from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 01:43:28 1996 Subject: Re: Anybody cast a Paul Young Para-15? In a message dated 96-04-30 21:55:50 EDT, you write: .Schweibert also notes that some of the PetM para rods had staggeredferrules, i.e. the butt section was significantly shorter than the tip. Iwonder how this relates to A.J.'s earlier comment about the lower ferrulebeing right in the way in a three-piece para? Have builders experimentedwith staggered ferrules on any tapers, para or otherwise? There'sanothervariable to plug into the program... Hi Rodger,The stagerred ferrule was not a neccessary part of my para tapers. PMthought it was and I won't argue with them. The acknowleged masters ofthepara tapers was Payne and Young neither thought the stagered ferrule wasneeded. The most obvious problem with staggered ferrules is A) onehelluvaferrule plug and B) the public won't buy them. The biggest problem is B).This is still a business and if the bamboo buying public won't buy it youcan't keep producing them. A para rod has a flexible lower 1/3, a stiff mid 1/3 and a reasonablystouttip to deliver the power. The tip is always a compromise. PY's para's werereasonably close to this ideal but he realized that a rod had to be pleasantto use or it would not fly(see B above). PM's para's are much closer to themaximum taper and are ALOT harder to use. It can become comical to see anewcane rod enthusiast use a PM without a bit of coaching. Even now Ihesitateto send out a para rod as they are disagreeable to some people. I havetradedthem back for a dry fly taper on more than one occasion. I am happy to doitas the purchaser at least gave it a try.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 01:46:23 1996 Subject: Re: Bamboo Convert Welcome to the real world of bamboo. Once the bug bites you it is almostimpossible to shake. When sell all of your graphite because it is 'missingsomething' the disease has progressed nicely.A.J.Thramer from INFOSYS!INFOSYSPO!BWATKINS@msatt.attmail.com Wed May 106:29:41 1996 Subject: Re: RODMAKERS You should still be okay Bill, the list has just been realquiet today. Yup. it looks ok. Sorry to bother you. Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 06:50:21 1996 Subject: Re: wet cane -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- TerryPayne did in fact soak his cane---the main reason was Jim made hisown saw blades for the beveler from high carbon steel which does nothold up to friction well at all. The blades woud dull after only a fewstrips were cut---unless the cane was damp. Leonard also did the same.Don't forget this was before carbide blades were developed. High carbonhad to be used account of the set of the teeth of the blade----Highspeed steel teeth cannot be set as a carbon blade can, they will break.Jed -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Wednesday, 24-Apr-96 06:04 PM From: Ackland Terence \ Internet: (hexagon@odyssee.net) Subject: wet cane I read with interest last week on the list about Paynes method ofsoakinghis bamboo in water for 24 hours and I decided to investigate. It is true Payne did soak the cane but it was Nellie Payne, Jim'scousin,she collected the scrap bamboo and made baskets and carpet beaters. Soaking cane is an old basketmaking trick I can remember doing it atschool, or was it reform school. Actually bamboo was soaked in water for 24 hrs prior to the phenolicimpregnation proccess. This soaking swelled the fibers makingpressureimpregnation of the water soluble resins easier. It was Wes Jordan not Payne that developed the phenolic impregnationproccess for flyrods but the proccess had been in use for years inotherapplications. Regards,Terry Ackland -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 06:51:19 1996 Subject: Re: simple tapers -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Thursday, 25-Apr-96 05:02 PM From: Ackland Terence \ Internet: (hexagon@odyssee.net) Subject: Re: simple tapers Original Terry,=I would like one question answered from you computer kids,==Does any of the computer programs take into account the moisturecontentand=temper of the bamboo? unless this is addressed nothing will makesense.==regards,=Terry Ackland=How do you figure out your tapers? Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu Terry, I started building garrison tapers like everyone else using the sameheattreatment, same everything. It did not take too many rods before Istarteddeveloping my own tapers and equipment. I took the trouble to askseniorfly fishermen who fished bamboo, I handled a few classic rods andtook it from there. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to put together a roddespitewhat you read on this list. I keep my Garrisons forms and for some strange reason his nodestaggeringthe rest I have discarded, developing my own equipment andproccesses. The book is a good introduction, there are easier ways to buildbambooflyrods. I think it was Sam Carlson who said, "Garrison maderodbuildingso difficult for himself, if it was that difficult there would be nobamboo rods". I have been building rods without getting involved with with any ofthebuilding groups and newsletters and I believe it has been verybeneficial.I think that being on a list like this is OK for your first couple ofrodsbut if your not careful you get sucked in to believing that there isonlyone way to build a flyrod. Right from the start I decided to build all my own fittings which Ido but mine. Regards,Terry BRAVO TERRY-----Tis what it is all about!!!!!!Jed -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 07:09:33 1996 Subject: Salt water rod I have in my possession a bamboo 'boat rod' for salt water. It's about four feet long, has double guides and is falling apart. All of the glue has deteriorated and the pieces are splitting apart. I have never even built a plastic rod, so I need some advice. 1. Is it possible to re-glue it without removing the handle? In other words shoot epoxy in between the splines with a syringe or something? Thehandle is solid wood, and I suspect it is glued on. 2. What should I use to clean it up? It's spent the last 20 years in a basement and is a little dusty and moldy. I don't want to use somethingthat is going to damage it. I'm not planning on using the rod, it just has sentimental value. Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 07:27:46 1996 Subject: Re: Anybody cast a Paul Young Para-15? the Castleconnel was a two-piece spliced greenheart rod made byEnright " on the banks of the Shannon" (presumably in the village ofCastleconnel itself.) Taverner recommends using this 16 foot rod as amodel thebutt section and is a very effective spey-casting rod. Other sources puttheweight of these rods at 30+ ounces, so the kick may have been a functionofthe considerable rod momentum acting on the line through the relativelythick tip. Whether the Castleconnel was the ancestor of the parabolictaperor related to it, I don't know.Roger,Although Geo. L. Herter must be taken with a cardiac threatening grain of salt, he does mention the Castleconnel Kick rod in his book on rodbuilding. He too describes it as a long British salmon rod; but he adds a description (and drawing) of the taper, i.e., stiff butt, weak mid, stiff tip, which provides the "kick". Sounds like a parabolic (not a "modified parabolic" as is used today) to me. I'd believe that Ritz (who was a marketer, par excellence) promoted the parabolic; he surely didn't inventit. Best regards,Reed Curry from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 07:35:21 1996 Subject: RE: Salt water rod =I have in my possession a bamboo 'boat rod' for salt water. It's about four =feet long, has double guides and is falling apart. All of the glue has=deteriorated and the pieces are splitting apart. I have never even built a=plastic rod, so I need some advice.==1. Is it possible to re-glue it without removing the handle? In otherwords =shoot epoxy in between the splines with a syringe or something? Thehandle=is solid wood, and I suspect it is glued on. If you're not going to use it, you can glue it back togetherwithout doing much to it. However, I'd feel better if I hadrestored a rod to fishing order. It would take a littlelonger, but it would be 'whole' when you looked at it. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 08:47:28 1996 Subject: RE: Salt water rod If you're not going to use it, you can glue it back togetherwithout doing much to it. However, I'd feel better if I hadrestored a rod to fishing order. It would take a littlelonger, but it would be 'whole' when you looked at it. Yes, yes. Good. Excellent. I agree completely. What should I do differently? I assume I should remove the handle. If it's glued on, should I just plane it off? Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 09:03:15 1996 Subject: Re: wet cane In a message dated 96-05-01 07:47:21 EDT, you write: TerryPayne did in fact soak his cane---the main reason was Jim made hisown saw blades for the beveler from high carbon steel which does nothold up to friction well at all. The blades woud dull after only a fewstrips were cut---unless the cane was damp. Leonard also did the same.Don't forget this was before carbide blades were developed. High carbonhad to be used account of the set of the teeth of the blade----Highspeed steel teeth cannot be set as a carbon blade can, they will break.Jed Hello Jed:There is at least one current maker who soaks his cane strips beforeinitialstraightening. He is John Bokstrom, of BC, Canada. See The Planing Form# 38, Mar/Apr, 1996 issue for particulars. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 09:19:36 1996 Subject: RE: Salt water rod =Yes, yes. Good. Excellent. I agree completely. What should I do differently?=I assume I should remove the handle. If it's glued on, should I just plane=it off?==Bill Take the rod out and look at it. How much do you WANT to keep original? How much would it be practical to keep original? Do you have access to replacement parts? How are the guides? Are they all there? Other hardware? How is the handle. You can repair cork handles -- do you want to. A little soap and water will clean up a soiled handle. Get a box to keep all the stuff in. (Anything I don't put in a box RIGHT AWAY runs off and hides in my cluttered work room.) If you're going to re-glue the rod anyway, you might be able to save the handle by heating it until the glue gives way. I've not done this so you should talk to some of the others. You can make most of the tools. If you're not going to change the taper, you won't need any new planes or anything like that. There's a book on refinishing Bamboo Fly rods that might help a little._Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook_ -- By Michael SinclairAlthough it's generally about fly rods, the part about actually restoration is fairly general and could be applied to anything. Good Luck.Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 10:52:00 1996 Subject: New member, need help, where do I start I want to refinish my South Bend 9 foot, Is there a FAQ and is there anyonethat I can correspond with during this project. Shawn RaymondChelsea, Michigan*********************************************************************Shawn Raymond**Oracle DBA**763-5278**http://www- personal.umich.edu/~srraymon/index.htm and* *http://www.gtii.com/fish/michfish.htm********************************************************************* from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 10:52:00 1996 Subject: New member, need help, where do I start I want to refinish my South Bend 9 foot, Is there a FAQ and is there anyonethat I can correspond with during this project. Shawn RaymondChelsea, Michigan*********************************************************************Shawn Raymond**Oracle DBA**763-5278**http://www- personal.umich.edu/~srraymon/index.htm and* *http://www.gtii.com/fish/michfish.htm********************************************************************* from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 11:54:56 1996 Subject: rodwinding Does anyone know where I can order a small roll (100 yrds) of size A silk thread that is black and maroon varigated. Also a small roll (100 yrds) of size A black and orange varigated thread. Thank you. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 12:02:40 1996 Subject: Re: rodwinding Mac,You might try Angler's Workshop in Woodland WAhttp://www.anglersworkshop.com I remembertheir catalog having "new" Japanese silk, but not sure of colors. Hope thishelps.Len Gorney lsgorney@rs01.kings.eduhttp://www.kings.edu/~lsgorney/index.htm from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 12:55:45 1996 Subject: Re: rodwinding Does anyone know where I can order a small roll (100 yrds) of size A silkthread that is black and maroon varigated. Also a small roll (100 yrds) ofsize A black and orange varigated thread. Thank you. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu Bob Corsetti tel 603-886-0411 has a small stock of black/orangevarigatedsilk size 00 left over from Granger Rod Co. --Terje Tveras, Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 13:05:05 1996 Subject: Re: rodwinding Hi Len, The Angler's Workshop catalog doesn't have these colors unfortunately. Maybe someone has a roll tucked away in their workshop somewhere outthere? Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu-------------Original Text from lsgorney@rs01.kings.edu (Len Gorney), on 5/1/96 9:55 AM:Mac,You might try Angler's Workshop in Woodland WA http://www.anglersworkshop.com I remembertheir catalog having "new" Japanese silk, but not sure of colors. Hope this helps.Len Gorney lsgorney@rs01.kings.eduhttp://www.kings.edu/~lsgorney/index.htm The following was included as an attachement. Please use UUDECODEto retrieve it. The original file name was 'ATTRIBS.BND'. begin 666 ATTRIBS.BNDM0F5Y;VYD(%!A8VME9"!!='1R:6)U=&5S`$%45%))*```````4F4Z("!R;V1WM:6YD:6YG````````````````````````````````````````````````````M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````M`$-(4DE35$]02$52($,@34- $3U=%3$P`````````````````````````````M``````````````````````````````````!+834Y*W!!=59L````````````M````````0F5Y;VYD(%!R;W!R:65T87)Y($1A=&$:`````!$`````````#0!LM`@``````````````````````````3W)I9VEN86P@=&5X=#X!1G)O;2!L4!R2DL(&]N(#4O,2\Y-B`YM.C4U($%- .@I- 86,L"B`@66]U(&UI9VAT('1R>2!!;F=L97(G2]I;F1E>"YH=&T**`$#`#X!M(@$"``(````&``(``0`!`#X``````````@`_```!````````./\```````"0M`0``````````35,@4V%N``$`GP"B``$`MHP"W`````````````````&0``:0!`4@#`>P$`9`&`30(`=@)`7P+`2`-`Subject: RE: rodwinding =Does anyone know where I can order a small roll (100 yrds) of size A silk=thread that is black and maroon varigated. Also a small roll (100 yrds)of =size A black and orange varigated thread. Thank you. Cabela's carries thread in their rod building catalog, but I don't think It's silk. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 14:18:55 1996 Subject: RE: Boat Rod Rehab It should be fairly easy to put the rod back together. Not seeing the rod,these suggestions are of course rather broad. Very helpful. Thank you. Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 14:30:52 1996 Subject: RE: Salt water rod Take the rod out and look at it. How much do you WANT to keep original?How much would it be practical to keep original? Do you have access toreplacement parts? How are the guides? Are they all there? Otherhardware? How is the handle. You can repair cork handles -- do you wantto. A little soap and water will clean up a soiled handle. Thanks. I won't forget to keep a box handy for the parts. Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 14:57:36 1996 Subject: Temoering cane - Why? To all, Have tried a number of experiments to determine the "best" way to tempercane. Have used pipe ovens, direct flaming and convection/recirculationovens @ all kinds of temps/times. Spent a sack full of time and $'s andstill have no definitive answer. I, like a lot or all of us, believe thattempering somehow effects the stiffness of the cane. Unfortunaltey,severalof my experiments show that tempered cane is actually less stiff thanuntempered cane. The tests I used were:1] A deflection test where a spline was raised 45 degrees from ahorizontal base and distance between the spline tip and the base wasmeasured. A weight of 145 grains was placed on the spline and theresultingdistance was again measured. This was done for 5 splines which had beentempered by various methods. A 6th spline was left untempered as acontrol.The control spline did better than several of the others. So a second testwas set up.2] A set test using the same system as above but leaving the weight inplace weight was placed and removed. This test was designed to measure theset arod might take when fighting a good fish. Again, the control (untempered)spline did better than several of the tempered pieces.3] An oscillation test: This test was designed to measure the dampingcharateristics of the spline. The spline was held in a horizontal position.The very end was pulled downward 6" by a knife edge as the knife edgewasslowly slid down the spline till the spline sprang away. This test wasabandoned as the spline would not aways oscillate in a true verticalfashion. The above tests were replicated by Tom Fulks of Anacortes, Wa andreportedto the Merritt group last weekend. That group also did not have an answerasto what is the best method to temper cane or how they determined what isthebest method although to a man they seemed to believe that it must betempered. ( from a poll taken from the audience, it seems like the averagetime/temp.was 350 degrees F @ 15-20 minutes. It was noted however that thisdependedon whether you were located in a wet{coastal} or desert{central Idaho}climate. from the challenges to technique and tapers I have seen for the pastwhile,is there anybody out there that has done similar tests or any kind oftesting to determine the "best method" or is tempering one more of thosethings that should be turfed from the rod makers skills. Regards, Don Andersenwho remains slightly tempered but not yet flamed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 15:38:21 1996 Subject: Blue reel seat A friend found a Montague bamboo rod, in pretty nice shape, in a store that was using it as a decoration. He bought it. He, his wife, and I all want to know if the bright blue filler on the reel seat was standard or if someone with a warped sense of humor got after it with a paintbrush. Have any of you rod collectors seen such a thing? John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 15:48:18 1996 Subject: re: Blue reel seat I've seen some reel perty reel seats by Montague that were blue and also some pink ones. They look like plastic to me.-------------Original Text from "John Carter" , on 5/1/96 1:31 PM:A friend found a Montague bamboo rod, in pretty nice shape, in a store that was using it as a decoration. He bought it. He, his wife, and I all want to know if the bright blue filler on the reel seat was standard or if someone with a warped sense of humor got after it with a paintbrush. Have any of you rod collectors seen such a thing? John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 16:59:48 1996 Subject: Blue reel seat I want to know if the bright blue filler on the reel seat wasstandard? Montague was only one of many production rod companies that tookadvantage of the new high-tech synthetic materials available after WWII for use in making reel seats. Montague used several colors of this Bakelite material, and usually tried to match it to the color of the wraps on the rods. The Blue you mention was common on the Sunbeam, Blue Streak and Clippermodels. Dick Spurr Centennial Classic SalesThe Classic Angler: http://www.gorp.com/bamboo.htmThe Kingfisher's Kingdom: http://www.kingfisher.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 18:09:29 1996 Subject: Marker or Builder ? Looking for comments. For years I have felt that a person whomanufactures the main component in a rod was a maker and that he maderods.On the other hand a person that bought the main component of a rodassembledor built rods. Perhaps Leonard started it by stamping his reel seats H. L.Leonard 'maker'. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 18:20:20 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules I was recently "given" a rod in good condition, except for the ferrules. For some reason, several the ferrules are loose and I would like to reglue them. Simple questions: Can you please give me some CLUES to which GLUES you prefer for this process.I am also considering replacing the ferrules....so I might need a source for them (they have one step down). Any ideas?? I'm new to this and couldn't find how to use the archives.TIA Tim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 18:30:50 1996 Subject: Re: rodwinding In a message dated 96-05-01 13:51:23 EDT, you write: Does anyone know where I can order a small roll (100 yrds) of size A silkthread that is black and maroon varigated. Also a small roll (100 yrds)ofsize A black and orange varigated thread. Thank you. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.eduHello Mac: Dick Spurr's Classic Chronicle has several colors silk size 00, includingO/Bvarigated avail on 980-yd spools. Try ph 970-243-8780 / fax 6503 orspurr@kingfisher.com Regards,R Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 18:52:23 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules I have used Epoxy, not the quick dry type. It seems to work well. I have heard there are some "secrets" to tightening loose ferrules, that some of the more experienced rodmakers might know. I have always removed them first, which can be very difficult depending on what type of glue was used previously. Be careful if you use heat. I once heated one up too much on a partitioned ferrule and it shot across the room like a bullet. Unfortunately I was at the kitchen stove and not out in a shop or garage away from witnesses. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu-------------Original Text from LANE@dsa.unt.edu, on 5/1/96 4:13 PM:I was recently "given" a rod in good condition, except for the ferrules. For some reason, several the ferrules are loose and I would like to reglue them. Simple questions: Can you please give me some CLUES to which GLUES you prefer for this process.I am also considering replacing the ferrules....so I might need a source for them (they have one step down). Any ideas?? I'm new to this and couldn't find how to use the archives.TIA Tim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 19:57:25 1996 Subject: Re:Apology (was Para-15) In a message dated 96-05-01 08:21:33 EDT, you write: 'd believe that Ritz (who was a marketer, par excellence) promoted the parabolic; he surely didn't inventit.Dear Reed et al, I owe you all an apology for shoddy scholarship. The inf I cited re:Castleconnel rods was not from Taverner, but from an earlier British bookcalled Salmon and Trout Angling, for which I can't give the author,publisheretc because all I have is a bundle of xeroxed pages from an old librarycopy.Sorry.Also, in reading farther in Schweibert's "Iconography..." chapter, ESquotes some presumably knowledgeable person who said that Paul Youngandothers were building para tapers (by whatever name) before Ritz's bicycleaccident. The "Icononography..." piece is incredibly dense, covering dozensof makers and hundreds of designs and models, and it is hard for aneophytelike me to make sense of it. ES does say that the Para-15 was Young'spersonal favorite.Which brings me to a question that relates to actions, marketing, andcane for the Graphite Generation -- what about five-strip designs? EScarefully damns them with faint praise while acknowledging theworkmanship ofCrompton, Uslan, and Wire. If/when I try to build a rod, I am tempted totrya pent. Any experience out there?-- Roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 21:01:18 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules Tim: To re-set your ferrules without removing them;Try heating the ferrules GENTLY and SLOWLY over an alcohol lamp or somesuchdevice. Be very careful, this is a "feels about right" type of operation.If you heat the ferrule to quikly, or to a high temp., you will get a hissingsound, glue bubbling out from under the ferrule, etc. Go slow, and when you think the heat has released the bond of the glue, push down gently on the ferrule with a gloved hand (or whatever feels comfortable) to re-seat itand hang on till'it cools. Be careful not to bend the cane as you push because youwill cause the rod to set crooked. If you try this method and it fails, then go removal and re-glueing of the ferrule. Remember, to much heat to fastwill not only ruin what glue is there, but you also stand the chance of delaminatingand/or scorching your cane (stay off the kitchen stove). This holds true forferrule removal as well. Careful and good luck...Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 1 22:43:24 1996 Subject: Re: wet cane -- [ From: Jed Dempsey * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- TerryPayne did in fact soak his cane---the main reason was Jim made hisown saw blades for the beveler from high carbon steel which does nothold up to friction well at all. The blades woud dull after only a fewstrips were cut---unless the cane was damp. Leonard also did the same.Don't forget this was before carbide blades were developed. High carbonhad to be used account of the set of the teeth of the blade----Highspeed steel teeth cannot be set as a carbon blade can, they will break.Jed -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Wednesday, 24-Apr-96 06:04 PM From: Ackland Terence \ Internet: (hexagon@odyssee.net) Subject: wet cane I read with interest last week on the list about Paynes method ofsoakinghis bamboo in water for 24 hours and I decided to investigate. It is true Payne did soak the cane but it was Nellie Payne, Jim'scousin,she collected the scrap bamboo and made baskets and carpet beaters. Soaking cane is an old basketmaking trick I can remember doing it atschool, or was it reform school. Actually bamboo was soaked in water for 24 hrs prior to the phenolicimpregnation proccess. This soaking swelled the fibers makingpressureimpregnation of the water soluble resins easier. It was Wes Jordan not Payne that developed the phenolic impregnationproccess for flyrods but the proccess had been in use for years inotherapplications. Regards,Terry Ackland -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- HI JED,I'd argue with you over the wet bamboo, have you ever tried to cut wetlumber with a saw? Payne's cutters were very simple affairs, they were made to be thrownaway.He used a punch and die to blank out small saws of possibly 1 1/2 in. dia.then they were heat treated. It is very difficult to find out just what these guys did, back when bamboowas king all rodmakers had their secrets, and when composites camealong theinterest in bamboo almost vanished. All these rodmakers died with theirsecrets and it is just a matter of re discovering the medium. I find it amusing that these guys with their laptops come along and ignore150 years or split bamboo rodmaking by trying to suggest that they candesign the perfect rod. I feel the perfect rod is in the processing of thecane. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 01:34:22 1996 Subject: Re:Apology (was Para-15) At 08:32 PM 5/1/96 -0400, you wrote: Which brings me to a question that relates to actions, marketing, andcane for the Graphite Generation -- what about five-strip designs? EScarefully damns them with faint praise while acknowledging theworkmanship ofCrompton, Uslan, and Wire. If/when I try to build a rod, I am tempted totrya pent. Any experience out there?--Roger No building experience, but many years ago I had the opportunity to cast acouple of Frank Wire rods(he was an Oregonian who at one time was on theOregon Fish and Wildlife Comission) and was not terribly impressed. Thoughtthey were a bit "noodly", as I imagine a typical Brit wet fly rod to be. AHardy Phantom of the same era was by contrast quite fast.Mike in PDX from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 02:05:34 1996 Subject: para rods I would like to offer what I believe a para rod action is: top 1/3 of the rodis strong but not overpowering, a fine balance between tippet protectionandline delivery. The middle third of the rod is very stiff and the butt 1/3 isthe working area of the rod. In extreme examples the butt dimensionsactualyregress. The rod works like a spear thrower. The flexible lower levertransmits power through the stiff middle lever where it is amplified, thispower is delivered to the tip where a good design bears fruit or a poordesign is scrapped.I have had the advantage of building and designing these rods. Not on thecomputer but in cane where it counts. Some of the rods are so severe inaction that they are offered only to my old customers who have a trackrecord of knowing how to use them. Rods that flex to the reelseat withoutaslow actioned bone in their body. Man I love parabolics, versatile,powerfuland exotic.The Granger tapers were moderatly parabolic also and they had thereputation for being very user friendly. A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 06:07:46 1996 Subject: Talk about marketing Hello all, I saw an advertisement in the latest Flyfisherman. It was for Garrison Taper Graphite Rod, inc or something like that. It states that Garrison's tapers have proven themselves and now you can experience the feel without the huge expense of cane. I read it as the tapers, not bamboo, gives it the special feel. What a bunch of dopes. Has anyone seen these or even tried them? Maybe, bamboo is making more of a sound than we realize. laterTom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 08:07:53 1996 Subject: Re: Blue reel seat John, the bright blue seat filler was original as were bright red ones.Montique used a variety of fillers.Clark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. Street.Zion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext. 270c-davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 08:08:05 1996 Subject: Re: para rods I would like to offer what I believe a para rod action is: top 1/3 of therodis strong but not overpowering, a fine balance between tippet protectionandline delivery. The middle third of the rod is very stiff and the butt 1/3 isthe working area of the rod. In extreme examples the butt dimensionsactualyregress. The rod works like a spear thrower. The flexible lower levertransmits power through the stiff middle lever where it is amplified,thispower is delivered to the tip where a good design bears fruit or a poordesign is scrapped.I have had the advantage of building and designing these rods. Not on thecomputer but in cane where it counts. Some of the rods are so severe inaction that they are offered only to my old customers who have a trackrecord of knowing how to use them. Rods that flex to the reelseatwithout aslow actioned bone in their body. Man I love parabolics, versatile,powerfuland exotic.A.J. As an owner of one of A.J.s fast parabolics (8'6" for #5/6) I can wellunderstandhis enthusiasm for the rod. I suspect my rod does not have one of the moresevereactions. Nevertheless, it has quite a different feel from other rods thatI've ownedand cast. This feel is difficult to describe except to say that myexperience with the rod sofar is that it does not like you to be sloppy. Timing has to be quite precisebut itis a precision that come from being compact and efficient. The rod wilthrow 70' ofline with ease if you let it. What I think is most impressive about thisparabolic, however, is that its power does not come at the expense of control as isso often thecase with modern graphite. To me it's the control that is mostimpressive. You can throw remarkable in air mends and curves with this rod. I think this isbecause the action is uniquely distributed. If you throw a mend in the cast by loweringand raising the rod to the left or right, the curve that falls on the water isamazing. A.J. has indicated that this taper works best in rods 8' and up. I canunderstandwhy. I would point out that this characteristic also means a rod with afair amountof wood in the tip. My current reel (5.4 oz.) is not heavy enough to balancethe rod.I'd think 7 - 8 oz. would do it, but this kind of weight obviously flies inthe face of market trends over the last decade. Many cane owners, myself included,fish bothgraphite and cane. The in-hand feel and balance of alittle 7' for #4 is notvery different from graphite. The para is definitely in another category. Youcan build some muscle casting these rods. richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 09:46:44 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules Tim, Several of the rod builders (makers) used pins to secure their ferrules tothe cane. Look the ferrules over very closely for a small ( approx. 