from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Apr 1 03:14:46 1996 Subject: Re: Archives and Administrivia Michael, THANKS FOR THE UPDATE. CAN YOU SEND ME A CRASH COURSE ONACCESSING THEARCHIVES.I DIDN'T SE IT IN MY INITIAL INFO. THANKS> JB Well folks, the 'official' word just came down from thepowers to be regarding sirronald.wustl.edu - the currenthome of the RODMAKERS archives. The machine will be shutdown on June 30th. Currently in the archives, there is a wealth of informationthat is free for the taking. I'd sure hate to see theresource lost. If there is anyone out there with a machine that might besuitable for the RODMAKERS archives, please let me know.We don't have a whole lot of time left. ORN (Obligatory Rodmaking Note) The last strip of a 6ft. 6in. 4wt will be planed this evening.Hopefully gluing this weekend... Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Apr 1 09:04:18 1996 Subject: Re: finishes etc. Locally I get PPG from Painter's Supply & Equipment (Grand Rapids) -perhapsa good start would be to check the Yellow Pages under paint. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Apr 1 11:14:56 1996 Subject: A story you might enjoy I posted this story on the Fly Tie listserve in response to the question"What is a dubbing rake?" Thought you might get a laugh out of it as well. DISCLAIMER: The following original story is a bit off-color, so if you findthis sort of thing offensive, please don't read it! "The Story of the Rake" One day long ago, little Poly Dubbing was skipping cheerfully through themeadow while on her way to see her friend Veniard the material supplier,little knowing what the day held in store for her. She had just come to the riverbank when who else but C. Ramik, the localrake, popped out of the bushes. There was a costume ball that evening intown and he was dressed as a rabbit. He gave her a line, "You're going tomarry me! As far as I'm concerned, you're half-hitched already!" "You Wulff! I shall never marry you!", she sniffed, hooking the corner ofher mouth in a sneer. "You're only ribbing me because I'm a little grayling around the temples.",he laughed. Poly cast a derisive look his direction and turned in a tight loop. "No!I'm going to marry Paul. He's young.", she said, heading upstream. "Paul? Young?" the rake hooted. "Look closely at his hair and necksometime and you'll see that they are dyed! I thought you'd only goingafter a natural..." She swirled at him. "Don't you badger me about his neck, you caddis! You'dlook a little grizzly too if you worked so near the furnace. If he heardyou talking to me this way, he'd schlappen you silly. Now I think ourconversation is dun. Neck indeed!" She threaded her way past him, but hegrabbed her by the throat until chenilled before him. "You've refused me for the last time", said Ramik "If I'm going to be putdown, you shall sulk along with me. By the time I'm finshed with you, noone will want you. You'll end up a char-woman!" She tried to drag free, but he was determined to leader over to a tree. Hebound her down to the shank of the tree using a thin kevlar thread ofimmense strength, all the while admiring her plump body. Now that he hadher in his clutches, the foxy rake removed his hare's mask and gave an evillaugh. Helpless, he teased her with some velcro he had cunningly attachedto a stick. She bristled at him. This kind of treatment really got herhackles up! She struggled against the thread, cursing it. "So you think mythread base, do you?", the rake smiled, "How's about I take you for alittle spin, Miss Dubbing?" Ramik took off his fur body and showed her his Dickerson. There weremanybranches on the lower part of the tree, but luckily he had tied her off farenough down that he had room enough for his head. Poly was horrifiedwhenhe started to peel away the fluff underneath her cape. He was trying tohold her in an improved clinch. Choosing her moment, she lashed out withher foot and mashed down his barb, but good! "Thunder and Lightning!", hescreamed, "Just look what you've done to my jungle cock!" He reeled, tryingto avoid her backlash. Just then, over the hill came a welcome sight. It was Poly's brotherAntron! Even though Antron had been at the pub and his head was a littlelacquered up, he knew who and what he saw across the meadow. Glaring atthe smutting form still bent over in front of his sister, he made acrashing strike at the rake, hitting him in the gut. The rake went downseeing dancing nymphs before his eyes. "I'll finish you now!", criedAntron, applying a neat whipping. Antron picked up the rake and threw himacross and downstream. "Skues me, but your fly is all wet!" shouted Poly, after the slowly sinkingrake. But she couldn't get a rise out of him. And that is the end of our tale. Sorry, I couldn't help myself!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Apr 1 22:04:23 1996 Subject: Re: A story you might enjoy Hello Bruce:If you do not want yur stories off-color, try Dale Clemens color preserver.It really is great, tho some consider such a real payne. Cheers, RT from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Apr 1 23:40:34 1996 Subject: Re: A story you might enjoy Hello Bruce:If you do not want yur stories off-color, try Dale Clemens colorpreserver.It really is great, tho some consider such a real payne. Cheers, RT Shall I apply it with my pinky? Or will I need a whole garrisonof helpers? ;'> Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Apr 2 05:12:43 1996 Subject: RODMAKERS digest 235 -Reply Bruce, You mentioned a Fly Tie list just before you started your Dubbing Rakestory. Since I tie my own trout flies, I 'm interested to subscribe to a list Johan Saayman.jsaayman@avitronics.co.za from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Apr 2 09:12:36 1996 Subject: Re: Archives I've had a couple requests for information on how to accessthe RODMAKERS archives. First off, unfortunately the archivesare not accessable via email - you must have FTP (file transferprotocol) capability from your account to access the completearchives. If you are unsure as to whether or not you have thiscapability, your system manager should be able to tell you. If you have access to the World Wide Web, you can access thearchived messages of the list and some GIF's via Bruce Conner'sexcellent 'Cane Rod Building FAQ' Web page. Also Gordon Johnson's'Cane Rod Links' web page has links to Bruce's. Bruce's link: http://www.cybercom.net/~bconner/rod.html Gordon's link: http://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml To access the entire archives via anonymous ftp: ftp sirronald.wustl.edu (if your name-server is down use 128.252.150.1) At the login prompt enter: anonymousAt the password prompt: enter your email address You should now be at an ftp prompt... Enter: cd /pub/rm (This will put you into the RODMAKERS directory) dir (This will list the directory contents) binary (If the file you want download is NOT a text file otherwise disregard) get filename.ext (This will download the file to your computer) bye (This will sign you off) The above should work from most any machine that has FTP capability.If you have any problems or questions, please let me know. Mike BiondoRodmakers Listguy from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Apr 2 10:19:22 1996 Subject: Re: RODMAKERS digest 235 -Reply Bruce, You mentioned a Fly Tie list just before you started your Dubbing Rakestory. Since I tie my own trout flies, I 'm interested to subscribe to a list Johan Saayman.jsaayman@avitronics.co.za in the subject line. No text in the body of the message. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Apr 2 21:22:46 1996 Subject: Re: No Subject Jon,I get "address not known" when I tried to reach you atCaneRods@aol.com.Myapologies to the list.Thanks ,Jon for the bit on the mine near Yellowstone. we' ve beenfighting it thru the Beartooth Alliance for several years now. Now that theE.I.S.is due out some of the influential opponents will make their viewsknown after reading the E.I.S. Hopefully we cane beat it.Hank Woolman. from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Apr 2 23:09:19 1996 Subject: Re: Guides I've just finished gluing, binding, and sanding a 2 piece 7' 3/4 DTCattanachrod blank. I'm now in the process of buying my guides and have noticed thatthere are American and British snake guide patterns. Which is better,and/ormore traditional? Futhermore, what are the inside diameters of thedifferenttip tops? (ie. a #4 tip top ID = ?, #5 tip top ID = ?) There are at least 2 different diameters of silk thread, "A" and "00". Onmygraphite fly rods I've used "A" nylon. What size of silk thread worksbetter Thanks, Bradford Edgren from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Apr 3 07:28:17 1996 Subject: re: european bamboo Hello european rodbuilders, 2 adresses of bamboo purchasers: Rutenbauwerksttten Michael HlsenbeckAm Walde 1-242929 WermelskirchenGermanyPhone: 02196 89311 FluesnapperenPreben Dorph JorgensenRosenlundsvej 249230 SvenstrupDenmarkPhone 0045 98381476 GreatingsMichael Brandt (Germany) from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Apr 3 11:00:29 1996 Subject: Wooden Plane - Kit or plans Hello All,I've been surfing the Internet and ran across this Web page: http://www.mcn.org/a/rhock/hockhome.htm It's the Web page for Hock blades. Very interesting page.They have a kit for a wooden plane, and they also sellthe plans if you want to make one yourself. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Apr 3 11:27:36 1996 Subject: Sharpening Plane Blades Hello again,Still surfing the internet, and I ran across this interestingmethod to sharpen plane blades using sandpaper.The really fine sandpaper (1200 and 2000 grit) canbe found in automobile paint supply stores. Darryl Hayashida *************************************************************************** Condensed Version or How to sharpen a plane blade withsandpaper. Mercilessly butchered into a Condensed "How to"Version by J. Gunterman from the Original by theSteve Lamantia. To lap the back behind the cutting bevel: Use a very light coatings of 3M "77" spray adhesive to temporarilyglue small 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" rectangular pieces of sandpaperalong the edge of a sheet of 1/4" plate-glass. The paper to use is Aluminum Oxide in grits 50, 80, and 100, andSilicon Carbide (wet-or-dry to you lay people) in grits of 150,180, 220, 320, 400, 600, 1200, and 2000. The plate glass shouldbe placed with its edge flush to the edge of the workbench.Grits can be skipped, if desired, but more time on each grit will thenbe required to fully remove the scratches from the previousgrit. Using the gradual progression as listed, however, will requireonly about a minute or so with each grit." Lap the end one inch of the back of the iron on each grit in turn.You could use it wet or dry. About every ten seconds or so, stop and brush off the sandpaperwith a whisk broom and wipe the blade off on your shirt. About ten minutes after starting, you should have gone from 50 griton up to 2000, and there will be a mirror finish on the backof that iron the likes of which must be seen. Then jig the blade in a Veritas honing jig or go it by hand-- Clamp the blade down in the Veritas blade-holder device, takingcare to have the bevel resting on the glass perfectly along bothedges. Adjust the microbevel cam on the jig up to its full two-degree microbevel setting -- and hone away on the 2000-grit Flip the blade over on the sandpaper several times, hone and lap,hone and lap, each time gentler and gentler, to remove the littlebit of wire edge The resulting little thin secondary bevel should be quite shiny bythis time. Remove the blade from the jig, and perform the "shave some armhairs off" test, or the sharpness test of your own choice. Of course, the ultimate test of a plane iron's sharpness is what itdoes on wood. When it is all done, peel the sandpaper from the glass and throw itaway. Then, scrape the little bit of residual adhesive from theglass with a razor blade, a quick wipedown with acetone on a pieceof paper towel, and the cleanup is done in a minute. No oil, no water, no mess, no glaze or flatness problems to worryabout, and a cutting edge that is Scary-Sharp (TM). from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Apr 3 17:54:14 1996 Subject: Re: Guides Bradford Like everything, choice of snake guides and stripper guides are amatterof personal choice. On the tip top issue - that is easier - size 5 equates to 5/16thswhich thenequates to .0781 in thousandths. For Wayne's tapers which the tip isaround.070 across the flats a size 5 tip usually works well. On the thread issue - it is back to personal taste. I perfer using 00size Chris Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Apr 4 10:51:52 1996 Subject: BAMBOO IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST new book release---------> BAMBOO IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST On June 24-25, 1994 one hundred bamboo professionals and enthusiastsgathered in Gold Beach, Oregon to focus on the future of the fledglingbamboo industry in the Pacific Northwest. The two days that followedwereloaded with the intensity only "bambuseros" (a word coined for Americanbamboo lovers) can achieve when brought together in large groups toexchange knowledge. Those who attended gained new understanding abouttheprocess of developing bamboo as a agro-forestry crop for our region. The active group listened to a day of presentations by a series ofspeakers. The next day, a work session of bamboo specialists andinterestedpeople moderated by local host, Gib Cooper, produced a list of sevenattainable goals for developing the the bamboo industry in the PacificNorthwest. One of the goals was to compile the presentations and worksession into a book. BAMBOO IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST is the result of Gib Cooper's editingsevenmanuscripts and the work session. The book (and workshop) is the first ina series of attempts to organize and quantify the business of bambooproduction, product development and marketing. The ninety pages discusspaper pulp development, bamboo history and ecology, bamboo on the farm,results of bamboo in permaculture plantings, timber bamboo poleproduction,and include an interesting article on developing a bamboo plantation inVietnam. In addition to providing a summary of the workshop, the editorupdates progress of the goals since 1994. Also included is a list ofparticipating organizations and individuals. Sales of the book will aid in funding the 1997 Pacific Northwest BambooAgro-forestry Workshop scheduled for June 21-22, 1997 at CentraliaCollegein Washington state. The workshop is actively supported by the PacificNorthwest Chapter of the American Bamboo Society (PNC-ABS). BAMBOO IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST is now available. To have a copyshipped toyou in the USA send a check made out to PNC-ABS for $18. Mail the checktoPNW Bamboo Workshop, 28446 Hunter Creek Loop, Gold Beach, OR 97444.Copiesof the book can also be purchased for $15 at meetings and events of thePNC-ABS. Contact Dean Hines, 15211 -91st Ave. SE, Snohomish, WA 98290forinformation about joining the society. Dues are $10 a year. The PNC-ABS isthe largest regional chapter of the American Bamboo Society. /H\\H H //HH /H \ Gib Cooper H\ Voice/Fax: 541-247-0835 /H\\H \/H H Tradewinds Bamboo Nursery /H bambugib@harborside.com / HHH H\H\\H\ 28446 Hunter Creek Loop H \ H\H\HH\ HH /H\ Gold Beach, OR 97444 H /H H HH H/H\HH \\ http://harborside.com/bamboo/ H H HH\\H\H HH // H H HH /HH H H from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Apr 4 10:51:52 1996 Subject: Re: Consignments Selling bamboo fly rods can be as rewarding and as frustrating asmakingthem. I know of new rods selling from as low as $450.00 to in excess of$1500.00. It is a classic catch - 22. First you need to get recognized as arod maker but often low prices make folks question if they are gettingtheirvalues worth. A second catch - 22 is that if you use a broker (Rod Dealer)they promote the rods for you but at a discount of as much as 30%. There are several avenues of self promoting your work. Magazineadvertising - sports shows - and just doing a slide show for the local flyfishing group. Because the kids want to sell some rods this summer Irecently booked a year of 1/6 page advertising - a first for me - the cost$240.00 per issue. For several years I have done some of the fly fishingshows - booths cost $350.00 - $850.00 per show - add in travel costs,hotels,and misc expenses.If you have ever started a business you are familiar with the fact thatpeople just don't rush to your door and the first few years incomes are putback into the company. When I started in the heating business back in 1980Iwent with no income for 2 1/2 years. Well like it or not when you want toturn a hobby into trying to make money at it the same comittment may berequired.I know that this is not what you want to hear - nobody does. But youwill need a plan - a business plan makes a person look at the many optionsormarket areas that you want to pursue and how you intend to reach thatarea.Here again I am going to throw in my standard disclaimer that somemaydisagree but to avoid disappointment I will offer up the same advice that Ihave given to as many as will listen.The first thing you want to do is to look at as many classic and currentmakers work as you can. Learn the details and make a list of the areasthatyou feel that you need to improve on. Secondly be a guru at what you do -when someone asks a question about rod making be able to explain it tothem -gain their respect. Also be a guru at the fishing style that you want tomarket your rods to. I dry fly fish on small streams and I can advise aclient on that type of fishing. If they want a salmon rod they need to findanother maker - better yet I will recommend one. My personal goal is tomakea persons most favorite rod. Why? Because they will tell the world howhappythey are with it.The balance in all this is that you need to establish yourself and thattakes time. And hopefully rod making will take you where you want - Iconsider myself fortunate - I have met some of the nicest folks that aretobe known - I've shared my enjoyment of fishing and rod making with myfamily- and I make a few bucks at it each year. Life is good. Best of Luck Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 5 21:18:16 1996 Subject: Re: Guides Bradford wrote:there are American and British snake guide patterns. Which is better,and/ormore traditional? The British (usually called English) pattern are reverse twist, this means they point the opposite way of the modern American pattern. The English snakes were used by many of the best makers in the U.S. until about the 1920's, when seemingly all but F.E.Thomas switched to the Americanstyle. I favor the English style not for the twist but for the generally low profile, they hold the line closer to the rod and the look appeals to me. Reed Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 5 22:06:19 1996 Subject: New(?) rod building web site... I found a very nice series of web pages detailing the cane rod buildingprocess. They were put up by Mikael, a Swedish builder, and are worthvisiting. Here's the address... http://www.skelleftea.se/utbildning/balder/personal/ba- mma/sidor/rod1.htm I've made a link to them from my page too! http://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml Cheers,Gordon from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 5 22:52:04 1996 Subject: Re: Another cane rodbuilding website (commercial) Hey, speaking of websites- The Bootstrap website is now up and available http://home.earthlink.net/free/bootstrap/./webdocs/./Questions and comments are invited.If you visit, you'll see that I have a space for links to other rodmakingsites. Reciprocal links are invited. If any of you who have located sitesI don't know about, please forward the URLs to me so I can include them.Thanks, Frank from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 6 11:44:28 1996 Subject: forms and oven I recently received a roughing form from Bootstrap. It has adjustable push pull screws like the finish form. one side is beveled for the first angle other side for the untapered triangle. I just finished rough planning a butt section for a 7' 4wt rod. It to worked great, I am having one made with a shallow bevel since I split my tip culm into 32 strips. The original form depth is .187, for the tips I think somewhere around .125 will work better for me. If any one is interested in Bootstrap forms, you should check out their web page or give Frank a call at 303-745- 1353. Also I am finishing up a Hot air oven. I would be interested in hearing from any one that has been using one. If I understand the plans correctly the suggested heating time and temps are 350 degees from 15 to 30 minutes. Is this better for this type oven than the usual 6-7 minutes at 375 degrees used by Garrison and Cattanach. Any suggestion will be appreciated. Jim Fillpot from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 6 20:47:15 1996 Subject: rod tapers hey you with the band-aids on your fingers, are all the contemporary rodmakers building Garrison tapers,and who believes the math? I'm new to all this so I'm just testing the water.Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 6 21:18:47 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Can you supply an address for the Bootstrap Web page? TIA. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 6 21:34:48 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Try this: http://home.earthlink.net/free/bootstrap/./webdocs/./ Regards, RT from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 6 22:29:05 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Can you supply an address for the Bootstrap Web page? TIA.Sure, it's at http://home.earthlink.net/free/bootstrap/./webdocs/./I appreciate your interest. Frank from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 12:04:45 1996 Subject: Desperately seeking A.J. A.J. Thramer, Just learned from Terry Ackland that you are now outin the land of cyberhex. Nice to know I won't have topay phone charges to Oregon to bug you anymore. :-) Each day I come home and dash to the front door looking for my 5wt. but,alas,it's not there. :-( Are we close? richard Hope you and your family have a good holiday! r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 12:07:30 1996 Subject: Re: Desperately seeking A.J. A.J. Thramer, Just learned from Terry Ackland that you are now outin the land of cyberhex. Nice to know I won't have topay phone charges to Oregon to bug you anymore. :-) Each day I come home and dash to the front door looking for my 5wt. but,alas,it's not there. :-( Are we close? richard Hope you and your family have a good holiday! r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!*****************************************Richard, Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 19:47:33 1996 Subject: Garrison Calculations Dear Fellow Rodmakers: I would like to share with you some of my impressions of thetaper/stress curve calculations as presented in The Master's Guide.... Ihave noticed several postings concerning the accuracy of computerprogramswhich perform these calculations and felt compelled to write this note. Ihave been making bamboo rods here in Atlanta for about 3 years whichputs mesquarely in the neophyte category as far as producing quality cane rodsgoes. While I might be a novice as far as rodmaking, I do haveconsiderableexperience in the type of calculations presented in The Masters Guide....I have a Ph.D. in computational physics and have taught physics at theuniversity level for over 10 years. I say this not to impress anyone, butto give some credence to what I am about to say. from a physicists pointofview, the theory behind the calculation runs the gamut from naive tomisleading to just plain wrong. It would take me pages of explanation tocritique every error, but I will try to give you some feeling for two of themajor ones. ( It's hard to choose just two). Virtually all the moment calculations are incorrect for a system asdynamicas a fly rod. The definition of a moment as it is presented in The Master'sGuide is incomplete. The way a moment is defined is the moment armtimesthe force times the sin of the angle between the two. Garrison completelyneglects the angle between the force and the moment arm assuming thattheangle is 90 deg. The sin of 90 deg. is 1 so the sin term does notcontribute to the calculation if the angle is 90 deg. However if you draw adiagram of a "loaded" rod, it is easy to see that the angle between say thetip and the force due to the line is nowhere near 90 deg. In order to knowthat angle and thus calculate the moments you would have to calculate thebend in the rod which requires a knowledge of the stresses. In order togetthe stress curve you need to know the moments. This vicious circle(needingto know the moments to calculate the moments) is what people mean whentheysay that the system is non-linear. There are methods for solving non-linearequations but they are very complex and require a knowledge ofdifferentialequations and numerical analysis way beyond the capabilities of all buttheexperts. Another major omission is in the calculation itself. Let's assume for themoment that the theory is sound, that the calculation is appropriate forthesystem. Whenever you do a calculation involving physical quantities suchaslength mass etc. , the error in those quantities contributes to theaccuracy of the result. For example let's say you wanted to calculate thearea of a rectangle. The width has been measured to be .123 inches to anaccuracy of .0005 inches. But let's assume that the height can only beestimated by "eye" to 4 inches plus or minus 1 inch. To state that thearea is .492 sq inches is incorrect even though 4 * .123 is .492. There isa rule that states that when two measurements are multiplied or dividedthere % errors are added. The %error for .123 is ( .0005/.123) * 100 =.41%. The %error for the estimated height is (1/4)*100 = 25% thus theerrorin the area is 25.41% or 25% for practical purposes.25% of .492 is .123 so the best we can say about the area is that it is .5sq inches plus or minus .1 sq inch, the other digits being insignificantcompared to the error. This rather contrived example does have a point.The " Impact Factor" in the Garrison Calculations is an estimated number. Iwould argue that it is a totally fictitious number but I will let thatsleeping dog lie. While there is no discussion of it's accuracy in thepresentation I feel that it can't be any more accurate than plus or minus25%. If you do the error analysis on rod taper example calculation in thebook taking into account only the error due to the impact factor you comeupwith an error in each "flat" dimension of plus or minus approx. 75%. Thismeans that for a given stress curve any flat measurement that fallswithinplus or minus 75% of the calculated value is equally valid. And this isassuming that the theory is 100% correct. Of course all this begs the question why does it "work". The calculationsclearly produce serviceable rod tapers. I can only guess at the answer, butthe history of science is littered with examples of erroneous theoriesthatgive approximately correct results. I would also question whether thestress curves are even close to what they should be. Has anyone actuallymeasured the stress in a fly rod and compared the results to thosecalculated? My guess is that it hasn't been done. The usefulness of thetapers has more to do with the intuitive understanding that Mr. Garrisonhad would like to leave this pontification, rod design is still an art, notscience. Barry Rhodes Ph.D.brhodes@atl.mindspring.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 20:56:16 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Barry,I've felt for some time that Garrison's impact factor of 4 was anartificial figure. While I don't use formulae to arrive at my tapers I havefelt for years that most of the programs don't give the precision that theyseem to promise, the reality being far more complicated than ourcalculations. So I guess I'll keep on graphing my tapers and playing gamesempirically. I've come up with some great tapers and some doozies. I guessthat's what makes it fun.Hank Woolman from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 21:43:40 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Dear Fellow Rodmakers: I would like to share with you some of my impressions of thetaper/stress curve calculations as presented in The Master's Guide.... Ihave noticed several postings concerning the accuracy of computerprogramswhich perform these calculations and felt compelled to write this note. Ihave been making bamboo rods here in Atlanta for about 3 years whichputs mesquarely in the neophyte category as far as producing quality cane rodsgoes. While I might be a novice as far as rodmaking, I do haveconsiderableexperience in the type of calculations presented in The Masters Guide....I have a Ph.D. in computational physics and have taught physics at theuniversity level for over 10 years. I say this not to impress anyone, butto give some credence to what I am about to say. from a physicists pointofview, the theory behind the calculation runs the gamut from naive tomisleading to just plain wrong. It would take me pages of explanation tocritique every error, but I will try to give you some feeling for two of themajor ones. ( It's hard to choose just two). Virtually all the moment calculations are incorrect for a system asdynamicas a fly rod. The definition of a moment as it is presented in TheMaster'sGuide is incomplete. The way a moment is defined is the moment armtimesthe force times the sin of the angle between the two. Garrisoncompletelyneglects the angle between the force and the moment arm assuming thattheangle is 90 deg. The sin of 90 deg. is 1 so the sin term does notcontribute to the calculation if the angle is 90 deg. However if you drawadiagram of a "loaded" rod, it is easy to see that the angle between saythetip and the force due to the line is nowhere near 90 deg. In order toknowthat angle and thus calculate the moments you would have to calculatethebend in the rod which requires a knowledge of the stresses. In order togetthe stress curve you need to know the moments. This vicious circle(needingto know the moments to calculate the moments) is what people meanwhen theysay that the system is non-linear. There are methods for solving non-linearequations but they are very complex and require a knowledge ofdifferentialequations and numerical analysis way beyond the capabilities of all buttheexperts. Another major omission is in the calculation itself. Let's assume for themoment that the theory is sound, that the calculation is appropriate forthesystem. Whenever you do a calculation involving physical quantities suchaslength mass etc. , the error in those quantities contributes to theaccuracy of the result. For example let's say you wanted to calculate thearea of a rectangle. The width has been measured to be .123 inches to anaccuracy of .0005 inches. But let's assume that the height can only beestimated by "eye" to 4 inches plus or minus 1 inch. To state that thearea is .492 sq inches is incorrect even though 4 * .123 is .492. There isa rule that states that when two measurements are multiplied or dividedthere % errors are added. The %error for .123 is ( .0005/.123) * 100 =.41%. The %error for the estimated height is (1/4)*100 = 25% thus theerrorin the area is 25.41% or 25% for practical purposes.25% of .492 is .123 so the best we can say about the area is that it is .5sq inches plus or minus .1 sq inch, the other digits being insignificantcompared to the error. This rather contrived example does have a point.The " Impact Factor" in the Garrison Calculations is an estimated number. Iwould argue that it is a totally fictitious number but I will let thatsleeping dog lie. While there is no discussion of it's accuracy in thepresentation I feel that it can't be any more accurate than plus or minus25%. If you do the error analysis on rod taper example calculation in thebook taking into account only the error due to the impact factor you comeupwith an error in each "flat" dimension of plus or minus approx. 