from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Apr 1 03:14:46 1996 Subject: Re: Archives and Administrivia Michael, THANKS FOR THE UPDATE. CAN YOU SEND ME A CRASH COURSE ONACCESSING THEARCHIVES.I DIDN'T SE IT IN MY INITIAL INFO. THANKS> JB Well folks, the 'official' word just came down from thepowers to be regarding sirronald.wustl.edu - the currenthome of the RODMAKERS archives. The machine will be shutdown on June 30th. Currently in the archives, there is a wealth of informationthat is free for the taking. I'd sure hate to see theresource lost. If there is anyone out there with a machine that might besuitable for the RODMAKERS archives, please let me know.We don't have a whole lot of time left. ORN (Obligatory Rodmaking Note) The last strip of a 6ft. 6in. 4wt will be planed this evening.Hopefully gluing this weekend... Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Apr 1 09:04:18 1996 Subject: Re: finishes etc. Locally I get PPG from Painter's Supply & Equipment (Grand Rapids) -perhapsa good start would be to check the Yellow Pages under paint. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Apr 1 11:14:56 1996 Subject: A story you might enjoy I posted this story on the Fly Tie listserve in response to the question"What is a dubbing rake?" Thought you might get a laugh out of it as well. DISCLAIMER: The following original story is a bit off-color, so if you findthis sort of thing offensive, please don't read it! "The Story of the Rake" One day long ago, little Poly Dubbing was skipping cheerfully through themeadow while on her way to see her friend Veniard the material supplier,little knowing what the day held in store for her. She had just come to the riverbank when who else but C. Ramik, the localrake, popped out of the bushes. There was a costume ball that evening intown and he was dressed as a rabbit. He gave her a line, "You're going tomarry me! As far as I'm concerned, you're half-hitched already!" "You Wulff! I shall never marry you!", she sniffed, hooking the corner ofher mouth in a sneer. "You're only ribbing me because I'm a little grayling around the temples.",he laughed. Poly cast a derisive look his direction and turned in a tight loop. "No!I'm going to marry Paul. He's young.", she said, heading upstream. "Paul? Young?" the rake hooted. "Look closely at his hair and necksometime and you'll see that they are dyed! I thought you'd only goingafter a natural..." She swirled at him. "Don't you badger me about his neck, you caddis! You'dlook a little grizzly too if you worked so near the furnace. If he heardyou talking to me this way, he'd schlappen you silly. Now I think ourconversation is dun. Neck indeed!" She threaded her way past him, but hegrabbed her by the throat until chenilled before him. "You've refused me for the last time", said Ramik "If I'm going to be putdown, you shall sulk along with me. By the time I'm finshed with you, noone will want you. You'll end up a char-woman!" She tried to drag free, but he was determined to leader over to a tree. Hebound her down to the shank of the tree using a thin kevlar thread ofimmense strength, all the while admiring her plump body. Now that he hadher in his clutches, the foxy rake removed his hare's mask and gave an evillaugh. Helpless, he teased her with some velcro he had cunningly attachedto a stick. She bristled at him. This kind of treatment really got herhackles up! She struggled against the thread, cursing it. "So you think mythread base, do you?", the rake smiled, "How's about I take you for alittle spin, Miss Dubbing?" Ramik took off his fur body and showed her his Dickerson. There weremanybranches on the lower part of the tree, but luckily he had tied her off farenough down that he had room enough for his head. Poly was horrifiedwhenhe started to peel away the fluff underneath her cape. He was trying tohold her in an improved clinch. Choosing her moment, she lashed out withher foot and mashed down his barb, but good! "Thunder and Lightning!", hescreamed, "Just look what you've done to my jungle cock!" He reeled, tryingto avoid her backlash. Just then, over the hill came a welcome sight. It was Poly's brotherAntron! Even though Antron had been at the pub and his head was a littlelacquered up, he knew who and what he saw across the meadow. Glaring atthe smutting form still bent over in front of his sister, he made acrashing strike at the rake, hitting him in the gut. The rake went downseeing dancing nymphs before his eyes. "I'll finish you now!", criedAntron, applying a neat whipping. Antron picked up the rake and threw himacross and downstream. "Skues me, but your fly is all wet!" shouted Poly, after the slowly sinkingrake. But she couldn't get a rise out of him. And that is the end of our tale. Sorry, I couldn't help myself!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Apr 1 22:04:23 1996 Subject: Re: A story you might enjoy Hello Bruce:If you do not want yur stories off-color, try Dale Clemens color preserver.It really is great, tho some consider such a real payne. Cheers, RT from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Apr 1 23:40:34 1996 Subject: Re: A story you might enjoy Hello Bruce:If you do not want yur stories off-color, try Dale Clemens colorpreserver.It really is great, tho some consider such a real payne. Cheers, RT Shall I apply it with my pinky? Or will I need a whole garrisonof helpers? ;'> Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Apr 2 05:12:43 1996 Subject: RODMAKERS digest 235 -Reply Bruce, You mentioned a Fly Tie list just before you started your Dubbing Rakestory. Since I tie my own trout flies, I 'm interested to subscribe to a list Johan Saayman.jsaayman@avitronics.co.za from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Apr 2 09:12:36 1996 Subject: Re: Archives I've had a couple requests for information on how to accessthe RODMAKERS archives. First off, unfortunately the archivesare not accessable via email - you must have FTP (file transferprotocol) capability from your account to access the completearchives. If you are unsure as to whether or not you have thiscapability, your system manager should be able to tell you. If you have access to the World Wide Web, you can access thearchived messages of the list and some GIF's via Bruce Conner'sexcellent 'Cane Rod Building FAQ' Web page. Also Gordon Johnson's'Cane Rod Links' web page has links to Bruce's. Bruce's link: http://www.cybercom.net/~bconner/rod.html Gordon's link: http://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml To access the entire archives via anonymous ftp: ftp sirronald.wustl.edu (if your name-server is down use 128.252.150.1) At the login prompt enter: anonymousAt the password prompt: enter your email address You should now be at an ftp prompt... Enter: cd /pub/rm (This will put you into the RODMAKERS directory) dir (This will list the directory contents) binary (If the file you want download is NOT a text file otherwise disregard) get filename.ext (This will download the file to your computer) bye (This will sign you off) The above should work from most any machine that has FTP capability.If you have any problems or questions, please let me know. Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Apr 2 10:19:22 1996 Subject: Re: RODMAKERS digest 235 -Reply Bruce, You mentioned a Fly Tie list just before you started your Dubbing Rakestory. Since I tie my own trout flies, I 'm interested to subscribe to a list Johan Saayman.jsaayman@avitronics.co.za in the subject line. No text in the body of the message. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Apr 2 21:22:46 1996 Subject: Re: No Subject Jon,I get "address not known" when I tried to reach you atCaneRods@aol.com.Myapologies to the list.Thanks ,Jon for the bit on the mine near Yellowstone. we' ve beenfighting it thru the Beartooth Alliance for several years now. Now that theE.I.S.is due out some of the influential opponents will make their viewsknown after reading the E.I.S. Hopefully we cane beat it.Hank Woolman. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Apr 2 23:09:19 1996 Subject: Re: Guides I've just finished gluing, binding, and sanding a 2 piece 7' 3/4 DTCattanachrod blank. I'm now in the process of buying my guides and have noticed thatthere are American and British snake guide patterns. Which is better,and/ormore traditional? Futhermore, what are the inside diameters of thedifferenttip tops? (ie. a #4 tip top ID = ?, #5 tip top ID = ?) There are at least 2 different diameters of silk thread, "A" and "00". Onmygraphite fly rods I've used "A" nylon. What size of silk thread worksbetter Thanks, Bradford Edgren from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Apr 3 07:28:17 1996 Subject: re: european bamboo Hello european rodbuilders, 2 adresses of bamboo purchasers: Rutenbauwerksttten Michael HlsenbeckAm Walde 1-242929 WermelskirchenGermanyPhone: 02196 89311 FluesnapperenPreben Dorph JorgensenRosenlundsvej 249230 SvenstrupDenmarkPhone 0045 98381476 GreatingsMichael Brandt (Germany) from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Apr 3 11:00:29 1996 Subject: Wooden Plane - Kit or plans Hello All,I've been surfing the Internet and ran across this Web page: http://www.mcn.org/a/rhock/hockhome.htm It's the Web page for Hock blades. Very interesting page.They have a kit for a wooden plane, and they also sellthe plans if you want to make one yourself. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Apr 3 11:27:36 1996 Subject: Sharpening Plane Blades Hello again,Still surfing the internet, and I ran across this interestingmethod to sharpen plane blades using sandpaper.The really fine sandpaper (1200 and 2000 grit) canbe found in automobile paint supply stores. Darryl Hayashida *************************************************************************** Condensed Version or How to sharpen a plane blade withsandpaper. Mercilessly butchered into a Condensed "How to"Version by J. Gunterman from the Original by theSteve Lamantia. To lap the back behind the cutting bevel: Use a very light coatings of 3M "77" spray adhesive to temporarilyglue small 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" rectangular pieces of sandpaperalong the edge of a sheet of 1/4" plate-glass. The paper to use is Aluminum Oxide in grits 50, 80, and 100, andSilicon Carbide (wet-or-dry to you lay people) in grits of 150,180, 220, 320, 400, 600, 1200, and 2000. The plate glass shouldbe placed with its edge flush to the edge of the workbench.Grits can be skipped, if desired, but more time on each grit will thenbe required to fully remove the scratches from the previousgrit. Using the gradual progression as listed, however, will requireonly about a minute or so with each grit." Lap the end one inch of the back of the iron on each grit in turn.You could use it wet or dry. About every ten seconds or so, stop and brush off the sandpaperwith a whisk broom and wipe the blade off on your shirt. About ten minutes after starting, you should have gone from 50 griton up to 2000, and there will be a mirror finish on the backof that iron the likes of which must be seen. Then jig the blade in a Veritas honing jig or go it by hand-- Clamp the blade down in the Veritas blade-holder device, takingcare to have the bevel resting on the glass perfectly along bothedges. Adjust the microbevel cam on the jig up to its full two-degree microbevel setting -- and hone away on the 2000-grit Flip the blade over on the sandpaper several times, hone and lap,hone and lap, each time gentler and gentler, to remove the littlebit of wire edge The resulting little thin secondary bevel should be quite shiny bythis time. Remove the blade from the jig, and perform the "shave some armhairs off" test, or the sharpness test of your own choice. Of course, the ultimate test of a plane iron's sharpness is what itdoes on wood. When it is all done, peel the sandpaper from the glass and throw itaway. Then, scrape the little bit of residual adhesive from theglass with a razor blade, a quick wipedown with acetone on a pieceof paper towel, and the cleanup is done in a minute. No oil, no water, no mess, no glaze or flatness problems to worryabout, and a cutting edge that is Scary-Sharp (TM). from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Apr 3 17:54:14 1996 Subject: Re: Guides Bradford Like everything, choice of snake guides and stripper guides are amatterof personal choice. On the tip top issue - that is easier - size 5 equates to 5/16thswhich thenequates to .0781 in thousandths. For Wayne's tapers which the tip isaround.070 across the flats a size 5 tip usually works well. On the thread issue - it is back to personal taste. I perfer using 00size Chris Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Apr 4 10:51:52 1996 Subject: BAMBOO IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST new book release---------> BAMBOO IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST On June 24-25, 1994 one hundred bamboo professionals and enthusiastsgathered in Gold Beach, Oregon to focus on the future of the fledglingbamboo industry in the Pacific Northwest. The two days that followedwereloaded with the intensity only "bambuseros" (a word coined for Americanbamboo lovers) can achieve when brought together in large groups toexchange knowledge. Those who attended gained new understanding abouttheprocess of developing bamboo as a agro-forestry crop for our region. The active group listened to a day of presentations by a series ofspeakers. The next day, a work session of bamboo specialists andinterestedpeople moderated by local host, Gib Cooper, produced a list of sevenattainable goals for developing the the bamboo industry in the PacificNorthwest. One of the goals was to compile the presentations and worksession into a book. BAMBOO IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST is the result of Gib Cooper's editingsevenmanuscripts and the work session. The book (and workshop) is the first ina series of attempts to organize and quantify the business of bambooproduction, product development and marketing. The ninety pages discusspaper pulp development, bamboo history and ecology, bamboo on the farm,results of bamboo in permaculture plantings, timber bamboo poleproduction,and include an interesting article on developing a bamboo plantation inVietnam. In addition to providing a summary of the workshop, the editorupdates progress of the goals since 1994. Also included is a list ofparticipating organizations and individuals. Sales of the book will aid in funding the 1997 Pacific Northwest BambooAgro-forestry Workshop scheduled for June 21-22, 1997 at CentraliaCollegein Washington state. The workshop is actively supported by the PacificNorthwest Chapter of the American Bamboo Society (PNC-ABS). BAMBOO IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST is now available. To have a copyshipped toyou in the USA send a check made out to PNC-ABS for $18. Mail the checktoPNW Bamboo Workshop, 28446 Hunter Creek Loop, Gold Beach, OR 97444.Copiesof the book can also be purchased for $15 at meetings and events of thePNC-ABS. Contact Dean Hines, 15211 -91st Ave. SE, Snohomish, WA 98290forinformation about joining the society. Dues are $10 a year. The PNC-ABS isthe largest regional chapter of the American Bamboo Society. /H\\H H //HH /H \ Gib Cooper H\ Voice/Fax: 541-247-0835 /H\\H \/H H Tradewinds Bamboo Nursery /H bambugib@harborside.com / HHH H\H\\H\ 28446 Hunter Creek Loop H \ H\H\HH\ HH /H\ Gold Beach, OR 97444 H /H H HH H/H\HH \\ http://harborside.com/bamboo/ H H HH\\H\H HH // H H HH /HH H H from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Apr 4 10:51:52 1996 Subject: Re: Consignments Selling bamboo fly rods can be as rewarding and as frustrating asmakingthem. I know of new rods selling from as low as $450.00 to in excess of$1500.00. It is a classic catch - 22. First you need to get recognized as arod maker but often low prices make folks question if they are gettingtheirvalues worth. A second catch - 22 is that if you use a broker (Rod Dealer)they promote the rods for you but at a discount of as much as 30%. There are several avenues of self promoting your work. Magazineadvertising - sports shows - and just doing a slide show for the local flyfishing group. Because the kids want to sell some rods this summer Irecently booked a year of 1/6 page advertising - a first for me - the cost$240.00 per issue. For several years I have done some of the fly fishingshows - booths cost $350.00 - $850.00 per show - add in travel costs,hotels,and misc expenses.If you have ever started a business you are familiar with the fact thatpeople just don't rush to your door and the first few years incomes are putback into the company. When I started in the heating business back in 1980Iwent with no income for 2 1/2 years. Well like it or not when you want toturn a hobby into trying to make money at it the same comittment may berequired.I know that this is not what you want to hear - nobody does. But youwill need a plan - a business plan makes a person look at the many optionsormarket areas that you want to pursue and how you intend to reach thatarea.Here again I am going to throw in my standard disclaimer that somemaydisagree but to avoid disappointment I will offer up the same advice that Ihave given to as many as will listen.The first thing you want to do is to look at as many classic and currentmakers work as you can. Learn the details and make a list of the areasthatyou feel that you need to improve on. Secondly be a guru at what you do -when someone asks a question about rod making be able to explain it tothem -gain their respect. Also be a guru at the fishing style that you want tomarket your rods to. I dry fly fish on small streams and I can advise aclient on that type of fishing. If they want a salmon rod they need to findanother maker - better yet I will recommend one. My personal goal is tomakea persons most favorite rod. Why? Because they will tell the world howhappythey are with it.The balance in all this is that you need to establish yourself and thattakes time. And hopefully rod making will take you where you want - Iconsider myself fortunate - I have met some of the nicest folks that aretobe known - I've shared my enjoyment of fishing and rod making with myfamily- and I make a few bucks at it each year. Life is good. Best of Luck Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 5 21:18:16 1996 Subject: Re: Guides Bradford wrote:there are American and British snake guide patterns. Which is better,and/ormore traditional? The British (usually called English) pattern are reverse twist, this means they point the opposite way of the modern American pattern. The English snakes were used by many of the best makers in the U.S. until about the 1920's, when seemingly all but F.E.Thomas switched to the Americanstyle. I favor the English style not for the twist but for the generally low profile, they hold the line closer to the rod and the look appeals to me. Reed Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 5 22:06:19 1996 Subject: New(?) rod building web site... I found a very nice series of web pages detailing the cane rod buildingprocess. They were put up by Mikael, a Swedish builder, and are worthvisiting. Here's the address... http://www.skelleftea.se/utbildning/balder/personal/ba- mma/sidor/rod1.htm I've made a link to them from my page too! http://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml Cheers,Gordon from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 5 22:52:04 1996 Subject: Re: Another cane rodbuilding website (commercial) Hey, speaking of websites- The Bootstrap website is now up and available http://home.earthlink.net/free/bootstrap/./webdocs/./Questions and comments are invited.If you visit, you'll see that I have a space for links to other rodmakingsites. Reciprocal links are invited. If any of you who have located sitesI don't know about, please forward the URLs to me so I can include them.Thanks, Frank from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 6 11:44:28 1996 Subject: forms and oven I recently received a roughing form from Bootstrap. It has adjustable push pull screws like the finish form. one side is beveled for the first angle other side for the untapered triangle. I just finished rough planning a butt section for a 7' 4wt rod. It to worked great, I am having one made with a shallow bevel since I split my tip culm into 32 strips. The original form depth is .187, for the tips I think somewhere around .125 will work better for me. If any one is interested in Bootstrap forms, you should check out their web page or give Frank a call at 303-745- 1353. Also I am finishing up a Hot air oven. I would be interested in hearing from any one that has been using one. If I understand the plans correctly the suggested heating time and temps are 350 degees from 15 to 30 minutes. Is this better for this type oven than the usual 6-7 minutes at 375 degrees used by Garrison and Cattanach. Any suggestion will be appreciated. Jim Fillpot from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 6 20:47:15 1996 Subject: rod tapers hey you with the band-aids on your fingers, are all the contemporary rodmakers building Garrison tapers,and who believes the math? I'm new to all this so I'm just testing the water.Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 6 21:18:47 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Can you supply an address for the Bootstrap Web page? TIA. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 6 21:34:48 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Try this: http://home.earthlink.net/free/bootstrap/./webdocs/./ Regards, RT from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 6 22:29:05 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Can you supply an address for the Bootstrap Web page? TIA.Sure, it's at http://home.earthlink.net/free/bootstrap/./webdocs/./I appreciate your interest. Frank from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 12:04:45 1996 Subject: Desperately seeking A.J. A.J. Thramer, Just learned from Terry Ackland that you are now outin the land of cyberhex. Nice to know I won't have topay phone charges to Oregon to bug you anymore. :-) Each day I come home and dash to the front door looking for my 5wt. but,alas,it's not there. :-( Are we close? richard Hope you and your family have a good holiday! r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 12:07:30 1996 Subject: Re: Desperately seeking A.J. A.J. Thramer, Just learned from Terry Ackland that you are now outin the land of cyberhex. Nice to know I won't have topay phone charges to Oregon to bug you anymore. :-) Each day I come home and dash to the front door looking for my 5wt. but,alas,it's not there. :-( Are we close? richard Hope you and your family have a good holiday! r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!*****************************************Richard, Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 19:47:33 1996 Subject: Garrison Calculations Dear Fellow Rodmakers: I would like to share with you some of my impressions of thetaper/stress curve calculations as presented in The Master's Guide.... Ihave noticed several postings concerning the accuracy of computerprogramswhich perform these calculations and felt compelled to write this note. Ihave been making bamboo rods here in Atlanta for about 3 years whichputs mesquarely in the neophyte category as far as producing quality cane rodsgoes. While I might be a novice as far as rodmaking, I do haveconsiderableexperience in the type of calculations presented in The Masters Guide....I have a Ph.D. in computational physics and have taught physics at theuniversity level for over 10 years. I say this not to impress anyone, butto give some credence to what I am about to say. from a physicists pointofview, the theory behind the calculation runs the gamut from naive tomisleading to just plain wrong. It would take me pages of explanation tocritique every error, but I will try to give you some feeling for two of themajor ones. ( It's hard to choose just two). Virtually all the moment calculations are incorrect for a system asdynamicas a fly rod. The definition of a moment as it is presented in The Master'sGuide is incomplete. The way a moment is defined is the moment armtimesthe force times the sin of the angle between the two. Garrison completelyneglects the angle between the force and the moment arm assuming thattheangle is 90 deg. The sin of 90 deg. is 1 so the sin term does notcontribute to the calculation if the angle is 90 deg. However if you draw adiagram of a "loaded" rod, it is easy to see that the angle between say thetip and the force due to the line is nowhere near 90 deg. In order to knowthat angle and thus calculate the moments you would have to calculate thebend in the rod which requires a knowledge of the stresses. In order togetthe stress curve you need to know the moments. This vicious circle(needingto know the moments to calculate the moments) is what people mean whentheysay that the system is non-linear. There are methods for solving non-linearequations but they are very complex and require a knowledge ofdifferentialequations and numerical analysis way beyond the capabilities of all buttheexperts. Another major omission is in the calculation itself. Let's assume for themoment that the theory is sound, that the calculation is appropriate forthesystem. Whenever you do a calculation involving physical quantities suchaslength mass etc. , the error in those quantities contributes to theaccuracy of the result. For example let's say you wanted to calculate thearea of a rectangle. The width has been measured to be .123 inches to anaccuracy of .0005 inches. But let's assume that the height can only beestimated by "eye" to 4 inches plus or minus 1 inch. To state that thearea is .492 sq inches is incorrect even though 4 * .123 is .492. There isa rule that states that when two measurements are multiplied or dividedthere % errors are added. The %error for .123 is ( .0005/.123) * 100 =.41%. The %error for the estimated height is (1/4)*100 = 25% thus theerrorin the area is 25.41% or 25% for practical purposes.25% of .492 is .123 so the best we can say about the area is that it is .5sq inches plus or minus .1 sq inch, the other digits being insignificantcompared to the error. This rather contrived example does have a point.The " Impact Factor" in the Garrison Calculations is an estimated number. Iwould argue that it is a totally fictitious number but I will let thatsleeping dog lie. While there is no discussion of it's accuracy in thepresentation I feel that it can't be any more accurate than plus or minus25%. If you do the error analysis on rod taper example calculation in thebook taking into account only the error due to the impact factor you comeupwith an error in each "flat" dimension of plus or minus approx. 75%. Thismeans that for a given stress curve any flat measurement that fallswithinplus or minus 75% of the calculated value is equally valid. And this isassuming that the theory is 100% correct. Of course all this begs the question why does it "work". The calculationsclearly produce serviceable rod tapers. I can only guess at the answer, butthe history of science is littered with examples of erroneous theoriesthatgive approximately correct results. I would also question whether thestress curves are even close to what they should be. Has anyone actuallymeasured the stress in a fly rod and compared the results to thosecalculated? My guess is that it hasn't been done. The usefulness of thetapers has more to do with the intuitive understanding that Mr. Garrisonhad would like to leave this pontification, rod design is still an art, notscience. Barry Rhodes Ph.D.brhodes@atl.mindspring.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 20:56:16 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Barry,I've felt for some time that Garrison's impact factor of 4 was anartificial figure. While I don't use formulae to arrive at my tapers I havefelt for years that most of the programs don't give the precision that theyseem to promise, the reality being far more complicated than ourcalculations. So I guess I'll keep on graphing my tapers and playing gamesempirically. I've come up with some great tapers and some doozies. I guessthat's what makes it fun.Hank Woolman from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 21:43:40 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Dear Fellow Rodmakers: I would like to share with you some of my impressions of thetaper/stress curve calculations as presented in The Master's Guide.... Ihave noticed several postings concerning the accuracy of computerprogramswhich perform these calculations and felt compelled to write this note. Ihave been making bamboo rods here in Atlanta for about 3 years whichputs mesquarely in the neophyte category as far as producing quality cane rodsgoes. While I might be a novice as far as rodmaking, I do haveconsiderableexperience in the type of calculations presented in The Masters Guide....I have a Ph.D. in computational physics and have taught physics at theuniversity level for over 10 years. I say this not to impress anyone, butto give some credence to what I am about to say. from a physicists pointofview, the theory behind the calculation runs the gamut from naive tomisleading to just plain wrong. It would take me pages of explanation tocritique every error, but I will try to give you some feeling for two of themajor ones. ( It's hard to choose just two). Virtually all the moment calculations are incorrect for a system asdynamicas a fly rod. The definition of a moment as it is presented in TheMaster'sGuide is incomplete. The way a moment is defined is the moment armtimesthe force times the sin of the angle between the two. Garrisoncompletelyneglects the angle between the force and the moment arm assuming thattheangle is 90 deg. The sin of 90 deg. is 1 so the sin term does notcontribute to the calculation if the angle is 90 deg. However if you drawadiagram of a "loaded" rod, it is easy to see that the angle between saythetip and the force due to the line is nowhere near 90 deg. In order toknowthat angle and thus calculate the moments you would have to calculatethebend in the rod which requires a knowledge of the stresses. In order togetthe stress curve you need to know the moments. This vicious circle(needingto know the moments to calculate the moments) is what people meanwhen theysay that the system is non-linear. There are methods for solving non-linearequations but they are very complex and require a knowledge ofdifferentialequations and numerical analysis way beyond the capabilities of all buttheexperts. Another major omission is in the calculation itself. Let's assume for themoment that the theory is sound, that the calculation is appropriate forthesystem. Whenever you do a calculation involving physical quantities suchaslength mass etc. , the error in those quantities contributes to theaccuracy of the result. For example let's say you wanted to calculate thearea of a rectangle. The width has been measured to be .123 inches to anaccuracy of .0005 inches. But let's assume that the height can only beestimated by "eye" to 4 inches plus or minus 1 inch. To state that thearea is .492 sq inches is incorrect even though 4 * .123 is .492. There isa rule that states that when two measurements are multiplied or dividedthere % errors are added. The %error for .123 is ( .0005/.123) * 100 =.41%. The %error for the estimated height is (1/4)*100 = 25% thus theerrorin the area is 25.41% or 25% for practical purposes.25% of .492 is .123 so the best we can say about the area is that it is .5sq inches plus or minus .1 sq inch, the other digits being insignificantcompared to the error. This rather contrived example does have a point.The " Impact Factor" in the Garrison Calculations is an estimated number. Iwould argue that it is a totally fictitious number but I will let thatsleeping dog lie. While there is no discussion of it's accuracy in thepresentation I feel that it can't be any more accurate than plus or minus25%. If you do the error analysis on rod taper example calculation in thebook taking into account only the error due to the impact factor you comeupwith an error in each "flat" dimension of plus or minus approx. 75%. Thismeans that for a given stress curve any flat measurement that fallswithinplus or minus 75% of the calculated value is equally valid. And this isassuming that the theory is 100% correct. Of course all this begs the question why does it "work". The calculationsclearly produce serviceable rod tapers. I can only guess at the answer,butthe history of science is littered with examples of erroneous theoriesthatgive approximately correct results. I would also question whether thestress curves are even close to what they should be. Has anyone actuallymeasured the stress in a fly rod and compared the results to thosecalculated? My guess is that it hasn't been done. The usefulness of thetapers has more to do with the intuitive understanding that Mr. Garrisonhad would like to leave this pontification, rod design is still an art, notscience. Barry Rhodes Ph.D.brhodes@atl.mindspring.com Barry, very interesting article,I would not want to argue with you,you areobviously better qualified than I.What I do know is that rods producedusingGarrison tapers that are difficult for most flyfishermen to cast,yet manycontemporary rodmakers are reproducing these tapers.This is a pitybecauseyoung anglers are getting turned off bamboo believing that all bamboo rodsare expensive noodles. The Garrison book has done a great service in keeping bamboo rodmakingalive butI feel the actual tapers have produced a Kings New Clothes situation. Onlya fool can't see how great they are. What is needed to convert all these composite flyfishermen is fast dryflyrods with more wood (grass) lower down.regards Terry Ackland, please check out my web pagehttp://www.odyssee.net/~hexagon/ from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 22:14:34 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Jim, I have experimented with a whole raft of types of tempering tools. FromGarrison's gas driver to flaming to whatever at a host of differenttemperatures. If you get the Planing Form, I gave a presentation @ Merrittget-together on my findings. At any rate, what I use now is a convectionoven of my own design c/w temperature controls, recirculating fansystmensetc. and the time/temp. that seems to work best for me is 360 F @ 15 minutes. The oven design does not require rotating thesectionsas does Garrisons/others as the oven is designed with a recirculatingchamber. If your oven doesn't have a recirc. system, you should likely add acouple of minutes. It would appear from all the info I have seen that 350F @ 15 or 375 @ 6>7yeilds about the same result. What is critical however is not getting thesections too hot for too long. The high heat destroys the cane. Experimentatad and see what you like. from what I found, tempering maybe a whole lottodo about nothing and adds little to the function of the rod. Makes a nicecolor though. Catch me on my e-mail address if you need more info. Regards, Don Andersen Also I am finishing up a Hot air oven. I would be interested in hearing from any one that has been using one. If I understand the plans correctly the suggested heating time and temps are 350 degees from 15 to 30 minutes. Is this better for this type oven than the usual 6-7 minutes at 375 degrees used by Garrison and Cattanach. Any suggestion will be appreciated. Jim Fillpot from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 22:48:42 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Dear Fellow Rodmakers: I would like to share with you some of my impressions of thetaper/stress curve calculations as presented in The Master's Guide.... Ihave noticed several postings concerning the accuracy of computerprogramswhich perform these calculations and felt compelled to write this note. I Barry Rhodes Ph.D.brhodes@atl.mindspring.com Barry, very interesting article,I would not want to argue with you,you areobviously better qualified than I.What I do know is that rods producedusing regards Terry Ackland, please check out my web pagehttp://www.odyssee.net/~hexagon/ Barry/Terry/others I like a whole lot of other "went" the Garrison route. Not a bad road totravel. Did discover that his rods worked well into the butt. Figured theonly way I would,at least in my own mind, understand the cane workings istobuild a whole lot of rods starting from a given rod and work out fromthere.I have made about 25 of 7'9" rods now shaving a little there and puffing itup a little elsewhere. Know what - - If you start with a 5/64 tip and workabout 0.013" to 0.014" of change/5" of travel down the rod shaft thethingswork pretty good. If you add a 0.0005 to each 5" station 10" from the tipat the 0.013 or 0.014" rate of change if gets faster. If you want a "buttswinger", shave a little on the butt section. The Garrison calculations confused the hell out of me. Measured a rod Iliked and went from there. I know that computers lend themselves toendlessand even mindless review of data, but it seems like from what Burce saidthat the calculations that Garrison used were wrong. Doesn't that suggestthat all the computer generated tapers from Garrisons's work could alsobewrong or did they just work out OK by accident. I would expect thatGarrisonfirst figured out what he wanted in a rod and then attempted do develop atheory to match. What I also noticed is except for the top 15" and a bump@the ferrule, Garrison's rods are approximately a linear taper. If you what acomplex taper, Garrison's system won't work.So much for my two bits. Regards to all, Don Andersen from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 23:40:46 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Barry, Where were you when I asked for input on improving the computation oftapers/stresses a while ago? I would have loved to use something betterthan Garrison's math. Since no one gave me any indication they wantedsomething better, I simply reproduced it in a Windows format. If you would like to give me some details about how to procede with theimproved math, I'd be happy to see if I could whip it into some sort ofuseful code. Despite what some others have said about computers, I think there may besome advantage to running designs through a WELL designed simulator. Ifthe model is good, then the results should be reproduced in the cane. Yes,it will be complex to get the model right, but that's what computers are You'll all excuse me now, I've had a long day and I think I'm getting cranky!:') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 23:41:02 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Jim, I have experimented with a whole raft of types of tempering tools. FromGarrison's gas driver to flaming to whatever at a host of differenttemperatures. If you get the Planing Form, I gave a presentation @ Merrittget-together on my findings. At any rate, what I use now is a convectionoven of my own design c/w temperature controls, recirculating fansystmensetc. and the time/temp. that seems to work best for me is 360 F @ 15 minutes. The oven design does not require rotating thesectionsas does Garrisons/others as the oven is designed with a recirculatingchamber. If your oven doesn't have a recirc. system, you should likely addacouple of minutes. It would appear from all the info I have seen that 350F @ 15 or 375 @ 6>7yeilds about the same result. What is critical however is not getting thesections too hot for too long. The high heat destroys the cane. Experimentatad and see what you like. from what I found, tempering maybe a wholelot todo about nothing and adds little to the function of the rod. Makes a nicecolor though. Catch me on my e-mail address if you need more info. Regards, Don Andersen Also I am finishing up a Hot air oven. I would be interested in hearing from any one that has been using one. If I understand the plans correctly the suggested heating time and temps are 350 degees from 15 to 30 minutes. Is this better for this type oven than the usual 6-7 minutes at 375 degrees used by Garrison and Cattanach. Any suggestion will be appreciated. Jim Fillpot I believe 6-7 minutes in the Garrison book must be a typo, you will onlychase a little surface moisture outT.Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 11:20:08 1996 Subject: physics of fly rods Hello all, I'm not sure if this came up yet, but there is an article, with references, available at the address below. It also has MPEGs of thier results of the simulations. I downloaded the text which has thecode (fortran) but it is Postscript and I don't have the resources to view it. If someone does and can convert it please let me know, I'm very interested in its contents. http://www.mit.edu:8001//people/kommers/fly.html Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 15:03:35 1996 Subject: computer generated tapers do any of the computer programes that have been devised to generate rodtapers take into account heat treatment and moisture content? The Payneheat treatment department was out of bounds to visitors and seeing thattheymade consistantly the best flyrods their process must have made thedifference. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 15:40:18 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations I was visiting my folks out in the country this past weekend.Up to this point in my rodbuilding I've struggled enough withthe mechanics, but I thought there will be plenty of time so I took Garrison and my calculator and I tackled the taperdesign chapter Saturday night... I guess I was disappointed because there are so many thingsnot taken into account in Garrison's model. The first thingI thought of is that, when the rod is loaded (bent), the moments due to the line being cast are only partially appliedat the tip guide, but also at all other guides which bear uponthe line. The greater the load, the farther from the tip the majority of the load is applied. Like Barry says, its a functionof the angle which the line makes with the rod at every guide. On Sunday I put some nails in my Dad's garage andsuspended an old fiberglas flyrod and hung weights on the tipguide, and on line strung thru every guide, every other guide,etc., and traced the rod curves. Then I started playing with pencil and paper and tried to remember my caculus and linear algebra from 20+ years ago. I ended up with a lot of wastedpaper and a headache. I'll return to it someday. But I wouldn't want a hobby that was all figured out by someoneelse and all that was left to do was apply the theory. There'splenty to chew on and experiment with and argue about. I like it.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 20:16:24 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Jim, I have experimented with a whole raft of types of tempering tools. FromGarrison's gas driver to flaming to whatever at a host of differenttemperatures. If you get the Planing Form, I gave a presentation @ Merrittget-together on my findings. At any rate, what I use now is a convectionoven of my own design c/w temperature controls, recirculating fansystmensetc. and the time/temp. that seems to work best for me is 360 F @ 15 minutes. The oven design does not require rotating thesectionsas does Garrisons/others as the oven is designed with a recirculatingchamber. If your oven doesn't have a recirc. system, you should likely addacouple of minutes. It would appear from all the info I have seen that 350F @ 15 or 375 @ 6>7yeilds about the same result. What is critical however is not getting thesections too hot for too long. The high heat destroys the cane. Experimentatad and see what you like. from what I found, tempering maybe a wholelot todo about nothing and adds little to the function of the rod. Makes a nicecolor though. Catch me on my e-mail address if you need more info. Regards, Don Andersen Also I am finishing up a Hot air oven. I would be interested in hearing from any one that has been using one. If I understand the plans correctly the suggested heating time and temps are 350 degees from 15 to 30 minutes. Is this better for this type oven than the usual 6-7 minutes at 375 degrees used by Garrison and Cattanach. Any suggestion will be appreciated. Jim Fillpot I believe theoking time in Garrisons book to be a typo,cooking for justthat length of will not remove enough moisture.T.Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 22:03:21 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Bruce, I'm sorry that I didn't post this earlier. I do recall you asking forsuggestions. The reason I did not respond is that quite simply there isno way to improve the Garrison Calculations based on anything other thanexperience. If you can use the calculations to design a 7' 4 Wt. fastaction rod and you like the resulting rod you make, who am I to say theequations are wrong. After all "The proof of the pudding is in theeating..." or something like that. A Windows version of Garrison's mathwould be very interesting, both from a historical perspective and as agenerator of useful tapers. If you are interested in reading about somemore recent attempts to model the dynamics of a fly rod, there are manygood references at the web site The Physics of Fly Casting at http://www.mit.edu:8001//people/kommers/refs.html.(This is the same site mentioned in Tom Ausfeld's recent posting.) Youmight try contacting some of the authors and collaborating on a modelingscheme. I would love to see it. Best of luck to you,Barry At 12:30 AM 4/8/96 -0400, you wrote:Barry, Where were you when I asked for input on improving the computation oftapers/stresses a while ago? I would have loved to use something betterthan Garrison's math. Since no one gave me any indication they wantedsomething better, I simply reproduced it in a Windows format. If you would like to give me some details about how to procede with theimproved math, I'd be happy to see if I could whip it into some sort ofuseful code. Despite what some others have said about computers, I think there maybesome advantage to running designs through a WELL designed simulator. Ifthe model is good, then the results should be reproduced in the cane. Yes,it will be complex to get the model right, but that's what computers are You'll all excuse me now, I've had a long day and I think I'm gettingcranky!:') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 22:06:50 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Bruce,In regards to :If you would like to give me some details about how to procede with theimproved math, I'd be happy to see if I could whip it into some sort ofuseful code. I remember a comment from one of Dr. Graig Spolek's papers which pointedout that Garrison utilized equations based on stiff cantilever beams.Since the deflection of a rod can be an appreciable portion of its lengththe stiff beam equations are totally inadequate to give meaning stressvalues for a flexible rod. There is a closed-form solution for predicting the shape, and hence thebending moments, of a uniform cross-section rod that uses ellipticintegrals. See:2. Bisshopp, K.R. and Drucker, D.C., "Large Deflections of CantileverBeams", Quarterly of Applied Mathematics, V.3 (3), pp 272-275, 1945.There is no closed form expression for tapered cross-sections, but Spolekgives a numerical procedure in:20. Spolek, G.A. and Jefferies, S.R., "Analysis of Large Deflections ofFishing Rods", Proceedings of the International Conference onComputationalMethods and Experimental Measurements, Washington, D.C. pp 637-648,1982. If you have any interest in the complexities of this problem and have somefamiliarity with differential equations check out Dr. Spolek's list ofreferences on Jeff Kommers home page:http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/kommers/refs.html Garrison's plots may give some useful comparisons of different tapers,butin terms of actual stress numbers his equations are in error by orders ofmagnitude. Consequently, anyone who has worked out the true solutiondoesnot believe his math. Gordon Judd There are advantages to being self-taught;Fullerton, CA the quality of instruction is not one ofjudd@cogent.net them. -Ted Leeson- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 23:47:56 1996 Subject: Re: Version 2.0 of the leader program Hans, Back in January, you asked me to make a version of the Leader Calculatorwith millimeter measurements. I finally managed to get it done! Sorry ittook so long, but at least it's early in the fishing season. You can find the new program at the sirronald ftp site under the nameeuroleader.exe. If you don't have Visual Basic, you will also need theVBrun300.DLL at the ftp site. Let me know what you think of the program and if I need to make anychanges to suit the metric peoples of the world. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 23:56:33 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Bruce, I'm sorry that I didn't post this earlier. I do recall you asking forsuggestions. The reason I did not respond is that quite simply there isno way to improve the Garrison Calculations based on anything other thanexperience. If you can use the calculations to design a 7' 4 Wt. fastaction rod and you like the resulting rod you make, who am I to say theequations are wrong. After all "The proof of the pudding is in theeating..." or something like that. A Windows version of Garrison's mathwould be very interesting, both from a historical perspective and as agenerator of useful tapers. If you are interested in reading about somemore recent attempts to model the dynamics of a fly rod, there are manygood references at the web site The Physics of Fly Casting at http://www.mit.edu:8001//people/kommers/refs.html.(This is the same site mentioned in Tom Ausfeld's recent posting.) Youmight try contacting some of the authors and collaborating on a modelingscheme. I would love to see it. I actually have been in contact with a couple of the people mentioned in"The Physics of Flyfishing" page. The page owner put me in touch with afellow who is working on a proper simulator for the rod action (and Iassume he is going to include the existing line action code). The projectis ongoing and he says he'll keep in touch with me about progress. Thewhole thing is going to be in FORTRAN, which is a bit of a pain, but oncethe math is worked out, I bet I could port it over to C++ or Delphi orsomething and make it workable for the PC, even if it would be a bit slowon that platform. The Windows version of the Garrison stuff is being tested by a couple ofbrave beta testers right now and should be available Real Soon Now. I willmake an announcement to the group when it's ready. In the meantime, please make some burnt offerings to the gods of springandget rid of this snow and cold!!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 13:54:06 1996 Subject: Bamboo rod coatings Rod Coatings: Want to try some more experiments and would not like to reinvent thewheel.Has anyone been using Gougeon Brothers products - - Wood ExpoxySaturationTechnique (WEST) or similar products for either rod coatings or reel seatcoatings? Please contact me email: dmanders@cci.net.ab.ca regards, Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 15:22:54 1996 Subject: Reel seat question I want to put a little slot in my wooden reel seats, similar to what the Bellington seats have. So far the only tool I've seen that looks like it would do the job is a bull-nose router bit that cuts a half radius - also called a "fingernail". These bits are expensive, and the only ones I've seen advertised have 1/2" shanks, which means I'd need another router besides the bit. Do any of you know of another way? John Carter from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 18:04:49 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Rod Coatings: Want to try some more experiments and would not like to reinvent thewheel.Has anyone been using Gougeon Brothers products - - Wood ExpoxySaturationTechnique (WEST) or similar products for either rod coatings or reel seatcoatings? Please contact me email: dmanders@cci.net.ab.ca regards, DonDon,Ive tried their epoxy for gluing the strips together and that the sectionscame apart when heat was applied for straightening.I called the companyandthey said that the epoxy had no heat risistance.So one tip section and abutt was thrown in a corner.Last year I was having a cleanup and dragged out the two sections, theyhadbeen there about 4 years.I casually flexed the tip section and felt a crackand with a little more flexing the whole tip came apart a the glue line.I,mcertainly glad I did not sell any rods built with this adhesive.The mixturewas right,I purchased a small job sachet,just mix the 2 together.West system might be OK for a coating , its not a very thin material, Icantimagine it doing too much saturating. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 21:19:45 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Hi Don,Arecent bout of experiments with finishes last year led me to one veryimportant conclusion... any coating I tried on a section at best did not helpthe action and at worst and by far the most common it deadened theaction.Of the epoxies I tried (WEST was not one of them) the soft flexible oneswere the worst.The conclusion I came to was simple and staightforward... epoxy don'tcast(please excuse the grammar).I hope this is of some use to you. A.J. Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 22:00:33 1996 Subject: Re: Reel seat question John There's a subtle difference between a fingernail and a bullnose bit..The outside edges of the cut on a fingernail are slightly rounded where as those of the bullnose are not.. the bit you are looking for, in 1/4 in, I presume, can be found at "Woodline,Inc." You can get a catalog by calling them at 1-800-- 472-6950. The one I received had a tag on the pack that says C1215 but I cant find that part in their book?? Best of luckJerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 23:56:55 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings At 12:26 4/9/96 -0600, you wrote:Rod Coatings: Want to try some more experiments and would not like to reinvent thewheel.Has anyone been using Gougeon Brothers products - - Wood ExpoxySaturationTechnique (WEST) or similar products for either rod coatings or reel seatcoatings? Please contact me email: dmanders@cci.net.ab.ca regards, Don Don,I have used the WEST system to refinish the bottom of a boat (its intendeduse). I WOULD NOT use it to coat a rod or reel seat for a couple reasons.I'll give you a little background. The Gougeons are boat builders inBay City, Mi. and are quite well known in the locale. The WEST System wasdeveloped in Britain and marketed in the States by the Gougeon Bros. Itwasused to coat wooden boats for either repair or reducing maintenancetypically needed on wood in a marine environment. In the early to mid 80'sboaters started to notice osmosis blisters in the polyester gelcoats belowthe waterline. This is where use of the WEST system really took off. Therepair procedure involved grinding out the blisters much like a dentistfilling a tooth, then filling the hole in the gelcoat with the epoxy resinand applying an epoxy undercoat to the entire bottom. The epoxy will breakdown from UV in sunlight so it had to be painted over (the preferredmethod)or aluminum powder had to be mixed in with the resin (not recommendedbelowthe waterline). The sailboaters around Bay City are very familier with theproduct and countless numbers of them have used it.Because it is such a heavy consistancy and the problem of breaking downfromUV I would not use it to coat a bamboo rod. It did do a nice job on thebottom of my boat though.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 00:44:12 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Don,Have used WEST system to refinish 30 yr old wood drift boat. Don't thinkitwoykd work very well on a cane rod, I believe it adds an element ofstiffness, at least when used on plywood panels (I can't tell, but that iswhat local boat builders tell me). In addition, it is actually fairly thickand while the technical literature claims it penetrates fairly well, itdoesn't appear to me that it penetrates very much at all.Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 09:31:19 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings This is a little off topic, but... I was at the newsstand last week and thumbed thru a copy of_Chemical Intelligencer_. There was an article on the debate over the secret of Stradivarius' violins. The author reviews the major theories: design, varnish,and wood treatment, and comes down in favor of the latter.He says that chemical analysis of the wood shows it was treated with several substances, including sea salt andgum arabic. Under the varnish, there was volcanic ashused as a wood filler. Stradivarius bought his varnish from a druggist who supplied several instrument makers. Stradivarius tookhis cup personally to pick up varnish, to make sure hedidn't get the dregs from the bottom of the druggist'spot. Anyway, I wish I would have been able to read the whole thingbut proprieter said "This ain't the library" and I didn'thave $9 for the magazine. ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 10:51:56 1996 Subject: Phillipson help Anyone out there have any experience with Phillipson rods?I'm considering removing an aluminum seat from a Peerless.I know I can cut away the old seat, but I'm wondering ifit's possible to remove it in one piece so that the rodcould be restored to original condition in the future. Anyone know what kind of glue Sam used (probably the nastiest he could find)? Thanks in advance for any adviceor suggestions. richard p.s. Would a standard bore seat from Bellinger or Struble fit without modification? r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 11:05:28 1996 Subject: Re: Phillipson help Supposedly Phillipson used resourcinol and had pronounced glue lines from it; he may well have used it on reel seats too. John Friedman from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 11:46:31 1996 Subject: Re: Guides Ref the low profile, reverse twist guides (English pattern). One source isThe Angler's Workshop, Woodland, WA 1-360-225-6359 (cust svc) and - 8641(fax) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 11:46:35 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Hello Bruce:Will your program run on Win 3.1? Re Garrison formula discussion - here is an experience. I have a 7-1/2' # 4 that was literally conceived from folly. It was aflawedcy of the excellent Heddon med-fast, a mod 13. Due to some bad, badplaningforms purchased many years ago (and now corrected), the taper has + .006-.008 its full length. The rod is prob a # 4- 1/2 (like was once made) and isdefinitely a fast tiprod, at first, then bends on down to the grip as theload is increased. No prob with #4 DT and # 8 fluffy cork bug to pick up40'+ and lay out 50'+ w/o false cast. And no prob with a # 16 dry up close.Let me hasten to say that of the many who have cast it, only one otherchapand myself like it. Actually, I love it. The point to all this bs is that I decided to duplicate the action in a # 5,8-0, 3-pc. So, using Wayne's program it was done. First, using the taperof the 7- 6, # 4 wannabe, a stress curve was determined. Then printedsame at1" increments to do the excruciating chore of lengthening the curve byinterpolation. Once done, used the new, longer curve to obtain the newdimensions adjusting for 3-pc and heavier line. Before varnishing andwithguides taped on, the rod was tried. As far as I could tell, the action is aspot-on duplicate. What I am not sure of is the line weight, which truelyduplicates the 7-1/2 in that the # 5 seemed a bit light but a #6 seemed abitheavy, but not enough line was out to really lean into it. It has been myexperience that feel changes when a rod is varnished and guides are woundonand wraps varnished. Will know soon, as it is to be completed by end ofApr.Will report findings. The point in all this is that the Garrison formulas appear to function verywell as a transfer vehicle. To bamboo-building programmers out there: Can someone come up with agoodsolution to lengthening or shortening a stress curve? Themanual/calculatormethod works but takes a lot of time. Such a program should be wellreceived Best RegardsRichard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 12:12:26 1996 Subject: Re: Phillipson help Supposedly Phillipson used resourcinol and had pronounced glue lines from it; he may well have used it on reel seats too. John Friedman Actually, Phillipson didn't use resourcinol. He used something nastier.It made glue lines that are even more pronounced. I know it was very resistent to moisture, but I don't know if heat would break it downor not, and if so, would it also break down the glue in the blankunder the reelseat? richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 12:55:18 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations The point in all this is that the Garrison formulas appear to function verywell as a transfer vehicle. To bamboo-building programmers out there: Can someone come up with agoodsolution to lengthening or shortening a stress curve? Themanual/calculatormethod works but takes a lot of time. Such a program should be wellreceived Yes, my program is in fact designed to run on Win 3.1! I have been thinking of a good way to make a "stretch-shrink" function toadd to the program. Haven't come up with a really good method yet, butseveral are looking good. Then there is the database for comparing tapers,the guide placement option, and so on. Lots of things to add! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 14:13:20 1996 Subject: Japanese Contact I am looking to find a source of Fly Fishing magazines in Japan and or aFFFgroup there. Any information would be appreciated Wayne Cattanach from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 14:33:12 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations I heard something today which I thought applied here." A wise man once said : 'It is better to know something wrong, than to know nothing at all' ". If Garrison's math is "wrong" in certain ways, it is still perhaps the best thing we have. As has been said already by Richard et al it works as a transfer tool. I think Garrison made quite a good start at modeling tapers with mathematics. The next step is to find the flaws and fix them, or start over, now that there is something to fix. Just $0.02Mauro from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 16:07:51 1996 Subject: Re: Reel seat question John, You can make a scraper from a old plane blade/knife etc. and free hand itoruse a file. Was what I did till I could get a proper milling head built formy lathe that would cut the grove.Saw a beading tool in Lee Valley Tools cataloque that might work for yourapplication. The tool can be purchased with blanks so you can build yourownshapes. See page 19 of the 19895/96 catalogue. If you wish their cata. anddon't have it write:Lee Valley ToolsP. O. Box 6295, Stn. JOttawa, Ont. K2A 1T4or call 1-800-668-1807The specilaize in great handtools.Woodcraft in the US may stock what you need as well. No idea how to getintouch with them. Regards, Don A I want to put a little slot in my wooden reel seats, similar to what the Bellington seats have. So far the only tool I've seen that looks like it would do the job is a bull-nose router bit that cuts a half radius - also called a "fingernail". These bits are expensive, and the only ones I've seen advertised have 1/2" shanks, which means I'd need another router besides the bit. Do any of you know of another way? John Carter from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 18:52:58 1996 Subject: Fingernail Router bit The Router bit that I use for reel seat fillers I got from Cascade Tools(800- 235 - 0272) part # C-1215 (1/4 " shaft) - The bit is carbide and costabout$20.00 - Actually when I bought it 6 years ago it cost $14.95 + shipping. Ithas made hundreds of fillers. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 18:53:33 1996 Subject: Computer Calculations In looking I still haven't found the code - but I have rethought theformat for the program. The idea was to depict a antimated deflection board and it includedsomeof the 'fudge' math that is associated with the static method. Startingwitha given load the program would figure deflection using cantilevered beamtheory but would start at the butt and figure deflection using totalmomemts(rod weight and suspended weight) every 1" and then do the geometery tofigure the angular change in rod slope then refigure the next deflection(reflecting angular vectors) and repeat this until the angular change wasequal to 90 degrees (if there was) enough weight to bring the tip to a 90degree vector.Once a program like this were wrote then it could be linked to a timebase emulator to simulate the cast.In reading Dr. Spoleks writings on fly lines and recently on fly rods Isee a fly in the soup - Dr Spolek seems to be trying to maximize theenergyperformance of both line and rods. But there in develops a problem at leastin the way I fly fish. The best illustration I can give is the one that Ishowed Gary La Fontaine in Boston several years ago. In a high velositysystem (rocket rods and lines) any excess energy stored in the fly MUSTdampen itself and how does that happen? Plunge pools. Plunge pools areformedin the surface of the water when the fly line leader connection can't passthe energy fast enough and the tip of the fly line will submerge to releaseexcess energy and send out wakes (ripples) in the surface film. Just whatIneed when I fishing Tricos on mirror surface conditions. On the other handifyou are throwing heavy lines and heavy bugs into strong winds (Steelheadfishing or Saltwater conditions where finesse doesn't count) thenmaximizingperformance does count. Here again knowing what a rod should look like when it is being castwould be helpful. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 19:22:20 1996 Subject: sealing bamboo A couple of years ago I went to a show in Harrisburg pa ,I went as avisitorto meet some friends and support American breweries.I was talking to acrusty spring creek fisherman and I remarked on the number of bamboorods bycontemporary rod makers for sale,he remarked,"none of em are straight".Ichecked around and he was basically right. It was an extremely hot and humid weekend and the building that housedtheshow was like a sauna.Could this be the cause of all the rods twisting off?Im sure the guys never brought them to the show like that.Are the finishesbeing used up to the job?I decided when I got back home I would give itsomeinvestigation. So I was not the only one having trouble straightening sticks and keepingthem straight.I just hated this job,besides sewing the sack that is.Youstraighten the sticks and the twist comes back,not always, and sometimesbefore you put the finish on, sometimes afterward it was neverpridictable."Bamboo has a memory",is how one rodmaker described it to meandit can be worse on hand split rather than saw cut strips. Bamboo is a very hygroscopic material and when made up into a rodsectionthere are more areas for moisture entry. Nodes are filed down creating endgrain along the length as well as the ends.we remove the waxy outercoatingwhich also opens up the grain. The adhesive we use is waterproof but itreadily allows the migration of moisture.Bamboo picks up moisture veryfast,you could build a hygrometer out of the stuff. A bamboo rod will only stay straight if the moisture content it was builtwith does not change.If the rod picks up moisture or looses it throught itsfinish internal stresses will set up and a twist and or kink will develope. We have all seen old rods where the guides are loose and the ferrule needsresetting,often the whipping has come undone.This is due to the finishbreaking down and the bamboo either swelling or shrinking. I honestly believe that the finish as well as a half decent taper is the keyto a good bamboo flyrod. Since that weekind in PA I have been experimenting with variouscompoundsand processes that will seal the bamboo yet not modify it.The Orvisprocesskept the moisture out but did change the action making for a heavier rodanda brittle structure.There is another process using acrylic but I think thiswould also modify the cane.I have been developing a process of my own andItried this out on a blank about a year ago,I ruined the 2 tip sections withsome destructive tests and tossed the butt section in the trunk of my cartoshow a friend in Mass.but I forgot all about it.This was last spring. I found this section a couple of weeks ago underneath a pile of junk whenlooking for some tools.It had been in the trunk for one year,summer andwinter,it was a little out of shape, a tool box was on top of it.I left thesection on my work bench and within 2 days it had returned to its originalstraightness. Have I discovered anything ? I dont know,too early to say.I built a coupleof rods by the same method last summer and before shipping them out Idecided to watch them for a couple of months.They behaved excellentlykeptstraight even when the tips where supported by their ends only at an angleof about 20 deg. for 3 weeks.Tips will generally sag under their ownweightafter this length of time. Terry Ackland. comments welcomed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 20:50:00 1996 Subject: computer aid I know computers are great, if I was not fooling around Writing this on akeyboard I would be in my workshop making some beer money.Is it just me or do others out there feel that too much faith is put incomputers? Where I work computers are working hard filling up blueboxes.Everyone has a computer,no real work seems to get done, just listsandprojections.No wonder all the factories are moving to Mexico nobodywants towork any more, just peer into a monitor. Sailing that is a love of mine; last year at the start of the America cuprace we were told that the USA were using the most powerful computersin theworld to design the sails and hull and yet they were creamed by NZ With all these computer programs flying around for designing flyrods Whyaremany of the rods being produced today inferior to those produced duringthe40s and 50s. Jim Payne or Sam Carlson had no computer. Ok some of todaysrods are better cosmetically but all that glitters is not gold. I think fly casting is like sailing, there are too many variables to producea workable program. Surely as the length of line in the air changes theequation changes. What about wind strength and wind direction. I know this geezer down in Plattsburgh who can lay out an incrediblelengthof line with a broom handle OK the loops not very tight.It would beinteresting to see if you guys with the laptops could design a broomstickthat would remedy this problem? Just a joke lads,my british sense ofhumour. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 21:25:59 1996 Subject: Re: Fingernail Router bit Johnas you can see from Wayne I was refering to a 1/4 shaft-- I believe its refered to as a 1/2 in cut.. If I remember properly I also called Cascade as a reference from Wayne... and .. Get his book !!! also Waynes parts buying guide is online on Bruce conners page after the NO FOOLIN http://www.cybercom.net/%7Ebconner/rod.html Get Waynes book anyway.. I don't own stock..Jerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 22:12:54 1996 Subject: Re: Japanese Contact Wayne, I hope all is well, there is a japanese home page on the 'net somewhere asIvisited it once. I have an office in Japan and I would be happy to ask oneof my associates to send me a mag. You would probably need it translated.Let me know. Regards, James. I am looking to find a source of Fly Fishing magazines in Japan and or aFFFgroup there. Any information would be appreciated Wayne Cattanach from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 22:53:41 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Reference the traffic concerning finish materials: Here is a bit of information concerning finishes. Dick Schiller, a newmember to this list and a new rod maker did a bit of research on thesubjectof finishes. Here is what he sent concerning moisture excludingeffectiveness: "There are two types of water to worry about. One is the vapor type that will penetrate even the smallest intermolecular spaces. The other is gross water that will bead up on a rod or any tough surface. In order of moisture excluding effectiveness, from a study I read a fewweeksago here is the list from best to worst. I am leaving out some items thatwewould neveruse on a rod anyway! 1. Melted parrafin 95% effective2. Two part Epoxy 91% (3coats) 54% (1coat)3. Two part polyurethane gloss varnish 66% (3coat) 0 (Yes zero, 1 coat) (apparently it just fills pores and penetrates at only one coat)4. Epoxy gloss varnish 50% (3 coat) 3% (1 coat)5. Orange shellac 46% (3coat) 2% (1 coat) water can leave marks onshellac6. Polyurethane varnish and Alkyd satin varnish 41% (3coat) 8% (1 coat)7. Phenolic Tung floor sealer -1% (yes, it absorbs water, one coat) 35% 3 coats8. Soya alkyd phenolic/tung gloss spar varnish 30% (3coats) 0 (one coat)9. Acrylic gloss latex varnish 10% (3coats) -1% (1coat)10. Tung oil 2% (3coats) -1% (1 coat)11. Linseed oil 0% (3coats) -5 (1coat) (yes it really absorbs water since it penetrates and forms no coat in pores. It does not polymerize well.12. Furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0% no matter how may coats! from the gospel"Polymerized oil is sometimes used by itself. It cures very fast and very hard and resists water and water-vapor penetration. Many gun owners likethe results they get when they rub this oil (usually sold by names, such as Tru-Oil) onto their gun stocks. Because this oil is hard when cured, its possible to build a film from many thin coats.Problems are.........expensive........cures too fast for furniture on large surfaces........cracks appear if applied in thick layers........not signifigantly better than varnish" I used the Casey stuff and dipped it on. It did crack where it was applied too thickly. Notice that it is not on the list as a polymerized oil. I think it is close to the polyeurethane in a polymerized linseed oil (based on the label). Dick" According to this report there is not much other than melted parafin or2- part epoxy that really does the job we would like. To me the realshockeris the reported performance of tung oil. I've read this was the finish ofchoice for Mr. Nat Uslan (pent builder) who had his shop in Miami, Fla. On the other hand, I am not sure just what X % of moisture exclusioneffectiveness means in terms of moisture transfer and bambooperformance. Regards, Richard Tyree. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 00:25:36 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid Hi Terry,The computer question is quite interesting(along with the finishquestions). As almost everyone I obtained a copy of WC's program lastyear.Although interestig to use I still do the 'real' tapers in my head. After thefirst hundred rods it was amazing how well a taper can be designed byintuition. The nub of the conversation is that I don't think that there isany substitute for experience working with a material that has such awiderange of varied properties as bamboo. I believe that a rodbuilders effortswould be better spent perfecting his knowlege of the material than tryingtoput all of the weird habits that make up bamboos character into strings of0's and 1's.The tapers start out as a rough draft on paper and then the subtlemodifications start.An extra .004 here to carry the load further into the buttsection, swell thetaper .020 there to keep the action forward of a certain point etc.Without at least a bit of an empirical intuition how would anyone guessthat the thick wristed tip on an 8ft 5wt is needed to deliver the power tothe stonger midsection of the rod? It looks odd butt that type of actionneeds that tip to work and the taper still handles light tippets well.Probably enough of my taper ramblings for now. I hope this will get someconversation started about tapers,types and how they arrive to us.Thanks to all,A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 06:33:35 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid Sailing that is a love of mine; last year at the start of the America cuprace we were told that the USA were using the most powerful computersin theworld to design the sails and hull and yet they were creamed by NZ Maybe their program was better. BTW, I think the U.S. has been usingcomputersto design hulls for more than a decade. They won a few. With all these computer programs flying around for designing flyrods Whyaremany of the rods being produced today inferior to those produced duringthe40s and 50s. Emprical testing. Art? I think fly casting is like sailing, there are too many variables to producea workable program. Careful. Not so very long ago they said that computers would never playmasterslevel chess. Terry, I think you are a true curmudgeon! :-)richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from BRAUND@medadmin Thu Apr 11 09:43:29 1996 Organization: Washington University in St. LouisSubject: last nite's runPriority: normal met Kevin, Jeff, Mark and Conrad.ran 3 with Kevin before the others showed up.then ran with Mark and Jeff. After Mark and Jeff went on another loop, saw and talked with Kupf who was riding his bike. Sorry, had to leave early, but a family getogether beckoned. Sorrier still should be Biondo and Orly---no shows extraordinaire. Do we want to set Wed as the standard night? Dave from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 11:09:10 1996 Subject: Rodmakers in western MA Please contact me off the list ifyou know of anyone doing cane rodrestoration work in western Massachusetts.TIArichard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 18:10:20 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmakers in western MA Please contact me off the list ifyou know of anyone doing cane rodrestoration work in western Massachusetts.TIArichard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard Frank Try Bob Taylor (R.D. Taylor) in Turners Falls, MA # used to be (413)863- 8608, but that's old and may not be current. He's a nice guy and aknown name in restoration/building. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 18:16:45 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid Sailing that is a love of mine; last year at the start of the America cuprace we were told that the USA were using the most powerful computersin theworld to design the sails and hull and yet they were creamed by NZ Maybe their program was better. BTW, I think the U.S. has been usingcomputersto design hulls for more than a decade. They won a few. With all these computer programs flying around for designing flyrodsWhy aremany of the rods being produced today inferior to those produced duringthe40s and 50s. Emprical testing. Art? I think fly casting is like sailing, there are too many variables toproducea workable program. Careful. Not so very long ago they said that computers would never playmasterslevel chess. Terry, I think you are a true curmudgeon! :-)richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!*****************************************Thanks Frank,that's the nicest thing I've been called for a long time. game?All I'm trying to do is get some answers, their not biting yet,I'll tryagain later.Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 18:16:55 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Richard,Great stuff. But I have a few questions: 1/ Was the testing conducted by placing the finsh on a semi-permeable membrane (paper) between two enclosed spaces ofdiffering humidity and heat? If it was say 90% humidity on one side and 5% on the other or if the test was conducted for 40 hours...2/ How many cane rod owners will take their beloved rod to the stream without a coat of Butchers wax on it? This seals not only from water vapor but also from DEET and other nasties.3/ Rods spend most of their lives in the slowly fluctuating humidity of the modern, centrally heated home. The end grain of the caneis usually very well sealed, so how much penetration of water vapor is likely to occur? Best regards, Reed Curry******************** 1. Melted parrafin 95% effective2. Two part Epoxy 91% (3coats) 54% (1coat)3. Two part polyurethane gloss varnish 66% (3coat) 0 (Yes zero, 1 coat) (apparently it just fills pores and penetrates at only one coat)4. Epoxy gloss varnish 50% (3 coat) 3% (1 coat)5. Orange shellac 46% (3coat) 2% (1 coat) water can leave marks onshellac6. Polyurethane varnish and Alkyd satin varnish 41% (3coat) 8% (1 coat)7. Phenolic Tung floor sealer -1% (yes, it absorbs water, one coat) 35% 3 coats8. Soya alkyd phenolic/tung gloss spar varnish 30% (3coats) 0 (one coat)9. Acrylic gloss latex varnish 10% (3coats) -1% (1coat)10. Tung oil 2% (3coats) -1% (1 coat)11. Linseed oil 0% (3coats) -5 (1coat) (yes it really absorbs water sinceit penetrates and forms no coat in pores. It does not polymerize well.12. Furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0% no matter how may coats! According to this report there is not much other than melted parafin or2- part epoxy that really does the job we would like. To me the realshockeris the reported performance of tung oil. I've read this was the finish ofchoice for Mr. Nat Uslan (pent builder) who had his shop in Miami, Fla. On the other hand, I am not sure just what X % of moisture exclusioneffectiveness means in terms of moisture transfer and bambooperformance. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 18:34:17 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmakers in western MA Bruce, Thanks, but I think Taylor has moved - to N.Y. stateI think. I called Tom Dorsey today. I may drive upand see him next week. richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 19:01:53 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid ParabolicSimi-ParabolicDry Fly actionWet Fly ActionSlow ActionFast Action If you asked 50 fly fishermen to describe the above actions, chances are you would get 50 different descriptions. Using Waynes program with Garrisons math produces a set of numbers for a given rod. Its up to the maker to decide how these numbers. I have found using stress curves very helpful, they may not duplicate exactly what is going on when I cast one of my rods but they give me an insight into what is happening, and I find that useful. It also helps visualize the action of a rod. The other part of this discussion that I find interesting has not been openly stated yet, tradition versus technology. Some seem to be saying that computers should have no part in bamboo rod making. Others are saying that the technology we are using is not sophisticated enough and to be valid and needs to be improved. As bamboo rod makers today we have to blend tradition and technology with every rod we make. Glues, finishes, impregnation, nodes or no nodes, hardware, hook keepers, winding checks, guide spacing and more.................! These are all decisions that we make with each rod. It seems to me that many quality hand crafted bamboo rods are being made today. As makers we my approach things differently but we still have the same goal, the perfect bamboo rod. I for one, celebrate our different approaches. That is what I like about this group and bamboo rod making, there is always something to be learned. Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 19:27:46 1996 Subject: Chrome Plated Brass Ferrules for Refurbishing Bamboo Flyrods Does anyone have a source, foreign or domestic, for chrome plated brassferrules?I am refurbishing several older flyrods and I don't want to use nickelsilver ferrules. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 19:49:42 1996 Subject: Re: Chrome Plated Brass Ferrules for Refurbishing BambooFlyrods 104261.233@compuserve.com wrote: Does anyone have a source, foreign or domestic, for chrome plated brassferrules?I am refurbishing several older flyrods and I don't want to use nickelsilver ferrules. Check out Anglers Workshop 1-360-225-9445. They have then in a number of sizes. Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 19:49:58 1996 Subject: Computer cane I don't build rods so I should probably stayaway from this thread. Certainly, I know next tonothing - no, nothing - about rod tapers and themath used to construct cane rods. I offer an opinionas one who loves the uniqueness of cane. If you sellrods, I'm your buyer. Much of the discourse about computers and cane has focusedon the adequecy of the programs and their source. I wantto suggest that if you could produce the perfect programto produce the perfect rod, you'd give this all up, and myattention would focus exclusively on the works of old masters. I disagree with whomever it was that said that you are all seekingto build the perfect rod. The idea of the perfect is sure to generatethe same kind of boring uniformity that we find in so many of thesuperbly made products that we buy today. Our automobiles are definitely better, but they are also all alike, and they are by andlarge boring. I don't think the joy of cane is in perfection butrather in it's subtle connection to the sport of fly fishing itself.Cane is an aesthetic. A cane rod is not just an excellent tool. It isa uniquely beautiful and "correct" tool. In an important sense you don'thave to seek the perfect rod because cane rods are already perfect.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 20:40:03 1996 Subject: Some Myths Debunked Actually, the subject line was just an eyecatcher. I don't know any mythsor anyone that bunks with them. But I did have an epiphany recently which I wish to share. In taking my (alleged) Nichols 10' 3pc out for its first lawn exercise after reseating the ferrules I was astounded by the following:1/ Calcutta cane can pack a punch, contrary to rumors.2/ The old rods made with flip-ring guides that were said to be impossible to cast really throw a line when they are wearing snake guides.3/ A 10' 3pc. *can* feel as light as an 8'.4/ In 35 years of trying I still can't cast worth spit, but that rod made me think I could.5/ Large guides do not improve flow of line. As for item #1, the rod cast 10' of S.A. Air Cel Supreme (the white) 5DT, gracefully, and yet I had 55' (measured) of line past the rod tip with just a few false casts ... and no hauling. Understand that I learned to "cast" from a book which instructed me to keep my elbow tight to my side and let the rod and wrist do the work. Now modern rodmaking literature wouldhave us believe that Tonkin cane is superior to Calcutta in the power category; I propose that Tonkin cane presented a cheap alternative to Calcutta (which had 12 bad culms for every good one) and the rest is marketing hype. Item #5 is interesting. I replaced the tiny flip-rings with generousmodern snakes, but placed all winds, including the 6 turn intermediates, as original. However, the tip-top is unique. The last 3/4" of the tip is shaved flat on on side and the tip-top is a tiny ring on a thin, flat 3/4"-long bar. I bound this back on as original. It was very difficult to get the loop-to-loop connection through the tip-top. Yet in casting, the lineflowed effortlessly through this delicate aperture. Whatcha think? Reed P.S. - The rod also cst a 4DT but it didn't feel as easy, nor cast quite as well. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 21:12:30 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Reference the traffic concerning finish materials: Here is a bit of information concerning finishes. Dick Schiller, a newmember to this list and a new rod maker did a bit of research on thesubjectof finishes. Here is what he sent concerning moisture excludingeffectiveness: "There are two types of water to worry about. One is the vapor type that will penetrate even the smallest intermolecular spaces. The otheris gross water that will bead up on a rod or any tough surface. In order of moisture excluding effectiveness, from a study I read a fewweeksago here is the list from best to worst. I am leaving out some items thatwewould neveruse on a rod anyway! 1. Melted parrafin 95% effective2. Two part Epoxy 91% (3coats) 54% (1coat)3. Two part polyurethane gloss varnish 66% (3coat) 0 (Yes zero, 1 coat) (apparently it just fills pores and penetrates at only one coat)4. Epoxy gloss varnish 50% (3 coat) 3% (1 coat)5. Orange shellac 46% (3coat) 2% (1 coat) water can leave marks onshellac6. Polyurethane varnish and Alkyd satin varnish 41% (3coat) 8% (1 coat)7. Phenolic Tung floor sealer -1% (yes, it absorbs water, one coat) 35% 3 coats8. Soya alkyd phenolic/tung gloss spar varnish 30% (3coats) 0 (one coat)9. Acrylic gloss latex varnish 10% (3coats) -1% (1coat)10. Tung oil 2% (3coats) -1% (1 coat)11. Linseed oil 0% (3coats) -5 (1coat) (yes it really absorbs water sinceit penetrates and forms no coat in pores. It does not polymerize well.12. Furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0% no matter how may coats! from the gospel"Polymerized oil is sometimes used by itself. It cures very fast and very hard and resists water and water-vapor penetration. Many gun ownerslike the results they get when they rub this oil (usually sold by names, such as Tru-Oil) onto their gun stocks. Because this oil is hard when cured, its possible to build a film from many thin coats.Problems are.........expensive........cures too fast for furniture on large surfaces........cracks appear if applied in thick layers........not signifigantly better than varnish" I used the Casey stuff and dipped it on. It did crack where it was applied too thickly. Notice that it is not on the list as a polymerized oil. I think it is close to the polyeurethane in a polymerized linseed oil (based on the label). Dick" According to this report there is not much other than melted parafin or2- part epoxy that really does the job we would like. To me the realshockeris the reported performance of tung oil. I've read this was the finish ofchoice for Mr. Nat Uslan (pent builder) who had his shop in Miami, Fla. On the other hand, I am not sure just what X % of moisture exclusioneffectiveness means in terms of moisture transfer and bambooperformance. Regards, Richard Tyree. polymerized tung oil is tung oil that has had a cooking process and somedriers added. The problem with any of these reactive finishes, that iswhatthey are called, continue to polymerize until they self destruct. You haveseen old rods that the finish has melted or turned sugary, these are oldtung oil varnishes.Reactive oil finishes also add moisture to the canebecause polymerization requires oxygen from the the air and if thesurrounding air is humid..... Finish I'm absolutely positive is the key.Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:24:03 1996 Subject: Re: Chrome Plated Brass Ferrules for Refurbishing BambooFlyrods Hello ?:Try either E Hille - The Angler's Supply House @ 717-323-7564 orNetcraft @800-638-2723. They listed Nickle Plated Brass in the latest catalogsthat Ihave. Regards - RT from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:26:33 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings In a message dated 96-04-11 19:16:51 EDT, you write: Richard,Great stuff. But I have a few questions: 1/ Was the testing conducted by placing the finsh on a semi-permeable membrane (paper) between two enclosed spaces ofdiffering humidity and heat? If it was say 90% humidity on one side and 5% on the other or if the test was conducted for 40 hours... Beats me. Will see if Dick Schiller will expound on the tests from whichcame the report. However, he is out of pocket for awhile, but will inquirewhen we next communicate if he will do so. 2/ How many cane rod owners will take their beloved rod to the stream without a coat of Butchers wax on it? This seals not only from water vapor but also from DEET and other nasties. Tell us about Butchers wax - I've no experience w/it. 3/ Rods spend most of their lives in the slowly fluctuating humidity of the modern, centrally heated home. The end grain of the caneis usually very well sealed, so how much penetration of water vapor islikely to occur? A good point well taken. Also, as mentioned, don't really know what thenumbers mean. A couple of questions, for example, are: With welltemperedcane in a rod, just how much intercellular water can be taken on? What ifany real effect does such moisture have on the rod's action? If usefulnumbers were available for those questions, then how would they beaffected Isthat a total of absorption or a rate of same? If total, over what period oftime - forever? Blither, blither - I'm off to the shop; but still, 2 % inMiami, Fla seems amazing. Regards Reed,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:27:12 1996 4-11 20:44:11 EDT, you write: I don't think the joy of cane is in perfection butrather in it's subtle connection to the sport of fly fishing itself.Cane is an aesthetic. A cane rod is not just an excellent tool. It isa uniquely beautiful and "correct" tool. In an important sense you don'thave to seek the perfect rod because cane rods are already perfect.richard Not taking sides, but I have never before seen it expressed so well. Regards, R Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:52:59 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid Terry,et al,I made 6 or 8 8', 3 pc. for 7 or 8 wgt. lines. One I could false cast110' of line and still get a fairly gentle cast with it at 30'. I haven'tbeen able to duplicate it since. The tapers were all within .003-.004 ofoneanother, the finish and heat treatment were practically the same and onlytheone rod gave me that performance. The only difference may have been theculm.Any way, I guess that's why this silly cane rod infatuation is so catching.BTW, Terry you are a ruddy curmudgeon, keep it up- we tend to takeourselves too seriously at times(I too have some serious doubts as to theefficacy of computers-but now that I have a Mac 580cd does any one havea Maccompatible program?).Thanks to all, the humor(colonial spelling,Terry) and civility of thislist make ir great,Hank Woolman from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:53:35 1996 Subject: Re: Computer cane I disagree with whomever it was that said that you are all seekingto build the perfect rod. The idea of the perfect is sure to generatethe same kind of boring uniformity that we find in so many of thesuperbly made products that we buy today. Our automobiles aredefinitely better, but they are also all alike, and they are by andlarge boring. I don't think the joy of cane is in perfection butrather in it's subtle connection to the sport of fly fishing itself.Cane is an aesthetic. A cane rod is not just an excellent tool. It isa uniquely beautiful and "correct" tool. In an important sense you don'thave to seek the perfect rod because cane rods are already perfect. Well said! Indeed, the idea of building the "perfect" rod is something of anon-starter, because to me, at least, the perfect rod would only work forone place, one situation. I suppose I could have a few hundred rods an lugem around and say, "hmmm let me see... I'm at the big tree near the bridgeand the water is low. That uses rod #3498!Unlimbering the massive 20 rod case I habitually carry, I would extracttherod, put on the line (tapered for just this spot, with matching leader) andproceed to snag my #20 blue wing olive in a willow on my backcast.Perfect! So that kind of perfection is out. The kind of perfection that is not outis the type that makes it right and proper to use cane and use feathers andfur from other beast and fowl to enjoy the fun of fishing. This grass fromthe other side of the world, supplied to us by nature almost as if it weremeant to be. And yet it is up to us to work it, glue it, and make it doour bidding. A hunter/gatherer lurks just beneath the surface of us all. He knew thecircularity of life alright! If he didn't, you wouldn't be here today. Isit any wonder we should get the same thrill as out ancestors when theymadethat first mental connection that allowed them to be at the right place atthe right time, not by instinct, but by cunning? If this were just about catching fish, I'd last about 10 minutes. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:53:44 1996 Subject: Re: Some Myths Debunked Actually, the subject line was just an eyecatcher. I don't know any mythsoranyone that bunks with them. But I did have an epiphany recently which Iwish to share. Hah! I had epiphany when I was a child and I'm immune. It was veryenlightening... Now modern rodmaking literature would have usbelieve that Tonkin cane is superior to Calcutta in the power category; Ipropose that Tonkin cane presented a cheap alternative to Calcutta(whichhad 12 bad culms for every good one) and the rest is marketing hype. I have looked at Calcutta cane and I'm not sure I would want to work withit. The nodes, at least on the samples I have seen, were very knobby andthe overall diameter of the culm was pretty weeny. Maybe the stuff theyused to use was bigger and the nodes were less pronounced. Anybody know Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 23:01:07 1996 Subject: Normal Ramblings The perfect rod - the perfect rod is a state of mind. I don't think that we are trying to be perfectionists here. A betterdescription might be the enjoyment of the pursuit for perfection - thechallenge of the chase. I don't make rod for the same reason that a personstands in an assembly line bolting parts on a car. Bamboo rod making is anextension of my fly fishing experience - which I hold as sacred ground.Applying a Snoopy comic I saw once "Bamboo rod making is like peeingyourpants in a dark suit - You get a warm feeling but few notice". The rodmakers list is unique in that for the first time one can sharetheir thoughts and ideas (or get help)with so many at one time. Andwhether Iagree or disagree I enjoy the fact that alot of us can hang out together andchat. Another Michigan flyfisher once wrote of his fishing vechicle - I canappreciate the quality of a finely made car. Perhaps a "Beamer" mightmake anappropiate rod case for a woody. Just throw a trailer hitch on it forpullingthe riverboats.Speaking of riverboats. I have used West System several times buildingand restoring the boats we use. But I wouldn't consider it for a rod finish -too thick. The thickness of the finish on most rods is only about .002" -.003" per flat. I apply my finish at about .00225" wet film - because it isonly about 50 percent solids the dry film is about .001125". I figure that Isand about half that off preparing for the second coat. So my totalthicknessis about 2 mils per flat. My friend "The Woodchuck" uses epoxy (Enviro-Tex)on his nets and I'm told that it amounts to about .007" surface film. On theboats it is about .020" per coat. The problem that I see would be adeadeningof action because of the percentage of non active material.If and when some one (Jerry) has a computer program that runs on aMac- a local friend would be interested in getting a copy. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 23:53:56 1996 Subject: Re: Normal Ramblings WayneI assume your request is for a MAC program.. like HEXROD..?? Or just some program. I enlisted a friends help to complete hexrod (MAC). He's doing it in HExcel on a Dumb Operating System so it will be applicable to both platforms. as a matter of fact I have a semi-tech question. Ferrel locations.. I asked him to add a field for Rod Length and then divide it by the no. of sections to find the locations..??? I think you just ask for the nearest in. Good,Bad?? .He gave me a beta sample yesterday and it really looks hot..like some of the others it gives you direct graphs, saves the data, and makes dynamic changes, it will also graph slopes (thanx Darryl) It'll still be a couple of weeks. I'll get the first copy to you(Wayne) to check out. I've been busy messing with HTML to keep rodmakers online..WWWDoes anyone think an unhosted chatroom would be of any benefit. you could set your own meeting times and carry on some of this dialogue in semi-real- time.Or any other Ideas??Jer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 08:00:11 1996 Subject: Re: Computer cane I disagree with whomever it was that said that you are all seekingto build the perfect rod. The idea of the perfect is sure to generatethe same kind of boring uniformity that we find in so many of thesuperbly made products that we buy today. Our automobiles aredefinitely better, but they are also all alike, and they are by andlarge boring. I don't think the joy of cane is in perfection butrather in it's subtle connection to the sport of fly fishing itself.Cane is an aesthetic. A cane rod is not just an excellent tool. It isa uniquely beautiful and "correct" tool. In an important sense you don'thave to seek the perfect rod because cane rods are already perfect.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu I'll admit it, I said "Perfect". I meant it the context of striving to build the best rod that I am able to. I did not mean in the since that there is a "perfect bamboo rod". As Harry Middleton writes about striving for the magic through fly fishing, there is the same kind of magic in bamboo rods for me. UThe angler hopes for nothing and prays for everything; he expects nothing and accepts all that comes his way. And although he knows all along that he will never sink his hook into a trout stream's true mystery, the desire to try, to cast once more and once more again, is never quenched, for there is always that chance that one more cast will carry him beyond skill and luck and bring him untarnished magic.U Harry Middleton, The Earth Is Enough, 1989 Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 08:06:36 1996 Subject: Guide summary Hello all, A couple weeks ago, I queried about single foot guides. Here's how it turned out. I recieved the guide foot adhesive from flexcoat, it worked great. I glued on all the guides, (I had to redo two for alignment). At this point I strung the rod and checked for spacing, I doubt it would handle the stress of an actual cast, but no guides came unglued while putting tension on the line. Then wrapped the guides and finished. Worked great, I'm quite happy with the results. Better yet my son (8 yr old reciepient of the rod) is extremely excited and can't wait to test cast it, it was a shame we got a snow storm at the same time the wrap finish dried. Poor guy, hopefully tonite.Usual disclaimers apply (regarding Flexcoat, no finacial ties, blah, blah). Thamks to all who replied. Now one final question - I would like to write on the rod (i.e. line weight, his name etc), What would you recommend? thanks One final note regarding computers and such, as for building rods, I can live with them or without them. Seeing stuff modeled by science and math is cool, ( oh great, the cat's out of the bag, I'm a nerd) but nothing beats intuition and experience.But this forum is an excellent example of the good computers can do!Keep up the great work Bruce.Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 09:28:14 1996 Subject: Re: Computer cane Johnathan, Apologies, I wasn't trying to single you or anyone else out.I was quite sure that you didn't mean "perfect"in an abstract, ideal sense. My main point inresponse to the thread about whether or notcomputer programs are capable of producing"perfect" taper designs is that it might bewise not to pursue it for fear that they can because,if they can, that result undermines the very craftthat all of you wonderful folks love. I once demonstrated to one of my children thattic/tac/toe is always a tie game if both sidesplay in a perfectly logical manner. She patientlyobserved and finally agreed that I was right. Thenshe said, "You made your point Dad, but you've alsotaken all the fun out of game."richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 09:56:48 1996 Subject: Re: Normal Ramblings I've been busy messing with HTML to keep rodmakers online..WWWDoes anyone think an unhosted chatroom would be of any benefit. youcould set your own meeting times and carry on some of this dialogue insemi-real-time. One of the advantages to the listserve is that the info gets archived andwe can go back and look at it later when we need to. Using IRC is great etc.) but it leaves no record. I say keep the listserve. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 13:22:03 1996 Subject: Re: Japanese Contact James -Thanks for your response - Shortly I will be sending of list of classmembers for this fall (9/16 - 9/22) - It looks like Luis Marden will bereturning this year for that week. I would be interested in getting my hands on a fly fishing magazinefromJapan (translation not a problem). The purpose is to make contact withsomeof the shops over there. Currently a half of my video sales are there andI'mconsidering a possible class over there. Personally I am in the normal scramble getting as many rods ready forspring delivery as I can. Hopefully all is well with you. I'm sure that youare looking forward to the coming spring activities. Thanks for the Help Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 16:43:06 1996 Subject: Re: Normal Ramblings The perfect rod - the perfect rod is a state of mind. I don't think that we are trying to be perfectionists here. A betterdescription might be the enjoyment of the pursuit for perfection - thechallenge of the chase. I don't make rod for the same reason that apersonstands in an assembly line bolting parts on a car. Bamboo rod making isanextension of my fly fishing experience - which I hold as sacred ground.Applying a Snoopy comic I saw once "Bamboo rod making is like peeingyourpants in a dark suit - You get a warm feeling but few notice". The rodmakers list is unique in that for the first time one can sharetheir thoughts and ideas (or get help)with so many at one time. Andwhether Iagree or disagree I enjoy the fact that alot of us can hang out togetherandchat. Another Michigan flyfisher once wrote of his fishing vechicle - I canappreciate the quality of a finely made car. Perhaps a "Beamer" mightmake anappropiate rod case for a woody. Just throw a trailer hitch on it forpullingthe riverboats.Speaking of riverboats. I have used West System several times buildingand restoring the boats we use. But I wouldn't consider it for a rod finish-too thick. The thickness of the finish on most rods is only about .002" -.003" per flat. I apply my finish at about .00225" wet film - because it isonly about 50 percent solids the dry film is about .001125". I figure thatIsand about half that off preparing for the second coat. So my totalthicknessis about 2 mils per flat. My friend "The Woodchuck" uses epoxy (Enviro-Tex)on his nets and I'm told that it amounts to about .007" surface film. Ontheboats it is about .020" per coat. The problem that I see would be adeadeningof action because of the percentage of non active material.If and when some one (Jerry) has a computer program that runs on aMac- a local friend would be interested in getting a copy. So Wayne ABOUT .00225 of wet varnish which drys to ABOUT .001125 andyousand about half of that off about .000562? If 6 decimal places ABOUT toyouI would like to see you when your FUSSY It's good to see you have not changed since I last saw you. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 20:27:57 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Reed,What is Butchers wax?Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 20:47:15 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings What is Butchers wax?Mike in PDX Butchers is the brand name of a paste wax used forfurniture and most notibly for bowling alleys. I wanted to respond to your question because afurniture maker friend put me on to a similarpaste wax made for dark woods. The good thing aboutit is that it leaves no white residue, and you can evenuse it on lighter tone woods without affecting theircolor. Minwax is the producer I'm familiar with. Itcomes in a large round can and it will probably lastyou a lifetime even if you use it on your furniture.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 21:00:58 1996 Subject: Japanese market Taylor he is doing very well over there,he showed me some pics of aJapanesefilm crew making a documentary about him.They love his rods over thereandrightly so the man is a professional,I admire him greatly.A soft spokenmodest gentleman. He remarked that the Japanese pay well and they pay up front but they arepicky, picky,picky.So if any of you out there and feel your rods shape upthen give it a try.p.s dont try to bullshit the Japs,its not part of there culture.T Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 21:06:45 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Reed,What is Butchers wax?Mike in PDX Mike and Bruce,It may not be available by that name in your area. It is a paste furniture/floor wax made up largely of Carnauba with mineral spirits. Available in clear or brown, it is very hard once buffed and really gives that extra protection to a finish. Also it smells good. So the ritual of waxing your fly rod every few trips is not a chore. Use sparingly.Another non-secret is Albolene. The old-timers sometimes coatedsilk lines with it before storage. It would, perhaps, make a good line dressing. You are probably familiar with it as the nifty fly floatant in the squeeze 1/2 oz. bottles for $2.50. A large tub (16 oz?) costs about $9 in the local drugstore.I'm saddened that Terry was able to acquire his curmudgeon label so easily. I'd been rather hoping to be first. Ah, well. There's probably room on the list for two. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 13 09:07:29 1996 Subject: Wax -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- My feeling is that Butcher's does not contain more than 10% Carnauba.I use the following. 1/2 Beeswax, 1/2 Carnauba add to this 5% Paraffinthen some turpentine and a good lick of mineral oil. Pour 2 0z of goodscotch in a separate glass. Place ingredients (except scotch) in pyrexcontainer and nuke until liquid in the microwave. Keep extinguisherhandy just in case. Sip libation while concoction is cooling. One couldeven add a little scent if wanted. This is a good hard wax but not sohard that only power buffing would work. I use straight Carnauba inother applications and it has such a high melting point that it takespower buffing to get it to flow. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 13 10:26:10 1996 Subject: Re: Normal Ramblings BruceThanks for the reply..My intention was not to replace the list but offer an additional alt.. I agree about a ICR alone.. I guess I was under the misunderstanding that we were loosing the list proc also. Obviously not..SorryJerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 13 10:57:14 1996 Subject: Re: Normal Ramblings BruceThanks for the reply..My intention was not to replace the list but offeran additional alt.. I agree about a ICR alone.. I guess I was under themisunderstanding that we were loosing the list proc also. Obviouslynot..SorryJerry Well, my comments on IRC still hold. People will exchange great ideas inreal time and then they will vanish into the mists of time. A few bravesouls will transcribe the sessions and ideas for a while, but since it isrepitition for some, it won't happen for long. With the list I never missanything, even if I go away for a week. And since each post is a gem ofgleaming truth (OK ok...), it would be shame to miss even one. Just my $.02 :') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 13 14:28:48 1996 Subject: Steel Planing Forms Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:58:38 From: James Meier Subject: Steel Planing Forms Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:50:02 From: James Meier Subject: Steel Planing Forms I want to move up to steel planing forms. There are several localmachinists who are equipped and capable of making them for me. Before Ihavethis done I would like some more information based on experiences, likes,dislikes, recommendations, and suggestions on how they should be built.Something like, if you had to do it over again what would you do different?I welcome any and all input.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 13 19:37:37 1996 Subject: Re: Wax JOhn,Can a good, tawny port be substituted for the scotch?Reed My feeling is that Butcher's does not contain more than 10% Carnauba.I use the following. 1/2 Beeswax, 1/2 Carnauba add to this 5% Paraffinthen some turpentine and a good lick of mineral oil. Pour 2 0z of goodscotch in a separate glass. Place ingredients (except scotch) in pyrexcontainer and nuke until liquid in the microwave. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 09:44:30 1996 Subject: Re: Steel Planing Forms rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu wrote: Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:58:38 From: James Meier Subject: Steel Planing Forms Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:50:02 From: James Meier Subject: Steel Planing Forms I want to move up to steel planing forms. There are several localmachinists who are equipped and capable of making them for me. Before Ihavethis done I would like some more information based on experiences,likes,dislikes, recommendations, and suggestions on how they should be built.Something like, if you had to do it over again what would you dodifferent?I welcome any and all input.Jim Dear Jim: I have used a number of different types of steel forms and myrecommendation is that you will do your best work on well made and well dressed steel adjustableforms. The one real abomination of a rod that I ever made was made on wooden forms. Idont' ever show that one to anyone. The Garrison design is tricky for a lot of machinests. The making of the differential screws and the drilling and taping of the screw holes iscritical. Slipshod machine work here means sloppy fit and shifting dimensions. Ifproperly done differential screws are ok, but beware. The Garrison design is (l) tooshort, (2) the taker is not fine enough (extend the tip end another 5 inches using thesame taper) andf it has (3) too few intermediate (2 1/2 inch spacing for the smell. I findthat the puch and pull screw system locks the form into a firm non-shifting taper, andis considerably faster and easier in setting your taper. One caution here. There must be adowl pin at each screw station to prevent the two bars from caming. I would suggestthat you contact by e-mail Frank Armbruster at bootstrap@earthlink.net, and checkout his form. It is quite inexpensive, and well made. I think it is well worthconsidering. The one caution here is that to surface grind to absolute flatness the two barswould make the cost of the form prohibitvely expensive, so Frank does not do it. Thereforeto get a well tuned form it will be necessary to spend a few hours draw filing thesurface. