from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Feb 1 12:39:29 1996 Subject: ferrules and rods Hi all.Someone aksed me if a "float" rod (~15' 3 piece) could be made of bamboo.Anyone ever done this, and have tapers? also, since I am getting to the point were I have to buy ferrules, I thought I would ask you guys about any opinions. Are the truncated ferrules worth buying, or should I stick to the normal ones.I will get them from Baily Wood.thanks in advance.Mauro. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Feb 1 16:34:10 1996 Subject: Re: ferrules and rods Hi all.Someone aksed me if a "float" rod (~15' 3 piece) could be made of bamboo.Anyone ever done this, and have tapers? I have some info about making float (also called "match") rods someplacearound here. I'll take a look and let you know what I find. As I recall,the tip only was split cane, the rest was built out of small diameter caneused whole. Float fishing gets us back to the days of Walton and Dame J. Berners and itmight be a fun way to fish with nyphs. No need for flyline or anything.Just a really long tapered leader. Arg! Now you've made me want to build one!!! See what you've done??? :') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Feb 1 16:45:46 1996 Subject: RE: ferrules and rods Sorry, can't help you on the tapers... also, since I am getting to the point were I have to buy ferrules, Ithought I would ask you guys about any opinions.Are the truncated ferrules worth buying, or should I stick to the normalones.I will get them from Baily Wood. I use the normal ferrules on two piece rods, and truncated ferruleson three piece rods. The reason I use the truncated ferrules on amulti-piece rod is because a ferrule is a rigid spot in an otherwisecontinuous arc when the rod is under load. Using regular ferrulesin a multi-piece rod gives a rather bizzare polygon look to the profileof a rod when it is flexed. Using a truncated ferrule helps quite a bit. I have seen 2 piece Winston cane rods using truncated ferrules. Iguess the rationale behind that is there is less of a flat spot in thebend of the rod under load. I haven't noticed any decrease in strength between the regularferrules and truncated ferrules yet, and I have been consideringusing the truncated ferrule for two piece rods. I'm waiting to see ifanyone else has experience with truncated ferrules in a two piecerod. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Feb 2 08:44:21 1996 Subject: RE: FERRULES & RODS -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- MauroI have used both types. I think the Swiss type (Z) are plain ugly,they weigh more per same size in most cases unless you make your ownand shorten them from standard Z lengths. from a Engineers viewpointthe Z is stronger and if I were building 2 handed 12ft rods I would usethe Z style.Step down style have been used for many years by all the wellknown rod co'ssuch as Payne,and Leonard. They are slim and neat looking and can bedecorated tastefully. Halstead/Payne style are beautiful ferrules. Idon't really agree with some who are of the opinion that they weaken arod. Thousands of beautiful rods were built with these ferrules. Ifthere was a flaw with the ferrules they would not have stood the testof time, and rod makers would have used swiss type as they were calledthen. The super Z didn't come around until the 1950's or very early1960--can't recall exactly when.I believe a truncated type flexes better with the movement of thecane and it's taper.The Z is somewhat stiffer per size--- just myopinion.I hope the points I have brought up will help you in your decision,good luck!Best Regards Jed from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 6 08:54:49 1996 Subject: Thanks Mike -according to my mail record - part of the reason I'm not recieving mail isthat when you subscribed me the last command was unscribe - how do Iget alist of back mail Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 6 09:00:37 1996 Subject: Testing...again...sigh... Sorry folks...trying to figure out if the LISTPROC is onthe fritz... Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 6 09:00:49 1996 Subject: Re: Thanks Wayne, I just checked and you indeed are subscibed. I'm trying totrack down the problem now. The same thing happened to someone elsethey got the unsub message, but the re-sub message didn't get backto them. However, they do show up as being subscribed. As soon asI find something out, I'll let you know. I'll be back shortly... Mike- from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 6 11:08:11 1996 Subject: Re: STILL Testing...sigh... Checking to see if mail is getting through to the list. My lastTEST message came to me through the list, did others receive it? Please reply back to me if you are getting RODMAKERS mail. Yup, all appears fine from my location. ORN (Obligatory Rodmaking Note :-) Ok, ORN: Just got a call from Hunter's that they have my 9' 5wt. Redington blank. It's not cane, but it'sa gonna be nice. It cost $80, btw, with lifetime warranty. This is not the "Red.Start" blank, but rather the same blank they use for their higher end ($250+) flyrods. Russell Gelinasgelinas@ekman.sr.unh.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 6 12:48:25 1996 Subject: Re: STILL Testing...sigh Got through OK here. I made an 8 wt 9' bass rod from a redington blank.I built the whole rod for less than $100 Canadian.costs in $us:blank: $50guides: from a broken rod handle: $3 premade corkreel seat: $10 graphite but very nice (gold colour hardware) This is the only rod I use for bass now. Don't knock these rods because of their (relatively) inexpensive blanks. I can easily shoot a whole weight forward 9 wt line. It's not bamboo, but bass ain't trout.:)mauro Yup, all appears fine from my location. ORN (Obligatory Rodmaking Note :-) Ok, ORN: Just got a call from Hunter's that they have my 9' 5wt. Redington blank. It's not cane, but it'sa gonna be nice. It cost $80, btw, with lifetime warranty. This is not the "Red.Start" blank, but rather the same blank they use for their higher end ($250+) flyrods. Russell Gelinasgelinas@ekman.sr.unh.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 6 17:58:20 1996 Subject: But Bass are Bass This is the only rod I use for bass now. Don't knock these rods because of their (relatively) inexpensive blanks. I can easily shoot a whole weight forward 9 wt line. It's not bamboo, but bass ain't trout.:)mauro Mauro,Even better, bass are bass. I want to get a good slow rod (8'6"-10') for what Chris Bogart calls "green trout". The smallmouths in a nearby rivercan do quite a dance on my 6wts, all (4) of which are medium to medium fast action (old and new cane - very low cost). I'm reworking a 10' Calcutta6wt. but I don't think it can handle green trout so I'll have to use it on our local aneamic rainbows.Reed P.S. - Can you really shoot a whole WF line? (Enquiring readers need toknow) from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 7 00:09:14 1996 Subject: Rodmaker comes in OKKeep up good work. Mike, I haven't had any problems with rodmaker for the last two- threeweeks,but over the X-mas season I stopped getting any messages. I sent theunsubscribe and then a re-sub request and all's OK now. (You mayrememberthat I fell off the list about 6 months ago too.) All this is just FYI tohelp you diagnose system-------------------------------------------------------- ----------------"Astonishment is one of the chief by-products of life." Harry MiddletonDavid L. DeVries Communications Dept Calif State Univ. Fullertonnet: DDevries@Fullerton.Edu Voice:714.773.3004 Fax: 714.773.2209 from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 7 00:35:01 1996 Subject: Your test messages Mike, I also received a host of test messages you sent out on Tuesday. So,everything seems fine here. Johan Saayman. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 7 08:58:20 1996 Subject: Re: But Bass are Bass On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Curry wrote: This is the only rod I use for bass now. Don't knock these rods because of their (relatively) inexpensive blanks. I can easily shoot a whole weight forward 9 wt line. It's not bamboo, but bass ain't trout.:)mauro Mauro,Even better, bass are bass. I want to get a good slow rod (8'6"-10') for what Chris Bogart calls "green trout". The smallmouths in a nearby rivercan do quite a dance on my 6wts, all (4) of which are medium to medium fast action (old and new cane - very low cost). I'm reworking a 10' Calcutta6wt. but I don't think it can handle green trout so I'll have to use it on our local aneamic rainbows.Reed P.S. - Can you really shoot a whole WF line? (Enquiring readers need toknow) Yup. I can shoot a whole line.I can only do it with a strong wind at my back, and if I'm standing at the top of a sharply sloping hill :-) . (The enquirer always forgets these subtle facts in their stories)Accuracy is another thing.... I don't think that being able to shoot a whole line makes a good caster however. This may be important for Tarpon or something like that, but I tend to make about 20-25' casts for largemouth. The local reservoir is making some realy nice bass. I've caught a couple in the 3 lbs range, and I know there are 5 lbs plus fish in there. I fish right in the middle of the wood and trees. At 80 feet, if you get a strike, its hard to set the hook, and if its a big fish, you just lost a bass bug and the fish. I hate when that happens.Mauro. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 7 18:08:48 1996 Subject: Re: New Books Wayne, I would appreciate information on how to order Mauer's book. Couldyoupost it or send it to me. It does sound like a very handy book. Thanks! from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 7 21:34:30 1996 Subject: Silk lines Does anyone on the list have any good, detailed information on themanufacture of silk lines? I'm familiar with the process. Generally 16threads are used and as the line is braided the threads are replaced withthicker ones to get the taper and then the tung-linseed oil are used tomake the coating. What I want is exact diameters of the threads involved,how tight is the braid, patent numbers of the machines for doing thebraiding, etc. Yes, you guessed it. I want to make my own line. And yes, I know it canbe purchased, but the same can be said of bamboo rods, can't it? :') Don't ask me why I want to do this. I don't have a clue. It's a disease Ihave with gadgets and doing things for myself whenever I can. So... How about it?? Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 7 23:24:04 1996 Subject: Re: Silk lines Bruce: Grahame Maisey at Belvoirdale may have info for your quest buthaveno clue as to his propensity to discuss same. (215) 886-7211. You areprobably aware that he/Belv sells Phoenix silk lines. Hope it works outforyou and please keep us posted. I think silk lines are just great and would like some info concerning theirrehab. I have a couple old ones that need refinishing and would like to doso for their use. Anyone know the best way to strip old finishes off andwhat to refinish with and how? Without better info, plan this spring tostripwith Naptha and refinish with a mixture of tung oil and spar varnish.Comments? Would appreciate any info. Also, if anyone wants info on hollow building, I know a neat way to do itthat is simple, direct and does the job. Can also provide info concerningglue for same. Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 8 00:12:32 1996 Subject: Re: Silk lines Bruce: Grahame Maisey at Belvoirdale may have info for your quest buthaveno clue as to his propensity to discuss same. (215) 886-7211. You areprobably aware that he/Belv sells Phoenix silk lines. Hope it works outforyou and please keep us posted. Thanks! Will do! I think silk lines are just great and would like some info concerning theirrehab. I have a couple old ones that need refinishing and would like to doso for their use. Anyone know the best way to strip old finishes off andwhat to refinish with and how? Without better info, plan this spring tostripwith Naptha and refinish with a mixture of tung oil and spar varnish.Comments? Would appreciate any info. I remember reading a story about Charles Ritz (I think) collecting oldlines and restoring them and selling them back to club members. Guess heneeded a hobby with all that money he had! I'll check to be sure on this,but if I recall correctly, he used a alkali to strip the line. But pleasedon't try it till I've confirmed this!! The story also said how he did therefinishing too. I'll let you know. How soon before I make my own hooks? *grin* Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 8 06:14:46 1996 Subject: Re: Silk lines I think silk lines are just great and would like some info concerningtheirrehab. I have a couple old ones that need refinishing and would like to doso for their use. Anyone know the best way to strip old finishes off andwhat to refinish with and how? Without better info, plan this spring tostripwith Naptha and refinish with a mixture of tung oil and spar varnish.Comments? Would appreciate any info. I remember reading a story about Charles Ritz (I think) collecting oldlines and restoring them and selling them back to club members. Guessheneeded a hobby with all that money he had! I'll check to be sure on this,but if I recall correctly, he used a alkali to strip the line. But pleasedon't try it till I've confirmed this!! The story also said how he did therefinishing too. I'll let you know. More than a year ago (how the time flies) I replied to a similar questionin another mail. Then I wrote: I have a paper here describing how to remove the stickiness of asilk line, written by Chris Partington, England. He writes: "Over a period of use a silk line would lose its original polish. When lefton a reel or whatever, warmth would make the oils in the line melt andflowout -- causing a stickiness which we know all too well. Several ways havebeen suggested to remove this stickiness, many of which do irreparabledamage to the silk. One of the most popular methods in Scotland involvesthe removal of the stickiness but the retaining of the dressing still inthe line. This is important as it is not possible to replace the dressing.