from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 01:43:28 1996 Subject: Re: Anybody cast a Paul Young Para-15? In a message dated 96-04-30 21:55:50 EDT, you write: .Schweibert also notes that some of the PetM para rods had staggeredferrules, i.e. the butt section was significantly shorter than the tip. Iwonder how this relates to A.J.'s earlier comment about the lower ferrulebeing right in the way in a three-piece para? Have builders experimentedwith staggered ferrules on any tapers, para or otherwise? There'sanothervariable to plug into the program... Hi Rodger,The stagerred ferrule was not a neccessary part of my para tapers. PMthought it was and I won't argue with them. The acknowleged masters ofthepara tapers was Payne and Young neither thought the stagered ferrule wasneeded. The most obvious problem with staggered ferrules is A) onehelluvaferrule plug and B) the public won't buy them. The biggest problem is B).This is still a business and if the bamboo buying public won't buy it youcan't keep producing them. A para rod has a flexible lower 1/3, a stiff mid 1/3 and a reasonablystouttip to deliver the power. The tip is always a compromise. PY's para's werereasonably close to this ideal but he realized that a rod had to be pleasantto use or it would not fly(see B above). PM's para's are much closer to themaximum taper and are ALOT harder to use. It can become comical to see anewcane rod enthusiast use a PM without a bit of coaching. Even now Ihesitateto send out a para rod as they are disagreeable to some people. I havetradedthem back for a dry fly taper on more than one occasion. I am happy to doitas the purchaser at least gave it a try.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 01:46:23 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo Convert Welcome to the real world of bamboo. Once the bug bites you it is almostimpossible to shake. When sell all of your graphite because it is 'missingsomething' the disease has progressed nicely.A.J.Thramer from INFOSYS!INFOSYSPO!BWATKINS@msatt.attmail.com Wed May 106:29:41 1996 Subject: Re: RODMAKERS You should still be okay Bill, the list has just been realquiet today. Yup. it looks ok. Sorry to bother you. Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 06:50:21 1996 Subject: Re: wet cane -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- TerryPayne did in fact soak his cane---the main reason was Jim made hisown saw blades for the beveler from high carbon steel which does nothold up to friction well at all. The blades woud dull after only a fewstrips were cut---unless the cane was damp. Leonard also did the same.Don't forget this was before carbide blades were developed. High carbonhad to be used account of the set of the teeth of the blade----Highspeed steel teeth cannot be set as a carbon blade can, they will break.Jed -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Wednesday, 24-Apr-96 06:04 PM From: Ackland Terence \ Internet: (hexagon@odyssee.net) Subject: wet cane I read with interest last week on the list about Paynes method ofsoakinghis bamboo in water for 24 hours and I decided to investigate. It is true Payne did soak the cane but it was Nellie Payne, Jim'scousin,she collected the scrap bamboo and made baskets and carpet beaters. Soaking cane is an old basketmaking trick I can remember doing it atschool, or was it reform school. Actually bamboo was soaked in water for 24 hrs prior to the phenolicimpregnation proccess. This soaking swelled the fibers makingpressureimpregnation of the water soluble resins easier. It was Wes Jordan not Payne that developed the phenolic impregnationproccess for flyrods but the proccess had been in use for years inotherapplications. Regards,Terry Ackland -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 06:51:19 1996 Subject: Re: simple tapers -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Thursday, 25-Apr-96 05:02 PM From: Ackland Terence \ Internet: (hexagon@odyssee.net) Subject: Re: simple tapers Original Terry,=I would like one question answered from you computer kids,==Does any of the computer programs take into account the moisturecontentand=temper of the bamboo? unless this is addressed nothing will makesense.==regards,=Terry Ackland=How do you figure out your tapers? Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu Terry, I started building garrison tapers like everyone else using the sameheattreatment, same everything. It did not take too many rods before Istarteddeveloping my own tapers and equipment. I took the trouble to askseniorfly fishermen who fished bamboo, I handled a few classic rods andtook it from there. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to put together a roddespitewhat you read on this list. I keep my Garrisons forms and for some strange reason his nodestaggeringthe rest I have discarded, developing my own equipment andproccesses. The book is a good introduction, there are easier ways to buildbambooflyrods. I think it was Sam Carlson who said, "Garrison maderodbuildingso difficult for himself, if it was that difficult there would be nobamboo rods". I have been building rods without getting involved with with any ofthebuilding groups and newsletters and I believe it has been verybeneficial.I think that being on a list like this is OK for your first couple ofrodsbut if your not careful you get sucked in to believing that there isonlyone way to build a flyrod. Right from the start I decided to build all my own fittings which Ido but mine. Regards,Terry BRAVO TERRY-----Tis what it is all about!!!!!!Jed -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 07:09:33 1996 Subject: Salt water rod I have in my possession a bamboo 'boat rod' for salt water. It's about four feet long, has double guides and is falling apart. All of the glue has deteriorated and the pieces are splitting apart. I have never even built a plastic rod, so I need some advice. 1. Is it possible to re-glue it without removing the handle? In other words shoot epoxy in between the splines with a syringe or something? Thehandle is solid wood, and I suspect it is glued on. 2. What should I use to clean it up? It's spent the last 20 years in a basement and is a little dusty and moldy. I don't want to use somethingthat is going to damage it. I'm not planning on using the rod, it just has sentimental value. Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 07:27:46 1996 Subject: Re: Anybody cast a Paul Young Para-15? the Castleconnel was a two-piece spliced greenheart rod made byEnright " on the banks of the Shannon" (presumably in the village ofCastleconnel itself.) Taverner recommends using this 16 foot rod as amodel thebutt section and is a very effective spey-casting rod. Other sources puttheweight of these rods at 30+ ounces, so the kick may have been a functionofthe considerable rod momentum acting on the line through the relativelythick tip. Whether the Castleconnel was the ancestor of the parabolictaperor related to it, I don't know.Roger,Although Geo. L. Herter must be taken with a cardiac threatening grain of salt, he does mention the Castleconnel Kick rod in his book on rodbuilding. He too describes it as a long British salmon rod; but he adds a description (and drawing) of the taper, i.e., stiff butt, weak mid, stiff tip, which provides the "kick". Sounds like a parabolic (not a "modified parabolic" as is used today) to me. I'd believe that Ritz (who was a marketer, par excellence) promoted the parabolic; he surely didn't inventit. Best regards,Reed Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 07:35:21 1996 Subject: RE: Salt water rod =I have in my possession a bamboo 'boat rod' for salt water. It's about four =feet long, has double guides and is falling apart. All of the glue has=deteriorated and the pieces are splitting apart. I have never even built a=plastic rod, so I need some advice.==1. Is it possible to re-glue it without removing the handle? In otherwords =shoot epoxy in between the splines with a syringe or something? Thehandle=is solid wood, and I suspect it is glued on. If you're not going to use it, you can glue it back togetherwithout doing much to it. However, I'd feel better if I hadrestored a rod to fishing order. It would take a littlelonger, but it would be 'whole' when you looked at it. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 08:47:28 1996 Subject: RE: Salt water rod If you're not going to use it, you can glue it back togetherwithout doing much to it. However, I'd feel better if I hadrestored a rod to fishing order. It would take a littlelonger, but it would be 'whole' when you looked at it. Yes, yes. Good. Excellent. I agree completely. What should I do differently? I assume I should remove the handle. If it's glued on, should I just plane it off? Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 09:03:15 1996 Subject: Re: wet cane In a message dated 96-05-01 07:47:21 EDT, you write: TerryPayne did in fact soak his cane---the main reason was Jim made hisown saw blades for the beveler from high carbon steel which does nothold up to friction well at all. The blades woud dull after only a fewstrips were cut---unless the cane was damp. Leonard also did the same.Don't forget this was before carbide blades were developed. High carbonhad to be used account of the set of the teeth of the blade----Highspeed steel teeth cannot be set as a carbon blade can, they will break.Jed Hello Jed:There is at least one current maker who soaks his cane strips beforeinitialstraightening. He is John Bokstrom, of BC, Canada. See The Planing Form# 38, Mar/Apr, 1996 issue for particulars. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 09:19:36 1996 Subject: RE: Salt water rod =Yes, yes. Good. Excellent. I agree completely. What should I do differently?=I assume I should remove the handle. If it's glued on, should I just plane=it off?==Bill Take the rod out and look at it. How much do you WANT to keep original? How much would it be practical to keep original? Do you have access to replacement parts? How are the guides? Are they all there? Other hardware? How is the handle. You can repair cork handles -- do you want to. A little soap and water will clean up a soiled handle. Get a box to keep all the stuff in. (Anything I don't put in a box RIGHT AWAY runs off and hides in my cluttered work room.) If you're going to re-glue the rod anyway, you might be able to save the handle by heating it until the glue gives way. I've not done this so you should talk to some of the others. You can make most of the tools. If you're not going to change the taper, you won't need any new planes or anything like that. There's a book on refinishing Bamboo Fly rods that might help a little._Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook_ -- By Michael SinclairAlthough it's generally about fly rods, the part about actually restoration is fairly general and could be applied to anything. Good Luck.Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 10:52:00 1996 Subject: New member, need help, where do I start I want to refinish my South Bend 9 foot, Is there a FAQ and is there anyonethat I can correspond with during this project. Shawn RaymondChelsea, Michigan*********************************************************************Shawn Raymond**Oracle DBA**763-5278**http://www- personal.umich.edu/~srraymon/index.htm and* *http://www.gtii.com/fish/michfish.htm********************************************************************* from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 10:52:00 1996 Subject: New member, need help, where do I start I want to refinish my South Bend 9 foot, Is there a FAQ and is there anyonethat I can correspond with during this project. Shawn RaymondChelsea, Michigan*********************************************************************Shawn Raymond**Oracle DBA**763-5278**http://www- personal.umich.edu/~srraymon/index.htm and* *http://www.gtii.com/fish/michfish.htm********************************************************************* from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 11:54:56 1996 Subject: rodwinding Does anyone know where I can order a small roll (100 yrds) of size A silk thread that is black and maroon varigated. Also a small roll (100 yrds) of size A black and orange varigated thread. Thank you. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 12:02:40 1996 Subject: Re: rodwinding Mac,You might try Angler's Workshop in Woodland WAhttp://www.anglersworkshop.com I remembertheir catalog having "new" Japanese silk, but not sure of colors. Hope thishelps.Len Gorney lsgorney@rs01.kings.eduhttp://www.kings.edu/~lsgorney/index.htm from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 12:55:45 1996 Subject: Re: rodwinding Does anyone know where I can order a small roll (100 yrds) of size A silkthread that is black and maroon varigated. Also a small roll (100 yrds) ofsize A black and orange varigated thread. Thank you. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu Bob Corsetti tel 603-886-0411 has a small stock of black/orangevarigatedsilk size 00 left over from Granger Rod Co. --Terje Tveras, Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 13:05:05 1996 Subject: Re: rodwinding Hi Len, The Angler's Workshop catalog doesn't have these colors unfortunately. Maybe someone has a roll tucked away in their workshop somewhere outthere? Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu-------------Original Text from lsgorney@rs01.kings.edu (Len Gorney), on 5/1/96 9:55 AM:Mac,You might try Angler's Workshop in Woodland WA http://www.anglersworkshop.com I remembertheir catalog having "new" Japanese silk, but not sure of colors. Hope this helps.Len Gorney lsgorney@rs01.kings.eduhttp://www.kings.edu/~lsgorney/index.htm The following was included as an attachement. Please use UUDECODEto retrieve it. The original file name was 'ATTRIBS.BND'. begin 666 ATTRIBS.BNDM0F5Y;VYD(%!A8VME9"!!='1R:6)U=&5S`$%45%))*```````4F4Z("!R;V1WM:6YD:6YG````````````````````````````````````````````````````M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````M`$-(4DE35$]02$52($,@34- $3U=%3$P`````````````````````````````M``````````````````````````````````!+834Y*W!!=59L````````````M````````0F5Y;VYD(%!R;W!R:65T87)Y($1A=&$:`````!$`````````#0!LM`@``````````````````````````3W)I9VEN86P@=&5X=#X!1G)O;2!L4!R2DL(&]N(#4O,2\Y-B`YM.C4U($%- .@I- 86,L"B`@66]U(&UI9VAT('1R>2!!;F=L97(G2]I;F1E>"YH=&T**`$#`#X!M(@$"``(````&``(``0`!`#X``````````@`_```!````````./\```````"0M`0``````````35,@4V%N``$`GP"B``$`MHP"W`````````````````&0``:0!`4@#`>P$`9`&`30(`=@)`7P+`2`-`Subject: RE: rodwinding =Does anyone know where I can order a small roll (100 yrds) of size A silk=thread that is black and maroon varigated. Also a small roll (100 yrds)of =size A black and orange varigated thread. Thank you. Cabela's carries thread in their rod building catalog, but I don't think It's silk. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 14:18:55 1996 Subject: RE: Boat Rod Rehab It should be fairly easy to put the rod back together. Not seeing the rod,these suggestions are of course rather broad. Very helpful. Thank you. Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 14:30:52 1996 Subject: RE: Salt water rod Take the rod out and look at it. How much do you WANT to keep original?How much would it be practical to keep original? Do you have access toreplacement parts? How are the guides? Are they all there? Otherhardware? How is the handle. You can repair cork handles -- do you wantto. A little soap and water will clean up a soiled handle. Thanks. I won't forget to keep a box handy for the parts. Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 14:57:36 1996 Subject: Temoering cane - Why? To all, Have tried a number of experiments to determine the "best" way to tempercane. Have used pipe ovens, direct flaming and convection/recirculationovens @ all kinds of temps/times. Spent a sack full of time and $'s andstill have no definitive answer. I, like a lot or all of us, believe thattempering somehow effects the stiffness of the cane. Unfortunaltey,severalof my experiments show that tempered cane is actually less stiff thanuntempered cane. The tests I used were:1] A deflection test where a spline was raised 45 degrees from ahorizontal base and distance between the spline tip and the base wasmeasured. A weight of 145 grains was placed on the spline and theresultingdistance was again measured. This was done for 5 splines which had beentempered by various methods. A 6th spline was left untempered as acontrol.The control spline did better than several of the others. So a second testwas set up.2] A set test using the same system as above but leaving the weight inplace weight was placed and removed. This test was designed to measure theset arod might take when fighting a good fish. Again, the control (untempered)spline did better than several of the tempered pieces.3] An oscillation test: This test was designed to measure the dampingcharateristics of the spline. The spline was held in a horizontal position.The very end was pulled downward 6" by a knife edge as the knife edgewasslowly slid down the spline till the spline sprang away. This test wasabandoned as the spline would not aways oscillate in a true verticalfashion. The above tests were replicated by Tom Fulks of Anacortes, Wa andreportedto the Merritt group last weekend. That group also did not have an answerasto what is the best method to temper cane or how they determined what isthebest method although to a man they seemed to believe that it must betempered. ( from a poll taken from the audience, it seems like the averagetime/temp.was 350 degrees F @ 15-20 minutes. It was noted however that thisdependedon whether you were located in a wet{coastal} or desert{central Idaho}climate. from the challenges to technique and tapers I have seen for the pastwhile,is there anybody out there that has done similar tests or any kind oftesting to determine the "best method" or is tempering one more of thosethings that should be turfed from the rod makers skills. Regards, Don Andersenwho remains slightly tempered but not yet flamed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 15:38:21 1996 Subject: Blue reel seat A friend found a Montague bamboo rod, in pretty nice shape, in a store that was using it as a decoration. He bought it. He, his wife, and I all want to know if the bright blue filler on the reel seat was standard or if someone with a warped sense of humor got after it with a paintbrush. Have any of you rod collectors seen such a thing? John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 15:48:18 1996 Subject: re: Blue reel seat I've seen some reel perty reel seats by Montague that were blue and also some pink ones. They look like plastic to me.-------------Original Text from "John Carter" , on 5/1/96 1:31 PM:A friend found a Montague bamboo rod, in pretty nice shape, in a store that was using it as a decoration. He bought it. He, his wife, and I all want to know if the bright blue filler on the reel seat was standard or if someone with a warped sense of humor got after it with a paintbrush. Have any of you rod collectors seen such a thing? John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 16:59:48 1996 Subject: Blue reel seat I want to know if the bright blue filler on the reel seat wasstandard? Montague was only one of many production rod companies that tookadvantage of the new high-tech synthetic materials available after WWII for use in making reel seats. Montague used several colors of this Bakelite material, and usually tried to match it to the color of the wraps on the rods. The Blue you mention was common on the Sunbeam, Blue Streak and Clippermodels. Dick Spurr Centennial Classic SalesThe Classic Angler: http://www.gorp.com/bamboo.htmThe Kingfisher's Kingdom: http://www.kingfisher.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 18:09:29 1996 Subject: Marker or Builder ? Looking for comments. For years I have felt that a person whomanufactures the main component in a rod was a maker and that he maderods.On the other hand a person that bought the main component of a rodassembledor built rods. Perhaps Leonard started it by stamping his reel seats H. L.Leonard 'maker'. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 18:20:20 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules I was recently "given" a rod in good condition, except for the ferrules. For some reason, several the ferrules are loose and I would like to reglue them. Simple questions: Can you please give me some CLUES to which GLUES you prefer for this process.I am also considering replacing the ferrules....so I might need a source for them (they have one step down). Any ideas?? I'm new to this and couldn't find how to use the archives.TIA Tim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 18:30:50 1996 Subject: Re: rodwinding In a message dated 96-05-01 13:51:23 EDT, you write: Does anyone know where I can order a small roll (100 yrds) of size A silkthread that is black and maroon varigated. Also a small roll (100 yrds)ofsize A black and orange varigated thread. Thank you. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.eduHello Mac: Dick Spurr's Classic Chronicle has several colors silk size 00, includingO/Bvarigated avail on 980-yd spools. Try ph 970-243-8780 / fax 6503 orspurr@kingfisher.com Regards,R Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 18:52:23 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules I have used Epoxy, not the quick dry type. It seems to work well. I have heard there are some "secrets" to tightening loose ferrules, that some of the more experienced rodmakers might know. I have always removed them first, which can be very difficult depending on what type of glue was used previously. Be careful if you use heat. I once heated one up too much on a partitioned ferrule and it shot across the room like a bullet. Unfortunately I was at the kitchen stove and not out in a shop or garage away from witnesses. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu-------------Original Text from LANE@dsa.unt.edu, on 5/1/96 4:13 PM:I was recently "given" a rod in good condition, except for the ferrules. For some reason, several the ferrules are loose and I would like to reglue them. Simple questions: Can you please give me some CLUES to which GLUES you prefer for this process.I am also considering replacing the ferrules....so I might need a source for them (they have one step down). Any ideas?? I'm new to this and couldn't find how to use the archives.TIA Tim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 19:57:25 1996 Subject: Re:Apology (was Para-15) In a message dated 96-05-01 08:21:33 EDT, you write: 'd believe that Ritz (who was a marketer, par excellence) promoted the parabolic; he surely didn't inventit.Dear Reed et al, I owe you all an apology for shoddy scholarship. The inf I cited re:Castleconnel rods was not from Taverner, but from an earlier British bookcalled Salmon and Trout Angling, for which I can't give the author,publisheretc because all I have is a bundle of xeroxed pages from an old librarycopy.Sorry.Also, in reading farther in Schweibert's "Iconography..." chapter, ESquotes some presumably knowledgeable person who said that Paul Youngandothers were building para tapers (by whatever name) before Ritz's bicycleaccident. The "Icononography..." piece is incredibly dense, covering dozensof makers and hundreds of designs and models, and it is hard for aneophytelike me to make sense of it. ES does say that the Para-15 was Young'spersonal favorite.Which brings me to a question that relates to actions, marketing, andcane for the Graphite Generation -- what about five-strip designs? EScarefully damns them with faint praise while acknowledging theworkmanship ofCrompton, Uslan, and Wire. If/when I try to build a rod, I am tempted totrya pent. Any experience out there?-- Roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 21:01:18 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules Tim: To re-set your ferrules without removing them;Try heating the ferrules GENTLY and SLOWLY over an alcohol lamp or somesuchdevice. Be very careful, this is a "feels about right" type of operation.If you heat the ferrule to quikly, or to a high temp., you will get a hissingsound, glue bubbling out from under the ferrule, etc. Go slow, and when you think the heat has released the bond of the glue, push down gently on the ferrule with a gloved hand (or whatever feels comfortable) to re-seat itand hang on till'it cools. Be careful not to bend the cane as you push because youwill cause the rod to set crooked. If you try this method and it fails, then go removal and re-glueing of the ferrule. Remember, to much heat to fastwill not only ruin what glue is there, but you also stand the chance of delaminatingand/or scorching your cane (stay off the kitchen stove). This holds true forferrule removal as well. Careful and good luck...Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 22:43:24 1996 Subject: Re: wet cane -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- TerryPayne did in fact soak his cane---the main reason was Jim made hisown saw blades for the beveler from high carbon steel which does nothold up to friction well at all. The blades woud dull after only a fewstrips were cut---unless the cane was damp. Leonard also did the same.Don't forget this was before carbide blades were developed. High carbonhad to be used account of the set of the teeth of the blade----Highspeed steel teeth cannot be set as a carbon blade can, they will break.Jed -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Wednesday, 24-Apr-96 06:04 PM From: Ackland Terence \ Internet: (hexagon@odyssee.net) Subject: wet cane I read with interest last week on the list about Paynes method ofsoakinghis bamboo in water for 24 hours and I decided to investigate. It is true Payne did soak the cane but it was Nellie Payne, Jim'scousin,she collected the scrap bamboo and made baskets and carpet beaters. Soaking cane is an old basketmaking trick I can remember doing it atschool, or was it reform school. Actually bamboo was soaked in water for 24 hrs prior to the phenolicimpregnation proccess. This soaking swelled the fibers makingpressureimpregnation of the water soluble resins easier. It was Wes Jordan not Payne that developed the phenolic impregnationproccess for flyrods but the proccess had been in use for years inotherapplications. Regards,Terry Ackland -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- HI JED,I'd argue with you over the wet bamboo, have you ever tried to cut wetlumber with a saw? Payne's cutters were very simple affairs, they were made to be thrownaway.He used a punch and die to blank out small saws of possibly 1 1/2 in. dia.then they were heat treated. It is very difficult to find out just what these guys did, back when bamboowas king all rodmakers had their secrets, and when composites camealong theinterest in bamboo almost vanished. All these rodmakers died with theirsecrets and it is just a matter of re discovering the medium. I find it amusing that these guys with their laptops come along and ignore150 years or split bamboo rodmaking by trying to suggest that they candesign the perfect rod. I feel the perfect rod is in the processing of thecane. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 01:34:22 1996 Subject: Re:Apology (was Para-15) At 08:32 PM 5/1/96 -0400, you wrote: Which brings me to a question that relates to actions, marketing, andcane for the Graphite Generation -- what about five-strip designs? EScarefully damns them with faint praise while acknowledging theworkmanship ofCrompton, Uslan, and Wire. If/when I try to build a rod, I am tempted totrya pent. Any experience out there?--Roger No building experience, but many years ago I had the opportunity to cast acouple of Frank Wire rods(he was an Oregonian who at one time was on theOregon Fish and Wildlife Comission) and was not terribly impressed. Thoughtthey were a bit "noodly", as I imagine a typical Brit wet fly rod to be. AHardy Phantom of the same era was by contrast quite fast.Mike in PDX from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 02:05:34 1996 Subject: para rods I would like to offer what I believe a para rod action is: top 1/3 of the rodis strong but not overpowering, a fine balance between tippet protectionandline delivery. The middle third of the rod is very stiff and the butt 1/3 isthe working area of the rod. In extreme examples the butt dimensionsactualyregress. The rod works like a spear thrower. The flexible lower levertransmits power through the stiff middle lever where it is amplified, thispower is delivered to the tip where a good design bears fruit or a poordesign is scrapped.I have had the advantage of building and designing these rods. Not on thecomputer but in cane where it counts. Some of the rods are so severe inaction that they are offered only to my old customers who have a trackrecord of knowing how to use them. Rods that flex to the reelseat withoutaslow actioned bone in their body. Man I love parabolics, versatile,powerfuland exotic.The Granger tapers were moderatly parabolic also and they had thereputation for being very user friendly. A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 06:07:46 1996 Subject: Talk about marketing Hello all, I saw an advertisement in the latest Flyfisherman. It was for Garrison Taper Graphite Rod, inc or something like that. It states that Garrison's tapers have proven themselves and now you can experience the feel without the huge expense of cane. I read it as the tapers, not bamboo, gives it the special feel. What a bunch of dopes. Has anyone seen these or even tried them? Maybe, bamboo is making more of a sound than we realize. laterTom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 08:07:53 1996 Subject: Re: Blue reel seat John, the bright blue seat filler was original as were bright red ones.Montique used a variety of fillers.Clark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. Street.Zion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext. 270c-davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 08:08:05 1996 Subject: Re: para rods I would like to offer what I believe a para rod action is: top 1/3 of therodis strong but not overpowering, a fine balance between tippet protectionandline delivery. The middle third of the rod is very stiff and the butt 1/3 isthe working area of the rod. In extreme examples the butt dimensionsactualyregress. The rod works like a spear thrower. The flexible lower levertransmits power through the stiff middle lever where it is amplified,thispower is delivered to the tip where a good design bears fruit or a poordesign is scrapped.I have had the advantage of building and designing these rods. Not on thecomputer but in cane where it counts. Some of the rods are so severe inaction that they are offered only to my old customers who have a trackrecord of knowing how to use them. Rods that flex to the reelseatwithout aslow actioned bone in their body. Man I love parabolics, versatile,powerfuland exotic.A.J. As an owner of one of A.J.s fast parabolics (8'6" for #5/6) I can wellunderstandhis enthusiasm for the rod. I suspect my rod does not have one of the moresevereactions. Nevertheless, it has quite a different feel from other rods thatI've ownedand cast. This feel is difficult to describe except to say that myexperience with the rod sofar is that it does not like you to be sloppy. Timing has to be quite precisebut itis a precision that come from being compact and efficient. The rod wilthrow 70' ofline with ease if you let it. What I think is most impressive about thisparabolic, however, is that its power does not come at the expense of control as isso often thecase with modern graphite. To me it's the control that is mostimpressive. You can throw remarkable in air mends and curves with this rod. I think this isbecause the action is uniquely distributed. If you throw a mend in the cast by loweringand raising the rod to the left or right, the curve that falls on the water isamazing. A.J. has indicated that this taper works best in rods 8' and up. I canunderstandwhy. I would point out that this characteristic also means a rod with afair amountof wood in the tip. My current reel (5.4 oz.) is not heavy enough to balancethe rod.I'd think 7 - 8 oz. would do it, but this kind of weight obviously flies inthe face of market trends over the last decade. Many cane owners, myself included,fish bothgraphite and cane. The in-hand feel and balance of alittle 7' for #4 is notvery different from graphite. The para is definitely in another category. Youcan build some muscle casting these rods. richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 09:46:44 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules Tim, Several of the rod builders (makers) used pins to secure their ferrules tothe cane. Look the ferrules over very closely for a small ( approx. 0.025")indentation. It likley that it contains a pin. Using a very small punch,remove the pin. Save it cause its tough to get the same size again. Whenregluing, make sure that you have marked the pin location on the shaftpriorto installing the glued ferrule. Install the pin prior to the gule setting.Best of luck. Don Tim: To re-set your ferrules without removing them;Try heating the ferrules GENTLY and SLOWLY over an alcohol lamp or somesuchdevice. Be very careful, this is a "feels about right" type of operation.If you heat the ferrule to quikly, or to a high temp., you will get a hissingsound, glue bubbling out from under the ferrule, etc. Go slow, and whenyou think the heat has released the bond of the glue, push down gently on the ferrule with a gloved hand (or whatever feels comfortable) to re-seat itand hang on till'it cools. Be careful not to bend the cane as you push because youwill cause the rod to set crooked. If you try this method and it fails, then go removal and re-glueing of the ferrule. Remember, to much heat to fastwill not only ruin what glue is there, but you also stand the chance ofdelaminatingand/or scorching your cane (stay off the kitchen stove). This holds true forferrule removal as well. Careful and good luck...Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 10:16:54 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules Don says:Several of the rod builders (makers) used pins to secure their ferrules tothe cane. Look the ferrules over very closely for a small ( approx. 0.025")indentation. It likley that it contains a pin. Using a very small punch,remove the pin. Save it cause its tough to get the same size again. Whenregluing, make sure that you have marked the pin location on the shaftpriorto installing the glued ferrule. Install the pin prior to the gule setting.Best of luck. What's the deal with pins, are they used anymore? Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 10:31:51 1996 Subject: Re: Maker or Builder ? I like your distinction and use of "maker" vs "builder". Since I have never "made" a fly rod of either the "G" word or cane varietybut have assembled several, I always (when asked) tell people just *that*,that I "assembled" or "constructed " the finished rod from componentsthathad been "made" or "built" by others. Using your distinction I can move myself up to rod "builder" ! ;-) Russ LavigneAnachemrpo@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 12:29:59 1996 Subject: Re: Maker or Builder ? I like your distinction and use of "maker" vs "builder". I like it, too. So far I'm a builder, looking to graduate to maker.John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 13:11:51 1996 Subject: Back on the List Due to a move of my mail server I have been outof touch for two days. I had just posted the question of "Has anyonecasted a Paul Young Para - 15" when mymail went down. If you responded to that,please answer again. Thank you,Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 13:33:18 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? At 18:57 5/1/96 -0400, you wrote:Looking for comments. For years I have felt that a person whomanufactures the main component in a rod was a maker and that he maderods.On the other hand a person that bought the main component of a rodassembledor built rods. Perhaps Leonard started it by stamping his reel seats H. L.Leonard 'maker'. Wayne The definition of make is to build. The definition of build is to make. Ilooked it up. It seems to be a personal choice of grammar.A piece of bamboo is a stick. When it is carefully crafted into a rod it ishopefully transformed into a work of art.If my opinion counts for anything, (and it seldom does) a person who takesaraw material, (bamboo) splits it, planes it into shape, and assembles itinto a fishing rod would be a Rod Crafter.Careful craftsmanship and attention to detail are major components of theaesthetic appeal that so many people find desirable in split bamboo rods.Instead of maker, builder, or made by, built by, I would prefer the labelCrafted by. This would be a more accurate description.No matter what the craft, time is the tool used most by the craftsman.You asked for comments and these are mine.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 13:55:32 1996 Subject: Varnish Has anyone found a varnish brand that dries clear relative to other varnish brands. I've used a couple brands of spar varnish and they are quite yellow when they dry. I've also tried a product called Wood Tex waterbourne laquer and found that it dries very clear but doesn't have enough flexibility for a fishing rod. After casting, hairline cracks appeared where the finish met with the bamboo. They're barely visible and do not appear to have cracked all the way to the surface, but it seems like a disaster anyway. I have some rods I'm ready to dip and I'm looking to try a different finish that dries relatively clearer. Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mac from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 14:43:00 1996 Subject: Re: Varnish CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: Has anyone found a varnish brand that dries clear relative to othervarnishbrands. In an earlier post I mention Daly's Profin. It dries clear. Daly's is based in Seattle. I don't have the number but you can get it from information. Daly's can ship to you or steer you to a local retailer.zig from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 14:56:01 1996 hexagon@odyssee.net (ACKLAND TERENCE))Subject: Re: bamboo flyrods Dr spolek,have you ever taken the time to evaluate Garrisons method offlyrod design? I personally do not believe that flyrods made using hisformulas produce a particularly good rod. many senior flyfishermenagree on this yet so many contemporary rodsmakers seem to be lockedinto his tapers.Please take a look at my modest one pinky production.http://www.odyssee.net/~hexagon/ I have jsut returned from an extended overseas trip, so can only respond quickly to let you know that I actually do read my e-mail. I have not specifically looked at the Garrison rods. My testing has been all experimental and I have not had one to test. I am aware of their methods, though. While their calulation procedures appear impressive, they do not apply at all to flyrods, because they used beam equations which assume small defelctions (eg, the tip deflection is much less than 10% of the length) which simply do not apply for rods. I hope that this helps. Graig Spolek______________________________________________________________________Graig SpolekMechanical Engineering DepartmentPortland State Universitygraig@eas.pdx.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 15:31:47 1996 Subject: Re: bamboo flyrods From: "Graig Spolek" Organization: Portland State University Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:37:33 PSTSubject: Re: bamboo flyrods Priority: normal Dr spolek,have you ever taken the time to evaluate Garrisons method offlyrod design? I personally do not believe that flyrods made using hisformulas produce a particularly good rod. many senior flyfishermenagree on this yet so many contemporary rodsmakers seem to be lockedinto his tapers.Please take a look at my modest one pinky production.http://www.odyssee.net/~hexagon/ I have jsut returned from an extended overseas trip, so can only respond quickly to let you know that I actually do read my e-mail. I have not specifically looked at the Garrison rods. My testing has been all experimental and I have not had one to test. I am aware of their methods, though. While their calulation procedures appear impressive, they do not apply at all to flyrods, because they used beam equations which assume small defelctions (eg, the tip deflection is much less than 10% of the length) which simply do not apply for rods. I hope that this helps. Graig Spolek______________________________________________________________________Graig SpolekMechanical Engineering DepartmentPortland State Universitygraig@eas.pdx.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 15:47:20 1996 Subject: Re: para rods In a message dated 96-05-02 03:02:52 EDT, you write: I have had the advantage of building and designing these rods. Not on thecomputer but in cane where it counts. Some of the rods are so severe inaction that they are offered only to my old customers who have a trackrecord of knowing how to use them. Rods that flex to the reelseatwithout aslow actioned bone in their body. Man I love parabolics, versatile,powerfuland exotic. Hello AJ: It is my understanding that you plan to attend the TBBBQ next month. Iwouldreally appreciate it if you would bring one of your para's, and the moresevere so the better. To me, exploring such is the essence of my affection have cast is a PHY Perfectionist. Again, it would be greatly appreciatedforthe opportunity. Thanks and Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 17:24:35 1996 Subject: Re: Apology (was Para-15) In a message dated 96-05-01 20:50:45 EDT, you write: Which brings me to a question that relates to actions, marketing, andcane for the Graphite Generation -- what about five-strip designs? EScarefully damns them with faint praise while acknowledging theworkmanshipofCrompton, Uslan, and Wire. If/when I try to build a rod, I am tempted totrya pent. Any experience out there?--Roger Hello Rodger: I bought a set of pent planing forms from Frank Armbruster, ColoradoBootstrap, 8599 E. Louisiana Ave., Aurora, CO 80017 (303) 745-1353. Sofar,I have built 3 rods and it all works out ok. Requires a two-form set, duetothe strips have an apex angle of 72d with corners of 54d. I became enamoured with the pent idea as a way to have a bamboo in thelonger, higher line sizes with less weight as a way to have pity on a nottoostrong right arm. My idea was that the pent was a cross section ofsuperiorstrength along the line of reasoning of the I-beam in steel ormanufacturedwooden I-beam trusses. Everything I had read about Pents seemed to saythatthe pent was, indeed more powerful. A pent 7-0 #5 that I cast was quitestrong and fast, as was a pent casting rod of a friend. However, in AJMcClane's book, The Practical Fly Fisherman, a Cambridge Universitymathmatical explination shows only a slight improvement in rigidity ofthe 5over the 6 for equal cross section which is described as insignificant. Sobe it. A Mr. Len Histand has a computer program out to compare 6 sided to5and 4. In it he shows a 'd' (planing form setting depth) comparison forequal cross section and equal stiffness. For the pent, after progressing upthe tip awhile, one notices that the d for equal cross section becomesgreater than d for equal stiffness. I used his program to convert a taperofa 7-9 # 5 from hex to pent, and used the =stiffness numbers. The owner ofthe taper finished the rod out and reported the pent copy was slightlystiffer in the tip (18-24 inches) and the butt slightly slower than the hexparent. He thought the stiffer tip might have been the cause of the slowerbutt, reporting that the differenceses were subtle. Because the Histandresults shows the same 'd' for the first few 5" increments, it fit like aglove - if one is to assume all the above valid. With the inumeral subtledifferences in cane, treatment, humidity, etc., I really doubt validity toany great degree. I think any cross sectional shape is much like any other in that it can, asMcClane says, be fashioned into any strength one wants based on thederivedtaper. Want a noodle? - can be had in quad, pent, hex, etc. Same with apowerhouse, any length, line size, etc. So where does that leave the pent. Probably with some structuralstrengthadvantage vis-a-vis weight/strength ratio. To a discernable degree? - Idon't know (but would like to). It may be the pent is simply a curiosity. Itis however, a bit quicker to get thru the planing stage due to 16+% fewerstrips do. That can be offset due to wrapping being a bit slower, and onehas to deal with the ferrule situation and the fact that 5-jaw chucks are amite hard to find - read nonexistant (had to fashion pent collets out ofwoodand they are slow to use). In casting, if done with my eyes closed Iwouldn't know the difference. Did I waste my time and money in all the above? No! Mine is a retirementshop, my second childhood playpen and I like to experiment. Now I alsohavea set of quad forms (2-form set too) and will one day soon tackle that. Willuse the same taper but it will probably not cut much ice as a comparisonbecause I have none of the original culm remaining. This may sound like somuch cane quackery to many, and if it walks like a duck....... I LOVEbamboo. The author assumes no responsibility for any comments made concerningtheabove :-[ but he solicits any and all types of comments. Especially fromthose with pent experience. Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 19:08:41 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules Don says:Several of the rod builders (makers) used pins to secure their ferrulestothe cane. Look the ferrules over very closely for a small ( approx.0.025")indentation. It likley that it contains a pin. Using a very small punch,remove the pin. Save it cause its tough to get the same size again. Whenregluing, make sure that you have marked the pin location on the shaftpriorto installing the glued ferrule. Install the pin prior to the gule setting.Best of luck. What's the deal with pins, are they used anymore? Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson Tom, Far as I know they don't anymore. Used to quite common. Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 19:34:41 1996 Subject: TTBBBQ II Questionaire To be as much help as possible for Deux I offer up the followingquestions. Does any one need directions to Grayling? Does anyone need input as far as hatches, rivers, accommodations (hotels,cabins, campgrounds)? Does anyone want to pick up bamboo, I have scrap pieces for practice, orwould there be interest in getting Harold Demarest to ship in a bundle ortwoto break into smaller lots? Is anyone interested in a friday night workshop or can I make plans forfishing? Anyother comments ar suggestions are welcome Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 20:35:01 1996 Subject: winrod - 96??? Bruce Back from Corbett Lake - I down loaded you rod.zip and got it to rununderwin-os2 after a few hic cups - nothing serious. looks good maybe evengreat. Here is my constructive comments: Why limit line weight to max of 7? ferrule range of 10 - 15 is limiting cast distance of max of 90' I have been playing around with some "monster" rod and tapers andthis limitsme to traditional rod dimensions - need more elbow room for bigger orsmallerrod designs. also misspelling of "lentgh" in error message if you don't enteractionlength. Keep up the good work Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 21:08:06 1996 Subject: Re: winrod - 96??? Bruce Back from Corbett Lake - I down loaded you rod.zip and got it torun underwin-os2 after a few hic cups - nothing serious. looks good maybe evengreat.Here is my constructive comments: Why limit line weight to max of 7? ferrule range of 10 - 15 is limiting cast distance of max of 90' I have been playing around with some "monster" rod and tapers andthis limitsme to traditional rod dimensions - need more elbow room for bigger orsmallerrod designs. also misspelling of "lentgh" in error message if you don't enteractionlength. Thanks for the comments, Chris. Line weight was limited to 7 for noparticular reason other than everyone on the list seemed to think thatbamboo was "best" at weights below 7. I can easily add 8, 9, 10 if youlike ( How big do you want it?) Do you have the actual weights for theselines handy? I didn't have any data handy for the ferrule weights above 15/64ths. Ifyou have weights for the larger and smaller ferrules (including truncated)please let me know what they are so I can add them. Casting distance of 90 feet was based on the standard 90 foot flyline. Formaking spey casting rods and such I *might* be able to add length to theline, but I cut a couple of corners and implementing this will take a bitmore effort. As far as the misspellings go, that's me! :') I'll go in and fix em assoon as I have a list of what they are. I have 2 so far. Nice to know it runs onder os2! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 22:22:31 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules In a message dated 96-05-01 19:13:23 EDT, you write: Simple questions: Can you please give me some CLUES to which GLUES you prefer for this process.I am also considering replacing the ferrules....so I might need a source for them (they have one step down). Any ideas?? I'm new to this and couldn't find how to use the archives.TIA Tim Hello Tim: I use Devcon 2-Ton epoxy for ferrules, as does several builders I havetalkedwith. Wayne Cattanach recommends it in his book. Ferrules are availableform Classic Sporting Enterprises, Roaring Brook Road, RD #3 - Box 3,Barton,VT 05822. Phone is (802) 525-3623/fax 3982. Owned and operated byBailyWood, a nice guy (at least to do business with - never met him). Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 22:22:43 1996 Subject: Re: TTBBBQ II Questionaire In a message dated 96-05-02 20:24:10 EDT, you write: Does anyone need input as far as hatches, rivers, ... Hello Wayne:Anything you want to post concerning the above would be helpful to me. Also,what would you consider to be a minimum fly list for 3-4 days fishing inthearea. Thought I might bring a # 14 adams and maybe a # 16, but don't wanttooverdo it. Thanks, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 22:40:06 1996 Subject: Re: winrod - 96??? In a message dated 96-05-02 22:01:33 EDT, you write: I didn't have any data handy for the ferrule weights above 15/64ths. Ifyou have weights for the larger and smaller ferrules (includingtruncated)please let me know what they are so I can add them. Hello Bruce: Here are some ferrule wts. that might help: Classic Ent Super Swiss# 8 Trun 0.085 oz# 9 Std 55.2 grain = 0.126 oz# 16 Trun 119.6 " = 0.273 oz# 17 Trun 126.5 " = 0 .2895 oz# 18 Trun 143.0 " = 0.327 oz Classic Ent Super Step Down# 11 Std 74.5 grain = 0.170 oz Very carefully measured with a reliable Ohause powder scale. Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 23:18:09 1996 Subject: para-15 A.J. - I'd like to second Richard Tyree. If you're coming to Grayling,please bring a para or three. I'd really like to see the difference GO MAIL from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 07:21:30 1996 Subject: Re: TTBBBQ II Questionaire Richard -The #14 adams is O.K. but the #16 might be excess and in violation oftheBum rules falling under sub section #76 which states 'no optical aidesmay beused between the hours of midnight and sunrise' - I think the concern isthattoo many shot glasses would be dropped into the river and the possibleenviromental damage caused. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 07:32:24 1996 Subject: workshop Wayne, when is the workshop and is it being held again at the Fly Factory?What is the cost and where do I send the check?Clark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. StreetZion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext 270c-davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 08:22:22 1996 Subject: No Subject Hello John Long: Thanks for the material you sent. Will be in touch soon. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 08:22:37 1996 Subject: Re: New member, need help, where do I start In a message dated 96-05-03 05:10:36 EDT, you write: I want to refinish my South Bend 9 foot, Is there a FAQ and is thereanyonethat I can correspond with during this project. Shawn RaymondChelsea, Michigan Hello Shawn: Probably a large number of us on the list would be happy to help. Suggestyou simply put your questions on the list for answers. Tho it may seem abitextravagant to you at this point, most of the books on rodbuilding/restoration would be of great help. Especially those published,starting with the Garrison book to present. Let me know if you needreferences for those books. Best Regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 09:25:42 1996 Subject: Oven Help To all, I have just finished a hot air oven. Used a 6" triple wall insulated pipewith a three inch galvanized inside pipe. As yet I have not been able toget oven temps to even out. Tied extra insulation and the bottom of theoven still does not get above 250 degrees, while the top two thirds is at375 degrees or above. have run oven as long as 25 minutes and the bottomTemp still top temps as high as 400 degrees. The bottom temp stayedbelow250. I am using a Makita heat gun with full variable temp control, but Iam thinking it may not be putting out enough volume of hot air? Any ideasor help will be greatly appreciated as I have just finished rough planingmy 1st rod and I am very anxious to heat treat so I can get to the streamwith my own rod. Thanks again for the help. Jim Fillpot from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 18:20:13 1996 Subject: Weir Rods I have a 7' 2/2 4 wt Weir and Sons rod. I love it and I want to know a little more about it. I've read the info on Weir in Keane, Schweibert and Spurr. Dick Spurr's book helped me decipher part of the serial number code. The rod is an M700, that is medium action 7' with a downlcoking SB NS seat. The whole sn is M700-16-9. It is probably some combination of year and number made that year, but I can find no reference material. Any help is appreciated. Does anyone know what happened to the family and if they are still in business?thnxz from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 23:08:55 1996 Subject: winrod-96 help - where can I find winrod - 96. I'm a new guy to computers and can'tfindthe file. thanks ... dennis from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 00:28:31 1996 Subject: Re: winrod-96 help - where can I find winrod - 96. I'm a new guy to computers and can'tfindthe file. thanks ... dennis ftp to sirronald.wustl.edu/pub/rm/rod.zip Enjoy! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 00:33:56 1996 Subject: Weir Flyrods Ihave a 7' 2/2 4wt Weir and Sons flyrod. Can anyone help me decipher the serial number (M700-16-9)? The M700 means medium action, 7'. The rest of the number most likely indicates when the rod was made. I've checked books by Keane, Schweibert and Spurr to no avail. I also have a company catalog, undated, which doesn't have this rod listed. Also what happened to the comapny and their rod making equipment? Dick Spurr's book indicates that they used a Powell type milling machine.thnxzig from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 13:33:44 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? Looking for comments. For years I have felt that a person whomanufactures the main component in a rod was a maker and that he maderods.On the other hand a person that bought the main component of a rodassembledor built rods. Perhaps Leonard started it by stamping his reel seats H. L.Leonard 'maker'. Wayne,I appreciate your dillema. IMHO, perhaps the best word you used was "manufacture", the "hand working". The use of maker, as you define it, in the case of Leonard would be incorrect. Leonard (also Thomas, E.W.Edwards, and others) eventually had a complete production-line; one man sawed the strips, one straightened and beveled, one glued, and finally someone straightened and scraped. None of these would probably ever make a rod, in the sense in which you mean it. Thus, Leonard was not a "maker" (after the production line started). Was Paul Young not a maker when he bought his sticks from SouthBend or Heddon, but a builder?What you're looking for is a "Built- From-Culm" designation. How about the term "Rod Manufacturer", this implies the hand construction, fora BFC type, and "Rod Builder" for the assembler?Of course, the above is not intended to imply a hierarchy. I am now a builder (as above) and restorer. But without people restoring (and collecting) old rods there would be scant historical input into modern cane rod manufacturing. And that would be a great loss. I've cast some superb rods made by modern BFC; but certain delightful early actions have never been explored by many of them. Best regards,Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 16:18:34 1996 Subject: Frazer book Ken Callahan's recent catalog has a copy of Frazer's Amateur Rodmaking, $20. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 17:32:05 1996 Subject: WinRod-96 (more) Bruce I have been fooling around with Rod Calculator and found some minorprobs: 1. stress values seem to be inverted. I expect max values at tip andminvalues at butt. I get lowest values at tip and max at but with program. 2. Printing of graphs - I get two small rectangular shaded boxes onthe leftside of the printout for both graphs in either portrait or landscape modes. Ihave HP660Cse printer. Print screen comes out just fine and in color. Couldyou add color to match the display? Suggestion - Add place for Name of rod and carry that info intographs aspart of title. Also add ferrule stations as part of graph info. I like the ease of entry and ability to save and recal rod values. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 19:16:14 1996 Subject: math question I have just been looking through a how to fly fish book and there weresomeinteresting how to cast photographs. This Particular teacher cast with his rod at 45deg yet from the photo theloop was vertical. What I would be interested know is, would casting at an angle alter themath? I have never got involved with any of the Garrison math because I built afew rods to his tapers and decided that they were not for me. I simplypresumed the math was wrong and developed my own tapers. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 19:40:04 1996 Subject: Re: WinRod-96 (more) Bruce I have been fooling around with Rod Calculator and found someminor probs:1. stress values seem to be inverted. I expect max values at tipand minvalues at butt. I get lowest values at tip and max at but with program. Hmm, that shouldn't be happening. Try making a "test" rod by putting in astriaght taper starting small at the tip and getting larger by the sameamount for each station. I was looking at some Paul Young tapers and theysort of fly around as far as the stresses go. 2. Printing of graphs - I get two small rectangular shaded boxeson the leftside of the printout for both graphs in either portrait or landscape modes. Ihave HP660Cse printer. Print screen comes out just fine and in color. Couldyou add color to match the display? Where exactly do the boxes show on the printout? Do they correspond toanything on the data input screen or the graph screen? Suggestion - Add place for Name of rod and carry that info intographs aspart of title. Also add ferrule stations as part of graph info. Adding the name shouldn't be too hard, but I can't add the ferrule stationsto the graph without really ripping apart a lot of things. It's the natureof the graph function itself. You can only have one value type per axis Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 21:42:18 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? In a message dated 96-05-04 14:27:17 EDT, you write: What you're looking for is a "Built-From-Culm" designation. How about the term "Rod Manufacturer", this implies the hand construction, BFC type, and "Rod Builder" for the assembler? Hello Reed:How about "Bamboo Builder". It does convey the basic idea. Just a thought.Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 00:04:18 1996 Subject: Are we up an running? I posted a question Fri 5/3. It's didn't pop up. In fact I've had no rodmakers posts in three days. Just checking to see if it's still up.z from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 00:32:51 1996 Subject: WISE FISHERMANS ENCYCLOPEDIA I AM TRYING TO FIND A COPY OF "THE WISE FISHERMANS ENCYCLOPEDIA",DOES ANYONEHAVE AN IDEA WHERE I CAN GET ONE? I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO HEAR FROMANYONE WHO HASBUILT A BINDER DESCRIBED BY CHRIS LUCKER IN THE PLANING FORM. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 01:17:08 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? I've been going by Bamboo rod craftsman for lack of any better idea.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 11:05:30 1996 Subject: Re: WISE FISHERMANS ENCYCLOPEDIA Try Ken Callahan at Callahan & Company Booksellers. (603)924-3726 He specializes in Hunting and Angling books. He usually has a copy or two, also very good prices. (This is not a paid commercial break) Reed P.S. - If you express interest in rodmaking, he has other titles. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 11:42:46 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? At 02:23 PM 5/4/96 -0400, Reed wrote:[snip]What you're looking for is a "Built-From-Culm" designation. How about the term "Rod Manufacturer", this implies the hand construction, BFC type, and "Rod Builder" for the assembler?Of course, the above is not intended to imply a hierarchy. I am now a builder (as above) and restorer. But without people restoring (and collecting) old rods there would be scant historical input into moderncane rod manufacturing. And that would be a great loss. I've cast some superb rods made by modern BFC; but certain delightful early actions have never been explored by many of them. Best regards,Reed Reed, The word "manufacturer" leaves me with a very cold feeling. I don'tbelievethat it relates very well to the craftsmanship and hand labor that goesintothe making of a cane rod. I think Webster's says it best: "Manufacture -the making of goods and articles by hand or, especially, by machinery,oftenon a large scale and with division of labor". I can see that descriptionbeing applied to graphite rods but not to cane rods. See Ya,--------------------John JohnsonAtlanta, GAjjohnson@netime.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 12:09:22 1996 Subject: 60 deg. point for dial gage? Does anyone know where I can find a 60 degree point for a dialgage/indicator? I know that Starett carries them, but I can'tfind their phone number. Thanks,Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 14:07:59 1996 Subject: For sale J.W. Young reel and Wulff 4/5 line Hello, in clearing out all the stuff I take fishing I have decided to part with a vintage(bought new in 64) J.W. Young Pridex reel with a newish Wulff #4/5 triangle taper floating line. Reel is about the size and character of a Hardy Featherweight and will hold 4WF or 3 DT and some backing. I had it back to the factory recently for new latch springs and a check over. Good mechanical condition, some wear on finish. 65.00 including postage. email or call John 2l7-344-8532 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 16:49:08 1996 Subject: Stress errors in Garrison's equation re: In order to quantify Dr. Spolek's comments about Garrison's calculationin a recent post: While their calculation procedures appearimpressive, they do not apply at all to flyrods, because they usedbeam equations which assume small deflections (e.g., the tip deflectionis much less than 10% of the length) which simply do not apply forrods. I have calculated the expected stresses in a rod when it is at its maximumbend point during the forward cast. This curvature was taken from astrobephoto that Dr. Spolek used in one of his many technical papers on thesubject, and showed the line pull angle relative to the butt was 45degreesat this maximum bend point. I tried to get some typical design tapers for a bamboo rod to do thiscomparison, but was unable to stimulate any in interest looking at thisproblem with a builder of bamboo rods. Thus this data is based on rodparameters supplied to me by Dr. Spolek some time ago for anunmentionablematerial. To be more specific this rod had a linear taper from tip to buttwith a nearly constant wall thickness. Its effective Young's modulus wasaround 12.5 Mpsi. The ratio of the butt diameter to the tip diameter wasaround 5:1. I was unable to find how Garrison defined his stress curve since his bookwas stolen from the local library some time ago. However, the generallyaccepted definition for the maximum fiber stress in a bent beam isdefinedas M*zsigma= ----I where: M is the bending momentz is the distance from the neutral axisI is the area moment of inertial for the beam cross section Using this definition and calculating the maximum fiber stress at theouterdiameter of the rod I found the following stress values for thestiff beam approximation (Garrison's equations) and the true flexible beamsolution. normalized stress stress relativedistance stiff flexible error from butt beam beam factor0 342.7 374 1.0910.05 361.9 458.5 1.2670.1 382.7 565.1 1.4770.15 405.4 700.4 1.7280.2 430.2 873.1 2.030.25 457.3 1095 2.3940.3 487 1381 2.8360.35 519.6 1753 3.3730.4 555.5 2237 4.0270.45 595 2872 4.8270.5 638.5 3707 5.8060.55 686.1 4809 7.0090.6 738 6266 8.490.65 793.7 8191 10.320.7 851.8 1.073e+04 12.60.75 909 1.405e+04 15.460.8 957.1 1.834e+04 19.160.85 977.9 2.364e+04 24.170.9 928.5 2.94e+04 31.660.95 701.3 3.154e+04 44.971 0 0 1.0 from this table you can see the stiff beam equation greatly under- estimatesthe true fiber stresses near the tip (normalized length=90-.95) by a factorof 30 to 45 times. As Dr. Spolek surmised the stiff beam equations to not apply to a fly rod.After all one of its chief attributes is that is designed to bend. Gordon Judd There are advantages to being self-taught;Fullerton, CA the quality of instruction is not one ofjudd@cosmoslink.net them. -Ted Leeson- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 17:57:24 1996 Subject: Castaways How many list-members who live in New England/New York would like toget together on a stream some Saturday in May to test cast cane rods? Isuggest a stream because in order to examine the properties of diffent tapers/actions, it is helpful to be in a real fishing environment. If collectors were to bring some vintage actions, and makers/builderswere to bring their creations, we could each experience differentinterpretations of the "perfect" cane rod. We could have some mikes handy for taking off vintage tapers. Any takers? Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 18:15:06 1996 Subject: Re: Castaways How many list-members who live in New England/New York would like togettogether on a stream some Saturday in May to test cast cane rods?Reed I'm interested depending on where and when. I have two Thramers and a Phillipson to contribute.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 21:02:45 1996 Subject: Fishing - 60 deg points - TTBBBQII cabins Having been kidnapped by trout bum terrorists (Sam - Toni - 'DunkinDanand 'The Redhead')- I just recently escaped after days of tortureousfishingpressure but alas I am finially safe at my keyboard again. 60 Degree Starret Points (part # 6632/6)As I have offered in the past - if anyone wants one - just e - mail anaddress and I will gladly send. If for some reason anyone that has askedforone and hasn't got one send address again. Occassionally it seems as ifAOLends up burning excess mail under a overpass in Chicago somewhere. Cabins for TTBBBQ IIThere are two locations of rentable cabins in the Grayrock area. Thecabins that JJ told some about are owned by Frank Love - they are locatedoverlooking the Manistee River just downstream of CR 612 bridge. Welooked atthem this weekend and they are livable and quite affordable($35.00/night)and according to Frank he has two available for the dates around thatweekend. Each cabin looks like it would accommadate 2.The other cabins are owned by Jim Penrod of Penrod's canoe livery -located 2 blocks (crawling) east of the fly factory. They are quite nice andwill house many.Somehow I left the phone numbers at the clubhouse (my hurried escape)-Grayrock Directory Assistance Fly InformationSteve Southard posted a minimum list of fly patterns earlier - justremember that some of us know a fly tier - perhaps it might be best topost aupdate as the date approaches - If forced I could do a weekly sampling offishing and post results. Available Rivers hours drive - the list reads like a who's who of trout streamsThe Ausable SystemThe mainstream 'The Holy Water' - Trout Unlimited was foundedhereThe South Branch - featured in 'The Rise in the Ring'The East Branch - Petite rod testing waterThe Manistee - 8 - 12 miles west it is bigger water but wadable andhasmany decent fishThe Boardman - 45 miles awayThe Jordan - 50 miles away - the river is 22 miles long and 11 miles isFed & State (public) owned - pristine in beauty - Just remember to takeyourfly rod off the roof of your truck before you take off.The Pigeon - 60+ miles - the only trout stream this side ofYellowstonewhere you can be fishing and see wild elk grazing.#@$% ^%$# Creek - petite - mean to almost impossible fishing - 18"brook trout - map is sealed inside of a Single Malt Scotch bottle andlockedin the clubhouse safe TTBBBQ future plansTTBBBQ is simply a social event that developed last year to toast offtheend of two gatherings - The Compuserve FF forum and The Rodmakers gettogether. The plan is that it will continue on into the future. As for therodmakers get togethers I have let Ron organize that through The PlaningFormand last year it was one of two events especially for the bamboo rodmakinginterest. If for some reason there is a change of venue on Rons part I'msurethat there will be something happening at the 'Shopp' of interest torodmakers for years to come. FYI - TTBBQ is sponsored by The Fly Factory (Steve Southard) & Spikes(Vic Edwards) - they have committed any profits to go directly to localstream improvements projects - The idea is to have an enjoyable timewithfellow fly fishers Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 21:24:19 1996 Subject: Re: Weir Rods I recently wrote asking if anyone could decipher the serial number on my Weir and Sons Rod. It's a 7' 2/2 for a 4wt. Tthe number is M700-16-9. The M700 stands for medium weight action 7'. I'd like to when it was built and what happened to the company. I've checked the books by Schweibert, Keane and Spurr but did not find what I was looking for. Sorry for repeating myself, but I had somehow become unsubscribed.thanksz from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 21:40:53 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? I've been going by Bamboo rod craftsman for lack of any better idea.A.J.Thramer I've noticed the fans of things bamboo call themselves Bambuseros. Well?Ok ok, it was *just* a thought.... Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 22:05:14 1996 Subject: Lines for Cane Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 14:26:44 -0700 From: Michael Leitheiser Subject: Lines for Cane Recently tried the SciAnglr XPS series. Seem to be smaller diameter forweight than Cortland or other SciAnglers lines. (haven't mic'd them yet)Worked well on my cane, better than 44SL though not as well as old Orvisintermediates. Anyone else tried them? Comments? Mike in PDX from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 22:05:35 1996 Subject: Re: Castaways Reed, I'd love it, but my casting is so poorI'd probably be to embarrassed to do itin front of others, much less with someoneelse's good bamboo rods. Owen from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 05:06:41 1996 Subject: Re: Castaways Reed, I'd love it, but my casting is so poorI'd probably be to embarrassed to do itin front of others, much less with someoneelse's good bamboo rods. Owen Owen,I have a hard time adjusting to new and different rod actions, many people do. Come and try some, you might find the action that brings forth your best casting. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 10:06:57 1996 Subject: Re: Castaways Reed seez... How many list-members who live in New England/New York would like toget together on a stream some Saturday in May to test cast cane rods? Isuggest a stream because in order to examine the properties of diffent tapers/actions, it is helpful to be in a real fishing environment. If collectors were to bring some vintage actions, and makers/builderswere to bring their creations, we could each experience differentinterpretations of the "perfect" cane rod. We could have some mikes handy for taking off vintage tapers. Any takers? GREAT IDEA!!! I'd love to make it Reed, though I think the commute from St. Louis might be a bit extreme! :-) However, anyone in the vicinity of the country's navel (read: Missouri :-)who might be interested in a similar encounter, just let me know! As amatter of fact, just this past Friday, fellow listmember, Bill Lambersonand I met on one of the small Missouri streams for some trout fishing androdmaking talk. For show & tell, I brought along my freshly sanded,first rod attempt, and Bill brought along a prototype of a spline formerhe's been working on. It was a great day, and well worth repeating.So, any interested Navel-ites...let's plan an encounter!!! Also, I'm planning on driving up to Graylock next month for TBBBQII. enroute between STL and Graylock who would like to carpool, let meknow. Some company on the trip would be great... Mike - show & tell - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 16:22:17 1996 Subject: HELP HELP I need Black Snake Guieds, size 1/0, 1 and 2.PERFECTION prefferd. email ASAP thanksA.J. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 16:45:13 1996 Subject: Spline former (Was Re: Castaways) In an informative, enjoyable postingotherwise ruthlessly deleted, Mike Biondosaid: sanded, first rod attempt, and Bill broughtalong a prototype of a spline former he'sbeen working on. Gee, please tell us more about that spline former.How does it work? Is it anything like the millerthat the estimable Mr. Zimny brought to LivingstonManor last year? Details eagerly awaited. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 21:08:59 1996 Subject: Re: WISE FISHERMANS ENCYCLOPEDIA John Moldenhauer of Rising Trout Books in Elmra, ON Canada wouldprobablyhave one, I have one if you need something looked up. JB I AM TRYING TO FIND A COPY OF "THE WISE FISHERMANS ENCYCLOPEDIA",DOES ANYONEHAVE AN IDEA WHERE I CAN GET ONE? I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO HEAR FROMANYONEWHO HASBUILT A BINDER DESCRIBED BY CHRIS LUCKER IN THE PLANING FORM. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 21:17:27 1996 Subject: Re: 60 deg. point for dial gage? Find out who sells machinest tools in you area, these suppliers haveeverything (if you live in a densely populated area. I think Starret ins inMass. Try directory assistance. JB>Does anyone know where I can find a 60 degree point for a dialgage/indicator? I know that Starett carries them, but I can'tfind their phone number. Thanks,Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 21:54:15 1996 Subject: Re: 60 deg. point for dial gage? JB>Does anyone know where I can find a 60 degree point for a dialgage/indicator? I know that Starett carries them, but I can'tfind their phone number. Thanks,Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil Starrett is in Athol, Mass. Don't have the number anywhere around, sorry.But I *did* drive past the plant the other day! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 23:36:56 1996 Subject: Re: 60 deg. point for dial gage? At 11:57 5/5/96 -0500, you wrote: Does anyone know where I can find a 60 degree point for a dialgage/indicator? I know that Starett carries them, but I can'tfind their phone number. Thanks,Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil Jerry,The phone number for L.S. Starrett Co. is (508) 249-3551 Fax (508) 249-8495The suggested retail price for part no. 6632/6 contact point is $3.05I hope this is helpful.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 05:52:15 1996 Subject: LOOSE FERRULES I noticed a question the other day concerning loose ferrules. While visitinga fellow rod builders shop a few months ago he showed me a " TEMPORARYFIX"that he uses. He had replaced the cutting blade in a very small tube cutterwith a roller. By slowly increasing the pressure as he rotated the cutteraround the ferrule he could tighten the ferrule up enough to make itserviceable. I have not tried this but it looks like it should work as a "TEMPORARY FIX " Anyone out there ever tried anything like this? Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 07:04:36 1996 Subject: Re: Spline former The spline former is an idea developed from Bruce Conner's description of a method to build quadrate's without planing forms. It is also described in book's by Moss and mentioned in Schweibert's "Trout". The former is simply a strip of hard maple about 1" square, shaped on a jointer. It has angles of 60, 90, 120, and 90 degrees. The point of the 60 degree angle is planed off and replaced by cane. The former is designed to be run over a router with a pattern making bit so the excess cane is removed. My hope is to use the former for preliminary preparation of cane prior to final planing. I have tested the method only with a short strip of cane. It seemed to work OK. Are the there other out there making use of similar methods? Bill LambersonAssociate Professor of Animal SciencesUniversity of Missouri- ColumbiaColumbia, MO 65211 314 882-8234wlambers@mail.coin.missouri.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 07:44:12 1996 Subject: Re: LOOSE FERRULES Dear Mark, I think I invented the tubing cutter trick about 10 years ago. Ireplaced the cutting wheels with small bearing races. It does work, but isapowerful tool and you have to proceed with caution. It is very easy tosqueeze too hard and make the fit too tight. Start at the base of thefemaleferrule and work toward the tip in several increments, being very careful,and continually test fitting. Regards - Tom from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 08:12:30 1996 Subject: Re: Tempering cane - Why? In a message dated 96-05-03 02:53:26 EDT, you write: Have tried a number of experiments to determine the "best" way totempercane. Have used pipe ovens, direct flaming and convection/recirculationovens @ all kinds of temps/times. Spent a sack full of time and $'s andstill have no definitive answer. I, like a lot or all of us, believe thattempering somehow effects the stiffness of the cane. Unfortunaltey,severalof my experiments show that tempered cane is actually less stiff thanuntempered cane. The tests I used were: Hello Don: Much agreement on the prevailing wisdom concerning tempering; Isomehowalways feel that it just has to be tempered. Also much agreement thatsomereally serious testing should be done to determine just what effecttemperingactually has on cane. An early Planing Form edition published such a test,and it indicated tempering more severe than the Garrison time/tempformulasincreased stiffness greater than Garrison's formula. You did not mentionwhat the test specifics were, so I have the following questions. Thesequestions in no way implies that your results are in question. (1) Were the strips all of the same dimension? (had to ask)(2) Were they all from the same culm?(3) Were they from cane that had been thoroughly seasoned (dried) or stillrelatively green? This tempering thing may well be a myth. Want a noodle or a fast rod? Ithink either can be developed regardless of how the bamboo is treatedpriorplaning. The catch word here is developed. Or look at it another way. Lets say a certain t/t formula actuallyincreasedstiffness of the cane by 50%. Does it not hold that cane so treated can befashioned into most any action, noodle to very fast? Statistics of "one" are really suspect, but here is one example that mayshedsome muddle on the subject. A friend had a 6' #4 2-pc rod that is a nicelysmooth, soft to medium action - really a pleasure to cast. It was reportedto have been built from a prototype blank left over from the Leonard Co.andlooked as tho the cane had never seen the inside of an oven. This is areally sweet casting fly rod. He duplicated the rod using cane that wasrichly flamed and then heat-treated. I am not sure of the T/T's of thetreatment, but it was at least as much as the Garrison prescription. Hewasdisappointed in the results because the rod was really quite stiff bycomparison, a much faster rod. The original had quite a heavy varnish job,so am neither sure how much that affected it's action nor how much thecopymay have been oversized by assuming a thinner varnish than actuallyexists onthe original. However, the difference is really remarkable and the heattreatment cannot be arbitrarily ruled out as playing some part in theincreased stiffness. As mentioned, this is a statistic of one. Also, haveseen some blond rods that were real powerhouses. You also wrote:This was done for 5 splines which had beentempered by various methods. A 6th spline was left untempered as acontrol.The control spline did better than several of the others. Just a suggestion: should you do further tests, perhaps it would be a fairertest if the individual splines were tested against themselves rather thanothers. This may give truer results (tho not necessarily significantly so)given the variability of cane, even to the point of differences from striptostrip as one progresses around the culm. The suggestion is to test eachstrip before and after heat treatment. Just a thought. You also wrote:Have used pipe ovens, direct flaming and convection/recirculationovens @ all kinds of temps/times. My oven is made with a mica heat strip, and tend to concentrate the heatinthe center. Would really appreciate any info you could supply on how tomodify it to 'recirculating' status. Fans and sources, necessary baffles,etc. Guess my two cents worth is up. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 12:29:36 1996 Subject: Cane Tournament Casting Rods? Thanks everyone for your input on the Paul Young Para-15. It helpedme a lot to understand the stress graph I was looking at. Now, my next question....I have read references to tournament casting rods. I am assuming theseare for distance casting. Does anyone have a taper formula for such arod? I would like to see the stress graph generated and possibly figureout why such a taper can cast farther than ordinary rods.Thanks in advance. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 12:36:23 1996 Subject: "Bamboo's better then Graphite because....." Several people in this list have posted comments about graphite vs.bamboo and why a person would chose one over the other. One of the reasons was the "Quick loading" quality of most bamboo rods. At the time I commented that I'd have to go back to the casting pond to check this out. Well, this last weekend I got a chance to check it out. Here's my experience. My wife was attending an national nurses society meeting in Charlotte, NC and ask me to tag along. I just happened to take some fishing gear. Among the gear was two seven foot and an eight foot travel rods. On a whim I threw my little six foot bamboo rod in with the rest. On our arrival I made enquires as to the closes trout fishing. (Jesse Brown's 4732-2M Sharon Rd,Charlotte 704-523-9094 seems to know themost about flyfishing in that area.) They directed me to South Mountain State Park, about 65 miles north west of Charlotte.After I got to the park and before unlocking the trunk, I walked down tothe stream.It was a fast flowing, rock strewn, mountain stream. It was bouldered on both sides by overhanging trees and brush. I don't think it was over 40 ft. wide at it's widest point and 20 ft would be average. I went back to the car and pulled out the little 6ft. bamboo rod. Fishing that day required mostly roll casts and very short casts. Often I had to "shoot" line because I didn't have sufficient space behind me tomake a classic back cast. All of this I did fine with my bamboo rod. The ability to load the rod in confined areas was a real plus. I enjoyed fishing that stream and caught and released many trout. The next day I visited a small lake, in another state park, this time going after sunfish.I used one of the Graphite rods I'd brought and found that It wouldn't work at all in tight places. Each time I got in a confined space I found the rod wanting. I couldn't even get a decent roll cast out of it.... I'd say that one of the real selling points of Bamboo is this ability to fish in limited spaces. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 13:21:57 1996 Subject: Loose ferrules Mark,I have not tried this but a friend of mine who is making a lot of rods hasbuilt a jig very similar to the pipe clamping tool that is used inconjunctionwith the tubing cutter you ask about. He drilled a hole the od of theferrule,and than cut the piece of steel in two down the middle of the hole. Now thekerf of the saw blade has removed some of the diameter so when this isclampedaround the ferrule, it is tight. I think that he used screws to tighten thisbut I don't see why you couldn't just use a vice.As far as rolling the modified tubing cutter around the ferrule I supposethatif you were very carful not to tighten the screw down too much at onetime, itcould work but I would be very carfull here. Possibi~ly you could modifythestock tubing clamp?Good LuckMartin from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 14:05:34 1996 Subject: Re: "Bamboo's better then Graphite because....." On May 7, Fla. Terry wrote (edited): Several people in this list have posted comments about graphite vs.bamboo and why a person would chose one over the other. One of the reasons was the "Quick loading" quality of most bamboo rods. At the time I commented that I'd have to go back to the casting pond to check this out. Well, this last weekend I got a chance to check it out. Here's my experience.... Fishing that day required mostly roll casts and very short casts. Often I had to "shoot" line because I didn't have sufficient space behind me tomake a classic back cast. All of this I did fine with my bamboo rod. The ability to load the rod in confined areas was a real plus. I enjoyed fishing that stream and caught and released many trout. The next day I visited a small lake, in another state park, this time going after sunfish.I used one of the Graphite rods I'd brought and found that It wouldn't work at all in tight places. Each time I got in a confined space I found the rod wanting. I couldn't even get a decent roll cast out of it.... I'd say that one of the real selling points of Bamboo is this ability to fish in limited spaces. Fla. Terry Terry Kirkpatrick*** My reply: I agree wholeheartedly. This was also the point of my posting of a few weeks ago about using unfashionable 7 and 8 wt. cane rods to fish small streams for bass. With a good cane rod I can cast things like #2 streamers in relatively tight places with ease. I believe that the light weight of graphite is a meaningless obsession. I am only of average size and strength, but I have no trouble using a 4.5 to 5 ounce rod all day (yes, I enjoy smaller cane rods even more!). To me, the aggressive windshield-wipercasting action needed when you are trying to get graphite to bend with a short line is much more tiring than carrying around a few more ounces. And, if you do get tired, you can always take a break and admire the craftsmanship of your cane rod... Missouri Terry Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 14:17:15 1996 Subject: Line wt question My friends who found the Montague with the blue reel seat have now founda Heddon. It's marked Heddon Premium, 9 ft, 4 1/2 oz. Anyone have one like it or know anything about it? They wonder what line wt it requires.Thanks,John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 14:25:17 1996 Subject: Re: Line wt question try a five dt or 6wf from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 14:40:18 1996 Subject: overwrap & varnish thinning I have a couple of things I could use some advice on. #1 I'm restoring a tip section that has a parallel surface crack on one of the tapers about 10" from the tip. The crack appears more like a splinter abount 1/2" in length and not completely through the section. I want to do an overwrap so I can fish with it. Question: What color of nylon thread might best dissapear when I varnish it. I won't use color preserver of course. Any opinions would save me the time of testing. #2 I have usually used one coat of full strength spar varnish when dipping. Can I thin it with mineral spirits so that I can have a lighter coat of varnish. Does this work well? What would be a good startingpoint thinning it way down and dipping several coats? I went fishing Sunday on the middle fork of the Willamette River inOregon. My first day of fishing with bamboo. Didn't catch anything, but I sure enjoyed the casting. Thanks for any help you can provide. Mac from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 16:15:50 1996 Subject: Fwd: Re: LOOSE FERRULES ---------------------Forwarded message: Dear Mark, I think I invented the tubing cutter trick about 10 years ago. Ireplaced the cutting wheels with small bearing races. It does work, but isapowerful tool and you have to proceed with caution. It is very easy tosqueeze too hard and make the fit too tight. Start at the base of thefemaleferrule and work toward the tip in several increments, being very careful,and continually test fitting. Regards - Tom from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 16:20:30 1996 Subject: Re: overwrap & varnish thinning With Regard to repairing a splinter in a tip section, I would first glue thesplinter down with epoxy or titebond and bind the area with cotton bindingthread. When the glue dries, clean up the excess,wrap with white silk, andfinish with spar varnish. The silk and varnish seems to disappear betterthananything I know of. Make sure your hands do not leave any oil on the silk. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 16:46:55 1996 Subject: Re: overwrap & varnish thinning On Tue, 7 May 96 12:15:26 PDT, CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: I have a couple of things I could use some advice on. #1 I'm restoring a tip section that has a parallel surface crack on one of the tapers about 10" from the tip. The crack appears more like a splinter abount 1/2" in length and not completely through the section. I want todo an overwrap so I can fish with it. Question: What color of nylon thread might best dissapear when I varnish it. I won't use color preserver of course. Any opinions would save me the time of testing. A local expert told me to use really fine white silk. He showed me a wrap and it was invisible. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 19:10:18 1996 Subject: Re: "Bamboo's better then Graphite because....." At 01:24 PM 5/7/96 EDT, you wrote: Several people in this list have posted comments about graphite vs.bamboo and why a person would chose one over the other. One of the reasons was the "Quick loading" quality of most bamboo rods. At the time Icommented that I'd have to go back to the casting pond to check this out. Well, this last weekend I got a chance to check it out. Here's my experience. My wife was attending an national nurses society meeting in Charlotte,NC and ask me to tag along. I just happened to take some fishing gear. Among the gear was two seven foot and an eight foot travel rods. On a whim I threw my little six foot bamboo rod in with the rest. On our arrival I made enquires as to the closes trout fishing. (Jesse Brown's 4732-2M Sharon Rd,Charlotte 704-523-9094 seems to know themost about flyfishing in that area.) They directed me to South Mountain State Park, about 65 miles north west of Charlotte.After I got to the park and before unlocking the trunk, I walked down tothe stream.It was a fast flowing, rock strewn, mountain stream. It was bouldered on both sides by overhanging trees and brush. I don't think it was over 40 ft. wide at it's widest point and 20 ft would be average. I went back to the car and pulled out the little 6ft. bamboo rod. Fishing that day required mostly roll casts and very short casts. Often I had to "shoot" line because I didn't have sufficient space behind me tomake a classic back cast. All of this I did fine with my bamboo rod. The ability to load the rod in confined areas was a real plus. I enjoyed fishing that stream and caught and released many trout. The next day I visited a small lake, in another state park, this time going after sunfish.I used one of the Graphite rods I'd brought and found that It wouldn't work at all in tight places. Each time I got in a confined space I found the rod wanting. I couldn't even get a decent roll cast out of it.... I'd say that one of the real selling points of Bamboo is this ability to fish in limited spaces. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu Terry: I'm interested in a bamboo rod for small streams. Yours seems to justright. Care to share the taper? Dennis from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 19:26:10 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Tournament Casting Rods? Does anyone have a taper formula for such arod? I would like to see the stress graph generated and possibly figureout why such a taper can cast farther than ordinary rods.Darryl,The early tournament rods were later adopted as dry fly rods (see St. John, et al); "with a heavy butt and light, flexible tip, this rod possesses both power and fine dry fly action." Kreider said this of a 9.5' 3pc Leobard Tournament rod. Do you have Kreider's book? If not, ChrisBogart made one of these for smallmouth bass fishing, he probably has a softcopyof the taper; saves typing it in again. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 20:20:39 1996 Subject: Re: LOOSE FERRULES I noticed a question the other day concerning loose ferrules. Whilevisitinga fellow rod builders shop a few months ago he showed me a " TEMPORARYFIX"that he uses. He had replaced the cutting blade in a very small tube cutterwith a roller. By slowly increasing the pressure as he rotated the cutteraround the ferrule he could tighten the ferrule up enough to make itserviceable. I have not tried this but it looks like it should work as a "TEMPORARY FIX " Anyone out there ever tried anything like this? Mark Have use the three jaw chuck on my lathe. Remove it from the lather andinstall in my shop vise. Tape offending female ferrule and tighten lathejaws in a number of locations. Works OK but this idea seems to make a lotofsense. Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 20:51:39 1996 Subject: Re: overwrap & varnish thinning I have a couple of things I could use some advice on. #1 I'm restoring a tip section that has a parallel surface crack on one of the tapers about 10" from the tip. The crack appears more like a splinter abount 1/2" in length and not completely through the section. I want todo an overwrap so I can fish with it. Question: What color of nylon thread might best dissapear when I varnish it. I won't use color preserver of course. Any opinions would save me the time of testing. Mac,I use white nylon - the smallest diameter you can get. Tried white silk andthe wraps are not nearly as clear as with nylon. Use a good grade of sparwarnish on the wraps. About 4>5 should do it. Don #2 I have usually used one coat of full strength spar varnish when dipping. Can I thin it with mineral spirits so that I can have a lighter coat of varnish. Does this work well? What would be a good startingpoint thinning it way down and dipping several coats? I went fishing Sunday on the middle fork of the Willamette River inOregon. My first day of fishing with bamboo. Didn't catch anything, but I sure enjoyed the casting. Thanks for any help you can provide. Mac from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 21:08:21 1996 Subject: Re: overwrap & varnish thinning Date: Tue, 7 May 96 16:23:13 CST From: "John Carter" Subject: Re: overwrap & varnish thinning On Tue, 7 May 96 12:15:26 PDT, CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: I have a couple of things I could use some advice on. #1 I'm restoring a tip section that has a parallel surface crack on oneof the tapers about 10" from the tip. The crack appears more like asplinter abount 1/2" in length and not completely through the section. I want todo an overwrap so I can fish with it. Question: What color of nylon thread might best dissapear when I varnish it. I won't use color preserver of course. Any opinions would save me the time of testing. A local expert told me to use really fine white silk. He showed me awrap and it was invisible. John Fine White thread is the right answer!! Whatever you do, do not use any Nylon NCP thread. It will not be almost invisible at all! Ian ScottIan ScottWishbone Custom Rods wishbone@headwaters.comhttp://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone ********************************************************************************************* "The butterfly counts not months but moments,and has time enough." Rabindranath TagoreFireflies, 1928 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 11:32:27 1996 Subject: Re: "Bamboo's better then Graphite because....." =>Terry:==I'm interested in a bamboo rod for small streams. Yours seems to just=right. Care to share the taper?==Dennis I could give you the 'flat to flat' dimensions. I assembled the rod, I didn't build it fromscratch. I'd ordered a pre-owned bamboo rod from Centennial Sales (Classic Angler) and when I got it, the shipping carton looked like the letter "L." (Never order anything breakable during the Christmas rush.) I was upset and on a whim stopped in a Pawn Shop. He had a rod but he also mentioned that hehad some extra tips he'd sell me at $6.00 each. He had to bring them from home. When I picked them up, I found I had three tips and one mid-section, all from different rods. The tips were all from 9ft. rods, but the mid section appeared to be from an 8ft. rod. I corrected the length of the (now) butt section by adding copper tubingcut to length and filling it with a dowel. I glued and pinned them together, then the copper tubing was pinned and glued to the male ferrule on the new butt section. Two of the tips fit the new but section, so I selected the one that looked better to me. Cabela's supplied the real seat and handle and I salvaged the enough snake guides from the pieces that I didn't have to buy any. I can't remember where I got the stripper guide. After re-rapping the guides I wiped the rod with spar varnish and set it aside to dry. One interesting point. After fishing the rod, I decided to try the other tip. I took it just as it was, which means that at least one snake guide is missing. When I tried casting any length at all the whole rod vibrated so bad that I was afraid it would break in my hand. It actually moved my arm! I'm curious if it was the combination of tapers that caused the vibration orthe fact that the tip had guides missing and spaced at entirely different locations then the original tip? Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 11:47:00 1996 Subject: glue and Tool Traditions I have been having trouble with glue failures in the spline joints of myfirst rod (nodeless). In my hands, URAC (mixed from powder) just does notmake a satisfactory joint. I follow the mixing directions, use the GF-10wetting solution, stir for several minutes, wait 5 minutes, stir again,clamp for 24 hours (at approximately 60 degrees), then remove the clampsand cure in a 90 degree cabinet for several days. The joints look good andflex reasonably. However, when flexures appropriate for the tip are a In contrast, all of my Titebond II spline joints (including the very firstone) were stronger than the bamboo surrounding them. However, I wasinitially discouraged from using Titebond II because of its 1) failurepotential at temperatures high enough to straighten epoxy-glued strips (ifI were to use epoxy to glue the six strips) and 2) short open time whichmight rush me as I bind and wet- straighten the strips (if I were to useTitebond II throughout). My URAC failures cause me to rethink using Titebond II for both spline andstrip joints, but I'd like to ask for advice before I reinvent the wheel. Isthere something other than the low starting temperature that I amoverlooking in my use of URAC? How much time do you think I really needto bind and straighten? Is any one out there using Titebond II for all theirbamboo joints? When the Titebond II is dry, can you heat-straighten itwithout glue failure? If binding time presents a problem, have you tr BTW, I had an order in with Tool Traditions for a Lie-Nielson scraper thatseemed to be taking a long time. When I called them, I learned that TT isno longer taking orders and that my refund check "is in the mail." Surelythe check will arrive today and I'll again be in the market for a scraper. Iam aware of Woodcraft, does anyone recommend a different mail source? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 12:14:09 1996 Subject: Re: Oven Help To all, I have just finished a hot air oven. Used a 6" triple wall insulated pipewith a three inch galvanized inside pipe. As yet I have not been able toget oven temps to even out. Tied extra insulation and the bottom of theoven still does not get above 250 degrees, while the top two thirds is at375 degrees or above. have run oven as long as 25 minutes and thebottomTemp still top temps as high as 400 degrees. The bottom temp stayedbelow250. I am using a Makita heat gun with full variable temp control, but Iam thinking it may not be putting out enough volume of hot air? Any or help will be greatly appreciated as I have just finished rough planingmy 1st rod and I am very anxious to heat treat so I can get to the streamwith my own rod. Thanks again for the help. Jim Fillpot ============================================================================ Jim.............. Did you ever get some input about your problem ?? I amabout ready to bring up my oven that is like yours and now I have newconcerns about getting the temperature distribution right. Karl HubeMarietta, Georgia from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 13:10:11 1996 Subject: Rod To whom it may concern, I am not a list member, and would appreciate any responses directly to myemail address (baxter@zoology.ubc.ca). I am looking into buying a used cane rod from a guy here in Vancouver, andwould like some info on what it is worth. It is a Hardy Palacona "The Kenya" 3 piece rod with a spare tip. I knowthatthe rod was built 1955ish from the number on the rod, and it is in allrightshape, with some bad wear on the cork handle. Thanks for any responses. James Baxter from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 13:10:30 1996 Subject: repost: glue and Tool Traditions I have been having trouble with glue failures in the spline joints of my first rod (nodeless). In my hands, URAC (mixed from powder) just does not make a satisfactory joint. I follow the mixing directions, use the GF-10 wetting solution, stir for several minutes, wait 5 minutes, stir again, clamp for 24 hours (at approximately 60 degrees), then remove the clamps and cure in a 90 degree cabinet for several days. The joints look good and flex reasonably. However, when flexures appropriate for the tip are applied to split, unplaned joints, the glue fails well before the bamboo breaks. Maybe my application temperature is too low, but I don't wish to heat the basement more or work in the summer exclusively. In contrast, all of my Titebond II spline joints (including the very first one) were stronger than the bamboo surrounding them. However, I was initially discouraged from using Titebond II because of its 1) failure potential at temperatures high enough to straighten epoxy-glued strips (if I were to use epoxy to glue the six strips) and 2) short open time which might rush me as I bind and wet- straighten the strips (if I were to use Titebond II throughout). My URAC failures cause me to rethink using Titebond II advice before I reinvent the wheel. Is there something other than the low starting temperature that I am overlooking in my use of URAC? How much time do you think I really need to bind and straighten? Is any one out there using Titebond II for all their bamboo joints? When the Titebond II is dry, can you heat-straighten it without glue failure? If binding time presents a problem, have you tried Titebond II Extend? BTW, I had an order in with Tool Traditions for a Lie-Nielson scraper that seemed to be taking a long time. When I called them, I learned that TT is no longer taking orders and that my refund check "is in the mail." Surely the check will arrive today and I'll again be in the market recommend a different mail source? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 13:20:21 1996 Subject: Scraper Source Call Tom directly 1 - 800 - 327 - 2520 or 1 - 207 - 273 - 2520 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 13:20:48 1996 Subject: Re: glue and Tool Traditions rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu's message of 08-May-96 11:36 boundary=Boundary-2112303-0-0 --Boundary-2112303-0-0 Use regular Titebond glue and spring clamps. I have built numerousnodeless rods this way and have never had a failure- Titebond takes heat well. Clamp together (with urac) after final planing each splice will be glued on twomore surfaces. I frequently use scrap pieces of bamboo and splice them for use under the grip and reel seat. The titebond survives heat treating at 375deg. Good luck. John Long Northville, Mich. --Boundary-2112303-0-0 Subject: glue and Tool Traditions CREN I have been having trouble with glue failures in the spline joints of myfirst rod(nodeless). In my hands, URAC (mixed from powder) just does not make asatisfactoryjoint. I follow the mixing directions, use the GF-10 wetting solution, stir minutes, wait 5 minutes, stir again, clamp for 24 hours (at approximately60 degrees),then remove the clamps and cure in a 90 degree cabinet for several days. The joints lookgood and flex reasonably. However, when flexures appropriate for the tipare a In contrast, all of my Titebond II spline joints (including the very firstone) werestronger than the bamboo surrounding them. However, I was initiallydiscouraged fromusing Titebond II because of its 1) failure potential at temperatures highenough tostraighten epoxy-glued strips (if I were to use epoxy to glue the sixstrips) and 2) shortopen time which might rush me as I bind and wet-straighten the strips (ifI were to useTitebond II throughout). My URAC failures cause me to rethink using Titebond II for both spline andstrip joints, butI'd like to ask for advice before I reinvent the wheel. Is there somethingother than thelow starting temperature that I am overlooking in my use of URAC? Howmuch time do you thinkI really need to bind and straighten? Is any one out there using Titebond II bamboo joints? When the Titebond II is dry, can you heat-straighten itwithout gluefailure? If binding time presents a problem, have you tr BTW, I had an order in with Tool Traditions for a Lie-Nielson scraper thatseemed to betaking a long time. When I called them, I learned that TT is no longertaking orders and thatmy refund check "is in the mail." Surely the check will arrive today andI'll again be in themarket for a scraper. I am aware of Woodcraft, does anyone recommend adifferent mailsource? --Boundary-2112303-0-0-- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 13:21:56 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Depends on the line weight and length. Hardy rods are not so easy to sell especially over 8 feet.I would think that for a mint longer one maybe 450.00 and for a mint 8 foot or under 5-600. I have a 2 piece Hardy 2 tip Faery 7 foot for #4 weight--the most desirable of these rods, and I would value it at 600.00 though I might not be able to get that for it. John Friedman from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 15:00:47 1996 Subject: Re: Lie-Nielsen (Was Re: glue and Tool Traditions) Why not just go directly to Lie-Nielsen.I don't think it will cost you any more, andanyone who makes tools that good deserves toget the whole profit. The address is: Lie-Nielsen Toolworks, Inc.P.O. Box 9Route 1Warren, Maine 04864 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 17:27:18 1996 Subject: Re: Rod To whom it may concern, I am not a list member, and would appreciate any responses directly tomyemail address (baxter@zoology.ubc.ca). I am looking into buying a used cane rod from a guy here in Vancouver, andwould like some info on what it is worth. It is a Hardy Palacona "The Kenya" 3 piece rod with a spare tip. I knowthatthe rod was built 1955ish from the number on the rod, and it is inallrightshape, with some bad wear on the cork handle. Thanks for any responses. James Baxter I'd bid $300. It is a rare rod so a good seller would use this fact toraise the price. I would not ever give $500 for it. Don't get bad concienceif your man only wants $250 for it. Hardy Bros wrote about the rod in 1955:"A light, yet powerful rod designed to handle fish up to 5 lbs and to meetthe special requirements of anglers in Kenya. The rod is short fortransport-and capable of tackling heavy strong fish, and to hold them outof snags." --Terje Tveras, Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 18:14:21 1996 Subject: Replys to my posting To whom it may concern, If you replied to my posting regarding the cane rod could you please replytomy email address so I can read what you have to say. Thanks James Baxterbaxter@zoology.ubc.ca from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 18:25:28 1996 Subject: Re: Rod i dont mean to butt in but is the fellow from norway talking about u.s.dollars or canadian. looks like orginal post is canadian. i was incanada a month ago the rate was pretty steep. i think it was 30% Thanks for reminding me ... I was thinking in US dollar! Sorry, Canadians. --Terje in Norway from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 19:01:30 1996 Subject: Re: Fishing - 60 deg points - TTBBBQII cabins At 09:51 PM 5/5/96 -0400, you wrote: 60 Degree Starret Points (part # 6632/6)As I have offered in the past - if anyone wants one - just e - mail anaddress and I will gladly send. If for some reason anyone that has askedforone and hasn't got one send address again. Occassionally it seems as ifAOLends up burning excess mail under a overpass in Chicago somewhere. I'm still interested if you have an extra one: Tom Noto, 4017 23rd StreetNorth, Arlington, VA 22207 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 19:14:51 1996 Subject: Re: glue and Tool Traditions You can order direct from Lie-Nielson. JB> I have been having trouble with glue failures in the spline joints of myfirst rod (nodeless). In my hands, URAC (mixed from powder) just does notmake a satisfactory joint. I follow the mixing directions, use the GF-10wetting solution, stir for several minutes, wait 5 minutes, stir again,clamp for 24 hours (at approximately 60 degrees), then remove the clampsandcure in a 90 degree cabinet for several days. The joints look good and flexreasonably. However, when flexures appropriate for the tip are a In contrast, all of my Titebond II spline joints (including the very firstone) were stronger than the bamboo surrounding them. However, I wasinitially discouraged from using Titebond II because of its 1) failurepotential at temperatures high enough to straighten epoxy-glued strips (ifIwere to use epoxy to glue the six strips) and 2) short open time whichmightrush me as I bind and wet- straighten the strips (if I were to use TitebondII throughout). My URAC failures cause me to rethink using Titebond II for both splineandstrip joints, but I'd like to ask for advice before I reinvent the wheel.Is there something other than the low starting temperature that I amoverlooking in my use of URAC? How much time do you think I really needtobind and straighten? Is any one out there using Titebond II for all theirbamboo joints? When the Titebond II is dry, can you heat-straighten itwithout glue failure? If binding time presents a problem, have you tr BTW, I had an order in with Tool Traditions for a Lie-Nielson scraper thatseemed to be taking a long time. When I called them, I learned that TT isno longer taking orders and that my refund check "is in the mail." Surelythe check will arrive today and I'll again be in the market for a scraper.I am aware of Woodcraft, does anyone recommend a different mail source? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 19:21:53 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Terje Tveras wrote: To whom it may concern, I am not a list member, and would appreciate any responses directly tomyemail address (baxter@zoology.ubc.ca). I am looking into buying a used cane rod from a guy here in Vancouver,andwould like some info on what it is worth. It is a Hardy Palacona "The Kenya" 3 piece rod with a spare tip. I knowthatthe rod was built 1955ish from the number on the rod, and it is inallrightshape, with some bad wear on the cork handle. Thanks for anyresponses. James Baxter I'd bid $300. It is a rare rod so a good seller would use this fact toraise the price. I would not ever give $500 for it. Don't get bad concienceif your man only wants $250 for it. Hardy Bros wrote about the rod in 1955:"A light, yet powerful rod designed to handle fish up to 5 lbs and to meetthe special requirements of anglers in Kenya. The rod is short fortransport-and capable of tackling heavy strong fish, and to hold them outof snags." --Terje Tveras, Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no i dont mean to butt in but is the fellow from norway talking about u.s. dollars or canadian. looks like orginal post is canadian. i was in canada a month ago the rate was pretty steep. i think it was 30% from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 22:28:38 1996 Subject: Re: Oven Help Jim and Karl,When I first started this silly business I got a 5",1/4" wall, 5' longal. tube, placed a 300 watt bulb at the bottom,surrounded the tube withpinkpanther insulation and spent hours monitoring temps and swapping ends inthetube. I don't believe that there's any way to even out the temp in a verticaltube. I'm now using one of Wayne's ovens to good effect. If you want somemytemps times in the tube I'll be glad to e-mail 'em to you but not on thelist.Good luck,Hank Woolman. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 01:24:40 1996 Subject: Re: "Bamboo's better then Graphite because....." The tapers.A.J. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 08:22:25 1996 Subject: Re: glue and Tool Traditions Thanks for the info.I too had many many problems with urac on splices. I suspect the problem was with the temperature of my basement (too cold ~55F). I did all my tip splices early in the winter (december), and they were just fine, but I did my butt splices in mid January and not one of them held together.I then used Titebond II on the splices, and excel on the strips. I hope what you're right about the temperature resistance, because I'm about to straighten my blank. I will in the future use only Excel for both. This is very good glue.Daryl was the one who suggested Excel, and I have been pleased. I don't recomend urac at all. Excel is a one part glue with a much faster drying time, and can be used at lower room temperatures, and is both heat and water resistant, and is not water based, (Titebone II is) so it wont add any water to your strips. It's good to know I'm not the only one with the urac problems.Mauro. On Wed, 8 May 1996 LONGJ@detroitedison.com wrote: --Boundary-2112303-0-0 Use regular Titebond glue and spring clamps. I have built numerousnodeless rods this way and have never had a failure- Titebond takes heat well. Clamp together (with urac) after final planing each splice will be glued on twomore surfaces. I frequently use scrap pieces of bamboo and splice them foruse under the grip and reel seat. The titebond survives heat treating at 375deg. Good luck. John Long Northville, Mich. --Boundary-2112303-0-0X-Orcl-Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: 08 May 1996 12:41:41 Sent: 08 May 1996 11:36:12From:"owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: glue and Tool Traditions X-Orcl-Application: Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduX-Orcl- Application: X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.1 -- ListProcessor byCREN I have been having trouble with glue failures in the spline joints of myfirst rod(nodeless). In my hands, URAC (mixed from powder) just does not make asatisfactoryjoint. I follow the mixing directions, use the GF-10 wetting solution,stir for severalminutes, wait 5 minutes, stir again, clamp for 24 hours (atapproximately 60 degrees),then remove the clamps and cure in a 90 degree cabinet for several days. The joints lookgood and flex reasonably. However, when flexures appropriate for the tipare a In contrast, all of my Titebond II spline joints (including the very firstone) werestronger than the bamboo surrounding them. However, I was initiallydiscouraged fromusing Titebond II because of its 1) failure potential at temperatures highenough tostraighten epoxy-glued strips (if I were to use epoxy to glue the sixstrips) and 2) shortopen time which might rush me as I bind and wet-straighten the strips(if I were to useTitebond II throughout). My URAC failures cause me to rethink using Titebond II for both splineand strip joints, butI'd like to ask for advice before I reinvent the wheel. Is there somethingother than thelow starting temperature that I am overlooking in my use of URAC? Howmuch time do you thinkI really need to bind and straighten? Is any one out there using TitebondII for all theirbamboo joints? When the Titebond II is dry, can you heat-straighten itwithout gluefailure? If binding time presents a problem, have you tr BTW, I had an order in with Tool Traditions for a Lie-Nielson scraperthat seemed to betaking a long time. When I called them, I learned that TT is no longertaking orders and thatmy refund check "is in the mail." Surely the check will arrive today andI'll again be in themarket for a scraper. I am aware of Woodcraft, does anyone recommenda different mailsource? --Boundary-2112303-0-0-- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 10:24:00 1996 Subject: Defense of URAC It is really difficult to see URAC 185 get such a bad rap! It has a super track record over the years and if the instructions arefollowed I don't see how people can have such bad results. We don't knowhowsome of the other glues are going to hold up in say 10 years- or 20? URAC specs say use in temps of 70-125 deg. F (they mean it)URAC specs give shelf life....(it has one- it may look good to use but wehave all heard the horror stories). I have always used URAC and as yet had no problems. I recommend it as theonly glue to use on bamboo rods. . I don't think I am alone in this thinking. Jon Parker@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 13:56:52 1996 Subject: Oven help Hi, I resubscribed to the list the other day, after my return from a vacation,so Idon't know Jim Fillpot's e-mail address and I didn't see the originalmessage.Thanks Don for letting me know about it. I published an article about my hot air oven in the Planing Form in 1993. Ialso uploaded an electronic version of it to the rodbuilders FTP server(AdobeAcrobat format) some time ago. I never experienced any trouble with myoven, somy oven is still the same as in the article. Very likely Jim's problems are caused by the hot air gun used incombinationwith the larger diameter outer pipe he used to build his oven. Perhaps hisovenis even taller than mine, but that shouldn' cause any problems. It is hard to find a solution to the problem without trying and testing thesettings of the hot air gun. According to the description of the problem Igot from Don Andersen think that the hot air gun does not produce enough airmovement to heat up the bottom of the oven. The high temperature at thetop ofthe inner pipe is caused by hot air that heats the inner pipe from theoutside.Try to borrow another different hot air gun of higher capacity and seewhatwill happen. Also try different temperature and fan settings. The highest settingdoesn'thave to be the most effective one. Good luck, Frank from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 17:43:47 1996 Subject: Re: glue and Tool Traditions I have read about your gluediscussion. I don=B4t recognize the glues you=B4re using. Here in Sweden I have used a PVAc-glue from Dana company and have never had a failure, even with nodeless, permanently spliced salmon-rods. I try not to heat - straighten rods to quickly after gluing. /Mikael(Have a look at my "how to - pages" for the beginner.http://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba- mma/flyfish.htm) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 19:43:49 1996 Subject: Re: Tempering cane - Why? Richard,I have summarized my comments within the body of the message.Don In a message dated 96-05-03 02:53:26 EDT, you write: Have tried a number of experiments to determine the "best" way totempercane. The tests I used were: Hello Don: Much agreement on the prevailing wisdom concerning tempering; Isomehowalways feel that it just has to be tempered. Also much agreement thatsomereally serious testing should be done to determine just what effecttemperingactually has on cane. An early Planing Form edition published such a test, I presented my test results @ the bamboo meeting in Merritt B.C. a numberofyears ago and they were published in the Planing Form. (1) Were the strips all of the same dimension? (had to ask) They were. The strips, if I recall correctly, were from the dimensions of aGarrison 212 from the center section of the rod ignoring the taper rise @the ferrule. (2) Were they all from the same culm? The strips were "soul mates". Split side by side. (3) Were they from cane that had been thoroughly seasoned (dried) orstillrelatively green? The cane, purchased in about 1978 and the tests run in about 1986, wasstored in my basement in Alberta. The relative humidity here is low in thesummer and very low in the winter. We keep the house @ 24% relativehumiditywhen very cold outside to keep the double pane windows from frostingover. This tempering thing may well be a myth. Want a noodle or a fast rod? Ithink either can be developed regardless of how the bamboo is treatedpriorplaning. The catch word here is developed. I agree 100%. They only question is how much cane to put in the finishedproduct. It strikes me that IF tempering does increase the stiffness of thecane, you should be able to make a slimmer rod in all dimemsions thatwouldcast like a rod that was untempered and planed in a larger dimension. Or look at it another way. Lets say a certain t/t formula actuallyincreasedstiffness of the cane by 50%. Does it not hold that cane so treated can befashioned into most any action, noodle to very fast? If tempering does increase the stiffness of cane, how will the stiffness/less stiffness be incorportated into the tapers. It seems like we allaccumulate tapers but not the tempering method that goes with them.Why, ifthe tempering means so much? Statistics of "one" are really suspect, but here is one example that mayshedsome muddle on the subject. A friend had a 6' #4 2-pc rod that is anicelysmooth, soft to medium action - really a pleasure to cast. It wasreportedto have been built from a prototype blank left over from the Leonard Co.andlooked as tho the cane had never seen the inside of an oven. This is areally sweet casting fly rod. He duplicated the rod using cane that wasrichly flamed and then heat-treated. I am not sure of the T/T's of thetreatment, but it was at least as much as the Garrison prescription. Hewasdisappointed in the results because the rod was really quite stiff bycomparison, a much faster rod. The original had quite a heavy varnishjob,so am neither sure how much that affected it's action nor how much thecopymay have been oversized by assuming a thinner varnish than actuallyexists onthe original. However, the difference is really remarkable and the heattreatment cannot be arbitrarily ruled out as playing some part in theincreased stiffness. As mentioned, this is a statistic of one. Also, haveseen some blond rods that were real powerhouses. Although heat treatment cannot be ruled out, there are many othervariablesthat could effect the finished product - glues, varnish, cane quality,temering prior or after final planing etc. etc. I am not sure how anycomparision can be run unless we replicate the orginal makers techniques,materials, tempering etc. You also wrote:This was done for 5 splines which had beentempered by various methods. A 6th spline was left untempered as acontrol.The control spline did better than several of the others. Just a suggestion: should you do further tests, perhaps it would be afairertest if the individual splines were tested against themselves rather thanothers. Probably won't be doing any more testing. I don't want to know if the ovenI invested $ 700 CDN in isn't the way to go. The tempering colors I getnow,I like. You also wrote:Have used pipe ovens, direct flaming and convection/recirculationovens @ all kinds of temps/times. My oven is made with a mica heat strip, and tend to concentrate the heatin My experience exactly. This is the reason that I use the oven I do now. Gotreal tired of strips that were darker in one end than the other. from someof the comments I've read, I'm not the only one that had the problem withthat style of oven. The last set of strips burned was 3 years ago. New ovenworks great!!! If the list wants, I can discuss the new oven design. Don Guess my two cents worth is up. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 20:58:13 1996 Subject: Waterproofing finish Has anyone tried a waterproofing agent such as Thompsons Water Seal or equivalent. Would there be a problem putting Varnish on over thistreatment? Keep up the good work. Tom from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 21:27:12 1996 Subject: Re: Defense of URAC In a message dated 96-05-09 11:20:55 EDT, you write: It is really difficult to see URAC 185 get such a bad rap! It has a super track record over the years and if the instructions arefollowed I don't see how people can have such bad results. We don't knowhowsome of the other glues are going to hold up in say 10 years- or 20? URAC specs say use in temps of 70-125 deg. F (they mean it)URAC specs give shelf life....(it has one- it may look good to use but wehave all heard the horror stories). I have always used URAC and as yet had no problems. I recommend it astheonly glue to use on bamboo rods. . I don't think I am alone in thisthinking. Jon Parker@aol.com I'm going to have to agree with Jon on this one. URAC has always servedmewell. The shelf life is finite and this is the one drawback I've found. In myexperience URAC is very tolerant of slight mismanagement. I have used itbothroom temp cured and heat set. Never had a glue related failure.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 22:06:14 1996 Subject: Re: Down with URAC rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu wrote: In a message dated 96-05-09 11:20:55 EDT, you write: It is really difficult to see URAC 185 get such a bad rap! It has a super track record over the years and if the instructions arefollowed I don't see how people can have such bad results. We don'tknowhowsome of the other glues are going to hold up in say 10 years- or 20? URAC specs say use in temps of 70-125 deg. F (they mean it)URAC specs give shelf life....(it has one- it may look good to use but wehave all heard the horror stories). I have always used URAC and as yet had no problems. I recommend it astheonly glue to use on bamboo rods. . I don't think I am alone in thisthinking. Jon Parker@aol.com I'm going to have to agree with Jon on this one. URAC has always servedmewell. The shelf life is finite and this is the one drawback I've found. Inmyexperience URAC is very tolerant of slight mismanagement. I have usedit bothroom temp cured and heat set. Never had a glue related failure.A.J.ThramerMy apologies to those of you who have used and liked URAC. Ihave used it at two different times once back in the early or mid 1970's and another time about two years ago. The fist experience I built two rods in the middle of the summer. Both rods showed delaminations after about 5 minutes of casting. The last time, I had delaminations on trying to get some of the kinks out. A friend and student of mine did quite a number of test strips with URAC and other adhesives. In every case the URAC bond failed (glue to glue) and all of the other strips subjected to the same "abuse" held. Also in every case the URAC glue line was perceptably thicker than other adhesives. Now granted that I and my friend may have 1. done something counter to the prescribed methods or 2. used outdated material, or 3. glued during winter sub alpine conditions, but any adhesive that is as tempermental as URAC has proved to be in my experience has no place in my shop. Sorry guys I blanch when I hear the name. Ralph Moon from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 02:09:25 1996 Subject: A threat to our sport An animal rights group called PETA (people for the ethical treatment ofanimals) has started a campaign to ban all sportfishing in the U.S. Theyplan to disrupt people while fishing using tactics similar to those ofanti-hunters who chase away game and harass hunters in the field. Evencatchand release is not acceptable to this group. While this news itself isdisturbing there is more. Tracey Reiman, who heads PETA's anti-fishingcampaign has the impression that fly fishermen are sympathetic to theircause. Quoted in The Wall Street Journal as follows Fly fishermen "seemedmost sympathetic to our ideas. They were most concerned about the fish."Reiman offered that it's important for PETA to reach fly fishers, "becausethe vast majority of fly fishers have a lot of money."I do not understand this line of reasoning, but I understand the very realpossibility that we could be deprived of a legal recreational activity thatwe are licensed for.I urge all of you who fish (and I hope all of you do) to put a stop to this groupsyou may belong to, maybe talk about it with friends who are lawyers, andabove all let your state representatives know how you feel about it. If wedon't speak out we will lose by default. fishingactivities.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 06:30:25 1996 Subject: Re: Waterproofing finish Has anyone tried a waterproofing agent such as Thompsons Water Seal or equivalent. Would there be a problem putting Varnish on over thistreatment? Keep up the good work. Tom ========================================================================== Tom...........When I put Thompson's Water Seal on some arbor timbers over mypatio, the local paint store told me NOT to try to put any finish on top ofthe seal as it would not bond and would soon peel off. This may be verydependent on the type of topcoat so a test would be prudent. Karl Hube from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 07:55:48 1996 Subject: Orvis Rod I recently have come into possession of an Orvis cane rod, made from a kit, that is in need of some work. Having built rods since I was 14 (glass and graphite) I don't think I'm going to have much problem with the resoration. However, I would like to replace the seat with something a little better than the aluminum that ios currently on the rod. I've tried to talk to Orvis (Pat Noonan) about the problem. After about a month, I's not heard anything. Where can I find a seat that would have been on the original Orvis rod, or what is on the market today that would be the closest match? Also, where can I find one of the original winding checks? Finally, what was the main difference between the Madison and Orvis blanks? As you may be able to determine, I'm new to the world of cane. Appreciate any help, Fred Bohls from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 08:37:17 1996 Subject: Re: Tempering cane - Ovens Don: I am reading your discussion of ovens. Sorry I did not get to ask you moredetails about your oven at the Merrit meeting. Would you tell me how youbuilt your oven and why you did it the way you did? Thanks;Phil Have used pipe ovens, direct flaming and convection/recirculationovens @ all kinds of temps/times. My oven is made with a mica heat strip, and tend to concentrate the heatin My experience exactly. This is the reason that I use the oven I do now. Gotreal tired of strips that were darker in one end than the other. from someof the comments I've read, I'm not the only one that had the problem withthat style of oven. The last set of strips burned was 3 years ago. Newovenworks great!!! If the list wants, I can discuss the new oven design. Don Guess my two cents worth is up. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 09:26:50 1996 Subject: Re: glue and Tool Traditions Some great rods have been made with URAC, but I have not been able(with my factory-fresh batch) to make a reliable joint. I suspect that the limiting factor for me is the low temperature of my shop. I had hoped toobviate that problem by clamping at ambient temperature for 24 hours,then unclamping and moving to a warming cabinet. It did not work in my hands. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 09:26:55 1996 Subject: FW: RE:peta - A threat to our sport = An animal rights group called PETA (people for the ethical treatment of=animals) has started a campaign to ban all sportfishing in the U.S. They=plan to disrupt people while fishing using tactics similar to those of=anti-hunters who chase away game and harass hunters in the field. Even catch=and release is not acceptable to this group. ... Jim,This group has been around for several years and is the very very far left fringe of the environment movement. (not the conservation movement.) They believe, as do many people on both the far right and left, that humanbeings are somehow not part of the world. On the right this means that_anything_ we do to the world is okay, because it's ours to waste. On the other hand, the left wants us to not touch anything because we're interfering with the natural process. I quit TU when they moved inside the beltway and fired their magazine editor. While many local organizations still do much good work, the national organization is moving more toward the peta line of thinking. As for catch and release, don't get me started. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 09:27:06 1996 Subject: Tempering Cane - Ovens Richard, I've used my buddies pizza oven for the only heat treating I'vedone (that's one rod!) but I'd like to get my own oven up andrunning. I would greatly appreciate hearing about the desiggnof your oven so that I might be able to approximate it for myshop. Dave Makel from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 10:35:48 1996 Subject: Re: FW: RE:peta - A threat to our sport At 09:53 5/10/96 EDT, you wrote: = An animal rights group called PETA (people for the ethical treatment of=animals) has started a campaign to ban all sportfishing in the U.S. They=plan to disrupt people while fishing using tactics similar to those of=anti-hunters who chase away game and harass hunters in the field. Even catch=and release is not acceptable to this group. ... Jim,This group has been around for several years and is the very very far left fringe of the environment movement. (not the conservation movement.) They believe, as do many people on both the far right and left, that humanbeings are somehow not part of the world. On the right this means that_anything_ we do to the world is okay, because it's ours to waste. On the otherhand, the left wants us to not touch anything because we're interfering withthe natural process. I quit TU when they moved inside the beltway and fired their magazine editor. While many local organizations still do much good work, the national organization is moving more toward the peta line of thinking. As for catch and release, don't get me started. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu Terry,You are quite correct. PETA has been around since 1980 and claims to haveamembership of half a million. They are both well funded and wellorganizedand are very good at exploiting the press and media to further their cause.If what you say about TU is true I'm really upset, as I had just joined themduring their last membership drive based on what the information packetcontained.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 10:47:03 1996 Subject: Re: Down with URAC In a message dated 96-05-09 22:59:28 EDT, you write: the same "abuse" held. Also in every case the URAC glue line was perceptably thicker than other adhesives. Now granted that I and my The thickness of my URAC glue seams is about what I had withrescorcinol;i.e.: almost nonexistent. I think that is where the problem lies. If you havefound an adhesive that works well then there is no reason to change. I wasjust surprised at the number of people who have had problems with aproductthat has served me well for 100+ rods.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 10:53:50 1996 Subject: Rod Trade My rod trade idea seems to have died a quiet death. It seems to me that Imight have to take the initiative to lend some credibility to the idea.Afterall if the builder who had the idea won't participate it won't get too far sohere goes.I will trade a 7ft 2pc 3wt in one of my earlier tapers. The taper wasworked out from one of my favorite rods, an 8 1/2 ft Granger 5wt. It issemiparabolic as were the Granger rods, and a bit more delicate than thecurrentseries of Dx rods that I make. It has always been one of my favoritetapers.The rod is NEW, and finished as all my current production rods are. Fullwells grip, uplock NS SB Bellinger with a walnut filler, two tips, wrappedin md brown with black tipping, the ferrules and hardware blued. The onlydifference is I have been using CSE SD Leonard style ferrules instead ofSwiss pattern as I find them aesthetically pleasing on small two pc rods.Therod will be ready in about 8 weeks. I would like rod 7 to 8 1/4 ft & 3 to 5 wt. No Garrison tapers as Ipersonally don't care for them much and I think that modern buildersshouldcome up with their own modern tapers. My propensity to use para rods iswellknown but I also love to use progressive taper rods for dry work. Since Idon't give a damn about catching fish except how I want to anymore I usedries even when my sanity could be questioned. Please respond via my personal address: DIXALEE@AOL.com and we willsee howthis works out.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 10:53:50 1996 Subject: Rod Trade My rod trade idea seems to have died a quiet death. It seems to me that Imight have to take the initiative to lend some credibility to the idea.Afterall if the builder who had the idea won't participate it won't get too far sohere goes.I will trade a 7ft 2pc 3wt in one of my earlier tapers. The taper wasworked out from one of my favorite rods, an 8 1/2 ft Granger 5wt. It issemiparabolic as were the Granger rods, and a bit more delicate than thecurrentseries of Dx rods that I make. It has always been one of my favoritetapers.The rod is NEW, and finished as all my current production rods are. Fullwells grip, uplock NS SB Bellinger with a walnut filler, two tips, wrappedin md brown with black tipping, the ferrules and hardware blued. The onlydifference is I have been using CSE SD Leonard style ferrules instead ofSwiss pattern as I find them aesthetically pleasing on small two pc rods.Therod will be ready in about 8 weeks. I would like rod 7 to 8 1/4 ft & 3 to 5 wt. No Garrison tapers as Ipersonally don't care for them much and I think that modern buildersshouldcome up with their own modern tapers. My propensity to use para rods iswellknown but I also love to use progressive taper rods for dry work. Since Idon't give a damn about catching fish except how I want to anymore I usedries even when my sanity could be questioned. Please respond via my personal address: DIXALEE@AOL.com and we willsee howthis works out.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 11:08:31 1996 Subject: Re: FW: RE:peta - A threat to our sport PETA is a pain and a problem like all fringe groups. What I would like tohear about is TU. Wgat is the problem. I'm not being argumentative I needinformation.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 11:08:38 1996 Subject: Re: Orvis Rod Hi Fred,Bellinger makes the reel seats for Orvis currently. The Madison blankswerethe same taper as the Battenkill they just had an ocassional blemish. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 11:22:10 1996 Subject: Re: FW: RE:peta - A threat to our sport = Terry,=You are quite correct. PETA has been around since 1980 and claims tohave a=membership of half a million. They are both well funded and wellorganized=and are very good at exploiting the press and media to further theircause.=If what you say about TU is true I'm really upset, as I had just joined them=during their last membership drive based on what the information packet=contained.=Jim Jim,The year I joined TU they move the national headquarters inside theBeltway and fired the editor of their magazine. The new editor promised 'No more pictures of smiling fishermen holding trout..' (that's almost a direct quote.) The new thrust of the organization wasn't going to be wild trout fishing, but preserving habitat.That same issue they introduced about six new members of their staff. All had extensive environmental credentials, and oh, by the way the alsofished sometimes. I didn't renew my membership.I think that TU is a great organization on the local level, but if I want to donate to a conservation organization I'll give my money to one of the larger groups... I'll stick with FFF which can't really go to far away from fishing. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 11:49:34 1996 Subject: Re: glue and Tool Traditions rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu's message of 10-May-96 08:41 boundary=Boundary-2131057-0-0 --Boundary-2131057-0-0 I have found from experience that if you glue below 70 deg. you arecourting disaster. --Boundary-2131057-0-0 Subject: Re: glue and Tool Traditions CREN Some great rods have been made with URAC, but I have not been able(with my factory-fresh batch) to make a reliable joint. I suspect that the limiting factor for me is the low temperature of my shop. I had hoped toobviate that problem by clamping at ambient temperature for 24 hours,then unclamping and moving to a warming cabinet. It did not work in my hands. --Boundary-2131057-0-0-- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 11:55:18 1996 Subject: Orvis Rod - Reelseat Fred Bohls, I would like to replace the seat with something a little better than the aluminum that is currently on the rod. Where can I find a seat that would have been on the original Orvis rod, Contact: Gloria Jordan's Fly Rod ShopP. 0. Box 667Manchester Center, Vermont 05255(802) 362- 3186 - Evenings Gloria is Wes Jordan's widow and is again marketing the origianl reelseats that were used on the Orvis rods for many years. The reel seat wasdesigned years an patented the impregnation process used on Orvis rods. Wes Jordan Walnut Reel SeatsDownlocking design with "V threaded aluminum barrel,two-piece diamond knurled slip ring and nut,cork check ring, end plug, stainless steel hood,and polished walnut spacer Insert. Manufactured with quality, precision and dependability "In the Wes Jordan tradition" Finally, what was the main difference between the Madison and Orvis blanks? The Madison blanks were cosmetic seconds of the standard Battenkill series.Generally they were sold with a single tip instead of two like the Battenkills. Dick Spurr Centennial Classic SalesThe Classic Angler: http://www.gorp.com/bamboo.htmThe Kingfisher's Kingdom: http://www.kingfisher.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 12:01:07 1996 Subject: Re: A threat to our sport rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu's message of 10-May-96 02:55 boundary=Boundary-2131188-0-0 --Boundary-2131188-0-0 Some of us in Mich. have heard that many of the PETA people are nothingbut hirelings and as far as harassment goes, they drive cars also to the access sites... --Boundary-2131188-0-0 Subject: A threat to our sport CREN An animal rights group called PETA (people for the ethical treatment ofanimals) has started a campaign to ban all sportfishing in the U.S. Theyplan to disrupt people while fishing using tactics similar to those ofanti-hunters who chase away game and harass hunters in the field. Evencatchand release is not acceptable to this group. While this news itself isdisturbing there is more. Tracey Reiman, who heads PETA's anti-fishingcampaign has the impression that fly fishermen are sympathetic to theircause. Quoted in The Wall Street Journal as follows Fly fishermen "seemedmost sympathetic to our ideas. They were most concerned about the fish."Reiman offered that it's important for PETA to reach fly fishers, "becausethe vast majority of fly fishers have a lot of money."I do not understand this line of reasoning, but I understand the very realpossibility that we could be deprived of a legal recreational activity thatwe are licensed for.I urge all of you who fish (and I hope all of you do) to put a stop to this groupsyou may belong to, maybe talk about it with friends who are lawyers, andabove all let your state representatives know how you feel about it. If wedon't speak out we will lose by default. fishingactivities.Jim --Boundary-2131188-0-0-- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 12:53:21 1996 Subject: Re: FW: RE:peta - A threat to our sport ==PETA is a pain and a problem like all fringe groups. What I would like to=hear about is TU. Wgat is the problem. I'm not being argumentative I need=information.=A.J.Thramer Well, A.J., about 4 or five years ago I joined TU because I'd heard lot's of good things about them. Mainly the local chapters were very active in rehabilitating home waters. Something we all should be active in, I guess. Over the year I was a member the second line on the outside of their magazine, _Trout_ kept changing. I can't remember exactly all thechanges but it went from something like, _Trout the magazine for clod water fishermen_ to something like _TROUT the magazine of (somethingsomething) protection_. (or something like that.) They fired the old editor and the new editor promised no more pictures of fishermen holding trout, no more how to articles and no more fishing stories. from now on they were going to concentrate on environmental issues, not fishing, that was the gist of it.They seemed to be much more interested in what happened inside thebeltway then what the local TU was up to. I could feel the approach of loud cries They hired several new staff, most of whom had been working in New YorkCity or Washington or some other major metropolitan center as members of one environmental group or another. I remember, one person was a biologistwho after graduating had joined some environmental board. I got the feeling that this person had never been on a streams in his/her life. And by the way, most of them had fished at least once. I don't know what TU is up to now. I know it took a pounding right after those changes and a lot of people were questioning how long it would be before they started suggesting that maybe fishing was an un-naturalstress on the fish... I believe that the local chapters of TU still do much needed and good work. However, it seems someone saw an opportunity to get their hands on a mailing list and took it..... Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 13:27:35 1996 Subject: wanted bamboo flyrod Wanted bamboo flyrod, 7'-7 1/2', 3 wt., 2 pc., 2 tips, and moderate action.Please e-mail a response.Clark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. Street.Zion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext. 270c-davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 13:29:43 1996 Subject: Re: FW: RE:peta - A threat to our sport At the risk of sounding cranky. I don't see how discussing PETA or TU is important to rodmaking. This discussion sounds more suitable the large volume of messages). Personally, I think we are all awareof PETA's anti-fishing stance and the shortcomings of some fishing organizations, but that's not going to help us find a better way to glue and bind our rods. Go ahead and flame me, I'm going fishing this afternoon. ;-) -Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 13:50:40 1996 Subject: Re: FW: RE:peta - A threat to our sport Terry K. wrote: {{Over the year I was a member the second line on the outside of theirmagazine, _Trout_ kept changing. I can't remember exactly all thechangesbut it went from something like, _Trout the magazine for clod water fishermen_ to something like _TROUT the magazine of (somethingsomething)protection_. (or something like that.) They fired the old editor and the new editor promised no more pictures offishermen holding trout, no more how to articles and no more fishingstories. from now on they were going to concentrate on environmentalissues, not fishing, that was the gist of it.They seemed to be much more interested in what happened inside thebeltwaythen what the local TU was up to. I could feel the approach of loud cries They hired several new staff, most of whom had been working in New YorkCityor Washington or some other major metropolitan center as members of oneenvironmental group or another. I remember, one person was a biologistwhoafter graduating had joined some environmental board. I got the feelingthat this person had never been on a streams in his/her life. And by the way, most of them had fished at least once. I don't know what TU is up to now. I know it took a pounding right afterthose changes and a lot of people were questioning how long it would bebefore they started suggesting that maybe fishing was an un-naturalstresson the fish...}}Terry Kirkpatrick **** 1) I'm not at all concerned that TU is staffed by professionals at the national level. It should be. Do theyfish? Don't know, don't care. Do care that they have somepower in political circles where it matters. Local chaptersnever proved very effective in dealing with issues like damconstruction or destruction. There is room for both kinds of activity and for both kinds of staffing. 2) Bravo for no more smiling fishers holding trout up to the camera. Tells me these guys understand that such pictures have nothing to do with fishing. Pure commerce. Leave the lofted fish to Orvis catalogs and commercial publications that can't seem to get beyond the trite and the redundant in any case. And who needs another how-to article? This is fishing guys. It ain't quantum physics. 3) Fish ~are~ stressed by being caught. That's one of the reasons we play them quickly, use barbless hooks and release with minimal handling. (Most fish find being killedexceedingly stressful.) Is the stress unnatural? There's a lot of dirty linen in that basket, and I'm quite sure it's not worth opening. 4) PETA and similar organizations do pose a threat to fly fishing. If they ever learn how to manage their rhetoric to capture the support of the general public, we will need TU, the FFF, and every other pro-fishing agency we can muster to keep them at bay. A few good Washington lawyers might start looking pretty good about then. 5) Is this the rodmakers@? Thought I was back on FF@richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 14:58:24 1996 Subject: Re: FW: RE:peta - A threat to our sport At 13:15 5/10/96 -0500, you wrote: At the risk of sounding cranky. I don't see how discussing PETA or TU is important to rodmaking. This discussion sounds more suitable the large volume of messages). Personally, I think we are all awareof PETA's anti-fishing stance and the shortcomings of some fishing organizations, but that's not going to help us find a better way to glue and bind our rods. Go ahead and flame me, I'm going fishing this afternoon. ;-) -Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil Jerry,My original posting was meant to alert people who have a vested interestinfishing (which in all likelyhood includes rodmakers), and not start alengthy debate on the list. I agree that there are better forums to discussthe issue, but not everybody belongs to the same organizations. It is myhope that list members will network to these other organizations tobettercombat anti-fishing sentiments. If people are unable to fish there wouldbevery little use in building fishing rods, unless you want to hang them onthe wall and call it art.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 14:59:12 1996 Subject: RE: DEFENSE OF URAC -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- I must agree. Although UF's have a few small problem for the rodmaker,overall they are an intelligent choice for most of us. And,further, asJon said, we have a good, solid track record in favor of UF's. One badbatch doth not a reputation make. Zimny from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 18:06:51 1996 Subject: Re: FW: RE:peta - A threat to our sport Richard Frank wrote: 2) Bravo for no more smiling fishers holding trout up to the camera. Tells me these guys understand that such pictures have nothing to do with fishing. Pure commerce. Leave the lofted fish to Orvis catalogs and commercial publications that can't seem to get beyond the trite and the redundant in any case. And who needs another how-to article? This is fishing guys. It ain't quantum physics. When no more smiling fishers is holding trout up to the camera the water is dead. I hope that your waters as well as mine will be in such a condition that it will allow us to be proud of our catch and will let us enjoy a well planned fish dinner with fish of our own catch without that nagging feeling of being a crook. Our goal must be to save the waters rather than .../Mikael from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 18:12:24 1996 Subject: Re: DEFENSE OF URAC rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu wrote: -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- I must agree. Although UF's have a few small problem for the rodmaker,overall they are an intelligent choice for most of us. And,further, asJon said, we have a good, solid track record in favor of UF's. One badbatch doth not a reputation make.Zimny To Zimny and A.J. My apologies if I came on too strong against URAC. My point was perhaps not as well expressed as it should have been. I merely pointed out that I have never had a success with URAC, and I refuse to take another chance. I know a lot of rodmakers who have used nothing else and are pleased with it. Great! I'll stick (no pun intended) with what works the glue line may be the problem--and that is my fault not that of the material. Still that is just a suspicion.. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 21:57:07 1996 Subject: Archives Well gang.. I kind of expect an execution squad at my front door tomorrow... but Try http://HOME1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm see if this will work as a new archiveOf course I expect FEEDBACK. JWF from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 22:13:20 1996 Subject: Bakelite A few weeks ago, eager to go fishing with a particular rod which I had stripped of excessive intermediates and rewound, I grabbed a can of varnish, thinned by 20% and brushed on a coat. I knew it wasn't the Cosmo that I'd come to trust, but I had it handy, so I used it, the rod is great to cast but a noname; so I wasn't worried.Anyway, the varnish misbehaved. Running, jumping, etc. Then I read the can - greater than 50% pheno-formaldehyde resins. Yuk! Of course, I replenished the Cosmo supply and started stripping this rod, but stripping is so much harder and messier with Bakelite. You can't use methyl hydrate, it doesn't cut it. So you scrape and the glassy crystals start flying off.Has anyone else tried a Bakelite varnish and been equally disappointed? I know its hard to avoid phenolics, but at least some brands keep the natural resins up. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 10 23:34:35 1996 Subject: Urac To all, Am in the process of attempting to destroy a cane rod by fishing it todeath. Have about 4000 hours on it so far. Used Uarc. Still going strong. Regards, Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 11 08:51:32 1996 Subject: George Barnes' book I have been trying with no success for some time now to find a copy ofGeorgeBarnes' book on rodmaking. I'm not a book collector and am not concernedabout condition as long as it is readable. Does anyone know where I mightfind a copy?Thanks - - Tom Smithwick (TSmithwick@aol.com) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 11 09:12:26 1996 Subject: Re: George Barnes' book Hello Tom: I have a suggestion that might help. Should you not locate a cy as a resultof your posting, you might call The Anglers Art (800-848-1020). I wantedacy of Herter's book and they kept an eye out for it. It took a few months,but they located one for me. They were not inexpensive, but wereeffective. Good Luck,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 11 15:21:39 1996 Subject: Re: Archives Jerry Looks good to me - I had no problem accessing the archives.a job well done Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 11 16:06:18 1996 Subject: PARA-17 SOme time ago I sent out a requestb for any information (building, casting, anecdotes form others, etc.) on Paul YOung PARA-17 taper cane rods. I didn't get any response and so I wonder whether the mesagen didn't get through or nobody has anything to say. So, I would try again. Ron Barch,a cane rodmaker (who is not on e-mail) in HAstings Michigan asked to me send this reuqest. Cgas. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 11 17:22:06 1996 Subject: Re: PARA-17 Dear Charles et al,The following is a quotation from Ernest Schweibert, Trout -- TackleII,pp156-58: "Many partisans of the Young split-cane rods believe that the Parabolic17 is the finest big-water trout rod ever built, and like the smallerParabolic 15, it was made in two radically different versions. Thestandardmodel is eight and a half feet and five and a half ounces, taking aneight-weight line, and I have another experimental parabolic of this typethat once belonged to Paul Young himself. It has three separate tipsections. The dry-fly tip has calibrations taking a five sixty-fourths ofaninch top, the delicate wet-fly tip has a four and a half sixty-fourths top,and the powerful distance tip takes a six sixty- fourths top. This rod hasanextra-slow butt taper, with little difference between the calibrations atthestripping guide and the grip. Its compound tapers are quite radical,displaying rather complex rhythms under stress. Its timing combines anability to handle long casts easily, as well as sufficient tip delicacy toprotect a 5X tippet. The distance tip will load and deliver a WF 9Sforwardtaper more than a hundred feet."I hope this helps. I don't recall seeing an earlier query re: Para-17;perhaps the real experts here did not see it either. --Roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 11 18:12:09 1996 Subject: Re: George Barnes' book Tom,I have good luck with Ken Callahan Callahan & Company, BooksellersBox 505 Peterborough, NHUSA 03458 (603) 924-3726fax (603) 924-9645 good luck, Reedrcurry@jlc.net I have been trying with no success for some time now to find a copy ofGeorgeBarnes' book on rodmaking. I'm not a book collector and am not concernedabout condition as long as it is readable. Does anyone know where I mightfind a copy?Thanks - - Tom Smithwick (TSmithwick@aol.com) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 11 19:37:49 1996 Subject: Re: Archives Jerry wrote:I kind of expect an execution squad at my front door tomorrow... butTry http://HOME1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htmsee if this will work as a new archiveOf course I expect FEEDBACK. Great job.... everything worked just fine. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 11 19:49:28 1996 Subject: Re: FW: RE:peta - A threat to our sport thanks for the info that is what I needed to know. I felt that achange washappening but did not realize the direction it had taken. This type ofdetatched heirarchy is what I hate to see. The focus should not be changed from trout as gamefish to trout as icon. It is a short leap to the positionof the PETA fringe. We DO disturb the natural habitat and we need to makepeace with our impact and try to minimize it or turn it into a positiveaction. aneconomic value. The experience in Africa and big game has proven thepointthat in a bizarre way the path to a healthy population is to have a wellregulated fishing and hunting. A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 11 23:08:55 1996 Subject: Re: George Barnes' book At 10:00 AM 5/11/96 -0400, you wrote:Hello Tom: Powells Book Store in Portland Oregon is one of the largest on the WestCoast and they carry a lot of fishing stuff (new and used). They claim thatthey will soon have their entire inventory on line....you can remind me in acouple of weeks and I will check and see if they are up or you can try asearch with your browser...belive they have a page up and running now.Mike in PDX from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 11 23:09:11 1996 Subject: Re: Urac At 10:21 PM 5/10/96 -0600, you wrote:To all, Am in the process of attempting to destroy a cane rod by fishing it todeath. Have about 4000 hours on it so far. Used Uarc. Still going strong. Regards, Don Don, sounds like you have paid your dues and need a rest.....be glad toprovide my address and pay shipping if you want to let someone else workatit for awhile.Mike in PDX from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 12 06:29:20 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Tournament Casting Rods? In a message dated 96-05-07 13:21:26 EDT, you write: Now, my next question....I have read references to tournament casting rods. I am assuming theseare for distance casting. Does anyone have a taper formula for such arod? I would like to see the stress graph generated and possibly figureout why such a taper can cast farther than ordinary rods. Hello Darryl:I have two or three casting rod tapers that were presented as"tournament"tapers, tho not necessarily distance rods. It seems a gray area as (1.)there is not so much written about bamboo casting rod use/tapers as isthecase with fly rods; (2.) some of the rods were listed as used for bothaccuracy and distance by some of the casting games guys according towhat Ihave read. I have a love affair with 40's and 50's narrow spool casting reels, soft,light casting lines (4 - 9 lbs) and bamboo casting rods. Have acquired acouple of interesting rods, several tapers of same and have built 4 - 5bamboo casting rods from such tapers. Love all of them. Also dreamed upastess curve ala la Garrison and built a 6' - 2" hollow rod with butt swellaimed at the1/2 to 5/8 oz lure range. Missed that and have instead a 3/8-1/2 oz rod. Used line weights/lengths in lieu of lure weights in theformulas and have a soft tip, very accurate 50 - 60' rod that can extend onout to 75' easily with practice plugs and less wind resistant plugs on thewater. Built a pent/hollow from same taper, except extended it on out to6'- 6" at the big end. Not sure of the final evaluation, but it looks like itmight be the first true 1/4 - oz rod I've yet cast. Well, seem to be getting a bit off the subject. If you or anyone else wantsany of the tapers, or small talk on the subject, let me know. However, Irepeat that none are pure distance tapers as far as I know. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 12 06:29:28 1996 Subject: Re: Orvis Rod In a message dated 96-05-10 08:47:08 EDT, you write: Also, where can I find one of the original winding checks? Hello Fred: There was a builder at the BC meet in '94 who had such a winding check onarod he had built. When he was asked where he got it, he answered, "Orvis".Never checked it out, though. If you find a source, please let us know. Thanks and Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 12 08:33:04 1996 Subject: Re: George Barnes' book Mike / Tom Try http://www.powells.com They are on-line with queries - I did quick search and did not findthe book.I am still trying to find a good copy myself. Last copy I found hadpagination problems (like several key chapters missing and otherreplicated). Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 12 09:15:22 1996 Subject: Barnes' book, etc. Thanks to those who wrote with suggestions. I was able to find a copy ofthebook. Also would like to add my bit to the Great Glue Debate. I've had goodresultswith Urac, but have heard of shelf life problems also. If I have doubtsaboutthe age, I mix a small batch and edge glue some scrap cane strips. Whendry,try to knock them apart and see what you've got. I've never had a problem.I would be very careful about putting Titebond 2 through a heat treatcycle.I've seen good looking test pieces, but have also heard of failures. Havealso heard that the manufacturer does not reccommend it at thesetemperatures. The ONLY glue I trust in the oven is resorcinol. Yes, it driesslow. Yes, it's ugly. But, with all the work that goes into a rod, why risk afailed splice?Finally, I regret that I deleted a message last week before I could reply tothe gentleman with the Leonard rod. He suggested because it was veryblondeit may not have been heat treated. I can't speak for the company's wholehistory, but at one time they used a "slow cook" method involving 200degrees It's possible that the rod could have received this type of treatment. It'sbeen my experience that if you want to start a howling catfight in a groupofgenteel rodbuilders, just start talking about the relative merits of oneheattreatment over another. I'm going to shut up and go fishing. -- TomSmithwick from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 12 15:19:52 1996 Subject: Re: Urac Hi there.I'm sure it is possible to use this glue to make a good rod, because if it was not then it would'nt be in all the books, and I would not have bought it. Rather than heat my basement to 70F in the winter, I will use a different glue which has been used to build many good rods.After MANY failed attempts, I gave up on it, and thought I would share my experience with others. Looks to me like I am not the only one with the same problems. I convinced this glue must be used above 65F.just my 0.02.Mauro On Fri, 10 May 1996, Don Andersen wrote: To all, Am in the process of attempting to destroy a cane rod by fishing it todeath. Have about 4000 hours on it so far. Used Uarc. Still going strong. Regards, Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 12 16:07:36 1996 Subject: PETA Letter It has come up that the PETA letter did not belong in the rodmakers groupand would have been more appropriate in the FF newsgroup. Strictlyspeakingthat is true but in defense of the posting I would like to add some of mypersonal feelings on the matter.To begin with I don't read the FF postings all that often as it deals withalot of beginner/novice material. I also find the emphasis on cutting thecost of FF to the absolute bone silly. As a bamboozler we are largelyignoredexcept as it pertains to the cost of used tackle. The above combined withsuch obnoxious postings as the recent 'Bajarat' series leads to only myoccassional interaction with that group. All that I find objectionable with the FF group is absent in the rodmakersgroup. Even a novice , once he embraces what I like to think of as thebamboo ideal, has a bit of grace that comes from the change from 'howmany'to 'how'. This is not to say that the FF group is completely useless andobjectionable, far from it , but I like to characterize it as the differencebetween your fishing buddies and friends who fish.To try to sum up the above drivel I would like to say that I appreciate theposting as I now consider the rodbuilders group as a type of communitywithlarger interests than just the construction and use of bamboo. Acommunitythat I have alot more in common with than the larger population of flyanglers in general.Thanks for listeningA.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 12 22:34:36 1996 Subject: Re: Heat-treating Tom Smithwick wrote:Finally, I regret that I deleted a message last week before I could replytothe gentleman with the Leonard rod. He suggested because it was veryblondeit may not have been heat treated. I can't speak for the company's wholehistory, but at one time they used a "slow cook" method involving 200degrees It's possible that the rod could have received this type of treatment. It'sbeen my experience that if you want to start a howling catfight in agroup ofgenteel rodbuilders, just start talking about the relative merits of oneheattreatment over another. Tom,Tho' I'm not sure I qualify as a gentleman, yet I believe I'm the one who suggested that my 10' Leonard is not heat treated. Of course, I cannot prove that this rod, made in Dec.1907 of Calcutta cane, was never heat- treated. However, I reasoned thusly: since Edwards experiments inflame tempering Tonkin cane didn't reach their conclusion until approximately1916 (extrapolated from Keane's book) and since there is no mention in Frazer's book (1914) of heat-treating, I concluded that heat-treating was not usedon Calcutta cane. When you examine the statement above you see that I'm using the absence of evidence as evidence. The old "invisible cat" logic. I don't like it but I have no other mechanism in this case.Has anyone any notion of the origins of heat-treating cane? Best regards,Reed Curry P.S. - Will we see you at Grayling? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 12 22:51:26 1996 Subject: Re: PETA Letter A. J.,Amen to your PETA posting. I hope to meet you at the TTBBBQ if you'regoing.Hank Woolman. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 12 23:02:24 1996 Subject: Re: Urac Mauro,The only failures I've had with Urac have been:1. Made it too thin and 2:glued it below 70 o. fahr. i. e. twice out of 70+rods I'm still using itwith NH4CL or walnut filler depending on what I'm trying to achieve.Inertiabeing parmount in the rod shop unless I get kicked in the teeth fromsomething ufoseseen I'll stick with it.Hank Woolman. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 12 23:28:38 1996 Subject: Re: Urac To All, About temp. - you may be on to something there. In Alberta where I live,thewinter temps. can get COLD. The whole house is insulated and kept @ orabove70 degrees F including basement. After rod is glued it's hung in a dryingrack @ 85 degrees F for 24 hours. Regards, Don Hi there.I'm sure it is possible to use this glue to make a good rod, because if it was not then it would'nt be in all the books, and I would not have bought it. Rather than heat my basement to 70F in the winter, I will use a different glue which has been used to build many good rods.After MANY failed attempts, I gave up on it, and thought I would share my experience with others. Looks to me like I am not the only one with the same problems. I convinced this glue must be used above 65F.just my 0.02.Mauro On Fri, 10 May 1996, Don Andersen wrote: To all, Am in the process of attempting to destroy a cane rod by fishing it todeath. Have about 4000 hours on it so far. Used Uarc. Still going strong. Regards, Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 13 01:48:04 1996 Subject: Re: Urac Hank, I have made 4 rods now and I am still trying to get a glue joint withUrac that I am happy with. My problem has been gaps in the glue line (Thelastrod came out pretty good and I think that my problems were mostly withmybinding tension and of course inaccuracies in my planing). I am curiousaboutyour comment of being too thin as I tried to thin the glue out on my lastrod.Did you thin it with water? What would you consider too thin? I heard attheCorbett lake group that you could thin it with water to (I believe) 20%.Thanks Martin Jensen from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 13 08:18:53 1996 Subject: Re: Heat-treating "Tom,Tho' I'm not sure I qualify as a gentleman, yet I believe I'm the one who suggested that my 10' Leonard is not heat treated. Of course, I cannot prove that this rod, made in Dec.1907 of Calcutta cane, was never heat- treated." Reed, I have yet to meet a rodbuilder who is not also a gentleman. Ibelieve the learning process is so frustrating that it weeds out the jerks.As to your 1907 Leonard, sorry, but I am clueless. My information is muchlater vintage. Actually, I believe I was replying to someone who had amorerecent rod, built from a blank after the bankruptcy. As I said, I deleted themessage and could have been confused. ( not the first time ).I doubt I will be able to make Grayling, but I have heard rumors of anattempt to organize an Eastern gathering. I hope they are successful.Regards - Tom Smithwick from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 13 09:13:40 1996 Subject: Re: Heat-treating Reed concludes with... Has anyone any notion of the origins of heat-treating cane? Could it have been Mrs. Oleary's cow???? :-))))) Okay, okay...I'll shut up and go back to my coffee! :-) Mike - flaming - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 13 09:19:22 1996 Subject: PETA/TU - 6ft. taper. I agree discussions of PETA and TU probably don't belong in this List. My comments about TU were based on my own experience at a point in time,and maynot represent the group today. I do believe they were trying to expand their support base by including non fishers. Now to more important matters: someone ask for the taper on the little6ft. rod that I assembled out of bits and pieces. Here it is, with some reservations. My calipers only go to .010 so I had to interpolate. I used four measurement (one first cut, then a second averaging all three sides.) so they should be fairly close They'll definitely be within 1/64, which I've been told is what the old guys used before we got modern. in. D d.1.5 .083 .0965 .097 .11210 .116 .13415 .128 .14820 .143 .165Note: 25 .159 .18335in is 30 .178 .206estimate 35 .195 .227ferrule is 40 .219 .2539/64 45 .230 .26650 .240 .27755 .248 .28660 .261 .301 I didn't get the tip taper because it's under the tiptop -- same with the taper in the handle. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 13 09:49:24 1996 Subject: Shooting line. A few days ago I mentioned the ability of my 6ft. bamboo to shoot line. Sense then I've done a little experimenting and here are the primary results. (the no-see'ums came out in force and I had to retreat to the house. Life in Flu) I used the same Courtland DT5F in all tests. None of the rods I used worked worth a damn at 10ft. The best shooting rod at 20 feet was an Eagle Claw 6 1/2 foot glass rod.Second best was the little 6ft. bamboo. They both could put out almost 10 feet of line starting at the 20 ft. mark. As expected, the graphites didn't come close. Some of them wouldn't loadat 20 ft.Most had to have 35 to 40 feet of line to begin to load. A 6 1/2 ft graphite rod wouldn't load until over 30 ft of line was out. A seven foot glass rod for 4/5wt also performed poorly, although I like to fish it. Out at about 50 -55 feet the Bamboo and glass rods held their own withthe graphite. It was only beyond the 55 foot range that the older mediastarted to fall off. one thing I noticed was the ability of the line to pass through the stripper guide. Many casts ended when the line refused to go through the guide. I'll admit that these tests weren't complete and MY casting style mayhave had something to do with the outcome. I'd like to hear from others who might duplicate these tests. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 13 10:11:02 1996 Subject: Re: Shooting line. I used the same Courtland DT5F in all tests. I'd like to hear the results of a similar test done with WF5F or WF6F line. Weren't WF lines created to overcome just that problemof loading the (graphite) rod with little line out? I'm not sure it's a fair comparison to try to throw a DT with graphite. Russell Gelinasgelinas@ekman.sr.unh.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 13 10:27:22 1996 Subject: Sanding of Blanks, World's Strongest Ferrule-Another Viewpoint I have receivd several requests for the article I mentioned in an earlier email. To be fair, I should point out that the article was written as a rebuttal to a couple of articles which appeared in the RodCrafter's Journal. Basically, these articles suggested that an 8mil glue thickness was required for ultimate epoxy strenghth, and that the sanding or scuffing of blanks was completely unneccessary. The authors of the RodCrafter articles did point out that vigourous cleaning of the surfaces to be bonded was important. As a result of the article, I did some testing of my own. I did agree that sanding of graphite blanks should not be done as the danger to damaging the fibres was great, however, I felt that some removal of the shine of the finish of the blank was required by the builder to ensure a good bond. I then conducted my own test, and used a urethane bond on a blank, part of which the shine had been left, the other part I used a material similar to Scotch- Brite to scuff the surface. I used scotch-brite because it would not unless extremely vigourous rubbing is used, damage the fibres of the blank. What I discovered was that the area where the shine had not been removed, the cured urethane bond was so easily removed from the blank, simply by peeling it away, like a piece of celophane tape. The other area, the bond could not be removed completely. I wrote RodCrafters with my findings, they did not publish my article, however they did make editorial comment on it that I made no mention of whether or not I cleaned the blank in question. I did in fact clean the blank, however I did not report this in my article as it at the time seemed to irrelevant, in that I was not attempting to prove anything regarding the cleanliness of the blank, but rather prove or disprove the need for removing the shine on the blank. I was also quoted as saying that I felt that if the practice of not removing the shine became popular that there would be an epidemic of loose real seats. I in fact did not use the words epidemic of loose real seats, I merely cautioned that it was possible for a greater # of loose real seats, and that being custom rod builders, we should be attempting to build the best possible products possible. Editorial comment was also made an another article submitted by a fellow RodCrafter by the name of Ralph O'Quinn. Mr. O'Quinn submitted an article also disputing the original articles, however this was not published either, as the editor indicated that it was to technical for the Journal and its readers. I contacted Mr. O'Quinn and had conversation with him, and he kindly sent me his article. He has also given me permission to reproduce the article and email it to whomever is interested. I have certainly learned alot from Mr. O'Quinn's article and regret the decision by RodCrafter Journal not to publish it. Although it is somewhat technical, it is also educational. As rod builders, I believe it is important to understand why we do things, so that we may be more credible when it comes to selling and marketing our products. Mr. O'Quinn worked for 30 years in the space industry, and presently markets his own epoxies and rod finishes specially developped for rod building. I think his qualifications speak well for him. I will now copy his article, without editing, and leave all to you to decide how you will build your rods. World's Strongest Ferrule--Another Viewpoint The July/August 1995 issue of the juournal contained an article that updated the original article written in January/February 1991. The authours claim to have interviewed a friend who is a SpaceCrafter who actually did the materials engineering for the article. That is why this article hit home wiht me. I spent 30 years in the aerospace industry; most of it as a research engineer in what was known as materials and processes or M & P. I was part of the Structural Adhesives group, so was tied up in bonding problems on a full time basis for many years. At one time or another I have visited most of the bond shops of the aerospace industry, coordinating design or manufacturing problems, and probably have been in the shop where the authors friend works wherever that may be. (Fairchild in Hagerstown md?) I have written many process specifications for structural adhesives, specification that contrl the many quirks and parameters of the bond including the bond thickness. For the most part, structural adhesives are supplied in film form, not liquid. They are cured under heat and considerable pressure. A general average of the cured bond thickness for these adhesives would be pretty close to 8 mils. Perhaps this is where the authors good friend the SpaceCrafter found his recommendation of a half of a 1/64 for liquid adhesives. Nowhere is ther any sound statistical data proving that 8 mils is an optimum bond thickness for liquid adgesives under any and all conditions. The authors claim that the spacecrafters produce bonds with 25,000 pounds of strength is utterly meaningless. It tells us nothing about the bond strength. We need to know the pounds per square inch or PSI original article and look at the picture of the fractured tube, we see a tube about 1 inch in deameter and about 2 inches of ferrule(bond). This translates into about 8 square inches hoding a pull of 12 tons- - or 24,000 pounds. 24,000 divided by 8 sq. inches equals about 3,000 PSI, which is a rather fair bond but certainly nothing spectacular. 3,000PSI can be achieved with many commercially available adhesives if they are used properly, however 3000psi does show very good adherent preparation. But where is the picture of the same tube bonded into the same ferrule with a 2 or 3 mil bond that has failed at a much lower value, proving that the 8 mil bond is superior? In the aerospace industry, structural (vs. non-structural) adhesives are mostly designed to bond metals; usually aluminum. The preparation of metals before bonding is a very precise process. It consists of conversion coating the metal, usually an anodiazation process followed by a corrosion inhibitin primer (cip) which is baked on, then the the actual bond process under heat and pressure. Metal is never, never, never, grooved or roughened. In bonding metals, a mirror smooth surface is the ultimate, and some primers used for bonding have a very shiny surface. Therefore when the need arose to structurally bond fiberglass and grahite composites in an aircraft modification, a major research program was initiated to develop a surface preparation for this type of structure. It was necessary to develop a structure that is fail safe under heavy repetitive loaking that translates into fatigue on the bond line. What finally evolved from this program is something so simple that we can all use it. Household abrasive cleaners were found statistically to be the best surface preparations for all composites. The brand Old Dutch Cleanser specifically was found to be the very best, while Ajax was found to have too severe an abrasive and weakened the bonds quite considerably. The next best was found to be a 3M (Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing) product called Scotchbrite. Scotchbrite products are available in househod kits sold in the grocery store. Either the grey or the green is satisfactory for composite preparation. The green being the finest, and I personally like it better for my rods. Be careful and get the right green, as there are 2 greens. Get the light pastel green. The dark forest green is too abrasive, and will sand down to the fibre. tools used to evaluate bond performance is known as lap shear. A single lap shear specimen is 1" wide with a 1/2" overlap, so ther is 1/2 sq. in. if bond area to evaluate. The bond is broken on a Tinius Olson test machine and the bond evaluated for 1. Ultimate Strength,2. Mode of Failure - - adhesive or cohesive or a combination of both. The mode of failure can be far more important to the research engineer than the ultimate strength. The mode of failure is what tells us if we have a surface preparation or not. An adhesive failure is when the bond fails at its interface with the adherent, and it will usually leave a slick shiny surface. A cohesion failure is when the bond fails completely within itself and remains 100% attached to both surfaces. This of course, is the ultimate in surface preparation for metals. Composite structure, bi it aerospace or fishing rods is cured under heat and pressure. Fishing rods are usually surface sanded for esthetic purposes. Be they sanded or unsanded there is about one to two thouandths of and inch ( 1 or 2 mils) of resin on the surface covering the structure, be it glass or graphite fibers. This resin surface thickness varies with the resin content that ideally is about 28%, but realistically runs 32% or more in the cheaper rods. This resinous surface absolutely must not be punctured when bonding the area in question. When this surface is punctured-by sanding, filing etc., you now bond directly to the glass or graphite structure with disastrous results. You no longer have the resin surface to spread out the bond load evenly like a bond is supposed to do, instead you now affect the structure as if you had driven a rivet. The bond loads directly to the underlying fibers and rips them away, with drastically reduced strenght, which is why handle sections fall apart prematurely; the builder gouged grooves into the section theinking the corks would bond better. This agrees with the author's spacecrafter recommendation to "knock off the shine" It is how you knock off the shine where our disparity lies. If you must use sandpaper rather than Scotchbrite use only 'wet-dry' type with a silicone carbide, or at least an aluminum oxide grit. Never us a grit heavier then #400, and always sand wet to prevent gouging and deep scratches. I cannot agree with the author and his reccomendation to "leave the surface unsanded" on blanks. There is entirely too much contamination potential to risk this. To leave the blank surface untouched prior to bonking is fine for the rod blank manufacturer, where the finished blank is kept in his nice clean shop prior to assembly into a finished rod. It is not suitable for the custom builder who gets this smae blank some 6 mos. maybe a couple of years later after being handled by numerous contaminating hands, airborne oils, etc. Contaminants that cannot be removed by merely wiping with alcohol. On Metallic surfaces, (Aluminum is the metal on most of our rods) you are going to have corrosion if you stop with a mere abrasive cleaning. The aluminum should be treated with an alodine before bonding. Any paint store will sell you a kit for applying Alodine to aluminum. The kit consists of a bottle of mild acid -phosphoric and a bottle of liquid alodine. Wear rubber gloves when handling the materials. Daub the to be bonded surface with the acid, let it work for a few minutes, rinse it off and apply the alodine with a brush or dauber, and rise again after a few minutes. Now you have a good bondable surface that will not corrode away in a few years. When you look at a slice of cured epoxy resin through a powerful microscope - such as an electon microscope what you see, lliks like a piece of Swiss cheese. Epoxies are very porous, the pores are not large enough to admit water, but water vapour passes very freely. This is wy moisture is the biggest enemy of epoxy bonds. Moisture migrates into the bond interface and destroys the surface that was bonded until the bond prematurely fails. In aluminum, moisture causes a weak oxide to form on the surface where the bond clings, and undercuts the bond. The next thing you know, your bond is falling apart. Aluminum must be treated before bonding, or painting. In Spacecraft or Airospace bonding, the most important design parameter is "longetivity of the bond." What good is a 5000 psi bond if it falls apart in a couple of years. The load that the bond was put there to sustain does not go away. So if the bond fails, something catastrophic may happen. This cannot be tolerated in aircraft or missiles. So much more important the the strongest possible bond is bond integrity. Bond integrity should be paramount in our rods as well. Bond strenght is secondary or even less. In building a fishing rod, nowhere on that rod is there any requirement The world of fishing rods is notheing like the world of the spacecrafter. The two have nothing in common with each other, and neither one could live with the other's requirements. It would be impossible to build a fishing rod like the spacecrafter builds his antenna. Start with an engineering drawing that willdetail every aspect of the job. There will be one drawing for the ferrule, another drawing for the antenna, and still another drawing for the assembly of the two. Planning orders will detail the steps to follow from checking materials out of part stores to the mixing of the adhesives. Inspection criteria will be involved in every step, rejection tags will run rampant for the slightest deviation from the drawing. A perfectly good assembly will be rejected and scrapped it the adhesive was a day or two out of date or some such minor infraction. It is a world of schedules, part shortageds, specification requirements, rejection tags, special tools, and pressure, pressure, pressure. To build a fishing rod under the same exacting conditions would cost thousnads of dollars per rod. Having likved extensively in both worlds, I am not impressed with this attempt to bring spacecraft lessons into my world of rod building, however we can use some of the spacecraft technology if we are carefully selective and choose what is truly useful, and ignore the rest. The author's of "World's Strongest Ferrule - Update" have reiterated the original statement that one half of a sixt-fourth (.008) (8 mils) should be maintained between hard surfaces and that nothing has happened to change that key number. My contention is that nothing ever happened to make it a key number in the first place. This is merely an arbitrary opinion of some junior technician which has been taken as the gospel because he works in space technology. Can he produce statistically sound dat upholking this rather brash opinion? I think not. However for his job in bonding graphite rods into metal ferrules I'm sure that the requirement for a minimum bond thickness i sound and based on good engineering principles. Principles that do not necessarily hold true when building a fishing rod. But where is his data (and pictures) that show that this 8 mil bond line which pulled 12 tons is any better - stronger - than if the bond line had been 3 mils? He also has a special tool - - or assembly jig to align and hold steady his parts while the adhesive cures. He probably uses an adhesive that requires an oven bake to cure the bond. Further more he is trained in assembling bonded parts. he knows the importance (drawing requirement) of 100% wetting of all maiting surfaces. He is trained to assemble the surfaces and exclude most of the air. He knows the importance of these things, whereas our average rod builder does not because he has never been exposed to them. If I were foolish enough to fall for this nonsense, here is what I am into in building a rod. I build a lot of travel rods from one piece blanks. This means cutting the blank into 4 pieces, then making external ferrules for assembling the finished rod. On lighter blanks (fly rods) I prefer to use a cyanoacrylates (known as super glues) adhesive rather than an epoxy. This requires a very tight fit or the cyanoacrylate will not cure. The normal bond line is usually about .00025 in. that is 1/4 of 1 mil. I have bonded countless hundreds and hundreds of these on many hundreds of rods for about 25 years. I am not aware of any ferrule bond failures among them. If I make this ferrule with an 8 mil bond lime, I must shim the blank under the ferrule with thread and make a larger ferrule. But now my ferrule will not fit its mating part. Do I build up the mating area on the next section? Won't that look weird? Even if these aspects were resolvable, I am still building a rod with three ferrules, all fo which are now heavier than they should be. I have spoiled the action of the rod wiht these thick glue lines because of the extra-weight. I no longer have the blank's original feel and touch, all lost through the ferrules. How about the tip top? I asways bond my tips with hot melt glue. I buy 3M commercial grade. I have a #5 tip on this rod, but now I am supposed to install a #7 tip top. This is indeed the height of folly. What is all this extra glue and extra mass of metal supposed to gain? Do any of you have trouble with your tip tops? Does anybodyt reallty believe that this extra mass fo glue will give their tips any more staying power? Those of you who believe it will - - I have some neat ocean front property in Arizona that I would like to talk to you about. Lets get to our handle assembly. This is one place on a rod where I could buy this 8 mil jazz. i asways wondered why Fuji put those lengthwise ridges in their reel seats. I once asked a Fuji rep at one of our trade shows what they are for and he claimed that they are there to prevent the reel seat from rotating on the rod in the event of bond failure. They simply act as a mechanical lock. Whatever the reason, thick glue lines on reel seats are the norm and cerainly do not do any harm, (as they would on ferrules) however I do not see any reason for extending this to the corks or foam. Keep in mind that the thicker your glue line on the handle, the further away from the blank the less feel will be transferred to your hand. The thicker glue line acts as a damper and will not transfer sensations. Theoretically this means missed strikes etc. The requirements for building a good custom fishing rod, run far beyond merely getting the strongest possible glue joint. I have reviewed the original essay that the authors are updating, and of the many glaring errors in this article the most dangerous one and the one that has probably hurt the most people (rodbuilders) is the nonsense about ageing and storage fo epoxies. As an epoxy adhesive manufacturer, I speak with some knowledge on this subject. Never, repaeat never under any circumstances store you epoxies in the freezer or even in the refrigerator. All of you have probalby noticed how the resin turns a murky then whitish and finally turns to a solid when it gets a little cold. This is the epoxy resin crystallizing. Too many people think this is the resin turning bad and proceed to throw it away. When the resin crystallizes, it will not reverse itself at room temperature. It must be exposed to a higher temperature such as 20 seconds in the microwave, or ten or fifteen minutes immersed in hot tap water. Whatever it takes to bring the resin back to clarity and liquidity. The resin has not been hurt by crystallizing, and when it returns to normal after the heat treatment, it is just as good as it ever was. However, you have not added on second of useful life to the resin by freezing it. We ship our epoxies (both rod bond and DuraGloss) all over the US and further. During the winter we get phone calls almost daily from some guy that received his kit and the resin part is no good and he wants an exchange. We patiently tell him to put it in a dish and zap it with a microwave at about 20 second intervals until it is nice and clear. You have to be careful not to melt the contairner in the microwave. epoxies should be strored between 60 and 90 degrees F., in a closed container. They will last almost indefinitely at this temperature. There is no truth to the claim to use it within six monthos of the time that you bought it. The amine harderner will have some deterioration if they are not stored properly (at room temp in a closed container of metal or glass) It is doubtful if the dererioration will happen in one lifetime, and very doubtful if it could be detected except by very sublte test instruments. It certainly would never amount to anything that would affect the quality of a fishing rod. I agree that there are adhesives that our spacecrafter uses that are kept in the freezer, but those are not room curing epoxies. Manufacturers put a shelf life on those items to protect themselves from improper storage 9such as improboper frezing of resins that will crystallize) There are many adhesives that must be stored at freezing tempreratures, and even then will severely deteriorate in about 6 months. But this doesn't hold true all conditions. If any of you out there don't believe this and you have epoxies around that you think are to old, ship them to me, I'll put them to good use. The authors spacecraft friend whjo told him to store at freezer temperature simply does not know what he is talking about and one naturally wonders if any of his other recommendations have any merit. Summary: 1. There is no data or evidence of any kind to show that an 8 mil bond line is any stronger than a 1 mil, 2 mil, or 3 mil bond using the materials that we use in rod building. The disadvantages of the thicker bond lines are many. Added weight, less feel, spoiled actions, more area open for moisture migration through the notoriously porous epoxies. I personally have about 30 years experience in makaing thin, thin, epoxy bonds with 100% success on many hunkreds and hundreds of rods of all shapes and forms. This is good solid empirical data that far outweighs the the theoretical nonsense professed in the article. I have yet to come across a condition in rod building in which I needed to obtain more strength in my bonded juoints. And more important, more strength will not mean better longetivity. 2. Claena your blanks with Scotchbrite grey or green. Grey being coarser than Green. If you have an old dirty one, clean it with Old Dutch Cleanser and wipe it dry with clean water. Never use sandpaper if you can help it. When it is absolutely necessary to use sandpaper, never use a grit heavier thatn #400. It is not necessary to clean the inside of grahite (or any nonmetallic) reel seats. It is necessary to be sure that the entire surface area being bonded is wetted with adhesive before assembly. Any time you are bonding aluminum, use alodine or you will have sever corrosion in a very short time. Alcohol I agree is the solvent of chouce when cleaning with solvents (which should be kept to a bare minimum) but what alcohol? Methanol is entirely too poisonous to have around the home. Ethyl? Why waste a good scotch or bourbon? There are many alcohols, but the one for our rodcrafting is Isopropyl or IPA. This is just plain old rubbing alcohol, and it is good for cleaning the plasticizer out of butt caps. Never touch a blank with any of the Ketones including Acetone (acetone is a ketone you know) When cleaning a surface with solvent (IPA) use clean linen as a pad. Rub the surface briskly and be sure to wipe it dry. Never allow the solvent to dry on the cleaned surface. 3. Never store your epoxy adhesives or finishies in the freezer. When your epoxy resin turns murky or white, it has crystallized and will not reverse itself at room temperature no matter how patiently you may waitl The more pure an epoxy, the higher the crystallia\zation point. Some epoxies crystallize at 75 deg. F. When it happenst ot you, immerse it in hot tap water for about 15 minutes or until it turns clear. As a better alternative, zap it in the microwave oven but be careful not to melt the bottle that it came in. Never mind about the shelf lijfe of your epoxies, they will be just as good as they were the day that you bought them if they are stored in closed containers between 60 and 90 deg. F., and don't listen to the dooms day prophets that heard some rumor from the spacecraft people. Keep in mind, it is manufacturers in the business world who supply the spacecrafters with their exotic materials; it is these same manufacturers who determine the rules of the game, including shelf life. There are many reasons for specifying a shelf life that have nothing to do with how long an adhesive will actually last. I hafe opened cans or our adhesives stored in the back room the specification requires. 4. Good bonding, requires good fitting of mating parts. It is a routine spacecraft requirement and common sense anywhere to pre-fit your parts before applying the adhesive. The better bonds are those requiring pressure. When pressure is not applied to a curing bond, it is called a cast bond. Cast bonds are not allowed for primary structural parts. In a cast bond you have air entrapment, which displaces bond are. When you add spacers in the form of nylon thread or wire or whatever, you have compounded the problem and now have more air than you have adhesive. Also the thread/wire spacing makes marvelous paths for moisture to migrate and destroy the bond over time. Pressure will drive out the air, and assure a 100%coverage of the bond area with adhesive. Ferrules should fit finger tight, as should tip tops. Apply adgesive to both surfaces and install with a twisting motion. Twist and turn the parts several times to drive out as much air as possible (you cannot get it all without more pressure) Always use a filled adhesive, one that is manufactured with fillers in the resin and hardener. These are in paste form rather than lizuid form. Be sure your adhesive contains a slip agent, which will enable you to slide the parts around for positioning after they are assembled. On tip tops, put a #5 tip top on a #5 tip, and a #7 tip top on a #7 tip, the way the industry intends. It is best to use a good commercial quality Hot Melt adhesive on your tip tops. I use two of them; one melts at 170 deg. F. the other one melts at 325 deg. F. I use the latter on rods destined for the tropics.Ian ScottWishbone Custom Rods wishbone@headwaters.comhttp://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone ********************************************************************************************* "The butterfly counts not months but moments,and has time enough." Rabindranath TagoreFireflies, 1928 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 13 18:28:23 1996 Subject: Re: Urac Martin, bethat the batgh had too much shelf time. It's been too long to remember.Hank, from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 13 19:03:34 1996 Subject: Re: Shooting line. Russ wrote:I'm not sure it's a fair comparison to try to throw a DT with graphite. That's interesting. I've had rods (cane) that wouldn't balance properly with a WF, and others that seemed to respond very well. Tapers,again.As for shooting with 10' of line out, I have several rods that can shoot more than 10' of line with only 10' out. I've never measured theexact amount, but that is an exciting test bed. Sorta' like the British magazine CAR which rates cars 0-20 in 1st gear, 10-40 in second, 30-70 in third,etc.After all, it is important how much work is expended getting out the first 35 feet, especially when fishing streamers or wet flies. Great work, guys, in developing a new grading system for working rods (as opposed to casting rods). Reedrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 13 19:14:52 1996 Subject: glue lines -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Gaps in the joints of a rod indicate either faulty binding or faultycutting; perhaps even poorly made forms. But they do not indicate apoor glue. Zimny from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 13 19:23:12 1996 Subject: Re: George Barnes' book I have a copy, send out a letter to all the used book dealers and they willcall you when they get one. Ususally they buy their books in a lgcollection at a time, there aren't a lot around, but they aren't rare either. JB I have been trying with no success for some time now to find a copy ofGeorgeBarnes' book on rodmaking. I'm not a book collector and am not concernedabout condition as long as it is readable. Does anyone know where I mightfind a copy?Thanks - - Tom Smithwick (TSmithwick@aol.com) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 00:07:19 1996 Subject: Re: George Barnes' book I like the people at Anglers Art, but Steve Starrantino at the Armchair Angler (914 357-8746) found me a copy at a very reasonable price. Also, just received a copy of the George Maurer book. Very good.zig from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 07:32:14 1996 Subject: Re: Heat-treating In a message dated 96-05-13 10:07:23 EDT, you write: Has anyone any notion of the origins of heat-treating cane? Could it have been Mrs. Oleary's cow???? :-))))) Okay, okay...I'll shut up and go back to my coffee! :-) Mike - flaming - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Maybe it was Ed Payne's cousin, Nellie. :>{ RT from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 11:06:07 1996 Subject: Books A new and used book seller near my office gets some good used books,closeout, and new books. They will order new books and discount at abetterrate than I've found elsewhere. I recently had a Ray Bergman book (Just fishing) at an awsome price. Theyare not a book search firm, but will consider customer wish lists as theyconduct the used and closeout part of their business. They are Frugal Muse Books in Madison, WI 608-833-8668. I don't intend this to be an advertisement or conflict with the business ofsome on this list. It just seems this little firm could be a good resource WJLWilliam J. Lorman------------------------------------MicroAge - Madison608- 829-3585 local800-724-1235 v608-829-4628 fhttp: //www.mamadison.com (long needed update coming soon) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 11:34:43 1996 Subject: Ooops! I'm having trouble receiving mail over the internet again, so I'm doingthe unsub re-sub bit again, and I mistakenly sent the message to thelist instead of the processor. Sorry for the erreant message. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 11:45:45 1996 Subject: Re: Ooops! I'm having trouble receiving mail over the internet again, so I'm doingthe unsub re-sub bit again, and I mistakenly sent the message to thelist instead of the processor. Sorry for the erreant message. Darryl Hayashida Hello Darryl, Seems like many of us are. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 13:42:18 1996 Subject: Nodeless Construction I know this discussion has gone on before, but I am having some problemswith planning the layout for a one-piece nodeless rod. Using the spliceangle of 4- deg as shown on the Garrison splice block, it looks like I'llwind up with all splice and shavings and not much rod !! Has anyone arrived at a less severe angle ?? I know Chris Bogart'sdiscussion on his work did not indicate a problem, but I cannot locate anyreference to specific splice angles in the old archives. Thoughtsappreciated !! Karl HubeMarietta, Georgia from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 14:03:01 1996 Subject: Article on Epoxies and Epoxy techniques I emailed an article on epoxies and proper techniques and preparation. Was it received? There seem to be some delivery problems. Ian ScottIan ScottWishbone Custom Rods wishbone@headwaters.comhttp://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone ********************************************************************************************* "The butterfly counts not months but moments,and has time enough." Rabindranath TagoreFireflies, 1928 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 14:10:12 1996 Subject: Re: Nodeless Construction rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu's message of 14-May-96 14:24 boundary=Boundary-2153266-0-0 --Boundary-2153266-0-0 The length of a scarf joint should be about 7-10x the width of thematerial you are joining. The 4 deg. angle is about right. When your strip is planed to final specs it will look more reasonable. Good luck! --Boundary-2153266-0-0 Subject: Nodeless Construction CREN I know this discussion has gone on before, but I am having some problemswith planning the layout for a one-piece nodeless rod. Using the spliceangle of 4- deg as shown on the Garrison splice block, it looks like I'llwind up with all splice and shavings and not much rod !! Has anyone arrived at a less severe angle ?? I know Chris Bogart'sdiscussion on his work did not indicate a problem, but I cannot locate anyreference to specific splice angles in the old archives. Thoughtsappreciated !! Karl HubeMarietta, Georgia --Boundary-2153266-0-0-- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 14:14:40 1996 Subject: RE: Article on Epoxies and Epoxy techniques =I emailed an article on epoxies and proper techniques and=preparation. Was it received? There seem to be some delivery=problems.=Ian Scott=Wishbone Custom Rodsgot it here..... Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 14:45:51 1996 Subject: Re: Nodeless Construction This advice is from a rank beginner, so take it FWIW... I posed this question several months ago, and did not really receivean "authoritative" response. I made my splicing block for a 6-degreeangle, which seems to work out all right. On strips averaging about1/4 to 3/8 of an inch in width, it makes the length of a splice about 3 inches, which is just right for 3 spring clamps or spring paper clips,whatever you use. If my rusty trig is OK length_of_splice = width_of_strip / tan(splice_angle) One little wrinkle I've found...make sure that the pith side of yourstrips is smooth before placing in the splicing block. If thereis one of those little ridges on the pith it might not seat straightin the block and your splice won't be at right angles to the enamel side.Knock off those ridges with a plane first. Pay attention to how thestrip seats itself. A second tip...if you've got a band saw, make a jig to quicklycut an approximate 6 degree (or whatever) angle on the strips. Thenput in the block and plane it down in a few strokes. Much faster than planing down the whole angle from scratch.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Tue, 14 May 1996, Karl Hube wrote: I know this discussion has gone on before, but I am having someproblemswith planning the layout for a one-piece nodeless rod. Using the spliceangle of 4- deg as shown on the Garrison splice block, it looks like I'llwind up with all splice and shavings and not much rod !! Has anyone arrived at a less severe angle ?? I know Chris Bogart'sdiscussion on his work did not indicate a problem, but I cannot locateanyreference to specific splice angles in the old archives. Thoughtsappreciated !! Karl HubeMarietta, Georgia from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 15:08:29 1996 Subject: Re: Article on Epoxies and Epoxy techniques Got your article. I'm in the process of printing it out. thanks very much, Jim Boone. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 15:51:49 1996 Subject: information on Francis Degere? I owonder if any of you can give me the address or 'phone number of Francis Degere, ther cane rodmaker who lives somewhere in western MAssachusetts; or if you copuld simply tell me the twon in which he lives. Charles Butter from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 16:09:53 1996 I recently found a 3-pc. bamboo rod at a garage sale the maker of whichwasnamed Skinner. Can anyone help me with identifying this person? Did heachieve any acclaim in the bamboo rod business? Thanks in advance. Tom Claflin Thomas O. Claflin, ProfessorDepartment of BiologyUniversity of Wisconsin-La CrosseLa Crosse, WI 54601TEL (608)785-8239FAX (608)785-6959 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 18:42:28 1996 Subject: Re: information on Francis Degere? He can be reached c/o Points North Flyfishing Outfitters and Fred Moran at(413) 743-4030. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 18:48:31 1996 Subject: Re: Nodeless Construction Karl What John and Frank say is true. I have one of John's splicing jigsand theangle is the same as Garrison. Your problem may come from the buttsectionand using the small sections from the bottom of the culm. I usually moveupand use the larger sections and take two pieces from each section to makethebutt from and discard the lower part of the culm. There is plenty of culmtodo this with since not much is wasted in spliting. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 18:59:59 1996 Subject: Message from Ron (The Planing Form) I was talking with Ron tonight and I said I would pass along someinquires 1) Ron has talked with Harold Demarest and is thinking of bringing in acouple of bundles of bamboo to the get together. Those interested ingettingsome please contact Ron 616 - 945 - 2329 evenings after 7:00 EDT 2) There was talk that it might be a good idea to have a round table ofexperienced makers that would answer questions from the group aboutdifferenttechniques, materials, tools, or whatever. Ron is looking for interestedvolunteers to be part of the panel 3) If anyone has anything to share and would like some time or space he iscomposing an agenda that will be in the next issue of The Planing Form andhere - even at that nothing is hammered in stone 4) He says that so far about 25 have indicated they they will be there from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 21:09:37 1996 Subject: Re: Message from Ron (The Planing Form) I was talking with Ron tonight and I said I would pass along someinquires 1) Ron has talked with Harold Demarest and is thinking of bringing in acouple of bundles of bamboo to the get together. Those interested ingettingsome please contact Ron 616 - 945 - 2329 evenings after 7:00 EDT 2) There was talk that it might be a good idea to have a round table ofexperienced makers that would answer questions from the group aboutdifferenttechniques, materials, tools, or whatever. Ron is looking for interestedvolunteers to be part of the panel 3) If anyone has anything to share and would like some time or space heiscomposing an agenda that will be in the next issue of The Planing Formandhere - even at that nothing is hammered in stone 4) He says that so far about 25 have indicated they they will be there I hope Demarest brings some better bamboo than the shit he sent me,theremust be another supplier besides him?Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 22:15:42 1996 Subject: Re: Tempering Cane - Ovens Hello Dave: Congratulations on your first rod! It really is an achievement, isn't it?It is sincerely hoped that you had the really great feeling ofaccomplishment that seems to still be there for me after each one. Comeonin, the water's fine. My oven was made by Wayne Cattanach. The specs and building proceduresarefound in his book, Handcrafting Bamboo Fly Rods. If you are puttingtogethera library of rod-building books, his is one of the first recommended. The oven designed by Wayne is a good one and works quite well. However,ifyou wish to do extended baking/curing/tempering or whatever to the pointofcoloring the cane, the cane most exposed to the center of the oven willdarken first and most, at least in mine. Let me also add that I am adabblerof sorts, and always trying a lot of off the wall stuff, so thats why thesituation came up. No problem if standard drying and tempering are yourneeds, as is mine most of mine. I spend too much money and time lookingforvarious bamboo building holy grails, hence my comments to Don Anderson. Ifyou build one, you are seriously advised to have someone who is electrictyknowledgeable check it over. There is a way to hook up theswitch/thermostatso that has the hot (electrically) wire is always hot. You may be quitequalified in electricity, so please take this as just a well meaningsuggestion. Not sure how far you are into all this, so am shooting in the dark on thefollowing. There are other good books out there. Should you wish to havealist of them, just e-mail a note and I will send you a list with somesourcing. Also, same on tools, supplies, etc. I was once an instructor, soenjoy helping newcommers and only wish to know how I may. Again, gladyouare into this lovely art. I've heard that Pizza ovens are excellent for cane tempering/drying.. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 22:21:29 1996 Subject: Re: rodmakers At 08:40 PM 5/14/96 -0600, Jerry Foster wrote:Mark .. I suppose Mike responded but there are typically about 15 messages a day but maybe a few less..go ahead and join in Thanks Jerry. Mike and a few others did get back to me. I had no idea itwas Mikes' list - he and I have fished together. Small world. I had poppedmy head into your list thinking it was a rodmakers list in general, notspecifically bamboo. But I've gone ahead and subscribed mostly out ofcuriousity. I promise to lurk quietly. I just finished my first little rodproject, but it's not bamboo. Right now I'm poking around in the archives at the address you sent. Nicepages! Thanks again. -Mark- Bassbugs?? http://walden.mo.net/~devino/bassbug.htmo ________ o ///////(_) _.---'''''''-._ __. ~ Mark Devinoo .-' > > > > > > > `- ._ /==/ ~ APPLIED DATA SYSTEMS_/ >_>_> > > > > >`-'==/ ~ St. Louis/St.Charles, Missouri(.__ ~ > _ )> > > > > >(==( (_' > > \/> > > > > >.-.==\ ~ http://walden.mo.net/~devino/`-.> > > > > > >_.-' \=( ~ devino@mo.net`----------' ~~ ~ "I fish, therefore I lie!" from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 22:55:23 1996 Subject: Fwd: Rod Trade ---------------------Forwarded message: My rod trade idea seems to have died a quiet death. It seems to me that Imight have to take the initiative to lend some credibility to the idea.Afterall if the builder who had the idea won't participate it won't get too far sohere goes.I will trade a 7ft 2pc 3wt in one of my earlier tapers. The taper wasworked out from one of my favorite rods, an 8 1/2 ft Granger 5wt. It issemiparabolic as were the Granger rods, and a bit more delicate than thecurrentseries of Dx rods that I make. It has always been one of my favoritetapers.The rod is NEW, and finished as all my current production rods are. Fullwells grip, uplock NS SB Bellinger with a walnut filler, two tips, wrappedin md brown with black tipping, the ferrules and hardware blued. The onlydifference is I have been using CSE SD Leonard style ferrules instead ofSwiss pattern as I find them aesthetically pleasing on small two pc rods.Therod will be ready in about 8 weeks. I would like rod 7 to 8 1/4 ft & 3 to 5 wt. No Garrison tapers as Ipersonally don't care for them much and I think that modern buildersshouldcome up with their own modern tapers. My propensity to use para rods iswellknown but I also love to use progressive taper rods for dry work. Since Idon't give a damn about catching fish except how I want to anymore I usedries even when my sanity could be questioned. Please respond via my personal address: DIXALEE@AOL.com and we willsee howthis works out.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 14 23:54:57 1996 Subject: Re: Message from Ron (The Planing Form) ACKLAND TERENCE wrote: I was talking with Ron tonight and I said I would pass along someinquires 1) Ron has talked with Harold Demarest and is thinking of bringing in acouple of bundles of bamboo to the get together. Those interested ingettingsome please contact Ron 616 - 945 - 2329 evenings after 7:00 EDT 2) There was talk that it might be a good idea to have a round table ofexperienced makers that would answer questions from the group aboutdifferenttechniques, materials, tools, or whatever. Ron is looking for interestedvolunteers to be part of the panel 3) If anyone has anything to share and would like some time or space heiscomposing an agenda that will be in the next issue of The Planing Formandhere - even at that nothing is hammered in stone 4) He says that so far about 25 have indicated they they will be there I hope Demarest brings some better bamboo than the shit he sent me,theremust be another supplier besides him?Terry Ackland im reading this thread and getting jealous. i never thought id be jealous of flyfishermen who lived elsewhere. ted hess-homeier, Missoula, Montana from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 02:06:19 1996 Subject: Re: information on Francis Degere? Try: Digger Degere6 Plunkett LaneAdams, MA 01220 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 07:51:33 1996 Subject: Bamboo Hello all, I would like to get some bamboo scraps to practice with before I try it on the real thing. I will gladly pay for shipping etc. If you you've got 'em, reply to me privately and we can work out the particulars. Thanks a plentyTom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 08:13:59 1996 Subject: Green River Rod Makers/Shooting at short distance. Do any of you have experience or opinions of Robert Gorman's Green Rivercane rods? I've not cast many cane rods, and tried one with Mr. Gorman's son this pastw-end. My basis of comparison was a few old rods (Heddon, H-I, Montague)I've tried and my favorite graphite models. The 8' 5wt. was VERY fast andcrisp compared to the other cane rods I've tried. I'm on this list to learn more about cane and enjoy the posts. It's a verypolite gang compared to bicycle and car lists I've been part of. This continues the graphite vs. cane thread. Two graphite rods I own cast ashort line better than ANY rod I've tried, so the bashing of all graphiteisn't in order. I have a Winston 8' 4wt. and Scott 6'8" 3wt. that are awsomesmall creek tools. My goal is a beautiful cane rod that fish as well as oneof those models. Thanks for any opinions. WJL from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 11:02:09 1996 Subject: Re: information on Francis Degere? much for theninformation. Charlie Butter On Wed, 15 May 1996 WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Try: Digger Degere6 Plunkett LaneAdams, MA 01220 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 13:07:38 1996 Subject: Administrativa Hello Gang! I've made a few changes to the list to hopefully avoid anypossibility of obnoxious postings to our list. You've allprobably experienced on other lists the growing problem ofSPAM'ing...someone's posting (usually trying to sell something)to every possible mailing list and newsgroup they can get anaddress for. Fortunately we have not been hit yet, and inan effort not to in the future, I have made the followingchanges: 1) Only currently subscribed members will be able to post tothe list. 2) All new subscriptions to the list will first come througha Subscription Manager (me) before being added to the list. All of this should be transparent to currently subscribedmembers, though there are a couple cases where you might notice something different. First off, since the list now willonly accept postings from current subscibers, if you try to postto the list from a different email address than what you subscribedwith, your posting will be blocked. Secondly, if you suspectproblems, and you try the ol' un- SUB/re-SUB trick, your re-SUBrequest will generate a message that your request is beingforwarded to the Subscription Manager for processing. The only problem this might cause is if I happen to be away fromemail for a period of time, in which case your request will gounprocessed, until I return. If I expect to be away from email you folks into filling in for me until my return. If any of you have an interest in helping out, please let me know. I sure hope this doesn't create any problems, I just feel that weshould have a little more control over what is being posted toOUR list. I welcome any, and all comments... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 13:42:02 1996 Subject: Re: Reciculating tempering ovens Don, thanks for taking the time to share the details of youroven! I really like the idea of using the an auxilliaryheating element to help bring the oven up to temp. If anyone has access to a scanner, perhaps we can get a copyof Don's sketch into the archives... Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 14:15:21 1996 Subject: Re: Reciculating tempering ovens At 01:35 PM 5/15/96 CDT, you wrote:Don, thanks for taking the time to share the details of youroven! I really like the idea of using the an auxilliaryheating element to help bring the oven up to temp. If anyone has access to a scanner, perhaps we can get a copyof Don's sketch into the archives... Mail me the sketch and I can get it scanned. If you like, mail me a photoAND the sketch and I'll scan them both. I can return the photo. The scannedimage can be sent to Jerry for posting on his pages somewhere. -Mark- BASSBUGS?? http://walden.mo.net/~devino/bassbug.htm, O .:/ Mark Devino,,///;, ,;/ Sr. Recruitero o:::::::;;/// APPLIED DATA SYSTEMS . >::::::::;;\\\ St. Louis/St. Charles, Missouri ''\\\\\'" ';\ 800-300-1149 or 314-928-1149';\ "I fish, therefore I lie" from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 14:16:09 1996 Subject: Re: Reciculating tempering ovens (OOPS) Oops, forgot the address. Mark Devino1396 Timothy RidgeSt. Charles, MO 63304 At 01:35 PM 5/15/96 CDT, you wrote:Don, thanks for taking the time to share the details of youroven! I really like the idea of using the an auxilliaryheating element to help bring the oven up to temp. If anyone has access to a scanner, perhaps we can get a copyof Don's sketch into the archives... Mail me the sketch and I can get it scanned. If you like, mail me a photoAND the sketch and I'll scan them both. I can return the photo. The scannedimage can be sent to Jerry for posting on his pages somewhere. -Mark- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 14:12:30 1996 Subject: Re: Reciculating tempering ovens I have a scanner and once scanned I can place it on a server so everyonecanlook at it.let me know if you are interested. At 01:35 PM 5/15/96 CDT, you wrote:Don, thanks for taking the time to share the details of youroven! I really like the idea of using the an auxilliaryheating element to help bring the oven up to temp. If anyone has access to a scanner, perhaps we can get a copyof Don's sketch into the archives... Mike BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. *********************************************************************Shawn Raymond**Oracle DBA**763-5278**http://www- personal.umich.edu/~srraymon/index.htm and* *http://www.gtii.com/fish/michfish.htm********************************************************************* from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 17:12:43 1996 Subject: Success and a new project This is a great day for me. Two days ago I finished my first rod. Two yearsin the making required a lot of understanding and help from my wife. Ipromised the first finished rod would be hers. It is an 8' 2piece 6weight.Today we went to the local pond. It worked like a charm. Joan never castedbetter. After she landed a one pound rainbow I had a turn. I could easilythrow 50 to 60 feet of line with accuracy.It would handle fish with ease.An experienced bamboo fisherman friend who came with us said the bigestmistake I could make is to try and make a second one. I would like to givecredit and thanks for help and direction to Peter McVey at Corbett Lake,Garrison's text and especially Wayne Cattanach's book which has becomemybible. Now that my wife is pleased my next rod is for me. I would like toconstruct a 6 to 6 1/2 foot 2piece rod for a 3wt line to fish small brownsand rainbows in the local streams. I hope someone on the letter willprovide me with a set of tapers for such a rod. I look forward withappreciation to any replies. Jim Boone. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 18:04:31 1996 Subject: Re: Green River Rod Makers/Shooting at short distance. This continues the graphite vs. cane thread. Two graphite rods I own castashort line better than ANY rod I've tried, so the bashing of all graphiteisn't in order. I have a Winston 8' 4wt. and Scott 6'8" 3wt. that areawsomesmall creek tools. My goal is a beautiful cane rod that fish as well as oneof those models. Thanks for any opinions. WJL Most rods are not designed to cast short and I mean short. I have one ofthose Scott rods (Murray's mountain rod) and It is one of the best graphiterods for small streams (Scott's best seller - I've been told). It is thereason I started making bamboo rods for my fishing (moutain freestonestreams make certain casts. I now have worked on tapers that excell at this typeoffishing. I have people call these rods "trickster" rods - since they canmakeall the trick casts needed in these conditions. I now let people cast theScott rod then cast one of my rods - no comparison on which is better forshort distances. Soooo... next time someone tells you a rod is suitable forsmall streams or casts short - ask him what it means. Just because a rodisshort doesn't mean it will cast short well. Lessons to be learned here. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 18:53:47 1996 Subject: Re: Administrativa rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu wrote: Hello Gang! I've made a few changes to the list to hopefully avoid anypossibility of obnoxious postings to our list. You've allprobably experienced on other lists the growing problem ofSPAM'ing...someone's posting (usually trying to sell something)to every possible mailing list and newsgroup they can get anaddress for. Fortunately we have not been hit yet, and inan effort not to in the future, I have made the followingchanges: 1) Only currently subscribed members will be able to post tothe list. 2) All new subscriptions to the list will first come througha Subscription Manager (me) before being added to the list. All of this should be transparent to currently subscribedmembers, though there are a couple cases where you mightnotice something different. First off, since the list now willonly accept postings from current subscibers, if you try to postto the list from a different email address than what you subscribedwith, your posting will be blocked. Secondly, if you suspectproblems, and you try the ol' un- SUB/re-SUB trick, your re-SUBrequest will generate a message that your request is beingforwarded to the Subscription Manager for processing. The only problem this might cause is if I happen to be away fromemail for a period of time, in which case your request will gounprocessed, until I return. If I expect to be away from email you folks into filling in for me until my return. If any of you have an interest in helping out, please let me know. I sure hope this doesn't create any problems, I just feel that weshould have a little more control over what is being posted toOUR list. I welcome any, and all comments... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS ListguyThanks Mike, We all appreciate your dedication andconcern from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 20:12:45 1996 Subject: Re: Success and a new project Jim -You already have it - page 220 Congratulations Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 21:33:25 1996 Subject: Rod Finish Every time I see a used Paul Young for sale it is described as "varnished".This has always confused me a bit because to the best of my recollecton( from reading old catalogs in the 60s and early 70s) I thought he usedsomekind of impregnation process. Finally got ahold of the 1956 reproductionPaul Young Co. catalog which has fotos of cane being prepared etc. Fromthecatalog, these words on "Protective Coating": Our coating is 100% bakalite (sic) gum, cut to a fast runningconsistency with Zylol, a highly volatile carrier. We dip our wrappedsections bodily into this dissolved bakalite solution, get all thepenetration desired, and do not spoil the sweet action, slow up therecoverypowers, make our cane loggy, or bind the fibers together with a deadeningeffect that prevents free flexation. Our protection is complete. Experimental rods that were used in salt water without washing for threeyears were clesned up and look new. They have lost none of their castingpower, are straight, have no loose ferrules, and are fulfilling theirintended purpose. The same catalog lists rod varnish for $0 .50 a jar, "This bakelite(sic)base varnish has been found most durable and best for fresh and saltwater.It's easy to apply and is very tough and elastic." The catalog also has some interesting claims on the strength of the bondsinyoung rods. Could anyone clarify for me what the finish is and does anyone know whatglue he used?Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state.:Tom McGuane from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 21:55:11 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Finish Young rods had to be impervious to alcohol - their writings were perhapsclouded by it as well. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 15 22:25:09 1996 Subject: South Bend Rods Hi y'all, I know that this group is more into making rods, not collecting old onesbutI hope that you can give me some advice. I would like to obtain a bamboorod for small stream fishing without spending an arm and a leg. I firstthought that a good entry method would be to purchase a blank and finishtherod myself. I had a couple of catalogs that listed Partridge blanks butfurther investigation revealed that the blanks were not in stock at eithercompany. I then sent Email messages to a couple of the list membersaskingif they sold blanks but did not receive a reply from either person. I'm nowconsidering purchasing a rod from Centennial Classic Sales. They have acouple of South Bend 7 1/2 for 5's available that sound interesting. Now for my question. Are the South Bends suitable as entry level fishingrods? I know that they won't be worth much as collector items but dotheycast reasonably close in feel/action to a contemporary rod? I don't wanttopurchase a dog that might turn me off to bamboo before I have had achanceto cast a decent example. Anyone have some good suggestions? BTW, I'd like to own one to fish for awhile before I make the investment intime and money to build one from scratch. Thanks,--------------------John JohnsonAtlanta, GAjjohnson@netime.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 00:26:08 1996 Subject: Re: Green River Rod Makers/Shooting at short distance. In a message dated 96-05-15 10:09:23 EDT, you write: This continues the graphite vs. cane thread. Two graphite rods I own castashort line better than ANY rod I've tried, so the bashing of all graphiteisn't in order. I have a Winston 8' 4wt. and Scott 6'8" 3wt. that areawsomesmall creek tools. My goal is a beautiful cane rod that fish as well as oneof those models. WJL,The two mfrs mentioned are also two of the best at designing rods thatactually DO have an action vs just being stiff.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 00:26:20 1996 Subject: Re: Administrativa In a message dated 96-05-15 14:05:04 EDT, you write: I welcome any, and all comments... Mike,This list has always been cordial, polite, and civil. Properties that arenot always [oh heck!!, NEVER] found in todays society. This is a greatrefuge from THE 90'S. Sigh! I grew up in a town that could have doubled forMayberryRFD. As with any good old town we need a sheriff to keep out theundesirables. Thanks Mike!,A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 00:26:26 1996 Subject: Re: Success and a new project In a message dated 96-05-15 18:11:39 EDT, you write: Now that my wife is pleased my next rod is for me. I would like toconstruct a 6 to 6 1/2 foot 2piece rod for a 3wt line to fish smallbrownsand rainbows in the local streams. I hope someone on the letter willprovide me with a set of tapers for such a rod. I look forward withappreciation to any replies. Jim Boone. Hi Jim,Congratulations!!!!! It's been a while since my first rod but I can stillremember like it was yesterday. As per your request here is a slightlyslowfull flex semi-para rod. A favorite for small trout and especially bluegill.The tip can be changed up or down about .006" to vary the delicacy of theroda bit.0-- .0565-- .06810-- .08415-- .09420-- .11025-- .12630-- .14035-- .15440--. 16645-- .17250-- .18455-- .19660-- .22065-- .24070 and down -- .248Give it a tryA.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 10:12:33 1996 Subject: Re: Success and a new project In a message dated 96-05-16 01:20:22 EDT, you write: As per your request here is a slightly slowfull flex semi-para rod. A favorite for small trout and especially bluegill. Hello AJ:Really quite nice of you to share that taper with Jim Boon, and hence therest of us. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 10:12:45 1996 Subject: Re: South Bend Rods Hello John:The 7-1/2 # 5 South Bend rods you mention are probably the # 290. Iknow acouple of bamboo advocates who think highly of them. I have fished one(lake clouded by it as well. Wayne, are you saying Mr. Young liked to take a little nip,or two every now and then??? :-) Mike - I'll have a 'nip' please - medicinally of course - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 11:46:42 1996 Subject: Re: Success and a new project A. J. ......... Thanks for the taper you shared. I plotted the data overtwo other short rod designs and without doing any calculations I'd say thislooks like a 3 wt design ? Is that what you use on it ? This looks good for some our streams up in the Smokies and NorthGeorgia. Regards Karl Hube The tip can be changed up or down about .006" to vary the delicacy of theroda bit.0-- .0565-- .06810-- .08415-- .09420-- .11025-- .12630-- .14035-- .15440--. 16645-- .17250-- .18455-- .19660-- .22065-- .24070 and down -- .248Give it a tryA.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 13:07:07 1996 Subject: RE: Success and a new project ---------- Subject: Re: Success and a new project A. J. ......... Thanks for the taper you shared. I plotted the data overtwo other short rod designs and without doing any calculations I'd say thislooks like a 3 wt design ? Is that what you use on it ? This looks good for some our streams up in the Smokies and NorthGeorgia. Regards Karl Hube Using my spreadsheet on this taper, 50 feet of 2 wt line would generatea max stress of 234,000 15 inches from the tip. If your max casts wereshorter than 50 feet, you could go with a 3 wt DT line. If you are using aweight forward taper, then a 3wt would work in most all situations. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 14:13:01 1996 Subject: RE: Success and a new project Darryl Wrote:Using my spreadsheet on this taper, 50 feet of 2 wt line would generatea max stress of 234,000 15 inches from the tip. If your max casts wereshorter than 50 feet, you could go with a 3 wt DT line. If you are using aweight forward taper, then a 3wt would work in most all situations. Help me on this, I'm new to stresses.. What's an "Ideal" stress number?? Also can you explain to me the DT and WF tapers? I know the difference but I'm not sure I understand when to use one or the other. Thanks Question for Bruce re: ROD96I remember someone said something about gray blocks on the stress graphs. I'm also experiencing this, what was the solution? Great tool, thanks!!! While I'm at it: Mike "nip or Two" Biondo:Thanks and keep up the great work. Tom "nip or three" Ausfeld from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 15:05:18 1996 Subject: Young' coatings -- [ From: John Zimny * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- To Mike et al A varnish consists of a resin, usually a vegetable drying oil, reduceror thinner, and perhaps a dryer and a UV protector in various andsundry proportions. The proportional blend of these elements determinethe drying, application, and film performance of whatever concoctionhas been dreamed up. A 100% mix of resin and reducer would most likelybe closer in perfomance characteristics to glue rather than a flexiblelong oil varnish which I thought would be most useful in fly rodcoatings. However, by heating the resin one might get it to coat in afashion resembling a varnish.Incidentally, I have seen a Paul Young rod, one that he himself used,coated with rubber cement. John Zimny from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 16:02:23 1996 Subject: RE: Success and a new project Darryl Wrote:Using my spreadsheet on this taper, 50 feet of 2 wt line would generatea max stress of 234,000 15 inches from the tip. If your max casts wereshorter than 50 feet, you could go with a 3 wt DT line. If you are using aweight forward taper, then a 3wt would work in most all situations. Help me on this, I'm new to stresses.. What's an "Ideal" stress number?? Also can you explain to me the DT and WF tapers? I know the difference but I'm not sure I understand when to use one or the other. Thanks Of course this is open to interpretation, but using Garrison's numbers,he felt stresses above 220,000 would start to break or severely stressthebamboo fibers to where they would take a set. I have found that 220,000is a "safe" number and the 234,000 in this taper is probably okay. I wouldn't plan a taper to go much above this, and definitely wouldn'tget near 250,000. On the other end, Garrison felt that at 140,000 thebamboo ceased to flex or contribute to the "action" of the rod, and heliked the full length of the rod to flex in a cast, so he used a topstressof 220,000 and a lower boundary of 140,000. The way I am beginningto use the stresses is to look at the shape of the stress graph to tryandpredict what type of action the rod will have. Looking at the stressgraphof the posted taper, I would say this rod would be in the medium to medium slow range. The first 30 ft. of a same weight DT and WF line will be the same. But, because the WF line tapers down to the running line at this point theWF line weighs less in comparison to the DT longer than 30 or so feet. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 16:44:56 1996 Subject: Phantom Poster Sorry about the double post, I only clicked the sendbutton once, Honestly! I have no idea why my post appeared twice. I havebeen put on a Microsoft Exchange pilot test and Ihave been experiencing strange things happeningto my mail. So, please bear with me over the nextfew weeks while I get these things sorted out. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 17:45:35 1996 Subject: Re: South Bend Rods I then sent Email messages to a couple of the list members askingif they sold blanks but did not receive a reply from either person. I'mnowconsidering purchasing a rod from Centennial Classic Sales. They have acouple of South Bend 7 1/2 for 5's available that sound interesting. John,Several points I'd like to offer: 1/ for some reason the number of used quality cane rods is dependent on geography, check Bob Corsetti's catalogue, as well as Dick's, he often has fixerupers for less than $100, even good names, 2/ several list members have been satisfied with a mixand match of, say, a butt blank from Sam Carlson's old stock ($75) and a tip or two new from Corsetti, 3/ I've passed up a mint 290 for $115, its amatter of taste, but when a rod is built with too few guides, then too much was sacrificed for cost. (IMHO) Good luck,Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 17:45:56 1996 Subject: How to make bamboo f Over the past year or so, a number of peolple have asked if my old book,HOW TOMAKE BAMBOO FLY RODS, was still available. Each time I've answered no,sincethe last I heard from the publisher they were trying to unload remainingbooks. Today I went to BOOKLAND, in search of a copy of Wayne Cattanach's book.Acomputer search revealed nothing on his book but the secon search, simplyfor"Bamboo Fly Rods, turned up three, the second of which was my 1974publication. New Win PublishingP.O. Box 5159Clinton, NJ 08809 SAN: 217-1201 TEL: 908-735-9701 FAX: 908-735-9703 I think the list price was $14.95 I'll give everyone fair warning. I can't think of anything that I still do thesame as in 1974 unless it's using the same old hunting knife to split thecanein two. If you want it for a collector's item, fine but I'd not use it to builda rod. There are a lot better approaches that have developed since then. Now that that mystery is solved, does anyone know where I can findWayne's book? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 19:13:46 1996 Subject: Re: How to make bamboo f George, Just send Wayne a note on the list, I'm sure he would be happy to help youout. jB Over the past year or so, a number of peolple have asked if my old book,HOW TOMAKE BAMBOO FLY RODS, was still available. Each time I've answered no,sincethe last I heard from the publisher they were trying to unload remainingbooks. Today I went to BOOKLAND, in search of a copy of Wayne Cattanach's book.Acomputer search revealed nothing on his book but the secon search,simply for"Bamboo Fly Rods, turned up three, the second of which was my 1974publication. New Win PublishingP.O. Box 5159Clinton, NJ 08809 SAN: 217-1201 TEL: 908-735-9701 FAX: 908-735-9703 I think the list price was $14.95 I'll give everyone fair warning. I can't think of anything that I still do thesame as in 1974 unless it's using the same old hunting knife to split thecanein two. If you want it for a collector's item, fine but I'd not use it tobuilda rod. There are a lot better approaches that have developed since then. Now that that mystery is solved, does anyone know where I can findWayne'sbook? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 20:00:08 1996 Subject: Short casts (a definition offered) The shortlived thread on shooting line set my three remaining braincells throbbing. I find that in many fishing situations, even on medium size rivers, I'm casting a very short line. Working pockets with a dry fly while wading upstream, I might have only two feet of line beyond the rod tip.When fishing small streamers for smallmouths at my favorite spillway, I might cast 45' and then turn and cast 20'. Also, how much line can I shoot withno false- casting; always a factor when working wet flies in close before picking up. So I offer the following table of what is for this Eastern angler, short line casting. I'll try to get measurements of the performance of some ofmy favorite rods this weekend. I'm supposing a 10' leader. Line from Rod Leader Straightens Line Shot without FalseCasting ________________________________________________________________________ 6"________________________________________________________________________ 2'_________________________________________________________________________ 5'_________________________________________________________________________ 10'_________________________________________________________________________ 20'_________________________________________________________________________ Beyond 20' (which with an 8' rod, 10' leader = 35' with 3' deducted for catenary) I would consider no longer short line casting. Would someone else fill in the table above with results of their favoriterod? Reedrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 22:39:10 1996 Subject: South Bend rods Dear John:The South Bend's you asked about are model 290's - Dick Spurr also hasamodel 291 (same rod in 4 piece). The 290's are not bad rods for what theywereintended for. They were everyday rods for the average guy - not amercedes butmore a volkswagon. The 290's a fairly fast rod and casts a 5wt prettywell. AnOK rod for starters. Dick Spurr also has a Phillipson Peerless 71/2',5wt inthecatalog. Also a good rod ,also pretty fast. I'll second Bill Cooper - callDickand ask . Also you might try Bob Corsetti @ Rod&Reels, 17 Massasoit RD.Nashua,NH 03063. 603-886-0411. Bob carries some very nice rods at pretty goodprices.Good luck - let us know how it turns out. Dennis Higham from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 22:55:40 1996 Subject: Oven temps Just finished my heat treating oven(last Month) and treated my first rodstripstoday. Now for my question... My oven's a Wayne C. design (Wayne furnishedthecarcass and I did the rest)w/ 750 watts of strip heater. I modified Waynesdesign a little. I added a pilot light so I could tell when the oven's heatingand drill a small hole(3/16") in the side mid-oven just above the screenshelf.I inserted a probe thermometer (candy thermometer-looks just like a meatthermo.with a probe and dial face, goes up to 400 degrees) into the hole and canmonitor the internal temps. I preheated for 40 min @375 then inserted mystrips.The oven temps dropped to 330-335 within 45 sec. after 3.5 min the oventempswere 345-350 and I flipped the strips end for end. The oven temps droppedbackto 330-335. After 3.5 min(7min total) the oven was back up to 345-350.Sooo am Iheat treating @375 for 7 min or 340ish for 7 min? Anyone else out theretriedmonitoring internal temps? Should I consider preheating to 400? Anythoughts,suggestions,comments greatly appreciated. Dennis Higham from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 16 23:24:56 1996 Subject: RE: Success and a new project Question for Bruce re: ROD96I remember someone said something about gray blockson the stress graphs. I'm also experiencing this, what was thesolution? Great tool, thanks!!! I need to make a fix at my end (will work on a number of them shortly,beenbusy!). What you are seeing is the grouping box surrounding the radiobuttons on the data input page. I forgot to make them hidden and you areseeing the grey background color. Chris Bogart was good enough to sendmea hard copy from his printer so I could see, and it was obvious the secondI saw it. Glad you like the tool thus far. There may be a rework of the whoeprogramsomewhere down the road so you can use tapers based on something otherthan5 inch increments and have a bit more flexibility all around. Not sure ifI can find the time since it's not generating any cash flow for me and Ineed all the cash I can get these days. I will try to fix the bugs in thecurrent version ASAP, however. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 17 00:10:24 1996 Subject: recirculating tempering oven Please contact me at hihoslvr@teleport.com with your address so I cancontact you off line to get a sketch of the oven. Thank you. Ron from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 17 01:20:47 1996 Subject: Re: Success and a new project Hi Darryl,The rod is designed for a DT3. I have always designed for a DT, it is thetype of line that I have come to prefer. Bamboo has always responded welltothe user going up or down a size according to his preference. This is aslowtaper, if I want a fast taper I use my Dx series tapers.A.J. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 17 01:48:37 1996 Subject: Re: Oven temps Hi Dennis, It sounds to me like you need heavier wall pipe to act as a heat sink. Thetemps in my old oven never showed that rapid a fluctuation. A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 17 06:33:20 1996 Subject: Re: Success and a new project Hi Karl,Good thinking, it is indeed a 3wt. I prefer it with the heavier tip (asalways). I also left out that it is a 6.5ft design.A.J. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 17 08:31:28 1996 Subject: Re: South Bend Rods Reed, You mentioned Bob Corsetti and Sam Carlson as sources for bamboo blanks.Could you provide addresses and/or phone numbers? TIA, Russell LavigneAnachemrpo@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 17 10:00:04 1996 Subject: Re: Oven temps A.J. seez regarding those pesky heat-losses... :-) It sounds to me like you need heavier wall pipe to act as a heat sink. Thetemps in my old oven never showed that rapid a fluctuation. Also, what about creating a small door just large enough to get therod sections in and out rather than removing the whole end piece. It seems that once you remove the whole end, the heat has a rapidescape route. Just a thought... Mike - half baked - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 17 13:34:29 1996 Subject: Skinner Rods I asked a general question earlier this week regarding the maker of a rod Ipurchased at a garage sale whose name is Skinner. I cannot find his nameanywhere in the "literature" and ask anyone if they have run across thisname. The rod is circa 1948-50 (my estimate). Thanks in advance foranything anyone can contribute. I also built an LP gas-fired oven at little expense, for heat treatingstrips up to 4 ft. It requires a bit of copper flashing, some class Bchimney and a few inexpensive thermometers (also parts of a bunsenburner).It works well with little temp fluctuation, but insofar as it has openflames, requires constant attentiveness while in operation. Hope someone can help me with Skinner. Thomas O. Claflin, ProfessorDepartment of BiologyUniversity of Wisconsin-La CrosseLa Crosse, WI 54601TEL (608)785-8239FAX (608)785-6959 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 17 19:28:27 1996 Subject: Re: Skinner Rods There is a fly shop in Toronto that is very old, perhaps it was a housebrand many years ago. I think the shop was established in the thirties. JB I asked a general question earlier this week regarding the maker of a rodIpurchased at a garage sale whose name is Skinner. I cannot find his nameanywhere in the "literature" and ask anyone if they have run across thisname. The rod is circa 1948-50 (my estimate). Thanks in advance foranything anyone can contribute. I also built an LP gas-fired oven at little expense, for heat treatingstrips up to 4 ft. It requires a bit of copper flashing, some class Bchimney and a few inexpensive thermometers (also parts of a bunsenburner).It works well with little temp fluctuation, but insofar as it has openflames, requires constant attentiveness while in operation. Hope someone can help me with Skinner. Thomas O. Claflin, ProfessorDepartment of BiologyUniversity of Wisconsin-La CrosseLa Crosse, WI 54601TEL (608)785-8239FAX (608)785-6959 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 17 20:10:44 1996 Subject: Re: Oven temps Dennis,I guess you're heating at 340-345 degrees. My oven's a Wayne C. also. I'vehad the same drop in temp. that you have. I'm now trying to heat it up to400and having the temp drop to 355-360 and giving 10 min. to a side.I toodrilled a hole in the side for an oven thermometer. Remember that Rich.Tyreementioned that during slow heat over long periods the center sections ofyoursticks will darken(i.e.heat) more than the ends. Good luck,Hank Woolman. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 17 20:25:31 1996 Subject: Re: South Bend Rods You mentioned Bob Corsetti and Sam Carlson as sources for bambooblanks.Could you provide addresses and/or phone numbers? Russ,I didn't give the addresses because I'd given them before and I did't want it to seem like I was plugging them. What the hey... Bob Corsetti17 Massasoit Rd.Nashua, N.H. 03063Ph. (603)886-0411Fax (603)595-2458 C.W. "Sam" CarlsonRodmaker#971-Rt. 31/Box 322Greenville, N.H. 03048(603)878-1455 Best to send mail. Both honest men, Bob has a 3 day return policy. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 17 23:13:30 1996 Subject: L.P. Gas ???? / Oven temps L.P. GASJust to do a reality check on those that use or are thinking of using L.P.gas to fire an oven. As a Mechanical (Heating) Contractor I would throwoutthis caution (warning). When I started working on L.P. fired equipment myinsurance bill doubled. L.P. gas does NOT disperse into the atmosphere asnatural gas does - but rather it being heavier than air settles into lowpockets and can represent a explosive hazard. If you are intending on usingit either for flaming or heat treating consider doing it outdoors and alsoconsider storing cannisters outside as well. Oven tempsThe accuracy of oven temperatures is proprotional with dollars. the moreaccurate you want to control temps the more it will cost. On the ovendesignI advocate there a couple of factors that can improve temp accuracy andgetreasonably repeatable results. The first is the length of the mica stripheaters - the shorter - the more indifferance in cabinet tempature. Usingthe54" micas that I have used with a closed door you can track about a 6 - 7degree variation from end to end. Another varible is the on - off of thethermostat - the ones I use has a window of 7 degrees. With enough moneythese obsticles can be over come. OR You can place your strips in the oven just when the thermostat clicks off - flip strips end for end half way through the heat treating - resealing thedoor as quickly as possible. I think that the over all temperature variationwill be at a minimum. Earlier I mentioned that a thermostat can be adjusted (anticipation) toswitch off so that any over swing will bring cabinet temps to where youwant. I think that after a while a person making rods will set into a confortableset of rules - that window of tolerance that they feel comfortable with.Having just read the newest issue of The Planing Form - there is a shortabout the fellow that had a chance to mic several classic rods only to findthe the measurements varied. Disappointing perhaps but just a reminderthatin this life there will be variations. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 19 09:34:37 1996 Subject: Building during the summer just wondering how many of you out there continue to build during thesummermonths, and what is the maximum humidity considered acceptable by mostof you.any thoughts? Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 19 09:44:38 1996 Subject: Re: Homogenized? A.J. I don't think so - there is always that group who will "push the edge" of confromity. In some other words - the lunatic fringe. A numberof people in this group have tried things - just to see what happens. I think what we have seen is a great reduction in the trial and error learningcurve but an increase in the creativity area. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 19 10:08:59 1996 Subject: Re: Homogenized? I would like to throw out a topic for discussion in the group. With the advent of competent, comprehensive building manuals(don't evenhaveto read thanks to Wayne now). Readily available tools and supplies andnowfreely relayed information thanks to the group and Ron Barch (the PlaningForm). Are we destined to homogenize the rodbuilding craft? Will there be atimewhen new and different ideas are scorned before they are fairlyevaluated?This is not meant to be a criticism of any one point of view, merely atopicthat we can banter around.Personaly I wonder if we might end up with extremely well crafted rodsthattare all built with one taper theory(not a specific taper). It is alreadydogma that a good rod cannot be impregnated. This is patently false asany ofus who have experimented with surface impregnation has found out. A.J.Thramer Well, I think that there may be some uniformity of rods made by beginners,but the sort of person who wants to make his/her own rod from a big stickof Chinese grass is usually the type of person who has an active andinquiring mind. Once the basics of the process are well understood,experimentation is almost certain to follow. After all, one can't haveone's hands on a plane all the time, but one *is* compelled to think aboutrodbuilding most of the day once the bug has bit! At least that is myexcuse for my frequent bouts of vacant staring into space... A rod is a very personal thing and the taper will be different for everycasting style and taste. This is not to say that such things cannot bequantified, and that a "theory" of rod construction is impossible, I justthink that there will be a rather broad range of tapers which work,depending on who is casting them and under what conditions they are beingcast. It's quite possible that this range of tapers will not be a smoothcontinuum, but will have distinct changes at points. There is a LOT ofroom for experimentation here. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 19 11:26:26 1996 Subject: Re: Homogenized? A.J. I don't think so - there is always that group who will "push the edge" of confromity. In some other words - the lunatic fringe. A numberof people in this group have tried things - just to see what happens. I think what we have seen is a great reduction in the trial and error learningcurve but an increase in the creativity area. Chris I can assure you folks out there, Chris is no lunatic. But he does come upwith some very good ideas. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 19 16:38:07 1996 Subject: Re: TEST A.J.,Test received.Hank. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 19 16:46:26 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer Mark,I use a dehumidifier and an air cond. and try to keep the humidity below50%. I don't know whether this is enuf, too much or too little. It seems towork for me.Hank W. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 19 17:12:43 1996 Subject: Success and a new project Jim, Congrats and keep up the good work. I will look for a nice tooth pick-taper Regards, Frank from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 01:07:17 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer Hi Mark,The humidity seasons are reversed in the northwest corner, but we stillhave to contend with 8mo of 90-100%. If you think about it a bit your rodwill have to spend the time in the humidity at some point in its life. theability of varnish to keep out the moisture is `not that good. Anywoodworkerwho works in solid woods can tell you that there is no finish (perhapsdipping it in epoxy) that will keep the transfer of water to zero. I doubtthat the great factory rods such as Payne, Granger, Leonard, et al shuttherefactories down for the summer. This leads to two conclusions, they foundaway to defeat the effect of humidity or they thought it of no greatconsequence. My situation is somewhat easier to combat as the relativehumidity drops when the shop is heated. A tough thing to put up with in thesummer as is your situation.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 05:50:02 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer Mark,I use a dehumidifier and an air cond. and try to keep the humidity below50%. I don't know whether this is enuf, too much or too little. It seems towork for me.Hank W. Thanks Hank,It helps getting a general consensus from other builders on the max. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 06:05:52 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer Hi Mark,The humidity seasons are reversed in the northwest corner, but we stillhave to contend with 8mo of 90-100%. Thank you A.J.Along with the dehumidifier I'll try cranking up the heat a little when Iget to the 60% point. So far this year the max in my shop has only gone upto 47%, but with all the rain--- it won't be long.I did not realize that the varnish still allows some moisture to pass to thecane---- One more thing for me to ponder. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 08:19:05 1996 Subject: Wayne's Book Hey Wayne, Where can I get your book??? Sorry for the bandwith....tom from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 09:40:52 1996 Subject: Re: Homogenized? Iwould like to reply to A.J.'s "Homogenized" thread. I have to agree withChris, that if anything, we are heading in the opposite direction. At theCatskill gathering last year we saw so many different types of rods and somany new building ideas that it was impossible to absorb it all. Given thediversity of casting styles and fishing situations, no one taper design willever become standard. I would like to make the point, however, that muchofwhat we are learning today has been tried years ago. The fact is, that rodtapers have been thoroughly explored, as have 4 strip and 5 stripconstruction, hollow building, etc.,etc. Those craftsmen who did the workwere either bound by "codes of silence", or simply did not have a forumsuchas this one or 'The Planing Form" to exchange information. Relax A.J., thispot will continue to boil. from the lunatic fringe,Tom Smithwick from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 09:41:16 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer Mark, As A.J rightly points out, a varnish finish is not a complete moisturebarrier. Reacting to the seasonal variations in humidity, moisture willenter or leave the rod by the process of osmosis. The varnish will greatlyretard the variations, but not completely stop them. I do not know of anyfinish currently in use that is a complete moisture barrier. Possiblycomplete impregnation would work, but haven't you then only replaced theweight of the moisture with the weight of the plastic?The ultimate moisture content of your rod will have more to do with theaverage humidity in the closet where you store your rods than with thetimeof year when you built it. Follow the sensible precautions regarding A/C,etc. that others have mentioned and build your rods. TomSmithwick from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 09:48:18 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer Mark seez... just wondering how many of you out there continue to build during thesummermonths, and what is the maximum humidity considered acceptable bymost of you.any thoughts? I've been thinking about this also, especially in light of humidsummers we have here in St. Louis. However, I come to the thinking (well...most likely one of you folks mentioned this already, as Igenerally don't come up with too many original ideas!!! :-) that it might be a good thing to build your rods in the same time ofyear that they will most fished/exposed to the elements. I reallyfeel that there is no rod coating that will block ambient humidity. So if the rod is going to be fished primarily in the summer, I seeno real detriment to making the rods in the summer. It may dry outsome in the winter as the ambient humidity drops, but again I seethat as no detriment. But then I could be 'all wet'... :-) Mike - damp around the fringes - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 09:49:00 1996 Subject: Re: Success and a new project Jim, Congrats and keep up the good work. I will look for a nice tooth pick-taper Regards,en Frank Hello Frank, I tried to e-mail you but both messages were returned. Just wanted to letyou know that I tried your heat treat oven and like it. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 10:00:13 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer Mark, As A.J rightly points out, a varnish finish is not a complete moisturebarrier. Reacting to the seasonal variations in humidity, moisture willenter or leave the rod by the process of osmosis. ds. Thank you Tom, I appreciate the info. Take care, Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 10:06:23 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer Mark seez... just wondering how many of you out there continue to build during thesummermonths, and what is the maximum humidity considered acceptable bymost of you.any thoughts? I've been thinking about this also, especially in light of humidsummers we have here in St. Louis. However, I come to the thinking Thank you for the input Michael, it is appreciated. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 10:06:31 1996 Subject: Re: Homogenized? I think A.J. is correct in one sense, certain things tend tobecome 'gospel' that just ain't necessarily so. A.J.'s exampleof inpregnate rods is a good example. When I first started becoming interested in cane rods, I talked to a lot of peopleand almost universially they all said the same thing aboutinpregnated rods...they're heavier and slower. I came awayfully believing that. Is it true? I doubt it... As A.J. said, there are a lot makers experimenting with applyingfinishes under pressure. I'm sure there will always be folkswho will reject the current 'gospel' and try it themselves. One of the things I really like about this list is the factthat everyone seems so open to experimentation, and the list'swillingness to discuss the pro's and con's of the experiment.One feeds off the other, and conversations are fodder forfurther thought/experimentation. Mike - fodderhead - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 19 02:29:39 1996 Subject: Homogenized? I would like to throw out a topic for discussion in the group. With the advent of competent, comprehensive building manuals(don't evenhaveto read thanks to Wayne now). Readily available tools and supplies and nowfreely relayed information thanks to the group and Ron Barch (the PlaningForm). Are we destined to homogenize the rodbuilding craft? Will there be a timewhen new and different ideas are scorned before they are fairlyevaluated?This is not meant to be a criticism of any one point of view, merely atopicthat we can banter around.Personaly I wonder if we might end up with extremely well crafted rodsthattare all built with one taper theory(not a specific taper). It is alreadydogma that a good rod cannot be impregnated. This is patently false as anyofus who have experimented with surface impregnation has found out. A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 10:36:54 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer Mark Brown wrote: just wondering how many of you out there continue to build during thesummermonths, and what is the maximum humidity considered acceptable bymost of you.any thoughts? Mark I live in Florida, so humidity is a constant problem for me here, I havecome to agree, with A.J.Thramer, that you have to expect some moisture reentry.Keeping that in mind, I still don't work on rods unless the humidity is less that50%. I do this with dehumidifiers and air conditioning. I also use products thatabsorb moisture. I put these products in the bottom PVC tubes when I store myblanks, it keeps the humidity at less than 20%. I have found a new product that isdustless and seems to be better than silica gel. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 12:41:27 1996 Subject: South Bend Rods Thanks to all of you that responded to my question about South Bend rods.Now I just have to sort through all of the information and make a decision.At least now I'm much more informed and should be in a better position tomake a good one! Thanks again,--------------------John JohnsonAtlanta, GAjjohnson@netime.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 13:56:31 1996 Subject: Mounting Ferrules I am nearing the ferrule mounting stage with my first rod. Is it feasibletoprepare the ferrule stations by hand since I am not quite ready to invest inalathe at this point. I would appreciate receiving any tips, tool suggestionsoradvice on hand mounting. Or,is the answer, "bite the bullet and eitheracquirea lathe or gain access to one". Regards, Karl Almquist from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 15:14:23 1996 Subject: RE: Mounting Ferrules I am nearing the ferrule mounting stage with my first rod. Is itfeasible toprepare the ferrule stations by hand since I am not quite ready toinvest in alathe at this point. I would appreciate receiving any tips, toolsuggestions oradvice on hand mounting. Or,is the answer, "bite the bullet and eitheracquirea lathe or gain access to one". Regards, Karl Almquist I've been making split cane rods for a year, and I don't own a lathe.I just use a file and carefully file down the bamboo to fit. If youlightlypress the ferrule on so that it doesn't get jammed, and remove it, you can see a little black spot or spots where the inside of the ferrulerubs the blank. File off the little black spot(s) and repeat until the ferrule isseated. Glue it on using any good epoxy, and you are set. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 17:46:53 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer In a message dated 96-05-20 07:02:04 EDT, you write: Thank you A.J.Along with the dehumidifier I'll try cranking up the heat a little when Iget to the 60% point. So far this year the max in my shop has only gone upto 47%, but with all the rain--- it won't be long.I did not realize that the varnish still allows some moisture to pass tothecane---- One more thing for me to ponder. Mark Hello Mark:2-3 mos ago there was a thread about this. Dick Schiller, a list member inKy had an article from an old issue of Fine Woodworker (I think) that wasabit of an eye opener for me. Here is a replay - take it for what its worth,as I am simply passing along what was passed to me. START:Here is a bit of information concerning finishes. Dick Schiller, a newmember to this list and a new rod maker did a bit of research on thesubjectof finishes. Here is what he sent concerning moisture excludingeffectiveness: "There are two types of water to worry about. One is the vapor type that will penetrate even the smallest intermolecular spaces. The other is gross water that will bead up on a rod or any tough surface. In order of moisture excluding effectiveness, from a study I read a fewweeksago here is the list from best to worst. I am leaving out some items thatwewould never use on a rod anyway! 1. Melted parrafin 95% effective2. Two part Epoxy 91% (3coats) 54% (1coat)3. Two part polyurethane gloss varnish 66% (3coat) 0 (Yes zero, 1 coat) (apparently it just fills pores and penetrates at only one coat)4. Epoxy gloss varnish 50% (3 coat) 3% (1 coat)5. Orange shellac 46% (3coat) 2% (1 coat) water can leave marks onshellac6. Polyurethane varnish and Alkyd satin varnish 41% (3coat) 8% (1 coat)7. Phenolic Tung floor sealer -1% (yes, it absorbs water, one coat) 35% 3 coats8. Soya alkyd phenolic/tung gloss spar varnish 30% (3coats) 0 (one coat)9. Acrylic gloss latex varnish 10% (3coats) -1% (1coat)10. Tung oil 2% (3coats) -1% (1 coat)11. Linseed oil 0% (3coats) -5 (1coat) (yes it really absorbs water since it penetrates and forms no coat in pores. It does not polymerize well.12. Furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0% no matter how may coats! END: A Mr. Nat Ulsan, who built bamboo rods into the 70's, was reported to havesimply used heated linseed oil - and the last location of his rod buildingbusiness was Miami, Fla. Had several discussions with Dick about this, and we came to someconclusions, based on the report: Moisture excluding effectiveness means how much the finish slows downtheabsorption of moisture. Therefore, all of the finishes listed will notprevent mositure from achieving whatever the ambient condition might be,given enough time. My experience has been that when a rod is completed, and if the ferrulesarequite 'snug', it is just a matter of time before they will have to be workedover again no matter how much they are cleaned, as they tighten up toomuchto properly seat. This deals with rods that are not used daily but were setaside for a few weeks after completion - I'm not sure how new rods, useddaily, would react. I've assumed that means the bamboo has taken onatmospheric moisture, swelled a bit and tightened up the ferrules. May bewrong, but do not know what else to make of it. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 17:59:38 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer Mark: The only real problem I have found building in the Summer is youhave to be carefull when you apply the finish. I have found no problems in planing and glueing during the heat and humidity. But I always wait forthe low humidity days to apply finish - otherwise the stuff (varnish) staystacky Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 22:57:27 1996 Subject: Dessicant Jonathan, OK spill the beans, what is this new dessicant your workingwith.The cruelty of teasing us without giving specifics.My father uses a dehumidifying device called a 'Goldenrod' to keep theinterior of his airplane dried out so the electronics don't go buggy. It iselectrically powered. Has anyone used one of these to keep the blanksdriedout?A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 20 22:57:46 1996 Subject: Re: Mounting Ferrules Hi Karl,A lathe will make the rod faster and easier to build but is my no meansneccessary to make a good rods. You simply have to make up for it by goingslowly and checking the intergrity of the station often.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 21 06:05:55 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer I live in Florida, so humidity is a constant problem for me here, I havecome to agree, with A.J.Thramer, that you have to expect some moisture reentry.Keeping that in mind, I still don't work on rods unless the humidity is less that50%. I Thanks for the input Jonathan, what have you found that works better thansilica gel? Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 21 06:29:28 1996 Subject: Re: Homogenized? In a message dated 96-05-20 11:07:33 EDT, you write: I think A.J. is correct in one sense, certain things tend tobecome 'gospel' that just ain't necessarily so. A.J.'s exampleof inpregnate rods is a good example. When I first started becoming interested in cane rods, I talked to a lot of peopleand almost universially they all said the same thing aboutinpregnated rods...they're heavier and slower. I came awayfully believing that. Is it true? I doubt it... As A.J. said, there are a lot makers experimenting with applyingfinishes under pressure. I'm sure there will always be folkswho will reject the current 'gospel' and try it themselves. One of the things I really like about this list is the factthat everyone seems so open to experimentation, and the list'swillingness to discuss the pro's and con's of the experiment.One feeds off the other, and conversations are fodder forfurther thought/experimentation. Mike - fodderhead - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Hey Mike:The fodder into this thread we go the more happy to see that I'm not theonlyloonytic. Cheers Mike, this list is greatRichard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 21 06:30:48 1996 Subject: Re: Building during the summer In a message dated 96-05-20 11:35:17 EDT, you write: keeps the humidity at less than 20%. I have found a new product that isdustless and seems to be better than silica gel. Hello Jon:I would appreciate hearing more about the drying agent you mentioned. Whatit is, source, downsides, etc. Thanks and Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 21 06:32:35 1996 Subject: Re: Mounting Ferrules In a message dated 96-05-20 14:54:03 EDT, you write: I am nearing the ferrule mounting stage with my first rod. Is it feasibletoprepare the ferrule stations by hand since I am not quite ready to investinalathe at this point. I would appreciate receiving any tips, toolsuggestionsoradvice on hand mounting. Or,is the answer, "bite the bullet and eitheracquirea lathe or gain access to one". Regards, Karl Almquist Hello Karl:I built three 5-sided rods and had to hand-fit some ferrules. An 8" filewasused and it actually worked out ok. The ferrules were nonserrated, so I hadto accept what was avail in size, and fortunately, they were a bitoversized.So, corners were removed but a thin strip of original surface remainedbetween filing stations as a thin, dark line. You might find this areasonable strategy, going to a slight oversize on ferrule. The key is toinsure each point received exactly the same filing stroke as the one beforeit. So, suggest you go around the section many times, taking a little offeach time and insuring each receives the same treatment as the last. Inother words, when filing a stroke, try to use the very same motion,pressure,file angle etc from point to point. As the desired diameter is beingreached, you might switch to a jeweler's file to approach a good fitcautiously. Good luck,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 21 06:40:33 1996 Subject: building during the summer Thanks to everyone for all the input on my question "building during thesummer", all the input was appreciated. A big thanks to Richard Tyree forthe article from fINE WOODWORKER, it was a real eye opener. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 21 07:07:52 1996 Subject: Re: Dessicant Sorry, forgot what kind of crowd this was. They can Be found at this address on the web at: http://members.aol.com/evrdri/index.html Or: Evr-dryP.O. Box 1832Punta Gorda, FL 33951 They claim that the product drys better than silica gel, and it seems to, but I can't document that. The product is small pellets and it is almost dustless, so it is much easier and nicer to use then silica gel. I put about 4oz of the stuff in a gallon zip lock bag, within 10 min the humidity went from 54% to less than 20%. Not a scientific test perhaps but something that would be similar to the rod tube. I am going to buy some of this stuff in bulk, if anyone is interested in doing that with me let me know by E-Mail. I'll get a price and get back to those that respond. And by the way, it is renewable through heating. Jonathan from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 21 09:42:38 1996 Subject: RE: Homogenized Here's a message from Don Andersen. The LISTPROC seems to havingsome problems with his address... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= --From: dmandersen@ccinet.ab.ca (Don Andersen)--Subject: Homogenized I doubt it. While it would be possible if technology stood still for all ofus to construct rods in the same fashion, I believe that rod makers are atheart "tinkerers" and will never quit trying things to get the tools andtechniques prefected that suit them. Certainly books, vidoes, meetingsetc.will reduce the wrong turns and dead ends that we make in the quest forthe"prefect rod", somebody will still attempt a newtechnique/tool/technology.As far as tapers - they are personal. They are what we present to theworldas our concepts of how a fly rod should cast. We hope that others may seethem the same way trudging to our doors bringing cash and fame, but ifnotwho cares. Most of us build rods to suit ourselves and are not driven to theeveryman's concept of rod tapers in the hope of feeding our families. Regards, Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 21 09:43:11 1996 Subject: Tempering Ovens - - HELP Another message from Don... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= --From: dmandersen@ccinet.ab.ca (Don Andersen)--Subject: Tempering Ovens - - HELP To all, My machine had an electronic spasm and ate things. One of which was thelongnote I wrote to the list on the recirculating tempering oven. I hod hoped toenclosed a copy of the note to those that asked for drawings.If anyone had downloaded/saved the note, please forward it back to me.Drawings are done. If note returns today, I should get all mailed by theweekend. Regards, Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 21 16:40:11 1996 Subject: RE: Short casts (a definition offered) =The shortlived thread on shooting line set my three remaining braincells=throbbing. I find that in many fishing situations, even on medium size=rivers, I'm casting a very short line. Working pockets with a dry fly while =wading upstream, I might have only two feet of line beyond the rod tip. When=fishing small streamers for smallmouths at my favorite spillway, Imight=cast 45' and then turn and cast 20'. Also, how much line can I shoot with no=false-casting; always a factor when working wet flies in close before=picking up.==So I offer the following table of what is for this Eastern angler, short=line casting. I'll try to get measurements of the performance of some ofmy =favorite rods this weekend. I'm supposing a 10' leader. looks like we might get a little info on this, after all. I've been experimenting, but I think what I'll do is use about 3 ft. of leader, just to protect my fly line. Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu TKirkpat@CLW.UNISYSGSG.COM from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 21 20:43:27 1996 Subject: Lathe chuck Richard Tyree commented on havibg to hand file a ferrule seat for a 5sider. Engineers, especially semi retired ones, are netoriously lazy. I took what Ithought the easy way out by making a five jawed chuck from 1" aluminumrod.Drilled a half inch hole through the center while the section of rao waschucked in the lathe's thre jaw chuck. Indexed 5 equally spaced pointsaroundthe circumference. Drilled and taped these locations for cap screws. Endsofscrews also have to be turned down to bring them close enough together tograspa tip section of a rod. Just put the five jawed chuck back in the three jaw,insert the rod to be turned down for a ferrule, tighten the set screws andyou're in business. Probably this turned out to be a standard engineering solution in that Icouldhave seated several ferrules by hand in the time it took to make the chuckbuta good little lathe project and as much fun as building the rod itself. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 21 22:23:28 1996 Subject: Re: ferrules Although I do have a lathe, it seems to me to be just as easy to adjust ferrules by hand. First the ferrule section of cane is "painted" with a black marking pen. Next the cane section is "gripped" in the jaws of a lathe chuck or in an ordinary vise. Then with careful filing, the corners can be accurately reduced because the contrasting black flats (black because of the magic-marker) serve as a gauge of symmetry and quantity of cane removed. Some useful pointers include to go slowly with a very fine textured file and constantly check that an equal portion is removed evenly and uniformly from each corner until the ferrule seats properly. In otherwords the black corners are removed exposing clean cane.Incidentally, placing and inserting the ferrule slowly and rolling it homewill leave black residue marks that show high spots on the clean cane makingthis task easier still. On another topic touched on earlier when using a slightly largerferrule, where the corners do not need to be removed: you can 2-ton epoxy toothpicks or thin pieces of cane to the flats. Then using a lathe, the bulky excess wood can be reduced with a file to a round dowel-like ferrule station with less "slop" (however, don't make the fit too tight).The credit for both tricks goes to a first class gentleman in Detroit named Bill Waara who has shared so many of these kind of secrets. If you go the Grayling barbecue you will likely meet and be charmed by him. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 01:05:55 1996 Subject: Holden's Book Has anyone ever read or seen Holden's book "The Idyl of the Split Bamboo"?If so would it be worth the expense of aquiring? It is not inexpensive.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 08:10:54 1996 Subject: Re: Lathe chuck In a message dated 96-05-21 21:37:04 EDT, you write: Engineers, especially semi retired ones, are netoriously lazy. I took whatIthought the easy way out by making a five jawed chuck from 1" aluminumrod.Drilled a half inch hole through the center while the section of rao waschucked in the lathe's thre jaw chuck. Indexed 5 equally spaced points.... Lets hear a cheer for engineers, especially helpful the ones! ThanksGeorge,sounds like a very good way to deal with it. Amazing how in the bambooworksome of the simplest solutions are the best. Now to find a piece of 1"aluminum rod. One question: are there any peculiarities to tappingaluminum?Have mininum experience with tapping, threading, etc., but with steel andbrass only. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 09:23:07 1996 Subject: Re: Lathe chuck George seez... Engineers, especially semi retired ones, are netoriously lazy. I took whatIthought the easy way out by making a five jawed chuck from 1" aluminumrod.Drilled a half inch hole through the center while the section of rao waschucked in the lathe's thre jaw chuck. Indexed 5 equally spaced pointsaroundthe circumference. Drilled and taped these locations for cap screws. Good idea!!! I've been trying to come up with decent chucking solution 5, for the six siders. Just put the five jawed chuck back in the three jaw, insert the rod to beturned down for a ferrule, tighten the set screws and you're in business. George, is tape sufficient to keep the set screws from marring the rodsurface, or is something more substantial required? Also, is it any problem centering? Mike - slightly out-of-round - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 11:28:59 1996 Subject: A couple of answers The only thing I've noticed about threading aluminum is the tap tends togumup. Frequent reversing seems to cure this. Screws do mar the cane a bit, but nothing that cant be removed with alittlejudicious work with a turned scraper. I've used no tape but that mighteliminate the marring as it doesn't take much pressure on the screws. Mysolution was a bit more crude. I made sure the presure points were closeenoughto the ferrule that they would be covered with winding. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 11:42:37 1996 Subject: Discover article on bamboo There is an interesting article in the June issue of DISCOVERY magazineaboutusing bamboo as a building material instead of bricks, concrete, steel.... Russ LavigneAnachemrpo@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 13:05:27 1996 Subject: Bamboo Die-off? Here is a question for the bamboo experts on the list.I read in a National Geographic article that bambooplants periodically go to seed and die off. What isunusual about this is that the same species doesthis everywhere world wide. Does our belovedTonkin cane do this also? If it does, when are wedue for the next die off? Should I be laying in asupply of Tonkin? Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 13:21:56 1996 Subject: Mounting Ferrules Hi Karl, I am nearing the ferrule mounting stage with my first rod. Is itfeasibletoprepare the ferrule stations by hand since I am not quite ready to investinalathe at this point. I would appreciate receiving any tips, toolsuggestions oradvice on hand mounting. Or,is the answer, "bite the bullet and eitheracquirea lathe or gain access to one". I build bamboo flyrods for over 9 years now. I am a proud owner of a verynicelathe, but when it comes to mounting ferrules I touch it. I did so once andtheresult was not satisfying. The only tools I need is some masking tape, ablackfelt pen, a file, a few strips of fine grit sandpaper (240), some acetoneandsome epoxy glue. I use some masking tape to protect the blank where no filing is necessary.NextI blacken (felt pen) the portion to be filed. After the ink is dry I start tofile off some bamboo off the corners using even strokes along every side,sixsides. Then I check the fit and repeat the aforementioned procedure until avery tight fit. Next I carefully use the sandpaper to get the fit a bit more"loose". I take care to let the lower end to feather out. All the filing will becovered ferrule parts using not too much power. The felt pen marks help you to filethebamboo as cylindrical as possible. All this sounds more complicated than it is, but that's the way I do it anditworked well for me. Regards, Frank Neunemann from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 13:39:41 1996 Subject: Re: Discover article on bamboo Russ seez... There is an interesting article in the June issue of DISCOVERY magazineaboutusing bamboo as a building material instead of bricks, concrete, steel.... Geez...I just can't imagine a flyrod made outof BRICKS or CONCRETE!!! :-) Mike - trying to figure out how to plane a brick - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 14:37:31 1996 Subject: Re: Discover article on bamboo At 13:33 5/22/96 CDT, you wrote:Russ seez... There is an interesting article in the June issue of DISCOVERY magazineaboutusing bamboo as a building material instead of bricks, concrete, steel.... Geez...I just can't imagine a flyrod made outof BRICKS or CONCRETE!!! :-) Mike - trying to figure out how to plane a brick - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Mike,I think they use something called a "block plane". :-)Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 15:06:17 1996 Subject: Epoxy for Ferrules My favorite hardware places near home do not have the Devcon 2-Tonepoxy formy ferrule work. I did see plenty of Duro and Loctite brand products.Anyonehave an alternate choice that works OK ??? Karl Hube from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 15:29:02 1996 Subject: Re: Discover article on bamboo Concrete flyrods are very fast in action, however rollcasting is difficult and the weight can be distracting. Mac-------------Original Text from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu (Michael Biondo), on 5/22/96 11:35 AM:Russ seez... There is an interesting article in the June issue of DISCOVERY magazine aboutusing bamboo as a building material instead of bricks, concrete, steel.... Geez...I just can't imagine a flyrod made outof BRICKS or CONCRETE!!! :-) Mike - trying to figure out how to plane a brick - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 16:27:41 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo Die-off? In a message dated 96-05-22 13:58:18 EDT, you write: Here is a question for the bamboo experts on the list.I read in a National Geographic article that bambooplants periodically go to seed and die off. What isunusual about this is that the same species doesthis everywhere world wide. Does our belovedTonkin cane do this also? If it does, when are wedue for the next die off? Should I be laying in asupply of Tonkin? Darryl Hayashida Hello Darryl:As the general at Camp Swampy says of Beetle Bailey, "what now"? Somthingelse to worry about - s nothing sacred? actually a very valid concernuntilwe get some answeres. Mr. Demarest will be at the TBBBQ. Hope he hassomereassurances. If not, its my guess that he had better have his order bookwith him. How long does it take the crop to regenerate? Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 16:38:23 1996 Subject: RE: Bamboo Die-off? Here is a question for the bamboo experts on the list.I read in a National Geographic article that bambooplants periodically go to seed and die off. What isunusual about this is that the same species doesthis everywhere world wide. Does our belovedTonkin cane do this also? If it does, when are wedue for the next die off? Should I be laying in asupply of Tonkin? Darryl Hayashida Hello Darryl:As the general at Camp Swampy says of Beetle Bailey, "what now"? Somthingelse to worry about - s nothing sacred? actually a very valid concernuntilwe get some answeres. Mr. Demarest will be at the TBBBQ. Hope he hassomereassurances. If not, its my guess that he had better have his orderbookwith him. How long does it take the crop to regenerate? Regards,Richard Tyree I think I recall the article saying it took 2 to 3 years for a plant toget toharvestable size. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 18:05:33 1996 Subject: Tapping Aluminum (was re: lathe chuck) Richard wrote: Lets hear a cheer for engineers, especially helpful the ones! Thanks George, sounds like a very good way to deal with it. Amazinghow in the bamboo work some of the simplest solutions are the best. Now to find a piece of 1" aluminum rod. One question: are there anypeculiarities to tapping aluminum?Have mininum experience with tapping, threading, etc., but with steelandbrass only. There are aluminum threading compounds (lubricants) available that make the tap go through very smoothly. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 21:45:16 1996 Subject: Re: Tapping Aluminum (was re: lathe chuck) Hi All,I have found that beeswax is superior to most of the commecialaluminumtapping fluids avaiable.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 22:41:45 1996 Subject: Re: Holden's Book rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu wrote: Has anyone ever read or seen Holden's book "The Idyl of the SplitBamboo"?If so would it be worth the expense of aquiring? It is not inexpensive.Jim Jim:The "Idyl of the Split Bamboo" is not a book that would be of much value to a current rod builder because so much of it is outdated, yet as a source of information about early 20th century rod building it is well worth your time. It may not be too easy to find a copy, although some book dealers I know have had or do have copies. I think Jim Adams of Adams Books in Berkley has a copy. The book normally sells for $200-$00 depending on condition. Incidentally, as a matter of interest, when I was Curator of the International Fly Fishing Center, a fellow rod builder, Bob Juola of Boise Idaho donated a copy of the book to the IFFC, The handwritten inscription on the flyleaf read "To our good friend Everett Garrison from Harry and Elsie Darby". Also a curious thing about some of the first edition run is a misprint on the cover. My own copy of the book lists on the spine the title and the author's name "George Parker Holden", but the front cover shows the title and the authors name as "Dixie Carrol" , fishing writer who published a book at the same time with the same publisher called "Just Fishing" My recommendation if you can afford it it is well worth having the book; if you can't afford it you have not lost much since many other books and articles cover the same information as well or better. Ralph Moon from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 22:42:22 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo Die-off? Harold Demarest talked about this at the Merrit meeting. I think he said itoccurs every 75 - 100 year. Last event was in the 1920's ? In a message dated 96-05-22 13:58:18 EDT, you write: Here is a question for the bamboo experts on the list.I read in a National Geographic article that bambooplants periodically go to seed and die off. What isunusual about this is that the same species doesthis everywhere world wide. Does our belovedTonkin cane do this also? If it does, when are wedue for the next die off? Should I be laying in asupply of Tonkin? Darryl Hayashida Hello Darryl:As the general at Camp Swampy says of Beetle Bailey, "what now"? Somthingelse to worry about - s nothing sacred? actually a very valid concernuntilwe get some answeres. Mr. Demarest will be at the TBBBQ. Hope he hassomereassurances. If not, its my guess that he had better have his order bookwith him. How long does it take the crop to regenerate? Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 22:48:05 1996 Subject: Re: Tapping Aluminum (was re: lathe chuck) In a message dated 96-05-22 19:03:20 EDT, you write: There are aluminum threading compounds (lubricants) available that make the tap go through very smoothly. Thanks Larry. Will check it out at local machine supply store. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 22 22:48:53 1996 Subject: Re: Discover article on bamboo In a message dated 96-05-22 16:23:03 EDT, you write: Geez...I just can't imagine a flyrod made outof BRICKS or CONCRETE!!! :-) Mike - trying to figure out how to plane a brick - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Concrete flyrods are very fast in action, however rollcasting is difficult and the weight can be distracting. Mac Does this mean that we must also use concrete waders? :>[RT from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 23 02:26:05 1996 Subject: Re: Epoxy for Ferrules Karl,A short brief message: ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES. Don't EVEN ask how Iknow.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 23 06:15:06 1996 Subject: Re: Epoxy for Ferrules Karl,A short brief message: ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES. Don't EVEN ask how Iknow.A.J.Thramer ============================================================================= A.J.______ Thanks for the help. Are you using straight "2-Ton" or are youusing the mix of Devcon 5-Minute and 2-Ton that Garrison decribed in hiswork ?? Karl Hube from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 23 06:15:17 1996 Subject: Re: Epoxy for Ferrules Karl,A short brief message: ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES. Don't EVEN ask how Iknow.A.J.Thramer Give A.J. your complete trust on this one, Karl. I know how he knows.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 23 09:16:32 1996 Subject: Re: Holden's Book Dr Holden authored another book "Streamcraft" - it is a look back at theoutdoor life of the 20's - I found it more enjoyable than the "Idyl" becauseit reminds me of the stories that my father told of his earlier fishingdays.How they would ride the train north to Baldwin from Newaygo - gettingoff atthe railroad bridge for a day of fishing the PM. As for the 'Idyl' it is historic for giving the information on rod makingof the time - but has little if any current advice - as you advance in thehobby it is a fitting book to fill out the library with. Luis Marden has toldme that that is the book he used when he make his first fly rod back in1943.Dr. Holden did switch from 1/64 accuracy to .001" in his later work andevendocumented it in a report to the New Your Anglers Club before his death. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 23 09:54:29 1996 Subject: RE: Bamboo Die-off? So it's possible this could happen in five years. I think I'll startslowly putting away a culm or two until I have a two or three year supply.So far I have used 5 culms in a year, so my garage rafters will begetting full. Darryl Hayashida Harold Demarest talked about this at the Merrit meeting. I think hesaid itoccurs every 75 - 100 year. Last event was in the 1920's ? In a message dated 96-05-22 13:58:18 EDT, you write: Here is a question for the bamboo experts on the list.I read in a National Geographic article that bambooplants periodically go to seed and die off. What isunusual about this is that the same species doesthis everywhere world wide. Does our belovedTonkin cane do this also? If it does, when are wedue for the next die off? Should I be laying in asupply of Tonkin? Darryl Hayashida Hello Darryl:As the general at Camp Swampy says of Beetle Bailey, "what now"? Somthingelse to worry about - s nothing sacred? actually a very valid concernuntilwe get some answeres. Mr. Demarest will be at the TBBBQ. Hope he hassomereassurances. If not, its my guess that he had better have his order bookwith him. How long does it take the crop to regenerate? Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 23 11:20:40 1996 Subject: Re: Holden's Book At 10:05 5/23/96 -0400, you wrote:Dr Holden authored another book "Streamcraft" - it is a look back attheoutdoor life of the 20's - I found it more enjoyable than the "Idyl"becauseit reminds me of the stories that my father told of his earlier fishingdays.How they would ride the train north to Baldwin from Newaygo - gettingoff atthe railroad bridge for a day of fishing the PM. As for the 'Idyl' it is historic for giving the information on rod makingof the time - but has little if any current advice - as you advance in thehobby it is a fitting book to fill out the library with. Luis Marden has toldme that that is the book he used when he make his first fly rod back in1943.Dr. Holden did switch from 1/64 accuracy to .001" in his later work andevendocumented it in a report to the New Your Anglers Club before his death. Wayne Thanks Wayne,The advice you and Ralph Moon give me is always on the mark. I guess mymoney would be better spent on more tools and supplies. "Book Learnin"canonly take you so far, and then it's time to get your hands dirty.My dad also used to tell stories about when he was a young single man, andhow he and other deer hunters would ride railroad flat cars from GrandRapids up to the Baldin area and set up camp for the season.The first bamboo rod that I actually completed is a spinning rod that Ipresented to my dad on his birthday two years ago. He doesn't fly fish. Imade it on a one off basis and used full length wooden planing forms. I didjust about everything wrong you could do and still have it come out right. Ialso had a lot of help from a friend who builds graphite fly rods. It is nota cosmetic masterpiece, but it is nice and straight with tight glue linesand a nice balance. He shows it off to anyone he can and it is his rod ofchoice for serious fishing. He takes very good care of it, and when not inuse it is displayed above all the other trophies he has collected. I guessthat makes it the perfect rod.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 23 12:04:23 1996 Subject: RE: Holden's Book The first bamboo rod that I actually completed is a spinning rod that Ipresented to my dad on his birthday two years ago. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who has made a bamboospinning rod recently. I made one for my mother last year. Shedoesn't fly fish either. It's amazing the questions she gets onthe stream when people see it. The only problem is when theyfind out what I have to charge to make one they usually just laugh. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 23 12:04:23 1996 Subject: RE: Holden's Book The first bamboo rod that I actually completed is a spinning rod that Ipresented to my dad on his birthday two years ago. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who has made a bamboospinning rod recently. I made one for my mother last year. Shedoesn't fly fish either. It's amazing the questions she gets onthe stream when people see it. The only problem is when theyfind out what I have to charge to make one they usually just laugh. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 23 16:07:46 1996 Subject: Re: Lathe chuck At 08:59 PM 5/21/96 -0500, you wrote: Probably this turned out to be a standard engineering solution in that Icouldhave seated several ferrules by hand in the time it took to make thechuck buta good little lathe project and as much fun as building the rod itself. This reminds me of the time my wife asked me what type of things did Imakeon my lathe. She gave me a strange look when I told her that I mostlymadeattachments and fixtures for the lathe. :-) See ya,--------------------John JohnsonAtlanta, GAjjohnson@netime.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 23 20:50:36 1996 Subject: New Source for Planning forms. I have run across a new source for *high* quality planning forms, Ithought ya'all might be interested. Here is the text for Jeff Wagner's Planning Forms:---------------- Now Available - High Precision Planing Forms These forms are the only readily available forms that do not require any 'tuning' or tweaking -- guaranteed to work perfectly right out of the box. They are 76 inches long, allowing you to plane a one piece 6 foot rod withno strip slipping necessary. Manufactured from the highest quality heat treated and stress relievedsteel, *all* surfaces are precision surface ground, including the bevels. Thereare no burrs, tool marks, side to side 'step', etc. Push-pull system with oversize precision alignment pins and hex headbolts to facilitate fast adjustment with a ratchet wrench without having tofumble with an allen key. Specifications:Slope .001" per foot.15 adjustment stations on 5" centersBevel depths Tip .013-.083"Butt .046-.116Thickness variation, side to side, top to bottom typically less than .00003"Cost $750+shipping Your satisfaction is guaranteed. If upon your inspection you are not completely satisfied, return them for a full refund, no questions asked. Contact Jeff Wagner at (216)845-4415 7am-9pm EST ------------------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 10:46:01 1996 Subject: RE: New Source for Planing forms. Wow, sounds good, and I'm sure the extra precision is worth it,but $750 is more than I spent total on all my tools for rodmakingcombined including the steel forms from Colorado Bootstrap Co. Now Available - High Precision Planing Forms These forms are the only readily available forms that do not requireany 'tuning' or tweaking -- guaranteed to work perfectly right out of thebox. They are 76 inches long, allowing you to plane a one piece 6 foot rodwith no strip slipping necessary. Cost $750+shipping Your satisfaction is guaranteed. If upon your inspection you are not completely satisfied, return them for a full refund, no questionsasked. Contact Jeff Wagner at (216)845-4415 7am-9pm EST ------------------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 11:41:31 1996 Subject: A little heat treating info I have a little information on heat treating I would like to share. Itseems to back up my assumption that heat treating is far more thansimplydriving off moisture and that some irreversable changes occur. I'll try tofind more details and citations later. The following is from Ray Young of the University of Wisconson: Mr. Conner: I have your enquiry related to heat treatment. I have someknowledge of the effects of heat treatment on wood and wood fibers butnonespecifically for bamboo; but the concepts should be equally applicable. The stiffening and dimensional stabilizing effects of heat treatment oflignocellulosic materials appears to be related to breakdown of thehemicelluloses (low molecular weight polysacharrides) in wood andconversion to furfural like adhesives which then crosslink the cell wallstructure of the fibers and wood cells. There are patents on the use ofsteam treatment for improvement of the dimensional stability of woodfibers. Although I have not seen data comparing the effects oftemperature, my guess would be that the higher temperature treatmentwouldlead to a greater stiffening effect. Hope this is useful. Best Regards, Ray Young Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 12:04:04 1996 Subject: RE: A little heat treating info The stiffening and dimensional stabilizing effects of heat treatment oflignocellulosic materials appears to be related to breakdown of thehemicelluloses (low molecular weight polysacharrides) in wood andconversion to furfural like adhesives which then crosslink the cell wallstructure of the fibers and wood cells. So we turn the sugars in the sap into caramel by heating it. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 12:05:36 1996 Subject: Re: Holden's Book In a message dated 96-05-23 12:14:39 EDT, you write: The first bamboo rod that I actually completed is a spinning rod that Ipresented to my dad on his birthday two years ago. He doesn't fly fish. Imade it on a one off basis and used full length wooden planing forms. Ididjust about everything wrong you could do and still have it come out right.Ialso had a lot of help from a friend who builds graphite fly rods. It is nota cosmetic masterpiece, but it is nice and straight with tight glue linesand a nice balance. He shows it off to anyone he can and it is his rod ofchoice for serious fishing. He takes very good care of it, and when not inuse it is displayed above all the other trophies he has collected. I guessthat makes it the perfect rod.Jim Hello Jim: May I add $0.02 worth? At last someone with a greatdefinitionof a perfect bamboo rod. Sounds like a lot of us could take a lesson or two from you. Best Regards,Richard Tyree Ps - any chance you are to be at TTBBBQ? and if so could you borrow yourdad's rod for viewing - I would like to cast w/it - agree that spinning rodsare also enjoyable to build from bamboo. My son has a pop of the Orvis 5'mod that he (and his young'uns) really enjoy. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 12:08:20 1996 Subject: Finish under the grip? I'm finishing out a blank that I picked up from Len Codella, and I have whatis probably a dumb question. I have looked in Mike Sinclair's restorationbook and Garrison/Carmichael and I find no reference to my question: Is there no need to finish the cane that is under the grip with even onecoatof varnish or such? Also, before inscribing the rod with india ink, should there a coat ofvarnish on the blank to prevent bleeding or can I write right on the cane? Thank you all and pardon for my naivete. Russ Lavigne Anachemrpo@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 12:25:56 1996 Subject: RE: Finish under the grip? Is there no need to finish the cane that is under the grip with evenone coatof varnish or such? I put just as much finish under the handle as on the rest of the rod,andalso on the end grain, because I tend to accidentally dip the reel endof my rod into the water when I bend over to release a fish. I'm surethe reel seat isn't water proof, and I wouldn't want water to get intothe bamboo through there. Also, before inscribing the rod with india ink, should there a coat ofvarnish on the blank to prevent bleeding or can I write right on thecane? This depends on the type of pen you are using. For me, I haven't foundan ink that sticks to the tung oil finish I use, so I have to writedirectlyon the bamboo. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 12:54:53 1996 Subject: Re: A little heat treating info There are patents on the use ofsteam treatment for improvement of the dimensional stability of woodfibers. Although I have not seen data comparing the effects oftemperature, my guess would be that the higher temperature treatmentwouldlead to a greater stiffening effect. So can we use a steam bath, followed by a drying period? Of course, the steam treatment of wood fibers might be pressurized steam, which wouldbe hard to duplicate in the basement or garage. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 13:27:00 1996 Subject: Re: Epoxy for Ferrules My favorite hardware places near home do not have the Devcon 2-Tonepoxy formy ferrule work. I did see plenty of Duro and Loctite brand products.Anyonehave an alternate choice that works OK ??? Karl Hube Karl, Something you may want to do is check the inside of each of the ferrulesprior to installation for oils,greases or soldering fluxes. I have comeacross several instances where the residue was extreme over the years.Thisfirst instance caused a ferrule to part from the rod the evening prior todelivery. Now I check them all and clean with a Q-tip or similar and acetone.Removethe acetone by heating the ferrule with either a alcohol burner or electricheat gun. Have found most of the ferrules have some residue left in them from construction. Regards, Don Andersen from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 14:08:16 1996 Subject: Re: Epoxy for Ferrules My favorite hardware places near home do not have the Devcon 2-Tonepoxy formy ferrule work. I did see plenty of Duro and Loctite brand products.Anyonehave an alternate choice that works OK ??? Karl Hube Karl, Something you may want to do is check the inside of each of the ferrulesprior to installation for oils,greases or soldering fluxes. I have comeacross several instances where the residue was extreme over the years.Thisfirst instance caused a ferrule to part from the rod the evening prior todelivery. Now I check them all and clean with a Q-tip or similar and acetone.Removethe acetone by heating the ferrule with either a alcohol burner or electricheat gun. Have found most of the ferrules have some residue left in them from construction. Regards, Don Andersen Good call Don, I can't believe all the junk I have cleaned out of myferrules and tip tops. I also can't find Devcon epoxy up my way and I don'tfeel comfortable useing anything else. I just have to stock up when I headsouth. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 14:08:33 1996 Subject: Split Cane - Generating an audience. Okay, there seems to be interest in split cane spinning rods....A little while ago we all were discussing the apparent lack ofsplit cane fly rod enthusiasts. A much larger group is the hardware and bait chucker crowd. What are the barriers toappealing to this group? Cost:$100 will buy the best top of the line graphite spinning rod.What would I have to charge for a split cane spinning rod?Probably about $300 minimum. Availability:The only split cane spinning rod I have ever seen in my lifeis the one I made for my mother. I have had a lot of interestwhen people see it, but the cost is a prohibitive factor. I think if we can generate the interest of the spin fishingcrowd, maybe 3 or 4 hundred for a spinning rod wouldcease to be a barrier. How can we generate interest?Make split cane spinning rods and get people out thereusing them. My mother always gets questions and commentswhen people see what she is using. I don't get that manycomments because most people are used to seeing bamboofly rods. Don't you have a parent, child, brother, sister, orgrandchild that fishes, but doesn't flyfish? Make them a bamboo spinning rod. Maybe the more exposure we getthe more people will turn to split cane. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 16:18:39 1996 Subject: Re: Split Cane - Generating an audience. Okay, there seems to be interest in split cane spinning rods....A little while ago we all were discussing the apparent lack ofsplit cane fly rod enthusiasts. A much larger group is the hardware and bait chucker crowd. What are the barriers toappealing to this group? Cost:$100 will buy the best top of the line graphite spinning rod.What would I have to charge for a split cane spinning rod?Probably about $300 minimum. Availability:The only split cane spinning rod I have ever seen in my lifeis the one I made for my mother. I have had a lot of interestwhen people see it, but the cost is a prohibitive factor. I think if we can generate the interest of the spin fishingcrowd, maybe 3 or 4 hundred for a spinning rod wouldcease to be a barrier. How can we generate interest?Make split cane spinning rods and get people out thereusing them. My mother always gets questions and commentswhen people see what she is using. I don't get that manycomments because most people are used to seeing bamboofly rods. Don't you have a parent, child, brother, sister, orgrandchild that fishes, but doesn't flyfish? Make them a bamboo spinning rod. Maybe the more exposure we getthe more people will turn to split cane. Darryl Hayashida Hello Darryl,Why would a spinning rod be that much less than a fly rod? Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 17:41:42 1996 Subject: RE: Split Cane - Generating an audience. Hello Darryl,Why would a spinning rod be that much less than a fly rod? A spinning rod would be a lot shorter for one thing, myspinning rods, which I still have lying around someplace,were all 5 to 6 ft. Single tip, so I can get about 8 rods outof a culm. The taper would be very simple, probablyjust a straight taper, the tip isn't as small as on a fly rod,and easier to plane, glue and install the tip top. Last time I bought a spin rod handle the reel seat was integrated in the handle and it cost $12.95. I had only to buy only five guides, no stripping guide ( or rather the stripping guide was just a big version of the smaller ones, and they were single foot ( didn't have to wrap both sides). I also used mismatched left over strips from other fly rods to make the spinning rod. I guess all in all it boils down toyou don't have to be as careful with a spinning rod as with a flyrod. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 18:06:58 1996 Subject: Bamboo / Cane Stresses There was some recent discussion here about the mechanics of flyrod construction and stresses in the cane. I couldn't recall ifthere had been a source given other that the "Masters" book foruseable stress levels. (I don't have a copy). I'd appreciate anysources used for obtaining this kind of technical data. BTW, I've been a lurker for some time now and am enjoying the banter. //----------------------------------------------------------------// Barry H. Welliver (wellive@ibm.net) Draper, Utah Wherever you go..... There you will be. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 22:11:33 1996 Subject: RE: Split Cane - Generating an audience. Hello Darryl,Why would a spinning rod be that much less than a fly rod? A spinning rod would be a lot shorter for one thing, myspinning rods, which I still have lying around someplace,were all 5 to 6 ft. Single tip, so I can get about 8 rods outof a culm. The taper would be very simple, probablyjust a straight taper, the tip isn't as small as on a fly rod,and easier to plane, glue and install the tip top. Last time I bought a spin rod handle the reel seat was integrated in the handle and it cost $12.95. I had only to buy only five guides, no stripping guide ( or rather the stripping guide was just a big version of the smaller ones, and they were single foot ( didn't have to wrap both sides). I also used mismatched left over strips from other fly rods to make the spinning rod. I guess all in all it boils down toyou don't have to be as careful with a spinning rod as with a flyrod. Darryl Hayashida I see what your saying Darryl, but I also notice some of the better knownrod makers are selling their short midge rods for $750-800. Hand planingataper is still hand planing a taper, straight or otherwise. You put 13 bucksinto a reel seat instead of 50, and maybe save another $4-5 on the guides.Even at $750 your working for about $5/hr., but in the end, as long as thebuilder and the buyer are happy that's all that counts.take care, Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 24 23:50:58 1996 Subject: Re: Split Cane - Generating an audience. Availability:The only split cane spinning rod I have ever seen in my lifeis the one I made for my mother. I have had a lot of interestwhen people see it, but the cost is a prohibitive factor. Darryl,Actually, spinning became popular just as fiberglass hit the market. But some makers, both Bill and Gene Edwards, for example, made a numberof cane spinning rods. They also produced cane bait-casting and boat rods.Sam Carlson has about 50 spinning rod blanks, some glued up, some bundled strips, that were made by Gene Edwards. Rich Carlson showed mea spinning rod that he made from these, and it looks very nice, good flicking action. Some were made as 1 piece, others have a ferrule 6" above the topgrip.I'll ask Sam if he'll make these available, your idea of propagating cane rods has merit, IMHO. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 25 02:22:49 1996 Subject: Re: Split Cane - Generating an audience. In a message dated 96-05-24 15:08:01 EDT, you write: . I think if we can generate the interest of the spin fishingcrowd, maybe 3 or 4 hundred for a spinning rod wouldcease to be a barrier. How can we generate interest?Make split cane spinning rods and get people out thereusing them. My mother always gets questions and commentswhen people see what she is using. I don't get that manycomments because most people are used to seeing bamboofly rods. Don't you have a parent, child, brother, sister, orgrandchild that fishes, but doesn't flyfish? Make them a bamboo spinning rod. Maybe the more exposure we getthe more people will turn to split cane. Darryl Hayashida Hi Darryl,I too have made a spinning rod for a family member. I think that the costfactor will always be prohibitive as the purchase price would set one backatleast one payment on the bass boat, let alone the fact that the new ownerwould have to start drinking microbrews.A.J. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 25 08:35:16 1996 Subject: Re: Split Cane - Generating an audience. In a message dated 96-05-24 17:09:00 EDT, you write: Hello Darryl,Why would a spinning rod be that much less than a fly rod? Mark Good point mark. This could end up being a back door way of devalueingourbamboo work, per se. Anyway, its somthing to think about. Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 25 08:35:16 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo / Cane Stresses In a message dated 96-05-24 19:01:08 EDT, you write: There was some recent discussion here about the mechanics of flyrod construction and stresses in the cane. I couldn't recall ifthere had been a source given other that the "Masters" book foruseable stress levels. (I don't have a copy). I'd appreciate anysources used for obtaining this kind of technical data. BTW, I've been a lurker for some time now and am enjoying the banter. //----------------------------------------------------------------// Barry H. Welliver (wellive@ibm.net) Draper, Utah Hello Barry:There was a long-lasting thread on the understanding of stresses a coupleofmonths ago. Some were very scholarly. Others will have to explain how togointo the archives to retreive same, as I havn't a clue. Welcome to thegroup. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 25 08:35:40 1996 Subject: Re: Split Cane - Generating an audience. In a message dated 96-05-24 18:33:46 EDT, you write: .....I can get about 8 rods outof a culm. The taper would be very simple, probablyjust a straight taper, the tip.... Hello Darryl:The taper aspect brings up an interesting thought. I have built several30's- 50's style cane casting rods, at first with tapers copied from oldies.Decided to develop a taper using Wayne's program which worked out ok.Started with a graph and a compound stress curve and used "linelenght/wt"in lieu of lure weight. It all happily (and admittedly by accidental goodluck) worked out quite well and the rod is a compound-tapered casting rodwith a small, by c/r standards, tip of 5/64 ths. Out to 50' - 60' it isreally a delight and fun to cast and quite accurate. The point of all thisis that there is probably a lot of room for development of tapers for thoseinterested in split cane spinning rods. Taper changes really affect thefeel/accuracy/presentation of fly rods and did so to a degree in the 6' c/r.It seems that it might fall somewhere in between for the 6' - 7' spinrods,which are usually less stout than c/r's. Once knew a fellow who built u/l spin rods out of short fly rod glassblanksand had a bit of a following. Two Cents and Best Regards,Richard from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 25 09:51:21 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo / Cane Stresses Hello Barry:There was a long-lasting thread on the understanding of stresses acouple ofmonths ago. Some were very scholarly. Others will have to explain howto gointo the archives to retreive same, as I havn't a clue. Welcome to thegroup. Best Regards,Richard Tyree I just downloaded feb., march and april archives from the Rod Makers site.Looks like I have my saturday morning schedule set. Browsing themessagesthey appear to fit my needs... Thanks a lot. BTW, the Rod Makers site is very well done. //--- forwarded letter -------------------------------------------------------MIME- Version: 1.0Date: Sat, 25 May 96 09:23:37 -0400From: Fallcreek9@aol.com Subject: Re: Bamboo / Cane Stresses In a message dated 96-05-24 19:01:08 EDT, you write: There was some recent discussion here about the mechanics of flyrod construction and stresses in the cane. I couldn't recall ifthere had been a source given other that the "Masters" book foruseable stress levels. (I don't have a copy). I'd appreciate anysources used for obtaining this kind of technical data. BTW, I've been a lurker for some time now and am enjoying the banter. //----------------------------------------------------------------// Barry H. Welliver (wellive@ibm.net) Draper, Utah Hello Barry:There was a long-lasting thread on the understanding of stresses acouple ofmonths ago. Some were very scholarly. Others will have to explain howto gointo the archives to retreive same, as I havn't a clue. Welcome to thegroup. Best Regards,Richard Tyree //----------------------------------------------------------------// Barry H. Welliver (wellive@ibm.net) Draper, Utah Wherever you go..... There you will be. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 25 16:09:10 1996 Subject: Re: Split Cane - Generating an audience. Darryl I agree with Mark - why charge less??? Level of effort that goes into a product may not affect price. I just saw in one of my wife'scatalogs (H&S) a "custom limited edition (45 to be built) graphite (IM6) fly rod for $4000. No - I said four thousand. Fancy bit of marketing - a little gold trim on nickel silver reel seat and a piece of scrimshaw in grip and one of Arne's leather case - Bingo - you have a high dollar item. Also goodcustom spining / bait casting / boat rods cost a pretty penny. Now add fancywraps and a weave for $250 - $500 more. The point is that if you are the sole source and the market perceives that it is "better" than people will pay. Sooo.. you gotta learn how to market your product. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 26 09:30:14 1996 Subject: Bamboo die-off There was a thread last week re: bamboo "going to seed" and dying off.ThoughtI'd throw in my .02 cents... Bamboo is a cash crop for the Chinese and hasbeenso for a very long time. A bamboo grove is planted on a clear-cut hillsidebyplanting "clumps" of one or two stalks with rhizome(roots) attached in arandompattern every 6-10 feet. The new grove reaches full production in about 10yearsand produces for about 40 years. Very rarely (75-100 yrs.) a grove or acoupleof groves will flower. When flowering the grove stops producing, but willbeginproducing again in a few years(probably 2-3). This flowering/going to seedaffects only a few groves every 75-100 years and does not interrupt theimportof bamboo to the west.However, if you'd like to have a few culms put away"justin case" - can't hurt. The above short bamboo botany courtesy of Mr.Demarest'stalks @ various rodbuilders gatherings and Letcher Lambuth's, "TheAngler'sWorkshop". Dennis Higham from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 26 12:22:41 1996 Subject: "V" Block Caliper In the Jan/Feb issue of the Planning Form there was a letter from JohnLongabout a 6" dial caliper with a "V" block for measuring individual canestrips. He said the caliper was available from Bill Waara. Does anyoneknowhow to reach Bill Waara? Any opinions out there on the merits of the idea? Thanks; Phil from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 26 12:38:46 1996 Subject: Dip Tubes & Heat Treating Ovens I just built my first rod and need to build a dip tube to finish it. Doesanyone have a current source for the necessary motor and pulley? I saw aposting from a while back with the idea of building a tube with a drain atthe bottom. Instead of the motor raising the rod, the drain controls theflow out of the tube. Anyone else doing it that way? When it was time to heat treat my rod, I was able to borrow the use of amoven made by William Senecal. It worked well. The design is similar to theoven.gif design by Frank Neuman. The oven did not seem to have the hotspotin the middle that some heat strip ovens have. Has anyone built an ovenlikethis? Are you happy with it? Before spending the time to build this oven, Iwanted to see if there is a better design that some one has come up with. Thanks; Phil from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 26 12:44:21 1996 Subject: Re: Homogenized? Are we destined to homogenize the rodbuilding craft? Will there be atimewhen new and different ideas are scorned before they are fairlyevaluated?This is not meant to be a criticism of any one point of view, merely atopicthat we can banter around.Personaly I wonder if we might end up with extremely well crafted rodsthattare all built with one taper theory(not a specific taper). I've been away in Taipei (ooh the smog) so I'm late in responding to this old thread. I think A.J. may be right. When I recall my studies in Furniture design, most of the students wanted to approach design with a blank slate; and greatly resented the courses on historical design, they openly feared that knowledge of the past designs might impact their creativity. (Hurrumph!) IMO, many of the rodmakers that I've spoken to have exhibited this trait. This is lamentable because, to misquote: "those that don't learn from the errors of the past, are destined to repeat them". Let's hope that more rodmakers will take the time to cast some of the "classics"( such as a 9' Leonard Catskill 4wt). This will permit them to discern actions other than Paul Young and Garrison, to see that the "dry fly" action is not the most efficient and pleasurable for all conditions. Also, I see few rodmakers creating 9' or longer rods, this is curious, given the many advantages of long rods. Just some observations from a builder. Reed Curry P.S. - In Taiwan bamboo is used extensively for construction. Ususally for outbuildings or rooftop buildings, but also as scaffolding covering 5 story modern buildings. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 26 17:03:41 1996 Subject: Re: Homogenized? Are we destined to homogenize the rodbuilding craft? Will there be atimewhen new and different ideas are scorned before they are fairlyevaluated?This is not meant to be a criticism of any one point of view, merely atopicthat we can banter around.Personaly I wonder if we might end up with extremely well crafted rodsthattare all built with one taper theory(not a specific taper). I've been away in Taipei (ooh the smog) so I'm late in responding to this old thread. I think A.J. may be right. When I recall my studies in Furniture design, most of the students wanted to approach design with a blank slate; and greatly resented the courses on historical design, they openly feared that knowledge of the past designs might impact their creativity. (Hurrumph!) IMO, many of the rodmakers that I've spoken to have exhibited this trait. This is lamentable because, to misquote: "those that don't learn from the errors of the past, are destined to repeat them". Let's hope that more rodmakers will take the time to cast some of the "classics"( such as a 9' Leonard Catskill 4wt). This will permit them to discern actions other than Paul Young and Garrison, to see that the "dry fly" action is not the most efficient and pleasurable for all conditions. Also, I see few rodmakers creating 9' or longer rods, this is curious,given the many advantages of long rods. Just some observations from a builder. Reed Curry P.S. - In Taiwan bamboo is used extensively for construction. Ususally for outbuildings or rooftop buildings, but also as scaffolding covering 5 story modern buildings. Hello Reed,Welcome back, did you stay in " THE GRAND HOTEL " by any chance? Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 26 17:35:00 1996 Subject: Motors Try Edmund Scientific. They have a 110V 1 RPM motor that works well forme. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 26 20:21:05 1996 Subject: "V" Block Caliper Phil - Try calling John Long @ 313-420-0267 or write 16231 ApplebyLane,Northville, MI 48167. John's been selling the V-blocks and also a goodsplicing block for nodless rods. Dennis from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 27 07:40:32 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo die-off In preparation for teaching a new (for me) genetics course next year, I have come across material relating to the cyclical bamboo die-offs. According to a paper by Daniel Janzen in the 1976 Review of Ecology and Systematics, the various species of bamboo have synchronized flowering. The time between flowering episodes is very consistent within a species but varies greatly between species. For some species, the cycles is thought to be as long as 150 years but sufficiently detailed records have not been kept to be sure. One species, P. bambusoides, has flowered and died off every 120 years since records have been kept beginning in 999. Remarkably, transplants of this species have been made in the U. S., Japan, England and Russia and all flowered on the same year across the globe. For other species the flowering cycles can be as short as 15 years. Unfortunately, I do not have information regarding the length of the cycle, its consistency or the time required for it to grow back to a usable size. Bill Lamberson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 27 14:25:38 1996 Subject: Re: Motors You can also find them at Graingers if such is more convenient. Also, justasuggestion: You might consider one of the 'synchrnous' moters rather thanthe'shaded pole' types as the latter run very hot. Anyone else out there whocan shed light on that for him please do so - I'm speaking only fromexperience. Regards,R Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 27 14:26:11 1996 Subject: Re: Homogenized? In a message dated 96-05-26 13:37:54 EDT, you write: Let's hope that more rodmakers will take the time to cast some of the "classics"( such as a 9' Leonard Catskill 4wt). Hi Reed:Been wondering where your :>} has been. Would love to try the 9' Leonardyoumentioned - any chance you will bring one to TTBBBq? While in Tiape, did you draw any conclusions as to the kind of bambooobserved for the mentioned uses? Did any of it look suitable for rod use?Just curious, as the scaffolding bamboo shown in the famous Natnl Geoissuelooks good. Regards,R Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 27 14:26:38 1996 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper In a message dated 96-05-26 13:16:26 EDT, you write: a "V" block for measuring individual canestrips. He said the caliper was available from Bill Waara. Does anyoneknowhow to reach Bill Waara? Any opinions out there on the merits of the Hello Phil:The V-blk seems a great idea to me. There are times when the bamboo attheapex is simply not suitable for measurements down to .001". The V-block(imho) deals with that aspect. I use one and like it. Am told that Bill Waara will attend the TBBBQ. Best Regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 27 19:31:12 1996 Subject: Re: Motors You can also find them at Graingers if such is more convenient. Also,just asuggestion: You might consider one of the 'synchrnous' moters rather thanthe'shaded pole' types as the latter run very hot. Anyone else out there whocan shed light on that for him please do so - I'm speaking only fromexperience. Regards,R Tyree Hello R. Tyree, I have one of the GRANGER motors for my dip tank, it must be a shadedpoletype because it does run very hot. I also use it for a rod turner when doingmy wraps and it gets very hot, I always worry that it is going to stop athewrong moment. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 27 22:49:10 1996 Subject: Re: Motors In a message dated 96-05-27 20:26:52 EDT, you write: Hello R. Tyree, I have one of the GRANGER motors for my dip tank, it must be a shadedpoletype because it does run very hot. I also use it for a rod turner when doingmy wraps and it gets very hot, I always worry that it is going to stop athewrong moment. Mark Hi Mark:The one I use is for a six-station rod turner (home made, looks like agattlin gun when loaded) and is mod # 3M096, rated at 35 inch- poundstorque.The paperwork with it stated for continuous duty to reduce the torque by25%. I think it stated 24-hr as a continuous duty definition. So, thatimplies it should go on and on at the high temp. Further, the Graingercatalog shows several of the shaded pole moters with cooling fans, so itsgenetic and apparently nothing to cause concern. Regards, RTyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 27 23:30:52 1996 Subject: Filter Varnish I have been reading the mail for three weeks or so and would like to ask aquestion about how to clean up the varnish I buy. I am presently using manofwar because that is what I have always used on the bright work of theboat Iused to run in Alaska and it worked fine. However, dipping rods into it seemsto present a problem, the varnish is very dirty. I have tried using pantyhoseend such but to no avail, has anyone used filter paper and does it work? Irealize that thier are a lot of variables, ie, is the blank clean beforedipping etc, but I have tried to eliminate all that I can think of and I stillend up with a whole lot of defects in the varnish. I can polish them out butfeel like their must be a better way, any suggestions would beappreciated. Displaced Alaskan, Chuck from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 27 23:36:09 1996 Subject: Re: Motors The shaded pole motors are supposed to be used with a cooling fan in acontinuous type of application. The fan helps the heat but it also stirs upthe dreaded dust.A.J. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 04:53:13 1996 Subject: Re: Homogenized? Richard Tyree wrote:Been wondering where your :>} has been. Would love to try the 9' Leonardyoumentioned - any chance you will bring one to TTBBBq? Richard, I wish I could bring one; alas, though I had the opportunity to purchase such a rod a few years ago, I couldn't afford it at the time. I'll bring a few interesting (antique) rods for you to try, though. While in Tiape, did you draw any conclusions as to the kind of bambooobserved for the mentioned uses? Did any of it look suitable for rod use?Just curious, as the scaffolding bamboo shown in the famous Natnl Geoissuelooks good. I have looked at it closely and am unable to identify it; but then I know no botany. It does look good and must have good structural integrity.I assume there are wholesalers to supply the building trade. I'll send an email to our Hsinchu office and ask for names of suppliers; and learn if possible what type it is. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 05:29:44 1996 Subject: Re: Filter Varnish At 00:22 5/28/96 EDT, you wrote:I have been reading the mail for three weeks or so and would like to ask aquestion about how to clean up the varnish I buy. I am presently usingman ofwar because that is what I have always used on the bright work of theboat Iused to run in Alaska and it worked fine. However, dipping rods into it seemsto present a problem, the varnish is very dirty. I have tried using pantyhoseend such but to no avail, has anyone used filter paper and does it work? Irealize that thier are a lot of variables, ie, is the blank clean beforedipping etc, but I have tried to eliminate all that I can think of and I stillend up with a whole lot of defects in the varnish. I can polish them outbutfeel like their must be a better way, any suggestions would beappreciated. Displaced Alaskan, Chuck Chuck,I have some old marine varnish I have used. The paper label on the can haslong since disappeared, but it is thick and nasty. Not having dip tubes andhaving a poor brushing technique I decided to apply the varnish with anairbrush. This required severly thinning the varnish and filtering it toallow it to pass thru the airbrush properly without clogging. Using papercoffee filters did not work at all, so I bought paper paint filters whichhad a fine mesh at the bottom of the cone. I didn't have any problems usingthe airbrush, and the finish was smoother than if I had brushed it on, butstill did not come out as smooth as I hoped for, and I still had to do a lotof polishing. In order to filter your varnish without thinningit you may have to heat it a little to get it to run better, and use a fewdifferent meshes of filter. Are you sure your dip tubes were completelyclean before putting the varnish in?Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 06:19:37 1996 Subject: Devcon 2-Ton Epoxy At last....yesterday I found some Devcon products in (my last hope) K-Mart!! The package I found is listed as "Crystal Clear" 2-Ton Epoxy and is inone of the two-cylinder syringe-like mixing devices. Is this what everyoneis having success with ?? I have always avoided the two-cylinder typepackages because I fully expected the whole thing to turn into a mess tokeep clean as compared with the simple two tube "mix your own" method. Karl Hube from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 08:16:36 1996 Subject: Epoxy I've had good luck with a product called Evercoat Epoxy Paste Glue. It ismarketed through boatyards and boating supply stores. In fact, I've builtsome small plywood boats with it and it is excellent for that purpose. Istarted using it for repairing old rods several years ago, using it to splicenew sections on to broken rods, a tough test for any glue. I have also usedit for ferrules and reel seats, where it is probably overkill. Last year Imade my first four strip rod, and ended up with a section of seam I didn'tlike, ( right in front of the grip, naturally ). I used this stuff to glue upthe rod and it filled the gap very nicely. The stuff has the consistency ofVaseline, does not run, and dries very hard. There is plenty of open time,and about 24 hours to full cure. No heat cure is involved, and the mix is anon critical two part. Gap filling properties, as I mentioned, are excellent. Fibre Glass - Evercoat Co. Inc.Cincinatti, OH from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 08:48:55 1996 Subject: Re: Filter Varnish In a message dated 96-05-28 06:24:45 EDT, you write: owever, dipping rods into it seemsto present a problem, the varnish is very dirty. I have tried using pantyhoseend such but to no avail, has anyone used filter paper and does it work? And Jim wrote:Are you sure your dip tubes were completelyclean before putting the varnish in?Jim I have had the experience that after servicing a dip tank (built to WCattanach specs) have had the same problem, but it went away after a fewdips. Could be that the junk floats to the top and is pulled off early inthe life of the varnish servicing. You might try several pulls with an oldrod section or dowel before serious use. One other tip someone passed onisto construct the tube arrangement with epoxy rather than solder if makingitof copper. Also, I had a batch of var turn green from reaction with thecopper after a few months. Fix was to coat the inside with epoxy, buthavn'thad enough time to determine results. One other consideration: had beentold that one type of poly var was not compatible with tac cloths, sodidn'tuse - had lots of problems with bits and pieces type contamination, nomatterhow clean the rod section. Tried a tac cloth, an old, near dry one, andwalla, the problem disappeared. Regards,Richard Tyree Best Regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 11:40:55 1996 Subject: Re: Motors Dear Richard, Mark, et al: Thanks for the info on motors. I looked your motor (3M096) up inGrainger'scatalog. It costs $30.90 nowdays. Is it worth the price for a synchronousmotor? They are in the $45.00 range? Has anyone devised a speed control for these motors to adjust the diprate? What kind of pulley did you mount on the motor shaft to take up thestring? Thanks for the help; Phil from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 12:34:22 1996 Subject: Re: Motors Dear Richard, Mark, et al: Thanks for the info on motors. I looked your motor (3M096) up inGrainger'scatalog. It costs $30.90 nowdays. Is it worth the price for a synchronousmotor? They are in the $45.00 range? Has anyone devised a speed control for these motors to adjust the diprate? What kind of pulley did you mount on the motor shaft to take up thestring? Thanks for the help; Phil board from a place like H&R. These are often sold as "demo" boards so youcan learn about the function of stepper motors. The whole thing costsabout $25 (US). The real advantage to using a stepper motor is that youcan run it forward and reverse at any speed, it stays put when you stop it,you can also run it in "single step" mode to make very small movements ofthe rod. This is helpful when getting down toward the grip wraps. Call H&R at 1-800-848-8001 and ask for either TM93KIT2421 $24.95(kit) orTM93KIT2421/A $39.50 for pre assembled unit. The kit is just somesimplesoldering, so if you have a low watt soldering iron, you can save yourselfsome $. I used a large size sewing thread spool as a pulley which gave a goodresult. I mounted the whole unit on the outside of the dip tube and ranthe string (flyline backing) through a little hole in the side and over arod I stuck through the tube to get the string to hang down the center. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 17:46:04 1996 Subject: Re: Motors I=B4ve been using my kids LEGO - motors for dipping my rods. I discovered that it had a lot of gears and stuff that enabled me to lift the rods very nice and slow out of the varnish. Looks a bit funny though - and my kids want their LEGO!/Mikael(Nordic flyfishing and rodbuilding at:http://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 18:27:57 1996 Subject: Re: Motors Motor - who needs a motor - yet another gadget. I ended up makingusing a dowel with a wooden rachet and claw that I made out of scrapwoodand do the thing by hand. I can control speed and stop when I want. Amotoris nice but it is not a necessity of life. Plus think of the beer you can buyat the Trout Bum BBQ with the spare change. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 18:32:48 1996 Subject: Re: Motors Motor - who needs a motor - yet another gadget. I ended up makingusing a dowel with a wooden rachet and claw that I made out of scrapwoodand do the thing by hand. I can control speed and stop when I want. Amotoris nice but it is not a necessity of life. Plus think of the beer you can buyat the Trout Bum BBQ with the spare change. Chris You have a point there. You could have used an old flyreel too! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 18:45:18 1996 Subject: Re: Filter Varnish Chuck Remember: clean rod, clean varnish, and clean environment. You needto control it all. Try wiping the rod with mineral spirits (oil) and a light once over with a tack cloth (dust if you sand between coats). Try thefilters you can get in any paint store for filtering your varnish (they're cheap). An enclosed environment around your dip tube - try misting the area witha spray bottle with water and a drop of dish detergent in it to get rid of airborne dust 5 - 10 min before you dip. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 18:52:43 1996 Subject: motors Excuse my ignorance, or not, depending on your mood. I'm curious aboutthe recent talk regarding motors for dipping. Is the motorized process considered necessary to obtain a good finish, or is it just a better path to the same result? Is it important to remove the section from the dip tube at a consistent rate of speed? Why? Thanks, Mac from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 19:05:51 1996 Subject: Big Rods Reed I would like to follow up your point about most builders seem to bemaking small rods and concideing the world of big rods to graphite. Having used your rent-a-rod last year in Grayling successfully in the trout bum derby and then being egged by youto build a big rod them. I am continuing to explore the possibilities they present. I have found thatthey have been sold short and that I am learning more by exploring the possiblities of bamboo edge. I have found that there are various myths that can be broken when Ipick up a big cane rod and procede to astound my fellow fly fishing cronies with their biggraphite rods. I would like to hear from other rodbuilders about building largerrods. I have played around with hollow fluting and will continue to do so. Also I havediscovered that the issue of rod balance plays an important role in how well the rodperforms or is recieved. Lastly, I am looking for exploring two handed tapers - they seem toprovide a good degree of control when casting a larger rod. (just like a two handed back hand intennis) This point was demonstrated to me by Bob Milward at Corbet Lake. So, let's have real men start building real rods! Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 19:10:34 1996 Subject: Re: Motors On Tue, 28 May 1996 19:23:44 -0400, Bruce Conner wrote: Motor - who needs a motor - yet another gadget. I ended up makingusing a dowel with a wooden rachet and claw that I made out of scrapwoodand do the thing by hand. I can control speed and stop when I want. Amotoris nice but it is not a necessity of life. Plus think of the beer you canbuyat the Trout Bum BBQ with the spare change. Chris You have a point there. You could have used an old flyreel too! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net Gee Bruce You can even set the drag depending on the weight of the rod. I havesee reels used for hand binding - that is if anyone has "old" fly reels. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 19:16:17 1996 Subject: Farlowe And Co. Greenheart Rod An acquaintance of mine brought over a 9' rod to look at and possibly have the guides replaced and and rewrapped. The rod is a 9' Greenheart Rod, made by Farlowe and Co. The only other markings on the rod is the no, 1905 S. The greenheart itself is in very good condition, the finish on it is good, with few blemishes. There are some scratches, but mostly observed upon close examination. The buttcap and hosel are tarnished, the hosel suffering the most tarnishing. The ferrule also has tarnished, but otherwise looks fine. All the snake guides are rusted badly, and will require replacement, as do most of the guide windings. 1. Does anyone have information regarding this rod and its value? Can the age be determined? 2. What may be safely done to repair the rod? It is my belief that only the guides need to be replaced, and perhaps some of the tarnish removed. Most of the work I have done has been on modern graphite and fibreglass, I know most here seem to have a disdain for that, however, I do appreciate fine old rods as well, and do not wish to do anything if I should not. Please at least respect me for that! :-)) Thanks in advance! Ian ScottIan ScottWishbone Custom Rods wishbone@headwaters.comhttp://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone ********************************************************************************************* "The butterfly counts not months but moments,and has time enough." Rabindranath TagoreFireflies, 1928 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 21:09:13 1996 Subject: Re: Motors Motor - who needs a motor - yet another gadget. I ended up makingusing a dowel with a wooden rachet and claw that I made out of scrapwoodand do the thing by hand. I can control speed and stop when I want. Amotoris nice but it is not a necessity of life. Plus think of the beer you canbuyat the Trout Bum BBQ with the spare change. Chris Who needs an engine for the car anyway, remember Fred Flintstone? Gee, Iwonder what the walk is from Grayling back home? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 21:15:39 1996 Subject: Re: Audience/homogenized Dear Rodmakers,I have been following both the Cane Audience and Homogenized threadswith great interest. Another potential non-flyrod use for cane might bethelong (8 1/2 - 9') two-handed casting rods used by NW salmon/steelheaddriftfishers. Some of these folks are not my favorite people -- I am sure thatMike in PDX would concur -- as I have filled many a litter bag with themonofilament snarls and stinking bait containers left behind byunenlightenedmembers of this fraternity. In print, at least, they seem to be concernedmore with rod action (i.e. taper) and sensitivity than with weight. Theyoutnumber steelhead flyfishers a hundred to one. A market? Which bringsmeto the other thread, which among other things raised the question of thevalidity of the conventional wisdom that cane can only compete withgraphitein the shorter lengths. Are there no contemporary builders making canespeyrods? This is another area where the 'weight penalty' of cane seems lessimportant than taper sophistication. I know that historically speaking,canetwo-handers never replaced greenheart rods, and problems of delaminationandferrule-twisting plagued cane two- handers, but these do not seeminsurmountable with modern glues, etc. Comments?I am not yet a builder, but I have joined the ranks of cane- wrappers,owners, and fishers, having 'built' a 7 1/2' 6" cane on a Partridge ofRedditch blank. I know it is a factory blank, impregnated, etc, and in twohours of fishing I am hardly a master of it, but to me, today, it is the bestrod in the world...--Roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 28 23:55:50 1996 Subject: Re: Big Rods I build alot of rods that would be considered large by east coast standards.I cut my teeth on rods 8ft and up. To address your point about why notmanylarge rods are built. At least on a proffessional level it is because theydon't sell very well if at all. The design of a longer rod I have found to bemore exacting than a shorter rod. The mistakes made in the taper designaremagnified. Another problem is that longer bamboo rods are more criticalas totheir timing, this means that there has to be more skill on the part of theangler. This skill has been severely underdeveloped with the advent of thefaster and faster graphite which is tolerant of mediocre skillsA.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 09:14:08 1996 Subject: Re: Big Rods List: With the big cane rod thread resurfacing on the list, I will reiterate my earlier comments: I have no experience with really big (over 9', two-handed, etc.) cane rods, but I have extensively used quality (F.E. Thomas, old Orvis)8' to 8-1/2', 7 and 8 weights (hope to build my own soon). There isnothing, *nothing* better for casting large flies relatively short (A motor is nice but it is not a necessity of life. Plus think of the beer you can buy at the Trout Bum BBQ with the spare change. WHAT!!!? I thought Wayne was buying all the beer!!! :-) Mike - Beer & Bamboo - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 10:03:58 1996 Subject: RE: Dip Tubes & Heat Treating Ovens I just built my first rod and need to build a dip tube to finish it.Doesanyone have a current source for the necessary motor and pulley? I sawaposting from a while back with the idea of building a tube with a drainatthe bottom. Instead of the motor raising the rod, the drain controlstheflow out of the tube. Anyone else doing it that way? As the "inventor" of the drain the tube instead of raising the roddipping method, I thought I would wait until the rod puller postsdied down, and mention the best reason to use the drain the tubemethod. If you drape a rag or cheesecloth on the top of the tubeand tape the edges of the rag around the outside of the tube, whenthe varnish has drained out you have a perfect dust and insect freechamber for the varnish to harden in. Just be sure to use a can ofmineral spirits to submerge the valve from the outside or the varnishwill harden inside your valve. This way you can dip your rods inyour garage, basement, etc. without having to worry about tryingto get a dust free room. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 10:31:23 1996 Subject: RE: Audience/homogenized Are there no contemporary builders making cane speyrods? This is another area where the 'weight penalty' of cane seemslessimportant than taper sophistication. I know that historicallyspeaking, canetwo-handers never replaced greenheart rods, and problems ofdelamination andferrule-twisting plagued cane two-handers, but these do not seeminsurmountable with modern glues, etc. Comments? As Wayne commented quite a while ago, the bamboo rod craftsman shouldbecome somewhat of a guru of the style of fishing he does and then hecanbuild rods that best suits that style of fishing. I have never gonesalmon orsteelhead fishing, so if I tried to build a spey rod I would be guessingat whatwould be needed for that type of rod. It's my impression, and I could bewrong,that there are so few people using spey rods that the chance of a bamboorod maker who uses one is pretty slim. Is there anyone on the list whohasdeveloped a spey rod taper? Let's hear from you. I would be interestedinseeing a spey rod taper and plotting the stress curve. Or for thatmatter ataper for a 9 ft. split cane rod in general. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 13:54:53 1996 Subject: Questions ??? Several Questions as I begin my foray into the world of CANE: I was able to get a Leonard blank - an eight foot for 4/5 wt. In showing it to several people who havesome knowledge of bamboo rods,there is a difference of opinion as to wether it is a "durocane" blank or not. How can I tell? What are the ramifications? If it is, will it need to be varnished? How do I determine the guide spacing on this blank. There are plenty of charts for graphite. Can they be used? Having build mostly Scott rods in the past that info hase been supplied with the blank. Other than the size difference, and assuming that is compensated for, what are the other disadvantages of English type guides? Thinking of the Hopkins and Holloway guides. Also, what has been the experience with either blued or bronzed guides? Do they hold up? To date all of the discussion has been very informative and enlightening. I don't expect to do much more that build on blanks I purchase for now, but who knows what the future may hold. With that in mind, where is a good source of blanks? Fred Bohls from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 14:33:19 1996 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu's message of 27-May-96 15:13 boundary=Boundary-2245660-0-0 --Boundary-2245660-0-0 Bill Waara expects to attend the Grayling TBBBQ; however, he does notsupply the "V" block or the caliper. Contact John Long @ 16231 Appleby Ln., Northville, MI 48167. The cost is $75 which includes the "V" block,caliper and shipping. I'll have to check my supply as I may be all out until autumn. Same for the splicing blocks. Regards, John --Boundary-2245660-0-0 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper CREN In a message dated 96-05-26 13:16:26 EDT, you write: a "V" block for measuring individual canestrips. He said the caliper was available from Bill Waara. Does anyoneknowhow to reach Bill Waara? Any opinions out there on the merits of the Hello Phil:The V-blk seems a great idea to me. There are times when the bamboo attheapex is simply not suitable for measurements down to .001". The V-block(imho) deals with that aspect. I use one and like it. Am told that Bill Waara will attend the TBBBQ. Best Regards, Richard Tyree --Boundary-2245660-0-0-- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 14:51:11 1996 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper John - Mr. "V" Block - Long seez... :-) Bill Waara expects to attend the Grayling TBBBQ; however, he does notsupply the "V" block or the caliper. Contact John Long @ 16231 Appleby Ln., Northville, MI 48167. The cost is $75 which includes the "V" block,caliper and shipping. I'll have to check my supply as I may be all out untilautumn. Same for the splicing blocks. John, will you be at TBBBQ? If so could you bring a sample ofyou "V" block and splicing block? I would love to see them. Mike - 'block' head - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 15:11:40 1996 Subject: Motors and other things To All, A motor to retrieve the rod is important. If the rod is retrieved at anon- constant rate, there is the very real possibility that the surface ofthe rod will suffer runs of varnish. These are tough to take out. I havefound the retrieval rate for the finish I am using to be 2 1/2" per minuteat a temperature of 90 degrees F of the finish. As you change rod finishmaterials, each of them has a different visoscity and therefore willrequirea different rate. The motor I use is attached to a 1/4" bolt of 6" that ismachine down to give me the required rate. The bolt is supported in twohi-moly plastic bushes. As far as using a reel or other contrivance - I can't imagine applying 4coats of finish on a 8' 2 tip rod @ 2 1/5" per minute. That's a lot oftrying to be perfect. The dip tube I use is 2" aluminum electrical conduit c/w a 1/4 turn brassball valve and a pipe cap on the hinterend. The tube is threaded for thevalve and cap. I keep the finish material for up to 4 years in the tubewithout struggle. Just leave the level of the finish slighty lower than thevalve. Close the valve between uses. After 4 years, I remove and clean thevalve and chuck both the tube and cap c/w finish and replace both. Motors, switches and other items of interest to the home builder arelikelyavailable @ the local junk dealer. I have one in the city 60 miles away thatstocked fractional HP motors of "slowww" speed. Cheap too. Got it for $10.00 CDN. Was so impressed that I went down and bought a second one formyrod roller. ( motor came from a Xerox copier) Further a reversing switchformy lathe was quoted at $250.00 from my local supplier and I picked on up@the city dealer for $ 50.00. There was a rod finish system that was "invented" by Bob Kambietz ofCalgary, Alberta that some of the guys may find interesting. I "think" thatthe system was written up in the Planning form. For those that don't haveacopy, here goes a brief description. Required materials: - 1 glass bottle c/w swaged neck and open bottom- 1 piece of latex rubber of your choice - best is non-lubricated- place a piece of the latex over the neck of the bottle and secure in placewith a elastic- punch a very small hole into the latex in the center- put the tip of the rod through the hole- fill the bottle with the finish- slid the bottle down the rod slowwwwly Modifications: Clamp bottle into device that moves it down the rod shaft slowly. These devices can be:- weights on bottle with a friction system- bottle clamped into a rest and slid down a set of rails. The rest is a nutinstalled in a piece of all thread. The all thread is turned the requiredrate to get the rate of withdrawal correct. Etc. Etc. Regards, Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 15:18:04 1996 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu's message of 29-May-96 14:46 boundary=Boundary-2246194-0-0 --Boundary-2246194-0-0 Sorry to say I won't be at the TBBBQ- its really a disappointment not to be able to make it but I'll be on a family vacation to Puget sound and thedates cannot be changed. Guess I'll have to be content with fishing the salt and some of the famous rivers out there. If I have any splicers or "V" blocks left I'll send a sample with Bill Waara to the TBBBQ. John --Boundary-2246194-0-0 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper CREN John - Mr. "V" Block - Long seez... :-) Bill Waara expects to attend the Grayling TBBBQ; however, he does notsupply the "V" block or the caliper. Contact John Long @ 16231 Appleby Ln., Northville, MI 48167. The cost is $75 which includes the "V" block,caliper and shipping. I'll have to check my supply as I may be all out untilautumn. Same for the splicing blocks. John, will you be at TBBBQ? If so could you bring a sample ofyou "V" block and splicing block? I would love to see them. Mike - 'block' head - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. --Boundary-2246194-0-0-- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 15:20:24 1996 Subject: Big rods About three years ago, Cecil Pierce, who we lost last winter, made a copyof atwo handed rod, one of Payne's if I remember correctly. The original hepurchased from Martin Keene just to get tapers. Cecil used his hollowconstruction with bamboo/carbon filament combination that he workedwith foryears. One day he invited me to try that rod, long after he took it to Russia forsomesalmon fishing in the wild. After he got me tuned into the timing of the rod, almost a pause and waitsituation on the back cast, it was unbelievable how far you could lay a lineout. I've been told that there will be an auction of Cecil's belongings, includinghis fly rods. A friend who lives in the same town is supposed to let meknowwhen Cecil's Grandson is ready for the auction. If anyone wants theinformation, I'll post it when available. It might be a good place to start ifsomeone is looking for two handed rod data. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 15:30:50 1996 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu's message of 29-May-96 14:46 boundary=Boundary-2246369-0-0 --Boundary-2246369-0-0 Mike- Love being on the list. Would like to meet you and many of the other contributors. I'm at work and not supposed to use my e-mail for non- company purposes but sometimes I just have to jump in and say something insteadof just reading. I'll miss not being able sit around B.S. about bamboo. I promise to not miss any other conclaves... I hope. John, Counting my "V's", Long --Boundary-2246369-0-0 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper CREN John - Mr. "V" Block - Long seez... :-) Bill Waara expects to attend the Grayling TBBBQ; however, he does notsupply the "V" block or the caliper. Contact John Long @ 16231 Appleby Ln., Northville, MI 48167. The cost is $75 which includes the "V" block,caliper and shipping. I'll have to check my supply as I may be all out untilautumn. Same for the splicing blocks. John, will you be at TBBBQ? If so could you bring a sample ofyou "V" block and splicing block? I would love to see them. Mike - 'block' head - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. --Boundary-2246369-0-0-- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 16:25:04 1996 Subject: 4' 4" banty In the 18 th. issue of the planing form, R. Hoeckstra showed a taper fpr a4' 4" micro midge rod. I was wondering if anyone out there has tried thisrod, and if so how did you like it. The rod has a .076 tip and a .202 butt,I am thinking it is probably a 5# but am not sure. Thanks, Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 18:20:55 1996 Subject: Tempering oven Mailing To all, My machine had a major electronic fit and ate most of my files. Some thatmissing are the requests for the tempering oven drawings and commentsthat Iposted some while ago.Would those that wish the drawings and comments, please contact me offlistwith their mailing addresses. Thanks, Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 18:30:50 1996 Subject: Hollow built rods To all, At the Merritt meeting there was a presentation on hollowing building ofrods. There seems to be two major advantages to the system.1] The overall weight of the rod is reduced. As we are aware, cane hastakena bad rap for the weight of the material by the plastic boys. This certainlyis true in the larger size rods. Hollow building of the blank will reducethe weight. One of the artifacts on display was the butt section of a 10' 51/8 oz. tournament rod. One thing that impressed me was the weight ofthething. Was hardly there. This was a true hollow built. Could see rightthrough it. I would expect that a 10' rod would likley weight over 8 oz. insolid build. Hollow building might give the plastic boys something to thinkabout.2] One of the results of a cast is the secondary wave when the tipreboundsafter setting up the primary loop. If the rod was hollow built, the tipwould weight less and therefore less reducing the secondary wave andincreasing the efficincy of the cast. What's the thoughts of the group. Does hollow building have merit otherthana curiosity. Regards, Don A from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 18:45:45 1996 Subject: Hollow built rods Adjustment:If the second paragraph makes sense to you, you've had more sleep than I. Second paragraph is changed.Regards, Don To all, At the Merritt meeting there was a presentation on hollowing building ofrods. There seems to be two major advantages to the system.1] The overall weight of the rod is reduced. As we are aware, cane hastakena bad rap for the weight of the material by the plastic boys. This certainlyis true in the larger size rods. Hollow building of the blank will reducethe weight. One of the artifacts on display was the butt section of a 10' 51/8 oz. tournament rod. One thing that impressed me was the weight ofthething. Was hardly there. This was a true hollow built. Could see rightthrough it. I would expect that a 10' rod would likley weight over 8 oz. insolid build. Hollow building might give the plastic boys something to thinkabout.2] One of the results of a cast is the secondary wave when the tipreboundsafter setting up the primary loop. If the rod was hollow built, the tipwould weight less and therefore rebound less reducing the secondary waveandincreasing the efficincy of the cast. What's the thoughts of the group. Does hollow building have merit otherthana curiosity. Regards, Don A from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 18:48:13 1996 Subject: Re: Big Rods A.J. I agree that the bigger rods are more of a challange to the builder skills and learn the trade. I also agree that over a certain length large rods do not sell (perceptions maybe). But if anyone is out there looking for new challanges - I would suggest trying to build one of them. They have gotten me intrigued - and I am comptemplating a 2 handed one latter this summer- I have just the culm put aside for it. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 19:55:19 1996 Subject: Re: Hollow built rods Don I think that hollow building is more than a curiosity or a trick to lose weight. After listening and talking to Per - There is a real issue of developing complex tapers that include wall thickness and channelplacement that could impact the rod. My first attempt impressed me with the "advantage" gained - not only in weight loss - but power gain. A number of discussion points concerning how to hollow - how much to hollow andwhere to hollow needs to be followed up - also how it contributes to developing a better balanced rod that feels lighter and is easier to cast. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 19:55:24 1996 Subject: Re: 4' 4" banty Mark, I have made four of the 4'4"rods from the Planing Form and you are rightonthe money as fas as being a 5wt. When completed the rod is stiff as a poker but with a line on it it goesright to the cork. You should really make one... it is not a toy. I know Hardy made a 4'4" also but I am sure the one Bob H. gave to thePlaning Form is the Payne. Maybe someone has the Hardy taper and willshareit. Jon Parker from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 19:55:27 1996 Subject: RE: Hollow built rods 2] One of the results of a cast is the secondary wave when the tipreboundsafter setting up the primary loop. If the rod was hollow built, the tipwould weight less and therefore rebound less reducing the secondarywave andincreasing the efficincy of the cast. What's the thoughts of the group. Does hollow building have merit otherthana curiosity. I've done a little experimenting with hollow rods. I've found it to beextremely hard to hollow out a tip section, but fairly easy to hollowout a butt section, due to the diameters involved. I have been makingthree piece rods, and hollowing out the butt section, but leaving the mid section and tip section solid. I can't really tell if makes any difference or not. I primarily made these rods for backpacking and hiking in to off road places, so it makes me feel better imaginingthat I am carrying less weight. I have weighed the shavings I takeoff and in most cases it is less than half an ounce. It would be moreif it was from a butt section of a 9 ft rod though. To me, right nowthe way I do it, hollow building is a wash - maybe good, maybe not. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 20:03:23 1996 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper In a message dated 96-05-29 15:47:43 EDT, you write: John, will you be at TBBBQ? If so could you bring a sample ofyou "V" block and splicing block? I would love to see them. Mike - 'block' head - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Hi Mike:In case John does not make it to TTBBBQ, will have each item for others tosee, use, practice with, etc. I am into my first nodeless rod and like the splicing block just fine - it isspring loaded and does not have to be removed from the vice for eachchange -just loosen the vice a bit and its ready to unload/reload. As for the "V" block, have minimum use of mine, but it works just greatanddoes indeed deal with the soft point of the bamboo apex. I think both items are solid progress. Best Regards,RTyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 20:52:10 1996 Subject: Re: Orvis Rod Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 96-05-10 08:47:08 EDT, you write: Also, where can I find one of the original windingchecks? Hello Fred: There was a builder at the BC meet in '94 who had such a winding checkon arod he had built. When he was asked where he got it, he answered,"Orvis".Never checked it out, though. If you find a source, please let us know. Thanks and Best Regards,Richard Tyree Orvis was not much help. Talked to a Pat Noonan three times. he was supposed to write me with info on both winding checks as well as reel seats but that was almost two months ago and I still haven't heard from him. May try one more time. Any suggestions on either Orvis winding checks or hexagonal checks would be appreciated. I'd like to redo this as close to Orvis as possible. Fred from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 20:58:01 1996 Subject: Re: Big rods Thanks George, Keep us posted. About three years ago, Cecil Pierce, who we lost last winter, made a copyof atwo handed rod, one of Payne's if I remember correctly. The original hepurchased from Martin Keene just to get tapers. Cecil used his hollowconstruction with bamboo/carbon filament combination that he workedwith foryears. One day he invited me to try that rod, long after he took it to Russia forsomesalmon fishing in the wild. After he got me tuned into the timing of the rod, almost a pause and waitsituation on the back cast, it was unbelievable how far you could lay alineout. I've been told that there will be an auction of Cecil's belongings,includinghis fly rods. A friend who lives in the same town is supposed to let meknowwhen Cecil's Grandson is ready for the auction. If anyone wants theinformation, I'll post it when available. It might be a good place to startifsomeone is looking for two handed rod data. ---------------------------------------------------- James Bond, Toronto, Canada - FAX 416-444-4196 Fledgling cane rod builder, fly tyer and collectorof modern collectable angling books. I don't fish enough, but who does? "On the road to MandalayWhere the flyin' fishes playAn' the dawn comes up like thunder outer china'crost the Bay!" Rudyard Kipling 1865-1936 ---------------------------------------------------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 20:58:05 1996 Subject: Seasoning Cane Fellow listers, Much has been written on seasoning cane, but I don't really get it. Can youoffer a "top five list" on what to look for and how to evalute culms to bycolour or moisture. The last culm I split seemed to have a lot of curvaturein the split pieces. also, the cane I purchased from Demarest seemed very poor, whatexpectationshould I have? Do we have any options. Does anyone have any premiumstock Thanks, JB ---------------------------------------------------- James Bond, Toronto, Canada - FAX 416-444-4196 Fledgling cane rod builder, fly tyer and collectorof modern collectable angling books. I don't fish enough, but who does? "On the road to MandalayWhere the flyin' fishes playAn' the dawn comes up like thunder outer china'crost the Bay!" Rudyard Kipling 1865-1936 ---------------------------------------------------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 21:09:07 1996 Subject: Anybody know Walt Coaty? I was on a fishing trip this past weekend and ran into a old-timerodmaker by the name of Walt Coaty. Quite a character; could have stumbled out of a Robert Traver or Harry Middleton story. He hada nice little 6'3" rod he had built on a Paul Young taper that wasbeing donated to a raffle for the West Fork Sportsman's Club. (I took a chance but didn't win it.) He said he used to make 20 rods a year, but is now down to 2 because of health problems. Gave me plenty of advice. Has someold cane he wants to sell me. Anybody know this character?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 21:45:15 1996 Subject: Big Rods - Try them Definition of a "big rod" varies by locale and quarry, but for the list's sake I think a safe definition would be a rod greater than 8' 6" in length. I no longer (generally) use anything shorter, for the following reasons: 1/ A long rod permits more line to be held off the water for a better drift.2/ A long rod generally permits a more delicate delivery (try it).3/ A long rod makes even a small fish larger (the fish has a longer lever to work).4/ A long rod permits more relaxed casting, less arm movement. The speed of the casting is usually slower.5/ I can't think of a fifth reason. As for weight, I have a 10' 7wt which weighs 7.5 ounces ... and is an abomination to cast, but partly because of it's fast action. However, I have two 10' 5wt. weighing 5.5 oz. and 6.4 oz. respectively, and both of these are a pleasure to cast all day long. I believe the slower taper makes a lighter feeling rod, as well as permitting the rod to actually be lighter. I used to use a faster action 9' which weighed about the same as these 10'and I now find it heavy in the casting. Regarding length of rods: I have an Ogden Smith's catalogue (1925) beforeme with cane trout rods to 11' and salmon rods (two-handed) to 15'. Thesalmon rods were double-built in butt and mid. I have played with a 12' quad rod, double-built butt and mid, that was slow in action, but you could tell that it would throw 90' of line all day long with little effort. (Wouldn't want to do much false-casting, tho'). I really think weight is over-rated as a threat to pleasant casting. If the taper is right, and the rod is somewhat counterbalanced with a heavy reel, and the timing of the rod suits the user... he will find it light as thistledown. Just some thoughts. Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 22:06:31 1996 Subject: Re: Tempering oven Mailing Richard Tyree4192 Alsup Mill RoadLascassas, TN 37085 Thanks, RT from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 29 23:55:27 1996 Subject: Re: Big Rods - Try them I really think weight is over-rated as a threat to pleasant casting. If the taper is right, and the rod is somewhat counterbalanced with a heavyreel, and the timing of the rod suits the user... he will find it light as thistledown. Just some thoughts. Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net Reed,I agree with you. I think proper balance is often overlooked. A poorlybalanced rod, even though feather light can tire your wrist and arm in veryshort order. This is caused by an unconscious effort by the caster toovercome the effects (by brute force) of the unbalanced condition at thepivot point of the rod, which is where it is held. A well balanced heavy rodwill actually feel lighter than it really is. However, the balance point ina fly rod under use is dynamic and the changes become more pronounced inthelonger rods, especially when you have a lot of line out.Just a few more thoughts.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 01:02:57 1996 Subject: fishing report/new rod report(long{winded?}) Howdy folks,It's been a long time since I've written to y'all and,I mustconfess,a good while since I've kept up with all the goings on on eitherFF@ or the Rodmakers List. Unlike many of you,I don't have to sit in frontof this little box for a living and especially now with fishing season infull swing, I find very little time left to read all the mail. I was goingto send this to just a few folks I've kept in touch with,but decided toshare it with all of you,because it's really *about* all of you. Anyway,ifyou're not into lengthy reports or waxing nostalgic,or,if I've alreadyrambled on to much for you,now's the time-you know the "D"rill.It's a little after 11PM and I've just returned from one of thebest evenings of fishing I've ever had. The sulphurs are hatching on myhome stream and tonight was a perfect evening. It's been raining for acouple of days,but not hard enough to trash the stream. This afternoon thesky cleared and the temperature was cool enough that the flies came offallevening instead of being concentrated into the last half hour of light.Fish were rising well to both duns and spinners,but they were nopushovers.These fish are fished over a lot,and since the stream's strictly C&R, theyare more than a little sophisticated. That sets the scene that I foundmyself in when John,my fishin' partner showed up. We'd thought he wasgoingto be stuck working,but he managed to free himself and caught up with meatabout 7:30.Now,for the waxing nostalgic/rod report part. Last summer,shortlyafter I joined this list, I decided that I wanted to build my own bambooflyrod. I asked FF@ for help and information. Although there were a few"nay-sayers",there were alot more of you who volunteered information andpointed me in the right direction. from FF@ I learned of the RodmakersListand the Classic Angler website. In response to an enquiry about where toget cane,Jim Stangowitz told me about George Maurer,inKutztown,Pa.,aboutthree hours east of me. After talking to George I decided to take therodbuilding course he offers,instead of going about it via trial and erroron my own. I've always been a great believer in the value of good,hands-oninstruction. John decided to take the course with me and we began weeklytrips to Kutztown at the beginning of February. Two weeks ago yesterdaymyrod(7'9",5wt.,brown-toned,varnished, downlocking Ballinger reelseat withbox elder insert,blued ferrules, agatine stripper,black snakes and tip topwith claret wraps) was finished and ready to fish. Unfortunately I had tobe out of town and so had to wait yet another week before I could fish it.Tonight marked the beginning of the second week of fishing with it. Aboutadozen fish, all small to medium sized browns had fallen to the new rod up'til tonight and I am slowly letting the rod teach me how to fishit,getting better with it each outing. Twenty years of "graphite timing"doesn't go away overnight, but I'm learning. John's schedule beingdifferent than mine,he finished his rod later,and tonight was his firstouting with it. Okay,here's the mushy part: if it hadn't been for thesupport and encouragement from FF@ and Rodmakers,and the informationaccessprovided by them as well,these rods would never have been built. Buildingacane rod is hard,and we might well have become daunted long before wemetGeorge and took his course. In fact,we might never have even *found*Georgeat all. (BTW, if you're considering learning to build a cane rod I highlyrecommend taking a course with one of the rodbuilders around the countrywho offer it,and,if you're near enough to Kutztown,Pa. I doubt you'll finda better teacher than George Maurer. He's not on the list,so he won't readthis,but you can tell him I said so.) I've got to tell you that there'snothing in my fishing experience that compares to the deep downsatisfaction of making a difficult cast,raising,hooking,landing andreleasing a good fish with a fly you've tied,on a rod you've builtyourself.Which brings me back to this evening. When John caught up with me Iwas in the process of landing the first fish of the evening,a nice, fat,14"brown that was the last in a line of 3 or 4 that were feeding along acurrent seam on the far side and towards the head of the pool I'd beenworking my way up through. As John worked his way into the next pooldownstream,I released the fish and continued to cast to the rest of thefish in that seam. The fish at the head of the seam was rising next to arock and under some overhanging branches. It was one of those dealswhereif you did everything exactly right you get maybe 12"-18" of drift beforethe fly began to drag. Of course if you didn't get it right,you'd be hungup on the rock,or in the branches. Okay,okay,if I hadn't done it right(fora change) I wouldn't be writing about it. I made the cast,the fishstruck,and,10 minutes later, turned out to be the best fish of the seasonso far,a 20" brown that I couldn't get my hand around. While I took thefish to the shallows to photograph and revive,I invited John to come up andwork the fish that were still rising in that same current seam. He didso,and soon was into what turned out to be a 16" brown, his first fish onhis new rod. I loaned him my net and when he landed the fish Iphotographedit for him before he released it.John stayed in that pool,and I moved upstream. As I waded into thenext pool I saw another angler about 50 yards upstream. As I watched,thewater exploded up and across the stream from him and I heard him shoutsomething. Shortly after that he disappeared around the bend upstream butsoon he came back around the bend, heading towards me with his flylinestretched *way* out in front of him. As he got closer I could see he didn'thave a net and he was connected to a very good fish. When he got withinearshot I offered my net and my service as photographer. When the fishwasfinally landed,it was ANOTHER 20" brown. John joined us and held the rodswhile I photographed and the angler revived the fish and released it.Introductions were made and I got his address so I can mail him thepictures. By then it was almost dark and we all headed off,the angler tofind his buddies,John and I back to the cars to get warm and headhome,grins and good feelings all around. As we walked back,the moon roseover the trees in a crystal clear sky,and we could still hear fish risingout in the darkness.This is the kind of evening I often can only find in a good book.It's rare that ALL these elements come together at the same time. Tome,this is what flyfishing is,and should be,all about.If you've stayed with me all this way,thanks. And thanks to all youfolks in FF@ and Rodmakers. You,too,are what flyfishing is,and should be,all about. I'll be in touch from time to time over the summer,but it ISfishing season after all,so I'll not be spending this much time in front ofthe little magic box very often. If you have comments or questions aboutwhat I've written,send them to me direct,as well as to the list,so I'll besure to read them. And a special thanks to all the "nay-sayers" who said itcouldn't be done,or that I was foolish to try,and to Jim,and Daryl,andBruce and Jon and all the others who said it could. It's going to be agreat season. Tight lines,David David Leschinsky sxl8@psu.edu "If I knew all erbout fishin' fer trout, I w'ud give it up andtackle sunthin' more int'restin' " from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 01:59:20 1996 Subject: Fishing Hello group,After 6 weeks of a building session, 7 days a week, burnout had arrived.The spring in the NW this year has been dreadful, no March Browns in theMckenzie. This may sound minor in the larger scheme of things but I hadalways used the March Browns to delineate between winter and nonwinter.Thiswas very disorienting on biological level. I had just found a flaw in a rod that was completed rendering itunsuitable on a coastal lake to verify that the fish were taking, the mad frenzy totossall that is important into the Ranger. Hmm.. raingear(still Oregon, we livein the stuff), wool socks, lucky fishin cap, lake fly boxes, Three FingerJack Hefedunkel, Yukon Jack(no hefedunkel), as yet untried new para rod,#1super Pflueger reel and spare spool, and the new read, Robert Rourk.Minutes after arrival I was feeling out the complex timing of a para,getting used to that peculiar hesitation they have on the backcast and thedelayed, long power impulse zinging line out to RISING FISH. Hot damn! Itwasstill cold but when dries are on the water can it feel like anything butspring? A few chubby rainbows later (and a couple of hefedunkels) all wasright with the world again. The frustration of constant building wasdrainingaway rapidly and life was beginning to move into focus.The next day Brian & I headed to Lake Creek as it always cleared quicklyand we were not dissapointed. A mix of rainbows and cutthroats awaitedus,again on dries. I will admit that after fishing only nymphs for 5 yrs I nowfish dries when success and prudence would not indicate their use. Ialwaysseem to swing to one extreme or another, a personality quirk that I havelearned to deal with but not master. The day was as perfect as it can be, willing fish who went by my rulesforonce, good company and good fishing poles. The above is by way of explanation concerning my recent bout ofgrumpinessas documented by way of my reading my posts lately. I was concernedabout therod as an end in itself when of course it is not. The rod is a tool tofacilitate fishing and a good rod simply makes the fishing more pleasant.Arod not fished is without purpose or soul.So next time I grouch out somebody kick me in the shins! I need to gofishing!I would hope that this finds everyone 'centered'(this is Eugene after all).A.J.ThramerFisherman who builds bamboo from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 06:03:05 1996 Subject: Re: 4' 4" banty Mark, I have made four of the 4'4"rods from the Planing Form and you are rightonthe money as fas as being a 5wt. J. Parker Thanks Jon, I am going to start on it this week. I'll let you know how itcomes out. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 06:08:22 1996 Subject: Re: Anybody know Walt Coaty? I was on a fishing trip this past weekend and ran into a old-timerodmaker by the name of Walt Coaty. Quite a character; could have stumbled out of a Robert Traver or Harry Middleton story. He hada nice little 6'3" rod he had built on a Paul Young taper that wasbeing donated to a raffle for the West Fork Sportsman's Club. (I took a chance but didn't win it.) He said he used to make 20 rods a year, but is now down to 2 because of health problems. Gave me plenty of advice. Has someold cane he wants to sell me. Anybody know this character?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. Hello Frank,walt lives up around Coon Valley Wisconsin, check with the fly shop inCoonValley they know him and he is there often. MarkQuebec from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 06:26:12 1996 Subject: Re: Orvis Rod In a message dated 96-05-29 21:48:50 EDT, you write: Orvis was not much help. Talked to a Pat Noonan three times. he was supposed to write me with info on both winding checks as well as reel seats but that was almost two months ago and I still haven't heard from him. May try one more time. Any suggestions on either Orvis winding checks or hexagonal checks would be appreciated. I'd like to redo this as close to Orvis as possible. FredHello Fred:Just a thought - I saw somewhere that Wes Jordan's family has opened ashop,I think in Manchestr, VT. They are reported to sell rod building supplies;perhaps they can help. Do not know what the name of the shop is. Regards, RTyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 07:19:17 1996 Subject: Re: Waterproofing finish =>Has anyone tried a waterproofing agent such as Thompsons Water Sealor=>equivalent. Would there be a problem putting Varnish on over this treatment?=> Keep up the good work. Tom========================================================================Tom. ..........When I put Thompson's Water Seal on some arbor timbers over my=patio, the local paint store told me NOT to try to put any finish on top of=the seal as it would not bond and would soon peel off. This may be very=dependent on the type of topcoat so a test would be prudent. Has anyone used one of the acrylic waxes (such as Future) to finish a rod? Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu TKirkpat@CLW.UNISYSGSG.COM from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 07:50:54 1996 Subject: First rod Hello all, I'm about to embark on my first rod, (thanks to R. Tyree). My question to the collective is : nodeless or not? TIATom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 08:28:14 1996 Subject: Re: Orvis Rod Fred, You too. I attempted to get an Orivs ferrule for a rod that I was repairing.A couple of dozen phone calls and 2 letters over 6 months and nothing.Theyapparently want nothing to do with us. Finally gave it up and made one. Regards, Don Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 96-05-10 08:47:08 EDT, you write: Also, where can I find one of the original windingchecks? Hello Fred: There was a builder at the BC meet in '94 who had such a winding checkon arod he had built. When he was asked where he got it, he answered,"Orvis".Never checked it out, though. If you find a source, please let us know. Thanks and Best Regards,Richard Tyree Orvis was not much help. Talked to a Pat Noonan three times. he was supposed to write me with info on both winding checks as well as reel seats but that was almost two months ago and I still haven't heard from him. May try one more time. Any suggestions on either Orvis winding checks or hexagonal checks would be appreciated. I'd like to redo this as close to Orvis as possible. Fred from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 08:44:17 1996 Subject: Re: First rod Tom, THe first rod will be a real trial even with expert help. If you can, makeit as simple as possible. Further, understanding nodes is what cane is allabout. I would recommend make it with nodes. Best of luck, Don Hello all, I'm about to embark on my first rod, (thanks to R. Tyree). My question to the collective is : nodeless or not? TIATom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 08:49:51 1996 Subject: Re: 4' 4" banty Could someone post the taper for the Banty that was in thePlaning Form...I'd sure like to see it! Mike - 1/2 a rod - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 09:06:53 1996 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper Richard seez... In case John does not make it to TTBBBQ, will have each item for otherstosee, use, practice with, etc. I am into my first nodeless rod and like the splicing block just fine - itisspring loaded and does not have to be removed from the vice for eachchange -just loosen the vice a bit and its ready to unload/reload. As for the "V" block, have minimum use of mine, but it works just greatanddoes indeed deal with the soft point of the bamboo apex. I think both items are solid progress. Thanks Richard!!! I'll be anxious to try each of the out. That's one of the things I'm really looking forward to about TBBBQ-II.The chance to be able to try different techniques, rods, hearing othersapproach to doing things, and of course finally being able to put aface to all email addresses! Speaking of which, who all is planning on being at TBBBQ-II??? Let meknow and I will start compiling a list of RODMAKERS attendees, and postit occasionally to keep everyone up to date. How about sending in yourname, where you're coming from, and what dates you plan on being inGrayling. If we have each others itinerary, it might help to set upencounters, a little fishing, or a few beers when nothing else is goingon. Okay, he's my info... Name: From: Dates:Mike Biondo driving from St. Louis Thur/pm - Mon/am Who else... Mike - making a list - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 09:45:39 1996 Subject: Re: Orvis Rod Fred, You too. I attempted to get an Orivs ferrule for a rod that I was repairing.A couple of dozen phone calls and 2 letters over 6 months and nothing.Theyapparently want nothing to do with us. Finally gave it up and made one. Regards, You forgot to sign your letter "YUPPIE WITH LOTS OF MONEY" I think that'sall ORVIS understands.Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 09:53:12 1996 Subject: Re: 4' 4" banty Could someone post the taper for the Banty that was in thePlaning Form...I'd sure like to see it! Mike - 1/2 a rod - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. 0-.038, 5-.046, 10-.059, 15-.062, 20-.069, 25-.077, 26-.079, 30- .084,35-.089, 40-.094 45-.101R.Hoeckstra listed an 11/64 ferrule for this rod Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 10:03:24 1996 Subject: Re: 4' 4" banty Thanks for posting the Banty taper Mark!!! Has anyone made this as a one-piece... Mike- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 10:59:08 1996 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu's message of 30-May-96 09:05 boundary=Boundary-2252569-0-0 --Boundary-2252569-0-0 TBBBQ Grayling: Thurs. night driving from Detroit, Bill Waara, Bill Waarajr. Return Sun. PM> --Boundary-2252569-0-0 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper CREN Richard seez... In case John does not make it to TTBBBQ, will have each item for otherstosee, use, practice with, etc. I am into my first nodeless rod and like the splicing block just fine - itisspring loaded and does not have to be removed from the vice for eachchange -just loosen the vice a bit and its ready to unload/reload. As for the "V" block, have minimum use of mine, but it works just greatanddoes indeed deal with the soft point of the bamboo apex. I think both items are solid progress. Thanks Richard!!! I'll be anxious to try each of the out. That's one of the things I'm really looking forward to about TBBBQ-II.The chance to be able to try different techniques, rods, hearing othersapproach to doing things, and of course finally being able to put aface to all email addresses! Speaking of which, who all is planning on being at TBBBQ-II??? Let meknow and I will start compiling a list of RODMAKERS attendees, and postit occasionally to keep everyone up to date. How about sending in yourname, where you're coming from, and what dates you plan on being inGrayling. If we have each others itinerary, it might help to set upencounters, a little fishing, or a few beers when nothing else is goingon. Okay, he's my info... Name: From: Dates:Mike Biondo driving from St. Louis Thur/pm - Mon/am Who else... Mike - making a list - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. --Boundary-2252569-0-0-- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 11:44:59 1996 Subject: Re: "V" Block Caliper In a message dated 96-05-30 11:51:34 EDT, you write: a few beers when nothing else is goingon. Come on Mike - get real - nothing going on in Grayrock?? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 13:00:53 1996 Subject: FW: Anybody know Walt Coaty? Frank,I do not know Walt Coaty personally but I have cast one of his rods and fished with his flys.The shop in Coon Valley is Spring Creek Angler and the owner is Dennis Graupe Phone 608/452-3430.---------- Subject: Re: Anybody know Walt Coaty? I was on a fishing trip this past weekend and ran into a old-timerodmaker by the name of Walt Coaty. Quite a character; could havestumbled out of a Robert Traver or Harry Middleton story. He hada nice little 6'3" rod he had built on a Paul Young taper that wasbeing donated to a raffle for the West Fork Sportsman's Club.(I took a chance but didn't win it.) He said he used to make 20 rods a year, but is now down to 2because of health problems. Gave me plenty of advice. Has someold cane he wants to sell me. Anybody know this character?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and aUniv Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. Hello Frank,walt lives up around Coon Valley Wisconsin, check with the fly shop inCoonValley they know him and he is there often. MarkQuebec from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 13:46:35 1996 Subject: TBBBQ-II Wayne seez, to what I sed... a few beers when nothing else is goingon. Come on Mike - get real - nothing going on in Grayrock?? Well okay...but even if something is going on, can westill have 'a few beers' ????? :-) Mike - I'm Thirsty - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 13:57:15 1996 Subject: TBBBQ-II Richard seez... Hi Mike: Just a suggestion, assuming someone is somewhat in charge alittlebit maybe. Do you think name tags would be a good idea? Just somestick-onlable types sould do. So many new faces to put with names! Might be a good idea to have some way to identify us RODMAKERS listers, from the rest of the rest of the folks that will bethere. As for someone in charge, I don't know but I would assumethat Ron Barch would be the one. Has anyone heard anymore about whether or not Harold Demerest isbring cane up to Grayling? I haven't had a chance to call Ron yet. Mike - Cane hardly wait - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 14:35:33 1996 Subject: Re: 4' 4" banty At 09:55 AM 5/30/96 CDT, you wrote:Thanks for posting the Banty taper Mark!!! Has anyone made this as a one-piece... Forgive my complete ignorance, but what the heck do you do with a fourfootlong rod. I have a "non-bamboo" five foot flyrod that is a really usefulsmall stream tool, but am darn curious about applications for a fourfooter. -Mark Devino- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 16:09:07 1996 Subject: RE: FW: Anybody know Walt Coaty? Walt Coaty lives in LaCrosse, WI on Avon Street (#1612). In normal timesthe publicaton of an address might constitute a breach of privacy;however,in the age of the internet his name is probably available to anyone with acomputer. I don't know him personally but I have seen some of his workandhe is a pro. Thomas O. Claflin, ProfessorDepartment of BiologyUniversity of Wisconsin-La CrosseLa Crosse, WI 54601TEL (608)785-8239FAX (608)785-6959 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 16:14:04 1996 Subject: Re: 4' 4" banty At 09:55 AM 5/30/96 CDT, you wrote:Thanks for posting the Banty taper Mark!!! Has anyone made this as a one-piece... Forgive my complete ignorance, but what the heck do you do with a fourfootlong rod. I have a "non-bamboo" five foot flyrod that is a really usefulsmall stream tool, but am darn curious about applications for a fourfooter. -Mark Devino- You do the same thing with the 4' 4" banty Mark, fish it and enjoy! Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 16:26:23 1996 Subject: Big Rod's I would like to make a comment about rods longer than eight and a halffeet inlenght. First is that what makes a big rod? I have not seen a definationasyet to what constitutes a big rod. Second, I have not made a rod over 8' 6"butI have fished with them for thirty years in Akaska and the Central Pacific,bothbamboo and graphite. I used a T&T 9'6" Bamboo Salmon Rod, 9 weight, foryearson Silvers and Steelhead and never had a bit of a problem with fishing itallday. The rod always did what it was designed to do, cast big flies in windandrain and tire big fish. I also fished a Orvis Shooting Star 9'6" for a 9 lineand was always amazed at how much line one could shoot out with thosebig guidesand that rod did not tire me either but I have tried to fish some other bigrodsthat felt like they would pitch me into the river if I got of balance alittle,so good balance is very important, I believe in a "Big Rod". I guess that Ihave always liked 9' 6" rods for the rivers that I have traditionaly fished,nowI am in Southern California (Don't ask, please), and the 7'6" to 8' 6" rodsseem fine for the fishing I can get to. Think I will build an even shorterone. Anyway I think that longer rods for heavier lines are great, I love em, heckwhat did the guys fly fish for salmon , steelhead and saltwater back whentheydid not have fiberglass rods. from looking at pictures of our forefathersandwith those big rods in hand it seems to me that they were not as big astheaverage angler is to day so modern real men otta be able to enjoy fishingbigbamboo rods on big water with big flies. Not real sure about bamboo speyrods, Ihave done it with the graphite but not the bamboo. Chuck from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 17:15:11 1996 Subject: TBBBQ-II Here's the list of attendees as of a few minutes ago... Name: From: Dates: Mike Biondo St. Louis, MO Thur/pm - Mon/amBill Waara Detroit, MI Thur/pm - Sun/pm Bill Waara Jr. Detroit, MI Thur/pm - Sun/pm Wayne Cattanach Casnovia, MI Tues/pm - Sun/pmMatt Cattanach Casnovia, MI Tues/pm - Sun/pmLyndi Cattanach Casnovia, MI Tues/pm - Sun/pmRichard Tyree Nashville, TN Thur/pm - Tue/pmOlaf Borge Chicago, IL Thur/pm - Sun/amPhil Rundhaugen Coon Valley WI Thur/pm - Sun/am The list is growing... Mike - who ALWAYS likes a party - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 20:37:59 1996 Subject: Casting rod tapers Following through on the spin rod thread, Herters, "Secret Fresh and Salt Water Fishing Tricks" has a number of casting tapers for bamboo. I'm sure that these are for bait casting rods, but the tapers should work for spinning as well. If there is enough interest I well post them here or by E-mail. Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 20:37:59 1996 Subject: Crappie pole? I've got a question for the list. A neighbor of mine found out that I build bamboo rods and decided that he would like to commission me tomake him two "crappie" poles. Yes, crappie poles. They need to be 14' to 15' long, no guides or reel seats, just a place to tie the line on the end. I'm I nuts for even thinking about trying to do this. Suggestions on a proposed taper would be appreciated? Jonathan Clarke from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 30 22:52:13 1996 Subject: Seasoning Cane Fellow listers, Much has been written on seasoning cane, but I don't really get it. Can youoffer a "top five list" on what to look for and how to evalute culms bycolour or determine moisture levels. The last culm I split seemed to havealot of curvature in the split pieces. also, the cane I purchased from Demarest seemed very poor, whatexpectationshould I have? Do we have any options. Does anyone have any premiumstock shouldyou expect rejectable pieces. Thanks, JB ----------------------------------------------------James Bond, Toronto, Canada - FAX 416-444-4196 Fledgling cane rod builder, fly tyer and collectorof modern collectable angling books. I don't fish enough, but who does? "On the road to Mandalay,Where the flyin' fishes play,An' the dawn comes up like thunder outer China'crost the Bay!" Rudyard Kipling 1865-1936---------------------------------------------------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 00:20:59 1996 Subject: ORVIS HARDWARE You might try CSE as he can duplicate almost any ferrule and it wouldseemthat he could duplicate a winding check also.A.J. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 00:27:14 1996 Subject: Re: Seasoning Cane Try Tuxedo cane from Stockton CA. The quality I have recieved has beensuper.They advertise in the Planing Form.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 00:28:31 1996 Subject: Re: Casting rod tapers Hi Johnathan,I'm very interested in the casting/spinning rod tapers. Hate to say it butif a friend won't flyfish he should at least have the satisfaction of usingcane.The crappie pole is an intriguing exercise in taper design, I will give ita try when the next run of 5 rods has been completed.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 02:55:58 1996 Subject: Re: Crappie pole? At 21:25 5/30/96 -0600, you wrote:I've got a question for the list. A neighbor of mine found out that I build bamboo rods and decided that he would like to commission me tomake him two "crappie" poles. Yes, crappie poles. They need to be 14' to 15' long, no guides or reel seats, just a place to tie the line on the end. I'm I nuts for even thinking about trying to do this. Suggestions on a proposed taper would be appreciated? Jonathan Clarke Jonathan,I've seen poles used for crappie and bream fishing used down south manyyears ago. Essentially they are just what you described, poles. They weremade out of the very tips of bamboo culms with no splitting or tapering.They were only sanded and varnished with no node treatment and were in 3pieces joined by very large ferrules. I don't know where you could findferrules that large now. In use a length of fishing line about aslong as the pole was tied to the end. A bobber was placed on the line a fewfeet above the baited hook. The pole was used to swing the line out anddropit into a pocket in the weeds, and when a fish took the bait it was yankedout of the water into the boat or on shore. This might be what yourneighbor is looking for and how intends to use it.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 07:19:21 1996 Subject: Re: Crappie pole? =>I've got a question for the list. A neighbor of mine found out that I=>build bamboo rods and decided that he would like to commission me tomake=>him two "crappie" poles. =>Jonathan Clarke =I've seen poles used for crappie and bream fishing used down south many=years ago. Essentially they are just what you described, poles. They were=made out of the very tips of bamboo culms with no splitting or tapering.=They were only sanded and varnished with no node treatment and were in3=pieces joined by very large ferrules. I don't know where you could find=ferrules that large now. Such poles are still available. I've seen then at the local Sports Authority. However I wonder if the neighbor is really looking for a "noodle rod." The glass and plastic ones have small (very Small) reels on them. Some have nothing more then apulley type device on the side to hold the line. Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu TKirkpat@CLW.UNISYSGSG.COM In use a length of fishing line about as=long as the pole was tied to the end. A bobber was placed on the line afew=feet above the baited hook. The pole was used to swing the line out and drop=it into a pocket in the weeds, and when a fish took the bait it was yanked=out of the water into the boat or on shore. This might be what your=neighbor is looking for and how intends to use it.=Jim== from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 08:54:41 1996 Subject: Re: Crappie pole? Kirkpatrick, Terry @ CLW wrote: =>I've got a question for the list. A neighbor of mine found out that I=>build bamboo rods and decided that he would like to commission me tomake=>him two "crappie" poles. =>Jonathan Clarke =I've seen poles used for crappie and bream fishing used down southmany=years ago. Essentially they are just what you described, poles. Theywere=made out of the very tips of bamboo culms with no splitting or tapering.=They were only sanded and varnished with no node treatment and werein 3=pieces joined by very large ferrules. I don't know where you could find=ferrules that large now. Such poles are still available. I've seen then at the local SportsAuthority. However I wonder if the neighbor is really looking for a "noodle rod." Theglass and plastic ones have small (very Small) reels on them. Some havenothing more then apulley type device on the side to hold the line. Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu TKirkpat@CLW.UNISYSGSG.COM In use a length of fishing line about as=long as the pole was tied to the end. A bobber was placed on the line afew=feet above the baited hook. The pole was used to swing the line out anddrop=it into a pocket in the weeds, and when a fish took the bait it wasyanked=out of the water into the boat or on shore. This might be what your=neighbor is looking for and how intends to use it.=Jim== people used to use crappie poles around here too.(missoula) they'd use them to work out beyond the shelf ice in the rivers for whitefish. now pretty much everyone uses long telescoping fiberglass poles. even though they werent split culm wroks of art, they were pretty i guess because they were so long and because they were bamboo. the fishing had a slow, pretty grace to it. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 09:01:01 1996 Subject: Re: Crappie pole? Dear Jonathan, I also believe that this is a case where you should not trytoimprove much on the work of the Great Rodmaker. Find a natural pole,flame itand dress it up as you wish, but don't get carried away! There is a man inour area who calls himself "The Colonial Angler" who fishes trout withsuchtackle. He dresses and fishes in the manner of an 18th century sportsman.Wehad him speak at our TU chapter recently. The guy was amusing andinformative, and slightly obnoxious. Among other things, he told us that areel was a poachers tool and no gentleman would fish with one.I believe I have his name right as Ken Reinhard, and he is affiliated withthe Donegal ( PA ) Chapter of TU. He has a book out, which should beavailable through The Anglers Art and probably others. If you can contacthimor get the book you will probably end up knowing more than you want toaboutsuch rods.Tom Smithwick from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 09:01:18 1996 Subject: Re: ORVIS HARDWARE DIXALEE@aol.com wrote: You might try CSE as he can duplicate almost any ferrule and it wouldseemthat he could duplicate a winding check also.A.J. I'm new and not familiar with "CSE". How do I contact? Also, what, where, when is this TBBBQ-II? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 09:01:56 1996 Subject: Re: Crappie pole? At 03:35 AM 5/31/96 -0400, you wrote:Jonathan,I've seen poles used for crappie and bream fishing used down south manyyears ago. Essentially they are just what you described, poles. They weremade out of the very tips of bamboo culms with no splitting or tapering.They were only sanded and varnished with no node treatment and were in3pieces joined by very large ferrules. I don't know where you could findferrules that large now. In use a length of fishing line about aslong as the pole was tied to the end. A bobber was placed on the line afewfeet above the baited hook. The pole was used to swing the line out anddropit into a pocket in the weeds, and when a fish took the bait it was yankedout of the water into the boat or on shore. This might be what yourneighbor is looking for and how intends to use it.Jim You mean they don't use this method everywhere in the world? That wastheonly way that I knew to fish until I was 16 or so, cept we used poles thatwere one piece, about 12' long. :-)--------------------John JohnsonAtlanta, GAjjohnson@netime.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 09:29:25 1996 Subject: Re: Crappie pole? Jonathan,I have not seen a bamboo pole for forty years, but when I was a smallboy in Detroit MI, they were very common -- 10-20 ft long, fished with alinetied to the end and a bobber. I never used one, but neighbor kids had them,and I remember them vividly. The cane was certainly not Tonkin. It hadclosely spaced, very prominent nodes. The ferrules were very crude, justpieces of seamed tubing. They ranged in price from two bits to a buck,depending on the length. I suspect your neighbor is in for sticker shockwhen he hears your quotation for a fifteen foot split Tonkin!Cabela's sells glass crappie poles for about twenty times what thecanejobs cost in my faraway youth. In Europe, pole fishing is a highlydevelopedart among warmwater anglers, and graphite poles costing hundreds ofdollarsare used. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 10:09:12 1996 Subject: Re: Casting rod tapers Following through on the spin rod thread, Herters, "Secret Fresh and SaltWater Fishing Tricks" has a number of casting tapers for bamboo. I'm surethat these are for bait casting rods, but the tapers should work forspinning as well. If there is enough interest I well post them here or byE- mail. Jonathan Clarke Might as well post them here. They could be added to Gordon's taper listas well. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 10:11:20 1996 Subject: Re: Crappie pole? Jonathan,I have not seen a bamboo pole for forty years, but when I was a smallboy in Detroit MI, they were very common -- 10-20 ft long, fished with alinetied to the end and a bobber. I never used one, but neighbor kids had them,and I remember them vividly. The cane was certainly not Tonkin. It hadclosely spaced, very prominent nodes. The ferrules were very crude, justpieces of seamed tubing. They ranged in price from two bits to a buck,depending on the length. I suspect your neighbor is in for sticker shockwhen he hears your quotation for a fifteen foot split Tonkin!Cabela's sells glass crappie poles for about twenty times what thecanejobs cost in my faraway youth. In Europe, pole fishing is a highlydevelopedart among warmwater anglers, and graphite poles costing hundreds ofdollarsare used. Yep, up to 15 meter (almost 50 feet) long and costing up to US$2000.(Although you cannot call that a "Crappie pole" anymore - it's more a whitefish competition rod) Richard== The Flyfishing Dutchman == from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 11:30:21 1996 Subject: Re: Casting rod tapers rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu wrote: Following through on the spin rod thread, Herters, "Secret Fresh andSaltWater Fishing Tricks" has a number of casting tapers for bamboo. I'msurethat these are for bait casting rods, but the tapers should work forspinning as well. If there is enough interest I well post them here or byE- mail. Jonathan Clarke Might as well post them here. They could be added to Gordon's taper listas well. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net I have about 10-12 casting rod tapers that were developed by a rod maker in Illinois during the 50's. Give me a day or two to dig them out and I will send them to you. I am interested in knowing if anyone out there knew the developer of these tapers. His name was Cecil Buist, and I was fortunate enough to buy out the remains of his shop including all of his fly rod and casting/spinning rod tapers; even some pre-embargo cane of which I still have some. I am saving it for that last one I make. Ralph Moon from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 12:33:05 1996 Subject: Re: crappie rod I've seen an older Oriental guy fishing for brook trout in a freestoneriver here in NH, using a very long (15+') cane rod. He was dropping worms into hard to reach places, and was pretty good at it. It waspleasing to watch; I wouldn't mind having one of those rods.... Russell Gelinasgelinas@ekman.sr.unh.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 13:17:54 1996 Subject: Re: Crappie pole? Kirkpatrick, Terry @ CLW wrote: =>I've got a question for the list. A neighbor of mine found out that I=>build bamboo rods and decided that he would like to commission me tomake=>him two "crappie" poles. =>Jonathan Clarke =I've seen poles used for crappie and bream fishing used down southmany=years ago. Essentially they are just what you described, poles. Theywere=made out of the very tips of bamboo culms with no splitting ortapering.=They were only sanded and varnished with no node treatment and werein 3=pieces joined by very large ferrules. I don't know where you could find=ferrules that large now. Such poles are still available. I've seen then at the local SportsAuthority. However I wonder if the neighbor is really looking for a "noodle rod." Theglass and plastic ones have small (very Small) reels on them. Somehavenothing more then apulley type device on the side to hold the line. Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu TKirkpat@CLW.UNISYSGSG.COM In use a length of fishing line about as=long as the pole was tied to the end. A bobber was placed on the line afew=feet above the baited hook. The pole was used to swing the line out anddrop=it into a pocket in the weeds, and when a fish took the bait it wasyanked=out of the water into the boat or on shore. This might be what your=neighbor is looking for and how intends to use it.=Jim== people used to use crappie poles around here too.(missoula) they'd use them to work out beyond the shelf ice in the rivers for whitefish. now pretty much everyone uses long telescoping fiberglass poles. even though they werent split culm wroks of art, they were pretty i guess because they were so long and because they were bamboo. the fishing had a slow, pretty grace to it. Who e-mailed from Missoula? I used to go there a lot. Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 15:48:33 1996 Subject: Re: crappie rod I have a photocopy from a book "How to Build and Repair Your Own FishingRods", by G. Lawton Moss, published by Technical Press 1969, which tellshow to build this type of pole. This construction does NOT use ferrules,but just drills out the end of small diameter tonkin cane (yes, it's tonkin fromsplitting. The othe aspect of these poles is that the tonkin is drilledout and made hollow in the lower sections. The tip is just like a regularsplit cane rod. I was writing up a full description based on the book, but haven'tcompleted it yet. If there is enough interest I'll post it on my web siteor something. Let me know! I even managed to find a local surce for the small diameter tonkin to makethese poles, so I bet the material could be found in a number of places.And the price was super inexpensive! Question is, If I put a fly on the end of the line, can I use it inflyfishing only waters? Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 16:14:35 1996 Subject: Re[2]: Dip Tubes Whoops, sent the postpone message to the wrong address, A thousand lashes with a noodle rod...Sorry! BTW, I have a question regarding the dip tube thread; Darryl, I like the valve / stationary rod idea. What type of valve are you using to drain the varnish, and how do you control the flow rate? Regards, lloyd.cross@clorox.comLDCross3@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 16:42:31 1996 Subject: G. Griffiths Dickerson Rod Raffle 6/1 FWIW [for what it's worth]: Mr. George Griffiths is widely recognized as being instrumental in thefoundingof Trout Unilimited. The first organizational meeting of TU took place atGeoge's home - "The Barbless Hook" - on the banks of Michigan's AuSableRiver,east of Grayling. George, who recently celebrated his *95th* birthday, has generouslydonated hispersonal Dickerson cane flyrod to the Grayling area's George MasonChapter ofTrout Unlimited. George Mason TU is raffling the rod, with the proceeds togoto AuSable River restoration projects. The Dickerson is an "8014", 8 foot, 2-piece, 2-tip rod in good condition. Therod, built in 1948, has been personalized to George Griffiths. The chapterwillbe selling a maximum of 500 tickets @$10 each. Only about 100 ticketsremain.The drawing is Saturday evening [tomorrow] at the George Mason Chaper ofTroutUnlimited annual banquet here in Grayling, Michigan. If anyone has missed out so far and would like to purchase one or moretickets,we'd be happy to run them on your charge card through our shop and mailyou thestubs [and maybe the rod!]. If interested, phone [517] 348-5844 and ask fly shop. The fellows there will know how to handle things. Thanks & regards, Steve Southard~~ The Fly FactoryGrayling, Michigan Home of TBBBQ II 102130.461@compuserve.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 19:41:38 1996 Subject: Notice of Sale Small company in Colorado is interested in Selling complete bamboo rodbuilding inventory, machines, cane, ferrules,...............................................Looking for a buyer for theentire inventory and equipment. Tom KingKOTH FLY FISHING Co.1-800-347-4670 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 19:57:54 1996 Subject: Re: Crappie pole? You mean they don't use this method everywhere in the world? That wastheonly way that I knew to fish until I was 16 or so, cept we used polesthatwere one piece, about 12' long. :-)--------------------John JohnsonAtlanta, GAjjohnson@netime.com Yep... If I'm not mistaken, this is a fishin' pole! (With a nod to Wayne's"The difference between a rod and a pole is about a thousand dollars"statement!) Larry BlanDisplaced Mississipian from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 31 20:42:40 1996 Subject: TTBBQ Plan to be there Saturday! Ken Rongey...