from HADN@chevron.com Tue Jul 9 10:40:06 1996 SMTP id KAA19062 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 199610:40:05 -0500 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Tue, 9 Jul 1996 08:40:01 -0700 Tue, 9 Jul 1996 08:40:01 -0700 Subject: Setting Gauge - Was: Milward Binder 4.0.838.14Encoding: 15 TEXT If I zero my dial gauge on a flat surface and use it toset my planing form, the splines end up being about .005 too large. This is caused by having broke a little bit of the tip off - get a newtip orperhaps one of the setting gauges mentioned here earlier. I know thatafterseveral years of stubbornness I am make a setting gauge. Wayne I thought about that... The tip is sharp, and is at 60 degrees.How do you make a setting gauge? Darryl from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Jul 9 11:00:53 1996 with SMTP id LAA20574 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 11:00:52 -0500 RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:02:00 -0400 Subject: Taper # 3 Here is the 3d taperF E Thomas 7-6, 3-pc, 4-wt Station Tip # 1 Tip # 21-1/2 058-060-062 066-066-0676 073-071-073 077-078-07610 081-083-087 088-089-08815 106-108-108 107- 106-10620 122-122-124 120-120-12125-1/2 138- 134-135 138-137-138 28-1/2 136-137-138 139-140-140 Mid Butt32-1/2 154-153-150 62 209- 212-21135 159-157-157 65 222-222-22340 165-165-163 70 235-242-23844 174-176-173 75 260-253-25750 189-189-187 76 266-267- 26055 198-202-199 77 278-273-27857-1/2 203-202-206 78-1/4 305-301-30479-7/8 330-336-335 Guides: Tips 5-1/4; 11-1/8; 17-3/4; 24-7/8;Mid 31-1/4; 37-3/4; 44-5/8; 52-3/4Butt 63 NOTE: In the case of the three rod tapers sent, the guide spacing is given WITH THE ROD JOINED !! Varnish estimate: 002 to 004 per strip - 004 to 008 total acrossflats Again, thanks to Dennis for these tapers. Regards,RTyree from HADN@chevron.com Tue Jul 9 11:06:32 1996 SMTP id LAA21006 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 199611:06:30 -0500 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:06:27 -0700 Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:06:27 -0700 Subject: List Members currently making rods 4.0.838.14Encoding: 14 TEXT The posts for "What are you working on?" have dieddown, and the results are 5 people are currentlymaking new rods, and 1 person is doing a restoration. The professional rodmakers on the list are makingquite a few concurrently, one guy is making a matchedpair, and one guy is making 5 at once. I'm sure we have more than this, we just haven't heard from some of the lurkers out there. Come on! Time tounlurk! Let's here from you! Darryl Hayashida from maiello@yorku.ca Tue Jul 9 11:59:11 1996 with SMTP id LAA24245 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 11:59:09 -0500 (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA09876 for; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:59:08 - 0400 doing -bs Subject: Re: Milward Binder Hi there. I dont trust my micing on the strips, or the setting of my forms.It depends on how picky you want to be, but the best way to do themeasurement before gluing is to wrap up the rod without glue, and micacross the flats. If one spot is too big, but all three flats mic thesame, take off just a bit (like 0.0002") with a scraper. I did my firstrod this way, and got within 1 thou. on all the dimensions, and the acrossflats were also within 1 thou. It took me a LOOOONNNNNGGGG time, but Iwas very picky, and there is not even a hint of a glue line anywhere. Ifound that my dimensions were bigger when wraped than when I miced thestrips. Also, I flattened the enamel side before measuring. The curvewill change the across flats dimension (of course).I certainly wont be so picky on #2. Just my 0.02 Mauro On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Michael Biondo wrote: Jim seez... Just finished my first rod. Waynes 7' 4wt. I am very please andpleasantly surprised with the results. However somehow I seemed togainapproximately 5% thickness when I glued the strips. A local buildersaidhe suspect my miward design binder was not applying the thread withenoughpressure. Is this a possible source of the increase in deminsions? How are your glue lines Jim? I would guess that if the increase indimensions is indeed a product of not enough binder tension, you wouldsee some noticable glue lines. Another possiblity might be the measuring of the splines prior togluing. If excess pressure was exerted by the caliper when measuring,the apex of the triangle may have been slightly crushed, rendering ameasurement slighly less than actual. However when glued up, and measured across the flats, it true dimension would be revealed aslarger than expected. Mike - always slightly in excess - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 9 12:30:06 1996 with SMTP id MAA26228 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 12:30:05 -0500 dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA08351 for; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:30:02 -0700 Organization: Bohls Financial Services Subject: Re: List Members currently making rods Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn) wrote: The posts for "What are you working on?" have dieddown, and the results are 5 people are currentlymaking new rods, and 1 person is doing a restoration. The professional rodmakers on the list are makingquite a few concurrently, one guy is making a matchedpair, and one guy is making 5 at once. I'm sure we have more than this, we just haven't heard from some of the lurkers out there. Come on! Time tounlurk! Let's here from you! Darryl Hayashida I've been a bit intimidated by the discussions from the list members,being new to cane. I've been "building" glass and graphite - mostly spinning early on --fly now -- for ~45 years. Just for myself but a few fly rods for others. Iwas able to buy 2 of Alvin Groves' rods from his brother and that has wetted myappitite rebuilding. Actual restoration is not appropriate here. I also discoveredtwo old Herter's glass blanks that I built many years ago that I am redoing. One of the 'Grove' rods does need to be resored -- an Orvis kit rod with loosewraps, a loose ferrell and some other problems that need correcting. I'mattempting to bring that back to as original as I can. Finally, I have a Leonard blank to build. Hope at some time to actually build my own bamboo -- several of myfriends here in the Cumberland Valley have the same interest. The recent list ing of the equipment was of major interest but I just couldn' swing it at this time. Ihave talked to George Maurer on several occasions and, along with reading bothWayne's book, the Kirkfield book, Garrison, and others, and the talk on this list, I'm getting quite an education. Maybe at some point I'll even be able to make a contribution that makes sense. So, at this time I've got six rods in some sort of construction -- muchmore than I've ever had. Most I've built in any one year has been 9. At any rate -- thanks for the education !!! Fred Bohls from HADN@chevron.com Tue Jul 9 13:03:33 1996 SMTP id NAA29337 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 199613:03:31 -0500 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:03:28 -0700 Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:03:28 -0700 Subject: RE: List Members currently making rods 4.0.838.14Encoding: 36 TEXT Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn) wrote:I'm sure we have more than this, we just haven't heard from some of the lurkers out there. Come on! Time tounlurk! Let's here from you!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sorry about the spelling error..... I've been a bit intimidated by the discussions from the list members,being new to cane. No need to feel intimidated. I have yet to see a flame on this list, andI never would have gotten started if it wasn't for the answers I got from the experienced members of this list. from what I've seeneveryone is happy to help out a beginner. Hope at some time to actually build my own bamboo -- several of myfriends here in the Cumberland Valley have the same interest. The recent list ing ofthe equipment was of major interest but I just couldn' swing it at thistime. It doesn't have to be that expensive. My total cost for tools andeverythingelse to get started was $700, but I bought the steel planing form, an electronic heat gun, and a Lie Neilson scraper. If you make your ownplaning form out of wood I think you could get started for less than$400 Darryl Hayashida from crocm@netaxis.com Tue Jul 9 13:14:26 1996 with ESMTP id NAA00332 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 13:14:24 -0500 OAA00761 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:16:31 - Subject: Re: List Members currently making rods At 09:06 AM 7/9/96 -0700, you wrote: The posts for "What are you working on?" have dieddown, ....Snip....Come on! Time to unlurk! Let's here from you! Darryl Hayashida Sorry for the delayed response, I have been busy both making and fishing afew rods. Just completed a pair of 6' #3's to Wayne's tapers one two piece, the otherthree piece. The blank for a 7'6" #5 is finished, waiting for the ferrule and hardware. of 0.003/in, I had a piece of cane I didn't know what do with. I will start splitting a 9'6" #8 three piece in the morning for Salmon andlight salt water. Going to use Chris Bogart's Big Dog Rod Taper slightlymodified. Then I want to build a boat rod, for albacore, shark, big blue's andstrippers, looking to use double-build construction. I have only found onetaper for a rod made by South Bend Company. I could use some help andadvice. Ed Muraskihttp://www.netaxis.com/~crocm from TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org Tue Jul 9 13:22:37 1996 with SMTP id NAA00630 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 13:22:34 -0500 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA16343 for; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:22:32 -0400 Tue, 9 Jul 96 13:59:03 EST5EDT EST5EDT Tue, 9 Jul 96 13:58:50 EST5EDT Subject: Re: List Members currently making rodsPriority: normal Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn) wrote:I'm sure we have more than this, we just haven't heard from some of the lurkers out there. Come on! Time tounlurk! Let's here from you! OK, OK, OK .... In between trying to fill up my kegs with homebrew, emptying my kegs of homebrew, fishing, filling up my flyboxes,and being an active member of my family, I'm currently re-doing a Heddon rod that I recently bought and subsequently broke. Two tips from Dick Spurr should arrive shortly. On the bamboo front, its been slow going. The forms, ala Bruce Connor are complete, binder - check, rough forms - check, plane -check, measuring devices - check, time - uh ... ummm.....well almost all set. Did perform some splitting tho, big thanks to RTyree, your advice worked great. A big thanks to all, this is the most informative and friendly list going. I promise in the future to be more vocal, er, uh well you know what I mean. laterTom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from patrick@cyberport.com Tue Jul 9 13:57:20 1996 ESMTP id NAA02665 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 199613:57:18 -0500 cyberport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA24043 for Organization: Bears Choice Honey Subject: Bamboo ...Unlurk...Delurk...Lurk off...whatever...OK you guys have done it, I think I'm finally ready to build bamboo. I got rodbuilding books years ago, thought about it, put it aside,...thought some more, got some tools, put it aside, thought about it some more and...now I am ready to get started (well, in three weeks after I get back from vacation, and after I do another batch of homebrew, and after I harvest the late summer honey crop...then I will be ready to get started.) But, I need one important item, Bamboo. I live in Northwest New Mexico but could drive to Albuquerque, Denver, or Salt Lake to pick up a shipment so, does anyone out there have a recommendation about a good supplier of culms, preferably in the Rockies, or western US (to keep postage down).Rather than clutter up the list with what is probably old news to most of you, private email responses are welcome. thanks to the collective wisdom, Patrick M. O'HearnBears Choice HoneyAztec, New Mexicoemail patrick@cyberport.com "Sharp ears are tuned in to the drones and chanters warming.Mist blowing round some headland, somewhere in your memory.Everyone is from somewhere ---even if you've never been there.".....Ian Anderson from rmoon@dns.ida.net Tue Jul 9 14:27:25 1996 OAA04813 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:27:20 -0500 Subject: Re: List Members currently making rods Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn) wrote: The posts for "What are you working on?" have dieddown, and the results are 5 people are currentlymaking new rods, and 1 person is doing a restoration. The professional rodmakers on the list are makingquite a few concurrently, one guy is making a matchedpair, and one guy is making 5 at once. I'm sure we have more than this, we just haven't heard from some of the lurkers out there. Come on! Time tounlurk! Let's here from you! Darryl Hayashida Darryl et al: I lost my server about a month ago and have just as of today gotten back here. My apologies to those of you who may have been waiting for casting rod tapers. I promise I'll get some together soon.Since I do not have your original message, I can only guess at what you wanted. Anyway currently I have under way3 Horrocks and Ibbotson and 1 South Bend to renovate. all sound rods except for ferrule use and varnish and wraps.1 butt section for one of Wayne's 7' 2 piece tapers that one of my students destroyed while turning the handle. (He can't get back here to do it himself, although he is capable,)Teaching 1 16 year old grandson to build the same Catannach 7'He has finished planing his tip now working on the butt sectionTeaching 1 11 year old grandaughter to do the same.She is just beginning..Just finished a replacement tip to one of my 7'6" rods I sold a couple of years ago. Still waiting for a ferrule.Building a replacement tip for my own 6' 4wt taper. I found that the rod did not have enough rigidity to stop my 200+ lbs when I fell backward off our four foot deck and broke 5 ribs.I am doing some planning on some greenheart rods. I was fortunate enough to get some good greenheart some time ago and I have a few old greenhearts that need replacment of sections, then I hope to be able to build one somewhere in the 12-15' range for myself. The trouble is, I still get a sick feeling when I think of cutting that beautiful wood. I just finished last fall a 7' one piece, spiral rod. I truly think that it is the most difficult rod I have ever built. As you may be aware, post glue straightening is virtually impossible if the spiral is to remain true. That means gluing up about 8' of willowy whisps absolutely straight before the glue tacks up. Try it! Maybe I'll just sit back this summer and build me a couple of rods. It's good to be back. I have missed all the chatter and all of the good Ralph W. Moon from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Jul 9 14:43:34 1996 with ESMTP id OAA06248 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 14:43:31 -0500 OAA02303 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:43:30 - Subject: RE: List Members Currently Making Rods My name is Frank and I'm a rodbuilder... Well, I'm trying anyway. I'm working on my second cane rod(my first is locked in the attic with other grotesque familysecrets). I'm aiming at Wayne's 7'0" 4wt taper since it came highly recommended on this group. The final planing on the butt section was almost done when I decided to see how far a strip would bend without breaking and found it was just a little less than I thought. My goal is to have it done beforethe end of our trout season (Sept 30). Currently work is stalled as I promised my wife a cherry writing desk for ouranniversary. To Patrick O'Hearn: My mother's maiden name is O'Hearn; maybeyour some distant cousin or something. Any relatives in westernWisconsin? I have a distant relation on my father's side whois/was a guide for Kaufmann's (Randall Stetzer). So far, he hasn't invited my out to go fishing.........................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from jonrc@atlantic.net Tue Jul 9 15:23:35 1996 ESMTP id PAA09569 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 199615:23:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Setting Gauge - Was: Milward Binder I should get a stander to set my forms with. But when I set the forms I don't rely on the gauge I use except to do the first setting. I then plane one of the splines close to the form and rest it using the first spline as a gauge. I adjust until it's just right and check each spline every few inches as a get to the final taper. I also use a Milward binder design and like it because it doesn't tent to twist the blank as it is glued. The tension can be increased to a fairly hi level if needed, remembering that there are 4 threads under tension as the blank goes through. -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and time again. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running the length of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mystery below the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from jonrc@atlantic.net Tue Jul 9 15:25:19 1996 ESMTP id PAA09688 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 199615:25:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Grayling Gathering '97 I've been watching the thread on this topic with interest, and have not posted, partly because I have not been to the Grayling Gathering. I've been there is spirit and hope to make it next year. I did make the Roscoe Gathering last September, despite my daughter wedding an the same weekend. Though it is not as catchy and clever as the previous posts I like the "The Bamboo Rodmakers Gathering at Grayling". The term "Gathering"seems to be well suited to this kind of event and suggests to me people coming together for a common interest. It also suggests something that is not to structured, as it seem these events have a life of their own. To further my cause, I will quote from the "New Merriam-Webster Packet Dictionary" "Gathering: to bring together, pick harvest, to pick up little by little, to gain or win by gradual increase, to summon up, guess, deduce, infer, to swell out and fill with pus." This seems to describe these rodmaker events and bamboo rod making in general The quote, though a real quote, is meant to be humorous, but my suggestion stands at "The Bamboo Rodmakers Gathering at Grayling" -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and time again. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running the length of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mystery below the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from KilchsGray@aol.com Tue Jul 9 15:52:20 1996 with SMTP id PAA11744 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 15:52:17 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:53:22 -0400 Subject: Timber rods (was Listmem...) In a message dated 96-07-09 15:33:27 EDT, you write: I am doing some planning on some greenheart rods. I was fortunate enough to get some good greenheart some time ago and I have a few old greenhearts that need replacment of sections, then I hope to be able to build one somewhere in the 12-15' range for myself. The trouble is, I still get a sick feeling when I think of cutting that beautiful wood. Dear Mr. Moon, et al, My "rodbuilding" so far is limited to wrapping one cane rod on aPartridge blank, but I am deeply interested in two-handers and solid woodrods. Any inf re: finding greenheart, washaba, dagama, lancewood, or otherrodbuilding woods would be very much appreciated. If this is too far offtopic for the List, please email.More to the topic: has anyone tried to do a cane rod with spliced joints? --Roger Wiggin from KilchsGray@aol.com Tue Jul 9 15:52:25 1996 with SMTP id PAA11754 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 15:52:22 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:53:20 -0400 Subject: Re: List Members Currently Making Rods In a message dated 96-07-09 15:49:16 EDT, you write: I have a distant relation on my father's side whois/was a guide for Kaufmann's (Randall Stetzer). So far, he hasn't invited my out to go fishing... Dear Frank, Several years ago, Randy Stetzer was my instructor in a speycastingclass at Kaufmann's. He impressed me as a fine teacher and a nice guy.Maybe you should contact him. --Roger Wiggin from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Jul 9 16:14:25 1996 -0500 (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA270706863; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:14:23 -0700 Subject: re: List Members currently making rods I'm currently working on convincing my spouse that I need to purchase rodmaking equipment so I can give it a try. I would appreciate any tips on "spouse convincing" that some of you pro's out there on the list could provide. Thanks in advance for your assistance. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from LANE@dsa.unt.edu Tue Jul 9 16:44:29 1996 with ESMTP id QAA17425 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 16:44:25 -0500 mercury.acs.unt.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA16034 for Tue, 9 Jul 96 16:44:22 -600 600 Subject: Re: Name, Grayling Gathering '97Priority: normal I hate to do this again, but I can't help it. My Throazine has worn off... and I need a vacation!:-) We can call it the B.G.'s (aka BeeGees).....stands for BamBoo Grayling Gathering (BB-GG's)Tim, feather for brains, Lane--------------------------------- ------------------------------------ I've been watching the thread on this topic with interest, and have not posted, partly because I have not been to the Grayling Gathering. I've been there is spirit and hope to make it next year. I did make the Roscoe Gathering last September, despite my daughter wedding an the same weekend. Though it is not as catchy and clever as the previous posts I like the "The Bamboo Rodmakers Gathering at Grayling". The term "Gathering" seems to be well suited to this kind of event and suggests to me people coming together for a common interest. Good Idea: The quote, though a real quote, is meant to be humorous, but my suggestion stands at "The Bamboo Rodmakers Gathering at Grayling"Says Johnathan..... from HADN@chevron.com Tue Jul 9 18:16:15 1996 SMTP id SAA00453 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 199618:16:14 -0500 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:16:13 -0700 Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:16:13 -0700 Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:16:13 -0700 Subject: RE: List Members currently making rods 4.0.838.14Encoding: 23 TEXT I'm currently working on convincing my spouse that I need to purchase rodmaking equipment so I can give it a try. I would appreciate anytips on "spouse convincing" that some of you pro's out there on the list could provide. Thanks in advance for your assistance. My spouse just chalked it up to me having my mid-lifecrisis, and said it was better than me having anaffair with a younger woman, or buying a littlered sports car. It also keeps me home in theevening and on weekends. Rod making tools can be cheaper than buying onecane rod, and if you continue and make yourselftwo or three, you have saved a lot of money overbuying two or three new cane rods. If you get goodat it you can sell cane rods to friends and make allthe money you spent on tools back again plus more.But, I wouldn't count on that happening for at leasta year. Darryl Hayashida from wishbone@headwaters.com Tue Jul 9 18:16:37 1996 SMTP id SAA00458 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 199618:16:31 -0500 ns1.bellglobal.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA21946 for; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:05:56 -0400 (5.65/1.1.8.2/12Aug95-0226PM) Comments: Authenticated sender is Subject: Spouse Convincing (Was re list members currently...) Priority: normal Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 14:10:07 PDT From: "CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL" Subject: re: List Members currently making rods I'm currently working on convincing my spouse that I need to purchase rodmaking equipment so I can give it a try. I would appreciate any tipson "spouse convincing" that some of you pro's out there on the list could provide. Thanks in advance for your assistance. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu 1. Tell her the rod is for her to use, and will be an extensive labour of love. 2. Buy her a new sewing machine and tell her you will need her help 3. The time and expense invested will pay off in "absence makes the heart grow fonder." 4. Promise her some additional income when your rods become famous. 5. Promise that you will give her much credit so that if your rods do become classics, she will have a place in history. 6. Lie to her about the cost. Good Luck, hahahahahaIan ScottWishbone Custom Rods wishbone@headwaters.comhttp://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone ********************************************************************************************* "The butterfly counts not months but moments,and has time enough." Rabindranath TagoreFireflies, 1928 from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Jul 9 18:17:33 1996 -0500 (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA004859654; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:00:54 -0700 Subject: re: Re: Ferrule glue If the ferr-l-tite referred to on the list is the hot melt stick, I use it to affix broadheads and field points to cedar arrows. I've also used it on ferrules, but have no idea how it works in the long run in comparison to other glues since my experience is limited. You have to heat it with atorch etc., dob some onto the area and affix the ferrule. One advantage, again if this is the same stuff I've used, is that you can heat it up and it will soften for broadhead or ferrule removal. Overall my impression is that the stuff works best on a rough surface where it can enter pores and get agood grip. I've had some instances where points have pulled off in hay bales,and I attributed this to lack of enough glue or a smooth surface. Since bamboo ferrule areas are smooth, it seems there may be a problem with ferrules pulling off? Anyway, if this isn't the same glue referred to then disregard this. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 9 18:45:51 1996 with SMTP id SAA02784 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 18:45:49 -0500 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA23542 for; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:15:51 -0700 Organization: Bohls Financial Services Subject: Re: List Members currently making rods CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: I'm currently working on convincing my spouse that I need to purchaserodmaking equipment so I can give it a try. I would appreciate any tipson"spouse convincing" that some of you pro's out there on the list couldprovide. Thanks in advance for your assistance. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu I can say "HELP" to that as well !!!!! Fred from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Jul 9 18:54:50 1996 with SMTP id SAA03094 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 18:54:49 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:55:49 -0400 Subject: Spousal Verbiage Mac -Many of us have gone about getting into rod making in different ways - Iam a staunch DYI type - and even though I spent a year and a half to finishmy first rod the initial cost was only about $60.00 - I hand madepracticallyeverything -since then bamboo rod making has become something wellbeyond thehobby that I still call it - I have actually made a couple of buck at it. Theexpense becomes individual and only you know if it can fit into the budgetornot and at what rate. Eventually it won't be the economics of it that the wife will learn tohate (or like) - bamboo rod making , like anything enjoyable, can be timeconsuming. You will learn to listen to more music and watch less tv -don'tbuy just one stool for the workbench buy two (a his and hers). As for convincing phrases - It's only a couple of payments on a bass boat- I could MAKE that rod that you were going to buy me for a (choose event)gift - the other guys wives are letting them do it. Don't look past whining. Wayne from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 9 20:01:45 1996 with SMTP id UAA07522 for ; Tue, 9 Jul1996 20:01:43 -0500 dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA02151 for; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:01:40 -0700 Organization: Bohls Financial Services Subject: Re: Spousal Verbiage WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Mac -Many of us have gone about getting into rod making in different ways- Iam a staunch DYI type - and even though I spent a year and a half tofinishmy first rod the initial cost was only about $60.00 - I hand madepracticallyeverything -since then bamboo rod making has become something wellbeyond thehobby that I still call it - I have actually made a couple of buck at it. Theexpense becomes individual and only you know if it can fit into thebudget ornot and at what rate.Eventually it won't be the economics of it that the wife will learn tohate (or like) - bamboo rod making , like anything enjoyable, can be timeconsuming. You will learn to listen to more music and watch less tv -don'tbuy just one stool for the workbench buy two (a his and hers).As for convincing phrases - It's only a couple of payments on a bassboat- I could MAKE that rod that you were going to buy me for a (chooseevent)gift - the other guys wives are letting them do it. Don't look pastwhining. Wayne NOW I'M LEARNING from THE EXPERTS??? However, whining doesn'twork. Since I don't let my teenage daughter get away with 'other parants let their kids do it' Imust feel uncomfortable with that. My wife already complains about the littleuse that our 'Bass' boat gets -- (at least that's why I bought it). You folks can do better than this -- I need REAL HELP. Maybe I'd better deferr to Zern for real help..... Fred from jsbond@inforamp.net Wed Jul 10 06:38:43 1996 ESMTP id GAA01542 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199606:38:42 -0500 VAA25227 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:16:55 - Subject: Re: Kirkfield Book There aren't many copies around, leave your name with a dealer and havehimkeep his eyes open. They are a bit expensive too. jb I'm looking for a copy of Stuart Kirkfield's book: "The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod -- A Master's Secrets of Restoration and Repair". Anglers Art doesn't have it nor do my other sources. Any Suggestions? Fred Bohls ----------------------------------------------------James Bond, Toronto, Canada - FAX 416-444-4196 Fledgling cane rod builder, fly tyer and collectorof modern collectable angling books. I don't fish enough, but who does? "On the road to Mandalay,Where the flyin' fishes play,An' the dawn comes up like thunder outer China'crost the Bay!" Rudyard Kipling 1865-1936---------------------------------------------------- from TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org Wed Jul 10 06:45:47 1996 with SMTP id GAA03000 for ; Wed, 10 Jul1996 06:45:45 -0500 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA15480 for; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:08:33 -0400 Wed, 10 Jul 96 6:45:00 EST5EDT EST5EDT Wed, 10 Jul 96 6:44:46 EST5EDT Subject: Re: Spouse Convincing (Was re list members currently...)Priority: normal Hello all, Gathering stuff a little at a time helps, as much as I would of wanted to buy it all at once, I know Jill would of balked at the cost. Same goes for fly tying, she still thinks its a great deal. All those flies I tie for next to nothing!!! I even sold a few. If I bought all the flies I've used and will use at Orvis, it would still cost less than all my tying materials. I like the idea of two stools, I know she won't join me but she'd love the offer. Maybe even put here name on it. That will be worthat least two hours of shop time, complaint free. Maybe even a Hock blade Tom - trying to pull the wool over my wife's eyes, but not succeeding - Ausfeld (sorry Mike, but its contagious)Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Wed Jul 10 07:00:33 1996 ESMTP id HAA00175 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199607:00:26 -0500 #14244) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, Subject: list members currently making rods Rebuilding an 8'6"-5 H-I. Building from a blank by Charlie Campbell-CacheLa Poudre Cane Works a 7'6"-4. Really enjoy the list and all theconversations. Grayling sounds fun but its a long way. Someday would liketo build my own. from rcurry@handel.jlc.net Wed Jul 10 07:21:21 1996 SMTP id HAA01973 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199607:21:19 -0500 Subject: A taper The following taper is from a no-name rod that has been refinished bymany hands. The is an 8'3", 3/2, 5wt., Calcutta cane rod, with stainless-steel ferrules, and a delightful, truly unique, parabolic action. Both tips are 32.375" long. Mid and butt are 35.375" long.Varnish thickness (total) probably .004", measurements are as read.The following taper is in 5" increments because I'm so courteous andthat's the demented method of choice.:) Please someone explain to me why five inches?? Is this something Freudian about Garrison that I really don'twant to know? 0 .0675 .07710 .08915 .10120 .11525 .12430 .136Ferrule - stepdown - Shoulder @ 31.5"35 .15640 .16345 .17750 .18755 .19760 .206 65 .218Ferrule - shoulder @ 66.070 .23875 .25880 .27785 .29090 .302Grip starts @ 91.875 Best regards,Reed P.S. - Tom Ausfeld, this is the rod you liked. from flyh2o@mtsi.com Wed Jul 10 07:22:22 1996 SMTP id HAA02024 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199607:22:20 -0500 Subject: RE: List Members Currently Making Rods At 02:43 PM 7/9/96 -0500, you wrote:My name is Frank and I'm a rodbuilder... Well, I'm trying anyway. I'm working on my second cane rod(my first is locked in the attic with other grotesque familysecrets). I'm aiming at Wayne's 7'0" 4wt taper since it came highly recommended on this group. The final planing on the butt section was almost done when I decided to see how far a strip would bend without breaking and found it was just a little less than I thought. My goal is to have it done beforethe end of our trout season (Sept 30). Currently work is stalled as I promised my wife a cherry writing desk for ouranniversary. To Patrick O'Hearn: My mother's maiden name is O'Hearn; maybeyour some distant cousin or something. Any relatives in westernWisconsin? I have a distant relation on my father's side whois/was a guide for Kaufmann's (Randall Stetzer). So far, he hasn't invited my out to go fishing.........................