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 10:28:40 1996 Subject: The Perfect Cane Rod "This is written only to show that an experienced fly fisherman will not always choose a really good rod, and, in fact, does not alwaysrecognize a rod's shortcomings, even when casting with it, until he feels a better rod. The author can plead guilty to this, and therefore knows whereof he speaks.""Lest the reader become too discouraged let me say that one can fish beautifully with a rod which is not perfection, but at the expense of undue physical exertion. FOr years I fished fished with what I now realize were very poor rods, but I found that I could place a fly as accurately as the next man, and execute the curve casts and the other neccessities of fly fishing. Only when I acquired the unusually excellent rod I speak of, was I aware of the greater ease with which these things could be done." from "Any Luck" by Eugene Connett (1933 - Windward House) Boy, can I identify with this. Only in my case, I've gone through this cycle a dozen times. Part of my problem is that I might know a rod is excellent, because of others casting with ease with it, so I assume it should suit me. I'll blunder through a season with this rod before I admit that, while the rod is good, it doesn't suit my casting rhythm (such as itis).But the pursuit is the game. Reed Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 10:55:28 1996 Subject: Re: The Perfect Cane Rod rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu wrote: "This is written only to show that an experienced fly fishermanwillnot always choose a really good rod, and, in fact, does not alwaysrecognizea rod's shortcomings, even when casting with it, until he feels a betterrod. The author can plead guilty to this, and therefore knows whereof hespeaks.""Lest the reader become too discouraged let me say that one canfishbeautifully with a rod which is not perfection, but at the expense ofunduephysical exertion. FOr years I fished fished with what I now realize werevery poor rods, but I found that I could place a fly as accurately as thenext man, and execute the curve casts and the other neccessities of flyfishing. Only when I acquired the unusually excellent rod I speak of, wasIaware of the greater ease with which these things could be done." from "Any Luck" by Eugene Connett (1933 - Windward House) Boy, can I identify with this. Only in my case, I've gone throughthis cycle a dozen times. Part of my problem is that I might know a rodisexcellent, because of others casting with ease with it, so I assume itshould suit me. I'll blunder through a season with this rod before I admitthat, while the rod is good, it doesn't suit my casting rhythm (such as itis).But the pursuit is the game. Reed Curry Dear Reed: The proof of the pudding is in the eating. A good rod is more than a famousmaker's name or elegance of finish. One of the sweetest rods I ever cast was atwo piece Montague Sunbeam. It was a miserable excuse for competentworkmanship, but it cast like a dream. Another rod by a very famous rodbuilder who shall remainnameless lest I be accused of blasphemey was the most miserable example of rod action Iever saw. Still as Connett indicated some of the rod's performance must necessarily restwith the man. Ralph from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 15:39:20 1996 Subject: perfect fishing pole The consensus is by an overwhelming majority that graphite makes theperfectfly rod.So few of the fly fishermen that have grown up with compositeshaveshown any interest in bamboo that in actual fact it is on the "loony fringe"to most. To keep bamboo rod making alive the graphite fly fishermen must startgraduating to bamboo but at the moment there is not much sign of that. The book has kept rodmaking alive for 20 years but if Dickerson hadwrittenit would it have been a little more vibrant? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 16:00:35 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings I guess everything that goes in and/or on the rod will affect the action. Doubtless the older rodmakers took this into account in planning their tapers; e.g., how many intermediates, of how many winds. In the olderbooks on rods there is discussion of varnishes (is "coachman's" superior, or a blend of gums and resins, some copal here, some lac, there?). Just assome luthier's propose that Strads were made with an impregnation ofwaterglass, so rodmakers try to ascertain the exact composition of Ed Payne'svarnish. Dis is fun stuff! But it might be simplified by starting with a question: Is a surface finish superior, for your purposes, to a penetrating finish? Both have advantages: the glaze is aesthetically pleasing and protects the glue lines, the penetrant pleases some and is easier to maintain, but the windings may not bond as well and the glue line is unprotected. Orperhaps you might use an oil/varnish mix which penetrates yet sets up on thesurface. Reedjust picked this thread up again Reed,I have an old magazine here dating from the 50s, the writer takes usthroughthe Payne workshop and all the processes. The heat treatment process wasasecret and so was a solution that was put onto the blanks that accordingtothe author kept out all moisture. Payne used varnish, he was famous for that but it looks like he used asealer of some sort.Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 18:29:52 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole The consensus is by an overwhelming majority that graphite makes theperfectfly rod.So few of the fly fishermen that have grown up with compositeshaveshown any interest in bamboo that in actual fact it is on the "loonyfringe"to most. Graphite makes no more a perfect rod than bamboo. Consesus does notdictate truth in my neck of the woods. To keep bamboo rod making alive the graphite fly fishermen must startgraduating to bamboo but at the moment there is not much sign of that. Odd, I've had over 2000 hits on my web page in just a few short months. I, bamboo rods as a fashionable thing-to-do. We don't need zillions of peopleto keep bamboo alive. It could well be the worst thing to happen tobamboobuilding. The book has kept rodmaking alive for 20 years but if Dickerson hadwrittenit would it have been a little more vibrant? Hmmm sounds like more flame-bait to me! :') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 20:18:26 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid Your message reminds me - Ron PArch, a cane rodmaker in HAstingsMichigan= (who is not on the Internet) asked me to inquire of all you me) about the PARA-17 tapering formula for cane rods. Charlie Butter On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Jonathan Clarke wrote: ParabolicSimi-ParabolicDry Fly actionWet Fly ActionSlow ActionFast Action are you would get 50 different descriptions. Using Wayne=B9s with Garrison=B9s math produces a set of numbers for a given rod.It=B9s= up to the maker to decide how these numbers. I have found using of a rod. openly stated yet, tradition versus technology. Some seem to be goal, the perfect bamboo rod. about this group and bamboo rod making, there is always something be learned. Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 20:53:20 1996 Subject: Re: Steel Planing Forms Ralph has brought up a good point - fine tuning metal forms. I have doneit several times both for myself (I own 10 sets) and others. It is a fairlyeasy thing to do but caution should prevail. First lets look at the toolsneeded. 1) 12" flat bastard file1) 6" triangle mill file1) straight edge1) set feeler gauges1) 60 degree center gauge1) machinist square In preparing the files the first thing to do is mount a handle on theflat bastard. Just as the teeth of the file end it is soft enough to drill.So drill and countersink a hole large enough for a #10 wood screw andthenscrew a block of wood to the one side of the file for a handle.The triangle file I epoxy glue to a piece of nylon (it will hold for awhile) - which will act as an indicator for keeping the file level in the Vof the form.I first surface the forms (fully closed) with the flat bastard. Keep thefile as straight to the forms as possible don't file across the forms. Byfiling straight with the forms you have less chance of rocking the file androunding the surface. I simply start at the front of the form and work totheother end. A light amount of downward pressure is all you need. Too muchandyou will lose control. The key is to watch the abrasion marks - when itmeetswith the V it's time to move further down the forms. I often check thesurface with a straight edge to make sure that I'm not rocking the file andcreating a rounded surface. Once the two surfaces are done then it's time for the V's. There are twothings to watch the first is that the file is being pulled (that's right -pulled) creating a V that is correct to the surface - check it often with a60 degree center gauge and square. The second - DON'T FILE TOO MUCHAWAY -especially at the tip. To start the V's - first separate the forms so that the matching innersurfaces are spread by .070" (use the feeler gauges for setting). Thereason Then gently pull the triangle file down the V. Check the abrasion oftenwiththe center gauge and the square. What you will usually see is that there isaburr where the V and the top surface meet. Often I will quit before all themill cup marks are gone - otherwise you may take the V's too far into theforms and not be able to get the forms pinched tight enough to get the tipdimensions that you want.The key is to work slow and accurately - Ralph is right with hisestimate of a couple hours in fine tuning the forms. I usually retune myforms after each of the classes I do - when you are first learning thecraftyou will dig into the forms with the plane but that ceases withexperience.On my personal forms I retune them about once a year (10 - 12 rods) justtoremove some of the chatter marks left by the scraper. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 21:37:46 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole The consensus is by an overwhelming majority that graphite makes theperfectfly rod.So few of the fly fishermen that have grown up with compositeshaveshown any interest in bamboo that in actual fact it is on the "loonyfringe"to most. Hey, Terry, no fair, you're using bait! How many of us will rise to it? I will:)Ok, here goes. A marketing blitz has been waged on the innocents since the mid- 70's to sell graphite fly rods. First the PR men said"POWER", cast twice as far as before. So the poor souls ponied up their $500 for a Super Performance Rod (SPR-700) and found that they were casting overthe fish. Next Madison Avenue (located somewhere between Manchester, VT.and Saucilito) said "Delicacy" and "the feel of Bamboo". Well, Bamboozeledthey were. All the marketers did was renumber the 6 wt.rods as 4 wts.(Actually, true in some instances.) So you hear of instances of someone staggeringdown to the stream one morning with his 2 wt; the rod comes alive in his hands, he had never cast like this before. Then he notices that he picked up the wrong reel as he headed out the door... he had been casting a 5WF.Lads, you don't need a hard sell if you have a good product. But the Sages felt that you must "educate" the customer. Thus, since you can'tmake an FRP (glass or graphite) rod without a problem of overlap of cloth; convince the dolts that all rods should have a "spine" (in cane parlance, this is a "jump" and means you should destroy the piece). Since a mandrel doesn't permit concave tapers, tell the rubes that the only action worth considering is a "progressive action" (a.k.a., straight taper).Now, the response of some cane rodmakers is to emulate graphiterods in cane. (I seem to recall Orvis advertising a cane rod with a graphite action.) Losing battle. That is to suggest that cane can provide nothing more. Think of the fabulous actions available in cane because of its mass, solid center, endless tapers; why emulate graphite???[ Even the salesmen of graphite admit that a cane rod has some properties which actually aid in delicate casting (John Merwin's book on American FF has such a note). ] Whew, sorry for being so longwinded. Terry, I bit, are you happy? :) Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 21:48:00 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings just picked this thread up again Reed,I have an old magazine here dating from the 50s, the writer takes usthroughthe Payne workshop and all the processes. The heat treatment processwas asecret and so was a solution that was put onto the blanks that accordingtothe author kept out all moisture. Hmm, if these things were secrets, how did the author know the secrets existed. If I wanted to market a product, secret processes, even ficticious ones would set me apart from the competition; especially if they "kept out all moisture". Interesting "leak". Most of these business men would takeout patents (Leonard, Varney, Stoner, etc.) when they had something toprotect. Just the skeptic, I guess.:) Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 21:59:08 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole The consensus is by an overwhelming majority that graphite makes theperfectfly rod.So few of the fly fishermen that have grown up with compositeshaveshown any interest in bamboo that in actual fact it is on the "loonyfringe"to most. Graphite makes no more a perfect rod than bamboo. Consesus does notdictate truth in my neck of the woods. To keep bamboo rod making alive the graphite fly fishermen must startgraduating to bamboo but at the moment there is not much sign of that. Odd, I've had over 2000 hits on my web page in just a few short months. I, bamboo rods as a fashionable thing-to-do. We don't need zillions ofpeopleto keep bamboo alive. It could well be the worst thing to happen tobamboobuilding. The book has kept rodmaking alive for 20 years but if Dickerson hadwrittenit would it have been a little more vibrant? Hmmm sounds like more flame-bait to me! :') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.netBruce,Its buyers not builders I'm talking about.I was clicking through ff forumand last year,I think,a flyfisherman asked who owned bamboo rods.Out ofabout 1300 he had 10 replies and out of those 10, less than half usedbambooexclusively.We do have enough makers,the market seems reluctant to even partiallygiveup composites.I feel that if these fishermen got hold some faster tapered cane rods theymay become converts. I think that the Garrison tapers that have becomealmost a standard are just too far removed from what the modernflyfishermanis used to. Let's face it modern bamboo rods are probably cosmetically better thantheyhave ever been and they are inexspensive, considering a handbuilt rod inthe50s cost a months salary.They are not really selling,why? Flame bait?not really Bruce,just trying to get some constructivediscussionsgoing. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 22:26:49 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole The consensus is by an overwhelming majority that graphite makes theperfectfly rod.So few of the fly fishermen that have grown up with compositeshaveshown any interest in bamboo that in actual fact it is on the "loonyfringe"to most. Hey, Terry, no fair, you're using bait! How many of us will rise to it? I will:)Ok, here goes. A marketing blitz has been waged on the innocents since the mid- 70's to sell graphite fly rods. First the PR men said"POWER", cast twice as far as before. So the poor souls ponied up their $500 for a Super Performance Rod (SPR-700) and found that they were casting overthe fish. Next Madison Avenue (located somewhere between Manchester, VT.and Saucilito) said "Delicacy" and "the feel of Bamboo". Well, Bamboozeledthey were. All the marketers did was renumber the 6 wt.rods as 4 wts.(Actually, true in some instances.) So you hear of instances of someone staggeringdown to the stream one morning with his 2 wt; the rod comes alive in hishands, he had never cast like this before. Then he notices that he picked up the wrong reel as he headed out the door... he had been casting a 5WF.Lads, you don't need a hard sell if you have a good product. But the Sages felt that you must "educate" the customer. Thus, since you can'tmake an FRP (glass or graphite) rod without a problem of overlap of cloth; convince the dolts that all rods should have a "spine" (in cane parlance, this is a "jump" and means you should destroy the piece). Since a mandrel doesn't permit concave tapers, tell the rubes that the only action worth considering is a "progressive action" (a.k.a., straight taper).Now, the response of some cane rodmakers is to emulate graphiterods in cane. (I seem to recall Orvis advertising a cane rod with a graphite action.) Losing battle. That is to suggest that cane can provide nothing more. Think of the fabulous actions available in cane because of its mass, solid center, endless tapers; why emulate graphite???[ Even the salesmen of graphite admit that a cane rod has some properties which actually aid in delicate casting (John Merwin's book on American FF has such a note). ] Whew, sorry for being so longwinded. Terry, I bit, are you happy? :) Reed hi Reed,I could not agree with you more but you cannot convert the converted.Youalso cannot escape the facts that flyfishing has grown by leaps andboundsover the last few years yet bamboo has not really enjoyed the success. What I would like to know is. Is it the product or is it the marketing? I must admit I'm baffled. Good article Reed, you should distribute it on the ff forum.Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 00:37:08 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole Terry writes:"Let's face it modern bamboo rods are probably cosmetically better thantheyhave ever been and they are inexspensive, considering a handbuilt rod inthe50s cost a months salary.They are not really selling,why?" I started with glass (Shakespeare Wonderod, Eagle Claw) "stepped up" tocane, (Farlow and Orvis) good glass, Winston, Phillipson, Scott et alwasn'tthat much less than low end cane in the late 60s early 70s. I actuallyremember buying an 8 1/2" Winston in fiberglass because I liked it BETTERthan a somewhat clunky and dinged up 8 1/2 cane Winston for only $20more. I think part of the problem is marketing....with a flyshop in every majorand many not so major locations, I suspect most people do not buy beforethey try and there isn't much cane around to try. No shop in Oregon to myknowledge regularly stocks cane rods. Where are the equivalent of the production rods of yore? The Montagues,Duntons, Shakespears, Heddons, Farlow, H I, and others? I recently purchased a refinished Heddon #15 for $165, much less than adecent new graphite rod, and a Pezon et Michel Fario Club for $425. Iconsider myself extremely lucky to have found them and wouldn't hesitatetodo it again. I think that I would be looking at a minimum of $1,000 forbrand new cane and the maker deserves every dime of it, but the pricelimitsthe market. Doesn't make sense to me that casual hunters spend thousandsona rifle or shotgun that they use 1 or 2 weeks a year and fisherman balk atthe same $ spent on a rod that can be used every week of the year (where Ilive anyway) BTW Terry, if you want anyone to field test any of your rods, let me know,I'd be glad to volunter.(:Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 01:25:53 1996 Subject: Mike in PDX re:perfect rods Hi Mike,Saw the note in rodmakers. Homewaters Fly Shop in Eugene always hasone ofmy rods in stock. 2pc rods are $695 and 3pc rods are $745. I can think ofhalf dozen builders who are making first rate rods for $700 - 800. If youthink you have to spend 1000 for a decent rod what are those people whoareunfamiliar with the market thinking? In addition I even finance the rods. Ithink the builders are doing what they can to provide the public with topquality products and service at a very attractive price.Fish, A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 01:25:53 1996 Subject: rod marketing Hi Terry,I tried to walk away from your comments on the cost, marketing and ?withbamboo.My own experience locally has been that anglers consider bamboo anexpensive"trick" rod and not really useful in the 90's. One went so far as to ask whatrod I 'really' usedwhen I went fishing, I was so taken aback that I wasspeechless(not a problem I normally have). I believe that it is a matter of education. If the average flyfisherpersonknew what we do....1) The quality of bamboo today overall is unsurpassed.2) As a fishing tool bamboo has no peer. (not a casting tool, but fishing)3) The cost of bamboo is at a ridiculous low when compared to wages.4) The taper design of bamboo cannot be matched by plastic.5) The vast majority of the cost of graphite is advertising.6) Cane retains its value much better than plastic(no soul).7) Bamboo is no more brittle or delicate than graphite and it can berepaired. Our problem is one of education...1) We in the bamboo community cannot compete with the incredibleamount ofdisinformation that is spewed out by the plastic rodcompanies with 2 page full color ads in EVERY issue of EVERY magazine.2) The incestuous relationship between the rags and the manufacturers isunknown in any other publishing arena.3) Bamboo is not promoted ..nay even mentioned ..as a choice in fly rods. If we can get the average fly fisherman to take pride in realizing someskill at casting, stalking, line control and presentation intead of makingup for their inexperience by purchasing super fast rods that have no realtiming and are 9 1/2 ft long so they don't have to stalk or have any ideahowto read the current it might help.In the mid to late 80's I ventured forth in all of my naive enthusiasm tomarket what I loved. I thought I had a decent product and I tried tomarcketthem in the most obvious manner possible. Advertise in the rags, promotethemas best I knew how, talk to the 'new products' people. In the process I waslied to, cheated, stolen from, and treated like what I was... a naive kid whodidn't understand the game. Of the first 50 rods I produced commerciallylessthan half were paid for. I left that period of my building careerembittered,broke, and disspirited. I did not build a rod for 2 years. I did not evenhave one of my own rods to use. I didn't even fish. But the same drive thatmade me build to start with meant that I had to get back to building.A few years ago Len Codella asked me to supply a few rods. It offered meexactly what I needed at the time... a venue that isolated me from theconsumer. It was a layer of protection that I needed at the time and itoffered me the freedom to experiment and improve.I believe that Len was trying to do what we ALL need to do , a type ofguild. A difficult proposition for such a diverse group of craftsmen. Hewaspartly successful but I wonder if it has not taken too much of his energy. Back to some solutions for the marketing difficuties, 1) Bamboo guild or trade association(let us not forget what happened tothefly dressers , it seems that they are having a tough time of it since theadvent of overseas flies tied by slave labor).2) Bamboo tends to attract quiet, competent people....perhaps we need tobecome more strident in our arguments.3) By following the money trail you can see that we are wasting our timewiththe mainstream trade rags... Try to compete with those contracts for 2pagesat a time FULL COLOR. This diatribe will be continued at a later date when I get some moreinput from fellow rodcraftsmen. I do feel much better however. Goodnight all,A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 01:33:22 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing rod Hello All, I had the chance to fish what might have been similar rods side by sidetoday. Mine was an 8' 5wt? cane with a WF6 on it. The other might havebeen a Sage blank - 8'3" 5WT?. No markings or memory on the part of it'sbuilder. I feel the Smoothness of cane. It's wonderful. Many graphite rods I'vecast have an unpleasant 'snappy' feel to them. Today's graphite wasn't sobad in the snappy department. It had tremendous line speed & tight loops.I admit - I was jealous. We were wading deep and I found it easier to keepmy backcast off the water with my companion's rod. When you cast cane you feel the rod. When you cast graphite you feel theline. I know it's not that black & white - but look at the tip impact & thevarious moments! As graphite is essentially massless in contrast to cane-you shouldn't hope to feel the rod (Although you DO feel the SNAP) Thislack of mass leads to one of the drawbacks of graphite! An inablitily tocast short! Long though - look out. So far I've built mostly Garrisons. The noodle I was fishing today was ofmy own design&redesign. I guess I'm coming to agree with Dave Hughes ashewrote in 'Tackle & Technique' - cane is best in light weights & shorter rodlengths. I don't think I'll ever experience the combination of power, speed& lightness I felt today in an 8' 5wt cane. On the other hand, I've notfelt many graphites that are 'cane smooth' yet. On the other hand, much of today I fished with weighted western stones &shot today. Would I want a sweet cane rod subjected to this sort of thing?(I'd have to add the stone & shot to the tip impact!) Cheers,Gordon Truman once requested a one-armed economist. "Why", he was asked. "Sohecan't say 'on the other hand'!" from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 02:15:56 1996 Subject: Re: rod marketing In response to A.J. Thramer, You make a wonderful point in that rods are FISHING tools. When you'rebusygetting skunked, as I was today, you forget that fish and tippets are partof the equation! I'm not sure I agree whole-heartedly on the 'bamboo is tough' front. I'vebeen told they are more resistant to rattlesnakes than tubular rods.Haven't taunted one with a tip yet myself, so I don't know. But I think thenew tip for my 8" 5wt. had become less crisp in fairly short order. I knowI abused that tip - but I think graphite probably has a longer life. The important point here is Len Codella. I too feel he's a friend of cane.We may have no better. But is he a friend of Fish? On the back of Len's catalogue is a subsidized subscription form for theNRA. I was a student of NRA's gun safety schools & feel that, at that time,they were a great organization. Today, however, the NRA is not a 'Sportsmens' group. They no longerrepresent the hunter, but rather the 'self-defense' segment of our society.The folks that the NRA buys are against trout & ducks, and American flytiers too, for that matter. Bottom line - I love his catalogue. Feel like I'm stepping on a sensitiveappendage when I do business with him. Cheers,Gordon Go Ducks Unlimited or FFF or TU or ... What sort of an idiot would have an NONENVIRONMENTAL add on the back ofhis'Sportsman's Catalogue'? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 07:07:17 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole Its buyers not builders I'm talking about.I was clicking through ff forumand last year,I think,a flyfisherman asked who owned bamboo rods.Out ofabout 1300 he had 10 replies and out of those 10, less than half usedbambooexclusively.Terry I wouldn't take this response too seriously, Terry. I remember the poll andIremember thinking that some people would not respond to it because theydidnot want to be perceived as cane rod owners - class thing, or theybasicallydidn't want to advertise their holdings for all to see, or they didn't careabout the poll. I didn't respond and I know several other cane owners onthe list who didn't. I'm guessing there are more cane rod owners on theFF@list than you could shake a stick at - so to speak.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 07:27:35 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole Terry wrote in response to reed's indictment of graphite hype: hi Reed,I could not agree with you more but you cannot convert the converted.Youalso cannot escape the facts that flyfishing has grown by leaps andboundsover the last few years yet bamboo has not really enjoyed the success. I wonder if this is true? Certainly, I wouldn't expect the cane market togrow as rapidly as fly fishing given that it's on the economic high-end of the sport. And, more importantly, some of this growth is atravel/sportsmarket blip. Remember the "growth" of tennis, bicycling (now mt. bikes),backpacking? a lot of used graphite rods will be available soon. I think thegraphite market is totally saturated and headed for collapse. Theextravagentclaims for graphite have about reached their limit as far as I can see.Thoseinto having the latest and the "best" will get bored soon. Watch forbowlingas the next sport's blip. :-) Graphite balls that roll faster and track more accurately with less effort! :-) What I would like to know is. Is it the product or is it the marketing? I must admit I'm baffled. Orvis knows how to market but they don't seem to be selling cane. Perhapsit'stoo much trouble, or there's less profit or it takes too long. Good article Reed, you should distribute it on the ff forum.Terry I agree. I was going to ask if you'd mind if posted it there?richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 07:43:34 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole Odd, I've had over 2000 hits on my web page in just a few short months. Bruce, 1,952 of them were from me ;^) To keep bamboo rod making alive the graphite fly fishermen must startgraduating to bamboo but at the moment there is not much sign of that. Let's face it modern bamboo rods are probably cosmetically better thantheyhave ever been and they are inexspensive, considering a handbuilt rod inthe50s cost a months salary.They are not really selling,why?Since when is $1000 inexpensive??I would love to use bamboo, but they are so damn expensive. I can build a graphite rod for $150 - 200. Building a rod is the only chance I'll have to own a decent (hopefully) bamboo rod and then the graphites will find thier place in the closet. Bamboo is beautiful, but as for a casting implement, I haven't had the opportunity to seriously use one. Graphite works good enough for me for the money. When i become independently wealthy my opinion will probably change, but for now frugality rules. Just my $.02.Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 08:10:01 1996 Subject: Re: Mike in PDX re:perfect rods A.J. and others.. Well then, my apologies on the pricing structure, I think comment(s) onavailability still stand...in the late 60s and into the very early 70s, NormThompson would have literally dozens of cane rods in stock, to try ifdesired. Meir and Frank (a Department Store for gosh sake!) wouldtypicallyhave a dozen or so cane rods at any point in time.Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 08:55:09 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole Graphite works good enough for me for themoney. When i become independently wealthy my opinion will probablychange, but for now frugality rules.Tom This answers Terry's question. It also suggests an approach to marketingcane rods. Convince the buyer that cane ~is~ inexpensive by pointing outthat cost entails more than just an initial outlay of money. Buy, forexample, a graphite rod for approximately $400 and a new cane rod for $700. I'mconfidentthat the value of the graphite rod will depreciate by at least %50 ($200)in 3 years. The cane will likely depreciate by no more than 30% or ($210). If you sellboth rodsit will have cost you $10 more to fish cane. My numbers are hypothetical,but experiencewatching both markets convinces me that they are not far from beingcorrect. Tom isnot going to be a cane rod buyer because he wants to keep his rod costdown to $200. But there are many buyers out there who are spending $500 - 600 ongraphite. Manydon't know that great cane rods are available at comparable prices, manybelieve thatcane is slow and weepy, many think the rods will warp, break or requiretoo muchcare. Many have been sold on the idea of high modulus rods and trout reelswith discdrags that can stop a Buick. I believe that most of these folks will give upfly fishingbefore they grow enough in the sport to appreciate cane. Some. however,will fish theirway through the high modulus rods and discover that while they do indeedthrow a line 90', that has little to do with fishing, and that the "softer." more forgivingaction ofcane brings added pleasure to fishing - indeed, fishes better. Adopt a newslogan:Buy cane! Cane rods fish better, cane rods cost less!richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 10:03:49 1996 Subject: Re: Normal Ramblings Jerry seez... Thanks for the reply..My intention was not to replace the list but offer an additional alt.. I agree about a ICR alone.. I guess I was under the misunderstanding that we were loosing the list proc also. Obviously not..Sorry Sorry for the confusion. The LISTSERV is in fact safe & sound. What we will be loosing is the site that currently is home tothe Rodmakers Archives. The Archives are home to all (well, _almost_ all :-)back messages, several excellent articles that members have submittedto _The_Planing_Form_ and were kind enough to put copies in theArchives, Bruce's rodmaking FAQ (better known as *THE* FAQ!!! :-) plus a lot of other intresting stuff ("intresting stuff" ... that's Several folks have offered help in finding a new home for the Archives,so hopefully by the time the archive machine is shut down, we will havea new home. If not, I will download everything to my PC and do my bestto handle your archive request via email. I will keep everyone postedas things develop. So, once again, the LISTSERV is well and growing, and should continueas such well into the time even the youngest of us 'evolve' intocurmudgeons!!! Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy ORN (Obligatory Rodmaking Note! :-) I now have *11* splines ready for gluing! I screwed up the 12th :-( Got a new one planed but trying to figure out how to heat treat itwithout an oven!!! :-) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 10:07:57 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole Response to two Items Frank mentioned:1/ Submitting my hasty diatribe to the FF list. Frank, please don't! A positive tone wins the day; that reply I gave was crude andperhaps offensive to some. Further, coming from a cane rod user, it reeks of snobbery. This list is *not* snobbish about cane; but the FF listmembers might not know that.2/ Cane rods cost less. True. If you amortize the cost over twenty years (and I have rods over 100 years old that are excellent), the cost is miniscule. ALso, some makers rods, e.g., Carlson, Gillum, are worth 30 times what the maker originally charged for them. Appreciation!3/ Durability. Except in really severe conditions (salt), a cane rod may be more durable than graphite. A small scratch will notaffect cane, but it is death to graphite. Wonder why graphite rodmakers offerfree replacement tips?? Buy cane! Cane rods fish better, cane rods cost less!richard Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 10:11:05 1996 Subject: Re: rod marketing Most of the people that post to this newslist appear to already be convertsto bamboo rods. As such, I believe that they are too close to the issue tobe entirely subjective. In the following message Mr. Thramer makes anargument that the average flyfisherperson would be more inclined to buybamboo if they were better educated. I would like to comment. At 01:57 AM 4/15/96 -0400, A.J.Thramer wrote:Hi Terry,I tried to walk away from your comments on the cost, marketing and ?withbamboo.My own experience locally has been that anglers consider bamboo anexpensive"trick" rod and not really useful in the 90's. One went so far as to askwhatrod I 'really' used when I went fishing, I was so taken aback that I wasspeechless(not a problem I normally have). I believe that it is a matter of education. If the average flyfisherpersonknew what we do....1) The quality of bamboo today overall is unsurpassed. If you are referring to quality as in craftsmanship then that is a sellingpoint to me. I love handmade items (I make knives) and the subtle touchesthat go into handmade objects are what set them apart from productiongoods.If you are referring to items such as alignment of guides and integrity ofglue joints as being quality then that's not a selling point with me. Iexpect that type of quality to be in the product. 2) As a fishing tool bamboo has no peer. (not a casting tool, but fishing) This may be true but are my skills advanced enough to take advantage ofit?Probably not. 3) The cost of bamboo is at a ridiculous low when compared to wages. I'm sure that this is true just as it is with knifemaking but again, this isa non- issue with the average Joe. If you are competing with graphite,thenyour prices will be compared to graphite. People don't really care aboutyour costs. 4) The taper design of bamboo cannot be matched by plastic. Is this what results in item two above? Otherwise, what does it matter? 5) The vast majority of the cost of graphite is advertising. I'm interested in the selling price of the rod, not the cost components ofthe maker. 6) Cane retains its value much better than plastic(no soul). Good point. 7) Bamboo is no more brittle or delicate than graphite and it can berepaired. Graphite makers have 100% free replacement warranties now. How dobamboowarranties compare? Our problem is one of education...1) We in the bamboo community cannot compete with the incredibleamount ofdisinformation that is spewed out by the plastic rodcompanies with 2 page full color ads in EVERY issue of EVERY magazine.2) The incestuous relationship between the rags and the manufacturers isunknown in any other publishing arena.3) Bamboo is not promoted ..nay even mentioned ..as a choice in fly rods. [balance deleted]Goodnight all,A.J.Thramer I don't think that education is going to do much in the way of convertingthe masses. I see it as a marketing issue in that you need to sell thepublic on the mystique of the cane rod as compared to graphite. BTW, I'malready sold but there's no way that I can justify spending $750-$1200 onarod just as I can't justify spending the same amount on a custom knife.That's the reason I started making my own. --John JohnsonAtlanta, GAjjohnson@netime.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 11:31:51 1996 Subject: Shakesdpeare No, not the bard. Anybody out there a Shakespeare tackle collector? Oranyone know of such, or a list of tackle collectors? Need informationconcerning a fly rod that I am interested in - altho it be glass. Thanks, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 11:32:39 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid Looks like the LISTSERV decided to munch on one of Darryl'smessages...sorry if this is a duplicate. Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =From: "Hayashida, Darryl - HADN" Subject: Re: computer aidDate: Thu, 11 Apr 96 17:15:00 PDTMessage-Id: Encoding: 21 TEXTText Deleted.... The other part of this discussion that I find interesting has not beenopenly stated yet, tradition versus technology. Some seem to be sayingthat computers should have no part in bamboo rod making. Text Deleted... In my case I'm going to the computer route because I have notradition to fall back on. I have only been making my own fora year now, and I really don't want to wait until I make a hundredrods to get an intuitive feel for how to design a taper. It might bethat that's what it takes to be good at designing a taper, but ifI keep track of what I did and try to get it down in a digital format,perhaps the next guy along will have an easier time when hefirst tries to design a taper. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 11:33:34 1996 Subject: Priced too low Just to toss a little fuel to the fire. I think that the common mistakeis to price the product too low. I would say that the ratio of the ff poll iscorrect 250:1 - so that if there are 250,000 new rods sold each year 1000ofthem will be cane.The majority of cane buyers are prepared to pay the price and to someextent want to pay the price(Bragging Rights). Look at the rods that areselling and at the prices - most rod sales are in excess of $1000.00. WhydoJeep Grand jobs sell so well.Prehaps instead of reading books on fly fishing we should be readingHarvey Mackay on marketing. Of those trying to sell rods do you all get FlyTackle Dealer? WayneA drizzley Casnovia, MI from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 11:51:10 1996 Subject: Re: Wax Does anyone have a source for pure carnauba? Beeswax is no problem, since I'm a beekeeper... -Phil Plumbo from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 12:09:08 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole In a message dated 96-04-15 08:22:47 EDT, you write: Remember the "growth" of tennis, bicycling (now mt. bikes), backpacking? a lot of used graphite rods will be available soon. I think thegraphite market is totally saturated and headed for collapse. Theextravagentclaims for graphite have about reached their limit as far as I can see.Thoseinto having the latest and the "best" will get bored soon. Watch forbowling Good points. I have heard that glass is coming back into vogue, and amseeing adds for custom glass. Seems the slower actions are the reason.Maybe this IS the time for all good (bamboo building) men to cometogether a good one. Perhaps by requiring dues, enough money could be pooled tomakeeffective advertising statements in some of the better ff mags. The big IFis, "is this what its all about?" Seems success has spoiled many a goodthing, might it happen to bamboo? The main reason I see to obtain a bizlicense and start selling is that the rods are beginning to stack up andoverwelm. am now testing. Best regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 12:10:35 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole In a message dated 96-04-15 08:38:54 EDT, you write: I would love to use bamboo, but they are so damn expensive. I can build a graphite rod for $150 - 200. Check out the used lists. Many a good Heddon or Granger goes for muchlessthan new graphite, even some used g. The Granger 8-1/5' # 5 med-fast isanexcellent example. Saw one that went for $225 and needed a little fix uptobe first rate. Single tip (same as g) but otherwise all there. Hany Heddonslikewise. Regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 12:27:37 1996 Subject: RE: Priced too low I have just recently talked to a couple of guys locally who refurbisholdcane rods and sell them. When they found out that I make new canerods, they were very interested in how much I would be willing to sellthem for. Not that they were interested in buying them, but as a wayto keep their prices up. If I sold a new cane rod for $500, theycouldn'tcharge $300 for a refurbished rod. I don't feel that I'm making themgoodenough or quickly enough to sell them yet, but the potential situationisthere.... The price under cutting between independent rodmakers. Theowner of a local fly fishing store recommends that when I sell them, Idon't sell for anything under $1000. He says I make them so good that that's what they are worth, but personally I think it's because hedoesn'twant the mystique of high priced cane rods to be exposed and his cane rod stock devalued. Is this price fixing? I started making my ownbecauseI couldn't afford to buy a quality cane rod. Now I make my own because Itruly enjoy crafting a quality split cane rod. Right now I would sell afewrods pretty low just to get the cost of my tools back, but later, if itshouldevolve to be my livelihood, or in the case of a few out there where it*is*their livelihood I sure wouldn't want the cost to be undercut by anewcomerwho didn't realize the value of the product. Darryl Hayashida ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com[SMTP:WayneCatt@aol.com]Sent: Monday, April 15, 1996 9:15 AM Subject: Priced too low Just to toss a little fuel to the fire. I think that the commonmistakeis to price the product too low. I would say that the ratio of the ffpoll iscorrect 250:1 - so that if there are 250,000 new rods sold each year1000 ofthem will be cane.The majority of cane buyers are prepared to pay the price and tosomeextent want to pay the price(Bragging Rights). Look at the rods thatareselling and at the prices - most rod sales are in excess of $1000.00.Why doJeep Grand jobs sell so well.Prehaps instead of reading books on fly fishing we should bereadingHarvey Mackay on marketing. Of those trying to sell rods do you all getFlyTackle Dealer? WayneA drizzley Casnovia, MI from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 12:27:37 1996 Subject: RE: Priced too low I have just recently talked to a couple of guys locally who refurbisholdcane rods and sell them. When they found out that I make new canerods, they were very interested in how much I would be willing to sellthem for. Not that they were interested in buying them, but as a wayto keep their prices up. If I sold a new cane rod for $500, theycouldn'tcharge $300 for a refurbished rod. I don't feel that I'm making themgoodenough or quickly enough to sell them yet, but the potential situationisthere.... The price under cutting between independent rodmakers. Theowner of a local fly fishing store recommends that when I sell them, Idon't sell for anything under $1000. He says I make them so good that that's what they are worth, but personally I think it's because hedoesn'twant the mystique of high priced cane rods to be exposed and his cane rod stock devalued. Is this price fixing? I started making my ownbecauseI couldn't afford to buy a quality cane rod. Now I make my own because Itruly enjoy crafting a quality split cane rod. Right now I would sell afewrods pretty low just to get the cost of my tools back, but later, if itshouldevolve to be my livelihood, or in the case of a few out there where it*is*their livelihood I sure wouldn't want the cost to be undercut by anewcomerwho didn't realize the value of the product. Darryl Hayashida ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com[SMTP:WayneCatt@aol.com]Sent: Monday, April 15, 1996 9:15 AM Subject: Priced too low Just to toss a little fuel to the fire. I think that the commonmistakeis to price the product too low. I would say that the ratio of the ffpoll iscorrect 250:1 - so that if there are 250,000 new rods sold each year1000 ofthem will be cane.The majority of cane buyers are prepared to pay the price and tosomeextent want to pay the price(Bragging Rights). Look at the rods thatareselling and at the prices - most rod sales are in excess of $1000.00.Why doJeep Grand jobs sell so well.Prehaps instead of reading books on fly fishing we should bereadingHarvey Mackay on marketing. Of those trying to sell rods do you all getFlyTackle Dealer? WayneA drizzley Casnovia, MI from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 13:25:59 1996 Subject: Re: cane prices In response to Wayne's comment about rod prices. Being a rod collector, Isee some very good rods selling less than $500. There are several wellknown curent rod makers that have rods that sell between $1000 to$1500.These rods will still be worth this amount after the rods are a few yearsold. Unknown maker rods sell between $400 to $600. They lose about 20%after being used. Be careful you don't price your rods above the price ofcollectable rod makers.Clark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. Street.Zion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext. 270c-davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 14:28:41 1996 Subject: Benchtop Lathe Greetings fellow rodmakers: I'm in the market for a used benchtop metalworking lathe. If anyone hasone for sale, or knows where one can be found in the Pacific Northwest, please letme know off the list. No luck with the local machine tool dealers so far. Regards and Tight Lines,Lloyd.Cross@Clorox.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 15:31:15 1996 Subject: Re: Benchtop Lathe Greetings fellow rodmakers: I'm in the market for a used benchtop metalworking lathe. If anyone hasoneforsale, or knows where one can be found in the Pacific Northwest, pleaselet meknow off the list. No luck with the local machine tool dealers so far. Regards and Tight Lines,Lloyd.Cross@Clorox.com I have a small Prazi (I think that is what it is called) That has beenturned on once. Weighs a ton. Let me know if you are interested and maybewe can work sumpin out. I'm thinking around $850. I purchased it fromEncoso if you are close to them you can see one. I'm at the So end of SF Bay inSan Jose, CA. We will be in Eugene, OR, in early July and maybe we couldwork out a delivery if you want it. Keep your feet dry, Bob lukn4fish and gazing at the stars----------Bob MaddenSan Jose, Ca madden@aimnet.commadden@svpal.orglipetska@aol.com from stormy Atlanta F. Karl HubeAtlanta, Georgiakhube@benmeadows.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 16:15:12 1996 Subject: RE: Priced too low I have just recently talked to a couple of guys locally who refurbisholdcane rods and sell them. When they found out that I make new canerods, they were very interested in how much I would be willing to sellthem for. Not that they were interested in buying them, but as a wayto keep their prices up. If I sold a new cane rod for $500, theycouldn'tcharge $300 for a refurbished rod. I don't feel that I'm making themgoodenough or quickly enough to sell them yet, but the potential situationisthere.... The price under cutting between independent rodmakers. Theowner of a local fly fishing store recommends that when I sell them, Idon't sell for anything under $1000. He says I make them so good that that's what they are worth, but personally I think it's because hedoesn'twant the mystique of high priced cane rods to be exposed and his cane rod stock devalued. Is this price fixing? I started making my ownbecauseI couldn't afford to buy a quality cane rod. Now I make my own because Itruly enjoy crafting a quality split cane rod. Right now I would sell afewrods pretty low just to get the cost of my tools back, but later, if itshouldevolve to be my livelihood, or in the case of a few out there where it*is*their livelihood I sure wouldn't want the cost to be undercut by anewcomerwho didn't realize the value of the product. Darryl Hayashida ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com[SMTP:WayneCatt@aol.com]Sent: Monday, April 15, 1996 9:15 AM Subject: Priced too low Just to toss a little fuel to the fire. I think that the commonmistakeis to price the product too low. I would say that the ratio of the ffpoll iscorrect 250:1 - so that if there are 250,000 new rods sold each year1000 ofthem will be cane.The majority of cane buyers are prepared to pay the price and tosomeextent want to pay the price(Bragging Rights). Look at the rods thatareselling and at the prices - most rod sales are in excess of $1000.00.Why doJeep Grand jobs sell so well.Prehaps instead of reading books on fly fishing we should bereadingHarvey Mackay on marketing. Of those trying to sell rods do you all getFlyTackle Dealer? WayneA drizzley Casnovia, MI Darryl,you have been building rods for 1 year and have been told they are worth$1000,listen nobody is going to fork out that sort of cash for an unknown.Ibet the retailer did not promise to buy them from you? they will be put inhis rack to break up the black monotony.They will look second hand in 3months. You first must find a retailer that knows cane and is trustworthy. Dont even think about doing it for a living, not unless you have anotherincome. T.Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 17:02:28 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings just picked this thread up again Reed,I have an old magazine here dating from the 50s, the writer takes usthroughthe Payne workshop and all the processes. The heat treatment processwas asecret and so was a solution that was put onto the blanks that accordingtothe author kept out all moisture. Hmm, if these things were secrets, how did the author know the secrets existed. If I wanted to market a product, secret processes, evenficticious ones would set me apart from the competition; especially if they "keptout all moisture". Interesting "leak". Most of these business men would takeout patents (Leonard, Varney, Stoner, etc.) when they had something toprotect. Just the skeptic, I guess.:) ReedReed,you just poo pooed the idea without giving it any thought.Remember last week the tread on finishes? some finishes are goodmoisturebarriers some were good at keeping out water. So why not 2 finishes? think about it.Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 17:02:28 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings just picked this thread up again Reed,I have an old magazine here dating from the 50s, the writer takes usthroughthe Payne workshop and all the processes. The heat treatment processwas asecret and so was a solution that was put onto the blanks that accordingtothe author kept out all moisture. Hmm, if these things were secrets, how did the author know the secrets existed. If I wanted to market a product, secret processes, evenficticious ones would set me apart from the competition; especially if they "keptout all moisture". Interesting "leak". Most of these business men would takeout patents (Leonard, Varney, Stoner, etc.) when they had something toprotect. Just the skeptic, I guess.:) ReedReed,you just poo pooed the idea without giving it any thought.Remember last week the tread on finishes? some finishes are goodmoisturebarriers some were good at keeping out water. So why not 2 finishes? think about it.Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 17:40:37 1996 Subject: Re: Japanese market Terry Your are right on picky - also be prepared to make small grips andotherslight changes to satisfy the Japanesse tastes. I have seen Japanessemaderods with non-Tonkin Bamboo - very interesting. But the word isattention todetail. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 17:50:02 1996 Subject: RE: Priced too low ----------From: hexagon@odyssee.net[SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Monday, April 15, 1996 1:59 PM Subject: RE: Priced too low I have just recently talked to a couple of guys locally who refurbisholdcane rods and sell them. When they found out that I make new canerods, they were very interested in how much I would be willing to sellthem for. Not that they were interested in buying them, but as a wayto keep their prices up. If I sold a new cane rod for $500, theycouldn'tcharge $300 for a refurbished rod. I don't feel that I'm making themgoodenough or quickly enough to sell them yet, but the potential situationisthere.... The price under cutting between independent rodmakers. Theowner of a local fly fishing store recommends that when I sell them, Idon't sell for anything under $1000. He says I make them so good that that's what they are worth, but personally I think it's because hedoesn'twant the mystique of high priced cane rods to be exposed and his cane rod stock devalued. Is this price fixing? I started making my ownbecauseI couldn't afford to buy a quality cane rod. Now I make my own because Itruly enjoy crafting a quality split cane rod. Right now I would sell afewrods pretty low just to get the cost of my tools back, but later, if itshouldevolve to be my livelihood, or in the case of a few out there where it*is*their livelihood I sure wouldn't want the cost to be undercut by anewcomerwho didn't realize the value of the product. Darryl Hayashida Darryl,you have been building rods for 1 year and have been told they areworth$1000,listen nobody is going to fork out that sort of cash for anunknown. Ibet the retailer did not promise to buy them from you? they will be putinhis rack to break up the black monotony.They will look second hand in 3months. You first must find a retailer that knows cane and is trustworthy. Dont even think about doing it for a living, not unless you haveanother income. T.Ackland You missed the point of my post entirely...The point wasn't that my rods are worth $1000. What I was trying topointout was that many people in the business are trying to artificiallyinflatethe price of cane rods. I didn't for a minute believe the guy that Ishouldsell my rods for that much. He was trying to protect his investment inhisstock of cane rods. If someone buys a cane rod from me at $500, thenthere goes a sale of $1000 or more for him. Same with the guys whorefurbish old rods. If there is someone in the area selling brand newrods for the same that they are trying to sell refurbished rods for,thenwhich would you buy? But, as I was trying to point out, they have beenin the business for years and I haven't. Just like the automobileindustry in the 70's. Prices are undercut by a newcomer and the old establishedindustryis in jeopardy of going under because no one can make a living anymore. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 19:52:33 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole ACKLAND TERENCE wrote: The consensus is by an overwhelming majority that graphite makes theperfectfly rod.So few of the fly fishermen that have grown up withcomposites haveshown any interest in bamboo that in actual fact it is on the "loonyfringe"to most. Hey, Terry, no fair, you're using bait! How many of us will rise toit? I will:)Ok, here goes. A marketing blitz has been waged on the innocentssince the mid- 70's to sell graphite fly rods. First the PR men said"POWER",cast twice as far as before. So the poor souls ponied up their $500 for aSuper Performance Rod (SPR-700) and found that they were castingover thefish. Next Madison Avenue (located somewhere between Manchester, VT.andSaucilito) said "Delicacy" and "the feel of Bamboo". Well, Bamboozeledtheywere. All the marketers did was renumber the 6 wt.rods as 4 wts.