(The Kingfisher factory took 3 to 4 months to dress a trout line, and 5 to6 months for a salmon line). Receipe: Put 1 cup ordinary garden lime into a full bucket of water. Put inthe line and leave to soak for 3 to 4 hours. Thoroughly rinse line in cleanwater and stretch out to dry. When dry, rub the entire length of line witha cloth of chamois -- really hard so that the heat generated will bring outthe remaining dressing. After rubbing line should be dry and smooth. If the dressing appears to have all gone, a receipe that appeared in theTrout and Salmon Magazine in June 1978 seems a good idea: Soak the lineinwarm linseed oil for 2 days. Remove and stretch in air on hot day. Leaveuntil tacky. Work a mixture of spar varnish and graphite powder(consistency of glue) into line using shamois. Allow to dry a few hoursuntil tacky, then finally polish with clean chamois until smooth and shiny. The dressing is partly there in the line to prevent it from rotting.However, it is still a good idea to dry your line after using it andspecial line drying appliances may be obtained. There is no point in goingto the trouble of cleaning an old silk line if it is rotten already, 9 outof 10 lines that I see in a year are indeed rotten, these get thrown away." He also writes about line dimensions: AA: .065"B: .055"C: .050"D: .045"E: .040"F: .035"G: .030"H: .025"I: .022" Example of the Hardy Corona Silk lines: No. 1: IGI - aftm 32: IEI - 43: HDH - 54: GCG - 75: GBG - 76: GCG - 88: FBF - 810: D AA D - 9 Hardy Philip Silk lines: 1: IEH - 42: IDH - 53: HCH - 64: HBC - 7 These tables are not comparable to other makes of silk lines as the weightvaries from one factory to another. The lines consist of as many as up to96 strands of silk (no. 3). A used line is impossible to identify where itis made, but easy to tell which aftm class it has, just find out how muchthe 30 first feet of line weights and look into the aftma standard. --Terje Tveras, Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 8 08:23:40 1996 Subject: silk lines I believe that there is a section on manufacture and repair ofsilk lines in Kelson's "The Salmon Fly," recently reprinted. - Grayson from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 8 08:35:31 1996 Subject: George's Book When I was at Somerset George had 2 copies of his book - I triedsneaking off with one - but George said he needed them - I had just aglanceat it and it appeared to be just an out line of the needed steps to make arod. I know he talked to Nick Lyons - perhaps on marketing it - At presentIstill don't have one (Although He owns me one) - Updates will follow - OrCall George - I missed his new shop name (I think this is his third) Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 8 14:13:08 1996 Subject: Silk Lines -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Ah Bruce! You have sounded a clarion call. Make your own silk line.Neat! The only makers of silks are one in England and one in France.Both are very pricey. I have only heard how it is done in the mostoblique way. All of the equipment would be rather primitive and wellwithin anyones capabilities. I'll be happy to buy the second one youmake. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 8 15:15:35 1996 Subject: Re: Silk Lines -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Ah Bruce! You have sounded a clarion call. Make your own silk line.Neat! The only makers of silks are one in England and one in France.Both are very pricey. I have only heard how it is done in the mostoblique way. All of the equipment would be rather primitive and wellwithin anyones capabilities. I'll be happy to buy the second one youmake. John You mean you won't read the FAQ I will write and try to make your own?? I'm busy tracking down the authors of some articles in The AmericanFlyfisher magazine as well as getting in contact with a retired gentleman from Cortland Line Co. I bet we can do this! Why not? Since it's forlove, not money, the time we take is not so much a factor and thematerialscost is certainly less than a night out at the opera with dinner. Current plan is to make something suspiciously similar to the rod bindingmachine, but with more spools and such. I know there is an example of abraiding machine used by the Cortland Co up at the Flyfishing Museum inVTand I will be going up to have a look at it sometime no doubt. I have somephots (though not very good) of a production line from one of the oldcompanies as well. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 8 18:30:51 1996 Subject: Re: Silk lines Bruce,I have read four or five articles on re-furbishing old silk lines and one article, at least, on the advantages of the different production methods (enameled silk, oiled-silk, hard-finish, soft-finish, etc.). I'll try and pull a bibliography together for you.I've cleaned and used a few silk lines. Not hard, good results. Also recently bought (only $10) a 1907 vintage Gladding "Saline" H level still in wrapper. Don't know what to do with this. Might be good if I wanted a 2 wt. line. I don't but couldn't pass it up. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 8 20:36:25 1996 Subject: Re: Silk lines Bruce,I have read four or five articles on re-furbishing old silk lines and onearticle, at least, on the advantages of the different production methods(enameled silk, oiled-silk, hard-finish, soft-finish, etc.). I'll try andpull a bibliography together for you.I've cleaned and used a few silk lines. Not hard, good results. Alsorecently bought (only $10) a 1907 vintage Gladding "Saline" H level stillinwrapper. Don't know what to do with this. Might be good if I wanted a 2wt.line. I don't but couldn't pass it up. Reed Thanks Reed, I'll be looking forward to seeing the bibliography. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 8 22:48:55 1996 Subject: Re: Silk lines Hello Reed:I guess this is part 2 of "hobby gone bad". I have two old silk lines, a #4and a #5 I think, and would love to put them back into service as theyseemto still have their tensil strength. One is merely tacky (in a tactilsense), but the other has problems to the core. Any info you can puttogetherabout refurbishing silk lines would be greatly appreciated. Best Regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 8 23:27:04 1996 Subject: cane I recently purchased cane for my first rod. All three pieces have light discoloration appearently from heating to straighten. How serious a problem is this? Also some of the cane has areas that have a slightly green undercast, do they need further seasoning? If so how long? I am sure all this has been covered before and I hope I am not boring every one on the list, but I sure would appreciate any input. Thanks, Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 9 10:17:06 1996 Subject: ron barch email Does Ron Barch (of 'Planing Form' Fame) have an email account? or, Ron, are you lurking on this list? maybe someone can help? TIA, Hans _____________________________________________________________________________ "The worst monotonous drone coming from a lectern or the most eye-splittingtextbook written in turgid English is nothing in comparison to the psychological Sahara that starts right in your bedroom and spurns the horizon." -Joseph Brodsky, from "In praise of Boredom" delivered as a commencement address at Dartmouth College._____________________________________________________________________________Hans T.H. Beernink, Department of Biochemistry, University of Vermonthbeernin@protein.med.uvm.edu FAX (802)862- 8229Tel.(802)656-8244 from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 9 10:35:23 1996 Subject: Wooden handles I read the messages on wooden handles recently on the flyfish list. Does anyone here have experience making them? I make the wooden inserts formy reel seats, and would like to try making a wooden handle. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 9 10:35:43 1996 Subject: Cane grips (not gripes) During the past couple of months, I've seen pictures of old canerods that had thin banded cane grips. Does anyone know how thisis done or if these type grips are fragile? -Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 9 10:59:04 1996 Subject: Re: ron barch email I don't think Ron has an email address. If he does, it's a new one sinceabout Jan 10. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 9 19:18:33 1996 Subject: Re: Cane grips (not gripes) The handles are Rattan not Cane. They were used on a numberof early rods and replaced by cork. I have just seen an Ad Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 9 19:18:46 1996 Subject: Epoxy Clean-up During doing my glue test I came across some usefull infoon how to clean up epoxy uncured resins. I wanted to wait untillI tried the method with Nyatex which I use for my rods. I alsodo it bare handed so I am fully aware of how tough it is to getoff. I glued up a butt section and lo and behold the stuff workswonderfully. No sticky black stuff on my hands. So what is thismagic stuff?? Well it is non-toxic and not made from petroleum andis cheap. My bottle said $0.47 for a pint. The magic stuffis White Vinegar. I use Heinz Distilled White Vinegar and it reallycleans up the uncured resins. Try it and let me know. But thisreally saves lots of clean up time and headaches. Chris. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sat Feb 10 00:55:08 1996 Subject: Garrison's Math I've been background-processing Garrison's math for a long time. Trickystuff. Seems to me there is an issue. I've seen many descriptions of theLINEAR path the tiptop makes. The path made by the tiptop determines thetightness of your loop (or tailing loop in the case of my casting!). Thetiptop COMES DOWN at the midpoint of your cast due to the flex of the rod.The length of the rod essentially decreases during casting if you applyGarrison's model! This seems to blow Garrison's math up. It is based on the line beingperpendicular to the rod. This is only the case for an instant during afore or backcast and at THAT time the rod is under no stress at all! Anyone else have any thoughts on this issue? Cheers,Gordon from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sat Feb 10 02:58:58 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison's Math Gordon, That is an interesting thought -- Marinaro has a discussion of theeffectivelength of a rod changing during casting more or less depending on the rod'saction and stiffness, which would throw the math back in another loop ifyoutried to account for it. I don't think you do, though, at least not withGarrison's math. It seems to me -- and this is just from squinting at it -- that the equationis based on how the rod behaves while under the load of the line (includingintertia -- which is what the 4 X line weight step is about -- which wouldonly come into play as the rod is loaded against the line traveling in theopposite direction); that the assumption IS that the rod will be bent whilein the state the equation describes, but that the only way the length of therod matters is in determining how the stress is transmitted and how muchbamboo there is in cross-section at any given point in order to arrive at acertain oz/inch figure, taking into account what happened in the previousfive inches of rod and yadeyadeyadeya. A rod built to a certain stresscurvewill bend a certain way, but I don't think the equation cares what the rodlooks like in the act of casting. Given radically different stress curves,the rod could be deflected either 20 degrees or 90 degrees under the sameload and the equation would still be descriptive even though the length ofthe shortest line connecting butt and tip would indeed change. (Neitherwould necessarily be a good rod, of course, at least for that load, that'sjust for example.) Garrison's math seems to work, which is the proof of the pudding, but Iknowthat there are much more precise and elegant engineering tools availablenowthan there were fifty years ago. Anybody you know working with finitedifference equations? Best, Jack from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sat Feb 10 11:49:27 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison's Math Over the years there have been a few methods developed to monitor orchange fly rod design - The Garrison model is prehaps the best known - Adeflection board is another. The element that hasn't been discussed mucharethe profiles of the tapers themselves - Mr. Garrisons tapers were actuallyvery simplistic in comparison with other rod makers ideas - perhaps someofthe most complex were the Leonards - on some models the slope will makebreakpoints at as little as 1 1/2". Unfortunately most of the past makers aren't here to participate in thediscussions of the hows and whys of the rod designs so we are left totryingto interpute what they did or were trying to do with their profiles. Over the years I have ran many of the numbers through the computerprogram I wrote - and as I explained in my book - There could be betterandmore improved methods with the speed and accuracy of the currentcomputers -but then I would have to reset the rules that I have developed - or redo the'ruler' as I call it.The real problem with all this is the same problem that has alwaysexisted - Many of the rod makers don't necessarily agree on what doeswhatwith a fly rod action - some of this is real and some of it is just conflictof personalities. And to futher confuse matters each of us define the'terms'differently - (example: a fast rod).I have tried and am trying to write something on this very subject -buthere again it will be my interputation which may or may not be correctandonce it is in print there is seeming justification for it all even if it ispure speculation. We have all seen this happen Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sat Feb 10 12:00:28 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison's Math Over the years I have ran many of the numbers through the computerprogram I wrote - and as I explained in my book - There could be betterandmore improved methods with the speed and accuracy of the currentcomputers -but then I would have to reset the rules that I have developed - or redothe'ruler' as I call it. I'm working on a new windows version of the rod design program rightnow.It's in the beginning stages and I have been wondering about the mathmyself. If anyone has any suggestions on how to improve the program, letme know. I think this is something we can hash over here for quite awhileand come out ahead in the end. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sat Feb 10 16:08:37 1996 Subject: Re: Cane grips (not gripes) During the past couple of months, I've seen pictures of old canerods that had thin banded cane grips. Does anyone know how thisis done or if these type grips are fragile? Jerry,As Chris mentioned, what you see is rattan wound over a softwood orpoplar form. I've handled these and found them to be uncomfortable after a while; especially if part of the rattan starts to sliver. Cord was also used during this period of manufacture (pre-1890) and was much more comfortablebut not as pleasant as the sheet cork that supplanted it. All of these required a wooden form over which to apply the grip. Cork rings really were a great idea. If you want an elegant grip, saw the cork into 1/8" wide rings before glueing; this makes quite a difference.Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sat Feb 10 16:35:22 1996 Subject: Re: Silk lines Bruce,Silk line biblio as promised. "Fishing Lake and Stream" (1937) edited by Shrenkkeisen. One author (W. Gallaher) says only enameled silk should be used; Samuel Camp says "soft- finished (oil-impregnated) lines are in every way superior to the old-style hard-enameled lines". "Field Book of Fresh-Water Angling" by J.A.Knight. CHapter 3 goes into detail about the history of the silk lines, development of tapers, specific gravities, repair and storage. A must read. "Streamcraft" (1917) by Geo. Holden has an interesting chapter on care of silk lines. "Practical Fly FIshing" (1920) by Larry St. John has 6 pages on the various types of silk lines. This book also has quite a nice chapter on many woods to be used for rods."THe Fine Art of FIshing" (1911) by Samuel Camp. Interestingly hereCamp suggests purchasing an enamelled line?! That's all for now. Good reading. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sat Feb 10 22:04:55 1996 Subject: Garrison's -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Simple. Garrison's math describes a parabola derived from a cube root.It describes his taper designs because he based his tapers on thisparabola (excepting the tips). Whether of not this model describes allactions is open to question.I wish one of us would attempt a program employing a statistical-typeexponential regression analysis that would at least allow us to (somewhat) accurately derive different lengths and line weights whilemaintaining the desired action. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 11 00:41:08 1996 Subject: Fancy Wood Spacers--Where to Get OK, I fell for it and sent my $4 or $5 to Tom Morgan Rodsmiths just to seewhat a $960 custom graphite rod would look like. The rods look OK, buthisfancy wood reel seat spacers are *incredible*! He has unusually prettythings like box elder burl, quilted maple, and black ash burl-- claims someare partially decomposed and then filled/stabilized with resin. *Very*pretty wood!! The reel hardware looks like REC to me-- anyone know if REC or someoneoffers a cap and ring wood spacer in some of these exotic and fancyflavors? ( No connection to/with him, but here's the address if you're interested:Tom Morgan Rodsmiths, 21505 Norris Rd, Manhattan, MT 59741, Phone406.282.7110 . The catalog costs $.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------"Astonishment is one of the chief by-products of life." Harry MiddletonDavid L. DeVries Communications Dept Calif State Univ. Fullertonnet: DDevries@Fullerton.Edu Voice:714.773.3004 Fax: 714.773.2209 from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 11 09:08:57 1996 Subject: Re: Fancy Wood Spacers--Where to Get I have talked with REC - they are willing to work with mostrodmakers for custom designs, laser ingraving, and wood inserts. If youfind a source of wood that you especially like - they will turn it for you even if they don't stock it themselves. I know a lot of the woodworking and hobby catalogues have very exotic woods for sale. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 11 11:05:23 1996 Subject: Re: Fancy Wood Spacers--Where to Get If you are looking to get beat up financially call REC - But if you want justas fancy wood at an affordable price call Al Bellinger (Bellinger ReelSeats)- Al will work with you as you like - I get the hardware and unfinishedwood from him - that way I can stain and finish the fillers as I like - That way Ican maintain "Asthentic Balance" with my rods which is criticallyimportant.Give Al a call (503 - 371 - 6151) and avoid the raping you will getelsewhere Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 11 19:18:56 1996 Subject: More Garrison's Math Whether of not this model describes allactions is open to question.I wish one of us would attempt a program employing a statistical-typeexponential regression analysis that would at least allow us to (somewhat) accurately derive different lengths and line weights whilemaintaining the desired action. JohnHe has unusually pretty things like box elder burl, quilted maple, andblackash burl-- >claims some are partially decomposed and thenfilled/stabilizedwith resin. *Very*pretty wood!! The claim is correct. I attended a custom knife show this weekend andpickedup a couple of pieces of stablized wood to make spacers. One piece isspalted maple and the other is birds-eye black ash. Both are highlyfiguredand the cost for the two was $55. I should be able to get six spacers fromthe two pieces. When you cut into stablized spalted maple you cansometimesdetect voids that were filled by the stablizing process. By the way,stablized wood is very big in the custom knife world as a handle material. Manhattan Custom Tackle (1-800-219-2000) carries REC reel seats andcatalogs"extra select" impregnated spacers for $35 each. They are special order. Johnny Johnson from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 11 20:30:37 1996 Subject: Scanning Listmembers:It occured to me as I was looking up articles on silk lines that it would be useful to create an electronic library of old or rare rodmaking/fishing books/articles. If anyone on the list lives near southern N.H. and has access to a scanner, I have many volumes of interest whose copyright has lapsed. I'd be happy to have these scanned and entered into the listarchives.Just a thought.Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 11 21:09:43 1996 Subject: Re: Scanning Listmembers:It occured to me as I was looking up articles on silk lines that it wouldbe useful to create an electronic library of old or rare rodmaking/fishingbooks/articles. If anyone on the list lives near southern N.H. and hasaccess to a scanner, I have many volumes of interest whose copyright haslapsed. I'd be happy to have these scanned and entered into the listarchives.Just a thought.Reed Hmmm... I live just north of Boston and I have access to a scanner, tho notany HD space to put the scans on! If you have an extra drive, we might beable to work something out. I think in terms of space, a transcription would be better. OCR softwaremight be able to work on many of the books, but then again, the oldertypefaces mght take a lot of handwork. I'll ask around and see what thelatest word is on OCR software. There was a series of "classic" angling books reprinted a couple of yearsago. Are you sure all the materials are past copyright? It's a great idea,I'd just hate to see any legal entanglements. Heck, if it gets going big,we could maybe get materials from the American Museum of Flyfishing. How about making it into a compact disk? I played with that idea justbefore that blasted series of classic books came out, then I shelved itsince I didn't think there would be a market for the less obscure titles.Witht the improvement in writable CDs, a small run might be a possibility! Thanks for your great suggestion, Reed!! (BTW, I went to the research section of the Boston Public Library todayandfound some chapters on vacuum impregnation of silk lines. I still needinfo on the exact type of silk thread and diameter of the thread etc.) Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 11 22:09:28 1996 Subject: Wooden spacers -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Highly figured woods are available from lots of different places. Idon't care for the impregnated woods that are often used. They oftensplit while being bored and are inordinately heavy. Natural wood seemsto work well as long as it is properly finished. Some burls tend tochip out under the tool while in the lath.Highly spalted woods are miserable. Redwood, Myrtle, Madrone, andcherry burls work well. And fiddle- back maple machines like agentleman. All of the Mexican and Central American rosewoods machinewell and finish to a high polish easily. They are a bit on the heavyside. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 12 03:17:44 1996 Subject: More Garrison 2 That's precisely my point. I'm not sure Garrison's method even beginsto account for all the variables. In fact, as an experienced maker, I'mquite sure it does not. Subject: RE: Hollow building A few months ago I posted a few messages askingabout hollow rods, and Dick Spurr mentioned a coupleof patents that showed two different ways to build ahollow bamboo fly rod. I called the U.S. patent office,and for three dollars each they sent me a copy. One is by E.C. Powell, Pat. No. 1932986This one shows how to do something very similar towhat you described, only he used soft pine as a fillerand scooped out sections every few inches. The other one is by L.D. Stoner, Pat. No. 2537488This one shows how to make a hollow rod by flutingthe splines. He had a jig that scraped out a concavesection from the middle of the spline, removing the mostmaterial possible, and still keeping the glue lines as longas possible. Both are well worth getting. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 12 13:02:21 1996 Subject: Hollow Building II My apologies for the garbled format and chopped sentences in the original. Iwent to a lot of trouble to see that all came out allright. In transferingback and forth between the word processor and AOL, somthing got lost intranslation. I probably violated some default protocol. These are the elements of the presentation: Untitled introductionPLANNING:HOLLOWING:GLUEING:OUT OF STRING AND STRAIGHTENING:AFTERTHOUGHTS: (4 paragraphs)SOURCEING: Note, you will have to do a lot of scrolling, because there are large blankspaces between some of the elements. Still looking for that sympatheticcomputer guru for help. Again, sorry.RT from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 12 13:37:31 1996 Subject: RE: patents Hi. I'd like to know more about buying patents. Phone number, person totalk to, method of payment, etc. Thanks for any help. Frank ArmbrusterBootstrap@earthlink.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 12 13:37:37 1996 Subject: Re: Wooden spacers -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Highly figured woods are available from lots of different places. Idon't care for the impregnated woods that are often used. They oftensplit while being bored and are inordinately heavy. Natural wood seemsto work well as long as it is properly finished. Some burls tend tochip out under the tool while in the lath.Highly spalted woods are miserable. Redwood, Myrtle, Madrone, andcherry burls work well. And fiddle- back maple machines like agentleman. All of the Mexican and Central American rosewoods machinewell and finish to a high polish easily. They are a bit on the heavyside. John I no longer buy wood spacers from the commercial suppliers of FF gear. Myfather is a carpenter, and when he showed me his collection of woodsamples from my own forest up north, I decided to go for "home grown". After sometrials at his lathe and with different varnish experiences, the result isvery good. I prefer varnish to oil and other impregnating solutions. Thenicest burls are in the most common tree here, birch. Some very few birchtrees produce astonishing burls, but you cannot see that specific effect from the outside of the tree. As wee cut trees for winter heating, theseburled patterns pop ut from time to time among the log bundles, and aresetaside for wood carving. Has anybody tried bone as spacer? The lapps in Northern Scandinavia userain deer bones as shafts on knives and this should prove well for a rod, Iam sure. Hardy, in the old days, even used ivory on some of their rods. Ihave a "Princess" rod from just after the turn of the century which hasdecorations of ivory, agate in different colours and cork togehter, a realgem for the lady fisher. --Terje Tveras, Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 12 15:55:46 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison's With all this talk about Garrison's math, I got to thinking.When I was in school taking chemistry, There was a course I took in 3rd year(physical chemistry), where the professor derived 3 different ways of looking at the same thing (reaction rates if anyone cares). Each one was elegant in its own way, and each made assumptions. Also, they all looked like they worked. When one takes each derived equation, and applies it to a specific case, the differences were as high as a factor of 10^5 from experiments or each other.My point is this. Has anyone thought of starting over with the math?This is not to say that Garrison's ideas were "wrong". There is no such thing. There may be a different way to look at the physics of bamboo rods which yields an interesting result. Don't forget, Garrison's method was to start with a straight taper and modify it, until the iterations yeilded little or no difference from the previous run through. But, if you started off with the exact shape you wanted for the rod under load, and the length etc.. then I'm sure you could do some math and get the taper for a given shape.Also, there is no substitute for experience. Knowing what you want from a rod comes from having cast many rods, or having built many rods, something I am far from having done. Mauro. On Sat, 10 Feb 1996, MR JOHN C ZIMNY wrote: -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Simple. Garrison's math describes a parabola derived from a cube root.It describes his taper designs because he based his tapers on thisparabola (excepting the tips). Whether of not this model describes allactions is open to question. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 12 16:01:37 1996 Subject: RE: patents Hi Frank!I didn't know you were a member of this list. I bought one of yourplaning forms about a year ago, and I've been happily planingaway ever since. I'm working on my eighth and ninth rod concurrentlyright now (two guys want the same rod, so I'm making them at the sametime). The patent office number I got from my local phone book underU.S. Government. I didn't save the number at the time, sorry.They take credit cards for payment, and I think they havea bunch of people answering the phones, so there is no oneparticular person to talk to. You have to know the patent number.They won't take a request like "Everything you have dealing withbamboo rods" or "anything L.D. Stoner patented". You have toknow the specific patent number. If you are in a big hurry you canpay $25 and they will fax it to you. For $3 they will mail it to you. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com ----------From: owner-rodmakers Subject: RE: patentsDate: Monday, February 12, 1996 11:46AM Hi. I'd like to know more about buying patents. Phone number, person totalk to, method of payment, etc. Thanks for any help. Frank ArmbrusterBootstrap@earthlink.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 12 19:53:48 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison's Math The real problem with all this is the same problem that has alwaysexisted - Many of the rod makers don't necessarily agree on what doeswhatwith a fly rod action - some of this is real and some of it is just conflictof personalities. And to futher confuse matters each of us define the 'terms'differently - (example: a fast rod).I have tried and am trying to write something on this very subject - buthere again it will be my interputation which may or may not be correctandonce it is in print there is seeming justification for it all even if it ispure speculation. We have all seen this happen Wayne I am a novice when it comes to bamboo rod making, I only beenat it for a year, but if anyone is interested in my opinions..... I made a couple Garrison taper rods, and they were okay, sortof what I expected in bamboo rod. Then I made a Cattanachtaper rod, and I was amazed. The first one I made was a 7ft.4 wt 2 piece, and at the risk of sounding trite, it is truly a joy tocast. This rod I made for my Dad, and he isn't a real goodflyline caster. He owns a couple top of the line Orvis rods ingraphite, and a couple of times I have just thrown up my handsand told him to keep his casts shorter than 30 feet, becausenothing has helped his casting. When I made the bamboorod for him I expected to have to coach him through the firstday of fishing with it so he wouldn't get discouraged and giveup on bamboo rods. To my utter amazement his first cast waspicture perfect. Tight loops, exact timing and 50 ft. plus. Theleader turned over, laid straight out, and the fly landed withbarely a whisper. The clincher was he caught a 12 inch browntrout on his third cast with this rod. Now, if Wayne's interpretation of rod actions is pure speculation,then the speculation is good enough for me, and I can't wait untilhe publishes his speculations. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 13 00:25:55 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison's Thanks, Mauro, good points. But hey, hey, hey, if anybody thought there was a conflict of personalitiesgoing on, I beg your pardon. Nothing could be further from my intent. I'mactually very curious about this, partly because my own mathematicalinsightis so murky. My tendency is more toward empirical design, building rodsthatI like and modifying them by degrees to try to make them better. I'm stillcurious about math and play around with it, though, and when anybodytalksabout different mathematical approaches to rod design I'm there. What Ihear, though, is people like me saying "somebody ought to try derivingtaperswith finite difference equations" or somebody saying somebody should trysomething else. My own feeling and experience is that Garrison's math"works" with a variety of stress curves -- the glowing testimonial toWayne'staper would seem to point in that direction, too. At the very least, it'sbetter than a wild-ass guess. While more exposition of any opposingpointsof view would be great, I can leave this alone if it's irritating people.I'd still like to know if any other approaches have actually been used, andwith what success. Jack from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 13 08:37:35 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison's Math A couple of small points, if I may. I inadvertantly modified a good Heddontaper and got a quirky 7-6 #4 that I like; some others do, some don't. UsedWayn's disk to get a stress curve then elongated it to 8' using the 1"increment printout the program provides plus interpolation. Went backintothe program with the new stress curve for 8' and a heavier line. As far asIcan tell, the new rod duplicates the action and feel of the original hybridexcept for overall weight. The bamboo for the second rod was treatedaboutlike the first, ie. heat-treat times and flaming technique. This this is atelling point, because the rods are tip action rods until really loaded.This leads to the second point. Probably most actions/tapers are derived, Therefore to duplicate their action in a particular taper one should, itfollows, treat the bamboo accordingly. That may include type of glue andeven finish. This is a point I've heald dear for quite some time, so wouldbe interested in the experiences of others. Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 13 08:43:39 1996 Subject: Re: Wooden spacers------WARNING!!!! -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Monday, 12-Feb-96 02:56 PM From: Terje Tveras \ Internet: (tert@cc.uib.no) Subject: Re: Wooden spacers I no longer buy wood spacers from the commercial suppliers of FFgear. Myfather is a carpenter, and when he showed me his collection of woodsamples from my own forest up north, I decided to go for "homegrown".After some trials at his lathe and with different varnish experiences,theresult is very good. I prefer varnish to oil and other impregnatingsolutions. The nicest burls are in the most common tree here, birch.Somevery few birch trees produce astonishing burls, but you cannot seethatspecific effect from the outside of the tree. As wee cut trees forwinterheating, these burled patterns pop ut from time to time among the logbundles, and are set aside for wood carving. Has anybody tried bone as spacer? The lapps in Northern Scandinaviauserain deer bones as shafts on knives and this should prove well for arod,I am sure. Hardy, in the old days, even used ivory on some of theirrods.I have a "Princess" rod from just after the turn of the century whichhasdecorations of ivory, agate in different colours and cork togehter, arealgem for the lady fisher. --Terje Tveras, Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no TERJE------Please everybody take care, if you per chance encountertrue IvoryBe aware of the danger of working with it. Grinding or turning canpose a health problem. I saw ( some time ago ) a warning in the CSERVEwoodworking forumit told of possible health problems from sawing/turning etc. withdifferent kinds of woods.Recently there was a warning about Ivory and different animalhorns, this indicated a danger of possibly contacting anthrax fromworking with animal horns/Ivory. If the messages are still on the forumI will try and pass them along here. I know the chances of encounteringreal Ivory are remote, however an ounce of prevention etc. Regards Jed -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 13 10:20:17 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison's Hi Jack.I'm enjoying the discussion.Lets keep it up. There is always a new way to look at things. Some are total failures while others are interesting but not useful. If I ever get this rod finished then I'll sit down and think for a while. I would like to know from group members what ideas they have as far as representinga rod mathematicaly.Mauro. On Tue, 13 Feb 1996 JHowell982@aol.com wrote: Thanks, Mauro, good points. But hey, hey, hey, if anybody thought there was a conflict ofpersonalitiesgoing on, I beg your pardon. Nothing could be further from my intent. I'mactually very curious about this, partly because my own mathematicalinsightis so murky. My tendency is more toward empirical design, building rodsthatI like and modifying them by degrees to try to make them better. I'mstillcurious about math and play around with it, though, and when anybodytalksabout different mathematical approaches to rod design I'm there. What Ihear, though, is people like me saying "somebody ought to try derivingtaperswith finite difference equations" or somebody saying somebody shouldtrysomething else. My own feeling and experience is that Garrison's math"works" with a variety of stress curves -- the glowing testimonial toWayne'staper would seem to point in that direction, too. At the very least, it'sbetter than a wild-ass guess. While more exposition of any opposingpointsof view would be great, I can leave this alone if it's irritating people.I'd still like to know if any other approaches have actually been used,andwith what success. Jack from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 13 13:10:22 1996 Subject: hollow cane rods Fellow splinter gatherers &blade sharpeners,I've been making hollow butt rods for a while now and sometimeshavetrouble getting the glue (urac 185) to drain out. If I thin it to much I'mafraid I'll not get a good bond. Should I go to some thing like nyatec?Hank from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 13 16:50:50 1996 Subject: Re: Wooden spacers------WARNING!!!! true IvoryBe aware of the danger of working with it. Grinding or turning canpose a health problem. I saw ( some time ago ) a warning in the CSERVEwoodworking forumit told of possible health problems from sawing/turning etc. withdifferent kinds ofwoods True enough.It is recommended to use a mask when turning wood and other materials,andso I do, but finding real ivory in Norway will be a rough problem.... On the other hand, the Japanese pay quite a lot for rain deer horn powder,whether they inhale it or eat it I don't know, but they use it asaphrodisiac for another pole than fishing rods... --Terje Tveras, Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 13 18:32:31 1996 Subject: Re: Wooden spacers------WARNING!!!! DOuble Warning::Be aware of the danger of working with it. Grinding or turning canpose a health problem. I saw ( some time ago ) a warning in the CSERVEwoodworking forumit told of possible health problems from sawing/turning etc. withdifferent kinds of woods. Certain woods are extremely toxic. The smallest amount of dust from Iroko, for example, can cause severe respiratory distress in many individuals. Cocobolo can cause skin lesions. Cedar dust can be hazardousto many.IMHO. one should determine the toxicity before working with exoticwoods. (Not the way I did with Iroko:) Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 13 20:06:43 1996 Subject: Hexrod Wayne? can you or someone tell me how to run hexrod iteratively toretrieve aline wgt., given a taper..Jerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 14 00:10:39 1996 Subject: Re: Hexrod Jerry -First you put the little diskette in the little slot - I will sent you alenghter explaination later - But what I really need is your address so Icansend you a video - that way you will be able to relive the adventure - Somewhere I lost your business card or at least haven't found it yet in theunpacking - I am still doing a show this weekend - Remind me to also tellyouabout the Hotel fire in Somerset Will write tomorrow Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 14 08:55:38 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison's Math Darryl Hayashida writes, I am a novice when it comes to bamboo rod making, I only beenat it for a year, but if anyone is interested in my opinions..... (Just to add my 2 cents, for what it is worth.) When I first ran HEXROD to get stress curves I took a look at the numbersandpromptly sent the disk back to Wayne with a note stating that there mustbesomething wrong with these crazy numbers. He called me explaining whatthenumbers were and that they were fine. What I started doing since then, is to plot every taper that I can get myhands on. I enter each stress factor into a graphing spreadsheet program,andit gives me a detailed readout of the taper. This has been extremelyhelpful As Darryl stated, I also have enjoyed Wayne's tapers, but my favorite isthe6'3" 4 wt. I am now building that taper in a number of different weightsandlengths. Most importantly what the stress graph does for me is visualize theaction ofthe rod. The descriptions that people that I have talked to about action andwhat they like and do not like in the action of a rod, are so varied thatit's difficult to sort these descriptions out. Fast action, slow action, wetfly - dry fly action, there may be some excepted standards to theseactions,but in reality everyone has there own opinion. The action of the rod thatDarryl likes, has most of the action at the tip. The action of the rod that Ilike has stresses towards the tip at 10"to 20" and then again at towardsthebutt at 45" to 50". As a new rod maker the stress curves have been invaluable to help meinterpret fly fishers statements regarding action into a rod they like. I missed the first part of this discussion (I didn't get any mail for 2weeks) so I hope my comments are not out of place, but for me, once Ilearnedhow to construct a bamboo rod, studying stress curves has been the nextstepon how to understand how rods work. If there is another approach toaccomplish this, I think that is great. I have learned that in rod makingthat there is always more to be learned. My wife thinks I'm crazy, sitting at the computer as a new stress curvecomesoff the printer. I'll jump and yell something and show he the graph. Shewillroll her eyes and say yes Dear that's nice and I go back to the computer. Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 14 12:26:31 1996 Subject: RE: Garrison's Math Ya' all: I have been working, on and off, for about a year on a Windows programthat will do a lot of things... 1. Catalog all of your tapers.2. 'Morph' an existing taper.3. Edit the taper graphically.4. View the tapers on the screen. The current version of the program requires Windows-NT 3.51 orWindows- 95. If there is enough of an interest and I can justify the time and cost I'll port it to the Mac. The program uses cubic splines as a 'fitting' algorithm because of it's tendency to model 'natural' curves very accurately. These algorithms are very similar to the methods used to design and model the shape of aship/yacht hull. I also plot the section-modulus and cross sectional area curves becausethey have a tendency to magnify the knots. Stay tuned, should have something ready for a *limited* beta-test in the next few months. If all goes well then an official release will occur inthe spring, hopefully in time for the gathering in Grayling... Tight Lines,Dane. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 14 13:11:16 1996 Subject: Rod tip sections I have several 7'-8' butt sections for two piece rods that are in need oftips. Does anyone know of a source for rod tip secctions? I make graphiterods but only refinish cane rods. Any information would be appreciated."Thank You ClarkClark I.Davis11102 82 nt. St.Kenosha, Wi. 53142c- davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 15 01:22:46 1996 this computer stuff but ?? my mail keepsgetting rejected and people keep answering my discards? My address isJ.W.Foster- 175 Browncliff Ct. - Double Oak Tx. 75067- I read about your tape, Ihope you make a bundle.. I forgot to get a copy of your source code for yourprograms. If you can send me that also I'll try to convert it to a Macformatand return it to you. ThanxJerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 15 07:43:10 1996 Subject: programmes for Mac I am a Mac owner. I really look forward to receiving Macversions of your programmes. thanks, Jim Boone. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 15 09:07:57 1996 Subject: Cane Rod Manufacturing Patents 4.1.611 Rodmakers,A while back someone replied to a question posted to rodmakers abouthollow rod construction.In that reply were two patent numbers and the comment that they hadcopies of same. I ordered copies, from the US Patent Office, of the hollow rod construction patents, the Orvis/Wes Jordan impregnation patent and the impregnation patent mentioned in the George Herter, Rod manufacturingbook.I would like to build a list of expired patents that would be usefull to cane rod construction and share it with the rodmakers list. I havesearched the US Patent Office Web Page. Their on-line listings onlygo back to 1974. Before I spend a lot of time searching the Chicago Public Library for relevantpatents. Has anyone done this? Is there a list? Olaf Borge begin 600 WINMAIL.DATM>)\^(A(/`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ @@&-,$12B0!`Y$' 91ECM9/Rodmakers,A while back someone replied to a question posted to rodmakers abouthollowrod construction.In that reply were two patent numbers and the comment that they hadcopiesof same. I ordered copies, from the US Patent Office, of the hollow rodconstruction patents, the Orvis/Wes Jordan impregnation patent and theimpregnation patent mentioned in the George Herter, Rod manufacturingbook.I would like to build a list of expired patents that would be usefull tocane rod construction and share it with the rodmakers list. I havesearchedthe US Patent Office Web Page. Their on-line listings onlygo back to 1974. Before I spend a lot of time searching the Chicago PublicLibrary for relevantpatents. Has anyone done this? Is there a list? Olaf Borge Olaf, I live near Boston, which also is a Patent Repository Library and have doneseveral searches for patens, though not a search for fishing rodconstruction. I could probably come up with a list of patent numbers ofthe class and subclass easily enough, but getting a listing of the abstract(or even title) might be a little harder. the old CASSIS system gavetitles, but the new CD system I'm not sure of. I'll check. Getting a list of titles *should* be pretty fast. Getting copies of thefull patents would be much more involved. There is a 25 cent per pagecharge for making copies from the mircofilm records at the Boston libraryand it is a lot of handwork. If you get me the patent numbers you have, I will be able to find out thecurrent class/subclass they fall under and do a quick listing of all thepatenet numbers under those headings. Not all the numbers will actuallyberelevant, however. Titles will be a help there if we can get them.Otherwiose it's a hand search through the Gazettes to see the abstract andthen on to the full text on microfilm. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 16 18:49:30 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Rod Manufacturing Patents I live near Boston, which also is a Patent Repository Library and havedoneseveral searches for patens, though not a search for fishing rodconstruction. I could probably come up with a list of patent numbers ofthe class and subclass easily enough, but getting a listing of the abstract(or even title) might be a little harder. the old CASSIS system gavetitles, but the new CD system I'm not sure of. I'll check. Getting a list of titles *should* be pretty fast. Getting copies of thefull patents would be much more involved. There is a 25 cent per pagecharge for making copies from the mircofilm records at the Bostonlibraryand it is a lot of handwork. If you get me the patent numbers you have, I will be able to find out thecurrent class/subclass they fall under and do a quick listing of all thepatenet numbers under those headings. Not all the numbers will actuallyberelevant, however. Titles will be a help there if we can get them.Otherwiose it's a hand search through the Gazettes to see the abstractandthen on to the full text on microfilm. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net Assuming you would not run into copyright infringements, this wouldbe a perfect thing to put on your web page. I think it would be a greatresource to be able to look up an expired patent on your web page. Let me know if you need some help in defraying the cost of obtainingthe copies. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 18 06:27:36 1996 Subject: Grips - size and shape I'm curious about the increase in size of cork grips over the past 100 years. Most of my favorite old rods have grips that would be diminutive by todays standards. As an example, I measured 4 rods from the 1890-1930 period. All have "cigar" (Payne style) grips and are from top makers Length of rod/line wt. Approx. Date Length of cork 10' / 5-6 1890 5.25"10' / 6-7 1910 5.125"8'5" / 6 1927 5.5"9" / 6 1930 6.5" Todays grips are usually 6.5" - 7.5". Why? Also, the question of shape. Most of the old writers suggest a cigar, usually adding that it permits you to move your hand about for a different grip as you tire. Aesthetically, I believe it is probably, like the line of beauty, universally appealling as well. Yet, most modern rods have a full Wells or reverse half wells, again why? Full of questions. Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 18 13:57:44 1996 Subject: Cane source Has anyone ever bought Tonkin cane from Eastern Star? I spoke to a person on their 800 number [(800)522- 0085] and was quoted a price for12 foot poles of about 1 1/4" diameter of $1.85 per pole. I was assured that these are Tonkin cane. I am just astounded at how inexpensive the price is. The company is based in, I think, Illinois, but has warehouses around the country (I know for sure one is in Fresno). I'd like to see if people have used their cane...I'd like both positive and negative comments. enthused with the ideas given here. Keep up the good work everyone. Erwin from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 18 18:27:56 1996 Subject: Building Nodeless I want to build a nodeless rod, but got in at the very end of the recenttraffic on the subject. I have a splicing block and have ordered 1" springclamps. Any help on the following areas would be greatly appreciated;glue,clamping technique,suggestions for splice spacing in gluing up, sawtoothpatterns (heard mention of this), from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 18 19:00:11 1996 Subject: Re: Cane source Erwin -I hate to upset your source for lessor expensive bamboo BUT the tonkinbamboo that you have inquired about is intended for making furniture with-This means that it would have many defects in it and the depth of powerfiberwould be very thin Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 18 19:11:42 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Rod Manufacturing Patents Don't sweat going to the library in Chicago. I'll be going to therepository in Denver several times in the next few weeks. I'll start thesearch, you can just hang loose. Frank. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 18 19:15:56 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Rod Manufacturing Patents No problem with copyright infringements on patents. Anyone can copythemfreely. Frank Armbruster from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 18 21:39:04 1996 Subject: Building Nodeless (completed) The first rendicion of this went out incomplete, so here is the full text. I want to build a nodeless rod, but got in at the very end of the recenttraffic on the subject. I have a splicing block and have ordered 1" springclamps. Any help and/or suggestions on the following areas would begreatlyappreciated; suggested glue,clamping technique,suggestions for splicespacingin gluing up, sawtooth patterns (heard mention of this - presume it meansalternate strips have splice leaning in opponsite dir), and any otherconsiderations, techniques, etc. that I havn't thought of. My thanks inadvance for any help you send. Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 19 13:06:39 1996 Subject: Re: Building Nodeless (completed) Hi Richard. Since I have had many problems gluing the splices, I will offer some advice on that subject. The spring clamps are the way to go. Much faster and easier, and I think better results too. Something I do now, which I would suggest, is to wrap a piece of sand paper around a mill file, and give the splices a quick sanding before gluing. I noticed a much more uniform fit if I did this. You can tell if you have a good fit, by holding the splice together and hold it up with a light in the back. you should see no light coming through. If you see some light, then you should sand a bit. If you use URAC 185, make sure its dry before you start working the strips. This can take a while if you don't heat the strips(100 F) after about a day in the clamps at room temp. I must admit, I had more than a slight problem with gluing, and I am still not sure what the problem was. The other thing that I would advise you to do, is to consider the bamboo you use. For the butt section, dont use the bottom section or two from the culm. By the time you splice, you gain very little in length for those sections. You'll be better off doubling up on another section from the 6' butt culm. Since I have just gone through this stuff for my first rod, If anyone objects to what I have said, please say so. Good luck.Mauro. On Sun, 18 Feb 1996 Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: The first rendicion of this went out incomplete, so here is the full text. I want to build a nodeless rod, but got in at the very end of the recenttraffic on the subject. I have a splicing block and have ordered 1" springclamps. Any help and/or suggestions on the following areas would begreatlyappreciated; suggested glue,clamping technique,suggestions for splicespacingin gluing up, sawtooth patterns (heard mention of this - presume itmeansalternate strips have splice leaning in opponsite dir), and any otherconsiderations, techniques, etc. that I havn't thought of. My thanks inadvance for any help you send. Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 19 16:17:46 1996 Subject: Nodeless news Just FYI, I have been editing an article for my web page written by HansKohl of our mailing list. In it, he describes a method used by Europeanbuilders. It is based around using a sanding disk to make the splice jointinstead of planing. The new article will be posted here (by me) as well ason the web page very, very soon. So if you are considering doing nodelss and haven't made all the equipmentyet, hang on and read this before you make another move. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 19 16:48:40 1996 Subject: Re: Building Nodeless (completed) I would like to add one thing I am now doing on my nodelessrods. I offset the splices 2" in the sawtooth. This gives like a 3 - 3node(less) stagger pattern. I found the glue failure I previouslyhad occurred when two splices came perfectly together to a point inthe sawtooth pattern. This offset gives the splices added strength sincethere is always a supporting lateral strip. I haven't had any failures since. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 19 21:13:47 1996 Subject: Hans Kohl's nodeless article Here is the article sent to me by Hans Kohl. I've done a little editing onit at his request. The article and a link to the GIF are available on theweb FAQ or you can go direct tohttp://www.cybercom.net/~bconner/knotless.html Knotless RodbuildingAn easier way to prepare your splices for knotless rod building. Over the past 15 years knotless (nodeless) rod building became quitepopular here in Europe. Almost every professional rodbuilder uses thismethod. I think it's not because the knotless rods are superior to the "oldfashioned" ones, but because of lack in knowledge how to treat bambooknots. Some builders think that knotless rods are stronger than withknots,but I don't agree with them. Mother nature created a bamboo that isincredibly strong, and it's quite difficult to be better than nature. Anyway, a guy called Piet Veugelers is expected to be the first Prof.rodmaker that uses the knottles way, here in Europe. If that is true, Idon't know. I talked to him and he to me, he used the book "A Masters Guideto Building a Bamboo Flyrod" by Hoagy B. Carmichel for this idea. Garrisonused some sort of planing form to get the angle on his small splices(b.t.w. Garrison just built one knottless rod) and this form still does thejob. But there is an easier and faster way. This idea is not mine, but it is quite common here in Europe.We use an electrical engine, for example, an old one from a washingmachine. Attach a round disk to the axle of the engine. The diameter deepends on theengine you use. The stronger the engine, the bigger and heavier (metal??)the disk can be. The faster the rotation of the disk, the faster the job isdone. I've made mine of wood and is about 3 /4 foot) Glue rough sanding-paper on the disk, the rougher the better. Make some kind of working table in front of the disk. The height of theworking table has to be on the center of the round disk. You can use wood,metal or plastic, as long as it has a smooth finish. Attach a metal strip to the working-table at the angle you like to get onyour splices. The smaller the angle, the longer the glue line will be. Alonger glue line is stronger. I use an angle of 6 deg. This is everything you need. All you have to do is push the splices betweenthe metal guiding strip and the fast rotating disk. Keep the enamel to thedown side. The enamel side is flatter and goes more smoothly over theworking table. The whole job for one 7 or 8 foot rod is done in about 10 to 15 minutes. Ifpossible, do the job outdoors because there's a lot of dust. I myself do itindoors, but use an old vacuum-cleaner to get rid of this dust. If you makesure that the position of the working table is stable to the engine/diskthe angle will always be exactly the same, so gluing the splices will givea very professional look. If done right, you can't see the glue-lines. Just see the GIF (KNOTLESS.GIF at sirronald ftp), this will tell more thenwords! Success with you're rodbuiding and tight lines, !!! BE SURE TO WEAR GLOVES!! THE SANDING-PAPER TAKES THE SKIN OF ASFAST ASTHE BAMBOO !!! Hans Kohl You can reach me by e-mail at: j.w.e.kohl@ptt-telecom.unisource.nl from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 20 08:46:03 1996 Subject: Bad Bamboo? I'm having a problem with blank that I just completed. When I cleaned it upafter gluing it up and checking it, one of the tips takes a set easily. Iheat treated at 375 for 7 minutes. I use Nyatex glue, so I heat temper therod again for 3 hours at 235. I'm sure of my temps. and times. The question is, am I doing something wrong or do I just have a bad batchofbamboo? Thanks for any help that you can give me. Jonathan ClarkeJonRC@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 20 13:20:36 1996 Subject: Re: Bad Bamboo? You may be heat setting too hot. Wayne suggests 24 hrs at 100 F. Or you could have a bruise in the bamboo. That happened to me a few years back when I first started this stuff. The whole culm had a bruise all the way around. It took an easy set, but only at the one spot. If its only one spot, may be a bruise. Check the remaining culm. It may show the same. Hope this helps.Mauro. On Tue, 20 Feb 1996 JonRC@aol.com wrote: I'm having a problem with blank that I just completed. When I cleaned itupafter gluing it up and checking it, one of the tips takes a set easily. Iheat treated at 375 for 7 minutes. I use Nyatex glue, so I heat temper therod again for 3 hours at 235. I'm sure of my temps. and times. The question is, am I doing something wrong or do I just have a bad batchofbamboo? Thanks for any help that you can give me. Jonathan ClarkeJonRC@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 20 13:28:42 1996 Subject: RE: Bad Bamboo? I'm having a problem with blank that I just completed. When I cleaned itupafter gluing it up and checking it, one of the tips takes a set easily. Iheat treated at 375 for 7 minutes. I use Nyatex glue, so I heat temper therod again for 3 hours at 235. I'm sure of my temps. and times. The question is, am I doing something wrong or do I just have a bad batch ofbamboo? Thanks for any help that you can give me. Jonathan ClarkeJonRC@aol.com I'd like to ask a question, more for my own information ratherthan a fix for your problem.... Did you flex your splines before you glued them? I bend mysplines to a point where I begin to wonder if they will breakseveral times as I build a rod. Once when I first split the culm,once when I have them rough planed, and once just before Iglue them. Sometimes I find a spline that breaks, or takes asevere set when doing this. I was just wondering if your splinespassed this test but ended up taking the set after you finishedgluing them anyway. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 21 00:08:50 1996 Subject: Re: Bad Bamboo? I'm having a problem with blank that I just completed. When I cleaned itupafter gluing it up and checking it, one of the tips takes a set easily. Iheat treated at 375 for 7 minutes. I use Nyatex glue, so I heat temper therod again for 3 hours at 235. I'm sure of my temps. and times. The question is, am I doing something wrong or do I just have a bad batchofbamboo? With my oven (built according to Wayne's instructions), I'd say that 7minutes at 375 is an insufficient heat treatment. The oven takes a fewminutes to return to 375 after the sections are put in. Most of my rods --especially those that aren't flamed -- stay in at least 15 minutes, andusually 20. The best thing to do is to experiment with scrap strips,bendingand breaking samples from the same culm after say, 10, 15, 17, 20minutes.You'll find that the enamel of sufficiently-treated cane will darkensomewhat, as will the end grain. Personally, I swap the strips end for end in the oven after 10 minutes,check itdoesn't look dark enough or if a lot of steam is still coming out of theoven. The steam will taper off when the cane is treated sufficiently. Ofcourse, 20 minutes at 375 could make charcoal in your oven. The point istoexperiment on scrap, not simply take a number from a book and run withit. Ithink Garrison's oven must have had plenty of mass, probably didn't losemuchtemperature when the strips went in, because his treating specs don't dothejob with my oven. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 21 13:52:21 1996 Subject: Bamboo Blanks I'm looking to start my first bamboo rod from a blank with ferrules alreadattaached or at least having the rod planed and glued as a blank. I have tried to subsribe to the Rodmakers list but mail was bumped. Please e-mail me directly. TIA, Russell LavigneAnachemrpo@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 21 15:13:35 1996 Subject: looks like I made it to list Just received acknowledgement of my subscription to rodmakers. I am looking to purchase a small bamboo blank, something like a 6 or 6.5or 7foot blank for a 4 wt. Suggestions? TIA, Russell LavigneAnachemrpo@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 21 19:13:44 1996 Subject: Bad Bamboo - Good Lessons To All Following the discussion brought back fond remberences. Soof the best lessons come from mistakes and shows that rodmaking isstill learned best from the school of hard knocks. It is hard to berough with the strips as Mauro states, but it will save you effort inthe long run. I rather break a strip then a customer. Also everyoneneeds to find the system / techniques that work for them as with whatis the best temp / time. Everyone preheats differently and have ovenswith different characteristics. So good lessons learned here for all Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 21 23:47:24 1996 Subject: Re: Bad Bamboo? Jonathan -I have seen and heard of other rods that could be described as 'softsetting' - the sections would hold somewhat to the direction that theywerebent to - however the cause of the problem wasn't bad bamboo but rathermoisture - more aptly 'moisture reenrty' - my question to you would be isthere a chance that you might have regained moisture into the one tip.I know of others that have had moisture reenter finished strips - thesolution is to dry the sections out and that is done by reheating - to startweight the section on an accurate grain scale (used in handloading bullets)and record this measurement. Then put the strip into an oven with thetemperature set at 110 - 115 degrees and leave the section there to dryforseveral days - rechecking the weight occassionally - if the problem ismoisture you will see a reduction in weight - in the case I remember themostthe rod in question reduced in weight by 6 percent and the actionincreasedin speed as well.I would at least recommend trying this - it won't damage the sectionbytrying and it would eliminate this as a possible problem. Also you should have recieved some mail from me lately - if youhaven;tplease let me know WayneCasnovia, MI from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 23 07:01:44 1996 Subject: Re: Hans Kohl's nodeless article Thanks to all who responded to my request for "nodeless" information, andespecially to Hans Koh whose solution for beveling the splices isingenious,indeed. Such a easy and simple solution to an otherwise tedious process! Toadd to that stratagy, somewhere there is a catalog with a circularsandingdisk that fits onto a standard table saw - will report source when found -orif anyone knows of source, please post it on the list. Also, a builder inMichigan says the spring clips sold in stationary stores work just fine,andthey are probably cheaper than the 1" wood working clips sold by TrendLines (which are inexpensive enough and which I bought) but they may beharder to use due to small size. One area that I request further info on isthe saw tooth pattern. Am I correct in assuming every other strip has thesplice leaning opposite to its neighbors? What is the reason for this?Also, any comments concerning a stratagy of staggering the splices asonewould have the missing nodes would be of interest. Other than requiringonemore splice per strip, it seems reasonable to me (who is yet to build anodeless rod). Best Regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 23 09:22:32 1996 Subject: Re: Hans Kohl's nodeless article Hi RichardAs I understand it, the stagering can be as little as a few inches. I think a 3-3 pattern would work well. Since I still have not done this my info is NOT from experience. To all.I would like to ask if anyone has tried doing an intermediate wrap over the splices ( at least the ones in the butt which are not under the stripper guide). Probably not needed, but would make the splices stronger. Another question to all:has anyone blown up a rod while fighting a fish?My father is a cabinet maker, and thinks I'm crazy when he looks at the thin tip. I know he would have a big laugh if I came home one day with a rod in three pieces instead of two. With my luck, one of my splices will probably give up while I'm fightingthe biggest brown I've ever hooked in my life.:).Mauro. splice leaning opposite to its neighbors? What is the reason for this?Also, any comments concerning a stratagy of staggering the splices asonewould have the missing nodes would be of interest. Other than requiringonemore splice per strip, it seems reasonable to me (who is yet to build anodeless rod). Best Regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 23 18:07:00 1996 Subject: Re: Hans Kohl's nodeless article Richard I use the 3 - 3 splice pattern and offset the center of thesplices about 2" now. This seems to work fine. I have done about8 rods this way now. As for the power sander method - Tim Allen would be proudof these guys. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Feb 23 19:17:17 1996 Subject: Binder pulley idea Take a look at http://www.cybercom.net/~bconner/Router.GIF for an ideaonhow to make the pulleys for the Milward binder using a router instead of alathe. Any comments will be welcome. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Feb 25 18:10:13 1996 Subject: Serratted Ferrules Dipping into the list's fount of wisdom again. This question does not deal with aesthetics or history; good hearty physics, so maybe I won't come updry. Are the serrations/thinning really of any value in protecting the cane from the ferrule? I asked this of an old rodmaker/metalworker and he said "No, if the NSwas flexing the windings would separate". That makes sense, but is contrary to established wisdom. I'm asking this question because an old (100yr+) and dear rod that I would like to fish (I hooked the largest trout I've not landed on this rod) had a loose ferrule. I've removed the ferrules but I wonder if I should thin and serrate the ends before re-installing. The ferrules are looong (the female 11/64 is 2.75", the female 17/64 is 3.25") and this might be moreincentive. However, there is some nice ropework and other knurling that might belost. The cane has withstood the ferrules, thus far. ???????? Opinions/erudition appreciated. Reedrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 26 21:41:59 1996 ith a list member on a computer problem and am turningto others for help. System - Mac 6100 running soft windows Problem - when running Hexrod can not run 3- piece rod info - skips byferrule info The program was wrote in GWbasic and then made into an exe file usingQuickBasic - The choice menu is simply a list of 'if' statements where I havechanged the integer value to a constant and look for a match with a goto tojump to the right routine. Now, I know that several of you might comment about 'get a life and arealcomputer' but any insight to a cost effective solution would beappreciated.I can post a listing if needed. But remember I learned programming on anIBM1130 which is about as obsolete as my K & E log-log slide rule. I wonder -how many are saying 'what's a slide rule?' Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 26 21:40:20 1996 Subject: RE: Serratted Ferrules Are the serrations/thinning really of any value in protecting the cane from the ferrule? The first couple of rods I made, I only thinned the tabs and left themsquare. After a little usage the epoxy on the thread windings lookedlike they cracked. That is, there was a thin white line right at the pointwhere the tabs ended going through the epoxy (flexcote). I didn't likethis happening, so I tried serrating the tabs as mentioned in Wayne'sbook. End of problem. I serrate the tabs on the ferrules on all my rodsnow. Darryl Hayashida---------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 26 23:02:26 1996 Subject: Ferrule Serrations -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- I don't think that serrartions have any effect one way or the other.Having made ferrules with and without, I can see little difference inperformance.With a serrated ferrule, there is a slight advantage in that theserrations allow the butt ferrule to expand slightly over the taperingbutt section. Thus, the maker may take off less cane at the ferrulestation. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 27 06:06:00 1996 Subject: Help!! Mr Wizard (resent) I have been working with a list member on a computer problem and amturningto others for help. System - Mac 6100 running soft windows Problem - when running Hexrod can not run 3- piece rod info - skips byferrule info The program was wrote in GWbasic and then made into an exe file usingQuickBasic - The choice menu is simply a list of 'if' statements where I havechanged the integer value to a constant and look for a match with a goto tojump to the right routine. Now, I know that several of you might comment about 'get a life and arealcomputer' but any insight to a cost effective solution would beappreciated.I can post a listing if needed. But remember I learned programming on anIBM1130 which is about as obsolete as my K & E log-log slide rule. I wonder -how many are saying 'what's a slide rule?' Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 27 08:36:49 1996 Subject: Plane Identification Can anyone Identify the model number and any other information about theSargent plane on page 75 of Garrisons book? I was showing the planesusedin the book to a collector friend and he would like to add that one to hiscollection. Since he gave me a Stanley 9 1/2 in pristine condition I wouldlike to return the favor. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 27 15:33:52 1996 Subject: Re: Help!! Mr Wizard (resent) At 07:17 2/27/96 -0500, you wrote:I have been working with a list member on a computer problem and amturningto others for help. System - Mac 6100 running soft windows Problem - when running Hexrod can not run 3- piece rod info - skips byferrule info The program was wrote in GWbasic and then made into an exe file usingQuickBasic - The choice menu is simply a list of 'if' statements where I havechanged the integer value to a constant and look for a match with a gototojump to the right routine. Now, I know that several of you might comment about 'get a life and arealcomputer' but any insight to a cost effective solution would beappreciated.I can post a listing if needed. But remember I learned programming on anIBM1130 which is about as obsolete as my K & E log-log slide rule. I wonder-how many are saying 'what's a slide rule?' Wayne Have you tried running it with 4 piece rod info? If so and it runs ok Iwould suspect a logic error in the 3 piece subroutine. If you get the sameerror as when running 3 piece info I would suspect a logic error in allsubsequent subroutines that follow the 2 piece info. Just a fewthoughts on narrowing down the problem for further troubleshooting. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 27 15:35:53 1996 Subject: Re: Help!! Mr Wizard (resent) Hi Wayne.I spoke to a computer guy here at work.His advice, is to first try running the origional basic program running on the MAC, using GWbasic. I hope thats possible. I don't know the 6100 at all. If it runs then you're OK, and he can compile it athis end. If he is on the list, then he can try already it since he got the program by email. If the origional doesn't run, then there is some incompatability. The advantage of running the basic program, is that you may get an error message, which could help.Hope this helps.Mauro. On Tue, 27 Feb 1996 WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: I have been working with a list member on a computer problem and amturningto others for help. System - Mac 6100 running soft windows Problem - when running Hexrod can not run 3- piece rod info - skips byferrule info The program was wrote in GWbasic and then made into an exe file usingQuickBasic - The choice menu is simply a list of 'if' statements where I havechanged the integer value to a constant and look for a match with a gototojump to the right routine. Now, I know that several of you might comment about 'get a life and arealcomputer' but any insight to a cost effective solution would beappreciated.I can post a listing if needed. But remember I learned programming on anIBM1130 which is about as obsolete as my K & E log-log slide rule. I wonder-how many are saying 'what's a slide rule?' Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Feb 27 21:21:42 1996 Subject: Re: Help!! Mr Wizard (resent) Wayne, James, Wizard?? I don't know if this is any help, but, I'm running Wayne's program on my660AV using SoftWindowsx Performa , insignia solutions vers 1.03, (re- keyedforthe 68040) and other than the tedium, sorry Wayne, of the input stream itruns fine. With the exception that it will not print. I'm sure thats my lackof understanding of the DOS required config. Don't give up on yourWindow's84.. It's still the most elegant solution. Couldn't pass up the shot at the95 wannabe's.You might call Insignia...I'm going to attempt to convert Hexrod to a ligit Mac app. I,ll give it toWayne if successful and he can exercise ownership rights.Good Luck Jerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 13:07:54 1996 Subject: Slope and Rod Action I have been pondering taper designs over the last fewmonths, trying to put rod actions into reproducible numbers.I started by graphing most of the rods that I had the tapers for. Many thanks to Wayne Cattanach for putting up with my manyquestions. I started to suspect there was a relation between the slope of thegraph and speed or action. If you plot the diameter of a rod on the Yaxis, and the length of the rod on the X axis, you can then determinethe slope of the taper. The following is a list of the slope of a rodI consider to be fast for a bamboo rod, the 7' 0" DT4 2 piece inWayne's book, compared to the slope of a rod I made from aGarrison taper, which I consider to be slow. (The slope has beennormalized to get rid of all the zero's in front of the number. ie. 2.4is really .0024 inches of increased diameter divided by 1 inch ofincreased length) Slope:Station Cattanach Garrison0 0.4 2.25 2.4 4.210 4.0 3.615 4.2 2.820 2.8 2.825 3.0 2.630 2.8 2.435 3.6 2.440 4.4 2.645 1.6 2.450 1.8 2.855 4.2 2.660 2.8 2.665 2.8 2.670 5.6 2.875 0.0 3.080 0.0 0.085 0.0 0.0 The Cattanach taper has more complexity built in to the design is higher in the faster Cattanach taper than the Garrison taper. So, when designing your taper, if you want a faster rod, increasethe slope. But, be careful because if you increase the slope toomuch, you will end up with a butt section that is too thick at thehandle. You can deal with this in a couple of ways I can think of.One way is to make a hollow handle section to get rid of theextra weight. Another way is to determine what diameter of therod the line weight you are using stops flexing the rod. Fromwhat I've seen for a 4wt line it's about .250 inches. When youreach this diameter, where ever it is on your taper, decreasethe slope to one until you reach the end of the handle section.In a 7 ft. rod this strategy gives a diameter in the range of .300at the handle, which is reasonable. If anyone thinks I am off base on this, please let me know. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 14:06:32 1996 Subject: Re: Slope and Rod Action Darryl makes some good observations re: slope and rod action... So, when designing your taper, if you want a faster rod, increasethe slope. But, be careful because if you increase the slope toomuch, you will end up with a butt section that is too thick at thehandle. ... Okay, some thoughts... I think it's not _just_ increasing the slope but also the associated*decreases* in the slope, or in other words the hinges. In looking atDarryl's slope figures there is a drastic *reduction* in slope betweenthe 15" & 25" stations. Slope:Station Cattanach Garrison0 0.4 2.25 2.4 4.210 4.0 3.615 4.2 2.820 2.8 2.825 3.0 2.6 So, a reduction in slope would mean that there is LESS wood betweenthose stations, than the adjoining sections. Hence, it would seemthat the rod would flex more at that particular point. My gut feelon this would be the overall effect of a faster 'feel' or 'snap' tothe rod. So, what do you think... Mike- ps: I've never plotted the slope before, but have plotted thestress curves generated from Wayne's program. The increasesand decreases in slope become very apparent when viewing theassociated stresses. It doesn't take much of a reduction inslope at all, to send the stresses skyrocketing. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 14:22:04 1996 Subject: Re: Slope and Rod Action Darryl, Have you graphed the stress factors. I have found that this gives me agreatrepresentation of the rod. Jonathan ClarkeJonRC@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 15:25:27 1996 Subject: Re: Slope and Rod Action Darryl, Have you graphed the stress factors. I have found that this gives me a greatrepresentation of the rod. Jonathan ClarkeJonRC@aol.com Yes, I did, but perhaps due to my incomplete understanding of stressfactors, I couldn't relate stress factors to rod action. I understand stress factors in relation to resistance to breaking, that is, if the stress factor exceeds a certain value for bamboo, it will break, but how does it relateto rod action? Do you try to keep stress factors constant, increase ordecrease to speed up the rod action? How much do you increase ordecrease the diameter to get the desired stress factor? Slope is a number that relates the diameter of the rod to adjacentsections.A higher number means the resistance to bending will be greater inrelationto the adjacent thinner section. You can pretty much tailor when the nextsection of rod will start working during a cast by stepping up the slopeat strategic points. As Mike observed there is a drastic step up of slopebetween 15' and 20' in Wayne's taper. I suspect that is to have a sectionof the rod working when very little line is out. There are a couple of other jumps in slope about half way and 3/4 the length of the rod. I suspect theyare there to get those sections to start working when more line is outpastthe guides. Wayne has also mentioned that he likes to put a "hinge" justin front of the handle to help initiate a roll cast. The slope reflects this also. Stress factors are extremely useful in determining the diameter of a rodfora given line weight. I'm proposing slope is a way to determine rod action(fast, medium, or slow) no matter what the line weight is. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 15:19:10 1996 Subject: Re: Slope and Rod Action As Mike observed there is a drastic step up of slopebetween 15' and 20' in Wayne's taper. I suspect that is to have a section^^^^^^^^^Sorry, I forgot to hit the shift key...That's a really long rod! Darryl from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 15:44:48 1996 Subject: Selling something on this newsgroup I have something dealing with rodmaking that I want to sell, but I'munwilling to violate any rules or conventions about commercial messagesonthe web. Will the person who's monitoring please advise me. I'm going tohave a web page up and running one of these days, but I don't know when.When I do, may I post it here? It's very slow progress when one gets intothis business, and I'm groping around. Thanks for any advice. FrankArmbruster from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 15:51:35 1996 Subject: Re: Slope and Rod Action I think Darryl's method is very interesting. The slope of the rod must be related to the action, since a straight piece of bamboo (no taper) would bend in a perfect parabola called a slow action by most.A straight tappering rod will become "faster" with the increase in slope. I went one step further with Darryl's analysis, and plotted the "second derivative" i.e. the rate of change of the slope. If you look at Garrison's second derivatives , the numbers are very close to zero most of the time.Cattanach's tapers deviate from zero quite a bit more, but they tend to average about zero. This means that there is no curvature to the rod. Eventhough Wayne's taper changes quite a bit from the straight taper, both rods tend to average about a straight line from the butt to the tip. second derivatives: Station Cattan Garrison0 2 25 1.6 -0.610 0.2 - 0.815 -1.4 020 0.2 -0.225 -0.2 - 0.230 0.8 035 0.8 0.240 -2.8 - 0.245 0.2 0.450 2.4 -0.255 - 1.4 060 0 065 2.8 0.270 -5.6 0.275 0 -3 This is no surprise, since the method used by garrison started out with a straight line. Has anyone considered making a rod which follows more of an exponential function rather than a linear function? That may yield a very interesting action. just my $0.02Mauro.On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Hayashida, Darryl - HADN wrote: Darryl, Have you graphed the stress factors. I have found that this gives me a greatrepresentation of the rod. Jonathan ClarkeJonRC@aol.com Yes, I did, but perhaps due to my incomplete understanding of stressfactors, I couldn't relate stress factors to rod action. I understandstress factors in relation to resistance to breaking, that is, if the stress factor exceeds a certain value for bamboo, it will break, but how does it relateto rod action? Do you try to keep stress factors constant, increase ordecrease to speed up the rod action? How much do you increase ordecrease the diameter to get the desired stress factor? Slope is a number that relates the diameter of the rod to adjacentsections.A higher number means the resistance to bending will be greater inrelationto the adjacent thinner section. You can pretty much tailor when the nextsection of rod will start working during a cast by stepping up the slopeat strategic points. As Mike observed there is a drastic step up of slopebetween 15' and 20' in Wayne's taper. I suspect that is to have a sectionof the rod working when very little line is out. There are a couple ofother jumps in slope about half way and 3/4 the length of the rod. I suspecttheyare there to get those sections to start working when more line is outpastthe guides. Wayne has also mentioned that he likes to put a "hinge" justin front of the handle to help initiate a roll cast. The slope reflects this also. Stress factors are extremely useful in determining the diameter of a rodfora given line weight. I'm proposing slope is a way to determine rod action(fast, medium, or slow) no matter what the line weight is. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 16:34:39 1996 Subject: Re: Selling something on this newsgroup Frank Armbruster writes... I have something dealing with rodmaking that I want to sell, but I'munwilling to violate any rules or conventions about commercialmessages onthe web. ... I personally see no problem with someone letting the rest of us knowthey something to do with rodmaking, they want to sell. I feel ONEpost to the list describing what's for sale would not be a problem.After that, all business should be conducted offline, between theparties interested. Comments... Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 17:04:42 1996 Subject: Re: Selling something on this newsgroup Subject: Re: Selling something on this newsgroupDate: Wednesday, February 28, 1996 4:21PM Frank Armbruster writes... I have something dealing with rodmaking that I want to sell, but I'munwilling to violate any rules or conventions about commercialmessages onthe web. ... I personally see no problem with someone letting the rest of us knowthey something to do with rodmaking, they want to sell. I feel ONEpost to the list describing what's for sale would not be a problem.After that, all business should be conducted offline, between theparties interested. Comments... I see nothing wrong with selling something through the list, ifas you said, the actual business is conducted off line afterthe initial post, and the subject line starts with FOR SALEand then states what it is. That way people can delete themessage before downloading it if it doesn't interest them. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 17:32:46 1996 Subject: Re: Serratted Ferrules Hello Reed:The old saw "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind. Also, thevalue of the rod as an antique obviously would go down due tomodification.I've had gaps to show at the ferrule edge on a variety of rods. I ambeginning to beleive it has to do with qual of ferrule fit, adhesive type andapplication and the thread work. Just a few thoughts.Regards, R Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 17:51:32 1996 Subject: Re: Selling something on this newsgroup It does not bother me either just as long as the detailed negotiations aredone offline. Paul from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 18:12:12 1996 Subject: Slope and rod action applied Okay fellow list members, time to stick my neck out andactually apply my theory on slope and rod action.Originally this taper was the 7ft. 4wt. 2 piece from Wayne'sbook. It has been modified by increasing the slope, so itshould have a faster action. It should still use a 13/64 ferrule.I have not actually made this rod yet, I am still putting togethertwo rods for a couple of friends. If my theory is correct this should be a speedburner of a fastrod, while still retaining a sensitive tip section and Wayne'shinge in front of the handle to initiate a roll cast better. Station Diameter Slope0 0.068 0.45 0.070 2.010 0.080 3.015 0.095 4.020 0.115 4.025 0.135 3.030 0.150 3.035 0.165 3.840 0.184 5.045 0.209 2.050 0.219 2.055 0.229 3.060 0.244 3.065 0.259 3.070 0.274 5.275 0.300 0.080 0.300 0.085 0.300 0.0 Please tear it apart, analyze it, and tell me what you think,good or bad, about it. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 18:28:36 1996 Subject: Re: Serrated Ferrules It seems, from replies I've received, that the cushioning effect of serrated/split ferrules is not significant enough to tempt me to alter my old untapered ferrules. Actually, when you look at the stainless ferrules that were sometimes used, that becomes more obvious, they couldn't flexat all. Thanks for the good advice. I'll be fishing the ol' thing soon. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 19:00:50 1996 Subject: The plan ! I have mentioned in the past that I am working on descriptive text andgraphs to address the lack of information about rod designs. My friendLarryBlan and I have had these long late night discussions and the concepts areset in place - it's just the time of putting it to paper - The general ideasI've share here as I will with the completed project. The self imposeddeadline is now set for the Trout Bum BBQ.Also I have had many requests to do a hand ons workshop as well. Whatwehave come up with is to do this after the formal agenda on friday(afternoon)evening. I will have all the tools and workbenches at the 'clubhouse' -thereis no time limit and no fee - but it would be nice to have a rough numberofinterested bodies. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 19:53:18 1996 Subject: Re: Slope and rod action applied A problem that I see with using just the segmented slope of a rodtaperis this the dimension used to develope the ratio will change by a smallpercentage as you deal with differing line weight rods. A 3 weight roddesigned to the same stress curve as a 5 weight will have slightlydifferentsegmented slopes because of the amount of bamboo needed to carry theweightof the bamboo itself. John Brokstrom up in BC wrote a program thatapplies aslope theory. Now how much error is here again linked to the degree of lineweight change.Also a design method based on dimensions will have problems when asectional change is made (2 piece to 3 piece) because it neglects to dealwith the ferrule moments.On the other hand several of the thoughts are correct. By increasing theoverall slope of a rod does increase the rods speed - however to maintainthecharacter of the rod the butt will need to be increased at a greater ratethan in the tip section. And to change line weights a simple vertical shiftin the dimensional graph would be close - but here again a small amount oferror would be created simply because of the mass of the bamboo.Once you start looking at the fine details it becomes enough to drive aperson to fishing. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 20:57:00 1996 Subject: Re: Trout Bums (was The plan !) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:09:03 -0500 From: WayneCatt@aol.com Subject: The plan ! Also I have had many requests to do a hand ons workshop as well. Whatwehave come up with is to do this after the formal agenda on friday(afternoon)evening. I will have all the tools and workbenches at the 'clubhouse' -thereis no time limit and no fee - but it would be nice to have a rough numberofinterested bodies. Well, the golden handcuffs permitting.... I'd love to make this one. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Feb 28 21:15:29 1996 Subject: Re: Slope and Rod Action Darryl writes, Yes, I did, but perhaps due to my incomplete understanding of stressfactors, I >couldn't relate stress factors to rod action. I understand stressfactors in relation >to resistance to breaking, that is, if the stress factor Somebody correct me if I am wrong but what the stress factors and graphshelpme understand the action of a rod. The stress factors could indicate thepoint that a rod will break, but more significantly with x number of feetofline on the rod at a given time it will stress (or flex) the bamboo. Thehigher these numbers the more stress (flrexure) you will get at that point.The 7' rod in question has a dramatically high stress factor at 10" fromthetip and tapers down dramatically from there. The 6'3" that I like so muchhasstresses in the tip from 10"- 20" and an additional point at 50", these (f)factors are not as high so the action is spread over a greater part of therod. The 7'9" rod the taper is like a Garrison taper. The stress curves allowme to compare and to visualize the action of a rod. When I plot a curve, Iplot it every inch. My understanding of stress curves is incomplete, my understanding ofslopesis less complete. The stress curves, for me have been very helpful invisualizing the stress, flexure, action of a given bamboo rod. Just an idea that has helped me understand, these are all parts of thepuzzle from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 29 11:02:53 1996 Subject: Re: Slope and Rod Action The stress factors could indicate thepoint that a rod will break, but more significantly with x number of feet ofline on the rod at a given time it will stress (or flex) the bamboo. Thehigher these numbers the more stress (flrexure) you will get at thatpoint.The 7' rod in question has a dramatically high stress factor at 10" from thetip and tapers down dramatically from there. The 6'3" that I like so much hasstresses in the tip from 10"- 20" and an additional point at 50", these (f)factors are not as high so the action is spread over a greater part of therod. The 7'9" rod the taper is like a Garrison taper. The stress curves allowme to compare and to visualize the action of a rod. When I plot a curve, Iplot it every inch. Thanks everyone for their input on my slope and rod action theory. I find this post to be particularly interesting because it begins to giveme an insight into how to relate stress curves to slope changes.If the stress curve was plotted on the taper I posted yesterday, thereshould be high points at the point just before a jump up in slope. Thisshould give an indication of when a particular section of the rod willstart flexing as more line is aerialized in a cast (more weight of the line).This would mean I would have to design for the longest cast that waspractical and make sure the rod was flexing for most of it's length whenthat length of line is out. Conversely I would also have to plan for apractical minimum cast and make sure I had at least a little sectionof the rod flexing at that point also. I am at work right now and I don't have my Garrison book with me.Can somebody post the stress curve formula? The most useful forme would be if someone already has it in an Excel spreadsheetformula form that I could plug in. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 29 14:48:32 1996 Subject: Re: Slope and Rod Action I am at work right now and I don't have my Garrison book with me.Can somebody post the stress curve formula? The most useful forme would be if someone already has it in an Excel spreadsheetformula form that I could plug in. Darryl Hayashidadnh@chevron.com Darryl,The formula for Garrison's stress curve can be written as a combinationofa line and a parabola. The formulas that I use are as follows: S: stressSl: linear component of stressSp: parabolic component of stress Smax: maximum stress (tip) (~180000:220000)Smin: minimum stress (butt) (~100000:140000)La: action length of Rod Line:Sl = Smin + (Smax -Smin) * (La - x) / La Parabola:Sp = Smin + (Smax -Smin) * ((La - x) / La)^2 Combined:S = a * Sl + b * Sp; (a + b = 1) Typical values to match the Garrison curves would be: a = 0.35; b = 0.65(or vice versa; I'm at work right now also). I have an Excel Spreadsheet that does these calculations and the othersrequired for rod design that I would be glad to send to you if you can tellme how to mail a non-text file; I just design computers; I don't know howto use them too! regards,David Hoodhood@fc.hp.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 29 17:02:01 1996 Subject: Exponential functions -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Indeed, someone has thought of making a rod taper from an exponentialfunction. Garrison. Zimny from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 29 18:14:05 1996 Subject: Planing form for sale Rodmakers. I have one set of pent forms left from the small productionrunI made last year. I'd like to sell them. Design, dimensions and slope are experienced rodmaker who wants to make five-sided rods, they'll workwell.If you're interested, email me atbootstrap@earthlink.netand we'll talk. Frank Armbruster from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 29 19:00:46 1996 Subject: Tips vs Butts Now that the taper discussions are running hot and heavy. I haveone little question. Does one slope fit all. I find that we canreally effect the action in the tip section more than butt. Whatabout the concept of having a dry fly tip and wet fly tip? At thelast show I was at I saw a Per Brandon rod with 4 tips - 2 for a 4 weight and 2 for a 5 weight. Now how do we correlate all this in one formulae solves all, or one graph. There seems to be a pointwhere attention to the tip section takes precedence over the butt. Now, a good hinge in the butt is important for roll casts - but doesit affect the action or line weight as much as the tip section does??? Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Feb 29 21:12:55 1996 Subject: Re: Slope and Rod Action DarrylI'm in the process of converting Waynes Hexrod, including Graphs andperhapsslope, to Excel. I hope to be generating a DOS and Mac version . I'll makeit available in a Zip file -- but only with Waynes permission and blessing,I'f youre interested.Jerry Foster