from allen@chem.eng.usyd.edu.au Tue Oct 1 03:19:29 1996 Subject: rod sizes I only joined this group recently, out of curiosity more than anything, asmy knowledge of split cane rod construction is pretty limited.But as you would expect coming from australia some of the methods and termsused in the states obviously vary considerably to some of those used downhere but I couldnt help noticing a reference in one posting, it was about a6ft 2wt rod, it may just be a terminological difference but down here thisoutfit under the normal sizing methods I know, would be able to handle say0.5- 1 kilo (1-2 pound) line, and its length would make it unsuitable forfly. Am I correct and if so what would be a typical target species for a rodthis size. or am I just being dumb and ignorant.Any way it would be interesting to hear from any one regarding this as its asize rod that I have never heard of and it has me quite intrigued . Thanks Allen from caneman@clnk.com Tue Oct 1 08:37:42 1996 (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA50 Organization: Spring Valley Subject: Re: rod sizes allen glover wrote: I only joined this group recently, out of curiosity more than anything, asmy knowledge of split cane rod construction is pretty limited.But as you would expect coming from australia some of the methods and termsused in the states obviously vary considerably to some of those used downhere but I couldnt help noticing a reference in one posting, it was about a6ft 2wt rod, it may just be a terminological difference but down here thisoutfit under the normal sizing methods I know, would be able to handle say0.5- 1 kilo (1-2 pound) line, and its length would make it unsuitable forfly. Am I correct and if so what would be a typical target species for a rodthis size. or am I just being dumb and ignorant.Any way it would be interesting to hear from any one regarding this as its asize rod that I have never heard of and it has me quite intrigued . Thanks AllenAllen,Actually the rod is a fly rod, It was a 6' 2 piece two tip rodbuilt for #2 Double Taper fly line.No such thing as dumb or ingorant on this listserv. The onlystupid question is the one that goes un-asked. Thanks,Bob Nunley from hadn@chevron.com Tue Oct 1 09:38:10 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Tue, 1 Oct 1996 07:37:22 -0700 Tue, 1 Oct 1996 07:37:22 -0700 Subject: RE: rod sizes Encoding: 42 TEXT allen glover wrote: I only joined this group recently, out of curiosity more than anything, asmy knowledge of split cane rod construction is pretty limited.But as you would expect coming from australia some of the methods andtermsused in the states obviously vary considerably to some of those used downhere but I couldnt help noticing a reference in one posting, it was about a6ft 2wt rod, it may just be a terminological difference but down here thisoutfit under the normal sizing methods I know, would be able to handle say0.5- 1 kilo (1-2 pound) line, and its length would make it unsuitable forfly. Am I correct and if so what would be a typical target species for arodthis size. or am I just being dumb and ignorant.Any way it would be interesting to hear from any one regarding this as itsasize rod that I have never heard of and it has me quite intrigued . Thanks Allen Allen,Actually the rod is a fly rod, It was a 6' 2 piece two tip rodbuilt for #2 Double Taper fly line.No such thing as dumb or ingorant on this listserv. The onlystupid question is the one that goes un-asked. Thanks,Bob Nunley I think perhaps the misunderstanding is even more basic than itfirst appears. Allen seems to be talking about monofilament fishingline not fly line, as I can see no way a fly line can be rated at 1 - 2pounds. What is really confusing though is his comment that a6 ft. rod is too short for fly fishing. This could be an assumption from someone introduced to fly fishing recently, since most graphiterods are around 9 ft nowdays. So Allen, a friendly question, in no way meant to be a flame, Haveyou done any fly fishing at all? Darryl Hayashida from caneman@clnk.com Tue Oct 1 09:54:09 1996 (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA189 Organization: Spring Valley Subject: Re: rod sizes Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn) wrote: allen glover wrote: I only joined this group recently, out of curiosity more than anything, asmy knowledge of split cane rod construction is pretty limited.But as you would expect coming from australia some of the methods andtermsused in the states obviously vary considerably to some of those used downhere but I couldnt help noticing a reference in one posting, it was about a6ft 2wt rod, it may just be a terminological difference but down here thisoutfit under the normal sizing methods I know, would be able to handle say0.5- 1 kilo (1-2 pound) line, and its length would make it unsuitable forfly. Am I correct and if so what would be a typical target species for arodthis size. or am I just being dumb and ignorant.Any way it would be interesting to hear from any one regarding this as itsasize rod that I have never heard of and it has me quite intrigued . Thanks Allen Allen,Actually the rod is a fly rod, It was a 6' 2 piece two tip rodbuilt for #2 Double Taper fly line.No such thing as dumb or ingorant on this listserv. The onlystupid question is the one that goes un-asked. Thanks,Bob Nunley I think perhaps the misunderstanding is even more basic than itfirst appears. Allen seems to be talking about monofilament fishingline not fly line, as I can see no way a fly line can be rated at 1 - 2pounds. What is really confusing though is his comment that a6 ft. rod is too short for fly fishing. This could be an assumption from someone introduced to fly fishing recently, since most graphiterods are around 9 ft nowdays. So Allen, a friendly question, in no way meant to be a flame, Haveyou done any fly fishing at all? Darryl HayashidaAllen, Darryl is absolutely right. The Big Long Cannons that aremanufactured of graphite give a lot of new flyfishers the misconceptionthat a fly rod has to be long. I have a request for cane fly rod in a4'6" one weight. Here we go with the calculator and graph paper again.I don't normally build outside of my regular line, but this one is achallenge. RL "Bob" Nunley, RodmakerSpring Valley Rod Company http://www.clnk.com/bob/home.htm Custom Cane Fly Rods for the Discriminating AnglerShop 918-647-9237 Home 918-647-3549 from 0001196812@mcimail.com Tue Oct 1 11:10:05 1996 1 Oct 96 16:09 WET Subject: Re: SOUTHERN BOYS GET TOGETHER??? Sounds too good to be true. Is this April Fool's Day already?I don't understand why you would want to let the media tell theworld about a secret fishing hole. You've already got the bestcoverage in the world right here on the Rodmakers list withoutthem. Pretty soon all these fish will be gone, and the landownerwon't be so friendly because he's too busy chasing poachers offhis property. Just my 2 cents ............. LOU from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Tue Oct 1 11:27:07 1996 Subject: RE: rod sizes On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn) wrote: allen glover wrote: I only joined this group recently, out of curiosity more than anything, asmy knowledge of split cane rod construction is pretty limited.But as you would expect coming from australia some of the methods andtermsused in the states obviously vary considerably to some of those used downhere but I couldnt help noticing a reference in one posting, it was about a6ft 2wt rod, it may just be a terminological difference but down here thisoutfit under the normal sizing methods I know, would be able to handle say0.5- 1 kilo (1-2 pound) line, and its length would make it unsuitable forfly. Am I correct and if so what would be a typical target species for arodthis size. or am I just being dumb and ignorant.Any way it would be interesting to hear from any one regarding this as itsasize rod that I have never heard of and it has me quite intrigued . Thanks Allen Allen,Actually the rod is a fly rod, It was a 6' 2 piece two tip rodbuilt for #2 Double Taper fly line.No such thing as dumb or ingorant on this listserv. The onlystupid question is the one that goes un-asked. Thanks,Bob Nunley I think perhaps the misunderstanding is even more basic than itfirst appears. Allen seems to be talking about monofilament fishingline not fly line, as I can see no way a fly line can be rated at 1 - 2pounds. What is really confusing though is his comment that a6 ft. rod is too short for fly fishing. This could be an assumption from someone introduced to fly fishing recently, since most graphiterods are around 9 ft nowdays. So Allen, a friendly question, in no way meant to be a flame, Haveyou done any fly fishing at all? Darryl Hayashida What Darryl says re mono line misunderstanding may be correct, but flyrods of the lenght used in the US do seem a lot shorter than here inAustralia and NZ though they are used, their're rare. Most people go withan 8-9 foot rod around the #5-#6 weight range. I don't know why, possiblythe English heritage?I've been around a few guys from the States in NZ who found themselves inall kinds of bother with gear too light for the rivers and wind, we tendto have strong winds and big water here too so possibly that's why.Trouble is, I'm sure you get strong winds and big water there also sothat's prob not the reason after all.After looking at all the tapers I can find, I have to admit I've beenpuzzled as to the scarcity of bigger rods but figured it was due to thecane itself making too heavy a rod in the bigger sizes making the smallerones more favoured.Any takers? Tony from caneman@clnk.com Tue Oct 1 13:27:42 1996 (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA165 Organization: Spring Valley Subject: Re: rod sizes Tony Young wrote: What Darryl says re mono line misunderstanding may be correct, but flyrods of the lenght used in the US do seem a lot shorter than here inAustralia and NZ though they are used, their're rare. Most people go withan 8-9 foot rod around the #5-#6 weight range. I don't know why, possiblythe English heritage?I've been around a few guys from the States in NZ who found themselves inall kinds of bother with gear too light for the rivers and wind, we tendto have strong winds and big water here too so possibly that's why.Trouble is, I'm sure you get strong winds and big water there also sothat's prob not the reason after all.After looking at all the tapers I can find, I have to admit I've beenpuzzled as to the scarcity of bigger rods but figured it was due to thecane itself making too heavy a rod in the bigger sizes making the smallerones more favoured.Any takers? Tony Tony,Actually, we do get bad wind on some pretty big water here. I don't know aboutthe other rodmakers, but I have a line of rods that will punch the line into the windwithout having to be 8 or 9 feet long. Weight, for me, has nothing to do with theshorter rod, they are just what I prefer. Most of the rods I build are less than 7'6".Actually, a great protion of them are under 7'. I have no trouble in the wind with my7' 5wt rod... so I figure why use a cannon when a rifle will do the same job..... but that is just my opinion and I could be wrong... Thanks, Bob Nunley from bruno@vv.cta.com Tue Oct 1 13:32:45 1996 Organization: Fatherhood/Brotherhood Subject: Re: rod sizes Tony Young wrote: After looking at all the tapers I can find, I have to admit I've beenpuzzled as to the scarcity of bigger rods but figured it was due to thecane itself making too heavy a rod in the bigger sizes making the smallerones more favoured.Any takers? Tony Tony, Thats about correct, in terms of current and past bias toward largercane rods.There are however, many fine "big dog" cane rods that have been producedthroughthe years that stack favorably against man-made materials. I own acouple of nine footers that I absolutly love fishing with, and I takethem with me everywhere.Cane rods do however, in terms of popular opinion, excel in the shorterlengths. That is where the main thrust of development has remainedsince the introduction of man-made materials. But again, there ismisconception here as well,because short does not translate directly to lite dainty wands. Shortstout cane is fine on windy days for me, and on big water as well.Lately, my most used fly rod under both conditions has been a little sixfooter I own. It generates tremendous line speedand I can cast as far as I feel the need to with it. However, at theroot of all this,is the undeniable fact that short light-wieght cane rods are thepinnacle of the whole experience of fly fishing for many. They are notonly beautiful to behold and marvelin terms of fine craftsmanship, they can enhance your fishing experiencein many, manyunexpected ways. But at the risk of being presumtuous, I dont think that most of theindividuals you will find on this list bother to much with the tedium oftrying to compete with graphite on a wieght vs. perfomance basis. Mostof us realize that a well balanced fly rod outfit is what makes a rodcomfortable to use all day. I also believe that an once or two isntgoing to make or break my trip anyway, and if I ever get to that point,I'm sure that I will have forgoten the reason why I love fly-fishinganyway. from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Tue Oct 1 14:24:47 1996 Subject: Rod Design by EMail Okay all you MAC-inites, listen up! Fellow listmember Jerry Ballard has taken pity on all the MSDOS deprivedout there, and has written a version of Wayne's HEXROD program that canbe run via EMAIL! Basically you EMAIL an input file of your rod designand the TAPERMAIL program will EMAIL back to you the program output. The address is: taper@wupsych.wustl.edu To start off with, send an email to the above address with the wordHELP in the body of the message. You will receive back a small helpfile that will completely explain how to create your input files, andalso a couple of sample input files to get you going. I will includea sample input file, and a sample of the returned output at the endof this note. Give the program a try, and let us know what you think. Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy ps: Wayne's latest version of his HEXROD program should soon beavailable also, with several new features. Most notable, thecomputerized Deflection Board. Last I talked to Wayne, it'salmost ready to go. But of course, you'll need MSDOS to runit! Sorry MAC-inites! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= EXAMPLE INPUT FILE Here is an example input file that could be mailed to thetaper program. ----------BEGIN----EXAMPLE--#1--------------------------- begin comments This is the Garrison taper used in his example of rod designcomments in his book. length 96 in.action 80 in. linewt 490 grainslinelength 90 ft.linefished 50 ft. pieces 2ferrule 1 117.99 grains interval 5 dimensions0 .0471 .0475 .08110 .10415 .12220 .13625 .15030 .16335 .17540 .18845 .19950 .21355 .22760 .24165 .25470 .26875 .28280 .29685 .29690 .29696 .296end----------END---EXAMPLE---#1------- ---------------------- EXAMPLE OF PROGRAM OUTPUT AS EMAILED BACK TO YOU... TAPERMAIL (son of HEXROD)Initial Equation Formulation: GarrisonProgram Idea and Algorithmns: Wayne Cattanach Input Rod Parameters: from : michael ROD LENGTH : 96.0 inchesACTION LENGTH : 80.0 inchesLINE WEIGHT : 490.0 grainsLINE LENGTH : 90.0 feetLINE FISHED : 50.0 feet TIP IMPACT : 2.5650 ouncesSECTIONS : 2FERRULE 1 : 118.0 grains at 48.0 inches COMMENTS : This is the Garrison taper used in his example of rod designCOMMENTS : in his book. Inch Diam Tip Line Ferrule V&G Cane Stress0.0 0.0470 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.01.0 0.0470 2.6 0.0 0.0 0.01 0.0 207005.65.0 0.0810 12.8 0.1 0.0 0.11 0.1 205035.310.0 0.1040 25.6 0.2 0.0 0.38 0.5 198343.415.0 0.1220 38.5 0.5 0.0 0.80 1.6 189770.720.0 0.1360 51.3 0.8 0.0 1.38 3.5 188980.625.0 0.1500 64.1 1.3 0.0 2.12 6.5 182891.730.0 0.1630 76.9 1.9 0.0 3.02 10.8 178297.235.0 0.1750 89.8 2.5 0.0 4.07 16.7 175772.640.0 0.1880 102.6 3.3 0.0 5.29 24.3 169893.245.0 0.1990 115.4 4.2 0.0 6.65 33.9 169390.948.0 * 0.2074 123.1 4.8 0.0 7.55 40.8 164619.450.0 0.2130 128.2 5.2 2.2 8.18 45.9 163531.255.0 0.2270 141.1 6.3 7.6 9.86 60.4 160447.060.0 0.2410 153.9 7.5 13.0 11.70 78.0 157189.165.0 0.2540 166.7 8.8 18.4 13.70 98.9 155848.870.0 0.2680 179.5 10.2 23.8 15.86 123.6 152782.675.0 0.2820 192.4 11.7 29.2 18.17 152.4 150036.680.0 0.2960 205.2 13.3 34.6 20.64 185.8 147642.785.0 0.2960 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.090.0 0.2960 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.095.0 0.2960 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.096.0 0.2960 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.0 from mrj@seanet.com Tue Oct 1 16:55:42 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Design by EMail I'm a little confused. I have already downloaded a Excel version for the Mac ofHexrod I believe. I haven't used it yet but I can open it up and run it. (I justdon't know exactly what to do with it yet) Is this the same program only youjust don't need to have Excel to run it? In message writes:Okay all you MAC-inites, listen up! Fellow listmember Jerry Ballard has taken pity on all the MSDOS deprivedout there, and has written a version of Wayne's HEXROD program that canbe run via EMAIL! Basically you EMAIL an input file of your rod designand the TAPERMAIL program will EMAIL back to you the program output. The address is: taper@wupsych.wustl.edu To start off with, send an email to the above address with the wordHELP in the body of the message. You will receive back a small helpfile that will completely explain how to create your input files, andalso a couple of sample input files to get you going. I will includea sample input file, and a sample of the returned output at the endof this note. Give the program a try, and let us know what you think. Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy ps: Wayne's latest version of his HEXROD program should soon beavailable also, with several new features. Most notable, thecomputerized Deflection Board. Last I talked to Wayne, it'salmost ready to go. But of course, you'll need MSDOS to runit! Sorry MAC-inites! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= EXAMPLE INPUT FILE Here is an example input file that could be mailed to thetaper program. ----------BEGIN----EXAMPLE--#1--------------------------- begin comments This is the Garrison taper used in his example of rod designcomments in his book. length 96 in.action 80 in. linewt 490 grainslinelength 90 ft.linefished 50 ft. pieces 2ferrule 1 117.99 grains interval 5 dimensions0 .0471 .0475 .08110 .10415 .12220 .13625 .15030 .16335 .17540 .18845 .19950 .21355 .22760 .24165 .25470 .26875 .28280 .29685 .29690 .29696 .296end----------END---EXAMPLE---#1------- ---------------------- EXAMPLE OF PROGRAM OUTPUT AS EMAILED BACK TO YOU... TAPERMAIL (son of HEXROD)Initial Equation Formulation: GarrisonProgram Idea and Algorithmns: Wayne Cattanach Input Rod Parameters: from : michael ROD LENGTH : 96.0 inchesACTION LENGTH : 80.0 inchesLINE WEIGHT : 490.0 grainsLINE LENGTH : 90.0 feetLINE FISHED : 50.0 feet TIP IMPACT : 2.5650 ouncesSECTIONS : 2FERRULE 1 : 118.0 grains at 48.0 inches COMMENTS : This is the Garrison taper used in his example of roddesignCOMMENTS : in his book. Inch Diam Tip Line Ferrule V&G Cane Stress0.0 0.0470 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.01.0 0.0470 2.6 0.0 0.0 0.01 0.0 207005.65.0 0.0810 12.8 0.1 0.0 0.11 0.1 205035.310.0 0.1040 25.6 0.2 0.0 0.38 0.5 198343.415.0 0.1220 38.5 0.5 0.0 0.80 1.6 189770.720.0 0.1360 51.3 0.8 0.0 1.38 3.5 188980.625.0 0.1500 64.1 1.3 0.0 2.12 6.5 182891.730.0 0.1630 76.9 1.9 0.0 3.02 10.8 178297.235.0 0.1750 89.8 2.5 0.0 4.07 16.7 175772.640.0 0.1880 102.6 3.3 0.0 5.29 24.3 169893.245.0 0.1990 115.4 4.2 0.0 6.65 33.9 169390.948.0 * 0.2074 123.1 4.8 0.0 7.55 40.8 164619.450.0 0.2130 128.2 5.2 2.2 8.18 45.9 163531.255.0 0.2270 141.1 6.3 7.6 9.86 60.4 160447.060.0 0.2410 153.9 7.5 13.0 11.70 78.0 157189.165.0 0.2540 166.7 8.8 18.4 13.70 98.9 155848.870.0 0.2680 179.5 10.2 23.8 15.86 123.6 152782.675.0 0.2820 192.4 11.7 29.2 18.17 152.4 150036.680.0 0.2960 205.2 13.3 34.6 20.64 185.8 147642.785.0 0.2960 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.090.0 0.2960 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.095.0 0.2960 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.096.0 0.2960 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.0 Martin Jensen from rcurry@jlc.net Tue Oct 1 17:46:56 1996 Subject: Re: rod sizes Bill Cooper wrote (very astutely):Cane rods do however, in terms of popular opinion, excel in the shorterlengths. That is where the main thrust of development has remainedsince the introduction of man-made materials. But again, there ismisconception here as well,because short does not translate directly to lite dainty wands. Shortstout cane is fine on windy days for me, and on big water as well. Bill, I agree that shorter rods "in terms of public opinion" excel, however,in actual fact, as you know from experience, the benefits of longer fly rodsare numerous. My shortest rod is an 8', but the rods I use most often are 9'and 10'. And soon, DV, I will have a Bogart 9'6" 7wt. ready to fish. But an important element of this subject, which we too often ignore, isencapsulated in your statement "a well balanced fly rod outfit is what makesa rod comfortable to use all day. I also believe that an once or two isntgoing to make or break my trip anyway". Of course, sometimes we need to sacrifice comfort for the demands of thesituation; e.g., fishing saltwater or large salmon flies. Reed from jfoster@gte.net Tue Oct 1 18:16:29 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Design by EMail Martin Yes, it's basically the same program except you get measurements everyin. and built in stress and dimension graphs with the excel vers. If you need to know how to run it drop me a line.. Jerry Foster from allen@chem.eng.usyd.edu.au Tue Oct 1 18:51:18 1996 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 2 Oct 1996 09:50:25 +1000 Subject: regarding rod sizes again To All who replied, Thanks Well I did evoke a response! I just wish our own mail groups were thatactive. There are a few things that I would like to clear up ifpossible, I know that breaking strains in mono do not equate to fly linesizes but I thought I would use breaking strain as a comparison just incase their was a difference in weight classification, a common ground soto speak. That size rod is tiny compared to what we tend to use downhere with 5#- 6# weight 8 to 9 ft being trout standard. it is probably ahang over from our English fishing heritage or the total marketdominance of modern materials as I'm sorry to say cane rod building isvirtually a lost art in this country. Also their has been a big movementin Aust towards saltwater fly with impressive captures being made onrods up to 15# weight so a lot of the fishing press over the past fewyears has been about these large rods (and equally large fish) so thisdoesnt help either.It is interesting to hear that these small rods are used in tightlocations, most of our rivers tend to be either large deep and slow orsmall, overgrown, clear and fast so a rod that will effectively fish theeasily spooked fish in these smaller rivers from the bank as opposed towading would definately have a place in some anglers kits.Fortunatelythese fast flowing streams are the rivers(well the ones I am thinking ofanyway) that tend to produce our larger fish. trout over 1.5 kilos arequite expected on most healthy mountain waters but I'm getting theimpression that this small equipment would be a bit undersized for thisclass of fish, is this so or are their people out their who regularlytake fish like this on gear this size (2#wt). Thanks Allen from allen@chem.eng.usyd.edu.au Tue Oct 1 19:42:20 1996 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:41:31 +1000 Subject: to Darryl Hayashida via rodmakers I tried to send this to darryl personally but I seem to be having mailer problems If any one gets this or something similar could you please just give me a quick reply please Darryl Honest question and the answer is yes I do fly fish but not exclusivelythough, as australia has huge amounts of fishing options readilyavailable to most keen anglers, it is not uncommon to be chasing tunaout on the shelf with a friend one week and casting lures to a cageybrown trout with that same friend the next. so the type of fishing donedepends on the conditions. Most of my fly fishing tends to be done onlakes as seems to be the norm, due to aust conditions our rivers have atendancy to be overgrown so I just find lure fishing our streams aneasier option.Though you will probably find aust anglers who will refute this I findthat the amount of anglers who fly fish exclusively to be very much inthe minority in this country. This is not to say that fly is not usedthat often it is one of the most widely used methods for trout justthat it doesnt suffer from the elitist approach that tends to negativelyaffect fishing in say Europe or Malaysia we just consider it anothervalid form of fishing. talk to you soon Allen from lawdevil@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 1 20:21:14 1996 Subject: Re: to Darryl Hayashida via rodmakers allen glover wrote: Most of my fly fishing tends to be done onlakes as seems to be the norm, due to aust conditions our rivers have atendancy to be overgrown so I just find lure fishing our streams aneasier option.Though you will probably find aust anglers who will refute this I findthat the amount of anglers who fly fish exclusively to be very much inthe minority in this country. Allen This week I must be vacabulary challlenged - first "merkin" and now "aust". Even mydaughter who spent last semester at UNSW couldn't translate for me. What is "aust"? Mike--Mike Ray "...sex, death and fly- fishing;lawdevil@ix.netcom.com the meanings of life and sport;Atlanta, Georgia are we real participants or just observers,404-332-6661 and what kind of difference does it make?"Cashiers, NC John Gierach704-743-5625 from allen@chem.eng.usyd.edu.au Tue Oct 1 20:31:14 1996 Subject: Re: to Darryl Hayashida via rodmakers Allen This week I must be vacabulary challlenged - first "merkin" and now"aust". Even mydaughter who spent last semester at UNSW couldn't translate for me. Whatis "aust"? Mike--Mike Ray "...sex, death and fly- fishing;lawdevil@ix.netcom.com the meanings of life and sport;Atlanta, Georgia are we real participants or just observers,404-332-6661 and what kind of difference does it make?"Cashiers, NC John Gierach704-743-5625 Mike Aust= Australiajust makes for quicker typing Allen from lostrivr@im4u.net Tue Oct 1 21:04:02 1996 Subject: RE: rod sizes At 12:25 AM 10/2/96 +0800, you wrote:On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn) wrote: allen glover wrote: I only joined this group recently, out of curiosity more than anything, asmy knowledge of split cane rod construction is pretty limited.But as you would expect coming from australia some of the methods andtermsused in the states obviously vary considerably to some of those used downhere but I couldnt help noticing a reference in one posting, it wasabout a6ft 2wt rod, it may just be a terminological difference but down here thisoutfit under the normal sizing methods I know, would be able to handle say0.5- 1 kilo (1-2 pound) line, and its length would make it unsuitable forfly. Am I correct and if so what would be a typical target species for arodthis size. or am I just being dumb and ignorant.Any way it would be interesting to hear from any one regarding this as itsasize rod that I have never heard of and it has me quite intrigued . Thanks Allen Allen,Actually the rod is a fly rod, It was a 6' 2 piece two tip rodbuilt for #2 Double Taper fly line.No such thing as dumb or ingorant on this listserv. The onlystupid question is the one that goes un-asked. Thanks,Bob Nunley I think perhaps the misunderstanding is even more basic than itfirst appears. Allen seems to be talking about monofilament fishingline not fly line, as I can see no way a fly line can be rated at 1 - 2pounds. What is really confusing though is his comment that a6 ft. rod is too short for fly fishing. This could be an assumption from someone introduced to fly fishing recently, since most graphiterods are around 9 ft nowdays. So Allen, a friendly question, in no way meant to be a flame, Haveyou done any fly fishing at all? Darryl Hayashida What Darryl says re mono line misunderstanding may be correct, but flyrods of the lenght used in the US do seem a lot shorter than here inAustralia and NZ though they are used, their're rare. Most people go withan 8-9 foot rod around the #5-#6 weight range. I don't know why, possiblythe English heritage?I've been around a few guys from the States in NZ who found themselves inall kinds of bother with gear too light for the rivers and wind, we tendto have strong winds and big water here too so possibly that's why.Trouble is, I'm sure you get strong winds and big water there also sothat's prob not the reason after all.After looking at all the tapers I can find, I have to admit I've beenpuzzled as to the scarcity of bigger rods but figured it was due to thecane itself making too heavy a rod in the bigger sizes making the smallerones more favoured.Any takers? Tony Hi Tony,Concerning tapers for larger rods. The next issue of the PF will havesome tapers for 8 and 9 wt rods. The Gilham cast a country mile or is thata country kilometer. I agree with who ever said balance is what counts notweight. Ron Barch ps Can you find out if Tim Short received a package in the mail from me/ Ifso please let me know via e mail. Thanks from mrj@seanet.com Tue Oct 1 21:33:21 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Design by EMail I have received the help file back and as I look at it, it seems that theferrule wt. needs to be computed into the formula. I'm wondering how you designa rod by knowing the ferrule size first. I thought that it (ferrule size) wouldbe a property of the rod design, not part of the parameters. Martin Jensen from caneman@clnk.com Tue Oct 1 23:06:49 1996 (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA128 Organization: Spring Valley Subject: Re: regarding rod sizes again allen glover wrote: To All who replied, Thanks Well I did evoke a response! I just wish our own mail groups were thatactive. There are a few things that I would like to clear up ifpossible, I know that breaking strains in mono do not equate to fly linesizes but I thought I would use breaking strain as a comparison just incase their was a difference in weight classification, a common ground soto speak. That size rod is tiny compared to what we tend to use downhere with 5#- 6# weight 8 to 9 ft being trout standard. it is probably ahang over from our English fishing heritage or the total marketdominance of modern materials as I'm sorry to say cane rod building isvirtually a lost art in this country. Also their has been a big movementin Aust towards saltwater fly with impressive captures being made onrods up to 15# weight so a lot of the fishing press over the past fewyears has been about these large rods (and equally large fish) so thisdoesnt help either.It is interesting to hear that these small rods are used in tightlocations, most of our rivers tend to be either large deep and slow orsmall, overgrown, clear and fast so a rod that will effectively fish theeasily spooked fish in these smaller rivers from the bank as opposed towading would definately have a place in some anglers kits.Fortunatelythese fast flowing streams are the rivers(well the ones I am thinking ofanyway) that tend to produce our larger fish. trout over 1.5 kilos arequite expected on most healthy mountain waters but I'm getting theimpression that this small equipment would be a bit undersized for thisclass of fish, is this so or are their people out their who regularlytake fish like this on gear this size (2#wt). Thanks AllenAllen,The rods I build in the lighter weights (1 or 2) are usuallyspecialty rods for small stream brook trout, cuts, etc. One of mypersonal "all around" rods is a 6'9" 4wt. rod. The largest fish I havetaken on this rod is a 27" brown with a 15-5/8" girth. I guess what Iam saying is that the shorter rods are not all necessarily light rods.I build that length in a 6 wt also.As far as size of water, and wind: My 6'9" 4 will cast a 4dtline 70 ft. I cant get a decent hookset outside of 50, so the last 20is, in my opinion, just for show anyway. As for the wind, here is mylogic. If you want to beat the wind, do you cast high into it or lowinto it. Well that extra 2'3" of rod on a 9' puts the peak of yourcasting stroke (and your line) 2'3" higher off of the water. People canrave about the power of the long rods and how they will really punchline into the wind, and on, and on, and on, but I don't see their point.After all, Lee Wulff won several casting championships with a 7 footrod against the 10 foot competition rods (I can't imagine that everycontest he was in occurred on a still day). Rodmakers do and probablyalways will disagree about the value of short rods, but none of us canargue with facts and history. Bob from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Tue Oct 1 23:35:41 1996 Subject: Re: rod sizes Hi Bill,What you say below is about what I thought. I don't see much point makingtoo many comparisons of cane/graphite as it's all in the eyes of thebeholder in the end anyhow. I like to catch tuna and saratoga with mygraphite rod and walk around streams with a cane one even though I'm surea cane rod would do the job for tuna. You have helped clear things up relight weights though. Tony On Sun, 1 Oct 1995, Bill Cooper wrote: Tony Young wrote: After looking at all the tapers I can find, I have to admit I've beenpuzzled as to the scarcity of bigger rods but figured it was due to thecane itself making too heavy a rod in the bigger sizes making the smallerones more favoured.Any takers? Tony Tony, Thats about correct, in terms of current and past bias toward largercane rods.There are however, many fine "big dog" cane rods that have been producedthroughthe years that stack favorably against man-made materials. I own acouple of nine footers that I absolutly love fishing with, and I takethem with me everywhere. But at the risk of being presumtuous, I dont think that most of theindividuals you will find on this list bother to much with the tedium oftrying to compete with graphite on a wieght vs. perfomance basis. Mostof us realize that a well balanced fly rod outfit is what makes a rodcomfortable to use all day. I also believe that an once or two isntgoing to make or break my trip anyway, and if I ever get to that point,I'm sure that I will have forgoten the reason why I love fly-fishinganyway. from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Tue Oct 1 23:40:35 1996 Subject: Re: to Darryl Hayashida via rodmakers This week I must be vacabulary challlenged - first "merkin" and now "aust". Even mydaughter who spent last semester at UNSW couldn't translate for me. What is "aust"? Mike--Mike Ray "...sex, death and fly-fishing; It's short for AUSTRALIA mate! Tony Young from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Tue Oct 1 23:56:23 1996 Subject: Re: regarding rod sizes again On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Robert Nunley Jr. wrote: allen glover wrote: To All who replied, Thanks Well I did evoke a response! I just wish our own mail groups were thatactive. There are a few things that I would like to clear up ifpossible, I know