(Actually,true in some instances.) So you hear of instances of someone staggeringdownto the stream one morning with his 2 wt; the rod comes alive in hishands,he had never cast like this before. Then he notices that he picked up thewrong reel as he headed out the door... he had been casting a 5WF.Lads, you don't need a hard sell if you have a good product. But theSages felt that you must "educate" the customer. Thus, since you can'tmakean FRP (glass or graphite) rod without a problem of overlap of cloth;convince the dolts that all rods should have a "spine" (in cane parlance,this is a "jump" and means you should destroy the piece). Since amandreldoesn't permit concave tapers, tell the rubes that the only action worthconsidering is a "progressive action" (a.k.a., straight taper).Now, the response of some cane rodmakers is to emulate graphiterodsin cane. (I seem to recall Orvis advertising a cane rod with a graphiteaction.) Losing battle. That is to suggest that cane can provide nothingmore. Think of the fabulous actions available in cane because of itsmass,solid center, endless tapers; why emulate graphite???[ Even the salesmen of graphite admit that a cane rod has someproperties which actually aid in delicate casting (John Merwin's book onAmerican FF has such a note). ] Whew, sorry for being so longwinded. Terry, I bit, are you happy? :) Reed hi Reed,I could not agree with you more but you cannot convert the converted.Youalso cannot escape the facts that flyfishing has grown by leaps andboundsover the last few years yet bamboo has not really enjoyed the success. What I would like to know is. Is it the product or is it the marketing? I must admit I'm baffled. Good article Reed, you should distribute it on the ff forum.Terryim new to this forum and im not sure how to use my new internetaccount so if this ends up in your mail and not posted please post it to the discussion about marketing graphite vs. bamboo. i sold flyrods in missoula for three years which ought to qualify me to comment. i grew up using a very expensive fiberglass flyrod that was supposed to be top of the line. it was absolute garbage. i also occassionally got to use a nice bamboo/ the problme was that the bamboo rods were many hundreds of dollars. i was such a serious fisherman that i could hardly hold a job much less afford a bamboo rod. when the graphite rods came out they were initially very expensive. also the ones i used were all very fast: more like firing an accurate gun than gracefully casting a fly. however, a graphite rod can be mass produced and pretty soon the store where i worked was coming across deals wherewe would by fairly decent quality graphite rods with poor trimmings for $11 each and sell them for $20. i remember repeatedly getting orders in of some no-name graphite rod and taking it out in the parking lot and casting an entire line with relative grace and ease. it entirely changed the business of selling flyrods. all of a sudden you could sell a newcomer to flyfishing a $20 rod and be confident that the person was going to get a relatively decent shot at actually learning to cast. (it also changed the trout streams - now they're even crowded in Montana) another irony of the change was that initially there seemed to be a tendancy for the graphite makers to make actions as fast and powerful as possible. one advantage that us poor folks had was that we were buying the cheap graphite rods from makers that hadn't gottent the hang of producing "better quality" actions. it seemed that the cheaper rods often had slower and more graceful actions. incidently, i still fish most often with a cheap graphite rod and so do most of my serious flyfishing friends. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 19:54:49 1996 Subject: A suggestion for marketing and comradery The best marketing is word-of-mouth. After hearing one of our fellowlisters state that he would like to know more of cane rods but had never had the opportunity to use one, I said to myself, "Self", I said, "Self, why don't you extend the fly rod of friendship." So, I propose that if there are any on the list who are curious about the varying actions and attributes ofcane rods, I have some oldies, some goodies, some grotties; if you live near southern N.H., send an email and we'll arrange to meet for casting/fishing. And bring any cane and/or graphite, wood, glass, etc. fly rods to let *me* try out. I have nothing to sell, but others might. I could always lead you over to Bob C's., he might have one of A.J. Thramer's or Mike Clark's onhand. Regionally, if each listmember met just two other members in his area,we could greatly increase the knowledge and appreciation of cane for the list as a whole. Some of us who may not have had the opportunity to try other makers cane may then take glowing reports to others. Just a thought. Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 19:57:05 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Reed,you just poo pooed the idea without giving it any thought.Remember last week the tread on finishes? some finishes are goodmoisturebarriers some were good at keeping out water. So why not 2 finishes? think about it.Terry Terry,You are right. I'm sorry that I didn't reply to the issue.Actually, the use of multiple finishes has been a standby in the furniture field for centuries. Usually, you would start with a rubbed coat of shellac and pumice to smooth and fill the grain. Then a french polish using shellac or other gums and resins. Or perhaps a varnish coat. And top it all with wax.That finish is pretty tough (except against alcohol). The real issue, however, is how necessary is an inpenetrable finish? I think that depends on how much moisture you wish to exclude from the sticks. The old rodmakers would flame the cane, bevel the strips (Payne soaked the strips before beveling), immerse in hide glue, and then throwthe bound joint in warm water to await straightening. Notice the complete absence of concern about the moisture content of the sticks. Before varnishing, the joint would have settled at some equilibrium with theambium humidity, which might be high. No dehumidifiers were available to control humidity. I've seen racks of sticks standing in corners of a shop, unvarnished and after 20 years they are still straight. Sorry, again, for not listening, Terry.Best regards,Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 20:17:47 1996 Subject: Just 2% more before the IRS gets it. Perhaps the greatest disservice that the billion dollar FF gear industry did us was to redefine what FF is. As someone else noted, graphite rods, byand large, are not instruments of great delicacy. This is partly a character of the material and partly an accomodation by the industry to the novelty of High Line Speed,... or the use of HLS to justify the stiffness. Anyway, in order to provide instant gratification to the masses, and market theirstiff rods, the concept of fishing schools and "chuck n' duck" was born. Soon hordes of people were standing at the heads of pools endlessly flipping weighted flies, weighted leaders, and bobbers. DId they catch fish? You betcha! Was it fly-fishing? Sure, once you redefine flyfishing. (As they did in 1994 here in NH. Now you can heave lead and its flyfishing. Sigh.) What does this mean to cane? Would you want a short line nympher buyingone of your cane fly rods and coming back a week later with it twisted orbroken? Conclusion: Cane has no place in the modern world of FF. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 20:35:16 1996 Subject: RE: Priced too low ----------From: hexagon@odyssee.net[SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Monday, April 15, 1996 1:59 PM Subject: RE: Priced too low I have just recently talked to a couple of guys locally who refurbisholdcane rods and sell them. When they found out that I make new canerods, they were very interested in how much I would be willing to sellthem for. Not that they were interested in buying them, but as a wayto keep their prices up. If I sold a new cane rod for $500, theycouldn'tcharge $300 for a refurbished rod. I don't feel that I'm making themgoodenough or quickly enough to sell them yet, but the potential situationisthere.... The price under cutting between independent rodmakers. Theowner of a local fly fishing store recommends that when I sell them, Idon't sell for anything under $1000. He says I make them so good that that's what they are worth, but personally I think it's because hedoesn'twant the mystique of high priced cane rods to be exposed and his cane rod stock devalued. Is this price fixing? I started making my ownbecauseI couldn't afford to buy a quality cane rod. Now I make my own because Itruly enjoy crafting a quality split cane rod. Right now I would sell afewrods pretty low just to get the cost of my tools back, but later, if itshouldevolve to be my livelihood, or in the case of a few out there where it*is*their livelihood I sure wouldn't want the cost to be undercut by anewcomerwho didn't realize the value of the product. Darryl Hayashida Darryl,you have been building rods for 1 year and have been told they areworth$1000,listen nobody is going to fork out that sort of cash for anunknown. Ibet the retailer did not promise to buy them from you? they will be putinhis rack to break up the black monotony.They will look second hand in 3months. You first must find a retailer that knows cane and is trustworthy. Dont even think about doing it for a living, not unless you haveanother income. T.Ackland You missed the point of my post entirely...The point wasn't that my rods are worth $1000. What I was trying topointout was that many people in the business are trying to artificiallyinflatethe price of cane rods. I didn't for a minute believe the guy that Ishouldsell my rods for that much. He was trying to protect his investment inhisstock of cane rods. If someone buys a cane rod from me at $500, thenthere goes a sale of $1000 or more for him. Same with the guys whorefurbish old rods. If there is someone in the area selling brand newrods for the same that they are trying to sell refurbished rods for,thenwhich would you buy? But, as I was trying to point out, they have beenin the business for years and I haven't. Just like the automobileindustry in the 70's. Prices are undercut by a newcomer and the old establishedindustryis in jeopardy of going under because no one can make a living anymore. Darryl Hayashidadarryl,I dont think you understand, if your a professional rod maker you haveoverheads like rent to pay and because of the nature of the trade youcannotexploit minimum wage unskilled workers.It does not matter how good yougetyou cannot make a bamboo rod fast.There is no such thing as an overpricedrod from a professional rodmaker. I have a friend who is a professional rod maker and it is hard,the price hegets for his rods look good but they take time . Take out rent,taxes,insurance, advertising,trips to shows and loans for machinery, thereis not much left in the pot. If a guy is selling a refurbished production rod for $300 and yours areselling for $500 most punters are going to spend $300 on a named usedproduction rod. There is nothing overpriced , its worth what the market is prepared to pay.Are Gillum and Payne rods overpriced, not really,they are being purchased. If you really want to make money fishing reels look a better bet to me, youcan make them on automatic machines and charge big bucks. What you have got to do is take one of your rods to an expert and get agoodhonest critique, you cant honestly judge your own rods.T.A. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 20:54:13 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Reed,you just poo pooed the idea without giving it any thought.Remember last week the tread on finishes? some finishes are goodmoisturebarriers some were good at keeping out water. So why not 2 finishes? think about it.Terry Terry,You are right. I'm sorry that I didn't reply to the issue.Actually, the use of multiple finishes has been a standby in the furniture field for centuries. Usually, you would start with a rubbed coat of shellac and pumice to smooth and fill the grain. Then a french polish using shellac or other gums and resins. Or perhaps a varnish coat. And top it all with wax.That finish is pretty tough (except against alcohol). The real issue, however, is how necessary is an inpenetrable finish? I think that depends on how much moisture you wish to exclude from the sticks. The old rodmakers would flame the cane, bevel the strips (Payne soaked the strips before beveling), immerse in hide glue, and then throwthe bound joint in warm water to await straightening. Notice the complete absence of concern about the moisture content of the sticks. Before varnishing, the joint would have settled at some equilibrium with theambium humidity, which might be high. No dehumidifiers were available tocontrol humidity. I've seen racks of sticks standing in corners of a shop, unvarnished and after 20 years they are still straight. Sorry, again, for not listening, Terry.Best regards,Reed Reed,I have a feeling it was a wash with shellac then varnish to finish. It isonly a guess mind you.Terry Ps they had no dehumidifiers but they had ovens.Out of all the rodmakers Payne rods were consistantly the best so he musthave controlled his processes, that is the only way to consistancy.Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 15 21:43:06 1996 Subject: 73 Days If you haven't looked at the calender lately there are only 73 daysuntil TTBBBQ II. I know that long term planning isn't one of my betterorganizational skills either but in talking to Ron just the other night hesaid that only 15 had confirmed. Now I know that it is a little defeating ofthe title but if I can be of any help with decisive planning informationplease let me know. locally there are several prefered patterns but the one I like is The Sex AMania - it is two extended body bullet head spinners tied head to tail on a#2 by 8X extended hook. The 2 1/2' wing span is best. And a good practiceforthe evening fishing is to lock yourself into a totally dark closet andpractice tying it on with a 3X tippet. To train yourself away from tailingloops just use a 2oz lead sinker on a 6 weight system. Prearrange with thelocal E unit.The planned events as usual are a bit sketchy still so any specialrequests will be honored. Some of us are going to show up early just tohangout and fish a bit. Oh! And if you think you can practice up for theSporting Flies forget it - the rules have been changed again and won't beannounced until just before or during the events. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 16 08:16:44 1996 Subject: A customer? was re: marketing I have been list-lurking at rodmakers for a week or two now, trying tolearn all I can about cane rods. I may be the customer you are trying toreach. I want to fish a cane rod because, well, I want to. The aspects oftradition, history, and continuity in our sport are very important to me. Iam not impressed with the extravagant claims surrounding the latestgraphiterods. I find the woven-graphite reel seat spacers on some of them to beoffensively ugly. I just want to fish and feel good about it.What can a poor boy do? Find and refurbish a nice Heddon, Granger,etc?Buy a new rod from an independent maker? Build a rod on a Partridge orother cane blank? Buy a second-hand 'bespoke' rod? I am not ready to gointo rodbuilding at this point ( but see later note.) The find and refurbishroute makes the most sense, but I would certainly like to hear aboutprices,models etc from independent makers. I am looking for an 8 to 8 1/2 footsixweight. I fish dries only occasionally; my favorite quarry is the sea-runcutthroat; I might hook a summer steelhead while cutt fishing. I wouldespecially like to hear from makers in the Portland OR area.Later note: I use and dearly love a (shudder) graphite spey rod forsteelhead on big water. I have always wanted to build a greenheart (orbethabara, or whatever) two-hander. Are there any on this list who areintosolid-timber rods? Planing all those strips and glueing them together iscertainly beyond me at this point, but planing a square chunk into a roundone might not be. I've even collected some tapers and instructions fromoldlibrary books. Anybody out there have an odd greenheart billet or two inthedrying room?I don't understand everything I read , but I really appreciate thecivility and good humor I have found here. Thanks and tight lines (sharpplane blades? smooth varnish?)-- Roger Wiggin (aka 'Kilchis Gray' on ROFF)Portland, Oregon from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 16 09:59:03 1996 Subject: RE: Priced too low ----------From: hexagon@odyssee.net[SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Monday, April 15, 1996 6:24 PM Subject: RE: Priced too low Darryl,you have been building rods for 1 year and have been told they areworth$1000,listen nobody is going to fork out that sort of cash for anunknown. Ibet the retailer did not promise to buy them from you? they will be putinhis rack to break up the black monotony.They will look second hand in 3months. You first must find a retailer that knows cane and is trustworthy. Dont even think about doing it for a living, not unless you haveanother income. T.Ackland You missed the point of my post entirely...The point wasn't that my rods are worth $1000. What I was trying topointout was that many people in the business are trying to artificiallyinflatethe price of cane rods. I didn't for a minute believe the guy that Ishouldsell my rods for that much. He was trying to protect his investment inhisstock of cane rods. If someone buys a cane rod from me at $500, thenthere goes a sale of $1000 or more for him. Same with the guys whorefurbish old rods. If there is someone in the area selling brand newrods for the same that they are trying to sell refurbished rods for,thenwhich would you buy? But, as I was trying to point out, they have beenin the business for years and I haven't. Just like the automobileindustry in the 70's. Prices are undercut by a newcomer and the old establishedindustryis in jeopardy of going under because no one can make a living anymore. Darryl Hayashidadarryl,I dont think you understand, if your a professional rod maker you haveoverheads like rent to pay and because of the nature of the trade youcannotexploit minimum wage unskilled workers.It does not matter how good yougetyou cannot make a bamboo rod fast.There is no such thing as anoverpricedrod from a professional rodmaker. I have a friend who is a professional rod maker and it is hard,theprice hegets for his rods look good but they take time . Take out rent,taxes,insurance, advertising,trips to shows and loans for machinery,thereis not much left in the pot. If a guy is selling a refurbished production rod for $300 and yours areselling for $500 most punters are going to spend $300 on a named usedproduction rod. There is nothing overpriced , its worth what the market is prepared topay.Are Gillum and Payne rods overpriced, not really,they are beingpurchased. If you really want to make money fishing reels look a better bet to me,youcan make them on automatic machines and charge big bucks. What you have got to do is take one of your rods to an expert and get agoodhonest critique, you cant honestly judge your own rods.T.A. *Read* my post! I am saying the same thing you are! Okay, in plainwords...The guys in the business now and maybe have been for years are concernedabout being undercut in price by people just coming onto the scene. Ican seetheir concern. They are trying to let the newbie - me - know that thereis a structure to the pricing of cane rods. At this point I would sell myrodscheaply just to get the cost of my tools back. If I do that theestablishedguys lose out on a sale, and possibly if my rods are bad, that turns the customer off of buying cane rods again. They are trying to protect theirlivelihood, and rightly so. I don't object to what they are doing atall.The person who wants to buy a cane rod might though, and that's thereason I started to make my own. The cost of buying more than one was more than the cost of buying the tools and everything else to makethem. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 16 10:11:10 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings + WET bamboo This is a follow-up concerning coatings tests reported by me from DickSchiller of the Louisville, KY area. The report concerns effectiveness ofmoisture exclusion, and is reprinted below (I), and then questions by ReedCurry, printed thereafter (II), and then, Finally, the answeres (III),followed by what many of you might call Abnormal Ramblings by me (IV). Youmight want to take a look at IV even if not interested in the others. (I) 1. Melted parrafin 95% effective2. Two part Epoxy 91% (3coats) 54% (1coat)3. Two part polyurethane gloss varnish 66% (3coat) 0 (Yes zero, 1 coat) (apparently it just fills pores and penetrates at only one coat)4. Epoxy gloss varnish 50% (3 coat) 3% (1 coat)5. Orange shellac 46% (3coat) 2% (1 coat) water can leave marks onshellac6. Polyurethane varnish and Alkyd satin varnish 41% (3coat) 8% (1 coat)7. Phenolic Tung floor sealer -1% (yes, it absorbs water, one coat) 35% 3 coats8. Soya alkyd phenolic/tung gloss spar varnish 30% (3coats) 0 (one coat)9. Acrylic gloss latex varnish 10% (3coats) -1% (1coat)10. Tung oil 2% (3coats) -1% (1 coat)11. Linseed oil 0% (3coats) -5 (1coat) (yes it really absorbs water since it penetrates and forms no coat in pores. It does not polymerize well.12. Furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0% no matter how may coats! (II) Great stuff. But I have a few questions: 1/ Was the testing conducted by placing the finsh on a semi-permeable membrane (paper) between two enclosed spaces ofdiffering humidity and heat? If it was say 90% humidity on one side and 5% on the other or if the test was conducted for 40 hours... Beats me. Will see if Dick Schiller will expound on the tests from whichcame the report. However, he is out of pocket for awhile, but will inquirewhen we next communicate if he will do so. 2/ How many cane rod owners will take their beloved rod to the stream without a coat of Butchers wax on it? This seals not only from water vapor but also from DEET and other nasties. Tell us about Butchers wax - I've no experience w/it. (III) Info from Dick Schiller: The report was by Wm Feist and Gary Peterson of The Forrest Products Labandfound in the May, 1987 issue of Fine WoodWorking. In the test, two piecesofclear Pondarosa (sp?) pine were used. Both pieces were subjected to 30%relative humidity @ 80d F until saturated. One piece was then coated withthe test material (varnish, parafin, etc.). Both pieces then subjected to90% rh @ 80d F and weighed at 1, 7, and 14 days. The relative weightgainsof the the unprotected/protected pieces were used to determine themoistureexcluding effectiveness of the protective coating. Thats all I know at thispoint. (IV) The info about Payne's use of water to straighten glued-up sections isquiteinteresting. John Bokstrom has an article in the Mar/Apr 96 issue of ThePlaning Form on how to soak bamboo strips for straightening purposes. Isawhis presentation of same at the 1994 Corbit Lake, Canada gathering andcanrelate very good success. Briefly, The split strips are soaked in waterapprox 24 hrs, then straightened as usual. The wet bamboo is more pliableand straightens much easier with less heat. The very moist bamboo takesonheat much faster, and the surface evaporation during heat application doesnot allow the surface to reach temps commonly encountered, and muchlesscharing occurs (imho). Folks, no kidding, it works. Ever notice how apestynode gets more and more difficult to straighten if you have to go back toita couple of times? I think it is because it gets dryer and dryer. Incompleting the strips, they dry out and the water poses no additionalchallenges. In fact, it is not further noticed. I did a test. Had to build two tips for a classic rod butt section and didone soak and the other no-soak. The guled up sections with male ferrulesinstalled and ready for varnish were weighed on a gram scale and werew/i onegram (1/28 th oz.) of one another. Otherwise, could tell no difference, andin fact did not know which was which after binding. A couple of points: (1.) Though the idea of introducing moisture to bamboomay seem horrible, I harken back to Intro to Chem from past days. Irememberthat woody materials take on and give off intercellular moisture quiteeasily. Its the moisture inside the cells that kiln drying deals with.During planing, surface area to mass is increased significantly so normaldrying can take place at an increasing rate. (2.) Intracellular moisture is(imho) what flaming and oven curing deals with, and does so long aftermostof the between-the-cells moisture has been driven off. Would enjoy comments on this, as I am sure the jury is still out with manyofyou. Two very neat swing-arm gram/ounce scales are sold by:Highland Hardware - (800)-241-6748 One scaled 0 to 1.75 oz./100 g, theotherto 35 oz/1000 g. Covers most rods and rod sections. The Planing Form - For those of you who may not be aware of it, it is abamboo rodmaker's newsletter and very helpful. PO Box 365, Hastings, MI49058. I think it is $ 15 / yr and well worth it. Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 16 10:33:52 1996 Subject: RE: Priced too low Darryl sed about what Terry seez... :-) If a guy is selling a refurbished production rod for $300 and yours areselling for $500 most punters are going to spend $300 on a named usedproduction rod. There is nothing overpriced , its worth what the market is prepared topay. T.A. The guys in the business now and maybe have been for years areconcernedabout being undercut in price by people just coming onto the scene. Ican see their concern. They are trying to let the newbie - me - know thatthere is a structure to the pricing of cane rods. At this point I wouldsell my rods cheaply just to get the cost of my tools back. If I do thatthe established guys lose out on a sale, and possibly if my rods are bad,that turns the customer off of buying cane rods again. I have always thought along the lines of what Darryl is speaking of...if I have the same product, and put it on the market at below theprevailing rate, I am undercutting the competion. I think Terry brings up a good point though...if the customer is inthe market for a product from a well-known manufacturer, that customerwill not be looking at my product anyway - even though it may be pricedat 50% less than that of the well-known manufacturer. As Terry said,'its worth what the market is prepared to pay'. I may think that sinceI am unknown I will market my product at 50% off the prevailing rate.The fact may well be, *because* I am unknown, my product won't sellunless it's 75% off the going rate - making it attractive to those thatcouldn't otherwise afford the going rate. I think where undercutting becomes a real issue is when a well-knownmaker, delibertly cuts his price below market value, even to the pointof taking a loss, to gain a larger market share. Hoping to make upthat loss with volume. But then again, as Terry said, this ain't no high volume business!!! :-) Mike - who is still trying to complete his FIRST rod - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 16 12:16:34 1996 Subject: Re: Priced too low Well, I've been trying to avoid commenting an this thread but I can't help myself any more. I know that this may not relate to Darryls original post but.... My 2 cents: I'm a new rod maker. I have been building rods for only two years and have been selling rods to support my bamboo habit. My advice is to sell your rods for what YOU think they are worth. Compare your rods with those on the market and see how they stack up. I have found that people expect to get what they pay for and when they buy one of my rods they are not disappointed and I will guarantee that will be happy. When I first started building I was eager to sell a rod cheap to recoup some of my costs but the deal fell through, now I have sold 4 rods this year for 3 times what I would have sold that first rod for. I enjoy building for other people, to build a bamboo rod that will become a part of and enhance someone's fly fishing experience is still fun for me. Hopeful it will stay that way for a while. Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 16 14:13:40 1996 Subject: Re: Priced too low Economics is not one of my areas of expertise, but I'vefollowed the cane market, both new and used, for some timeand I would like to offer a buyer's perspective. First, there is no single cane market. By my estimations thereare several conflicting markets. I'd identify them as:The collectors market vs the fishers market, the used market vs thenew market. The problem is that segments of these markets tend tooverlap each other. Here's my breakdown: Collectors are interested in investment quality rods. Most are old (therods)but not all. A collector may be looking at some contemporary cane withfutureappreciation in mind. For example, Mike Clark's work has received a boost from J.G.'s writings. If I were a collector, I might invest in a Mike Clark rod or two. This market is often, but not always, a high end market. It isveryspecialized, and it is largely responsible for maintaining the mystique ofcaneand its price. It sets the benchmark. It has as little to do with fishing as wine collecting has to do with drinking. Contemporary builders havelittle control over this market, but they are impacted by it. On the wholeitkeeps prices up and establishes a ceiling for newer rods. Fishers can also look at both the new and used market. Here, inexpensiveproduction rods ($200 - 300) may have appeal. While some fishers in thenew cane market,like myself, believe that many inexpensive production rods of old don'toffermuch in the way of performance, quality or aesthetics. (I'd argue thatsome of those rods are so poor that they depress the fishers market share and contemporary builders would be better off if they disappeared. They give cane a bad name. :-)) Fishers who are looking for quality at a "reasonable" price point will turn to some older rods that fish well but may not have a lot of collector appeal (i.e., Phillipson) orto the rods of contemporary builders who do not have a reputation thatbrings$1000+ per rod. (I would say that the $1000+ builders are joining thecollectorsgroup.) I doubt that the fisher market is large enough to support many ofthe $700 - $999 builders and, when they acquire a measure of success, they invariablymoveup to the next level. What's the point? I guess it's that the collectors keep cane prices up andpreserveits mystique, and that the fishers' market is relatively small and limited collectors' market. On the one hand, this is problematic because it meansthatcollectors may make cane rod purchase too expensive for most fishers,while on the other, it means that cane rods can retain enough value to make it worth while fora verysmall number of craftsmen to continue building them. In other words, itis verydifficult for the cane market to grow with the rest of the fly fishingmarket becauseit is constrained by the successes of the old masters. Cane is quaint,exotic, and expensive. Also, cane has a tradition of class consciousness. Let's face it guys,graphite gavefly fishing to the masses, and even those who can afford to buy cane maynot do sobecause somewhere deep inside they feel that it would be ostentatious todo so. Irealize this view will not be popular, but I am willing to stand by it until Iamshown the error of my ways. Enough rambling.richard p.s. On different topic. A.J. has built me a 8 1/2' fast parabolic. Heshipped it with the warning that timing is critical when casting this rod. Iwould like to know more about why this is so, and I'd be interested inany advice you might have to give about casting parabolic rods. Hope I'mup to it. r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 16 15:38:22 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings + WET bamboo This is a follow-up concerning coatings tests reported by me from DickSchiller of the Louisville, KY area. The report concerns effectiveness ofmoisture exclusion, and is reprinted below (I), and then questions by ReedCurry, printed thereafter (II), and then, Finally, the answeres (III),followed by what many of you might call Abnormal Ramblings by me (IV). Youmight want to take a look at IV even if not interested in the others. (I) 1. Melted parrafin 95% effective2. Two part Epoxy 91% (3coats) 54% (1coat)3. Two part polyurethane gloss varnish 66% (3coat) 0 (Yes zero, 1 coat) (apparently it just fills pores and penetrates at only one coat)4. Epoxy gloss varnish 50% (3 coat) 3% (1 coat)5. Orange shellac 46% (3coat) 2% (1 coat) water can leave marks onshellac6. Polyurethane varnish and Alkyd satin varnish 41% (3coat) 8% (1 coat)7. Phenolic Tung floor sealer -1% (yes, it absorbs water, one coat) 35% 3 coats8. Soya alkyd phenolic/tung gloss spar varnish 30% (3coats) 0 (one coat)9. Acrylic gloss latex varnish 10% (3coats) -1% (1coat)10. Tung oil 2% (3coats) -1% (1 coat)11. Linseed oil 0% (3coats) -5 (1coat) (yes it really absorbs water sinceit penetrates and forms no coat in pores. It does not polymerize well.12. Furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0% no matter how may coats! (II) Great stuff. But I have a few questions: 1/ Was the testing conducted by placing the finsh on a semi-permeable membrane (paper) between two enclosed spaces ofdiffering humidity and heat? If it was say 90% humidity on one side and 5% onthe other or if the test was conducted for 40 hours... Beats me. Will see if Dick Schiller will expound on the tests from whichcame the report. However, he is out of pocket for awhile, but willinquirewhen we next communicate if he will do so. 2/ How many cane rod owners will take their beloved rod to the stream without a coat of Butchers wax on it? This seals not only from water vapor but also from DEET and other nasties. Tell us about Butchers wax - I've no experience w/it. (III) Info from Dick Schiller: The report was by Wm Feist and Gary Peterson of The Forrest ProductsLab andfound in the May, 1987 issue of Fine WoodWorking. In the test, twopieces ofclear Pondarosa (sp?) pine were used. Both pieces were subjected to 30%relative humidity @ 80d F until saturated. One piece was then coatedwiththe test material (varnish, parafin, etc.). Both pieces then subjected to90% rh @ 80d F and weighed at 1, 7, and 14 days. The relative weightgainsof the the unprotected/protected pieces were used to determine themoistureexcluding effectiveness of the protective coating. Thats all I know atthispoint. (IV) The info about Payne's use of water to straighten glued-up sections isquiteinteresting. John Bokstrom has an article in the Mar/Apr 96 issue of ThePlaning Form on how to soak bamboo strips for straightening purposes. Isawhis presentation of same at the 1994 Corbit Lake, Canada gathering andcanrelate very good success. Briefly, The split strips are soaked in waterapprox 24 hrs, then straightened as usual. The wet bamboo is morepliableand straightens much easier with less heat. The very moist bamboo takesonheat much faster, and the surface evaporation during heat applicationdoesnot allow the surface to reach temps commonly encountered, and muchlesscharing occurs (imho). Folks, no kidding, it works. Ever notice how apestynode gets more and more difficult to straighten if you have to go back toita couple of times? I think it is because it gets dryer and dryer. Incompleting the strips, they dry out and the water poses no additionalchallenges. In fact, it is not further noticed. I did a test. Had to build two tips for a classic rod butt section and didone soak and the other no-soak. The guled up sections with male ferrulesinstalled and ready for varnish were weighed on a gram scale and werew/i onegram (1/28 th oz.) of one another. Otherwise, could tell no difference,andin fact did not know which was which after binding. A couple of points: (1.) Though the idea of introducing moisture tobamboomay seem horrible, I harken back to Intro to Chem from past days. Irememberthat woody materials take on and give off intercellular moisture quiteeasily. Its the moisture inside the cells that kiln drying deals with.During planing, surface area to mass is increased significantly so normaldrying can take place at an increasing rate. (2.) Intracellular moisture is(imho) what flaming and oven curing deals with, and does so long aftermostof the between-the-cells moisture has been driven off. Would enjoy comments on this, as I am sure the jury is still out withmany ofyou. Two very neat swing-arm gram/ounce scales are sold by:Highland Hardware - (800)-241-6748 One scaled 0 to 1.75 oz./100 g, theotherto 35 oz/1000 g. Covers most rods and rod sections. The Planing Form - For those of you who may not be aware of it, it is abamboo rodmaker's newsletter and very helpful. PO Box 365, Hastings,MI49058. I think it is $ 15 / yr and well worth it. Richard Tyree My experiece is that if you warm a strip of bamboo that contains toomuchmoisture all you are doing is chasing out the water from that area.Youstraighten it and put it aside and the moisture will wick back and the kinkwill re-appear. T.Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 16 16:02:17 1996 Subject: selling cane rods If you want to sell cane rods you need to target your market. What are cane rods best at? Why cane over graphite or fiberglass? Light-weight lines, delicate and accurate casting, gentle *relaxing*action, soft delivery of dry flies, the craftmanship of fine woodworking,the unique complex tapers, the history of the sport - that's what makes cane unique. That's what you should be selling. It should be *a given* that a 3 wt. rod would of course be made from bamboo... Russell Gelinasgelinas@ekman.sr.unh.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 16 18:21:54 1996 Subject: Re: selling cane rods Russ You make a good point. Also people must realize they are talkingmodernproduction technology (graphite) versus handcrafted excellence. We are intheChevy (or should I say Yugo) versus the Cadilac or Rolls Royce. Graphite is cheap to produce - basic ecconomics - that is why youcan havelifetime warrentees - not because they are "better". Fine cane rods are still perceived to be the "ultimate" by a majorityofpeople who are "educated" fisherpersons. I fish the mountain streams andthere it is a world of difference between the cane and graphite rods. I canmake graphite look terrible because it doesn't perform well under thosecircumstances. I just tell people - when your abilities exceed the capabilities ofyourgraphite - come see me - I will give something that will allow you toperformup to your abilities. Wayne has his "few payments on a bass boat" tale that really bringshome theecconomics - If you are "serious" about flyfishing - a custom cane rod istheway to go and it is really cheap in the long run. Enough said Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 03:56:46 1996 Subject: Garrison 193 line wt A friend of mine wants to know what line class Garrison rod no 193 6'9" ismeant for. I am sure some of you knows. --Terje from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 01:55:08 1996 Subject: Trading Rods Has anyone thought about trading rods between builders? I think it mightbefun and interesting. A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 09:07:39 1996 Subject: Re: Trading Rods A.J. seez... Has anyone thought about trading rods between builders? I think it mightbefun and interesting. A.J. can I be first in line!!!? As soon as I finish this FIRSTrod I'm building, I would absolutely love to trade you for oneof yours!!!!!!!!!!! :-)))) Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. ORN (Obligatory Rodmaking Note :-) Gluing tonight!!! from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 09:21:55 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison 193 line wt Terje, in a line quandry asks... A friend of mine wants to know what line class Garrison rod no 193 6'9"ismeant for. I am sure some of you knows. If all else fails, feed the dimensions into Wayne's program,changing line weights until you get maximum stresses of about180,000. I recently wondered how that might work so I triedout on a taper with an unknown line weight. The rod was one of fellow listmember, John Zimny's. The taperwas in one of the back issues of _The Planing Form_. I figured Icould run the taper through Wayne's program, come up with whatI thought to be the ideal line weight, and then be able to checkmy assumptions with the maker. Well, I did just that, came up with a 5wgt, and checked withJohn...sure enough, he designed the rod for a 5wgt! Chalk oneup for the computer!!! :-) So while, as someone posted not too long ago, the math may beflawed, it does the job!!! Mike - ComputerNerd - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 09:45:38 1996 Subject: Math formula? Someone recently mentioned a math programwhich can be used to determine the properline weight for a rod (once the tapersare entered)...where can I find thisprogram? thanks! Jared jtausig@acs.bu.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 10:04:54 1996 Subject: equipment Hello rodbuilders! I am Paul Martino, a chemist (soon to be a rodmaker) teaching at a small community college located in the Flathead valley of Montana. My plan is to spend the summer obtaining/building all the supplies necessary to build my first split cane. I have a few questions that I am sure those of you who have been doing this a while can answer. 1. I have been looking at designs for binders. The Herter's and Garrison's style look similar (Herter's looks alot easier to build). Does Garrison's offer any major advantage? Why is it necessary to weight the belt, since the tension device controls the tension on the winding thread? 2. Does anyone use heat tape to dry/temper their cane? I have seen several designs for ovens and thought that it may be simple to just wrap heat tape around the splines and control the temp. with a reostat and thermometer. 3. To keep water out of chemicals chemist often use desicants (eg.calcium chloride). They are easy to activate (just bake the water out of the calcium chloride). Does anyone use desicants to store their newly heat treated splines or do y'all think that something like this would beoverkill? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 10:30:10 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? Jared seez... Someone recently mentioned a math programwhich can be used to determine the properline weight for a rod (once the tapersare entered)...where can I find thisprogram? The math is all laid out in Garrison/Carmichael's book,_A Masters Guide to Bamboo Rodmaking_. Fellow listmember,Wayne Cattanach wrote a program based on the Garrison math,and includes it with his book _Handcrafting Bamboo Flyrods_ Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 10:30:10 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? Jared seez... Someone recently mentioned a math programwhich can be used to determine the properline weight for a rod (once the tapersare entered)...where can I find thisprogram? The math is all laid out in Garrison/Carmichael's book,_A Masters Guide to Bamboo Rodmaking_. Fellow listmember,Wayne Cattanach wrote a program based on the Garrison math,and includes it with his book _Handcrafting Bamboo Flyrods_ Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 21:01:34 1996 Subject: Precieved Value Perhaps I'm looking at a different group of rod buyers or perhaps themaker needs to look for a different market. It may sound odd to some but Ihave never been successful at selling rods locally (West Michigan). Theonlyexplaination is that locally they know me too well. (That sounds baddoesn'tit) Just a good ol' boy. I am invited to do presentations (and paid forit)thousands of miles from home - but I've never been asked by the localT/Ugroup(when I've offered to do it for free). I've seen and heard of several makers get burned out because theywouldstick a rod in the local shop and tried devaluing their work to promotesales. If you put a pencil to selling a new bamboo rod for $500.00 a ballpark labor figure is $5.50/hr. The last time I went into McDonalds theywereoffering $6.25 to start. Now I know that you will counter "but this is myhobby" and hopefully it is. But look at the emotional trap that you could befalling for - when in the wee hours one night it dawns on you that the onlyreason you are making sales is that you are the cheapest - when in realityyou wanted to be known for being the best.I have known makers that were getting Fair Market value for their rodsafter making only a few - part of the reason is that they knew what theentrylevel of quality was and secondly they held there integrity on the value oftheir rods. A true story(however sad): I know a fellow that would attend a flyfishingshow and he would try to sell objects. And because he wanted to sell outonsunday afternoon this fellow would go into a BARGAIN BENNY approach ofsalesand would try to drop his price and deal around for whatever he could forhisobjects. Well two thing happened - first he pissed off the customers thatpaid full retail - but more importantly he put everyone on alert for thenextyear. At the show the following year everyone held back from buying thisfellows objects until sunday afternoon when the forecasted bargainsprevailed. And in talking with him he was discouraged because he wasn'tgetting the respect for his objects that he thought he should. Now anothercompany is selling the objects and getting 10 times what this fellow wastrying to get. Moral: Quality - Value - Market.Terry is correct(for the most part) when he says that putting your workin shops can be a mistake. The owner gets added value to the shop and yougeta rod that can look like last years worn out tennis shoes. Perhaps a better demonstration for the shop some saturday. You being the featured artist. The Myst - percieved value - if you don't value your work don't expertothers to value it either. If you do value your then find others thatappreciate it as well. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 21:01:46 1996 Subject: RE: Trading Rods This is a very interesting idea. The fly fishing list has fly swapson a regular basis. We could have a rod swap. We probablyneed to stipulate the length and/or line weight, and maybehandle and reel seat type also, since everyone has differentpreferences. So maybe a generic 7 ft. 3 wt. 2 piece with areverse half wells grip. Other suggestions? Darryl Hayashida ----------From: DIXALEE@aol.com[SMTP:DIXALEE@aol.com]Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 1996 11:41 PM Subject: Trading Rods Has anyone thought about trading rods between builders? I think itmight befun and interesting. A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 21:01:59 1996 Subject: Re: equipment Paul: To answer a couple of your points: 1. With the Garrison/Herter's/Kreider single-string binder, the belt mustbeunder tension to provide traction. The belt tension also squeezes thesplines together. I think the Herter's binder is actually sort ofcumbersomedespite its apparent simplicity, but the Garrison and Kreider versions bothwork well. There are binders other than the single-string type - - onesthatwind two or four threads at once with counterrotating disks. I use thesingle-string type, but if you're just starting out you may wish to checkoutthe options. Back issues of The Planing Form have drawings, and there's aWeb page that Bruce runs, let me see,http://www.cybercom.net/~bconner/rod.html. I think that's it. 2. The only way anybody learns anything new is by trying stuff. That said,one of the most important results of heat treating bamboo is theevaporationof moisture, and I would have thought that heat tape, were it woundcloselyenough to apply heat (about 350-375F) evenly, would interfere withevaporation and simply cook the bamboo in its own steam. If you have thetape, though, what the hell. Let us know. If heat tape really gets thathot, maybe you could use it wound around a pipe as a heating element andgetyour evaporation. You'd need a long tape in either case, and I'd hate tothink how much juice a tape that long would suck at 350 degrees,assumingthat such a product exists. 3. Yes, chemical dessicant is used some. In one of the earlier issues ofThe Planing Form, Wayne advised using a little dessicant in a rod tube andstoring the splines in the tube when not working on them. If you don'thavethe space for a heat cabinet or you need an interim measure, maybe that'stheway to go. A cabinet with a light bulb in the bottom (or an electric heattreating oven turned to lowlowlow) is the accepted brute force solutionandis more convenient because you can spread things out, hang sections invarious stages of completion and see what you're grabbing. You may knowmoreabout chemical dessicants than I, however. How much is a manageabledose ofdessicant capable of lowering the humidity in, say, a rod tube? How longdoes it take? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 21:03:26 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison 193 line wt Hello Terje: According to Ernest Schwiebert in "Trout Two - Tackle" that rod requiresa #4 DT. five years ago I cast a replica by Dave Klausmeyer that worked justfine with the # 4 DT. The rod was med flamed and have no idea what thetempering procedure was. However, the rod was no noodle - very pleasantandstrong. If there are those who havn't read the above mentioned book, ithasa lot of good info on most of the old masters and a lot of their rods. ISBN:0-525-48107-9 Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 21:05:13 1996 Subject: RE: Trading Rods Mike has brought up a good point. The better known rodmakers on thelist would be trading something worth more to the beginning makersthan they would be getting in return. Perhaps what we should do isstipulate that these rods are to be sent back, or if we have a lot ofpeople participating, sent on to the next person. The rods would becirculated around so everyone could see everyone else's work. Cheap mailing tubes can be made out of PVC pipe and end caps.I would also appreciate a critique of my work from more experiencedrodmakers. Darryl Hayashida ----------From: michael@wupsych.wustl.edu[SMTP:michael@wupsych.wustl.edu]Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 1996 6:56 AM Cc: DIXALEE@aol.comSubject: Re: Trading Rods A.J. seez... Has anyone thought about trading rods between builders? I think it mightbefun and interesting. A.J. can I be first in line!!!? As soon as I finish this FIRSTrod I'm building, I would absolutely love to trade you for oneof yours!!!!!!!!!!! :-)))) Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. ORN (Obligatory Rodmaking Note :-) Gluing tonight!!! from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 21:07:11 1996 Subject: New guy on the block I'm fairly new to Bamboo. I've collected several cheap rods. I'vemodified several glass and graphite rods overthe years, replacing reel seats, guides, and grips. I've even built a 6'bamboo rod from the tip and mid sections I've come across. However, what I'm planning now is a little more ambitious. I've recentlycome into possession of what I believe to be the butt section of a H-I7'9'' Token queen. I've also come up with a collection of miscellaneousparts from other rods. I plan to build a 7' three piece from the parts.My problem is this: I've never worked with metal ferrules(sp). I believe I'll need to fit themto all three sections of the rod. The books I've read leave something to be desired on this point. Any suggestion? Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 21:07:51 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison 193 line wt A friend of mine wants to know what line class Garrison rod no 193 6'9"ismeant for. I am sure some of you knows. --Terje If you can cast, a #3 wt is perfect, if you cant cast, a #4 wt is ok. A #5wt is too much, the rod will run out of steam before you get too much linein the air. Bamboo is great for delicate light line presentation and a 5 weight isgettingup towards the area where graphite excels. The only real way is to put a line on the rod and try it, It must be a lotquicker than suspect math and possibly more fun. T.Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 21:12:29 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison 193 line wt A friend of mine wants to know what line class Garrison rod no 193 6'9"ismeant for. I am sure some of you knows. --TerjeTerje,If you can cast then a # 3 wt. line, if you cant cast then a # 4 wt. line #5is too heavy you cant keep any length of line in the air, you run out ofsteam. regards, Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 21:13:24 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison 193 line wt Terje, in a line quandry asks... A friend of mine wants to know what line class Garrison rod no 193 6'9"ismeant for. I am sure some of you knows. If all else fails, feed the dimensions into Wayne's program,changing line weights until you get maximum stresses of about180,000. I recently wondered how that might work so I triedout on a taper with an unknown line weight. The rod was one of fellow listmember, John Zimny's. The taperwas in one of the back issues of _The Planing Form_. I figured Icould run the taper through Wayne's program, come up with whatI thought to be the ideal line weight, and then be able to checkmy assumptions with the maker. Well, I did just that, came up with a 5wgt, and checked withJohn...sure enough, he designed the rod for a 5wgt! Chalk oneup for the computer!!! :-) So while, as someone posted not too long ago, the math may beflawed, it does the job!!! Mike - ComputerNerd - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. MIke,help me out here, I must be so out of touch. So what you do is you use acomputer to tell you what line to use, correct? Call me old fashioned, butwhat wrong with putting a line on a rod? Your ideas seem so far removedfrommy philosophy its almost as if you guys are trying to fool us old farts. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 22:11:59 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? Jerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 22:12:18 1996 Subject: Re: equipment Hello rodbuilders! I am Paul Martino, a chemist (soon to be a rodmaker) teaching at a small community college located in the Flathead valley of Montana. My plan is to spend the summer obtaining/building all the supplies necessary to build my first split cane. I have a few questions that I am sure those of you who have been doing this a while can answer. 1. I have been looking at designs for binders. The Herter's and Garrison's style look similar (Herter's looks alot easier to build). Does Garrison's offer any major advantage? Why is it necessary toweight the belt, since the tension device controls the tension on the winding thread? 2. Does anyone use heat tape to dry/temper their cane? I have seen several designs for ovens and thought that it may be simple to just wrap heat tape around the splines and control the temp. with a reostat and thermometer. 3. To keep water out of chemicals chemist often use desicants (eg.calcium chloride). They are easy to activate (just bake the water out of the calcium chloride). Does anyone use desicants to store their newly heat treated splines or do y'all think that something like this would beoverkill? Paul,Stick to the book now,you sound a little to smart by far,the idea is tomakeit as difficult as possible.T.Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 22:14:12 1996 Subject: Re: Precieved Value Wayne,Another point in keeping your rods at a reasonable price, that is a price that is an estimate of their true worth, is that no one wants a "bargain luxury". Its like the old story about the fellow trying to sell a box of knives, he saw similar knives selling for $5, so he marked his at $2.50. They didn't sell. Then he took half the box and marked them $7. The $7 knives sold out, still no-one would purchase the "cheap" $2.50 knives right beside them.IMHO, a decent new cane rod is underpriced at $750. I would expect to pay $900 for such a rod, especially when Orvis (some have said, "Builtto last, not to cast") charges $1400. Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 22:33:32 1996 Subject: Re: Precieved Value Perhaps I'm looking at a different group of rod buyers or perhaps themaker needs to look for a different market. It may sound odd to some butIhave never been successful at selling rods locally (West Michigan). Theonlyexplaination is that locally they know me too well. (That sounds baddoesn'tit) Just a good ol' boy. I am invited to do presentations (and paid forit)thousands of miles from home - but I've never been asked by the localT/Ugroup(when I've offered to do it for free). I've seen and heard of several makers get burned out because theywouldstick a rod in the local shop and tried devaluing their work to promotesales. If you put a pencil to selling a new bamboo rod for $500.00 a ballpark labor figure is $5.50/hr. The last time I went into McDonalds theywereoffering $6.25 to start. Now I know that you will counter "but this is myhobby" and hopefully it is. But look at the emotional trap that you couldbefalling for - when in the wee hours one night it dawns on you that theonlyreason you are making sales is that you are the cheapest - when inrealityyou wanted to be known for being the best.I have known makers that were getting Fair Market value for theirrodsafter making only a few - part of the reason is that they knew what theentrylevel of quality was and secondly they held there integrity on the value oftheir rods. A true story(however sad): I know a fellow that would attend a flyfishingshow and he would try to sell objects. And because he wanted to sell outonsunday afternoon this fellow would go into a BARGAIN BENNY approach ofsalesand would try to drop his price and deal around for whatever he could forhisobjects. Well two thing happened - first he pissed off the customers thatpaid full retail - but more importantly he put everyone on alert for thenextyear. At the show the following year everyone held back from buying thisfellows objects until sunday afternoon when the forecasted bargainsprevailed. And in talking with him he was discouraged because he wasn'tgetting the respect for his objects that he thought he should. Now anothercompany is selling the objects and getting 10 times what this fellowwastrying to get. Moral: Quality - Value - Market.Terry is correct(for the most part) when he says that putting yourworkin shops can be a mistake. The owner gets added value to the shop and yougeta rod that can look like last years worn out tennis shoes. Perhaps a better demonstration for the shop some saturday. You being the featured artist. The Myst - percieved value - if you don't value your work don't expertothers to value it either. If you do value your then find others thatappreciate it as well. Wayne Good Piece Wayne, I have a similar scenario going in Canada,Canadians are a mite strange,they will only except a product that has made it in the states. I've been a little hard on the young guys that think their rods are the bestthing since sliced bread,I remember, and I bet you do when we firststarted?Basically anyone can glue a couple of splines together,but that is only thestart.You have got to get out there and show your rods to some experts andget shot down, and get shot down some more. Then you put your rods onconsignment in any shop that is prepared to take them ,then you startgetting robbed blind.I'm just trying to prevent what I went through. You and I still have our day time jobs,would we cut our prices if this wasour only income? I get guys phoning me up saying they love my rods but arenot as yet in a position to buy them at the advertised price, I'm shure getthe same story? It seems a tough market. We have got to get to these graphite flyfishermen and convert them, then we will have all the work we can handle. Len Codella said to me once,"the bamboo rod market is this big", holdinghishands about 1 foot apart,"never any bigger never any smaller". I personally think that we are in a position right now to to expand on thatmarket, nothing has come along since graphite and that has been for 20yearsits going to take a strategy. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 22:41:40 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison 193 line wt At 08:58 PM 4/17/96 -0400, you wrote:Terje, in a line quandry asks... A friend of mine wants to know what line class Garrison rod no 1936'9" ismeant for. I am sure some of you knows. If all else fails, feed the dimensions into Wayne's program,changing line weights until you get maximum stresses of about180,000. I recently wondered how that might work so I triedout on a taper with an unknown line weight. The rod was one of fellow listmember, John Zimny's. The taperwas in one of the back issues of _The Planing Form_. I figured Icould run the taper through Wayne's program, come up with whatI thought to be the ideal line weight, and then be able to checkmy assumptions with the maker. Well, I did just that, came up with a 5wgt, and checked withJohn...sure enough, he designed the rod for a 5wgt! Chalk oneup for the computer!!! :-) So while, as someone posted not too long ago, the math may beflawed, it does the job!!! Mike - ComputerNerd - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. MIke,help me out here, I must be so out of touch. So what you do is you use acomputer to tell you what line to use, correct? Call me old fashioned, butwhat wrong with putting a line on a rod? Your ideas seem so far removedfrommy philosophy its almost as if you guys are trying to fool us old farts. Terry has a good point here... Either a computer or perseverance can tellus what Mr. Garrison had in mind. Only the rod in hand with a line strungcan tell us how it FEELS with a DT4 vs. a WF5! Not all may agree, but Ithink that casting a newly completed rod with a variety of lines is part ofthe R&D process! Additionally, I don't think you need $50 lines - Air Cell2s are the preferred line of some bamboo people and cost quite a bit less.Often Codella's & others have used lines, that would be fine for test casts, Taverns gravel lot! Better yet, how many of us have! Cheers,Gord from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 22:44:40 1996 Subject: Re: Precieved Value Wayne,Another point in keeping your rods at a reasonable price, that is a price that is an estimate of their true worth, is that no one wants a "bargain luxury". Its like the old story about the fellow trying to sell a box of knives, he saw similar knives selling for $5, so he marked his at $2.50. They didn't sell. Then he took half the box and marked them $7. The $7 knives sold out, still no-one would purchase the "cheap" $2.50 knives right beside them.IMHO, a decent new cane rod is underpriced at $750. I would expect to pay $900 for such a rod, especially when Orvis (some have said, "Builtto last, not to cast") charges $1400. Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net Reed hi,about 4 years ago I was down in Manchester VT and I managed to tag on theend of a party of visitors around the Orvis plant,Iwas particularlyinteresred in the bamboo operation. Got to where they mill the bamboo,milling mc covered in plastic,"shouldhavebeen here last week,one truckload of bamboo scrap left for the maplesyrupindustry,they use it for boiling". (in oct)See a Bunsen burner alight,"old George who does does our straighteningmustbe at break". I saw nothing to do with bamboo,could not smell bamboo cooking, no glue,noshavings, nothing. They do not make bamboo rods anymore,they perhaps buy the blanks andfinishthem in house. I think they have the rods made completely outside, perhapsoverseas. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 22:57:56 1996 Subject: Re: equipment In a message dated 96-04-17 10:58:30 EDT, you write: 1. I have been looking at designs for binders. The Herter's and Garrison's style look similar (Herter's looks alot easier to build). Does Garrison's offer any major advantage? Why is it necessary toweight the belt, since the tension device controls the tension on the winding thread? 2. Does anyone use heat tape to dry/temper their cane? I have seen several designs for ovens and thought that it may be simple to just wrap heat tape around the splines and control the temp. with a reostat and thermometer. 3. To keep water out of chemicals chemist often use desicants (eg.calcium chloride). They are easy to activate (just bake the water out of the calcium chloride). Does anyone use desicants to store their newly heat treated splines or do y'all think that something like this would beoverkill? (1) I used a derivation of the Herter's design for 5 yrs or so and found itquite ok. I think the weight is to provide winding pressure and the threadthen maintains it. (2) No thoughts on this. (3) George Maurer does and feels quite strongly about it. Best Regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 23:16:12 1996 Subject: Re: Precieved Value from the perspective of a potential buyer, I hate like the devil to buywithout trying. I would be willing to travel a 100 miles or so to be ableto inspect a variety of cane rods....I know that the makers on the listhave a gathering to exchange ideas, fish etc. ... have never seen arodmaker(cane) at an FF show (oops! sorry AJ belive you were at one inPortland several years ago) too bad it isn't economically practical tohave a series of trade fairs where craftsman get together and displaytheircraft on a regular basis. There is an event in Portland Oregon every springwhere local rod makers demonstrate their craft...would be interesting toexpand the event into a kind of trade show. I belong to the Anglers Club of Portland which meets monthly from Sept.thruJune...every June the meeting is held at a casting pond and the mainattraction is the opportunity to look at and try different cane rodsbelonging to various members. As a consumer, I feel that the difficulty infinding cane to fondle, cast and look at is a major obstacle in marketingthe product. Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 17 23:17:38 1996 Subject: Re: Trading Rods Ever consider a Medieval trade show at say Silver Creek (Hayspur HatcheryCampground) over a weekend in July? Invite the consumer too.Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:14:50 1996 Subject: Re:Equipment Those were some good ideas. You should go forth and try them to see if itimproves the state of the rodbuilding art. I am at least partially set in myways. It is time again for new ideas. If it works GREAT if it does not thenwe can add that to our storehouse of knowlege also. There is no completefailure in cane. Build and let us know how it worked.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:15:07 1996 Subject: re:Garrison 193 Concerning the question of line weight on a 193. I have personaly alwaysfound the Garrison tapers dreadful to use. Remember that that is apersonalviewpoint. The tapers cast but if I was forced to use them as designed Iwould have to go plastic. I preferred a DT3 . You might like a WF5. Thankgoodness my first rod was a Granger. A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:15:51 1996 Subject: Re:trades I would prefer not to put monetary value on the ropds to be exchanged. Ibelieve it would defeat the purpose and a newer builder has to work justashard to complete a rod as a more experienced builder. I would also not liketo see a 'standard' rod as it would tend to make everyone conform to anarbitrary ideal. We all have a favorite rod or taper. Perhaps when we haveaspare rod or an experiment that we would like a critique on we could postanote and see what offers develop. EXAMPLEI have a 7ft 3in 4wt 3pc rod that is a new taper idea. Would like to trade END EXAMPLE A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:16:25 1996 Subject: re:Marketing/prices There has been a consistent view that a rod has to cost X to be a topqualityeffort and that the consumer will not puchase them unless the rods arepricedat X or above. On the other hand the MOST consistent complaint has been that the rodsaretoo expensive. ie: my GIZMO 100 graphite cost me 79.95 at K Mart so whatareall of you cane dudes gonna do about that. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:16:55 1996 Subject: Glues Is there a glue FAQ somewhere, or can someone give a general overview of types/advan/disadvan/uses etc??? thanksTom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:16:56 1996 Subject: Re: Precieved Value IMHO, a decent new cane rod is underpriced at $750. I would expectto pay $900 for such a rod, especially when Orvis (some have said, "Builttolast, not to cast") charges $1400.Reed 1) Does Orvis ~really~ sell cane rods or do they simply feel obligated toadvertise them in order to remind people of who they are? I think Orviswould gladly drop their cane line entirely if they weren't worried abouttheirimage. Charging more than people are willing to pay gives Orvis the bestofboth worlds. (I was in the Manchester store last summer, and they haveone canerod on their 8' wide rod display rack. It looked like it had been there forten yearsand hardly touched - covered with dust. This year I'll check for cobwebs.) 2) You're correct about $750 being underpriced and I hope Thramer readsthisnow that I own a couple of his sticks. Raise the price, A.J. :-) His rods are definitely worth more than he charges. On the other hand, they're not sitting in the corner of his shop.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:17:07 1996 Subject: Garrison/Carmichael A master`s.... Hello folks! I haven`t been able to contact any Finnish rodmakers to get moreknowledge about rodbuilding. Also I have tried to find Garrison`s bookA master`s guide to building a bamboo fly rod, but I haven`t been able to find it anywhere :- (Due to this problem of mine I was wondering if any of you guys might be willing to make a "change". Send that book to me , and I will sendsomething Finnish stuff back. Other book that might be good for me is Wayne Cattanach`s Handcrafting Bamboo Flyrods.So if there is somebody interested in this "opportunity" -> throw me amail. I am getting desperate!!!! -knowledge increases the pain- Seppo Karkkainenseppo.karkkainen@ntc.nokia.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:57:56 1996 Subject: Re: equipment In a message dated 96-04-17 10:58:30 EDT, you wrote: 1. I have been looking at designs for binders. The Herter's and Garrison's style look similar (Herter's looks alot easier to build). Does Garrison's offer any major advantage? Why is it necessary toweight the belt, since the tension device controls the tension on the winding thread? 2. Does anyone use heat tape to dry/temper their cane? I have seen several designs for ovens and thought that it may be simple to just wrap heat tape around the splines and control the temp. with a reostat and thermometer. 3. To keep water out of chemicals chemist often use desicants (eg.calcium chloride). They are easy to activate (just bake the water out of the calcium chloride). Does anyone use desicants to store their newly heat treated splines or do y'all think that something like this would beoverkill? I have given some thought to the use of heating tapes in the past,primarilybased on the low cost of the tapes and simplicity of the control systems.There are several problems which I have yet to resolve: 1. If you consider direct contact with the wrapped splines, the tape mustbewrapped in such a way as to exert the same contact pressure at all pointsoryou will get temp gradients. Not a problem on butts but difficult on thintip sections. 2. Since the tape will be "cold" when wrapped, the rod section must becycled from room temp to final temp and back to room temp. Depending ontherate of temp rise/fall reciprocity (temp X time ) will be an issue. An alternative would be to wrap the tape around a pyrex tube (you canwatchthe process) of sufficient diameter and basically create a small oven. Butagain there are a few problems: 3. There will be significant thermal losses at the ends of the tube wherethey are exposed to the ambient requiring a much longer oven to get a "flatzone". 4. The diameter of the tubing is critical, to large ex. 1" and the availablelength of the heating tape becomes an issue. Too small ex. 3/8" and thethermal load of the spline on the oven will radically change thetemperature. 5. In either case I believe an electronic control system will be required tomaintain the temperatures. So there goes the cost advantage of a cheaptape/reostat/thermometer philosophy. I finally opted for a vertical hot air system. Best Regards,Ed Muraski from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:58:13 1996 Subject: cane vs. graphite Hi, all: In the discussions of marketing cane rods, some of the comments comparing cane to graphite generally implied that cane is better inlight line weights, while graphite is better for heavier line weights.I don't believe this is always the case. I have not yet begun building cane rods, but I have fished cane almost exclusively since I was old enough to cast (and my hair is now beginning to gray), mostly 4 to 6 weights for trout. Since moving to the midwest, however, I spend a lot of time fishing small streams for bass. This fishing typically involves fairly short casts with rather large (#2 - #4), albeit mostly unweighted, flies. I find that 8' to 8-1/2', 7 wt. or even 8 wt. cane rods are ideal for this type of fishing. Graphite (because of lack of mass?) fails miserably byfailing to load for short casts. On a saltwater flat graphite may indeed be superior, but for situations like my bass streams, there is or should be a market for larger cane rods. And besides, graphite looks terrible. New to the list,Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:58:25 1996 Subject: re:Garrison 193 Mr. Thramer, I have only had experience with a few rods manufacturers and never evenseena Garrison. What makes Garrison's so dreadful? Regards, Don Concerning the question of line weight on a 193. I have personaly alwaysfound the Garrison tapers dreadful to use. Remember that that is apersonalviewpoint. The tapers cast but if I was forced to use them as designed Iwould have to go plastic. I preferred a DT3 . You might like a WF5. Thankgoodness my first rod was a Granger. A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:58:49 1996 Subject: Rod Pricing To All, Have watched the rod pricing thread with interest. This same discussionwasundertaken @ the last Merritt B.C. get-together with no result other thanweall found out that the pricing was different for each builder. Seemed to bea mix of what the traffic would bear tempered by what the individualbelieved his/her output was worth and the geographic area he was sellinginto. The rods by amateur builders ranged from $ 800.00 CDN > $ 1200.00US.approx. Quite a spread. The highest was the pro's and from what I saw, therod was worth it. Further, a discussion topic was raised about a guild. This topic wasintroduced @ the Merritt meeting and was dropped as there appeared to benoconsenus on who would do the judging to see if the rod maker's output was"Good enough" to be rated a journey man builder. I expect that this subjectwill raise its head occasionally as new builders enter the scene. Have watched the "perfect rod" thread also. I build rods to suit myself,always seeking prefection but I expect I will never attain it. Certainlyselling one of those rods is difficult. Like selling one of the kids. Got todo it however to keep yourself in parts and cane. I, like others, have no abilities, if too much, lose a sale. You shouldn't comparing yourself tothe pro's. As someone said, they got expenses. The amateur does too butprotects his wife from reality by not explaing them clearly even tohimself. Terry suggests that we wait for the plastic boys to grow up and switch tocane. I hope they don't. Watch them guys cast like a windshield wiper onhigh just plain tires me out. Don't know if a wood product could keep up toall that twitching and if it tried, the failure rate would likely be high.Also, graphite appeals to the type "A" personaility, where cane isdefinitely a type "B" material. Cane appeals to a certain market segementthat understands what a fishing rod is and should be and is prepared to paythe price. Regards, Don A from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 09:59:20 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? Terry ponders... :-) Mike,. Help me on this, I'm so out of touch with rodmaking it seems.Do you guyshonestly need a computer to to tell you what weight of line to put on afishing rod? It must be me because it seems so ludicrous, shurely nothingcould be easier than hanging different line on a rod and trying a fewcasts. Terry, I just see it as another FUN tool to play with. Sure, youcould put could just put on different lines until you came uponone that you think is best for the rod, but sometimes it's justPLAIN FUN to try something different. Then again, there is the situation where a person might not haveaccess to a complete arsenal of line weights. This tool doesa good job of putting one in the ballpark, if he has to go looking I for one, being a tyro at this, would have no idea. Bottom line? In my opinion, you're absolutely right Terry, youdon't NEED anything beyond the rod in your hand, casting.Everything else is no more than just another tool...I collectthem, I enjoy using them. Others do not... Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 10:15:56 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Pricing Don Anderson writes:(stuff deleted)selling one of those rods is difficult. Like selling one of the kids. Got to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Don, do you find that your kids sell better in stores or when youtake the little nippers to shows??? :):) (sorry all, I couldn't help myself...guess I have beeninside too long. It is time to go fishing!!) Jared from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 10:58:28 1996 Subject: RE: trades I've been giving the rod trade idea some thought, how about this idea. We put together a list of people who want to participate in the swap.The list gets distributed to all participants. The rod that each makesgets mailed to the next person listed below you. Each person gets to try out the rod for a specified time, perhaps a month. At the end ofthe month you mail the rod you received to the person below you inthe list. Sort of a round robin format. Everyone gets to try out everyone else's rod. When you get your own rod back, everyone has seenit. We use this list as a way to critique each rod since I'm sure everyone would like to at least hear about the rods even if they don'tparticipate in the swap. Of course in all practicality you should expect that the rod you makecould get broken, lost in the mail, etc. I welcome anybody else's input. Darryl Hayashida ----------From: DIXALEE@aol.com[SMTP:DIXALEE@aol.com]Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 1996 10:56 PM Subject: Re:trades I would prefer not to put monetary value on the ropds to be exchanged.Ibelieve it would defeat the purpose and a newer builder has to workjust ashard to complete a rod as a more experienced builder. I would also notliketo see a 'standard' rod as it would tend to make everyone conform to anarbitrary ideal. We all have a favorite rod or taper. Perhaps when wehave aspare rod or an experiment that we would like a critique on we couldpost anote and see what offers develop. EXAMPLEI have a 7ft 3in 4wt 3pc rod that is a new taper idea. Would like totrade END EXAMPLE A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 11:09:28 1996 Subject: RE: Glues No glue FAQ, but if the archives are still available throughBruce Connors rodbuilding FAQ we went through a lot ofpostings on glue a few months back. Also, the PlaningForm had an article on glues a couple of issues ago.If you want my experiences with glues email me atdnh@chevron.com. I would be happy to tell you about the various glues I've tried. Darryl Hayashida ----------From: Thomas W. Ausfeld[SMTP:TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org]Sent: Thursday, April 18, 1996 2:22 AM Subject: Glues Is there a glue FAQ somewhere, or can someone give a general overview of types/advan/disadvan/uses etc??? thanksTom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 11:30:36 1996 Subject: RE: Glues Darryl,I guess what I'm looking for is types of glue, i.e. epoxy, acrylic, CA, wood glue, hide glues,etc, and the differences in the adhesive mechanisms and materials they are good for. Basically, how does it work type stuff? Thankstom No glue FAQ, but if the archives are still available throughBruce Connors rodbuilding FAQ we went through a lot ofpostings on glue a few months back. Also, the PlaningForm had an article on glues a couple of issues ago.If you want my experiences with glues email me atdnh@chevron.com. I would be happy to tell you about the various glues I've tried. Darryl HayashidaTom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 11:44:47 1996 Subject: RE: Glues Darryl,I guess what I'm looking for is types of glue, i.e. epoxy, acrylic, CA, wood glue, hide glues,etc, and the differences in the adhesive mechanisms and materials they are good for. Basically, how does it work type stuff? Thankstom I'm no expert on glues, but here is a repost of John Zimny's articlethat was posted to this list last January. Darryl Hayashida ***************************************************************************** ADHESIVES UPDATE Urea Formaldehyde glue came into use just prior to World War II in theaircraft industry. It was used to laminate wood structures and fabricsin air-frame applications. water resistance, and adequate open time, so that straightening can bedone before drying. UF's are available in a variety of formulationswhich possess flexibility in storage, working temperature, drying andopen times. There are at least two makers of urea formaldehyde resins and catalystsin the United States: Borden and American Cyanamid. Borden owns theCasco Resin trademark and American Cyanamid owns the "Urac" apellation.The following are addresses where each of these products may beobtained. Borden of Canada can provide dealers with "CR5H" . As far asI can determine, CR5H is L-100 resin. Casco Resin Custom-Pak Adhesives11047 Lambs LaneNewark Ohio 43055 URAC Nelson Paint CompanyP.O. Box 907Iron Mountain MI Mr. Kent Pitcher, of Custom-Pak Adhesives has been most generous onsharing his expertise in adhesives and catalysts for this article. Hehas formulated a mixture using Borden's L-100 resin. This mixture isfairly thin, yet it delivers more than enough resin to create a maximumstrength bond. Borden recommends a 40% delivery of resin to the joint is 65% resins, it is obvious that there is a considerable leeway in thecatalyst- resin mixture. Actually, S-120 and S-125(summer) catalysts canvary from 10% to 24% of a mixture and still deliver enough resin to thejoint to insure a maximum strength bond at the edge. This fact allowsthe user to vary both viscosity and reactivity. Up to 24% of mixture(catalyst), the cross linking process procedes faster as more catalystis used. At contrations of hardener of more than 24%, the reactionslows down because of a buffering effect. Here is a bench-mark mixturethat works. This can be varied according the needs of open time,temperature and viscosity.100 pts resin20 pts catalyst(S-100 or S-120)10 pts Water7.5 pts GF-10 wetting solutionYou may ask what GF-10 is. It is a wetting agent that makes the mixtureflow better.This already exists as a percentage of the liquid resin (especially URAC). However, up to 10% more is allowable. Five to eightpercent is considered optimal. Urea formaldehyde also comes in dry form. It has a much longer shelflife than the liquid form. But, in all other respects, it is the sameas the L-100 resin. It just lacks the water. Borden's version is calledCascamite. Urea formaldehyde mixtures cure completely in about four days attemperatures between 75 and 90 F. They can be heat cured very rapidly.I suggest you do some experimenting here. Both American Cyanamid andBorden will provide the user with information on heat curing. In anycase, I always allow my glued sections to rest a while after gluing.I'm not sure that one needs to do this- I do it. OTHER ADHESIVES Resorcinol is probably the best glue ever formulated for cane. It isthe strongest, most craze resistant, and most water-proof of the non-epoxy formulations. Its big draw-back is its purple color. But, thanksto Hoagy Carmichael, that problem can be mitigated. Check out page 94of the latest edition of "the Book". This should work on UF glues.Especially, if on wanted white URAC. Casein glues are protein based glues of great strength and pretty-goodwater resistance. Anyone who has tried to remove milk paint shouldknow. However, its craze resistance and shear resistance is not sogood. Its open time is short too. But, a lot of old timers used it andit worked. Hide glues are strong. As long as the joints are dry, no problem. Justthink about a 250 year old violin built for gut strings holding itselftogether ( strung now with steel) with hide glue. And, if you've everwitnessed the string players at an outdoor concert run like hell whenit starts to rain, you'll know why hide glue might not be so good forfly rods. Acid catalyzed PVA's are being used by at least one will-known rodmaker to very good effect. However, make sure that you get one thatcross-links at an 85% ,of more, rate. Without a high rate ofpolymerization, you may experience joint- creep ( movement under theclamps) or you might find that you had a relatively low waterresistance. The good thing about this class of adhesives is that, giventhe correct formulation, the bond is thermoplastic. The glue softenswhen heat is applied. Rod sections bonded with this class of gluesshould be easy to straighten. Much more so than other glues. Melamine bonds to slick surfaces- like other melimines. In otherrespects, it seems to be a good prospect for cane makers. I know thatthere is an old Leonard formula kicking around for a ureaformaldehyde/melamine mixture. I think I could exhume it if anyone wereinterested. And lastly, there are the Epoxy resins. They exist in such a plethoraof brands and formulations that it is nearly impossible to comment ofall but a few that might available to the rodmaker. Epoxy offers themaker great strength and absolute resistance to moisture. But, you hadbetter have your rod straight before you allow the resin to cure. Epoxyglued rods seem to have a greater resistance to heat straightening thanany other rod that I know. In fact, it is quite possible to applyenough heat while straightening to produce a catastrophic failure ofthe glued seams. All that being said, if you're good with your binderand can straighten before the glue cures, epoxy resins offer thestrongest and most durable bond available. Of late, Bill Fink has beenusing a blend of epoxies that respond well to heat straightening afterthe curing process has occurred. Bill has been using a 50/50 mix ofShell Epon 829 and Versimid V-40 to very good effect. I suggest thatyou make contact with Bill if you wish to pursue this possibility ENDJ. C. Zimny from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 12:02:54 1996 Subject: Garrison Math Most of you might recall the postings on slope and rod actionI started a couple of months ago. I've been continuing myramblings on graphing tapers and trying to quantify taperdesigns. I set out to find something that I started to calla "stiffness factor". This factor would have to take intoaccount the weight of the parts of the rod from the pointin question to the tip. The only things that is changeableis the diameter of the rod and the length. With this factorI could strategically place stiffer and weaker sections inthe rod to produce the action I wanted. Well...Some of you are probably beginning to think "This soundsfamiliar..." It is. I essentially came up with the Garrisonstress factor again. Maybe he knew what he was doing,and I didn't understand what he was telling me. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 12:04:04 1996 Subject: RE: Glues Darryl seez... No glue FAQ, but if the archives are still available throughBruce Connors rodbuilding FAQ we went through a lot ofpostings on glue a few months back. Also, the PlaningForm had an article on glues a couple of issues ago.If you want my experiences with glues email me atdnh@chevron.com. I would be happy to tell you about the various glues I've tried. Also in the archives, is an excellent article on glues thatfellow listmember John Zimny wrote for _The Planing Form_ Darryl is correct, there has been a lot of great gluediscussions in the past, that are tucked away in thearchives. Anyone want to volunteer to compile it allinto a FAQ???????? :-) The archives are still available via anonymous ftp atsirronald.wustl.edu (128.252.150.1) in the /pub/rm directory. They can also be accessed as Darryl said through BruceConners web page (http://www.cybercom.net/~bconner/rod.html) If anyone needs help with anonymous ftp, let me know... Mike BiondoRodmakers Listowner from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 12:15:39 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Pricing Jared, Didn't have to sell them. They just one day disappeared to university.Expect they will stay there till I run out of money. Don Don Anderson writes:(stuff deleted)selling one of those rods is difficult. Like selling one of the kids. Got to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Don, do you find that your kids sell better in stores or when youtake the little nippers to shows??? :):) (sorry all, I couldn't help myself...guess I have beeninside too long. It is time to go fishing!!) Jared from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 17:10:11 1996 Subject: re:Garrison 193 Mr. Thramer, I have only had experience with a few rods manufacturers and never evenseena Garrison. What makes Garrison's so dreadful? Regards, Don Concerning the question of line weight on a 193. I have personaly alwaysfound the Garrison tapers dreadful to use. Remember that that is apersonalviewpoint. The tapers cast but if I was forced to use them as designed Iwould have to go plastic. I preferred a DT3 . You might like a WF5. Thankgoodness my first rod was a Granger. A.J.Thramer I tried to get this off last night but it seems all the mail boxes were full. If you can cast then a 3 wt is perfect, If you cant cast then a 4 wt is ok. With a 5 wt you will not be able to keep much line in the air.Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 17:35:34 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? Terry ponders... :-) Mike,. Help me on this, I'm so out of touch with rodmaking it seems.Do you guyshonestly need a computer to to tell you what weight of line to put on afishing rod? It must be me because it seems so ludicrous, shurelynothingcould be easier than hanging different line on a rod and trying a fewcasts. Terry, I just see it as another FUN tool to play with. Sure, youcould put could just put on different lines until you came uponone that you think is best for the rod, but sometimes it's justPLAIN FUN to try something different. Then again, there is the situation where a person might not haveaccess to a complete arsenal of line weights. This tool doesa good job of putting one in the ballpark, if he has to go looking I for one, being a tyro at this, would have no idea. Bottom line? In my opinion, you're absolutely right Terry, youdon't NEED anything beyond the rod in your hand, casting.Everything else is no more than just another tool...I collectthem, I enjoy using them. Others do not... Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Mike, Computers are fun but the thread from last night was that the generatedlinewt for a Garrison 193 is a 5 wt. This is not in the ball park. What I think is happening is that you guys that work with computersbelievein them absolutely.If the laptop suggested a 5wt line on a 3 wt rod youwould blame your own casting ability, never questioning the computer. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 17:54:03 1996 Subject: simple tapers I have an old Wise Fishermans Encyclopedia which has a really goodsectionon bamboo rod making written I believe by Lew Stoner.The rod designchapteris simplicity itself. Just a sheet of graph paper with a standard .030 perfoot taper then you fool around with this straight taper, adding orreducing. Seems to simple eh? cant possibly work? Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 18:20:11 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Pricing To All, Have watched the rod pricing thread with interest. This same discussionwasundertaken @ the last Merritt B.C. get-together with no result other thanweall found out that the pricing was different for each builder. Seemed tobea mix of what the traffic would bear tempered by what the individualbelieved his/her output was worth and the geographic area he was sellinginto. The rods by amateur builders ranged from $ 800.00 CDN > $ 1200.00US.approx. Quite a spread. The highest was the pro's and from what I saw,therod was worth it. Further, a discussion topic was raised about a guild. This topic wasintroduced @ the Merritt meeting and was dropped as there appeared tobe noconsenus on who would do the judging to see if the rod maker's outputwas"Good enough" to be rated a journey man builder. I expect that thissubjectwill raise its head occasionally as new builders enter the scene. Have watched the "perfect rod" thread also. I build rods to suit myself,always seeking prefection but I expect I will never attain it. Certainlyselling one of those rods is difficult. Like selling one of the kids. Got todo it however to keep yourself in parts and cane. I, like others, have no abilities, if too much, lose a sale. You shouldn't comparing yourself tothe pro's. As someone said, they got expenses. The amateur does too butprotects his wife from reality by not explaing them clearly even tohimself. Terry suggests that we wait for the plastic boys to grow up and switchtocane. I hope they don't. Watch them guys cast like a windshield wiper onhigh just plain tires me out. Don't know if a wood product could keep uptoall that twitching and if it tried, the failure rate would likely be high.Also, graphite appeals to the type "A" personaility, where cane isdefinitely a type "B" material. Cane appeals to a certain market segementthat understands what a fishing rod is and should be and is prepared topaythe price. Regards, Don A Have faith Don, We all get older and wiser, do you think all these young punks walkingaround with their baseball caps on back to front will always dress likethat? I'd hate to think what I would look like now in a pair of bell bottomsand beads. I think the flyfishermen will also grow up and decide their skills deservesomething better.I think its just a matter of time.Just got to hope thatsome super new composite does not come along in the meantime. Regards, Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 19:52:42 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? I'm just an innocent observer her but it seems as if the spirit of this thread has broken down to banter.. I think Garrison.. whomever.. would have loved to have had a computer available.. I guess Wayne and I are the only ones who remember SLIDRULER ..How about pen and paper.. I hope no-one is proposing that we just guess at tapers and stress factors. I and others are trying to make the point that computers can be a better tool.. I don't even believe the code I write myself.. Feel is the ultimate but where do you start..Jerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 20:23:35 1996 Subject: Wow The last couple of messages i've sent have done the proper echo and then this Subject: Delivery report for message to [104261,233] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 21:02:02 -0400 From: CompuServe_Mail Jerry Foster Message "Re: Math formula?", sent at 20:45 EDT on 18-Apr-96, could not bedelivered to [104261,233] at 21:02 EDT on 18-Apr-96 because the recipientmailbox is full. ?? I do have a cumpuserve account but i havn't accessed it in 2 months.. is this a listserver thing Jerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 20:29:27 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? In a message dated 96-04-18 02:04:59 EDT, you write: Help me on this, I'm so out of touch with rodmaking it seems.Do you guyshonestly need a computer to to tell you what weight of line to put on afishing rod? It must be me because it seems so ludicrous, shurely nothingcould be easier than hanging different line on a rod and trying a fewcasts. I think the question is how to determine a rod's line requirement when allyou have in hand is the taper on paper. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 20:29:47 1996 Subject: Re: New guy on the block In a message dated 96-04-18 02:01:08 EDT, you write: However, what I'm planning now is a little more ambitious. I've recentlycome into possession of what I believe to be the butt section of a H-I7'9'' Token queen. I've also come up with a collection of miscellaneousparts from other rods. I plan to build a 7' three piece from the parts.My problem is this: I've never worked with metal ferrules(sp). I believe I'll need to fit themto all three sections of the rod. The books I've read leave something to be desired on this point. Any suggestion? Terry Kirkpatrick Hi Terry:What you propose is to accomplish approx the last one-third of what therestof us do when we build a bamboo rod from scratch. Jump right in, thewatersfine - seems a reasonable way to get started. I seriously suggest youobtainsome of the literature about rod building; see list below. You will need few of the basic tools from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 21:06:45 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? I'm just an innocent observer her but it seems as if the spirit of this thread has broken down to banter.. I think Garrison.. whomever.. would have loved to have had a computer available.. I guess Wayne and I are the only ones who remember SLIDRULER ..How about pen and paper.. I hope no-one is proposing that we just guess at tapers and stress factors. I and others are trying to make the point that computers can be a better tool.. I don't even believe the code I write myself.. Feel is the ultimate but where do you start..Jerry Jerry,All the classic rodmakers guessed at tapers, what's wrong with that.Garrison was an amature rodmaker,that is all.Very few of us has actuallyseen a garrison made rod.Do you think that Payne worried about stressfactors? O.K if Garrison's tapers were so outstanding compared toprofessional rodmakers of that era then perhaps I would listen. Almost toaman all the senior fly fishermen that fish and collect bamboo rods preferrods with more 'wood in them'. Garrison tapers are very difficult to cast, Ive been to a couple ofrodbuilders gatherings down in P.A. and everyone turned up with theirGarrison type tapers nobody could cast them, just kidding each other howgood they were. I have only seen one guy that could cast a Garrison tapersand that was at a show in Toronto, he could lay out a line with absolutelyno effort.They can be cast but not by the average caster. Was the Stradivarius violin built with a computer? they are trying toduplicate it, no luck yet. When you lads with the laptops have built built a rod that is so good thenI'll listen but for now I'll just chuckle.regards,Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 21:12:07 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? In a message dated 96-04-18 02:04:59 EDT, you write: Help me on this, I'm so out of touch with rodmaking it seems.Do you guyshonestly need a computer to to tell you what weight of line to put on afishing rod? It must be me because it seems so ludicrous, shurelynothingcould be easier than hanging different line on a rod and trying a fewcasts. I think the question is how to determine a rod's line requirement when allyou have in hand is the taper on paper. Best Regards,Richard Tyree Dick,It is Obviously not with what the Nintendo gang is using. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 18 21:36:03 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings + WET bamboo In a message dated 96-04-17 01:44:11 EDT, you write: My experiece is that if you warm a strip of bamboo that contains toomuchmoisture all you are doing is chasing out the water from that area.Youstraighten it and put it aside and the moisture will wick back and thekinkwill re-appear. T.Ackland Hello Terence: Glad to see you on the list - you really liven things up. With respect toyour comments, above, I have no quarrel with them. The point is, though,that the procedure does work. Have done two complete rods + the two tipsmentioned, and preceived no real difference after initial straightening.However, my experience as a rod builder is a bit limited, and very limitedat wet straightening. You also wrote: It seems a tough market. We have got to get to these graphite flyfishermen and convert them, then we will have all the work we canhandle. Len Codella said to me once,"the bamboo rod market is this big", holdinghishands about 1 foot apart,"never any bigger never any smaller". I personally think that we are in a position right now to to expand on thatmarket, nothing has come along since graphite and that has been for 20yearsits going to take a strategy. What do you think of the idea of an association of some sort with dues? Thedues could be used for promoting bamboo such as spreads or articles in theffmags - or whatever. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 06:45:48 1996 Subject: New Guy on Block In response to Terry Kirkpatrick's questions I sent what was anincompletemsg., as follows: ""Hi Terry:What you propose is to accomplish approx the last one-third of what therestof us do when we build a bamboo rod from scratch. Jump right in, thewatersfine - seems a reasonable way to get started. I seriously suggest youobtainsome of the literature about rod building; see list below. You will need few of the basic tools"" Now to complete it. You will need a few of the basic tools as determined from reading thebooks.Ferrule instellation can be done by judicious use of a file so a lathe isnot essential. Simply file a few strokes on a corner, then the samenumberon the next and so on. Begin trying the ferrule early on and there should beno problem with seriously undersizing the bamboo. This has workedsatisfactorily for me on hex and 5-sided sections. A lot of us useDevcon's2-Ton Epoxy for ferrule adhesive with good results. "whole hog" and build one from scratch. As mentioned, jump right in. Justone more suggestion, should you decide to get in all the way, startbuildingand gather your tools and supplies as you go. A lot of time can be wastedjust getting ready - I know from personal experience. One service this list can provide is all the advice you ever might wantgetting started and building. Please let us hear any and all of yourquestions. Best Regards,Richard Tyree 1. "The Planing Form" ; Ron Barch at (616-945-2329) A newsletter forBBObuilders.2. "A Masters Guide...Garrison" by Carmichael; try Ron Barch at thePlaning Form 3. "Handcrafting BBO Flyrods" by Wayne Cattanach; try The Anglers Art(new and used books about fly fishing and related ) 800-848-10204. "How To Make Bamboo Fly Rods" by Barnes try Anglers Art (AA, fromnow on)5. "The Bamboo Rod and How to Build It" by Kreider, 1950s republshdbook- from AA6. "Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook" by Sinclair from AA7. "The Wise Fisherman Encyclopedia" McClane Find in used book stores,and atantique tackle meets (NFLCC) or AA can prob find a cy for you 8. "McClane's Standard Fishing Encyclopedia" McClane (naturally) sameas7. forsource9. Thats all I haveYou may have some of these. Highly recommend you subscribe to ThePlaningForm ifyou havn't. Also, just got a catalog from AA and they show the Garrisonbook avail butlimited and at $80 10. Oh yes, jut thought of Herter's book or books on bamboo rod making. AAfound acy for me at $80. Had some neat casting rod tapers from yesteryear so Iconsidered itworth the money.11. Also there is a book by Ernest Schwiebert that is full of bamboo loreof the "oldmasteres" and their rods and ways. It was a two-book offering "Trout",with"TroutTwo- Tackle" being the one. No idea where to find it, but AA can prob findacy for you. ISBN: 0-525-48107-912. One other about the old masters is Martin Keane's classic on classiccane called, you guessed it, "Classic Rods and Rod Makers" Call MartyKeane(he prefers Marty) at 413-229-7988. You might also want to subscribe tohisquarterly "Classic Rods and Tackle" catalog. 13. New guy on block is "fundamentals of Bamboo Building a Bamboo FlyRod"byGeorge Maurer and Bernard Elser. Can get from George @ SweetwaterRods, 610-683-6759 or at The Evening Hatch (most days) 717-443-0772. ProbAA, also14. Another excellent source of how-to-do-it is the 3-hr video by WayneCattanach recently out and avail thru AA. The above list is for info only and not meant to push anybody's product. :-) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 09:16:06 1996 Subject: Re: Wow Jerry queries (hey, I'm a poet! :-) about the compuserve errormessages... The last couple of messages i've sent have done the proper echo and then this Subject: Delivery report for message to [104261,233] Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 21:02:02 -0400 From: CompuServe_Mail Jerry Foster Message "Re: Math formula?", sent at 20:45 EDT on 18-Apr-96, could notbedelivered to [104261,233] at 21:02 EDT on 18-Apr-96 because therecipientmailbox is full. Sorry about these messages, you aren't the only one getting themJerry. Anyone who submits a post is getting this back from compuserve. Seems as one of listmembers has let their mailbox fill up and compuserve will no longer deliver messages to it, and then sendsnotification of such back to the sender. I'll let this continue for a short time more, (thinking perhaps theowner of the mailbox is on vacation, or such) and if it doesn't stopI be forced to remove the offending listmember. Just a reminder to everyone else...if you plan to be away from email mail until you reset back to MAIL. To set you Rodmakers Subscription to NOMAIL: In the body of the message: SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE When you are ready to start receiving mail again, send anothermessage to the LISTPROC address with the body of the message to read: SET RODMAKERS MAIL ACK If you would like more information on customizing your subscription,again send mail to the LISTPROC address. In the body of the message: HELP The LISTPROC will send you a complete help file. If you have any problems or question, just let me know... Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 10:41:51 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? Terry seez... Computers are fun but the thread from last night was that the generatedlinewt for a Garrison 193 is a 5 wt. This is not in the ball park. Sorry for the confusion Terry. I didn't remember anyone sayingthey actually tried the program and came up with a 5wght. However, just for grins, I did feed Garrison's 193 through Wayne'sprogram. And sure enough, the program said a 3wght! Good pickon your part Terry!!! Terry, it would be real helpful to us 'laptop gang' if there isanything you could add to the thread on how you arrived at youconclusion - a 3wght. if your a good caster, a 4wght if you areso-so caster, etc. You mentioned that you have cast the Garrison tapers. It wouldbe very helpful and quite constructive to the thread if you coulddescribe somewhat the feel you were speaking of. I understand itmight be pretty tough to put into words, but I'm sure it would abig help to a lot of use newer folks. Thanks... Mike BiondoSt. Louis, MO from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 10:43:14 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings + WET bamboo Looks like the LISTPROC decided to send another message tothe errors folder instead of the list. Sorry if this is a duplicate... Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= from TKirkpat@clw.unisysgsg.com Fri Apr 19 10:09:28 1996From: "Kirkpatrick, Terry @ CLW" Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings + WET bamboo I personally think that we are in a position right now to to expand on thatmarket, nothing has come along since graphite and that has been for 20 yearsits going to take a strategy. What do you think of the idea of an association of some sort with dues? Thedues could be used for promoting bamboo such as spreads or articles in the ffmags - or whatever.Richard Tyree The biggest boon to Bamboo was when Gerlic(sp) said he liked to fishbamboo in his column in Fly Rod and Reel.A lot of readers accused him of being an elitist. Bamboo most fishers A:Too expensive to be accessible to the common fisherman.B. Old fashioned. You could probably attack problem B with articles and adds, but problem A will plague you. It's interesting -- fiberglass, which is much closer to bamboo in action (later models that is) doesn't even exist, any more, even though blanks would be cheep to make. Apparently, part of the appeal of Bamboo is it's cost. The fact that It's NOT accessible to everyone???? Terry Kirkpatrickon Old Tampa Bay.Safety Harbor, Fl. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 14:26:17 1996 Subject: Taper design I would offer the argument that many maker had a distinct method ofdesigning rod tapers and that it wasn't just by seat of pant guess. Inlooking at old photos and reading the history of several companies theyuseda deflection board using several weights suspended from the tip of therod. from this the made educated changes to a rod. This is what could betermeddynamic investigation.All Mr Garrisons math was a static version of the same type ofinvestigation. Nothing new just a different spin of what had been done foryears. It is just that he chose to use a pencil and math in altering changesinstead of a deflection board.Today the tool of choice for some is the computer. NOT that thecomputercan do the design but it can assist a knowledgable maker in looking atdifferent rod design ideas. Without a true understanding of how a rodfunctions a person is limited to what they can do. But it is fairly easy andreliable to alter line weights and mimic actions which starts thequestioningprocess which will lead to understanding.Perhaps a fair statement would be that a computer is just like a handplane that it is simply a tool - the results of both depend upon the skill ofthe user. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 14:28:26 1996 Subject: Loaner Program? fish with. The idea is to narrow down the type and length of rod that theymight be interested in buying. These loaners were rods that I had made indeveloping rod actions and may not truely represent the current level ofquality.It would be hard for me to take part in a rod swap unless you are up toat least a two year wait. But if there are members that would like tosamplerod actions and are unable to make TTBBBQ II it could possibly be workedout.I have loaned out rod like this for about 7 years and I currently have 5rods somewhere out there. In the 7 years I have never had a rod damaged orcome up missing. I should worn you that my rods are insured by BrunoProtection and that he has a thursday special on broken knee caps. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 16:25:25 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? I'm just an innocent observer her but it seems as if the spirit of thisthread has broken down to banter.. I think Garrison.. whomever.. wouldhave loved to have had a computer available.. I guess Wayne and I arethe only ones who remember SLIDRULER ..How about pen and paper.. I hopeno-one is proposing that we just guess at tapers and stress factors. Iand others are trying to make the point that computers can be a bettertool.. I don't even believe the code I write myself.. Feel is theultimate but where do you start..Jerry Jerry, you ain't the only one. Ive been lurking here for a couple weekswatching the comments on this subject. I grew up learning log tables, thena slide rule (I still have it), moved to IBM giant computers and on toApple (interger) and Macintosh. Now I have to say that those who don'tappreciate what can be done with some good code, just havent arrived yet.Iguess they are still out in the creek while you code worrieors (I meant thespelling) are improving their sport/hobby. That's gratitude for ya. You canbe a shadetree and put together a rod without knowing much about itsproperties until you are finished and hope you can make a dupilcate justlike it. There, I've had my say now! Bob lukn4fish and gazing at the stars----------Bob MaddenSan Jose, Ca madden@aimnet.commadden@svpal.orglipetska@aol.com Terry seez... Computers are fun but the thread from last night was that the generatedlinewt for a Garrison 193 is a 5 wt. This is not in the ball park. Sorry for the confusion Terry. I didn't remember anyone sayingthey actually tried the program and came up with a 5wght. However, just for grins, I did feed Garrison's 193 through Wayne'sprogram. And sure enough, the program said a 3wght! Good pickon your part Terry!!! Terry, it would be real helpful to us 'laptop gang' if there isanything you could add to the thread on how you arrived at youconclusion - a 3wght. if your a good caster, a 4wght if you areso-so caster, etc. You mentioned that you have cast the Garrison tapers. It wouldbe very helpful and quite constructive to the thread if you coulddescribe somewhat the feel you were speaking of. I understand itmight be pretty tough to put into words, but I'm sure it would abig help to a lot of use newer folks. Thanks... Mike BiondoSt. Louis, MO Mike, you answered a guys question about what weight of line a a Garrison 193should take and I've just re-read the reply again and you in fact did notmention a garrison taper, I,m very sorry. But to be honest you did notanswer the guys question, he wanted the line weight for a Garrison rod notaZimny.You were plugging a computer programme. The guy may not have acomputer,some people can get by without them, it sounds unbelievable I know. Garrison rods are too loose from the ferrule down (2 piece ) if you get anylength of line in the air it is difficult to keep it up. They are Ok forshort casts. Add some extra bamboo in the butt section, you feel no extraweight because it is in the hand. It is not just me that finds Garrisontapers a little difficult.What made you and all the computer boys pick on Garrison tapers to buildyour programmes around , why not Leonard, Payne , Dickerson or any of thegreat professional rod makers. Why pick on an amateur? Do you feel thathistapers are the best,if so the tapers he designed are all documented andavailable to all, or do you just verify the tapers on a computer? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 18:26:46 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? Terry seez... Computers are fun but the thread from last night was that the generatedlinewt for a Garrison 193 is a 5 wt. This is not in the ball park. Sorry for the confusion Terry. I didn't remember anyone sayingthey actually tried the program and came up with a 5wght. However, just for grins, I did feed Garrison's 193 through Wayne'sprogram. And sure enough, the program said a 3wght! Good pickon your part Terry!!! Terry, it would be real helpful to us 'laptop gang' if there isanything you could add to the thread on how you arrived at youconclusion - a 3wght. if your a good caster, a 4wght if you areso-so caster, etc. You mentioned that you have cast the Garrison tapers. It wouldbe very helpful and quite constructive to the thread if you coulddescribe somewhat the feel you were speaking of. I understand itmight be pretty tough to put into words, but I'm sure it would abig help to a lot of use newer folks. Thanks... Mike BiondoSt. Louis, MO Mike, you answered a guys question about what weight of line a a Garrison 193should take and I've just re-read the reply again and you in fact did notmention a garrison taper, I,m very sorry. But to be honest you did notanswer the guys question, he wanted the line weight for a Garrison rod notaZimny.You were plugging a computer programme. The guy may not have acomputer,some people can get by without them, it sounds unbelievable I know. Garrison rods are too loose from the ferrule down (2 piece ) if you get anylength of line in the air it is difficult to keep it up. They are Ok forshort casts. Add some extra bamboo in the butt section, you feel no extraweight because it is in the hand. It is not just me that finds Garrisontapers a little difficult.What made you and all the computer boys pick on Garrison tapers to buildyour programmes around , why not Leonard, Payne , Dickerson or any of thegreat professional rod makers. Why pick on an amateur? Do you feel thathistapers are the best,if so the tapers he designed are all documented andavailable to all, or do you just verify the tapers on a computer? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 19:05:19 1996 Subject: Heddon Thorobred #14 Can anyone provide me with the proper thread color and wrap design of the Heddon Thorobred #14. If this is an inappropriate question for this listserv let me know and I'll give myself 10 lashes with a 3 weight tip section. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 19:16:25 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings + WET bamboo This is a follow-up concerning coatings tests reported by me from DickSchiller of the Louisville, KY area. The report concerns effectiveness ofmoisture exclusion, and is reprinted below (I), and then questions by ReedCurry, printed thereafter (II), and then, Finally, the answeres (III),followed by what many of you might call Abnormal Ramblings by me (IV). Youmight want to take a look at IV even if not interested in the others. (I) 1. Melted parrafin 95% effective2. Two part Epoxy 91% (3coats) 54% (1coat)3. Two part polyurethane gloss varnish 66% (3coat) 0 (Yes zero, 1 coat) (apparently it just fills pores and penetrates at only one coat)4. Epoxy gloss varnish 50% (3 coat) 3% (1 coat)5. Orange shellac 46% (3coat) 2% (1 coat) water can leave marks onshellac6. Polyurethane varnish and Alkyd satin varnish 41% (3coat) 8% (1 coat)7. Phenolic Tung floor sealer -1% (yes, it absorbs water, one coat) 35% 3 coats8. Soya alkyd phenolic/tung gloss spar varnish 30% (3coats) 0 (one coat)9. Acrylic gloss latex varnish 10% (3coats) -1% (1coat)10. Tung oil 2% (3coats) -1% (1 coat)11. Linseed oil 0% (3coats) -5 (1coat) (yes it really absorbs water sinceit penetrates and forms no coat in pores. It does not polymerize well.12. Furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0% no matter how may coats! (II) Great stuff. But I have a few questions: 1/ Was the testing conducted by placing the finsh on a semi-permeable membrane (paper) between two enclosed spaces ofdiffering humidity and heat? If it was say 90% humidity on one side and 5% onthe other or if the test was conducted for 40 hours... Beats me. Will see if Dick Schiller will expound on the tests from whichcame the report. However, he is out of pocket for awhile, but willinquirewhen we next communicate if he will do so. 2/ How many cane rod owners will take their beloved rod to the stream without a coat of Butchers wax on it? This seals not only from water vapor but also from DEET and other nasties. Tell us about Butchers wax - I've no experience w/it. (III) Info from Dick Schiller: The report was by Wm Feist and Gary Peterson of The Forrest ProductsLab andfound in the May, 1987 issue of Fine WoodWorking. In the test, twopieces ofclear Pondarosa (sp?) pine were used. Both pieces were subjected to 30%relative humidity @ 80d F until saturated. One piece was then coatedwiththe test material (varnish, parafin, etc.). Both pieces then subjected to90% rh @ 80d F and weighed at 1, 7, and 14 days. The relative weightgainsof the the unprotected/protected pieces were used to determine themoistureexcluding effectiveness of the protective coating. Thats all I know atthispoint. (IV) The info about Payne's use of water to straighten glued-up sections isquiteinteresting. John Bokstrom has an article in the Mar/Apr 96 issue of ThePlaning Form on how to soak bamboo strips for straightening purposes. Isawhis presentation of same at the 1994 Corbit Lake, Canada gathering andcanrelate very good success. Briefly, The split strips are soaked in waterapprox 24 hrs, then straightened as usual. The wet bamboo is morepliableand straightens much easier with less heat. The very moist bamboo takesonheat much faster, and the surface evaporation during heat applicationdoesnot allow the surface to reach temps commonly encountered, and muchlesscharing occurs (imho). Folks, no kidding, it works. Ever notice how apestynode gets more and more difficult to straighten if you have to go back toita couple of times? I think it is because it gets dryer and dryer. Incompleting the strips, they dry out and the water poses no additionalchallenges. In fact, it is not further noticed. I did a test. Had to build two tips for a classic rod butt section and didone soak and the other no-soak. The guled up sections with male ferrulesinstalled and ready for varnish were weighed on a gram scale and werew/i onegram (1/28 th oz.) of one another. Otherwise, could tell no difference,andin fact did not know which was which after binding. A couple of points: (1.) Though the idea of introducing moisture tobamboomay seem horrible, I harken back to Intro to Chem from past days. Irememberthat woody materials take on and give off intercellular moisture quiteeasily. Its the moisture inside the cells that kiln drying deals with.During planing, surface area to mass is increased significantly so normaldrying can take place at an increasing rate. (2.) Intracellular moisture is(imho) what flaming and oven curing deals with, and does so long aftermostof the between-the-cells moisture has been driven off. Would enjoy comments on this, as I am sure the jury is still out withmany ofyou. Two very neat swing-arm gram/ounce scales are sold by:Highland Hardware - (800)-241-6748 One scaled 0 to 1.75 oz./100 g, theotherto 35 oz/1000 g. Covers most rods and rod sections. The Planing Form - For those of you who may not be aware of it, it is abamboo rodmaker's newsletter and very helpful. PO Box 365, Hastings,MI49058. I think it is $ 15 / yr and well worth it. Richard Tyree A few months ago I had a rod returned to me that had "gone soft" when Iopened the tube the nickle silver had turned brown and soft was anunderstatement I think you could have tied it in a knot. It was also verybadly twisted and kinked, I had never seen anything like it. I certainlynever shipped it like that.I began to inspect the tube and when I turned it over the polished laqueredcap was deeply corroded and black, the rod must have been stored in adampleaking basement, I called the owner and said I would replace the rod butthey must be looked after. The owner lived in Ohio , is this where they hadthe floods? I,m just mentioning this after reading the thread about water straighting,Ibelieve any any change in the moisture content from when a rod was builteither up or down spells trouble. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 21:38:38 1996 Subject: Re: Heddon Thorobred #14 Chris,According to Mike Sinclair's Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook, theHeddonThorobred #14 uses Red #10 wraps with no trim wraps. Hope this helps. Len Gorney lsgorney@rs01.kings.eduhttp://www.kings.edu/~lsgorney/index.htm from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 22:02:12 1996 Subject: Re: Glue Removal Okay, enough of design esoterics and onto a hands-on question. :-) I finished gluing up my first rod, and now I'm looking at thisconglomeration of rod, glue and binding thread. What is use outthere for gettin' down to a nice clean piece of wood!!? I've read of some filing, some sanding, others scraping, and someuse a combination of the three. I sure would appreciate any wordsof wisdom, guideance, or just plain ol' constructive bantering on themerits of one verses the other. Thanks... Mike - still trying to get the glue off his hands - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Mike,What you should have done just after gluing up was to have given thewrappedblank a good wipe down with a wet rag, presuming you did not use epoxy,thenwipe it with a dry rag. This way the cord comes off easy adnd its just asanding but you will have to file it off. Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 19 22:24:50 1996 Subject: Re: Glue Removal I have found sandpaper to be sufficient to remove even heavy epoxy overstring. It is essential to use it wrapped around a wooden sanding block oryour nice hex shape will be ruined in minutes. Go slow and be patient. Iagree with Wayne's book that scrapers leave chatter marks, so sandpaperisthe medium of choice. A file would scare me here, though I scare easily atthis point in the rod making process. (IMHO) Barry Rhodesbrhodes@atl.mindspring.com At 04:37 PM 4/19/96 CDT, you wrote:Okay, enough of design esoterics and onto a hands-on question. :-) I finished gluing up my first rod, and now I'm looking at thisconglomeration of rod, glue and binding thread. What is use outthere for gettin' down to a nice clean piece of wood!!? I've read of some filing, some sanding, others scraping, and someuse a combination of the three. I sure would appreciate any wordsof wisdom, guideance, or just plain ol' constructive bantering on themerits of one verses the other. Thanks... Mike - still trying to get the glue off his hands - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 08:43:40 1996 Subject: Re: Glue Removal Mike First you should have followed my tip of using White Vinegar onuncurredresins - it works like a champ in seconds. Next time you will know better. I use a mill bastard file to get rid of the "bulk" of epoxy and string -I donot try to remove any cane with it. Usually I can still see my pencil markson the surface. I use a scraper now to remove the enamel. This is easy ifyou have a sharp scraper. Then I smooth the result with 400 gritsandpaper toremove any chatter marks. You get sharper corners if you don't sand too much. When I started Iused tothe file then sand the rest - the corners never turned out as sharp as Iwanted. I am getting good results this way. For tips on using a scrapper-there was an article in a back issue of the Planing Form by TomSmithwick. I have a lot of woodworking experience so I was comfortable withthe scraper.You may try it on scrap piece or butt section that would be be either cutoffor hidden unden the grip. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 09:10:50 1996 Subject: Weight of rods A question for the list:Is the static weight of fly rods really that important? I ask this question because for nearly 90 years there has been a great brouhaha about rod weight. A modern graphite rod maker reached theone ounce mark a few years ago. (Leonard was producing one ounce cane rods60 years before, big deal.) But how significant is that in terms of delicacy of presentation and ease of use? I have found that light graphite rods require more effort in casting than a cane (or fiberglass) rod weighing a fewounces more. The static weight tells us nothing, as well, about the balance of the rod in casting; that is when you really feel the weight.Casting style is significant, as well. The modern casting style of raising the whole arm and extending, back and forward, is designed to overcome the stiffness of modern rods. (Both cane and graphite.) Imaginehow much more energy is required to fling your arm about in this manner. Andit doesn't look comfortable. So you shave two ounces off the weight of the rod, and then wave an 8 lb.(?) arm above your head.As a test yesterday while fishing from the shore of a small pond, with a six foot grassy bank behind me, I tried both techniques. My rod wasa 10' 5wt. weighing approx. 5 oz. The line was an SA Air Cel Supreme F5dt.The leader was 9', 5x, the fly, a #14 Cooper Bug. Casting in my normalmisguided manner, but consciously keeping my elbow tight to my side and my thumbon the side of the grip, I was able to cast 55' (measured) and still have the line pull from the reel slightly. Then I put my thumb on top, and extended my arm in casting, as I've been trying to do for the past year. Pile cast, wavy line, etc. The rod did not want to be forced. (I have other, more Western style cane rods that will accept this casting style.) The point is that it took considerably more energy to do less; hence I assume that Iwas moving a greater mass.So, what's weight got to do with it?Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 09:52:15 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings + WET bamboo In a message dated 96-04-20 00:55:38 EDT, you write: I'm just mentioning this after reading the thread about water straighting,Ibelieve any any change in the moisture content from when a rod wasbuilteither up or down spells trouble. Terry Ackland Hello Terry:You must have a heart of gold to have replaced the guy's rod. Sounds likehemust have used it as a tomato stake. Your statement posted above is probably the true essence of it all. If so,then a bit of new thinking is in order. Since no finish is totallyimpervious to moisture (unless your experiments prove otherwise), itsuggestsmost of the late work should be done with the bamboo as close to anaverageambient humidity as is reasonable. That is, once the glue up andstraightening are accoumplished and before finishing, the piece should beallowed to come up to or down to an ambient humidity. Up in the case ofheatcure adhesives, and down in the case of water based. Maybe the old boyswholet their rods cure out for several months after glue up were right. Ofcourse this might require further, minor straightening sessionsthroughoutthe process. But then, I would have to gain a great deal of patience towaitthat long. Reference you finishing experiments - any thing to pass on? Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 09:52:21 1996 Subject: Re: Marketing In a message dated 96-04-20 01:21:24 EDT, you write: When i was interested in learning to flyfish, I rented several movies. Flycasting w/ Doug Swisher, a Gary Borger movie, and I don't remember the others, but I do remember all of them saying something about graphite being the best, not one mention of bamboo, let alone its advantages. So, me being an ignorant, I assumed they were right. (I have now seen the error of my ways, of course.) But this may be an area were it may be worth pursuing. Sponser one of these movies and subtly mention how great bamboo is. Odds are, the first rod of the viewer will still be graphite because of cost, but that naggingthought of bamboo being great will give them something to work up to. Oh well back to work,Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Hello Tom:Sounds like a terrific idea. Only lets take it one step further. If we hada loose association that could pool some money, I'll bet a great videocentered around bamboo and it's good points could be put together and soldata reasonable price. Then a bit of advertising in whatever form to get itsold. A table at the Southfield, MI FF Expo is just one example. Thoughts,anyone? Regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 12:59:55 1996 Subject: Re: Weight of rods Reed Good point on weight "The scared word". Bill Phillips in his book"The TroutStream and Rod" says: "Without question, this lightness concept was whatreally spoiled the rod design parameters. Not too many good rods weredeveloped, irrespective of the materials, because they preserved thenotion offlexibility and light weight. Even today, the rod weight is given though itwere THE measure of the action to be expected." .... and he goes on. Remember Einstein theory E=MC2 still applies and M = mass (weight). Also your comment about elbow against side brings up another point. Peoplewho cast Garrison and have trouble are probably using a "modern" castingstyle, rather than a classic one. Remember, last year at Grayling, we hadanumber of rods and lines. People had to marry up to the casting styledemanded by the original designer, rhythm, and type of line to getexpectedperformance. People expect too much when they try a rod out of theoriginalcontext of the design. We had a Garrison taper that really demanded thatelbow be tight and rod straight up, once done it was a dream to cast. Sorryno Lefty Kreh styles here. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 13:13:33 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? In a message dated 96-04-20 01:04:17 EDT, you write: What made you and all the computer boys pick on Garrison tapers to buildyour programmes around , why not Leonard, Payne , Dickerson or any ofthegreat professional rod makers. Why pick on an amateur? Do you feel thathistapers are the best,if so the tapers he designed are all documented andavailable to all, or do you just verify the tapers on a computer? I must have missed something here. The computer program I wrote willand haslooked at any makers tapers. To date I examined perhaps 180 rod tapers.WhatI'm looking for are little details (like the 'hinges' discussed earlier).Once I have the detail I like it can then be reproduced or blended withotherdetails to create what ever length or line weight you want with thosecharacteristics. In perspective the Garrison tapers are very simple incomparison with the likes of Leonards and others. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 13:45:28 1996 Subject: Re: Marketing Gee! This all seems like a dream I must of had. Let's see this morning Iwas in the basement with the Panasonic 455 and then next winter I canseethis road - it's Evergreen so the Southfield Civic Center must be justahead.And it's becoming clearer - it's - it's Washington, DC and over there isSomerset, NJ.This last winter "Winston Waters" was released and a fair share of itwas focused at their bamboo rod production fearturing Glen Bracket - DougatClassic Cane also has a promotional video available as well. I see aproblemin a group producing a promotion (conflict ). But any advertising advancesthe cause although the most benefit is recieved by the producer. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 14:51:05 1996 Subject: Re: Weight of rods A question for the list:Is the static weight of fly rods really that important?Reed,If you want to deal with factors that can be measured rather thansubjective things that you can feel, (and who but an engineer would wanttolook at the world that way?) here is one answer. One function of a rod (and its relative importance may be over rated sincethe added velocity is about 20% of the total velocity ) is to transfer thespring energy in the loaded rod into additional line velocity as it unloadsat the end of the cast. This additional velocity is proportional to howfast the rod can unbend which in turn is proportional to what is called thenatural frequency of vibration of the rod. The solution to the real dynamics of this problem is surprisingly complexwhen damping effects such a air resistance on the line and rod areincluded, and defies a solution that can be expressed as a simple equationyou could plug into a spread sheet. I have read many papers on the subjectand must confess that I cannot understand the details of how the authors(usually professors with doctorate degrees in applied mechanics) arrive attheir numerical solutions. However, in its most basic form the unbending of the rod is similar to theoscillations of a mass on a spring. For a uniform cross section rod thisproblem does have a closed form solution that shows the frequency ofoscillation is proportional to the square root of (EI/m) divided by thesquare of the length of the rod. For the factors in the square root term:E is the effective Young's modulus of the materialI depends on the shape and area of the cross sectionm is the mass of the rod which is proportional to its weight from all of this you can see that to make a rod of a given length with ahigh natural frequency of oscillation you would make it with1. A high modulus material2. Arrive at a cross section that would have large area moment ofinertia.In a circular rod the area moment of inertial varies as the fourthpowerof the radius so increasing the diameter by two has the same effect asincreasing the modulus by a factor of 16.3. Use a light weight material and use a cross section with the minimumamount of material. A thin-wall, hollow rod would be better than asolidrod for example. So strictly from the standpoint of getting the maximum amount of linevelocity and hence ultimate distance in a cast an engineer would make along rod having a large diameter (consistent with some tradeoffs on itsair drag characteristics) using a high modulus material, and an extremelythin wall thickness. Note that even though making the rod longer wouldlower its natural frequency it would increase the %80 of the line velocitythat comes from the swing of the rod. Up to a point this tradeoff wouldfavor a longer rod. All things considered such a rod might give you a marginal increase indistance, but would not cast at shorter distances worth a lick, andprobably would shatter with the first hook ding. That is why engineersarenot designing rods for the top companies. Who wants to get more distanceout of rod anyway? As a practical matter of how important weight and the natural frequency arod are, try this experiment sometime. Tape on a 1/2 oz. sinker to the tipof your rod. This will increase its weight slightly but will slow down itsnatural frequency a great deal. Let us know what you think of thedifference. Gordon Judd There are advantages to being self-taught;Fullerton, CA the quality of instruction is not one ofjudd@cosmoslink.net them. -Ted Leeson- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 18:02:21 1996 Subject: Re: Weight of rods Gordon wrote:If you want to deal with factors that can be measured rather thansubjective things that you can feel, (and who but an engineer would wanttolook at the world that way?) here is one answer. I'm a software engineer, but I still don't want to look at the world that way. :) One function of a rod (and its relative importance may be over rated sincethe added velocity is about 20% of the total velocity ) is to transfer thespring energy in the loaded rod into additional line velocity as it unloadsat the end of the cast. Okay, it's overrated. As a practical matter of how important weight and the natural frequencyarod are, try this experiment sometime. Tape on a 1/2 oz. sinker to the tipof your rod. This will increase its weight slightly but will slow down itsnatural frequency a great deal. Let us know what you think of thedifference. Gordon, how interesting that you come up with a similar experiment to John Merwin's but with the opposite conclusion. In "The New America Trout Fishing" Merwin writes regarding canerods: "..and found that at one time fly rods *did* do some of the work in casting in ways that might be surprising to a new generation of fly casters whohave cut their casting teeth on modern graphite rods." ... "The rod was bending of its own weight when moving back and forth in casting, and this bending happened to move the short line in a satisfactory manner." ... he lengthens the cast and notes "It was still clear however, that the moving mass ofthe rod itself was helping to propel the line through the air."... "Because graphite as a rod material is so much lighter and stiffer than bamboo, the effect of its mass on the casting cycle is ... almost insignificant." Then he suggests wrapping fine lead wire around the tip of a graphite rodto give some semblance of the effect of mass. Gordon, what I was suggesting by my letter was that a few ounces in hand (with cane, say) is better than having to wave one's arms about to get a stiff graphite to load. The push for lighter rods, as I mentioned, was going on 60+ years ago. I feel that it was and is counterproductive. Best regards,Reed Curry BTW: Its also ludicrous to suggest that a carpenter, for example, whoswings a 16 oz hammer for 8 hours (non-union) will be crippled by a fly rod that weighs 5 oz. rather than 3 oz. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 18:56:46 1996 Subject: re:Garrison193..Don Hi Don,My reference to the 'dreadful' Garrison tapers was as I said a purelypersonal observation. I do not think they offer what I am looking for in arod taper. Difficult to time and not sufficient reserve power. They alsotended to throw a wider loop than I like. The wind on the local rivers canbea problem. A good rod in my estimation does not have to be thought aboutonevery cast. On the other hand a great rod not only works with your naturaltiming but gives 'silly grin' pleasure with every cast. I remember a YoungMidge.....I hope this explains whay I meant with my comments. I certainly wouldnotpoint out that the emperor has no clothes.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 18:57:31 1996 Subject: re: math formula/slide rules I would like to note that many of my initial calculations of the GarrisonFormule was also done with a slide rule. The slide rule is a much malignedintrument of quick accurate approximation. Do not underestimate thepower ofthe slide rule. You are kept in closer touch with each phase of thecalculations and I believe you aquire a greater feel for the relationshipsone calculation has for the next. Yes I still keep one on my building bench.Good luck charm?A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 19:02:42 1996 Subject: Heavy Rods Terry Finger writes of his use of larger/heavier than the accepted norm inbamboo. Having spent much of my early building time with unfashionablylargerods I have come to the conclusion that with proper design rods through8.5ftare practical and comfortable. I use a para taper on the 8.5 through 9 ftrods as it keeps the weight down. On 8ft rods I can use either a para taperor a faster dry type taper depending on the desired result. I question theusefulness of para tapers below 7ft. I am still working on 3pc paratapers...that darn lower ferrule is REALLY in the way. A two pc large rod makes foraquite ungainly stick to handle in the shop.Quite a few of my rods have been used for steelhead. This should hopefulydispel the rumor that bamboo is only useful for small light rods. Thedesignwork for the larger rods has of course been a commercial flop. I wish I could remember who it was that said you can measure the loveanddedication of a bamboo rod user by the longest chunk of cane he is willingtouse.A tertiary point is that to use a larger cane rod some conditioning isneeded. Practice and conditioning is the accepted norm in almost everyotheractive sport. The use of larger cane is skued I believe because most of thecurrent builders are hand planers with the result that arm stength is notaslimiting a factor for the rodbuilder.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 19:58:49 1996 Subject: Re: Weight of rods Chris,Thanks for the interesting quotes.If you want to see a Garrison in action, look at "Modern Fly Casting" by John Alden Knight (Scribners, 1942). A great book with some interesting notes on rod selection. The rod shown in the casting photos isa Garrison.As to the school of casting John A. Knight espoused, I quote from the book: "In actual angling, after you have schooled yourself in the fundementals, the backcast can be made merely with the wrist and almost no movementof the forearm." Reed Also your comment about elbow against side brings up another point. Peoplewho cast Garrison and have trouble are probably using a "modern" castingstyle, rather than a classic one. Remember, last year at Grayling, we hadanumber of rods and lines. People had to marry up to the casting styledemanded by the original designer, rhythm, and type of line to getexpectedperformance. People expect too much when they try a rod out of theoriginalcontext of the design. We had a Garrison taper that really demanded thatelbow be tight and rod straight up, once done it was a dream to cast. Sorryno Lefty Kreh styles here. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 20:16:00 1996 Subject: Cane Quackery After 2 weeks weeks of reading and replying on computer generatedtapersI,ve come to the conclusion that it is just an exercise in self promotion ofa class of techno-builders that are trying to make bamboo rodmakingmorethan the handicraft it is, and always was. It is not that difficult to make a rod,I fish with the first rod I everbuilt, it's a piece of junk but when I built it I thought it was justgreat.I'll always remember building it. You have got to develop your own techniques and proccesses, dont copy oldtapers they dont always work with todays lines. Most of the older tapersaredesigned for silk lines and their diameters were smaller.This is especiallytrue of the lighter bamboo rods. I bet a silk on a Garrison 201 could wellbe poetry Basically all the top class rods were very similar, especially the tipsection so you can experiment by having a standard tip section then playaround with butt sections. This way you use just 6 strips. The butt section to me is where it all happens, when you pull line off thewater or driving it forward the butt section does the work, the tip sectionis close to horizontal. I have not made too many shavings in the last 2 weeks and thats not good,its very addictive this cyberworld (is that the right buzz word), but it isnot the real world. I've drunk my last beer and the wife is moaning she never sees me.I'tstough being a computer nurd.T Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 20:16:07 1996 Subject: Re: Heavy Rods A.J.,I must have missed the Terry Finger posting regarding heavy rods. I, almost invariably use 8.5' to 10' cane rods. I have had some that are wrist- breakers; improperly balanced and not particularly useful. One is a 10' Leonard from 1900-1910 period. Visually, a work of art, but once you start casting you realize the artist was a sadist.On the other hand, I have rods that are 9', 5 oz. but, with the proper reel seem light and delicate. I mentioned earlier the 10' 5wt. cane, this rod feels lighter and casts lighter, than most 8' cane rods I have used. Go figure. Reed Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 20:38:55 1996 Subject: Glue Removel Mike: I have followed Waynes suggestions regarding gluing and glue removal. Ilearned his technique at his elbow and it has worked for me (seven rodsnow)and I removed the glue and binding cord from the seventh rod just today! Since I am not familiar with pre-drying glue removal techniques, I am leftwith the epoxy/cord matrix as you are. First, I place the rod section on aflat work surface which is well illuminated. I begin with the butt section(for warm-up!). I use a six inch mill bastard file and with short strokes Iam able to remove the superficial cord without endangering the integrityofmy edges! When the remaining cord is only faint X's on the rod surface, Iswitch to a 3M sanding block and 220 grit paper to dress the remainingepoxydown to the enamel. Then to 280, and finally to 400 grit. The processtakesthe better part of an hour per section. As I approach the tip, I use anOptivisor for better visualization of the flats. Works for me. Congratulations on getting this far on your first rod! It's smooth sailing from this point... Ken Rongey from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 23:41:22 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison/Carmichael A master`s.... Dear Seppo I have a book dealer in Canada who has 2 or 3 copies of Garrison (around80.US$)Send me a private e-mail if you need his address, JB Hello folks! I haven`t been able to contact any Finnish rodmakers to get moreknowledge about rodbuilding. Also I have tried to find Garrison`s bookA master`s guide to building a bamboo fly rod, but I haven`t been able to find it anywhere :- (Due to this problem of mine I was wondering if any of you guys might be willing to make a "change". Send that book to me , and I will sendsomething Finnish stuff back. Other book that might be good for me is Wayne Cattanach`s Handcrafting Bamboo Flyrods.So if there is somebody interested in this "opportunity" -> throw me amail. I am getting desperate!!!! -knowledge increases the pain- Seppo Karkkainenseppo.karkkainen@ntc.nokia.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 20 23:46:19 1996 Subject: Re: Heavy Rods I have come to the conclusion that with proper design rods through8.5ftare practical and comfortable. I use a para taper on the 8.5 through 9 ftrods as it keeps the weight down.You have got to develop your own techniques and proccesses, dont copyoldtapers they dont always work with todays lines. Most of the older tapersaredesigned for silk lines and their diameters were smaller. A good point about old tapers not working with the sausage-like floating lines sold today. However, let us not conclude that the answer is to modify good rod tapers to suit poor lines. Cane rods are not suitable for Modern Flyfishing for 3 reasons:a/ Cane cannot stand the abuse of lifting 30' of fast-sinking line. Any cane rod would soon develop a grevious set.b/ Cane is not suitable for horsing fish in with heavy tippets, so one can C&R 60 fish a day.c/ Cane is not amenable to the Lefty Kreh style of casting. I once let a very proficient modern caster try a mint Phillipson, a Western wind stick. The fellow was soon throwing 75' of 6DT, double-hauling away. When he handed the rod back to me after only 5 minutes, it had a noticeable casting set. He thanked me and said that his grandfather never let him use his cane rods because he ruined them :( It is possible to produce cane rods that emulate graphite rods in action; but who would want to buy one????? These are merely my opinions, not intended to be inflamatory. Reed Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 21 20:28:03 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Quackery Terry,I'll address the less crusty and subjective part of your posting. You have got to develop your own techniques and proccesses, dont copyoldtapers they dont always work with todays lines. Most of the older tapersaredesigned for silk lines and their diameters were smaller. A good point about old tapers not working with the sausage-like floating lines sold today. However, let us not conclude that the answer is to modify good rod tapers to suit poor lines. Cane rods are not suitable for Modern Flyfishing for 3 reasons:a/ Cane cannot stand the abuse of lifting 30' of fast-sinking line. Any cane rod would soon develop a grevious set.b/ Cane is not suitable for horsing fish in with heavy tippets, so one can C&R 60 fish a day.c/ Cane is not amenable to the Lefty Kreh style of casting. I once let a very proficient modern caster try a mint Phillipson,a Western wind stick. The fellow was soon throwing 75' of 6DT, double-hauling away. When he handed the rod back to me after only 5 minutes, it had a noticeable casting set. He thanked me and said that his grandfather never let him use his cane rods because he ruined them :( It is possible to produce cane rods that emulate graphite rods in action; but who would want to buy one????? These are merely my opinions, not intended to be inflamatory. Reed Curry Reed,this list does seem to be just a tiny bit contemtuous of any angler thatdoes not appreciate bamboo. Not everyone out there with a graphite rod is a bad caster It is a littlepretentious to assume so. What is wrong with building fast rods for a market that wants fast rods?youcertainly will not tempt many buyers with the more esoteric designs,thesecan come later when the appreciation of bamboo has developed. regards,Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 21 20:32:49 1996 Subject: Re: simple tapers Terry,You shouldn't tell all our secrets, the laptop boys will be out ofwork. Hey, does any body have a taper program for the Mac?Hank Woolman. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 21 21:07:20 1996 Subject: more epoxy about 3 years ago I glued up a set of blanks using West System Epoxy,afterunwrapping them I proceeded to straighten the first tip with heat and itcame appart. The next morning I called the manufacturers and theyexplainedthat their epoxy had no heat risistance. What was left of the set was put in a corner. During the summer I was having a rare clean up and I came across theblanks.I casually flexed the tip section and it came apart at the glue line into 6strips. I used a small job amount, just mix the 2 sachets, could not haveblamed getting the proportions wrong. I cannot see any advantage in using epoxy, it is expensive, smelly, andmessy to clean up. There are adhesives out there with a 50 year track record in bamboorodmaking, they just cannot be topped. They are easy to apply and and thethermoset variety have an almost limitless clamping time. You guys out there can choose whatever glue you fancy but be sure you cantrust it because if they start to fail a couple of years down the road weare all going to suffer. Epoxy could be for us bamboo rod makers at least a technical promise thatcannot be fulfilled. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 21 21:18:38 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Quackery Terry,You said,this list does seem to be just a tiny bit contemtuous of any angler thatdoes not appreciate bamboo. I've never seen this. My opinions are my own, not the lists; and they do not imply contempt. How would most new anglers have anappreciation of bamboo, they don't get much chance to see it, from what I've heard. The FF industry is dedicated to graphite, the writers (with the possible exception of Geirach) for the trade publications are dismissive of the advantages of cane rods; and to make matters worse, some rodmakersproduce rods which emulate graphite fast actions. Thus the best of cane isinvisible to the average flyfisherman. Not everyone out there with a graphite rod is a bad caster It is a littlepretentious to assume so. You weren't reading what I wrote. I am a bad caster; I watched a very proficient MODERN caster gracefully damage one of my rods. My fault, not his.The blame didn't lie in his casting technique but in my offering him a rod made of a material (cane) which couldn't withstand his casting. What is wrong with building fast rods for a market that wants fast rods?youcertainly will not tempt many buyers with the more esoteric designs,thesecan come later when the appreciation of bamboo has developed. That is a little like affirmative action. IMHO, it won't work. You will only lead people to believe that cane is a poor substitute for graphite, since you're not introducing them to its positive properties. Best regards,Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 21 21:48:10 1996 Subject: Re: simple tapers Hank Purists please close eyes while reading. Contains computer related language. The wks tapers program at the ftp site will convert to Excel and run on your mac..I can't find the E-mail of it's origins however.. I think it's based on Garrison tapers?? Bruce probably knows.. Several of us are busy trying to re-produce Wayne's Hexrod prodgram for Excel.. should be available in a few weeks..or the BBQ..or.. anyway we're working on it. I've found that any excel for dos will run on the mac. Jerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 21 22:03:25 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Quackery Reed Tell me more.. How does a rod take a set in just one session. I guess I ass- umed that the stresses would be balanced between fore and backcasting with the exception of the power-stroke. Doesn't the forward flex of the rod dissuade the onset of SET during, on-the-water time?I'm afraid my convoluted casting style will butcher my rodmaking attempts.. Or, what is it exactly,loosly, that makes some techniques so damning to bamboo.jerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 21 23:49:34 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Quackery NOT IMFLAMATORY!!!Surely(shirley) you jest. Points A,B.&C are pure tripe.Perhaps you have never seen what our forefathers have done with cane.A) Photos of large fish taken in years gone by B) Classic rods that have quite obviously been fished hard but are stillsoundC) Temper your cane! D) Perfect a taper that will do the jobE) DON'T water staighten the sticks. Gegads now I'm ready to blow a heart valve!!!!Back to this later.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 21 23:49:48 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Quackery Hi Jerry,I'm calmed down a bit now. Whew! A set in a rod is extremely common with a Garrison repro if it was done"bythe book".A rod so built will have soft cane combined with stresses that skyrocketcoming out of the ferrule. This will lead to at least some tendency to takeaset. The absurd emphasis on weight instead of balance has led to thedevelopment of some tapers that simply don't have enough 'wood' in them. Iwas not at the incident where the set occured so I have no idea whethertheset came about from abuse or use. The line between the two is somewhatblurryanyway.So to sum up , A) Temper the cane.. yes this means doing your own tests... until it is asstiff as practible.B) Design a taper that will do what you want it to... let the rod weight takecare of itself.C) Keep your cane dry..dry..dry. Oh yeah dry the cane.D) After your 100th rod you will still be learning but the 'curve' isn'tquite as steep.E) Epoxy???F) Be sure to dry out the cane.G) Mr.Kreh aaaaagh!!! With advice on how to cast a country mile using the'Lefty Kreh' system we would all be using graphite rods so stiff we wouldhave to overline them 2 or 3 sizes to get ANY action out of them and weSTILLwould't know how to catch a fish if it bit us in the ass. Hold on... whathappened aaaaaagh!!! it wasn't a nightmare . IT'S TRUE SOYLENTGREEN????1984???? COMPUTERS CONTROLLING OUR LIFE!!!NO!!! NO!!! IT'S GRAPPPPHITE!!!!! HELP MEEEeeeee!!! Sorry. It is not inevitable, with proper modern taper design andconstuctiontechniques we can all avoind this trip into the TWILIGHT ZONE of roddesign.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 00:14:47 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Quackery Terry,I for one see nothing wrong with building "fast" action cane rods for thosewho want them.....however, due to lack of general availability, I am notsure what a "fast"cane rod is...example, have never tried an Orvis cane rodthat I would characterize as fast, have a Pezon et Michel Fario Club thatin the overall scheme of things I think is probably "medium fast". Wouldlove to know what your idea of a "fast" cane rod is. For my part, will soonbe able to cast some of A. J.'s rods and broaden my knowledge base.Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 03:43:14 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Quackery At 12:58 AM 4/22/96 -0500, you wrote:Terry,I for one see nothing wrong with building "fast" action cane rods forthosewho want them.....however, due to lack of general availability, I am notsure what a "fast"cane rod is...example, have never tried an Orvis cane rodthat I would characterize as fast, have a Pezon et Michel Fario Club thatin the overall scheme of things I think is probably "medium fast". Wouldlove to know what your idea of a "fast" cane rod is. For my part, willsoonbe able to cast some of A. J.'s rods and broaden my knowledge base.Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane Tom, I have only tried one quite a few years ago, but if you ever have toopportunity try a Nate Uslan five strip rod. The one I tried was very fast,as I recall. My best, Dave Engerbretson dengerbr@moscow.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 07:05:12 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? To Terry, you answered a guys question about what weight of line a Garrison 193should take and I've just re-read the reply again and you in fact did notmention a garrison taper, I,m very sorry. But to be honest you did notanswer the guys question, he wanted the line weight for a Garrison rodnot aZimny.You were plugging a computer programme. The guy may not have acomputer,some people can get by without them, it sounds unbelievable I know. Terry, Kinda' hard to be here without some kind of a computer, don't you think? Garrison rods are too loose from the ferrule down (2 piece ) if you get anylength of line in the air it is difficult to keep it up. They are Ok forshort casts. Add some extra bamboo in the butt section, you feel no extraweight because it is in the hand. It is not just me that finds Garrisontapers a little difficult.What made you and all the computer boys pick on Garrison tapers to buildyour programs around , why not Leonard, Payne , Dickerson or any of thegreat professional rod makers. I believe it's because Garrison published a formal. It's easy to translate a formula into a computer program.That's how I make a living - more or less. Why pick on an amateur? As mentioned elsewhere, the professionals, (Professional Companiesbuilding ft Montigue with only FOUR guides on it. (No it hadn't been re wrapped.) Why can't an amateur build as good as a professional? I'd guess that the majority of us are amateurs. or onlysimi-pro. The other Terry,Safety Harbor Fl. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 12:44:20 1996 Subject: Buyers' perplexed The cane versus graphite discussion has spilledover into the FF@ list. I think initially becausea post or two that were intended for this listended up there. In any case, after extolling thevirtues of cane, I received an e-mail off list fromsomeone who said he was interested in bamboo but hewas totally confused about whose rod to buy. His point was that he could easily get information aboutgraphite rods from a variety of sources, but there was noeasy way for him to get similar information about cane rods.Now, he was referring to used rods, but his confusion wouldbe no different if he were in the market for a new rod. Itmight be worse in fact, considering that with older rods thereis some backlog of public opinion concerning their quality. I think you guys need to address this problem if you're seriousabout tapping the growth of the fly fishing market. Dick Spurr'svalue guide to bamboo at the Classic Angler is a step in the rightdirection, but it needs to be taken much farther if you expectfolks to part with their hard earned farthings. Also, I think A.J.s excellent. Finally, you need to let the buyer know that the lifetimegraphite guarantee is really no different than what you are willingto offer. I know of several potential buyers who worry that theywill spend $700 plus for a rod and then drive over it in their Jeep.Adding $50-75 to the price of a rod to guarantee repair and replacement I don't know how one puts a cane builders consortium together, but Iknow that if I were a builder, I'd be on the phone to Dick Spurr todiscuss how the WWW and the Internet might be utilized to do it. richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 13:42:37 1996 Subject: Subscripion planing form Does anyone know what the subscription cost of the "Planing Form" newsletter is?Clark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. Street.Zion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext. 270c-davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 13:42:53 1996 Subject: quad blank Looking for a 8', 4 wt., 2 piece, two tip, quad blank with the ferrals set.Please e-mail a responce if intereseted. Clark DavisClark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. Street.Zion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext. 270c-davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 13:58:45 1996 Subject: Re: quad blank Mike Spittler in Mn and Per ? can't recall the last name are two rod builders making quads but I doubt either would sell you a blank. They build complete rods. I have never seen a quad or any but a normal 6 strip as a blank . You will pay good money for a used Edwards too. I think your best plan is to make your own. John Friedman from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 16:28:45 1996 Subject: Re: Weight of rods Looks as if the LISTPROC spit back one of "The Other Terry" 's :-)messages. In looking over the LISTPROC error message that wasincluded with Terry's message it appears that the message was Just a reminder to all, when you hit the reply key, make sureyour mailer is picking up the correct REPLY-TO address. Somemailers mistakenly pick up the 'owner-rodmakers' address insteadof just 'rodmakers.wugate.wustl.edu' Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= from TKirkpat@clw.unisysgsg.com Mon Apr 22 15:00:57 1996Received: from sunny by wugate.wustl.edu (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP idPAA05554 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 199615:00:54 -0500Received: from msgate1.clw.unisysgsg.com by sunny (5.0/SMI-SVR4.102) id AA03860; Mon, 22 Apr 1996 15:59:37 +0500Received: by msgate1.clw.unisysgsg.com with Microsoft Mail id ; Mon, 22 Apr 96 15:57:48EDTFrom: "Kirkpatrick, Terry @ CLW" Subject: Re: Weight of rodsDate: Mon, 22 Apr 96 15:57:00 EDTMessage-Id: Encoding: 30 TEXTX-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0content-length: 1273 =As a practical matter of how important weight and the naturalfrequency a=rod are, try this experiment sometime. Tape on a 1/2 oz. sinker to thetip=of your rod. This will increase its weight slightly but will slow downits=natural frequency a great deal. Let us know what you think of the=difference. Interesting, if a little (more then a little) over my head. There are a couple of thing that aren't in your original post that will modify the casting ability of a rod.one of them is moment(sp?) defined here as the distance from thefulcrum. (your wrist.) The longer the rod the more moment. Try this simple experiment. tie a loop of 8wt on a six foot rod and an eight foot rod. hold both horizontal.See which touches the ground first!Almost every guru of flyfishing that comes to our club points out thatyou can't fight a large fish with the tip of the rod. You have to fight it with the butt. They usually give the example of tying a 10lb. bucket of sand to your fly line and trying to pick it up off the floor. Good luck. Your explanation gives some interesting light on why we need a rod at all. (ever try casting line without a rod? I hear Lee Wolff could cast about 65ft without a rod....) Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor Fl. from listproc@wugate Mon Apr 22 16:50:48 1996 Subject: REVIEW RODMAKERS ****** rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu: Bamboo Flyrod Making, Restoring, andCollecting****** Date created: Fri Apr 14 10:45:54 1995 --- The current list settings are as follows: OPEN: subscriptions are open.SEND: open to all.VISIBLE: the list shows up in listings.NO-ARCHIVE: no logs are kept.STATS: open to all.REVIEW: open to all.ARCHIVES: available to all.UNMODERATED: postings not controlled.DIGEST: digests distributed daily at 15:00 MESSAGE-LIMIT: unlimited daily postings.FORWARD-REJECTS: no; all listproc-generated errors sent to sender.REPLY-TO-LIST-ALWAYSAUTO-DELETE-SUBSCRIBERS: yes.KEEP- RESENT-LINES: yes; Resent- header lines preserved.DELIVERY-ERRORS: non- delivery reports are sent tomichael@wupsych.wustl.edu OWNERS: michael@wupsych.wustl.edu michael@sirronald.wustl.edu --- Here is the current list of all subscribers: johannes@scribes.english.uiuc.edu. John B. Friedmanparkerdh@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca David H. Parkerdmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Don Andersenhaas@bcu.ubc.ca Gordon Haasarqmmao@dow.on.doe.ca Mauro Aiellomelvild@govonca2.gov.on.ca Doug Melvillecarla.violin@utoronto.ca MAURO AIELLOjboone@julian.uwo.ca jim boonebthomson@marathon.lakeheadu.ca bryan w. thomsonbrfisher@cs.sfu.ca Brian Fisherjsaayman@avitronics.co.za Johan SaaymanMikael.Marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.SE Mikael MarklundBo.Wessman@samskola.danderyd.se Bo Wessmanjzon@oden.se Janne Johanssonjzaia@smtplink.Coh.ORG John A. Zaiatom@sp1.hitchcock.org Tom AusfeldWWAHL@worldbank.org Bill Wahllblan@grfn.ORG lblangich@rain.org gerry ichikawajdonovan@csn.org Jerry Donovanmraiskio@kure1.pudis.fi Marko Raiskioerik@ifad.dk Erik Toubro Nielsenballard@zen.wes.army.mil Jerry Ballardseppo.karkkainen@ntc.nokia.com Seppo KJorgeCarcao@myna.com Jorge Carcaobruno@vv.cta.com Bill Cooperhsc4floo@wwa.com Bob Lavieririchjez@wwa.com Rich Jeziorohomeier@marsweb.com TED HESS-HOMEIERnews- star@wwic.com Buster Wolfeglandry@smtpgate.read.tasc.com Gary Landryldunworth@elsys.zland.com ldunworth@mail.zland.comCraig.Hall@Softimage.COM Craig Hallj.johnson150@genie.com j.johnson150@genie.geis.comjjohnson@netime.com John Johnsonlblan@oeonline.com Larry Blanquinchat@htonline.com Dennis Bertramhenry@novagate.com Jim Henryreed@speedy.palette.com Reed Currynelson@pacific.telebyte.com Scott Nelson73251.1513@compuserve.com Karl Almquist76262.2533@compuserve.com Martin Jensen75543.1077@compuserve.com Rich Fosnotbrhodes@mindspring.com Barry RhodesTKirkpat@clw.unisysgsg.com Terry L. Kirkpatricklogsdon@heather.corp.sgi.com Ryan LogsdonLEITHEISERM@delphi.com Mike Leitheiserpea@wri.com Bruce Peajimiller@powergrid.electriciti.com Jim Milleralfox@pclink.com Alan D. Fox (alfox@pclink.com).0001196812@mcimail.com vernon l. martinINFOSYS!INFOSYSPO!BWATKINS@msatt.attmail.com Bill WatkinsTedR1@aol.com Ted RosenkrantzEJones7103@aol.com Emery Clark JonesPeterG4444@aol.com Pete GlazierThomasK797@aol.com Tom KingFallcreek9@aol.com Richard Tyreejonrc@aol.com Jonathan ClarkeDRBRAD4D@aol.com Dr. Bradford EdgrenDIXALEE@aol.com A.J. ThramerTonkincane@aol.com Jim ConnellRckyMtKane@aol.com Joe E. ArguelloLesYoung@aol.com Lester Young.LymanHugh@aol.com Lyman HughesBLBIII@aol.com Ben BenoitRij@aol.com Bruce ThorpeFLYFISHERJ@aol.com FLYFISHERJ@AOL.COMLinerLock@aol.com LINERLOCK@AOL.COMRJRandall@aol.com w.r.randall, jr.FISHWOOL@aol.com (Hank Woolman)anachemrpo@aol.com Russell Lavignehowellrods@aol.com Jack HowellBamboRods@aol.com list---Jon ParkerForneys@aol.com Mark ForneyWayneCatt@aol.com Wayne CattanachKilchsGray@aol.com Roger.WigginRONGEY@aol.com Ken Rongeythezig@ix.netcom.com Jim Zieglerglandry@ix.netcom.com GLandryOgwen@gnn.com Jody LeakHADN@chevron.com Darryl Hayashidawlorman@mamadison.com William LormanLONGJ@detroitedison.com John Longjhward@halcyon.com Jeff WardBARNARPJ@cglpo1.usachem.msnet.bp.com Pat Barnardhood@dilbert.fc.hp.com David A. Hoodpmoruzzi@hpwarhw.an.hp.com Paul Moruzziir000837@pop3.interramp.com Steve Schanzerspurr@kingfisher.com Dick Spurrrmoon@eiis.com RALPH MOONcrocm@netaxis.com ed muraskitjnoto@mail.erols.com Tom Notowishbone@headwaters.com IAN SCOTTDEGREEF.STEVE@tntv7.ntrs.com Steve DeGreefkhube@benmeadows.com KARL HUBEpeterqz@primenet.com Peter Quizertmadden@aimnet.com Bob Maddentrico@qnet.com Mac Freyfly-man@ra.isisnet.com Geoffrey Plourdefraysier@mounet.com Larry Fraysierjonrc@cent.com Jonathan ClarkePaul.Urban@BTCO.sprint.com 'PAUL URBAN'gord@teleport.com gordon johnsonmurray_ray@msmgate.mrg.uswest.com Murray Rayowen@davies.mv.com Owen DaviesPaul_M._Leong.OSBU_North@xerox.com Paul LeongLloyd.Cross@clorox.com LLOYD.CROSSHXFZ42A@prodigy.com J.C. Zimnymwnr19a@prodigy.com Jed DempseyRZBG79A@prodigy.com Craig Adamstert@cc.uib.no Terje TverasIvar.Flygt@kj.uib.no IVAR FLYGTTore.A.Hermansen@tdh.no Tore Andre Hermansenka@grana.ivb.unit.no Knut Alfredsengpayne@iserver.ychs.ycusd.k12.ca.us Greg Paynemeaster@sdcoe.k12.ca.us Mark Eastjohnson@police.ci.ssf.ca.us Richard Johnsontball@sunny.ncmc.cc.mi.us Tom Ballc- davis@zbths.k12.il.us Clark Davistfinger@services.state.mo.us Terry Fingergeneh@usa.net gene holowachukmjmckie@net2.netacc.net Jack Mc Kiercurry@handel.jlc.net reed f. currydgary@spokane.net -- Dene W. Garyjfoster@gte.net Jerry Fosterolcmt@mailhost.pi.net hans kohlbootstrap@earthlink.net Frank Armbrusterjudd@cosmoslink.net Gordon Juddchuckt@jetlink.net charles tello.sallred@ibm.net Scott Allredwellive@ibm.net Barry Wellivercbogart@ibm.net Chris Bogartbconner@cybercom.net Bruce Connerthopkins@mcn.net Todd Hopkinsmarcak@micron.net Charles Marcakjsbond@inforamp.net James Bondthopkins@wtp.net Todd Hopkinsjmeier@bright.net James Meierjudd@cogent.net Gordon Juddr.schiller@worldnet.att.net Richard Schillergunnar@ncw.net Mike Dulljart@epix.net Jack Tuckerplipton@sunvalley.net Philip Lipton,plipton@sunvalley.nettpaulsen@ecity.net Terry Paulsentharris@oz.net Tim Harrisdarrylt@mail.iconnect.net.au Darryl T.JKWOOD@CAS.UNOMAHA.EDU James K. Woodddm7t@darwin.clas.virginia.edu Dave Makelcchoy@ucla.edu C. Choycs9501@english.usma.edu STEPHEN LUEBKEwalterb@msu.oscs.montana.edu - W. William Blackburnjackc@gl.umbc.edu Jack Chenmcdowellc@lanecc.edu Chris McDowellWard_Tonsfeldt@cocc.edu Ward Tonsfeldtoborge@uno.aiss.uic.edu 'Olaf Borge'GYLESL@darla.badm.sc.edu Leon Gylesbx470@Freenet.UCHSC.EDU Jim Fillpotsteven.carleton@uc.edu Steven Carletonwfinney@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu Bill Finneybrunvand@telemark.cs.utah.edu Erik Brunvandcbutter@umich.edu CBUTTERgelinas@ekman.unh.edu Russell Gelinastedg@oz.plymouth.edu Ted Giebutowskiwlambers@mail.coin.missouri.edu Bill LambersonRHeller@swri.edu Robert HellerSteven.Carleton%UC.Edu@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU STEVEN.CARLETONMCBROOM%ETSUACAD.ETSU.EDU@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU DR. J.R. MCBROOMmichael@wupsych.wustl.edu Mike Biondohbeernin@protein.med.uvm.edu Hans Beerninkjnogueir@moose.uvm.edu Jake Nogueirastetzer@csd.uwm.edu Frank Stetzermoonx007@gold.tc.umn.edu Maxwell Moonguero002@maroon.tc.umn.edu Ioni Gueroncarte004@maroon.tc.umn.edu John Carterpplumbo@che2.che.umn.edu Phil Plumbowaspane@u.washington.edu wade spaneiturner@u.washington.edu ivan turnerddevries@CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU David DeVriesddevries@fullerton.edu David L. DeVriesGDAVIS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU Grayson DavisGJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU gjflyfsh@uwyo.edu GeraldJohnson Laramie Wygusp@uwyo.edu Gus PetroskiBambuzlr@UWYO.EDU Chuck Masonjohn@thunder.ofps.ucar.edu John J. Allisonlsgorney@rs01.kings.edu Len Gorneyeabautista@ucdavis.edu Erwin Bautistar_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard Franksrobbins@urd.umass.edu Steve Robbinsmthane@acs.bu.edu Michael Thanejtausig@acs.bu.edu Jared TausigPRCHLB@langate.gsu.edu Harold Balldkatz@artorg.hmc.psu.edu David N. Katzsxl8@psu.edu David LeschinskyRandy_McBroom@etsu.edu James R. McBroomENGERBR@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU Dave EngerbretsonBNUTTALL@FIDO.MM.UKY.EDU BRANDON C. NUTTALLJKADAMS@fcc.gov John AdamsDOLAN.SPITLER@hq.doe.gov dolan spitlerCliff_Sojourner@macmail.lbl.gov Cliff SojournerTotal number of subscribers: 199 (199 shown here) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 16:51:01 1996 Subject: Tempering typo Those of you out there tempering your cane to the Garrison Time/Tempformulaare a mile off. The times in the book are an obvious typo, you could not drya piece of paper in 6 mins. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 17:41:15 1996 Subject: Re: quad blank Per Brandin makes quad rods. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 18:17:21 1996 Subject: Cane Temper This is an ovious typo error, you could not dry a sheet of wet paper in 6mins.Hands up those that have been following these instructions? Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 18:46:27 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Quackery A.J.,I regret that some words of mine threatened your coronary health. If you'd drink lager and lime rather than those pernicious microbrews, you might not have the problem:)No, I did not intend my remarks as inflamatory; yet, I knew they MIGHT be. NOT IMFLAMATORY!!!Surely(shirley) you jest. Points A,B.&C are pure tripe. Surely, not pure tripe. Perhaps you have never seen what our forefathers have done with cane. I was working yesterday on refinishing a lovely Leonard 10' 5wt. 3/2 produced in 1907. The tips are still perfect, apart from one missing snake guide. The rod casts a beautiful, straight line, with little effort. You barely notice its 5.5 oz. And that Calcutta cane looks good. BTW, hasanyone done a good match on the "smoked salmon" color silk that Leonard used? A) Photos of large fish taken in years gone by Nice fish, of course the angling literature of the time permitted dead fish pictures. And it was recommended to play the fish slowly to exhaustion, partly because gut leaders didn't test 5 lbs. for 5x, and partly to save wear on the rod. How many times have you read the advice to roll the rod over while playing a large fish to avoid a set? B) Classic rods that have quite obviously been fished hard but are stillsound I have plenty of them. But, they were fished with care, and power casting was not part of the regimen. C) Temper your cane! Just like my F.E. Thomas, two Leonards, and Nichols ... aren't??? In fact, many old rodmakers used just a cursory flaming (not the type youattributed to me). D) Perfect a taper that will do the job Which job? Hauling sink tip line into a backcast? E) DON'T water staighten the sticks. That makes sense. Perform the preliminary straightening as it leaves the glue bath. Wait a few weeks then, if necessary, use a torch. Gegads now I'm ready to blow a heart valve!!!!Back to this later. Kind regards, Reed F. Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 19:49:10 1996 Subject: List separation Listmembers,I enjoy the stimulating environment of this list, but I am not a member of any other lists. I'm sure others share this. Hence, if what wesay in this venue is transported to another list, we will have no opportunity to respond to questions/rebuttals. This can lead to misunderstandings.Therefore, I tender that mail entered upon this list should be contained within this list unless the writer expressly permits itsbroadcast.How say ye?Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 19:50:43 1996 Subject: Re: simple tapers Hank Purists please close eyes while reading. Contains computer related language. The wks tapers program at the ftp site will convert to Excel and run on your mac..I can't find the E-mail of it's origins however.. I think it's based on Garrison tapers?? Bruce probably knows.. Several of us are busy trying to re-produce Wayne's Hexrod prodgram for Excel.. should be available in a few weeks..or the BBQ..or.. anyway we're working on it. I've found that any excel for dos will run on the mac. Jerry Hi Jerry, I'm no purist but if were going to keep bamboo rodmaking alive the rodshavegot to be good. I,ve tried to get pertinent answers from you guys. I,ll tryagain. Does any of your programs take into account moisture content of thebamboo? Does any of your programs take into account the heat treatment? Thanks,T.Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 20:08:07 1996 Subject: Re: simple tapers Hi Terry On a serious note, I'm working from a programatic sense here.. I don't know ( which makes your point ) if there is any imperical data which could enter Wayne's calculations or anyone's either way? Good questions however.. If you have any swag i'd love to see how they work into the equations and let you test them against you hueristic knowledge. Since Wayne documents his tempering techniques and views on humidity,relative to the process, I'd have to assume ( I know) that those values are nominal given the location of the builder. Maybe not.. Need more input.. Peace Jerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 20:29:34 1996 Subject: Re: List separation Listmembers,I enjoy the stimulating environment of this list, but I am not amember of any other lists. I'm sure others share this. Hence, if what wesayin this venue is transported to another list, we will have no opportunitytorespond to questions/rebuttals. This can lead to misunderstandings.Therefore, I tender that mail entered upon this list should becontained within this list unless the writer expressly permits itsbroadcast.How say ye?Reed If Reed's call for a vote is predicated in any way on the post where Iindicated that that a discussion had spilled over onto another list, let memake two points. First, the migration of the thread occurred because someone who is amemberof both lists inadvertantly posted to the wrong list. It was only after Ireplied that I realized what had happened. There was no intent to movethediscourse to another list. That having been said, I would suggest thatReed'smotion is uninforcible even if it passes. There are many on this list whodobelong to other lists. Some may feel as I do that they are free to discuss any topic they choose wherever they choose to do so. If the rodmakers@wishes to vote to restrict membership only to rod makers and then only to rodmakers who swear to keep the list discourse a secret, I will thank you sincerely letting me participate and leave you to your business. richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 21:00:07 1996 Subject: Re: List separation Some may feel as I do that they are free to discuss any topic they choose wherever they choose to do so. If the rodmakers@wishes to vote to restrict membership only to rod makers and then only to rodmakers who swear to keep the list discourse a secret, I will thank you sincerely letting me participate and leave you to your business. richard Unwittingly, I seemed to have caused yet more rancor. I will dissolveaway.... Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 21:21:04 1996 Subject: Re: more epoxy Terry, What is your adhesive of choice? Is it available in Canada directly. Thanks. JB about 3 years ago I glued up a set of blanks using West System Epoxy,afterunwrapping them I proceeded to straighten the first tip with heat and itcame appart. The next morning I called the manufacturers and theyexplainedthat their epoxy had no heat risistance. What was left of the set was put in a corner. During the summer I was having a rare clean up and I came across theblanks.I casually flexed the tip section and it came apart at the glue line into 6strips. I used a small job amount, just mix the 2 sachets, could not haveblamed getting the proportions wrong. I cannot see any advantage in using epoxy, it is expensive, smelly, andmessy to clean up. There are adhesives out there with a 50 year track record in bamboorodmaking, they just cannot be topped. They are easy to apply and and thethermoset variety have an almost limitless clamping time. You guys out there can choose whatever glue you fancy but be sure youcantrust it because if they start to fail a couple of years down the road weare all going to suffer. Epoxy could be for us bamboo rod makers at least a technical promisethatcannot be fulfilled. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 21:35:07 1996 Subject: Re: List separation Reed, No rancor at all. This list, like every other, willbe what it is. I do feel that the best way toavoid being misinterpreted is to join other lists. The recent discussion about selling rods was fascinatingto me because there are folks on this list who are interestedin having a market for their rods. Some speculate about how to reachtheir market. Just a few keystrokes away there is a list witha membership of more than 1500 fly fishers. Some own cane and manywould like to. What holds them back? I'd ask. I'll bet Sage,Loomis, Scott, Winston, T&T and Orvis know a lot more abouttheir markets than you all do. It's true that isolation avoids misunderstandings, but I'm not surewhere it gets you beyond that. (Besides, Reed, what's to bemisunderstood?You guys aren't the Global Cane Comrades and Liberationist Militia. Areyou?)richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 21:35:28 1996 Subject: Re: List separation At 08:01 PM 4/22/96 -0400, you wrote:Listmembers,I enjoy the stimulating environment of this list, but I am not a member of any other lists. I'm sure others share this. Hence, if what wesay in this venue is transported to another list, we will have no opportunityto respond to questions/rebuttals. This can lead to misunderstandings.Therefore, I tender that mail entered upon this list should be contained within this list unless the writer expressly permits itsbroadcast.How say ye?Reed Seems to me that the list archives contain ALL submissions and arecurrentlypublic. Best,Gordon from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 21:35:31 1996 Subject: Re: Subscripion planing form I think it's $15.00 year. CHEAP!!!! JB Does anyone know what the subscription cost of the "Planing Form" newsletter is?Clark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. Street.Zion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext. 270c-davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 21:58:48 1996 Subject: best adhesive Melurac 400 by American Cyanamid. This is the perfect glue for us. It is a melamine fortified formaldehyderesin.It is really waterproof. It is heat proof to the point of scorching(185breaks down under heat) It is a themoset resin so the clamp up time is upto2 days. It will set in about 20 mins in your oven at 250 degs. The colour istan so there is no glue line. I've been using this glue for about 3 years and I thought it was a moderndiscovery until I picked a book published in 1944 that mentions this glue. This was one of the secrets I had but after finding out that many of youareusing epoxy, it is in my interest to give you this tip rather than haverods falling to pieces after a couple of years. Ive waited 12 years for bamboo to make a comeback and I dont want tosee itscrewed up. Regards,TErry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 22:32:07 1996 Subject: Re: best adhesive Mr. Ackland, Bravo, Sir. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 22 23:19:32 1996 Subject: aol.com Problems Looks like AOL.COM and/or the LISTPROC is having some problems.I just got notification that the LISTPROC automatically set abouta dozen AOL.COM listmembers mail to POSTPONE. It will do thiswhenever it encounter too many delivery problems to a particularaddress. I went ahead and reset each listmember's subscription back to receivingmail. Those affected should get notice for the LISTPROC to thateffect. For everyone else, if you suddenly stop getting RODMAKERSmail, let me know and I will check to see if your subscription ishaving similar problems. The way this list has been lately, if a couple days go by and youhave not receive any RODMAKERS messages, it's probably your subscription!!! :-) Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy And just so this note is not all business... ORN (Obligatory Rodmaking Note :-)Sanded the butt section tonight of my very first rod!!!I'm sure most all of you would cringe if you saw it but it'smy BABY and I think it's beautiful!!! :-) I think I'll take a picture of it and carry it around in mywallet!!! Definitely a case of...only a face a parent couldlove!!! :-) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 04:21:12 1996 Subject: Re: epoxy Terry's mention of a thermosetting resin glue is interesting and you canbetI'll try it. However, I've got to say that I've tried several adhesives andhave found the Nyatex epoxy I currently use to be the best for my purposes.Personal choice, of course. I find it is less smelly and messy (residuecleans easily with a little rubbing alcohol) than URAC 185, is quite heatresistant, and it has given no problems. No failures of any kind with closeto 30 rods, a number of which have gotten hard use, and I know othermakerswho have used epoxy for considerably longer than I have. A quart of bothparts comes to about $40 with shipping, so maybe that's expensive, butit'salso a lot of rods and it won't spoil. I wouldn't encourage anyone to switch adhesives -- getting used to a glueishalf the battle -- and Terry's glue may be the best thing since sliced bread(again, I'll try it pronto), but I don't think a blanket condemnation ofepoxy is warranted. There are probably more different formulations ofepoxythan any other class of adhesives, and picking the wrong one is a morelikelyexplanation for a catastrophic failure than the supposed inherent badnessofepoxy. Frankly, I've heard more horror stories about URAC rods comingapart. So, what about Terry's exploding sticks? I don't know much about theWESTepoxy, but epoxy in general needs a little bit of film to be strongest. Ifan epoxy were very thin (as I've heard WEST is) and heavy binding pressuresqueezed out too much of it, the joint might come to grief. That goes forother glues besides, epoxy, though. ?Quien sabe? BTW, there was an interesting article about glues in a Woodworker or FineWoodworking, something like that, a few years ago. I'll rummage throughmypiles of similar crap and if I can find it I'll post the bibliostuff. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 09:19:17 1996 Subject: Re: Math formula? The LISTPROC had problems with another message...sorry folks! Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: "Kirkpatrick, Terry @ CLW" Subject: Re: Math formula?Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 08:46:00 EDT Hi Terry, I'm trying to find out from you laptop boys. Is there any provisions in your programs for the moisture content andtheHeat treatment of the cane? This is most important. The only program I've seen doesn't have any input for this. Its because you guys have not addressed this that you choose to ignoreit. No. If you can come up wit a formula , I can write it in a program. Do you know of any formulas that would use these arguments? TO build consistently good flyrods the proccesses must be strictlycontrolled, and this is where all you guys are making the mistake.Tapersare only part of the jigsaw. Agreed. But how do you come up with a taper. Let's say you've just cast a rod that you 'almost' like.How do you go about chaining the design to make a rod you really like. You must use some kind of formula to come up with the amount of wood toremove. I'm sure you don't stand at the bench and sight down each section andsay, "that's good enough." Where computers come in is taking the way you think and allowing you toplay "what if" games without having to shave bamboo. Some designs obviously won't work. Others look good on paper but when we run them through a program we see things that aren't readily apparent. We can "tinker" with the design until we get what we believe is close to what we want. THENput plane to bamboo. The only thing the computer does is save us having apile of shavings because we weren't as smart as we thought we were. regards,The other TerryNo No No! You're the original Terry. I"m the Other Terry. (I'm confused enough without both of us calling ourselves the same thing!!) The original Other Terry! from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 10:33:21 1996 Subject: Latin name for Calcutta cane Does any one have the Latin name for Calcutta cane? I've been lookingaround and haven't been able to find it. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 11:08:11 1996 Subject: Thadeous the rod maker Once upon a time in a distant enchanted forest lived Flyrod. Flyrod's realname was Thadeous, Thadeous the rod maker but all his friend in theenchantedforest called him Flyrod because thats what he did. In a quaint littleworkshop tucked under the giant pine tree Thadeous the rod maker madebamboofly rods.Each morning Thadeous the rod maker would start his day by planing onhisfly rod parts. These parts were special because they were made fromTonkinbamboo and you know how panda bears love bamboo. Anyway, Thadeous therodmaker worked hard but he enjoyed making his fly rods because they werespecial.Now every day about quitting time all of Thadeous's friends would comeover to his workshop. And together they would go off to the magicialstreamdeep in the enchanted forest to see there special friend for a game ofcatchand release.Their special friend was Brooke the brook trout and he lived in themagical stream deep in the enchanted forest with his other brook troutfriends.But when they arrived at the magical stream deep in the enchantedforestthey discovered Poor Mr. Graphite was already there. Poor Mr. Graphite hadscared Brooke the brook and all the other brook trout because he didn'tcastvery well. Try as he would poor Mr. Graphite couldn't land his fly on thesurface of the magical stream deep in the enchanted forest soft enough.After a bit poor Mr. Graphite finally gave up. Now Thadeous the rodmakerwanting to help poor Mr. Graphite offered to let him use one of his bamboofly rods. But poor Mr. Graphite declined saying his rod was 15% lighter.Discouraged poor Mr. Graphite left the magical stream deep in theenchantedforest to go home.Once poor Mr. Graphite had left it was their turn. So Thadeous the rodmaker and all his friends with bamboo fly rods took their positions in theprime lies in the magical stream deep in the enchanted forest. And soonBrooke the brook trout and all of his brook trout friends realized thatThadeous the rod maker was there. They could tell by the delicate castsandcame out from hiding and played catch and release with Thadeous the rodmakerand all his friends. A happy ending. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 11:08:11 1996 Subject: Thadeous the rod maker Once upon a time in a distant enchanted forest lived Flyrod. Flyrod's realname was Thadeous, Thadeous the rod maker but all his friend in theenchantedforest called him Flyrod because thats what he did. In a quaint littleworkshop tucked under the giant pine tree Thadeous the rod maker madebamboofly rods.Each morning Thadeous the rod maker would start his day by planing onhisfly rod parts. These parts were special because they were made fromTonkinbamboo and you know how panda bears love bamboo. Anyway, Thadeous therodmaker worked hard but he enjoyed making his fly rods because they werespecial.Now every day about quitting time all of Thadeous's friends would comeover to his workshop. And together they would go off to the magicialstreamdeep in the enchanted forest to see there special friend for a game ofcatchand release.Their special friend was Brooke the brook trout and he lived in themagical stream deep in the enchanted forest with his other brook troutfriends.But when they arrived at the magical stream deep in the enchantedforestthey discovered Poor Mr. Graphite was already there. Poor Mr. Graphite hadscared Brooke the brook and all the other brook trout because he didn'tcastvery well. Try as he would poor Mr. Graphite couldn't land his fly on thesurface of the magical stream deep in the enchanted forest soft enough.After a bit poor Mr. Graphite finally gave up. Now Thadeous the rodmakerwanting to help poor Mr. Graphite offered to let him use one of his bamboofly rods. But poor Mr. Graphite declined saying his rod was 15% lighter.Discouraged poor Mr. Graphite left the magical stream deep in theenchantedforest to go home.Once poor Mr. Graphite had left it was their turn. So Thadeous the rodmaker and all his friends with bamboo fly rods took their positions in theprime lies in the magical stream deep in the enchanted forest. And soonBrooke the brook trout and all of his brook trout friends realized thatThadeous the rod maker was there. They could tell by the delicate castsandcame out from hiding and played catch and release with Thadeous the rodmakerand all his friends. A happy ending. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 11:22:55 1996 Subject: Re: Thadeous the rod maker Wayne concludes his Tale of Thadeous the Bear... Thadeous the rod maker was there. They could tell by the delicate castsandcame out from hiding and played catch and release with Thadeous the rodmakerand all his friends. A happy ending. So when will the illustrations be done!!!? :-) It would make a great sales brochure. Talk about your low-key sell... Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 11:38:34 1996 Subject: Mike's butt Mike-You wrote:ORN (Obligatory Rodmaking Note :-)Sanded the butt section tonight of my very first rod!!!I'm sure most all of you would cringe if you saw it but it'smy BABY and I think it's beautiful!!! :-) I think I'll take a picture of it and carry it around in mywallet!!! Definitely a case of...only a face a parent could^^^^love!!! :-) My question is:Don't you have the wrong end? I hope you don't confuse the yourrods are constructed. (8^)> Jack Tuckerjart@epix.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 15:18:54 1996 Subject: Re: Latin name for Calcutta cane Bruce,Calcutta is Bambusa Arundinacea. ---see: Fly Rods & Fly Tackle, Wells, p.112 J Parker from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 16:12:17 1996 Subject: Re: Latin name for Calcutta cane Bruce,Calcutta is Bambusa Arundinacea. ---see: Fly Rods & Fly Tackle, Wells, p.112 J Parker Thanks. And Oh dear! I have another person (a bamboo expert) who saysthat Calcutta cane is Dendrocalamus strictus. What's worse, is that I findno mention of Bambusa arundinacea in my big list of types of bamboo(fromthe American Bamboo Society.) I am also informed that there is in fact an in depth study on theengineering aspects of various types of cane and I will be able to get myhands on it soon. Maybe we will find out for certain if Calcutta or Tonkinis really capable of more "power" and that the move to tonkin was more asupply problem than an engineering one. I'll keep you all posted. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 16:36:31 1996 Subject: RE: Latin name for Calcutta cane I am also informed that there is in fact an in depth study on theengineering aspects of various types of cane and I will be able to getmyhands on it soon. Maybe we will find out for certain if Calcutta orTonkinis really capable of more "power" and that the move to tonkin was moreasupply problem than an engineering one. I'll keep you all posted. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net I was looking at different types of bamboo in a nursery, and I saw awonderfullycolored dark purple to black bamboo. The culms were about 8 feet highand about an inch in diameter. The plant was fairly expensive, but it got meto wondering... Has anybody tried any of the hundreds of different typesofbamboo that is available? In the sub to tropical far east there is avery commonbamboo that is "logged" The culms are over 40 feet long and 8 to 10inches indiameter. I believe it is called something like Moso bamboo. I heardthat there aremany many uses for this bamboo. Construction, furniture, broken downinto paperpulp, boats, etc. Has anybody ever tried this bamboo in a flyrod? Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 17:18:15 1996 Subject: Re: Latin name for Calcutta cane Bruce and List: I do not know the scientific name for Calcutta cane, but of the two mentioned below, Dendrocalamus (the genus) strictus (the species within the genus), seems more likely in the word structure sense. Scientific plant FAMILY names end in "--acea", so Arundinacea is probably the name for an (the?) entire family of bamboo species. Biologist and the fourth or fifth Terry on the list,Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us Bruce,Calcutta is Bambusa Arundinacea. ---see: Fly Rods & Fly Tackle, Wells, p.112 J Parker Thanks. And Oh dear! I have another person (a bamboo expert) who saysthat Calcutta cane is Dendrocalamus strictus. What's worse, is that I findno mention of Bambusa arundinacea in my big list of types of bamboo(fromthe American Bamboo Society.) I am also informed that there is in fact an in depth study on theengineering aspects of various types of cane and I will be able to get myhands on it soon. Maybe we will find out for certain if Calcutta or Tonkinis really capable of more "power" and that the move to tonkin was more asupply problem than an engineering one. I'll keep you all posted. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 17:23:21 1996 Subject: RE: Latin name for Calcutta cane Darryl wrote:I was looking at different types of bamboo in a nursery, and I saw awonderfullycolored dark purple to black bamboo. The culms were about 8 feet highand about an inch in diameter. The plant was fairly expensive, but it got meto wondering... Has anybody tried any of the hundreds of different typesofbamboo that is available? In the sub to tropical far east there is avery commonbamboo that is "logged" The culms are over 40 feet long and 8 to 10inches indiameter. I believe it is called something like Moso bamboo. I heardthat there aremany many uses for this bamboo. Construction, furniture, broken downinto paperpulp, boats, etc. Has anybody ever tried this bamboo in a flyrod? Lester Lambuth wrote an article in 1940 on the various bamboos, primarily Tonkin (Tea-stick). In the article he names Calcutta (Dendrocalamus Strictus) as growing to 30-60 feet and 2-4" in diameter.Also that it has been planted experimentally in the US. Perhaps this is the Louisiana cane that Gene Edwards used in a few rods. I've seen one ofthese rods, mixed Tonkin and Louisiana, and couldn't find a jump. But the Louisiana had an unpleasant grayish cast(color).Peak Chuck bamboo from the Hoh Uen district of Kwantung Provinceis, according to Lambuth, a good tonkin substitute.Lastly, he mentions the Giant Timber Bamboo (Phyllostachys Bambusoides), also known as the Japanese Timber Bamboo. This has someold established groves in the U.S. Height 40-70', 3-5" in diameter. Maybe this is the Louisiana? The other Reed Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 21:19:04 1996 Subject: Re: Latin name for Calcutta cane Arundinaria amabilis. That a lot of a's. Does any one have the Latin name for Calcutta cane? I've been lookingaround and haven't been able to find it. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 23 23:40:36 1996 Subject: Re: Latin name for Calcutta cane jsBond wrote: Arundinaria amabilis. That a lot of a's. Does any one have the Latin name for Calcutta cane? I've been lookingaround and haven't been able to find it. amabilis is Tonkin cane, but you *do* win this consolation prize! (Brucepulls the cover off a steaming bowl of bamboo shoots) Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 07:25:00 1996 Subject: rebuilding. I want to remove the old reel seat and handle from a bamboo rod. The reel seat looks like plastic so I don't think I can use much heat. Also can I use heat to loosen the old handle without affecting the glue holding the blank together? Suggestions? Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 09:38:10 1996 Subject: Re: rebuilding. One of those Terry's seez... :-) I want to remove the old reel seat and handle from a bamboo rod. Thereel seat looks like plastic so I don't think I can use much heat. Also can I use heat to loosen the old handle without affecting the glue holding the blank together? Suggestions? Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl. I would guess (and I would like emphasize the *guess* part :-) your bestbet for the cork grip would be to just cut most of it off and use asanding block to get the rest off. I won't even take a guess about the reelseat... Mike Biondo-St. Louis, MO from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 09:59:19 1996 Subject: Re: rebuilding. I want to remove the old reel seat and handle from a bamboo rod. Thereelseat looks like plastic so I don't think I can use much heat. Also can Iuse heat to loosen the old handle without affecting the glue holding theblank together?=I would guess (and I would like emphasize the *guess* part :-) your best=bet for the cork grip would be to just cut most of it off and use a=sanding block to get the rest off. =I won't even take a guess about the reelseat... Thanks, Mike. I was afraid of that. Oh well, I can use the scrap cork as filler. The original section is 46 1/5" long. I plan to make a three piece seven foot rod so I think I may just lop the reel seat off. Fla. TerryTerry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 10:06:13 1996 Subject: RE: rebuilding. : Re: rebuilding. One of those Terry's seez... :-) I want to remove the old reel seat and handle from a bamboo rod. Thereel seat looks like plastic so I don't think I can use much heat. Also can I use heat to loosen the old handle without affecting the glue holding the blank together? Suggestions? Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl. I would guess (and I would like emphasize the *guess* part :-) yourbestbet for the cork grip would be to just cut most of it off and use asanding block to get the rest off. I won't even take a guess about the reelseat... Mike Biondo-St. Louis, MO I rebuilt a graphite rod a few years ago, and yes, Mike is right aboutthe handle. There is no way to save a handle to use over again.The reel seat I replaced was wood, the only way I could get it offwas with a heat gun. Fortunately it was glued on with what lookedlike Pliobond or some kind of contact cement and it came off easily.The reel seat still looks good enough to use over again. To properly reinstall a new handle you have to take off the guides on the handle section. If you don't want to take off the guides then you will have to install the handle from the large end of the blank. Thebore on the front of the handle will be too big. You can get awaywith that if you plan on using a big enough winding check to hidethe gap, and you will have to fill the space with some kind of tape.Some people use masking tape, some use fiberglass tape frominterior wall construction, the type of tape isn't too critical. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 10:41:10 1996 Subject: RE: rebuilding. =I rebuilt a graphite rod a few years ago, and yes, Mike is right about=the handle.=The reel seat I replaced was wood, the only way I could get it off=was with a heat gun. I think the real seat will be sacrifice. =To properly reinstall a new handle you have to take off the guides on=the handle section. If you don't want to take off the guides then you=will have to install the handle from the large end of the blank. The=bore on the front of the handle will be too big. You can get away=with that if you plan on using a big enough winding check to hide=the gap, and you will have to fill the space with some kind of tape.=Some people use masking tape, some use fiberglass tape from=interior wall construction, the type of tape isn't too critical. Thanks for the info.I've got a new handle and will be removing the guides. (I think I'll go all the way to bare wood, that way I can refinish it to my liking.) Have you installed a handle on a swell but bamboo rod? I've installed handles on glass and graphite and on a mid section that I used as a the but end for a 6ft. rod I built from scraps. I'm worried about getting the correct fit on six sided bamboo vs. round glass and graphite. (I just came close in size on the six footer, then forced it in place.) Fla. TerryTerry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 11:05:27 1996 Subject: RE: rebuilding. Have you installed a handle on a swell but bamboo rod? I've installed handles on glass and graphite and on a mid section that I used as a thebut end for a 6ft. rod I built from scraps. I'm worried about getting the correct fit on six sided bamboo vs. round glass and graphite. (I justcame close in size on the six footer, then forced it in place.) I made one swelled butt Garrison taper rod about ten months ago.Nothing special about fitting the handle, get it close with a roundfile and push it down to the final position. It doesn't have to betoo tight, it's easier to position that way. Some people over borethe handle and fill the gap with tape. The choice is yours. Depending on what you want to use for a winding check, ifrubber is ok, then look at winding checks for salt water rods.They are so big you can undoubtedly find one to fit a swelledbutt handle.Slight problem with the reel seat wood insert on a swelled buttrod. Sometimes the rod butt is bigger than the I.D. of the wood.I just drilled out the wood insert to fit, used masking tape to fillthe gap. Again, this part doesn't have to be a critical fit. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 11:21:15 1996 Subject: RE: rebuilding. ----------= It doesn't have to be too tight, it's easier to position that way. ... =Slight problem with the reel seat wood insert on a swelled butt=rod. Sometimes the rod butt is bigger than the I.D. of the wood.... =Darryl Hayashida Thanks. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 12:24:25 1996 Subject: Re: rebuilding. The original section is 46 1/5" long. I plan to make a three piece seven foot rod so I think I may just lop the reel seat off. Terry,If you're gonna cut it off anyway, why not experiment a little? If you can pry the butt cap off you might try scoring the plastic with a table saw. After you get the cork off you'll know how thick the plastic seat is, so set the blade for a little less than that, wrap with lots of tape where the cork was, and gingerly run the reel seat over the saw. I've never done this, so I have no idea whether it'll work. Or you could use a radial arm saw. A router could also work if you had a bit that was as shallow as or shallower than the thickness of the plastic. Or, if you're as leery of some of these tools as I am, use a triangular file, knife, chisel, etc. Let us know if you do experiment. I have one I've been thinking of taking off, too. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 14:25:32 1996 Subject: Re: rebuilding. Terry, Unless you have sliding table saw boxes, or the like, dont eventhink about running a small, round object(bakelite, no less)over a sawof any type...I've removed these type of reel seats before and I've used hand saws, and then later, stationary disk sanders to remove them.Please dont be impatient with your hands, Terry. Holy cow John. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 14:42:40 1996 Subject: Re: rebuilding. =Terry, =Unless you have sliding table saw boxes, or the like, dont even=think about running a small, round object(bakelite, no less)over a saw=of any type...I've removed these type of reel seats before and I've=used hand saws, and then later, stationary disk sanders to remove them.=Please dont be impatient with your hands, Terry Thanks.Fla. Terry(Terry Kirkpatrick)Safety Harbor, Fl. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 15:19:40 1996 Subject: Re: rebuilding. Kirkpatrick, Terry @ CLW wrote: I want to remove the old reel seat and handle from a bamboo rod. Thereelseat looks like plastic so I don't think I can use much heat. Also can Iuse heat to loosen the old handle without affecting the glue holding theblank together? Suggestions? Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl. Hi Terry, What I have done in the past is to cut the reel seat lengthwise with a small Exacto saw. Saw it down close to the blank and then split it with a screw driver. You can't reuse the reel seat, but it's better than cutting the blank. Good luck, Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 16:09:54 1996 Subject: Re: rebuilding. =Hi Terry, =What I have done in the past is to cut the reel seat lengthwise with a=small Exacto saw. Saw it down close to the blank and then split it=with a screw driver. You can't reuse the reel seat, but it's better=than cutting the blank. =Good luck, =Jonathan Clarke Hi Jonathan Sounds like a plan. I'll get to it just as soon as I get some time off for good behavior from the Mrs. Going to Ft. Desoto this weekend? Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 17:05:18 1996 Subject: wet cane I read with interest last week on the list about Paynes method of soakinghis bamboo in water for 24 hours and I decided to investigate. It is true Payne did soak the cane but it was Nellie Payne, Jim's cousin,she collected the scrap bamboo and made baskets and carpet beaters. Soaking cane is an old basketmaking trick I can remember doing it atschool,or was it reform school. Actually bamboo was soaked in water for 24 hrs prior to the phenolicimpregnation proccess. This soaking swelled the fibers making pressureimpregnation of the water soluble resins easier. It was Wes Jordan not Payne that developed the phenolic impregnationproccess for flyrods but the proccess had been in use for years in otherapplications. Regards,Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 17:26:57 1996 Subject: Stanely Plane Hello! I am just beginning to find tools for my first split cane bamboo construction from scratch. I was looking through a local tool collectors inventory and couldn't resist buying a #45 combination (reading) plane ($150) with an assortment of cutters. I was looking for a 9 1/2 like all the books I've read suggest, but this #45 looks perfect for delicate planing of splines. I was wondering if anyone has tried a #45, and if so what are the dissadvantages/advantages? Also, if anyone has the specs on this plane, please send them. I want to know the exact angle of the cutter with respect to the sole (in this case the skate). I also want to know what "V" angle to grind a cutter down to in order to use it to cut a 60 degree "V" for my final planning forms. One last thing. Do they make HOCK replacement cutters for the #45? Thanks for all the help. The tips about the ovens and binders have been a great help! Paul from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 17:28:22 1996 Subject: Re: simple tapers Hank Purists please close eyes while reading. Contains computer related language. The wks tapers program at the ftp site will convert to Excel and run on your mac..I can't find the E-mail of it's origins however.. I think it's based on Garrison tapers?? Bruce probably knows.. Several of us are busy trying to re-produce Wayne's Hexrod prodgram for Excel.. should be available in a few weeks..or the BBQ..or.. anyway we're working on it. I've found that any excel for dos will run on the mac. Jerry Hi Jerry,tried to mail you earlier but could not. I would like one question answered from you computer kids, Does any of the computer programs take into account the moisture contentandtemper of the bamboo? unless this is addressed nothing will make sense. regards,Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 18:20:13 1996 Subject: Re: rebuilding. Terry,A cheap tapered reamer for the new cork grip can be made by coating an old butt or mid section with glue (PVA will do) and then rolling it in the coarse grinding grit available in craft stores for stone polishing. This gives very good control of the inside diameter, even with swelled butts.Good luck.Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 18:39:49 1996 Subject: Moisture Hi Terry ( This is a resend.. I must have a mail glitch also) On a serious note, I'm working from a programatic sense here.. I don'tknow ( which makes your point ) if there is any imperical data whichcould enter Wayne's calculations or anyone's either way? Good questionshowever.. If you have any swag i'd love to see how they work into theequations and let you test them against you hueristic knowledge. SinceWayne documents his tempering techniques and views on humidity,relativeto the process, I'd have to assume ( I know) that those values arenominal given the location of the builder. Maybe not.. Need more input.. Peace Jerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 18:41:15 1996 Subject: more wet cane Hands up those of you using the Garrison time/temp formula on your cane?I feel this is an obvious typo, you could not dry a piece of wet paper in 7mins. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 19:42:05 1996 Subject: Re: Moisture Hi Terry ( This is a resend.. I must have a mail glitch also) On a serious note, I'm working from a programatic sense here.. I don'tknow ( which makes your point ) if there is any imperical data whichcould enter Wayne's calculations or anyone's either way? Good questionshowever.. If you have any swag i'd love to see how they work into theequations and let you test them against you hueristic knowledge. SinceWayne documents his tempering techniques and views on humidity,relativeto the process, I'd have to assume ( I know) that those values arenominal given the location of the builder. Maybe not.. Need more input.. Peace Jerry Gerry,I have not read the Cats book but if he adheres to the garrison time/tempformula a rod will be soft and prone to set. The real art of a a fine rod isnot just in the tapers. Payne rods are arguably the finest rods ever built yet they have not beensuccessfuly duplicated even though you cannot have a secret taper.Thesecretis elswhere. Groovy Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 19:53:08 1996 Subject: Ovens and temp accuracy Lately there has been much mail about moisture - time & temperaturebutanother umbrella is the accuracy of the thermastatic controls. I have andstill do recommend an electric oven thermostat - some may say it isn'taccurate enough. But a more inportant consideration about thermostats isthatthey need to be fine tuned to the application. Most thermostats(perhapsall)have anticipater built into them. On the oven thermostats I use it is alittle screw in the stem - from the factory it is paint sealed but in allcases it needs to be set for the application. Once I have built an oven Ialways run it up to temperature and check the inside temperature with adigital pyrometer - a household cooking thermometer if used should becheckedin a pan of boiling water (212 F). With that in place now which tempaturetouse?I use 375 deg for 7 minutes for both butts and tips. I have played withdifferent times and I know that if you are using an accurate 375carbonizingwill occur at 12 minutes. The best is to try different times - weighingwitha grain scale - once you stop losing weight stop - but try it with severalbundles and pick the longest time period to weight lose.I also know of makers that supposedly use 325 deg for 24 hours. Ipersonallydon't know if that works or not.As far as trying to account for different moisture contents - I wouldrecommend trying to keep the moisture contents in as close a window aspossible. To detect if you are picking up moisture use a test piece - heattreat it along with the bundled strips - weigh it asap - and keep it withthese parts all the time checking its weight occassionally - if you gainweight you have gained moisture.Any variations in moisture content - adequate power fiber depth - usingadifferent glue - the accuracy of planning can all very the action of a rod.So the closer you can maintain the more accurately you can predict the outcome of existing and new tapers. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 20:30:16 1996 Subject: Re: Stanely Plane At 16:17 4/24/96 -0600, you wrote: Hello! I am just beginning to find tools for my first split cane bamboo construction from scratch. I was looking through a local tool collectors inventory and couldn't resist buying a #45 combination (reading) plane ($150) with an assortment of cutters. I was looking for a 9 1/2 like all the books I've read suggest, but this #45 looks perfect for delicate planing of splines. I was wondering if anyone has tried a #45, and if so what arethe dissadvantages/advantages? Also, if anyone has the specs on this plane, please send them. I want to know the exact angle of the cutter with respect to the sole (in this case the skate). I also want to know what "V" angle to grind a cutter down to in order to use it to cut a 60 degree "V" for my final planning forms. One last thing. Do they make HOCK replacement cutters for the #45? Thanks for all the help. The tips about the ovens and binders have been a great help! Paul Paul,Please read Patrick Leach's article "Stanley Blood & Gore" found athttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/lore.html http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/tools.htmlI REPEAT!!!! Please read Patrick Leach's article.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 20:38:17 1996 Subject: Re: Moisture In a message dated 96-04-24 20:35:48 EDT, you write: prone to set Right problem wrong source. The concensus on why Mr. Garrisons rods takesets(especially the butt sections) is the staggerring method he used. Withoutthenodes being exactly opposite each other (2 - 2 - 2 staggering) the naturaltensions within the strips cannot neutralize each other. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 21:03:08 1996 Subject: Re: Moisture In a message dated 96-04-24 20:35:48 EDT, you write: prone to set Right problem wrong source. The concensus on why Mr. Garrisons rodstake sets(especially the butt sections) is the staggerring method he used. Withoutthenodes being exactly opposite each other (2 - 2 - 2 staggering) the naturaltensions within the strips cannot neutralize each other. Wayne Wayne,Many fine rods (Leonards, Paynes, Edwards, etc.) are not known for taking sets, yet these makers used either 3 over 3 or spiral. According to your theory, these rods should be in serious trouble.A theory I have heard advanced for sets is that the rods have a decided "spine", "hop", "jump", whatever you want to call it. If the builders trashed all joints which exhibited this tendency (it has been said), the problem of sets would disappear. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 21:03:33 1996 Subject: Re: Ovens and temp accuracy Lately there has been much mail about moisture - time & temperaturebutanother umbrella is the accuracy of the thermastatic controls. I have andstill do recommend an electric oven thermostat - some may say it isn'taccurate enough. But a more inportant consideration about thermostats isthatthey need to be fine tuned to the application. Most thermostats(perhapsall)have anticipater built into them. On the oven thermostats I use it is alittle screw in the stem - from the factory it is paint sealed but in allcases it needs to be set for the application. Once I have built an oven Ialways run it up to temperature and check the inside temperature with adigital pyrometer - a household cooking thermometer if used should becheckedin a pan of boiling water (212 F). With that in place now which tempaturetouse?I use 375 deg for 7 minutes for both butts and tips. I have played withdifferent times and I know that if you are using an accurate 375carbonizingwill occur at 12 minutes. The best is to try different times - weighingwitha grain scale - once you stop losing weight stop - but try it with severalbundles and pick the longest time period to weight lose.I also know of makers that supposedly use 325 deg for 24 hours. Ipersonallydon't know if that works or not.As far as trying to account for different moisture contents - I wouldrecommend trying to keep the moisture contents in as close a window aspossible. To detect if you are picking up moisture use a test piece - heattreat it along with the bundled strips - weigh it asap - and keep it withthese parts all the time checking its weight occassionally - if you gainweight you have gained moisture.Any variations in moisture content - adequate power fiber depth -using adifferent glue - the accuracy of planning can all very the action of a rod.So the closer you can maintain the more accurately you can predict theoutcome of existing and new tapers. Wayne Hi,I happen to use a proportional controller that helps prevent largeovershoots that are a problem with simple on/off types. Not that I thinkitsnecessary I just happened to get one for nothing. About 8 years ago I visited a collector in Conn. just to handle and admire astaggering collection of classic bamboo rods. They had all been fished butwere all straight and most were 40+ yrs old A couple of years ago I attended a Planing form gathering in P.A. All therods that were brought in were built to the Garrison formula and they alllooked like the hind leg of a dog. Was it the the humidity in the building?I was not sure, it was a hot weekend. The only straight rod there was ausedBob Summers rod. I came to the conclusion that perhaps Garrison did not tell the whole storyor mistakes were made in the transcription of his notes. I knew that I was having trouble keeping some rods straight and I couldseemost other builders were in the same boat. Since that visit I have been conducting experiments with time/tempvariations and different finishes and I now believe that these, besides ahalf decent taperis the key to a rod that lasts. Regards,Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 21:18:37 1996 Subject: Re: Moisture In a message dated 96-04-24 20:35:48 EDT, you write: prone to set Right problem wrong source. The concensus on why Mr. Garrisons rodstake sets(especially the butt sections) is the staggerring method he used. Withoutthenodes being exactly opposite each other (2 - 2 - 2 staggering) thenaturaltensions within the strips cannot neutralize each other. Wayne Wayne,Many fine rods (Leonards, Paynes, Edwards, etc.) are not known for taking sets, yet these makers used either 3 over 3 or spiral. According to your theory, these rods should be in serious trouble.A theory I have heard advanced for sets is that the rods have a decided "spine", "hop", "jump", whatever you want to call it. If the builders trashed all joints which exhibited this tendency (it has been said), the problem of sets would disappear. Reed Good Point Reed, "Bamboo has a memory", is how Bob Taylor explains it. And I agree with that this is perhaps why even Payne sawed the strips out. Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 22:44:14 1996 Subject: whoops I just finished a five and a half foot 2 pc. 2-3#. I wanted to put a 2/0snake below the tip top followed by 1/0's and then a 1 before the ferrule. Idiscovered that I was out of 2/0's so I used a 1/0 below the tip top. Atfirst it looked o.k. then not so o.k. then o.k.I put one coat of varnish on the wraps ( I put my guides on after I varnishthe blank) and decided the first 1/0 has to go. Since this is such a literod I am now concerned about trying to remove the guide withoutdestroyingthe tip. Any suggestions, or should I just leave it as is and fish it thatway. I split my cane like most guy's but would like to try sawing some stripsandbuild one rod that way. my question is, does anyone know how this isaccomplished. Also, does sawing alleviate the need for straighteningleavingone only to deal with flattening the nodes.Any suggestions would be appreciated. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 24 23:04:49 1996 Subject: Different Heat Treat methods Here is a list of different heat treat methods: Ritz -180 deg for 2 hrs - cool off - then 360 deg for approx 30 min (tocolorstd) South Bend & Heddon - strips rough cut - 295 deg for 15 min - then finalpass Winchester - 320 deg 20 - 30 min Payne - after flaming - "uses 218 - 220" and cooks for hours (Quoted byGillum) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 02:07:33 1996 Subject: Split/Saw? Hi Mark,The guide question is answered in the form of a question. If the guidelooks wrong then it probably is wrong. If it needs to be replaced then whobetter to do the work than the builder? We all have had to tear into one ofour own rods at one time or another. I will admit that like surgery it canbeunpleasant but it is necessary.I have built rods both ways, I don't want to seem unresponsive but youshould give both methods a try. The slip does not have to be straightenedandthey are easier to work with. It is also not the classic/Garrison method.Please note that many of the finest rods ever built were sawn however. Iwentback to split and straighten construction. I do not believe that if due careis exercised either method really has much to do with the final quality ofthe rod.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 02:07:34 1996 Subject: Re: rebuilding. Hi Terry,The grip will have to destroyed to remove. The reelseat usually will haveto be cut off. You can cut the reelseat lenghtwise alongside the cane andpeel the remainder off.This info has probably been repeated previously. The important thing istospline the rod. Most of the less expensive production rods were notproperlysplined and the action can be improved considerably.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 02:08:53 1996 Subject: Re: Different Heat Treat methods Hi Wayne,Thanks for the info, I have always loved the color of The Heddons. I willnow have to toodle off to the shop and give it a try. A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 05:16:04 1996 Subject: Re: Different Heat Treat methods Hi Wayne,Thanks for the info, I have always loved the color of The Heddons. I willnow have to toodle off to the shop and give it a try. A.J.Thramer A.J.,Is it possible that the Heddons used ammonia in the heat treat? They certainly have that color.Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 06:12:35 1996 Subject: Split/Saw? thanks A.J., the rod was kind of an experiment derived from one of htecomp.programs and it came out rather wimpy. I was going to set it aside andmoveon to other things but the rod looked so nice I decided, what the heck. Ithought the rod would be a nice one for myself for small streams. I guessthe byword here is patience, should have waited for the mailman and the2/0's.I have never had to rebuild any rods so I was just looking for suggestions. thanks again, Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 06:32:37 1996 Subject: Re: Split/Saw? Hi Mark,The guide question is answered in the form of a question. If the guidelooks wrong then it probably is wrong. If it needs to be replaced then whobetter to do the work than the builder? We all have had to tear into one ofour own rods at one time or another. I will admit that like surgery it canbeunpleasant but it is necessary.I have built rods both ways, I don't want to seem unresponsive but youshould give both methods a try. The slip does not have to be straightenedandthey are easier to work with. It is also not the classic/Garrison method.Please note that many of the finest rods ever built were sawn however. Iwentback to split and straighten construction. I do not believe that if due careis exercised either method really has much to do with the final quality ofthe rod.A.J.Thramer Thanks A.J., the rod was kind of an experiment derived from one of thecomp. programs and it came out rather wimpy. I was going to set it asideandmove on to other things but the rod looked so nice I decided, what theheck.I thought the rod would be a nice one for myself on small streams. I guessthe byword here is patience, should have waited for the mailman and the2/0's.I have never had to rebuild any rods so I was just looking for suggestions. Thanks again, Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 07:00:20 1996 Subject: Re: Split/Saw? Mark -I plotted the numbers and your rod will be a bit soft but as I saidearlier I think it would be great for brook trout. I see a mention of a 2/0guide - which brings up the discussion of which is better - some makersprefer to go with a little larger guides - claiming the line shoots better.The marching order would go something like (1) 1/0 (2) 1 (3) 2 with a #8stripper. This goes back to the arguments between guides for silk and themodern lines. As you will discover there are different views onpracticallyevery stage of making a rod. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 07:20:09 1996 Subject: Cane rod for sale I would like to sell. This was made for me by a well known British rod maker and I haveused it about 2 hours total as I have another one similar I prefer a bit more. The rod is #5 weight 8 1/2 foot 3 piece 2 tip, with bag and heavy wall aluminum tube. The reel seatis Strubel NS down locker on olive wood. Color of cane is light, tempered but nonoticeable flaming. It is about Hardy color. It has lovely varnish .Wraps are dark green silk, notipping, ferrules probably Baily Wood oxidized, guides Perfection bright chrome. The striperis a largish Fuji ceramic. This is a high quality rod with medium fast action which likesonly a 5 DT as far as I can see. It weighs 4 3/4 oz on my postal scale. I had it built as ageneral purpose rod with a sturdy tip for streamers (.070). The rod was built by MarcusWarwick, whom I have known as a rod maker for a bout 20 years and he has a good following inEngland. It is his "sniper" model. I would like 635.00 for it and would ship on 3 day approvalwith a cashier's check or postal money order. I think Reed cast it at the boo- fest and canvouch for it. e-mail johannes@scribes.english.uiuc.edu or call me at 217-344-8532.John Friedman from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 07:27:35 1996 Subject: Snake Guides and Strippers. = I see a mention of a 2/0=guide - which brings up the discussion of which is better - some makers=prefer to go with a little larger guides - claiming the line shoots better.=The marching order would go something like (1) 1/0 (2) 1 (3) 2 with a #8=stripper.=Wayne Wayne, One of those peaces of information that's escaped me for all theses years is:How are snake guides and stripper guides measured? In the past, I've just gone my local supplier and said, "give me some of Those and one or two of These." When I've ordered Mail Order, I've gotten full sets. This has worked in the past, but two nights ago I dropped a snake guide on the work room floor and it disappeared. I didn't have anything in the parts box to replace it, so I was left with taking a rod section to my supplier to try and match it up or order a whole new set. Besides, I'd like to know. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 07:32:34 1996 Subject: Re: rebuilding. A cheap tapered reamer for the new cork grip can be made by coating=an old butt or mid section with glue (PVA will do) and then rolling it in=the coarse grinding grit available in craft stores for stone polishing. This=gives very good control of the inside diameter, even with swelled butts.= Good luck.=Reed Curry=rcurry@jlc.net Thanks for the tip. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 07:37:58 1996 Subject: Re: Split/Saw? Mark -I plotted the numbers and your rod will be a bit soft but as I saidearlier I think it would be great for brook trout. I see a mention of a 2/0guide - which brings up the discussion of which is better - some makersprefer to go with a little larger guides - claiming the line shoots better.The marching order would go something like (1) 1/0 (2) 1 (3) 2 with a #8stripper. This goes back to the arguments between guides for silk and themodern lines. As you will discover there are different views onpracticallyevery stage of making a rod. Wayne Thanks Wayne as usual you are always helpful, thanks for checking thenumbers. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 08:37:34 1996 Subject: Re: Snake Guides and Strippers. = I see a mention of a 2/0=guide - which brings up the discussion of which is better - some makers=prefer to go with a little larger guides - claiming the line shoots better.=The marching order would go something like (1) 1/0 (2) 1 (3) 2 with a#8=stripper.=Wayne Wayne, One of those peaces of information that's escaped me for all theses years is:How are snake guides and stripper guides measured? In the past, I've just gone my local supplier and said, "give me some of Those and one or two of These." When I've ordered Mail Order, I've gotten full sets. This has worked in the past, but two nights ago I dropped a snake guide on the work room floor and it disappeared. I didn't have anything in the parts box to replace it, so I was left with taking a rod section to my supplier to try and match it up or order a whole new set. Besides, I'd like to know. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu Hi terry K.I think it is as Wayne says, up to the discretion of the builder as to size.I know that some builders are going to the larger sizes for the reasonstated by Wayne.With cane I think it is "what's traditional" and what is aestheticallypleasing to the eye. I have the same problem sorting sizes sometimes (even when they come inseperate packages) I usually set them all on two sided tape, side by sideand eye ball them first. It seems that even when I get the 1/0's, 2/0's and3/o's sorted some seem to look a tab bit over or under size-- this seems alittle more aapparent after wrapping, when you lay the tips side by side. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 08:59:36 1996 Subject: Re: Snake Guides and Strippers. Yes there are measurements for both snakes and strippers. Snake guidesare bywire size and by height of hoop however that can vary by manufacturer.Strippers should be measured by inside dimension - that can vary as well.There is a chart of snake guide dimensions in my book. I'm atwork(bummer) orI could post chart. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 09:39:11 1996 Subject: Re: Different Heat Treat methods Wayne shares... Here is a list of different heat treat methods: Ritz -180 deg for 2 hrs - cool off - then 360 deg for approx 30 min (tocolorstd) South Bend & Heddon - strips rough cut - 295 deg for 15 min - then finalpass Winchester - 320 deg 20 - 30 min Payne - after flaming - "uses 218 - 220" and cooks for hours (Quoted byGillum) I just want to say Thanks for sharing this information Wayne!!! This is one of the things I think is great about this list, and it'smembers...the willingness to share information. I've read most ofwhat I could find on bamboo rodmaking, and I've never seen any of thethe above. It's information like this that I feel furthers the art Thanks again Wayne for sharing the secrets... Mike - wishing he had some 'secrets' to share - Biondo :-)St. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 09:39:52 1996 Subject: Re: Snake Guides and Strippers. =Yes there are measurements for both snakes and strippers. Snake guidesare by=wire size and by height of hoop however that can vary by manufacturer.=Strippers should be measured by inside dimension - that can vary as well.=There is a chart of snake guide dimensions in my book. I'm atwork(bummer) or=I could post chart.==Wayne So you're the Wayne that wrote the book? If It's the same one I have at home, I'll take a look. I've read through it once and now go back for specific information if I remember seeing it in there.... Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 10:13:46 1996 Subject: Re: whoops Mark Brown seez... I split my cane like most guy's but would like to try sawing some stripsandbuild one rod that way. my question is, does anyone know how this isaccomplished. Also, does sawing alleviate the need for straighteningleavingone only to deal with flattening the nodes.Any suggestions would be appreciated. I think it was in the _Wise Fisherman's Encyclopedia_, Stoner was talkingabout sawing strips, and showed a neat little jig for sawing them. What I thought was really neat about his process was that the sawblade was raised just high enough to get through the wall of theculm, but still leaving the diaphragms in tact, thereby holding allthe sawed pieces together until all the sawing was done. Pretty slick... Mike - the old saw - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 12:07:06 1996 Subject: Re: simple tapers Original Terry,=I would like one question answered from you computer kids,==Does any of the computer programs take into account the moisturecontent and=temper of the bamboo? unless this is addressed nothing will make sense.==regards,=Terry Ackland=How do you figure out your tapers? Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 12:57:13 1996 Subject: Re: Stanely Plane Paul writes: I am just beginning to find tools for my first split cane bamboo construction from scratch. I was looking through a local tool collectors inventory and couldn't resist buying a #45 combination (reading) plane ($150) with an assortment of cutters. I was looking for a 9 1/2 like all the books I've read suggest, but this #45 looks perfect for delicate planing of splines. Paul The #45, while a fine plane, is not suitable for planing bamboo, as it is a special-purpose combination plane more suited to the task of making mouldings. While it might be *possible* touse this plane, it would certainly be much less satisfactoryin use than a well-tuned 9-1/2 with a sharp (Sharp, SHARP) iron. If you like it, buy it. But get a 9-1/2 for the cane. -Phil Plumbo from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 14:43:50 1996 Subject: old rods Let me preface by saying I know virtually nothing about cane rod building at this point, but I have a question none the less. If a well built rod has been idle for many years, could this have a positive affect as far as curing is concerned. It wasn't uncommon for longbow makers to leavestaves to cure for 20 or 30 years before shaving them into a bow. It seems an old rod that has continued curing for 50 or 60 years, even though it has been glued up and finished, might benefit from the aging process. Another question, how old is the cane, from the time it was cut until you turn it into a rod? Just for my own curiosity. Chris The following was included as an attachement. Please use UUDECODEto retrieve it. The original file name was 'ATTRIBS.BND'. begin 666 ATTRIBS.BNDM0F5Y;VYD(%!A8VME9"!!='1R:6)U=&5S`$%45%))*```````;VQD("!R;V1SM````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````M`$-(4DE35$]02$52($,@34- $3U=%3$P`````````````````````````````M``````````````````````````````````!+834Y*VIR=U1L````````````M````````0F5Y;VYD(%!R;W!R:65T87)Y($1A=&$:`````!$`````````!``BM`P``````````````````````````5&5X='\"3&5T(&UE('!R969A8V4@8GD@M2!Y96%R65A65A2!O=VX@8W5R:6]S:71Y+@H*0VAR:7,@G0`#`'\"E@`!M``$````#``$``0`!`'\"````````./\```````"0`0``````````35,@4V%NMOriginal Terry,=I would like one question answered from you computer kids,==Does any of the computer programs take into account the moisturecontent and=temper of the bamboo? unless this is addressed nothing will makesense.==regards,=Terry Ackland=How do you figure out your tapers? Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu Terry, I started building garrison tapers like everyone else using the same heattreatment, same everything. It did not take too many rods before I starteddeveloping my own tapers and equipment. I took the trouble to ask seniorflyfishermen who fished bamboo, I handled a few classic rods and took itfromthere. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to put together a rod despite whatyou read on this list. I keep my Garrisons forms and for some strange reason his nodestaggeringthe rest I have discarded, developing my own equipment and proccesses. The book is a good introduction, there are easier ways to build bambooflyrods. I think it was Sam Carlson who said, "Garrison made rodbuildingsodifficult for himself, if it was that difficult there would be no bamboorods". I have been building rods without getting involved with with any of thebuilding groups and newsletters and I believe it has been very beneficial. Ithink that being on a list like this is OK for your first couple of rods butif your not careful you get sucked in to believing that there is only oneway to build a flyrod. Right from the start I decided to build all my own fittings which I do but Regards,Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 16:42:24 1996 Subject: Re: whoops Mark Brown seez... I split my cane like most guy's but would like to try sawing some stripsandbuild one rod that way. my question is, does anyone know how this isaccomplished. Also, does sawing alleviate the need for straighteningleavingone only to deal with flattening the nodes.Any suggestions would be appreciated. I think it was in the _Wise Fisherman's Encyclopedia_, Stoner wastalkingabout sawing strips, and showed a neat little jig for sawing them. What I thought was really neat about his process was that the sawblade was raised just high enough to get through the wall of theculm, but still leaving the diaphragms in tact, thereby holding allthe sawed pieces together until all the sawing was done. Pretty slick... Mike - the old saw - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. .Thanks mike, I have been wanting to get a copy of that book, now I will.Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 19:02:55 1996 Subject: Stress Factors In my continuing quest to characterize rod tapers, I have reverse calculated the Garrison stress formula. Instead of using stress to derive diameter, I started with diameter, and using the weight of 50 feet of 4 wt line and a tip impact factor of 2.5, I calculated thestresses generated at each inch of the action length of each taper. One taper I used was the 7 ft. 4 wt. Cattanach taper that I like so much. Theother was the equivalent Garrison taper. The stresses calculated seemed in line with what the Garrisonbook suggested, about 200,000 max, and after looking at the stressgraphs, they seemed to make sense. The stresses on the Cattanach taper climbed quickly from the tip to 12 inches, dropped off sharply to thirty inches, stayed level until48 inches, then took a slight bump up, then dropped off to very low from 65 to 84 inches. The stresses in the Garrison taper rose moderately to 48 inches and declined at about the same rate as the rise all the way into the handle. My interpretation of stress factors is that a high stress means that therodis bending more, and a low stress means it is bending less. The way these two rods cast shows the stress graph's characteristics.the Cattanach taper is what I would call a fast action rod, with most ofthe action up near the tip. The Garrison rod is what I would call slow,with the flex going all the way down to the handle. Now, if I can find the tapers for a famous makers rod such as Payneor Dickerson and put them into my spreadsheet, I might be able to seewhat they were doing in their taper designs. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 20:31:16 1996 Subject: Re: Stress Factors The taper in Waynes's book on page 227 7'6" is a Paul Young Perfection, Darryl. I also have some others, Payne Parabolic, Payne 100, Payne 98. I knew that they were the same taper because I was able to run stress curves on both. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 25 21:18:25 1996 Subject: Re: Stress Factors Darryl -The tip impact factor of 2.5 might be a bit high for a #4 - but tocontinue - now use the stress numbers you just derived and apply them toatip factor of say 1.75(approx #3 for the 2.5 for a #4). This will give youthe dimensions for a #3. Or use (1.3 for a #2). If you want a 3 piece rodsimply stick in the ferrule moments as needed.Getting original rod tapers can be a different thing - kinda likebaseball cards as a kid. I know of some that have even bought veryexpensivesrods just to put a set of calipers to them. For finish thickness a goodfigure is .004"-.005" (.002"-.0025" per flat) Good LuckWayne PS - Some of the list have made it to the stream already - but here inMichigan this is the opening weekend (they are forecasting snow -it won'tbethe first time) - fishing will be slow but it is a traditional thing (cabinhopping - polishing boats - stretching leaders) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 26 02:27:57 1996 Subject: Re: Different Heat Treat methods Hi Reed,I don't believe so. The color of the Heddons was too light and had a uniquegolden cast to it vs. the tobacco brown of the Grangers.A.J. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 26 02:28:30 1996 Subject: Re: Stress Factors Hi Darryl,NOW your getting the idea. If you can transfer that mental picture of howarod will act into actual bamboo within 10 - 15 rods you will havedevelopedyour own ideal of what a rod action should be. Somewhere in that time itwillCLICK and you will look at a taper and adjust accordingly. No longer will itbe a surprise when the rod does exactly what you wanted it to do. I willleave you to find your own leap of intuition. I must say this is most exciting to see a builder make the jump from coldnumbers to an organic taper.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 26 06:15:47 1996 Subject: Salmon Rod I was recently introduced to a gentleman in town who purchased a salmonrodat a garage sale for (well) under $100. afew weeks later he took the roddown to the flyfishing museum in Manchester, Vermont. They looked at therodand placed a value on it of $8,000.I friend of mine and I went to see the rod last week. The rod is a Hardy, 3pc.11' built 1936-37 (according to Manchester). I measured the rod andfoundit to be very accurate across all three flats the intire length of the rod.The serian no. is E64335, the wraps are burgundy, the ferrule plugs arewoodand cork. The tip top and stripper appear to be clear agate?There are also interval wraps spaced at one inch the intire length of therod . the rod is in almost perfect shape and if it was fished it was notfished very much.I checked with a dealer whom I thought might be able to verifyManchester'sapprasial. The dealer felt the rod was worth at best--$400. His disclaimerwas,"unless this rod is something very rare, unique or special that themuseum spotted" he went no to say, "They have seen it i haven't, so it ishard to say whose evaluation is realistic".I told the fellow who owns the rod that I have KNOW IDEA what the valuemight be . Anyone out there have any ideas? thanks Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 26 07:40:15 1996 Subject: Re: Salmon Rod Mark: having not seen the I would have to go along with the dealer youwrote of. The rod would have a value of less than $400. I have not seen along Hardy rod go for over $400.Clark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. Street.Zion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext. 270c-davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 26 08:01:05 1996 Subject: Re: Salmon Rod Mark: having not seen the I would have to go along with the dealer youwrote of. The rod would have a value of less than $400. I have not seen along Hardy rod go for over $400.Clark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. Street.Zion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext. 270c-davis@zbths.k12.il.us Thanks Clark, the $8,ooo sounded a little strong to me also.Question, doyou fish the Spring Creeks up around Coon Valley,Wisconsin? Page 40,41Wiscon Gazetteer. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 26 09:25:33 1996 Subject: PAul YOung PAra-17 Ron BArch, a cane fly-rod maker in HAstings Michigan, asked me to put out a request for information or impressions any of you may have on the Paul Young PARA-17 taper. Please send responses to me. Charlie Butter from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 26 13:13:39 1996 Subject: Coon Valley Mark: I dont fish that area, I do most of my trout fishing in NorthernMichigan, I fish for salmon/steelhead in the Kenosha/Racine area. Some ofmy friends fish that area and enjoy it alot. ClarkClark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. Street.Zion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext. 270c- davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 26 17:10:45 1996 Subject: Tapers to graph? Now that I have a Excel spreadsheet that graphs a stress curve from an existing taper, I have graphed the stress curve of threecane rods I have made and I still have access to. I am still inthe "graph it and see what it looks like" mode. I know what the rods cast like, and I can see what the graph looks like, but Idon't have a lot of examples to look at. I was wondering if anybody on this list would care to list the taper of a rod theyhave, and include a description of the action. I could then plugthe numbers in to my spreadsheet and see what the graphlooks like and compare it to the description. The descriptionsdon't need to be very long, something like "fast action" or"slow, full flex almost to the handle action" or even thetraditional dryfly or nymph action. I would like to see if Ican pick out a common factor that makes a rod fast orslow. Perhaps I can even determine why some rodscast better than others. I would like to share the spreadsheet with everyone, butI'm sure a lot of people on the list would have problemswith binary attachments. If you know you can receive attachments from MS Mail, email me directly and I'll sendit to you. The spreadsheet was created with Excel forWindows95 version 7.0 Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 26 18:02:14 1996 Subject: Re: Marketing Lets discuss it over a couple of Three Fingered Jacks at grayling.Regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 26 19:12:05 1996 Subject: Finishes I've used Daly's Profin on several rods I made up from blanks. It flows on with a foam applicator (I use the triangular bits of foam Winston uses in its shipping cartons). It is an oil based finish and the people at Daly's were very helpful on the phone. Their address is Daly's Inc., 3525 Stone Way N., Seattle, Washington, 98103. It probably isn't appropriate for a restoration because it dries clearer than spar varnish. George Boehme, a CA rodmaker turned me on to it. Has anyone else had experience, + or -, with this finish?z from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 26 20:50:17 1996 Subject: Re: Salmon Rod I was recently introduced to a gentleman in town who purchased a salmonrodat a garage sale for (well) under $100. afew weeks later he took the roddown to the flyfishing museum in Manchester, Vermont. They looked atthe rodand placed a value on it of $8,000.I friend of mine and I went to see the rod last week. The rod is a Hardy, 3pc.11' built 1936-37 (according to Manchester). I measured the rod andfoundit to be very accurate across all three flats the intire length of the rod.The serian no. is E64335, the wraps are burgundy, the ferrule plugs arewoodand cork. The tip top and stripper appear to be clear agate?There are also interval wraps spaced at one inch the intire length of therod . the rod is in almost perfect shape and if it was fished it was notfished very much.I checked with a dealer whom I thought might be able to verifyManchester'sapprasial. The dealer felt the rod was worth at best--$400. Hisdisclaimerwas,"unless this rod is something very rare, unique or special that themuseum spotted" he went no to say, "They have seen it i haven't, so it ishard to say whose evaluation is realistic".I told the fellow who owns the rod that I have KNOW IDEA what the valuemight be . Anyone out there have any ideas? thanks Mark Mark Hi, Hardy in London has records of all the rods they have made, give them theser.no. and they will give you the information and even help withevaluation.Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 27 08:17:30 1996 Subject: Re: Salmon Rod I was recently introduced to a gentleman in town who purchased asalmon rodat a garage sale for (well) under $100. afew weeks later he took the roddown to the flyfishing museum in Manchester, Vermont. They looked atthe rodand placed a value on it of $8,000.I friend of mine and I went to see the rod last week. The rod is a Hardy,3pc.11' built 1936-37 (according to Manchester). I measured the rod andfoundit to be very accurate across all three flats the intire length of the rod.The serian no. is E64335, the wraps are burgundy, the ferrule plugs arewoodand cork. The tip top and stripper appear to be clear agate?There are also interval wraps spaced at one inch the intire length of therod . the rod is in almost perfect shape and if it was fished it was notfished very much.I checked with a dealer whom I thought might be able to verifyManchester'sapprasial. The dealer felt the rod was worth at best--$400. Hisdisclaimerwas,"unless this rod is something very rare, unique or special that themuseum spotted" he went no to say, "They have seen it i haven't, so it ishard to say whose evaluation is realistic".I told the fellow who owns the rod that I have KNOW IDEA what the valuemight be . Anyone out there have any ideas? thanks Mark Mark Hi, Hardy in London has records of all the rods they have made, give them theser.no. and they will give you the information and even help withevaluation.Terry Hello Terry, Manchester did give this fellow the address for Hardy', London. Your right,I think that would be the best route for this fellow to follow. When I wasgoing back and forth to London, I used to stop by Hardy's and Farlow's onPall Mall it was interesting. Thanks for sending the info on the gathering.Might head 1 1/2 north of here this afternoon try a small stream I know of(I should be working on rods) Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 27 10:00:53 1996 Subject: Re: Tapers to graph? I would be really glad if you could send your spreadsheet to me./Mikael from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 27 15:20:02 1996 Subject: Re: Salmon Rod I was recently introduced to a gentleman in town who purchased a salmonrodat a garage sale for (well) under $100. afew weeks later he took the roddown to the flyfishing museum in Manchester, Vermont. They looked atthe rodand placed a value on it of $8,000.I friend of mine and I went to see the rod last week. The rod is a Hardy, 3pc.11' built 1936-37 (according to Manchester). I measured the rod andfoundit to be very accurate across all three flats the intire length of the rod.The serian no. is E64335, the wraps are burgundy, the ferrule plugs arewoodand cork. The tip top and stripper appear to be clear agate?There are also interval wraps spaced at one inch the intire length of therod . the rod is in almost perfect shape and if it was fished it was notfished very much.I checked with a dealer whom I thought might be able to verifyManchester'sapprasial. The dealer felt the rod was worth at best--$400. Hisdisclaimerwas,"unless this rod is something very rare, unique or special that themuseum spotted" he went no to say, "They have seen it i haven't, so it ishard to say whose evaluation is realistic".I told the fellow who owns the rod that I have KNOW IDEA what the valuemight be .Anyone out there have any ideas? thanks Mark A Hardy rod no E64335 is built in 1948. At that time there were not many11footers. Normally the name is written on it. One of them was the"Connoisseur Double Built". It is a rare rod, but $8000 is still far toomuch. $400 is closer I would say. Only the smallest rods The mica strip type and "the heat gun type as described by FrankNeuneman in the issue #20 planing form" I really like the heat gun type, Ifind it gives me much better control of temp. "especially when used inconjunction with the BOSH, infinitely variable heat gun" Hello Mark:I am in the process of building a heat-gun type "oven" as an adjunct to theMica type that I have used for several years. What do you use for a tempgage and where are they available? The type mentioned by Frank haseludedme. Anything you can do to help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks and besty regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 28 01:09:16 1996 Subject: stripper and tip guide placement I am building a couple of Loomis tournament casting blanks for the dry fly(7 wt.) and trout fly (6 wt.) games and would appreciate some input onhowto test for the placement of the first stripper guide. Clemen'srecommendsa spacing of 28" to 35" from the middle of the reel seat. He warns againstplacing the stripper too far away which will cause the line to slap theblank. If it is too close the line will supposedly choke at the firstguide. What sort of testing can be done to get the correct placement? Does ittake a slow motion video to pick up the blank slap and/or line chokingpoint? I don't think that I could detect either problem while casting. The second question deals with how far away the first guide should beplaced from the tip. In looking at commercial rods I see they place thefirst guide 4" away from the tip. What is magical about this placementthat causes it to be almost universally used whether the rod is a 2 weightor a 10 weight? With such a difference in blanks I would expect to seesome variation. Considering the maximum stress in a bent rod is typically 10" to 12"inchesaway from the tip, and then it steeply drops to zero at the tip, why isnecessary to put a couple of guides ahead of that maximum stress point? Ifyou used a first guide spacing of 5 or 5.5 inches to reduce the weight nearthe tip what problems would it cause? Any suggestions you have on the way to optimize these placements will beabig help to a novice builder. Gordon Judd There are advantages to being self-taught;Fullerton, CA the quality of instruction is not one ofjudd@cosmoslink.net them. -Ted Leeson- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 28 01:58:08 1996 Subject: Re: stripper and tip guide placement Hi Gordon,JIMINY CHRISTMAS!!! Don't use the 'G' word around here!!! Blasphemy!!!To answer your question. This is how I do my strip guide placement, Withthe rod at my waist and held comfortably I reach up with my left hand andpinch the rod at a comfortable distance up from the butt. This is where Iputthe stripper. As it works out it is usually 28-32". The tip is a high stressarea of the rod. In calculations the stress appears to be less but that isbecause a mathematical model cannot adequatly represent the stressesthere.4" is a standard spacinc with graphite but you will find bamboo builderswillvary that quite a bit depending on what they have designed the tip to do. Ihave always considered 4" to be the maximum that I would put the firstguidespacing.A.J.ThramerBamboo rod craftsman from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 28 08:37:47 1996 Subject: Re: Salmon rod value In a message dated 96-04-27 19:32:17 EDT, you write: The mica strip type and "the heat gun type as described by FrankNeuneman in the issue #20 planing form" I really like the heat gun type,Ifind it gives me much better control of temp. "especially when used inconjunction with the BOSH, infinitely variable heat gun" Hello Mark:I am in the process of building a heat-gun type "oven" as an adjunct to theMica type that I have used for several years. What do you use for a tempgage and where are they available? The type mentioned by Frank haseludedme. Anything you can do to help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks and besty regards,Richard Tyree Hello Richard,The temp. gauge I use is a COOPER digital mod. 450, temp. range -40 to450 f.it is not as fast acting as the wire type Frank uses, but I found it to beabout 1/3 the cost and it works just fine. I purchased it at a restaurantsupply store for about 29 Canadian. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 28 15:34:27 1996 Subject: Re: Salmon rod value In a message dated 96-04-28 09:30:56 EDT, you write: Hello Richard,The temp. gauge I use is a COOPER digital mod. 450, temp. range -40 to450f.it is not as fast acting as the wire type Frank uses, but I found it to beabout 1/3 the cost and it works just fine. I purchased it at a restaurantsupply store for about 29 Canadian. Mark Thanks Mark - found one listed in the Grainger's catalog at a quitereasonable price. Glad to have a report on it's suitability. One otherquestion; did you do anything about insulating the outside for tempstability? Would appreciate your thoughts on the subject. It may not beatall necessary.Thanks, Richard from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 28 16:58:31 1996 Subject: Re: Salmon rod value In a message dated 96-04-28 09:30:56 EDT, you write: Hello Richard,The temp. gauge I use is a COOPER digital mod. 450, temp. range -40 to450f.it is not as fast acting as the wire type Frank uses, but I found it to beabout 1/3 the cost and it works just fine. I purchased it at a restaurantsupply store for about 29 Canadian. Mark Thanks Mark - found one listed in the Grainger's catalog at a quitereasonable price. Glad to have a report on it's suitability. One otherquestion; did you do anything about insulating the outside for tempstability? Would appreciate your thoughts on the subject. It may not beatall necessary.Thanks, Richard Richard, My temps are pretty close but insulating would help I'm sure. They justopened a new store in our town that carries a thin narrow (4-5") wide rollof insulation suitable for my temp. application. I am going to give it a try. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 28 17:35:11 1996 Subject: Cloth bags and varnish A while ago I posted a comment about how the cane tip tubes seemed tokeep the varnish perfect, whereas the butt and mid which were in the cloth bag had alligatored varnish. I was wondering if this could be because of the acids used in the dyeing process. Could they be affecting the resins in the varnish? Are there any chemists on the list who might answer this?Reed Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 28 20:57:35 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Quackery Reed,Having "learned " to cast with a telescoping steel rod at age ten 54years ago I find I can cast just about anything from a wet noodle to abroomstick. I can cast a Garrison fairly easily but I'd rather not. I findthe ones I built too slow an action for my taste. My casting stroke issomewhat like (excuse the expression) Kreh's or Wulff's. I use my forearmalot to extend the base of my cast but if casting a cane rod I DO NOT give itthe graphite punch at the end. I made my wife an 8' for a 6 and until shelearned to smooth out her stroke the line was puddling in front of her. Allof the above is by the way of saying that some of us like 'em slow andsomelike 'em medium and some like 'em fast. My rod building tends toward thefaster action with enough power to reach acros the Lamar river and stillgetan accurate presentation up close on the Rapidan or some of the smallerlocalspring creeks. I find that I get this action more from the much malignedprogressive or straight tapers and their subtle variations than from alltheothers I have tried. My favorite rod is a 71/2' for a 5 with which I shortline nymph and also cast a size 22 parachute Adams long distances onlowerSlough creek. It does everything except chuck and duck which I reserve to,you guessed it a long graphite.If it breaks as I get sloppy at day's end Ihaven't ruined alabor of love.Hank. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 28 21:49:24 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Quackery Hank,At least you got your start on steel. My first fly rod was a $3 Japanese 9' with no redeeming features. The line was level, plasticcoated, and when you pulled on the leader, the plastic coating would stretch past the end of the nylon core. (Ah, the good old days.) My "instructor" was miscellaneous articles from Field and Stream (no two agreeing on anypoint). Having "learned " to cast with a telescoping steel rod at age ten 54years ago I find I can cast just about anything from a wet noodle to abroomstick. I can cast a Garrison fairly easily but I'd rather not. I findthe ones I built too slow an action for my taste. Throw them my way, I like them slow. As individuals we vary so much inour clock speed, I'm running at 8mz, I think. Best regards, Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 05:47:31 1996 Subject: Re: Cloth bags and varnish A while ago I posted a comment about how the cane tip tubes seemed tokeep the varnish perfect, whereas the butt and mid which were in the clothbag had alligatored varnish. I was wondering if this could be because of the acids used in the dyeing process. Could they be affecting the resins in the varnish? Are there any chemists on the list who might answer this?Reed Curry Hello Reed, Wow, I have never heard of that one before. I sure hope someone out therecan give some input.Are you going to Grayling this year? Mark from V050GYZM@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Mon Apr 29 10:11:58 1996 Subject: good morning! hi, there.... how did it go? was your power-point-assisted presentation a success?was the weather in jupiter or wherever you were decent? and how was your return? heard that St.L got 70 MPH winds and other nastiness, and that it's headed our way. not pleasant to fly into... Friday night, I was on my way downtown to go to a jazz club to hear a singer a lot of us had been wanting to see. and worry (over the very serious $ situation) was seriously stressing me out. as I headed down Delaware (the major street that's at my corner) and got to about Mile One of the Turkey Trot, I looked at the trees in amazement--all the trees along the parkway looked nearly orange, lighted from within, iridescent...it was a little before 8. their lighting design was supplied by the glorious sunset reflecting off Delaware Park lake...certainly the most magnificent view I've seen all year, and enough to take my mind off my stuff for a while... hey.... and how are you? was FL fun? xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo P. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 11:01:46 1996 Subject: Re: Tapers to graph? Mikael,I have placed a spreadsheet on the sirronald ftp site. I was developed progress but the one on sirronald can calculate tapers from stress andstresses from a taper. I am working on cells to scale a stress curve fordifferent length rods that should be available soon.regards,Davidhood@fc.hp.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 11:55:33 1996 Subject: Windows version of the rod program OK folks, after many fits and starts, it looks like the first version ofthe windows program is ready. This program is based on Wayne's Hexrodprogram and serves the same function. It also has save and graphfunctionswhich make it a lot easier to use! The file is located at the sirronald ftp site and is called rod.zip Touse, put the zip file in its own sub-directory and unzip it there. Thenrun the setup.exe program and it will setup automatically and you arereadyto go! This is just the first release version and there is room for change andimprovement. If you have any suggestions, please let me know what youthink. Please note that this program does NOT design the rod for you. All it doesis give you a tool for looking at the stresses, much like a staticdeflection board. YOU still have to do the designing! That being said, enjoy!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 12:15:06 1996 Subject: Re: Windows version of the rod program Any chance that someone will/can convertthis to a Mac program??? Jared from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 12:23:31 1996 Subject: Seasons in the Sun =PS - Some of the list have made it to the stream already - but here in=Michigan this is the opening weekend (they are forecasting snow -itwon't be=the first time) - fishing will be slow but it is a traditional thing (cabin=hopping - polishing boats - stretching leaders) I don't want to rub it in but: Spent Saturday Morning in Ft. Desoto Park, (lower Pinellas County, on the edge of the Egmont Key channel.) I was fishing one of the many flats in that area and only got one Hookup. a 18 to 20 in sea trout. Nice fish. He came up out of a boat channel just as I was getting ready to start another back cast. So I was standing there with almost no line outside the tiptop and a mad trout on the line. For a while it was a question of who had who. If you haven't gotten out by this time I hope you get out soon. Or come on down and see us. We'd love to have you. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 12:30:09 1996 Subject: Re: Windows version of the rod program Any chance that someone will/can convertthis to a Mac program??? Jared I made a version for Hypercard, but there is something wrong with it. I'mnot sure if I really should start over again and after the effort of makingthe windows version, I'm a bit worn out. The best thing to do is use one of the spreadsheet versions that isfloating around. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 12:41:39 1996 Subject: RE: stripper and tip guide placement =I am building a couple of Loomis tournament casting blanks for the dryfly=(7 wt.) and trout fly (6 wt.) games and would appreciate some input onhow=to test for the placement of the first stripper guide. Clemen'srecommends=a spacing of 28" to 35" from the middle of the reel seat. He warnsagainst=placing the stripper too far away which will cause the line to slap the=blank. If it is too close the line will supposedly choke at the first=guide.=What sort of testing can be done to get the correct placement? Does it=take a slow motion video to pick up the blank slap and/or line choking=point? I don't think that I could detect either problem while casting. Oh, you'll see it all right.The white headed guy (Carl Hanson) says 18 in and I agree with him. I've even rebuilt several "Store Bought" rods to meet this specification.Most problems result from the distance between the "line hand" and the stripper.When you start your cast, both line and rod hand are fairly close together, However most people end the back cast with the two apart. Thisincreases the distance between your hand and the stripper, but when you make your fore cast the distance decreases, giving slack. The cure is to keep the hands together or bring them together at the end of the back cast. You do this with a double hall.The longer the distance between your hand and the first guide the more the slack. =Any suggestions you have on the way to optimize these placements willbe a=big help to a novice builder. Sorry I can't help with the second question except to suggest that the guides have to do with casting (that rod tip is waving around out there)and that the stress on a rod isn't constant. (you could try Taping the guides in place and casting the rod. See what happens with the first guide at the 10 in point.) Good Luck. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 13:38:40 1996 Subject: RE: stripper and tip guide placement Sorry, can't help on the stripper guide placement. Considering the maximum stress in a bent rod is typically 10" to 12"inchesaway from the tip, and then it steeply drops to zero at the tip, why isnecessary to put a couple of guides ahead of that maximum stress point?Ifyou used a first guide spacing of 5 or 5.5 inches to reduce the weightnearthe tip what problems would it cause? Your observation on the max stress being 10 to 12 inches from the tipmatched perfectly what I at first thought was an error in the Excelspreadsheet I created. For example, here is the stress numbersgenerated for the first 36 inches of a taper. notice how low theystart out at the tip, and the peak is at 14 inches. Until I saw a fewstress graphs plotted I thought my method of plotting stress graphswas wrong. Notice though, the stress does not drop to zero at thetip. In my method of plotting stress I take into account the weightof 50 feet of line and what Garrison called a "tip impact factor". Darryl Hayashida Station Stress0 314051 618832 914753 1202204 1481535 1572416 1631067 1665508 1681749 16843410 17243011 17543412 17760913 17909214 18000015 17604616 17201717 16797318 16395619 16000020 15218421 14497822 13832723 13218324 12650025 12337426 12038527 11753228 11481029 11221430 10845431 10493832 10315233 10136834 9960035 9697836 94466 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 14:08:10 1996 Subject: RE: stripper and tip guide placement Darryl,What is the source of the moment at the tip? Unless you consider the tipto be the end of the cane and the length of the wire loop tip top you shouldfind the stress to approach zero as you approach the tip. Garrison'sequations only deal with moments and the weight of the line does notproducea moment unless it is acting through some length of the rod at a non-zeroangle. If you have no moment then you have no stress according to theGarrison equations. regards,David P.S. I think Garrison's equations will break down in a mathematicalsingularity at zero length. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 14:09:19 1996 Subject: Bamboo Convert Hello all, Early April Reed Curry wrote:The best marketing is word-of-mouth. After hearing one of our fellowlisters state that he would like to know more of cane rods but had never had the opportunity to use one, I said to myself, "Self", I said, "Self, why don't you extend the fly rod of friendship." So, I propose that if there are any on the list who are curious about the varying actions and attributes ofcane rods, I have some oldies, some goodies, some grotties; if you live near etc. Well, I took him up on it this past weekend. Remember, I was the one whining about not having a chance to try bamboo and was too expensive (even the trout left the river because the NH White Water Committee deemed it Class VII; ^) ), so no fish. But... the reason was to try bamboo rods, in which I did. I forgot some of the names I tried but here goes: An F.E. Thomas, a Bristol and a no name parabolic (personal favorite), and another I forgot. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Reed). Anyway, I'm anofficial convert. Reed brought several lengths (10' down to 8'). I've been fishing for about 10 years, 8 with a Sage LL 8', 5 wt (2nd generation graphite). What I liked the most was, the rod was helping me, 30' casts without any false casts, even 10' casts, which is almost impossible with the graphite. Granted, it took a short time to get the timing down, but I managed. The best part was I had to slow down and not be as agressive, i.e. RELAX. When casting long distances and such, I'd probably reach for Graphite. But for small stream fishing, which is most for me, bamboo can't be beat. So, now I have to get in high gear and getto building some of these!!!! Now if the rain will stop, I might have a shot to catch fish.Thank again, Reed, it is the best marketing I know of... Excited about bamboo, Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 16:39:33 1996 Subject: Anybody cast a Paul Young Para-15? I've been using my spreadsheet to graph stress curves on differenttapers from different makers, and the stress curve on a Para-15comes out very strange looking. Basically it looks saddle shaped. The stress goes up to a first maximumpoint in the first 10 inches then slowly trails away to a low point at48inches. The stress then increases to as high as the max point at 10inchesright before the handle. The interpretation of this graph is that thehigher the stress, the more the rod bends. So, given this graph, this would meanthis rod bends as much right in front of the handle than the tip section,with themiddle section remaining relatively stiff. My question is to anybody who owns or has casted one of these rods.What does it cast like? This would almost be what I would envisionthe reputed McCastle - Connell kick taper That someone mentionedlast year to be like. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 17:44:51 1996 Subject: Paul Young Para-15 Darryl Hayashida, The Para-15 is one of the smoothest casting rods I have ever owned. Likeall true parabolic rods it takes some getting used to, but once you get the timing down it is delightful. The parabolic design lets it cast equallywell up close with very little line our, or at longer distances with lots of line. The more line you throw the farther the action moves down into thebutt.Not everyone likes the parabolic feel, but I feel if more people had the opportunity to fish one for any extended period of time, they would fall in love with it. I think Dick has this right. The parabolic rods do take some adjustments in timing, but once you start to work *with* them they provide an effortless cast, very gentle action and graceful. Without belaboring the point, this is one taper where cane rules. The term "parabolic" has been variously interpreted. I take it to mean a rod which has a somewhat stiff (but not clubby) tip, a very active mid, and a firm butt. The mid tends to "kick" the tip over, accelerating the line with seemingly no effort from the caster. Reed Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 29 23:40:56 1996 Subject: OOps!! Sorry folks, but I screwed up! I left out one critical file in the .ziparchive. It's fixed now so just follow the directions below and enjoy theprogram. It's been a loooong day! :') OK folks, after many fits and starts, it looks like the first version ofthe windows program is ready. This program is based on Wayne's Hexrodprogram and serves the same function. It also has save and graphfunctionswhich make it a lot easier to use! The file is located at the sirronald ftp site and is called rod.zip Touse, put the zip file in its own sub-directory and unzip it there. Thenrun the setup.exe program and it will setup automatically and you arereadyto go! This is just the first release version and there is room for change andimprovement. If you have any suggestions, please let me know what youthink. Please note that this program does NOT design the rod for you. All itdoesis give you a tool for looking at the stresses, much like a staticdeflection board. YOU still have to do the designing! That being said, enjoy!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 30 08:32:45 1996 Subject: Re: OOps!! At 12:27 AM 4/30/96 -0400, you wrote:Sorry folks, but I screwed up! I left out one critical file in the .ziparchive. It's fixed now so just follow the directions below and enjoy theprogram. It's been a loooong day! :') OK folks, after many fits and starts, it looks like the first version ofthe windows program is ready. This program is based on Wayne's Hexrodprogram and serves the same function. It also has save and graphfunctionswhich make it a lot easier to use! The file is located at the sirronald ftp site and is called rod.zip Touse, put the zip file in its own sub-directory and unzip it there. Thenrun the setup.exe program and it will setup automatically and you arereadyto go! This is just the first release version and there is room for change andimprovement. If you have any suggestions, please let me know what youthink. Please note that this program does NOT design the rod for you. All itdoesis give you a tool for looking at the stresses, much like a staticdeflection board. YOU still have to do the designing! That being said, enjoy!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net Bruce, Great job, looks like you were really burning the midnight oil. Your VBversion makes Wayne's Hexrod an even more powerful tool. Thanks. I still had a load problem and had to manually rename ver.dll in thewindowsdirectory, setup named it ver.dl so the program hung. Once the change wasmade it runs great. I like the ability to be able to view all the parameters at once and thenmake selective changes. I would recommend everyone running windowsdownloadthis program, it is truly a valuable tool. Ed Muraski from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 30 15:12:44 1996 Subject: Def's of rod action terms I know this is a lot to ask, but... Is there any chance of agreement on the definition of rod action terms like "parabolic", "progressive", and "straight taper"? As a rank beginner at this rod building / rod design hobby, I'mtrying to follow this discussion but I fear that these termsmay mean different things to each of you. Or maybe you are allin agreement, and I'm the only one in the dark. I like David Hood's definition of "parabolic" from some months ago, in terms of the parabolic shape of the stress curve. It was nice and tight; no reference to how it feels casting or other subjectivejudgements. As I recall from Garrison, however, the term reallypredates his development of stress curves, so someone must havechosen the term for some other reason.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 30 21:04:07 1996 Subject: Re: Anybody cast a Paul Young Para-15? In a message dated 96-04-29 17:33:55 EDT, you write: This would almost be what I would envisionthe reputed McCastle - Connell kick taper That someone mentionedlast year to be like. Dear Darryl et al,The above reference caught my attention and sent me scurrying into mylibrary. According to Eric Taverner's Salmon Fishing (Seely&Service,London,1948) pp7-8, the Castleconnel was a two-piece spliced greenheart rodmade byEnright " on the banks of the Shannon" (presumably in the village ofCastleconnel itself.) Taverner recommends using this 16 foot rod as amodel butt section and is a very effective spey-casting rod. Other sources puttheweight of these rods at 30+ ounces, so the kick may have been a functionofthe considerable rod momentum acting on the line through the relativelythick tip. Whether the Castleconnel was the ancestor of the parabolictaperor related to it, I don't know.Schweibert, in Trout Tackle - II, "The Iconography of the Split-BambooFly Rod", attributes the parabolic taper to Charles Ritz and the roddesigners at Pezon et Michel, after Ritz made an emergency repair on atip-amputated rod on a fishing trip and liked the strange resulting taper.Schweibert also notes that some of the PetM para rods had staggeredferrules, i.e. the butt section was significantly shorter than the tip. Iwonder how this relates to A.J.'s earlier comment about the lower ferrulebeing right in the way in a three-piece para? Have builders experimentedwith staggered ferrules on any tapers, para or otherwise? There's anothervariable to plug into the program...--Roger Wiggin from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 30 21:36:53 1996 Subject: Re: Anybody cast a Paul Young Para-15? At 09:48 PM 4/30/96 -0400, you wrote:In a message dated 96-04-29 17:33:55 EDT, you write: This would almost be what I would envisionthe reputed McCastle - Connell kick taper That someone mentionedlast year to be like. Dear Darryl et al,The above reference caught my attention and sent me scurrying into mylibrary. According to Eric Taverner's Salmon Fishing (Seely&Service,London,1948) pp7-8, the Castleconnel was a two-piece spliced greenheart rodmade byEnright " on the banks of the Shannon" (presumably in the village ofCastleconnel itself.) Taverner recommends using this 16 foot rod as amodel thebutt section and is a very effective spey-casting rod. Other sources puttheweight of these rods at 30+ ounces, so the kick may have been a functionofthe considerable rod momentum acting on the line through the relativelythick tip. Whether the Castleconnel was the ancestor of the parabolictaperor related to it, I don't know.Schweibert, in Trout Tackle - II, "The Iconography of the Split-BambooFly Rod", attributes the parabolic taper to Charles Ritz and the roddesigners at Pezon et Michel, after Ritz made an emergency repair on atip-amputated rod on a fishing trip and liked the strange resulting taper.Schweibert also notes that some of the PetM para rods had staggeredferrules, i.e. the butt section was significantly shorter than the tip. Iwonder how this relates to A.J.'s earlier comment about the lower ferrulebeing right in the way in a three-piece para? Have builders experimentedwith staggered ferrules on any tapers, para or otherwise? There'sanothervariable to plug into the program...--Roger Wiggin I have a Ritz Fario Club and hopefully I will be able to cast it along withone of A.J.'s, rods in June and observe differences/similiarities.> Mike in PDX