75%. Thismeans that for a given stress curve any flat measurement that fallswithinplus or minus 75% of the calculated value is equally valid. And this isassuming that the theory is 100% correct. Of course all this begs the question why does it "work". The calculationsclearly produce serviceable rod tapers. I can only guess at the answer,butthe history of science is littered with examples of erroneous theoriesthatgive approximately correct results. I would also question whether thestress curves are even close to what they should be. Has anyone actuallymeasured the stress in a fly rod and compared the results to thosecalculated? My guess is that it hasn't been done. The usefulness of thetapers has more to do with the intuitive understanding that Mr. Garrisonhad would like to leave this pontification, rod design is still an art, notscience. Barry Rhodes Ph.D.brhodes@atl.mindspring.com Barry, very interesting article,I would not want to argue with you,you areobviously better qualified than I.What I do know is that rods producedusingGarrison tapers that are difficult for most flyfishermen to cast,yet manycontemporary rodmakers are reproducing these tapers.This is a pitybecauseyoung anglers are getting turned off bamboo believing that all bamboo rodsare expensive noodles. The Garrison book has done a great service in keeping bamboo rodmakingalive butI feel the actual tapers have produced a Kings New Clothes situation. Onlya fool can't see how great they are. What is needed to convert all these composite flyfishermen is fast dryflyrods with more wood (grass) lower down.regards Terry Ackland, please check out my web pagehttp://www.odyssee.net/~hexagon/ from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 22:14:34 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Jim, I have experimented with a whole raft of types of tempering tools. FromGarrison's gas driver to flaming to whatever at a host of differenttemperatures. If you get the Planing Form, I gave a presentation @ Merrittget-together on my findings. At any rate, what I use now is a convectionoven of my own design c/w temperature controls, recirculating fansystmensetc. and the time/temp. that seems to work best for me is 360 F @ 15 minutes. The oven design does not require rotating thesectionsas does Garrisons/others as the oven is designed with a recirculatingchamber. If your oven doesn't have a recirc. system, you should likely add acouple of minutes. It would appear from all the info I have seen that 350F @ 15 or 375 @ 6>7yeilds about the same result. What is critical however is not getting thesections too hot for too long. The high heat destroys the cane. Experimentatad and see what you like. from what I found, tempering maybe a whole lottodo about nothing and adds little to the function of the rod. Makes a nicecolor though. Catch me on my e-mail address if you need more info. Regards, Don Andersen Also I am finishing up a Hot air oven. I would be interested in hearing from any one that has been using one. If I understand the plans correctly the suggested heating time and temps are 350 degees from 15 to 30 minutes. Is this better for this type oven than the usual 6-7 minutes at 375 degrees used by Garrison and Cattanach. Any suggestion will be appreciated. Jim Fillpot from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 22:48:42 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Dear Fellow Rodmakers: I would like to share with you some of my impressions of thetaper/stress curve calculations as presented in The Master's Guide.... Ihave noticed several postings concerning the accuracy of computerprogramswhich perform these calculations and felt compelled to write this note. I Barry Rhodes Ph.D.brhodes@atl.mindspring.com Barry, very interesting article,I would not want to argue with you,you areobviously better qualified than I.What I do know is that rods producedusing regards Terry Ackland, please check out my web pagehttp://www.odyssee.net/~hexagon/ Barry/Terry/others I like a whole lot of other "went" the Garrison route. Not a bad road totravel. Did discover that his rods worked well into the butt. Figured theonly way I would,at least in my own mind, understand the cane workings istobuild a whole lot of rods starting from a given rod and work out fromthere.I have made about 25 of 7'9" rods now shaving a little there and puffing itup a little elsewhere. Know what - - If you start with a 5/64 tip and workabout 0.013" to 0.014" of change/5" of travel down the rod shaft thethingswork pretty good. If you add a 0.0005 to each 5" station 10" from the tipat the 0.013 or 0.014" rate of change if gets faster. If you want a "buttswinger", shave a little on the butt section. The Garrison calculations confused the hell out of me. Measured a rod Iliked and went from there. I know that computers lend themselves toendlessand even mindless review of data, but it seems like from what Burce saidthat the calculations that Garrison used were wrong. Doesn't that suggestthat all the computer generated tapers from Garrisons's work could alsobewrong or did they just work out OK by accident. I would expect thatGarrisonfirst figured out what he wanted in a rod and then attempted do develop atheory to match. What I also noticed is except for the top 15" and a bump@the ferrule, Garrison's rods are approximately a linear taper. If you what acomplex taper, Garrison's system won't work.So much for my two bits. Regards to all, Don Andersen from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 23:40:46 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Barry, Where were you when I asked for input on improving the computation oftapers/stresses a while ago? I would have loved to use something betterthan Garrison's math. Since no one gave me any indication they wantedsomething better, I simply reproduced it in a Windows format. If you would like to give me some details about how to procede with theimproved math, I'd be happy to see if I could whip it into some sort ofuseful code. Despite what some others have said about computers, I think there may besome advantage to running designs through a WELL designed simulator. Ifthe model is good, then the results should be reproduced in the cane. Yes,it will be complex to get the model right, but that's what computers are You'll all excuse me now, I've had a long day and I think I'm getting cranky!:') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 7 23:41:02 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Jim, I have experimented with a whole raft of types of tempering tools. FromGarrison's gas driver to flaming to whatever at a host of differenttemperatures. If you get the Planing Form, I gave a presentation @ Merrittget-together on my findings. At any rate, what I use now is a convectionoven of my own design c/w temperature controls, recirculating fansystmensetc. and the time/temp. that seems to work best for me is 360 F @ 15 minutes. The oven design does not require rotating thesectionsas does Garrisons/others as the oven is designed with a recirculatingchamber. If your oven doesn't have a recirc. system, you should likely addacouple of minutes. It would appear from all the info I have seen that 350F @ 15 or 375 @ 6>7yeilds about the same result. What is critical however is not getting thesections too hot for too long. The high heat destroys the cane. Experimentatad and see what you like. from what I found, tempering maybe a wholelot todo about nothing and adds little to the function of the rod. Makes a nicecolor though. Catch me on my e-mail address if you need more info. Regards, Don Andersen Also I am finishing up a Hot air oven. I would be interested in hearing from any one that has been using one. If I understand the plans correctly the suggested heating time and temps are 350 degees from 15 to 30 minutes. Is this better for this type oven than the usual 6-7 minutes at 375 degrees used by Garrison and Cattanach. Any suggestion will be appreciated. Jim Fillpot I believe 6-7 minutes in the Garrison book must be a typo, you will onlychase a little surface moisture outT.Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 11:20:08 1996 Subject: physics of fly rods Hello all, I'm not sure if this came up yet, but there is an article, with references, available at the address below. It also has MPEGs of thier results of the simulations. I downloaded the text which has thecode (fortran) but it is Postscript and I don't have the resources to view it. If someone does and can convert it please let me know, I'm very interested in its contents. http://www.mit.edu:8001//people/kommers/fly.html Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 15:03:35 1996 Subject: computer generated tapers do any of the computer programes that have been devised to generate rodtapers take into account heat treatment and moisture content? The Payneheat treatment department was out of bounds to visitors and seeing thattheymade consistantly the best flyrods their process must have made thedifference. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 15:40:18 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations I was visiting my folks out in the country this past weekend.Up to this point in my rodbuilding I've struggled enough withthe mechanics, but I thought there will be plenty of time so I took Garrison and my calculator and I tackled the taperdesign chapter Saturday night... I guess I was disappointed because there are so many thingsnot taken into account in Garrison's model. The first thingI thought of is that, when the rod is loaded (bent), the moments due to the line being cast are only partially appliedat the tip guide, but also at all other guides which bear uponthe line. The greater the load, the farther from the tip the majority of the load is applied. Like Barry says, its a functionof the angle which the line makes with the rod at every guide. On Sunday I put some nails in my Dad's garage andsuspended an old fiberglas flyrod and hung weights on the tipguide, and on line strung thru every guide, every other guide,etc., and traced the rod curves. Then I started playing with pencil and paper and tried to remember my caculus and linear algebra from 20+ years ago. I ended up with a lot of wastedpaper and a headache. I'll return to it someday. But I wouldn't want a hobby that was all figured out by someoneelse and all that was left to do was apply the theory. There'splenty to chew on and experiment with and argue about. I like it.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 20:16:24 1996 Subject: Re: forms and oven Jim, I have experimented with a whole raft of types of tempering tools. FromGarrison's gas driver to flaming to whatever at a host of differenttemperatures. If you get the Planing Form, I gave a presentation @ Merrittget-together on my findings. At any rate, what I use now is a convectionoven of my own design c/w temperature controls, recirculating fansystmensetc. and the time/temp. that seems to work best for me is 360 F @ 15 minutes. The oven design does not require rotating thesectionsas does Garrisons/others as the oven is designed with a recirculatingchamber. If your oven doesn't have a recirc. system, you should likely addacouple of minutes. It would appear from all the info I have seen that 350F @ 15 or 375 @ 6>7yeilds about the same result. What is critical however is not getting thesections too hot for too long. The high heat destroys the cane. Experimentatad and see what you like. from what I found, tempering maybe a wholelot todo about nothing and adds little to the function of the rod. Makes a nicecolor though. Catch me on my e-mail address if you need more info. Regards, Don Andersen Also I am finishing up a Hot air oven. I would be interested in hearing from any one that has been using one. If I understand the plans correctly the suggested heating time and temps are 350 degees from 15 to 30 minutes. Is this better for this type oven than the usual 6-7 minutes at 375 degrees used by Garrison and Cattanach. Any suggestion will be appreciated. Jim Fillpot I believe theoking time in Garrisons book to be a typo,cooking for justthat length of will not remove enough moisture.T.Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 22:03:21 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Bruce, I'm sorry that I didn't post this earlier. I do recall you asking forsuggestions. The reason I did not respond is that quite simply there isno way to improve the Garrison Calculations based on anything other thanexperience. If you can use the calculations to design a 7' 4 Wt. fastaction rod and you like the resulting rod you make, who am I to say theequations are wrong. After all "The proof of the pudding is in theeating..." or something like that. A Windows version of Garrison's mathwould be very interesting, both from a historical perspective and as agenerator of useful tapers. If you are interested in reading about somemore recent attempts to model the dynamics of a fly rod, there are manygood references at the web site The Physics of Fly Casting at http://www.mit.edu:8001//people/kommers/refs.html.