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterInformation and Media Technologies than a waterproof coat and a Univ Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. Frank, your distant relative (Randy) is still at Kaufmann's, but doesn't domuch guiding these days. As you probably know, he is a cane afficionadoandone of the best casters you will see. He wasn't wired into the net yet lasttime I talked to him.Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state.:Tom McGuane from flyh2o@mtsi.com Wed Jul 10 07:22:25 1996 SMTP id HAA02030 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199607:22:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Spouse Convincing (Was re list members currently...) At 06:14 PM 7/9/96 +0000, you wrote:Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 14:10:07 PDT From: "CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL" Subject: re: List Members currently making rods I'm currently working on convincing my spouse that I need to purchase rodmaking equipment so I can give it a try. I would appreciate any tipson "spouse convincing" that some of you pro's out there on the list could provide. Thanks in advance for your assistance. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu 1. Tell her the rod is for her to use, and will be an extensive labour of love. 2. Buy her a new sewing machine and tell her you will need her help 3. The time and expense invested will pay off in "absence makes the heart grow fonder." 4. Promise her some additional income when your rods become famous. 5. Promise that you will give her much credit so that if your rods do become classics, she will have a place in history. 6. Lie to her about the cost. Good Luck, hahahahahaIan ScottWishbone Custom Rods wishbone@headwaters.comhttp://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone ********************************************************************************************* "The butterfly counts not months but moments,and has time enough." Rabindranath TagoreFireflies, 1928 If it works for Nike, maybe it will work for you....Just Do It!Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state.:Tom McGuane from oborge@uno.aiss.uic.edu Wed Jul 10 07:25:54 1996 ESMTP id HAA02277 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199607:25:53 -0500 userv.aiss.uiuc.edu (8.7.4/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA13786; Wed, 10 Jul1996 07:25:52 -0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Spousal Verbiage Encoding: 53 TEXT Sell the bass boat.........! ---------- Subject: Re: Spousal Verbiage WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Mac -Many of us have gone about getting into rod making in different ways - Iam a staunch DYI type - and even though I spent a year and a half to finishmy first rod the initial cost was only about $60.00 - I hand made practicallyeverything -since then bamboo rod making has become something wellbeyond thehobby that I still call it - I have actually made a couple of buck at it. Theexpense becomes individual and only you know if it can fit into thebudget ornot and at what rate.Eventually it won't be the economics of it that the wife will learn tohate (or like) - bamboo rod making , like anything enjoyable, can be timeconsuming. You will learn to listen to more music and watch less tv - don'tbuy just one stool for the workbench buy two (a his and hers).As for convincing phrases - It's only a couple of payments on a bass boat- I could MAKE that rod that you were going to buy me for a (chooseevent)gift - the other guys wives are letting them do it. Don't look past whining. Wayne NOW I'M LEARNING from THE EXPERTS??? However, whining doesn'twork. Since I don'tlet my teenage daughter get away with 'other parants let their kids do it' I mustfeel uncomfortable with that. My wife already complains about the little use thatour 'Bass' boat gets -- (at least that's why I bought it). You folks can do better than this -- I need REAL HELP. Maybe I'd better deferr to Zern for real help..... Fred from neuneman@fh-ge.de Wed Jul 10 07:40:56 1996 07:40:07 -0500 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA20015; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:47:39 +0200 Organization: Fachhochschule Gelsenkirchen (Germany) Subject: Re: Kirkfield Book Fred Bohls, CFP wrote: I'm looking for a copy of Stuart Kirkfield's book: "The Fine Bamboo FlyRod -- A Master's Secrets of Restoration and Repair". Anglers Artdoesn't have it nor do my other sources. Any Suggestions? Fred Bohls I bought my copy from Anglers Art, Carlisle, PA. With a little luck you can get a copy. Frank Neunemann from neuneman@fh-ge.de Wed Jul 10 07:56:14 1996 07:54:54 -0500 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA20048; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:02:23 +0200 Organization: Fachhochschule Gelsenkirchen (Germany) Subject: Re: Setting Gauge - Was: Milward Binder Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn) wrote: If I zero my dial gauge on a flat surface and use it toset my planing form, the splines end up being about .005 too large. This is caused by having broke a little bit of the tip off - get a newtip orperhaps one of the setting gauges mentioned here earlier. I know thatafterseveral years of stubbornness I am make a setting gauge. Wayne I thought about that... The tip is sharp, and is at 60 degrees.How do you make a setting gauge? Darryl There is no real sharp tip. The tip on my dial indicator seems to be perfectly sharp, too, but in fact it has a flat spot of about 0.15 mm. Set the depth using you depth gage, plane a strip, mic it and adjust your depth gage according to the tolerance you've got. Frank Neunemann from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Jul 10 10:01:11 1996 with SMTP id KAA18610 for ; Wed, 10 Jul1996 10:01:10 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:02:46 -0400 Subject: Roscoe II ??????? Not having talked to Bob or Ken in a while - has anyone heard anythingabouta Roscoe II?? from the dates that Bob had mentioned Miles Tiernan, Lyndi ,and I have planned on to go fishing somewhere in the east Sept 7, 8 -whichway do we point the trout truck??? Wayne from rmoon@dns.ida.net Wed Jul 10 10:35:52 1996 KAA22206 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:35:50-0500 Subject: Re: Timber rods (was Listmem...) KilchsGray@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 96-07-09 15:33:27 EDT, you write: I am doing some planning on some greenheart rods. I was fortunateenough to get some good greenheart some time ago and I have a few oldgreenhearts that need replacment of sections, then I hope to be able tobuild one somewhere in the 12-15' range for myself. The trouble is, Istill get a sick feeling when I think of cutting that beautiful wood. Dear Mr. Moon, et al, My "rodbuilding" so far is limited to wrapping one cane rod on aPartridge blank, but I am deeply interested in two-handers and solidwoodrods. Any inf re: finding greenheart, washaba, dagama, lancewood, orotherrodbuilding woods would be very much appreciated. If this is too far offtopic for the List, please email.More to the topic: has anyone tried to do a cane rod with splicedjoints? --Roger Wiggin Dear Roger: My interest in historical rods started while I was curator of the International Fly Fisahing Center in West Yellowstone. The museum had a number of very fine hardwood rods and I had an opportunity to handle them. A friend gave me a number of older rods but there was not a full one in the bunch all had 1 or more sections missing. I thought then of doing some museum quality restoration on those so that they might be exhibited. I started by looking for Greenheart. After a year of checking with hardwood dealers I finally located a source somewhere in the east for 2x4's. I didn't get any because I was not sure if 2x4's would work and secondly I was a little dubious of buying sight unseen expensive wood that had to meet my minimum qualifications. I searched ago, I dropped by a lumber yard called Handloggers near Sausalito. The firm deals only in rare woods and rarely keeps any continuing stock since as their name implies they generally buy and cut specific trees. I was fortunate enough to be there when they had two large bales of Greenheart and I purchased a plank about 1 1/4 x13" by 7'. It is beautifully grained and as I indicated I have been reluctant to cut it. (Yeah, I know it is irrational, but that's the way I am. I have not been successful in locating kany other rod building hardwoods, but except for lancewood and snakewood, I have not searched very assiduously. I hope that this may be of some value to you even if it is primarily negative. I'll be glad to keep you on my e-mail list and let you know how I do if you would like. Sincerely Ralph W. Moon from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Wed Jul 10 10:44:03 1996 KAA23211 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:43:58 -0500 Subject: Belting for a Milward Binder I called Small Part in Flordia about a drive belt for a Milward Binder.What they show is a Flexible Polyurethane tubing. Is that correct, Tubing?So is the correct number for a 1/4" sheave A-207015? Bob Berry Flatland Fly Fisher (FFF) but not for Bass from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Wed Jul 10 11:04:31 1996 LAA25725 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:04:29 -0500 Subject: Kirkfield Book If all else fails in finding Kirkfields' book, try Charles Readinger Fly shop in Lebanon, Missouri. I don't know the number but the area code is 417.The lord and Charlie only know whats in his shop, he can dredge up almostanything related to flyfishing. He has a large selection of books.Hope it works for you. Bob Berry (FFF) from rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com Wed Jul 10 11:43:10 1996 SMTP id LAA28474 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199611:43:05 -0500 (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA185122995; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:36:35 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: permission I find it hard to believe that someone has to ask their spouse for permission to spend money for anything. I suppose if they have to ask permission to buy anotheer pair of shoes or another purse (money spent by the average wife on shoes and purses is much more than tooling for flyrod building) than i could understand asking for permission. My wife has never asked my permission to buy anything and i have never had to ask her.Judging from the comments so far this is probably highly unusual and i am the luckiest man in world or i'm the only one who has it the way its supposed to be. On another subject has anybody come up for a source for bambo out here in the west? Also is there a reason that eight foot and longer are three piece and not two peice, if you have a 12 foot culm it seems to me it could be two piece unless theres a reason that i dont know about.Having fished on a 8 foot two piece bambo rod i have no knowledge on whether or not two ferrules on a rod negatively effect the action to a great degree or not.Having been a journeymane luthier for eight years i found two things that were constant:a) Its easier to make a piece of wood/bamboo shorter than it is to makeit longer.b) Tooling is the very last thing that you want to scrimp on. patrick from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Wed Jul 10 11:45:24 1996 SMTP id LAA28703 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199611:45:21 -0500 KAA12382; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:45:19 -0600 Subject: Milward Binder OK guys, looks like I recieved as many questions as answers. So here goes. Yes I did use URAC. It did seem thick but this being my firsy rod, how thick is too thick. mixed at 4 to 1 as in both books. As far as the Milward binder I did have fairly soft springs in the binder. I am closeto getting ready for glueng a second rod and have replaced the springs with stonger springs, but now notice a tendecy to twist toward the end of the wrap. (too much tension?) Seems to me that one of the advantages of the Garrison binder is the controlled weighting for tension, with the milward how do you know how much tension you are applying? As for glue lines, with my middle aged eyes, What lines? on closer examination under magifying lamp I can see some glue line. (and lots of problems around the nodes) How much of a glue line is too much? As for as setting the forms improperly with the depth guage, I only used the gauge to get the setting close the planed the first strip and adjustedto the correct deminsion as measured with calipers. Then planed the rest to that adjustment. Now to too much pressure from the calipers. This was my first thought,as I think with repeated measurements on the same 5" place on the splines probably did do some damage. I plan to call George Mauer for the V-block today. I did not want to post the taper for every one to see how far I missed the mark, but if it will help in diagnosing the problem here it is. Please keep in mind this is my first attempt : ) Waynes finished increase %increse Spec. dem. 00 068 071 .003 4.4 05 070 073 .003 4.3 `10 082 085 .003 3.715 102 107 .005 4.920 123 129 .006 4.925 137 145 .008 5.830 152 161 .009 5.935 166 176 .010 6.040 184 189 .005 2.745 206 215 .009 4.450 214 224 .010 4.755 220 230 .010 4.560 244 259 .015 6.165 258 268 .010 3.970 272 283 .011 4.0 I would appreciate any insights and hope I am not boring any one with such basic stuff, but all help is greatly appreciated. Iwould have never gotten this far without this group. Thanks again, Jim Fillpot from GDAVIS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU Wed Jul 10 12:17:26 1996 SMTP id MAA03094 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199612:17:24 -0500 Subject: Kirkfield Book I have read some out-of-print books I could never otherwise afford libraries. Grayson Davis from TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org Wed Jul 10 12:41:13 1996 with SMTP id MAA06719 for ; Wed, 10 Jul1996 12:41:10 -0500 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA31679 for; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:41:08 -0400 Wed, 10 Jul 96 13:17:34 EST5EDT EST5EDT Wed, 10 Jul 96 13:17:18 EST5EDT Subject: Timber rods...Priority: normal Hello all, I have a "wooden rod" my wife bought several years ago, I never gave it much thought or attention. It casts ok. How do I go about any markings, I'll double check tonite. thanks from tfinger@services.state.mo.us Wed Jul 10 12:41:17 1996 MAA06740 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:41:16-0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is Organization: Missouri House of Representatives Subject: Re: Kirkfield BookPriority: normal To add to Bob Berry's posting, the phone number for Charlie Reading's shop in Lebanon, MO, is (417) 588-4334. Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us from wishbone@headwaters.com Wed Jul 10 12:55:44 1996 SMTP id MAA09397 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199612:55:41 -0500 ns1.bellglobal.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA07322 for; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:53:04 -0400 (5.65/1.1.8.2/12Aug95-0226PM) Comments: Authenticated sender is Subject: Re: permission Priority: normal Seeing as you brought it up Pat!! Haha, well I guess it all depends on eaches financial situation, and what arrangements have been made with the spouse. I guess Pat, it is not so much asking permission, it is more attempting to convince the spouse that it is a worthwhile thing to spend Family money on, out of respect for that person. I mean if the bank account has 1500.00, and each spouse wants something that costs 1000.00, well, you gotta come to some arrangement, no? If you are lucky enough to be in a financial situation whereby you and your spouse do not have to worry about what you spend your money on, and that your family is in such a position that there are no worries about bills and so forth, that is fantastic. But, some are not in such a position, and, often spouses do consult with each other, just out of respect, if nothing else. Even if you can completely afford the item, it would make the other half feel that much more important that you value there opinion on a plan of spending. Anyhow, I know this list is not about marital relations, and believe me I am know expert on the matter, however, I felt I had to respond. It is not really asking permission, it is an attempt to keep good relations without envyings and jealosies about where money is being spent!! And dont take any offence, I mean this all in good fun and lightness.Ian ScottWishbone Custom Rods wishbone@headwaters.comhttp://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone ********************************************************************************************* "The butterfly counts not months but moments,and has time enough." Rabindranath TagoreFireflies, 1928 from jonrc@atlantic.net Wed Jul 10 13:29:58 1996 ESMTP id NAA13360 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199613:29:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Roscoe II ??????? WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Not having talked to Bob or Ken in a while - has anyone heard anythingabouta Roscoe II?? from the dates that Bob had mentioned Miles Tiernan,Lyndi ,and I have planned on to go fishing somewhere in the east Sept 7, 8 -whichway do we point the trout truck??? Wayne Wayne, I was talking to George Maurer the other day and he told me it was goingto be September 13th and 14th, though I have not heard anything form those thatare organizing it. I will not be able to make it this year, I've got a fishing trip planned for Colorado that week. Jonathan, Clarke -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and time again.Casting and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running the length of the cane rodallowing the angler just a glimpse of the mystery below the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Jul 10 13:35:22 1996 with SMTP id NAA13681 for ; Wed, 10 Jul1996 13:35:20 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:35:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Spousal Verbiage Folks (mostly fellas)My wife is a very patient woman - who over the 22 years of ourmarriagehas allowed me to do somewhat as I will - in return I have alwayssupportedher in what she wants. I have always been cautious about encouragingothersin spending money. I won't even mention how much I have invested intothislittle hobby.But if one were to ask counsel of the 'clubhouse' group on a saturdaynight after a few 'cocktails' I'm sure the phrase "testicularcircumferance"might be tossed about a bit. Wasn't there something like this in a recentbook "Fly fishing Through a Mid - Life Crisis" - where the fella asked hiswife if he could go fishing and she responded by saying that they wouldsee -the referance was about being handed one's antlers.As I said in the original post each of us need to evaluate our owncircumstance in life and make a decision from that. Wayne But remember that you're getting an answer from a person with NOmortage,NO car payments, a job refered to as "the Golden Handcuffs", 3 out of 4members of the family fly fish and make money at making bamboo flyrods.Itcould be slanted. from jonrc@atlantic.net Wed Jul 10 13:35:38 1996 ESMTP id NAA13692 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 199613:35:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Belting for a Milward Binder bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us wrote: I called Small Part in Flordia about a drive belt for a Milward Binder.What they show is a Flexible Polyurethane tubing. Is that correct,Tubing?So is the correct number for a 1/4" sheave A-207015? Bob Berry Flatland Fly Fisher (FFF) but not for Bass Bob, I just bought some from a LOCAL belt and bearing place, it is called"Orange Go". Call around you may be able to find it locally. Jonatahn Clarke -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and time again.Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together, the flyis taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running the length of the cane rodallowing the angler just a glimpse of the mystery below the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from JCZIMNY@dol.net Wed Jul 10 13:54:03 1996 NAA14758 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:54:01 -0500 Subject: Polymer Belting I use that drive belting from Small Parts in a lot of different applications in my rodmaking. It is not tube. It is solid. All you do is to cut it to 80% of the length you need, then heat both ends with a flame and stick together. Clean up the joint and stretch it on to the pulley or sheave assembly. No need for an idler to tension the belt. Works good even in high speed applications ie, 3500 rpms.John Zimny from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Wed Jul 10 14:23:15 1996 SMTP id OAA16471 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:23:14 -0500 CDT Subject: RODMAKERS Archives Good news folks!!! I was FINALLY successful in getting the LISTPROC gods to turn on our Archiving functions. What this means is that from nowon, all your words of wisdom will be automatically archived retrieved using standard LISTPROC commands (I'll attach thecommands at the end of this). The unfortunate thing is that we did not have this from thebeginning so everything up until this point has been keptmanually. Those archives will be maintained on the RODMAKERSwebpage that Jerry Foster set up, and will include messages from January, 1995 thru today. All future messages will bestored on the RODMAKERS ListProc server. I would suggest you try out some of the following archivecommands to get a feel for what's out there and how itworks. If you have any problems, please let me know andI will try to get it figured out. Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=All archive commands should be sent to the LISTPROC address.The LISTPROC address is: listproc@mail.wustl.edu The archive commands of interest to us are: (our archives are not setup as 'private' so the password option inthe below commands is not needed): index RODMAKERS [/password] [-all]-------------------------------------------------- --Get a list of files in the selected archive, or the master archive if noarchive was specified. If an archive is private, you have to provide itspassword as well. search RODMAKERS [/password] [-all] ----------------------------------------------- -----------------Search all files of the specified archive (and all of its subarchives if -allis specified) for lines that match the pattern. The pattern can be anegrep(1)-style regular expression with support for the followingadditionaloperators: '~' (negation), '|' and '&' (logical OR and AND), '' (groupregular expressions). The pattern may be enclosed in single or doublequotes.Note: . matches any character including new line. get RODMAKERS [/password] [parts]------------------------------------------------ ----------Get the requested file from the specified archive. Files are usually split inparts locally, and in such a case you will receive the file in multiple emailmessages -- an 'index' request tells you how many parts the file has beensplitinto, and their sizes; if you need to obtain certain parts, specify them asoptional arguments. If an archive is private, you have to provide itspasswordas well. from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Wed Jul 10 14:56:28 1996 OAA18458 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:56:26 -0500 Subject: The quote The trick "never"worksRocket J. Squirrel B.B. (FFF) from maiello@yorku.ca Wed Jul 10 15:32:53 1996 with SMTP id PAA20801 for ; Wed, 10 Jul1996 15:32:52 -0500 (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id QAA21162 for; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:32:52 - 0400 doing -bs Subject: Re: Spousal Verbiage I had to get in on this one. You guys should have started building rods BEFORE you got hitched.I'm getting married in Aug /97, and have already gotten most of thestuff I need. She has NO choice in the matter. She's getting married toa rod maker, if she doesn't like it, she can leave me! If I start making some money at it, then I can justify a lathe, betterforms, etc, etc. The way to sell it to your wife, is that its a buisness investment.Convince her that people are willing to pay BIG BUCKS for a rod, and tellher that you will give her some, or take her somewhere, or buy hersomething, and see how fast she starts telling you to get to "work". Mauro from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Wed Jul 10 21:35:45 1996 VAA11237 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:35:39 -0500 Subject: Dial Indicator Point I'm not sure who I'm resonding to on the setting of the dial indicator/depth gauge, but it sound like you need a new point for the depth gauge. I just bought one a couple of week ago from a Sterett (sp) dealer. The cost was under $5.00 but they did have to order it. As far as finding the depthof you forms I still working on this one. The reason is is if I push the plunger up in to the body of gauge using a 60 degree point that start the measure from the point. Now when I lower the point into the form thepointextend below the bottom of the form grove. So I don't really know thedepthof my grove in the forms. I'm working on this one. I like Frank Neunemann accoringly. I'm still a newbie wating for the first rod to fall out but thiswasmy IMHO. Thank for the opportunity Bob Berry (FFF) from 76375.2274@CompuServe.COM Wed Jul 10 23:47:30 1996 (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id XAA16550 for; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:47:29 - 0500 Subject: Polymer Belting I would like to get some of the belting and need an address or number forSmallParts, can't believe that I don't have their cataloge, mailman swears Imusthave everyone that was ever printed. Thank you for your help. Chuck Irvine from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Thu Jul 11 09:12:23 1996 JAA03776 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:12:21 -0500 Subject: Address for Small Parts Inc. The Address for Small Parts Inc. is as follows13980 N.W. 58th CortP.O. Box 4650Miami Lakes Fl. 33014-0650Customer Service (305) 557-7955Fax 1- 800 423-9009 They have a 800 number but I don't have it in front of me. Hope this helps B. Berry (FFF) from Fallcreek9@aol.com Thu Jul 11 18:41:22 1996 with SMTP id SAA16654 for ; Thu, 11 Jul1996 18:41:21 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:42:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Polymer Belting In a message dated 96-07-11 00:53:16 EDT, you write: I would like to get some of the belting and need an address or number forSmallParts, can't believe that I don't have their cataloge, mailman swears Imusthave everyone that was ever printed. Thank you for your help. Chuck Irvine Hey Chuck: Its a great catalog, and the belting works great. I'm not sure which listguy we owe for first bringing it up (Curry, Conner, ???), but my thanks toheim. Pho : 800-220-4242Fax : 800-423-9009 Enjoy. RTyree from richjez@wwa.com Fri Jul 12 00:42:15 1996 SMTP id AAA01733 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 199600:42:14 -0500 Subject: Re: List Members currently making rods Try the Kirkfield book for some heavy rod tapers. If you don't have it, I can send you the tapers though the book is worth having.I am interested in your untralight spinning rod. It sounds neat. Others onthe list might be interested in hearing how it works out too. Mayed the tapers too. Richard Tyree had a real nice spinning rod a Grayling. Rich Jezioro *_________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @ / /|| __________________________________________________|| /\ / \ > > > from richjez@wwa.com Fri Jul 12 00:42:16 1996 SMTP id AAA01738 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 199600:42:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Kirkfield Book I got my Kirkfield book at: Clayton RawnRoaring Fork Outfitters, Ltd.2577 Waukegan RoadBannockburn, IL 60015800-750-3675 I hope this helpsRich*_________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @ / /|| __________________________________________________|| /\ / \ > > > from richjez@wwa.com Fri Jul 12 00:53:10 1996 SMTP id AAA02126 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 199600:53:10 -0500 Subject: Re: List Members currently making rods OOps, I ment the Krider bookRich *_________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @ / /|| __________________________________________________|| /\ / \ > > > from TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org Fri Jul 12 07:45:40 1996 with SMTP id HAA03339 for ; Fri, 12 Jul1996 07:45:36 -0500 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA26069 for; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:45:34 -0400 Fri, 12 Jul 96 8:21:53 EST5EDT EST5EDT Fri, 12 Jul 96 8:21:43 EST5EDT Subject: Grayling NamePriority: normal Hello all, I know this is similar to the newsletter but I thought it was appropriate: The Planing Forum Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from Fallcreek9@aol.com Fri Jul 12 07:49:31 1996 with SMTP id HAA03436 for ; Fri, 12 Jul1996 07:49:30 