from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jul 1 09:44:45 1995 Subject: "No Name" Leonard Taper Here is the taper on the "No Name" Leonard It is and 8' and weighs in at 3 1/8 oz is a 5wt and the tip is 3/4 in short. Center Diameter-------------------------------------------- 0 .056 (measured just before tip) 5 .076 10 .092 15 .118 20 .132 25 .142 30 .160 35 .178 40 .200 45 .207 50 .210 55 .224 60 .242 65 .262 70 .278 75 .257 80 .312 85 .307 Handle The .257 measurement at 75 in is correct and was double checked several times. This rod has been rewrapped and finished.There wass still two original wraps on this rod. One at the buttand the other at the butt section ferrule. This wrap goes all theway up the ferrule. Who says you need to Blue the ferrules - justwrap in thread. The original thread appears to be Black and Whitejaspar. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jul 3 14:49:44 1995 Subject: Re: Planing form question Jerry asks: I'm currently building my planing forms, and after about 30 hours ofwork, it's almost complete. But I do have one concern. When I tighten the bolts down to bring the two sides together, thebolts are really difficult to turn. Is this normal? -Jerry Jerry, First, I'm impressed that you are almost finished after only 30 hours. It took me that long just to drill and tap the holes, never mind filing and honing them flat and cutting the grooves. About the tight bolts: I'd be concerned. When I was at that stage I found that the tightness was due to my drill bit drifting a little so that the 3/8" hole through the two pieces didn't line up perfectly. This means that as you tighten it the bolt acts like a cam and will lift one side up with respect to the other side of the form. The amount will differ depending on how far apart the two halves are, so each time you set a different taper you'll have a different amount of lift. I ended up making some of the holes a little oversized by reaming out the side that the bolt was catching on, so there'd be no seizing up. I'd like Wayne's opinion on this. I followed his book, and a piece in The Planing Form by someone whose name I've forgotten. Whoever it was, he made his forms 6' long, figuring as long as he had the steel he might as well use it. How'd you cut your grooves? John Carter (carte004@maroon.tc.umn.edu) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jul 6 16:44:52 1995 Subject: Two sets of guides? Hello Listmembers,I have finished my second bamboo rod, and I amdefinitely addicted. I have gotten a couple ofbooks on the subject, and searched out andlooked at all the cane rods I hear about to seeand compare different makers. I ran acrossan unusual rod last week. I couldn't make out themanufacturer, it looked like it was fairly old, butwhat had me curious was that the tip sectionhad a set of snake guides on each side of the tipsection, 180 degrees apart. I surmised that youwere supposed to fish it on alternate sides toeven out the wear (?), but the tip top was anormal conventional tip top. How can youalternate sides if the tip top is installed forone side? Are you supposed to pull it off andreinstall it for the other side if the tip sectiontakes a set on one side? Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jul 7 07:08:17 1995 Subject: Re: Two sets of guides? The double guides was quite common on boat rods where heavy lifting was involved but I've never seen it on a fly rod. On the boat rods the tiptip was usually solid brass with holes drilled from both sides through to a common center. reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jul 7 13:57:51 1995 Subject: Smart Rodmaking Advice -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- I do hope everyone has read the current issue of the Planing Form. Ibelieve the article by Jeff Wagner, p. 6&7 should be required reading we are only dealing with fishing rods here, not the space shuttle.Almost without exception all of the "worshipped" rodmakers of the pastbuilt fine casting tools. WhileThey did debate the finer aspects offishing rod design, hell a whole bunch of them worked in 64ths not inthe thousands. More than most of us will ever realize, or want tobelieve. Actually IMHO, most of you don't really want to accept this asfact and would rather believe otherwise. It is a alot of fun to sit around and shoot the bull about rods share Some of the most well liked tapers of a past master rodbuilder werescaled down from a heavy Salmon rod taper, no computer just experiencein where to move the drops and how much wood to start with. Maybe it isall a little to easy for people today, the old masters paid there dues.Jim Payne is probably shaking his head and having a chuckle over allof this.Best Regards to All Jed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jul 7 14:17:58 1995 Subject: Orvis superstar cane rod. Does anyone know what a 9' 9 wt (GAF line rating) Orvis Superstarimpregnated cane rod would be worth? The rod in question has two tipsand a detachable fighting butt. It looks like it's never been used. -- Ed Kelly email - Ed.Kelly@mail.hcsc.com -or- ed.kelly@mail.hcsc.com -or- ed@ada1.ssd.csd.harris.com ------------------- Phone (305) 973- 5340=========================================================================== from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jul 7 14:46:19 1995 Subject: Re: Orvis superstar cane rod. Not too popular a weight, maybe 350 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jul 8 09:11:49 1995 Subject: Re: Smart Rodmaking Advice Jed Dempsey wrote: I do hope everyone has