that breaking strains in mono do not equate to fly line As far as size of water, and wind: My 6'9" 4 will cast a 4dtline 70 ft. I cant get a decent hookset outside of 50, so the last 20is, in my opinion, just for show anyway. As for the wind, here is mylogic. If you want to beat the wind, do you cast high into it or lowinto it. Well that extra 2'3" of rod on a 9' puts the peak of yourcasting stroke (and your line) 2'3" higher off of the water. People can One other aspect could be the reduced wind resistance from the thinnerline of a #4 compared with a #6? Tony from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 2 01:45:08 1996 (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA66;Wed, 2 Oct 1996 01:39:33 +0000 Organization: Spring Valley skreutzer@masc.noaa.gov,"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" ,"nmorris@ArkansasUSA.com" ,nanto , Michael Stevens ,Kate Howe , "jfoster@gte.net" ,james_c.griffith@landab.chcs.amedd.army.mil,"gman@iafrica.com" ,Gary Marquardt ,Dick Spurr ,"Daniel D. Williams" ,Belinda Brown ,/S=J_FTS.JOHNSON_at_FTSMITH/OU=WTCCM1/O=TOLEDO/P=OCF/A=COMPUSERVE/C=US/@owens-corning.comSubject: [Fwd: ] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------49947E5626F7 Hey guys. This was forwarded to me by my service provider. You need toread this real carefully. The company's intentions my be good, but theinfo available is really dangerous. Just thought I would let you all know. Bob Nunley FCC FRAUD ALERT--------------------- Your name, social security number, current address,previous addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date andother personal information are now available to anyonewith a credit card through a new Lexis database calledP- Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this informationcould be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwiseallow someone else to use your identity. You can have your name and information removed from thislist by making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862,select option 4 and then option 3 ("all other questions")and tell the representative answering that you wishto remove your name from the P-trax database. You mayalso send a fax to (513) 865-1930, or physical mail toLEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm your namehas been removed is always a good idea. As word of the existence of this database has spread onthe net, Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, andhas set up a special set of operators to handle thevolume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with "Play") isa manager responsible for this product, and is the personto whom complaints about the service could be directed.He can be reached at the above 800 number. Ask forextension 3385. According to Lexis, the managerresponsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. The representative will need your name and social securitynumber to remove you from the list. I suggest that weinundate these people with requests to remove our info from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone weknow. --------------49947E5626F7 (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AFW50 This was forwarded to me by several customers ......I thought it might be interesting to all......I have already had my information removed......... tony FYI.... FCC FRAUD ALERT--------------------- Your name, social security number, current address,previous addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date andother personal information are now available to anyonewith a credit card through a new Lexis database calledP- Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this informationcould be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwiseallow someone else to use your identity. You can have your name and information removed from thislist by making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862,select option 4 and then option 3 ("all other questions")and tell the representative answering that you wishto remove your name from the P-trax database. You mayalso send a fax to (513) 865-1930, or physical mail toLEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm your namehas been removed is always a good idea. As word of the existence of this database has spread onthe net, Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, andhas set up a special set of operators to handle thevolume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with "Play") isa manager responsible for this product, and is the personto whom complaints about the service could be directed.He can be reached at the above 800 number. Ask forextension 3385. According to Lexis, the managerresponsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. The representative will need your name and social securitynumber to remove you from the list. I suggest that weinundate these people with requests to remove our info from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone weknow. --------------49947E5626F7-- from lawdevil@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 2 07:06:08 1996 Subject: Re: to Darryl Hayashida via rodmakers Tony Young wrote: It's short for AUSTRALIA mate! Tony Young Tony, just chalk it up up to a bad day. Sometimes the old brain doesn't pick up on theobvious. Thanks Mike--Mike Ray "...sex, death and fly- fishing;lawdevil@ix.netcom.com the meanings of life and sport;Atlanta, Georgia are we real participants or just observers,404-332-6661 and what kind of difference does it make?"Cashiers, NC John Gierach704-743-5625 from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Wed Oct 2 08:37:14 1996 Subject: Re: regarding lighter weight/shorter rods Allan wrote At 09:48 02/10/96 +1100, you wrote:It is interesting to hear that these small rods are used in tightlocations, most of our rivers tend to be either large deep and slow orsmall, overgrown, clear and fast so a rod that will effectively fish theeasily spooked fish in these smaller rivers from the bank as opposed towading would definately have a place in some anglers kits.Fortunatelythese fast flowing streams are the rivers(well the ones I am thinking ofanyway) that tend to produce our larger fish. trout over 1.5 kilos arequite expected on most healthy mountain waters but I'm getting theimpression that this small equipment would be a bit undersized for thisclass of fish, is this so or are their people out their who regularlytake fish like this on gear this size (2#wt). Thanks Allen Allen, I built my first 2 wt. as a lark realizing that a rod of this line weight islimited to smaller sizes of flies and shorter casting distances. I don't useflies over size # 12 drys on it and tend to fish it where I know I will notbe required to cast longer than 50 feet. Within these parameters, it doesshine. As far as larger fish, I have landed cutthroat trout to about 1.5kilos on this rod. If the fish are really large (upwards of 25"), I tend touse longer rods although I have successfully fished 3 wts. in 7' lengths forBow River rainbows and browns that will run to 25". The lighter lineweights, I think, are speciality rods for special occassions and likleyshould not be the first cane rod in your arsenal.Never realized that there was trout fishing like that in Aust. Would youplease send me a private email 'bout the fishing. Regards, Don Andersen from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Wed Oct 2 08:37:25 1996 Subject: Tapers - a discussion To all, Throughout by rod building history, I have faithfully copied down tapers from every source I could in an attempt to understand what the rod builderwas attempting to do with the material. I am sure that applies to a host ofus as well. But is a taper the whole story. Certainly not! Glues, rodfinishes, number, placement and sizes of guides, tempering style, when rodwas tempered (prior to or after final planning), uplocking vs downlockingreel seats, when enamel was removed and possibly more items will effect howthe rod performs that you build vs what the orginal builder had in mind. What I propose is an convention for tapers/techniques where the tapersprovides only part of the info. require to replicate the rod taper listed.This idea could use a form system such as below: Rod Description: eg. 6'3" 3 wt. 2 pcOriginal rod Manufacturer: Taper measured from the tip of naked cane (minus finish):0" ___5" ___10" ___ etc. to the butt diameter. information to include all three flats from both tips. Guide flat is firstmeasurement follow by left then right sides when viewed from the sideopposite the guides (the fishing position) Enamel removed before final plane or afterFerrule placement and size/typeGuides required: ____Snake guide sizes: tip top, 2-# 2, 3- #3 etc.Stripping guide: manufacturer and sizeGuide spacing from the tip:0" , 4.5", 8.75" etc.Reel Seat: uplock/down lock/skeleton/insert materialFinish used and coats applied: ___ For measured rods, estimate finish typeand thicknessFinish applied after guides installed - yes/ noTempering infoTempering style: oven, gas ring etc. time/temp. if knownTempering done: prior to final plane or afterFlaming style: rapid and very hot or cooler and slowerFlaming color:Glue used: manufacturer And the list goes on!!! I feel that without the attachment to the tapers, you will/could build a rodvery different that what the orginal builder had in mind.If the above idea has merit, perhaps some of the computer guru's among uscould develop such a form that could be used by all platforms and still be Thoughts anyone? Don from maiello@YorkU.CA Wed Oct 2 09:14:28 1996 Subject: Re: regarding rod sizes again After all, Lee Wulff won several casting championships with a 7 footrod against the 10 foot competition rods (I can't imagine that everycontest he was in occurred on a still day). Rodmakers do and probablyalways will disagree about the value of short rods, but none of us canargue with facts and history. Bob This reminds me of a Lee Wulff video I saw.He gets in his plane, takes off, and finds a remote lake to fish.Since he has never been there, he has no idea what fly to use. He pullsout his favorite rod, a 6'6" cane rod ( I forget the weight ), and decidesto tie on three flies. A royal Wulff, a Mickey Finn and something else.Two were tied on as droppers. He casts out, and starts to strip in. Hehooks a nice 18" brook trout. WHile fighting it, he hooks a second oneabout the same size on the dropper. Then he hooks a third. So there he iswith his 6'6" cane rod, landing 3 brook trout all around 18" or so. Yougotta love it! Mauro. from bconner@cybercom.net Wed Oct 2 09:27:28 1996 Subject: Re:The Lexis-Nexis database As word of the existence of this database has spread onthe net, Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, andhas set up a special set of operators to handle thevolume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with "Play") isa manager responsible for this product, and is the personto whom complaints about the service could be directed.He can be reached at the above 800 number. Ask forextension 3385. According to Lexis, the managerresponsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. Well, I suggest that we get the personal information on Mr. Bleh and Mr.Fister (and also find his mother's address and phone number) and spatter itALL over the net and see how he likes it. I'm sure some enterprising soulwill know what to do with the information and these gentlemen (hah) will behoist by their own petard. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 2 10:10:27 1996 (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA81 Organization: Spring Valley Subject: Re: regarding rod sizes again Mauro Aiello wrote: After all, Lee Wulff won several casting championships with a 7 footrod against the 10 foot competition rods (I can't imagine that everycontest he was in occurred on a still day). Rodmakers do and probablyalways will disagree about the value of short rods, but none of us canargue with facts and history. Bob This reminds me of a Lee Wulff video I saw.He gets in his plane, takes off, and finds a remote lake to fish.Since he has never been there, he has no idea what fly to use. He pullsout his favorite rod, a 6'6" cane rod ( I forget the weight ), and decidesto tie on three flies. A royal Wulff, a Mickey Finn and something else.Two were tied on as droppers. He casts out, and starts to strip in. Hehooks a nice 18" brook trout. WHile fighting it, he hooks a second oneabout the same size on the dropper. Then he hooks a third. So there he iswith his 6'6" cane rod, landing 3 brook trout all around 18" or so. Yougotta love it! Mauro.Mauro,I saw the video on a Field & Streams Legend show on TNN about ayear ago. Judging by the look on Mr. Wulff's face after he landed thetrio, I'd say that had to be one of his most memorable catches. Bob from cmefford@avwashington.com Wed Oct 2 10:22:10 1996 Subject: Re:The Lexis-Nexis database As word of the existence of this database has spread onthe net, Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, andhas set up a special set of operators to handle thevolume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with "Play") isa manager responsible for this product, and is the personto whom complaints about the service could be directed.He can be reached at the above 800 number. Ask forextension 3385. According to Lexis, the managerresponsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. Well, I suggest that we get the personal information on Mr. Bleh and Mr.Fister (and also find his mother's address and phone number) and spatter itALL over the net and see how he likes it. I'm sure some enterprising soulwill know what to do with the information and these gentlemen (hah) will behoist by their own petard. Okay Okay, STOP THIS RIGHT NOW!! The information is NOT TRUE. This is more or less a hoax. The original post said that the Lexis-nexisonline data base icluded all kinds of stuff and this is simply not so. Theonline data is no more extensive than a phone book. Don't belive everything you read. On the cypherpunk listserver this issuewas whipped to death and there is nothing to it. Kill this thread NOW Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net Luvchipper from bean@vassar.edu Wed Oct 2 10:26:49 1996 Subject: Re: [Fwd: ] Hi-I just called the lexis-nexis number you gave and was told that they arenot taking requests for removal by phone but will remove a name from thep-trak listing if you e-mail them a request at: p-trak@prod.lexis-nexis.com -Jay from rfairfie@cisco.com Wed Oct 2 10:34:50 1996 Subject: Re: Tapers - a discussion from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Oct 2 07:05:54 1996Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 07:33:13 -0600 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: Don Andersen Subject: Tapers - a discussionMime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: dmanders@mail.ccinet.ab.caX-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.1 -- ListProcessor by CRENContent-Length: 2278 To all, Throughout by rod building history, I have faithfully copied down tapers from every source I could in an attempt to understand what the rod builderwas attempting to do with the material. I am sure that applies to a host ofus as well. But is a taper the whole story. Certainly not! Glues, rodfinishes, number, placement and sizes of guides, tempering style, when rodwas tempered (prior to or after final planning), uplocking vs downlockingreel seats, when enamel was removed and possibly more items will effect howthe rod performs that you build vs what the orginal builder had in mind. What I propose is an convention for tapers/techniques where the tapersprovides only part of the info. require to replicate the rod taper listed. This idea could use a form system such as below: Rod Description: eg. 6'3" 3 wt. 2 pcOriginal rod Manufacturer: Taper measured from the tip of naked cane (minus finish):0" ___5" ___10" ___ etc. to the butt diameter. information to include all three flats from both tips. Guide flat is firstmeasurement follow by left then right sides when viewed from the sideopposite the guides (the fishing position) Enamel removed before final plane or afterFerrule placement and size/typeGuides required: ____Snake guide sizes: tip top, 2-# 2, 3- #3 etc.Stripping guide: manufacturer and sizeGuide spacing from the tip:0" , 4.5", 8.75" etc.Reel Seat: uplock/down lock/skeleton/insert materialFinish used and coats applied: ___ For measured rods, estimate finish typeand thicknessFinish applied after guides installed - yes/ noTempering infoTempering style: oven, gas ring etc. time/temp. if knownTempering done: prior to final plane or afterFlaming style: rapid and very hot or cooler and slowerFlaming color:Glue used: manufacturer And the list goes on!!! I feel that without the attachment to the tapers, you will/could build a rodvery different that what the orginal builder had in mind.If the above idea has merit, perhaps some of the computer guru's among uscould develop such a form that could be used by all platforms and still besent my email.Thoughts anyone? Don Don, I think that it is a great idea, especially for the beginners like me. Idon't know much about cane, but I suspect that there are a lot of variables thatought to be accounted for, such as power fiber layer thickness, strip weight(a lousy approximation of power fiber density), node spacing, and the like. I would suggest a simple text file--I use a Unix platform that is TOTALLYunfriendly to/with anything out of the PC world. As time permits this week,I will put together a simple minded form and put it out for discussion andmodification. Thanks,Roger from bean@vassar.edu Wed Oct 2 10:37:10 1996 Subject: Re: [Fwd: ] Hi-Here is the message I just received from lexis-nexis when I requestedthat my name be removed from their listing: This is to confirm that we have received your request to have yourname deleted from the P-TRAK file. To efficiently remove records fromthe P-TRAK database, the following information is required: Last name, First name Middle NameAddress City, State ZipTelephone Number If you did not include this information, please resubmit your requestto p- trak@prod.lexis-nexis.com or mail this information to ATTN:P-TRAK, P. O. Box 933, Dayton, OH 45401. A World Wide Web-based form http://www.lexis-nexis.com/lncc/p-trak/index.html. You may also faxyour request to 1-800-470-4365. This information will be used solelyto remove names from the P-TRAK database and for no other purpose. Incorrect information is being distributed on Internet newsgroupsregarding the data displayed in LEXIS-NEXIS' P-TRAK file. P-TRAK islike an electronic "white pages." The only information displayed isthe name of the individual, current address and up to two previousaddresses and telephone number. In some cases, the individual'smaiden name may appear and as well as the month and year of birth.That is the ONLY information displayed in the P- TRAK file. Contrary to some messages that have been posted to some Internetdiscussion and news groups, the P-TRAK file does not contain anycredit histories, bank account information, personal financial data,mother's maiden name or medical histories. This misinformation hasbeen posted over and over again to various news groups. An example ofa record appears below: Name: DOE, JOHN ECurrent Address: 1066 Anywhere DriveDayton, OH 95454 Previous Addresses: 106 Somewhere DriveDayton, OH 92454 Birthdate: 9/1965 Telephone number: 555-1212 On file since: 6/1/1994 The information displayed in the P-TRAK file is the type ofinformation readily available from public information sources such astelephone directories (in print and CD-ROM format) and public recordsmaintained by government agencies. LEXIS-NEXIS markets the P-TRAK file to the legal community for use bygeneral legal practitioners, litigators and public attorneys, as wellas law enforcement agencies and police departments. Theseprofessionals use the P-TRAK file to assist in locating litigants,witnesses, shareholders, debtors, heirs and beneficiaries. LEXIS-NEXIS is aware of the sensitivities regarding the potentialmisuse of information. Business competitors of LEXIS-NEXIS have forsome time made Social Security numbers available to users of theirservices. In addition, Social Security numbers and other informationare available on the Internet from a number of sources. Despite thiswide availability of Social Security numbers in the market place,LEXIS-NEXIS discontinued the display of Social Security numbers in theP-TRAK file as of June 11, 1996, eleven days after the product wasintroduced. Through its actions, LEXIS-NEXIS is balancing the privacy concerns ofthe public with the legitimate needs of legal, business and governmentprofessionals for access to accurate sources of publicly availableinformation. By discontinuing the display of Social Security numbersin P-TRAK and only providing information that is already available tothe public from other sources, LEXIS-NEXIS believes it has responsiblymet the expressed concerns of the public. from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Wed Oct 2 11:17:52 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Design by EMail Martin seez... I'm a little confused. I have already downloaded a Excel version for theMac of Hexrod I believe. I haven't used it yet but I can open it up andrun it. (I just don't know exactly what to do with it yet) Is this thesame program only you just don't need to have Excel to run it? Yes, Martin, it is basically the same program. It's just anothermodification of Wayne's original program. Bruce Conner's version is aWindows version, Jerry Foster's is an EXCEL version. Wayne's original program, and his latest release, will run on any PCrunning MSDOS or Windows. Bruce's version, for now only runs on PC'swith Windows. Jerry's EXCEL version will run on PC's with Windows &EXCEL, or on a MAC with EXCEL. Jerry Ballard's version is much like Wayne's orginal version, exceptit does not need any computer at all to run. All you need is access toEMAIL. The program is running on the computer the EMAIL is sent to,and that computer will EMAIL back to you the program's results. I think it's a really nice modification for those that might not havethe required hardware/software to run one of the other versions, or work hours, and not have access to their home computers. After all, noneof us would even think about doing this stuff during working hours, onour work computers!!! Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Wed Oct 2 11:44:48 1996 (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA178254513; Wed, 2 Oct 1996 09:41:53 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: lexis-nexis Gentlemen I have had my self removed from the Lexis-Nexis list. You cando it by email.The email address is Send them your full name, address and ss# and ask them to remove you fromthe list. I heard back from them the next day with some lame excuse thatthey give this information to lawyers (arg) the police and etc..Some of us feel the only difference between a snake and a lawyer run overin the middle of the road is skid marks in front of the snake. Patrick from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Wed Oct 2 12:55:11 1996 Subject: Tapermail Thanks for making this available, it is greatly appreciated not only bymyself but also all my intell friends who are getting tired of my tying upthier computers one question I did have is on computing total line weight. Do you justmultiply the first 30' weight by 3 for 90' weight? What about WF lines? Thanks again, Jim from vedwards@freeway.net Wed Oct 2 12:58:35 1996 Subject: Re: Varnish removal OK every body, time for the typical "just finishing my first rod" type dumbquestions >g from lawdevil@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 2 13:05:24 1996 Subject: Re: lexis-nexis Patrick W. Coffey wrote: Some of us feel the only difference between a snake and a lawyer run overin the middle of the road is skid marks in front of the snake. Now, now, Patrick, have another valium [bg]! Mike--Mike Ray "...sex, death and fly- fishing;lawdevil@ix.netcom.com the meanings of life and sport;Atlanta, Georgia are we real participants or just observers,404-332-6661 and what kind of difference does it make?"Cashiers, NC John Gierach704-743-5625 from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Wed Oct 2 13:28:53 1996 Subject: Re: regarding rod sizes again G'day Allen: In your original post you state "cane rod building is virtually a lost art in this country." Forthose who want to build their own cane rods, I'm curious to know if sources exist withinAustralia for culm, cork, ferrules, guides, reel seat components, etc. Must one rely on theirown skills to manufacture many of these items or do you simply order these specialty items from sources outside the country? Thanks. Regards, Rich Brown from FFer4trout@aol.com Wed Oct 2 13:41:30 1996 Subject: Re: [Fwd: ] In a message dated 96-10-02 11:46:18 EDT, you write: This is to confirm that we have received your request to have yourname deleted from the P-TRAK file. To efficiently remove records fromthe P-TRAK database, the following information is required: Last name, First name Middle NameAddress City, State ZipTelephone Number If you did not include this information, please resubmit your requestto p- trak@prod.lexis-nexis.com or mail this information to ATTN:P-TRAK, P. O. Box 933, Dayton, OH 45401. A World Wide Web-based form http://www.lexis-nexis.com/lncc/p-trak/index.html. You may also faxyour request to 1-800-470-4365. This information will be used solelyto remove names from the P-TRAK database and for no other purpose. Snip I love it, to "remove" your name you must give them more details aboutyourself. DB from FFer4trout@aol.com Wed Oct 2 13:41:38 1996 Subject: Re: lexis-nexis In a message dated 96-10-02 12:52:29 EDT, you write: Send them your full name, address and ss# and ask them to remove you fromthe list. I heard back from them the next day with some lame excuse thatthey give this information to lawyers (arg) the police and etc..Some of us feel the only difference between a snake and a lawyer run overin the middle of the road is skid marks in front of the snake. Patrick Did they also promise not to trade, give or forward this information ot otherlists? Bet not. DB PS - The only difference between junk e-mail and junk mail is that you can'tswap contents in the junk e-mail and let the SOB's pay for the returnpostage. PPS - To any lawyers on the list, can I sue for my loses, since I have to payto AOL to download their junk? from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:25:13 1996 Subject: Tapers MikeSomehow I've missed it? Jerry Ballards "hexrod e-mail" works with any machine(old 286) Could you post address I could look but need to tie flys gjflysh@uwjerry gjflyfsh@uwyo.edu from fieldj@cais.cais.com Wed Oct 2 20:05:08 1996 Subject: planing forms Ever since I accidentally broke an old Montague in an antique shop(for which they charged me $40), I've been interested in trying tobuild a bamboo rod. I've managed to locate pretty much everything Ineed to get started, with the exception of a planing form (I've readBruce Conners FAQ). Queries: (1) are there suppliers of planingforms (Garrison-style)? (2) are some better than others? (3) how doI get in touch with them? (4) or do I have to locate a machinist tocustom build the darn thing? (5) and if so, any recommendations? (6)oh yeah, and how much should I expect to pay?Your kind responses are eagerly awaited . . . from allen@chem.eng.usyd.edu.au Wed Oct 2 20:28:06 1996 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 3 Oct 1996 11:27:11 +1000 Organization: *** Subject: to Rich Brown rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov wrote: G'day Allen: In your original post you state "cane rod building is virtually a lost art in this country." Forthose who want to build their own cane rods, I'm curious to know if sources exist withinAustralia for culm, cork, ferrules, guides, reel seat components, etc. Must one rely on theirown skills to manufacture many of these items or do you simply order these specialty items from sources outside the country? Thanks. Regards, Rich Brown Rich As far as I know there is are no sources for culm in Aust, it has to beordered direct from o/sPreshaped cork is reasonably easy to obtain cork rings of any qualityare very dificult to findA large range of fittings are easily obtained but are imported as theirare no manufacturers I know of in the countryMaybe talk to Tony Young via rodmakers about how to best source culm hehas had more experience than me at getting it. Hope this helps Allen from bruno@vv.cta.com Wed Oct 2 20:45:25 1996 Organization: Fatherhood/Brotherhood Subject: Re: The Lexis-Nexis database I've got Tolstoy's "War and Piece" digitized if anyone besidemyself would like to forward it to the gentlemen in question! from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Wed Oct 2 21:05:51 1996 Subject: Re: regarding rod sizes again Hi Rich,There are only a few cane rod makers I know of here in Aust and up tillnow we all had to import our own cane at huge cost as well as most of theother components if we wanted particular gear like reel seats and ferrules.When I imported my cane, I decided to bring in enough to sell to otherinterested people. I'll be advertising that fact in some mags herestarting December so there may be more people getting into the hoby oncethe cane's available without all the hasle. Corks, guides, silk etc areall OK unless as I said you're after something in particular.In a lot of ways it seems a bit like the cane rod makers scene in the US10-15 years back. regards Tony Young On Wed, 2 Oct 1996 rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov wrote: G'day Allen: In your original post you state "cane rod building is virtually a lost art in this country." Forthose who want to build their own cane rods, I'm curious to know if sources exist withinAustralia for culm, cork, ferrules, guides, reel seat components, etc. Must one rely on theirown skills to manufacture many of these items or do you simply order these specialty items from sources outside the country? Thanks. Regards, Rich Brown from jfoster@gte.net Wed Oct 2 21:11:40 1996 Subject: reel seats To all I ran into the guy, machinest, who manufactures mandrels and spacers forBonhams ,which is a supplier for pen crafting parts. He's going to buildme a set of mandrils and collars built to spec for turning 3.5 in reelseats. The kit will include a No. 1 morse taper which 4 mandrils of1/4-5/16-3/8-and 10mm, will skrew into ,with collars for the 3 standardod's for seats..or he will make them to any other spec required.. I know most of us have something already to do this job , but this isreally a slick setup. if anyone is interested, drop me an e-mail jfoster@gte.net jerry from jfoster@gte.net Wed Oct 2 21:17:36 1996 Subject: Re: to Rich Brown Allen Check out Tony's link on the archive.. he has the real stuff jerry from hihoslvr@teleport.com Wed Oct 2 22:01:42 1996 Subject: Re: rod sizes Hi Bill,What you say below is about what I thought. I don't see much point makingtoo many comparisons of cane/graphite as it's all in the eyes of thebeholder in the end anyhow. I like to catch tuna and saratoga with mygraphite rod and walk around streams with a cane one even though I'm surea cane rod would do the job for tuna. You have helped clear things up relight weights though. Tony On Sun, 1 Oct 1995, Bill Cooper wrote: Tony Young wrote: After looking at all the tapers I can find, I have to admit I've beenpuzzled as to the scarcity of bigger rods but figured it was due to thecane itself making too heavy a rod in the bigger sizes making the smallerones more favoured.Any takers? Tony Tony, Thats about correct, in terms of current and past bias toward largercane rods.There are however, many fine "big dog" cane rods that have been producedthroughthe years that stack favorably against man-made materials. I own acouple of nine footers that I absolutly love fishing with, and I takethem with me everywhere. But at the risk of being presumtuous, I dont think that most of theindividuals you will find on this list bother to much with the tedium oftrying to compete with graphite on a wieght vs. perfomance basis. Mostof us realize that a well balanced fly rod outfit is what makes a rodcomfortable to use all day. I also believe that an once or two isntgoing to make or break my trip anyway, and if I ever get to that point,I'm sure that I will have forgoten the reason why I love fly-fishinganyway. Tony I have caught teen Tuna on a cane rod this year. It is a 9 1/2 ', DonHolbrook design. One was eighteen pounds, and the others ten to twelve pounds.They were a lot of fun when they hit the Tuna Fly. I would like to fish forSkip Jack Tuna, but I am sure they swim too fast for a fly. Ron from jsbond@inforamp.net Wed Oct 2 22:06:39 1996 Subject: Re: planing forms Well all you need is $300.00 and you are on your way, contact Frank at303- 745-1353 (he's on the list too I think) or Lon at 207-781-5235. Theyboth offer forms. I have used Franks and they are most adequate. There aresome others selling forms for a lot more and I have no experience with them. Good Luck, JB At 21:10 02/10/96 -0400, you wrote:Ever since I accidentally broke an old Montague in an antique shop(for which they charged me $40), I've been interested in trying tobuild a bamboo rod. I've managed to locate pretty much everything Ineed to get started, with the exception of a planing form (I've readBruce Conners FAQ). Queries: (1) are there suppliers of planingforms (Garrison-style)? (2) are some better than others? (3) how doI get in touch with them? (4) or do I have to locate a machinist tocustom build the darn thing? (5) and if so, any recommendations? (6)oh yeah, and how much should I expect to pay?Your kind responses are eagerly awaited . . . James Bond, Toronto, CanadaFax (416) 444-4196E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Oct 2 22:26:29 1996 Subject: Re: rod sizes bob,tony,et al,i have to agree with bob on rod length. i use a 71/2' for a 5 all the timein montana. IMHO rod length only helps swimming nymphs around rocks in closequarters as in the blue ridge streams. i've been off list for 3months whilein montana. tough life but someone's gotta do it.hank woolman from DIXALEE@aol.com Wed Oct 2 22:36:55 1996 Subject: Re: Tapermail In a message dated 96-10-02 14:04:28 EDT, you write: one question I did have is on computing total line weight. Do you justmultiply the first 30' weight by 3 for 90' weight? What about WF lines? Thanks again, Jim Jim,I use a standard 50' length for all of my calculations, after you getafeel for what it will do it is much easier to work with one variable(lineweight) rather than two variables. Remember, change only one parameter at atime or you won't know what each variable will do to the end product.A.J.Thramer from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Wed Oct 2 22:39:36 1996 Subject: Re: planing forms Ever since I accidentally broke an old Montague in an antique shop(for which they charged me $40), I've been interested in trying tobuild a bamboo rod. I've managed to locate pretty much everything Ineed to get started, with the exception of a planing form (I've readBruce Conners FAQ). Queries: (1) are there suppliers of planingforms (Garrison-style)? (2) are some better than others? (3) how doI get in touch with them? (4) or do I have to locate a machinist tocustom build the darn thing? (5) and if so, any recommendations? (6)oh yeah, and how much should I expect to pay?Your kind responses are eagerly awaited . . . You can get planning forms from Frank Armbruster. I have used both hisrough form and planning forms on the rods I have built and found them moreexcellent. I believe the final form sells for @ $300.00 and the rough formunder $50.00. Jim Fillpot> from DIXALEE@aol.com Wed Oct 2 22:46:28 1996 Subject: Re: lexis-nexis In a message dated 96-10-02 14:55:05 EDT, you write: PPS - To any lawyers on the list, can I sue for my loses, since I have topayto AOL to download their junk? On a larger framework this a debate about freedom of speech and the right toprivacy. In the past 65 years the courts have upheld the freedom of speechissue to the exclusion of our right to privacy. IE: personal info aboutourselves is deemed to be in the 'public domain' . I certainly would notargue that freedom of speech is not one of the bulwarks of our nation andindeed the vision of the framers but with the influx of the computersincredible ability to collate, store and index unbelievable quantities ofpersonal info we as a society will have to decide what is ours personaly andwhat is 'public'.These issues will most likely be addressed in the US Supreme court in theend. It might make a good question to your representative in this electionyear.A.J.Thramer from DIXALEE@aol.com Wed Oct 2 22:48:47 1996 Subject: Re: planing forms In a message dated 96-10-02 22:08:42 EDT, you write: forms (Garrison-style)? (2) are some better than others? (3) how doI get in touch with them? (4) or do I have to locate a machinist tocustom build the darn thing? (5) and if so, any recommendations? (6)oh yeah, and how much should I expect to pay?Your kind responses are eagerly awaited . . . Concerning #2 STEEL IS REAL!!A.J.Thramer from mstevens@prolog.net Wed Oct 2 23:21:30 1996 Subject: Extra book by Perry D. Frazer Hello, I don't know if this is allowed or not. I have an extra copy of the book "Rodmaking for Beginners" by Perry D.Frazer pub. by Forest & Stream 1908 179pgs. Apparent first edition. If interested email off list for info. Thanks Michael Stevens Collector of Heddon and GrangerBamboo Flyrods Stevens Sight & Tool Co. Buying and selling bamboo flyrods andrelated itemsRR 1 Box 307C Also Fishing and Shootingbooks...email for lists.Effort PA 18330610 681 5670 Maker of fine reproductionsights formstevens@prolog.net Single Shot Rifles from allen@chem.eng.usyd.edu.au Wed Oct 2 23:38:10 1996 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:37:05 +1000 Organization: *** Subject: Re: Varnish removal Victor Edwards wrote: OK every body, time for the typical "just finishing my first rod" type dumbquestions >gShould you, or can you, wipe down a rod with tung oil first before dippingthe rod in polyurethane? Can you finish the rod completely off with just tung oil?Advantages/disadvantages? Thanks,Victor ------------------------------------------------------------ you think that question was dumb what about this one!! Why do you dip it in poly eurathane?Is it to act as a sealant a glue or what?What was used before poly eurathaneand what the @#$% is a planning form? it sounds like a template of somekind sorry but Im new to all this split cane shickanery. Allen from jfoster@gte.net Thu Oct 3 00:08:37 1996 Subject: Re: Tapers - a discussion Don This will prob. get lost in the nexis crap but.. Good thoughts.. the only thing I would add is for old rods to bemeasured with the rod assembled and on even inch intervals.