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:50:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Belting for a Milward Binder Bob:Try A-PRB-4, pg 288 (catalog # 16)Regards,RTyree from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Fri Jul 12 09:14:45 1996 SMTP id JAA07408 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:14:44 -0500 Subject: GraylingGathering '97 With Tom's latest addition, I'll attach what we've got so far. entry of "Bamboo Rendezvous". Has sort of a nice ring to it, I think. Also, any of you that have a clear preference to what has been sent inso far, please post it to the list. I'll start tabulating the votes. Still not too late to send in suggestions... Mike - tabulator - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The Greater Grayrock Bamboo Rod, Bent Hackle, Balded Bambi,and Grain Futures Appreciation Society Wayne Cattanach RODMAKERS Encounter I Mike Biondo RODMAKERS raising CANE Jerry Ballard Brotherhood (of) All Makers (of) Bamboo Originals Outing (BAMBOO I)Jack Bewley Bamboo-zers I Tim Lane Woodstock (well, ok then... "Canestock") Tim Lane Bamboo Boogie Victor Edwards Rod Rendezous Victor Edwards Arundinaria Assembly Victor Edwards Split Cane Stop (or Station) Victor Edwards Makers Meet Victor Edwards Spare-the-Rod or A Good Caning Bruce Conner Plain Cane Planers James Bond. Bamboo Rendezvous CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL The Caneards Convention Gary LandryAccording to the dictionary the suffix -ard means - One that habitually orexcessively is in a specified condition or performs a specified action. Cane Rod Aficionados, Makers, and Purveyors Social Reed Curry(CRAMPS for short. This would go well with the results of eating toomuch at the Barbeque. Great food, Victor!) The Bamboo Rodmakers Gathering at Grayling Jonathan Clarke B.G.'s aka BeeGees(BamBoo Grayling Gathering (BB-GG's) Tim Lane The Planing Forum Tom Ausfeld from cbogart@ibm.net Sat Jul 13 10:04:23 1996 SMTP id KAA29904 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 199610:04:22 -0500 1996 11:05:19 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Ferrule glue Christopher I recieved the Ferr-L-tite and it appears to be the same hot meltthat you are familiar with. I would suggest people using their heat gunsvice butane lighters or other simular sources of heat. Second, as peoplementioned, cleaning ferrules prior to glueing would help remove dirt and residue flux from soldering. If you want to take some fine sandpaper and"rough" up the interior of the ferrule it would be fine. I have been using Devcon epoxy like a number of others. Removinga ferrule can be difficult and damn near impossible for repair orreplacemnetof a section. This hot melt would have solved at least one problem amakerhad at Grayling where his tabs of the ferrule were flared out and heldtheirpermanently by the epoxy. I plan to give this glue a try on an experimental rod I am building(as part of my mid summer madness) that I will use it on. Bailey Woodswears Another use for this glue is to attach the cap of your cap and ringreel seat. Makes for easy removal and repair latter on. I have been usingthe hot melt for attaching tip-tops for that purpose but I will switch tothisglue for that purpose. Now for the good news - it is only $2.50 a stick and should last alongtime - cheap investment to try. P.S. I havn't had to pull a rod out of a bale of hay yet. I have hadother unfortunate experieces but not that one - something to look forwardto. Chris from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sun Jul 14 09:41:54 1996 with SMTP id JAA02035 for ; Sun, 14 Jul1996 09:41:52 -0500 RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:53:20 -0400 Subject: Urac In a message dated 96-07-10 13:37:09 EDT, Jim Fillpot wrote: OK guys, looks like I recieved as many questions as answers. So here goes. Yes I did use URAC. It did seem thick but this being my firsy rod, how thick is too thick. mixed at 4 to 1 as in both books. As far as the Milward binder I did have fairly soft springs in the binder. I am close to Hi Jim: The info I got from John Zimny is that Urac is mfgd for theplywoodindustry, hence the catalyst is in the powder which is ground walnutshells.The powder is intended to be a filler of voids in the mfg of plywood. Hegotthat from the mfg of urac. As suggested by the manufacturer, the mixproduces a mixture that is quite thick...at least that has been myexperience.As I understand it, and it is with their blessing, John recommendsamoniumchloride(NH4CL) as the catalyst, sans powder. Source of NH4CL: The Science fair 140 College SquareNewark DE 19711(302) 453-1817They will package 500 grams (lifetime supply)of regent (sp?) grade for approx$25.oo Might package less is requested. Procedure for use: Mix AmChl 5% to 10% into solution with DistilledWaterMix the solution 10% into the Urac liquid.This produces a 1-/2 to 1 % catalyst mix thatprovides a good pot life and adhesive that is thinner than withthe suppliedpowder/catalyst. I have used this with goodresults on the last four rods glued up. I would appreciate any insights and hope I am not boring any one with such basic stuff, but all help is greatly appreciated. I would have never gotten this far without this group. Thanks again, Jim Fillpot Thanks for the taper. I suspect that most of us got most of what we havelearned about bamboo from others; at least I have. I enjoy relating myexperiences so keep up the questions. Best Regards,RTyree from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sun Jul 14 09:47:07 1996 SMTP id JAA03241 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 199609:47:05 -0500 0600 Subject: Hot Glues for Ferrules Chris and others, The hot glues seem to come in a number of formulatons - some melt @very lowtemperatures so chose your glue correctly. I use glues that are available @the local craft shop and select the higher melt variety. If you use or storethe rod in a hot enviornment, creeping of the glue joint could/will occur.I've been there. Ferrules seem to be OK in this service as long as they arekept cool but reel seats where there is constant stress of the reel footpressing the cap off will cause the cap to become somewhat loose as thecapslid marginally. When fishing a lot and moving from place to place, I putthe rod on the dash of my truck. The sunlight/heat caused a glue ferrulefailure when I assembled the rod, found the guides out of alignment andtried to disassemble it again. It was + 90 that day. Doesn't happen a lotup here so never gave the problem much thought till the failure. Certainlytip tops are OK with this glue. I pay about $.25/stick for the hot glues.Expect a lot less $'s south of border. Regards, Don from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sun Jul 14 09:47:29 1996 SMTP id JAA03278 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 199609:47:27 -0500 0600 Subject: Silk Fly Lines To all, I know that this is not the topic normally discussed here but I figured thatof all the folks in the fly fishing world, anyone who makes cane may be oldenough to remember silk lines. I'm not quite old enough - the first "good"line was a Cortland 333 bought in 1963. Silk was already gone from thescene. The Problem: Every year I get about 3 weeks to a month in southern Alberta for fishing.The wind has a tendency to blow down there. Normal daytime breezes mayexceed 30 mph 2 out of 5 days. The larger plastic coated lines are pushedall over the place and what I'm considering is the purchase of a used silklines. A friend seems to get a fair number of them with hisantique/collectable reel business and I would like to try one. The Question: Does anyone know of the correlation between silk and plastic coated lines.Iknow that silk lines used a lettering system. I remeber seeing HCH andHDHas a kid. No idea then what it meant and still the same now. I figure thatHCH etc. was double taper but does anyone know what that might mean intermsof grains/30 ft. which is the standard now? Regards, Don from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Sun Jul 14 10:17:41 1996 KAA06075 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 10:17:36 -0500 Subject: Lonely weerkend My gosh, nothng beem on the net. Eiter you have been fishing or schnickingaa new rod. Been work on some bamboo in the basement. No time for chitchat. When is the next meeting of the rodbuilders? Bob Berry (FFF) from tball@sunny.ncmc.cc.mi.us Sun Jul 14 11:04:08 1996 with ESMTP id LAA09515 for ; Sun, 14 Jul1996 11:04:06 -0500 Subject: re: List Members currently making rods Chris, all you have to do is let her use a bamboo rod just once. TOM On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: I'm currently working on convincing my spouse that I need to purchase rodmaking equipment so I can give it a try. I would appreciate any tipson "spouse convincing" that some of you pro's out there on the list could provide. Thanks in advance for your assistance. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from cbogart@ibm.net Sun Jul 14 11:51:05 1996 SMTP id LAA13317 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 199611:51:03 -0500 1996 12:48:29 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Hot Glues for Ferrules Don You're right. Choose the glue carefully. The reason I brought up the hot glue is thatthis is the one Bailey Wood reccomends (and sells) and it offers aalternative to the epoxies that have been mentioned. The epoxies aregreatuntil you want to remove a ferrule - I ended up drilling out the lasttwo I had to remove - they did not want to cooperate with less drastic measures. This appears to be a good method for putting ferruleson those "new taper" rods everyone likes to try now and then and knowyou can easily recover the ferrules. Chris from cbogart@ibm.net Sun Jul 14 11:56:50 1996 SMTP id LAA13569 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 199611:56:49 -0500 1996 12:54:15 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines Don In the back of Wayne's book (page 203) he has a cross referance chart that gives you the old / new line weight designations. This willget you in the ballpark. Going to silk lines will really help you gointo the wind (less air resistance due smaller dia.). Also based uponour line tests at Grayling - a silk line makes a bamboo rod comes alivecompared to almost any other line. The next best seems to be the oldair cell that Reed Curry had - none of the current lines appear to beas good. Chris from gord@teleport.com Sun Jul 14 14:32:16 1996 with ESMTP id OAA17955 for ; Sun, 14 Jul1996 14:32:15 -0500 MAA01473 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:28:36 Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines The Question: Does anyone know of the correlation between silk and plastic coatedlines. Iknow that silk lines used a lettering system. I remeber seeing HCH andHDHas a kid. No idea then what it meant and still the same now. I figure thatHCH etc. was double taper but does anyone know what that might mean intermsof grains/30 ft. which is the standard now? I have Haig-Brown's "A Primer of Fly-Fishing". Printed in '64 it has a bitabout the new numbers adopted January 1st, 1962. First, the letters were A=.060", B=.055", C=.050", D=.045", E=.040",F=.035", G=.030", H=.025", I=.022". I'd not known that. Mr. Haig-Brown states an HCH became a 7wt under the new system butdoesn'tdiscuss other lettered silk line's new designations. The first thirty feetare used to determine the lines weight under our new system. #3 94- 106grains, #4 114-126 gr, #5 134-146 gr, #6 152-168 gr, #7 177-193 gr, #8202-218 gr. Hope this helps... Cheers,Gordon from flyh2o@mtsi.com Sun Jul 14 19:08:52 1996 SMTP id TAA24283 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 199619:08:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines At 08:40 AM 7/14/96 -0600, you wrote:To all, I know that this is not the topic normally discussed here but I figuredthatof all the folks in the fly fishing world, anyone who makes cane may beoldenough to remember silk lines. I'm not quite old enough - the first "good"line was a Cortland 333 bought in 1963. Silk was already gone from thescene. The Problem: Every year I get about 3 weeks to a month in southern Alberta for fishing.The wind has a tendency to blow down there. Normal daytime breezes mayexceed 30 mph 2 out of 5 days. The larger plastic coated lines are pushedall over the place and what I'm considering is the purchase of a used silklines. A friend seems to get a fair number of them with hisantique/collectable reel business and I would like to try one. The Question: Does anyone know of the correlation between silk and plastic coatedlines. Iknow that silk lines used a lettering system. I remeber seeing HCH andHDHas a kid. No idea then what it meant and still the same now. I figure thatHCH etc. was double taper but does anyone know what that might mean intermsof grains/30 ft. which is the standard now? Regards, Don You have the info on line designations by now. As an aside, Orvis stillmakes their old "intermediate" line which is amber in color (like some silklines) and the diameters are finer than contemporary floatinglines.....unfortunately they only come in WF configuration except for theheavy lines for spey rods. I used to have some DTs and in 5 and 6 andthough I have only had the pleasure of fishing silk a couple of times, agreased intermediate is about as close to silk as anything I have seen.Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state.:Tom McGuane from r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Mon Jul 15 07:56:37 1996 with SMTP id HAA03066 for ; Mon, 15 Jul1996 07:56:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines New silk lines are available from Len Codella. Theprice is steep, however. About $180 as I recall.richard r_frank@foma.wsc.mass.edu Richard FrankDepartment of EducationWestfield State CollegeWestfield, MA 01086*****************************************I never get the last word!***************************************** from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Jul 15 08:44:37 1996 with SMTP id IAA00673 for ; Mon, 15 Jul1996 08:44:36 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:15:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines Don Andersen Says: "Every year I get about 3 weeks to a month in southern Alberta for fishing.The wind has a tendency to blow down there." You might also consider a modern intermediate weight line. I've used themforyears for salt water fishing and sometimes for trout also. They areexcellentin the wind. Orvis markets one that looks and feels very much like silk,theCourtland versions are nice also, but feel a little more dense to me. Thethings will float, ( sort of ) if you grease them, but I prefer them for wetflies and streamers. The're probably no worse than silk for dry fliesthough.Silk is nice to cast, if you can get a good used one, go for it. I certainlywouldn't pay the Pentagon type prices they want for a new one, however. -Tom Smithwick from pplumbo@che2.che.umn.edu Mon Jul 15 10:02:46 1996 SMTP id KAA06902 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 199610:02:45 -0500 15 Jul 96 10:02:51 CST6CDT CST6CDT 15 Jul 96 09:57:15 CST6CDT Subject: Re: Hot Glues for Ferrules Chris writes about removing epoxy... The epoxies are great until you want to remove a ferrule - I ended up drilling out the last two I had to remove - they did not want to cooperate with less drastic measures. Have you tried gentle heating? I've used epoxy for years and can debondit at will from most surfaces using a hot air gun, heating until theepoxy at the joint interface begins to deteriorate. It will weakenand begin to crumble after a few minutes exposure to heat. Work in a well ventilated area of course, and use a scraper to remove the weakened epoxy. -Phil Plumbo from HADN@chevron.com Mon Jul 15 12:22:13 1996 SMTP id MAA05719 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 199612:22:11 -0500 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:22:04 -0700 Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:22:04 -0700 Subject: RE: Hot Glues for Ferrules 4.0.838.14Encoding: 31 TEXT Chris writes about removing epoxy... The epoxies are great until you want to remove a ferrule - I ended up drilling out the last two I had to remove - they did not want to cooperate with less drastic measures. Have you tried gentle heating? I've used epoxy for years and can debondit at will from most surfaces using a hot air gun, heating until theepoxy at the joint interface begins to deteriorate. It will weakenand begin to crumble after a few minutes exposure to heat. Work in a well ventilated area of course, and use a scraper to remove the weakened epoxy. -Phil Plumbo Also, if you are not too concerned about the rod itself (seems to me the ferrule is the cheaper compared to the rod, but it may be a trashed rod), scrape away the winding and varnish around theferrule tabs and soak in acetone. Put acetone in a jar, immerseend of rod in the acetone, use tin foil around top of jar and rod.In a couple days the ferrule will pull right off. Acetone does a good job weakening set epoxy. It also does a good job deteriorating bamboo, so if the intent is to keep the blank,use the heat method. Darryl Hayashida from HADN@chevron.com Mon Jul 15 12:34:32 1996 SMTP id MAA07674 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 199612:34:27 -0500 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:34:25 -0700 Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:34:25 -0700 Subject: RE: Belting for a Milward Binder 4.0.838.14Encoding: 12 TEXT I used PVC tubing. I used a round file to cut a groovein the edge of the pulleys (made out of plywood). Ifound some PVC tubing sold at the local hardwarestore to fit in the grooves. It's the kind used for variouspurposes to pipe water around. To connect the endsI simply bought a short section of smaller tubing thatfits inside the tubing with a bit of friction. Works likea charm. Darryl Hayashida from rmoon@dns.ida.net Mon Jul 15 22:17:05 1996 WAA12710 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:17:03-0500 Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: Don Andersen Says: "Every year I get about 3 weeks to a month in southern Alberta forfishing.The wind has a tendency to blow down there." You might also consider a modern intermediate weight line. I've usedthem foryears for salt water fishing and sometimes for trout also. They areexcellentin the wind. Orvis markets one that looks and feels very much like silk,theCourtland versions are nice also, but feel a little more dense to me. Thethings will float, ( sort of ) if you grease them, but I prefer them forwetflies and streamers. The're probably no worse than silk for dry fliesthough.Silk is nice to cast, if you can get a good used one, go for it. I certainlywouldn't pay the Pentagon type prices they want for a new one, however. -Tom Smithwick Somewhere, sometime ago, I saw a procedure for renovating old stiffened silk lines. I don't remember where; can any one help? I have a couple of silk lines in good condition, but one is too stiff and coarse to be of much value and I'd like to try to reclaim it. Thanks Ralph Moon from rmoon@dns.ida.net Mon Jul 15 22:17:07 1996 WAA12715 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:17:06-0500 Subject: Re: Hot Glues for Ferrules Phil Plumbo wrote: Chris writes about removing epoxy... The epoxies are great until you want to remove a ferrule -I ended up drilling out the last two I had to remove - they didnot want to cooperate with less drastic measures. Have you tried gentle heating? I've used epoxy for years and can debondit at will from most surfaces using a hot air gun, heating until theepoxy at the joint interface begins to deteriorate. It will weakenand begin to crumble after a few minutes exposure to heat. Work in a well ventilated area of course, and use a scraper to removethe weakened epoxy. -Phil Plumbo I agree with Phil. Epoxy will break down with heat. The trick is to heat gently and slowly. You rush this operation and you have trouble.I don' like and don't use epoxy or hot glues for ferrule setting. I have used Urethane Bond made by Dow Corning for years and never had a failure and I have always been able to remove a ferrule if necessary with GENTLE heat. Urethane bond never dries rock hard and thus will not crack and powder as do hot melt glues and epoxy. It expands which gives the rodmaker a little plus in setting ferrules. The only place I will use a hot melt glue--and it must have a high temperature melting point-- is on a tip top. I don't like to use much heat on a delicate tip and for this purpose hot melt is ok if it has a highmelting point. from rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com Tue Jul 16 03:59:39 1996 SMTP id DAA21821 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 199603:59:36 -0500 (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA056076659; Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:04:19 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: bamboo and tooling This being the first time that i've bought non aged bamboo i'm not sure if i have to dry in the sun and/or age it before i can use it. If somebody could help me with this it would be greatly appreciated. I built a rod in a class taught by D. Holbrook years ago and he supplied some very old bamboo for those of use who took the class. Also does any- body have a source for a bamboo fro, the base for a dial indicator and the heating elements for a tempering oven or a oven it self. I bought a stainless steel dial caliper and was wondering has anybody tried putting a 60 degree notch in it in lew of using a mic with a anvil with a 60 deg notch in it, if so how deep should the notch be? I am working on a deal with a friend with a small machine shop to produce Garrison type control screws and possible roughed out cold rolled steel planing forms.if anybody is interested i will post his name/address and phone numberwhen he gets the particulars worked out and its not to cost prohibitive. Patrick from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Jul 16 07:31:22 1996 with SMTP id HAA01261 for ; Tue, 16 Jul1996 07:31:21 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:31:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines Ralph Moon writes:"Somewhere, sometime ago, I saw a procedure for renovating old stiffened silk lines. I don't remember where; can any one help?" Ralph - I have heard you can clean an old silk line with a mild detergentlike Ivory, dry it, and then polish with talcum powder. The line can then begreased with red tin mucilin.If the line is worn I think you can also re-varnish it, but you will have toask someone else about that procedure. If the line is stiff I think you canalso begin the cleaning process by washing it with turpentine. - TomSmithwick from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Tue Jul 16 08:47:27 1996 IAA03581 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:47:22 -0500 Subject: Bamboo Fro To Patrick CoffeyAt the present time I'm making a fro out of an old 10" table saw blade. I laid out a L on the blade just out side of the center hole and this will becut out. I will then sharpen the blade and attach a handle on the short partof the L. I think mine may be a little to wide so ther might be a lot ofgriding.As soon as got it close to sharpening I will have it tempered. Any cheapsaw blade will work, most have fairly good steel. Handle is just make out ofany wood. If you want to make your own and need a set of rough plans giveyourfax and I'll send you what I did Good Luck Bob Berry (FFF) from ballard@zen.wes.army.mil Tue Jul 16 10:19:13 1996 with SMTP id KAA00880 for ; Tue, 16 Jul1996 10:19:11 -0500 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) Subject: Block plane blade angles It's been quiet on the list lately, so... Does anyone have any experience with using a lower plane bladeangle than the 9 1/2 (21 degree angle)? I have been playing witha Stanley 60 1/2 (12 degree angle), which is virtually idential to the9 1/2 except for the blade angle, and I get lots of more (severe)splinteringand tearing around the nodes when planing than I do with the 9 1/2.I was hoping that the lower angle could give easier thinner cutsacross the cane. Both blades are have a good 30 degree angle sharpened prior to use -Jerry B. from gord@teleport.com Tue Jul 16 22:57:33 1996 with ESMTP id WAA15458 for ; Tue, 16 Jul1996 22:57:32 -0500 UAA09184 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:56:08 Subject: Re: Hot Glues for Ferrules At 10:02 AM 7/15/96 -0500, you wrote:Chris writes about removing epoxy... The epoxies are great until you want to remove a ferrule - I ended up drilling out the last two I had to remove - they did not want to cooperate with less drastic measures. Have you tried gentle heating? I've used epoxy for years and can debondit at will from most surfaces using a hot air gun, heating until theepoxy at the joint interface begins to deteriorate. It will weakenand begin to crumble after a few minutes exposure to heat. I agree... Heat will break the epoxy I've used (devcon 5 minute) but don'tapply too much heat. I discovered the solder in Bailey Woods ferrulesusinga torch. Cheers,Gordon from neuneman@fh-ge.de Wed Jul 17 01:10:10 1996 01:10:08 -0500 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA24811; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:17:49 +0200 Organization: Fachhochschule Gelsenkirchen (Germany) Subject: Re: bamboo and tooling Patrick Coffey wrote: This being the first time that i've bought non aged bamboo i'm not sureif i have to dry in the sun and/or age it before i can use it. Ifsomebody could help me with this it would be greatly appreciated. Ibuilt a rod in a class taught by D. Holbrook years ago and he suppliedsome very old bamboo for those of use who took the class. Patrick, if your bamboo is reasonably and evenly straw colored, you can build a rod from it. I did it was and I guess still is impossible to get aged bamboo, so (years ago) I had to settle withcoparatively "fresh" bamboo. I did some additional gentle heat treating to simulateaging, but I always used straw colored culms. If there is still some grayish-green shading on your culms, just exposethem to direct sunlight and after a few days the grayish-green tint will disappear. I thinkthat the importance of having "very old" bamboo to make good rods is prettyoverstressed. Good quality bamboo with lots of power fibers seems to be more important to me. Frank Neunemann from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Wed Jul 17 09:18:44 1996 SMTP id JAA28872 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:18:42 -0500 CDT Subject: Re: Lonely weerkend Bob - or was that Chuck - Berry sang out... :-) My gosh, nothng beem on the net. Eiter you have been fishing orschnicking aa new rod. Been work on some bamboo in the basement. No time for chitchat.When is the next meeting of the rodbuilders? Yep, been pretty quiet lately. Hopefully everyone is out USING thosenice cane rods instead of being cooped up planing them!!! :-) I for one unfortunately have been doing very little of either! :-(Pesky things like work keep interfering with the things I reallywould rather be doing. Fortunately though I have managed to sneak in a little fishing, andam making some progress on what I hope will turn out as a Leonard 38clone. Sure hope everyone else is managing a bit more fun... Mike - is it Friday yet - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from HADN@chevron.com Wed Jul 17 10:43:35 1996 SMTP id KAA05335 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 199610:43:31 -0500 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:42:18 -0700 Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:42:18 -0700 Subject: RE: Lonely weerkend 4.0.838.14Encoding: 48 TEXT I'm getting ready for my yearly week long fishing trip to the CaliforniaSierra Nevada Mtns. I bring my whole family, including my parents,and rent a condo. I finished my 8ft. 3 piece 4wt. I've test casted it, and it seems okay. Only a real fishing session will tell, though. To underscore how wonderful the Internet is, a fellow list memberrecognized my name and inquired as to my identity, and it turnsout that he had served with my Dad in the Army. Way back in themid 60's. He is meeting us at Mammoth CA this weekend to fishtogether and ask questions about bamboo rod making. He juststarted purchasing the tools and supplies. Looks like this will be a great trip. Darryl Hayashida ----------From: michael@wupsych.wustl.edu[SMTP:michael@wupsych.wustl.edu]Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 1996 1:49 AM Subject: Re: Lonely weerkend Bob - or was that Chuck - Berry sang out... :-) My gosh, nothng beem on the net. Eiter you have been fishing orschnicking aa new rod. Been work on some bamboo in the basement. No time forchit chat.When is the next meeting of the rodbuilders? Yep, been pretty quiet lately. Hopefully everyone is out USING thosenice cane rods instead of being cooped up planing them!!! :-) I for one unfortunately have been doing very little of either! :-(Pesky things like work keep interfering with the things I reallywould rather be doing. Fortunately though I have managed to sneak in a little fishing, andam making some progress on what I hope will turn out as a Leonard 38clone. Sure hope everyone else is managing a bit more fun... Mike - is it Friday yet - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com Wed Jul 17 10:50:27 1996 SMTP id KAA06066 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 199610:50:25 -0500 (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA249907206; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:26:46 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: three piece rods Is there a reason makers make rods over 8 foot as three piece rods as apposed to two piece? Doesn,t the action suffer from the two sets of ferruls interrupting the power fibers. Is this done because at one time all there was was 8 foot culms or is there a reason that nobody in any of the books has not mentioned? Is there any kind of formula for deciding where to put the ferrul if i was to make a 9' Thomas "Dirigo", out west here we have big rivers and most fly fishers use 9' and 10' graphite, but as you and i well know there's nothing like bamboo. Patrick from Rich_Margiotta@cpqm.mail.saic.com Wed Jul 17 11:14:26 1996 SMTP id LAA08201 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 199611:14:24 -0500 09:08:40 -0700 Subject: Varnish choices Subject: Time: 11:40 AMOFFICE MEMO Varnish choices Date: 7/17/96 This may have already been discussed, but being a newbie I'll raise theissueanyway. What are the feelings out there concerning the best varnish fordipping/brushing? I have used Minwax Spar Urethane in my dip tube withgoodresults. It does, however, have a plastic look to it. Any feelings onalternatives, including specific product names? --Rich from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Jul 17 11:30:09 1996 with SMTP id LAA09843 for ; Wed, 17 Jul1996 11:30:07 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:28:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Block plane blade angles Congrats Jerry-You have made the same discovery that a lot of the rest of us have -that is that the low (60 1/2) angle plane just doesn't work - That's whyyoudon't see any mention of it in my book or video.Another problem that you will also see is that the bamboo actuallysplits ahead of the blade - following the 'grain' and you will have littleactual control of the final dimensions. from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Wed Jul 17 11:53:26 1996 SMTP id LAA12325 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:53:25 -0500 CDT Subject: Re: Silk Fly Lines A few months back, there was much discussion about silk lines andtheir reconditioning. As I recall, detail instructions were postedon exactly how to not only condition the old lines but also howto re-varnish them. I'm sure a little time spent in the RODMAKERS archives will turn upthe messages. The archives can be accessed by pointing your WWW You should be able to use your web browser's FIND function to searcheach month for something like 'silk lines' or such so you won't haveto