0.025")indentation. It likley that it contains a pin. Using a very small punch,remove the pin. Save it cause its tough to get the same size again. Whenregluing, make sure that you have marked the pin location on the shaftpriorto installing the glued ferrule. Install the pin prior to the gule setting.Best of luck. Don Tim: To re-set your ferrules without removing them;Try heating the ferrules GENTLY and SLOWLY over an alcohol lamp or somesuchdevice. Be very careful, this is a "feels about right" type of operation.If you heat the ferrule to quikly, or to a high temp., you will get a hissingsound, glue bubbling out from under the ferrule, etc. Go slow, and whenyou think the heat has released the bond of the glue, push down gently on the ferrule with a gloved hand (or whatever feels comfortable) to re-seat itand hang on till'it cools. Be careful not to bend the cane as you push because youwill cause the rod to set crooked. If you try this method and it fails, then go removal and re-glueing of the ferrule. Remember, to much heat to fastwill not only ruin what glue is there, but you also stand the chance ofdelaminatingand/or scorching your cane (stay off the kitchen stove). This holds true forferrule removal as well. Careful and good luck...Bill from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 10:16:54 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules Don says:Several of the rod builders (makers) used pins to secure their ferrules tothe cane. Look the ferrules over very closely for a small ( approx. 0.025")indentation. It likley that it contains a pin. Using a very small punch,remove the pin. Save it cause its tough to get the same size again. Whenregluing, make sure that you have marked the pin location on the shaftpriorto installing the glued ferrule. Install the pin prior to the gule setting.Best of luck. What's the deal with pins, are they used anymore? Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 10:31:51 1996 Subject: Re: Maker or Builder ? I like your distinction and use of "maker" vs "builder". Since I have never "made" a fly rod of either the "G" word or cane varietybut have assembled several, I always (when asked) tell people just *that*,that I "assembled" or "constructed " the finished rod from componentsthathad been "made" or "built" by others. Using your distinction I can move myself up to rod "builder" ! ;-) Russ LavigneAnachemrpo@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 12:29:59 1996 Subject: Re: Maker or Builder ? I like your distinction and use of "maker" vs "builder". I like it, too. So far I'm a builder, looking to graduate to maker.John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 13:11:51 1996 Subject: Back on the List Due to a move of my mail server I have been outof touch for two days. I had just posted the question of "Has anyonecasted a Paul Young Para - 15" when mymail went down. If you responded to that,please answer again. Thank you,Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 13:33:18 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? At 18:57 5/1/96 -0400, you wrote:Looking for comments. For years I have felt that a person whomanufactures the main component in a rod was a maker and that he maderods.On the other hand a person that bought the main component of a rodassembledor built rods. Perhaps Leonard started it by stamping his reel seats H. L.Leonard 'maker'. Wayne The definition of make is to build. The definition of build is to make. Ilooked it up. It seems to be a personal choice of grammar.A piece of bamboo is a stick. When it is carefully crafted into a rod it ishopefully transformed into a work of art.If my opinion counts for anything, (and it seldom does) a person who takesaraw material, (bamboo) splits it, planes it into shape, and assembles itinto a fishing rod would be a Rod Crafter.Careful craftsmanship and attention to detail are major components of theaesthetic appeal that so many people find desirable in split bamboo rods.Instead of maker, builder, or made by, built by, I would prefer the labelCrafted by. This would be a more accurate description.No matter what the craft, time is the tool used most by the craftsman.You asked for comments and these are mine.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 13:55:32 1996 Subject: Varnish Has anyone found a varnish brand that dries clear relative to other varnish brands. I've used a couple brands of spar varnish and they are quite yellow when they dry. I've also tried a product called Wood Tex waterbourne laquer and found that it dries very clear but doesn't have enough flexibility for a fishing rod. After casting, hairline cracks appeared where the finish met with the bamboo. They're barely visible and do not appear to have cracked all the way to the surface, but it seems like a disaster anyway. I have some rods I'm ready to dip and I'm looking to try a different finish that dries relatively clearer. Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mac from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 14:43:00 1996 Subject: Re: Varnish CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: Has anyone found a varnish brand that dries clear relative to othervarnishbrands. In an earlier post I mention Daly's Profin. It dries clear. Daly's is based in Seattle. I don't have the number but you can get it from information. Daly's can ship to you or steer you to a local retailer.zig from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 14:56:01 1996 hexagon@odyssee.net (ACKLAND TERENCE))Subject: Re: bamboo flyrods Dr spolek,have you ever taken the time to evaluate Garrisons method offlyrod design? I personally do not believe that flyrods made using hisformulas produce a particularly good rod. many senior flyfishermenagree on this yet so many contemporary rodsmakers seem to be lockedinto his tapers.Please take a look at my modest one pinky production.http://www.odyssee.net/~hexagon/ I have jsut returned from an extended overseas trip, so can only respond quickly to let you know that I actually do read my e-mail. I have not specifically looked at the Garrison rods. My testing has been all experimental and I have not had one to test. I am aware of their methods, though. While their calulation procedures appear impressive, they do not apply at all to flyrods, because they used beam equations which assume small defelctions (eg, the tip deflection is much less than 10% of the length) which simply do not apply for rods. I hope that this helps. Graig Spolek______________________________________________________________________Graig SpolekMechanical Engineering DepartmentPortland State Universitygraig@eas.pdx.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 15:31:47 1996 Subject: Re: bamboo flyrods From: "Graig Spolek" Organization: Portland State University Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:37:33 PSTSubject: Re: bamboo flyrods Priority: normal Dr spolek,have you ever taken the time to evaluate Garrisons method offlyrod design? I personally do not believe that flyrods made using hisformulas produce a particularly good rod. many senior flyfishermenagree on this yet so many contemporary rodsmakers seem to be lockedinto his tapers.Please take a look at my modest one pinky production.http://www.odyssee.net/~hexagon/ I have jsut returned from an extended overseas trip, so can only respond quickly to let you know that I actually do read my e-mail. I have not specifically looked at the Garrison rods. My testing has been all experimental and I have not had one to test. I am aware of their methods, though. While their calulation procedures appear impressive, they do not apply at all to flyrods, because they used beam equations which assume small defelctions (eg, the tip deflection is much less than 10% of the length) which simply do not apply for rods. I hope that this helps. Graig Spolek______________________________________________________________________Graig SpolekMechanical Engineering DepartmentPortland State Universitygraig@eas.pdx.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 15:47:20 1996 Subject: Re: para rods In a message dated 96-05-02 03:02:52 EDT, you write: I have had the advantage of building and designing these rods. Not on thecomputer but in cane where it counts. Some of the rods are so severe inaction that they are offered only to my old customers who have a trackrecord of knowing how to use them. Rods that flex to the reelseatwithout aslow actioned bone in their body. Man I love parabolics, versatile,powerfuland exotic. Hello AJ: It is my understanding that you plan to attend the TBBBQ next month. Iwouldreally appreciate it if you would bring one of your para's, and the moresevere so the better. To me, exploring such is the essence of my affection have cast is a PHY Perfectionist. Again, it would be greatly appreciatedforthe opportunity. Thanks and Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 17:24:35 1996 Subject: Re: Apology (was Para-15) In a message dated 96-05-01 20:50:45 EDT, you write: Which brings me to a question that relates to actions, marketing, andcane for the Graphite Generation -- what about five-strip designs? EScarefully damns them with faint praise while acknowledging theworkmanshipofCrompton, Uslan, and Wire. If/when I try to build a rod, I am tempted totrya pent. Any experience out there?--Roger Hello Rodger: I bought a set of pent planing forms from Frank Armbruster, ColoradoBootstrap, 8599 E. Louisiana Ave., Aurora, CO 80017 (303) 745-1353. Sofar,I have built 3 rods and it all works out ok. Requires a two-form set, duetothe strips have an apex angle of 72d with corners of 54d. I became enamoured with the pent idea as a way to have a bamboo in thelonger, higher line sizes with less weight as a way to have pity on a nottoostrong right arm. My idea was that the pent was a cross section ofsuperiorstrength along the line of reasoning of the I-beam in steel ormanufacturedwooden I-beam trusses. Everything I had read about Pents seemed to saythatthe pent was, indeed more powerful. A pent 7-0 #5 that I cast was quitestrong and fast, as was a pent casting rod of a friend. However, in AJMcClane's book, The Practical Fly Fisherman, a Cambridge Universitymathmatical explination shows only a slight improvement in rigidity ofthe 5over the 6 for equal cross section which is described as insignificant. Sobe it. A Mr. Len Histand has a computer program out to compare 6 sided to5and 4. In it he shows a 'd' (planing form setting depth) comparison forequal cross section and equal stiffness. For the pent, after progressing upthe tip awhile, one notices that the d for equal cross section becomesgreater than d for equal stiffness. I used his program to convert a taperofa 7-9 # 5 from hex to pent, and used the =stiffness numbers. The owner ofthe taper finished the rod out and reported the pent copy was slightlystiffer in the tip (18-24 inches) and the butt slightly slower than the hexparent. He thought the stiffer tip might have been the cause of the slowerbutt, reporting that the differenceses were subtle. Because the Histandresults shows the same 'd' for the first few 5" increments, it fit like aglove - if one is to assume all the above valid. With the inumeral subtledifferences in cane, treatment, humidity, etc., I really doubt validity toany great degree. I think any cross sectional shape is much like any other in that it can, asMcClane says, be fashioned into any strength one wants based on thederivedtaper. Want a noodle? - can be had in quad, pent, hex, etc. Same with apowerhouse, any length, line size, etc. So where does that leave the pent. Probably with some structuralstrengthadvantage vis-a-vis weight/strength ratio. To a discernable degree? - Idon't know (but would like to). It may be the pent is simply a curiosity. Itis however, a bit quicker to get thru the planing stage due to 16+% fewerstrips do. That can be offset due to wrapping being a bit slower, and onehas to deal with the ferrule situation and the fact that 5-jaw chucks are amite hard to find - read nonexistant (had to fashion pent collets out ofwoodand they are slow to use). In casting, if done with my eyes closed Iwouldn't know the difference. Did I waste my time and money in all the above? No! Mine is a retirementshop, my second childhood playpen and I like to experiment. Now I alsohavea set of quad forms (2-form set too) and will one day soon tackle that. Willuse the same taper but it will probably not cut much ice as a comparisonbecause I have none of the original culm remaining. This may sound like somuch cane quackery to many, and if it walks like a duck....... I LOVEbamboo. The author assumes no responsibility for any comments made concerningtheabove :-[ but he solicits any and all types of comments. Especially fromthose with pent experience. Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 19:08:41 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules Don says:Several of the rod builders (makers) used pins to secure their ferrulestothe cane. Look the ferrules over very closely for a small ( approx.0.025")indentation. It likley that it contains a pin. Using a very small punch,remove the pin. Save it cause its tough to get the same size again. Whenregluing, make sure that you have marked the pin location on the shaftpriorto installing the glued ferrule. Install the pin prior to the gule setting.Best of luck. What's the deal with pins, are they used anymore? Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson Tom, Far as I know they don't anymore. Used to quite common. Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 19:34:41 1996 Subject: TTBBBQ II Questionaire To be as much help as possible for Deux I offer up the followingquestions. Does any one need directions to Grayling? Does anyone need input as far as hatches, rivers, accommodations (hotels,cabins, campgrounds)? Does anyone want to pick up bamboo, I have scrap pieces for practice, orwould there be interest in getting Harold Demarest to ship in a bundle ortwoto break into smaller lots? Is anyone interested in a friday night workshop or can I make plans forfishing? Anyother comments ar suggestions are welcome Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 20:35:01 1996 Subject: winrod - 96??? Bruce Back from Corbett Lake - I down loaded you rod.zip and got it to rununderwin-os2 after a few hic cups - nothing serious. looks good maybe evengreat. Here is my constructive comments: Why limit line weight to max of 7? ferrule range of 10 - 15 is limiting cast distance of max of 90' I have been playing around with some "monster" rod and tapers andthis limitsme to traditional rod dimensions - need more elbow room for bigger orsmallerrod designs. also misspelling of "lentgh" in error message if you don't enteractionlength. Keep up the good work Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 21:08:06 1996 Subject: Re: winrod - 96??? Bruce Back from Corbett Lake - I down loaded you rod.zip and got it torun underwin-os2 after a few hic cups - nothing serious. looks good maybe evengreat.Here is my constructive comments: Why limit line weight to max of 7? ferrule range of 10 - 15 is limiting cast distance of max of 90' I have been playing around with some "monster" rod and tapers andthis limitsme to traditional rod dimensions - need more elbow room for bigger orsmallerrod designs. also misspelling of "lentgh" in error message if you don't enteractionlength. Thanks for the comments, Chris. Line weight was limited to 7 for noparticular reason other than everyone on the list seemed to think thatbamboo was "best" at weights below 7. I can easily add 8, 9, 10 if youlike ( How big do you want it?) Do you have the actual weights for theselines handy? I didn't have any data handy for the ferrule weights above 15/64ths. Ifyou have weights for the larger and smaller ferrules (including truncated)please let me know what they are so I can add them. Casting distance of 90 feet was based on the standard 90 foot flyline. Formaking spey casting rods and such I *might* be able to add length to theline, but I cut a couple of corners and implementing this will take a bitmore effort. As far as the misspellings go, that's me! :') I'll go in and fix em assoon as I have a list of what they are. I have 2 so far. Nice to know it runs onder os2! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 22:22:31 1996 Subject: Re: Loose Ferrules In a message dated 96-05-01 19:13:23 EDT, you write: Simple questions: Can you please give me some CLUES to which GLUES you prefer for this process.I am also considering replacing the ferrules....so I might need a source for them (they have one step down). Any ideas?? I'm new to this and couldn't find how to use the archives.TIA Tim Hello Tim: I use Devcon 2-Ton epoxy for ferrules, as does several builders I havetalkedwith. Wayne Cattanach recommends it in his book. Ferrules are availableform Classic Sporting Enterprises, Roaring Brook Road, RD #3 - Box 3,Barton,VT 05822. Phone is (802) 525-3623/fax 3982. Owned and operated byBailyWood, a nice guy (at least to do business with - never met him). Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 22:22:43 1996 Subject: Re: TTBBBQ II Questionaire In a message dated 96-05-02 20:24:10 EDT, you write: Does anyone need input as far as hatches, rivers, ... Hello Wayne:Anything you want to post concerning the above would be helpful to me. Also,what would you consider to be a minimum fly list for 3-4 days fishing inthearea. Thought I might bring a # 14 adams and maybe a # 16, but don't wanttooverdo it. Thanks, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 22:40:06 1996 Subject: Re: winrod - 96??? In a message dated 96-05-02 22:01:33 EDT, you write: I didn't have any data handy for the ferrule weights above 15/64ths. Ifyou have weights for the larger and smaller ferrules (includingtruncated)please let me know what they are so I can add them. Hello Bruce: Here are some ferrule wts. that might help: Classic Ent Super Swiss# 8 Trun 0.085 oz# 9 Std 55.2 grain = 0.126 oz# 16 Trun 119.6 " = 0.273 oz# 17 Trun 126.5 " = 0 .2895 oz# 18 Trun 143.0 " = 0.327 oz Classic Ent Super Step Down# 11 Std 74.5 grain = 0.170 oz Very carefully measured with a reliable Ohause powder scale. Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 2 23:18:09 1996 Subject: para-15 A.J. - I'd like to second Richard Tyree. If you're coming to Grayling,please bring a para or three. I'd really like to see the difference GO MAIL from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 07:21:30 1996 Subject: Re: TTBBBQ II Questionaire Richard -The #14 adams is O.K. but the #16 might be excess and in violation oftheBum rules falling under sub section #76 which states 'no optical aidesmay beused between the hours of midnight and sunrise' - I think the concern isthattoo many shot glasses would be dropped into the river and the possibleenviromental damage caused. Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 07:32:24 1996 Subject: workshop Wayne, when is the workshop and is it being held again at the Fly Factory?What is the cost and where do I send the check?Clark I.DavisZion- Benton High School3901 W. 23 rd. StreetZion, IL. 60099847-746-1202 ext 270c-davis@zbths.k12.il.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 08:22:22 1996 Subject: No Subject Hello John Long: Thanks for the material you sent. Will be in touch soon. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 08:22:37 1996 Subject: Re: New member, need help, where do I start In a message dated 96-05-03 05:10:36 EDT, you write: I want to refinish my South Bend 9 foot, Is there a FAQ and is thereanyonethat I can correspond with during this project. Shawn RaymondChelsea, Michigan Hello Shawn: Probably a large number of us on the list would be happy to help. Suggestyou simply put your questions on the list for answers. Tho it may seem abitextravagant to you at this point, most of the books on rodbuilding/restoration would be of great help. Especially those published,starting with the Garrison book to present. Let me know if you needreferences for those books. Best Regards, Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 09:25:42 1996 Subject: Oven Help To all, I have just finished a hot air oven. Used a 6" triple wall insulated pipewith a three inch galvanized inside pipe. As yet I have not been able toget oven temps to even out. Tied extra insulation and the bottom of theoven still does not get above 250 degrees, while the top two thirds is at375 degrees or above. have run oven as long as 25 minutes and the bottomTemp still top temps as high as 400 degrees. The bottom temp stayedbelow250. I am using a Makita heat gun with full variable temp control, but Iam thinking it may not be putting out enough volume of hot air? Any ideasor help will be greatly appreciated as I have just finished rough planingmy 1st rod and I am very anxious to heat treat so I can get to the streamwith my own rod. Thanks again for the help. Jim Fillpot from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 18:20:13 1996 Subject: Weir Rods I have a 7' 2/2 4 wt Weir and Sons rod. I love it and I want to know a little more about it. I've read the info on Weir in Keane, Schweibert and Spurr. Dick Spurr's book helped me decipher part of the serial number code. The rod is an M700, that is medium action 7' with a downlcoking SB NS seat. The whole sn is M700-16-9. It is probably some combination of year and number made that year, but I can find no reference material. Any help is appreciated. Does anyone know what happened to the family and if they are still in business?thnxz from owner-rodmakers@wugate Fri May 3 23:08:55 1996 Subject: winrod-96 help - where can I find winrod - 96. I'm a new guy to computers and can'tfindthe file. thanks ... dennis from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 00:28:31 1996 Subject: Re: winrod-96 help - where can I find winrod - 96. I'm a new guy to computers and can'tfindthe file. thanks ... dennis ftp to sirronald.wustl.edu/pub/rm/rod.zip Enjoy! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 00:33:56 1996 Subject: Weir Flyrods Ihave a 7' 2/2 4wt Weir and Sons flyrod. Can anyone help me decipher the serial number (M700-16-9)? The M700 means medium action, 7'. The rest of the number most likely indicates when the rod was made. I've checked books by Keane, Schweibert and Spurr to no avail. I also have a company catalog, undated, which doesn't have this rod listed. Also what happened to the comapny and their rod making equipment? Dick Spurr's book indicates that they used a Powell type milling machine.thnxzig from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 13:33:44 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? Looking for comments. For years I have felt that a person whomanufactures the main component in a rod was a maker and that he maderods.On the other hand a person that bought the main component of a rodassembledor built rods. Perhaps Leonard started it by stamping his reel seats H. L.Leonard 'maker'. Wayne,I appreciate your dillema. IMHO, perhaps the best word you used was "manufacture", the "hand working". The use of maker, as you define it, in the case of Leonard would be incorrect. Leonard (also Thomas, E.W.Edwards, and others) eventually had a complete production-line; one man sawed the strips, one straightened and beveled, one glued, and finally someone straightened and scraped. None of these would probably ever make a rod, in the sense in which you mean it. Thus, Leonard was not a "maker" (after the production line started). Was Paul Young not a maker when he bought his sticks from SouthBend or Heddon, but a builder?What you're looking for is a "Built- From-Culm" designation. How about the term "Rod Manufacturer", this implies the hand construction, fora BFC type, and "Rod Builder" for the assembler?Of course, the above is not intended to imply a hierarchy. I am now a builder (as above) and restorer. But without people restoring (and collecting) old rods there would be scant historical input into modern cane rod manufacturing. And that would be a great loss. I've cast some superb rods made by modern BFC; but certain delightful early actions have never been explored by many of them. Best regards,Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 16:18:34 1996 Subject: Frazer book Ken Callahan's recent catalog has a copy of Frazer's Amateur Rodmaking, $20. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 17:32:05 1996 Subject: WinRod-96 (more) Bruce I have been fooling around with Rod Calculator and found some minorprobs: 1. stress values seem to be inverted. I expect max values at tip andminvalues at butt. I get lowest values at tip and max at but with program. 2. Printing of graphs - I get two small rectangular shaded boxes onthe leftside of the printout for both graphs in either portrait or landscape modes. Ihave HP660Cse printer. Print screen comes out just fine and in color. Couldyou add color to match the display? Suggestion - Add place for Name of rod and carry that info intographs aspart of title. Also add ferrule stations as part of graph info. I like the ease of entry and ability to save and recal rod values. Chris from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 19:16:14 1996 Subject: math question I have just been looking through a how to fly fish book and there weresomeinteresting how to cast photographs. This Particular teacher cast with his rod at 45deg yet from the photo theloop was vertical. What I would be interested know is, would casting at an angle alter themath? I have never got involved with any of the Garrison math because I built afew rods to his tapers and decided that they were not for me. I simplypresumed the math was wrong and developed my own tapers. Terry Ackland from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 19:40:04 1996 Subject: Re: WinRod-96 (more) Bruce I have been fooling around with Rod Calculator and found someminor probs:1. stress values seem to be inverted. I expect max values at tipand minvalues at butt. I get lowest values at tip and max at but with program. Hmm, that shouldn't be happening. Try making a "test" rod by putting in astriaght taper starting small at the tip and getting larger by the sameamount for each station. I was looking at some Paul Young tapers and theysort of fly around as far as the stresses go. 2. Printing of graphs - I get two small rectangular shaded boxeson the leftside of the printout for both graphs in either portrait or landscape modes. Ihave HP660Cse printer. Print screen comes out just fine and in color. Couldyou add color to match the display? Where exactly do the boxes show on the printout? Do they correspond toanything on the data input screen or the graph screen? Suggestion - Add place for Name of rod and carry that info intographs aspart of title. Also add ferrule stations as part of graph info. Adding the name shouldn't be too hard, but I can't add the ferrule stationsto the graph without really ripping apart a lot of things. It's the natureof the graph function itself. You can only have one value type per axis Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sat May 4 21:42:18 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? In a message dated 96-05-04 14:27:17 EDT, you write: What you're looking for is a "Built-From-Culm" designation. How about the term "Rod Manufacturer", this implies the hand construction, BFC type, and "Rod Builder" for the assembler? Hello Reed:How about "Bamboo Builder". It does convey the basic idea. Just a thought.Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 00:04:18 1996 Subject: Are we up an running? I posted a question Fri 5/3. It's didn't pop up. In fact I've had no rodmakers posts in three days. Just checking to see if it's still up.z from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 00:32:51 1996 Subject: WISE FISHERMANS ENCYCLOPEDIA I AM TRYING TO FIND A COPY OF "THE WISE FISHERMANS ENCYCLOPEDIA",DOES ANYONEHAVE AN IDEA WHERE I CAN GET ONE? I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO HEAR FROMANYONE WHO HASBUILT A BINDER DESCRIBED BY CHRIS LUCKER IN THE PLANING FORM. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 01:17:08 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? I've been going by Bamboo rod craftsman for lack of any better idea.A.J.Thramer from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 11:05:30 1996 Subject: Re: WISE FISHERMANS ENCYCLOPEDIA Try Ken Callahan at Callahan & Company Booksellers. (603)924-3726 He specializes in Hunting and Angling books. He usually has a copy or two, also very good prices. (This is not a paid commercial break) Reed P.S. - If you express interest in rodmaking, he has other titles. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 11:42:46 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? At 02:23 PM 5/4/96 -0400, Reed wrote:[snip]What you're looking for is a "Built-From-Culm" designation. How about the term "Rod Manufacturer", this implies the hand construction, BFC type, and "Rod Builder" for the assembler?Of course, the above is not intended to imply a hierarchy. I am now a builder (as above) and restorer. But without people restoring (and collecting) old rods there would be scant historical input into moderncane rod manufacturing. And that would be a great loss. I've cast some superb rods made by modern BFC; but certain delightful early actions have never been explored by many of them. Best regards,Reed Reed, The word "manufacturer" leaves me with a very cold feeling. I don'tbelievethat it relates very well to the craftsmanship and hand labor that goesintothe making of a cane rod. I think Webster's says it best: "Manufacture -the making of goods and articles by hand or, especially, by machinery,oftenon a large scale and with division of labor". I can see that descriptionbeing applied to graphite rods but not to cane rods. See Ya,--------------------John JohnsonAtlanta, GAjjohnson@netime.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 12:09:22 1996 Subject: 60 deg. point for dial gage? Does anyone know where I can find a 60 degree point for a dialgage/indicator? I know that Starett carries them, but I can'tfind their phone number. Thanks,Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 14:07:59 1996 Subject: For sale J.W. Young reel and Wulff 4/5 line Hello, in clearing out all the stuff I take fishing I have decided to part with a vintage(bought new in 64) J.W. Young Pridex reel with a newish Wulff #4/5 triangle taper floating line. Reel is about the size and character of a Hardy Featherweight and will hold 4WF or 3 DT and some backing. I had it back to the factory recently for new latch springs and a check over. Good mechanical condition, some wear on finish. 65.00 including postage. email or call John 2l7-344-8532 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 16:49:08 1996 Subject: Stress errors in Garrison's equation re: In order to quantify Dr. Spolek's comments about Garrison's calculationin a recent post: While their calculation procedures appearimpressive, they do not apply at all to flyrods, because they usedbeam equations which assume small deflections (e.g., the tip deflectionis much less than 10% of the length) which simply do not apply forrods. I have calculated the expected stresses in a rod when it is at its maximumbend point during the forward cast. This curvature was taken from astrobephoto that Dr. Spolek used in one of his many technical papers on thesubject, and showed the line pull angle relative to the butt was 45degreesat this maximum bend point. I tried to get some typical design tapers for a bamboo rod to do thiscomparison, but was unable to stimulate any in interest looking at thisproblem with a builder of bamboo rods. Thus this data is based on rodparameters supplied to me by Dr. Spolek some time ago for anunmentionablematerial. To be more specific this rod had a linear taper from tip to buttwith a nearly constant wall thickness. Its effective Young's modulus wasaround 12.5 Mpsi. The ratio of the butt diameter to the tip diameter wasaround 5:1. I was unable to find how Garrison defined his stress curve since his bookwas stolen from the local library some time ago. However, the generallyaccepted definition for the maximum fiber stress in a bent beam isdefinedas M*zsigma= ----I where: M is the bending momentz is the distance from the neutral axisI is the area moment of inertial for the beam cross section Using this definition and calculating the maximum fiber stress at theouterdiameter of the rod I found the following stress values for thestiff beam approximation (Garrison's equations) and the true flexible beamsolution. normalized stress stress relativedistance stiff flexible error from butt beam beam factor0 342.7 374 1.0910.05 361.9 458.5 1.2670.1 382.7 565.1 1.4770.15 405.4 700.4 1.7280.2 430.2 873.1 2.030.25 457.3 1095 2.3940.3 487 1381 2.8360.35 519.6 1753 3.3730.4 555.5 2237 4.0270.45 595 2872 4.8270.5 638.5 3707 5.8060.55 686.1 4809 7.0090.6 738 6266 8.490.65 793.7 8191 10.320.7 851.8 1.073e+04 12.60.75 909 1.405e+04 15.460.8 957.1 1.834e+04 19.160.85 977.9 2.364e+04 24.170.9 928.5 2.94e+04 31.660.95 701.3 3.154e+04 44.971 0 0 1.0 from this table you can see the stiff beam equation greatly under- estimatesthe true fiber stresses near the tip (normalized length=90-.95) by a factorof 30 to 45 times. As Dr. Spolek surmised the stiff beam equations to not apply to a fly rod.After all one of its chief attributes is that is designed to bend. Gordon Judd There are advantages to being self-taught;Fullerton, CA the quality of instruction is not one ofjudd@cosmoslink.net them. -Ted Leeson- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 17:57:24 1996 Subject: Castaways How many list-members who live in New England/New York would like toget together on a stream some Saturday in May to test cast cane rods? Isuggest a stream because in order to examine the properties of diffent tapers/actions, it is helpful to be in a real fishing environment. If collectors were to bring some vintage actions, and makers/builderswere to bring their creations, we could each experience differentinterpretations of the "perfect" cane rod. We could have some mikes handy for taking off vintage tapers. Any takers? Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 18:15:06 1996 Subject: Re: Castaways How many list-members who live in New England/New York would like togettogether on a stream some Saturday in May to test cast cane rods?Reed I'm interested depending on where and when. I have two Thramers and a Phillipson to contribute.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 21:02:45 1996 Subject: Fishing - 60 deg points - TTBBBQII cabins Having been kidnapped by trout bum terrorists (Sam - Toni - 'DunkinDanand 'The Redhead')- I just recently escaped after days of tortureousfishingpressure but alas I am finially safe at my keyboard again. 60 Degree Starret Points (part # 6632/6)As I have offered in the past - if anyone wants one - just e - mail anaddress and I will gladly send. If for some reason anyone that has askedforone and hasn't got one send address again. Occassionally it seems as ifAOLends up burning excess mail under a overpass in Chicago somewhere. Cabins for TTBBBQ IIThere are two locations of rentable cabins in the Grayrock area. Thecabins that JJ told some about are owned by Frank Love - they are locatedoverlooking the Manistee River just downstream of CR 612 bridge. Welooked atthem this weekend and they are livable and quite affordable($35.00/night)and according to Frank he has two available for the dates around thatweekend. Each cabin looks like it would accommadate 2.The other cabins are owned by Jim Penrod of Penrod's canoe livery -located 2 blocks (crawling) east of the fly factory. They are quite nice andwill house many.Somehow I left the phone numbers at the clubhouse (my hurried escape)-Grayrock Directory Assistance Fly InformationSteve Southard posted a minimum list of fly patterns earlier - justremember that some of us know a fly tier - perhaps it might be best topost aupdate as the date approaches - If forced I could do a weekly sampling offishing and post results. Available Rivers hours drive - the list reads like a who's who of trout streamsThe Ausable SystemThe mainstream 'The Holy Water' - Trout Unlimited was foundedhereThe South Branch - featured in 'The Rise in the Ring'The East Branch - Petite rod testing waterThe Manistee - 8 - 12 miles west it is bigger water but wadable andhasmany decent fishThe Boardman - 45 miles awayThe Jordan - 50 miles away - the river is 22 miles long and 11 miles isFed & State (public) owned - pristine in beauty - Just remember to takeyourfly rod off the roof of your truck before you take off.The Pigeon - 60+ miles - the only trout stream this side ofYellowstonewhere you can be fishing and see wild elk grazing.#@$% ^%$# Creek - petite - mean to almost impossible fishing - 18"brook trout - map is sealed inside of a Single Malt Scotch bottle andlockedin the clubhouse safe TTBBBQ future plansTTBBBQ is simply a social event that developed last year to toast offtheend of two gatherings - The Compuserve FF forum and The Rodmakers gettogether. The plan is that it will continue on into the future. As for therodmakers get togethers I have let Ron organize that through The PlaningFormand last year it was one of two events especially for the bamboo rodmakinginterest. If for some reason there is a change of venue on Rons part I'msurethat there will be something happening at the 'Shopp' of interest torodmakers for years to come. FYI - TTBBQ is sponsored by The Fly Factory (Steve Southard) & Spikes(Vic Edwards) - they have committed any profits to go directly to localstream improvements projects - The idea is to have an enjoyable timewithfellow fly fishers Wayne from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 21:24:19 1996 Subject: Re: Weir Rods I recently wrote asking if anyone could decipher the serial number on my Weir and Sons Rod. It's a 7' 2/2 for a 4wt. Tthe number is M700-16-9. The M700 stands for medium weight action 7'. I'd like to when it was built and what happened to the company. I've checked the books by Schweibert, Keane and Spurr but did not find what I was looking for. Sorry for repeating myself, but I had somehow become unsubscribed.thanksz from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 21:40:53 1996 Subject: Re: Marker or Builder ? I've been going by Bamboo rod craftsman for lack of any better idea.A.J.Thramer I've noticed the fans of things bamboo call themselves Bambuseros. Well?Ok ok, it was *just* a thought.... Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 22:05:14 1996 Subject: Lines for Cane Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 14:26:44 -0700 From: Michael Leitheiser Subject: Lines for Cane Recently tried the SciAnglr XPS series. Seem to be smaller diameter forweight than Cortland or other SciAnglers lines. (haven't mic'd them yet)Worked well on my cane, better than 44SL though not as well as old Orvisintermediates. Anyone else tried them? Comments? Mike in PDX from owner-rodmakers@wugate Sun May 5 22:05:35 1996 Subject: Re: Castaways Reed, I'd love it, but my casting is so poorI'd probably be to embarrassed to do itin front of others, much less with someoneelse's good bamboo rods. Owen from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 05:06:41 1996 Subject: Re: Castaways Reed, I'd love it, but my casting is so poorI'd probably be to embarrassed to do itin front of others, much less with someoneelse's good bamboo rods. Owen Owen,I have a hard time adjusting to new and different rod actions, many people do. Come and try some, you might find the action that brings forth your best casting. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 10:06:57 1996 Subject: Re: Castaways Reed seez... How many list-members who live in New England/New York would like toget together on a stream some Saturday in May to test cast cane rods? Isuggest a stream because in order to examine the properties of diffent tapers/actions, it is helpful to be in a real fishing environment. If collectors were to bring some vintage actions, and makers/builderswere to bring their creations, we could each experience differentinterpretations of the "perfect" cane rod. We could have some mikes handy for taking off vintage tapers. Any takers? GREAT IDEA!!! I'd love to make it Reed, though I think the commute from St. Louis might be a bit extreme! :-) However, anyone in the vicinity of the country's navel (read: Missouri :-)who might be interested in a similar encounter, just let me know! As amatter of fact, just this past Friday, fellow listmember, Bill Lambersonand I met on one of the small Missouri streams for some trout fishing androdmaking talk. For show & tell, I brought along my freshly sanded,first rod attempt, and Bill brought along a prototype of a spline formerhe's been working on. It was a great day, and well worth repeating.So, any interested Navel-ites...let's plan an encounter!!! Also, I'm planning on driving up to Graylock next month for TBBBQII. enroute between STL and Graylock who would like to carpool, let meknow. Some company on the trip would be great... Mike - show & tell - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 16:22:17 1996 Subject: HELP HELP I need Black Snake Guieds, size 1/0, 1 and 2.PERFECTION prefferd. email ASAP thanksA.J. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 16:45:13 1996 Subject: Spline former (Was Re: Castaways) In an informative, enjoyable postingotherwise ruthlessly deleted, Mike Biondosaid: sanded, first rod attempt, and Bill broughtalong a prototype of a spline former he'sbeen working on. Gee, please tell us more about that spline former.How does it work? Is it anything like the millerthat the estimable Mr. Zimny brought to LivingstonManor last year? Details eagerly awaited. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 21:08:59 1996 Subject: Re: WISE FISHERMANS ENCYCLOPEDIA John Moldenhauer of Rising Trout Books in Elmra, ON Canada wouldprobablyhave one, I have one if you need something looked up. JB I AM TRYING TO FIND A COPY OF "THE WISE FISHERMANS ENCYCLOPEDIA",DOES ANYONEHAVE AN IDEA WHERE I CAN GET ONE? I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO HEAR FROMANYONEWHO HASBUILT A BINDER DESCRIBED BY CHRIS LUCKER IN THE PLANING FORM. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 21:17:27 1996 Subject: Re: 60 deg. point for dial gage? Find out who sells machinest tools in you area, these suppliers haveeverything (if you live in a densely populated area. I think Starret ins inMass. Try directory assistance. JB>Does anyone know where I can find a 60 degree point for a dialgage/indicator? I know that Starett carries them, but I can'tfind their phone number. Thanks,Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 21:54:15 1996 Subject: Re: 60 deg. point for dial gage? JB>Does anyone know where I can find a 60 degree point for a dialgage/indicator? I know that Starett carries them, but I can'tfind their phone number. Thanks,Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil Starrett is in Athol, Mass. Don't have the number anywhere around, sorry.But I *did* drive past the plant the other day! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from owner-rodmakers@wugate Mon May 6 23:36:56 1996 Subject: Re: 60 deg. point for dial gage? At 11:57 5/5/96 -0500, you wrote: Does anyone know where I can find a 60 degree point for a dialgage/indicator? I know that Starett carries them, but I can'tfind their phone number. Thanks,Jerryballard@zen.wes.army.mil Jerry,The phone number for L.S. Starrett Co. is (508) 249-3551 Fax (508) 249-8495The suggested retail price for part no. 6632/6 contact point is $3.05I hope this is helpful.Jim from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 05:52:15 1996 Subject: LOOSE FERRULES I noticed a question the other day concerning loose ferrules. While visitinga fellow rod builders shop a few months ago he showed me a " TEMPORARYFIX"that he uses. He had replaced the cutting blade in a very small tube cutterwith a roller. By slowly increasing the pressure as he rotated the cutteraround the ferrule he could tighten the ferrule up enough to make itserviceable. I have not tried this but it looks like it should work as a "TEMPORARY FIX " Anyone out there ever tried anything like this? Mark from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 07:04:36 1996 Subject: Re: Spline former The spline former is an idea developed from Bruce Conner's description of a method to build quadrate's without planing forms. It is also described in book's by Moss and mentioned in Schweibert's "Trout". The former is simply a strip of hard maple about 1" square, shaped on a jointer. It has angles of 60, 90, 120, and 90 degrees. The point of the 60 degree angle is planed off and replaced by cane. The former is designed to be run over a router with a pattern making bit so the excess cane is removed. My hope is to use the former for preliminary preparation of cane prior to final planing. I have tested the method only with a short strip of cane. It seemed to work OK. Are the there other out there making use of similar methods? Bill LambersonAssociate Professor of Animal SciencesUniversity of Missouri- ColumbiaColumbia, MO 65211 314 882-8234wlambers@mail.coin.missouri.edu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 07:44:12 1996 Subject: Re: LOOSE FERRULES Dear Mark, I think I invented the tubing cutter trick about 10 years ago. Ireplaced the cutting wheels with small bearing races. It does work, but isapowerful tool and you have to proceed with caution. It is very easy tosqueeze too hard and make the fit too tight. Start at the base of thefemaleferrule and work toward the tip in several increments, being very careful,and continually test fitting. Regards - Tom from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 08:12:30 1996 Subject: Re: Tempering cane - Why? In a message dated 96-05-03 02:53:26 EDT, you write: Have tried a number of experiments to determine the "best" way totempercane. Have used pipe ovens, direct flaming and convection/recirculationovens @ all kinds of temps/times. Spent a sack full of time and $'s andstill have no definitive answer. I, like a lot or all of us, believe thattempering somehow effects the stiffness of the cane. Unfortunaltey,severalof my experiments show that tempered cane is actually less stiff thanuntempered cane. The tests I used were: Hello Don: Much agreement on the prevailing wisdom concerning tempering; Isomehowalways feel that it just has to be tempered. Also much agreement thatsomereally serious testing should be done to determine just what effecttemperingactually has on cane. An early Planing Form edition published such a test,and it indicated tempering more severe than the Garrison time/tempformulasincreased stiffness greater than Garrison's formula. You did not mentionwhat the test specifics were, so I have the following questions. Thesequestions in no way implies that your results are in question. (1) Were the strips all of the same dimension? (had to ask)(2) Were they all from the same culm?(3) Were they from cane that had been thoroughly seasoned (dried) or stillrelatively green? This tempering thing may well be a myth. Want a noodle or a fast rod? Ithink either can be developed regardless of how the bamboo is treatedpriorplaning. The catch word here is developed. Or look at it another way. Lets say a certain t/t formula actuallyincreasedstiffness of the cane by 50%. Does it not hold that cane so treated can befashioned into most any action, noodle to very fast? Statistics of "one" are really suspect, but here is one example that mayshedsome muddle on the subject. A friend had a 6' #4 2-pc rod that is a nicelysmooth, soft to medium action - really a pleasure to cast. It was reportedto have been built from a prototype blank left over from the Leonard Co.andlooked as tho the cane had never seen the inside of an oven. This is areally sweet casting fly rod. He duplicated the rod using cane that wasrichly flamed and then heat-treated. I am not sure of the T/T's of thetreatment, but it was at least as much as the Garrison prescription. Hewasdisappointed in the results because the rod was really quite stiff bycomparison, a much faster rod. The original had quite a heavy varnish job,so am neither sure how much that affected it's action nor how much thecopymay have been oversized by assuming a thinner varnish than actuallyexists onthe original. However, the difference is really remarkable and the heattreatment cannot be arbitrarily ruled out as playing some part in theincreased stiffness. As mentioned, this is a statistic of one. Also, haveseen some blond rods that were real powerhouses. You also wrote:This was done for 5 splines which had beentempered by various methods. A 6th spline was left untempered as acontrol.The control spline did better than several of the others. Just a suggestion: should you do further tests, perhaps it would be a fairertest if the individual splines were tested against themselves rather thanothers. This may give truer results (tho not necessarily significantly so)given the variability of cane, even to the point of differences from striptostrip as one progresses around the culm. The suggestion is to test eachstrip before and after heat treatment. Just a thought. You also wrote:Have used pipe ovens, direct flaming and convection/recirculationovens @ all kinds of temps/times. My oven is made with a mica heat strip, and tend to concentrate the heatinthe center. Would really appreciate any info you could supply on how tomodify it to 'recirculating' status. Fans and sources, necessary baffles,etc. Guess my two cents worth is up. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 12:29:36 1996 Subject: Cane Tournament Casting Rods? Thanks everyone for your input on the Paul Young Para-15. It helpedme a lot to understand the stress graph I was looking at. Now, my next question....I have read references to tournament casting rods. I am assuming theseare for distance casting. Does anyone have a taper formula for such arod? I would like to see the stress graph generated and possibly figureout why such a taper can cast farther than ordinary rods.Thanks in advance. Darryl Hayashida from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 12:36:23 1996 Subject: "Bamboo's better then Graphite because....." Several people in this list have posted comments about graphite vs.bamboo and why a person would chose one over the other. One of the reasons was the "Quick loading" quality of most bamboo rods. At the time I commented that I'd have to go back to the casting pond to check this out. Well, this last weekend I got a chance to check it out. Here's my experience. My wife was attending an national nurses society meeting in Charlotte, NC and ask me to tag along. I just happened to take some fishing gear. Among the gear was two seven foot and an eight foot travel rods. On a whim I threw my little six foot bamboo rod in with the rest. On our arrival I made enquires as to the closes trout fishing. (Jesse Brown's 4732-2M Sharon Rd,Charlotte 704-523-9094 seems to know themost about flyfishing in that area.) They directed me to South Mountain State Park, about 65 miles north west of Charlotte.After I got to the park and before unlocking the trunk, I walked down tothe stream.It was a fast flowing, rock strewn, mountain stream. It was bouldered on both sides by overhanging trees and brush. I don't think it was over 40 ft. wide at it's widest point and 20 ft would be average. I went back to the car and pulled out the little 6ft. bamboo rod. Fishing that day required mostly roll casts and very short casts. Often I had to "shoot" line because I didn't have sufficient space behind me tomake a classic back cast. All of this I did fine with my bamboo rod. The ability to load the rod in confined areas was a real plus. I enjoyed fishing that stream and caught and released many trout. The next day I visited a small lake, in another state park, this time going after sunfish.I used one of the Graphite rods I'd brought and found that It wouldn't work at all in tight places. Each time I got in a confined space I found the rod wanting. I couldn't even get a decent roll cast out of it.... I'd say that one of the real selling points of Bamboo is this ability to fish in limited spaces. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 13:21:57 1996 Subject: Loose ferrules Mark,I have not tried this but a friend of mine who is making a lot of rods hasbuilt a jig very similar to the pipe clamping tool that is used inconjunctionwith the tubing cutter you ask about. He drilled a hole the od of theferrule,and than cut the piece of steel in two down the middle of the hole. Now thekerf of the saw blade has removed some of the diameter so when this isclampedaround the ferrule, it is tight. I think that he used screws to tighten thisbut I don't see why you couldn't just use a vice.As far as rolling the modified tubing cutter around the ferrule I supposethatif you were very carful not to tighten the screw down too much at onetime, itcould work but I would be very carfull here. Possibi~ly you could modifythestock tubing clamp?Good LuckMartin from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 14:05:34 1996 Subject: Re: "Bamboo's better then Graphite because....." On May 7, Fla. Terry wrote (edited): Several people in this list have posted comments about graphite vs.bamboo and why a person would chose one over the other. One of the reasons was the "Quick loading" quality of most bamboo rods. At the time I commented that I'd have to go back to the casting pond to check this out. Well, this last weekend I got a chance to check it out. Here's my experience.... Fishing that day required mostly roll casts and very short casts. Often I had to "shoot" line because I didn't have sufficient space behind me tomake a classic back cast. All of this I did fine with my bamboo rod. The ability to load the rod in confined areas was a real plus. I enjoyed fishing that stream and caught and released many trout. The next day I visited a small lake, in another state park, this time going after sunfish.I used one of the Graphite rods I'd brought and found that It wouldn't work at all in tight places. Each time I got in a confined space I found the rod wanting. I couldn't even get a decent roll cast out of it.... I'd say that one of the real selling points of Bamboo is this ability to fish in limited spaces. Fla. Terry Terry Kirkpatrick*** My reply: I agree wholeheartedly. This was also the point of my posting of a few weeks ago about using unfashionable 7 and 8 wt. cane rods to fish small streams for bass. With a good cane rod I can cast things like #2 streamers in relatively tight places with ease. I believe that the light weight of graphite is a meaningless obsession. I am only of average size and strength, but I have no trouble using a 4.5 to 5 ounce rod all day (yes, I enjoy smaller cane rods even more!). To me, the aggressive windshield-wipercasting action needed when you are trying to get graphite to bend with a short line is much more tiring than carrying around a few more ounces. And, if you do get tired, you can always take a break and admire the craftsmanship of your cane rod... Missouri Terry Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 14:17:15 1996 Subject: Line wt question My friends who found the Montague with the blue reel seat have now founda Heddon. It's marked Heddon Premium, 9 ft, 4 1/2 oz. Anyone have one like it or know anything about it? They wonder what line wt it requires.Thanks,John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 14:25:17 1996 Subject: Re: Line wt question try a five dt or 6wf from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 14:40:18 1996 Subject: overwrap & varnish thinning I have a couple of things I could use some advice on. #1 I'm restoring a tip section that has a parallel surface crack on one of the tapers about 10" from the tip. The crack appears more like a splinter abount 1/2" in length and not completely through the section. I want to do an overwrap so I can fish with it. Question: What color of nylon thread might best dissapear when I varnish it. I won't use color preserver of course. Any opinions would save me the time of testing. #2 I have usually used one coat of full strength spar varnish when dipping. Can I thin it with mineral spirits so that I can have a lighter coat of varnish. Does this work well? What would be a good startingpoint thinning it way down and dipping several coats? I went fishing Sunday on the middle fork of the Willamette River inOregon. My first day of fishing with bamboo. Didn't catch anything, but I sure enjoyed the casting. Thanks for any help you can provide. Mac from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 16:15:50 1996 Subject: Fwd: Re: LOOSE FERRULES ---------------------Forwarded message: Dear Mark, I think I invented the tubing cutter trick about 10 years ago. Ireplaced the cutting wheels with small bearing races. It does work, but isapowerful tool and you have to proceed with caution. It is very easy tosqueeze too hard and make the fit too tight. Start at the base of thefemaleferrule and work toward the tip in several increments, being very careful,and continually test fitting. Regards - Tom from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 16:20:30 1996 Subject: Re: overwrap & varnish thinning With Regard to repairing a splinter in a tip section, I would first glue thesplinter down with epoxy or titebond and bind the area with cotton bindingthread. When the glue dries, clean up the excess,wrap with white silk, andfinish with spar varnish. The silk and varnish seems to disappear betterthananything I know of. Make sure your hands do not leave any oil on the silk. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 16:46:55 1996 Subject: Re: overwrap & varnish thinning On Tue, 7 May 96 12:15:26 PDT, CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: I have a couple of things I could use some advice on. #1 I'm restoring a tip section that has a parallel surface crack on one of the tapers about 10" from the tip. The crack appears more like a splinter abount 1/2" in length and not completely through the section. I want todo an overwrap so I can fish with it. Question: What color of nylon thread might best dissapear when I varnish it. I won't use color preserver of course. Any opinions would save me the time of testing. A local expert told me to use really fine white silk. He showed me a wrap and it was invisible. John from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 19:10:18 1996 Subject: Re: "Bamboo's better then Graphite because....." At 01:24 PM 5/7/96 EDT, you wrote: Several people in this list have posted comments about graphite vs.bamboo and why a person would chose one over the other. One of the reasons was the "Quick loading" quality of most bamboo rods. At the time Icommented that I'd have to go back to the casting pond to check this out. Well, this last weekend I got a chance to check it out. Here's my experience. My wife was attending an national nurses society meeting in Charlotte,NC and ask me to tag along. I just happened to take some fishing gear. Among the gear was two seven foot and an eight foot travel rods. On a whim I threw my little six foot bamboo rod in with the rest. On our arrival I made enquires as to the closes trout fishing. (Jesse Brown's 4732-2M Sharon Rd,Charlotte 704-523-9094 seems to know themost about flyfishing in that area.) They directed me to South Mountain State Park, about 65 miles north west of Charlotte.After I got to the park and before unlocking the trunk, I walked down tothe stream.It was a fast flowing, rock strewn, mountain stream. It was bouldered on both sides by overhanging trees and brush. I don't think it was over 40 ft. wide at it's widest point and 20 ft would be average. I went back to the car and pulled out the little 6ft. bamboo rod. Fishing that day required mostly roll casts and very short casts. Often I had to "shoot" line because I didn't have sufficient space behind me tomake a classic back cast. All of this I did fine with my bamboo rod. The ability to load the rod in confined areas was a real plus. I enjoyed fishing that stream and caught and released many trout. The next day I visited a small lake, in another state park, this time going after sunfish.I used one of the Graphite rods I'd brought and found that It wouldn't work at all in tight places. Each time I got in a confined space I found the rod wanting. I couldn't even get a decent roll cast out of it.... I'd say that one of the real selling points of Bamboo is this ability to fish in limited spaces. Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu Terry: I'm interested in a bamboo rod for small streams. Yours seems to justright. Care to share the taper? Dennis from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 19:26:10 1996 Subject: Re: Cane Tournament Casting Rods? Does anyone have a taper formula for such arod? I would like to see the stress graph generated and possibly figureout why such a taper can cast farther than ordinary rods.Darryl,The early tournament rods were later adopted as dry fly rods (see St. John, et al); "with a heavy butt and light, flexible tip, this rod possesses both power and fine dry fly action." Kreider said this of a 9.5' 3pc Leobard Tournament rod. Do you have Kreider's book? If not, ChrisBogart made one of these for smallmouth bass fishing, he probably has a softcopyof the taper; saves typing it in again. Reed from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 20:20:39 1996 Subject: Re: LOOSE FERRULES I noticed a question the other day concerning loose ferrules. Whilevisitinga fellow rod builders shop a few months ago he showed me a " TEMPORARYFIX"that he uses. He had replaced the cutting blade in a very small tube cutterwith a roller. By slowly increasing the pressure as he rotated the cutteraround the ferrule he could tighten the ferrule up enough to make itserviceable. I have not tried this but it looks like it should work as a "TEMPORARY FIX " Anyone out there ever tried anything like this? Mark Have use the three jaw chuck on my lathe. Remove it from the lather andinstall in my shop vise. Tape offending female ferrule and tighten lathejaws in a number of locations. Works OK but this idea seems to make a lotofsense. Don from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 20:51:39 1996 Subject: Re: overwrap & varnish thinning I have a couple of things I could use some advice on. #1 I'm restoring a tip section that has a parallel surface crack on one of the tapers about 10" from the tip. The crack appears more like a splinter abount 1/2" in length and not completely through the section. I want todo an overwrap so I can fish with it. Question: What color of nylon thread might best dissapear when I varnish it. I won't use color preserver of course. Any opinions would save me the time of testing. Mac,I use white nylon - the smallest diameter you can get. Tried white silk andthe wraps are not nearly as clear as with nylon. Use a good grade of sparwarnish on the wraps. About 4>5 should do it. Don #2 I have usually used one coat of full strength spar varnish when dipping. Can I thin it with mineral spirits so that I can have a lighter coat of varnish. Does this work well? What would be a good startingpoint thinning it way down and dipping several coats? I went fishing Sunday on the middle fork of the Willamette River inOregon. My first day of fishing with bamboo. Didn't catch anything, but I sure enjoyed the casting. Thanks for any help you can provide. Mac from owner-rodmakers@wugate Tue May 7 21:08:21 1996 Subject: Re: overwrap & varnish thinning Date: Tue, 7 May 96 16:23:13 CST From: "John Carter" Subject: Re: overwrap & varnish thinning On Tue, 7 May 96 12:15:26 PDT, CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: I have a couple of things I could use some advice on. #1 I'm restoring a tip section that has a parallel surface crack on oneof the tapers about 10" from the tip. The crack appears more like asplinter abount 1/2" in length and not completely through the section. I want todo an overwrap so I can fish with it. Question: What color of nylon thread might best dissapear when I varnish it. I won't use color preserver of course. Any opinions would save me the time of testing. A local expert told me to use really fine white silk. He showed me awrap and it was invisible. John Fine White thread is the right answer!! Whatever you do, do not use any Nylon NCP thread. It will not be almost invisible at all! Ian ScottIan ScottWishbone Custom Rods wishbone@headwaters.comhttp://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone ********************************************************************************************* "The butterfly counts not months but moments,and has time enough." Rabindranath TagoreFireflies, 1928 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 11:32:27 1996 Subject: Re: "Bamboo's better then Graphite because....." =>Terry:==I'm interested in a bamboo rod for small streams. Yours seems to just=right. Care to share the taper?==Dennis I could give you the 'flat to flat' dimensions. I assembled the rod, I didn't build it fromscratch. I'd ordered a pre-owned bamboo rod from Centennial Sales (Classic Angler) and when I got it, the shipping carton looked like the letter "L." (Never order anything breakable during the Christmas rush.) I was upset and on a whim stopped in a Pawn Shop. He had a rod but he also mentioned that hehad some extra tips he'd sell me at $6.00 each. He had to bring them from home. When I picked them up, I found I had three tips and one mid-section, all from different rods. The tips were all from 9ft. rods, but the mid section appeared to be from an 8ft. rod. I corrected the length of the (now) butt section by adding copper tubingcut to length and filling it with a dowel. I glued and pinned them together, then the copper tubing was pinned and glued to the male ferrule on the new butt section. Two of the tips fit the new but section, so I selected the one that looked better to me. Cabela's supplied the real seat and handle and I salvaged the enough snake guides from the pieces that I didn't have to buy any. I can't remember where I got the stripper guide. After re-rapping the guides I wiped the rod with spar varnish and set it aside to dry. One interesting point. After fishing the rod, I decided to try the other tip. I took it just as it was, which means that at least one snake guide is missing. When I tried casting any length at all the whole rod vibrated so bad that I was afraid it would break in my hand. It actually moved my arm! I'm curious if it was the combination of tapers that caused the vibration orthe fact that the tip had guides missing and spaced at entirely different locations then the original tip? Fla. Terry Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flu from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 11:47:00 1996 Subject: glue and Tool Traditions I have been having trouble with glue failures in the spline joints of myfirst rod (nodeless). In my hands, URAC (mixed from powder) just does notmake a satisfactory joint. I follow the mixing directions, use the GF-10wetting solution, stir for several minutes, wait 5 minutes, stir again,clamp for 24 hours (at approximately 60 degrees), then remove the clampsand cure in a 90 degree cabinet for several days. The joints look good andflex reasonably. However, when flexures appropriate for the tip are a In contrast, all of my Titebond II spline joints (including the very firstone) were stronger than the bamboo surrounding them. However, I wasinitially discouraged from using Titebond II because of its 1) failurepotential at temperatures high enough to straighten epoxy-glued strips (ifI were to use epoxy to glue the six strips) and 2) short open time whichmight rush me as I bind and wet- straighten the strips (if I were to useTitebond II throughout). My URAC failures cause me to rethink using Titebond II for both spline andstrip joints, but I'd like to ask for advice before I reinvent the wheel. Isthere something other than the low starting temperature that I amoverlooking in my use of URAC? How much time do you think I really needto bind and straighten? Is any one out there using Titebond II for all theirbamboo joints? When the Titebond II is dry, can you heat-straighten itwithout glue failure? If binding time presents a problem, have you tr BTW, I had an order in with Tool Traditions for a Lie-Nielson scraper thatseemed to be taking a long time. When I called them, I learned that TT isno longer taking orders and that my refund check "is in the mail." Surelythe check will arrive today and I'll again be in the market for a scraper. Iam aware of Woodcraft, does anyone recommend a different mail source? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 12:14:09 1996 Subject: Re: Oven Help To all, I have just finished a hot air oven. Used a 6" triple wall insulated pipewith a three inch galvanized inside pipe. As yet I have not been able toget oven temps to even out. Tied extra insulation and the bottom of theoven still does not get above 250 degrees, while the top two thirds is at375 degrees or above. have run oven as long as 25 minutes and thebottomTemp still top temps as high as 400 degrees. The bottom temp stayedbelow250. I am using a Makita heat gun with full variable temp control, but Iam thinking it may not be putting out enough volume of hot air? Any or help will be greatly appreciated as I have just finished rough planingmy 1st rod and I am very anxious to heat treat so I can get to the streamwith my own rod. Thanks again for the help. Jim Fillpot ============================================================================ Jim.............. Did you ever get some input about your problem ?? I amabout ready to bring up my oven that is like yours and now I have newconcerns about getting the temperature distribution right. Karl HubeMarietta, Georgia from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 13:10:11 1996 Subject: Rod To whom it may concern, I am not a list member, and would appreciate any responses directly to myemail address (baxter@zoology.ubc.ca). I am looking into buying a used cane rod from a guy here in Vancouver, andwould like some info on what it is worth. It is a Hardy Palacona "The Kenya" 3 piece rod with a spare tip. I knowthatthe rod was built 1955ish from the number on the rod, and it is in allrightshape, with some bad wear on the cork handle. Thanks for any responses. James Baxter from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 13:10:30 1996 Subject: repost: glue and Tool Traditions I have been having trouble with glue failures in the spline joints of my first rod (nodeless). In my hands, URAC (mixed from powder) just does not make a satisfactory joint. I follow the mixing directions, use the GF-10 wetting solution, stir for several minutes, wait 5 minutes, stir again, clamp for 24 hours (at approximately 60 degrees), then remove the clamps and cure in a 90 degree cabinet for several days. The joints look good and flex reasonably. However, when flexures appropriate for the tip are applied to split, unplaned joints, the glue fails well before the bamboo breaks. Maybe my application temperature is too low, but I don't wish to heat the basement more or work in the summer exclusively. In contrast, all of my Titebond II spline joints (including the very first one) were stronger than the bamboo surrounding them. However, I was initially discouraged from using Titebond II because of its 1) failure potential at temperatures high enough to straighten epoxy-glued strips (if I were to use epoxy to glue the six strips) and 2) short open time which might rush me as I bind and wet- straighten the strips (if I were to use Titebond II throughout). My URAC failures cause me to rethink using Titebond II advice before I reinvent the wheel. Is there something other than the low starting temperature that I am overlooking in my use of URAC? How much time do you think I really need to bind and straighten? Is any one out there using Titebond II for all their bamboo joints? When the Titebond II is dry, can you heat-straighten it without glue failure? If binding time presents a problem, have you tried Titebond II Extend? BTW, I had an order in with Tool Traditions for a Lie-Nielson scraper that seemed to be taking a long time. When I called them, I learned that TT is no longer taking orders and that my refund check "is in the mail." Surely the check will arrive today and I'll again be in the market recommend a different mail source? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 13:20:21 1996 Subject: Scraper Source Call Tom directly 1 - 800 - 327 - 2520 or 1 - 207 - 273 - 2520 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 13:20:48 1996 Subject: Re: glue and Tool Traditions rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu's message of 08-May-96 11:36 boundary=Boundary-2112303-0-0 --Boundary-2112303-0-0 Use regular Titebond glue and spring clamps. I have built numerousnodeless rods this way and have never had a failure- Titebond takes heat well. Clamp together (with urac) after final planing each splice will be glued on twomore surfaces. I frequently use scrap pieces of bamboo and splice them for use under the grip and reel seat. The titebond survives heat treating at 375deg. Good luck. John Long Northville, Mich. --Boundary-2112303-0-0 Subject: glue and Tool Traditions CREN I have been having trouble with glue failures in the spline joints of myfirst rod(nodeless). In my hands, URAC (mixed from powder) just does not make asatisfactoryjoint. I follow the mixing directions, use the GF-10 wetting solution, stir minutes, wait 5 minutes, stir again, clamp for 24 hours (at approximately60 degrees),then remove the clamps and cure in a 90 degree cabinet for several days. The joints lookgood and flex reasonably. However, when flexures appropriate for the tipare a In contrast, all of my Titebond II spline joints (including the very firstone) werestronger than the bamboo surrounding them. However, I was initiallydiscouraged fromusing Titebond II because of its 1) failure potential at temperatures highenough tostraighten epoxy-glued strips (if I were to use epoxy to glue the sixstrips) and 2) shortopen time which might rush me as I bind and wet-straighten the strips (ifI were to useTitebond II throughout). My URAC failures cause me to rethink using Titebond II for both spline andstrip joints, butI'd like to ask for advice before I reinvent the wheel. Is there somethingother than thelow starting temperature that I am overlooking in my use of URAC? Howmuch time do you thinkI really need to bind and straighten? Is any one out there using Titebond II bamboo joints? When the Titebond II is dry, can you heat-straighten itwithout gluefailure? If binding time presents a problem, have you tr BTW, I had an order in with Tool Traditions for a Lie-Nielson scraper thatseemed to betaking a long time. When I called them, I learned that TT is no longertaking orders and thatmy refund check "is in the mail." Surely the check will arrive today andI'll again be in themarket for a scraper. I am aware of Woodcraft, does anyone recommend adifferent mailsource? --Boundary-2112303-0-0-- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 13:21:56 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Depends on the line weight and length. Hardy rods are not so easy to sell especially over 8 feet.I would think that for a mint longer one maybe 450.00 and for a mint 8 foot or under 5-600. I have a 2 piece Hardy 2 tip Faery 7 foot for #4 weight--the most desirable of these rods, and I would value it at 600.00 though I might not be able to get that for it. John Friedman from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 15:00:47 1996 Subject: Re: Lie-Nielsen (Was Re: glue and Tool Traditions) Why not just go directly to Lie-Nielsen.I don't think it will cost you any more, andanyone who makes tools that good deserves toget the whole profit. The address is: Lie-Nielsen Toolworks, Inc.P.O. Box 9Route 1Warren, Maine 04864 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 17:27:18 1996 Subject: Re: Rod To whom it may concern, I am not a list member, and would appreciate any responses directly tomyemail address (baxter@zoology.ubc.ca). I am looking into buying a used cane rod from a guy here in Vancouver, andwould like some info on what it is worth. It is a Hardy Palacona "The Kenya" 3 piece rod with a spare tip. I knowthatthe rod was built 1955ish from the number on the rod, and it is inallrightshape, with some bad wear on the cork handle. Thanks for any responses. James Baxter I'd bid $300. It is a rare rod so a good seller would use this fact toraise the price. I would not ever give $500 for it. Don't get bad concienceif your man only wants $250 for it. Hardy Bros wrote about the rod in 1955:"A light, yet powerful rod designed to handle fish up to 5 lbs and to meetthe special requirements of anglers in Kenya. The rod is short fortransport-and capable of tackling heavy strong fish, and to hold them outof snags." --Terje Tveras, Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 18:14:21 1996 Subject: Replys to my posting To whom it may concern, If you replied to my posting regarding the cane rod could you please replytomy email address so I can read what you have to say. Thanks James Baxterbaxter@zoology.ubc.ca from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 18:25:28 1996 Subject: Re: Rod i dont mean to butt in but is the fellow from norway talking about u.s.dollars or canadian. looks like orginal post is canadian. i was incanada a month ago the rate was pretty steep. i think it was 30% Thanks for reminding me ... I was thinking in US dollar! Sorry, Canadians. --Terje in Norway from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 19:01:30 1996 Subject: Re: Fishing - 60 deg points - TTBBBQII cabins At 09:51 PM 5/5/96 -0400, you wrote: 60 Degree Starret Points (part # 6632/6)As I have offered in the past - if anyone wants one - just e - mail anaddress and I will gladly send. If for some reason anyone that has askedforone and hasn't got one send address again. Occassionally it seems as ifAOLends up burning excess mail under a overpass in Chicago somewhere. I'm still interested if you have an extra one: Tom Noto, 4017 23rd StreetNorth, Arlington, VA 22207 from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 19:14:51 1996 Subject: Re: glue and Tool Traditions You can order direct from Lie-Nielson. JB> I have been having trouble with glue failures in the spline joints of myfirst rod (nodeless). In my hands, URAC (mixed from powder) just does notmake a satisfactory joint. I follow the mixing directions, use the GF-10wetting solution, stir for several minutes, wait 5 minutes, stir again,clamp for 24 hours (at approximately 60 degrees), then remove the clampsandcure in a 90 degree cabinet for several days. The joints look good and flexreasonably. However, when flexures appropriate for the tip are a In contrast, all of my Titebond II spline joints (including the very firstone) were stronger than the bamboo surrounding them. However, I wasinitially discouraged from using Titebond II because of its 1) failurepotential at temperatures high enough to straighten epoxy-glued strips (ifIwere to use epoxy to glue the six strips) and 2) short open time whichmightrush me as I bind and wet- straighten the strips (if I were to use TitebondII throughout). My URAC failures cause me to rethink using Titebond II for both splineandstrip joints, but I'd like to ask for advice before I reinvent the wheel.Is there something other than the low starting temperature that I amoverlooking in my use of URAC? How much time do you think I really needtobind and straighten? Is any one out there using Titebond II for all theirbamboo joints? When the Titebond II is dry, can you heat-straighten itwithout glue failure? If binding time presents a problem, have you tr BTW, I had an order in with Tool Traditions for a Lie-Nielson scraper thatseemed to be taking a long time. When I called them, I learned that TT isno longer taking orders and that my refund check "is in the mail." Surelythe check will arrive today and I'll again be in the market for a scraper.I am aware of Woodcraft, does anyone recommend a different mail source? from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 19:21:53 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Terje Tveras wrote: To whom it may concern, I am not a list member, and would appreciate any responses directly tomyemail address (baxter@zoology.ubc.ca). I am looking into buying a used cane rod from a guy here in Vancouver,andwould like some info on what it is worth. It is a Hardy Palacona "The Kenya" 3 piece rod with a spare tip. I knowthatthe rod was built 1955ish from the number on the rod, and it is inallrightshape, with some bad wear on the cork handle. Thanks for anyresponses. James Baxter I'd bid $300. It is a rare rod so a good seller would use this fact toraise the price. I would not ever give $500 for it. Don't get bad concienceif your man only wants $250 for it. Hardy Bros wrote about the rod in 1955:"A light, yet powerful rod designed to handle fish up to 5 lbs and to meetthe special requirements of anglers in Kenya. The rod is short fortransport-and capable of tackling heavy strong fish, and to hold them outof snags." --Terje Tveras, Bergen, Norwaytert@cc.uib.no i dont mean to butt in but is the fellow from norway talking about u.s. dollars or canadian. looks like orginal post is canadian. i was in canada a month ago the rate was pretty steep. i think it was 30% from owner-rodmakers@wugate Wed May 8 22:28:38 1996 Subject: Re: Oven Help Jim and Karl,When I first started this silly business I got a 5",1/4" wall, 5' longal. tube, placed a 300 watt bulb at the bottom,surrounded the tube withpinkpanther insulation and spent hours monitoring temps and swapping ends inthetube. I don't believe that there's any way to even out the temp in a verticaltube. I'm now using one of Wayne's ovens to good effect. If you want somemytemps times in the tube I'll be glad to e-mail 'em to you but not on thelist.Good luck,Hank Woolman. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 01:24:40 1996 Subject: Re: "Bamboo's better then Graphite because....." The tapers.A.J. from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 08:22:25 1996 Subject: Re: glue and Tool Traditions Thanks for the info.I too had many many problems with urac on splices. I suspect the problem was with the temperature of my basement (too cold ~55F). I did all my tip splices early in the winter (december), and they were just fine, but I did my butt splices in mid January and not one of them held together.I then used Titebond II on the splices, and excel on the strips. I hope what you're right about the temperature resistance, because I'm about to straighten my blank. I will in the future use only Excel for both. This is very good glue.Daryl was the one who suggested Excel, and I have been pleased. I don't recomend urac at all. Excel is a one part glue with a much faster drying time, and can be used at lower room temperatures, and is both heat and water resistant, and is not water based, (Titebone II is) so it wont add any water to your strips. It's good to know I'm not the only one with the urac problems.Mauro. On Wed, 8 May 1996 LONGJ@detroitedison.com wrote: --Boundary-2112303-0-0 Use regular Titebond glue and spring clamps. I have built numerousnodeless rods this way and have never had a failure- Titebond takes heat well. Clamp together (with urac) after final planing each splice will be glued on twomore surfaces. I frequently use scrap pieces of bamboo and splice them foruse under the grip and reel seat. The titebond survives heat treating at 375deg. Good luck. John Long Northville, Mich. --Boundary-2112303-0-0X-Orcl-Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: 08 May 1996 12:41:41 Sent: 08 May 1996 11:36:12From:"owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: glue and Tool Traditions X-Orcl-Application: Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduX-Orcl- Application: X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.1 -- ListProcessor byCREN I have been having trouble with glue failures in the spline joints of myfirst rod(nodeless). In my hands, URAC (mixed from powder) just does not make asatisfactoryjoint. I follow the mixing directions, use the GF-10 wetting solution,stir for severalminutes, wait 5 minutes, stir again, clamp for 24 hours (atapproximately 60 degrees),then remove the clamps and cure in a 90 degree cabinet for several days. The joints lookgood and flex reasonably. However, when flexures appropriate for the tipare a In contrast, all of my Titebond II spline joints (including the very firstone) werestronger than the bamboo surrounding them. However, I was initiallydiscouraged fromusing Titebond II because of its 1) failure potential at temperatures highenough tostraighten epoxy-glued strips (if I were to use epoxy to glue the sixstrips) and 2) shortopen time which might rush me as I bind and wet-straighten the strips(if I were to useTitebond II throughout). My URAC failures cause me to rethink using Titebond II for both splineand strip joints, butI'd like to ask for advice before I reinvent the wheel. Is there somethingother than thelow starting temperature that I am overlooking in my use of URAC? Howmuch time do you thinkI really need to bind and straighten? Is any one out there using TitebondII for all theirbamboo joints? When the Titebond II is dry, can you heat-straighten itwithout gluefailure? If binding time presents a problem, have you tr BTW, I had an order in with Tool Traditions for a Lie-Nielson scraperthat seemed to betaking a long time. When I called them, I learned that TT is no longertaking orders and thatmy refund check "is in the mail." Surely the check will arrive today andI'll again be in themarket for a scraper. I am aware of Woodcraft, does anyone recommenda different mailsource? --Boundary-2112303-0-0-- from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 10:24:00 1996 Subject: Defense of URAC It is really difficult to see URAC 185 get such a bad rap! It has a super track record over the years and if the instructions arefollowed I don't see how people can have such bad results. We don't knowhowsome of the other glues are going to hold up in say 10 years- or 20? URAC specs say use in temps of 70-125 deg. F (they mean it)URAC specs give shelf life....(it has one- it may look good to use but wehave all heard the horror stories). I have always used URAC and as yet had no problems. I recommend it as theonly glue to use on bamboo rods. . I don't think I am alone in this thinking. Jon Parker@aol.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 13:56:52 1996 Subject: Oven help Hi, I resubscribed to the list the other day, after my return from a vacation,so Idon't know Jim Fillpot's e-mail address and I didn't see the originalmessage.Thanks Don for letting me know about it. I published an article about my hot air oven in the Planing Form in 1993. Ialso uploaded an electronic version of it to the rodbuilders FTP server(AdobeAcrobat format) some time ago. I never experienced any trouble with myoven, somy oven is still the same as in the article. Very likely Jim's problems are caused by the hot air gun used incombinationwith the larger diameter outer pipe he used to build his oven. Perhaps hisovenis even taller than mine, but that shouldn' cause any problems. It is hard to find a solution to the problem without trying and testing thesettings of the hot air gun. According to the description of the problem Igot from Don Andersen think that the hot air gun does not produce enough airmovement to heat up the bottom of the oven. The high temperature at thetop ofthe inner pipe is caused by hot air that heats the inner pipe from theoutside.Try to borrow another different hot air gun of higher capacity and seewhatwill happen. Also try different temperature and fan settings. The highest settingdoesn'thave to be the most effective one. Good luck, Frank from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 17:43:47 1996 Subject: Re: glue and Tool Traditions I have read about your gluediscussion. I don=B4t recognize the glues you=B4re using. Here in Sweden I have used a PVAc-glue from Dana company and have never had a failure, even with nodeless, permanently spliced salmon-rods. I try not to heat - straighten rods to quickly after gluing. /Mikael(Have a look at my "how to - pages" for the beginner.http://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba- mma/flyfish.htm) from owner-rodmakers@wugate Thu May 9 19:43:49 1996 Subject: Re: Tempering cane - Why? Richard,I have summarized my comments within the body of the message.Don In a message dated 96-05-03 02:53:26 EDT, you write: Have tried a number of experiments to determine the "best" way totempercane. The tests I used were: Hello Don: Much agreement on the prevailing wisdom concerning tempering; Isomehowalways feel that it just has to be tempered. Also much agreement thatsomereally serious testing should be done to determine just what effecttemperingactually has on cane. An early Planing Form edition published such a test, I presented my test results @ the bamboo meeting in Merritt B.C. a numberofyears ago and they were published in the Planing Form. (1) Were the strips all of the same dimension? (had to ask) They were. The strips, if I recall correctly, were from the dimensions of aGarrison 212 from the center section of the rod ignoring the taper rise @the ferrule. (2) Were they all from the same culm? The strips were "soul mates". Split side by side. (3) Were they from cane that had been thoroughly seasoned (dried) orstillrelatively green? The cane, purchased in about 1978 and the tests run in about 1986, wasstored in my basement in Alberta. The relative humidity here is low in thesummer and very low in the winter. We keep the house @ 24% relativehumiditywhen very cold outside to keep the double pane windows from frostingover. This tempering thing may well be a myth. Want a noodle or a fast rod? Ithink either can be developed regardless of how the bamboo is treatedpriorplaning. The catch word here is developed. I agree 100%. They only question is how much cane to put in the finishedproduct. It strikes me that IF tempering does increase the stiffness of thecane, you should be able to make a slimmer rod in all dimemsions thatwouldcast like a rod that was untempered and planed in a larger dimension. Or look at it another way. Lets say a certain t/t formula actuallyincreasedstiffness of the cane by 50%. Does it not hold that cane so treated can befashioned into most any action, noodle to very fast? If tempering does increase the stiffness of cane, how will the stiffness/less stiffness be incorportated into the tapers. It seems like we allaccumulate tapers but not the tempering method that goes with them.Why, ifthe tempering means so much? Statistics of "one" are really suspect, but here is one example that mayshedsome muddle on the subject. A friend had a 6' #4 2-pc rod that is anicelysmooth, soft to medium action - really a pleasure to cast. It wasreportedto have been built from a prototype blank left over from the Leonard Co.andlooked as tho the cane had never seen the inside of an oven. This is areally sweet casting fly rod. He duplicated the rod using cane that wasrichly flamed and then heat-treated. I am not sure of the T/T's of thetreatment, but it was at least as much as the Garrison prescription. Hewasdisappointed in the results because the rod was really quite stiff bycomparison, a much faster rod. The original had quite a heavy varnishjob,so am neither sure how much that affected it's action nor how much thecopymay have been oversized by assuming a thinner varnish than actuallyexists onthe original. However, the difference is really remarkable and the heattreatment cannot be arbitrarily ruled out as playing some part in theincreased stiffness. As mentioned, this is a statistic of one. Also, haveseen some blond rods that were real powerhouses. Although heat treatment cannot be ruled out, there are many othervariablesthat could effect the finished product - glues, varnish, cane quality,temering prior or after final planing etc. etc. I am not sure how anycomparision can be run unless we replicate the orginal makers techniques,materials, tempering etc. You also wrote:This was done for 5 splines which had beentempered by various methods. A 6