(1",2" 13",not 1.75328") just to avoid the tip wraps or other jewelry.rea. the software most of use works that way..I could prob. work up a form,bruce could do some java. it should be comp. with all unix and others running netscape +plugins. jerry from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Oct 3 06:20:03 1996 Subject: Re: regarding rod sizes again Tony -I just found out recently that our good ol' mail system has failed usagain. I am sending again today. I know this from another countryman KevinKosgrove from NSW. from the sounds of it you have enough there to form agroup. Wayne from bean@vassar.edu Thu Oct 3 06:59:50 1996 Subject: Re: reel seats To all I ran into the guy, machinest, who manufactures mandrels and spacers forBonhams ,which is a supplier for pen crafting parts. He's going to buildme a set of mandrils and collars built to spec for turning 3.5 in reelseats. The kit will include a No. 1 morse taper which 4 mandrils of1/4-5/16-3/8-and 10mm, will skrew into ,with collars for the 3 standardod's for seats..or he will make them to any other spec required.. I know most of us have something already to do this job , but this isreally a slick setup. if anyone is interested, drop me an e-mail jfoster@gte.net jerry HI-Could you pass on the info on this when you get it? Thanks a lot.- Jay from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Thu Oct 3 08:23:33 1996 Subject: Re: Tapermail In a message dated 96-10-02 14:04:28 EDT, you write: one question I did have is on computing total line weight. Do you justmultiply the first 30' weight by 3 for 90' weight? What about WF lines? Thanks again, Jim Jim,I use a standard 50' length for all of my calculations, after you getafeel for what it will do it is much easier to work with one variable(lineweight) rather than two variables. Remember, change only one parameter at atime or you won't know what each variable will do to the end product.A.J.Thramer A.J.,It is not the amount of line fished that I was questioning. ( as anewbie I would like to know more about that also.) The Tapermail programasks for total line weight. The charts I have seen list the weight forthe first 30'. It seems that multipying the 30' by 3 for a 90' line is arough approx of the line weight, but I question the accuracy due to linetaper ect. Is there a chart for total line weight or should I be weighingmy lines? or is multiplying the 30' weight cloe enough? Jim Fillpot from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Thu Oct 3 08:38:43 1996 Subject: Re: The Lexis-Nexis database On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Bill Cooper wrote: I've got Tolstoy's "War and Piece" digitized if anyone besidemyself would like to forward it to the gentlemen in question! :-)))))) from mrj@seanet.com Thu Oct 3 11:31:59 1996 Subject: Re: Rod Design by EMail Thanks Mike, for clearing up that little mystery for me. In message writes:Martin seez... I'm a little confused. I have already downloaded a Excel version for theMac of Hexrod I believe. I haven't used it yet but I can open it up andrun it. (I just don't know exactly what to do with it yet) Is this thesame program only you just don't need to have Excel to run it? Yes, Martin, it is basically the same program. It's just anothermodification of Wayne's original program. Bruce Conner's version is aWindows version, Jerry Foster's is an EXCEL version. Wayne's original program, and his latest release, will run on any PCrunning MSDOS or Windows. Bruce's version, for now only runs on PC'swith Windows. Jerry's EXCEL version will run on PC's with Windows &EXCEL, or on a MAC with EXCEL. Jerry Ballard's version is much like Wayne's orginal version, exceptit does not need any computer at all to run. All you need is access toEMAIL. The program is running on the computer the EMAIL is sent to,and that computer will EMAIL back to you the program's results. I think it's a really nice modification for those that might not havethe required hardware/software to run one of the other versions, or work hours, and not have access to their home computers. After all, noneof us would even think about doing this stuff during working hours, onour work computers!!! Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy Martin Jensen from bootstrap@earthlink.net Thu Oct 3 17:13:46 1996 Subject: Re: Info on the "net" Hey, Ron. I agree with you. If I ever write anything you feel worthy ofpublishing, go ahead. All I ask is that you give me a credit linesomewhere-if you know that I wrote it, otherwise, publish and be satisfied!Frank Armbruster, Colorado Bootstrap from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Thu Oct 3 18:37:59 1996 Subject: Re:help Chris: Thanks for the suggestion. I found and downloaded the copy of Netscape for OS/2 and youwere right, it solved the problem. The archived text now displays in its entirety when retrieved.I appreciate the help provided by you and Jerry Foster. Next question: I'd like to download each month of archived data ( from June '96 on) but can'tget on to gte.net to use FTP. I've been trying using 'anonymous' as my user id and a variety ofpaswords, i.e., 'guest', any character, spacebar, etc. No luck! Can this be done yet? If so, willsomeone please describe the proper procedure to accomplish this. Thanks much. Rich (Net-Newbie) Brown from lostrivr@im4u.net Thu Oct 3 19:03:20 1996 Subject: Re: Varnish removal At 01:57 PM 10/2/96 -0400, you wrote:OK every body, time for the typical "just finishing my first rod" type dumbquestions >gShould you, or can you, wipe down a rod with tung oil first before dippingthe rod in polyurethane? Can you finish the rod completely off with just tung oil?Advantages/disadvantages? Thanks,Victor ------------------------------------------------------------Victor Edwardsvedwards@freeway.net Hi Vic,I always use tung oil on my rod blanks just after finish sanding. Imake sure to let them dry/cure for a few weeks before I dip varnish. Youcan check to see if the tung oil is dry with a blow dryer. When heat isapplied and the oil comes to the surface it needs more time.FIRST RODS ARE LIKE FIRST LOVES....YOU NEVER FORGET THEM!!!! Ron Barch> from jfoster@gte.net Thu Oct 3 19:40:45 1996 Subject: Re: rod sizes Hank, your'e back? How was the fishing? Jerry from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Thu Oct 3 22:43:19 1996 Subject: Re: Tapers - a discussion Jerry, Roger Fairfield suggested that he could put together aform. I have no idea what it takes to make all platforms happy. Perhaps youcould contact Roger and strike a deal together to make us up a form. Thanks, Don At 20:51 02/10/96 -0600, you wrote:Don This will prob. get lost in the nexis crap but.. Good thoughts.. the only thing I would add is for old rods to bemeasured with the rod assembled and on even inch intervals.(1",2" 13",not 1.75328") just to avoid the tip wraps or other jewelry.rea. the software most of use works that way..I could prob. work up a form,bruce could do some java. it should be comp. with all unix and others running netscape +plugins. jerry from jfoster@gte.net Fri Oct 4 03:26:07 1996 Subject: Re: help Rich My server doesn't alow anon. ftp. the proceedure with netscape is to doas you've done just click on the month, let it download to your machine,and then do a save to your disk. Then you can open it with any wordprocessor. start the wp first and then use open file under the menu andwhen you quit save it to the wp file format, or throw it away, whatever. clear?? from bootstrap@earthlink.net Fri Oct 4 05:55:29 1996 Subject: Re: planing forms Yeah, I build and sell planing forms of the Garrison style. Call me at(303)745-1353 if you want to talk about it. Frank Armbruster, ColoradoBootstrap, Inc. from wang@cel.cummins.com Fri Oct 4 07:50:18 1996 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: help I'm a new subscriber of this forum. Apparently, there is an archive which is used to store some of the files that were posted here. Where are they located at? and how can I get to them?Help is appreciated! Thanks!Simon from rfairfie@cisco.com Fri Oct 4 10:23:29 1996 Subject: Re: help Simon, you can link to them at the end of Bruce Conner's pageat http://www.cybercon.net/%7Ebconner/rod.html. He has them fromJanuary 1995 to February 1996. Another really interesting page you might want to check out is the rodmakerspage at http://Home1.gte.net/jfoster/links.html. Lots of good stuff, andlinks to manufacturers of hardware needed to build rods. Have fun! Roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Oct 4 06:07:29 1996Date: Fri, 04 Oct 96 07:49:08 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: "Simon Tien Chieh Wang" Subject: Re: helpMime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitX-Mailer: PMMail 1.52 For OS/2 UNREGISTERED SHAREWAREX-Listprocessor-Version: 7.1 -- ListProcessor by CRENContent-Length: 226 I'm a new subscriber of this forum. Apparently, there is an archive which is used to store some of the files that were posted here. Where are they located at? and how can I get to them?Help is appreciated! Thanks!Simon from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Fri Oct 4 11:27:41 1996 Subject: Re: help Simon, you can link to them at the end of Bruce Conner's pageat http://www.cybercon.net/%7Ebconner/rod.html. He has them fromJanuary 1995 to February 1996. Just a reminder folks, the above archive may disappear at any time.The machine was scheduled to be shut down the a couple months ago.I think the plan is now to just let it go until it dies, at whichpoint it will be unplugged. A copy of all of the material in the above archive has been transferto the RODMAKERS web site managed by Jerry Foster. Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from rfairfie@cisco.com Fri Oct 4 11:32:28 1996 Subject: Re: Tapers - a discussion Don/Jerry, what I had in mind was just a text file with space to enter data.The Netscape browser that I use at work has the Java capability disabled forsecurity reasons. I believe that most mailers will take a text (ASCII) fileand send it unaltered. For what we need, I don't think that we need a fancyword-processor-generated document. something like this... ROD DATA--------Overall length = ________ in.Line weight (50') = ________ grain Distance from tip Taper (before finish) ----------------- --------------------- 0 in.5 in.10 in.15 in.20 in.25 in.30 in.35 in.40 in.45 in.50 in.55 in.60 in.65 in.70 in.75 in.80 in.85 in.90 in.95 in.100 in.105 in.---------------------------------------- -------------------------------TWO PIECE ROD Tip length = _______ in. (ferrules installed) Butt length = _______ in. Male Ferrule weight = _______ grainsMake Ferrule length = _______ in.Female " weight = _______ grainsFemale " length = _______ in. Tip strip weight = _______ grains (finish planed, prior to sealing) Butt strip weght = _______ grains (finish planed, prior to sealing)-------- -----------------------------------------------------------------THREE PIECE ROD Tip length = _______ in. (ferrules installed) Mid length = _______ in.Butt length = _______ in. Tip/mid section-----------Male Ferrule weight = _______ grainsMake Ferrule length = _______ in.Female " weight = _______ grainsFemale " length = _______ in. Mid/butt section:-----------------Male Ferrule weight = _______Make Ferrule length = _______Female " weight = _______Female " length = _______ Tip strip weight = _______ grains (finish planed, prior to sealing)Mid strip weight = _______ grains (finish planed, prior to sealing) Butt strip weght = _______ grains (finish planed, prior to sealing)-------------- -----------------------------------------------------------CULM DATA Upper half----------Wall thickness (top) = _________ in.Wall thickness(bottom) = _________ in.Power fiber thickness (bottom) = _________ in.Node separation (ave) = _________ in. Lower half----------Wall thickness (top) = _________ in.Wall thickness(bottom) = _________ in.Power fiber thickness (bottom) = _________ in.Node separation (ave) = _________ in. Assumes that each rod is built from a single culm, and the the tip is from theupper half and the butt is from the lower half of a 12 foot culm. 'top' and'bottom' refers to the smaller and larger diameter ends of each half of the culm. For a three piece rod, the tip and mid sections come from the upperhalf.--------------------------------------------------------------------- ----GLUE AND FINISH DATA Glue type = _______________________________Cure time = _______________________________Cure temperature (if applic.) = _______________________________ Finish type = _______________________________Number of coats = _______Dipped? ___ yes ___ noCure time = _______------------------------------------------------------------------------- GUIDE DATA Number of guides = __________Guide placement: distance from tip size----------------- ----_______ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ____-------------------------------------------------------------- ----------GENERAL INFORMATION Add comments regarding construction, performance as appropriate. from cbogart@ibm.net Fri Oct 4 18:17:38 1996 Priority: Normal Subject: Re:help Rich Don't need to FTP for archives. Just use your browser to the Romakershompage then to archives and click on month/year you want and it downloadsto your browser - then you can save to a file or print. Chris from lostrivr@im4u.net Fri Oct 4 22:25:15 1996 Subject: Re: Info on the "net" At 03:12 PM 10/3/96 -0700, you wrote:Hey, Ron. I agree with you. If I ever write anything you feel worthy ofpublishing, go ahead. All I ask is that you give me a credit linesomewhere-if you know that I wrote it, otherwise, publish and be satisfied!Frank Armbruster, Colorado Bootstrap Hi Frank,Good to hear from you. Thanks for the publishing go ahead...Willcertainly give credit where credit is due. Hope all is well with you. Ron B.> from lostrivr@im4u.net Fri Oct 4 22:39:58 1996 Subject: Re:help At 07:22 PM 10/4/96 -0600, you wrote:Rich Don't need to FTP for archives. Just use your browser to the Romakershompage then to archives and click on month/year you want and it downloadsto your browser - then you can save to a file or print. Chris Hi Chris,How are the graphs coming along? I hope the water has gone down andthings are starting to dry out. Watch for your hollow fluting article inthe next PlaningForm. Ron Barch> from bootstrap@earthlink.net Fri Oct 4 22:40:02 1996 Subject: Re: Info on the "net" Hi, Ron. Did I send you a roughing form? Frank from lostrivr@im4u.net Sat Oct 5 07:11:51 1996 Subject: Re: Info on the "net" At 08:39 PM 10/4/96 -0700, you wrote:Hi, Ron. Did I send you a roughing form? Frank Frank, I got the form and did a small ad in the next PF. Will do a reviewin Nov. newsletter. I wanted more time to play around with the roughingform. It looks like a winner to me. Ron> from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Sat Oct 5 07:49:58 1996 Subject: Brown trout I just finished my second rod, for my wife. She went fly fishing for thefirst time this weekend. Had a great time on a small mountain streamwhere the average trout are 6" to 8". She only caught one fish, a fat andhealthy 14" Brown. It is the largest fish I have seen come out of thisarea. Has to be the Bamboo. :) Jim Fillpot from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Sat Oct 5 07:54:58 1996 Subject: Hexrod A.J. since you brought it up I have often wondered about how you come upwith the number for amount of line fished. I personly fish mostly smallmountain creeks where the normal cast is 10' and rarely over 20-25'. Ihave been using 45' to 50' for hexrod depending on line weight. But notsure there is any logic behind the amount of line fished in computingstresses. Does this possibly relate to the longest amount of line to befished? Jim Fillpot from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat Oct 5 09:46:13 1996 Subject: Re: Tapers - a discussion Roger/JerryI added some changes/suggestions/things Don At 09:31 04/10/96 -0700, you wrote:Don/Jerry, what I had in mind was just a text file with space to enter data.The Netscape browser that I use at work has the Java capability disabled forsecurity reasons. I believe that most mailers will take a text (ASCII) fileand send it unaltered. For what we need, I don't think that we need a fancyword-processor-generated document. something like this... Manufacturer ____Date built ___ Taper from rod or paper generated ROD DATA--------Overall length = ________ in.Line weight (50') = ________ grain As I don't use a computer generated taper program - is 50' the usual amount Distance from tip Taper (before finish) ----------------- --------------------- 0 in. In 1 inch increments5 in.10 in.15 in.20 in.25 in.30 in.35 in.40 in.45 in.50 in.55 in.60 in.65 in.70 in.75 in.80 in.85 in.90 in.95 in.100 in.105 in.------------ -----------------------------------------------------------TWO PIECE ROD Likley this info is not appropriate as all ferrules are not created equaland cutting the rod to finished length without knowing the male slide etc.will yield a short/long tip. Tip length = _______ in. (ferrules installed) Butt length = _______ in. Again, as ferrules are of different material and demensions, ferrule weightshould not be in info.Male Ferrule weight = _______ grainsMake Ferrule length = _______ in.Female " weight = _______ grainsFemale " length = _______ in. Tip strip weight = _______ grains (finish planed, prior to sealing) Butt strip weght = _______ grains (finish planed, prior to sealing)--------- ----------------------------------------------------------------THREE PIECE ROD Tip length = _______ in. (ferrules installed) Mid length = _______ in.Butt length = _______ in. Tip/mid section-----------Male Ferrule weight = _______ grainsMake Ferrule length = _______ in.Female " weight = _______ grainsFemale " length = _______ in. Mid/butt section:-----------------Male Ferrule weight = _______Make Ferrule length = _______Female " weight = _______Female " length = _______ Tip strip weight = _______ grains (finish planed, prior to sealing)Mid strip weight = _______ grains (finish planed, prior to sealing) Butt strip weght = _______ grains (finish planed, prior to sealing)---------------------- ---------------------------------------------------CULM DATA Upper half Wall thickness/power fiber thickness are not in ratio for all culms. Pluspower fiber is an arbitary guess as we all do not judge where it ends in theside wall.- ---------Wall thickness (top) = _________ in.Wall thickness(bottom) = _________ in.Power fiber thickness (bottom) = _________ in.Node separation (ave) = _________ in. Lower half----------Wall thickness (top) = _________ in.Wall thickness(bottom) = _________ in.Power fiber thickness (bottom) = _________ in.Node separation (ave) = _________ in. Assumes that each rod is built from a single culm, and the the tip is from theupper half and the butt is from the lower half of a 12 foot culm. 'top' and'bottom' refers to the smaller and larger diameter ends of each half of the culm. For a three piece rod, the tip and mid sections come from the upperhalf.--------------------------------------------------------------------- ----GLUE AND FINISH DATA Glue type = _______________________________Cure time = _______________________________Cure temperature (if applic.) = _______________________________ Finish type = _______________________________Number of coats = _______Dipped? ___ yes ___ noCure time = _______------------------------------------------------------------------------- GUIDE DATA Number of guides = __________Guide placement: distance from tip size----------------- ----_______ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ___________ ____-------------------------------------------------------------- ----------Need to add section about tempering/flaming/finish thickness/reel seat design. GENERAL INFORMATION Add comments regarding construction, performance as appropriate. It's a good start. Hope you're right and the email packages will read it. Don from JCZIMNY@dol.net Sat Oct 5 13:01:54 1996 Subject: Re: Info on the "net" Franz O. Armbruster wrote: Hi, Ron. Did I send you a roughing form? FrankHi Frank,Did you make a "quad" roughing form?John from DIXALEE@aol.com Sat Oct 5 17:17:59 1996 Subject: Re: Hexrod Hi Jim,The 50' figure I use it completely arbitrary. If I want a faster 4wt forinstance I use the same 50' figure but speed up the stress curve to do what Iwant at the moment. It would work just as well to increase the line lenght to65' for instance but I am used to the method I use and I know what stressvariation will do to the rod action. I think that this approach works for me,not for someone used to a different method. This brings up an interesting experiment from this summer. I had builtseveral 8' 5wt 3pc rods. Pleasant to use but they lacked something(??). Ifinally traced it down to a butt section that didn't deliver power through tothe tip when you double hauled on a long cast. I then proceeded tore-engineer the rod to eliminate the burble in the line. What I finally endedup with was a rod that would cast like a demon and was an unpleasant,godawful creation to use. The point being that bamboo does not depend on theperfect technical casting taper, it seems to need a little soul in the taperto bring the rod to life. After 200+ rods I still have a lot to learn aboutbamboo, without that quest I would have given up building a long time ago. Anybody else out there have any taper tales along this line?A.J.Thramer from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Sat Oct 5 19:43:39 1996 Subject: Hexrod A. J.. Thanks for the clarification. I had been using 45' on lighterrods, 50' on the heavier ones. Looks like I would be better off tostaandardize on the 50' and just eliminate that as a variable. If any oneout there has other opinions on est amount of line fished please jump in. Jim Fillpot from rcurry@jlc.net Sat Oct 5 22:52:59 1996 Subject: Re: Hexrod - length of casts Jim,I would imagine that the amount of line fished varies with the type of water and quarry. Perhaps the AFTMA settled on 30' because that gave a cast, with leader, of almost 40'; more than enough length for most trout fishing applications. The "average" cast usually described in the books is 35'.Don't forget that the weight is measured from the beginning of the taper, and does not include the 2'- 5' of level line most manufacturers put ahead of the taper. So one makers 4wt would be for 32', anothers for 35'.Best regards,Reed A. J.. Thanks for the clarification. I had been using 45' on lighterrods, 50' on the heavier ones. Looks like I would be better off tostaandardize on the 50' and just eliminate that as a variable. If any oneout there has other opinions on est amount of line fished please jump in. Jim Fillpot from jbr842@airmail.net Sun Oct 6 01:47:00 1996 Subject: Rod line rating Learned Sirs: As a new convert to the Land of the CANEnanites I have a question that probably has many subjective answers, but I will post it anyway. When you rate a rod (cane) for a given weight of line, what length of line is used to determine what best balances the rod? I have seen this described as the normal fishing distance for a particular rod, but this seems a bit arbitrary. I, in my naivete, realize the variables possible, but am curious as to what your criteria is for line-length/rod rating purposes when a customer says to you, "I would like a rod that is made to cast a 4 weight DT line"? Forgive the elementary nature of this question, but it seems it would be more correct to say, "I would like a rod made to cast a 4 weight DT line X number of feet". Do I make any sense at all, or am I trying to make this more complicated than it is? Thank you for your indulgence of a middle-aged old cop who wishes he had discovered the wondermousness of bamboo rods earlier in life. I have fallen in love with a new mistress that my wife accepts grudgingly but fortunately philosophically....Jim Bryan from jbr842@airmail.net Sun Oct 6 01:55:19 1996 Subject: Rod line rating Oops! I posted my query before I read Reed and Jim's discussion on this, but I would welcome any other input. If you don't choose to post it to the list, please e-mail me at jbr842@airmail.net Jim Bryan from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Oct 6 11:28:31 1996 Subject: Para 16 & 17 I always seem to find a new taper to fall in love with at the rod buildersgatherings. This year it was a Para 17 that would hurl line for incredibledistances without feeling heavy or stiff in the process. Anyone willing toshare the taper on this one? I wouldn't mind having the Para 16 also. Thanks- Tom Smithwick from bootstrap@earthlink.net Sun Oct 6 20:05:01 1996 Subject: Re: Info on the "net" NO, John, but I can rather easily. Do you want one? Frank from JCZIMNY@dol.net Sun Oct 6 20:47:04 1996 Subject: Re: Info on the "net" Franz O. Armbruster wrote: NO, John, but I can rather easily. Do you want one? FrankYES. John from hihoslvr@teleport.com Sun Oct 6 23:17:04 1996 Subject: Re: Info on the "net" Hi, Ron. Did I send you a roughing form? Frank Frank, If I am the Ron who you are addressing, no you did not. Ron from lostrivr@im4u.net Mon Oct 7 06:01:04 1996 Subject: Re: Para 16 & 17 At 12:28 PM 10/6/96 -0400, you wrote:I always seem to find a new taper to fall in love with at the rod buildersgatherings. This year it was a Para 17 that would hurl line for incredibledistances without feeling heavy or stiff in the process. Anyone willing toshare the taper on this one? I wouldn't mind having the Para 16 also. Thanks- Tom Smithwick Tom,The next PF will have some big tapers, and the Para 17. In msy search forthe Para 17 I came across many versions finally built one for a guy to taketo Alaska. It was a good rod bt Jeff Wagner took the numbers and made somechanges and came up with what I think was a little better model.I will do some checking on the Para 16.....Do you have the Para 15? Ron Barch from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Oct 7 08:36:19 1996 Subject: Re: Para 16 & 17 Ron - I think it was Jeff's version I was casting. The rod would cast 70 - 80feet easily by false casting 30 -35 feet and shooting the rest. Then I triedshooting 15 - 20 feet on the backcast, and shooting more on the front cast.If the backing didn't snag on the grass, the backing knot would have wound upoutside the tip top. Speed and power are not the same thing. Yes, I have thepara 15 with both the wet and dry tips. Look forward to the next issue. from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Oct 7 13:36:31 1996 Subject: Tapermail To Jerry Ballard and Mike Biondo, I finally got some time this AM to try the Tapermail system. It worked like acharm. Actually a bit easier than starting up Soft PC and running theprogram. Nice Job!..................Now about those 4 strip and 5 stripprograms.................................Tom Smithwick from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Mon Oct 7 15:55:03 1996 Subject: Re: Tapermail Tom seez... To Jerry Ballard and Mike Biondo, I finally got some time this AM to try the Tapermail system. It worked like acharm. Actually a bit easier than starting up Soft PC and running theprogram. Nice Job! As much as I would like to take the credit, all the credit reallygoes to Jerry. This was his baby from the start. All I did wasfind an email-able machine that the program could call home. Now about those 4 strip and 5 strip programs Actually, in the archives, there is another spreadsheet (TAPERS.WK1) with it much, but did speak with David about it several months back. from what I did use of it, it seems to have some pretty neat features. Mike - shortsheet - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon Oct 7 16:11:31 1996 (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA152322679; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 14:11:19 -0700 Subject: Micrometer Can someone tell me what size, model etc. ( If there are varieties) would best benefit me for measuring cane and ferrules. Are ferrule size measurements in 1/64th increments? Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Oct 7 16:11:42 1996 Subject: Para - 17 (7/49 Version) Tip section bar #45 Tip - .093"03" - .110"09" - .126"15" - .153"21" - .183"27" - .202"33" - .220"39" - .230"45" - .250"51" - .265 Butt section bar #44 0" - .265"03" - .270"09" - .272"15" - .280"21" - .310"27" - .320"33" - .330"39" - .330"45" - .330"54" - .330" Here would be a good test of hex96a - the above are the originals - nowenter into the program to get the 5" spacing for todays planning forms. Wayne from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Mon Oct 7 16:27:02 1996 Subject: Fishing Trip from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Oct 7 16:29:00 1996 Subject: Para - 15 (P.T. Kellum version) Heavy tip section bar #23 -5/6400" - .078"06" - .096"12" - .121"18" - .133"24" - .157"30" - .183"36" - .19642" - .21548" - .234" Light tip section bar #21 - 4 1/2 /6400" - .070"06" - .090"12" - .115"18" - .130"24" - .154"30" - .170"36" - .193"42" - .215"48" - .234" Butt section bar #2000" - .236"06" - .25012" - .260"18" - .270"24" - .280"30" - .295"36" - .300"42" - .300"48" - .300" Again the original taper Wayne from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Oct 7 16:58:27 1996 Subject: A few hints There are a couple of hints that I've learned over the years Rod tube length - NEVER use a rod tube that is too long for the rod it stores- several times broken tips can occur because the stored rod can pick upmotion and impact the cap. 1/2" space between the tip of the rod and thebottom of the cap is all you want Wooden forms - several times over the past several months I have split theupper half of the culm into 32 and 48 pieces for some special rods. I wassomewhat reluctant to plane off the wooden forms for the 1 st and 2 nd formso I used wooden coffee stirrers as shims in the forms - they pushed thestrips up enough and being soft wood they planned away as needed. Wayne from lostrivr@im4u.net Mon Oct 7 20:51:07 1996 Subject: Re: Para 16 & 17 At 09:36 AM 10/7/96 -0400, you wrote:Ron - I think it was Jeff's version I was casting. The rod would cast 70 - 80feet easily by false casting 30 -35 feet and shooting the rest. Then I triedshooting 15 - 20 feet on the backcast, and shooting more on the front cast.If the backing didn't snag on the grass, the backing knot would have wound upoutside the tip top. Speed and power are not the same thing. Yes, I have thepara 15 with both the wet and dry tips. Look forward to the next issue. Tom,The 3pc 8'6" version in the next PF is a rod I built for a guy to taketo Alaska. It was a little bit sluggish for my taste but would throw linelike crazy. He wanted a rod that would cast lemming patterns, the preferreddry fly pattern on many Alaskan rivers???!!!??? Upon his return he ravedabout the rods performance. I am gooing to build another this winter but I will decrease thenumbers about .008 in the butt and .006 in the tip and mid hoping to speedthings up. On second thought I may just leave the butt alone, I need tothink about it some more. When you see the numbers give me your opinion.Check Jon Parker for the Par 16 numbers. Ron B. from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Tue Oct 8 08:45:38 1996 (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA116732205; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 06:43:25 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: list Has there been no postings to the list for the last three days or some- how have I become disconnected from the list? from bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us Tue Oct 8 08:49:02 1996 Subject: Transfering my address Could some one tell me how to transfer rodmakers ( from the listserver) at my office to my computer at home. Is it possible? My new home address is bberry@terranet.net Bob Berry (FFF) from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Tue Oct 8 10:06:58 1996 Subject: Re: help Jerry- Perfectly clear and works fine now that I'm accessing the listserve via Netscape rather than Web Explorer. Thanks for your advice. Rich Brown from rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com Tue Oct 8 10:30:01 1996 Subject: cane Hello Bamboo Type Guys, I am new to this list and also to bamboo rodmaking. I'm anxious to getmy feet wet and would like to start buying some cane. If I get theminimum order from Demarest, what are my chances that I will get usablecane (for one rod at least) from this order. Also, does anyone know if youcan go to Demarest and pick out the cane yourself? -Bob Matarazzoe-mail: matarazz@hazeltine.com P.S. My compliments to Bruce Conner for his most excellent Web page. from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Tue Oct 8 15:21:01 1996 Subject: Rod actions It's been to quiet out there. Thought I would throw out a question on rodactions. I keep hearing the experienced builder say they ask thecustomers what type fishing they do ect., to help them design a rod forthat type of fishing. Being new to all this I do not know what typeaction ect is considered best for which situation. Can some one explain the advantages and disadvantages of the differenttypes of actions? Jim Fillpo from jhward@montana.campus.mci.net Tue Oct 8 19:09:38 1996 Subject: email Folks:I haven't gotten any messages for a few days. Is that quiet or isthe service down? Take Care, Jeffjhward.montana@montana.campus.mci.net from jtausig@bu.edu Wed Oct 9 11:03:11 1996 Subject: Hard Cork I have an old rod and the cork on it hasgotten quite hard...is there a "magic"trick which I can do to bring back thecork? thanks in advance! jared jtausig@acs.bu.edu from FFer4trout@aol.com Wed Oct 9 12:46:09 1996 Subject: YLI silk thread I needed some silk thread and found the color wasn't listed in the theAngler's Workshop catalog. Seems that they (Angler's) have the most of thesame color #'s as YLI. Does anyone know for sure if it's the same stuff?Also, seem to have the same 2 sizes (#50 & # 100) also. I did a search forYLI and found that YLI Corp. has a web-site: http://www.yli.com/ Also try this All-in-one search page: http://www.albany.net/allinone/all1www.html#WWW Later Don Burns from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Wed Oct 9 23:18:05 1996 Subject: very quiet Only a couple of e-mails the last few days is the list quite or do I have a problem gjflyfsh@uwyo.edu from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 10 09:08:46 1996 (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA172 Organization: Spring Valley Subject: Re: Micrometer CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: Can someone tell me what size, model etc. ( If there are varieties) wouldbest benefit me for measuring cane and ferrules. Are ferrule sizemeasurements in 1/64th increments? Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mac,I use a Starrett Model#436 1" micrometer. Any good quality mike will work. Bob from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 10 09:33:47 1996 (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA207 Organization: Spring Valley Subject: Re: Fishing Trip bobb@fsccax.ftscott.cc.ks.us wrote: weekend. Bob Berry (FFF) Bob, If you are talking about the Spavinaw trip, I am not sure of the dates yet. Hopefully, I will know by next week. I will let you know as soon as I can firm up plans. Thanks, Bob from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Oct 10 09:41:42 1996 Subject: Re: Para 16 & 17 I am going to build another this winter but I will >decrease thenumbers about .008 in the butt and .006 in the tip and mid >hoping to speedthings up. On second thought I may just leave the butt alone, I >need tothink about it some more. When you see the numbers give me >your opinion. Ron, I will wait to see the taper before I make too many suggestions, but ingeneral I would probably add material to the butt, rather than take it away.At least with the version I cast, I think you might run the risk of droppinga line size, even if you only subtract from the tip and mid. You might alsoconsider a two piece version, and/or these tapers lend themselves well to a5 strip project if you want to get exotic. from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Oct 10 09:41:42 1996 Subject: Re: cane Bob - Mr. Demarest has informed us that he no longer allows people to comeand select cane. I would be suprised if most, if not all, of the cane you get from Demarest would not be decent stuff. Tom Smithwick from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Oct 10 10:13:57 1996 Subject: Re: Micrometer An alternate to a micrometer is a dial caliper - Not only can you measureODs but you can also use them to measure IDs and DEPTHs . The standard is a6" that reads .100"/ rev. Many of us have found them to be quicker than amicrometer for the many hundred measurements preformed during finaldimensioning. Enco manufacturing in Chicago (and other cities) is a goodsource for tools ( both micrometers and calipers) 800 information will gettheir phone number. The last I bought for the classes I do ran about $16.00 -they also have a depth gauge (for setting final forms) at about $11.00.However DON'T use there points they are not a true 60 degree angle - for thatyou need a Starret point.Once upon a time all measurements for fly rods were 1/64's includingthe rod dimensions. Luis Marden talks of the first rod he made in the early40's using Dr. Holdens book. It was made to the nearest 64th of an inch. Andtoday we worry about a thousandths here or there. Wayne from mrj@seanet.com Thu Oct 10 10:34:52 1996 Subject: Re: cane If you are really good and you want to make that special perfect cane rod than you will have to pick and choose. What you will find is that in most of the bad cases of cane you will have to do a lot more straightening and prep work to use the cane. There will also possibibly be leaf nodes that you need to split aroundand the cane ID marks left by the workers who cut the cane. The worst pieces mayalso have less thickness of power fibers than others. My suggestion is to start with the worst piece of cane you have, provided that it is sound. This way as you get better, you will have better cane to work with and since you will be making better rods, it stands to reason that you would want better cane. Also, you will really learn about how to straighten the bamboo prior to planing this way. Mainly becaus there will be so much of it to do! As far as going there and picking out your pieces, I don't know. The last batch I bought was still wrappedin the burlap that I THINK it was shipped over from China, in so I doubt that itwas even opened up at Demerest. In message writes:Hello Bamboo Type Guys, I am new to this list and also to bamboo rodmaking. I'm anxious to getmy feet wet and would like to start buying some cane. If I get theminimum order from Demarest, what are my chances that I will get usablecane (for one rod at least) from this order. Also, does anyone know if youcan go to Demarest and pick out the cane yourself? -Bob Matarazzoe-mail: matarazz@hazeltine.com P.S. My compliments to Bruce Conner for his most excellent Web page. Martin Jensen from hadn@chevron.com Thu Oct 10 11:02:52 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:02:47 -0700 Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:02:47 -0700 Subject: RE:Cane Encoding: 40 TEXT In message writes:Hello Bamboo Type Guys, I am new to this list and also to bamboo rodmaking. I'm anxious to getmy feet wet and would like to start buying some cane. If I get theminimum order from Demarest, what are my chances that I will get usablecane (for one rod at least) from this order. Also, does anyone know if youcan go to Demarest and pick out the cane yourself? -Bob Matarazzoe-mail: matarazz@hazeltine.com P.S. My compliments to Bruce Conner for his most excellent Web page.I've seen this subject come up before - Most cane being unsuitable forrod making -I think it might stem from the little blurb in the Orvis catalog whereit states that only 5 percent of the cane received by Orvis is used in their rods. Ifyou made rods like Orvis does ( natural color with no blemishes ) and sold themcommercially, this might be true, but if you are a home hobbiest and really onlyinterested in making a rod to fish with, except for an odd strip here and there ( wormhole, leaf scar, etc. ) all the cane will suitable for rod making. I like theaction I get from flaming the cane to temper it, and flaming gives me the added bonus of areallyinteresting color pattern where water marks and other purely cosmeticblemishesadd to the character of the finish. I've been well satisfied with thecane I've gotten from Demarest. Darryl Hayashida from rfairfie@cisco.com Thu Oct 10 15:02:22 1996 Subject: RE:Cane Darryl, do you flame cane in place of heat treating it? If so, and it works,how do you do it? Do you use a special torch? At the present time, I don't have a heat gun and do not have a heat treating set up, and if flaming solvesthe tempering problem, I would like to try it. Thanks,roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Oct 10 10:38:16 1996Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:00:18 -0700 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: "Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn)" Subject: RE:CaneX-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.1 -- ListProcessor by CRENContent-Length: 1456 In message writes:Hello Bamboo Type Guys, I am new to this list and also to bamboo rodmaking. I'm anxious to getmy feet wet and would like to start buying some cane. If I get theminimum order from Demarest, what are my chances that I will get usablecane (for one rod at least) from this order. Also, does anyone know if youcan go to Demarest and pick out the cane yourself? -Bob Matarazzoe-mail: matarazz@hazeltine.com P.S. My compliments to Bruce Conner for his most excellent Web page. I've seen this subject come up before - Most cane being unsuitable forrod making -I think it might stem from the little blurb in the Orvis catalog whereit states that only 5 percent of the cane received by Orvis is used in their rods. Ifyou made rods like Orvis does ( natural color with no blemishes ) and sold themcommercially, this might be true, but if you are a home hobbiest and really onlyinterested in making a rod to fish with, except for an odd strip here and there ( wormhole, leaf scar, etc. ) all the cane will suitable for rod making. I like theaction I get from flaming the cane to temper it, and flaming gives me the added bonus of areallyinteresting color pattern where water marks and other purely cosmeticblemishesadd to the character of the finish. I've been well satisfied with thecane I've gotten from Demarest. Darryl Hayashida from FFer4trout@aol.com Thu Oct 10 18:04:07 1996 Subject: Dip tank designs? I'm about to venture into dip varnishing of some rods. Any good ideas thatwill help me before I reinvent the wheel will be appreciated. I like Darryl H's idea of draining the varnish out vs. pulling of the rods.Since the varnish will drain out, I assume one would want to dip more thanone section at a time. So what dia. tubes are people using? How much varnishdoes one of these things hold? Must be a big can to catch it all? Would the ability to strip the unit down for cleaning be worth the effort ordo most people just flush with a solvent after each use? Has anyone tried using some "canned" air for cleaning off guides etc. afterdipping? Is there a FAQ for constructing a dip tube somewhere? I didn't see one. Thanks, Don Burns from jonrc@atlantic.net Thu Oct 10 18:55:49 1996 Subject: Re: Micrometer WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: An alternate to a micrometer is a dial caliper - Not only can you measureODs but you can also use them to measure IDs and DEPTHs . The standard is a6" that reads .100"/ rev. Many of us have found them to be quicker than amicrometer for the many hundred measurements preformed during finaldimensioning. Enco manufacturing in Chicago (and other cities) is a goodsource for tools ( both micrometers and calipers) 800 information will gettheir phone number. Wayne I've been out here lurking, planing and fishing for the last few months,but I'm ready to jump back into the group again. So my 2 cents.... Get a caliper, I've used both and I have found tha a caliper is so mucheasier to use and as Wayne points out it's good for many rod makingtasks. Enco's number is 1-800-873-3626.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from cbogart@ibm.net Thu Oct 10 19:56:00 1996 Priority: Normal Subject: RE:Cane OK Guys Let's open a bag of worms - Quality of Cane and percent used. If you make one rod from a culm it can be said that you have used5 - 10 % of that culm by volume. Not much. It is also one of the cheapestparts of a rod. Labor is where the real cost is. What is the Beef. If you discard a few culms from a sack - you still have a cheep raw material. Now, the first nodeless rod I made was from a "discarded" culmbecause the butt was fired by the Chinesse and not "suitable" for a "normal" rod. But, it was fine for me. So it goes to prove - one man's garbage is another's treasure. So, those of you who have "bad" culmsplease send them to me for recycling. Thanks Chris from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu Oct 10 21:14:50 1996 Subject: Re: Rod actions Jim,I'll stick my neck out on this one. I've built quite a few graphite(excusethe word) as well as cane rods. When I ask a customer about his fishing I'mlooking more at rod length and line wgt. Action is pretty subjective. I'vehad people that are fast graphite experienced buy a moderate action canebecuase to them it did the work with a lot less stress and I've had thereverse happen. I guess what I'm saying is that custom building rod action isreally(IMHO) an art form that I'm still learning. Good luck,Hank Woolman. from DIXALEE@aol.com Thu Oct 10 22:15:25 1996 Subject: Re: cane In a message dated 96-10-10 02:48:33 EDT, you write: I am new to this list and also to bamboo rodmaking. I'm anxious to getmy feet wet and would like to start buying some cane. If I get theminimum order from Demarest, what are my chances that I will get usablecane (for one rod at least) from this order. Also, does anyone know if youcan go to Demarest and pick out the cane yourself? Hi Bob,The Demarest cane we get out here in the colonies is pretty damn poor. Iassume that if you go to the warehouse you can pick out some usable cane. Thecane from Tuxedo in Stockton CA has been alot better. A.J.Thramer from moucheux@sympatico.ca Fri Oct 11 14:39:17 1996 Organization: Le Moucheux Enr. Subject: Re: Dip tank designs? FFer4trout@aol.com wrote: I'm about to venture into dip varnishing of some rods. Any good ideas thatwill help me before I reinvent the wheel will be appreciated. I like Darryl H's idea of draining the varnish out vs. pulling of the rods.Since the varnish will drain out, I assume one would want to dip more thanone section at a time. So what dia. tubes are people using? How much varnishdoes one of these things hold? Must be a big can to catch it all?I think that draining the varnish tank every time you use it would have a hard time keeping the varnish at the same level of density and keeping the very expensive varnish from gelling. I found that pulling the rods pieces is much better, unless you dont have the space to pull the pieces out. I use a 2" i.d. plastic tube that hold close to a gallon of varnish and keep it full after each uses and also air tight with a special attachment I fabricated. My varnish never goes hard or gels. And by draining the tank you would not see if the guides are free of varnish. I tried varnishing the pieces before applying the guides... and I did not like the end results.Would the ability to strip the unit down for cleaning be worth the effort ordo most people just flush with a solvent after each use?I pull the pieces at about 1" per minute. The guides clean themselves at that speed. I have a small rubber bulb blower just in case the varnish does not break in the guides.Has anyone tried using some "canned" air for cleaning off guides etc. afterdipping?I attached the tube to a plank of 6" X 60" with a small motor with a variable reostat. I get the speed I want with this. If you can get a copy of the book by Garrison on page 175, you will find a complete plan of the dip varnish tank. I made it a bit different but the idea is the same.Is there a FAQ for constructing a dip tube somewhere? I didn't see one. Thanks, Don Burns -- Mike Lajoiehttp://www.titan.qc.ca/moucheux from hadn@chevron.com Fri Oct 11 14:59:22 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:59:17 -0700 Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:59:17 -0700 Subject: RE: Cane Encoding: 31 TEXT Darryl, do you flame cane in place of heat treating it? If so, and it works,how do you do it? Do you use a special torch? At the present time, I don't have a heat gun and do not have a heat treating set up, and if flaming solvesthe tempering problem, I would like to try it. Thanks,roger Flaming will help the tempering, but you can't just flame only andnot heat treat in some other way. A torch ( I use an ordinary propane torch) produces too intense heat for the heat to soak all the waythroughand drive off all the moisture without igniting the culm. Generally whatI do is use a heat gun on the pith side first and then flame the enamel side.The heat gun is used on the pith side until the pith scorches, and indoing this you would not believe how hot the enamel side gets A heat gun heatsin such a way as to allow the heat time to soak all the way through tothe other side without igniting the bamboo. You don't need to buy a super high tech heat gun, for a long time I useda$29.95 paint stripping heat gun to heat treat my cane. I still don't ownaheat treating oven. Darryl Hayashida from hadn@chevron.com Fri Oct 11 15:33:09 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:33:04 -0700 Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:33:04 -0700 Subject: RE: Dip tank designs? Encoding: 41 TEXT I like Darryl H's idea of draining the varnish out vs. pulling of the rods.Since the varnish will drain out, I assume one would want to dip more thanone section at a time. So what dia. tubes are people using? How much varnishdoes one of these things hold? Must be a big can to catch it all? I use a 2 in. OD PVC pipe. 50 inches long holds a gallon of varnish.Pour the varnish in the pipe, use the can you just emptied to catchit as it drains. Would the ability to strip the unit down for cleaning be worth the effort ordo most people just flush with a solvent after each use? I tape a rag around the top of the pipe to keep dust out, and let the varnish set up inside the tube without removing the section. Instant dust free clean room. To make sure my valve doesn't clog, I poursome mineral spirits in a coffee can and submerge the valve in it from the outside of the tube. Use some scrap wood under the canto prop it up and let the valve sit in the solvent. There is some varnish that builds up on the inside of the tube, but it will be a long time before it gets in the way, and besides, it's only a couple of dollars to replace the pipe. Lately I've been using a pipe with a hole drilled in the end cap. A3/16ths hole drains at about the right rate. sometimes it's cloggedafter a section is done, all you have to do is drill it out again forthe next time. Has anyone tried using some "canned" air for cleaning off guides etc. afterdipping? Don't see why it wouldn't work, except its hard to get to all the guidesif you use the drain tube method. Is there a FAQ for constructing a dip tube somewhere? I didn't see one. Wayne's book has a good description on how he made his dip tube. Darryl Hayashida from hadn@chevron.com Fri Oct 11 15:36:41 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:36:33 -0700 Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:36:33 -0700 Subject: RE: Cane Encoding: 14 TEXT So, those of you who have "bad" culmsplease send them to me for recycling. Yes, I'll even pay for shipping if you want to give me all your bad Demarest culms. Darryl Hayashida from caneman@clnk.com Fri Oct 11 19:08:19 1996 (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA186 Organization: Spring Valley Subject: Re: Cane Roger Fairfield wrote: Darryl, do you flame cane in place of heat treating it? If so, and it works,how do you do it? Do you use a special torch? At the present time, I don'thave a heat gun and do not have a heat treating set up, and if flaming solvesthe tempering problem, I would like to try it. Thanks,roger Roger, I know you addressed your question to Darryl, but I have to throw in my two cents worth. It has been my experience that you cannot achieve a consistent even tempering by flaming alone. I feel that flaming does affect the action of a rod, but I alway heat treat my rods after flaming. Bob Nunley from bconner@cybercom.net Fri Oct 11 19:12:34 1996 Subject: New face on the FAQ I have decided to go with the flow and make a frames version of the FAQ.The old, non-frames version is still available and is the default if yourbrowser doesn't do frames. The URL is http://www.cybercom.net/~bconner/rodNframes.html Let me know what you think. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Fri Oct 11 20:48:27 1996 Subject: dip tube design I (newbie) tried Darryl H's drain method with a 6'rod stripped and made from a 9' with a broken butt section the method worked great for volumesof various sizes of PVC try the archives I think it was Sept 95 (not sure)jerry gjflyfsh@uwyo.edu from pwjones@onr.com Sat Oct 12 04:49:38 1996 Subject: greenhart blanks Is there a US source for Greenhart blanks? Paul W. Jonespwjones@onr.com9306 Roxanna DriveAustin, Texas 78748512 282- 6662Fax 282-5704 from cbogart@ibm.net Sat Oct 12 10:40:13 1996 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: New face on the FAQ Bruce I checked it out and it looks good. Nice new face. BTW did you ever fix that print glitch in your program. I haven'tseen an update. Chris from hadn@chevron.com Sun Oct 13 02:07:35 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Sun, 13 Oct 1996 00:08:01 -0700 Sun, 13 Oct 1996 00:08:01 -0700 Subject: RE: Dip tank designs? Encoding: 57 TEXT I think that draining the varnish tank every time you use it would have ahard time keeping the varnish at the same level of density and keeping the veryexpensive varnish from gelling. True, I do have to add about half an ounce of thinner every so often,andyou can't start it draining and come back to it the next day. As soon asit's done draining you have to cover the varnish. I thought that wouldbeobvious, and I wouldn't need to mention it. I found that pulling the rods pieces is much better, unless you dont have the space to pull the pieces out. The whole premise of the set up is to avoid the expense and space needed tank. If youhave the money and space for a conventional dip tank, then by all means,go ahead. I use a 2" i.d. plastic tube that hold close to a gallon of varnish and keep it full after each uses and also air tight with aspecial attachment I fabricated. My varnish never goes hard or gels. A couple of drops of thinner (don't mix it, let it float on top) andthen put the cover back on tightly takes care of that problem. Something I learned in HighSchoolwood shop. And by draining the tank you would not see if the guides are free of varnish. I tried varnishing thepieces before applying the guides... and I did not like the end results. Each to his own I guess. I didn't see much difference, and I liked thefact thatthe blank was sealed everywhere, even under the reel seat and handle.Justin case water seeped in, moisture couldn't get into the bamboo. I pull the pieces at about 1" per minute. The guides clean themselves at thatspeed. I have a small rubber bulb blower just in case the varnish does not break inthe guides. All depends on the thickness of your varnish. I don't like a real thickcoatof varnish on my rods, so I thin it out quite a bit. Darryl Hayashida from bruno8@primenet.com Sun Oct 13 12:25:19 1996 Organization: Fatherhood/Brotherhood Subject: TEST I havn't received a post since 10-10, is anybody else having similarprob's? from caneman@clnk.com Mon Oct 14 10:43:03 1996 (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA167 Organization: Spring Valley Subject: End of Subscription Mike, Jerry and Other Rodmaking friends...I must ask, due to circumstances beyond my control, that I be removed from the rodmakers listserv.The short time I have been on this list, I have enjoyed the information interchange and looked forward to reading the list daily. Unfortunately, I will no longer have access to a computer on a continual basis. As far as normal email, My oldest son will still be at this workstation to receive and relay email for me. I will truely miss the threads and tales from this listserv as well as the rodmakers who post them. Hopefully, I will have my shop moved and back in operation within a short period. I will try to get back on line and let you all know where I am. Tight Lines... RL Bob Nunley, Rodmaker from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Oct 14 14:29:24 1996 Subject: Hexrod for comparisons? As I have stated before, I am not a math wizard. I'm hoping to get someguidance from someone better versed in engineering. The other day I was looking over some stress reports I had run on theGarrison 212 and the Para 15,both 8 foot 6 weights. In the 80 in. actionlengths, total bamboo moments were 190 in/ozs and 216 in/ozs, respectively.If you divide these numbers by the 80 inches you get 2.375 for the Garrison,and 2.7 for the Para 15. Is this the theoretical weight of the cane in theaction length? I checked some other rods also and got numbers that lookedreasonable, but somewhat high compared to actual rod weights. Question #2) Total moments for the 212 are 465 in/ ozs, for the Para 15 theyare just under 500. Since the casters hand must supply the force thatcreates the moments, is it fair to say that it requires 6-7% more force tocast 50 feet with the para 15? ( neglecting balance,air resistance,etc).Would this be a good way of looking at heavier rods before you built them? total moments over 850 in/ozs no matter what the taper.Coming soon - how to win at Blackjack using Hexrod 96.TomSmithwick from rmoon@dns.ida.net Mon Oct 14 17:24:58 1996 Subject: Re: greenhart blanks In anser to Paul Jones' request for Greenheart blanks, I do not know of any. I did however find a source of greenheart at one time. Presently I do not think he has any stock; at any rate he did not in February. The name of the source was Handloggers and it was located around (although not in) Sausalito CA. Prior to that I had found a source in the East somewhere who had 2 x 4's. I think that with some searching you can probably locate some stock. With a taper jog you can fough out an octogon and with drawknives, spokeshaves and scrapers round it off. If you are seriously into Greenheart, I'd appreciate any information on construction you might have. Although I have not yet done so, I have access to a number of Greenheart tapers. Unfortunately I've been so busy with cane that I have not yet started any greenheart.SincerelyRalph W. Moon from rmoon@dns.ida.net Mon Oct 14 17:26:59 1996 Subject: Re: TEST I havwe two or three null days in the last week or so, but I am still apparantly getting some messages through. Is there a problem with the list server or is it on my end?Ralph W. Moon from bconner@cybercom.net Mon Oct 14 19:01:56 1996 Subject: Re: New face on the FAQ Bruce I checked it out and it looks good. Nice new face. BTW did you ever fix that print glitch in your program. I haven'tseen an update. Thanks! Yes, I have made some fixes, but I've been really busy and Iwanted to add some of the other things like ferrule weights and stuff tooand just haven't had time. I'll see if I can get to it this week. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Oct 14 19:04:03 1996 Subject: Re: RE: Dip tank designs? Darryl,et al,I've been lucky enuf to have a high ceiling so I pull 'em. I pull the rodsas fast as I can between guide wraps and hold for 3 min. at the bottom of thebottom wrap to let the guide drain before snatching to the next guide. I usea thinned varnish(about 50-50 spar urethane and turpentine) at about 75 deg.f. Three coats generally does it. The tube is 2" in diam. and 52" long- holdsabout a gal. of liquid. Hope this helps. Remember, rod coatings are an artform. I try to keep the humidity below 55% Good luck.Hank Woolman. from oborge@aiss.uic.edu Tue Oct 15 09:20:12 1996 Subject: FW: greenhart blanks Encoding: 34 TEXT ----------From: Borge, Olaf A.Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 1996 7:04 AM Subject: FW: greenhart blanks Paul,King of The Hill Fly Fishing has them if you have a browser.....http://www.kinghill.com/ or 1-800-347-4670 ----------From: pwjones@onr.com[SMTP:pwjones@onr.com]Sent: Saturday, October 12, 1996 4:48 AM Subject: greenhart blanks Is there a US source for Greenhart blanks? Paul W. Jonespwjones@onr.com9306 Roxanna DriveAustin, Texas 78748512 282- 6662Fax 282-5704 from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Oct 15 10:05:17 1996 Subject: Rod comparisons Tom Has brought up a couple of points. The first is the bamboo weight ofthe rod. I have used a little different method to determine the rod weights -this is to figure the volume of the rod and then apply a weight / cu in. Idon't know how the two might compare.As far as comparing the #212 to the para - 15 these are two verydifferent rods. I know that even for a bad (small creek syndrome)caster likemyself the para will go to the backing. I think that the difference of the total moments is that the para has ahigher 'amplitude' - its stress curve from high value to low value is greaterthan the #212 which would indicate that it is a 'faster' (loads to maximumslower)rod consequently it would have a broader loading range or a fastertiming.As far as handlability I'm sure that that is a personal thing - formyself even a 6 weight is hard to use properly because of the short lightrods that I'm accustom to where others can handle larger line sizes andgreater distances. Therefore I am not only short and bald but only a 400in/ozs type guy. Wayne from rgriff@tcac.com Tue Oct 15 15:49:39 1996 Subject: Re: End of Subscription Mike, Jerry and Other Rodmaking friends...I must ask, due to circumstances beyond my control, that I be removed from the rodmakers listserv.The short time I have been on this list, I have enjoyed the information interchange and looked forward to reading the list daily. Unfortunately, I will no longer have access to a computer on a continual basis. As far as normal email, My oldest son will still be at this workstation to receive and relay email for me. I will truely miss the threads and tales from this listserv as well as the rodmakers who post them. Hopefully, I will have my shop moved and back in operation within a short period. I will try to get back on line and let you all know where I am. Tight Lines... RL Bob Nunley, Rodmaker Bob,Sorry to see you leaving the list, even if only temporarily.If your friends can do anything to be of help, please let us know.Ron Griffithaka: Wind knot from Mikael.Marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.SE Tue Oct 15 15:57:38 1996 15 Oct 96 23:01:13 MET DST 15 Oct 96 23:00:50 MET DSTComments: Authenticated sender is Subject: Twohanded rodsPriority: normal Has anyone american tapers for two-handed flyrods? There has been some builders in the US. I think that Payne made some, and wasn=B4t there a builder named F.E.Thomas? Please let me know if you got something.Greetings...