read each and every message. Mike - browsin' - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from FFer4trout@aol.com Wed Jul 17 15:21:58 1996 with SMTP id PAA27930 for ; Wed, 17 Jul1996 15:21:49 -0500 RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:20:31 -0400 Subject: I need Mont. Sunbeam Ferrules, please. I hope that there's a pack-rat or two still out there that's still buildingrods. Someone with some old Montague tips or ferrules squirreled away. I'm trying to restore some 9' Sunbeams for my dad and I'm in need of setsofferrules for the tip section to mid-section. I'm trying to get one or more(total 3) rods finished for his 84th birthday. Matched two male/one female sets, if possible. Males, females or amatchedpair of each. These aren't made of NS, just nickel-plated brass ferrules ofthe weird bottle-style that only Mont. used. Or whatever non-cracked pieces that you've got. Full length tips w/woguidesalso considered. Also, a set of mid section to butt ferrules. I know, I know, I'm asking for the impossible. I've got some more modern types ferrules, chromed-guides for spinningrods oreven large spools of NCP thread for trade. Or e-mail me your price or ifyouknow of someone with these ferrules. Thanks in advance, Don Burns from cbogart@ibm.net Wed Jul 17 17:27:50 1996 SMTP id RAA08087 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 199617:27:46 -0500 head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id SAA02629; Wed, 17 Jul1996 18:27:34 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Hot Glues for Ferrules Phil You described the "less drastic" measures that I tried.Some days the bamboo gods smile on you and some days they don't. Chris from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Jul 17 19:31:00 1996 with SMTP id TAA13876 for ; Wed, 17 Jul1996 19:30:59 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:30:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Block plane blade angles In a message dated 96-07-17 11:23:50 EDT, you write: Hi jerry: Does anyone have any experience with using a lower plane bladeangle than the 9 1/2 (21 degree angle)? I have been playing witha Stanley 60 1/2 (12 degree angle), which is virtually idential to the9 1/2 except for the blade angle, and I get lots of more (severe)splinteringand tearing around the nodes when planing than I do with the 9 1/2. Me, too. Must be the nature of bamboo. I was hoping that the lower angle could give easier thinner cutsacross the cane. Both blades are have a good 30 degree angle sharpened prior to use -Jerry B. This brings up a question. Has anyone tried any angles steeper than 30dforeither of the planes mentioned? Wonder if there might be some advantagesosuch. Regards,RTyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Jul 17 19:31:02 1996 with SMTP id TAA13881 for ; Wed, 17 Jul1996 19:31:01 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:31:41 -0400 Subject: Re: I need Mont. Sunbeam Ferrules, please. In a message dated 96-07-17 16:35:49 EDT, you write: I've got some more modern types ferrules, chromed-guides for spinningrodsoreven large spools of NCP thread for trade. Or e-mail me your price or ifyouknow of someone with these ferrules. Thanks in advance, Don Burns Hi Don:If you strike out and receive no offers, you might try Baily Wood @:Classic Sporting Enterprises, Roaring Brook RoadRD # 3. Box 3 Pho (802)525-3623Barton, VT 05822 Fax "" -3982 Baily has indicated in the past that he will supply that type ferrule, but itwill be in NS. Good Luck. Regards,RTyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Jul 17 19:31:09 1996 with SMTP id TAA13891 for ; Wed, 17 Jul1996 19:31:07 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:31:22 -0400 Subject: Re: three piece rods In a message dated 96-07-17 16:30:53 EDT, you write: Is there a reason makers make rods over 8 foot as three piece rods as apposed to two piece? Doesn,t the action suffer from the two sets of ferruls interrupting the power fibers. Is this done because at one time all there was was 8 foot culms or is there a reason that nobody in any of the books has not mentioned? Is there any kind of formula for deciding where to put the ferrul if i was to make a 9' Thomas "Dirigo", out west here we have big rivers and most fly fishers use 9' and 10' graphite, but as you and i well know there's nothing like bamboo. Patrick Hi Patrick: I think you are on the right track. As a matter of fact, Ireceived a taper from Mikael Marklund of Sweded who built it as a one-peice13-foot spey rod. As far as the ferrules affecting the action, it can be delt with. One way isto use Wayne Cattanach's computer program which will compensate fortheextra weight and displacement of the ferrules. I once had a conversation with Tom Dorsey of T & T concerning theirCaenismodle. It is a 7-1/2, 3-wt. He alluded that as a three piece it was moredesireable because it was toned down/softened a bit vs. as a two piece. Gofigger. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Jul 17 19:31:45 1996 with SMTP id TAA13944 for ; Wed, 17 Jul1996 19:31:43 -0500 Jul 1996 20:31:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Varnish choices In a message dated 96-07-17 16:31:37 EDT, you write: This may have already been discussed, but being a newbie I'll raise theissueanyway. What are the feelings out there concerning the best varnish fordipping/brushing? I have used Minwax Spar Urethane in my dip tube withgoodresults. It does, however, have a plastic look to it. Any feelings onalternatives, including specific product names? --Rich Hi Rich:You might give a look at The Planing Form, two issues back. I put anarticlein there about using Pratt and Lambert Var Mor, a urethane. I am havingreally wonderful results using it (dipping) and George Maurer's "secretsauce" to polish. Of course, the varnish you use may polish ok to get rid of the wet look. There has been a lot on finishes on the list, mostly a few months back. Iwould be glad to e-mail you some of the better listings - just let meknow.It is a variable subject. Seems to me that many, many finishes will work,or at least some one is happy with any particular one. Good Luck,Richard Tyree from FFer4trout@aol.com Wed Jul 17 23:17:21 1996 with SMTP id XAA21812 for ; Wed, 17 Jul1996 23:17:20 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:18:09 -0400 Subject: Re: I need Mont. Sunbeam Ferrules, please. Thanks for the feedback. I did try to contact someone in the N.E. some time back about ferrules. Ican't remember who, off-hand, but they were moving the company toFlorida(?). I think I got that person's name from Michael Sinclair's book onProduction Rod Restorations, but I'll need to check. I didn't want to put $45 ferrules (NS) on a $75 rod. Don from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Wed Jul 17 23:25:30 1996 SMTP id XAA22010 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 199623:25:27 -0500 0600 Subject: Re: Block plane blade angles Jerry, I'm sure that I didn't discover it but I found that the higher angled bladessure do make a lot less of a mess of the nodes. I'm presently using 39degrees and have tried up to 45 with some success. Note: that is the angleof the blade only. Have tried a 60 1/2 with more severe angles and found Ididn't like it. Seemed to take more to push it through the cane. Regards, Don At 10:09 16/07/96 -0500, you wrote: It's been quiet on the list lately, so... Does anyone have any experience with using a lower plane bladeangle than the 9 1/2 (21 degree angle)? I have been playing witha Stanley 60 1/2 (12 degree angle), which is virtually idential to the9 1/2 except for the blade angle, and I get lots of more (severe)splinteringand tearing around the nodes when planing than I do with the 9 1/2.I was hoping that the lower angle could give easier thinner cutsacross the cane. Both blades are have a good 30 degree angle sharpened prior to use -Jerry B. from jfoster@gte.net Wed Jul 17 23:58:15 1996 23:58:14 -0500 SMTP(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA036648226; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:03:46 - 0500 Subject: Re: Lonely weerkend Darryl A note from TX If you havn't been to Arcularius Ranch.. check it out for your next trip... n on 395 to the OWENS River rd. turnoff opposite the rest stop just before you get to the June Lake loop..go about 5 Mi. You can also check out Thousand Springs ( origin of the owens)on the way. Huge Browns, almost solitary fishing for 5 mi. Good fishing Jerry from neuneman@fh-ge.de Thu Jul 18 01:28:20 1996 01:28:18 -0500 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA26009; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:36:05 +0200 Organization: Fachhochschule Gelsenkirchen (Germany) Subject: Re: Block plane blade angles Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: This brings up a question. Has anyone tried any angles steeper than 30dforeither of the planes mentioned? Wonder if there might be someadvantage sosuch. Regards,RTyree Richard, I tried steeper angles some time ago, but was unable to find anyadvantages. The the cutting edges should stay sharper for a longer time, but I needed morepower to plane. Frank from neuneman@fh-ge.de Thu Jul 18 01:48:47 1996 01:48:44 -0500 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA26053; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:56:26 +0200 Organization: Fachhochschule Gelsenkirchen (Germany) Subject: Re: Lonely weerkend Michael Biondo wrote: Yep, been pretty quiet lately. Hopefully everyone is out USING thosenice cane rods instead of being cooped up planing them!!! :-) I for one unfortunately have been doing very little of either! :-(Pesky things like work keep interfering with the things I reallywould rather be doing. Fortunately though I have managed to sneak in a little fishing, andam making some progress on what I hope will turn out as a Leonard 38clone. Sure hope everyone else is managing a bit more fun... Mike - is it Friday yet - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Mike, The same thing happened and still happens to me :-(. Lots of work, not bamboo related and little fishing during weekend. When I finally make it to the river, the fish are not very interested. Frank from neuneman@fh-ge.de Thu Jul 18 02:15:49 1996 02:15:47 -0500 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA26113; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:23:34 +0200 Organization: Fachhochschule Gelsenkirchen (Germany) Subject: Re: three piece rods Patrick Coffey wrote: Is there a reason makers make rods over 8 foot as three piece rods asapposed to two piece? Doesn,t the action suffer from the two sets offerruls interrupting the power fibers. Is this done because at one timeall there was was 8 foot culms or is there a reason that nobody in any ofthe books has not mentioned? Is there any kind of formula for decidingwhere to put the ferrul if i was to make a 9' Thomas "Dirigo", out westhere we have big rivers and most fly fishers use 9' and 10' graphite, butas you and i well know there's nothing like bamboo. Patrick Patrick, I think the main reason for making 3-piece rods is to make it easier to transport. Ideally a rod should be one piece, but imagine all those rodsthat would get killed in slammed (car) doors etc. Things get complicated whenyou don't have a large station wagon with a 10 foot rod tube on top :-). Two ferrules are heavier than one ferrule (of course), so they add massand according to Newton's law they contribute to slow down the action, whichin some cases may be desirable. I built a few 3-piece rods and they turned out tobe nice fishing and casting tools. Frank from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Thu Jul 18 08:19:52 1996 IAA07142 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:19:50 -0500 Subject: Plane Angles Jerry B. I bought a 60 1/2 Block plane put in a new Hoch Blade use 1000/6000waterstone. Flatten the back and polished to a 30d angle and I'm having trouble with the nodes. The cane is smooth but the nodes have a roughedgetoward the pith. I'm going to shelf the 60 1/2 in favor of an old 9 1/2 I found in a junk store. I belive the blace is old enough not to have any chromium (sp) in it because it had a lot of surface rust on it and itsharpenfairly hard. I may be buying a new Hoch blace. I'm getting the feelingwhenthe old timers (those who have made more than 1 rod) say something thatis generally the way it is. Wayne uses a 9 1/2 by durn use a 9 1/2. I hate itwhen experience always out weigh what I think should be right. Theoldtimersalways know> Bob Berry from rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com Thu Jul 18 08:45:19 1996 SMTP id IAA08565 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 199608:45:16 -0500 (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA156747385; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 06:43:05 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: block plane blade angl The only time a low angle block plane is advantageous is when planing end grain where you want to shear the material not rip it apart as a regularblock plane would do. To achieve less tear out you want to put a steepermicro- bevel on the plane blade and close the throat up to almost nothing.The chip brker is what stops the grain from diving deep. I spent 8 years hand planing curly maple and curly myrtle and tried every conceivable wasfinely tuned (the blade makes good contact with all surfaces),the blade is extremely sharp with a micro bevel and the throat closed almost to nothing. The opening of the the throat to a large degree determines how thick a shaving the plane will remove. The instruments we made (violins,basses and cellos) were made of curley maple and every 1/4" is end grain going one way and then end grain going the other way. We found the most important thing was the throat opening and sharpnes of the blade, we used hard white and hard black arkansas stones with fantastic success. Patrick from HADN@chevron.com Thu Jul 18 09:45:44 1996 SMTP id JAA12238 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 199609:45:41 -0500 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:44:29 -0700 Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:44:29 -0700 Subject: RE: Lonely weerkend 4.0.838.14Encoding: 24 TEXT Darryl A note from TX If you havn't been to Arcularius Ranch.. check it out for your next trip... n on 395 to the OWENS River rd. turnoff opposite the rest stop just before you get to the June Lake loop..go about 5 Mi. You can also check out Thousand Springs ( origin of the owens)on the way. Huge Browns, almost solitary fishing for 5 mi. Good fishing Jerry Yes, I've been there, but you have to stay at the ranch to beable to fish on the property. With a total of six people (myfamily and my parents), it would be a bit pricey. By the waythe owners are trying to sell the ranch. Do you have a spare7 million? Darryl Hayashida from KilchsGray@aol.com Thu Jul 18 10:57:12 1996 ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:57:10 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:57:22 -0400 Subject: Re: three piece rods In a message dated 96-07-17 20:42:56 EDT, you write: Hi Patrick: I think you are on the right track. As a matter of fact, Ireceived a taper from Mikael Marklund of Sweded who built it as a one-peice13-foot spey rod. Dear Richard, If it is neither inconvenient nor a state secret, could you pleasepost/email Mikael Marklund's taper for his 13' spey? A great deal of inkhasbeen spilled on the issue of what constitutes a 'true' spey rod; I am surethat the answer lies in the stress curve, i.e., are spey rods parabolic,progressive, or something in between? I hope to convince DarrylHayashida orone of the other computer experts to help me with this burning, crucial,world-shaking question... Thanks for any help. Roger Wiggin from khube@benmeadows.com Thu Jul 18 14:12:36 1996 OAA29419 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:12:33-0500 PAA16797 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 15:11:21 (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA15926 for; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 15:11:18 - 0400 Subject: Ferrules Two questions today.................. 1. When is it appropriate to use the short truncated ferrules versusregularlength ? 2. Did someone recently say they had been able to put spliced splines(Titebond II) in an oven for heat treating without a failure ? Seems likesuch a point came up, but couldn't find it in the archives. Karl HubeMarietta, Georgia from jonrc@atlantic.net Thu Jul 18 14:33:36 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00318 for; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:33:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Ferrules Karl Hube wrote: Two questions today.................. 1. When is it appropriate to use the short truncated ferrules versusregularlength ? Karl, I use the truncated ferrules for my three piece rods. As far a I know,that is what they are designed for. I did notice that on Chris's Big Dog Rod, he used onetruncated and one regular ferrule. -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and time again.Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together, the fly is taken and thefamiliar pulsating tension is felt running the length of the cane rod allowing the angler justa glimpse of the mystery below the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from 76250.1771@CompuServe.COM Thu Jul 18 14:36:28 1996 OAA00430 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 14:36:27-0500 Subject: Silk Fly Lines Ralph-George Parker Holden's ,1931, "Angling Recollections And Practices"has achapter on "Home Dressing of Fly Lines". He describes how to dress a newlineand how to renovate used lines. If you don't have a copy at home or at theFFFcenter e-mail me and I'll xerox and mail you a copy of the chapter.Dennis Higham from cbogart@ibm.net Thu Jul 18 18:48:53 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA10574 for; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 18:48:50 -0500 TAA26965; Thu, 18 Jul 1996 19:48:39 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Ferrules Karl Normally you can heat treat the cane prior to splicing. Aftersplicing no need for heat - - unless your glue needs a heat cure (Nyatex).Titebond or Titebond-II can suffer from heat - some days you can win andothers - oh hell!! I reccomend using heat very spareingly around theseglues. Truncated ferrules. for most 3 + piece rods they are appropriatesince less mass. On larger rods (9'+) then it up to choice since each section is as long as say one section of a 6-7' two piece. Chris from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Fri Jul 19 07:58:18 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA29790 for; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:58:13 -0500 Subject: Hexrod Explaination To Wayne Cattanach from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Fri Jul 19 08:24:51 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA00826 for; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:24:49 -0500 Subject: Hexrod Explaination To Wayne Cattanach or others who understand Hexrod Is there a written explaination anywhere that tell what the prints out ofHexrod mean? I understand what "DIMEN" is but the rest I don'tunderestnd.In graphing the stress curve graph where does the figure "thousand inchounces"come from? I can get the X axis of inches ok. Is there a new Hexrod beingdeveloped that is compatable with Exel 5.0. If so when and where will itbe available? To Patrick Coffey;Did you receive the fax on the fro? I was reluctant to send it outsinceI havn't finished my own fro as a matter of fact a welder friend is cuttingit pieceof an Oak log. The idea has got to be the same and that is to start the cutandthen wedge the wood (bamboo) by twisting (pulling the handle out ofparallelwith the stock) the handle. It would seem that when you hit a node acoupleof taps would be in order to get through. If this is not correct let meknowor someone let me know. I don't wnat to be burning Bamboo in thefireplace thiswinter. O yea Wayne is a bending moment a time when you are picking up a dime intheparking lot? Bob Berry -almost a flatland Flyfisher from arqmmao@dow.on.doe.ca Fri Jul 19 09:14:50 1996 JAA02900 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:14:49 -0500 (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA235705613; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 10:13:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Ferrules Hi Karl . I used a truncated ferrule on my first rod 7' 4 wt 2 pc. Wayne C. taper.A bunch of people have cast it and everyone realy liked it. I think thetruncated ferrules can be used on any 2 piece rod, and on any butt to midon 3 piece rods. They may be a bit too short in the smaller sizes (ie themid to tip in a 3 piece.) Just my 0.02.Mauro On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Karl Hube wrote: Two questions today.................. 1. When is it appropriate to use the short truncated ferrules versusregularlength ? 2. Did someone recently say they had been able to put spliced splines(Titebond II) in an oven for heat treating without a failure ? Seems likesuch a point came up, but couldn't find it in the archives. Karl HubeMarietta, Georgia from TKirkpat@clw.unisysgsg.com Fri Jul 19 09:19:51 1996 with SMTP id JAA03139 for ; Fri, 19 Jul1996 09:19:49 -0500 EDT Subject: Re: Ferrules Encoding: 16 TEXT To Jonathan Clarke=Twin Pines Rod Co.=http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc I took a look at your home page. Looks good. The photos are great. I like the way you've given graphic examples of your work. It loads fairly quickly too. For me that's a real plus. You might think about the background. To me it takes away from the text. (It could be the way my computer is reading the colors?? For me any background makes the text hard to read.) Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor Flu from WayneCatt@aol.com Fri Jul 19 09:59:18 1996 ; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:59:16 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 10:59:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Hexrod Explaination Bob (and others with the same question)Over the years I have given several explainations of Mr. Garrisons Roddesign idea - with so - so results. There needs to be a simple explainationcreated. And believe it or not your picking up a dime in a parking lot isn'ta bad example. Follow along:In normal use the principles Mr. Garrison used are for calculating the'safety' of members (individual components) of structures (houses -bridgesand such). Using formulas and standardized test charts of variousmaterials aperson can calculate - how much snow load a roof can support - or howmuchweight a bridge can support - By investigating the individual members.Normal the design is keyed to limiting or minimizing the deflection ofthe members - the floor of a house would be a good example - the buildingcodes call for limiting the deflection of a floor joist to 1/360 of the totalspan - using the f(b) element of a certain type of wood -a person cancalculate the size joist needed to support a certain live (people - snow)load and dead (wood - steel) load.Well altering this system a bit Mr. Garrison developed his method usingthe same math but instead of using fixed f(b) factors he altered thesenumbers to alter the flex of the fly rod. It works backwards of what youmignt think - if the f(b) value is low the stiffer and the Higher the f(b)value the more flexible. Think of it this way for a dime you might slowlystoop to pick it up but for a 'C' note you are going to have fastermovement.To achieve the dimensions the 'moments of interia' are calculated andthe applying these against the f(b) you reach dimensions that account fortheweight of the different elements of the fly rod(fly line cast- bambooweight- ferrules) By raising and lowering the f(b) values you will either slow themovement of energy flowing through that point or increase the flow ofenergyat that point.Now looking at a f(b) curve you will see that at the tip(rod wise) thevalues are high - so the rod is more flexable. And as you progress to thebutt(rod wise) the values are lower - so that the action of the rod stiffenstowards the butt. The f(b) only shows the character of a rod - you candevelope a #2 weight rod and a #6 weight using the same f(b) curveyieldingrods that will share the same character but with dimensions appropiate totherod size(weight).If this doesn't help please let me know - I am determined to come upwith an explanation of the whole matter sooner or later. Perhpas morestreamside study is required - That's it!! - I need to go fishing thisweekend and make personal observations to further the cause. Great Idea !! Off to Grayrock Wayne from TKirkpat@clw.unisysgsg.com Fri Jul 19 10:38:17 1996 with SMTP id KAA06560 for ; Fri, 19 Jul1996 10:38:15 -0500 EDT Subject: Wayne - std measurement yet? Encoding: 15 TEXT Before I went on vacation, some question was raised about how one should give the Actual measurement on a hex rod taper. i.e.; station sizes (5in. .07 -- 10in. .11 etc,ect.) The question was ask how the list felt about coming up with a standard, My only suggestion was if we're giving all three measurement we specify clock wise or counter clock wise, and viewed from the tip or the butt. Was any conclusion reached or did everyone go fishing? Terry Kirkpatrick Safety Harbor, Flu from jfoster@gte.net Fri Jul 19 19:40:04 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA26579 for; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 19:40:03 -0500 SMTP(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA273763132; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 19:38:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Wayne - std measurement yet? Terry Speaking for what I could perceive.. I think most of the guy's with mic's agreed that starting with the guide flats and going some direction was benificial ? absolutly perhaps.. I think 5in increments is a default because of the tapering forms.. I wish however we could get everyone to measure on even in. increments (except the tip,butt?) because the programs that expand the data to get stresses work better that way no hope Jerry from jfoster@gte.net Fri Jul 19 20:51:46 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA27738 for; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:51:45 -0500 SMTP(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA043367434; Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:50:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Hexrod Explaination Bob,all I mounted an excel 5 hexrod version on the archive under stuff. It's in raw format so just clicking on it should download it. I need someone with a DOS/WIN machine to download and test it from the arc. It's not as complete as I would like yet (Chris) but all the functions seem to be pretty bug free. I also placed a few tapers on line, namely, Chris,AJ, and Payne. Would someone give me some feedback before I go on. Thanx Jerry from jonrc@atlantic.net Sat Jul 20 15:04:55 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA15078 for; Sat, 20 Jul 1996 15:04:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Ferrules Thanks for the comments on my page. I think I will be changing the background. I wont be at the Aug meeting, I'll be in Colorado, so see ya' in September.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and time again. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running the length of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mystery below the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from mstevens@prolog.net Sat Jul 20 21:02:29 1996 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA23016 for ;Sat, 20 Jul 1996 21:02:24 - 0500 ns1.ptd.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00269 for Subject: Heddon #17 Black Beauty My first post to the group. Looking for opinion. I picked up a Heddon #17 8 1/2 Black Beauty today at a local flea market.It's in almost new condition except for the cork grip which has a coat ofvarnish over it. My question is whether this is something Heddon did? Ihave never looked at a Heddon before. I doubt that it is but want to besure. Suppose some varnish remover carefully applied would do the job ofremoving it. Then some light sanding? I definately had a good day. I may have an oportunity to make a rod this winter using someone else'sequipment and expertise. Looking forward to that. Mike Stevens The Stevens Familymstevens@prolog.net from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Sun Jul 21 08:12:13 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA27970 for; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:12:11 -0500 Subject: brushing varnish I recently finished varnishing my first rod with a brush and have one ortwo things to report to any neophyter-than-I: 1). It can be done with very good results, though I'm quite sure dippingiseasier and produces a generally better finish. 2). Thinner is better when using a brush--it may take a bit longer todryand that means more exposure to dust, but brush marks aren't nearly asmuch aproblem as with thick varnish: aren's really a problem at all. I wonder, though, why it wouldn't be possible to varnish the rod withoutthe guides, then wrap, then varnish the wraps. I suspect that this mightbe aslightly better way to varnish with a brush, though when dipping therewouldbe no reason not to dip the completed rod. Any thoughts on this? On the whole I would have to say that dipping is more of a hassle to setup, but less of a hassle to varnish; the reverse is true of the brush.Probably depends on how many rods you propose to make. --Mark Freedfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu from wishbone@headwaters.com Sun Jul 21 10:13:53 1996 ; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 10:13:50 -0500 ns1.bellglobal.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA21491 for; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 10:12:36 -0400 (5.65/1.1.8.2/12Aug95-0226PM) Comments: Authenticated sender is Subject: Re: brushing varnish Priority: normal I have found a great product for finishing and refinishing. It is called "PermaGloss" and is made by U40. It is a urethane type of finish, but is very thin, brushes easily, and if not put on thickly has virtually no bubble problems. You will be required to use several coats though. Hope this may help anyone still looking for a suitable finish. May be worth a try! Regards,Ian ScottWishbone Custom Rods wishbone@headwaters.comhttp://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone ********************************************************************************************* "The butterfly counts not months but moments,and has time enough." Rabindranath TagoreFireflies, 1928 from WayneCatt@aol.com Sun Jul 21 21:06:25 1996 ; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 21:06:22 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 22:04:25 -0400 Subject: Oops I just received the current issue of The Planing Form and was readingofthe gatherings planned for next year - apparently Ron missed theRodmakers atGrayrock '97' & Trout Bum BBQ III. Yes, it will be the third year for the gettogether at Grayling June 20 - 21,1997. Well, that's the 'official' dates - lasted Although there was no published announcement - thursday night therewas(is again next year) a picnic & fish at Whispering Pines (Frank Loves) placewith riverboat runs going to the 'Horse Camp' or Long's or where ever.Another event that didn't get any press was a Pizza & BYOB friday nightat the clubhouse. It was supposed to be a social for hands on things and flytying demo. This year Larry Blan demonstrated how he does his mice. LuisMarden promises a report on there use in Labador this fall.Now that Ron has chose to put his efforts into the get together inCanada - it, I guess, is up to us (those wanting to attend) to plan and carryoff Grayrock '97'. Any Idea or suggestions ?????? Wayne from TKirkpat@clw.unisysgsg.com Mon Jul 22 09:06:13 1996 with SMTP id JAA19310 for ; Mon, 22 Jul1996 09:06:09 -0500 EDT Subject: Re: Ferrules Encoding: 31 TEXT Jonathan,=Thanks for the comments on my page. I think I will be changing the=background. I wont be at the Aug meeting, I'll be in Colorado, so see ya'=in September. My comments on your being able to get to Colorado and Me being stuck inhot muggy Florida will go unpublished! (I hope you enjoy yourself. I'm suer there's no way you couldn't) Maybe by the time you get back I'll have made some progress on myprojects. I was going to try to get into them this weekend, but a friend ran intosome problems (unrelated to bamboo or even fish), so I spent the weekendhelping him. =Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and time=again. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the=fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running the=length of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mystery=below the surface of the water=Jonathan Clarke=Twin Pines Rod Co.=http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc When I was a sailor, I looked only at the top of the water, The wind and waves. Now that I fish I try to look at the world below. Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fla. TKirkpat@CLW.UNISYSGSG.COM from rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com Mon Jul 22 10:30:01 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26053 for; Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:29:58 -0500 (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA232069213; Mon, 22 Jul 1996 08:26:53 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: tooling Does anybody know where you can get a anvil for a mic with a 60 degree notch in it, also a base for dial indicator and does anybody make tempering ovens for bamboo? Has anybody tried getting a 60 degree notch milled in a stainless steel dial caliper on the sliding jaw? I am retooling for some flyrods and have decided to upgrade what i have been using. If you use a heat gun on the pith side of the culm is it still necessary to heat treat in a oven or does that temper and dry it out enough, if so what is the procedure and how long do you heat it? Patrick from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Mon Jul 22 10:38:31 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26796 for; Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:38:27 -0500 0600 Subject: Truncated Ferrules To All, Several days ago, the truncated ferrule thing came up and I was too busyfishing to get to it. But here goes.Do Not Use Them Unless You Absolutely Have Too!!! Ferrules are used to join cane together and have two opposing problems:- They have to be flexable or short ( Well, they can't be flexable so theyshould be short?)- They have to be serviceable and have excellent wear characteristics If ferrules are to give good service, they must be made of materials thatsuits the purpose, however all materials wear in use. Ferrules included. Ifyou want your ferrules to last a long time, have the male/female ends alongas possible without compromizing the action of the cane. The only time I have had to replace ferrules to date was when usingtruncated ferrules. The ferrules allowed the rod sections to twist onefromanother. I and another person both had this happen. I replaced his set andjust wax the stuffing out of mine. So if you want long service from ferrules, please keep to the standardlengths no matter what the shorties look like. Regards, Don from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Mon Jul 22 10:38:46 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26801 for; Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:38:37 -0500 0600 Subject: Silk Lines To All, My thanx to those that answered my questions about silk lines. Prehaps Icanfind a used one to try - - a new one's cost is best saved for caneworkingtools. Regards, Don from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Mon Jul 22 11:22:30 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA01599 for; Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:22:27 -0500 Subject: hEXROD To Jerry Foster Could you give me the exact location of Hexrod on the net, I wouldlike to download it and give it a try. I thought it was on Dennis Conners'F.A.Q. but I couldn't find it. Thank for the help. RegardsBob Berry from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Mon Jul 22 15:18:54 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA16333 for; Mon, 22 Jul 1996 15:17:18 -0500 Subject: To Patrick Coffey Patrick Iwas looking in the Starrett Catalog for the anvil for a mic, they don't show any anvil as such but they show a V-Anvil Micormeter No. 486Series. I would believe the vee is 45d rather than 60d but you might checkwith a Sterrettdealer. The other problem is that it will only mic. down to .078" whichcan be marginal for a light tip. What type of base are you looking for, for a dial indicator? If it is abase for checking your groove depth on a form look at Dennis Conners'F.A.Q. ita GIF file. I made mine out of Maple and taped it for a set screw and drillitto fit my dial indicator. It simple and it works and most of all it's cheap. Hope that gives you some where to start Bob from cbogart@ibm.net Mon Jul 22 17:45:19 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA25941 for; Mon, 22 Jul 1996 17:45:15 -0500 1996 18:45:49 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: tooling Patrick a small device that clamps on to one jaw of the caliper - better together. Chris from Fallcreek9@aol.com Mon Jul 22 21:16:40 1996 ; Mon, 22 Jul 1996 21:16:38 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:17:40 -0400 Subject: Re: brushing varnish In a message dated 96-07-21 09:13:26 EDT, you write: I wonder, though, why it wouldn't be possible to varnish the rod withoutthe guides, then wrap, then varnish the wraps. I suspect that this mightbeaslightly better way to varnish with a brush, though when dipping therewouldbe no reason not to dip the completed rod. Any thoughts on this? Hi Mark:When I brush varnished, it was done before guides/wraps were put on. Afterputting in a dip tube, have stayed with the procedure - can't get the typevarnish job I want on the wraps by dipping it on. I like a high-build up ofvarnish without any bleed onto the bamboo. Varnishing beforeguides/wrapssure takes the complication out of sanding/polishing the varnish, if you goin for that. Best Regards,RTyree from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Tue Jul 23 07:18:52 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA02491 for; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:18:50 -0500 Subject: Grayling '97 Now that Ron has chose to put his efforts into the get together inCanada - it, I guess, is up to us (those wanting to attend) to plan andcarryoff Grayrock '97'. Any Idea or suggestions ?????? Wayne Wayne,I, for one, think the opportunity to cast a variety of rods (tapers) and tocompare their stress curves would be a rare chance for new builders tofindwhat they do and don't like, and to learn how to interpret stress curves. Itis not often one gets access to many cane rods like that.I understand this has been a feature in the past, and I would be willingtohelp organize (or help help organize) that part of the gathering. It wouldtake some preparation in order that participants had their rods graphed. Orperhaps this is something that could be done "on site". That way, peoplenewto the program could get some aid in learning how to use it. I'd be willingtoprovide my laptop. --Mark Freed (freedmar@pilot.msu.edu) from jonrc@atlantic.net Tue Jul 23 07:39:55 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA03310 for; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:39:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Grayling '97 Wayne,I, for one, think the opportunity to cast a variety of rods (tapers) andtocompare their stress curves would be a rare chance for new builders tofindwhat they do and don't like, and to learn how to interpret stress curves. Itis not often one gets access to many cane rods like that.I understand this has been a feature in the past, and I would be willingtohelp organize (or help help organize) that part of the gathering. It wouldtake some preparation in order that participants had their rods graphed. Orperhaps this is something that could be done "on site". That way, peoplenewto the program could get some aid in learning how to use it. I'd bewilling toprovide my laptop. --Mark Freed (freedmar@pilot.msu.edu) Mark, What a great idea. Having a number of rods with a stress graph with themwould be helpfull to all rodmakers. Jonathan Clarke -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Tue Jul 23 10:27:55 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA13584 for; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:27:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Oops Wayne seez... I just received the current issue of The Planing Form and was readingofthe gatherings planned for next year - apparently Ron missed theRodmakers atGrayrock '97' & Trout Bum BBQ III. Yes, it will be the third year for thegettogether at Grayling June 20 - 21,1997. Mark your calendars guys, you won't want to miss this one! Since wewill be doing all the planning (and, just maybe even some PLANING!!! :-) ourselves it should prove to be a weekend to remember!!! Also, we should be able to include a bit more while keeping the registration feethe same. Next year the registration for the RODMAKERS gathering and theTrout Bum BBQ will be seperate. The FlyShop & Spike's will handle theregistration for the Trout Bum BBQ, and we will handle our ownregistration for the Gathering. Although there was no published announcement - thursday night therewas(is again next year) a picnic & fish at Whispering Pines (Frank Loves)placewith riverboat runs going to the 'Horse Camp' or Long's or where ever.Another event that didn't get any press was a Pizza & BYOB fridaynightat the clubhouse. It was supposed to be a social for hands on things andflytying demo. This year Larry Blan demonstrated how he does his mice. LuisMarden promises a report on there use in Labador this fall. As I said, while keeping the registration fee the same, we should be ableto include a bit more. Now don't hold me to this yet, but we've runsome preliminary numbers, and it looks like we should be able to coverthe picnic dinner Thursday evening, the pizza dinner Friday evening, andjust maybe have enough left over for a commemorative T-Shirt, orsomething. Also, again next year as Wayne mentioned above, there will be severalriverboats available for floats. Something I'm not sure you all maybe aware of, but it was though Wayne's efforts and generousity, andthe generousity of several of Wayne's friends (who guide professionallyon the river) that these guided floats are made possible. Thanks Wayne!!! Now that Ron has chose to put his efforts into the get together inCanada - it, I guess, is up to us (those wanting to attend) to plan andcarryoff Grayrock '97'. Any Idea or suggestions ?????? We really would like to get as much input as possible in the planningof next year's gathering. So keep those ideas/suggestions coming. It's OUR weekend, let's all make it something to remember... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from Rich_Margiotta@cpqm.mail.saic.com Tue Jul 23 13:32:06 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA19115 for; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:31:54 -0500 11:26:45 -0700 Subject: Glue for delamination repai Subject: Time: 2:04 PMOFFICE MEMO Glue for delamination repair Date: 7/23/96 Any thoughts on what the best glue for repairing minor delaminations oncanerods? I've used Elmer's white glue in the past but I wonder about itslongevity, water resistance, and heat resistance (particularly during heatstraightening). Would Titebond or Titebond II be better? Thanks. --Rich from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Tue Jul 23 14:01:30 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21260 for; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:01:28 -0500 Subject: Newsletter Hey everyone, I've got something I'd like to run by ya'all... A while back, I had an idea I presented to _The Planing Form_ forsomething I thought would be a benefit to all the rodmakers. Isuggested that there should be some way that we could share someof the information that came across our respective forums. I'msure there are many rodmakers out there without access to the internet,as well as some on this list that do not receive _The Planing Form_.I just thought it would be a way for all rodmakers to benefit. While in Grayling for this past RODMAKERS Gathering, I spoke withseveral rodmakers who were very interested in our list, but justnot that interested in computers/email/internet. Since I got noresponse back from _The Planing Form_ I started thinking about havingour own Newletter as a way to bring together us and the 'unconnected'rodmakers out there. My thought was simply to take an abridged version of some of the majorthreads that are posted each month, put them along with anything thatwas snail-mailed in, into a newsletter and mail it out. Anything thatwas mailed into the newsletter by 'unconnected' folks, I would post tothe RODMAKERS list for our information/comment. Then, any replies tothat stuff would make it back out in the newsletter the following month. Subscription rates could be quite low with any profits going into something that would profit the list. Perhaps putting the profits intothe Gathering in Grayling next year. I present this idea to the list mainly because a proposed newsletterwould be all of ours, with our words making up the bulk of the content.I am really interested to hear your thoughts on this. Kick it aroundwith any rodmakers you might know that are not connect - see what theirfeeling are. Would they be interested in sharing in something likethis? Also any ideas you may on making this happen would be greatlyappreciated. Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Wed Jul 24 09:36:11 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02469 for; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:36:10 -0500test-header: [michael@wupsych.wustl.edu] CDT Subject: Re: Newsletter The following is a bounced note to the list from Dick Schiller. So I thought I'd forward it on to everyone... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: Richard Schiller Subject: Re: Newsletter A while back, I had an idea I presented to _The Planing Form_ forsomething I thought would be a benefit to all the rodmakers. Isuggested that there should be some way that we could share someof the information that came across our respective forums. I'msure there are many rodmakers out there without access to the internet,as well as some on this list that do not receive _The Planing Form_. I present this idea to the list mainly because a proposed newsletterwould be all of ours, with our words making up the bulk of the content.I am really interested to hear your thoughts on this. Kick it aroundwith any rodmakers you might know that are not connect - see whattheirfeeling are. Would they be interested in sharing in something likethis? Also any ideas you may on making this happen would be greatlyappreciated. Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy Mike: It is laudable that you are concerned about the folks who are neither on Internet nor receive the "Planing Forum". It is also great that you would volunteer for the chore that you suggested. That said, I will voice my negative opinion on you suggestion. 1. I can see where a rodbuilder might not be interested in computers and the Internet. While this person is missing a great deal of info on the hobby, he may not have the money, time or inclination to become involved in yet another "hobby". (I leave out those that have involvement at work 2. While the "Planing Form" is not a panacea, it does solve the problem that is available. It could be made much better with more participation and perhaps the "abridged version of major threads" could be placed in this medium. Since the "Form" appears to be the private province of Ron perhaps some "arrangements" could be made. In my view, the numberof people interested in Bamboo who subscribe to such newsletters is too small to fragment the numbers by having "two" newsletters. 3.The embryonic, but excellent, archival effort by Jerry Foster is the best way to post threads that are of great value. This effort is far superior to a newsletter and can be the basis of a real information retrieval set-up. It is already headed in that direction. Those folks that do not have access to the internet, and who do not wish to join, can still use snailmail to one of us who is on the net and who could download the information that the non-net persons wanted. 4. There may be politics involved (there always is) in who does what, but politics aside, I think that one "Newsletter", one listserv, and one archive for Bamboo is all that is necessary, with the "QUALITY" of each being paramount. 5. Ultimately electronic communications will be the prevailing method of communicating things like our hobbies and we should endevour to become involved as soon as is practical. I do not feel obligated to those who desire the benefit of a group, but will not yield to join the group by either subscribing to the existing written or electronic material or attending meetings. I will be glad to help them, but at my convenience!I do not feel that it is conveninent to develop a second newsletter! Mike, I am always sorry when I make statements like the ones I have made above, but it comes from the heart! (Some will say I have no heart, but my doctor is sure getting rich checking it!) Dick SchillerCrestwood KY from TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org Wed Jul 24 09:56:45 1996 JAA03882 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:56:43-0500test-header: [TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org] mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA19466 for; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:55:31 -0400 Wed, 24 Jul 96 10:31:00 EST5EDT EST5EDT Wed, 24 Jul 96 10:30:36 EST5EDT Subject: Re: NewsletterPriority: normal Dick said:Mike: It is laudable that you are concerned about the folks who are neither on Internet nor receive the "Planing Forum". It is also great that you would volunteer for the chore that you suggested. Very well said, Dick. I agree wholeheartedly. Mike, I feel your time is better spent on planing, not in front of a computer writing a newsletter. If rodbuilders are really interested in the list or The Planing Form they will find access. from what I have learned from all of the rodbuilders I have met (electronically or personally), one predominate trait has been obvious, we are extremely resourceful. from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Jul 24 11:06:24 1996 ; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 11:06:20 -0500 test-header: [TSmithwick@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:07:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Newsletter Mike Biondo wrote: from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Jul 24 11:36:50 1996 ; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 11:36:48 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:38:22 -0400 Subject: Newsletter - FYI Which ever way THE GROUP decides about a newsletter - I can tell youthat there are many that don't have a company supplied computer and netaccess that would enjoy and participate in something.The Planing Form started as MY outreach to other bamboo rod makersandrepresented many dollars of long distance phone calls to add linkage to thegroup. Historically it wasn't the first and even today it isn't the ONLY (theother is by invitation) one.An Alternate might be to form a directory of folks that wouldn't mindphone calls and letters asking for information on how-to's - where to find-and such. The directory could be passed out by whoever - perhaps thosethatdisplay at the different FF shows. There Is A NeedWayne from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Wed Jul 24 11:39:34 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAB01990 for; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 11:39:33 -0500test-header: [michael@wupsych.wustl.edu] CDT Subject: Re: Newsletter Tom, as well as others have voiced a similar concern... Mike, Your Idea is a good one, but I would rather see this done through"ThePlaning Form" , rather than in competition with it. Frankly, I think thatallof us who are amateurs owe Ron a debt of gratitude for publishing theusefulinformation that he does. That was my original thought. When I sent in my subscription to_The Planing Form_ I also included a letter to Ron suggesting thatwe share the information that came across the respective forums.I never received a reply to the letter, nor was anything mentionedin Grayling. I assumed Ron is not interested. Perhaps Ron could be sent a copy of the Archives eachmonth, I'm sure there would be much there that would be of interest. No criticism intended here, just my own opinion. The archives are freely accessible by anyone with internet access, andI would be happy to forward them to Ron. However, it does not seem Ronis interested in a reciprocal arrangement. I would like to thank everyone who has voiced comments on this so far.This is OUR list, and folks taking the time to voice their comments iswhat will keep it alive and in continued growth. Thanks guys... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org Wed Jul 24 13:19:29 1996 NAA06147 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 13:19:27-0500test-header: [TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org] mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA32695 for; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 14:18:44 -0400 Wed, 24 Jul 96 13:54:12 EST5EDT EST5EDT Wed, 24 Jul 96 13:53:47 EST5EDT Subject: Re: Newsletter - FYIPriority: normal Hello all, Wayne wrote:An Alternate might be to form a directory of folks that wouldn't mindphone calls and letters asking for information on how-to's - where tofind -and such. The directory could be passed out by whoever - perhaps thosethatdisplay at the different FF shows. This is a great idea. What I see here is move toward a Guild or was discussed before but don't know where it ended and I'm too lazy to look it up in the archives. Professional Associations generally foster quality, education and communication amoung its members andbeing a member of one 'usually' denotes one's dedication to his/her craft. Granted this only works in an ideal world, you only get out what you put in. I think if effort is to be expended to help people without access to thislist,maybe an Association is in order. On the other hand, with an association comes work. Paperwork, communication to the unplugged members, dues, meetings, etc... The most handy way I see of handling this is to team up with Ron. I think if he's approached with a well thought out plan, maybe he'll bite. We can handle membership duties, and he can continue with the Planing Form. With membership comes subsciption to it, and maybe drum up some more business for him. I know right now my time is much better spent building rods instead of talking and reading about building rods. When I reach my level ofincompetence, and comfortable with the construction process and my rods are good, then I will be ready to put forth the effort to improve, enhance this craft. Meanwhile, I thank my lucky stars for this list, for without I would not be building cane rods. Enough mental diherrea for now, back to work, because if I get fired, I lose RODMAKERS Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Jul 24 16:08:07 1996 ; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 16:08:04 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 17:07:18 -0400 Subject: The Politics is Me Without going into much detail - I am quite confident that the nonacceptance of the 'lists' existance by The Planing Form is due to me beinghere. For three years Ron & I did The Planing Form together - at that pointIleft. Since then I (and others) have seen a definate cooling. Enough SaidWayne from cbogart@ibm.net Wed Jul 24 18:06:25 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA22235 for; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:06:20 -0500test-header: [cbogart@ibm.net] head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA18509; Wed, 24 Jul1996 19:05:32 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: On-Line Rodmakers Mag After reading Wayne's last and to follow up what I wrote previously,I think that we should give thought to having an on-line electronic magthatbest captures the ideas and expertise of this group. Any member can then print out parts or whole for our technology disadvantaged friends(politicallycorrect term??!!) and diseminate freely. This would go along with the "guild" concept but bring it into theelectronic age. It would also require some time and effort but theprintingexpense would be nil. It would be one way to skin the cat to achieve thedesired result. A editorial design committee could meet at the gatherings (overpizza andbeer) to resolve issues of format and layout of info.Just think of it as FAQ / Archives / plus plus. Any comments? Chris from cbogart@ibm.net Wed Jul 24 18:13:45 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA23042 for; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:13:44 -0500test-header: [cbogart@ibm.net] head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA18714; Wed, 24 Jul1996 19:12:49 -0400 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Newsletter Mike First, let me say that I would like the Planing Form be our primaryvehicle for Rodmaking. Now, if that don't work then:Let me take the radical approach and go whole hog (hopefully TBBBQ)and see what options would be. Take the best of the listserver plus contributionsand have an electronic magazine on- line. This would distill (love that work - sourmash or single malt) the monthly or quarterly ramblings into a coherent form. Plus allowquick and cheap publishing of info articles and taper repositories. Now, for ourtechnology challanged friends (is that the politically correct term?) we could printand Xerox (at a fee) the on-line magazine.I really think we should learn how to best exploit this medium toserve our needs. We could have collections gathered from the "archives" concerningsubjects over the years?? and just good stuff. I say let'st get creative - maybe eventrade brew recipes ? or is that going too far. Mike take charge and bring us into thenext mellenium. Chris from cbogart@ibm.net Wed Jul 24 18:13:48 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA23049 for; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:13:46 -0500test-header: [cbogart@ibm.net] head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA18725; Wed, 24 Jul1996 19:12:59 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Grayling '97 Wayne Simple suggestion in addition to the "normal" - - did I say normal funand games, - also add a session on wrappings styles and techniques. A littlebit about thread art. Some good discussion about some classic rod wrappingtechniques and styles would be a new vista for some. Everyone needs to wrap the rod but ideason how to achieve some "looks" would prove interesting. Now - - for the pizza fest - - lets convert Wayne's oven into a pizaoven andsee who can do the best rod pizza!!!!!!! Chris from TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org Thu Jul 25 06:36:06 1996 GAA11285 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 06:36:04-0500test-header: [TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org] mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA18012 for; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 07:35:22 -0400 Thu, 25 Jul 96 7:10:47 EST5EDT EST5EDT Thu, 25 Jul 96 7:10:35 EST5EDT Subject: Re: The Politics is MePriority: normal Hello all, Wayne said:Enough Said'nuf heard So,The Planing Form is out as a medium. Electronic mag sounds the most feasable, I'll be willing to help in any way I can. (anything for pizza and beer). I'd like to hear from others on thier feelings on this magazine/"guild" stuff. RegardsTom p.s. - Chris:I have a great recipe for Stout. from bconner@cybercom.net Thu Jul 25 08:06:16 1996 ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:06:11 -0500test-header: [bconner@cybercom.net] JAA26774 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:05:27-0400 Subject: The rodbuilders e-mag So,The Planing Form is out as a medium. Electronic magsounds the most feasable, I'll be willing to help in any way I can.(anything for pizza and beer).I'd like to hear from others on thier feelings on thismagazine/"guild" stuff. If you decide to go ahead with the magazine, be sure to have an archive,preferably a searchable one. Wish we had one for the "back issues" of thelist here... Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Jul 25 08:51:58 1996 ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:51:57 -0500 test-header: [TSmithwick@aol.com] rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:53:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Newsletter Mike - Thanks for your reply, which along with Wayne's clarified thesituation a bit. I still think you should send Ron a few months of archivesand see what happens. He always will need publishable material, and Isuspectwhatever his reluctance he will soon be on board. I still think " ThePlaningForm " is the best way to reach the electronically challenged.