't rust, oxidize, or corrode.You don't mind hitting it with a wrench when the top gets stuck.You can let 'em roll around in the trunk and they don't clink or makemuch noise.The airlines think they are important plans or papers and rarely botheryou once you get by the security scanners especially with a few stickers onit or better yet, in a cardboard mailer.You can use it for a walking stick without clinking, cringing orworrying about ruining the looks of the tube.You have an excuse to go to the hardware store when you build the tubesand can really say - "think how much money I've saved here!"More?Rick ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: PVC Tubes In a message dated 3/11/02 6:13:05 AM Central Standard Time,BrooksideNC@aol.com writes: gray color, one is black and one is white, the gray being very expensive and on the heavy side. Get the one that is black. Last year NC had a guides truck broken into and all the rods were stolenEXCEPT the expensive T & T rod in a $5.00 PVC tube. Something to thinkabout. You know, there is a lot to be said for "utility" tubes. I am looking atmaking nice rod tubes from various woods, and they will be very nice! but a PVC tube is both sturdy and utilitarian, also cheap! Best of all anyone can make one. A tube of the correct length ( I like the cream colored stuff or the black) a cap for each end and Voy-LAA! Rod tube! Cram a piece of carpet padding in the end of the tube or glue it to the end caps (on the INSIDEdummies!) for protection and you have a perfect rod case that is impervious to the elements. I added a couple of split rings (like key chain rings) of about 1 inch diameter to mine by wrapping filiment tape around the case and through the split rings (D rings would work even better, but they are about $1 each, while I have oodles of split rings laying around the house) andusing a strap with a snap on each end as a carrying strap.Ugly, but waterresistant, functional and you can even use it as a walking stick! Or something to fend off bears with! Or if youwish, open the other end as well, make a mouthpiece from wax or something and make it into aDigeredoo!"Brrruuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" mark visit Wood Art Custom Designs http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html Hand crafted items made to order! from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Mon Mar 11 16:23:00 2002 g2BMMw829070 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:22:58 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:01:24 -0600 rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Dimension increases and stiffness I have read all the posts on this thread, and I think that we are allmissing one critical point. The stiffness of a beam is not only due to theMOE of the material. It is also highly dependent on the moment of inertia.Now the moment of inertia has everything to do with the geometry of thebeam, and particularly the OD. The farther the power fibers are from theneutral centerline, the more stiffness they will contribute to the beam.Fibers near the center of the beam contribute almost nothing to thestiffness of the section. Don Phillips book provides excellent treatementof this topic. Let's think about a synthetic rod for a second. Let's say you could use onegram of material in one inch of length. You could choose to make a solidrod of the material, and say its OD is .086". The stiffness of the sectionwould be X. Then you could use that same gram of material over a 1" hollowsection, with an OD of .125" and ID of .090". The moment of interia wouldbe greater on the hollow tube than it would be on the solid rod, becausemore fibers are at a greater distance from the centerline. But you used theexact same amount of material in each case. Is this significant? Does it pertain to bamboo construction? I believe so.If we are consistently building our rods over by .006 or .008", guess wherethat additional fiber is located? Not in the center of the rod section.The most dense power fibers are being placed further from the centerline --kinda a double-whammy since the raw material we use is not consistent inelasticity, even across it's own cross-section! I could easily see how arod could jump a line or line-and-a-half by planing it to half- dimension,and then not worrying about the final measurements after glue-up. Now, Imight like this rod even better than the original, since I like faster rodsin general. But like Harry said, let's not fool ourselves and call it acopy of the original taper. It will have a different character. Even ifyou used a glue that matched the MOE of the raw cane exactly. But I am a bamboo-making virgin, still, since I have not even test cast thisfirst rod....... : ( I feel bad now, M-D, because I am talking about theory, and it may not haveanything to any one individual's own experience. Perception is reality.Best regards, y'all -- TAM-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to dimensionand glue. Some even say that the glue line does not add to the overalldimension. I have not found the same thing. I find that Using epon I do getan increase due to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have not been willingto reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet thateach glue going to add a little more or less to the specs. Glue alsodecreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring rods several years old itis almost impossible to know how much the glue line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way they areright on mark with the numbers after glue up. But in my mind if your glueis adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this is going tochange the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to measure .003" overthe original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane. And do any of us knowthe MOE of each glue or how .001" is going to effect the function of therod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action for theline weight I expected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes to puton a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that actually what you want? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:41 AMSubject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the finished blankdue to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to be somechange from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from rextutor@yahoo.com Mon Mar 11 16:53:48 2002 g2BMrl801057 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:53:47 - 11 Mar 2002 14:53:41 PST Subject: Re: Damn, It's good to use PVC! rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I like PVC too but my wife wouldn't let me take mineto Ireland . She said it looked too much like a pipebomb and she didn;t want an intimate search. I dohave that IRA look , though. --- Rick Crenshaw wrote: Damn, it's good to use PVC...You can lash the PVC tubes to your pontoon boatand you won't even careif the oars scrape them.You can lay it in the bottom of a drift boat andnot care what steps onit.You can find it easier in the dark (vs. wood,black, brown or darkcolored tubes).You can cut it with ratcheted anvil tool inabout 30 seconds.You can make a new one in one minute if youscrew one up.They don't rust, oxidize, or corrode.You don't mind hitting it with a wrench when thetop gets stuck.You can let 'em roll around in the trunk andthey don't clink or makemuch noise.The airlines think they are important plans orpapers and rarely botheryou once you get by the security scanners especiallywith a few stickers onit or better yet, in a cardboard mailer.You can use it for a walking stick withoutclinking, cringing orworrying about ruining the looks of the tube.You have an excuse to go to the hardware storewhen you build the tubesand can really say - "think how much money I'vesaved here!"More?Rick ----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 7:13 AMSubject: Re: PVC Tubes In a message dated 3/11/02 6:13:05 AM Central Standard Time, BrooksideNC@aol.com writes: types of PVC. One is a gray color, one is black and one is white, the gray being very expensiveand on the heavy side. Get the one that is black. Last year NC had a guides truck broken into and all the rods were stolen EXCEPT the expensive T & T rod in a $5.00 PVC tube. Something to think about. You know, there is a lot to be said for "utility" tubes. I am looking at making nice rod tubes from various woods, and they will be very nice! buta PVC tube is both sturdy and utilitarian, also cheap! Best of all anyonecan make one. A tube of the correct length ( I like the cream colored stuffor the black) a cap for each end and Voy-LAA! Rod tube! Cram a piece ofcarpet padding in the end of the tube or glue it to the end caps (on the INSIDE dummies!) for protection and you have a perfect rod case that isimpervious to the elements. I added a couple of split rings (like key chain rings)of about 1 inch diameter to mine by wrapping filiment tape around the caseand through the split rings (D rings would work even better, but they areabout $1 each, while I have oodles of split rings laying around the house) and using a strap with a snap on each end as a carrying strap. Ugly, but waterresistant, functional and you can even use it as awalking stick! Or something to fend off bears with! Or if youwish, open theother end as well, make a mouthpiece from wax or something and make it into a Digeredoo!"Brrruuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" mark visit Wood Art Custom Designs http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html Hand crafted items made to order! __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Mon Mar 11 17:01:14 2002 g2BN1E801580 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:01:14 -0600 (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:01:07 -0600 (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:45:56 -0600 Subject: RE: Dimension, another semi-obvious point Forgot to finish that last thought, sorry. The effect of increasing theflat- to-flat measurement becomes much more significant toward the tip endofthe rod. That is where it has the greatest percent increase on the momentof inertia, thus the stiffness. If you are over by .008 on the tip, it willhave a much greater impact on the character of the rod than if you are over say it anyway just to complete my line of reasoning below.... : ) TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Dimension increases and stiffness I have read all the posts on this thread, and I think that we are allmissing one critical point. The stiffness of a beam is not only due to theMOE of the material. It is also highly dependent on the moment of inertia.(snip) from rextutor@yahoo.com Mon Mar 11 17:02:56 2002 g2BN2u801792 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:02:56 -0600 11 Mar 2002 15:02:55 PST Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ "Brian D. Creek" ,Rich Jezioro , rmoon@ida.net, iank@ts.co.nz If the bathtub was over 10 miles wide , I'd buy it.Sorry, I know it's hard to accept urban myths aren'ttrue. There is no scientific basis for it. --- Jill and Tom Ausfeld wrote: But, the bathtub, they drain differently....tom----- Original Message ----- From: Rex Tutor ; RichJezioro ; ; Cc: Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 2:42 PMSubject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ The direction that a toilet flushes is determined by the direction the water jets are pointed. The toilet direction in the southern hemisphere is a myth.Don't believe me http://www.discovery.com/area/skinnyon/skinnyon970523/skinny1.html seen it and flushed it , too. --- Tony Young wrote: Could be but it had me until I tried it.I can remember reading an ongoing debate between two astronomers in a listserv I signed up to when I first got hooked up to the internet back beforeit was as popular as it now is about this verything.Basically one was adamant for and the othernaturally against. I veryfoolishly (because I was a mere mental midget among giants) asked why notjust observe the phenomenon them selves.The response I got back from both of theminterestingly was fieldobservation alone was not enough especially when it didn't agree with theory.Make of it what you will. Tony At 12:26 PM 3/11/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: cheap special effect basins, no doubt. Ni! Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 10:20 PMSubject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ I hate to be the one to kill an urban myth but no, they drain the same way. I took special notice of the direction of spin before leaving. I was most disappointed.Funny thing though. I saw an episode of Michael Pallin's (Monty Python) Pole To Pole and when he was on the equator at possibly Victoria Falls in Africa there were two wash basins one on either side of the equator separated by just a foot or two. There was no plumbing beneath the basins so there could be no simulated effect.He plugged the basins and filled them with water then pulled the plugs and the water did indeed drain in opposite directions. I have no answer. Tony At 04:12 PM 3/9/02 -0600, Rich Jezioro wrote: I wonder if those drains spinning in the opposite direction can throw one's orientation, hence balance off. If so, with some libation, it might lead to a hazardous situation. Tony, did you find that effect you up here?Rich Jezioro At 02:53 PM 3/9/2002, Ralph W. Moon wrote: IanPlease tell me he didn' t do it again. You have to be kidding. Ralph Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending too great a time yarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least trying too) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time to spend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the Great Southern in NZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ === message truncated === __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from wiljette@nmia.com Mon Mar 11 17:19:44 2002 g2BNJh802802 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:19:43 - by uid 101 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.0.70/v4188. . Clear:0.Processed in 1.475385 secs); 11 Mar 2002 23:19:36 -0000 Subject: Re: furled leader question site; www.blueskyfly.com. I just purchased two, 5'-9" medium weight =furled leaders for six to eight weight lines for $26.19 including =shipping. Looks like a quality product that will produce an eight to =twelve foot leader by adding ordinary tippet material. No financial =interest etc. Will purchased two, 5'-9" medium weight furled leaders for six to eight = No financial interest etc. Will from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 11 17:58:03 2002 g2BNw2804504 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:58:02 -0600 helo=0zlaw.ix.netcom.com) id 16kZfw-0000yE-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:57:57 -0500 Subject: Pens -- off topic --=====================_42271329==_.ALT I have found a very unique maker of good writing instruments. Rotring, of Germany, makes a set hexagonal fountain pens, roller-balls, ball-points, and mechanical pencil in either an aluminum or flat black finish. I found them from a company called Levengers who specialize in fine writing instruments. Levenger's has a website but Rotring doesn't seem to have one of their own. A search shows they are sold elsewhere. No financial interest but thought it would be appropriate to pass along...... f _________________________Fred Bohls3519 Ada DriveMechanicsburg, PA 17050-2213 Home: (717) 732-5050Fax: (717) 732-2414 MAKE IT A GREAT DAY !!!!!! --=====================_42271329==_.ALT Rotring, of Germany, makes a set hexagonal fountain pens, roller-balls,ball- points, and mechanical pencil in either an aluminum or flat black doesn't seem to have one of their own. A search shows they are soldelsewhere.No financial interest but thought it would be appropriate to passalong...... _________________________FredBohls3519 Ada DriveMechanicsburg, PA 17050-2213 MAKEIT A GREAT DAY !!!!!! --=====================_42271329==_.ALT-- from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Mon Mar 11 19:51:07 2002 g2C1p2807908 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:51:06 -0600 0000 Subject: Re: Pens -- off topic Ahhh, another pen addict. I have had a Rotring 600 fountain pen for =several years and enjoy it very much. Of course I also have a Waterman, =the Levenger "Empire", a Minka (nice for the price), and several =utility fountain pens. Like fine tools, they are a pleasure to use. Rotring, by the way means "red ring" in German according to their =website - which I can't locate right now. Also www.discountpens.com, = KurtNixa, MO-----Original Message-----From: Fred Bohls Subject: Pens -- off topic I have found a very unique maker of good writing instruments. =Rotring, of Germany, makes a set hexagonal fountain pens, roller-balls, =ball-points, and mechanical pencil in either an aluminum or flat black =finish. I found them from a company called Levengers who specialize in =fine writing instruments. Levenger's has a website but Rotring doesn't =seem to have one of their own. A search shows they are sold elsewhere. No financial interest but thought it would be appropriate to pass =along...... f _________________________Fred Bohls3519 Ada DriveMechanicsburg, PA 17050-2213 Home: (717) 732-5050Fax: (717) 732-2414 MAKE IT A GREAT DAY !!!!!! = they are a pleasure to use. Rotring, by the way means "red ring" in = www.discountpens.com, andwww.pencity.com have better = KurtNixa, MO -----Original = RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu = Monday, March 11, 2002 6:04 PMSubject: Pens -- topicI have found a very unique maker of good = roller-balls, ball-points, and mechanical pencil in either an = Rotring doesn't seem to have one of their own. A search shows they = elsewhere.No financial interest but thought it would be = = ;f_________________________Fred Bohls3519 !!!!!! from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 11 19:56:28 2002 g2C1uS808248 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:56:28 - ;Tue, 12 Mar 2002 01:56:20 +0000 "Rodmakers List-serv" Subject: Re: Dimension increases Harry, So to repeat John Channer's observations about classic rods not hitting =the numbers exactly on every flat. If you want to "hit the numbers" then =you must copy the deviations from flat to flat, rather than averaging. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 8:20 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases had more than one on hand at any time. I still don't own one. Every =time I finish one, someone buys it. Working on one for myself now, and = Were they pretty doggone close? Yes, they were. All of them = Since a few thousandths don't matter, I'd suggest we all go back =to Vernier calipers. Let's quit all this worrying about thousandths, =and go back to measuring in 64ths. Heck, let's quit swapping tapers =altogether, and just eyeball things to make sure the rods are a little =bigger at the bottom end than at the top. While we're at it, let's stop =worrying about how crooked they are. After all, a crooked rod is gonna =cast okay isn't it? And one more thing... from now on, let's just tell =folks that we like dust in our finishes. Maybe we can even come up with =some sort of pseudo-scientific explanation about how dust bumps increase = Just funning ya, Steve. Yes, there is a point of diminishing =returns in worrying about the consistency of our rods. But most of us =haven't reached it yet. Maybe two or three out of the 500 or so =list-members have made it there, but not me. If we're trying to =re-create the low-end Montagues, then GG is our hero. But if we're =making modern versions of the great rods of the past, well, I'm gonna = Harry, How did the first 18 P101's cast. Did you end up with 18 = a few thousandths is going to make a great deal of difference in the =feel of two rods, at least not to 99 percent of the people who will cast =it. Harry, So to repeat John Channer's = classic rods not hitting the numbers exactly on every flat. If you want = the numbers" then you must copy the deviations from flat to flat, rather = averaging. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO ----- Original Message ----- Harry= = Cc: Adam Vigil ; Rodmakers List-serv = Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Dimension =increases swapping tapers altogether, and just eyeball things to make sure the = come up with some sort of pseudo-scientific explanation about how dust = increase the aerodynamic effectiveness of the rod in NASA wind = diminishing returns in worrying about the consistency of our = making modern versions of the great rods of the past, well, I'm gonna = difference in the feel of two rods, at least not to 99 percent of = who will cast it. from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Mar 11 20:46:37 2002 g2C2kb809802 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 20:46:37 - for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:46:26 - Subject: Grand experiment. I finally got a chance to read John's article, and now break my self imposed silence on the subject. Old hands on the list know where I am coming from, but for the benefit of newcomers, let me qualify this by saying I love cane rods because of the way they cast. I love them fast, medium, and slow, and have seriously tried to learn how to cast them all. My emphasis is on distance casting, but not at the sacrifice of comfort and "feel". I was, therefore, happy to participate in the experiment, and although the methodology was not as scientific as it might have been with a "pentagon" type budget, there are some conclusions to be made. John made some in the article, and I believe his conclusions to be valid. One of the problems with the study was the limited time available to cast the rods. I cast them at the Grand gathering for a few hours, but would have needed a couple days to really compare all the rods fairly. First, let me humbly admit that I had the hubris to think that I was going to blow away all comers with the spiral rod. That didn't happen, but it was certainly in the top group in terms of distance casting, which is a different thing from fishing. As John suggests, the 5 siders were popular, and fine casters for most people. I think this is mostly a matter of technique, with most people preferring the stiff feel. The quads felt soft, but in fact cast extremely well, if the caster could adapt to the full flexing action. Not everyone can, but the quad builder can compensate by modifying the taper. What interested me, is that the quads came out lighter than the hexes. Since the components were the same, where did the weight go? It must be in the shaft somewhere, so the conversion factor didn't work out???John notes that the 3 piece rods were slower than the 2 piece rods. No suprise here, but one very notable exception was Marty Karstetter's entry.At The Grand, the maker's names were masked. I picked this rod up and saw nothing remarkable, but John accused me of casting into the next area code, and he wasn't far wrong. I badgered him into revealing the maker. Theanswer seems to be that the rod was hollow built, and the weight of the rod is in the low range for two piece rods. Therefore, the weight of the ferrules was negated, and their effect on the action must have had more to do withweight than stiffness.Others have pointed out that the experiment was not fully controlled, and that's true, but the general conclusions as expressed by John hold up, and the experiment seemed to me to be very worthwhile. from beadman@mac.com Mon Mar 11 20:47:55 2002 g2C2ls809997 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 20:47:54 - 2002)) Subject: RE: Dimension increases and stiffness At 3:54 PM -0600 , 3/11/02, Miller, Troy wrote about RE: Dimension increases and stiffness Is this significant? Does it pertain to bamboo construction? I believe so.If we are consistently building our rods over by .006 or .008", guess wherethat additional fiber is located? Not in the center of the rod section.The most dense power fibers are being placed further from the centerline --kinda a double-whammy since the raw material we use is not consistent inelasticity, even across it's own cross-section! I could easily see how arod could jump a line or line-and-a-half by planing it to half- dimension,and then not worrying about the final measurements after glue-up. Now, Imight like this rod even better than the original, since I like faster rodsin general. But like Harry said, let's not fool ourselves and call it acopy of the original taper. It will have a different character. Even ifyou used a glue that matched the MOE of the raw cane exactly. Troy's comments above got me to wondering, so I ran some numbers. I took the taper for a Sir D 4wt, and then changed the taper to a 5wt, matching the stress curves at every point, to see what the effect on the rod dimensions would be. Here's the result: Sir D, 2 piece 4wt 5wtStation Dimension Dimension Difference1 0.068 0.070 0.0025 0.070 0.074 0.00410 0.082 0.087 0.00515 0.102 0.108 0.00620 0.123 0.130 0.00725 0.137 0.145 0.00830 0.152 0.160 0.00835 0.166 0.175 0.00940 0.184 0.194 0.01045 0.206 0.216 0.01050 0.214 0.223 0.00955 0.220 0.230 0.01060 0.244 0.254 0.01065 0.258 0.268 0.01070 0.272 0.282 0.01075 0.300 0.311 0.01180 0.300 0.311 0.01185 0.300 0.311 0.011 If the rod was planed to the final dimensions for a 4wt, but no allowance was made for glue, and the glue thickness was the same as the column labeled "difference" above, then the rod would be on line size heavier. My conclusion is that a glue thickness of .005 or so would make what appears to me to be a significant difference in the final rod, varying from one line size heavier in the tip, to about a half size larger in the butt. This is not to say that the rod would cast differently, as that probably depends on the individual doing the casting more than anything else. Claude from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Mar 11 20:59:32 2002 g2C2xV810641 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 20:59:31 - Subject: Re: Old reels and grinding the feet Hi to all,The replacement feet for the Pfleuger reels were made by W.S. FrankeCustomRods of N.Conway New Hampshire. The Pfoot1 fits the 1492,1494,1495whereaethe Pfoot2 fits the larger 1495 1/2 and 1498. They fit reel seats muchbetter than the original.I have one of each still in the package. Respond off line if interested.Ray Gould----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Old reels and grinding the feet On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 BambooRods@aol.com wrote: I have recently acquired some old pflueger reels (1492, Progress 60 & 80). They were valentines presents from Cindy. Anyway, they are really nice and I hate to grind the feet down so they will fit on the reel seats. What thoughts do you all have. I just feel that it would be disrespecting of the reels to grind. Forget the 60 & 80. On the 1492, pick up a cheap Southbend or a trashedPflueger on eBay and grind that foot if necessary. Regards, BobFly Suppliesaflyshop.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Mar 11 21:06:20 2002 g2C36J811046 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:06:19 -0600 ,Rich Jezioro , rmoon@ida.net, iank@ts.co.nz Subject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ There's no way you can actually compare toilets because the US ones workso differently to the ones everybody else use but basins and baths work the same sort of way and these are what I was comparing and it is an urbanmyth. TY At 11:42 AM 3/11/02 -0800, Rex Tutor wrote: The direction that a toilet flushes is determined bythe direction the water jets are pointed. The toiletdirection in the southern hemisphere is a myth.Don't believe mehttp://www.discovery.com/area/skinnyon/skinnyon970523/skinny1.htmlseen it and flushed it , too. --- Tony Young wrote: Could be but it had me until I tried it.I can remember reading an ongoing debate between twoastronomers in a listserv I signed up to when I first got hooked up tothe internet back beforeit was as popular as it now is about this verything.Basically one was adamant for and the othernaturally against. I veryfoolishly (because I was a mere mental midget amonggiants) asked why notjust observe the phenomenon them selves.The response I got back from both of theminterestingly was fieldobservation alone was not enough especially when itdidn't agree with theory.Make of it what you will. Tony At 12:26 PM 3/11/02 -0500, Brian D. Creek wrote: cheap special effect basins, no doubt. Ni! Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 10:20 PMSubject: Re: The real Great Southern in NZ I hate to be the one to kill an urban myth but no, they drain the same way. I took special notice of the direction of spin before leaving. I was most disappointed.Funny thing though. I saw an episode of Michael Pallin's (Monty Python) Pole To Pole and when he was on the equator at possibly Victoria Falls in Africa there were two wash basins one on either side of the equator separated by just a foot or two. There was no plumbing beneath the basins so there could be no simulated effect.He plugged the basins and filled them with water then pulled the plugs and the water did indeed drain in opposite directions. I have no answer. Tony At 04:12 PM 3/9/02 -0600, Rich Jezioro wrote: I wonder if those drains spinning in the opposite direction can throw one's orientation, hence balance off. If so, with some libation, it might lead to a hazardous situation. Tony, did you find that effect you up here?Rich Jezioro At 02:53 PM 3/9/2002, Ralph W. Moon wrote: IanPlease tell me he didn' t do it again. You have to be kidding. Ralph Ian Kearney wrote: Unfortunately (or fortunately) the attendees are spending too great a time yarning, demonstrating, casting rods , catching fish (or at least trying too) , drinking,eating, attending to Bob's injuries, and generally having a good time to spend time sitting in front of a computer. from The crowd down South...:)) ----- Original Message -----From: "Tony Young" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:03 PMSubject: The real Great Southern in NZ Anybody heard anything from the people attending the Great Southern in NZ? TY /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html "How can I lose to such an idiot?"- A shout from chessmaster Aaron Nimzovich (1886-1935) /*************************************************************************/ --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at:www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from bob@downandacross.com Mon Mar 11 21:38:07 2002 g2C3c6811963 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:38:06 - 11 Mar 2002 22:38:00 -0500 Subject: RE: Grand experiment. Hi Tom:I had two thoughts regarding the quads in the Grand Experiment and yourpost. 1. If you had a quad and hex of the same dimension, the quad wouldstill be minus the pointy wings on the left and right of the shaft.http://www.ronkusse.com/quads.html says it pretty nicely with the diagramthere. Also, there is less glue in the rod. (Maybe this is negligible).2. The funny thing that I have noticed in the straight quad versions of theSir D, Driggs, and the Para 15 that I have done is that they do seemstiffer/heavier line weight than their hex counterparts, but they are stillmore full working. Sometimes, this seems slower in hand. How could a rod bestiffer and yet slower feeling at the same time? I don't know, maybe thestiffness transfers the energy back toward the handles whereas a weakerhexversion creates hinges that place the action more near the tip? They allseem more powerful but less tippy. Stiffer yet slower actioned.Am I nuts, is my drain going in the wrong direction?Best regards,Bob -----Original Message----- TSmithwick@aol.com Subject: Grand experiment.The quads felt soft, but infact castextremely well, if the caster could adapt to the full flexing action. Noteveryone can, but the quad builder can compensate by modifying the taper.What interested me, is that the quads came out lighter than thehexes. Sincethe components were the same, where did the weight go? It must be in theshaft somewhere, so the conversion factor didn't work out??? from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 11 23:20:37 2002 g2C5Ka816489 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:20:36 - (authenticated) for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:20:34 -0800 Subject: Re: Dimension increases --------------38E4617A91D5F1B7EF49F76F Steve, Don't worry, I make adjustments to insure thatall three flat-to-flat measurements match theoriginal. I even try to keep the largestmeasurements in the same alignment. And if you'll buy that, well, I've got somenice mountain stream frontage land in SouthwestLouisiana that I want to sell you. [:-)] I will say this... most proficient handplaners are at least as consistent with theirmeasurements at any given point, if not more so,than the old Masters who used milling machines ofone sort or another. At least that's been myexperience as I measured out some old classicrods. Stubbornly,Harry Steve Trauthwein wrote: So to repeat John Channer's observations aboutclassic rods not hitting the numbers exactly onevery flat. If you want to "hit the numbers"then you must copy the deviations from flat toflat, rather than averaging -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------38E4617A91D5F1B7EF49F76F Steve, keep the largest measurements in the same alignment. mountain stream frontage land in Southwest Louisiana that I want to sell at least as consistent with their measurements at any given point, if notmore so, than the old Masters who used milling machines of one sort or old classic rods. Steve Trauthwein wrote:So to repeat JohnChanner's observations about classic rods not hitting the numbers exactlyon every flat. If you want to "hit the numbers" then you must copy thedeviations from flat to flat, rather thanaveraging-- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------38E4617A91D5F1B7EF49F76F-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Mar 11 23:38:48 2002 g2C5cl817052 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:38:47 - (authenticated) for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:38:45 -0800 Subject: It's the simple things... Don Schneider Simple things, those are the ones that mostoften amaze me. I can understand Garrison'smath. Managed a grasp of the basics the firsttime through. Troy Miller, Art Port, and ClaudeFreaner are good enough with the figures to helpme understand most of the complex stuff withoutstruggling to hard. John Zimny's explanations ofglue and varnish, they just make sense to me. But some of the simplest things confound me.Case in point: Don Schneider's excellent articleon making wooden forms in the last issue ofPowerFibers included drawings of two simple tools,a "file plane", and a "lathe bit plane." Don sentme one of the file planes. It is a perfectlysimple, but absolutely elegant tool. Mine iscurrently loaned out to a math whiz in Texas, butshould be home in a day or two. In all my planing form woes from a few daysback, I decided I needed one of the "lathe bitplanes." Studying the drawings didn't help much -not that the drawings aren't excellent (they are)-- it's just that I am, shall we say, "graphicallychallenged". I dropped out of engineering schoolafter one semester. Made A's in Physics,Trigonometry, and Chemistry... but struggled tomake a "D" in Engineering Graphics 101. I am"graphically challenged". Show me a top view of abolt, and ask me to draw a side view... I'll drawthe nut. So back to the lathe bit plane. I did whatall preachers do... I begged. Asked Don for moreinformation... Perhaps some measurements, or aphotograph or two. What does Don do? He goes outin his shop, and makes a lathe bit plane for me,mails it Priority Mail, and refuses to takepayment. Simple things absolutely amaze me.Many, many thanks Don. And the lathe bit plane? It's brilliant inits simplicity. Now that I look at it, thedrawings make perfect sense. Spent an hourre-working my forms tonight. As far as I cantell, they came out perfect. Tomorrow night I'llplane a few strips and see if my efforts have paidoff. So you wanna borrow the lathe bit plane?Great! I'll be glad to loan it to anyone. Yousend me $100, and I'll send you the lathe bitplane. When you return it, I'll return your$100. And I'll pay the postage both ways.Needless to say, I like this little tool and don'twant to let it get away from me. Thanks Don,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from KyleDruey@aol.com Tue Mar 12 00:00:28 2002 g2C60R817819 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 00:00:27 - for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 01:00:15 - Subject: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed Hi Folks, Many thanks to all who have helped me with taper suggestions. I've got some great ideas from this list and am working on building the next 6 rods to compare tapers so I can develop a feel for rod action. I've settled on these tapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wt rods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613, Granger7'6", Leonard 39DH, Garrison 206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted to compare rods with different actions ranging from fast, medium fast, to medium, and all of these rods seem to fit this. This is where I need some help. I want to start with the Granger 7'6", but the tapers I have found in the Howell book and the archives don't line up too well with one another. I sure would appreciate some folks providing me with this taper from rods they have either built or cast, and have liked it. Thanks for your help! Kyle from ajthramer@hotmail.com Tue Mar 12 01:57:22 2002 g2C7vL821931 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 01:57:21 - Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:57:15 -0800 Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:57:15 GMT Subject: Re: Grand experiment. FILETIME=[866F00A0:01C1C99B] This brings up a point concerning three pc rods that I have talked about before. I don't think that a 2 or a 3 pc rod has to feel any different from each other. An ignored variable is I think the ferrules. In a properly designed 3 pc rod the ferrules have to be designed in with enough cane to carry the ferrule, especially in the mid for the tip ferrule and the ferrule drop is critical for a 3 pc rod. Almost all of the classic 3 pc rods used a leonard style ferrule which is both longer and lighter than a standard length swiss ferrule. By using a truncated ferrule on a 3 pc rod you have ignored one of the critical design aspects of a classic 3 pc taper by eliminating the 'stiff' spot that the old makers were very much aware of. In addition most of the tapers posted are set up for hand planing in a garrison style format. A notable exception is Howells book that clearly shows the drop over the ferrule. By taking into account these remaing parts of the puzzle I think that the mysteries of 3 pc design will fall to the experimenters of the list. In addition it has been my experience that 3 pc rods are most easily designed with the computer between the ears ratherthan the mechanical one on the desk.A.J. John notes that the 3 piece rods were slower than the 2 piece rods. Nosuprise here, but one very notable exception was Marty Karstetter's entry. AtThe Grand, the maker's names were masked. I picked this rod up and sawnothing remarkable, but John accused me of casting into the next areacode,and he wasn't far wrong. I badgered him into revealing the maker. The answerseems to be that the rod was hollow built, and the weight of the rod is inthe low range for two piece rods. Therefore, the weight of the ferrules wasnegated, and their effect on the action must have had more to do with weightthan stiffness.Others have pointed out that the experiment was not fully controlled, andthat's true, but the general conclusions as expressed by John hold up, andthe experiment seemed to me to be very worthwhile. _________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Mar 12 02:29:20 2002 g2C8TI823626 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 02:29:18 - rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Grand experiment. AJ,this is a bit like Space Odyssey 2000 in that I was with you until the end and lost it all at the final barrier.What is the bottom line for ferrules in 3 piece rods in you opinion? A) Std and trunc SwissB) Std and std SwissC) Leonard through out. Tony At 07:57 AM 3/12/02 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: This brings up a point concerning three pc rods that I have talked about before. I don't think that a 2 or a 3 pc rod has to feel any different from each other. An ignored variable is I think the ferrules. In a properly designed 3 pc rod the ferrules have to be designed in with enough cane to carry the ferrule, especially in the mid for the tip ferrule and the ferrule drop is critical for a 3 pc rod. Almost all of the classic 3 pc rods used a leonard style ferrule which is both longer and lighter than a standard length swiss ferrule. By using a truncated ferrule on a 3 pc rod you have ignored one of the critical design aspects of a classic 3 pc taper by eliminating the 'stiff' spot that the old makers were very much aware of. In addition most of the tapers posted are set up for hand planing in a garrison style format. A notable exception is Howells book that clearly shows the drop over the ferrule. By taking into account these remaing parts of the puzzle I think that the mysteries of 3 pc design will fall to the experimenters of the list. In addition it has been my experience that 3 pc rods are most easily designed with the computer between the ears rather than the mechanical one on the desk.A.J. John notes that the 3 piece rods were slower than the 2 piece rods. Nosuprise here, but one very notable exception was Marty Karstetter'sentry. AtThe Grand, the maker's names were masked. I picked this rod up and sawnothing remarkable, but John accused me of casting into the next areacode,and he wasn't far wrong. I badgered him into revealing the maker. Theanswerseems to be that the rod was hollow built, and the weight of the rod is inthe low range for two piece rods. Therefore, the weight of the ferruleswasnegated, and their effect on the action must have had more to do withweightthan stiffness.Others have pointed out that the experiment was not fully controlled, andthat's true, but the general conclusions as expressed by John hold up, andthe experiment seemed to me to be very worthwhile. _________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html Christmas Gift Tips Avoid at any cost Christmas crackers with the label: Made in Afghanistan /*************************************************************************/ from petermckean@netspace.net.au Tue Mar 12 04:38:44 2002 g2CAcg825451 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 04:38:43 - g2CAcTS20297; Subject: Re: PVC Tubes Tony Talking about ruining finishes, I inadvertently mixed some polyurethanevarnish with some #10 Spraying Thinners for finishing wraps. After about 24 hours the mixture metamorphosed into somethingunspeakable;and the worst thing was that so did the bit I had already applied to thewraps. Oh, well, the blank is probably a bit better for the extra rubdown, polish,and rebinding. Please do not do this stupid thing. Peter from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Tue Mar 12 04:39:38 2002 g2CAdb825519 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 04:39:37 - ;Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:39:30 +0000 Subject: Re: Dimension increases Harry, I've been looking for some frontage property... LOL, Steve Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 11:20 PMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Don't worry, I make adjustments to insure that all three =flat-to-flat measurements match the original. I even try to keep the = And if you'll buy that, well, I've got some nice mountain stream = I will say this... most proficient hand planers are at least as =consistent with their measurements at any given point, if not more so, =than the old Masters who used milling machines of one sort or another. =At least that's been my experience as I measured out some old classic = So to repeat John Channer's observations about classic rods not =hitting the numbers exactly on every flat. If you want to "hit the =numbers" then you must copy the deviations from flat to flat, rather =than averaging Harry, property... LOL, Steve ----- Original Message ----- Harry= Cc: Rodmakers List-serv = Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 = PMSubject: Re: Dimension =increases mountain stream frontage land in Southwest Louisiana that I want to = least as consistent with their measurements at any given point, if not = Soto = Channer's observations about classic rods not hitting the numbers = from channer@frontier.net Tue Mar 12 06:51:39 2002 g2CCpc827575 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:51:38 - for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 05:51:35 - Subject: Re: Grand experiment. A.J.;That's the one beef I have with the computer programs, they can't dealwith a drop over the ferrule. I just figure that any taper that showsany jog in the graph at a ferrule has a drop, which would be about 90%of the classics. Garrison is one of the very few who's tapers don'tdrop, and the Young's don't really look like they have a drop,either.I've only seen one Leonard and didn't think to measure the ferrules,were they made with males 1 size smaller or 2 sizes smaller than thefemale? And does the female have the same bore all the way thru, or isthe sleeve for the male bored out to allow the use of tubing with justone size difference?john Allen Thramer wrote: This brings up a point concerning three pc rods that I have talked aboutbefore. I don't think that a 2 or a 3 pc rod has to feel any different fromeach other. An ignored variable is I think the ferrules. In a properlydesigned 3 pc rod the ferrules have to be designed in with enough cane tocarry the ferrule, especially in the mid for the tip ferrule and the ferruledrop is critical for a 3 pc rod. Almost all of the classic 3 pc rods used aleonard style ferrule which is both longer and lighter than a standardlength swiss ferrule. By using a truncated ferrule on a 3 pc rod you haveignored one of the critical design aspects of a classic 3 pc taper byeliminating the 'stiff' spot that the old makers were very much aware of. Inaddition most of the tapers posted are set up for hand planing in agarrisonstyle format. A notable exception is Howells book that clearly shows thedrop over the ferrule. By taking into account these remaing parts of thepuzzle I think that the mysteries of 3 pc design will fall to theexperimenters of the list. In addition it has been my experience that 3 pcrods are most easily designed with the computer between the ears ratherthanthe mechanical one on the desk. from dpeaston@wzrd.com Tue Mar 12 06:57:47 2002 g2CCvk827880 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:57:46 - rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Grand experiment. A.J.'s point was brought home to me when I ferruled an Edwards 3pc 7.5 ft blank last week. It became clear to me that no matter how I juggled the ferrule positions, the drops at the ferrules were way too large to fit super Z ferrules. I used CSE Leonard style ferrules 9/64 and 15/64. To my eye, these ferrules have the right look for a 3pc rod. They are beautiful but come at a price. Also, cutting the ferrule stations for the males is time consuming without a lathe, but in the end everything worked out, and the final taper looks good. I want to do a 3pc Granger taper in the future and I plan to use Leonard style for it -Doug At 07:57 AM 3/12/2002 +0000, Allen Thramer wrote: This brings up a point concerning three pc rods that I have talked about before. I don't think that a 2 or a 3 pc rod has to feel any different from each other. An ignored variable is I think the ferrules. In a properly designed 3 pc rod the ferrules have to be designed in with enough cane to carry the ferrule, especially in the mid for the tip ferrule and the ferrule drop is critical for a 3 pc rod. Almost all of the classic 3 pc rods used a leonard style ferrule which is both longer and lighter than a standard length swiss ferrule. By using a truncated ferrule on a 3 pc rod you have ignored one of the critical design aspects of a classic 3 pc taper by eliminating the 'stiff' spot that the old makers were very much aware of. In addition most of the tapers posted are set up for hand planing in a garrison style format. A notable exception is Howells book that clearly shows the drop over the ferrule. By taking into account these remaing parts of the puzzle I think that the mysteries of 3 pc design will fall to the experimenters of the list. In addition it has been my experience that 3 pc rods are most easily designed with the computer between the ears rather than the mechanical one on the desk.A.J. John notes that the 3 piece rods were slower than the 2 piece rods. Nosuprise here, but one very notable exception was Marty Karstetter'sentry. AtThe Grand, the maker's names were masked. I picked this rod up and sawnothing remarkable, but John accused me of casting into the next areacode,and he wasn't far wrong. I badgered him into revealing the maker. Theanswerseems to be that the rod was hollow built, and the weight of the rod is inthe low range for two piece rods. Therefore, the weight of the ferruleswasnegated, and their effect on the action must have had more to do withweightthan stiffness.Others have pointed out that the experiment was not fully controlled, andthat's true, but the general conclusions as expressed by John hold up, andthe experiment seemed to me to be very worthwhile. _________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com from ttalsma@macatawa.org Tue Mar 12 07:23:34 2002 g2CDNX828633 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:23:33 - id ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:16:11 -0500 id F563CKTR; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:16:09 -0500 Subject: Re: It's the simple things... Don Schneider Dittos here Harry. Don did the same for me. Just up and sent me histools (Lathe Bit Plane & File Plane). If I remember right, he said,"Just consider it an early Christmas present." Talk about beinggeeked! OH MAN! I'm finding out more and more what a great group ofindividuals this is. I've got one person already in line for the tools, I just have to getthem for him. If anyone else is interested, let me know. Although, ifyou're going to use the File Plane, you're going to have to glue thefile back on. I got it a little too hot and the glue let go. Harry Boyd wrote: Simple things, those are the ones that mostoften amaze me. I can understand Garrison'smath. Managed a grasp of the basics the firsttime through. Troy Miller, Art Port, and ClaudeFreaner are good enough with the figures to helpme understand most of the complex stuff withoutstruggling to hard. John Zimny's explanations ofglue and varnish, they just make sense to me. But some of the simplest things confound me.Case in point: Don Schneider's excellent articleon making wooden forms in the last issue ofPowerFibers included drawings of two simple tools,a "file plane", and a "lathe bit plane." Don sentme one of the file planes. It is a perfectlysimple, but absolutely elegant tool. Mine iscurrently loaned out to a math whiz in Texas, butshould be home in a day or two. In all my planing form woes from a few daysback, I decided I needed one of the "lathe bitplanes." Studying the drawings didn't help much -not that the drawings aren't excellent (they are)-- it's just that I am, shall we say, "graphicallychallenged". I dropped out of engineering schoolafter one semester. Made A's in Physics,Trigonometry, and Chemistry... but struggled tomake a "D" in Engineering Graphics 101. I am"graphically challenged". Show me a top view of abolt, and ask me to draw a side view... I'll drawthe nut. So back to the lathe bit plane. I did whatall preachers do... I begged. Asked Don for moreinformation... Perhaps some measurements, or aphotograph or two. What does Don do? He goes outin his shop, and makes a lathe bit plane for me,mails it Priority Mail, and refuses to takepayment. Simple things absolutely amaze me.Many, many thanks Don. And the lathe bit plane? It's brilliant inits simplicity. Now that I look at it, thedrawings make perfect sense. Spent an hourre-working my forms tonight. As far as I cantell, they came out perfect. Tomorrow night I'llplane a few strips and see if my efforts have paidoff. So you wanna borrow the lathe bit plane?Great! I'll be glad to loan it to anyone. Yousend me $100, and I'll send you the lathe bitplane. When you return it, I'll return your$100. And I'll pay the postage both ways.Needless to say, I like this little tool and don'twant to let it get away from me. Thanks Don,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from homes-sold@attbi.com Tue Mar 12 07:35:24 2002 Received: from g2CDZN828987 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127- ; Tue, 12Mar 2002 13:35:17 +0000 Message-ID: Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Harry, You are welcome.Thanks for the kind words, although I'm not quite certain how to take the"simple" part. Actually there are two articles that mention the "File Plane"and the "Lathe Bit Plane". One is an article "Forms Tune-up" in last summers"Power Fibers". The other is on Todd Talsma's Tip Site. Let me tell you why Iwrote the articles: When I first started out in this wacky hobby I naturallyneeded to make some forms, so I went to Tom Penrose's Site and tried tofollowed his excellent instructions. When I got to the point of having theforms ready for cutting the groove I panicked. Wanting a slope of .001"/inchI didn't see how I could possibly setup and cut the groove accurately usingwhat I call ".577 Math", close but no cigar and a lot of room for error. Coming from a back ground of "Close only counts in Horseshoes, Hand Grenades andDrive-in Movies" there had to be a better way. Using the 60Ÿ point eliminatesthe .577 Math. Using the File Plane eliminates having to readjust the formsbetween cuts. Using the Lathe Bit Plane keeps the bit centered in the groove.I was a happy camper, it's an easy process and my forms have performedwell for years. Then there is Harry........ Even though he possess divinepowers, even the divine one needs help occasionally. Glad to help my friend.Sorry for the band width but I think there is more than a few out there thatthis info can help and that was the reason for the articles. Happy St Pat'sDay (early) Don Tom Penrose's Sitehttp://www.thomaspenrose.com/bamboo.htm Making Steel Planing Forms Bob Maulucci's Power Fibers online magazinehttp://www.powerfibers.com/Article: "Forms Tune-up" Todd Talsma's Bamboo Rodmaking Tip Site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/Articles "Wood Planing Forms" ----- Original Message ----- Subject: It's the simple things... Don Schneider Simple things, those are the ones that mostoften amaze me. I can understand Garrison'smath. Managed a grasp of the basics the firsttime through. Troy Miller, Art Port, and ClaudeFreaner are good enough with the figures to helpme understand most of the complex stuff withoutstruggling to hard. John Zimny's explanations ofglue and varnish, they just make sense to me. But some of the simplest things confound me.Case in point: Don Schneider's excellent articleon making wooden forms in the last issue ofPowerFibers included drawings of two simple tools,a "file plane", and a "lathe bit plane." Don sentme one of the file planes. It is a perfectlysimple, but absolutely elegant tool. Mine iscurrently loaned out to a math whiz in Texas, butshould be home in a day or two. In all my planing form woes from a few daysback, I decided I needed one of the "lathe bitplanes." Studying the drawings didn't help much -not that the drawings aren't excellent (they are)-- it's just that I am, shall we say, "graphicallychallenged". I dropped out of engineering schoolafter one semester. Made A's in Physics,Trigonometry, and Chemistry... but struggled tomake a "D" in Engineering Graphics 101. I am"graphically challenged". Show me a top view of abolt, and ask me to draw a side view... I'll drawthe nut. So back to the lathe bit plane. I did whatall preachers do... I begged. Asked Don for moreinformation... Perhaps some measurements, or aphotograph or two. What does Don do? He goes outin his shop, and makes a lathe bit plane for me,mails it Priority Mail, and refuses to takepayment. Simple things absolutely amaze me.Many, many thanks Don. And the lathe bit plane? It's brilliant inits simplicity. Now that I look at it, thedrawings make perfect sense. Spent an hourre-working my forms tonight. As far as I cantell, they came out perfect. Tomorrow night I'llplane a few strips and see if my efforts have paidoff. So you wanna borrow the lathe bit plane?Great! I'll be glad to loan it to anyone. Yousend me $100, and I'll send you the lathe bitplane. When you return it, I'll return your$100. And I'll pay the postage both ways.Needless to say, I like this little tool and don'twant to let it get away from me. Thanks Don,Harry -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from mrc@mars.plala.or.jp Tue Mar 12 08:04:42 2002 g2CE4e829845 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:04:40 - id g2CE4Yh02137 for ; Tue, 12 Mar2002 23:04:34 +0900 (JST) id XAA14512; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:04:33 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: The diameter of reel foot curve Hi friends, I gladly report to the list as some additional mesurements were informed tome on the diameter of reel foot. The most interesting input is from Gary Heidt of NAFTMA Standard asfollows; The NAFTA (North American Fly Tackle Trade Association) standard is R .350" O .020" (standard) R .435" O .015" (spey). Gary Heidt Larry Blan gave me additional actual measurementa on Orvis reels as follows; Reel maker/Model Line Wt. Diameter Diameter Input from Remarks(mm) (inch)---------------- ------ -------- ------ --------- ----------------------------Orvis/Vattenkill #3-8 19.5 0.768 Max SatohOrvis /Presentation #1-5 19.2 0.755 Larry Blan Mid80's, mfg'ed for Orvis by STHOrvis/Presentation EXR #1-5 19.2 0.755 Larry Blan Mid 80's,mfg'ed for Orvis by STHRoss/ #4 19.5 0.768 Max SatohTrutta/ #3 19.5 0.768 Max SatohHardy/Marquis Silver Face #4 18.0 0.709 Max Satoh Thanks, Gary and Larry. Max Hi friends, Have some of you measured the diameter of your reel foot?Yes, it is the curve which is turned on the back side of reel foot. If not, would you please measure and report it on the list? I am gathering the measurements of various reel's foot for a pupose. I had been using a router bit of woodline (wl1091) and reshaped the bradeinto V~V shape by myself. But this bit has a smaller diameter of bead.A router bit with smaller bead diameter will turn the surface of real seatfiller to a smaller diameter. Thus, the reel would slip right and left on the filler while fishing eventhough it is fixed withreel seat ring. It is appreciated if you could measure your reel foot and post themeasurement, withreal maker, model and diameter value. To measure the diameter of reel foot, 1. Prepare a round stock bar (wood or metal) with various diameters, from0.6" to 0.8".2. Place reel foot on it.3. Report the most fit diameter with your reel. The reels which I have are as follows; (please do not confuse betweendiameter and R, R is half a diameter) Maker Size/Model diameter (2x R)------------ ----------- --------- -----Orvis: all sizes 19.5mm (0.768")Ross: #4 19.5mm (0.768")Trutta: #3 19.5mm (0.768")Hardy Marquis Silver face 18.0mm (0.708") Thanks, Max from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Mar 12 08:04:49 2002 g2CE4n829852 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:04:49 - for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:04:25 - Mar 2002 09:04:25 -0500 Subject: Grand experiment Bob - I went to Ron Kusse's site and looked at the diagram.I think he is right,the power of the quad is explained by the broad face of power fibers in thecasting plane. What he does not tell you, is that the mathmatical conversion from hex to quad is .93. Therefore the outer face of a quad is 7% closer tothe centerline of the rod. I think this explains the initially slower feel on rodsthat are converted this way from hex tapers. BUT, it is not the initial speedof the rod that determines line speed, it is the speed of the rod when loaded.The advantage of the quad is that they tend to shrug off load, just asKusse's diagram suggests. finally let me emphasize that the grandexperiment involved mathmatical conversion as the ground rule. If you gavethe Warra taper to an experienced quad builder like Mr. Zimny, and gave himthe freedom to modify it into something more suited to a quad, I have afeeling he would send the rest of us off the casting pond and back to theproverbi!al drawing board. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Mar 12 08:36:47 2002 g2CEak801896 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:36:46 - ([209.179.147.116] helo=computer) id 16knOJ-0007Oy-00; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:36:40 -0800 Subject: Re: Dimension increases Harry Wrote: But if we're making modern versions of the great rods of the past, =well, I'm gonna try to hit the numbers. Every time Harry, Attempting to make rods like they did in the past is a noble venture. =But just because they look like them, and measure like them does not me =they are the same as them. Their is more to copying a rod then the =dimensions and finish.Some of those numbers you should attempt to hit is =the heat treating, flaming, drying, same glue and finish of those =classics. Now out of the 50 or so guys I have come to know on the list =the only one that actually makes rods like those of the past with =similar methods and materials is Chris Lucker. His dad was a maker and =so was his grandfather. He uses hide glue and pliobond, a very heavy =mill shoot even port oroford cedar. He uses traditional finishes and =tapers. So what he is doing can actually be represented as being as =close to what the makers in the past did. The rest of us are using =forms, plastic finishes, new glues, stabilized wood and different =methods of heat treating and flaming. Sure our rods look like the =classics but in reality that is were the similarity ends when it comes =to construction. There is a company here in So. Calif. that makes replicas of the car ="Shelby Cobra" it looks like a cobra, it smells like a cobra, it even =sounds like a cobra. But it is not a Shelby Cobra it actually has a = Adam Vigil P.S.- now this thread is much better then the shotgun one. Harry Wrote: But if we're making modern versions of the great rods of the = Harry, Attempting to make rods like they did = is a noble venture. But just because they look like them, and measure = them does not me they are the same as them. Their is more to copying a = then the dimensions and finish.Some of those numbers you should = the only one that actually makes rods like those of the past with = methods and materials is Chris Lucker. His dad was a maker and so was = grandfather. He uses hide glue and pliobond, a very heavy mill shoot = makers in the past did. The rest of us are using forms, plastic = glues, stabilized wood and different methods of heat treating and = similarity ends when it comes to construction. There is a company here in So. = sounds like a cobra. But it is not a Shelby Cobra it actually = better suspension, is faster and handles better. Adam Vigil P.S.- now this thread is much better = shotgun one. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Mar 12 08:44:38 2002 g2CEib802533 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:44:37 - ([209.179.147.116] helo=computer) id 16knVz-0001DY-00; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:44:35 -0800 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Dimension increases Let me see, there is the Para 15, Para 17, The Driggs and I believe the = Adam Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 6:25 AMSubject: Re: Dimension increases Help me remember... what popular tapers are based on setups rather =than rods which were measured for flat-to-flat dimensions? Seems like I =remember Wayne posting some of the original six-inch station settings = Many of the tapers we have are on 5" centers. These numbers were =taken from setups and that is what we have to work with. I guess if =matching the original rod flat to flat is the wanted outcome you are all =set. Harry, Let me see, there is the Para 15, Para= Adam ----- Original Message ----- Harry= Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Dimension =increases setups rather than rods which were measured for flat-to-flat = Seems like I remember Wayne posting some of the original six-inch = Manyof = have are on 5" centers. These numbers were taken from setups and = what we have to work with. I guess if matching the original rod flat = is the wanted outcome you are all set. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Tue Mar 12 08:48:30 2002 g2CEmT802874 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:48:29 -0600 ([209.179.147.116] helo=computer) id 16knZa-0005pY-00; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:48:18 -0800 , Subject: Re: Dimension increases Patrick, What I am wondering is how much do we allow for the original rods glue =line? I believe since we do not know the original glues thickness how do =we determine how much to decrease our dimensions for the rod we are =making? Adam Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 6:53 AMSubject: RE: Dimension increases If you use a taper from one of the archives or from the taper program, =it seems to me that you have to subtract for the glue thickness from the =strip dimensions to end up with the rod being the right dimensions after =glue up. The old tapers included the glue so if you don't decrease strip =dimensions, you end up with a rod that doesn't match the taper, same =with hex rod, the stress are based on a glued up rod and what the =computer shows and reality may be two different things. We calculate =stresses without the proper dimensions cause no where do we take into =account the thickness of the glue and that thickness changes with time. Fax: 425-237-0083 -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 5:49 AM Subject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to =dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue line does not add to the =overall dimension. I have not found the same thing. I find that Using =epon I do get an increase due to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have =not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I =am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more or less to =the specs. Glue also decreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring =rods several years old it is almost impossible to know how much the glue =line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way =they are right on mark with the numbers after glue up. But in my mind =if your glue is adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this =is going to change the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to =measure .003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not =cane. And do any of us know the MOE of each glue or how .001" is going =to effect the function of the rod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action = Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your =toes to put on a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that =actually what you want? Adam Vigil Subject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, never seen more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the =finished blank due to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to =be some change from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html Patrick, What I am wondering is how much do we= original rods glue line? I believe since we do not know the original = thickness how do we determine how much to decrease our dimensions for = are making? Adam ----- Original Message ----- Coffey, Patrick W = =; rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 = AMSubject: RE: Dimension =increases you use a taper from one of the archives or from the taper program, it = dimensions to end up with the rod being the right dimensions after = The old tapers included the glue so if you don't decrease strip = you end up with a rod that doesn't match the taper, same with hex rod, = stress are based on a glued up rod and what the computer shows and = be two different things. We calculate stresses without the proper = cause no where do we take into account the thickness of the glue and = thickness changes with time. Patrick W. =Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning =Phone: 425-234-2901 425-237-0083 increasesDon, I have asked that same question on = Most just plane to dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue = Being glue is not cane I have not been willing to reduce the amount = to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going to = little more or less to the specs. Glue also decreases over the years = shrinks. So measuring rods several years old it is almost impossible = how much the glue line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane = glue up. But in my mind if your glue is adding .003" and you remove = amount of cane this is going to change the rod more then if you just = the rod to measure .003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 = not cane. And do any of us know the MOE of each glue or = going to effect the function of the rod? I do not think =so. So far using glue and not = has produce the action for the line weight I expected. Taking off cane to allow for glue = cutting off your toes to put on a shoe that is to small. It might = that actually what you want? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- = Don & Sandy =Andersen Sent: Sunday, March 10, = AMSubject: Dimension =increasesGuys/Gals,For the past number of years I = this board a lot. I've never seen more that 2 posts on the amount = expansion created in the finished blank due to glue.Anyone = any work on the subject. I know that there has to be some change = =others.regards,Donhttp://www=.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html= from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Mar 12 09:21:03 2002 g2CFL2804700 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:21:02 - Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:21:01 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Grand experiment. Thread-Topic: Grand experiment.Thread-Index: AcHJd43AP8r+oDVjEda4LwBglOouXwAXgWxg FILETIME=[84BE1320:01C1C9D9] g2CFL2804701 Bob -- Personally I don't think it's your drain, you clearly need a bamboo toilet. Thataside, here's what I've observed in making about 5 quads - so I don't claim tobe an old hand. What I've seen is that a given rate of change in shaftthickness produces a greater change in stiffness than in quad than in a hex.That works both ways. When the shaft increases the quad gets stifferfaster. Where it gets smaller, a quad gets flexible faster. This goes beyondthe question of whether a shaft with a given cross section is stiffer in quador hex form; it has more to do with the dynamics of casting, the way the rodresponds as the stress of a cast moves down the shaft. I've had experiences like Bob's of a "straight" conversion from hex to quad -straight in the sense of using a conversion factor maintaining the samecross sectional area in both rods. At first the quad seems very soft in thebutt, but in practice it works pretty well once I get used to it. The tip andmid are still lively. After making some corrections to the butt and mid, I'vemade some quads that I really like. Though I can't say they "track" betterthan a hex, I think that's an illusion and the physics of it supports that. Myfeeling now is that you can make a rod that feels about the same with eithermethod, though the tapers won't be identical. The quad might be just a bitlighter (though with less difference than some claim, once I've adapted thebutt) but not enough to matter to me. Anyway I'd be interested to know how this compares to others' experience. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Grand experiment. Hi Tom:I had two thoughts regarding the quads in the Grand Experiment and yourpost. 1. If you had a quad and hex of the same dimension, the quad wouldstill be minus the pointy wings on the left and right of the shaft.http://www.ronkusse.com/quads.html says it pretty nicely with the diagramthere. Also, there is less glue in the rod. (Maybe this is negligible).2. The funny thing that I have noticed in the straight quad versions of theSir D, Driggs, and the Para 15 that I have done is that they do seemstiffer/heavier line weight than their hex counterparts, but they are stillmore full working. Sometimes, this seems slower in hand. How could a rod bestiffer and yet slower feeling at the same time? I don't know, maybe thestiffness transfers the energy back toward the handles whereas a weakerhexversion creates hinges that place the action more near the tip? They allseem more powerful but less tippy. Stiffer yet slower actioned.Am I nuts, is my drain going in the wrong direction?Best regards,Bob -----Original Message----- TSmithwick@aol.com Subject: Grand experiment.The quads felt soft, but infact castextremely well, if the caster could adapt to the full flexing action. Noteveryone can, but the quad builder can compensate by modifying the taper.What interested me, is that the quads came out lighter than thehexes. Sincethe components were the same, where did the weight go? It must be in theshaft somewhere, so the conversion factor didn't work out??? from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Tue Mar 12 09:21:08 2002 g2CFL8804709 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:21:08 - Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:21:02 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Grand experiment. Thread-Topic: Grand experiment.Thread-Index: AcHJm6f2L2LJyDWIEda4LwBglOouXwAPaiBA FILETIME=[85986D90:01C1C9D9] g2CFL8804710 Allen - I wonder if you agree with something I've been thinking - that three piecerods lend themselves to compound tapers like the Grangers and Phillipsonsbecause the ferrules can be used to put the stiff spots about where theybelong anyway. So even a "straight" taper made in 3 pieces will behave morelike a compound taper in practice. And for those who like the compoundtapers, three pieces can be just as good as or better than a one or two piecerod. Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Grand experiment. This brings up a point concerning three pc rods that I have talked about before. I don't think that a 2 or a 3 pc rod has to feel any different from each other. An ignored variable is I think the ferrules. In a properly designed 3 pc rod the ferrules have to be designed in with enough cane to carry the ferrule, especially in the mid for the tip ferrule and the ferrule drop is critical for a 3 pc rod. Almost all of the classic 3 pc rods used a leonard style ferrule which is both longer and lighter than a standard length swiss ferrule. By using a truncated ferrule on a 3 pc rod you have ignored one of the critical design aspects of a classic 3 pc taper by eliminating the 'stiff' spot that the old makers were very much aware of. In addition most of the tapers posted are set up for hand planing in a garrison style format. A notable exception is Howells book that clearly shows the drop over the ferrule. By taking into account these remaing parts of the puzzle I think that the mysteries of 3 pc design will fall to the experimenters of the list. In addition it has been my experience that 3 pc rods are most easily designed with the computer between the ears ratherthan the mechanical one on the desk.A.J. John notes that the 3 piece rods were slower than the 2 piece rods. Nosuprise here, but one very notable exception was Marty Karstetter's entry. AtThe Grand, the maker's names were masked. I picked this rod up and sawnothing remarkable, but John accused me of casting into the next areacode,and he wasn't far wrong. I badgered him into revealing the maker. The answerseems to be that the rod was hollow built, and the weight of the rod is inthe low range for two piece rods. Therefore, the weight of the ferrules wasnegated, and their effect on the action must have had more to do with weightthan stiffness.Others have pointed out that the experiment was not fully controlled, andthat's true, but the general conclusions as expressed by John hold up, andthe experiment seemed to me to be very worthwhile. _________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com from rmoon@ida.net Tue Mar 12 09:31:49 2002 g2CFVm805836 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:31:48 - 0000 Subject: Re: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out for you, but therewerea number of different models.Ralph KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Folks, Many thanks to all who have helped me with taper suggestions. I've gotsomegreat ideas from this list and am working on building the next 6 rods tocompare tapers so I can develop a feel for rod action. I've settled on thesetapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wt rods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613, Granger7'6",Leonard 39DH, Garrison 206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted tocomparerods with different actions ranging from fast, medium fast, to medium,andall of these rods seem to fit this. This is where I need some help. I want to start with the Granger 7'6", butthe tapers I have found in the Howell book and the archives don't line up toowell with one another. I sure would appreciate some folks providing mewiththis taper from rods they have either built or cast, and have liked it. Thanks for your help! Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Tue Mar 12 09:36:02 2002 g2CFa2806343 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:36:02 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:19:26 -0600 Subject: RE: Dimension increases and stiffness Please correct me if I am mistaken.... The program takes into account the stiffness of the section, as well as themass of everything above the point in question. So as we increase theflat-to-flat, we are increasing both the moment of inertia, as well as thedead load above that point. The increase in stiffness is more than enoughto make up for the the increased in mass. Therefore, the rod becomescapable of carrying additional line load. That's basically what Hexrod isdoing for us when we massage a rod into another line weight. Thanks for running these numbers Claude. Seems to make sense... TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Dimension increases and stiffness Troy's comments above got me to wondering, so I ran some numbers. (snip)My conclusion is that a glue thickness of .005 or so would make what appears to me to be a significant difference in the final rod, varying from one line size heavier in the tip, to about a half size larger in the butt. This is not to say that the rod would cast differently, as that probably depends on the individual doing the casting more than anything else. Claude from KyleDruey@aol.com Tue Mar 12 09:59:13 2002 g2CFxC808051 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:59:12 - 0312105830; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:58:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed Hi Ralph, The way I understand it, and it is very likely I could be wrong, is that thetaper is supposed to be the same regardless of the model for the samelength rod. The Victory, Aristocrat, Deluxe, etc. are all supposed to havethe same taper but different fittings and finish. If this is the case then anymodel would do. If you know this to be different please let me know. Thanks, Kyle In a message dated Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:32:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,"Ralph W. Moon" writes: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out for you, but therewerea number of different models.Ralph KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Folks, Many thanks to all who have helped me with taper suggestions. I've gotsomegreat ideas from this list and am working on building the next 6 rods tocompare tapers so I can develop a feel for rod action. I've settled onthesetapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wt rods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613,Granger 7'6",Leonard 39DH, Garrison 206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted tocomparerods with different actions ranging from fast, medium fast, to medium,andall of these rods seem to fit this. This is where I need some help. I want to start with the Granger 7'6", butthe tapers I have found in the Howell book and the archives don't line uptoowell with one another. I sure would appreciate some folks providing mewiththis taper from rods they have either built or cast, and have liked it. Thanks for your help! Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from KyleDruey@aol.com Tue Mar 12 10:06:56 2002 g2CG6u808787 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:06:56 - MAILINID65-0312110631; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:06:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Grand experiment. AJ, Are you saying that you need to add more wood around the ferrule area, orjust more wood on a particular side of the ferrule. The 3 piece Granger tapers seem to have a slight increase in wood aroundthe female ferrule. Kyle In a message dated Tue, 12 Mar 2002 2:57:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,"Allen Thramer" writes: This brings up a point concerning three pc rods that I have talked about before. I don't think that a 2 or a 3 pc rod has to feel any different from each other. An ignored variable is I think the ferrules. In a properly designed 3 pc rod the ferrules have to be designed in with enough cane to carry the ferrule, especially in the mid for the tip ferrule and the ferrule drop is critical for a 3 pc rod. Almost all of the classic 3 pc rods used a leonard style ferrule which is both longer and lighter than a standard length swiss ferrule. By using a truncated ferrule on a 3 pc rod you have ignored one of the critical design aspects of a classic 3 pc taper by eliminating the 'stiff' spot that the old makers were very much aware of. In addition most of the tapers posted are set up for hand planing in agarrison style format. A notable exception is Howells book that clearly shows the drop over the ferrule. By taking into account these remaing parts of the puzzle I think that the mysteries of 3 pc design will fall to the experimenters of the list. In addition it has been my experience that 3 pc rods are most easily designed with the computer between the ears ratherthan the mechanical one on the desk.A.J. John notes that the 3 piece rods were slower than the 2 piece rods. Nosuprise here, but one very notable exception was Marty Karstetter'sentry. AtThe Grand, the maker's names were masked. I picked this rod up and sawnothing remarkable, but John accused me of casting into the next areacode,and he wasn't far wrong. I badgered him into revealing the maker. The answerseems to be that the rod was hollow built, and the weight of the rod is inthe low range for two piece rods. Therefore, the weight of the ferruleswasnegated, and their effect on the action must have had more to do with weightthan stiffness.Others have pointed out that the experiment was not fully controlled, andthat's true, but the general conclusions as expressed by John hold up, andthe experiment seemed to me to be very worthwhile. _________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com from rmoon@ida.net Tue Mar 12 10:20:53 2002 g2CGKq809828 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:20:52 - 0000 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Grand experiment. Kyle You may be right. I had forgotton. I'll mike it this morning and post alittle later. I will say that of all the classicor semi classic rods I have cast (with the exeption of a Jim Payne) this I likethe most. Someday I will tell you aboutfalling in the Henry's Fork and losing that rod and a Hardy Perfect reel. Ralph KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: AJ, Are you saying that you need to add more wood around the ferrule area, orjust more wood on a particular side of the ferrule. The 3 piece Granger tapers seem to have a slight increase in wood aroundthe female ferrule. Kyle In a message dated Tue, 12 Mar 2002 2:57:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,"Allen Thramer" writes: This brings up a point concerning three pc rods that I have talked aboutbefore. I don't think that a 2 or a 3 pc rod has to feel any different fromeach other. An ignored variable is I think the ferrules. In a properlydesigned 3 pc rod the ferrules have to be designed in with enough cane tocarry the ferrule, especially in the mid for the tip ferrule and the ferruledrop is critical for a 3 pc rod. Almost all of the classic 3 pc rods used aleonard style ferrule which is both longer and lighter than a standardlength swiss ferrule. By using a truncated ferrule on a 3 pc rod you haveignored one of the critical design aspects of a classic 3 pc taper byeliminating the 'stiff' spot that the old makers were very much aware of.Inaddition most of the tapers posted are set up for hand planing in agarrisonstyle format. A notable exception is Howells book that clearly shows thedrop over the ferrule. By taking into account these remaing parts of thepuzzle I think that the mysteries of 3 pc design will fall to theexperimenters of the list. In addition it has been my experience that 3 pcrods are most easily designed with the computer between the earsrather thanthe mechanical one on the desk.A.J. John notes that the 3 piece rods were slower than the 2 piece rods. Nosuprise here, but one very notable exception was Marty Karstetter'sentry.AtThe Grand, the maker's names were masked. I picked this rod up andsawnothing remarkable, but John accused me of casting into the next areacode,and he wasn't far wrong. I badgered him into revealing the maker. Theanswerseems to be that the rod was hollow built, and the weight of the rod isinthe low range for two piece rods. Therefore, the weight of the ferruleswasnegated, and their effect on the action must have had more to do withweightthan stiffness.Others have pointed out that the experiment was not fully controlled,andthat's true, but the general conclusions as expressed by John hold up,andthe experiment seemed to me to be very worthwhile. _________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Tue Mar 12 10:51:47 2002 g2CGpl811704 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:51:47 -0600 KAA18511; KAA24070; g2CGq4L04940; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:51:41 -0800 "Coffey, Patrick W" ,dmanders@telusplanet.net, rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Dimension increases this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I don't know, I guess one would have to make a whole bunch of short rodsection (say 3") and glue them up with various glues, measuring bound without glue and then what the increase was after the glue up. Would have to do multiple glue ups to get accurate averaged results. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Dimension increases Patrick, What I am wondering is how much do we allow for the original rods glue line?I believe since we do not know the original glues thickness how do wedetermine how much to decrease our dimensions for the rod we are making? Adam ----- Original Message ----- Vigil' ; dmanders@telusplanet.net; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSent: Monday, March 11, 2002 6:53 AMSubject: RE: Dimension increases If you use a taper from one of the archives or from the taper program, itseems to me that you have to subtract for the glue thickness from the stripdimensions to end up with the rod being the right dimensions after glue up.The old tapers included the glue so if you don't decrease strip dimensions,you end up with a rod that doesn't match the taper, same with hex rod, thestress are based on a glued up rod and what the computer shows and realitymay be two different things. We calculate stresses without the properdimensions cause no where do we take into account the thickness of the glueand that thickness changes with time. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Dimension increases Don, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to dimensionand glue. Some even say that the glue line does not add to the overalldimension. I have not found the same thing. I find that Using epon I do getan increase due to the glue. Being glue is not cane I have not been willingto reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet thateach glue going to add a little more or less to the specs. Glue alsodecreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring rods several years old itis almost impossible to know how much the glue line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow for the glue. This way they areright on mark with the numbers after glue up. But in my mind if your glueis adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this is going tochange the rod more then if you just allowed the rod to measure .003" overthe original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane. And do any of us knowthe MOE of each glue or how .001" is going to effect the function of therod? I do not think so. So far using glue and not decreasing the cane has produce the action for theline weight I expected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes to puton a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that actually what you want? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:41 AMSubject: Dimension increases Guys/Gals, more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the finished blankdue to glue.Anyone ever done any work on the subject. I know that there has to be somechange from the glue addition. Some glues more that others. regards, Don http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html I don't know, I guess one would have to make a whole bunch of short rodsection (say 3") and glue them up with various glues, measuring bound with out glueand then what the increase was after the glue up. Would have to do multiple glue ups to get accurate averaged results. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair Planning 61-79 -----Original Message-----From: Adam Vigil 6:48 rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Dimension increasesPatrick, What I am wondering is how much do we allow the original rods glue line? I believe since we do not know the original glues thickness how do we determine how much to decrease our dimensions forthe rod we are making? Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: Coffey, Patrick W Vigil' ; dmanders@telusplanet.net ; rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 6:53 AMSubject: RE: Dimensionincreases If you use a taper from one of the archives or from the taper program, itseems to me that you have to subtract for the glue thickness from the strip dimensions to end up with the rod being the right dimensions after glue up. The old tapers included the glue so if you don't decrease strip dimensions, you end up with a rod that doesn't match the taper, same with hex rod,the stress are based on a glued up rod and what the computer shows andreality may be two different things. We calculate stresses without the proper dimensions cause no where do we take into account the thickness of theglue and that thickness changes with time. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident RepairPlanning Phone: 425-234- 425-237-0083 -----Original Message-----From: Adam Vigil 2002 5:49 rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Dimension increasesDon, I have asked that same question on 2 occasions. Most just plane to dimension and glue. Some even say that the glue. Being glue is not cane I have not been willing to reduce the amount of cane to allow for the glue. I am willing to bet that each glue going to add a little more or less to the specs. Glue also decreases over the years and shrinks. So measuring rods several years old it is almost impossible to know how much the glue line originally added. Their are some that reduce the cane to allow after glue up. But in my mind if your glue is adding .003" and you remove the same amount of cane this is going to change the rod more then if youjust allowed the rod to measure .003" over the original #'s. After all the .003 is glue not cane. And do any of us know the MOE of each glue or so. So far using glue and not decreasing thecane has produce the action for the line weight I expected. Taking off cane to allow for glue is similar to cutting off your toes to put on a shoe that is to small. It might fit but is that actually what you want? Adam Vigil ----- Original Message ----- From: Don & Sandy Andersen Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:41 AMSubject: Dimension increasesGuys/Gals,For the past number of years Iwatched this board a lot. I've never seen more that 2 posts on the amount of expansion created in the finished blank due to glue.Anyone everdone any work on the subject. I know that there has to be some change from the glue addition. Some glues more that others.regards,Donhttp://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from canazon@mindspring.com Tue Mar 12 11:05:29 2002 g2CH5S812593 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:05:28 - helo=oemcomputer) id 16kpiH-0002yx-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:05:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Grand experiment. all as a newcomer to bamboo rods and rodmaking, my experience withbambooand it's properties, it's tapers and action, was quite limited. i only knewwhat i had read or what someone described to me. it was like living in abubble. but here i had the opportunity to cast one rod, built with manydifferent actions. i could see the difference in the action of the penta,the quad, two or three piece. and it was all the "same" rod. for me, thelearning curve on that weekend resembled the rise of the nasdaq in the 90's.i got to meet several novice rodmakers there that were as amazed at thedifferent properties of the rods as i was.bill harms is correct in stating that there were too many variables inrod construction, but bill, this was the first attempt at a "grand" idea.and you should have been there to cast the rods. knowing that i wouldn't beable to correlate the final results with what i liked or didn't like, i madea copy of my sheet and brought it home so i could compare my notes on therods to the final reporti think the idea behind the grand experiment was great. there is anongoing thread on the list concerning rod dimensions. this could be thebasis for another experiment, at another gathering. using one taper, build arod with different dimensions and glues. bring your rod and let's compare,even get scientific about the whole damn thing, if you want to. and wewant to!the other nite i decided to reset the ferrule on a midge rod i am makingusing information garnered from the list. i mean how hard could it be? alittle heat to pop the ferrule off, right?a five minute job. well, in no time at all i had a smoking, charred, pointedferrule station about 1/4" shorter than i what i started with. it lookedlike one of those exploding cigars.i guess everything is an experiment until you do it a few times. mike from rmoon@ida.net Tue Mar 12 11:18:38 2002 g2CHIb813559 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:18:37 - Subject: Re: Grand experiment. --------------A63590E58C6475BBCCCA56FC Mike The governing word on your ferrule replacement should be a LITTLE heat. Beenthere done that. I do have problem with your suggestion for more testing.Nomatter how scientific we may try to be it all boils down to a subjectiveopinion. I still believe that a rod should be made to feel good, and it doesnot matter if it is hex, quad, blonde, flamed 2 piece or three piece . If itsuits the caster and he likes it it is a good rod! One of the best I think Ihave ever seen, will make all of the list laugh. It was a 7' Montague Sunbeam.$5, I think at its heyday. Ralph mike canazon wrote: all as a newcomer to bamboo rods and rodmaking, my experience with bambooand it's properties, it's tapers and action, was quite limited. i only knewwhat i had read or what someone described to me. it was like living in abubble. but here i had the opportunity to cast one rod, built with manydifferent actions. i could see the difference in the action of the penta,the quad, two or three piece. and it was all the "same" rod. for me, thelearning curve on that weekend resembled the rise of the nasdaq in the90's.i got to meet several novice rodmakers there that were as amazed at thedifferent properties of the rods as i was.bill harms is correct in stating that there were too many variables inrod construction, but bill, this was the first attempt at a "grand" idea.and you should have been there to cast the rods. knowing that i wouldn'tbeable to correlate the final results with what i liked or didn't like, i madea copy of my sheet and brought it home so i could compare my notes ontherods to the final reporti think the idea behind the grand experiment was great. there is anongoing thread on the list concerning rod dimensions. this could be thebasis for another experiment, at another gathering. using one taper, buildarod with different dimensions and glues. bring your rod and let's compare,even get scientific about the whole damn thing, if you want to. and wewant to!the other nite i decided to reset the ferrule on a midge rod i am makingusing information garnered from the list. i mean how hard could it be? alittle heat to pop the ferrule off, right?a five minute job. well, in no time at all i had a smoking, charred, pointedferrule station about 1/4" shorter than i what i started with. it lookedlike one of those exploding cigars.i guess everything is an experiment until you do it a few times. mike --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------A63590E58C6475BBCCCA56FC MikeThe governing word on your ferrule replacement should be aLITTLE your suggestion for more testing.No matter how scientific we may try to a rod should be made to feel good, and it does not matter if it is hex, Ralphmike canazon wrote:all rodmaking,my experience with bambooand it's properties, it's tapers and action, was quite limited. i onlyknewwhat i had read or what someone described to me. it was like livingin abubble. but here i had the opportunity to cast one rod, built withmanydifferent actions. i could see the difference in the action of thepenta,the quad, two or three piece. and it was all the "same" rod. for me,thelearning curve on that weekend resembled the rise of the nasdaq inthe 90's. amazedat thedifferent properties of the rods as i was. were too many variables inrod construction, but bill, this was the first attempt at a "grand" i wouldn't beable to correlate the final results with what i liked or didn't like,i madea copy of my sheet and brought it home so i could compare my noteson therods to the final report there is an be thebasis for another experiment, at another gathering. using one taper,build arod with different dimensions and glues. bring your rod and let'scompare,even get scientific about the whole damn thing, if you want and wewant to! a midge rod i am makingusing information garnered from the list. i mean how hard could itbe? alittle heat to pop the ferrule off, right?a five minute job. well, in no time at all i had a smoking, charred,pointedferrule station about 1/4" shorter than i what i started with. it lookedlike one of those exploding cigars. few times. --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------A63590E58C6475BBCCCA56FC-- from baconrod@gsmrinc.com Tue Mar 12 11:38:09 2002 g2CHc8814776 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:38:08 -0600 Subject: Re: Bulk fly order Don.A friend who sells flies at the shows has purchased flies from thisfirm The flies are worth the cost. Last fall 26 trout on one size 20 B.W.Obefore I had to replace it.Best Hal----- Original Message ----- ; "Rex Tutor" ; "Harold Bacon" Subject: Re: Bulk fly order Harold has bought some flies from them before and said they were very nice. Harold will you weigh in here for the benefit of everyone? If someone wants to call Fishwest.net for a reference you're welcome to. quality hackles, tight wraps, good proportions. I haven't any streamers,nymphs, or bass flies though. But it was dry fly quality that I was worried about. -Don ----- Original Message -----From: Miller, Troy ; Rex Tutor ; Harold Bacon Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:55 PMSubject: RE: Bulk fly order Hi Don, et al -- Coupla quick ones. Re. item #1 below, did we verify with any of the"references" that the flies are of good quality on a regular basis? This could ease our minds ahead of time, rather than plunking down a couplehunnert bucks each and hoping for the best.... On the US shipping, I don't mind if you estimate it from Colorado to Texas, pad it a little to be sure you have enough, and then I'll just write onecheck for that. If there is money left over, keep it. If not, and you need more, then I'll be glad to send you some more. That would be easiest for me, and the few extra bucks it may cost me would be your pay for handling this. Hopefully I'm still in on the deal, I am filling out the spreadsheet right now. TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:02 PM BaconSubject: Bulk fly order Guys,I am sending this to all of you who responded so far and said you wereinterested. The response has been pretty strong already, we already have enough people to make the 100 dozen minimum. Therefore I will be cutting off new joiners into this tonight--I don't want to spend too much time on this! First some ground rules for the order:1. I can't be held responsible for the quality of the flies when the order arrives. I paid $10 for a sample of 1 dozen: (2 each of the following) #18 Irresistibles, #20 Para Adams, #8 Dave's Hopper, #14 Green DrakeWulff, #20 Griffiths Gnats, and #20 BWO. All of the flies, IMHO, were at least a "8" out of "10" on the quality scale. They are definitely not the Walmart grade of cruddy "fishin flies". All were equal in quality--once again myopinion--to flies that cost $1.50 each in fly shops where I live (Colo). The only thing I'm worried about is that the sample flies they sent might be"model Units" and not a true representation of the quality we should allexpect. Of course I hope this is not true and my hunch is that it is not. Having said all this, I will send each of you a sample fly from my sample dozen if you'd like, before you committ to a large quantity. Your choice: trust me or see for yourself. Just send me your snail mail and I'll get em out right away. 2. I will expect everyone to pitch in equally for the shipping charges from Kenya. Eg, no matter how large or small your personal quantity of fliesordered, if there's six of us in on $60 shipping we each pay $10. Hope this sounds fair. It certainly will be easier than figuring Joe Bob had 12.5% of the order, Jim Bob had 15.9% etc. 3. Once I receive the flies in Colorado Springs I will ship your share via USPS directly to your address. Of course insurance is your option but Iwould certainly recommend it. Each individual will be 100% responsible for shipping from my address to theirs. 4. Quantities: I have already made my selections and it is more than Ithought - 64 dozen. So everybody else on the order just needs to total 36 dozen to make the minimum. So if some of you don't want a lot here's your chance. on the other 5. To ease my pain a little, I'd like it if each of you would enter yourselections on a spreadsheet (.xls) that I've created. Its is attached. Don't forget to add the item numbers and hook sizes. When you are done filling out the spreadsheet send it back to me as an attachment. As soon as I receive the last spreadsheet I'll proceed with placing the order 6. Payment. Don't send checks until I have a firm estimate on shippingcharges from Kenya. I'll let everyone know when this happens. 7. I'm not sure how I'll handle shipping from my house to yours. Probably have to be a second check after I repackage and send to your addr. Staytuned. Or better yet does anyone have suggestions on how this wouldbest be handled? Thats all for now I guess. Get your spreadsheets back to me with yourselections as soon as possible. At that point I'll contact everyone toconfirm their order before contacting the wholesaler. My guess is this will happen Monday or Tuesday. As for my guess on how long the flies will take to get from Kenya to Colorado well thats a good question! In the meantime if anyone has anything to add or questions via email--just do a "reply all" to keep the discussion going. Since we're all in thistogether I'd prefer for the whole group to see every conversation. ThanksDon from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Mar 12 12:15:11 2002 g2CIFA816492 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:15:11 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed Kyle, I think that is generally true, however there was a Model #17 Featherweight. I'm not aware of any other models being designated "Featherweight", but my ignorance in this area is vast.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Ralph, The way I understand it, and it is very likely I could be wrong, is that thetaper is supposed to be the same regardless of the model for the samelength rod. The Victory, Aristocrat, Deluxe, etc. are all supposed to havethe same taper but different fittings and finish. If this is the case then anymodel would do. If you know this to be different please let me know. Thanks, Kyle In a message dated Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:32:04 AM Eastern StandardTime, "Ralph W. Moon" writes: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out for you, butthere werea number of different models.Ralph KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Mar 12 12:21:52 2002 g2CILp816856 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:21:51 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed - Whoops! Sorry, all, Despite the obvious mention of Granger, I had Heddon on my mind. Mea culpa, mea culpa.Reed Reed Curry wrote: Kyle,I think that is generally true, however there was a Model #17 Featherweight. I'm not aware of any other models being designated "Featherweight", but my ignorance in this area is vast.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Ralph, The way I understand it, and it is very likely I could be wrong, is that the taper is supposed to be the same regardless of the model for the same length rod. The Victory, Aristocrat, Deluxe, etc. are all supposed to have the same taper but different fittings and finish. If this is the case then any model would do. If you know this to be different please let me know. Thanks, Kyle In a message dated Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:32:04 AM Eastern StandardTime, "Ralph W. Moon" writes: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out for you, but there werea number of different models.Ralph KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: -- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ >Fromcanazon@mindspring.com Tue Mar 12 12:30:07 2002 Received: from g2CIRC817244 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 ([165.247.28.136] helo=oemcomputer) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with 0500 Message-ID: Cc: References: Subject: Re: Grand experiment. Date: Tue, canazon@mindspring.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This The governing word on your ferrule replacement should be a LITTLE = heat.Been there done that. I do have problem with your suggestion for = moretesting.No matter how scientific we may try to be it all boils down = to asubjective opinion. I still believe that a rod should be made to = feel good, andit does not matter if it is hex, quad, blonde, flamed 2 = piece or three piece .If it suits the caster and he likes it it is a = good rod! One of the best I think Ihave ever seen, will make all of = the list laugh. It was a 7' Montague good. that should be the determining = factor is selecting a rod. at the grandexperiment i got to see which = factors i would like to incorporate in a rod iwant to build because i = knew what felt good. now i'm not going to be buildingquads or pentas = any time soon, but i may go to a three piece, only because please. anyway, this whole = bamboo thing is scientific in nature. now i'm notvery detail = orientated. but i already know that i have to start listing all the= procedures i've done on each rod i'm making. taking notes on times, =temps, how long i soak, and even the type color of silk i put on a rod, = so ican duplicate what works and what doesn't. what feels good. i also = do it so ican document all the screw-ups i've made so that if i have a = failure i canhopefully determine what caused it. now although it might = not soundscientific to some people it is a lot more than i ever = bargained for when i Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu =Sent: Tuesday, March 12, made to feel good, and it does not matter if it is hex, quad, blonde, = flamed USGSFS01.g-l.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:08:18 -0500 Internet Agent 5.5.3.1 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:07:56 -0500 From: , Subject: Re: Pens -- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X-Listprocessor- Version:8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN -- =_BAE70532.56376DC1 quoted-printable I have been draghting for more than 30 years (surveying,mining, geological= , etc.) and all these years have used Rotring instruments,which include = curves, scales, lettering systems, compasses, etc., THEBEST!!! Oscar Segal "Kurt Clement" 03/11/02 08:50PM >>> Ahhh, another pen addict. I have had a Rotring 600 fountain pen for =several years and enjoy it very much. Of course I also have a Waterman, =the Levenger "Empire", a Minka (nice for the price), and several utility =fountain pens. Like fine tools, they are a pleasure to use. Rotring, by the way means "red ring" in German according to their website =- which I can't locate right now. Also www.discountpens.com, and = KurtNixa, MO-----Original Message----- Subject: Pens -- off topic I have found a very unique maker of good writing instruments. Rotring, of =Germany, makes a set hexagonal fountain pens, roller-balls, ball-points, =and mechanical pencil in either an aluminum or flat black finish. I found =them from a company called Levengers who specialize in fine writing =instruments. Levenger's has a website but Rotring doesn't seem to have =one of their own. A search shows they are sold elsewhere. No financial interest but thought it would be appropriate to pass =along...... f _________________________Fred Bohls3519 Ada DriveMechanicsburg, PA 17050-2213 Home: (717) 732-5050Fax: (717) 732-2414 MAKE IT A GREAT DAY !!!!!! I have been draghting for more than 30 years(surveying= mining, geological, etc.) and all these years have used Rotring instruments= BEST!!! Oscar Segal have = pleasure to use. Rotring, by the way means "red ring" in German = www.pencity.com have betterprices.&nbs= KurtNixa, MO -----Original Message-----= RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu = Monday, March 11, 2002 6:04 PMSubject: Pens -- topicI have found a very unique maker of good = roller-balls, ball-points, and mechanical pencil in either an aluminum = Rotring doesn't seem to have one of their own. A search shows they are = elsewhere.No financial interest but thought it would be = ;f_________________________FredBohls35= DAY!!!!!! from HalManas@aol.com Tue Mar 12 13:47:44 2002 g2CJli824383 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:47:44 - for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:47:28 - Subject: Devcon 5 min. and CSE ferrules List,Has anyone used the new blue Devcon 5 min. epoxy? I've been using their 5 min. epoxy for tiptops and reel seats, but I ran out recently. I could not find any, everywhere I went they had Super Glue brand or someother brand that I was not familiar with. I finally found some Loctite 5 min. epoxy and I'm using that now, but today I found some Devcon. The thing is, it was BLUE! I decided to wait and ask the list.Also, when I was reading my e-mail just now I saw some mention of CSE ferrules. Does anyone have a favorite place to get these? Do they have a web site? Any information will be greatly appreciated. Hal from rmoon@ida.net Tue Mar 12 14:04:40 2002 g2CK4d827105 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:04:39 - 0000 Subject: Granger Taper I have miked out the granger taper. Since it is a rather lengthyattachment, I have not sent it to the list. If any would like to haveit mail me off line, and I will send it.--http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from harms1@pa.net Tue Mar 12 14:29:54 2002 g2CKTr801557 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:29:53 - Subject: Re: Grand experiment Tom, I heard an interesting explanation of the quad's power this past weekend.I'll try to relay what I can, and then perhaps you and the others who areversed in physics and math can fill in the blanks. Apparently, the "slow" initial feel of the quad is explained by exactly thefactors you mentioned here, but the remarkable ability of the quad to "shrugoff" its load and keep on firing out the line is a function of what wasexplained to me as the principle of "elastic plasticity" (or, god help me,maybe it's "plastic elasticity"). Now this comes from one of DuPont'sengineers, and the deal is that, in a quad, the real strength comes not somuch from tension/compression of power fibers in the top and bottomsurfaces. In a quad, a still greater strength (when flexing) develops alongand within the two outer SIDES of the rod. As I understood what I was told, there is a sort of "cone" of strength thatdevelops along the length of the outer sides when a long, square shape isflexed (a cumulative, plastic resistance to bending that is more than just afunction of mass). Since a hexagonal rod does not enjoy broad, flat outersides, the cone of plasticity along its angled, outer sides is dissapated aseasily as it is formed. So the strength of a hex rod derives largely fromthe distance the power fibers (and their mass) are away from the centerline. Can anyone elaborate a little on this? I had been pretty clear all along onhow a hex rod gains its resistance to the forces of bending, but I had notheard this explanation about the "mystery" of the quad before. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Grand experiment Bob - I went to Ron Kusse's site and looked at the diagram.I think he is right, the power of the quad is explained by the broad face of power fibersin the casting plane. What he does not tell you, is that the mathmaticalconversion from hex to quad is .93. Therefore the outer face of a quad is 7%closer to the centerline of the rod. I think this explains the initiallyslower feel on rods that are converted this way from hex tapers. BUT, it isnot the initial speed of the rod that determines line speed, it is the speedof the rod when loaded. The advantage of the quad is that they tend to shrugoff load, just as Kusse's diagram suggests. finally let me emphasize thatthe grand experiment involved mathmatical conversion as the ground rule. Ifyou gave the Warra taper to an experienced quad builder like Mr. Zimny, andgave him the freedom to modify it into something more suited to a quad, Ihave a feeling he would send the rest of us off the casting pond and back tothe proverbi! al drawing board. from aport@si.rr.com Tue Mar 12 14:32:41 2002 g2CKWf802287 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:32:41 -0600 Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:32:31 -0500 , Subject: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Patrick,Could it be done as simply as running lots of short strips through =thickness planer, then gluing them up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' ( face =to face), then extrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex form, the =way Ray Gould said he figures his glue swell? That would certainly be =less time- consuming than making actual rod sections! Also a lot easier =to mic before gluing up, not having to worry about how tight the strips =are in a hex configuration...If one guy ran them all through his own planer at once, then farmed =them out to others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it should be a piece of =cake to accomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues in hand to do = Art Patrick, strips through thickness planer, then gluing them up a la the "Poor = ( face to face), then extrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex = way Ray Gould said he figures his glue swell? That would certainly be = time-consuming than making actual rod sections! Also a lot easier to mic = configuration... then farmed them out to others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it should be = of cake to accomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues in hand to = experiment. Art from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Tue Mar 12 14:36:58 2002 g2CKav802872 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:36:57 -0600 MAA06906; MAA13430; g2CKb3L27805; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:36:36 -0800 "Coffey, Patrick W" ,"'Adam Vigil'" , dmanders@telusplanet.net,rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. in order to see what the affect would be on a rod I think that you wouldhave to glue them un in a hex. All it would take is 6 strips 6' long cutinto 3" pieces and glued up. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Patrick,Could it be done as simply as running lots of short strips throughthickness planer, then gluing them up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' ( face toface), then extrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex form, the way RayGould said he figures his glue swell? That would certainly be lesstime- consuming than making actual rod sections! Also a lot easier to micbefore gluing up, not having to worry about how tight the strips are in ahex configuration...If one guy ran them all through his own planer at once, then farmed themout to others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it should be a piece of cake toaccomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues in hand to do theexperiment. Art in order to see what the affect would be on a rod I think that you would have to glue them un in a hex. All it would take is 6 strips 6' long cut into 3" pieces and glued up. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair Planning 61-79 -----Original Message-----From: arthur port 12:30 dmanders@telusplanet.net;rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Was Dimension increases, Now ExperimentationPatrick, strips through thickness planer, then gluing them up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' ( face to face), then extrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex form, the way Ray Gould said he figures his glue swell? That would certainly be less time-consuming than making actual rod sections! Also a lot easier to mic before gluing up, not having to worry about how tight the strips are in a hex configuration... once, then farmed them out to others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it shouldbe a piece of cake to accomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues inhand to do the experiment. Art from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Mar 12 15:26:03 2002 g2CLQ2805633 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:26:02 - by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4189. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.988156 secs); 12 Mar 2002 21:26:01 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed --------------020404070207090402030805 Ralph/ Kyle, I believe the model designation has nothing to do with the taper. They are all the same taper , however no 2 are exactly alike because as with most production rods (Leonard included) the sections were made in 4' lengths and trimmed to fit the length. I may be wrong but I do not think so. I have quite a few 7 1/2' Granger Specials which I can also mike if Kyle is interested. Marty Ralph W. Moon wrote: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out for you, but therewerea number of different models.Ralph KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Folks, Many thanks to all who have helped me with taper suggestions. I've gotsomegreat ideas from this list and am working on building the next 6 rods tocompare tapers so I can develop a feel for rod action. I've settled onthesetapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wt rods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613, Granger7'6",Leonard 39DH, Garrison 206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted tocomparerods with different actions ranging from fast, medium fast, to medium,andall of these rods seem to fit this. This is where I need some help. I want to start with the Granger 7'6", butthe tapers I have found in the Howell book and the archives don't line uptoowell with one another. I sure would appreciate some folks providing mewiththis taper from rods they have either built or cast, and have liked it. Thanks for your help! Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------020404070207090402030805 Ralph/ Kyle, I believe the model designation has nothing to do with the taper. aswith most production rods (Leonard included) the sections were made in 4'lengths and trimmed to fit the length. I may be wrong but I do not thinkso. I have quite a few 7 1/2' Granger Specials which I can also mike if Kyleis interested. Marty Ralph W. Moon wrote: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out foryou, but there werea number of different models.RalphKyleDruey@aol.comwrote: Hi Folks,Many thanks to all who have helped me withtaper suggestions. I've got somegreat ideas from this list and amworking on building the next 6 rods tocompare tapers so I can develop afeel for rod action. I've settled on thesetapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wtrods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613, Granger 7'6",Leonard 39DH, Garrison206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted to comparerods with differentactions ranging from fast, medium fast, to medium, andall of these rodsseem to fit this.This is where I need some help. I want to startwith the Granger 7'6", butthe tapers I have found in the Howell book andthe archives don't line up toowell with one another. I sure wouldappreciate some folks providing me withthis taper from rods they haveeither built or cast, and have liked it.Thanks for yourhelp!Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------020404070207090402030805-- from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Mar 12 15:28:06 2002 g2CLS6805900 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:28:06 - by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4189. .Clear:0. Processed in 3.303688 secs); 12 Mar 2002 21:28:05 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed --------------060403000906040306010308 Kyle, The fittings and finish are exactly the same no matter what model. Only difference is cane clarity and wraps. Marty KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Ralph, The way I understand it, and it is very likely I could be wrong, is that thetaper is supposed to be the same regardless of the model for the samelength rod. The Victory, Aristocrat, Deluxe, etc. are all supposed to havethe same taper but different fittings and finish. If this is the case then anymodel would do. If you know this to be different please let me know. Thanks, Kyle In a message dated Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:32:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,"Ralph W. Moon" writes: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out for you, butthere werea number of different models.Ralph KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Folks, Many thanks to all who have helped me with taper suggestions. I've gotsomegreat ideas from this list and am working on building the next 6 rods tocompare tapers so I can develop a feel for rod action. I've settled onthesetapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wt rods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613,Granger 7'6",Leonard 39DH, Garrison 206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted tocomparerods with different actions ranging from fast, medium fast, to medium,andall of these rods seem to fit this. This is where I need some help. I want to start with the Granger 7'6", butthe tapers I have found in the Howell book and the archives don't line uptoowell with one another. I sure would appreciate some folks providing mewiththis taper from rods they have either built or cast, and have liked it. Thanks for your help! Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------060403000906040306010308 Kyle, The fittings and finish are exactly the same no matter what model.Only difference is cane clarity and wraps. Marty KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Ralph,The way I understand it, and it is very likely Icould be wrong, is that the taper is supposed to be the same regardless ofthe model for the same length rod. The Victory, Aristocrat, Deluxe, etc. areall supposed to have the same taper but different fittings and finish. If thisis the case then any model would do. If you know this to be different pleaselet me know.Thanks,KyleIn a message dated Tue, writes: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out foryou, but there werea number of different models.RalphKyleDruey@aol.comwrote: Hi Folks,Many thanks to all who have helped me withtaper suggestions. I've got somegreat ideas from this list and amworking on building the next 6 rods tocompare tapers so I can develop afeel for rod action. I've settled on thesetapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wtrods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613, Granger 7'6",Leonard 39DH, Garrison206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted to comparerods with differentactions ranging from fast, medium fast, to medium, andall of these rodsseem to fit this.This is where I need some help. I want to startwith the Granger 7'6", butthe tapers I have found in the Howell book andthe archives don't line up toowell with one another. I sure wouldappreciate some folks providing me withthis taper from rods they haveeither built or cast, and have liked it.Thanks for yourhelp!Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------060403000906040306010308-- from rmoon@ida.net Tue Mar 12 15:28:21 2002 g2CLSK805969 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:28:20 - 0000 Subject: Re: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed --------------E89B6314D8053801653904E0 Hi I guess it is mic not mike sorry about that-- http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------E89B6314D8053801653904E0 --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------E89B6314D8053801653904E0-- from bob@downandacross.com Tue Mar 12 15:53:19 2002 g2CLrH807761 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:53:17 - Subject: RE: Grand experiment Aha, I was under the impression that the quads were built to the samenumbers and not converted. I think we have decided that the .93 conversiondoes not really work. At least my finding and John Z's and Bob Nunley's seemto show that the butt section should be tapered down further, more like .90to not feel overly stiff.If they were converted, then what was the point of building rods to the sametaper?I think I need to renew the subscription now and check this out.Thanks,Bob -----Original Message----- TSmithwick@aol.com Subject: Grand experiment Bob - I went to Ron Kusse's site and looked at the diagram.I thinkhe is right, the power of the quad is explained by the broad faceof power fibers in the casting plane. What he does not tell you, isthat the mathmatical conversion from hex to quad is .93. Thereforethe outer face of a quad is 7% closer to the centerline of the rod.I think this explains the initially slower feel on rods that areconverted this way from hex tapers. BUT, it is not the initialspeed of the rod that determines line speed, it is the speed of therod when loaded. The advantage of the quad is that they tend toshrug off load, just as Kusse's diagram suggests. finally let meemphasize that the grand experiment involved mathmatical conversionas the ground rule. If you gave the Warra taper to an experiencedquad builder like Mr. Zimny, and gave him the freedom to modify itinto something more suited to a quad, I have a feeling he wouldsend the rest of us off the casting pond and back to the proverbi!al drawing board. from bob@downandacross.com Tue Mar 12 16:36:45 2002 g2CMai810106 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:36:44 - Subject: RE: Grand experiment Bill:That makes perfect sense. What hold up a building, the floor beams or thevertical supports?Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Grand experiment In a quad, a still greater strength (when flexing) develops alongand within the two outer SIDES of the rod. from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Mar 12 16:57:36 2002 g2CMvZ811263 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:57:35 - by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4189. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.744211 secs); 12 Mar 2002 22:57:34 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: A pair of 71/2' Grangers Here are the dimensions for a 7 1/2' Goodwin Granger Special and a W/M Granger Special. The dimensions are not even close but both rods cast a DT4 to dream about. Measured over varnish (deduct .004" ) Taper has a jump at the ferrule that would require averaging or a special ferrule (granger style). Marty DeSapio Goodwin Granger Special 7 1/2' W/M Granger Special 7 1/2'Tip Mid Butt Tip Mid Butt00 .068 .164 .240 .072 .162 .24005 .083 .174 .246 .082 .174 .25110 .094 .185 .256 .097 .191 .26315 .109 .197 .270 .113 .200 .28020 .124 .209 .281 @ 18" start of swell .129 .209 .282 @18" SOS25 .144 .213 .327 @ 20 1/2" start of grip .145 .217 .330 @20 1/2"30 .146 .225 under grip .150 .226 under grip from KyleDruey@aol.com Tue Mar 12 17:04:09 2002 g2CN49811849 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:04:09 - MAILINID118-0312180350; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:03:50 -0500 Subject: Re: A pair of 71/2' Grangers Marty, The Goodwin Granger taper would be the period before Wright & McGill wasinvolved? Is there a real or perceived difference in the quality and/orperformance of the GG rods before W&M? Thanks again you Marty and Ralph for providing these tapers! They would begreat additions for online hexrod. Kyle In a message dated Tue, 12 Mar 2002 5:58:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,"Marty D." writes: Here are the dimensions for a 7 1/2' Goodwin Granger Special and a W/M Granger Special. The dimensions are not even close but both rods cast a DT4 to dream about. Measured over varnish (deduct .004" ) Taper has a jump at the ferrule that would require averaging or a special ferrule (granger style). Marty DeSapio Goodwin Granger Special 7 1/2' W/M Granger Special 7 1/2'Tip Mid Butt Tip Mid Butt00 .068 .164 .240 .072 .162 .24005 .083 .174 .246 .082 .174 .25110 .094 .185 .256 .097 .191 .26315 .109 .197 .270 .113 .200 .28020 .124 .209 .281 @ 18" start of swell .129 .209 .282 @18" SOS25 .144 .213 .327 @ 20 1/2" start of grip .145 .217 .330 @20 1/2"30 .146 .225 under grip .150 .226 under grip from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Mar 12 17:16:44 2002 g2CNGh812634 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:16:43 - by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4189. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.680876 secs); 12 Mar 2002 23:16:43 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: 7 1/2' Grangers (try again) Goodwin Granger Special 7 1/2' #4tip mid butt00 .068 .164 .24005 .083 .174 .24610 .094 .185 .25615 .109 .197 .27020 .124 .209 .281 @ 18" start of swell25 .144 .213 .327 @ 20 1/2" start of grip30 .146 .225 under grip W/M Granger Special 7 1/2' #4tip mid butt00 .072 .162 .24005 .082 .174 .25110 .097 .191 .26315 .113 .200 .28020 .129 .209 .282 @ 18" start of swell25 .145 .217 .330 @ 20 1/2" start of grip30 .150 .226 under gripMarty DeSapio from jojo@ipa.net Tue Mar 12 18:13:16 2002 g2D0DF815014 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:13:15 -0600 helo=default) id 16kwO5-0003XB-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:13:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation But what about differences in binder thread, amount of tension of the =thread, number of threads, amount of beer intake per rodmaker, etc.,? M-D Patrick,Could it be done as simply as running lots of short strips through =thickness planer, then gluing them up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' ( face =to face), then extrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex form, the =way Ray Gould said he figures his glue swell? That would certainly be =less time- consuming than making actual rod sections! Also a lot easier =to mic before gluing up, not having to worry about how tight the strips =are in a hex configuration...If one guy ran them all through his own planer at once, then =farmed them out to others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it should be a =piece of cake to accomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues in = Art But what about = thread, amount of tension of the thread, number of threads, amount of = intake per rodmaker, etc.,? M-D arthur =port Patrick, strips through thickness planer, then gluing them up a la the "Poor = Quad' ( face to face), then extrapolating that thickness of glue to a = form, the way Ray Gould said he figures his glue swell? That would = be less time-consuming than making actual rod sections! Also a lot = mic before gluing up, not having to worry about how tight the strips = hex configuration... once, then farmed them out to others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it = a piece of cake to accomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues = to do the experiment. Art from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Mar 12 18:18:57 2002 g2D0It816090 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:18:55 - Subject: Re: Grand experiment In a message dated 3/12/2 8:30:26 PM, harms1@pa.net writes: Bill - If you are waiting for me to explain this, you are going backwards. I am completely baffled. I hope someone will come along and help us out. from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Mar 12 18:23:52 2002 g2D0Np817092 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:23:51 - by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4189. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.752739 secs); 13 Mar 2002 00:23:51 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: 7 1/2' Grangers (try again) The actions are Medium Fast leaning a bit more toward Fast. In 7 1/2' the actions feel very similar from GG to W/M. In 8' I like the W/M action better. Seems to have a bit more of what is refered to as "balls". Marty Jeff Schaeffer wrote: Thanks for posting those. Would you mind describing the actions, and howthey differ?Which is your favorite? Jeff Schaeffer from channer@frontier.net Tue Mar 12 18:38:14 2002 g2D0cE819447 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:38:14 - for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:38:14 - Subject: Re: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed Guys;What you need to determine the taper is the model NUMBER, notneccessarily the name, such as 9050, which indicated a 9' rod weighing 5ounces, the numbers you need for this particular rod will be 76something something. Unfortunately, that's a s far as my limitedknowledge of Granger tapers will take me. I think there's a couple inHoweel's book, I could look if you'ld like.john "Ralph W. Moon" wrote: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out for you, but therewerea number of different models.Ralph KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Folks, Many thanks to all who have helped me with taper suggestions. I've gotsomegreat ideas from this list and am working on building the next 6 rods tocompare tapers so I can develop a feel for rod action. I've settled onthesetapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wt rods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613,Granger 7'6",Leonard 39DH, Garrison 206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted tocomparerods with different actions ranging from fast, medium fast, to medium,andall of these rods seem to fit this. This is where I need some help. I want to start with the Granger 7'6", butthe tapers I have found in the Howell book and the archives don't line uptoowell with one another. I sure would appreciate some folks providing mewiththis taper from rods they have either built or cast, and have liked it. Thanks for your help! Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from bob@downandacross.com Tue Mar 12 19:08:53 2002 g2D18q823054 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:08:52 - 12 Mar 2002 20:08:45 -0500 Subject: RE: Grand experiment Tom:So then what was the point of the experiment? Was it to see if convertedquad and pentas feel like a hex rod? I thought it was to build all the rodsto exactly the same numbers and see if the geometry or hollow building or 2or 3 piece configuartions change the way they cast. I re-read the PlaningForm from Nov/Dec 1999 and it does not say they would be convertinganything.I have several rods here that exhibit exactly your observation that the quadand hex of equal dimensions will show the quad to be a heavier line weight.I have thought about it way more than I want to, and said way too muchalready all the time hoping not to offend John or anyone else involved.Would not the point of the experiment to be that when the quad and pentaarebuilt to the same exact numbers, that they are proven stiffer? If thenumbers are not the same exact ones, what is the control element of theexperiment? If they are not built to the exact same numbers, then what dothey have in common other than that they are 7'6" in length?Respectfully,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: RE: Grand experiment In a message dated 3/12/2 9:54:03 PM, bob@downandacross.com writes: Bob - Think about that a bit. If you built them to the same flat to flatdimension, the quad would have 7% more material in it, and probablybe a lineweight heavier. Is that the same taper? from bob@downandacross.com Tue Mar 12 19:27:39 2002 g2D1Rc823743 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:27:38 - Subject: RE: Grand experiment, my post Tom:I want to apologize to you and the list. My last post sounded quiteconfrontational when I reread it. I do not mean to offend anyone, especiallynot you, Tom.This has been a very interesting thread, and I don't want to ruin it. Yourcomments are always packed with insight and the voice of experience. Myverbose response was meant to help me better understand the issues, nottogo out of my way to disagree with you.Best regards,Bob from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Tue Mar 12 19:45:24 2002 g2D1jN824474 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:45:23 -0600 0000 Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation If you cut a section into 3" or 6" lengths the binding will still not =be able to be done as is typical. Yes you could bind by hand but you =would have to bind - measure - unbind - glue - scrape - sand - measure =in order to get the results. We all cut of the ends of the sections we are working on, which are =glued up using our process and selected adhesives. If someone has a =means of sectioning these cutoffs and then using a microscope with an =occular micrometer, we could actually measure the glue and not the =results of the scraping and sanding. I don't have a quick method of =doing this but I am sectioning a cutoff tonight and will sweet-talk my = KurtNixa, MO-----Original Message-----From: Coffey, Patrick W ; 'Adam Vigil' ; =dmanders@telusplanet.net ; =rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation in order to see what the affect would be on a rod I think that you =would have to glue them un in a hex. All it would take is 6 strips 6' =long cut into 3" pieces and glued up. -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:30 PM dmanders@telusplanet.net; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Patrick,Could it be done as simply as running lots of short strips =through thickness planer, then gluing them up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' =( face to face), then extrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex =form, the way Ray Gould said he figures his glue swell? That would =certainly be less time- consuming than making actual rod sections! Also a =lot easier to mic before gluing up, not having to worry about how tight =the strips are in a hex configuration...If one guy ran them all through his own planer at once, then =farmed them out to others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it should be a =piece of cake to accomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues in = Art If you cut a section into 3"or = results. We all cut of the ends of the sections we are = has a means of sectioning these cutoffs and then using a microscope with = occular micrometer, we could actually measure the glue and not the = am sectioning a cutoff tonight and will sweet-talk my way into the lab = KurtNixa, MO -----Original = dmanders@telusplanet.net= ; rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= Tuesday, March 12, 2002 2:43 PMSubject: RE: Was = increases, Now Experimentation order to see what the affect would be on a rod I think that you = to glue them un in a hex. All it would take is 6 strips 6' long cut = 3" pieces and glued up. Patrick W. = AOG Incident Repair = Phone: 425-234-2901 = 61-79 = dmanders@telusplanet.net; = Was Dimension increases, Now =ExperimentationPatrick, short strips through thickness planer, then gluing them up a la = thickness of glue to a hex form, the way Ray Gould said he = glue swell? That would certainly be less time-consuming than = actual rod sections! Also a lot easier to mic before gluing up, = configuration... at once, then farmed them out to others to glue, pre- and = should be a piece of cake to accomplish. That way no one would = fifty glues in hand to do the experiment. Art from dmanders@telusplanet.net Tue Mar 12 20:03:11 2002 g2D23A825085 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:03:10 -0600 (InterMail vM.5.01.04.01 201-253-122-122-101-20011014) with Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:02:56 -0700 Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Guys, Have watched this one with interest. I guess someone will have to coordinate, others do the work and a thirddo the write up for one of the publications - either Planing Form orPower Fibers. We need to understand just how this is to be done. Like Martin Darryl says - how do we get conformity? Any ideas? Further, the test samples should be long enough to test for resistance tobending. There seems to be some agreement that different glues havegreater resistance to bending. Would be neat to look @ this @ the sametime. Too bad we can't meet over a beer and sort it out. regards, Don At 03:30 PM 3/12/02 -0500, arthur port wrote: Patrick, Could it be done as simply as running lots of short strips throughthickness planer, then gluing them up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' ( faceto face), then extrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex form, theway Ray Gould said he figures his glue swell? That would certainly beless time-consuming than making actual rod sections! Also a lot easier tomic before gluing up, not having to worry about how tight the strips arein a hex configuration... If one guy ran them all through his own planer at once, then farmedthem out to others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it should be a piece ofcake to accomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues in hand to dothe experiment. Art ffff,0000,0000http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from jojo@ipa.net Tue Mar 12 20:40:08 2002 g2D2e7829355 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:40:07 -0600 helo=default) id 16kygP-0002J6-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:40:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation I think if we could each use strips from one culm, from one section on thatculm, and decide upondimension for length and depth, and strive to hold that depth to O .0005,each of us could do yourown glue-up tests, and record the dimensions using a micrometer. Of course,there would be somepossible discrepancy between the V-block and calipers, and the micrometer.Then we have to considerthe removal of the residual glue from the surface, and what effect thismight have on the finisheddimensions. Plus, we'd need to protect the glued-up pieces from gainingmoisture afterwards, atleast prior to measuring them. Once we had accomplished this, all of themcould be sent to oneperson with the know- how and equipment who could do the mechanicaltesting. Another problem is thetype of heat treatment in use. Since everyone uses a different method thiswould have some effect onthe mechanical outcome. What do you think, guys? M-D Guys, Have watched this one with interest.I guess someone will have to coordinate, others do the work and a third dothe write up for one ofthe publications - either Planing Form or Power Fibers.We need to understand just how this is to be done.Like Martin-Darrell says - how do we get conformity?Any ideas?Further, the test samples should be long enough to test for resistance tobending. There seems to besome agreement that different glues have greater resistance to bending.Would be neat to look @ this@ the same time.Too bad we can't meet over a beer and sort it out. regards, Don At 03:30 PM 3/12/02 -0500, arthur port wrote: Patrick,Could it be done as simply as running lots of short strips through thicknessplaner, then gluingthem up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' ( face to face), then extrapolating thatthickness of glue to ahex form, the way Ray Gould said he figures his glue swell? That wouldcertainly be lesstime- consuming than making actual rod sections! Also a lot easier to micbefore gluing up, nothaving to worry about how tight the strips are in a hex configuration...If one guy ran them all through his own planer at once, then farmed them outto others to glue, pre-and post-mic, it should be a piece of cake to accomplish. That way no onewould need fifty glues inhand to do the experiment.Art from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Mar 12 20:43:23 2002 g2D2hK800025 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:43:20 -0600 Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Most important if you do this to establish the theory first in case the field results come out as you expect, or don't expect which ever you prefer [:-)] Tony At 08:38 PM 3/12/02 -0600, Jojo DeLancier wrote: I think if we could each use strips from one culm, from one section on that culm, and decide upondimension for length and depth, and strive to hold that depth to O >.0005,each of us could do yourown glue-up tests, and record the dimensions using a micrometer. Of course, there would be somepossible discrepancy between the V-block and calipers, and the micrometer. Then we have to considerthe removal of the residual glue from the surface, and what effect this might have on the finisheddimensions. Plus, we'd need to protect the glued-up pieces from gaining moisture afterwards, atleast prior to measuring them. Once we had accomplished this, all of them could be sent to oneperson with the know- how and equipment who could do the mechanical testing. Another problem is thetype of heat treatment in use. Since everyone uses a different method this would have some effect onthe mechanical outcome. What do you think, guys? M-D /**************************************************************************/ AV YoungVisit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html This is the Way for men who want to learn my strategy:Perceive those things which cannot be seen.Pay attention even to trifles. Myamoto Musashi/**************************************************************************/ from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Mar 12 20:50:27 2002 g2D2oQ801087 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:50:26 -0600 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Last rod Hi all,no I didn't mean this will be my last rod!! How gullible areyou guys anyway?? ;^) As if.....I meant to say that this will (more than likely) be the last rodI will probably get to build until I get back from my 3 month deploymentwith the forces.The rod I just finished will be for the casting tournament onthis Friday, and yes I did cave in and build another short rod againthis year, had every intention of building a 7 1/2 to 8 footer just forthis but I guess I'll be under gunned again this year! It's a nicelittle PHY midge with a couple tweaks here and there. All Bellingerhardware and Pearsalls Orange/black jasper. Nice Stick, I will be takinga Dickerson 6611 with Rattan grip as well, just in case I need a biggerrod...LOL!!!As the time to leave inches nearer I dread having to unsubscribe perhaps even visit one or two of you if I can and hope that I might beable to grab a chat in the chat room from time to time.Shawn from bob@downandacross.com Tue Mar 12 20:58:35 2002 g2D2wY802214 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:58:34 -0600 Subject: RE: Last rod Shawn:Good luck in your deployment. You armed forces guys really do serve anoftenunnoticed or underappreciated role. Thanks for helping keep that great whitenorthern border safe. Come visit Joe, Doug, and I if you are down our way.We'd love to fish with you.Stay lucky,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Last rod Hi all,no I didn't mean this will be my last rod!! How gullible areyou guys anyway?? ;^) As if.....I meant to say that this will (more than likely) be the last rodI will probably get to build until I get back from my 3 month deploymentwith the forces.The rod I just finished will be for the casting tournament onthis Friday, and yes I did cave in and build another short rod againthis year, had every intention of building a 7 1/2 to 8 footer just forthis but I guess I'll be under gunned again this year! It's a nicelittle PHY midge with a couple tweaks here and there. All Bellingerhardware and Pearsalls Orange/black jasper. Nice Stick, I will be takinga Dickerson 6611 with Rattan grip as well, just in case I need a biggerrod...LOL!!!As the time to leave inches nearer I dread having to unsubscribe perhaps even visit one or two of you if I can and hope that I might beable to grab a chat in the chat room from time to time.Shawn from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Mar 12 21:04:18 2002 g2D34H802936 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:04:17 - Subject: RE: Grand experiment, my post In a message dated 3/13/2 1:27:56 AM, bob@downandacross.com writes: Bob - There is no problem, we are just talking about two different things. I admit to still being confused as to how to exactly translate a hex to a quad. There is something definitely non linear going on. My own experience has been with light rods, and they want to be a bit heavier than the .93 conversion to feel about the same. Others, including John Z have said heavier butts should be reduced some when converting. I respect their opinions, but have not experienced the same thing yet, and should probably get busy to bring myself up to speed. This is real hair splitting, but I think that the issue is not that the quad gets stronger in heavier sections, but that the hex gets weaker faster. I think this is due to the drop off in density of cane having more effect in the hex section. In the end, it makes no difference how you think about it, you arrive at the taper empirically, and the numbers are what they are. Right now, we have enough data about hexagonal rods to use the various programs and get close to what we want. We aren't there yet withquad tapers, so don't feel alone in your frustration. from rfjoinery@creativequest.com Tue Mar 12 22:03:38 2002 g2D43b809432 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:03:37 - (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) Subject: overcooked strips? I tried tempering some short strips in wife's home oven to learn how tosplice nodeless strips. Oven has recently been calibrated by the Amanaservice guy, and it's certified "close enough for Betty Crocker." I tried375* 15 minutes, then turned down to 200* for 12 minutes. Next morningwhenI went to plane these for splices, found these strips are hard!! Bevelingjust one for a splice and the plane's edge is shot, beveled two and the irondoesn't even cut! Good irons, Hock, LN, even a Hock cryo. Is this fromover-baking? I did try breaking one of these strips, they don't snap easily, it took realeffort, and it breaks into a spray of fine splintered ends, not justsnapping in two. So I wouldn't say they're charcoal. Not much color changein the unflamed strips. Have one of Bret's ovens on order, but hasn't arrived yet. How does oneevaluate the results of a tempering schedule, short of completing the rod? from rextutor@yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 22:57:50 2002 g2D4vn812856 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:57:49 - 12 Mar 2002 20:57:48 PST Subject: Re: overcooked strips? When I have over cooked them they were easier to plane- they results were not shavings but fus like rippedcloth. I usually cook them 4 minutes on each side at 375. Iam guessing that I over cooked them 15 mintes . The cane was noodles and not usable. Good luck --- Rick Funcik wrote: I tried tempering some short strips in wife's homeoven to learn how tosplice nodeless strips. Oven has recently beencalibrated by the Amanaservice guy, and it's certified "close enough forBetty Crocker." I tried375* 15 minutes, then turned down to 200* for 12minutes. Next morning whenI went to plane these for splices, found thesestrips are hard!! Bevelingjust one for a splice and the plane's edge is shot,beveled two and the irondoesn't even cut! Good irons, Hock, LN, even a Hockcryo. Is this fromover-baking? I did try breaking one of these strips, they don'tsnap easily, it took realeffort, and it breaks into a spray of finesplintered ends, not justsnapping in two. So I wouldn't say they're charcoal.Not much color changein the unflamed strips. Have one of Bret's ovens on order, but hasn'tarrived yet. How does oneevaluate the results of a tempering schedule, shortof completing the rod? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from rextutor@yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 22:58:52 2002 g2D4wp813011 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:58:51 -0600 12 Mar 2002 20:58:50 PST Subject: Re: Last rod "rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu" Good luck out in the field Keep your head down. --- Shawn Pineo wrote: Hi all,no I didn't mean this will be my last rod!!How gullible areyou guys anyway?? ;^) As if.....I meant to say that this will (more thanlikely) be the last rodI will probably get to build until I get back frommy 3 month deploymentwith the forces.The rod I just finished will be for thecasting tournament onthis Friday, and yes I did cave in and build anothershort rod againthis year, had every intention of building a 7 1/2to 8 footer just forthis but I guess I'll be under gunned again thisyear! It's a nicelittle PHY midge with a couple tweaks here andthere. All Bellingerhardware and Pearsalls Orange/black jasper. NiceStick, I will be takinga Dickerson 6611 with Rattan grip as well, just incase I need a biggerrod...LOL!!!As the time to leave inches nearer I dreadhaving to unsubscribe a line occasionally,perhaps even visit one or two of you if I can andhope that I might beable to grab a chat in the chat room from time totime.Shawn __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!http://mail.yahoo.com/ from Troy.Miller@BakerOilTools.com Tue Mar 12 23:07:59 2002 g2D57w813469 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:07:58 - (bhihdcimc01.bakerhughes.com [204.253.245.34] (may be forged)) (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:52:31 -0600 Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Howdy Don -- Now you're talkin! And while we do these stiffness tests, we should also doanother set of tests. Here's what I'd do if I had all my "stuff" together: Take six strips and straight bevel them to precise half diameters. Tapeinto hex bundle. Cut them into foot long pieces. Glue up, using light,medium, and heavy tension, (resulting in thick, medium, and thin gluelines). Heat set glue and scrape/sand uniformly as possible. Mic thesections and compare flat-to- flat measurements. The OD's will hopefully allbe different, based on the thread tension applied. Make a jig which willhold a glued section by the ends, and pull up on the center of the sectionusing an appropriate tension as measured on a repeatable spring scale orstrain gauge . Measure the deflection from the resting position. Do this much the stiffness varies by OD. The amount of power fibers will beconstant in each of the specimens, but the geometry of the glued sectionswill vary. I would probably then repeat the experiment, but keep the OD the same and adjust the strip measurements and glue line width. Like, all the OD's wouldbe .250. But on specimen #1, the strips are all .123, and thin glue lines.Specimen #2, the strips are all .121, and medium glue lines. Specimen #3would have strips .119, and thick glue lines. OD of the section, or in the thickness of the glue line itself, has a moresignificant impact on the stiffness of a unit section of blank. Next time Iam up to Bob's, I think I'll try to twist his arm into helping with anotherexperiment.... Suggestions to make this a more worthwhile and valid effort?TAM -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Guys, Have watched this one with interest. I guess someone will have to coordinate, others do the work and a third dothe write up for one of the publications - either Planing Form or PowerFibers. We need to understand just how this is to be done. Like Martin Darryl says - how do we get conformity? Any ideas? Further, the test samples should be long enough to test for resistance tobending. There seems to be some agreement that different glues havegreaterresistance to bending. Would be neat to look @ this @ the same time. Too bad we can't meet over a beer and sort it out. regards, Don At 03:30 PM 3/12/02 -0500, arthur port wrote: Patrick, Could it be done as simply as running lots of short strips through thicknessplaner, then gluing them up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' ( face to face), thenextrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex form, the way Ray Gould saidhe figures his glue swell? That would certainly be less time- consuming thanmaking actual rod sections! Also a lot easier to mic before gluing up, nothaving to worry about how tight the strips are in a hex configuration... If one guy ran them all through his own planer at once, then farmed them outto others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it should be a piece of cake toaccomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues in hand to do theexperiment. Art Fromfbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Mar 12 23:23:15 2002 g2D5NE814030 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:23:14 - (authenticated) Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:23:11 -0800 Subject: Ray Gould's Granddaughter Kirsten Friends, Through the grapevine I learned some terribly sad news tonight. RayGould's granddaughter Kirsten, for whom many of us have prayed, and whosecancer was mentioned on this list a few times, passed away last Thursday.There are no words to express the sadness and loss we feel for Ray and hisfamily. When someone we know and care about hurts, we hurt with them. That'spart of what makes us human. Ray, our thoughts and prayers are with you and Sue, Kevin and Dawn, andthe entire family. What a beautiful girl Kirsten was! What a joy she musthave been to all of you! Treasure the memories of all the smiles and thelaughter, and know that though life will never be the same, someday the painwill not be quite so intense. Kirsten Kathleen Gould Pediatric Cancer Research EndowmentChildren's Hospital Foundation P.O. Box 5371, CL-04Seattle, WA. 98105-0371 Kirsten's obituary from the Seattle newspaper may be read by scrollingdown through the page listed below.http://classifieds.nwsource.com/classified/passages/b_docs/deaths.html May the God of peace and comfort hold you in the palm of His hand, Reverend Dr. Harry Boyd -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Mar 12 23:46:33 2002 g2D5kW816875 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:46:32 - (authenticated) Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:46:29 -0800 Subject: Re: overcooked strips? Rick, If there isn't much color change, chances are good the strips are okay. Whythey would be so hard and tough is something of a mystery to me. Are the shavings long and smooth, or do they crumble as soon as they getabove the blade?How much cane are you removing in each pass? I find that it's difficult toremove more than .005" per pass with even the sharpest of blades.At what angle are the blades sharpened? If the angle is less than 30*,thatmight explain premature wear and tear. Not sure if any of these questions are relevant, just trying to come upwithsome answers. How does one evaluate heat-treating methods? That's a $64K question ifeverthere was one. Harry Rick Funcik wrote: Next morning whenI went to plane these for splices, found these strips are hard!! Bevelingjust one for a splice and the plane's edge is shot, beveled two and the irondoesn't even cut! Good irons, Hock, LN, even a Hock cryo. Is this fromover-baking? -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from horsesho@ptd.net Wed Mar 13 05:20:06 2002 g2DBK5824363 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 05:20:05 - by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4189. .Clear:0. Processed in 0.908131 secs); 13 Mar 2002 11:20:05 -0000 sender ) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed --------------040206020703010201040309 Guys, John is correct for 9' and 9 1/2' Grangers. In those sizes they made a couple different models. They only made one model in sizes 7', 7 1/2', 8', and 8 1/2'. Marty channer wrote: Guys;What you need to determine the taper is the model NUMBER, notneccessarily the name, such as 9050, which indicated a 9' rod weighing 5ounces, the numbers you need for this particular rod will be 76something something. Unfortunately, that's a s far as my limitedknowledge of Granger tapers will take me. I think there's a couple inHoweel's book, I could look if you'ld like.john "Ralph W. Moon" wrote: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out for you, butthere werea number of different models.Ralph KyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Folks, Many thanks to all who have helped me with taper suggestions. I've gotsomegreat ideas from this list and am working on building the next 6 rods tocompare tapers so I can develop a feel for rod action. I've settled onthesetapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wt rods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613,Granger 7'6",Leonard 39DH, Garrison 206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted tocomparerods with different actions ranging from fast, medium fast, to medium,andall of these rods seem to fit this. This is where I need some help. I want to start with the Granger 7'6", butthe tapers I have found in the Howell book and the archives don't line uptoowell with one another. I sure would appreciate some folks providing mewiththis taper from rods they have either built or cast, and have liked it. Thanks for your help! Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------040206020703010201040309 madea couple different models. They only made one model in sizes 7', 7 1/2', channer wrote: Guys;What you need to determine the taper is the modelNUMBER, notneccessarily the name, such as 9050, which indicated a 9'rod weighing 5ounces, the numbers you need for this particular rod willbe 76something something. Unfortunately, that's a s far as mylimitedknowledge of Granger tapers will take me. I think there's a coupleinHoweel's book, I could look if you'ld like.john"Ralph W.Moon" wrote: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out foryou, but there werea number of different models.RalphKyleDruey@aol.comwrote: Hi Folks,Many thanks to all who have helped me withtaper suggestions. I've got somegreat ideas from this list and amworking on building the next 6 rods tocompare tapers so I can develop afeel for rod action. I've settled on thesetapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wtrods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613, Granger 7'6",Leonard 39DH, Garrison206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted to comparerods with differentactions ranging from fast, medium fast, to medium, andall of these rodsseem to fit this.This is where I need some help. I want to startwith the Granger 7'6", butthe tapers I have found in the Howell book andthe archives don't line up toowell with one another. I sure wouldappreciate some folks providing me withthis taper from rods they haveeither built or cast, and have liked it.Thanks for yourhelp!Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------040206020703010201040309-- from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Wed Mar 13 05:52:28 2002 g2DBqR825002 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 05:52:27 - 0000 Subject: Wax Since the discussion on the effects of glue on dimensions has morphed =into a $500,000 federal project I thought I'd pose a simpler question. =(I am putting a secion under a scope today) What is a good brand of wax for use in protecting the finish on a rod? KurtNixa, MO Since the discussion on theeffects = dimensions has morphed into a $500,000 federal project I thought I'd = today) What is a good brand of wax foruse = protecting the finish on a rod? KurtNixa,MO from Lazybee45@aol.com Wed Mar 13 06:02:04 2002 g2DC23825296 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:02:03 - Subject: Re: Ray Gould's Granddaughter Kirsten Ray: I am truely sorry to hear of your granddaughter. There is no way to say anything to make it heal, except that our prayers are with you. mark visit Wood Art Custom Designs http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html Hand crafted items made to order! from wendt@kingcrab.nrl.navy.mil Wed Mar 13 06:13:54 2002 g2DCDs825616 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:13:54 - g2DCDhdd017894 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:13:44 - Subject: Re: Last rod Shawn, Good luck and good hunting..... Mark At 10:42 PM 3/12/02 -0500, you wrote: Hi all,no I didn't mean this will be my last rod!! How gullible areyou guys anyway?? ;^) As if.....I meant to say that this will (more than likely) be the last rodI will probably get to build until I get back from my 3 month deploymentwith the forces.The rod I just finished will be for the casting tournament onthis Friday, and yes I did cave in and build another short rod againthis year, had every intention of building a 7 1/2 to 8 footer just forthis but I guess I'll be under gunned again this year! It's a nicelittle PHY midge with a couple tweaks here and there. All Bellingerhardware and Pearsalls Orange/black jasper. Nice Stick, I will be takinga Dickerson 6611 with Rattan grip as well, just in case I need a biggerrod...LOL!!!As the time to leave inches nearer I dread having to unsubscribe perhaps even visit one or two of you if I can and hope that I might beable to grab a chat in the chat room from time to time.Shawn from channer@frontier.net Wed Mar 13 06:52:58 2002 g2DCqw826253 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:52:58 - for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 05:52:51 - Subject: Re: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed Thanks Marty,See, I told you my knowledge of Granger's didn't go very far. It's verystrange, here I am in the heart of Granger country and I have only seena couple and never had one in to refinish.Same goes for Phillipson. Whatline weight is the 8' model for? I need to build an 8'3pc 5wt, wasthinking of the Leonard 50df I measured a few years ago, but theGranger's are interesting,too.john "Marty D." wrote: Guys, John is correct for 9' and 9 1/2' Grangers. In those sizes theymade a couple different models. They only made one model in sizes 7',7 1/2', 8', and 8 1/2'. Marty channer wrote: Guys;What you need to determine the taper is the model NUMBER, notneccessarily the name, such as 9050, which indicated a 9' rodweighing 5ounces, the numbers you need for this particular rod will be 76something something. Unfortunately, that's a s far as my limitedknowledge of Granger tapers will take me. I think there's a coupleinHoweel's book, I could look if you'ld like.john"Ralph W. Moon" wrote: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out for you,but there werea number of different models.RalphKyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Folks,Many thanks to all who have helped me with taper suggestions.I've got somegreat ideas from this list and am working on building the next 6rods tocompare tapers so I can develop a feel for rod action. I'vesettled on thesetapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wt rods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613,Granger 7'6",Leonard 39DH, Garrison 206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted tocomparerods with different actions ranging from fast, medium fast, tomedium, andall of these rods seem to fit this.This is where I need some help. I want to start with the Granger7'6", butthe tapers I have found in the Howell book and the archives don'tline up toowell with one another. I sure would appreciate some folksproviding me withthis taper from rods they have either built or cast, and haveliked it.Thanks for your help!Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from bob@downandacross.com Wed Mar 13 07:03:27 2002 g2DD3Q826582 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:03:26 - 13 Mar 2002 08:03:19 -0500 Subject: RE: Wax Butcher's Brand Bowling Alley Wax seems to be working just fine for me.HomeDepot sells it; it is the white container. I cannot remember who recommendedit, but several on the list have said they have used it for years.Best regards, Bob-----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 6:52 AM Subject: Wax Since the discussion on the effects of glue on dimensions has morphed intoa $500,000 federal project I thought I'd pose a simpler question. (I amputting a secion under a scope today) What is a good brand of wax for use in protecting the finish on a rod? KurtNixa, MO Brand Bowling Alley Wax seems to be working just fine for me. Home Depot = it; it is the white container. I cannot remember who recommended it, but = on the list have said they have used it for years. regards, Bob ClementSent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 6:52 = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject:WaxSince the discussion on the effects of glue on = has morphed into a $500,000 federal project I thought I'd pose a = today) What is a good brand of wax for use in protecting = on a rod? KurtNixa,MO from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Mar 13 07:24:23 2002 g2DDOM827236 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:24:22 - for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:24:12 - Subject: Kirsten Gould List,Ray and I shared many things between us about Kirsty and her fight with cancer and it is with great sorrow that this news about her passing has come to the list. I know that Ray and his family are really hurting right now as death of a loved one is never easy no matter the circumstances. A numberof you know that he and I talked between us on how she was doing and I shared this with the list many times on her progress with the fight. I can't count how many of you asked me off list of any news I had on how things weregoing. know now it was not to be so. Whenever he would give me updates or going back to when he first told me about Kirsten's cancer I always asked him if I could share this with the list, because I feel we are a family on here. Now I know some of us on the list know Ray personally and some just fromthe list. I never met him but I feel he is one of my good friends and he always will be. I hope that in some small way we all show Ray and his family that we care and are grieving for them. There is an address to sendcontributions to in Kirsten's name below for anyone that wants to do so. Kirsten Kathleen Gould Pediatric Cancer Research EndowmentChildren's Hospital Foundation P.O. Box 5371, CL-04Seattle, WA. 98105-0371 Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ List,Ray and I shared many things between us about Kirsty and her fight withcancer and it is with great sorrow that this news about her passing has come number of you know that he and I talked between us on how she was doingand I shared this with the list many times on her progress with the Whenever he would give me updates or going back to when he first told meabout Kirsten's cancer I always asked him if I could share this with the list, Now I know some of us on the list know Ray personally and some just from send contributions to in Kirsten's name below for anyone that wants to do Kirsten Kathleen Gould Pediatric Cancer Research EndowmentChildren's Hospital Foundation P.O. Box 5371, CL-04Seattle, WA. 98105-0371 Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Mar 13 07:28:25 2002 g2DDSP827505 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:28:25 - Subject: Re: Wax rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I have used Butchers wax on my rods for over 30 years and I think JackYoung recommended it to me http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ I have used Butcherswax on my rods for over 30 years and I think Jack Young recommended it tome http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ from harms1@pa.net Wed Mar 13 07:53:13 2002 g2DDrC828274 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:53:12 - Subject: Re: Grand experiment, my post Tom, Well I surely don't know either, but if there is any merit to the theory Iposted yesterday about the "cone of plasticity" that develops along theouter sides of the quad, the non-linear nature of a quad's strength may beexplained. In which case, we could assume that the quad picks up strengthwith cross- sectional mass in a way that is different from the abilities of ahex to benefit from equal additions of cross-sectional mass. Still wondering,Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Grand experiment, my post In a message dated 3/13/2 1:27:56 AM, bob@downandacross.com writes: confrontational when I reread it. >> Bob - There is no problem, we are just talking about two different things. I admit to still being confused as to how to exactly translate a hex to a quad. There is something definitely non linear going on. My own experience has been with light rods, and they want to be a bit heavier than the .93 conversion to feel about the same. Others, including John Z have said heavier buttsshould be reduced some when converting. I respect their opinions, but havenot experienced the same thing yet, and should probably get busy to bringmyself up to speed. This is real hair splitting, but I think that the issue is not that the quad gets stronger in heavier sections, but that the hex gets weaker faster. I think this is due to the drop off in density of cane having more effect in the hex section. In the end, it makes no difference how youthink about it, you arrive at the taper empirically, and the numbers are what they are. Right now, we have enough data about hexagonal rods to use thevarious programs and get close to what we want. We aren't there yet with quad tapers, so don't feel alone in your frustration. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Mar 13 07:54:52 2002 g2DDsp828486 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:54:51 - Subject: Kirsten Gould rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu List,Ray and I shared many things between us about Kirsty and her fight with cancer and it is with great sorrow that this news about her passing has come to the list. I know that Ray and his family are really hurting right now as death of a loved one is never easy no matter the circumstances. A numberof you know that he and I talked between us on how she was doing and I shared this with the list many times on her progress with the fight. I can't count how many of you asked me off list of any news I had on how things weregoing. know now it was not to be so. Whenever he would give me updates or going back to when he first told me about Kirsten's cancer I always asked him if I could share this with the list, because I feel we are a family on here. Now I know some of us on the list know Ray personally and some just fromthe list. I never met him but I feel he is one of my good friends and he always will be. I hope that in some small way we all show Ray and his family that we care and are grieving for them. There is an address to sendcontributions to in Kirsten's name below for anyone that wants to do so. Kirsten Kathleen Gould Pediatric Cancer Research EndowmentChildren's Hospital Foundation P.O. Box 5371, CL-04Seattle, WA. 98105-0371 Bret from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Mar 13 08:01:31 2002 g2DE1U828915 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:01:30 - for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:01:15 - MAILINID57-0313090115; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:01:15 -0500 Subject: penta taper While we are on the geometry thread lets talk pentas for a bit. Like quads,there are few published tapers, unlike the smorgasboard now available forhexes. When I first came on the list a few years back, I published a taper byBill Fink, that Bill still thinks is his best rod. I cast it again Sunday as part of an experiment Bill is working on. The wind was blowing at least 45 MPH, andthe rod was casting straight into it, a heck of a feat for a 4 weight. I don'tthink anyone built the taper back then, but now that the handmill is on thescene, and 5 strip technology is more widespread, would anyone like me todig out the taper and re- post it? BTW, since part of this thread has beenabout the difficulty of coming up with these tapers, we might think a minuteabout guys like Bill, who started building rods 40-50 years ago. Therebasically weren't any 6 strip tapers easily available, nor any information ondesign. They had to start completely from scratch. from jojo@ipa.net Wed Mar 13 08:02:35 2002 g2DE2Y829028 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:02:34 -0600 helo=default) id 16l9Ko-0003CS-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:02:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Wax We had this discussion several months ago, and at the risk of starting =another wax war, the more pedestrian types on the List use Butcher's =Brand Bowling Alley wax, or something named equally obscure and common, =while we effete snobs use Renaissance Wax, by appointment to Her =Majesty, The Queen, of course. M-D Since the discussion on the effects of glue on dimensions has morphed =into a $500,000 federal project I thought I'd pose a simpler question. =(I am putting a secion under a scope today) What is a good brand of wax for use in protecting the finish on a rod? KurtNixa, MO We had this discussion= ago, and at the risk of starting another wax war, the more pedestrian = the List use Butcher's Brand Bowling Alley wax, or something named = obscure and common, while we effete snobs use Renaissance Wax, by = Her Majesty, The Queen, of course. M-D Kurt Clement Since the discussion on the = dimensions has morphed into a $500,000 federal project I thought I'd = today) What is a good brand of wax for = protecting the finish on a rod? KurtNixa, =MO from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed Mar 13 08:12:47 2002 g2DECl829623 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:12:47 - Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation I think an experiment to determine the thickness of variousglue lines, and the bending resistance of the glues, could be done more easily with a medium like baltic birch plywood,in the thinnest grade and cut into small strips. It would beas uniform in thickness as my handplaning anyway, and you wouldn'thave to worry about exact 60 degree angles, which will affectthe final glueup dimensions, probably more than the glue. I'm sure the thickness of glue lines depend somewhat on the builder anyway. Some people just put on more than others,and not all gets squeezed out during binding.========================================================================Frank Stetzer stetzer@uwm.eduSmall Applications Programming Group P.O. Box 413Information and Media Technologies Milwaukee, WI 53201University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee (414)-229-4571 from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Wed Mar 13 08:22:02 2002 g2DEM1800089 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:22:01 -0600 GAA05157; GAA28495; g2DEMGL12899; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:20:58 -0800 aport@si.rr.com "'Adam Vigil'" , rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Some day we ought to find someplace in the U.S. for all of us to gettogether and drink beer and flap our jaws. We all know each otherspersonalities from the emails but it would be nice to put faces to them andbody english also. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Guys, Have watched this one with interest. I guess someone will have to coordinate, others do the work and a third dothe write up for one of the publications - either Planing Form or PowerFibers. We need to understand just how this is to be done. Like Martin Darryl says - how do we get conformity? Any ideas? Further, the test samples should be long enough to test for resistance tobending. There seems to be some agreement that different glues havegreaterresistance to bending. Would be neat to look @ this @ the same time. Too bad we can't meet over a beer and sort it out. regards, Don At 03:30 PM 3/12/02 -0500, arthur port wrote: Patrick, Could it be done as simply as running lots of short strips through thicknessplaner, then gluing them up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' ( face to face), thenextrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex form, the way Ray Gould saidhe figures his glue swell? That would certainly be less time- consuming thanmaking actual rod sections! Also a lot easier to mic before gluing up, nothaving to worry about how tight the strips are in a hex configuration... If one guy ran them all through his own planer at once, then farmed them outto others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it should be a piece of cake toaccomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues in hand to do theexperiment. Art Some day we ought to find someplace in the U.S. for all of us to get together and drink beer and flap our jaws. We all know each others personalities from the emails but it would be nice to put faces to them and body english also. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair Planning 61-79 -----Original Message-----From: Don & SandyAndersen 2002 5:44 patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com; 'Adam Vigil'; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: WasDimension increases, Now ExperimentationGuys, Have watched this one with interest. I guess someone will have to coordinate, others do the work and a thirddo the write up for one of the publications - either Planing Form or Power Fibers. We need to understand just how this is to be done. Like Martin Darryl says - how do we get conformity? Any ideas? Further, the test samples should be long enough to test for resistanceto bending. There seems to be some agreement that different glues havegreater resistance to bending. Would be neat to look @ this @ the same time. Too bad we can't meet over a beer and sort it out. regards, Don At 03:30 PM 3/12/02 -0500, arthur port wrote: Patrick, Could it be done as simply as running lots of short strips through thickness planer, then gluing them up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' ( face to face), then extrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex form, the way Ray Gould said he figures his glue swell? That would certainly be less time- consuming than making actual rod sections! Also a lot easier to mic before gluing up, not having to worry about how tight the strips are in a hex configuration... If one guy ran them all through his own planer at once, then farmed them out to others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it should be a piece of cake to accomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues in hand to do the experiment. Art <<<< http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Wed Mar 13 08:26:59 2002 g2DEQw800620 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:26:58 -0600 Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:26:52 -0800 Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:26:52 GMT Subject: Re: Wax FILETIME=[1EDF5920:01C1CA9B] Martin,Does this mean that you give your rods a Royal Waxing? Jim From: "Jojo DeLancier" Subject: Re: WaxDate: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:01:09 -0600 We had this discussion several months ago, and at the risk of starting another wax war, the more pedestrian types on the List use Butcher'sBrand Bowling Alley wax, or something named equally obscure and common, whilewe effete snobs use Renaissance Wax, by appointment to Her Majesty, TheQueen, of course. M-D From: Kurt Clement Since the discussion on the effects of glue on dimensions has morphed into a $500,000 federal project I thought I'd pose a simpler question. (I am putting a secion under a scope today) What is a good brand of wax for use in protecting the finish on a rod? KurtNixa, MO _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from rmoon@ida.net Wed Mar 13 08:49:39 2002 g2DEnc801904 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:49:38 - 0000 Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Now you have your work cut out for you Troy. When do you start? Ralph "Miller, Troy" wrote: Howdy Don -- Now you're talkin! And while we do these stiffness tests, we should also doanother set of tests. Here's what I'd do if I had all my "stuff" together: Take six strips and straight bevel them to precise half diameters. Tapeinto hex bundle. Cut them into foot long pieces. Glue up, using light,medium, and heavy tension, (resulting in thick, medium, and thin gluelines). Heat set glue and scrape/sand uniformly as possible. Mic thesections and compare flat-to- flat measurements. The OD's will hopefullyallbe different, based on the thread tension applied. Make a jig which willhold a glued section by the ends, and pull up on the center of the sectionusing an appropriate tension as measured on a repeatable spring scale orstrain gauge . Measure the deflection from the resting position. Do this howmuch the stiffness varies by OD. The amount of power fibers will beconstant in each of the specimens, but the geometry of the glued sectionswill vary. I would probably then repeat the experiment, but keep the OD the same andadjust the strip measurements and glue line width. Like, all the OD's wouldbe .250. But on specimen #1, the strips are all .123, and thin glue lines.Specimen #2, the strips are all .121, and medium glue lines. Specimen #3would have strips .119, and thick glue lines. OD of the section, or in the thickness of the glue line itself, has a moresignificant impact on the stiffness of a unit section of blank. Next time Iam up to Bob's, I think I'll try to twist his arm into helping with anotherexperiment.... Suggestions to make this a more worthwhile and valideffort?TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 7:44 PM Cc: patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com; 'Adam Vigil'; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Guys, Have watched this one with interest. I guess someone will have to coordinate, others do the work and a third dothe write up for one of the publications - either Planing Form or PowerFibers. We need to understand just how this is to be done. Like Martin Darryl says - how do we get conformity? Any ideas? Further, the test samples should be long enough to test for resistance tobending. There seems to be some agreement that different glues havegreaterresistance to bending. Would be neat to look @ this @ the same time. Too bad we can't meet over a beer and sort it out. regards, Don At 03:30 PM 3/12/02 -0500, arthur port wrote: Patrick, Could it be done as simply as running lots of short strips through thicknessplaner, then gluing them up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' ( face to face), thenextrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex form, the way Ray Gould saidhe figures his glue swell? That would certainly be less time- consuming thanmaking actual rod sections! Also a lot easier to mic before gluing up, nothaving to worry about how tight the strips are in a hex configuration... If one guy ran them all through his own planer at once, then farmed themoutto others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it should be a piece of cake toaccomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues in hand to do theexperiment. Art http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Mar 13 09:01:59 2002 g2DF1w802812 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:01:59 -0600 (authenticated) Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:01:48 -0800 aport@si.rr.com,"'Adam Vigil'" , rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation --------------628C15376663525C74E1887E Patrick, I suspect that Ralph's Bamboo Symposium inLivingston, Montana this August will be as perfectan opportunity as ever presents itself. I'mtrying to finagle a way to get there myself. Harry "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: Some day we ought to find someplace in the U.S. flap our jaws. We all know each otherspersonalities from the emails but it would benice to put faces to them and body english also. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- --------------628C15376663525C74E1887E Patrick, Livingston,Montana this August will be as perfect an opportunity as ever presents "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: day we ought to find someplace in the U.S. for all of us to get togetherand drink beer and flap our jaws. We all know each others personalities from the emails but it would be nice to put faces to them and body englishalso. -- -- Bamboo Rods -- --------------628C15376663525C74E1887E-- from jerryy@webtv.net Wed Mar 13 09:20:15 2002 g2DFKE804003 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:20:14 - by mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with 2113.public.lawson.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id HAA07230; ETAsAhQJM0QIsQp64oIRhi+2wpgdN8DeBQIUcATji/0u5CekoMagVRHHVZJDE38= Subject: Re: penta taper EST Tom - Now that I have accumulated all of the cutter heads from TomMorgan I would appreciate your posting of the penta. So far I have onlyseen one Uslan and a couple of Irgans tapers. Thanks, Jerry Young from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Mar 13 09:45:15 2002 g2DFjF807026 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:45:15 - for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:44:42 - 0313104441; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:44:41 -0500 Subject: penta taper I'll dig out the taper and post it tonight. from trpgo@msn.com Wed Mar 13 09:55:23 2002 g2DFtM807748 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:55:22 - Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:55:16 -0800 Subject: Fw: One of those days FILETIME=[782870F0:01C1CAA7] Is this a typical rodmakers day? Just a little humor for the list. Tom Subject: Fw: One of those days this = ct: Fw: One of those days 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from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Mar 13 09:56:08 2002 g2DFu7807982 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:56:07 - Subject: Re: Grand experiment Hi to all,I can't help but think that what the Dupont chap was referring to is thatthe stiffness of the cross section of a beam is due to the greater momentofinertia of the vertical parts rather than the horizontal parts. For exampleconsider a 2x6 piece of lumber. If you support the piece on the two ends andload it in the middle it will be much stiffer if the 6" sides are verticalthan if it's turned 90Ÿ and the 2" sides are vertical. That all shows upwhen us engineers calculate that mysterious factor we call the moment ofinertia.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Grand experiment Tom, I heard an interesting explanation of the quad's power this past weekend.I'll try to relay what I can, and then perhaps you and the others who areversed in physics and math can fill in the blanks. Apparently, the "slow" initial feel of the quad is explained by exactly the factors you mentioned here, but the remarkable ability of the quad to "shrug off" its load and keep on firing out the line is a function of what wasexplained to me as the principle of "elastic plasticity" (or, god help me,maybe it's "plastic elasticity"). Now this comes from one of DuPont'sengineers, and the deal is that, in a quad, the real strength comes not somuch from tension/compression of power fibers in the top and bottomsurfaces. In a quad, a still greater strength (when flexing) develops along and within the two outer SIDES of the rod. As I understood what I was told, there is a sort of "cone" of strength that develops along the length of the outer sides when a long, square shape isflexed (a cumulative, plastic resistance to bending that is more than just a function of mass). Since a hexagonal rod does not enjoy broad, flat outersides, the cone of plasticity along its angled, outer sides is dissapated as easily as it is formed. So the strength of a hex rod derives largely fromthe distance the power fibers (and their mass) are away from the centerline. Can anyone elaborate a little on this? I had been pretty clear all along on how a hex rod gains its resistance to the forces of bending, but I had notheard this explanation about the "mystery" of the quad before. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:04 AMSubject: Grand experiment Bob - I went to Ron Kusse's site and looked at the diagram.I think he is right, the power of the quad is explained by the broad face of power fibers in the casting plane. What he does not tell you, is that the mathmaticalconversion from hex to quad is .93. Therefore the outer face of a quad is 7% closer to the centerline of the rod. I think this explains the initiallyslower feel on rods that are converted this way from hex tapers. BUT, it is not the initial speed of the rod that determines line speed, it is the speed of the rod when loaded. The advantage of the quad is that they tend to shrug off load, just as Kusse's diagram suggests. finally let me emphasize thatthe grand experiment involved mathmatical conversion as the ground rule. If you gave the Warra taper to an experienced quad builder like Mr. Zimny, and gave him the freedom to modify it into something more suited to a quad, Ihave a feeling he would send the rest of us off the casting pond and back to the proverbi! al drawing board. from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Mar 13 10:12:30 2002 g2DGCT809282 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:12:29 - Subject: Re: Kirsten Gould Good Morning list,I don't know if I can find the right words to thank all of you for those =wonderful thoughts and prayers about the passing of my beautiful grand =daughter Kirsten. She died peacefully March 7 after a long difficult =battle with a particularly nasty camcer called Ewings Sarcoma. She had =every possible treatment and none worked. Her funeral is today with a =memorial service being held here and then saturday another in =California.There's no way I can adequately express my appreciation to each and = I do hope that I can meet many of you in the future perhaps at the FFF =Conclave and bamboo rod symposium in Livingston Montana where I'll be =helping out. I owe each of you a big hug!Ray Gould Subject: Kirsten Gould List,Ray and I shared many things between us about Kirsty and her fight =with cancer and it is with great sorrow that this news about her passing =has come to the list. I know that Ray and his family are really hurting =right now as death of a loved one is never easy no matter the =circumstances. A number of you know that he and I talked between us on =how she was doing and I shared this with the list many times on her =progress with the fight. I can't count how many of you asked me off =list of any news I had on how things were going. For a while they =thought that things were going to be OK but as well all know now it was =not to be so. Whenever he would give me updates or going back to when =he first told me about Kirsten's cancer I always asked him if I could = Now I know some of us on the list know Ray personally and some just = from the list. I never met him but I feel he is one of my good friends =and he always will be. I hope that in some small way we all show Ray =and his family that we care and are grieving for them. There is an =address to send contributions to in Kirsten's name below for anyone that = Kirsten Kathleen Gould Pediatric Cancer Research EndowmentChildren's Hospital Foundation P.O. Box 5371, CL-04Seattle, WA. 98105-0371 Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ Good Morning list,I don't know if I can find the right = all of you for those wonderful thoughts and prayers about the passing of = difficult battle with a particularly nasty camcer called Ewings Sarcoma. = every possible treatment and none worked. Her funeral is today with a = service being held here and then saturday another in =California.There's no way I can adequatelyexpress = appreciation to each and every one of you but my sincerest thanks come = heart! I do hope that I can meet many of you = perhaps at the FFF Conclave and bamboo rod symposium in Livingston = I'll be helping out. I owe each of you a big hug!Ray Gould ----- Original Message ----- Grhghlndr@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002= AMSubject: Kirsten Gould shared many things between us about Kirsty and her fight with cancer = with great sorrow that this news about her passing has come to the = I know that Ray and his family are really hurting right now as death = know that he and I talked between us on how she was doing and I shared = how many of you asked me off list of any news I had on how things were = or going back to when he first told me about Kirsten's cancer I always = him if I could share this with the list, because I feel we are a = address to send contributions to in Kirsten's name below for anyone = EndowmentChildren's Hospital Foundation P.O. Box 5371, = WA. 98105-0371Brethttp://bretsovens.bravepages.c=om/ from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Wed Mar 13 10:13:16 2002 g2DGDG809455 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:13:16 - g2DG5mB29155; Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation And then use various glues to see if that's a factor. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Howdy Don -- Now you're talkin! And while we do these stiffness tests, we should also do another set of tests. Here's what I'd do if I had all my "stuff" together: Take six strips and straight bevel them to precise half diameters. Tapeinto hex bundle. Cut them into foot long pieces. Glue up, using light,medium, and heavy tension, (resulting in thick, medium, and thin gluelines). Heat set glue and scrape/sand uniformly as possible. Mic thesections and compare flat-to- flat measurements. The OD's will hopefully all be different, based on the thread tension applied. Make a jig which willhold a glued section by the ends, and pull up on the center of the sectionusing an appropriate tension as measured on a repeatable spring scale orstrain gauge . Measure the deflection from the resting position. Do this howmuch the stiffness varies by OD. The amount of power fibers will beconstant in each of the specimens, but the geometry of the glued sectionswill vary. I would probably then repeat the experiment, but keep the OD the same andadjust the strip measurements and glue line width. Like, all the OD's would be .250. But on specimen #1, the strips are all .123, and thin glue lines. Specimen #2, the strips are all .121, and medium glue lines. Specimen #3would have strips .119, and thick glue lines. OD of the section, or in the thickness of the glue line itself, has a moresignificant impact on the stiffness of a unit section of blank. Next time I am up to Bob's, I think I'll try to twist his arm into helping with another experiment.... Suggestions to make this a more worthwhile and valid effort? TAM -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 7:44 PM Cc: patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com; 'Adam Vigil'; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Guys, Have watched this one with interest. I guess someone will have to coordinate, others do the work and a third dothe write up for one of the publications - either Planing Form or PowerFibers. We need to understand just how this is to be done. Like Martin Darryl says - how do we get conformity? Any ideas? Further, the test samples should be long enough to test for resistance tobending. There seems to be some agreement that different glues have greater resistance to bending. Would be neat to look @ this @ the same time. Too bad we can't meet over a beer and sort it out. regards, Don At 03:30 PM 3/12/02 -0500, arthur port wrote: Patrick, Could it be done as simply as running lots of short strips through thickness planer, then gluing them up a la the "Poor Man's Quad' ( face to face), then extrapolating that thickness of glue to a hex form, the way Ray Gould saidhe figures his glue swell? That would certainly be less time-consuming than making actual rod sections! Also a lot easier to mic before gluing up, nothaving to worry about how tight the strips are in a hex configuration... If one guy ran them all through his own planer at once, then farmed them out to others to glue, pre- and post-mic, it should be a piece of cake toaccomplish. That way no one would need fifty glues in hand to do theexperiment. Art http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders/index.html from briansr@point-net.com Wed Mar 13 10:27:35 2002 g2DGRY810507 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:27:34 - g2DH0C408229; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:00:12 -0500 Subject: Re: penta taper GerryCheck in the archives there's an Andie Barr # 5wt. taper I posted a fewyears backCheersBrian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: penta taper Tom - Now that I have accumulated all of the cutter heads from TomMorgan I would appreciate your posting of the penta. So far I have onlyseen one Uslan and a couple of Irgans tapers. Thanks, Jerry Young from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Mar 13 10:32:22 2002 g2DGWL810931 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:32:22 -0600 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:32:19 -0800 Subject: Grand daughter Hi to every one on the list,I don't know if I can find the right words to thank all of you for those =wonderful thoughts and prayers about the passing of my beautiful grand =daughter Kirsten. She died peacefully in her Dad and Mom's arms March =7th after a 16 month battle with a particularly nasty cancer called =Ewings Sarcoma. She had every available treatment at Children's Hospital =and the University of Washington Hospital in Seattle but none worked. =Her funeral is today with a memorial service being held here in =Woodinville, WA and then another service Saturday in Santa Monica , CA. =There just isn't any way I can adequately describe how much your support =has meant to Kirsten, her family and to me. You folks are terrific and =my sincerest thanks come from the heart. I do hope I can meet some of =you in the future and give you each a big hug, perhaps at the FFF = Ray Gould Hi to every one on the =list,I don't know if I can find the right = all of you for those wonderful thoughts and prayers about the passing of = beautiful grand daughter Kirsten. She died peacefully in her Dad and = March 7th after a 16 month battle with a particularly nasty cancer = Sarcoma. She had every available treatment at Children's Hospital and = University of Washington Hospital in Seattle but none worked. Her = today with a memorial service being held here in Woodinville, WA and = another service Saturday in Santa Monica , CA. There just isn't any way = adequately describe how much your support has meant to Kirsten, her = to me. You folks are terrific and my sincerest thanks come from the = hope I can meet some of you in the future and give you each a big hug, = at the FFF Conclave this summer at Livingston, Montana where I'll be = out. RayGould from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Wed Mar 13 10:33:40 2002 g2DGXU811148 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:33:30 - IAA27494 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:33:28 - IAA04187 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:33:26 - g2DGXkL05581 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:33:46 - (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:25:24 -0800 Subject: spectacular non rodmaking pictures from aport@si.rr.com Wed Mar 13 10:55:47 2002 g2DGtk812770 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:55:46 -0600 Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:55:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Wax Or, of course, Briwax, which is a double threat/benefit; you can get =high on the solvents in it while you're polishing the rod!Art of = course. Or, of course, Briwax, which is a double threat/benefit; you can = on the solvents in it while you're polishing the rod!Art from rmoon@ida.net Wed Mar 13 11:53:52 2002 g2DHrp816115 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:53:51 -0600 0000 Subject: Penta taper Uslan 8' 8014 I hate to do this after the Granger taper, but Jerry Young was askingabout a penta taper, and I told him I had a Uslan rod and would mic itout. If there are any others that might like it e-mail off line Ralph --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Wed Mar 13 12:12:48 2002 g2DICm817173 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:12:48 -0600 pri.pacificare.com 2002 18:16:59 UT (Tumbleweed ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:12:12 -0800 Subject: RE: Penta taper Uslan 8' 8014 I have found measuring pentas to be a problem. Other than the strip depth isnot 1/2 the diameter - there is also the problem of trying to determine howmuch of the apex was sanded. I'm not saying the apex was sanded directly,but if you sand one flat then the other next to it, you do lower the apex abit. Strip depth is the actual determining factor of any taper, and gettingto the strip depth of a penta is more difficult than 4 or 6 sided rods.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:54 AM Subject: Penta taper Uslan 8' 8014 I hate to do this after the Granger taper, but Jerry Young was askingabout a penta taper, and I told him I had a Uslan rod and would mic itout. If there are any others that might like it e-mail off line Ralph --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from Dennishigham@cs.com Wed Mar 13 12:14:14 2002 g2DIED817383 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:14:13 -0600 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:14:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Wax I guess I must be pretty pedestrian ...I've been using Malm's classic carwax :- } Dennis from cw@vanion.com Wed Mar 13 12:37:24 2002 g2DIbN818622 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:37:23 - for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:42:18 - Subject: Tony Larsens page Can someone give me Tonys web page address. I need to thank him for some=very nice hardwear. Thanks, Chad Can someone give me Tonys webpage = Chad from ttalsma@macatawa.org Wed Mar 13 12:43:57 2002 g2DIhv819067 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:43:57 - id ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:36:39 -0500 id F563CLS1; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:36:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Tony Larsens page http://pages.prodigy.net/pumpkin10/ There you go. chad wigham wrote: Can someone give me Tonys web page address. I need to thank him forsome very nice hardwear. Thanks, Chad -- Todd Talsma 8412 North Maple Court Zeeland MI 49464 ------ email: http://www.webbizbuilders.com/ Bamboo Tips site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo/ Bamboo Sources site:http://www.webbizbuilders.com/Bamboo_Sources/ home page:http://external.sligh.com/~toddt/ genealogy pages: Under construction from cw@vanion.com Wed Mar 13 12:51:28 2002 Received: from 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN This is a multi-part message quoted-printable Thanks =Guys!! ------ JNL123141@msn.com Wed Mar 13 13:12:59 2002 Received: from Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:12:45 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [63.10.180.222] From: , "Smithwick" Cc:"RodmakersPost" Subject: Re: Grand Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.00.0021.1900 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 JNL123141@msn.com Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN ------ not try to tell any rod makers what type of rod to build; only what=hardware, etc. I assumed that five strip and four strip makers would co=nvert to the same cross sectional area as the hex taper. Zimny did and a= sexpected, his quad was slower. Carcao did also. I was afraid if I got= too Original Message ----- From: Bob Maulucci Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 experiment? Was it to see if converted quad and pentas feel like a hex rod? Ithought it was to build all the ro= ds to exactly the same numbers and see ifthe geometry or hollow building or= 2 or 3 piece configuartions change theway they cast. I re-read the Planing Form from Nov/Dec 1999 and it doesnot say they would be converting anything. I have several rods here thatexhibit exactly your observation that the q= uad and hex of equal dimensionswill show the quad to be a heavier line weigh= t. I have thought about it waymore than I want to, and said way too much already all the time hoping not tooffend John or anyone else involved. Would not the point of the experimentto be that when the quad and penta = are built to the same exact numbers,that they are proven stiffer? If the numbers are not the same exact ones,what is the control element of the experiment? If they are not built to theexact same numbers, then what do they have in common other than thatthey are 7'6" in length? Respectfully, Bob -----Original Message----- From: experiment In a message dated 3/12/2 9:54:03 PM,bob@downandacross.com writes: > Bob - Think about that abit. If you built them to the same flat to flat dimension, the quad would have7% more material in it, and probably be a line weight heavier. Is that the printable Bob, I did not try to tell any rod makers sectional area as the hex taper. = ; Zimny did and as expected, his quad 8:= TSmithwick@aol.com=Cc:rodmakers@wugate.wustl.=e Subject: RE: Grandexperim= expe=riment? Was it to see if convertedquad and pentas feel like a hex rod=? I thought it was to build all the rodsto exactly the same numbers a=nd see if the geometry or hollow building or 2or 3 piece configuartio=ns change the way they cast. I re-read the PlaningForm from Nov/Dec1=999 and it does not say they would be convertinganything.I haves=everal rods here that exhibit exactly your observation that the quada=nd hex of equal dimensions will show the quad to be a heavier line weight=.I have thought about it way more than I want to, and said way too mu=chalready all the time hoping not to offend John or anyone else invol=ved.Would not the point of the experiment to be that when the quad an=d penta arebuilt to the same exact numbers, that they are proven stif=fer? If thenumbers are not the same exact ones, what is the control e=lement of theexperiment? If they are not built to the exact samenumb=ers, then what dothey have in common other than that they are 7'6" in=length?Respectfully,Bob-----Original Message-----Fro= March= Grand =experimentIn a message dated 3/12/2 9:54:03 PM,bob@downa=ndacross.com writes:<< If they were converted, then whatwa=s the point of building rods to thesametaper? dimension, the quad would have 7% more material in it, and probablybe a lineweight heavier. Is that the sametaper? from harms1@pa.net Wed Mar 13 13:46:15 2002 g2DJkE822850 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:46:14 - Subject: Re: One of those days Tom, What you have posted is actually a diagram of me designing my tapers foroptimum performance. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Fw: One of those days Is this a typical rodmakers day? Just a little humor for the list. Tom Subject: Fw: One of those days from harms1@pa.net Wed Mar 13 13:59:52 2002 g2DJxq823835 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:59:52 - Subject: Re: Grand experiment Ray, Nope, as it was explained to me, it isn't a moment of inertia issue.Instead, it is a phenomenon that develops within the molecular (fiber?)structure of the square section itself. Apparently, there are vectors alongthe two side surfaces that come into play only upon flexing. These becomefocused inward along the surface of each side, forming a sort of cone-shapedarea (focused inward toward the center line) of increased resistance to theforces of bending. This is a phenomenon that becomes operative in addition to the moregeneralized measurements of moment of inertia. And, also apparently, it issomething that does not come into play when the section is in any staticposition. It becomes functional only when the section is flexed, and itseffect is non-linear both with greater flexing and also with greaterexposed, side surface area. I am trying to get back to this guy through the mutual friend who introducedus, and I'll try to be more accurate as soon as I get more info. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Grand experiment Hi to all,I can't help but think that what the Dupont chap was referring to is thatthe stiffness of the cross section of a beam is due to the greater moment of inertia of the vertical parts rather than the horizontal parts. For example consider a 2x6 piece of lumber. If you support the piece on the two ends and load it in the middle it will be much stiffer if the 6" sides are verticalthan if it's turned 90Ÿ and the 2" sides are vertical. That all shows upwhen us engineers calculate that mysterious factor we call the moment ofinertia.Ray----- Original Message -----From: "WILLIAM HARMS" Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:26 PMSubject: Re: Grand experiment Tom, I heard an interesting explanation of the quad's power this past weekend. I'll try to relay what I can, and then perhaps you and the others who are versed in physics and math can fill in the blanks. Apparently, the "slow" initial feel of the quad is explained by exactly the factors you mentioned here, but the remarkable ability of the quad to "shrug off" its load and keep on firing out the line is a function of what wasexplained to me as the principle of "elastic plasticity" (or, god help me, maybe it's "plastic elasticity"). Now this comes from one of DuPont'sengineers, and the deal is that, in a quad, the real strength comes not so much from tension/compression of power fibers in the top and bottomsurfaces. In a quad, a still greater strength (when flexing) develops along and within the two outer SIDES of the rod. As I understood what I was told, there is a sort of "cone" of strength that develops along the length of the outer sides when a long, square shape is flexed (a cumulative, plastic resistance to bending that is more than just a function of mass). Since a hexagonal rod does not enjoy broad, flat outer sides, the cone of plasticity along its angled, outer sides is dissapated as easily as it is formed. So the strength of a hex rod derives largely from the distance the power fibers (and their mass) are away from the centerline. Can anyone elaborate a little on this? I had been pretty clear all along on how a hex rod gains its resistance to the forces of bending, but I had not heard this explanation about the "mystery" of the quad before. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:04 AMSubject: Grand experiment Bob - I went to Ron Kusse's site and looked at the diagram.I think he is right, the power of the quad is explained by the broad face of power fibers in the casting plane. What he does not tell you, is that the mathmaticalconversion from hex to quad is .93. Therefore the outer face of a quad is 7% closer to the centerline of the rod. I think this explains the initiallyslower feel on rods that are converted this way from hex tapers. BUT, it is not the initial speed of the rod that determines line speed, it is the speed of the rod when loaded. The advantage of the quad is that they tend to shrug off load, just as Kusse's diagram suggests. finally let me emphasize that the grand experiment involved mathmatical conversion as the groundrule. If you gave the Warra taper to an experienced quad builder like Mr. Zimny, and gave him the freedom to modify it into something more suited to a quad, I have a feeling he would send the rest of us off the casting pond and back to the proverbi! al drawing board. from fiveside@net-gate.com Wed Mar 13 14:07:09 2002 g2DK78824471 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:07:08 - Subject: Mid-Atlantic Gathering To The List,I was delegated to report on the informal Mid-Atlantic =Innovator-Makers Gathering held on Mar 9 in Tom Smithwick's shop. We had =12 makers in attendence, a pleasant surprise. Ted Barnhart was from MD, =Art Port from NY and the rest from NJ. The weather was great.Ted was up first and he showed us how to make a non-metal ferrule, =using shrink-tube, epoxy and graphite or fiberglass cloth. Note that = Ted also showed some new tricks using O-rings instead of cord to bind =rods. He also showed his little portable heat-boxes, useful in many =places, and many other things. He is indeed an innovator.Tom did his sharpening magic with his leather bound wheel, the easy =way to get scary-sharp. He made more converts. After lunch we turned our attention to an innovation, the 3-sided rod. =I demo'd what I believe to be the first Trirod, a 202E knockoff, =experimental model with tiger-striped DougFir grip, copper sliding =rings, wine-bottle cork reelseat, and a 20 gauge shell base for a =buttplate. That DougFir tiger- striped grip was another first, I believe.Tom then glued up with resorcinal the 2-strip sandwich destined to be =Trirod No 2, clamping it to an angle iron.Then we turned to casting. It was a great day, all agreed. Bill To The List, = Mid-Atlantic Innovator-Makers Gathering held on Mar 9 in Tom Smithwick's = We had 12 makers in attendence, a pleasant surprise. Ted Barnhart was = Art Port from NY and the rest from NJ. The weather was =great. = make a non-metal ferrule, using shrink-tube, epoxy and graphite or = tricks = O-rings instead of cord to bind rods. He also showed his little portable = heat-boxes, useful in many places, and many other things. He is indeed = innovator. converts. = my home-brew. innovation, the 3-sided rod. I demo'd what I believe to be the first = 202E knockoff, experimental model with tiger-striped DougFir grip, = sliding rings, wine-bottle cork reelseat, and a 20 gauge shell base for = believe. iron. casting. many other rods. Bill from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Wed Mar 13 15:33:11 2002 g2DLXB803825 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:33:11 - pri.pacificare.com 2002 21:37:22 UT (Tumbleweed ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:32:37 -0800 Subject: RE: Grand experiment g2DLXB803826 This thread is very interesting. I am making quads rectangular in crosssection from the tip to 2/3rds down to the handle where it blends into asquare cross section. I put the guides on a long side which makes them trackstraight as an arrow, but the last 1/3 section (square) really stands up indistance casting. I wonder what would happen if I blended the handle sectioninto a rectangle 90 deg. to the tip and mid section.....Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:56 AM Subject: Re: Grand experiment Ray, Nope, as it was explained to me, it isn't a moment of inertia issue.Instead, it is a phenomenon that develops within the molecular (fiber?)structure of the square section itself. Apparently, there are vectorsalongthe two side surfaces that come into play only upon flexing. These becomefocused inward along the surface of each side, forming a sort ofcone-shapedarea (focused inward toward the center line) of increased resistance totheforces of bending. This is a phenomenon that becomes operative in addition to the moregeneralized measurements of moment of inertia. And, also apparently, itissomething that does not come into play when the section is in any staticposition. It becomes functional only when the section is flexed, and itseffect is non-linear both with greater flexing and also with greaterexposed, side surface area. I am trying to get back to this guy through the mutual friend whointroducedus, and I'll try to be more accurate as soon as I get more info. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Ray Gould" Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 10:54 AMSubject: Re: Grand experiment Hi to all,I can't help but think that what the Dupont chap was referring to is that the stiffness of the cross section of a beam is due to the greater momentof inertia of the vertical parts rather than the horizontal parts. For example consider a 2x6 piece of lumber. If you support the piece on the two ends and load it in the middle it will be much stiffer if the 6" sides are vertical than if it's turned 90Ÿ and the 2" sides are vertical. That all shows upwhen us engineers calculate that mysterious factor we call the momentofinertia.Ray----- Original Message -----From: "WILLIAM HARMS" Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:26 PMSubject: Re: Grand experiment Tom, I heard an interesting explanation of the quad's power this past weekend. I'll try to relay what I can, and then perhaps you and the others who are versed in physics and math can fill in the blanks. Apparently, the "slow" initial feel of the quad is explained by exactly the factors you mentioned here, but the remarkable ability of the quad to "shrug off" its load and keep on firing out the line is a function of what was explained to me as the principle of "elastic plasticity" (or, god help me, maybe it's "plastic elasticity"). Now this comes from one of DuPont'sengineers, and the deal is that, in a quad, the real strength comes notso much from tension/compression of power fibers in the top and bottomsurfaces. In a quad, a still greater strength (when flexing) develops along and within the two outer SIDES of the rod. As I understood what I was told, there is a sort of "cone" of strength that develops along the length of the outer sides when a long, square shape is flexed (a cumulative, plastic resistance to bending that is more than just a function of mass). Since a hexagonal rod does not enjoy broad, flat outer sides, the cone of plasticity along its angled, outer sides is dissapated as easily as it is formed. So the strength of a hex rod derives largely from the distance the power fibers (and their mass) are away from the centerline. Can anyone elaborate a little on this? I had been pretty clear all along on how a hex rod gains its resistance to the forces of bending, but I had not heard this explanation about the "mystery" of the quad before. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:04 AMSubject: Grand experiment Bob - I went to Ron Kusse's site and looked at the diagram.I think heis right, the power of the quad is explained by the broad face of power fibers in the casting plane. What he does not tell you, is that the mathmatical conversion from hex to quad is .93. Therefore the outer face of a quad is 7% closer to the centerline of the rod. I think this explains the initially slower feel on rods that are converted this way from hex tapers. BUT, it is not the initial speed of the rod that determines line speed, it is the speed of the rod when loaded. The advantage of the quad is that they tend to shrug off load, just as Kusse's diagram suggests. finally let me emphasize that the grand experiment involved mathmatical conversion as the ground rule. If you gave the Warra taper to an experienced quad builder like Mr. Zimny, and gave him the freedom to modify it into something more suited to a quad,I have a feeling he would send the rest of us off the casting pond and back to the proverbi! al drawing board. This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from bamboorules@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Mar 13 16:05:03 2002 g2DM52805958 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:05:02 -0600 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Last rod List,sorry I should have clarified that this deployment won't be takingme anywhere too dangerous, just to Borden, Ontario. I was supposed to begoing to Bosnia for 6 months but one of the other guys in the shop switchedplaces with me so I can go later on (perhaps to Kandahar??). Thanks for allthe kind thoughts though.I really am going to miss being able to drop in on the list all thetime!!Shawn Shawn Pineo wrote: Hi all,no I didn't mean this will be my last rod!! How gullible areyou guys anyway?? ;^) As if.....I meant to say that this will (more than likely) be the last rodI will probably get to build until I get back from my 3 month deploymentwith the forces.The rod I just finished will be for the casting tournament onthis Friday, and yes I did cave in and build another short rod againthis year, had every intention of building a 7 1/2 to 8 footer just forthis but I guess I'll be under gunned again this year! It's a nicelittle PHY midge with a couple tweaks here and there. All Bellingerhardware and Pearsalls Orange/black jasper. Nice Stick, I will be takinga Dickerson 6611 with Rattan grip as well, just in case I need a biggerrod...LOL!!!As the time to leave inches nearer I dread having to unsubscribe perhaps even visit one or two of you if I can and hope that I might beable to grab a chat in the chat room from time to time.Shawn from JNL123141@msn.com Wed Mar 13 16:47:54 2002 g2DMlr808711 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:47:54 - Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:47:48 -0800 Subject: Fw: It does add up. (fwd) FILETIME=[19633930:01C1CAE1] Slightly off topic but good. Subject: It does add up. Giving 100%We have all been to those meetings where someone wants over 100%! Howdo you reach 100%? How does anyone achieve 103%? Here's a little math that might prove helpful in the future! If:A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z canbe represented as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 Then:H A R D W O R K8 1 18 4 23 15 18 11 = 98% And:K N O W L E D G E11 14 15 23 12 5 4 7 5 = 96% But:A T T I T U D E1 20 20 9 20 21 4 5 = 100% And:B U L L S H I T2 21 12 12 19 8 9 20 = 103% Therefore:It stands to reason that hard work and knowledge will get you close,butattitude and bullshit will put you over the top. ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- up.&= m= J&= R&nbs= 17= Then:&nbs= L&nb= 9 = wor= ll put you over the top.---------- End ForwardedMess=age ---------- from bob@downandacross.com Wed Mar 13 16:48:29 2002 g2DMmS808811 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:48:28 -0600 Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Patrick. there is such a place...Dave and Kat's tailgate in Grayling. Gee, Iwas there, where were the rest of you guys.-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:21 AM Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Some day we ought to find someplace in the U.S. for all of us to gettogether and drink beer and flap our jaws. We all know each otherspersonalities from the emails but it would be nice to put faces to them andbody english also. there is such a place...Dave and Kat's tailgate in Grayling. Gee, I was = where were the rest of you guys. WSent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:21 'dmanders@telusplanet.net'; aport@si.rr.comCc: Coffey, = 'Adam Vigil'; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Was = increases, Now Experimentation day we ought to find someplace in the U.S. for all of us to get = drink beer and flap our jaws. We all know each others personalities = also. from horsesho@ptd.net Wed Mar 13 17:14:37 2002 g2DNEa810164 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:14:36 - by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.10 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4189. .Clear:0. Processed in 1.274065 secs); 13 Mar 2002 23:12:48 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Re: Granger 7'6" Taper Needed --------------070908090209090502030801 Hi John, The 8' W/M Granger handles a #5 line. I have casted both the Goodwin and W/M 8' ers and I have never seen an 8' W/M that was anything but a #5. I have felt Goodwin's however that felt better with a #4. In the W/M Granger catalog I have seen it lists the 7', 7 1/2', 8', and 8 1/2' as taking a HEH line which I believe is a DT #5. But most people would agree that the 7' and 7 1/2' are #4s channer wrote: Thanks Marty,See, I told you my knowledge of Granger's didn't go very far. It's verystrange, here I am in the heart of Granger country and I have only seena couple and never had one in to refinish.Same goes for Phillipson. Whatline weight is the 8' model for? I need to build an 8'3pc 5wt, wasthinking of the Leonard 50df I measured a few years ago, but theGranger's are interesting,too.john "Marty D." wrote: Guys, John is correct for 9' and 9 1/2' Grangers. In those sizes theymade a couple different models. They only made one model in sizes 7',7 1/2', 8', and 8 1/2'. Marty channer wrote: Guys;What you need to determine the taper is the model NUMBER, notneccessarily the name, such as 9050, which indicated a 9' rodweighing 5ounces, the numbers you need for this particular rod will be 76something something. Unfortunately, that's a s far as my limitedknowledge of Granger tapers will take me. I think there's a coupleinHoweel's book, I could look if you'ld like.john"Ralph W. Moon" wrote: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out for you,but there werea number of different models.RalphKyleDruey@aol.com wrote: Hi Folks,Many thanks to all who have helped me with taper suggestions.I've got somegreat ideas from this list and am working on building the next 6rods tocompare tapers so I can develop a feel for rod action. I'vesettled on thesetapers for 7'6" 5 wt or 4/5wt rods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613,Granger 7'6",Leonard 39DH, Garrison 206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted tocomparerods with different actions ranging from fast, medium fast, tomedium, andall of these rods seem to fit this.This is where I need some help. I want to start with the Granger7'6", butthe tapers I have found in the Howell book and the archives don'tline up toowell with one another. I sure would appreciate some folksproviding me withthis taper from rods they have either built or cast, and haveliked it.Thanks for your help!Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------070908090209090502030801 Hi John, The 8' W/M Granger handles a #5 line. I have casted both theGoodwin a #5.I have felt Goodwin's however that felt better with a #4. In the W/M Grangercatalog I have seen it lists the 7', 7 1/2', 8', and 8 1/2' as taking a HEHline which I believe is a DT #5. But most people would agree that the 7'and 7 1/2' are #4s channer wrote: Thanks Marty, See, I told you my knowledge of Granger'sdidn't go very far. It's verystrange, here I am in the heart of Grangercountry and I have only seena couple and never had one in torefinish.Same goes for Phillipson. Whatline weight is the 8' model for? Ineed to build an 8'3pc 5wt, wasthinking of the Leonard 50df I measureda few years ago, but theGranger's areinteresting,too.john"Marty D." wrote: Guys, John is correct for 9' and 9 1/2' Grangers. In thosesizes theymade a couple different models. They only made one model insizes 7',7 1/2', 8', and 8 1/2'. Martychannerwrote: Guys;What you need to determine the taper is the modelNUMBER, notneccessarily the name, such as 9050, which indicated a 9'rodweighing 5ounces, the numbers you need for this particular rodwill be 76something something. Unfortunately, that's a s far as mylimitedknowledge of Granger tapers will take me. I think there's acoupleinHoweel's book, I could look if you'ld like.john"RalphW. Moon" wrote: Kyle What model of Granger. I have one I could Mike out foryou,but there werea number of different models.RalphKyleDruey@aol.comwrote: Hi Folks,Many thanks to all who have helped me with tapersuggestions.I've got somegreat ideas from this list and am workingon building the next 6rods tocompare tapers so I can develop a feel rods: Payne 101, Dickerson 7613,Granger 7'6",Leonard 39DH,Garrison 206, and a PHY Perfectionist. I wanted tocomparerodswith different actions ranging from fast, medium fast, tomedium,andall of these rods seem to fit this.This is where I need some help. I want to start with the Granger7'6", butthe tapers I have found inthe Howell book and the archives don'tline up toowell with oneanother. I sure would appreciate some folksproviding me withthistaper from rods they have either built or cast, and havelikedit.Thanks for your help!Kyle --http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon --------------070908090209090502030801-- from jim_hecht@hotmail.com Wed Mar 13 18:39:55 2002 g2E0ds813614 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 18:39:54 - Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:39:48 -0800 Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:39:46 GMT Subject: removing reel seat FILETIME=[BF13EB40:01C1CAF0] I have a reel seat I would like to best to do this?Chat with friends online, tryMSN Messenger: ClickHere from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Mar 13 18:42:01 2002 g2E0g1813873 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 18:42:01 - for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:41:49 - Subject: Penta taper OK - Here is Bill Fink's penta taper. It's a 7'3" 4-5 weight. It is very crisp and accurate, a wonderful DF rod. The numbers are the STRIPdimensions, ie. the planing form settings. Bill built this as a one piece, and I suggest you do the same if you possibly can. Can you do that on a Morgan Mill? Maybe Bill would consider running a two piece taper for the vechicle length or planing form impaired?0- .03055- .03910-.05015-.05920-.06625-.07330-.08035- .08640-.09245-.09850-.10555-.11160-.11765-.12470-.13075-.141Balance .151 from Darryl.Hayashida@phs.com Wed Mar 13 19:06:05 2002 g2E164814652 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:06:04 - pri.pacificare.com 2002 01:10:15 UT (Tumbleweed ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:05:28 -0800 Subject: RE: Penta taper Strip dimensions is the way to give penta tapers! Much more convenient thatway. Thank you! I think the long bed Morgan mill can handle a rod this longas a one piece, but, alas, I have the short bed. It will have to be at leasta two piece for me.Darryl Hayashida -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 4:42 PM Subject: Penta taper OK - Here is Bill Fink's penta taper. It's a 7'3" 4-5 weight. It is very crisp and accurate, a wonderful DF rod. The numbers are the STRIPdimensions, ie. the planing form settings. Bill built this as a one piece, and Isuggest you do the same if you possibly can. Can you do that on a Morgan Mill?Maybe Bill would consider running a two piece taper for the vechicle length or planing form impaired?0- .03055- .03910-.05015-.05920-.06625-.07330-.08035- .08640-.09245-.09850-.10555-.11160-.11765-.12470-.13075-.141Balance .151 This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, containsinformation from PacifiCare Health Systems Inc. which may be confidentialor privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individualor entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware thatany disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of thisinformation is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify thesender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy allelectronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. from bob@downandacross.com Wed Mar 13 19:10:51 2002 g2E1Ao814967 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:10:50 - Wed,13 Mar 2002 20:10:43 -0500 Subject: RE: removing reel seat Slow heat will do. Just try not to ruin the finish on the seat. I justremoved a seat from a fiberglass rod that had built up masking taperunderneath. Worked fine. I might assume that the seat is metal? That wouldbe even easier.Bob---- -Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 7:40 PM Subject: removing reel seat I have a reel seat I would like to remove. It was glued with epoxy(Devcon 5 minute I think) and the blank was built up in several places withmasking tape. Can I just heat the reel seat to break down the glue? Anydanger or thoughts on how best to do this? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here will do. Just try not to ruin the finish on the seat. I just removed a = a fiberglass rod that had built up masking taper underneath. Worked = easier.Bob HechtSent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 7:40 seat (Devcon 5 minute I think) and the blank was built up in several places = this? Here from dpeaston@wzrd.com Wed Mar 13 19:42:15 2002 g2E1gE817122 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:42:15 - , Subject: Re: Grand experiment g2E1gF817125 Tom, Ray, Bob et al., I think that the following URL provides a good explanation of the role of plastic and elastic bending of a beam. Basically, the outer fibers are the important ones when the deflection is slight while those near the neutral axis receive little compression or tension. However as the bending becomes more severe the outer fibers begin to yield and become plastic rather than elastic. The further the bend progresses the fewer and more central the fibers that are acting elastically. Now, relate this to quads vs. hex and penta sections:)) Seehttp://www.newi.ac.uk/engineering/Mechanical_lab/Plastic%20Bending3.htm -Doug At 02:56 PM 3/13/2002 -0500, WILLIAM HARMS wrote: Ray, Nope, as it was explained to me, it isn't a moment of inertia issue.Instead, it is a phenomenon that develops within the molecular (fiber?)structure of the square section itself. Apparently, there are vectors alongthe two side surfaces that come into play only upon flexing. These becomefocused inward along the surface of each side, forming a sort of cone-shapedarea (focused inward toward the center line) of increased resistance to theforces of bending. This is a phenomenon that becomes operative in addition to the moregeneralized measurements of moment of inertia. And, also apparently, it issomething that does not come into play when the section is in any staticposition. It becomes functional only when the section is flexed, and itseffect is non-linear both with greater flexing and also with greaterexposed, side surface area. I am trying to get back to this guy through the mutual friend whointroducedus, and I'll try to be more accurate as soon as I get more info. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: "Ray Gould" Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 10:54 AMSubject: Re: Grand experiment Hi to all,I can't help but think that what the Dupont chap was referring to is thatthe stiffness of the cross section of a beam is due to the greatermoment of inertia of the vertical parts rather than the horizontal parts. For example consider a 2x6 piece of lumber. If you support the piece on the two ends and load it in the middle it will be much stiffer if the 6" sides are verticalthan if it's turned 90Ÿ and the 2" sides are vertical. That all shows upwhen us engineers calculate that mysterious factor we call the momentofinertia.Ray- ---- Original Message -----From: "WILLIAM HARMS" Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:26 PMSubject: Re: Grand experiment Tom, I heard an interesting explanation of the quad's power this past weekend. I'll try to relay what I can, and then perhaps you and the others who are versed in physics and math can fill in the blanks. Apparently, the "slow" initial feel of the quad is explained by exactly the factors you mentioned here, but the remarkable ability of the quad to "shrug off" its load and keep on firing out the line is a function of what wasexplained to me as the principle of "elastic plasticity" (or, god help me, maybe it's "plastic elasticity"). Now this comes from one of DuPont'sengineers, and the deal is that, in a quad, the real strength comes not so much from tension/compression of power fibers in the top and bottomsurfaces. In a quad, a still greater strength (when flexing) develops along and within the two outer SIDES of the rod. As I understood what I was told, there is a sort of "cone" of strength that develops along the length of the outer sides when a long, square shape is flexed (a cumulative, plastic resistance to bending that is more than just a function of mass). Since a hexagonal rod does not enjoy broad, flat outer sides, the cone of plasticity along its angled, outer sides is dissapated as easily as it is formed. So the strength of a hex rod derives largely from the distance the power fibers (and their mass) are away from the centerline. Can anyone elaborate a little on this? I had been pretty clear all along on how a hex rod gains its resistance to the forces of bending, but I had not heard this explanation about the "mystery" of the quad before. Cheers, Bill ----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:04 AMSubject: Grand experiment Bob - I went to Ron Kusse's site and looked at the diagram.I think he is right, the power of the quad is explained by the broad face of power fibers in the casting plane. What he does not tell you, is that the mathmaticalconversion from hex to quad is .93. Therefore the outer face of a quad is 7% closer to the centerline of the rod. I think this explains the initiallyslower feel on rods that are converted this way from hex tapers. BUT,it is not the initial speed of the rod that determines line speed, it is the speed of the rod when loaded. The advantage of the quad is that they tend to shrug off load, just as Kusse's diagram suggests. finally let me emphasize that the grand experiment involved mathmatical conversion as the groundrule. If you gave the Warra taper to an experienced quad builder like Mr. Zimny, and gave him the freedom to modify it into something more suited to aquad, I have a feeling he would send the rest of us off the casting pond and back to the proverbi! al drawing board. Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Mar 13 20:34:50 2002 g2E2Yn820806 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 20:34:49 - Subject: Rods TSmithwick@aol.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Does anyone know anything about a Horrocks and Ibbotson rod called a Roosevelt and also a Montgomery Wards rod called a Speed King? My history professor brought those two rods to class tonight to see if I could get some info on them They were his father's who is 90 years old.Thanks,Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ Does anyone knowanything about a Horrocks and Ibbotson rod called a Roosevelt and also a brought those two rods to class tonight to see if I could get some info on Thanks,Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ from bob@downandacross.com Wed Mar 13 20:34:59 2002 g2E2Yw820827 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 20:34:58 - Wed,13 Mar 2002 21:34:51 -0500 Subject: Calculating rpms with pulleys Hi Guys:As some of you guys know, I have been painstakingly getting my mill up andrunning. I ran across this interesting site today.http://www.pacific- hoe.net/calcband.htmI figure that with this calculation, I am running at about 5800 rpm. Themotor is 1 HP at 1750 rpm, the motor pulley wheel is 10", and the spindlespulley wheel is 3". I have stipped most of the original pulleys and the old"vibrating" motor, and this now seems to be cutting much better. Couldsomeone who knows the formula tell me if I am indeed running in that ballpark? I think 5700 or so is right where I want to be. Still a long way togo.I have to say...if you have $400 or 500 to experiment with, you could prettyeasily get a mill running for cutting tapered strips. Man, it seems wayeasier that making planing forms. Get a $200 Baldor (or a $100 Woodtek) orother good motor, motor mounts, get some pulleys and belts, pillow blocksand a 1" keyed shaft, some aluminum angle, bolts, a metal tool stand, a bigscrap flat piece of steel for table top, some aluminum and delrin (orplastic) to make some hold downs, some micarta or fiber board fortemplates,a few router table kinda of adjustable handles for up/down adjustment, a fewpower cords, outlet, a manual motor switch, some plexiglass for a vacuumhood, a dial indicator, etc....(IMHO) With a drill press, and a lathe, a 1/4" tap, you could make a great rougher, and maybe even cut strips to finaldimension if you could get vibrations minimized and a reproducible heightadjustment.It is amazing what you can get from McMaster-Carr or MSC.Yeah, so I said I was in the need to break some stuff the other day, butthis is now getting to be pretty fun.Best regards,Bob from bob@downandacross.com Wed Mar 13 20:46:53 2002 g2E2kq821543 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 20:46:52 - Wed,13 Mar 2002 21:46:42 -0500 Subject: Pulley RPMS Is this right?Motor speed (rpms) times driver pulley (inches) divided by driven pulley(inches)= pulley speed1750 X 10 = 17500/3= 5833.33 rpms Should I experiment with a 2" driven pulley and try the mill at 8750 rpms?Thanks, I appreciate all you machinist and engineer types helping poor oldme*,Bob *I should have stuck to whittling with my old Woolworth's pocket knife. Youknow, the one covered in old, rusty blood. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Wed Mar 13 21:15:44 2002 g2E3Fi822517 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:15:44 - ([209.179.148.208] helo=computer) id 16lLiN-00078L-00; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:15:39 -0800 Subject: Re: Penta taper Tom, Now why would you tell us so CLEARLY that those are the strip dimensions?Wouldn't want any of us to allow for glue now would you?! LOL Adam VigilP.S. This list is way better then then the stuff my wife wants to watch onT.V.----- Original Message ----- Subject: Penta taper OK - Here is Bill Fink's penta taper. It's a 7'3" 4-5 weight. It is verycrisp and accurate, a wonderful DF rod. The numbers are the STRIP dimensions, ie. the planing form settings. Bill built this as a one piece, and I suggest from oakmere@carol.net Wed Mar 13 21:26:55 2002 g2E3Qt822995 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:26:55 -0600 g2E3Qik06110 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:26:49 -0500 Subject: RE: 7&1/2 ft Granger Special Hi Folks: I have one of the Granger Specials in the original tube. This one islabeled as GS 7630, 7&1/2 ft 3 piece on the tube. The tip is short by about10 inches. I measured this one over varnish and this one is generally closeto the dimensions given at the measure stations by Howell on page 51 of hisbook. My measurements with varnish averaged about 4 to 8 mils over that inthe Howell book. Best, FrankFrank Paul, "GreyFox"TroutBeck Fly and RodBamboo Rod Refinishing and Restoration; Graphite and Glass Rod Repair;Trout Flies, Seneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work), Clemson University; 864-656- 7471oakmere@carol.net (home), South Carolina; 864-882-0077 from kurt.clement@flashmail.com Wed Mar 13 21:59:40 2002 g2E3xd824109 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:59:39 - 0000 Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Frank, I agree with you on one of the items. If we were going to study thestiffness of the glue joints I don't believe bamboo would be the bestmaterial to work with due to variation in material, tempering. Baltic birchplywood or other uniform material would be better. However, for studying the glue joint thickness, my opinion is that one wouldneed to use the same geometry and the very material for which the jointswould be used in practice. There are a whole host of variables thatshould be controlled in order to get truly meaningful results. Glue temperature and viscosity.Room temperature and cane temperature.Cane humidity.Glue mixture (those walnut shell particles have to go somewhere)Binding pressure, and pitch of wrapping thread. I did slice a wafer of cane from one of my cut-offs and put it under a scopeat work today. I work in systems but know the folks in the lab well, andused to be in that type job. I had mounted therod wafer on a slide lastnight and sanded it down to where light would easily pass through it, andpolished it off with 1500# paper. The section was very interesting. I usePU glue and of course it foams as it cures. At the outside of the rod thejoint was very tight, barely discernable (no glue lines either). Near thecenter the joint opened up and the joint was plainly visible, with verysmall bubbles clouding the center of the glue line. The structure of thecane was interesting, especially the structure inside the power fiberbundles. I wish I had a camera on the scope. Also the scope that has theocular micrometer had a burned out bulb, and the micrometer would not fitthe scope I ended up using, so I got no measurements. They will call mewhen they get a new bulb though. The guy that runs the lab enjoys fishing,and we were discussing rods. 8-) KurtNixa, MO -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation I think an experiment to determine the thickness of variousglue lines, and the bending resistance of the glues, couldbe done more easily with a medium like baltic birch plywood,in the thinnest grade and cut into small strips. It would beas uniform in thickness as my handplaning anyway, and you wouldn'thave to worry about exact 60 degree angles, which will affectthe final glueup dimensions, probably more than the glue. I'm sure the thickness of glue lines depend somewhat on thebuilder anyway. Some people just put on more than others,and not all gets squeezed out during binding.========================================================================Frank Stetzer stetzer@uwm.eduSmall Applications Programming Group P.O. Box 413Information and Media Technologies Milwaukee, WI 53201University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee (414)-229-4571 from rextutor@yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 22:15:10 2002 g2E4F9824684 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:15:09 - 13 Mar 2002 20:15:00 PST Subject: Re: Rods rsgould@cmc.net,TSmithwick@aol.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I have seen 3 Ward rods - all production rods, sawednot split, no nodal patterns, Calcutta adn Tonkin caneetc. I have heard they were made for Ward by Montague- they are not listed in Sinclair.Sinclair mentions Horrocks and Ibbotson rod ,Rooseveltmodel first in 1930 thru the 50s . What would you liketo know ? Describe the reel seat , cork color of wrapsand I will pin down a year and original price.--- Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Does anyone know anything about a Horrocks andIbbotson rod called a Roosevelt and also a Montgomery Wards rod called aSpeed King? My history professor brought those two rods to class tonight tosee if I could get some info on them They were his father's who is 90 yearsold.Thanks,Bret HREF="http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/">http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coveragehttp://sports.yahoo.com/ from jerryy@webtv.net Thu Mar 14 06:25:32 2002 g2ECPV817439 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 06:25:31 - by mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:25:27 - 2116.public.lawson.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/mt.gso.26Feb98) id EAA05152; ETAtAhUAyXDK6SE4GsHkQ1zHSU33H8R5YxECFF8332a0h28MktN0ddxrdeD9T1bx Subject: test Delete from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 14 07:17:26 2002 g2EDHQ818225 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:17:26 -0600 helo=default) id 16lV6h-0008Eo-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:17:24 -0500 Subject: Re: One of those days Do we really need this type of crap (literally) on the List? ;o) See, this kind of thing could never happen to a fly fisherman, 'cause =the rod is always in motion, furiously flailin' the air into a frenzy of =fish catchin' motion. Now your bait slingin' bank monkeys, now that's a =different breed of coon altogether. I suspect that they live for just =such events, so's they can go home and tell one and all of their fishin' =exploits, thereby elevating themselves in stature amongst their peers. M-D Is this a typical rodmakers day? Just a little humor for the list. Tom Subject: Fw: One of those days Do we really need this type of = (literally) on the List? ;o) See, this kind of thing could = to a fly fisherman, 'cause the rod is always in motion, furiously = air into a frenzy of fish catchin' motion. Now your bait slingin' bank = now that's a different breed of coon altogether. I suspect that they = just such events, so's they can go home and tell one and all of their = peers. M-D THOMAS =PETERS list. Tom Subject: Fw: One of those =days from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Thu Mar 14 07:44:02 2002 g2EDi1819015 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:44:01 -0600 HAA13124; FAA12854; g2EDhtQ24674; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 05:43:54 -0800 "Coffey, Patrick W" ,dmanders@telusplanet.net, aport@si.rr.com Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. it would have to be centrally located so that those of us on the west coastwould have to go almost across the country to attend. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 -----Original Message----- aport@si.rr.com Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Patrick. there is such a place...Dave and Kat's tailgate in Grayling. Gee, Iwas there, where were the rest of you guys. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Some day we ought to find someplace in the U.S. for all of us to gettogether and drink beer and flap our jaws. We all know each otherspersonalities from the emails but it would be nice to put faces to them andbody english also. it would have to be centrally located so that those of us on the west coastwould have to go almost across the country to attend. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair Planning 61-79 -----Original Message-----From: Bob Maulucci 13, 2002 2:48 dmanders@telusplanet.net; aport@si.rr.comCc: 'Adam Vigil'; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Was Dimensionincreases, Now ExperimentationPatrick. there is such a place...Dave and Kat's tailgate in Grayling. Gee, I was there, where were the rest of you guys. -----Original Message-----From: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of Coffey, Patrick WSent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:21 aport@si.rr.comCc: Coffey, Patrick W; 'Adam Vigil'; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: WasDimension increases, Now ExperimentationSome day we ought to find someplace inthe U.S. for all of us to get together and drink beer and flap our jaws. We all know each others personalities from the emails but it would be nice to put faces to them and body english also. from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Mar 14 08:34:15 2002 g2EEYE821217 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:34:14 - , Subject: Re: Rods Hi Bret,The H.I Roosevelt is a rod familiar to me. It was the very first cane =rod I ever owned. I bought it in about 1947. It was a three piece x 9ft =x 2tip rod flamed dark with a plastic reel seat and came in an aluminum =tube. It was an inexpensive production rod and one that caught a lot of =trout for me. I kept it for many years and finally sold it about 2 yrs =ago.Ray Subject: Rods Does anyone know anything about a Horrocks and Ibbotson rod called a =Roosevelt and also a Montgomery Wards rod called a Speed King? My =history professor brought those two rods to class tonight to see if I =could get some info on them They were his father's who is 90 years old.Thanks,Bret http://bretsovens.bravepages.com/ Hi Bret,The H.I Roosevelt is a rod familiar to = the very first cane rod I ever owned. I bought it in about 1947. It was = piece x 9ft x 2tip rod flamed dark with a plastic reel seat and came in = aluminum tube. It was an inexpensive production rod and one that caught = ago.Ray ----- Original Message ----- Grhghlndr@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002= PMSubject: RodsDoesanyone = anything about a Horrocks and Ibbotson rod called a Roosevelt and also = those two rods to class tonight to see if I could get some info on = They were his father's who is 90 years =old.Thanks,Brethttp://bretsovens.bravepages.c=om/ from fiveside@net-gate.com Thu Mar 14 08:43:41 2002 g2EEhe821940 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:43:40 - Subject: Rod Tubes To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod practices =including tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the manufaturer's =unsightly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill To The List traditional rod practices including tubes and cases. = stakes? Bill from JNL123141@msn.com Thu Mar 14 08:51:53 2002 g2EEpr822523 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:51:53 - Thu, 14 Mar 2002 06:51:40 -0800 Subject: Re: Rod Tubes FILETIME=[BFB00B20:01C1CB67] ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Rod Tubes To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod practices inc=luding tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the manufaturer'sunsi=ghtly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill I think turpentine or most any petroleum = =- Original Message ----- From: William R. Fink Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:43 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu=Subject: Rod Tubes&nb=sp; To The deviate= mea=ns of removing the manufaturer's unsightly marking from my PVC tomatosta= ill from JNL123141@msn.com Thu Mar 14 08:56:34 2002 g2EEuX822896 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:56:33 - Thu, 14 Mar 2002 06:56:28 -0800 Subject: Penta rods FILETIME=[6B52CB70:01C1CB68] I have heard penta rods have a shorter life expectancy because only one s=trip is bending on the flat against two others at an angle. Has anyone e=lse heard this? Is there anyone out there who has used a penta rod for y=ears and years? john I haveheard p=enta rods have a shorter life expectancy because only one strip is bendin= from cw@vanion.com Thu Mar 14 09:06:57 2002 g2EF6v823560 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:06:57 - for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:11:55 - Subject: Re: Rod Tubes -----Original Message-----From: John Long Subject: Re: Rod Tubes ----- Original Message -----From: William R. FinkSent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:43 AM Subject: Rod Tubes To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod =practices including tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the =manufaturer's unsightly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill Paint thinner & steel -----Original = fiveside@net-gate.com = = RodmakersPost <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:52 AMSubject: Re: Tubes ----- Original Message =----- William R. FinkSent: Thursday, March 14, = AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Rod Tubes To The List from traditional rod practices including tubes and =cases. of removing the manufaturer's unsightly marking from my PVC = stakes? Bill from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Mar 14 09:12:52 2002 g2EFCo824138 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:12:50 -0600 ([209.179.147.87] helo=computer) id 16lWuJ-0000xK-00; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:12:44 -0800 ,, Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation A national gathering? Sounds like we should meet where the rest of the =U.S.A does when they want everybody to come and have an easy destination=point. LAS VEGAS! Rooms are cheap and so are the ....nevermind. =Honestly it would be a good place to meet and probably could get rooms = classes. Lets think about it and maybe one day it will be possible. Adam Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation it would have to be centrally located so that those of us on the west =coast would have to go almost across the country to attend. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 2:48 PM aport@si.rr.com Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Patrick. there is such a place...Dave and Kat's tailgate in =Grayling. Gee, I was there, where were the rest of you guys.-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:21 AM Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Some day we ought to find someplace in the U.S. for all of us to =get together and drink beer and flap our jaws. We all know each others =personalities from the emails but it would be nice to put faces to them =and body english also. A national gathering? Sounds like we = where the rest of the U.S.A does when they want everybody to come and = = ....nevermind. Honestly it would be a good place to meet and probably = rooms for everything...calm down...I am talking about rodmaking demos = classes. Lets think about it and maybe one day it will be =possible. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Coffey, Patrick W = =Coffey, Patrick W ; dmanders@telusplanet.net=; aport@si.rr.com Cc: 'Adam Vigil' ; rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 = AMSubject: RE: Was Dimension = Experimentation would have to be centrally located so that those of us on the west = have to go almost across the country to attend. Patrick W. =Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning =Phone: 425-234-2901 M/C = 13, = dmanders@telusplanet.net;=aport@si.rr.comCc:= Vigil'; rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= RE: Was Dimension increases, Now =Experimentation there is such a place...Dave and Kat's tailgate in Grayling. Gee, I = there, where were the rest of you guys. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.w= Patrick WSent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:21 = 'dmanders@telusplanet.net'; aport@si.rr.comCc: Coffey, = W; 'Adam Vigil'; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: = Dimension increases, Now ExperimentationSome day we ought to find someplacein = know each others personalities from the emails but it would be = faces to them and body english also. from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Mar 14 09:20:16 2002 g2EFKG824878 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:20:16 - ([209.179.147.87] helo=computer) id 16lX1a-0002pg-00 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:20:14 -0800 Subject: Re: Rod Tubes No actually I pratice traditional gardening so I only use real wood for =tomato stakes. I cut them from wood that has been seasoned and dried. I =cut them to the exact specifications that gardeners from the medievel =times used. They are inserted exactly 90* to the soil at a depth only I =know because I have been sworn to secrecy. I would never use PVC or =Bamboo...what heresy. Adam VigilThe above was sarcasm at it worse. Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:08 AMSubject: Re: Rod Tubes -----Original Message-----From: John Long Subject: Re: Rod Tubes ----- Original Message -----From: William R. FinkSent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:43 AM Subject: Rod Tubes To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod =practices including tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the =manufaturer's unsightly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill Turn them the opposite direction so you can not= [:)] No actually I pratice traditional gardening so I = medievel times used. They are inserted exactly 90* to the soil at a = Bamboo...what heresy. Adam VigilThe above was sarcasm at itworse. ----- Original Message ----- chadwigham = Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Rod Tubes Paint thinner & steel = -----Original = fiveside@net-gate.com = = RodmakersPost <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:52 AMSubject: Re: Tubes ----- Original Message ----- William R. FinkSent: Thursday, March 14, = AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Rod Tubes To The List from traditional rod practices including tubes and =cases. of removing the manufaturer's unsightly marking from my PVC tomato = stakes? =Bill from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Mar 14 09:32:04 2002 g2EFW3825729 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:32:04 -0600 (authenticated) for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:32:01 -0800 Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation --------------6D695A1623F6332BEFB6E650 Adam Vigil wrote: A national gathering? Sounds like we should meet where therest of the U.S.A does when they want everybody to comeand have an easy destination point. LAS VEGAS! Adam, Vegas? Vegas? Gimme a break man! I know why youdecided on Vegas... You don't want me to show. 'fraid wemight tie up, huh? (Tie up is a good suth'n term ...MD canexplain it) You know if we have it in Vegas, the good Rev'won't be able to attend. He'd lose his job. (not really) Tongue pressing firmly against my cheek, and stilllobbying for Ralph's symposium in Montana, Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------6D695A1623F6332BEFB6E650 Adam Vigil wrote:A nationalgathering?Sounds like we should meet where the rest of the U.S.A does when they want VEGAS! Adam, lobbying for Ralph's symposium in Montana, --Harry Boyd --------------6D695A1623F6332BEFB6E650-- from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Thu Mar 14 09:41:43 2002 g2EFfg826487 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:41:42 -0600 HAA12063; JAA05588; g2EFfcQ08465; (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:41:38 -0800 Subject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. I think a national gathering once every 5 years would be great. Us guys fromthe big pond side could share ours and learn small pond side techniques. Alot of the guy who attend Corbett lake are not on the list and have a wealthof info they share and to share. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 I think a national gathering once every 5 years would be great. Us guys fromthe big pond side could share ours and learn small pond side techniques. A lot of Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair Planning 61-79 from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Mar 14 09:43:43 2002 g2EFhg826812 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:43:42 -0600 Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:43:40 PST Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Danville, Illinois!! the local county park servicewill give us anything we want casting pond, field,meeting house, barbque pit. all we have to do is letthe public gauk for 5 bucks a head on sunday. timothy --- Harry Boyd wrote: Adam Vigil wrote: A national gathering? Sounds like we should meet where the rest of the U.S.A does when they want everybody to come and have an easy destination point. LAS VEGAS! Adam, Vegas? Vegas? Gimme a break man! I know whyyoudecided on Vegas... You don't want me to show. 'fraid wemight tie up, huh? (Tie up is a good suth'n term...MD canexplain it) You know if we have it in Vegas, thegood Rev'won't be able to attend. He'd lose his job. (notreally) Tongue pressing firmly against my cheek, andstilllobbying for Ralph's symposium in Montana, Harry --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church ====="Gooda' mornin', mister bear!" ...Ride, boldly ride,"The shade replied, -"If you seek for Eldorado!" -- E.A.Poe __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coveragehttp://sports.yahoo.com/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Mar 14 09:54:49 2002 g2EFsm827680 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:54:48 -0600 (authenticated) Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:54:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation --------------1B16D4252A67465FF5AFB254 Patrick, I agree, a naitional gathering would be great. And Ihonestly think that the FFF Symposium is the time and placeto do it. Harry "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: I think a national gathering once every 5 years would begreat. Us guys from the big pond side could share ours andlearn small pond side techniques. A lot of the guy whoattend Corbett lake are not on the list and have a wealthof info they share and to share. --Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com/ Bamboo Rodshttp://www.fbcwin.com/ Our Church --------------1B16D4252A67465FF5AFB254 Patrick, And I honestly think that the FFF Symposium is the time and place to doit. "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote:Ithink a national gathering once every 5 years would be great. Us guys fromthe big pond side could share ours and learn small pond side techniques.A lot of the guy who attend Corbett lake are not on the list and have awealth of info they share and toshare.--Harry Boyd --------------1B16D4252A67465FF5AFB254-- from trpgo@msn.com Thu Mar 14 11:12:12 2002 g2EHCB803369 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:12:12 - Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:12:06 -0800 Subject: Re: 3M's Perfect-it/Finesse-it FILETIME=[5E4A2D20:01C1CB7B] Where can you purchase the 3M Perfect-it and Finess-it products? Tom Subject: Re: 3M's Perfect-it/Finesse-it Chad;You want the Perfect-It II Rubbing Compound #39002 and Finesse-It IIMachine Polish #39003.John chad wigham wrote: Thought I'd try again, others interested too. Need part or ordernumbers for 3M's Perfect-it & Finess it polish. 3M makes severalcompounds under the Perfect-it name; looking for correct product.Thanks in advance, Chad n you purchase the 3M Perfect-it and Finess-it products? = = t=he Perfect-It II Rubbing Compound #39002 and Finesse-It IIMachine Pol= mbers for 3M's Perfect-it & Finess it polish. 3M makes ; compounds under the Perfect-it name; looking for correctproduct.&g=t; Thanks in advance, Chad from canazon@mindspring.com Thu Mar 14 12:22:49 2002 g2EIMm806883 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:22:48 -0600 helo=oemcomputer) id 16lZs7-00068P-00; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:22:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation harry,i think the fff conclave would be the place, but can they accomadate =500 or 600 hundred of us? and do you think they would want more than a =handful? i mean, you're not talkin' 50 or 60 guys and girls sittin' down =eatin jambalaya now. i guess they couldn't refuse nunley, but all of us! =i can picture it now. a bloody scene. men, women and children, and =bamboo too!, floating downriver. the national guard. shawn pineo =and his gang keeping an eye on the rowdies from the north country. the =action in livingston would be hot and heavy. they'll have to make a new = and don't forget the fish. we might very well sound the death knell = would be safe from our cast. how many times would the same fish be =caught by one of our learned piscatorial members. how many times would a =trout fooled into taking our offering before he never rose again! we =could set the fishery back a hundred years. catch and release, catch and =release. it would become the mantra for the enviro-freak crowd. mike Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation I agree, a naitional gathering would be great. And I honestly = I think a national gathering once every 5 years would be great. Us =guys from the big pond side could share ours and learn small pond side =techniques. A lot of the guy who attend Corbett lake are not on the list =and have a wealth of info they share and to share. harry, can they accomadate 500 or 600 hundred of us? and do you think they = more than a handful? i mean, you're not talkin' 50 or 60 guys = make a new version of the song, livingston saturday nite. sound the death knell for catch and release fishing. all those sore = beauties. what fish would be safe from our cast. how many times would = fish be caught by one of our learned piscatorial members. how many times = trout fooled into taking our offering before he never rose again! we = the fishery back a hundred years. catch and release, catch and release. = become the mantra for the enviro-freak crowd. mike ginal Message ----- Harry= Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Was Dimension = Experimentation I honestly think that the FFF Symposium is the time and place to do = think a national gathering once every 5 years would be great. Us = the big pond side could share ours and learn small pond side = lot of the guy who attend Corbett lake are not on the list and have = of info they share and toshare.-- = from canazon@mindspring.com Thu Mar 14 13:31:56 2002 g2EJVt811497 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:31:55 -0600 helo=oemcomputer) id 16lawy-0002WE-00; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:31:44 -0500 "Coffey, Patrick W" Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation sorry guys, i need to get out on the river for a while. i am =suffering from cabin fever or trout madness? Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation harry,i think the fff conclave would be the place, but can they = = madness? ----- Original Message ----- canazon Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 = PMSubject: Re: Was Dimension = Experimentation harry, but can they accomadate 500 or 600 hundred of = from CALucker@aol.com Thu Mar 14 13:32:40 2002 g2EJWe811766 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:32:40 - Subject: Re: Calculating rpms with pulleys Good job. Mills are fun, aren't they? Here's what I use: Five inch pulley divided by three inch pulley equals 1.666. Now multiply 1.666 times 3450 and you get 5,749.9997, or 5750rpm -- pretty standard for 3 inch or 2.75 inch cutters. It is what Dickerson used Ten inch pulley divided by three inch pulley equals 3.333. Multiply your 1725 motor by 3.333 and you have the same 5,750 rpm. Remember, rpm's are not what are important. What you need to know issurface speed of the cutters. Take a 2.75 inch diameter cutter and multiply that diameter by pi, or 3.1416 and you get 8.64. Multiply 8.64 by 5750 and you get 49,677 inches per minute of cutter teeth travel. Divide by twelve and you get 4,140 feet per minute. Charlie Jenkins, for example, uses two inch cutters at about 9000 rpm. Do the math and you realize that he gets 4,712 feet per minute.Now here is another variable -- how many teeth you have and how many individual tooth bites or cuts per second or minute. That is important too -- very important. Then you have your relief angles behind the cutter faces and lots more stuff.Chris Lucker fun, aren't they? Here's what I use: Five inch pulley divided by three inch pulley equals cutter and multiply that diameter by pi, or 3.1416 and you get 8.64. Now here is another variable -- how many teeth you have and how many cutter faces and lots more stuff.Chris Lucker from wkifer@harborside.com Thu Mar 14 13:33:12 2002 g2EJXB811981 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:33:11 - Subject: National Gathering --=======2BEF5B4C======= format=flowed Gentlemen, This is a must do!!! The FFF conclave, while not exactly centrally located, would be an ideal time and place to hold it. The Livingston Chamber of Commerce would do just about anything to attract that many people, along with their dollars. The top flyfishers, flytiers and rodmakers all in one place at the same time. Kind of boggles the mind don't it? What an enormous knowledge pool. Think of the networking opportunities. Great things could come of this. I, for one, give it a hearty thumbs up!! Wayne --=======2BEF5B4C=======-- from tapanisalmi@hotmail.com Thu Mar 14 13:37:12 2002 g2EJbB813158 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:37:11 - Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:36:58 -0800 Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:36:58 GMT Subject: grand and smaller experiments FILETIME=[9B26AED0:01C1CB8F] Hi,I have been reading with great interest the topics of experimentation with taper and geometry of cane rod during last days.A couple of weeks ago I reported about my little experiment to build an inside-out rod (all the six strips turned 60 degrees) with the power fibres as a star-like construction inside the rod.Now I have the rods completed and have compared the star- like one to a normal build one. I still can find no difference in stiffness between the two constructions!I suggest you to try the inside-out construction for easy experimentation: you can simply sand, scrape or plane the rod thinner to modify the taper because the power fibres are inside the rod!with regardsTapani Salmihome: www.peukalo.pp.fi _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from dpvbkjs@somtel.com Thu Mar 14 14:52:37 2002 g2EKqa818389 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:52:36 - Subject: National Gathering Hi, Bob M and all, The tailgate will be traveling from Maine (with the rest of the truck andKodiak) to Grayling AND Livingston. We did switch to a white truck with agray cap, but the license plate is still the giveway. Welcome one and all!Bob- are you going to make it to Grayling again? David and Kat Patrick. there is such a place...Dave and Kat's tailgate in Grayling. Gee, Iwas there, where were the rest of you guys.-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:21 AM Cc: Coffey, Patrick W; 'Adam Vigil'; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Some day we ought to find someplace in the U.S. for all of us to gettogether and drink beer and flap our jaws. We all know each otherspersonalities from the emails but it would be nice to put faces to them andbody english also. Patrick.there is such a place...Dave and Kat's tailgate in Grayling. Gee, I was there,where were the rest of you guys.style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN- LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2pxsolid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">size=2>--- --Original Message-----From:owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu PatrickWSent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:21 'dmanders@telusplanet.net'; aport@si.rr.comCc: Coffey,Patrick W;'Adam Vigil'; rodmakers@mail.wustl.eduSubject: RE: WasDimensionincreases, Now Experimentationclass=268591814-13032002>Someday we ought to find someplace in the U.S. for all of us to get together anddrink beer and flap our jaws. We all know each others personalities fromtheemails but it would be nice to put faces to them and body englishalso. from dati@selway.umt.edu Thu Mar 14 14:57:46 2002 g2EKvj818934 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:57:45 - for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:57:34 - Subject: national gathering When is the gathering in Livingston? from saweiss@flash.net Thu Mar 14 15:01:22 2002 g2EL1K819389 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:01:20 - g2EL1JR40454 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:01:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Rod Tubes Organization: Prodigy Internet Bill,I use acetone. It will, however soften the surface if you use too much.Steve To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod practices =including tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the manufaturer's =unsightly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill Bill, much.Steve To The List traditional rod practices including tubes and cases. = stakes? Bill from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Mar 14 15:20:38 2002 g2ELKb820910 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:20:37 - Subject: Re: national gathering Starts Monday Aug 5 with rod building.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: national gathering When is the gathering in Livingston? from rextutor@yahoo.com Thu Mar 14 16:08:53 2002 g2EM8r824454 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:08:53 - 14 Mar 2002 14:08:52 PST Subject: Re: national gathering August 8-10 2002 info at http://www.ida.net/users/rmoon/Symposium/I hope to be there--- Darin J Law wrote: When is the gathering in Livingston? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coveragehttp://sports.yahoo.com/ from rextutor@yahoo.com Thu Mar 14 16:10:10 2002 g2EMA9824789 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:10:09 - 14 Mar 2002 14:10:08 PST Subject: Re: national gathering RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu RayReally ? Monday ? all the adds say the 8th ? Where didyou get that info ?TIA--- Ray Gould wrote: Starts Monday Aug 5 with rod building.Ray----- Original Message ----- From: "Darin J Law" Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 12:57 PMSubject: national gathering When is the gathering in Livingston? __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coveragehttp://sports.yahoo.com/ from rcurry@ttlc.net Thu Mar 14 16:17:44 2002 g2EMHh826491 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:17:43 - User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4)Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 Subject: Mapril contest on Overmywaders Thanks to an anonymous donor, we have another silk fly line contest.-- Best regards, Reed http://www.overmywaders.com/ >Fromk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 14 17:36:56 2002 Received: fromhitchcock.mail.mindspring.net (hitchcock.mail.mindspring.net #1) id 16lem5-00018S-00; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:36:45 -0500 Received: bysmui08.eng00.mindspring.net id SAA0000004195; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Rod Tubes Sender: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Message-ID:X- k5vkq@ix.netcom.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Alcohol on a rag. For the really resistant, use acetone.Onis k5vkq@ix.netcom.com fiveside@net-gate.com wrote: To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod practices including tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the manufaturer's unsightly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Thu Mar 14 17:38:29 2002 g2ENcS801673 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:38:28 -0600 Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:38:15 -0800 Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:38:15 GMT Subject: Brian Creek FILETIME=[500BE010:01C1CBB1] Brian,Please e-mail me off list. I lost your address. Jim _________________________________________________________________MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx from caneman@clnk.com Thu Mar 14 17:53:34 2002 g2ENrX802325 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:53:33 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:51:11 -0600 Subject: I'm Baaaaaack!!! Hi folks...Well, I'm back in town, back to the 'puter and back to work after theSowbug this weekend! By the way, New Zealand did NOT suck. Not only was itone of the most beautiful places I've ever been in my life, but the peoplethere are fantastic.Publicly, I'd like to extend a big "Thank You" to Ian and Nova Kearney never find.As for me... yeah, I know, there's been talk of lost limbs and massivegashes, but I got out of New Zealand with only one small cut to my head (I'msure Jerry Madigan will post pics later! *S*) a few briar scratches andabout 1.5 million Sand Fly bites! Really good for me to have been somewhereand not come home with a medical bill!There was one small problem, however... one that concerns me deeplyabout one of our list members. Seems Mike Roberts, my constant fishingcompanion on the trip, got some bad advice from a particular list member...we'll continue this later, but does anyone remember that old canned Cat Foodthey used to sell, or may still... something " 'n Boots" ??? Mr Young? Any Mike, I think we talked about this, but I'm tired (jet lag) so maybe youcan remember the specifics of the problem... Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com from wlwalter77us@yahoo.com Thu Mar 14 18:04:46 2002 g2F04j802902 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:04:45 - Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:04:45 PST Subject: Re: Rod Tubes I simply sand the markings off. You start with 400grit and get most of it off and then use 600 andpolish with some 1000 or 1500. To me its a bettersolution than using a solvent and they come cleanfairly easy. Bill W.--- k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: Alcohol on a rag. For the really resistant, useacetone. Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com fiveside@net-gate.com wrote: To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod practices including tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the manufaturer's unsightly marking from myPVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coveragehttp://sports.yahoo.com/ from channer@frontier.net Thu Mar 14 18:32:17 2002 g2F0WH803768 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:32:17 - for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:32:23 - Subject: Re: Rod Tubes Laquer thinner "William R. Fink" wrote: To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod practicesincluding tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the manufaturer'sunsightly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill from channer@frontier.net Thu Mar 14 18:33:47 2002 g2F0Xk803940 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:33:46 - for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:33:54 - Subject: Re: Rod Tubes Bill;If you don't get a cheep buzz, what's the point?john Bill Walters wrote: I simply sand the markings off. You start with 400grit and get most of it off and then use 600 andpolish with some 1000 or 1500. To me its a bettersolution than using a solvent and they come cleanfairly easy. Bill W.--- k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: Alcohol on a rag. For the really resistant, useacetone. Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com fiveside@net-gate.com wrote: To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate fromtraditional rod practices including tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means ofremoving the manufaturer's unsightly marking from myPVC tomatostakes?Thanks.Bill __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coveragehttp://sports.yahoo.com/ from channer@frontier.net Thu Mar 14 18:38:44 2002 g2F0ch804330 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:38:43 - for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:38:52 - Subject: Re: Calculating rpms with pulleys Chris;Does it really have to be that complicated?? You're beginning to soundlike Garrison,LOL. Can't I just put an X diameter pully on the shaft anda Y diameter on the motor and if it cuts good call it a done deal? Igotta go get some aspirin.john CALucker@aol.com wrote: Good job. Mills are fun, aren't they? Here's what I use: Five inch pulley divided by three inch pulleyequals 1.666. Now multiply 1.666 times 3450 and you get 5,749.9997,or 5750 rpm -- pretty standard for 3 inch or 2.75 inch cutters. It iswhat Dickerson used for both size cutters, for example.Ten inch pulley divided by three inch pulley equals 3.333. Multiplyyour 1725 motor by 3.333 and you have the same 5,750 rpm.Remember, rpm's are not what are important. What you need to know issurface speed of the cutters. Take a 2.75 inch diameter cutter andmultiply that diameter by pi, or 3.1416 and you get 8.64. Multiply8.64 by 5750 and you get 49,677 inches per minute of cutter teethtravel. Divide by twelve and you get 4,140 feet per minute. CharlieJenkins, for example, uses two inch cutters at about 9000 rpm. Do themath and you realize that he gets 4,712 feet per minute.Now here is another variable -- how many teeth you have and how manyindividual tooth bites or cuts per second or minute. That isimportant too -- very important. Then you have your relief anglesbehind the cutter faces and lots more stuff.Chris Lucker from Dennishigham@cs.com Thu Mar 14 19:04:26 2002 g2F14Q805034 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:04:26 - Subject: Re: national gathering RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Rex,The Bamboo Symposium will be Thru. the 8th thru Sat. the 10th but there isa bamboo rodmaking class Mon the 5th thru Wed the 7th. Bob Nunley, JohnZimny, Ray Gould, Bob Clark, Marty Karstetter, Dave Mosley, Ralph Moon (andme...I'm the water boy:-} are teaching the class so the unofficial bamboo gathering could easily start Mon. the 5th.Check out www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium for the complete schedule.See you in Livingston!! Dennis from CALucker@aol.com Thu Mar 14 19:18:29 2002 g2F1IT805477 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:18:29 - Subject: Re: Calculating rpms with pulleys In a message dated 3/14/02 4:39:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, channer@frontier.net writes: Does it really have to be that complicated?? You're beginning to soundlike Garrison,LOL. Can't I just put an X diameter pulley on the shaft anda Y diameter on the motor and if it cuts good call it a done deal? I I wasn't trying to make it complicated, just trying to make the pulley choice easier so you can eliminate much of the trial and error. The feet per minute cuts per second or per minute is important -- along with relief behind the cutters -- for clean cuts. Some folks out there claim that they cannot get clean cuts with a mill. They should take another look at their cuts per second (how many teeth/rpm/diameter variables) and the relief behind the cutter faces. Remember, they make different table saw blades for different materials and different tooth angles for different cuts -- ripping, cross grain etc. Same thing about milling machines for bamboo. It just so happens that we bamboo guys get pretty lucky with the cheap High Speed Steel 2.75 inch cutters with way too many teeth designed to machine metal. We get even better results with custom carbide cutters with better relief angles and fewer teeth. Although, I am still undecided about the value of carbide. I like how sharp HSS gets. Carbide cannot be made as sharp as HSS, although carbide stays sharper longer -- at least that's what my tool sharpener tells me. I am talking about finish mills, by the way. You have lots more leeway with rough mills. And don't get me wrong about finish mills -- you have lots of leeway with them too. God knows I am not the best machinist and themajority of my stuff works.Chris (the trial and error method) Lucker In a message dated 3/14/02 4:39:26 PM PacificStandard Time, channer@frontier.net writes: Does it really have to bethat complicated?? You're beginning to soundlike Garrison,LOL. Can't I just put an X diameter pulley on the shaft anda Y diameter on the motor and if it cuts good call it a done deal? I I wasn't trying to make it complicated, just trying to make the pulley choice minute for the cutters IS important, in fact it is what is really important.And the cuts per second or per minute is important -- along with relief behind their cuts per second (how many teeth/rpm/diameter variables) and the Remember, they make different table saw blades for different materials and we bamboo guys get pretty lucky with the cheap High Speed Steel 2.75 inch even better results with custom carbide cutters with better relief angles sharp as HSS, although carbide stays sharper longer -- at least that's whatmy tool sharpener tells me. and the majority of my stuff works.Chris (the trial and error method) Lucker from cathcreek@hotmail.com Thu Mar 14 19:25:35 2002 g2F1PY805907 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:25:34 - Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:25:21 -0800 Fri, 15 Mar 2002 01:25:21 GMT dati@selway.umt.edu, RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: national gathering FILETIME=[46138BD0:01C1CBC0] You mean I got bumped as the waterboy? Maybe I can be Bob N's bandage sticker onner. Rob Clarke From: Dennishigham@cs.com RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: national gatheringDate: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:03:20 EST Rex,The Bamboo Symposium will be Thru. the 8th thru Sat. the 10th but thereis abamboo rodmaking class Mon the 5th thru Wed the 7th. Bob Nunley, John Zimny,Ray Gould, Bob Clark, Marty Karstetter, Dave Mosley, Ralph Moon (and me...I'mthe water boy:-} are teaching the class so the unofficial bamboo gatheringcould easily start Mon. the 5th.Check out www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium for the completeschedule.See you in Livingston!! Dennis _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com from rvenneri@ulster.net Thu Mar 14 19:47:23 2002 g2F1lM806729 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:47:22 - 0500 Organization: Venneri's Custom Components Subject: Straightening techniques Hey GuysDoes anybody have any nice Straightening techniques to help withstraightening the blanks after it is sanded. I was a sheet metal mech benching it flat but I am having a hard time getting the blanksstraight. Any help would be appreciated Best RegardsBob V from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Mar 14 20:17:30 2002 g2F2HT807567 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:17:29 - (authenticated) for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:17:21 -0800 Subject: Re: Rod Tubes I just buy the aluminum tubes and don't spend all thattime scrubbing and sanding 'em up purty. All that work,and when you're finished, you still have a plastictube... seems like I remember something about a silkpurse and a sow's ear. Harry someone wrote: I simply sand the markings off. You start with 400grit and get most of it off and then use 600 andpolish with some 1000 or 1500. To me its a bettersolution than using a solvent and they come cleanfairly easy. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Thu Mar 14 20:21:11 2002 g2F2LB807795 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:21:11 - Subject: Re: Straightening techniques I have a flat work table that I put the blank on and roll it, looking at thelight coming under the blank. When I find a high spot I make an 'X' on theapex with a pencil or white china marker. I mark all the high spots. ThenI heat the blank over a heat gun and straighten it by gently bending ituntil it is straight. I sight along the blank with good light and a darkbackground from each end to see how I'm doing. I cuss much and mightily. Iburn my fingers and cuss with greater enthusiasm. My wife yells at me thatI'm causing permanent harm to the children's psyche. I mumble that theyshould skip the intermediary steps and try to straighten this damn blank ifshe wants to see psyche damage. Then I go back to work.Marking. Heating. Straightening. Sighting. Cussing. Mumbling. Lots ofmumbling... Best Fishes, Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Straightening techniques Hey GuysDoes anybody have any nice Straightening techniques to help withstraightening the blanks after it is sanded. I was a sheet metal mech benching it flat but I am having a hard time getting the blanksstraight. Any help would be appreciated Best RegardsBob V from bob@downandacross.com Thu Mar 14 20:26:26 2002 g2F2QP808095 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:26:25 - "rodmakers" Subject: RE: Straightening techniques Brian:The cussing is the real key. Glad you mentioned that on the list.Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Straightening techniques I have a flat work table that I put the blank on and roll it, looking at thelight coming under the blank. When I find a high spot I make an 'X' on theapex with a pencil or white china marker. I mark all the high spots. ThenI heat the blank over a heat gun and straighten it by gently bending ituntil it is straight. I sight along the blank with good light and a darkbackground from each end to see how I'm doing. I cuss much and mightily. Iburn my fingers and cuss with greater enthusiasm. My wife yells at me thatI'm causing permanent harm to the children's psyche. I mumble that theyshould skip the intermediary steps and try to straighten this damn blank ifshe wants to see psyche damage. Then I go back to work.Marking. Heating. Straightening. Sighting. Cussing. Mumbling. Lots ofmumbling... Best Fishes, Brian from channer@frontier.net Thu Mar 14 20:30:26 2002 g2F2UP808412 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:30:25 - for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:30:34 - Subject: Re: Calculating rpms with pulleys chris;Just shows to go ya how far dumb luck will take you. I got the HSScutters, domestic, not the imports, and hooked everything up to the 3450rpm motor that used to be on my table saw, 2.5" pully on the motor and3" on the shaft and everything seems to work just fine. I got about 12rods worth of strips out of the first pair, including cutting thetemplates. The main thing that has improved the quality of my suts inhaving a full length template and a rack and pinion feed. I just feed byturning a crank, but it is much smoother and no burns like when I waspulling them thru by hand and just cutting a straight triangle. Just gotmy shim stock for making indivisual patterns for each taper, time willtell if this contraption can cut a finished strip.john from channer@frontier.net Thu Mar 14 20:34:09 2002 g2F2Y8808634 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:34:08 - for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:34:18 - Subject: Re: Straightening techniques Yup, some jobs require lots of profanity, like concrete andstraightening blanks!john "Brian D. Creek" wrote: I have a flat work table that I put the blank on and roll it, looking at thelight coming under the blank. When I find a high spot I make an 'X' on theapex with a pencil or white china marker. I mark all the high spots. ThenI heat the blank over a heat gun and straighten it by gently bending ituntil it is straight. I sight along the blank with good light and a darkbackground from each end to see how I'm doing. I cuss much and mightily. Iburn my fingers and cuss with greater enthusiasm. My wife yells at methatI'm causing permanent harm to the children's psyche. I mumble that theyshould skip the intermediary steps and try to straighten this damn blank ifshe wants to see psyche damage. Then I go back to work.Marking. Heating. Straightening. Sighting. Cussing. Mumbling. Lots ofmumbling... Best Fishes, Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Robert Venneri" Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 11:46 PMSubject: Straightening techniques Hey GuysDoes anybody have any nice Straightening techniques to help withstraightening the blanks after it is sanded. I was a sheet metal mech benching it flat but I am having a hard time getting the blanksstraight. Any help would be appreciated Best RegardsBob V from atlasc1@earthlink.net Thu Mar 14 20:40:40 2002 g2F2ed809010 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:40:39 -0600 ([209.179.147.242] helo=computer) id 16lhe1-0006Hi-00; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:40:37 -0800 Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Harry, I am sure the Baptist Church of Las Vegas would even put you up for the = The symposium in Montana sounds like a good place also. But when Montana =calls meetings are the last things on my mind. I mean give me a break =Ralph lives on the Henry's Fork. When he goes to Montana it is like =slumming. Adam Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation A national gathering? Sounds like we should meet where the rest of =the U.S.A does when they want everybody to come and have an easy =destination point. LAS VEGAS! Vegas? Vegas? Gimme a break man! I know why you decided on =Vegas... You don't want me to show. 'fraid we might tie up, huh? (Tie =up is a good suth'n term ...MD can explain it) You know if we have it =in Vegas, the good Rev' won't be able to attend. He'd lose his job. = Tongue pressing firmly against my cheek, and still lobbying for = Harry, I am sure the Baptist Church of Las = even put you up for the weekend. The symposium in Montana sounds like a= also. But when Montana calls meetings are the last things on my mind. I = it is like slumming. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Harry= Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 = AMSubject: Re: Was Dimension = Experimentation A = Sounds like we should meet where the rest of the U.S.A does when = VEGAS! = from jojo@ipa.net Thu Mar 14 20:56:18 2002 g2F2uH809573 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:56:17 -0600 helo=default) id 16lht9-0005Sf-00 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:56:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Straightening techniques In my experience, this is an integral part of rodmaking, without which properrods cannot be made.Don't reserve it for just straightening duties, as you're selling yourselfshort. Learning toeffortlessly vituperate with a lengthy, invective stream of expletives adds tothe ebb and flow ofrodmaking, bringing with it a new dimensional experience. I'm out in thecountry, and yet each ofthe neighbors is well versed in the proper vocabulary for rodmaking. What aservice I've performed M-D Brian:The cussing is the real key. Glad you mentioned that on the list.Bob I have a flat work table that I put the blank on and roll it, looking at thelight coming under the blank. When I find a high spot I make an 'X' on theapex with a pencil or white china marker. I mark all the high spots. ThenI heat the blank over a heat gun and straighten it by gently bending ituntil it is straight. I sight along the blank with good light and a darkbackground from each end to see how I'm doing. I cuss much and mightily. Iburn my fingers and cuss with greater enthusiasm. My wife yells at me thatI'm causing permanent harm to the children's psyche. I mumble that theyshould skip the intermediary steps and try to straighten this damn blank ifshe wants to see psyche damage. Then I go back to work.Marking. Heating. Straightening. Sighting. Cussing. Mumbling. Lots ofmumbling... Best Fishes, Brian from twilhelm@occasionalrod.com Thu Mar 14 21:11:33 2002 g2F3BX810121 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:11:33 -0600 Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:11:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Straightening techniques vituperate? invective? I thought I was progressing nicely in this craft, but now I wonder if I willever be a worthy to call myself a maker? You've set the bar pretty highwith those two. Humbly,tim ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Straightening techniques In my experience, this is an integral part of rodmaking, without which proper rods cannot be made. Don't reserve it for just straightening duties, as you're selling yourself short. Learning to effortlessly vituperate with a lengthy, invective stream of expletives adds to the ebb and flow of rodmaking, bringing with it a new dimensional experience. I'm out in the country, and yet each of the neighbors is well versed in the proper vocabulary for rodmaking. What a service I've performed M-D From: "Bob Maulucci" Brian:The cussing is the real key. Glad you mentioned that on the list.Bob I have a flat work table that I put the blank on and roll it, looking at the light coming under the blank. When I find a high spot I make an 'X' on the apex with a pencil or white china marker. I mark all the high spots. Then I heat the blank over a heat gun and straighten it by gently bending ituntil it is straight. I sight along the blank with good light and a darkbackground from each end to see how I'm doing. I cuss much and mightily. I burn my fingers and cuss with greater enthusiasm. My wife yells at me that I'm causing permanent harm to the children's psyche. I mumble that theyshould skip the intermediary steps and try to straighten this damn blank if she wants to see psyche damage. Then I go back to work.Marking. Heating. Straightening. Sighting. Cussing. Mumbling. Lots of mumbling... Best Fishes, Brian from dryfly@erols.com Thu Mar 14 21:21:10 2002 g2F3L9810527 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:21:09 - ([208.58.195.108] helo=homeserver) id 16liHE-0003gw-00; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:21:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Straightening techniques No wonder I have more trouble than most straightening my sections...I can'twait to go to the shop tonight and scare the neighbors! ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Straightening techniques Yup, some jobs require lots of profanity, like concrete andstraightening blanks!john "Brian D. Creek" wrote: I have a flat work table that I put the blank on and roll it, looking at the light coming under the blank. When I find a high spot I make an 'X' on the apex with a pencil or white china marker. I mark all the high spots. Then I heat the blank over a heat gun and straighten it by gently bending ituntil it is straight. I sight along the blank with good light and a dark background from each end to see how I'm doing. I cuss much and mightily. I burn my fingers and cuss with greater enthusiasm. My wife yells at me that I'm causing permanent harm to the children's psyche. I mumble that theyshould skip the intermediary steps and try to straighten this damn blank if she wants to see psyche damage. Then I go back to work.Marking. Heating. Straightening. Sighting. Cussing. Mumbling. Lots of mumbling... Best Fishes, Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Robert Venneri" Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 11:46 PMSubject: Straightening techniques Hey GuysDoes anybody have any nice Straightening techniques to help withstraightening the blanks after it is sanded. I was a sheet metal mech and benching it flat but I am having a hard time getting the blanksstraight. Any help would be appreciated Best RegardsBob V from mrc@mars.plala.or.jp Thu Mar 14 21:31:34 2002 g2F3VX811105 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:31:33 - id g2F3VRk12305; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:31:27 +0900 (JST) id MAA02205; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:31:26 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Straightening techniques Hi Bob, Place a section on a flat wood bar and run a hot iron on six flats slowly.It works great especially for straightening twist. Jananese traditional method of straightening doglegs, "Tamegi" is also aneat tool.To make this, prepare a wood piece with 1"x1"x1'(length), andmake a groove on it with 45 degree angle against the side of the wood, atabout2~3" apart to the end. Please see below picture.. / / is the groove,though the angle of groove is opposite if you are right handed. (there is noreverse character on my keyboard). Depth of the groove is about a half ofthe wood width.-------------------/ /-------------------Width of the groove should hold the thickness of blanks. So youmay need three width's of groove, for butt, mid and tip. For tip, thelength ofwood piece will do in your palm size. Heat the blank at a dogleg, put the part in a groove and make a lever actionto unbend. For slow and long bend, heat the length of bend and move thelever as if you polish out the bend. You can do it by looking the blank through against the light of window. Max Hey GuysDoes anybody have any nice Straightening techniques to help withstraightening the blanks after it is sanded. I was a sheet metal mech benching it flat but I am having a hard time getting the blanksstraight. Any help would be appreciated Best RegardsBob V from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Mar 14 21:31:56 2002 g2F3Vt811166 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:31:55 - (authenticated) Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:31:47 -0800 rodmakers Subject: Re: Straightening techniques Yep, Got one in the shop now that just refused to be straightened till I startedtalking about it's Momma. Harry Bob Maulucci wrote: Brian:The cussing is the real key. Glad you mentioned that on the list. -- -- Harry Boyd --http://www.canerods.com/ -- Bamboo Rods -- http://www.fbcwin.com/ -- Our Church -- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Mar 14 21:38:56 2002 g2F3cs811657 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:38:54 - Subject: Re: Rod Tubes I have a rod case that is a core of PVC covered with canvas with leather Tony At 09:41 AM 3/14/02 -0500, William R. Fink wrote: To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod practices including tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the manufaturer's unsightly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There was only ever one good man in Parlament and he was Guy Forks Patrick Moore /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Mar 14 21:55:42 2002 g2F3tf812217 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:55:41 - Subject: Re: I'm Baaaaaack!!! Bob,The sand flys can be a problem that's for sure. There was one small problem, however... one that concerns me deeply about one of our list members. Seems Mike Roberts, my constant fishingcompanion on the trip, got some bad advice from a particular list member...we'll continue this later, but does anyone remember that old canned CatFoodthey used to sell, or may still... something " 'n Boots" ??? Mr Young? Any I wonder what you're alluding to? I lent mike my neoprene hip waders which have always worked well for me though they sometimes are a bit shy of height in some places being neoprene it's impossible to tell if you get wet from sweat or water AND also being neoprene they keep you warm when wet just like a wet suit so what's the problem ? [:-)] I guess it's just my personal preference in the rivers to fish but IMHO for the most part if you wade beyond thigh height in those places you'll drown because of the flow.Mike wasn't *swimming* in them was he??? [:-)] Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There was only ever one good man in Parlament and he was Guy Forks Patrick Moore /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Mar 14 22:08:19 2002 g2F48H813335 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:08:18 -0600 "Rodmakers discussion group" Subject: Re: Straightening techniques A healthy grasp of the more blue descriptive type of words is a handy thing to have around this part of the world. There are times if you don't have a serious case of Turete (sp??) syndrome you wont be understood. [:-)] I can remember very well a meeting of the board and managers of a place I was involved with. There were 12 people there and in one particularly frictious *discussion* all that anybody was saying were oaths, expletives and worse (threats of anatomical impossibilities) with a sprinkling of words of genuine argument.After 5 mins of this we all sort of realised the situation so broke for lunch which was mainly liquid and the afternoon went much more smoothly being better lubricated as it was. Wouldn't have been the same without the expletives though. [:-)] Tony At 10:05 PM 3/14/02 -0500, Tim Wilhelm wrote: vituperate? invective? I thought I was progressing nicely in this craft, but now I wonder if I willever be a worthy to call myself a maker? You've set the bar pretty highwith those two. Humbly,tim ----- Original Message -----From: "Jojo DeLancier" Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:55 PMSubject: Re: Straightening techniques In my experience, this is an integral part of rodmaking, without which proper rods cannot be made. Don't reserve it for just straightening duties, as you're selling yourself short. Learning to effortlessly vituperate with a lengthy, invective stream of expletives adds to the ebb and flow of rodmaking, bringing with it a new dimensional experience. I'm out in the country, and yet each of the neighbors is well versed in the proper vocabulary for rodmaking.What a service I've performed M-D From: "Bob Maulucci" Brian:The cussing is the real key. Glad you mentioned that on the list.Bob I have a flat work table that I put the blank on and roll it, looking at the light coming under the blank. When I find a high spot I make an 'X' on the apex with a pencil or white china marker. I mark all the high spots. Then I heat the blank over a heat gun and straighten it by gently bending ituntil it is straight. I sight along the blank with good light and a darkbackground from each end to see how I'm doing. I cuss much andmightily. I burn my fingers and cuss with greater enthusiasm. My wife yells at me that I'm causing permanent harm to the children's psyche. I mumble that theyshould skip the intermediary steps and try to straighten this damn blank if she wants to see psyche damage. Then I go back to work.Marking. Heating. Straightening. Sighting. Cussing. Mumbling. Lots of mumbling... Best Fishes, Brian /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There was only ever one good man in Parlament and he was Guy Forks Patrick Moore /*************************************************************************/ from channer@frontier.net Thu Mar 14 22:15:38 2002 g2F4Fb814824 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:15:37 - for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:15:48 - Subject: Re: Calculating rpms with pulleys Tom;I don't have any at the moment( I won't go into "why", but SHE hadsomething to do with it). It's not that hard, think about what you want to do, then go to the MSC catalogue and find the stuff you need to do itwith, they have most of it, except some C-channel, which you can get ata fabricators.john Tom Hardy wrote: Sounds great John! Congratulations! If you take any pictures of thismachine, I would really love to see them, I need to make something like thismyself, even if it only cuts a straight taper to finish by hand.Tom Hardy From: channer Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:31:07 -0700Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Calculating rpms with pulleys chris;Just shows to go ya how far dumb luck will take you. I got the HSScutters, domestic, not the imports, and hooked everything up to the3450rpm motor that used to be on my table saw, 2.5" pully on the motor and3" on the shaft and everything seems to work just fine. I got about 12rods worth of strips out of the first pair, including cutting thetemplates. The main thing that has improved the quality of my suts inhaving a full length template and a rack and pinion feed. I just feed byturning a crank, but it is much smoother and no burns like when I waspulling them thru by hand and just cutting a straight triangle. Just gotmy shim stock for making indivisual patterns for each taper, time willtell if this contraption can cut a finished strip.john from tedknott@cogeco.ca Thu Mar 14 22:16:56 2002 g2F4Gt815187 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:16:55 - "rodmakers" Subject: Re: Straightening techniques Straightening starts with gluing. I have an old planing form that wasovercut and is suitable only for planing salt water trolling rods, so itsbeen dedicated to being a bench support for holding sections when sanding,scraping or GLUING. You can get the same effect by opening up your planingform. Right out of the binder I place the section in this form and wipe thesection firmly with a damp rag to seat it snugly in place. I rotate thesection one flat and wipe again, repeat, repeat again, until all six flatshave been wiped. At this point the section should be fairly flat andstraight in the form. I now pass my heat gun over the section a dozen timesor so, rotating the section as I do this. This partially sets the glue upwhile the section is seated in the form, and the section is straight, rigidand firm enough to now transfer to my oven. The sections are now heat setat a @250 degrees F. setting allowed to cool to room temperature. Thesections come out quite straight, but still need a little bit of "tweaking"to "perfect ??" straightness. from bdcbfr@chartermi.net Thu Mar 14 23:04:18 2002 g2F54H817305 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:04:17 - Subject: Re: Straightening techniques You are certainly right. I couldn't find the weight I usually use to setbinder tension once and just guessed at the tension. Was way to tight andended up with almost a spiral rod. Howells' book has a pretty gooddiscussion of gluing and straightening. Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Straightening techniques Straightening starts with gluing. I have an old planing form that wasovercut and is suitable only for planing salt water trolling rods, so itsbeen dedicated to being a bench support for holding sections when sanding,scraping or GLUING. You can get the same effect by opening up your planing form. Right out of the binder I place the section in this form and wipe the section firmly with a damp rag to seat it snugly in place. I rotate thesection one flat and wipe again, repeat, repeat again, until all six flatshave been wiped. At this point the section should be fairly flat andstraight in the form. I now pass my heat gun over the section a dozen times or so, rotating the section as I do this. This partially sets the glue upwhile the section is seated in the form, and the section is straight, rigid and firm enough to now transfer to my oven. The sections are now heatsetat a @250 degrees F. setting allowed to cool to room temperature. Thesections come out quite straight, but still need a little bit of "tweaking" to "perfect ??" straightness. from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Thu Mar 14 23:12:47 2002 g2F5Ck817694 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:12:46 -0600 Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:12:37 -0800 Fri, 15 Mar 2002 05:12:37 GMT Subject: Re: Straightening techniques FILETIME=[06030AA0:01C1CBE0] Bob,The very best way to ensure that your rods are straight is to use an epoxy glue. The epoxy will give you all the time you need to just about get the rod perfect before the rod sets up. I use Epon because it's easy to use but Nyatex also will give you all the time you'll need to get the blank straight. Actually Nyatex will give you even more time then the Epon although Epon will give you a couple of hours working time which should be plenty. With Epon you don't have to rebind or heat cure (some guys don't) and the straightening is easier then with Nyatex. I used Urac for the first dozen rods I made and it was pure hell. Since changing to Epon I feel like I died and went to heaven. As to the straightening of the blank, I use a toaster for heat and a 4 ft rule and my wrist watch for a sense of timing to straighten the blank. It's slightly slower but after ruining a blank with a heat gun I like the toaster much better. Cussin does help. Jim From: Robert Venneri Subject: Straightening techniquesDate: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:46:43 -0800 Hey GuysDoes anybody have any nice Straightening techniques to help withstraightening the blanks after it is sanded. I was a sheet metal mech benching it flat but I am having a hard time getting the blanksstraight. Any help would be appreciated Best RegardsBob V _________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Mar 14 23:22:20 2002 g2F5MI818108 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:22:18 -0600 Subject: Re: Straightening techniques My heat gun flamed out in a most spectacular way, I guess it was just it's way of swearing but this being my second flame out I decided to try an alcohol lamp and I have to say I like it better for all straightening except for those sweeping curves and even then it's not that bad. Tony At 05:12 AM 3/15/02 +0000, Jim Bureau wrote: Bob,The very best way to ensure that your rods are straight is to use an epoxy glue. The epoxy will give you all the time you need to just about get the rod perfect before the rod sets up. I use Epon because it's easy to use but Nyatex also will give you all the time you'll need to get the blank straight. Actually Nyatex will give you even more time then the Epon although Epon will give you a couple of hours working time which should be plenty. With Epon you don't have to rebind or heat cure (some guys don't) and the straightening is easier then with Nyatex. I used Urac Epon I feel like I died and went to heaven. As to the straightening of the blank, I use a toaster for heat and a 4 ft rule and my wrist watch after ruining a blank with a heat gun I like the toaster much better. Cussin does help. Jim From: Robert Venneri Subject: Straightening techniquesDate: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:46:43 -0800 Hey GuysDoes anybody have any nice Straightening techniques to help withstraightening the blanks after it is sanded. I was a sheet metal mech benching it flat but I am having a hard time getting the blanksstraight. Any help would be appreciated Best RegardsBob V _________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html There was only ever one good man in Parlament and he was Guy Forks Patrick Moore /*************************************************************************/ from mrc@mars.plala.or.jp Fri Mar 15 00:39:05 2002 g2F6d4819806 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:39:04 -0600 id g2F6d3w16730; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:39:03 +0900 (JST) id PAA16464; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:39:01 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Straightening techniques Jim, I am also using Epon and happy with it..I'm rebinding the blanks after wiping out the excessives on the surface byvineger about 6 to 8 hours after glue.Do you mean that you can straighten the blanks at the time of wiping out,and no need to rebind? I am threatened to try to straighten while nobinding threads are holiding the strips. If I can straighten the blank atthat time and blak will notdelaminated, it is great. Could you give me a little more explanation? Thanks, Max Bob,The very best way to ensure that your rods are straight is to use an epoxy glue. The epoxy will give you all the time you need to just about get therod perfect before the rod sets up. I use Epon because it's easy to use but Nyatex also will give you all the time you'll need to get the blankstraight. Actually Nyatex will give you even more time then the Eponalthough Epon will give you a couple of hours working time which should beplenty. With Epon you don't have to rebind or heat cure (some guys don't)and the straightening is easier then with Nyatex. I used Urac for the first dozen rods I made and it was pure hell. Since changing to Epon I feel like I died and went to heaven. As to the straightening of the blank, I use atoaster for heat and a 4 ft rule and my wrist watch for a sense of timing to straighten the blank. It's slightly slower but after ruining a blank with a heat gun I like the toaster much better. Cussin does help. Jim From: Robert Venneri Subject: Straightening techniquesDate: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:46:43 -0800 Hey GuysDoes anybody have any nice Straightening techniques to help withstraightening the blanks after it is sanded. I was a sheet metal mech benching it flat but I am having a hard time getting the blanksstraight. Any help would be appreciated Best RegardsBob V _________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Fri Mar 15 01:29:16 2002 g2F7TF820571 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 01:29:15 -0600 Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:29:10 -0800 Fri, 15 Mar 2002 07:29:09 GMT Subject: Re: Straightening techniques FILETIME=[19051720:01C1CBF3] Max,After I bind the blank I immediately clean the bound rod with vineger. About fourty five minutes to one hour later, after the blank has had time to get slightly set up I straighten the blank which is still in the binding string. After the straightening I hang the blank, still in the binding string, for about 12 hours. Then I remove the binding string and sand the remaining glue off the blank. The glue sands off easily but is slightly gummy. I usually do any final straightening a day or two later on as I'm sick of it all by this time, cussin included. Jim From: "Max" Subject: Re: Straightening techniquesDate: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:38:19 +0900 Jim, I am also using Epon and happy with it..I'm rebinding the blanks after wiping out the excessives on the surface byvineger about 6 to 8 hours after glue.Do you mean that you can straighten the blanks at the time of wiping out,and no need to rebind? I am threatened to try to straighten while nobinding threads are holiding the strips. If I can straighten the blank atthat time and blak will notdelaminated, it is great. Could you give me a little more explanation? Thanks, Max Bob,The very best way to ensure that your rods are straight is to use an epoxy glue. The epoxy will give you all the time you need to just about get the rod perfect before the rod sets up. I use Epon because it's easy to use but Nyatex also will give you all the time you'll need to get the blankstraight. Actually Nyatex will give you even more time then the Eponalthough Epon will give you a couple of hours working time which should be plenty. With Epon you don't have to rebind or heat cure (some guys don't) and the straightening is easier then with Nyatex. I used Urac for the first dozen rods I made and it was pure hell. Since changing to Epon I feel likeI died and went to heaven. As to the straightening of the blank, I use atoaster for heat and a 4 ft rule and my wrist watch for a sense of timingto straighten the blank. It's slightly slower but after ruining a blank witha heat gun I like the toaster much better. Cussin does help. Jim From: Robert Venneri Subject: Straightening techniquesDate: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:46:43 -0800 Hey GuysDoes anybody have any nice Straightening techniques to help withstraightening the blanks after it is sanded. I was a sheet metal mech benching it flat but I am having a hard time getting the blanksstraight. Any help would be appreciated Best RegardsBob V _________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from ajthramer@hotmail.com Fri Mar 15 02:00:09 2002 g2F809821211 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 02:00:09 -0600 Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:00:03 -0800 Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:00:03 GMT Subject: Re: Straightening techniques & colorful language FILETIME=[69CB0D00:01C1CBF7] I scrape the blank and then straighten prior to sanding. First I take out the twists from the butt to the tip, then I mark the butt end of the section with an 'A','B' & 'C' on adjacent flats. I then straighten them from the butt to the tip in order. After that I let the section cool as I am doing the usually other 3 sections. Following the cooling off period(usually the blank but sometimes....)I straighten the blank again to take out any kinks that were reintroduced or simply popped back due to insufficient heat. Done! Sometimes 5 min, sometimes 45 but usually 10 or 20 min will do it. If a section becomes too trying I will put it down and go on to the next. Since withdrawing from society to become a rodmaker i find I use the more colorful invectives in the english language only rarely. At that only a 'bloody damn thing' once in a while.A.J. From: Robert Venneri Subject: Straightening techniquesDate: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:46:43 -0800 Hey GuysDoes anybody have any nice Straightening techniques to help withstraightening the blanks after it is sanded. I was a sheet metal mech benching it flat but I am having a hard time getting the blanksstraight. Any help would be appreciated Best RegardsBob V _________________________________________________________________Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com from ajthramer@hotmail.com Fri Mar 15 02:11:25 2002 g2F8BO821546 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 02:11:24 -0600 Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:11:15 -0800 Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:11:15 GMT Subject: Re: Rod Tubes FILETIME=[FA5F92E0:01C1CBF8] PVC rod tubes? Ah.., even for my admitedly utilitarian proclivities I think that this is going too far! Are we going to see PVC dual ring reel seats (hopefully with a tasteful rope knurl) next? The Cortland people are very nice to deal with, it is easy to set up a rodbuilder account, and they have a low minimum order of only $50. A 7ft 2pc tube with a nice domed aluminum cap and collar is only about $9 or 10 dollars and an 8ft tube is only $10.50. Knock the top off and cut to fit, doesn't even need glue!A.J. From: "William R. Fink" Subject: Rod TubesDate: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:41:42 -0500 To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod practices including tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the manufaturer's unsightly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from caneman@clnk.com Fri Mar 15 02:48:03 2002 g2F8m2822204 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 02:48:02 - (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) , Subject: Re: national gathering Dennis is NOT the water boy. He is a very important part of the Symposium,whether his humility will allow him to say so or not... Aukland for 4 hours were you?????? *S* Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: national gathering Rex,The Bamboo Symposium will be Thru. the 8th thru Sat. the 10th but thereis a bamboo rodmaking class Mon the 5th thru Wed the 7th. Bob Nunley, John Zimny, Ray Gould, Bob Clark, Marty Karstetter, Dave Mosley, Ralph Moon (and me...I'm the water boy:-} are teaching the class so the unofficial bamboo gathering could easily start Mon. the 5th.Check out www.ida.net/users/rmoon/symposium for the completeschedule.See you in Livingston!! Dennis from caneman@clnk.com Fri Mar 15 02:56:47 2002 g2F8ul822386 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 02:56:47 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Slumming???? Only if you have never been to Griz country with Bob and =Billie on the West Fork of Mill Creek!! Details only to those who come =to Livingston in August! *S* Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation Harry, I am sure the Baptist Church of Las Vegas would even put you up for = The symposium in Montana sounds like a good place also. But when =Montana calls meetings are the last things on my mind. I mean give me a =break Ralph lives on the Henry's Fork. When he goes to Montana it is =like slumming. Adam Subject: Re: Was Dimension increases, Now Experimentation A national gathering? Sounds like we should meet where the rest of =the U.S.A does when they want everybody to come and have an easy =destination point. LAS VEGAS! Vegas? Vegas? Gimme a break man! I know why you decided on =Vegas... You don't want me to show. 'fraid we might tie up, huh? (Tie =up is a good suth'n term ...MD can explain it) You know if we have it =in Vegas, the good Rev' won't be able to attend. He'd lose his job. = Tongue pressing firmly against my cheek, and still lobbying for = who come to Livingston in August! *S* Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com ----- Original Message ----- Vigil Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 = PMSubject: Re: Was Dimension = Experimentation Harry, I am sure the Baptist Church of Las = even put you up for the weekend. The symposium in Montana sounds like= also. But when Montana calls meetings are the last things on my mind. = it is like slumming. Adam ----- Original Message ----- Cc: rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu= Sent: Thursday, March 14, = AMSubject: Re: Was Dimension = Now Experimentation A = gathering? Sounds like we should meet where the rest of the U.S.A = when they want everybody to come and have an easy destination = LAS VEGAS! Harry = from caneman@clnk.com Fri Mar 15 03:13:53 2002 g2F9Dq822678 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 03:13:52 -0600 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Rod Tubes Allen,Thanks for posting that... and my apologies to anyone on the list thatis offended by my response, but I just never understood why someone wouldmake a thousand dollar (or, in some cases much, much more) rod and put itina damn piece of plumbing pipe! I pay about 15 each for my rod tubes, whenit's all said and done, shipping and all, and they beat the hell out ofanything you can make out of PVC. Just can't imagine the reaction of one ofmy sports if I say "Oh yeah. Sending your $1400 rod out tomorrow. By theway, forget the aluminum tube, I can save Three Bucks by giving you a pieceof plastic pipe instead!!!" Might as well say, "Hey, your Mercedes is onthe way, but we're putting it in a Volkswagon body instead!" Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Rod Tubes PVC rod tubes? Ah.., even for my admitedly utilitarian proclivities I think that this is going too far! Are we going to see PVC dual ring reel seats(hopefully with a tasteful rope knurl) next? The Cortland people are verynice to deal with, it is easy to set up a rodbuilder account, and they have a low minimum order of only $50. A 7ft 2pc tube with a nice domedaluminumcap and collar is only about $9 or 10 dollars and an 8ft tube is only$10.50. Knock the top off and cut to fit, doesn't even need glue!A.J. From: "William R. Fink" Subject: Rod TubesDate: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:41:42 -0500 To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod practicesincluding tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the manufaturer'sunsightly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from Lazybee45@aol.com Fri Mar 15 04:22:28 2002 g2FAMS823841 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 04:22:28 -0600 Subject: Re: Rod Tubes In a message dated 3/14/02 8:18:10 PM Central Standard Time, fbcwin@3g.quik.com writes: Oh Harry, I agree. BUT which is sturdier? And would a silk purse be out of place on a muddy stream bank? If I want a really nice rod case, Iwill make one from Cherry or Walnut or such and do some nice carving or inlay work on it. But for hauling around in the back of my truck, bouncing on the rack of my bicycle or tramping around in teh woods, a PVC case is my personalchoice! I have an aluminum one for one of my rods too. I even have one cardboard mailing tube for one rod. Adequate for that particular rod! mark visit Wood Art Custom Designs http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html Hand crafted items made to order! from channer@frontier.net Fri Mar 15 06:47:14 2002 g2FClD825723 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 06:47:13 -0600 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 05:47:08 -0700 Subject: Re: Rod Tubes Bob;Who ever said anything about puting someone else's rod in a pvctube???????I put my own rods in pvc because I can usually get what Ineed laying around the job site after the plumbers are done. Alsobecause my own rods live in my work truck and p0vc tubes just blend inwith the rest of the crap. I don't think I could get away with pvc forthe customers, so theirs go in REC tubes, which I most likely pay waytoo much for.john Bob Nunley wrote: Allen,Thanks for posting that... and my apologies to anyone on the list thatis offended by my response, but I just never understood why someonewouldmake a thousand dollar (or, in some cases much, much more) rod and put itina damn piece of plumbing pipe! I pay about 15 each for my rod tubes, whenit's all said and done, shipping and all, and they beat the hell out ofanything you can make out of PVC. Just can't imagine the reaction of oneofmy sports if I say "Oh yeah. Sending your $1400 rod out tomorrow. Bytheway, forget the aluminum tube, I can save Three Bucks by giving you apieceof plastic pipe instead!!!" Might as well say, "Hey, your Mercedes is onthe way, but we're putting it in a Volkswagon body instead!" Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message -----From: "Allen Thramer" Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 2:11 AMSubject: Re: Rod Tubes PVC rod tubes? Ah.., even for my admitedly utilitarian proclivities I think that this is going too far! Are we going to see PVC dual ring reel seats(hopefully with a tasteful rope knurl) next? The Cortland people are verynice to deal with, it is easy to set up a rodbuilder account, and they have a low minimum order of only $50. A 7ft 2pc tube with a nice domedaluminumcap and collar is only about $9 or 10 dollars and an 8ft tube is only$10.50. Knock the top off and cut to fit, doesn't even need glue!A.J. From: "William R. Fink" Subject: Rod TubesDate: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:41:42 -0500 To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod practicesincluding tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the manufaturer'sunsightly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from jteft@frontiernet.net Fri Mar 15 07:29:08 2002 g2FDT7826495 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 07:29:07 -0600 0000 sender ) Subject: Re: Straightening techniques I place my sections into the opened planning form and after making sure theyare setting straight place socks full of bb shot on them for 24 hours. ThenI treat the final twicking with a stream of hot air and expletives. The wifegoes up to the third floor and gets out the ear plugs and locks the doors.Jim T----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Straightening techniques In my experience, this is an integral part of rodmaking, without which proper rods cannot be made. Don't reserve it for just straightening duties, as you're selling yourself short. Learning to effortlessly vituperate with a lengthy, invective stream of expletives adds to the ebb and flow of rodmaking, bringing with it a new dimensional experience. I'm out in the country, and yet each of the neighbors is well versed in the proper vocabulary for rodmaking. What a service I've performed M-D From: "Bob Maulucci" Brian:The cussing is the real key. Glad you mentioned that on the list.Bob I have a flat work table that I put the blank on and roll it, looking at the light coming under the blank. When I find a high spot I make an 'X' on the apex with a pencil or white china marker. I mark all the high spots. Then I heat the blank over a heat gun and straighten it by gently bending ituntil it is straight. I sight along the blank with good light and a darkbackground from each end to see how I'm doing. I cuss much and mightily. I burn my fingers and cuss with greater enthusiasm. My wife yells at me that I'm causing permanent harm to the children's psyche. I mumble that theyshould skip the intermediary steps and try to straighten this damn blank if she wants to see psyche damage. Then I go back to work.Marking. Heating. Straightening. Sighting. Cussing. Mumbling. Lots of mumbling... Best Fishes, Brian from aport@si.rr.com Fri Mar 15 07:41:25 2002 g2FDfP826858 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 07:41:25 -0600 Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:41:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Rod Tubes Guys,What's in those cordura tubes that look so nice? I'll betdollars- todoughnuts they're structurally PVC! Who'd waste Al inside thatcovering?Art from Dennishigham@cs.com Fri Mar 15 07:55:11 2002 g2FDtA827322 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 07:55:10 - Subject: Re: national gathering Bob, Not me:-} I'm on vacation.Last week I split out two rods, node spaced, trimmed to length and did about 100 nodes and popped them in the oven. Flipped end for end half way thru and pulled them out to find the middle of each section a beautiful milk choclate brown. Unfortunately they were blonde rods....now they're a bunch of burned up kindling waiting for the next fire. Bad time for my oven strip heaters to go bad. I think I may have invented some new cuss words, good thing no one else was home...I did find the dog hiding under the bed though :-} Dennis from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Fri Mar 15 08:02:16 2002 g2FE2F827569 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:02:15 -0600 Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:02:14 -0600 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Rod Tubes Thread-Topic: Rod TubesThread-Index: AcHMGwAdEnOv/zgDEda4MwBglOouXwADzMpA FILETIME=[02886330:01C1CC2A] g2FE2F827570 It's not a matter of being offended, Bob, but once you've had a rod or twostolen, you get to thinking whether it makes sense to travel with your specialrod in the equivalent of a "steal me" sign or a protective but ugly piece ofsewer. Not a matter of suggesting you sell the rods in such things. But thebetter the rod, the more sense the sewer makes in certainconditions.....Barry -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Rod Tubes Allen,Thanks for posting that... and my apologies to anyone on the list thatis offended by my response, but I just never understood why someone wouldmake a thousand dollar (or, in some cases much, much more) rod and put itina damn piece of plumbing pipe! I pay about 15 each for my rod tubes, whenit's all said and done, shipping and all, and they beat the hell out ofanything you can make out of PVC. Just can't imagine the reaction of one ofmy sports if I say "Oh yeah. Sending your $1400 rod out tomorrow. By theway, forget the aluminum tube, I can save Three Bucks by giving you a pieceof plastic pipe instead!!!" Might as well say, "Hey, your Mercedes is onthe way, but we're putting it in a Volkswagon body instead!" Later,Bob R.L. Nunley, RodmakerCustom Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.caneflyrod.com- ---- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Rod Tubes PVC rod tubes? Ah.., even for my admitedly utilitarian proclivities I think that this is going too far! Are we going to see PVC dual ring reel seats(hopefully with a tasteful rope knurl) next? The Cortland people are verynice to deal with, it is easy to set up a rodbuilder account, and they have a low minimum order of only $50. A 7ft 2pc tube with a nice domedaluminumcap and collar is only about $9 or 10 dollars and an 8ft tube is only$10.50. Knock the top off and cut to fit, doesn't even need glue!A.J. From: "William R. Fink" Subject: Rod TubesDate: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:41:42 -0500 To The ListNothing could get ever me to deviate from traditional rod practicesincluding tubes and cases.By-the-way, does anyone have a means of removing the manufaturer'sunsightly marking from my PVC tomato stakes?Thanks. Bill _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. from Lazybee45@aol.com Fri Mar 15 08:07:47 2002 g2FE7k827928 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:07:46 -0600 Subject: Re: Rod Tubes In a message dated 3/15/02 3:22:21 AM Central Standard Time,caneman@clnk.com writes: Yer' correct of course Bob. Which is why I am experimenting with making fancy rod cases (hex sided, cherry, walnut and other woods) 'cause theylook cool! and they are extraordinarily pretty. But a "presentation case" is a different matter from something for knocking around in your truck or something. Aluminum tubes are admittedly sturdy and relatively cheap. I still like PVC for my rods. Why? because if I scarf it up (and I will!) I won't cry about it! (baby that I am!) mark visit Wood Art Custom Designs http://hometown.aol.com/lazybee45/myhomepage/business.html Hand crafted items made to order! from rextutor@yahoo.com Fri Mar 15 08:08:47 2002 g2FE8k828431 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:08:46 -0600 15 Mar 2002 06:08:44 PST Subject: Re: Straightening techniques When I hear guy describe their straightening technicsI always hear some time goes by. I usually put the rodto cool and keep coming back to it . I think time thuscomplete cooling, in between attempts adds toaccuracy. Sometimes I use my hands, sometimes I use ascrew type drill press vice. My dogs cry and whine if I cuss , as if they had apossum up or tree or something, so I stoically acceptthe frustration instead of causing the noise from thenetherworld. --- Robert S Williams wrote: No wonder I have more trouble than moststraightening my sections...I can'twait to go to the shop tonight and scare theneighbors! ----- Original Message -----From: "channer" Cc: "rodmakers" Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:34 PMSubject: Re: Straightening techniques Yup, some jobs require lots of profanity, like concrete and straightening blanks!john "Brian D. Creek" wrote: I have a flat work table that I put the blank on and roll it, looking atthe light coming under the blank. When I find a high spot I make an 'X' onthe apex with a pencil or white china marker. I mark all the high spots.Then I heat the blank over a heat gun and straighten it by gently bending it until it is straight. I sight along the blank with good light and adark background from each end to see how I'm doing. I cuss much andmightily. I burn my fingers and cuss with greater enthusiasm. My wife yells at methat I'm causing permanent harm to the children's psyche. I mumble that they should skip the intermediary steps and try to straighten this damn blankif she wants to see psyche damage. Then I go back to work. Marking. Heating. Straightening. Sighting. Cussing. Mumbling. Lotsof mumbling... Best Fishes, Brian----- Original Message -----From: "Robert Venneri" Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 11:46 PMSubject: Straightening techniques Hey GuysDoes anybody have any nice Straightening techniques to help with straightening the blanks after it is sanded. I was a sheet metal mech warped sheet of metaland benching it flat but I am having a hard time getting the blanks straight. Any help would be appreciated Best RegardsBob V __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coveragehttp://sports.yahoo.com/ from tausfeld@frontiernet.net Fri Mar 15 08:15:27 2002 g2FEFQ829734 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:15:26 -0600 0000 sender )