---------------------------------------------------------------- Mikael Marklundmikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm from ThomasK797@aol.com Tue Oct 15 17:49:39 1996 Subject: Re: greenhart blanks Greenheart blanks are available as well as bamboo blanks from King of theHill. Sorry for the ad. Tom Kinghttp://www.kinghill.com from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Oct 15 18:18:39 1996 Subject: Re: TEST Bill,Yes, but it seems to be fixed now(10/14/96).Hank. from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Oct 16 08:50:04 1996 Subject: Re: Rod comparisons Wayne - Thanks for the reply. I take it you are suggesting that the shortcutmethod of weight calculation may not be too accurate. This is sort of what Isuspected, just from looking at the numbers. I assume that a method ofcalculating total volume of cane is already in Hexrod as part of the bamboomoments calculation. It might be an interesting output in future versions, ifdoing it isn't too difficult a task. I chose the 212 and the Para 15 for examples because they ARE verydifferent. In fact, I like them both and was not suggesting that the 212 is abetter design because the casting effort might be less in shorter distancesituations. I would probably choose the Para 15 in situations where longcasting is the order of the day. ( one of the few luxuries of being arodbuilder is being able to open a closet full of rods in the morning andmake that kind of decision. ) What I was trying to ask here, was whether ornot the total moments of a design was a good indicator of the effort requiredto cast that particular design.That is only one aspect of a design, and would have to be weighed in with theother aspects of design analysis you elaborated on in Roscoe. I think thatcasting effort as a design parameter is more important on larger rods. Belowa certain threshold, anyone can cast comfortably. When you start talkingabout 7-8-9 weight rods in longer lengths, you can easily get out of manypeople's comfort zone. Some method of quantifying that would seem to be auseful tool. - Tom Smithwick from hadn@chevron.com Wed Oct 16 16:26:00 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:48 -0700 Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:48 -0700 Subject: Rod Swap and Hardwood Rod Cases Encoding: 15 TEXT Ron Barch, of Planing Form fame, and I havecompleted a rod swap. I received an 8 ft 2 piece2 tip rod and I gave Ron an 8 ft. 3 piece 2 tip rod. Included in the swap Ron generously included a hexagonal cherrywood rod case. Which he made himself. When I opened the box and saw this fantastic rod case, I couldn't believe it! The rod is exceptional also, a real powerhouse with top of the line components, but what really impressed me was the case. It's a real nice light cherrywood with black walnut end caps, and very impressive. Ron is an exceptional craftsman. Darryl Hayashida from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Thu Oct 17 11:49:51 1996 Subject: RE: Cane Hi Darryl: The idea of using a heat gun to heat treat and flame the culm appeals to me. In some respects, I'd think this approach might be safer than using a propane torch. Can you tell me what the temperature range of the gun you're using is? Thanks. Rich Brown from hadn@chevron.com Thu Oct 17 13:36:11 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:36:03 -0700 Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:36:03 -0700 Subject: RE: Cane Encoding: 85 TEXT Hi Darryl: The idea of using a heat gun to heat treat and flame the culm appeals to me.In some respects, I'd think this approach might be safer than using a propane torch.Can you tell me what the temperature range of the gun you're using is? Thanks. Rich Brown This is a post I submitted a few months ago explaining how Iheat treat with a heat gun. The heat gun I use is an electronicallycontrolled, LED readout, two fan speed, high tech one I boughtat Sears for $100. You probably don't need to go that route, butI would get one that at least gets into to 850 to 1000 degree range. Darryl Previous post:I split a culm in half lengthwise, go outside and I use a barbecue tohold the culm at a convenient height. To do a whole half of a culm will probably take 40 to 50 minutes with the heat gun on high, sodon't be surprised when your electric bill arrives. I start in themiddleof the culm, in the middle of a section (I refer to the area betweennodes as a section), and work my way towards the ends. After starting in the middle of the middle section, work your way from the heated end (node) towards the end side of each section. Don't skip any sections, and don't skip any portion of a section, and don't "overrun" any areas, that is, move the heat gun over a section faster than you have done other sections. The effect you are trying to achieve is to drive the moisture out ahead of thepreviously heated area. You can either heat all the way to one end, then go back tothe middle and heat all the way to the other end, or you can alternate side to side until you reach both ends. Either way works fine. You heat the inside pith until it starts to scorch to a sort of "salt and pepper"appearance, moving the heat gun back and forth at about an inch a second until the pith scorches. Use a pliers and break away as muchof the inside diaphragm at each node as you can. It seems that theinsideridge left is more flammable than the rest of the pith. If it burstsinto flame,or starts glowing like a coal, just lick your finger and snuff it out,just likeputting out a candle. Pay a lot of attention to the node areas. On onerodI had a node area come out a lot softer which took a set easily. I thinkitmight have been due to not heating the node enough. Since it is thicker,it takes more heat to properly temper. Once the pith is scorched to the proper color you can heat the enamel side if you want a browned look. so be careful how you hold the culm, and where you grab it as you move it around. Take a look at the end of the culm just as you reach it withthe heat gun. You will probably see a lot of steam and liquid escaping outof the cut end. Also notice how that liquid tuns black as you heat it. Thisis the exact same appearance you get from roughed out splines when they get heat treated in an oven. If you want a flamed appearance, you can flame it later. If you do flame it, flame until you just get the color you want. At this pointthe flaming is just for color, not heat treatment. You can use the culm without flaming if you want a light colored rod. This heat treatment method lends itself to aggressive heat treatment with very little color change on the outside. By the way, don't use a propane torch to scorch theinside pith. A torch heats the surface too intensely and doesn't give the heat enough time to soak through. You end up burning the pith and not heat treating the power fibers. Another thing you will notice as you start splitting and planing, isthatthe heat treated splines are easier to work, the plane blades staysharp longer, and it seems to me that I have less trouble with liftsand chips at the nodes from what I read from other people complainingabout the trouble they have with nodes. I also heat and press the nodes,so this may also help. from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Thu Oct 17 15:04:17 1996 Subject: RE: Cane Thanks for the response, Darryl. I'll check the archives for your original posting. This sounds like an efficient way to heat treat and flame. Regards, Rich Brown from hadn@chevron.com Thu Oct 17 15:29:02 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:28:57 -0700 Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:28:57 -0700 Subject: RE: Cane Encoding: 12 TEXT Thanks for the response, Darryl. I'll check the archives for your originalposting. This sounds like an efficient way to heat treat and flame. Regards, Rich Brown No need to... I included the original post in my last post. Darryl Hayashida from jhward@montana.campus.mci.net Thu Oct 17 19:16:31 1996 Subject: Cane demand Dear Folks: My brother has operates an import business and has dealt with Chinaextensively. He wondered what the market would be like for the importationof Tonkin bamboo for building rods. Is the market taken care of or isthere room for another importer on the west coast?In addition, what should he look for as far as quality bamboo whenhe is speaking to the chinese? What are the qualities of raw bamboo thatare desireable when building a rod and what should one avoid in bamboo? Iwould appreciate your feedback. Take Care, Jeffjhward.montana@montana.campus.mci.net from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Sat Oct 19 03:51:35 1996 Subject: Test I have not been gettting many post i have sent to similar post and havenot seen them could someone please respond if this makes itGerald (Jerry) Johnsongjflyfsh@uwyo.edu from bberry@terranet.net Sat Oct 19 06:37:25 1996 (post.office MTA v1.9.1 ID# 0-16231) with SMTP id AAA90 Subject: Computes & Rodmaking To all; Buying a new computer and rodmaking sure cut into the rodmakingtime. I've spent the last couple of week just setting up this compute. All work. Sorry to hear Bob Nunley was off the list, I have assumed we werealmost neighbors. I hope he is back on in the near future. I would like some details about Greyrock 97, the date, what flies are goodduring the time (I tie flies mostly in the winter)and are there any goodcampgrounds in the area. I hoping next year to do the Ausable double crown,fish the Ausable in Mich and New York. Good to be back on the Rodmakers list Bob Berry (Flatland Fly Fisher) ps. Thanks to Ron Barch, I think were caught up now from bruno8@primenet.com Sat Oct 19 08:37:28 1996 Organization: Fatherhood/Brotherhood Subject: Re: Test Jerry: Last last night I received 2 messages from wustl., Thurs. night3, and Wed. night 3. Do these jive with your e-mail box or anybodyelse out there who reads the posts? I think I experienced a black-outlast weekend as I received no messages from last Fri. through Sunday.I know a couple of the others guys were having trouble last week aswell. Also, I have received no other TEST messages from you. I hope theserver's not melting down. Please respond and maybe we can compairnotes. Anybody else out there can respond as well would help forcertain. Thanks.Bill from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Sat Oct 19 09:36:39 1996 Subject: Re: Test Jerry: Last last night I received 2 messages from wustl., Thurs. night3, and Wed. night 3. Do these jive with your e-mail box or anybodyelse out there who reads the posts? I think I experienced a black-outlast weekend as I received no messages from last Fri. through Sunday.I know a couple of the others guys were having trouble last week aswell. Also, I have received no other TEST messages from you. I hope theserver's not melting down. Please respond and maybe we can compairnotes. Anybody else out there can respond as well would help forcertain. Thanks.Bill Bill, I have been experiencing the same. At first I thought the list had sloeddown but it appears there may be some problem. Sure hope things get backup and going, I am missing the posts. Jim Fillpot from jfoster@gte.net Sat Oct 19 10:07:55 1996 Subject: [Fwd: sad story] Subject: sad story Dear sir, I walked into a fly shop here in denver and spied a beautiful 7ft #4 weight rod bambo of course. I bought it after eyeing it for many months it was on consignment...in other words the fly shop was attempting to help the rod maker out by just selling it for him. I paid for the rod and it was missing one of its tips. Well the rod maker lives in Conifer, Colorado and said he would have the tip made in 6 weeks and it is now its been five months he wont return phone calls either by me of the fly shop. Anyway I love his rod and have decided to build my own this winter and have purchased the Garrison/carmichael book. (The most recent edition) It blows my mind that and artist would trash his reputation like that. But perhaps I can build a rod that i can be proud of from my own hands. regard Bill Hensel from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Oct 19 14:06:35 1996 Subject: Grayrock 97 The Grayrock (Grayling) get together is June 20 - 21 of next year. Butbecause several come in earlier to fish there will a few activities going onbefore those dates. Besides the Rodmakers there is also a group from theCompuserve ff forum and they start arriving earlier that week. They are thereto fish and enjoy the benefits of single malt scotch. For the past coupleyears many of the locals have been providing fishing with their Ausableriverboats. So that the most number of folks can take advantage of thishospitality from week start to wednesday night we (the locals) concentrateon the FF group. This last year on thursday night a group of early arrivingRodmakers met at the Manistee for a picnic which included an evening 'float'of fishing. For this next year there is hope to better organize this thursday(June 19) night kick off picnic and fish.Then Friday (June 20) there will be the get together activities -formal and unformal activities ( volunteer ideas and requests are alwayswelcome). Then Friday night there are a couple of options - last year therewas a pizza party at the Clubhouse - Vic Edwards for a taste of Single Maltwith the FF group - or back to the river with the boats or many wadingopportunities. The talk was to do the same next year.Saturday (June 21) will see more of the same activities. Then Saturdaynight is TTBBBQ III - the social climax of the two get togethers.The idea began with Vic Edwards and Steve Southard wanting to bring agroup of 'friends' in to have a good time and to do some fishing. Then RonBarch came on board with the Rodmakers get together also that week(prevouslyit had been in PA). What some of us see with the get togethers is this - after you havebeen to six or seven of them you get to know the others and you know most ofthe information so they are becoming more of a social event - so some of the'after events' are becoming a big part of the weekend. And if all else failsthere is always the fishing. particular weekend 'should' (You know how that works) coinside with the Hexhatch. The Hex is the giant Michigan mayfly. And to add excitement to it allit is fished after dark. Bob for practice - shut off the lights in thebedroom - hide in the closet and pretend your fishing. O! by the way the hookat the end could be as large as a #2/0 - 8x extended (Sam's Sex a Mania).Other local (non - hex )patterns are Robert's Yellow Drake - Cornie's Quill -Borcher's Special (drake).Sorry but floats with Dan Tooman (aka 'Dunkin Dan' have been spokenfor) Wayne from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Oct 19 15:12:49 1996 Subject: Grayrock 97 (cont) To continue a bit - as I said in the previous post several of the grouphave made most of the gatherings but for those that haven't here are some ofthe ideas that have happened at past events:Nodeless construction and toolingSharpening techniquesHarold Demarest talk on bamboo and slides of ChinaComputer rod designHands on demos of different techniques (one went until 4:00 am)Demos of Power mills - George Maurer and Al MedvedAlot of rods to test cast A guess of what present of attendees have actually made a rod is about60% - so there is a need for intro information. Some of the thoughts for thisnext year are:A sharp - o - rama (as Chris calls it) a chance to actually try thedifferent sharpening methodsI am putting together a slide presentation on the Ausable riverboats(for friday night pizza party?)There will probably be a computer or two on hand to try the differentprograms - perhaps a file (rod taper) collection and swap - BYOD (Bring YourOwn Disk)Samples of some micro brew beer (Mike -aka List Guy & Kim Fairchild)Last year Sam Surre gave a tying demo - Larry Blan did a deerhair mouseor two (Luis Marden can report on there use in Labador)- They will be thereagain Talk was to have a logoed shop apron for each attendee Perhaps what is needed is input from the group that plans on attendingas to what they want to see and do - from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Oct 19 16:09:06 1996 Subject: Grayrock 97 (cont) again Another special person that has been involved with the get togethers isLuis Marden. For those not familiar with the name - Luis started working forthe National Geographic in 1934 - his first article was published Dec - 1936.Luis has always loved bamboo rods and made his first in 1943 in the apartmentthat he and his wife Ethel had at the time. As instruction Luis used Dr.Holdens book and the rod was made using 64th of an inch. Among this otheraccomplishments while working for the Geographic are his discovery of theremain of the H.M.S. Bounty and an article on bamboo that was published inthe Oct 1980 issue. Luis has a few more surprises for us rodmakers which willbe in place by Grayrock 97.Over the years Luis has become a special friend of mine - I have had theopportunity to sit with him for hours and talk and listen to his many talesof life that he has seen. On Janurary 25 th Luis will celebrate 84 and as Ileft Luis with Bob Summers a month ago it was "God willling and healthprevailing I'll be in Grayling again next year"Doug Hall and I have had the conversation that someday there will bethose that can't join in anymore. And in that light Doug and I talked ofvideoing conversations with the groups senior members so that when the daycomes that God calls them home that they can live on through a video tapelibrary. Personally I have those videos now but the talk was to create alibrary for use by the different groups about the country. And it doesn'thave to be limited to just the senior member - it could also be done on alldemos. That way even if a small group wanted to get together they could makeuse of the library to see information that otherwise might not be available. ??????? Wayne from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Sat Oct 19 19:36:24 1996 Subject: test & cane splitting Thanks to all who responded to the test i received 8 post today don't understand unless everyone is quiet. my original question comes from mypurchase of the "Wise Fishermans Encyclopedia" in which McClane sets outa techinique for splitting the culm with a table saw. has this been triedwhat are the advantages or disadvantages. being a newbie and not havingsplit a culm using a a froe intimidates meThanksJerry gjflyfsh@uwyo.edu from bconner@cybercom.net Sat Oct 19 20:08:03 1996 Subject: Re: test & cane splitting McClane sets outa techinique for splitting the culm with a table saw. has this been triedwhat are the advantages or disadvantages. being a newbie and not havingsplit a culm using a a froe intimidates me What McClane is doing is merely sawing the cane, not splitting it. Thereis a difference! Splitting follows the fibres of the cane closely andresults in a pices which has fibres running parallel to the edges. If, onthe other hand, you saw the cane, you may or may not have fibers runningthis way. They may tend to wander off to one side. The result is a splinewith many more "ends" happening on one side of the taper. Each of theseends is a potential spot for a new split or break to start. Think aboutit. And long, continuous fibers running as much of the the length of thespline as possible ar a good idea. At least this is the accepted wisdom. Being a maker of nodelss style rods,I have to say that the effect of full length splitting (as opposed tosawing) is more for aesthetic value rather than mechanical strength.However, I *do* split my pieces that I splice! Most of the majormanufacturers of cane rods saw rather than split and the beveler or millingmachine they use to make the splines doesn't have any particular reason tofollow the grain either. This is what makes it a fun hobby, everybody has their own ideas aboutwhat's right and what's not. A lot of ways work just fine and you can makea rod that casts better than you do (if you are me, anyway) without toomuch fuss. The taper is much more important than the sawing/splittingconundrum. Dont be afraid to split your cane, it's just not that hard. The main thingto remember is that to get a straight split, you have to be bending thematerial on both sides the SAME amount away from the center of the split.If you have equal sized pieces on either side of the split, it's prettyeasy. If you try to split a thin piece off of a wide one, the wide onewill not bend enough and the thin one will run out in a taper. Once you seehow it works, you'll have it down cold. Too bad Wayne can't include somesort of mind transfer thing in his book so you could have a premade notion.;') Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Oct 19 21:49:44 1996 Subject: Re: test & cane splitting Jerry -Perhaps it's one of those avoidance things - just like instead of beingat the keyboard I should be in the basement with a camera - it seems that myartistic talent got stagnant somewhere during kindergarten - so I try toavoid it.The toss between split or sawn strips goes way back - Bruce covered theplus and minus of it. The only thing I wrote to add is that the more fiberends the more chance of chipout.Flaming the culm will make it split more crisply - beyond that it is apractice thing - just one of many to come. But if you really want to saw the strips here is a secret - Split theculm to 12ths then using a band saw do the following - mount a bearing on anarm so that it can be used asa rip fence. Then adjust to the width strips youwant - then using the split edge against the bearing saw the strips - becauseyou are sawing equal thickness strips the blade follows the 'grain' - afterthe first cut flip the piece and again using the split edge as a guide cut asecond piece.I don't think too many use this technique - it's too slow - splittingwith a froe is far simpler. As the commercial says 'just do it' - If you wantsome scrap culms to try it with e-mail me an adress and I'll UPS you somepractice stock - That offer goes to anyone on the list that might want some.Now for the tough question - does anyone really understand expansionand contraction in the zone system???? Wayne from plipton@sunvalley.net Sat Oct 19 22:30:35 1996 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11203) with SMTP id AAA409 Organization: Sun Valley Rods Subject: Re: Test GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU wrote: I have not been gettting many post i have sent to similar post and havenot seen them could someone please respond if this makes itGerald (Jerry) Johnsongjflyfsh@uwyo.edu Jerry, Bill, Jim: I'm having the same problem. Are the postings just that slow? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Philip Lipton,Sun Valley RodsPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726- 9559, 208-726-0191 Fax ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from plipton@sunvalley.net Sat Oct 19 22:38:12 1996 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11203) with SMTP id AAA324 Organization: Sun Valley Rods Subject: Re: Grayrock 97 (cont) again Wayne: I like the idea. Some of us can't be there but would like to share someof the experience. Even for those who are there, you can't be everywhereat once. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Philip Lipton,Sun Valley RodsPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726- 9559, 208-726-0191 Fax ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from flyh2o@mtsi.com Sun Oct 20 10:10:43 1996 Subject: Re: test & cane splitting Now for the tough question - does anyone really understand expansionand contraction in the zone system???? Wayne Not well enough to discuss it in anything other than very general terms, butyou might try "The Practical Zone System", Chris Johnson, Focal Press, "TheZone System for 35 MM Photographers", Carson Graves, Focal Press, "Zone VIWorkshop", Fred Picker, Amphoto, and of course the classic "The New ZoneSystem Manual", White, Zakia and Lorenz, Morgan and Morgan. Zakia andDowdell also put out something called the"Zone Systemizer for creativephotographic control" which is a set of tools and a system to make it work,with or without a clear understanding of the process, sort of like cookingsolely from a recipe book with no understanding of the ingredients Mike Leitheiser from flyh2o@mtsi.com Sun Oct 20 10:15:35 1996 Subject: Heddon #115 Have Heddon #115, 2F ferrule, 8 1/2 ft Heddon intended a 6 I believe, butworks best with a DT 5. Rod has been totally refinished, fished once sincerefinish, reel seat and handle not original. Any interest in a trade/sale? Mike Leitheiser from Mikael.Marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.SE Sun Oct 20 15:32:28 1996 20 Oct 96 22:36:23 MET DST 20 Oct 96 22:36:10 MET DSTComments: Authenticated sender is Subject: Twohanded rods?Priority: normal I=B4m very interested in tapers for twohanded US rods. Payne and F.E. Thomas made some twohanded rods. I=B4ve heard that they were very good flyrods. Isn=B4t there anyone with some information? Please mail me... ------ ----------------------------------------------------------Mikael Marklundmikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm from rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com Mon Oct 21 07:54:13 1996 Subject: Test ----- Begin Included Message ----- from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sat Oct 19 04:53:30 1996 Subject: Test Content-Length: 173 I have not been gettting many post i have sent to similar post and havenot seen them could someone please respond if this makes itGerald (Jerry) Johnsongjflyfsh@uwyo.edu ----- End Included Message ----- Yes, I got your message. -Bob Matarazzo from oborge@aiss.uic.edu Mon Oct 21 08:05:14 1996 Subject: RE: Test Encoding: 38 TEXT I got it in Chicago....................... ---------- From:rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com[SMTP:rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com]Sent: Monday, October 21, 1996 7:54 AM Subject: Test ----- Begin Included Message ----- from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sat Oct 19 04:53:30 1996 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Subject: TestMime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.1 -- ListProcessor by CRENContent-Length: 173 I have not been gettting many post i have sent to similar post and havenot seen them could someone please respond if this makes itGerald (Jerry) Johnsongjflyfsh@uwyo.edu ----- End Included Message ----- Yes, I got your message. -Bob Matarazzo from wang@cel.cummins.com Mon Oct 21 08:12:45 1996 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Grayrock 97 (cont) On Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:12:47 -0400, WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: To continue a bit - as I said in the previous post several of the grouphave made most of the gatherings but for those that haven't here are some ofthe ideas that have happened at past events:Nodeless construction and toolingSharpening techniquesHarold Demarest talk on bamboo and slides of ChinaComputer rod designHands on demos of different techniques (one went until 4:00 am)Demos of Power mills - George Maurer and Al MedvedAlot of rods to test cast A guess of what present of attendees have actually made a rod is about60% - so there is a need for intro information. Some of the thoughts for thisnext year are:A sharp - o - rama (as Chris calls it) a chance to actually try thedifferent sharpening methodsI am putting together a slide presentation on the Ausable riverboats(for friday night pizza party?)There will probably be a computer or two on hand to try the differentprograms - perhaps a file (rod taper) collection and swap - BYOD (Bring YourOwn Disk)Samples of some micro brew beer (Mike -aka List Guy & Kim Fairchild)Last year Sam Surre gave a tying demo - Larry Blan did a deerhair mouseor two (Luis Marden can report on there use in Labador)- They will be thereagain Talk was to have a logoed shop apron for each attendee Perhaps what is needed is input from the group that plans on attendingas to what they want to see and do - As a rookie of rodmaker, I just have no idea of what you talking about when you guys mentioning of Para 15, Para 17... May be somebody can put together a brief presentation of history of bamboo rods for the beginers?Simon from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Mon Oct 21 08:22:58 1996 Subject: David Parker Dave, I need your email address to send messages (tapers). Your server doesn'tinclude it. Can you recieve attachments? Are you running Excel? Don Sorry for the BW folks. from RHeller@swri.edu Mon Oct 21 12:39:55 1996 Subject: re: Re: test & cane splitting Wayne, I am one of those individuals who "think" a long time before getting into something. Unfortunately, wrt rod building, I have thought so long that several culms of cane have been in my garage now for over a year. If you would, I would be delighted to have a practice culm to try prior to ruining those I already have. I would be glad to reimburse you for the cost of shipping... Robert Heller211 East HermosaSan Antonio, TX 78212 Thanks.-.Robert.-RHeller@SwRI.Edu from RHeller@swri.edu Mon Oct 21 12:50:15 1996 Subject: re: Re: test & cane splitting List members: Boy do I feel stupid. I inadvertantly responded to the whole list instead of directly to Wayne. I know better -- I just got excited and careless. Please accept my apologies for wasting your time not once, but twice. Once Again my apologies.-.Robert.-RHeller@SwRI.Edu from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Oct 21 20:32:48 1996 Subject: Re: RE: Test I got it, also. There have been 2 periods when the system seemed to fail butit seems to work now.Hank W. from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Oct 21 22:06:13 1996 Subject: Ok - So We'll Make It A Week few phone calls and e-mails and having my arm twisted there has been a changein the unofficial schedule. I have been told (by several) that a weekend issimply not enough for some and that a few of the attendees (those exhibitingtrue trout bum spirit) will be there on or before the monday preceeding theweekend get together. I'll avoid the harsh comments used by others oflessening testicular circumference with only wanting to do a weekend. Butwill say that if anyone is thinking that they want to come earlier to do somefishing in the Grayrock Triangle (Spike's - The Clubhouse - The River) therewill be several there to share in the festivities. from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Tue Oct 22 09:42:28 1996 Subject: ferrules Hi,I've just made a whole bunch of nickel silver ferrules (to all those who advised against making them, you're right, it is too much trouble but at $60 Aust a ferrule I just had to give it a go) and I've struck a hitch at a point I didn't expect, as is always the way.Does anybody know how the tabs are cut? A hack saw'd just cave the hole in. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Tony Young from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Tue Oct 22 11:04:10 1996 Subject: Re: test & cane splitting Bruce: Thank you for that beautiful explanation of splitting cane vs sawing cane. The logic makes perfect sense. I believe your explanation exceeds that I've read anywhere, so far. Regards, Rich Brown from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Tue Oct 22 12:03:54 1996 Subject: Actions I have built 2 rods both from Waynes 7' 4wt taper. Every one that hascast them loves them. But I keep hearing of the parabolic tapers ect. andrecently had the oppertunity to cast a rod from a local builder that castmuch smoother that the 7' wts. In a post I think Wayne had mentioned thatthere are only 4 actions with buiders just making minor adjustments. Can any one explain the different actions, advantages- disadvatages of each? Thanks Jim Fillpot from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Tue Oct 22 14:18:05 1996 Subject: Re: ferrules Hi,I've just made a whole bunch of nickel silver ferrules (to all those whoadvised against making them, you're right, it is too much trouble but at$60 Aust a ferrule I just had to give it a go) and I've struck a hitch ata point I didn't expect, as is always the way.Does anybody know how the tabs are cut? A hack saw'd just cave the hole in. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Tony Young Tony, I might recommend a jeweler's saw, which has a blade about as thick as a humanhair. They are designed to cut metal while removing little material, which iswhat you want in this case to maintain strength. When new, they are prettysharp and probably (maybe) won't collapse the tabs. Good luck, though, I cansee the problem. If that doesn't work, there is always light amplification bystimulated emission of . . . . -- Mark M. Freed freedmar@pilot.msu.edu from LANE@dsa.unt.edu Tue Oct 22 14:56:05 1996 Tue, 22 Oct 96 14:56:01 -600 Subject: Re: ferrulesPriority: normal Hello all, I'm in search of some "Burnt Orange" (similar to rust color, only a shade browner) silk or nylon thread. I haven't found the exact color yet, but have only been able to try to decipher the colors from color charts in catalogs (i.e. Angler's workshop) and I'm aware that these are not exact due to printing errors. If any of you know of a source or have first hand experience with this color, please contact me with the information! Thanks emmmmmensely! Tim Lane@DSA.UNT.EDU from JCZIMNY@dol.net Tue Oct 22 16:06:07 1996 Subject: Re: ferrules Tony Young wrote: Hi,I've just made a whole bunch of nickel silver ferrules (to all those whoadvised against making them, you're right, it is too much trouble but at$60 Aust a ferrule I just had to give it a go) and I've struck a hitch ata point I didn't expect, as is always the way.Does anybody know how the tabs are cut? A hack saw'd just cave the hole in. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Tony YoungTony,I cut the serrations on a milling machine with a .010/mil jewler's slitting saw. The ferrule is mounted in a 5C collet that is in turn mounted in an indexing fixture. Once collet is centered on saw, it is a simple to rotate the piece 120 degrees cutting two serrations at one time. One could fab some sort sort of holding fixture with pre-cut slits to make a hand- held jeweler's saw stable.Good LuckJohn from FFer4trout@aol.com Tue Oct 22 18:25:49 1996 Subject: McCorsky's Spar Varnish? My local ACE Hardware store is biting the big bullet. Selling everything off. There's a couple of gallons of McCorsky's (sp?) Gloss Spar Varnish left @~$25.00. Has anyone has used this brand and have they had good results. Theseare nice old dusty cans too. Don Burns from jfoster@gte.net Tue Oct 22 20:29:50 1996 Subject: Re: test & cane splitting Bruce , Rich, any need More info..I certainly don't want to start a flaming thing but I have somequestions about this spitting thing. My meager experience has been thatwhen a culm is intact the power fibers run in straight lines? True?..The tendency when splitting is for them to veer at the nodes. When thisdeviation takes place i'm never sure that i am not actually splittingacross the grain,as it were. In investigating the nodal areas..do weknow that an individual p fiber is really contiguous through the lengthof the culm or does each node act as a rebirthing point for a whole setof new pfibers.which would describe why nodeless construction is evendesirable.While being a splitter , I have pondered if sawing does not result inless pfiber damage. The fact that pressure can cause the split todeviate from it's straight course could make me believe that once thesplit is off course that all successive splits based on that edge willcross the grain of the pfibers. jerry from bruno8@primenet.com Tue Oct 22 21:38:55 1996 Organization: Fatherhood/Brotherhood Subject: Re: McCorsky's Spar Varnish? Dan: I've got a tube full of McClosky's Man-O-War spar varnish that I useon certain rods. This stuff is legendary, and unfortunately, becauseof new VOC laws being adopted in certain areas of the country, theformula may be changing for good. Its kinda thick like most oilvarnishes out of the can, and I have used gum spirits of turpentine andPenetrol to thin it to taste. Its also a beautifulhoney color and darkens the cane just ever so slightly, old world, in myopinion.This varnish (if its the old formula) has a long shelf life, and if youput your rod into the bag shortly after the stuff cures, it will leavethe bag with a pungentoil odor thats quit distinctive. I would probably snap these cans upif I lived were you do, but I also think that you should get some moreopinions about this varnish before you take my word to the bank. However,I love Man-O-War varnish and endorse its use. Bill from plipton@sunvalley.net Tue Oct 22 23:26:57 1996 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11203) with SMTP id AAA402 Organization: Sun Valley Rods Subject: Re: McCorsky's Spar Varnish? Bill Cooper wrote: Dan: I've got a tube full of McClosky's Man-O-War spar varnish that I useon certain rods. This stuff is legendary, and unfortunately, becauseof new VOC laws being adopted in certain areas of the country, theformula may be changing for good. Its kinda thick like most oilvarnishes out of the can, and I have used gum spirits of turpentine andPenetrol to thin it to taste. Its also a beautifulhoney color and darkens the cane just ever so slightly, old world, in myopinion.This varnish (if its the old formula) has a long shelf life, and if youput your rod into the bag shortly after the stuff cures, it will leavethe bag with a pungentoil odor thats quit distinctive. I would probably snap these cans upif I lived were you do, but I also think that you should get some moreopinions about this varnish before you take my word to the bank.However,I love Man-O-War varnish and endorse its use.Bill Bill: I am thinking about using spar varnish instead of poly urethane for allthe reasons you mention. What about durability? Have you had a finishedrod "melt down"? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Philip Lipton,PO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726-9559, 208-726- 0191 Fax ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from DIXALEE@aol.com Wed Oct 23 00:50:44 1996 Subject: Re: ferrules In a message dated 96-10-22 10:52:39 EDT, you write: Hi,I've just made a whole bunch of nickel silver ferrules (to all those who advised against making them, you're right, it is too much trouble but at $60 Aust a ferrule I just had to give it a go) and I've struck a hitch at a point I didn't expect, as is always the way.Does anybody know how the tabs are cut? A hack saw'd just cave the hole in. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Tony Young Tony,If the ferrule has been tapered properly it is easy work to use a pair ofscissors. A slight V shaped cut tends to taper smoother.A.J.Thramer from bruno8@primenet.com Wed Oct 23 01:03:01 1996 Organization: Fatherhood/Brotherhood Subject: Re: McCorsky's Spar Varnish? Philip Lipton wrote:Have you had a finished rod "melt down"? Hi Phil: I've never had a rod melt down, but I've only been dipping in spar a rod to that point, (left one in the trunk of my car in the MojaveDesert town I live in during the summer...). I have restored a numberof rods that were melted down however, and I believe that this processmust take a considerable time to happen. The last one was a Heddon BBthat had spent a number of years in a fellow's garage enduring 105+summers. (Input on the meltdown phenom. from the ol'pro's is welcome).One thing I feel you should be aware of though, it has been myexperience that oil varnishes take a considerable amount of time tocure to a trustworthy "hardness". That is, they tend to stay soft way beyond that. However, they finish off deep and rich, they rub outwell if you choose to do so, they repair nicely, they dont send mescreaming for an O 2 bottle when I use them, and they do have that oldworld charm.Nuff Said...Regards,Bill from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Oct 23 08:43:27 1996 Subject: Re: test & cane splitting Jerry - Stay away from sawing strips. You will find planing a sawn strip muchmore difficult because of the cross grain. The reason the splits tend to veernear the node is that the fibers often veer here also and the split isfollowing the fibers, as it is supposed to do. This is caused by a slightspiral twist as the cane was growing. This spiraling can be more pronouncedin some culms, so they are not all necessarily straight grained. If you lookat production rods with sawn strips you will often see the cross grain at thenodes. Would you buy a Louisville Slugger with cross grain? Yes, eachinternodal section has its own fibers, the bump at the node is caused by theinterlocking of the fibers. I also suspect that a well made splice isstronger than a treated node. On the other hand, I have only seen one failednode in twenty years of working on cane rods, and a photographers lamp fellon that rod. - Tom Smithwick from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Wed Oct 23 09:58:31 1996 (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA190682581; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:56:22 -0700 Organization: r-5113 Subject: list cancell subscribtion patrick coffey from hadn@chevron.com Wed Oct 23 11:27:28 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Wed, 23 Oct 1996 09:27:23 -0700 Wed, 23 Oct 1996 09:27:23 -0700 Subject: RE: Actions Encoding: 120 TEXT I have built 2 rods both from Waynes 7' 4wt taper. Every one that hascast them loves them. But I keep hearing of the parabolic tapers ect. andrecently had the oppertunity to cast a rod from a local builder that castmuch smoother that the 7' wts. In a post I think Wayne had mentioned thatthere are only 4 actions with buiders just making minor adjustments. Can any one explain the different actions, advantages- disadvatages of each? Thanks Jim Fillpot I was hoping someone more knowledgeable would reply, and I still am, butmaybe I can get things rolling. First, I hope most people reading this will have an understanding ofstresscurves, because using a stress curve is the best way I know of tographicallyrepresent a rod action. Second, using spaces and asterisks is the only way I can show a graphsinceeveryone on the list is going to have different systems and texteditors. If thegraphs look funny to you it's probably because the spacing on your textreaderis different than mine. Here goes.... A Garrison stress curve looks like this:| * | * * * * | * * * * | * * * * * | * * * * * | * * * * | * | * | * | * | * | * |* |* | | ________________________________________________ It is generally characterized as being very slow andflexes down into the corks. Advantage of this designis lighter weight. The bamboo is thinner down by the handle. Some people like this taper. I do not. It'sway too slow for my casting style. The stress curve of a Wayne Cattanach taper that Ireally like and is the same as the 7 ft 4 wt mentionedabove looks like this: | * * | * * | * * | * * | * * | * * | * * | * * * | * * * * * * * * * * | * | * | * | * | * |* |* ________________________________________________ This rod is fast, with a delicate tip action and a strong mid and butt section. What I would calla dry fly action. The Paul Young Para series of rods look like this: | * * * * | * * * * | * * * | * * * | * * * | * * * | * * * | * * * | * * * | * | * | * | * | * | * | ________________________________________________ I have not casted one of these rods, my next projectis going to be making one of these to see what they are like. I have read on this list that one of theserods will cast a full fly line and into the backingif you want to. All of the other stress curves I have graphed are variations and/or combinations of these three. Anybody wish to join in? Please do so. Darryl Hayashida from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Wed Oct 23 12:06:38 1996 Subject: Richard Tyree To all, Anyone know what happened to Richard Tyree. Have tried email direct -- noreturn so expect I'm getting through. Haven't seen him on the list for acoon's age. Help!!! Don A from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Oct 23 12:35:38 1996 Subject: Re: test & cane splitting Jerry,I usually restart my split on the far side of the node from my originalsplit. I find if I don't, the split "walks" thru the node to one side or theother, which makes me believe that the node fibers are either noncontiguousor at best badly twisted. I think the split/saw controversy will continue aslong as there are cane rod makers. One thought: after splitting , when weplane we cut across the fibers anyway, hopefully equally on each side of thestick. Of course that doesn't always happen which means sawing may not be sodreadfull after all. I'll still split any way. Hope this helps(I'm stillconfused). :)Hank. from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Wed Oct 23 12:52:27 1996 Subject: Re: Richard Tyree I breifly exchanged some email with Richard not too long ago.He is temporarily off the list due to busy times. He promisesto return soon... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Oct 23 12:53:09 1996 Subject: Re: Richard Tyree Don,I've been wondering where Richard has been, too. If anyone knows(inludingRichard), let us know.Hank, from GDAVIS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU Wed Oct 23 13:06:49 1996 Subject: nodes While I was an undergraduate biology major at George Washington U.in the late sixties, I worked part-time as a technician at theSmithsonian Institution's Department of Botany. One of my projectswas to make serial slices through an inch worth of node and internoderegion of several stems and then make a movie built up ofphotomicrographs of the sections (of which there were often more thana thousand). Playing that flick let you travel up the stem as youpassed through a node. In all cases studied, many of the vascularbundles in the region of the nodes branched, sending divisions into theleaves. Furthermore, there was considerable bending and weaving ofthe bundles in the node. That bending stopped as the bundles enteredthe internode. All this bending was microscopic; I doubt that anyfibers wandered more than 2 mm. Although none of the plants Isectioned were bamboo, I would be surprised if its nodes were muchdifferent. What this means to rodmakers, I leave to the moreexperienced among us.Grayson Davis from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Oct 23 14:30:08 1996 Subject: Young rod I recently received a 8 1/2 young rod to restore. It has an all cork gripwith a ring and cap seat. The grip is a fairly typical Young reverse taperwith a large thumb relief. The word "special" is stamped in ink just abovethe grip. The ferrule looks like an original and is a #15. One tip is labeled"Dry Fly", and the other "Wet Fly". The cane is flamed, but looks lighterthan most Young's I have seen. The wrappings and guides have seen some 1/2assed repairs and I am not sure what is original. The thread looks like thejava beige that Payne used. but some wraps are better done than others andthere are 3 different kinds of guides on the rod. The wrappings are allembellished with a three wrap open spiral, leading to a 1/16" trim ring. Therod feels sort of like a Para 15, but is 8 1/2 feet long. Naturally, I'd liketo restore it to the original appearance. Can anyone give me any guidancehere? Specifically, I'd like to know what the correct thread and guidesshould be. Thanks - Tom Smithwick from hood@hpesdah.fc.hp.com Wed Oct 23 17:34:38 1996 (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA224780068; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:34:28 -0700 (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA16978; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:34:28 -0600 Subject: Line Weights? What line weights (and lengths) are the para15/17 tapers that were recentlyposted designed for? thanks,Davidhood@fc.hp.com from hadn@chevron.com Wed Oct 23 17:55:21 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:55:17 -0700 Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:55:17 -0700 Subject: RE: Line Weights? Encoding: 11 TEXT What line weights (and lengths) are the para15/17 tapers that were recentlyposted designed for? Well, running it through my spreadsheet, 50 ft. of 6 wt brings thestresscurve to 190,000 oz-in for the Para 15. So I would say 5 wt if you are adistance caster, or 6 wt if you are a mere mortal. Darryl Hayashida from jonrc@atlantic.net Wed Oct 23 19:00:54 1996 Subject: Re: Grayrock 97 (cont) again What a great idea, Wayne!-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from jonrc@atlantic.net Wed Oct 23 19:13:08 1996 Subject: Re: Actions -- Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn) wrote: I was hoping someone more knowledgeable would reply, and I still am, butmaybe I can get things rolling. First, I hope most people reading this will have an understanding ofstresscurves, because using a stress curve is the best way I know of tographicallyrepresent a rod action. Second, using spaces and asterisks is the only way I can show a graphsinceeveryone on the list is going to have different systems and texteditors. If thegraphs look funny to you it's probably because the spacing on your textreaderis different than mine. Here goes.... Good job Darryl, it's had to explain strees graphs in this format, butwhat you related is simular to my views of the graphs and there values.If there is enough interest I would be willing to post some stressgraphs at my web site. Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Oct 23 21:26:13 1996 Subject: Re: Line Weights? The Keller version of the Para - 15 is a solid #6 weight - The 8' 0" -#6 in my book is a variation that I derived. At the second get together inHarrisburg I saw Frank Erlicher ( from Louisanna) cast to 117' with only 2false casts with a rod I made for my friend Sam Surre (book cover) - even awhimp like myself can put the rod (#6) to the backing. Sam uses the rod forthe west and as a 'Hex' rod to push some of his more wind resistant ties.Miles Tiernan uses it as a bass rod locally.The 8 1/2' version of the Para - 17 is an #8 weight - Wayne from lblan@oeonline.com Wed Oct 23 21:43:01 1996 (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0vGFW2-0003glC; Wed, 23 Oct 96 22:27 EDT Subject: Re: Line Weights? Yes! The Force is awesome. ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com Subject: Re: Line Weights?Date: Wednesday, October 23, 1996 10:26 PM The Keller version of the Para - 15 is a solid #6 weight - The 8'0" -#6 in my book is a variation that I derived. At the second get togetherinHarrisburg I saw Frank Erlicher ( from Louisanna) cast to 117' with only 2false casts with a rod I made for my friend Sam Surre (book cover) - evenawhimp like myself can put the rod (#6) to the backing. Sam uses the rodforthe west and as a 'Hex' rod to push some of his more wind resistantties.Miles Tiernan uses it as a bass rod locally.The 8 1/2' version of the Para - 17 is an #8 weight - Wayne from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Oct 24 01:04:36 1996 Subject: Version 'B' There is now a version 'B' of Hex96 - It was prompted by Tom'squestion concerning rods weights. In the latest I added a routine that simplysums the bamboo weight in a proposed rod. Sorry Tom but it doesn't work tothe same number as dividing action length into bamboo moments. Here again thecomputer may not be spot on accurate - I am using Mr. Garrisons number forbamboo weight and it may need to be touched sightly. I will be testing it ona rod that I hope to have out of wraps this weekend. Now available from your favorite download point or e-mail for copy.Someday I really intend to catch up on creating files of all the tapers Ihave on hand to go with the program.Any other requests??? Wayne There are 11,378 reputable fish markets in the United States, any oneof them will sell you an armload of fish for a couple of dollars. This bookis decated to people who like to do it the hard way. - The dedication from EdZern's book 'How to Tell Fish from Fisherman' 1947 from tdnguyen@nortel.ca Thu Oct 24 05:03:50 1996 X400-Received: X400-Received: X400-Received: X400-Originator: /dd.id=1545061/g=thi/i=ttd/s=nguyen/@bnr.ca X400- MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/;bcars520.b.717:24.09.96.01.00.35] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Source for ba... Subject: Source for bamboo I did not see this message on rodmaker list. SO I am resending it.--------------- ------------------Hi everyone, This is the first time I post on this list. So I would like to say 'HI' toeveryone. I am currently live in Singapore. I moved here 4 months ago from Texas. Nowthings are settled down, I want to tie fly and build rods again. I want totry building a bamboo rod. My problem is how can I find some bamboo here in Singapore. I don't think shipping bamboo from the US to here is a good wayto get bamboo. I would like to hear any suggestions you may have. Cheers,Thi Nguyen from khube@benmeadows.com Thu Oct 24 07:03:15 1996 Subject: Slip-ring Reel Seats I need to revisit an old question on the list.............reel seat sources. I have a new 6'9" Garrison ready for hardware and I would like to find thetype of formed butt pocket-style cap that was used on the originals. It hasnothing to do with trying to be "authentic"...it has to do with not havingto flatten the cork on the bottom of the reel seat area to accomodate themachined cylindrical butt caps. None of the catalog listings I have showsuch layouts for light rods although there are plenty of handsome units ofthe cylindrical style. Anybody have any source ideas ? Karl Hube from jonrc@atlantic.net Thu Oct 24 07:34:48 1996 Subject: Re: Slip-ring Reel Seats Karl Hube wrote: I need to revisit an old question on the list.............reel seat sources. I have a new 6'9" Garrison ready for hardware and I would like to find thetype of formed butt pocket-style cap that was used on the originals. It hasnothing to do with trying to be "authentic"...it has to do with not havingto flatten the cork on the bottom of the reel seat area to accomodate themachined cylindrical butt caps. None of the catalog listings I have showsuch layouts for light rods although there are plenty of handsome units ofthe cylindrical style. Anybody have any source ideas ? Karl Hube David LaClair at The Fly Rod and Room has the nickle silver slide bandand "pocket" style butt cap. David's phone number is 315-689-7863.There is a picture of this slip ring and cap set at: http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc/Rod2.JPG. Struble also makes one that has formed sides and a machined butt plate.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from wlambers@mail.coin.missouri.edu Thu Oct 24 10:15:15 1996 Subject: Re: test & cane splitting On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Jerry Foster wrote: Bruce , Rich, any need More info..I certainly don't want to start a flaming thing but I have somequestions about this spitting thing. My meager experience has been thatwhen a culm is intact the power fibers run in straight lines? True?..The tendency when splitting is for them to veer at the nodes. When thisdeviation takes place i'm never sure that i am not actually splittingacross the grain,as it were. In investigating the nodal areas..do weknow that an individual p fiber is really contiguous through the lengthof the culm or does each node act as a rebirthing point for a whole setof new pfibers.which would describe why nodeless construction is evendesirable. It would seem that given the physiological function of the power fibers to the living plant, they would be contiguous through the nodes. Otherwise, there would be a problem with nutrient flow as the grass grows. While being a splitter , I have pondered if sawing does not result inless pfiber damage. The fact that pressure can cause the split todeviate from it's straight course could make me believe that once thesplit is off course that all successive splits based on that edge willcross the grain of the pfibers. jerry Bill Lamberson from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Oct 24 10:16:35 1996 Subject: Re: Version 'B' There is now a version 'B' of Hex96 - It was prompted by >Tom'squestion concerning rods weights. In the latest I added a >routine thatsimplysums the bamboo weight in a proposed rod.. Wayne - You are one ambitious person! I didn't expect such a quick response,but I think everyone will appreciate the extra bit of useful information. --Tom from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Thu Oct 24 10:32:14 1996 Subject: actions Darryl, Thanks for answering my post @ actions, but I am still some what puzzled. I understand the basic stress curves that you were showing. I have included the stress numbers of a 7'6" 4wt. rod I recently had the opportunity to cast. When I cast this rod I was very impressed with the smooth transfer of power to the line. Personally I am a very inexperienced at bamboo rod actions but this rod did not appear to me to be appreciably slower than the 7' 4wts that I have built. When I graphed out the stress curve I was very surprised. Looking at only the graph I would guess the rod to be very slow action, poss mildly parabolic? (just a guess) with a hinge right at the ferrule. Having only my rods to compare this rod to I was very surprised it did not seem slower. The main difference I felt when casting this rod was the smoothness, where my rods tend to have a bounce in the tip, which I feel most likely diminishes the power being transferred to the line. If any one out there can further enlighten me I would greatly appreciate their comments. 1.5 44113.25.0 105671.510.0 116379.715.0 130566.420.0 126731.225.0 111730.130.0 116385.835.0 121801.640.0 130390.845.0 140514.350.0 122272.655.0 129207.960.0 128680.265.0 135687.470.0 134379.875.0 143646.8 Thanks in advance, Jim Fillpot from hadn@chevron.com Thu Oct 24 11:20:49 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:20:44 -0700 Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:20:44 -0700 Subject: RE: actions Encoding: 38 TEXT Darryl, Thanks for answering my post @ actions, but I am still some what puzzled. I understand the basic stress curves that you were showing. I have included the stress numbers of a 7'6" 4wt. rod I recently had the opportunity to cast. When I cast this rod I was very impressed with the smooth transfer of power to the line. Personally I am a very inexperienced at bamboo rod actions but this rod did not appear to me to be appreciably slower than the 7' 4wts that I have built. When I graphed out the stress curve I was very surprised. Looking at only the graph I would guess the rod to be very slow action, poss mildly parabolic? (just a guess) with a hinge right at the ferrule. Having only my rods to compare this rod to I was very surprised it did not seem slower. The main difference I felt when casting this rod was the smoothness, where my rods tend to have a bounce in the tip, which I feel most likely diminishes the power being transferred to the line. If any one out there can further enlighten me I would greatly appreciate their comments. This is a very strange looking stress curve, and as you said,looking at it I would say that it is closest to a Garrison action.But, as I said in my previous post, some people really likethe Garrison taper. It's possible that the Garrison taper fitsyour casting style. My Dad was a miserable caster with agraphite rod. It just happened that I made a Wayne Cattanachtaper that fit his casting style. Now he casts like a pro. Soundslike we are talking about the same Cattanach taper (the 7ft 4wt).Watching my Dad I can see no bounce in the tip, and I have nowaves in the line when I use the same rod. Different folks, differentstrokes. Darryl Hayashida from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Thu Oct 24 11:37:43 1996 Subject: RE: actions First Jim seez... Thanks for answering my post @ actions, but I am still some what puzzled. I understand the basic stress curves that you were showing. I have included the stress numbers of a 7'6" 4wt. rod I recently had the opportunity to cast. And then Darryl seez... This is a very strange looking stress curve Yes, it does look strange. Jim, are you sure about your stressnumbers? How about posting the dimensions that you took off ofthe original rod... Mike - looking strangely - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Thu Oct 24 12:03:28 1996 Subject: RE: actions And then Darryl seez... This is a very strange looking stress curve Yes, it does look strange. Jim, are you sure about your stressnumbers? How about posting the dimensions that you took off ofthe original rod... Mike - looking strangely - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Mike, Below is the results from the Taper mail. Deminsions were averaged, Ihope this helps make sense of this rod. Inch Diam Tip Line Ferrule V&G Cane Stress0.0 0.0760 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.01.5 0.0790 2.6 0.0 0.0 0.01 0.0 44113.25.0 0.0890 8.6 0.0 0.0 0.11 0.2 105671.510.0 0.1100 17.2 0.2 0.0 0.38 0.8 116379.715.0 0.1230 25.8 0.3 0.0 0.80 2.2 130566.420.0 0.1390 34.4 0.6 0.0 1.38 4.4 126731.225.0 0.1590 43.0 1.0 0.0 2.12 7.8 111730.130.0 0.1700 51.6 1.4 0.0 3.02 12.6 116385.835.0 0.1800 60.2 1.9 0.0 4.07 19.1 121801.640.0 0.1880 68.8 2.4 0.0 5.29 27.4 130390.845.0 0.1950 77.4 3.1 0.0 6.65 37.8 140514.350.0 0.2190 86.0 3.8 5.4 8.18 50.7 122272.655.0 0.2290 94.6 4.6 10.8 9.86 66.3 129207.960.0 0.2430 103.2 5.5 16.2 11.70 84.9 128680.265.0 0.2520 111.9 6.4 21.6 13.70 107.0 135687.470.0 0.2660 120.5 7.5 27.0 15.86 132.7 134379.875.0 0.2730 129.1 8.6 32.4 18.17 162.5 143646.880.0 0.3200 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.0 Jim Fillpot from hadn@chevron.com Thu Oct 24 12:53:49 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:53:45 -0700 Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:53:45 -0700 Subject: RE: actions Encoding: 46 TEXT These are your original stress numbers: 1.5 44113.25.0 105671.510.0 116379.715.0 130566.420.0 126731.225.0 111730.130.0 116385.835.0 121801.640.0 130390.845.0 140514.350.0 122272.655.0 129207.960.0 128680.265.0 135687.470.0 134379.875.0 143646.8 Guessing at a 4 wt. line, this is what I get: 5 164863 10 235678 15 137660 20 132016 25 115447 30 119603 35 126876 40 157512 45 150569 50 127249 55 131842 60 129609 65 136155 70 136700 75 147741 80 106292 Most of them are in the same ball park, exceptthe 10 in. station, and graphing this up thestress curve strongly resembles the 8 ft. 4wt.AJ Thramer posted a couple of months ago. Darryl Hayashida from FFer4trout@aol.com Thu Oct 24 13:57:33 1996 Subject: WTD: Tip scarfing block Hi: I've got a couple of broken rods that need tip repairs. Does anyone make antip scarfing block like the one shown in the Garrison/Carmichael book on page224. Please e-mail me if you make them or have a used one for sale. Also, will Titebond II work enough for such a scraf joint? If not what glueshould I use. Thanks, Don Burns from vedwards@freeway.net Thu Oct 24 14:17:47 1996 Subject: Re: Varnish removal At 02:35 PM 10/3/96 +1100, you wrote:Victor Edwards wrote: OK every body, time for the typical "just finishing my first rod" type dumbquestions >g> Should you, or can you, wipe down a rod with tung oil first before dippingthe rod in polyurethane? Can you finish the rod completely off with just tung oil?Advantages/disadvantages? Thanks,Victor ------------------------------------------------------------ you think that question was dumb what about this one!! Why do you dip it in poly eurathane?Is it to act as a sealant a glue or what?What was used before poly eurathane and what the @#$% is a planning form? it sounds like a template of somekind sorry but Im new to all this split cane shickanery. Allen Allen-As someone who not very long ago did not know what a planing form was I donot find your question at all dumb. In the classes I teach I have only onerule, the only dumb question is the one you don't ask. Seems to pretty muchbe the attitude (as I see it) of the list here. Anyway, a planing form is about 5 feet long, and 3 or 4 inches wide &thick chunk of metal with a slot down the middle. The dimensions of the slotare adjustable. You put a strip of bamboo in the slot and hand plane it todimensions when making a bamboo rod. Others, as in almost everybody else >g from vedwards@freeway.net Thu Oct 24 14:17:57 1996 Subject: Re: Varnish removal At 07:54 PM 10/3/96 -0400, you wrote:At 01:57 PM 10/2/96 -0400, you wrote:OK every body, time for the typical "just finishing my first rod" type dumbquestions >g>Should you, or can you, wipe down a rod with tung oil first before dippingthe rod in polyurethane? Can you finish the rod completely off with just tung oil?Advantages/disadvantages? Thanks,Victor ------------------------------------------------------------Victor Edwardsvedwards@freeway.net Hi Vic,I always use tung oil on my rod blanks just after finish sanding. Imake sure to let them dry/cure for a few weeks before I dip varnish. Youcan check to see if the tung oil is dry with a blow dryer. When heat isapplied and the oil comes to the surface it needs more time. FIRST RODS ARE LIKE FIRST LOVES....YOU NEVER FORGET THEM!!!! Ron Barch> Ron-Thanks for the tip about the blow drier. It may seem dumb but I'm stillnot sure if you can put tung oil on the rod first and then put on apoyurethane finish. PS: Be looking at your calendar for next year. Besides the TBBBQ we need toschedule some fishing time. I'll have the boat ready by then and we can tryit out. ------------------------------------------------------------Victor Edwardsvedwards@freeway.net from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Oct 24 15:42:57 1996 Subject: Re: WTD: Tip scarfing block Don - Making one of the blocks and doing the splices is not very hard. Iknocked one together years ago out of scrap wood and have done many spliceswith it. If you E mail me your address, I will send the block out to you, aslong as you promise on your mother's eyes to return it when you are done.These joints get a lot of stress. I've had failures years ago with hardwarestore epoxy and yellow glue. Use a quality epoxy, Urac, or Recourcinol.----Tom Smithwick from jonrc@atlantic.net Thu Oct 24 15:47:51 1996 Subject: Re: Varnish removal Victor, I use tung oil as a final finish. I typically put 11 to 12 coats on. Ilike the finish it gives me and it has been very durable. It will notfill gaps, but the finish, to me, looks soft and rich. It is also easyto apply.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from lostrivr@im4u.net Thu Oct 24 16:18:01 1996 Subject: Re: Varnish removal At 03:17 PM 10/24/96 -0400, you wrote:At 07:54 PM 10/3/96 -0400, you wrote:At 01:57 PM 10/2/96 -0400, you wrote:OK every body, time for the typical "just finishing my first rod" type dumbquestions >g>>Should you, or can you, wipe down a rod with tung oil first before dippingthe rod in polyurethane? Can you finish the rod completely off with just tung oil?Advantages/disadvantages? Thanks,Victor ------------------------------------------------------------Victor Edwardsvedwards@freeway.net Hi Vic,I always use tung oil on my rod blanks just after finish sanding. Imake sure to let them dry/cure for a few weeks before I dip varnish. Youcan check to see if the tung oil is dry with a blow dryer. When heat isapplied and the oil comes to the surface it needs more time. FIRST RODS ARE LIKE FIRST LOVES....YOU NEVER FORGET THEM!!!! Ron Barch> Ron-Thanks for the tip about the blow drier. It may seem dumb but I'm stillnot sure if you can put tung oil on the rod first and then put on apoyurethane finish. PS: Be looking at your calendar for next year. Besides the TBBBQ we need toschedule some fishing time. I'll have the boat ready by then and we can tryit out. ------------------------------------------------------------Victor Edwardsvedwards@freeway.net Hi Vic,Good to hear from you. Concerning tung oil: I use Watco Oil. It ismade bt MIN WAX company. Here is the schedule I use. Plane the strips,Glue them up, let dry 2-3 days, sand with 220,320, 400 and then 600 gritwet/dry paper. When this is done I wipe the shafts down with a good coat ofWatco Oil and then put the shafts away for 2-3 weeks for drying. It workswell for me. Some guys don't bother with varnish, just tung oil the hellout of the blanks. It works but I like the varnish.Concerning fishing. I would love to float the Manistee with you nextsummer. I will be at the TBBBQ and most of my summer is open after that.Also I am looking forward to lots of fun at the FFF conclave in GR next August. Ron B. from Mikael.Marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.SE Thu Oct 24 17:38:35 1996 25 Oct 96 00:42:39 MET DST 25 Oct 96 00:42:15 MET DSTComments: Authenticated sender is Subject: Re: Source for bamboo Priority: normal Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:59:00 -0400 24.09.96.01.00.35] From: "thi (t.t.d.) nguyen" Subject: Source for bamboo I did not see this message on rodmaker list. SO I am resending it.--------------- ------------------Hi everyone, This is the first time I post on this list. So I would like to say 'HI' =toeveryone. I am currently live in Singapore. I moved here 4 months ago from Texas. =Nowthings are settled down, I want to tie fly and build rods again. I want =totry building a bamboo rod. My problem is how can I find some bamboo here=in Singapore. I don't think shipping bamboo from the US to here is a good w=ayto get bamboo. I would like to hear any suggestions you may have. Cheers,Thi Nguyen Hi Thi! I went to Malaysia and Singapore this summer and saw some bamboo that looked good. I asked around a bit but no one could tell me if it were of the right kind. It is Arundinaria amabilis ("the wonderful bamboo") that is the kind that is said to be the best. In the early years of "the history of rodmaking" they tried lots of different kinds of bamboo. Perhaps you have the source to good bamboo nearer than you think?The "right" kind of bamboo, Arundinaria amabilis, or Tonkin bamboo, (locally called Tea stick bamboo or Ch=E1 Kon Chuk)grows 160km north - west of Canton in the Chinese provinces called Kwong Ning and Wai Tsaap. The bamboo is then exported via Hongkong.Regards...----------------------------------------------------- -----------Mikael Marklundmikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm from hihoslvr@teleport.com Thu Oct 24 20:57:12 1996 Subject: subscribe I have not received any messages for the past five days. If I amunsubscribed, please re-subsacribe me. Thank you. Ron Gorman from jfoster@gte.net Thu Oct 24 23:59:47 1996 Subject: Re: hexrod Wayne's newest version of his dos program for rod design, hexrod 96b, isnow posted on the archive. For those new to the list http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm JWF from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Fri Oct 25 11:51:26 1996 Subject: Actions Darryl, I recheck the measurements on the 7'6" rod. I did make a correction onthe 45" measurement that smooths out the curve, but I still come up with amuch lower stress at the 10" mark than you did? I have been using theTaper mail program since I am on a Mac, But I doubt that is the difference. Jim Fillpot from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Fri Oct 25 13:51:55 1996 Subject: Re: ferrules Tony, If you have not feathered the edges of the ferrules yet, a jeweller's sawwith a very fine blade works good. I found that you have to get one that atleast 2>3 teeth are on the cut @ one time or you'll have a terrible time. Ifyou have feathered the edges, and don't care if the slots are 0.025" wide,use the cutoff tool on a Dremel or die-grinder.Best of luck, Don At 22:42 22/10/96 +0800, you wrote:Hi,I've just made a whole bunch of nickel silver ferrules (to all those who advised against making them, you're right, it is too much trouble but at $60 Aust a ferrule I just had to give it a go) and I've struck a hitch at a point I didn't expect, as is always the way.Does anybody know how the tabs are cut? A hack saw'd just cave the hole in. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Tony Young from rmoon@dns.ida.net Fri Oct 25 13:53:10 1996 Subject: Guide placement I just finished teaching another student bamboo rod building. I might say that he has done an exceptional job for a first timer building one of my 7'6" 5wt tapers. During the time we have spent doing this we got into a discussion of which flat the guides should be on. I know that Garrison and Wayne and a lot of others stipulate the weak side for the guides, but Garrison makes the comment that there are many rodmakers who believe that the guides should placed on the strong side. I happen to be one of those and I have a number of reasons for my way of thinking, but I have begun to wonder if my reasoning is sound after our discusion. Rather than pre=dispose any one by giving my explanation, I'd like to hear from some of you who had experience to bolster or refute Garrison or me. Thanks Ralph Moon from lostrivr@im4u.net Sat Oct 26 07:03:56 1996 Subject: Re: Varnish removal At 04:49 PM 10/24/96 -0600, you wrote:Victor, I use tung oil as a final finish. I typically put 11 to 12 coats on. Ilike the finish it gives me and it has been very durable. It will notfill gaps, but the finish, to me, looks soft and rich. It is also easyto apply.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc Jon,I have heard of rodmakers pouring tung oil onto clear plastic wrap/saran wrap, placing the rod sections in and wrapping the whole thing up fora week or more. Sort of an impregnating process. Any experience with sucha process? What is your opinion? Ron Barch from lostrivr@im4u.net Sat Oct 26 07:12:46 1996 Subject: Re: Tapermail At 06:26 AM 10/7/96 CDT, you wrote:Tom seez... To Jerry Ballard and Mike Biondo, I finally got some time this AM to try the Tapermail system. It worked like acharm. Actually a bit easier than starting up Soft PC and running theprogram. Nice Job! As much as I would like to take the credit, all the credit reallygoes to Jerry. This was his baby from the start. All I did wasfind an email-able machine that the program could call home. Now about those 4 strip and 5 strip programs Actually, in the archives, there is another spreadsheet (TAPERS.WK1) with it much, but did speak with David about it several months back. from what I did use of it, it seems to have some pretty neat features. Mike - shortsheet - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Hi Mike,If I change servers, what do I need to do to stay on line with therodmakers list?Ron Barch> from 100423.176@CompuServe.COM Sat Oct 26 15:49:01 1996 Subject: Re: Varnish removal Subject: Re: Varnish removal George- The class I took was taught by Wayne. He has a rod approximately 14years old that was dipped in polyurethane as the finish (2 coats). The rod isstill beautiful. ------------------------------------------------------------ Victor Edwards from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Oct 26 23:38:08 1996 Subject: A Grayrock Idea I've just been on the phone consoling Doug Hall from Atlanta - he wasan emotional wreck about the loss of the world series to NY. During theconversation we were wondering what all could be done in a week in Grayrock.The bit about catching so many fish that our arms would ache - well neitherof us really believed that that could happen - but there is always the chancethat it could rain a day or so. Doug is still collecting the needed tools forrod making and one of the major missing pieces is a binder. Well - the ideagot brought up that with a little preplanning that the needed tools (cut-offsaw & drill press) and the materials for building binders could be at theclubhouse and perhaps that if inclement weather hit that there might beseveral who might be interested in a 'binder day'. In the past I have built 3 binders and although they were an hour herean hour there I guess that it only took about 6 hours to make - so I thinkthat it could be done. The last I built I figure that I had about $20.00 inthe total project.Anyone Interested????? Wayne from JCZIMNY@dol.net Sun Oct 27 08:26:11 1996 Subject: Re: Varnish removal Ltc George Richardson wrote: Subject: Re: Varnish removal George- The class I took was taught by Wayne. He has a rod approximately 14years old that was dipped in polyurethane as the finish (2 coats). The rod isstill beautiful. ------------------------------------------------------------ Victor Edwards Was it dipped after or before the guides were applied....and, am I getting thisclear in that you can have a tung oil varnish finish 'under' all this? Onereason I'm asking is that I am at that decision making point right now.Question would be: Now that the rod is coated with 10-12 rubbed out coats oftung oil varnish, should I? 1) Apply the guides, varnish/shellac/flex coat them and be done? 2) Apply the guides, varnish/shellac/flex coat them then dip/brush/spray onpolyurethane/epoxy/spar varnish? 