( Is that politically correct enough, Chris? ) -- Tom Smithwick from vedwards@freeway.net Thu Jul 25 08:54:48 1996 ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:54:47 -0500test-header: [vedwards@freeway.net] JAA04726 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:53:57-0400 Subject: Re: Newsletter Mike-Your idea on the newsletter is a good one. Having edited a fewnewslettersI'd like to offer some thoughts. Perhaps the option requiring the least amount of work would be to justhave the archives printed and mailed. No editing or condensing, just printit and mail it. A Kwik copy or similar establishment would run off theneeded number of copies, slap label on them and drip them in the mail. Anothe option would be to format each issue of the newsletter intosections (i.e. Tapers, Finishes, Ferrules, Bamboo, reel seats, guide wraps,etc) and place the realted messages under each topic. Over time thenewsletter would develop into a pretty handy reference. (This trick worksvery well on a hard drive for organizning messages downloaded form herealso). Obviously this option would require a higher subscription rate butIMO would be well worth it. One of the attractions of this option is that non-computer types couldsendin a message (to the editor or to volunteers wiling to have their namelisted) and have the message posted. "How do you split bamboo" and thenseeall the answers this generates published in a future issue. A subscriberthen gets the benefit of everyone's input rather than one guy writing him aletter. The mailing list would grow. Perhaps slowly at first but grow it would.The quality of the group here and at Grayling assure the subscription listwould grow. As a relative newcomer to the group here, I am not in any way stating"This is gospel". Quite the contrary, I am simply offering thoughts for thegroup's consideration. Even though I have internet access to this group I would subscribe. It isquicker to look up an answer in a binder of newsletters than it is to turnon my computer, log on, find it in the archives, print it out and then usethe information. Anybody else got thoughts on the subject? Victor ------------------------------------------------------------Victor Edwardsvedwards@freeway.net from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Thu Jul 25 10:53:35 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA20526 for; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:53:33 -0500 test-header: [bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us] Subject: Newletter To allPlease keep in mind that I'm new to this list and this is my opinionand that I'm in the process of making my first rod. I would like to see the archives available to anyone who would like themthruthe postal service, up to the present time. I have copied a lot off the netbut it take a lot of time to copy and I have to pay for my copies (this isnota big deal the cost). I would have gladly paid for the archives and recived all of them at once. Second thing I would like to see is a subscription service to what hasbeen talked about over E-mail in the last month or so. There should be acost If this is done through the Planing Form or by anyone out there, I haveno opinion. As a newbie you are looking for information any where you canget it. I would like to address this to Wayne Cattanach:Is ther a possibility of including the section on rod design out ofGarrison / Carmichaels book in to your book. Here is what has happen tome.I have ask you and others numerous questions about Hexrod and a lot thatis related to design. I guess I just have to where everything comes from andnever take numbers at face value. Last week I ordered Garrison /Carmichaelbook ($75.00 is hit for a book) the first section I when to was TaperDesignsand went through the calculations, at that point Hexrod made sense to meandI understand what is going on. I also have and appreciation of the workyou did to put Hexrod together. If I would have had Garrison / Carmichael bookI could have with held a lot of "well lets say mentally challengedquestions". Well this is my thoughts, thanks for the space and timeRegardsBob Berry (FFF) from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Jul 25 12:24:59 1996 ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:24:58 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:23:58 -0400 Subject: Answer For Bob Bob -Your point concerning the omission is correct and well taken - Followwith us for the next month or so and there will be a more formal anddetailedexplaination. Bob Reid ask if I could do a talk at Catskill II on rod design.This time I'm committed to have handouts with charts and graphs. All willbeavailable for those that don't make it to NY.I never realized the potential interest of bamboo rodmaking and I didfall short in a few areas of the book - but someday there will be arevision- I feel that I am still learning and I have made notes as time andquestionshave arose. It all takes time - but in the meanwhile I think that you have awilling group of very knowledgable folks as close as your keyboard. Wayne from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Jul 25 13:20:37 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA28512 for; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:20:36 -0500test-header: [stetzer@csd.uwm.edu] (4.1/SMI-4.0); Thu, 25 Jul 96 07:51:41 CDT NAA05693 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 Subject: How are plastic rods designed? Does anyone know how the big manufacturers of gr*ph*t* rods(e.g. S*g*, L**m*s, *rv*s) design their rods? Do they useengineering models like Garrison's to predict rod action from designvariables? I can't believe it is entirely by trial-and-error... I'm sure their design variables are totally different from ours.But I'd be curious to know what kind of things their models predict.Is it equivalent to "stress" or is it something else?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from arqmmao@dow.on.doe.ca Thu Jul 25 13:25:27 1996 NAA28815 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:25:23-0500test-header: [arqmmao@dow.on.doe.ca] (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA154929075; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:24:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Newsletter I think having another source is a great idea, regardless of the format.If you just print up all the old posts to the group, you may inhibit somepeople from posting questions, especially so called "dumb" questions. Iknow I had MANY of them when I started, and if I thought they would beprinted, I may not have asked. Also, If the whole point is to give people accessto the info on the rodbuilder's list, then perhaps the best way to do it,is to sumarize the thoughts and suggestions given on a certain thread,and print that, perhaps leaving out the name of the person who asked ageneral "how do I" type question. course, I'd pay a bit more for the extra info, and I'm sure most peoplewould too. Just my $0.02Mauro from BewleyJ@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil Thu Jul 25 14:58:41 1996 SMTP id OAA04289 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 199614:58:39 -0500 test-header: [BewleyJ@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil] SMTP id QAA29987 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 199616:14:54 -0400 Subject: Re[2]: Hexrod Explaination Jerry, Tried your excel 5 verson listed under "stuff". I have "DOS" and "Win". Once I got it unziped it, it worked just fine. Have been unable to unzip the other files like "binder", "oven" etc. Still working on them. Jim B. ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: Hexrod ExplainationAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at Internet-Mail Bob,all I mounted an excel 5 hexrod version on the archive under stuff. It's in raw format so just clicking on it should download it. I need someone with a DOS/WIN machine to download and test it from the arc. It's not as complete as I would like yet (Chris) but all the functions seem to be pretty bug free. I also placed a few tapers on line, namely, Chris,AJ, and Payne. Would someone give me some feedback before I go on. Thanx Jerry from cbogart@ibm.net Thu Jul 25 18:03:03 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA12720 for; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:03:01 -0500test-header: [cbogart@ibm.net] 1996 19:02:17 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: The Politics is Me Wayne Stout is good - Reed if you are reading this list on your travelsBring back another bottle of that single malt - we are going to need it for"executive" decision making - oh yeah. Chris from cbogart@ibm.net Thu Jul 25 18:03:05 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA12725 for; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:03:03 -0500test-header: [cbogart@ibm.net] 1996 19:02:20 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Newsletter Tom You are right - give the planing form access to anything thelist has produced - and see what happens. We could pursue the ad hocelectronic publishing as a real-time forum and pass the results to theplaning form to pass to (place politically correct term here) friends.I am for developing the maximun exchange of information and people know they have the right to distribute it freely helps too. AllI would be concerned with if someone took our inputs and then tried tomake a buck off of it without giving credit where credit is due. Chris from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Jul 25 19:46:34 1996 ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:46:33 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 20:47:25 -0400 Subject: The Story Of.....'Grayrock' Those of you that live in or near a larger city may not fully appreciatethe convience of the situation. Sure there is the glamour of the country ornorth woods life. But it has its sutle reminders every know and then.Personally I live 4 miles from the nearest town - our family settled herein1869 and the neighbors haven't kicked us out yet - there are only 4 othersonthe mile. Each morning I drive 30 mile to the big city of Grand Rapids tomy' golden handcuffs' job. And before I return I go through a 'things to getand do list before I return home at night.Now consider Grayling or better yet Frederic, a town just north ofGrayling, where 'rockism' started. It is your atypical rural northernMichigan town - a bar - a gas station - no industry. If you need somethingitrequires hopping in the car and going to the big town of Grayling. Wellwiththe town name of Frederic is wasn't too long before some disenchantedfolksbegan using the name Fredrock as a kind of light jest of the towns serviceofferings.Soon 'rockism' began to spread - even with Grayling being a BIGGERtownit still at times doesn't offer all that a person might need. Now it took awhile but for some, who were used to the services available in the BIGcities'rockism' took a stronger foothold - and thus it became our beloved -"Grayrock" - Your typical love it - hate it relationship from 'West Canada Corners Rocks'Wayne from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Jul 25 20:02:22 1996 ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 20:02:20 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 21:03:59 -0400 Subject: 'Rockism' Well we all remember Fred & Wilma lived in 'Bedrock' from Fallcreek9@aol.com Thu Jul 25 21:45:25 1996 ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 21:45:24 -0500 test-header: [Fallcreek9@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:46:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Newsletter In a message dated 96-07-25 19:07:07 EDT, you write: AllI would be concerned with if someone took our inputs and then tried tomake a buck off of it without giving credit where credit is due. Chris Just a thought. Ron is in the process of publishing a book of a lot of thearticles from the Planing Form, up thru about the first of the year. Couldwe be getting into some sort of a tangle with the passing of our listingstothe PF?? RTyree from TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org Fri Jul 26 07:31:31 1996 HAA02193 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:31:29 -0500test-header: [TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org] mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA24648 for; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:30:47 -0400 Fri, 26 Jul 96 8:06:08 EST5EDT EST5EDT Fri, 26 Jul 96 8:05:39 EST5EDT Subject: Re: The Story Of.....'Grayrock'/Finish ques.Priority: normal Hello all,Wayne wrote:Those of you that live in or near a larger city may not fullyappreciatethe convience of the situation. Sure there is the glamour of the countryornorth woods life. But it has its sutle reminders every know and then.I hear ya,Stats from My houseClosest paved road - 2 milesClosest grocery store - 11 milesClosest Gas station - 3 milesclosest convienent store - see gas station aboveDeer population > people population (about 400)Miles of dirt road >> miles of paved road.Nearest McDonalds = 18 miles.Nearest Burger King = 25 milesCommute to work - 38 milesKids bus ride = 10 miles, 1 hour. They get on at 6:30 amOur town doesn't have a bar (probably a good thing, come to think of it, it probably is why my wife wanted to live here). Nearest bar = 12 milesMost important, nearest trout stream - 1 mile. Cane rod related question:I know this has been covered one hundred times, but... Finishes, I'm having a tough time deciding which way to go. What I would like to do is survey all of you as to what you use and your procedure. If the response is good, I'll gather all answers and collate it in to document post it as a type of FAQ or something. Also, not be to pushy, can I have it in the following format???1. What do you use?2: How do you use it?3. What have you tried and why did you change?4. Any other finish words of wisdom, hints, and warnings etc? Thanks!!!Tom AusfeldNewbury "rocks", Vt. from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Jul 26 08:29:19 1996 ; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:29:18 -0500 test-header: [TSmithwick@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:28:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Newsletter Chris Bogart wrote:I would be concerned with if someone took our inputs and then >tried tomake a buck off of it without giving credit where credit is >due. Chris - The point you and Richard make here is valid. One of thecomplications of any of the publishing schemes discussed is that thepublisher would have to have permission from the writer in order to avoidlegal complications. I doubt that this would be a big stumbling block, butitwould have to be addressed. --- Tom from WayneCatt@aol.com Fri Jul 26 08:30:48 1996 ; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:30:46 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:32:14 -0400 Subject: Finish Tom -I know that you may not want to hear this but a dipping system is theway to go - It really doesn't require all that I have in mine. Ken Rongey, alocal friend built a light frame work enclosure that he can set up and useand then dismantle for storage. Ken is on the list and can perhaps sharethedetails. Then between coats you must sand with 1000 or 1500 gritsandpaper.Ken produces an excellent finish this way - many of you may have seenexamples at 'Grayrock'.The list of brand names that I have tried - unsuccessfully - are: min-wax (too thin and over oxidized - dull finish)Moore (improperly polymerized - particles develope from no where)Petite - (over oxidized -dull finish) I do use PPG Poly 75-5PPG Spar 75-10Efiphanes Blak So just stop on down to Newbury Paint & Decor and grab a quart or two Wayne from BewleyJ@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil Fri Jul 26 08:32:55 1996 SMTP id IAA04031 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 199608:32:53 -0500 test-header: [BewleyJ@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil] SMTP id JAA03979 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 199609:49:09 -0400 Subject: Re[2]: The Story Of.....'Grayrock'/Finish ques. Tom, My computer has the CC:Mail program and when I get a message from the list it "blind copies" me. If you do not put your mail address and name at the bottom I have no idea who sent it, other then "THE LIST". I have no idea why it does this. Please send me your direct address and I will pass on my method as you asked. Don't want to bother everyone again. Thanks, Jim B. PS. I live in a setting much like you and Wayne. I love it. If I never saw another McDonalds or Walmart I would be very happy. ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: The Story Of.....'Grayrock'/Finish ques.Author: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at Internet-Mail Hello all,Wayne wrote:Those of you that live in or near a larger city may not fullyappreciate the convience of the situation. Sure there is the glamour of the countryornorth woods life. But it has its sutle reminders every know and then. I hear ya,Stats from My houseClosest paved road - 2 milesClosest grocery store - 11 milesClosest Gas station - 3 milesclosest convienent store - see gas station above Deer population > people population (about 400) Miles of dirt road >> miles of paved road. Nearest McDonalds = 18 miles.Nearest Burger King = 25 milesCommute to work - 38 milesKids bus ride = 10 miles, 1 hour. They get on at 6:30 amOur town doesn't have a bar (probably a good thing, come to think of it, it probably is why my wife wanted to live here). Nearest bar = 12 milesMost important, nearest trout stream - 1 mile. Cane rod related question:I know this has been covered one hundred times, but... Finishes, I'm having a tough time deciding which way to go. What I would like to do is survey all of you as to what you use and your procedure. If the response is good, I'll gather all answers and collate it in to document post it as a type of FAQ or something. Also, not be to pushy, can I have it in the following format???1. What do you use?2: How do you use it?3. What have you tried and why did you change?4. Any other finish words of wisdom, hints, and warnings etc? Thanks!!!Tom AusfeldNewbury "rocks", Vt. from Fallcreek9@aol.com Fri Jul 26 08:59:07 1996 ; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:59:06 -0500 test-header: [Fallcreek9@aol.com] RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:00:07 -0400 Subject: Newsletter Hello Mike - you'r trying to start a newsletter - Biando: Reference your suggestion of beefing up the List to include a newsletterorsome other I-net enhancement. I think it is forward thinking. As mentioned, the future is now and just rode in on a stream of electrons! Ithink the List and the Planing Form should be working together to form andestablish a merger of some kind that would use the strengths of both andthata really good product could result. Tho I am not among them, there aremanyon the List who have the sav vy to make it work. News Letter, Magazine,Consolidated Data Base, or Whatever, it dosn't matter. I think we cannot ignore the rush of technology, nor do we help the causeofthe gentle art we embrace by going our seperate ways. I do realize that ittakes two to tango and that there is a reluctance on the part of thePlaningForm. Perhaps those who are on good terms with the PF could start adialogwith Ron and see what happens. Tho a bit intimidated by such things, I willhelp in this if asked. John Zimny might be another good one to help. Before we do, however, it might be a good idea to have an agenda or good direction suggest to go. This could be the first step in forming a guild such as AJ Thramer andotherssuggested several months ago. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from WayneCatt@aol.com Fri Jul 26 11:24:17 1996 ; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:24:15 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:25:23 -0400 Subject: Suggestion To test the water why doesn't the list do this - some one volunteer toassemble a 'Rodmaker Review' - include in it some questions andcomments and to send with TPF - just a 'blow in' - BUT editorial control remains theLists. Ron has neglected to mention a few things in TPF lately like: 1)The fact that the LIST even exists or how to get to it 2)There was a flier(I have one if you would like to see it) that almost gotpasted around at Grayrock - announcing that next year on TBBBQ weekend(whichRon - Steve - Vic had agreeded to be a yearly event)the get together wasbeing moved to Canada - Ted said that it was Ron's idea and that they hadtalked about it since Janurary - That was certainly embarassing for Ted.TheCanada gathering has since been rescheduled 3)Knowing the above - there was no mention of any get together next yearatGrayrock in a recent announcement of the coming events of interest tobamboorod makers in TPF Even if Ron should chose to join us here - which by the way I would love tosee - I still think the list NEEDS to retain editorial control so that thegroup's voice is heard as the group wants. Wayne from Fallcreek9@aol.com Fri Jul 26 13:00:27 1996 ; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 13:00:25 -0500 test-header: [Fallcreek9@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 14:01:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Re[2]: The Story Of.....'Grayrock'/Finish ques. Please send me your direct address and I will pass on my method as you asked. Don't want to bother everyone again. Thanks, Jim B. Jim B.: Hey man, share yours with the rest of us. I am sure no one willconsider it a bother. Sharing rod-building info is what the list is allabout. Best Regards,Richard TyreeFallcreek9@aol.com from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Fri Jul 26 13:49:17 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA17229 for; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 13:49:15 -0500 test-header: [bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us] Subject: Archives? AllWould someone tell me how to find the Archives (in detail). I'm looking cyberspace for the last 2 hours but I now know every rod site on the netexcept the one I wanted. HELP Bob Berry (FFF) from ballard@zen.wes.army.mil Fri Jul 26 14:14:16 1996 ; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 14:14:14 -0500test-header: [ballard@zen.wes.army.mil] (5.x/SMI-SVR4) Subject: planing form gouges Some days are just better than others. Yesterday while planing aspline I kept having trouble keeping my block plane parallel to theplaning form surface. The result was I kept gouging the side edge ofmy planing form and cutting metal shavings. I found out that this is areally easy way to dull your blade. Should I stop and resurface/touch-up my form? Or wait and do itafter I finish all 6 splines? Need some advice here from our moreexperienced list members. Thanks,Jerry Ballardballard@zen.wes.army.mil p.s.I like the 'Rodmaker Review' idea. There are a lot of good ideasand solutions in the archives that are a lot of help. from BewleyJ@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil Fri Jul 26 14:57:20 1996 SMTP id OAA20195 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 199614:57:18 -0500 test-header: [BewleyJ@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil] SMTP id QAA06180 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 199616:13:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Archives? Bob, Go to : home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm Jim B. ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Archives?Author: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at Internet-Mail AllWould someone tell me how to find the Archives (in detail). I'm looking cyberspace for the last 2 hours but I now know every rod site on the net except the one I wanted. HELP Bob Berry (FFF) from WayneCatt@aol.com Fri Jul 26 17:35:28 1996 ; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:35:26 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:36:27 -0400 Subject: Onward to Roscoe Looking ahead a few weeks - How many are going to Cattskill II???? -Unless the weather is horrific - a couple of the Michigan trout bums areplanning on staying at the "Gander Mountain Motel or the 'Kelty Inn'whereever they might be pitched. For those that attended last year - arethere any recommended campgrounds that are on stream and allow troutbums???Bob asked if I would do a thing on design - are there any special rodsthat the group would like to see graphs for ??? Would any of you beinterested in bringing a rod with the graphs for those rods to comparenotes???? Can somebody bring a lap top ??? printer ????? Tom - I have a minature dipping system - if You ask I'm sure that someof us can bring a can of our favorite (finish that is) and a cut off piece tosee first hand how it applies.How far Roscoe to Bayport ??? What hatches or flies ??? Is there aSpike's of Roscoe ??? Wayne from cbogart@ibm.net Fri Jul 26 17:50:52 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA27169 for; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:50:50 -0500test-header: [cbogart@ibm.net] 1996 18:49:49 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: planing form gouges Jerry As I've said before - - some days the Bamboo Gods smile onyou and some days they don't. No need to touch up your forms - you haven't done enough damage to disturb the taper - - retouching can - and chances arethat you will not get the taper set exactly again. Lesser oftwo evils. Wayne showed me a trick to help keep your problem to a minimum:file off the sharp corners of your plane blade a bit - - It is an areathat you will not use and the sharp edge can catch. This is in leiu ofhaving a recessed grouve in the plane sole and training wheels! Chris from cbogart@ibm.net Fri Jul 26 18:19:31 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA28226 for; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:19:28 -0500test-header: [cbogart@ibm.net] TAA04558; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 19:18:45 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Onward to Roscoe Wayne So many questions. There was a good pizza /Italian resturantthat the group went to last year. Lets set aside some time for discussions of an on-line magand issues / reprocussions / benefits. Important questions: - Who is the brew meister? - Is Reed bringing another bottle of single malt? Lastly - - let's find and book an "official" hotel /camp ground - - last year me and John ended up talking to a burnedout fly tier who has seen better days!! Chris from WayneCatt@aol.com Fri Jul 26 18:44:23 1996 ; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:44:22 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 19:46:06 -0400 Subject: Re: planing form gouges Jerry -Planing forms are 'chewed' up more on the first couple of rods than forthe rest of their lives. The caution is that there are no raises - high spots from the nicks - that will kick the sole of the plane up - losing theneededdimensions. If high spots a soft pass of a file will cure them - BUT - besure to clean away any filings especially in the 'V'. Even with a coursefile it will take a bit of filing to make any noticable (dimensional) changein the forms. The other question is do the gouges cause inaccuracy? No -Consider the surfaces of contact the plane sole and the forms - any changewould have to be the entire length of the contact surface to cause aproblem.As Chris mentioned I now round the corners of the plane blade to keepfromstubbing your 'toes' on the forms - they can be ground on a grinder - BUTjust touch the blade to the grinder and then water quench otherwise youmightdraw out the temper of the blade - a belt sander is a good way to do thisalso - another thing to try is to cant the plane a bit - this does two things- it increases the surface length of the sole and it skews the blade to thebamboo.Once you are with in .010" or so do yourself a favor and switch to abodied scraper - follow - setting the blade of the scraper a couple ofdegrees forward of center you are in esence 'dragging' the blade over thebamboo.After you go grumbling over to the sharpening stones a few more timesyou will get the feel of keeping the plane body parallel to the surface ofthe forms. Wayne from JCZIMNY@dol.net Fri Jul 26 21:29:36 1996 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03584 for ;Fri, 26 Jul 1996 21:29:35 - 0500test-header: [JCZIMNY@dol.net] Subject: Re: Onward to Roscoe Chris Bogart wrote: Wayne So many questions. There was a good pizza /Italian resturantthat the group went to last year. Lets set aside some time for discussions of an on-line magand issues / reprocussions / benefits. Important questions: - Who is the brew meister? - Is Reed bringing another bottle of single malt? Lastly - - let's find and book an "official" hotel /camp ground - - last year me and John ended up talking to a burnedout fly tier who has seen better days!! ChrisGeez Chris! We gots to avoid the Roscoe Motel at all costs.John from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sat Jul 27 09:20:50 1996 ; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 09:20:48 -0500 test-header: [Fallcreek9@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 10:22:34 -0400 Subject: Re: planing form gouges In a message dated 96-07-26 15:22:57 EDT, you write: The result was I kept gouging the side edge ofmy planing form and cutting metal shavings. I found out that this is areally easy way to dull your blade. Should I stop and resurface/touch-up my form? Or wait and do itafter I finish all 6 splines? Need some advice here from our moreexperienced list members. Hi Jerry:Whenever that problem maxes out with me, I look to see if there is not aslight cant to the blade with respect to the sole of the plane. In otherewords, one corner will be a bit lower than the other. Regards,RTyree from jfoster@gte.net Sat Jul 27 10:00:54 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA19055 for; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 10:00:53 -0500test-header: [jfoster@gte.net] SMTP(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA020429609; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 10:00:09 - 0500 Subject: Re: Archives? Chris, Bob, all thanks for the comments.. resemble that remark." Someone was asking about a Base for a dial indicator... Enco has anexcellent one for about $10.. hi but it fits and works well..if youhave any wcatt in you, you can always polish the bottom. Wayne, Mike, I suggested, out of total political incorrectness, to Ron (at the BBQ)that he should join the online group.. I received a "Whats in it forme." ? whats that? Mike,, I appreciate your desire to SERVE, but I still think The Net isthe last bastion of FREE information transfer... p.s. I gather you don't need the forum backed up any longer.. or shouldi just get them in bulk at mo. end from sirronald. (formatted search) engine on my server Bob BerryThe full archive address ishttp://HOME1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm The Tapers are not complete yet, but closer..still futzing with theformat. Been fishing for miniature fish in Ark. for a week. jwf from jfoster@gte.net Sat Jul 27 10:31:15 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA20926 for; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 10:31:14 -0500test-header: [jfoster@gte.net] SMTP(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA046401431; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 10:30:31 - 0500 Subject: Re: Grayling '97 Vote I like chris's suggestion about thread art and a little history.. jwf from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Jul 27 13:58:54 1996 ; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:58:53 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 14:59:33 -0400 Subject: Manufactures At Grayrock '97' I have just been made aware that there was a manufacturer that wantedtodisplay his wares(reelseats) at Grayrock and that he was told by the'organizer' that they weren't welcome there.This bring up a question that the list or Grayrock attendees should bestanswer - Do we want manufactures (of appropiate items) - represented atthegathering??? I thought that there was already an answer - the Demarestswereas guests - But I thought I might ask others opinion.I was Talking with Al Bellinger just the other night and was asking himto come - He has been to the Merrit Lake gathering a couple of times -Therewas a little reluctance at first - however when I mentioned that theremightbe a homebrew beer to be had - he sounded more encouraging.Personally I would think that having folks like Al - the REC folks - andany others that are willing to come would let those that haven't seen theirproducts a chance to 'kick tires' Comments Please ????????Wayne from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Jul 27 13:59:21 1996 ; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:59:20 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 14:58:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Archives? Jerry -Some of us have real respect for your ability to carry politicalincorrectness to new plateaus.Were you back scaring those fish behind Dale & Rona's house again - orhave you found a new locale????Perhaps when I'm finished writing a bit on rod design - I should sent italong to include as a Readme.txt file to include with your program - mixthatwith some onboard example files to create a 'demo'. Wayne from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sun Jul 28 07:06:14 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA10288 for; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 07:06:12 -0500test-header: [dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca] 0600 Subject: Re: Manufactures At Grayrock '97' Wayne, The Merritt get-together has had a number of manufacturers present theirwares over the years. Al Bellinger was one of the first and has attendedseveral times. Each time, the attendees appreciated his time. Hecontributesnot only to the "fittings" part of cane building but also to the actualconstruction of rods. I seem to recall he memtioned that he had built anumber of rods before the reel seat business took off. Othermanufacturershas sent their wares via others for display. Usually the wares wereaccompanied by a fact sheet on the product/company. Over the years, Iwouldexpect that about 10>15 products have been on display.What is unfortunate is that the products usually get little attentionbecause the attendees are so busy BSing with each other about the howsofcane rods. Thats what they came for and they sure are not going to wastetheopportunity. After all, most of the manufacturers wares are available forviewing in sport stores whereas, the guys rarely get an opportunity tojusttalk cane.If a manufacturer realizes that this will/can happen and is notdisappointed Regards, Don At 14:59 27/07/96 -0400, you wrote:I have just been made aware that there was a manufacturer thatwanted todisplay his wares(reelseats) at Grayrock and that he was told by the'organizer' that they weren't welcome there.This bring up a question that the list or Grayrock attendees shouldbestanswer - Do we want manufactures (of appropiate items) - representedat thegathering??? I thought that there was already an answer - the Demarestswereas guests - But I thought I might ask others opinion.I was Talking with Al Bellinger just the other night and was askinghimto come - He has been to the Merrit Lake gathering a couple of times -Therewas a little reluctance at first - however when I mentioned that theremightbe a homebrew beer to be had - he sounded more encouraging.Personally I would think that having folks like Al - the REC folks - andany others that are willing to come would let those that haven't seentheirproducts a chance to 'kick tires' Comments Please ????????Wayne from cbogart@ibm.net Sun Jul 28 09:32:57 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA12113 for; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 09:32:56 -0500test-header: [cbogart@ibm.net] KAA05381; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 10:32:13 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Gathering Topic One of the topic areas that have not been covered well at gatherings is the making of reel seets and ferrules. This fallI am signing up for a machine shop course at the local extensioncenter this fall - just to pick up those skills. We have a couple of themakers who produce their own hardware. It would be benefical toall if they would share some of their techniques with the rest ofthe group. There reaches a point where a maker wants to have hiscustom hardware - rather than store bought - to distinguish him / herself. So anyone who is planing a gathering out there - give thoughtto having someone give a presentation on reel seet making - from theirpoint of view. Thanks Chris from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Mon Jul 29 10:50:46 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA28259 for; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:50:45 -0500test-header: [michael@wupsych.wustl.edu] Subject: _The Planing Form_ I just want to take a moment and let everyone know that I justreceived a subscription request from Ron Barch and _The Planing Form_ I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome Ron to the list. We nowhave the potential for an ever greater sharing of rodmaking information.A potential that if realized could result in a synergy that wouldbenefit all rodmakers. Welcome Ron, we all look foward to the opportunity of further sharingof information, and general rodmaking BS'ing between the RODMAKERS listand _The Planing Form_ Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jul 29 11:28:20 1996 ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 11:28:18 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 12:27:15 -0400 Subject: Hexrod writings Bob B -I spent a few hours this weekend pulling together the notes that I havemade about Mr. Garrison's math - it is about 9 pages so far - Would youlikea copy ?? If there is interest I'll post to list but I don't want to justwaste space.I assume the (FFF) means that you are an active member of theFederation- Are you planning to be in GR in '97'? Wayne from maiello@yorku.ca Mon Jul 29 13:29:33 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06449 for; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:29:30 -0500test-header: [maiello@yorku.ca] (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA13206 for; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:28:48 - 0400 doing -bs Subject: text Hey Wayne.I'd like to have a look at that.I think its a good idea to post, so that it will be in the archives forthe future. Mauro from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Mon Jul 29 13:35:57 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06966 for; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:35:56 -0500 test-header: [bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us] Subject: Garrison's Math WayneYes, I would be very interested in seeing your notes on Garrison's Math.You can send it E-mail over rodmakers, FAX or by mail. Just let me knowyourpreference. Yes I'm a due paying Federation member but the FFF really stand for Flatland Fly Fisher. Since I live in Kansas the whole rest of the world thinkthatKansas is flat (not true). Looking at you home stats I would trade yousightunseen house for house. The nearest Trout stream is 126.3 miles from mydoor.This is mostly why I have a worn to 93 Dodge pick up. About Greyrock "97", yes I'm planning to attend. Bob Berry (FFF) from BewleyJ@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil Mon Jul 29 14:29:20 1996 SMTP id OAB09570 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 199614:29:15 -0500 test-header: [BewleyJ@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil] SMTP id PAA11862 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 199615:45:37 -0400 Subject: Re: text Wayne, I second that. Would like to see it also. Jim B. ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: textAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at Internet-Mail Hey Wayne.I'd like to have a look at that.I think its a good idea to post, so that it will be in the archives for the future. Mauro from ballard@zen.wes.army.mil Mon Jul 29 15:55:29 1996 ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 15:55:27 -0500test-header: [ballard@zen.wes.army.mil] (5.x/SMI-SVR4) Subject: Re: planing form gouges Chris, Wayne, and Richard. Thanks for the advice on my planing form. It was hard not to panicafter I spent all this time getting my form surface mirror smoothand then to plane off some nice chunks! I'll try to start savingup the cash and buy a bodied scraper. Thanks,Jerry Ballardballard@zen.wes.army.mil from hadn@chevron.com Mon Jul 29 16:16:17 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15288 for; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:16:15 -0500test-header: [hadn@chevron.com] (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:15:30 -0700 Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:15:30 -0700 Subject: RE: planing form gouges 4.0.838.14Encoding: 14 TEXT Thanks for the advice on my planing form. It was hard not to panicafter I spent all this time getting my form surface mirror smoothand then to plane off some nice chunks! I'll try to start savingup the cash and buy a bodied scraper. The Lie-Nielson scraper is a must have in my opinion, butthe biggest help for me in avoiding this problem was puttinga groove in the sole of my planes. The procedure is outlined in Bruce Connors FAQ, and there was a detailedarticle on how to do it in The Planing Form last year. Darryl Hayashida from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jul 29 16:16:56 1996 ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:16:51 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:18:31 -0400 Subject: Comments??? Some of the list may have seen parts of this before - some of it is new.As you may detect in reading some of the comments - I think Mr. G orHoagymay have been 'sand bagging' and didn't tell all - Comments are alwayswelcome - There is a new rod taper buried in all this. Wayne Intro Each of us has his or her own style of flyfishing. For some it might be abroad range of situations, for others it may be tightly defined. There aremany factors that contribute to the ideal, some real, some imaginary. And from this there also is a favorite rod that comes to mind to fish these waters. But as varied as the individuals so are the thoughts as to whatcharacteristics make the perfect rod. As a rod maker I've been lead by mypreferences in rod performance. The thought here is to report on what Ihaveseen and how it was done, a guideline of sorts not necessarily for otherstofind the same results but as a basis for others to find and work up roddesigns they prefer. A Fly RodA simple definition of the function of a fly rod is that it is intendedtotransmit energy applied to it to a fly line. The line in turn extends to fulllength and comes to rest. Consequently, the fly rod needs to be made withsufficient material to structurally withstand the forces needed to allowthecast to occur without damage to the fly rod. And lastly, a fly rod shouldpreform its function with a character that is preferred by the caster. Mr. Garrison's IdeaIn search of a rod design method, Mr Garrison decided to use hisknowledge as an engineer. He set up a method of determining themoments(forces) created by the various weights of the line, bamboo,guides,and finish at locations through the length of a fly rod. To this he appliedthe character of a f(b) stress curve which was a different way of usingthatnormal element of the material. Instead of using a fixed figure he chose tovary the value to either increase or decrease the flexure of the fly rod. Hisnormal stress curve started with high values for the tip and graduallydiminished the values through the length of the rod. This gave the greatestflexure to the tip and gradually stiffened the rod into the butt. A New EraMr. Garrison developed his design ideas and mathematics in the late20's andearly 30's. During that era his only aids were paper and pencil and sliderule. Today even the simplest calculators can do the mathematics.Although,I'm told that one rod design still takes several evenings. That's right, I'venever done a manual run through of the math. Having been computerized intheearly 70's I saw Mr. Garrison's math as an ideal application. But even withacomputer involved an understanding of the math is still needed. Action LengthBecause the fly rod is gripped by the hand most feel that the actualaffectof the rod design ends at the cork grip. Consequently the action length,thatpart of the rod that actually has character, is the distance from the tiptopto the top of the cork grip. Because the planing forms are set in 5 "increments a figure for the action length that is divisible by 5 is alwayschosen. Moments(forces)A moment is defined as a force attempting to cause rotation about adefinedpoint. Where the direction of force and the arm of leverage areperpendicular. As an example consider tightening a nut with a wrench.Let'suse these given factors. from the center of the nut to the center of thehandapplying the force is 1' or 12". And the hand is applying a pressure of 1 lbor 16 oz.Then the moments of this example would be as follows: L X P = M1' X 1# = 1 foot pound1' X 16oz = 16 foot ounces12" X 1# = 12 inch pounds12" X 16oz = 192 inch ounces All of the above are correct calculations and terms. However for ourpurposes working with inch ounces will be the easiest. Inches to measuredistance (L) and ounces to measure weight (P). Impact FactorEssentially this force is determined by the actual weight being hungoff thetip of the fly rod multiplied by a safety factor. The weight is that of thefly line being fished and the weight of the tip top itself added togetherandexpressed in ounces. This figure is then multiplied by 4 which is thesafetyfactor. Understand Mr. Garrison's mathematics deals with static design.Static means that the elements are at rest. In real life a fly rod is adynamic device it sees motion and other external forces other than that ofjust the static weights. To visualize this consider the fly line laying onthe water surface. When the cast is started not only is the weight of theflyline being lifted but also the surface drag applied by the water contact.The4 multiplier was derived at by tests that Mr. Garrison preformed. An ExampleAt present, a fly line is classified by the weight (in grains) of thefirst30' of the fly line. For a #4 weight fly line this is 120 grains. A standardtip top weights about 8 grains. Because we will be working in ouncesthesefigures need to be converted into ounces. There are 437 grains per ounce.Thetip impact factor would then be determined as follows: Line = 120/347 = .275 ozTip Top = 8/437 = .018 oz_____Total = .293 ozFactor x4_____Tip Impact 1.172 oz It isn't often that you may wish to design a rod at 30',the distancethatall fly lines weights are standardized at, so another method is needed. Asimple and fairly accurate method would be to simply weigh the entire flyline and then determine a weight per foot by dividing that total weight bythe total length of the fly line. This value would be weight/foot whichwouldthen be multiplied by the line length desired. Tip MomentsOnce the tip impact is determined then the moments that the tipimpactcreate can be calculated. For an action length let's imagine that we aredesigning a 7' 6" (90") rod. Together the normal handle and reelseat are10".So the action length of a 7' 6" rod is 80". And because the planing formsareset at 5" increments the calculations of the tip impact would look asfollows: tip (1.172 x 0) = 0.005" (1.172 x 5 = 5.86010" (1.172 x 10) = 11.720..80" (1.172 x 80) = 93.760 Line In Guides MomentsTo account for the line as it pass down the rod the center of gravityforeach location needs to be determined. The center of gravity could bethoughtof as the balance point. An example would be if the point underinvestigationis 5" location then the center of gravity would be 2.5" because the line isof uniform weight. The line weight is calculated for the appropriate linesize. Looking back to our other line example, if 30' of #4 weight lineweighs120 grains 1" weights .334 grains or .0008 oz. So the moments for the lineonthe rod would look as follows: tip (.0008 x 0 x 0 x 4) = .00005" (.0008 x 5 x 2.5 x 4) = .10010" (.0008 x 10 x 5 x 4) = .160...80 (.0008 x 80 x 40 x 4) = 10.240 Varnish And Guide MomentsBecause of their diminished effect on the final results Mr. Garrisoncalculated these values one time and then used those figures as a standardonall future rod designs. Even with the added power of a computer it wouldbeimpractical to set up an alogarithm to come any closer that the graphedvalues Mr. Garrison used. Ferrule Moments The ferrule moments are calculated in the same fashion as the tipmomentsexcept that there is no weight until the ferrules. In our example if the7'6"(90") rod is a 2 piece the ferrules are located at 45" so there would beno ferrule moments until that point. from experience a 7' 6" 2 piece rodrequire a size 13/64 ferrule which weighs 118 grains or .271 ounce. Againaimpact factor is used (multiply x 4) therefore the calculations would beasfollows:45" (.271 x 0 x 4) = 0.00050" (.271 x 5 x 4) = 1.355..80" (.271 x 35 x 4) = 9.485 Center Of Gravity thecenter of gravity of their weight needs to be accounted for. Unlike the linethat is off the rod the ferrules are a part of the rod and would use a lengthfigure from the actual location to the location under investigation. Bamboo MomentsThese are the most complex to calculate and are of sufficient valueto makethose calculation worthwhile. I'm not going into all the mathematics of itall but just explain the concept. As you move from the tip to the butt oftherod the dimensions across the flats increase or the mass increases.Consequently a calculation to determine the center of mass is required todetermine the location of the leverage arm for calculating the moments ateach location. To start these values are of an imaginary rod. Then as the actual roddimensions are derived then these values are substituted to bring themomentsof the bamboo weight closer to their real life values. Total MomentsWith all the individual moments calculated their values are addedtogetherto reach total moments for each of the locations from the tip to the end ofaction length. Remember that these totals are only temporary that as newdimensions are generated then the moments are recalculated because ofthechanges in the bamboo moments. The DimensionsTo determine the dimensions for the proposed rod design the totalmomentsand the allowable stress values are placed into the following formula: Now as I have mentioned earlier these dimensions were onlytemporary and tobring them into more accurate values the bamboo moments arerecalculated andthen used with the allowable stress values to get a second value and thenathird refiguring occurred.A valid question that can be raised is whether more times throughthecalculations would yield more accurate dimensions. Remember that in reallifewe are only working to be physically accurate to the nearest .001" andthreederivations yield that mathematically. In Real LifeWell on paper the stress curve Mr. Garrison developed had a smoothflow toit starting with a high value at the tip and gradually descending to lowervalues in the butt section. However, remember that the figureddimensions unpractically small to make so he arbitrarily increased them and thenblendedthe new tip dimension into the natural slope of the dimensional graph.But it is never mentioned in his writings what this did in real life tohisstress curve. Well, by adding material he consequently lowered the f(b)values at the tip. Between The LinesIt is another of those unmentioned items that sets the mind towandering(wondering). But by simply rewriting the formula (I did it and Iflunked rocket science - so I find it hard to believe that Mr. G had at somepoint in time) instead of solving for dimensions using stress values,stressvalues can be derived from dimensions. In the text that leads up to theexplanation of the mathematics there is information that Mr. Garrison mayhave used an 8' Payne in developing his stress curves.Whatever the case the program I ended up with is bidirectional as farasstress values are concerned which can launch a person into discoveringthe dimensions of a rod and to know at what distance that the castability oftherod is maximized. I suspect that some where there is a note book that would tell all. Program AccuracyIt has been brought up that there are a few ever so slight differencesinthe program I wrote, Hexrod, and the way Mr. Garrison did his math. Thesedifferences are in the varnish and guide moments. To test to see howagreeable the two are I ran a side by side comparison to see. The test rodwas the one that illustrates the math in his book. It might be pointed outthat some of the deviation might be from slide rule versus computersyndrome. Mr.Garrison Hexrod delta.047 .047 -.081 .081 -.104 .104 -.122 .122 -.136 .137 .001.150 .151 .001.163 .164 .001.175 .177 .003.188 .189 .001.199 .201 .002 .213 .214 .001.227 .228 .001.241 .242 .001.254 .255 .001 .268 .269 .001 .282 .282 -.296 .296 - As you can see the differences are small if any. But a better testmight bethe program against itself. A second test would be given the dimensionsgenerated by the first run how close to the original stresses will theprogram come? Run #1 Run #2196000 200838196000 198957189000 192663184500 184546180000 180010175000 174825170000 170980167000 166210164000 163895161250 161417158500 158655156000 156115153500 153333151750 152362150000 149668148250 148819146500 146605 Then the most important test of all. For a third test I reentered thestressvalues determined in the second run to see if I would get the samedimensionsas what were input for the second test. There were no differences whencarried out to the nearest thousands of an inch. Which proved to me atleastagainst itself Hexrod could yield repeated and trustable results. I chose toforego any test which required digging out my K & E log - log slide rule. Revisited Garrison CurveAs was mentioned earlier Mr. Garrison didn't adhere to thedimensions thathe obtained for his tip dimensions. Instead he chose to alter the dimensionupward to make it easier to make. Lets just for the sake of seeing look atwhat his stress curve would look like if he had plotted it with this tipalteration. Well the tip f(b) drops from the initial 196000 to just 51457. OnwardI have only made one rod based on the Garrison tapers. Here again apersonalpreference. What I did was start miking rods and swapping tapers withothermakers. The swapping part is reminiscent of a earlier stage of lifeinvolvingbaseball cards. With each newly obtained taper I would run the numbersthrough Hexrod to see what the character of the rod looked like stresscurvewise. from this I narrowed down the different characters of rod tapers tothose that I liked. Can I describe the action? Not really but I can show youthe character graphically. Tip 4588305 14574010 17104115 16979720 17109425 15394430 15005135 12918140 13300845 15141750 15043055 14496260 14594265 153009A general description of the rod character would be that of aparabolic. ButI seldom use that term because of the immediate association with whatMr.Garrison called a parabolic which tends to have a cooling effect in somecanerod circles. But with a little imagination you can see the distinct reversed'J' of the curve which by most everyones definition is a parabolic action.softer tip, rigid mid section, & a softer butt. A reversed 'J' graph wise. Action SpeedBecause a rod action is a bit difficult to define I will also include afewgraphs from other action rods just to perhaps add a little clarity. Aclassicfast action dry fly action would look like this. Tip 10354305 28399210 25583815 26815320 19182625 18994530 16461135 18176140 17754345 17770650 16341655 15146360 11342365 10887270 9902175 91516 The rod listed above is perhaps one of the real classics. A 1920'sLeonardCatskill 7'0" #2 weight.(Now how many quessed that one right ???) Hereare alist of the numbers for those that would like them : Tip .04305 .05310 .07015 .08020 .10025 .11030 .12535 .13040 .14045 .15050 .16555 .18060 .21065 .22570 .23074 .23075 .24576 .26580 .26584 .265 If you think about it for a minute it does make sense. A fast actionrod hasa very soft tip descending into a very strong butt as you can see in thenumbers. Or as I refer to it a 'high amplitude' or f(b) range. And thereverse is also true a rod with 'low amplitude' or f(b) range would have aslow action. Why Stresses Not Dimensions?I am often asked this question when discussing rod tapers andalteration. AsI pointed out earlier a f(b) curve only represents a character and onlyrelates to makable numbers when a tip impact factor, number of sections,&such are applied. The character remains the same whether it is a 3 weightora 4 weight, two piece or 3 piece. How ever if you were to look at thedimensions of these rods there is little in common to be able to alter withmuch success. Even if the compared rods are both the same number ofpiecesbut different line weights the general 'slope' of the graphed dimensionswillbe different because of differing ferrule weights and bamboo weights.6'3" 6'3"#3/2 #4/2Tip .065 .070 .005 dif05 .077 .08210 .093 .10015 .108 .11620 .120 .12825 .137 .14630 .150 .16035 .169 .17940 .180 .19145 .185 .19650 .198 .20955 .213 .22460 .225 .236 65 .233 .244 .011 dif Things To TryOver the years some of what I think are the best casting rods wereblendedcharacters. By this I actually curve averaged two distinct f(b) curves fromtwo rods creating a entirely new f(b) curve. The possibilities could beviewed as endless but there are certainly limits to all workablecombinations. But rod design is not necessarily the myst that some makeitout to be. A good start might be to graph known tapers that you have castandknow the feel of. Then perhaps you might design a 3 piece rod with thesamecharacter as a 2 piece that you are familiar with. Then move on tochangingline sizes of rods that you have made. What you will find is that instead ofjust concentrating on which fly to pick next time on the stream you willstart to think more about the character of the rod and its part of the bigpicture. The Next StepIt may have been a presumption on my part but I advanced the cause rewriting Mr. Garrison's formula and started solving for f(b) givendimensions. That way I could use his idea as a 'ruler' to investigate otherexisting rods for their stress characteristics. To determine a tip impactfactor (weight of line hung off the rod tip) the rod under investigationwould be cast and the distance at which the rod maximized was used asthevalue. This began to raise questions of how the energy was supposed to'flow'through a fly rod. Some of what I thought to be the best casting rods hadsome of the most unusual stress curves. Beyond this, a stress curve only defines the character of a rod so byrecalculating different line weights, and number of sections differentrodswere created with that same character. from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jul 29 16:23:15 1996 ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:23:06 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:24:10 -0400 Subject: Re: planing form gouges Jerry -Earlier I explained how to make a wood bodied scraper - I was tofollowup with some drawings and picture that Mike was going to park in thearchives. The drawing and picture still haven't made their way to St. LouisYet - But it could happen Wayne from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Jul 29 16:26:42 1996 ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:26:41 -0500 test-header: [TSmithwick@aol.com] rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:28:18 -0400 Subject: Ultimate fly rod? What follows is a computer design for a 7 foot, 3 inch ,4 weight rod byBillFink It is designed to be a 1 peice rod with no ferrule, It is also a 5 striprod. The dimensions given are the individual strip measurements, so youdon'thave to do the usual odd calculation for a pentagon rod.. What Bill did hereis take his favorite design, the Garrison 204E, and make a 5 strip rod withthe same stress curve. Of course, this means a somewhat heavier crosssection. The rod does not feel like a Garrison, being much crisper. Frankly,when I first flexed it last winter, I thought it was a 6 weight. I fished ita little last month, however, and it did not feel underlined with the 4weight, and also handled a 5 weight well. The rod is a very impressivecaster, throwing smooth, tight loops for long distances with little effort.It must protect tippets OK too, because Bill thinks 6X is anchor chain. Is itthe ultimate rod? Well, I suppose thats up to the beholder, but Bill hasbeenbuilding rods for 30 years in search of the elusive ultimate. He says hedoesnot know how to improve this one.0 - .03055 - .03910 - .05015 - .05920 - .06625 - .07330 - .08035 - .08640 - .09245 - .09850 - .10555 - .11160 - .11765 - .12470 - .13075 - .141Balance - .151Bill was much taken with Chris's presentation at the Catskill gatheringlastyear. After thirty years of cursing nodes, he liked the "just say no"approach, and built this one nodeless.TomSmithwick from rmoon@dns.ida.net Mon Jul 29 17:00:07 1996 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA17695 for ;Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:00:05 - 0500test-header: [rmoon@dns.ida.net] Subject: Re: Hexrod writings WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Bob B -I spent a few hours this weekend pulling together the notes that I havemade about Mr. Garrison's math - it is about 9 pages so far - Would youlikea copy ?? If there is interest I'll post to list but I don't want to justwaste space.I assume the (FFF) means that you are an active member of theFederation- Are you planning to be in GR in '97'? WayneWayne:I'd be very interested to see your notes on Garrison's math.Ralph Moon from cbogart@ibm.net Mon Jul 29 17:25:18 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA18413 for; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:25:16 -0500test-header: [cbogart@ibm.net] head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id SAA22435; Mon, 29 Jul1996 18:24:29 -0400 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Ultimate fly rod? Tom I have stopped by and seen and flexed Bill's Wonder Rod. It isindeed impressive. I was looking forward to casting it at Roscoe. Billwas concerned that it would be a tipet breaker - but looks like it isn'tand he can use his famous ants to get those NJ trout. Chris from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jul 29 17:54:12 1996 ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:54:07 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:55:45 -0400 Subject: An Idea My mother taught Home Econ and one the the interesting things that shehad was used for illustrating interior design. It was a book with flip intransparenceys on three sides . First you would chose a room and then youcould flip in different wall colors from one side and different floor colors from another side and different ceiling colors from another.WELL - a similar approach could be used in rod design - divide a flyrod curve into three sections and as the design book did - you could flip indifferent tip ideas different mid ideas and different butt ideas. Just thinka fast tip with a parabolic mid with a swelled butt from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jul 29 18:11:48 1996 ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:11:45 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:12:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Ultimate fly rod? Tom -I know that there have been several attempts at creating a conversionmethodology - from 5 to 6 and versa vice. But for us avid 'hexheads' isthereany one that you or Bill feel has been successful under all conditions? Wayne from jfoster@gte.net Mon Jul 29 18:20:33 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20467 for; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:20:31 -0500test-header: [jfoster@gte.net] SMTP(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA093152388; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:19:48 - 0500 Subject: Re: Hexrod writings Yes Wayne, post it! Or at least send it to me and I'll put it in the archive's , which I'll do anyway.thanx.jwf from jfoster@gte.net Mon Jul 29 18:25:03 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20653 for; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:25:02 -0500test-header: [jfoster@gte.net] SMTP(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA099792659; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:24:19 - 0500 Subject: Re: planing form gouges WayneI also have a scanner at home, in case you'd like to snail mail me a copy of the scraper.jwf from jfoster@gte.net Mon Jul 29 18:29:45 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20909 for; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:29:44 -0500test-header: [jfoster@gte.net] SMTP(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA107512941; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:29:01 - 0500 Subject: Re: An Idea Wayne I was trying to head that way with the excel version , I think its a great idea, it's just kind of hard to impliment, code wise, that is. from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Jul 29 19:47:17 1996 ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:47:16 -0500 test-header: [TSmithwick@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 20:48:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Ultimate fly rod? Wayne asks:" I know that there have been several attempts at creating a conversionmethodology - from 5 to 6 and versa vice. But for us avid 'hexheads' isthereany one that you or Bill feel has been successful under all conditions?" Wayne - Designing a 5 strip rod that meets the stress parameters andfeelsright to the caster with the designed line is a difficult task. Personally, Ido not think any conversion factor will ever work across the board for alltypes of rod designs. If you simply mathmatically convert a 6 to a 5 (equalcross sectional area ) you will have a slightly stiffer rod, but if the 6 wason the edge of stress limits, the 5 will be over the limits. If you do whatBill did and equalize stress, you run the risk of having a rod so stiff thatyou will want to use a heavier line. That will probably put you right backinstress trouble. I haven't had time to do a lot of examples, but in myopinion rods that are "parabolic" in nature like the Para 15 are the bestcandidates for conversion. They are low enough in stress that the increasedue to the conversion will probably not be harmful. I need to do a lot morework before I come to any solid conclusions. In the meantime I recommendcaution to anyone who would design a 5 strip. - Tom Smithwick from trico@qnet.com Mon Jul 29 23:17:33 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA29330 for; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 23:17:31 -0500test-header: [trico@qnet.com] Subject: Re: Comments??? Thank you for providing this information in a very sensible way.You did ask for comments, and I hope these help. the following should be Line = 120/437 = .275 oz tip impact factor would then be determined as follows: Line = 120/347 = .275 ozTip Top = 8/437 = .018 oz_____Total = .293 ozFactor x4_____Tip Impact 1.172 oz I think it is a good idea to continue with units as you had previouslypresented. The following would be "tip (1.172 oz * 0 inches) = 0.00 inchounces" etc. tip (1.172 x 0) = 0.005" (1.172 x 5 = 5.86010" (1.172 x 10) = 11.720.Thanks again, Mac from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Jul 30 09:03:12 1996 ; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:03:11 -0500 test-header: [WayneCatt@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:01:35 -0400 Subject: Grayrock ' 97' - Question for the Group??? Chris & I were writing that a interesting demo (perhaps slide show)would be to have Bill Ballan do a talk on reelmaking - in talking with Billhe is considering coming to Grayrock '97' to be part of the activities -Septis out (he's doing the west) - his reel has been chosen as the official "OneFly" so he is going to attend that and do the FTD show before he returnsLooking for comments about the demo ???? Wayne from lostrivr@im4u.net Tue Jul 30 09:41:03 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA15273 for; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:41:00 -0500 test-header: [lostrivr@im4u.net] quark.im4u.