read the current issue of the Planing Form. Ibelieve the article by Jeff Wagner, p. 6&7 should be required reading Haven't gotten my copy yet. Looking forward to reading this. Some of the most well liked tapers of a past master rodbuilder werescaled down from a heavy Salmon rod taper, no computer just experiencein where to move the drops and how much wood to start with. What you don't mention is that most of the rodbuilders of yore hadbevelers. This permitted them to generate an infinite number of tapers from onemetal template; experimentation was simple, and reproduciblity was a given.Move the multiplier 1/64, move the template forward one notch, and you had a completely different rod which would be recorded according to the beveler settings. Maybe it isall a little to easy for people today, I think it was a lot easier for the "old masters" who had the technological edge. the old masters paid there dues. And their employees. It took a half-dozen people to generate one Payne, Leonard or F.E. Thomas. Jim Payne is probably shaking his head and having a chuckle over allof this. I think he would be thankful for all the work his father put in to develop the beveler, the tapers, the binders, the trained employees, etc. He would be glad that he had Oram to develop his kiln-tempering of cane andHalstead to design and build his reelseats. Actually, Jim Payne may have been a rodmaker who never "made" a rod. Hedid, however, know what he (read "his customers") wanted in a rod; which isthe most important part. Best Regards to All Jed And warm regards to Jed, with whom, appearances aside, I am not incomplete disagreement. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jul 10 17:46:14 1995 Subject: Re: Smart Rodmaking Advice I hate to get in the middle of these sort of discussions. Buthaving the weekend to think about it and Reed's 2 cents andhaving read Jeff's article more than once, plus now finishinga nice glass of wine - I do believe that a lot of points inJeff's article are getting blown out of proportion. The point is rodmakers should not take themselvesseriously but they do need to take their art or is it craftseriously. The "old" masters did take the art seriously. The argument over how people derive their tapers - such asGarrison - is not about the "errors" in their system butthe fact that they did have a system that allowed them toget "satisfactory" or even "good" results. Each person needsto have "their system" that they know (sounds familiar Wayne?)and can adapt and modify to give them a given result. So wefind that there is a bit of Kentucky Windage in Garrison's system- so what. No body is perfect. Now what is the alternative(s)that was Jeff's point. One last thing - the accuracy of the craftsmanship insome of those rod's: I think that they did planed to a 1/1000 th,if you don't think so, you will have lousey glue joints and thegood rods are close to perfect because they took their craft seriously. So we are left with trying to make something closeto perfect as we can with imperfect pieces from the cane to themath!! I know many rodmakers who readily admit they have nevermade a perfect rod and I know a world class concert pianist whosays he has never given a perfect concert. sooooo.... Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jul 11 17:19:27 1995 Subject: Re: Smart Rodmaking Advice Chris, Jeff and I seem to get caught up in this discussion every timewe chat or get together, he only lives 8 miles away. IMHO -- the goal in using a computer to 'design' a rod is *not* to design the 'ulitmate' or 'perfect' rod... the computer and the programs that people use to assist in the design is nothing more than a tool... it *may* help them understand and/or streamlinethe efforts needed to design a rod, but then again if they do notunderstand the physics of the rod then it may not... angles borders on lunacy... they seem to gravitate toward mechanical gadgets and/or 'immediate' results, too each his own... after alldont we build rods because we enjoy it? I hate to get in the middle of these sort of discussions. Buthaving the weekend to think about it and Reed's 2 cents andhaving read Jeff's article more than once, plus now finishinga nice glass of wine - I do believe that a lot of points inJeff's article are getting blown out of proportion. The point is rodmakers should not take themselvesseriously but they do need to take their art or is it craftseriously. The "old" masters did take the art seriously. The argument over how people derive their tapers - such asGarrison - is not about the "errors" in their system butthe fact that they did have a system that allowed them toget "satisfactory" or even "good" results. Each person needsto have "their system" that they know (sounds familiar Wayne?)and can adapt and modify to give them a given result. So wefind that there is a bit of Kentucky Windage in Garrison's system- so what. No body is perfect. Now what is the alternative(s)that was Jeff's point. One last thing - the accuracy of the craftsmanship insome of those rod's: I think that they did planed to a 1/1000 th,if you don't think so, you will have lousey glue joints and thegood rods are close to perfect because they took their craft seriously. So we are left with trying to make something closeto perfect as we can with imperfect pieces from the cane to themath!! I know many rodmakers who readily admit they have nevermade a perfect rod and I know a world class concert pianist whosays he has never given a perfect concert. sooooo.... Chris Dane Johnsone-mail: dane@acm.orgCompuserve 75470,2204 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jul 12 02:52:33 1995 Subject: Re: Rod Performance - casting style reed curry wrote:I think he really has something here. I wonder if more people aren'tturning to cane because, when they try a cane rod, they are forcing thecast and getting poor results. I really enjoyed watching Dan Noyes of RECcasting; he would hold 70' of line in the air with no (visible) effort andlittle movement of the elbow, it was apparent that, as he (humbly) said,"Its a matter of timing.". I recently fished for a week with a twohanded salmon fly rod of cane(Sharpe spliced 14' #10-11). People thought I was nuts with the heavy rodin my hands, and I have to admit: I did train my arms before I wentfishing. In the team all of us used two-handed rods and I was tempted to try theother modern gear as well. My conclusion was that the casting itself withthe graphite rods did not feel any lighter or easier than with the cane, Ihad to do the same movements with the arms and had no real gain in ordertodeliver the fly on the water. With two-handed rods you use the rod as abalance also when shooting line. The only difference I noticed was theweight reduction keeping the rod in my hands, but the difference was notall that remarkable. Viggo, an experienced flyfisher on the team with an extraordinary way ofhandling his not-so-fast graphite Orvis 15 footer, wanted to try my rod.Heimmediately found the rhythme of the rod and made a very long cast, muchlonger than I normally do! He was amazed (as we all were) to shoot thelineas long as with his own rod and kept fishing with it for a while, but hefound it to be a little heavy. But not too heavy since he asked me to findhim a similar one. As reed says, most people use too much power when casting a cane rod. Itisessential to let the rod work for you. With two-handed rods, it issurprising how little effort which is necessary to perform a cast. The leftarm on the butt does the real job loading the rod while the right handholds it steadily on the handle in almost the same position during theentire cast. All casts mentioned here were over-head casts. Since the conditions weregood we did not have to spey-cast. --Terje Tveras, Univ. of Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jul 12 08:29:02 1995 Subject: Re: Starting help Looks like the LISTPROC kick out another message... Sorry if this comes through twice...better safe than sorry!!! :-) Mike Biondo =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= from tveras@edb.uib.no Wed Jul 12 02:52:29 1995Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 09:52:12 +0200 From: tveras@edb.uib.no (Terje Tveras)Subject: Re: Starting help I have found one FAQ from USA, but I wonder if there is any European(or best : Norwegian) rodbuilders out there to tell me where I canfind litterature, materials etc. on this side of the dam ? Ivar,we are just a few rollcast apart, I work at Hoyteknologisenteret. I will beable to provide you with info on the subject. --Terje Tveras, Univ. of Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jul 19 10:40:29 1995 Subject: RE: Hello out there... You are right, this list has been way too quiet, so Ithought I'd just throw in a few musings and observations. I'm in the middle of rough planing the strips for my thirdcane rod. My father test casted the second cane rod Imade, and decided the rods I make are good enoughto fish with and put in a request. Since we are goingon a fishing trip to the Sierra Mtns.(Calif.) on August5th, I don't have much time, But I think I can finish it. After reading in Wayne Cattanach's book about heatingand pressing nodes in a vise, I gave that a try, and it'sdefinitely the way to go. The strips lay in the planing forma lot straighter. I don't know if doing this has anything todo with it, but lifts and chipping at the nodes seems to beless of a problem. I tried an experiment on heat treating the culm on the secondrod I made. I used a heat gun and heated the inside (the culmwas split in half length wise first) until the pith was lightlyscorched (sort of had a salt and pepper appearance),and then heated the outside until the enamel turned a lightbrown. The resiliency and resistance to taking a set of theresulting strips seemed very good, but at this point I don'thave much experience with heat treating, so I don't knowif this method is any better than others. It does save me fromhaving to get or make an oven though. I also found an easier way to split the culm. I first split it intoquarters the conventional way with a cleaver, but then I usea pair of 14 inch end nippers to split strips off of the quarterstrips. End nippers are the type of cutter that cuts perpendicularto the axis of the handles. I mark off the width of the smaller stripI want on the nodes using a pair of dividers, then I use the endnippers on the marks, making sure I am going straight throughthe nodes, from outside straight to center, not at an angle. withthe nodes cut, it's a simple matter of pulling the strip until itseparates from the quarter strip. This method is quick andeasily controllable. I also find I am spending less time planingsince the strips I start out with are closer to the final size tobegin with. If anybody else has any other tips they would like to share, I surewould like to hear about them. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jul 19 18:59:01 1995 Subject: Grayling - update Michael Silence can be golden - fishing must be good!! At least in Virginia life is good after the floods. One of the demo's we saw was using the Micro-Mesh cushionedAbrasiveswhich were "cloths" with grits of 1500 - 12000 for finishing andpolishing theserface prior to finishing. Source was through the Sanding Catelog. Iorderedand it was back-ordered. I got a call today and said they were cancellingtheorder since the company has closed up shop and the owner died!!. Second. I've made some splicing jigs for nodeless according to theGarrison book and they work fine. Thirdly. I got a simplfied jig for hollow fluting that also works fine Lastly for Darryl. Try Wayne" suggestion of a bamboo froe instead ofa"cleaver". They work great. I don't free hand split but use a method thatstarts the split and push the culm thru. Easy to do and safe. If want details - letme know. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jul 20 08:54:24 1995 Subject: Splitting Bamboo I don't free hand split but use a method that startsthe split and push the culm thru. Easy to do and safe.If want details - let me know. Chris Yes please. I am always willing to learn about better waysto do things. Darryl from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jul 24 08:56:24 1995 Subject: Bamboo Froe After looking through all the woodworking catalogs (even theones that specialize in Japanese tools) I cannot find anythingcalled a bamboo froe. Where do I find this tool? Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jul 25 07:37:27 1995 Subject: Bamboo froe - splitting - Brook Due to fishing (I now have a reputation to maintain)and a fatal harddrive crash we've been away. landed a 20" brown and several decent brookies saturday afternoon -evening. 3/16 flat stock about a foot long and sharpen the first 2" on one end.Initiate the split with the sharp end and then flip to the blunt side forthe splitting - it is safer then using the sharp edge.The problem that I have heard of the most is that some folks trysplitting of 1/4 strips off the edge of larger strips. Because of theimbalance of the size of the pieces the split is forced off to the side andyou end up with tapered splinters. The splitting needs to halve the pieces(6to 12 and then 12 to 24) this way there is an equal amount of bamboo oneachside of the splitting blade.As Chris mentioned - in Arkansas we discovered that by mounting thefroein a solid vise a person could use there body to control the split from'walking' and it doesn't take that much longer. In a contest one person wasable to glean 32 usable strips from a upper section of a 2" diameter culm.Because of the hard drive crash I have lost some questions that Ihadn't answered yet - So if anyone who has sent e-mail to me and hasn'tgot aresponse please resend and I will try to respond in a timely manner.In planning ahead - there is talk of having a second 'Trout Bum BBQ' -so if anyone has ideas on how we can improve things let us know (we hopetoadd more to the 'sporting flies' course. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jul 25 07:57:14 1995 Subject: Book address? Hi Wayne, Have been having a tough time finding your book, "Handcraftingbamboo fly rods" through my favorite (they give me a discount) book store.Do you have publisher's address/ordering info that I could pass on tothem? Thanks! I'm a real 'newbie' whose been lurking on the rod buildinglistserv long enough - time to get to it! Thanks tedg@oz.plymouth.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jul 26 17:54:20 1995 Subject: BBQ In planning ahead - there is talk of having a second 'Trout Bum BBQ' -so if anyone has ideas on how we can improve things let us know (wehope toadd more to the 'sporting flies' course. Wayne I regret that I only have a year to practice for the 'sporting flies'. BTW, I have received many favorable comments on my Trout Bum BBQ Tshirt. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jul 27 08:11:19 1995 Subject: Re: BBQ In planning ahead - there is talk of having a second 'Trout Bum BBQ' -so if anyone has ideas on how we can improve things let us know (wehope toadd more to the 'sporting flies' course. Wayne Any idea yet when you are planning 'Trout Bum BBQ - Deux'???? Never too early to start lobbying the homefront... :-) Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jul 27 10:14:23 1995 Subject: BBQ Certain members of the 'Trout Bum BBQ' entertainment committee arehaving a strategy meeting set for Aug 11 in Grayrock. Any members of thelistare invited to join us as the committee researches such topics as - newplaces to fish - a sampling of adult beverages - and new toppings for thepotato logs at Spike's.This will be one of many meeting that will be required before thesecondBBQ. This is qrueling work and many personal sacrifices must be made(lawnmowing - carrying out the trash - and doing windows). But with TherapyI'massured that one day we may be normal again. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jul 27 20:18:16 1995 Subject: Titebond II I went ahead and put together an 8' 0" 5 wt 2 piece usingTitebond II to test it out. I haven't been able to use it fishingyet, but it seems to be doing the job it'd supposed to be doing. I haven't noticed any difference to the two other rodsI made using URAC 185 as far as action is concerned,the first rod I made was the same 8 ft. 5 wt., and the actionis different, but the Titebond rod seems to be faster than theURAC 185 glued rod. I am more inclined to blame the bamboo I guess my conclusions would be that Titebond II glue is okay performed side by side in actual fishing in a couple of weekssince I'm going to be spending a week in the California Sierrasbeginning of August. Darryl Hayashida