3) Dip/brush/spray with polyurethane/epoxy/spar varnish then go to step 1) Is there a party line on this.... Also, is there a "tung oil" as opposed to "tung oil varnish" which is what Ihave used on my current project. And what are the pro's/con's of either? George Richardson M.D.Hirschhorn, Germanywriting at 8:10 AM,on Saturday, October 26, 1996Ltc George Richardson wrote: Subject: Re: Varnish removal George- The class I took was taught by Wayne. He has a rod approximately 14years old that was dipped in polyurethane as the finish (2 coats). The rod isstill beautiful. ------------------------------------------------------------ Victor Edwards Was it dipped after or before the guides were applied....and, am I getting thisclear in that you can have a tung oil varnish finish 'under' all this? Onereason I'm asking is that I am at that decision making point right now.Question would be: Now that the rod is coated with 10-12 rubbed out coats oftung oil varnish, should I? 1) Apply the guides, varnish/shellac/flex coat them and be done? 2) Apply the guides, varnish/shellac/flex coat them then dip/brush/spray onpolyurethane/epoxy/spar varnish? 3) Dip/brush/spray with polyurethane/epoxy/spar varnish then go to step 1) Is there a party line on this.... Also, is there a "tung oil" as opposed to "tung oil varnish" which is what Ihave used on my current project. And what are the pro's/con's of either? George Richardson M.D.Hirschhorn, Germanywriting at 8:10 AM,on Saturday, October 26, 1996Ltc George Richardson wrote: Subject: Re: Varnish removal George- The class I took was taught by Wayne. He has a rod approximately 14years old that was dipped in polyurethane as the finish (2 coats). The rod isstill beautiful. ------------------------------------------------------------ Victor Edwards Was it dipped after or before the guides were applied....and, am I getting thisclear in that you can have a tung oil varnish finish 'under' all this? Onereason I'm asking is that I am at that decision making point right now.Question would be: Now that the rod is coated with 10-12 rubbed out coats oftung oil varnish, should I? 1) Apply the guides, varnish/shellac/flex coat them and be done? 2) Apply the guides, varnish/shellac/flex coat them then dip/brush/spray onpolyurethane/epoxy/spar varnish? 3) Dip/brush/spray with polyurethane/epoxy/spar varnish then go to step 1) Is there a party line on this.... Also, is there a "tung oil" as opposed to "tung oil varnish" which is what Ihave used on my current project. And what are the pro's/con's of either? George Richardson M.D.Hirschhorn, Germanywriting at 8:10 AM,on Saturday, October 26, 1996George,Watch for tung oil "varnish". It could be a resin mixed with tung oil or it could be a part-polymerized straight tung oil. The polymerized tung oil will have considerably more "grab" upon application and dry quickly. It will also provide more gloss but provide less penetration into the substrate. One has to read the label to determine what you're applying. thinner of a small amount of "cobalt" dryer to hasten the polymerization of the oil. The common Japan dryer won't work on tung or linseed oil.John from rmoon@dns.ida.net Sun Oct 27 11:37:41 1996 Subject: Re: A Grayrock Idea Gayle,Thanks for your prompt reply. I'll talk to Phil to see what he wants to do. As you know the big problem is going to be pulling the existing reel seat from the rod. I am going to Salt Lake in about a week and I'll plan to pull it then. I am not sure just what the wood was, but it was a dark brown burl. Very nice. I'll get back to you with the exact dimensions and wood choice. I rather think that he will be happy with the replacement if we can pull it off the rod. Thanks again. Incidentally he built an exceptionally nice rod. A 7'6" 4 wt taper of mine and it really looks nice. I understand you have done a few more yourself. How is it going? Ralph from dmcfall@odyssee.net Sun Oct 27 14:08:34 1996 Subject: Old English Cane Rods I am trying to find out some of the history of some english cane rods thatcame to me as a bequest. These rods are as follows: WaterWitch 7' 2 pcWaterWitch 8'6" 3 pc c/w spare tip,Game Fishing Tackle Co., 3 pc 11' c/w 2 tipsGame Fishing Tackle Co. 3 pc 9'3" c/w 2 tips If anyone has info on these manufacturers I would appreciate receiving it.They may be "TRADE RODS". I am not interested in selling them. I hope to be able to RESTORE them at alater date. Many thanks Dave McFall4351 Kensington AvenueMontreal, QuebecCANADAH4B 2W4 dmcfall@odyssee.net514-482-1142 from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Oct 27 17:46:35 1996 Subject: Re: A Grayrock Idea Wayne,Yes,I'm interested in a binder day. The old one I have is on the Garrisonmode and I break to many linen strings with it.Hank. from jonrc@atlantic.net Sun Oct 27 19:12:39 1996 Subject: Re: Tung oil finish (was Varnish removal) lostrivr@im4u.net wrote: I have heard of rodmakers pouring tung oil onto clear plastic wrap/saran wrap, placing the rod sections in and wrapping the whole thing up fora week or more. Sort of an impregnating process. Any experience with sucha process? What is your opinion?Ron Barch I haven't tried the technique of soaking the rod in tung oil. I wonderhow much more the oil would penetrate? I may try this sometime. The wayI have applied the tung oil is to apply a thin coat at a time, drying If there are others out there using tung oil as a finish, it would begood to hear from you!-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain.Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together, the flyis taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running the lengthof the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mystery belowthe surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from jonrc@atlantic.net Sun Oct 27 19:24:03 1996 Subject: A detail sander I was curious, is anyone else using a detail sander? When I first started building rods I ruined a good Porter-Cable sandertrying to convert it so the pad was firm enough so it would not contouraround the nodes. I tried a Ryobi detail sander and found that it workedgreat. It's relatively inexpensive, and the sanding pad is very firm,being small in size you can get right to the nodes without removingfibers from the surrounding area. Just a tip that has worked for me.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from WayneCatt@aol.com Sun Oct 27 22:27:02 1996 Subject: Binder Day Just so every one has a better undersatanding of the binder that I'mthinking about building. The basic design is the same as the Garrison butusing alumunum for the parts and the pulley being make of 3 pieces of 3/8"baltic plywood. The cradle arms will have a 1" diameter to allow easierturning when binding for heat treating. The system is finished out with a(75#) kite string with the ol' square knot in it and a pulley with a weightsuspended.Granted the idea of a square knot is less then ideal but from a personalperspective the binder I have has bound somewhere in the area of 200 rods andto improve on a disposible drive belt for the little fittling it take to dealwith it hasn't been solved.As for a time that the binder building would take place is open itcould be during the week for those that are there or it could be fridayafternoon - evening(Pizza - Binder Party) for those only able to be there someone cutting - others putting the parts together. An estimate is $20 - $25per unit - labor supplied by those wishing units.Another must do is a working model of a portable dipping system - Ihave made a promise to a local friend to help him with one - then at the sametime that would make one available for a show and tell for those that arelooking for options in that area as well.One thing that we will need to know is how many are interested so thatthe needed number of materials can be on hand. So far I've heard from 5 whowant to do it Wayne from oborge@aiss.uic.edu Mon Oct 28 08:26:58 1996 Subject: RE: Tung oil finish (was Varnish removal) Encoding: 43 TEXT Rodmakers,Has anyone tried the pressure treatment impregnation as described inthePlaining Form of a couple of years ago? With Tung Oil? With any of thefinishes described in the article? Has anyone tried the Wes Jordanmethod of impregnation ? ----------From: Jonathan Clarke[SMTP:jonrc@atlantic.net]Sent: Sunday, October 27, 1996 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Tung oil finish (was Varnish removal) lostrivr@im4u.net wrote: I have heard of rodmakers pouring tung oil onto clear plastic wrap/saran wrap, placing the rod sections in and wrapping the whole thing up fora week or more. Sort of an impregnating process. Any experience with sucha process? What is your opinion?Ron Barch I haven't tried the technique of soaking the rod in tung oil. I wonderhow much more the oil would penetrate? I may try this sometime. The wayI have applied the tung oil is to apply a thin coat at a time, drying If there are others out there using tung oil as a finish, it would begood to hear from you!-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain.Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together, the flyis taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running the lengthof the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mystery belowthe surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Mon Oct 28 09:15:05 1996 Subject: Tapers I am reposting this for a new listmember while I try to figureout why the LISTPROC doesn't like postings from his address... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:37:28 -0700From: Mark Huff Subject: Tapers My name is Mark Huff and I am a new subscriber to this list. It is exactly what I was expecting: technical talk between builders regarding the details of building cane rods. Reading this is a great way to relax between classes here at school where I am a accounting major. I'm waiting until after I graduate to start building rods. I wonder: does anyone have any tapers to share? I am not familiar with the protocal involved here, so if this stuff is considered top secret, then disregard my request. I am interested in all tapers, but especially Granger and Phillipson tapers 8 1/2' and shorter. Also, does anybody know what "GV8642" would mean on a Granger rod? Its a 8 1/2' W+M Victory that I should be recieving any day now. The numbers are on the tube. Tight Lines...M.H. from hadn@chevron.com Mon Oct 28 09:46:35 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 28 Oct 1996 07:46:25 -0800 Mon, 28 Oct 1996 07:46:25 -0800 Subject: Tung Oil Soak Encoding: 13 TEXT I have tried the tung oil soaking using plastic wrap, andthe results are ok. It's not a great "end all - do all" wayto finish your rods. What it does do is gives you an easier way to build up the tung oil finish. Letting it soak applied the conventional way. Darryl Hayashida p.s. Ron - This is the way I finished off the cherry wood rod case. from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Mon Oct 28 09:47:42 1996 Subject: Re: Binder Day Wayne seez... As for a time that the binder building would take place is open itcould be during the week for those that are there or it could be fridayafternoon - evening(Pizza - Binder Party) for those only able to be there someone cutting - others putting the parts together. An estimate is $20 - $25per unit - labor supplied by those wishing units. Another must do is a working model of a portable dipping system - Ihave made a promise to a local friend to help him with one - then at the sametime that would make one available for a show and tell for those that arelooking for options in that area as well.One thing that we will need to know is how many are interested so thatthe needed number of materials can be on hand. So far I've heard from 5 whowant to do it Wayne, you can definitely count me in for a binder, and if we gointo 'production mode' on the portable dipping system, you cancount me in for one of those also. This is really great news. I built a Milward binder that seemsto work okay, but I always wanted to try the Garrison style.However, starting a new binder when I already have a working onenever seems to get done. This will be the perfect opportunity.And for $20-$25, I don't think I'd pass that up even if I didn'tneed/want one!!! Mike - all bound up - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from jonrc@atlantic.net Mon Oct 28 10:22:35 1996 Subject: Re: Tung oil finish (was Varnish removal) Borge, Olaf A. wrote: Rodmakers,Has anyone tried the pressure treatment impregnation as described inthePlaining Form of a couple of years ago? With Tung Oil? With any of thefinishes described in the article? Has anyone tried the Wes Jordanmethod of impregnation ? I was thinking that using the pressure treatment for the tung oil mightbe effective. I was wondering how you could tell how much tung oil hasbeen added to the rod. Would weighing the rod before and after work, asWayne does for moisture control? -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from jonrc@atlantic.net Mon Oct 28 10:30:21 1996 Subject: Re: Tung Oil Soak Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn) wrote: I have tried the tung oil soaking using plastic wrap, andthe results are ok. It's not a great "end all - do all" wayto finish your rods. What it does do is gives you aneasier way to build up the tung oil finish. Letting it soak applied the conventional way. Darryl Hayashida p.s.Ron - This is the way I finished off the cherry wood rod case. Darryl, how could tell that is "like 6 coats"? Did you measure or didyou use the rodmakes gaze to tell the thickness? p.s. I use the gaze often, saying to myself "that looks about right"-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Mon Oct 28 10:36:52 1996 Subject: Re: Tung Oil Soak I have tried the tung oil soaking using plastic wrap, andthe results are ok. What about pressure??? Has anyone tried soaking under pressure? Seems like it would be pretty simple to seal up a piece of PVCalong with a mounted tire valve stem, and then pump about 10 lbs.of pressure in with a tire pump. Didn't a lot of the old impregnation processes use pressure? Mike - air bag - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from GLohkamp@aol.com Mon Oct 28 10:45:04 1996 Subject: rods. hello my name is Gary lohkamp, I'am a new member I live in portland oregon.I've been a flyfisher for 18yrs ,cane rod builder 4.recently have my 25throd in the string and can't wait to try it out.I am interrested in exploringtapers for dry fly rods.I've used Garrison\Cattanach tapers before but sodoes everyone .I have some Dickerson ,Holbrook,and a couple of paynes.if someone is interested.also have some infomation on extrapolation of rod tapers. I'vebeen using straight tapers too.such as .014x5'' adding to or subtracting fromthere.it makes a great short rod up to 7.5' but beyond that ?? I 'vecompounded some other straight tapers like .013,.015 .018 and have goodresults.it sounds like reinventing the wheel because there are really no newtapers that some past master has not used or dismissed .but I don't know anyother way to learn how to controll a rods action . I'amalso working on building a milling machine if someone has any interest inthis or the tapers I've mentioned I'll be glad to share. glohkamp@aol.com from oborge@aiss.uic.edu Mon Oct 28 10:47:15 1996 Subject: RE: Tung oil finish (was Varnish removal) Encoding: 36 TEXT Weight or a test blank that could be cross sectioned or both. ----------From: Jonathan Clarke[SMTP:jonrc@atlantic.net]Sent: Monday, October 28, 1996 10:22 AM Subject: Re: Tung oil finish (was Varnish removal) Borge, Olaf A. wrote: Rodmakers,Has anyone tried the pressure treatment impregnation as described inthePlaining Form of a couple of years ago? With Tung Oil? With any of thefinishes described in the article? Has anyone tried the Wes Jordanmethod of impregnation ? I was thinking that using the pressure treatment for the tung oil mightbe effective. I was wondering how you could tell how much tung oil hasbeen added to the rod. Would weighing the rod before and after work, asWayne does for moisture control? -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from hadn@chevron.com Mon Oct 28 10:53:51 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:53:46 -0800 Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:53:46 -0800 Subject: RE: Tung Oil Soak Encoding: 23 TEXT Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn) wrote: I have tried the tung oil soaking using plastic wrap, andthe results are ok. It's not a great "end all - do all" wayto finish your rods. What it does do is gives you aneasier way to build up the tung oil finish. Letting it soak applied the conventional way. Darryl Hayashida p.s.Ron - This is the way I finished off the cherry wood rod case. Darryl, how could tell that is "like 6 coats"? Did you measure or didyou use the rodmakes gaze to tell the thickness? p.s. I use the gaze often, saying to myself "that looks about right" I compared it to a rod that did have 6 coats on it. You can tell by the glossiness and "feel" how thick the coat is. Darryl Hayashida from hadn@chevron.com Mon Oct 28 11:06:55 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:06:50 -0800 Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:06:50 -0800 Subject: RE: Tung Oil Soak Encoding: 45 TEXT I have tried the tung oil soaking using plastic wrap, andthe results are ok. What about pressure??? Has anyone tried soaking under pressure? Seems like it would be pretty simple to seal up a piece of PVCalong with a mounted tire valve stem, and then pump about 10 lbs.of pressure in with a tire pump. Didn't a lot of the old impregnation processes use pressure? Mike - air bag - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Okay guys, you got me thinking. If you submerge a blank (or blank withguides wrapped, I doubt you would want to do this with a handle on)in tung oil and applied pressure, what would happen? sure the tung wouldpenetrate more, but when you take the pressure off the air trappedinsidewould expand and push the oil out. I think a better way would be to submerge the rod in tung oil and pull a vacuum on it. This would drawtheair out, and when you released the vacuum, ordinary atmospheric pressurewould drive the oil into the rod. You would get a more thoroughpenetrationof oil into the rod. I would use a steel pipe to do this though. What a mess if the plasticpipe ruptures. For a vacuum source - one of my other hobbies is jewelrymaking,and I have a vacuum casting unit that uses an aspirator. Essentiallyit's twopieces of pipe at right angles in a "T" configuration. You hook it up toa watersource, and the water goes through the top of the "T", drawing airthrough thebottom of the "T". Any scientific supply store will have them. You caneven route the water out to your yard and water your grass with it. Since I have most of the equipment already, am I elected to give it atry? Darryl Hayashida from jonrc@atlantic.net Mon Oct 28 11:28:23 1996 Subject: Re: Tung Oil Soak I can see a new project coming up. Vacuum and pressure would be best, Ithink. First apply the vacuum to the raw rod in the tung oil tube,(having some finish would inhibit penetration), then pressure.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from bconner@cybercom.net Mon Oct 28 12:04:48 1996 Subject: Re: Tung Oil Soak I can see a new project coming up. Vacuum and pressure would be best, Ithink. First apply the vacuum to the raw rod in the tung oil tube,(having some finish would inhibit penetration), then pressure. Might work very well. An additional improvement would be to put the thingunder pressure using pure oxygen to cure the tung oil. Put it under acouple of atmospheres pressure. More Tech!! More Tech!!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from hadn@chevron.com Mon Oct 28 12:27:49 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:27:45 -0800 Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:27:45 -0800 Subject: RE: Tung Oil Soak Encoding: 19 TEXT I can see a new project coming up. Vacuum and pressure would be best, Ithink. First apply the vacuum to the raw rod in the tung oil tube,(having some finish would inhibit penetration), then pressure. Might work very well. An additional improvement would be to put the thingunder pressure using pure oxygen to cure the tung oil. Put it under acouple of atmospheres pressure. More Tech!! More Tech!!! Whoa! Things become extremely flammable under pure oxygen.You shouldn't even throw away tung oil soaked rags withoutrinsing them out with water. They have an annoying habit ofbursting into flame otherwise. Darryl Hayashida from oborge@aiss.uic.edu Mon Oct 28 12:48:52 1996 Subject: RE: Tung Oil Soak Encoding: 29 TEXT The Plaining Form description called for a vacuum and then pressure. Itwasn't clear but I think the rod section was in the liquid both duringthe vacuum and the pressure phases. what if the rod section was heatedSay at 100deg. and then immersed in the oil and put under pressure? ----------From: bconner@cybercom.net[SMTP:bconner@cybercom.net]Sent: Monday, October 28, 1996 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Tung Oil Soak I can see a new project coming up. Vacuum and pressure would be best, Ithink. First apply the vacuum to the raw rod in the tung oil tube,(having some finish would inhibit penetration), then pressure. Might work very well. An additional improvement would be to put the thingunder pressure using pure oxygen to cure the tung oil. Put it under acouple of atmospheres pressure. More Tech!! More Tech!!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Mon Oct 28 13:30:24 1996 Subject: Rodmaking and the Internet Ron Barch's recent query about how to change email addresses for the RODMAKERS list, got me thinking again about the subject line. There are so many great resources on the internet for rodmakers that I've always thought that would be a great basis of an article So how about it guys, is there anyone out there that would be interested in penning an article for _The Planing Form_??? We all on the list could offer help as needed in planning the article, tracking down references, etc. If you think you would like to take a crack it, I for one, as I amsure many others would sure appreciate it. Also, if you wanted tothrow article ideas off the list, I am sure everyone would give an opinion...probably more opinions than anyone would ever want! Mike - spreading the word - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from hadn@chevron.com Mon Oct 28 13:33:52 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:33:45 -0800 Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:33:45 -0800 Subject: RE: Actions Encoding: 20 TEXT Darryl, I recheck the measurements on the 7'6" rod. I did make a correction onthe 45" measurement that smooths out the curve, but I still come up with amuch lower stress at the 10" mark than you did? I have been using theTaper mail program since I am on a Mac, But I doubt that is the difference. Jim Fillpot I've checked the stress readings using three different hexrods, Wayne's,mine, andthe hexrod spreadsheet from Jerry Foster's web page, and they all comeup witharound 230,000 at the ten inch station. I don't know why the taper mailprogramdoesn't. Darryl Hayashida from hadn@chevron.com Mon Oct 28 15:41:32 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:41:24 -0800 Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:41:24 -0800 Subject: Stress Curves Encoding: 27 TEXT In answer to all the questions I've gotten in my private email,a stress curve basically tells you how a rod will bend whena load (the line) is applied. The tip of the rod is on the left,the handle is on the right of the x axis. The higher the stress(up the y axis), the more the rod is bending. The values drop off drastically at the tip because as the leverarm approaches zero (the tip top) there is less and less for theline to exert any force on. This is reflected in real life. Hold a rod steady and pull the line 90 degrees to the rod. Look at the last few inches of the tip. If you don't believe its more or lessstraight, hold a ruler up to it. Garrison was basically reverse calculating from a stress curveto get diameters. His stress curves do not show true stressvalues. What he was doing was taking what he believed to bestress values for a "progressive" bend in bamboo, and trying to calculate diameters from the stress value. Garrison's stresscurve will not look like a stress curve calculated from true diameter measurements. There is no tensional force on a fly rod. The only way you willget tensional force is to tie the line to the tip top. All the forcesin casting are angular or compressional. Darryl Hayashida from Reed_Gregerson@egghead.com Mon Oct 28 16:02:36 1996 Subject: Re: Tung Oil Soak I can see a new project coming up. Vacuum and pressure would be best, Ithink. >First apply the vacuum to the raw rod in the tung oil tube,(having some finish >would inhibit penetration), then pressure. Might work very well. An additional improvement would be to put thething under >pressure using pure oxygen to cure the tung oil. Put itunder a couple of >atmospheres pressure. More Tech!! More Tech!!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net not to quench the flames of this thread but pure oxygen + oil = instantaneous combustion 'ala the apollo disaster of years ago. Pun intended. Seriously though, things like bronze bushings can be permanentylubricated bypressure treating with oil. We're talking tons of pressure though. As a mechanism for rods, I'd be thinking along the lines of thick steelpipe, gasketed piston, and car jack for a do-able, but effective setup.If complete penetration of the rod with oil is the goal, this would doit. Just a thought, reedreed_gregerson@egghead.com from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Mon Oct 28 16:36:56 1996 Subject: Re: Stress Curves Darryl seez The values drop off drastically at the tip because as the leverarm approaches zero (the tip top) there is less and less for theline to exert any force on. This is reflected in real life. Hold a rod steady and pull the line 90 degrees to the rod. Look at the last few inches of the tip. If you don't believe its more or lessstraight, hold a ruler up to it. Now I thought (and I can, and quite often am wrong about how I preceivethings! ) that the reason that the stress curve drops off sodramatically in the last 5 inches is due to the fact that if youwere to _continue_ the taper of your rod into the last 5 inches, thatthe tip would be impractically small. Try it out...feed the numbersinto your program, only extend your 220,000 reading to the very tip.Instead of the usual 4 - 5 64's tip you will wind up with somethingmuch, much finer. Garrison explains this well in his book. Garrison was basically reverse calculating from a stress curveto get diameters. His stress curves do not show true stressvalues. What he was doing was taking what he believed to bestress values for a "progressive" bend in bamboo, and trying to calculate diameters from the stress value. Garrison's stresscurve will not look like a stress curve calculated from true diameter measurements. The Garrison stress curves I plotted from dimensions published inhis book indeed produces a stress curve matching the Garrisonsemi-parabolic stress curve. It is my opinion that it is not 'reverse calculating' at all to work from a stress curve to getdiameters. In fact, I strongly believe that if you wanted toduplicate the _action_ of a particular rod, in a rod of a differentlength, or a different line weight, working from a stress curve isthe only way to do it. I would be interested to hear others views on this... Mike - twisted curves - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from rfairfie@cisco.com Mon Oct 28 16:44:57 1996 Subject: Re: Stress Curves from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Oct 28 13:49:30 1996Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:39:31 -0800 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: "Hayashida, Darryl N. (hadn)" Subject: Stress CurvesX-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.1 -- ListProcessor by CRENContent-Length: 1251 In answer to all the questions I've gotten in my private email,a stress curve basically tells you how a rod will bend whena load (the line) is applied. The tip of the rod is on the left,the handle is on the right of the x axis. The higher the stress(up the y axis), the more the rod is bending. The values drop off drastically at the tip because as the leverarm approaches zero (the tip top) there is less and less for theline to exert any force on. This is reflected in real life. Hold a rod steady and pull the line 90 degrees to the rod. Look at the last few inches of the tip. If you don't believe its more or lessstraight, hold a ruler up to it. Garrison was basically reverse calculating from a stress curveto get diameters. His stress curves do not show true stressvalues. What he was doing was taking what he believed to bestress values for a "progressive" bend in bamboo, and trying to calculate diameters from the stress value. Garrison's stresscurve will not look like a stress curve calculated from true diameter measurements. There is no tensional force on a fly rod. The only way you willget tensional force is to tie the line to the tip top. All the forcesin casting are angular or compressional. Darryl, are you sure about that? It seems to me that I remember somethingabout the bottom of a beam being in compression, and the top being intension when it is loaded at 90 degrees to it's long axis. I think that thepower fibers on the side of the rod that is taking the load are in tension, andthe ones on the other side are in compression. There is a line down the middle of the rod that sees no stress, I think. Some mechanical engineer help me out here, please. It's been 30 years since I studied this stuff! Tnx,Roger Darryl Hayashida from bconner@cybercom.net Mon Oct 28 16:49:26 1996 Subject: RE: Tung Oil Soak I can see a new project coming up. Vacuum and pressure would be best, Ithink. First apply the vacuum to the raw rod in the tung oil tube,(having some finish would inhibit penetration), then pressure. Might work very well. An additional improvement would be to put the thingunder pressure using pure oxygen to cure the tung oil. Put it under acouple of atmospheres pressure. More Tech!! More Tech!!! Whoa! Things become extremely flammable under pure oxygen.You shouldn't even throw away tung oil soaked rags withoutrinsing them out with water. They have an annoying habit ofbursting into flame otherwise. Darryl Hayashida ooops! Forgot the mandatory smileys and disclaimer on that post. It wasintended as a joke. Besides, if you want *real* combustion, try aturpentine soaked rag in strong ammonia fumes. That will get you somefire! Seriously, you probably could accelerate the drying of the tung oil byplacing the rod in a pressure vessel after it comes out of the varnish.Just air tho, not O2! :') from hadn@chevron.com Mon Oct 28 17:23:52 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:23:45 -0800 Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:23:45 -0800 Subject: RE: Stress Curves Encoding: 26 TEXT There is no tensional force on a fly rod. The only way you willget tensional force is to tie the line to the tip top. All the forcesin casting are angular or compressional. Darryl, are you sure about that? It seems to me that I remember somethingabout the bottom of a beam being in compression, and the top being intension when it is loaded at 90 degrees to it's long axis. I think that thepower fibers on the side of the rod that is taking the load are in tension,andthe ones on the other side are in compression. There is a line down themiddle of the rod that sees no stress, I think. Some mechanical engineerhelp me out here, please. It's been 30 years since I studied this stuff! We are talking about two different things here. The question I wasanswering was ina private email, a comment was made that the reason the tip top had tobe larger thanwas calculated was because if it were that thin the "pulling force" ofcasting wouldpull the tip apart. There is no pulling force or tension in casting. Youare right in thatthere is a tension on one side and a compression on the other side whenbent. Darryl Hayashida from hadn@chevron.com Mon Oct 28 17:27:04 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:26:53 -0800 Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:26:53 -0800 Subject: RE: Tung Oil Soak Encoding: 18 TEXT ooops! Forgot the mandatory smileys and disclaimer on that post. It wasintended as a joke. Besides, if you want *real* combustion, try aturpentine soaked rag in strong ammonia fumes. That will get you somefire! Seriously, you probably could accelerate the drying of the tung oil byplacing the rod in a pressure vessel after it comes out of the varnish.Just air tho, not O2! :') Sorry for the confusion and consternation, it's Monday, and I'm thinkingabout other things. I forgot my smiley too... I didn't think you were serious. Pure oxygenwouldbe hard to get anyway. Darryl from hadn@chevron.com Mon Oct 28 17:49:56 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:49:51 -0800 Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:49:51 -0800 Subject: RE: Stress Curves Encoding: 38 TEXT Now I thought (and I can, and quite often am wrong about how I preceivethings! ) that the reason that the stress curve drops off sodramatically in the last 5 inches is due to the fact that if youwere to _continue_ the taper of your rod into the last 5 inches, thatthe tip would be impractically small. Try it out...feed the numbersinto your program, only extend your 220,000 reading to the very tip.Instead of the usual 4 - 5 64's tip you will wind up with somethingmuch, much finer. Garrison explains this well in his book. Yes, but if you look at the way the stress is calculated, the length isa multiplicative factor in the calculation of the loading at each point.Multiply by 2 inches from the tip... Multiply by 1 inch from the tip...Multiply by 0 inches from the tip... No matter what you do withdiameter you will always go to zero at the tip, until you add thetip impact factor. The Garrison stress curves I plotted from dimensions published inhis book indeed produces a stress curve matching the Garrisonsemi-parabolic stress curve. It is my opinion that it is not 'reverse calculating' at all to work from a stress curve to getdiameters. In fact, I strongly believe that if you wanted toduplicate the _action_ of a particular rod, in a rod of a differentlength, or a different line weight, working from a stress curve isthe only way to do it. I have been working on this also. I think if you make proportionalchanges the action will be the same. Think of it as if you drewthe stress graph on a rubber sheet and stretched the rubber sheetto the new length. I think it would work. stress curve up or down on the y axis would preserve the actionbut allow a different line weight. Anybody actually do this? Darryl Hayashida from JCZIMNY@dol.net Mon Oct 28 18:10:55 1996 Subject: Re: Tung oil finish (was Varnish removal) Borge, Olaf A. wrote: Rodmakers,Has anyone tried the pressure treatment impregnation as described inOlaf et al,I would not try any imprenation process with a drying oil. Heavy oil applications in ring-porous woods ( not cane) have been known to "weep" un-polermized oil for months or years.Your best bet would be to impregnate the cane with some type of resin. In this case you would be assured of a large degree of polymerization.John from JCZIMNY@dol.net Mon Oct 28 18:20:54 1996 Subject: Re: Tung Oil Soak Borge, Olaf A. wrote: The Plaining Form description called for a vacuum and then pressure. Itwasn't clear but I think the rod section was in the liquid both duringthe vacuum and the pressure phases. what if the rod section was heatedSay at 100deg. and then immersed in the oil and put under pressure? ----------From: bconner@cybercom.net[SMTP:bconner@cybercom.net]Sent: Monday, October 28, 1996 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Tung Oil Soak I can see a new project coming up. Vacuum and pressure would be best, Ithink. First apply the vacuum to the raw rod in the tung oil tube,(having some finish would inhibit penetration), then pressure. Might work very well. An additional improvement would be to put the thingunder pressure using pure oxygen to cure the tung oil. Put it under acouple of atmospheres pressure. More Tech!! More Tech!!! Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net One can't increse pressure on a fluid by adding a gas under pressure??? Isn't this one of the principles of hydraulics? If I'm correct, then a good soak would be as good as a soak under pressure.John from rklmeb@tiac.net Mon Oct 28 18:25:25 1996 Subject: Union Hardware rods and reels Hi folks,I'm new to the list (and not sure if my e-mail box can handle the 35messages you guys posted yesterday) and find it interesting already. I'mnot a builder but do some refinishing as a hobby. Right now I'm trying toround up info about Union Hardware Co. rods and reels, mostly the rods.Yes, I know we're talking strictly working-class gear, but it was honestgear, am I right? Anyway, any help I can get I appreciate. Thanks inadvance.Richard K. Lodge from hadn@chevron.com Mon Oct 28 18:47:31 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:47:25 -0800 Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:47:25 -0800 Subject: RE: Tung Oil Soak Encoding: 18 TEXT One can't increse pressure on a fluid by adding a gas under pressure??? Isn't this one of the principles of hydraulics? If I'm correct, then a good soak would be as good as a soak under pressure.John Just soaking it relies on just the capillary pressure to drawthe oil into the bamboo. Putting it under pressure wouldcompress the air trapped inside the cane, driving moreoil into the rod. The principle of hydraulics you are thinking of states thatpressure at any point in a closed system is the same throughout the system. So ten psi gas pressure at thetop of the oil will be ten psi at the bottom of the oil andevery point in between. Darryl Hayashida from hadn@chevron.com Mon Oct 28 18:57:15 1996 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:57:10 -0800 Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:57:10 -0800 Subject: RE: Tung Oil Soak Encoding: 23 TEXT One can't increse pressure on a fluid by adding a gas under pressure??? Isn't this one of the principles of hydraulics? If I'm correct, then a good soak would be as good as a soak under pressure.John Just soaking it relies on just the capillary pressure to drawthe oil into the bamboo. Putting it under pressure wouldcompress the air trapped inside the cane, driving moreoil into the rod. The principle of hydraulics you are thinking of states thatpressure at any point in a closed system is the same throughout the system. So ten psi gas pressure at thetop of the oil will be ten psi at the bottom of the oil andevery point in between. Darryl Hayashida I forgot to add the hydraulic head effects also, but if thereisn't a lot of depth in the system it's negligible from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Oct 28 19:38:06 1996 Subject: Re: Stress Curves Roger,I believe you're right. This means a hollow built rod doesn't lose much butweight as far as strength goes.Hank. from lostrivr@im4u.net Mon Oct 28 22:07:52 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet At 03:44 AM 10/28/96 CST, you wrote:Ron Barch's recent query about how to change email addresses for the RODMAKERS list, got me thinking again about the subject line. There are so many great resources on the internet for rodmakers that I've always thought that would be a great basis of an article So how about it guys, is there anyone out there that would be interested in penning an article for _The Planing Form_??? We all on the list could offer help as needed in planning the article, tracking down references, etc. If you think you would like to take a crack it, I for one, as I amsure many others would sure appreciate it. Also, if you wanted tothrow article ideas off the list, I am sure everyone would give an opinion...probably more opinions than anyone would ever want! Mike - spreading the word - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Mike and Others,Sounds like a good, no very good idea to me. I would welcome the article.Also I have been contemplating some articles on the background history ofsome of the excellent little known rodmakers. Guys like Cecil Pierce andDawn Holbrook have been left out of the lime light. I am sure there are more.Any suggestions??/Ron Barch from bruno8@primenet.com Mon Oct 28 23:40:40 1996 Organization: Fatherhood/Brotherhood Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet Mike and Others,Sounds like a good, no very good idea to me. I would welcome the article.Also I have been contemplating some articles on the background history ofsome of the excellent little known rodmakers. Guys like Cecil Pierce andDawn Holbrook have been left out of the lime light. I am sure there are more.Any suggestions??/Ron Barch Yea Ron: Little known old masters?We've got one on our list here by the name of Ralph Moon.He used to be the Currator of the National Museum of Fly Fishing (sic?).As far as I know, he was teaching classes in rod building many yearsbefore the current resurgence. He's probably forgotten more than I'll everknow.(Hi Ralph! How is the wife?) BTW, its been six or seven hours since Mr. Biondo has thrown downthe gauntlet...no takers as of yet?...I'll throw my hat in the ring if none of the more astute fellows lurking here dont come forward.I write a colunm for a local newspaper in my community and have baseskill.E-me if Wayne or Darryl or Bruce or John or one of the other regulars dont step up to the plate. Bill Cooper from lostrivr@im4u.net Tue Oct 29 05:37:12 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet At 09:43 PM 10/28/96 -0800, you wrote:Mike and Others,Sounds like a good, no very good idea to me. I would welcome thearticle.Also I have been contemplating some articles on the background history ofsome of the excellent little known rodmakers. Guys like Cecil Pierce andDawn Holbrook have been left out of the lime light. I am sure there aremore.Any suggestions??/Ron Barch Yea Ron: Little known old masters?We've got one on our list here by the name of Ralph Moon.He used to be the Currator of the National Museum of Fly Fishing (sic?).As far as I know, he was teaching classes in rod building many yearsbefore the current resurgence. He's probably forgotten more than I'll everknow.(Hi Ralph! How is the wife?) BTW, its been six or seven hours since Mr. Biondo has thrown downthe gauntlet...no takers as of yet?...I'll throw my hat in the ring if none of the more astute fellows lurking here dont come forward.I write a colunm for a local newspaper in my community and have baseskill.E-me if Wayne or Darryl or Bruce or John or one of the other regulars dont step up to the plate. Bill Cooper Bill,I have heard a great deal about Ralph Moon. I think he is an excellentcandidate for an article. So when do I get some material?Thanks, Ron Barch from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Tue Oct 29 05:44:57 1996 Subject: BINDER DAY Wayne, et al. An ex-machinist friend made a binder for me this summer, and he used delrinplastic for the pullies. The thinking here is that epoxy won't stick to them,making clean up easier. This is a Garrison style with some other improvements.Well, the good news is that even the drive wheel can be made of this stuff. What's even better: it can be machined on a wood lathe! I have a more orless portable wood lathe I would be happy to bring to Grayling for bindermaking and other rod-building enterprises such as handle turning and ferruleseating. Let me know if this is something people would be interested in. -- Mark M.Freed freedmar@pilot.msu.edu from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Oct 29 08:13:05 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet Ron and others - I'd like to put my $.02 in here also. First, there was arodbuilder in this area named Baird Foster, who was a friend and contemporaryof Garrison. Bill Fink knew him well and has some slides of him and hisequipment, which was very sophisticated. I'm sure Bill will be happy tocontribute an article. Second, rather than one article on the internet sites, why not have a regularcolumn that does a more in depth review on one or more sites for each issue.Our local newspaper does that each week for some of the best web sites and itseems to be a popular feature. -- Tom Smithwick from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Tue Oct 29 09:09:49 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet BTW, its been six or seven hours since Mr. Biondo has thrown downthe gauntlet...no takers as of yet?...I'll throw my hat in the ring if none of the more astute fellows lurking here dont come forward.I write a colunm for a local newspaper in my community and have baseskill. Perfect!!! Just the type of person I would hope would step forwardand take up the task. The task always seem a bit intimidating tome who has never written for a newpaper/newletter. Someone who doesit on a regular basis would be a perfect candidate in my opinion.Thanks Bill!!! Let us know if there is anything at all we can helpwith. And then Tom goes on to say... Second, rather than one article on the internet sites, why not have a regularcolumn that does a more in depth review on one or more sites for each issue.Our local newspaper does that each week for some of the best web sites and itseems to be a popular feature. -- Tom Smithwick Also a very good idea! Perhaps Bill could start off with an articlegiving a general overview of what is currently out there, and thenas Bill's time/inclination permits do a more in-depth review of a particular web-site or the RODMAKERS list. Bill??? Of course, anyone else wishing to throw in a article/review, I'msure it would be most appreciated. Mike - scoop challendged - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from FFer4trout@aol.com Tue Oct 29 09:45:20 1996 Subject: Re: BINDER DAY In a message dated 96-10-29 06:51:02 EST, you write: Mark, Delrin (acetal) is good stuff for bearings and wheels or any low-frictionuse. It also resists most mild chemicals. Be careful in putting to much heat into it, such as from grinding ormachining it. The stuff, when overheated gives off formaldehyde which will dobad things to you. So be in a well ventilated area. Don Burns from bconner@cybercom.net Tue Oct 29 09:54:50 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet BTW, its been six or seven hours since Mr. Biondo has thrown downthe gauntlet...no takers as of yet?...I'll throw my hat in thering if none of the more astute fellows lurking here dont come forward.I write a colunm for a local newspaper in my community and have baseskill.E-me if Wayne or Darryl or Bruce or John or one of the other regularsdont step up to the plate.Bill Cooper OK, I guess I'll pick up the gauntlet. How soon would you like thisarticle? How many words? How many pictures? Shall I use examples of ouremail or just give a general overview of how the net differs from thenewsletter (and that they are not mutually exclusive, but rathersynergistic)? let me know what things you want covered and I'll see what I can do. Bruce Connerbconner@cybercom.net from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Tue Oct 29 10:35:06 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet Bruce - Mr. FAQ - Conner seez... OK, I guess I'll pick up the gauntlet. How soon would you like thisarticle? How many words? How many pictures? Shall I use examples of ouremail or just give a general overview of how the net differs from thenewsletter (and that they are not mutually exclusive, but rathersynergistic)? let me know what things you want covered and I'll see what I can do. Bruce, Bill Cooper who currently writes a weekly article for a localnewpaper also volunteered to write the article. I am sure though,your familiarity with the internet would be a huge asset to the article. What about the possibility of you guys working together toco-author the article? Sounds like it would be the best of both... Mike - scoop & internet challendged - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from vedwards@freeway.net Tue Oct 29 12:38:43 1996 Subject: Re: Binder Day Wayne-I'd be very interested in a binder. from bconner@cybercom.net Tue Oct 29 18:01:19 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet Bruce, Bill Cooper who currently writes a weekly article for a localnewpaper also volunteered to write the article. I am sure though,your familiarity with the internet would be a huge asset to thearticle. What about the possibility of you guys working together toco-author the article? Sounds like it would be the best of both... Mike - scoop & internet challendged - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Sorry Mike, I ride alone. Collaboration always seems such a nice idea, butends up taking 3 times as long and neither party is happy at the end. Notslighting anyone, just my experience with this sort of thing. Bruce "Lone Wolf" Conner from bruno8@primenet.com Tue Oct 29 21:01:32 1996 Organization: Fatherhood/Brotherhood Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet Bruce Conner wrote: Bruce, Bill Cooper who currently writes a weekly article for a local(SNIPPED)Mike - scoop & internet challendged - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. Sorry Mike, I ride alone. Collaboration always seems such a nice idea, butends up taking 3 times as long and neither party is happy at the end. Notslighting anyone, just my experience with this sort of thing. Bruce "Lone Wolf" Conner Well guys, How do I respond to this? I'm sure that you would do an admirable jobBruce, but the tone set in the original post seemed to be one ofcollaboration, very much like the toneof this list and the tone of the resource as a whole, that is, sharingknowledgeenriches us all expotentially. I am personally on a quest forknowledge, and this SHARED recource enriches us all. If this thing begins to lookcompetitive orsubjective I will gracefully bow out. However, I would be honored tohelp out anywayI can. Just don't keep me in the dark fella's. Bill "Team Player" Cooper from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Oct 29 21:39:15 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet A suggestion - perhaps two (or more) articles. I think each of us usethe internet and (or) this list for different reasons. Having just finished a4 page letter to Tokyo - one advantage the net is to me is a savings on longdistance phone bills. I think that from the start both TPF and the list sharea common goal - that of letting each express as they are lead. Some where inall this I saw my name mentioned - but I am going to take a back seat and letothers share. What I will share later is a report on the 6' 3" 2 & 4 weight combo rodthat I hope to have for a trip to DC in Janurary. And there's this Hex96 -release 'c' is about done. Pretty quick I be looking like Microsoft - ravingover 95 in the year 96 Wayne from bconner@cybercom.net Tue Oct 29 23:36:40 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet Well guys,How do I respond to this? I'm sure that you would do an admirable jobBruce, but the tone set in the original post seemed to be one ofcollaboration, very much like the toneof this list and the tone of the resource as a whole, that is, sharingknowledgeenriches us all expotentially. I am personally on a quest forknowledge, and thisSHARED recource enriches us all. If this thing begins to lookcompetitive orsubjective I will gracefully bow out. However, I would be honored tohelp out anywayI can.Just don't keep me in the dark fella's. Bill "Team Player" Cooper Guess we just interpreted this a little differently. It's no biggie :')Besides, you are the pro, I'd be happy to see you do it. Bruce "Just the FAQs" Conner from bruno8@primenet.com Wed Oct 30 00:24:47 1996 Organization: Fatherhood/Brotherhood Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet Guess we just interpreted this a little differently. It's no biggie :')Besides, you are the pro, I'd be happy to see you do it. Bruce "Just the FAQs" Conner Thats not true Bruce, I'm just basically a wanna-be charading around asone of the big boyz. Bruce, you run a killer web site, it was the firstthing I saw when I came to this list a year or so ago, and I still visitit regularly. That site embodies the very essence of the shared knowledge that is our strength. To be honest, I think YOU and Your Sitewould make great copy...What do you think guys? Bruce writes theleader, and then we write a follow up on HIM? :>) Input RequestedBill from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Oct 30 07:44:22 1996 Subject: Looking for Japanese Makers Not knowing all of those that are listening to the list. I have beencontacted by a person in Japan and they are looking to contact other rodmakers there. If there are any that would like to make contact please e-mailme - Wayne Catt@AOL.COM Wayne from bootstrap@earthlink.net Wed Oct 30 09:19:00 1996 Subject: Re: Rodmaking and the Internet I'll do something on how to make a planing form, if any inerest. Frank from dmcfall@odyssee.net Wed Oct 30 11:54:33 1996 Subject: H-I Flash rod Does anyone have the original guide spacing for this rod? Would appreciatereceiving a copy. Thanks in advanceMay your creel be full before your cooler is empty. Dave McFall4351 Kensington AveMontreal, QuebecH4B 2W4 514-482-1142dmcfall@odyssee.net from rlodge@communitynews.com Wed Oct 30 12:23:18 1996 Organization: Community Newspaper Company Subject: Re: H-I Flash rod Dave: I'm familiar with the Montague Flash model but not a Flash made Regards,Richard from FFer4trout@aol.com Wed Oct 30 12:46:02 1996 Subject: Help - need an accross-the-grain cork ring Rodbuilders: I'm really coming along on a 7' Kingfisher (2/1) restoration project. I''vegot a tip scarf block on loan from Tom Smithwick (a gentleman and a scholar).So soon the tip will be back to normal length. I've also just got the darn winding check loose - this was not an easy taskon this rod. Then the loose cork grip fell right off. The cane under the gripis delaminated and will need re-gluing. I'll wrap the cane with some masking tape as to act as grip spacer and thenepoxy the grip back on. I hoping that this tape/epoxy build up will also addsome extra strength to this area also. The grip on this rod is made from the cheap accross-the-grain rings (holes -not lines showing) and the first 1/2" ring is missing big chunk or two, thiswould be an easy repair while off the rod. But where to find some of thiskind of cork, I called around and got zip. I'd hate to have to switch over to a grip of normal with-the-grain rings thatwon't look quite original. Do any of you have any rings? Or know of a source for just a few rings(really need only one 1/2" - 1" ring)? Thanks in advance, Don Burns from rfairfie@cisco.com Wed Oct 30 13:03:44 1996 Subject: Re: Help - need an accross-the-grain cork ring Don, could you make one out of a large champaign (sp) cork? Someof the corks I've seen expanded to over an inch in diameter. Good luck,Roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Oct 30 10:55:39 1996Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:45:59 -0500 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: FFer4trout@aol.com Subject: Help - need an accross-the-grain cork ringX-Listprocessor-Version: 7.1 -- ListProcessor by CRENContent-Length: 1129 Rodbuilders: I'm really coming along on a 7' Kingfisher (2/1) restoration project. I''vegot a tip scarf block on loan from Tom Smithwick (a gentleman and a scholar).So soon the tip will be back to normal length. I've also just got the darn winding check loose - this was not an easy taskon this rod. Then the loose cork grip fell right off. The cane under the gripis delaminated and will need re-gluing. I'll wrap the cane with some masking tape as to act as grip spacer and thenepoxy the grip back on. I hoping that this tape/epoxy build up will also addsome extra strength to this area also. The grip on this rod is made from the cheap accross-the-grain rings (holes -not lines showing) and the first 1/2" ring is missing big chunk or two, thiswould be an easy repair while off the rod. But where to find some of thiskind of cork, I called around and got zip. I'd hate to have to switch over to a grip of normal with-the-grain rings thatwon't look quite original. Do any of you have any rings? Or know of a source for just a few rings(really need only one 1/2" - 1" ring)? Thanks in advance, Don Burns from dmcfall@odyssee.net Wed Oct 30 13:14:31 1996 Subject: Re: H-I Flash rod At 13:23 30/10/96 -1000, you wrote:Dave: I'm familiar with the Montague Flash model but not a Flash made Regards,Richard H-I for sure. Has trout logo - see page 111 of Michael Sinclair's book. Regards Dave from FFer4trout@aol.com Wed Oct 30 14:11:23 1996 Subject: Re: H-I Flash rod In a message dated 96-10-30 13:32:55 EST, you write: Dave, also please include the of the length rod. Don from cbogart@ibm.net Wed Oct 30 19:30:33 1996 Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Help - need an accross-the-grain cork ring Don A couple of years ago Jorge Carcao brought some of thiscork to Boiling Springs Gathering and shared it with other rodmakers.I believe I still have some left. BTW , Just because it was cut accross the grain does notmean it is "checp" or less quality - you need to hear Jorge's talk andsee his slide show on cork to understand this issue. Send meyou address and I will forward a few rings to you. Chris from dmcfall@odyssee.net Wed Oct 30 19:45:55 1996 Subject: Re: H-I Flash rod Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:19:50 -0500 From: McFall David Subject: Re: H-I Flash rod It is a 9', it is hard to measure exactly as the ferrules are dirty and Idon't want to force them. It appears that the wraps had been done after therod was varnished. There are no intermediates and the very small scrap ofwrap that remains appears to agree with the wrap specs shown in Sinclair,i.e. lime green. The winding check is chrome plated brass. The handle iscomposed of 6 - 1" rings, the handle over-all length is now 5 3/4" +-. Itis quite dirty but not too badly abused for a 60+ year old piece ofequipment. The reel seat appears to be identical to the one on pg 119 ofSinclair (extreme left). There is no hook keeper. Ferrules are similar tothose on pg 18, rolled rim, and are drawn as on page 22. There are twonarrow "knurled" bands on the bottom (cane) end of the ferrules and arechrome plated brass. I'm missing some guides and those that are there are held on with plasticelectrical tape. The guides are of a blackened material and are what Iwould calla right hand helix. The tip is loose. Tip:Overall length (bottom of ferrule to top of tip 37 1/4"OD of ferrule 6/64", length 1 1/2"distance to bottom guide ( from bottom of ferrule) 12 1/4"distance to top guide ( from bottom of ferrule) 12 1/4" Mid section:O/A length 37"OD of (male) ferrule 17/64; length 1 5/8"Length of female ferrule 2 9/16"distance to bottom guide ( from bottom of ferrule) 16"distance to top guide ( from bottom of ferrule) 31 5/8" Handle sectionO/A length 37 1/4"Ferrule (female) length 2 13/16"distance to stripper guide from bottom of handle 31 5/8" I could measure the taper if you wish. If so I guess it would relativethe winding check or bottom ferrule and at what interval????????????? I could re-guide with sizes applicable to modern lines just to try it out- not permanently mounted guides. It might be an interesting experiment.It doesn't appear to be a major job to restore this rod. The varnish has aflat appearance and is dirty. The rod was sitting in a barn for years andI haven't tried to even wipe it off with a damp cloth yet. Please let me know what you think. Thanks Dave from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Thu Oct 31 07:57:36 1996 Subject: No-knot binding cord + other stuff To all, No Bumpy Knot Binder Cord Construction This is an idea that was shown me @ the cane-gettogether in Merritt a coupleof years ago by Jetty Arbeider of Vancouver, B.C. Materials needed is a hollow braid line approx. 8" longer than the bindingdrive cord you require for your binder. Hollow braids are like fly linebacking. I got a multi-life time supply from guys that fish halibut on thewest coast. 1000 yds. of 130 lb. dacron. I have purchased other types ofhollow braided stuff from local fishing shops and see Cabel's stock dacronlines in heavy sizes. You don't need a lot of it for a forever supply. Thebinding cord I'm presently using is now 20 rods old and still going strong.You require a blunt ended needle of adequate eye hole to take the dacron line.Other lines types I've tried are hollow braided nylon casting lines & hollowbraided shoes laces. Each was more or less successful. The process is: String the needle with the dacron line leaving a tag end ofabout 1". Insert the needle approx. 4" along the cord in the free [opposite]end making a big loop. Thread the needle along inside the braid until youfigure your about 4" along. [If you wish, you can mark the areas of the cordwith waterproof markers @ 4" prior to starting.] Thread the needle outthrough the braid. Slid the needle off the cord. Again thread the needlewith the 4" tag end left. And this is important. Insert the needle back intothe braid @ as close as possbile to the point where it just exited. Slid theneedle on the opposite direction of the previous insertion until you believethat you have covered 4". Slid the needle out of the braid and remove. Workthe left over ends into the braid a good as possible and cut off the excess.What you have now is a endless cord with no visible knot. The harder youpull on this cord the tighter the compression on the knot area and thestronger it gets. Beware- - some dacron comes inpregnated with teflon and is slicker than aused car salesman. Avoid these types of dacron. Other binding stuff - - - Presoaking the driving cord and cleaning the cord twix rod passes reducesthe chances of the cord sticking to itself or binder parts.- Putting glue on the blank is best done on a adequate length of waxedbutcher paper. Makes cleaning the glue are between each jointeasy. Just a damp sponge and paper is clean. Place wax side up.- A large rubber band on the binder drive wheel reduces slippage [I thinksomeone memtioned this on a prior post]- The use of teflon, delrin or high moly plastic for the change-directionpulleys on the binder reduces cleanup time.- Pre-run you binder with a rod blank already glued up to remove specks ofglue that you might have missed when you last cleaned it. Thesespecks have a nasty habit of getting into the glue of the rod youworking on and may "hold open" a glue joint.- Save a tad of glue mixed for your gluing operation to make sure it set.Place in the same area where your blank is drying to get an idea ofset time. You certainly don't wish to remove the string prior toglue setting.- Take the phone off the hook!!! Remember you only got about 45 minutes toget this blank glued or its start over.- Use a glue application brush that you trust. A loss of a wicker from thebrush lodged into the rod joints sure spoils a glue line. See if youcan get a glue applicator that has brightly colored bristles. If onedoes fall out, the chances of catching the it are just that muchbetter. I use tooth brushes that I color the bristles withwaterproof markers. Black seems to work good. I work any new brushover the edge of the smooth surface to get any bristles that might want tofall out a chance to do it. A coffee cup tis about right.- Soap and water seems to cleanup Urac just fine. Including the applicatorbrush.- Slap the freshy glued blanks a couple of times on your work bench to getall the joints nestled tight together. Then straighten it asbest you can. I cannot emphasize the effort you spent here willbe well rewarded after you pull the string off. If you spent toomuch time here and the glue sets. So what - glues cheap.- Binder weights will cause a rod to twist. I increase the weight on secondpass about 20% to counteract the twist from the first pass.- Similarly, so will the power required to pull the binding cord [ notdriving cord] from the binder. The pre-load on the tensioningdevice should just have an oz. or 2.- Use disposable plastic or latex gloves for glueing. Some of the gluesdon't like skin a whole lot.- Wear a face mask when sanding the joints to remove the glue. The dust fromthe sanding operation is a lung irritant. Regards, Don Andersen from khube@benmeadows.com Thu Oct 31 08:51:47 1996 Subject: Don Anderson's Info I can confirm the use of Don's advice on binding and glue procedures. A fewmonths ago, he came to my rescue with an e-mail description of the bindercord for my Garrison-style unit. I used available dacron fly-line backingwith great success. The first "live" glue run was a little messy and the rodsection has some "character" in the form of some funny curves that refuse tocome out.......my fault...not the machine. The Anderson drive belt washesclean and is ready for immediate reuse. from wood with hardware store plastic guide wheels and metal drive pulleythat was designed for use with a clothes line. A few 1/4 X 20 bolts holdeverything togather. Don's belt completed the machine. The tension setup isnot up to par yet, but it is easy to make, inexpensive and it works ! Karl HubeMarietta, Georgia from khube@benmeadows.com Thu Oct 31 09:11:20 1996 Subject: Post Script Followup on the Anderson binding cord......two rods recently glued withDon's belt are really good....clean joints and straight sections. TheGarrison puts in some twist in light sections, but a little heat-gun worksolves that. One of these rods went to the creek yesterday and brought eightrainbows to net and release. Nothing like "field proof testing" !! Karl Hube********************************* F. Karl Hube Ben Meadows Company, Inc. Atlanta, Georgia USA khube@benmeadows.com********************************* from KilchsGray@aol.com Thu Oct 31 13:22:43 1996 Subject: Re: Twohanded rods In a message dated 96-10-15 18:03:33 EDT, you write: Dear Mikael et al,I do not have any tapers, but some anecdotal evidence re: the Paynetwo-handers, gleaned from Schweibert and LaBranche. These rods were almostcertainly designed for overhead rather than spey casting. Hendrickson,Steenrod, and LaBranche used theirs for dry-fly salmon fishing in Canada.Steenrod is credited with suggesting to Payne that the middle and uppersections of the two-handers would make perfect dry-fly trout rods, andPayne's 8 1/2' df is supposedly based on this. LaBranche's descriptions offishing one of these rods make it pretty clear that he was casting in aconventional overhead manner. It is also possible that I am misreadingLaBranche, and/or Payne made other two-handers with more speylike tapers aswell. I believe that the original Hendrickson and LaBranche rods are inmuseum collections somewhere.Not much, but FWIW...---Roger Wiggin, Portland OR from Mikael.Marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.SE Thu Oct 31 16:53:25 1996 31 Oct 96 11:56:55 MET DST 31 Oct 96 11:56:16 MET DSTComments: Authenticated sender is Subject: Re: Twohanded rodsPriority: normal Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:22:40 -0500 From: KilchsGray@aol.com Subject: Re: Twohanded rods In a message dated 96-10-15 18:03:33 EDT, you write: some builders in the US. I think that Payne made some, and wasn=A6t there a builder named F.E.Thomas? Please let me know if you got something. >>Dear Mikael et al,I do not have any tapers, but some anecdotal evidence re: the Paynetwo-handers, gleaned from Schweibert and LaBranche. These rods were alm=ostcertainly designed for overhead rather than spey casting. Hendrickson,Steenrod, and LaBranche used theirs for dry-fly salmon fishing in Canada=.Steenrod is credited with suggesting to Payne that the middle and uppersections of the two-handers would make perfect dry-fly trout rods, andPayne's 8 1/2' df is supposedly based on this. LaBranche's descriptions=offishing one of these rods make it pretty clear that he was casting in aconventional overhead manner. It is also possible that I am misreadingLaBranche, and/or Payne made other two-handers with more speylike tapers=aswell. I believe that the original Hendrickson and LaBranche rods are inmuseum collections somewhere.Not much, but FWIW...---Roger Wiggin, Portland OR Thank you! Sounds like a rather week top to be used as dry - fly rod!When I tried to make my own tapers according to Garrison, my twohanded rods went to soft too. The first rod that I made and was pleased with was from a taper I got from a swedish rodbuilder named Kenneth Bostroem. I hope he doesn=B4t mind me posting it. Here it is... Spey Special 13' # 9-10 ButtDist(mm) - Dia(mm)0 - 14,8055 - 14,70255 - 14,20455 - 13,70655 - 13,20855 - 12,701055 - 12,201300 - 11,50 MiddleDist(mm) - Dia(mm)0 - 11,2560 - 11,00260 - 10,40460 - 10,00660 - 9,40860 - 9,101060 - 8,501305 - 8,25 TopDist(mm) - Dia(mm)0 - 8,25160 - 8,00360 - 7,30560 - 6,60760 - 5,90960 - 5,101160 - 4,301360 - 3,50 The default handle-length is 650mm. Rings could be placed:-13-15-18-20-24- 25-25-28-33-39-59 cm. The problem is to get good, thick-walled bamboo and good ferrules. Please let me know if anyone builds it and tries it. Regards...----------------------------------------------------------------Mikael Marklundmikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm