from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 1 17:09:01 1996 Subject: Bamboo & Kids A while back the question was asked why fish bamboo. To some of usthereis no other material that preforms for the fishing style that I do here inMichigan. But why I make bamboo fly rods is entirely different and believeitor not it has little to do with money or how well know you can become. Lyndi Cattanach Maker7' 6" #4 1-96-1 As most of you may know I have made each of our kids a bamboofly rod. And in the case of our daughter's, Lyndi, it ended uptinted purple. Matt is now making fly rods of his own and in waysout doing dad. Last year at the Somerset show he convinced JoanWulff that she should try casting one of the rods that he had made.I showed up at the casting pond just in time to see the two of themside by side as Joan laid out a cast with his rod. A special moment Meanwhile back in the basement, our second child, not to beout done by her older brother is now planing and scraping awayunder dad's watchful guidance. Her plan is to have a rod completed byJjanuary so that she can flaunt it in front of Uncle Phil(Castleman) and try to hit him up for an order in true trout bumfashion.I've read that fathers influence their daughters in becomingwomen. At least we are spending quality time together - thosespecial times when we can talk and share dreams. But I somehowthink that the subjects should include boys and career ideas andnot hatch cycles and how a rod casts a flyline.My good friend Sam and I have talked about what type of fellowshe might end up with. The conservations have made for a few livelyevenings at the 'clubhouse'. Imagine how deflating it would be inasking her for a date to have her quiz - "you don't fish plastic doyou?" or "you can tie an extended body parachute can't you?" Samhas accused me of deceatfully planning this for years. But that'snot the case. Although I did paint a Stanley hand plane purple thispast weekend.Perhaps I'm guilty of trying to live out my dreams through thekids and they wanting acceptance go along with it. But I wouldprefer to believe that dad is living out his own dreams andthat they like hanging around. Because even though dad, at times,does some crazy things he goes to interesting places and meets andknows really neat people. Perhaps Lyndi sums it up best - "Cool". from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 1 18:37:18 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo & Kids Wayne,I have another good reason to introduce kids to fishing (in all its manifestations); they make great companions. My son Daniel, just turned13, has been tying flies since he was nine, winds the intermediates on oldrods (I have too much sense to attempt it), lasts through 6 hours of ice-fishing, and casts a pretty good fly. But I'll always remember the day two yearsago when he was tired and discouraged because he was too short to wadewithin casting distance of some rising fish. It was sunny and warm; we sought a shady spot, put our feet in the water and fell asleep to the sounds of the stream. It doesn't get better than that.Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 2 09:10:02 1996 Subject: Two questions on nodeless rods The discussion of nodeless rods has raised a couple questionsin my mind.1. How long is the spliced section? In Garrison's book, whenhe splices strips in the butt section, they are about 5 incheslong (5 inches of taper overlapping) as I recall. It seems like this might be excessive for a whole rod; if you have15 inch sections between nodes, you would only gain 10 inchesper strip. Of course, it would depend on the width of the strips being spliced, so I guess the question is, what is the proper angle for the splicing taper?2. When it comes time for glue-up, do you stagger the splicesaround the rod circumference like you do nodes, or is it more haphazard?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 2 18:40:46 1996 Subject: Re: Two questions on nodeless rods Frank I haven't figured out the angle of the splice. I was looking atit have a slope of 1:10 - 1:12. This prob defaults to an angle of approx20 degrees. The length of the splice cut depends on the width of the strip.Normally you can add up the length of the sections and subtract thenumberof splices times 4" to get the approx glued up strip. You really only "lose"half of the length of the splice area from a strip. Second. There is no real need to stagger the splices. What you doneed to do is make 3 strips with left hand splices and 3 strips with right hand splices and alternate the strips when you glue them up. You will geta "sawtooth" pattern from this. I see no harm if you want to stagger thesplices - but I have gotten acceptable results without doing so. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 3 09:46:33 1996 Subject: Re: Two questions on nodeless rods On Tue, 2 Jan 1996, Frank Stetzer wrote: The discussion of nodeless rods has raised a couple questionsin my mind.1. How long is the spliced section? In Garrison's book, whenhe splices strips in the butt section, they are about 5 incheslong (5 inches of taper overlapping) as I recall. It seems like this might be excessive for a whole rod; if you have15 inch sections between nodes, you would only gain 10 inchesper strip. Of course, it would depend on the width of the strips being spliced, so I guess the question is, what is the proper angle for the splicing taper?2. When it comes time for glue-up, do you stagger the splicesaround the rod circumference like you do nodes, or is it more haphazard?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. If you use the plans in the Garrison book, the splice angle is 4 deg.The dimensions he uses are rise of 13/16" and run of 5 13/16". This gives a splice of about 5 1/2" or so for a strip which is 1/4" wide.I'm pretty sure this is right. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 3 10:03:23 1996 Subject: Archives/Administrivia Hello Rodmakers!!! New Year's Day, I was talking with fellow St. Louis Rodmaker/Listmember,Scott Allred. He mentioned the fact that it was about one year ago thatthe RODMAKERS list was formed. Sure enough, it was right at the end ofDecember, 1994 that the list was put into service as a simple mailalias. Looks like we had our First Year Birthday!!! The list has grown quite a bit since then. Last I checked, we're up to150 listmembers strong. Also the year saw us move to a real LISTSERV.A much needed enhancement from the simple, alias mail redirection westarted with. A lot of great information has flowed through this list in the pastyear. I learned a lot thanks to the generosity of other listmembersso willing to share their knowledge. I have tried to archive every message that has come through the list. However, I think I screwed up. Recently, in attempts to organize thosearchives I discovered some gaping holes in what I thought was a completerecord. If anyone out there has also been keeping a copy of messagesthat has come across the list, I would be very grateful if you couldfill in the holes. Specifically, I am missing the months of 4/95, 5/95,and 6/95. Well folks, Happy Birthday to us!!! I sure wish I could take thecredit for this great list, but the truth of the matter is that it'sall you folks that deserve the credit. Thanks to one, and all... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 3 13:24:08 1996 Subject: Re: Archives/Administrivia Mike,Many thanks from one of the 150 for your work in setting up RODMAKERS. Thanks also to the rest of you for advice, quotes, and questions. Lots of my questions have been answered without my even having to ask them. Speaking of questions, here's a bizarre one for you. In building my final planing form (out of cold-rolled steel) I ended up making the groove too deep on one side. I'd already invested so much time and sweat and curses and tears that I wasn't about to start over, so I found a machinist who milled off enough of that side so I could redo it. (The "it" is the two halves of the form, bolted together.) The milling process put a set in the form, though! It's 6' long and with the bowed side up it's about 0.5" off the table at the mid-point. I've put it under considerable tension and it doesn't bend back. Is it going to be useable with this wow in it? Any John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 3 15:26:19 1996 Subject: Re: Archives/Administrivia Hello Rodmakers!!! New Year's Day, I was talking with fellow St. LouisRodmaker/Listmember,Scott Allred. He mentioned the fact that it was about one year ago thatthe RODMAKERS list was formed. Sure enough, it was right at the end ofDecember, 1994 that the list was put into service as a simple mailalias. Looks like we had our First Year Birthday!!! Well happy birthday to us! Congradulations, Mike, on putting this listtogether. It is a fine example of what the Internet can be. We now have aliving, breathing, organ of knowledge transferrence for rodbuilders of allskills to enjoy. Well done!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 3 17:35:57 1996 Subject: Re: Archives/Administrivia Mike -Congradulations on an excellent year as the Listguy - your efforts areappreciated as are those of the other list members. It has been great funandhopefully all have benefited. John -a slight twist in your set of forms shouldn't be a problem. Even thedissimilarity in the depth of the V shouldn't hurt as long as you can pinchthe forms together tight enough to make the taper dimensions that youwant.The best thing is to put the forms together and measure the station depthsand then measure the 1" increments inbetween to check uniformity ofslopestation to station. If you have further concerns post back. Oh by the way Mike -I'm still concerned about your ceiling during the summer thunderstormseason - perhaps you could convince your wife to buy a #1 iron for on the cocktailtable. Best Wishes Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 3 17:48:39 1996 Subject: Bowed Form John Take heart - Read Garrison - a workman used one of his newfinal forms to pry out a rock - he used that form for many yearswith no ill effects. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 3 18:08:29 1996 Subject: Glues for splices To All: Over the holidays I did a series of tests on 3 glues I had availto see which one would suit my needs for making splices. I had a numberof scrap sections that I attempted splices upon. I used three 1" springclamps per splice. I let all glued up splices sit overnight (min of 18 hours). I then did terrible things to each splice. I flexed each stripfirst vertically and then laterally. After that I applied heat and didthe same. I know this is sadistic but ... it will save me headaches latter. The results were as follows: PVA (Titebond-II) has a very short set on time prior to clampingand makes an excellent bond. I could only break it by applying moderateheat. Reactive Polyurethane (Excel and Gorrila - I used Borden's version) This glue has a short working time (less than 5 min). It did not appear to penetrate the cane. The joint can be broken easily and the jointis very smooth. The best result can be obtained from moistening thespliceprior to application of glue. However, I could not get a permanent gluedup joint. Urea Formaldehyde. I used Borden's powder version with wettingagent(see Zimny's article in planing form). At first I had problems. Goodresultscan be had if you 1. mix glue throughly for min of 5 minutes. and 2. Use aset on time prior to clamping of at least 10 minutes with 20 minutesbeingdesirable. Doing that I achieved a joint I could not break mechanically orwith heat. Comments? Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 3 18:33:31 1996 Subject: Bill Ballan Special Ballan - Bill in his great wisdom and odd sense of humor has had severalrodmakers make him a 7' 6" #3 & #5 3 - piece rod with a single butt section.Time will tell the out come of the taper - but consider this - if each lineweight has 2 tips there are 24 pieces needed. Now I normally just split 24pieces from the upper half of the culm to make the tips but faced with thefact of no spares in case of a screw up I chose instead to split for 32pieces - I was able to get 30.This weekend I was able to get 4 of the needed 7 sections glued - andaswith other projects I'm going to have to get with it if I intend on havingthe rod finished by the end of the month when I see Bill at the Somersetshow. When finished I will share the taper once I am able to test cast therod(s). If this works my next attempt will be to make a 6' 3" 3 - piece #2 on one butt section. If there is interest perhaps we can make it a listgroup project. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 3 19:04:34 1996 Subject: Hex to Quad Listmates,In discussing tapers for quad rods recently, it was suggested that a hex taper could be adapted with a simple scaling factor. I wondered aboutthat, because if that were true then the difference between the two approaches would be only the area of cane... then why do makers who do both quad and hex have different templates for their bevelers?I found something of interest in chapter 1 of McClane's "The Practical Flyfisherman"; my reading of page 14 is that the "rigidity depends on the moment of inertia of the cross-section" and that for a given area a quad will have a greater cross-section (of circumscribing circle) hence greater rigidity. Am I mis- interpreting this? If not, tapers for quads must be different than for hex. Reed P.S. - Mike B. , thanks for the great list work. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 3 19:42:02 1996 Subject: RE: Glues for splices Reactive Polyurethane (Excel and Gorrila - I used Borden's version)This glue has a short working time (less than 5 min). It did notappear to penetrate the cane. The joint can be broken easily and the jointis very smooth. The best result can be obtained from moistening thespliceprior to application of glue. However, I could not get a permanent gluedup joint. This doesn't sound anything like the Excel I used. Working time was20 minutes, and setup time was 4 to 12 hours. I unwrapped a sectionafter 2 hours and had it come apart. I was able to salvage the section bamboo broke first. The makers of this glue is RectaVit. Perhaps this is an entirelydifferent type of glue than the one you tested. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 4 09:37:37 1996 Subject: Re: Bill Ballan Special Wayne seez... When finished I will share the taper once I am able to test cast therod(s). If this works my next attempt will be to make a 6' 3" 3 - piece #2 on one butt section. If there is interest perhaps we can make it a listgroup project. That sounds like a great idea!!! I for one, would find it reallyinteresting to go through the design process. Perhaps we could dothings like scanning the graphs of the evolving tapers, and stresscurves, and put them in the archives and/or Bruce Conner's Web page BTW, the more I've been looking at stress curves, the more I likethem for visualizing tapers. The thinning & thickening of the caneas the taper progresses is very obvious looking at the resultantincreases and decreases in stress. Also, for those who have Wayne's book, and the included HEXROD program.I figured out a way to create input files for the program, rather thancontinually having to type in the data, and by capturing the output ina file, it makes it pretty easy to import into any spreadsheet program of days, for those interested. Mike Biondo- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 4 09:58:35 1996 Subject: Re: Glues for splices How about urac 185 for splices? Thats what I bought, but since I am completely new to this I have no idea about pros and cons. I bought this because it is mentioned in Bruce's FAQ, along with Wayne and Garrison's books. Has anyone done similar tests with URAC 185? On Wed, 3 Jan 1996 cbogart@ibm.net wrote: To All: Over the holidays I did a series of tests on 3 glues I had availto see which one would suit my needs for making splices. I had a numberof scrap sections that I attempted splices upon. I used three 1" springclamps per splice. I let all glued up splices sit overnight (min of 18 hours). I then did terrible things to each splice. I flexed each stripfirst vertically and then laterally. After that I applied heat and didthe same. I know this is sadistic but ... it will save me headaches latter. The results were as follows: PVA (Titebond-II) has a very short set on time prior to clampingand makes an excellent bond. I could only break it by applying moderateheat. Reactive Polyurethane (Excel and Gorrila - I used Borden's version) This glue has a short working time (less than 5 min). It did not appear to penetrate the cane. The joint can be broken easily and thejointis very smooth. The best result can be obtained from moistening thespliceprior to application of glue. However, I could not get a permanent gluedup joint. Urea Formaldehyde. I used Borden's powder version with wettingagent(see Zimny's article in planing form). At first I had problems. Goodresultscan be had if you 1. mix glue throughly for min of 5 minutes. and 2. Useaset on time prior to clamping of at least 10 minutes with 20 minutesbeingdesirable. Doing that I achieved a joint I could not break mechanically orwith heat. Comments? Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 4 16:18:49 1996 Subject: Re: Bill Ballan Special Wayne wrote When finished I will share the taper once I am able to test cast therod(s). If this works my next attempt will be to make a 6' 3" 3 - piece #2& #4 on one butt section. If there is interest perhaps we can make it alist group project. I would enjoy very much seeing the taper for these rods. I also, as MikeBiondo said, have learned a lot about what makes a rod work by runninglotsof stress graphs. Just when I feel that I can produce a good rod I realizethat I have just begun the learning process. I appreciate all the goodinformation that I have gotten from this list. I'm looking forward tomakingthe 6'3" 2wt that Wayne posted, and don't worry Wayne, even though I liveinFlorida I wont use it for tarpon. Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 4 17:22:17 1996 Subject: Hot air heat-treating Hi all, treat your cane? In the .pdf file 'hotair', it says between 15 and 30 minutes, which is a lot higher than is recommended in other locations. Is there a difference because of theheating method? Thanks,Scott AllredSt. Louis, MOsallred@ibm.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 4 18:19:34 1996 Subject: Re: Hex to Quad Reed All I can say is: a good taper is all in the eye of the beholder. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 4 18:33:20 1996 Subject: RE: Hot air heat-treating Subject: Hot air heat-treatingDate: Thursday, January 04, 1996 6:05AM Hi all, treat your cane? In the .pdf file 'hotair', it says between 15and 30 minutes, which is a lot higher than is recommendedin other locations. Is there a difference because of theheating method? I've been using a heat gun to heat treat my bamboo, butnot in an oven. What I do is starting at the middle of the culmand working my way towards the ends, I heat the inside of theculm until it scorches to a salt and pepper appearance. ThenI heat the enamel side until it just slightly darkens. I tested this method by taking a short section of a culm and heatgunning half of it as described above, and putting the other halfin a gas oven at 350 for 10 minutes . The percentages of weightloss was almost the same, so I would think the amount of temperingis the same. The advantages to this method is I can heat treat any length culmwithout a special oven, and maybe I'm more patient than others,but along with my Lie Nielsen scraper, lifts at the nodes don'treally bother me that much. I don't know if this method, alongwith heating and pressing the nodes as outlined in Wayne'sbook that does it, but it seems to me that cutting out the nodesand splicing the strips is a heck of a lot more work than justleaving the nodes in. They just aren't that much trouble. The disadvantage is my electric bill goes up. It probably takesme 45 minutes to heat treat a half of a culm, and the heat gunis on high all the time. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 4 20:09:17 1996 Subject: Curry's Quad theory -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Reed you're correct. But, in practice, It doesn't work. A rod built tothe same moment will be softer than a hex of the same moment. The Quadwill have a delciously different action and handle a much greater rangeot line weights.John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 5 16:38:18 1996 Subject: HEXROD Input/Output Files As I mentioned a few days ago, I have figured out a way to createinput files that HEXROD will read, and to save the output to afile, for later import into a spreadsheet program. Standard disclaimer: The follow procedure works albeit, not veryelegantly. It does however save a passle full of keystrokes if youwant to re-run a design more than once! :-) The key to the whole thing is DOS's ability to accept redirectionof it's standard input (keyboard) and output (screen/printer) to thatof a file. To create an HEXROD input file it's just a matter of creating a textfile that has the responses to each of the questions the HEXROD programasks. By putting those responses in the file, one response per line,in the same order as they are asked by HEXROD, HEXROD can be made to read those responses by executing the program as: HEXROD out_file.ext As above, 'in_file.ext' is the name of your input text file.'out_file.txt' is the name of file you would like to capture thescreen output. The following is a portion of the captured screen output. There wasmore that was actually outputted to the screen, however I editted outall that I felt was not useful. The following file I also was ableto import in a spreadsheet program so that I could use it's graphingcapabilities to plot the stress curve and taper. start 72W3P2-A.srn =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-= "Comments? Cattanach 72DT3-2.dat""Input Design #? 6ft. 0in. DT#3 2- piece""THE TIP FACTOR IS: 1.536531"Enter Tip Impact Factor You Want to Use, Then ENTER? 1.536531"PT TIP LINE V&G FERRULE BAMBOO TOTAL (F) DIMEN 1 1.54 0.001 0.000 0.000 0.000 1.538 123438 0.070005 7.68 0.034 0.076 0.000 0.053 7.845 161338 0.0740010 15.37 0.136 0.311 0.000 0.388 16.200 295705 0.0770015 23.05 0.305 0.705 0.000 1.090 25.148 229618 0.0970020 30.73 0.542 1.255 0.000 2.346 34.874 168183 0.1200025 38.41 0.848 1.963 0.000 4.429 45.653 144760 0.1380030 46.10 1.220 2.828 0.000 7.605 57.749 139777 0.1510035 53.78 1.661 3.851 0.000 12.106 71.396 132447 0.1650040 61.46 2.170 5.030 3.040 18.168 89.870 144642 0.1730045 69.14 2.746 6.368 6.840 25.965 111.063 156081 0.1810050 76.83 3.390 7.862 10.640 35.670 134.389 158226 0.1920055 84.51 4.102 9.514 14.440 47.526 160.090 150409 0.2070060 92.19 4.882 11.322 18.240 61.839 188.475 158036 0.2150065 99.87 5.729 13.289 22.040 79.047 219.980 86251 0.27700 end 72W3P2-A.scn =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-= The printer output can also be captured to a file but some sort of print capture utility is required. I have tried a shareware utility,PRINTDIR.exe that works quite well for this purpose. I have put thisprogram into the archives (PRINTDR9.zip) if anyone would like to try it.Basically, once this program is executed, anything that would normallygoto the printer will be diverted into a file instead. Well, there you have it. As I said, it certainly isn't elegant, but itworks, and thereby saves me a lot of typing. Let me know if you have any questions... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 5 21:32:58 1996 Subject: Re: Curry's Quad theory Reed you're correct. But, John,This is the closest I've come to being right in a dog's age. Ah well.Actually, I've cast a number of delightful quad rods; I'm still savoring the experience of a pretty little 7' 4wt... and yes, they did have a different feel. I can't quite explain it, a little woodier, perhaps. But the spell of the hex is still strong.Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 6 16:19:27 1996 Subject: Cane Rod Web Site I'm putting together a home page with links to rod building sites on theinternet. The address is -> http://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.htm There's a link to an amazing Stanley page. If you know of anything to add let me know! Gordon from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 6 20:17:24 1996 Subject: Binder I just wanted to thank every one for offers of help on the binder plans. I was able to get the plans from Bruce's web page through a friend. I am in the process of assembling the parts and have a couple of questions 1) is there a problem with cleaning the glue out of the copper tubing or do you just replace the tubing periodically. 2) is there an advantage to brass over copper tubbing. 3) What size of cotton thread is best for wrapping the rod. Thanks again for your help. Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 6 21:48:49 1996 Subject: Re: Binder Jim writes, Jim,I used an aluminum tube for my binder and the glue just breaks off after itisdry. I would think that it might be good to wipe it out before it drys but Ihave not had any problem getting it out when it has dried. The thread I use is "Coats" brand,"Dual Duty plus" for "buttons carpets &crafts". (The words in parentheses are on the spool of thread.) This is theheaviest I could find in a fabric store and it is "cotton covered polyester"thread that will hold up to post heat treating (if you do that step). I don'tasI flame treat the culm prior to final splitting.Martin Jensen from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 8 10:02:31 1996 Subject: How are the FRP rods ageing? Last night, swept by a wave of nostalgia I dug out my old Shakespeare Wonderrod (8'6" 2/1, HCH) that I bought in the early 60's and fished until 71. The last fish it caught were five 15" brookies in 6 casts in the closing hours of trout season on the Mirimachi near Doaktown. An honorable retirement for the white wonder. (And yes, the fish were delicious.) I noticed that the ol' stick had some serious cracks near the butt. This made me question how long these fiber reinforced plastic (fiberglass,boron, graphite) rods last. Does anyone else have old FRP rods > 20 years old and still usable? Reedrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 8 10:15:37 1996 Subject: Hex to Quad Conversion Please forgive my memory (or lack thereof) but someone was wanting toconvert a taper designed for hex construction to build a quad rod. I havea spreadsheet based on the Garrison design equations that I can use toderive the stress graph and then use that graph to generate a quad taper.If you could send me the taper and other pertinent information (line size,cast length, ferrule weight, tip weight, etc.) I would be glad to dothis for you. I am working on the spreadsheet to make it more userfriendly and will make it available to everyone on the list soon.regards,Davidhood@fc.hp.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 8 11:36:39 1996 Subject: RE: How are the FRP rods ageing? This brings to mind something I heard a long time ago. Twenty five years ago, in my teen years, I made surfboards.Back then, I don't know how they make them now, they weremade with a foam core and laminated with resin and fiberglass.There was some discussion in the fiberglass industry aboutthe life of the resins being used at the time. Most said theywould last forever, but a few were saying 30 to 40 years, andthey would start breaking down. In a surfboard this isn't abig deal, but I wonder about all the fiberglass boats andsmall airplanes that are reaching this age. Your rod maybe an indication of the old resins beginning to break down. Darryl Hayashida ----------From: owner-rodmakers Subject: How are the FRP rods ageing?Date: Monday, January 08, 1996 10:57AM Last night, swept by a wave of nostalgia I dug out my old ShakespeareWonderrod (8'6" 2/1, HCH) that I bought in the early 60's and fished until71. The last fish it caught were five 15" brookies in 6 casts in the closinghours of trout season on the Mirimachi near Doaktown. An honorableretirement for the white wonder. (And yes, the fish were delicious.) I noticed that the ol' stick had some serious cracks near the butt. Thismade me question how long these fiber reinforced plastic (fiberglass, boron,graphite) rods last. Does anyone else have old FRP rods > 20 years old andstill usable? Reedrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 8 11:59:09 1996 Subject: RE: How are the FRP rods ageing? There was some discussion in the fiberglass industry aboutthe life of the resins being used at the time. Most said theywould last forever, but a few were saying 30 to 40 years, andthey would start breaking down. Then I guess cane rods, some of which are 100 years old and going strong, ain't so fragile after all. I didn't know about this 30-40 years; seems likely tho' given the susceptibility of some plastics to UV. Your rod maybe an indication of the old resins beginning to break down. Aye, she's beginning to break up, Cap'n. A related question is: How are the modern adhesives going to last in cane rods? Are the epoxy (similar esters, etc. to FRP?) adhesives going to fail causingdelamination? Not trying to cause a panic... unless the vibration from thousands of cane rods simultaneously splitting asunder reverborates through the tectonic plates creating shifts in major faults, chasms opening throughout theworld, tsunamis sweeping down upon Alaska,.... Seriously, will the modern adhesives suffer the same fate? Reedrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 8 12:46:29 1996 Subject: lifespan of adhesives -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- To Reed et al: All of which brings us full circle to hide glues. If modern glues fail still sound. They had been glued by the cheapest, most unrefined ofhide glues. Hide glue is almost as strong as epoxy- as long as youdon't get it wet. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 8 13:35:56 1996 Subject: Re: How are the FRP rods ageing? This thread gives me an excuse to keep my old Wright-McGill glass rod -as if I need an excuse to hoard stuff - and even use it once or twice a year. Half of it is 25 years old. The two sections that were replaced after they broke are of unknown age. So far no butt cracks. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 8 13:44:32 1996 Subject: RE: How are the FRP rods ageing? Looks like the LISTPROC decided to choke on Darryl's post.Sorry if this is a duplicate folks... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= How are the modern adhesives going to last in cane rods? Are the epoxy(similar esters, etc. to FRP?) adhesives going to fail causing delamination?Not trying to cause a panic... unless the vibration from thousands of canerods simultaneously splitting asunder reverborates through the tectonicplates creating shifts in major faults, chasms opening throughout the world,tsunamis sweeping down upon Alaska,.... Seriously, will the modern adhesives suffer the same fate? Reedrcurry@jlc.net Seems to me I recall the major factor in the break downof the resins was ultraviolet light. I would assume thatthe glue in a cane rod doesn't get exposed to UV since they are inside the rod. I wonder about graphite rods, though. The resin bindingthem together is right at the surface. Let's see.... Graphitecame out in fly rods early 70's. The decade of the year2000 should start showing some inexplicable failuresof older graphite rods. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 8 14:29:59 1996 Subject: Re: How are the FRP rods ageing? -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Monday, 08-Jan-96 11:06 AM From: Curry \ Internet: (rcurry@handel.jlc.net) Subject: How are the FRP rods ageing? Last night, swept by a wave of nostalgia I dug out my old ShakespeareWonderrod (8'6" 2/1, HCH) that I bought in the early 60's and fisheduntil71. The last fish it caught were five 15" brookies in 6 casts in theclosing hours of trout season on the Mirimachi near Doaktown. Anhonorable retirement for the white wonder. (And yes, the fish weredelicious.) I noticed that the ol' stick had some serious cracks near the butt.This made me question how long these fiber reinforced plastic (fiberglass,boron, graphite) rods last. Does anyone else have old FRP rods > 20yearsold and still usable? Reedrcurry@jlc.net ReedAll rods do indeed have a "usable life", there are just so manycasts in a rod.Bamboo will show a slowing of action= breakdown of fibers.Fiberglass isnext and graphite last. However in "real life" most rods suffer brokentips and various other maladys long before their usable life is over.Do not discount the effects of the ultraviolet light spectrum,especially on FRP rods.Most graphite fails because of a surface nick or scratch weakingthe tube cross section long before it even approches a 10th of it'slife. Alas Bamboo is almost always the victim of the car door ormishandling while attempting to unstick a fly from a tree or otherobject.I have a few old, 20-25 yrs, rods a 9wt bonefish rod and a GreatEqualizer 12wt 9 wt was purchased and the 12 I made---both are Fisherblanks. They still fish well however they do not see the usage a troutrod of the same age would have.BTW Reed, I really like the old white wonder rods. I think thatyours has earned it's keep and provided many hrs of enjoyment, andmemories. Regards Jed -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 8 14:34:35 1996 Subject: Re: lifespan of adhesives John Z. wrote: All of which brings us full circle to hide glues. If modern glues fail still sound. They had been glued by the cheapest, most unrefined ofhide glues. Hide glue is almost as strong as epoxy- as long as youdon't get it wet. Perzactly! Another advantage is ease of repair. Even if the joint should delaminate, just re-glue (somtimes just redissolve the extant glue) andbind and voila. No old glue to scrape out, no re-jointing with loss of cane. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 8 17:36:43 1996 Subject: Custom Rod building Gentlemen, Does anyone have any info on custom rod building, or can they direct me to someone? I do custom weaves. Any info appreciated. Pat B. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 8 18:04:43 1996 Subject: Re: Custom Rod building Pat,You might want to try a copy of Dale Clemens' "Custom Rod Thread Art" orRodcrafters, Inc.C.T. Bldg.444 Schantz Spring Rd.Allentown PA 18104at Dale Clemens Custom Tackle (same address) 1-610-395-5119Hope this helps.Len Gorney lsgorney@rs01.kings.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 9 06:50:03 1996 Subject: Re: lifespan of adhesives John, All of which brings us full circle to hide glues. If modern glues fail still sound. They had been glued by the cheapest, most unrefined ofhide glues. Hide glue is almost as strong as epoxy- as long as youdon't get it wet. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about glues. Precisely, what is hideglue, is it still available, any brand names? Getting it wet? Just howwet is wet? Old type spar varnishes do breathe and allow some moisturetopass. A violin doesn't get subjected to the moist environments a flyrodfrequents. JackJack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 9 11:02:34 1996 Subject: Para 15 Does anyone have an accurate taper for a Paul Young Para 15 that theywouldbe willing to let me have? I have borrowed a Para 15 to measure but I amskeptical about my measurements being accurate as the rod has been"restored". I would like to build a Para 15 for my next rod. Jack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 9 11:18:39 1996 Subject: Re: Para 15 At 11:50 AM 1/9/96 -0500, you wrote: Does anyone have an accurate taper for a Paul Young Para 15 that theywouldbe willing to let me have? I have borrowed a Para 15 to measure but Iamskeptical about my measurements being accurate as the rod has been"restored". I would like to build a Para 15 for my next rod. Jack Speaking of tapers... I'm looking for any and all tapers to make availablethrough the internet. I can key them in from a paper copy if need be! I'llhave some available in the next couple of days at... http://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.htm/ Thanks,Gordon from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 9 11:48:20 1996 Subject: Re: Para 15 Speaking of tapers... I'm looking for any and all tapers to make availablethrough the internet. I can key them in from a paper copy if need be! I'llhave some available in the next couple of days at... http://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.htm/ Gordon What tapers do you have and what are you looking for? Jack Jack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 10 11:30:56 1996 Subject: Re: lifespan of adhesives Jack McKie wrote:I'm not particularly knowledgeable about glues. Precisely, what is hideglue, Hide glue is made from the gelatinous parts of ol' Dobbin; hide, hooves, etc. It was the principal adhesive for some hundreds of years (along with fish glues and casein) and was used on most furniture of the 19th andearly 20th century, and most cane rods prior to approx. 1930. F. E. Thomas rods were all made with hide glue and stood up well to wind and weather. It's delightful to work with (you get used to the odor), even rub joints are a snap, but if your joinery is poor, beware, it has very low gap-filling properties. is it still available, any brand names? Titebond sells a liquid version; but the flakes that you mix yourself (and add fungicide) are probably better. Try Wood craft for the flakes. Getting it wet? Just howwet is wet? Very. Immersing in warm water for a protracted period should do it. Do try hide glue. Once you try it you'll like it. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 10 11:31:03 1996 Subject: Cane Curving Greetings, After splitting the butt of my culm, I seemed to have a lot of curvingwhereby the split sections became very concave with the pith side on theinside. Is this normal or did I just have bad luck. Could it be moisture? Awaiting anyones reply, JB from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 10 11:31:42 1996 Subject: Re: Para 15 Does anyone have an accurate taper for a Paul Young Para 15 that theywouldbe willing to let me have? I have borrowed a Para 15 to measure but Iamskeptical about my measurements being accurate as the rod has been"restored". I would like to build a Para 15 for my next rod. Jack Jack,Chris Bogart sent this to me some time ago. *************** Here's the taper for the Para-15 that Jon Parker sent me. RonBarch says he gave it to Jon. Dry tip Wet tip 0 .070 .078 5 .086 .094 10 .107 .112 15 .123 .128 20 .138 .141 25 .157 .164 30 .170 .182 35 .189 .195 40 .208 .208 45 .225 .225 50 .239 .239 Butt 50 .239 55 .252 60 .260 65 .268 70 .277 75 .288 80 .300 85 .300 90 .300 95 .300 96 .300 Chris********************** Reedrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 10 11:32:09 1996 Subject: Nodeless FAQ There is now an FAQ file written by Chris Bogart. You can find it via alink in my FAQ or go directly there athttp://www.cybercom.net/~bconner/NodelessFAQ.html My thanks to Chris for sending me the material to add. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 16 12:10:48 1996 Subject: adhesives Here is another adhesive question.I went to a local woodworker suply store, and bought some epoxy theyhave.This epoxy is 2 parts, mixed at 1:1. It is waterproof, has a shear strength of 15,000 psi!, and is heat resistant. The only thing I didn't like about it is that there is a listed minimum glue line of 0.005".Is this a problem? My urac 185 arrived yesterday, but they forgot to send the hardener.I'm getting anxious to glue up these splices so I can get back to work.Am I asking for trouble if I use the epoxy for splices and then urac 185 Thanks in advance.mauro from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 16 12:11:27 1996 Subject: Flaming cane I want to try to get a really tight tiger stripe pattern on my cane for mynext rod. Anybody have a good technique for getting a fine flame patternlike this? I'm thinking of something about 1/4 inch between dark places. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 16 12:12:50 1996 Subject: urac 185 Hi all.I finaly got my urac 185.I called Cytec (Canada) and asked to buy about a pint pf glue.They said the smallest order was ~280 kg.(over 500 lbs). But if you ask nicely, they will send you a free sample of about 1 pint, and they also gave me ~1lbs of hardener, along with all the technical data on the glue.Just thought I'd share this with you all. I glued a splice that I made on a scrap piece, and it was very strong.The bamboo broke before the glue gave way, while applyfing lateralpressure!(ie across the strip) The strip actualy split in half, following the fibres, with the glue joint on one side failing (where the bamboo broke) and the other half still intact. Seems like good glue to me.mauro from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 16 12:12:55 1996 Subject: Broken flat Hi all, I wanted to find out how people handle broken flats before the rod is glued up. I am working on a practice rod and last week I broke aflat right before I was done planning. I reworked another flat, butthe question I have is dealing with heat treating. It seems like my replacement flat did not heat-treat as well since itwas the only thin in the oven. I is not as strait as the otherswhich were bound before being heat-treated. Any suggestions? Thanks,Scott AllredSt. Louis, MOsallred@ibm.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 16 12:13:33 1996 Subject: Testing-Testing 1-2-3-4 This is a TEST! This is a TEST! Had this been an actual emergency, you would have been instructedto proceed to your nearest fishin' hole!!! :-) Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 16 14:04:02 1996 Subject: Re: Minimum glue line We used to use microspheres (a 3M glass product used for light reflectivesigns) dto insure a minimum dthickness. They were 0.0025inches diameter. We used about 2 percent by weight. I'll bet a littlesander dust would provide the clamp pressure resistance youneed.Regards, Cliff from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 16 14:05:44 1996 Subject: Re: Testing-Testing 1-2-3-4 There is an emergency. It's raining and the water is like mud! This is a TEST! This is a TEST! Had this been an actual emergency, you would have been instructedto proceed to your nearest fishin' hole!!! :-) Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy -- Richard Johnsonjohnson@fire.ci.ssf.ca.usTraining Officer415 877-8952 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 16 14:37:19 1996 Subject: Nodes I have a couple of questions about nodes that I hope some of you can helpmewith. 1) Node pressing - In building my first rod I had problems withpressing/straightening nodes. I am using a hot air gun to heat the nodesand press them in a HD woodworking vise fitted with aluminum jaws.Initially the nodes seem to press easilly with the only problem beingremoving the kinks on the lateral plane. About 12 hours after pressingthenodes I started planing the rough strips. Much to my surprise the nodesseem to have swelled slightly, say .005" on the enamel side which gave meproblems when trying to plane accurate 60deg strips. Another problem isthat the area of the node that is pressed forms a flat surface or facet thatis higher than adjacent edges. I plan on making a vise jaw that has aconcave surface with a radius that roughly matches the radius of myculms.I don't know what caused the nodes to swell as our house has lowhumidity.Any comments and/or suggestions? 2) Node spacing - My first rod was built with 2-2-2 spacing asreccomended lessrandom staggered nodes using strips from many culms in a single rod. Iwould like to know what you think the pros and cons are on random nodestagering are. I am also considering 3-3-3. Any thoughts or commentsonthis subject? JackJack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 16 16:59:03 1996 Subject: Re: Testing-Testing 1-2-3-4 This is a test. Repeat, this is only a test. If this had been your real life, you would have been given better instructions. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 16 18:03:35 1996 Subject: Re: Broken flat Scott I cannot think where I saw the answer but I believe it is inGarrison. Bind it with other scrap strips rather than having it lonestrip. I have done a single strip but it is a crap shoot. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 16 18:07:47 1996 Subject: Tung Oil and Flexcote I recently tried a different (for me) tung oil calledFormby's Tung Oil. It dried to a shinier finish thanthe other tung oils I had been using. I finished aleftover scrap of a rod with it and then tried a coupleof test wraps on it using Flexcote and polyurethanevarnish. The Flexcote adhered very well to it, andthe polyurethane varnish didn't. The polyurethanelooked like I had used color preserver on the thread,and the Flexcote was clear all the way through,making a very good bond with the bamboo. Looks like finishing the rod with Formby's Tung Oilbefore wrapping the guides on and using Flexcoteon the wraps will work very well. Tung oil is a hand rubbed finish and doesn't require adipping tube setup. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 00:34:11 1996 Subject: Re: Tung Oil and Flexcote Looks like finishing the rod with Formby's Tung Oilbefore wrapping the guides on and using Flexcoteon the wraps will work very well. Tung oil is a hand rubbed finish and doesn't require adipping tube setup. Darryl, Sounds like a nice combination. How are you rubbing the oil into thecane? Any special pad or technique? Or is this a "rub 'em and leave 'em"sort of proposition? (sorry, couldn't help it!). I have a one piece rod coming up shortly that I don't have a dipping tubelong enough for and this might be a good answer. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 01:23:57 1996 Subject: Re: Tung Oil and Flexcote At 01:22 AM 1/17/96 -0500, you wrote: Looks like finishing the rod with Formby's Tung Oilbefore wrapping the guides on and using Flexcoteon the wraps will work very well. Tung oil is a hand rubbed finish and doesn't require adipping tube setup. Darryl, Sounds like a nice combination. How are you rubbing the oil into thecane? Any special pad or technique? Or is this a "rub 'em and leave 'em"sort of proposition? (sorry, couldn't help it!). I have a one piece rod coming up shortly that I don't have a dipping tubelong enough for and this might be a good answer. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net Another answer to the long section problem or lack of dip tank problem, Ihave been told, is to keep the section still and move the varnish. I've nottalked to anyone who has actually done this but... Allegedly you can remove the bottom from a bottle with a neck - like aliterpop bottle, place a ballon over the mouth of the bottle, run the rod sectionthrough a pin-hole in the ballon, suspend the section, fill the invertedbottle with finish, and slowly pull the bottle down the section. Rumor hasit that the pinhole in the ballon doesn't tear as the section passes throughit. Rod Section --> || | || ||~~~||~~~| || || || |Pop Bottle ->| || |\ || / \ || /\||/ {||} Another answer to the long section problem or lack of dip tank problem, Ihave been told, is to keep the section still and move the varnish. I've nottalked to anyone who has actually done this but... Allegedly you can remove the bottom from a bottle with a neck - like aliterpop bottle, place a ballon over the mouth of the bottle, run the rodsectionthrough a pin-hole in the ballon, suspend the section, fill the invertedbottle with finish, and slowly pull the bottle down the section. Rumorhasit that the pinhole in the ballon doesn't tear as the section passesthrough it. Rod Section --> ||| || ||~~~||~~~| Finish --+> || || || |Pop Bottle ->| || |\ || /\ || /\||/{||} |||||||| Anyone ever heard of this being done? Anyone believe it? Yes, I built that system and it works prety well except that the varnish Iused broke down the rubber in the tip and it leaked. If you could get somesilicone rubber thin enough, it would probably work better. Gave a nicefinish in any case. Dust was a bit of a problem for me. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 07:44:24 1996 Subject: Re: Testing-Testing 1-2-3-4 -Reply Totally cute! from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 07:53:33 1996 Subject: Broken flat Hi all, I wanted to find out how people handle broken flats before the rod is glued up. I am working on a practice rod and last week I broke aflat right before I was done planning. I reworked another flat, butthe question I have is dealing with heat treating. It seems like my replacement flat did not heat-treat as well since itwas the only thin in the oven. I is not as strait as the otherswhich were bound before being heat-treated. Any suggestions? Thanks,Scott AllredSt. Louis, MOsallred@ibm.net Jack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 07:54:09 1996 Subject: Re: Broken flat At 10:39 PM 1/14/96 +0000, you wrote:Hi all, I wanted to find out how people handle broken flats before the rod is glued up. I am working on a practice rod and last week I broke aflat right before I was done planning. I reworked another flat, butthe question I have is dealing with heat treating. It seems like my replacement flat did not heat-treat as well since itwas the only thin in the oven. I is not as strait as the otherswhich were bound before being heat-treated. Any suggestions? Thanks,Scott AllredSt. Louis, MOsallred@ibm.net In building my first rod I figures I'd screw up at least one strip so Iplaned 6 extra strips and heat treated them all at the same time. I nowhave extra strips in case I break a section. I don't know how storage willeffect the extra strips. JackJack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 08:53:02 1996 Subject: Re: Nodes Jack McKie Writes: I have a couple of questions about nodes that I hope some of you can helpme with. 1) Node pressing - In building my first rod I had problems withpressing/straightening nodes. I am using a hot air gun to heat the nodesand press them in a HD woodworking vise fitted with aluminum jaws.Initially the nodes seem to press easily with the only problem beingremoving the kinks on the lateral plane. About 12 hours after pressingthe nodes I started planing the rough strips. Jack since no one else has responded i will give you my 2 cents worth. I am new at Bamboo building and have experienced some of the sameproblems.The way that I have dealt with it is to deal with the nodes in stages as iwork on the rod.1. I file the nodes so they are fairly smooth but with a rise still in them.2. I press them as you do with a heat gun in a vice. I press them first andthen turn the bamboo piece to straighten the node. This seems moreimportant,to me, to get a good start on my preliminary planing so I do not cutthroughthe power fibers. 3. I do my preliminary planing. If there is a SMALL hump at the node I dealwith it after I have my rough 60 degree angle planing. For this I use adetail sander. Then I finish my preliminary planing. The node is almostsmooth at this point.4. As I do my final planing with the taper set. I deal with the finalsmoothing of the node in my forms. I sand with the detail sander, 400 grit,and use a bodied scraper to get it perfectly smooth. As I stated above, I am new at this and have learned from books and longdistance advice so this may not be the proper or easiest way, but it works!It also keeps me from taking to much off the node ridge an any one time. 2) Node spacing - My first rod was built with 2-2-2 spacing asrecommended lessrandom staggered nodes using strips from many culms in a single rod. from everything that I have read you do NOT want to use cane fromdifferentculms. Every piece of cane is a little different and mixing them, I am surewill effect the action. I have been surprised that of all the rods that Ihave made that only one had a spine that could be found. I chalk this up tocareful planing and matching of bamboo. I have been using the 2-2- 2stagerand have been happy with it. Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 10:00:16 1996 Subject: Re: Tung Oil and Flexcote Sounds like a nice combination. How are you rubbing the oil into thecane? Any special pad or technique? Or is this a "rub 'em and leave 'em"sort of proposition? (sorry, couldn't help it!). I use a piece of an old worn out tee shirt to rub on the tung oil, makingsure all the flats are wet, let it sit for 30 to 45 minutes, rub off the excessand let it dry overnight. Another technique that I have used with the other tung oil I was using,but haven't tried with this Formby's tung oil yet, is to lay out a lengthof kitchen plastic wrap, put the blank down the center (make sure theplastic wrap is a few inches longer at both ends), saturate the blankwith tung oil using a small paint brush, then fold the plastic wrap downthe center with the blank in the middle, tuck the ends over to seal thetung oil in, and roll the plastic wrap up around the blank. A couplerubber bands to hold everything together, and wait as long as youwant to let the tung oil penetrate the bamboo. I typically wait threedays. Strip off the plastic wrap, wipe off the excess tung oil, let dryovernight, and you have a finish as good as putting on a half dozenlayers the other way. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 09:49:56 1996 Subject: Re: adhesives Here's a reply from Chris that apparently didn't make it throughwith the last LISTPROC snafu...sorry if it's a duplicate. Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= from cbogart@ibm.net Tue Jan 16 18:12:00 1996Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 18:36:00 Subject: Re: adhesives Mauro It is hard to tell which epoxy (there are litteraly thousands ofblends) you bought at a hardware store. The ones I have seen their don'tseem appropriate for rodbuilders. I would not mix and match glues - thatis where I got in trouble. I have some more glues on order to do more testing. I would advise you to make up more test strips until you geta combo that you feel confortable with. Also with urac-185 you mightwant to try a wetting agent (see John Zimny's article in planing form).It will help with the glue. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 10:41:03 1996 Subject: RE:Tung Oil and Flexcote *************************************************************************I didn't realize my posting on this subject would stir upthe long rod in a short dip tube subject again, but thereprobably are new members on the list, so here is a repostof a solution I came up with a few months ago. This methodworks very well when I want to put a polyurethane finishon my rods. I have been leaning towards a tung oil finishbecause it preserves the nice sharp edges of the hexagonalcross section, where a varnish finish tends to round out theedges and flats.************************************************************************** I have been tinkering with a way to dip varnish my rodswithout having to resort to stepper motors, or pulleyset ups, etc. This is what I came up with. In my garage, I clamped a piece of pvc pipe 50 incheslong, upright along one of the exposed studs. Thebottom end I capped off using the standard pvcpipe cap and pvc glue, the top end I left open. Before Iglued on the cap I mounted a small valve I found in aplumbing supply store. I think it was meant to be a watervalve for an ice making machine in a refrigerator. A fewinches above the top I mounted a spring clamp usingpieces of wood and a couple of wood screws. This partlooks sort of jury rigged, but the result I was trying to achievewas getting the center of the clamp directly above thecenter axis of the pipe. I then fill the pipe with varnish, slide the rod section down intothe pipe and hold the rod section with the clamp. I like to tapthe pipe and rod section to try to shake loose any clingingbubbles. Let it sit for a few minutes, put the varnish canunder the valve, and barely open the valve. I can controlthe rate that the pipe empties fairly precisely, and achievethe 4 to 6 inches a minute recommended in some of thebooks. By draping a cloth over the top of the rod sectionand taping it closed around the top of the pipe, coveringthe top, I eliminate any dust getting in as the varnishempties. I then put paint thinner in a coffee can and liftthe can to submerge the valve in the paint thinner toclean the valve. If you leave the valve open, and youshould to get the varnish out of the valve's insides, besure you don't fill the bottom of the pipe and get theend of your rod section. I leave the rod section in the pipe until the varnish sets,then hang it from a rafter to fully harden. A professionalfinish for less than 30 dollars. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 11:17:51 1996 Subject: RE: Broken flat Hi all, I wanted to find out how people handle broken flats before the rod isglued up. I am working on a practice rod and last week I broke aflat right before I was done planning. I reworked another flat, butthe question I have is dealing with heat treating. It seems like my replacement flat did not heat-treat as well since itwas the only thin in the oven. I is not as strait as the otherswhich were bound before being heat-treated. Any suggestions? This doesn't help for your current problem, but in the futureconsider this: A couple of weeks ago I posted my method of heat treatingthe culm before I split it. I use a heat gun on the inside untilthe pith is scorched and then heat gun the outside. If youwant a light colored rod, don't heat gun the outside as much.If you want a flamed rod, use a torch on the outside justuntil the enamel flakes off. The advantages to this method are you can heat treat anylength culm you want, all your strips are heat treated thesame, even your spares, and you don't need an oven.Planing the strips is easier because you are planing heattreated strips not raw bamboo, your blades stay sharp longer,and I seemingly don't have as much trouble with nodes asmuch as other people, It seems to me making a nodelessrod is much more trouble than leaving the nodes in. Theyjust aren't that much trouble. This may be due to the nodesbeing heat treated before I start planing. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 11:23:21 1996 Subject: urac 185 Thought i'd share my progress with you all.I glued up a few strips ( nodeless ) with the Garrison string wrap method.I did this on a test strip, and had very good results. I let the test strip sit right on top of a heating vent in my bedroom the whole time ( about 3 days). Then I glued up some splices with the string wrap method, and let them sit for about 2 days before removing the string ( no heat ).I had most splices fail, and had to redo them. I think the heat has an incredible effect on the glue.Also, I bought some spring clamps as Chris suggests in the nodeless FAQ, and I will NEVER AGAIN use string. I can only do 2 strips at a time ( about 20 clamps), but I plan on working on the dried ones while the next ones are setting. So no real time wasted. I removed the clamps after 12 hours, and then moved them to a warm spot ( over vent), where I will let them sit for a few days at least. The data sheet says at >70 F, full strength is reached in 5 days. I will heed this in the future.Mauro from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 13:25:04 1996 Subject: RE: Nodes I think the LISTPROC was taking a nap for one of Darryl's posts.This one showed up in the errors folder. Sorry about that... Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy ps: Darryl, thanks for the repost of your "lower the water, don'traise the bridge" method of dipping rods. I really like thatsetup.=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: "Hayashida, Darryl - HADN" Subject: RE: NodesDate: Wed, 17 Jan 96 10:06:00 PST 2) Node spacing - My first rod was built with 2-2-2 spacing asreccomended lessrandom staggered nodes using strips from many culms in a single rod. Iwould like to know what you think the pros and cons are on random nodestagering are. I am also considering 3-3-3. Any thoughts or commentsonthis subject? I use the Garrison method of node staggering, which is to offset thenodes by about an inch and a half, cut each end off evenly, thenarrange the strips in a 1 - 5 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 4 order. This gives the mostrandom staggering order you can with strips from the same culm.As mentioned in Wayne's book though, it is hard to avoid gettinga node close to the tip. The only saving grace in this instance isthat it is usually only one node close to the tip, and it is supported your bamboo since you will be trimming 7 1/2 inches off on eachend. I usually do this with a full length strip (when they are 6 feetlong), so it isn't a problem. One of the detractions of production bamboo rods was that theyused strips from many culms in a rod. It is impossible to get thesame flex characteristics in all six strips unless it comes from thesame culm. I would avoid using strips from different culms in thesame fly rod. On the other hand, since I am accumulating manyleft over spare strips, I have started making spinning rods withmismatched strips. Spinning rods don't need the even flexcharacteristics fly rods do. Or if you want to put together a"beater" rod, one that you are going to abuse by taking ithiking or throw in a boat, or beat around in a brushy stream,then you can use mismatched strips. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 13:40:37 1996 Subject: Flaming cane Bruce, I already did tiger stripe patterns on three rods so far and my next onewillbe a tiger-stripe again. Simple to do, I used my hot air gun to "flame" eachstrip. I first made pencil marks using the desired distance between the"darkspots". Flame before planing. That's all there is to it. Frank from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 15:46:20 1996 Subject: Video Alert It always seems that I have to learn things the hard way - Somehow Ihave a problem with the second video - The problem is a control trackproblemand the vertical positioning and hold is terrible. be (Angler's Art or Others) I will be sending updates as soon as I can get alist of those that have them. Another Fine Mess I've Gotten Myself In Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 15:54:32 1996 Subject: Tiger Stripe It has become known to some people aroundmy neighborhood that I "do something" with bamboo.A neighbor of mine approached me about makinga walking staff made from bamboo. What he wantedwas a spiral flamed pattern to match a walking staffhis father had many many years ago. The walkingstaff didn't have to be made from split bamboo, justa piece of bamboo about an inch in diameter. I useda "tomato stake" from a garden supply store, wrappeda string soaked in water in a spiral pattern around it,and flamed it with a propane torch, being careful notto overheat the string so that it burned, but getting theexposed bamboo dark. I then scraped off the enameland varnished it. It made a very nice walking staff. I don't think this technique is good for a fly rod since itintroduces quite a bit of moisture in the bamboo fromthe soaked string, but maybe somebody out thereknows of a heat resistant ribbon of something thatcan be used. Then what could be done is to wrapthis stuff on the splines before a brown toning heattreatment in an oven. Then I would bet that theresult would be a very interesting spiral pattern. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 16:41:20 1996 Subject: Re: Tiger Stripe What surface temperature must be achieved for stripes? THere are ways--- -Regards, CLiff from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 17 16:49:11 1996 Subject: RE: Tung oil & Flexcote -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Bruce's description of a dipping setup using a ballon is pretty much onthe money.Most finishes we see today on Graphite, or for that matter most frprods are done by this procedure. They use pure latex with a tiny holeand this is stretched over a container that looks somewhat like afunnel, top and bottom, with the finish in the middle. The bottom holeprevents the finish from escaping, in truth it does drip somewhat. Thetop latex acts as a wiper giving a smooth even coating to the sandedand cleaned blank. The top piece of course has a larger diameter holethan the bottom, and both ( holes ) are made with a punch so they areperfectly round. This proceedure is used with epoxy type coatings thatare fairly thick compared to a ureathene varnish.This is how a black graphite blank can become pleasing shade of greenor any color you desire. The quality of the finish is of courserelative to the blank preperation, AND operators skill, just as a fineglass smoth varnish on a cane rod is.Jed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 13:15:27 1996 Subject: RE: Nodes From: "Hayashida, Darryl - HADN" Subject: RE: NodesDate: Wed, 17 Jan 96 10:06:00 PST I use the Garrison method of node staggering, which is to offset thenodes by about an inch and a half, cut each end off evenly, thenarrange the strips in a 1 - 5 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 4 order. This gives the mostrandom staggering order you can with strips from the same culm.As mentioned in Wayne's book though, it is hard to avoid gettinga node close to the tip. The only saving grace in this instance isthat it is usually only one node close to the tip, and it is supported your bamboo since you will be trimming 7 1/2 inches off on eachend. I usually do this with a full length strip (when they are 6 feetlong), so it isn't a problem. I had considered Garrison's method but Wayne's suggestion of 2-2-2 seemstomake a bit more sense to me. One of the detractions of production bamboo rods was that theyused strips from many culms in a rod. It is impossible to get thesame flex characteristics in all six strips unless it comes from thesame culm. I would avoid using strips from different culms in thesame fly rod. On the other hand, since I am accumulating manyleft over spare strips, I have started making spinning rods withmismatched strips. Spinning rods don't need the even flexcharacteristics fly rods do. Or if you want to put together a"beater" rod, one that you are going to abuse by taking ithiking or throw in a boat, or beat around in a brushy stream,then you can use mismatched strips. I have fished a few production rods with randome node spacing and Iassumestrips from different culms. These rod didn't match up to the few qualityrods I've cast but they didn't seem truly horrible. One rod I have is a7-1/2' Montague that I bought at the flea for $25.00. It casts much betterthat I would have imagined. I thought that the main difference betweentheproduction rod and a high end rod is the workmanship (accurate strips,taper, finish, etc.). For now I guess I'll stick with the 2-2-2. Mightbe an interesting experiment to build two identical rods one with matched2-2-2 stagered strips and one with mismatched randome staggered strips. JackJack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 13:33:00 1996 Subject: Rod binder idea Hi everybody! Harold Ball wrote to me recently and told me he has found a source forinexpensive 6 inch diameter wheels (phenolic-linen composite) forbuildingthe Milward style rod binder. The wheels might be a little on the thinside, but things can be done to make the hub connection to the coppertubing stronger. I'm just waiting for Harold to find the address for me(no pressure Harold, honest! ) If, for some reason, this source for wheels doesn't pan out, would anyonebe interested in an "improved" design which doesn't use big wheels? Ihavebeen scribbling and I think I have one pretty well worked out that could bemade without a lathe and using nothing but a saw, drill, and a wrench. Ifthere is enough interest, I'll build a prototype and write up the plans forthe web page. Thanks for all the advice on flaming my cane to get a good tiger stripepattern. The way I've been doing it is with a presto-lite torch and itworks OK, but there are things about it which could be better. I'd like toget a very even darkening in my stripes and no really dark spots like Itend to do with the torch. Anybody have a CO2 laser handy? *grin* I bet adefocused laser spot would make a nice pattern with smooth transitionbetween dark and light. Another of my brilliant ideas lands in a Gaussian heap. *sigh* Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 14:32:41 1996 Subject: Another tiger-stripe idea for Bruce Bruce, How 'bout a length of copper (or other metal) pipe, with evenly-spaced holes drilled along its length, capped at one end, hose (with check valve, of course) leading to propane tank/natural gas line at the other. Turn on the gas, light the row of flames, rotate the culm (supported at both ends) over the flames till the desired color is reached. Presto, tiger stripes. No, of course I haven't tried it. But it seems like it should work. Or, you could try a bunch of candles lined up in a row ;-) -chuck oey, certified lurker. _____________________________________________________________________Professional Publications, Inc. profpubl@crl.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 14:36:15 1996 Subject: Lathes I've got the chance to purchase a Taig mini-lathe for $250.It can handle 3" dia. by 15" length. It also has the Taig millingattachment with it. The one deficency I know of is that has no power feed capability. So I guess any thread cutting is out. Does anyone out there know about these lathes? Is this a good deal?The owner says it's $400+ new, US made, with parts readily available.Any other questions I should be asking of the owner? I would be using it for rodmaking, and any small metalworking projectsthat I might want to play around with. Thanks... Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 15:17:42 1996 Subject: ferrules I am getting a price on super Z ferrules here in canada, and would like to know how the prices compare with the US (retail). What would be a typical price for one of these in the US? Also, what should I pay for nickle silver reel seat hardware? There will obviously be a difference with what you get, but anything would be helpful.thanksmauro from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 16:28:52 1996 Subject: Re: ferrules Mauro,You might want to try:The Sportsman's Supply House (aka E. Hille's, Inc.)P.O. Box 996Williamsport PA 17703800-326-6612 to $40 for a female w/ 2 males) US dollars, of course. Hope this helps.Len Gorney lsgorney@rs01.kings.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 15:37:55 1996 Subject: Re: Lathes At 02:27 PM 1/18/96 CST, you wrote: I've got the chance to purchase a Taig mini-lathe for $250.It can handle 3" dia. by 15" length. It also has the Taig millingattachment with it. The one deficency I know of is that has no power feed capability. So I guess any thread cutting is out. Does anyone out there know about these lathes? Is this a good deal?The owner says it's $400+ new, US made, with parts readily available.Any other questions I should be asking of the owner? I would be using it for rodmaking, and any small metalworking projectsthat I might want to play around with. Mike, I've been both a hobbiest and professional in machining metal and have alotof experience with various sizes of lathes. To be honest you couldprobubly get more for your money by spending it on parts to build a latherather than buying a very small/light/inexpensive lathe. The Taig lathe has been around for a while but is so light and weak that Idoubt that you could do much more than turn down rod sections to acceptferrules. Metal turning would be possible but I think the results you wouldget would be dissappointing at best. Made in USA is good but not in thiscase. The main problem with a lathe as small as a Taig is that it justdoesn't have enough mass to dampen vibrations and provide rigidity. Three options exist when it comes to getting a lathe for what I think youhave in mind. Buying new lathe, buying used lathe, building a lathe.Buying a new lathe is great if you have money to burn or if you live wherethere just aren't many used lathes on the market. There are reasonablefunctional Asian made lathes available for about $1100.00. Used lathesareyour best bet if you can find one that suits your needs. A good used 8-10"lathe should set you back about $1000-$1500 with at least some tooling.Building a lathe is an option that is very realistic if you have the time,patience, and knowledge to do it. I don't know what you really want to do with your lathe but would assumeyouwant to be able to handle anything you would encounter in making a rodfromscratch. I think an ideal lathe for rodbuilding would have a 8-10" swingand atleast 18" between centers. It should have thread cuttingcapabilitieswith a quick change gear box being desireable. Power crossfeed isdesireable. The hole through the head stock should be as large as you canfind with a morse taper in the business end. It should weigh a couplehundred lbs or more. If at all possible look for a lathe with prismaticways which look like this in cross section- or similar. /\_/\ _ _/\Flat ways such as found on a Myford, some Clausings, Craftsman, etc. justdon't work as well as prismatic ways. Tubular ways on a metal latheshouldbe avoided like plague. Acouple of examples of lathes that might fill your needs would be a SouthBend 9" lathe or a Logan 9" or 10" lathe. I have a Logan 9" lathe and useto have a SB model C. The logan is much more lathe but there isn'tanything wrong with a SB which is much easier to move. I hope this has been some help. Jack Jack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 16:48:53 1996 Subject: More FAQ stuff! I have added a short article as a link from the FAQ which deals with asimple method for making quadrate rods. It's basically the same methodsuggested by Harry Brotherton in " Making Fishing Rods as a Hobby" and G.Lawton Moss in "How to Build and Repair Your Own Fishing Rods". http://www.cybercom.net/~bconner/quad-rod-form.html Let me know what you think. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 18:47:02 1996 Subject: Belting for the Milward binder -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- To Bruce Conner et al :A company in Miami Lakes Florida sells drive belting that can probablyused to good effect on the Milward Binder. It is a round polymer thatcan be cut to any length and fused together with a match. Because onestretches it over the sheaves, idler sheaves are unnecessary and thebelt is more or less automatically tensioned. The company's name isSMALL PARTS. John Zimny from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 19:47:07 1996 Subject: Re: Lathes The one thing I'm sure about is that theTaig is a good little lathe. I haven'tseen the Taig in person, but I have seenBonnie Klein's miniature wood lathe, which is an adaptation of it, and the quality isexcellent. As for the price...it's hard to tell. Ihave a price list from Taig, but it is noteasy to tell exactly what each item includes.The "Micro Lathe basic unit" lists for $147.20.Pullies and tailstock are optional. However,it looks like a cross slide is part of the package. As for accessories:The tailstock is another $29.80, I think. (It'slisted as a "Drilling Tailstock," and it's the only one listed. Don't know what the "Drilling"is meant to tell us.) Throw in another $19 fora pulley set and $55.30 for a 1/10 hp motor or$90.75 for 1/4 horse. 3-jaw scroll chuck is$47.55. Collet set is $23.80. And so on. On the other hand, it seems to me that I've seenthe lathe in someone's catalog for something likethe $400 you've been quoted. No idea what wasincluded for that price. In case you haven't actually seen the unit, ithas a swing of 4.5 inches and a distance betweencenters (assuming you get the tailstock) of 9.25inches. Carriage travel is 9 inches. Cross slidetravel is 1.75 inches. Lane, Chandler, AZ 85249. Phone is (602) 895-6978. Hope this helps. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 19:56:31 1996 Subject: Re: Lathes An afterthought: I've just noticed the other answer to your query and want to make sure I amnot misleading you. When I say theTaig is a good machine, I mean it appears to be well made--precise andnicely finished. But Jack is rightwhen he says that there is no weight toit. It's strictly for very small turningsand light duty--great for Bonnie'stiny projects in wood, not so great forwork much larger or heavier. If youwant to do anything more than preparingyour rod to take a ferrule, you will needsomething sturdier, and preferably bigger. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 20:15:46 1996 Subject: RE: Nodes Darryl wrote: One of the detractions of production bamboo rods was that theyused strips from many culms in a rod. It is impossible to get thesame flex characteristics in all six strips unless it comes from thesame culm. I would avoid using strips from different culms in thesame fly rod. I wonder if this might not be a matter of folk-wisdom. While it is true that the production rods (by this I assume we mean the inexpensive rodsmade with the mass-market in mind; e.g., Montague, H-I, Heddon, Chubb, South Bend, etc. remembering, of course that South Bend also made rods for Paul Young, just as Heddon rods assumed a number of different names) weremade with the minimum of manual labor, and caring for the individual strips of each culm was quite expensive, lets look at the practices of other firms. I took a tour of the Orvis factory years ago and Wes Jordan showed me the steps they used in producing a rod. Piles of strips would be sorted to choose a good match for a rod. Hmm! But, you say, that was an Orvis. I have it on good authority that the Edwards never worried about how many culms went into a rod, so long as the end result passed muster. We have to wonder how many full-time rodmakers (Leonard, Payne,Thomas, etc.) who used bevelers or milling machines for which you must cut the strips wide, concerned themselves about the one culm/one rod? And if astrip broke, did they chuck the whole blank? GIven that the properties of a culm can vary considerably from one side of the cane to the other; doesn't it make more sense to choose strips from different culms? Who was that fastidious maker that took only a few strips from each culm, anyoneremember? Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net P.S. - I have enjoyed some lovely "production" rods. My packing rod is a 7.5' 5/2 5wt. CHUBB. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 18 21:09:50 1996 Subject: Re: Belting for the Milward binder -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- To Bruce Conner et al :A company in Miami Lakes Florida sells drive belting that can probablyused to good effect on the Milward Binder. It is a round polymer thatcan be cut to any length and fused together with a match. Because onestretches it over the sheaves, idler sheaves are unnecessary and thebelt is more or less automatically tensioned. The company's name isSMALL PARTS.John Zimny Yup. A good catalog to have on hand. I used the poly belting from them formy binder and it works great! Give them a call at 1 800 220 4242.BTW, I just got a card in the mail last week that says they now acceptVisa, Mastercard, and American Express cards. A good thing made evenbetter. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 19 09:37:32 1996 Subject: Lathes The Klein Design Lathes are listed in the GarretWade ToolCatalog 800-221- 2942 in N.Y. A complete unit for rod making purposes iswell over $400.The headstock spindle is described as hollow but you must besure it is big enough to accomodate the but of the largest rod you intendto make. good luck, Jim Boone from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 19 10:00:50 1996 Subject: RE: Nodes Looks like the LISTPROC ate another of Darryl's posts... Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=From: "Hayashida, Darryl - HADN" Subject: RE: NodesDate: Fri, 19 Jan 96 07:36:00 PST Darryl wrote: One of the detractions of production bamboo rods was that theyused strips from many culms in a rod. It is impossible to get thesame flex characteristics in all six strips unless it comes from thesame culm. I would avoid using strips from different culms in thesame fly rod. I wonder if this might not be a matter of folk-wisdom. While it is truethat the production rods (by this I assume we mean the inexpensive rods madewith the mass-market in mind; e.g., Montague, H-I, Heddon, Chubb, SouthBend, etc. remembering, of course that South Bend also made rods forPaulYoung, just as Heddon rods assumed a number of different names) weremadewith the minimum of manual labor, and caring for the individual stripsofeach culm was quite expensive, lets look at the practices of other firms. Along with the folk wisdom of this matter, which I draw heavilyupon, I also draw from personal experience. The spinning rodsand "practice" rods that I have made from mismatched stripshave the most pronounced jump, spline, spine, or whateveryou want to call it. Most of the matched strip rods I have madehave a less pronounced jump, and about half of them havea barely noticeable jump. Of course there is the whole matter of does a jump in the blankreally affect the action of the completed rod that much, andmaybe we as bamboo rod makers are paying too muchattention to something that doesn't matter in the completed rod. Just as an aside, on some of the rods I have made, I was verycareful about locating the spine, but after wrapping the guideson, I couldn't find it any more. Is it possible that the wraps andguides stiffened the blank on one side only, compensating Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 19 16:32:12 1996 Subject: RE: Nodes Reed Great myth one culm / one rod. Was Dickerson is the man who used to take select strips from multiple culms you were refering to ?!? I got it in print. Also, look at the 95 fly fishing edition of Grays Sporting Journal.It has a photo essay on Glenn Brackett of Winston. Look at him holding abundle of strips. he matches on color. Sooooo... back to the drawingboard on this issue. What is best? Both methods appear to work if therodmaker knows what he is doing and doesn't sacrifice quality. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 19 16:52:52 1996 Subject: Something new for the ftp site I wrote a little program on my MacIntosh which, while not strictlyrodbuilding, is nevertheless useful to flyfishermen. It's a leadercalculator (for the MacIntosh, windows version soon!) which tells you howmuch of what diameters you need for various length knotted leaders. Ihaveused this formula, which someone on the newsgroup posted last year anditworks very well, so I automated it. Allows you to specify the leaderlength and the tippet size. Butt diameter is only .020 max, so it's mainly It's written in HyperCard for the MacIntosh and is called Leader_maker.bin Let me know if you like it! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 19 17:49:48 1996 Subject: Mike's Lathe -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Mike,I concur with Jack. Don't waste your dough on that Taig lathe. You'llfind that the tooling you purchase won't be transferable to a heavierlathe. Tooling represents more than half of the ultimate cost of alathe. In the long run, you won't be happy with the smaller lathe. Ialways recommend that new rod makers purchase the larger 'tool room'lathes. Mostly, they don't take heed and they are always sorry. Betterto make do without and save your money for a usable tool. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 19 20:18:51 1996 Subject: Re: Mike's Lathe At 06:25 PM 1/19/96 EST, you wrote:-- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Mike,I concur with Jack. Don't waste your dough on that Taig lathe. You'llfind that the tooling you purchase won't be transferable to a heavierlathe. Tooling represents more than half of the ultimate cost of alathe. In the long run, you won't be happy with the smaller lathe. Ialways recommend that new rod makers purchase the larger 'tool room'lathes. Mostly, they don't take heed and they are always sorry. Betterto make do without and save your money for a usable tool. John I have to agree with you for the most part on tooling costs and ability totransfer them to a larger machine. The transfer can be done but doesn'tseem worth the effort. One nice thing about buying a used machine is thatmost often you get at least a minimum amount of tooling with the lathe. One thing I forgot to mention to Mike is that before you buy a lathe youneed to inspect it. You will need at least a test bar and a dialindicator. The idea is to inspect the lathe to determine at least roughlywhat accuracy the lathe is capable of and deciding if the accuracy isadequet for your purposes. Your point is well taken about saving money now and being happy later. JackJack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 19 20:18:55 1996 Subject: Re: Mike's Lathe At 06:25 PM 1/19/96 EST, you wrote:-- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Mike,I concur with Jack. Don't waste your dough on that Taig lathe. You'llfind that the tooling you purchase won't be transferable to a heavierlathe. Tooling represents more than half of the ultimate cost of alathe. In the long run, you won't be happy with the smaller lathe. Ialways recommend that new rod makers purchase the larger 'tool room'lathes. Mostly, they don't take heed and they are always sorry. Betterto make do without and save your money for a usable tool. John I have to agree with you for the most part on tooling costs and ability totransfer them to a larger machine. The transfer can be done but doesn'tseem worth the effort. One nice thing about buying a used machine is thatmost often you get at least a minimum amount of tooling with the lathe. One thing I forgot to mention to Mike is that before you buy a lathe youneed to inspect it. You will need at least a test bar and a dialindicator. The idea is to inspect the lathe to determine at least roughlywhat accuracy the lathe is capable of and deciding if the accuracy isadequet for your purposes. Your point is well taken about saving money now and being happy later. JackJack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 20 06:32:35 1996 Subject: RE: Nodes Chris, At 04:47 PM 1/19/96, you wrote:Reed Great myth one culm / one rod. Was Dickerson is the man who used to take select strips from multiple culms you were refering to ?!? I got it in print. I looked at Stein/Schaff book about Dickerson and it seemed a bit vague tome as to what he really did about matching strips. What I derive is thathe used two sets of 3 matched strips. Can you clarify this? Also, look at the 95 fly fishing edition of Grays Sporting Journal.It has a photo essay on Glenn Brackett of Winston. Look at him holding abundle of strips. he matches on color. Sooooo... back to the drawingboard on this issue. I didn't see this article. Please fill me in as to how Glen matches strips What is best? Both methods appear to work if therodmaker knows what he is doing and doesn't sacrifice quality. There are usually more than one way to do anything. The novice likemyselfis just trying to sort out the elements that are necessary. I want tobuild a rod that performs well, that is durable, and has eye apeal. Theproblem is that the quality of the bamboo I have been able to get makes itdifficult to get enoughusable material for one rod out of one culm. JackJack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 20 10:33:56 1996 Subject: Re: Mike's Lathe I'd to thank everyone for your thoughts and cautions on the littlelathes. As all have said, it would be fine for rodbuilding, but ifI wanted to do much else with it, I would be unhappy with the choice.And, given the fact that I (as I am sure anyone who embarks on buildingtheir own cane rod) am tinker'er at heart, I'm sure I would soon beunhappy with the choice. If any of you happen to hear of a good deal on a lathe in your localarea, could you please let me know about it. I'm sure shipping wouldbe prohibitive in most cases, but the it was really a *good deal* :-)it might be worth the shipping. Or if it's within a reasonable distance of St. Louis, I could make the trip. Thanks again for all your help... Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 20 11:08:11 1996 Subject: Lathe As if we haven't beat the subject of a lathe to death I have one more shortthing to add. I just got a Grizzly catalog in the mail and while glancing through itnoticed a lathe for $795. This looks like a lathe they used to offer forquite a bit more. The price is very reasonable considering it has a coupleof chucks with it. It may be one of those products that is too good to betrue but it would be worth investigating. I still think a used lathe wouldbe better but... JackJack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 20 11:08:22 1996 Subject: RE: Nodes I'm not sure if this note from Reed made it through. Sorry if it'sa duplicate... Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: rcurry@handel.jlc.net (Curry)Subject: RE: NodesX-Mailer: Most of the matched strip rods I have madehave a less pronounced jump, and about half of them havea barely noticeable jump. Perhaps my remarks were applicable to the larger makers because theyhad more cane to pick through in order to select just the strips they wanted. I imagine most of the list members don't have piles of beveled strips. Icould be wrong, of course. Of course there is the whole matter of does a jump in the blankreally affect the action of the completed rod that much, andmaybe we as bamboo rod makers are paying too muchattention to something that doesn't matter in the completed rod. Good question. We need an answer to this. I hate to watch a friendtrashing glued up butts and tips because of a slight hop when he rolls it under pressure. He feels that the "truth will out"; eventually the rod will develop a set on the jump or its performance will diminish before itstime. What's the list answer? Reedrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 20 20:08:25 1996 Subject: Re: Mike's Lathe Mike: Several years ago, my father purchased several used but high qualitywoodworking machines at a firm in St. Louis called Macdonald Machinery. Itwas on Broadway near the river. I personally have wandered through theirdisplays and was impressed with the selection and quality of the usedequipment. The price was attractive as well. Might check it out - theymaystill be there!! Ken Rongey from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Jan 21 10:59:00 1996 Subject: Machined strips There are basicly two methods of machining strips - the first is abeveler. A beveler is constructed with two jewelers saw blades which aresetat 60 deg angle - the strips of bamboo are planed to an exact thicknessandare run through the beveler in such a manner that the saws are cuttingintothe enamel side - the pith side is riding on a post that moves up and down-the post is following a pattern strip which is pulled in unison along withthe new strip. The second method is a mill - here there is a overhead 60 deg cutter - and the strips are set on a pattern bar on the bed of the mill - they aresecured to the pattern with a small pin to hold them into alignment - itusually takes several passes to cut to the final dimensions - of the twomethods the mill is the hardest to set up requiring several test strips andmuch shimming of the pattern bar.At least with the mill that I'm familiar with - once it is set it onlymakes sense to run many of that strip. and because of the better detail ofthe rods made today a color code is used to match like and dislike strips. To get the strips to match several pieces of bamboo are used - mostpreembargo was imported in precut lengths of 48" - only a small portion werethefull length pieces and then only 8' - 9' . The 12' that we are used to didn'tarrive until after the embargo. from past experience on a first rod out the hand planer can usually beatthe machine - its on the rods past that where the hand planer will suffer -But how many of us want 16 - 20 of the same rod.Especially with the mill the strips need to be arrow straight - so manyhours are spent flattening and straightening strips. A method of heattreating and straightening that was developed is to heat each strip 7 min@375 and then use a 48" sheet metal break - by placing a stop block of 1/4"metal on the bed of the brake one can flatten and straighten a strip every31/2 min.To automate a belever you can link the process to indexers and steppermotors and drive the whole process with a PC using a Boullion link. Thepartsand black box cost about $2000.00. Then the just spool your tapers on aharddrive and touch the magic buttons and the beveler spits out the new stripsata rate of one every couple of minutes.The real question in all this is how serious do you want rod making tobecome - for my self I want to keep it as a hobby - something that I canescape to and not from Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 22 10:18:18 1996 Subject: ferrules I've started to make my one ferrules (CuZn + NS)on my lathebut haven't got the right measurments for them.does anyone have expirience with fabrication of ferrulesor perhaps technical drawings.Any advice would be very welcome. HansNetherlands ps. (sorry for my bad english writting) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 22 10:18:36 1996 Subject: Re: Machined strips To get the strips to match several pieces of bamboo are used - mostpreembargo was imported in precut lengths of 48" - only a small portionwere thefull length pieces and then only 8' - 9' . The 12' that we are used to didn'tarrive until after the embargo. I guess that's another reason why the machine-assisted rodmakers usedstrips from different culms in a rod; for a beveler it was necessary to cut theraw strips 5/8" wide for the butts, and, of course, 3 piece rods were more common. No way a single culm could cost-effectively (cane was cheap,labor expensive) provide a rod. from past experience on a first rod out the hand planer can usuallybeatthe machine - its on the rods past that where the hand planer will suffer- John Henry was a hand planer? Actually, I think it would be a close call against a beveler. Bevelers are much less likely to eat strips than mills, I think. I have seen a beveler turn out 40" strips in 30 seconds; cranking them through by hand. On the other hand, another list-member I knowfavours mills and gives some solid reasons. But how many of us want 16 - 20 of the same rod. Actually, the real advantage of a beveler might be ability to retool very quickly. A single turn of a crank and you are producing a totally differentrod. Reedrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 22 17:35:58 1996 Subject: One Rod, One Culm I checked my library and sure enough in Martin Keane's "Classic FlyRodsand Rodmakers on page 151 of my edition it goes into Dickerson usingstrips frommultiple culms. This is based upon Martin's interview with him. The Grayarticle was a photo essay. Pictures not words, but the pictures speak forthemselves. Noway are they keeping track of a culm. Wayne preaches one culm, one rod for a different purpose. A culm ischeap -$20. Time and effort is expensive. Some people try to get 2 even 3 rods from a culm, figuring they are saving money. Penny wise, pound foolish. This myth also brings forth another point. What is dogma and whatisn't.Are we bound to certain unspoken rules, or can we try and stretch theenvelope ofunderstanding of what makes a good rod and how you must make it. Damnthe conventialwisdom and full speed ahead try neat and new stuff. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 23 10:27:42 1996 Subject: RE:One Rod One Culm Okay, now that we determined that all the strips in arod don't need to be from the same culm, I've gotanother question. Should the butt strips come from the base of the culm,and the tip strips from the top half of the culm. I regularly get 24 strips from a whole diameter of aculm. That's great for two tips each for two rods, butit leaves me with 12 strips left over from the bottomhalf of the culm. When I have had a bad tip strip, Ihave replaced it with one of the bottom half strips,figuring that since the bottom half is supposed tohave denser power fibers, then I won't be hurtinganything by putting in a supposedly stronger stripinto the tip section. But, I have noticed that when I make a lighter weightrod, even the base strips would still be in the powerfiber layer with no pith if I took them from the top halfof the culm. So, can base strips come from the tophalf of a culm? Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 23 12:08:29 1996 Subject: RE: One Culm One Rod But, I have noticed that when I make a lighter weightrod, even the base strips would still be in the powerfiber layer with no pith if I took them from the top halfof the culm. So, can base strips come from the tophalf of a culm? Sorry, what I meant to say was:Can butt strips come from the top half of a culm.^^^ Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 23 13:07:51 1996 Subject: Why only 24? If you are looking to maximize the amount of usuable bamboo split yourculm in a way to yield 32 strips that way you can make 2 complete rodswithextra in reserve. The problem I have and have seen with using strips from differentculmsis long term straightness. Do this simple test - on a sheet of paper drawtwodiagonal lines - then roll the paper so that the lines are 180 deg (oppositeeach other) - this illustrates how using strips from the same culm workswith2 - 2 - 2 staggering. If the diagonal lines represented forces they wouldneutralize each other as shown in rolling up the sheet of paper. Becauseeachculm of bamboo is unique a strip from one culm may or may not balancewithanother from a different culm -If your are wanting to blend strips I would think that you might atleast want to do it in pairs. Perhaps a couple of flamed strip pairsaccentedwith a blone pair.I might have a different perspective on matters if I were purchasingbamboo in the small quanties and paying a greater cost per culm - Formyselfthe cost of sandpaper used in making a rod is almost the same as thebamboocost. Perhaps its my years of running a business and having to make harddecisions about the cost of labor to recover a set cost of materials -Cattanach is Scottish deriving from the clan Chattan - some where I'mafraidI've at least lost my connection to the thrift part. But what's nice - eachof us can make our own decisions about how to use materials - other willonlyact as the conscience.We will be in Somerset NJ this weekend - If any of you can stop by tosay hello Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 23 14:42:21 1996 Subject: green strips I noticed that some of the strips in the butt of my rod are a little green compared to others. The culm was a bit green on one side. Can I sun bleach it in some way after it is finished, or should I do it now before I go on (splices finished and glued, everything heat treated, but no planing yet). What will be the effect on the rod? If it is only cosmetic I wont be so worried. Will it be noticable after I've taken off all the rind?Thanks in advance.Mauro from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 23 15:08:21 1996 Subject: RE: Why only 24? ----------From: owner-rodmakers Subject: Why only 24?Date: Tuesday, January 23, 1996 1:29PM If you are looking to maximize the amount of usuable bamboo splityourculm in a way to yield 32 strips that way you can make 2 complete rodswithextra in reserve. When I split the culm into 24 I get some strips that are very thin, along withsome that are obviously wider than I need, but almost always I can usethem all (some are rejected due to other reasons). I have never tried32, but it would seem to me that there would be a number of them thatwould end up being too thin to work with. You have emboldened me to try though. I envision the best way toattempt it is to just split everything in half - 2, 4, 8, 16, 32. I'll let everyoneknow how it turns out. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 23 16:31:09 1996 Subject: RE: One Rod One Culm -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- DarrylI believe you will find the butt end of a culm will be stronger pergiven thickness than the top, the power fibers are much denser in thebutt section. If you replace a strip in a tip section with one from abutt piece you will find yourself with one strip that has a greatermoment, that is to say it will be stiffer than the other 5. This shouldcause a pronounced hop in the section when you spine the blank.On alarge rod such as a Salmon rod this may not be of to great of a problem,however on a small 6-7' 3wt the effect will be more dramatic.If you were to make 2 tips, same taper, from the same culm and usethe butt end for one tip, the top end for another. You will see quitea difference graphing both sections under the same load---given thatyou have high quality cane to start with. Regards Jed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 23 18:08:56 1996 Subject: more thoughts A follow up to the idea of splitting to 32 pieces is this - it mayrequire a set of shallower wooden forms - I altered to using the method couple of special rods - the rod I'm making for Bill Ballan will have 4 tipsall matched or "mirrored" - that represents 24 strips - so for a margin oferror I split to 32. Just a word about Bill - two weeks ago he apparently had a mild heartattack - in talking with Mark at his shop Bill was home in three days so itcouldn't have been too bad - I hope to see Bill this weekend and express myconcern about the warrrenty on my fly reels. For those that aren't awareofit - Lifetime warrenty - Yours or His Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 23 20:04:42 1996 Subject: Herters Manual Just in case anyone needs a Herters Rod Building manual I know of one thatwill soon be available. Please reply via direct e-mail. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 23 20:04:53 1996 Subject: Lathe As if we haven't beat the subject of a lathe to death I have one more shortthing to add. I just got a Grizzly catalog in the mail and while glancing through itnoticed a lathe for $795. This looks like a lathe they used to offer forquite a bit more. The price is very reasonable considering it has a coupleof chucks with it. It may be one of those products that is too good to betrue but it would be worth investigating. I still think a used lathe wouldbe better but... Jack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 23 23:58:11 1996 Subject: Rod wrapping jig/tool Does anyone have plans for a rod wrapping jig/tool? I would like to make rather than buy one. Also, has anyone tried other types of bamboo than tolkin cane. A botanist I know has told me about many types og bamboo that grows in out nothern climates. Some has survives 20+ below zero. Unfortunatrly it is too thin.1" diameter but 20 feelt tall. Some is colored maroon of verigated gren andoff white. Anyone have experience with this?ThanksRich Jezioro *_________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @ / /|| __________________________________________________|| /\ / \ > > > from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 24 10:53:27 1996 Subject: glue Hi all.I had a problem with one of my splices last night.On one of the butt strips, While planing the first angle, one of my splices failed. Has anyone ever had this happen or know why it may have happened? I used URAC 185, and I followed the instructions very carefully.I mixed 100 parts resin to 15 parts hardener by volume.I mixed for about 3 min. straight. Then applied to the strips, and waited 10 min before clamping. Since some of the strips were clampled with string and others with spring clamps I don't know which I used for this one. All the other splices seem fine though. Should I redo all the splices to be safe? I hope not!Thanks.mauro. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 24 10:53:27 1996 Subject: glue Hi all.I had a problem with one of my splices last night.On one of the butt strips, While planing the first angle, one of my splices failed. Has anyone ever had this happen or know why it may have happened? I used URAC 185, and I followed the instructions very carefully.I mixed 100 parts resin to 15 parts hardener by volume.I mixed for about 3 min. straight. Then applied to the strips, and waited 10 min before clamping. Since some of the strips were clampled with string and others with spring clamps I don't know which I used for this one. All the other splices seem fine though. Should I redo all the splices to be safe? I hope not!Thanks.mauro. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 24 11:12:14 1996 Subject: Re: glue Mauro writes of some problems with his glued splices... Sorry I don't have any answers for you, but I would like to take thisopportunity to forward to the list, John Zimny's recent Planing Formarticle on adhesives. John sent me the article for inclusion in thearchives. I asked John if he would mind if I forwarded it to the list Thanks John! And, a great job on the article... Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- ADHESIVES UPDATE Urea Formaldehyde glue came into use just prior to World War II in theaircraft industry. It was used to laminate wood structures and fabricsin air-frame applications. water resistance, and adequate open time, so that straightening can bedone before drying. UF's are available in a variety of formulationswhich possess flexibility in storage, working temperature, drying andopen times. There are at least two makers of urea formaldehyde resins and catalystsin the United States: Borden and American Cyanamid. Borden owns theCasco Resin trademark and American Cyanamid owns the "Urac" apellation.The following are addresses where each of these products may beobtained. Borden of Canada can provide dealers with "CR5H" . As far asI can determine, CR5H is L-100 resin. Casco Resin Custom-Pak Adhesives 11047 Lambs Lane Newark Ohio 43055 URAC Nelson Paint Company P.O. Box 907 Iron Mountain MI Mr. Kent Pitcher, of Custom-Pak Adhesives has been most generous onsharing his expertise in adhesives and catalysts for this article. Hehas formulated a mixture using Borden's L-100 resin. This mixture isfairly thin, yet it delivers more than enough resin to create a maximumstrength bond. Borden recommends a 40% delivery of resin to the joint is 65% resins, it is obvious that there is a considerable leeway in thecatalyst- resin mixture. Actually, S-120 and S-125(summer) catalysts canvary from 10% to 24% of a mixture and still deliver enough resin to thejoint to insure a maximum strength bond at the edge. This fact allowsthe user to vary both viscosity and reactivity. Up to 24% of mixture(catalyst), the cross linking process procedes faster as more catalystis used. At contrations of hardener of more than 24%, the reactionslows down because of a buffering effect. Here is a bench-mark mixturethat works. This can be varied according the needs of open time,temperature and viscosity. 100 pts resin 20 pts catalyst(S-100 or S-120) 10 pts Water 7.5 pts GF-10 wetting solutionYou may ask what GF-10 is. It is a wetting agent that makes the mixtureflow better.This already exists as a percentage of the liquid resin (especially URAC). However, up to 10% more is allowable. Five to eightpercent is considered optimal. Urea formaldehyde also comes in dry form. It has a much longer shelflife than the liquid form. But, in all other respects, it is the sameas the L-100 resin. It just lacks the water. Borden's version is calledCascamite. Urea formaldehyde mixtures cure completely in about four days attemperatures between 75 and 90 F. They can be heat cured very rapidly.I suggest you do some experimenting here. Both American Cyanamid andBorden will provide the user with information on heat curing. In anycase, I always allow my glued sections to rest a while after gluing.I'm not sure that one needs to do this- I do it. OTHER ADHESIVES Resorcinol is probably the best glue ever formulated for cane. It isthe strongest, most craze resistant, and most water-proof of the non-epoxy formulations. Its big draw-back is its purple color. But, thanksto Hoagy Carmichael, that problem can be mitigated. Check out page 94of the latest edition of "the Book". This should work on UF glues.Especially, if on wanted white URAC. Casein glues are protein based glues of great strength and pretty-goodwater resistance. Anyone who has tried to remove milk paint shouldknow. However, its craze resistance and shear resistance is not sogood. Its open time is short too. But, a lot of old timers used it andit worked. Hide glues are strong. As long as the joints are dry, no problem. Justthink about a 250 year old violin built for gut strings holding itselftogether ( strung now with steel) with hide glue. And, if you've everwitnessed the string players at an outdoor concert run like hell whenit starts to rain, you'll know why hide glue might not be so good forfly rods. Acid catalyzed PVA's are being used by at least one will-known rodmaker to very good effect. However, make sure that you get one thatcross-links at an 85% ,of more, rate. Without a high rate ofpolymerization, you may experience joint- creep ( movement under theclamps) or you might find that you had a relatively low waterresistance. The good thing about this class of adhesives is that, giventhe correct formulation, the bond is thermoplastic. The glue softenswhen heat is applied. Rod sections bonded with this class of gluesshould be easy to straighten. Much more so than other glues. Melamine bonds to slick surfaces- like other melimines. In otherrespects, it seems to be a good prospect for cane makers. I know thatthere is an old Leonard formula kicking around for a ureaformaldehyde/melamine mixture. I think I could exhume it if anyone wereinterested. And lastly, there are the Epoxy resins. They exist in such a plethoraof brands and formulations that it is nearly impossible to comment ofall but a few that might available to the rodmaker. Epoxy offers themaker great strength and absolute resistance to moisture. But, you hadbetter have your rod straight before you allow the resin to cure. Epoxyglued rods seem to have a greater resistance to heat straightening thanany other rod that I know. In fact, it is quite possible to applyenough heat while straightening to produce a catastrophic failure ofthe glued seams. All that being said, if you're good with your binderand can straighten before the glue cures, epoxy resins offer thestrongest and most durable bond available. Of late, Bill Fink has beenusing a blend of epoxies that respond well to heat straightening afterthe curing process has occurred. Bill has been using a 50/50 mix ofShell Epon 829 and Versimid V-40 to very good effect. I suggest thatyou make contact with Bill if you wish to pursue this possibility END J. C. Zimny from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 09:09:35 1996 Subject: Re: glue Mauro writes of some problems with his glued splices... Sorry I don't have any answers for you, but I would like to take thisopportunity to forward to the list, John Zimny's recent Planing Formarticle on adhesives. John sent me the article for inclusion in thearchives. I asked John if he would mind if I forwarded it to the list Thanks John! And, a great job on the article... Could I put a link to this in the FAQ? Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 09:09:59 1996 Subject: Re: Herters Manual Jack, I would be interested in the Herters Rod Building Manual. Please let meknow if it is still available and how I can get it. Thanks for theinformation. Sincerely, Todd Hopkins from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 09:10:07 1996 Subject: Pulley wheels for binder Here is the info from Harold Ball on the wheels he found for the rod binder. Grande Junquetion LTDin Virginia Beach, Virginia. They wereabout $2 each and measure about 6" by about3/8ths. Their number is 804-498-0404. Hope this helps those of you who don't have a lathe to build a binder.This info, as well as info on where to get the round polycord belting todrive the binder has been put into the link in the FAQ. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 09:10:10 1996 Subject: Rod binder Pulley idea I tried to post this several days ago but it was returned. Perhaps itis still of use: Try a brass blind flange as stock; since you have a lathe, youcan easily form the flanges and bore the center hole. Mine worked very well. You could also use a screwed flange if youwant a large shaft but you need to attach the pipe first andthen turn as centers are not that accurate. 1/2" 150# Flange is 3 1/2" OD x 7/16" thk.1" 150# Flange is 4 5/8" OD x 9/16" thk.1 1/2" 150# Flange is 5" OD x 11/16" thk.2" 150# Flange is 6" OD x 3/4" thk. Available at plumbing supply houses or look for places thatreclaim/re-sell used plumbing. ** Everyone on the information super-highway is more than 50 miles fromhome **Jack Tuckerjart@epix.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 09:10:25 1996 Subject: Lathe More grist for the mill, er make that for the lathe: Following may be of some help in Micro Lathe discussion. Today I neededto make a die stock (holder) as I special ordered a die from England and,wouldn't you know, it arrived as a 13/16" OD. I've got every other sizebut. So I scouted around the shop, found a 3/4" nut to make into stock. Used Micro Lathe. Took 45 minutes to bore out threads to 13/16" diameterx3/8" dp., face back to 1/4" depth, re-mount and drill and tap two #8-32holes for set screws, and 2- 5/16-18 for handles. Larger lathe probablywould have taken me 15, 20 minutes instead. To me, the extra time doesn'tmatter anymore. If I was doing it for a living it stinks, but for a hobby. ** Everyone on the information super-highway is more than 50 miles fromhome **Jack Tuckerjart@epix.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 09:10:53 1996 Subject: Stuart Kirkfield's book "The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod" I can across a copy Stuart Kirkfield's book "The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod" , AMaster's Secrets of Restoration and Repair. I already have a copy. If anyoneis interested contact me by E-Mail. The price is $40.00. JonRC@aol.com Jonathan ClarkeJonRC@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 11:04:17 1996 Subject: prices I haven't seen much discusion of prices in the group, so I will ask this very open ended question:How much does a bamboo rod cost?I looked at the values in one of the links on Bruce's hope page, and most rods are below $500. What are today's prices like? I have not seen a hand made rod for sale yet. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 11:15:49 1996 Subject: Re: prices I have a 1994 price guide from Douglas Kulick (Kane Klassics) thatlists prices of his handmade rods from (US$) $ 650.00 to $ 1650.00. I suspect that the prices have increased since then. -Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 11:26:52 1996 Subject: Re: glue -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Subject: glue Hi all.I had a problem with one of my splices last night.On one of the butt strips, While planing the first angle, one of my splices failed. Has anyone ever had this happen or know why it may havehappened? I used URAC 185, and I followed the instructions verycarefully.I mixed 100 parts resin to 15 parts hardener by volume.I mixed for about 3 min. straight. Then applied to the strips, andwaited 10 min before clamping. Since some of the strips were clampled with string and others with spring clamps I don't know which I used for thisone. All the other splices seem fine though. Should I redo all the splices to be safe? I hope not!Thanks.mauro. MauroIf your other joints came out well, and they were gluedwith the same batch I suspect one or a combination of the following. Starved joint===to much clamping pressureContamination=== dirt, oily fingers etc. from you description of different clamping proceedures Iwould lookstrongly at that first. Then to the contamination.It has or will happen to all of us some time or other,trick is to learn from Test your other splices well Jed -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 15:00:29 1996 Subject: Re: prices On Thu, 25 Jan 1996, Jerry Ballard wrote: I have a 1994 price guide from Douglas Kulick (Kane Klassics) thatlists prices of his handmade rods from (US$) $ 650.00 to $ 1650.00. I suspect that the prices have increased since then. -Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil When I looked at the prices given in one of the links from Bruce's home page, the prices were only ~400. Why so cheap for excelent condition old rods? Wouldn't they be more expensive since they can't be replaced?Mauro. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 17:49:02 1996 Subject: Web of a thousand hits! Well, the FAQ had it's 1000th hit yesterday. Amazing since it was onlystarted in Late October. Thanks for making it such a popular page!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 18:13:43 1996 Subject: Re: One Rod - One Culm Not to belabor a point but because I found this information so valuable Iam forwarding to the list the remarks of a fellow list member and all around good guy who wishes to remain anonymous. "I will relate to you all the procedure a famous rod co used formatching up cane from different culms. I hope this may help in someway,in any event it is interesting.After sorting through the culms and discarding those with obviousdefects as worm holes, bad leaf nodes, and especially straightness ofculm, he culms were cut in two 6' pieces. The ends were color coded, samecolor for both sections from same culm. We then tried to match pairs bydiameter, node pattern spacing, and weight. With the 1st priority beingweight of culms. Again take into consideration the fact that we aredealing with a large shipment of cane all of appx the same age,dryness, and diameter.The weight has a lot to do with selection and like properties ofdifferent culms, given that they are very close in diameter the heavierones will have better overallqualities= more dense power fibers vs pith. Then the culms were browned wood was worked up ready to bevel ( nodes etc. ).All the while keepingselected pairs/groups together.Various bending etc. was done along theway checking for proper matching.Then stagger the nodes, and beveled.The main key to all this is weight. Many culms I have delt withwere much lighter than others from the same shiptment, cut twodifferent wt. culms and file the ends you will see a real difference inthe ammount of power fibers, with the lighter being less desireable.If you as a home builder are lucky enough to be able to select yourculms go for the heaviest ones you can find from the group, you won'tbe sorry. " Friend of anon. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 19:34:27 1996 Subject: Re: Stuart Kirkfield's book "The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod" Yes I am interested. If you pick it up, let me know how much to add for postage. YhanksRich Jeziororichjez@wwa.com *_________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @ / /|| __________________________________________________|| /\ / \ > > > from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Jan 25 19:46:48 1996 Subject: Re: Stuart Kirkfield's book "The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod" Jonathan, I'd love to get the book if you still have access to it, justtell me where to send the check (and for how much!) Thanks. Dave Makel ddm7t@virginia.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 26 00:59:56 1996 Subject: Culm Splitting With respect to the question of splitting to 24 or 32 strips, actually onecan split to 28 (or any number within reason for that matter). Take thecaseof half of a culm tip section, a semi-circle of approx. 3" to be split into14 strips to insure 12 good ones. 1. First, a measuring 'tape' should be made. A folded piece of maskingtapewill do.Three inches are marked out and divided into 14 equal divisions ofapprox .21" ea on the tape.2. The culm half is marked and split at the point for a 6-strip : 8-stripdivision.3. The 6-strip piece is marked and split at the 2-strip : 4-strip division.4. All remaining splits are at halves on out to 14 individual pieces. Admittedly, I suspect not all culms will split well enough to do that. Andsplitting atother than at halves seems a bit dicey or at least intimidating. On thereally importantsplits, I mark the culm at each node and at midpoints and sometimes 2placesbetween the nodes. That decreases the length of opportunity for the splittorun out to one side or the other after punching through. However, when all is said and done, I am much more comfortable splittingto1/4" and try not get myself into tighter needs. Sometimes, though, it isunavoidable, and also when splitting for an exaggerated swelled butt, a.30"or so split may be decided upon which calls into play the above mentionedprocedure, which works. RT from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 26 05:51:05 1996 Subject: Herters Rod Making Manual I have recently aquired a Herters Rod Building Manual that is in very niceshape. I would like to share the Manual with others if they would bewilling to share the cost of the manual. The manual cost $100 so if wecould get 10 interested people involved the cost per person would be veryinexpensive when compared with the going price of the manual. If anyonewould care to participate in an arrangement like the one I have justdescribed please reply. I hope we can all enjoy this book. Thanks Jack from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 26 14:31:22 1996 Subject: Glue Failures -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- It comes to mind that UF glue failures may be due to the use of a dulliron in the cutting of the cane. A dull blade would tend to burnish thefibers. Then, when a glue containing water was applied to the surface,the fibers would tend to swell. Also, the burnished surface may notallow the glue to properly "wet" the surface. Any of these conditionscould lead to glue failure. I would finish the surface with a fine filewhile it lay in the splicing fixture. This would give the bondingsurfaces some "tooth". Also, make sure your irons are exquisitelysharp. Thus the fibers will cleanly cut rather than burnished. Lastly, a lot can be learned with a 10X glass. With such a glass, onecan often discern much about surfaces and edges. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Jan 26 15:46:11 1996 Subject: Re: Glue Failures Thanks for the advice.I don't think this is what I did wrong however.My suspicion is that I starved the joint by applying too much pressure.This brings me to something else I have been thinking about. If too much pressure gives you a starved joint, then there must be a minimum glue line thickness. If this is more than 0.001, then shouldn't I take this into account in my planing? I read a book a long time ago (can't recall the name), which explained how you should mic the rod after gluing and bring the tapers down to the specified size after gluing. This cuts into power fibers, so the planing must be good before gluing, but neither Wayne or Hoagy write of this. Wayne mentions adding 0.001" before gluing, but not micing after gluing. Does anyone on here mic after gluing? On Fri, 26 Jan 1996, MR JOHN C ZIMNY wrote: -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- It comes to mind that UF glue failures may be due to the use of a dulliron in the cutting of the cane. A dull blade would tend to burnish thefibers. Then, when a glue containing water was applied to the surface,the fibers would tend to swell. Also, the burnished surface may notallow the glue to properly "wet" the surface. Any of these conditionscould lead to glue failure. I would finish the surface with a fine filewhile it lay in the splicing fixture. This would give the bondingsurfaces some "tooth". Also, make sure your irons are exquisitelysharp. Thus the fibers will cleanly cut rather than burnished. Lastly, a lot can be learned with a 10X glass. With such a glass, onecan often discern much about surfaces and edges. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 27 08:18:58 1996 Subject: 3pc vs 2pc A discussion for the list:Is a 3pc rod inherently sturdier than a 2pc of a similar taper? A rodbuilding friend and I were mulling this over the other night. He said that he had read in an old F.E.Thomas catalog that Thomas recommended3pc who were experienced". Keane says something similar in his book. What say? Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 27 13:51:27 1996 Subject: Windows Leader Maker program OK, I finished up the Leader making program for Windows last night. It'slocated in the ftp site as leader.exe . You MAY need the visual basicruntime DLL to use it. I'm not sure if that is standard with the windowsOS. If you need the DLL, just let me know and I'll post it too. In any case, take a look at it and let me know if/how it works for you.The leader formula seems to work quite well for me. Any suggestions for improving the program will be happily received. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 27 17:39:47 1996 Subject: Slow Action Taper wanted DOes anyone have any Hawes tapers? I'm unfamiliar with his rods but Ihear he had medium slow action tapers. I'm looking for an 8' 3pc slow action.You know, something that lets you relax and watch the water. I once had the sort of rod described by Geirach in "The Fly ROd"; it was a 7'6" 3pc 3wt. with an action so slow that you could start your backcast, go home for a liesurely lunch; when you returned to the river you could start the forward cast. I'm looking for something a little more spritely thanthat. THe old slow action rods had several advantages; wide loops were easy,they were much lighter than the stiffer "dry fly" models, and they seemed to do all the work for you. Of course, if you pushed them they collapsed. Any help appreciated. Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Jan 27 23:56:03 1996 Subject: Re: Nodes Reference production rods and the diversity of culms from which theirstripscame. I have a cy of the Spring 1992 issue of "The Clasic Chronicle" whichfeatures a 2-pg spread of the Payne Rod Co. of 1935, and a young JimPayne.One picture shows a stack of a couple hundred or so straightened stripslaidout in a lattice pattern - # - ( looking down). Oddly, the captionsays they are stacked thusly "to keep strain at a minimum". That picturedosn't suggest careful matching of strips from the same culm, and lookwhatprice Payne rods now fetch. Another point concerns a picture of Mr. Payneselecting a culm that shows the ends of three stacks of two to threehundredculms, total. That picture is of what looks like relatively average culmsbytoday's standards, which to me dispells another myth, that of the verylargeculms that at that time were supposed to be the norm. One Paynecollector Iobserved giving a talk on his collection of bamboo made a semicircle withhisdigits with at least a 4" diameter while explaining the size ofyesteryear'scane used by the better builders back then compare to today's cane. However,Mr. Demarest in a talk given at the Harrisburg rod builders gathering puton asever, if not better. He also stated that the production houses bought canemeasuring 3/4" to 1-1/4" which might explain where the exaggeration ofthelarger sizes came from. The large culms pictured in the book about Mr.Garrison may be because he lived in NYC and could pick and choose hisculmsat the warehouse, as mentioned in the book. I guess what all this isleadingto is that to me, even an average culm is suitable, though I will still haveall strips in a rod from the same culm.R Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Jan 28 14:11:15 1996 Subject: Re: glue Mauro After traveling this week I saw your mail on splice failure.I thought a late answer is better than none. You got a lot of goodadvice, but there are a few more things that I would like to passalong to you. - You mixed by volume. After talking to John Zimny, I gota gram scale and do all measuring by weight. You can be a lot moreaccurate and get consistant results that way. - No mention of using a wetting agent. This is the problemI have found in the tests that I have made. Bamboo is a dense materialand a lot of glues need help to penetrate inorder to make a good bond. - Mixing time. You may want to extend that time from 3 to 10minutes just to make sure. - Clamping preasure. Need it with Urac. The string bound teststrips I did not hold up at all. I don't think you can starve the jointusing spring clamps. I found the problem was lack of penetration by theglue - back to wetting agents and set-on time prior to clamping. I have just finished gluing up two whole tip sections usingurea formaldehyde (12 strips x 3 splices per). I did not get a gluefailure. I did get some strip failures. I flex my strips (ala Garrison)to make sure there isn't any hidden weaknesses. There were two - one hada small vertical split I hadn't seen before, and the other had a lateralweakness. For you I wouldn't worry about reglueing if you can readilyflex the strips. Now for the good part. You can just resplice the failedjoint (replane and clamp), or make a new strip and not worry about havingto heat treat a single strip. I am also now recommend that you slightly offset the left andright splice sections. You should only offset by approx 2". This will prevent the splices comming together at the same point. This is whereI have my failure at. I think this is a once of prevention. You don'tneed to do any drastic staggering. I have been doing some more glue test strips. The interestingresult is that with hide glue I can get a wonderful splice joint glue linethatis damn near invisible from the start and that is very strong. If you want to try it - buy the powder stuff ($6 - $8 per lb.) Mix with waterand heat. For my test strips you can use a foil container or an oldtuna fish can to heat. For heat - use your hot air gun. If you like the results - then you can buy a regular glue pot. But the resultsare very good. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Jan 28 14:22:11 1996 Subject: Re: Rod wrapping jig/tool Rich I made my own but had / have no plans. I copied a picture ofone I saw. Real easy to make with basic wood working tools. The one critical part is the tread tensioner. Don't go with one of those you see that you put the tread thru and squeezes it withtwo concave metal disc's. This will fray the thread - hense badwraps. I used a carriage bolt, washers, a small spring, and wingnut to tension the thread bobin itself and don't let anythingtouch the thread. Makes a big difference. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Jan 28 23:01:00 1996 Subject: Version 2.0 of the leader program OK, I made some changes in the Leader Calculator program today and Ithinkit is an improvement. More "Windows" like and all that. If you want tosee the new version, it has replaced the one in the sirronald.wustl.edu ftpsite. The name is still Leader.EXE Let me know how you like it, and any improvements you can think of. Thanks! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 29 08:37:20 1996 Subject: Re: Version 2.0 of the leader program Bruce,would it be possible to put in Milimeters for the EuropeanFlysfishermen?? Hans OK, I made some changes in the Leader Calculator program today and Ithinkit is an improvement. More "Windows" like and all that. If you want tosee the new version, it has replaced the one in the sirronald.wustl.edu ftpsite. The name is still Leader.EXE Let me know how you like it, and any improvements you can think of. Thanks! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 29 09:09:27 1996 Subject: Re: Version 2.0 of the leader program Bruce,would it be possible to put in Milimeters for the EuropeanFlysfishermen?? Hans Yes, that is something I am planning for the next version. I should haveit ready in a few days. What are the standard leader sizes in Milimeters? Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 29 09:20:03 1996 Subject: Re: glue On Sun, 28 Jan 1996 cbogart@ibm.net wrote: Mauro I have been doing some more glue test strips. The interestingresult is that with hide glue I can get a wonderful splice joint glue linethatis damn near invisible from the start and that is very strong. If you want to try it - buy the powder stuff ($6 - $8 per lb.) Mix with waterand heat. For my test strips you can use a foil container or an oldtuna fish can to heat. For heat - use your hot air gun. If you like the results - then you can buy a regular glue pot. But the resultsare very good. Chris Thanks to all who answered my question. It has been very useful. There is no way I would have ever started building a nodeless rod without the help of this group. Thanks to all. I figured out what was wrong with my splices.It wasn't my splices. It was my planing. In finding the first angle, I used a 60 deg. groove instead of a 30 - 50 ( or whatever). What this did, is put too much pressure on splices which are at the very wide bottom part. The only splices I have fail (2 total) were the very bottom one on my butt strips. I realized this after the second failure. I was just pushing too hard with the plane, and the strip had no support from underneath, which caused a sharp bend in the bamboo. After 20 passeswith the plane, or so, the splice failed. I made a first form now, and I don't think I'll have any problems.The URAC seems to wet the bamboo very well. It spreads well, and doesn't bead at all. So I don't think I need a wetting agent. Zimmy's article says that urac has wetting agents in higher amount's than borden's equivalent.All my tip slices are just perfect, and almost all of my butt splices are good too. I know they are there, and after sanding off the enamel, I have a lot of trouble finding them.I will never make a rod with nodes in it. I have already been able to benefit from having all the bamboo heat treated together (new splices), and not one chipped node! :) Mauro. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 29 10:21:30 1996 Subject: Re: Version 2.0 of the leader program I think they are the same as your sizesjust recalculate inches --> mm.hans. Yes, that is something I am planning for the next version. I should haveit ready in a few days. What are the standard leader sizes inMilimeters? Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 29 12:14:17 1996 Subject: VBRUN300.DLL to go with the leader program The vbrun300.dll is now on the sirronald.wustl.edu ftp site. You may needit to use the leader calculator program. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 29 15:04:14 1996 Subject: Re: Version 2.0 of the leader program I think they are the same as your sizesjust recalculate inches --> mm.hans. I did some conversions from inches to mm. Do .457 .406 .356 .305.254 mm look right to you? How many decimal places do you use for thetippet sizes? Do you refer to the leader length in meters, or centimeters? Thanks for your help. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Jan 29 18:41:00 1996 Subject: New Books Thefirst by George Maurer is just out - from the few minutes I had to look atitthis weekend in Somerset - it is an out line of the different steps ofmakinga rod ( somewhat of an extensive check list) - the book is available fromGeorge and he told me it cost $35.00The other I know little about except that the title is The Lovely Reedand is authored by Jack Howell from New Mexico - Pruett is the publisher- Ihave known that Jack was working on the project for the past year or so -Imet with Jack one very cold day in Grand Rapids when he was auditioningforour local symphony So there will be a couple more books for the rod making library Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Jan 30 23:47:23 1996 Subject: Loose Ferrules (metal/metal) Having rebuilt a few cane rods I have run into the problem oftrying to tighten up the fit of ferrules which have workedthemselves loose through years of use. Removing and regluingis pretty straight forward (well, actually the pins, whenpresent, can be a little tricky) but tightening up themetal/metal fit has proven to be another story. I've had someluck using a collet closer with the proper size collet and somesoft copper sheet to protect the ferrules, but I don't have awide enough range of collets for this to solve all of myproblems without added expense (and I HATE to spend money!)Recently I tried a new technique and had very good success, andI though it might help some of you whose ferrules click. First I take a block of lead about the thickness of the hollowferrule section (or so) and about four inches long by about twoto three inches wide. Actually I happen to have a lead moldthis size (1"x2"x4") which is where these dimensions camefrom...but I digress. This block isthen cut along the longaxis leaving two 1"x1"x4" blocks. These are c-clamped backtogether along the plane of the cut and two or three holes aredrilled perpendicular to the 2"x4" face centered on the planeof the cut. The dimension of the holes is very slightlysmaller than the O.D. of the female ferrule. Nest, the c-clamp is removed and the blocks are pulled apartand then wrapped around the hollow pard of the loose femaleferrule, pushing the soft blocks together so that the welt ofthe ferrule barely protrudes from one side of one of thedrilled holes. The blocks (and the encased loose ferrule) arethen put into a bench vice with the ferrule centered in thejaws. At this point the vice is tightened up (carefully),effectively putting pressure all the way around the hollowlength of the ferrule. The pressure can be applied andreleased for frequent checks with the male ferrule until thefit is acceptable. The other holes can be used to put pressureat different angles to the ferrule, insuring a nice round finalproduct. I've used this technique now on two sets of ferrules, onestainless, one nickel silver, and have had good results in bothcases. No marring of the ferrules with a nice "pop" fit.There may be other methods of accomplishing this tightening,but this one appears to be effective and cheap. Dave Makel from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Jan 31 09:03:43 1996 Subject: Pulley Wheels I just called Grande Junquetion LTD and purchased some pulleywheels for a Milward binder. Actually I had to call 3 timesbefore I found someone who could find the wheels, so for anyoneconsidering calling you should know that the have "DRH Johnson"written on them. This may aid in their location. Also, theyare $10 each (wow!). I had them ordered before I learned that,but after so much phone time invested I bit the bullet (myteeth hurt!) Hope this helps. Dave Makel from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Feb 1 16:34:10 1996 Subject: Re: ferrules and rods Hi all.Someone aksed me if a "float" rod (~15' 3 piece) could be made of bamboo.Anyone ever done this, and have tapers? I have some info about making float (also called "match") rods someplacearound here. I'll take a look and let you know what I find. As I recall,the tip only was split cane, the rest was built out of small diameter caneused whole. Float fishing gets us back to the days of Walton and Dame J. Berners and itmight be a fun way to fish with nyphs. No need for flyline or anything.Just a really long tapered leader. Arg! Now you've made me want to build one!!! See what you've done??? :') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net