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA07577 for; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:32:59 -0400 Subject: _The Planing Form_ I just want to take a moment and let everyone know that I justreceived a subscription request from Ron Barch and _The Planing Form_ I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome Ron to the list. We nowhave the potential for an ever greater sharing of rodmaking information.A potential that if realized could result in a synergy that wouldbenefit all rodmakers. Welcome Ron, we all look foward to the opportunity of further sharingof information, and general rodmaking BS'ing between the RODMAKERS listand _The Planing Form_ Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com Tue Jul 30 10:09:01 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16489 for; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:08:57 -0500test-header: [rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com] (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA275919219; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 08:06:59 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: winston rods There is a fly fishing show on local TV here in Seattle called fly fishing the nothwest and this weekends eppisode was in montana on the ruby river in may catching 12' to 24' brown trout with Bud Lilly. Part of the show was a visit to the Winston Rod company for a demonstration how their master rod maker makes bamboo fly rods. He used and interesting device to split all of the strips and one time, it was a piece of what looked like 1 1/2" pipe with what looked like 12+ fins welded to it. The pipe protruded about 6" past the fins to break out the diaphrams ahead of the fins. He drove it into the but end of the culm and kept driving it through resulting in what looked like over 12 strips split out at one time, I also noticed that there was no drying split in the culm. He then graded the strips to make the rod eliminating the ones with obvious defects and then milled the strips in one pass through his small milling machine to the final taper. He glued them up and hung them in a heated closet for one week and then they were put away to age for one year before they were made into rods. He said they were all custom ordered rods and the customers had to wait one year to get their rods. He didn"t explain why the rods had to be aged in the glued up state for one year and i was wondering if anybody had ever heard of anything like this and why it would be necessary to do that. He put on all the guides before he varnished the rod. Patrick from bconner@cybercom.net Tue Jul 30 10:22:39 1996 ; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:22:36 -0500test-header: [bconner@cybercom.net] LAA06675 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 11:21:52-0400 Subject: Welcome aboard Ron! Ron! So you finally made it here. Good-oh! (as they say) I've been prettyquiet here for a while, but that may change soon. Have fun! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Jul 30 10:51:56 1996 ; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:51:54 -0500 test-header: [TSmithwick@aol.com] rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 11:52:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Ultimate rod ? Just an addendum to my reply to Wayne yesterday on the pitfalls ofdesigning5 strip rods. I should mention that the 4 strip rod is just the opposite.It's next to impossible to get into stress trouble in designing a 4. Thecharacter of the rods is very different, also. While you can build any typeof rod you want by modifying the taper, The four is naturally slowerswinging, while the 5 wants to be crisp. Bill Fink tends to fish dry flies inclose and likes the fast action of the 5, I have a slower stroke and like tofish at a distance. I prefer the 4 strip action. Because of the low stresslevels in the 4, I think they are good candidates for hollow building. Thosebuilders who are pursuing such schemes are on the right track, in myopinion.While I love to experiment, let me also say that I think Garrison was right,the hex offers the best balance between stress levels, casting feel, andeaseof construction. Tom Smithwick from JCZIMNY@dol.net Tue Jul 30 11:29:14 1996 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA20524 for ;Tue, 30 Jul 1996 11:29:13 - 0500test-header: [JCZIMNY@dol.net] Subject: Re: winston rods Dear Patrick et al, Krieder makes a reference to "hanging" a blank as long as possible after gluing in order for the glue to cure and also in order that all of the moisture introduced by the glue be eliminated. I sure would like to ask them about that. Good question.John from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Tue Jul 30 14:13:32 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA28583 for; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:13:31 -0500test-header: [bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU] NAA00736; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 13:12:29 -0600 Subject: Planing Tolerences? Having just finished my first rod, I am begining to have questions as tothe allowable tolerences when planing a strip. I seem to be able to get towithin .001 on the enamel side of the triangle but the other 2 sides sometimes variedup to afew thousandths. I was thinking it was just from newbie planing but havenoticed posts of Payne rods sometimes varied even more on some of the flats. My question to the group is there an acceptable tolerence when measuringall three flats of a strip? I am sure Wayne would say .001 but I would like tohere fromothers as to what they feel is acceptable. Newbie with lots of questions,Jim Fillpot from rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com Tue Jul 30 15:17:20 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA01945 for; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:17:17 -0500test-header: [rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com] (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA101217704; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 13:15:04 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: chapter two winston rods Another thing that i noticed and could'nt believe was that he ground off all the nodes on the culm with a disc sander, he wasn't to careful and seemed to eat up power fibers, before he split the culm. He didn't do any straightening and i assumed it was because with a power miller cutting both bevels at one time, the milling took care of the little bit of the diaphram that was left after splitting out the strips. What surprised me the most was either the milling machine was very accurate or he didn't really care what the dimensions were because he didn't mic anything.He didn't taper the feet of the guides and he used a hand cranked winder to wind the wraps on. Patrich from rmoon@dns.ida.net Tue Jul 30 17:11:12 1996 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA07091 for ;Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:11:11 - 0500test-header: [rmoon@dns.ida.net] Subject: Re: chapter two winston rods Patrick Coffey wrote: Another thing that i noticed and could'nt believe was that he ground offall the nodes on the culm with a disc sander, he wasn't to careful andseemed to eat up power fibers, before he split the culm. He didn't do anystraightening and i assumed it was because with a power miller cuttingboth bevels at one time, the milling took care of the little bit of thediaphram that was left after splitting out the strips. What surprised methe most was either the milling machine was very accurate or he didn'treally care what the dimensions were because he didn't mic anything.Hedidn't taper the feet of the guides and he used a hand cranked winder towind the wraps on. PatrichPatrick: Now, perhaps, you can see why a good craftsman will outdo production standards every time. Ralph from hadn@chevron.com Tue Jul 30 19:39:06 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA12372 for; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 19:39:04 -0500test-header: [hadn@chevron.com] (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:38:16 -0700 Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:38:16 -0700 Subject: Bamboo Breakage 4.0.838.14Encoding: 17 TEXT It's finally happened. The first instance of a bamboorod that I made broke. A bamboo spinning rod I made for my mother broke.My son was using it with a spinner, and the spinnergot hung up on the bottom. He tried to unsnag thespinner by yanking back on the rod. He did thisseveral times, and CRACK! The top spline broke about an inch below the ferrule. The other five show no sign of breaking. It looks like I can repairit by wrapping it with thread and Flex Coating it. The advice is right. Never yank back on a bamboorod. Pull on the line. Darryl Hayashida from wishbone@headwaters.com Tue Jul 30 20:20:29 1996 ; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:20:22 -0500test-header: [wishbone@headwaters.com] ns1.bellglobal.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id VAA29442 for; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 21:16:55 -0400 (5.65/1.1.8.2/12Aug95-0226PM) Comments: Authenticated sender is Subject: Re: Bamboo Breakage Priority: normal Darryl: You raise a good point, in that when fibreglass rods were all the rage, it was pretty easy to just yank back on it without worrying about breakage. This is due to the fact that fibreglass is a very inefficient material relatively speaking, the forces applied to it are absorbed more easily and the glass does not do the "work" at the end of the rod that was applied to it at the butt, therefore little breakage. Because of this, I think it important that we do educate people, especially our customers, on how to fish a rod, no matter what the material it is made of. Even most people do not really know how to join a rod at the ferrule to ensure proper joining, yet not so tight to have it possibly stick so that unjoining is difficult. Some people do become offended when these things are pointed out, however, it also can be a good marketing thing to provide this information to customers, they are more satisfied that you do know what you are doing and that you care about your product, Regards,Ian ScottWishbone Custom Rods wishbone@headwaters.comhttp://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone ********************************************************************************************* "The butterfly counts not months but moments,and has time enough." Rabindranath TagoreFireflies, 1928 from lblan@oeonline.com Tue Jul 30 21:39:39 1996 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA18678 for ;Tue, 30 Jul 1996 21:39:30 - 0500test-header: [lblan@oeonline.com] (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0ulR2H-0003Q1C; Tue, 30 Jul 96 22:29 EDT Subject: Re: Grayrock ' 97' - Question for the Group??? Sounds great!Larry Blan ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com Subject: Grayrock ' 97' - Question for the Group???Date: Tuesday, July 30, 1996 10:01 AM Chris & I were writing that a interesting demo (perhaps slide show)would be to have Bill Ballan do a talk on reelmaking - in talking withBillhe is considering coming to Grayrock '97' to be part of the activities -Septis out (he's doing the west) - his reel has been chosen as the official"OneFly" so he is going to attend that and do the FTD show before he returnsLooking for comments about the demo ???? from TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org Wed Jul 31 06:04:43 1996 GAA00376 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 06:04:41-0500test-header: [TOM@sp1.hitchcock.org] mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA09840 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 07:03:59 -0400 Wed, 31 Jul 96 6:39:02 EST5EDT EST5EDT Wed, 31 Jul 96 6:38:39 EST5EDT Subject: Re: Bamboo Breakage/FinishesPriority: normal Darryl, It's finally happened. The first instance of a bamboorod that I made broke.You have my deepest sympathies.... The advice is right. Never yank back on a bamboorod. Pull on the line.Sound ADVICE!!!Broke a tip of my Heddon that way, fitted ferrules on the new replacement tips last night. The finish responses have slowed, I'll give it a few more days, then I will compile the results and submit them. Thanks to all who already responded, it was just what I was looking for. Tom Ausfeld (Tom@sp1.hitchcock.org)Newbury, Vermont Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.- Henry Lawson from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Wed Jul 31 08:12:42 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA03509 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:12:41 -0500test-header: [freedmar@pilot.msu.edu] Subject: Re: Planing Tolerences? Fillpot" at Jul 30, 96 01:12:29 pm Jim Fillpot wrote: My question to the group is there an acceptable tolerence whenmeasuringall three flats of a strip? I am sure Wayne would say .001 but I would like tohere fromothers as to what they feel is acceptable. Jim; I also am a neophyte, but perhaps can contribute something to yourquestion. The dimensions are given in thousandths of an inch, and this is,itturns out, a reasonable "target". That is, on my first rod I managed to getwithin, say, .003 on the tips and, well, .005 on the butt. That I did somanage suggests to me that it is wholly possible to get them spot on--evenperhaps if I can't quite (yet)--but I take that to indicate that I shouldshoot for.001, get as close as I reasonably can, and be happy with theresults.In this olympic moment, you might say that the glory (satisfaction) ofcraftsmanship is in the struggle not the victory.And besides Wayne wouldn't expect more (or less) of us than he thoughtwecould accomplish--and that may be the highwater mark of a first-rateteacher. Mark Freed(freedmar@pilot.msu.edu) from rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com Wed Jul 31 08:45:54 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04792 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:45:52 -0500test-header: [rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com] (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA229550641; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 06:44:02 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: taper for bamboo spinning rod I have some left over bamboo strips and am wondering if anybody out there has a good set of tapers for a bamboo spinning rod. They are not a matched set but then again i dont think it's all that critical for a spinning rod to have matched set of splines. Patrick from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Wed Jul 31 09:48:37 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA08040 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 09:48:36 -0500test-header: [michael@wupsych.wustl.edu] CDT Subject: Re: Planing Tolerences? Jim seez... Having just finished my first rod, I am begining to have questions as tothe allowable tolerences when planing a strip. I seem to be able to get to within .001 on the enamel side of the triangle but the other 2 sides sometimes varied up to a few thousandths. Jim, if I am reading the above correctly, you are taking a finishedspline and measuring from each flat to the opposing apex? In doingso you would expect the enamel-side measurement to be slighly largerthan the other two, due to the curvature of the culm. The other twomeasurements, in a perfect world, would be slightly less and equal. :-) Which of course bring up another question for the list... When setting your final forms, do you intentionally set the formsslightly larger than your target finished dimensions??? If so, byhow much? If you were shooting for a final dimension of say .030at what dimension would you set your forms??? Mike - always slightly in excess - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from khube@benmeadows.com Wed Jul 31 11:21:39 1996 test-header: [khube@benmeadows.com] ESMTP id MAA00686 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 199612:19:38 -0400 (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA26119 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 12:19:35 - 0400 Subject: More Oven Stuff Need a little help !! I did the initial run-up on a Neunemann-style heatgun oven last night.....always a great idea to do HOT STUFF on a warmGeorgia night ! I used an old Black & Decker gun that has the specificationplate missing; so, I don't know the wattage. I was able to bring thetemperature up to about 210 deg F in ten minutes with a good distribution from top to bottom. That was about it and there seemed to be no morepowerin the gun. Admittedly, I had not put the insulation wrap on, but I'll neverget the additional 150 deg I need for the task at hand. I have looked for one of the Bosch 2000 watt guns that Frank Neunemannusedin his setup, but no luck. Has anyone had any recent experience at gettingup to a stable 350 deg with the gun-type unit ?? If so, what brand andmodelgun was used ? Another point............the inner tube in the oven is 3-in diameter and theouter tube is 5-in diameter.With the 3-in tube as the outlet tube, there is precious little room the getthe nozzle of the heat gun in place without getting in a spot that willallow the exhaust from the 3-in tube to melt the gun case. Has anyoneworkedout a clean way to work around this problem ? I know that Neunemann'sdrawing shows the gun sitting straight up and a deflector plate keepingtheexhaust at bay, but I don't seem to have that kind of room. Maybe the gunnozzle is different among gun types. Thanks fro any input. Karl HubeMarietta, Georgia from khube@benmeadows.com Wed Jul 31 11:23:36 1996 test-header: [khube@benmeadows.com] ESMTP id MAA00911 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 199612:22:46 -0400 (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA28283 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 12:22:44 - 0400 Subject: Banty Guide Spacing A few weeks back, the dimensions of the "Banty" 4'-4" rod were presentedbyMark Brown from up in Quebec. I have the splines for a one-piece versionready for the oven. Does anyone have the guide spacing recommended forthislittle unit ? Thanks......... Karl HubeMarietta, Georgia from JCZIMNY@dol.net Wed Jul 31 12:54:38 1996 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA19242 for ;Wed, 31 Jul 1996 12:54:37 - 0500test-header: [JCZIMNY@dol.net] Subject: Re: More Oven Stuff Karl,Any dealer that sells Black and Decker can get you a Bosch heat gun. Tryand industrial supply. Stay away from the Milwalkee.John from khube@benmeadows.com Wed Jul 31 13:36:26 1996 NAA21762 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 13:36:24-0500test-header: [khube@benmeadows.com] OAA23047 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 14:35:34 (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA28873 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 14:35:32 - 0400 Subject: Re: More Oven Stuff Karl,Any dealer that sells Black and Decker can get you a Bosch heat gun. Tryand industrial supply. Stay away from the Milwalkee.John==========================================================================John...............Thanks for the timely warning as I was about to hit HomeDepot for a variable setting Milwaukee gun !!! I was uneasy about it as thefit and finish of the gun did not look too great. Karl from rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com Wed Jul 31 13:49:25 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA22277 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 13:49:24 -0500test-header: [rme257@kgv1.bems.boeing.com] (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA020358855; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:47:35 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: heat gun International Tool Corporation 1-800-338-3384 has a Bosch model 1942in catologue #23 page 41 for $82.00. It say air intake regulator allows variable temperature adjustment-insulated nozzel provides cool exterior temperature-padded,adjustable stand that can be positioned for any work angle. It does not say what the wattage is , I found it looking for a heat gun for myself but i am not sure how powerful we need for the air oven. Patrick from crocm@netaxis.com Wed Jul 31 14:15:09 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA23496 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 14:15:07 -0500test-header: [crocm@netaxis.com] PAA03945 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:16:02 Subject: Re: taper for bamboo spinning rod At 06:44 AM 7/31/96 -0700, you wrote:I have some left over bamboo strips and am wondering if anybody outthere has a good set of tapers for a bamboo spinning rod. They are not a matched set but then again i don't think it's all that critical for a spinning rod to have matched set of splines. Patrick, The final coat of varnish is drying on a 2 piece 5 ft Ultra-light spinningrod that I built for the same reason, although I did match the splines andstagger the nodes. I wanted a parabolic action so I user a linear taper of.003"/inch. The tip is .070, and the butt end .250, I think I designed it I matched it up with a Browning M05 ultra-lite with 4 lb test and didsometest casting before varnish, it cast like a little rocket. It was a funproject. Last weekend I took the blank down to the local "Bait & Tackle Store" tobuythe guides, within 10 minutes there were at least 6 guys going crazy overthe blank. They haven't seen bamboo in 20 years. I may even sell a couplethough pricing has to be a problem. Ed Muraskihttp://www.netaxis.com/~crocm from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Wed Jul 31 15:08:35 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA26008 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:08:34 -0500test-header: [michael@wupsych.wustl.edu] CDT Subject: Re: More Oven Stuff Karl gets 'heated' up about... :-) Need a little help !! I did the initial run-up on a Neunemann-style heatgun oven last night.....always a great idea to do HOT STUFF on a warmGeorgia night ! I used an old Black & Decker gun that has the specificationplate missing; so, I don't know the wattage. I was able to bring thetemperature up to about 210 deg F in ten minutes with a gooddistribution from top to bottom. That was about it and there seemed to be no morepowerin the gun. Admittedly, I had not put the insulation wrap on, but I'll neverget the additional 150 deg I need for the task at hand. Don't be so sure Karl. One thing I found that makes a HUGE differenceis making sure the _bottom_ of the 5" tube is sealed/insulated. Byhaving the bottom of the tube open vs. sitting on a piece of fiberglassinsulation, I got easily over a 100deg temperature change. If fact itwas so dramatic, I found it a very effective way to control thetemperature inside the oven. By leaving a small opening in theinsulation that covers the bottom the temperature can be lowered...thelarger the opening, the more cool air is pulled into the bottom, thelower the temperature. I have looked for one of the Bosch 2000 watt guns that Frank Neunemannusedin his setup, but no luck. Has anyone had any recent experience at gettingup to a stable 350 deg with the gun-type unit ?? If so, what brand andmodelgun was used ? If you have W.W. Grainger close by, they have a real nice industrialmodel for about $60.00 - sounds very similar to the Bosch model Patrickwas just mentioning. One of the things I think really helps with thistype of oven is to have a gun that will push a lot of air. The unit Igot from Grainger pushes 23CFM as compared to 7-10CFM I've seen on alot of other units. Another point............the inner tube in the oven is 3-in diameter and theouter tube is 5-in diameter.With the 3-in tube as the outlet tube, there is precious little room thegetthe nozzle of the heat gun in place without getting in a spot that willallow the exhaust from the 3-in tube to melt the gun case. Has anyoneworkedout a clean way to work around this problem ? I know that Neunemann'sdrawing shows the gun sitting straight up and a deflector plate keepingtheexhaust at bay, but I don't seem to have that kind of room. Maybe the gunnozzle is different among gun types. I just use a piece of aluminium foil shaped around the inner tube todeflect the hot exhaust away from the heat gun. Mike - full of 'hot air' - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Jul 31 15:37:42 1996 ; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:37:40 -0500 test-header: [TSmithwick@aol.com] rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 16:38:43 -0400 Subject: Another Taper This is from an Orvis 6 1/2 foot 5 weight three piece rod. It was recentlyaquired by a friend. The rod has a very pleasant, moderate action. I don'tknow the model number, but the serial number indicates it was built in1952.The sections are 26 1/2 inches long, so it makes a nice 3 piece pack rod.Tolerances and general craftsmanship are very good.0 - .0585 - .07210 - .08015 - .09220 - .11825 - .13230 - .14635 - .16540 - .18045 - .19550 - .21055 - .23060 - .24565 - .27070 - .285 ( est.)75 - .290 ( est. )78 - .300 ( est. ) from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Wed Jul 31 16:40:50 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01429 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 16:40:48 -0500test-header: [mcdowellc@lanecc.edu] (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA111279206; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 14:40:06 -0700 Subject: Color Preserver I'm currently using Gudebrod color preserver. I apply two coats allowing plenty of dry time in between. I'm of the opinion that subsequent coats of the preserver simply melt the prior coat and I'm not convinced that I'm actually getting two coats, even though the label directions imply that you can brush on several coats. That aside, when I finish with a dip of spar varnish and the drying process is finished I sometimes get somedark/light variation on some of the wraps. It doesn't necessarily look bad, it's just not a consistent color throughout the wrap. What other types of color preservers do some of you use? What kind of results to you get? Am I not using enough preserver? Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from jfoster@gte.net Wed Jul 31 18:41:56 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA07115 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:41:55 -0500test-header: [jfoster@gte.net] SMTP(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA019676472; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:41:12 - 0500 Subject: Re: Planing Tolerences? mike .016jwf from lsgorney@rs01.kings.edu Wed Jul 31 19:13:44 1996 wugate.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA07886 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 19:13:31 -0500test-header: [lsgorney@rs01.kings.edu] Subject: Re: Color Preserver I've had good luck with Dale Clemens' product called Brilliance as acolor preserver for wraps. It rolls on smoothly, dries quickly, preservesthe wraps, and slightly darkens the color. Just my 2 cents . . . .Len Gorney lsgorney@rs01.kings.eduhttp://www.kings.edu/~lsgorney/index.htm from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Jul 31 20:45:32 1996 ; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 20:45:29 -0500 test-header: [Fallcreek9@aol.com] rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 21:44:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Color Preserver In a message dated 96-07-31 17:46:23 EDT, you write: What other types of color preservers do some of you use? What kind of results to you get? Am Inot using enough preserver? Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu Hello Mac:I have been using Clemens "Brilliance" Color Sealant for my preserverneeds.It is awhite, thick material that dries clear. I've often thought that it isthinned Elmers Glue, but probably it is not. Clemens counsels thinning 50/50 with water forthefirst 2 coats and then 100% thereafter. I generally put on at least 4 coatsand generally have had very satisfactory results - time consuming, tho. Myguess is that you are not using enough preserver. Perhaps thinning it a bit for a couple of coats wouldhelpit wet out the wraps. Have also had spates of the same problem in the past, which wasattributed totwo conditions. One: not sufficient thinning and; two: wrapping the silktoooo tight, thothese are just guesses. Different threads seem to react differently withanyparticularfinish. For example, Gudebrod nylon wrapping thread goes completelytranslucent do. Like so many facets of the art, one has to dabble until a desireablesituation evolves. Hope this $ .02 helps. Regards,RTyree from wishbone@headwaters.com Wed Jul 31 21:03:58 1996 ; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 21:03:56 -0500test-header: [wishbone@headwaters.com] ns1.bellglobal.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id WAA22261 for; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 22:00:16 -0400 (5.65/1.1.8.2/12Aug95-0226PM) Comments: Authenticated sender is Subject: Re: Color Preserver Priority: normal I have had similar problems with Brilliance as well....the Dale Clemens product. It does build up very well, and the final finish does adhere well to it, but I have noticed the same slight color variations. A newer product that I have not had the same problems with is U40 Color Lock. It is already thinned out, unlike the Brilliance which requires a 1:1 mix of water and preserver for the first couple of coats, then the thick unmixed preserver for a final coat. Naturally with the color lock you do not get the same build up as you do with the Clemens Brilliance, which is great if you ever do custom thread work as it helps to fill in the and level off the thread work prior to applying your finish to the thread. However, I do find that the U40 Color Lock does allow more of a consistent color throughout the thread wrap. Ian ScottWishbone Custom Rods wishbone@headwaters.comhttp://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone ********************************************************************************************* "The butterfly counts not months but moments,and has time enough." Rabindranath TagoreFireflies, 1928 from JCZIMNY@dol.net Wed Jul 31 21:30:23 1996 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA11343 for ;Wed, 31 Jul 1996 21:30:21 - 0500test-header: [JCZIMNY@dol.net] Subject: Re: Color Preserver Len,Richard et al I was wondering about the compatibility of Brilliance with spar varnish.Is anyone having any film adhesion problems with the two coating used in conjunction? John