(This is the same site mentioned in Tom Ausfeld's recent posting.) Youmight try contacting some of the authors and collaborating on a modelingscheme. I would love to see it. Best of luck to you,Barry At 12:30 AM 4/8/96 -0400, you wrote:Barry, Where were you when I asked for input on improving the computation oftapers/stresses a while ago? I would have loved to use something betterthan Garrison's math. Since no one gave me any indication they wantedsomething better, I simply reproduced it in a Windows format. If you would like to give me some details about how to procede with theimproved math, I'd be happy to see if I could whip it into some sort ofuseful code. Despite what some others have said about computers, I think there maybesome advantage to running designs through a WELL designed simulator. Ifthe model is good, then the results should be reproduced in the cane. Yes,it will be complex to get the model right, but that's what computers are You'll all excuse me now, I've had a long day and I think I'm gettingcranky!:') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 22:06:50 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Bruce,In regards to :If you would like to give me some details about how to procede with theimproved math, I'd be happy to see if I could whip it into some sort ofuseful code. I remember a comment from one of Dr. Graig Spolek's papers which pointedout that Garrison utilized equations based on stiff cantilever beams.Since the deflection of a rod can be an appreciable portion of its lengththe stiff beam equations are totally inadequate to give meaning stressvalues for a flexible rod. There is a closed-form solution for predicting the shape, and hence thebending moments, of a uniform cross-section rod that uses ellipticintegrals. See:2. Bisshopp, K.R. and Drucker, D.C., "Large Deflections of CantileverBeams", Quarterly of Applied Mathematics, V.3 (3), pp 272-275, 1945.There is no closed form expression for tapered cross-sections, but Spolekgives a numerical procedure in:20. Spolek, G.A. and Jefferies, S.R., "Analysis of Large Deflections ofFishing Rods", Proceedings of the International Conference onComputationalMethods and Experimental Measurements, Washington, D.C. pp 637-648,1982. If you have any interest in the complexities of this problem and have somefamiliarity with differential equations check out Dr. Spolek's list ofreferences on Jeff Kommers home page:http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/kommers/refs.html Garrison's plots may give some useful comparisons of different tapers,butin terms of actual stress numbers his equations are in error by orders ofmagnitude. Consequently, anyone who has worked out the true solutiondoesnot believe his math. Gordon Judd There are advantages to being self-taught;Fullerton, CA the quality of instruction is not one ofjudd@cogent.net them. -Ted Leeson- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 23:47:56 1996 Subject: Re: Version 2.0 of the leader program Hans, Back in January, you asked me to make a version of the Leader Calculatorwith millimeter measurements. I finally managed to get it done! Sorry ittook so long, but at least it's early in the fishing season. You can find the new program at the sirronald ftp site under the nameeuroleader.exe. If you don't have Visual Basic, you will also need theVBrun300.DLL at the ftp site. Let me know what you think of the program and if I need to make anychanges to suit the metric peoples of the world. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon Apr 8 23:56:33 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Bruce, I'm sorry that I didn't post this earlier. I do recall you asking forsuggestions. The reason I did not respond is that quite simply there isno way to improve the Garrison Calculations based on anything other thanexperience. If you can use the calculations to design a 7' 4 Wt. fastaction rod and you like the resulting rod you make, who am I to say theequations are wrong. After all "The proof of the pudding is in theeating..." or something like that. A Windows version of Garrison's mathwould be very interesting, both from a historical perspective and as agenerator of useful tapers. If you are interested in reading about somemore recent attempts to model the dynamics of a fly rod, there are manygood references at the web site The Physics of Fly Casting at http://www.mit.edu:8001//people/kommers/refs.html.(This is the same site mentioned in Tom Ausfeld's recent posting.) Youmight try contacting some of the authors and collaborating on a modelingscheme. I would love to see it. I actually have been in contact with a couple of the people mentioned in"The Physics of Flyfishing" page. The page owner put me in touch with afellow who is working on a proper simulator for the rod action (and Iassume he is going to include the existing line action code). The projectis ongoing and he says he'll keep in touch with me about progress. Thewhole thing is going to be in FORTRAN, which is a bit of a pain, but oncethe math is worked out, I bet I could port it over to C++ or Delphi orsomething and make it workable for the PC, even if it would be a bit slowon that platform. The Windows version of the Garrison stuff is being tested by a couple ofbrave beta testers right now and should be available Real Soon Now. I willmake an announcement to the group when it's ready. In the meantime, please make some burnt offerings to the gods of springandget rid of this snow and cold!!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 13:54:06 1996 Subject: Bamboo rod coatings Rod Coatings: Want to try some more experiments and would not like to reinvent thewheel.Has anyone been using Gougeon Brothers products - - Wood ExpoxySaturationTechnique (WEST) or similar products for either rod coatings or reel seatcoatings? Please contact me email: dmanders@cci.net.ab.ca regards, Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 15:22:54 1996 Subject: Reel seat question I want to put a little slot in my wooden reel seats, similar to what the Bellington seats have. So far the only tool I've seen that looks like it would do the job is a bull-nose router bit that cuts a half radius - also called a "fingernail". These bits are expensive, and the only ones I've seen advertised have 1/2" shanks, which means I'd need another router besides the bit. Do any of you know of another way? John Carter from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 18:04:49 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Rod Coatings: Want to try some more experiments and would not like to reinvent thewheel.Has anyone been using Gougeon Brothers products - - Wood ExpoxySaturationTechnique (WEST) or similar products for either rod coatings or reel seatcoatings? Please contact me email: dmanders@cci.net.ab.ca regards, DonDon,Ive tried their epoxy for gluing the strips together and that the sectionscame apart when heat was applied for straightening.I called the companyandthey said that the epoxy had no heat risistance.So one tip section and abutt was thrown in a corner.Last year I was having a cleanup and dragged out the two sections, theyhadbeen there about 4 years.I casually flexed the tip section and felt a crackand with a little more flexing the whole tip came apart a the glue line.I,mcertainly glad I did not sell any rods built with this adhesive.The mixturewas right,I purchased a small job sachet,just mix the 2 together.West system might be OK for a coating , its not a very thin material, Icantimagine it doing too much saturating. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 21:19:45 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Hi Don,Arecent bout of experiments with finishes last year led me to one veryimportant conclusion... any coating I tried on a section at best did not helpthe action and at worst and by far the most common it deadened theaction.Of the epoxies I tried (WEST was not one of them) the soft flexible oneswere the worst.The conclusion I came to was simple and staightforward... epoxy don'tcast(please excuse the grammar).I hope this is of some use to you. A.J. Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 22:00:33 1996 Subject: Re: Reel seat question John There's a subtle difference between a fingernail and a bullnose bit..The outside edges of the cut on a fingernail are slightly rounded where as those of the bullnose are not.. the bit you are looking for, in 1/4 in, I presume, can be found at "Woodline,Inc." You can get a catalog by calling them at 1-800-- 472-6950. The one I received had a tag on the pack that says C1215 but I cant find that part in their book?? Best of luckJerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue Apr 9 23:56:55 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings At 12:26 4/9/96 -0600, you wrote:Rod Coatings: Want to try some more experiments and would not like to reinvent thewheel.Has anyone been using Gougeon Brothers products - - Wood ExpoxySaturationTechnique (WEST) or similar products for either rod coatings or reel seatcoatings? Please contact me email: dmanders@cci.net.ab.ca regards, Don Don,I have used the WEST system to refinish the bottom of a boat (its intendeduse). I WOULD NOT use it to coat a rod or reel seat for a couple reasons.I'll give you a little background. The Gougeons are boat builders inBay City, Mi. and are quite well known in the locale. The WEST System wasdeveloped in Britain and marketed in the States by the Gougeon Bros. Itwasused to coat wooden boats for either repair or reducing maintenancetypically needed on wood in a marine environment. In the early to mid 80'sboaters started to notice osmosis blisters in the polyester gelcoats belowthe waterline. This is where use of the WEST system really took off. Therepair procedure involved grinding out the blisters much like a dentistfilling a tooth, then filling the hole in the gelcoat with the epoxy resinand applying an epoxy undercoat to the entire bottom. The epoxy will breakdown from UV in sunlight so it had to be painted over (the preferredmethod)or aluminum powder had to be mixed in with the resin (not recommendedbelowthe waterline). The sailboaters around Bay City are very familier with theproduct and countless numbers of them have used it.Because it is such a heavy consistancy and the problem of breaking downfromUV I would not use it to coat a bamboo rod. It did do a nice job on thebottom of my boat though.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 00:44:12 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Don,Have used WEST system to refinish 30 yr old wood drift boat. Don't thinkitwoykd work very well on a cane rod, I believe it adds an element ofstiffness, at least when used on plywood panels (I can't tell, but that iswhat local boat builders tell me). In addition, it is actually fairly thickand while the technical literature claims it penetrates fairly well, itdoesn't appear to me that it penetrates very much at all.Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 09:31:19 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings This is a little off topic, but... I was at the newsstand last week and thumbed thru a copy of_Chemical Intelligencer_. There was an article on the debate over the secret of Stradivarius' violins. The author reviews the major theories: design, varnish,and wood treatment, and comes down in favor of the latter.He says that chemical analysis of the wood shows it was treated with several substances, including sea salt andgum arabic. Under the varnish, there was volcanic ashused as a wood filler. Stradivarius bought his varnish from a druggist who supplied several instrument makers. Stradivarius tookhis cup personally to pick up varnish, to make sure hedidn't get the dregs from the bottom of the druggist'spot. Anyway, I wish I would have been able to read the whole thingbut proprieter said "This ain't the library" and I didn'thave $9 for the magazine. ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 10:51:56 1996 Subject: Phillipson help Anyone out there have any experience with Phillipson rods?I'm considering removing an aluminum seat from a Peerless.I know I can cut away the old seat, but I'm wondering ifit's possible to remove it in one piece so that the rodcould be restored to original condition in the future. Anyone know what kind of glue Sam used (probably the nastiest he could find)? Thanks in advance for any adviceor suggestions. richard p.s. Would a standard bore seat from Bellinger or Struble fit without modification? r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 11:05:28 1996 Subject: Re: Phillipson help Supposedly Phillipson used resourcinol and had pronounced glue lines from it; he may well have used it on reel seats too. John Friedman from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 11:46:31 1996 Subject: Re: Guides Ref the low profile, reverse twist guides (English pattern). One source isThe Angler's Workshop, Woodland, WA 1-360-225-6359 (cust svc) and - 8641(fax) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 11:46:35 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations Hello Bruce:Will your program run on Win 3.1? Re Garrison formula discussion - here is an experience. I have a 7-1/2' # 4 that was literally conceived from folly. It was aflawedcy of the excellent Heddon med-fast, a mod 13. Due to some bad, badplaningforms purchased many years ago (and now corrected), the taper has + .006-.008 its full length. The rod is prob a # 4- 1/2 (like was once made) and isdefinitely a fast tiprod, at first, then bends on down to the grip as theload is increased. No prob with #4 DT and # 8 fluffy cork bug to pick up40'+ and lay out 50'+ w/o false cast. And no prob with a # 16 dry up close.Let me hasten to say that of the many who have cast it, only one otherchapand myself like it. Actually, I love it. The point to all this bs is that I decided to duplicate the action in a # 5,8-0, 3-pc. So, using Wayne's program it was done. First, using the taperof the 7- 6, # 4 wannabe, a stress curve was determined. Then printedsame at1" increments to do the excruciating chore of lengthening the curve byinterpolation. Once done, used the new, longer curve to obtain the newdimensions adjusting for 3-pc and heavier line. Before varnishing andwithguides taped on, the rod was tried. As far as I could tell, the action is aspot-on duplicate. What I am not sure of is the line weight, which truelyduplicates the 7-1/2 in that the # 5 seemed a bit light but a #6 seemed abitheavy, but not enough line was out to really lean into it. It has been myexperience that feel changes when a rod is varnished and guides are woundonand wraps varnished. Will know soon, as it is to be completed by end ofApr.Will report findings. The point in all this is that the Garrison formulas appear to function verywell as a transfer vehicle. To bamboo-building programmers out there: Can someone come up with agoodsolution to lengthening or shortening a stress curve? Themanual/calculatormethod works but takes a lot of time. Such a program should be wellreceived Best RegardsRichard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 12:12:26 1996 Subject: Re: Phillipson help Supposedly Phillipson used resourcinol and had pronounced glue lines from it; he may well have used it on reel seats too. John Friedman Actually, Phillipson didn't use resourcinol. He used something nastier.It made glue lines that are even more pronounced. I know it was very resistent to moisture, but I don't know if heat would break it downor not, and if so, would it also break down the glue in the blankunder the reelseat? richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 12:55:18 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations The point in all this is that the Garrison formulas appear to function verywell as a transfer vehicle. To bamboo-building programmers out there: Can someone come up with agoodsolution to lengthening or shortening a stress curve? Themanual/calculatormethod works but takes a lot of time. Such a program should be wellreceived Yes, my program is in fact designed to run on Win 3.1! I have been thinking of a good way to make a "stretch-shrink" function toadd to the program. Haven't come up with a really good method yet, butseveral are looking good. Then there is the database for comparing tapers,the guide placement option, and so on. Lots of things to add! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 14:13:20 1996 Subject: Japanese Contact I am looking to find a source of Fly Fishing magazines in Japan and or aFFFgroup there. Any information would be appreciated Wayne Cattanach from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 14:33:12 1996 Subject: Re: Garrison Calculations I heard something today which I thought applied here." A wise man once said : 'It is better to know something wrong, than to know nothing at all' ". If Garrison's math is "wrong" in certain ways, it is still perhaps the best thing we have. As has been said already by Richard et al it works as a transfer tool. I think Garrison made quite a good start at modeling tapers with mathematics. The next step is to find the flaws and fix them, or start over, now that there is something to fix. Just $0.02Mauro from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 16:07:51 1996 Subject: Re: Reel seat question John, You can make a scraper from a old plane blade/knife etc. and free hand itoruse a file. Was what I did till I could get a proper milling head built formy lathe that would cut the grove.Saw a beading tool in Lee Valley Tools cataloque that might work for yourapplication. The tool can be purchased with blanks so you can build yourownshapes. See page 19 of the 19895/96 catalogue. If you wish their cata. anddon't have it write:Lee Valley ToolsP. O. Box 6295, Stn. JOttawa, Ont. K2A 1T4or call 1-800-668-1807The specilaize in great handtools.Woodcraft in the US may stock what you need as well. No idea how to getintouch with them. Regards, Don A I want to put a little slot in my wooden reel seats, similar to what the Bellington seats have. So far the only tool I've seen that looks like it would do the job is a bull-nose router bit that cuts a half radius - also called a "fingernail". These bits are expensive, and the only ones I've seen advertised have 1/2" shanks, which means I'd need another router besides the bit. Do any of you know of another way? John Carter from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 18:52:58 1996 Subject: Fingernail Router bit The Router bit that I use for reel seat fillers I got from Cascade Tools(800- 235 - 0272) part # C-1215 (1/4 " shaft) - The bit is carbide and costabout$20.00 - Actually when I bought it 6 years ago it cost $14.95 + shipping. Ithas made hundreds of fillers. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 18:53:33 1996 Subject: Computer Calculations In looking I still haven't found the code - but I have rethought theformat for the program. The idea was to depict a antimated deflection board and it includedsomeof the 'fudge' math that is associated with the static method. Startingwitha given load the program would figure deflection using cantilevered beamtheory but would start at the butt and figure deflection using totalmomemts(rod weight and suspended weight) every 1" and then do the geometery tofigure the angular change in rod slope then refigure the next deflection(reflecting angular vectors) and repeat this until the angular change wasequal to 90 degrees (if there was) enough weight to bring the tip to a 90degree vector.Once a program like this were wrote then it could be linked to a timebase emulator to simulate the cast.In reading Dr. Spoleks writings on fly lines and recently on fly rods Isee a fly in the soup - Dr Spolek seems to be trying to maximize theenergyperformance of both line and rods. But there in develops a problem at leastin the way I fly fish. The best illustration I can give is the one that Ishowed Gary La Fontaine in Boston several years ago. In a high velositysystem (rocket rods and lines) any excess energy stored in the fly MUSTdampen itself and how does that happen? Plunge pools. Plunge pools areformedin the surface of the water when the fly line leader connection can't passthe energy fast enough and the tip of the fly line will submerge to releaseexcess energy and send out wakes (ripples) in the surface film. Just whatIneed when I fishing Tricos on mirror surface conditions. On the other handifyou are throwing heavy lines and heavy bugs into strong winds (Steelheadfishing or Saltwater conditions where finesse doesn't count) thenmaximizingperformance does count. Here again knowing what a rod should look like when it is being castwould be helpful. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 19:22:20 1996 Subject: sealing bamboo A couple of years ago I went to a show in Harrisburg pa ,I went as avisitorto meet some friends and support American breweries.I was talking to acrusty spring creek fisherman and I remarked on the number of bamboorods bycontemporary rod makers for sale,he remarked,"none of em are straight".Ichecked around and he was basically right. It was an extremely hot and humid weekend and the building that housedtheshow was like a sauna.Could this be the cause of all the rods twisting off?Im sure the guys never brought them to the show like that.Are the finishesbeing used up to the job?I decided when I got back home I would give itsomeinvestigation. So I was not the only one having trouble straightening sticks and keepingthem straight.I just hated this job,besides sewing the sack that is.Youstraighten the sticks and the twist comes back,not always, and sometimesbefore you put the finish on, sometimes afterward it was neverpridictable."Bamboo has a memory",is how one rodmaker described it to meandit can be worse on hand split rather than saw cut strips. Bamboo is a very hygroscopic material and when made up into a rodsectionthere are more areas for moisture entry. Nodes are filed down creating endgrain along the length as well as the ends.we remove the waxy outercoatingwhich also opens up the grain. The adhesive we use is waterproof but itreadily allows the migration of moisture.Bamboo picks up moisture veryfast,you could build a hygrometer out of the stuff. A bamboo rod will only stay straight if the moisture content it was builtwith does not change.If the rod picks up moisture or looses it throught itsfinish internal stresses will set up and a twist and or kink will develope. We have all seen old rods where the guides are loose and the ferrule needsresetting,often the whipping has come undone.This is due to the finishbreaking down and the bamboo either swelling or shrinking. I honestly believe that the finish as well as a half decent taper is the keyto a good bamboo flyrod. Since that weekind in PA I have been experimenting with variouscompoundsand processes that will seal the bamboo yet not modify it.The Orvisprocesskept the moisture out but did change the action making for a heavier rodanda brittle structure.There is another process using acrylic but I think thiswould also modify the cane.I have been developing a process of my own andItried this out on a blank about a year ago,I ruined the 2 tip sections withsome destructive tests and tossed the butt section in the trunk of my cartoshow a friend in Mass.but I forgot all about it.This was last spring. I found this section a couple of weeks ago underneath a pile of junk whenlooking for some tools.It had been in the trunk for one year,summer andwinter,it was a little out of shape, a tool box was on top of it.I left thesection on my work bench and within 2 days it had returned to its originalstraightness. Have I discovered anything ? I dont know,too early to say.I built a coupleof rods by the same method last summer and before shipping them out Idecided to watch them for a couple of months.They behaved excellentlykeptstraight even when the tips where supported by their ends only at an angleof about 20 deg. for 3 weeks.Tips will generally sag under their ownweightafter this length of time. Terry Ackland. comments welcomed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 20:50:00 1996 Subject: computer aid I know computers are great, if I was not fooling around Writing this on akeyboard I would be in my workshop making some beer money.Is it just me or do others out there feel that too much faith is put incomputers? Where I work computers are working hard filling up blueboxes.Everyone has a computer,no real work seems to get done, just listsandprojections.No wonder all the factories are moving to Mexico nobodywants towork any more, just peer into a monitor. Sailing that is a love of mine; last year at the start of the America cuprace we were told that the USA were using the most powerful computersin theworld to design the sails and hull and yet they were creamed by NZ With all these computer programs flying around for designing flyrods Whyaremany of the rods being produced today inferior to those produced duringthe40s and 50s. Jim Payne or Sam Carlson had no computer. Ok some of todaysrods are better cosmetically but all that glitters is not gold. I think fly casting is like sailing, there are too many variables to producea workable program. Surely as the length of line in the air changes theequation changes. What about wind strength and wind direction. I know this geezer down in Plattsburgh who can lay out an incrediblelengthof line with a broom handle OK the loops not very tight.It would beinteresting to see if you guys with the laptops could design a broomstickthat would remedy this problem? Just a joke lads,my british sense ofhumour. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 21:25:59 1996 Subject: Re: Fingernail Router bit Johnas you can see from Wayne I was refering to a 1/4 shaft-- I believe its refered to as a 1/2 in cut.. If I remember properly I also called Cascade as a reference from Wayne... and .. Get his book !!! also Waynes parts buying guide is online on Bruce conners page after the NO FOOLIN http://www.cybercom.net/%7Ebconner/rod.html Get Waynes book anyway.. I don't own stock..Jerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 22:12:54 1996 Subject: Re: Japanese Contact Wayne, I hope all is well, there is a japanese home page on the 'net somewhere asIvisited it once. I have an office in Japan and I would be happy to ask oneof my associates to send me a mag. You would probably need it translated.Let me know. Regards, James. I am looking to find a source of Fly Fishing magazines in Japan and or aFFFgroup there. Any information would be appreciated Wayne Cattanach from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed Apr 10 22:53:41 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Reference the traffic concerning finish materials: Here is a bit of information concerning finishes. Dick Schiller, a newmember to this list and a new rod maker did a bit of research on thesubjectof finishes. Here is what he sent concerning moisture excludingeffectiveness: "There are two types of water to worry about. One is the vapor type that will penetrate even the smallest intermolecular spaces. The other is gross water that will bead up on a rod or any tough surface. In order of moisture excluding effectiveness, from a study I read a fewweeksago here is the list from best to worst. I am leaving out some items thatwewould neveruse on a rod anyway! 1. Melted parrafin 95% effective2. Two part Epoxy 91% (3coats) 54% (1coat)3. Two part polyurethane gloss varnish 66% (3coat) 0 (Yes zero, 1 coat) (apparently it just fills pores and penetrates at only one coat)4. Epoxy gloss varnish 50% (3 coat) 3% (1 coat)5. Orange shellac 46% (3coat) 2% (1 coat) water can leave marks onshellac6. Polyurethane varnish and Alkyd satin varnish 41% (3coat) 8% (1 coat)7. Phenolic Tung floor sealer -1% (yes, it absorbs water, one coat) 35% 3 coats8. Soya alkyd phenolic/tung gloss spar varnish 30% (3coats) 0 (one coat)9. Acrylic gloss latex varnish 10% (3coats) -1% (1coat)10. Tung oil 2% (3coats) -1% (1 coat)11. Linseed oil 0% (3coats) -5 (1coat) (yes it really absorbs water since it penetrates and forms no coat in pores. It does not polymerize well.12. Furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0% no matter how may coats! from the gospel"Polymerized oil is sometimes used by itself. It cures very fast and very hard and resists water and water-vapor penetration. Many gun owners likethe results they get when they rub this oil (usually sold by names, such as Tru-Oil) onto their gun stocks. Because this oil is hard when cured, its possible to build a film from many thin coats.Problems are.........expensive........cures too fast for furniture on large surfaces........cracks appear if applied in thick layers........not signifigantly better than varnish" I used the Casey stuff and dipped it on. It did crack where it was applied too thickly. Notice that it is not on the list as a polymerized oil. I think it is close to the polyeurethane in a polymerized linseed oil (based on the label). Dick" According to this report there is not much other than melted parafin or2- part epoxy that really does the job we would like. To me the realshockeris the reported performance of tung oil. I've read this was the finish ofchoice for Mr. Nat Uslan (pent builder) who had his shop in Miami, Fla. On the other hand, I am not sure just what X % of moisture exclusioneffectiveness means in terms of moisture transfer and bambooperformance. Regards, Richard Tyree. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 00:25:36 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid Hi Terry,The computer question is quite interesting(along with the finishquestions). As almost everyone I obtained a copy of WC's program lastyear.Although interestig to use I still do the 'real' tapers in my head. After thefirst hundred rods it was amazing how well a taper can be designed byintuition. The nub of the conversation is that I don't think that there isany substitute for experience working with a material that has such awiderange of varied properties as bamboo. I believe that a rodbuilders effortswould be better spent perfecting his knowlege of the material than tryingtoput all of the weird habits that make up bamboos character into strings of0's and 1's.The tapers start out as a rough draft on paper and then the subtlemodifications start.An extra .004 here to carry the load further into the buttsection, swell thetaper .020 there to keep the action forward of a certain point etc.Without at least a bit of an empirical intuition how would anyone guessthat the thick wristed tip on an 8ft 5wt is needed to deliver the power tothe stonger midsection of the rod? It looks odd butt that type of actionneeds that tip to work and the taper still handles light tippets well.Probably enough of my taper ramblings for now. I hope this will get someconversation started about tapers,types and how they arrive to us.Thanks to all,A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 06:33:35 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid Sailing that is a love of mine; last year at the start of the America cuprace we were told that the USA were using the most powerful computersin theworld to design the sails and hull and yet they were creamed by NZ Maybe their program was better. BTW, I think the U.S. has been usingcomputersto design hulls for more than a decade. They won a few. With all these computer programs flying around for designing flyrods Whyaremany of the rods being produced today inferior to those produced duringthe40s and 50s. Emprical testing. Art? I think fly casting is like sailing, there are too many variables to producea workable program. Careful. Not so very long ago they said that computers would never playmasterslevel chess. Terry, I think you are a true curmudgeon! :-)richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from BRAUND@medadmin Thu Apr 11 09:43:29 1996 Organization: Washington University in St. LouisSubject: last nite's runPriority: normal met Kevin, Jeff, Mark and Conrad.ran 3 with Kevin before the others showed up.then ran with Mark and Jeff. After Mark and Jeff went on another loop, saw and talked with Kupf who was riding his bike. Sorry, had to leave early, but a family getogether beckoned. Sorrier still should be Biondo and Orly---no shows extraordinaire. Do we want to set Wed as the standard night? Dave from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 11:09:10 1996 Subject: Rodmakers in western MA Please contact me off the list ifyou know of anyone doing cane rodrestoration work in western Massachusetts.TIArichard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 18:10:20 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmakers in western MA Please contact me off the list ifyou know of anyone doing cane rodrestoration work in western Massachusetts.TIArichard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard Frank Try Bob Taylor (R.D. Taylor) in Turners Falls, MA # used to be (413)863- 8608, but that's old and may not be current. He's a nice guy and aknown name in restoration/building. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 18:16:45 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid Sailing that is a love of mine; last year at the start of the America cuprace we were told that the USA were using the most powerful computersin theworld to design the sails and hull and yet they were creamed by NZ Maybe their program was better. BTW, I think the U.S. has been usingcomputersto design hulls for more than a decade. They won a few. With all these computer programs flying around for designing flyrodsWhy aremany of the rods being produced today inferior to those produced duringthe40s and 50s. Emprical testing. Art? I think fly casting is like sailing, there are too many variables toproducea workable program. Careful. Not so very long ago they said that computers would never playmasterslevel chess. Terry, I think you are a true curmudgeon! :-)richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!*****************************************Thanks Frank,that's the nicest thing I've been called for a long time. game?All I'm trying to do is get some answers, their not biting yet,I'll tryagain later.Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 18:16:55 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Richard,Great stuff. But I have a few questions: 1/ Was the testing conducted by placing the finsh on a semi-permeable membrane (paper) between two enclosed spaces ofdiffering humidity and heat? If it was say 90% humidity on one side and 5% on the other or if the test was conducted for 40 hours...2/ How many cane rod owners will take their beloved rod to the stream without a coat of Butchers wax on it? This seals not only from water vapor but also from DEET and other nasties.3/ Rods spend most of their lives in the slowly fluctuating humidity of the modern, centrally heated home. The end grain of the caneis usually very well sealed, so how much penetration of water vapor is likely to occur? Best regards, Reed Curry******************** 1. Melted parrafin 95% effective2. Two part Epoxy 91% (3coats) 54% (1coat)3. Two part polyurethane gloss varnish 66% (3coat) 0 (Yes zero, 1 coat) (apparently it just fills pores and penetrates at only one coat)4. Epoxy gloss varnish 50% (3 coat) 3% (1 coat)5. Orange shellac 46% (3coat) 2% (1 coat) water can leave marks onshellac6. Polyurethane varnish and Alkyd satin varnish 41% (3coat) 8% (1 coat)7. Phenolic Tung floor sealer -1% (yes, it absorbs water, one coat) 35% 3 coats8. Soya alkyd phenolic/tung gloss spar varnish 30% (3coats) 0 (one coat)9. Acrylic gloss latex varnish 10% (3coats) -1% (1coat)10. Tung oil 2% (3coats) -1% (1 coat)11. Linseed oil 0% (3coats) -5 (1coat) (yes it really absorbs water sinceit penetrates and forms no coat in pores. It does not polymerize well.12. Furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0% no matter how may coats! According to this report there is not much other than melted parafin or2- part epoxy that really does the job we would like. To me the realshockeris the reported performance of tung oil. I've read this was the finish ofchoice for Mr. Nat Uslan (pent builder) who had his shop in Miami, Fla. On the other hand, I am not sure just what X % of moisture exclusioneffectiveness means in terms of moisture transfer and bambooperformance. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 18:34:17 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmakers in western MA Bruce, Thanks, but I think Taylor has moved - to N.Y. stateI think. I called Tom Dorsey today. I may drive upand see him next week. richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 19:01:53 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid ParabolicSimi-ParabolicDry Fly actionWet Fly ActionSlow ActionFast Action If you asked 50 fly fishermen to describe the above actions, chances are you would get 50 different descriptions. Using Waynes program with Garrisons math produces a set of numbers for a given rod. Its up to the maker to decide how these numbers. I have found using stress curves very helpful, they may not duplicate exactly what is going on when I cast one of my rods but they give me an insight into what is happening, and I find that useful. It also helps visualize the action of a rod. The other part of this discussion that I find interesting has not been openly stated yet, tradition versus technology. Some seem to be saying that computers should have no part in bamboo rod making. Others are saying that the technology we are using is not sophisticated enough and to be valid and needs to be improved. As bamboo rod makers today we have to blend tradition and technology with every rod we make. Glues, finishes, impregnation, nodes or no nodes, hardware, hook keepers, winding checks, guide spacing and more.................! These are all decisions that we make with each rod. It seems to me that many quality hand crafted bamboo rods are being made today. As makers we my approach things differently but we still have the same goal, the perfect bamboo rod. I for one, celebrate our different approaches. That is what I like about this group and bamboo rod making, there is always something to be learned. Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 19:27:46 1996 Subject: Chrome Plated Brass Ferrules for Refurbishing Bamboo Flyrods Does anyone have a source, foreign or domestic, for chrome plated brassferrules?I am refurbishing several older flyrods and I don't want to use nickelsilver ferrules. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 19:49:42 1996 Subject: Re: Chrome Plated Brass Ferrules for Refurbishing BambooFlyrods 104261.233@compuserve.com wrote: Does anyone have a source, foreign or domestic, for chrome plated brassferrules?I am refurbishing several older flyrods and I don't want to use nickelsilver ferrules. Check out Anglers Workshop 1-360-225-9445. They have then in a number of sizes. Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 19:49:58 1996 Subject: Computer cane I don't build rods so I should probably stayaway from this thread. Certainly, I know next tonothing - no, nothing - about rod tapers and themath used to construct cane rods. I offer an opinionas one who loves the uniqueness of cane. If you sellrods, I'm your buyer. Much of the discourse about computers and cane has focusedon the adequecy of the programs and their source. I wantto suggest that if you could produce the perfect programto produce the perfect rod, you'd give this all up, and myattention would focus exclusively on the works of old masters. I disagree with whomever it was that said that you are all seekingto build the perfect rod. The idea of the perfect is sure to generatethe same kind of boring uniformity that we find in so many of thesuperbly made products that we buy today. Our automobiles are definitely better, but they are also all alike, and they are by andlarge boring. I don't think the joy of cane is in perfection butrather in it's subtle connection to the sport of fly fishing itself.Cane is an aesthetic. A cane rod is not just an excellent tool. It isa uniquely beautiful and "correct" tool. In an important sense you don'thave to seek the perfect rod because cane rods are already perfect.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 20:40:03 1996 Subject: Some Myths Debunked Actually, the subject line was just an eyecatcher. I don't know any mythsor anyone that bunks with them. But I did have an epiphany recently which I wish to share. In taking my (alleged) Nichols 10' 3pc out for its first lawn exercise after reseating the ferrules I was astounded by the following:1/ Calcutta cane can pack a punch, contrary to rumors.2/ The old rods made with flip-ring guides that were said to be impossible to cast really throw a line when they are wearing snake guides.3/ A 10' 3pc. *can* feel as light as an 8'.4/ In 35 years of trying I still can't cast worth spit, but that rod made me think I could.5/ Large guides do not improve flow of line. As for item #1, the rod cast 10' of S.A. Air Cel Supreme (the white) 5DT, gracefully, and yet I had 55' (measured) of line past the rod tip with just a few false casts ... and no hauling. Understand that I learned to "cast" from a book which instructed me to keep my elbow tight to my side and let the rod and wrist do the work. Now modern rodmaking literature wouldhave us believe that Tonkin cane is superior to Calcutta in the power category; I propose that Tonkin cane presented a cheap alternative to Calcutta (which had 12 bad culms for every good one) and the rest is marketing hype. Item #5 is interesting. I replaced the tiny flip-rings with generousmodern snakes, but placed all winds, including the 6 turn intermediates, as original. However, the tip-top is unique. The last 3/4" of the tip is shaved flat on on side and the tip-top is a tiny ring on a thin, flat 3/4"-long bar. I bound this back on as original. It was very difficult to get the loop-to-loop connection through the tip-top. Yet in casting, the lineflowed effortlessly through this delicate aperture. Whatcha think? Reed P.S. - The rod also cst a 4DT but it didn't feel as easy, nor cast quite as well. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 21:12:30 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Reference the traffic concerning finish materials: Here is a bit of information concerning finishes. Dick Schiller, a newmember to this list and a new rod maker did a bit of research on thesubjectof finishes. Here is what he sent concerning moisture excludingeffectiveness: "There are two types of water to worry about. One is the vapor type that will penetrate even the smallest intermolecular spaces. The otheris gross water that will bead up on a rod or any tough surface. In order of moisture excluding effectiveness, from a study I read a fewweeksago here is the list from best to worst. I am leaving out some items thatwewould neveruse on a rod anyway! 1. Melted parrafin 95% effective2. Two part Epoxy 91% (3coats) 54% (1coat)3. Two part polyurethane gloss varnish 66% (3coat) 0 (Yes zero, 1 coat) (apparently it just fills pores and penetrates at only one coat)4. Epoxy gloss varnish 50% (3 coat) 3% (1 coat)5. Orange shellac 46% (3coat) 2% (1 coat) water can leave marks onshellac6. Polyurethane varnish and Alkyd satin varnish 41% (3coat) 8% (1 coat)7. Phenolic Tung floor sealer -1% (yes, it absorbs water, one coat) 35% 3 coats8. Soya alkyd phenolic/tung gloss spar varnish 30% (3coats) 0 (one coat)9. Acrylic gloss latex varnish 10% (3coats) -1% (1coat)10. Tung oil 2% (3coats) -1% (1 coat)11. Linseed oil 0% (3coats) -5 (1coat) (yes it really absorbs water sinceit penetrates and forms no coat in pores. It does not polymerize well.12. Furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0% no matter how may coats! from the gospel"Polymerized oil is sometimes used by itself. It cures very fast and very hard and resists water and water-vapor penetration. Many gun ownerslike the results they get when they rub this oil (usually sold by names, such as Tru-Oil) onto their gun stocks. Because this oil is hard when cured, its possible to build a film from many thin coats.Problems are.........expensive........cures too fast for furniture on large surfaces........cracks appear if applied in thick layers........not signifigantly better than varnish" I used the Casey stuff and dipped it on. It did crack where it was applied too thickly. Notice that it is not on the list as a polymerized oil. I think it is close to the polyeurethane in a polymerized linseed oil (based on the label). Dick" According to this report there is not much other than melted parafin or2- part epoxy that really does the job we would like. To me the realshockeris the reported performance of tung oil. I've read this was the finish ofchoice for Mr. Nat Uslan (pent builder) who had his shop in Miami, Fla. On the other hand, I am not sure just what X % of moisture exclusioneffectiveness means in terms of moisture transfer and bambooperformance. Regards, Richard Tyree. polymerized tung oil is tung oil that has had a cooking process and somedriers added. The problem with any of these reactive finishes, that iswhatthey are called, continue to polymerize until they self destruct. You haveseen old rods that the finish has melted or turned sugary, these are oldtung oil varnishes.Reactive oil finishes also add moisture to the canebecause polymerization requires oxygen from the the air and if thesurrounding air is humid..... Finish I'm absolutely positive is the key.Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:24:03 1996 Subject: Re: Chrome Plated Brass Ferrules for Refurbishing BambooFlyrods Hello ?:Try either E Hille - The Angler's Supply House @ 717-323-7564 orNetcraft @800-638-2723. They listed Nickle Plated Brass in the latest catalogsthat Ihave. Regards - RT from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:26:33 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings In a message dated 96-04-11 19:16:51 EDT, you write: Richard,Great stuff. But I have a few questions: 1/ Was the testing conducted by placing the finsh on a semi-permeable membrane (paper) between two enclosed spaces ofdiffering humidity and heat? If it was say 90% humidity on one side and 5% on the other or if the test was conducted for 40 hours... Beats me. Will see if Dick Schiller will expound on the tests from whichcame the report. However, he is out of pocket for awhile, but will inquirewhen we next communicate if he will do so. 2/ How many cane rod owners will take their beloved rod to the stream without a coat of Butchers wax on it? This seals not only from water vapor but also from DEET and other nasties. Tell us about Butchers wax - I've no experience w/it. 3/ Rods spend most of their lives in the slowly fluctuating humidity of the modern, centrally heated home. The end grain of the caneis usually very well sealed, so how much penetration of water vapor islikely to occur? A good point well taken. Also, as mentioned, don't really know what thenumbers mean. A couple of questions, for example, are: With welltemperedcane in a rod, just how much intercellular water can be taken on? What ifany real effect does such moisture have on the rod's action? If usefulnumbers were available for those questions, then how would they beaffected Isthat a total of absorption or a rate of same? If total, over what period oftime - forever? Blither, blither - I'm off to the shop; but still, 2 % inMiami, Fla seems amazing. Regards Reed,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:27:12 1996 4-11 20:44:11 EDT, you write: I don't think the joy of cane is in perfection butrather in it's subtle connection to the sport of fly fishing itself.Cane is an aesthetic. A cane rod is not just an excellent tool. It isa uniquely beautiful and "correct" tool. In an important sense you don'thave to seek the perfect rod because cane rods are already perfect.richard Not taking sides, but I have never before seen it expressed so well. Regards, R Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:52:59 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid Terry,et al,I made 6 or 8 8', 3 pc. for 7 or 8 wgt. lines. One I could false cast110' of line and still get a fairly gentle cast with it at 30'. I haven'tbeen able to duplicate it since. The tapers were all within .003-.004 ofoneanother, the finish and heat treatment were practically the same and onlytheone rod gave me that performance. The only difference may have been theculm.Any way, I guess that's why this silly cane rod infatuation is so catching.BTW, Terry you are a ruddy curmudgeon, keep it up- we tend to takeourselves too seriously at times(I too have some serious doubts as to theefficacy of computers-but now that I have a Mac 580cd does any one havea Maccompatible program?).Thanks to all, the humor(colonial spelling,Terry) and civility of thislist make ir great,Hank Woolman from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:53:35 1996 Subject: Re: Computer cane I disagree with whomever it was that said that you are all seekingto build the perfect rod. The idea of the perfect is sure to generatethe same kind of boring uniformity that we find in so many of thesuperbly made products that we buy today. Our automobiles aredefinitely better, but they are also all alike, and they are by andlarge boring. I don't think the joy of cane is in perfection butrather in it's subtle connection to the sport of fly fishing itself.Cane is an aesthetic. A cane rod is not just an excellent tool. It isa uniquely beautiful and "correct" tool. In an important sense you don'thave to seek the perfect rod because cane rods are already perfect. Well said! Indeed, the idea of building the "perfect" rod is something of anon-starter, because to me, at least, the perfect rod would only work forone place, one situation. I suppose I could have a few hundred rods an lugem around and say, "hmmm let me see... I'm at the big tree near the bridgeand the water is low. That uses rod #3498!Unlimbering the massive 20 rod case I habitually carry, I would extracttherod, put on the line (tapered for just this spot, with matching leader) andproceed to snag my #20 blue wing olive in a willow on my backcast.Perfect! So that kind of perfection is out. The kind of perfection that is not outis the type that makes it right and proper to use cane and use feathers andfur from other beast and fowl to enjoy the fun of fishing. This grass fromthe other side of the world, supplied to us by nature almost as if it weremeant to be. And yet it is up to us to work it, glue it, and make it doour bidding. A hunter/gatherer lurks just beneath the surface of us all. He knew thecircularity of life alright! If he didn't, you wouldn't be here today. Isit any wonder we should get the same thrill as out ancestors when theymadethat first mental connection that allowed them to be at the right place atthe right time, not by instinct, but by cunning? If this were just about catching fish, I'd last about 10 minutes. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 22:53:44 1996 Subject: Re: Some Myths Debunked Actually, the subject line was just an eyecatcher. I don't know any mythsoranyone that bunks with them. But I did have an epiphany recently which Iwish to share. Hah! I had epiphany when I was a child and I'm immune. It was veryenlightening... Now modern rodmaking literature would have usbelieve that Tonkin cane is superior to Calcutta in the power category; Ipropose that Tonkin cane presented a cheap alternative to Calcutta(whichhad 12 bad culms for every good one) and the rest is marketing hype. I have looked at Calcutta cane and I'm not sure I would want to work withit. The nodes, at least on the samples I have seen, were very knobby andthe overall diameter of the culm was pretty weeny. Maybe the stuff theyused to use was bigger and the nodes were less pronounced. Anybody know Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 23:01:07 1996 Subject: Normal Ramblings The perfect rod - the perfect rod is a state of mind. I don't think that we are trying to be perfectionists here. A betterdescription might be the enjoyment of the pursuit for perfection - thechallenge of the chase. I don't make rod for the same reason that a personstands in an assembly line bolting parts on a car. Bamboo rod making is anextension of my fly fishing experience - which I hold as sacred ground.Applying a Snoopy comic I saw once "Bamboo rod making is like peeingyourpants in a dark suit - You get a warm feeling but few notice". The rodmakers list is unique in that for the first time one can sharetheir thoughts and ideas (or get help)with so many at one time. Andwhether Iagree or disagree I enjoy the fact that alot of us can hang out together andchat. Another Michigan flyfisher once wrote of his fishing vechicle - I canappreciate the quality of a finely made car. Perhaps a "Beamer" mightmake anappropiate rod case for a woody. Just throw a trailer hitch on it forpullingthe riverboats.Speaking of riverboats. I have used West System several times buildingand restoring the boats we use. But I wouldn't consider it for a rod finish -too thick. The thickness of the finish on most rods is only about .002" -.003" per flat. I apply my finish at about .00225" wet film - because it isonly about 50 percent solids the dry film is about .001125". I figure that Isand about half that off preparing for the second coat. So my totalthicknessis about 2 mils per flat. My friend "The Woodchuck" uses epoxy (Enviro-Tex)on his nets and I'm told that it amounts to about .007" surface film. On theboats it is about .020" per coat. The problem that I see would be adeadeningof action because of the percentage of non active material.If and when some one (Jerry) has a computer program that runs on aMac- a local friend would be interested in getting a copy. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu Apr 11 23:53:56 1996 Subject: Re: Normal Ramblings WayneI assume your request is for a MAC program.. like HEXROD..?? Or just some program. I enlisted a friends help to complete hexrod (MAC). He's doing it in HExcel on a Dumb Operating System so it will be applicable to both platforms. as a matter of fact I have a semi-tech question. Ferrel locations.. I asked him to add a field for Rod Length and then divide it by the no. of sections to find the locations..??? I think you just ask for the nearest in. Good,Bad?? .He gave me a beta sample yesterday and it really looks hot..like some of the others it gives you direct graphs, saves the data, and makes dynamic changes, it will also graph slopes (thanx Darryl) It'll still be a couple of weeks. I'll get the first copy to you(Wayne) to check out. I've been busy messing with HTML to keep rodmakers online..WWWDoes anyone think an unhosted chatroom would be of any benefit. you could set your own meeting times and carry on some of this dialogue in semi-real- time.Or any other Ideas??Jer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 08:00:11 1996 Subject: Re: Computer cane I disagree with whomever it was that said that you are all seekingto build the perfect rod. The idea of the perfect is sure to generatethe same kind of boring uniformity that we find in so many of thesuperbly made products that we buy today. Our automobiles aredefinitely better, but they are also all alike, and they are by andlarge boring. I don't think the joy of cane is in perfection butrather in it's subtle connection to the sport of fly fishing itself.Cane is an aesthetic. A cane rod is not just an excellent tool. It isa uniquely beautiful and "correct" tool. In an important sense you don'thave to seek the perfect rod because cane rods are already perfect.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu I'll admit it, I said "Perfect". I meant it the context of striving to build the best rod that I am able to. I did not mean in the since that there is a "perfect bamboo rod". As Harry Middleton writes about striving for the magic through fly fishing, there is the same kind of magic in bamboo rods for me. UThe angler hopes for nothing and prays for everything; he expects nothing and accepts all that comes his way. And although he knows all along that he will never sink his hook into a trout stream's true mystery, the desire to try, to cast once more and once more again, is never quenched, for there is always that chance that one more cast will carry him beyond skill and luck and bring him untarnished magic.U Harry Middleton, The Earth Is Enough, 1989 Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 08:06:36 1996 Subject: Guide summary Hello all, A couple weeks ago, I queried about single foot guides. Here's how it turned out. I recieved the guide foot adhesive from flexcoat, it worked great. I glued on all the guides, (I had to redo two for alignment). At this point I strung the rod and checked for spacing, I doubt it would handle the stress of an actual cast, but no guides came unglued while putting tension on the line. Then wrapped the guides and finished. Worked great, I'm quite happy with the results. Better yet my son (8 yr old reciepient of the rod) is extremely excited and can't wait to test cast it, it was a shame we got a snow storm at the same time the wrap finish dried. Poor guy, hopefully tonite.Usual disclaimers apply (regarding Flexcoat, no finacial ties, blah, blah). Thamks to all who replied. Now one final question - I would like to write on the rod (i.e. line weight, his name etc), What would you recommend? thanks One final note regarding computers and such, as for building rods, I can live with them or without them. Seeing stuff modeled by science and math is cool, ( oh great, the cat's out of the bag, I'm a nerd) but nothing beats intuition and experience.But this forum is an excellent example of the good computers can do!Keep up the great work Bruce.Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 09:28:14 1996 Subject: Re: Computer cane Johnathan, Apologies, I wasn't trying to single you or anyone else out.I was quite sure that you didn't mean "perfect"in an abstract, ideal sense. My main point inresponse to the thread about whether or notcomputer programs are capable of producing"perfect" taper designs is that it might bewise not to pursue it for fear that they can because,if they can, that result undermines the very craftthat all of you wonderful folks love. I once demonstrated to one of my children thattic/tac/toe is always a tie game if both sidesplay in a perfectly logical manner. She patientlyobserved and finally agreed that I was right. Thenshe said, "You made your point Dad, but you've alsotaken all the fun out of game."richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 09:56:48 1996 Subject: Re: Normal Ramblings I've been busy messing with HTML to keep rodmakers online..WWWDoes anyone think an unhosted chatroom would be of any benefit. youcould set your own meeting times and carry on some of this dialogue insemi-real-time. One of the advantages to the listserve is that the info gets archived andwe can go back and look at it later when we need to. Using IRC is great etc.) but it leaves no record. I say keep the listserve. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 13:22:03 1996 Subject: Re: Japanese Contact James -Thanks for your response - Shortly I will be sending of list of classmembers for this fall (9/16 - 9/22) - It looks like Luis Marden will bereturning this year for that week. I would be interested in getting my hands on a fly fishing magazinefromJapan (translation not a problem). The purpose is to make contact withsomeof the shops over there. Currently a half of my video sales are there andI'mconsidering a possible class over there. Personally I am in the normal scramble getting as many rods ready forspring delivery as I can. Hopefully all is well with you. I'm sure that youare looking forward to the coming spring activities. Thanks for the Help Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 16:43:06 1996 Subject: Re: Normal Ramblings The perfect rod - the perfect rod is a state of mind. I don't think that we are trying to be perfectionists here. A betterdescription might be the enjoyment of the pursuit for perfection - thechallenge of the chase. I don't make rod for the same reason that apersonstands in an assembly line bolting parts on a car. Bamboo rod making isanextension of my fly fishing experience - which I hold as sacred ground.Applying a Snoopy comic I saw once "Bamboo rod making is like peeingyourpants in a dark suit - You get a warm feeling but few notice". The rodmakers list is unique in that for the first time one can sharetheir thoughts and ideas (or get help)with so many at one time. Andwhether Iagree or disagree I enjoy the fact that alot of us can hang out togetherandchat. Another Michigan flyfisher once wrote of his fishing vechicle - I canappreciate the quality of a finely made car. Perhaps a "Beamer" mightmake anappropiate rod case for a woody. Just throw a trailer hitch on it forpullingthe riverboats.Speaking of riverboats. I have used West System several times buildingand restoring the boats we use. But I wouldn't consider it for a rod finish-too thick. The thickness of the finish on most rods is only about .002" -.003" per flat. I apply my finish at about .00225" wet film - because it isonly about 50 percent solids the dry film is about .001125". I figure thatIsand about half that off preparing for the second coat. So my totalthicknessis about 2 mils per flat. My friend "The Woodchuck" uses epoxy (Enviro-Tex)on his nets and I'm told that it amounts to about .007" surface film. Ontheboats it is about .020" per coat. The problem that I see would be adeadeningof action because of the percentage of non active material.If and when some one (Jerry) has a computer program that runs on aMac- a local friend would be interested in getting a copy. So Wayne ABOUT .00225 of wet varnish which drys to ABOUT .001125 andyousand about half of that off about .000562? If 6 decimal places ABOUT toyouI would like to see you when your FUSSY It's good to see you have not changed since I last saw you. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 20:27:57 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Reed,What is Butchers wax?Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 20:47:15 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings What is Butchers wax?Mike in PDX Butchers is the brand name of a paste wax used forfurniture and most notibly for bowling alleys. I wanted to respond to your question because afurniture maker friend put me on to a similarpaste wax made for dark woods. The good thing aboutit is that it leaves no white residue, and you can evenuse it on lighter tone woods without affecting theircolor. Minwax is the producer I'm familiar with. Itcomes in a large round can and it will probably lastyou a lifetime even if you use it on your furniture.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 21:00:58 1996 Subject: Japanese market Taylor he is doing very well over there,he showed me some pics of aJapanesefilm crew making a documentary about him.They love his rods over thereandrightly so the man is a professional,I admire him greatly.A soft spokenmodest gentleman. He remarked that the Japanese pay well and they pay up front but they arepicky, picky,picky.So if any of you out there and feel your rods shape upthen give it a try.p.s dont try to bullshit the Japs,its not part of there culture.T Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri Apr 12 21:06:45 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings Reed,What is Butchers wax?Mike in PDX Mike and Bruce,It may not be available by that name in your area. It is a paste furniture/floor wax made up largely of Carnauba with mineral spirits. Available in clear or brown, it is very hard once buffed and really gives that extra protection to a finish. Also it smells good. So the ritual of waxing your fly rod every few trips is not a chore. Use sparingly.Another non-secret is Albolene. The old-timers sometimes coatedsilk lines with it before storage. It would, perhaps, make a good line dressing. You are probably familiar with it as the nifty fly floatant in the squeeze 1/2 oz. bottles for $2.50. A large tub (16 oz?) costs about $9 in the local drugstore.I'm saddened that Terry was able to acquire his curmudgeon label so easily. I'd been rather hoping to be first. Ah, well. There's probably room on the list for two. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 13 09:07:29 1996 Subject: Wax -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- My feeling is that Butcher's does not contain more than 10% Carnauba.I use the following. 1/2 Beeswax, 1/2 Carnauba add to this 5% Paraffinthen some turpentine and a good lick of mineral oil. Pour 2 0z of goodscotch in a separate glass. Place ingredients (except scotch) in pyrexcontainer and nuke until liquid in the microwave. Keep extinguisherhandy just in case. Sip libation while concoction is cooling. One couldeven add a little scent if wanted. This is a good hard wax but not sohard that only power buffing would work. I use straight Carnauba inother applications and it has such a high melting point that it takespower buffing to get it to flow. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 13 10:26:10 1996 Subject: Re: Normal Ramblings BruceThanks for the reply..My intention was not to replace the list but offer an additional alt.. I agree about a ICR alone.. I guess I was under the misunderstanding that we were loosing the list proc also. Obviously not..SorryJerry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 13 10:57:14 1996 Subject: Re: Normal Ramblings BruceThanks for the reply..My intention was not to replace the list but offeran additional alt.. I agree about a ICR alone.. I guess I was under themisunderstanding that we were loosing the list proc also. Obviouslynot..SorryJerry Well, my comments on IRC still hold. People will exchange great ideas inreal time and then they will vanish into the mists of time. A few bravesouls will transcribe the sessions and ideas for a while, but since it isrepitition for some, it won't happen for long. With the list I never missanything, even if I go away for a week. And since each post is a gem ofgleaming truth (OK ok...), it would be shame to miss even one. Just my $.02 :') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 13 14:28:48 1996 Subject: Steel Planing Forms Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:58:38 From: James Meier Subject: Steel Planing Forms Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:50:02 From: James Meier Subject: Steel Planing Forms I want to move up to steel planing forms. There are several localmachinists who are equipped and capable of making them for me. Before Ihavethis done I would like some more information based on experiences, likes,dislikes, recommendations, and suggestions on how they should be built.Something like, if you had to do it over again what would you do different?I welcome any and all input.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat Apr 13 19:37:37 1996 Subject: Re: Wax JOhn,Can a good, tawny port be substituted for the scotch?Reed My feeling is that Butcher's does not contain more than 10% Carnauba.I use the following. 1/2 Beeswax, 1/2 Carnauba add to this 5% Paraffinthen some turpentine and a good lick of mineral oil. Pour 2 0z of goodscotch in a separate glass. Place ingredients (except scotch) in pyrexcontainer and nuke until liquid in the microwave. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 09:44:30 1996 Subject: Re: Steel Planing Forms rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu wrote: Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:58:38 From: James Meier Subject: Steel Planing Forms Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:50:02 From: James Meier Subject: Steel Planing Forms I want to move up to steel planing forms. There are several localmachinists who are equipped and capable of making them for me. Before Ihavethis done I would like some more information based on experiences,likes,dislikes, recommendations, and suggestions on how they should be built.Something like, if you had to do it over again what would you dodifferent?I welcome any and all input.Jim Dear Jim: I have used a number of different types of steel forms and myrecommendation is that you will do your best work on well made and well dressed steel adjustableforms. The one real abomination of a rod that I ever made was made on wooden forms. Idont' ever show that one to anyone. The Garrison design is tricky for a lot of machinests. The making of the differential screws and the drilling and taping of the screw holes iscritical. Slipshod machine work here means sloppy fit and shifting dimensions. Ifproperly done differential screws are ok, but beware. The Garrison design is (l) tooshort, (2) the taker is not fine enough (extend the tip end another 5 inches using thesame taper) andf it has (3) too few intermediate (2 1/2 inch spacing for the smell. I findthat the puch and pull screw system locks the form into a firm non-shifting taper, andis considerably faster and easier in setting your taper. One caution here. There must be adowl pin at each screw station to prevent the two bars from caming. I would suggestthat you contact by e-mail Frank Armbruster at bootstrap@earthlink.net, and checkout his form. It is quite inexpensive, and well made. I think it is well worthconsidering. The one caution here is that to surface grind to absolute flatness the two barswould make the cost of the form prohibitvely expensive, so Frank does not do it. Thereforeto get a well tuned form it will be necessary to spend a few hours draw filing thesurface. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 10:28:40 1996 Subject: The Perfect Cane Rod "This is written only to show that an experienced fly fisherman will not always choose a really good rod, and, in fact, does not alwaysrecognize a rod's shortcomings, even when casting with it, until he feels a better rod. The author can plead guilty to this, and therefore knows whereof he speaks.""Lest the reader become too discouraged let me say that one can fish beautifully with a rod which is not perfection, but at the expense of undue physical exertion. FOr years I fished fished with what I now realize were very poor rods, but I found that I could place a fly as accurately as the next man, and execute the curve casts and the other neccessities of fly fishing. Only when I acquired the unusually excellent rod I speak of, was I aware of the greater ease with which these things could be done." from "Any Luck" by Eugene Connett (1933 - Windward House) Boy, can I identify with this. Only in my case, I've gone through this cycle a dozen times. Part of my problem is that I might know a rod is excellent, because of others casting with ease with it, so I assume it should suit me. I'll blunder through a season with this rod before I admit that, while the rod is good, it doesn't suit my casting rhythm (such as itis).But the pursuit is the game. Reed Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 10:55:28 1996 Subject: Re: The Perfect Cane Rod rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu wrote: "This is written only to show that an experienced fly fishermanwillnot always choose a really good rod, and, in fact, does not alwaysrecognizea rod's shortcomings, even when casting with it, until he feels a betterrod. The author can plead guilty to this, and therefore knows whereof hespeaks.""Lest the reader become too discouraged let me say that one canfishbeautifully with a rod which is not perfection, but at the expense ofunduephysical exertion. FOr years I fished fished with what I now realize werevery poor rods, but I found that I could place a fly as accurately as thenext man, and execute the curve casts and the other neccessities of flyfishing. Only when I acquired the unusually excellent rod I speak of, wasIaware of the greater ease with which these things could be done." from "Any Luck" by Eugene Connett (1933 - Windward House) Boy, can I identify with this. Only in my case, I've gone throughthis cycle a dozen times. Part of my problem is that I might know a rodisexcellent, because of others casting with ease with it, so I assume itshould suit me. I'll blunder through a season with this rod before I admitthat, while the rod is good, it doesn't suit my casting rhythm (such as itis).But the pursuit is the game. Reed Curry Dear Reed: The proof of the pudding is in the eating. A good rod is more than a famousmaker's name or elegance of finish. One of the sweetest rods I ever cast was atwo piece Montague Sunbeam. It was a miserable excuse for competentworkmanship, but it cast like a dream. Another rod by a very famous rodbuilder who shall remainnameless lest I be accused of blasphemey was the most miserable example of rod action Iever saw. Still as Connett indicated some of the rod's performance must necessarily restwith the man. Ralph from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 15:39:20 1996 Subject: perfect fishing pole The consensus is by an overwhelming majority that graphite makes theperfectfly rod.So few of the fly fishermen that have grown up with compositeshaveshown any interest in bamboo that in actual fact it is on the "loony fringe"to most. To keep bamboo rod making alive the graphite fly fishermen must startgraduating to bamboo but at the moment there is not much sign of that. The book has kept rodmaking alive for 20 years but if Dickerson hadwrittenit would it have been a little more vibrant? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 16:00:35 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo rod coatings I guess everything that goes in and/or on the rod will affect the action. Doubtless the older rodmakers took this into account in planning their tapers; e.g., how many intermediates, of how many winds. In the olderbooks on rods there is discussion of varnishes (is "coachman's" superior, or a blend of gums and resins, some copal here, some lac, there?). Just assome luthier's propose that Strads were made with an impregnation ofwaterglass, so rodmakers try to ascertain the exact composition of Ed Payne'svarnish. Dis is fun stuff! But it might be simplified by starting with a question: Is a surface finish superior, for your purposes, to a penetrating finish? Both have advantages: the glaze is aesthetically pleasing and protects the glue lines, the penetrant pleases some and is easier to maintain, but the windings may not bond as well and the glue line is unprotected. Orperhaps you might use an oil/varnish mix which penetrates yet sets up on thesurface. Reedjust picked this thread up again Reed,I have an old magazine here dating from the 50s, the writer takes usthroughthe Payne workshop and all the processes. The heat treatment process wasasecret and so was a solution that was put onto the blanks that accordingtothe author kept out all moisture. Payne used varnish, he was famous for that but it looks like he used asealer of some sort.Terry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 18:29:52 1996 Subject: Re: perfect fishing pole The consensus is by an overwhelming majority that graphite makes theperfectfly rod.So few of the fly fishermen that have grown up with compositeshaveshown any interest in bamboo that in actual fact it is on the "loonyfringe"to most. Graphite makes no more a perfect rod than bamboo. Consesus does notdictate truth in my neck of the woods. To keep bamboo rod making alive the graphite fly fishermen must startgraduating to bamboo but at the moment there is not much sign of that. Odd, I've had over 2000 hits on my web page in just a few short months. I, bamboo rods as a fashionable thing-to-do. We don't need zillions of peopleto keep bamboo alive. It could well be the worst thing to happen tobamboobuilding. The book has kept rodmaking alive for 20 years but if Dickerson hadwrittenit would it have been a little more vibrant? Hmmm sounds like more flame-bait to me! :') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 20:18:26 1996 Subject: Re: computer aid Your message reminds me - Ron PArch, a cane rodmaker in HAstingsMichigan= (who is not on the Internet) asked me to inquire of all you me) about the PARA-17 tapering formula for cane rods. Charlie Butter On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Jonathan Clarke wrote: ParabolicSimi-ParabolicDry Fly actionWet Fly ActionSlow ActionFast Action are you would get 50 different descriptions. Using Wayne=B9s with Garrison=B9s math produces a set of numbers for a given rod.It=B9s= up to the maker to decide how these numbers. I have found using of a rod. openly stated yet, tradition versus technology. Some seem to be goal, the perfect bamboo rod. about this group and bamboo rod making, there is always something be learned. Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun Apr 14 20:53:20 1996 Subject: Re: Steel Planing Forms Ralph has brought up a good point - fine tuning metal forms. I have doneit several times both for myself (I own 10 sets) and others. It is a fairlyeasy thing to do but caution should prevail. First lets look at the toolsneeded. 1) 12" flat bastard file1) 6" triangle mill file1) straight edge1) set feeler gauges1) 60 degree center gauge1) machinist square In preparing the files the first thing to do is mount a handle on theflat bastard. Just as the teeth of the file end it is soft enough to drill.So drill and countersink a hole large enough for a #10 wood screw andthenscrew a block of wood to the one side of the file for a handle.The triangle file I epoxy glue to a piece of nylon (it will hold for awhile) - which will act as an indicator for keeping the file level in the Vof the form.I first surface the forms (fully closed) with the flat bastard. Keep thefile as straight to the forms as possible don't file across the forms. Byfiling straight with the forms you have less chance of rocking the file androunding the surface. I simply start at the front of the form and work totheother end. A light amount of downward pressure is all you need. Too muchandyou will lose control. The key is to watch the abrasion marks - when itmeetswith the V it's time to move further down the forms. I often check thesurface with a straight edge to make sure that I'm not rocking the file andcreating a rounded surface. Once the two surfaces are done then it's time for the V's. There are twothings to watch the first is that the file is being pulled (that's right -pulled) creating a V that is correct to the surface - check it often with a60 degree center gauge and square. The second - DON'T FILE TOO MUCHAWAY -especially at the tip. To start the V's - first separate the forms so that the matching innersurfaces are spread by .070" (use the feeler gauges for setting). Thereason Then gently pull the triangle file d